Friday, 4^th March, 2022

 

The House met at 0900 hours

 

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

 

NATIONAL ANTHEM

 

PRAYER

 

_______

 

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

 

The Vice-President (Mrs Nalumango): Madam Speaker, I rise to give the House some idea of the business it will consider next week.

 

Madam, on Wednesday, 9^th March, 2022, the Business of the House will begin with Questions for Oral Answer. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any.

 

On Thursday, 10^th March, 2022, the Business of the House will commence with the Motion to suspend relevant Standing Orders to enable His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Hakainde Hichilema, to address the House on the Progress Made in the Application of National Values and Principles on Friday, 11^th March, 202. This will be followed by Questions for Oral Answer. Thereafter, the House will consider presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any.

 

Madam Speaker, as already stated, on Friday, 11^th March, 2022, His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Hakainde Hichilema, will address the House on the Progress Made in the Application of National Values and Principles, in accordance with Articles 9 and 86 of the Constitution of Zambia.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

_______

 

THE VICE-PRESIDENT’S QUESTION TIME

 

Mr Mundubile (Mporokoso): Madam Speaker, developing countries use an integrated multi-sectoral approach to deliver development to their people. This model worked very well under the Patriotic Front (PF) Government.

 

Hon. Government Members: Question!

 

Mr Mundubile: Ministries were put in clusters and this gave a clear vision to the people as to what the Government intended to achieve. However, we have noticed that in the current Government, ministries are operating as silos to a point where even on the Floor of the House, we are able to tell from the disjointed statements and responses we are getting from the hon. Ministers, the people on the right.

 

Madam Speaker, this has eroded confidence in most of the citizens, including His Excellency the President, who expressed himself and said he had been let down by his hon. Ministers. The recent one has been Hon. Bob Sichinga, who is a big supporter of the United Party for National Development (UPND) and a former hon. Minister. He recently reported and said:

 

“UPND has no plan … each ministry is struggling on its own.”

 

Madam Speaker, this is something that we on the left agree with. Now, the question to Her Honour the Vice-President is: What is being done to build confidence in the Zambian people, including His Excellency the President, Mr Hakainde Hichilema, and Hon. Bob Sichinga?

 

Madam Speaker, I will now lay the newspaper on the Table for ease of reference.

 

Mr Mundubile laid the paper on the Table.

 

The Vice-President (Mrs Nalumango): Madam Speaker, I am thankful for the question from the hon. Member for Mporokoso and Leader of the Opposition in the House, Hon. Mundubile, who makes several observations, including him reading a headline from one of the national tabloids that alleged that the President, Mr Hakainde Hichilema has said he was disappointed in his hon. Ministers.

 

Madam, to start with, I cannot speak for the media personnel. They know why they put headlines. I thought there is a lot of reading headlines and you make a story out of that. The heading or title does not necessarily follow what is exactly inside.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member of Parliament, the Leader of the Opposition, should have gone deep into the same paper that he had laid on the Table because the President did not say he was disappointed in hon. Ministers. He was referring to professionalism and the lower ranking officials in Government who had not yet caught the vision.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

 

The Vice-President: That is the truth.

 

Hon. Government Members: They were employed by PF!

 

Madam Speaker: Can we have some order! You asked a question, let Her Honour the Vice-President answer it.

 

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I will read this part of what had been laid on the Table.

 

“The issue of professionalism, the issue of unity, inclusion, not exclusion, not segregation, apparently the cadre of staff below yourselves have not caught up with the song.”

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, we are still struggling to ensure that the Civil Service catches up with the vision. We have the vision. Our President is a visionary and we are part of that vision.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

The Vice-President: Therefore, we are running with it. The President did not at any point say, “I am disappointed in your performance.” So, let us not mislead the nation because of what we see.

 

Madam Speaker, this is an issue of perception. How the hon. Member sees our performance and disjointed responses is his perception and opinion.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

The Vice-President: Let us go on. He is probably biased. We are one Government. We know exactly what we want to do. I sit here as the Leader of Government Business in the House and I have an idea of what the answers are or should be to the questions that are raised. If hon. Colleagues on your left choose not to understand and see them as disjointed responses, I do not know whether they want the hon. Minister of Health to give the same answer as the hon. Minister of Education. However, all process go into one system.

 

Madam Speaker, when the hon. Member talks of multi-sectoral integrated development, we are right there. If hon. Members on your left had done so well economically, and he said it worked very well, where are we? How far did we go with that approach that our colleagues used, which we are also using? We are where we are with indebtedness. Let us be ashamed sometimes. Honestly, let us sometimes admit.

 

Interruptions

 

The Vice-President: Why do they think Zambians voted the way they did? Did they hate them?

 

Interruptions

 

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, they did not hate the gentlemen on the left. They are still loved by Zambians, but they performed so badly that they chose to remove them. That is a fact. We have a master plan for development. People keep on talking about having no plan, and I will not talk about somebody who is not even here. Maybe that somebody the hon. Member has referred to, Mr Sichinga, needs to come to my office and tell me his plans. He was part of the previous Government. However, what have they left in the pot? It is indebtedness for Zambians, and today, today, they can say we cannot develop? We must first remove the rubble and the rubble is the debt that they have left for the Zambian people.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I hate to answer like this, but like you say, because the question was so loaded, it is not easy to just be straight like a jacket. We first must remove the rubble and the rubble is the debt that has been left in this country. Zambia is in so much indebtedness and the rubble can include all sorts of wrong things that were done. We have a duty to the Zambia people because they voted us into power. We have a master plan. They voted for us because they saw our manifesto.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

The Vice-President: My son, Kampyongo, do not look at me like that. This is a fact.

 

Laughter

 

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, today, we are working very hard on our own master plan. We are removing the rubble. So, our hon. Colleagues should wait and see because they were in power for ten years and brought the Gross Domestic Product (GDP) to where? They brought everything down from where they found them. We have only been here six months, yet they want to condemn us? No. President Hakainde is very clear. The vision of the United Party for National Development (UPND) is very clear. The master plan, our manifesto, is working and will continue working. The rubble is getting out of the way and the vision is getting clearer. We have done many things. It is still a multi-sectoral and integrated approach. This is the way we are moving.

 

Madam Speaker, I know they are enjoying this because they stepped on my toes, …

 

Laughter

 

The Vice-President: … but this is the reality on the ground. They will not contaminate the minds of Zambians by speaking ill. If one is frustrated with a position he/she wants in Government, he/she should not try to play games like that.

 

Madam Speaker, let me end here. I thank you.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Interruptions

 

Madam Speaker: Order!

 

We are losing time. I can see there is fire in the House.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam Speaker, I assure my mother that we are following and paying attention to her responses.

 

Madam Speaker, last year in December, in responding to my question regarding the prices of basic commodities such as mealie-meal, sugar, saladi –

 

Laughter

 

Hon. Government Members: Saladi?

 

Mr Kampyongo: It is cooking oil. That is how we know it in our kombonis. It is saladi.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Kampyongo: Her Honour the Vice-President assured the nation that when the stocks of traders finished in December, people were going to see a reduction in prices. Therefore, we expected that the food basket would then be affordable and like she has said, the people of Zambia gave the United Party for National Development (UPND) the mandate because of the promises that the Ruling Party gave them regarding commodity prices. We now hear that with the heightened tensions between Russia and Ukraine, commodity prices are likely to go up.

 

Madam Speaker, what is Her Honour the Vice-President’s Government doing –

 

Mr Tayali: Agents!

 

Mr Kampyongo: No, I hope you have removed the agents or middlemen. We have been waiting for you to remove middlemen in the supply chain of fuel.

 

Madam Speaker, what is being done to cushion the poor people who are struggling to put food on their tables? The reason we are seeing some people taking their lives could be failure to put food on the tables of their families.

 

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, let me thank the hon. Member, who is the Opposition Whip, for the observation and question. In his question, the hon. Member has even helped to give the response, sincerely speaking.

 

Madam Speaker, there are things that happen because of ourselves; our own behaviours, plans and actions. There are things that happen elsewhere and the influence cannot be avoided because we are in this world. For instance, the hon. Member has referred to the issue of the Russia-Ukraine conflict. It has an impact on us, whether we like it or not.

 

Madam, this why the current Government said it would remove the middlemen and this is the truth. The hon. Minister of Energy is here. I think he has given a plan which states that we cannot continue to subsidise fuel. What is the implication of this? It means the subsidy will go to other sectors, although our hon. Colleagues are saying the system is disjointed. The subsidy will go to other sectors that cushion the lives of Zambians. That is what it means.

 

Madam Speaker, we are going into a private sector driven supply of fuel so that the national resource can be left to critical sectors that we need, including health and, of course, education. I am sure people are already aware that we have given free education. That is cushioning the lives of our people because the implication is that that money that somebody was supposed to pay has gone into their pocket. That is meant to cushion the situation. We have to understand the situation, but we will continue to observe what goes on.

 

Madam, as the hon. Member has said, I can see the implication of prices going up. There is turbulence, including here in this country, immediately fuel went up. I think even last week I referred to that. We do not refuse when something is happening, but as you can see, last week I said there is stability to a point –

 

Interruptions

 

The Vice-President: Yes, gentlemen, you are leaders of this nation. Let us tell people the truth. The issue is not politicking all the time. We do understand the situation and last week, I did say that inflation has gone down. When we came into office, it was high. Was it at 24 per cent? We found it at 24 per cent or somewhere there, but now the inflation is going down. That is the reality. Now it has moved even to 14 per cent. Can we not appreciate that? Can we not appreciate that the exchange rate has dropped from K23 for US$1 to somewhere stabilising around K14 per US$1.

 

Madam Speaker, those indicators have something to do with the performance of the economy. If we cannot use those indicators, then our hon. Colleagues may have a problem with something else.

 

Yes, Madam Speaker, there are prices that may be going up, but we know where we are going. Even last year, I said we know where we are going because we have a plan for Zambia. We do realise there may be turbulence because of things that are happening worldwide, including where fuel comes from. It will have an impact, but we are ready. We will see something strange coming and then we will have to respond to it. We will go on and we will know how to respond economically to the people of Zambia.

 

I thank you, Madam

 

Mr Chitotela (Pambashe): Madam Speaker, last week, when the Leader of Opposition asked a question concerning the incoherent policy pronouncements by various ministries and hon. Ministers, Her Honour the Vice-President looked for evidence. I want to bring to her attention that last year, when the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning was making a Budget presentation, he announced to the Zambian people that the Government would recruit 44,000 civil servants beginning January. In January, the hon. Minister of Education said that the the Government would not recruit in January and that it was waiting for the commission to be put in place. Less than a week later, the Permanent Secretary (PS) said they would not recruit until they finish building schools. Later on, we saw the United Party for National Development (UPND) Youth Chairman announcing that the Government will recruit police officers in March.

 

Madam, the fundamental shift in the Zambian economy have not pointed towards– I think Dr Situmbeko Musokotwane who is a micro economist understands – recruiting 44,000 Civil Servants, plus the police as announced by the UPND cadre this month. What is this fundamental shift to create a cost centre, as it is called in production and operation management, to create permanent employees in the Public Service of 44,000, plus the recruitment of the police as announced by the UPND official?

 

Madam Speaker, Dr Musokotwane is creating a sinkhole in the economy. Is there a fundamental shift that has created the policy differences that have led the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, the Minister of Education, the PS and another person to say differing things? Is it possible for a commoner to plan, even those who want to get employed in Government? What is the Government’s position? What is causing all these inconsistencies in policy pronouncements by hon. Ministers and senior civil servants at PS and director levels? Is it excitement? What is causing this because it is difficult for the Zambian people to plan and follow clearly where we want to go?

 

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, sometimes when you are listening you do not know what is being asked. In one breath, the hon. Member is saying the Government. In another, he is saying the party, he is saying – I thought we are sitting here as a Government. That is the Government he should speak to.

 

Madam Speaker, you see what this is (showing the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning a copy of the 2022 Budget Speech). I have the speech of the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning with me. I do not remember him talking of 44,000. So, that figure is something strange and I do not know whether any of us said such a thing.

 

Hon. Government Member: 41,000!

 

The Vice-President: Yes, it was 41,000 in total because there were 30,000 teachers and 11,000 health workers.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, yes, recruitments may happen along the way as need arises, but in the speech, even as we were coming in, our plan was to employ 30,000 teachers and 11,000 health workers.

 

Interruptions

 

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I do know if I should hear people speak from their chairs.

 

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, how can Her Honour the Vice-President answer sufficiently so that you understand the answers? You are making too many running commentaries. Should we stop the process or what?

 

Hon. Members: No.

 

Madam Speaker: If you want the process to continue, let us be compliant.

 

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I am sorry I stood while you were talking. Forgive me.

 

Madam, therefore, there is no shift in the issue of employment, but as we go on, we may find that there is a vacuum somewhere and we need to employ. That may happen, but to say that is what we said is not fair. I do not know, maybe one of my hon. Ministers said that and I am not aware that we talked of employing 44,000. We talked of 41,000 in total and this we are going to do.

 

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister did not say in January. It is in the Budget for 2022. It will happen within 2022. I remember one my hon. Ministers here saying money is not released at a go. This is general everywhere and, therefore, we will do just that. After all, job creation is one of the issues on our master plan and, therefore, giving employment to Zambians is what we are committed to. Job creation is part of that economic master plan. There is too much unemployment. This time around, during President Hakainde Hichilema’s term, we shall see jobs created, both formal and informal.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kapyanga (Mpika): Madam Speaker, the people of Mpika wish Her Honour the Vice-President could be allocated more than forty-five minutes.

 

Madam, there is an absence of an economic building plan that should anchor the Budget, the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework and also the Eight National Development Plan. For example, …

 

Mr Mutelo: You are reading?

 

Mr Kapyanga: … Hon. Felix Mutati launched Zambia Plus while Hon. Dr Bwalya Ng’andu launched the Economic Recovery Plan in December 2020. How will this Government build the economy without an economic development plan in place?

 

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member, who wants the Vice-President for more than forty-five minutes, for that question. I am sure we want every hon. Member to participate and hon. Ministers to bring in the issues from their ministries. That is why some of my responses to some questions are short and not comprehensive. I will ask the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to bring the plan that we have so that the hon. Minister –

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

The Vice-President: Let him come and make a ministerial statement. It is a commitment to this House so that people can see we are not just sitting. We are working. That is what we do. I leave it to the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning so that it can be clear and hopefully there will be no more questions.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Kambita (Zambezi East): Madam Speaker, some young entrepreneurs from Mukanda Nkunda in Zambezi East were chatting with me and wondering how they could tap into the initiatives of the New Dawn Administration in that we have seen fruits already manifesting. Deliberate moves like the creation of the Ministry of Small and Medium Enterprise Development are good initiatives.

 

However, they are asking tough questions, to say look, in as far as the Government is concerned and most Governments institutions, an entrepreneur is required to produce several documentation, including experience of how they have dealt with the Government.

 

Madam Speaker, when you look back at the reign of our hon. Colleagues on your left hand side, you will see that none of these entrepreneurs, especially those with the United Party for National Development (UPND) Deoxyribonucleic Acid (DNA) received such an opportunity. How then will it be possible that they will produce that required experiences of having dealt, in business, with the Government.

 

Madam Speaker, therefore, has the Government put across deliberate measures to ensure that these young entrepreneurs are catered for and are deliberately given business, so that we grow this country using that private sector. They are asking whether the Government has got some special package to allow them to do business with it and Government institutions even without experience.

 

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, let me appreciate the preliminary comments that the hon. Member has made that there are already initiatives. He acknowledges the initiatives that the Government has made. I will just say that includes Constituency Development Fund (CDF), where people can tap into because that is the question. How do the young people, woman and everybody, indeed, tap into the initiatives, to be able to empower themselves economically?

 

Madam Speaker, there is CDF, Small and Medium Enterprises (SMEs) and the hon. Member is saying the requirements are too stringent, particularly the issue of experience. I think when you bring these things, it is important that we look back and we see whether there are truly those that impede the young people without experience from tapping into. We do not want to say experience should be the number one thing because there is a starting point. Therefore, in the regulations that have been put in place, if they have such impediments, we have to look at them. Otherwise, we will empower somebody who has had wrong experiences and that person will continue with the wrong experiences in the manner they did things.

 

Madam Speaker, I think it is important that we look at those particular issues. The hon. Member may wish, for example, to engage the SMEs and see where these issues that are impeding the new entrants are. I encourage every Zambian to venture into this. Anything that stops and brings an obstacle must be dealt with.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Mr Sampa (Matero): Madam Speaker, I assure Her Honour the Vice-President that my question will have no preamble, no joke and no spice pantu efiletelela, I will go straight to the point.

 

Madam Speaker, the Simon Mwewa Market in Lusaka has been under construction in the last four years so that it can absorb the street vendors out of Lumumba, Freedom Way and Chachacha roads. What has caused the delay in opening it and when is the market likely to be opened?

 

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member still gave the preamble and I think I appreciate it. That construction has been going on for some time. This must open soonest. We have to simply agree with the people who were contracted to construct so that there is a proper hand over and Simon Mwewa Market can become functional and have people go into the market.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Madam Speaker, people are anxiously waiting for the final release of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) allocation, which fund is responsible for bursaries and trades schools. So far, the amount that we have received is far below the requirement. When are we likely to receive the whole bunch for bursaries, which will cater for all the students in the district and Kalabo Central Constituency?

 

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member does acknowledge that part of this fund has been released, I hope I heard him fine, which was up to March. However, there will be another release very soon. Like we have said, principally, that money does not come at a go. Similarly, bursaries are also not paid at a go. So, children, students and pupils go to school according to terms. Therefore, some more money will be released. I think it is supposed to be quarterly.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Mr Masauso Tembo (Sinda): Madam Speaker, transporters who ferried farming inputs from 2019, 2020 and 2021 have up to now not been paid by the Government. When is this New Dawn Government going to pay the transports because they are starving?

 

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, it is also important to note, like the hon. Member has done, that transporters have not been paid. I think it is important to note that. He has not said 2021 or 2022. That means we have accumulated a lot of debt over time. However, we are planners. We are planning and the disbursement will soon start. I believe the hon. Minister of Agriculture will, not too long from now, come and issue a statement of the plan of dismantling this debt we owe as the Government to the transporters

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Mr Mushanga (Bwacha): Madam Speaker, happy Women’s Day to the women of Bwacha and the country at large.

 

Madam Speaker, we have seen many young girls, as young as nine to thirteen years in Bwacha Parliamentary Constituency and the country at large getting pregnant. This evidence is there through the Ministry of Education. We have seen girls coming from very strong Christian and other faith families becoming pregnant and being impregnated by there their peers and sometimes, by those who are older than them.

 

Madam Speaker, what is the Government’s clear policy on sexual reproductive health and comprehensive sexuality education in the schools to our school going children?

 

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Bwacha. Good morning, Sir.

 

Madam Speaker, if I remember correctly, it is not long ago when the hon. Minister of Community Development and Social Services came to respond to a question about that. I think the question must have come from the hon. Member for Chitambo. I sit here and remember things. If the hon. Member was in the House, he could have heard many other initiatives that the Government is putting in place to try and tackle pregnancies and early marriages. I think that came through.

 

Madam Speaker, the Government has many initiatives that it is putting in place to end this. Basically, a nine-year-old or thirteen-year-old getting pregnant means there is a crime there and the Penal Code must deal with that. The law must deal with that because you cannot say that this is normal. I do not think another nine-year-old boy would impregnate a nine-year-old girl. There is some man who is a criminal somewhere and therefore, the law should take its course.

 

Madam Speaker, when the hon. Minister of Community Development and Social Services stood before the House here, she referred to a Bill that is supposed to come to the House. The Bill, which is called the Child Code Bill, will deal with many of these issues that pertain to children, including people who molest or defile children.

 

Madam Speaker, the Government is not sitting back. Within that law and other laws, there are ways that have been provided for to protect children from this, including the family itself. The hon. Member talked of a Christian family. How does a nine-year old child get pregnant from such a family? I think generally, it speaks to the break down in our relationships in homes, communities and societies, because even in times of old, I do not think people married nine-year-olds, even under tradition. It just shows that we have broken down as a people. Therefore, initiatives are being taken to look after these vulnerable children.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Simushi (Sikongo): Madam Speaker, the revelations that have been made on the Floor of this august House by the hon. Ministers under the New Dawn Administration regarding the damage that has been inflicted on this country by the then Patriotic Front (PF) regime, that is, economically, politically, socially and environmentally, is unprecedented in the history of this country. In my view, these atrocities amount to crimes against humanity.

 

Madam Speaker, my question to Her Honour he Vice-President is: Do we not have statutes either domestically or internationally that the New Dawn Administration can use to bring to account the Executive of the PF regime under the leadership of Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, to account for the crimes it has done not as individuals but as a collective unit?

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, sometimes you really wonder who you should be as Vice-President. Maybe, I should go and study many things. Unprecedented damage; I think that is the perception of the Zambian people.

 

Hon. PF. Members: No!

 

The Vice-President: I am not saying it is a fact because if I say it is a fact, you will say “bring evidence.” That is why I am saying it is a perception. You heard “the perception.” I am also clever, Madam. The perception that, ...

 

Interruptions

 

Madam Speaker: Order!

 

The Vice-President: ... indeed, there has been damage to the economy socially, because if we talk of corruption that is a socio-economic issue. Except the question is: Do we not have laws nationally and internationally? On the last point, to arrest people and imprison them collectively, you will have to charge them with the same offence. I may not fully understand the law. I think that would become very difficult. We have laws in the country. That is true. We have statutes that should be followed in order to follow the individuals who may have been part of these atrocities as referred to. Except, this Government says “we will govern by the rule of law.” Therefore, proper investigations must be done and the court processes must go on using the laws that we have. We have plenty of laws that can help.

 

Madam Speaker, hon. Colleagues, for example, I know that you do not have to have property and not prove how you acquired it. You can be followed. Just go and prove in the court how you acquired that property. So, we have laws that should take care of that. Even though I am not an officer of the court, I can say that financial crimes are not the easiest to prosecute. This is because there is too much entanglement. Too many people get involved and it becomes so difficult to prosecute effectively and convict. However, for me, the appeal to hon. Colleagues who were involved in this is: that money will not take you anywhere if it is economic. Just surrender it.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

The Vice-President: Madam, there is room in the law under the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) that you can bring yourself to the commission and then the State will handle your case properly and you may not be prosecuted. However, if you bring K50 million out of the K100 million, hon. Leader of the Opposition –

 

Laughter

 

The Vice-President: If you have K100 million, I am just using a figure because people have billions, and you only give us K50 million, and you hide the other half, when we find that K50 million, we will prosecute you.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

The Vice-President: That is what the law implies. So, my appeal is that we do understand.

 

Madam Speaker, I will say this. When you talk of this damage done economically and socially, – There was even an issue of what I will say is lawfare today, which makes things difficult to prosecute and get justice. So, we must really look at the law that protects me rather than making me a proper public figure.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Mr Mung’andu (Chama South): Madam Speaker, –

 

Interruptions

 

Madam Speaker: Can we have some order!

 

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Speaker, from time immemorial, from the time we got independence, we have always been a non-aligned country, meaning when there is conflict in this world, this country does not take sides. We have learnt that your permanent representative at the United Nations (UN) voted with the West, that is, America, Britain and the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation (NATO) allied forces –

 

Madam Speaker: Order!

 

The hon. Member’s time expired.

 

______

 

MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

 

SOCIAL CASH TRANSFER

 

The Minister of Community Development and Social Services (Ms Mwamba): Madam Speaker thank very much for granting me this opportunity to give a ministerial statement on the major programmes that my ministry is implementing in order to address poverty and vulnerability among our citizens, which is the Social Cash Transfer (SCT).

 

Madam, the SCT Programme is a key social protection intervention. The programme targets the vulnerable, incapacitated people in the community in order to alleviate suffering and deprivation. This programme has, overtime, grown both in size and scale. There are currently 973,323 beneficiary households, which translates into 5,061,280 Zambians on the programme in all 116 districts.

 

Madam Speaker, I inform this august House that in the recent past, the programme had faced a number of challenges which ranged from withdrawal of funding by the donors in 2018 to inadequate systems to meet the dictates or the changing times. I am, however, happy to report that today, the co-operating partners are supporting the implementation of the programme. The Government, through my ministry, has taken a number of steps to strengthen the delivery system of the programme in order to enhance accountability, transparency as well as cement support and beneficiary acceptability. It is expected that the systems put in place will enhance programme credibility and sustainability.

 

Madam Speaker, in order to strengthen and streamline the management of the SCT Programme, my ministry is putting in place the following measures:

 

Digitalisation of the Payment Process

 

Madam Speaker, since inception, the SCT Programme has been making payments to beneficiaries using a manual system. This has been done through pay point managers (PPMs) who are Government employees who have been given an extra responsibility to disburse funds to SCT beneficiaries. With the advancement in technology, my ministry is deploying a payment system that will see payments to beneficiaries made through two modalities. These are urban payments and rural payments. Urban payments will be done through payment service providers while rural payments will continue to be done through PPM.

 

Payment Service Providers (PSPs)

 

Madam Speaker, the Payment Service Providers (PSP) approach is the disbursement of funds to beneficiaries by directly crediting the beneficiary’s bank or mobile account.

 

Pay Point Managers (PPMs)

 

Madam Speaker, the PPMs approach are payments made manually to beneficiaries that are unbanked and have no access to telephone communication. This process will progressively be automated in consultation with the Zambia Information and Communication Technology Authority (ZICTA) Smart Zambia Institute and other stakeholders. The PPMs are linked to the Zambia Integrated Social Protection Information System (ZISPIS) and all transactions are automated using both online and offline mode applications of the system.

 

Targeting of Beneficiaries

 

Madam Speaker, the selection and identification process of beneficiary households to be enrolled on the SCT Programme has been improved to ensure programme credibility with the right people being on the programme as per guidelines. To this effect, the programme engages the services of public service workers to undertake this important exercise instead of Community Welfare Assistant Committee (CWAC) members who were being used before. This represents a major shift in the targeting process of ensuring that only deserving households are listed as beneficiaries.

 

The Zambia Integrated Social Protection Information System (ZISPIS)

 

Madam Speaker, in order to enhance transparency and accountability in the administration of the SCT Programme, priority has been placed on the implementation of the ZISPIS. So far, all beneficiary data management functions of ZISPIS have been completed and are being used. Consequently, all beneficiaries who were eligible, including those not meeting the right requirement and criteria have since been cleaned out and removed from the programme.

 

Madam Speaker, additionally, the system is now capable of detecting duplicate beneficiary records, including multiple registrations across districts and provinces. Inadequate tracking capabilities resulting into inability to detect duplicates and multiple registrations were noticeable weaknesses on the old SCT management information system.

 

Madam Speaker, Smart Zambia Institute has since given a technical clearance of the ZISPIS for piloting in Kitwe and Namwala districts. The ministry now awaits approval, by the Secretary to the Treasury to commence piloting earmarked for January/February, 2022.

 

Grievance Redress Mechanism

 

Madam Speaker, the ministry has put in place a Grievance Redress Mechanism (GRM) as a platform to provide timely feedback to community members and stakeholders over any concerns or complaints that they may have relating to the SCT Programme. This is of paramount importance. There are three channels for beneficiaries and other stakeholders to register their complaints. These are:

 

1. website platform - the online form is accessible on the ministerial website. Stakeholders have this option to lodge their complaints which once entered, are immediately uploaded onto the ZISPIS GRM module;
2. mobile application (those using smart phones) - under this channel, the GRM form is accessed on a Smartphone application of District Social Welfare Officers and pay point managers within villages and communities. Complaints are entered through this channel are immediately uploaded into the MIS GRM module;
3. community boxes - Through this option, paper grievance forms are made available at different places such as schools, health centres, chiefs’ palaces, headmen’s homes, churches and other public places within respective communities. Once a form is filled in, it is dropped into the community boxes which are later transferred to the district social welfare offices.

 

The grievances received through any of the above channels are responded to in a systematic manner. Provision of this platform is therefore imperative in making the SCT Programme more responsive to the needs of the most poor and vulnerable citizens as well as other stakeholders and provides a medium for feedback and further programme improvement.

 

Strengthening, Monitoring and Evaluation

 

Madam Speaker, the ministry has embarked on strengthening and evaluation functions of the SCT Programme by developing an electronic website monitoring evaluation system to track any performance indicators. This will enable the Government to record changes that take place within the household at different intervals. These records will better inform programming including graduation and linkages of beneficiaries to other interventions.

 

Scaling Up of the Social Cash Transfer

 

Madam Speaker, as I have already informed this august House, the SCT Programme has continued to grow in scope and coverage since its inception in Kalomo District in 2003. The programme, to date, has been scaled up to almost 30 per cent of the Zambian population and about 50 per cent of the extremely poor in the country. In 2021, the programme caseload was scaled up to 973,323 beneficiary households. By the end of 2022, the programme is targeting to reach 1.1 million vulnerable and incapacitated households in all the 116 districts. 8.9 per cent of the programme caseload are households with persons with disabilities.

 

Madam Speaker, in terms of the transfer value, households without members with disabilities receive K200 per month per household paid every two months at K400 while households with a member with severe disability receive k400 per month per household paid every two months at K800.

 

Madam Speaker, as I conclude, I submit that SCT is an important intervention and tool for reducing poverty and vulnerability. I, therefore, urge my fellow hon. Members of Parliament to take keen interest in this programme and sensitise their people on the availability of benefits and guidelines of this programme. The guidelines may be obtained from both the provincial and district administration. Furthermore, these guidelines can be accessed online on the ministerial website and copies will be placed in the pigeon holes of individual hon. Members of Parliament.

 

I thank you and may God bless you all.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, you are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the ministerial statement given by the hon. Minister of Community Development and Social Services.

 

Mr J. Chibuye (Roan): Madam Speaker –

 

Mr Chitotela: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam Speaker: A point of order has been requested by the hon. Member for Pambashe. What is the point of order and on whom are you raising that point of order?

 

Mr Chitotela: Madam Speaker, I am raising a point of order pursuant to Standing Order 65. As you may be aware, we have agreed not to raise points of order during The Vice-President’s Question Time. This point of order is on Her Honour the Vice-President.

 

Madam Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Member, we have already passed that item. So, your point of order has come too late.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Interruptions

 

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Pambashe, you may raise your point of order.

 

Mr Chitotela: Madam Speaker, Standing Order 65 is very instructive and when I raised a question, Her Honour the Vice-President was sitting next to the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning. I want to quote from the 2022 Budget Speech presented by Dr Situmbeko Musokotwane on 29^th October, 2021. On page 37, paragraph 171, the heading states “Keeping the Campaign Promises” and it reads as follows:

 

“Madam Speaker, let me now turn to the important issue of employment, a vexing problem especially among our youths. Jobs are created in the public and in the private sector. Government will create a minimum of 44,000 jobs in 2022 through the recruitment of teachers, healthcare personnel and others.”

 

Mr Chitotela: Further, Madam Speaker, if you listened to the hon. Minister when he was talking about employment related to teachers, he said:

 

“Madam Speaker, for the first time in the history of this country, we will recruit 30,000 teachers  ... and the New Dawn Government has already found the money.”

 

Madam Speaker, I have a lot of respect for Dr Musokotwane. He is my former admiration lecturer in economics and he is a micro-economist. Is Her Honour the Vice-President, therefore, in order to mislead the nation and this House by even holding the Budget Speech in her hands and saying, “No, we never promised 44,000 jobs. We only talked about 11,000 and 30,000 jobs”? I seek your serious ruling and I will lay this document on the Table.

 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Chitotela laid the paper on the Table.

 

Madam Speaker: You may go ahead although that is part of the documentation that is already before the House. I thought I heard 41,000.

 

Mr Chitotela: Madam Speaker, it is 44,000.

 

Madam Speaker: Anyway, with regard to the numbers whether 41,000 or 44,000, maybe it was a mistake in terms of numbers. However, to that extent, as long as there were different numbers that were given, then Her Honour the Vice-President was out of order.

 

Let us make progress. The hon. Member for Roan may continue.

 

Mr J. Chibuye (Roan): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has attributed to the mode that is going to be used in dispersing these funds both in the rural and urban areas.

 

Madam Speaker, I am concerned about what happened last year where one of the payment managers was robbed and murdered. Could the hon. Minister attest to what modalities, in terms of security checks have been put in place to ensure the handlers of these monies, especially in the rural areas, are protected adequately?

 

Ms Mwamba: Madam Speaker, it is coming from such incidences that we are enhancing the payment modules such as paying through service providers such as banks and telephone mobile service providers. With regards to security in rural areas, we are working with the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security to provide security to our officers as they go to disburse funds to beneficiaries.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Fube (Chilubi): Madam Speaker, I appreciate the hon. Minister informing us of the guidelines and where to access them. The guidelines are already distributed in the pigeon holes and I am one of the beneficiaries.

 

Madam Speaker, I am, therefore, asking this question based on the fact that I have read those guidelines that have already been placed in the pigeon holes. If I got the hon. Minister correctly, she did talk about replacing the Community Welfare Assistant Committees (CWACs) with some mode of some sort. The President was candid enough and very clear about non involvement of cadres in Government programmes. Could she confirm that now the new mode is supplying a list of United Party for National Development (UPND) cadres to the District Community Welfare Assistant to form a committee that has replaced the community welfare assistant as it is a practice in what is going on in some part of the country.

 

Ms D. Mwamba: Madam Speaker, in early January, we started the election of the CWACs across the country. All hon. Members of Parliament in this august House were informed about this exercise and the guidelines were very clear. We said, and I will say it here again, that there shall be no politics in this exercise and SCT Programme.

 

Madam Speaker, we encouraged all hon. Members of Parliament to take keen interest in the selection and election of CWAC members regardless of which political party you are coming from. If the hon. Member for Chilubi has any information of any committee that has politicians on it, whether from the Ruling or Opposition Party, he must please let us know. Let me know and we will take action.

 

Madam Speaker, I want to further advise my hon. Colleagues here that we should desist from putting politics in the programmes because most of the programmes that we are running are for the extremely poor and vulnerable citizens in this country.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Mubika (Shangombo): Madam Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister of Community Development and Social Services as to what led to the donors in 2018 under the Patriotic Front (PF) Government to withdraw funding to this noble cause.

 

Ms D. Mwamba: Madam Speaker, in 2017/2019, the SCT Programme was mismanaged by the previous regime and previous hon. Minister in that ministry. This case was escalated and it went to court and we saw the former hon. Minister serving a jail sentence because of the mismanagement of the SCT funds meant for the poor and vulnerable.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Rev. Katuta: Madam Speaker, in my language, we say uushitasha mwana wandoshi and because I am an Independent Member of Parliament, I speak with an independent mind. I say good when something is good and bad when it is bad. I want to say well done for digitalising –

 

Laughter

 

Rev. Katuta: – I am Bemba, so that word. – I want to say well done to the Government because this has been a pain to the people of Chienge though I do not know if we are going to be paid in that manner.

 

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister talked of co-operating partners. Who are these co-operating partners? I ask because the previous regime used the Social Cash Transfer (SCT) as a campaign or political tool and told the people that it was the Government distributing the money.

 

Madam Speaker, this current Government should not use this programme as campaign tool and make it look like its members are taking the money out of their pockets and giving it to people. So, who are the co-operating partners helping the Zambian people with this cash transfer programme?

 

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam.

 

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order citing Standing Order 65 (1) (b).

 

Madam Speaker, I respect my dear sister, the hon. Member who has just posed a question. However, is she in order to come and make allegations here such as the previous regime was using the Social Cash Transfer Scheme as a political tool when in actual sense, this is a social safety net programme which was implemented by our Government to demonstrate and show that we were a pro-poor Government?

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, I seek your protection. There are so many armchair debaters.

 

Madam Speaker: Can we have some order, so that I can understand the point of order!

 

Mr Kampyongo: Is the hon. Member, therefore, in order to come and make such allegations without laying some evidence on the Floor, as per requirement of our Standing Orders? I seek your serious ruling before the hon. Minister responds, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam Speaker: The hon. Member for Chienge has not laid any evidence to support what she has alleged, unless that is just her opinion. However, if it is stated as a matter of fact, then the hon. Member has not laid any evidence on the Table. Hon. Member of Parliament for Chienge, can you substantiate your allegation.

 

Rev. Katuta: Madam Speaker, during the 12^th August, 2021 elections, the Patriotic Front (PF) would sit in front of every polling station in Chienge, telling people that the Social Cash Transfer Scheme was their money and if they did not vote for PF, then they would not be getting this money.

 

Interruptions

 

Rev. Katuta: So, to substantiate that will be a bit of a challenge.

 

Madam Speaker: Order!

 

Rev. Katuta: However, I have some videos on my phone. If that can be allowed, I can bring them.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Interruptions

 

Madam Speaker: Order!

 

This is what I sometimes talk about; loaded questions asking for loaded answers. We are going to drift into some political debate now. So, let us stick to the facts. I believe that is the opinion or what the hon. Member for Chienge witnessed herself, whether she has evidence or not, but she says she has videos. Maybe, we must leave that to a competent court of law, which can examine that evidence. So, let us not bring in political debates as we debate the issues before this honourable House. Otherwise, the debates will deteriorate into something else.

 

Hon. Minister of Community Development and Social Services, you may respond to the question that was raised.

 

Ms D. Mwamba: Madam Speaker, I thank my sister, the hon. Member of Parliament for Chienge for the support. It is truly appreciated.

 

Madam, indeed, the Social Cash Transfer Programme was politicised, previously.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms D. Mwamba: Going forward, we are saying no more politics in this programme or any other programmes for the poor and the vulnerable in society. This practice will begin with me as hon. Minister of Community Development and Social Services by embracing every hon. Member of Parliament when it comes to implementation of social protection programmes. My office is open to all hon. Members of Parliament to come and discuss issues pertaining to social protection programmes for our people; the people of Zambia who voted for the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government.

 

Madam Speaker, currently, Sweden and the World Bank are our co-operating partners.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Wamunyima (Nalolo): Madam Speaker, I equally commend the hon. Minister for her work because I attended a sensitisation workshop in my constituency a month ago with her officers; the Councillors and the District Commissioners (DCs). So, I am alive to the fact that the narrative on the Social Cash Transfer Scheme has changed.

 

Madam Speaker, one of the challenges that came out of that workshop, which rural constituencies like mine face, is that beneficiaries are few because people do not have National Registration Cards (NRCs) given the distances in the constituency. Is the hon. Minister willing to engage her counterpart, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security to expedite registration for would-be beneficiaries who may have lost their NRCs? As the hon. Minister may be aware, in our constituencies, for you to get to where you must register, it can even take you two days because you have to go round and round or you have to use water transport. I submit that the hon. Minister engages her counterpart, or is she willing to do so?

 

Ms D. Mwamba: Madam Speaker, indeed, that is a challenge and a barrier to many of our vulnerable people accessing the programmes. That challenge is not only in Nalolo. The hon. Member will be surprised to learn that that challenge is also prevailing even here in Lusaka Central. We had about three elderly persons with disabilities who did not have NRCs. Therefore, we have told all our District Social Welfare Officers (DSWOs) to retarget and find where these people are and I am working with my counterpart in the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security to ensure that these intended clients get NRCs as soon as possible.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Mr C. Mpundu (Chembe): Madam Speaker, as the hon. Minister may be aware, vulnerability is high in rural areas and that is where you will find acute poverty. What mechanism has been put in place, especially that most of these rural areas are currently not accessible? Places like Chembe, Kalasa Kando, Mwami and Lumbu are totally cut off. It does not matter whether it is in the rainy season or even in the dry season. What mechanism has been put in place to ensure that the people of Zambia in these places can also access these funds on time?

 

Madam Speaker addressed the hon. Minister of Community Development and Social Services as the hon. Minister of Community Development and Social Security.

 

Ms D. Mwamba: Madam Speaker, I heard social security.

 

Laughter

 

Madam Speaker: Did I say social security? Sorry, social services. I apologise.

 

Ms D. Mwamba: Madam Speaker, I have been to Chembe and I understand what the hon. Member is talking about. When I delivered the ministerial statement, I indicated that we are scaling up to 1.1 million beneficiaries because I know that out there, we have over 100,000 people who are supposed to be on the programme but are not due to barriers such as getting to them. I promise that my ministry is looking into that. We are also engaging my counterparts such as the hon. Minister of Transport and Logistics and the hon. Minister of Water Development and Sanitation to see what we can do to get to our people. So, that is top on the agenda.

 

Madam, as a ministry, we are aware that that is a very big problem, not only in Chembe but also in that corridor in Milenge, Lunga and Samfya.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Lubozha (Lufubu): Madam Speaker, there are times when the beneficiaries do not receive their money and go in arrears for certain periods. However, when that period passes and the money is available, they are not paid their arrears. Instead, they are paid for that particular month. What happens to the money which the beneficiaries are owed and should have been paid in the previous period? I ask this because the officers responsible only come to pay for the current month.

 

Ms D. Mwamba: Madam Speaker, when I was giving the statement, I stated that there were challenges previously and that we are working at improving those challenges. What the hon. Member of Parliament for Chifubu has brought up in this House is one such challenge. Speaking on the timely disbursement of funds, from October last year to date, the disbursement has been done on time. Going forward, that is how it will be done.

 

Madam, what used to happen is now water under the bridge. The fact is that under the New Dawn Government, we have improved on the delivery system. That is where our focus should be and to make sure that we even do better. However, what used to happen previously, I hear, is that they used to redeposit the funds to beneficiaries.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Mwambazi (Bwana Mkubwa): Madam Speaker, the Government spends a lot of money on the Social Cash Transfer Scheme and this money, in turn, remains with the service providers such as Zoona and others who are supposed to transmit to the people. As we speak, there is a lot of money is being kept by these service providers. What is the ministry doing to ensure that these monies are rerouted to the ministry and paid to would-be beneficiaries?

 

Ms D. Mwamba: Madam Speaker, indeed, previously, service providers would hold on to money for months. However, I assure this House that at the close of the year; 31^st December, 2021, we made sure that all the money that was with service providers such as Zoona was given back the ministry and immediately disbursed before 31^st December to the beneficiaries for previous payments that were not disbursed.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Chala (Chipili) (dressed in a colourful suit): Madam Speaker, …

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Chala: … what is the number of beneficiaries from each province? We want to know to in order ensure that one province does not have a lion’s share?

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Interruptions

 

Madam Speaker: Order! Thou shall not admire another man’s suit.

 

Laughter

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms D. Mwamba: Madam Speaker, I have the document in front of me, but I did not come with my reading glasses –

 

Eng. Milupi handed Ms Mwamba his reading glasses.

 

Laughter

 

Ms D. Mwamba: Madam Speaker, the Northern Province had 103,542 while Luapula Province had the highest number based on the 2021 national caseload with 125,296. Muchinga Province had 68,841, the Eastern Province had 129,583, Lusaka Province had 52,153, the Southern Province had 82,302 and the Western Province had 11,000.

 

Hon. Government Members: Ah!

 

Ms D. Mwamba: The North-Western Province had 73,581 and the Copperbelt Province had 68,296.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Kapyanga: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam Speaker: I saw a point of order. It has been withdrawn.

 

Hon. Member for Shiwang’andu, do you have a point of order? It is – Oh Mpika, sorry. You must be on my lips.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Kapyanga: Madam Speaker, I rise on a very serious point of order pursuant to Standing Order 206 which talks about the dress code for hon. Members. The official dress code for a female hon. Member shall be a formal dress, formal executive suit, either with a skirt below the knee or a pair of trousers.

 

Madam, is the Deputy Chief Whip in order to come to Parliament in her party regalia? I seek your serious ruling, Madam Speaker.

 

Laughter

 

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Kapyanga –

 

Laughter

 

Madam Speaker: Sorry, I have introduced another constituency. Hon. Member for Mpika, please allow the honourable ladies to dress as they please. This is women’s month.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Business was suspended from 1040 hours until 1100 hours.

 

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

 

Ms Mulenga (Kalulushi): Madam Speaker, before business was suspended, I listened to the hon. Minister’s statement very carefully. For me, it is an acknowledgement that the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services is one of the very few ministries which have taken up what the Patriotic Front (PF), its predecessors, had actually done and it has changed nothing.

 

Madam Speaker, I heard about the 900,000 beneficiaries, who were under the PF administration. The implementation of the Zambia Integrated Social Protection Information System (ZISPIS), the security in terms of how the disbursement of the money to the beneficiaries would be was done under the PF Government. I am glad that these systems are still intact. In line with the former President, Edgar Lungu’s commitment to zero tolerance to corruption, under the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services, we saw an hon. Minister get prosecuted under the previous administration and donors getting back on board.

 

Madam Speaker, it is worrying that currently, in the election of Community Welfare Assistance Committees (CWACs), we have seen the 12^th August re-elections. If this is not looked into seriously, we will have the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services and the district officers failing to conduct their job because it has been overtaken by cadres. This is because they assumed the announcement of these elections was more a United Party for National Development (UPND) thing, which is very concerning and worrying.

 

Madam Speaker what is the ministry doing about this? Could the ministry get to the ground and revisit these elections or there will be serious repercussions in terms of administration and

identification of real beneficiaries.

 

Ms D. Mwamba: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Kalulushi, my colleague, the former Minister of Community Development and Social Services who is also my young sister. Indeed, most of these programmes, if not all, that we are implementing under my ministry were formulated in the past. I do appreciate the efforts made by all those who served in that office.

 

Madam Speaker, going forward, we are talking about enhancement and strengthening of transparency and accountability. That is why we have gone digital. It is one of the tools to enhance accountability and avoid leakages of funds.

 

Madam Speaker, regarding the election of Community Welfare Assistance Committees (CWACs), for the first time, the Ministry of Community Development and Social Servicers reached out to all hon. Members of Parliament to get involved and make sure that there is sanity before, during and after the elections.

 

Madam Speaker, my office has not received any report of intimidation or of one political party hijacking the process. When I was giving the statement, I did state that elections for CWACs are held every three years. So, there was no political motivation to hold the elections now. In fact, they were overdue. They could have been conducted mid last year, but I think because of the political activities last year, these elections could not be held.

 

Madam Speaker, however, going forward, should I have any information and evidence that politicians are getting involved in the selection of CWACs, we will take action. So, former hon. Minister of Community Development and Social Services, you are free to visit your former office, give me the information that you might have and we will work on it.

 

Madam Speaker, I want to take this rare opportunity to assure my hon. Colleagues in this august House that that ministry is like a calling. It is an emotional ministry. It deals with very poor people, extremely poor and vulnerable people. Therefore, despite being a United Party for National Development (UPND) elected or nominated Member of Parliament and I am here, the selection of beneficiaries for all the programmes knows no colour. There are no politics involved. So, where and whenever I get information and evidence that greedy politicians want to hijack any of those programmes, we will take appropriate action.

 

Madam Speaker the co-operating partners working with the ministry on this programme are the World Bank, the United Nations International Children's Emergency Fund (UNICEF) and United States Agency for International Development (USAID) through its Adolescents and Children HIV Incidence Reduction, Empowerment and Virus Elimination Project (ACHIEVE) and Britain, Foreign & Commonwealth Office (FCO) formally the United Kingdom (UK), Department for International Development (DFID) are helping us with the implementation of the social protection programme.

 

_______

 

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

 

HIPPOS TERRORISING VILLAGERS IN MANTHEPA AREA

 

266. Mr Mtayachalo (Chama North) asked the Minister of Tourism:

 

1. whether the Government is aware that hippos are terrorising villagers in Manthepa area in Chama North Parliamentary Constituency and have so far destroyed over 20 hectares of maize fields;
2. if so, what urgent measures is the Government taking to stop the destruction and ensure food security for the affected villagers; and
3. what urgent measures are being taken to avert loss of human life due to the human/animal conflict in the area.

 

The Minister of Tourism (Mr Sikumba): Madam Speaker, the Government received a report from Manthepa and Chali areas of Chief Kambombo which indicated that hippos destroyed six fields along the Lubumbu River. Preliminary investigations from the spools in the affected areas indicate that a solitary hippo is responsible for the damage. Following the report, officers were deployed on 24^th February, 2022 to manage the situation. Due to the high water levels in the Lubumbu River, the hippo has not been sighted to date. Officers remain on the ground to assist the community to avert further destruction of the fields and ensure food security is not compromised.

 

Madam Speaker, with regard to averting loss of life due to human-animal conflict, the Government, in collaboration with co-operating partners, has continued to deploy Wildlife Police Officers popularly known as (WPOs) and community scouts to scare off these animals using conventional methods such as chilli powder and fireworks. Further, the Government is working with partners to engage communities in agriculture practices that do not conflict with wildlife conservation. The communities are also being sensitised against settling or cultivating near the banks of the Luangwa and the Lubumbu River to prevent human-animal conflict.

 

Madam Speaker, the Government will in the medium-term, focus on implementing long-term solutions to the issue of human-animal conflict, and the following measures have been proposed:

 

1. promotion of consistent formulation and implementation of general management plans so as to provide for land use strategies in wildlife protected areas;
2. enhancing community-based wildlife management. This entails the Government partnering with Community Resource Boards (CRBs) and Village Action Groups to co-manage the wildlife resource in a manner that drastically reduces the incidences of human-animal conflict; and
3. amending the Wildlife Act to strengthen the Wildlife Management policy.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Mr Mtayachalo: Madam Speaker, the issue of man-animal conflict has been escalating not only in Chama North but in Chama South as well. By yesterday, more fields were destroyed. Is the Government going to compensate farmers whose maize fields have been destroyed by the hippo.

 

Mr Sikumba: Madam Speaker, if I recall very well, sometime last year, in October, I, as tourism Minister, stood on the Floor and made a ministerial statement regarding human-wildlife conflict. It was very clear during my ministerial statement that the Government has already set in motion issues on how to deal with human-animal conflict. I can repeat the measures I spoke about. Among them was the improvement of law enforcement in wildlife habitat protection. We are engaging a number of partners around the twenty national parks and thirty-six Game Management Areas (GMAs) to manage human-animal conflict. The hon. Member spoke about Chama South. Yes, Chama South already has a partner under the name of Frankfurt Zoological Society which is assisting us to manage humans and animals to co-exist.

 

Madam Speaker, the second issue that I brought up was to improve community-based wildlife management. We do realise that we are endowed with flora and fauna. That is our resource. So, at any given time, we would like to engage the various hon. Members of Parliament in those areas which have animal habitats to co-exist because those are the animals that we are going to be selling as tourist attractions. Those are the animals that we are going to be living with so that we earn as much foreign exchange as we possibly can within the tourism sector.

 

Madam Speaker, I also spoke about strategising, planning and implementation of general management plans. We have had many challenges with regard to land use policy. That is exactly what we are telling our hon. Colleagues. They should ensure that certain protected areas are not encroached on by having fields here. That in itself will give us a problem. This is why now we are hearing our hon. Colleague from Chama North requesting the Government to compensate the people there when in actual sense, most of these places where people are growing their crops are protected areas.

 

Madam Speaker, last but not least, I spoke about improving the policy and legislative landscape for sustainable wildlife management. That policy is going to come in the House. It will look at how best we are going to amend the Wildlife Act to make it very sustainable to manage that. So, in terms of whether the Government will compensate the people there, I might not be well versed to talk about how we manage that. However, I can safely tell you that once investigations are done regarding the area that has been affected, we should be able to give you a comprehensive statement on that.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Mung’andu (Chama South): Madam Speaker, let me put on record that our people in Chama do not farm in protected areas. It is against the law to do that. Our people farm in Game Management Areas (GMAs). The entire district is a GMA. There is a problem of hippos in Chama North and it is worse in Chama South where we have hippos, elephants, as well as kudus. Kudus eat cotton, which is a cash crop for our people.

 

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has mentioned partners in this issue such as the Frankfurt Zoological Society. We are very grateful for its help in mitigating these challenges, but the most important stakeholder is the Community Resource Boards (CRBs). The income for CRBs comes from safari hunting. However, up to now, we do not know whether the safari hunting operators who are supposed to be moving on the ground by the end of this month are going to come or not. This means there will be no protection of our people and there will be no income to pay the village scouts. The hon. Minister knows that if there are two Department of National Parks and Wildlife (DNPW) employees in each camp, ten will be village scouts. When is the Government going to conclude the matter of safari hunting concessions so that our people are not affected further by these animals?

 

Mr Sikumba: Madam Speaker, I did realise that the hon. Member for Chama South was going to sneak in that particular question. In any case, we are a new Government. When we came into Government, we needed to do a complete audit of the misdemeanours that were happening within the Government.

 

Madam, in terms of misdemeanours, one of them is the issue of hunting concessions. The first thing that was brought to our attention is “why is it that our local black Zambians are not participating in that business?” We only see Zambians requesting for resident hunting and bona fide hunting licences when they go to their chiefs. So, we consciously decided to go back and do a review. In doing that review, we realised that there were many anomalies that were attributed to the awarding of hunting concessions and as such, that process was stalled immediately after the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government was voted into power.

 

Madam Speaker, I have been going through those documents. We have engaged stakeholders and it is our belief that once that whole process is done, we should be able to announce to the rest of the country what decision we would have made. Rest assured the moment the hunting concession is announced, we will ensure that Zambians are empowered. We want to give Zambians the first right of refusal so that they enjoy the resource that exists in their country.

 

Madam Speaker, to answer the hon. Member’s question, I will, in the next few weeks be announcing to the rest of the public what route we would have taken with regards to the hunting concession.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Mtayachalo: Madam Speaker, I think it is important for the hon. Minister to know that Chama was gazetted as a Game Management Area (GMA) in 1947. Then, it was part of Lundazi, but now, it is a district on its own and that has not been repealed. The people of Chama are not following the animals. It is due to the population increase in the wild animals. They are leaving their areas and going into villages. So, please, that should be corrected. I also want to find out from the hon. Minister whether he has plans of decentralising the operations of the district wildlife officers; the wardens. Usually, these people have to get authority from the Director-General in Chilanga when lives of people are at risk. Why can the hon. Minister not give them powers to act immediately and crop the animals that are posing a threat to food security and human life than waiting for authorisation from the Director-General at the Department of National Parks and Wildlife?

 

Mr Sikumba: Madam Speaker, just to correct my hon. Colleague, the operations of the Department of National Parks and Wildlife are decentralised. It is therefore misplaced for the hon. Member to suggest that instructions will have to come from Chilanga. Let me just give the House an idea of the hierarchy in the department.

 

Madam, we have the Director-General who operates from Chilanga and each particular area has a senior warden who is mandated and whose delegated authority from the Director-General is to manage a specific area that they are working in. So, if it is an issue of response time, that is something we can work out administratively. However, I assure the hon. Member that each area has a senior warden who manages the affairs both administratively and otherwise.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Menyani Zulu (Nyimba): Madam Speaker, my question has been overtaken by events, but I just want to make a request to the hon. Minister of Tourism. This problem of animal-human conflict is escalating each and every day. Fields are being lost in Chama and the entire Luangwa Valley. It is not because people are cultivating in the Game Management Areas (GMAs), but because the animals are overpopulated. We have too many animals that we need to transfer to Chienge or Kaputa so that our friends in those parts of Zambia can also have animals. I am happy that the hon. Minister said that he is going to give chance to locals to hunt.

 

Madam Speaker, does the hon. Minister have any plans to visit Chama so that he can appreciate what is happening and see how the population of animals has overgrown us?

 

Mr Sikumba: Madam Speaker, I always get fascinated when our hon. Colleagues talk about how many animals are there. Our science suggests that our habitat continuously depletes at a very alarming stage. So, the suggestion to crop the animals is something that my ministry and obviously, the Government would not want to consider. As the saying goes, what is good for the goose is good for the gander.

 

Madam, what I am trying to say is that should the community of Chama South or, indeed, Chama North feel that the animals which are in there are so much of the menace to them, – yes right now, we are looking at restocking. Not to put Her Honour the Vice-President on the spot but just to inform the House that we are restocking Nsumbu National Park, which is very close to Kaputa. Maybe, there, they will appreciate those animals than in Chama South and Chama North.

 

Madam Speaker, those are the plans that we have in terms of restocking the depleted national parks around the country. You must also recognise that there is always a science in wildlife management. It is not to suggest that any animal can be moved from one habitat to the next. It has to be driven by science. As such, and to answer the hon. Member’s question, we are not cropping any animals for now. Furthermore, for me to visit Chama North and Chama South, the hon. Member may need to send me a formal invitation. We are always together as well. The formal invitation will also give us ample time to respond. I had a chat with Hon. Mtayachalo yesterday regarding the same and he can attest that our response time to queries was more than adequate.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Chanda (Kanchibiya); Madam Speaker, I want to remind the hon. Minister of Tourism that in the course of last year, I did raise similar concerns in person with regard to Lwitikila river and the crossing point for our school children going to Chipi Primary School, how they get attacked almost on a daily basis by hippos. I want to believe the situation or case is the same with Chama. Unfortunately, the response from the Zambia Wildlife Authority (ZAWA) (Department of National Parks and Wildlife) leaves much to be desired.

 

Madam, there are also strong reports of ZAWA officers harassing ordinary citizens or residents. What is the ministry doing in ensuring that ZAWA is doing what it must do and does not go on harassing poor citizens who are, at the end of the day, being victimized by these hippos?

 

Mr Sikumba: Madam Speaker, I am a little bit worried because the request went to ZAWA. Had it gone to the Department of National Parks and Wildlife, we may have responded. I do not think I presided over anything to do with ZAWA. In any case, I did make mention much earlier in my response that the issue of response to calls by residents is something that can be dealt with administratively. Now, at the risk of suggesting that you come to my office, I will explain it again. Each particular area has a designated senior wildlife warden. That individual has wildlife police officers, rangers, as well as our community village scouts. So, should any complaint come through any of those, it will then be communicated to the central place which is Chilanga, and then we get to react. May I request that most of these questions that are coming through should be formerly submitted to my office and then we will be able to do a reconnaissance of what is going on within those particular areas.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker

 

Mr Kapyanga (Mpika): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for the aptly put response. However, I should hasten to mention to the hon. Minister that the same Department of National Parks and Wildlife is ill equipped, a situation which has led them not to be responding to such challenges as human-animal conflict. What is the hon. Minister doing to equip his officers so that they can be responding to these challenges on time?

 

Madam Speaker, I should also mention to the hon. Minister that what they tell us is that they are waiting for authorisation or instructions from Chilanga. If they report to the hon. Minister that they are able to execute the mandate that they have, on the ground the story is different.

 

Mr Sikumba: Madam Speaker, I thank Hon. Kapyanga for that question. I do agree with him that my officers are ill equipped but what I also want to put across is that the officers have not been ill equipped in the last six months, no. They have been ill equipped for a number of years, obviously, when the PF Government was in power.

 

Madam Speaker, as soon as we got into office, we did recognise that the only natural resource that we have in tourism, among others, is our national parks and we quickly ensured that the budget allocation for the Department of National Parks and Wildlife was increased to an excess of about 114 per cent. Now, increasing that budget allocation shows seriousness of exactly what we want to do with regards to wildlife management.

 

Madam, furthermore, in recognising the fact that in the last seven years, the Department of National Parks and Wildlife has not been considered properly, as such, we are, in the next few weeks, if not months, engaging our serious conservation partners who will bring in excess of about US$7million every year into a particular landscape to help us with conservation. Now, that is what we want to do. We will use it as a litmus test then we will replicate it to all the twenty national parks and thirty-six GMAs that we have dotted across the country.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Fube (Chilubi): Madam Speaker,...

 

Mr Mung’andu: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Chama South, on whom?

 

Mr Mung’andu: Can I proceed, Madam Speaker?

 

Madam Speaker: Proceed. What is the point of order?

 

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order pursuant to Standing Order 134, which talks about how hon. Ministers should conduct themselves, especially when it comes to answering questions.

 

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member, did you say Standing Order 134?

 

Mr Mung’andu: It should be Standing Order 65. I am sorry, Madam Speaker.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Speaker, hon. Ministers keep referring to the Patriotic Front (PF) yet the people of Zambia voted for them so that they correct those things which the PF hon. Ministers did not correct.

 

Mr Kapyanga: Yes!

 

Mr Mung’andu: That is the reason they are seated on the right side of the House. Actually, one of the promises that the New Dawn Government gave the Zambian people was to fix things which the PF did not fix.

 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mung’andu: From the look of things, are they are not in order – for example, the hon. Minister of Tourism is just from saying this problem was left by the PF …

 

Hon. UPND Members: Yes!

 

Mr Mung’andu: … when Zambians want solutions.

 

Hon. PF Members: Yes!

 

Mr Mung’andu: No wonder they gave the United Party for National Development (UPND) that mandate.

 

Hon. PF Members: Yes!

 

Mr Mung’andu: It is because they knew that they would do better than the PF.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hammer!

 

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Speaker, are our hon. Colleagues in order to keep referring to the PF when we Zambians out there want solutions?

 

Interruptions

 

Madam Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Member, I am not going to be drawn into a political debate. So, you are out of order.

 

Interruptions

 

Madam Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Member, I am not going to be drawn into a political debate. So, you are out of order.

 

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has talked about many things, which have attracted a lot of interest. One of them is the issue of restocking. Not that I want give a long preamble but just to demonstrate something. The hon. Minister talked about restocking Nsumbu National Park. When you talk about Nsumbu National Park, there is a park there that is highly deprived. If you fly to Nsumbu today, you land at Kasaba Bay, you will watch more than ten species of animals in two minutes meaning that there is another thing that exists on the map called Mweru Wantipa National Park which is –

 

Madam Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Member for Chilubi, let us not expand the question too wide for the hon. Minister might not be prepared to answer questions which are –

 

Mr Fube: No, I think he is prepared to answer the question I will ask. So, in terms of restocking – now, I am almost losing my thought.

 

Madam Speaker: order!

 

Hon. Member, are we together?

 

Mr Fube: Yes!

 

Madam Speaker: If you would, just take your seat.

 

Mr Fube resumed his seat.

 

Madam Speaker: Please, restrict your question to the question which is before this hon. House regarding the issue of hippos in Chama North.

 

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, then I will not ask on the hippos in Chama North because I was trying to respond to what the hon. Minister said in his answer. So, maybe I can pass.

 

Madam Speaker: Okay, thank you. What you can do is, if you have a strong question, you can put in a question and then the hon. Minister will consider it. The reason is we do not want to take the hon. Minister by surprise. That is why I am not allowing that question.

 

REHABILITATION OF THE MILENGE/KASANKA ROAD

 

267. Mr Chonde (Milenge) asked the Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development:

 

1. why the rehabilitation of the Milenge/Kasanka Road in Milenge District has stalled;
2. when the project will resume;
3. whether the Government has any plans to tar the road; and
4. if so, when the plans will be implemented.

 

The Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development (Eng. Milupi): Madam Speaker, the rehabilitation works of the Milenge/Kasanka Road in Milenge District have stalled due to funding constraints.

 

Madam Speaker, the rehabilitation of the Milenge/Kasanka Road will resume once funds are made available.

 

Madam Speaker, the Government has no immediate plans to upgrade the Milenge/Kasanka Road to bituminous standard due to fiscal challenges currently being faced by the Government.

 

Madam Speaker, the Government will consider upgrading the road to bituminous standard in future Road Sector Annual Work Plans.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Chonde: Madam Speaker, Milenge is a district that was established in the year 2000. Now, there have been perpetual cut offs every rainy season that comes. The New Dawn Government brought renewed hope for the people of Milenge. Now, I am taken aback by lack of specifics in the answer by the hon. Minister. My question to the hon. Minister is when does he think we can have an all weather road, even if it is not tarred, but a proper road that we can use. I think yesterday, we had an engagement with the hon. Minister, Milenge West is cut off. I appreciate his response. So, when does the hon. Minister think the people of Milenge will have a benefit of an all weather road? I do not mind whether it is tarred or gravel.

 

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for his proactive stance, specifically, on that particular road –

 

Madam Speaker: Hon. Minister, it is hon. Member.

 

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, I think I am predicating brighter life for him if he crosses to the right side.

 

Laughter

 

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, the works on the Milenge/Kasanka Road at the moment are being undertaken on using the Force Account. The cost, which was estimated at about K5.2 million is what we are going ahead with. So far, K3 million has been released towards the works on the project. The works on the 40 km out of the full distance which is about 71 km have been completed. The works that have stalled are as a result of the released amount being exhausted.

 

Madam Speaker, I do sympathise with the hon. Member. Our desire for any new district headquarters is that they are all connected to their provincial headquarters by bituminous roads. However, whilst we are scouting around for funds, he is right to ask that the road should be connect at least by an all weather gravel road. This, we shall look into.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Mutale: Madam Speaker, before we passed the Budget, the hon. Minister lured all the hon. Members in this House –

 

Ms Kasune: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

 

Ms Kasune: Madam Speaker, I raise the point of order on the hon. Member for Chipili and this is pursuant to Standing Order No. 6, which relates to the dress code for hon. Members of Parliament. It is clearly stipulated that suits have to be formal executive suits. As you can observe from your vantage point, the hon. Member is in a psychedelic dinner suit.

 

Laughter

 

Ms Kasune: Madam Speaker, as Whips, we take note of that and we need your serious ruling on the hon. Member. Otherwise, if all men, who are 142 hon. Members, came in this House in such suits, it will be a night club.

 

Laughter

 

Madam Speaker: Order!

 

The hon. Member of Chipili was sitting nicely, enjoying himself, especially after people were envying him, but now, there is a point of order that has been raised that he needs to dress in a formal business suit. So, the hon. Member for Chipili is out of order. Please, hon. Member, ensure that you are properly dressed.

 

Mr Mutale: Madam Speaker, I was saying that before we passed the Budget, the hon. Minister lured all of us in the House to pass the Budget so that he can implement all the programmes and resolve the problems that we have. The hon. Minister should help me to understand –

 

Madam Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Member for Chipili, we have a shorter day today, please, can you go and ensure that you put on a proper suit. Proceed hon. Member for Chitambo.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mutale: Madam Speaker, I was saying that the hon. Minister should help me to understand –

Mr Chala left the Assembly Chamber.

 

Madam Speaker: Our neighbours will soon claim a citizen.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mutale: Madam Speaker, I just wanted to understand how the hon. Minister is now spending now that the Budget was passed. Why is it that up to now, –

 

Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

 

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, this is in relation to the Standing Order that addresses us to parliamentary language and I going to find it as soon as I make my point of order with your permission.

 

Mr Chisanga: 65!

 

Mr Nkombo: Standing Order 65. Thank you.

 

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member of Parliament for Chitambo in asking the hon. Minister a question on the Floor uses the word “lure”. He said that he was lured into passing the Budget. The last time I checked, the word “lure” meant to offer something in exchange for another. Is he in order to suggest that this Government lured him into passing the Budget when this Budget was a subject of extensive debate, item by item?

 

I seek your ruling, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam Speaker: I missed that because of the hon. Member for Chipili, but hon. Member for Chitambo, if you can, withdraw the word “lured” because it is unparliamentarily in the context that you used it.

 

Mr Mutale: Madam Speaker, I withdraw the word lured and I will use the term we were told which is vote or pass the Budget so that these projects could be completed. Now, that the Budget was passed and we are here, why does the Government not have the money for the road in question?

 

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member for Chitambo is a very intelligent and experienced person. I am sure he understands the process of running entities especially vis-à-vis applications of budgets.

 

Madam Speaker, time and again, in fact, even this morning, Her Honour the Vice-President alluded to the very tight fiscal conditions that this country is operating under. I am trying to avoid using the term unreasonable. It is not proper to expect that all issues in the country will be resolved in the first Budget. What was said is that the programmes that are within the Budget will be tackled. However, as a nation, we cannot, therefore, put everything in the first Budget, especially when you are operating under a very tight fiscal space.

 

The items that may not be in the Budget are still being attended to, and that is why with respect to the Milenge/Kasanka Road, even though it is not in the plan for bituminous standard for this year, we are addressing the need to ensure that our people in those parts are able to use the road. That is why we have said that we have put K5.2 million to do a gravel road.

 

Madam Speaker, what we are saying is that out of that which has already been allocated, K3 million has been released and that is why we are saying out of the total 71 km of that road, 40 km has already been done. That shows the intent of the Government to address the needs of our people. However, to expect that every road in this country – I have travelled through the length and breadth of this country and the need is great compared to the resources that this country has. We do not have the resources. That is why the President and the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning are working day and night to expand the economy and put it back on track so that we can have more resources to address a lot more areas in our country than what we are able to right now.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Mwanza (Kaumbwe): Madam Speaker, thank you for allowing the people of Kaumbwe a chance to ask a question on the Milenge/Kasanka Road. This road has stalled and it is as important to the Government as other roads in other parts of the country like Mpamanzi Road in Kaumbwe Constituency. My question is: is this road under any litigation through the technical and financial audit that the Government has been conducting throughout the country? If so, what is the result and when would the hon. Minister have a comprehensive list of –

 

Madam Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Member for Kaumbwe, it is one question per hon. Member, please.

 

Mr Mwanza: I thank you, Madam.

 

Eng Milupi: Madam Speaker, as I understand, the hon. Member is asking whether the road is under litigation or audit and so on and so forth. Specifically, for this road, I very much doubt it is under the sort of things he is asking about. It just requires to be constructed so that our people can utilise it. We are doing what we can, as soon as more resources are made available, we will work on it. These resources are released on a monthly basis and when they are released, we allocate to where there is a need.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Ms Chisenga (Mambilima): Madam Speaker, I notice that on the Floor of this House, the hon. Minister has one particular response to most of the questions and that response is, when funds will be available. I strike the hon. Minister today because we are tired of this response. In particular, on the Milenge/Kasanka Road, we want him to give us a proper response on why it is not being worked on as we require. We require the hon. Minister to give us an adequate response as if it were failure or anything that he would actually solidly give to the people of Milenge and Luapula in particular, to this response.

 

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, I sympathise with the hon. Member for being tired. We are also tired.

 

Laughter

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Eng. Milupi: However, let me explain why that answer comes out persistently. We have to go back, in spite of the point of order that was raised earlier. We have to go back to the previous administration. In 2020; two years ago, the budget under my ministry for road rehabilitation and road construction was K10.55 billion. That was under the Patriotic Front (PF). In 2021, a year later, that budget was reduced to K6.5 billion. Under the PF, it reduced by over K4 billion. Under our Government in 2022, because of the state of the economy, we have had to reduce that budget. The reason the PF had to reduce was the diminishing resource basket. Under the 2022 Budget, we have had to reduce that budget further, from K6.5 billion to K4.9 billion.

 

Madam, a substantial amount of that is being allocated to the debt that we have with local contractors, consultants and so on and so forth, including companies like the National Pension Scheme Authority (NAPSA) that gave loans. That leaves us with very little to be able to undertake all the works that we require to undertake. So, when we say, when resources are available, that is the truth. In terms of road construction, rehabilitation and maintenance, you cannot do it without resources, and if you are operating in an environment of a diminishing budget, you have to provide that answer.

 

Madam Speaker, that is why as the New Dawn Government, people accuse us of not having a plan. The Hon. Minister has made it very clear, we do have a plan. However, the first aspect of that plan, is to deal with the debt situation. When we get over that, the economy will be back on track, we will release more money to be able to answer the hon. Member of Parliament for Mambilima, precisely when monies will be made available. However, as of now, because we are dealing with other people’s money, people lent us money, which the PF failed to pay, we have to deal with that. As soon as that is dealt with, we shall have resources that will be allocated on a timely basis to undertake projects like the one that is being done.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Kasandwe (Bangweulu): Madam Speaker, governing requires looking for resources and not to always give excuses. As the hon. Minister may be aware, Bangweulu and Milenge constituencies share this road. The 40 km that has been graded so far, falls under my constituency, actually.

 

Madam Speaker, this is a shortcut to the northern region; a shortcut from the Copperbelt to Luapula Province, from the Copperbelt to the Central Province through Chitambo and a shortcut to the Northern Province through Chifunabuli and Luwingu. Will there be any possibility in planning to consider a Public-Private Partnership (PPP) initiative so that this important road, a link between the Copperbelt and various provinces, that I have talked about is shortened? In fact, for the information of the hon. Minister, from Milenge to Mansa, it is 280 km, while the stretch from Milenge to Minsundu in Ndola is very short.

 

Hon. Member: 121 km.

 

Mr Kasandwe: It is 121 km. So, does the Government have any plans to consider this important project under the PPP?

 

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, the PPP is a route that we want to undertake because it has advantages. First of all, it is about investors that have money bringing it in so that the Government does not have to put money upfront. So, it has an advantage. Since the investor has an interest in that particular stretch of road, the second advantage is that usually, you get a quality road that will last over the concession period. The third aspect is because the investor is keen to start earning a return on that investment, the delivery of that project will be timely. So, we have three basic factors.

 

Madam, at this stage we are asking for unsolicited bids to undertake this. My challenge to the hon. Member for Bangweulu is that if he is aware of any contractor or investor who might be interested in this stretch of road and thinks he can get a return on that particular investment, my ministry is wide open for him to engage with me and bring those people on board so we can begin the process of addressing that particular aspect.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam Speaker: The hon. Member for Bangweulu is not nodding his head, I do not know if he has anyone.

 

Mr Chilangwa (Kawambwa): Madam Speaker, thank you for allowing me to make a follow-up question on the statement by the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development and President of the Alliance for Democracy and Development (ADD), the only President who seats behind a Vice-President.

 

Laughter

 

Madam Speaker: Order hon. Member for Kawambwa!

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Interruptions

 

Madam Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Member for Kawambwa, please ask a supplementary question on the question that is on the Floor of the House.

 

Mr Chilangwa: Madam Speaker, it is very clear from the answers given by the hon. Minister that although we were subjected to the anthem that bally will fix, they had no clue how to fix it. Is the hon. Minister confirming to the people of Zambia that that anthem of “bally will fix it” was deceit? Is he able to confirm?

 

Madam Speaker: That question will not be answered. We do not want to be drawn into a political debate.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

REHABILITATION OF THE KABWE/MUKOBEKO/NGABWE ROAD

 

268. Mr Kolala (Lufubu) asked the Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development:

 

(a)        whether the Government has any plans to rehabilitate the Kabwe/Mukobeko/Ngabwe Road; and

 

(b)        if so, when the rehabilitation works will commence.

 

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, the Government has plans to rehabilitate the Kabwe/Ngabwe via Mukobeko Road. The rehabilitation works on the road have commenced under Force Account, however, progress has been slow due to funding constraints. Works have started, but the release of funding is a bit slow.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Kolala: Madam Speaker, I just want to understand one thing from the hon. Minister. When he says the project has started, at what level is it? Is it mobilisation or is the contractor on the ground?

 

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, the periodic maintenance works under Force Account are estimated to cost about K4,853,263.17. The scope of these works includes spot gravelling, installation of culverts and the raising of embankments. So far, K750,000 was released towards the works in the 2021 Road Sector Annual Work Plan. The progress on this road stands at 20 per cent and works are expected to resume once – I am looking at the hon. Member for Mambilima there – once funds are made available.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mushanga: Madam Speaker, the people of Bwacha Parliamentary Constituency are interested because the road in question begins from Bwacha, passing through Mukobeko Maximum Prisons into Mpunde and to Ngabwe. What is the name of the contractor, since the works already started? Further, did the works start from Ngabwe side or Kabwe side, that is Bwacha Parliamentary Constituency?

 

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, I believe the hon. Member for Bwacha was Minister under the previous Government and as such, I would expect him to know what Force Account means. What I said was that periodic maintenance works are under Force Account. Force Account does not entail a contractor because it is works that are being done in-house.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Kolala: Madam Speaker, are we reporting things on paper or are we reporting things that are on the ground because there is nothing on the ground?

 

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, the ministry has officers in the province. We have regional managers, and so, when we get questions such as this, if the hon. Member is implying that the hon. Minister must go on site and check and then come and report, it is not always possible. We do that on a number of sites but on this one, it is the actual works that are reported by officers on the ground. If he has evidence that that is not the case, I welcome him to engage the ministry so that we can take corrective action.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

CLOSURE OF SOME COMMUNICATION TOWERS IN NALIKWANDA

CONSTITUENCY

 

 

269. Mr Mulaliki (Senanga Central) (on behalf of Mr Simunji (Nalikwanda)): asked the Minister of Technology and Science:

 

(a)        whether the Government is aware that Airtel Zambia is closing down some communication towers in 

            Nalikwanda Parliamentary Constituency;

 

(b)        if so, why the towers are being closed down;

 

(c)        how many towers used by Airtel Zambia were in the Constituency, as of October, 2021; and

 

(d)        how many towers at (c) were operational as of the same date.

 

The Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development (Eng. Milupi) on behalf of (The Minister of Technology and Science (Mr Mutati)): Madam Speaker, the House may wish to note that the Government is aware that Airtel Zambia is closing down some communication towers in Nalikwanda Parliamentary Constituency. The decision to close down the towers was communicated to the Zambia Information Communications and Technology Authority (ZICTA) and the justification for the closure was that the area has other towers from other mobile network operators to provide telecommunication services even after Airtel Zambia decommissions its towers.

 

Madam Speaker, as stated above, the decommissioning of the towers was undertaken after a detailed assessment to ensure that Nalikwanda had network coverage from the neighbouring Zambia Telecommunications Company Limited (ZAMTEL) tower. In this regard, communications for Airtel subscribers in Nalikwanda Parliamentary Constituency have continued to access quality network.

 

Madam Speaker, the House may wish to note that currently, Airtel Zambia has three sites in Nalikwanda Constituency, excluding the one at Namengo, which was decommissioned.

 

Madam, there are three operational towers as at October, 2021.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Mr Mulaliki: Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister is saying Airtel Zambia is pulling out of Nalikwanda because there are other communication towers. I will give you a scenario of Lusaka. We have various communication towers from different communication companies. There is a need for people to choose which communication network they intend to use. As the House may be aware, Airtel Zambia commands a larger number of customers or subscribers. In this regard, this particular tower, which has been decommissioned in Nalikwanda, is the tower which was servicing not only Nalikwanda but also Senanga Constituency as they share the same border.

 

Madam Speaker, the people there are complaining because they are now unable to access Airtel Money services and it becomes expensive for them to call those who are on the Airtel network using the Zambia Telecommunications Company Limited (ZAMTEL) network. With the low income levels available in Nalikwanda and Senanga, is the Government thinking of an intervention to ensure that Airtel network is availed there?

 

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, first of all, we must understand that these service providers are in business. They carry out assessments as to whether they are getting returns on a particular investment. In this particular case, they came to that conclusion. Whether I agree with it as the hon. Minister or the Government, is immaterial.

 

Madam Speaker, however, the hon. Member raises a valid question, that it is not just voice communication. The people having access to this also need it for other purposes such as the transfer of money and so on and so forth. All I can say at the moment is that the decision was made and the tower was decommissioned and removed from site. We shall engage with Airtel to see what else can be done with this particular issue.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Mr Chisanga (Lukashya): Madam Speaker, what is the Government going to do to ensure that these events do not recur? I ask this because it is very expensive for our people in the rural areas to even buy a Subscriber Identity Module (SIM) card. If a provider comes and erects a tower which gives me access to his services and I purchase a SIM card, at what may be a cheaper price to somebody in Lusaka but more expensive to somebody who is in Senanga, is the Government trying to ensure that these events do not occur and also ensure that our people in the rural areas continue to access these towers as well as other services that are peripheral?

 

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, I sympathise with the hon. Member for Lukashya on the issues raised. We are talking about technology and what we must understand is that these communication towers work across networks. They are not just specific to one particular network. So, Airtel or MTN subscribers can still have access to quality services on the basis of this communication across towers. As Government, we have assessed and ensured that the people are not unduly disadvantaged, as long as they can continue to have network. I think in my earlier answer I said the people will continue to have quality services because of the networks that still exist.

 

Madam Speaker, however, when infrastructure, in this particular case telecommunication, is put up in a place, when you remove it, it causes some anxieties and uncertainties. That is why I have said we, as Government, will engage with Airtel to find out if there is a better way in which it can do some of these things.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Mr Chilangwa: Madam Speaker, I sympathise with my hon. Colleagues; the hon. Members of Nalikwanda and Senanga. The hon. Minister has alluded to the fact that some decisions by service providers, and in this particular case Airtel, are informed by the economic environment of particular areas.

 

Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister confirming that the economic pictures of Senanga and Nalikwanda and Zambia in general, have become so bad because of these bad economic policies or lack of it by this bad United Party for National Development (UPND) Government?

 

Madam Speaker: Those are the loaded questions I always talk about.

 

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, that question gives me an opportunity to say that the decision to decommission a tower is not made overnight, like today. It is a process that started way back in the previous administration assessing whether there was economic activity or not, whether it was bad economics or not.

 

Madam Speaker, regarding the fact that the Government de-commissioned it, I believe this question came around October as the questioner says “As of October, 2021.” So, the parameters that led to this decision were not under the New Dawn Administration; it was under the Patriotic Front (PF) Administration. The bad economy was under the PF Administration. That is what the New Dawn Administration is correcting. We are putting the economy back on track, and when we do that, I am sure that Airtel will be back because it will see economic activities in that particular area. That is why, hon. Member for Kawambwa, I am saying that I think in the next fifty years, you will have lots of experience in the Opposition ...

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Eng. Milupi: ... before you can come and take over from us.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

STALLED CONSTRUCTION OF POLICE STATION AND STAFF HOUSES IN SERENJE DISTRICT

 

270. Mr Kandafula (Serenje) asked the Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development:

 

1. why the construction of a police station and staff houses in Serenje District has stalled;
2. when the project will resume;
3. what the cost of the outstanding works is; and
4. what the timeframe for the completion of the project is.

 

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, the construction of a police station and staff houses in Serenje District has stalled due to funding constraints.

 

Madam Speaker, the project will resume once funds are made available by the Treasury.

 

Madam Speaker, the total cost for outstanding works is as follows: Lot I, K25,208,621.75 and Lot II, K19,225,289.72.

 

Madam Speaker, the project will be completed within six months of funds being made available.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Chibombwe (Bahati): Madam Speaker, before I ask the hon. Minister a question, allow me, on behalf of the people of Bahati, to say happy Women’s Month to you and all the ladies in the House, and especially the country.

 

Madam Speaker: Thank you.

 

Mr Chibombwe: Madam Speaker, you are welcome.

 

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has said that the ministry will attend to this project when funds are available. Would he allow the hon. Member of Parliament to use part of his Constituency Development Fund (CDF) towards the construction of the police post?

 

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Bahati. First of all, I think he has demonstrated that he is, indeed, a gentleman because he is the only one who has wished our mothers and sisters a happy Women’s Day. So, he has given us a good example.

 

Madam Speaker, as regards his question, yes, provided it is within the rules governing the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). These are some of the things that our constituencies can use to get development going whilst waiting for the Central Government to have more funds.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Mushanga: Madam Speaker, hon. Minister, during Her Honour the Vice-President’s Question Time this morning, I wished the women of Zambia a happy Women’s Day. So, that makes it the two of us with the hon. Member of Parliament for Bahati.

 

Madam Speaker: Thank you.

 

Mr Mushanga: Madam Speaker, at what percentage are the same houses which are being constructed? I did not hear from the previous question that you are using the Force Account.

 

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, I also apologise that I did not count the hon. Member like the hon. Member of Parliament for Bahati.

 

Madam Speaker, the detailed answer to his question as to what is the percentage and so on is that first of all, the project for the construction of a police station and staff houses in Serenje District is divided in two lots, that is, two contracts. Lot I involves the construction of sixteen low cost houses, forty medium cost houses and ten high cost houses and associated external works. The contract sum is K36 million. Up to date, K11 million has been paid. The contractor is Wall Tech Enterprises Limited of Lusaka. Commencement date was February 2014 and original contract duration was seventy-eight weeks. Current progress, which is what the hon. Member asked for is 45 per cent as at January, 2019 when the works were suspended.

 

Madam Speaker, Lot II involves the construction of a police station, thirty low cost houses, sixteen medium houses, one high cost house and five type two high cost houses and associated works. The contract sum is K34 million. Amount paid is K14.7 million to Datong Construction Limited of Lusaka. Progress on this work is 50 per cent. Of course, the client is the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

ELECTRIFICATION OF SCHOOLS IN MULOBEZI PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCY

 

265. Eng. Mabenga (Mulobezi) asked the Minister of Energy:

 

1. whether the Government has any plans to electrify the following Schools in Mulobezi Parliamentary Constituency:

 

1. Sanembo Primary;

 

1. (ii) Kamanga Primary;

 

1. (iii) Bwina Secondary; and

 

1. (iv) Nawinda Secondary; and

 

1. if so, when the plans will be implemented.

 

The Minister of Energy (Mr Kapala): Madam Speaker, the hon. Member did not finish giving me the question he wanted to ask. May he repeat the question.

 

Madam Speaker: Unfortunately, the hon. Member for Chitambo is not here. Hon. Member for Mambilima, would you like to stand in for the hon. Member for Chitambo?

 

Laughter

 

Ms Chisenga: Madam Speaker, no. I wish not to indulge.

 

Eng. Mabenga: Madam Speaker, today, I am here in the Chamber to face the hon. Minister himself –

 

Interruptions

 

Madam Speaker: The hon. Member is used to sitting in the Committee rooms. You can excuse him.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Eng. Mabenga: Madam Speaker, can I go ahead?

 

Madam Speaker: Please, proceed.

 

Eng. Mabenga: Yesterday, I asked the hon. Minister a supplementary question as to what emergency measures the Government was going to put in place while waiting for 2030 for the people of Mulobezi to have electricity. They are entitled to electricity. He responded that we can use the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). Now, the CDF is not meant for putting up power lines. Even if it was allowed in the guidelines, the amount is too small.

 

Madam Speaker, since he talked about the programme, that programme is not cast in stone. Is it possible for the hon. Minister to revise that programme so that the people of Mulobezi can have something between now and 2026? Since 1964, they have never seen any development there. There is nothing to talk about.

 

Mr Kapala: Madam Speaker, my advice to the hon. Member is that we have got a planned workshop with the Rural Electrification Authority (REA) where we are going to look at adjusting the master plan. So, you may find that Mulobezi may be connected even before 2026. However, I encourage all hon. Members of Parliament to look at using say K5 million from the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) to electrify three schools at the most. That amount is enough to do that. I am sure that if you take out K5 million each year from the K27.5 million, we should be able to make some good progress on electrification.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Twasa (Kasenengwa): Madam Speaker, I am a little bit worried with the responses coming from the hon. Ministers, in this case, the hon. Minister of Energy. To me, it has become a norm that whenever we ask about these developmental projects, we are always referred to the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). Is the hon. Minister of Energy implying that the Government is not ready carry out such projects hence pushing those projects to CDF?

 

Mr Kapala: Madam Speaker, why am I encouraging rural constituencies to use part of the CDF is because right now, the funds are not available. Therefore, we are better off using part of the CDF to do some electrification works where they are urgently needed.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Lubozha (Chifubu): Madam Speaker, I sympathise with the people of Mulobezi. Mulobezi has schools, hospitals and clinics that are not electrified. These schools have science laboratories from where pupils have to do practicals during exams and in the course of learning. What is the ministry doing in the interim to help the people of Mulobezi so that children who are at school can continue doing these practicals in schools where they do not have power?

 

Mr Kapala: Madam Speaker that is a tough call whereby we have indicated that as soon as funds are available, we will be able to attend to all rural electrification programmes.

 

I thank you, Madam

 

Mr Anakoka (Luena): Madam Speaker, the people of Mulobezi, like many others in rural constituencies such as Luena, are looking forward to having electricity as the basis or the driver for economic development. Given that there have been challenges with rural electrification through the Rural Electrification Authority (REA), is the ministry ready to reconsider the model of electrifying rural areas because the REA model clearly, is not delivering the expected results?

 

Mr Kapala: Madam Speaker, as I said, these are issue that you can bring up at the workshop or seminar that will be conducted by REA. The master plan was done in 2008 and a lot of things have happened such as changes in the economy and all. When you look at the current budgetary allocation to REA, you will see that it is the highest ever since the master plan was formulated. So, there is desire by the Government to accelerate rural electrification. I am encouraging my fellow hon. Member of Parliament to bring these issues up so that we can find a common solution for everybody.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

_______

 

MOTION

 

ADJOURNMENT

 

The Vice-President (Mrs Nalumango): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

 

Question put and agreed to.

 

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The House Adjourned at 1235 hours until 1430 hours on Wednesday, 9^th March, 2022.

 

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