Friday, 22^nd October, 2021

 

The House met at 0900 hours

 

[MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

 

NATIONAL ANTHEM

 

PRAYER

______

 

RULINGS BY MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER

 

A POINT OF ORDER RAISED BY MR A. C. MUMBA, THE HON. MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR KANTANSHI PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCY, AGAINST THE MINISTER OF YOUTH, SPORT AND ARTS, HON. E. C. NKANDU, FOR ALLEGEDLY MISLEADING THE HOUSE REGARDING THE INTERNSHIP PROGRAMME UNDER HIS MINISTRY

 

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, you will recall that on Friday 15^th October, 2021, when the House was considering Question for Oral Answer No. 40, and Mr D. Mung’andu, the hon. Member of Parliament for Chama South Parliamentary Constituency was on the Floor, Mr A. C. Mumba, the hon. Member of Parliament for Kantanshi Parliamentary Constituency raised a point of order.

 

In the point of order, Mr A. C. Mumba, MP, asked whether the hon. Minister of Youth, Sport and Arts was in order to mislead the House that the National Internship and Apprenticeship Programme under his ministry would continue, when the National Youth Development Council which was responsible for the programme had issued a letter indicating that the programme would end on 31^st October, 2021.

 

Hon. Members, in my immediate response, I reserved my ruling in order to study the matter. I have since studied the matter and now render my ruling.

 

Hon. Members, in order to address Mr A. C. Mumba, MP’s point of order, I had recourse to the verbatim record of the proceedings of Friday, 15^th October, 2021 pertaining to Question for Oral Answer No. 40 relating to the youth internship programme in Chilubi. Mr R. Mutale, the hon. Member of Parliament for Chitambo Parliamentary Constituency asked the hon. Minister of Youth, Sport and Arts a supplementary question on whether the internship programme would be discontinued as stated by the hon. Minister of Health. In response, the hon. Minister of Youth, Sport and Arts stated that the internship programme would continue. It is this response that resulted in Mr A. C. Mumba, MP’s point of order.

 

Hon. Members, I further had recourse to an electronic copy of the letter referred to by Mr A. C. Mumba, MP, in his point of order, which he sent to the Office of the Clerk using the WhatsApp messaging service. I noted that the letter was from the National Youth Development Council and was addressed to all provincial youth development co-ordinators.

 

Hon. Members, the council is a public body established under the National Youth Development Council Act Chapter 144 of the Laws of Zambia. Therefore, the letter that Mr A. C. Mumba relied upon in his point of order is a public document.

 

Hon. Members, an hon. Member who makes reference to a document in the House is required to lay the document on the Table. Standing Order No. 139 of the National Assembly of Zambia Standing Orders of 2021 has rules regarding the manner a Backbencher may table a public document in the House. It states as follows:

 

“139. Tabling of Public Document by backbencher

1. A backbencher may table a document provided it is an original document.
2. A backbencher shall not table a copy of a public document unless the copy has been certified as a true copy of the original document by the relevant head of Government ministry, department or agency that has custody of the original document.”

Hon. Members, according to Standing Order No. 139, a Backbencher can only table a hard copy of a public document which has been authenticated by the Government ministry, department or agency that has original custody of the document. Mr A. C. Mumba, MP, did not table the letter, and the letter was neither authenticated as required by Standing Order No. 139. In view of the foregoing, the letter is not admissible and consequently, his point of order is not admissible.

 

I thank you.

 

A MATTER OF URGENT PUBLIC IMPORTANCE RAISED BY MR M. F. FUBE, THE HON. MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR CHILUBI PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCY, AGAINST HON. M. HAIMBE, MP, THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE, HON. J. J. MWIIMBU, MP, THE MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS AND INTERNAL SECURITY, AND THE REPUBLICAN PRESIDENT, MR H.  HICHILEMA, ON THE ALLEGED SUSTAINED AND SPONSORED ATTACKS ON THE DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC PROSECUTIONS ON SOCIAL MEDIA

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, you will recall that on Tuesday, 19^th October, 2021, during the segment on matters of urgent public importance, Mr M. F. Fube, the hon. Member of Parliament for Chilubi Parliamentary Constituency rose on a Matter of Urgent Public Importance pursuant to Standing Order No. 134 of the National Assembly of Zambia Standing Orders of 2021.

 

The Matter of Urgent Public Importance raised by Mr M. F. Fube, MP, was that there was a sustained and sponsored attack against the Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP) on social media regarding the operations of her office in general and how she used her power to enter a nolle prosequi in particular.

 

Hon. Members, in her immediate response, the Hon. Madam Speaker, requested Mr M. F. Fube, MP, to lay on the Table of the House, the relevant paper he had in his possession, and reserved her ruling. I have since studied the matter and will now render my ruling.

 

Hon. Members, the Hon. Madam Speaker has given sufficient guidance on the raising of matters of urgent public importance. I, however, wish to reiterate that the rationale for matters of public importance under Standing Order No. 134 is to allow hon. Members to bring serious and urgent matters that only an hon. Member of Parliament could be privy to, to the immediate attention of the House and the Government. These should be matters which if not acted upon immediately by the Government could result in a catastrophe leading to loss of life or property. Such urgent matters include natural disasters like floods or fire and invasions by humans or animals. Therefore, while an issue may appear important, if it is not so urgent and serious that it requires immediate attention of the Government to avert a calamity, then, it is not admissible under Standing Order No. 134.

 

Hon. Members, while the issues raised by Mr M. F. Fube, MP, may be important, it is my considered view that they do not require the immediate action of the Government to avert a calamity as stated by Standing Order No. 134. In view of the foregoing, the matter raised by Mr M. F. Fube, MP, is not admissible as a Matter of Urgent Public Importance. I once again urge hon. Members to acquaint themselves with the rules governing matters of urgent public importance. 

 

I thank you.

 

POINT OF ORDER RAISED BY MR S. KAMPYONGO, THE HON. MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR SHIWANG’ANDU PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCY AGAINST THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION, HON. D. SYAKALIMA, MP, REGARDING HIS RESPONSE TO A QUESTION POSED BY MR S. KAMPYONGO ON THE FLOOR OF THE HOUSE

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, you will recall that on Thursday, 14^th October, 2021, when the House was considering Question for Oral Answer No. 34, and Mr M. Anakoka, the hon. Member of Parliament for Luena Parliamentary Constituency was about to ask a follow up question, Mr S. Kampyongo, the hon. Member of Parliament for Shiwang’andu Parliamentary Constituency, raised a point of order against Hon. D. Syakalima, MP, Minister of Education.

 

The gist of Mr S. Kampyongo, MP’s point of order was whether Hon. D. Syakalima, MP, was in order to tell him that his follow up question enquiring on the Government’s policy on early childhood education fell outside the scope of the question on the Floor of the House and that he ought to file a question for the hon. Minister to enumerate policy, when the hon. Minister’s responses to the question were more on policy.

 

In her immediate response to the point of order, the Hon. Madam Speaker, reserved her ruling in view of the several points of order that had been raised, to enable her study the matter. The matter has since been studied and I will now render the ruling.

 

Hon. Members, Standing Order No. 131 provides for the procedure to be followed when raising a point of order. In that regard, Standing Order No. 131(3) states that:

 

“(3) In raising a Point of Order, a member shall cite the Standing Order, law on privilege of members, rule of procedure or practice, which has been allegedly breached.”

 

Hon. Members, I have pursued the relevant verbatim record of what transpired on the material day, and it is clear that in raising his point of order, Mr S. Kampyongo, MP, did not cite the Standing Order, law on privilege or rule of procedure that the hon. Minister of Education had breached. In view of this, the point of order breached the procedural requirements I have just outlined. The point of order, therefore, is not admissible.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I remind hon. Members to clearly cite the rule, law, privilege, practice or procedure breached whenever they raise a point of order.

 

I thank you.

 

______

 

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

 

The Vice-President (Mrs Nalumango): Madam Speaker, let me give the House an indication of the business it will consider next week.

 

Madam Speaker, on Tuesday, 26^th October, 2021, the Business of the House will begin with Questions for Oral Answer. This will be followed by the presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any.

 

Madam Speaker, on Wednesday, 27^th October, 2021, the Business of the House will start with Questions for Oral Answer. This will be followed by the consideration of a Private Member’s Motion entitled “Allow Retention of Local Revenue for Internal Development” to be moved by Mr L. Simumba, the hon. Member of Parliament for Nakonde Parliamentary Constituency. This will be followed by the presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will consider the Report of the Select Committee on the Presidential appointments of four constitutional office holders.

 

Madam Speaker, on Thursday, 28^th October, 2021, the Business of the House will commence with the debate on the Motion to suspend the relevant Standing Orders to enable the House to sit in the afternoon on Friday, 29^th October, 2021, to allow the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to present the 2022 National Budget. This will be followed by Questions for Oral Answer. Thereafter, the House will consider the presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any.

 

Madam Speaker, on Friday, 29^th October, 2021, as already indicated, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning will present the 2022 National Budget starting at 1415 hours.

 

I thank you, Madam. 

 

______

 

THE VICE-PRESIDENT’S QUESTION TIME

 

Mr Mulaliki: On a Matter of Urgent Public Importance, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam Speaker, in Senanga Central Constituency yesterday, –

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Hold on, you have not been given the Floor.

 

Matters of Urgent Public Importance should be announced just before I call upon Her Honour the Vice-President. That is how it is supposed to be. So, we can move on to The Vice-President’s Question Time.

 

Mr Kambita (Zambezi East): Madam Speaker, in recent days, we have had a situation where monies were recovered from people who have been suspected to have plundered the national economy and are mostly associated to the Patriotic Front (PF).

 

Hon. PF Members: Question!

 

Mr Kambita: Recently, we saw in the media that the Government entered into an agreement with one of them and recovered colossal sums of money. I would like to have an understanding of how much is expected to be recovered in the near future from these plunderers, from the PF, who have looted this country and denied us these resources? Are there any other cases that are so active, and will those who have failed to return the stolen national resources be arrested anytime soon?

 

The Vice-President (Mrs Nalumango): Madam Speaker, I am grateful for the very important question asked by the hon. Member of Parliament for Zambezi East. He asked on the recovery of monies from those that may have plundered, by his statement, national resources. I must admit that there was a little bit of talking and I could not pick everything that the hon. Member asked. I request my colleagues to allow me to fully understand what is being said so that I am relevant to the questions asked.

 

Madam Speaker, what I heard was on recovery. Recovery will continue because it is provided for in our laws.

 

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

 The Vice-President: It will continue. It is found in the Anti-Corruption Commission Act at Section 80. It provides for a person who is found with money or property that is proceeds of some crime to quickly declare, rather than allow litigation, a lengthy process, that truly he/she had done something wrong and wills to forfeit what had been acquired back to the State. Then, that is entered, as far as I remember, as admission and what was acquired is, therefore, forfeited to the State. This is the method that is being used. We appeal to colleagues in this matter, if they know they acquired something in that manner, that they come forward because they know that that is not their property or resources. It is important unless ...

 

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

 The Vice-President: … once they are caught, they want to go to court. Definitely, this Government will not start arresting people without investigations. You will know that investigations have been done and, truly, we will have to explain to the Zambian people. There however, is a provision which allows the State to retain the money and put it back to public use.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mundubile (Mporokoso): Madam Speaker, I would like to thank you for this opportunity to ask a question.

 

 Madam Speaker, I will start with an old English adage which says, “On a good day, let only good words be spoken.” Today is, indeed, a good day …

 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mundubile: … for us as the Patriotic Front (PF) and I congratulate the people of Lusangazi and Kaumbwe for giving the PF Party the vote.

 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mundubile: As Leader of the Opposition, I am very happy that I will receive yet another hon. Member of Parliament who will join us.

 

 Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mundubile: It is, indeed, a very good day and let only good words be spoken.

 

 Mr Lusambo: Bwekeshenipo first tumfwe.

 

Mr Mundubile: Madam Speaker, we all know that civil servants play a key role in service delivery and in the implementation of Government programmes. It is for that reason that any Government would want to look at the welfare of civil servants.

 

It is a well known fact that civil servants were highly indebted, and, for that reason, the then Government of the PF party went into an arrangement of a debt swap. This was to create some relief on civil servants .The Government did not go into a blame game or look at civil servants as having borrowed carelessly. Given the number of civil servants who were in that position, any responsible Government needed to move in quickly to offer some form of relief.

 

After protracted discussions which lasted over two years, civil servants, through their unions and the Government, arrived at that position of a debt swap.

 

When the New Dawn Government came in, it suspended this programme and assured the nation that it had a better programme, a sustainable programme that would supersede or be superior or better than the programme that was earlier entered into. What we have seen –

 

Interruptions

 

 Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Mr Mundubile: We have seen a reversal of the earlier suspension on the deductions. It is very clear that there may be no immediate solution to this problem. We are calling upon Her Honour the Vice-President to tell the nation and civil servants whether the Government will soon come up with a permanent solution as regards the debt swap considering that very soon, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning will present his budget which will be implemented from 1^st January, 2022. The Government will require a motivated Civil Service to begin to implementing its programmes, the good programmes of the New Dawn Government. We do not expect a Civil Service that is de-motivated and stressed to implement these good programmes. How soon is the Government coming up with a permanent solution for the debt swap?

 

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I thank you for the question that has been asked by the hon. Member for Mporokoso and Leader of the Opposition.

 

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member shows a lot of compassion for civil servants today, but I must say that the indebtedness of civil servants goes back all the years the hon. Member was in the Government.

 

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! 

 

The Vice-President: We have answered this question before in this House. We said that we are going to relook at that programme. That programme did not involve only the Government and civil servants. In fact, civil servants were simply a third party in the sense that the Government had to remit the money. That is what they had to do. However, the Government caused a lot of indebtedness also because of the failure to remit. This is how the Government came in, but I will tell you that the actual agreement was between the Government and workers. The amount concerned was not in the way the hon. Member politically wanted to put it.

 

 Madam Speaker, I will say that we do understand that we definitely cannot implement the programme in the Budget that was left behind. The negotiations are continuing. It is a continuous thing. Year in, year out, there is a collective bargaining process. The only issue that I will talk about is the recovery of the two months deductions that we have made. The recovery cannot be done now because it was not spoken about now. Therefore, this listening Government has already signed with unions that recoveries for the two months will be paid back to their members until we find what the hon. Member called a permanent solution. We are not going into this debt swap which was not even a swap, but just a pay back to the owners.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

The Vice-President: The Government was supposed to pay back what it owed to the workers. For the rest, yes, it was purely a campaign. Next, we have already agreed and, they should not bring things here if they have not been following what is happening. The Government has already signed with the unions on how it is going to proceed.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kapyanga (Mpika Central): Madam Speaker, the Tanzania Zambia Railway Authority (TAZARA) workers play a key role in as far as the development of our country is concerned. The situation that TAZARA workers face is a serious one. As I talk, TAZARA workers are in two months salary arrears. To worsen the situation, operations from Kapiri Mposhi to Mpika, where I come from and which houses the regional headquarters for TAZARA, have been suspended to allow for the renovation of the Chambeshi Bridge.

 

Madam Speaker, we anticipate that by the time they finish, – they have set three months for the renovations – TAZARA workers will be in five months salary arrears, suffering like that in their own country.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: What is your question?

 

Mr Kapyanga: Madam Speaker –

 

Hon. Government Members: What is your question?

 

Mr Kapyanga: You do not have to urge me to ask a question. Let the Speaker speak.

 

Interruptions

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, order!

 

Hon. Member, can you quickly ask your question because there are a lot of hon. Members of Parliament…

 

Mr Kapyanga: Yes, Madam Speaker, I am actually asking.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: … who would want to use this opportunity.

 

 

 

Mr Kapyanga: Madam Speaker, does the Government intend to aid TAZARA so that it is able to pay its workers’ salaries in the meantime in the face of the suspension of operations until it resumes operations?

 

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member seems to have a lot of detail, but the issues of TAZARA are historical. The issues of the indebtedness and the failures of this very important asset of the Republic of Zambia have been neglected for a long time.

 

Eng. Milupi: By the PF!

 

The Vice-President: Yes, by the outgoing Government.

 

Hon. PF Members: Question!

 

The Vice-President: Yes!

 

Interruptions

 

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, in this House…

 

Interruptions

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, order!

 

The Vice-President: There was a Motion on the Floor of this House.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

The Vice-President: The hon. Member for Kapiri Mposhi then, brought a Motion in this House.

 

Mr Nkombo: Yes!

 

Mr Muchima: Seconded by Nkombo.

 

The Vice-President: I am even being told that the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development seconded that Motion ...

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

The Vice-President: … so that the people of TAZARA could be paid by the Government then.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Hon. PF Members: Question!

 

The Vice-President: They had issues.

 

Mr Muchima: Hear, hear!

 

The Vice-President: They refused.

 

Interruptions

 

The Vice-President: Now –

 

Interruptions

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, order!

 

Do we want Her Honour the Vice-President to answer that question or we move on to another subject?

 

Hon. UPND Member: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Can we give her chance to answer the question so that the people of Zambia can listen.

 

Mr Muchima: Hear, hear!

 

The Vice-President: Now, the hon. Member for Mpika Central has come up. Maybe, he has no such history, ...

 

Laughter

 

Mr Kapyanga: But it is your work!

 

The Vice-President: … and wants to put the blame on the Government that has been in office for hardly two months.

 

Interruptions

 

The Vice-President: This Government will work to revamp all that was neglected, …

 

Mr Lusambo: Including privatisation.

 

The Vice-President: …but is, currently, working within the Budget of the Patriotic Front (PF).

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

The Vice-President: If there is no provision to do that, please, understand. We are a serious Government and we will do everything possible. We appreciate. You do not have to ask a question when you know the answer. You should be able to approach us. Our budget is coming. We will see what will be available, but we will continue to work far much better and with serious concern and not lip service to the people just so that they can hear that they are being spoken for. Please, speak things that are of concern. This Government will look at that as it continues.

 

 Thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

 Can we have some order!

 

Mr Lusambo: Ema Reverend aba!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, please!

 

Mr Mushanga (Bwacha): Madam Speaker, I thank Her Honour the Vice-President because Friday is a very important day for this House and for the people of Zambia as questions posed on the Floor of the House entail that communication is given to the people of Zambia.

 

Madam Speaker, in line with the recently held by-elections; one local Government and one parliamentary by-election in Kaumbwe, I saw Her Honour the Vice-President and His Excellency the President move from Lusaka into Luapula; from Luapula into the North-Western Province; from the North-Western Province into the Eastern Province; and from the Eastern Province into the Central Province.

 

Madam Speaker, His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia and her Honour the Vice-President are on record saying that when they came into office, they found no money in the coffers of this country. I am just …

 

Hon. Member: Question!

 

Mr Mushanga: … wondering, all of a sudden, where the money has come from for…

 

Mr Mutelo: Recoveries!

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mushanga: … His Excellency the President, Her Honour the Vice-President and hon. Ministers to travel all over.

 

Mr Kapyanga: Bale onaula indalama!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: What is your question hon. Member?

 

Mr Mushanga: When the Patriotic Front (PF) was in office, every time its leaders undertook any trip from Lusaka into other provinces, it was regarded as wasteful spending.

 

Mr Nkombo: By who?

 

Mr Mushanga: Does her Government not think, His Excellency the President, Her Honour the Vice-President and hon. Ministers traversing the country especially to go and campaign even for councillors – for the first time, we saw His Excellency the President campaigning for a ward councillor in a ward –is wasteful spending, especially for a nation…

 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mushanga: … saying that there is no money…

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, order!

 

Mr Mushanga: …in the coffers? Does it not think that that is wasteful expenditure? Does it not think it is too early…

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member…

 

Mr Mushanga: … for the United Party for National Development (UPND)…

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member…

 

Mr Mushanga: ... to lose elections in barely two months?

 

Madam Speaker: ... take a seat.

 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, when you are called upon to stop talking, you should stop. In fact, you are supposed to take your seat and only continue when you are called upon. I just wanted to tell you that the more time you take to debate your question, the more you deny other hon. Members of Parliament time to ask questions as well.

 

Mr Mushanga: Well guided, Madam Speaker.

 

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, on the concern by the hon. Member, firstly on this Government inheriting coffers that are empty, it really shocks me when people keep asking that why are you doing what you are doing if there is no money? It is plain understanding that is required here. When you say there is no money, even last time I said so, it does not mean there is no coin. You have to understand.

 

Hon. PF Members: No!

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, this House should ask questions and want to hear answers. We have had many questions including yesterday, and they will appear today: “Why has this stalled”, “why has that stalled?” So, is that not an indication that the money that was supposed to go to those programmes is not there? What does that mean? So, when we talk of empty, we do not mean that children are not eating in a home. When you say that you have no money, you may just have only for your necessities.

 

Hon. PF Members: Question!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Madam Speaker, the going around by the Presidency, I will use the word Presidency – He is not doing anything strange, but working within the law. I am not aware that hon. Ministers are traversing in public vehicles. They move in their own private vehicles. They have a right just like hon. Members of Parliament in this House to go everywhere and campaign.

 

So, to us as a Government, it is important to go and campaign where there is a local government by-election. We have a duty to ensure that Zambians make the right decision, for once, without any interference like it was before.

 

Madam Speaker, let me congratulate the PF on winning the Kaumbwe and Lusangazi elections, but it must also know that we have won in many other areas. We have won –

 

Mr Lusambo: You have not even congratulated us.

 

The Vice-President: We have congratulated you.

 

Interjections

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, we have to admit that those seats were held by the PF. So, that is not a win, but retention. The PF has retained its seat. The United Party for National Development (UPND) has won in Mwansabombwe.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

The Vice-President: That is what we call the penetration of other people’s areas. So, the actual winner is the UPND. The rest have retained their seats.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Chaatila (Moomba): Madam Speaker, in 2017, the World Bank funded works on rural roads to be worked on in all the ten provinces of Zambia. As usual, the Patriotic Front (PF) Government then, put these provinces in batches, starting with what it perceived to be its strongholds in the north. The Southern and the Western provinces were last.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Member, Her Honour the Vice-President cannot get your question. Could you speak a little louder?

 

Mr Chaatila: Madam Speaker, I was saying that in 2017, the World Bank funded the works on rural roads to be worked on in all the ten provinces of this country. As usual, when it came to working on these roads, the PF Government then, started in its perceived strongholds, leaving the Southern and the Western provinces to be the last.

 

Madam Speaker, surprisingly, three week ago, we did a follow up as to when the roads in the Southern Province were going to be attended to. It was shocking to find that the project in the Southern Province has been suspended or done away with. I do not know about the Western Province. In Monze, for example, we were given 101km of roads to be done –

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Member, could you go straight to your question.

 

Mr Chaatila: Madam Speaker, where has the money, which was given by the World Bank to work on roads such as the Haachanga/Kaola Road in Moomba Parliamentary Constituency gone?

 

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member for Moomba has said that there was money given by the World Bank for road works in all the provinces. In his statement, the hon. Member says that the previous Government started work in its perceived strongholds.

 

Mr Syakalima: Their former strongholds.

 

The Vice-President: Their former strongholds, thank you, ...

 

Laughter

 

The Vice-President: ... and that other areas were left out. I am happy to tell this House that yes, that may have been the case, but the money is still there and work will continue even in the provinces that were not reached like Moomba.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Chitotela (Pambashe): Madam Speaker, I am concerned at the breach of the Ministerial Code of Conduct by some of the hon. Ministers, basically on the collective responsibilities. This may warrant a Motion of Censure or writing to the Chief Justice, bearing in mind that His Excellency the President has been preaching unity in the country, while some hon. Ministers are busy demonising regions, including where Her Honour the Vice-President comes from. I understand they may not feel how Her Honour the Vice-President and other hon. Ministers who are serving in the New Dawn Government feel when they talk about the northern region.

 

Madam Speaker, I was privileged to serve in Government. I think even Madam Speaker will agree that if an hon. Minister in the last Parliament wanted to speak on regional lines, the Speaker would censure such an hon. Minister and remind him/her that they are hon. Ministers. This is because it is against the Ministerial Code of Conduct and the Constitution of Zambia. I served in the previous administration where donor funded projects like the Zambia Strengthening Climate Resilience Project were concentrated in the Western and the Southern provinces. We did not say that they had neglected the northern part of Zambia. That is a fact.

 

Madam Speaker, I served under the Kavango-Zambezi (KAZA) region. Millions of dollars have been concentrated in the northern, the western and the southern parts of Zambia, leaving Nsumbu National Park where Her Honour the Vice-President comes from. We never stood here as Ministers to talk about regions. The World Bank projects were started by the World Bank in 2009, during the reign of the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD). The implementation began in 2013. Roads and projects selected –

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

What is your question?

 

Mr Chitotela: Madam Speaker, is it in order for hon. Ministers within the Government that is preaching unity, to continue breaching the Ministerial Code of Ethics and Conduct by maligning a certain region that within the Cabinet, they may not be sensitive to the feelings of those from the northern region –

 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Mr Chitotela: Is it in order for them to continue maligning –

 

Hon. PF Members: Hammer! Take your time.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Member, finish your question.

 

Mr Chitotela: Madam Speaker, honestly, we should do away with politics. Is it in order for hon. Ministers to continue maligning a certain region of the country against the spirit of His Excellency the President who has been preaching unity of purpose in bringing the country together? Or will they let some hon. Backbenchers move a Motion of Censure against some hon. Ministers if they continue?

 

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, what I love about this is that the hon. Member acknowledges our principle of wanting to unite this country.

 

Mr Muchima: Hear, hear!

 

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, we are working on doing just that. It is “One Zambia, One Nation.” Hon. Members, it can be seen even today, …

 

Interruptions

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

The Vice-President: … that we are working to unite. Even Mwansabombwe today, is showing unity.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, the point that I would like the hon. Member to learn is that for today, I have not heard any hon. Minister who is trying to divide the country. It is truly collectively agreed that we must bring development to every part of Zambia. If there are questions that are being asked, they are by hon. Backbenchers, unless those also become part of the ministerial conduct. Right now, no hon. Minister can ask me a question here during the Vice-President’s Question Time. So, I do not know when that happens or maybe, he has evidence of an hon. Minister trying to segregate one region against the other. To this Government, Zambia is one, and nobody will divide it. Whatever may have happened, there are no more bedrooms and cockroaches. Every Zambian is a Zambian. There is no rat in our country. Where I come from in the north, there are Zambians. Where the south is, there are Zambians. We have human beings everywhere and we intend to keep it that way. Anybody who divides a country is not worthy to be a leader. If you have done so, repent now because God is not happy.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kamondo (Mufumbwe): Madam Speaker, as you may be aware, Mufumbwe is one of the biggest districts in Zambia. I am happy to report to the House that Her Honour the Vice-President went to Mufumbwe and she knows how vast it is. The people of Mufumbwe are asking if it is not prudent now to give Mufumbwe another district due to its vastness, which is like Nkeyema, Kaoma, Kasempa, Mumbwa and Manyinga?

 

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, the Cabinet or the Government has not sat to start considering the creation of new districts. Yesterday, I was listening to a statement by the hon. Minister of Health, who did refer to what was happening in the past Government where they had a “Let there be” approach. It is not about “Let there be”, to please people politically. What we need firstly, is the infrastructure in the different parts of Mufumbwe just like other parts of the country. I cannot tell this House that we have that plan right now. We do not, but we intend to take development everywhere including to Mufumbwe. In some remote parts of Mufumbwe, they need health services, schools and other amenities that are necessary for good life.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Simushi (Sikongo): Madam Speaker, the level of damage to the unity of this country caused by the former Patriotic Front (PF) regime is unprecedented, to say the least. Under the United National Independence Party (UNIP) and the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) Governments, Zambia was a beacon of peace and tranquility not only in Africa, but the world at large. Unfortunately, this status was completely destroyed under the PF regime in which tribalism, regionalism, violence and hate speech were the order of the day. What measures will be undertaken by the New Dawn Government to ensure that sustainable unity, peace and tranquility are restored in this beautiful country apart from equitable development and employment opportunities across the ten provinces of this country?

 

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I think this is coming out very strongly, that every Zambian desires unity. There is a lot of work that we should do ourselves in our communities to sensitise one another that we are truly “One Zambia, One Nation.” Yes, I understand the concern by the hon. Member who wants to know what this Government will do to restore unity, peace and tranquility apart from the equitable distribution of wealth or resources. If anybody chooses to stand against the “One Zambia, One Nation” motto, the Constitution of Zambia itself, will take care of such a person who wants to act contrary to what our motto says, which is the unity of our people. Let it be implanted in our hearts that we are truly one people, irrespective of the political or regional divide. That is where God placed us. So, this Government will ensure that nobody promotes hate speech or tribalism. Even under the current laws in the Penal Code, the provision is there. Therefore, all you say is, law enforcement, take it up. If Nalumango stands here and calls somebody a regional rat, the law should follow her. We cannot allow that.

 

Madam Speaker, I know our founding father, President Kaunda, deliberately worked on ensuring that we were one. In my time, one could even be sent from Kaputa to Kalabo as a pupil at secondary school so that he/she learns other people’s culture and language. That is what used to happen. It was deliberate and nobody should come and destroy this. I cannot promise anything that we have not agreed on, but we have to try and do everything possible to try and enforce this unity in our country. We all need it.

 

Madam Speaker, the people on your left need unity. From this side (right), we need unity. We will not divide ourselves. After all, you have seen that some of the people who sat on your right still want to sit here. They are already coming to join. From the Patriotic Front (PF), we have many people who have already joined us. So, there is no permanent position to include now, regions, tribe and hate. That is outside politics. That is failure to do politics. We are “One Zambia, One Nation.” We will continue to pursue unity as espoused in our manifesto to unite the country.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mutayachalo (Chama North) was not available.

 

Mr Michelo (Bweengwa): Madam Speaker, in the previous regime, we saw so many people committing crimes. People bought fire tenders and fuel tankers …

 

Mr Lusambo: Privatisation!

 

Mr Michelo: … under the Ministry of Youth, Sport and Arts. We do not know where those tankers are right now. The youths in Bweengwa Parliamentary Constituency are very interested because they want to benefit from those tankers. We have seen criminals around still enjoying freedom. Her Honour the Vice-President, what is the Government doing about this? It is like these criminals who plundered our national resources have gone too far to even start making serious and alarming statements in the country by trying to divide the country. What is this Government doing to make sure that these criminals are brought to book because we are very aware that the previous regime –

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Mr Fube: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

 

Interruptions

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Before you finish your question, the word, ‘criminals’ is unparliamentary. Could you remove that and maybe, use another word.

 

Interruptions

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Member. you can quickly finish your question. Withdraw the word ‘criminal’ and replace it with another word.

 

Mr Michelo: Madam Speaker, I withdraw the word ‘criminals’ and replace it with plunderers.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Michelo: Madam Speaker, these plunderers, some of whom are former hon. Ministers and business persons under the Patriotic Front (PF), are still moving freely on the streets of this country. What is the Government doing to ensure that this community of plunderers is brought to book?

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Fube: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Member, you do not raise points of order during the Vice-President’s Question Time.

 

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, let me thank the hon. Member for Bweengwa for his question who, in my understanding, is concerned about what we are doing to the people who may have plundered national resources.

 

Madam Speaker, where I come from we say, “umulandu taubola”.

 

Interruptions

 

Hon. Member: Na privatisation taibola!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, order! Meaning?

 

The Vice-President: A case never rots.

 

Madam Speaker, there is no limitation to criminal liability. It does not matter when it was done, it will still be followed. However, the most important thing when hon. Members bring out such a concern about what is being done is that we are different and we want to follow the law. This is what the President said. He said “Do not arrest people before investigations.” The investigative wings of this country have been given the freedom to investigate. They will not bring cases just to take to court to clean up matters. They have to do their due diligence and be sure that there is a matter fit to go before court. They have to gather all the evidence.

 

Madam Speaker, so, for us, we will rely on those wings of the Government to do their due diligence. Definitely, Zambians will ask people to account and they will account at the right time, but we are not going to use social media and be swayed by people just talking. We want to do things right. We want any person who is guilty to be truly guilty. We do not just want to arrest people for political expedience, but investigative wings are investigating. We will use professional investigative bodies such as the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC), the Financial Intelligence Centre (FIC) and the Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC) to follow up the matters. So, there should be no hurry, we are just praying that everybody remains calm in the country. When their time to answer comes, they will answer.

I thank you, Madam.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mung’andu (Chama South): Madam Speaker, Chama District will be cut off from the rest of the country next month. There is no road from Chama to Lundazi and the Chama/Matumbo Road is remaining with 61km before completion. What measures is the New Dawn Government putting in place to ensure that the most difficult points of the two stretches on the roads are worked on so that the people of Chama can be relieved from the suffering they go through each rainy season?

 

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, that is a very important question and we are aware of that problem. We cannot go on seeing our people being cut off. It is on the plan. We hope that it can quickly be worked on as resources are available so that this year, we do not see what we saw in the previous season.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

_______

 

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

 

KABWE TOWNSHIP ROADS PROJECT

 

56. Ms Halwiindi (Kabwe Central) asked the Minister of Local Government and Rural Development:

 

1. why the construction of township roads in Kabwe Central Parliamentary Constituency has stalled;
2. when the project will resume;
3. what the total cost of the project is; and
4. what the time frame for the completion of the project is.

 

The Minister of Local Government and Rural Development (Mr Nkombo): Madam Speaker, the works for the construction of township roads in Kabwe Central Parliamentary Constituency are ongoing and overall progress is now at 58 per cent.

 

Madam Speaker, the contractor’s name is Asphalt Road Zambia Limited (ARZ) and is on site. Works are in progress and the total project cost is K623,294,985.85. The completion date of the project is 31^st May, 2022.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Ms Halwiindi: Madam Speaker, may I bring it to the attention of the hon. Minister that I am in the constituency every weekend. There are no ongoing works on Mwapoleni Road, Chipata Road, Nakoli Road and the Site and Service Road. I think the works stopped two weeks before elections. To date, there is nothing happening in Kabwe Central Parliamentary Constituency.

 

Madam Speaker, allow me to give this illustration to the hon. Minister. I would say Kabwe Central Parliamentary Constituency is like a patient who is complaining of abdominal pains, taken to the theatre, operated upon and left in the operating theatre room without oxygen and blood. What you expect from that patient is death. That is what has happened to the roads in Kabwe. They have been ripped off and left just like that and now the rainy season is around the corner. Every roads backbone is the drainage. There are no drainages on these roads and obviously what is expected is that these roads will be very impassable like they way it was the last rainy season. So, I seek the hon. Minister’s indulgence and help. The people of Kabwe Central Parliamentary Constituency are crying. They at least want a solution to easy their movement during the rainy season because there is nothing going on. We seek the help of the hon. Minister.

 

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, I sympathise with her situation and she should help me pamper the people of Kabwe Central Parliamentary Constituency to stop crying because their tears will just be in vain.

 

Madam Speaker, let me give supplementary information about this project. It is true that the project is running. It may also be true that there may be ongoing works on the ground at the moment because the contractor is facing many challenges emanating from the failure to pay. The contractor has been on site and has not been paid for a very long time.  The contractor has not been paid for a very long time simply because the previous Government had over committed to many contractors and many townships, including the constituency that I represent, Mazabuka, where a company called China Jiangsu International Economic and Technical Corporation Group, was contracted to do roads as far back 2013.

 

Madam Speaker, I wish I could maintain the roads in the fashion the hon. Member desires. However, for now, there is simply no money to do what she is saying. The roads are in a bad shape. Let me just give a bit of the background. When the Patriotic Front (PF) Government came into power in 2011, it embarked on the Link Zambia 8,000 Kilometre Road Project, Copperbelt 400 Kilometre Project (C400 Km Project) and Lusaka 200, which we supported because the idea was good, and that was to connect the country. However, the idea of overstretching by over 3000 per cent, only amounts to recklessness on the part of those who signed the contracts and did not know where the money was coming from.

 

Madam Speaker, when I come to this House to give a list of the contractors, hon. Members may jump out of their skin in surprise.  Previously, the Food Reserve Agency (FRA) was used as a cash cow for politicians. This ministry is under stress. So, give us time. We will bring the information here. It is all there in raw form. Then, hon. Members will understand that the act of not paying Asphalt Road Zambia Limited, as the case is in this question, is not deliberate.  There is no money. Our colleagues left an empty coffer; K300 million against K12.9 billion, work it out yourself.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Ms Halwiindi: Madam Speaker, I really sympathise with the situation in which we have found ourselves in because of over procuring when there was not enough money in the coffers. However, my earnest appeal is that remedial works like laying a stone base on the roads should be done. Crashed stones can be put on the roads to ensure that they are passable. The House may note that in Kabwe, we do not have any industries and people rely on buses and taxis. People use those same roads when going to the market to sell their merchandise. If the roads will be completely impassable, I do not know what is going to happen in Kabwe Central Parliamentary Constituency. However, I appeal to the Government to lay a stone base so that the roads can be passable and that would do well for the people of Kabwe Central Parliamentary Constituency.

 

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, I would like the hon. Member for Kabwe Central to assist me when she goes back home this weekend. She should pass through the Bwacha Road, where she will find drainages being lined. As I speak, there is a sub-base processing going on Kafue Road and Mukobeko Road in order to ameliorate a would-be disaster when the rainy season sets in. There are also dumping stone materials on the Kohima Barracks Road, the Bwacha Road, the Luangwa Road No. 38B and the Kabwe Central Hospital Road. For now, that is all we can do because those are low hanging fruits. However, in terms of completing those works, I think I have exhausted the answers.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Lusambo (Kabushi): Madam Speaker, we have seen some ‘green horn’ Ministers failing to answer questions directly.

 

Madam Speaker, the people of Kabwe Central have suffered in terms of roads. Kabwe Central is more like a connecting route to other towns, when it comes to the road network. I know that the hon. the Minister of Local Government and Rural Development has been to Kabwe Central several times and he has seen the condition of roads in the town. The Mwanawasa Government started constructing those roads and Rubix Contractors was engaged to work on the roads in Kabwe Central and Kapiri Mposhi. During the Patriotic Front (PF) Government’s regime, another contractor also worked on those roads.

 

Madam Speaker, considering that the ministry is stressed in terms of finances, when is it going to find the money to give to the people of Kabwe Central, so that they can have better roads? During campaigns, His Excellency President Hakainde promised them that the roads will be worked on.

 

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, Hon. Lusambo terminated his question by reciting what he calls a campaign promise of His Excellency the President, Mr Hakainde Hichilema. I reaffirm that the President of this Republic, Mr Hakainde Hichilema, is a very serious individual and he does everything possible to live up to his word.

 

Madam Speaker, coming to the question, Kabwe Central is one jurisdiction. As the Government, we are looking at the entire country, including the constituency that I represent. The people in my constituency are suffering just like the people of Kabwe. Maybe, it is safe to say that the constituency that I represent is even in a worst situation. The same applies to many other constituencies, up north and more up south and down west, in terms of township roads. So, allow us to settle down and we will deal with the issue that I brought up here that the past Government over committed.

 

Madam Speaker, let me give hon. Members more information because I think they deserve it. Of the K12.9 billion that was committed, I want them to know that, currently, works worth K3.5 billion have been certified as having been completed against what I said earlier on that only K300 million was put in the budget. So, there is still a tall order to pay those people. I am talking about real things; K3.5 billion has been certified, and of this amount, K1.3 billion has been paid.

 

Madam Speaker, I do not know where our colleagues found the money because the budget was only K300 million. What this tells you is that they did not even respect the Appropriation Bill, which is law. They must have been pulling money from all over the show to appease their political friends, as I said earlier on. So, we are doing everything that we can within our power to get everybody to smile or laugh. However, under the current circumstances, I can only appeal to my friend and hon. Colleague to give us time to apply our innovation to see how we can demolish this debt mountain that our colleagues made us inherit through reckless over contracting and over procuring.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I will take the last two questions from the hon. Member for Kafue and the hon. Member for Pemba.      

 

Mrs Chonya (Kafue): Madam Speaker, I really sympathise with the situation as is being outlined by the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development. As the hon. Minister has confirmed, the roads are very pathetic everywhere else, including in rural areas. How soon will the people be on the ground to work on the feeder roads, at least where we have monies available from the World Bank funding?

 

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member of Parliament for Kafue for that question. I think what we need to do is to separate issues here. The figures I have been sharing here are for the Government projects and this is far away from the World Bank funded projects. So, to give the hon. Member a bit of comfort, the World Bank funded projects are ongoing and they are going on very well. There is no problem. People are on the ground and everything is happening as it ought to.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Hamwaata (Pemba): Madam Speaker, the people of Pemba Parliamentary Constituency are very happy that we have an hon. Minister who is capable in this ministry. However, we sympathise with the hon. Minister that he is putting on gumboots with burning charcoal left by this reckless former Government of the Patriotic Front (PF). My question is: Does the hon. Minister have any plans to engage all the contractors under his ministry with the view of reaching a mutual understanding, bearing in mind that the contracts have expired? As the hon. Minister may know, when contracts expire or take too long, there is a cost to the Government. Does he have any plans to engage the contractors to reach a mutual understanding to avoid those costs?

 

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, I am trying my best to hold back, but I am compelled to say what I have to say now. In my opening remarks, I said that our friends used this ministry to please their political colleagues. This is a sweeping statement.

 

Madam Speaker, there was a tendency in this ministry of allowing people to sign up, people who did not even have the capacity to do that, as a way of sustaining them and then they would go and find people who had the know-how to do the work. It is called value addition.

 

Madam Speaker, in terms of me calling the contractors, I have not seen the need to call any contractor at this point in time. I have not seen the need to call the contractors because we have embarked on an exercise of carrying out verifications or an audit, if you like, on whether all the roads that were contracted and all the jobs that were certified were done so prudently. Therefore, it goes without saying that we first want to do our work away from the contractors and do due diligence to see that work has been done. We sympathise with those contractors because there are some among those lists who have done their work correctly.

 

Madam Speaker, the spoiled spot is that it became percolated with political people who have no ounce of knowledge of how to even build a culvert, but they are on the list of contractors. So, we will in due course sit with them, and I think we will sit with them on a one-by-one basis because not all cases are bad. There are many contractors who have done their work and they have done it correctly, but there was a tint of what we think was political aggrandisement and this is what we want to eliminate. As a Government that is now in power, we shall not take this route just to try to please political friends.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

CHALABESA STREET LIGHTS INSTALLATION

 

57. Mr Chanda (Kanchibiya) asked the Minister of Local Government and Rural Development:

 

1. whether the Government has any plans to install street lights in Chalabesa in Kanchibiya District;
2. if so, when the plans will be implemented;
3. what the estimated cost of the project is; and
4. what the estimated time frame for the completion of the project is.

 

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, the ministry currently has plans to install street lights in Kanchibiya.

 

Madam Speaker, the project will be implemented once we do our budgeting and funds are made available for it.

 

Madam Speaker, the estimated cost of undertaking this project is K350 million.

 

Madam Speaker, the estimated time frame within which this project can be complete is only six months.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

KASEMPA VOCATIONAL SKILLS TRAINING CENTRE CONSTRUCTION

 

58. Mr Kamondo (Mufumbwe) asked the Minister of Education:

 

1. whether the Government has any plans to construct a vocational skills training centre in Kasempa District;
2. if so, when the plans will be implemented;
3. what the estimated cost of the project is;
4. what the estimated time frame for undertaking the project is; and
5. what courses will be offered at the centre, once completed.

 

The Minister of Education (Mr Syakalima): Madam Speaker, the Government has plans to construct a vocational skills training centre in every district and Kasempa District is no exception.

 

Madam Speaker, the commencement of implementing the plans to construct a vocational skills training centre in Kasempa District depends on the availability of funds. The implementation will be done in phases under the Medium Term Expenditure Framework (MTEF).

 

Madam Speaker, the cost of the project depends on the engineering designs of the centres that will inform the Bill of Quantity (BoQ). The plans will be a prototype that will be constructed in every district.

 

Madam Speaker, the estimated time frame for the project’s implementation is over a period of twenty-four months, subject to final project designs and other associated features to be agreed upon.

 

Madam Speaker, the courses to be offered will be centred and driven by the key economic drivers of the region.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Kamondo: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for the answers he has given. In the interest of privacy –

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Business was suspended from 1040 hours until 1100 hours.

 

[MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

 

Mr Kamondo (Mufumbwe): Madam Speaker, my question has been overtaken by events.

 

59. Ms Halwiindi (Kabwe Central) asked the Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development:

 

1. whether the Government has any plans to construct a dual carriageway on the Great North Road between Prospects and Memaco Farms in Kabwe District; 
2. if so, when the plan will be implemented; and
3. if there are no such plans, why.

 

The Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development (Eng. Milupi): Madam Speaker, yes, indeed, the Government has plans to construct a dual carriageway road between Prospect and Memaco Farms in Kabwe District as part of the project for upgrading the road from Lusaka to Ndola into a dual carriageway. Plans will be implemented once funds for the project are secured. Plans to upgrade the road to a dual carriageway are, indeed, already in place.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Lusambo (Kabushi): Madam Speaker, the Great-North Road, from Prospect to about Lwanshimba or let me just say Kapiri Mposhi, is in a very bad condition. Yesterday, the hon. Minister indicated to this House that he will be undertaking a tour of provinces just to appreciate the condition of the roads in this country. The question from our colleague, the hon. Member for Kabwe Central, is a very important one and the situation is urgent. For us, with my colleague Hon. Tayali, Member of Parliament for Ndola Central, who use the Great-North Road, our lives are in danger. It would be very expensive if the two of us died. It would be costly on the Government coffers. Does the hon. Minister have any immediate plans to undertake the construction of the dual carriageway between Lusaka and Ndola, bearing in mind that the previous Government had started the planning which, to me, reached an advanced stage on that project. Does the Government of His Excellency, Mr Hakainde Hichilema, have any immediate plans to safeguard the lives of travellers who travel between Lusaka and Ndola?

 

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member of Parliament for Kabushi for that follow up question. He always starts very well and then he puts in what his party previously did. However, the state of the Great North Road has worse off portions than the portion that he talked about. Even from Kapiri Mposhi going towards Ndola, some portions are in very bad state. I do use that road regularly because I am a Copperbelt person and still have lots of interests on the Copperbelt. The road has been in that state for a number of years. His Excellency, President Hakainde Hichilema, has only been in office barely two months. However, we take responsibility for the failures of our friends who were on your right side. There are a number of things that we have to correct.

 

Madam Speaker, a little bit of history for the benefit of the hon. Member of Parliament for Kabushi, the Government initially intended to undertake works on the project using contractor facilitated initiative mode of finance.

 

It was the contractor China Jianxi Corporation for International Economic and Technical Corporation that was awarded this contract. The House may wish to know that the contract value was US$1.2 billion. This is for a road barely 400 km. The contractor was paid an advance an amount of US$30 million. This contractor actually set up two of the four planned camp sites. However, the previous administration discontinued this project in order to keep the country’s debt to sustainable levels. So, it was not discontinued by this administration, but by the previous one.

 

The Government is currently negotiating with the contractor with a view to finding the best way to close the contract in view of the financial challenge. In addition, the Government, through support from the World Bank, intends to undertake a feasibility study to determine the viability of undertaking works on the Lusaka to Ndola Road and other road sections in the country using the Public-Private Partnership (PPP).

 

Madam Speaker, as the New Dawn Government, we believe that if we undertake the upgrading of these roads using the PPP mode of financing, the cost will be substantially reduced and, of course, the Government will save the people Zambia a lot of money.

 

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mrs Halwiindi: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development for the good answer he has given to the people of Kabwe Central Constituency.

 

Madam Speaker, the House may wish to note that in 2015/16 General Election, Sable Transport and Construction Limited was contracted to work on the dual carriageway from Kasanda Police Station into town. However, just after the election, the contractor demobilised. The unfortunate part is that we had very nice concrete-lined drains which were removed and buried. The situation is that there is too much flooding during the rainy season. Actually, there is a market there and people always just trade in water. However, we would like to say thank you so much because plans are still there to work on the dual carriageway.

Madam Speaker, we want to make an appeal this coming rainy season. You know the Road from Makombe all the way into town is really damaged and has many potholes, thereby, posing a danger to motorists. Does the ministry have any plans to put up remedial works, especially by pothole patching to avoid accidents during the rainy season when the potholes develop so deep and are invisible because sometimes you find pools of water? Are there any plans for the ministry to put aside some money so that emergency works like pothole patching could be done during the rainy season from time to time as the potholes surface?

 

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, in fact, the question the hon. Member for Kabwe Central asked talked about the portion of the road from Kasanda going into town. Maybe I can inform her that that is part of the township roads because, again, I know Kabwe very well having lived there in the past. In fact, part of the plan for this particular dual carriageway, as I see it, is actually to bypass Kabwe and Kapiri Mposhi. So, it is unlikely to touch the particular portion. I think my hon. friend, the Minister of Local Government and Rural Development spent a lot of time explaining what is happening with the Kabwe roads in one of his responses this morning. So, this particular one, the Lusaka/Ndola Dual Carriageway, will bypass Kabwe to ensure that the town centre remains traffic free and is not congested by heavy traffic and so on and so forth. The same applies to Kapiri Mposhi.

 

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

HUNTING CONCESSIONS ISSUANCE

 

60. Mr Kamondo (Mufumbwe) asked the Minister of Tourism:

 

(a)        how many hunting concessions were issued in the following Game Management Areas (GMAs) in Kasempa District as of July 2020:

 

(i)         Kasonso-Busanga;

 

(ii)        Lunga-Busanga; and

 

(iii)       Kasempa-Lunga-Luswishi;

 

 

(b)        what are the names of the concessionaires in each GMA;

 

 

(c)        how long each concessionaire has been operating;

 

 

(d)        how much revenue was generated from the concessions from 2016 to 2019, year by year; and

 

 

(e)        what benefits, if any, accrued to the local communities as a result of the concessions.

 

The Minister of Tourism (Mr Sikumba): Madam Speaker, in total, three hunting concessions were issued in Kasonso-Busanga, Lunga-Busanga and Kasempa-Lunga Game Management Area (GMA) in Kasempa District as of July 2020.

 

Madam Speaker, the names of the concessionaires are Madabula Safaris, trading as Ntengu Safaris, in Kasonso-Busanga and Lunga-Busanga GMAs and Pro-Hunt Safaris in Kasempa-Lunga GMA.

 

Madam Speaker, Madabula Safaris, trading as Ntengu Safaris, has been operating in Kasonso- Busanga GMA for four years and ten moths and in Lunga-Busanga GMA for one year and ten months. Further, Pro-Hunt Safaris has been operating in Kasempa-Lunga GMA for four years and ten months.

 

Madam Speaker, the revenues that were generated from the concessions from 2016 to 2019 year by year are as follows:

 

1. US$294,415 in 2016;
2. US$349,337.74 in 2017;
3. US$333,451.00 in 2018; and
4. US$434,452.54 in 2019.

 

Madam Speaker, this brings the total revenue generated in the three GMAs in the stipulated period to US$1,069,253.74.

 

Madam Speaker, the benefits that accrued to local communities as a result of the concessions are as follows:

 

1. the Government has shared revenue from the local fees with the communities worth K159,590 for Kasonso-Busanga; K26,925 for Lunga-Busanga; and K115,900 for Kasempa-Lunga-Luswishi. This brings the total revenue given to communities to K302,415 over the stated period;
2. other forms of benefits that accrued to the communities include, but not limited to the following:

 

1. 50 per cent of all edible carcasses of hunted game is given to the community;

 

1. liaison officers have been employed from the communities;

 

1. skills training and salaries provided to village and community scouts; and

 

1. training and employment of apprentice professional hunters.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Mr Kamondo: Madam Speaker, out of these concessionaires, how many are locals?

 

Mr Lusambo: None!

 

Laughter

 

Mr Sikumba: Madam Speaker, of the three concessionaires that I have mentioned, none are locals.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Lusambo (Kabushi): Madam Speaker, now that the hon. Minister has confirmed that there are no indigenous Zambians operating those concessions, is that not going against his Government’s promise during campaigns that it will promote local Zambians to have a chance to get these concessions not only in Kasempa, but in many other areas as well. You are now in Government. You are one of the people who were working under the Ministry of Tourism. If I am not mistaken, you were one of the officers on the board and you followed all these things when they were being given to foreigners. Are you going to rescind this decision now, as an hon. Minister of Tourism, to give Zambians like me, concessions in these game reserves?

 

Mr Sikumba: Madam Speaker, for starters, this is the first time I am working in the Ministry of Tourism. I have not been an employee of the Ministry of Tourism. I do not have a service number in the ministry. So, to just correct my fellow hon. Member of Parliament, I did not work for the Government. This is my first time and my first posting.

 

Madam Speaker, secondly, these are concessions which were signed off by the then Patriotic Front (PF) Government. Our concessions, which are actually being reviewed right now, are the ones which are going to be reviewed by the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government. So, we have no role, whatsoever, in these concessions you are talking about. Unfortunately, the person who was in charge at the time, in the ministry, is not in the House to defend herself, but I can safely tell you that it was the PF Government which gave the foreigners all these concessions we are talking about.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kamondo: Madam Speaker, it is very sad to note that the Patriotic Front (PF) Government did not do things the right way. Now that the New Dawn Government is in power, what measures is it putting in place to make sure that human rights are protected? I ask this because these foreign concessionaires are very bad. Sometimes, they go to an extent of even spraying trees with chemicals so that they kill the caterpillars. At the end of the day, if people go to get the caterpillars, they die. Sometimes, they would tie people and remove their clothes, treating them in a very inhumane manner. What is the New Dawn Government going to do to correct this vice, which is very bad?

 

Mr Sikumba: Madam Speaker, what my ministry has actually established with the concessions that have been given out over the years is that the collaboration among the local leadership, hon. Members of Parliament and the actual outfitters in those concession areas was non-existent. Now, what my ministry under the New Dawn Government, obviously, is looking out for when we get to sign the 2022 to 2032 concession agreements is to ensure that the three people; that is the outfitter, the CRBs as well as the parliamentarians, not only them being party to the contract, but they should be able to discuss with the communities on how best they are going to manage that particular protected area. We have seen situations in which, when push comes to shove, the community runs to the ministry to deal with the matters when in actual sense, these issues should have already been dealt with at a local level involving the chiefs, parliamentarians and CRBs. So, that is in place, and the Government, through the Ministry of Tourism will ensure that those discussions are put on the Floor.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Mung’andu (Chama South): Madam Speaker, it is clear that the amount of money that the people of Mufumbwe or the communities benefited is nothing compared to what these outfitters are reaping from these natural resources. Is the ministry considering promoting a competitive bidding process because some of these outfitters short-change our people through bribery of chiefs during the selection process? Apart from promoting local Zambians, is the ministry considering making it a very competitive process whereby the outfitters should win based on the many commitments that they are making to our communities? What I mean by local Zambians is Zambians of permanent residence in this country or, indeed, indigenous.

 

Mr Sikumba: Madam Speaker, we do recognise the fact that when an outfitter goes into an area, the negotiations or amount of money is paid to them is what they negotiate for. So, it is entirely up to the CRBs, which obviously, are set up by the communities, to negotiate with the outfitters on how much of the share of the wallet they would want to get. The Government has its own statutory fees, which it charges. This is obviously our reserve price on the bids. That is what we collect. However, other obligations that the outfitters pay to the community are based on the negotiations with the CRBs.

 

Madam Speaker, with regards to getting locals to participate, I think it is very important that they get to apply for these bids when we advertise them. In many instances, we have found that in as much as we float a tender for a particular GMA, most of our locals, unfortunately, do not participate. However, I would like to put it on record right here on the Floor that we encourage the locals to participate. I have done that for parks and in other opportunities within the tourism sector, where the locals should be able to participate. So, I would like to encourage each and every one of us to look out for this in the media. As soon as we float most of these investment opportunities in the sector, to allow our locals to participate, yes, we will deliberately wait for the locals to participate and that is our exact position.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Mwambazi (Bwana Mkubwa): Madam Speaker, it is a notorious fact that our Zambian people have not been benefiting from these concessions. These concessions are mostly given to foreigners. I think it will be important to have quarters which are just for Zambians and foreigners to ensure that our people have access and are given their own platform. This is because most of the time, as tenders are being done, even people in the ministry connive with some of these foreigners to ensure that they get those concessions because there will be kickbacks. So, apart from encouraging Zambians to participate, what is the New Dawn Government doing to ensure that our locals, who should be beneficiaries to some of these resources get to benefit from these concessions?

 

Mr Sikumba: Madam Speaker, we recognise the need for our locals to participate in such concessions. As such, I will take the hon. Member’s guidance with regards to targeted approaches and what we could institute to ensure that our locals do participate.

 

On the allegations that there is rampant corruption in awarding these concessions, that has not come to the attention of my ministry. If, indeed, there is corruption, my ministry will definitely investigate it so that this issue of corruption from my officers, as well as the sector as a whole is eradicated.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Fube (Chilubi): Madam Speaker, I get the impression that the concessions, especially those given to foreigners, were given because Zambians were discriminated against. It is my prayer that we do not confuse the ordinary hunting, which usually starts in September going forward with the concession hunting, though it has delayed this year. I think I would like to believe, in some way, that the concessions window is openly advertised.

 

I think the hon. Minister may confirm whether the conditions are prohibitive or not. What are some of the conditions that go with the concessions? From what I know, most Zambians stay away from supporting their own. It is not that the Patriotic Front (PF) structured the system to give the concessions to the foreigners.

 

Mr Sikumba: Madam Speaker, I am not sure if it is a comment or question. Maybe the hon. Member for Chilubi can have a side chat with me. However, the concessions like the hon. Member rightfully put it, are open to the public at any given time. The reason our locals do not participate is beyond me. I do not understand or know. However, I will stand here to encourage the locals to participate at any given time when the bids are floated. We highly encourage Zambians to participate.

 

If there is anything prohibitive, it is something that I would probably not know. Like the hon. Member rightfully put it, the concessions are open to the public and anyone can participate. There is nothing prohibitive about them.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Chinkuli (Kanyama): Madam Speaker, although the hon. Minister has attended to my concerns as to when these concessions were issued, to whom and for how long, it is only clearly indicating that the previous regime was not so considerate with the locals.

 

Now that the New Dawn Government wants to ensure that most of these concessions and contracts are awarded to Zambians, bearing in mind that certain areas need expertise of some kind and the hon. Minister has just stated that when the concessions and contracts have been advertised, it is like locals have not applied to be part of the economic development in this area. What measures will the Government take to ensure that the locals are involved in these developmental economic issues in the ministry, bearing in mind that there are some technical aspects involved?

 

Mr Sikumba: Madam Speaker, as a way to encourage locals to participate, not only in hunting, but any other activity within the Ministry of Tourism, we have actually put in a weighting proces in terms of appraising proposals, as well as tenders for individuals who have shareholding with a Zambian and has individuals who are resident permit holders in Zambia.

 

Madam Speaker, I also take this opportunity to announce to the House that as a starting point in this hunting business, the ministry has what we call bonafide and resident hunting, which unfortunately, has taken a bit of time to commence this year. You will be hearing from us in the next couple of weeks to advise on when the bonafide and resident hunting will start. That in itself will give or rather grow the appetite for the locals to understand the whole hunting business.

 

Madam Speaker, however, it is very important that next time people see us floating concessions as a ministry – The one issue that we brought to the attention of the ministry under the Department of Parks and Wildlife is that we are encouraging all foreigners who come to participate in hunting to have a shareholding structure with the locals. That in itself, in the technical evaluation, will have a higher weigh than just a foreign outfitter.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, since there are no further supplementary questions, we will now proceed with maiden speeches. We do not know if there are any hon. Members of Parliament who are ready with maiden speeches. No one is ready.

 

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MOTION

 

ADJOURNMENT

 

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

 

Question put and agreed to.

 

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The House adjourned at 1140 hours until 1430 hours on Tuesday, 26^th October, 2021.