Wednesday, 27th October, 2021

Wednesday, 27^th October, 2021

The House met at 1430 hours

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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OATH OF ALLEGIANCE

The following hon. Member took and subscribed the Oath of Allegiance:

Aaron Daniel Mwanza

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

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QUESTION FOR ORAL ANSWER

CHIEFS PALACES CONSTRUCTION

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Mwinilunga, you can proceed, but next time it is better to inform the Chair that the hon. Member for Mufumbwe is not available and that you will be asking the question on his behalf.

64. Mr Samakayi (Mwinilunga) (on behalf of Mr Kamondo (Mufumbwe)) asked the Minister of Local Government and Rural Development:

when the construction of palaces for Senior Chief Kasempa and Chief Ingwe of Kasempa District will commence;
what the cost of constructing each palace is;
who the contractor for each palace is; and
what the time frame for the completion of each palace is.

The Minister of Health (Mrs Masebo) (on behalf of the Minister of Local Government and Rural Development Mr Nkombo)): Madam Speaker, currently, the Government is constructing chiefs’ palaces in phases with at least three palaces per province. In the first and current phase, the following palaces in the North-Western Province are under construction:

Chief Kucheka – Zambezi District;
Chieftainess Ikeleng’i – Ikeleng’i District;
Chief Mpidi – Zambezi District; and
Chief Ishindi – Zambezi District (rehabilitation).

Madam Speaker, in this regard, the construction of palaces for Senior Chief Kasempa and Chief Ingwe of Kasempa District will be implemented in the subsequent phases. The total cost of the project will be determined once the procurement process of construction has been done.

Madam Speaker, the contractors of each palace will be determined at procurement stage. The estimated time frame of the construction of the palaces will also be determined once the procurement process of the construction has been done.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Kambita (Zambezi East): Madam Speaker, in responding to the question raised by the hon. Member for Mufumbwe, the hon. Minister mentioned the palaces that are under construction and one of them that she mentioned is the palace in Mukandakunda, Lunda Capital, for Senior Chief Ishindi. Unfortunately, we the people of Zambezi East are surprised and dismayed that the hon. Minister is talking of the rehabilitation of that palace which we have not seen in reality and the question that begs answers is: Why is it that our senior most chief’s house is only receiving meagre rehabilitation works instead of constructing a whole new structure for that very important palace as other palaces are receiving? Why is it that Mukandakunda Palace is not being built from scratch so we can have a new palace?

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, I want to state that the information on Chief Ishindi’s Palace shows that it is, indeed, under rehabilitation and that it is not a completely new construction. It shows that the work done so far is only 45 per cent. I want to state that for the additional question that is being asked, I will try and see whether I can get further information on that. I do not want to mislead this important august House.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, as we ask questions, there is no additional value in repeating the same question and let us not debate. If an hon. Member repeats or asks a question by debating it first, that question will be disregarded. Please be guided accordingly.

Mr Chanda (Kanchibiya): Madam Speaker, there are cases of their royal highnesses who are forced to construct or build their own palaces. In the event that we lose them, it becomes a very big challenge to find accommodation or a palace where to take succeeding chiefs. I want to believe that this is a very important issue or matter which the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development ought to take seriously. Again, not just in one part of Zambia, but I think the Government could expedite the rate at which it is constructing palaces for their highnesses. When you go around the country, especially in the rural parts of Zambia, sometimes what we encounter is a sorry sight and this is happening to those leaders who are custodians of our culture and heritage. So, to what extent is the Government committed to expedite the rate at which it is constructing palaces for their highnesses across the country?

Madam Speaker: I hope hon. Members have taken note of the guidance to avoid their questions being disregarded.

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, the policy on the construction of palaces for our royal highnesses, noble as it may sound, has challenges. One of the challenges is that traditions and cultures differ from one chiefdom to another. Maybe, that is why it was a bit difficult for me to really handle the supplementary question, important as it was, on why in this particular case, Chief Ishindi’s Palace was being rehabilitated as opposed to the construction of a new one, as is the case in other areas. I could not give an exact answer because sometimes traditions differ to the extent that some people will tell you that you cannot construct a new place because it will have a negative bearing on their traditions and culture.

Madam Speaker, there are also issues such as when one dies, another chief who takes over will not be allowed to take the same house which was being occupied by the chief who has passed on. There are all these complications and differences because of diverse cultures and customs which hinder the Government from really being able to help certain chiefs accordingly. So, you find that people begin to even think, for example, that why is this particular chief not having a new palace constructed or why is this other chief being given this palace or why are they moving and so on and so forth.

Madam Speaker, over time, this becomes a cost constraint on the part of Government. Suffice it to say that as of now, fourteen palaces were completed and handed over. Maybe, I should say thirteen. Then, fourteen palaces were at 80 per cent and above in terms of works done and requiring completion. Five palaces were still below the 80 per cent construction status.

Madam Speaker, you will also note that this is not a small bill. We have about 240 chiefs countrywide and construction has been slow because of the very fact that they are at different places all over the country and some in the remotest parts of Zambia. Furthermore, the cost of construction has not been going down. It has been going up and so, this is why partly, you find that the pace has not been as fast as one would wish for.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker gave the Floor to Mr Samakayi.

Mr Samakayi: Madam Speaker, question No. 65.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Mwinilunga, we are still on Question No. 64. I saw that you had indicated your intention to ask a supplementary question. If you are not asking, then it is alright. We will go to the next hon. Member.

Mr Samakayi: I removed myself a long time ago, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Well, it is noted.

Mr Mung’andu (Chama South): Madam Speaker, like in the North-Western Province, our chiefs countrywide are looking to the Government to fix their accommodation problems. Is the hon. Minister in a position to come and share with this august House a list of the new chiefs or new palaces that the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government has planned to construct? We know that the Patriotic Front (PF) started these projects and those are the figures and houses that the hon. Minister has just mentioned. Is she in that position so that the people of the North-Western Province and the royal highnesses or chiefs of the North-Western Province should be able to predict when their houses will be constructed?

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, I want to state that the programme for construction of palaces did not start with the Patriotic Front (PF) Government. That is just a correction. This is an old policy which started with the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) and successive Governments have continued with the programme. Yes, the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government will continue and even do better.

Madam Speaker, as to what exactly the UPND Government has for their Royal Highness is contained in the statement which was made by His Excellency, the President of the Republic of Zambia, none other than Mr Hakainde Hichilema. When the President came to this House, he articulated the policy under the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development. One of the issues that were highlighted is the movement of the work of the Ministry of Chiefs Affairs back to the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development.

Madam Speaker, His Excellency emphasised on the need to give power back to the local level, which are the districts and chiefdoms, so that chiefs can be actively involved in the planning as well as implementation of their development agenda. To that extent, the President did say in his statement that money was now going to be removed from the centre to the local government level where the chiefs are. Apart from the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), which is the big one, the chiefs will have more money through various programmes at the district level.

Madam Speaker, other sector departments will all begin to send more money to the districts where the chiefs are, so that they can plan for their own agendas and also implement what they want. So, the construction of houses will not just be for the chiefs, but also for the residents of every district. This will be determined by the locals themselves and the monies will be sent to that level. That also includes the private sector, which will also be encouraged to get down to the districts and be involved in the construction, as well as infrastructure development of different types, including housing.

Madam Speaker, that is basically the policy of the New Dawn Government. So, to that extent, the answer is yes. The yes will be determined this Friday when the hon. Minister of Finance articulates the budget for various sectors.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mulebwa (Kafulafuta): Madam Speaker, I want to find out what the designs for the chief’s palaces are like. Are they the same designs or different? If they are different, is that not segregation, seeing that all the chiefs do the same jobs?

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, there is nothing segregative about the type of palaces that are being built. Whilst, the Government will have a common type of structure to be constructed as a palace, the issue of culture and tradition does come into effect in making the final decisions.

Madam Speaker, as I earlier stated, there are chiefs who will not allow the building of their houses using blocks, but they will insist on using certain materials. Like I said, for some of the chiefs, when one dies the house must be vacated. So, we follow the cultures and traditions in making a determination.

Madam Speaker, over the years, it has been easy to construct palaces for some chiefs because some of them may not really be fussy. I deliberately used the word fussy, but it might not be the right word. Basically, what I am saying is that some chiefs will be strict about their customs in as far as accommodation is concerned, while it may not be an issue for others. So, it becomes easy if there is no issue. However, where there is a complication, it becomes difficult on the part of the Government, which moves slowly to ensure that traditions are not broken simply because of wanting to provide accommodation.

Madam Speaker, we need to remember that there are some chiefs that do not even sleep in houses. So, we need to again take that into account. We are dealing with customs and traditions which are different from province to province.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Musonda (Lupososhi): Madam Speaker, is the acting hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development able to give us a comprehensive statement on which of the six palaces are under renovation and construction countrywide?

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, I will try. I have with me a list of palaces said to have being completed and handed over:

Name of Palace District Year of Hand Over

Chieftainess Choongo Monze 2016

Paramount Chief Mpezeni Chipata 2017

Chieftainess Shikabeta Rufunsa 2018

Senior Chief Kalilele Mushindamo 2018

Chief Mpindi Zambezi 2018

Chieftainess Mpanshya Rufunsa 2018

Chieftainess Chungu Luwingu 2019

Senior Chief Shimumbi Luwingu 2019

Chieftainess Nyanje Sinda 2019

Senior Chief Kambombo Chama 2019

Chief Shibwalya Kapila Lunte 2017

Chieftainess Serenje Serenje 2021

Chief Katyetye Isoka 2021

Senior Chieftainess Nkomesha Chongwe yet to be handed over

Madam Speaker, fourteen palaces which have being constructed, but are at 80 per cent and above:

Name of Palace District Status

Chief Mununga Nchelenge 82 percent of works done

Chief Kahare Nkeyema 90 percent of works done

Chief Kopa Mpika 80 percent of works done

Chieftainess Kanyembo Nchelenge 80 percent of works done

Chief Munkanta Kawambwa 80 percent of works done

Chief Chipepo Kapiri Mposhi 80 percent of works done

Chief Moono Mumbwa 80 percent of works done

Chieftainess Shimukunami Lufwanyama 80 percent of works done

Chief Nkambo Masaiti 80 percent of works done

Chief Mwinuna Mpongwe 80 percent of works done

Chief Imwiko Lukulu 80 percent of works done

Chief Kandala Limulunga 80 percent of works done

Chief Chona Monze 98 percent of works done

Chief Lukama Sioma 80 percent of works done

Madam Speaker, the five palaces which are below 80 per cent are as follows:

Name of Palace District Status

Chief Kucheka Zambezi 20 per cent works done

Chieftainess Ikelenge Ikeleng’i 30 per cent works done

Chief Ishindi (under rehabilitation) Zambezi 45 per cent works done;

Chief Mukupa Kaoma Mporokoso 35 per cent works done;

Chieftainess Mwenda Chikankata 50 per cent works done.

Madam Speaker, additionally, the ministry will also commence Phase II after completing the construction of all the palaces in the first phase as read out. This is in line with the Government policy of not embarking on new projects before completing the current projects.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

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MOTIONS

ALLOW RETENTION OF LOCAL REVENUE FOR INTERNAL DEVELOPMENT

Mr Simumba (Nakonde): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that this House urges the Government to allow local authorities countrywide, to retain at least 5 per cent of locally generated revenue for internal development.

Madam Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Ms Chisenga (Mambilima): Madam Speaker, I second the Motion.

Mr Simumba: Madam Speaker, I am really grateful to you for according me this honour and rare privilege of being the first hon. Member to move a Private Member’s Motion in the Thirteenth National Assembly. It is an honour to me that I do not take it lightly. It has been the cry of our people, not only in Nakonde District, but countrywide, that the districts that Government collects so much revenue from, remain undeveloped or underdeveloped. This, therefore, is a national Motion which requires the support of all the hon. Members of this august House.

Madam Speaker, in order to give context to the Motion, let me begin by defining what locally generated revenue means. Locally generated revenue means all the revenue collected by the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) through various taxes from a particular district. It also includes revenue collected by the National Road Fund Agency (NRFA) through toll fees. For instance, according to an article in the Zambia Daily Mail of 7^th April, 2021, the ZRA collects an average of K200 million per month from Nakonde Border Post, which is in my constituency. Similarly, it was reported by the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC) that K1.4 million was collected by the ZRA from Kazungula Border Post for the period of May to August, 2021.

Madam Speaker, further, on Friday, 15^th October, 2021, the hon. Acting Minister of Finance and National Planning, in responding to a question asked by the hon. Member for Mufumbwe, informed this august House that the ZRA collected K4.3 billion from Chirundu Border Post from January to August, 2021. It is this revenue that we are asking the Government to allow local authorities countrywide to retain at least 5 per cent of the revenue, so that the district where it is coming from can have its fair share of development.

Madam Speaker, through this Motion, we are proposing a revenue sharing mechanism that will allow local authorities in the districts which house revenue collection points to be given 5 per cent of the revenue collected from that district for the development of that district so that the district can directly benefit from the revenue collected from that district. This will ensure that the district where there is a border post, the district where there is mine and the district where there is a tollgate, benefit from the revenue collected from that district.

Madam Speaker, I am of a considered view that this revenue sharing mechanism will spur accelerated rural and urban development.

Madam Speaker, the Local Government System in Zambia is provided for by the Constitution of Zambia. Cap 1 of the Laws of Zambia, Article 152 (1) of the Constitution of Zambia empowers local authorities in Zambia to administer and oversee all projects and programmes in each district. The functions of the local authorities, as provided for in the Constitution of Zambia are:

construction and maintenance of local roads;
street lighting;
construction of markets;
motor vehicle licensing; and
collection of levies and toll fees, among others.

Madam Speaker, to provide the services as mandated by the Constitution of Zambia and various Acts of Parliament, local authorities depend on locally generated revenue, grants from the Central Government such as the Local Government Equalisation Fund (LGEF) as well as the Constituency Development Fund (CDF).

Madam Speaker, in as much as the local authorities generate revenue through small levies and charges and also, receive the above grants from the Central Government, the allocations are not adequate to have a significant impact on development at district level, hence, this proposal of a revenue sharing mechanism to retain, at least, 5 per cent of locally generated revenue for the development of the districts where the revenue is collected from.

Madam Speaker, the House may wish to note that demand for the service provision far outstrip the resources the local authorities currently collect and those that are allocated to the local authorities by the Central Government. The financial challenges are worsened by the removal from local authorities of functions such as motor vehicle licensing, which is performed by the Road Transport and Safety Agency (RTSA) and collection of toll fees, which is performed by the NRFA.

Madam Speaker, the ZRA collects an array of taxes which include company tax, withholding tax, export levy, import duty and Value Added Tax (VAT), among others, from different entities such as mining houses, tour operators, business houses and border posts. The revenue collected is remitted to the Treasury Single Account (TSA) known, as the Control 99. The same applies to the revenue collected by the NRFA through toll fees.

Madam Speaker, it is regrettable that despite districts such as Nakonde, Chirundu and Kazungula, which are contributing significantly to the National Treasury through the collection of revenue, there is very little tangible trickle-down effect to the welfare of the people of these districts. The areas are lagging behind in infrastructure development and the service provision.

Madam Speaker, there has been no tangible development in Nakonde District, yet Nakonde Border Post boasts of contributing about K200 million per month to the National Treasury. The district still looks like it is just recovering from a world war. The township roads in Nakonde have been in a deplorable state for a long time. Further, Mwinilunga District where Kasenseli Gold Mine is situated is a sorry site, to say the least. This state of affairs is not only inherent in the aforementioned districts, but it is a countrywide challenge affecting many, if not all the districts. Cleary, there is a need to devise ways of revenue sharing.

Madam Speaker, if what this Motion is proposing is actualised, Nakonde District that contributes K200 million per month would receive 5 per cent of K200 million, which translates to K10 million per month. I repeat that if what this Motion is proposing is actualised, Nakonde District that contributes K200 million per month would receive 5 per cent of K200 million, which translates to K10 million per month. If Nakonde received this kind of allocation per month, would we fail to develop the district? I assure you that Nakonde can be one of the most developed districts in Zambia.

Madam Speaker, this Motion does not just focus on border towns, but it also includes districts where mining activities are taking place such as Mwinilunga where Kasenseli Gold Mine is situated and from which the Government can generate a lot of revenue. I, therefore, expect the hon. Member for Mwinilunga to support this Motion. I also expect the hon. Minister of Education, who is the hon. Member for Chirundu, to support this Motion.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simumba: Madam Speaker, the Minister of Mines and Minerals Development, Hon. Paul Kabuswe, who is also the hon. Member for Chililabombwe, is fully aware of how undeveloped Kasumbalesa area of Chililabombwe District is.

Madam Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member’s time expired.

Madam Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Ms Chisenga: Now, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity to second this important Motion. I thank the hon. Member of Parliament for Nakonde for moving this very progressive Motion, which affects the entire Zambia.

Madam Speaker, allow me to recognise that revenue collection comes from the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) border points, tollgates and other mining facilities that we have in the country, some of which are Kasumbalesa Border Post, Kazungula Border Post, Chirundu Border Post, Kalumbila Mine, Kasenseli Gold Mine and the Sesheke Border Post. If local authorities were allowed to retain 5 per cent from all these sources of revenue that I have mentioned, we could actually have revenue that would cater for the provision of services in our communities and constituencies, such as the maintenance of roads, street lighting, construction of markets and vehicle licensing, just to mention a few. Local authorities are struggling to fund themselves to provide these basic services that I have just mentioned. I am of the view that once 5 per cent is rendered to local authorities, we shall make progressive amendments in our communities.

Madam Speaker, Zambia is a signatory to the United Nations (UN) Agenda for 2030. To this effect, we cannot achieve the Sustainable Development Goals (SDGs) if at all we are not allowed to retain some of the revenue that we are seeking at this moment. If we are to maintain the middle-income status that we require as mother Zambia, we should support this Motion.

Madam Speaker, allow me to conclude by mentioning that the capacity of the local authorities need to be enhanced for them to be effective in carrying out their mandate.

Madam Speaker, I support this Motion not because it has been moved by a member of the Patriotic Front (PF), but because it is progressive and everyone will benefit. I believe some people are in mining areas and border areas, and others are in areas where there are tollgates in the constituencies where they come from.

Madam Speaker, I beg to second this Motion.

Madam Speaker: Before we start debating, I wish to inform hon. Members and the House that the respective leadership of political groupings have already given me the names of debaters. This is just for management of time so that we have an effective debate. So, consequently, I will call the debaters.

Mr Jamba (Mwembezhi): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member of Parliament who has moved this Motion and the seconder for seconding it.

Madam Speaker, first and foremost, the concerns which have been raised by the hon. Members of Parliament are genuine and good. However, I want to mention that even if these concerns are so good and nice, they are misplaced, and I will illustrate that to my colleagues. For example, when people in a village kill a very big ox for a celebration, but you call them to where you have killed a rabbit, who will eat a rabbit when a big animal has been slaughtered? Nobody.

Madam Speaker, we must talk about decentralisation. If the Motion was urging the Government to take an affirmative direction so that we can change the Constitution and decentralise, I was going to be the first one to support it.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Jamba: Why should we do things in piecemeal? For instance, just because revenue is collected from the border in Chililabombwe, then you want to change the law and enforce the Government to do something. That is not the way governance works. We must look at the bigger picture. What is it that we would like to do which is going to benefit everyone? That which is going to benefit everyone is decentralisation, so, we need to change the Constitution. In case hon. Members do not know, council chairpersons are now just there as a formality because they are not part of the Executive. They cannot sign anything. So, if they cannot do anything and do not even have the power to sign cheques, why should we get this money and take it to them? When we decentralise, we will have mini-parliaments in provinces and constituency assemblies, and the council chairpersons will then be executive chairpersons who will be able to sign cheques and have authority. Thereafter, everything being talked about like road tax, money for electricity tariffs, water bills and everything else will be managed locally, and this is going to improve Nakonde.

Madam Speaker, for argument’s sake, just because there is a border post in Nakonde, then, the Government should implement this idea, but what about towns like Sikongo? What is going to happen? Our colleagues want all the money collected from the tollgate in Chibombo to be retained in Chibombo, yet the people who pass through that tollgate stay on the Copperbelt. Are we being fair? We are not being fair. So, let us talk about decentralisation. This New Dawn Government means well, and by Friday, everyone who is on that side is going to join us so that we change the Constitution.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Jamba: Madam Speaker, when the Motion for changing the Constitution comes through, we want all Patriotic Front (PF) hon. Members and everyone else to support it, so that we change it and look at decentralisation. This issue of looking at things in piecemeal by touching this today and that tomorrow must stop.

Madam Speaker, hon. Members might not know that some people in mining areas were crying to have royalties remain where the mining areas are. They will also come with a Motion to compel the Government to look at the mining industry.

Madam Speaker, this issue is non-controversial, but all I am saying is that it is misplaced. At this time, we cannot compel the Government to allow local authorities countrywide, to retain 5 per cent of locally generated revenue. What is 5 per cent, by the way? 5 per cent of what? A company may tell the Government that it did not make any profit so, there is no 5 per cent and how will the Government then pay the nurses and police officers? Let us look at the bigger picture.

Madam Speaker, without wasting much time, I do not support this Motion because there is not much to discuss about it, as the whole issue is about decentralisation.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Madam Speaker, I thank you most sincerely for allowing me to contribute to this very important Motion.

Madam Speaker, I will be a very sad Member of Parliament if this Motion is viewed from the perspective of who has moved it. I will be a very sad Member of Parliament if senior Members of Parliament like Hon. Felix Mutati, who was in the Cabinet when the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) Government approved the policy of decentralisation, does not support this Motion. I will be a very sad Member of Parliament if Hon. Sylvia Masebo, a very seasoned Member of Parliament, does not support this very progressive Motion moved by the hon. Member of Parliament for Nakonde. I will be very disappointed as Member of Parliament for Kamfinsa if our colleagues from the Ruling Party view this Motion as a political Motion. This is a developmental Motion and I am going to illustrate why all hon. Members of Parliament in this House today need to support it. Hon. Frank Tayali wants development in Ndola Central. I am going to illustrate how that development will come in Ndola Central if he supports this Motion.

Madam Speaker, on page 51 –

Mr Kambita: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kambita: Madam Speaker, thank you very much for giving me an opportunity to raise this very important point of order.

Madam Speaker, I may not have a copy of the Standing Orders in my hands to cite the Standing Orders, but the hon. Member who is on the Floor right now is continuously debating other hon. Members of Parliament, which is against our rules. Is he in order to continuously mention names of hon. Members of Parliament when our rules do not permit that?

I seek your serious ruling, Madam Speaker.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Since the hon. Member who has raised the point of order has not cited any Standing Order, privilege or procedure that has been breached, the hon. Member on the Floor will continue to debate. However, please, bear in mind that you do not debate other hon. Members of Parliament.

Mr Kang’ombe: Much obliged, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, as I contribute to the Motion, I know that I only have five minutes remaining. Article 147 (2) of the Constitution of Zambia, under part II, states as follows:

“The concurrent and exclusive functions of the national, provincial and local government levels are as listed in the Annex and as prescribed.”

Madam Speaker, for the benefit of the House today, the exclusive functions refer to what the hon. Member of Parliament for Nakonde was referring to. The exclusive functions of local authorities are the ones which Hon. Simumba was referring to, one of them being motor vehicle licensing, levying of toll fees as well as other sources of revenue which should be levied by the local authority.

Madam Speaker, the mover of the Motion is actually being very modest in the context that he is only asking for 5 per cent. The Constitution says exclusive functions, meaning motor vehicle revenue should be collected by the local authorities, but the mover is only asking for 5 per cent.

Madam Speaker, in supporting this Motion, allow me to refer to page 51 of the President’s Speech that he presented when he came to this House and the President stated as follows:

“We are also committed to actualising our national aspirations for a decentralised governance system as enshrined in our Constitution. Government will, therefore, accelerate the implementation of decentralisation of functions from Central Government to the local authorities with matching resources.”

Madam Speaker, Hon. Simumba is prescribing the matching resources and he is demanding a minimum of 5 per cent to get started.

Madam Speaker, I agree with the President. The third paragraph, on page fifty-one, reads as follows:

“We will strengthen the capacity of our local authorities to enable them collect their revenues and deliver public services to our people in an effective and efficient manner”.

The hon. Member for Nakonde, in moving this Motion that I am supporting, is basically referring to what was captured in the President’s Speech. The hon. Members of Parliament who are gathered here today both from the left and the right should not view this Motion as one from a Patriotic Front (PF) hon. Member of Parliament. The President of the Republic of Zambia has put it very clearly, in black and white. I hope that we look at our history as a country. In 2002, we adopted the Decentralisation Policy; in 2012 the policy was revised; and in 2016, the Constitution gave birth to these provisions. I hope that when time comes to vote for this Motion, our hon. Colleagues from your left and my hon. Colleagues from your right will not look at hon. Simumba as an hon. Member of Parliament on the PF ticket. They should look at the content of the Motion, which, in my opinion, seeks to give resources to our people in our various constituencies.

Madam Speaker, if we have 5 per cent of money generated in Kitwe remaining in Kitwe, we are going to work on the Chibuluma Road in Kitwe. If we have 5 per cent of the money collected in Nakonde remaining in Nakonde, we are going to work on the roads in Nakonde. If we have 5 per cent, in addition to what other mechanisms the Government will come up with, I am very certain that we are going to deliver services.

Madam Speaker, I stand here supporting the Motion because I know that it will result in development for our people. No matter how good our English is in Parliament, for as long as there are no resources in our constituencies, our people will not spare us. I hope that hon. Members of Parliament who are asking what 5 per cent is will remember that they have a mandate to deliver development to the people. I stand, therefore, to support this Motion and I am sure the people of Kamfinsa are smiling where they are that their Member of Parliament has spoken.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mwambazi (Bwana Mkubwa): Madam Speaker, I thank you for giving me this chance to contribute to debate on the Motion on the Floor.

Madam Speaker, first and foremost, we need to understand how the Government is set up and how these local authorities get their funding. In essence, we are saying that we need to retain 5 per cent from revenue generated within a district and yet the same fund which is collected by, say, the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) goes to the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, and local authorities get grants from there. So, it is the same fund which we are saying we should retain. Unless we are saying that if we retain the 5 per cent, we forfeit the grants which these local authorities get from the Ministry of Finance and National Planning. Then we are saying let us try and see how we can mitigate these issues.

Madam Speaker, to that effect, I submit that we have had a lot of challenges in terms of accountability with local authorities and yet we want to give them some more funds to account for. Yet again, the same local authorities have many functions of how they can collect revenue, for example, through garbage collection, but do not do that. They have let private companies do such a function where they can generate funds.

Madam Speaker, local authorities have many avenues where they can collect funds according to Article 152 of the Constitution, which they have been mandated to do.

Madam Speaker, for me, we are just going round circles. The issue we should look at is decentralisation and see to it that some of these things and functions are taken to the local authorities. Then, for instance, the grants which they receive from the Ministry of Finance and National Planning can be administered directly to the districts when decentralisation is done.

Madam Speaker, I am standing here firmly representing the people of Bwana Mkubwa and I am not taking this Motion politically. We should just look at it fairly and see to it that justice is done in this House regardless of our political affiliations. This is a straightforward matter and issue which we should just look at.

Madam Speaker, for instance, if we say the people of Nakonde have generated K10 million and we have a 5 per cent retained there and we forfeit the grant they get, can they operate effectively? They will not be able to do that. So, we are not going to take from the same pot twice. We reduce and then again we get the grant. There is also funding which comes from the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development through various lines.

Madam Speaker, I think it is important for us to ensure that we look at this thing effectively as hon. Members of this House. This Motion, for me, is not progressive and I do not support it.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shakafuswa (Mandevu): Madam Speaker, I thank you for according me this opportunity to support the Motion on the Floor moved by my hon. Colleague, the hon. Member of Parliament for Nakonde.

Madam Speaker, this Motion is apolitical, to beg the word from the former Speaker, the Right Hon. Dr Patrick Matibini. This Motion is centred on decentralisation. I heard others talk about decentralisation and shoot down this Motion which talks about giving matching resources to local authorities in order for them to carry out service delivery.

Madam Speaker, in 2014...

Mr Jamba: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Jamba: Madam Speaker, I rise on a very serious point of order. The Motion is written on the Order Paper. It is specific. According to Standing Order 34, you should not divert from the Motion which is being tabled in the House. Is the hon. Member in order to be talking about another Motion by saying that this Motion is based on decentralisation when it is talking about 5 per cent?

Is he in order to be misleading the nation, the House here and himself, that he is talking about decentralisation when the Motion says 5 per cent? I seek your serious ruling, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: The hon. Member for Mandevu will stick to the Motion on the Order Paper and not talk about issues which are not on the Order Paper.

Hon. Member: On a point of Order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: May the hon. Member for Mandevu proceed. We do not have much time.

Mr Shakafuswa: Madam Speaker, the retention of 5 per cent of the tax in districts as per the Motion talks about decentralisation.

Madam Speaker, allow me to go back and say that in 2014, Section 45(3) of the then Local Government Act No. 22 of 1991, which made provisions for the local authorities entitlement to seven different grants, was repealed. Consequently, it was replaced by the Local Government Act No. 12 of 2014, which collapsed all grants into the Local Government Equalisation Fund. It gave birth to the 5 per cent of the annual income tax as a vertical share of the National Budget to local authorities, which was earmarked to fund the Local Government Equalisation Fund.

Madam Speaker, again, this piece of legislation was repealed by the Local Government Act No. 2 of 2019, which does not provide foe the 5 per cent threshold for local authorities. It, therefore, leaves local authorities at the mercy of the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, who then decides how much percentage to give to local authorities.

Madam Speaker, I support this Motion because it gives credibility to councils which, currently, remain with unpredictable budgets. Councils operate on the Medium Term Expenditure Framework (MTEF) budget which is not predictable in terms of funding from the Ministry of Finance and National Planning. So, through this Motion, councils will be able to provide and improve service delivery in their localities.

Madam Speaker, decentralisation or retention of 5 per cent of revenue collected will allow districts to embark on development which is locally driven. This will create employment in districts. I know that we have youths who used to survive from the streets and have been chased from there. The retention of 5 per cent of revenue will help councils to undertake development and, in turn, provide employment opportunities for the many youths in the different parts of this country.

Madam Speaker, I support the Motion.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Samakayi (Mwinilunga): Madam Speaker, I know that the mover of the Motion was pleading with me to support him, but I will tell him that had this been 2009, I would have supported him. Currently, Zambia has gone past the content of this Motion. We have already done that.

Madam Speaker, the issue of financing local government is a complex and daunting exercise. It is daunting in the sense that our economy continues to be constrained. At the moment, we are sitting at a stage where 60 per cent of our revenue is going to personal emoluments, about 30 per cent to constitutional obligations and only 10 per cent remains.

Madam Speaker, I also want to say exactly what Hon. Jamba said. The issue the hon. Member has brought is already dealt with in decentralisation. This is why I said that had this been 2009, I would have agreed with him. Currently, 5 per cent of the revenue that is collected by the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) in terms of Pay-As-You-Earn (PAYE) goes to local government through the Local Government Equalisation Fund, and 80 per cent of that goes to personal emoluments in councils and 20 per cent to development.

Madam Speaker, I think it is important that the departments of the Government that are dealing with issues like decentralisation come and appraise hon. Members of Parliament with information so that they are abreast with what is happening on the ground, especially with the implementation of very important policies like decentralisation.

Madam Speaker, what we are remaining with now is the issue of coming up with an inter-governmental fiscal architecture. This will enable the Central Government to devolve certain revenue sources to local authorities so that they can manage those sources of revenue on their own. I think that is the stage we are, and there has been political good will from the New Dawn Government.

Madam Speaker, we got assurance from His Excellency the President when he came down here. He said he is going to ensure that decentralisation takes root. He also promised that there is going to be increased funding to districts through the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). Perhaps even the 5 per cent that the hon. Member is talking about is little as compared to what may come to local authorities.

Madam Speaker, perhaps what we should be talking about now is the issue of broadening the revenue base for local authorities. That is where we should be directing our energies. I think the New Dawn Government has opened the door by creating the Ministry of Small and Medium Enterprise Development. That is the vehicle that will open up industrialisation in districts. We already have some industries that are coming up that will broaden the revenue base for councils and districts.

Madam Speaker, what we need to do is to carry out a strategic exercise of mapping our resources in chiefdoms and districts. Currently, there are very few chiefdoms which have chiefdom strategic development plans, and Chief Chibwika’s Chiefdom, where Kasenseli is, is one of them. There are a few chiefs in the Central Province and the Southern Province, who have developed chiefdom strategic development plans.

Madam Speaker, this gives citizens an opportunity to know their resource endowment in their areas. The introduction of the Ministry of Small and Medium Enterprise Development will now realign the people’s thinking in those areas to look at where the resources are so that they can exploit the resources that are in their areas.

Madam Speaker, from what I have explained, there is no Motion so to speak because what is in the Motion has already been done by the Government. I think that this Motion must be withdrawn. It should not even take us to the extent of voting. Credit should be given to the Government for already doing what my hon. Colleague has brought to this House.

Mr Kang’ombe: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Kamfinsa, I have not recognised you.

The hon. Member for Mwinilunga may proceed.

Mr Samakayi: Madam Speaker, I think let us give the Government chance to do what is supposed to be done so that it finances local government in a manner that is prudent and equitable and will benefit everyone as opposed to this method of saying that because my district has gold, I need the revenue. No. Equity must be applied everywhere.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapyanga (Mpika Central): Madam Speaker, allow me to state, from the outset, that I support this Motion not because it has been moved by a fellow hon. Member from your left, but because it is a progressive Motion. I wish this Motion was moved by Hon. Jamba, who has misled this House by rising on a point of order stating a wrong Standing Order No. 34. I wish he was the one who had moved this Motion. I was still going to support it with all my organs.

Laughter

Mr Kapyanga: Madam Speaker, the President of this Republic, His Excellency, Mr Hakainde Hichilema has been very consistent with taking money to constituencies and districts from Lusaka where, according to him, thieves are. This Motion is in line with the position of the President. We are all here and we have sworn allegiance to the President. The President has provided direction and the direction is that money should go back to constituencies and districts. This is what Hon. Simumba sought this House to do.

Madam Speaker, this Motion, –

Mr Jamba: What do you mean?

Mr Kapyanga: Hon. Jamba mulechefyako wine naimwe

Laughter

Mr Kapyanga: Madam Speaker, the tendency of our people opposing everything for as long as it has been moved by an hon. Member who does not belong to their political party is not part of patriotism.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapyanga: Madam Speaker, what Hon. Simumba has done is in the realm of patriotism, retention of 5 per cent of locally generated revenue. He has not talked about Nakonde only because that is where he comes from. He has talked about each and every district even Mpika where I come from, and Mpika is not even a border town. He has talked about each and every area. I, therefore, urge my fellow hon. Members of Parliament to always, ...

Mr Jamba: Finally!

Mr Kapyanga: Not finally Jamba, I am still debating.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, we are debating an important issue. Let us allow the hon. Member for Mpika Central to debate. Please, let there be no interjections. Hon. Member for Mpika Central, you may proceed.

Mr Kapyanga: Madam Speaker, thank you so much for the protection. Before I was interrupted, I was saying that what Hon. Simumba has done today; to move this Motion, is actually in the realm of patriotism. He has not just talked about Nakonde as a beneficiary from the proposed 5 per cent retention of locally generated revenue for internal development, but all the other areas. Furthermore, it is in line with what the President has been saying. He has been very consistent in stating that money has to be taken back to constituencies and districts.

Madam Speaker, I want to urge my fellow hon. Members to always support what benefits our people, and not what benefits our political parties and our political masters. Our people are our number one masters. Whatever is progressive and has been brought before this House must be supported because that is what we are here for. We are paid through taxpayers’ money and as such, we have to ensure that we have a heart for them. What Hon. Simumba has done is such a good thing and I am sure posterity will judge him romantically.

Laughter

Mr Kapyanga: Madam, I say so because he has moved a Motion that would have benefited the people, and I am sure it will still benefit the people because I know it is going through. Other hon. Members will come on board to support it like I am doing. Even from your right hand side, some will come on board to support the Motion because they have realised that even in areas where they come from, they need the retention of 5 per cent locally generated revenue because it is about implementing various projects

Hon. Government Member: Question!

Mr Kapyanga: Madam Speaker, I urge my fellow hon. Members to support this Motion and ensure that it goes through. We are not going to be doing our people any good if we do not support such a progressive and well couched Motions that will actually benefit the people of Zambia, which includes those from Kazungula, Chirundu, Kasumbalesa and the Copperbelt. They would all benefit if the 5 per cent retention of locally generated income is effected.

Mr Kapyanga: Madam Speaker,

Mr Jamba: Finally.

Mr Kapyanga: Hon. Jamba please, we are served with water and not wine.

Laughter

Mr Kapyanga: Madam Speaker, as I conclude, I would like to call upon all hon. Members of this august House to support the Motion.

I thank you.

Mr B. Mpundu (Nkana): Madam Speaker, thank you so much for giving me this opportunity. I am afraid this looks like a war between the right and the left. Being an Independent Member of Parliament, I want to, perhaps, sound very independent over the matter being discussed. Therefore, let me rather draw the hon. Members to these observations. When I met the Seventh President, he mentioned something that I went home proud about and excited. He told me that I will make you a star Member of Parliament because I will give you a million dollars in your constituency as Constituency Development Fund (CDF). I told my wife I will serve three terms. When I came to the Floor of this House, I said I will break the one term jinx in Nkana Parliamentary Constituency because I will have enough money to take to Nkana what the people desire. Now, the biggest problem that we have in this country seems to be, in my thoughts, the distribution of resources, which is money in this case.

Madam Speaker, when I came in this afternoon, I raised a point of order wanting to ride on Standing Order 134, a Matter of Public Importance or Urgency because I have a challenge in my constituency on the Chibuluma Central Street where criminals are now attacking people almost on a daily basis because the trucks that move up north either to the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) or the North-Western are moving at 10 km/h because of the poor state of this road. Now, the people in my constituency are asking me why a road which passes where Mopani Copper Mines sits must be in such as bad state that it puts the lives of people at risk.

Madam Speaker, perhaps, all of you hon. Members are aware that not long ago, there was an article in foreign media that named this road as the fourth most dangerous road on the continent. For me, it is not a question of whether we should introduce 5 per cent retention of locally generated revenue or otherwise. Perhaps, this discussion, in my thoughts, has come too early. My thinking is that maybe it should have come after Friday. By the way, if I had the power, I would have deleted tomorrow off the calendar because I cannot wait for Friday. I have promised an hon. Member of Parliament a bottle of Glenfiddich whisky because he has promised me that what I will hear on Friday will be unprecedented.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr B. Mpundu: Hon, Members, do not be too excited. For me, the anticipation of Friday cannot be understated. We desire money to come to our constituency because money is sitting in Lusaka. So, my view is, perhaps there must be a point where we must all agree. Be it that we reframe what we are discussing today, call it in a particular fashion, but we must all desire to have money go to our people.

Madam Speaker, I have trouble because I come from a very rich constituency; Nkana. It houses almost 90 per cent of the business spectrum in Kitwe. We are talking about two mining houses which are Mopani Copper Mines (MCM) and Konkola Copper Mines (KCM) Plc and almost 90 per cent of the industries are sitting in Nkana. Yet, my young people in Nkana are the most unemployed. The infrastructure in Nkana is the worst. So, people have been asking why the corporate entities do not help us develop our constituency. You see, we go with a begging bowl to these companies because there is no law that is coded that compels these companies to give back to the communities other than the so-called community social responsibility, which is not guided by law.

Madam Speaker, in my thoughts, what we must be doing is fine-tuning our laws like we have seen happen in other regions. If you go in the neighbouring Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC), a company prospecting for minerals is given conditions for mining in that country. The conditions state that the company must do a, b, c, d as part of its responsibility to the community in the DRC. Hon. Members, those are things that we must focus ourselves on, but not to take away from what is being discussed today, I think that we must arrive at a point where we must unanimously agree on the need to take resources to the people. For me, if this is not the avenue, let us then agree for the best avenue so that money can go to the people. I am hoping Friday will respond to my requests and needs.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, I, therefore, put it to hon. Members that all of us must pre-occupy ourselves with what the people who sent us here want. There is a need for us to take money where it matters because there have been a lot of arguments even in this House about one region being favoured over other regions in terms of the allocation of developmental activities. The answer to those disparities in terms of the distribution of development lie in us finding a solution on how we are going to take the money to the people who brought us to this House.

Madam Speaker, these are the thoughts I wanted to share in debating this matter.

I thank you, Madam.

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Madam Speaker, I thank you for giving me chance to make some remarks on the Motion that is on the Floor. I thank the mover of the Motion for bringing it here. I tend to think that we should not blame him. Instead, we should encourage him even though I do not agree with him at all. However, it is the spirit of being an activist that I welcome from him.

Madam Speaker, I think the first thing is to clarify what he means because it is not very clear from this Motion. This Motion is about allowing local authorities countrywide to retain at least 5 per cent of locally generated revenue. The question is what kind of revenue is the hon. Member talking about? Article 161 of the Constitution states as follows:

“A local Authority is competent to levy, impose, recover and retain local taxes as prescribed.”

Madam Speaker, what are those local taxes? The local taxes include market fees, bus stations, parking fees and notice of marriage fees. They also include other items like licenses, levies, permits, charges and so on and so forth. As far as these sources of revenues are concerned, the one that the Constitution empowers local authorities to charge, local authorities take 100 per cent of that and not 5 per cent. They collect 100 per cent of the revenue. So, if the hon. Member is talking about the revenue as prescribed in the Constitution, then, there is no issue because those revenues are collected in totality without sharing with the local government. However, I get the impression that when he was presenting, he was not talking about the local taxes. He was talking about taxes in general.

Madam Speaker, I tend to agree with hon. Colleagues who have said that the most important thing is decentralisation. First of all, decentralisation means that responsibilities are taken to the local councils and then, you give matching resources for that decentralisation to take place. That is the most key thing. If he is saying that 5 per cent of all the State taxes that are collected by the local councils must schemed by them, there is a risk of causing confusion and inequity. For example, he talked about Nakonde collecting a lot of revenue of which he wants to get 5 per cent. The question is: Is that revenue really generated by the people of Nakonde? The answer is definitely not because some of the people who are paying those taxes live in Mufulira, Chipata and Kabwe. So, are you saying that these people who live in different places where they also need money, that money must now be collected by Nakonde? Is that what you are saying? If you are arguing like that, then, definitely, I would argue that it is a wrong approach.

Madam Speaker, that is why when we focus on decentralisation, the issue now becomes that of saying how much resources are we going to give on equitable basis because assuming that Nakonde collects those revenues, what about Isoka? What is going to happen to Isoka? Will it have enough revenue for development? What about Mafinga? What about Katete? So, the answer does not lie in what you are talking about. Maybe, partially, yes. The real answer lies in how do we take the revenues of the country and share them equitably across that country so that even small councils like Kalabo or Chibombo will also have adequate revenue to deal with the key issues that we want to see in our country such as proper roads, water and children’s education. That being the case, I also want to agree with the colleagues who said, “hon. Member, hold your fire.” Let us wait and see. It is just tomorrow, after that, it is Friday.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Let us see the issue of how the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government is going to transfer resources equitably to every local council in the country and not just those who may be deemed to be generating revenues. So, it is just the day after tomorrow then we can look and say whether this matter is still relevant. I suspect it may not be relevant anymore.

Mr Mufalali: There will be apologies.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, in conclusion, this Motion first of all, has confusion as to what it means whether it is the taxes that are really collected at the local level that the hon. Member was talking about or whether he is talking about sharing revenues. We have to be systematic in the manner in which we do things. Even if it is sharing revenues, there is a lot of thought that needs to go into that. The days of standing up and declaring that, “tomorrow, I am going to do a university there, the other day I will do a new boma there, the other day a new province there”, are gone.

Hon. UPND Members: Gone!

Dr Musokotwane: We must be systematic in the way we do things so that we eliminate confusion. The key thing is to provide resources to our people and I believe that this UPND Government is just going to do that.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simumba: Madam Speaker, I want to begin by thanking the seconder for the excellent manner in which she seconded the Motion. I also want to thank all the hon. Members who have debated and those who have not debated, those who supported or did not support the Motion. Let me also thank the Clerk and her staff for the professional manner in which they facilitated the Motion.

Madam Speaker, the need to devise a revenue sharing mechanism to accelerate development cannot be overemphasised.

Hon. PF Members: Yes!

Mr Simumba: I demonstrated when I was moving the Motion how a place like Nakonde can easily get a K10 million allocation from what the ZRA makes from Nakonde per month. Madam Speaker, this amount can definitely accelerate the development of the district.

Hon. PF Members: Yes!

Mr Simumba: Madam Speaker, I cannot imagine how much impact a revenue sharing mechanism would have on a place like Mwinilunga where a lot of revenue is expected to be generated from the gold deposits.

Madam Speaker, allow me also, once again, to state that this is a non-partisan and non-controversial Motion. It is a national Motion that requires the support of every hon. Member who is here.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Question that this House urges the Government to allow local authorities, countrywide, to retain at least 5% of locally generated revenue for internal development put and negatived.

REPORT OF THE PARLIAMENTARY SELECT COMMITTEE TO SCRUTINISE THE PRESIDENTIAL APPOINTMENT OF MR MULILO DIMAS KABESHA TO SERVE AS ATTORNEY-GENERAL, MR MARSHAL MUBAMBE MUCHENDE TO SERVE AS SOLICITOR-GENERAL, MR FELIX NKULUKUSA TO SERVE AS SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY AND DR DENNY HAMACHILA KALYALYA TO SERVE AS GOVERNOR OF THE BANK OF ZAMBIA

Brig-Gen. Sitwala (Kaoma Central): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that this House do adopt the Report of the Parliamentary Select Committee appointed to scrutinise the Presidential appointment of Mr Mulilo Dimas Kabesha to serve as Attorney-General, Mr Marshal Mubambe Muchende to serve as Solicitor-General, Mr Felix Nkulukusa to serve as Secretary to the Treasury and Dr Denny Hamachila Kalyalya to serve as Governor of the Bank of Zambia, for the First Session of the Thirteenth National Assembly, laid on the Table of the House on Tuesday, 26^th October, 2021.

Madam Speaker, the appointments are made pursuant to Articles 177, 179, 183 and 214 of the Constitution of Zambia, Chapter One of the Laws of Zambia. The said Articles empower the Republican President to appoint an Attorney-General, Solicitor-General, Secretary to the Treasury and Bank of Zambia Governor subject to ratification by the National Assembly.

Madam Speaker, the Committee notes the pivotal role that the Attorney-General and the Solicitor-General play in the dispensation and administration of justice, ensuring good governance and upholding the rule of law in the country.

Madam Speaker, your Committee –

Mr Chitotela: On a point of procedure, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Order!

A point of procedure is raised.

Mr Chitotela: Madam Speaker, I was thinking that as we are moving the Motion to ratify the Presidential appointments, the mover of the Motion was supposed to move the Motion and then resume his seat to allow the Speaker to call for the secondment of the Motion. Is this the new procedure under the new Standing Orders where Motions for ratification of appointments will no longer be seconded?

I seek your guidance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much, hon. Member for Pambashe. You are quite right. The hon. Member for Kaoma Central has been anxious, I am sure, to conclude this matter. Maybe, that is why he did not wait for the same to be seconded.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: After he introduced the Motion, he should have resumed his seat and then, we would have proceeded, then, he would have gone into the debate later. So, since he has now resumed his seat, it now remains for me to ask whether the Motion is seconded.

Ms Chisenga (Mambilima): Madam Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

Brig-Gen Sitwala: Madam Speaker, in satisfying Hon. Chitotela’s request, I want to repeat that the appointments are made pursuant to Sections 177, 179, 183 and 214 of the Constitution of Zambia, CAP 1 of the Laws of Zambia. The said Articles empower the Republican President to appoint an Attorney-General, Solicitor-General, Secretary to the Treasury and Bank of Zambia Governor, subject to ratification by the National Assembly.

Madam Speaker, the Committee notes the pivotal role that the Attorney-General and Solicitor-General play in the dispensation and administration of justice, ensuring good governance and upholding the rule of law in the country.

Madam Speaker, your Committee also notes the important role that the Secretary to the Treasury and the Bank of Zambia Governor play in ensuring fiscal discipline and the strengthening of the country’s economy.

Madam Speaker, in this regard, the Committee resolved that only competent persons with the requisite qualifications, proven integrity, diligence, eminence and sound character should be appointed Attorney-General, Solicitor-General, Secretary to the Treasury and Governor of the Bank of Zambia.

Madam Speaker, in scrutinising the suitability of the nominees, the Committee considered memoranda from relevant State security agencies, professional bodies, other stakeholders and the appointing authority. The witnesses also appeared before the Committee to make their oral submissions. Further, the Committee interviewed the nominees and carefully scrutinised their curricula vitae (CVs).

Madam Speaker, the Committee made the following observations regarding each nominee:

Mr Mulilo Dimas Kabesha

Madam Speaker, the Committee notes that the nominee has had an illustrious career as a legal practitioner spanning a period of thirty-five years. He served as Legal Aid Counsel before venturing into private practice where he eventually established his own law firm. The Committee further notes that the nominee served as a member and convenor of the Legal Practitioners’ Committee of the Law Association of Zambia. The Committee observes that the nominee has a mature disposition and is highly qualified and immensely experienced in the legal fraternity. He will, therefore, add value to the Office of the Attorney-General.

Madam Speaker, the Committee notes that some stakeholders raised concern about the nominee’s appointment because he is the Chairperson of the Lands Committee of the United Party for National Development (UPND). The stakeholders were of the view that his affiliation to the Ruling Party would prevent him from discharging his functions as Attorney-General impartially. In this regard, the stakeholders recommended that he relinquishes his position in the party once his appointment as Attorney-General is ratified.

Madam Speaker, the Committee observes that the nominee is a seasoned legal practitioner. It further observes that one’s political preference should not stop a citizen from holding public office. The Committee notes that the Constitution provides guidance on the functionality of the Office of Attorney-General, which ensures the impartiality and independence of the office. The Committee, however, supports the recommendation by stakeholders that the nominee relinquishes his position in the UPND, once his appointment as Attorney-General is ratified. The Committee is satisfied that the nominee is suitably qualified and experienced to serve as Attorney-General.

Mr Marshal Mubambe Muchende

Madam Speaker, the Committee observes that the nominee is a legal practitioner with thirteen years post-admission experience with a bias towards commercial litigation. The Committee notes that the nominee has served in both public and private institutions, which places him in a good position to serve as Solicitor-General. The Committee is, therefore, satisfied that the nominee possesses the requisite qualifications and experience and is suitable for appointment as Solicitor-General.

Mr Felix Nkulukusa

Madam Chairperson, the Committee notes that the nominee is highly skilled, qualified and experienced in, among others, policy and project formulation and implementation. It observes that the nominee served at the Ministry of Finance for over fifteen years from 1999 to 2015. During that period, he rose from the position of Budget Analyst to Permanent Secretary (PS).

Madam Speaker, the Committee further observes that while at the Ministry of Finance, the nominee initiated projects that included the Public Finance Management Reform Project Treasury Single Account. The implementation of this project has helped close financial loopholes, promote transparency and prevent the mismanagement of public funds by institutions. He is, therefore, suitable for appointment to the Office of Secretary to the Treasury.

Dr Denny Hamachila Kalyalya

Madam Speaker, the Committee observes that the nominee possesses the requisite educational qualifications and professional experience. The Committee further observes that the nominee served in various positions at the Bank of Zambia. These include Economic Adviser and Deputy Governor of Operations. He also served as Governor of the Bank of Zambia from 2015 to 2020. The nominee further worked for the Bretton Woods Institutions. The Committee further notes that the nominee’s exposure to the financial market, both locally and internationally, makes him a suitable candidate to head the Bank of Zambia.

Madam Speaker, the Committee notes, with satisfaction that all the State security agencies indicated that there were no adverse security concerns against all the nominees. Additionally, the other stakeholders generally submitted that the nominees were suitably qualified and possessed the requisite qualifications and experience to serve in the positions to which they had been appointed.

Madam Speaker, the Committee, after due and thorough consideration, analysis and evaluation of the written and oral submissions presented to it by the witnesses and the interviews with the nominees, is of the view that all the nominees are suitably qualified and possess the requisite competences to serve in the positions to which they have been appointed.

Madam Speaker, in view of the foregoing, the Committee recommends that this august House ratifies the Presidential appointment of Mr Mulilo Dimas Kabesha to serve as Attorney-General, Mr Marshal Mubambe Muchende to serve as Solicitor-General, Mr Felix Nkulukusa to serve as Secretary to the Treasury and Dr Denny Hamachila Kalyalya to serve as Governor of the Bank of Zambia.

Madam Speaker, finally, the members of the Committee wish to place on record their profound gratitude to you for appointing them to serve on this Select Committee. The Committee is also thankful for the services and advice rendered to it by the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly during its deliberations. The Committee further wishes to thank the State security and investigative agencies and professional bodies that were invited as well as other stakeholders for their submissions which assisted the Committee to make an informed recommendation to the House.

Madam Speaker, it is now my rare honour, privilege, and pleasure to call upon the House to ratify the appointments before it.

Madam Speaker, I beg to move.

Madam Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Ms Chisenga: Now, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, thank you, once again, for giving me this opportunity to second this second Motion for today. I thank our Chairperson who has competently moved this Motion.

Madam Speaker, we sat as a Committee to scrutinise the appointment of Mr Mulilo Dimas Kabesha to serve in the capacity of Attorney-General, Mr Marshal Mubambe Muchende to serve in the capacity of Secretary-General, Mr Felix Nkulukusa to serve as Secretary to the Treasury and, finally, Mr Denny Hamachila Kalyalya to serve as Governor of the Bank of Zambia (BoZ).

Madam Speaker, the mover has highlighted many points, which the Committee looked at in order to consider the ratification of the four nominees to serve the people of Zambia. In seconding the Motion, I would like to mention that the capacities in which the nominees have been appointed to serve are critical for good governance and socio-economic development. Therefore, it is gratifying to note that the nominees possess the requisite qualifications.

Madam Speaker, the Committee wishes to commend the appointing authority for ensuring that the persons who were rightly qualified for these positions were recommended for the appointments that were made.

Madam Speaker, finally, I thank the Chairperson and all the members who sat on this Committee for their professionalism, unity of purpose and for the manner in which we related while we deliberated on this matter.

Madam Speaker, with those few remarks, I beg to second this Motion.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mumba (Kantanshi): Madam Speaker, let me first of all, start by mentioning from the outset that I am actually concerned about these appointments. What has happened to our women? In all the strategic appointments that have been made so far, our women are not there. The United Party for National Development (UPND) cannot tell me that it lacks qualified women.

Hon. Government Member: Quality!

Laughter

Mr Mumba: Madam Speaker, the second issue I want to say is that we are a diversified country. We have eleven provinces.

Hon. Members: Ten!

Mr Mumba: Ten provinces, rather. If you take a look at some of the names that have come out prominently out of those who have been appointed so far, you will notice that they are focused in three regions. However, I am not going to politic over this matter because the people who have been selected for these positions are highly qualified and experienced. I will, therefore, focus my debate on the Secretary to the Treasury and the Bank of Zambia Governor.

Madam Speaker, the Secretary to the Treasury, Mr Nkulukusa, has been in that ministry for a very long time and has adequate experience, but we are in a very difficult economic time. We need more than just experience. We need people to move with time. We are in a recession right now. Yes, the Budget will be presented on Friday this week, which is very good, and we have heard some fillers of how good it will be, but the truth of the matter –

Ms Sefulo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Ms Sefulo: Madam Speaker, Standing Order No. 65 – Am I audible?

Madam Speaker: You can go ahead. We can hear you.

Ms Sefulo: Madam Speaker, Standing Order No. 65 of the National Assembly states that a Member who is debating should be factual. The hon. Member of Parliament stated that the appointments have been made from three regions, which is not factual. The President has appointed people from all the ten provinces of Zambia. So, is the hon. Member of Parliament in order to mislead the House that the appointments have been from three regions? Which regions is he referring to in his statement? I think this statement to the House is very misleading.

I seek your serious ruling, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, as we debate, let us be factual so that we give the people of Zambia a true reflection of what is being debated in the House.

Proceed, hon. Member for Kantanshi.

Mr Mumba: Madam Speaker, I was hoping the hon. Member of Parliament was going to support me that we need more women to be appointed in this New Dawn Government, but it is okay. She is happy with the status quo. Some of us are not because we know that there are many qualified women who can even do better jobs than you (pointing at hon. Male Government Members).

Laughter

Mr Mumba: Madam Speaker, I was talking about the Secretary to the Treasury and the complexity of our economy right now. We are in this, not just as Zambia alone, but world over because of the Coronavirus Disease (COVID-19). There are fears again that we might have the fourth wave that will make our economies even contract further. In short, he has to find many new ways of how he can ensure that the Treasury remains healthy. So, his core job is to spend public money. Simply put, public money is tax payers’ money. That is where that money is from. So, we need a Secretary to the Treasury who will not go back to the ministry to victimise his colleagues because of probably how he exited when he was there as Permanent Secretary. We want new ideas that –

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Hon. PF Members: Hammer, hammer!

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, can we have order. We do not have the luxury of time. Let the hon. Member for Kantanshi debate freely.

Mr Mumba: Madam Speaker, thank you for protecting me. I am actually helping the hon. Minister of Finance, whom I dearly respect, because I want him to succeed more this time around. So, the team he has been given is a good one and that is why I am saying that.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: Order! It looks like people want to go for break.

Business was suspended from 1640 hours until 1700 hours.

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

Mr Mumba: Madam Speaker, before business was suspended, I was emphasising the need for the Secretary to the Treasury to be very compassionate and not to look back where he is coming from, but to fit into the new challenges that we have today. One of the major problems at the Ministry of Finance and National Planning has been the crowding out of small businesses. You will find that most ministries owe small Zambian businesses. Small Zambian businesses were not paid simply because much attention was given to bigger projects. That has now disadvantaged tax collection and the growth of the economy. So, we need the Secretary to the Treasury to ensure that he, first of all, prioritises the dismantling of debt, not just in the road sector, which has consumed a lot of money with has had a dismal effect on our economy.

Madam Speaker, just the other day, the hon. Minister said that small contractors are being owed K100 million, but check how many times the National Road Fund Agency (NRFA) was given money, specifically to pay small businesses or small contractors. However, that was never ever done. We need the Secretary to the Treasury not to sit back and say I have given the allocation. He has to check that the money has actually been spent on the programme for which it was released. So, that is another big problem which we need to sort out because we now need to move together as one. Politics finished on 12^th August, 2021. What people are now looking for are better lives, an economy that will grow and business opportunities. So, it is very important that the new Secretary to the Treasury is very compassionate about what is currently happening. If he starts the system of choosing whom to pay because of the colour of his political party, then it will become very difficult for this country to move forward.

Madam Speaker, the Secretary to the Treasury will also need to make sure that his office is open to ideas and questioning, especially when it comes to tax policies. His office will have to work very closely with the Zambian Revenue Authority (ZRA), though the ZRA is sometimes seen as an enemy by the people. Anyway, everybody around the world is reluctant to pay taxes. However, it is important that the connection, which should trickle down to the people, should exist.

Madam Speaker, it is also very important that the Secretary to the Treasury also realises that he is at the centre of the recession that we are in, and that recovery will only take place if we get good policies from his office. We need an economic recovery plan that is able to make economic sense for everybody to achieve that aspiration.

Madam Speaker, as regards the Central Bank Governor, this is not the first time he is walking into that office and this is not the first time he is involved during a recession. We had it in 2009 when he was the Deputy Governor - Operations, and we got out of that recession. Now, we have the COVID-19 recession, which has caused jobs to close and a lot of financial instability. Today, our exchange rate is slowly crawling to K18. That has an effect on Government expenditure. So, we need him to settle down from day one and we also need him to have authority over our microeconomics fundamentals so that we ensure that whichever mining company needs to pay the right royalties or whatever is due to Zambia does so properly.

Madam Speaker, he will also need to ensure that the banking sector remains relevant to the people of Zambia. There is already the Minister of Small and Medium Enterprise Development. We cannot continue giving money to Small and Medium Enterprises (SMEs) without involving the banking sector. How is the banking sector or the SMEs going to grow if it does not know that it needs to bank the money? So, we need the Bank of Zambia Governor to also come up with policies that will ensure the proper functioning of microeconomic lenders that are supporting small businesses and those in formal employment.

Madam Speaker, as I end, let me borrow the terms that Her Honour the Vice-President used ...

The hon. Member's time expired.

Mr Kangombe: Time

Madam Speaker: Order! The time is up.

Mr Mumba: ... that when you are politically appointed, you will also go politically. So, let them go and settle properly.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr E Tembo (Feira): Madam Speaker, may I thank the Committee for the job and, indeed, those that made presentations to the Committee. I wish to thank them for the report.

Madam Speaker, I would like to address myself to the Office of the Attorney-General as well as the Solicitor-General. As a lawyer myself, I am interested in seeing that the legal framework in the country operates to support the development of the country and, indeed, the President and the Cabinet. It is clear that the Attorney-General is a key legal advisor to the President. He must discharge his duties professionally and be independent of any opinions outside his office.

Madam Speaker, my submission is meant to protect the President against misleading legal advice from the Office of the Attorney-General and that of the Solicitor-General.

Madam Speaker, to me, the report is very clear that both the Attorney-General and the Solicitor-General, in the name of Mr Mulilo Dimas Kabesha and Mr Marshal Mubambe Muchende, respectively, are names that have come up as members of the United Party for National Development (UPND). I see them being very fresh from being members of the UPND and I completely doubt that they will be able to advise the President independently and professionally. It is my strong and considered view that, regardless of what has been said by the security wings and all the other people who made submissions, the position of these two individuals, as active members of the UPND, will vitiate their efforts to help the country. They are only human, anyway.

Madam Speaker, it is clear that the nominee for the position of Attorney-General is currently the UPND Chairperson for Lands and the nominee for the position of Solicitor-General was one of the aspiring candidates in the Bweengwa Parliamentary Constituency, in the Southern Province. It is also public knowledge that he was also a lawyer for the President.

Mr Sing’ombe: Question!

Mr E Tembo: Madam Speaker, we are in a multi-party State and it is possible that these two individuals may choose to belong to a political party, but I have problems nominating them to Constitutional offices in which they are supposed to discharge their duties diligently and professionally. Consciously or subconsciously, they will be affected and this is true considering their active role in the UPND.

Madam Speaker, the President has complained on several occasions that he is under pressure from Senior UPND members asking for jobs. I see this as the President subduing himself to all this pressure.

Madam Speaker, on the basis that there are serious political connotations to the two names, it is my submission that the two names be dropped and that two other names be brought back here to Parliament. This is because as we stand, we have almost 3,000 legal practitioners and 1,000 or more senior lawyers that have nothing to do with political parties and do their jobs professionally. For those of us who have political connotations, I think it is better we are active in our political roles and continue doing so.

Madam Speaker, before I sit down, as I said, I am worried about the President being ill advised by people who need to maintain their jobs. It is very important that the President and Cabinet are protected because it is the Attorney-General who advises the Government on international agreements. The Government cannot sign any agreement without the advice of the Attorney-General. The President needs a person who is going to be free to give advice, be it good or bad.

Madam Speaker, Presidents are falling because they have people looking for jobs. We have the kandiles, in other words, people who are interested in just getting benefits. In this case, I fear that our President, that is, President Hichilema, the Republican President, is not going to have the best legal advice. Indeed, having said that, I really –

Mr Haimbe: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order has been raised by the hon. Minister of Justice.

Mr Haimbe: Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order, pursuant to Standing Order 65, which you have guided on repeatedly regarding speculative debate. I have listened very closely to the debate by the hon. Member of Parliament for Feira and it is based purely on speculation. His assertion that the nominees may not be in a position to give advice on account of their political affiliation is not based on any logical or objective argument. It is simply because they are members or perceived members of a political party that he has then equated them to being unable to be objective and to give proper advice. That is speculative and also not based on facts and, therefore, it is my humble contention that the hon. Member is out of order. I, therefore, seek your ruling on whether or not the Member is in order to debate in that manner.

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, I guided that as we debate, we should not be speculative. We should be factual in our debates. So, as we debate, please, let us be factual. The Standing Orders are very clear on what the content of the debates should be. So, hon. Member for Feira, as you continue, please, ensure that you are not speculative and stick to facts.

You may proceed, hon. Member for Feira.

Mr E. Tembo: Madam Speaker, thank you for your guidance. Indeed, I thank my brother, the hon. Minister of Justice. I shall endeavour not to be speculative, but I know very well that I am not speculating.

Madam Speaker, it is fact that –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Mr E. Tembo: It is in the report that they are members of the UPND and, indeed, ...

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Feira!

Mr E. Tembo: ... I still maintain that we have a history as a country –

Madam Speaker: Order, order!

Once a ruling has been delivered, you do not debate it. You have been guided. Proceed without referring to the ruling, whether you are being speculative or not. The ruling was that you should not be speculative. So, stick to the facts.

The hon. Member may proceed.

Mr E. Tembo: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I am well-guided.

Madam Speaker, in summary, it is my submission that we should choose names from amongst legal practitioners who qualify to be in the two positions, but are not members of any political party, whether they will give advice that is wrong or right.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo was inaudible.

Madam Speaker: Is the hon. Member for Shiwang’andu there?

The microphones gave off feedback noise.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, are you able to get me?

Madam Speaker: We can get you now, but there is some feedback noise.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, I raise on a very serious point of order. The role we play as Legislature in ratifying the appointments by the President is very clear. It does not mean that we should become an endorsing institution for appointments. We scrutinise and debate these appointments.

The hon. Member of Parliament for Feira was well-grounded in his debate and I will refer you, Madam Speaker, to page 5 of your report. On page 5, the nominee for Attorney-General, Mr Mulilo Dismas Kabesha, is cited, as presented by one of the stakeholders who appeared before your Committee, the Human Rights Commission, –

Madam Speaker: Order, order!

Hon. Member for Shiwang’andu, you are raising a point of order on another point of order. I have already ruled on that, so let us make –

Mr Kampyongo: No, Madam Speaker, hear me out. It is very important.

Hon. Government Members: Ah!

Mr Mufalali: No! The Speaker has ruled. We cannot have such behaviour.

Mr Kampyongo: We are debating a report, your report, Madam Speaker, and we deserve to scrutinise this report in totality.

Mr Sing’ombe: Question!

Hon. Government Member: The Speaker has ruled. The Speaker has ruled.

Madam Speaker: Order, order!

Hon. Members, let us have some order otherwise we will not make progress in the matter. The Standing Orders are very clear that once a ruling has been made, unless it is an appeal, but then it is not provided for in the Standing Orders that a Member may appeal against a ruling.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, I will wait for my time to debate. I have indicated via Zoom. I will wait for my time to debate, but I wanted you to be aware of this because I will raise these matters –

Hon. Government Member: The Speaker has ruled. Keep quiet!

Mr Mufalali: Do not argue with the Speaker. I think you should send him out.

Madam Speaker: Hon Member for Feira, proceed or had you already finished? Okay, thank you.

Mr E. Tembo: I finished my submission, Madam Speaker.

Mr Michelo (Bweengwa): Madam Speaker, let me thank the Committee for a job well done. My debate this afternoon will be anchored and I will not go outside the debate. I will just debate about the four men of integrity who were appointed by the Republican President, His Excellency Mr Hakainde Hichilema. I will start with Mr Mulilo Kabesha, who is to serve as Attorney-General and Mr Marshal Muchende who is to serve as Solicitor-General. I will also talk about Mr Felix Nkulukusa who is to serve as Secretary to the Treasury and Dr Denny Kalyalya to serve as Governor of the Bank of Zambia.

Madam Speaker, let us start with Mr Kabesha. The nominee is a prominent legal practitioner with over thirty years of experience. I believe that he is going to deliver to the expectations of the Zambian people in this position that he is going to undertake starting today.

Madam Speaker, I believe Mr Marshal Muchende meets the requirements for the Office of the Solicitor-General. He is very objective and I know him very well. For the past ten years, I have interacted with this gentleman. He is very good and has not committed any offence in his previous life. So, I believe he will do even better in his new position.

Madam Speaker, Mr Felix Nkulukusa, the nominee for Secretary to the Treasury, has vast experience of over ten years. This is what is written in the report. He is also well trained locally and internationally. A gentleman who has been trained locally and internationally I think has enough technical know-how on how to manage that office.

Madam Speaker, Dr Kalyalya is a nominee with a wealth of experience. He has held different positions both locally and internationally. He has no record of human rights violations. I, therefore, endorse his appointment.

Madam Speaker, these four men, just as I stated earlier on, are men of integrity. The time when they were appointed by the President, I did not see any one of them become excited that they had been appointed. None of them went to buy beer to start exciting themselves.

Madam Speaker, in the recent past, we saw some nominees, after being appointed in the previous regime, buying some liquids or dry matters which intoxicated their heads or brains. These are men of integrity. Definitely, we are not going to see anyone of them beginning to excite themselves. These are serious men of integrity. I believe all the Zambian people support them, apart from the ones who are not serious about seeing this country develop in this era.

Madam Speaker, I thank you for allowing me to debate on this Motion. I believe these men will deliver to the expectation of the Zambian people and I wish them well in their new positions.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, I will not allow points of order as we debate. If there is any point that an hon. Member wants to raise in reaction to the debate of another hon. Member, please, note that point so that you can bring it up as a rebuttal. This is for management of time.

Mr Mundubile (Mporokoso): Madam Speaker, I thank you for this opportunity to debate the Motion on the Floor.

Madam Speaker, I will not waste much time. I have no problem with the nomination of the Bank of Zambia Governor, Dr Denny Kalyalya, and the Secretary to the Treasury, Mr Felix Nkulukusa. However, I do not support the ratification of the appointments of Mr Dimas Kabesha and Mr Marshal Muchende.

Madam Speaker, the two are my fellow politicians who, even up to this moment, are members of the United Party for National Development (UPND).

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. UPND Member: Question!

Mr Mundubile: Madam Speaker, we have heard, many a time, statements by our hon. Colleagues on your right that institutions of the Government were occupied by Patriotic Front (PF) cadres in the past and that this is why they could not function properly. I am, therefore, very surprised that today, our hon. Colleagues on your right can bring these two names of people who are serving in their National Management Committee and former aspiring candidates in the just-ended elections.

Madam Speaker, the demand of these two offices is that anybody occupying these offices shall not be subject to any direction or control. They should exercise independence and impartiality. I doubt that when these individuals, these colleagues of mine, Mr Dimas Kabesha and Mr Marshal Muchende, my fellow politicians, will tomorrow change to the extent that they will forget that they belong to the UPND and be able to give advice which is impartial.

Madam Speaker, we have a number of problems as a country that we are facing presently. We can zero in on them. We have a problem with the Copperbelt Energy Corporation Plc (CEC). The standoff between the CEC and ZESCO Limited will require the Attorney-General and the Solicitor-General to advise the Government. How will they be impartial when, clearly, some of the senior hon. Members of Parliament for the UPND seated here are the ones behind these companies? Will they decide in the interest of the Zambian people or will they decide in the interest of their colleagues?

Madam Speaker, these are very serious issues. We are not being political about these issues. We are bringing out facts. The UPND itself, including the President, was against cadres being appointed to these important offices. President Hakainde Hichilema and his team, under the new dawn, have done very well to do away with cadres in markets and bus stations. How can they now begin to introduce cadres in these very important offices?

Madam Speaker, we will not support this. Yes, they have the numbers and will push this through, but we want to put it on record so that the Zambian people know that our colleagues say one thing and do another.

Madam Speaker, we look forward to a day when the UPND will be able to do as it says. To this end, it has been very difficult. We hear very good statements, which are decorated and spiced on the Floor of the House. However, what it does is the complete opposite, including the decision to front or propose the names of Mr Dimas Kabesha and Mr Marshal Muchende whom they know are politicians. We do not want cadres in these offices. We want people who are going to be able to give impartial advice, ...

Interruptions

Mr Mundubile: … that is independent to the Government. Not these two colleagues. These two colleagues will not do so. We, therefore, should worry. The people in Chingola should worry about what is going to happen to the Konkola Copper Mines (KCM) because the people who are going to advise on the future of the KCM are these two colleagues. People should worry on the future of the Mopani Copper Mines Plc. It is these two colleagues who are going to offer advice on the fate of these two mines.

Madam Speaker, I, therefore, place on record that we will not support the ratification of the appointment of one Dimas Kabesha and Marshal Muchende.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development (Eng. Milupi): Madam Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity to add my voice to the debate on this very important Motion. In this regard, I thank the Chairperson of this Select Committee for the work well done.

Madam Speaker, it is a well-known fact that when Parliament operates properly, you have to have hon. Members that debate with facts, who have positions that they hold dearly and that they do not deviate from depending on specific times and periods.

Madam Speaker, on the names that have come before this House, I think everyone who has spoken cannot question their professionalism, qualifications and experiences.

Madam Speaker, first of all, let me focus on the nomination for the Bank of Zambia (BoZ) Governor, Mr Denny Kalyalya. When he was first appointed as Governor of the Bank of Zambia, I was on the Committee that scrutinised his appointment because he was moving from the position of Deputy Governor to replace the then out-going Governor, Mr Caleb Fundanga. We went through his credentials and found that he had impeccable qualifications and experience. His performance as Bank of Zambia Governor under very difficult circumstances proved to one and all that the Committee and the Parliament then had made the right choice to ratify his appointment. Moving the clock forward, his removal and replacement by somebody who was clearly a member of the Patriotic Front (PF) party did not raise any questions from those opposite.

Mr Kapyanga: Which position and card number?

Eng. Milupi: So, we must be fair in the way that we debate.

Madam Speaker, it is my considered view that this nomination of the Governor of the Bank of Zambia, Mr Denny Kalyalya, will help this Government and country restore order in terms of monetary policies yet again.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Eng. Milupi: What we were beginning to see at the BoZ was beginning to worry us.

Madam Speaker, with respect to the nomination for the Attorney-General as well as the Solicitor-General, again, these two have impeccable qualifications. Mr Dimas Kabesha, we have been told by the Committee, has over thirty years experience at the Bar. Mr Marshal Muchende, again, we are informed, has over thirteen years experience. Nobody who has debated from the other side has questioned those credentials. That is what is important.

Madam Speaker, let us understand the period we went through under the previous Administration. It was necessary at the time for men and women of goodwill to stand up to the dictatorship and the wrong things that the previous Administration brought onto this nation. The fact is that these two participated in bringing in the change that we are now enjoying and the change that those on the left are also enjoying. Even those who have committed crimes are here with us enjoying.

Madam Speaker, the Constitution is very clear on the performance of an Attorney-General and a Solicitor-General, which is that they will not be subject to any office or anybody in the performance of their duties. The hon. Leader of the Opposition clearly knows that. It is my view that these two will be able to perform in a number of cases far better than the people they are replacing. I hear certain specific examples being given such as “What are these people going to do about Konkola Copper Mines (KCM) Plc.?” What did the people who are being replaced do about the KCM, the money that was taken from there, and the chaos that was created there? What did they do?

Madam Speaker, the President has made it very clear that everybody appointed has to perform professionally, and I have no doubt that these people will perform very professionally. You have guided that we must be factual when we stand up in this House. Someone made reference to people who own the Copperbelt Energy Corporation (CEC) Plc. For the information of those who are ignorant, the CEC is owned by 4,600 Zambians, including your former Vice-President and many who were hon. Ministers in the previous Government. So, let us be careful before we politicise things on which we have not researched. Go to the Patents and Companies Registration Agency (PACRA) and it will tell you who owns the CEC.

Madam Speaker, the question before us is the ratification of the appointment of these people. These are eminent professionals in their own right, and I, therefore, support their appointment to these positions.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutale (Chitambo): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to add my voice to this debate today.

Madam Speaker, I do not have much to say, but I note that the ratification in this House of these four colleagues of ours or Zambians has come at the right time. Our duty as hon. Members of Parliament is to scrutinise the appointments. I am very happy that you set up a Committee of hon. Members of Parliament who really scrutinised these appointments. Our duty this afternoon is to debate the report, which I have read thoroughly. The mover did well to highlight what is contained in the speech and likewise the seconder.

Madam Speaker, as much as we glorify the appointment of Mr Muchende, I note that your Committee has brought out issues about his qualifications. It says that his qualifications were not certified to show proof that they were genuine. This is contained on page 8 of the report. There are no references to show that his qualifications are correct. The report further says that his General Certificate of Education from some foreign country has not been certified up to now, meaning that even this House should doubt those credentials.

Madam Speaker, as a House, we shall not be here to ratify things we know are not correct. We shall question these things as long as they are given to us the way they are. The report is very clear and straightforward. It says that Mr Muchende’s qualifications are very doubtful because they are not certified.

Your Committee’s report has also talked about people being members of a political party called the United Party for National Development (UPND) up to today. I have no problem because these people came to the Committee and said “We shall resign once we are ratified.” This means that ratification is what is going to bind them to resignation.

Madam Speaker, I questioned that reasoning knowing that once a politician, always a politician. I know that our hon. Colleagues in the UPND are on record as blaming the Patriotic Front (PF) for having appointed cadres in most of the influential offices. Our Patriotic Front Constitution states that we shall have PF members occupy most of those offices for us to operate well. Now, it appears that our hon. Colleagues are also copying and pasting what we were doing.

Hon. UPND Members: Question!

Mr Mutale: Madam Speaker, these are offices of integrity that we are talking about. Yesterday, I listened to some answers that were given on the Floor of the House by a cadre. Giving answers on even matters that are before the courts, showing that a politician will always, ...

Mr Jamba: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mutale: ... serve his party, not the interests of the many Zambians who are out there waiting to see the calibre and the kind of people –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, we do not have much time. I have guided that we avoid points of order unless it is a matter of life and death.

Mr Jamba: Madam Speaker, yes, it is.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Jamba: Madam Speaker, this House is a dignified House. This House is full of hon. Members. These who are here are hon. Members. Is Hon. Remember Mutale, who is honourable, in order to call fellow hon. Members of Parliament cadres? Does he have any evidence to show that these hon. Members are cadres? Is he in order?

I seek your serious ruling, Madam Speaker.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon Members, we are all dignified Members of the House. As we debate, let us not use unparliamentary language. The use of the word ‘cadre’ is not acceptable and should not be used in the House.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Will the hon. Member for Chitambo withdraw the word ‘cadre’. What matters is the context within which the word was used. Can the word ‘cadre’ be withdrawn, hon. Member for Chitambo.

Mr Mutale: Madam Speaker, I am very grateful. I will replace the word ‘cadre’ with ‘a party member’.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Chitambo, there is even no need to replace the word. Can you withdraw it and rephrase your debate.

Mr Mutale: Madam Speaker, I have withdrawn the word ‘cadre’. Do I need to replace it?

Mr Lusambo: No you do not need to replace it.

Mr Mutale: Madam Speaker, we are talking about the Hansard here. Do I need to replace the word or not? I must be guided.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Chitambo, withdraw the word ‘cadre’ and if you have a better word, use it.

Mr Mutale: Madam Speaker, I have withdrawn the word ‘cadre’ and replaced it with ‘a member of a political party’.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutale: Madam Speaker, to wind up my debate, I wish to say that of the four appointments, two are okay and the other two I will not support based on the facts that I have articulated on Floor of this House. The two appointments that I object to are Mr Muchende and a Mr Kabesha Mulilo, whom we have been told are UPND members by your Select Committee which scrutinised their appointments. The Foundation for Democratic Process (FODEP) also commented on this issue. Many other organisations also rendered their submissions on that issue. As a House of laws, we do not want to come back tomorrow and apologise to the people out there who are listening that we told them and they did not heed our advice.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Madam Speaker, I thank you for this opportunity to make some comments regarding the four people whose appointments we are ratifying this afternoon. I will mainly restrict myself to the issues of the Secretary to the Treasury and the Governor of the Bank of Zambia. As the report of your Committee says, these are very highly qualified, competent and honest men. That being the case, I think it is only befitting that we quickly ratify their appointments so that they help to reconstruct the economy of our country that has gone through so much stress.

Madam Speaker, in the first instance, you will recall that your Committee says that these two were already serving. Mr Nkulukusa rose from the ranks to be Permanent Secretary in the then Ministry of Finance. Furthermore, Dr Kalyalya also rose through the ranks up to Bank of Zambia Governor. It was the previous Government that removed them from office. What a contrast. In both cases, the moment they were removed, people who understand the value of high quality materials like that snapped them up. They were given assignments in places where people understand and appreciate the value of competence.

Madam Speaker, the only mistake they made, which led to their removal was to tell the previous Government the honest story to please desist from excessive borrowing. That was all. They said quietly, “Please, do not get into this system of excessive borrowing because it is going to put us in trouble.” Here we are today, in serious economic problems. If only the previous Government had listened to the advice of these two people, we would not be in the problem that we are in today. So, we gladly accept them ourselves. We recommend that we adopt the appointments. The irony of it all was that at a time when the country needed these two competent men greatly, that is when the Government got rid of them. At the time when they were badly needed to come and reconstruct the economy, that is when the Government got rid of them. So, I recommend very highly to this House that we ratify the appointments of the two gentlemen as we go ahead to deal with our debt problems and economic growth. They are going to add value to our country.

Madam Speaker, let me also comment very briefly on the appointment of the other two gentlemen. I do not really know them much. So, I cannot say much. However, I just want to comment on what the Leader of the Opposition said that these are fellow politicians. I think the trouble with our hon. Colleagues here is that they are actually the ones who like saying one thing and doing the opposite. Let us take a look at Dr Denny Kalylaya’s predecessor.

Madam, the Hon. Leader of the Opposition said that he does not like people who have been in politics because they would be biased. Where did the former Bank of Zambia Governor come from? Were we not seated with him in this House under the rule of the Patriotic Front (PF)? Today, he says we should not appoint people who are politically inclined, when they did it.

Interruptions

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, so, we take the advice that they provided that when people are appointed to the public office, they put the politics aside and become public officers and that is what the Attorney-General and the Solicitor-General are going to do. In fact, I have another example. I am sorry it has just slipped off my mind. Another example of somebody who was in politics, but the PF gave that person a responsibility, but at the time, it did not concern them. Today, they are saying the opposite. Colleagues, let us be consistent.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear

Mr Lusambo (Kabushi): Madam Speaker, the people of Kabushi are delighted this afternoon for giving them the opportunity to add their voice to the debate on the four public servants whose names are here for us to debate, and scruitnise their character, qualifications and standing in the society.

Madam Speaker, I had an opportunity to work with the former Bank of Zamia Governor, Dr Denny Hamachila Kalyalya, in the Government of His Excellency Edgar Chagwa Lungu, who appointed him as a Governor of the Bank of Zambia (BoZ). As I support his appointment today, I want to point out the challenges he had when he was the Governor for the Bank of Zambia under the Government of His Excellency Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu and we hope and trust that he will work on the challenges he faced.

Madam Speaker, firstly, during his time as Bank of Zambia Governor, Dr Denny witnessed the Kwacha dropping from K10 to K20 to a United States (US) Dollar. During that time, we experienced many challenges of trust from the international community. I want to differ with the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning who said that Denny was fired because of advising the Government of His Excellency Edgar Chagwa Lungu on borrowing. The Ministry of Finance, together with BoZ, is huge and I can assure you that the Presidency, as an institution, gets advice from different officers in that ministry. I can assure everyone that was not the reason.

Madam Speaker, however, President Hakainde Hichilema has appointed Denny back at BoZ. When the President was saying that you will see the Governor whom I will give you, I thought he would give us Angel Gabriel, but he has given us Denny, a person we worked with and a person who contributed to the dropping of the Kwacha’s exchange rate against the US Dollar from K10 to K20. So, we are not surprised the reason Denny neglected the people of Zambia. He knew the people he was working with.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Lusambo: Denny, as you are coming back to BoZ, make sure that you serve the people of Zambia above partisan politics. We have seen that the reason you did not put in 100 per cent of your effort was that you wanted to dent the image of our party and Government.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Laughter

Mr Lusambo: Madam Speaker, in fact, he was not performing accordingly knowing very well that he went to bed with the United Party for National Development (UPND). On that, we want these public officers to start operating above board because we have a country to protect. We have the 18 million Zambians to protect.

Madam Speaker, I have no problem with Mr Felix Nkulukusa. I worked with him when President Edgar Chagwa Lungu appointed him because he believed in quality, hence his appointment. So, I am happy that President Hakainde Hichilema is just getting people from the PF and if it is not from the PF, it is from the Movement for Multi-Party Democracy (MMD), knowing very well that there is no quality or substance in the UPND.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lusambo: Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister of Finance and national Planning, Her Honour the Vice-President and many others came from the MMD. If it is not from the MMD, it is from the PF. I want to congratulate the President on telling the people of Zambia that he does not have people with quality to serve in his Government. He has even delayed appointing Permanent Secretaries (PSs) and others because he wants to fish from other political parties.

Madam Speaker, let me now comment on the two other gentlemen, the Attorney-General and the Solicitor-General. As Zambians, we want to serve the nation. We do not want officers who will serve a political party or a person. Those two offices are above board and we hope and trust that the UPND and Her Honour the Vice-President, who is a Reverend, my mother and the mother of the nation, is here and she can agree with me that we need people to perform above board.

Madam Speaker, so, on those two names, I can assure you that we are not here to argue or support what is not good. We want this Government to succeed because when it succeeds, the people of Kabushi, Mpongwe and Masaiti will celebrate. For me, I can support the two names, Denny and Felix, 100 per cent, but for the other two names, it is more like going to the Intercity Bus Terminus to go and get ‘Commando’ and ‘America’ to come and become Solicitor-General and Attorney-General.

Hon. Government Members: Katondo Street!

Mr Lusambo: Madam Speaker, these two offices are very serious. The Attorney-General is the advisor to the President and the last man in Cabinet. He sits in Cabinet and advises the Executive. We need to have a person who is above board. We need to have a person who will be bold enough to advise and face the President on the issues pertaining to this great country, Zambia. We do not want a person who will be a "yes, bwana" to the President.

Madam Speaker, we want this Government to not destroy what we have done because in 2026, as we take over power, we want to find the things which we did so that we can progress.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Justice (Mr Haimbe): Madam Speaker, I thank you for availing me this opportunity to add my voice to the debate that is on the Floor of the House regarding the Motion on the Report by your Parliamentary Select Committee.

Madam Speaker, let me begin by saying that the Motion to adopt the Report of the Parliamentary Select Committee is supported and, indeed consequently, I support the ratification of the four public officers whose appointments are under consideration today. I would like to focus my debate particularly on the two, being the nominee for appointment as Attorney-General and the nominee for appointment as Solicitor-General.

Madam Speaker, it is trite that the content of one’s debate will exhibit the amount of knowledge on what is under consideration.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Haimbe: Madam Speaker, it is, therefore, shocking to hear suggestions that these eminent members could be compared to having been selected from Intercity Bus Terminus. To the contrary, your report is very clear that these are eminent members of the noble legal profession. One cannot compare apples and oranges. It is a sign, perhaps, that matters that are under consideration have not been given full thought. That being said, the very fact that they come from the noble profession is a starting point.

Madam Speaker, all of us that are trained as legal practitioners will agree that part of our training requires us to put issues relating to the rule of law above anything else. Therefore, for anyone to suggest before this honourable House that because these eminent members of society belong to a particular political dispensation will override their national duty is a complete and total misnomer. The fact of the matter is that they are trained. When we speak of the Attorney-General nominee, we are talking of thirty-five years of noble practice. I shudder to think in what circumstances a person of such eminence would fail to follow their duty. It is a constitutionally enshrined duty. Therefore, as a legal practitioner who knows these individuals personally, who has worked with both of them, I can safely say that the people of Zambia will have their interests served first above anything else. That should put purge to any discussion around whether or not they are proper candidates in view of their political affiliation. However, we will take a step further. Nobody can say that citizens’ rights to belong to a political party should work to their disadvantage in terms of opportunities that are available.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Haimbe: What should be at the foremost of the minds of the hon. Members seated to your left, Madam Speaker, is whether these individuals have the requisite qualifications under the law and in terms of their contribution to the legal profession to undertake these duties. Clearly, there can be no question that they more than qualify.

Madam Speaker, as legal practitioners, and the Hon. Leader of the Opposition will agree with me that the top most qualification for Attorney-General is whether the individual has the qualifications to lead the Bar, to be the number one lawyer. Nobody here or elsewhere, even amongst those that were witnesses at the proceedings of your Committee, suggested otherwise. My point is very simple. Senior Counsel Mulilo Kabesha, soon to be State Counsel, is beyond reproach. Therefore, his nomination should not be a question for any further debate.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Haimbe: Further, Madam Speaker, Marshal has equally shown, and I use the first name because of my familiarity with his work, steadfastness in the approach to the legal profession and the ability to deputise the Attorney-General in the manner required and expected. Therefore, I stand in support of his nomination as well.

Madam Speaker, as I wind up my debate on these two exemplary citizens of Zambia, I want to negative the suggestion that was put forward by one of the hon. Members that Mr Muchende, the soon to be State Counsel as well, does not qualify by reason of his qualification not meeting the standard. That debate did not take into account the totality of the report before you. Hon. Members, if you look at page 11, the Zambia Qualifications Authority that has been granted the mandate to check on qualifications and see that they meet the requirements basically said that they supported the nominee because he was qualified having looked at all his qualifications. Therefore, for an hon. Member to come here and suggest that the qualifications did not meet the requirements is misleading the House.

Mr Lusambo: It is in the report

Mr Haimbe: Madam Speaker, if people took the time to read these reports holistically, they would not come here to mislead the House. Further, there was much credence in the nomination of the Attorney-General as can be seen from the report itself. There was a suggestion that because the nominee for Attorney-General belongs to a political party, then he is not suitable for appointment. As I wind up, I refer to page 26 of the report which has a list of other things that the learned Attorney-General nominee has done. He is a senior member of the Church and so on and so forth. Those points were ignored when making the suggestion that because he is a political party member he cannot qualify. The point is simple. We do many things in life and because of our professionalism we are able to execute functions that are given to us. Even speaking here as a political nominee, my professionalism comes first. I have no doubt that my colleagues who hold Constitutional offices are like minded.

Madam Speaker, I support the Motion on the Floor of the House and, therefore, pray that the appointments of the two nominees and their colleagues, in the other portfolios, be ratified by this House.

I beg to submit, Madam Speaker.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: The hon. Member for Shiwang’andu.

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Jamba: Bayamba ukuchita dilute.

Umunthu nalya inama, mwaleta delele.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Shiwang’andu.

Hon. UPND Members: He is not around.

Madam Speaker: He is coming through Zoom.

Mr Jamba: He is not around.

Mr Mung’andu: He is in Shiwang’andu.

Madam Speaker: If he is not around, for the time being, we go to the hon. Member for Mufulira.

Mr Mwila (Mufulira): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for this opportunity to contribute to debate on the Motion on the Floor of the House. I read the Report of the Select Committee with a lot of interest. It contained a lot of details about the nominees that we are discussing today and I wish to render my comments on the four nominees.

Madam Speaker, the nominee for the position of Governor of the Bank of Zambia is not new to the position. He served in that position from 2015 to 2020. The people of Mufulira have been going through some of the statistics during the time that he served, and so have some of the professionals in the country. Between the period that he served, statistics tell us that the exchange rate between the Kwacha and the United States of American Dollar (US$) moved from about K5.3 to K22 per US$. The inflation rate moved from a single digit to double digit from about 7 per cent to about 15 per cent.

Madam Speaker, the lending rates also jumped from around 15 per cent to 27 per cent. The reserves dropped from US$3 billion to US$1.3 billion, during the period the nominee was in charge of the monetary policy of this country. The New Dawn Government, which is starting things anew, is bringing the man who was behind him these statistics. He has very good qualifications and experience, but these statistics do not speak very well for him. I wished that the New Dawn Government would give that institution a new dawn. Clearly, we have very qualified people across the country who could have fitted in that position. So, I support his nomination, but those comments should be taken note of. Even though we are worried and concerned, we hope the statistics will not follow his past experience at the Central Bank.

Madam Speaker, let me comment on the nominee to serve as Secretary to the Treasury. The Government has been condemning the previous Government, the Patriotic Front (PF), for what it terms as excessive borrowing. The hon. Minister of Finance and national Planning came here and issued a statement on the current debt, which is about US$14 billion. Out of that, when the nominee to serve as Secretary to the Treasury served at the Ministry of Finance, he led a delegation on two occasions to the international market to borrow, firstly, US$750 million and, secondly, US$1 billion.

Madam Speaker, this nominee contributed to the so-called reckless borrowing …

Mr Sing’ombe: Question!

Mr Mwila: … and today, the Zambians who voted for change are being given a nominee who is very much part of the debt that the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government has so roundly condemned. We wonder how much more borrowing will be done now that he has even been rewarded a higher position than he held previously. He has the qualifications as contained in the report, but history should not repeat itself. We are in tough times. He seems to have a lot of experience in leading delegations to negotiate for debt.

Madam Speaker, let me comment on the other two nominees. As it has been said, this Government condemned the filling of public offices, including constitutional offices, with cadres. However, it is public knowledge that the nominees for Attorney-General and Solicitor-General are confirmed and well grounded members of the Ruling Party. I hope from this moment onwards, the hon. Members on the right will not comment about the PF having appointed cadres to public offices and constitutional offices because our colleagues have just done it now. The people of Zambia have read and we will soon hear on the 2000 hours news that Parliament has ratified the nomination of these two UPND cadres to hold the positions of Attorney-General and Solicitor-General.

Madam Speaker, as we raise these concerns, we want to help the Government to fulfil its campaign promises. The Government has made many promises and it needs support. So, when we raise these concerns, we want the Government to fulfil these promises. However, from what we are seeing, the Bembas have a saying which I will translate. They say "ichatwele yensa nayambaya wine"’ which means history repeats itself. We hope with these positions, the Government will not face the wrath of the Zambians by, once again, repeating the so-called mistakes, which were attributed to the PF Government.

Madam Speaker, with those comments, I thank you very much.

Brig. Gen. Sitwala: Madam Speaker, I am most grateful.

Madam Speaker, I thank you and the Clerk for the support that was given to your Committee. I also thank the hon. Members in this House for supporting this Motion. As I was reading the report, I saw most hon. Members, including Hon. Lusambo who surprised me by turning around, nodding and acknowledging the good job done by His Excellency the President and Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of selecting or appointing very good citizens of the country, who are highly qualified.

Madam Speaker, with those few words, I once again thank everyone for the support given to your Committee, especially the Committee members who did a wonderful job in the two weeks that we sat to scrutinise the appointment of the nominees.

Madam Speaker, I beg to move.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Question put and agreed to.

Madam Speaker: Since there is no further business, can hon. Members who have not delivered their maiden speeches do so. The hon. Member for Kaumbwe still has something on his head. He is still a visitor, so, we will give him time to settle.

Interruptions

ADJOURNMENT

The Vice-President (Mrs Nalumango): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

_______

The House adjourned at 1820 hours until 1430 hours on Thursday, 28^th October, 2021.

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