Wednesday, 9^th October, 2019

 

The House met at 1430 hours

 

[MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

 

NATIONAL ANTHEM

 

PRAYER

 

_______

 

ANNOUNCEMENTS BY MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER

 

SESSIONAL COMMITTEES – MEMBERSHIP

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, in accordance with the provisions of Article 80 of the Constitution of Zambia, Chapter 1 of the Laws of Zambia, and Standing Order 131 of the National Assembly of Zambia Standing Orders of 2016, the Standing Orders Committee has made changes to the composition of some Committees as follows:

 

PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE

 

Committee on Health, Community Development and Social Services

 

Mr A. B. Kapalasa, MP, to replace Ms A. M. Chisangano, MP

 

Committee on Education, Science and Technology

 

Ms A. M. Chisangano, MP

 

Committee on Parastatal Bodies

 

Mr M. Mukumbuta, MP

 

DRAFT NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF ZAMBIA STANDING ORDERS, 2019

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, the House will recall that on 24^th July, 2019, copies of the Draft National Assembly of Zambia Standing Orders, 2019, were circulated to all hon. Members for comments and observations.

 

However, by close of business on 30^th July, 2019, the Office of the Clerk received comments and observations from only three hon. Members. In this regard, at its meeting held on Thursday, 31^st July, 2019, the Standing Orders Committee resolved to hold a one day seminar on the draft Standing Orders as a way of engaging all hon. Members for their input.

 

The seminar will be held in the amphitheatre here at Parliament Buildings on Monday, 28^th October, 2019, starting at 0840 hours. Four renowned resource persons have been invited to make presentations during the seminar and these are:

 

Hon. Amusaa K. Mwanamwambwa   -           Former Speaker of the National Assembly of  

                                                          Zambia

 

Hon. Rabecca A. Kadaga                   -           Speaker of the Parliament of Uganda

 

Hon. Advocate Jacob F. Mudenda     -          Speaker of the Parliament of Zimbabwe

 

Hon. Chifumu K. Banda, SC                         -           Former Deputy Chairperson of Committees

                                                                        of the Whole House in the National                                                                                                   Assembly of Zambia

 

Hon. Members, in view of the foregoing, let me urge all hon. Members to study the draft Standing Orders that have already been circulated to them. Copies are available for those who may not have the draft Standing orders. Those who may have misplaced their copies are urged to contact the Office of the Clerk for either soft or hard copies.

 

I thank you.

 

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MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

 

ZAMBIA GOLD MINING STATUS

 

The Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr Musukwa): Madam Speaker, I thank you for this opportunity that you have given me to update this august House and the nation at large, on the status of gold mining in Zambia.

 

Madam Speaker, gold mining has been taking place in Zambia since the onset of commercial mining of gold-bearing copper deposits. Currently, the country’s annual gold production averages 4,000 kg and it is produced by Kansanshi Mine. However, illegal gold mining and trading has been taking place mostly by Artisanal and small-scale miners in different parts of the country, which include Vubwi, Rufunsa Lundazi, Petauke and Luano districts. These illegal activities have denied the country of the much needed revenue as most of the gold which is reported end up in the hands of foreign traders who take the gold out of the country without paying any taxes to the Government. There is need, therefore, to ensure that the potential for the gold sub-sector to contribute to revenue generation and job creation in our country is harnessed. When the sector is well-regulated and supervised, the country can benefit in terms of job creation and revenue mobilisation.

 

Madam Speaker, following reports of gold mining in the Eastern Province, a multi-disciplinary team comprising of the Government experts was constituted to carry out scoping studies in the affected areas. The studies were undertaken with the view to gather empirical evidence that would assist the Government in developing mechanisms on how the gold sub-sector can be formalised and its potential to contribute towards the creation of meaningful jobs for the local people and the generation of Government revenue. The surveys confirmed the reports of illegal gold mining in these areas as outlined; Rufunsa, Petauke, Vubwi, Lundazi and Luano, which are mainly perpetrated by Zambians. In the process, the mining activities in these areas have attracted many foreigners who in some cases, are involved in direct exploitation, but are mainly involved in the buying of the gold.

 

Madam Speaker, as the House may be aware, there have been many reports of illegal gold mining in Mwinilunga in the recent past. The ministry, through the Geological Survey Department, visited the area in Chief Chibwika’s Chiefdom to confirm the existence of gold. Indeed, the presence of gold was confirmed in Kasenseli Area, where the gold is mainly hosted in the weathered quartz vein and mineralised in the patches within the vein which the illegal small-scale and artisanal gold miners have been panning.

 

Madam, there is no doubt that the significant amount of gold which is being produced by small-scale miners through illegal means has great potential in terms of our country’s economy and mobilisation of local resources. Consequently, it is clear that the country is losing out in terms of revenue and associated benefits. To this effect, the Government is treating this matter with great urgency and it is ensuring that it puts a robust plan to harness this resource. From the time the reports on the preliminary studies were conducted, the Government has been working on a strategy to curb this vice and harness the potential of the sector to contribute to economic diversification and job creation without leaving anyone behind.

 

Madam, the Government, through my ministry, has commenced the implementation of the interventions aimed at full control of the gold mining activities in order to ensure that panning and mining of gold is undertaken in an organised manner. This will benefit the local communities where mining is taking place as well as the country at large. This is under-pinned by the Seventh National Development Plan (7NDP) on the need to diversify the mining sector from copper to other non-traditional minerals, including gold. In this regard, and in line with the President’s directive when he addressed Parliament on how best the potential that lie in the gold sub-sector will be galvanised, the Government is implementing the following measures:

 

1. revoke licences which are dormant in areas with gold potential. This will pave way for licencing the locals as well as other serious investors who have demonstrated the ability to develop these areas. In addition, the Government, will facilitate the formalisation of the Gold Miners and Panners Association and licence them. It will provide technical extension services on mining, geology, safety, health and the environment with a view of enhancing production;
2. deploy security personnel to remove any persons found illegally mining, panning or trading in these areas. All equipment and vehicles present in the designated mining areas where gold is found will be forfeited to the state. The Government will not tolerate illegal gold mining operations and any further loss of revenue to the Treasury. I, therefore, wish to warn the general public against engaging in any illegal mining operations whether in precious metals, gold, precious stones, industrial minerals or base metals;
3. create a vehicle for marketing of the gold produced in order to enhance revenue collection by curtailing the illegal trade of gold. Further, in the interim, the Bank of Zambia (BoZ) has already started purchasing gold as part of the country’s reserves. Additionally, the Government has plans to hold reserves in internationally recognised institutions on agreed terms so that it can build a high profile in terms of the gold perspective; and
4. conduct preliminary geological exploration within the illegal gold mining areas to determine the quantity and the quality of gold and the primary sources. This will generate information on the gold reserves in the mineralised areas and provide stimulus for increased investment in gold by both local and foreign investors.

 

Madam Speaker, these measures will ensure a well-regulated sector for job creation, increased Government revenue and growth of our national economy in general. The House may wish to know that the implementation of these measures will greatly benefit the local people in the affected areas as they will be able to conduct their business in a more orderly, organised and sustainable manner.

 

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, I wish to call for maximum support from relevant stakeholders in the affected areas such as traditional leaders, local authorities, civil society organisations and the affected communities during the implementation of the measures which are meant to benefit both people and the economy of Zambia.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, you are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the ministerial statement given by the hon. Minister.

 

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Madam Speaker, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to raise an issue with the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development. Further, I would like to thank the hon. Minister for the statement he has just issued to this House and the nation at large.

 

Madam Speaker, I am aware that large tracts of land is held on concession by various mining conglomerates in this country, and that ordinary Zambians and other people who are interested to engage in mining cannot do so because the so-called areas that are available as he has indicated, are held by these conglomerates in terms of mining licences or prospecting licences. What measures is the Government putting in place to ensure that Zambians can easily access mining rights over the pieces of land?

 

Mr Musukwa: Madam Speaker, indeed, most parts of our country is filled with tenements held by foreigners and Zambians. I agree with him that tenements for large tracts of land are held by foreign entities at the exclusion of Zambians. My ministry has started a process that is consistent with the law to ensure that all dormant licences are cancelled. I am glad to indicate that as we speak, the Government has so far cancelled over 200 licences held for speculation by various entities, both local and foreign. The idea is to ensure that Zambians participate and take centre stage in the mining industry.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker. 

 

Mr Kamondo (Mufumbwe): Madam Speaker, what measures has the Government put in place to favour the local people who have been custodians of these mineral deposits? This is one way of empowering them and also favouring them because they are at a disadvantage.

 

Mr Musukwa: Madam Speaker, I indicated that the Government’s resolve is to ensure that the local Zambians take centre stage in the mining operations in Zambia. Deliberately, the Government will ensure that Zambians are given an opportunity in terms of licensing. What is required is that Zambians must not be involved in speculations by people who are not on the ground in terms of operations. Either the Zambians or foreigners need to ensure that they start serious work on the ground.

 

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr S. Banda (Kasenengwa): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister did indicate that as a country, we need to optimally exploit gold so that it can contribute to the national economy. He went on to say that most of the Small Scale Enterprises (SMEs) are involved in this particular sector. I am sure that the hon. Minister is aware that mining is capital intensive in terms of exploration, mining, processing and marketing. Is the Government considering a special purpose vehicle between the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines-Investment Holdings (ZCCM-IH) and National Pensions Scheme Authority (NAPSA) to ensure that the local Zambian entrepreneurs are capacitated for them to effectively participate in this sector so that they can contribute to the national economy?

 

 Mr Musukwa: Madam Speaker, the challenge that our local small-scale and artisanal miners face is the lack of capacity in terms of the finance and equipment to exploit resources like gold and other minerals such as gemstones which are endowed in our country. The Government is encouraging entities, especially parastatals such as the National Pensions Scheme Authority (NAPSA) to diversify from their tradition of investing in shopping malls and consider investing in developing and partnering with the small-scale miners in dealing with the issue of low-hanging fruits such as gold, which can give a return almost immediately.

 

On the part of the Government, the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines-Investment Holdings (ZCCM-IH) is a platform and a vehicle that is being used to help our small-scale miners. It is procuring a processing plant to be placed in the Eastern Province, particularly, Vubwi and Petauke constituencies, as a start up measure. This is to ensure that all the resources or the gold that is collected in these areas is brought to these facilities.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Prof. Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Madam Speaker, it is common knowledge that gold is readily available in the eastern part of Africa along the East African Rift Valley all the way from Egypt to South Africa. Therefore, the presence of gold in the eastern part of Zambia is not an accident. It is an historical fact. Now that gold was discovered in Mwinilunga, it indicates that gold is available in many parts of the country. Why is the ministry confining the exploration for gold to only those parts of the country where gold has been seen or discovered? Why is it not extending the exploration to vast areas of the country?

 

Mr Musukwa: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank Hon. Prof. Lungwangwa for amplifying my statement in view of the mineralisation of gold extending from the East African Rift Valley and other areas which touches this country. I am very grateful for that proposition which he has given which is extremely true. However, I have not said that the ministry has localised the exploration only in the areas that I had mentioned. Licences have been given across the country to various entities that are exploring in assorted minerals. The areas that I have talked about have shown known reserves of gold. Otherwise, the exploration is being done across the country. I am sure the ministry will get to Nalikwanda in a short space of time.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Mbulakulima (Milenge): Madam Speaker, I do not know whether to thank the hon. Minister for the statement or not. I am very disgusted, having been a Copperbelt person –

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Member, withdraw the word ‘disgusted’.

 

Mr Mbulakulima: Madam Speaker, I withdraw and replace it with ‘disappointed.’

 

Having come from the Copperbelt Province, I am very disappointed with how the foreigners clearly plunder our resources with impunity. In his statement, the hon. Minister said that if well-regulated – the Government had set up a multi-disciplinary committee to carry out scoping studies in the affected areas. However, I remember when the Patriotic Front (PF) Government came into office, under the leadership of the late President, Mr Michael Sata, within six months the emeralds were being auctioned locally. That is the practical thing I want the hon. Minister to inform the House; the hands-on the job. We want to know because these people are plundering our resources with impunity. How long will it take for this committee that has been set up to produce results? Is it six or ten months, so that all the loopholes are sealed and bring it to an end? We are very disappointed for losing resources to foreigners in this manner.

 

Mr Musukwa: Madam Speaker, when one looks at the opportunities which are at the hands of the PF Government, he/she can express such displeasure as the hon. Member has indicated. However, I want to thank him for realising that when the PF Government came into power, one of the critical issues that it implemented was the auctioning of emeralds which was conducted in Zambia. When the initiative started, some people said that it would not succeed and others said that it would be a loss-making venture. I want to state that from the time that the emerald auctioning started in Zambia, serious profits in terms of value of emeralds have been witnessed. This practice will continue and will be extended to other entities. I must say that last week, the emeralds for Grizzly Mining Company were being auctioned. Those who have been following this sector must have seen that one of the biggest stone that was mined from their operations was displayed. This will continue to promote transparency and accountability in mineral resource management.

 

Madam Speaker, the PF Government under the leadership of His Excellency the President, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu has put a high premium on low-hanging fruits such as the exploitation of gold. The hon. Minister of Finance has put resources in the Budget to ensure that this is done almost immediately. So, I would like to assure the hon. Member of Parliament for Milenge that within a space of six months, he should be able to see change in terms of how these mineral resources are administered, especially gold on which the Government is putting on a high premium.

 

Mr Speaker, I thank you. 

 

Mr Muchima (Ikeleng’i): Madam Speaker, with the discovery of gold in Mwinilunga, when the Government has been ignited and woken up to the issue of gold in Zambia. I am aware that gold in Mwinilunga was discovered by some villagers. Does the Government have any clue about the reserves of the gold deposits in the North-Western Province, since the hon. Minister mentioned that mines have exploited about 4,000 kg of gold?

 

Mr Musukwa: Madam Speaker, I know that the hon. Member of Parliament for Ikeleng’i has the heart for the North-Western Province very close to his chest and I understand his submission. However, the issue of gold in Zambia has not been awakened by the discovery of gold mining which is done in the North-Western Province. In my statement, I indicated that in excess of 4,000 kg of gold is mined at Kansanshi Mine. If the hon. Member remembers very well, Kansanshi Mine is in the North-Western Province and that is a formal operation and exploitation of gold. Therefore, this process has been going on. Indeed the discovery of gold in Mwinilunga was done by the local people as they tried to exploit in the area. I do not want to call them illegal miners, but as local people.

 

The Government will continue ensuring that a special purpose vehicle is created for the local people so that they are part and parcel of this discovery. However, the Government would like to warn the people of Mwinilunga and other areas that they should not be involved in illegal exploitation of gold deposits because the law will visit anyone involved in that. The hon. Member for Ikeleng’i would have to help the Government in reaching out to the people.

 

 I thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Mukosa (Chinsali): Madam Speaker, what role do chiefs and other traditional leaders play in the issuance of mining licenses and allocation of land for mining activities? Often times, we have seen that when land is allocated for mining activities, some chiefs want to become shareholders so that they gain certain interests.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

I will only allow that question if the hon. Minister has an answer, otherwise it is outside the ministerial statement.

 

Mr Musukwa: Madam Speaker, chiefs and other stakeholders such as civil societies, councillors, hon. Members of Parliament or leaders in short, have a role to play in their various areas but are limited to that of social licensing. As hon. Members may be aware, mineral reserves are vested in the President on behalf of the people of Zambia. Chiefs, counsellors and other stakeholders have no mandate under the law to issue licenses or indeed demarcate pieces of land for not only gold but all mineral resources. Mineral licensing is a preserve of His Excellency the President. Yes, people who especially want to exploit these resources need to get social licenses. They cannot just start operating in any chiefdom without getting a social license from the chief and the local people.

 

Madam, in terms of beneficiation, the Government would like to see communities form entities or co-operatives in which these benefits are accrued rather than to individuals. This is the structure and standard practice in terms of licensing. It does not stop licence holders to not only pay homage and respect to the chiefs but also operate. A social license in terms of how one goes on about his/her business in the area is encouraged.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Kambita (Zambezi East): Madam Speaker, not long ago, when gold was discovered in Mwinilunga, there was a case where some politicians in the province who were working with some security officers were named in the issue that caused confusion in the area. Hence, security measures were alleged to have been put in place. Could the hon. Minister enlighten the people of North-Western Province of the kind of security measures put in place to deter those politicians, especially from the ruling party who have the appetite of jumping the gun –

 

Hon. Government Members: Question!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

The hon. Member for Zambezi-East will restrict his question to the issue of security measures.

 

Mr Kambita: Madam Speaker, the biggest concern is about politicians. What real security measures have been put in place to assure the people of the North-Western Province that some Patriotic Front (PF) members and their friends will not exploit those minerals before us the people of the North-Western Province benefit from them?

 

Madam Speaker: Order!

 

The hon. Minister of Mines and Mineral Development will restrict his response to the issue of security measures put in place.

 

Mr Musukwa: Madam Speaker, I would like to preface my answer in this fashion. Firstly, I earlier stated that the discovery of gold has been with us for a long time. As long as copper was mined, gold came as a by-product. Further, apart from copper deposits, in areas where gold is produced as a by-product, there is discovery of gold in Vubwi, Petauke, Lundazi, Rufunsa and Luano. I, therefore, do not see why we should have peculiarities in terms of how gold resources in the North-Western Province should be managed. I want to assure the hon. Member that the same security measures that the Government has put in these other areas will prevail even in the North-Western Province.

 

Madam, once again, I want to urge our people in the North-Western Province to ensure that they follow the law in the exploitation of resources for the betterment of this country. As a country and as a people, once again, we need to unite over issues that take our country forward. This resource once galvanised can create employment and also contribute significantly to the economic performance of our country. We need to work together and move forward. Otherwise, the issues of corruption in the exploitation of these resources will be fought with vigour by the Patriotic Front (PF) Government.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Dr Malama (Kanchibiya): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for that statement that has brought hope to the country. He noted and alluded to the fact that there were security measures which are needed and a multi-sectoral response involving the Zambia Police Service, Immigration Department and other wings of the Government. It is an expensive undertaking against wealth creation, job creation and revenue generation. It is a good investment. Has the Ministry of Mines and Mineral Development received the necessary support to ensure that there is a sustained security presence in these areas so that foreigners do not take advantage of the wealth of the country?

 

Mr Musukwa: Madam Speaker, I must admit that for a long time, the Government has had loopholes in terms of security oversight in these areas. It has now stepped up the security in order to ensure that it gets value for these resources which can help develop the country. So, the multi-sectoral approach of all security agencies and other departments is being enhanced because it was noticed that the local people and the leadership in areas such as Mwinilunga and Vubwi, have been conniving with illegal miners to deprive the people of Zambia of this resource. Therefore, the Government is moving to ensure that the multi-sectoral approach is enhanced to ensure transparency and accountability.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Livune (Katombola): Madam Speaker, we seem to be very slow in moving towards getting the proper benefits from high value minerals such as gold. The hon. Minister spoke about Vubwi, Luano and Petauke. What is happening there which will give us the comfort that the country is producing gold which can benefit the country and assist us to deal with the huge debt that we have? Where are we on this matter? The Government seems to be slow in addressing this situation. These minerals have been discovered, but what is it doing about it? Is the nation able to produce gold now? Can the hon. Minister update the nation on this issue.

 

Mr Musukwa: Madam Speaker, the Government has now started implementing measures to generate value from these minerals to help build the country. Like the hon. Member has rightly indicated, there have been leakages of these minerals, which have been benefiting foreigners and some individuals. Once these resources are mopped-up, they can help the Government in terms of liquidity and financing and managing the loans which it has acquired for development.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Kabanda (Serenje): Madam Speaker, there seems to be a lot of excitement among Zambian entrepreneurs to venture into indiscriminate mining of gold. What measures is the Government putting in place to ensure that this diminishing resource is kept for a rainy day?

 

Mr Musukwa: Madam Speaker, there is need to ensure that this diminishing resource is safeguarded. The Government, through the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development, has a structured mine plan of exploitation of this resource in a sustainable manner which is approved by a directorate in order to ensure that the future generations will have an opportunity to mine this resource as well.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Jamba (Mwembezhi): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister will realise that the tenements held by many mining conglomerates are not for one mineral. They are for several minerals such as gold, silver and aluminum. The hon. Minister said some licences are dormant. When he said they are “dormant” what did he mean? For example, Konkola Copper Mines (KCM) in Nampundwe is not mining gold but its licence shows that it is for mining gold. Is the hon. Minister saying that the Government will grab that tenement so that someone can be mining –

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Withdraw the word ‘grab.’

 

Mr Jamba: Madam Speaker, I replace that word with ‘repossess.’

 

Madam, there are tenements for minerals such as copper and gold held by mining companies but those companies are only mining copper, and not gold. Is the ministry going to allow someone with a licence to mine several minerals in an area where there is gold and copper to mine only one mineral? 

 

Mr Musukwa: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member of Parliament is correct that the tenements that the ministry gives show various minerals in terms of the licencing. Licences are given to mine a list of minerals because minerals occur together or with other minerals in many cases. To ensure that that there are no leakages and losses as a result of various mining entities not declaring what they have been mining, the Government will be consistence with implementing the Mines and Minerals Development Act so that mining houses declare all the minerals which they mine. It will also ensure that they declare the grades of the minerals so that the minerals can add value to this economy. There is no way a mining house can produce copper and throw away the gold. The Government has discovered that many mining entities have been mining gold alongside copper, but they have not been declaring the gold. The Government has put a higher premium on oversight on exploration, production, processing and marketing of minerals to ensure that all the minerals which are produced are reported. It is going resolve these leakages in the sector.  The House will be interested to know that the European Union (EU) has financed the project under the ministry which is dealing with these leakages from production to export in the minerals value chain.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Mutale (Chitambo): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister spoke about illegal mining in this country. I think the illegal miners would like to harmonise and legalise their operations at some point but it appears that they are facing barriers to do that. One barrier I know is called a consent letter which a miner must acquire from the chief for him to acquire a mining licence processed by the ministry. Has the Government put a deliberate policy to address this barrier that seems to be blocking would-be miners to access the noble mining licence?

 

Mr Musukwa: Madam Speaker, as a matter of fact, I want to stress that the Government will ensure that people who exploit our resources. The Government will not promote illegality. All illegal miners must follow the laid down procedure to acquire licences. Just as the way the Government gives amnesty to people who illegally acquire firearms so that they surrender them, it also gives amnesty to all illegal miners so that they formalise their mining operations in order to support the Government because it has been losing a lot of revenue in this area.

 

Madam Speaker, as regards their royal highnesses, I have indicated that the onus, in terms of licencing, lies with the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development on behalf of His Excellency, the President, who is the custodian of the mineral reserves of the Republic of Zambia. Their royal highnesses give consent in terms of agreements for people to operate in their areas. As I indicated, a person cannot go to a chiefdom and begin to operate without paying homage to their royal highnesses and explaining the programme and the benefit of his/her operation to the community. That process must not discourage or disadvantage the people who want to develop the chiefdoms by partnering with the local people and their royal highnesses.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Minister, the issue is that of consent. If consent is not granted by the traditional leaders, what is the position of the Government?

 

Mr Musukwa: Madam Speaker, their royal highnesses have a duty to give consent to investors, both local and international. If they do not give consent, the law provides that where consent is unreasonably denied, the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development will give it.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Mr Mwila (Chimwemwe): Madam Speaker, we have been hearing from the ministry about the scoping studies in Lundazi, Vubwi, Petauke, Luano and others for a number of years now. Meanwhile, the youth in these areas have remained jobless. I would like to find out why the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines-Investment Holdings (ZCCM-IH) cannot be funded to commence operations so that the youth can be employed and the Government start getting foreign exchange which is needed in the Control 99 Account.

 

Mr Musukwa: Madam Speaker, I do not know the “many times” that the hon. Member is referring to. To the best of my recollection, the scoping studies that have been done by the ministry have been mainly limited to the areas that I stated. The ZCCM-IH is a business entity that looks at profitability in terms of investments. It has its own structure verifying that the business undertaking in whatever area will generate profit. I am glad to note that the ZCCM-IH conducted studies that indicated that putting up a processing plant in Vubwi, Petauke and Rufunsa will be profitable for it and it has since started the procurement process. The Government has also urged the ZCCM-IH to ensure that it quickly partners with it for the tenement for Mwinilunga so that the country can galvanise job creation for our people in these areas.

 

Madam Speaker, I understand the frustration of the hon. Member of Parliament. The ministry needs to move with speed so that people can have job opportunities and placements in these areas where these resources are found.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Mr Chali (Nchanga): Madam Speaker, apart from the 4,000 kg or four tonnes the hon. Minister mentioned as being declared  and exported by Kansanshi Mine Plc, is there any gram of gold declared by any of the other mining companies or even illegal miners that has been recorded as having been exported?

 

Mr Musukwa: Madam Speaker, the answer is an emphatic yes. In fact, the annual values for production of gold takes into account all the gold that is exploited by other mining entities apart from Kansanshi Mine Plc. We did not include them because their values are smaller than those for Kansanshi. Actually, Kansanshi has the biggest value. You will note that there are other big mining houses that produce gold, and some legal small scale miners also produce gold and they provide the values to the ministry. Unfortunately, most of our gold which is exported out of our country is unreported because it is illegally mined. This is why the Government is working to ensure that this is addressed so that the country benefits from the gold.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Mr Sampa (Kasama Central): Madam Speaker, Zambia has potential to grow its economy through gold mining. The gold could be sold to the Bank of Zambia (BoZ). I want to know the position of the ministry as regards some chiefs who seem to be demanding huge sums of money from mine investors, hence chasing away would-be investors in this sector.

 

Mr Musukwa: Madam Speaker, it is illegal for any of our stakeholders, their royal highnesses, ministry officials or indeed anyone associated with the licencing system for our mineral resources across the country to demand monetary payment and other things. All those are vices which must not be encouraged. As a country, we have a way in which we approach their royal highnesses. Our royal highnesses must be limited to traditional respects. They should not turn into commercial businesses and frighten away both local and international investors.

 

Madam Speaker, I stated that the BoZ has already started procuring gold as a start up project. In short, we hope to build gold reserves through BoZ and in the process, escalate it to another platform such as Switzerland to ensure that we have an international perspective in terms of our gold reserves.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Mr Musonda (Kamfinsa): Madam Speaker, during the days of the ZCCM, we had a precious metal plant in Ndola which became defunct after privatisation. This plant used to treat slug from refineries in Mufulira and Kitwe. This is where we used to get our gold, selenium and silver from. Currently, mining houses are allowed to export blister and anode copper. The refineries are dormant, yet they could have been used to assess sludge for contents of silver, selenium and gold. What measures is the Government putting in place to ban the exportation of blister and anode copper so that they can be processed to cathode level to produce sludge which will enable refineries to offer employment to Zambians?

 

Mr Musukwa: Madam Speaker, what has grounded most processing facilities is the export of materials such as blister and anode copper without necessarily extracting all the elements that are found in these resources. The Government has started a process of ensuring that processing plants of this kind that was in Ndola are hatched under the job creation cluster so that reserves are built and employment created using this platform. This is the way to go, and this process is revisited.

 

I thank you, Madam.

     

Dr Kopulande (Chembe): Madam Speaker, I am sure the hon. Minister is aware that natural resources are the endowments that the Almighty creator gave to the people in each locality. In the case of Zambia, we have minerals and other natural resources. In his answers to earlier questions, the hon. Minister alluded to the issue of encouraging Zambians. I would like to plead with the hon. Minister to give this House specific measures which the Government is taking to ensure that Zambians take greater participation in the mining of not only gold, but all the mineral resources in this country. How is the hon. Minister using the licence revocation system to re-allocate the licences to Zambians for the benefit of the local people?

 

Mr Musukwa: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for a very good question.

 

Madam Speaker, Zambians need to rise to the occasion and be counted. Copper, or indeed other minerals, are a comparative advantage for the country. The Government can do all these other things like diversification to agriculture, tourism or construction, but it needs to generate resources from the mining industry in order to invest in other sectors. The key people that must be in the forefront are Zambians.

 

What the Government is doing is that it deliberately encourages Zambian owned businesses in the mining subsector to be in the forefront. This is what our friends in the past had done even in other jurisdictions, whereby any entity in terms of business should be with local partners, so that the growth of Zambian businesses can be promoted.

 

Madam Speaker, in the mining sector, the Government envisages increased participation by Zambians. For a long time, it has been promoting licencing of small scale and artisanal mining to Zambians. That is why many Zambians have failed to find investors in the mining entities. They hold small licences, which cannot attract huge investments. What the Government has done is to open up and ensure that Zambians are given large scale mining licences so that for once, they will be able to look for partners who will help them develop these resources. It is hoped that this is an undertaking that Zambians must look to and take advantage of the Government’s initiative.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Kalobo (Wusakile): Madam Speaker, over 80 per cent of the mining sector is owned and controlled by these multinational companies that have exhibited corporate greediness through tax evasion, transfer pricing and all sorts of tax avoidances. Does the Government have plans to restrict these new gold sites to Zambians so that we are not dribbled by these multinational companies? I have also heard him say that –

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Withdraw the word ‘dribbled.’

 

Mr Kalobo: Madam, the multinational companies are disadvantaging us through tax evasion and other methods of tax avoidance. Does the Government have plans to restrict these multinational companies from owning these new gold sites? I also heard the hon. Minister say that he wants to encourage Zambians to own these mines. Therefore, what help will they be given in terms of exploration, especially that it is a major setback for most small scale miners?

 

Mr Musukwa: Madam Speaker, I am very delighted by that question. I want to agree with him that these multinational companies have short-changed our country by practicing tax evasion, price transferring and all forms of ensuring that Zambia is on the peripherals. That is why the Government through the hon. Minister of Finance in the new tax measures that have been introduced, has stated clearly that it streamlined the Value Added Tax (VAT) in order to ensure that all the loopholes that exist are addressed. This move will ensure that the issues relating to tax evasion and price transferring are addressed.

 

Madam Speaker, in promoting the small scale miners or Zambians, the Government has put the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines-Investment Holdings (ZCCM-IH) at the centre of ensuring that it provides key technical experts and finance in terms of Zambians participating in the exploration of our mineral resources.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Nanjuwa (Mumbwa): Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Minister for that statement. I am aware that in March, 2016, the Government assured the people of Mumbwa that gold mining at Lwili will be commissioned in 2017 and more jobs will be created. However, up to now, not much has been seen in terms of gold mining at the mine. What is the position of gold mining at Lwili in Mumbwa District?

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Member for Mumbwa, you might want to file in a question so that the hon. Minister can investigate and respond to that question about gold mining in Mumbwa.

 

Ms Kucheka (Zambezi West): Madam Speaker, mineral exploration in Zambia takes more than fifteen years. Why does it take so long to conduct these explorations? Is there a way in which the period of exploration can be shortened?

 

Mr Musukwa: Madam Speaker, indeed, if there is a process where mining operations takes place, it is the exploration period because this is a period of discovery. This is a period when mining entities put resources in a resource which they have not yet defined. In short, it is called a buffer zone area where money is poured into a project which has not been defined and in the process, it takes a lot of time to ensure that there are certain of mineralisation of the process.

 

Madam Speaker, if they have not discovered the minerals through exploration, they cannot mine. In short, before mining takes place, there has to be exploration and that is why this process takes significant years in order to ensure that the resource is defined. It is economical to undertake mining and all the parameters are put in place in order to ensure that mining is viable.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I will take questions from the hon. Member for Lufwanyama, hon. Member for Dundumwezi, hon. Member for Chama South, hon. Member for Kasempa, hon. Member for Chilanga, hon. Member for Nangoma and hon. Member for Keembe.

 

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Fungulwe (Lufwanyama): Madam Speaker, in answering Hon. Mwansa Mbulakulima’s question, the hon. Minister stated that just last week, Grizzly Mine was auctioning emeralds, whereby in the history of emeralds from Lufwanyama, there was a very big emerald weighing about 50 kg. I know that the hon. Minister is aware that Lufwanyama is one of the richest places in terms of mineral wealth, particularly emeralds. Now, this time around Grizzly Mine has auctioned these minerals, while the local people do not even know these minerals. Why are these auctions not done in the areas where these minerals are mined, like in Lufwanyama where emeralds are mined?

 

Mr Musukwa: Madam Speaker, I know that coming from an area were these resources are coming from, the hon. Member would like the auction to take place in Lufwanyama.

 

Madam Speaker, the Government envisage that local communities where these resources are exploited such as Lufwanyama are developed using the same resources. Auctions are done in strategic places because of the people who come to buy these materials. As you know, the Government’s target market is foreign entities. Therefore, there is need to have certain amenities in these areas in order to manage some of these areas and accommodate the foreign entities. Once we get very good infrastructure in terms of hotels, it will be a good idea to ensure that the people in Lufwanyama witness some of these activities within their locality.

 

Madam, hon. Members will note that even when local auctions are conducted in Lusaka though most of these mineral resources come from the Copperbelt. It is about the clientele and these are the people who come from all over the world. The main international airport is found in Lusaka and it all about buying and selling. Therefore, the Government has to create a platform for a good opportunity to sell. That is why, for now, everything has been restricted to Lusaka. However, in future, it will move to the Copperbelt Province and particularly, Lufwanyama.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwezi): Madam Speaker, when answering a question asked by Hon. Mwiimbu, the Leader of the Opposition, the hon. Minister indicated that some mining rights have been withdrawn from some of the multinational companies. Is there anything that the Government is doing to ensure that Zambians are informed so that they can also participate in the mining of gold?

 

Mr Musukwa: Madam Speaker, thank you for providing me a platform to clarify that the cancelled mining rights are not just for foreigners, but also for Zambians. The hon. Members will actually be surprised to learn that the majority of the licences that have been cancelled belong to Zambians and this is because they held these licences for speculation. Several Zambians were given licences but they have been holding them for speculation for many years. So, the law is not going to choose because it is blind to ethnicity. Whoever is found in this net, their licence will be cancelled.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Mung’andu (Chama South): Madam Speaker, I heard the hon. Minister talking about the storage of gold in international reserves. However, I want him to comment further or clarify on what measures have been put in place to ensure that our central bank holds this gold. We know too well that the world economic powers have the highest gold reserves, like the United States of America (USA) followed by Germany and China. If that is done, all the debts will be sorted out. Therefore, what measures has the Government put in place to ensure that this gold is retrieved from private companies and well kept at our central bank?

 

Mr Musukwa: Madam Speaker, indeed, the Government would like to take advantage of the low-hanging fruits in order to build the reserves for gold. There is need for the Government to be strategic although it has a partnership with the BoZ, which is already buying the gold on a commercial basis from our local producers. It also envisages, through the economic cluster and job creation, that a platform at the international level is created, to make sure that these reserves add more value and credibility in terms of the international perspective.

 

As hon. Members may know, global economics operate with global confidence. Therefore, if people are told that the Government has gold at BoZ, they would like to see if it can be transacted even at an international platform. Furthermore, some of nation’s import cover will be built based on the gold reserve it has. Instead of people selling these materials cheaply, especially the small scale miners across the country who are actually exploited by many foreigners, it is thought that this process will help the Government to mop-up the gold and use it for its economic gain.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Ms Tambatamba (Kasempa): Madam Speaker, in his policy statement, the hon. Minister has said that there will be revocation of licences for gold mining. However, there are some licences that are combined as was mentioned earlier on. There are some licences for aluminium/gold, copper/gold and iron/gold and some of such occurrences are in Kasempa. There is one gold mining clearing licence and others which are combined. Is the Government going to also revoke the licences that are of a combined nature?

 

Mr Musukwa: Madam Speaker, I thought I dealt with that question earlier on, but for the sake of clarity, I will say it again. I want to agree with Hon. Tambatamba, like I did with Hon. Machila Jamba, that indeed there are many licences that have a list of not just one mineral, but several. What has been happening over time is that many mining entities that have been mining these resources, either copper or gold, have been declaring only one mineral and they have been using the other mineral for profit margins at the expense of the Zambian people. In short, there has been a lot of unfair trade against the people of Zambia.

 

There is no way that one could be mining copper and then when he/she finds gold, he/she throws the copper away or he/she could be mining gold and when he/she finds copper, he/she throws the gold away. They have been using comparative advantage. That is why Hon. Musonda, the hon. Member of Parliament for Kamfinsa, indicated that this idea of exporting copper blisters instead of processing them, like we used to do in Ndola, is what has created this gap. So, the Government would like to address this gap. In doing so, it will be very mindful to indicate two minerals on one licences. When you look at the licences that we have given at a snap shot, I have not seen a licence which was just issued for one mineral. No, it is not possible. So, they need to ensure that they report both minerals in order to ensure that Kasempa develops.

 

I thank you. Madam Speaker.

 

Mrs Phiri (Chilanga): Madam Speaker, most of the foreign investors who come into this country to mine our minerals come with a bankable project proposal which enables them to access capital from our local banks. What is the ministry doing to educate our people to prepare bankable project proposals to enable them access capital from the local commercial banks such as the Development Bank of Zambia (DBZ), the Citizen Economic Empowerment Commission (CEEC), the Zambia National Commercial Bank (ZANACO) and other financial lending institutions? We need local investors to own mines instead of looking for partners from outside.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

I know that the hon. Minister has already dealt with the issue of empowerment and capacity building of local miners, but he can restate it.

 

Mr Musukwa: Madam Speaker, the Government would like to see local people, especially in the host communities where these mineral resources are found, be empowered and take centre stage in mineral exploration. I agree with the hon. Member that local Zambians need to leverage financial entities by providing bankable business plans so that they can access finances in order to participate in this sector.

 

Madam, I also want to take advantage of the question asked by the hon. Member and state that Zambia is part of the global village and, therefore, needs partnership with other entities such as foreign investors. It cannot survive in silos. It needs to partner with others. We need foreign investment as a ministry and we envisage that there is continuation in the operation of the mining industry based on private partnerships.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Hamusonde (Nangoma): Madam Speaker, I am sure the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development is aware that there is a gold mine in Nangoma. Who are the owners of this mine and why are there no activities taking place there?

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

 That question is completely unrelated to the subject on the Floor.

 

Laughter

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The hon. Member for Nangoma should file a question concerning that issue.

 

Ms Kasune (Keembe): Madam Speaker, we hear a lot about valuable minerals in different places in Zambia. I am just wondering whether the ministry has done a survey or has information of where some of these minerals, especially the gold which is under discussion, are found in the 116 districts in the country. Do we have a database so that we do not lose out on these valuable minerals?

 

Mr Musukwa: Madam Speaker, yes, the ministry has a database at the geological survey department where geological maps are produced. The geological maps are sold to the public. Now, with the coming in of the internet, hon. Members can search the online database to determine what licences exist, for instance, in Keembe and the minerals which are being exploited.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

I know that I had said that I would end with the hon. Member for Keembe, but I will allow the hon. Member for Mapatizya to ask a question.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Miyanda (Mapatizya): Madam Speaker, I would like to thank you for this opportunity to ask a question. In addition, I would also like to thank the hon. Minister for the statement.

 

Madam, I am concerned with the issue of asking for the consent of the chiefs or their royal highnesses for mining operations. If I heard the hon. Minister correctly, he indicated that in an event where the royal highnesses decide not to give consent to a miner for a mining operation, the ministry would still go ahead and give consent. How would the hon. Minister normalise the situation between the ministry and the chiefs?

 

Mr Musukwa: Madam Speaker, I am very glad to note that when we used to indicate to speak, we used to catch your eye. I saw that the hon. Member of Parliament for Mapatizya caught your eye on the machine.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Musukwa: Madam, the hon. Member may wish to know that the Government would not like to be in confrontation with stakeholders such as their royal highnesses or other licence holders. As I indicated before, the mineral resources are held by His Excellency, the President, on behalf of the people of Zambia. So, under normal circumstances, there is not supposed to be that rift. In fact, it is not just the consent from the chiefs that is required, consent from other licence holders is required as well. For example, if a large company like the Zambia ZCCM-IH is a licence holder in an area, and then a Zambian or another entity wants a little area within that area, ZCCM-IH also has to give consent to the new entity. Sometimes, a chief may be reluctant to give consent because the licence holder started working in the area without paying respect to the chief and explaining the development programme. Otherwise, most chiefs support development. The quest for the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development to give consent in view of such a lapse is anchored in the law. The law provides that in an event where a chief or any licence holder does not give consent, the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development will give the consent on behalf of His Excellency, the President.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: How do you harmonise the relationship between the developer or investor and the chief?

 

Mr Miyanda: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Musukwa: Madam Speaker, the chief has jurisdiction in the chiefdom which is vested in the Republic of Zambia. Furthermore, the custodian of the mineral resources and land rights is the President. So, at a point where the chief diverts from ensuring that there is development in his area, the Government has a responsibility to its people and that would be undertaken.

 

I thank you, Madam.

_______

 

QUESTION FOR ORAL ANSWER

 

SERENJE FEEDER ROADS REHABILITATION

 

30. Mr Kabanda (Serenje) asked the Minister of Local Government:

 

1. whether the Government has any plans to rehabilitate feeder roads in Serenje Parliamentary Constituency; and i
2. if so, how many feeder roads are earmarked for rehabilitation in 2019.

 

The Minister of Local Government (Dr Banda): Madam Speaker, the Government has plans to rehabilitate feeder roads in Serenje Parliamentary Constituency in line with its three-year infrastructure development plan. In view of the above, the Government has plans to rehabilitate four feeder roads in 2019, namely:

 

1. 84 km of Serenje/Chisomo Road;
2. 83 km of Ndabala/Chibale Road;
3. 72 km of Ngaswa/Mapepala Road; and
4. 26 km of Mulilima/Chibale Road.

 

 

Madam, the Government is currently undertaking rehabilitation works on the 84 km Serenje/Chisomo Road at a cost K171,883,828.31, and the contractor is Shachitari Contractors. The 83 km of Ndabala/Chibale Road is currently under procurement, while the other two roads are yet to be procured.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Mutale (Chitambo): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister mentioned the three roads which are going to be worked on in Serenje. If I got him right, one of them is being worked on right now. Now that we are almost in the rainy season, would the hon. Minister assure the people of Serenje that something will be done about the feeder roads in Serenje before the onset of the rains.

 

Dr Banda: Madam Speaker, something is already being done. Like I said, the Government is currently undertaking rehabilitation works on the 84 km Serenje/Chisomo at a cost of K171,883,828.31. Maybe, the hon. Member wanted me to tell the hon. Member that the ministry is working on all the roads. It is not possible to do that because it can only handle one road at a time. We have already started working on the road that has been procured, which is Serenje/Chisomo Road. 

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr W. Banda (Milanzi): Madam Speaker, is the Government considering engaging only Zambian contractors to construct the roads in Serenje Parliamentary Constituency?

 

Dr Banda: Madam Speaker, it is the Government policy that all feeder roads should be given to Zambian contractors for purposes of empowering our people. Only the major roads which require heavy machinery or those that require upgrading to bituminous standards are constructed by companies from outside the country. On anything to do with gravelling of feeder roads, Zambian contractors are given first priority to do the work. 

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Mr Mung’andu (Chama South): Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister in a position to share with this august House the priority list for the feeder roads in various districts, including township roads under his ministry? It is not only the people of Serenje who want to know when their feeder roads and district roads will be completed but also the people in other districts like Nakonde, Chama, Mpika and many others in the same situation as Serenje. Is the hon. Minister in a position to share with the hon. Members of Parliament the timeline for working on the roads so that they can explain it to the electorates?

 

Dr Banda: Madam Speaker, yes, I am in a position to come and share the list. I also encourage the hon. Members of Parliament to take time to visit the officers in the ministry, if they want information about the feeder and township roads. I asked all the hon. Members of Parliament to take interest in this matter and work with the local councils and submit the priority roads to be procured in their areas. Right now, the ministry is procuring roads in five provinces and the roads in the other five provinces will be procured in three months time. The first three months is ending next month.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

When will you be able to share the available information through this House?

 

Dr Banda: Madam Speaker, I will do it as soon as possible, I will take it as an urgent matter.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

_______

 

MOTIONS

 

BUDGET 2020

 

(Debate resumed)

 

Mr Kabanda (Serenje): Madam Speaker, in my conclusion when debate was adjourned, I was referring to the by-elections. I said that people do not choose to die in order to create by-elections. Death is natural. However, those who leave their political parties –

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

The hon. Member’s time expired.

 

Mrs Chinyama (Kafue): Madam Speaker, I thank you for this opportunity to add the voice of the people of Kafue on the 2020 National Budget which was presented to this House under the theme “Focusing National Priorities towards Stimulating the Domestic Economy.”

 

Madam Speaker, in the Budget Speech, we were informed that this Budget will focus on creating fiscal space, ensuring debt sustainability and dismantling domestic arrears. I have noted that a number of my hon. Colleagues have congratulated the hon. Minister of Finance on this nice Budget, in their opinion. However, I will reserve my accolades until the work has been done. That is when I will give my view.

 

Madam Speaker, let me indicate that I did take time to look at the Budget and what was presented under each pillar, including the proposals. In the area of economic diversification and job creation, the Budget talks about industrialisation and how we want to export more goods to support the Gross Domestic Product (GDP). There is a proposal to introduce industrial yards which should respond to our job creation challenge. I am wondering whether the intentions are not the same as what we have seen under the creation of the economic zones, whose results we are yet to see.

 

Madam Speaker, I also noted that the speech reported an increase in the amount of revenue collected through the national road tolling programme. It indicated that as at August 2019, a total of K765 million was raised compared to K549 million over the same period in 2018 under the programme. I hope that this revenue will benefit the road maintenance issue that we just discussed in the previous question. The primary intension of the use of the money coming from the toll gates is road maintenance. However, I have heard unconfirmed statements that this money has become a source of Government revenue which is being used to do all sorts of things that it has not been able to do because of its limited fiscal space.

 

Madam Speaker, in the pillar in the Sixth National Development Plan (SNDP) which addresses vulnerability and poverty reduction, I noted the aspect of social protection. The Government is looking at empowering girls and retaining about 16,000 girls in schools, and it has made certain provisions for them. It reminded me of the Motion about making efforts to supply free sanitary pads for girls in schools. This is an opportunity to actualise that aspiration of providing free sanitary pads for our girls and support their retention in school. A number of stakeholders liked the fact that this House approved that Motion. Others have even gone further and suggested that we can make the programme more sustainable by making recyclable pads so that we do not fail to implement that programme because of the heavy cost implication.   

 

Madam Speaker, another point under the pillar of reducing developmental inequalities is the rural connectivity projects. I am keen to see what will be achieved under that particular pillar. Also, the most interesting under human development is where the Government is proposing to continue supporting education, vocational training and entrepreneurship development. The language used is that the Government will continue prioritising. Now, if what we have experienced in the education sector is called prioritising, then that is where I was a bit conservative and opted to wait until I see. In real terms, what has turned out to be the Government’s priorities is something else other than what the real priorities are, according to some of us who are stakeholders, as already pointed out by others.

 

Madam, I also took note of the observation made by Hon. Prof. Lungwangwa that interestingly, in this Budget, it has not been mentioned how many teachers will be employed in 2020. I am sure that is the information that trained teachers who are in the streets were hoping to hear. We understand that there are more than 50,000 trained teachers who have not been absorbed either by the Government or the private sector. Obviously, like all of us, the unemployed teachers would have been very keen to hear what the Government is intending to do in terms of recruitment numbers. Of course, the only ones who were mentioned are those who were recruited this year, of which 1,263 were female. However, this having been the 2020 Budget, it would have been good to hear the plans for next year.

 

Madam, in addition, you may be aware that the education sector had embarked on what was called the fast-track training programme for teachers in science and technological subjects. A number of such students were sent to private colleges like St. Eugene University in Katuba, which group from the time this programme started has never graduated. Students finished their studies, but we understand that the university has withheld the results. Therefore, these students cannot graduate because the Government has failed to meet its obligation of paying that particular institution for this programme it was contracted to do.

 

In this regard, students who are supposed to be graduating are in limbo. I had a specific request by the concerned and affected students. I was asked to mention this before the Floor of the House on their behalf so that the Government can consider paying off the debt owed to that university for the students to graduate and think about what to do with their qualifications, if not joining a pool of their fellow 50,000 unemployed teachers. I did and still sympathise with the teachers because in their conversations, they wonder what they have done to deserve not being recruited by the Government. The unemployed teachers have these concerns, especially when they see that the health sector not too long ago mopped up almost all the students that had graduated from different training colleges across the country.

 

Madam, I would wish to urge the Government to do something about this other human resource which has remained very frustrated and also encourage unemployed teachers to continue looking at other opportunities which they may have outside the country.

 

Mr Lubinda: On a point of order, Madam.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

 

Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, I rise on a very compelling point of order. Parliament is a respected House. The people who listen to Parliament take it for granted that all of us who use the privilege of Parliament limit ourselves to stating facts and nothing, but facts.

 

Madam, the hon. Member of Parliament for Kafue has just completed making an allegation, namely that St. Eugene University run by the Catholics in Chisamba...

 

Mrs Chinyama: No, I said Katuba!

 

Mr Lubinda: ... has refused to graduate students because the Government has not paid. That is a statement which has the capacity of being an advert against that university because those who have applied for enrolment at the same school may, after hearing such a statement, withdraw for fear that they may not graduate too. Is the hon. Member in order to make such a demeaning and damaging statement on the Floor of the House without laying any evidence on the Table? That is a statement that is bent on destroying the image and reputation of an institution that is not capable of defending itself using the same platform that is being used to damage it.

 

I seek your serious ruling.

 

Mr Mundubile: Point!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Unless the hon. Member for Kafue has evidence to substantiate the claim she made, she is out of order. I order that she withdraws that statement and continues her debate on the Budget. Does the hon. Member for Kafue have the evidence to substantiate the claim?

 

Mrs Chinyama: Madam Speaker, what I have is the evidence of the communication from a concerned student who has failed to graduate because the Government has not paid St Eugene University the fees that it is supposed to pay for the students to graduate.

 

Mrs Chinyama waved her phone to indicate a message on it.

 

Ms Kapata: That is private!

 

Mrs Chinyama: My submission –

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

May the hon. Member, resume her seat. That information is obviously not verifiable as of now and the hon. Member debating will, therefore, avoid discussing that matter.

 

May the hon. Member for Kafue continue with her debate.

 

Hon Government Members: Rumour mongering!

 

Mrs Chinyama: Madam Speaker, I will take your guidance.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

May the hon. Member, withdraw what she just stated and continue with her debate.

 

Mrs Chinyama: Madam Speaker, I am not sure of what I am supposed to withdraw. Is it the statement that the Government has not paid St. Eugene University?

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Yes, just that.

 

Mrs Chinyama: Alright, I will bring the evidence later, but for now, I withdraw the statement.

 

Laughter

 

Mrs Chinyama: Madam Speaker, I was just commending the Ministry of Health for having recruited all graduates from nursing schools. At the same time, I am hoping that with this additional resource that the health sector has, it will help to run health institutions on a twenty-four hour basis. At least one common complaint in my constituency in these rural health posts is the concern that clinics only operate from morning up to about 1700 or 1800 hours.

 

When the ministry was engaged concerning this matter in the past, the issue of human resources has been cited. So, I hope that this will help to improve the situation in these rural health centres because some health issues can get complicated, especially in the night and, therefore, there is need for manpower to be on hand to attend to any such eventualities.

 

Madam Speaker, I noted from the Budget Address that the Government has set aside some substantial amounts of money to finance different water supply and sanitation programmes and specifically the Kafue Bulk Water Supply and Sanitation Project. Kafue is one of the targeted beneficiaries. It is good that this project is still being supported, but maybe the new hon. Minister of Finance needs to take into account that one of the biggest cries by the people in different parts of Kafue is that they have never benefited from this particular project and yet the pipes pass through Kafue, taking the water elsewhere.

 

Madam Speaker, what is even sad is that the youths who worked on this project, up to now are still crying because they never got any gratuity after putting in so much effort to see that this particular project was successfully undertaken. I am even wondering what the additional funds are meant for. I hope that they are meant to work on the water reticulation system in Kafue because, as far as I am concerned, the water to Meanwood and all the other places in Lusaka is already being supplied. 

 

Madam Speaker, I also took note of the report that in 2019, under the Rural Water and Sanitation Programme, a total of 225 boreholes have so far been drilled. Under the Transforming Rural Livelihood Project, a total of 863 boreholes have been drilled in the Western Province. Now, the people have been talking about the critical shortage of water due to climate change and I think 225 boreholes countrywide is a small number. So, we hope that we will have good numbers and good implementation in this regard to ensure that the water resource is made available to our people.

 

Madam Speaker, under Pillar V, which talks about creating a conducive
governance environment, the Government announces various policy and regulatory reforms meant to improve our fiscus, so to say. Among those, are a debt management policy where they do rightly point out that prudent management of resources remains key. Clearly, there is an admission in here that we have been overtaken by debt and also that we have mismanaged it in the past. No wonder we went to austerity measures.

 

So, I was wondering now because in the constitutional dialogue, we are proposing the removal of this provision in the Constitution which is supposed to give this House powers to oversee debt contraction. So, I was seeing a contradiction there and a lack of commitment on the Government’s part.

 

Madam Speaker, on one hand, the Government is saying that it wants to manage debt and on the other hand, it is removing the tools that should help them to manage that particular debt by subjecting it to oversight of this country. In fact, I have been wondering why any one of us has not even challenged this Government for not operationalising that particular provision, which must compel that particular process to be subjected. I think one of these days, we will need to take the bull by the horns.

 

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

 

Mrs Chinyama: Madam Speaker, finally, I also want to comment, like others have done, on the issue of the allocation to public order and safety, especially when we compare it to health. Honestly, I thought this was a national scandal where for defence and public order and safety, the Government wants to spend about K10 billion and then for health, it wants to spend K9,366,591,584 and for education, K13,121,648,466, which is slightly over the allocation for public order and safety.

 

Honestly, what disorder is there that we should commit such a big amount of resources? Yes, to some extent, there is disorder, but we have just allowed this to happen and at the same time, we want to spend a lot of money to try and maintain that law and order. This is a situation that we are deliberately creating and we could have avoided it to save the little resources that we have.

 

Madam Speaker, in the first place, like others have said, we start by creating the by-elections. Next, we manufacture the violence. In the end, we want to put a lot of money aside to deal with this same public order and violence. Country men and women, where are our priorities? We should have been talking about education and health. I am even looking at this Budget and just like others have observed, we are crying that everything else could not happen due to climate change, but on climate change, the Government has reduced the budget.  In addition, there is recreation, culture and religion. I was thinking; who is doing this recreation? Why not even just take this recreation and culture budget and maybe put it to the budget for environmental protection, if we could not get this money elsewhere? I am saying so because I am not too sure about what other recreation is going on apart from a few people who are able to jog in the morning. I do not know what religious matters it is talking about. It would be nice to hear from our mother who is mandated to give us guidance as a nation, explain what this money is supposed to be used for in our Christian nation, if not to help the people in other sectors to maintain the peace to the extent that we preserve even the lives of our youths that we have now started killing during the electoral processes.

 

Madam Speaker, I want to leave my last one minute to just observe a moment of silence for one youth, Laurence Banda, who was brutally killed by political cadres of a known party in Kaoma. This was a needless death that happened. We are seated in this House and want to do everything to preserve ourselves in power when such things are happening. Of what benefit is this power if it is going to kill our youths and does not even give hope to our children?

 

Madam Speaker, I hope that we shall rise to the occasion and stop this because it is in our powers to do that. We cannot sit here complacently when someone’s life has been lost. His parents have lost a child just because we want to be in this House. For the sake of what or what does it profit us?

 

Prof. Luo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

 

Prof. Luo: Madam Speaker, as you know, this young lady rarely rises on points of order.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Laughter

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Which young lady, hon. Minister of Fisheries and Livestock?

 

Prof. Luo: Madam Speaker, the one who is speaking. The hon. Minister of Fisheries and Livestock is the young lady. As you can see, I look very young.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Indeed, you do, hon. Minister.

 

Prof. Luo: Madam Speaker, I am compelled to rise on a very serious point of order on the hon. Member of Parliament who is speaking on the Floor. All of us are aware of the Mapatizya formula. We are aware of the ...

 

Mr Lubinda: Namwala!

 

Prof. Luo: … Namwala formula and so on and so forth ...

 

Mr Lubinda: Sesheke!

 

Ms Lubezhi interjected.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Namwala.

 

Prof. Luo: … yet, the perpetrators of violence are forever standing in this House to apportion the blame on people who just get provoked. I was in Kaoma and it is not fair for the perpetrators of violence to start transferring what they did to other innocent parties. Is the hon. Member of Parliament for Kafue in order to stand in this hon. House with her head high and observe a minute of silence when they were the ones responsible for the shooting? Is she in order, Madam Speaker?

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I carefully listened to the hon. Member for Kafue. She was lamenting and said “we, as leaders,” and the “we” includes herself. She included herself. She said that we, as leaders cannot sit here while violence is taking place out there. To that extent, where she included herself and called upon all leaders to ensure that peace reigns in the country, she is in order.

 

Prof. Luo: She mentioned all the parties!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: She did not mention that.

 

Could the hon. Member of Parliament for Kafue continue with her debate.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mrs Chinyama: Madam Speaker, thank you. I will now take my minute of silence.

 

Mrs Chinyama stood in silence for one minute.

 

Mr Lubinda: Madness!

 

Interruptions

 

Hon. Government Members: Question!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Members on my right, the hon. Member for Kafue is on her feet and still has some seconds. Maybe she is refreshing her memory or she is, indeed, standing to observe a minute of silence, which she does not have.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

The hon. Member’s time expired.

 

Mr Jamba (Mwembezhi): Madam Speaker, thank you for according me a chance to add a few words on the Budget Speech presented to this House by –

 

Mr Livune: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

 

Mr Livune: Madam Speaker, I stand before this House as a sad person. Is the hon. Minister of Religious Affairs and National Guidance in order to sit there and watch hon. Members on your right mock the person who took a minute of silence for a death that was caused as a result of politicking in Kaoma? Senior hon. Ministers on your right mocked the hon. Member and made noise. I am sure that even the country listened to the noise that they were making without regard for the death that has been recorded in Kaoma. Senior hon. Ministers and hon. Members of Parliament must be remorseful because somebody’s child died. All of us must be ashamed and feel sorry for that incidence. Is the hon. Minister in order to sit there without rebuking her fellow hon. Ministers who made the moment of silence a mockery?

 

Madam, I seek your ruling.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

The hon. Minister of Religious Affairs and National Guidance is in order because I observed her and she was listening to the debate. In fact, she did so in total silence. To that extent, the hon. Minister is in order.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Could the hon. Member for Mwembezhi continue with his debate. I was interrupted by that point of order, I was saying that I want to add my voice to the Budget Speech delivered by the hon. Minister of Finance. Firstly, I want to say something about the retention of the Value Added Tax (VAT) in the 2020 Budget, which everybody has been congratulating the hon. Minister for. In as much as the Government has maintained VAT and refused to implement the Sales Tax, it is important to put the record straight in this Parliament and the nation.

 

Madam Speaker, when people come here, they should know that this is an hon. House. We as a country cannot have people who say that the Sales Tax was diligently discussed in three sittings of the Cabinet meeting and concluded that it was a good plan but changed their minds later. For the information of the hon. Minister of Finance, I personally asked his predecessor whether she did a diligent study before she introduced the Sales Tax. She said that this was a perfect project and money was spent for officers to go around the country to explain this tax to the people. Now, the new hon. Minister came and told us that the Government has abandoned the issue of the Sales Tax. It must be put on record that we do not want to have policy inconsistencies where some people’s credentials end up being dented. For instance, it seems like the former hon. Minister of Finance did not do a good job when in actual fact, the introduction of the Sales Tax was a Cabinet decision.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank the Government for maintaining VAT, but in future, due diligence must be done on issues before people’s names are brought into disrepute and they look as though they did not do the work yet they did. The hon. Members of the Government came here collectively.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Jamba: No. We are governing together my friend, whether we are in the Opposition or Independent. I am in the Government, and I am governing. I am telling my hon. Colleagues on the right without any malice that it is important to inform this House on whatever they agree on as a Cabinet. When they shifted the goal posts, it looked like it is only one of them who came here to drive the introduction of the Sales Tax while the others were not part of it. Governance is a collective responsibility. Why did it pursue the Sales Tax for the whole year and then let it go as the year is about to close? That was not good.

 

Madam Speaker, today, I will dwell on just a few issues. Regarding the issue of debt, if we were not in Parliament, I was going to quote the Bible. However, quoting from the Bible is not allowed in this Parliament. It is written in Proverbs Chapter 22 verse 7, …

 

Laughter

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Member for Mwembezhi, debate and do not preach. Stay away from quoting the Bible, you know it is not allowed.

 

Mr Jamba: That is why I said it is not allowed to quote from the Bible. In this book of Proverbs 22 verse 7 …

 

Laughter

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Jamba: In the book which we use for swearing, I do not know what book it is, …

 

Laughter

Mr Jamba: … it is written that the rich rule over the poor and the borrowers become slaves to the lenders. When the hon. Minister goes to meet his fellow ministers of finance elsewhere, his head is not held high because he is a borrower. If you are a lender, you stand tall because you are not a borrower.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Jamba: Let me talk about the story of people justifying borrowing. Borrowing is an art. Let me tell you very smoothly and easy; I grew up in a mining area and I was also a miner.

 

Interruptions

 

Hon. Members: Where!

 

Mr Jamba: Mining.

 

Hon. Government Members: Where!

 

Mr Jamba: Going underground.

 

Hon. Members: Where!

 

Mr Jamba: Nampundwe Mine.

 

Interruptions

 

Hon. Members: Ah!

 

Mr Jamba: Listen to me, hon. Minister!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Wait for him to tell you where.

 

Mr Jamba: Let me tell you. In that company where I worked as a miner, I used to get paid every month end. However, I would be broke on the second day after getting paid, and I would go and borrow money. The tendency of borrowing money by people in mining areas has now escalated to a national level.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Siwanzi interjected.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Jamba: Iwe wikalefye.

 

Mr Jamba: So, hon. Minister of Finance, borrowing –

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Business was suspended from 1640 hours until 1700 hours.

 

[MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

 

Mr Jamba: Madam Speaker, as I said before business was suspended, I will dwell on the issue of the national debt and try to compare the debt with priorities as pointed out by the hon. Minister of Finance. I was just trying to say that if people continue telling the hon. Minister of Finance to continue borrowing, we should+ just know that those people are taking us into slavery. We will become slaves of a certain master. That is why at some point one will fail to make decisions because if he/she is a borrower and there is a master, how does he/she make decisions? Someone is going to dictate how we will run this country. Therefore, we want to see a reduction in borrowing.

 

Madam Speaker, lest the hon. Minister has forgotten, we should remember that this country was indebted so much at some point that it was referred to as a Highly Indebted Poor Country (HIPC). It was speculated that the money which we were paying to service the debt during HIPC was able to run the Government and facilitate projects. That debt was forgiven. After that debt was forgiven, if you remember, we contracted three Eurobonds. One bond was about US$750 million, while the other one was about US$1.2 billion. As we are trying to allow the Government to borrow some more, it is important for us as leaders in this House to reflect on this issue. People are saying that the money was used for the construction of roads. Yes, the Government has constructed the roads. However, is it saying that if we brought in an independent valuator to evaluate the roads, is he/she going to say yes, the Eurobonds were used to construct roads? Is your account going to balance?

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Jamba: Madam Speaker, before we start borrowing, we should ask ourselves where the money is sitting. If this money is sitting on the roads, we must be able to establish the cost of each road so that even as we support you to borrow, we should know that you are putting the borrowed money into intended projects.

 

Let me give the hon. Minister of Finance an example without malice. Do you know that people in this country say that you bought fire tenders at US$42 million? If you were pragmatic in quenching the fire so that people stop saying that the price of fire tenders was exaggerated, a fire tender has got a chassis number, year of make and manufacturer. We do not have a company that manufactures Scania trucks in Zambia, but somewhere in the Scandinavian countries. If you went there and asked what was the cost of the Scania trucks in 2012 was, they are going to give you the exact amount of money spent on those fire tenders so that people can see the value of their money. If the money used to buy the fire tenders was less, where is the money that remained? Who was paid? Was it a middleman? So these are the questions which people are asking. When you ask people to support you to borrow more money, explain the little details that they want to know.

 

Madam Speaker, let me go through what the hon. Minister of Finance is trying to propose. He is proposing to use K21,090,794,856 to service the debt.

 

Mr L. N. Tembo: Is that an example?

 

Mr Jamba: No, it is not an example.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Jamba: This is what the hon. Minister of Finance is proposing to use in servicing the debt. He is proposing K21,090,794,856 for servicing the debt. However, the hon. Minister of Finance has gone ahead to say that he wants to contract a debt of K30.6 billion. I do not know whether that is correct or not. He wants to contract that debt. When you look at the variables – I am not an accountant, please help me, – you will see that the money which you are trying to pay during the course of the year is actually less than the money you want to contract as debt.

 

Madam Speaker, let me put it this way in very simple mathematics. I owe Mr John K2,000, then I want to go and borrow from Mr Peter K5,000. Even if I pay Mr John his K2,000, my debt is still escalating. So, the hon. Minister should explain when he is going to stop this idea of borrowing so that when we start a project, we should pay for it using our own money and not contracting debts.

 

Let me give the hon. Minister an idea on the priorities he has made. He has allocated funds for the building of the multi-million airport in Ndola. Is he surely saying that the airport is a priority to Zambians? If it is a priority as he says, when are we as a country going to start reaping the benefits of this airport and start paying our debts? The hon. Minister should have invested that money in projects which can bring us money as a country instead of investing it in an airport. Let me provide an example to the hon. Minister using simple mathematics, even though I have never studied economics. If us as a country enhance dairy animals from New Zealand or somewhere else to boost dairy farming, I can assure him that within two years, we can build that airport in Ndola without borrowing money. We cannot generate profit out of borrowed money; we will always be a slave to the lenders. The idea is to invest money in areas where it can generate more money.

 

Mr Kapalasa: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Chibanda: Question!

 

Mr Jamba: Madam Speaker, if the hon. Minister of Finance came to Nampundwe or Mwembezhi Constituency and told the people that he was going to borrow money to build an airport in Ndola and Lusaka, they would tell him that the airports are a misplaced priority and that they also need a piece of the cake. Why does the hon. Minister not invest the money in building a road from Mwembezhi to Nampundwe so that farmers can benefit as this road is an economic road? If that road is tarred, Nampundwe Mine which is run by Konkola Copper Mine (KCM) which produces pyrite and Universal Mining and Chemical Industries Limited which produces iron will generate more money. Kafue Sugar Plantation and Shanta Sugar Estate Limited will also generate more money. You are using money like people who grew up borrowing and spending money. However, the hon. Minister is a game changer. He should allocate money to finish the airport in Lusaka and then concentrate on other things. We cannot continue borrowing.

 

 

 

Mrs Fundanga: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

 

Mrs Fundanga: Madam, I have never stood in this House to rise on a point of order. I think this is the first time I am raising a point of order because it is compelling. The reason I am raising this point of order is that we should not be reduced to domestic affairs. When a country wants to reform or move forward, it needs to invest in infrastructure. What is wrong with having the airport in Ndola?

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

What is the point of order?

 

Mrs Fundanga: Madam Speaker, is the hon. Member for Mwembezhi in order to tell us that we are wasting money, or we are not doing anything by refurbishing the airport in Ndola? The Copperbelt is our commercial hub. Does he have the right to tell us that we should look at Mwembezhi rather than the Copperbelt? I arrest my case.

 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear! Quality!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Since the question is whether or not he has the right, the response is that he does have the right to debate in the manner he is debating.

 

May the hon. Member for Mwembezhi continue, please.

 

Mr Jamba: Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Madam, if there is any tree or river called Mwembezhi, it is me here. I will talk about Mwembezhi if it has been left out in the Budget Speech and the President’s Speech. Both the hon. Minister of Finance and the President said that no one will be left behind. If that is the case, why does Mwembezhi not have a tarred road? There is no tarred road in Mwembezhi, therefore, I am not out of order to speak this way. People must be responsible. We do not have any hospital in Mwembezhi.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

I have already ruled over that. I already said that you have the right. Continue with your debate.

 

Mr Jamba: Madam Speaker, I am saying that the airport in Ndola is very important. However, it is not a priority. It is like a person who sleeps on the floor in his house but decides to buy a television or shoes instead of a bed. Are the shoes or the television important? It would be better to buy a bed because it is a priority. I am simply saying that we need to invest in something that is going to stimulate the economy. I even gave an example of investing in dairy animals. Give them to the farmers to boost dairy farming. That way, the economy is going to be stimulated.

 

Madam Speaker, the allocation in the Budget for public order has been increased. In fact, it has been doubled. In 2019, it was K2,865,505,045 and in 2020, it is K4,042,702,155. The people in Mwembezhi have been affected by climate change, they did not grow anything because of drought and therefore, they have no food to eat. The farming season has started, and the hon. Minister of Agriculture is asking farmers to pay K400 towards the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP). So, people have to decide whether to pay this amount to FISP or buy a bag of mealie meal. If the hon. Minister had maintained the money allocated to public order, people in the fifty-three districts who were hit hard by climate change would not have to pay the K400 each as there would be money to help the farmers by giving them free fertiliser so that next year, they are able to stand on their own two feet.

 

Ms Mulenga: Ikalapa panshi naiwe!

 

Mr Jamba: People are suffering in Mwembezhi, they do not have food, but now, the Government wants them to pay K400 each to access farming inputs. This is like asking for water from someone who is in a desert. The Government should look at the people and see how they are suffering.

 

Madam, the new hon. Minister of Finance has come here as a game changer. He is here to change the whole game. It should not be business as usual. If he wants us to support and approve this Budget, he must also support the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) for this year. We must see the CDF for this year before we vote for this Budget.

 

Mr Kapalasa: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Jamba: Let us have the CDF because it is law. When we are given the CDF for 2019, we can go an implement projects in our constituencies. It is important that the CDF reflects in our accounts before we go into 2020.

 

Madam Speaker, I am simply saying that there are good projects which the hon. Minister has allocated funds to. However, they are not a priority. He should not listen to people who want to praise him saying “mwebashiluba, mwebekala kumulu.” The only one “ushaluba ni Lesa.”

 

Hon. PF Members: Question!

 

Mr Jamba: Madam Speaker, there are people who are full of praises. They like to praise others by saying “you who has never erred, you are the righteous one, you are the all wise.” If the hon. Minister of Finance hears such people praising him, he should know that they are a danger to him. He should instead listen to the voice of reason. He should look at this Budget again and see how he can help finance ...

 

Ms Mulenga interjected.

 

Mr Jamba: ... projects in Mwembezhi. If anything –

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Members directly opposite me, specifically the hon. Minister of Community Development and Social Welfare and the hon. Member behind, please refrain from disturbing the hon. Member debating.

 

You may continue, hon. Member for Mwembezhi.

 

Mr Jamba: Madam Speaker, lastly, some Eurobonds are going to be due in 2022. Therefore, it is now time to start preparing for that. As the hon. Minister is contracting more debt, he should start preparing to pay for the debts we already contracted so that we do not have many problems. We are already in deep water. 

 

So, we now need to start reflecting a bit of money which we are saving in the Budget. Otherwise, with the anticipated climate change, we will be hit so much, such that we will not have any food in the country because the money will be going towards the construction of the airport. However, people will start asking; bushe abantu balalya airport? Nibanga abaninapo indeke? How many people from Mwembezhi have ever board a plane? They do not even know it.

 

Madam, three quarters of people from the Copperbelt do not even know it. Instead, they use the Euro-Africa Bus Services to come to Lusaka. If you asked how many people have been on a plane, apart from a certain group of people, you would find that it is none. Had it not been for Parliament, I was going to use the word ‘thief’. Now, since this is Parliament, I will not use the word ‘thief.’ There are people who have stolen and they are flying all over in planes. They are the ones who are saying that we should build a new airport. We should not do that. Some of us need roads in Mwembezhi rather than the construction of a new airport.

 

Madam Speaker, I would like to urge the hon. Minister of Housing and Infrastructure Development to build roads in Mwembezhi so that our people can also feel that they are part and parcel of this Government in Zambia.

 

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Nakacinda (Nominated): Madam Speaker, I would like to thank you for the opportunity given to me to add a voice to this debate.

 

Madam Speaker, after carefully going through and studying the Budget Speech presented by the hon. Minister of Finance to this House, I would like to state from the outset that the Budget which was tabled before this House by the hon. Minister of Finance is very pragmatic. Therefore, I must state that it has no equal because I take note that there was an attempt by one political outfit to try and present what they called an alternative budget.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Hammer!

 

Mr Nakacinda: Madam, after studying what the hon. Minister of Finance presented before this House and also succumbing to the temptation of the alternative budget, unfortunately, that alternative budget does not even deserve one to spend their breath on because there is nothing there. For a long time, the Zambian people have been asking opposition political parties to present alternative programmes and policies which they feel, if implemented, they should be able to advance moving forward to provide checks and balances.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

 Mr Nakacinda: The only disappointing thing is that the leader of the political outfit has been posturing for a long time as an economic manager. So, the expectations were very high, especially that for the first time we were going to have an alternative budget emanating from a political outfit whose leader has presented himself to the Zambian people as an economic manager. Actually, in my view, maybe if he changes that posture and calls himself the right term, which is ‘a comic manager’.

 

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Nakacinda: It would fit the description of what is contained in the so-called alternative budget.

 

 Hon. Government Members: Hammer!

 

 Mr Nakacinda: Madam Speaker, as it has been said before, when His Excellency the President came to address the nation through this House, he exhibited a high level of magnanimity in presenting a very realistic and honest picture of the performance of our economy to the House. Like it was said yesterday by the hon. Member for Chilubi, it is important for us to start admitting the fact that there could be challenges, which is not a weakness, but actually, a strength.

 

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Nakacinda: Further, that is a rare trait or virtue, especially among African leaders. Usually, leaders are bent on trying to present ourselves as good people managing a good situation even when things may not be rosy. To that effect, I would like to express myself to the hon. Minister that I am impressed that in response to what His Excellency the President presented to this House, he has also been courageous enough to take steps to respond to the concerns.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Nakacinda: Madam Speaker, I am impressed because the President emphasised on the need to listen to the concerns of the stakeholders and the Zambian in general, on economic matters. For instance, the hon. Minister has listened to the needs of the people to maintain the Value Added Tax (VAT), as it has already been debated, as opposed to change the Sales Tax regime, especially that it has not been fully embraced by the Zambian people and different stakeholders. However, we are hoping that the maintenance of VAT will come with a vigorous drive to improve the management of it, as indicated in the Budget Speech.

 

Madam, in addition, to demonstrate that this is a listening Government, there is more proof to that effect. The Zambian people have also been expressing concern at the lack of lubrication of the economy because of the domestic debt. The outcry has landed on very good ears because the hon. Minister of Finance has said it in his Budget Speech that he is increasing the allocation towards the dismantling of the domestic debt from K437 million to K2,278,733,732. I suppose that is a plus.

 

Madam Speaker, I hope that we will be able to generate necessary resources to enable us have the domestic debt dismantled because that is the only thing which will cause the Zambian people to have more money in their pockets. Without having those who have provided a service and those who have supplied to either the Government and otherwise being paid, we will not realise a positive cascading effect to development. So, thumbs up for the increase to K2,278,733,732 for dismantling arrears which the hon. Minister has indicated in the Budget.

 

Madam, the third issue which the President raised is the narrow fiscal space for service delivery, which I want to believe that he has also ably answered. He did indicate to this House that the country has an unimpressive expenditure structure with 50.1 per cent going towards wages. Of course, the hon. Minister has indicated in his Budget Speech that this issue will be dealt with.  So, I want to believe that he also realise that the 50.1 per cent will not go directly to pay wages or allowances. It could also be a sum total of other allowances such as workshops and other things which are done within the Government establishment, which will gobble the 50.1 per cent.

 

Madam, with the pronouncement of austerity measures, the hon. Minister of Finance must also be one of those who are at the centre to implement if not micro-manage the austerity measures to make sure that things which are unnecessary are gotten rid off. Almost every ministry and department has a boardroom and provinces also have structures. So, going by the infrastructure drive which has been undertaken, there are facilities within the Government arrangement where people can meet, deliberate and come up with resolutions. Therefore, if we minimised some of the excesses that have been undertaken and they are causing the 50.1 per cent to continue being maintained, we could be able to unlock the resources which can be allocated to service delivery, which is seating at 9.9 per cent because of the 40 per cent which is going towards debt servicing.

 

Madam Speaker, if I am wearing the same lenses as the hon. Minister, that is, in looking at the Budget, and I am getting what he is trying to do, I want to believe that there are some game changers within what he pronounced before this House. On page 14 of the Budget Speech, there are two points that I have picked out, which will become the anchors of my debate today. For example, on expenditure, on page 13, he said that the measures that he is going to take include the use of the balance sheet financing model such as Public Private Partnerships (PPPs). On debt management, he has talked about refinancing existing loans.

 

Madam Speaker, this is a game changer. Before I discuss in detail, I want to say that the hon. Minister has come at a time when the Zambian people are yearning for a radical shift in addressing economic challenges. However, he has also come with a positive aura of perception. Having been appointed from a professional body, which is our central bank, he has come here without the influence of political rhetoric, either for or against those who advance political rhetoric just to oppose. The hon. Minister will rise above that and is able to take steps anchored on economic fundamentals that will drive the Zambian economy forward. He has to take advantage of that perception to make bold decisions and steps to cure that vicious expenditure cycle.

 

Madam Speaker, in addressing the issue of refinancing existing loans, I heard the hon. Member of Parliament for Mwembezhi lamenting about the airport project in Ndola. We need to give more information. If I am wearing the same spectacles like the hon. Minister is wearing, not the physical ones, but the ones that are able to interpret economic issues, I see an opportunity in that project. It is an opportunity because Zambia is at the centre of the Southern African Development Community (SADC) region. Unfortunately, all of us have been gravitating towards South Africa before we can go to any part of the world. We can reverse that situation and make Zambia become the true hub of the SADC region and the Great Lakes region, if we manage that aspect of the economy properly. I want to propose that the proposal for the PPPs is key for projects like that one. If you can consider the fact that it is sitting on your books and is slightly over K2.2 billion, you can approach those who are interested and who are authorities in the air transport industry. They can partner with the Government and be able to run the facility. The Government would have already contracted a debt, but it needs to get a partner. That will help the Government through the equity that the partner would bring to get that K2 billion that is sitting on the hon. Minister’s balance sheet and making it look ugly. When other co-operating partners whom we would want to approach and talk to, look at the balance sheet and it does not look impressive to them and they begin to dance around, ignore them and make bold steps. Begin to utilise projects like that one and get them into PPPs in order for you to get the equity which will clean up the balance sheet. We hope that the hon. Minister can extend that boldly to the Kenneth Kaunda International Airport (KKIA), which is almost complete and the value of that is about US$300 million. If you can get into a PPP on that one and choose, I can suggest, off-the-cuff, for example, Emirates Airline which is distributing across the globe. The airline is flying to all the countries in the world. If the Zambian Government is able to cut a good deal, it is a guarantee that by them partnering with it, is a possibility that it will clean up the balance sheet, but also be able to improve the distribution for the people who are travelling all over the world through Lusaka.

 

Madam Speaker, this also feeds into the idea which the Government has been indicating that there is an airline which is coming very soon. Before becoming over ambitious and wanting the airline to go to Europe and other places, we should concentrate on getting passengers across the SADC region. I am just being as basic as I can. You can try and target passengers from the region to feed into the one that is going to be partner with KKIA to feed to the world.

 

For instance, regarding the xenophobic issues happening in South Africa, people are beginning to have some touchy and rough feelings around that destination. Let us be smart and take advantage of that situation and make Zambia a hub. However, in so doing, you would also be cleaning up our balance sheet. If you deal with that you can further extend, for example, to the energy sector. You would also apply the PPP model with somebody who will deal with equity, but run that aspect efficiently in the Kafue Gorge Lower, which is also sitting on the hon. Minister’s books in excess of US$2 billion, to make sure that the load shedding that we are faced with is a thing of the past. If you pick out three or four projects, and if my mathematics is right, you are sitting on a relief of over $5 billion.

 

Madam Speaker, if that is achieved, the International Monetary Fund (IMF) will start running to this nation. The IMF would want to talk to us and be part of the success story. I see that there are game changers if only they can take bold steps. The hon. Minister should not be cheated –

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Member, withdraw the word ‘cheated’.

 

Mr Nakacinda: Madam Speaker, I withdraw that word and replace it with ‘misled’ or ‘misinformed’.

 

Madam, there are some people who stand on an ant hill and say that if we get into PPPs, then we are selling the Government’s property and, therefore, going towards privatisation. The perception before was that privatisation gave individuals advantage. Those who got pecuniary advantage from the trust they were given by the Zambian people are known. We know that they are rich at an individual level. However, we want to trust that the hon. Minister will do it better through PPPs to be able to advance what I am talking about, in terms of having the Government’s balance sheet cleaned up and get to a level where you can reach out to others and partner with them in order for this nation to move forward.

 

Madam Speaker, let me also identify, and I am tempted to do so because the hon. Minister of Housing and Infrastructure Development is in front of me. There are roads which do not need the Government to borrow or to use the power of its purse. For example, there is the Kasempa/Kaoma Road. The trucks are already using it because it is becoming more economical for those that carry copper and other things. These trucks pass through Kaoma as they attempt to go to Walvis Bay. Why do we not take advantage of that traffic and get into a PPP so that we can get the roads constructed without the Government spending any money? This will help the Government to generate income. There are projects like that. Another example is the Chirundu/Chiawa Road. There is a lot of traffic there and we can use the PPP model as a way of constructing that road and not spend any money. Therefore, we will have good roads that would be running. I think if the alternative government had such suggestions, we could have paid attention. However, we just have an alternative government from one political outfit to lament, which was a bit of a challenge.

 

Mr Livune: Iwe! stop misbehaving!

 

Mr Nakacinda: Madam Speaker, I want to say that the hon. Minister of Finance has an opportunity, not only to be a game changer, but also through the Budget Speech which he has presented, to actually turn things around. When the Zambian people more money in their pockets, you will be working pretty well and the ruling party will not be threatened about 2021 because the only challenge that it has to solve is the economy. Therefore, the key to solving that political challenge is yourself. You need to gather courage, be bold and make the right decisions and move the country forward, particularly in the economic sector.

 

I thank you, Madam.       

 

The Minister for Northern Province (Mr Bwalya): Madam Speaker, let me pick it up from where the hon. Member who was on the Floor ended. The game changer is sorting out the economy and once the economy is sorted out, and definitely, even those pretending to present the alternative budget will have no opportunity whatsoever to dismiss the Budget.

 

Madam, the Budget Speech booklet has pictures which include picture of His Excellency, the President, Dr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, launching the 7NDP, a green colour representing agriculture, a picture of water depicting hydropower, and lastly, there is a picture depicting the infrastructure development which is going on. On the flip side of the booklet, there are pictures representing tourism, entertainment, roads, and livestock. There is a picture of the Nitrogen Chemicals of Zambia (NCZ) showing the promotion of agriculture. There is also a picture of the Katuba toll gate depicting what the Government intends to do in terms of generating local revenue to support the 2020 Budget.

 

Madam Speaker, with that said, you will agree with me that the Patriotic Front (PF) Government has tried as much as possible to give hope to the people of Zambia. I must say that a lot of hope was given to the people of the Northern Province whom His Excellency the President has given me the privilege to preside over. This Budget gives hope in the sense that if you look at page 8 and paragraph 53, the hon. Minister of Finance talked about energy in terms of upgrading a number of hydropower stations. Currently, it is well known that the country is facing a power deficit that has come about as a result of climate change which is not manmade but a natural phenomenon. Climate change led to insufficient rainfall which led to low levels of water for hydropower stations at Kariba Dam, Itezhi-tezhi, the Kafue Gorge Lower and many others. It is because of low water levels that we have the power deficit which has led to load shedding

 

Madam, on page 8, the hon.  Minister of Finance talked about various hydropower stations in the country. He said: 

 

“The Bangweulu and Ngonye Solar Power plants generating a combined total of 90 megawatts have been completed and are operational. Further, the construction of the 750 megawatts Kafue Gorge Lower Hydropower Station Project and upgrading of Lusiwasi Upper Hydropower Station to 15 megawatts are expected to be completed in 2020.”

 

Madam, what is important and interesting to the people of the Northern Province is the following quote:

 

“The upgrading of Chishimba Falls Power Station from 6 megawatts to 15 megawatts will commence in 2020.”

 

Madam, here lies the hope for the Northern Province. The Government is making efforts to move away from having power station in the Southern Province where most power stations are located. The northern region has a lot of water; it has been blessed with rainfall, at least up to now.

 

Madam Speaker, on page 10, the hon. Minister of Finance talked about social protection.  I am glad that he has allocated quite a lot of money to the Social Cash Transfer in the Ministry of Community Development and Social Welfare. There has been a crusade and propaganda hatched by my hon. Colleagues in the Opposition regarding the Social Cash Transfer. They have gone out to tell the people that the Government has stopped giving out money under the Social Cash Transfer scheme. I am happy that the 2020 Budget has allocated money to this programme, which is a clear indication that untrue information will now be put to rest. The Social Cash Transfer programme will continue in 2020 because His Excellency the President, has put emphasis on social protection so that poverty can be reduced to support the well-being of the people in the country.

 

Madam, the other aspect that interests me and the people of the Northern Province is on page 15, and that is the Census of Population and Housing. We all know that the last census took place in 2010. Since then, time has passed and many things have changed. Many people have obviously been born, and because of population increase, delivery of services has been put under pressure. For as long as there is no correct information on how many people we are presiding over, it will be very difficult to plan. So, this census that will take place in 2020 will provide credible statistics that will help the Government to plan and also help in service delivery to the people of Zambia. The census will not only provide population statistics but data regarding infrastructure and growth in the economy.

 

Madam, the hon. Minister of Finance also needs to rebase our Gross Domestic Product (GDP). The Government should take advantage of the Census of Population and Housing to relook at how our GDP is calculated. Over time, our infrastructure and asset base have increased, therefore, we should get better statistics and look at how we calculate our GDP.

 

Madam Speaker, the revenue side of our Budget is usually not debated. Once we begin debating the revenue side of the Budget, a lot of emotions emerge because people do not want to participate in raising revenue. There are so many issues surrounding taxes and non-tax revenues. The revenue side of the Budget needs to be given the seriousness it deserves. Unless the country raises enough revenue to support itself, it will always depend on borrowing. Unless we do a lot of work in raising domestic revenue to a level where we can finance our activities, it will be difficult for us to stop borrowing. If we want to borrow as a country, we need to come together and agree that every one of us must contribute towards the running of the Government. Every Zambian must stand up and ask where his tax contributions are going.

 

S

 

Gone are the days when everything was free. I recall that during the United National Independence Party (UNIP) Government, miners used to get nappies free of charge whenever they had newly born babies. Those days are gone and, therefore, each one of us must contribute towards the operations of the Government. In order to protect our revenue, the hon. Minister of Finance needs to close all the loopholes; all revenue leakages should be closed. We need to net out as much revenue as possible in order to construct roads in areas like the Northern Province and give our people the much needed high quality health services which they deserve.

 

Madam Speaker, regarding the construction of roads, unfortunately, this Government has become a victim of its own success. This Government embarked on the ambitious Link Zambia 8,000 Kilometre Road Project and started constructing roads in this country. Everybody did not know that we could do it. It is like the independence of Zambia came after the 2011 elections when the Patriotic Front (PF) took over the reign of power. The roads we have constructed in various areas have put us in many problems because now, everywhere, people have realised that it is possible to construct quality roads. That is why the Zambian people are now saying that they want roads. Even those who previously sang the song, “are we going to eat roads?” want roads in their areas. The House will recall that the Opposition used to say, “are we going to eat roads?” Today, the Kafue/Mazabuka Road is being rehabilitated.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Hon. UPND Members: Question!

 

Mr Bwalya: Madam Speaker, everyday on the Floor of this House, during the debate of the 2019 Budget, there used to be cries that that the Kafue/Turnpike/Mazabuka Road was in a deplorable state. Today, no one on the left is talking about it. They are all quiet. Why is it so? It is because the PF Government has worked on that road, and it is beautiful.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Bwalya:  Madam Speaker, it is always important in life to appreciate and say “thank you” when something is done for you. There is a saying in Bemba which says, “Ushitasha, mwana wa ndoshi.” In fact, it was changed to “Ushitasha, endoshi ine.” This means that if one does not say “thank very much” he/she may be a child of a witch, or he/she is indeed a witch himself/herself.” The roads have been funded using the Budgets that the PF Government has been producing, and they have benefited the Zambian people.

 

Mr Livune: Question!

 

Mr Bwalya: Truly speaking, the people using the roads in literal translation can be said to be “eating the roads.” This means that people are able to transport their goods on these beautiful and well-constructed roads. People have reduced their travelling time, cut costs, and their vehicles are in good shape because of the good roads. I know that the hon. Minister of Finance has made provisions in this Budget towards road infrastructure and infrastructure in general. When I am going to my province, I pass through the Central Province, the Copperbelt Province and Luapula Province and eventually, I get to the Northern Province. I can assure the hon. Members that there are many roads being constructed in Ndola, Kitwe and Mufulira. The Pedicle Road leading into Luapula Province and the Northern Province is also being constructed. This has made traveling very easy. The PF Government has paid attention not only to the travelling public but to the well-being of the people generally. 

 

Madam Speaker, let me talk about the issue of dismantling arrears. I urge the hon. Minister of Finance to pay attention to this venture and ensure that he indeed, dismantles the domestic arrears. The pensioners need their money and they needed it like yesterday. This money will contribute towards injecting liquidity in the economy. If we do not pay the local contractors, suppliers and pensioners, we are only shooting ourselves in the foot because it is these same people who hold voter’s cards who are going to vote for us.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Bwalya: I am glad that the National Budget has included that component. Only this Government has prioritised pensioners, local suppliers and local contractors in this country.

 

Mr Livune: Question!

 

Mr Bwalya: Madam Speaker, paying off the local contractors will have a multiplier effect because these local contractors employ many Zambians. If we prioritise paying them on a regular basis, not only will they speed up the construction of our projects but they will also contribute towards the enhancement of various families who depend on the salaries of the people local contractors employ. This is what a caring Government can do. His Excellency, the President, Dr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, directed that the Government must pay every Zambians it owes money so that people have a meaningful life.

 

Madam Speaker, with these few remarks, on behalf of the people of the Northern Province, I support this progressive Budget and implore on all of us to support this Budget so that we can continue delivering quality services to the Zambian people.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwamba (Lubansenshi): Madam Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity given to me to debate. First of all, I want to pay glowing tribute to the hon. Minister of Finance, Dr Ng’andu Bwalya, for coming up with this progressive Budget.

 

Madam Speaker, I am a historian, and because of that, I do not like forgetting the past. The past reminds me of a lot of things and I build on it. In 2008, the PF Government was not there. When a person looks at the Gross Domestic Product (GDP) in 2008, he will realise that it was 10 per cent. Progressively, in 2018, the GDP of this country went down to about 3 per cent. From this little analysis, I am able to understand that the economy of this country has been going down. Since the GDP had been going down, this country needed a Government that would sit down and think about how it could raise the GDP.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Ndalamei: The UPND!

 

Mr Mwamba: No! I am not talking about the UPND but the PF Government under the leadership of President Edgar Chagwa Lungu.

 

When you look at this Budget, it is trying to address gaps which were created a long time ago and I will take you to pages where it is showing that. With this history, I also want to argue the point that our hon. Colleagues on your left referred to when they debated. They used the phrase, “the Patriotic Front (PF) Government has failed.”

 

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwamba: They used this phrase repeatedly. They said that the PF Government is corrupt.

 

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwamba: They have said many evil things against this Government.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Evil?

 

Mr Mwamba: Little do they know that –

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Withdraw the word ‘evil.’

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mwamba: I withdraw the word ‘evil’ and replace it with ‘ungodly’ or ‘unblessed,’ words which they are using.

 

Madam Speaker, I want to recount some more history. When you look at the history of the economy of this world, you will find out that it is not only this country which is affected. Large economies like the United States of America (USA) are also experiencing the shocks of the economic downturn. China, also a big economy, is equally experiencing shocks of the economic downturn.

 

This is not all, but when we look at the causes of this downturn, we realise that when there is a trade conflict between China and the USA, we get affected. How? It affects us because the money that we use, the United States Dollar, actually comes from America or is pegged against that money. So, when there is trouble in trade between China and America, it affects us as well.

 

Madam Speaker, I also want to say that when we produce copper, we do not have a market for it here. This is the only item that we normally depend on and that gives us enough foreign exchange earnings. The market that we have is in Europe. So, we export it to Europe and the price of our copper is determined there. We do not have a say on how much the copper should cost. This is determined at the London Metal Exchange (LME). Foreigners determine the price for what we take there and that is what we get. Meanwhile, here at home, we do not have anything that supplements this money which we get from the sales of copper. Hence, when you look at this document, it is trying to tell us to diversify the economy so that we can be able to fill up the gaps we are seeing today because of dependence on copper. This is one reason.

 

Madam Speaker, the other thing is that what is happening in the Middle East has an effect on the economy of Zambia. We get oil from there, and so, when there is disturbance or turbulence in that region, we also get affected, consequently. If production of oil in the Middle East slows down, we are equally affected because the prices go up. When the prices go up, we have no alternative because we do not have oil fields and entirely rely on oil from there. When the oil comes to Zambia, it comes at a price which has been determined by the people in the Middle East. So, what we should do is to use what we have. The same money that we have is what we use to buy oil.

 

Madam Speaker, this Government targets its monies on priorities and all of us know this. We target our money on our priorities. This Budget will facilitate for workers in the country to be paid. It is in this Budget where a lot of money is going to the people. This means that the Government is investing in the people of Zambia, the workers who are productive and are giving us benefits. Therefore, if the Government has failed, how would it be in a position to ensure that it manages the priorities of its people? Mind you, workers in this country are over 100,000, but the Government manages to pay them. I do not know where our hon. Colleagues are finding the failure.

 

Madam Speaker, on the issue of water and sanitation, this Government and indeed the Budget, places priority on this area because it is life for the people of Zambia. If you run around the country, you will find that there are a lot of boreholes which have been sunk in my constituency in Lubansenshi. The Government is sinking boreholes in all constituencies of our hon. Members of Parliament who are here. I do not have the numbers, but all of us are certainly aware that these things are happening. These are the priorities where these monies are going.

 

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwamba: I am not seeing the failure and this is why I am going step by step so that perhaps those who are saying that the Government has failed can tell me how.

 

Madam Speaker, let me talk about agriculture. If you follow where I started this debate, I mentioned about this nation heavily relying on copper. However, this Budget has prioritised agriculture and money has been allocated towards the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP), so that the poor farmers in the villages are given fertiliser. This way, they can cultivate, sell their products and raise their standard of living. People are now collecting fertiliser. This is a Government which the people on your left hand are saying has failed, and yet it is able to give the people of Zambia –

 

Hon. Member: Kazungula as well!

 

Mr Mwamba: Kazungula as well. People anywhere are getting fertiliser so that they can cultivate the land and raise their standard of living. This is a caring Government which wants, at all costs, to improve –

 

Mr Livune: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

 

Mr Livune: Madam Speaker, I stand on a very serious point of order. I was quietly seated like the hon. Member of Parliament for Katombola Constituency behaves in this House, very honourably. Is the hon. Member for Lubansenshi in order to bring Kazungula into contestation when the farmers in Kazungula have not collected their fertiliser for the 2019/2020 farming season? Is he in order to provoke them so that they can get annoyed with this Government and make me to start quenching the fire on behalf of this Government which does not deserve to be protected? Is he in order to provoke those farmers who are waiting for their fertiliser which the PF has failed to deliver to-date in Kazungula. I seek your serious ruling on this unfair debate to do with Kazungula farmers.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Because Kazungula is part of Zambia, the hon. Member for Lubansenshi is in order to discuss Kazungula in his debate.

 

May the hon. Member for Lubansenshi continue, please.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwamba: Madam Speaker, before I was interrupted by that point of order, I was saying that Kazungula, Lubansenshi and other places have farmers and this Government cares for them.

 

Mr Livune: Question!

 

Mr Mwamba: It takes fertiliser to them. Therefore, it does not discriminate. It distributes to all areas in this country. So, if it has the capacity to do this, how can our hon. Colleagues on your left say it has failed? We are not seeing any failure in that, if it is able to manage this economy in that manner, deliver and distribute to the farmers. One million farmers are receiving fertiliser from the money that this Budget is talking about. It was yesterday when it was flagged off –

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Business was suspended from 1810 hours until 1830 hours.

 

[MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

 

Mr Mwamba: Madam Speaker, before business was suspended, I was trying to illustrate a point that a government that cares for its people also provides services so that its people are not suffering. There has been talk about poverty in the country. Therefore, because this PF Government cares, it has devised a method where people get money through the Social Cash Transfer Scheme. This is for those who are unable –

 

Hon. UPND Members: Where?

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwamba: I am speaking. The Government is giving money to people who are vulnerable.

 

Mr Sing’ombe: Where?

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwamba: The people are getting this money which is coming from the Government because it cares.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mwamba: Madam Speaker, I would like to say that the PF Government does not behave like a bachelor or an opposition political party.

 

Ms Mulenga: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwamba: An opposition political party or bachelor has no priorities. Therefore, you will never find these two entities come up with a budget. They will simply sit down and talk. The PF Government has a responsibility and mandate to deliver its priorities and that is why it has lined up, even in this Budget, what it has to do so that it reduces poverty in this country. Therefore, the people today are getting that money through the Social Cash Transfer Scheme.

 

Madam Speaker, when we come to the health sector, the Government is putting up a lot of infrastructure to ensure that medical services are taken closer to where the people are. Due to that, big hospitals and clinics are being constructed.

 

Madam Speaker, today, people with cancer are being treated here in Lusaka, at a big hospital that has been constructed.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwamba: All this is because this Government cares. Who has the courage to stand up and say that this Government has failed when even the people whom we talk to out there are able to see and are getting treatment from these hospitals? Where is the failure? People are talking about corruption. The money which the Government is getting from outside the country through debts which it has incurred today is part of the money which is being used for investment in infrastructure development like secondary schools, better roads in our areas. The standard of living for the people is also being uplifted.

 

Madam Speaker, we have been saying that we want ambulances to reach rural areas, but some people are saying that this is where they are spending money, yet we are able to see items. So, the core business for this Budget is to ensure that the standard of living for the people of Zambia is improved. What happens is that the Government has to borrow so that it improves standards of living for the people. This is not the only country which is borrowing.

 

Mrs Simukoko: Not at all!

 

Mr Mwamba: Not at all, yes.

 

Even bigger countries borrow. America and China are able to borrow and they are paying back slowly. So, the PF Government will not stop borrowing because the money is invested in the people. The Government is putting up better infrastructure to better the lives of the people. Many debaters here have mentioned roads which this Government has put up. If you a historian like I said, go back to the eras of the United National Independence Party (UNIP) and Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) governments and compare the infrastructure that was there and what we have now during the PF regime. If we put infrastructure development in the Budget, where is the problem or failure which people are talking about?

 

Madam Speaker, I think we have to be realistic because all of us here are leaders coming from places where there are people who want to be helped. We must have a feeling for the people. We are not here to just talk to the camera so that people say that the hon. Member of Parliament for Lubansenshi is talking about this and that, and yet what I am talking about is not helping my people. Our people see what we do and hear what we say. Therefore, our job is, and I want to agree with the hon. Member for Mwembeshi, who said we are part of the Government. So, the Opposition, the hon. Members who are seated on your left, is part of this Government. If they want to deny it that they are not part of the Government, let them get back to the three arms of Government. They all come from one body and that is the central Government. So, what we decide here and whatever we do, including this Budget, they own it. If they want, let them disown it. Their people will also disown them.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Siwanzi (Nakonde): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving the voice of Nakonde an opportunity to debate the 2020 Budget.

 

Dr Hamukale: Hear, hear! Ya Siwanzi!

 

Mr Siwanzi: I want to announce on the Floor of this House that the people of Nakonde have accepted this Budget and are very happy because it s a budget that seeks to offer an ordinary citizen of this country an economic benefit of a lifetime.

 

Mr Livune: Question!

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Siwanzi: Madam Speaker, I had an opportunity to peruse through the alternative budget of the United Party for National Development (UPND) and I can state here that the rightful place for that budget is –

 

Mr Sing’ombe: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

 

Mr Sing’ombe: Madam Speaker, is the hon. Member for Nakonde in order not to indicate that the Budget is only good to him because the President of Tanzania gave him a bit of money to rehabilitate his school? Is he in order to keep quiet about that?

 

Laughter

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

The hon. Member for Nakonde is in order. He is one of the few, fortunate hon. Members of Parliament who was able to attract the attention of His Excellency, the President of the Republic of Tanzania.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: You may continue with your debate.

 

Mr Siwanzi: Madam Speaker, I thank you. We are one with the Tanzanians.

 

Madam Speaker, before I go in-depth of my debate, I want to demonstrate to this House how this Government has performed in the past. One can tell from this Budget that this is a listening Government, and I will demonstrate that.

 

Madam Speaker, it was on the Floor of this House that the Motion was raised by the Opposition in which they were urging the Government to dismantle the pensioners’ arrears. In response, the Government told the Opposition that it did not need to be reminded about this because it had already planned to do that. This is a listening Government, and through this Budget, it has demonstrated that it is going to dismantle these arrears.

 

Madam Speaker, the second thing I am going to look at to demonstrate this point is the price of maize. It was on the Floor of this House that many hon. Members on the left requested the Government to raise the price of maize. The Government responded by raising the price of maize from K85 to K110 per bag. However, it is surprising to me that some economists debated on the Floor of this House and asked why the price of mealie meal is K140 or K160 per bag. Yet, the learned economists know that the major raw material in the production of mealie meal is maize. If a bag of maize is K110, how do you expect a bag of mealie meal to be less than K110? This is the reality in business. There is no way you can expect a bag of mealie meal to have a lower price that the cost of the raw material used to produce that particular commodity.

 

Madam Speaker, I want to touch on the issue of the Value Added Tax (VAT). This issue demonstrates that this Government is a listening Government. There was the issue of the Sales Tax. I was privileged to have travelled with the former hon. Minister of Finance to my constituency to hear the views of the people on the Sales Tax. The people spoke and this Government listened and it has come back to this House to say that it will maintain the VAT.

 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Siwanzi: Madam Speaker, I urge the hon. Minister of Finance to continue researching on the Sales Tax even as we have shelved the idea. It would not be a bad idea to implement the Sales Tax in future if it will work for us. My point is that this is a listening Government.

 

Madam Speaker, I would like to quote from the Budget Speech of on page 1, paragraph 6:

 

“Sir, the 2020 Budget takes into account the challenges highlighted by His Excellency, the President. The Budget and the policy measures, therefore, prioritise creating fiscal space, ensuring debt sustainability and dismantling domestic arrears. I will pay particular attention to the dismantling of areas related to pensioners and suppliers of goods and services to Government.”

 

Madam Speaker, what does this mean to an ordinary person in Nakonde? We have contractors who are working in Nakonde on a number of projects. Once these arrears are dismantled, the benefit will trickledown even to an ordinary person selling in a restaurant or a taxi driver because people will have the buying power. Therefore, I commend the hon. Minister for prioritising the issue of dismantling the debt.

 

Madam Speaker, with regard to economic affairs, on page 18, the hon. Minister said he allocated K10,552,606,147 to road infrastructure. This is very good. The hon. Member of Parliament for Dundumwezi rose on a point of order on an issue that happened in Nakonde. I can announce on the Floor of this House that I met the President of Tanzania, President Magufuli. The two heads of state of Tanzania and Zambia converged in Nakonde where they commissioned the one-stop-border post. This is a demonstration that this Government is a working Government which is investing in infrastructure.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Question!

 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Siwanzi: This working Government has commenced the rehabilitation of the Great North Road from Chinsali to Nakonde to the tune of K1.4 billion. This is a good thing for our country.

 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Siwanzi: Madam Speaker, for the first time since independence, this Government is upgrading the Nakonde/Kanyala Road to bituminous standard. This is something which has never happened. It never happened in the United National Independence Party (UNIP) era and the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) Government. This is a success for the people of Nakonde and the Government. An ordinary person in the country can see that this Government is working.

 

Madam Speaker, I want to touch on the issue of infrastructure. I appreciate that the hon. Minister has allocated funds to road infrastructure. However, there is need to protect the road infrastructure which we are constructing. I am also speaking to the hon. Minister of Housing and Infrastructure Development in relation to the Budget. Probably 99 per cent of the foreign trucks which enter and leave Zambia through Nakonde are Tanzanian. Each truck pays a US$300 fee when entering the country, but imagine the damage that these trucks are causing to our roads.

 

When a truck enters the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC), it pays about K1,800. So, what we are earning from toll fees from trucks is not sufficient enough to maintain our roads. We are investing a lot of money in our roads, but we are retaining very little for road maintenance. Therefore, I urge the hon. Minister to look at this issue urgently.

 

Madam Speaker, still on roads, the highway from Nakonde to Chembe does not have a weighbridge. So, the truck drivers have taken advantage of this and they are now avoiding the Great North Road. Instead, they are using the Mbala/Nakonde Road which was built to the tune of US$180 million. That road is a marvel, but it is getting damaged at a fast rate because there is no weighbridge facility all the way from Nakonde, Mbala, Kasama, Mansa up to the DRC. I, therefore, urge the Government to look at this issue because we are spending too much money to maintain the roads. Further, we are investing a lot in road infrastructure development.

 

Madam, the other issue I would like to talk about is the Statutory Instrument which was issued in 2017. However, it has not been implemented up to now. This Statutory Instrument would have seen the transportation of heavy cargo via rail instead of roads. If this Statutory Instrument had been implemented, our roads would last longer because the trucks from the coast which are entering our country are heavily loaded and destroying the roads. Therefore, even if we construct roads and maintain them, they will get damaged at a fast rate within a short period of time. Therefore, I urge the Government to ensure that this Statutory Instrument aimed at reducing the tonnage transported on our roads is enforced to enable the roads to last longer.

 

Madam Speaker, I appeal to my hon. Colleagues in this House to be objective as they debate. For instance, when people are debating, they do not mind that the examples they give can create a very bad image out there. Suffice to say that I was listening to a debate from one of the senior hon. Members of Parliament and he was saying he had convened a meeting and one of the people who attended the meeting fainted, and he attributed that to hunger in the nation. He should have provided food for the people he called to a meeting.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Simbao (Senga Hill): Madam Speaker, I will start by saying that when we discuss the Budget, it is important that we try to get the attention of all the people in the country.

 

Madam Speaker, the main component of the Budget is tax. When a person looks at our tax base, he/she will see that it is not enough, yet many people are earning money but they are not willing to contribute to the coffers of the nation. People think that the Government has another way of getting money other than through tax, hence the disconnection. People want many things to be done, but they do not want to be part of the work. They just want to see things happen. The Government has a duty to collect money. I, therefore, appeal to all the people in the country to understand that if they do not contribute anything to the Government, the Government will not have money to carry out the things they want it to do. For instance, for the Government to work on the roads or build schools, it has to raise money, and this money can only come from taxes collected. It cannot come from anywhere else. So, I hope the people in the country can understand that if they do not want to be part of the taxpayers, the Government will find it very difficult to do what they want it to do.

 

Madam, I call the new hon. Minister as the “just-on-time hon. Minister” because he delivered the Budget Speech on time. We have had cases where we questioned when the Budget Speech would come. We also had cases where the Budget Speech was delivered three weeks after the President’s Speech instead of the normal two weeks after. In this particular case, the hon. Minister managed to present it in the expected time. This showed how much his predecessor did in preparing it. I suppose she did a lot of work. That is why the new hon. Minister presented the Budget Speech in time.

 

Madam, I would like to say something which is similar to what others have said. It is very saddening that when a speech is presented here, people look for negatives. They do not want to look for positives. It is very disheartening to hear people say that a person of the caliber of the hon. Minister of Finance has brought a speech to this House which does not hold out hope. It is very important to look at what the hon. Minister is trying to do for the country whenever we receive the Budget Speech.

 

Madam, there is no way one speech can cover everything which is required in the country. It is not possible. It can concentrate on infrastructure or health; even then, only parts of those sectors will be addressed. It is not possible to focus on all the sectors in one Budget. So, when people come here and start saying that certain things are missing in the speech, they are not being fair. Even if it were them coming up with the Budget, they would not address all the problems in the country at once. In addition, they forget that there are many things that they do not come across. The hon. Minister of Finance is responsible for everything to do with money in this country. For instance, he is responsible for the provision of salt or a needle for sewing. People forget that he is responsible for the provision of soap or maize. They only talk about mealie meal when all the things that cost money are on his shoulders. He has to see to it that all the things are available. It does not matter whether it is private or public money. If the money is not available, it is him who is responsible for finding it. He makes sure that the country has even the simplest thing like toilet tissue. He makes sure all the things we take for granted are available. That is not a simple responsibility; it is a very difficult task.

 

Madam, people are claiming that things are hard. They should know that the hon. Minister has taken up this job because he is a tough man. He knows that he is going to straighten this economy.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

 Mr Simbao: He knows it. For that reason, I have a lot of hope in the Budget Speech which he presented.

 

Madam Speaker, on page 11 of the Budget Speech, the hon. Minister talked about students. There is no better investment than investing in students. If you really want to move a country forward, concentrate on the education of your children. The hon. Minister talked about building hostels for universities which has been a very big problem such that students overcrowd in one room. We have heard that one room accommodates eight students while others sleep on top of buildings.

              

However, the hon. Minister of Finance has decided to put a stop to this. That is the way the Government must work. It must work from basics and students are the basics of this country. If we do not educate our children, Zambia will go nowhere. It does not matter which President will come in future. Therefore, this hon. Minister has decided to put a lot of emphasis on the students’ welfare. If we do not educate people, it will not matter who we will bring in because we will go nowhere.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Bauze!

 

Mr Simbao: Madam Speaker, I am very impressed with what the hon. Minister said in paragraph 77. He talked about the National Science Centre. I must say that the problem we have in this country is that we have neglected Science, Technology, Engineering and Mathematics, which is abbreviated as STEM. A lot of people who are laughing in this House have run away from this and pursued simple courses which generate nothing.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Simbao: If something is not science, it is nature. There are no two ways about it. This country has neglected STEM, but this hon. Minister of Finance has decided to revise this and bring back STEM to this country.

 

Madam, the other problem we have in this country is that we always want to compare ourselves to other countries like the United States of America (USA) and Germany. Those people have already secured the numbers which they need to move their countries forward. They have already done that. So, when they try to encourage art and other things, it is because they are already comfortable. They have already built enough schools to push the people they need to move their countries forward and we want to compare ourselves with those countries. In our universities, the number of people who graduate in other courses may be 10,000 and only 150 graduate in engineering. This shows that we are going nowhere yet people do not want to understand that. This hon. Minister is trying to reverse that and we must support him. He is trying to ensure that we have more schools of technology in this country. Here we are, we have graduates who argue over one thing the whole day or month or fourteen days. What are you up to?

 

Laughter

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Simbao: Regarding science, we only have one thing which is to get the formula right and no one else is going to argue against you. This is what we need to do. I really praise the hon. Minister and I pray that he is going to actualise what he has put in the 2020 Budget. This is going to be a game changer once it is done. This country will be become like Rwanda.

 

Hon. Government Members: Yes!

 

Mr Simbao: It will become like Botswana. It will not continue like the Zambia that it always has been but others want it to continue the way it is. This must stop. We must cut down on these other courses and concentrate on STEM.

 

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister talked about zero-rating copper for factories or industries that are within Zambia. This is a very progressive move. It does not make sense for people in this country to be buying copper at the London Metal Exchange (LME) rate. The LME has a lot of components. It has premium and freight and so many other things, and yet the people in Zambia who are dealing with copper buy at the LME price.

 

Madam, every country has an anchor commodity and for this country our anchor commodity is copper. If our anchor commodity is copper, then we should have thought through what we can do with some of this copper. I know that people will say Chile also produces copper, but Chile at least tries to convert 20 per cent of that copper into products within the country. Last year, the Chileans produced 5.8 million metric tonnes of copper and they could not use all that, but they exported the rest. At least they tried to convert 20 per cent of that, but we are converting less than 5 per cent or 2 per cent now because the Metal Fabricators of Zambia Plc (ZAMEFA) is almost not operational. There is Neelkanth Cables Limited in Ndola, which is producing very little. So, really, we are maybe just converting 1 per cent of the copper which we mine in Zambia. We are not doing ourselves any good.

 

Madam Speaker, let me say this, maybe people do not know, the known reserves in the world has 2.6 trillion kilograms of copper. We started mining copper as far back as 4,000 B. C. and ever since, we have only used 12 per cent of that. Copper occurs almost everywhere and so, Zambia is not special. It was in Japan and England before it was exhausted. It is almost everywhere. Right now, we are sitting on 2.6 trillion kilograms, and yet ever since we started mining it, we have only used 12 per cent. Therefore, you can imagine how much copper is still in the world.

 

Madam, we are not special. The only way we can become special is by trying to convert this copper which we have and turn it into products which we can sell. The markets are open. We know that Egypt, Kenya, India and many other countries that are open for our copper. There are many other countries where we can sell copper after adding value to it. The hon. Minister has said that if we produce products within the country, the cost of copper will be less and I think, that is the way to go.

 

Madam, in countries where they have done this, the products produced in the country are subsidised by the Government so that they look cheaper to the outside world. Now, as long as you start shipping these things in bulk, you can change the pricing formula that you have. However, you cannot start selling the same thing in Zambia at a price at which it is sold in China because it will not be attractive. So, it must be subsidised here so that it looks cheaper in China. For example, if we want to sell our cables to South Africa, they must be at a cheaper price. The Governments must take some of these costs or else we are not going to add value to our copper. Therefore, adding value to our copper will need the Government to drive it. It must not be left to individual companies. I have noted the way the South Koreans, Singaporeans and Israelites do it is that their governments are in the forefront.

 

Even now, if you look at the USA, President Trump is in the forefront talking a lot about the economy. If we really want to benefit from value addition in terms of copper, the Government must drive the agenda. We have trade attachés in most missions. Those people must do their work. Let us give them targets and let them work for us.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

(Debate adjourned)

 

ADJOURNMENT

 

The Chief Whip and Acting Leader of Government Business in the House (Mr Mundubile): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

 

_______

 

The House adjourned at 1910 hours until 1430 hours on Thursday, 9^th October, 2019.

____________

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Notice of an item for debate on the Motion of Adjournment of the House has been received.

 

MOTIONS

 

ADJOURNMENT: BAN POLITICAL PARTIES AND ORGANISATIONS SUPPORTING LESBIAN, GAY, BISEXUAL AND TRANSGENDER RIGHTS IN ZAMBIA

 

Dr Malama (Kanchibiya): Madam Speaker, my fellow citizens of this great country have clearly stated in our laws which render homosexuality an illegality and state its consequences. The Penal Code Act, Cap. 87 of the Laws of Zambia, is very clear and for the sake of clarity let me look at it. Section 155 of this Act talks about unnatural offences with regard to canal knowledge, which means ubulalelale, abaume na baume, abanakashi na banakashi.

 

Ms Mulenga: Owe!

 

Mr Ngulube: Meaning?

 

Dr Malama: Male to male or female to female. This section is in the following terms:

 

“Any person who –

 

1. has carnal knowledge of any person against the order of nature; or
2. has carnal knowledge of an animal; or
3. permits a male person to have carnal knowledge of him or her against the order of nature;

 

is guilty of a felony and is liable to imprisonment for fourteen years.”

 

Madam Speaker, Section 158 of the same Act reads as follows:

 

“Any male person who, whether in public or private, commits any act of gross indecency with another male person, or procures another male person to commit any act of gross indecency with him, or attempts to procure the commission of any such act by any male person with himself or with another male person, whether in public or private, is guilty of a felony and is liable to imprisonment for five years.”

 

Madam Speaker, this is in Bemba says, umwaume asendema na umwaume mu nankwe, just as I said it in English. Umwaume acita ubupulumushi no umwaume munankwe.

 

Madam Speaker, these are our laws. As a consequence, the Societies Act Cap. 119 of the Laws of Zambia, is also very clear. For avoidance of doubt, allow me to quote as follows:

 

“13. (1) The Minister may, in his/her discretion, cancel at any time the registration of any society effected under the provisions of section seven if he is satisfied that it is expedient so to do on the ground that –

 

1. the society concerned has, in his opinion, among its objects, or is, in his opinion, likely to pursue, or to be used for, any unlawful purpose or any purpose prejudicial to or incompatible with the peace, welfare or good order in Zambia; or
2. the interests of peace, welfare or good order in Zambia would, in his opinion, be likely to suffer prejudice by reason of the continued registration of such society.”

 

Madam Speaker, today, this Parliament has been very busy from morning. We have met to deliberate on vey very important issues that concern our people. In fact, instead of this Motion, I would have wanted to talk about what the Patriotic Front (PF) Government is doing, such as the road infrastructure development and the hope that this Budget has brought. I would have liked us to continue talking about the gold and the hope that it is bringing to our people.

 

Whilst I would like to talk about that, this evening allow me, because if I spare a rod I will spoil the child. We cannot avoid this frank discourse. Let me tell you about one organisation called Africa Liberal Network (ALN). I know many decent people in this country do not know about it. I do not even know it either, but I have information with me. I will lay it on the Table for anyone who wants to jerk forward and backwards.

 

Laughter

 

Dr Malama: Madam Speaker, the ALN Secretary General, who is called the co-ordinator is based in South Africa. On 11^th June, 2019, she said the following:

 

“The Botswana Movement for Democracy (BMD), a member of the African Liberal Network (ALN) and subsequently Liberal International, is thrilled …

 

Madam, let us look at the word ‘thrilled’ as underlined and in bold letters.

 

 “… by the Republic of Botswana High Court judgment in which today, a bench of three judges repealed Sections 164(a)(c) and 165 of the Penal Code. The High Court found the repealed sections, which were prohibiting intercourse…”

 

Madam Speaker, ubulalelale is what this woman was talking about. She continued as follows:

 

“… and ultimately love and affection amongst persons of the LGBT community, to be contrary to the constitution of the land, and as such being discriminatory.”

 

Prof. Luo: What a shame!

 

Dr Malama: This lady, who is the co-ordinator, said:

 

“This High Court judgment is not only a historical and landmark ruling to Botswana …”

 

 Dr Malama: This lady was very happy. When the word ‘landmark’ is used, you even pause like you have discovered something very important. Umwaume alelala no mwaume munakwe and this group describes it as a landmark.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

That is not the official language of this House.

 

Dr Malama: Madam Speaker, thank you very much. I will interpret.

 

It means a man having sexual intercourse with a fellow man. She said:

 

This High Court ruling is not only historical and landmark to Botswana, but a guidance and advisory to the continent and the whole world, especially those countries which continue to criminalise the freedoms of LGBT persons.”

 

Madam Speaker, where this lady sat, she was very happy about that ruling and now she has started speaking to the continent of Africa and the whole world. She was very ambitious that she could not even pause at the continent, but appealed to the whole world.

 

Ms Mulenga: Mmm!

 

Dr Malama: I know, even I am shocked.

 

Laughter

 

Dr Malama: I am not surprised.

 

Ms Mulenga: Ema IG aya!

 

Dr Malama: Madam Speaker, I can see you are very shocked. I am too.

 

Madam Speaker, it means countries that criminalise the freedom of lesbians, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) people, “abaume abalala na baume,” such as Zambia –

 

Mr Belemu: Question!

 

Dr Malama: Ah, ah! Can you question that? Who is that?

 

Laughter

 

Mr Nakacinda clapped.

 

Dr Malama: Madam Speaker, that is coming from your left. It is not coming from my left but your left, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

 Hon. Member for Kanchibiya, questioning is allowed, as you know.

 

Dr Malama: Correct!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: What is not allowed is the clapping as I have noticed by Hon. Nakacinda. That is not allowed.

 

You may continue with your Motion.

 

Dr Malama: Madam Speaker, let me just thank –

 

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: You do not want him to continue? You have indicated that you intend to debate.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member is continuously using a native language. You have guided …

 

Interruptions

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order on both sides of the House!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: … that he must interpret the language. That is the rule of this House.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

You have stated the issue even before I could allow you to raise your point of order.

 

Interruptions

 

Prof. Luo interjected.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Minister of Fisheries and Livestock!

 

Interruptions

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

The mover of this item will bear in mind that we have an official language and he should try as much as possible to use that language.

 

The hon. Member for Kanchibiya may continue.

 

Dr Malama: Madam Speaker, I thank you, and I acknowledge that my brother might not fully understand Bemba, a language spoken on the Copperbelt Province, the Central Province, Luapula Province –

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Mwiimbu: What is that now?

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Resume your seat, hon. Member. Let me guide the House.

 

Dr Malama: I will translate that sentence into English.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker:  Hon. Member, resume your seat.

 

This item will lapse at 1955 hours, as you know, if you have read the rules. Therefore, I urge you to be efficient in the utilisation of the remaining minutes. Avoid attracting unnecessary attention.

 

You may continue your debate.

 

Dr Malama: Madam Speaker, I was thanking you for your guidance and acknowledging my brother who rose on a point of order. I said that I will translate the sentence to English. 

 

Madam Speaker, I will continue with the quotation. The woman said:

 

“This judgment should also be a reminder that workplaces, employers, schools, families, social hubs and public places should respect human rights. Whatever justification was used to degrade the dignity and humanity of fellow citizens, was in itself, an illogical thought process.

 

In response to the judgment, the BMD National Spokesperson and Head of Strategic Partnerships, Rasina Winfred Rasina has this to say ...”

 

Madam Speaker, this is the official spokesperson for the Africa Liberal Network with forty-seven political parties and organisations on the continent of Africa in thirty countries. It has a strategy and it is not a joke.

 

Laughter

 

Dr Malama: There is a lot of wit. Do not sit here and think this is innocent like the people of Zambia. No. Zambians are innocent concerning these things. This organisation has a strategy, and I will explain what I mean by this, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam Speaker, according to Rasina Winfred Rasina, to stop a man from sleeping with a fellow man is degrading and appalling. 

 

“In response to the judgment, BMD National Spokesperson and Head of Strategic Partnerships, Rasina Winfred Rasina had this to say:

 

‘We at the Botswana Movement for Democracy (BMD), together with our sister parties at the Africa Liberal Network and global liberal international family, shall continue to speak against the criminalisation of those liberal values that we believe are essential to human harmony. We shall continue to speak against discriminatory laws.’”

 

Madam Speaker, he mentioned sister parties. Ha! When you talk about sisters, you talk about those people you talk to and spend time with.

 

Ms Mulenga: Who are they?

 

Dr Malama: I will find them.

 

Dr Malama: They are connected and they are one. They are initiated together.

 

Laughter

 

Dr Malama: I used to be a policeman. I will find who these sister parties are. 

 

Interruptions

 

Dr Malama: Madam Speaker, for avoidance of doubt, I would like my hon. Colleagues in this House to follow very slowly and carefully what I am talking about here. This means that all the sister parties will continue to speak against Zambians who will say they do not allow a man to sleep with a fellow man. This organisation says it will fight those who will not allow a man to sleep with a fellow man.   

 

Madam Speaker, the BMD National Spokesperson went further to say:

 

“Here in Botswana, we thank and congratulate …”

 

Madam Speaker, I will skip where he is congratulating the organisation. The document is here and I will lay it on the Table. Whoever wants to see who the organisation congratulated will read this document. Amongst the people who were congratulated include donors with money and activists who worked tirelessly to ensure that the outcome of the matter is resounding, liberal and humane.        

 

Madam Speaker, let me now go to the constitution of this organisation so that it helps us understand who these sister parties are. It even has a constitution which says –

 

Interruptions

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order on both sides! 

 

The hon. Member for Kanchibiya may continue.         

 

Dr Malama: Madam Speaker, I thank you. The preamble of the constitution of the Africa Liberal Network says:

 

 “Whereas the Africa Liberal Network exists to empower liberal parties to grow their support, …”

 

So, those liberal parties are being supported to grow.

 

“ … to increase their influence on politics …”

 

So, in whichever country it is, it is increasing its influence on politics. In fact, it is increasing its influence on politics in thirty countries in Africa.

 

“ … and to implement their liberal policies when in government.”

 

Hon. Members: Ah!

 

Dr Malama: It is here. You are arguing? Madam Speaker, they are saying “Ah!”

 

Laughter

 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Malama: It is here. Let me go through it.

 

Interruptions

 

Dr Malama: For those who are surprised, let me read it. I know you are innocent.

 

“Whereas the Africa Liberal Network exists to empower liberal parties to grow …”

 

So, in other words, if it is a tree, it would be watered. If it is a political party, it will ensure that it grows financially, strategically and so on.

 

“… to grow their support to increase their influence on politics and to implement liberal policies when in government.”

 

Prof. Luo: What a shame!

 

Dr Malama: So, when these parties supported by the Africa Liberal Network get into Government, they will see to it that a male will have sex with a male, a woman with a woman and they will be fine with that.

 

Hon. PF Members: Shame!

 

Laughter

 

Mrs Simukoko: God forbid!

 

Dr Malama: Madam Speaker, it is written here in this document. I did not fabricate or type it. It is out there. Even those who are watching who want to check what I am talking about can just search for Africa Liberal Network right now.

 

Prof. Luo: Who are the members?

 

Dr Malama: The second item reads:

 

“Whereas members of the Africa Liberal Network believe in liberalism, care about promoting liberal ideas and stand for liberal/values principles ...”

 

Madam, this is what it stands for, and so on. Let me go to Article 3 of its constitution which talks about its purpose and objectives at 3.1. This organisation knows how to write a constitution …

 

Laughter

 

Dr Malama: … but we cannot allow it to write the Zambian Constitution.

 

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Malama: We do not want to go to bed with dirty people. I quote:

 

“Article 3

The purpose and objective of the network are to:

 

3.1       Spread liberal values across the African Continent.”

 

Madam Speaker, does this organisation not know that Zambia is a Christian nation? Nevertheless, it is determined. I am telling it that this nation has a covenant with God. It shall not work. Let me go to its Article 5.1.7.  Here, this organisation is even segregative. When there is one political party in the country, that political party is the one to be supported. For any others to join, they have to ask this first political party which joined the network. So, it is only the first party to join that will allow others to join to permit liberal activities.

 

Laughter

 

Dr Malama: Madam Speaker, let me go straight to mention the regions where the Africa Liberal Network is. It is in Southern Africa, East Africa, Central Africa, West Africa and North Africa. Do you want me to go to Central Africa?

 

Hon. Member: No, Southern Africa!

 

Dr Malama: Alright, let me start with Southern Africa. It has five parties in the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) and one in Burundi. The party in Burundi is called the Alliance Démocratique pour le Renouveau, something like that.

 

Hon. Member: Ne shina lya bipisha!

 

Dr Malama: In the DRC, there are quite a number. Let me go to West Africa. There is one in Burkina Faso and Mali, respectively. In Senegal, there are two, then there is one in Guinea, Sierra Leon and Ivory Coast. There are two in Guinea. In East Africa, there is one in Kenya, one in Tanzania, one in Comoros, one in Somaliland, one in Ethiopia, one in Seychelles, one in Uganda, one in South Sudan and two in Sudan.

 

Mr Speaker, you can see that this network is determined. Let me come to Southern Africa. In South Africa, there is one. This political party was for ba bunu. There is a term for ba bunu. Initially, they supported apartheid in South Africa.

 

Madam Speaker, there is another one that I talked about which is the Botswana Movement for Democracy (BMD). These parties support a male sleeping with a male. Not just sleeping, but having intercourse.

 

Hon. PF Members: Sexual intercourse!

 

Dr Malama: Sexual intercourse.

 

Hon. Member: God forbid!

 

Dr Malama: In Mozambique, there is one called the Party for Peace, Democracy and Development (PDD). I am glad the Leader of the Opposition is interested to hear that. I am glad, and I am counting on him to help me on this one.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Malama: We need clean leaders in organisations.

 

Madam, in Malawi, there is one called FDD. It is not our FDD in Zambia. Let me state here to any one hearing about this FDD that it is not for Zambia, but Malawi.

 

Prof. Luo: What is the full name?

 

Dr Malama: The full name is the Forum for Democratic Devolution.

 

Hon. Members: Mm!

 

Dr Malama: It is very different from our FDD in Zambia which is led by a very innocent Zambian lady. This one is different and it is in Malawi, on our eastern border.

 

Madam, in Madagascar, there is one called MFM. I have never heard of it. The Militants pour le Progrès de Madagascar. In Malawi, there is another one called the United Democratic Front (UDF). So, there are two in Malawi.

 

Madam Speaker, I feel weak to learn that we have one in Zambia.

 

Hon. Members: Ah!

 

Interruptions

 

Dr Malama: I am telling you. It is here.

 

Hon. Members: No! Awe!

 

Interruptions

 

Dr Malama: It is here!

 

Interruptions

 

Dr Malama: Madam Speaker, let me speak through you.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Let him debate through me.

 

Interruptions

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Interruptions

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order on both sides of the House!

 

I would not like to send any one out of the Chamber at this moment in time.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: So, let us have some order.

 

May, the hon. Member for Kanchibiya continue, please.

 

Dr Malama: Madam Speaker, there is one in this country, but let me state that if our people in Zambia found out about this, they would not be happy. Our chiefs from the north, south, west, east, the Central and Lusaka provinces would not be happy. Our chiefs and our parents are very traditional.

 

Madam Speaker, on the Sabbath, the Seventh Day Adventist Church (SDA) is always teaching and advising our people to ensure that our values as a people are adhered to.

 

Mrs Chinyama: On a point of order, Madam.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Member for Kafue, I would like us to conclude this business without interruptions.

 

You may continue, hon. Member for Kanchibiya.

 

Dr Malama: Madam Speaker, I hear what the Catholic Church teaches …

 

Hon. Government Members: Hmmm.

 

Dr Malama: … when I go to my constituency and I sit in the parish.

 

Mr Lubinda: Correct!

 

Dr Malama: What my bishop teaches, Bishop Mulenga of Mpika Diocese, I hear. When I am here in Lusaka, I go to my church and Bishop Banda teaches. When I am visiting my cousins in the Eastern Province, the Reformed Church in Zambia is very clear. When I go to visit my in-laws kwahae, they are very religious.

 

Mr Mwamba: They go to which church?

 

Dr Malama: New Apostolic Church. When I go to visit in-laws in the Southern Province where my sisters are married, they are very clear. I hear what the Salvation Army and Seventh Day Adventist (SDA) teach. Therefore, I said where did this party get the audacity from?

 

Interruptions

 

Dr Malama: When I go to the United Church of Zambia (UCZ) …

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Malama: … a very good church, they teach the same thing. I said, “where did this political party –

 

Mr Mwamba: Bread of Life!

 

Dr Malama: Yes, the Bread of Life …

 

Laughter

 

Dr Malama: … Church has a wonderful bishop. In fact, I want to congratulate him. I think he just turned sixty-five years old. Bishop Imakando is a wonderful man of God, whom I have known for a long time. He turned sixty-five years old.

 

Mrs Simukoko: Wow!

 

Dr Malama: I wish I had attended the celebrations, but the business of the House kept us.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

He is not the subject under discussion.

 

Dr Malama: I am just congratulating him.

 

Madam Speaker, when you go to the Bread of Life Church, the bishop thunders. The other day I was with one political leader from one organisation and we were there praying. I was kneeling and he was seated by the side with his wife who is my mulamu. We were invited to the Bread of Life Church. I am glad that our hon. Minister of Religious Affairs and National Guidance was there too. We prayed nicely and we were told that the issues which are happening on other continents should not be brought to Zambia.

 

Prof. Luo: What are those things from other continents?

 

Dr Malama: Homosexuality, men sleeping with men …

 

Ms Mulenga: Women?

 

Dr Malama: … and women sleeping with women.

 

Interruptions

 

Dr Malama: The royal family kwahae has been there for a long time. I can tell you about the royal family of the Western Province. They have taught our people in Barotseland that it is better to follow God. There was a very wise man, the tenth Litunga called Mulambwa.

 

Madam Speaker, Mulambwa taught people how to live together.

 

Mr Mundubile: Tell us about the party that advocates for gays!

 

Dr Malama: No, I will come to the party later. I want to tell you what our people believe in. Mulambwa taught people how to live together. Mulambwa’s son was called Litiya. Unfortunately, Litiya was killed in 1863. Litiya had a son called Lubosi who came to the throne in 1878.

 

Laughter

 

Dr Malama: When Lubosi came to the throne, he embraced the Paris Mission Society. In Barotseland, there is a church which has grown and our people in the Western Province love God.

 

Mr Mubukwanu: That is right!

 

Dr Malama: Litunga Lubosi was on the throne up to 1916 and was succeeded by his Litiya who became known as Yeta III.

 

Mr Mwamba: I like history. You go ahead and tell us.

 

Dr Malama: Even Litiya continued to teach his people how to live together. If you go to Western Province, as a political party and tell them that you are a member of the ALN, they will chase you.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Malama: Our people in the Western Province are traditionalists. They love God.

 

Mr Lubinda: They are naturalists!

 

Dr Malama: When the brother took over from Yeta III, …

 

Laughter

 

Dr Malama: … Litunga Imwiko, was on the throne for two years.

 

Mr Sing’ombe: What has that got to do with the Motion?

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Leave him!

 

Dr Malama: Then came Litunga Mwanawina followed by Litunga Mbikusita. All those Litungas would not allow…

 

Prof. Luo: Allow inshi?

 

Dr Malama: … men sleeping with men. You cannot even go near a kuta (court).

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

 

Dr Malama: Aah, you are questioning that?

 

Laughter

 

Dr Malama: Can you go to the kuta and say that you are a member of the ALN? You cannot.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Why not?

 

Dr Malama: They can chase you away.

 

Madam Speaker, let me tell you, and I will be very categorical. When the children for Lubosi, who were four of them past on, then came the grandchildren who began to rule Barotseland. Even the grandchildren would not allow any member of the ALN. Even the Leader of the Opposition in the House knows that they cannot allow that.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Madam.

 

Dr Malama: Aah! You do not know that the Litunga cannot allow.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Mwiimbu: On a serious point of order, Madam Speaker.

 

Interruptions

 

Dr Malama: You think they can allow you?

 

Interruptions

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order! Order!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: He cannot be pointing at me.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

I want to deal with that. Kindly resume your seat.

 

Interruptions

 

Dr Malama rose.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Kanchibiya! Resume your seat.

 

Interruptions

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order! Order in the House!

 

Obviously, the hon. Member for Kanchibiya is not helping himself.

 

Interruptions

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: He is attracting these interruptions and the time is ticking. The hon. Leader of the Opposition in the House has indicated that he wants to debate.

 

Mr Mwale: We will give him a chance!

 

Mr Mung’andu: He will debate mailo!

 

Ms Lubezhi: Let him debate!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

I urge you not to bring him into your debate. Focus on your debate and conclude, so that you can allow others to also participate. As you know our rules do not allow us to continuously repeat ourselves in our debates.

 

Interruptions

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Kanchibiya, please continue with your debate.

 

Dr Malama: Madam Speaker, well, if someone thinks they can allow a member of the ALN can go out and speak for them, I will speak. It is my constitutional right to talk about this issue.

 

Madam, in Southern Province, Chief Mukuni would not allow that.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Malama: I do not think he can allow it.

 

Hon. Government Members: No, he cannot allow it!

 

Dr Malama: The chief cannot allow someone to go to him and say, “I am promoting a male sleeping with a male or a female sleeping with a female.”

 

Interruptions

 

Dr Malama: I do not think he would allow such a person.

 

Mr Syakalima: What type of sleeping?

 

Dr Malama: Having sex.

 

I do not think my cousins in the Eastern Province, Paramount Chiefs Gawa Undi and Mpezeni would allow such a person.

 

Madam Speaker, allow me to talk about these sister political parties.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Malama: These sister political parties they say that they are bound together and that they are of a like mind. Here in Zambia it is the United Party for National Development (UPND).

 

Hon. Government Members: Aha!

 

Interruptions

 

Dr Malama: It is written here (waved the document).

 

Hon. Government Members: Shame! Shame!

 

Interruptions

 

Dr Malama: In Zambia –

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Let us make noise as well!

 

Hon. UPND Members: Woo!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Aah!

 

Hon. UPND Members: Woo!

 

Interruptions

 

Dr Malama: Madam Speaker –

 

Interruptions

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order! Resume your seat.

 

Mr Sing’ombe: Umwe mukudya njoka!

 

Interruptions

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order! Order in the House!

 

Mr Belemu interjected.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Mbabala!

 

Laughter

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: May the hon. Member for Kanchibiya continue.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Malama: Madam Speaker, let me lay the paper on the Table in case they think I am lying.

 

Interruptions

 

Dr Malama laid the paper on the Table.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Sebana wikute!

 

Laughter

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Are you done?

 

Interruptions

 

Hon. UPND Members: Sebana wikute!

 

Dr Malama: Madam Speaker, for someone to join this organisation, the question that comes to one’s mind is: How did they join? The documents I have laid on the Table state that the leader of a party, …

 

Hon. Government Members: Iyee!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order hon. Members on my right!

 

Dr Malama: … secretary-general of the party and so on should sign before joining.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order hon. Members on my right!

 

Continue, hon. Member for Kanchibiya.

 

Dr Malama: Madam Speaker, I expect a responsible political party to be serious about these issues rather than sit here and say woa when there is evidence.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Ooh! Where is the evidence?

 

Dr Malama: That is evidence.

 

Such a political party must be ashamed of itself for bringing this country into ridicule.

 

Interruptions

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Is the hon. Member for Kanchibiya …

 

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

 

Dr Malama: You should be ashamed!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order! I think he is now being foolish!

 

Interruptions

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order! Order!

 

Hon. Government Member: Sebana wikute!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: No, you are being foolish now!

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Mwiimbu: You are an idiot! Ala!

 

Interruptions

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Honourable …

 

Mr Mwiimbu: There is no way he can be saying such things. Aah! Fuseki!

 

Hon. UPND Members: Fuseki! Get out!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Aah get out!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order! I am now going to move to the hon. Members on my left because the honourable –

 

Have you concluded?

 

Interruptions

 

Hon. Government Members: No!

 

Dr Malama: Madam Speaker, I have not finished.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Resume your seats, hon. Members.

 

Dr Malama: I have not finished.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: We are now misconducting ourselves. Let me guide the hon. Member for Kanchibiya. This privilege is available to every Member of Parliament to move a Motion on a Motion of adjournment. It is meant to discuss important national issues ...

 

Interruptions

 

Dr Malama: Is this not important?

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: … and not to create disorder in the House.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Mwiimbu: That is what you are doing!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members on both sides of the House, at the end of the day we are expected to act and conduct ourselves in an orderly manner. Hon. Member of Parliament for Kanchibiya, there is no need for that acrimony. You moved the Motion; you have been allowed to discuss and you have almost used all the time. I thought you would have wanted to hear what the other side has to say. That is the whole idea.

 

Dr Malama: This is democracy!

 

Interruptions

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Well! Continue with your debate.

 

Dr Malama: Yes! Madam Speaker, let me state that when we talk about issues that affect this country, it is very important to let the nation know. Many times I have risked my life for the defence and security of this country.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Malama: Therefore, we shall not allow people to come in the night and introduce liberal values that promote males sleeping with males. We cannot allow that.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: No!

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Thank you Madam Speaker. History is now repeating itself. We are aware that when President Michael Sata was in the Opposition, hon. Members on your right said he was promoting gay rights. They went throughout the country campaigning on these grounds and now they have come back on the same premise.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, when Mr Sata became President, he fired that man (Dr Malama) as Inspector-General of police …

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: … because of his incompetence.

 

Interruptions

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order! Order!

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Mwiimbu: That is what happened.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order Leader of the Opposition!

 

Hon. UPND Member: Mwaona manje!

 

Hon. UPND Member: Fired!

 

Interruptions

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order! Order!

 

I am on my feet. As the time is 1955 hours, I interrupt the proceedings and the debate lapses.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

1. _______

 

The House adjourned at 1956 hours until 1430 hours on Thursday, 10^th October, 2019.