Wednesday, 11th March, 2020

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Wednesday, 11th March, 2020

 

The House met at 1430 hours

 

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

 

NATIONAL ANTHEM

 

PRAYER

_______

 

RULINGS BY MR SPEAKER

 

POINT OF ORDER RAISED BY HON. G. LUBINDA, MP, MINISTER OF JUSTICE AGAINST HON. M. MUTELO, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR MITETE CONSTITUENCY, FOR ALLEGEDLY USING LANGUAGE THAT AMOUNTS TO HATE SPEECH ON THE FLOOR OF THE HOUSE

 

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, you will recall that on Thursday, 20th February, 2020, when the House was considering Question for Oral Answer No. 162 and Hon. Dr M. Malama, Member of Parliament for Kanchibiya Constituency, was asking a follow up question, Hon. G. Lubinda, MP, Minister of Justice, raised the following point of order:

 

“Thank you, Sir. I rise on a very serious point of order and I would like to apologise to the hon. Member.

 

Sir, I have only recovered from a minor shock and I seek your ruling. The hon. Member of Parliament for Mitete said in vernacular that, “Mwendi abalati fela ma Lozi”.

 

Meaning, they just do not like Lozis in reference to the Government. I, therefore, seek your ruling whether that statement in itself is not an expression of hate speech and an expression of one who would like to foment tribalism in this Parliament. Is the hon. Member in order to make such statements to remain on the record of Parliament?

 

Sir, I seek your ruling on this very serious matter, particularly at the time when all of us, well-meaning Zambians, and hon. Members of Parliament, are working very hard at stopping the growth of this tendency of tribalism in our country”.

 

In view of the vernacular language employed by Hon. M. Mutelo, Member of Parliament for Mitete Constituency, I reserved my ruling in order to reflect and consult on the import of the language employed. Hon. Members, I have since studied and reflected over the matter and I will now render my ruling.

 

I perused the verbatim record of Hon. M. Mutelo, MP’s debate of Thursday, 20th February, 2020, which gave rise to Hon. G. Lubinda, MP’s point of order. It revealed that Hon. M. Mutelo, MP, uttered the following words in Lozi, “Mwendi abalati fela ma Lozi” which when translated in English means,Maybe they just hate the Lozi people”.

 

Hon. Members, Hon. G. Lubinda, MP’s point of order alleged that Hon. M. Mutelo, MP, used hate speech or an unparliamentary expression in this House. In order to address the allegation, I found it necessary to define the phrase ‘hate speech’.

 

Hon. Members, I had recourse to Bryan A. Garner, Editor-in-Chief of the Blacks Law Dictionary, Ninth Edition, (USA, Thompson Reuters 2009), which defines ‘hate speech’ at page 1529, in the  following terms:

 

“Speech that carries no meaning other than the expression of hatred for some group, such as a particular race, especially in circumstances in which communication is likely to provoke violence”.

 

The import of the above definition is that hate speech involves one’s public expression of hatred for a particular race or grouping, which causes a negative reaction towards that race or grouping that may even result in violence.

 

Hon. Members, from the verbatim record, it is evident that Hon. M. Mutelo, MP, used the phrase complained of in reference to the absence of a temporary bridge on the Lusaka/Mongu Road and not as an expression of hatred against any particular group or class of persons. In this regard, the statement did not amount, in my considered view, to hate speech.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Speaker: However, while the statement did not amount to hate speech, the context in which Hon. M. Mutelo, MP, used it, contended that the Zambian Government does not like the Lozi people, hence, the delay in the rehabilitation of the Lusaka/Mongu Road temporary bridge. This in itself, hon. Members, has the potential to provoke a perception among the Lozi people that the Government has ill feelings towards them when, in fact, it is not substantiated. Therefore, to the extent that Hon. M. Mutelo, MP, suggested that the Government disregards the Lozi people, he was out of order.

 

Hon. Members, I wish to seize this opportunity to urge hon. Members to desist from making unfounded statements that tend to promote ill feelings amongst the citizens. As hon. Members, you are national leaders and should not be in the forefront of promoting ill feelings amongst the citizens. Such statements do not only tend to lower the decorum and dignity of the House, but also have the potential of causing unnecessary tension in the country in general and the House in particular. I, therefore, urge hon. Members to desist from such conduct.

 

I thank you.

 

POINT OF ORDER RAISED BY HON. G. LUBINDA, MINISTER OF JUSTICE, AGAINST HON. K. S. MICHELO, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR BWEENGWA CONSTITUENCY, FOR STATING THAT THE ADDRESS BY HER EXCELLENCY THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE FEDERATION COUNCIL OF THE FEDERAL ASSEMBLY OF THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION WAS NOT IMPORTANT

 

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, you will recall that on Tuesday, 18th February, 2020, when the House was considering Question for Oral Answer No. 155 and the Member of Parliament for Sikongo Constituency, Hon. M. Ndalamei, MP, was on the Floor, Hon. G. Lubinda, MP, Minister of Justice, raised a point of order against Hon. K. S. Michelo, Member of Parliament for Bweengwa Constituency.

 

The gist of the point of order was whether Hon. K. S. Michelo, MP, was in order to refer to the address to the National Assembly on 18th February, 2020, by Her Excellency the Chairperson of the Federal Assembly of the Russian Federation as unimportant. In her immediate response, Madam First Deputy Speaker, Hon. Namugala, reserved her ruling to review the record to determine whether such a comment was in fact made. The context in which Hon. G. Lubinda, MP, Minister of Justice raised the point of order is as follows.

 

Hon. Members, on the material day, Hon. C. Mweetwa, Member of Parliament for Choma Central Constituency rose on a point of order to ask why a ministerial statement on the security situation following the gassing incidents in the country had not been rendered by the hon. Minister of Home Affairs as directed by myself. In responding to the point of order, the hon. Madam First Deputy Speaker explained that the hon. Minister of Home Affairs was unable to render the ministerial statement because of the address by the Chairperson of the Federal Assembly of the Russian Federation. In this regard, the point of order by Hon. G. Lubinda, MP, alleged that while the hon. Madam First Deputy Speaker was responding to Hon. C. Mweetwa’s point of order, Hon. K. S. Michelo, MP, made running commentaries to the effect that the address by Her Excellency the Chairperson of the Federal Assembly of the Russian Federation was not important.

 

Hon. Members, my office had recourse to the verbatim transcript and listened to the relevant recording of the proceedings as follows:

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member …

 

Mr Mweetwa: In Choma, last night, students at Choma Medical School were gassed. So, I am now wondering. If Mr Speaker directs that a ministerial statement should be brought to this House and it does not come, what is the state of affairs? I need your ruling.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Michelo: It was not even important.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The state of affairs, as the House will guess, is that because of the address by Her Excellency the Speaker of the Federation Council of the Federal Assembly of the Russian Federation, it was not possible for the hon. Minister of Home Affairs …

 

Mr Michelo: It was not even important.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Mr Michelo: It was not important.

 

Laughter

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Members, let me conclude my remarks without running commentaries”.

 

This material referred to above established that Hon. K. S. Michelo, MP, did indeed make running commentaries and utter the words complained of by the hon. Minister of Justice.

 

Hon. Members, it goes without saying that running commentaries disrupt the smooth transaction of business in the House. In this regard, the rules of the House proscribe hon. Members from making running commentaries. To this effect, paragraphs 5, 6 and 7 of Chapter Five of the Members’ Handbook, 2006, states as follows:

 

“5.       Members should not interrupt any Member while speaking by disorderly expression or noises or in any disorderly manner.

 

6.         Members should maintain silence when not speaking in the House.

 

7.         Members should not obstruct proceedings, or interrupt and should avoid making running commentaries when another Member is speaking”.

 

Therefore, based on the authority cited above, Hon. K. S. Michelo was clearly out of order.

 

Further, hon. Members, I wish to state that the importance of the address by Her Excellency the Chairperson of the Federal Assembly of the Russian Federation to this House cannot be overemphasised. In the address, Her Excellency indicated that co-operation with Zambia was one of Russia’s priorities. She further highlighted various areas in which Russia was collaborating with the Republic of Zambia, notably; in the education and energy sectors.

 

Hon. Members, it is, therefore, extremely regrettable that an hon. Member could denigrate the address to the National Assembly by Her Excellency the Chairperson of the Federal Assembly of the Russian Federation. The conduct of Hon. K. S. Michelo, MP, is totally unacceptable and undermines the decorum and dignity of the House. The sentiment of Hon. Michelo, MP, on Her Excellency’s address does not even reflect the position of this august House. Therefore, in order to protect the integrity of this House and ensure that the correct position of the House on the address is upheld, I direct the Office of the Clerk to expunge Hon. Michelo, MP’s running commentaries from the Hansard.

 

In conclusion, hon. Members, I wish to caution those hon. Members in the habit of making running commentaries and generally conducting themselves in an undignified manner in the House to, henceforth, desist from such conduct.

 

I thank you.

 

_______

 

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

 

KAPOCHE BRIDGE WASHED AWAY

 

239. Mr W. Banda (Milanzi) asked the Minister of Housing and Infrastructure Development:

 

  1. whether the Government is aware that Kapoche Bridge in Milanzi Parliamentary Constituency was washed away, following heavy rains, thereby making it difficult for the residents of Chiefs Kawaza and Kathumba to cross to either side;
  2. if so, what immediate measures are being taken to resolve the problem; and
  3. when the reconstruction of the bridge will commence.

 

The Minister of Housing and Infrastructure Development (Mr Mwale): Mr Speaker, the Government is aware of the washed away bridge at Kapoche crossing point in Milanzi Parliamentary Constituency following heavy rains.

 

Sir, the Road Development Agency (RDA) will soon undertake an assessment of the damage on the crossing point.

 

Mr Speaker, repair works on the crossing point will be undertaken after the assessment and funds are secured from the Ministry of Finance.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Mr W. Banda: Mr Speaker, –

 

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Sir.

 

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, thank you for according me this opportunity to raise a very serious point of order, which is in the interest of the nation.

 

Mr Speaker, I would like you to take judicial notice that the Minister of Agriculture, Hon. Katambo, has on several occasions, on the Floor of this House, informed the nation and this House that there was no shortage of maize in the country and that there will be no shortage of the staple food.

 

Mr Speaker, what recently transpired in this country is very unfortunate, and there is currently a very severe shortage of mealie meal in most towns in Zambia. In situations where it is available, the millers have reduced the packaging but the price has remained the same, meaning technically the price has sky rocketed. Members of the public have been inquiring as to what has caused the shortage of the mealie meal, but my colleagues on your right, through the hon. Minister of Agriculture, have been quite over this issue.

 

Mr Speaker, the issue of mealie meal, which is the staple food of this country, is highly sensitive. In the past, it led to strikes and riots, and we cannot afford to have such a situation. Is the hon. Minister of Agriculture in order to remain quiet, having assured the nation that there was no shortage of the staple food?

 

Mr Speaker: I direct the hon. Minister of Agriculture to render a ministerial statement on the subject next week on Tuesday.

 

Hon. Member for Milanzi, you may continue.

 

Mr W. Banda: Mr Speaker, like I indicated in my question, the people of Chief Kathumba and Chief Kawaza as of now are not visiting one another and vehicles are not passing through Kapoche Bridge because it is damaged. Are there no immediate measures that the Government is trying to put in place to ensure that the people are helped?

 

Mr Mwale: Mr Speaker, we will provide immediate measures or interventions once the assessment is done and it is supposed to be done by 15th March, 2020. The RDA has been overwhelmed by a lot of work on such bridges in provinces and so it could not immediately do the assessment. However, it has been given up to 15th March, 2020, to do the assessment. Once it does the assessment, I will be informed of what exactly has to be done in the interim and long-term.

 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

Mr Lihefu (Manyinga): Mr Speaker, the situation in Milanzi is critical. Could the hon. Minister give the time frame for assessing the bridge in Milanzi.

 

Mr Mwale: Mr Speaker, I just said that the RDA will do the assessment by 15th March. So, in four days time, the RDA will do the assessment.

 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

Ms Mwape (Mkushi North): Mr Speaker, a lot of bridges countrywide have been washed away and Kapoche Bridge is one of them. Is the ministry working together with the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU) to determine which bridges fall under it? Kapoche Bridge seems to be very urgent because people are not able to cross to the other side.

 

Mr Mwale: Mr Speaker, there is no separation between the DMMU, other ministries and the Ministry of Housing and Infrastructure Development. We work together and the DMMU provides relief. It makes sure that if people are cut-off such that they cannot visit other areas and drugs cannot be provided, it provides drugs through air transport to both sides and relief to people who are affected in such situations. The DMMU then passes on its findings or whatever money it may have to the RDA to deal with roads. The DMMU does not have engineers and it relies on the RDA and council engineers to do its work. So, we are working hand in hand with the Zambia Army, the DMMU and line ministries. There are no separate entities. We work together with everyone.

 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

Mr Nanjuwa (Mumbwa): Mr Speaker, the situation in Milanzi is similar to that in almost all parts of the country including Mumbwa Constituency. Is there any Government department undertaking an assessment countrywide to determine the number of damaged bridges so that at an opportune time within the year, the Government can work on the bridges that are being washed away?

 

Mr Mwale: Mr Speaker, in this case where we have disasters happening, Disaster Management Teams in the districts are at hand to receive information from members of the communities. Regarding Kapoche Bridge, we received a report from both the District Commissioner and the hon. Member of Parliament, and District Commissioners are part of the Disaster Management Team. So, there are teams that are already in the field that report cases to relevant authorities including the RDA, the Ministry of Works and Supply and the Zambia Army. So, the assessment is ongoing and we do not need to dispatch any extra team. As and when bridges and roads collapse, there are people on the ground who report to us and we provide interventions.

 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

Mr Ng’ambi (Chifubu): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has indicated that an assessment of Kapoche Bridge will be done by 15th March. Bearing in mind that Kapoche Bridge is an economic bridge for the people in the area who use it for their livelihood, and since the assessment will be done by 15th March, is the hon. Minister able to give the people of Kapoche the roadmap from the assessment to the implementation or the final construction of this bridge so they can know how long it will take before they can continue with their livelihood?

 

Mr Mwale: Mr Speaker, we will come up with a roadmap immediately after the assessment. We cannot do that right now because we need to know how much will be involved, the extent of the damage, whether the bridge itself is damaged, or if it is just the culverts that have to replaced and what their sizes are. We cannot determine anything until the assessment is done. However, once it is done, we will come up with a roadmap, and that is when we will know whether we will reconstruct the bridge in the shortest period of time. The cost of the bridge will determine the speed at which it can be repaired because the Ministry of Finance has to provide the resources. So, yes, the roadmap will be determined once the assessment is done.

 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

DEPLOYMENT OF ADDITIONAL POLICE OFFICERS TO MITETE DISTRICT

 

240.  Mr Mutelo (Mitete) asked the Minister of Home Affairs:

 

  1. when additional police officers will be deployed to Mitete District;
  2. what interim measures are being taken to ensure that the district is adequately policed; and
  3. when a motor vehicle will be procured to enhance operations.

 

The Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Kampyongo): Mr Speaker, Mitete is a newly created district, therefore, a police station requires to be constructed in line with its district status. The Ministry of Home Affairs, through the Zambia Police Service, will only deploy additional and permanent police officers after a police station and staff houses are constructed.

 

Sir, currently, the operations of the Zambia Police Service at Lukulu Police Station cover Mitete District. Lukulu Police Station has assigned some police officers to provide security services to Mitete District and to patrol especially border areas in Mitete as well as handle any criminal and other cases.

 

Mr Speaker, the Ministry of Home Affairs, through the Zambia Police Service, will consider allocating a motor vehicle to Mitete District to enhance police operations in the district after the motor vehicles procured under the Poly-Technology Project are delivered in the course of this year.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Mr Mutelo: Mr Speaker, firstly, I appreciate the ruling because –

 

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member, we are not talking about the ruling right now. Just get on with your business.

 

Mr Mutelo: Mr Speaker, it was on the Floor of this House where the hon. Minister said that there were police officers deployed to Mitete, but today he said that not until the police station is built, will he deploy police officers there. Which statement should we believe? Should we believe the first one or what he has stated on the Floor of the House today?

 

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, I do not have to start lecturing my colleague over language. Both statements are true. Perhaps he has not looked at the question he has posed himself because he is asking when additional police officers will be deployed to Mitete District. Last time, I told him that there are police officers in Mitete and there are currently police officers doing police work in Mitete District, as I earlier indicated to him and this august House. However, the catchword is ‘additional’, unless the hon. Member is confusing himself. I said that additional officers can only be sent to Mitete after a police station and houses, which the Ministry of Housing and Infrastructure is planning for, are built.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Mr Lihefu: Mr Speaker, as the hon. Minister is aware, Mitete borders Angola, and for police officers to manage such an area, they need adequate transport. Why has the ministry taken long to procure vehicles for Mitete District and many other newly created districts?

 

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, I appreciate the question from the hon. Member for Manyinga. Yes, I am aware that Mitete is a border district and before it became a district, it was being serviced by police officers from Lukulu District. They have continued servicing and patrolling the border areas between Mitete and the Republic of Angola, and this is happening in many other areas.

 

Sir, as to the reason we have taken long to procure vehicles, procuring motor vehicles is not a small undertaking. When procuring vehicles for the Zambia Police Service, we look at the entire country, which has more than 100 districts. So, we need to plan and mobilise resources. It is not a small undertaking, and that is why it has taken long. However, as a committed Government, we have procured the vehicles, and it takes a bit of time for them to be shipped into the country and then distributed.

 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

Mr Zimba (Chasefu): Mr Speaker, Mitete, just like Chasefu, is a newly created district. In his answer to the hon. Member for Mitete, the hon. Minister said he can only increase the number of police officers when the new police station is constructed. In the interim, can he not deploy officers to Chasefu and Mitete because there are only two officers in Chasefu, which is a big place? They are failing to manage the area and they do not have a vehicle. Is there something the hon. Minister can do before the offices are constructed because that is a long-term process?

 

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, I can tell that my dear colleague is trying to find a way to sneak in a question to deal with Chasefu.

 

Mr Speaker: Which you should ignore.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, in response to part (b) of the hon. Member for Mitete’s question, who wanted to know what temporal measures we have put in place to ensure that the district is adequately policed, I indicated that Lukulu Police Station has been deploying officers to Mitete, and there are currently police officers undertaking police work in Mitete. The only thing we are unable to do is to send additional officers in the absence of facilities and their accommodation, and that is what is obtaining on the ground.

 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

Ms Mwape (Mkushi North): Mr Speaker, the Government is working very hard as can be seen by the construction of police houses countrywide such as in Mkushi North, where it is constructing ninety-three housing units. However, we need more police officers in the country. Does the ministry plan to employ reserve police officers or form up neighbourhood watch groups to beef up operations in Mitete?

 

Mr Speaker: That is a new question.

 

Mr Mutelo: Mr Speaker, it is true that I deliberately said additional officers arising from what the hon. Minister said that there are police officers in Mitete. However, today, the hon. Minister came out clearly to say that not until the station is established will he deploy police officers to Mitete. That was the gist of the question.

 

Mr Speaker: What is your question?

 

Mr Mutelo: Mr Speaker, there are only twenty-six police officers in Lukulu. How many of those work in Mitete, because I see none? Meanwhile, we need about eighty-six officers.

 

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, I appreciate the hon. Member’s follow up question. However, I want to make it very clear, and I have said this before; I do not micromanage the Zambia Police Service operations to the point of knowing how many police officers are in Mitete today, tomorrow or the other day. So, if the hon. Member for Mitete wanted to know the number of police officers, it would have been ideal for him to craft it in his initial question.

 

Sir, I know that the number of police officers in Lukulu needs to be beefed up, and that is another matter. However, what is clear is that police officers from Lukulu Post Station have been servicing Mitete. There is no need to have arguments about that and I have always said that the ratio between the police and the country’s population is below what is required, and we are doing everything possible to beef up the number. The hon. Member for Mitete is aware of that because he has been in constant touch with me and we have discussed issues of security in Mitete District. So, it is not like he is not updated in view of the manner that he is trying to come out. However, we shall continue engaging him to make sure we provide police services to our people in Mitete.

 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister said that Mitete is being catered for by the operations of police officers from Lukulu. How do those police officers reach Mitete without the availability of substantial transport? Police officers from Lukulu operate without transport or they do not have a motor vehicle, so, how do they reach Mitete?

 

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, I appreciate the hon. Member for Kalabo Central’s follow up question. Yes, police officers in Lukulu have had logistical challenges, but that does not mean they have not been providing services to their community and surrounding communities. The Government will provide transport for the police officers in Lukulu and will enhance operations at Lukulu Police Station with additional motor transport. However, even with transport challenges, police officers at Lukulu Police Station still provide police services in Lukulu and surrounding areas including Mitete.

 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

Mr Ng’ambi: Mr Speaker, the deployment of additional police officers to Mitete speaks to the security situation in the area as well as the care for the people of Mitete. Mitete has existed from 1964 to-date, and it is only the Patriotic Front (PF) Government that decided to make it a district and to give the people of Mitete additional police officers. What message does the hon. Minister have for the people of Mitete in terms of care and security?

 

Mr Speaker: I do not think we should exert the hon. Minister in that fashion.

_______

 

BILLS

 

FIRST READING

 

THE FOOD AND NUTRITION BILL, 2020

 

The Minister of Health (Dr Chilufya): Sir, I beg to present a Bill entitled the Food and Nutrition Bill, 2020. The objects of the Bill are to:

 

  1. provide for the implementation of a national food and nutrition programme;
  2. provide for the continued existence of the National Food and Nutrition Commission and re-define its functions;
  3. re-constitute the Board of the Commission and re-define its functions;
  4. establish the Food and Nutrition Co-ordinating Committee and provide for its functions;
  5. repeal and replace the National Food and Nutrition Commission Act, 1967; and
  6. provide for matters connected with, or incidental to, the foregoing.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Mr Speaker: The Bill stands referred to the Committee on Health, Community Development and Social Services. The Committee is required to submit its report on the Bill to the House by Thursday, 26th March, 2020. Hon. Members who wish to make submissions on the Bill are free to do so within the programme of work of the Committee.

 

Thank you.

 

THE PATENTS AND COMPANIES REGISTRATION AGENCY BILL, 2020

 

The Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry (Mr Yaluma): Sir, I beg to present a Bill entitled the Patents and Companies Registration Agency Bill, 2020. The objects of the Bill are to:

 

  1. continue the existence of the Patents and Companies Registration Agency;
  2. re-constitute the Board of the Agency and provide for its functions;
  3. repeal and replace the Patents and Companies Registration Agency Act, 2010; and
  4. provide for matters connected with, or incidental to, the foregoing.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Mr Speaker: The Bill stands referred to the Committee on National Economy, Trade and Labour Matters. The Committee is required to submit its report on the Bill to the House by Thursday, 26th March, 2020. Hon. Members who wish to make submissions on the Bill are free to do so within the programme of work of the Committee.

 

Thank you.

 

THE LANDLORD AND TENANT (BUSINESS PREMISES) (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2020

 

The Minister of Local Government (Dr Banda): Mr Speaker, I beg to present a Bill entitled the Landlord and Tenant (Business Premises) (Amendment) Bill, 2020. The object of the Bill is to amend the Landlord and Tenant (Business Premises) Act so as to:

 

  1. revise the limits of the civil jurisdiction of magistrates; and
  2. provide for matters connected with, or incidental to, the foregoing.

 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

Mr Speaker: The Bill stands referred to the Committee on Local Governance, Housing and Chiefs’ Affairs. The Committee is required to submit its report on the Bill to the House by Thursday, 26th March, 2020. Hon. Members who wish to make submissions on the Bill are free to do so within the programme of work of the Committee.

 

Thank you.

 

SECOND READING

 

THE NATIONAL FORENSIC BILL, 2020

 

The Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Kampyongo): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read the second time.

 

Mr Speaker, I am profoundly grateful for this opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Second Reading of the National Forensic Bill, 2020. I wish to state from the outset that the Government recognises that the use of scientific and forensic evidence is an essential element in the administration of justice, which has now been widely adopted in law enforcement and court systems across the globe. Regrettably, in Zambia, these services are not provided professionally and adequately due to the absence of a legal framework and a weak institutional structure. Previous attempts to mitigate this inadequacy such as the establishment of the Forensic Department under the Zambia Police Service proved to be narrow in scope and depth.

 

Sir, this has partly led to the loss of confidence in the judicial system in general and the credibility of law enforcements in particular. What is even more disturbing is that the lack of regulation and professionalism in the provision of these services has led to miscarriage of justice as several criminal cases, which forensic science is able to remedy have remained, unresolved for many years in Zambia. Miscarriage of justice with respect to forensic services has mainly arisen from the following causes:

 

  1. use of faulty science in attempting to resolve cases;
  2. non-adherence to quality assurance by the practitioners; and
  3. use of inappropriate and non-validated methods of forensic procedures.

 

Mr Speaker, this state of affairs can no longer be allowed to continue under this Government. The Bill before this august House is predominantly seeking to provide for a legal framework that will ensure that forensic services are provided professionally and adequately and, more fundamentally, regulated to strengthen the criminal justice system and avert the miscarriage of justice. The Bill also proposes a more suitable and elaborate institutional framework that is wider in scope and depth.

 

Sir, specifically, the Bill proposes to establish the National Forensic Science Authority as the regulator of the practice of forensic science and forensic pathology (forensic services) in Zambia. Under this Bill, the National Forensic Science Authority would also be the only licensing entity for all providers of forensic services in the country. The practical operations of the National Forensic Science Authority will be guided by the following principles, among others:

 

  1. independence of the providers of forensic services from law enforcement agencies to guarantee transparency and accountability;
  2. strict regulation of the practices to compel providers of forensic services adhere to the standards prescribed in law such as validation methods and techniques, crime scene management and death investments, among others;
  3. provision of oversight on all practitioners and providers of forensic services; and
  4. provision of forensic and scientific evidence in the courts of law.

 

Mr Speaker, the Bill also proposes to establish the Office of the State Forensic Pathologist and the National Forensic Science and Biometrics Department as public providers of forensic services. The aim is to expand the provision of these services, which are currently not adequately provided.

 

Sir, Zambia now needs to modernise its criminal investigations and prosecution systems to the 21st Century standards and catch up with its peers in the administration of justice. Therefore, it is up to this august House to enact legislation required to significantly alter the landscape of criminal investigations and prosecution in the country.

 

Mr Speaker, the enactment of this Bill will certainly strengthen the justice system and bring back the confidence and trust in law enforcement agencies. The National Forensic Bill will undoubtedly improve co-ordination in the provision of forensic services and bring the use of scientific evidence in resolving criminal cases in the country. Thus, I urge the House to support this piece of legislation.

 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

Dr Malama (Kanchibiya): Mr Speaker, pursuant to its terms of reference as set out under Standing Order No. 157 (2), the Committee was tasked to consider the National Forensic Bill, No. 1 of 2020 referred to it on Thursday, 20th February, 2020. In order to fully appreciate the ramifications of the Bill, the Committee sought both oral and written submissions from various stakeholders, including the hon. Minister of Home Affairs who appeared before it.

 

Sir, let me state from the outset that all, but one, of the stakeholders who submitted before the Committee welcomed the Bill. They contended that the Bill was long overdue considering that for a long time, forensic services which are an essential element of any effective and professional law enforcement and justice system had been provided without a legal framework.

 

Mr Speaker, one of the most important developments in the delivery of justice in this day and age is the increased reliance on scientific and forensic evidence. It is noteworthy there have been efforts in the recent past in Zambia to enhance the use of validated methods and techniques in the identification, collection, transportation, preservation, storage, custody and interpretation of evidential material before courts.

 

Sir, there have also been efforts to provide for a reliable, accountable and credible crime scene management and death investigation system for legal purposes. This is what gave rise to the creation of the Forensic Department in the Ministry of Home Affairs in 2012. The Committee learned, however, that these efforts have been relatively narrow in scope and depth resulting into the miscarriage of justice and loss of public confidence in the judicial system or the criminal justice system.

 

Mr Speaker, let me now turn to some of the concerns raised by stakeholders and shared by the Committee. Some stakeholders noted that there was an overlap in the provisions of the proposed Bill and the Health Professions Act No. 24 of 2009 with regard to regulation of the practice of forensic science and forensic pathology and the licensing of forensic service providers. They noted that according to section 49(1)(a) of the Health Professions Act No. 24 of 2009, the council was expected to regulate members of the health profession and regulate the professional conduct of health practitioners. This matter was brought to the attention of the hon. Minister of Home Affairs who explained that there was no conflict or overlap in the functions of the two pieces of legislation. He added that whereas the Health Professions Council of Zambia regulated the conduct of health professionals, including pathologists, it could not regulate the chain of custody or evidence as it related to the techniques of identification, collection, transportation, preservation, storage, custody and interpretation of evidential material before the courts of law, which the Bill intended to regulate. While it notes the hon. Minister’s intervention, the Committee recommends that the two pieces of legislation be harmonised for avoidance of conflict of interest.

 

Sir, the other matter is related to the functions of the authority. The Committee notes that in order for the authority to be in tandem with best practices, one of its functions should be to develop and/or adopt internationally recognised protocols of testing and examining methods, and to maintain a forensic database. The administration and maintenance of a national forensic database will provide Deoxyribonucleic Acid (DNA) profiles in the investigation of crime. The Committee, therefore, recommends that this function should be provided for at Clause 4. Further, the Committee recommends that DNA samples should be collected from suspects at the time of arrest.

 

Mr Speaker, Clause 20 of the Bill provides for instances when the authority may suspend or cancel a licence. The House will note that under Clause 20(1)(a), a licence could be suspended or cancelled in instances of obtaining a licence by fraud, misrepresentation or concealment of a material fact. However, Clause 20(3) goes further to provide that a licence would not be suspended if the licensee took remedial measures to the satisfaction of the authority within a stipulated period. The Committee agrees with stakeholders who contended that matters of fraud and misrepresentation or any measures to obtain a licence with dishonest means were criminal in nature and should not, therefore, be provided with an option of being restored or remedial action taken. The Committee, therefore, recommends that Clause 20(3) must be redrafted to clearly stipulate that the cancellation of a licence under Clause (1)(a) invalidates the licence and no remedial measure should be taken by the licensee to remedy it. The provision should therefore be deleted completely.

 

Sir, Clause 30 provides for appeals. Stakeholders observed that Clause 30(2) does not provide for a time frame within which a person aggrieved with the decision of the hon. Minister may appeal to the High Court. In this regard, the Committee recommends that thirty days be provided as the appeal period.

 

Mr Speaker, in conclusion, the Committee wishes to express its gratitude to you for granting it the opportunity to scrutinise the National Forensic Bill No. 1 of 2020 and to all the stakeholders who assisted the Committee to consider the Bill. The Committee also wishes to thank the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly for the support rendered to it throughout its deliberations.

 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

Mr Ngulube (Kabwe Central): Mr Speaker, thank you for according me this opportunity to debate the Bill on its Second Reading.

 

Sir, when most of us hear the word ‘forensic’, it sounds very foreign to our ears and it sounds like it is English that we have never heard before. However, in practice, the people who carry out criminal investigations, such as the police and investigative wings like the Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC), require certainty before they present suspects in court. So, this Bill will help us deal with some of the difficult questions that judges, investigators, lawyers and everybody normally grapple with.

 

Mr Speaker, I am aware that if there is a fight and one of the persons fighting has blood on his shirt, normally, the question that arises in court is: Whose blood was it? If he says he was defending himself, the question will be: Is it your blood or that of the person who assaulted you? Normally, questions of such a nature just die a natural death because we appear not to have enough laws or mechanisms for establishing, for instance, the owner of that blood. If this Bill comes into effect, it will be very easy for our brothers in investigative wings to establish either through Deoxyribonucleic Acid (DNA) or other mechanisms, for instance, the owner of hair found in a bathtub where a person claims to have been attacked. If the accused person was at the scene, investigation wings will use DNA to prove if the hair samples are for the accused person.

 

Sir, innocent men are currently going to prison because there is no way of establishing the truth. We just use the balance of convenience and think that a certain man is guilty. However, our colleagues in advanced countries who have these laws and advanced forensics are able to acquit people even after they were convicted many years ago. They are able to find evidence. If they discover that the accused person or convict was not the right person to go to jail, they let them go home.

 

Mr Speaker, I am aware that nowadays, we have bank robberies and the police have picked up guns and all sorts of weapons, which need to be tested. For example, there is what is called contamination. When there is a robbery at a bank, the police will come and lift fingerprints and check whose they could be and based on the fingerprints, they could identify who the suspect is. If the suspect was a bank employee, the police can lift fingerprints from all the bank employees and establish that the fingerprints match the fingerprints of such and such a person. However, we now have what is called contamination, where when there are fingerprints at a scene, the police also come and put their own fingerprints on the crime scene such that it becomes difficult to identify the owner of the fingerprints. There is also a process called elimination, and here in Zambia, I think we use physical elimination. However, using forensic science, it is possible to remove the fingerprints of the police and the bank employees who come for work and touch the doors every day and remain with the fingerprints of the suspect. So, this Bill will make our lives very easy.

 

Mr Speaker, I am aware that there are a lot of times where soil samples have been picked from the clothes of a suspect. For instance, a man could say he has never been to Chongwe but the police may say he was in Chongwe. If they search that person and dust his clothes, they can check for soil because as we walk, we attract a lot of dust and powder. The police are able to analyse the soil from the crime scene and compare with the soil samples dusted from a suspect’s clothes and can confirm whether he was at the crime scene or not. There are also instances when someone says he was just a witness and was not involved in a crime. So, forensic science is very technical. If we do not have a good framework for it, we will not advance this kind of evidence. I know that our judges require that when a witness comes to testify, the police must come with evidence and prove something and not just say that they heard from people that a person was involved in a certain crime and so they picked him up. So, we want the police and the investigative wings to pinpoint that based on these facts, they established that A was found at a crime scene and that such and such a thing was done and these are the results.

 

Sir, I know that there are what we call inquests. When a person dies and people do not know the cause of his/her death, they would like to establish how the person died. There are many ways in which the death of person can be established. Pathologists and others rely on a legal framework to make sure that they do not get results that will put an innocent man behind bars.

 

Mr Speaker, as I conclude, allow me to state that this is a very technical subject and by virtue of it being very technical, I expect all hon. Members of Parliament to support it. As we head towards 2021, the cadres, especially those from one political party who are fond of carrying weapons, should be aware that this country is moving forward.

 

Mr Mweetwa: Yes, forward!

 

Mr Ngulube: I know that they think they are going forward but let me tell them that the world is moving forward. Using forensic science, the police will identify who fired a gun during campaigns because science will now show which hand held that weapon. They will arrest many law breakers because we see the firing of guns during campaigns and people threatening each other. The only time they accept that the person who was involved was their member is when that person dies and they even mention his name. However, this kind of political violence, which has now become part of our problems, can only be resolved if forensic science is supported.

 

Mr Speaker, allow me to state that days are numbered for those people who are fond of sponsoring violence and commit crimes which they think will not be detected. Now that this Bill is being debated before this House, people who commit crimes and run away thinking that they will never be identified because there were no eye witnesses must now begin to think twice. This is because the law will soon catch up with them, and I am aware of what is going on. From gassing innocent citizens, they are pretending that there is a mealie meal shortage. They are now sending innocent people to Shoprite to scramble for mealie meal, and they take videos to show the world that there is a mealie meal shortage. Let me warn them that crime does not pay. It is also not possible that every time they start doing something, people should just be looking at them. Their days are numbered and the day will come when they will have to account for all their sins.

 

Sir, with those few remarks – at the risk of being a bad boy; today I was good. I think I have not caused any harm to anyone and I debated the Bill.

 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, I wish to convey my sincere gratitude to the Committee on National Security and Foreign Affairs, and I appreciate the Chairperson of the Committee, Hon. Dr Malama, whose wisdom as a doctor and former Inspector-General of Police, we benefited from immensely. I also thank Hon. Tutwa Ngulube for his debate and the practical challenges that he alluded to in his discourse. I also thank all hon. Colleagues for the support they have rendered. I know that in silence, they have given overwhelming support to this very important Bill.

 

Sir, I have taken note of the various issues which have been raised in the Committee’s report and those highlighted by the Chairperson and Hon. Tutwa Ngulube in his debate. Although I responded to the several issues that have been raised when I appeared before the Committee, as indicated in its report, I wish to take liberty to respond to some of them.

 

Mr Speaker, let me start with the perceived duplicity between the functions of the Health Professions Council of Zambia and those of the National Forensic Science Authority. Under Clause 4(2), Subsection (a), my submission is that all pathologists are medical doctors who specialise in the forensic field. This entails that they are legally expected to register with the Health Professions Council of Zambia as health practitioners. In this Bill, there is an appropriate cross reference to the Health Professions Act in the definition of ‘medical doctor’. Forensic pathologists, on the other hand, may not necessarily stem from the medical background and thus registration with the Health Professions Council of Zambia may not apply to them. Examples of such forensic practitioners include engineers, physicists, chemists, mathematicians or statisticians. It is, therefore, my considered view that the definitions of ‘forensic pathologist’ and ‘forensic analyst’ in the proposed Bill are adequate and need no further refinement.

 

Sir, on the proposal by the Committee to amend the definition of ‘mass disaster’ under Clause 2, my view is that this is non-controversial and it captures the essence of the definition. I, therefore, embrace the proposed amendment.

 

Mr Speaker, the recommendation to provide for the maintenance of the national forensic database by the National Forensic Science Authority under Clause 6 of the Bill has been considered. However, our proposal is that it is more ideal that these databases are managed and stored by respective laboratories. To guarantee accountability and responsibility, it is envisaged that the storage and usage of these databases will be provided for in the planned Forensic Procedures Act or an amendment to the Criminal Procedures Act intended to be tabled before this august House soon after this Bill is enacted. The role of the authority will then be to ensure that these databases are not misused or mismanaged.

 

Sir, on the need for the Bill to empower inspectors to seize and detain any materials relevant to an investigation under Clause 11 (2), I wish to inform this august House that under this Act, inspectors will not be investigating cases. It is a standard practice that inspectors do not obtain search warrants to conduct their work. In fact, their work is conducted in consultation with their clients.

 

Finally, on the issue of striking out the proposed Clause 11 (4) (b), which provides for sanctions when a person refuses to give an inspector reasonable assistance and on the time frame within which an aggrieved person can appeal to the hon. Minister under Clause 30 (2), we are guided by similar provisions in several laws which this august House enacted in the past.

 

Mr Speaker, once again, I would like to sincerely thank the Chairperson of your Committee and all the hon. Members of the Committee for the wonderful interaction we had when I appeared before them. I also want to thank you, Sir, for the time you allocated to the Committee when considering this very important memorable Bill. This Bill is straightforward and I recommend it to this august House.

 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

 

Committed to a committee of the Whole House.

 

Committee on Wednesday, 18th March, 2020.

 

_______

 

MOTION

 

MOTION OF THANKS ON HIS EXCELLENCY THE PRESIDENT’S ADDRESS ON THE APPLICATION OF NATIONAL VALUES AND PRINCIPLES

 

(Debate resumed)

 

Evg. Shabula (Itezhi-tezhi): Mr Speaker, when the House adjourned yesterday, I was talking about tribalism, which is referred to in paragraph 48 of the President’s Speech. I totally agree with His Excellency the President that tribalism should not be our language in this country because it divides the nation and creates a lot of problems for us. However, I just want all of us to understand who a tribalist is and what his/her characteristics are, so that we do not fall in the same trap. According to some readings, a tribalist has got certain characteristics, which we should not have. A tribalist feels superior and feels that he/she can do great things and that brings about pride. So, when we begin to feel that we are better than other people, we look down upon them; instead of looking up to God, we look down upon them like they are nothing.

 

Sir, tribalists also have a characteristic of inferiority and sometimes they just say something in order to show that they are there and to be noticed. So, these are some of the things that we need to understand about tribalists. The other characteristic is dominance. They would want to dominate and control. If it is a political party, they would want to remain in perpetual power so that they control others.

 

Mr Speaker, the other thing which we must understand is that a tribal person is greedy. He wants certain things to be brought to him, to gain control and to live a better life. The other characteristic, which is the last on my list, is poor judgement. A person who is tribal in most cases has poor judgement over so many things because tribalism dwarfs his/her mind, in that he/she will not grow or expand and, therefore, cannot mix or work with other people.

 

Sir, I thank the First Republican President, Dr Kaunda, because I was not only educated in the Southern Province but I had an opportunity to go to other provinces. I went to Nchelenge Secondary School in Luapula Province, which is not in the Southern Province, and we were taught how to relate and live with people. Today, I can tell this House how the people of Luapula Province took care of me whilst I was a student there. As a result of that, I have learnt to respect other people because of what I saw in Luapula. So, I urge this nation to heed the warning in the area of tribalism, which we should do away with.

 

Mr Speaker, the other point I would like to bring out is what was brought up concerning the cleanliness of our cities in paragraph 34 of the President’s Speech. I think this is a plan that we have as a country. We learnt this idea from other countries, but there are certain things that we have not done. We have not understood the methods of how they reached to be where they are. Let me give an example. How many people trade on Lumumba and Chachacha roads and how many public toilets do we have on those roads? How do we maintain cleanliness in such a situation and where do they go when they want to help themselves? A survey was taken and it was found that many people use chibuku containers to relieve themselves and they throw them anyhow.

 

Sir, this is an indication that the Patriotic Front (PF) Government did not prepare itself for this noble cause of cleaning the city. There are no plans to indicate that the Government ordered waste trucks, trolleys, brooms or any cleaning materials. They are not there, yet people are expected to go and clean. Even in our homes, we fail to use certain detergents or creams because of the economical problems that we have and we use most of the money that we find to buy food. According to His Excellency the President’s observation, this plan has not materialised, but however it is just a bit. I must say that this project is going to die a natural death because we did not plan for it. If we want it to succeed, it is important for us to plan and look at what we need to do and what we need to put in place.

 

Mr Speaker, the other thing I would like to talk about is the issue of political violence. I realised that even His Excellency the President has joined us in mourning this barbaric act such that he also actually complained. As the head of the nation, he is supposed to order that from today on, this should not happen. However, this requires action and for men and women to be mobilised for them to move and implement this. How long has His Excellency the President been mourning with us about political violence or just violence in general? However, whatever he said in the past has not materialised. So many people have been injured and died. To-date, those who killed, slaughtered or shot others have not been arrested. They are roaming the streets, yet we say that the long arm of the law will catch up with them. When is it going to catch up with them? It is no longer long; it has been shortened by the system.

 

Sir, I urge the Government to balance the implementation of the law. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. If it is good for the Opposition hon. Members of Parliament, it should also be good for the PF. We are setting a generation of warriors so that our country will begin to fight each other. I do not think that I would be a happy Member of Parliament if I came into this office after having slaughtered, killed or maimed somebody. I would not be happy to sit in this House because of shedding somebody’s blood. The nation is expecting His Excellency the President to be candid and pragmatic, and to move forward and ensure that the law he puts in place works for the good of the people.

 

Mr Speaker, for instance, why would police officers begin shooting at a crowd and picking pupils? You do not do that because police officers are supposed to protect life and property. There is no way they can do that, unless there is something wrong because even those who are called trigger happy do not do it that way. Furthermore, we have heard about stray bullets. There is nothing like stray bullets because if one does not point in a certain direction and does not squeeze the trigger, the bullet will not come out. So, it can only come out when one aims and squeezes the trigger unless if someone did not do field work, then he is likely to miss the target or the bull’s eye and it will be a stray bullet. If that is the problem, then, we need to retrain our police officers so that they can do the correct job because many people have died at the hands of our police officers. That is why many of us doubt whether some of the police officers whom we see are real police officers or are PF cadres in police uniforms.

 

Hon. Government Members: Question!

 

Evg. Shabula: Therefore, it is important for them to understand that they are there to save life and property. However, if they have failed, they should resign.

 

Mr Speaker, the other thing I want to talk about is the issue of gassing. From pages 13 to 15, His Excellency the President indicated that the gassing incidents have taken three months and over this period, more than fifty people have died. When I read this statement, the question I asked myself is: When this problem started in Chingola, where was His Excellency the President? Where was the voice of His Excellency the President?

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Evg. Shabula: When this problem started to move like a wave and spread to other cities, the question I still asked myself was: Where was His Excellency the President and there are no answers. The problem then spread to rural areas where there were people who did not understand the science of gasses, how they move and work and the gassers began to attack even those who had perfumes, including tins of boom or targets. They became the target of attacks because there was nobody to explain to them what was happening in the country. The question is: Where was His Excellency the President? If His Excellency the President was in this nation, why did he not direct his officers to act?

 

Sir, the other question we should ask ourselves is: What is the state of our intelligence service? This is because they are supposed to know before anything happens. They should be proactive so that we do not find ourselves in trouble. This simply means that there is a problem, just like the problem we have with police officers in terms of shooting. One thing we must understand is that when we see soldiers shooting and killing other people, it is a sign of frustration. They are frustrated. They are not taken care of by the Government.

 

Hon. Government Members: Question!

 

Evg. Shabula: Mr Speaker, I want to tell the people that they should not worry about what is happening in this nation because there is a Government that is coming that will be concerned about their concerns and is going to mourn with them. I expected His Excellency the President to go to the funeral houses and to sit and mourn with the people, but he never did that. I expected His Excellency the President to stand up and announce a national day of mourning, but this was not done. Where was he?

 

Sir, the people who work with His Excellency the President and rub shoulders with him should tell him that the people of Itezhi-tezhi are asking where he was for him to come out after thirty days because he even said that the gassing problem started about three months ago. Three months is thirty by three, which is ninety days. However, His Excellency the President was nowhere and we call it invisible because he was invisible. When somebody is invisible, it means he cannot be seen. So, we could not see him.

 

Mr Speaker, we are going to bring a President who cares for the lives of the people.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Evg. Shabula: We are going to bring a President who will see to it that there is no shortage of mealie meal.  We are going to bring a President who will do away with political violence. We are bringing a President who is going to ensure that there is equality and that tribalism is gone and that we are one. At the moment, this nation is divided and we need to work together. Together, we stand, but divided we fall. We must be united for the sake of mother Zambia.

 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mweetwa (Choma Central): Mr Speaker, thank you for giving the good people of Choma Central Constituency an opportunity, on the Floor of this House, to debate the President’s Speech that was delivered by His Excellency the President, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, last week on Friday.

 

Sir, as I begin to dissect this speech, allow me to put it on record on the Floor of this House, my gratitude and that of the United Party for National Development (UPND) and its leader, Mr Hakainde Hichilema, to the women of Zambia for demonstrating unity and love on Women’s Day. This is as it should be. We are one people; we must walk the talk. Following the success of the women on Women’s Day, I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate the Zambia National Women’s Football Team that has qualified to the Olympics, and this is something worth celebrating. When men are failing to go to the Africa Cup of Nations, women are going to the Olympics. This is the value of woman power.

 

Mr Speaker, this afternoon, my discourse is based on what is happening on the ground, the actions of President Lungu and the Patriotic Front (PF) and not what he came to say. We will judge President Lungu for what is happening on the ground and what he is doing, and not what he came to say. On that score, allow me to acknowledge some of the beautiful contents in the President’s Speech and I attribute this to the good work of the technocrats who drafted and crafted these ideas for the President to come and read. Remember that last time, I graded the President’s Speech three out of ten. However, when I looked at the ideas in the speech, I remembered that in school, when a teacher knows you and you present a good essay which does not befit your intellectual capacity, he will not grade you but will call you to be disciplined for copying other people’s ideas.

 

Sir, if the contents of the speech were true, Zambia would have been a better country. Leaders should stop misinforming the nation and presenting falsehoods. The statement was full of falsehoods. That day, I sat in a state of shock, listening to President Lungu and I wondered if it was the President I live with in Zambia. At that moment, I developed a fictitious story in my mind and I thought about how it could look for a known thief or sinner to be found reading the Holy Bible.

 

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member for Choma Central, resume your seat.

 

I am following your debate very closely. One of the rules of etiquette in the House is to avoid insinuations, aspersions and making reflections on characters of persons. There are issues here. I expect not only you but everyone else coming on to debate to be objective and factual. You indicated that you would examine things on the ground, and I was looking forward to you doing that. I am wondering what those things are but certainly, they are not insinuations and aspersions. We can read insinuations and aspersions. They are very clear. You may want to disguise them, but they are still discernable. So, veer off from insinuations and reflections on character and deal with issues.

 

You may continue.

 

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Speaker, I shall proceed on my trajectory and analyse the speech the way it was presented. The speech has some good ideas but they do not represent the PF. There is a clear departure from those ideas on the ground. What is happening and what President Lungu said here are different. Let us stop coming to this House just to pass time. Let us talk facts.

 

Mr Speaker, at page 25, President Lungu spoke about democracy. In a democracy, everyone must be allowed to participate. I also remembered that President Lungu was supposed to report progress about many things. I shall demonstrate that the speech was a self-admittance of failure in the implementation of the application of national values and principles. When President Lungu was talking about democracy, I thought he was going to admit that his party, the PF, is a violent party, which has reduced the political space in ways more than one. Not too long ago –

 

Mr Ngulube: On a point of order, Sir.

 

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

 

Mr Ngulube: Mr Speaker, thank you for this opportunity to rise on a point of order. You have just guided the hon. Member for Choma Central and we all know the rules of the House. One of the rules of this House is to be relevant in our debate. Since he wants to accuse the PF of violence, he should also be honest enough to mention that it was not the PF that chopped and maimed people in Namwala. It is not the PF that has been chopping people all over the areas where there were by-elections in the UPND strongholds. Is he, therefore, in order to mislead this House that the PF is a violent party, when we know that everywhere in their strongholds where there are by-elections, there is always violence, while in the PF strongholds, you will never hear that there was violence.

 

Sir, I need your serious ruling.

 

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member for Kabwe Central and the House at large, this is a debate, and in a debate, especially in a democracy, there are different views and perceptions on the same subject. I would not like to ban points of order in this particular debate, and I am very slow to do that. One of the values in a democratic dispensation is tolerance and patience, and I have constantly referred to these virtues. From where I sit and the office I occupy, I see a great deal of intolerance of each other’s views. Let us be measured and calm in our debate. We are not at war; we just want to consolidate our democracy here. So, if you have a different point of view, hon. Member for Kabwe Central, at an appropriate juncture, you can present it. If you have not yet debated, you will be given a chance, or your colleagues will be given a chance to respond to what your colleague is saying. These interjections are taking away your precious time to debate. I should not be speaking as long as I am. This is your show; respect and tolerate each other. I would even venture and say, love each other. Love one another. Even in your debate, demonstrate love.

 

Continue, hon. Member for Choma Central.

 

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Speaker, when as leaders, instead of attending to serious things, you are joking – that is why the PF will be voted out of power in 2021.

 

Hon. Government Members: Question!

 

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Speaker, I was saying that we have just come out of a series of by-elections in this country. In Sesheke, PF thugs were disciplined by the police and they were found with a hoard of offensive weapons but to date, none of those thugs has been arrested. Instead, the police officers who were trying to be professional have been retired in national interest. How can people participate in a democracy where a ruling party introduces violence with no shame at a by-election at a place which is as peaceful as Sesheke?

 

It is a dictate of democracy that you must leave when you run out of ideas. As a ruling party, you cannot be seen to be doing things that are contrary to what you are saying. This country has become that of lawlessness under the PF, where cadres can be stronger than the police and President Lungu then comes to say that everyone must participate, but how? These are the things I refer to as deception. I do not want leaders to be lying to the nation.

 

Mr Speaker: Hon. –

 

Mr Mweetwa: I withdraw the word “lying”. We do not want leaders to be misinforming the nation.

 

Mr Speaker: Resume your seat.

 

Not long ago, I counselled you to avoid insinuations and reflections. The people who designed rules anticipated all these kind of things. The same points can be made in a very objective and impersonal manner without casting aspersions. The opinion you hold where you stand is not gospel truth. Do not treat it as gospel truth. You can give room for different opinions on the subject, but you can still make your points. You may continue.

 

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Speaker, it is in the public domain and it is gospel truth that the PF cadres were beaten by the police and found with pangas and guns. It is also gospel truth that the PF cadres in Kaoma caused the death of a United Party for National Development (UPND) supporter, Lawrence Banda.

 

Hon. Government Members: Question!

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mweetwa: It is also gospel truth that there was untold violence in Chilubi. In addition to violence, there were leaders of the PF in Chilubi who began –

 

Mr Ng’onga: On a point of order, Sir.

 

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member for Kaputa, resume your seat. Continue, hon. Member for Choma Central.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Speaker, it is gospel truth that leaders of the PF in Chilubi were engaged in a dramatic performance of hate speech, divisive language and tribal talk in order to win an election. How can they come and say everyone must participate when they are saying that certain people must not be allowed to come here and contest? Who do they want to deceive?

 

Mr Speaker, it is gospel truth that not too long ago, the Law Association of Zambia (LAZ) organised a discussion forum at Intercontinental Hotel and thugs were unleashed to disrupt that discussion forum. To date, none of those thugs has been arrested, yet the police have video footage of the people who did that. Any sensible human being would discern that if they were UPND cadres, they would have been rounded up and arrested. Only somebody who does not think properly can continue making such irresponsible comments that are reprehensible at a time when we have national problems that leaders must confront head-on. Let us not make leadership a game of jokes and pass unnecessary comments when the nation is hurting because you are enjoying. The nation wants answers. How are we going to end violence? That is what the nation wants to hear.

 

Mr Speaker, one of the things I thought the President was going to talk about in line with the issue of promoting democracy is the opening up the public media for the Opposition to have a platform to have a voice to the people and sell its message. There should be a contest of ideas and not physical confrontation where people want to use pangas because the PF cannot compete with ideas.

 

Mr Speaker, I expected the President to promote the media, and open the public media to everyone, but what have we seen of late? The Sunday Interview on Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC) is a platform for the PF to do propaganda, insult people and accuse people who are not given a platform to respond. What type of leaders are you? Bad leaders! Bad Government; the PF.

 

Ms Kapata interjected.

 

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Speaker, how can you have a country of injustice where people trade in mukula?

 

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member, give me a moment.

 

Hon. Minister of Lands and Natural Resources, surely, how do we transact business like this?

 

Continue, hon. Member for Choma Central.

 

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Speaker, I was talking about how the public media is being abused by the PF, and this is a party which professed that it was going to turn around the way the public media is governed in this country when it was in the Opposition. However, they made the Sunday Interview a platform for the PF to do party propaganda and they are leaders without shame. They call themselves leaders and expect right-thinking people to respect them as good leaders, but it does not work like that. We have a country to govern and hand over to the next generation and this is our time to do what is right.

 

ZNBC is not yours; it is for all of us. You cannot hire political mercenaries to go and attack people on tribalism but not give a platform to others to respond. Even criminals are given a chance to answer in court. You are bad leaders. That is what you are.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Speaker, –

 

Dr Kopulande: On a point of order, Sir.

 

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

 

Dr Kopulande: Mr Speaker, I regret to rise on a point of order while my brother is debating. However, I believe my brother will remember that we had a discussion over the weekend concerning a report in which he was quoted in the Zambia Daily Mail of Monday, 9th March, 2020, where he made a very conciliatory statement that was founded on the principle that there has been a realisation in their party that they must be party to national building, rather than national divisions. I sent a message to the hon. Member saying that if he was rightly quoted, then, this is the leadership this country needs and he responded in the affirmative.

 

Mr Speaker, is he now in order to come and debate in such a divisive fashion like he is doing right now? He is misleading the House when he had demonstrated that he and his colleagues have now changed the narrative towards national building. He was, in fact, seen dancing with Patriotic Front (PF) women during the International Women’s Day celebrations. I need your serious ruling to clear this contradiction on his part.

 

Mr Speaker: First and foremost, I am not privy to what was divulged in the discussion between yourself and the hon. Member for Choma Central. So, whether or not the hon. Member for Choma Central is contradicting himself, I would not really be in a position to determine that point. Even if I was supplied with sufficient and cogent material, for argument’s sake, that can only be a reflection on a person who is shifting.

 

Hon. Members, I know that you have the freedom of speech, and as presiding officers, we are very slow to restrain your freedom of speech. Nonetheless, there are rules of etiquette and I have repeatedly said that we should endeavour to exercise respect for one another. I know it is a challenge for some Hon. Members of this House to exercise respect for one another, but that is what is expected. As presiding officers, we are also very slow to curtail debates, but the bottom line is that you are required to be civil to one another.

 

Hon. Member for Choma Central, you may continue.

 

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Speaker, as I proceed, the things I am saying are for national building. If we did not love our colleagues in the PF, we would not have been telling them the truth, except that some people are immune to the truth. They want something sugar-coated for them to be happy and they will say someone debated well because he/she did not tell them the truth. What I am doing is good debating. Truth should be told so that you can change your behaviour and do better because it is bad political behaviour and that is why I am here representing the people of Choma.

 

Sir, I thought President Lungu would have taken the opportunity to give the finality in terms of the timetable on the national question, which is vexing our citizens on the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill No.10. However, he did not, and people were expectant and that was a lost opportunity. He went on to cite a few things of what the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill No.10 intends to bring. Instead of going straight to controversial issues so that his position can be known, he started skating around as if he is not a President.

 

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member for Choma Central, withdraw that.

 

Mr Mweetwa: I said ‘as if’, Sir.

 

Mr Speaker: Withdraw that statement.

 

Mr Mweetwa: I withdraw the statement, but what can I replace it with?

 

Mr Speaker: There is nothing to replace it with. He is just the President; that is all.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Speaker, I was extremely disappointed by the President’s failure to deal with that national question.

 

Sir, let me move to page 27 of the speech, where the President identified how apathy is a problem, without telling the nation its cause. I thought the President should have been magnanimous enough to say people are now shunning elections because of violence which is associated with elections, especially by-elections. I thought he should have come out and admitted that it is failure on his part as Commander-in-Chief not to ensure that the rule of law takes place and there is non-discrimination in the application of the Public Order Act, unlike the drama we saw, where the Government announces a ban on political meetings on the Copperbelt, but the following day an hon. Minister goes to hold a rally. What circus is that?

 

Mr Speaker, I expected the President to tell the nation the truth. The truth is that when you see people stop going to vote, it means they have lost confidence in the Government because of the failure to deliver according to the election promises that were made. Sonta epo wa bomba.

 

Mr Speaker: Meaning what?

 

Mr Mweetwa: Meaning, show what you have done.

 

You went to Chilubi and were told that a distance of 150 km from Luwingu to Chilubi takes more than five hours because of the bad state of the road and that is why they would not vote for you. That is why you resorted to tribalism, hate speech and division because you were under pressure.

 

Mr Speaker, from now on, mark the PF. When they run out of ideas, they resort to tribal talk, hate speech and dividing people. They are tired; …

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mweetwa: … they have no good ideas anymore for this country. Their main manifesto now is dividing the country, so that they remain in power. Fortunately, they are not.

 

Mr Speaker, His Excellency the President even went on to identify alcoholism and deteriorating morals, but why are many young people found in bars? It is because of dwindling opportunities for education and lack of entrepreneurial activities. Where has the youth empowerment and Constituency Development Fund (CDF) gone?

 

Mr Speaker, when you have a failed Government, morals begin to deteriorate because people have no gainful and meaningful things to indulge themselves in other than to go and drink. Imagine what would happen if the PF was given another five years. PF is a party of gassing citizens.

 

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member for Choma Central, can you withdraw that.

 

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Speaker, I withdraw and thank you for your guidance.

 

Mr Speaker: What have you withdrawn?

 

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Speaker, I have withdrawn the statement that the PF is a party of gassing citizens. I have not said that they are the ones.

 

Mr Speaker: Resume your seat.

 

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Sir.

 

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

 

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, I have been trying to follow the hon. Member’s debate and today he seems to be very unusual and I would like to get the Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC) to come and do some examinations.

 

Laughter

 

Sir, the point of order –

 

Mr Speaker: Hon. Minister, can you withdraw that.

 

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, I withdraw that statement.

 

Mr Speaker, my point of order has been necessitated by the unusual stature and nature in which the hon. Member is debating because we in this august House know him. I know he has withdrawn part of his debate regarding the activities that have been going on. However, this gentleman being a former police officer knows what a failed state means.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Order!

 

The time was 1640 hours, but Mr Speaker allowed Mr Kampyongo to proceed with his point of order.

 

Mr Speaker: No, continue.

 

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, is he in order to insinuate in this august House – he is seated there enjoying the rights to rant in the manner he is doing –

 

Hon. UPND Members: Ranting?

 

Mr Kampyongo: I withdraw that.

 

Mr Speaker, is he is order to do cross country debate just because he knows that he is at liberty and can annoy people out there and still enjoy his rights? Is the hon. Member in order to insinuate and declare that this nation is a failed state, when we as hon. Members, together with you, have this Parliament as a functional arm of Government, and indeed other arms of the Government functioning properly?

 

Mr Speaker, I seek your serious ruling.

 

Mr Speaker: I mentioned earlier on that this is a debate. There are different points of views on different subjects. Some of the statements that are being made are very caustic. However, being a debate, hon. Minister, you will also have an opportunity at an appropriate juncture to respond to the issues being raised, and to also explain what a failed state is, in your understanding. That is what a debate is all about. So, I cannot proscribe the use of certain terminologies and whether they are properly understood or not, is another issue, but that is part of the debate.

 

Business was suspended from 1642 hours until 1700 hours.

 

[MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

 

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Speaker, before business was suspended, I was almost winding up and as I do so, I would like to remind myself that my debate on the Floor of the House is inspired by the realisation that bad people are not just those who do bad, but those who watch others do bad and that is why I tell my hon. Colleagues in the PF to do what is right.

 

Madam Speaker, we now live in very strange moments. I think that the Presidential Address on national values and principles came at the right time when the nation is in a state of disbelief and we had the entire PF supporters in Muchinga Province matching against an hon. Minister over issues of land. What is this?

 

Madam Speaker, we have issues of gassing in this country, and for the first time in fifty-seven years, the whole nation has been gassed. Further, there were allegations on social media that some political leaders went to get supernatural powers so that they remain in power. So, these things are disturbing the people of Zambia. In addition to that confusion, mealie meal prices are now rising. We, therefore, look up to God to redeem this country in 2021.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Fube (Chilubi): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving the people of Chilubi the opportunity to debate the Motion on the very important speech that the Head of State gave to this House.

 

Madam Speaker, allow me to start by quoting a gallant man called Mahatma Gandhi who said that if you want to see change, be the change that you want to see, and there is another saying that an eye for eye will make the whole world go blind.

 

Madam Speaker, I will address the issue of tribalism, elections as well as the national values that His Excellency the President catalogued, especially on page 9. We are in the situation that we are in from my standpoint because of two things. We have too much negative energy in the nation and we lack sobriety. We lack sobriety in that most of the time, when we want to debate a national issue of importance, we are polarised in such a manner that we always attach political affiliations such as tribe.

 

Madam Speaker, to me, there is a difference between tribal utterances and practicing tribalism. I will try to qualify this not going by the dictionary definitions, but by using practices that I have observed in the nation, especially in the political arena. Tribalism is like having elections like the ones we had in Mbabala in 2000 and in Chilubi in February, 2020, and we have three candidates coming from the same tribe which is Tonga. Please, hon. Members should not be supersensitive when I mention the Tonga tribe. I love this tribe and it belongs to Zambia.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, all of those candidates were competing, but one of them said that one did not only qualify to be Tonga by tribe. To be Tonga in that election, a person had to qualify by belonging to a Tonga party and I think that was Emmanuel Hachipuka and those who care can read the Times of Zambia of 2017.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, I know that my hon. Colleague is a greenhorn in this House, but he should appreciate –

 

Hon. Government Members: Question!

 

Interruptions

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order on my right!

 

Hon. Leader of the Opposition, withdraw that and just raise the point of order.

 

Interruptions

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order on my right!

 

Continue with your point of order, hon. Member.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, I did not –

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I said that withdraw the reference to him as a greenhorn and continue with the point of order.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, thank you for the guidance that adages should not be used in this House.

 

Madam Speaker, I am aware that he is new in this House.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Just withdraw your earlier statement and then proceed with your point of order.

 

Interruptions

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order on my right!

 

Hon. Leader of the Opposition, you may continue.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, I withdraw it and replace it with somebody who is not knowledgeable about parliamentary practices.

 

Madam Speaker, you have guided before and even this afternoon and yesterday, you guided that the rules of this House are that you cannot mention a name of an individual who cannot defend himself. Even the facts the hon. Member is trying to allege are not correct. Is he in order to continue disregarding your rulings and that good guidance on how to debate?

 

I seek your serious ruling, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: He is certainly not in order and I was going to counsel him. My counsel to you, hon. Member for Chilubi, is that when you want to come and debate and make reference to what was said in the past and if it is documented, you need to come with that document and lay it on the Table, then, you can refer to it. Secondly, as much as possible, avoid mentioning names of people who are not able to come here and defend themselves. So, you may proceed with your debate, but take that counsel into account.

 

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, I will try by all means to avoid mentioning people who cannot defend themselves in this House. However, I will refer to some events because what I am talking about is historical. If we want to attack a problem, we need to know the root cause of that problem.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, there is some scheme that I have noticed from some political sections where some people want to portray that I am a product of corruption, tribalism and violence. On 13th February, the good people of Chilubi –

 

Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

 

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, I was looking around –

 

Prof. Luo pointing at Mr Nkombo.

 

Mr Nkombo: Do not point at me, ba Nkandu!

 

Interruptions

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order on my right!

 

Mr Nkombo: Madam, I need your protection. Nkandu is pointing at me.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order hon. Minister of Fisheries and Livestock!

 

Resume your seat, hon. Member for Mazabuka Central.

 

Hon. Minister of Fisheries and Livestock, as senior as you are in every respect, surely, we expect exemplary conduct and tolerance from you.

 

Hon. Member for Mazabuka Central, you were about to raise a point of order.

 

Mr Nkombo: Yes, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam Speaker, my point of order is on the rules of this House. I looked around to see if the hon. Chief Whip was in the House and I did not see him. However, I take comfort in the presence of Hon. Dr Chitalu Chilufya whom I recall at one time told the hon. Member for Chilubi that he is now the Member of Parliament for Chilubi and he should look ahead.

 

Madam Speaker, my point of order is on the hon. Member for Chilubi who should have been inducted properly by being told that we are not allowed to debate ourselves. I see that he is going to town talking about himself being a product of corruption and tribalism, an assertion that we have never heard here, anyway. Is he, therefore, in order to debate himself in this manner?

 

I seek your ruling, Madam Speaker.

 

Interruptions

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order in the House!

 

I appreciate that the hon. Member has a right to debate no matter how new he is in the House. Of course, as presiding officers, we are here to guide, and if you allow us, we will do just that. I was just about to guide the hon. Member for Chilubi that, indeed, we do not debate ourselves. So, hon. Member for Chilubi, remember that you cannot debate yourself in that manner. You are already here. You are the hon. Member of Parliament for Chilubi. You may proceed with your debate.

 

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, I take that counsel fully. What I was trying to say is that on 13thFebruary, the people of Chilubi went to vote in a free and fair election on a rainy day and they produced a product, who is me.

 

Madam Speaker, there was some reference of violence in Chilubi, which I want to talk about. Chilubi is a peaceful place and on a light note, people in Chilubi do not manufacture bees like in some places where there was a by-election where bees were manufactured.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Fube: People in Chilubi do not know violence and on the voting day, they went in numbers to vote. There was a 53 per cent voter turnout which is very unusual in most by-elections and I just wanted to put that on record.

 

Madam Speaker, let me proceed debating the issue of tribalism. When there is an announcement in a village that everybody should go and dig a pit latrine, some people will ignore that call of digging a pit latrine because they know that they will survive by relieving themselves in the bush. When the bush is burnt and such people develop diarrhoea at a wrong time and have no pit latrine to answer the call of nature, they will need to find a reason to use a pit latrine. They will see children playing in their yard and will say that since they are playing in their yard, they will also go and use their toilet. That is the situation we are in and let me break it down to make it simple.

 

Madam Speaker, the situation we are in is that there are some political parties that are founded on tribalism and have been surviving on tribal votes through and through. Their structures and even the launch of their current president was based on tribal issues. I was there at Mulungushi International Conference Centre when they were changing their leadership. However, they say that when you go to seek for justice, go with clean hands. So, some of the people here do not qualify to talk about tribal issues. They fit to be that individual who overlooked to dig a pit latrine but later had diarrhoea and had to find a flimsy reason to go and answer the call of nature.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, there is a song that we sing in Bemba that goes like “Ka kolwe kali kuchina abanankwe amenshi yakaba, bati bakacine, wangocha kaoma wesu wangocha.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Meaning?

 

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, what that means is that a person has been surviving on a particular measure and has been applying it elsewhere. When they see that it is becoming dangerous for them, they cry foul to the House that there is tribalism in the nation. That will not be allowed. According to electoral pathology in the nation, the voting pattern is changing as people seem to be responding the way you respond elsewhere.

 

Interruptions

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Mr Fube: Then you note that you are in problems and want to bring all sorts of issues and turn the peaceful Chilubi into an epicentre of violence. Chilubi is a very difficult environment to campaign in and because of its geographical location, some people could not fit in. So, they had to look for excuses as to why they failed to campaign. I note that some people in this House have said that there was violence and tribalism in Chilubi. However, in Matipa, some people attempted to be violent but the people in that area refused. On the voting day, my relatives never slept in their houses because people were going round and they refused to be violent.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Chilubi, do you have the President’s Speech?

 

Mr Fube: Yes, I have the President’s Speech.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Are you referring to it?

 

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, I am talking about electoral violence and free and fair elections. That is what I am trying to address and I am using the other things as flesh to beef up my debate.

 

Madam Speaker, let me talk about issues in the electoral code of conduct of which I have been an advocate of for some time. By the way, those who think that the PF is going out of power should try another victim because it is not going out of power. The election in Chilubi has demonstrated that the PF is still the party of choice. I am still talking about elections. You need to forgive me. I still have many minutes.

 

Hon. PF Members: Go ahead!

 

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, let me look at constitutionalism and governance, and I will now start addressing the values His Excellency the President tabulated on page 9 of his speech. Constitutionalism and democracy are supposed to be practiced, but I know that there are political parties that detest things like conventions. However, I know that a political party today announced that it will go for a convention although there are political parties that detest intraparty democracy. In Bemba we say, “Akachila ka mbushi, kasengula epo kekele,” literally meaning that when you want to clean other places, first clean where you are. If you do not clean where you are, you have no locus standi to debate certain things. In short, you are powerless because you have nowhere to lean on as you talk about these issues.

 

Madam Speaker, we need to address the issue of democracy and I referred to two terms. The problem is that we have polarised the nation, we lack sobriety and are full of negative energy. We have lawyers in this nation who have knowledge about the law and when they talk about the Constitution, they talk in a biased manner even when they know the truth. We have economists and we are currently facing economic challenges here and there. If they want to debate on the economy, they are going to be biased because they belong to camp A or B.

 

Madam Speaker, I will try to preach some love here because I am a Valentine’s Day Member of Parliament, produced by the people of Chilubi. We need to be magnanimous. When we want to solve a problem, say of patriotism, like His Excellency the President said, we need to know and to question ourselves if we are patriotic. What are we saying about the dollar? What are we saying about the things happening in the nation? However, some people rejoice at the things that happen. I know some political sections that want to survive on national disasters and want to rejoice at the death and sicknesses of other people.

 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, charity begins at home. So, we need to revisit and reflect on patriotism. If I want to throw a stone at my friend in order to make him blind, he may see that I am about to throw a stone at him and might throw one before me and I go blind. So, I was shocked that some people read and listened to His Excellency the President’s selectively and overlooked much of the material that the Head of State brought to the House. When we talk about issues of delivery, I am still proud of saying that the PF is sontaling where it has bombadi. The slogan of “Sonta epo wabomba” is still very much alive because His Excellency the President did just that when he tabulated the national values and ethics.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: You have to translate “Sonta epo wabomba.”

 

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, “Sonta epo wabomba” means point at where you have worked. What is your delivery? What have you done? What is your output?

 

Madam Speaker, when His Excellency the President talked about ethics and morality, he indicated that they have reached out to I think 600 plus people on the issue of alcoholism. He talked about child delinquency in schools and the measures that the Government has taken, which were clearly tabulated. On social justice, His Excellency the President said that they have reached out to the poorest of the poor as a Christian nation in agreement with Matthew 25 verse 31 to 46 which says that “when I was hungry, you fed me.”

 

Interruptions

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Member, resume your seat. We do not quote the Bible here. You are not allowed to do that. You may proceed with your debate.

 

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, thank you very much for your good counsel. I am still learning and I have learnt today. I hope that my next debate will be even better. I really appreciate your continuous counsel.

 

Madam Speaker, what I am trying to say is that the PF rose on a pro-poor platform to deliver to the people of Zambia. His Excellency the President tabulated how they have reached out to the girl child because she is deprived of the opportunity to be in school and he gave statistics in his speech. He demonstrated how many girls they have reached out to through the Girls Education and Women's Empowerment and Livelihood Project (GEWEL). He also demonstrated how many people they have reached out through the Social Cash Transfer Programme. Of course, some people who did selective reading want to water down the speech, but the statistics are there. His Excellency the President demonstrated the efforts that they have made in terms of constitutionalism, among them, the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill No. 10 and I think he did not need to go into the nitty-gritty of the achievements because this is a people-driven process. The Government just responds to what the people want to do and there was no need for His Excellency the President to say this and that.

 

Madam Speaker, there was a question of His Excellency the President not safeguarding citizens. He is the Republican President, which means that if he speaks, he has spoken for Chilubi, Chibombo, Chisamba, Mongu and all places in the country. Our nation is polarised on national issues and our Republican President represents everybody. So, I think we need to re-examine ourselves.

 

Madam Speaker, having said that, I would like to address the issue of national unity. The issue of national unity starts from language. The way I will speak to my neighbour, sister or brother reflects national unity because what comes out of the mouth is what matters. Before the violence we are talking about today becomes physical, it is emotional and psychological. If it is emotional and psychological, it goes without saying that what we say and the words we speak about this nation either bless it or curse it. When we talk of this nation in negative terms, we curse it. When we talk of it in positive terms, we bless it. Even in this House, I have noticed that there is serious negative energy like we are at war. We are not at war. We need to embrace love and that is the starting point. Even when we are calling for dialogue, let us not go with one hand hiding a stick behind. That is not dialogue. Let us not go for dialogue for political expediency. That is not dialogue. We need to go for dialogue with a heart that is ready to give and take. We need to go for dialogue with a spirit of knowing that Zambia belongs to all of us.

 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Fube: We need to go for dialogue with a spirit of thinking about tomorrow. People in this House demonstrated that there are intermarriages and that there is social cohesion and oneness. These values are in place, and we need to nurse and build on them. I hope I will not be debating myself if I said that I am a nationalist who has worked all over the nation. I think the youths of Chikuni, Chisekeshi and Gwembe –

 

Ms Lubezhi: Chisekeshi?

 

Mr Fube: Yes, I said Chisekeshi.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Just ignore those running commentaries and proceed.

 

Mr Fube: I will ignore them.

 

Madam Speaker, the youths of Chikuni, Chisekesi and Gwembe might remember that I rode a bicycle in those areas for a long period of time and they did not see a Bemba in me. They saw a Zambian just as I saw them as Zambian and that is the Zambia I want to see. The problem is that the moment we start describing things by tribe – they say that if the only tool that a carpenter has in his hand is a hammer, everything will look like a nail. The moment you pick a hammer, you will think that everything is a nail.

 

Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Madam.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, resume your seat.

 

Hon. Members, we have all been new at one point or the other. We thrived on the support of those we found and I think that we need to show that support. I am here listening and if the hon. Member for Chilubi says anything he is not supposed to say, I will correct him. For that reason, I will not allow that point of order. I want the hon. Member to continue with his debate so that he can conclude without being disrupted any further.

 

Hon. Member for Chilubi, you may continue.

 

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, I am just doing self-cleansing because I also belong to this country called Zambia. Some of the things that I may say can be very painful to certain quarters but they have to take the punch.

 

Madam Speaker, what I am trying to say is that His Excellency the President came to this House with all the wealth in his speech that he gave to the people and we need to look at how it will affect our constituents. How are they fitting in? How has His Excellency the President reduced the distance between one clinic and the other? How has he reduced the distance between one police post and the other? Who is benefitting from the women empowerment fund and all those factors? So, His Excellency the President was to the point. He means well and the material that he brought to this House concerns and benefits all of us without any subtraction.

 

Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity and I hope that next time I will do better as I look at issues.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Nakacinda (Nominated): Madam Speaker, thank you for the opportunity to add my voice to this Motion. I must state from the outset that yesterday, I was extremely impressed and inspired by the debate I heard from Hon. Mbulakulima. It was very passionate, pointed and he analysed some of the issues that we are dealing with very well. Prof. Lungwangwa also acquitted himself on this subject extremely well.

 

Madam Speaker, in deciding to define for themselves principles and values and having them enshrined in the supreme law of the land and demanding that the Head of State, the number one citizen of this country, should once every year come and address the nation through the people’s assembly, to report on the progress made in relation to those principles and values, I think the people of Zambia were placing on us the representatives of the people a great responsibility to participate in running the country and have the principles and values as enshrined in the constitution actualised in their lives and society. I think that responsibility must first of all begin with how we carry ourselves, which is the demeanour we carry, and the message that we channel out when debating such a Motion. Each and everyone who debated before me, including those who are perpetual critics, have accepted that the President’s Speech is excellent.

 

Mr Nkombo: Question!

 

Mr Nakacinda: They have accepted that the speech was ably delivered. Some of them have even confessed that they were shocked at the eloquent and excellent manner through which the speech was delivered and this is on record.

 

Madam Speaker, I am going to focus my debate on a few things that His Excellency the President raised in his speech. As he talked about patriotism, he also referred to constitutional reforms that are underway at this particular moment and also talked about electoral violence and democracy. I hope time will permit me to also discuss issues around our work ethics, so that we can examine ourselves in light or in relation to the principle of patriotism.

 

Madam Speaker, as it has already been said, patriotism is one’s love for his/her country above all other forms of affinities and it is expected that in our conduct, that love for the country will emerge supreme over every other consideration. One of the greatest challenges that we need to deal with as we make progress as a nation, towards actualising the principles and values particularly patriotism, is for us as citizens, particularly those of us who are in leadership, to be consistent. The moment you have a leadership that is shifting, you will have a challenge because then people cannot fully grasp what you stand for, especially if your conduct and whatever you do is based on convincing others than conviction.

 

Madam Speaker, His Excellency the President referred to the fact that we are undertaking the process of constitutional reforms. This process started in 2016 and we are now in 2020. The reason it has taken too long for us to achieve results is because of having political leaders who are shifting. In the morning, they hold a particular position. At mid-morning, they have a different position. At lunch, they have another position and in the evening, you are even confused what they stand for.

 

Madam Speaker, initially, we had what we thought was the biggest challenge in the constitutional reform process, whereby people complained that the process was not all inclusive. We all know that constitutionally, it is this people’s assembly that is mandated to make amendments to the Constitution. However, because of the political will exhibited by His Excellency the President, the Constitution was amended. He cannot be faulted because even the current Constitution today has provisions that for many years the people of Zambia spoke about, but they never saw the light of day. Today, we have a Constitution that has clauses on a running mate for the Presidency, 50 per cent plus 1 for one to win the Presidential elections and electoral date. The people of Zambia spoke about those things for many years and they are now in the Constitution and that political will is supposed to be appreciated and taken advantage of.

 

Madam Speaker, I know that in Zambia, one of the greatest weaknesses that we have is that we only celebrate gifts when they are taken away. When you look at the Presidents that have preceded Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, each one of them were criticised in a manner that you would think they never did anything good. However, on their burial day, you begin to wonder how some of the mouths that were heavily criticising them would turn around and begin to praise them. I only hope we will not end up praising Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu on this score when he is no longer in that office. I want to say that, as Zambians, we must take advantage of the political will exhibited from the highest office of the land in the Constitution making process.

 

Madam Speaker, when there was a complaint on the process, we eventually had a situation where the Government under the leadership of President Lungu proposed to find a mechanism either through the dialogue process or other mechanisms to ensure that everybody got involved.

 

Mr Chaatila: On a point of order, Madam.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

 

Mr Chaatila: Madam Speaker, thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to raise what I consider a very serious point of order on the hon. Minister of Finance.

 

Madam Speaker, we know that the performance of any Government is largely measured by its economic performance in terms of commodity prices. In 2011, the Patriotic Front (PF) Government found the exchange rate of the Zambian Kwacha to the United States America (USA) Dollar at an average of K3.94. Today, the exchange rate is K15.94 to US$1 under the PF. Is the hon. Minister of Finance in order to sit there quietly without telling the nation why things are worsening in this manner as this has led to the increase of commodity prices?

 

Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister of Finance in order to remain quiet on this matter?

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Do you want me to rule?

 

Mr Chaatila: Madam Speaker, I need your serious ruling on this matter.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The ruling is in form of encouragement and I encourage the hon. Member for Moomba to file a question, so that the hon. Minister of Finance can bring a response after he has made his research and consulted in order for the House to benefit. So, file a question hon. Member for Moomba.

 

Hon. Nakacinda was on the Floor. You may continue.

 

Mr Nakacinda: Madam Speaker, I was saying that at the beginning of this process, there were discussions that it was not inclusive. However, when the doors were opened for everybody to participate, the same people who were complaining about the process decided to shun away and they walked away from it. Eventually, when the citizens of Zambia began to participate in the process, they changed and began to talk about the contents in the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill No. 10. As it is required by Parliament, there was another process through a legislative body. However, instead of coming to speak about the contents in the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill No. 10, the same people who were complaining about the contents walked away. Later on, and because the people of Zambia participated, they shifted their goal post. It is now about trust and they are saying that they cannot trust others. His Excellency the President came here and flushed that argument once more by responding to what the people of Zambia had said. His Excellency the President indicated in his speech that the people of Zambia had spoken loudly that they want women representation to increase in Parliament.

 

Madam Speaker, if we scan this House, we would see that it is telling that the electoral system we are using has not been able to help us get effective representation of our women. However, the people shifting that even though the people of Zambia have spoken in that light are already threatening that they are again going to shift their goal post and walk away. I would like to say and put in on record that the people of Zambia must know that those who are opposing the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill No. 10 are enemies of women’s representation in this House.

 

Hon Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Nakacinda: Madam Speaker, women have been demanding and seeking that there be avenues through which their voices can be heard through this people’s assembly. The differently abled have also been speaking on this matter. So, the people who are threatening to walk away from this process are enemies of the differently abled people in this country insofar as representation is concerned in this House.

 

Madam Speaker, the youths have also been speaking. They also want their issues to be discussed effectively in the people’s assembly, but the electoral system we are using has not been helpful to get their voices in the National Assembly. However, there are those who are perennial shifters of goal posts and are threatening to walk away. I want to tell the people of Zambia to watch out and identify the enemies of their interests. They are enemies of the things they have demanded through the process of constitutional reforms. The enemies of youth representation in this Assembly are those who are threatening to walk away. Traditional leaders have also spoken and have identified that the current Constitution has areas where they need to tweak, so that their welfare can properly be handled. By so doing, things in the governance of their chiefdoms will be in order. So, those who are threatening to walk away from this Assembly are enemies of the welfare of our chiefs and their chiefdoms.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Nakacinda: Madam Speaker, at the time the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill No. 10 will be tabled, we will have an opportunity to know those who are patriotic and those who are basically undertaking politics of inconvenience. We know that history has a way of reminding us and I have also heard some people say that do not bring things of the past because those things have already passed and we are now in a new era.

 

Madam Speaker, we have been here before. For instance, in 2010 and 2011, we concluded the National Constitution Conference (NCC) and we had a political party which participated through that process and were getting allowances, contributing in that process and they never said they had any issues with the NCC. However, when it was convenient for them and a Bill was brought to this House, in their usual way, they shifted goal posts and decided to walk away and shot down the Bill, which they had participated in constructing.

 

Madam Speaker, it is this shifting attitude which is delaying the efforts to make sure that the principles and values are actualised in our society because all of the sudden, it seems we have begun accepting that in politics and politicking, one must develop an art of deceit. One can say one thing outside and then come and say another thing here depending on whether it is convenient or not and that is what is delaying our effort to have the principles and values actualised in our lives.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Nakacinda: Madam Speaker, from the echoes that are going on, one can tell that the shifting attitude is still manifested because earlier, somebody opposed what we are saying.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

I advise you to focus on the debate and ignore the hecklers.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order! Order hon. Members on my left!

 

You may proceed, Hon. Nakacinda.

 

Mr Nakacinda: Madam Speaker, let me now come to tribalism. I have made my point on the Floor of this House and I have not been afraid to mention what has been a catalyst to the situation we are in today. I do not want to repeat myself. However, the unfortunate part is that those who are guilty of planting certain seeds in that regard have chosen to start playing the blame game, which is basically only achieving self discrimination. The moment you become oversensitive about your tribe, what message are you sending? What makes you uncomfortable when your tribe is mentioned?

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Nakacinda: If anybody uses a metaphor using my tribe, I become shifty. I must be comfortable with my tribe and allow others to use it for whatever metaphor they use, knowing that I am fully Zambian, I enjoy every right and I have the right to participate in the affairs of this country without ever suggesting that somebody has an agenda against me. Actually, that attitude becomes an agenda against yourself because it creates some complex that begins to influence your attitude. You begin to feel that somebody is against you and you start looking for something that does not exist.

 

Madam Speaker, let us be comfortable with who we are. We are Zambians. One Zambia one Nation. Whether we are Bemba, Lozi or Tonga, none of us should ever think that another tribe owes us anything. There is no tribe in this country that owes another tribe anything. Collectively, as a country, we came together and fought for our independence. The only thing that you can ever sell for you to assume to any office of leadership is your capability. So, I encourage all of us who are here to sharpen our skills, talents and intellectual capacity to enable us speak and not use our tribe. When we occupy an office, people should not see our tribe but our capability, talent and skill.

 

Mr Mwamba: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Nakacinda: That is what we must be advocating for.

 

Mr Mwamba: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Nakacinda: Madam Speaker, on electoral violence, I have done a little research and I know that –

 

Interruptions

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order in the House!

 

Hon. Member for Lubansenshi, your “Hear, hear!” is becoming disruptive. I encourage your support but not in that manner.

 

Hon. Nakacinda, you may proceed.

 

Mr Nakacinda: Madam Speaker, time may not permit me to exhaust some of the thoughts but in summary, electoral violence must be analysed based on facts. This exchange of accusations is not helpful. I know that there are certain areas in this country where political violence has been dominant. We should ask ourselves why this is so and get to the bottom of it. I participated in the Milenge by-election for the council chairperson and there was no violence. I was in Chilubi and there was no violence. In Bahati, there was no violence and statistics are there to show this. However, I believe that we will have an opportunity to discuss this in detail. Possibly, the Mapatizya formula needs to be looked at to see how we can deal with it and there are many other formulas that we have heard in certain areas that we need to deal with.

 

Madam Speaker, one of the things that we need to deal with is the contribution of the forth estate, which is the media. I know that some political outfits have been very reckless in abusing media platforms and fuelling some of the vices that are working against us as a people in our effort to actualise the set principles and values in our society.

 

Madam Speaker, with those few words, I thank you.

 

Interruptions

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Mr Michelo (Bweengwa): Madam Speaker, I am a bearer of a message from the people of Bweengwa and I will scrutinise His Excellency the President’s address on Friday 6th March, 2020.

 

Madam Speaker, let me begin by saying that mental illness causes lying called Borderline Personality Disorder (BDP). I am saying this because the speech given by His Excellency the President on the Floor of this House last Friday is an enemy of this country and the citizens of this country. The speech is an enemy of President Edgar Chagwa Lungu himself because all the things he said in the speech –

 

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of Order, Madam.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, this House is guided by rules, procedures, etiquette and more so, decorum. I have been waiting to hear the debate, but I am concerned that the hon. Member is trying to tell us the state of his mind, which is worrisome, and he described it in his own medical understanding.

 

Madam Speaker, is he in order to start by indicating that a speech that has been debated so ably by many hon. Members of this august House, including those from his party, is an enemy of His Excellency the President? Is he in order to declare the President’s Speech an enemy of His Excellency the President who delivered it? Like I said, decorum is very key here and the people listening to us expect a lot from us as their leaders. Is he, therefore, in order to declare the speech an enemy of His Excellency the President before he even starts debating it? He has to interpret that before he can debate the speech.

 

Madam Speaker, I seek your serious ruling.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: My serious ruling is that he has just started debating. Remember that he is debating. He started by saying what he said and I was waiting to hear him articulate or explain why he said what he said. He is in order and he will proceed with his debate.

 

Hon. Member for Bweengwa, you may continue.

 

Mr Michelo: Madam Speaker, I will justify why I said that the speech is an enemy of society and His Excellency the President himself. His Excellency the President mentioned a number of good things in the speech, but they are not happening on the ground. If you hear something but see something else, you have to use your brain and that is simple. His Excellency the President said many nice things. He spoke about political violence, but his cadres are the perpetrators of violence in this country. He also talked about morality, but where is morality in corruption? The Government of President Edgar Chagwa Lungu is the most corrupt regime since Zambia was born. His Excellency the President talked about morality and alcoholism, but I am sure this PF regime has ordered more beer at State House than any other.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order hon. Member for Bweengwa!

 

I will not allow that because you have no evidence to substantiate that. I expect you to withdraw that. You have no evidence to show that beer has been –

 

Mr Michelo: Madam Speaker, I withdraw.

 

Madam Speaker, let me now go straight into the issue of gassing.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I said that you should withdraw what you said.

 

Mr Michelo: I have withdrawn, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Withdraw what you said.

 

Mr Michelo: Madam Speaker, I withdraw the statement that the Government has bought more beer than any other regime since Zambia was born.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: You can proceed.

 

Mr Michelo: Madam Speaker, let me come to the issue of gassing. Being the Commander-in-Chief, I expected His Excellency the President to tell the entire country the source of the chemical being used by the criminals who are gassing innocent citizens and we have a police service. We wanted His Excellency the President to tell us the country that manufactured the chemical, the one who went to buy it and transported it to the border. We wanted His Excellency the President to go further to tell us the officer from immigration who cleared the chemical for it to enter into this country. So, these are the issues we wanted His Excellency the President to tell us.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Hon. Government Members: Immigration?

 

Mr Michelo: No. The officer from customs. There are machines which scan things that enter the country at different borders and we wanted to know the person who operated that machine and that is very important. So, these are the issues we wanted to hear from His Excellency the President.

 

Madam Speaker, His Excellency the President has professional officers and some of them have degrees, master’s degrees and Doctor of Philosophy (PHDs). How can His Excellency the President suggest that they are going to constitute a commission of inquiry when the PF Government is broke? These are the issues we wanted to hear His Excellency the President talk about. There is no way you can suggest constituting a commission of inquiry because you may start appointing your relatives and friends and then instruct them on what outcomes you want. In the recent past, we had a commission of inquiry on voting patterns but we have not seen that report up to now. It seems this is just a way to run away from reality, but we are not interested.

 

Madam Speaker, if His Excellency the President was serious about the issue of gassing innocent citizens, he was supposed to tell this nation that he was going to engage the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) or Scotland Yard to investigate this issue because the police have failed. I believe the people who were gassing the innocent citizens are surrounding His Excellency the President and that is my belief.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

You cannot say that. I will not even ask you to substantiate that because I do not think you can. You will, therefore, withdraw that statement.

 

Mr Michelo: Madam Speaker, I withdraw that statement.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The statement that?

 

Mr Michelo: Madam Speaker, I withdraw the statement that the inner circle of the PF is the architect of gassing innocent citizens.

 

Madam Speaker, I believe the PF Government has invested too much money into lies.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: What did you just say?

 

Mr Michelo: Madam Speaker, the PF Government has invested too much money into falsehoods because none of the things are happening on the ground. However, it is a beautifully written speech and I can give the people who wrote it a distinction, but nothing is happening on the ground.

 

Madam Speaker, on the issue of good governance, opposition political party members live as second class citizens in this country. They live as if they are not Zambians. You will remember what happened in Chilubi recently where my brother, Hon. Kambwili, was chased like a criminal by the PF police, which is not good. I do not believe the police officers who chased Chishimba Kambwili ...

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

 

Mr Michelo: ... are real police officers; I think they are cadres.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order! Resume your seat.

 

Some of these statements we make as leaders undermine the same institution that we should uphold and should be relying on. The reference to the police as “the PF police” is extremely unfortunate because this is your police service. It is there for every citizen regardless of his/her political affiliation.

 

Hon. Member for Bweengwa, withdraw that reference to the police as “the PF police” and proceed with your debate.

 

Mr Michelo: Madam Speaker, let me withdraw the statement.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The statement that?

 

Mr Michelo: Madam Speaker, I withdraw the statement that those police officers who chased my brother Chishimba Kambwili from Chilubi are PF cadres.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: You may proceed.

 

Mr Michelo: Madam Speaker, the truth will never be conquered not even by the mightiest army in this world. The issue here is that we need leaders who are truthful to this country. The PF Government is just good at making pronouncements while does nothing on the ground. The PF is saying that the economy is doing well, but it is not. The economy is completely dead under the PF but it inherited a growing economy in 2011. When we pose questions to some hon. Ministers, they always say when money will be available, but it will never be available under the PF.

 

Ms Mulenga interjected.

 

Mr Michelo: When the PF was campaigning before 2011 –

 

Ms Mulenga: Community development –

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order hon. Minister of Community Development and Social Welfare! You may proceed, hon. Member.

 

Mr Michelo: I am capable of disciplining you. Be careful!

 

Interruptions

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order! Order on both sides of the House! Order hon. Minister! Before we suspend business, hon. Member for Bweengwa, withdraw that statement of disciplining the hon. Minister.

 

Mr Michelo: Madam Speaker, I withdraw the statement that I will discipline the hon. Minister. I will not discipline her.

 

Laughter

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Business was suspended from 1811 hours until 1830 hours.

 

[MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

 

Mr Michelo: Madam Speaker, thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to continue debating the Motion on the Floor of the House.

 

Madam Speaker, before I cruise into tribalism, I am very worried and if we were to carry out an analysis, I believe more than 98 per cent of the PF may not inherit the kingdom of heaven for destroying this nation.

 

Hon. Government Members: Question!

 

Mr Michelo: Madam Speaker, so many lives have been lost because of corruption under the PF Government. Most of the roads are in a deplorable state because of corruption in the PF. I do not think that even God is happy with what is currently happening in Zambia. He is as unhappy as I am. So, when the PF Government has its next cabinet meeting, it should pray hard so that it can manage this country properly again.

 

Madam Speaker, we have been talking about uniting this country, but our friends on the right do not want this country to unite. However, we on the left are willing anytime and the person we feel can call for a round table meeting is His Excellency the President himself, so that we can heal this nation. To tell you the truth, this nation is divided. If you look at the map of Zambia, half of it is red and the other is green. So, we as leaders have to unite this country.

 

Madam Speaker, the PF’s rule is a period of destruction. It is an undisputable fact that most of the things have been destroyed by the PF Government. I remember hon. Members of Parliament used to receive the Constituency Development Funds (CDF) on a yearly basis, but not anymore. Where has the money gone? So, these are the questions we should be asking ourselves. However, I think the money in this country has grown legs.

 

Mr Lubinda: The money has done what?

 

Mr Michelo: Some people who I feel cannot even manage to keep a cat are making noise.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Member for Bweengwa, please, ignore the running commentaries and focus on your debate.

 

Interruptions

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order on my right!

 

Mr Michelo: Madam Speaker, what I was trying to say is that we need people who can at least manage to keep a goat, sheep or cattle to manage a country. There is no way one can manage to lead people if he/she cannot manage to even keep a chicken. It is very difficult. So, these are the issues we should address and I believe Jesus was born in a kraal of cattle.

 

Madam Speaker, let me continue talking about tribalism. Tribalism is the biggest cancer in this country. I remember quite well that in 1979, a certain hon. Minister stood on the Floor of this House and debated that this country was no longer one and that has continued up to now. Please, let us unite this county again.

 

Madam Speaker, His Excellency the President spoke about tribalism, but it starts at State House and I will justify this and will lay the document I am holding on the Table. At State House, there is Hon. Freedom Chomba Sikazwe, Minister for Presidential Affairs, MP, Dr Simon K. Miti, Principal Private –

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

You cannot go that way. Debate generally, but do not mention names in that manner in this House. If you wish, you can lay the document on the Table, but I will not allow it to be discussed that way.

 

Mr Michelo: Madam Speaker, the document I am holding has all the hon. Cabinet Ministers, and among them, there is no person from the southern part of this country.

 

Hon. Government Members: What about Hamukale?

 

Mr Michelo: I am talking about a full Cabinet Minister.

 

Madam Speaker, I will lay this document on the Table and I wanted to even read it. Even most Permanent Secretaries come from one region, when the country is big enough to accommodate all the tribes in this country, but this is what is obtaining. Does it mean that there are no people from the Southern Province, the Western Province and North-Western Province? It is very bad. We from other parts of the country are also Zambians and hon. Members on the right should tell us if they do not want us and not what they are doing. Such actions are very bad.

 

Madam Speaker, even on the issue of National Registration Cards (NRCs), we are being discriminated against. Starting from Lusaka going up north, someone can get an NRC within fifteen or twenty minutes. In the Southern Province, it takes someone thirty days for him/her to get an NRC. This is what is happening in the Southern Province. So, what kind of discrimination is this by these people (referring to hon. Government Members)?

 

Mr Fube: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Michelo: Hey, do not even stand up! You are bad people!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Member for Bweengwa, the right you enjoy can be enjoyed by others as well. Resume your seat.

 

A point of order is raised.

 

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity to raise a point of order. Is the hon. Member of Parliament for Bweengwa in order to divide the nation in his speech, when Zambia is a unitary state?

 

I seek your serious ruling, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: My ruling is that to the extent that the hon. Member for Bweengwa is expressing his view of the way things are, and since he said that that is how things are, he is in order.

 

Hon. Member for Bweengwa, you may proceed.

 

Mr Michelo: Madam Speaker, if one has never travelled to the Southern Province, I think it is better that he/she keeps quiet because things are very bad there. It is like the Southern Province is not part of this country. It is very bad. If one went to Monze the day after tomorrow, he/she would be shocked to see the queues there and maybe only four or five people would manage to acquire NRCs on that particular day in the entire district. This is what is happening in the Southern Province. So, what kind of Government is this? We have never seen such from the time Zambia was born.

 

Madam Speaker, we are not just criticising the Government for nothing, but these are serious issues. One has to have an NRC for him/her to go to university or college, but our children are suffering. Why are they discriminating against us like this? This is what I call systematic genocide against the people of the Southern Province. It is all because of this bad PF Government. This is very bad.

 

Dr Malama: Hate speech!

 

Mr Michelo: This is not hate speech. What is your problem? You think I am happy? I am not happy. If you are happy just because your children are getting NRCs –

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Member for Bweengwa, resume your seat. You have this habit of speaking even when you have been stopped or asked to resume your seat. It does not help at all. This House has rules and we must all work hard to also uphold its integrity. If every hon. Member conducted himself/herself in that manner, there would be disorder in the House.

 

Hon. Member for Bweengwa, proceed with your debate.

 

Mr Michelo: Madam Speaker, the issue of NRCs is very annoying, but I will heed your advice. I will only stop getting annoyed when my people start getting NRCs in large numbers like in other places.

 

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Bweengwa!

 

A point of order is raised.

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, I have been following the hon. Member’s debate and I do not know how many times he has been made to withdraw certain unpalatable words. You have allowed me to raise my point of order because this is how it is supposed to be in this House.

 

Madam Speaker, the issuance of National Registration Cards (NRCs) to the Zambian citizens is mandatory and this is done every day across the country in all the districts. Is the hon. Member in order to insinuate through his tantrums –

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Withdraw the word ‘tantrums’ and conclude.

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, I wish I could find a suitable way of describing his debate.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Just conclude your point of order and withdraw the word ‘tantrums’.

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, I withdraw the word ‘tantrums’ and replace it with ‘hallucinations’.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Withdraw the word ‘hallucinations’ as well. Do you really have a point of order?

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, as a responsible representative of the people of Bweengwa – and it is at this time that I remember one gallant son of Bweengwa who was here four years ago, who when he stood to debate, we could all keep quiet and listen to his discourse. However, is the hon. Member in order to insinuate and mislead the nation that the people of Bweengwa are being segregated in the issuance of NRCs without tendering proof in this august House? These are national matters and this is how people agitate for hate from members of the public.

 

I seek your serious ruling, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: My serious ruling is that as an hon. Minister, you are expected to speak after private hon. Members have spoken. The idea of you speaking last is to offer you an opportunity to respond to the issues being raised on the Floor of the House. Hon. Minister of Home Affairs, I encourage you to take notes so that when the time comes, you can respond to rebut or correct what is being said on the Floor of the House. The idea of you speaking last is so that you can take notes and respond.

 

Hon. Member for Bweengwa, you may proceed with your debate.

 

Mr Michelo: Madam Speaker, I am not here to please Hon. Kampyongo.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Proceed with your debate.

 

Mr Michelo: Madam Speaker, I am here for the people of Bweengwa. The former hon. Member of Parliament for Bweengwa was a PF supporter. I do not support PF because it has destroyed this country. I will never support PF in my life because it has destroyed this country. We have lost so many lives because of the corrupt activities in the Government. I am not here to please him by speaking his language. I am not here to do that. I have come here to speak for the people of Bweengwa, who currently have a representative in this House.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Mr Michelo: They have a representative –

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Member for Bweengwa, resume your seat. I think we are done with this debate.

 

Mr Lubinda: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

 

Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, I took your counsel about hon. Ministers taking copious notes to come and respond. However, I seek your ruling on whether the hon. Member of Parliament is in order to repetitively talk about killings and people dying a few minutes after he said that this is systemic genocide against the people of the Southern Province. Is he in order to insinuate that this Government is killing people based on ethnicity or killing people at all?

 

Madam Speaker, I seek your serious ruling on this matter because it is not a matter that I can afford to wait to come and counter when I present my debate. This is a matter on which the record ought to be put straight, particularly on a day when there was an earlier ruling this afternoon on trading on hate speech. There is no other word that can be considered to be hate speech than systemic genocide of the people. Is he in order to trade along those lines?

 

I seek your very serious ruling on this matter, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: My ruling is that the hon. Member for Bweengwa was out of order. Unfortunately, there is no much time left and I will not allow him to proceed with the debate because I think that when debate turns into exactly what we want to avoid, which is hate speech, it is no longer constructive criticism. For that reason, the hon. Member for Bweengwa was certainly out of order.

 

Dr Malama (Kanchibiya): Madam Speaker, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to represent the people of Kanchibiya on this debate. I thank His Excellency the President for coming to this august House on Friday, 6th March, 2020, and he came with a message to unite this country. I heard some people in this House who listened to him as the nation was listening change his message right before us here.

 

Madam Speaker, when I was a policeman or in school, we used to play certain games. People would line up and someone would whisper a message to another person and by the time the twelfth person received it, if it was not distorted, then, that would be perfect. However, I am hearing people in this House distort the message. The message for the people of Zambia on page 8 of the President’s Speech is that tribalism and hate speech has no place in Zambia. Many Zambians listen to us when we debate and I am sure they were shocked to hear what I heard. However, I will not stoop and re-quote some of the things that have been said in this House. I thank His Excellency the President and the people of Kanchibiya would like to tell him that “Uku patile tatila ubusuma bobe”.

 

Ms Kucheka: Meaning!

 

Dr Malama: I will explain, Madam.

 

Madam Speaker, His Excellency the President came here and spoke very well, but I have heard how some people have twisted his message. What I said means that the one who hates you will not find anything good in what you do. Today, this is what is happening. His Excellency the President talked about unity in this country and getting rid of tribalism. I read the President’s Speech, which I have with me here, and His Excellency the President said that tribalism and hate speech have no place in Zambia. He put this in capitals. I would like the party on the left to underline that there is no room for tribalism.

 

Madam Speaker, when His Excellency the President mentioned that there is no room for tribalism in Zambia, what space does he want to create for Zambia? It is economic development. Our young people are looking for jobs and when I hear an opposition political party or any politician for that matter talk about tribalism and propagating hate speech – it is occupying the space that should be occupied by development. The people of Zambia, who include our youths and women, would like to see a united front talking about how we will conquer the economic challenges in the country. His Excellency the President said that there is no space for tribalism and hate speech in Zambia. Further, he warned politicians to stop propagating tribalism and hate speech, and Zambians heard him. Today, when a politician is given a microphone to address people, what you will hear is “this tribe and that tribe.” So, His Excellency the President has full understanding of our people.

 

Madam Speaker, my father belongs to a clan called abena ngo, which is a leopard. That same clan is found in the North-Western Province in Chief Mulonga’s area and in Luapula Province, the Northern Province and Central Province. In the Eastern Province, they are called Zimbas. When you hear someone called Zimba, it is the same as abena ngo. His Excellency the President has full understanding that we are One Zambia, One Nation. When I go to Chief Mulonga’s village in the North-Western Province, I will be given a stool because I belong there. Also, when I go to the Eastern Province and I find the Zimbas, I know that they are my father’s relatives ...

 

Mr Nkombo: Yes, we know.

 

Dr Malama: ... including the people who are saying yes we know. So, one can see how united we are and the people who want to talk about tribe do not know what they are talking about. The Batwa people found in Bweengwa are also found in Chundaponde and the wetlands area in Kanchibiya Constituency and they are called Abatwa. So, we are one people. How do you pick one Batwa from my constituency and another one from the Southern Province and then say they are tribalists? People should learn to coexist. His Excellency the President said that tribalism has no place in Zambia. We have a common origin and are one people. So, His Excellency the President fully understands that and he would want to divert the attention of our people from talking about tribe.

 

Madam Speaker, when we talk about marriage, most people, including some politicians, are not married from the regions they come from. Their hearts have gone further than their regions. Even when they call home and say “sweetheart,” they use another language. It is another area. That is what it is.

 

Mr Mwiimbu used sign language.

 

Dr Malama: In marriage – Madam Speaker, I can see that there is sign language. Some people are trying to –

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: How?

 

Dr Chanda: The Leader of the Opposition.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: At least, there is some expression of love.

 

Laughter

 

Hon. Member, proceed. You are doing well.

 

Dr Malama: Whoever is using sign language is married to my sister, so, I will report to her.

 

Madam Speaker, looking at the marital space of our country, one can see that Zambians have done very well and have crushed tribalism. People have performed extremely well in churches and schools and His Excellency the President is fully aware of that. They are coexisting.

 

Madam Speaker, I grew up on the Copperbelt and I will tell you about the Copperbelt. I was born in Ndola and I grew up in Chingola. Growing up in Nchanga, people would say twaya ku mushi meaning we are going to the village. In my mind, I visualised that Zambians had one big village because our people co-existed and co-exist. So, tribalism is in the political space. His Excellency the President did not talk about people in marriages, churches, schools or neighbourhoods because these people co-exist. I thank the people of Chikankata because when my young brother would go to Chikankata to buy chickens and other animals all the way from the Copperbelt, they would keep him. He would sleep in many houses until he would reach where he would be going and this is the nature of our people. When you go to the North-Western Province, you will find the same way of life. This also obtains in Luapula and all over Zambia. So, politicians who want to create animosity in this beautiful covenanted nation, a Christian nation, should be taken away from the political space to ensure that there is development as His Excellency the President said.

 

Mrs Chinyama: Nimwebo ba Malama saying that?

 

Dr Malama: Yes, it is me, madam.

 

Madam Speaker, those who want to distort His Excellency the President’s message should stop it. It is very clear. Someone mentioned that on the Cabinet list, there are no people from the Southern Province. His Excellency the President had one big position of Vice-Presidency to fill. He did not look to the Eastern Province and we know that wise people come from the east. Some people boast about this.

 

Mr Daka: Bwekeshapo!

 

Dr Malama: No. I am saying that some people boast.

 

Laughter

 

Dr Malama: However, His Excellency the President did not look in that direction. The founder of the mighty Patriotic Front (PF) Party comes from my village and we have able representatives of our people. His Excellency the President did not look to the North, neither did he look elsewhere for that position, but he went to pick a very talented and able woman from the Western Province in the Kuta called the Lwambi. There are many kutas. There is Nomuso, where you find the Litunga and it is Kwa Mutulo in the North and Kwa Mboela. There is another Kuta in the south called Lwambi and that is where he found Her Honour the Vice-President. She has performed extremely well day by day and we thank God for her wisdom. So, anyone who wants to lay a list on the Table will be wasting his/her time; if at all there is such a person. After the Vice-President, there are many portfolios that are important like defence and His Excellency the President gave this position to a very talented young man from the Southern Province, but we know what some people did.

 

Madam Speaker, let me talk about the Ministry of Fisheries and Livestock. Zambia has many water bodies. His Excellency the President appointed a very talented young man from Itezhi-Tezhi and the Western Province. What happened?

 

Interruptions

 

Dr Malama: Madam Speaker, beyond that, His Excellency the President wanted to work with everyone not only at national level but at sub-national level. He went to fight cholera in Kafue, which is nearby. He worked in a very non-partisan manner with a very talented council chairperson to help fight cholera. What did a certain political party do? It suspended the council chairperson and today, they are complaining. His Excellency the President went to Kaoma and the same thing happened.

 

Mrs Chinyama: Tired debate!

 

Dr Malama: Thank you, madam. I respect your views.

 

Madam Speaker, wanting to dent His Excellency the President as promoting tribalism when he is actually fighting it, is a wrong thing. The Economic Advisor, the Bank of Zambia Governor, the Permanent Secretary in the Ministry of Finance and many other portfolios are from different tribes. So, His Excellency the President looks beyond what some former Permanent Secretaries look at and he looks at every Zambian. In fact, using his words, he calls every Zambian including those in the opposition political parties as partners in development and not enemies. We are not enemies in the political space. If there was enmity, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs would deregister some political parties for promoting enmity. However, that is not the way His Excellency the President looks at things. He looks at co-existence.

 

Madam Speaker, for the sake of the record, I want to read what His Excellency the President said. Zambians heard His Excellency the President say that:

 

“Let me sound a stern warning that enough is enough. I direct all law enforcement agencies to arrest the situation once and for all. There should be no sacred cows in administering justice. Similarly, we should have no sacrificial lambs! The law should always take its full course on perpetrators of political violence or mob attacks regardless of one’s political affiliation or any other consideration”.

 

Madam Speaker, in bold letters he said that:

 

“Tribalism and hate speech has no place in Zambia. Politicians, please stop it!”

 

Mr Mwamba: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

 

Mr Mwamba: Madam Speaker, thank you very much for allowing me to raise this point of order. I rarely rise on this occasion and this is going to be my first point of order.

 

Madam Speaker, I listened attentively to the hon. Member debating as he was cataloguing officers that His Excellency the President has appointed in very senior positions. Is the hon. Member of Parliament who is debating so well, in order not to include an hon. Member of Parliament from the same area and has been adamantly debating that there are no officers being appointed from a certain area, and this is a former Permanent Secretary in the Ministry of General Education?

 

Madam Speaker, I need your serious ruling.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: My serious ruling is that the hon. Member for Lubansenshi should not debate through the hon. Member for Kanchibiya because he also has the right to indicate and debate. So, the hon. Member for Lubansenshi is at liberty to debate and bring out those issues.

 

Hon. Member for Kanchibiya, proceed.

 

Dr Malama: Madam Speaker, I thank you for your guidance. I would like to mention that indeed, as one of my brothers mentioned, the PF appointed a Permanent Secretary from the Southern Province and the North-Western Province, and a deputy hon. Minister of Youth, Sport and Child Development from the Western Province. Today, some people may criticise –

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

(Debate adjourned)

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ADJOURNMENT

 

The Chief Whip and Acting Leader of Government Business in the House (Mr Mundubile): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

 

Question put and agreed to.

 

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The House adjourned at 1911 hours until 0900 hours on Friday, 13th March, 2020.

 

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