Wednesday, 24^th February, 2021

 

The House met at 1430 hours

 

NATIONAL ANTHEM

 

PRAYER

 

______

 

QUESTION FOR ORAL ANSWER

 

SHIBUYUNJI POLICE RAID

 

143. Mr Jamba (Mwembezhi) asked the Minister of Home Affairs:

 

1. why the police raided and searched Village Headman Polobe in Shibuyunji District on Friday, 19^th February, 2021;
2. whether the police found what they were looking for;
3. whether the Government is aware that the search has traumatised the residents; and
4. if so, what immediate measures the Government is taking to calm the situation in the area.

 

The Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Kampyongo): Sir, I wish to inform the august House that Part III of the Constitution of the Republic of Zambia provides for the protection of the fundamental rights and freedoms of individuals. However, it should be read together with the State Security Act, Chapter III of the Laws of Zambia, which specifies the circumstances in which the Zambia Police Service may conduct a search. I quote:

 

“11. (1) If a magistrate is satisfied by information on oath that there is reasonable ground for suspecting that an offence under this Act has been or is about to be committed he may grant a search warrant in the form set out in the Schedule authorising any police officer named therein of or above the rank of Sub Inspector, together with such other police officers and other persons who may be authorised by such named police officer, at any time to enter any premises, place, aircraft, ship, boat, train or other vehicle, or receptacle, as the case may be, named or described in the warrant, if necessary by force, and to search the same and every person or vehicle found thereon or therein or in the vicinity thereof, and to seize anything which he may find in the course of such search which is or may be evidence of an offence under this Act having been or being about to be committed or with regard to or in connection with which he has reasonable grounds for suspecting that an offence has been or is about to be committed.”

 

Sir, according to the Act I have just cited, the Zambia Police Service was within the law when it conducted the search at Village Headman Polobe in Shibuyunji District on Friday, 19^th February, 2021, as there was reasonable ground for suspecting that an offence was to be committed. The House may wish to note that at the time the search was being conducted in Shibuyunji District, similar searches were being conducted in Chisamba and Chibombo districts.

 

Mr Speaker, the matter is still under active investigation. Therefore, it will be premature to state whether anything was found or not.

 

Sir, the Government is not aware of any resident who was traumatised as a result of the search. It should be noted that prior to the search, the concerned residents were made aware of what was to be undertaken. Further, after the search, the residents were briefed, and they willingly signed the exit papers for the search warrant without any complaints. It is interesting to note that despite the searches having been conducted in three districts, only the search in Shibuyunji District has attracted public interest. To enhance law and order in the country, it is important for the nation to let the Zambia Police Service work professionally without interference.

 

Sir, the searches were normal police operations carried out peacefully. However, due to the public interest in the search in Shibuyunji District, the Zambia Police Service has intensified patrols and intelligence gathering to ensure that no one takes advantage of the situation.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Mr Speaker, I have listened attentively to the responses the hon. Minister has given to the question. However, is it not prudent for him or the Government to clearly state what that act that was about to be committed was, and by whom? Was it by the owners of the villages searched or people elsewhere?

 

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, it is premature, at this juncture, for me to go into the details of what the police were searching for and what they discovered because the investigations are still active. Members of the public will be informed when the investigations are concluded.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Ms Lubezhi (Namwala): Mr Speaker, I am glad that the hon. Minister is in sync with the Police Service Spokesperson in stating that the search was not just at the Shibuyunji family, but also other areas like Chibombo and Chisamba.

 

Sir, could the hon. Minister kindly mention the names of the households in Chibombo and Chisamba that were searched in a manner similar to the way the family in Shibuyunji was searched.

 

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, as I have said, the investigations have not been concluded. Therefore, we are not going to start naming suspects. It is not our practice to name suspects on the Floor of this august House when investigations are still ongoing.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Mr Lihefu (Manyinga): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has stated that searches were conducted in various areas, Chisamba included. However, the search in Shibuyunji, as the hon. Minister stated, has attracted a lot of speculation, even from those who are in the rural constituencies like Manyinga. In the ministry’s view, why has the search in Shibuyunji attracted a lot of speculation in this country?

 

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, one of the reasons for interests is the question that has come to the Floor. The other reasons are that the hon. Member for that area issued a statement that has been quoted in some media circles and that a prominent political figure went to Shibuyunji after that search was done. That is the public interest. My warn and caution to those who want to politicise this matter is that they can either willingly or unwillingly implicate themselves. That is why I plead that we let the police do its work professionally because it knows what it is working on. We must try by all means to depoliticise its operations.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Mr Nanjuwa (Mumbwa): Thank you, Mr Speaker. I also thank the hon. Minister for –

 

Mr Jamba: On a point of order, Sir.

 

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

 

Mr Jamba: Mr Speaker, we intend to ask questions to the hon. Minister without malice, but as citizens of the country and representatives of the people. Going by the way the hon. Minister is answering, is he in order to say that people are going to implicate themselves in the way they are asking questions and trying to get answers? If this question has the potential to implicate people in some issues, does it mean that you were wrong in admitting it on the Order Paper? Is the hon. Minister in order to say that we are going to be implicated or actually followed?

 

I seek your serious ruling, Sir.

 

Mr Speaker: My ruling is this, and I am sure this will be attested to by the verbatim record: there was a question from the hon. Member for Manyinga on why there is so much public interest in the matter, and the hon. Minister responded accordingly. In the course of the response, he counselled those who may have ulterior or extra motives to be careful. He did not caution hon. Members of Parliament who are asking questions now. He certainly could not do that, and I would not permit him, anyway, because I have put this matter so that he can come and explain, and he has come to explain. He has not suggested that anybody who will ask him a question will be implicated, not at all. So, hon. Member for Mwembezhi, if you have a question, join the queue.

 

Hon. Members, given the long list we have on this question, my direction is that there will be no further points of order. Interestingly, even as the hon. Minister was reading the question, before he had rendered a response, twelve people had lined up to ask follow-up questions. That is how much interest there is in this matter.

 

Who was on the Floor? This is the tragedy of these points of order.

 

Mr Nanjuwa: Mr Speaker, in his response, the hon. Minister has indicated that no people who were traumatised. However, those of us who come from the village can inform you that merely seeing a police officer is traumatising to the whole village. That is how it is in the villages. 

 

Mr Ngulube: Question!

 

Mr Nanjuwa: My question is: The hon. Minister mentioned that the community in Shibuyunji District was briefed on the intended search before it was carried out. Was Headman Polobe among those who were briefed on the search?

 

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, I appreciate the follow-up question from the hon. Member for Mumbwa.

 

Sir, the residents of the place where the search was conducted and those who were affected by the search are the ones who were spoken to prior to, and after, the search. The ones who signed the exit papers were the ones with whom discussions were held.

 

Mr Speaker, I thank you.    
 

Mr Miyanda (Mapatizya): Mr Speaker, the facts around the search are in the public domain; we all saw what happened. Further, in responding to the hon. Member for Manyinga, the hon. Minister clearly indicated that the cause of the uproar in the country is because of the involvement of a prominent Opposition leader, and that is true.

 

Mr Speaker, what we and everyone else have seen are the ditches that were alleged to have been dug by the police officers who were there. Now that the hon. Minister has indicated that the investigations are still active, will police officers still go back to Shibuyunji, to that headman’s area, and dig some more? Did they just miss the target in trying to find whatever is covered in the ground or whatever they are looking for?

 

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, it is not for me to say whether the police will go back there or not. The police officers who are investigating this matter will determine where, who and how to investigate next. It is not for the Minister to determine that course of action.

 

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

 

Dr Malama (Kanchibiya): Mr Speaker, I appreciate police officers for the task they have of keeping not only the people of Shibuyunji, but also all the people of Zambia safe from danger.

 

Mr Speaker, there was a report in one of the daily papers in which a Police Commissioner was asked whether this operation had been conducted or not, and the Police Commissioner indicated that he did not know about it. However, within a short period of time, the Police Service Spokesperson from Police Headquarters indicated that the search had been conducted. Was the police trying to hide anything? If not, what happened in that instance?

 

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, I appreciate the follow-up question from the hon. Member for Kanchibiya.

 

Sir, I will give the clarification that the hon. Member seeks in this fashion: in our quest to allow the police to interact with the public, senior police officers, especially those at the Division level, are allowed to interact with the media. That matter arose from the article in one of our tabloids that quoted the Commissioner of Police responsible for Lusaka Division saying that he was not aware of the operation. The interesting fact to note is that unlike the other nine Divisions, Lusaka is unique in the sense that it also hosts the Police Headquarters, where the police Command is, and there are structures there that also conduct operations. So, it is possible that at the time the newspaper contacted the Commissioner for the Division, he might not have been aware because the police covers many areas. However, he was certainly going to eventually be made aware on a need-to-know basis.

 

Mr Speaker, the tabloid carried a story that just said that the Commissioner was not aware, and his saying that he was not aware did not mean that the operation did not take place. He was just not aware, and that is normal. So, there is no conflict of positions at all.

 

 Sir, as to whether what was reported in the newspaper was correct, again, the difficulty we have is that the person who was quoted to have not told the truth about the incidence was not part of the operation and was not a resident of the area where the operation took place. So, the tabloid quoted the Commissioner of the Division and interpreted his statement about not being aware, in their professional way, as they did.

 

That is the clarification I can give on that matter.

 

Mr Speaker, I thank you.  

 

Dr Musokotwane (Liuwa): Mr Speaker, the family in Shibuyunji is easily connected to a certain political individual in the country. I cannot mention names, but that fact is known. Further, that individual has, on many occasions, been accused and arrested for offences including treason, fraud and many others. Would the hon. Minister blame the public, in view of the many blank attempts to attach cases to that individual, if they conclude that all these efforts to link the individual to crime without any evidence are failing and that they are mere politically-motivated witch hunts?

 

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, I appreciate the hon. Member of Parliament for Liuwa for his very interesting follow-up question in which he has given an analysis of one political individual.

 

Sir, the police neither targets individuals nor their relatives because of their status in society. It is often said that no one is above the law. So, whether the people in question are related to a political individual is not relevant to the Zambia Police Service. If, today, as I am here in Lusaka, some relatives of mine are searched in Shiwang’andu, why should that affect me directly?  They are individuals who should account for their own actions. Things do not work that way.

 

Mr Speaker, without drawing you into the debate, I will say that you come from the other side, the Bench, where you spent time adjudicating on these matters. So, you know that no one goes to the authorities voluntarily to say he/she committed a crime. Everybody is innocent until the police prove them guilty. Sometimes, even those who are caught red-handed drop what they had on them and say they are innocent, and it is up to the police to prove them guilty.

 

Mr Speaker, for the Police Service, there is no such thing as discounting suspicions until the officers are reasonably convinced that they can ignore what they have been told is a criminal act. There are many people in our correctional facilities, and the beauty of being in this business is that the people who look innocent end up being convicted of very interesting cases. So, to the police, they were not looking at the relative of anybody, and that is why I cautioned that we be careful about the things that we jump into. If I am here in Lusaka and do not know what my relative is doing in Shiwang’andu, but I rush there and jump into his or her issues, I may just end up implicating myself. Many a time, we have had clients whose parents have come crying and saying that their child is innocent but, as things unfold, we discover that the person they were saying is innocent is actually behind some heinous crimes that we have convicted people of. So, let us not assert the innocence of people with whom we do not live, be they our relatives or not. That is why I am saying that we should depoliticise this matter. If my relative has been suspected of something, I will willingly wait to see what comes out of the investigation instead of trying to make political capital out of it. That will not do anyone good.

 

Mr Speaker, this country is for all of us, and we have set laws for ourselves. That is why we have the police. So, I wish to tell Hon. Dr Musokotwane that there was no such a thing he asks. If his relatives were found wanting in Liuwa today, they would be followed as individuals, not because they are related to him.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Mr Speaker: In addition to the twenty indications on the Electronic Chamber (e-Chamber), I have six others on the Zoom platform, and I want to recognise them as follows: The hon. Member for Serenje, the hon. Member for Zambezi West, the hon. Member for Lukulu East, the hon. Member for Msanzala, the hon. Member for Chienge and the hon. Member for Keembe. So, I will alternate between the two lists.

 

 I now go to the Zoom list.

 

Mr Kabanda (Serenje): Mr Speaker, I have been following the hon. Minister’s responses to the various questions that have been posed. Is there a class of people in the country who are not supposed to be subjected to the laws of this country in as far as criminal investigations are concerned? I seek the hon. Minister’s explanation on this matter.

 

Mr Speaker: I will not allow the hon. Minister to answer that question because he has already made the answer clear.

 

Hon. Members, we have a lot of work to do. So, let us think through some of these questions, especially those whose answers we already know, anyway. For example, we know that nobody is above the law, including the person who is speaking now. He is also not above the law. So, we can save some precious time by focusing on the hon. Minister of Home Affairs’ response. I am already sensing some consistency in his responses, and this might compel me, at some point, to direct that we move on in order to balance the conduct of our business. I was in a meeting this morning in which I was urged to be balancing our business. So, I will see how the pattern will evolve in the next few minutes, as we go back to the e-Chamber.

 

Mr Kintu (Solwezi East): Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for the answers he has given on the Floor of this House.

 

Sir, the hon. Minister has indicated that the police were looking for something. Now, we are trying to look at the intelligence of this country and what was found at Shibuyunji and Chisamba. People are made to speculate and doubt the intelligence that the police or the military are getting. Are we not going to see things like what happened in Mongu, where a person was charged with treason when, in fact, he had not done anything pertaining to that offence?

 

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, the difficulty I have with the question from the hon. Member of Parliament for Solwezi East is that it is not clear. He is talking about what was found in Shibuyunji, but my responses are very clear, and I do not know what the hon. Member really wants to know. He is making assumptions of what might, or might not, happen but, until such a time that the investigations are concluded, we will not be able to say what the next cause of action will be because I do not want to join the speculative mode he has gone into.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Ms Kucheka (Zambezi West): Mr Speaker, I hope my question has not been asked because I was off air for a little bit.

 

Sir, what happened is in the public domain, as we have seen the holes that the police dug in search of whatever they were looking for. Is the hon. Minister happy with the findings of the police, if there were any?

 

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, at the expense of repeating myself, I will tell the hon. Member, since she was off air, that the investigations are still active. Therefore, I cannot state whether I am happy with what has been done so far or not.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Mr Mulunda (Siavonga) was inaudible.

 

Mr Speaker: We will go back to Zoom.

 

Dr Kalila (Lukulu East): was inaudible.

 

Mr Speaker: We go back to e-Chamber.

 

Mr Mukosa (Chinsali): Mr Speaker, in his response to the question asked by the hon. Member for Mwembezhi, the hon. Minister indicated that the search conducted in Shibuyunji was also conducted in two other places and that there have been no reports of the residents being traumatised in the other places, unlike what is being claimed in Mwembezhi. Also, in his response to the hon. Member for Liuwa, the hon. Minister said that police officers do not victimise individuals or target relatives of politicians. What efforts is the ministry making to ensure that people or politicians in Zambia do not politicise the work of the police like they politicised the three genuine police searches that were recently conducted by the police in three different places?

 

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, I appreciate the follow-up question from the hon. Member of Parliament for Chinsali. However, I partially responded to that question when I was responding to other questions.

 

Sir, I have said that it is important that we depoliticise the work of the police because the Police Service does not engage in unlawful activities. Instead, it makes sure that whatever it does in its operations is backed by the law, since its job is to protect all citizens and their property. It is, therefore, important that we allow the police space to do its work. Certainly, to try and make political capital out of an operation like the one the police conducted will not help anyone at all, and it will not stop police officers from doing their work. Let me take advantage of this question to give a classic example of what I am talking about. On Friday, last week, when the Her Honour the Vice-President was responding to questions from hon. Members of Parliament, as it happens on Fridays, some individuals who were masquerading as relatives to His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia stormed the Ministry of Home Affairs and went to the Permanent Secretary (PS). However, during the interaction, they misconduct themselves, and I am happy that the PS did not wait to verify whether what those characters were claiming was true; he acted and made sure that they were rounded up and locked up. What followed later was to just verify their claims, but the case they were arrested for still stands and they are appearing before the courts of law. That is how it is done. We have not heard anyone coming to say that the Head of State’s relatives were arrested.

 

Like you have guided, Sir, no one is above the law. We have colleagues, friends and relatives who have ended up in the correctional facilities. If we had a way, as individuals, we would have been doing something about it, but we allowed the law to take its course, and we take food for them when they are in incarceration.

 

I thank you, Sir

 

Mr Daka (Msanzala): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister talked about the principle of the ‘need to know’, according to which one does not disclose what one is going to do before embarking on an operation. How normal was it that some people were briefed before the operations took place? It means that if there was anything illegal, some of the people could have gone round to ask the culprit or would-be culprit to hide the evidence that the police was looking for.

 

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, what I stated is that when the police officers went to conduct the operation in Shibuyunji, they explained to the residents that they were going to carry out a search, and that just after the search, the residents were, again, briefed and made to sign the exit forms, as per the standard procedure. Maybe, the hon. Member did not get me correctly since in his view, I said people were briefed before the operations. That was not the case, as I was talking about the people who were affected by the investigation.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Mr Michelo (Bweengwa): Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for his responses. However, can he give me a scientific defence of why I and the citizens of Zambia cannot suspect that he and the Patriotic Front (PF) Government are behind the police operation that took place in Shibuyunji? Me and … (Inaudible) … Opposition political party leaders have been harassed from the time he took over as Minister of Home Affairs.

 

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member of Parliament for Bweengwa, I did not follow your question.

 

Mr Michelo: Mr Speaker, I would like the hon. Minister to give me a scientific defence as to why the citizens of Zambia and I should not suspect that the hon. Minister and the PF Government were behind the police operation in Shibuyunji merely to implicate opposition political party leaders, who have been harassed from the time he took over the position of Minister of Home Affairs.

 

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, I acknowledge the follow-up question from the hon. Member for Bweengwa. However, the difficulty I have with it is that the hon. Member is asking me to give a scientific response, but I do not know the scientific response he wants me to give. In any case, we do not do scientific research when carrying out our work.

 

Sir, I am not a minister of police; I am Minister of Home Affairs, with more than thirteen departments and nineteen portfolio functions. Time and again, I have stated that I do not micro- manage the Zambia Police Service in its operations because even as I am speaking here, people are being arrested and, at the same time, others are being protected and people’s property is being recovered in line with the mandate given to the Zambia Police Service. So, for someone to insinuate that we have targeted somebody for harassment as the hon. Member is doing is wrong. In fact, I advise my dear hon. Colleague that we should engage one another with sincerity. Certainly, to make such allegations is, to say the least, unfair to the people who sent us to this august House and a disingenuous way of doing our Parliamentary work. So, I advise the hon. Member to follow the matters as they unfold. I have no reason to target anyone. No reason at all.

 

Sir, we came out of the Opposition into the Government. So, I do not see how I can sit at the Ministry of Home Affairs and just think about one individual. I have the rest of the country to look after on behalf of the Head of State. That is the work I have been given. I am preoccupied with spearheading the transformation of institutions, making positive changes in the way the police carries out its work, and finding ways for the Zambia Correctional Service to look after people, the Immigration Department to work effectively in the modern era, the Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC) to be capacitated to do its work and the civil registration of our people to be improved in order to ensure that no one is left behind. That is the work I am preoccupied with. So, I have no time to start thinking about one individual who, probably, will lose elections more than six times.

 

Sir, we compete in politics, and we will do so this coming August. So, I have no time to sit at the Ministry of Home Affairs and scheme on how to deal with one individual. I do not even know where the relatives of the individual in question are in Shibuyunji. So, again, to allege that we are only targeting an individual is a disingenuous way of conducting Parliamentary work.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Ms Katuta (Chienge): Mr Speaker, the system kept logging me out. So, I may have missed the hon. Minister’s response regarding what I want to ask about.

 

Sir, I heard about the search on social media, but I want to know what is so special about the family that was searched in Shibuyunji compared with the other families that were searched.

 

Mr Speaker: In light of the responses that the hon. Minister has been making, I do not think I will invite him to respond to that question because I think he has repeatedly stated that, as far as he is concerned, the search was a police operation. I do not think it will be fair and right, especially on my part, to invite him to start explaining family trees and the like.

 

Mr Zimba (Chasefu): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister said that no one is above the law, and rightly so. I would just like to know if the search was a routine police operation. If it was, did the police conduct themselves in an unprofessional manner for the search to cause this hype?

 

Mr Speaker: Again, that question has already been answered.

 

Mr Kambita (Zambezi East): Sir, the order of events leading to the recent event is very clear. There seems to be a chronological order of events and police actions that seem to suggest that an individual, specifically, the main Opposition leader, is being targeted. In this case, a family connected to the same leader is involved. Going by the chronological events, why does the hon. Minister think that the public should not question the actions of the police? Further, why does he think that he has the audacity to come to this august House and threaten the public for asking questions on why the Zambia Police Service is acting in the manner it is, which seems to suggest that it is targeting an individual?

 

Mr Speaker: He has just answered that question.

 

Mr Mutaba (Mwandi) was inaudible.

 

Ms Kasune (Keembe): Mr Speaker, my question has been overtaken by events.

 

Ms Subulwa (Sioma): Mr Speaker, like you have guided, it is clear that no one is above the law, meaning that anyone can be questioned at any time. However, the issue of trauma cannot be neglected. So, my question to the hon. Minister is: What deliberate measures is he putting in place to provide counselling sessions for the victims of suspicions of involvement in crime so that they do not think that they are targeted or feel that they are questioned because of belonging to a particular grouping? If that is done, the questioning of people by the Zambia Police Service will be taken as a normal routine, and that will ease the work of the police.

 

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, I appreciate the follow-up question from the hon. Member for Sioma.

 

Sir, let me assure her that the police has procedures for engaging members of the public, be they suspects or other citizens, they deal with, depending on the circumstances. When dealing with people, its officers are mindful that they have to apply themselves according to the circumstances of the time and place of the operation. They follow procedures so that they do not traumatise their clients. Like I have said, it depends on what sort of operations they are engaged in.

 

Sir, on the aspect of targeting individuals, I assure the hon. Member that police officers are trained to serve citizens without fear or favour. What that means is that if they are looking for person A, they are not going to look for person B and C when they know where to find person A. So, it is wrong to think that in targeting some individual, the police went for that individual’s relatives. things do not work like that. The police know where to find Mr Kampyongo if they want him. So, they do not have to go and look for his relatives in Shiwang’andu. I cautioned that we avoid politicising matters that are not supposed to be politicised because we can end up implicating ourselves willingly or unwillingly.

 

Sir, my assurance to the hon. Member is that the police are trained to follow procedures and the law when dealing with their fellow citizens.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Mr Speaker: The complete list, as indicated to me, is now as follows:  the hon. Member for Mwembezhi, the hon. Member for Nkeyema, the hon. Member for Chikankata, the hon. Member for Kasempa, the hon. Member for Chilanga, the hon. Member for Luampa, the hon. Member for Mazabuka Central and the hon. Member for Itezhi-Tezhi. I have no other names beyond these, and I will end with them, anyway. There will be no further indications because I believe this is exhaustive.

 

Mr Jamba: Mr Speaker, as the one who asked the principal question, I hope that I will be allowed to ask another question.

 

Mr Speaker, in his response, the hon. Minister said that the people in Shibuyunji were not traumatised. However, when the armed people in masks went there, one child who had was going to school fainted while running away from them. So, I do not understand the hon. Minister when he says that there was no trauma. That said, let me say that the police officers who went there said that they were looking for sophisticated arms of destruction like guns and pistols. However, the document they left, which I saw, as Member of Parliament together with Headman Polobe, said that they did not find what they were looking for. In fact, we suspect that they wanted to plant something because they went to ma flowers and to a field where they said there was dagga.

 

Mr Speaker, what makes the hon. Minister think that the people of Mwembezhi cannot suspect that the police were on an operation plant things in the place so that the next time, they can say that the people there have instruments of mass destruction, dagga or pistols in their fields?  What makes him think that he can run away from that?

 

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, I acknowledge the comments from the hon. Member of Parliament. However, I appeal to him to avoid trying to alarm the nation. I know that this is time for people to find a sense of belonging and that he is an Independent hon. Colleague. Certainly, where we are going, people will be jostling to find a sense of belonging. He IS talking about a farm, but I did not speak about any farm belonging to the person he mentioned. So, I advise him again not to make insinuations he cannot substantiate. In their quest to protect citizens, police officers do not plant things as he alleged. They do not work like that. Were that the case, they would not have conducted the search in the manner that they did. So, in as much as he wants to speak for his people in the constituency, he should reduce on making alarming lamentations and statements because when the security situation deteriorates in Shibuyunji, he will certainly not have a peaceful constituency. Where is he going to run to if that happens? For him to do his work and perform his Parliamentary duties, it is because he knows that there is someone who is protecting everyone. So, let him not cast such aspersions on the Zambia Police because he will need it, and it is there for all of us. He is part of the Government. So, it is important that he respects the institutions that are there to protect citizens.

 

Mr Speaker, in his question, the hon. Member asked whether we were aware that the search traumatised residents, and that is what I responded to. We are not aware. So, if he is bringing information forward, there is a normal and formal way he can bring it to us and show that a particular person who was going to school fell down during that operation. Then, appropriate action will be taken. To try to be emotional and make all sorts of innuendos will not help.

 

Mr Speaker, the police did not just dream up the operation. The country is too big for it to target one place. So, I advise my dear hon. Colleague to be patient. We are available to respond to any matters that can be raised.

 

Sir, even as we are trying to align ourselves to certain groupings, we can still be appreciated and relevant in different ways.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Mr Mbangweta (Nkeyema): Sir, I think it must be understood that Zambians, including those in Shibuyunji, pay the taxes that sustain the police. So, when people ask questions, they ought not to be threatened because it is their right to –

 

Mr Speaker:  Order, hon. Member for Nkeyema!

 

I have already gone over that ground. If anybody, especially an hon. Member of Parliament, were being threatened for asking questions, we would not have spent this much time on this matter. There is nobody being threatened here. As I have said before, I would not permit the hon. Minister to do that. So, if you have a question, get to it.

 

Mr Mbangweta: Mr Speaker, is it part of police duties to dig up people’s fields and leave them without burying the dug-up parts?

 

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, police officers do all sorts of things as they conduct their operations. I cannot get into the details of how they dig a hole or bury it. Those are operational matters, and I think the officers know how they deal with such matters.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Mr Speaker gave the Floor to Mr Mwiinga, but he was not available.

 

Ms Tambatamba (Kasempa): Mr Speaker, just recently, the President came to Parliament to talk about the National Values and Principles … (inaudible) … that functioning society is one that is attractive for investment, peaceful and attractive even to those who lend money.

 

Sir, I know that the International Monetary Fund (IMF) is in the country negotiating with the Zambian Government for a package. Does the hon. Minister confer with his colleagues in other ministries using the multi-sectoral approach to ensure that any action taken by the police does not interfere with programmes that are supposed to support the welfare of the community? I ask this because some of those who lend money to us may be averse to seeing a Police State and may not be attracted to investing in such a state. Could the hon. Minister tell us whether he consults with his colleagues at the Ministry of Finance or the Ministry of Community Development and Social Welfare to ensure that police actions are not misplaced, and harmful to the economy and welfare of the people?

 

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, the Government operates as a government. So, there is no such thing as a ministry operating in its own way without interacting with other ministries. We are one Government under the leadership of His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia, Dr Edgar Chagwa Lungu. So, we work from a multi-sectoral approach, be it in dealing with matters of the Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) or any other matter. In this regard, we are aware of the discussions between the Ministry of Finance and our bilateral Co-operating Partners in many sectors, including those to whom she referred as partners who lend money to the country.

 

Sir, our responsibility is to create a safe environment in which citizens enjoy their fundamental rights. That is our mandate. Further, those who come to visit Zambia should be safe while they are here and go back safe. On that account, we are renowned, not only on the continent, but also beyond it, for being a peaceful country. That has not happened by accident; it is institutions like the Zambia Police Service that have anchored the peace that we enjoy today, and they will continue doing that for the people of Zambia because that is their mandate. That is also the only way we can enable people to come and negotiate with the Ministry of Finance; it is by ensuring that there is peace and a conducive environment.

 

Mr Speaker, we do not allow the police to take unlawful actions just to appease those we collaborate with; it has a mandate, and that mandate is executed in adherence to certain legal frameworks. The institution is a law enforcement agency. So, it does not take actions that are outside the law; officers who do that are visited by the law and put in line.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Mrs M. L. Phiri (Chilanga): Mr Speaker, my question has been overtaken by events.

 

Mr Chikote (Luampa): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister stated in his response that the investigations were not conducted in Shibuyunji only, but also in Chisamba and the other place. Were the investigations carried out in Shibuyunji and the other places related to the same crime?

 

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, I do not want to get too much into such details. The searches could have been related to the same case or different ones depending on what information the police is working with.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Mr Jamba: Mr Speaker, I am asking these questions because I am the Member of Parliament for the area concerned. I do not want to be aligned with anybody because I do not need to be.

 

Sir, the people of Mwembezhi are afraid to sleep in their houses. Are the hon. Minister and his officers in the Ministry of Home Affairs able to go and assure the people that they can start living their normal lives, since the police officers said that they did not find what they were looking for? Can they go and tell the people that the police officers were misled by their suspicions, that everything is okay now and that the people can start living normal lives? Is the hon. Minister saying that he will go? 

 

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, I am also responding to him because I know that he is the representative of the people of Mwembezhi. That is why I am responding to his questions and many others that are coming through. 

 

Sir, I may not be the one to go to Mwembezhi, but he can reassure the people of the area that those who are law-abiding citizens must continue living their normal lives. There is no need for them to fear if, indeed, they have done nothing wrong. Only those who may have something to fear should fear. He can assure his people that they can continue living their lives. However, like I said in one of my earlier responses, the police will be in the area to ensure that no one takes advantage of the situation.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Mr Shabula (Itezhi-Tezhi): Mr Speaker, what is happening in this country is what happened in Germany in the time of Hitler, who used the Brown Shirts, the secret service, to intimidate people. Is the hon. Minister aware that the people of Zambia are aware that this Patriotic Front (PF) Government is targeting the United Party for National Development (UPND) president, Mr Hakainde Hichilema, his family and the UPND family? Is he also aware that the citizens know what is happening and that whatever happens, they cannot trust this Government and they will not believe it?

 

Mr Speaker: The hon. Minister has addressed that issue repeatedly. So, I will not request him to respond.

 

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Speaker, in asking the hon. Minister my question, I want to cite an example or two, to show why the public perception has been that the operation at Mutinta Hichilema’s parents’ house was an act of police harassment or State intimidation. The examples I am giving are all crime-related.

 

Mr Speaker, here was gassing in this country.

 

Mr Ngulube Interjected

 

Mr Speaker: Order, hon. Members for Kabwe Central!

 

You are a whip. So, you cannot be making running commentaries.

 

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, I said I will cite a couple of examples to show why people may think that this was a targeted operation.

 

Sir, firstly, in the period prior to Mr Hichilema’s arrest on a vexatious and frivolous charge of treason, the Deputy Secretary-General (DSG) of the Patriotic Front (PF), Madam Mumbi Phiri, was quoted saying, “We will smoke him out of his house like a rat.” A day later, police battalions converged at Mr Hichilema’s house, broke his house and took him like a common criminal and eventually transported him back and forth from prison in a dog kennel. Secondly, there was gassing in this country, and a Mr Geoffrey Bwalya Mwamba indicated to the country that he knew the people who were behind the gassing incidences. The police have not arrested anyone even in the face of that information being volunteered. Finally, when the Lusaka City Market was gutted, Her Honour the Vice-President, Mrs Wina, seemed to know who was behind its burning.

 

Mr Speaker, we are all bound by the law to remove crime in our country. However, a place called Intercity Bus Terminus, here at Dedan Kimathi Road, houses criminals who masquerade –

 

Mr Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Mazabuka Central!

 

I have given you sufficient latitude to give a preface. Get to the question.

 

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, I am now asking the question.

 

Sir, there are criminals at the Intercity Bus Terminus just like at Kamugodi at Soweto Market, and the hon. Minister of Home Affairs knows this; there is no hiding behind a finger. Why can the same police not go and normalise life at Intercity Bus Terminus where people are beaten up savagely by members of his party for simply being identified with a different political persuasion, which is not a crime?

 

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member for Mazabuka Central, what has happened is that we have shifted from Shibuyunji and gone to another location; a location has been picked, and you would like the hon. Minster of Home Affairs to give an account. While you have the right to make him accountable for what is happening in the area you have indicated, you cannot do it in this context. You have gone to a different area. I had given you an opportunity to ask your question and that is your question.

 

We will proceed.

 

_______

 

BILLS

 

SECOND READING

 

THE HEALTH PROFESSIONS (Amendment) BILL, 2021

 

The Minister of Health (Dr Chanda): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

 

Mr Speaker, may I start by thanking you for giving me the opportunity to present a policy statement on the Health Professions (Amendment) Bill No. 3 of 2021 before this honourable House.

 

Mr Speaker, the Government, under the able leadership of His Excellency Dr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, President of the Republic of Zambia, is committed to providing universal health coverage without leaving any one behind. This is to be done through the primary health care approach using promotive, preventive, curative, rehabilitative and palliative interventions. For these interventions to be effectively and efficiently delivered, there has to be a very clear policy and legal framework that will support health service delivery in line with the expectations of Zambians. It is with this background that the Health Professions Act No. 24 of 2009 was enacted to, among other objectives, regulate professional practice and conduct, and licence health facilities. So, the Act is a critical piece of legislation that ensures that the safety of patients and the general public is guaranteed. However, you may wish to note that it has been over a decade since the Act was enacted and that a number of changes have taken place, creating the need to amend the Act in order to make it responsive to the challenges that relate to the regulation of health professionals.

 

Sir, the object of the Bill that is before this august House is to amend the Health Professions Act No. 24 of 2009 so as revise the composition of the Health Professions Council of Zambia (HPCZ). The Bill seeks to amend section 4 of the Act by adding sub-section (3) and (4). The provisions in sub-section 3 allows the Minister to enlarge the functions of the council or board, as long as they are consistent with the Act, so that the functions are in tandem with the prevailing situation. This is a necessary amendment, as it reflects the current practices in ensuring that statutory boards perform functions that are consistent with the objectives of the Act, which means that the Minister will not need to seek an amendment to the Act every time the council’s functions need to be enlarged, so that there is smooth and effective implementation of the Act. The second amendment seeks to introduce performance contracts. The House may wish to note that the Government of His Excellency Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, President of the Republic of Zambia, is committed to ensuring that key principles of good governance are adhered to in public service delivery. To this effect, Cabinet Office is rolling out performance contracts to statutory boards. This is aimed at enhancing the performance and accountability of statutory boards.

 

Mr Speaker, as far as the amendment to paragraph 1 of the First Schedule is concerned, the background is that the Cabinet has observed that the appointments of Permanent Secretaries (PSs) to some boards compromises good governance principles. Allowing PSs to be board members when they are also the Controlling Officers works against the key principles of good governance because it becomes a challenge for them, being board members and party to a decision, to provide guidance on matters requiring it and, at the same time, be the administrative heads who handle any queries with regard to the operations of the board. The amendment to paragraph 1 of the First Schedule, therefore, simply implements the Government policy direction aimed at curing a problem to do with good governance.

 

Mr Speaker, in conclusion, I wish to inform the House that the Bill is non-controversial and progressive. Therefore, I urge all hon. Members in this august House to support it.

 

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

 

Dr Kalila (Lukulu East): Mr Speaker, thank you for this opportunity granted the Committee on Health, Community Development and Social Services to make some comments on the Health Professions (Amendment) Bill No. 3 of 2021. The Committee was tasked to scrutinise the Bill by the House on Tuesday, 9^th February, 2021.

 

Mr Speaker, as the hon. Members may be aware, the proposed Bill intends to amend the Health Professions Act No. 24 of 2009 so as to revise the composition of the Health Professions Council of Zambia (HPCZ), among other objectives. In carrying out the important task of scrutinising the Bill, your Committee interacted with various stakeholders, as usual.

 

Sir, your Committee puts on record its support for the Bill. However, allow me to apprise the House on some of the concerns raised by the stakeholders on the amendments to the Bill.

 

Sir, regarding sub-section (3) of Clause 2 of the Bill, stakeholders expressed concern over the provision for the Minister of Health to issue general and specific directives relating to the performance of the council’s functions. Stakeholders were of the view that the proposed provisions could interfere with the independence of the council, as they seem to give the Minister discretionary powers to direct the council, and such powers can be abused. In view of this, the Committee recommends that the amendment, at least, specifies the nature of the directives that the Minister can issue to the council.

 

Sir, on the amendment in Clause 3 that substitutes the Permanent Secretary (PS) with a representative of the Ministry of Health on the HPCZ, while the Committee supports this Bill, some stakeholders expressed concern that the move would weaken the council further by reducing the representation of the ministry to a potentially lower ranking official. They, in this respect, stated that the current position allowed the council mandate and regular access to the PS, which enabled the council to function smoother. Given the foregoing, your Committee recommends that the minimum qualification/position and minimum number of years served under the ministry be prescribed for such a representative. Furthermore, in order to guard against the appointment of unqualified persons as representatives, your Committee recommends that the ministry’s representative on the council be a holder of a senior position in the ministry to avoid underrepresentation and misrepresentation on the council.

 

Sir, in conclusion, I thank you for your guidance throughout your Committee’s deliberations on the Bill. I also pay tribute to the stakeholders who interacted with your Committee. Lastly, I thank the Office of the Clerk for the guidance rendered during your Committee’s deliberations.

 

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

 

Dr Chanda: Mr Speaker, I thank the Committee on Health, Community Development and Social Services for supporting the Bill categorically, although with a few concerns raised and clarifications sought.

 

Let me just clarify, Mr Speaker, that as I read the statement on enlarging the functions of the Minister in terms of the HPCZ, the words to mark are “consistent with the Act.” The provisions in the new sub-section (3) allow the Minister to enlarge the functions of the HPCZ Board as long as the functions remain consistent with the Act. Nothing will be done outside the Act. The Act is the law, and the Minister cannot abuse his power because he is not above the law. There is also the phrase “in tandem with the prevailing situation.” So, I think the Act, itself, is a limiting factor for the Minister.

 

Mr Speaker, let me also talk about the recommendation by your Committee to overprescribe the qualifications of the Minister as a representative on the board.

 

Sir, the board is not unique. There are many statutory boards to which Ministers nominate representative from the sector, and I think it will be a departure from almost a practice to overprescribe. Further, to overprescribe to the extent of specifying the years served, qualifications and the like, we would have to amend all the other Acts. We should find comfort in knowing that for someone to find themselves in the health or legal sectors, it means that they are professionals. So, we should not tie the Minister’s hands in nominating one representative on a board that may have twelve or fourteen members. A nominee is only one of the representatives.

 

Mr Speaker, again, I thank your Committee for recognising that removing PSs from boards actually promotes good governance.

 

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

 

Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

 

Committed to a committee of the Whole House.

 

Committee on Thursday, 25^th February, 2021.

 

THE CITIZEN ECONOMIC EMPOWERNMENT (Amendment) BILL, 2021

 

The Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry (Mr Yaluma): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

 

Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to deliver my statement on the Citizens Economic Empowerment (Amendment) Bill, No. 5 of 2021.

 

Sir, at its second special meeting held on 1^st February, 2021, the Cabinet accepted my ministry’s recommendation that the Citizens Economic Empowerment (Amendment) Bill, 2021, be approved for publication and presentation to Parliament during the current Meeting. This follows the Government’s decision, after a series of consultations, to harmonise all legislation by removing Permanent Secretaries (PSs), the Attorney-General and the Secretary to the Treasury from the boards or committees of Statutory bodies and other Government institutions.

 

Rationale

 

Sir, the rationale for amending the Citizens Economic Empowerment Act of 2006 is the removal of all the PSs and the Attorney-General from the committees or boards in order to promote a good governance system and reduce conflicts in the execution of their roles. This will allow objective and independent decision-making by the members of the committees and promote the observance of the tenets of good governance. Further, the amendment seeks to keep the office of the PS from influencing decisions of the Citizens Economic Empowerment Commission (CEEC) to allow the commission to make objective and independent decisions for the betterment of the nation. The current situation, in which PSs are members of the commission’s board compromises adherence to the tenets of good governance because the PSs sit in the meetings where, with other members of the board, they come up with resolutions that are later sent to their offices for consideration and approval. This defeats the ends of good governance.

 

Objective

 

Sir, the objective of the Bill is to amend the Citizens Economic Empowerment Act, 2006, so as to revise the composition of the CEEC.

 

Proposed Amendments

 

Mr Speaker, in order to address the identified challenge, the Bill proposes an amendment to section 7(1) of the principal Act by the deletion of paragraphs (b), (c), (d) and (e), and substitution therefor of  the following:

 

• (b)   a representative of the Secretary to the Treasury;
• (c)     a representative of the ministry responsible for commerce trade and industry;
• (d)     a representative of the ministry responsible for labour and social security; and
• (e)      a representative of the Attorney-General.”

 

Expected Outcomes

 

Sir, the amendment of the Act is aimed at enhancing effective decision-making. The amendment is expected to promote a good governance system and ensure that the decisions made by the commission’s board are objective and independent from the influence of the PS. The presence of PSs in some meetings compromises the decisions of the board, as some members of the board may not feel comfortable to go against the views of the PSs, who may be their supervisors. The enactment of the Bill is also expected to promote timely implementation of national programmes, as the removal of PSs from the commission will give the latter ample time to commit to other national duties and reduce conflict in the execution of their respective roles.

 

Mr Speaker, finally, in light of the information provided above, it is necessary to present to Parliament a Bill to amend the Citizen Economic Empowerment Act of 2006 so as to revise the composition of the commission in order to promote good governance system. I, therefore, urge the hon. Members of this august House to fully support the Bill.

 

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

 

Dr Musokotwane (Liuwa): Mr Speaker, the Committee on National Economy, Trade and Labour Matters was tasked to scrutinise the Citizens Economic Empowerment (Amendment) Bill No. 5 of 2021 in accordance with its mandate, as spelt out in Standing Order No. 157(2).

 

Sir, the proposed amendments in the Bill follow the Cabinet’s decision to revise the composition of boards by the removal of some senior Government officials from some boards and committees of public institutions. This decision is aimed at enhancing adherence to good corporate governance principles and eliminating conflicts of interest. Particularly for the Citizens Economic Empowerment Commission (CEEC), the Bill proposes that the Permanent Secretaries (PSs) in the ministries responsible for commerce, trade and industry, and labour and social security; the Secretary to the Treasury and the Attorney-General be removed from the board of commissioners and replaced with representatives from their respective institutions.

 

Mr Speaker, as hon. Members are privy to the report of the Committee, I will only highlight key issues that emanated from the Committee’s interactions with stakeholders.

 

Sir, most of the stakeholders who appeared before the Committee  supported the Bill and were of the view that the common practice of appointing senior Government officials to multiple boards potentially reduces their effectiveness owing to a competing demands from the various boards they sit on and their substantives roles. However, other stakeholders contended that the removal of PSs, the Secretary to the Treasury and the Attorney-General from the commission poses the risk of weakening the oversight role played by these principal officers hitherto, which could then compromise transparency, accountability and integrity in statutory bodies.

 

Sir, following submissions by various stakeholders, the Committee observes with concern that the Bill is silent on the qualifications for one to be nominated as a representative to the Board of Commissioners. Taking cognisance of the unique mandate of the commission, the Committee strongly recommends that the Bill explicitly provides that a person nominated to represent an institution or an individual should have the expertise relevant for the execution of the mandate of the CEEC, as outlined in Section 6 of the Citizens Economic Empowerment Act No.9 of 2006. This requirement is apart from one being a representative of the institution or of an individual, as is the case for the Attorney-General and the Secretary to the Treasury.

 

Mr Speaker, in order to uphold the critical role hitherto played by PSs and other principal officers, the Committee urges the Government to implement practical measures in addition to establishing a corporate governance code of good practice for statutory bodies in order to provide an effective mechanism through which oversight of boards would be exercised.

 

Mr Speaker, the Committee supports the Bill and urges the Executive to consider the recommendations in this report positively in order to improve the piece of legislation.

 

Sir, in conclusion, the Committee expresses gratitude to all the stakeholders who made oral and written submissions on the Bill. The Committee further thanks the offices of the Speaker and the Clerk of the National Assembly for the guidance and services rendered to it during the consideration of the Bill.

 

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

 

Mrs Chinyama (Kafue): Mr Speaker, from the outset, I would like to state that I agree with the proposal to amend the Bill in order to provide for the representation of ministries by officers other than Permanent Secretaries (PSs) on the board for the reasons given by the Committee. I also agree with the Committee’s other observations and recommendations. For instance, it says that a code of practice should be introduced to help members appointed to such Committees, and that the people appointed to serve on boards, other than just being PSs’ representatives, should also be qualified and knowledgeable enough to perform the functions that are given to them. Indeed, this will help with what, at one point, was a worrisome trend; that of people who were not very deserving finding themselves on boards, some of which are them very important, where qualified personnel would do a better job and ensure that the purpose for which such boards are established is served.

 

Mr Speaker, I also want to use this opportunity to say that even as we seek to replace the PSs, we must also look critically at whether the institutions for which the boards are established are really carrying out their duties and discharging their mandates as required. The Citizen Economic Empowerment Commission (CEEC) –

 

Mrs Chinyama was inaudible.

 

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member for Kafue, have we lost you?

 

Mrs Chinyama: Mr Speaker, am I back?

 

Mr Speaker: Yes. Please, continue.

 

Mrs Chinyama: Mr Speaker, I was saying that, over the years, the CEEC, which had given a lot of hope to Zambians when it came on the scene, has, in my opinion, left much to be desired in its operations. We have not seen the institution deliver on its mandate as expected. While there have been many applications for funding from different institutions, very little funding has come through. For example, not too long ago, there was some funding for youth empowerment for which the youths of Kafue applied. However, to date, we have not heard the results of those –

 

Mrs Chinyama was inaudible.

 

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member for Kafue, we have lost you again.

 

Mrs Chinyama: Mr Speaker, I hope my point, which is that we expect the CEEC to do better than it has done in the past, has been heard. We have not received any feedback on the proposals that were submitted to the institution, which was established to provide funding for youth empowerment and other empowerment programmes, and I cited the example of Kafue. So, I hope, and this is my point, that the institutions will not just be there on paper with well-constituted boards, but fail to deliver to expectations on their mandate.

 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

Mr Speaker: I will take the last three debates from the following hon. Members: the hon. Deputy Chief Whip, the hon. Member for Chilubi and the hon. Member for Kanchibiya.

 

Mr Ngulube (Kabwe Central): Mr Speaker, thank you for according me the opportunity to add my voice the support for the proposed amendments to the Citizens Economic Empowerment Commission Act. However, before I get into my debate, I just want to briefly congratulate Hon. Mutale Nalumango on her appointment as vice-president of the United Party for National Development (UPND). She is the party’s first-ever female vice-president. I think the UPND is now learning to appoint women in more serious governance positions. However, we just do not know for how long she will be in that position because after losing elections, …

 

Mr Speaker: Order, hon. Deputy Chief Whip!

 

That is not our business.

 

Mr Ngulube: Mr Speaker, I thank you for your guidance.

 

Sir, as I continue, I want to state that the Patriotic Front (PF) would like to see a complete separation of powers between members of the boards and the Executive for the sake of in good governance. For instance, Permanent Secretaries (PSs), the Secretary to the Treasury and the Attorney-General should not also find themselves on boards because the boards should be answerable to the Executive. So, this decision is welcome, as we are now going to have no interference. If the PS, who is the controlling officer, also finds himself/herself as a member of the board, there is likely to be conflict of interests or conflict of decisions. Just like it was put across, there may also be intimidation, as some people may not openly differ with the PS for fear of the unknown. Therefore, I support this move by the PF Government because the Citizens Economic Empowerment Commission (CEEC) is a key institution in the empowerment of our people.

 

Sir, we are aware that some of the people who were members of the CEEC Board were not very effective and that, as a result, the oversight role of the PSs was compromised. For example, on boards where there were more than one PS, one PS  would not take a fellow PS who made a wrong decision.

 

Mr Speaker, representatives of the Attorney-General or the Secretary to the Treasury and the rest will still do the job that their principals are now doing. So, let me add one more line: President Edgar Lungu would like to see efficient boards. He does not want people to just sit on the board by virtue of being appointed; he wants to see better results. The CEEC Board has the important mandate of ensuring that more and more citizens are empowered and that value is added to the economic diversification agenda of the PF Government.

 

Mr Speaker, allow me to also say that the PF Government will continue refining our laws in order to make them relevant and to ensure that the people who benefit from the laws are not left to wonder what is happening. That is why, in the PF, we speak the same language in the morning, in the afternoon and in the evening; you will never hear us reject delimitation today and see us come back crying for it tomorrow. The PF is very consistent, and because of its consistency, all our laws speak the same language. It is unfortunate that some people can reject a Bill on the Floor of the House and come back the following day asking for it and claiming that it is progressive.

 

Sir, this proposal is non-contentious. So, we expect our colleagues to support it whole-heartedly. 

 

Sir, with those few remarks, allow me to thank you and say, may God bless you.

 

Mr Fube (Chilubi): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving the good people of Chilubi the opportunity to add their voice to the debate on this important amendment Bill.

 

Sir, the Citizens Economic Empowerment Commission (CEEC) is not an ordinary commission; it is one that has to deal with citizens’ welfare and livelihood, and social justice. It is also a vehicle for the Government to facilitate growth of the informal sector and its transformation into the formal sector, especially since it is meant to provide capital for many different things, such as plant machinery. That said, I will limit myself to the proposed amendment, which is limited to composition.

 

Sir, the composition, among other outcomes, is meant to promote good governance and proper decision making.  Another effect that should come out of it is the timely implementation of programmes linked to the CEEC.

 

Sir, I was under the impression that within the board, there were some people who would be uncomfortable with the presence of the Permanent Secretary (PS), and with this or that. I think that under the principles of good corporate governance, it should be made known that under the collective responsibility principle, that would not happen under normal circumstances, especially given that citizens have cried, day and night, that the balance of power differentials in any board, be it the CEEC Board or any other, should also respect the principle of subjunction, in which anyone who is in a board is representing a particular interest that, at the end of the day, adds value to the mandate of the institution.

 

Sir, looking at the implementation and the proposed composition, which includes, from what I heard from the hon. Minister, a representative of the Secretary to the Treasury, a representative of the Ministry of Labour and Social Security, a representative of the Office of the Attorney-General and a representative of the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry, we, the citizens, expect that not only will the programmes be expedited, but also that the quality of the programmes of this very important commission that has been established to bridge the gap between the haves and the have-nots will be high. Given that the larger chunk of our economy is driven by the private sector, the private sector is hopeful that this will be a window for it to get some financing of some sort, apart from the financing they get from the banks.

 

Mr Speaker, I would not do justice to this matter if I did not say that we, the citizens, expect the board that will be constituted to look at deliverables and be result-oriented because this is one of the commissions that has been ridiculed in public.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Dr Malama (Kanchibiya): Mr Speaker, I agree with many of our citizens who put their hope in the Patriotic Front (PF) Government. You can see members of the United Party for National Development (UPND) and the PF are supporting the leadership of His Excellency the President, Dr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, and the principles of accountability.

 

Mr Speaker, the Citizens Economic Empowerment Commission (CEEC) is an important institution, and Permanent Secretaries (PSs) are overladen with many responsibilities on their shoulders. The Government has also seen it fit to ensure that the youths of the Copperbelt and Lusaka provinces; the mini bus drivers, those who work at markets and those in rural areas who are looking for empowerment, have a responsive board that will provide leadership for the CEEC. Therefore, I totally agree with the hon. Minister’s statement and observations.

 

Mr Speaker, so many of our citizens, including members of the UPND, have said that what the PF Government has proposed is good for 2021 and going forward. Therefore, to my fellow citizens who concur that what is being proposed is good for empowerment, I say that we have one thing to do, and that is to ensure that the Government that is coming up with such good proposals is given another lease of life in 2021 so that the principles of good governance continue being implemented to benefit the people of the Western, Southern, Eastern, Central and Copperbelt provinces; the of Chimwemwe and Chamboli. The CEEC should be able to target the women’s groups and empower them.

 

Sir, removing PSs from boards means that they will go back to their ministries where they should fully concentrate on controlling the accounts, since they are the controlling officers. For example, the ministries responsible for education will now function well because their PSs have been freed from the responsibility of sitting on boards. The hon. Ministry of Energy will also work hard to ensure that power is provided to the rural areas. Currently, instead of looking at the file on the supply of power to Chundaponde in Kanchibiya, the PS in the Ministry of Energy goes to attend a board meeting. Now, the President and the PF Government want people to sit at their desks; it wants to free their time so that they concentrate on their core mandate, and this will create hope for our people. With such good principles, we will see Zambia get to where we want it to be.

 

Mr Speaker, I urge the PS at the Ministry of Home Affairs to find time to look into, say, the convention that was held, whether it was on WhatsApp or other means, by the UPND. We congratulate the party on appointing its first female vice-president, but we are concerned and, the PS in the Ministry of Home Affairs, who now has enough time, should look at why an organisation should have 28.6 per cent female representation when, as you know very well, we are talking –

 

Mr Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Kanchibiya!

 

We have veered off the subject.

 

Dr Malama: Mr Speaker, let us get back to the subject of ensuring that the PSs have enough time to look at their core mandates and correct what may be going wrong. Some organisation has 28.6 per cent representation of women when we need 50 per cent. The women of Zambia must demand for 50 per cent representation from that political party.

 

Mr Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Kanchibiya!

 

You have gone off track again. Get back to the CEEC.

 

Dr Malama: Mr Speaker, we truly appreciate your wisdom.

 

Sir, back to the CEEC, we want more women empowered –

 

Mr Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Member for Kanchibiya, please, do not tempt me to curtail your debate when you are almost ending it.

 

Dr Malama: Mr Speaker, I yield the Floor to free time for my hon. Colleagues to also debate.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Mr Yaluma: Mr Speaker, firstly, I thank the chairperson of the Committee on National Economy, Trade and Labour Matters, and the whole Committee for the support they have given us on this Bill. I also thank Hon. Chinyama, the Member of Parliament for Kafue; Hon. Ngulube, the Member of Parliament for Kabwe Central; Hon. Fube, the Member of Parliament for Chilubi; and Hon. Dr Malama, the Member of Parliament for Kanchibiya, for their debates.

 

Secondly, Sir, let me comment on the selection of the members or directors of boards.

 

Sir, we are always requested to ask for the resumés of each individual we nominate for appointment to the boards. The resumés are then presented to the Cabinet and debated before the nominees are appointed. Further, the names of nominees are submitted by their respective institutions. For example, the Economic Association of Zambia (EAZ) would submit names, and every nominee is scrutinised.

 

Mr Speaker, finally, let me say that we are trying to improve the CEEC’s provision of deliverables. Yes, things are tight in the sense that we need money to meet the needs of everyone demanding for a service or financing for a particular venture. However, we will endeavour to ensure that the commission improves on that and that the able Government of the Republic of Zambia, led by the Patriotic Front (PF), provides sufficient funding to the institution.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

 

Committed to a committee of the Whole House.

 

Committee on Thursday 25^th February, 2021.

 

THE CONTROL OF GOODS (Amendment) BILL, 2021

 

Mr Yaluma: Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

 

Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to deliver my statement on the Control of Goods (Amendment) Bill No. 7 of 2021.

 

Mr Speaker, at its second special meeting held on 1^st February, 2021, the Cabinet accepted the recommendations by my ministry that the Control of Goods (Amendment) Bill No. 7 of 2021 be approved for publication and presentation to Parliament during the current Meeting. This follows the Government’s decision, after a series of consultations, to harmonise all legislation by removing PSs, the Attorney-General and the Secretary to the Treasury from boards or committees of statutory bodies and other Government institutions.

 

Rationale

 

Mr Speaker, the rationale for amending the Control of Goods Act No. 12 of 2004 is to remove all PSs from the Advisory Committee in order to promote a good governance system and reduce conflicts in PSs execution of their roles. This will allow for objective and independent decision making by members of the committee and promote adherence to the tenets of good governance. The amendment seeks to keep the office of the PS from influencing decisions of the Advisory Committee to allow the committee to make objective and independent decisions for the betterment of the nation. The current situation, in which PSs are members of the Advisory Committee compromises adherence to the tenets of good governance because the PS sits in meetings of the Advisory Committee in which, together with other members of the Committee, he/she comes up with resolutions that are later sent to her/him for consideration and approval after he/she was party to the decision making. This defeats the ends of good governance.

 

Objectives of the Bill

 

Mr Speaker, the object of the Bill is to amend the Control of Goods Act so as to revise the composition of the Advisory Committee.

 

Proposed Amendments

 

In order to address the identified challenge, the Bill proposes the amendment of Section 4(g) of the principal Act by –

 

1. the deletion of sub-section (1) and the substitution therefor of the following:

 

“(a)   the Director responsible for foreign trade in the ministry responsible for commerce, trade and industry;

 

“(b)   the Director responsible for domestic trade in the ministry responsible for commerce, trade and industry;

 

“(c)   the Director responsible for industry in the ministry responsible for commerce, trade and industry;

 

“(d)   a representative each for the ministries responsible for –

 

(i)      budget and economic affairs;

(ii)     foreign affairs; and

(iii)    agriculture;

        

“(e)   a representative of the Commissioner-General of the Zambia Revenue Authority;

 

“(f)    a representative of the Attorney-General; and

 

“(g)   two persons with knowledge and experience in matters relating to this Act.; and

 

1.  the deletion of sub-section (3) and the substitution therefor of the following:

 

1.   The Chairperson and Vice-Chairperson of the Advisory Committee shall be appointed by the Minister.”

 

Expected Outcomes

 

Mr Speaker, the amendment of the Control of Goods Act is aimed at enhancing effective decision making, and is expected to promote a good governance system and ensure that the decisions made by the Advisory Committee are objective and independent from the influence of the PS. The presence of the PSs in some meetings might compromise the decisions of the Advisory Committee, as some members of the board may not feel comfortable to go against the decisions or views of the PS, who might be their supervisor. The enactment of the Bill is also expected to promote timely implementation of national programmes, as the removal of PSs from the committee will give them ample time to commit to other national duties, and reduce conflict in the execution of their respective roles.

 

Mr Speaker, in conclusion, and in light of the information provided above, it is necessary to present to Parliament a Bill to amend the Control of Goods Act so as to revise the composition of the Advisory Committee and, in turn, to promote a good governance system. It is the hope of the ministry that the information provided will be useful to the Committee. I, therefore, urge the hon. Members of this august House to fully support this Bill.

 

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

 

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, in accordance with its terms of reference, the Committee was tasked to scrutinise the Control of Goods (Amendment) Bill No. 7 of 2021. In order to acquaint itself with the ramifications of the Bill, your Committee sought both written and oral submissions from stakeholders.

 

Mr Speaker, the Bill seeks to amend the Control of Goods Act, Cap 421 of the Laws of Zambia, so as to revise the composition of the Advisory Committee. The decision to amend the Act arose out of the realisation that the appointment of PSs to boards and committees compromises good governance principles. This is so because the PSs, who participate in making decisions at board or committee level also provide policy direction to the boards on behalf of the Government. This creates a conflict of interests as PSs execute their roles. 

 

Sir, most of the stakeholders who made submissions to your Committee supported the amendment of Section 4(g) of the principal Act so as to revise the composition of the Advisory Committee by replacing PSs with Directors or representatives of respective departments or ministries. The Bill also seeks to replace the Commissioner-General of the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) with a representative and to empower the Minister to appoint the Chairperson and Vice-Chairperson of the Advisory Committee.

 

Mr Speaker, more stakeholders who made submissions to your Committee supported the Bill. However, a concern was raised on the proposal to remove the PSs and the Commissioner-General of the ZRA from the Advisory Committee, informing your Committee that the proposed Advisory Committee would be composed of people below the rank of principal officers. The Directors would be expected to make recommendations to the Minister without the input of principal officers in the institutions. The stakeholders were concerned that such a situation might result in the undermining of the principal officers by the Advisory Committee, as the committee would carry out its functions to the exclusion of the principal officers.

 

Mr Speaker, your Committee supports the amendment of the Act in the manner set out in the Bill. However, it notes the absence of private sector representation on the Advisory Committee, but it has no doubt that the private sector has a critical role to play in the control of goods. The Committee also notes that the Bill proposes that the Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry appoints the Chairperson and Vice-Chairperson of the Advisory Committee. In view of this, the Committee urges the hon. Minister to appoint a qualified member from the private sector to one of the two positions.

 

Mr Speaker, the detailed observations and recommendations of the Committee are contained in the Committee’s report, and I have no doubt that hon. Members will take time to scrutinise them as we proceed to the subsequent stages of the Bill.

 

Mr Speaker, in conclusion, I wish, on behalf of the Committee, to express my gratitude to you for the guidance rendered throughout our deliberations on the Bill. The Committee also thanks the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly for the support rendered to it during its deliberations. Finally, the Committee is indebted to all the witnesses who appeared before it for their co-operation in providing the necessary briefs.

 

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

 

Mr Yaluma: Mr Speaker, I thank the Chairperson and the Committee on National Economy, Trade and Labour Matters, and all the people who were consulted and contributed to the review of this Bill. I am really gratified and elated that the Bill has been given a very clear nod.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

 

Committed to a committee of the Whole House.

 

Committee on Thursday, 25^th February, 2021.

 

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MOTION

 

MOTION OF THANKS

 

(Debate resumed)

 

The Minister for Central Province (Mr Mushanga): Mr Speaker, when business was suspended yesterday, I was saying that His Excellency the President of the Republic Zambia, through Parliament, brought to the attention of the nation issues like gender-based violence (GBV), defilement, child marriages, teenage pregnancies and help for the girl child. He also stated that his Government is implementing the Schools Re-entry Policy to enable teenage girls who fall pregnant to be accepted back in schools.

 

Mr Speaker, the President also talked about patriotism and national unity, and protection and care of public assets. As he was concluding, His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia invited all stakeholders, such as church leaders, traditional leaders, civil society organisations (CSOs) and all well-meaning Zambians to come on board and address vices.

 

Mr Speaker, allow me, as head of Central Province, to invite my colleagues, especially hon. Members of Parliament, the traditional leaders and the Church to come on board so that we can put our heads to together as we respond to these vices and look at our National Values and Principles. Those from the opposition political parties are also invited to come on board instead of waiting to play a part when they form Government because they may not have an opportunity to form Government. Time to come together is now, so that we can respond to these vices that are engulfing our country and provinces.

 

Sir, I thank you for according me an opportunity to contribute to debate on His Excellency the President’s Address.

 

Mr Ngulube (Kabwe Central): Mr Speaker, I thank you for according me this opportunity to add my voice to the debate on His Excellency the President’s Speech.

 

Sir, the President was very categorical when he raised several issues regarding good governance. In that vein, allow me to state that last week, we were treated to a rude shock when we heard that some political party had held elections on WhatsApp. We wondered why that party decided to conduct a WhatsApp election when the law requires that office bearers be elected. We also wonder why one person was the only one elected. So, on good governance, we are saying that the people of Zambia are worried that this dictatorial tendency –

 

Mr Speaker: Order!

 

(Debate adjourned)

 

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The House adjourned at 1655 hours until 1430 hours on Thursday, 25^th February, 2021.

 

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