DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE SECOND SESSION OF THE ELEVENTH ASSEMBLY

Thursday, 8th November, 2012

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

_________

RULING BY MR SPEAKER

POINT OF ORDER RAISED BY THE HON. MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR BANGWEULU PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCY, MR C. MATAFWALI, MP, REGARDING A NEWSPAPER ARTICLE ENTITLED ‘KAINGU SUSPENDED FROM PARLIAMENT?’ PUBLISHED IN THE DAILY NATION NEWSPAPER OF THURSDAY, 4TH OCTOBER, 2012

Mr Speaker: The House will recall that on Thursday, 4th October, 2012, when the House was considering Question for Oral Answer No. 85 and the hon. Member of Parliament for Gwembe was raising a supplementary question, the hon. Member for Bangweulu Parliamentary Constituency, Mr C. Matafwali, MP, raised the following Point of Order:

“Mr Speaker, I apologise for disturbing Hon. Ntundu’s line of thought but, I believe, the point of order I am raising is very important. It relates to an article that appeared in today’s Daily Nation Newspaper.

“Sir, yesterday, you made a ruling in the case involving Hon. Dr Kaingu in which you said that nobody should comment on the case until the Committee on Privileges, Absences and Support Services disposes of it. I was shocked this morning when I bought a copy of the Daily Nation and saw a story on page 1 headlined:

    ‘Kaingu Suspended from Parliament?’ 

“Mr Speaker, is the Daily Nation newspaper in order to issue such a statement contrary to your ruling? I seek your serious ruling.”

In my immediate remarks, I stated as follows:

“Well, this is obviously most unfortunate. As I mentioned earlier, this matter has been referred to the Committee on Privileges, Absences and Support Services that is yet to formally report to the House. I was equally perturbed when I learnt about this unfortunate leakage. Obviously, it could only be from an hon. Member. The matter is under investigation and I earnestly hope we will get to its root.

“I would also like to appeal to hon. Members of Parliament that there is a need to maintain honour in matters of this sort. We should justify the confidence that is reposed in us. However, I suppose this is a very difficult habit to practice. Nonetheless, I will still urge the House to observe utmost confidentiality. That is as far as I can go.”

Hon Members, an excerpt of the article, which is the subject of the point of order, reads:

“Kaingu Suspended from Parliament?

“MMD acting president and Mwandi MP, Michael Kaingu, has been suspended for two weeks from Parliament business.

“According to reports, Dr Kaingu has been suspended following his tearing of the speech delivered by President Michael Sata when he officially opened Parliament last week.

“The reports further state that the Standing Orders Committee of Parliamentary Procedures and Privileges has suspended Dr Kaingu for two weeks.”

Hon. Members, in line with parliamentary practice and procedure and the principle of natural justice, the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly wrote to the Managing Editor of the Daily Nation Newspaper, Mr Richard Sakala, requesting him to disclose the source of the information reported in the article in question, and also to show cause why the National Assembly should not cite the Daily Nation Newspaper for breach of parliamentary privilege and contempt of the House. 

The Daily Nation Newspaper, through its lawyers, Messrs Makala& Company, responded as follows:

“Dear Madam

“RE:  POINT OF ORDER RAISED BY MR C. MATAFWALI, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR BANGWEULU PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCY REGARDING AN ARTICLE ENTITLED ‘KAINGU SUSPENDED FROM PARLIAMENT’ PUBLISHED IN THE DAILY NATION NEWSPAPER OF THURSDAY, 4TH OCTOBER, 2012

“The above captioned and our letter of 16th October, 2012, refers.

“Under instruction from and on behalf of the Daily Nation Newspaper (“our client”), we politely address you as follows:

“Our client’s position is that the article reported on a matter that was already in the public domain having gone globally viral as carried by the Online Watchdog Publication (http://www.zambianwatchdog.com) and subsequent discussion by bloggers within and outside Zambia on 3rd October 2012. The story published by our client on Thursday, 4th October, 2012, in Volume 2, Issue No. 292, was a follow-up on the ensuing public debate and was titled:

        “‘Kaingu Suspended from Parliament?’

“The title punctuated with a question mark, as can be gleaned from the publication, connoted qualified reporting. The article, as published by our client, was not based on a report of the proceedings of the Parliamentary Committee on Privileges, Absences and Support Services (“the appropriate Parliamentary Committee”) as alleged at all as our client was not privy to the same or indeed any official document or account of proceedings.

“The fact that the article erroneously indicated that the matter was before the Standing Orders Committee of Parliamentary Procedures and Privileges instead of the appropriate Parliamentary Committee where the matter had been referred to by the Hon. Mr Speaker also lends credence to our client’s position that the article was not based on any report of the proceedings of the appropriate Parliamentary Committee.

“Further, it is noteworthy that the public at large, which includes our client, may not have been aware of, let alone, been bound by the hon. Mr Speaker’s ruling in Parliament to the hon. Members on 3rd October, 2012, that nobody should make a comment on the matter until it had been disposed of by the appropriate Parliamentary Committee.

“In the premise, our client being part of the players in the democratic dispensation of the country, felt duty bound to inform the nation on matters of public interest.

“Kindly acknowledge receipt by signing and returning a copy of this letter.

“Yours faithfully
MAKALA & CO.”

Hon. Members, the matter was accordingly referred to the Committee on Privileges, Absences and Support Services for determination. The House may wish to know that the Managing Editor of the Daily Nation Newspaper, Mr Richard Sakala, was accorded an opportunity to appear before the Committee to make oral submission. 

After examining the evidence submitted by Mr Sakala, the Committee established that the defence raised by the Daily Nation Newspaper that it had published the article in question because the information was already in public domain was a valid defence.

In view of this, the Committee found that the Daily Nation Newspaper was not in breach of parliamentary privilege or, indeed, contempt of the House.

Hon. Members, though the Committee found no breach of privilege in this case, I have to state that it is extremely unfortunate, and a matter of grave concern, that the decision of a Committee whose proceedings are held in camera, were leaked to the public before the Committee had communicated its decision back to the House. 

It may be noted by the House and the public at large that, while the Parliamentary Reforms Programme embarked on by the National Assembly of Zambia in 2002 has opened up the proceedings of the House and many of its Committees to the public, there are still some Committees that carry out their deliberations in camera; a position evident from the provision of Standing Order 130 (1) which states:

“130(1) Except for House-keeping committees and select committees, the sittings of all sessional committees of the National Assembly shall be held in public.”

From this Standing Order, it is clear that the proceedings of all House-keeping Committees and Select Committees are not open to the public. In this regard, any information pertaining to the deliberations of these Committees should not be disclosed to the public until the Committees have reported their findings back to the House. 

The public may wish to know that the Committee on Privileges, Absences and Support Services is a House-keeping Committee and is, therefore, one of the Committees whose proceedings should be treated with the utmost confidentiality by hon. Members as well as members of the public. 

Members are aware that the rationale behind holding the proceedings of the Committee in camera is to protect the reputations of persons who appear before the Committee and to avoid any public discussions that may prejudice the determination of the matters before it. 

It is, therefore, breach of parliamentary privilege and contempt of the House for any person to publish the proceedings of the Committee before the Committee’s report has been presented to the House. Section 25 (a) of the National Assembly Powers and Privileges Act, Chapter 12 of the Laws of Zambia provides that:

“Any person who publishes, save by the general or special leave of the Assembly, a report of any proceedings of the Assembly or any Committee, when such proceedings have not been held in public; shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable on conviction to a fine not exceeding five thousand penalty units or to imprisonment with or without hard labour for a term not exceeding twelve months or to both.”

I, therefore, urge hon. Members and the public at large to take this as a timely warning and desist from prematurely disclosing or publishing any information regarding Committees whose proceedings are held in camera or whose report has not been presented to the House.

I thank you.

_______

ANNOUNCEMNET BY MR SPEAKER

ZESCO PRESENTATION

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, I have an announcement to make. I wish to inform the House that the Zambia Electricity Supply Corporation (ZESCO) will make a presentation on ZESCO’s operations with particular emphasis on the current power status and the proposed tariff adjustment next week on Monday, 12th November, 2012, in the Auditorium at Parliament Buildings at 0930 hours. I therefore, urge hon. Members to attend this very important workshop and to be seated by 0900 hours.

I thank you.

_______

MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

POWER BLACKOUT AT KENNETH KAUNDA INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT

The Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication (Mr Yaluma): Mr Speaker, contrary to the point of order raised by Hon. Jack Mwiimbu, claiming that I issued a statement to the effect that the airport will never have a power blackout, I wish to clarify that, whilst reliability and continuity of the network performance could be enhanced, failure cannot be completely avoided as there are natural occurrences and factors that influence performance, which are outside our control.

Sir, I have, therefore, not made any irresponsible statement at all. It is also wrong for Hon. Mwiimbu to allege that we lost supply to the airport for more than twelve hours on 5th November, 2012.

Mr Speaker, as a professional engineer, I am bound to conduct myself within stipulated engineering code of ethics. As such, I would not like to come here and mislead the nation at large, as well as this august House, but only to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing else but the truth. Based on the aforesaid, likewise, Hon. Jack Mwiimbu, a learned person, should have told the truth, the whole truth and nothing else but the truth when he raised that point of order.

Interruptions

Mr Yaluma: Mr Speaker, may I be protected?

Mr Speaker: Proceed.

Mr Yaluma: Sir, on 5th November, 2012, at 1025 hours, ZESCO power supply to Kenneth Kaunda International Airport developed a fault and immediately, the airport standby generator automatically deployed and supplied power to the entire airport. This, therefore, meant that operations at the airport continued normally despite the ZESCO fault.

At 1100 hours, ZESCO decided to supply power to the airport through an alternate power supply. As such, the National Airport Corporation Limited (NACL) granted ZESCO the permission to work on the network configuration. This took one hour seven minutes, which was more than the anticipated time, necessitating the NACL to switch back to generator sets. The operation was deferred to another window when the airport experienced low traffic.

Mr Speaker, the power interruption to selected areas of the airport was one hour seven minutes only. I repeat; one hour seven minutes only. During the one hour seven minutes, that is to say from 1100 hours to 1207 hours, Kenya Airways and South African Airways check-in processes were partially affected and, consequently, the airlines were delayed by twenty minutes and twenty-nine minutes respectively.

Mr Speaker, during the period that the main generator set was off, the small generators supplied power to the essential areas constituting the runway lighting, taxiway lighting, apron flood lighting, control tower and communication and air navigation equipment, which operated without interruption. Scheduled operations were normal as Kenya Airways and South African Airways planes safely landed within the hour of the controlled shutdown. The airport maintained security and safety measures in accordance with the International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO) recommended practices. Only part of the terminal building was affected, but all essential areas had power supply from localised small generator sets.

Mr Speaker, at 1730 hours, when the airport experiences low traffic, ZESCO was granted permission to continue working on the fault and power was successfully restored at 1739 hours. The fault on the ZESCO power supply was identified and repaired on 6th November, 2012. The airport power supply on the ZESCO system is back to normal.

Mr Speaker, in conclusion, I would like to assure the hon. Members of this august House and the general public that the airport did not experience a total power blackout as reported in the local media. I would have expected an exhibit from the learned Hon. Jack Mwiimbu, as is his practice, but he failed to do that. 

Mr Speaker, I would like to now read exactly what I had said to this august House.

Mr Malama and Mr Ng’onga: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: Gona kuzingwa.

Mr Yaluma: Mr Speaker, I quote my own statement in this House.

“Mr Speaker, I just wanted the House to calm down. I would like to reassure the House, again, to, please, take it easy. I would like to urge them that they will not experience a blackout like the one which was witnessed on 2nd October.”

I rest my case.

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the ministerial statement issued by the hon. Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication.

Mr Habeenzu (Chikankata): Mr Speaker, clearly, the hon. Minister came to this House just to rebuttal what Hon. Mwiimbu said in his point of order. What security measures has the hon. Minister put in place so that such incidences do not recur?

Mr Yaluma: Mr Speaker, I guess when I gave the ministerial statement to which Hon. Jack Mwiimbu referred, I clearly highlighted the measures which had been put in place. However, since the question being asked by Hon. Habeenzu is not what is being discussed in the point of order, I am not going to answer it.

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, I was alarmed and perturbed by what was said in the statement that was made by the hon. Minister about me and not my point of order.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister confirming to this House and nation that the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC) and other media houses of the Government are irresponsible and always telling falsehoods to the nation and that the statement they issued to the nation that power was only restored at the airport at 1730 hours was misleading and false?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Yaluma: Mr Speaker, the electricity fault at the Kenneth Kaunda International Airport lasted for one hour and seven minutes.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has stated that the fault on the ZESCO line occurred at 1100 hours in the morning and was only restored at 1700 hours. He also said that electricity was supplied by standby generators. Is the correct position not that ZESCO, which the hon. Minister is responsible for, let the blackout to last between 1100 hours and 1700 hours?

Mr Yaluma: Mr Speaker, there are two issues here. First of all, I am not responsible for overseeing the operations of ZESCO. Secondly, when we refer to a blackout, we mean that there is no electricity or any other alternative means of supply. In this situation, we had backup supply from the generators and the power outage lasted one hour seven minutes. After this, we told ZESCO that it was going taking too long to restore power and asked if we could go ahead and switch on our generator sets while we were waiting for it to rectify the problem. That is what we did until 1700 hours when ZESCO came back and corrected the situation. So, before normal supply was restored, electricity was supplied through local generators.

I thank you very much, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalila (Lukulu East): Mr Speaker, we have had these problems at the Lusaka International Airport, now known as Kenneth Kaunda International Airport twice now. Since the hon. Minister is an engineer, as he has said, whom does he specifically blame for these incidences, and what is he doing about them?

Mr Yaluma: Mr Speaker, in my presentation, I did highlight that there are what we call ‘acts of God’. When you look at the way the network is configured, the main cause of these problems is lightening, which we cannot control. If we have a tornado tomorrow, what are we going to do because all our power lines will be down? So, I do not blame this on anybody, let alone … (pointing to the heavens).

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter

Mr Speaker gave the Floor to Mr Chisanga.

Mr Chisanga (Mkushi South): Mr Speaker, my question has been overtaken by events.

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Is the hon. Minister confirming that the media told the truth about the incident at the Kenneth Kaunda International Airport? I would like him to give a yes or no answer.

Mr Speaker: Hon. Minister, you are not tied to giving a yes or no answer.

Laughter

Mr Yaluma: Mr Speaker, I will meet the hon. Member in Malole Constituency during the electoral battle.

Laughter

Mr Yaluma: Mr Speaker, I will tell you one thing. ZESCO gives the airport terminal electricity supply through two fixed feeds. One is through a cable and the other one is through an overhead line. We lost the cable. So, the next thing we did was to go to the next alternative supply which is always on standby. That is what happened. We shall discuss that further in Malole.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mbulakulima (Chembe): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister’s statement is unusual and unprecedented.

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes.

Mr Mbulakulima: As a country, we rely on the media for information. It was clearly reported that the blackout lasted more than seven hours. Going by your style of doing things, do you have any intention of issuing another ministerial statement to clarify what the ZNBC and other media organisations said on this matter?

Mr Yaluma: Mr Speaker, I did not come here to clarify what the media reported. I was responding to the question raised in the House. I am not going to come to the House to discuss what I read in the newspapers. I am responding so that you know exactly what happened.

Now, as regards the period of the power outage, we can get that information from the recorders which monitor whenever there is a blackout. We can even make printouts of that. Now, if the media is the best source of information, then I rest my case, and you go to the media. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Speaker, my question to the hon. Minister is fairly loaded. Hon. Mwiimbu’s point of order, in my view, was well intended because he emphasised the need to maintain the integrity of the Kenneth Kaunda International Airport in the eyes of the travelling public around the globe.  His point of order was intended for the hon. Minister to give confidence to the travelling public that the Kenneth Kaunda International Airport was ….

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order! 

Hon. Members should exercise some patience.

The hon. Member can continue, please.

Mr Nkombo: … a safe connecting point. Does the hon. Minister not think that his statement is actually below expectation? I expected him to actually give confidence to the travelling public so that they continue to connect at the Kenneth Kaunda International Airport in the light of the information which was disseminated by the Government-controlled media. Does he not think that his statement is below a par, considering that he has just been attacking the hon. Member whose point of order was based on the information which he got from the media?

Mr Yaluma: Mr Speaker, I presume Hon. Nkombo is a shadow hon. Minister responsible for energy. Am I right?

Interruptions 

Mr Speaker: Order!

Will the hon. Minister proceed.

Mr Yaluma: Mr Speaker, I think that I have cleared the air with regard to the issues which were raised in the point of order. The unplanned outage lasted only for one hour seven minutes. If what I have said does not put you at ease, I will come with another ministerial statement later if requested to do so.  I thought that the information, which I have given to the House, is what could make you feel at ease.

I thank you, Sir.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha (Keembe): Mr Speaker, do we not have lightening arresters at the airport in order to secure the equipment? Is it not proper for the Government to issue a statement to comfort all aviators in the world that there are no blackouts at our airport so that a bad name is not created for Zambia?

Mr Yaluma: Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for raising that question. Putting lighting arrestors in place is one way of protecting equipment from being damaged even though they also fail to guarantee maximum protection. So, if the lighting arresters fail, the equipment will be hit and then you experience a situation such as the one we found ourselves in.

Thank you, Sir.

Ms Kalima (Kasenengwa): Mr Speaker, in his response, the hon. Minister said that the necessary areas were supplied by the standby generators and that one of the areas that was affected was the check in point.  Why can the NACL not ensure that they have generators that will supply power to all the areas, including the check in point?

Mr Yaluma: Mr Speaker, I usually give copies of my ministerial statements to the press. In this case, I will give this copy to the hon. Member so that she can read for herself what I have said on the Floor of the House. It took one hour seven minutes to switch from the cable. When the ZESCO employees noticed that they were taking long to rectify the problem, they stopped the works and switched on the generator in order to arrest the situation. We used the generator up to around 1700 hours when the problem was rectified. When the generator was on, the lights in the terminal building were on. It was during the one hour when we experienced delays for Kenya Airways for twenty minutes and twenty-nine minutes for South African Airways respectively.

Thank you, Sir.

Ms Siliya (Petauke): Mr Speaker, media reports, especially inaccurate ones in some parts of the world, have actually led to a lot of problems. We should also recognise the fact that the media has a critical role to play in terms of disseminating information, especially that which is from the Government. So, with that line of thought, would the hon. Minister not actually come and clarify to the House and the nation that even though the airport did not experience a power outage for seven hours because there was a generator set, the media did report that ZESCO did not supply power for seven hours which was correct in their view? Can the hon. Ministers make progress by embracing the media more and trying to educate the journalists so that they can be able to report appropriately and effectively in the future. I would like to believe that is what should have been in the ministerial statement instead of the attacks.

Mr Yaluma: I thank Hon. Siliya. 

Interruptions

Hon. Opposition Member: Are you normal?

Mr Yaluma: I am very normal. 

Mr Speaker: Order!

The hon. Minister can continue, please.

Mr Yaluma: Mr Speaker, Hon. Mwiimbu pre-emptied my thoughts a little too early because, before I presented the statement, I had written a note to His Honour the Vice-President to brief him about what had happened at the airport. I also informed him that I would be bringing a ministerial statement to the House. It is just that the point of order came too early. It is normal practice for us to talk about such issues.

Sometimes we do phone the journalists to correct certain reports. In this case, that is what was supposed to be done. I knew about this issue at 1145 hours. In fact, the Acting Managing Director of the NACL rushed to the press and was on television. This was not the right procedure. So, that was a mistake. Otherwise, we will try and do better next time.

Thank you, Sir.

_______________

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

CERTIFICATES OF TITLE FOR KANIKI RESIDENTS

257. Mr Chisala (Chilubi) asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing when the Government would issue certificates of title to the residents of Kaniki Township in Chifubu Parliamentary Constituency who bought council houses.

The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr Tembo): Mr Speaker, the residents of Kaniki Township in Chifubu Parliamentary Constituency did not buy houses from the Ndola City Council, as the council did not and has not built any houses in Kaniki to be bought by residents. The residents in Kaniki Township, who have built their own houses, will be required to apply for title deeds from the Ministry of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chisala: Mr Speaker, although these houses were not bought from the Ndola …

Ms Kalima: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Ms Kalima: Mr Speaker, I thank you for allowing me to raise a point of order. In today’s Daily Nation Newspaper, on the front page, is a story entitled, “Omnia, Nyiombo will not Distribute Unless …” Allow me to give a bit of some background to the story before I can quote the paper, which I will lay on the Table.

Mr Speaker, a week before closing the Farmers Input Support Programme (FISP) tender, the Permanent Secretary in the Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock called for a meeting at which twenty applicants to the tender were in attendance. This was to analyse the tender in the hope of removing what were termed discriminatory conditions. Among the conditions removed or viewed to favour Omnia and Nyiombo was experience. This meant the removal from the tender document of the part that stated that the contract would not be awarded to those who had never supplied to the ministry before or did not have experience. Any new-comer, who was ready, was welcome to bid.

The other condition, among the many which were removed, was the need to have a warehouse. You would want to note, Mr Speaker, that warehouse management in the supply of fertiliser is very cardinal. However, in this meeting, with the agreement of all the participants, this was abolished. It was said that they wanted to remove the conditions that favoured Nyiombo and Omnia to level the playing field and allow new bidders.

Mr Speaker, after closure of the tender, Omnia and Nyiombo still emerged competitive at the price that they tendered. On 21st September 2012, Omnia and Nyiombo signed the contract which stated that 25 per cent of the contract value was to be released by the Government before supply and this was to be done by 21st October, 2012. However, instead of the companies being paid on 21st October, on 19th October, the offices for Nyiombo and Omnia were visited by the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC), and it was even in the papers that they were corrupt and were awarded the tender corruptly. Documents and computers were confiscated and, to date, have not been returned to Omnia and Nyiombo.

Mr Speaker, allow me now to quote the story on page 1, as referred to above:

“The two fertiliser firms facing corruption charges, Omnia and Nyiombo, will not release the fertiliser for the 2012/13 season under FISP until the Government looks for money to pay for it. The firms won a tender to supply fertiliser to farmers under FSIP, but were currently under investigations by the ACC for unsound business conduct over the same bid. According to the senior officials at the two firms, the two entities will not supply the inputs to small-scale farmers because the PF Government was not certain with the investigation of corruption and unsound business conduct of both private companies.”

Mr Speaker, the story continues to page 4 as follows:

“Three weeks ago, a combined team of investigators from ACC and Consumer Competition Protection Commission (CCPC) launched investigations instigated by a named Minister in the PF Government after his relatives or in-laws failed to win the tender to supply 200,000 metric tonnes of fertiliser under FISP.”

Hon. Opposition Member: Aah, bamalukula,imwe.

Ms Kalima: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Livestock, who I cannot see, but his deputies are here, in order … 

Mr Mbewe: Guy Scott is there.

Ms Kalima: … not to come to this House to inform the nation and the farmers, particularly those in Kasenengwa, about this situation regarding FISP, which has been talked about so much in the House and contributed greatly to the growth of the economy of this country?  Is this Government in order not to that, when this is November, and the rains are around the corner? Is this Government in order not to attend to the FSIP when the cotton prices were so bad that every farmer ran to growing maize? Is this Government in order to put the food security of this country on the line when the unemployment levels are so high?

I seek your ruling, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order!

Clearly, this is a very complex point of order. Nonetheless, according to the information supplied to my office, some of the matters that have been referred to may be, and I emphasise, may be, before the courts of law. However, assuming that that information is not correct, I would urge that, to the extent that the point of order raised concerns matters relating to the supply and distribution of fertiliser, an appropriate question be put to the hon. Minister so that we can have a clear and meaningful response.

I must hasten to add that we are at a point when we are considering equally urgent and important business, namely the Budget. For those of you who have specific issues or questions, I would encourage you to take advantage of the facilities of urgent questions. It is a speedier way of dealing with the business of the House. 

That is my ruling.

Hon. Member for Chilubi may continue.

Mr Chisala: Mr Speaker, before I was interrupted by that supersonic tone of voice

Laughter

Mr Chisala: … from the hon. Member for Kasenengwa, I was about …

Mr Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Chilubi, I do not think that it is proper and befitting to describe an hon. Member of Parliament in those terms. Please, withdraw that statement.

Hon. Members: Apologise!

Mr Chisala: Mr Speaker, I apologise and withdraw the statement.

Mr Speaker, despite the fact that the houses in question were not constructed by and bought from the Ndola City Council, we know that it is the responsibility of local authorities to provide services to their residents. How does the ministry intend to assist the residents of Kaniki to acquire title deeds for their houses so that they can start living as free citizens?

Mr Tembo: Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Member of Parliament for Chilubi for that good follow-up question. 

Sir, the Government is ready and willing to assist the residents of Kaniki Township as long as they follow the laid-down procedure. If they have the offer letters, they need to apply, through our local authorities. We are also going to apply to the Ministry of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection which will issue the title deeds to the residents.

I thank you, Sir.

MULOBEZI BOREHOLES

258. Mr Sililo (Mulobezi) asked the Minister of Mines, Energy and Water Development how many boreholes were earmarked to be sunk in Mulobezi District in 2012.

The Deputy Minister of Mines, Energy and Water Development (Mr Zulu): Mr Speaker, this question was supposed to be directed to the Ministry of Local Government and Housing which is responsible for water supply and sanitation. However, my ministry will give an update.

Mr Speaker, Mulobezi District has been allocated nineteen boreholes, fifteen of which will be built under the Rural Water Supply and Sanitation Programme (RWSSP) while four will be built under the Danish International Development Agency(DANIDA) Support Programme. The nineteen boreholes will be drilled in communities of need that will be identified by the local administration.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Antonio (Kaoma Central): Mr Speaker, where will the nineteen boreholes be sunk?

Interruptions

Mr Zulu: Mr Speaker, I mentioned that the nineteen boreholes will be drilled in communities of that will be identified by the local administration.

I thank you, Sir.

__________{mospagebreak}

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE CHAIRPERSON   OF COMMITTEES in the 
Chair]

VOTE 07/01 – (Office of the Auditor-General – Headquarters – K57, 499, 628, 660).

(Consideration resumed)

The Vice-President (Dr Scott): Mr Chairperson, I thank the five hon. Members on the other side of the House, namely Messers Mucheleka, Mwiimbu, Simbao, Muntanga and Ntundu who contributed to the debate on this Head.

Mr Chairperson, there seems to have been a, perhaps, deliberate misapprehension on the other side of the House that we are discussing some sort of police agency. However, it is the Office of the Auditor-General we are discussing, not the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) or Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC).

Mr Speaker, the Office of the Auditor-General is a watchdog body whose task is to broadly examine the way in which the Government accounts or accounts of organisations funded by taxpayers are maintained, and annually report its findings to Parliament and advise on the way forward.

Mr Chairperson, as for suggestions that this office should be given prosecution powers, it is the Director of Public Prosecution (DPP) who has the power to prosecute. The Office of the Auditor-General might provide the information; however, it is not a policing agency, but a quality control agency, if I may put it that way. 

Sir, I think that some of the hon. Members seized the opportunity to make vague allegations of widespread corruption in the Government, and I will quote only one note that I got from an irate hon. Member of my side just to counter this. The complaint from Hon. Sampa against the hon. Member for Kalomo Central goes as follows: 

“The complaint is against the hon. Member for Kalomo Central, who said that I was excited with the Eurobond because I wanted deals to buy a house.”

Hon. Sampa said that I should, please, tell Mr Muntanga that if he was missing him as hon. Minister for the Southern Province, he should write to the principal and express his disappointment at his removal, and he (Hon. Sampa) would be pleased to return to being Mr Muntanga’s hon. Minister.

Mr Chairperson, many people have sent me notes objecting to this general barrage which, I understand, may be very good for campaigning through Parliament Radio. However, it is not really good for the quality of debate in this House.

Mr Chairperson, hon. Simbao produced his standard song that too little money has been given to this Head. If we had a lot more money, we would give a lot more to every Head. Our problem, which Mr Simbao does not have, is that we have to fit the entire Budget within the fiscal space available. It is as simple as that. You cannot say that everything is too little, and that we should give more to this or that Head. We would end up exceeding the available revenue. 

Mr Chairperson, with these few words, I ask the House to pass the Estimates for this Head. 

I thank you, Sir.

VOTE 07/01 – (Office of the Auditor-General –  Headquarters –  K57,499,628,660).

Dr Kazonga (Vubwi): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3103, Activity 009 – Recruitment and Induction of Staff –  K1,061,739,999. May I know the categories of staff that are to be recruited next year?

The Deputy Minister in the Vice-President’s Office (Mr Kalaba): Mr Chairperson, this provision has been put there to meet the cost of recruitment and induction of staff that are planned to be recruited in 2013. Of course, staff are in categories. These are general members of staff that the Auditor-General’s Office might require. It is not possible to state exactly the category of officers. As you will note, the increase is also a result of the number of officers to be recruited in 2013.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 07/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Members on my left, I have to concentrate.

Vote 07/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 07/06 – (Office of the Auditor-General – Chipata Provincial Office – K2,480,983,308).

Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on the Department Total. It has increased from K2.2 billion to K2.48 billion next year. That is an increase of approximately 11 per cent. Compared to the other provincial offices, this is almost at the bottom. What is the reason for the Chipata office having the minimum increase in allocation?

Mr Kalaba: Mr Chairperson, if you look at the individual activities under this Head, you will find that there are increments for the various activities. For example, on Activity 327 – Audit of Client 3889 – K16,646,360, there is an increment of about 39.8 per cent in that provision. So, all these are affecting the total.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Simbao (Senga Hill): Mr Chairperson, may I seek clarification on Programme 3000, Activity 001 – Salaries Division I – K703,215,917.  May I know why there is this reduction?

Mr Kalaba: Mr Chairperson, the decrease is due to the movement of staff to other stations.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 07/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 07/07 – (Office of the Auditor-General – Kasama Provincial Office – K2,856,557,940).

Ms Kalima (Kasenengwa): Mr Chairperson, the total for Kasama has increased by almost K600,000,000 unlike Chipata which has only gone up by K100,000,000. Why is this increase so much under Kasama?

Mr Kalaba: Mr Chairperson, first of all, this is an activity-based Budget. When you look at the individual activities and heads, you will discover that there are increments in some and decreases in others. This is what is amounting to that increase.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Simbao: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3000, Activity 001 –Salary Division I – K733,215,917. Again, I notice a reduction in the allocation for Kasama just like for Chipata, Livingstone and the others. When they say that there are movements of personnel, why are they moving them without bringing others in? This reduction needs to be properly explained.

Mr Kalaba: Mr Chairperson, the decrease and increase in the allocation for any particular place varies according to the need in that particular year. In this particular case, officers have been taken to other stations, hence the decrease.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 07/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/10 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/13 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/14 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/15 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/17 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/18 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/19 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/20 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/21 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/22 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 45 – (Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Child Health – K1,546,663,537,829).

The Minister of Community Development, Mother and Child Health (Dr Katema): Mr Chairperson, I wish to thank you for according me this opportunity to discuss the estimates of expenditure for the Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Child Health for the year 2013 which stands at K1,546,663,537,829.

Mr Chairperson, this reflects an increment of more than 1,000 per cent as a result of the realignment of portfolio functions in line with the Presidential directive to integrate primary health and social protection.

Mr Chairperson, the Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Child Health is a key ministry that provides and facilitates social protection to the poor and vulnerable groups. It also promotes primary health care which is a conduit through which maternal, newborn and child health services are provided as close to the family as possible. 

Therefore, this ministry contributes significantly to poverty reduction and is also playing a pivotal role in addressing the healthcare needs of mothers and children in both urban and rural areas. 

Mr Chairperson, the Government, through my ministry, in the context of social protection, will continue to offer and facilitate the provision of services in the areas of social welfare and community development as well as services to empower and rehabilitate persons with disabilities.

Mr Chairperson, under mother and child health, the ministry will provide services in the areas of safe motherhood, family planning, adolescent and reproductive health, prevention of mother to child transmission of HIV, pediatric HIV, child immunisation, health promotion, nutrition and integrated management of childhood illness.

Sir, allow me to highlight some of the key programmes under my ministry. 

Social Cash Transfer Scheme 

Mr Chairperson, the Social Cash Transfer Scheme aims at delivering social assistance in the form of cash to those that are extremely poor, incapacitated and cannot be reached by labour-based programmes. These households need regular and continuous assistance to survive and educate their children. 

Sir, K72.1 billion has been allocated to this programme for 2013. The Government will provide K17.5 billion, compared to K11.5 billion for 2012, whilst our co-operating partners will put in K54.6 billion. This clearly demonstrates the Government’s commitment to working with co-operating partners in improving the living standards of our citizens. 

However, it is worth mentioning that the scaling up of the social cash transfer programme is being done in phases based on the high levels of poverty and under-five mortality and malnutrition. In 2013, the programme will be introduced in two additional districts which are Milenge and Chiyenge, bringing the total number of districts to thirteen and supporting 65,400 households. 

Food Security Pack

Mr Chairperson, my ministry will continue to implement the Food Security Pack Programme in the coming year in all the ten provinces. K26.5 billion has been allocated to this programme.

Sir, the purpose of this programme is to eradicate hunger and poverty among vulnerable households throughout the country. The Food Security Pack Programme will receive financial support from the Royal Norwegian Government to target an additional 36,000 vulnerable farmers in some districts for the next five years. This will be done to improve food security.

Public Welfare Assistance Scheme (PWAS)

Mr Chairperson, my ministry will continue assisting incapacitated households in terms of accessing basic needs such as social welfare, health and education support throughout the country. 

Women’s Development Programme

Mr Chairperson, my ministry has increased the allocation to this programme from K16.6 billion in the 2012 Budget to K19.1 billion in the 2013 Budget. The increment is aimed at increasing the number of beneficiaries and also improving the amount given out for projects so that they can have a meaningful impact on vulnerable people’s lives. 

Mother and Child Health

Mr Chairperson, in line with the revised portfolio functions, my ministry will be responsible for primary health care which includes health promotion, prevention, curative and community mobilisation. 

My ministry will supervise all the health posts, health centres and district hospitals to ensure that we concentrate on addressing preventable diseases. The programmes my ministry will manage under the Department of Mother and Child Health will include maternal new born and child health interventions, nutrition, HIV, tuberculosis, health promotion, malaria and not forgetting the non-communicable diseases. The continuum of care will be strengthened as we continue to collaborate with the Ministry of Health, which will focus on the provision of health care at the secondary and tertiary level, where it will now provide specialised health care services to conform to international standards. In the 2013 Budget, my ministry has allocated K1.36 trillion to primary health care. 

Sir, lastly, with regard to the operationalisation of Non-Governmental Organisation (NGO) Act, No. 16 of 2009, I would also like to take this opportunity to inform the House that my ministry, in 2013, will continue the process of recruiting staff under the Department of Registrar for NGOs to ensure that it is fully functional. An allocation of K2.8 billion has been proposed compared to K1.7 billion for 2012. I, therefore, beg this august House to support my ministry’s budget for 2013.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simfukwe (Mbala): Mr Chairperson, I am grateful for the opportunity to debate the allocation for this very important ministry. 

Mr Chairperson, the Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Child Health should be considered to be one of the most important ministries for our vulnerable communities. We could safely say that this is a ministry for the poor people. This is the ministry that is supposed to address the agony of poverty and the gap between the rich people and the poor people that we all have acknowledged does exist in our communities. This is a ministry that should cushion the people from the poverty that is affecting our communities. 

Hon. Opposition Member: Zoona!

Mr Simfukwe: Mr Chairperson, this ministry acts like panadol. Panadol may not cure the ailment, but it certainly lessens the pain. Similarly, this ministry can lessen the pain for our people while we wait for all the fundamental economic achievements of our economy to trickle down to the poor so that they can get jobs, send their children to school and afford health care. The work of the ministry is like panadol that can temporarily alleviate the pain of the poor people as they wait to start enjoying the long-term benefits of a developed economy. 

Mr Chairperson, regardless of partisan orientation, does the 2013 Budget Address the reality on the ground? We all know that the weakest members of our society depend on the 2013Budget. It is said that a community or a nation will be judged by how it looks after its weakest members. The weakest members of our society such as the disabled, street vendors and street children depend on this ministry. These are people who cannot carry out any form of reasonable trade. 

Mr Chairperson, like me, some hon. Members of Parliament may have grown up in very humble surroundings. Some of the young girls and mothers we see carrying baskets on their heads actually sell foodstuffs worth less than K5,000. You see carrying those baskets from morning to evening trying to sell chikanda. I am not sure what chikanda is in English. 

Interruptions

Mr Simfukwe: Sir, I am advised that chikanda is called African polony. The African polony which our mothers carry from morning to evening is worth K10,000 at times and, in some cases, just K5,000. These are the weakest members of our community. It is obvious that the Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Child Health takes over from where the family fails. The ministry takes over from where the parents and uncles fail. This is not socialism, but humanism. I agree with what Dr. Kaunda believes in.

Mr Chairperson, I was very pleased that on page 8 of his Address to Parliament, the President said that the Government will adopt a comprehensive and integrated Social Protection Policy. My understanding was that the President was asking his team in Government to carry out his instructions. He wanted the hon. Ministers and Government officials to integrate all the social protection interventions. There are too many assistance schemes that are scattered all over this ministry which are addressing similar things. I am sure the President was very confident that his officers would interpret the word ‘integrate’ well. He was asking you, the hon. Members on the right and your officers, to do your homework on the PWAS and Social Cash Transfer Scheme. Those schemes are like loose cannons firing from all angles without hitting the target. They have no clear understanding of what is happening at the household level. You will find that different groups of people from the ministry will come to deal with PWAS and cash transfers at the same time. The President was asking you, ladies and gentlemen on the right, to integrate these interventions. I have not seen this happen in this year’s Budget. You have probably either ignored the President’s instructions or you did not instruct the civil servants appropriately. 

Mr Speaker, the need to harmonise these interventions cannot be overemphasised. There should have been an attempt in the Budget to focus on the household level by integrating all these schemes. When I was going through the hon. Minister of Finance’s Speech, to see if the integration of the policy framework was done as was demanded by the President, I am afraid to say it appeared as if things were done in a business as usual kind of approach. It is the same system of placing numbers in the usual Budget lines. There is no serious attempt to change the format so that you can accommodate the need to integrate these systems. I am afraid that, unless this is done, the desire the President expressed, in his Speech, to see the various schemes integrated, will not be fulfilled.

Mr Chairperson, let me also talk about ideology. My understanding is that, through community development, which is a key component of this ministry, the Government wishes to help people lead better lives, without necessarily commanding them on how to lead their lives. There is a need for a clear policy on how the Patriotic Front (PF) Government wants the people in the rural areas to live, and how it wants the urban communities to develop. We want to see clues of this in this Budget. We are wondering as regards to what type of communities we expect to see at the end of this Budget. In order not to sound too ideological, let me refer to some examples. Botswana, from the beginning, resolved that it would develop its rural areas into cattle posts, and did this by putting up schools, water facilities, telephones and electricity in those areas. Traditional land was fenced off for cattle rearing purposes. This was seen as a suitable way of developing communities in the rural areas.

Mr Chairperson, how does this Government want to develop the rural and urban communities? Does the Government think that the uncontrolled vending, which is taking place in the urban centres, is the way to develop the urban areas? Can the Government give us a policy direction, through this ministry and Budget, on how it wants Zambia to develop? Let me give another example. This one is of Rwanda. After the genocide, President Paul Kagame and his team resolved that they wanted to see the removal of thatch from village houses. That is how they wanted Rwanda to develop. There are iron roofs on almost all the houses in the villages in Rwanda. We are also told that they want every family in the rural areas to own a cow. That is a policy. I am not referring to kommandist ideas.  All I am saying is that the Government, through this Budget, needs to guide the stakeholders, private sector and civil society on how it wants this country to develop.

Mr Chairperson, in terms of community development, mother and child health, maybe, the Government needs to harmonise its interventions and show concern for the welfare of every Zambian. I mentioned earlier that poverty is a non-partisan matter. Through this ministry and Budget, one would hope to see the Government show its concern for its citizens at their various levels in society. When I went on a tour to Mauritius with Mr Speaker’s Committee,  I saw that the people believe that their Government is concerned about their welfare from birth to death. This implies that their Government is interested in knowing how the youth and old people are living in that country. The Government, with the help of the private sector in that country, intervenes in situations when it must do so. In short, the Government of that country has taken up the responsibility of taking care of its citizens. I know that even in the past our Government has done its best to take care of its citizens. However, there is a growing perception that because we are an open economy, it does not matter if our youths stand in the street corners. This is despite every citizen wanting to be in school, have a job or some form of training. Every citizen is valuable human resource. So, I think, the policy of providing care from birth to death should be followed by every government that cares for its citizens. It should be concerned about where they are and what they are doing. If we see the youths standing in street corners, this implies that the Government has turned a blind eye to their plight because they should be in training schools or employment. They should also participate in activities that will make them feel they are realising their full potential.

Hon. Opposition Member: Yaah,Zoona!
.
Mr Simfukwe: Mr Chairperson, the billions of kwacha that have been allocated to this ministry would probably be better utilised if we started to pay more attention to poverty at the household level. In other words, we need to understand what is happening in each of our households. The population of this country is approximately 13 million, and this means, probably, 500,000 households. I am sure we have the capacity to understand what is happening in our households. For the poor households, I am quite certain that this ministry, with the proper use of the few resources that it is normally allocated, is capable of determining what can be done at the different household levels. In some households, providing a job for the breadwinner would take care of the problem of street kids and old people and even probably eliminate the problem of crime because you would have targeted what is really important for this household. In some households, there are parents who have children, but have no jobs. I am not talking about solutions which are unrealistic. In some of these tours that we go on, we have seen some of the solutions I am talking about being implemented in other countries.

Mr Muntanga: Yes, it is happening.

Mr Simfukwe: Thank you, Hon. Muntanga. He is acknowledging that what I am saying is happening in other countries.

The Deputy Chairperson: Your time is up Hon. Simfukwe.

Mr Bwalya (Lupososhi): Mr Chairperson, I am glad that you have given me this opportunity to debate the allocation to this very important ministry that actually focuses on the wellbeing of the women and, indeed, children of our country.

Mr Chairperson, let me begin with the mother and child health component of the ministry. The hon. Minister has actually stated that his ministry will be taking over the management of the health posts and centres so as to provide first level interventions in health.

Mr Chairperson, as we implement this budget, I would like to appeal to the ministry to ensure that it manages this transition very well so that we do not have situations where the health posts are left unmanned. The Civil Service is a very important component of every country. Every Government, which has governed this country, has used the Civil Service machinery to deliver development and services to the Zambian people. My worry is that, if the transition is not properly managed, we may have a situation where the staff under the Ministry of Health will refuse to accept certain responsibilities, and those under the Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Child Health will be saying that they have not yet been deployed. So, I hope that Hon. Dr Katema’s ministry will manage this transition very well.

Mr Chairperson, having said this, I am also concerned about child and birth registration. I hope that, with the re-alignment of functions, birth registration is also looked at so that we can have correct data on births and the number of children in this country. Currently, when a mother delivers at the University Teaching Hospital (UTH), she has to apply for a birth certificate through the Department of National Registration Passport and Citizenship and it will take years for her to obtain the birth certificate. The situation is worse for the people of Lupososhi Constituency in Luwingu District because they do not have the privilege of travelling to Lusaka to get birth certificates. This means that some of the births are not recorded. Therefore, the population of children may not be accurate. My prayer is that, as we implement the budget for the ministry, we decentralise the issuance of some of these documents that have to do with birth registration. This will help chiefs have a clear record of how many children there are in their chiefdoms. 

Mr Chairperson, I have noticed that there is about K9 billion under the Department of Mother and Child Health for Luwingu District. 

Sir, Luwingu District is quite remote and medical equipment is quite cardinal. I hope that the ministry will look at the issue of equipment required for the staff in the district to implement the budget effectively. The area has no vehicles, computers are shared among staff and office accommodation is inadequate. With the creation of this new department, we have to increase office space and provide the necessary equipment. In fact, because of the distance between the two health centres, which will be taken over by the ministry, there is a need to provide ambulances for these areas. The shortest distance between the two medical centres is about 50km. It is very difficult for patients to travel these long distances on bad roads coupled with the lack of transport.

Sir, I hope that, with the re-alignment of functions, we will be able to provide the services and equipment as quickly as possible. Better still, duty on ambulances has been waived. So, we should be able to buy as many ambulances as possible so that we can service the rural areas of this country. 

Mr Chairperson, the Social Cash Transfer Scheme (SCTS) is very good. We need to ensure that we take ownership of it and reduce the amount that we receive from our co-operating partners. However, the management and monitoring of this scheme needs to be enhanced so that it reaches the intended beneficiaries. There are stories coming from areas where this cash transfer is being administered to the effect that those charged with the responsibility of paying the people are getting a cut out of it. I think that it is important to enhance monitoring and ensure that only the target beneficiaries get it. It is a very good scheme and I am glad the Government has paid very good attention to it. 

Mr Chairperson, I concur with the previous speaker that we need to harmonise the women’s development or empowerment programmes because the women’s clubs are being serviced under the …

The Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended at 1615 hours until 1630 hours. 

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the 
Chair]

Hon. Members: The quorum has not been made.

The Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1630 hours until 1633 hours.

The Chairperson: Order!

I think that it has become a habit for us to be late. We have noticed that, each time we need to report back, there is a problem of not making a quorum on time. I am appealing to the Whips to ensure that they tell their people to be punctual so that we follow our time schedule. 

Hon. Member: The Whips are not here!

The Chairperson: It is a pity if the Whips, themselves, are not here. 

The hon. Member for Lupososhi was debating. He may continue. 

Laughter

Mr Bwalya: Mr Chairperson, before business was suspended, I was saying that there was a need to harmonise these schemes so that we do not end up helping the same women’s clubs. 

Mr Chairperson, we have various ministries that address the issues of women empowerment programmes, such as the Ministry of Gender and Child Development and the Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Child Health. Therefore, it is only right that we harmonise their operations so that we can have one policy and one scheme to address women’s empowerment issues. 

Mr Chairperson, I talked about the SCTS but, I think that I left out one point. Luwingu is one of the districts that are benefiting from the scheme. I am happy to mention that we are one of the earliest beneficiaries, as a district. However, there are stories that are coming out in relation to the management of this scheme. For example, one person might be getting money from the scheme, while the neighbour, who is very old and vulnerable, is not. As a result, questions are asked in the communities why a very old person should not benefit whilst the next household, with only one orphan, does. For this reason, I think that there is a need to do an evaluation and determine the criteria for identifying beneficiaries so that we can do away with some of these questions from the electorate that are very difficult to answer.

Sir, I wish to state that the policies on children and health must be looked at again so that we can have uniform policies addressing the same issues. We have what we call the Public Health Department in the Ministry of Local Government and Housing. Now, there is also the Department of Mother and Child Health in the Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Child Health. There is also Child Health under the Ministry of Health, and all these have polices that need to be harmonised so that they can be effectively and efficiently implemented 

Mr Chairperson, with these few words, I thank you.

Ms Namugala (Mafinga): Mr Chairperson, thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Vote for the Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Child Health. 

Sir, as already mentioned, this is a very important ministry. In fact, if I had a way, I would allocate a hundred times more resources to this ministry than what has been allocated because the majority of our people are vulnerable. The majority of the people live in poverty. So, this is the ministry that can make a difference.

Mr Chairperson, let me start by discussing the structure of the ministry. I have noticed that its portfolio functions have changed, and that this has contributed to the increase in the budgetary allocation. The K1.6 trillion that has been additionally allocated to the ministry is for primary healthcare. So, in effect, in terms of support to the core functions of this ministry, there has been no budgetary increase. 

In my opinion, this K1.6 trillion should go to the core functions of the ministry, which are social welfare and the like. This ministry is not ready to look after primary healthcare. It does not have the technical capacity or structures on the ground. This is going to create a lot of confusion. If this money is going to remain in the ministry, I can guarantee you that, come this time in 2013, the crisis on the ground will be so much that the PF will be even more unpopular than it is now. We are trying to help the Government.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: This money must either go back to the Ministry of Health, where the capacity for primary healthcare lies, or become part of the allocation to the core programmes of the Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Child Health. 

Sir, the many programmes in the ministry that have been ill funded include the PWAS. This is such an important scheme that, on the ground, the many vulnerable children who cannot afford a uniform rely on this allocation. Currently, the few Zambians who are in formal employment have to support an average of twelve dependants because these dependants are not being supported by the Government. They have to provide for their education and general upkeep. Therefore, PWAS requires more money, hon. Minister of Finance – he is not here, so that the children and other deserving people actually benefit from the scheme. 

Sir, there is a need for harmonisation of PWAS and the Bursaries Scheme in the Ministry of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education so that the children who are vulnerable and in need of support are the ones who access the bursaries. Currently, we have seen children from very rich families accessing up to 100 per cent bursaries at the University of Zambia. This is unfair and it does not help to promote equity. There is a need for us to re-view what PWAS has to provide to ensure that the Ministry of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education is also doing its part to support children who are in need of bursaries.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: Mr Chairperson, as a society, we cannot sit by and watch children with the capacity to attain the highest levels of education fail to access that education because some hon. Minister’s child has been given a bursary at the expense of that poor child in Kaputa or Shang’ombo.

Mr M. B. Mwale: Zoona!

Ms Namugala: Sir, the issue of accountability in the management of PWAS is also very important. On the ground, there is a need for us to ensure that those who need to benefit from it do benefit.

The Food Security Pack (FSP) is another very critical programme under this ministry. However, when you ask the hon. Members of Parliament here, half do not even know who is benefiting from this programme. Again, monitoring and evaluation to ensure that the intended beneficiaries are the ones who are receiving this support is needed. There is also a need, hon. Minister, for continuous review of this very important programme.

Mr Chairperson, care for the aged is a social service for which we are all potential candidates because not all of us are going to prepare for old age. We must ensure that the aged in our society are well looked after. Some of us may live to be ninety years old, but others may not. However, we need to have a social protection scheme in place that is non-contributory because the majority of our people out there do not contribute to any social protection scheme. There is a need for us to look after the aged. I do not …

Interjection

The Chairperson: Order!

Ms Namugala: … subscribe to the issue of old people’s homes but, if we need to support these homes, let us do that, although I feel that it is important for us to strengthen the communities to look after the elderly. We should strengthen the family so that the extended family system can support the aged.

There is also the issue of the gender dimension to aging. We know that women live longer than men. We also know that even if they are ninety years old, men can get married to a younger woman who will look after them.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: Mr Chairperson, that is a fact. That is the gender dimension to aging. An eighty year old man can attract a younger woman in the village and marry her. This can also happen in town, but an old woman cannot attract a younger man to look after her. Therefore, let us take care of the old women because they are more vulnerable than the old men.

Mr Chairperson, on the issue of children in need, there is confusion that has been created between the Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Child Health and the Ministry of Gender and Child Development. This is not going to help the children because the Ministry of Gender and Child Development does not have the capacity to look after children in need. The Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Child Health is the one which has that kind of capacity. This ministry has officers on the ground that can identify children in need of care, ensure that they are put in institutions of care and also ensure that these children are protected.

Mr Chairperson, the programme of the so-called street children was successful in the Ministry of Community Development and Social Welfare when the MMD was in power.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: Mr Chairperson, 1,300 children were removed from the streets and taken into care. This is possible. All that is required is commitment. There is a need for political will to remove the children from the streets and turn them into children that can contribute to the development of this country.

Mr Chairman, we know that seventy-five per cent of the children on the streets come from homes like it has been said before. So, why are they on the streets? It is because of poverty? Again, can we ensure that the programme to empower families is in place so that the children are removed from the street?

Mr Chairperson, let me bring this point of the so-called children home. When I was at the Ministry of Community Development and Social Welfare, I heard a story about a group of young boys on the street who waylaid a middle-aged woman. They took her to a dark spot and said: “tilibebamayi ife, tifuna kunyonka,” meaning they had no mothers and they wanted to breast feed. They all pounced on her and suckled from her breasts.

Hon. Opposition Member: Only?

Ms Namugala: Yes, that only. That is all they did.

Laughter

Ms Namugala: Mr Chairperson, this is not funny. I want the hon. Members of the Executive to imagine this woman was their wife. Hon. Minister of Community Development, Mother and Child Health, I want you to imagine this was your wife.

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Ms Namugala: I am trying to bring this point home because the issue of street children is an embarrassment to a society like ours. We should not be driving expensive cars past Manda Hill when children are sleeping in trenches.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Ms Namugala: Mr Chairperson, children are giving birth to other children in trenches, in case you do not know, hon. Members of the Executive. We want you to commit to ensuring that these children also have a chance in life. We want you to commit the resources to the Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Child Health because it is the ministry that brings hope to the poor, especially the children. No child asks to be born. So, why a children end up on the streets, because he/she was born from a poor parent? Where is society?

Mr Chairperson, the Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Child Health must be adequately empowered to give hope to the children, the elderly as well as the disabled children.

Mr Chairperson, 10 per cent of every population is disabled in one way or the other. We have our share of disabled children and adults too. What is happening to them? Are we allocating enough resources to people living with disabilities? Are we even serious about dealing with issues of people living with disabilities? The answer is no. The people living with disabilities deserve the attention of a caring Government. Since the PF Government is not a caring one, we hope, in future, they are going to remember that each one of us is a candidate for disability. Each one of us can have a disabled child. So, what are we doing for these people?

Mr Chairperson, I would like to appeal that more money be given to the Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Child Health for its core functions.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Habeenzu (Chikankata): Mr Chairperson, to begin with, I would like to adopt Hon. Namugala’s debate as my own because most of the issues that I wanted to raise have been raised by her.

Hon. Government Members: So, sit down.

The Chairperson: Order!

He wants to add his thoughts too.

Mr Habeenzu: Mr Chairperson, the SCTS is a very important programme, but I would like to state that, as a Government, we should own it. The scheme should stop being donor dependent as is the case currently. When you look at the allocation to the scheme, most of the funds are from the donor agencies. It is for this reason that I would like to urge the Government to own this programme as it is very important.

Mr Chairperson, I was one of the people who went to Kalomo to inspect how this programme was working. On that visit, we found that there were people who were initially very poor to the point of almost dying. After they were put on this scheme, their financial status changed. For instance, there was a man called Siyanchowalya who was very poor and when put on this scheme, he bought a chicken from the money he was given. That chicken produced eggs which gave him more chickens and now he owns about ten goats. So, the reason I am saying the Government should own this programme is that it has been able to save the people who could have died as a result of poverty.

Mr Chairperson, like I said earlier, most of the issues that I wanted to debate, such as birth registration, have been well articulated by the other hon. Members. Birth registration was talked about by the hon. Member for Lupososhi, while Hon. Namugala also talked about the Social Welfare Scheme. The only thing I can talk about is the programme of women development.

Mr Chairperson, when you empower a woman, you are empower the nation. So, it is important that we take care of women and continue supporting them because they are the vulnerable in society.

Mr Chairperson, just like Hon. Mwiimbu said, the Government should decentralise the issuance of certificates because it is difficult for a woman like my grandmother in the village to travel all the way to Lusaka to get a certificate for her to access the women’s development fund. Decentralisation of the issuance of certificates will make it easier for my grandmother in the village in Chikankata to access this fund.

Mr Chairperson, the other issue I want to comment on is that of FSPs. This is an issue we should not politicise. Like Hon. Namugala said, we want to know the criteria used to distribute FSPs. How do people access them? How does my grandmother in the village in Chikankata, Kochimwagila, Chivuna, and Nameembo access them? We want to know because we do not want this issue to be politicised. 

This is an issue that should be taken seriously because, in the event that a family does not access fertiliser from the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP), this is what can cushion the situation. So, we want the hon. Minister to explain the criterion used in the distribution of FSPs. There is a need to involve hon. Members of Parliament because they are the people on the ground and are in touch with the communities.

Mr Chairperson, these are some of the issues that I thought I should raise because most of the issues have already been addressed. 

Otherwise, thank you very much, Sir.

Dr Chituwo (Mumbwa): Mr Chairperson, I thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to contribute to debate on the budget for the Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Child Health. I will restrict myself to the issue of primary health care. Generally, women and children are the most vulnerable and are the majority in rural areas where health services are inadequate for various reasons such as long distances, poor infrastructure and so on and so forth. We should invest more in women, mother and child health so that we can try and ‘turn the tap off’. At the rate we are going, with regard to maternal and child health, it is like we are mopping the floor while the tap is on and the water is running. It does not matter what we do if, in the realignment of the ministry responsible for mother and child health, our focus is on curative services, it will not help.

Mr Chairperson, as has already been mentioned by my colleagues, the Ministry of Community Development and Social Welfare, as it was known before it was realigned, already had enough on its plate. It was not able to meet the needs of vulnerable people in our country. In affition, we decide to lumber it with this very important responsibility of mother and child health.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear! 

Dr Chituwo: It will not cope. There is evidence that the maternal mortality ratio has decreased from 729 per 100,000 live births to 591. The child and infant mortality rates have declined from 119 to 70 per 1,000 live births. The immunisation rate for children is over 80 per cent. Malaria incidences have declined to 99 cases per 1,000 people although our target was 252 per 1,000. These are tangible achievements. Where is the system in the new ministry? There is none. What are the structures? 

Mr Chairperson, I would have thought that with the focus on decentralisation, the most suitable public institutions to have taken over primary health care would have been the local authorities. They have the structures for community development and engineering. In primary health care, we are talking of public health. Why, therefore, should we take this very important programme to a ministry that is centralised? What we are doing, colleagues, is not right. Perhaps, the hon. Minister can clarify this but, certainly, I cannot understand why we want to throw away the baby with the water, hoping that we are going to clean that baby later. So, I hope there will be a full explanation for this. What will be the reporting mechanisms on key performance areas vis-à-vis the World Health Organisation (WHO)? It is true that we have to balance up things but, I think, this has been untimely. So, a rethink, perhaps, will be much more appropriate, difficult at this stage as it might be.

Mr Chairperson, the other issue I wanted to debate on is along the same lines as the emphasis on the vital statistics that I referred to. Perhaps, His Honour the Vice-President could bring a Bill to amend the Births and Deaths Registration Act so that we have a decentralised system. At the moment, it is by proxy that we are capturing children that are born, but they do not have birth certificates. This is a prerequisite and it is very important.

Mr Chairperson, perhaps, this budget of K1.6 trillion would have been just confined to primary health care. The needs out there are really big. How, in any case, are we going to integrate the problem of reproductive health and Human Immunodeficiency Virus/Acquired Immunodeficiency Syndrome (HIV/AIDS), for instance? How are we going to embark on staff recruitment? Will the Ministries of Health or Community Development, Mother and Child Health be the ones to recruit health workers? What will be the line of promotion and professional training? These are questions that need answers so that we can give comfort to our professionals out there and there is no seeming discrimination between those in one ministry and those in another. There are nurses at the primary health care level with similar nursing qualifications to those at the secondary and third level health care.

Mr Chairperson, let me end by stating that, currently, the Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Child Health, at the district level, as has been stated, has poor office accommodation and there is hardly any transportation. At the sub-district level, there is nothing in terms of transportation and health workers have to walk to and from work. So, why does the ministry have to take on the responsibility of mother and child health? Community mobilisation is the specialty of this ministry. 

Sir, I would like to propose that, in view of the concerted efforts by the Patriotic Front (PF) Government in decentralisation, as has been seen by the fifteen new districts already created, the right way to go, in all honesty, is holistic decentralisation and not piecemeal. There is a need to devolve the responsibility of primary health care to the local authorities. This money should be used to capacitate local authorities as was the case in the past. If we do this, I am sure we shall attain the millennium development goals (MDGs) quicker. On one hand we talk about decentralisation but, on the other, we are centralising our programmes and activities.

Mr Chairperson, I thought I should point out these areas of concern and hope that the hon. Minister will classify these very important concerns.

Thank you, Sir.

Dr Katema:  Mr Chairperson, I would like to talk about some of the concerns raised by Hon. Bwalya. He talked about the social cash transfer reaching some unintended people. We only have a few cases of that nature because committees have been set up in the communities to identify the beneficiaries. The people in the communities know better who is vulnerable. These committees have identified teachers or clergymen to handle the paying points. We only have a few cases of money ending up in the pockets of unintended people. If the hon. Member has any such cases, he should assist us by reporting them to the community development and social welfare offices.

There are criteria we consider when administering the SCTS. Households which are, for instance, headed by children or people with disabilities are considered. The criteria have been explained to the people involved who are part of the committee welfare assistance committees. Very soon, my ministry will embark on retraining the same volunteers in the communities.

Mr Chairperson, we are also looking at ways of making sure that the people in the communities take charge of their own health. The outbreak of typhoid in Mufulira was brought about by people breaking the pipes belonging to the water utility company because they wanted to use the sewer water to water their crops. No matter how effective a doctor, clinical officer or nurse at a health institution is, that outbreak cannot be dealt with. It can only be dealt with when the people in the community take up the responsibility of looking after themselves at the household level. Only then are we going to have primary health care enhanced in our communities. Primary health care should be actually strengthened at the household and community levels rather than at the health centre level. Close to 50 per cent of children are malnourished. They suffer from different forms of stunted growth. We cannot provide primary health care interventions for such problems at the health centre because that is not where we feed the children.  The children are fed at the household and community levels. The problems which are brought to the health centre are the outcomes of inactivity in the communities.

Mr Chairperson, Hon. Namugala talked about suckling and other very important issues which she identified when she was hon. Minister responsible …

Hon. Opposition Members: GBM! GBM!

The Chairperson: Order!

I have said, in the past, that we should not make something out of nothing. If you ignore the advice of the Chair, you are doing so at your own risk because one of these days, I will pick two or three hon. Members and send them out as an example.

Hon. Minister continue, please.

Laughter

Dr Katema: Mr Chairperson, I thank you. Hon. Namugala talked about the need for the ministry to look after the aged. The policy of this Government is not to encourage the institutionalisation of providing care for the aged by putting them in old people’s homes, but rather to have them rehabilitated and kept by their families. Institutionalisation should be the last resort. This is why, under the criteria of social cash transfer and other programmes, we emphasise the need to empower families or households which are looking after the aged and disabled.

She also talked about the need for the ministry to look after the disabled. Truly, my Government, through my ministry, is committed to the handling of issues to do with disability in the country. As such, the Government is developing a Disability Policy. The process has reached an advanced stage. In fact, this House passed a Disability Act in 2012, which is made up of contents of the international conventions on people with disabilities. Very soon, we shall be bringing statutory instruments to put into effect some of those components of the Disability Act so that we can enforce this law.

Mr Chairperson, there was talk about the Government owning the SCTS. Yes, indeed, if you look at the 2012 and 2013 budgets, you will find that the Government has progressively increased funding to the scheme as per agreement with our co-operating partners that we shall be increasing our counterpart funding until the point where we shall take over our co-operating partners’ contribution, meaning that after ten years or so, the scheme will be owned by the Government. That is why we are cautiously taking on some districts, as capacity grows, and increasing the counterpart funding.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Katema: Mr Chairperson, there was a question regarding the criteria used for selecting beneficiaries of the FSP.

 Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

I think that I have been tempted too far and it is now time to act. Can I ask the hon. Members for Gwembe and Katombola to leave the House.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson:  Please, leave the House and come back after some time.

    Hon. Ntundu and Hon. Livune left the assembly Chamber. 

 Laughter

   The Chairperson: Can the hon. Minister continue.

Dr Katema: Somebody asked a question regarding the criteria used to select beneficiaries of the FSP. There are committees within the community that are called Area Food Security Committees which comprise people in the community who know which households are vulnerable. They are the people who actually select the households that should benefit from the FSP.

Mr Chairperson, the Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Child Health has structures at all the levels of the community. At the national level, there are people who are in charge of community development and social welfare.  There are structures at the provincial and district levels. At the district level, we have sub-centres which are smaller units. We reach out even to places where, in normal circumstances, the local authorities do not reach. We have sub-centres even in the villages. Therefore, it is not right to say we are not able to reach the people at the various levels as we implement our programmes.

Mr Chairperson, the community development and social welfare arm of the ministry has structures in the community which assist it to implement its programmes. In fact, the Ministry of Health works with it to provide preventive health care services. The safe motherhood action groups, which are in every village and report to health centres, are made up of different members of the community. We also have growth monitors from the communities. These are women who go door to door looking at every child and noting whether children are in danger of getting malnutrition or not. We want to give the responsibility of providing primary health care back to the community.

The Chairperson: Just by way of guidance, hon. Minister, you are winding up. So, can you, please, be brief.

You may continue, please.

Mr Nkombo: It is not a state of the nation address.

Dr Katema: Mr Chairperson, I thank the hon. Members for the support rendered to my ministry, especially by Hon. Chituwo and Hon. Namugala who talked very passionately about street kids. I also wish to thank Hon. Simfukwe and Hon. Habeenzu for their contributions. We have taken note of all the suggestions and concerns that have been highlighted and shall look into them.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

VOTE 45/01 – (Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Child Health – Headquarters – K90, 402,894,332).

The Chairperson: Mr Katombola.

Mr Livune: Mr Livune, Sir.

Laughter

Hon. Member: Aah, bacibalaba.

Mr Mushanga: He is back so soon?

Mr Livune: Mr Speaker, may I have clarification on Programme 5003, Activity 023 – Training – K909,952,000 and  Activity 091 – Capacity Building of Employees – K4,175,293,690. Can the hon. Minister compare and contrast the two items because, to me, training and capacity building appear to be one and the same thing. I have a feeling that it could be another way of engaging in that word which you hate. I do not want to mention the word, but I want the two allocations to be explained.

The Deputy Minister of Community Development, Mother and Child Health (Ms Kazunga): Mr Chairperson, Programme 5003, Activity 023 – Training – K909,952,000, the funds are used for enhancing the capacity of officers in the ministry through skills development in various programmes. The reduction is due to the fact that a number of officers at the headquarters had completed their training programmes in the previous year. 

Activity 091 – Capacity Building of Employees – K4,175,293,690, this is a new activity in line with the reversed portfolio functions and funds will go towards building capacity among health workers across the country. That is the difference.

Thank you, Sir.

The Chairperson: Before another hon. Member asks for clarification, I just want to clear the air with regard to one issue. When I sent out Hon. Ntundu and Hon. Livune, I had said that they would leave the Chamber and come back later. I did not give the duration of the time after which the two could return to the House. So, when the other person came back, I felt it was in order because I just wanted them to be away and give the hon. Minister the chance to wind up his debate.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mr Pande (Kasempa): Mr Chairperson, Programme 5000, Activity 001 – Salaries, Division 1 – K802, 702, 919, and Activity 004 – Wages – K198, 356, 366. I have noticed that the allocation for Salaries for Division 1 has been reduced while  that for Wages has been increased. What is the reason for this?

Further, Mr Chairperson, Programme 5001, Activity 005 – Support to Permanent Secretary’s Office – K86, 400, 000, and Activity 006 – Support to the Minister’s Office – K491, 864,  000. Last year, K150,779, 996 was allocated to Activity 005, but it has been reduced to K86, 400, 000 while Activity 006 has been increased from K450, 339, 992 to K491, 864, 000. I would like to know the reasons for that.

Mr Chairperson, Programme 5011, Activity 022 – Maintenance – Nil, and Activity 195 – Rehabilitation of Office Building and Surroundings – K600, 000, 000. Maintenance was provided for this year, but not for next year. However, there is a provision for Rehabilitation of Office Building and Surroundings of K600, 000, 000 next year. Is rehabilitation synonymous with maintenance? I need clarification on that.

Ms Kazunga: Mr Chairperson, Programme 5000, Activity 001 – Salaries, Division 1 – K802, 702, 919, and Activity 004 – Wages – K198, 356, 366, the decrease in Salaries for Division 1 is due to the decision by the Government to budget for the Permanent Secretaries’ salaries centrally, at the Ministry of Finance. The provision for Wages is required to pay monthly wages to Classified Daily Employees (CDEs). The variance is due to the annual increment

Mr Chairperson, Programme 5001, Activity 005 – Support to Permanent Secretary’s Office – K86, 400, 000, and Activity 006 – Support to the Minister’s Office – K491, 864, 000, these are funds are required to meet the cost of operations for the Permanent Secretary. The reduction in this provision is due to the incorporation of the Permanent Secretaries’ fuel allowance into their salaries. The funds for Support to the Minister’s Office are required to meet the cost of operations for the two Ministers’ Offices. The increase is due to the anticipated rise in the cost of commodities.

Mr Chairperson, Programme 5011, Activity 022 – Maintenance – Nil and Activity 195 – Rehabilitation of Office Building and Surroundings – K600, 000, 000, funds for Activity 022 have been budgeted for under Activity 195, which is a new activity. The funds for this are required to purchase materials and services for rehabilitation of the ministry building and facilities.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr M. B. Mwale (Malambo): Mr Chairperson, Programme 5026, Activity 029 – Expatriate Health Workers – K245, 257, 176. May I know what type of expatriate health workers have been budgeted for.

Ms Kazunga: Mr Chairperson, Programme 5026, Activity 029 – Expatriate Health Workers – K245, 257, 176, this is a new activity, and the funds are meant to pay expatriate health workers’ salaries as they are not on the Government payroll.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mbulakulima (Chembe): Mr Chairperson, Hon. Lubinda remembers that the MMD was supposed to have phased out this money. We are very heavy to handle.

The Chairperson: order!

Can you, please, ask your question.

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Chairperson, Programme 5001, Activity 046 – Services of the Director – K49, 800, 000, I am not looking for the definition because I know what it is. However, how many directors have remained for you to reduce the amount from K170, 779, 996 to only K49, 800, 000. Have some directors died or what?

Further, Mr Chairperson, Programme 5007, Activity 003 – Personnel-Related Arrears – 12, 033, 681, 547, the figure increased from K356, 000, 000 to K12, 033, 681, 547. What has necessitated this increase?

Ms Kazunga: Mr Chairperson, Programme 5001, Activity 046 – Services of the Director – K49, 800, 000, the reduction is as a result of the restructuring that has taken place in the ministry.

Mr Chairperson, Programme 5007, Activity 003 – Personnel-Related Arrears – K12, 033, 681, 547, the funds are meant to dismantle various personal emoluments related to arrears, such as long service bonuses, commutation of leave days, terminal benefits and repatriation allowances owed to members of staff. The increase is because we want to clear all outstanding personnel-related arrears, including those carried forward by health workers.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Miyanda (Mapatizya): Mr Chairperson, Programme 5012, Activity 003 – HIV/AIDS Awareness, Prevention, Treatment, Care and Support – K206, 176, 643. This year, the allocation is K660, 300, 000. However, it has dropped to K206, 176, 643 in the Budget for next year. Why has this happened when so many people are sick and need support?

Ms Kazunga: Mr Chairperson, Programme 5012, Activity 003 – HIV/AIDS Awareness, Prevention, Treatment, Care and Support – K206, 176, 643, these funds are required for co-ordinating, supporting the workplace HIV/AIDS programmes, disseminating information on HIV/AIDS prevention and care for members of staff infected or affected by HIV/AIDS. The amount has reduced because some of the activities have been catered for under the Mother and Child Health Department.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairperson, Programme 5008, Activity 072 – Audit of Health Institutions – K194, 396, 500. May I know whether this activity is meant to audit all health institutions or only a selected number of health institutions.

Ms Kazunga: Mr Chairperson, Programme 5008, Activity 072 – Audit of Health Institutions – K194, 396, 500, this is a new activity which has been introduced as a result of the realignment of the ministry. It is targeted at selected institutions.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 45/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 45/02 ordered to stand part of Estimates.

Vote 45/03 ordered to stand part of Estimates.

VOTE 45/04 – (Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Child Health – Public Health & Research – K10, 680, 586, 942).

Dr Chituwo: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5071, Activity 006 – Focused Antenatal Care & Safe Motherhood – K569, 521, 681. Can the hon. Minister explain what that paltry sum of money can do? 

Ms Kazunga: Mr Chairperson, Programme 5071, Activity 006 – Focused Antenatal Care & Safe Motherhood – K569, 521, 681, the funds are allocated for safe motherhood activities, focused antenatal care, delivery, post-natal and new-born care, safe motherhood action groups, whose main role is to sensitise women, and access to reproductive health services.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Namugala: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5071, Activity 002  –  Family Planning Services  –  K397, 200, 680. What actual services will be provided under this activity?

Ms Kazunga: Mr Chairperson, the funds are required to meet the cost of scaling up the provision of family planning services in the country. The main focus is the strengthening of family planning services at the facility and community levels.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala indicated dissent.

The Chairperson: Order!

I can see that Hon. Namugala is not satisfied, but I have to put the question.

Vote 45/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 45/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 45/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 45/07  –  (Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Child Health  –  Department of Mother and Child Health  –  K215, 048, 000).

Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5001. This vote has only one programme with the total of K215, 048, 000. This is the whole Department of Mother and Child Health. Are some activities missing there? Can I get confirmation from the hon. Minister? Why should the whole department have only one programme?

Ms Kazunga: Mr Chairperson, this is an activity-based Budget. There is nothing missing. It is just as it is.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 45/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 45/10 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 45/11 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 45/12  –  (Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Child Health  –  Eastern Province  –  K122, 030, 999, 298).

Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5000  –  Personal Emoluments  –  K3, 419, 317, 612, Programme 5024  – Health Service Delivery  – K428, 449, 155 and Programme 5025  – Health Systems Management  –  K282, 669, 775. Why has Personal Emoluments consumed 83 per cent of the total allocation while Service Delivery has 17 per cent, and yet the vote that we have just passed for Lundazi has a ratio of 175:25? 

Mr Kazunga: Mr Chairperson, as I said earlier, this is an activity-based Budget and we are following the activities.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Vote 45/12 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 45/13 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 45/14 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 45/15 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 45/16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 45/17 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 45/18 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 45/19 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 08 – (Cabinet Office – Office of the President – K126,883,655,541).

The Vice-President: Mr Chairman, I stand here to present the budget for Cabinet Office for 2013.

Sir, Cabinet Office is the highest administrative office in the Public Service and is responsible for co-ordinating the effective implementation of Government policies, systems and procedures and the monitoring and evaluation of the overall performance of the Public Service for the efficient administration of Government. Cabinet Office operates directly under the Office of the President of the Republic of Zambia.

Mr Chairperson, the mandate of Cabinet Office is derived from Articles 53(1) and (2) of the Constitution of Zambia, Chapter 1 of the Laws of Zambia. Government offices comprise the following offices and divisions:

    (a)    Office of the Secretary to the Cabinet supported by the two Deputy Secretaries to the Cabinet responsible for administration and Civil Service travel and re-organisation;

    (b)    offices of the Former Presidents;

    (c)    Administrative Division;

    (d)    Management Development Division; and 

    (e)    Policy Analysis and Co-ordination Division.

Mr Chairman, the responsibilities of Cabinet Office cut across all the Government ministries and institutions in the Public Service in relation to supervision and overseeing the policy implementation process in the Government. Cabinet Office is the policy centre for Government administration and management. In addition, Cabinet Office takes responsibility of ad hoc commissions and new functions that may not have yet been allocated to any specific ministry or institution. The office also considers appeals and arbitrates between contending Government ministries and agencies.

Mr Chairperson, in order to fulfill its mandate, the following mission statement guides Cabinet Office: 

“To co-ordinate the formulation and implementation of Government policies, programmes, systems and procedures and to monitor and evaluate the overall performance of the Public Service for the efficient and effective management of Government business.”

Mr Chairperson, in line with this mission, the following programmes will be undertaken in 2013:

        (a)    General Administration

        Under this programme, the following major activities will be undertaken;

(i)Public Affairs and Summit Meetings – Cabinet Office will continue to facilitate Presidential local and foreign travel, maintain and operate the Presidential aircraft and motor vehicle fleet in order to enable the President to perform his executive functions. In addition, Cabinet Office will facilitate the hosting and participation in both local and foreign summits and meetings.

(ii)Support to Offices of the Former Presidents – Cabinet Office will continue to provide administrative support services to the offices of the First and Fourth Presidents as well as support families of the Second and Third Presidents in accordance with the provisions of the Benefits of Former Presidents’ Act. 

(iii)Support Services to the Office of the First Lady – to enhance transparency and accountability in the administration of support services to the Office of the First Lady, a specific budget line has been created to facilitate the undertaking of national assignments by the First Lady on behalf of the President.

(iv)State Functions – Cabinet Office will continue to facilitate and organise State functions in commemoration of national events for the President to perform his ceremonial duties

    (b)    Support to strategic institutions

Under this programme, Cabinet Office will provide funding to Government communication departments in order to facilitate effective and secure communication between Cabinet Office and other strategic institutions;

    (c)    Cabinet Meetings and Management of the Policy Process 

Cabinet Office will continue to facilitate Cabinet meetings and co-ordinate the formulation of public policies, monitor and evaluate their implementation by Government ministries and institutions in order to achieve the aspirations of the PF Government;

    (d)    Strategic Planning, Restructuring and Institutional Development 

Cabinet Office will continue to institutionalise strategic management in the Public Service. In this regard, comprehensive organisational or institutional assessments and organisational development will be undertaken in order to facilitate effective restructuring of ministries and institutions aimed at improving service delivery. In addition, Cabinet Office will extradite the restructuring of provincial and district administration as well as facilitate implementation of new structures for city, municipal and district councils in accordance with a devolved, decentralised system of Government; and

    (e)    Performance Management Systems

To enhance accountability of ministries and institutions to the public, Cabinet Office will continue to roll out performance management systems such as the revised Annual Performance Appraisal System (APAS) and service delivery charters.

Mr Chairperson, it is evident that Cabinet Office plays a pivotal and critical role in the management of the Public Service and the provision of policy direction to the nation. Therefore, the funds being requested for in the 2013 Estimates of expenditure for the office will be necessary for the effective execution of the aforementioned responsibilities. I, therefore, request the hon. Members of this august House to support these Estimates.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Chairperson, in supporting this Vote for Cabinet Office, I reluctantly want to comment on the strange activity that has been introduced. The First Lady has been formally dragged into politics for the first time ever. K1.5 billion has been allocated for her to be some sort of Civil Servant allowing her to take assignments on behalf of the President. She must go and campaign … 

Hon. Government Member: Aah! Where? 

Mr Muntanga: … like she has been doing. The First Lady is now being dragged into active politics. This is the first time K1.5 billion has been allocated to the office of the First Lady. Check and you will find that it has never been done before. Will the First Lady now be assigned to represent the President formally? Where is the structure in this Government? Where does she fit in? She is the wife of the President, but you are now making her a Special Assistant to President. What are you doing? 

The Chairman: Order!

Address the Chair to avoid hecklers. This is what they have done. So, please, address the Chair.

Mr Muntanga: This is what they have done, but I want them to understand that I do not accept it. We exchange words as politicians because the PF are only a party in Government. They have now brought the wife of the President to be checked on how she uses the money. Who is going to supervise her? Is it the President? What is the structure of this office? I want the Executive to tell us.

Mr Sing’ombe: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Sing’ombe: Mr Chairperson, I wish to apologise to Hon. Muntanga for interrupting his debate. However, I rise on a very serious point of order. The United States of America (USA) was hit by a very serious ‘sand’ storm last week.

Interruptions

Mr Sing’ombe: I mean Hurricane ‘sand storm’.

Hon. Government Members: Hurricane Sandy!

Laughter

Mr Sing’ombe: You heard what I said. A good number of people lost their lives and property. Is the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs in order to sit comfortably in that seat without bringing a Ministerial Statement to this House to inform us whether we are affected by Hurricane Sandy in the United States of America. 

I need your serious ruling, Mr Chairperson.

The Chairperson: Order!

While that point of order is a sign of good neighbourliness, I think it is irrelevant to the issue under discussion. 

Can the hon. Member continue, please.

Laughter {mospagebreak}

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, in the First Republic, President Kaunda used to inform us whenever he made reshuffles. He would name all the offices under State House and then go to his Cabinet. Since when did you create the office of the wife of the President and allocate K1.5 billion for her to undertake her duties? His Honour the Vice-President said that the First Lady will be representing the President by undertaking Government matters. Why should this be so?

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised. 

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for allowing me to rise on a point of order. Is Hon. Muntanga in order to question this Government’s transparency? We have seen, in the past, that First Ladies have been taken care of by the Government without having budget lines in the Yellow Book. There was a ruling in this House by the Hon. Mr Speaker when the issue of the First Lady using a Government plane was brought up. The case which was cited was the Majority Nakaponda and Everlyn Kangwa Vs Thandiwe Banda. Is he, therefore, in order to mislead the nation by saying that the former First Ladies have not been taken care of at Government’s expense? 

I need your serious ruling, Sir.

The Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Members, when we are discussing the Budget, much as I appreciate the fact that we want to debate through points of order, I think we should move on. Let me advise the hon. Members of the Executive that it is in your interest, just as it is in the interest of all of us here, to move fast.

Can you continue, hon. Member.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, without qualifying your ruling, I wish to say that I was informed, in this House, that the First Lady benefits …

The Chairperson: Order!

You are already qualifying my ruling. Go to your point of discussion.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, my point is that the office of the First Lady cannot be allocated funds. There is no such a position or office in the Government structure. It is known that they benefit from the President’s Budget which we have already past. I am surprised that we have another budget for the First Lady. The Secretary to Cabinet cannot control that lady. He will not be able to control what the First Lady will do with that money. We cannot allow a situation like that. This is not a One Party State for you to do things the way you feel. This is a democratic State where this issue should have been proposed and agreed by all of us in this House. We know that you are too used to mixing things up. You want to take advantage of the whole situation so that you bring confusion. 

Interruptions

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, we know that the tendency of dictators is to confuse systems so that they can get away with anything. We cannot pass this Budget because it has an allocation which does not exist. Already, we have a problem in the Cabinet. So far, you have removed two Secretaries to the Cabinet from their positions. There is total confusion. No wonder there was no information about the Cabinet allocating money to this office. Someone must have just dictated that this should be done. A proper Cabinet structure with the Secretary to the Cabinet would have advised on the creation of this office. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Sir, it is only in dictatorship where such things are done. We know that the Chinese are your friends, but you cannot bring communism to this country. You cannot do that.

Mr Kambwili: Who are you?

Interruptions

Mr Muntanga: Being an hon. Minister does not give you the power to do anything. 

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

I have always told the Executive that dialogue with the person on the Floor is not good. Hon. Minister, please, stop that. 

Continue, hon. Member, please.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, I expect the second person to be sent out like the hon. Member for Gwembe.

Laughter

The Chairperson: Order!

Please, that is the prerogative of the Chair. Do not tell the Chair what to do. 

Continue, hon. Member.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, I know that the Cabinet has increased its Budget from K114,668,126,123 to K126,883,655,541, but the increase with an allocation for an office that does not exist is not acceptable. Last time, I raised the issue concerning the building of a House for the Former President and I expected to see an allocation in the Yellow Book under the offices of the Former Presidents, but it is not there. I think this is because the current President is not a former President yet. I have noted that the provision for this has been pushed to the Ministry of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication. This is another deceit on the Constitution. 

Mr Chairperson, I stand here with a very heavy heart when I see things being done against normal administrative procedure. You may enjoy now while we are advising you, but time will come when you are going to account for your actions. You may feel that the United Party for National Development (UPND) is a small party but, if we come together with the Movement for Multi-Party Democracy (MMD), we will be many and we will be able to point out every mischief you have done. 

Mr Chairperson, I therefore, do not approve a Budget which has a budget item that is meant for an office which does not exist. 

I thank you, Sir. 

The Minister of Youth and Sport (Mr Kambwili): Mr Chairperson, thank you very much for according me this opportunity to add my voice to the debate on the Vote for the Cabinet Office. I will be very brief, and will try and correct the impression which has been created by the previous speaker.

Mr Chairperson, it is, indeed, a well-known fact that there is a lot of propaganda which is being spread in trying to bring the Government down. I think, by and large, we should appreciate the introduction of this budget line for the Office of the First Lady. It is common knowledge that the Office of the First Lady does exist. The First Lady has an aide-de-camp who protects her and also a fleet of vehicles. In the new political dispensation, you know that the African Union (AU) and the Southern Africa Development Community (SADC) have a first lady’s wing. If we may ask, what budget line do they use for this? There is nothing wrong with stating that a particular amount of money will go to the Office of the First Lady, unlike hiding it in the allocation to the Office of the President. All we are trying to do is to be transparent. We all know that there is expenditure which is incurred by the First Lady. Thus, there is no need to continue hiding her expenditure in the allocation to the Office of the President.

Mr Chairperson, the PF Government is only trying to be transparent by telling the people of Zambia that there are expenses which are incurred by the First Lady. Anyone who has been in Government before cannot find anything wrong with this expenditure. It is unfortunate to note that the MMD has joined the UPND in refusing to approve this Vote. You should not paint a picture that people in politics have no integrity. The MMD members know for sure that they were incurring this cost and were paying for all the First Lady’s trips. However, they hid this expense in the Vote for the Office of the President. The PF Government only wants to come out in the open and tell the people of Zambia about this expense. We are not creating any office whatsoever. All we are saying is that we have come up with a budget line indicating the expenditure which goes towards the errands of the First Lady on behalf of the people of Zambia. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Simbao (Senga Hill): Mr Chairperson, I was not going to talk about this office, but I think I should. This nation has a Government in place. Any established office must have an establishment with certain specific positions. Without that, we are legalising the stealing of money which we should not do. If an establishment is put in place for the Office of the First Lady, then we shall argue against it being allocated money. No one is against the First Lady. We know that those who occupy the position of the First Lady move a lot and, at times, they give us a very good face as a country. We are not trying to stop the First Lady from travelling, but are against a situation where we allocate money without an establishment in place. The First Lady is not appearing in any establishment, either at State House or Cabinet. Thus, we do not have any idea of how this money will be used. Let me, again, make it clear that we are not against the First Lady.

Hon. Opposition Members: Very good.

Mr Simbao: Mr Chairperson, let me now talk about Cabinet Office. I do not know whether what I read in the newspapers was correct. The articles in the newspapers stated that the President was saying that some people in the Civil Service were sitting on an MMD volcano. This made me feel very bad because I do not know what these people are expected to be doing. When we were in power, as MMD, we used to refer to them as our enemies, and thought that they did a lot of things for the Opposition. Unfortunately, we are no longer in power and they have, again, become enemies of the party in power. I do not know why the PF cannot feel comfortable with the people that they have in the Civil Service. Yesterday, I heard somebody stating that among the twenty-two Permanent Secretaries, there is only one who has remained in office from those who were there when the PF took over power. Surely, with all these replacements, when is the PF Government going to be comfortable? I really feel sorry for the civil servants, especially those who are at Cabinet Office.

Mr Chairperson, the Cabinet Office is the heart of the nation and not politics. Politicians come and go. The civil servants are technocrats who are educated specialists, unlike the politicians who jump from nowhere to somewhere. The civil servants are educated, and yet these are the people that every Government which comes in power threatens with dismissal. How are these people going to be efficient? If these people are not efficient, there is no way that this country will do anything progressive. Already, we are being told that things are not moving well because of them. Surely, what should they do to please the Government in power? I am sure that when we were in power, they may have realised that we did not like them. There is now a different Government in power and they are, again, thinking that they are not liked by the Government. So, what should they do?

Mr Chisala: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Chisala: Mr Chairperson, I rise on a very serious point of order this afternoon. I did not intend to interrupt my colleague who is debating who comes from the province where I come from. Is Hon. Simbao in order to insult hon. Members of Parliament by stating that they are not as educated as the civil servants who are Permanent Secretaries? 

I need your serious ruling, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: He is expressing an opinion. Thus, we just have to live with that opinion. 

Can the hon. Member continue, please.

Mr Simbao: Mr Chairperson, let me apologise to the hon. Member if he misunderstood my statement. At the moment, I am at pains to accept that what we are doing to the Cabinet Office is correct. I believe that the Cabinet Office needs all the support it can get from us. The Cabinet Office should not, in any way, be politicised. Much as the party that comes into power wants to put in place people whom it believes it can work with, it should not refer to the other people it has not employed as a volcano of another party. What should these people do? 

Mr Chairperson, I stand to be corrected, but let me say that, at the moment, we only have an Acting Secretary to the Cabinet. His Honour the Vice-President said that this is the highest civil servant’s position and that this job is like the President’s job. We know how important the Civil Service is in this country. A country can run for some time without the politicians, but with just the civil servants in place. The civil servants actually run the county.

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 18 30 hours.

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the 
Chair]

Mr Simbao: Mr Chairperson, when business was suspended I was about to talk about appointments in the Civil Service. 

I have difficulties with the Secretary to the Cabinet supervising the Civil Service. From time immemorial, appointments are, at times, not meant for experts in a particular field, but politically biased. Therefore, the Secretary to the Cabinet sometimes finds it very difficult to supervise the Civil Service. 

Mr Chairperson, going forward, it is important that we put politics aside when it comes to the Civil Service. The Civil Service is for all Zambians and not just for the party in power. If we can concentrate on putting the best people in the best positions, I am sure Zambia can make a lot of progress. 

In most cases, however, it seems like we just do things to please ourselves when we are in power and when that power changes hands, the civil servants are the ones who suffer. It would be nice if someone came into power and did not politicise the Civil Service but, instead, made it a professional body. That is the way things are meant to be. 

As the Opposition in this country, we are very concerned that many of the appointments have been politically biased. As such, …

Mr Mbulakulima: On a point of order, Sir. 

Mr Simbao: …we are finding it very difficult to see if there is …

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised. 

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for allowing me to raise a point of order. As you know, I rarely rise on points of order. 

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Hon. Government Member: Yesterday, you rose on a point of order. 

Mr Mbulakulima: Yes, that is just one time. I raised a point of order regarding Mufumbwe.

Laughter 

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Allow the hon. Member to raise the point of order. 

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Chairperson, I am raising a very important point of order because my heart is heavy. Yesterday, I raised a point of order with regard to Mufumbwe. 

Mr Chairperson, we are all Zambians. It is the responsibility of the Government to take care of all of its citizens. Is His Honour the Vice-President in order to sit comfortably here when people in Rufunsa are dying because of the by-election at the ward level? One person has died, four people have been hospitalised and the MMD’s Provincial Chairperson’s vehicle was bashed. People are on the run and the entire Lusaka Police is now heading to Rufunsa while we are seated here comfortably, taking cold water. 

Is His honour the Vice-President in order not to handle such matters which are happening in the country?

Sir, I need your very serious ruling, Sir. 

The Deputy Chairperson: The very serious ruling is that the hon. Member should raise an urgent question for consideration. 

The hon. Member for Senga Hill may continue. 

Mr Simbao: Mr Chairperson, politicising the Civil Service creates the feeling in others who are in the Opposition that the Civil Service cannot be made to work for everyone. We would like to beseech the Government to leave the Civil Service alone. 

Interruptions 

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! 

Please, hon. Members, let us consult quietly. I do not know how many times presiding officers have to remind you of the need to allow an hon. Member on the Floor to debate. Those who are keen on consulting loudly may do so outside so that they do not interrupt the person debating. 

The hon. Member may continue. 

Mr Simbao: Mr Chairperson, we are appealing to the Government to leave the Civil Service alone. We should be made to believe that, whatever those in the Civil Service do, is not done because of pressure from the appointing authority. Things should be done in the interest of the Zambian people. 

I would further like to appeal to the Government to find a way of appointing the Secretary to the Cabinet. Maybe, a commission can be set up which can be appointing the Secretary to the Cabinet. Equally, we should leave the appointment of Permanent Secretaries to the Cabinet Office, with the approval of the party in power, of course. The Secretary to the Cabinet can appoint Permanent Secretaries. 

Mr Chairperson, can you imagine that even in the appointment of a district commissioner (DC), as low as the position is, the Secretary to the Cabinet has no role to play? This is where we have lost it. I think that time has come when the situation should be corrected. I know that people keep referring to the time when we were in Government. We might have done certain things wrongly. However, that is no excuse for the Government in power to continue doing the same wrong things. If something was wrong while they were in the Opposition, it should still be wrong now. Now we are trying to remind them to correct the wrong things. God has blessed them now so that they can reverse the wrongs which they used to see. However, it looks like those wrongs are, instead, being multiplied and getting worse. Maybe, they now think that it is sweeter to do wrong things. They should correct the many wrongs which they used to see now that God has blessed them with power. They condemned the appointment of DCs, Permanent Secretaries, police chiefs and so many other things. They should stop doing the same things and bring Zambia back to the normal state which they were calling for. They, however, seem to like doing things the wrong way using things such as the Public Order Act. 

Mr Chairperson, I thank you. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for the opportunity to debate. I will be brief. I will start by talking about the appointments in the Civil Service. Indeed, we have seen that our colleagues now in power want to reverse all the appointments at senior level that were made during the twenty years of the MMD’s rule. 

Mr Chairperson, this is very surprising, especially that some of the senior members of this Government served in the MMD Government. His Honour the Vice-President and His Excellency the President served for ten years as hon. Ministers. Therefore, some of the people who have served the people of Zambia were appointed during the time that they were in Government. Indeed, my elder brother was Chief of Staff. So, one wonders what they want to achieve. Is it their wish that everyone in the Civil Service wears PF regalia or chants the PF slogan?

Interruptions

Ms Namugala: The Civil Service belongs to the people of Zambia, and not any particular political party. You found them in office and you will leave them just like we also left them. They belong to the people of Zambia. For this reason, we would like to urge those in power to allow the Civil Service to be professional. Those who must move are the politicians. The position of Permanent Secretary is not for friends and relatives, but professional civil servants who have risen through the ranks. As the hon. Member of Parliament for Senga Hill has said, if we did something wrong, correct it but, overall, leave the Civil Service to be professional.

Sir, my second point is on the new provision for the Office of the First Lady. The Office of the First Lady is not constitutional. Why do you want to recognise it and provide for it, when the people of Zambia have so many needs? Are you trying to create a slash fund? You are making the First Lady unpopular because now we will know that, when she travels to Mufumbwe, she is using our money. Her recognition is through the husband who is the President and who holds the constitutional office.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: She is not recognised in her individual capacity.

The hon. Minister of Youth and Sport indicated that the Government used to spend on the First Lady under the MMD. However, the fact is that it did so through the President. It is through the President that the First Lady is recognised. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: Sir, …

Interjections

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Members, I think that this is getting out of hand. The precedent has been set, and I may act more decisively. I do not think that it is honourable, when an hon. Member is talking, for others to respond. What is the use of doing so? This applies to both my left and right. Please, let us observe the decorum of the House, and not turn it into a public drinking place where you can say anything even if you have bought no drink.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: May you, please, continue, hon. Member for Mafinga.

Ms Namugala: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. I was saying that the First Lady is recognised because she is the wife of a constitutional office holder, in this case, the President. Whatever benefits accrue to her, they do so because she is married to the President. We cannot begin, as Parliament, to allocate resources to an office that does not exist constitutionally. This will be tantamount to creating a slash fund. As Zambians, we have many needs. The K1.5 billion allocated to this office can build eight health facilities for the people of Mafinga Constituency.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: The K1.5 billion can support many vulnerable children under PWAS.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: The K1.5 billion can also go a long way in supporting the elderly women in need out there whose children have died of HIV/AIDS. I do not believe that spending K1.5 billion for the First Lady to travel from one place to the other to chant PF slogans is the prudent way to go.

Mr M. B. Mwale: Zoona!

Ms Namugala: Mr Chairperson, the next thing we shall do will be to add hon. Ministers’ wives to the Yellow Book.

Laughter

Ms Namugala: After we have dealt with the First Lady, it will be the Second Lady, then hon. Ministers’ wives and then PS’ wives.

Laughter

Ms Namugala: There is no provision for such in the Constitution. Presidents Kaunda, Chiluba, Mwanawasa and Banda did not provide for the First Lady’s office because they knew that their wives were only recognised through them. That recognition is not constitutional. Maybe, the hon. Ministers and hon. Members of Parliament in the PF have no needs in their constituencies that can be covered by K1.5 billion but, for me, in Mafinga, I want the K1.5 billion to go to children who have to walk 12 km in June to access Grade 1 education. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: This money must go to the women in Petauke who have to travel long distances while pregnant to access maternity care.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: This K1.5 billion should deal with the suffering of the people. After all, the First Lady will still benefit through the husband. We know that.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: Mr Chairperson, I will not approve this K1.5 billion because I do not think that it is a prudent way to spend our meagre resources.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr M. H. Malama (Mfuwe): Mr Chairperson, I have a few points to make on the Vote being debated on the Floor of this House.

Sir, I am prompted to add my voice to the debate on this Vote because issues to do with the Civil Service, which are very important, have been brought to this House, and I hope that people are hearing us clearly. Currently, the Civil Service is pathetic because we, Zambians, especially politicians, have the tendency of pleading for votes at the expense of development, and I disagree with this.

Mr Chairperson, when I was on your left for the past five years, I mentioned, in this House, that it would not be wise for me, for example, to demand an increase in the Community Development Fund (CDF) just because I wanted to be re-elected and come back to this House. That is not good. Leaders must actually provide the leadership. If I am not capable of providing leadership in Mfuwe, where I come from, then somebody else who is wiser than me should actually take over.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr M. H. Malama: This is because we want to see a shining nation one day.

Sir, we have been exposed to other countries, and we all know what is going on in the civil service of these countries. Again, I do not want people to think that we just do not like the Civil Service or civil servants in this country. I just want to remind my colleagues on your left that the working culture in this nation made the MMD to lose the general elections. The pace at which those politicians on your left were moving was not the same as that of the civil servants. It is only wise to point out the wrongs rather than politicising simple things that are supposed to be straightened up to bring development to the nation.

Mr Chairperson, I am getting worried because, when you go to some of the offices occupied by civil servants, the situation there is pathetic. When I was on the left of this House, I was the first person to praise the staff here, at Parliament. I even said that if the Civil Service could learn from the way the staff here at the Parliament conduct themselves, things would be different in the country. If the staff, here, tell you that your work will be ready at 1430 hours, you can rest assured that it will be ready at that particular time. Unfortunately, that is not the case in the Civil Service. That is what we are condemning. If we fail to condemn that, then we are not going anywhere. Let us be serious about our work. We are not here just to enjoy life as PF members.

Mr Chairperson, we need to understand that we are here to bring development to this nation so that posterity can appreciate our work as hon. Members of Parliament.

Mr Chairperson, why is it that no one has ever condemned staff here, at Parliament? Why is it that no one has gone out to condemn staff in the Judiciary? It is because of the work culture in these two institutions. This is what we are pointing out. Our concern should not be viewed as a political move meant to create enmity between the people governing the nation and those in the Civil Service. If we do that, it will be at our own peril because we will not progress.

Mr Chairperson, this is the time we need to be serious about whatever we are doing. I will give you an example, and I think that now is the appropriate time for it. My cousin, who is a teacher of Science, has been transferred from Zambezi where he used to teach at Zambezi Technical School.

Mr Chairperson, it is now eight months since he was transferred, but he has not been accommodated. He is staying in my house. Think of how important Science teachers are in this nation.

Hon. Opposition Members: But that is your Government.

Mr M. H. Malama: Mr Chairman, this is what I am talking about …

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order! 

Allow the hon. Member to debate.

Mr M. H. Malama: Mr Chairman, the transfer I am talking about started way back, probably, even when our colleagues were still in office. It has been said, here, that we are not as educated as the people in the Civil Service. I agree with this. However, if that is the case, then I am getting more worried with the kind of picture we are painting to the people out there? Anyway, we are not allowed to debate ourselves.

Mr Chairperson, I was saying that my cousin has been going to the responsible offices just to fight for a letter for him to start teaching where he has been transferred to. This is what we are talking about regarding the work culture in the Civil Service. However, it is not everyone in the Civil Service whose work culture is bad.

Mr Chairperson, when we come here, we should seriously look at issues that will bring development to the nation. When important issues are pointed out as not being done the way they should be done, we, in the Government, should be flexible and address those concerns. That way, we will deliver to the Zambian people.

Mr Chairperson, this Budget that has been presented to this House is very good. The problem we have is with the people to implement it. That is why we, sometimes, point fingers at some of the civil servants in these offices. The same people actually started the programme of building health posts, which has taken two years to complete even though money was readily available. 

Mr Chairperson, to date, the health posts are not complete. This is our worry, and this is why we are talking about it. As for me, I will not be cowed. I will continue talking about the wrongs in the Civil Service simply because of what my colleagues on the left say. We should give credit where it is due and we give the workers here, at Parliament, ichongedwe.

The Chairperson: Meaning?

Mr M. H. Malama: Mr Chairperson, we give them credit because they have never let us down. I would like to emphasise that fact. I thought that it was very important to debate the work culture in the Civil Service with the hope of correcting the wrong impression that might have been created that the PF is against the Civil Service. They just need to pull up their socks and play their role so that we can all live like we are in paradise. It is for the good of all of us in this country. 

That is what I thought I should add to the debate. We have nothing against the Civil Service.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order! 

Allow the hon. Member to wind up.

Mr M. H. Malama: Mr Chairperson, all we want is for everyone to be serious about their work and, if we, in the PF, will be persecuted for being transparent, the same Zambian people out there will judge us. It was more important to show where all the money was allocated in the Budget. We did not want to hide anything and we thought it was important for all the allocations to be reflected in the Yellow Book so that people can see how the money will be spent.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to say a few words.

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Chairperson, I heard one of the hecklers say, ‘Ebaume, aba’ as my colleague Hon. M. H. Malama was concluding his debate.

Mr Chairperson, when I debated the hon. Minister of Finance’s Budget Speech, I concluded by saying the devil lies in the details. This is precisely what I meant. There is no value in arguing that the former Government might have been hiding details if you cannot prove that allegation. There is absolutely no value in crying foul and saying that you, in the PF, are showing us what you are doing and, thereby, legalising illegalities.

Mr Chairperson, I think that human beings are generally born right, but the systems demonise them. I like Dr Christine Kaseba, and I hope that, at the end of the five years, I will still like her. However, looking at the rate at which the PF want her to get what I will call pecuniary benefit, I fear that the good old First Lady might become very unpopular, not only in my sight, but also that of many others.

Sir, we have been grappling here with the issue of increasing the CDF.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Nkombo: Every hon. Member of this Assembly, including those on your right who represent constituencies, has made a comment either mildly or very strongly about the need to improve the figures on the CDF. We were told that the resource envelope cannot support anything beyond K1 billion for each constituency. However, today, we have learnt that this same resource envelope can support a K1.5 billion budget for the First Lady. This translates to K125 million per month for the First Lady on activities that are not explained. I saw the First Lady two months ago at Kasama Airport and she was with some political party leader. I greeted her and I said what she was doing was perfect. This particular political party leader had just been chastised by one of the mouthpieces of the PF.  This president of a political party is a female.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: The First Lady was supporting the ranting by this particular president of a political party. If we are going to approve the taxpayers’ money to go to support the activities of the First Lady, my advice to her is that she must be mother for all. She must take the posture of mother for all and not take advantage of the fact that the PF has got the advantage of being covered in the media …

Ms Kalima: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kalima: Mr Chairperson, thank you for allowing me to raise this point of order, but I have a concern. The procedures of this House and the debates are aired on Parliament Radio. However, I noticed that a few minutes ago, when Hon. Mbulakulima was raising a point of order, there was music that came on the radio immediately he started raising the point of order and the public did not have the opportunity to listen to the point of order. I would like to know why this is happening, and this is not the first time this is happening. When an hon. Member on this side is raising a point of order, music is played instead.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, order!

Ms Kalima: Is the hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting, who is in charge of all radio stations in this country, in order to allow this to happen?

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Since most of the hon. Members were busy here transacting business, those that were privileged to hear includes a person in the name of Hon. Kalila. All we can say for now is that this will be investigated.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

It will be investigated. I think that is enough.

May the hon. Member continue.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, I am somewhat thrown off balance because I am not sure that I am being heard out there. My point is that just as the ‘don’t kubeba’ slogan of the PF is an immoral issue, I think the act of giving the First Lady K1.5 billion falls in the same category of immorality. I will repeat that ‘don’t kubeba’, in my view, is extremely immoral. This is ‘don’t kubeba’ manifesting itself. Those on your right did not get the favour of the Zambian people to come into office for them to give the First Lady an average of K125 million every month. What is she going to do with this amount of money? 

Even hon. Members in this House who represent constituencies do not get as much money as that. What is the justification for this? When the PF leaves office, whenever that will be, but my wish is that it is in 2016, why not allow the First Lady to leave State House with the same posture that Mama Betty Kaunda left with, may her soul rest in peace? Those hon. Members who talk to the First Lady should advise her to stop commenting on any political issue, if she has to benefit from Government funding. 

She is my mother because she is the wife of the Head of State who is my President. I have no qualms about the fact that His Excellency Mr Michael Sata is my President.  Wherever I go, I tell people that I have a President by the name of Mr Michael Chilufya Sata. Do not allow the First lady to go out of office a very unpopular person. Our colleagues should search their souls because there is poverty in Zambia. 

This allocation to the activities of the First Lady is a luxury. I will understand perfectly well the need to support the home of the second President, as the Yellow Book is providing, because he left a widow. I will support the Vote for supporting the late President Mwanawasa’s household because his wife is a widow. There is a need to support the homesteads of former Presidents’ that are departed. What is the justification of giving K1.5 billion to a wife of a President huchinyamateta?

The Deputy Chairperson: What does that mean, please?

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, that is a Tonga adage which says that the man is still alive; huchinyamateta.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions{mospagebreak}

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, I am simply emphasising the fact that she can continue with her programmes under the ambit of His Excellency the President because State House does have a Vote that supports the activities of the first family, anyway. If we permit the PF to carry on at this rate, by the time it leaves office in 2016, this country would be devastated. Seeing that time is not with us, I just want to emphasise that the Second and Third Presidents are deceased. Therefore, their homes qualify to be supported.

Mr Chairperson, Mazabuka has in excess of 300,000 inhabitants as per last Census of Population. Why must someone think that it is justifiable to give the unrecognised office of the First Lady K125 million per month while my constituency gets K1 billion per year. The Government must stop being reckless although Zambians have been known to be docile. Yes, they can be docile, but for how long are they going to remain docile to allow the Executive to get away with murder? How long shall they permit our colleagues to just carry on allocating money the way they wish with impunity? I must emphasise that I like the First Lady a lot. She is educated and is a doctor. Her profile befits a First Lady. She has the stature of a First Lady.

Interruptions

Mr Nkombo: I think that many of the successes that His Excellency the President may record may be attributed to her. Please, do not demonise her. Do not make an innocent person go into the annuls of history as the First Lady who started having pecuniary benefits even when she was not deserving. 

Mr Mwewa: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, I will say it, again, that human beings are normally good. It is the systems that make them bad. Two months ago, someone questioned, here, the First Lady’s eligibility to use the Challenger Aircraft and hon. PF Members said that there is nowhere where it is written that the First Lady is not entitled to fly. I think that if we allow the PF to just do things as they wish because they think that mighty is right, they are going to pay a very dear price for it one day.

Mr Muntanga: Yes.

Mr Nkombo: That day is drawing nearer and nearer. The PF, through His Honour the Vice-President, made so much defining noise, here, when the Former President, Mr Rupiah Banda’s salary was scaled up just a little bit. They were badly tickled. 

Interruptions

Mr Nkombo: Here they are now squandering money and making the First Lady unpopular. You can say whatever you wish to say, but the fact is that a few minutes from now, I will be among the twelve hon. Members of Parliament who are going to stand up to put on record the fact that this particular Vote is not necessary in the Yellow Book. It should never be misconstrued at any given level that we have misgivings about the First Lady.

Interruptions

Mr Mwewa: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Nkombo: Hon. Mwewa, His Honour the Vice-President is saying sit down.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, order!

There is only one Chairperson and that is me. So, the hon. Member should not assume the responsibility that he has not got.

You can continue, hon. Member.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, I apologise. If less than twelve hon. Members will indicate the fact that this budget line is acrimonious and unnecessary, so be it, but the hour of reckoning shall definitely come. It will knock at your door step. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: The First Lady is in the comfort zone. She is very comfortable. She gets, probably by virtue of her office, many donations from people to her good cause. There are many people of goodwill who will continue to support her activities to put Zambia on the map. She is the mother of this country. Do not forget that the slash fund that the late Former Second President Chiluba introduced made him extremely unpopular. That is what is going to happen to you, colleagues. 

Interruptions

Mr Nkombo: That shall surely happen and you will remember that you did ‘don’t kubeba’ on the Zambian people. They will show you a red card in 2016. They are going to throw you out of office and you will be back here if you will be lucky and, if you will not be lucky, you will be outside this Parliament wall; back to the Copperbelt where you came from.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, I have seldom heard so much insincerity back to back as I have heard over the last few speakers’ contributions. It is perfectly obvious and, if it was not obvious, it should have been made obvious in my speech that there is no remuneration for the First Lady involved in this Vote. She is not being paid. The question of her costs is being transferred from one Vote to a new one so that the actual expenditures are recorded. There is no invention of K1.5 billion that was not there before …

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

The Vice-President: Hon. Namugala, Hon. Nkombo and Hon. Muntanga know that. You are just being mischievous. Now …

Mr Muntanga: On a point of order, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, His Honour the Vice-President has mentioned my name and said that I am mischievous. Is he in order to say that I am mischievous when he knows very well that there has been never a time that the First Lady has ever had a Vote approved here other than the fact that she benefits through State House? Is she in order? 

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Muntanga: He looks like a woman.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Is he in order to imply that I am mischievous when he is mischievous himself by including the First Lady’s expenses as a single Vote?

The Deputy Chairperson: The hon. Member has debated the point of order sufficiently.

His Honour the Vice-President, continue.

The Vice-President:  This Vote is out of respect for the House to make you see what we may be funding on the First Lady’s logistics.  There is no champagne, clothing or personal benefit intended or involved in this.  Hon. Muntanga should sometimes talk to my wife. She hates being denied the rights to drive. She has to move in a police car with a body guard and driver and she hates it.  

Hon. Opposition Member: Ooh!

The Vice-President: Yes.

The Deputy Chairperson:  Order! 

Can you, hon. Members, please, allow His Honour the Vice-President to debate?

The Vice-President: The fact is there are procedures, laws, rules and regulations about the movement of wives of senior Government officials and what we are doing is moving it from the invisible into the visible domain. If you do not like that, I consider you to be very retrograde. Hon. Namugala is saying that we could build so many clinics from the same money. It is the same money as is there anyway. So, there is no issue. If you want to vote on it, let us vote on it, finish.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, order! 

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3001, Activity 700 – Support Services to the First Lady – K1,500,000,000. Why should there be an allocation to an office that does not exist?

Thank you, Sir.

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, it is not an allocation to an office. It is an allocation to the support of an activity. 

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Chairperson, I would like to find out from His honour the Vice-President whether the Government can support an illegal activity that has not been authorised by the procedures of the Government of the Republic of Zambia?

Thank you, Sir.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, in our view, quite clearly, the allocation is not illegal. Otherwise, we would not have brought it before the House. So, the legality may remain to be determined but, for the time being, we wish to be transparent rather than to hide expenditure.

Thank you, Sir.

Ms Namugala: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3001, Activity 700 – Support Services to the First Lady – K1,500,000,000. What are the details of this activity?

Thank you, Sir.

 The Vice-President: It consists of various activities which include security, trips and convening meetings. The activities are similar to the ones the President and myself engage in.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, could His Honour the Vice-President indicate to me and to the House …

The Chairperson: What programme and activity are you referring to?

Mr Nkombo: I am referring to Programme 3001, Activity 700 – Support Services to the First Lady – K1,500,000,000. His Honour the Vice-President indicated that Hon. Namugala is aware about where this vote is transferred from. Could he enlighten me on where this particular budget line has existed in the last 48 years of this country.

The Vice-President: Well, I mean …

Laughter

The Vice-President: The questioner is asking for a level of detail which is not to be expected in this type of debate. It has been taken from, maybe, the State House budget or the one from the Cabinet Office budget.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3001, Activity 700 – Support Services to the First Lady – K1,500,000,000. His Honour the Vice-President has indicated that among the activities that are supported is security. Is he telling us that the security which will be given to the First Lady will be different? As far as we know, security for the First Lady is from the Protective Unit within the Zambia Police Force. Will it be a different wing providing security?

Thank you, Sir.
The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, of course, it will not be different. This money is going to be spent anyway, one way or the other. We are just trying to bring it out in the open for your delectation. 

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3001, Activity 033 – Support Services to the Second President’s Family – K829,600,000, Activity 037 – Support Services to the Third President’s Family – K829,600,000 and Activity 700 – Support Services to the First Lady – K1,500,000, 000. What are the differences in these activities? Does it mean that the First Lady is now a widow?

Thank you, Sir.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Allow His Honour the Vice-President to answer.

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, I regard that question offensive.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members called for a division.

Question that Vote 08/01 – Cabinet Office – Office of the President – Headquarters – K112,885,470,806 be ordered to stand part of the Estimates put and the House voted.

Ayes – (65)

Mrs E. Banda
Mr C. Banda
Mr N. Banda
Mr Bwalya
Mr Chabala
Colonel Chanda
Mr Chansa
Mr Chenda
Mr Chikwanda
Mr Chilangwa
Mr Chisala
Mr Chishimba
Mr Chitotela
Mr Chungu
Mr Kalaba
Mr Kambwili
Mr Kampyongo
Ms Kansembe
Mr Kapaya
Mr Kapeya
Mr Kapyanga
Dr Kasonde
Dr Katema
Colonel Kaunda
Mr Kazabu
Ms Kazumga
Mr Kosamu
Mr Kufuna
Ms Limata
Mr Lubinda
Colonel Lungu
Dr Lungu
Mr Mabumba
Mr Mwimba Malama
Mr Mbulu
Mr Mpundu
Mr Mucheleka
Mr Mukanga
Mr Mulenga
Mr Mumba
Mr Mushanga
Mr B. Mutale
Dr Mwali
Mr Mwamba
Mr Mwango
Mr Mwenya
Mr Mwewa
Mr Mwila
Mr Ng’onga
Dr Phiri
Mr Sakeni
Mr Sampa
Dr Scott
Mr Shamenda
Mr Sichinga
Mr Sichone
Mr Sichula
Mr Sikazwe
Dr Simbyakula
Mr Simuusa
Mr Tembo
Mrs Wina
Mr Yaluma
Mr J. Zimba
Mr Zulu

Noes – (43)

Mr Antonio
Mr I. Banda
Mr W. Banda
Mr Belemu
Mr Chingimbu
Mr Chisanga
Mr Chishiba
Dr Chituwo
Mr Hamudulu
Dr Kalila
Ms Kalima
Mr Katambo
Mr Katuka
Dr Kazunga
Mr Livune
Mr Lufuma
Mr Mushili Malama
Mr Mbewe
Mr Mbulakulima
Mr Miyanda
Mr Miyutu
Mr Monde
Mr Mulomba
Mr Muntanga
Dr Musokotwane
Mr M. Mutale
Mr Mutelo
Mr M. B. Mwale
Mr Mwiimbu
Ms Namugala
Mr Ngoma
Mr Njeulu
Mr Nkombo
Mr Pande
Mr Siamunene
Mr Sianga
Reverend Sikwela
Mr Sililo
Ms Siliya
Mr Simbao
Mr Simfukwe
Mr Singo’mbe
Mr L. Zimba 

Abstentions – (0)

Question accordingly agreed to.

Vote 08/01 ordered to stand part of Estimates.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Members left the Assembly Chamber.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Vote 08/03 ordered to stand part of Estimates.

Vote 08/04 ordered to stand part of Estimates.

Vote 08/06 ordered to stand part of Estimates.

Vote 08/07 ordered to stand part of Estimates.

Vote 08/08 ordered to stand part of Estimates.

VOTE 09/01 – (Teaching Service Commission – Office of the President – Headquarters –K5,814,065,740).

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, the specific functions of the Teaching Service Commission are prescribed under section 122 of the Service Commission Act which is to make appointments to any office in the Teaching Service and all similar activities. I, therefore, urge this august House to support this budget as presented.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, I wish to thank all hon. Members for the support.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 09/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 10 – (Police and Prisons Service Commission – Office of the President – K4, 276, 579, 949).

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, this institution fulfils the same function for the police as it does for the prisons. I therefore, implore hon. Members to support it. 

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chisala (Chilubi): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to say something on the Vote for the Police and Prisons Service Commission (PPSC). 

Mr Chairperson, while I appreciate the role that the commission plays, I want to indicate that we still have a lot to do in this country. The PPSC plays a very instrumental role in the promotion of officers under the Police and Prisons departments. Unfortunately, that is not happening. We have police officers, particularly in Chilubi, who are not promoted. I, therefore, urge this commission to look into the issues affecting the Police and Prisons Service and ensure that our officers are motivated through promotions. The commission should also make sure that transport is provided for these people to work effectively. 

Mr Chairperson, with these remarks, I support the Vote.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, I thank the hon. Member for supporting the Vote.

I thank you, Sir. 

Vote 10/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

_______

HOUSE RESUMED

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

(Progress reported)
______

MOTION

ADJOURNMENT

The Vice-President (Dr Scott): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn

Question put and agreed to.
______

The House adjourned at 1947 hours until 0900 hours on Friday, 9th November, 2012.