Debates- Wednesday, 14th November, 2012

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DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE SECOND SESSION OF THE ELEVENTH ASSEMBY

Wednesday, 14th November, 2012

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

_______________

ANNOUNCEMENT BY MR SPEAKER

RULING BY THE HON. MR SPEAKER ON THE POINT OF ORDER RAISED BY HON. D. MWILA, MP, THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF DEFENCE ON THE RECOGNITION OF THE MOVEMENT FOR MULTI-PARTY DEMOCRACY (MMD) AS OFFICIAL OPPOSITION IN THE HOUSE

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members will recall that on 19th June, 2012, while the House was considering Question for Oral Answer No. 285 on the Order Paper, asked by Mr O. Chisala, Member of Parliament for Chilubi, the then Deputy Minister of Copperbelt Province, Hon. Mwila, MP, raised the following point of order:

“Mr Speaker, I stand on a very serious point of order which is procedural. Is the hon. Member of Parliament for Lunte, who is Leader of the Opposition, in order to continue holding this position when the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) does not meet the required number of fifty-three seats?”

“When we were elected, the MMD had fifty-five seats. After Mr Mwakalombe resigned as Member of Parliament for Chongwe, joined the Patriotic Front (PF) and it contested the seat and won, the number reduced to fifty-four. The High Court nullified two MMD seats, namely Livingstone and Chama North. That brought the number to fifty-two. Mr Speaker, the former Vice-President, who was hon. Member of Parliament for Muchinga, died and the number of seats has further reduced to fifty-one.”

“Is the hon. Member for Lunte in order to continue holding this position when the party does not meet the required number of Members in the House?”

“I need your serious ruling.”

In my immediate remarks, I stated that until I directed otherwise, the MMD would continue to be recognised as the official Opposition in the House and, its Leader, Mr Felix Mutati, MP, Member of Parliament for Lunte Parliamentary Constituency, as Leader of the Opposition. In so doing, I had indicated that, in view of the then emergent by-elections, I would address the House on the issue raised by Hon. Mwila at an appropriate juncture. However, before I could make a ruling on the matter, Hon. Mwila, again, raised another point of order on Friday, 9th November, 2012, asking the same question as in the earlier point of order. 

Hon. Members, following the conduct of by-elections in Livingstone, Chama North, Muchinga and, recently, Mufumbwe, I now wish to make a ruling on the point of order raised by Hon. Mwila, MP.

The House will recall that on 19th October, 2011, a decision was made to recognise the MMD as the official Opposition Political Party and Hon. Mutati as Leader of the Opposition. This was upon my office receiving communication from the MMD that, as the membership of the party had met the requisite threshold of one-third of the Members to qualify for Leader of Opposition, the party had appointed Hon. Mutati as Leader of the Opposition. 

However, the House may wish to know that, in a letter dated 18th July, 2012, the National Secretary of the MMD, Major Kachingwe, informed my office that Hon. Mutati had tendered his resignation to the President of the MMD as Leader of the Opposition with effect from 22nd July, 2012, which the President had accepted. 

In line with Article 137 of the Constitution, the effective date of resignation was 18th July, 2012, being the day that my office received his resignation letter. Accordingly, on Monday, 23rd July, 2012, the National Assembly of Zambia withdrew all the benefits that were accorded to Hon. Mutati in his capacity as Leader of the Opposition. 

Hon. Members, since that time, there has been no replacement of Hon. Mutati, MP, due to the uncertainty over the number of MMD Members of Parliament.

Hon. Members may wish to note that the power to recognise an official opposition political party in the House is vested in the Speaker. Further, in Zambia, as the House is aware, neither the Republican Constitution nor any other law, provides for the recognition or status of an opposition party in the House. However, employing Parliamentary convention and practice existing in many Commonwealth Parliaments, the National Assembly of Zambia has, by practice, established four conditions which an opposition political party in the House has to satisfy before it is recognised as an official opposition party. These are as follows:

(i)    it should have a distinct ideology and programme of work, whether in the political, economic or social field, which was announced by it at the time of the general elections, and on which it has been retained to the House;

(ii)    it should form a homogenous unit capable of developing into a well-knit entity;

(iii)    it should have an organisation, both inside and outside the House, which is in contact with public opinion on all important issues before the country; and

(iv)    it should, at least, be able to command a strength which will enable it to keep the House running, i.e. its number should not be less than the quorum fixed to constitute a sitting of the House.

Hon. Members, with regard to the requirement for an official opposition political party to have a membership able to constitute a quorum fixed for the sitting of the House, Article 84(4) of the Constitution provides as follows:

“The quorum for a meeting of the National Assembly shall be one third of the total number of Members of the National Assembly and, if, at any time during a meeting of the National Assembly, objection is taken by any member present that there is no quorum, it shall be the duty of the Speaker, or the person acting as such, either to adjourn the National Assembly or, as he may think fit, to suspend the meeting until there is a quorum.”

The quorum of the National Assembly, as stated in the Constitution, is one third of the total number of 159 Members which, translated into figures, is fifty-three Members.

Hon. Members, at the time I made the decision to recognise the MMD as Official Opposition, the membership of the Opposition Political Parties in the House was as follows:

Political Party     No. of Members

Movement for Multi-Party Democracy (MMD)        54    

United Party for National Development (UPND)    28                
Alliance for Democracy and Development (ADD)        01    

Forum for Democracy and Development (FDD)    01            

Independent Members    03             

Based on these statistics, the MMD had satisfied the requisite quorum, and hence the party was recognised as Official Opposition in the House.

These figures, however, have since changed following the Parliamentary by-elections in Livingstone Central, Chama North, Muchinga and, in more recent times, Mufumbwe Parliamentary Constituency. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker:  In this regard, the current membership of opposition political parties in the House stands as follows:

Political Party    No. of Members

Movement for Multi-Party Democracy (MMD)        51      

United Party for National Development (UPND)        30    

Alliance for Democracy and Development (ADD)     01        

Forum for Democracy and Development (FDD)     01         

Independent Members    02                    
Hon. Members, as matters stand at the moment, none of the opposition political parties in the House have the requisite fifty-three Members to satisfy the quorum as provided for under Article 84(4) of the Constitution.  In this vein, the decision made on 19th October, 2011 to recognise the MMD as Official Opposition in the House is hereby revoked.

I thank you. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

________

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

MEDICAL PERSONNEL FOR SEJAMBA RURAL HEALTH CENTRE IN MULOBEZI

262. Mr Sililo (Mulobezi) asked the Minister of Health when qualified medical personnel would be posted to Sejamba Rural Health Centre in Mulobezi District which is currently run by a security guard.

The Deputy Minister of Health (Dr Chikusu): Mr Speaker, Sejamba Rural Health Centre in Mulobezi District has one Zambia Enrolled Midwife by the name of Leidone Musheka. In addition, there are two qualified Community Health Assistants, namely Ndui and Mwembe Limwanya. 

Mr Speaker, the recruitment process for 2012 is still ongoing, and more qualified staff will be posted to Sejamba Rural Health Centre in Mulobezi District by the end of this year.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mufalali (Senanga): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister is saying that there is trained medical staff in Sejamba, but I was there last weekend for a funeral and there was no trained medical personnel. Where is he getting his information from? He also once said that there was a doctor in Sichili when there is no doctor in Sichili and no trained medical personnel in Sejamba. 

Dr Chikusu: Mr Speaker, the position is that, as of yesterday, the Provincial Medical Officer, Dr Sitali, was in Sesheke with the District Medical Officer (DMO). Apparently, he was with the hon. Member of Parliament. Therefore, that is the position.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Sianga (Sesheke): Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister tell this august House and the Nation at large when the Clinical Officer was posted to Sejamba?

Dr Chikusu: Mr Speaker, I have said that there is no Clinical Officer, but a Zambia Enrolled Midwife and two Community Health Assistants.
Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Mr Speaker, is the hon. Deputy Minister aware that the statement that the Provincial Medical Officer met the area hon. Member of Parliament is null and void because the hon. Member of Parliament for that place does not remember meeting the …

Mr Speaker: Order!

Is that a question or a statement?

Mr Miyutu: … Provincial Medical Officer …

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Order!

A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I rise on a very serious point of order. Is the hon. Deputy Minister in order to inform the House that he visited the clinic with the hon. Member of Parliament for Sesheke when he found the members of staff he has been talking about? Is he in order to mislead this House because the hon. Member of Parliament has disputed that statement?

Mr Speaker: Order!

My short ruling is that I will invite the hon. Deputy Minister to take that into account as he responds. Hon Member for Kalabo Central, you may continue.

Mr Miyutu: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Deputy Minister aware that the information he has been provided with is incorrect, owing to the fact that the area hon. Member of Parliament, who has been to that place, says that the situation on the ground is different?

Dr Chikusu: Mr Speaker, in response to Hon. Mwiimbu’s statement, I wish to state that I did not go there. I made it clear that it was the Provincial Medical Officer who went to the place in question. Thus, Hon. Mwiimbu’s assertion falls away. Since the members of staff who are said to be at the place in question are known by name, my response can be verified even today.

I thank you, Sir.

WHEELCHAIRS FOR PERSONS WITH DISABILITY

263. Mr Chisala (Chilubi) asked the Minister of Community Development, Mother and Child Health how many persons with disabilities countrywide were given wheelchairs by the Government from 2009-2011, year by year.

The Deputy Minister of Community Development, Mother and Child Health (Mrs Kazunga): Mr Speaker, the answer is as follows:

Year       No. of Wheelchairs     Male Beneficiaries     Female Beneficiaries
2009    110    61             49
2010    128    73             55
2011    608    316            292
Total        846            450            396

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chisala: Mr Speaker, I have observed that for many years, there has not been any equity in the distribution of wheelchairs. To some extent, the rural communities are marginalised. Is there a way in which the ministry can ensure the equitable of distribution of wheelchairs so that rural communities can benefit from this service?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Community Development, Mother and Child Health (Dr Katema): Mr Speaker, this challenge has been noticed by my ministry. I am appealing to hon. Members of Parliament and other leaders to sensitise people with disabilities so that they can benefit from not only the wheelchairs, but also other programmes such as the social cash transfer and food security pack. Our people need to be sensitised so that they can fully benefit from the programmes being run by my ministry. We take these wheelchairs where there is demand.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwiimbu: (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Minister for that answer. However, I want to find out from him whether he is confirming to the nation that all members of the public with disabilities are entitled to cash transfers and that all those who need wheelchairs will be given them. I want a specific answer. We all have people with disabilities in our constituencies.

Dr Katema: Mr Speaker, unfortunately, the hon. Member of Parliament likes putting words in people’s mouths.

Laughter

Dr Katema: Mr Speaker, I said that persons with disabilities should be sensitised so that they can request not only wheelchairs, but also other provisions such as social cash transfers in districts were we offer them.

Hon. Government Member: It is one of the programmes.

Dr Katema: Mr Speaker, yes, it is one of the programmes. The food security pack is another facility which people can access in the districts where they are. That is what I said.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Speaker, the initial question was specifically about wheelchairs. Other than having information about the social cash transfer, does the ministry have a database of all the Zambians who require wheelchairs? Since he said that we should help him sensitise those who require wheelchairs about the programmes offered by his ministry, I would like to know, for instance, how many wheelchairs his ministry will allocate to each district once this sensitisation is done.

Dr Katema: Mr Speaker, I am glad to inform this House that we are going to carry out a nationwide survey to ascertain the magnitude of the problem of disabilities. That means that we want to find out what kind of disabilities affect people, and where these people are so that we can serve them better. We will carry out the survey very soon.  In addition to this Government programme, we also have service clubs such as the Lions Clubs and Rotary Club which assist the Government to distribute wheelchairs.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mushanga (Bwacha): Mr Speaker, I want to find out from the hon. Minister whether there are any conditions which have to be met by those who are disabled for them to benefit from the distribution of wheelchairs. 

Dr Katema: Mr Speaker, the only condition is that the person must be disabled and registered under the Zambia Agency for Persons with Disabilities. This makes it easier for us to identify those who are in need of wheelchairs.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has appealed to the hon. Members to help sensitise the disabled about the programmes offered by his ministry while, at the same time, he is still compiling a list so that he comes up with data regarding all those who are disabled in the country. May I know what he wants hon. Members to do exactly. Who should the hon. Members sensitise when he is still compiling a list?

Dr Katema: Mr Speaker, I only talked about sensitisation when the hon. Member of Parliament said that there are a lot of people in the rural areas who do not have access to wheelchairs, but are in need of them. That is why I said that hon. Members of Parliament can assist the people who are in need so that they can access those services through my ministry. That was the rationale behind that statement.

So, if the hon. Member who has asked the question has no persons with disabilities who require wheelchairs, there is no need for him to sensitise them that my ministry provides such things. However, those who see the need can sensitise the members of the community so that they access these facilities.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mufalali: Mr Speaker, I am one of the hon. Members who have been sensitising people with disabilities. Is the hon. Minister aware that when these people go to the community development offices, they are told to go back to the hon. Member’s office. Is he aware that his offices do not provide any form of support?

Dr Katema: Mr Speaker, I am not aware of anybody who has been sent away. We only ask people to return later when we want to scout around for what they need.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr L. J. Ngoma (Sinda): Mr Speaker, the question has been overtaken by events.

__________

MOTION

WAYS AND MEANS

The Minister of Finance (Mr Chikwanda): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now resolve into Committee of Ways and Means to consider the raising of supply.  

I am a bearer of seven messages from His Excellency the President, recommending that this Motion, which I now lay on the Table, be proceeded with in this House.

Mr Chikwanda laid the paper on the Table.

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Speaker, as result of the Budget, which I presented to this House on 12th October, 2012, it is necessary to introduce certain financial measures which I will outline in the Committee of Ways and Means.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

Question put and agreed to.

__________{mospagebreak}

COMMITTEE OF WAYS AND MEANS

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the Chair]

CUSTOMS AND EXCISE 

The Minister of Finance (Mr Chikwanda): Mr Chairperson, I beg to move that it is expedient to amend the Customs and Excise Act so as to:

(a)remove the duty on rail, locomotives and water vessels;

(b)remove the duty on equipment, plant and machinery;

(c)remove the duty on cameras, especially designed for medical or surgical examination of internal organs and comparison cameras for forensic or criminological purposes;

(d)remove duty on instruments, appliances and furniture used in the medical, surgical, dental or veterinary sciences;

(e)remove duty on ambulances, motorcycles and engines;

(f)remove excise duty on water and aerated artificial water;

(g)remove duty on cooking appliances and other plate warmers that use gas fuel other than electric energy;

(h)revise the rates of customs and excise duty payable on certain goods; and

(i)provide for matters connected with or incidental to the foregoing and that a Bill to give effect to this be introduced accordingly.

Mr Chairperson, I beg to move.

Mr Chairperson, the purpose of this Motion is to enable me introduce legislation to amend the Customs and Excise Act so as to introduce changes that I announced in my Budget Speech on 12th October, 2012.

Sir, I urge the hon. Members to support the Bill.

I thank you, Sir.

Question put and agreed to.

INCOME TAX

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move that it is expedient to amend the Income Tax Act so as to:

(a)limit capital deduction claims for expenditure on mining equipment, plans or machinery to the time when such assets have been put in use;

(b)reduce the capital expenditure reduction for persons carrying out mining operations from 100 per cent to 25 per cent;

(c)increase the withholding tax rate on payments to non-residents of management or consultancy fees and royalties from 15 per cent to 20 per cent;

(d)increase the turn-over tax threshold from K200 million to K800 million per annum;

(e)subject interest payments on debt made by mining companies to transfer pricing rules;

(f)remove the withholding tax holiday on payments made by a person developing a multi-facility economic zone or an industrial park to any person operating in a multi-facility economic zone or industrial park;

(g)remove withholding tax on interest earned by individuals from savings or deposit accounts held in financial institutions;

(h)harmonise the corporate income tax rate at 15 per cent for income earned from the production of organic fertiliser with that from the manufacture of chemical fertiliser;

(i)amend the pay-as-you-earn tax regime by increasing the income tax-free threshold from K2 million to K2.2 million per month and adjust the tax bands;

(j)increase the allowable pension contribution deduction to K3,000,060 from K1,860,000;

(k)limit the period in which pay-as-you-earn can be claimed to six years from the end of the charge year to which the claim relates; and 

(l)provide for matters connected with, or incidental to, the foregoing. 

Further, that a Bill to give effect to this be introduced accordingly.

Sir, the purpose of this Motion is to enable me to introduce legislation to amend the Income Tax Act so as to introduce charges which I announced in the Budget Speech on 12th October, 2012.

Mr Chairperson I urge the hon. Members to support the Bill.

I thank you, Sir.

Question put and agreed to. 

MEDICAL LEVY 

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move that it is expedient to repeal the Medical Levy Act of 2003 and that a Bill to give effect to this be introduced accordingly.

Mr Chairperson, the purpose of this Motion is to enable me to introduce legislation to amend the Medical Levy Act so as to introduce changes that I announced in my Budget Speech on 12th October, 2012.

Sir, I urge the hon. Members to support the Bill. 

Question put and agreed to. 

MINES AND MINERALS DEVELOPMENT

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move that it is expedient to amend the Mines and Minerals Development Act, so as to:

(a)empower the hon. Minister to approve the transfer, assignment, encumbrances or other dealings in a mining right upon the production of a valid tax clearance certificate by the mining right holder; and

(b)provide for matters connected with, or incidental to, the foregoing.

Further, that the Bill to give effect to this be introduced accordingly. 

Mr Chairperson, the purpose of this Motion is to enable me introduce legislation to amend the Mines and Mineral Development Act so as to introduce changes that I announced in my Budget Speech on 12th October, 2012.

Mr Chairperson, I dutifully urge the hon. Members to support the Bill.

Question put and agreed to. 

PROPERTY TRANSFER TAX

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move that it is expedient to amend the Property Transfer Act so as to:

(a)introduce a 10 per cent tax on the transfer, assignment, encumbrance or other dealings in mining right or interest;

(b)to provide for the basis for determining the value of a mining right at the same time of the transfer, assignment, encumbrance or dealing with the mining right or interest;

(c)revise the conditions for the approval of the transfer of a mining right or interest by the hon. Minister responsible for mines; and

(d)provide for matters connected with, or incidental to, the foregoing, and that a Bill to give effect to this be introduced accordingly.

Mr Chairperson, the purpose of this Motion is to enable me to introduce legislation to amend the Property Transfer Tax Act so as to introduce the changes that I announced in my Budget Speech on 12th October, 2012. 

Sir, I therefore, urge all hon. Members to support the Bill.

I thank you, Sir.

Question put and agreed to.

VALUE ADDED TAX 

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move that it is expedient to amend the Value Added Tax Act so as to:

(a)make it mandatory for suppliers dealing in taxable supplies to submit output tax schedules for supplies made to taxable suppliers;

(b)introduce the validity period of Value Added Tax invoices;

(c)administratively review the decision and directions of the authority;

(d)provide for international exchange of tax information and mutual assistance in tax matters; and

(e)provide for matters connected with, or incidental to, the foregoing, and that a Bill to give effect to this be introduced accordingly.
Mr Chairperson, the purpose of this Motion is to enable me to introduce legislation to amend the Value Added Tax Act so as to introduce the changes that I announced in my Budget Speech on 12th October, 2012. 

Sir, I, again, humbly urge the hon. Members, with particular reference to Hon. Muntanga, …

Laughter

Mr Chikwanda: … to support the Bill.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Member: Point of order.

Question put and agreed to.

ZAMBIA DEVELOPMENT AGENCY

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move that it is expedient to amend the Zambia Development Agency Act so as to:

(a)provide for the withdrawal of tax incentives to an investor who fails or neglects to fulfil a pledge for employment creation and training for citizens of Zambia; and

(b)provide for matters connected with, or incidental to, the foregoing, and that a Bill to give effect to this be introduced accordingly.

Sir, the purpose of the Motion is to enable me to introduce legislation to amend the Zambia Development Agency Act so as to introduce the changes that I announced in my Budget Speech on 12th October, 2012. 

Question put and agreed to.

__________

HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]
Resolution reported.

Report adopted.

Question put and agreed to and Mr Speaker appointed the Minister of Finance to be a committee of one to bring in the necessary Bills to give effect to the resolutions of the Committee of Ways and Means.

_______

BILLS

FIRST READING

The following Bills were read the first time:

The Customs and Excise (Amendment) Bill, No.9 of 2012

The Income Tax (Amendment) Bill, No.10 of 2012

The Medical Levy Repeal Bill, No.11 of 2012

The Mines and Minerals Development (Amendment) Bill, No.12 of 2012

The Property Transfer (Amendment) Bill, No.13 of 2012

The Value Added Tax (Amendment) Bill, No. 14 of 2012

The Zambia Development Agency (Amendment) Bill, No.15 of 2012

________

COMMITTEE OF  

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the 
Chair]

Vote 15/22 – Ministry of Home Affairs – Eastern Province – Passport and Citizenship – K239,753,398).
(Consideration resumed)

The Chairperson: When business was adjourned yesterday, Tuesday, 13th November, 2012, the Committee of Supply on the Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure for the Year 1st January, 2013 to 31st December, 2013 presented to the National Assembly in October, 2012, was considering Vote 15/22 – Ministry of Home Affairs – Eastern Province – Passport and Citizenship – K239,753,398, and the hon. Minister of Finance sought the indulgence of the House to defer consideration of this Head to today to enable him make clarifications. 

The hon. Minister of Finance may proceed. 

Mr Muntanga interjected. 

The Minister of Finance (Mr Chikwanda): Aah! Chairman Muntanga …

Laughter

Mr Chikwanda:  …uyanda kukandavia behinyina?

Laughter 

The Chairperson: Order!

You are out of order!

Mr Chikwanda:  Sir, he likes to beat up his brothers. 

Mr Chairperson, I wish to thank the hon. Members of Parliament for their indulgence to allow me to respond to the concerns which were raised on the allocations to Staff Welfare and Access to Staff Loans by civil servants when the House was considering the proposed budget for the Ministry of Home Affairs yesterday, Tuesday, 13th November, 2012. Please, accept our sincere apologies for the misunderstanding caused by the apparent lack of clarity. 

Mr Chairperson, I wish to inform the House that Staff Welfare is a standardised activity in the Yellow Book. Ministries, provinces and spending agencies have the option to use this standardised activity when budgeting for staff loans, settling-in allowances, welfare and recreation, purchase of newspapers and office refreshments and so on and so forth. 

Mr Chairperson, ministries, provinces and spending agencies have commonly used it as the preferred activity to budget for loans which are accessed by civil servants. In the case of the Department of Passports and Citizenship in the Eastern Province, K33.6 million was budgeted for welfare and recreation. 

Sir, I should emphasise that in the allocation to Staff Welfare for the fiscal year 2013, no ministry has budgeted for loans under their respective Votes, as this has been centrally budgeted for under Head 21 – Loans and Investments. The release of these funds to the Credit Union will be conditional on the progress with regard to establishing it. I will provide more details on the Credit Union when delivering my policy statement for Vote 21.

Mr Chairperson, in order to assuage the very legitimate concerns of Members of Parliament, let me assure the House that civil servants will, as per normal practice, continue accessing loans through the established revolving funds which are operated under each ministry until the proposed Credit Union is fully operational. The revolving funds in which civil servants repay back loans acquired in the past constitute appropriations which were already approved by this House in previous budgets.

Once again, Sir, I wish to thank hon. Members of Parliament for their indulgence to allow me to clarify the matter.

Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Chairperson, the Eastern Province has provided for items that the hon. Minister has mentioned such as tea, newspapers and funerals. However, the other provincial headquarters have not provided for such items. What will happen when there is a funeral for a civil servant in provinces were facilities for such unfortunate occurrences are not provided for? Is the hon. Minister saying that other provinces will not need such facilities? We need that clarification.

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, contingencies for funerals and other things will surely be catered for in other budget lines. Ministries, provinces and spending agencies have this option. The only way such expenditure can be catered for from similar allocations is if you allowed the Ministry of Finance to be dictating every bit of the detail of how such things should be handled. There is an option. 

Interruptions

Mr Chikwanda: I do not know why this should cause a problem because, as we proceed, you will notice that in certain ministries, there will be budget lines which are not provided for in other ministries. I do not think that there should be any fuss about that. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mbulakulima (Chembe): Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs was very categorical yesterday when he said that the 2013 Budget had nothing for staff welfare because a bank was going to be opened which was going to provide loans for civil servants. Today, you have come back to tell us about Vote 21 – Loans and Investments. Are you telling me that the hon. Minister of Home Affairs misled this House?

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, I think we must act in good faith. I started my statement by making a very profuse and not ambivalent apology for the misunderstanding caused by the lack of clarity regarding what was said. I have tried to clarify things as much as possible without sweeping anything under the carpet. 

The Ministry of Home Affairs is not responsible for an item called Loans and Investments. So, let us wait until we get to Loans and Investment. If Hon. Mbulakulima would like to crucify me, I am going to explain. It is not right to begin explaining the provisions under Loans and Investments, and yet we are dealing with issues to do with the Ministry of Home Affairs. Let us have some orderliness.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Workers’ welfare!

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Chairperson, I want to begin by accepting the hon. Minister’s apology which, I think, …

Mr Kambwili interjected.

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Nkombo: … is timely. I am sure it is in good faith. This is an activity-based Budget.

Mr Mwiimbu: Yes!

Mr Nkombo: I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether, in his view, amendments cannot be brought in order to regularise this irregularity …

Mr Kambwili: Yah!

Mr Nkombo: Hon. Kambwili, mulamu, …

Mr Kambwili: I am not talking to you.

Mr Nkombo: Then run the country.

Mr Kambwili: Aha!

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Muntanga: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: On whom because he has just started.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Thank you, Mr Chairperson, …

Mr Muntanga: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, I seek your serious ruling on this point of order. Yesterday, on Muvi Television, there was a clip which showed the visit of the hon. Acting Minister of Labour and Social Security to Game Stores. The Acting Minister of Labour and Social Security approached the human resource officer and threatened to sack him for not giving him information.

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Muntanga: Even when the young man pleaded that he could not respond to the many questions which were being asked, the Acting Minister of Labour and Social Security, Hon. Kambwili with the Deputy Minister, Hon. Chitotela, used very unpalatable words bordering on tribal lines. I want to tell you that the young man is my cousin.

Interruptions

Mr Muntanga: Are the hon. Ministers given powers to threaten people in private …

Interruptions

Mr Muntanga: It was a clip on television. 

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Muntanga: Have they got powers to threaten anybody and to talk about firing people anyhow?

The Chairperson: Order!

I think it is only fair for me to say that it is not the responsibility of the National Assembly of Zambia to delve into the operations of the Executive. I think that we have to draw a line. An hon. Minister’s executive powers are not related to what we are discussing here.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: Discussing such issues is not in order. We will leave the handling of such issues to the Executive because they do not relate to what we are discussing here.

You may continue, Mr Mwiimbu.

Mr Mwiimbu: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Before I was interrupted by that point of order, I was saying that we are discussing a very serious matter related to the Budget of the nation. You will recall that in all the Votes which we have passed, the Vote regarding the welfare of workers has been blank and the explanation, not just from the hon. Minister of Home Affairs, but also from the Vice-President and other ministers is that the Vote does not have an allocation because a bank is going to be formed which will be providing loans to civil servants. Now, under the Eastern Province, staff welfare has been given an allocation. The hon. Minister of Finance has made an apology to this House and to the nation for the lack of clarity regarding what was said about staff welfare issues on the Floor of this House.

Hon. Nkombo has raised very pertinent issues and advised the hon. Minister of Finance and Government that it would be prudent for the Government to make an amendment such that this particular Vote for staff welfare for the Eastern Province, or wherever it is appearing, should be deleted so that there is uniformity in the Budget.

Sir, we cannot have an allocation for one particular ministry with an explanation that is contradicting other allocations in the Budget. Even the explanation that has been made by the hon. Minister of Finance that the workers will be getting money from Loans and Investments is not correct. Loans and Investment has its own purpose. It has nothing to do with the welfare of workers. Things can only be alright if the hon. Minister said that this anomaly that has happened will be sorted out using the Contingency Vote and not Loans and Investment. I would like to appeal to him to be magnanimous and request that he makes an amendment. Once he does that, then we will be able to move.

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, there are two things here. We do not need to spill blood. Nothing stops Parliament from making amendments to any allocation in the Budget. The other time, Hon. Mwiimbu guided me very well about the second matter he referred to but, now, it is my turn to guide him.

Sir, there is an allocation under Loans and Investments which the Government intends to use to support the civil servants using the bank. The allocation for the bank has been put under Loans and Investment because we may not give it as a grant. It is possible that we will pass it on as a loan at a certain nominal interest. This is the normal practice. There is a lot of money which has been put under the wings of Loans and Investment which is to be spent by various ministries.

The Chairperson: I think that, at this point, I am duty bound to really explain the point that the hon. Minister has raised. The main issue was an appeal by Hon. Mwiimbu to the hon. Minister of Finance to consider amending that part of the Vote for the Eastern Province. If I heard the hon. Minister correctly, he said there was nothing impossible in that regard. My understanding is that consideration will be given to amending that particular part of the Vote concerning the Eastern Province. If that is my understanding, which is subject to correction, it is my wish that we now move on to another Vote.

Question put and agreed to. Leave granted.

The debate on Vote 15/22 by leave, accordingly deferred.

Vote 15/23 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 15/24 – (Ministry of Home Affairs – North Western Province – Passport and Citizenship – K206,214,696).

Dr Kazonga (Vubwi): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4001 …
Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, I would like to seek your guidance on how we are going to proceed. Considering that there is a Vote, which is going to be amended, what will happen when we want to approve the final budget for the Ministry of Home Affairs? Are we going to defer the approval of the budget until an amendment is made? We are now in an awkward situation because, if that particular Vote is not amended now, it will be part of the budget for the ministry. What will happen when we get to the Head total? So, I was thinking that we defer determining the whole budget and then move to the next Vote so that the hon. Minister of Finance can make an amendment and then, once the amendment is made, we can come back to the budget for the Ministry of Home Affairs.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: Can the hon. Minister of Finance address that concern, if it is possible. Please, let us be assisted. Hon. Mwiimbu is saying, in light of what you had said, would it not be prudent that we hold on until the issue of the Eastern Province is looked at before we can continue. What would be your guidance?

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, my guidance has been very clear that amendments can be made, especially when they are submitted in good faith and for very good reasons. Like Hon. Mwiimbu is saying, for reasons of orderliness. There is no objection.

The Chairperson: In light of the hon. Minister of Finance’s view in response to what Hon. Mwiimbu has said, I will defer consideration of that allocation to a later date. Now, we will then move on to the individual items for the Drug Enforcement Commission.

The deferment affects an allocation to the Ministry of Home Affairs. Vote 16/01 is for the Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC). We discussed allocations to three institutions. Already, one Head was passed yesterday under Ministry of Home Affairs. The deferment of the consideration of a specific allocation does not mean that we are deferring the Head which we passed yesterday. So, Vote 16/01 …

Mr Kambwili: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, when you are deferring a Vote, you need to put a question on the Floor of the House so as to determine how many hon. Members are in support of that action.

The Chairperson: That is a good observation. However, as presiding officer, sometimes, I have to use my own discretionary power because, if I put this thing to a vote, in light of what the hon. Minister of Finance has said, what will happen if the suggestion by the hon. Minister of Finance is defeated? We will plunge the whole process into chaos. So, I have decided that in light of what he has said, we will defer consideration of that Vote. It is in the interest of all us that we do that.

VOTE 16/01 – (Drug Enforcement Commission – Drug Enforcement Commission – Headquarters – K38,637,832,595).

Mr Mulusa (Solwezi Central): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4002, …

The Chairperson: What Programme are you on?

Mr Mulusa: Mr Chairperson, are we not considering the allocation to the Drug Enforcement Commission?

The Chairperson: Yes. What page?

Mr Mulusa: Sir, page 309.

The Chairperson: There is nothing like 309. We cannot go that far, we are on Vote 16/01. 

Mr Mulusa: Mr Chairperson, my apologies. I was way ahead of you.

Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4012, Activity 212 – Departmental Housing Projects – Nil. In 2012, there was a provision of K500,000,000, but there is no allocation for next year. May I know the reason there is no allocation for next year.

The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Chilangwa): Mr Chairperson, the allocation for that activity has been relocated to Programme 4012, Activity 041 – Construction of Office Blocks – K500, 000, 000.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 16/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 16/02 – (Drug Enforcement Commission – Lusaka Province – K434, 378, 210).

Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on page 294, Programme 4002, Activity 010 – International Women’s Day Celebrations – Nil. There is no provision for next year for that particular activity. Why is that so?

Mr Chilangwa: Mr Chairperson, Programme 4002, Activity 010 – International Women’s Day Celebrations – Nil, the activity will be taken care of by the Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC) Headquarters.

I thank you, Sir. 

Vote 16/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 16/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 16/04 – (Drug Enforcement Commission – Western Province – K235, 071, 350).

Mr Mulomba (Magoye): Mr Chairperson, I seek an explanation on Programme 4001, Activity 004 – Staff Welfare – Nil. In this year’s Budget, we allocated K20, 485, 280 for this activity, but there is nothing for next year. What is the reason for this?

The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Kampyongo): Mr Chairperson, Programme 4001, Activity 004 – Staff Welfare – Nil, this matter has been exhaustively addressed by the hon. Minister of Finance. However, for the sake of the hon. Member’s information, this activity will be taken care of by the Ministry of Finance through the Loan Credit Union Bank.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Simbao (Senga Hill): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4001, Activity 004 – Staff Welfare– Nil. Have the people of the Western Province not been given funding for this activity as a punishment because they are advocating for the Barotseland Agreement?

Laughter

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, with your indulgence, this matter has been dealt with and, I think that, for the sake of progress, it is important that we understand what has already been explained over this matter.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Namulambe (Mpongwe): Mr Chairperson, I need clarification on page 297, Programme 4008, Activity 012 – HIV and AIDS Programmes – K2, 459, 786. I know that this allocation is going to be spread across twelve months. How adequate are these funds in dealing with the HIV/AIDS programmes for the whole of this period?

Mr Chilangwa: Mr Chairperson, if we look at the allocation for this activity for the current year, we will notice that it is the same as the amount for next year. That means that we were able to cater for this activity within the same budget limit. Therefore, this allocation will be enough.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 16/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the 
Chair]

VOTE 16/05 – (Drug Enforcement Commission – Eastern Province – K235,071,350).

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 4031, Activity 006 – Officers’ Accommodation – K50, 308, 317 and Activity 013 – Joint Cross-Border Operations (JPOC) – K20, 605, 976. I have noticed that, even when we were looking at the votes for other provinces, the figure for officers’ accommodation is being reduced from K75 million to K50 million. I do not know whether this money is for officers’ rentals and the rentals have reduced, hence the decrease in the allocation. As for the later activity, there is a uniform increase under various provinces, and yet borders differ in size. Why are these figures uniform for almost every province?

The Deputy Minister of Justice (Mrs Mwamba): Mr Chairperson, the K50, 308, 317 is required to pay rentals for officers in PSS during 2013. The reduction by K24, 811, 897 is because some officers are receiving housing allowance. 

On JPOCs, Mr Chairperson, the K20, 605, 876 is needed for conducting operations. The increase of K15 million is due to the increased number of meetings and the rise in the price of goods and services. These are activity-based budgets. So, the figures given are according to what was demanded.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank the hon. Minister for reminding us that this is an activity-based Budget.  May I have clarification on Programme 4002, Activity 055 – Secretary’s Day – K1, 000, 000. This amount is for the province which, according to my simple arithmetic, is K140, 000 per district. Since she said this is an activity-based budget, what sort of items will be bought from K140, 000 on Secretary’s Day?

Mrs Mwamba: Mr Chairperson, this amount will not be provided to every district because the activity is just for one district.

Thank you, Sir.

Ms Siliya (Petauke): Mr Chairperson, the Western and Northern provinces, whose budgets have already been approved, have the same K1,000,000 for Secretary’s Day. Was the demand exactly the same, in terms of costing, in all the provinces for this activity?

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! 

Please, allow the hon. Minister to answer. Only one hon. Minister has to answer.

Mr Chilangwa: Mr Chairperson, the establishment of DEC in the provinces provides for secretaries to be at the provincial headquarters only.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mtolo (Chipata Central): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4020, Activity 006 – Community Awareness Sensitisation and Rehabilitation of Drug Addicts – K5,990,561.  Will the amount suffice such an important activity as sensitisation against drugs and rehabilitation of addicts?

Mrs Mwamba: Mr Chairperson, the materials for this exercise are printed at the headquarters.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, the hon. Deputy Minister has informed this House that secretaries are only found at the provincial centres. I am aware that Mazabuka, Lundazi and Petauke DEC offices have secretaries. Is this money that has been provided only for secretaries working at the provincial office?

Mr Chilangwa: Sir, the establishment is as I said in my earlier answer.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mutati (Lunte): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4002, Activity 010 – International Women’s Day Celebrations – K3, 329, 586.  In answer to an earlier question on Lusaka Province, where there was no provision, the hon. Deputy Minister said that this is being provided for under the headquarters. Is there a variation in this provision?

Mr Kampyongo: Sir, the hon. Member is talking about Lusaka Province and the headquarters of DEC are actually in Lusaka.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4031, Activity 006 – Officer’s Accommodation – K50, 308, 317. This year, there is a provision of K75, 120,214. Does this money cut across all the provinces apart from Lusaka and the Copperbelt? What is the reason for standardising this particular cost, and yet the charges differ from one area to another?

Mrs Mwamba: Sir, when budgeting for this line, the rentals in all the provinces were taken into account. So, the figure given is according to what we had on the ground.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Simbao: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4031 – Internal and External Operations – K70,914,293. In 2012, the total provision is K80,175,197. 

Mr Namulambe: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, I am sorry to disturb my elder brother, Hon. Simbao. We are very explicit in seeking clarifications. Are the hon. Deputy Ministers of Home Affairs in order to be evading very straightforward questions? The idea of evading questions is not solving problems. We are asking so many questions because of the unclear answers that we are getting from the hon. Deputy Ministers. Are they in order to continue evading the questions, for example, on accommodation? 

I need your serious ruling, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: The serious ruling is that, since you have not specified the nature of the evasion and the item to which the evasion relates, you are out of order.

The hon. Member for Senga Hill may continue.

Mr Simbao: Sir, there is a reduction in the allocation to internal and external operations in the programme total. Why is there a reduction in the allocation for this very important activity?

Mr Chilangwa: Mr Chairperson, there is a need to look at the components which are Activity 006 – Officers’ Accommodation – K50,308,317 and Activity 013 – Joint Cross-Border Operations – K20,605,976. We gave specific reasons for each provision. That is where it is all coming from.

Thank you, Sir.

Vote 16/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 16/06 – (Drug Enforcement Commission – Luapula Province – K235,071,350).

Mr Mufalali (Senanga): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4031, Activity 006 – Officer’s Accommodation – K50,308,317. We have been told that this is going to benefit the headquarters only. Who are the beneficiaries of this amount?

Mr Chilangwa: Mr Chairperson, the provision is required to pay rentals for officers in PSS during the year 2013.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4001, Activity 004 – Staff Welfare – Nil. As you know, I will be heading to Luapula very soon. This year’s budget of K20,485,280 was very helpful to the people of Luapula. Since this is an activity-based Budget, and it becomes operational on 1st January, 2013, may I know when this bank will become operational so that I can assure the people about this?

Laughter

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, just in case the hon. Member has just joined the House, the hon. Minister of Finance clarified the matter and, therefore, the assurance that the hon. Member can go and give to his people is that, in the meantime, the revolving fund at the Ministry of Finance will still be accessible to workers.

Thank you, Sir.

Ms Siliya: Mr Chairperson, we were reminded that this is an activity-based Budget. However, the budgets for Eastern and Luapula provinces are exactly the same. I am really beginning to question whether any budgeting was actually done or whether it is a ‘cut-and-paste’ job because the figures are almost the same. I find it difficult to believe that when the DEC in Luapula and Eastern provinces were asked to submit towards this activity-based Budget, their needs were exactly the same, resulting in exactly the same figures. Can the hon. Minister, please, explain this.

Mr Chilangwa: Mr Chairperson, the programmes are similar in the two provinces. 

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, I want to bring the attention of the hon. Minister to …

Ms Siliya: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Hon. Government Member interjected.

Ms Siliya: Mr Chairperson, I will ignore the comment from the hon. Minister. We appreciate the programmes are similar. However, is it in order for the hon. Minister not to clarify his answers, knowing that these programmes may be similar, but the expanse of the programmes and the amount of work required could actually differ? This is why we question how the work of the DEC in each province in this country can be exactly the same. Therefore, is the hon. Minister in order not to take our question seriously and give us an appropriate answer apart from just telling us that the programmes are the same?

I need your ruling, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: The ruling is that if you are not satisfied with an answer, raise an appropriate question to solicit an appropriate answer.

Hon. Nkombo may continue.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4002, Activity 022 – Traditional Ceremonies – K2,000,000.  I have observed, with sadness –  as a matter of fact, the lamentation of the hon. Member for Petauke in the point of order she made is the basis for asking this question – that, under traditional ceremonies, the Northern, Western and Eastern provinces that we have so far dispensed with and now Luapula Province, have figures that are exactly the same. The hon. Minister has indicated to us that this is an activity-based Budget as submitted from the provinces. Are these provincial officials communicating telepathically to come up with the exact figure or someone has actually manipulated these figures without consideration of the number of traditional ceremonies that occur in each province because they vary?

Mrs Mwamba: Mr Chairperson, the Government has shared equitably the money that is provided among the provinces.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Question! 

Laughter

Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4002 – Events – K24,976,191. I notice that the Public Service Day is not one of the events captured, and yet the DEC is part of the Public Service. May I know why this particular activity is missing from that budget line.

Mr Chilangwa: Mr Chairperson, it has been captured at the headquarters.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, I want to know what the hon. Minister understands by equity because the provinces differ in size. If you are going to give the same amount, for example, to the Copperbelt and Luapula provinces, what is this equity we are talking about when we give the same amount even when demand is higher is some places than others? 

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Minister, what is this equity?

Mrs Mwamba: Mr Chairperson, we are saying that we have tried to share the available funds among all the provinces equally and equitably.

Vote 16/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

VOTE 16/07 – (Drug Enforcement Commission – North-Western Province – K235,071,350).

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, Programme 4035, Activity 005 – Transport Management – K29,089,236. I served in the North-Western and Copperbelt provinces as Permanent Secretary before. The distances between towns in the North-Western Province are far apart compared to the Copperbelt Province. Why did you give the same amount of money to the Copperbelt Province which has shorter distances than the North-Western Province and let the people of North-Western Province suffer because they have been given the same amount as the Copperbelt Province?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, Programme 4035, Activity 005 – Transport Management – K29,089,236. This provision is specifically for the maintenance of vehicles during 2013. The issue of the differences in distances between the two provinces does not arise. This is for the maintenance of vehicles and it depends on the number of vehicles that are available.

Mr Lufuma (Kabompo West): Mr Chairperson, Programme 4008, Activity 012 – HIV and AIDS Programmes – K2,459,786. This amount is the same as the one that is in the Head we discussed previously. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what type of budgeting we are following. In one breath, she said that it is activity-based budgeting based on demands. Demands should be different. In another breath, she said budgeting is done by equal distribution of the resources that are available. Can the hon. Minister tell us the exact type of budgeting this Government is following.

Mr Chilangwa: Mr Chairperson, Programme 4008, Activity 012 – HIV and AIDS Programmes – K2,459,786. Our Budget is activity based. According to the establishment in the North-Western Province, you will find that this will adequately cater for this programme which includes awareness campaigns and messages.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Belemu (Mbabala): Mr Chairperson, Programme 4031, Activity 006 – Officer’s Accommodation – K50,308,317. Earlier, we were told that this amount is meant to pay for accommodation for certain categories of staff. May I know why paying for accommodation for certain categories of staff is considered as an operation.

Mr Chilangwa: Mr Chairperson, Programme 4031, Activity 006 – Officer’s Accommodation – K50,308,317. Can the hon. Member repeat the exact number …

Mr Belemu (Mbabala): Mr Chairperson, Programme 4031, Activity 006 – Officer’s Accommodation – K50,308,317. Earlier, we were told that this amount is meant to pay for accommodation for members of staff of a certain category. May I know why this is considered as an operation.

Mr Chilangwa: Mr Chairperson, Programme 4031, Activity 006 – Officer’s Accommodation – K50,308,317. The reason for this is that officers who are in the PSS are supposed to be secure. 

Professor Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Mr Chairperson, can the hon. Minister come out clearly on the budgeting process. Is this an activity-based budgeting process or an equity-budgeting process? Can he be very clear on this.

Mr Chilangwa: Mr Chairperson, it is an activity-based process.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, following Hon. Professor Geoffrey Lungwangwa’s question, I am prompted to bring to the attention of the hon. Minister, Programme 4002, Activity 012 – Labour Day Celebration – K4,120,605. I have noted that from Lusaka Province to the North-Western Province, the allocation is K4,120,605. Since it is an activity-based Budget, can he confirm to me that the establishment in Lusaka, where there are more officers in the DEC, is the same as the establishment of the DEC in the North-Western Province.

Mr Chilangwa: Mr Chairperson, Programme 4002, Activity 012 – Labour Day Celebration – K4,120,605. Obviously, the establishment is not the same, but the number of people going to participate in this event is the same.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairperson, Programme 4013, Activity 022 – Investigations – North-Western Province – K16,635,134. I have noticed that there is an allocation of K15,000,121 this year and, next year, K16,635,134 has been allocated. My observation is that this amount is the same as the one for DEC operations from Solwezi to Chavuma; from Vubwi to Lundazi in the Eastern Province, and from Mansa to Chienge. Why should the amount be the same for all these places if the Budget is activity based? The areas I have talked about are different.

The Minister of Home Affairs (Mr E. C. Lungu): Mr Chairperson, Programme 4013, Activity 022 – Investigations – North-Western Province – K16,635,134. I must emphasise that we are dealing with an activity-based Budget. When we receive submissions, we look at the envelope of resources and then we decide which is the most optimum, or the least we can give. This is what we thought could be available. 

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Government Member: Ulefwaya baletola impiya ishishiliko.

Vote 16/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 16/08 – (Drug Enforcement Commission – Southern Province – K266,921,350).

Mr L. J. Ngoma (Sinda): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4002, Activity – Special Events 031 – K2,000,000. There is no allocation for special events for some provinces like Lusaka and Muchinga. Why is it that …

Professor Lungwangwa: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Hon. Opposition Member interjected.

Laughter 

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Chairperson, I apologise for disturbing the flow of thought for my hon. Colleagues. Is the hon. Minister in order to be taking a long time to provide answers to very serious and pertinent policy related issues underpinning the Budget?

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

In so far as he takes long to answer questions in order to provide appropriate answers, he is in order.

Continue, please, hon. Member.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Professor, you are a former professor!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Once a professor, always a professor. 
 
Continue, please, hon. Member.

Mr L. J. Ngoma: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 4002, Special Events appear under Activity 031 for the Vote for Southern Province only and not any other province. What are these Special Events?

Mrs Mwamba: Mr Chairperson, the allocation for Special Events allocation is for the United Nation World Tourism Event that is going to take place in the Southern Province. This is a new activity.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4001, Activity 009 – Utilities – K38,489,607. Is this amount providing for the dismantling of arrears and also the provision for whatever will be incurred next year? I am asking this question because the other budgets have a specific line for dismantling arrears and a provision for that particular year.

Mr Chilangwa: Mr Chairperson, this provision is required to pay for electricity, telephone, water and sanitation arrears.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 16/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 16/09 – (Drug Enforcement Commission – Central Province – K214,465,374).

Mr Mulomba: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4031, Activity 013 –JPOC – Nil. This year, there is K5,054,983, but there is nothing for next year. May I know the reason for this.

Mr Chilangwa: Mr Chairperson, Programme 4031, Activity 013 –JPOC – Nil, this allocation has been moved to another department because the province will not have any border meetings next year.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 16/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 16/10 – (Drug Enforcement Commission – Copperbelt Province – K460,142,698).

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4031, Activity 006 – Officers Accommodation – K161,898,779. All the Votes preceding this Vote have experienced a reduction in the allocation to that activity of about K25 million. However, for the Copperbelt, there is an increase in the allocation to that activity. How do you relate that to your principle of equity and equality?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, Programme 4031, Activity 006 – Officers Accommodation – K161,898,779, we must note that the Copperbelt Province has a lot of activities. There has been an increase in the number of officers in the category of Permanent Secretaries. 

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, since there is an increase in the number of officers being taken care of under Programme 4031, may I have clarification on Programme 4002, Activity 055 – Secretary’s Day – K1,000,000. There is only one secretary, again, who has been provided for under that allocation, and yet it is a big province. May I know why.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, we are talking about officers who will be carrying out operations. The secretary who is there is able to do all the secretarial work.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sianga (Sesheke): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4002, Activity 022 – Traditional Ceremonies – K3,000,000.  If you believe in ‘equilibrity’ or whatever …

Laughter 

Mr Sianga: …, sorry equity, why have you given the Copperbelt Province that amount?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, I think my colleague is confused. I do not know whether he was talking about equity or not. All I can say is that when budgeting, the structure of the province is considered.

I thank you, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Just for clarification, the hon. Member is not confused. It was mother tongue interference.

Laughter 

Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4031, Activity 013 –JPOC – K20,605,976. This year, there was an allocation of K10,109,699 and, next year, it doubles to K20,605,976. May I know what has caused that increase of that particular provision.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, Programme 4031, Activity 013 –JPOC – K20,605,976, the increase is due to the increased number of meetings we shall have with our neighboring country, the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC). As you have seen, there are a number of issues that we have to deal with in terms of border points on the Copperbelt.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4002, Activity 022 – Traditional Ceremonies – K3,000,000 and Activity 034 – Independence Day Celebrations – K3,000,000. Why is it that the Copperbelt seems to be getting more than other provinces?

Hon. Government Member: It is bigger.

Mr Mufalali: No.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! 

Mr Chilangwa: Mr Chairperson, Programme 4002, Activity 022 – Traditional Ceremonies – K3,000,000 and Activity 034 – Independence Day Celebrations – K3,000,000, these amounts are higher than those for others because of the bigger establishment on the Copperbelt. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Belemu: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4002, Activity 022 – Traditional Ceremonies – K3,000,000. The hon. Minister had stated that the reason for giving K3,000,000 was the size of the establishment on the Copperbelt. May I know why the ministry thinks that it is prudent to budget for traditional ceremonies based on the size of the establishment as opposed to the activity that is to be done which is the traditional ceremony?

Mr Chilangwa: Mr Chairperson, if we have ten members of staff in a given province, only two might travel to a ceremony. However, if the structure has twenty people, then three or four people may travel to a ceremony.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4002, Activity 022 – Traditional Ceremonies – K3,000,000. The hon. Minister indicated, less than ten minutes ago, that an equal number of staff participate in these activities when I stood up to ask about the traditional ceremonies in Luapula. Can he explain why he keeps changing positions?

Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Chairperson, I think my colleague gave an answer regarding Labour Day celebrations. However, let me take advantage of this question by Hon. Nkombo to explain that we take into account the structure of our labour force and past experiences in our activity-based budgeting. Some ceremonies are made up of various activities. Thus, we take all sorts of considerations to arrive at how much we should apportion.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 16/10 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 16/11 – (Drug Enforcement Commission – Muchinga Province – K235,071,350).

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4031, Activity 013 –JPOC – K20,605,976. The hon. Minister mentioned that the Copperbelt was given almost K21 million because it had a bigger establishment and also because of the upcoming meetings with the DRC. Why is it that the Copperbelt has given almost the same amount with Muchinga Province for a similar activity?

Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Chairperson, Nakonde Border, by its very nature of operations, calls for a lot of activities. That is the reason we gave it a good allocation.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4052, Activity 006 – Procurement of Office Equipment and Furniture – K13,136,858. Muchinga Province is a new province. I have noticed that apart from the Copperbelt Province, all the old provinces have the same figure. Why is it that Muchinga, which is a new province, is still given the same amount, and yet the offices there do not have anything?

Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Chairperson, we would have loved to give Muchinga more money, but that is the basic minimum we could afford to give it.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4031, Activity 013 –JPOC – K20,605,976. The hon. Minister of Home Affairs indicated that Nakonde is a very busy exit and entry point, hence the reason it has been given K20,605,976.

Sir, in the spirit of equity, which they have been preaching all afternoon, why has the Southern Province, which has four border points, namely Chirundu Border, Siavonga Border, Livingstone Border … 

Hon. Muntanga: Kazungula.

Mr Nkombo: … and Kazungula not been given a good allocation for joint cross-border operations? Can the hon. Minister justify what he means when he says there is more activity at Nakonde than all the four borders in the Southern Province put together.

Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Chairperson, to start with, Chirundu and Siavonga are under Lusaka Province. 

Hon. Opposition Member: Question!

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Chairperson, coming to the question, Nakonde is more active in drug trafficking than any other border post. We have drawn our findings from past experiences. That is the basis upon which we allocated more money to Nakonde Border.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4013, Activity 064 – Investigations and Intelligence – K16, 635,134. I have noticed that K16, 635,134 is common to other provinces. Are these investigations the same throughout the provinces?

Mr E. Lungu: Mr Chairperson, I belaboured the point that they are not the same. This is the minimum that we could apportion to the provinces given the small resource envelope.

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 4013, Activity 064 – Investigations and Intelligence – K16,635,134. I can see that this same amount of money has been allocated to the Southern Province and Muchinga Province, and yet there is too much ganja grown in the valley in the Southern Province. Why not give the Southern Province more money than Muchinga Province? 

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

We are now debating Muchinga Province, and not the Southern Province.

Vote 16/11 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 12 – (Commission for Investigations – Office of the President – Headquarters – K6, 317, 838, 896).

The Vice-President (Dr Scott): Mr Chairperson, the Commission for Investigations is an organ of the State established by the Constitution of Zambia, Chapter 39 of the Laws of Zambia. The commission became operational in 1974 under an Act of Parliament. It is, in the more common world parlance, the Ombudsman Office, and it investigates, basically, cases of abuse of authority against people, failure of the State to pay them terminal benefits and other cases.

Mr Chairperson, the performance of the commission, as hon. Members of this House know, is measured by the number of cases that it receives and resolves.

Mr Chairperson, I am pleased to report that, last year, 2011, this House approved a budget of K5,026,101,235 for the commission’s general operations. I wish to present K6,601,636,498 as the estimates for 2013. These funds are needed to support the portfolio functions of the commission in our continued efforts to redress abuse of authority of office in public institutions. 

Sir, the commission’s key development programmes for 2013 are as follows:

(a)Decentralising operations. The previous Administration approved the restructuring of the commission, which included, among other issues, decentralising the commission’s operations to three provincial centres, to begin with, Ndola, Lusaka and Choma. The implementation of the restructuring will commence in 2013 with the opening of the three provincial centres. This project will entail, amongst other activities, acquisition of office space and procurement of office furniture, office equipment and vehicles;
 
(b)Strengthening the legal framework so as to make the operations of the commission more effective and efficient. The process of reviewing the Act under which the commission was established has begun, with the members of the commission and its staff submitting comprehensive recommendations to the Technical Committee on Drafting the Constitution, chaired by Hon. Justice Arnold Silungwe. The process of reviewing the Act will continue through 2013 until all the necessary amendments are made;

(c)Strengthening the human and institutional capacity of the commission. The commission is currently handicapped by inadequate human resource. For this reason, the restructuring of the commission in 2013 will entail the recruitment of new staff, who will require training so as to orient them to the operations of the commission;
 
(d)Conducting, at least, one tour per province to all the ten provinces next year;

(e)Continuing with publicity campaign programmes, through electronic and print media, to sensitise the general public on the operations of the commission;

(f)Continuing with the development and maintenance of an electronic database, which began in 2004; and

(g)Continuing with the development and maintenance of a website so as to publicise the operations of the commission locally and internationally. I may just add, here, that, when we were going through this with the members of the commission, it suddenly occurred to me that many of the things that come to my Constituency Office are exactly the things which this commission was originally set up to address in the great heyday of Ombudsman forty years ago. It seems, to me, that one way of publicising this commission is by involving it in more activities of hon. Members of Parliament, as some of the cases are of interest to both.
Mr Chairperson, in conclusion, it is hoped that the measures mentioned above will considerably contribute to the Government’s Poverty Reduction Programme (PRP). I, therefore, beg that the House approves the estimates as presented.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, firstly, I want to state that the Office of the Commissioner for Investigations is very important and must be supported. However, the decisions that are made by the commission, following complaints received from members of the public, are usually not respected. I think that this is why the Government is trying to work on the legal framework for the operations of this institution. So many people go to this institution to raise their complaints but, because some people feel that they are more important than the commission, they disregard its decisions. Therefore, there is a need to empower the commission to take Government officers who fail to obey its decisions to court.  

Mr Chairperson, the functions of the commission may only be known to a few elites. So, I would like to support the idea of trying to sensitise the community on the existence of this institution, which will help them resolve some of the problems that they encounter, especially the disputes related to the payment of terminal benefits, which are common in local authorities, and the computation of the long service bonus. It will also help chief retainers, because I have noted that, in the past, the chief retainers have had nowhere to lodge their complaints, apart from the provincial administration. However, when dissatisfied with the response, they cannot take their cases anywhere else. If they knew about the operations of the commission, maybe, they might have where to take their complaints. 

Sir, what is cardinal is that the decisions made by this institution are not respected. As you reveal the Act, it is important that the commission is given more teeth to bite those who do not respect its decisions. Otherwise, we will continue funding it, which will just be a sheer waste of Government resources. We want people to appreciate the existence of this commission by seeing results.

Mr Chairperson, further, when the commissioners are investigating some cases, the polite manner in which they summon people to appear before them makes some people to find it illogical to travel to Lusaka and appear before them. I think, they should be more firm in the way they deal with issues. Otherwise, if this office is not respected and its orders adhered to by the people it summons, its existence will be irrelevant to the country.

Sir, I would also like to see this office take its services everywhere. We are talking about decentralising the services to three centres, but it will be very difficult, for instance, for someone in Chavuma to travel from there and lodge in a complaint on the Copperbelt Province because, sometimes, the amount of money that they are claiming could be less than the travelling expenses they would incur. Therefore, I would be glad to see the commission represented in all the districts and powers vested in some officers to help people who may have difficulties travelling from far places.

Mr Chairperson, in the event that the decentralisation of offices to all the districts is impossible, the best the commission can do is come up with a programme to tour all the districts after informing the people of the tour dates so that the people can go and lodge in their complaints. So, there is a need to increase the commission’s budget if it is to be travelling around the country. With these few words, I wish to support this Vote.

I thank you, Sir

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, many people do not know about the Commission for Investigations because it does not seem to be active. If at all it was active, which it was intended to be, then we would not have had to create the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) and the Taskforce on Corruption to investigate maladministration. This commission has been there since the First Republic, but it has been toothless. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: It is a commission that, maybe, should be retiring people because it does not carry out any investigations at all. Even, His Honour the Vice-President just found out that it handles cases similar to those being reported to his Constituency Office. He also stated that there was no need to have this commission because it is not able to do its job.

Mr Chairperson, I have noticed that allocating money to various events has become routine. We budget for the International Women’s Day Celebrations, Labour Day Celebrations, Shows and Exhibitions, World AIDS Day, Sixteen Days of Gender Activism, International Trade Fair and the African Public Service Day. For the commission, this will amount to K564,000,000. Even its own initiative to investigate has been budgeted for at K73,500,000. 

Sir, the commission’s core business is to receive and investigate cases of maladministration. However, in Zambia, we tend to complain everyday about the many cases of maladministration that are there, and yet this commission does nothing about it. Why should we give it money if it does not work?

Hon. Opposition Member: Give examples.

Mr Muntanga: Recently, we were told that an hon. Minister’s son was driving a vehicle without a licence.

Hon. Opposition Members: Shame!

Mr Muntanga: When are you going to investigate such cases? Indeed, when one states something that hurts, we know that it pains, but we must tell you not to misuse Government transport and taxpayers’ money.

Hon. Opposition Member: Change number plates.

Mr Muntanga: It is unfortunate to note that people can go and replace number plates of Government vehicles during elections, with numbers like ‘ALE 1922’, and yet the Commissioner of Investigations does nothing about it. I tend to wonder what the commission is investigating.

Sir, the commission will get an extra K1,291,737,661 from last year’s amount, which is one-fifth more than the previous budget, or a 20 per cent increment. What is it going to do? In this very office, people are being harassed and there are cases of maladministration. I can give you several examples of this.

Mr Chairperson, people in this office are locking themselves up in their offices with gadgets hanging round their necks. When you go there, you are not allowed in because the workers select who should go in, and that is a problem. If the MMD was wrong, what are you doing about it because you are supposed to show the difference? When President Sata came to power, we noticed that many things started changing. He ordered many people to be investigated, and this looked as though it was witch-hunting. Why do that when we have a Commission for Investigations. Why should the commission be given more money when it cannot even justify its existence?

The people of Zambia want to be assured that everyone is working. If people in offices worked, service delivery would improve by 50 per cent. The hon. Ministers may be murmuring, but they are the ones who are in trouble with the staff that are there, and not me. The officers are undermining you, and ...

Hon. Opposition Member: Aah!

Mr Muntanga: … yet you come crying here and saying that you are sitting on an MMD volcano. What are you talking about? When you come to this House, you complain that the figures are not correct. Already, you have brought two addendums to this Budget. You brought two corrections which could not add up and now you have brought another one. This is why we now have extra eyes because of your inefficiency. 

Laughter 

Mr Nkombo: Indolence!

Mr Muntanga: Your indolence.  

Mr Nkombo: Indolence, yes. 

Mr Muntanga: What are you doing about the Commissioner for Investigations? 

Mr Nkombo: Laziness!

Mr Muntanga: Perhaps, you should investigate them.

Laughter 

Mr Muntanga: We are having serious problems.

Mr Chairperson, the First Republic created several commissions of investigations such as the Special Investigation Team on Economy and Trade (CITET), Ombudsman and so on and so forth. This is one of the commissions that, if left to me, would be scrapped off so that the K6 billion could be used to build more dip tanks. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: And boreholes!

Mr Muntanga: With this K6 billion, we could sink more boreholes for our people. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, I note that Programme 4107, Investigation of Maladministration in Government and Parastatal Bodies, has only been allocated K858 million, and yet this is the only tangible activity in this commission. The rest of the programmes indicate subscriptions, utilities, outstanding bills and so on and so forth. Fortunately, there is no staff welfare. 

Laughter 

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, my point is that if this commission does not prove itself worthy, I will question why we give it money. It should justify itself. People call us names for approving funding, so show us that you are working. 

The problem with this commission is that it has not decentralised. The commission has been in Lusaka alone for the past forty-eight years. When it receives complaints, it takes forever to attend to them. For instance, there was a complaint in 1980, and the commission did not investigate it until 1985; five years after the man who was supposed to be investigated had died.  

Laughter 

Mr Muntanga: The person died, and that is when the investigators came round to ask questions five years later. 

Mr Chairperson, if the new Government wants us to support it, it should ensure that the commission works. Otherwise, it might as well be disbanded. I would like to urge the Office of the Vice-President to send the commission to the provinces to attend to people’s complaints. We have just passed the budget for the Crime Intelligence Unit in the Police Force, which has been given enough money. If this unit can do its work, then senior officers who want to defend others will be defeated. Today, they will shift and, next day, they will want to arrest the whole village because they have no idea of what has happened. They are shameless. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Muntanga: When you go to arrest someone, you decide there and then that you want to arrest the whole village. At the end of the day, Your Honour the Vice-President, one wonders what that commission is doing. Investigate everybody, including the hon. Ministers of Justice, Defence and Foreign Affairs. We should know that they are alright. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 Mr Muntanga: Find out why the hon. Minister of Home Affairs sent away Father Banyangandora and then brought him back again. 

Laughter 

Mr Muntanga: Did he follow the right channel; did he do it out of malice or was he intoxicated?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 Mr Muntanga: We need these people to …

Mr Lubinda: On a point of order, Sir. 

Mr Muntanga: We want these people to know all this.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised. 

Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, clearly, I have been provoked to raise this point of order by the line of debate that Hon. Muntanga has chosen to take. 

I wonder, Sir, whether, in such a highly emotional discharge, the hon. Member is in order not to encourage the Commission for Investigations to investigate him as a public office holder, as hon. Member of Parliament for Kalomo, for the many vices that  are reported against him to Kalomo Council as well as hon. Ministers. 

Is he in order, Sir, not to refer to himself? 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

To the extent that the hon. Member was assigning functions which do not fall under the purview of the Commission for Investigations, he was out of order. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Therefore, as you debate, bear in mind that the Commission for Investigations is created by an Act of Parliament. You made the law and the law prescribed its functions. It is not involved in any criminal investigations. 

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for your guidance.  

The Deputy Chairperson: It is into investigations of maladministration …

Mr Muntanga: Exactly, Mr Chairperson. 

Laughter 

The Deputy Chairperson: … in the Public Service and parastatal companies. 

You may proceed, hon. Member.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, investigation of maladministration in the Government and parastatal companies is the core function of the commission. Hon. Muntanga is not in the Government, but he would like to know how you send diplomats into the Foreign Service. This is part of administration and governance. How did the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs manage to send some people, who can hardly read, to Japan?  

Laughter 

Mr Muntanga: Do not defend this. If you want me to mention names, I can do so.  

Dr E. Lungu: On a point of order, Sir. 

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised. 

Mr Muntanga: Do not push me or I will mention more names.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Dr E. Lungu: Mr Chairperson, I rise on a very serious point of order. Is Hon. Muntanga, who is perambulating about like a parabola-legged person, in order to start debating the Ministry of Foreign Affairs when the Vote on the Floor is different? 

I need your serious ruling, Sir. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!    

The Deputy Chairperson: The serious ruling is that the hon. Member should take that point of order into account as he continues with his debate.

You may proceed, hon. Member. 

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, I feel sad that an hon. Deputy Minister in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs has no idea about his administration and that he does not know how people are sent into the Foreign Service. 

Laughter 

 Mr Muntanga: I am not surprised that another point of order came so quickly. This shows total ignorance …

Laughter 

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Muntanga: … of the Budget …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Please, debate the Vote. With that guidance, you may proceed. 

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for your guidance. 

Sir, maladministration includes sitting in an office, reading the newspaper and doing nothing else. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: We should be able to know whether officers are performing their administrative duties or just ‘chewing’ Government resources. You just sit in your offices doing nothing because you are hon. Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs.

Laughter 

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Muntanga: The Commission for Investigations should look at this …

Ms Kapata: On a point of order, Sir. 

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised. 

Ms Kapata: Mr Chairperson, I stand on a very serious point of order. Is the hon. Member debating so badly and out of context, with a lot of malice on the Floor, in order to say that hon. Deputy Ministers just sit in their offices reading newspapers? How many Deputy Ministers’ offices has he visited as an hon. Member of Parliament? 

I need your serious ruling, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: To an extent, the hon. Deputy Ministers do not just sit in the offices drinking tea. He is out of order.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: You may continue with your debate, hon. Member.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. I appreciate my cousin because she was in charge at the time the registration number of a vehicle was changed to ALE 1922 which, maybe, she was using.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: That is maladministration.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter 

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, we are aware that a certain lady who was asked to go into the Foreign Service was asked to divorce her husband before going.

Hon. Government Members: Aah! Who?

Mrs Masebo: Question!

Mr Muntanga: Why are these things happening? I am appealing to the Commission for Investigations …

Interruption

Mrs Masebo: Kamumuna!

Mr Muntanga: … to, please, – … 

God save Zambia!

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: I have to ask God to do it for us.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: These people are more dangerous than I thought.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, I thank you very much.

Laughter

Mr Mwila: On a point order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwila: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Member of Parliament for Kalomo Central…

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, order!

You may continue, please.

Mr Mwila: … who looks as if he is drunk, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Kampyongo: And he smokes!

Mr Mwila: … in order to debate in that manner without debating the real issues. Is he in order? 

I need your serious ruling, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: The serious ruling is that I cannot discern any sign of drunkenness on the face of the hon. Member who was debating intelligently.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, the one who is …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Mwila: Nachipwa!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The ruling has been made that I do not discern any sign of drunkenness on your face. After all, you were debating intelligently.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Is there any further debate?

Interruptions

Mr Mulusa: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for this opportunity given to me to contribute to this very important debate. I think that both sides of the House must not take sides because one side is the Opposition and, the other, the Government. We need to see how this institution can add value to our governance.

Sir, remember that we have reached a very sensitive and critical juncture in our young history as a democracy. We are a beacon of hope for Africa and an example to everybody. We have just issued a bond and we are being rated. For the next ten years, we will be visited and rated almost twice every year. This is one of the important institutions whose existence adds value in terms of the score that we achieve and the extent to which we reduce our premium risk and, therefore, our cost of borrowing. So, what we need to do is to strengthen this institution and ensure that it is able to fill the gaps that we have in our governance. We have a lot of gaps and people have nowhere to go to seek redress. 

For example, which institution did people request to investigate, for instance, how our 284 parastatals were privatised and where the money went? 

Mr Mushanga: Nifwe twalile? Ni MMD!

Mr Mulusa: We do not know.

For instance, in the exercise to recover the money allegedly stolen during the Chiluba regime, we were told that more money was spent in trying to recover the money than was stolen. We have nowhere to go to request anyone to investigate and tell the public where our money went to.

Mr Mbewe: Sata!

Mr Mulusa: At the moment, we have now been told that the Roads Development Agency (RDA) has been transferred to State House. Now, if we start picking up irregularities in the way the RDA is managed from State House, who is going to investigate this? 

Questions such as: where should this institution be premised, beg an answer. I see that it is under the Office of the President. This is wrong. In fact, more money must be allocated to this commission for it to be reformed. For this reason, I would propose that this institution be established along the same lines as the Office of the Public Protector in South Africa.

Interruptions

Mr Ng’onga: Talk about Zambia.

Mr Mulusa: Recently, President Zuma spent over R200 million to upgrade his own village and the equivalent of this office is investigating this. The police, in South Africa, spent so much money through a bogus lease and this office managed to reverse the lease.

Therefore, my proposal is that, instead of giving an additional K1 billion for salaries in Salary Scale I, we need to allocate more money in order to give this institution capacity so that it adds value to our governance. This has far reaching positive implications for us. Like I have said, it will reduce the amount of money that we will be spending through borrowing.

Mr Chairperson, with these few words, and what I have proposed, I wish to support the strengthening of this institution.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Simbao: Mr Chairperson, I will also not take long on the Floor because I will be very brief.

Sir, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate the Vote for this very important office. 

From the outset, I must say that even though I am supporting this Vote, it is very poorly funded, and yet it is very important. If you look at the way certain arms of Government operate in this country, you will find that there is a big problem in how to investigate certain functions.

Mr Chairperson, there is a problem in the way officers in this commission are appointed. If the commissioners have to investigate parastatal companies and similar bodies, it is very difficult for them to do so, bearing in mind that they are appointed by almost the same authority that appoints the people who are in parastatals. So, its first problem is the way it commissioners are appointed. We must find another way of appointing the commissioners and not the system at the moment.

Currently, there is no way the commission will have any teeth to bite, especially that it is the same authority that appoints others that they are supposed to investigate. So, what it means is that, if the appointing authority does not want the others to be investigated, that will be the end of this particular investigation. Maybe, that is why, for a long time, this commission has been in the shadows. Literally, it has had no work to do because the people who are supposed to look the other way, do not want to do that because they think that, effectively, they might get involved if these people start revealing issues that concern the others that they have appointed.

As you may be aware, Mr Chairperson, these appointments have to be checked by the Office of the President and other agencies. So, in case the commission starts investigating somebody who has been cleared and accepted by the appointing authority, it might turn out that things start leading to the appointing authority. Therefore, we must ensure that the commissioners are appointed by a different body, and not through the present system.

Mr Chairperson, my biggest concern is that their core function is very poorly funded. If you look at their core function, Own Initiative Investigations, the allocation for next year is K73,500,000. There is no way the officers can carry out any investigations with this amount of money. K73,500,000 for a country as big as ours is nothing for such an activity. I think that the commission has been given insufficient funding so that it does not do anything serious. This is deliberate.

Mr Chairperson, there is no way that anyone who wants this commission to work can apportion it this amount of money.

Hon. Government Member: Efyo mwalecita.

Mr Simbao: Mr Chairperson, I have heard a running comment that, efyo mwalecita. Well, maybe, that is what we used to do which got us out of Government. You will also leave the way we left if you continue with this behaviour.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear.

Mr Simbao: If you do not want to learn, you will leave Government. Winning the Mufumbwe Parliamentary seat is nothing. 2016 is where the battle is. So, if you do not want to listen to what we are telling you because you want to copy what we did, you will leave office.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! 

You digressed a little. Concentrate on the Vote.

Mr Simbao: Mr Chairperson, please, also, tell them not to make running commentaries.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, order!

Mr Simbao: Mr Chairperson, surprisingly, On-the-Spot Investigations have been given very little money. The On-the-Spot Investigations require a lot of mobilisation. Problems which need to be investigated can occur anywhere in this country. You cannot give this amount of money to such an important commission and expect it to perform wonders. There is no way that can happen. I see a deliberate move by the Government to render the Commission for Investigations useless. It is for this reason that I have decided that, even though I will support the allocation, I want it put on record that, with this little money you have allocated to the commission, we should not expect anything tangible from it. In other words, it is moribund. If the Government wants the commission to do work which we shall be proud of, then, it should provide more funding. 

Mr Chairperson, I am sure the officers of the commission get very bored and frustrated when they see such things happening. Even though we might have made mistakes, I do not think that is reason enough for the PF Government to continue making the same mistakes as us. Why can those in Government not see that commissions like this one need our support? The Government has a choice of either making the commission active or abolishing it. We are wasting educated people’s time. These people, if supported, can do excellent work. Now, we all know that there are a lot of problems in this country. Why not support bodies that can solve those problems? That is why you find that people who have done a lot of wrong in the past are holding very high positions today.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simbao: Mr Chairperson, this is because commissions like this one are not being funded to do a good job. With this kind of behaviour, this country will never develop. All the wrong doers end up in very high positions because commissions like this one are toothless.

Hon. Opposition Member: For example?

Mr Simbao: I am not going to give examples. I have a lot of names, but I will not give examples. Sir, I would like to support this Vote with a lot of reservations. I also wish to urge my friends who are in power to seriously look at the 2014 Budget and ensure that they allocate a reasonable amount of money to the commission so that it can carry out its work properly.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank the four hon. Members of the Opposition who contributed to this debate.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! 

His Honour the Vice-President is winding up debate.

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, I must say that I actually agree with a lot of what they said, particularly the sentiment that it is either this commission does a good job or it is closed down. It does not need to be kept as a museum piece to show that once we were serious about the Ombudsman. The commission is thirty-eight years old. While Hon. Muntanga can excuse himself for never having been in Government, the chaps attacking me from the other side, …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions.

The Vice-President: … the hon. Members from the MMD, should blame themselves for the failures of the commission because they kept giving it miserable amounts of money every year. We have increased the funding by twenty five per cent. There seems to be some misunderstanding that the Commission for Investigations is just another police institution. It does not carry out the functions of the ACC or the Commission for Human Rights. It has a specific responsibility, which is to investigate complaints of maladministration. With those few words, I would like to ask the House to support the allocation.

I thank you, Sir.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! 

There shall be order in the House. Hon. Member on my left, there is no need for you to engage hon. Members on the right, please. I can see you from here.

VOTE 12/01 – (Commission for Investigations – Office of the President – Headquarters – K6,317,838,896).

Hon. Government Member: Zozwe.

Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairperson, I can hear some people talking about Zozwe, which is a very important place. May I have clarification on Programme 4001, Activity 003 – Office Administration – K927,700,000. Programme 4107, Activity 001 – Own Initiative Investigations – K73,500,000. I believe that is the core function of the commission is to carry out investigations whenever there are complaints of maladministration. There is a proposal for K73,500,000 in next year’s Budget for carrying out investigations. May I know why the allocation for Office Administration – K927,700,000, is more than that given to the core function of Own Initiative Investigations, which have been given K73,500,000?

Laughter

Dr Kazonga: Sir, may I have clarification on an activity I have not seen under Programme 4002. I have failed to find one allocation which is running in other budgets which is the one for Secretaries Day. Why is that activity not there? Does it mean there are no secretaries at the commission or there is some segregation?

The Deputy Minister in the Office of the Vice-President (Mr Kalaba): Mr Chairperson, the variance between the money allocated for office administration and the one for investigations is due to the increase in the cost of office materials.

Sir, as regards the other question relating to Secretaries Day, that activity has been catered for under general administration.

Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairperson, the second question has not been answered.

Mr Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the 
Chair]

Mr Kalaba: Mr Chairperson, when business was suspended I was about to say that that particular component now falls under Office Administration.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Livune (Katombola): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4035 – Logistics and Transport Management – K340,000,000. I have observed that the allocations for 2013 to all the activities under this programme have been drastically reduced. Why should the allocation to such an important department that needs to operate effectively be reduced?

Mr Kalaba: Mr Chairperson, the negative variance is due to the fact that the Government has sold some vehicles to eligible civil servants while the rest of the staff will be getting transport allowance.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Namulambe:  Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 4001, Activity 003 – Office Administration – K927,700,000 and Programme 4107, Activity 002 – Preparation of Annual Reports – K120,000,000. Why did the preparation of annual reports not come under Office Administration as opposed to putting it separately?

Mr Kalaba: Mr Chairperson, obviously, the allocation for Office Administration will be used to cover administrative costs. However, the latter activity he has talked about, which is the Preparation of Annual Reports, is a different activity altogether which requires its own allocation.

Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Chairperson, I am on page 154 looking at all the activities under Programme 4000 – Personnel Emoluments – K2,300,298,034. I want these chaps in the Government to give me the correct answer …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! 

Please, …

Mr Mbulakulima remained standing.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! 

Once I say, “order!”, you sit down.

Mr Mbulakulima sat down.

The Deputy Chairperson: I think let us observe the decorum of this House. You are all hon. Members, whether you are on the left or right. There are no chaps here. 

May you withdraw that word and, obviously, apologise for using it.

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Chairperson, I withdraw that word and …

Hon. Government Members: And apologise!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Mbulakulima: I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Apologise!

Mr Mbulakulima: Should I continue, Mr Chairperson?

Hon. Government Members: Apologise to His Honour the Vice-President.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The man is about to finish. He started apologising. 

Go ahead.

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Chairperson, I have withdrawn my remark.

The Deputy Chairperson: Thank you.

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Chairperson, I hope, in future, His Honour the Vice-President will not use the same word.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: I also hope that when you are told to apologise, you do the needful. There is no pain in apologising. It is honourable. May you apologise for referring to fellow hon. Members as chaps.

Mr Mbulakulima: I have withdrawn the word and apologised, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: Thank you.

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Chairperson, before I was interrupted, I was saying …

Mr Muntanga: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mbulakulima: Very good.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, I agree that whenever an unparliamentary word is used, the person who has used it should withdraw it and apologise. Earlier on, His Honour the Vice-President called the people on this side chaps. I did not hear him withdraw what he said and apologise. What is good for the goose is also good for the gander.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, order!

Allow the hon. Member to make his point.

Please, proceed.

Mr Muntanga: Therefore, is it in order that His Honour the Vice-President failed to withdraw an unparliamentary word and apologise, in the same vein that we are required to do so?

The Deputy Chairperson: The guidance from the Chairperson is that when you have noticed something unparliamentary coming out of the mouth of an hon. Member, you are duty bound to raise a point of order. I hope we will continue doing that as and when the situation demands.

Proceed, hon. Member.

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Chairperson, I was saying that I have observed that there is an increment of 47 per cent in the allocation for emoluments. Can I just have a breakdown of what caused this increment of 47 per cent. My second observation is on Programme 4108, …

The Deputy Chairperson: Draw the microphone closer to you.

Mr Mbulakulima drew the microphone closer.

The Deputy Chairperson: Yes, thank you.

Mr Mbulakulima: … Activity 002 – Electronic Media (TV and Radio) – K180,000,000. This amount is quite substantial. May I know just two programmes that this important institution will be airing on radio and television which will make it utilise this allocation.

Mr Kalaba: Mr Chairperson, there is a 15 per cent increment in salaries. There is also a 10 per cent increment in transport allowance and another 10 per cent in housing allowance.  As for his second observation, the variance is due to the envisaged reduction in the number of advertisements.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 4107 – Investigation of Maladministration in Government and Parastatal Bodies – K858,404,364. This amount is only 13.6 per cent of the total budget of the commission. Those who know Organisation Theory and Management know very well that, for any organisation to be efficient and effective, you need, at least, 25 per cent of the budget to be devoted to the organisation’s core business. Here, we have 13.6 per cent, which is way below that. Is His Honour the Vice-President assuring the nation that this level of allocation to the core business of the commission will still enable it to operate efficiently and effectively? Is this really an indicator of effectiveness in 2013 for the commission? Can he shed some light on that.

The Vice-President:  Mr Chairperson, I will say two things or, maybe, three if I am in the mood. First of all, the total amount under Programme 4107 is double the allocation in 2012. Secondly, what is in the budget and what is under one Head is also rather arbitrary. For example, if you take Programme 4035, Activity 002 – Motor Vehicle Maintenance & Running Costs – K100,000,000, you could equally put them under the cost of investigations. After all, we cannot have an on-the-spot investigation without moving from where you are to the spot.  There are always, of course, overruns. If the commission has a job to do, we will make sure that it works.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 12/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 13 – (Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs – K93,428,205,815).

The Minister of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs (Professor Luo): Mr Chairperson, hon. Members of Parliament will recall that, when the PF formed Government in 2011, His Excellency the President created the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs, which he charged with the following responsibilities:
(i)    administering all chiefdoms and traditional affairs;
(ii)    overseeing museums; 

(iii)    protecting and conserving natural and cultural heritage; 

(iv)    promoting and protecting indigenous knowledge;
 
(v)    promoting traditional crafts and tourism souvenirs; 

(vi)    folklore and oral traditions;
 
(vii)    registering villages; and
 
(viii)    empowering chiefs to preside over the development in their chiefdoms. {mospagebreak}

Sir, this ministry is the cornerstone of good governance at the local level, custodian for health promotion, custodian of indigenous and conventional education, custodian of human and natural resources, visible and invisible and, in turn, if the vision of this ministry is properly harnessed, the driver of rural development.

Mr Chairperson, it is common knowledge that chiefs are the longest-serving human capital and custodians of local government. Some of us are aware that, before Independence, the colonialists relied on traditional leaders for local governance and collection of vital statistics through village registers. Their governance system was known as the Native Authority. To this day, in the Southern Province, village headmen are still called ba Sibbuku because they were responsible for registering births and deaths. Furthermore, the chiefs were referred to as the Native Authority because of their responsibility for agriculture, opening up of roads and other activities. In short, they were, in fact, responsible for rural development with the support of the Government that time.

Mr Chairperson, in summary, the PF Government has established the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs to champion and deliver rural development through economic activities in the various chiefdoms, thus creating wealth. 

As a reminder, the mission statement of the ministry is:

‘To Administer and Promote Chiefs’ Affairs, Traditional Governance and Preserve Zambia’s Heritage and Culture for Sustainable Rural Development and National Identity’.

Mr Chairperson, …

Interruptions

Professor Luo: Nkamulowa.

Laughter

Hon. Members: Interpret that.

Professor Luo: Mr Chairperson, His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia, …

Laughter

Professor Luo: Mr Chairperson, it means that we should all keep quiet and listen to the hon. Minister of Chiefs and …

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! 

Allow the hon. Minister to deliver her policy statement.

You may proceed, hon. Minister.

Professor Luo: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for protecting me. His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia, in his Address to this august House when he opened of the First Session of the Eleventh National Assembly, re-iterated his pledge to make Zambia a better place for all in line with the aspirations of his Government when he said:

“The citizens of this great land not only deserve better lives, but are also entitled to better lives. That includes rural Zambia.”

Mr Chairperson, the ministry was established at a time when the poverty levels in this country, especially in the rural areas, were very high despite the chiefdoms being endowed with many natural resources. The reason for this is that the critical ingredients, elements and players in our economic development have not been given centre stage.

Mr Chairperson, let me remind this august House of the critical role that our chiefdoms can play in Zambia’s development agenda. All those present in this august House come from chiefdoms. Chiefs are the custodians of land.

Laughter

Professor Luo: If they are completely marginalised, except for appointing them or visiting them as symbolic representatives, especially when we are seeking re-election, and then we all troop to their palaces with brown envelopes, as was the case during the MMD Government rule, …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. MMD Members: Aah!

Mr Mwila: Abena Dora!

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Professor Luo: … then, we are not likely to move forward, as a country. We believe, as a Government, that meaningful investments in chiefdoms will turn this country around. In this regard, His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia tasked the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs, together with the Ministry of Local Government and Housing, with the responsibility to review the Chief’s Act, the Local Government Act and other pieces of legislation related to the work of the ministry within eighteen months.

The Ministry was also tasked with the responsibility to examine and define the roles of chiefs, which have remained ambiguous to date.

Interruptions

Professor Luo: Mr Chairperson, at this point, I would like to share some of the achievements of the ministry in 2011 and 2012.

Mr Chairperson, since its establishment, the ministry commenced the employment of personnel to fill the 1,002 positions at the headquarters and in all the districts of Zambia. In this regard, about 50 per cent of the approved positions have been filled as per Treasury Authority No 20 of 2011, effective 1st January, 2012. 

Sir, the ministry also embarked on a human resource development programme, and this will be an on-going activity. The ministry is also working on its strategic plan and has developed its work plan for 2013 to 2015. Furthermore, a lot of progress has been made in setting up provincial and district offices. 

Mr Chairperson, in relation to chiefs’ affairs, the ministry conducted sensitisation workshops and visits to selected chiefdoms in all the provinces to sensitise the traditional leaders on the PF Government’s policies and its desire to enact a Traditional Leadership Bill to repeal and replace the Chiefs Act, Cap. 287 of 1965 and the registration and development of the Village Act, Cap. 289 of the Laws of Zambia. As per the directive by His Excellency the President, the ministry has worked hard on the Traditional Leadership Bill which has been finalised and awaits submission to Parliament for consideration. The ministry also facilitated the holding of the First Session of the House of Chiefs in May, 2012, at which, among other issues, the Draft Constitution was debated. I am also pleased to report that there has been a rise in the monthly subsidies and wages for chiefs and retainers. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Luo: Mr Chairperson, those who go to chiefs at night with brown envelopes will not achieve much. The ministry also processed papers for the recognition and gazetting of six chiefs by the Republican President. Funds were also released for the rehabilitation of four chiefs’ palaces during the period under review. 

In view of the many wrangles in the various chiefdoms, meetings have been facilitated in three affected chiefdoms and modalities of resolving the conflicts have been worked out. 

Sir, the ministry contributed towards the hosting of seventy-seven traditional ceremonies and the installation of one chief during the period under review.

Mr Chairperson, let me now talk about the National Heritage Conservation Commission (NHCC).  This commission is mandated to inspect, document and manage heritage resources spread across the country. There are currently over 3, 000 cultural and natural heritage sites. These sites can also benefit from being listed on the world list of world heritage sites. In 2012, using the budgeted funds, the NHCC was only able to undertake site inspections and maintenance of one site, the Barotse Cultural Landscape. Due to inadequate funding, the boundary demarcation could not be done. 

Mr Chairperson, in relation to art and culture, this August House will recall that until recently, culture and art was the responsibility of the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs. Art is now under the Ministry of Tourism and Art. However, I shall highlight the achievements that were made when that function was under my ministry.

Mr Chairperson, the ministry commenced the construction of eight out of nine cultural villages in nine provinces of the country while the maintenance of theatre halls and the rehabilitation of Kitwe Little Theatre are still on going.

Mr Chairperson, assistance was given to some artistes and art groups with funds from the Cultural and Creative Industry Fund, namely Yezi Arts, Sister D and Kamulongwe, to name just a few, and hosted art and cultural-related visitors from Zimbabwe, China, Mozambique, Angola and Cuba.

Sir, in the execution of its functions, the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs has faced a number of challenges, which include inadequate human capital, budgetary constraints, inadequate and dilapidated supportive infrastructure, which we inherited from the previous Government, and inadequate office space, which has impeded the smooth operations of the ministry, as the former employees of the Ministry of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication share offices with us. Transport was also inadequate and the operations of the ministry were affected, especially in the monitoring and evaluation of chiefdoms and heritage sites, and our research activities.

Sir, the NHCC has found it difficult to perform its function because it requires, at least, ten utility vehicles, but we did not have enough of them. 

Mr Chairperson, the commission has four regional offices based in Livingstone, Lusaka, Kasama and Solwezi. As a result of lack of transport, it has been unable to inspect and maintain many sites, which has led to a public outcry, accusing the commission of neglecting the heritage sites. Further, some of the complaints were coming from the Government, which visited some of the sites. Also, sadly, our ministry, through the HCC, inherited huge debts from the previous Government of about K4.7 billion. We have been spending the meagre resources on dismantling the debts that we inherited. The commission has had to share resources between workers’ salaries and paying the debts. We also have a bill for salaries of about K9.9 billion, both for the existing and retired staff.

Sir, due to inadequate funding, the national heritage sites that should be making money for us, if we managed to release them on the world market, were unable to do that. We also need to beef up some of the infrastructure that is important, such as the Victoria Falls, Tumbachushi Falls in Kawambwa, Mambilima Falls in Mansa and Kalambo Falls in Mbala. This has a big bearing on our tourism and visitor enjoyment and attraction sites.

Mr Chairperson, without infrastructure, sites are poorly presented and discourage would-be visitors and investors. In addition, without visitation to these sites, members of the chiefdom and local community lose out on the opportunities to provide goods and services or sale products to the visitors. Further, when appropriate infrastructure is not provided, sites suffer degradation as a result of encroachment and other anthropogenic activities.

Sir, the museums, which should be contributing to indigenous knowledge and tourism, need special attention. The Livingstone Museum requires refurbishment, if it is to exist in the tourist capital. Although the Lusaka Museum is very modern and impressive, it is under-resourced and requires recapitalisation in terms of knowledge and products. Although the Mbala Museum has a lot of potential, it requires overhauling and refurbishment, just to mention a few.

Mr Chairperson, let me now talk about this year’s Budget and what we intend to do as a ministry. I would like Hon. Dr Kazonga to listen attentively.

To ensure effective implementation of the new programmes, the ministry’s budget has been rationalised and harmonised in such a manner that it is in line with the vision of the ministry to champion rural development with chiefs, not only providing the leadership, but also ensuring full participation of their communities.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Prof Luo: Mr Chairperson, the guiding principle is that, if somebody does something for me, without my involvement, then, they do not like me. The PF has fully demonstrated the love for the people by involving them through chiefdoms.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Prof Luo: Mr Chairperson, it is our sincere belief that wealth creation starts at the unit level. In view of this, we, as a ministry, shall be driven by the slogan, ‘One chiefdom, three industries’ and, eventually, work towards, ‘One village, one industry’.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Prof Luo: In preparation for the 2013 Budget, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Prof Luo: Mr Chairperson, let me remind this august House that we are allowed to dream and all the great things in this world have come to fruition through dreams. 

Sir, in preparation for the 2013 Budget, my ministry, through the Department of Research, undertook a quick assessment of the visible and invisible, natural and human resources in the chiefdoms. Based on this information, each chiefdom will identify the activities to help generate wealth. With the support of various partners, capacity building activities will also be conducted for both the chiefs and the populace. As evident in our ministry’s budget, it will contribute to the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework for the year 2013 to 2015 by including programmes that are key to developing the rural areas and are likely to improve the lives of the Zambian people by reducing rural poverty.

Mr Chairperson, the provisions in the 2013 Budget are made in such a way that the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs will support chiefdoms to set up economic development activities in the various chiefdoms. Success in these activities will have a direct bearing on rural poverty reduction in Zambia, and thus contribute to improving the lives of our people.

Sir, each chiefdom is expected to come up with, at least, three economically-productive activities based on the resource availability in the chiefdoms; natural and human, visible and invisible. K3.3 billion has been allocated for this activity. Other programmes that will be implemented include birth and death registration. K535,250,000 has been allocated for this activity

Mr Chairperson, the success of all these ambitious activities will depend on the wellness of the communities in the chiefdoms. To this effect, my ministry, at the chiefdom level, will actively participate in activities around health promotion and, in particular, access to clean water and sanitation in partnership with the Ministry of Health. We want all our chiefdoms to achieve the elimination of open defecation as has been done in Chiefs Macha and Mapanza’s chiefdoms. This is achievable and was the case before Independence. 

Sir, our ministry, working together with the chiefs, will launch campaigns around the prevention of Human Immunodeficiency Virus/Acquired Immunodeficiency Syndrome (HIV/AIDS), including male circumcision, elimination of gender-based violence, child marriages, total elimination of pediatric AIDS, reduction in alcohol and substance abuse and promotion of good hygiene practices.

Furthermore, as a way of contributing to food security and nutrition, my ministry will participate, in partnership with the Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock, in the promotion of agricultural activities and practices such as conservation farming, animal husbandry and seed multiplication at the chiefdom level.

Mr Chairperson, in partnership with the Ministry of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection, my ministry will implement programmes around conservation of the environment such as tree planting. K50,000,000 has been allocated for this activity. 

Sir, the approach to be used is that of selecting chiefs in every province to champion a particular cause. All the energies and finances will target the chiefs to galvanize others.

I will now give some examples of success stories. When Chief Mumena championed male circumcision, the numbers went up. Chiefs Macha and Mapanza are champions in the elimination of open defecation. This has led to people putting up toilets in their chiefdoms.

Sir, my ministry will work tirelessly to bring these programmes to scale. These programmes are critical and if they are implemented, will ensure the good health of our people. This will make them more productive and efficient. In partnership with the Ministry of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education, we intend to develop a curriculum for the training of chiefs. This initiative used to happen in the olden days as a strategy to continuously capacitate the traditional leaders. These courses were available at Chalimbana College, which has now been turned into a university. A total of K400 million has been provided for this activity. The ministry shall document Zambia’s rich tradition, and a sum of K436,250,000 has been provided for this activity.

Mr Chairperson, there can be no sustainable development if the custodians of wealth are marginalised. My Government has, therefore, firstly, scored by identifying the chiefs and other traditional leaders in a meaningful and structured way. This is because we recognise their potential and historic leadership in shaping the economy and the politics of this country.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Excellent!

Professor Luo: Mr Chairperson, the ministry will continue with its research activities in identifying and listing heritage sites. Funds allowing, we shall continue with the programme of rehabilitating some of the already identified sites. As a ministry, we shall celebrate our heritage which is rich and critical to the sustainability of tourism. It will also help to promote knowledge and learning. Doing things that way will also help us to protect our sites for future generations. This will give people the potential to start providing many of these products.

Mr Chairperson, at this point, let me ask all the hon. Members of Parliament to look on their left and right and see the empty seats which are around them. Those empty seats stand for the people in the rural areas who have been marginalised. Some of you were voted for by them. 

Interruptions

Professor Luo: Mr Chairperson, in addition, our ministry shall embark on a programme of discovered lost skills such as weaving, producing of cloth from barks of trees, beadwork and other skills that we think should be rekindled such as making reed mats. To this effect, we shall identify those with skills and ensure that they pass on these skills through training. The ministry shall also continue with its ambitious projects of constructing cultural centres and chiefs’ palaces. K11,215,000,000 has been provided for this activity. 

Mr Chairperson, I want to call upon all hon. Members of Parliament …

Professor Luo coughed.

Hon. Opposition Members: Drink some water!

Professor Luo: I do not need any help. 

Laughter

Professor Luo: Mr Chairperson, I want to call on all hon. Members of Parliament, especially the majority of us in this august House that come from rural constituencies, to support my ministry’s budget and concept paper. I am going to lay on the Table my ministry’s concept paper so that those of you with great brains can contribute to it. Those who have no brains can stay out of the discussion. 

Interruptions

Professor Luo: Mr Chairperson, this budget …

Mr Simbao: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.
Mr Simbao: Mr Chairperson, I rise on a very serious point of order. The hon. Minister of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs indicated that there are some hon. Members of Parliament in this House who have no brains. Is she in order to make such a statement? 

I need your serious ruling, Sir.

The Chairperson: Order, order!

To the extent that the hon. Minister insinuated that there were some hon. Members who did not carry brains with them ...

Laughter

The Chairperson: … she was out of order.

Laughter

The Chairperson: May she continue, please.

Professor Luo: Mr Chairperson, let me repeat what I said. I am calling on all hon. Members of Parliament, especially those who represent rural constituencies, to support our ministry’s budget for 2013. This budget will definitely put our rural areas on the right footing. I look to you for overwhelming support for the 2013 budget for the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs.

Mr Chairperson, as I said, I am going to lay the concept paper on the Table, which I would like hon. Members of Parliament to review and contribute to.

The Chairperson: Order!

Before you lay the paper on the Table, may you, please, withdraw the word you used and apologise to the hon. Members, who always carry their brains with them when they come to this House.

Laughter

Professor Luo: Mr Chairperson, I withdraw the statement and apologise. I will lay the paper on the Table because I would like the hon. Members to move with us with regard to this concept.

Professor Luo laid the paper on the Table.

Hon. Members: Dorika!

Laughter

The Chairperson: Order!

Professor Luo: Mr Chairperson, my name is Professor Nkandu Luo, and I have never been called by any English name.

I thank you, Sir. 

The Chairperson: Thank you. I take full cognisance of those names.

Mr Bwalya (Lupososhi): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to debate on the 2013 budget for the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs.

Mr Chairperson, for and on behalf of the people of Lupososhi Constituency, the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs is very critical, especially that Lupososhi Constituency is rural, and has about four chiefs and sub-chiefs.

The hon. Minister of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs has quite a lot of work to do. There is a need for this country to conduct some research on some of the traditional activities and cultural values because a number of them have outlived their usefulness and are not adding value to our country in this changing world. It is, therefore, incumbent upon the ministry to carry out research and educate our traditional leaders so that some of the traditional values and practices such as cleansing, can be discarded, especially that there is HIV/AIDS.

Mr Chairperson, the other issue that needs to be addressed is that of sub-chiefs. As I said, there are four chiefs in my constituency, namely Senior Chieftainess Chungu, Chief Katuta, Chief Togati and Chief Chibaye. All these have no palaces to write home about. Their palaces are quite dilapidated, and the infrastructure is falling apart.

The Chairperson: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

_______

HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

_______

MOTION

ADJOURNMENT

The Vice-President (Dr Scott): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

_______

The House adjourned at 1918 hours until 1430 hours on Thursday, 15th November, 2012.