DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE SECOND SESSION OF THE ELEVENTH ASSEMBLY

Thursday, 15th November, 2012

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER
_______

ANNOUNCEMENT BY MR SPEAKER

HALF DAY MEETING TO SHARE INFORMATION ON THE ROLE OF MEDICAL MALE CIRCUMSISON IN REDUCING THE TRANSMISSION OF HIV

Mr Speaker: I have a very important announcement to make. I wish to inform the House that on Monday, 19th November, 2012, the Embassy of the United States of America and its cooperating partners will hold a half day meeting to share information on the role of medical male circumcision in reducing the transmission of HIV and also to explore ways in which hon. Members of Parliament can use their leadership positions to increase the uptake of voluntary medical male circumcision ...

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: … in their various constituencies. The meeting will be held in the Auditorium at Parliament Buildings, at 0900 hours. I, therefore, urge all hon. Members to attend this very important workshop.

I thank you.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: The announcement is directed to all hon. Members of Parliament.

Laughter

_______ 

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

MALARIA CASES IN MULOBEZI DISTRICT IN 2012

264. Mr Sililo (Mulobezi) asked the Minister of Health:

(a)    how many cases of malaria were recorded in Mulobezi District from January to June, 2012; and

(b)    of the total cases, how many resulted in deaths.

The Deputy Minister of Health (Dr Chikusu): Mr Speaker, the number of malaria cases recorded in Mulobezi District from January to June, 2012 were 13, 014 of which 11, 471 were confirmed malaria cases and 1,543 were clinical malaria cases.

Mr Speaker, the number of deaths resulting from malaria cases were six of which five were confirmed cases and one was a clinical malaria case. I must mention that I had called Hon. Sililo to come to my ministry at 11 o’clock. Unfortunately, he never came.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter

Mr Mufalali (Senanga): Mr Speaker, arising from the number of malaria cases in Mulobezi, what mitigating measures is the ministry taking to reduce the huge numbers of cases?

Dr Chikusu: Mr Speaker, we have increased the activity of indoor residue spraying (IRS). We also distributed over 800 thousand mosquito nets for the Western Province. We feel that these measures will competently reduce the cases.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Mr Speaker, out of the 800 thousand mosquito nets for the whole province, I would like to know how many were directed to Mulobezi Constituency.

Dr Chikusu: Mr Speaker, we have not yet distributed the mosquito nets because they have just arrived and we have dedicated them all to the Western Province. We have not yet decided how many, in particular, will be taken to Mulobezi, but all I can say for now is that the number will be substantial.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Antonio (Kaoma Central): Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister confirm that there was no malaria drug in Mulobezi Constituency from January to June, 2012?

The Minister of Health (Dr Kasonde): Mr Speaker, it is not correct that we did not have any treatment for malaria during that period in Mulobezi Constituency. I do not know the exact figures, but I agree that there was a period when there was a shortage of anti-malaria tablets which I, indeed, reported to this august House 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kakoma (Zambezi West): Mr Speaker, …

Mr Mwaliteta: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwaliteta: Mr Speaker, I rise on a serious point of order. Two days ago, Patriotic Front (PF) cadres escorted Hon. Masumba to this House and a point of order was raised on the hon. Minister of Home affairs for allowing PF cadres to stand by the road …

Hon. UPND Members: Block.

Mr Mwaliteta: Stand by the road.

Hon. UPND Members: Block.

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Mwaliteta: Mr Speaker, your ruling was that the hon. Minister of Home Affairs was to take note of that. Now, is the United Party National Development (UPND) in order to bring its cadres to Parliament premises so that they can block the road to the entrance? They did so as I was entering. I need your serious ruling.

Hon. Government Member: And yet they will never rule.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

The presence of the UPND cadres has been notified to the National Assembly and it is in connection with a petition which they are in the process of presenting to my office. The security officers of the National Assembly are attending to the cadres duly. There is no breach of peace and order.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kakoma: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out whether the IRS and distribution of mosquito nets have been done in Mulobezi. If these have been done, why are the malaria cases rising in that district.

Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, I always have a chronological difference with my colleagues when they ask questions. I recall that the hon. Member for Mulobezi wanted to know what the Government was doing to handle the rising malaria cases in his area. Surely, another hon. Member should not now ask why there was no aerosol interventions or mosquito nets in the area. The hon. Deputy Minister clearly outlined how we responded to the scourge which was observed by our technical team and by my visit there in April this year.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Speaker, arising from the answer given by the hon. Deputy Minister, and his salient statement that the hon. Member for Mulobezi never went to his office, may I know whether he has enough drugs for malaria in his office, so that we can all go there to collect them instead of him calling the hon. Member of Parliament for Mulobezi only.

Dr Chikusu: Mr Speaker, the role of the PF Government …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order!

Dr Chikusu … is to bring hon. Members to its offices to discuss the various issues affecting their constituencies. I think that extending an invitation to the hon. Member of Mulobezi was the correct way of doing things.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister confirm the type of chemicals used to spray people’s homes. Is it the condemned Dichlorodiphenyltrichloroethane (DDT) or another drug? 

Dr Chikusu: Mr Speaker, the drug DDT is not condemned. The chemicals used are Pirimiphos-methyl, the term is difficult to pronounce, and Carbamylmethy. I hope you have all gotten the names. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, I just want the hon. Deputy Minister of Health to categorically state the policy difference between the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) …

Professor Lungwangwa: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Order!

A point of order is raised.

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, I apologise to my colleague for disturbing his flow of thought. The hon. Deputy Minister of Health is one of the most outstanding pharmacists in this country. We all know his professional standing in the nation in the area of pharmacy. If he cannot pronounce the chemicals that are used to spray our homes, then where is our hope in pharmacy …

Laughter

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, is he in order to fail to pronounce the drugs properly so that all of us can understand what he is talking about. That is what will make us go to our homes with hope in the chemicals that are being sprayed?

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Order!

He may not have been very audible, however, I cannot say that he failed to pronounce those words.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, when the MMD was in Government, it came to this House and informed us that DDT was a dangerous chemical and that it was banned by the World Health Organisation (WHO). The MMD is the party which the hon. Deputy Minister belongs to. Today, he is serving in the PF Government and telling us that DDT is not a dangerous chemical. Can he reconcile the policies of his party and these of the PF Government which he is serving over this matter?

Interruptions

Dr Chikusu: Mr Speaker, I would like to tell my hon. Member that there is no contradiction. The position is that DTT is not dangerous pharmacologically. The spraying started during the MMD rule and it has continued. We, in the PF Government, …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chikusu: … have …

Mr Speaker: Order!

The hon. Deputy Minister is not very audible, if you drown his voice, he will be hardly heard.

Dr Chikusu: … have enhanced the programme.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mushanga (Bwacha): Mr Speaker, I want to find out from the hon. Minister whether it is true that Coartem worsens the sickness when it is taken by a patient suffering from malaria. Can the hon. Minister confirm that.

Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, I am always reluctant to have my consultations in public.

Laughter

Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, in the interest of confidentiality, the hon. Member, if he wants to know the details of his illness …

Laughter

Dr Kasonde: … should come in an appropriate manner to an appropriate place.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter

__________

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the 
Chair]

VOTE 13/01 – (Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs – Headquarters – K93,428,205,815)

(Consideration resumed)

Mr Bwalya (Lupososhi): Mr Chairperson, I am glad to be given back the Floor. I want to, first of all, congratulate the Chipolopolo boys on their splendid performance last evening.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bwalya: Mr Chairperson, the winning spree has continued.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bwalya: Mr Chairperson, may I also congratulate Hon. Masumba on his appointment as hon. Deputy Minister for North-Western Province.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bwalya: Mr Chairperson, yesterday, I was saying that the chiefs’ palaces in Luwingu District are in a deplorable state. The palaces for Chief Tungati, Chief Chabula, Senior Chieftainess Chungu and Chief Katuta are in a bad state and need to be attended to. I would like to urge the hon. Minister to take this issue into consideration as he implements the 2013 Budget.

Sir, I am glad that the hon. Minister talked about the partnership with various ministries in the implementation of One Chiefdom, One Industry Policy. This is critical, especially for the people of Luwingu District, in both Lubansenshi and Lupososhi constituencies, because the district is under extremely high poverty levels.

Mr Chairperson, if there is any hon. Member of Parliament who is under pressure, it is the the one for Lupososhi because of the constituency being the first born of the Patriotic Front (PF) in 2001. Therefore, the people there expect a lot in terms of development.

Sir, the hon. Minister needs to note that the road infrastructure is very bad in Luwingu District. Therefore, this one industry per chiefdom strategy will only succeed if she works closely with the hon. Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication and the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing, who are charged with the responsibility of ensuring that the feeder roads are worked on.

Mr Chairperson, the other aspect that requires a lot of attention, as we implement the 2013 Budget, is the sensitisation of our chiefs to iron out the chiefdom boundary and succession wrangles. They also need to be taught that, according to the Constitution of the Republic of Zambia, they are not supposed to participate actively in politics because they put politicians in an awkward position, especially during the campaigns, when they take sides and propose people to be adopted by any political party. So, the hon. Minister has work to do in ensuring that our chiefs are sensitised so that they can retain their traditional leadership, trust and respect.

Sir, the other aspect that is quite thorny is that of transport for the chiefs. Although the former Government allocated vehicles to chiefs, it appears that the usage of these vehicles was not properly defined. It seems that chiefs do not use them for the intended purpose. It is, therefore, my appeal that this particular gesture, good as it is, must be well-defined. We also need to know whether the gesture will be extended to those chiefs who are now taking over after being recognised by the Government. Those are the questions that we receive. The people want to know when the vehicles will be given to a particular chief who takes over from another.

Mr Chairperson, the other aspect is that some traditions demand that, when a chief dies, the palace be brought down and a new one built for the new chief. I think that you need to adopt clear policies on the values, norms and traditions of particular chiefdoms. I suggest that, when the Government spends money to build palaces, they should not be brought down. The person who takes over as chief should use the same palace, instead of subjecting the subjects of the chiefdom to moulding bricks every time there is a new chief.

Sir, with these few words, I thank you, Sir.

The Chairperson: Order!

I would like to advise that, when we have more than fifteen people indicating to debate, we look at those hon. Members who have had no opportunity to debate in the past. So, bear with us in that regard.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Hon. Mtolo Phiri.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Yes, we are all paid for talking, but we cannot talk indefinitely. So, we have to make a choice.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Long live the Chair!

Mr Mtolo (Chipata Central): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for this rare opportunity to debate on the Floor of the House.

Sir, as I contribute to the debate on the Floor, I would like to take note of the hon. Minister, Professor Nkandu Luo’s statement yesterday. She said that she would like to push for rural development. To me, that was a pleasant statement from her. However, hearing the Professor talk, yesterday, …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mtolo: … I wondered why there was so much similarity between the Professor‘s debate and that of Hon. Dr Katema’s policy statement for his ministry.

Mr Chairperson, what made me wonder were the similarities in the way in which they debated. Sometimes, with due respect, I wondered whether they were justifying the existence of these ministries or making their policy statements. 

Sir, I would like to draw the attention of the House to some of the similarities that I noticed. For example, Hon. Luo talked about heritage sites, yet she is heading the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs. I wondered whether this should not have been left to the Ministry of Tourism and Arts.

Mr Chairperson, I will compare her speech with the one by Hon. Katema, who talked about supervising health posts. When he talked about that, again, I wondered whether the Ministry of Health was being left out of that arena. Yesterday, Hon. Professor Luo also talked about HIV/AIDS and circumcision. Yes, our traditional chiefs have a lot to do with that but, then, I wondered where the ministries of Health, and Community Development, Mother and Child Health were in that equation.

Sir, Hon. Katema talked about the environment in his policy statement. However, that made me question where the Ministry of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection was. Why are we having these strange overlaps in these policy debates? I equally wondered where the Ministry of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection was when Hon. Luo talked about planting trees.

Mr Chairperson, let me go back to Hon. Katema, who talked about the prevention of mother to child transmission (PMCT), … 

Interruptions

Mr Mtolo: Yes, because I want Dr Katema to be attentive.

Laughter

Mr Mtolo: I further wondered where the Ministry of Health was in all this and was led to conclude that the House should take a critical look at the existence of the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs and, indeed, the roles of the Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Child Health.

Mr Chairperson, I have due respect for the traditional leaders. My town houses two chiefs, one for the Ngonis and the other for the Chewa. These are leaders with many subjects. The Paramount Chief of the Chewa, for example, has more than 13 million subjects under him, which is almost the population of Zambia. So, I respect the role of the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs, but ask myself whether we need it as a ministry or a department under the ministry of rural development.

Mr Ng’onga: Question!

Mr Mtolo: Mr Chairperson, the main reason I thought I should contribute, this afternoon, is that I believe that we, really, need to have a ministry of rural development and to put the sub-sectors like chiefs and traditional affairs under it. 

Mr Chairperson, for the point to sink in, I will not debate for long. My point is that, if one listens to the policy statements, they will note that everything is leading to issues of rural development. We need a ministry of rural development so that those of us who hail from remote constituencies can have a voice. I would like an able Minister like Hon. Luo to lead a stronger and more vibrant ministry like a ministry of rural development. Let us not relegate such intelligence to the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs. There are many hon. Members waiting to debate. 

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Belemu (Mbabala): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for the opportunity to debate the policy statement under the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs. Before I go further, I just want to join the hon. Minister in paying tribute to the two chiefs, who are the only ones in my constituency, whom she mentioned as two of the most outstanding chiefs in this country, namely, Chief Mapanza and Chief Macha. I think that their levels of leadership and abilities to mobilise communities are outstanding. I believe that there are lessons to be learnt from their leadership, which include the fact that it does not pay for our traditional leaders to be paraded for political expedience. They have more honourable functions and roles to play in our society. Respect is not just earned like in the story of The Old Man and the Medal. While I commend the fact that the Government recognises these two chiefs and others, I think that it must go a step further and begin to facilitate tangible development in these two chiefdoms so that the chiefs are encouraged to continue on this path.

Mr Chairperson, in this regard, I wish to propose that the ministry comes up with a system that rewards chiefs who have served honourably in their positions, instead of one that rewards those who accept to be paraded for political gain. We have seen, in the past, that it was only chiefs who sounded like they wanted to be politicians who receive a lot of the Government’s attention. For us to reverse that, we need to recognise chiefs who have mobilised their subjects for the sake of development.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Belemu: Mr Chairperson, I wish to propose that we, as politicians, desist from parading chiefs at political rallies and meetings.

Hon. Opposition Member: Dr Scott.

Mr Belemu: That is unnecessary and is not the role that we envisage for this ministry. Therefore, as we look at these traditional establishments, let us put them in their right perspective. They are capable of offering alternative leadership at the community level and play the very important, but non-partisan role of mobilising their communities for the general development of their chiefdoms. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Belemu: I am very grateful that I represent these two chiefs in this House and come from that constituency. Their achievements are mine too. The two chiefs have not been used in political statements. They are very honourable and you will rarely see them at political events, which should be encouraged across the country.

Mr Chairperson, there are a number of outstanding issues that the ministry should attend to, one of which is that of boundary disputes. I would have loved to hear more from the hon. Minister on the actual steps that the ministry has come up with to resolve the many chiefdom disputes across this country. It is very important that the ministry tells us its targets in terms of minimising or eliminating boundary disputes.

Sir, may I add that the ministry must take a keen interest in supervising those involved in resolving boundary disputes in chiefdoms. We have seen a number of District Commissioners (DCs) attempt to resolve chiefdom disputes. With due respect, some of these DCs are not schooled enough to understand matters of traditional boundaries and chiefdoms. As a result, they worsen the problems they try to resolve. In my opinion, the ministry is the one that should deal with these matters, instead of what I would consider very junior officers like DCs.
    
  The ministry must take up the matter of boundaries as a project. They must not run away from that responsibility and hide under officers such as DCs some of who in, as I have indicated, are not qualified to handle the minimum disputes in these areas. We have people on the Museums and National Heritage Board who can help us to synthesise the background to these boundaries and help us to take a clear position with regard to boundaries. 

Sir, while on boundaries, I must also add that the Government must be very clear as to which maps we are going to respect. They must provide us with those maps. We have heard so much about the 1958 chiefs’ boundaries and traditional boundaries maps. At some point, we were promised copies, but did not get any.  What is so secretive about these maps? May we be availed the maps. May the chiefdoms be availed those maps. May the officers who are qualified to interpret the maps be sent to the chiefdoms where there are issues with boundaries so that the maps can be interpreted correctly and availed to the citizens. We need to have access to the maps so that we know what is going on. 

Mr Chairperson, we need to seriously consider matters of succession disputes or wrangles. In this country, we have had a number of succession matters and these are still pending. The ministry must take up a pivotal role of ensuring that disputes are minimised or completely eliminated. The trouble that we have with regard to some of these succession wrangles is that they are instigated by politicians. Some of them are instigated by people who have interests in these matters. May I appeal to the ministry that when it comes to matters of recognising chiefs, it should not be based on who is supposed to be in which political party or who is a favourite in the eyes of who. It must be based on the customs, traditions and norms of particular chiefdoms. The ministry must come out strongly on the non-interference of succession in various chiefdoms. At times, what we have seen is that the succession of chiefs that seem to support, for example, the PF Government, are recognised faster than those that have been pending for a long time. I think we must move away from such things if we are going to have more chiefs with exemplary performance. 

Mr Chairperson, still on tradition and chiefs’ affairs, the Government must also guide us on what the policy is on traditional ceremonies. In the previous administration, we were told that the Government would fully support, at least, one major traditional ceremony in each province. As Government officers, we knew that we all needed to pool our resources and participate in those traditional ceremonies. Lately, what we have seen is that even chiefs who are not recognised by the Government have traditional ceremonies and Government officials go to officiate. So, they must tell us exactly what their policy regarding traditional ceremonies is. They must really tell us who they support in terms of traditional ceremonies and to what extent. 

Sir, yesterday, we heard a word, ‘equality’ being used so many times. We have seen that some chiefs are given preferential treatment when it comes to traditional ceremonies. There are those who are viewed to be negative in the eyes of those who are in power at that particular time. They tend to discriminate against those who they think are neutral like my chiefs.

Mr Chairperson, the support that we give to traditional ceremonies must not be based on political patronage. It must be based on the tradition and on a very clear policy of the Government so that even chiefs, themselves, are fully aware of what they can benefit from the Government in terms of traditional ceremonies. 

Sir, the last matter that I would like to draw the attention of the hon. Minister and the Government to issues about sub-chiefs.  The Government must help us to understand the policy regarding the so many sub-chiefs in this country. The former hon. Minister of this ministry once said that the reason they cannot recognise sub-chiefs is that of the cost element of looking after them. That does not sound like a very convincing reason. We cannot deny people the right to traditional leadership just on account of the Government fearing to meet a certain cost. I think the Government must help us.

Sir, for example, you will find that a district such as Shang’ombo has only one senior chief and five sub-chiefs who are not recognised. What is the PF’s position on the matter of sub-chiefs? Once more, I wish to thank you for the opportunity to debate.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Kaingu (Mwandi): Mr Chairperson, thank you for giving me the opportunity to contribute to debate on policy statement which the hon. Minister of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs gave yesterday. 

Mr Chairperson, this Government has lost, yet again, another opportunity to mainstream culture into development. From the title, ‘Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs’, it shows that the focus is only on the chiefs and not the institution. The chiefdom is an institution and it embraces a lot of leadership. The chief is just a cherry on the cake. Therefore, a chiefdom is bigger. Yesterday, the hon. Minister was struggling to tell us about how the MMD was manipulating the chiefs by giving them ‘brown envelopes’.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Dr Kaingu: Sir, I want the hon. Minister to realise that, actually, her newly-found friends have quarantined chiefs in order to manipulate them. That is why the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs was actually created.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Dr Kaingu: Mr Chairperson, culture is diverse. You cannot have one formula for culture like the way the hon. Minister was talking yesterday. Culture differs. For example, in the Western Province, we have thirty-five tribes and thirty-five cultures. So, you cannot come up with one formula that you will use to administer culture. Even where you have one tribe, if that tribe is divided, with half of the tribe living near the river and other one living near the forest, their cultures will be different because the people are also influenced by the biodiversity of the area. Other than just being a doctor, I want to declare here that I am also a focal person for the Observatory of Cultural Policies in Africa (OCPA) in Zambia, which is actually a United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organisation (UNESCO) affiliated body. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kaingu: Culture has intrinsic values which we should observe and take into consideration. These are symbolic, historical, spiritual and authentic values.

Similarly, let me bring to the attention of the hon. Minister that, when it comes to heritage sites, we should not go very far in trying to identify them because this House is a heritage site and all of us have to protect, safeguard and preserve its decorum.

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!

Dr Kaingu: It is not a question of just talking about it. We must all be seen trying to protect it. If we do not protect this House, strange men will stray into this House and behave in a manner that is not part of the decorum of this House.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kaingu: If one of us stands up to protect this heritage that has been passed on to us, such a one should not be …

Hon. Opposition Member: Victimised.

Dr Kaingu: … victimised …

Laughter

Dr Kaingu: … by the system, because this House is a heritage, hon. Minister.

The Chairperson: Order, order, Hon. Kaingu!

Whatever the House does in terms of maintaining what you have rightly called decorum is based on the power which is derived from you, hon. Members of Parliament. 

Can you continue.

Dr Kaingu: The other aspect that you have to concentrate on is research. Looking at the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs’ budget, there is very little money that has been allocated for research, and yet culture is one area that needs to be researched on everyday, because it is a way of life of the people. However, if you do not research on it and, since it is dynamic, then you will be left behind.

I know that your researcher, who is Dr. Manda, and is my colleague, has tried very hard to research without being paid any money. If we look at the K80 million that you have put in your budget to try and help Dr. Manda to carry out research, that money will not help him.

It is important that you carry out research that should also look at indigenous knowledge. However, if we do not allocate money to research on it, this means that this country will be left behind. For example, the Sondashi Formula is one of the indigenous knowledge that should be researched on, and the benefits should be passed on to the people of Zambia.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Dr Kaingu: Mr Chairperson, it is in this vein that I wanted to contribute to debate on the policy statement for this wonderful ministry which has been hijacked by this Government to concentrate only on Chiefs, instead of mainstreaming culture in development. The concept that was laid on the Table yesterday will be of no use to us, if it is not properly researched on.

As I earlier said, culture cannot have only one formula for all the people of Zambia. So, there is a need to engage people to research on your behalf because we know that your ministry has only one researcher, who is Dr. Manda, and he will not be able to come up with a concept that can be used countrywide. 

With those few words, I thank you, Sir

Mr Livune (Katombola): Mr Chairperson, we need to make do with what we have. At the moment, we have the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs. I stand to support this ministry, especially that it is dealing with us, the villagers. I pity my colleagues who do not have chiefs and villages, because it is extremely important to have them.

Mr Chairperson, let me zero in to my chiefs in Kazungula District. I have Chiefs Musokotwane, Nyawa, Mukuni, Sekute and Moomba. How I wish that most of my colleagues in the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs can pay a visit to these chiefdoms. I hope Hon. Mwaliteta is not disturbing my good hon. Minister whom I expect to understand what I am lamenting about.

Sir, the roads to these chiefdoms are pathetic, and I know that this portfolio may belong to some other ministry, but let me recognise the role that the hon. Minister of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs must play to ensure that the chiefdoms are accessible.

Mr Chairperson, the roads to Chief Moomba – let me say that Hon. Mwaliteta should be able at some opportune time to inform, Professor Luo, of the terrific terrain that people are exposed to when going to this chiefdom. One needs a suitable vehicle because it is not a place that one can go to with any type of vehicle. The hon. Minister responsible should help me by ensuring that the chiefdom is easily accessible. 

Sir, not long ago, I said that chiefdoms are a tourism attraction and can play a pivotal role in social and economic development. In this regard, I was trying to persuade the hon. Minister of Tourism and Arts to see what role my Chiefs can play in the coming United Nations World Tourism Conference (UNWTC) in Livingstone.

By and large, if you like, Livingstone is the urban area of Kazungula because, before Kazungula was a district, Livingstone was actually our shopping area. You will find that the Food Reserve Agency (FRA) sheds in Livingstone cannot be filled up because there are no big farmers there. Basically, most of the big farmers are in Kazungula. Even the banks in Livingstone were, basically, servicing the people of Kazungula. So, if we talk about including chiefs in the conference activities, it is only the chiefs in Kazungula District that will be closer to the centre of activity.

Mr Chairperson, it is important that the hon. Minister who is responsible for chiefs gets involved and sees what they can do in that perspective. Furthermore, in Livingstone, at the Mukuni Palace, there are a number of activities that are carried out there. There is the Big Five Walking Safari, elephant riding and so on and so forth. It is important to see how best these activities can add value to the momentous event that will be coming to this country next year.

I, therefore, call upon the hon. Minister to pay special attention to what my chiefs in Kazungula District can do in the upcoming UNWTO conference.  

Mr Chairperson, I would also like the hon. Minister to take keen interest in Chief Musokotwane’s area. There is a special place called Muzandu, a national heritage site, which has a very important rock. The Muzandu Rocks need serious attention and it is only the hon. Minister, in conjunction with the National Heritage Conservation Commission that can ensure that this centre is given the attention it deserves as well as any other incentives that can go towards exposing the Muzandu Rocks in Kazungula District. 

Mr Chairperson, a lot of things have been said on this Vote. Admittedly, palaces need serious attention. I cannot say more than what my colleagues already said about these palaces. It is important that our chiefs’ palaces are given the due attention. 

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister praised a number of chiefs and I want to join her in doing so. However, I need to add that she should have included my chief, Chief Mukuni, the Munokalya of the Tokaleyas of Kazungula District.  This is the chief who has tamed elephants. The hon. Minister of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs will inform you that elephants saluted her when she came for the local ceremony. It was a great sight. I do not suppose that she has ever been saluted by elephants before. 

Laughter 

Mr Livune: That must have been a once-in-a life-time experience for her. This happened in Kazungula District so it is very important that she adds to their portfolio of chiefs who are doing a lot. She must include the Munokalya of the Victoria Falls, Chief Mukuni. 

Mr Chairperson, Chief Mukuni has done a lot even in issues of HIV/AIDS. He is on record spearheading such activities. He has been joined by Chief Sekute and Chief Moomba in the fight against this scourge. My chiefs in Kazungula District are very active in activities to do with national development. 

Sir, issues of succession were raised and I would like to take the debate of Hon. Belemu as my own, suffice to add that the ministry, as a parent body, should play a serious role as referee. There should be some principle in the ministry as regards to succession in the establishments. I know that the ministry cannot interfere with the nitty gritties of the clans involved, but there should be some standard of what happens when a chief dies and how to go about the process of succession. This kind of documentation should be available. I am glad that there is some allocation in the budget to deal with specific chiefdoms in terms of succession and I hope that in the near future, issues of succession will be issues of the past. 

I wish to inform the hon. Minister that in Chief Musokotwane’s establishment, there have been succession disputes for quite a long time. I hope and pray that this will come to pass because at the end of the day, the people are the ones who suffer the most. A lot of issues concerning the fact that there is no chief as well as issues of boundaries have come up. As Hon. Belemu said, there is a lot of encroachment because there is no chief. I hope that once we have a chief some of the issues will be sorted out.  

Mr Chairperson, I want to talk about boundary disputes and the much pronounced map of 1958. That map is just a sketch of some sort. It is not the final document. Many chiefs are disputing this map because therein is a saying that there are other maps before it. I am sure that the hon. Minister is in possession of those maps. Many chiefs have questioned the whereabouts of the 1932 and 1942 maps. For instance, in 1942, village A belonged to a particular chiefdom and sixteen years later, in 1958, it would be couriered to another chiefdom, creating a lot of problems. This is not right. The people who deal with boundaries must be cautious. One wise man once wrote, “Never tamper with the boundary that forefathers left. Cursed is one who does this”.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Livune: We have one current matter. Clearly the Chirundu and Itezhi-tezhi matter borders on the arrangement of tampering with boundaries. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Livune: Mr Chairperson, many people, when talking about these boundaries, will correlate those issues to these amendments. We must, therefore, be very careful when we deal with these boundaries because there is a likelihood that we may be cursed. 

Laughter 

Mr Livune: Even the surveyors must be careful because they may be cursed. 

Laughter 

Mr Livune: People are very serious about their boundaries. 

Looking at the 1932, 1942, 1958 maps, which one must we follow? Altering a boundary must be in agreement with the owners of that particular area. There will never be peace if we simply tell them that they have been couriered somewhere else. I liked it when the hon. Minister said that the developmental agenda will be pushed by these traditional leaders. However when there are boundary disputes development suffers. I seriously call upon my good hon. Minister, who is my good friend …

Laughter 

Mr Livune: Sometimes, we talk. We discussed a lot when she was hon. Minister for Local Government and Housing. She is now under the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs. We enjoyed the elephant activity together in Chief Mukuni’s area. 

Laughter 

Mr Livune: I am, therefore, hopeful that in this regard, she will help bring sanity and push the required development in the various chiefdoms. I hope that I can sit and question a few things as they come. 

I thank you, Sir.

Professor Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for this opportunity to debate.  

Sir, I would like to state, from the outset, that one of the reasons we debate policy statements coming from ministries in the House is so that we know what is behind the figures because the figures in the Budget are not mechanical. They are guided by values, principles and fundamental commitments in terms of belief regarding what our society ought to be and the developmental direction of our nation. This is the reason we debate the policy statements of our hon. Ministers when they come to the House. 

Mr Chairperson, it is extremely important that we know from the Executive the direction of our nation. Where is it going? What vision lies behind the figures they are bringing here? This is extremely important and as we debate the policy statement, it is important that all of us come to accept one reality and this is the fact that we shall not be there in 2100. This century is the last one for all of us. 

Laughter

Professor Lungwangwa: Anyone who will be there eighty-eight years from now will be totally useless to himself or herself. 

Laughter

Professor Lungwangwa: Therefore, we have an obligation to clearly state the direction of our nation. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: Where is this nation going? 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: Having said that, Mr Chairperson, I wish to mention that the policy statement that was outlined to us yesterday by the hon. Minister of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs, was of course full of very high sounding concepts, which ought to have given us hope. Unfortunately, to quote from the title of René Dumont’s book, False Start in Africa, the policy statement was an example of a false start in Africa. It is a very good example of that.

Those of us who did African Studies at the University of Zambia (UNZA) in the 1970s, know that Africa from independence was described by many scholars as a good example of development failure. At this point, we have an obligation to set the records straight and ensure that our nations are put on the right track. 

In that policy statement, there was no reference as to what type of society the PF Government is developing. What type of Zambia are we developing or establishing? There was no reference to that. Of course, there was reference to very high sounding concepts like protection of tradition, culture, values and norms, protection of indigenous knowledge, preservation of the heritage sites, involvement of the chiefs in developmental affairs of the country, rural industrialisation to the point where each chiefdom will have three industries and each village eventually will have an industry. These are extremely high sounding statements.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: However, the question is: What is the context of those high sounding concepts in terms of the type of society that we are developing? 

Mr Chairperson, there is no doubt that as a nation, we made a decision in 1991 to develop Zambia as a democracy. There is no doubt about that. I am sure we share the same thinking with our colleagues on the other side that this nation will be a democracy and we shall not go back to a one party democracy or one party dictatorship. That is foregone. Therefore, we would like to hear policy statements which tell us how Zambia is being shaped as a democracy.

Ms Siliya: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: What really would be the role of our chiefs in a democracy? What would be the role of our chiefs in the new paradigm that the world is moving towards? That is, a paradigm of a knowledge and information-driven society.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: What would be the role of our chiefs? How are we re-positioning Zambia in that context?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: If we do not do that, Mr Chairperson, we are going to fall back into the false start in Africa.

Laughter

Professor Lungwangwa: This is exactly what I am seeing and we must correct that.

Ms Siliya: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: It is our responsibility on this side of the House to ensure that what is behind the figures is in agreement with the direction of our nation.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: This is because we are not going to be there in eighty-eight years’ time.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: Therefore, we make no apology when we debate the policy statements from the Executive. We debate them without fear or favour; we debate them without any iota of optimism, especially on the part of those who are seeking jobs.

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: We must debate them because we have Zambia at heart. All of us must have Zambia at heart.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: The hon. Minister of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs has a grand opportunity of re-positioning Zambia. What will be the role of her ministry in a globalising village? This is because our traditions and culture and knowledge are being threatened by globalisation. What are we going to do as a nation to ensure that we survive in a global village? This is very important. This is what we were hoping to see and hear from the hon. Minister’s policy statement. That is why I am saying the statement, as was presented to us yesterday, does not, in any way, give us hope in terms of where we are going as a nation. 

Sir, I only hope that this ministry has not been created within the context of what our chiefs have been subjected to in the past. In the past, our chiefs, unfortunately, were agents of colonialism. That is a fact. Those who are not informed on that fact should read the history books. They were agents of slavery, not only in Zambia, but all over Africa. When, of course, independence came, chiefs have been manipulated in various forms to protect those that are in leadership. We are saying that should not be the case. Chiefs must have a slot in the type of society that we are developing and should participate in the type of society that we developing. If they have a role to play in development, then let that role be clearly outlined. This is extremely important.

I hope that the PF Government, through this ministry, will not fall in the same trap of manipulating the chiefs. I hope that what used to happen, for example, in the past, where chiefs were being given brown envelopes will not happen. 

Interruptions

Professor Lungwangwa: Let the chiefs play their role in the development process.

Now, research is extremely important and, as Hon. Dr Kaingu pointed out, what has been put here is extremely little and will not have an impact on, for example, the challenging tasks of researching on issues surrounding our indigenous knowledge. If we do not do that, then clearly, we are not going anywhere.

Therefore, it is important that even the training programmes for the chiefs that are being proposed, must be modern. Our chiefs must be brought in the modern era. They must be brought in the knowledge and information era. They must be exposed to the present challenge of seeking knowledge through the internet and information technology (IT) that is in place. That is extremely important. At the moment, Mr Chairperson, whether we like it or not, knowledge and information is the driver of transformation …

Ms Siliya: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: … in terms of individual lives and also communities and societies. If we do not do that, then the training programmes for the chiefs will not yield any fruits in terms of development.

Sir, even presidents of our own parties must be computer literate.

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: They must be IT literate.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: We should be able to communicate with them through the current information technology system that is in place. That is the only way that we shall be guaranteed of making a major leap forward in our development process. The chiefs must also be exposed to that kind of knowledge in a globalised world.

With these few remarks, Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs (Professor Luo): Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank all those who have debated my ministry. In particular, I would like to thank Hon. Professor Lungwangwa for taking us back to the University of Zambia to lecture to us in Anthropology and, much more, for becoming a bearer of an anthropological message of pessimism.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Hon. Government Member: Professor versus professor.

The Chairperson: Order! 

I can hear someone saying, ‘‘Professor versus professor’’. No, that is not the issue.

Laughter
 
Professor Luo: Mr Chairperson, the professor on the Floor is a professor of microbiology and immunology, which brings a lot of hope in the medical field. She diagnoses diseases and advises the clinicians on the treatment they should give. So, in her response, she is going to prescribe treatment.

Mr Chairperson, yesterday, I carefully gave an outline of the roles and responsibilities that have been given to my ministry. I actually said that, until the Ministry of Tourism and Arts was established, culture was part of our ministry, but it has now been taken to the other ministry. 

Sir, I would like to advise Hon. Kaingu to wait until Hon. Sylvia Masebo brings her policy debate to this House to make her policy statement on culture. The issues that he raised were never in my policy statement because the role that has been left with my ministry is to produce the products for tourism.

Mr Chairperson, somebody was surprised that what Hon. Dr Katema and I debated were similar issues, and wondered why our debates seemed to overlap into other ministries’ portfolios, specifically the ministries of Health, and Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection. Let me take this opportunity to inform this august House that, in health, there are issues that pertain to curative medicine and those of public health. My ministry, together with that of Hon. Dr Katema, has been tasked with the issues of public health. What I raised in my policy debate was about the role that chiefs, their headmen and other traditional leaders are going to play in ensuring that public health is given a centre stage.

Mr Chairperson, the issue of research has been provided for in different places of our budget. We have Chiefdom Development, Documentation of Traditions and Research. Let me also say that there is nowhere in the world where the Government gives sufficient money for research because research is expensive. I am going to challenge my research staff to join the world in raising money for research, which will be an important component of this ministry, not only in terms of documenting our traditional ceremonies, but also surveying what we do not know about.

Mr Chairperson, on conflict resolution, we have been going from chiefdom to chiefdom giving conflict-resolution skills to our chiefs. Some of the conflicts do not require the entire ministry to go and resolve. They can be handled by our people if we empower them with the relevant skills.

Mr Chairperson, when the issue of maps was brought to this august House, we are aware of the many maps that have existed, starting from 1932. We have gone to the National Archives of Zambia and are consulting the chiefs as to which of these maps are acceptable. There are the 1932, 1958 and 1959 maps. We think that the chiefs should participate in choosing which of the maps they feel comfortable with. We, as a ministry, are going to facilitate the process to make sure that we come to this august House with the right maps acceptable to the chiefs and their subjects, not we, the politicians.

Mr Chairperson, the ministry has also commenced the deployment of staff to the provinces. Therefore, some of the people who may have played a role in resolving conflicts will now be replaced by technical staff with an understanding of chieftainship and traditional issues.

Mr Chairperson, we have allocated money to start constructing chiefs’ palaces in the 2013 Budget. We are also alive to the fact that we have issues to do with our own traditions regarding what happens when a chief dies. To this effect, my ministry has decided to build two palaces per chiefdom so that, when a chief dies, the family is left with a decent home in which to live. Again, we are consulting because there are some chiefdoms, where these traditions are even deeper than in others, where it will be much more difficult even to implement the two-houses concept. Again, we will be advised by our chiefs on what the best way forward should be. The process of consultation will be continuous.

Mr Chairman, to bring hope to this House, we have raised money, even outside this Budget, to start implementing some of the programmes that I talked about in my policy statement. This weekend, I will be visiting chiefdoms in the North-Western and Western provinces to start discussing the implementation of some developmental projects using the money that we already have. So, these developments are going to be real, not mere concepts. I will prove the pessimist wrong when he starts seeing many activities in our chiefdoms. In fact, even the conflicts will become less because chiefs will be busy …

The Chairperson: Order!

Just a second, hon. Professor. During my days in the universities, one professor told me that, when professors speak, you have to remind them, sometimes, to be brief. So, Professor, continue, but be brief.

Laughter

Professor Luo: Mr Chairperson, I just needed to be a bit thorough because my colleagues needed to have a bit more information on this very important ministry. Once again, I would like to thank them very much for their contributions, and invite them to our ministry so that they understand what it is all about. I also invite them to read the concept paper. In fact, I have never heard of a professor who calls a concept useless. Professors love to read, learn and move forward. That is why we are called professors.

I thank you, Sir.

The Chairperson: Thank you. It is good to hear that from a Professor who heeds advice.

VOTE 13/01 – (Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs – Headquarters – K35,157,883,990).

Mr B. M. Mwale (Malambo): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on page 156, Programme 5000, Activity 002 – Salaries Division II – K1,300,878,852, and Programme 5001, Activity 003 – Office Administration – K1,384,000,000. What has necessitated these huge increments of over 1000 per cent and 141 per cent, respectively? 

Professor Luo: Mr Chairperson, in the 2012 Budget, the ministry had a small allocation because it had very few staff, maybe, forty. This increment has been due to the fact that we were given Treasury authority to employ more staff. So, we have quite a good increase in the number of staff, about 1,002.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Namulambe (Mpongwe): Mr Chairperson, I need clarification on page 156, Programme 5005, Activity 318 – National Museums Board – K9,400,000,000, and Activity 323 – National Heritage Conservation Commission – K6,600,000,000. Why has the former activity been provided with more funding than the National Heritage Conservation Commission (NHCC), yet the latter, in my view, does quite a lot more work?

Professor Luo: Mr Chairperson, if the hon. Member listened to my policy debate yesterday, I said that, as a ministry, we inherited huge debts, both under the National Museums Board (NMB) and the (NHCC). We actually have more debts than we are able to cover with the allocations to the two institutions. So, some of this money is meant to dismantle those debts. The variance in the allocations is because the NHCC had lesser debts than the NMB.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Dr Kazonga (Vubwi): Mr Chairperson, my first question is on page 156, Programme 5002 – Events – K585,000,000. I notice that, unlike in the heads for other ministries, Secretaries Day is missing from the list of activities under this programme. Why is that so? My second question is on page 157, Programme 5006, Activity 723 – ICCRROM –K30,000,000, and Activity 724 – ICOM – K25,000,000. For me to appreciate and endorse those proposed figures, may I know what those two budget lines are. 

Professor Luo: Mr Chairperson, if I had the opportunity to ask a question, I would ask why Dr Kazonga is always interested in Secretaries’ Days.

Laughter

The Chairperson: You have cleverly asked, but he will not answer.

Laughter

Professor Luo: Mr Chairperson, he did not specify whether his interest is in male or female secretaries.

Laughter

Professor Luo: Mr Chairperson, unfortunately, because of the ceilings that we are given, my ministry had to rationalise in terms of what comes first, and we dropped not only Secretaries’ Day, but also many other commemorations. Maybe, if we will have more money in the next Budget and Dr Kazonga makes a good case for why Secretaries’ Day should be included under that programme, and he should make sure that he is talking about male secretaries, we can bring such an activity into the Budget.

Mr Chairperson, as for his second question, our ministry sits on a number of international organisations to which we have to contribute money. In fact, the money that has been allocated is not even enough. It is important that we contribute some money to the International Centre for the Study and Restoration of Cultural Property (ICCRROM), which is an inter-governmental organisation based in Rome. In fact, recently, I was embarrassed to find that, as a country, we had not been contributing to some of these agencies.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Miyanda (Mapatizya): Mr Chairperson, I am looking at page 156, Programme 5001, Activity 019 – Transport Management – K955,000,000. This activity was allocated K1.8 billion this year, but the amount has been reduced by almost 50 per cent for next year to K955 million. Why is there this huge reduction?

Professor Luo: Mr Chairperson, again, as you heard from my policy statement, we want to do a lot more work in our chiefdoms. So, we had to rationalise our resources. It is either we allocated that money towards vehicles or the development of chiefdoms. We want to set up some micro industries at the chiefdom level so that we can start creating wealth at that level. I would have loved to have more money and allocate it to many areas.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Vote 13/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 13/02 – (Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs – Human Resources and Administration Department – K3,124,107,800).

The Chairperson: Mr …

Mr Mulomba (Magoye): Oliver Chinyama Mulomba are my names, Sir.

The Chairperson: Okay, Sir.

Laughter 

Mr Mulomba: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on page 159, Programme 5010 – Information Management, which is very important. This year, there was some money allocated for all the activities under this programme, but there is nothing for next year. Why is this so?

Professor Luo: Mr Chairperson, some of the money for those activities was already provided for under the central administration.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

Vote 13/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 13/03 – (Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs – House of Chiefs Department –  K4,605,208,422).

Dr Kazonga:  Mr Chairperson, I will be very slow so that the logic of my question can be followed.  May I have clarification on Programme 5003, Activity 038 – Orientation of Members of the House of Chiefs – K80,000,000.  This amount has made a contribution to the unit total.  May I also have clarification on page 163, Programme 5003, Activity 038 – Orientation of Members of the House of Chiefs – K80,000,000. Why should two activities, which are the same, be budgeted for separately? The codes and descriptions are exactly the same. Why should this be the case?

Secondly, may I have clarification on Programme 5064, Activity 005 – House of Chiefs Sessions – K450,000,000. In the 2012 Budget, there was an allocation of K1,921,000,000. May I know why there has been this big drop in the allocation.

Professor Luo: Mr Chairperson, the first amount of money of K80 million that has been budgeted for is the fact that prior to the Sitting of the House of Chiefs, an orientation for chiefs is conducted and we are supposed to have two sittings for the House of Chiefs. So, we assume that the expenditure for each orientation will be K80 million.

The last question regarding the drop in the amount of money that has been allocated in the 2013 Budget is because last year, we only had one sitting. Therefore, we made our cost estimates based on the expenditure that we did last year. The House is aware that this is a new ministry and, therefore, when the budget was being put together last year, we had no lessons to learn. Now, we have learnt lessons. We know exactly how much money we need.

I thank you, Sir.

The Chairperson:  Thank you, but I was about to put a question except that I forgot that there is supposed to be an amendment on that Vote. May the hon. Minister of Finance move the amendment/?

VOTE 13/03 – (Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs – House of Chiefs Department – K93,428,205,815).

The Minister of Finance (Mr Chikwanda): Mr Chairperson, I beg to move the following amendment: 

(i)Under Unit 01 Human Resources and Administration Unit, Programme: 5001 General Administration, Activity 004 Staff Welfare, by the deletion of K200,000,000; and

(ii)Under Unit 02 House of Chiefs Unit, Programme: 5003 Capacity Building, Activity 065 Staff Development, by the deletion of K105,000,000 and the substitution therefor of K305,000,000.

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

Vote 13/03, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 13/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 13/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

VOTE 17 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – K330,547,750,362).

The Minister of Foreign Affairs (Mr Lubinda): Mr Chairperson, first and foremost, I would like to thank you most sincerely for according me this opportunity to present the policy statement in support of the Estimates of Expenditure …

The Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, when business was suspended, I had just started by thanking you for according me this opportunity to present the policy statement in support of the Estimates of Expenditure for the 2013 Budget for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

Sir, before I proceed, I wish to commend the Zambia National Team for scooping the Mandela Shield.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Commendations are also due to our officers at our Mission in Pretoria for the support they rendered to the gallant football team.

Sir, before I proceed any further, permit me to seize this opportunity to congratulate the peace-loving people of Mufumbwe Constituency …

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Mr Lubinda: … on the exemplary and peaceful manner in which they conducted the recently held by-elections.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: This, Sir, is, certainly, an indication of the delicate, and yet incremental steps that our democracy is taking. May I also commend the people of Zambia for their continued trust in the PF Government …

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Lubinda: … under the leadership of President Michael Chilufya Sata …

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Mr Lubinda: … as was evidenced by the undisputable overwhelming victory scored by the PF in scooping twelve out of fourteen ward by-elections. My younger brother, Hon. Masumba, deserves a special congratulatory message on retaining the Mufumbwe seat, especially this time that he is doing it on the progressive PF ticket. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs is mandated to effectively protect Zambia’s interests abroad and to maintain good international relations in order to contribute to sustainable national development. The Ministry is the gatekeeper of Zambia’s national interests abroad and provides the channel through which the Government conducts its affairs with the international community. The basis of our existence, as a ministry, is to ensure that Zambia maintains sound bilateral and multi-lateral relations with the international community. This is a prerequisite for any meaningful development co-operation to take place and for the enhancement of trade and investment in the fulfillment of the PF Manifesto to improve the livelihoods of the Zambian people.

Mr Chairperson, the vision of the Patriotic Front Government, in the pursuit of international relations, is the protection of Zambia’s national interests abroad. This means that the Ministry of Foreign Affairs will advance the country’s national interests in order to achieve the goals and objectives of the Patriotic Front Manifesto, namely to foster prosperity for all the Zambian people and their children after them. This will be done by developing a vibrant Foreign Policy that takes into great account the strategic interest of the Zambian people. As I have mentioned in the House before, the ministry is in the process of reviewing Zambia’s Foreign Policy in a way that will extend our global and regional reach and influence in order to protect the interests of our people in the broadest sense.

Mr Chairperson, as a set of guiding principles by which the country will conduct its international relations, our Foreign Policy will reflect our core values as a people regardless of our various political affiliations. It will provide a clear set of priorities in our interactions with the rest of the world in line with our national interests. It must be said here, Mr Chairperson, that these principles will be in accord with established international conventions and practices to which Zambia is a party. 

Mr Chairperson, since coming into office, the Patriotic Front Government has sought to renew the country’s commitments in the international arena in order to maintain global and regional confidence. In this regard, the Government has, thus far, honoured various international conventions and treaties that it has signed. Furthermore, the Government continued to participate in international conferences and perform its role in maintaining regional peace and security and in fostering economic development. For instance, Zambia participated at the highest levels in the United Nations Conference on Sustainable Development, the so called Rio+20 in recognition of the importance of climate change in its impact on sustainable development and poverty alleviation. The Government also participated in the United Nations General Assembly which is the supreme world organisation for peace, security and development.

In the region, Zambia has actively participated in meetings where issues of peace, security and regional development have been deliberated on. This has been through organisations such as the Southern African Development Community (SADC), Common Market for Eastern and Southern Africa (COMESA) and the International Conference of the Great Lakes Region.

Beyond the region, Zambia has been engaged at the continental level through the various initiatives and programmes of the African Union as an indication of Zambia’s and its Government’s affirmation of the goals and objectives of this important continental organisation.

Sir, in upholding the principle of good neighbourliness, the Patriotic Front Government, since coming into power, has given attention and the highest priority to close collaboration and interaction with its neighbours. This is reflected in the decision to maintain high level contact with countries in the region. In addition, His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Michael Chilufya Sata, …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: … has, in the last one year, made State visits to Zimbabwe and Botswana. His Excellency the President has also undertaken visits to the United Kingdom, India, Switzerland, Japan and, recently, the Republic of Korea. These visits have led to increased opportunities for economic co-operation and enhanced trade and investment between Zambia and the respective countries.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Subsequent contacts with these countries have revealed the fact that interest in Zambia’s investment potential, tourism and in Zambia, generally, have increased. Over the last year, Zambia has also been honoured with visits by high level dignitaries as a sign of the confidence that the people have in the new Government of the Patriotic Front.

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Mr Livune: Question!

Hon. Government Member:Iwe, naukolwa?

Mr Lubinda: Regardless of the questions, Sir, I would like to point out that amongst the high- level visitors was the United Nations Secretary General, His Excellency Ban Ki-moon, …

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Hon. UPND member:Fya homosexual.

Mr Lubinda: His Excellency President Robert Mugabe of the Republic of Zimbabwe, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: … His Excellency President Pohamba of Namibia ...

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda:… and twice by former US President, George W. Bush.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: A visit, too, by Princess Ann of the United Kingdom …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda:… and many other high level foreign Government dignitaries. This is no doubt a sign of the fact that the international community has high regard for this country.

In further recognition of the PF Government’s leadership, His Excellency the President, Mr  Michael Chilufya Sata, was honoured with the 2012 South-South Global Governance Leadership Award by the South-South Co-operation …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Opposition members: Question!

Mr Lubinda: … on 23rd September, 2012.

The Chairperson: Order!

Just by way of guidance. ‘Question’ is one of the ways by which we doubt a statement being made. However, in this case,the hon. Minister is merely stating a fact and I do not know why we are questioning.

Laughter

Interruptions

The Chairperson: You may continue and, please, let us use these terms appropriately.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The chairperson: Hon. Lubinda may continue.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, for the sake of clarity, let me reiterate what I said.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Lubinda: In further recognition of the PF Government’s Leadership, His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Michael Chilufya Sata, …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda:…was honoured with the 2012 South South Global Governance Leadership Award 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: … by an international organisation called South-South Co-operation on 23rd September, 2012.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulenga:Ema facts,aya.

Mr Lubinda: Sir, as though this were not enough, let me rub it in by saying that, this award, he received along with other internationally acclaimed leaders like Her Excellency Ellen Johnson Sirlif. Question! This also included His Excellency Thomas Thabane of Lesotho and Her Excellency Madame Kosazana Dlamini Zuma, Chairperson of the African Union, to which all of us here belong. 

Similarly, the country continued to receive accolades of leadership from the international community when our dear founding father of the nation, the First Republican President Dr Kenneth David Kaunda, received the 2012 Mahatma Gandhi International Award for Peace and Reconciliation from the Ghandhi Development Trust. Dr Kaunda was honoured in recognition of his decades’ long work in fighting oppression in both Zambia and in the region.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: That one is correct.

Mr Lubinda: Beyond that, Sir, Dr Kenneth Kaunda has been chosen to receive the African Icon Award in the 2012 Voice Achievers Award to be held in Amsterdam in the Netherlands. This is for being a Pan-Africanist, an icon of democracy in Africa as well as a forthright leader.

Sir, as Ministry of Foreign Affairs, we take pride when our citizens are recognised internationally.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, no one but ourselves shall sing praises. It is the duty of this Government to appreciate people like Kenneth Kaunda.

Hon. Government Members: Yes!

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, It is incumbent upon all of us gathered in this House to recognise the deserved recognition of people such as Dr Kaunda.

Mr Chairperson, interactions with foreign governments from the lowest to the highest levels which the PF Government has enjoyed since coming into office have been made possible by the delicate and meticulous efforts of dedicated men and women in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs both at home and in our missions abroad. It is the ministry’s obligation to promote and sustain conducive relations with the international community without which it would not be easy to pursue our national interests and fulfil the domestic agenda for the Zambian people.

Mr Chairperson, my hon. Colleagues may wish to know that the achievements scored by the Government through this ministry in the last one year have not been without challenges. They may wish to note that Zambia’s foreign policy has not been reviewed for a long time inspite of the global changes in the international arena. This has made it difficult for the country to respond effectively and coherently to the complex issues that have come to dominate the international political and economic landscape. In many cases, Zambia has lost opportunities to advance her national interests on account of this state of affairs. Let me underscore the importance of reviewing the current foreign policy in order to unleash Zambia’s full potential on the international arena and to further Zambia’s national interests …

Ms Kalima: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: Order!

A point of order is raised.

Ms Kalima: Mr Chairperson, I rise on a very serious point of order. Is the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs speaking on behalf of Zambia, which we all belong to, in order to fail to recognise the award which was given to the former President, Rupiah Banda? He only recognised the awards which were given to President Michael Chilufya Sata and Dr Kenneth Kaunda. Is he in order to do that?

The Chairperson: Order!

I think that that point of order was clearly meant to be a nice way of debating. The hon. Minister chose who to recognise …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: Order!

Seriously speaking, you cannot force somebody to recognise everybody that you know. The hon. Minister may continue, please.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Government Member: Mwilaleta ama boyfriend muno.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, let me take advantage of that point of order to inform my hon. Colleagues and Zambians that this country owes it to itself to recognise all of its gallant men and women who are recognised on the international scene. Nonetheless, those recognitions will only be recognised by this Government if they are formalised and made known to this Government.

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, for as long as I superintend over this ministry, I will not recognise any awards that are made without the Government being informed …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: … because I run the risk of recognising awards that could be Mickey Mouse ones.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, I want to assure the Zambian people …

The Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Minister, I made a ruling and I think that you should veer off that route. Continue with your policy statement.

Interruptions

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Mr V. Mwale: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: Order!

A point of order is raised.

Interruptions

Mr V. Mwale: Mr Chairperson, I find it very hard to raise a point of order on a brother that I respect so much.

Interruptions

Mr V. Mwale: Mr Chairperson, I respect Hon. Lubinda and I say this from the bottom of my heart. However, is he in order to refer to an award that was bestowed on Rupiah Banda (RB) by Boston University as a Mickey Mouse recognition? Mr Rupiah Banda also got an award in Switzerland a month ago. He has also been recognised as leader of the missions to monitor the elections in Sierra Leone, Lesotho and the Democratic Republic of Congo. Are these Mickey Mouse recognitions? He is also heading a Carter Centre mission to different countries. Are these recognitions Mickey Mouse ones? Is my elder brother, who I respect so much, in order to relegate such recognitions to a Mickey Mouse status?

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

I think that this is were presiding officers are put on the spot. That is why I said that it is not up to us to force him to recognise all people. You seem to dispute that. I, as the presiding officer, was very careful. I did not hear him mention the name of RB. I believe by saying RB, you mean the former President, Rupiah Banda. He did not mention him. He only talked generally. Therefore, in that context, he was in order.

Hon. Minister, you may continue.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! 

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, moving forward, the ministry will re-align its strategy in accordance with the revised policy. The ministry is also in the process of re-organising its operations in order to meet current global challenges …

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

We have to be orderly.

Mr Lubinda: … as well as to serve other Government ministries and our society more efficiently and effectively. Some of the areas which the ministry believes will be critical in achieving its objectives include the use …

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Lubinda: … of modern technology …

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Why do you want to make something out of nothing? I think that you are being unruly. It is not in order to make something out of nothing. Let us give the hon. Minister the opportunity to debate. Hon. Minister, you can continue.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, the ministry will embark on the installation of a virtual private network (VPN) which is an internet-based communication system. This state of the art telecommunication network will provide a safe, secure and cost-effective means of communication between our headquarters and our missions abroad. In addition, the ministry is in the process of upgrading its cipher encryption security system in order to keep up with trends in internet security. Further, the ministry intends to develop a career foreign service in order to provide the necessary expertise for the conduct of diplomacy.

Sir, I spoke earlier about how Zambia, under the PF Government, is honouring its obligations under international conventions and treaties. In keeping with the mandate of the ministry and in accordance with international-best practices, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, during the coming year, shall establish and maintain a data base of all international agreements and treaties for easy reference and for Government follow-ups.

Mr Chairperson, regarding the opening of new missions and prioritisation and orientation of existing Zambian missions abroad, the ministry will continue to maintain and expand its presence in the international community based on the advancement of Zambia’s national interests. Therefore, the decision to open missions will be premised on ensuring that the country gains maximum benefits from her interactions.

In this regard, Sir, the Government has decided to re-open the embassy in Saudi Arabia and will be opening a new mission in South Korea. Both these missions have been carefully selected. Caution was taken to ensure that benefits of our physical presence in these capitals accrue for the country.

Sir, I also wish to add that while Zambia expands her presence abroad, other countries are also considering opening missions in Lusaka. 

Mr Chairperson, let me report to this august House that the Government of Burundi recently opened an embassy in Lusaka. The Australian Government has established an honorary consulate. There are a number of other countries that might open offices during the course of the year, 2013.

Sir, it ought to please my hon. Colleagues and all Zambians to know that Zambia’s popularity is growing tremendously. Like never before, Zambia is receiving numerous applications from Zambians and from non-Zambians alike who wish to be appointed as honorary consuls for Zambia on a pro bono basis. We all ought to be proud of this. All of us gathered here, should lead the Zambian people in working towards raising our national identity even higher.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, it is against this background that I now present the budget of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs for the year 2013. I believe this budget will enable us to achieve our intended goals. At this juncture, allow me to quickly present the highlights of the budget in accordance with the ministry’s mandate.

Sir, the budget for which I seek the support of this hon. House reflects our deliberate efforts to scale down on the cost of our operations. We are adopting cost-efficient and more effective ways of conducting our business. This includes the use of pre-paid facilities for utilities such as electricity, water and telephones. It includes the reduced consumption of fuel and reduced use of stationary while increasing the use of paperless methods of internal communication such as through local area networking and internet connectivity.

Mr Chairperson, my hon. Colleagues will, therefore, notice reductions in allocations to utilities in thirty out of thirty-seven cost centres in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. We have scaled down the allocation to utilities from K2.7 billion to K2.4 billion. This is a reduction of 11 per cent.

Sir, as a way of curbing the high number of audit queries which have characterised the reports on the Ministry of Foreign Affairs to this House, the ministry has increased the number of inspections on procurements in order to maintain close and regular scrutiny on the procedures and actual expenditure of public resources in our missions abroad. I wish, therefore, to appeal to our officers serving in the missions abroad to collaborate with the ministry in ensuring the success of these initiatives. These initiatives are beneficial to our country as they are intended to enhance our effectiveness and frugality in the running of the ministry and its functions.

Mr Chairperson, another matter which the ministry is bestowed with is the rehabilitation of infrastructure. Since independence, Zambia has acquired property in various countries for use as embassies and chanceries. However, these buildings have grown into a state of grave dilapidation, and in some cases, a state of outright disrepair due to lack of maintenance. Some of our properties abroad are a source of shame. Some of them are not habitable and, unfortunately, some of our ambassadors have resorted to renting residences.

Sir, many reports about the state of our properties abroad have been made by successive Committees of Parliament that have inspected them year in and out without any meaningful corrective measures being undertaken. 

The ministry has decided to embark on a comprehensive rehabilitation programme. Cognisant of funding limitations and the numerous national programmes competing for these limited resources, the Government has chosen to use a phased, but comprehensive approach in which funds will be disbursed to a limited number of missions each year as opposed to spreading the inadequate funds thinly over many missions. 

Mr Chairperson, this old approach as you know, meant that rehabilitation works were never fully completed. A case in point is our mission in Lubumbashi where for the year 2013, we proposed that this House approves an allocation of K2 billion as opposed to the K380 million that was allocated for the year 2012. Similarly, our mission in Brussels requests an allocation of K2.6 billion for the year 2013 as opposed to nothing provided in the year 2012. 

Sir, in addition, the ministry has paid attention to the security of our missions abroad. In this regard, the budget has provided for security awareness programmes which will ensure that our officers remain alert to the growing security risks of running missions. It will be recalled that bombings of the United States Embassies in Kenya and Tanzania as well as more recently in Libya, are important signals of the need to maintain high security around embassies at all times.

Mr Chairperson, finally, I wish to address the issue of the human resource factor in the operations of the ministry as it relates to the overall objectives of the PF Government and the fulfillment of its manifesto.

It ought to be stated here that the change of guard in missions abroad that has taken place in the last one year since the Patriotic Front (PF) Government came into office is not peculiar to the PF administration. Every Government that assumes power, be it in Zambia, Africa or anywhere else for that matter, appreciates the importance of engaging its own cadre that shares in its aspirations and zeal to deliver on its promises.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, I know that what I am saying has evoked mixed reactions from various people. However, it ought to be accepted that the change of Government entails change of much more than just the President and Cabinet. Change of Government includes change at important leadership levels such as the country’s representatives abroad.

Sir, let me assure this House that the PF Government continues to make every effort to ensure that the missions abroad are representative of the interests of the Zambian people.

Mr Chairperson, let me conclude by thanking you, this august House, Government ministries and other institutions that enable your ministry to effectively implement Zambia’s Foreign Policy. In the same vein, I wish to appeal to hon. Members of this august House for their support to your ministry’s budget for 2013, which stands at K325,547,770,389, as we endeavour to articulate and implement our mandate for the promotion of Zambia’s interests abroad.

Sir, in ensuring that we contribute to the development of a green economy, and in making it easy for our people to access the pledges of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in 2013, we have put measures to post this statement on the website of the ministry, which is www.foreignaffairs.gov.zm, by 08:00 hours tomorrow.

Mr Chairman I now invite my colleagues to graciously support the budget of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulusa (Solwezi Central): Mr Chairperson, I cannot hide my disappointment with my colleague, Hon. Lubinda’s lamentable failure to live up to the principles of diplomacy. However, I will come to that later.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulusa: Mr Chairperson, if the hon. Minister is so ignorant of the principles of diplomacy, one wonders how Zambia can contribute towards unifying mankind when it cannot do it at home. 

Sir, Ruphiah Bwezani Banda, who the hon. Minister is talking uncharitably about, is the one who made it possible for the PF to be on that side of the House peacefully today.

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulusa: He could have chosen to be a Gbagbo, but decided not to.

Hon. Opposition Member: Tell them.

Mr Mulusa: Let us build our democracy by being truthful to ourselves … 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulusa: … and praising those of us who do good.

Mr Chilangwa: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Chilangwa: Mr Chairperson, I stand on a very serious point of order. Is the hon. Member of Parliament for Solwezi Central in order to insinuate that it was Ruphiah Banda who made it possible for us to get into power when we all know that it was the Zambian people? Ruphiah Banda played no role whatsoever.

I need your serious ruling, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: Why do you want to push the Chair into politics?

Laughter

The Chairperson: I think that we are being unfair. He is expressing his opinion just as I had stated, when the hon. Minister mentioned some of those people who he felt had got awards. That was his decision. So, the hon. Member is expressing his opinion, and I think that, in all fairness, we should listen to other hon. Members’ debates. If you want to rebut what he is saying, you will have the opportunity to debate. In any case, the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs, in winding up, can address himself to issues like that. 

Can you continue, Hon. Mulusa. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! Hammer.

Mr Mulusa: Long live the Chair.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulusa: Mr Chairperson, I know that there are many people who want to debate on this matter. So, I will be as brief as possible. 

Sir, I would like to tell the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs that he is not doing his job.

Hon. Opposition Member: Yes. Tell him!

Mr Mulusa: Not only does he have to coach the Diplomats who we have posted all over the world on how they must fit in and conduct themselves when they are in foreign countries, but also manage the President. He needs to understand the cultures of the countries where the President goes and coach him appropriately. When the President goes abroad, he represents me there, and I am telling you that I am not impressed with the results that I get.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulusa: I am a laughing stock each time I travel to other countries because of the way the President conducts himself.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulusa: I would like to be an hon. Minister and have been approached by the PF, but I declined.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Laughter

Mr Mulusa: Sir, the hon. Minister is holding a portfolio that is a very good stepping stone to higher offices. As we debate, some of us ask ourselves who we think has the potential to go for the presidency. Forget about the small fights between Hon. Wynter Kabimba and Hon. G. B. Mwamba ...

Laughter

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Mulusa: You are one of those we hold in high esteem, … 

Laughter

The Chairperson: Order!

I have called for order.

Mr Mulusa: … yet you come here and fail so lamentably.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

The Chairperson: Order! 

Hon. Mulusa, you disobey the Chair at your own risk. I have the authority to curtail your debate.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: When I say, ‘order’, I should be listened to.

Hon. Government Member: Yes, Chair.

The Chairperson: So, please, do not bring in matters that are not related to the substance of this debate. 

You may continue.

Mr Mulusa: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for your fatherly advice.

Hon. Opposition Member: How does he behave when he goes out? Tell us.

Laughter

Mr Mulusa: Mr Chairperson, I am going to support the Budget, but would like the Ministry of Foreign Affairs to assist the hon. Minister of Finance in sourcing funding to assist the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry to create employment and attract investment into our country. In the past year, the PF has not lived up to that expectation. The Government has engaged in activities that scare investors away, and I would like that to change. I would also want the hon. Minister to appreciate where the MMD did right and build on the foundations laid by the MMD. For example, the PF allied itself with Taiwan while the MMD allied itself with China. However, who is the party with today?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter {mospagebreak}

Mr Mulusa: Mr Chairperson, we have just been told that every Government that comes into power has the right to appoint cadres who share in their aspirations. However, they have no right to practise mediocrity in those appointments ... 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulusa: … because the money that is paid to the people in our missions abroad is not PF money. It is Government money. Therefore, the Government needs to bring competent and well-behaved people on board. 

Sir, for the hon. Minister, who was President or Chairperson of the African Parliamentarians’ Network Against Corruption (APNAC) for so many years, to actually preside over appointments that smell of corruption is very disappointing.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulusa: I am disappointed with the way the hon. Minister is managing the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

Hon. Opposition Member: Get annoyed.

Mr Mulusa: The Government is costing this nation billions. We have clinics, hospitals and schools that we need to build, yet the PF has broken the systematic approach left behind by the United National Independence Party (UNIP) and MMD Governments. What used to happen was that the person leaving a foreign mission would swap positions with the one replacing him. Today, we have several Diplomats who are driving around and getting salaries while doing nothing. Look at the 24 per cent increment in emoluments. Where is it coming from, because civil servants already got 15 per cent? Where is the extra 9 to 10 per cent coming from? The Government is unnecessarily costing this nation a lot, but I can assure them that Zambians have woken up. They are reading and they understand these things, and the kind of punishment the PF will receive will be shocking. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulusa: Mr Chairperson, the manner in which this ministry is being managed makes it a risk to this nation, and Hon. Lubinda needs to work on that.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear! He is the best hon. Minister.

Laughter 

Mr Mulusa: Sir, I know that we need to go through the Yellow Book quickly and I will, therefore, give time to my colleagues to debate.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Chairperson, ...

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Nkombo: ... I would like to thank you for giving me the opportunity to debate. I also wish to thank my brother and friend, Hon. Given Lubinda, for his statement, although, in my view, his statement served one purpose only, and that was to mutilate diplomatic etiquette.  Hon. Lubinda, has disappointed me this afternoon.

Interruptions

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, I am disappointed because, when he spoke about the infrastructure that this Government owns abroad, I expected him to give me, in no uncertain terms, a report on the nine-story building that Zambia once owned in Maputo. This is a matter about which Hon. Lubinda would sing when he used to sit somewhere here (left). Now, he is in the comfort zone, …

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: … and has forgotten about it. Dear brother and friend, it would have been nice if you indicated, even in one word, the status of that affair. 

Sir, further, Hon. Lubinda is aware, just to dove-tail on what my brother from Solwezi said, that the portfolio that manages foreign affairs is very crucial. How I wish, in his discourse, he had taken a leaf from Hon. Pande.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Sir, I wish he had taken a leaf from the meekness and magnanimity of the past hon. Ministers of Foreign Affairs. Outside the borders of this country, Hon. Lubinda forgot the fact that there is no PF, UPND or, indeed, MMD branch. So, when we go outside the borders of this country, we are all Zambians. Some of us have made it a point that, when you send us out to represent Zambia, we make a courtesy call on the PF-appointed leaders of missions abroad. That is to demonstrate the idea of oneness. Alas, today, Mr Lubinda, a proponent, once upon a time, of togetherness and oneness, has definitely scattered himself.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, there is absolute right on the part of Government to appoint whoever it wishes to appoint to serve this country in whatever portfolio. I will give you an example. Zambians gave this PF Government the favour of running the affairs of this country and the PF Government went on rampage by dismissing all those in the foreign mission, who the hon. Minister confessed, today, are people who do not share the vision of PF. That is fair. 

Mr Kalaba interjected.

Mr Nkombo: Sir, how I wish you could protect me from the jaws of Hon. Kalaba …

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: … because I want to make a fundamental point here.

Mr Kalaba: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kalaba: Mr Chairperson, I am seated here quietly... 

Laughter

Mr Kalaba: … trying to follow the debate of Hon. Nkombo, who is completely at sea as he is debating. Is he in order to bring me into his debate, as humble as I am? 

I need your serious ruling.

Laughter

The Chairperson: Order!

I have repeatedly said that, when we are here and we let things pass, it does not mean that we are not listening. The truth is that Hon. Kalaba has been making a lot of running commentaries.

Laughter

The Chairperson: You have been caught off guard Hon. Kalaba. That does not justify what Hon. Nkombo said, but I think that you should tone down, Hon. Kalaba. 

Can the hon. Member continue.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, I am greatly indebted to you for your wise counsel to my hon. Colleague. I was in the middle of stressing the point that the PF Government or any other Government that will come in the future has got the absolute right to make use of the expertise that is available in the country in running the affairs of this country abroad, but there is no logic, and I want to stress that, absolutely no logic, in re-calling people in a blanket fashion and failing to repatriate them. 

Hon. Opposition Member: Question!

Mr Nkombo: That is English.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, it is radical thinking, in my view, because there are many people who have been re-called. They have had these letters in their offices, but the Government has failed to repatriate them. However, my substantive point is that it is fair for you to get a PF cadre to become a high commissioner in missions in, for instance, member States of the Commonwealth. It is fair to do anything political on political appointments, but where is the logic in making a blanket transfer of, for example, accountants if they have not stolen money? What is the logic of bringing back the Immigration Officers as thought they are there to issue passports for PF members? There are no PF people in foreign countries that require passports. Passports are issued here, in Zambia. 

Sir, my point is that there are professional staff who should have been allowed to work. For example, if I get my letter of re-call today, yet I still report for work one year later, what do you expect of me? How do you expect me to perform? How do I perform to the expectation of the appointing authority who has failed to bring me back home? In the meantime, we all know that diplomatic etiquette does not permit ambassadors or diplomats to engage in any other form of gainful employed as such. How do you re-call them, but fail to repatriate them? When you send salaries to the people you have failed to repatriate and the ones you have appointed, what does that do to your bill? It inflates. Then you come tubwaitubwai and tell us to approve your Budget in this House. 

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: Where is the logic? 

Sir, my last point is that I expected the training of every Patriotic Front (PF) person who is sent to a mission abroad to be mandatory. Training includes just etiquette which are the ‘dos’ and ‘don’ts.’ Let me give you a very clear example of how embarrassing it was for the hon. Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education, who is sitting over there (pointing at the hon. Minister). One day, our flights coincided as we were going to Windhoek and, when I got there, their staff displayed a Zambian flag without asking my name. I got in the car that was meant for him and went to the hotel he was supposed to go. When I got to the reception, I was welcomed as Dr. Phiri, but I later informed them that that was not my name.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: I am being serious. That happened in Namibia, and the hon. Minister probably ended up using a bus to get to his hotel. My point is that the people that you send out must be sufficiently trained to do their work. It is as simple as that. You were given the mantle by the Zambians. So, use it correctly. I tried to sit in the front, but I was advised to take the back seat.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: I asked him whether my colleague was going to join me, but I was told that no one was joining me.

Hon. Opposition Member: With a flag?

Mr Nkombo: There was no flag.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: Let me be clear that there is nothing wrong with being meek. I regretted this incident and when I later met Dr. Phiri, I apologised for the awkward situation. Hon. Lubinda, the basics should be given to your staff.

Mr Chairperson, the final point that I was trying to drive at, as a matter of fact, is that my dear colleague made several accolades while he has the right to choose what to say on my President, His Excellency, President Micheal Chilufya Sata, on how well acclaimed he is regionally, internationally and otherwise. This is a fact, and I would have been happy, if he also told us how the Botswana National Paper indicated that they had a very different taste in the President. That is a fact. In Uganda, the protocol people had difficulty trying to stop him from greeting a nonentity in the crowd.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: I am now deftly telling you what Hon. Mulusa said that it is your job, my brother and friend, to re-profile and manage the Head of State. His Honour the Vice-President once told me that, “you cannot teach an old dog new tricks”, but this is a public affair. One of the things that have improved is that my President is trying, by all means, to speak from a written speech. This was a concern that Hon. Musokotwane once raised. It does not rub on you, the PF alone, but it rubs on me as well. Let us work together to re-profile our leader. Once we achieve that, automatically, our image will also be re-profiled.

Mr Chairperson, let me urge you to go and see the video that is in the Zambian Watch Dog …

Hon. Government Members: Aah, question!

Mr Nkombo: … on-line publication, which shows how the President was arguing with the Zambian citizens in London. If you allowed me, I can play the video from my i-pad. I saw Hon. Sichinga and Hon. Lubinda, and you cannot argue with a moving picture.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: I am pleading with you, that your President is also my President. Do you understand that? He is mine, and not exclusive to you alone.

The Chairperson: Please, address the Chairperson.

Mr Nkombo: He is our President. 

Finally, as I come back to Hon. Lubinda, let me remind him that our neighbours that are across the Lake Tanganyika, have had a deliberate plan to put hon. Ministers of Foreign Affairs as Presidents in waiting, like Presidents Jakaya Kikwete and Ali Hassan Mwinyi, who were once hon. Ministers of Finance. Let me urge, Hon. Lubinda to start behaving like a President as well.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: He should also stop segregating us from our President, because that is a bad habit. I pray that Hon. Lubinda, who knows from back in the years when we belonged to the same party, that my words do not mean ill for his function. Let me put it on record that he has successfully managed to mutilate diplomatic etiquette. I rest my case.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Namulambe (Mpongwe): Mr Chairperson, as I start my debate, may I request my dear cousin, the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs …

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Namulambe: … to be sober minded as he listens to my contribution to his policy statement. Indeed, when he is upset, even his face changes …

Laughter

Mr Namulambe: … and people get scared, especially my children.

Laughter

The Chairperson: Order, Hon. Namulambe!

Can you discuss the policy statement and not the hon. Minister.

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, this ministry is very important, because the people that we send out of Zambia represent us and, indeed, are torch bearers for all the Zambians. It is for this reason that I would like to request the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs to ensure that the Institute of Diplomacy and International Studies is improved. We, as the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD), had plans to make it a regional institute, where people could go and train in diplomacy. 

As such, when you are sending people to work abroad, let these people be trained properly. The curriculum for the institute must be made in such a way that if a person fails to pass an examination, he/she must not be sent into Foreign Service, because these are the people that are going to bring shame on all of us. We expect career diplomats to serve us in the missions abroad. We have very important missions like Brussels, London, Addis Ababa, Washington and New York where we need to send people who are properly trained and qualified. 

This system of sending cadres as a way of thanking them will destroy our image abroad. As such, we ought to send people that are sober minded, properly trained and who are career diplomats. Let me urge the hon. Minister, whom I did not hear talk about the Institute of Diplomacy and International Studies, to improve on this institution, so that the people that we send there can be properly trained.

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister talked about reviewing our Foreign Policy. Last year, we heard that the MMD had no foreign policy. 

Laughter 

Mr Namulambe: I, therefore, wonder what policy they will be reviewing if there was none under which the MMD Government operated. I am, however, glad that in this year’s Budget, there is a provision of K23 million to review our Foreign Policy. I am sure that it will better our relations with other countries. 

Mr Chairperson, we hear from people that are still serving in the Government that thePF Government has sent a lot of people into Foreign Service than it ought to, without the knowledge of the Treasury. Certain positions have been created without the knowledge of the Treasury. I think that it is high time we did things correctly. This issue of creating jobs in an effort to please cadres without following proper procedure is not correct. 

Interruptions

Mr Namulambe: Debating from your seats because you cannot debate on the Floor will not work. We used to do it. The best thing that you can do, if you are people who want to do the right thing, is improve upon what was being done wrongly. Do not debate from the seats. Stand up and debate. 

Laughter 

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, there is very little I have heard from the hon. Minister concerning what Zambia is doing abroad, apart from the visits undertaken and  the awards we heard about. I have not heard much of what this country has benefited from the countries that we are represented in. I concur with him that we must open missions abroad that are beneficial to us, as a country. There are certain missions abroad where we do not benefit anything, and I want to encourage him to close down these in order to save some resources for other developmental issues. 

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister talked about rehabilitation of certain properties abroad. I have in mind some houses in our Zimbabwean Mission, where the establishment is far less than the number of houses for staff. I would have loved to hear from him what plans the Government has for the excess property that we have abroad. 

We should have heard from him the Government’s intentions because some of those houses, due to certain diplomatic etiquette, are not supposed to be rented out on a commercial basis. The people who are living therein are caretakers. Should we, however, continue to send money to rehabilitate such properties which we cannot make use of? I think that there should be ways and means in which we should be able to make use of such property. 

My advice would be to transfer such property to some ministry which can own them, on behalf of the Zambian Government of course, so that the country can earn some revenue in the form of rentals charged at commercial rates, as opposed to simply keeping them on caretaker basis by some people who are benefitting by staying there.

Mr Chairperson, the other point I want to make is related to protocol. The people in the Protocol Department are not doing their work properly. I did not want to mention this, but there are some people who have served as chief protocol officers for years, and I am sure that they get disappointed with the confusion which is now at State functions. 

 I think that you need to re-organise the department in charge of protocol. There is something definitely wrong there. Sometimes, even the hon. Ministers do not know where they are supposed to stand or what they are supposed to do. This is because State protocol has broken down. I would like to urge the hon. Minister to ensure that this department gets re-organised. Sometimes, it is important to listen. 

Mr Lubinda interjected.

Mr Namulambe: Hon. Lubinda, I am talking. 

Laughter 

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, I am sorry. 

Sir, it is important to listen and take into account the advice that we give because it is for the good of the nation. It will happen that one day we receive a head of state from another country and with State protocol broken down, we will be very embarrassed, as a nation. I, therefore, want to urge the hon. Minister to ensure that he re-organises the Protocol Department. 

With these few words, Sir, I thank you. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kakoma (Zambezi West): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Vote of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. I will be very brief because a lot of my ideas have already been debated by my colleagues. I would like to adopt the debates of Hon. Mulusa and Hon. Nkombo, as my own.  I wish to add to those debates two or three items.

Mr Chairperson, the Foreign Service is supposed to be very important for the Government of the Republic of Zambia. In our Foreign Policy, we have been advocating for economic diplomacy and intending to do away with political diplomacy. What is happening now is that we are doing away with both of these policies. 

I have heard His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia, at a swearing-in ceremony, advising diplomats that he is sending them away to go and rest. 

Laughter 

Mr Kakoma: Mr Chairperson, I found this to be very unjustifiable and belittling to the Foreign Service. 

Mr Mweetwa: It is actually shocking!

Mr Kakoma: Diplomats should not go out to rest as if they are on holiday. They are going out there to work. If this is the attitude of the PF Government, it is no wonder we are seeing a situation where the Government is sending into the diplomatic service PF cadres who were election failures in 2011.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kakoma: Not only are they rewarding them, they are also telling them to go on holiday and rest. 

Laughter 

Mr Kakoma: We expect diplomats that are going in foreign missions to go and attract investments as well as market Zambia, and not to go and rest. We have seen this situation,which Hon. Lubinda should have changed, where people that have been rejected in an election are finding themselves with Government jobs, again, in the Foreign Service. If someone is a reject, then he/she is a reject. Why should he/she be given a job in the Foreign Service to go on holiday and rest? 

Sir, we have also seen a situation where, for the first time in the history of this country, a lot of diplomats being recalled just because some of them have wrong surnames.

Hon. Government Members: No!

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kakoma: Yes!

Mr Livune: Hanjika!

Mr Kakoma: A lot of people are complaining that a lot of diplomats have been recalled either because they come from a certain tribe or a certain region.

Interruptions

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

Mr Kambwili: Tribalism is all you know!

Mr Kakoma: At the same time …

Hon. Kambwili, I can challenge you to …

The Chairperson: Order!

I think that I have had enough. Can I ask Hon. Kambwili to go in the corridor until the hon. Member on the Floor has finished speaking.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: Hon. Minister can you go to the veranda. You will come back after Hon. Kakoma has finished debating.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mr Kambwili left the Assembly Chamber.

Mr Hamududu: That was good, Charles!

Ms Kalima: Shame!

The Chairperson: Order!

There is nothing shameful about my instruction. I am just maintaining law and order.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! Long live the Chair!

The Chairperson: Can Hon. Kakoma continue, please.

Mr Kakoma: Sir, in the past, apart from diplomats being sent in the Foreign Service on merit, the Government also used to look at the issue of balancing. There is no way you can have people coming from one region or tribe dominating the Foreign Service. That is a wrong way of doing things.

Mr Livune: Shame!

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kakoma: Sir, such actions are actually dividing the nation. We are hearing complaints from the areas where we come from that all their sons and daughters that were posted in the Foreign Service have been recalled. What, then, should happen to these people whose sons and daughters have been re-called from the Foreign Service? 

For the first time, Mr Chairperson, we are having a situation where children of leaders, such as hon. Ministers, are being favoured to go into the Diplomatic Service. I think that if you are an hon. Minister with a good conscience, you cannot be fighting for your daughter or son to go and head a diplomatic mission …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kakoma: … or to go and be a first or second secretary. How can one family dominate leadership?

Sir, I would like the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs to recommend to Cabinet or the President to appoint a commission of inquiry to investigate appointments in the Foreign Service so that our suspicions are cleared. If people have been misled and their suspicions are not correct, the commission of inquiry will be able to bring out that information. The commission should be able to tell us who is who in the Foreign Service. If my thinking is wrong, you will prove that. If the thinking of the majority of the people is wrong, you will prove that.

Mr Monde: It is correct, Sir!

Mr Kakoma: Secondly, Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs should be able to explain to me and the Zambian people why all of a sudden, Zambia as a country, is being placed on a list of countries where there are terrorists. 

The United States of America (USA) recently issued an alert to all its citizens travelling to Zambia about a terrorist threat. The hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs should be able to tell this House and the nation what this terrorist threat is all about. It is putting Zambians in an awkward situation. The many Zambians that are travelling are being subjected to unnecessary scrutiny. I have been travelling also out of the country since that terrorist alert was issued and I have been treated as a suspected terrorist.

Hon. Government Member: You look like one!

Laughter

Mr Kakoma: I am subjected to a lot of scrutiny. I am looked at with suspicion. Sometimes, at airports, some officers tell me to stand in a certain position and take pictures which they scan in their system. Surely, why are we being suspected of being terrorists?

Hon. Government Member: Ukepushe ba wiso!

Laughter

Mr Kakoma: Mr Chairperson, we must be careful in the way we conduct our foreign affairs because some of these things are spilling to our conduct …

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Please, consult quietly so that he can make his points in a manner which we can hear them. 

Can you please, continue.

Mr Kakoma: Some of these problems are arising from the way we conduct our foreign affairs. The choice of friends that we are making on the international scene is creating some of the problems which we are facing. If President Michael Chilufya Sata chooses President Al Bashir of Sudan as one of his best friends in Africa when he is wanted by the International Court of Justice, and Sudan is suspected to be a terrorist nation …

The Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Members, I have constantly advised that we have to be careful in the manner in which we debate issues and I am saying so as a former diplomat. I think that we have to be very careful with what we say. I would rather you spoke in a general manner without mentioning names. I would have no problem if you said, “The President moves with people who are  … .” You can bring out certain points without mentioning names. That is proper diplomacy.

Can you, please continue.

Mr Kakoma: Thank you, Mr Chairperson for your wise counsel. 

Zambia should know how to choose its friends on the international scene if it is to be respected in a manner which will make it possible for it to gain a lot of benefits from the international community. If we choose to befriend a country which is suspected to be a terrorist threat to the world, we shall also be suspected to be a terrorist country. As the adage goes, “Birds of the same feather flock together.”

Sir, why should Zambia choose friends that are controversial in Africa? I have in mind the President of Zimbabwe whom I will not name …

Laughter

The Chairperson: Order!

Laughter

The Chairperson: You are doing exactly what I advised against. 

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Let us really avoid that.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Actually, I am saying it with genuineness. Let us avoid that kind of thing. It has terrible repercussions. What you are saying today might be interpreted differently tomorrow by our neighbouring countries. I would rather you just say neighbouring countries without being specific. 

Laughter

The Chairperson: Can you continue and, please, veer off that line.

Hon. Government Members: Withdraw!

Mr Kakoma: I thank you, Mr Chairperson. I am concerned as an hon. Member of Parliament in Zambia that our President has chosen to befriend a president of a neighbouring country …

Laughter

Mr Kakoma: … who is very controversial.

Laughter 

Mr Livune: And old!

Mr Kakoma: We are getting closer to him and some of the things which we are developing in Zambia can be attributed to that friendship.

Laughter

Mr Kakoma: Mr Chairperson, we are beginning to see dictatorship emerging in Zambia since our President has decided to befriend or associate with president in a neighbouring country who is seen to be a dictator.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kakoma: Sir, our President is drawing from the tactics of that dictator on how to enforce things such as the Public Order Act.

Laughter

Mr Kakoma: That president from a neighbouring country has been ruthless to the Opposition. He has been arresting members of the Opposition. Those are the type of friends that our President wants to associate with.

Laughter

Mr Kakoma: We are worried that even when we are taking time to consult over the Freedom of Information Bill, in this neighbouring country, they have a Freedom of Information Act, which is actually used to oppress the media and opponents. That is probably the only reason even the Freedom of Information Bill is taking long to come to Parliament, because they want to consult. Who do they want to consult because in Zambia they have over consulted already? The only people remaining to be consulted are the neighbours.

Laughter

Mr Kakoma: Those neighbours are going to tell us to come up with the Freedom of Information Act, which is going to make the situation worse than it is now. Mr Chairperson, I would like to stop here.

I thank, you Sir.

Mr Kambwili entered the Assembly Chamber.

Hon. Opposition Member: Kambwili, why are you back?

The Chairperson: Order!

Why is he back? I said he should come after Hon. Kakoma had finished his debate. So, he is in order. Please, let us not push that issue too far.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank the four hon. Colleagues who contributed to the debate on the budget of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Let me state from the outset that, those who seek equity should go with clean hands.

Sir, I would like to recognise the personal attacks on me by the various hon. Colleagues who, in a very special way were trying to show that they understand diplomatic etiquette better than I do. I repeat that those who seek equity should come with clean hands.

Mr Chairperson, Hon. Mulusa lamented that I failed him today, to maintain the principles of diplomacy. I suppose it is because I did not mention former President Rupiah Banda as having received awards. As all hon. Members of this House will be aware, whatever we say is on record. I would like to appeal to my friend, Hon. Mulusa to be patient and to consult the Hansard when it is ready. He will then see, in the same manner that my younger brother, Hon. Vincent Mwale, and my good friend, Hon. Nkombo, will be able to see that nowhere in my statement …

The Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Minister, let me correct you. You remember that when that issue was being talked about, I ruled that I did not hear you make reference to the person they had referred to, who is Mr Rupiah Banda. So, I ruled that they were out of order. In the same vein, since I made that ruling, proceed to your next subject.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, thank you for making it very clear. Let me just comment on some of the pertinent issues that my colleagues have raised. I would like to start by talking about Hon. Mulusa’s accusation that we are corrupt. Let me request that as he makes such allegations, he must be aware of the fact that he has recourse, through this House, to raise questions on the Floor of the House and, indeed, to report to the Anti- Corruption Commission (ACC), in the event that he suspects that there are any people who have been appointed to the Foreign Service corruptly. He should not come and use the House to, in a blanket manner, state that the appointments in the Foreign Service were corruptly awarded. 

Mr Chairperson, let me now talk about the question Hon. Mulusa raised regarding the alleged 24 per cent increase in salaries at headquarters. I would like to inform him that it is actually a 35 per cent increase and that the increase was not motivated by the reasons he was giving. The 35 per cent increase on salaries at headquarters is as a result of a number of factors including the fact that if he looks at our request for funding for Rome, he will see that there is no provision for salaries there because those salaries have been provided for at headquarters. That is the reason for that exponential increase. It has nothing whatsoever to do with any other reason.

Mr Chairperson, Hon. Nkombo asked a question about the multi-storey structure in Maputo. Let me now give Hon. Nkombo and all my hon. Colleagues the full details about the house in Maputo. That property was offered to the Republic of Zambia many years ago, soon after the independence of Mozambique. Unfortunately, those who were charged with the responsibility to superintend over the affairs of this country failed to acquire possession of that property. Over this period, the Government of Mozambique decided to withdraw the offer of that property. That was long before the PF was even formed.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

You know, that is where we complicate things out of nothing. When Hon. Nkombo was speaking very nicely, I saw Hon. Lubinda listening attentively. Sadly, now that Hon. Lubinda is  responding, some hon. Members have started mentioning all sorts of names. I think we are not observing the decorum of the House.

Hon. Nkombo lifted his finger.

Mr Chairperson: Yes I know, Hon. Nkombo, your finger is pointing to where I am actually driving to. So, watch it.

Hon. Minister, please continue.

Laughter

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, I would like to assure the nation that this responsible Government is pursuing that matter with our friendly neighbour, Mozambique, because we think that the offer to Zambia was in recognition of its contribution to the liberation struggle for the people of Mozambique.

The Chairperson: I want to sieze the opportunity to now explain why I have been saying do not mention names of countries. You might wonder why I have not said anything regarding Hon. Lubinda’s mentioning of Mozambique. That is what I want to clarify. When you are speaking about any country negatively, then that is a problem, but if you are speaking positively, that is not a problem. Continue hon. Minister.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, Hon. Nkombo, when he was not talking about my personality also spoke about some fundamental issue, which I will respond to. I will leave the personality issues to him. I will let the Zambian people be the judges. He spoke about the repatriation of the recalled diplomats. Let me allay his fears by informing him that almost all diplomats who have been recalled have since been repatriated. There are some who are still in missions abroad despite their repatriation monies having been sent. Hon. Colleagues, you will notice that the allocation that we are asking for, for recalls in the Yellow Book has actually reduced from that which we asked for in 2012. This is in recognition of the fact that, the exercise is soon coming to an end. So, please, rest your fears.

Mr Chairperson, I did mention that everywhere in the world, including in the most advanced of democracies, when there is a change of Government, the change is not only of the President and Cabinet, but a change of guard at all important positions of leadership. How else would we deliver on our promises if we do not carry along the people with whom we share the vision and dreams for our people?

Interruptions

Mr Lubinda: Sir, I also want to add that some of those who have been re-called, if Hon. Kakoma would like me to answer his question, unfortunately, are people who have outlived their usefulness in the missions abroad.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Lubinda: Sir, you cannot claim to be a diplomat of a country when you have been out of that country for as long as fifteen years. How could you possibly say that you are representing a country that you left fifteen years ago? This is the reason some of those junior officers, for Hon. Nkombo’s information, were re-called. They have been in the diplomatic service or outside this country and in one station for more than ten years. They have ceased to be Zambians and become nationals of other countries. Naturally, we have to bring them back.

Sir, even in countries where career diplomacy is practised, the duration of posting or tour of duty is no longer than four years. Why should it be different here? So, some of the people we have re-called, hon. colleagues, have over-stayed their tenure.

Sir, I was asked why I did not comment on a certain article in a Botswana national paper. Not too long ago, we heard in this House that newspaper articles are hearsay. So, I will not comment on hearsay. I will leave that to those who want to concentrate on gossip. As for me, my responsibility is to inform this House, and through it the nation, on Government policy and matters brought to the attention of the Government. Everything that is hearsay, I will leave to gossipers.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Sir, I was asked to stop segregating …

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

I am not sure whether Hon. Kapata has decided to sit at the back in order for her to do what she is doing. I think that you had better come here or stop doing what you are doing.

Can the hon. Minister continue.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order! 

Mr Lubinda: Sir, Hon. Namulambe also found it fitting to talk about me and how I scare his children. I will not …

Laughter

The Chairperson: Order! 

I ruled him out of order. 

Mr Lubinda: Thank you very much, Sir.

Sir, he made reference to a statement that was made last year in this House to the effect that the MMD did not have a foreign policy. I wish he had mentioned who he was quoting because, if it was me that he was quoting, I did mention, not too long ago, when we were debating the President’s Address to this House, that we were reviewing the MMD foreign policy. So, if Hon. Namulambe wishes to add to that review, I will leave it up to him. 

Sir, let me also assure him that there is no possibility for the Government to pay salaries to any person who is employed without Treasury authority. Therefore, again, I would like to appeal to my dear colleagues in the House not to use this House to trade in insincerities because the truth of the matter is that all those who have been posted were posted on Treasury authority.

Sir, he asked why I did not talk about what our missions abroad are doing. I am afraid that I could not enumerate everything that our missions are doing because I believe, and seriously so, that every hon. colleague in this House has a very clear understanding of why countries have missions abroad. However, in case my dear friend, Hon. Namulambe wishes, I am available to offer free lectures to him. He asked what we are doing with the excess accommodation in Zimbabwe. Again, I am not able to talk about every little thing in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Hon. Namulambe can put forward a question for oral answer. After all, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs is starved of questions for oral answer. So, please, let him put a question and I will provide an adequate answer.

Sir, I wish to advise Hon. Kakoma that there is no need, whatsoever, for him to think about setting up a commission of inquiry on his perceived tribalism in our appointments to missions abroad. All he has to do, too, is ask a question in this House and we will present the facts as they are. However, I agree with him on how frustrating it is for us Zambians to be treated as terrorists when we travel. In my policy statement, I beseeched all of us in this House and all Zambians to work together in raising the identity and pride of our country. We owe it to ourselves. Now, what do you expect the international community to think of us when we, gathered in this House, and those of us who hold positions of leadership in our country, go round making wild allegations and innuendoes about how we are sending people for training as militia?

Hon. UPND Members: Question!

Mr Lubinda: Sir, it is those same statements that reflect poorly on us. That is the reason I appeal to all of us to be responsible. If, in this same House, we are accusing each other of trading or relating with controversial people, then, we should also expect the international community to consider us in that very light.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Lubinda: Sir, it is a mark of a serious lack of patriotism …

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Mr Lubinda: … to make innuendoes and allegations of such magnitude. Why cast aspersions against yourselves that reflect poorly on you?

Sir, let me end by saying that we are using our foreign relations to foster peace and security in our country and leverage our peaceful nature to foster peace and security in the region. We do not believe in isolating any particular nation. What we believe in is being all-embracing so that our good nature can rub off onto those who are perceived to bad leaders.

Sir, in conclusion, I would like to, once again, appeal to my hon. colleagues to support the Vote of this ministry because its functions cut across the political divide. they are meant to server this country. Together, not in segregation, we will build a better image of ourselves.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 17/01 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Headquarters – K14,350,796,417).

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Habeenzu (Chikankata): Mr Chairperson, I am looking at page 313, Programme 3000, Activity 006 – Salaries - Super Scale K209,832,300. There was no allocation in 2012 for this activity, but there is that amount for next year. What is this money for and what is meant by ‘super scale’?

The Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs (Dr Lungu): Mr Chairperson, this is a new activity whose provision is required to meet the cost of paying super scale salaries. Its introduction is due to the 15 per cent salary increase for public workers and, in some cases, staff promotions.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

The Deputy Chairperson: When business was suspended, the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs had just answered question on a point of clarification asked by the hon. Member for Chikankata, Mr Habeenzu.

Is there any further debate?

Dr Kazonga (Vubwi): Mr Chairperson, on Page 313 …

Ms Siliya: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Ms Siliya: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. I apologise for disturbing the hon. Member for Vubwi, Dr Kazonga. He is very enthusiastic about this budget. 

Earlier in the week, Mr Chairperson, when the hon. Deputy Minister of Home Affairs acknowledged the defect in this Budget, forcing the hon. Minister of Finance to give a statement, we agreed, I believe, as a House, that the matter of staff welfare was going to be standardised because the Government had decided to remove it from the budget and that, where it appeared, the Executive was going to bring amendments, at least, in the Ministry of Home Affairs. This is why that budget was deferred until the amendments were brought forward. 

Sir, I am concerned about the Ministry of Foreign Affairs Budget, particularly on page 314, Programme 3102, Activity 009 - Staff Welfare and Recreation - K44,337,414. In line with what the hon. Minister of Finance said, and in trying to standardise the Budget, I am concerned what will happen when we come to that activity and how we will approve this budget for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs without the amendment. Unless I am mistaken, I have not seen, among the amendments that have been brought forward, today, the one for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. So, it is in that sense that I ask if we are in order to continue to consider this Budget without those proposed amendments as we agreed with the hon. Minister of Finance.

The Deputy Chairperson: Which programme and activity are you specifically referring to? 

Ms Siliya: Sir, it is on Page 314, Programme 3102 – General Public Affairs – Activity 009 – Staff Welfare and Recreation K44,337,414. I rise on a point of procedure.

The Deputy Chairperson: My ruling is that we proceed. When we come to that, you will raise the point and the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs will be requested to respond.

The hon. Member for Vubwi may continue.

Dr Kazonga: Thank you very much for allowing me to continue. Under Programme 3002 – Events - K670,904,322, I have observed that the Public Service Day and Secretaries’ Day celebrations are missing. Why is that so? 

Interruptions

Dr Kazonga: Secondly, under Programme 3008, Activity 001 – Gender Mainstreaming, there is a provision of K11,194,792 this year, but nothing for next year. May I know why there is no provision for this activity?

Dr Lungu: Mr Chairperson, I will start by answering the second question, which has to do with gender mainstreaming. This activity has shifted to Page 316, Programme 3018, Activity 720 – Gender Mainstreaming - K9,828,861. Secondly, this programme has been taken care of under General Administration.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on page 314, Programme 3102, Activity 009 – Staff Welfare and Recreation – K44,337,414.  As per your advice, I want to raise this issue of staff welfare and recreation, which has been provided for under the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, taking into account our collective wisdom in our decision to have these matters amended. What is the position of the hon. Minister of Finance on this particular issue?

Dr Lungu: Mr Chairperson, we run clubs and sporting activities, as a ministry. So, that line highlighted as Staff Welfare and Recreation is meant more for running clubs and sporting activities, not necessarily welfare. However, our employees participate in these activities.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Kalila (Lukulu East): Mr Chairperson, I need clarification on page 315, Programme 9002, Activity 711 – Consultative Meetings - K20,335,575. What is this provision all about, since we are aware that this whole idea of career diplomacy was, I think, abandoned some time back?

Dr Lungu: Mr Chairperson, this activity has never been abandoned. We are actually strengthening it. This is a new activity whose provision is required to meet the cost of hosting consultative meetings in order to exchange views with stakeholders on the establishment of a career diplomatic service.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, …

Hon. Member:Hallelujah!

Laughter

Mr Nkombo:Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3000, Activity 006 – Salaries – Super Scale – K209,832,300. This is a concern that was earlier raised by my colleague, the hon. Member of Parliament for Chikankata, to seek some light surrounding the salaries in the Super Scale. In his question, he asked the hon. Minister to elaborate why there was nothing this year, but K209,832,300 next year. In response, the hon. Minister indicated that it is a new activity. He further indicated that the increment is as a result of the Super Scale activity. In asking my question, I want to be a bit graphic.

Mr Nkombo lifted one empty bottle and one bottle of mineral water.

Mr Nkombo: If a bottle like this one, which is empty, is given some content from this (bottle with water) into there (empty bottle), there is no increment, but an introduction. 

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: However, if I put some more water in this half empty bottle, there is an increment. Could you, please, be a bit clearer, Hon. Dr Lungu, on what you meant when you said that the increment had been precipitated by a new activity?

Thank you, Sir.

Laughter

Dr Lungu: This is a super scale targeting Permanent Secretaries and high officials in the ministry. It is an increment because it cuts above the lower ranks. That is why it has become an increment and labeled a new activity. People have just been promoted into higher scales. That is what we have budgeted for.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Siliya(Petauke): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on programme 3102, Activity 009 – Staff Welfare and Recreation K44,337,414. The hon. Minister explained that we should take this allocation as concentrating on recreation. I think we are here to discuss very important matters, as a House, using collective wisdom. The hon. Minister of Finance was magnanimous enough to propose that there will be amendments to the Budget for Home Affairs over the same matter. How are we going to ignore the first two words ‘Staff Welfare’ and only consider ‘Recreation’. We have been properly told, in this House, that Staff Welfare matters have been taken to Loans and Investment. It will be the right and orderly thing for us to have an amendment on this one even if it is to change the nomenclature so that there is no staff welfare.We cannot take it that staff welfare is there, but just ignore it. This matter was already discussed and we made a decision, as a House. 

Thank you, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: May the hon. Minister of Finance clarify this matter?

The Minister of Finance (Mr Chikwanda): Mr Chairperson, I do not want to make unsystematic clarifications. You cannot inter-relate everything. What was applicable to the province is not applicable to the ministry under discussion. I am constrained to go beyond that.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Mufalali(Senanga): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3102,Activity 009 – Staff Welfare and Recreation K44,337,414. We were told, in this House, by the hon. Minister that staff welfare included recreation. Why, under this Head for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, should we continue with a K44,337,414 allocation for recreation when other ministries are not getting this?

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, firstly, let me say that there is nowhere where staff welfare and recreation is defined as loans and advances. Secondly, I would like to draw the attention of the hon. Members to the fact that for the Vote entitled Staff Welfare and Recreation in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, there has been a reduction of K161,617,397 in keeping with the policy of Government that staff loans and advances shall be handled centrally and not by different ministries and spending agencies. The reserve of K44,337,414, in this ministry, is specifically meant for the welfare of staff and  recreation which my deputy referred to as sports clubs and so on and so forth. The other ministries have allocated money for such purposes in other votes and not necessarily staff welfare and recreation. I would like to make it abundantly clear that in this ministry, like all other ministries, the amounts meant for advances and loans, which the hon. Minister of Finance referred to yesterday, have been taken away and are now going to be handled centrally.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr L. Zimba(Kapiri-Mposhi): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3007, Activity 003 – Outstanding Bills – K350,000,000. There was no provision in this year’s Budget for this Vote, but K350,000,000 this year. How come this figure has made a sudden and huge jump?

Thank you, Sir.

Dr Lungu: This is a new activity required to meet the cost of dismantling of outstanding bills. There was no provision for outstanding bills as they were dealt with under Human Resource under Office Administration.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Kakoma: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3102, Activity 009 – Staff Welfare and Recreation – KK44,337,414. This activity, if approved the way it is without amending the wording, will imply that the staff in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs are entitled to this money under staff welfare and will apply for it and the accountant in the ministry will say that since it was approved by Parliament, I will approve and give it out. What is so difficult about the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs or Finance moving an amendment to change even the nomenclature so that it is clear? Money matters are very difficult. Everything must be clear. What is difficult about moving an amendment tomorrow or the other day?

Thank you, Sir.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Lubinda: Sir, I would like to assure the hon. Member that staff in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs cannot be misguided by the term staff welfare to mean staff advances or loans. Further, let me also clarify that the Government operates on the basis of policies. There is a policy that cuts across all Government ministries and spending agencies with regard to the management of loans and advances. 

Therefore, even if a member of staff in the ministry was to be misguided by the nomenclature, the administration in the ministry will guide him adequately by referring to the fact that the K44,337,414 that will appear in the Budget, once this House approves it, is not meant for loans and advances, but recreation in the form of sports and others. I would like to allay the fears of my colleague by saying that there will be no such misunderstanding whatsoever. Hon. Kakoma has been in this House for as long as I have, and we have never amended the nomenclature of a Vote.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members called for a division.

Question that Vote 17/01 – Ministry of Foreign Affairs Headquarters – K14,350,796,417 be amended put and the House voted.

Ayes – (66)

Mr C. R. Banda
Mrs E. M. Banda
Mr N. Banda
Mr Bwalya
Mr Chabala
Col Chanda
Mr Chansa
Mr Chenda
Dr Chikusu
Mr Chikwanda
Mr Chilangwa
Mr Chisala
Mr Chishimba
Mr S. Chungu
Mrs Kabanshi
Mr Kabimba
Mr Kalaba
Mr Kambwili
Mr Kampyongo
Ms Kansembe
Ms Kapata
Mr Kapeya
Mr Kapyanga
Dr Kasonde
Dr Katema
Col Kaunda
Mr Kazabu
Mrs Kazunga
Mr Kosamu
Mr Kufuna
Ms Limata
Mr Lubinda
Dr E. Lungu
Mr E. C. Lungu
Col J. Lungu
Prof Luo
Mr Malama Mwimba
Mr Masumba
Mr Matafwali
Mr Mbulu
Mr Mpundu
Mr Mubukwanu
Mr Muchima
Mr Mukanga
Mr Mulenga
Mr Mushanga
Mr Musukwa
Dr Mwali
Mr Mwaliteta
Mrs Mwamba
Mr Mwango
Mr Mwenya
Mr Mwewa
Mr P. Ngoma
Mr Ngo’nga
Mr D. Phiri
Dr J. T. N. Phiri
Mr Sakeni
Mr Sampa
Dr Scott
Mr Sichinga
Mr Sichone
Mr Sichula
Mr Sikazwe
Dr Simyakula
Prof Wilombe
Mr J. Zimba

Noes – (49)

Mr Antonio
Mr I. Banda
Mr Belemu
Mr Chingimbu
Mr Chipungu
Mr Chisanga
Mr Chishiba
Mr Habeenzu
Mr Hamududu
Mr Kakoma
Dr Kalila
Ms Kalima
Mr Katambo
Dr Kazonga
Mr Kunda
Mr Livune
Mr Lufuma
Prof Lungwangwa
Mr Malama Mushili
Mrs Mazoka
Mr Mbulakulima
Mr Milambo
Mr Miyanda
Mr Miyutu
Mr Monde
Mr Mooya
Mr Mufalali
Mr Mulomba
Mr Mulusa
Mr Muntanga
Dr Musokotwane
Mr M. Mutale
Mr Mutati
Mr Mutelo
Mr M. Mwale
Mr V. Mwale
Mr Mweetwa
Mr Mwiimbu
Mr Namulambe
Mr Ndalamei
Mr Njeulu
Mr Nkombo
Mr Siamunene
Mr Sianga
Rev Sikwela
Mr Sililo
Ms Siliya
Mr Simbao
Mr L. Zimba

Abstentions (0)

Question accordingly agreed to.

Vote 17/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 17/02 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Mission Abroad – Lubumbashi – K6,902,337,907).

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, I request the hon. Minister to listen and not read the answer because the question I am about to ask is different.

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, Programme 3000, Activity 005 – Other Emoluments – K4,446,240,847.  In 2012, a provision of K5,073,769,645 was allocated for this activity. In 2013, K4,446,240,847 has been allocated for the same activity. Does this mean that the allocation for this activity, in 2012, was not released because I expected the allocation for this year to reduce drastically?

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, Programme 3000, Activity 005 – Other Emoluments – K4,446,240,847. The question whether the money was released or not is off the mark because other emoluments are not one time payments. They are recurrent payments. My colleague, as a former hon. Minister, should have known this better. The reduction he asked about is because the number of officers proceeding on leave in this mission will be less compared to the number of officers who will proceed on leave this year. I hope my colleague does not confuse this activity to be a one-time payment because it is a recurrent cost.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lufuma (Kabompo West): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3012, Activity 010 –Rehabilitation of Properties – K2,000,000,000. Why has there been a sudden increment from around K300 million to K2 billion? I would like to have an insight as to what properties we are talking about which will be rehabilitated at a cost of K2 billion all of a sudden.

Dr Lungu: Mr Chairperson, this provision is required to meet the cost of rehabilitating the property of certain missions. The increase is due to the extent of dilapidation of the structures. Now, when structures have dilapidated, they are in stages and categories. If they are more dilapidated, then we require more money to revamp them. That is just normal.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Simbao (Senga Hill): Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 3001, Activity 003 – Office Administration – K90,933,535. Why do we have such a drastic reduction in this important function?

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, I appeal to my colleagues to kindly listen to answers when questions are asked. I responded to a question by Hon. Namulambe which is similar to the one which has been asked by Hon. Simbao. I said that the reduction was because the number of officers who will be proceeding on leave from the mission in question next year is less than the number of officers who proceeded on leave this year.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 17/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 17/03 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Mission Abroad – Washington – K13,791,806,428

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3000, Activity 005 – Other Emoluments – K12,302,073,311. In 2012, there was about K11.2 billion and in the year 2013, the allocation is about K12.3 billion, and yet, the allocation for salaries for Division I and II officers who are based in Washington is about K828 million. Does it mean that this mission is going to close because all the officers are going on leave in 2012, hence the increment to the allocation to other emoluments? How much is each person going to get from the allocation as leave payment?

Interruptions

Dr Lungu: This provision is required to meet payments for various Foreign Service allowances and locally engaged staff. The increase is due to the increased number of staff to be paid other personal emoluments.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Kalima (Kasenengwa): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3002, Activity 018 – Head of Missions Conference – K62,815,540. This Activity appears in all the missions, but it was not budgeted for last year. Why does the allocation appear in next year’s Budget when it has not been part of the 2012 Budget? What is this conference all about?

Hon. Government Members: Which page?

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Those who are asking for the page number, I think it means they do not have the Yellow Book. The Head that we are considering is on one page. That is where we all should be.

Interruptions

Laughter 

Dr Lungu: Mr Chairperson, this provision is required to meet the cost of participation of the Head of Mission in a conference to be held in Zambia. There was no provision in 2012 because the conference takes place every two years.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Simbao: Mr Chairperson, I note that Programme 3012 – Infrastructure Development is completely missing under this Vote. I would like to know why because this particular mission is in very bad shape.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, during my presentation of the policy statement, I indicated that we are breaking up with the past situation whereby we were spreading our money very thinly on the ground. For next year, we have decided that we shall send large sums to a few missions so that we can do thorough rehabilitation work. That is the reason we have no allocation for such funds in Washington and other missions. It is not only Washington. There are other missions that also do not have such an allocation.

Sir, it is not that we are not cognisant of the fact that the property in Washington also requires rehabilitation. We just do not have the money for those works at the moment. We have decided to use the money in Lubumbashi and Brussels.

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3000, Activity 005 – Other Emoluments – K12,302,073,311. In his response, the hon. Minister said that the increase by K1 billion on expenditure for other emoluments is as a result of an increase in staffing levels. Can he inform the nation, the numbers of the personnel which have made the establishment increase in size?

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, I did not come with the establishment register, copies of which, courtesy of you, Sir, were presented to all hon. Members. I would like to request Hon. Professor Lungwangwa to kindly refer to the volumes that were presented to each one of us, indicating the establishment in all ministries and all missions abroad. I, obviously, would not carry all those volumes to anticipate questions such as this. How many officers are in every mission? That obviously, is asking for too much.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 17/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Interruptions 

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

 Hon. Members on the right, that laughter is contagious. Do not tempt me to send you out. 

VOTE 17/06 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Mission Abroad – London – K16,253,926,377)

Mr Simbao: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3056, Activity 001 – Political Economic Cooperation – K84,049,708 and Activity 002 - Political and Economic Cooperation – Nil. What is the difference between Activity 001 and Activity 002 as they were both funded this year, but has not been provided for next year? 

Dr Lungu: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 3056, Activity 001 – Political Economic Cooperation – K84,049,708 and Activity 002 – Political and Economic Cooperation – Nil, this provision is required to meet expenses related to the participation of officers in political and economic activities at the mission. The decrease is as a result of reduced travel outside the station by officers. That is why we are saying the difference between … 

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Just provide the answer. Do not engage them in discussions. You will be derailed. Proceed.

Dr Lungu: I thank you, Sir.
    
Laughter

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3056, Activity 001 – Political Economic Cooperation – K84,049,708 and Activity 002 – Political and Economic Cooperation – Nil. In 2012, these two activities were funded separately. However, next year only one is funded. What is the difference between the two activities? 

Further, what has necessitated the reduction in these activates?

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, Programme 3056, Activity 001 – Political Economic Cooperation – K84,049,708 and Activity 002 Political and Economic Cooperation – Nil, during the budget preparation process, the ministry noticed that there was little distinction between the two activities. That is the reason we decided to merge them into one. That is the reason Activity 002 has no provision for 2013. The reduction in the allocation to Activity 001, like the hon. Deputy Minister said, is because of the reduced travels for officers in the mission in question. That is the reason for the reduction of about K28 million. 

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

Mr Chisanga (Mkushi South): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programmes 3001, Activity 011 – Utility Bills – K106,964,471. In the 2012 Budget, there is K154,114,810. May I know why the figure for that activity is decreasing instead of increasing?

Dr Lungu: Mr Chairperson, this provision is required to pay telephone, electricity and water bills at the mission. The decrease is due to the cost-saving measures which shall be employed when using such utilities. As my hon. Minister said in his statement, we will put prepaid facilities in place. 

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 17/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

VOTE 17/07 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Mission Abroad – Cairo – K4,819,015,765)

Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3000, Activity 001 – Salaries Division I – K456,116,330, Activity 002 – Salaries Division II – K105,144,725 and Activity 005 – Other Emoluments – K4,067,940,329. May I know why the programme total is wrong. Allow me to illustrate this briefly. Five plus nine will never give you a figure ending with a five. It will be a figure ending with a four. Why is the programme total wrong?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions 

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, I have to concede that the figures in the column for 2013, at least the last two digits, are not accurate. What this calls for is for us to check whether that error has been carried over to affect the programme, unit and the department totals.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! Hon. Lubinda for President!

Interruptions 

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Minister of Finance, what do you propose in light of that?

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, I propose that the figures be re-aligned as soon as possible.

Interruptions 

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The effect of this is that we cannot continue considering the allocation for this ministry. This is a mistake and, as submitted, you are not even sure whether it will affect the Head total at the end.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

You remember what we did earlier when we were considering the other Head. This is the hon. Minister of Finance’s Budget. In light of this problem with the figures, I asked the hon. Minister what he intended to do, and his answer was that, as soon as it was practicable, he would come up with the corrections.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, I take your guidance very seriously. Like I said, the error in that unit might affect the departmental total. However, I seek your indulgence that we proceed with the other Heads…

Interruptions

Mr Lubinda: … because those may not be affected. What might be affected would be the Head Total, which can also be deferred until after we have checked things out. That way, we will be rationalising on the approach.

I thank you, Sir.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The generous comments from the right are uncalled for. There is no hon. Member here who is lazy. I think, all of us are serious with our work. That is why we are here.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, my intervention is seeking to assist our colleagues in the PF. On Tuesday, I had struggled to get acceptance from this House to defer the matters that were arising from the defective nature of this Budget we are dealing with. I am seeking your indulgence that, as earlier indicated, we allow our colleagues in the PF who, not long ago, you indicated were asking which page we were on, to seriously study their individual ministries’ Votes to ensure that these errors do not exist and, then, we will have a smooth flow of the process of adopting the Budget. That is my proposal. Going forward, I do not know if it is within procedure, but I am asking whether you can ask the mover of the Motion, the hon. Minister of Finance, who has since shown serious magnanimity, to seek for an adjournment. This should not amount to being called indolent or lazy.

I thank you, Sir.

Interruptions

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, we are drawn backwards by the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs. The owner of the Motion, the hon. Minister of Finance, had agreed to review the figures. I did mention to the hon. Minister of Finance the failure of balancing the figures. I also note that an addendum was brought here to balance certain figures.  However, I asked him to ask his officers to check properly so that we do not have problems. The other thing is that it is important for us to give them the chance to go through the figures so that we do not pass something that is wrong. Once we pass that, certain comments outside will bundle all of us. People will wonder what sort of hon. Members of Parliament we are.

Please, we want to pass things that are straight. It is not a question of laziness. If you are not lazy, why did you not find the difference? You must tell us what is wrong and correct. This is addition. We are looking at these figures and, sometimes, we may keep quiet not because we agree, but because we want to move on. 

I thank you, Sir

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The mover of the Motion, the hon. Minister of Finance, made his position very clear, which is  that, as soon as reasonably practicable, he will come back with the corrections. In the premises, I rule that we will defer consideration of this, and move to the next head.

VOTE 18/01 – (Judiciary – K272,218,432,475).

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! 

There is no victor or loser here. All of us are losing on time

The Minister of Justice (Mr Kabimba, SC.): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity ...

Interruptions

Mr Kabimba: Could you, please, pay attention.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! 

Mr Kabimba, SC.: Mr Chairperson, it is my honour and privilege to be accorded this opportunity to present the policy statement on the estimates of revenue and expenditure for the Judiciary for 2013.

Mr Chairperson, the core functions of the Judiciary are to administer and deliver justice, through resolving disputes between individuals, private companies and individuals, the State and individuals or the State and companies; interpret the Constitution and the laws of Zambia; promote the rule of law; and contribute to the maintenance of social order in our society.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Let us be attentive, on my left.

Mr Kabimba, SC.: The Judiciary, Mr Chairperson, is also mandated to safeguard the Constitution, uphold democratic principles and protect human rights of individuals and groups of people in our society. 

Mr Chairperson, these functions are executed through the existing court system, which include the Supreme Court, the High Court of Zambia, the Industrial Relations Court, Subordinate Courts, the Small Claims Court and Local Courts of our land.

Mr Chairperson, the Small Claims Court determines small claims of up to K20 million, and is designed to provide a rapid and less formal alternative to conventional court proceeding. The court operates in Lusaka, Kitwe and Ndola, and the Government intends to decentralise it to other provinces in 2013. It will, therefore, undertake feasibility studies in the remaining provinces in the coming year, so that provision is made in the 2014 Budget.

Mr Chairperson, with regards to the construction of court buildings, the House may wish to know that, in 2012, the budgetary allocation …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

I know the people who were talking because I am very particular. I am watching.

Hon. Government Member: It is Dorika.

Mr Kabimba, SC.: Mr Chairperson, the House may wish to know that, in 2012, the budgetary allocation to the Judiciary for the construction of local courts was only K40 billion, which represented approximately, 0.14 per cent of the total National Budget. The construction of, at least, twenty-seven local courts has, however, been completed in provinces as follows:

Province            Number of local courts Constructed

Northern     8
Southern                    11
Central                        11
Eastern                        12
Western                    10
Luapula                    10
Copperbelt    9
Lusaka    8
North-western                 10
Mr Chairperson, this programme has enhanced and improved access to justice by all the people of Zambia at the community level. However, this infrastructure development will only be more meaningful if it is accompanied by the development of a qualified and professional human resource within the Judiciary. In line with the PF Manifesto, construction of court infrastructure will continue to be a priority in 2013. To this end, K40 billion has been reserved for the continuation of the construction of high court buildings in the Northern and Eastern provinces, bringing justice closer and more accessible to the people than ever before. In addition, subordinate courts will be constructed at Chirundu, Chama and, progressively, in all districts in the country. The construction is estimated to be completed in 2014. 

Sir, in a continued effort to improve justice delivery, a clerking system is being introduced by way of recruitment of researchers so as to ensure quick delivery of judgments. The Judiciary, with technical and financial assistance from the Investment Climate Facility for Africa, embarked on a project to computerise court operations. The project is intended to improve case management and allow for electronic filing of court documents, which will further decongest the courts.   

Mr Chairperson, in 2013, the Judiciary will embark on the establishment of a centre of excellence for the provision of training for judicial officers and legal practitioners. This will be done with the expertise and collaboration of the Zambia Institute of Advanced Legal Education (ZIALE), the University of Zambia (UNZA) School of Law and the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda (ICTR). Another activity that will be undertaken is the provision of electronic filing, electronic library and electronic payment services. This will enable litigants or their lawyers to file documents into court and make payments electronically, which will expedite the court processes and, consequently, de-congest the registries. 

Mr Chairperson, if we expect the Judiciary to effectively and efficiently administer justice, we must give it sufficient resources to use. It is the desire of the PF Government to see to it that the confidence of our people in our justice system is restored and access thereto is less costly for all our citizens. In this regard, judicial reforms shall be a matter of priority in 2013. These reforms shall be people-driven so as to make the Judiciary an effective instrument of social change for our social and economic development. 

Mr Chairperson, it is against this background that I urge his august House to support the Judiciary’s 2013 Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure of K272,218,432,475. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Chairperson, I thank you very much for giving me the opportunity …

Mr Kakoma: On a point of order, Sir. 

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised. 

Mr Kakoma: Mr Chairperson, first of all, I would like to apologise to my neighbour and Deputy Spokesperson for the UPND for disrupting his debate.

Sir, earlier, today, through a point of order, an hon. Member wanted to know whether the UPND was in order to bring cadres here to petition, and the ruling of the Chair was that those cadres were here lawfully because they had not defied Parliament. However, the PF has sent its cadres to come and beat up our people and disrupt their procession. Is the hon. Minister of Justice in order to omit that from his statement? Further, are PF cadres in order to have done that on Parliament’s premises where immunities and privileges are enjoyed? 

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: According to the information that has reached me, the police have done the needful and arrested the culprits, whoever they are. Be that as it may, the hon. Minister of Justice may comment on that issue as he winds up debate.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Mweetwa (Choma Central): Thank you very much, once again, Mr Chairperson, for giving me the opportunity to add my voice to the debate on the Vote of the Ministry of Justice. I intend to be brief as I make a few comments on the justice machinery of our country.

Mr Chairperson, in supporting this Vote, I want to state that, ever since the PF Government came into power, we have seen a number of ground-breaking statements of reform in various sectors of our country, let alone, the Judiciary. However, I want to say that the manner in which the PF has gone about proposing reforms in the Judiciary has been, in my opinion, very derogatory to the decorum of that mystified institution of our society.

Sir, the way the PF has announced the judicial reforms it wants to institute has amounted to political interference because they do not appear to have had any measure to preserve the integrity of the Judiciary in its scheme. Recently, we have heard blatant statements that have not been substantiated by any evidence from competent investigative authorities accusing some members of the Judiciary of corruption. We have even seen an hon. Minister of Justice issue threatening remarks and boast that he was the most senior at the Bar when, in fact, seniority, at that particular time – and it is not my elder brother, but it was a PF hon. Minister of Justice – had nothing to do with the way the Judiciary should look at the Executive, its administration of Justice and interpretation of the law. 

Mr Chairperson, have seen the so-called Judicial Reforms being used as a mechanism for abusing public resources. In this country, we have seen a judge hired from a neighbouring country to superintend over a tribunal, something which is despicable because it has undermined the decorum of, and respect for, the Judiciary. I do not know what the rationale is behind the PF Government hiring a High Court Judge from a neighbouring country and bringing him here to superintend over Supreme Court Judges in a tribunal. That has undermined the integrity of the Judiciary that we have held in high esteem since Independence.

Mr Chairperson, we believe that the Ministry of Justice has been used, in this particular regard, as a conduit of abuse of public resources. How does one explain the indefinite stay of this Judge from a neighbouring country at very high cost and at the expense of the taxpayer, and yet when it was in the Opposition, the PF was proclaiming prudence in the event that the people of this country afforded them an opportunity to lead it. What we have seen is unexplainable and unjustifiable abuse of State resources on wide ranging issues, including paying this Judge from a neighbouring country.

Mr Chairperson, under the PF Government, we have also seen terrible abuse of the justice machinery of this country. We have seen unprecedented numbers of election petitions by a winning Government, thereby placing stress on the Judiciary when the Government knows that the Judiciary is already clogged with a lot of cases, many of them criminal. What this means is that the issue of human rights by those people who are being incarcerated and pending on the list to appear in court is in question. However, because they are in power, the PF has generated many election petitions with impunity, many of them unfounded, as has been ruled by the courts. They know that our justice system is already strained.

Mr Chairperson, we did not expect a party that has spent ten years in the Opposition to have started on such a scandalous note.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Opposition Member: Repeat that. Scandalous!

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Chairperson, this, in terms of the delivery of justice is delayed justice, and justice delayed is said to be justice denied.

Mr Chairperson, when it comes to infrastructure development in the country’s courts of law, we had expected the PF Government to move at supersonic speed to try and address these challenges.

Sir, forty eight years after Independence, this country still faces a situation where many local courts still hold their sessions under trees. The Government must show concern on this issue. It does not matter what the MMD did or did not do to address this issue, the mandate and baton is now in the hands of the PF who must account for what they are doing or what they intend to do. They must not keep pointing fingers at the MMD because the MMD did its part.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Chairperson, if my memory serves me right, I remember that a Bill was brought to this House that sought to increase the number of High Court Judges in the country. As I speak now, that number of Judges has not been met yet, meaning that there is still a needs gap when it comes to the number of Judges that should serve this country. No wonder you find Judges conducting circuits around the country. This just buttresses my point of justice delayed is justice denied. My expectation was that the PF Government would quickly table its infrastructure development plan regarding the expansion of court rooms. We have not yet heard the Government talk about this. All we hear, like for many other sectors, is that it will be addressed when money is made available. We would like to see our colleagues on your right come up with a pragmatic time-tied programme of action.

Mr Chairperson, alongside the issue of the number of Judges, we have seen that the needs gap for lawyers in this country is widening. At this particular time when we are espousing the issue of human rights to be recognised and respected, we lack the necessary manpower in terms of lawyers to be at the service of many of our people. In this country, we have roughly 600 lawyers who have been admitted to the bar to practice law, and yet we have an institute that has made it extremely difficult for students to qualify to the bar.

Mr Chairperson, many students and people out there were expecting that once the PF came into power, it was going to address this. You can move from Lusaka to Livingstone, which is about 500 km, and not find a single law firm along the way. Law firms are either in Lusaka or Livingstone. There is also nothing in this regard from Lusaka to Mongu. Perhaps, there is just one law firm in the entire Western Province. In the whole Southern Province, maybe, there are just three law firms.

Mr Chairperson, I want to take this opportunity to request the State Counsel to look into that particular issue because it is a very serious …

Mr Kapeya: On a point of order, Sir.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kapeya: Mr Chairperson, we need your guidance. Is the hon. Member of Parliament who is debating in order to keep on addressing us instead of the Chair? 

I need your serious ruling.

The Deputy Chairperson: The serious ruling is that the hon. Member is in order since, after realising that there a slip of the tongue, he quickly addressed me by the appropriate title.

Continue, hon. Member.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Chairperson, thank you very much for your guidance.

Mr Muntanga: Kabusha.

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Chairperson, I was about to wind up on the note that under the PF Government, we are seeing strange things happening. We have had cases that have been running for a long time in the justice system of this country when the PF was in the Opposition and there was an abundance of evidence to have some people convicted. These are people I consider to have committed crimes against Zambians by being involved in corruption and stealing huge sums of taxpayers’ money to a level whereby donors even withdrew their support to certain ministries. 

Mr Chairperson, the moment the PF Government came into power, those people were acquitted. I now think the people out there who are having assertions that some of these people who had court cases were funding the PF and that is why now they are being acquitted are justified. With this kind of leadership, it becomes very bleak for one to see whether the PF Government, using the Zambian justice machinery, intends to fight corruption or promote the theft of public funds by acquitting people who funded their campaigns. 

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bwalya (Lupososhi): Mr Chairperson, I have heard that my colleagues from the Eastern Province getting worried.

Mr Chairperson, the Judiciary is a very important institution in democracy and promotion of good governance. It is this institution that all of us, including the UPND and MMD, look up to in the administration of justice. Therefore, it is an important institution, and all of us need to support its budget that has been presented to this House.

Having said that, Mr Chairperson, I want to state that the hon. Minister has inherited a very difficult ministry in which a lot of work has to be hard. We need the reforms as earlier referred to, but my concern6 is the cost of justice in this country. It is very expensive. This is an area you need to pay attention to to ensure that access to legal services is as affordable as possible to the common person in this country. The legal fraternity needs to help the Zambian people in as far as the cost of accessing legal services is concerned.  Therefore …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, order!

I am interested in following the debate.

The hon. Member can proceed.

Mr Bwalya: I was saying the legal system of this country, Mr Chairperson, has not helped much in terms of legal reforms in this country. My appeal is that, as the hon. Minister settles in that office, he must ensure that we have a legal system that is going to respond to the needs of both the poor and rich. You need to engage our colleagues in the legal fraternity to try, as much as possible, to make access to legal services affordable to the ordinary Zambian.

Mr Chairperson, delivery of justice has been an issue for a very long time. I hope this   time around, we will put a stop to this. There have been unnecessary adjustments in our judicial system, whereby cases have been adjourned, thus making it expensive, for instance, for the poor person who has been called from the Copperbelt or Northern provinces to be a witness and has to spend many nights here. This has been compounded by the few numbers of Judges and magistrates in this country. We need to address this and ensure that we have the correct number of Judges and magistrates so that the delivery of justice can be speeded up.

Mr Chairperson, if you have few legal practitioners, definitely, the delivery of justice will suffer and, once that happens, you are actually creating fertile ground for corruption. The more you adjourn the cases, the more you are giving room to those who are accused, those who have taken the cases to court and those who are administering justice to manipulate the system. To me, this breeds corruption. We have to address the numbers of Judges and magistrates in our Judiciary if we are to come up with meaningful reforms.  No meaningful reforms will come into the Judiciary if the number of Judges stipulated in the Act is not addressed. We will not have meaningful reforms if the infrastructure is not attended to and if those that are charged with the responsibility of delivering justice are not participating in these reforms.

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Member for Choma Central talked about the issue of commissions. I just want to state that I think the Constitution of the Republic of Zambia clearly states that His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia has the right to appoint the Chairman of a commission for as long as that person holds or has held higher judicial positions anywhere in the Commonwealth. Let me quote that particular aspect from the Constitution of the Republic of Zambia. This is on Page 63, Article 98, Clause 3(a) and (b).

Mr Muntanga interjected.

Mr Bwalya: Just wait, Hon. Muntanga. You will hear what I will read. It is as follows:

“If the President considers that the question of removing a Judge of the Supreme Court …”

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

________________

HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

________________

The House adjourned at 1957 hours until 0900 hours on Friday, 16th November, 2012.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

______________

The House adjourned at 1955 hours until 0900 hours on Friday, 16th November, 2012.