DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE SECOND SESSION OF THE ELEVENTH ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 21st November, 2012

The House met at 1430 hours 

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM 

PRAYER

__________

ANNOUNCEMENT BY MR SPEAKER

 PETITION LODGED BY THE UNITED PARTY FOR NATIONAL DEVELOPMENT (UPND)

Mr Speaker: Hon Members, I wish to inform the House that on Thursday, the 15th November, 2012, I received a petition from the United Party for National Development (UPND) for and on behalf of the people of Zambia. The petition was presented by the hon. Member of Parliament for Kabompo West Parliamentary Constituency, Mr A. L. Lufuma, MP.

In the petition, the petitioners expressed displeasure at the Government’s allocation, in the 2013 Budget, of K1.4 Billion for the construction of a retirement house for the Fifth Republican President. 

The petitioners state that the Benefits of Former Presidents Act, Cap. 15 of the Laws of Zambia, provides for the benefits of a former President and that these benefits include a house. They contend that the benefits under the Act accrue to a former President and not a sitting President. They state that this position is evident from the fact that the former President must meet certain conditions set out in the Act in order to be eligible to receive the benefits. In this regard, the petitioners contend that the allocation of K1.4 billion towards the construction of a retirement house for the Fifth Republican President, who is the sitting President, is contrary to the law.

The petitioners, therefore, pray that the House should not approve the allocation of K1.4 billion for the construction of the Fifth Republican President’s retirement home. 

As hon. Members are aware, the budgetary allocation referred to in the petition is provided for under the budget for Vote 51 – The Ministry of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication. In this regard, the House through, the Committee of Supply which will consider and deliberate this Vote, will address and debate the concerns expressed in this petition and resolve on the matter as the Committee will consider fit. The petitioners have been advised accordingly.

I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

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QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWERS

CONSTRUCTION OF DISTRICT HOSPITAL IN MULOBEZI

268.Mr Sililo (Mulobezi) asked the Minster of Health:

    (a)    when the Government would build a district hospital in Mulobezi;

    (b)    what the estimated cost of projects was; and 

   (c)    what the time-frame for undertaking the project was.

The Deputy Minister of Health (Mr Mulenga): Mr Speaker, the Government’s policy is that every district should have a first level referral hospital or district hospital. The Ministry of Health is currently reviewing the plan for the construction of district hospitals to take into consideration the newly-created districts such as Mulobezi. The Ministry of Health shall advise on the proposed implementation plan as soon as it has been concluded.

Sir, the project is expected to cost approximately K20 billion. As the construction is done in phases, the total duration for the completion of Phase 1, 2 and 3 of the new Mulobezi District Hospital is 3-4 years.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mufalali (Senanga): Mr Speaker, through you, may I find out how long the putting together of the plan will take.

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, as stated in my earlier remarks, the plan will we availed to you as soon as we complete it.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Mr Speaker, I assume that there must also be a time-frame set to guide the planner. What is the actual time-frame that the Government has for this plan to be completed? 

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, I agree with what the hon. Member is saying. I am not aware of any specific date by which the plan should be completed. However, I wish to assure him that we will avail it to the hon. Members as soon as it is completed. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Hamusonde (Nangoma): Mr Speaker, since there is no district hospital in that area, how do people access health services? 

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, we are also concerned about the long distance which our people cover to go to the nearest hospital. We are therefore, trying to expedite the putting together of the plan so as to ensure that we construct a hospital in that area.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mooya (Moomba): Mr Speaker, could the hon. Minister explain to me what he means by the word, ‘plan’ because what I thought was that these hospitals are supposed to have standard drawings. 

The Minister of Health (Dr Kasonde): Mr Speaker, I would like to explain what the word, ‘plan’ means in the context it was used by the hon. Deputy Minister. Plan refers to a schedule of activities or actions to be undertaken in order to meet a certain need. In response to a question by an hon. Member who asked why there is no district hospital in the area, I wish to state  that a district hospital had to be created first before consideration could be given for the creation of a district hospital. While I appreciate the high intellectual capacity of my colleagues in the Ministry of Health, I do not think it was in their place to dream up the location of a district hospital for a district which did not exist. It is for this reason that the plan which the hon. Member was talking about is the plan of the building. Yes, the plans of the buildings are ready and will be released to the relevant stakeholders as soon as the decision is made to proceed with the construction of the hospital. Thus, the word ‘plan’ can be used in the administrative context when referring to a schedule of activities and in the technical one when referring to a sketch of the building to be constructed.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sianga (Sesheke): Mr Speaker, can the hon. Deputy Minister state when this planning was started. 

Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, the planning was started as soon as the announcement was made that a new district had been created. So, every time such an announcement is made, immediately, the planning for the various development aspects of the districts begin to be made. This is the practice of this Government and, I think, it is a good one.

I thank you, Sir.

AGRICULTURE EXTENSION OFFICERS IN CHILUBI

267. Mr Chisala (Chilubi) asked the Minister of Agriculture and Livestock when the Government would send agriculture extension officers to the following areas in Chilubi District in order to boost the production of rice:

(a)Fube;

(b)Mayuka;

(c)Kasansa;

(d)Chicile; and

(e)Nsumbu.

The Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Livestock (Mr N. Banda): Mr Speaker, Mayuka Village is part of Mofu Camp, where there is already an agricultural extension officer. Nsumbu and Fube villages are part of the Santa Maria Camp, where there is an agricultural extension officer. Chicile Village, which is under Matipa East Camp is also manned by an agricultural extension officer. As for Kasansa Village, which is part of Mubili Camp, there is no agricultural extension officer. An officer will be deployed once recruitment is done. This camp is, however, being serviced by the camp extension officer for Matipa Camp, which is adjacent to the Mubili Camp. 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Chisala: Mr Speaker, Chilubi has twenty-two wards and only four wards are being manned by agricultural extension officers. Would it not be wise for the Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock to send officers on relief basis to go and work with the Chilubi farmers up to the end of the farming season?

The Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Livestock (Mr Mwewa): Mr Speaker, definitely, the ministry understands the vastness of Chilubi.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order on the right! Your colleague is hardly audible.

Mr Mwewa: Sir, we will liaise with the Provincial Agriculture Co-ordinator and see if it is possible to send some relief workers to go and help during the season you are talking about.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr L. Zimba (Kapiri-Mposhi): Mr Speaker, the agricultural extension officers are very important. When is the Government going to fill the vacant positions of extension officers throughout the country?

Mr Mwewa: Mr Speaker, like we have always said, through the Treasury Authority, this year, we have got at least authority to employ about 1,000 officers. Next year, we are likely to get some more officers to be deployed in these areas. This programme is on-going and as PF Government, we will continue employing unlike the MMD who could not employ for five years.

I thank you, Sir.

Interruptions

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Mr Speaker, it is good to hear that the PF Government is employing. May I find out from the hon. Minister what incentives the Government has put in place to reduce brain drain in the Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock? I am saying so because agricultural extension officers go to non-governmental organisations (NGOs), where they are properly remunerated.

Mr Mwewa: Mr Speaker, the issue of remuneration is a bone of contention for all workers  across the country. I know that the PF Government is trying to look at the welfare of all civil servants. We are going to continue increasing salaries in order to ensure that the officers are comfortable and that they are able to deliver and provide good services to the Zambian people.

I thank you, Sir.
________

BILL

THIRD READING

The following Bill was read the third time and passed:

The Re-Denomination of Currency Bill, 2012

________

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the
Chair]

VOTE 14 – (Ministry of Mines, Energy and Water Development – K615,697,013,465).

(Consideration resumed)
The Chairperson: When business was suspended yesterday, Tuesday, 21st November, 2012, the Committee of Supply on the Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure for the year 1st January, 2013, to 31st December, 2013, presented to the National Assembly in October, 2012, was considering Vote 14 – Ministry of Mines, Energy and Water Development – general policy debate, and the hon. Minister was winding up the debate. May the hon. Minister continue.

The Minister of Mines, Energy and Water Development (Mr Mukanga): Mr Chairperson, our ministry would love to have a number of dams built but, due to a limitation in funding, that has not been possible. However, it has a golden opportunity in that the new Act that has been formulated will create a trust fund which we will use to raise enough money for further investment in this sector. These dams will only be built in suitable areas.

Sir, on the issue of open access, which was raised by Hon. Mutati, our ministry is working on a grid code that will be operational in 2013, which will support the private sector in the area of generation. On the issue of energy tariffs, I think, it is important to note that, currently, all customers are paying below the cost of production. We are looking at a holistic approach of reviewing this tariff so that it continues to reflect the cost of production over a long period.

Mr Chairperson, on value addition, we are using the ZCCM-IH because this is one of its responsibilities. Therefore, the ZCCM-IH approach and work will change a bit in order to accommodate this aspect. For example, the company will revamp the lapidary in Ndola so that we can start polishing gemstones within Zambia, which will enable us get value for our minerals.

Sir, on oil blocks, to date, the Government has issued seventeen licences and numerous applications have been received for the forty-two blocks that have been demarcated in the last few months. Intensive exploration is expected to start soon. The ZCCM-IH has also been given a number of blocks as a custodian of the Government’s mining interests.

Sir, all of us know that, in its current state, INDENI is not able to give us the desired production levels because of constraints on its capacity. However, from the initial design capacity of about 1 million tonnes, it has worked very hard to improve its operational capacity every time we have had a shut-down, to an extent that it has risen to 650,000 tonnes. Therefore, we are ramping it. So, we cannot say that it is, currently, not a viable project. However, we are looking for a lasting solution to the problems we have in the petroleum sector. So, we will look at various options that will include procuring a hydrocracker or isomeriser, creating another refinery or improving the pipelines. There is a team already on the ground looking for solution to our operations.

Mr Chairperson, as I end, Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi, popularly known as Mahatma Gandhi, wrote, and I quote:

“My writings and sayings will be cremated with my body. It is only my doings or works that will remain”. 

Sir, what we do, today, and whatever we will do, in the future, is what is going to remain. Therefore, what the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) Government did is what has remained, and what the PF Government will do is what will remain. It is not what you say, or even what you started, but did not finish, that the people will be able to see.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: In life, you start from where others left, and what is important is the completion of something. Therefore, if the completion does not take place, then there is nothing that you would have done. We really appreciate the projects that the MMD Government started, and hope to give them a fine finish. 

Sir, with those few word I would like to urge all hon. Members to support this Vote because it is important for the livelihood of the people of Zambia and their children. If we all support it, we will make a difference.

I thank you, Sir. 

VOTE 14/01 – (Ministry of Mines, Energy and Water Development – Headquarters – K456,631,725,317).

The Minister of Finance (Mr Chikwanda): Mr Chairperson, I beg to move the following amendment:

(a)under Unit 01 – Administration, Programme 1000 – Personal Emoluments, by the deletion of Programme Total K2,832,180,657 and the substitution therefor of K2,832,180,656; and 

(b)under Unit 01 Administration Unit, Programme: 1001 Personal Emoluments, by deletion of Programme Total K2,193,962,387 and the substitution therefor of K2,193,962,386.

Mr V. Mwale (Chipangali): Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on page 170, Programme 1061, Activity 015 – Transferring of Inactive Files to National Archives – K77,000,000. For the purpose of transferring records, this amount seems way too much. Where will these files be transferred from? I also seek clarification on page 174, Programme 1120, Activity 032 – Monitoring and Evaluation of Programmes – K97,930,000; Programme 1001, Activity 068 – Monitoring and Evaluation – K223,680,000; and Programme 1003, Activity 025 – Monitoring and Evaluation of Training Programmes – K38,327,769. Why is this new entry for monitoring and evaluation there, and why has it been duplicated in other budget lines so that we have three allocations for the same activity? The third entry has, at least, been specified as monitoring and evaluation of training programmes. What about the others? 

The Deputy Minister of Mines, Energy and Water Development (Mr Musukwa): Mr Chairperson, the K77,000,000, under Programme1061, Activity 015, will cater for the purchase of office materials, protective wear and other requisites during the transfer of the files to the National Archives. As you are aware, this is a tedious process. 

I thank you, Sir. 

The Chairperson: What about the files?

Mr Musukwa: They come from various offices. As you are aware, we combined two ministries. 

Sir, the allocations to monitoring and evaluation will cater for fuel, allowances and other expenses related to the monitoring of the implementation of programmes in the ministry. As you are aware, we have intensified the monitoring of the mines in the ministry. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Miyanda (Mapatizya): Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on page 176, Programme 1004, Activity 002 – Rural Electrification Programme (3) (4) – K336,276,312,643. This year, over K437 billion was budgeted for under this activity. For next year, the amount has been reduced to K336 billion, a difference of about K100 billion. Why has this happened when we need to electrify our rural areas?

The Deputy Minister of Mines, Energy and Water Development (Mr C. Zulu): Mr Chairperson, the reduction is because we are going to source funds from our co-operating partners. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Chisanga (Mkushi South): Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on page 174, Programme 1006, Activity 040 – London Metal Exchange. This year, there was an entry of K76 million. Next year, there is nothing. May I know why there is no allocation for 2013? 

Further, I seek clarification on Programme 1133, Activity 026 – Formulation of Mineral and Metal Trade Regulations, Activity 041 – Review of Mining Policy – K49,389,816, and Activity 060 – Review of the Mines and Minerals Development Act 2008 – K40,000,000.  The first activity has no allocation while the other two have been reduced. Due to the depreciation of the kwacha, I would have expected an increase in the allocations to those two important activities. Why is there a reduction, instead?

Mr Musukwa:   Mr Chairperson, there is no provision for Programme 1006, Activity 040 – London Metal Exchange, because the ministry will get information and statistics from the International Copper Study Group to which it will subscribe. 

I thank you, Sir. 

The Chairperson: I think that there were about three queries. 

Mr C. Zulu: Mr Chairperson, the Programme 1133, Activity 026, has not been budgeted for because the drafting of the regulations has been completed. 

Mr Chairperson, on Programme 1133, Activities 041 and 060, the decrease is because most of the work was done in 2012, with very few issues remaining to be finalised. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Milambo (Mwembeshi): Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on page 171, Programme 1137, Activity 020 – Production of Asset Register – K38,304,000. I want to know whether the amount is enough for this activity. I also seek clarification on Programme 1182, Activity 004 – Procurement of Motor Vehicles – K400,000,000.  Does this figure include insurance premiums? 

Mr Musukwa: Mr Chairperson, the K38,304,000 under Programme 1137, Activity 020, is meant to meet the expenses of updating the asset register. Expenses include travelling to regional bureaux and mine safety departments. The slight increase is due to the upward adjustment of allowances. 

I thank you, Sir. 

The Chairperson: What about Programme 1182, Activity 004?

Mr C. Zulu: Mr Chairperson, Programme 1182, Activity 004 will cater for the procurement of one field vehicle. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Pande (Kasempa): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on page 171, Programme 1066, Activity 001 – Preparation of the Structure – K500,000,000. What structure is this, and what kind of preparation is this? 

Further, I seek clarification on Programme 1127, Activity 007 – Parliamentary Business – K116,252,621. The ministry seems to have worked well within K40 million allocated this year. What has changed in this activity for the amount to increase to K116.3 million? 

Mr C. Zulu: Mr Chairperson, the provision under Programme 1066, Activity 001, will cater for consultancy and other logistics for the preparation of the structure for the National Oil Company provided for in the Petroleum Exploration and Production Act of 2008.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Musukwa: Mr Chairperson, the provision under Programme 1127, Activity 007, is meant to meet expenses incurred when processing Parliamentary questions and related issues. The increase is due to the increased workload in the expanded ministry. 

I thank you, Sir. {mospagebreak}

Dr Kazonga (Vubwi): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1010, Activity 002 – Audit Queries Management – K253,000,000. This year, there was a provision of K1,689,098 and, for next year, there is a proposal of K253,000,000. May I find out what has caused this huge increase?

Mr Musukwa: Mr Chairperson, this provision is required to meet the expenses related to the verification of audit and Public Accounts Committee (PAC) reports. The increase is due to the under budgeting of this facility for the previous years.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Ms Imenda (Luena): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1005, Activity 100 – Water Sector Reform Support Unit – K5,169,838,739 and Activity 101 – Energy Regulation Board – K58,969,600,000. May I know why this is so and how these two activities have been surviving all this time since there was no provision before that.

Mr C. Zulu: Mr Chairperson, Programme 1005, Activity 100 – Water Sector Reform Support Unit – K5,169,838,739, this provision is required for undertaking activities related to the Water Sector Reforms. As you know, we just put in place the Water Act and we implemented it in October. Activity 101 – Energy Regulation Board – K58,969,600,000, this provision is meant to cater for expenses in running the board and its secretariat.

I thank you, Sir.

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

Vote 14/01, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 14/02 – (Ministry of Mines, Energy and Water Development – Geological Survey Department – K17,921,919,272).

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment under Unit 01 Human Resources and Administration Unit, Programme: 1000 Personal Emoluments, by the deletion of Programme Total K3,404,870,643 and the substitution therefor of K3,4.4,870,644.

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

Vote 14/02, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 14/03 – (Ministry of Mines, Energy and Water Development – Safety Department – K7,450,036,060).

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment under Unit 01 Human Resources and Administration Unit, Programme: 1000 Personal Emoluments, Activity 002 – Salaries Division II, by the deletion of K494,305,348 and the substitution therefor of K1,183,178,038.

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

Vote 14/03, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 14/04 – (Ministry of Mines, Energy and Water Development – Mines Development Department – K21,389,888,856).

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment under Unit 01 Human Resources and Administration Unit, Programme: 1000 Personal Emoluments, Activity 002 – Salaries Division II, by the deletion of K573,633,506 and the substitution therefore of K1,153,321,636.

Mr Namulambe (Mpongwe): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1093, Activity 044 – Modernisation of Mines Department – K10,000,000,000. What is involved in the modernisation of the Mines Department to cost K10 billion?

Mr Musukwa: Mr Chairperson, the value has been amended.

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

Vote 14/04, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 14/05 – (Ministry of Mines, Energy and Water Development – Energy Department – K50,657,627,102).

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move the following amendment:

(i) under Unit 01 Human Resources and Administration, Programme: 1001 General Administration, Activity 004 – Staff Welfare, by the deletion of K100,250,000; and

(ii) under Unit 01 Human Resources and Administration Unit, Programme: 1001 General Administration, Activity 003 – Office Administration, by the deletion of K349,730,000 and the substitution therefor of K440,980,000.

Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairperson, may I seek clarification on Programme 1124, Activity 018 – Implementation of GIS Energy Database – Nil and Activity 036 – Contribution to the Production of the SADC Energy Statistica – Nil. I see that there is no provision for next year, and yet, this year, we had the two provisions. May I know why.

Mr Musukwa: Mr Chairperson, Programme 1124, Activity 018 – Implementation of GIS Energy Database – Nil, there is no provision for this activity this year due to lack of funds. The activity will be implemented under the Technical Unit, Programme 1150, Activity 007 – Renewable Energy Sources Mapping. Activity 036 – Contribution to the production of the SADC Energy Statistica – Nil, there is no provision for this activity, as the project has come to and.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr V. Mwale: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1256, Activity 001 – Intensifying Prevention and Behaviour Change for Staff – Nil. Last year, there was a provision of K63,100,000 for this very important activity. May I find out why you are stopping this activity since there is no allocation this year for intensifying prevention and behaviour change for staff?

Mr C. Zulu: Mr Chairperson, this activity has been budgeted for under Human Resources Administration (HRA).

Ms Imenda: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1006, Activity 016 – Contribution to Platts Crude Oil and Petroleum Products Mark – K500,000,000. May I know why there is a 200 per cent increment from the previous allocation.

Mr C. Zulu: Mr Chairperson, the provision is required for financing subscriptions to Platts, crude oil and petroleum products market wire. This will provide access to a daily update on international petroleum prices. The information will be used in the planning process for the petroleum sub-sector.

I thank you, Sir.

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

Vote 14/05 as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 14/06 – (Ministry of Mines, Energy and Water Development – Water Affairs Department – K54,493,569,361).

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move the following amendment:

    (i)    under Unit 01 Administration Unit, Programme: 1000 Personal Emoluments, by the deletion of Programme Total K2,832,180,675 and the substitution therefor of K2,832,180,656; and

    (ii)    under Unit 01 Administration Unit, Programme: 1001 General Administration, by the deletion of Programme Total K2,193,962,387 and substitution therefor of K2,193,962,386.

Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1012, Activity 178 – Rural Water Development – Eastern Province – Nil. In the 2012 Budget, there was K400,000,000 authorised for that activity. I do not see any provisions for next year. Why is that the case?

Mr C. Zulu: Mr Chairperson, this provision was to cater for the expenses towards borehole constructions, well rehabilitation and maintenance of the German-funded projects. There is no provision for this activity in the 2013 Budget because the project has come to an end.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1012, Activity 108 – Ground Water Development for Drought Prone/Cholera Areas – K4,000,000,000. I would like to know which areas are cholera-prone because I have noted an increase in the allocation of funds in the 2013 Budget.

Mr C. Zulu: Mr Chairperson, this provision is meant to construct boreholes for mitigation in areas affected with trachoma in the Southern, North-Western, Northern, Western, the Copperbelt and Eastern provinces.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr V. Mwale: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1012, Activity 036 – Construction of Earth Dams – K11,800,000,000. In this year’s Budget, K11,000,000,000 was allocated for this activity and the hon. Minister has emphasised the need for more dams. However, he has only allocated K11,800,000,000 in next year’s Budget, which is an increase of only K800,000,000. Why is he not allocating more money to this activity so that he can then fulfil his intentions of constructing more dams in the country? I would like to know why the increment in the 2013 Budget is minimal.

Mr Musukwa: Mr Chairperson, as rightly observed by the hon. Member of Parliament, these are gradual processes, and we hope that, with time, we will be expanding in order to ensure that we create more opportunities for our people in this area.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Milambo: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1142, Activity 013 – Maintenance of Dams – K6,163,827,250. I would like to know why this provision is kept constant.

Mr C. Zulu: Mr Chairperson, this is meant to facilitate the maintenance of seventy dams identified in all provinces countrywide. This will improve the safety and make the operations of the dams efficient, which will result in increased access. The hon. Member got the figure wrong because we have actually increased the allocation from K6,100,000,000 in the 2012 Budget to K K6,163,827,250 in next year’s Budget.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr L. Ngoma (Sinda): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1012, Activity 036 – Construction of Earth Dams – K11,800,000,000. Where are these dams going to be constructed and what is the estimated cost of each dam?

Mr Musukwa: Mr Chairperson, the construction of these dams will be in various places such as Mpolokoso, Kawambwa, Isoka, Chinsali, Chongwe, Chipata, Kapiri Mposhi and Choma District as well as others that will be deemed fit.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Mtolo (Chipata Central) Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1302, Activity 003 – Purchase of Rigs, Accessories and Support Vehicles – K2,489,512,750. There is a huge decrease in the allocation from K9,250,000,000 in 2012 to K2,489,512,750 in 2013. I would like to know how many rigs this K2,489,512,750 can buy.

Mr Musukwa: Mr Chairperson, the provision will cater for the purchase of one set of drill plant and equipment to facilitate ground water exploration and development. This activity is on going.

I thank you, Sir.

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

Vote16/06 as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 14/07 – (Ministry of Mines, Energy and Water Development – Planning and Information Department – K7,152,247,496).

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move the following amendment:

(i)under Unit 01 Human Resources and Administration Unit, Programme: 1001 General Administration, Activity 004 – Staff Welfare, by the deletion of K400,000,000.

(ii)under Unit 01 Human Resources and Administration Unit, Programme: 1001 General Administration, Activity 003 – Office Administration, by the deletion of K185,000,000 and the substitution therefor of K385,000,000; and

(iii)under Unit 01 Human Resources and Administration Unit, Programme: 1008 Cross Cutting Issues, Activity 091 – Sensitisation of Staff and Provision of Medical care, by the deletion of K12,000,000 and the substitution therefor of K212,000,000.

    Interruptions

    The Chairperson: Order!

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

Vote 14/07, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 14/08 – (Ministry of Mines, Energy and Water Development – Natural Resources Department).

Mr V. Mwale: Mr Chairperson, I do not know if this is only in the Yellow Book that I have. I do not see any provisions for 2013 …

The Chairperson: What page are you looking at?

Mr V. Mwale: I am looking at page 202, on Vote 14/08 starting with 01 – Human Resources and Administration Unit. There is nothing for 2013 ...

The Chairperson: Okay, I got it.

Mr Musukwa: Mr Chairperson, the hon. Member’s copy of the Yellow Book is just okay. There are no provisions because the department has been moved to the Ministry of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 14/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 14/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

VOTE 14/10 – (Ministry of Mines, Energy and Water Development – Zambia Forestry College).

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Chairperson, I am failing to follow the debate on the Floor of this House. What are we agreeing on when there are no allocations to these Votes?

The Chairperson: My understanding is that there is no allocation for this particular Vote but at the end, we have the Head Total for the whole ministry.

Mr Mwiimbu: No, Mr Chairperson. The Head Total is for this year and not 2013. 

The Chairperson: No, my Head Total shows K615 billion, which is different …

Mr Mwiimbu: No, Mr Chairperson. I think look at it properly and analyse it.

The Chairperson: I understand but my Budget here shows a Head Total for all the departments. The Head Total for 2013 is K615,697,013,465, while for this year it was K662 billion. There is no departmental total for that particular Vote but a Head Total on page 212 for the Ministry of Mines, Energy and Water Development. I am sure it is understood.

Vote 14/10 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 31 – (Ministry of Justice – K354,778,527,776).

The Minister of Justice (Mr Kabimba, SC.): Mr Chairperson, thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to give the policy statement on the Ministry of Justice. The Ministry of Justice is mandated to effectively and efficiently facilitate the administration of justice and the promotion of the rule of law in order to enhance good governance for the benefit of the people of Zambia. It is also mandated to ensure that Zambia complies with its international obligations as a member state of the international community and its organisations.

Mr Chairperson, the ministry is determined to facilitate the dispensation of justice and the promotion of good governance. In order to achieve this, the ministry’s key strategies are to strengthen the Government’s capacity to expeditiously conclude litigation and undertake the drafting of legislation which is responsive to national needs, in order to facilitate the timely implementation of Government programmes. It is also to implement effective governance mechanisms within the country and render professional advice in negotiated agreements and treaties in order to strengthen Zambia’s compliance with and respect for international standards.

Mr Chairperson, these key strategies will be implemented through the following departments:

(a)Legislative Drafting and Law Revision;

(b)Civil Litigation Department;

(c)Debt Collection and Prerogative of Mercy Department;

(d)International Law and Agreements Department; and

(e)Governance, Administrator-General and Official Receiver Department;

Mr Chairperson, the House may recall that in 2012, the ministry was allocated an initial amount of K295.1 billion for both personal emoluments and recurrent departmental charges for the ministry. The ministry received supplementary funding of K128.8 billion in order to finance the operations of the technical committee on the drafting of the Constitution and to meet outstanding payments under compensation and awards incurred prior to the 2012 budget year. Consequently, the revised budget for the ministry increased from K295.1 billion to K423.9 billion. As of September, 2012, a total of K357.8 billion, representing 84 per cent of the revised budget, had been released to the ministry.

Mr Chairperson, some of the major activities undertaken by the ministry in 2012 include the following:

Legislative drafting

The ministry has in line with the manifesto of the Patriotic Front (PF) Government drafted various Bills which will be tabled before this august House in 2013. The Government intends to undertake significant legal reforms in various sectors such as financial, electoral, local government, environmental, education, health, agriculture, social security, women in social and economic development and gender, youths in socio-economic development, arts and culture development, sports and recreation development, infrastructure development, tourism, land, labour and industrial relations, energy, mines and minerals, science and technology and commerce, trade and industry.

Mr Chairperson, some of the notable Acts which have already been enacted this year are the Persons with Disability Act No. 6 of 2012 and the Anti-Corruption Act No. 3 of 2012. 

The Persons with Disabilities Act of 2012, Mr Chairperson, has domesticated the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities to which Zambia is a party bringing Zambia into compliance with its international obligations. The Act is the first of its kind because it recognises persons with disabilities as persons before the law and accords them with the respect of their dignity, physical and mental integrity. The Act also provides for their full participation in civil, political, social and economic spheres without discrimination and inclusion in society.

Constitutional Reforms

Mr Chairperson, the Government has embarked on constitutional reforms. Following the appointment of the Technical Committee on the Drafting of the Zambian Constitution by His Excellency the President, Mr Michael Chilufya Sata, the department is taking an active role in providing secretariat and technical services to the technical committee. As we have reiterated on several occasions, it is the desire of our Government to ensure that Zambia has a constitution that will stand the test of time by deriving its legitimacy from the wishes of the Zambian people and one that will reflect the aspirations. To this end, the process of drafting and formulating the constitution must be people driven with the end product which must embody the social and cultural values and norms of the Zambian people devoid of any foreign interference.

The technical committee, Mr Chairperson, has already prepared the first draft constitution which is undergoing consultation at provincial and district levels. The provincial conventions will then after culminate into the national and sector group. The technical committee will then prepare a final draft constitution taking into account the comments and recommendations from the consultative process. The final draft is expected to be submitted to Government by June, 2013. 

The budget, Mr Chairperson, for drafting the constitution is being strictly managed and responsibly expended and is far below the sum of over a  K135 billion which the National Constitution Conference (NCC) spent in the same period. During the period November, 2011 to September, 2012, the technical committee spent a total sum of K52,037,465,158.56. The money was spent on procurement of goods and services, the setting up of services and operations of the secretariat, printing and countrywide distribution of key documents, media publicity programmes, stakeholder consultative meetings and other related operational costs. It is envisaged that a total amount of K115 billion will be spent by the time the exercise is completed. The money will be spent on conducting the district consultative fora, provincial conventions and the national and sector group conventions. Part of the money will be used on operational costs for the secretariat and printing and countrywide distribution of documents such as the final draft constitution and the final report of the technical committee. It should be noted, however,  that this amount does not include the cost of holding the referendum as that activity falls outside the mandate of the technical committee. 

Mr Chairperson, we believe that a good constitution is fundamental to good governance and the growth of our democracy and it is this point that I would like to make to this august House that we are committed to a people driven constitution. This means a constitution that will not suffer the influence of the Government of Zambia and indeed any foreign government. I want to emphasise at this point that those of our colleagues that think we can import a constitution from another country must reconsider that position.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Judicial Reforms

Mr Kabimba:  The Government recognises that effective delivery of justice requires a holistic approach. In this regard, government through the ministry will spearhead judicial reforms in order to improve the capacity, integrity, independence, transparency and accountability of the Judiciary to the people of Zambia. These reforms are expected to be undertaken through a commission that will ascertain from various users of the justice system the best way of ensuring that the Judiciary wins the confidence of the Zambian people. Therefore, the need for support from this august House cannot be over emphasised. 

Domestication of International Instruments Ratified by Zambia

Mr Chairperson, the House may wish to note that Zambia is part to six main international human rights instruments, namely:

(i)the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights;

(ii)the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights;

(iii)the International Convention on the Elimination of all Forms of Racial Discrimination;

(iv)the Convention Against Torture;

(v)the Convention on the Elimination of Forms of Discrimination Against Women ; and

(vi)the Convention of the Rights of a Child.

As a result of such ratification, Mr Chairperson, Zambia is required to periodically report to the relevant treaty bodies on the measures it has undertaken to comply with its obligations. 

Mr Chairperson, the ministry is in the final stages of preparing Zambia’s second report on the Convention of the Rights of a Child. It has also embarked on the preparation of the following four reports:

(a)the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights;

(b)the International Covenant on Economic and Social Cultural Rights;

(c)the International Convention on the Eliminating of all Forms of Racial Discrimination; and

(d)the African Charter on Human and People’s Rights.

Governance

Mr Chairperson, the ministry continues to promote the implementation of the of effective and transparent governance system within the country and the promotion of public awareness on governance issues. To this end, the Governance Department runs the following programmes:

(i)the Access to Justice Programme;

(ii)the Africa Peer Review Mechanism;

(iii)the Monitoring and Evaluation Systems; 

(iv)the Human Rights and Democratisation Project; and

(v)the Accountability and Transparency Programme.

The objective, Mr Chairperson, of the programmes undertaken by the department had to contribute towards the improvement of good governance systems in our country, to assess the quality of governance, to inform the people of Zambia about their rights through the creation of an enabling environment for public participation in decision making and ensure accountability and transparency in Public Service institutions through the adoption of governance mechanisms.

Law Development

Mr Chairperson, over the years, the ministry had embarked on extensive law reforms through the Zambia Law Development Commission. The commission is currently undertaking a number of research activities in order to give effect to the policies of the PF Government such as revision of the Penal Code, Criminal Procedure Code, child related legislation and research on customary law and marriages.

Legal Education

The ministry, Mr Chairperson, continues to advance legal education through the Zambia Institute of Advanced Legal Education (ZIALE).  The institute is currently undertaking an expansion programme in order to accommodate additional students from the various private universities in order to meet the increasing demand for legal education in Zambia.

Legal Aid

Mr Chairperson, the ministry will continue its efforts to provide legal representation to the indigent members of our society. In order to achieve this objective effectively, the ministry will establish the offices of public defenders in all the districts of Zambia in order to replace the current legal aid scheme in Zambia with a more effective and responsible system.

Compensation and Awards

Mr Chairperson, one of the challenges that the ministry is currently facing is the huge debt owed to citizens and other litigants in form of compensation and awards. In 2012, the ministry managed to settle some of the Government’s obligations because the whole Budget was Government-funded. I thank the hon. Minister of Finance for this positive response. 

Sir, more than 75 per cent of the annual Budget for the Ministry of Justice goes to compensation and awards with limited financing for operations and the administration of justice. This is unacceptable, and the Government intends to redress the situation by sourcing and allocating adequate funds to compensation and awards, and mainstreaming the management of compensation and awards in order to ensure efficient execution of these payments. We shall also endeavour to work with various Government agencies to reduce the current rate of litigation against the Government. 

Mr Chairperson, in conclusion, I wish to tell this august House that the Ministry of Justice is fully committed to providing legal services to the people of Zambia and, thereby, facilitating the dispensation of justice and promotion of good governance in our country. I, therefore, seek the support of this august House in passing the budget for the Ministry of Justice.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for according me the opportunity to debate the Vote for the Ministry of Justice. I have listened very attentively to the policy statement made by the hon. Minister of Justice on his ministry’s Vote and what it is doing, and intends to do, for the Zambian people in order to enhance justice. 

Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for allowing me to rise on a point of order. I apologise to the hon. Member of Parliament for Monze Central for interrupting his debate. 

Sir, my point of order is on a very urgent matter and serves to provide sufficient safety to our mothers in this country who are due to give birth.

Sir, the University Teaching Hospital (UTH) is a referral hospital. It is the biggest and, probably, the only one of that nature in this country. Many cases, including those of a maternity nature, are referred to the UTH.  Is the hon. Minister of Health in order to comfortably sit in his chair and remain quiet, instead of telling this House and the nation that the UTH maternity department is closed due to non-availability of water, and that it is only open to emergency cases? 

I seek your ruling, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

The Chairperson: My ruling is that, as you have indicated, this is a question of an urgent nature and is important to the nation. However, there are channels through which you can come up with that question so as to give the hon. Minister enough time to come up with an appropriate answer. Please, use that channel and put your concern in writing so that the hon. Minister can have time to respond.

Hon. Mwiimbu may continue.

Mr Mwiimbu:  Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister of Justice mentioned that his ministry would ensure that there was justice for all in this country. I want to inform this House and the hon. Minister of Justice that the perception that has been created in this country is that there is no justice for all. Instead, we have seen a situation in which justice is only accorded comprehensively to those who subscribe to the PF. 

Mr Chairperson, we have seen, with concern, PF cadres and members being treated differently and acting with impunity to the detriment of other of Zambians. We are also aware of situations in which the Ministry of Justice has been quiet when it should have spoken out. There has been discrimination when similar offences have been committed by citizens while PF members are treated differently. We have seen PF cadres demonstrate without notifying the police whereas other members of the public are being denied the right to demonstrate when they are aggrieved. 

Mr Chairperson, justice is supposed to be for all in this country. I implore the hon. Minister of Justice to advise his colleagues in the Government to ensure that the rule of law is upheld. If we do not uphold the rule of law, and there is discrimination, we will find ourselves in a situation in which people will seek alternative justice. We should not be subscribing to what was obtaining in The Godfather, where people sought alternative justice. It is the responsibility of the hon. Minister of Justice to ensure that justice prevails. I do not expect him to be seen as an hon. Minister of injustice. 

Mr Chairperson, we have seen situations in which PF cadres harassed UPND members and, instead of being given the same treatment, they were positively discriminated. They were not taken to court or harassed by the police whereas other members of the public who have committed similar offences are still appearing in court and being harassed under the same so-called law.

Mr Chairperson, it is dangerous to strive the way the PF is doing, and I implore the hon. Minister of Justice to ensure that justice is not only seen, but done for everybody in this country.

Mr Chairperson, we have also noted that infamous people who violated the law and were brought to justice under the leadership of that gallant son of Zambia, the late President Mwanawasa, SC., are moving around Zambia with pride because all their offences have been forgiven, and the ministry is not pursuing these matters. The silence is so loud from the Ministry of Justice. Is it telling the nation that those offences that were committed were only perceived to be offences under the leadership of President Mwanawasa, SC., and not under the current leadership?

Mr Mwaliteta interjected.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, I know that Hon. Mwaliteta fails to appreciate most of the issues that I raise. He must go back to school.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter 

Mr Mwiimbu: Sir, …

Mr Mwaliteta: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: No. I will not grant you the point of order. When you start something and I sit here, quietly, it is not that I am not hearing. So, please, do not provoke the situation.

Continue, please, Hon. Mwiimbu.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, I was saying that those who were appearing and were presumed to have offended the people of Zambia during that period are enjoying full benefits now, and their cases are not being pursued. We have noted, with concern, that those individuals are even being glorified and quoted in various public media as if they were heroes. Are we saying that those offences are no longer offences under the PF Government?

Mr Chairperson, during the reign of President Mwanawasa, SC., those who were perceived to have plundered Government resources were pursued. However, recently, we have noted that the Government is not willing to provide the requisite evidence against those people. What has happened? Are we saying that the period of the late President Mwanawasa is also a lost era, and that what he was doing was wrong? I shudder to think so.

Sir, the other issue that the hon. Minister of Justice has addressed is the Constitution-making process. He has indicated that this process will be people-driven, but has not indicated to this House and the nation whether, in this people-driven process, there will be a referendum. He has not been categorical. In fact, he has been silent. I know that he is usually very quick and clear on issues that affect the nation and, in particular, the PF. However, on this particular one, he is very quiet.

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, as he responds, I want him to categorically state that the PF Government is for a referendum and that his Government will provide the funding. 

Sir, I also wish to bring to the attention of the House the fact that, if we are not careful, the Constitution-making process will be derailed. We are all aware that various sentiments and opinions have been expressed by the leadership of PF on particular Clauses in the Constitution. One thing that my brother-in-law should realise is that, as Secretary General, if he issues a statement and a position on a particular Clause, even if it is just his opinion, it is an instruction to the membership of PF. Even if we decided to have a referendum, it would fail because of positions that have been taken already, and we would have spent a lot of money, to the detriment of this nation.

Sir, I would like to call upon the Government to ensure that a stakeholder’s conference is called to discuss the roadmap on to the Constitution-making process.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Mwiimbu: If we do not do that, whatever we are doing and all our good intentions on the process will be a waste of resources. We will not attain the intended goals. I have also heard from him that the process will only require K115 billion, compared with the colossal sums of money that were spent by the National Constitutional Conference (NCC). However, we have to realise that the technical committee is made up of less than twenty people who are spear-heading this process, yet they are going to gobble K115 billion compared with the NCC, which had more than 600 members deliberating on this process. So, the comparison is not tenable, in my view. The Government is spending too much money on the small number of members of that technical committee.

Mr Chairperson, the other issue that I would like to raise is that of legal reforms. The hon. Minister of Justice is aware that, in our statute books, we have a number of archaic laws. These are laws that offend the Constitution of Zambia and those that are not tenable in a democratic State. I hope that he will ensure that all the laws that have brought problems in this country are repealed or amended to ensure that they comply with the modern democratic dispensation.

Sir, the hon. Minister has also talked about judicial reforms. I do not think that there is anyone on your left who is against the reforms, provided that they are undertaken transparently and with good intentions. 

Mr Chairperson, we are afraid to hear some of the pronouncements that have been made by those in the leadership of the PF Government, which have been targeting certain members of the Judiciary. They cannot be accepted and supported. We are all aware that, for justice to prevail in this country, we need principled men and women. However, the process of facilitating that must be transparent. We do not want the abuse of the process, whereby you want to use the PF Manifesto and Constitution, which states that all members of the Judiciary shall be card-carrying members of the PF.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, …

Mr Kalaba: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, for those who do not know …

Mr Kalaba: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: Order!

The hon. Minister is going to respond. So, please, let us make progress. I do not want to delay the process.

Continue, please.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, the Constitution of the PF very categorically states that all those in the Judiciary or Civil Service will be members of the PF. 

Interruptions 

Mr Mwiimbu: If members of the PF do not know the constitution of their party, then I understand why there is no direction.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions 

Mr Mwiimbu: That is what the Constitution of the PF states.

Interruptions 

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, I am appealing …

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Mwiimbu: Hon. Kampyongo, sit down. You do not know the Constitution.

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, I am appealing to the hon. Minister of Justice to ensure that there is justice in this country. I would also like to appeal to him that the justice system in this country must be blind so that it caters for all the people of this country. I know that, in future, Hon. Kampyongo will seek justice.

The Chairperson: Order!

Why are you mentioning him?

Mr Mwiimbu: I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to add my voice to the debate on the Vote for the Ministry of Justice. 

Mr Chairperson, I will not take much of your time as all I would like to discuss is the Constitution-making process. I listened attentively to the hon. Minister of Justice as he was making the policy statement on his ministry. I got concerned because he mentioned figures such as K115 billion and K52 billion which I have not seen anywhere in the Budget. Therefore, I cannot discuss them as I have not seen them. However, I am going to dwell on the K20 billion that has been provided for in the 2013 Budget.

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister of Justice has not given a clear roadmap as to when we can expect the Constitution-making process to be concluded. During the debate on the President’s Speech, I remember referring to the Official Opening Speech that His Excellency the President made on 21st October, 2011 where he said that he wanted to see the Constitution ready within ninety days. 

However, the only thing that we have seen so far is the constitution of this technical committee with no budget line for all their expenses in 2012. We asked to know how much the technical committee of experts would spend on what they were doing, but we have not yet been told how much is there for them to spend in 2012.

Sir, the hon. Minister of Justice has indicated that with the consultative process that is taking place in the districts and, soon, in the provinces and at the national level, he expects the final Draft Constitution to be ready by June, 2013. However, what will happen after that? We want to know what Zambians should expect from the Government after the final draft is completed by June, 2013. This is the reason we are requesting for a complete roadmap to know when the Government is going to give the people of Zambia the desired Constitution.

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister indicated that the issue of the referendum is not within the mandate of the technical committee, but it is the mandate of the Government. Why then is it that the Government did not provide for the referendum and when is the referendum for the Constitution going to be held? After the final draft Constitution is presented to the Government, it should not take them six months before they make a position on what is to follow. 

Mr Chairperson, we expected the Government to go further to appoint a Referendum Commission within that time so that they could start preparing for the referendum. If the Bill of Rights, which is also going to be amended, requires a referendum, then the Government should have provided funds in the Budget for 2013. By remaining silent on when we are going to … 

The Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours 

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON of Committees in the 
Chair]

The Deputy Chairperson: Before the hon. Member can say a word or two, I noted that when the Chairperson was on his feet, an hon. Member was walking in. The rules of the House do not allow that. 

The hon. Member may continue.

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, before business was suspended, I was saying that the hon. Minister of Justice should be very clear on the roadmap for the Constitution- making process. Let him tell us what happens after June, 2013. When are we going to have the Constitution? We must not be kept in suspense. We need this information.

Sir, the people have taken very keen interest in the Constitution-making process, and I am sure they are listening as we debate. Let me appeal to the civil society and Church to speak in the manner in which they used to over having a new Constitution. They should not be silent. If they have lost interest in the Constitution-making process, then let them say so, but I am sure that this is not the case. Let the voice that we used to hear be heard again. We, as hon. Members of Parliament, are requesting them to start requesting the Government to give the people of Zambia the Constitution as they promised.

Mr Chairperson, I am requesting the hon. Minister to give a clear roadmap, and by roadmap, I mean a clarification on where this K20 billion is going to be spent after June, 2013. Will the activities of the Constitution-making process be silent for the last six months of 2013? All we are asking for is to be informed. Once he does that, we will give him kudos. 

Mr Chairperson, I would like to congratulate his hon. Deputy Minister who answered points of clarification clearly. This is what we expect.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Namulambe: However, when we raise queries and do not receive satisfactory answers, then there is something wrong. I believe the appointing authority must start questioning whether there are right people in these ministries.

Laugher 

Mr Namulambe: I would like to commend the hon. Minister and his team because they were able to give us the answers as demanded. 

Sir, with that commendation, I hope that the hon. Minister can give me the road map for the Constitution-making process.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter 

Mr Bwalya (Lupososhi): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for allowing me an opportunity to add my voice to this debate on behalf of the people of Lupososhi and Luwingu district. 

Mr Chairperson, child justice in this country has had a raw deal. The children have not been given the platform and the right environment for them to receive the correct justice. In this country, we do not have child-friendly courts. All we hear is that the court is now turning into a juveniles’ court and that so and so must move out of the court room. I think it is time that we paid attention to this category of our citizens in this country so that they can also have good and fair justice. Coupled with that, when children are finally found guilty, they are actually subjected to a lot of ill-treatment.

Mr Namulambe: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, I want to apologise to my brother who was debating so well on the Ministry of Justice for disturbing his debate. It is a wonderful flow of debate.

Mr Chairperson, I remember that, a few weeks ago, His Honour the Vice-President assured this House that the Government had given authority to the Food Reserve Agency (FRA) to borrow money to pay the farmers who supplied maize. Later on, the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Livestock said that the Government had given the FRA money to pay the farmers and that the people that had the bank accounts would have money in their accounts. Despite all these assurances, people have been going to the banks and have been bouncing. Now, they are told that by Friday or Monday, if they do not pay for their fertiliser, they will not have it because the distribution would have ended. 

The Deputy Chairperson: What is the point of order?

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, I want to quote the Daily Nation of today, 21st November, 2012. On the first page, there is a headline, “ZNFU Fumes”, and I want to quote what the President of the ZNFU said,

“Mr Zimba said that Government had turned the agriculture sector into a circus because it was not telling the truth regarding the payment of the farmers for the maize they had sold to the FRA, a situation which had now reduced farmers to beggars.”

Mr Chairperson, when the President came to this House, he said that taking the maize without paying for it is not buying. 

Is this Government and the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Livestock in order not to come to this House to give a clear position as to when the farmers are going to be paid because they had indicated that by 20th November, 2012, all the farmers would have been paid? Now, we are not sleeping. Even at night, they are calling to inquire about the same issue. As I speak, the farmers are crying through us. Now, is this Government really in order to keep the farmers waiting for their money without giving clear information on the matter? I need your humble and serious ruling because I am actually crying at the moment.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The humble, but serious ruling is that the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Livestock can come up with a ministerial statement by Friday this week. 

May the hon. Member continue.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bwalya: Mr Chairperson, before I was interrupted, I was saying that even when children are found guilty, they continue being mistreated.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order on my left!

Allow the hon. Member to debate. 

Mr Bwalya: Mr Chairperson, the children are subjected to a lot of issues that traumatise them after the court session or during the court session itself because even the legal fraternity, the lawyers, also have not helped matters. They come on very strongly on these children as they testify in the courts. I think we need to find a way of reforming and ensuring that the children are actually given the justice that they deserve. 

Mr Chairperson, we have the Katombora Reformatory…

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised. I hope we will not be debating through points of order.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Member in order to allege that lawyers are not being helpful over this issue of minors who are appearing in court when the hon. Minister of Justice, the Deputy Chairperson of Committees of the Whole House and I have been in the forefront of assisting children?

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Member, as you debate, take that point of order into account. 

You can continue, please.

Mr Bwalya: Mr Chairperson, the reformatories we send these children to actually transform them into hardcore criminals because of the conditions which they are subjected to. The reformatories are not child friendly. It is, therefore, incumbent upon the Government to look at these places where we send our children so that they can, indeed, be reformatories where a child can go and reform. As it is today, there is nothing to talk about in those places. In fact, it is very difficult for a child to adjust to normal life when he/she leaves the reformatory. I, therefore, wish to appeal to the hon. Minister to, perhaps, work in collaboration with other child welfare organisations to come up with reforms in this particular area.

Sir, there are a lot of cases of people who have been remanded in prison over issues of misdemeanor and they have been there for a long time without trial. This has contributed to the congestion in prisons. It is, therefore, incumbent upon the ministry, as we pass the 2013 Budget, to ensure that we speed up the disposal of cases for all those that are languishing in prison. This also calls for the prosecutors in this country to be very sure that the cases that they are taking to court are credible so that we do not overburden the Judiciary. 

Therefore, you are wasting time for the judges. Instead of them attending to those serious cases, they spend a lot of time trying to counsel the prosecution, so that they can come up with very good cases before they can be presented to the courts of law.

I am glad that the hon. Minister talked about the Legal Aid Department. This department is the fountain of hope for the people of Lupososhi, and Luwingu District, because they are vulnerable and poor. They cannot afford the costs that the legal fraternity demands, because the fees in that area are very high. It is important that as we implement the 2013 Budget, we should try as much possible to decentralise the Legal Aid board and equip that particular office so that it is mobile, and its lawyers are able to attend to those who really cannot afford to pay the legal fees. Most Zambians who require legal representation usually fail to get it. The Legal Aid Department needs to be equipped and given the necessary manpower which must be well numerated. In some instances, we have seen a situation where somebody who is asking for legal aid, is yet again asked to provide fuel for a particular lawyer to go to court. I think, it is important that such matters are seriously addressed in order to ensure that the department is able to represent the vulnerable people adequately.

I thank you, Sir.

_______

ANNOUNCEMENT BY MR DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON

DELEGATION FROM FINLAND

The Deputy Chairperson: Before I call for further debate, I have an announcement to make. Hon. Members, I wish to acquaint the House with the presence, in the Speaker’s Gallery, of the following members of the delegation from the Government of Finland:

Ms Sipilainen Anne, the Leader of Delegation;
Ms Komi Katri, hon. Member of Parliament;
Mr Koskinen Johannes, hon. Member of Parliament;
Mr Packalen Tom, hon. Member of Parliament, and
Mr Suutari Eero, hon. Member of Parliament.

The delegation is accompanied by His Excellency, Anttinen Pertti, the Finnish Ambassador to Zambia. I wish, on behalf of the National Assembly, to receive our distinguished guests, and warmly welcome them in our midst.
_______

Mr Mulusa (Solwezi Central): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for noticing my desperate attempt to present my views on behalf of the people of Solwezi Central and, indeed, the rest of the citizens.

Mr Chairperson, I will not concentrate on the normal understanding of justice, because, I think, Hon. Jack Mwiimbu has eloquently tackled that aspect. I am going to talk about the area of justice which is ignored by the Ministry of Justice and, perhaps, which if carefully looked at, will allow us to live in a normal society, and to take a critical look at ourselves, and especially examine the manner in which we treat ourselves each time we shift positions from being in charge of the Government to the Opposition or vice-versa. I am sure that we will all have the opportunity to be in the Government, in future, so let me call on all of us to expand the mandate of the Ministry of Justice and, perhaps, to educate ourselves so that when we hold critical offices, we shall not be in the forefront in perpetuating injustice in this country.

Mr Chairperson, to that effect, I would like to bring to the attention of the hon. Minister of Justice, including everybody else, that when law is promulgated in this House and the Government refuses to implement it, that is an injustice to those who would have benefited from that law. In this case, I am referring to, Section 136 of the Mines and Minerals Act which stipulates that 40 per cent of the money collected as tax was supposed to be left in the areas where the minerals were extracted. My people from my constituency are suffering. I am sure that most of the hon. Members of Parliament have been to Solwezi. I am sure most of them know the calamity which the mines have brought upon Solwezi.

This Parliament wanted to ameliorate that calamity, but Government after Government refused to implement the required law while people were dying. That is injustice. Where people used to take forty-five minutes to walk from their villages to the town centre, they now take twelve hours because they have to go round, an ever expanding perimeter fence of the mine. That is injustice.

When the President is confirming the appointment of Mr Mutembo Nchito, and says “go after them”, that is injustice. Who is he referring to when he says that, go after them?

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulusa: Mr Chairperson, when the President goes to Luapula Province, and attaches a condition to development, when he tells the people of Luapula that I will build universities and create jobs in this area because you voted for the PF Government, that is injustice.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulusa: Mr Chairperson, Zambians, in 1991, chose multi-party democracy as their option of governance amongst many options which were on offer. The world recognises us for that. When the PF Government tries to reverse that, that is injustice. When the President promises a university per provincial centre, yet builds two in Chinsali, that is injustice.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulusa: Mr Chairperson …

Hon. Opposition Member: Continue.

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, I am really failing to follow the interpretation of justice, as being prescribed by the hon. Member. Is he in order to insinuate that we, the people of Chinsali, who have been given this opportunity to have a university …

Hon. Opposition Member: Two universities.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! 

Mr Kampyongo: Even ten. Is he in order to insinuate that it can only be justice if, probably, the building of universities starts in Solwezi? I need your serious ruling.

The Deputy Chairperson: The serious ruling is that the man is entitled to his opinion.

Mr Mulusa: Mr Chairperson, I thank you. It is always a pleasure to debate when you are in the Chair.

Mr Chairperson, when hon. Members of the Opposition are interrogated on a Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday in that order, but the last day of interrogation when they wish to detain them happens to be on a Friday afternoon so that they can spend the weekend in police custody, that is injustice.

Mr Kapeya: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Hon. Government Member: That is injustice

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

I thought that was justice. Make your point of order.

Mr Kapeya: Mr Chairperson, is Hon. Mulusa in order to claim that when you are in the Chair, you favour the Opposition? I need your ruling.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: The serious ruling is that the Chairperson always strives to be as impartial as he possibly can. If his insinuation was that I am partial, which is denied, he was out of order.

Mr Mulusa: Mr Chairperson, it is your beloved voice that I am taking about. 

Laughter 

Mr Mulusa: Sir, after the election results, we saw massive opposition to the choices of the people. We saw massive petitions. The lessons those of us on your left learnt from those petitions …

Interruptions

Mr Mulusa: Mr Chairperson, I need your protection from those who are expressing ignorance.  

Laughter 

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Let us allow the hon. Member to debate. 

Mr Mulusa: Mr Chairperson, the lessons that we learnt from those petitions are that there are not enough lawyers to go round in this country. Consequently, legal services are very expensive in this country. I can assure you that when we sit down to count the cost of the almost fifty petitions that we had, it is coming close to K25 billion. This is the amount that these hon. Members, now in the Opposition, spent. How can poor people access justice in this country when it is so expensive? 

Mr Chairperson, this leads me to the programme for lawyers at the Zambia Institute for Advanced Legal Education (ZIALE). In this country, it is easier to become a doctor than a lawyer. I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister of Justice to simply promote transparency at ZIALE. We should not have a situation where candidates are merely told that they have failed or passed. People must given an opportunity to understand why they failed. 

Mr Chairperson, the issue of us turning against each other when we change positions must come to an end. I would like to recommend that Parliament sets aside some money for all of us to visit Robben Island so that we might understand the pain that the Africa National Congress (ANC) members went through and how they came out and forgave those who inflicted pain on them. We are wasting a lot of time and energy that should be expended on development. You came into Government without a developmental document. 

Interruptions

Mr Mulusa: You came into Government with a deep desire to punish everyone in MMD. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Shame!

Mr Mulusa: That is injustice. 

Mr Chairperson, the treatment of the accused in this country leaves much to be desired. People are arrested then investigated. Hon. Minister of Justice, this is not justice. The police need to exhaust their investigations before an arrest is made. For example, the Lusaka Chairperson of the UPND has been detained for two weeks and was only charged yesterday. Where is the justice? 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulusa: Mr Chairperson, I would like to call upon the hon. Minister of Justice to ensure that the ministry follows up on the numerous complaints that are taken to the human rights commission. The Judicial Complaints Authourity has got no capacity to do much about these cases. So, they go uninvestigated and there is no solution given to the complainants. 

Sir, I would also like to touch on the issue of police torture. There is no investigation in this country which is carried on without the police inflicting punishment on the accused. The latest case we have is that which we experienced in Mufumbwe where one young man with only one kidney, fresh out of hospital where the other kidney was removed, was arrested. This man had terrible pain inflicted on him when the police commissioner started jumping on the wound. 

Interruptions

Mr Mulusa: I feel that there must be a lot of money set aside by this ministry to educate all our law enforcement agencies on human rights and how to ensure that all Zambians are treated fairly. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! 

Ms Imenda (Luena): Mr Chairperson, I wish to add my voice to the policy statement by the hon. Minister of Justice. First and foremost, I want to begin with the issue of the Constitution- making process. 

The hon. Minister said that the current Constitution-making process is people-driven. I thought that the NCC, which deliberated on the submissions through the Mung’omba, Mwanakatwe and Mvunga Commissions, was also people-driven.  What is new? 

Mr Chairperson, a Motion was brought to this House to amend the Constitution after the conclusion by the NCC. It is that crop, on your right hand side, that rejected the Motion. Their reasoning was that they were not part and parcel of that process. Who stopped them?

Mr Chairperson, I now take it that because they excluded themselves from the last process, they want to, this time round, re-invent the wheel so that they can also benefit financially. 

Interruptions 

Ms Imenda: This so-called people-driven Constitution is gobbling K115 billion before it even goes to the referendum. Right now, the so-called technical committee is busy trotting around the country trying to gather evidence. What evidence is that, which was not in the three constitution making committees?

Laughter 

Ms Imenda: I am really surprised. 

Mr Chairperson, if you divide K115 billion among the committee members, you will notice that the expenditure by each individual is quite colossal. Is there some corruption going on? Perhaps, this committee is making a subscription to the PF Government so that they can carry out some corrupt practices in the electoral process in the looming by-elections because they are busy bribing people in the Opposition so that they join them.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwaliteta: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwaliteta: Mr Chairperson, it is very important to be fair when given the Floor to debate. 

Is the hon. Member of Parliament in order to allege that the PF corrupted MMD hon. Members of Parliament who wanted to resign and join the party? Is she in order, just because she recently lost two councillors in her constituency? I need your serious ruling, Sir. 

The Deputy Chairperson: I must guide that we should not use points of order to debate. Be that as it may, I am very sure that the hon. Minister of Justice will respond to that when he winds up debate.

You may continue, please.

Ms Imenda: Mr Chairperson, before I was interrupted by that point of order, I was saying that this committee that is busy trotting around the country trying to get comments on the so-called ‘people-driven Constitution’ is busy re-inventing the wheel. What is its agenda? Is it about only what its members want to hear? Some comments on issues in the Constitution are being excluded. I must mention that I was called to that Indaba, consultative meeting or whatever it is called, and I asked whether the Barotseland Agreement was included on the agenda, they said it was not. So, I told them that I was not attending.

Laughter

Hon. Member: Oh! No attendance.

Ms Imenda: Mr Chairperson, let us go back to when we went into a one-party State. For those who do not know, I was already born. The late Mr Mainza Chona went round trying to gather the so-called ‘evidence’ to use to justify the creation of a one-party State. We were not allowed to oppose it, but just told to say what we wanted to see in the one-party State. We were told not say that we did not want it because that was not on the agenda. The issue of to be or not to be was not the question. That is what we were told.

Hon. Opposition Members: Oh!

Ms Imenda: So, even this time, I do not know what the agenda of the committee is. It is just what it wants to hear. What it does not want is not on the agenda. So, what kind of people-driven Constitution is being talked about? What evidence is the committee looking for?

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Ms Imenda: It is just wasting money because it knows what it wants to do with this money. We already know.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mwila!

Interruptions

Ms Imenda: Mr Chairperson, let me go back to the issue of the dispensation of justice.

Hon. Opposition Member: Tell them!

Ms Imenda: On the same issue of the so-called ‘people-driven Constitution’, the re-invention of the wheel, the people of Barotseland, those who chose not to hear about it because one important item was missing on the agenda, are alleged to have torn not the actual Constitution, but those documents printed on very poor paper.

Laughter

Ms Imenda: I am sure it was not even they who tore the documents. They should have been torn by the wind because winds can be strong in the Western Province.

Laughter

Ms Imenda: There was a strong wind, Mr Chairperson, which tore those papers. Currently, those people …

Interruptions

Mr Kalaba: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

I advised that we should not debate through points of order. We have to make progress.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: For now, I will not entertain any point of order.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: You may continue, please.

Ms Imenda: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. So, those who were alleged to have torn that piece of paper of very poor quality were rounded up, put in jail and transferred to Kaoma, where relatives cannot visit them. If a lawyer has to visit them, it would be very expensive. The offence they committed is bailable. So, why were they taken to Kaoma?

Mr Kalaba: On a point of order, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah! Sit down.

Mr V. Mwale: Go ahead.

Ms Imenda: Why have they been taken to Kaoma?

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

If you are debating a case that is in court, please, veer away from that subject.

You may continue, please.

Mr Kalaba: Why?

Ms Imenda: My apologies, Mr Chairperson. I will move on.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Livune: But you have said it!

Ms Lubezhi: They have heard!

Ms Imenda: Sir, we are talking about the dispensation of justice, but what we are seeing is the dispensation of injustice.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! Tell them.

Ms Imenda: Sir, since this PF Government came into power, the electoral process is pathetic. The party is busy engaging in electoral malpractices in places …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Ms Imenda: … where there are by-elections.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

I think, let us be serious with the business of the House. The consultations are rather loud. Let us moderate our consultations. If you are not in a position to moderate, you know where the doors are. Go to the foyer and discuss. Please, let us allow the hon. Member to debate.

You may continue, Hon. Imenda.

Ms Imenda: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Before I was interrupted, I was talking about the dispensation of justice, which, in this case, is, really, injustice that is going on. I was about to give an example of the electoral process as it has been since this Government came into power. We have just come from a by-elections and know that the State machinery is using civil servants, such as District Commissioners (DCs), to campaign for the PF. The PF was allowing DCs to give out money, bags of mealie-meal and sugar, and even going to threaten those who were digging canals that, if they did not vote for the PF, they would not be paid their dues. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Shame!

Ms Imenda: Is that justice?

Hon. Opposition Members: No! It is injustice.

Ms Imenda: That is corruption, actually. We even saw the youths from the Office of the President. They were going all over in the night dishing out bags of mealie-meal to headmen so that they share. We know, and that is injustice.

Mr Chairperson, I would also like to talk about ZIALE, where very disturbing things are happening, partly because of the educational system that has come on board of late and partly because of the quality of some graduates from some universities. Maybe, there is a need to seriously review the work of some of these institutions because I cannot understand how, out of 200 students, only five pass. I think that there is a need for a serious review of this issue. Maybe, the quality of some of the graduates from other universities purporting to have law degrees is not, really, good enough for ZIALE standards.

Hon. Member interjected

Ms Imenda: Whatever the case, the hon. Minister of Justice, who is not even listening, …

Hon. Government Members: Mmm! Iwe!

Laughter

Ms Imenda: … should pay attention to the issue of ZIALE. It is very serious.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Imenda: We want a fair dispensation of justice and quality lawyers to represent us. We do not want … I cannot use the word because it will be unparliamentary. So, Mr Chairperson, I think that it is an issue that needs to be looked at.

Sir, before I conclude, I want to warn the PF Government to stop their manoeuvres in the Ministry of Justice.

Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Mr Chairperson, thank for affording me the opportunity to make some comments on the hon. Minister of Justice’s policy statement.

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister made reference to a very important principle in any democratic nation. What he said is that justice is central to our democratisation process. Indeed, that is how it should be.

Sir, democracy and justice are two sides of the same coin. In Latin, they would say justice is a sini qua non of democracy, meaning that democracy would not be there if justice is missing. Therefore, the hon. Minister is shouldering a very important responsibility in our nation.

Mr Chairperson, Zambia is a multi-cultural, multi-ethnic, multi-lingual, ideologically multi-liberal and, above all, multi-party society. That is what defines our democracy. In short, we are, actually, a rainbow nation in which there are differences among ourselves. Therefore, justice requires that we protect our differences, which are, at the same time, the strength of our unity, as a democracy.

Mr Chairperson, it is very important that justice is administered fairly and properly because it is based on a genuine respect for people. Justice is rooted in the quality of being fair, reasonable and appreciating others. Therefore, those who dispense and administer it must adhere to these deep-rooted values because that is where it emanates from.

Mr Chairperson, arrogance is anti-justice. Leaders who display arrogance can never be just.

Laughter

Professor Lungwangwa: Sir, that is what it is. In order to dispense justice, which is deep rooted in respect for other human beings, you have to exercise humility. You have to be humane and respect other human beings because those who have a deep-rooted appreciation of other human beings know that a person is referred to as numina. A human being cannot be reduced to any other being. A human being has to be respected in his or her own right because of being human. That is why we have human rights which are internationally recognised. Therefore, what has been happening in our nation, especially in recent times, is not justice. Justice has been used as a scare-crow to frighten others. People’s fundamental privileges and rights are being trodden upon, and the system of justice is being used to scare people. The freedom of association and the freedom of speech are being trodden upon because people are being arrested. For example, people are being put in cells where they languish and justice is not being dispensed. That is not respect for other human beings. That is why the hon. Minister of Justice carries a very important responsibility and, in the interest of good governance, which is at the centre of democracy, we expect the hon. Minister of Justice to come up with clearly outlined benchmarks of good governance upon which we shall be assessed by our peers, for example, the African Peer Review Mechanism Committee, which reviews our governance record and standing.

Sir, it is incumbent upon the hon. Minister of Justice and his team to educate their colleagues on the benchmarks of good governance, which can be appreciated by every Zambian. That is very important to our democracy, which is young and must be built. You may not agree with what I am saying but, in a democracy, you should defend what I am saying. That was Voltaire, a French philosopher who was one of the pioneering proponents of democracy. You do not have to agree with what a fellow citizen is saying. However, saying it is his or her right and it must be defended. 

Sir, in a democracy, in the spirit of good governance, there should not be barring of meetings, especially meetings where, for example, political leaders would like to meet their people. They must have the freedom to associate and meet their people because that is in line with the basic tenets of good governance. What we have seen in the recent past, whereby political meetings, even in-door ones, are being discouraged and the police is used as a scare-crow against political leaders, is not justice. That is not in line with the development of our democracy.

People should be allowed to associate and to air their political views. The Government may not agree with their views, but it is their right to air them. We want to see the respect of other leaders in our democratic environment. It is extremely important that this principle is adhered to and respected. The responsibility of the hon. Minister of Justice is to advise everybody because he has an important responsibility of shaping our democracy.

Mr Chairperson, it is very important that we look at our democracy beyond what is written in terms of our own persona and character. For example, we should look at the way we perceive leaders because it is our persona and character which will eventually lead to a judgment as to whether we are adhering to the basic tenets of good governance. What we are seeing around does not instill hope in terms of the building of a democracy. We are increasingly seeing the abrogation of the basic tenets of democracy and good governance. That is not what Zambians would like to see. Leaders must be humane and have humility. Arrogance is anti-justice and anti-democracy.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kabimba, SC.: Mr Chairperson, I will start by responding to Hon. Professor Lungwangwa, whose debates I always find very interesting. Invariably, he shares in the ideals of the PF, and I wonder what he is doing on that side.

Laughter

Mr Kabimba, SC: His definitions of justice and democracy are the same definitions that we have in the PF. His theories on these issues are totally at variance with the political party he belongs to. So, I would like to invite him to reconsider his position.

Laughter

Mr Kabimba, SC.: Mr Chairperson, let me move on to thanking my other hon. Colleagues, starting with my brother-in-law, Hon. J. J. Mwiimbu, who debated very well on this issue and, obviously, ending with my dear sister who has left her seat but, I hope, she is listening wherever she is.

Mr Chairperson, one of the commonalities that came from all the debates of hon. Members across that I would like to address is the issue of the Constitution-making process. A lot of questions have been raised by my brother, Comrade Namulambe and others …

The Deputy Chairperson: Normally, here, you address each other as ‘Mister’ and not ‘comrade’.

Mr Kabimba, SC: I withdraw the word, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Gabriel Namulambe …

Mr Nkombo interjected.

Mr Kabimba, SC: Mr Chairperson, I have withdrawn the word.

I want to say this on the Constitution-making process. Firstly, we are committed, as the PF, to a Constitution-making process that shall be driven and derive its legitimacy from the Zambian people. We want a Constitution-making process that shall reflect the will and aspirations of the Zambian people. As the PF, we are just one of the stakeholders in this process. We have up to now restrained ourselves from making comments that would be seen to influence this process. 

Hon. Mwiimbu referred to some of the comments that I have made in my capacity as Secretary-General of the PF. Yes, I have done that, but those comments are intended for PF members.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Kabimba, SC.: I have a duty as Secretary General of the party to speak to our members countrywide. So, those who are not members of the PF, should ignore these comments because they do not apply to them and are not intended for them.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Kabimba, SC.: Mr Chairperson, the roadmap to the Constitution-making process is as follows. I said, in my policy statement, that this process, which is being managed by the technical committee, is expected to come to an end by June, 2013. It is at that stage that we expect the technical committee to handover the final draft document. This document will then come to the Government. We are not going to produce a White Paper. For the first time in the history of the Constitution-making process of our land, there shall be no White Paper issued by the Government to tell the people of Zambia or any sector of this country the views that the Government has taken on this process. We shall, obviously, internally, as PF, have our own position. 

Now, that final document must then lead to a referendum, depending on the structure of the document. It is at that time that a Referendum Commission becomes relevant. We cannot go and set up or envisage the setting up of a Referendum Commission now and start financing or budgeting for it before we see the final document. The questions that are likely to go before the Referendum Commission will be predicated on the structure of the final product. Then, if the people of Zambia decide that we go for a referendum, the referendum will be preceded by a census. After that, all of us will go and campaign to the Zambian people and tell them our views and the best campaigner shall produce the final Constitution. So, the Opposition should get ready for this campaign. However, if the by-elections in Mufumbwe and other places are anything to go by, our colleagues have an uphill battle even in the referendum.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Kabimba, SC.: Mr Chairperson …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Kabimba, SC.: … there is an issue that has been raised regarding the electoral process and allegations have been made that this Government is engaged in acts of corruption. The evidence is far from the truth. Firstly, the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) that is there now is composed of members appointed by our colleagues on your left, apart from the two members that have recently been appointed. 

Mr Chairperson, if, indeed, we did not mean well, we would have disbanded the ECZ immediately after coming into power and put in men and women whom we thought could favour the PF. The fact that we did not do that means that we mean well. We want to get involved in free and fair elections. We want the people to choose the best candidate and political party. This is what happened in the Mufumbwe and other local government elections.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kabimba, SC.: Mr Chairperson, we have lost elections in the past. We know the pain and anguish of losing an election. So, we understand the pain and anguish that our colleagues are going through …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kabimba: … but, to allege acts of corruption when you have not sought the remedies from the courts of law, is most unfair. We also do not speak to the Judges. One of the reasons, without prejudicing the matter that is sub judice, the tribunal on three Judges has not been able to commence its business is that there is a judicial order which we have respected.  How did we end up in that situation if we spoke to the Judges? The evidence on the ground does not support that assertion.  I think it is an unfair and, indeed, malicious allegation.

Mr Chairperson, I would not want to dwell on the theory of disprudence that I have heard from Hon. Mulusa this afternoon on his definition of what justice is. The problem is he needs to write a textbook that can be prescribed in a law school for use so that we can read his theory because it does not tally with the disprudence that I know of in the field of law.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kabimba: It has been alleged, Mr Chairperson, that the K115 billion that has been spent by the Technical Committee under the Constitution-making process is going to members of the Government and officials. I did outline in my speech the various programmes on which this amount of money has been expended, and some of them have nothing to do with the allowances of the technical committee. They include the different consultative processes at the community, district, sector and, indeed, national levels. They also include the publication of the Draft Constitution in seven languages. This is the first time in the history of our country that this has ever been done in the Constitution- making process. We also took into account the disability of those of our colleagues that are not sighted and we have provided for this programme in braille form. 

Interruptions

Mr Kabimba, SC.: We have also provided this in sign language in digital versatile discs (DVDs) and audio versions. All these programmes have been allocated money so that this process is broadly participated. This has been our aim. So, we are proud so far that the Constitution-making process is on course and will give us the results that will be the pride of the Zambian people.

Hon. Imenda compared the Chona Commission to her experience in Mongu when she was told the Barotseland issue was not on the agenda. She said that this is what happened under the Chona Commission. I do not know which report of the Chona Commission she actually read because the truth of the matter is that the Chona Commission carried recommendations by reflecting the submissions of the people of Zambia. The people of Zambia did not want a one-party State. That is contained in the Chona Commission’s report. It was not supplied by the commission. 

Mr Chairperson, I also want to say that, under the current Constitution, Zambia is a Unitary State and shall remain so until the people of Zambia decide otherwise. Let me also say that some of these terminologies that are used in this House do not reflect the unitary statehood of Zambia. I think, as I said last time, we must be very careful that we do not simply patronise our electorates in the constituencies at the risk of misleading the people of Zambia.

On the issue of ZIALE, I think Hon. Imenda covered it very well. I did make comments previously that this would be part of our process of judicial reforms. Again, these reforms are going to be people driven. The judicial reforms that we envisaged are going to take into account the whole justice system. They are not going to be piecemeal. They will take into account the Juvenile Court that the hon. Member for Lupososhi referred to, the penal system of our country, the issue of delayed judgements from our courts of law, and every aspect of the justice system so as to ensure that we have a justice system that is going to serve the people of Zambia well.

Mr Chairperson, I was amazed to hear that we have a justice system now that is just for the PF. This is a very unfair comment. His Excellency the President is on record of having said, even when swearing members of the police force, that they must go out and do their job professionally. I have said, on many occasions, that the police must do their job and ensure that they execute their duties without any form of favour or discrimination against any group of people in our country. If you are aggrieved by the way the police is enforcing the law, you are at liberty to write to the Ministry of Justice, if the matter is administrative or, indeed, to go to court, litigate and get a judgement.

We must also try to separate the issue of legal provisions and enforcements of these provisions. I think the two are separate. The Ministry of Justice is dealing with issues of formulating and drafting the bills that come before this House. The enforcement of these legal provisions ultimately rest with the Ministry of Home Affairs, and I think my colleague last time covered these issues very well.

In winding up my reaction, Mr Chairperson, I want to thank the hon. Members of this House and assure everybody and the people of Zambia out there that we mean well. We would like to have a just society. I do not want too much of these comparisons with the outgone Government like Brutas says in Julius Caesar, a play written by William Shakespeare, “This is not the time to praise Caesar. It is time to bury him.” So, I would not want to dwell on referring to the MMD.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kabimba, SC.: This is time to bury the outgoing team …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kabimba, SC.: … and make sure that the PF leads this country.

Mr Mbulakulima: We will bury you.

Mr Kabimba, SC.: It will be very difficult to bury the PF. This is the time that we should move forward and ensure that all these issues that we are discussing are wrapped up. We want to have a fresh start for this country and have free and fair elections.  However, I want to advise my colleagues to please move forward. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kabimba: Stop mourning about the loss of elections. Like Richard Nixon says, “You shall not know success unless you have known failure.” 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kabimba: So, you shall not know how to win an election unless you have lost one.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 31/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 31/02 – (Ministry of Justice – Attorney General’s Chambers – K241, 793, 479,059).

The Minister of Finance (Mr Chikwanda): Mr Chairperson, I beg to move the following amendment:

(i)    under 04 Civil Litigation Debt Collection and Prerogative of Mercy Unit, Programme: 4015 Court Operations, Activity 006 Legal Consultancy, by the deletion of K500,000,000 and the substitution therefor of K400,000,000; and

(ii)    under 04 Civil Litigation Debt Collection and Prerogative of Mercy Unit, Programme: 4015 Court Operations, Activity 007 Legal Practitioners Disciplinary Committee, by the insertion of K100,000,000.

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

Vote 31/02, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 31/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 31/08 – (Ministry of Justice – Governance Department – K12,243,828,629).

Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4008, …

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

I have indicated that, as far as possible, let us not debate through points of order because time is not on our side. I hope the point of order which you will raise comes within the purview of a proper point of order. 

A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, when winding up, the hon. Minister of Justice informed the House that for the first time, his Government, through the technical committee interpreted the Draft Constitution of the Republic of Zambia in seven local languages. Is he in order to inform the House that they have done that for the first time when, in actual fact, the technical committee has not interpreted any Draft Constitution into any of the seven Zambian languages. What they have done, however, is to make a report on the Draft Constitution in seven local languages? They have never interpreted the Constitution of Zambia. Is he in order to mislead the House?

The Deputy Chairperson: To the extent that you have sufficiently and adequately debated your point of order, 

Hon. Member: You are out of order.

The Deputy Chairperson: You are out of order.

Laughter

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: The point of order is not sustained.

Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4008, Activity 025 – Sector Advisory Group Meetings – K198,000,000. This year’s allocation was K50,000,000. May I know what has caused this particular increase?

Thank you, Sir.

The Deputy Minister of Justice (Dr Simbyakula): Mr Chairperson, this activity is for effective and inclusive policy fora for improved governance in place. The increase is due to the increased number of meetings to be conducted.

Thank you, Sir.

Vote 31/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 44 – (Ministry of Labour and Social Security – K36,826742,452).

The Minister of Labour and Social Security (Mr Shamenda): Mr Chairperson, allow me to express my sincere gratitude for the opportunity to present the policy statement in support of my ministry’s 2013 Budget. From the outset, I wish to pay tribute to hon. Members of this august House for the positive manner they debated my ministerial Budget policy statement last year. This is a reflection of the appreciation of the important role that labour plays in the social economic development of our country.

Mr Chairperson, the mandate of my ministry is centred on creating an enabling environment through implementation of policies and programmes as well as enforcement of laws to ensure that the labour market operates efficiently and effectively. 

However, as this august House is aware, the Zambian labour market has for a long time been beset by various challenges. I wish to point out a few areas of concern that hon. Members of this House, especially ourselves on the right raised regarding the operations of the Ministry of Labour and Social Security when we were in the Opposition. 

  Our concerns at the time included those of our colleagues who have remained on your left side of the House.  These concerns were as follows:

(i)outdated labour legislation;

(ii)rampart casualisation of labour;

(iii)poor wages and conditions of employment;

(iv)lack of labour market information;

(v)poor work culture; and

(vi)low labour productivity.

  Mr Chairperson, in the past one year that I have led the ministry, we have worked tirelessly to address these issues. I am delighted to highlight some of the things that we have achieved.

  Sir, as regards the comprehensive revision of legislation, our review of the record of proceedings of this House for the years 2008 to 2011, shows that hon. Members who were on your left at that time, made repeated calls for the Government to review labour legislation and bring it in cynic with the prevailing socio-economic dispensation.

  Mr Chairperson, I am glad to report that the revision of the laws was one of the priorities for the past year. With the help of the International Labour Organisation (ILO), we engaged a consultant to deal with this and the process is now at an advanced stage.

  Sir, with regard to curbing casualisation of labour, the practice of casualisation is very rife in our country. A number of factors can be attributed to this. They include the prevailing high unemployment and under-unemployment levels which make job seekers susceptible to abuse by some unscrupulous employers; loopholes in the current labour laws; inadequate enforcement of the law due to capacity challenges in the ministry; and lack of awareness of the provisions of the laws among workers due to inadequate or lack of workers educational programmes.

  Mr Chairperson, it is expected that once the law relating to engagement of casual labour is reviewed, it will greatly contribute to arresting this vice. In order to strengthen law enforcement capacity, the ministry has just procured eight motor vehicles which will be used for labour inspections.

  Mr Shamenda drank water.

  Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

  Mr Shamenda: Mr Chairperson, regarding the problem of wages and conditions of service, as hon. Members of the House are aware, in July 2012, we issued new statutory instruments that revised the minimum wages and conditions of employment for general, shop and domestic workers. Of course, we were taken to court over this matter and I am glad that the court has settled this to the satisfaction of the Government.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Shamenda: The Zambia Federation of Employers (ZFE) has since accepted the ruling. 

Sir, of the eight issues which were raised by the ZFE, the court dismissed six and only directed me to attend to two. The two relate to exempting those employers which have running collective agreements with trade unions and the second is that I should attend to the appeal that was lodged to my office by the ZFE. Fortunately, the ministry had already made a decision on these two issues even before the judgment was made. For instance, way before the ZFE took the matter to court, the Zambia National Farmers Union (ZNFU) made an appeal to me and I gave them relief to consider the minimum wages at the time when their negotiations were going to take place at a later stage.

  Mr Chairperson, regarding the issue of attending to the ZFE appeal, the only thing that prevented us from attending to it was because the case was in court.

  Sir, I wish to take this opportunity to state that the Statutory Instruments on minimum wages do not apply, as it was being misunderstood, to those groups of workers whose conditions of employment are determined through the process of collective bargaining. With regard to those cases where certain wages of protected workers are below the stipulated minimum wages, the unions and employers have been advised to take this into account when conducting new negotiations.

  Mr Chairperson, in order to improve the system of setting minimum wages, we decided to adopt a sector-based system for setting wages. To operationalise this, we visited South Africa and Kenya to learn how they manage their sector-based minimum wage systems, and have since proposed a new mechanism that will be effected next year.

  Sir, as regards provisions of labour market information, our colleagues who are currently sitting on your left side of the House, …

Hon. MMD Member: You are part of us.

Laughter

Mr Shamenda: … unfortunately, temporarily with me here …

Laughter

Mr Shamenda:… because of space, had, in 2010, shot down a Private Member’s Motion that sought to compel the Government to make available comprehensive labour market information on a regular basis. They said that it was going to be embarrassing to the Government. However, this Government shall never be embarrassed by showing the true statistics of what is pertaining in our country.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shamenda: Mr Chairperson, to show our commitment to provision of up to date labour market information, we have just finalised data collection for the year 2012 Labour Force Survey and expect preliminary survey results by March 2013.

Sir, this programme is very important to us because it is by having a strong labour market information system that will be able to assess how many jobs we will be creating on annual basis, sector by sector.

Mr Chairperson, regarding improving work culture and labour productivity, as part of the national strategy on industrialisation and job creation, my ministry commenced the exercise of establishing a labour productivity measurement system. This will respond to the chronic concern of poor work culture as labour productivity will be measured on sector by sector and promotion programmes put in place.

Sir, despite the achievements, a number of challenges were encountered. These were in the following areas:

(i)inadequate equipment such as vehicles for labour inspections;

(ii)dilapidated infrastructure, and in some cases, the infrastructure in terms of labour offices is non-existent;

(iii)inadequate number of labour inspectors and officers to reinforce labour laws;

(iv)inadequate workers education programmes to sensitise workers on rights at work; and

(v)lack of observance of labour standards, especially, in the informal sector.

Mr Chairperson, the budgetary allocation to my ministry has been increased from the K27.3 billion in 2012 to K36.8 billion for 2013, reflecting a percentage increment of 34.4. In terms of the policy for 2013, we intend to focus on the following programmes:

(a)    continuation of capacity building. We shall focus on improving our capacity so that we improve service delivery. Capacity building will be in the following areas:
    
(i)rehabilitation of dilapidated infrastructure and building of new offices where they do not exist;

(ii)procurement of motor vehicles to enhance labour law enforcement;

(iii)development of a ministerial strategic plan with a new vision and mission statement;

(iv)putting in place relevant policies of the PF; and

(v)staff recruitment and training of existing members of staff; and 

(b)    enhancement of employment promotion programmes. In order to improve access to the labour market for job-seekers, the ministry will embark on a programme to establish public employment exchange services. These will perform the following functions:

(i)registration of job-seekers and employers;

(ii)providing career counselling and guidance services;

(iii)matching and placing of job-seekers with prospective employers; and

(iv)collection of statistics on labour demand and supply.

Sir, the public employment exchange service will initially be established in the ten provinces. Furthermore, the ministry will implement the 2012 to 2015 Decent Work Programme. This will be linked to the National Strategy on Industrialisation and Job Creation adopted by the Government to ensure the promotion of decent work. 

Mr Chairperson, in order to reduce the wanton violation of labour laws, we will intensify our awareness programmes through the press, radio, Internet, seminars and workshops, and other forms media.

Mr Chairperson, in relation to improving general industrial relations management, we shall adopt a proactive approach to our industrial relations practices to fore-stall labour-related conflicts. In this regard, we have adopted the following measures:

(a)setting up a public relations unit that will improve communications with stakeholders and the general public;

(b)setting up a legal unit that will, among other functions, provide representation in administrative and judicial proceedings and deal with international labour standards;

(c)holding regular meeting with Chief Executive Officers (CEOs) and their directors of human resource to discuss industrial relations matters in our country;

(d)collaborating with Airtel Zambia Limited to introduce a toll-free line to facilitate communication with people, particularly those areas far from our offices;

(e)collaborating with institutions like the Jesuit Centre for Theological Reflection (JCTR) on labour market research; and 

(f)closely collaborating with the Zambia Institute of Human Resource Management (ZIHRM) to ensure that only qualified Zambians are employed as human resource personnel in companies.

Mr Chairperson, to this end, the Cabinet Memorandum to amend the Zambia Institute of Human Resources Management Act with a view to strengthening it has been prepared. The memorandum is already in circulation and we expect hon. Members of this House to support it once it is tabled.

Mr Chairperson, to enhance the management of labour productivity, the ministry will improve its product measurements and promotion programmes as a way of changing the current negative work culture. 

Mr Chairperson, there is a need to strengthen social dialogue as it promotes consensus-building and democratic involvement among the main stakeholders in the management of the labour market. My ministry intends to hold regular Tripartite Consultative Labour Council (TCLC) meetings to discuss various on-going programmes and endorse new proposals. The ministry will also strengthen the operations of the TCLC to make it a more efficient and effective social dialogue forum.

Mr Chairperson, the ministry will continue with the work of comprehensively reviewing existing social security system. These reforms are focused on rationalising the operations of the public pension schemes, such as the National Pensions Scheme Authority (NAPSA) and Workers Compensation Fund (WCF), and we have progressed in some of these areas. For instance, the Cabinet Memorandum to amend the Workers Compensation Fund Act is currently in circulation. Unlike the others, we shall seek the support of the hon. Members of this august House for this endeavour. For many years, people have been subjected to meagre pensions, particularly those on the WCF system, in which people get as little K50 as a monthly benefit. 

Sir, we are also working with Cabinet Office in reviewing the Public Service Pensions Fund (PSPF) and the Local Authorities Superannuation Fund (LASF) activities intended to extend social security coverage to workers in the informal sector, who are in the majority in our country.

Mr Chairperson, the Ministry Labour of Social Security will remain devoted to the creation of flexible, efficient and effective labour market systems that promote national productivity, employment creation and enforcement of workers’ rights. I, therefore, expect support from the hon. Members of this august House during the debate of my ministry’s 2013 budget in order for it to effectively execute its mandate for the good of our people.

Lastly, I wish to echo the statement I made in October, during the debate of His Excellency the President’s Speech to this House, which was that hon. Members of the august House should take interest in labour issues in their constituencies. I would like to pay tribute to Hon. Nkombo, who is always with us in his constituency whenever we are dealing with industrial disputes. Investors operate in the constituencies represented by the hon. Members of this House. It is, therefore, my belief that hon. Members are the best inspectors we can have are ourselves.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Livune (Katombola): Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank you for giving an opportunity to the people of Katombola Constituency and Kazungula District … 

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1815 hours 1830 hours.

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the Chair]

Mr Livune: Mr Chairperson, before business was suspended, I was thanking you for the very rare opportunity for the people of Katombola, through me, to add their voice to those supporting this very important ministry in our nation. 

Sir, it is important that we all contribute effectively to efforts aimed at reducing the differences that arise in the course of trying to achieve what we want, in terms of productivity. Labour is a very important factor of production, but the interesting part is that the people who are responsible for labour are dealing with other people who think. It is, therefore, difficult to deal with an individual who might be thinking faster than yourself or vice versa. It is very important to continue pursuing avenues that bring about harmony and increased productivity. Therefore, it is very important that this ministry is supported. 

Mr Chairperson, some of us, who were in the industry before coming to this House, have lamented for a long time that this ministry should be re-classified as an economic one, rather than the social one that it is currently because of its very important nature. This ministry has suffered a lot, in terms of availability of the resources required for it to discharge its mandate. No one in the production circles in this Republic would make the required profits without ensuring that labour provides the much required outputs. Regardless of class, everyone looks up to labour to do the needful. I will endeavour to explain a little about avenues that can help us achieve the intended objectives. 

Sir, labour is a non-partisan issue, and all of us have to address it. I want to start with issues of litigation. Courts make decisions in which there may be a winner and a loser. At the end of the day, however, there will still be a relationship to look after.  

This goes to the Government versus employers and the Government versus the labour movement. It is important that we try and avoid, many a time, these issues of going to resolve our problems in court. So, we may continue to dialogue and consult, regardless of the time that we take, as long as both parties take up the give and take approach.

Sir, there is a woman outside the court buildings who is carrying something that I do not know what our colleagues the lawyers call it, who, I think, is blind to signify that the law is blind, and can be passed in any direction. Therefore, there is also the personal element in us which may, sometimes, be difficult to control. We look forward to employing our people, at the same time we look forward to the Government playing a very important referee role.

While the Government has a challenge of ensuring that the workers are protected, the employer also has to ensure that the playing field is leveled. When the employer complains, he must be given a platform to be listened to. At the end of the day, it is the same employer who is going to employ. Therefore, it is important that we continue to dialogue and ensure that we promote the peace that is required.

Mr Chairperson, as said by the hon. Minister, I have in mind a matter in court which has been put off. I am hoping that we can continue to harness that relationship and ensure that we get to the working table together with our colleagues in the federation of employers.

It is not my wish that we should have a lot of negative reactions from the employers because, as the hon. Minister assured us, they have accepted the judgment. I hope we can continue in that regard, and ensure that a long-term solution of the matter that took us to court is brought to a peaceful ending.

Sir, I want the hon. Minister to take a very serious interest in matters involving the Government and unions because, as I speak, I am sure there could be a number of cases pending at the ministry for various reasons. This, basically, calls for the involvement of the trade union management by the Ministry of Labour and Social Security. I want to implore the ministry to ensure that the friction between the labour unions and the Government is reduced or eradicated completely, because this is not healthy for the workers.

I am aware that in the industry, there are, currently, some unions that are failing to hold their annual conferences because they hide in the pretext that there are still legal matters between them and the Government. Let me call upon the Government to quickly get rid of such unnecessary issues that do not promote industrial harmony. I want the Government to bear in mind that when there are these issues in the national unions, the workers whose interests are supposed to be looked after, have nowhere to run to, because there seems to be a battle between the Government and the national unions.

Therefore, as I said, it is important that we continue to dialogue in order to promote peace in these institutions. The Government must also ensure that these national unions comply with the provisions of the Acts that bring them into existence. It is very important to do that and it calls for the inspectorate wing of the Ministry of Labour and Social Security to ensure that these issues are sorted out. Once this is done, we will see that the workers will become happy.

Mr Chairperson, we may go further to ensure that in the said labour reforms that are coming, we will see a serious reflection of the legislation that exists.Today, some of the laws that govern the labour unions are a hindrance. Certain requirements do not allow workers to form unions in some institutions. As a result, there is pandemonium in the industry. Most of the issues to do with labour end up being resolved by the ministry because of lack of unions.  

Mr Chairperson, because of privatisation, the number of workers in institutions has drastically reduced. The law, on the other hand, demands that for a union to be registered,an institution should have, at least,twenty-five workers. However, you will find that an institution only has ten people. What are they supposed to do? There must be mechanisms for these institutions to be able to have their own unions and solve their own problems. We can only rely on the hon. Minister to help in this regard. Help us so that we get rid of these issues. 

Mr Chairperson, the definition of management is a problem in the industry. There are a lot of non-decision making managers masquerading in management positions when they should be in a union. These are issues that rock the industry today. We, therefore, need to ensure that this law, which clearly defines who a manager is, is complied with. This is very important. 

I also want to talk about a matter which the ministry is perceived to condone in some areas. I am talking about labour inspectors in various localities of our country. Our people are faced with challenges. When some of them write to the Labour Department alleging that our labour inspectors are corrupt because they connive with employers at the expense of the workers. It is, therefore, important that our hon. Minister looks into this matter so that our people can have the confidence to walk into a labour office and put across the matter of interest to the public. This will reduce the problems that our people are faced with. 

Mr Chairperson, I want to end my debate with a very important matter which the hon. Minister referred to, and this is social security. Hon. Minister, I look forward to these reforms. However, it is important that we do not destroy well-performing institutions. Whatever we do in social security reforms, we must ensure that we bring out the good and cure the mischief. 
As stated earlier, the payments by the Workers’ Compensation Fund Control Board of K50, in some cases, do not really make sense. I would like to request that these payments are speedised…

Laughter 

Mr Livune: … so that our people who find themselves in those situations get relief. 

Mr Chairperson, I am wondering why my colleagues do not want to speedise these issues …

Laughter

Mr Livune: … so that our members get the much sought after relief. 

It is extremely important that these institutions are dealt with. I do not know why they are against looking at these very important matters. These are thorns in the industry. Truly speaking,the Workers’ Compensation Fund Control Board benefits are nothing to write home about. It is, therefore, very important that the hon. Minister, as he proceeds, ensures that this matter is looked at. He has my full support because I have been a victim of this institution. 

Sir, may I, please, be protected from the hon. Members on your right. I am wondering whether my debate is above them or what.

Laughter 

Mr Livune: Mr Chairperson, as I conclude,I want to ask the hon. Minister to continue working for the people of Zambia. As I said labour is non-partisan. Let us continue on this path because we are not far from achieving our goal. . 

I thank you, Sir. {mospagebreak}

Mr Shamenda: Mr Chairperson, thank you. This silence says a lot. It means that we are on the same page.

Sir, I would like to thank the hon. Member of Parliament for Katombola for his contribution. When we, in the PF immediately came into Government, we turned the Ministry of Labour and Social Security into an economic ministry. That is why the hon. Minister of Finance has given us support in a lot of issues because there is a lot that needs to be done.

Mr Chairperson, in the past, some members of staff who were being transferred from other ministries to come to the Ministry of Labour and Social Security used to cry and ask what they had done. They thought it was a dumping ground. However, with this type of support, I would like to assure the House that we shall definitely perform. We are working on a new vision and a new mission statement. Therefore, we would like all of us who are workers in one way or the other, including Members of Parliament, to participate so that we can be able to particularly look at issues of productivity. We can only develop if we are able to produce.

Sir, there are a number of issues that have been raised by the hon. Member of Parliament for Katombola, I would not agree with you more. The issue of the court case with the employers, I think to some extent it has cleared quite a good number of issues. It is good within a house sometimes to get somebody else to help you to understand certain issues. The judgement has really cleared a few perceptions which other people held. Some people thought that probably the ministry was supposed to run on a tripartite type of arrangement. The minister cannot move unless he consults X. They were confusing what advice and consultation means. So, I think it has helped and I would like to assure you that I personally, and my colleagues in the ministry, shall not hold a grudge against anybody. We do not personalise issues. We choose friends, but do not choose people to work with. As far as we are concerned in some cases, we believe that a friend’s frown is better than a fool’s smile because, we would rather differ with a friend on principle so that we are able to come up with a better product.

Therefore, I would like to assure you that the employers are very much welcome to our offices. Even during the time when the case was in court, we were discussing with a good number of them because these are not personal issues.

Mr Chairperson, on labour law reforms, I would like to assure you that we shall need the input of the hon. Members.

Sir, on the issue of labour inspection, as you said, there is a perception that the labour inspector, are corrupt. However, I wish to state that corruption is a national cancer. They do not operate in a vacuum. So, we have to work together to clean the system. As the hon. Minister of Justice indicated, if you have a few cases of corruption and any evidence, bring them forward so that we can sort them out.

Social security belongs to all of us. Once again, I would like to thank the House for its support.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 44/01 – (Ministry of Labour and Social Security – Headquarters – K10,063,741,280)

Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5075, Activity 001 – Services to Ministers and Permanent Secretaries – K1,400,000,000. Last year, we had an allocation of K700,000,000, next year there is a proposal to double that to K1,400,000,000. What is the reason for that doubling?

The Deputy Minister of Labour and Social Security (Mr Mbulu): Mr Chairperson, this money is needed to pay for services as the hon. Minister, hon. Deputy Ministers and Permanent Secretary locally and internationally. As the hon. Member of Parliament Dr Kazonga may be aware, we were operating with one hon. Deputy Minister, but now we have two.

Mr Mbulakulima (Chembe):  Mr Chairperson may I have clarification on Programme 5001, Activity 019 – Transport Management – K830,885,368. This activity has a very substantial amount, meaning that, it could also be a danger to the third party. Going by the Government standard, insurance is almost compulsory. I have never seen the insurance component there. Why is that so? May I also have clarification on Programme 5009, Activity 002 – Audit queries and public accounts – K200,000,000. The Government has increased the allocation from K20,000,000 in this year’s Budget to K200,000,000 in next year’s Budget. I would like to know what has necessitated this gigantic jump.

Mr Mbulu: Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank the hon. Member for that question. I would advise the hon. Member to also look at Programme 5079, Activity 001 – Transport Management – Nil, under where it was initially provided for in excess of K1,000,000,000 but this programme has been brought down to K830,885,368 because there is no Government policy that transport will be centrally provided by the Ministry of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication. On insurance, I would like to inform the House that Insurance is generally provided for under Central Administration.

Sir, on Programme 5009, Activity 002 – Audit queries and public accounts – K200,000,000, we have done our extrapolation and our findings were that this activity was under funded in the 2012 Budget. So, we are moving towards being realistic as opposed to being academic.

I thank you, Chairperson.

Mr Mufalali (Senanga): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5003, Activity 008 – Long Term Training – K315,000,000. Under the same programme, Activity 023 – Training – K65,459,891. What is the difference between the long term training and training, and what long term is this since we approve the Budget every year?

Mr Mbulu: Mr Chairperson, I will start by clarifying the distinction between long term training and training. Long Term training refers to a training that exceeds a period of six months. So we are talking about people who undertake courses pertaining to certificates, diplomas and degrees. This will require a period of six months going upwards. Training refers to courses of a shorter tenure which is below six months. This may include courses in computers and entrepreneurship courses. These are basically the two distinctions although, the catchment could be broader than what I have said. However, in terms of the provisions that we have in the Budget, this money for long term training is intended to pay for tuition fees, travel and other expenses that officers undertaking such courses may require. For short term training, the money is equally required to pay tuition fees, travel and subsistence as the case may be. When it comes to the statistics that the hon. Member has requested for, these could be made available later. We have statistics of how many people we train on a yearly basis.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Livune: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on page 606, Programme 5002, Activity 007 – Labour Day Celebrations – K130,750,000; Activity 701 – Youth Day Celebrations – K90,000,000; Activity 702 – Africa Public Service Day – K72,000,000; and Activity 703 – National Agriculture and Commercial Show/Trade Fair – K163,000,000. I notice that, just like in the budgets of other institutions that we have approved, Secretaries’ Day is missing among these activities. Why is this the case?

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Minister, Secretaries’ Day is missing under that programme.

Mr Mbulu: Mr Chairperson, Secretaries Day has been taken care of under Programme 5001 – General Administration – K1,453,885,368.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, on page 618, Programme …

The Deputy Chairperson: We have not reached that far. We are dealing with Vote 44/01, which goes up to page 608.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, I am in a hurry to support …

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: The hurry is much appreciated.

Hon. PF Members: Hamiyanze was right.

Vote 44/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

VOTE 44/02 – (Ministry of Labour and Social Security – Labour Department – K6,875,379,629).

Mr Mulomba (Magoye): Mr Chairperson, I am looking on page 609, Programme 5002, Activity 038 – ILO Conference/Governing Body meetings – K1,319,200,000. In 2012, we allocated K300 million to this activity but, for next year, it has increased to K1.3 billion. What has necessitated this difference?

Mr Mbulu: Mr Chairperson, this money is intended to enable us to attend International Labour Organisation (ILO) Governing Body Meetings to be held in March, June and November. The positive variance is meant to enable us have adequate representation at the conference. I further wish to clarify that, at ILO, we have more than sixteen committee meetings, as stipulated in the periods that I mentioned earlier. However, for a long time, we have been represented, maybe, in only one committee and missed out on the other fifteen. 

Mr Chairperson, I thank you. 

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Chairperson, I am also on page 609, Programme 5069, Activity 008 – Industrial Relations Management – K400,000,000. Why is there such a big increase, from K140 million to K400 million? I also seek clarification on page 610, Programme 5069, Activity 005 – Labour Migration Management – K50,000,000. I do not know whether this activity is coming to a close because the reduction seems to be extremely sharp. 

Mr Mbulu: Mr Chairperson, the K400,000,000 under Programme 5069, Activity 008, is needed to effectively and efficiently manage industrial relations between employers and employees and their representatives. The increase is meant for a wide coverage in terms of industrial relations management. So, like I said earlier, the Ministry is being practical. In quantitative terms, our practicality translates into these figures.

Sir, the K50,000,000 under Programme 5069, Activity 005, is needed to manage local and expatriate labour. The negative variance of K203 million is due to one of the activities, Zambianisation and Inspections, which was budgeted for under this activity in 2012, but has been moved to Programme 5069, Activity 012.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on page 609, Programme 5000, Activity 005 – Other Emoluments – Nil. Where have the other emoluments moved to? There is nothing here. Secondly, on Programme 5001 – Activity 003 – Office Administration – K245,400,000, there is an increase of over 100 per cent. What has triggered that?

Mr Mbulu: Mr Chairperson, the allocation on Programme 5000, Activity 005 – Other Emoluments is needed to pay for fixed allowances, such as leave travel benefits, and flexible and retention allowances in the Labour Department. The negative variance of K95 million is because the activity has been budgeted for under Programme 5000, Activity 005, in the Human Resource Department. The K245,400,000 allocated to Programme 5001, Activity 003 – Office Administration, where the hon. Member is concerned about this positive variance, is needed to cover administrative costs to ensure the smooth operation of the department. The variance is again a realistic figure because the activity was under-funded in the 2012 Budget.

Thank you, Sir.

Vote 44/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 44/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 Vote 44/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 44/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 44/06 – (Ministry of Labour and Social Security – Social Security Department – K4,102,418,053).

Mr Mwiimbu:  Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5005, Activity 110 – Retirees Welfare Bureau – Nil. The caring MMD Government …

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: … used to provide money for the Retirees’ Welfare Bureau. I have noted that the 2013 Budget has completely ignored the plight of the retirees. What has necessitated the abandonment of the retirees?

Mr Mbulu: Mr Chairperson, there has been no abandonment. The hon. Member may wish to know that this money is needed to facilitate nationwide studies in conjunction with the Retirees Welfare Bureau of Zambia for the development of policies for the retirees and aged. The activity that he refers to has been budgeted for under a different programme which is Programme 5069, Activity 700 – Pre and Post Retirement Management –K100,000,000 as well as Programme 5005, Activity 239 –  Social Pension Design Unit –K100,000,000.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Livune: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5069, Activity 007 – Social Security Reforms – K1,000,000,000. This year, there was a provision of K1,216,922,006. Why is therea reduction in the year when we are looking forward to reforms in the social security sector?

Mr Mbulu: Mr Chairperson, admittedly, there is a negative variance. Hon. Livune may wish to know that this money is needed for undertaking social security reforms, including actuarial studies of some schemes. The variance is due to the fact that the actuarial studies will, fortunately, be co-financed with other partners who have already been identified.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5069, Activity 701 – Maternity Protection – K218,786,006. May I know who the beneficiaries are and how this maternity protection works? Is it a new activity?

Mr Mbulu: Mr Chairperson, this money, with a positive variance in excess of K218 million, is needed to facilitate the ratification of the International Labour Organisation Convention on Maternity Protection. It will require a lot of extensive and intensive consultation. 

Thank you, Sir.

Vote 44/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 27 – (Public Service Management Division – K680,791,630,353).

The Vice-President (Dr Scott): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me the Floor to make the Policy Statement on the 2013 Budget Estimates for the Public Service Management Division (PSMD).

Sir, the PSMD, in the Office of the President, is charged with the overall responsibility of human resource management in the Public Service. The mandate of the division is derived from Gazette Notice No. 183 of 2012 on Portfolio and Statutory Functions of Government Ministries and Departments.

Mr Chairperson, the specific portfolio functions of the division are as follows:

(i) Public Service management; 

(ii)human resource management and development; and

(iii)strategic and performance management services.

Mr Chairperson, the PSMD’s mission statement is:

“To provide strategic policy direction and leadership in the management of human resources in the Public Service for enhanced service delivery.”

Sir, in executing its mandate, the division undertakes the following key functions:

(i)recruitment;

(ii)placement and separation;

(iii)human resource management and development;
(iv)human resource information and planning;

(v)formulation and interpretation of terms and conditions of service;

(vi)Payroll Management andEstablishmentControl (PMEC); and

(vii)industrial relations and labour matters.

Mr Chairperson, in 2012, the division executed a number of programmes some of which are as follows:

(i)it facilitated the recruitment and placement of human resources across the Public Service. To this effect, over 3,389 cases of appointments, confirmations, transfers, promotions and acting appointments were processed;

(ii)itupdated the human resource database through the collection of data. In this regard, the division has uploaded 108,406 human resource data on the Human Resource Information and Planning System.

(iii)theunit institutionalised performance management packages in eighteen out of the twenty-two ministries and six of the fifteen Government institutions.

(iv)it developed and installeda computer-based human resource training and development information system for monitoring and evaluating training and development programmes implemented in the Public Service.

(v)it decentralised the PMEC System to six ministries and undertook a feasibility study in all the districts in order to ascertain the possibility of decentralising the PMEC System to the district level. The feasibility study revealed, in general, that the PMEC System can be decentralised to most districts.

(vi)the unit facilitatedthe separation of over 2,500 Public Service employees who were retired on attainment of statutory retirement age and other reasons for retirement.

(vii)it conducted the job evaluation exercise to determine the relative worth of all jobs and ensure that employee remuneration is related to the job and to performance. The exercise will result in the creation of a new salary and grading structure for the Public Service. In other words, it is ongoing.

(viii)it commenced the harmonisation and rationalisation of salaries and conditions of service for the mainstream Civil Service,grant-aided institutions, defence and security wings, local authorities and public universities. The harmonisation and rationalisation of salaries will result, eventually, in one single salary structure for the whole Public Service.

(ix)it facilitated negotiations between the Government and Public Service unions to review salaries or wages and conditions of service for the Public Service and classified daily employees. This resulted in improved salaries and conditions of service.In so doing, putting more money in civil servants’ pockets through the 15 per cent salary increment, 20 per cent housing allowance, fuel and transport allowance.This is an addition to other transport measures which were implemented which have resulted in the reduction in the misuse of Government vehicles.

(x)it commencedthe development of group funeral insurance and social health insurance scheme …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

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HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

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MOTION

ADJOURMENT

The Vice-President (Dr Scott): Mr Chairperson, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

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The House adjourned at 1917 hours until 1430 hours on Thursday, 22nd November, 2012.

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