DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE SECOND SESSION OF THE ELEVENTH ASSEMBLY

Thursday, 22nd November, 2012

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

________

ANNOUNCEMENT BY MR SPEAKER

THE DISASTER MANAGEMENT AND MITIGATION UNIT ORIENTATION WORKSHOP

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to inform the House that the Office of the Vice-President, Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU), will conduct an orientation workshop for all hon. Members of Parliament on the operations of the department on Monday, 26th November, 2012, in the Auditorium at Parliament Buildings at 0930 hours. I, therefore, urge all hon. Members to attend this important workshop. 

Thank you.

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QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

BURSARIES

271. Mr Chisala (Chilubi) asked the Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education:

(a)whether the Government had any plans to extend bursaries under the Bursaries Committee to civil servants; and

(b)if not, how the Government intended to assist civil servants meet the financial requirements to continue with their higher education.

The Deputy Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication (Professor Willombe): Mr Speaker, the Government has no plans to extend bursaries under the Bursaries Committee to civil servants because of limited funds. The support is strictly offered to school leavers who should have been accepted at the two universities, namely, the Copperbelt University and the University of Zambia, at the time of applying.

Sir, the Government does not intend to assist civil servants meet their financial requirements to continue with higher education because, as employees, they have training programmes provided for within their departments or the Department of Human Resource Development (DHRD). This, therefore, implies that they can access higher education through their departments.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chisala: Mr Speaker, why does the Government continue assisting the students at the University of Zambia (UNZA) and the Copperbelt University (CBU) who, in some cases, do not even complete their studies and, as a result, the money goes to waste? 

Professor Willombe: Mr Speaker, students from the two universities apply for support from the Bursaries Committee. Once the bursary is given to them, unless they fail or decide to leave the university, we continue to support them.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lufuma (Kabompo West): Mr Speaker, I note, with sadness, that the bursaries are only awarded to those applying to UNZA and the CBU. There is a third public university, which is Mulungushi. Why are the students there not assisted with bursaries?

Professor Willombe: Mr Speaker, Mulungushi University is treated as a separate entity and they are on a programme to wean themselves off Government support.  

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Mr Speaker, my question has lapsed.

Mr Speaker: Lapsed or overtaken?

Laughter

Mr Mutelo (Lukulu West): Mr Speaker, I would like to take advantage of this question. In Lukulu, I have many poor people and Grade 12s who would like to have access to these bursaries. How can they do it?

Professor Willombe: Mr Speaker, there is no provision for bursaries for secondary schools. It is only for universities. 

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Kazonga (Vubwi): Mr Speaker, we are all aware that we have three public universities, namely, UNZA, the CBU and Mulungushi University, as mentioned by one hon. Member. In the hon. Deputy Minister’s answer, he has indicated that Mulungushi University is not being included in this programme because it is on its way to being hived off. When is this going to take place and, in the mean time, is it not appropriate to treat it like the other two public universities?

Professor Willombe: Mr Speaker, I did not say that the university is to be hived off, but that, as a public university, it has a special status, and charges economic fees, as opposed to the CBU and UNZA.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Mr Speaker, I congratulate the hon. Minister because he has improved in the manner he answers questions. That is very good.

Laughter

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, what is the minimum qualification for a bursary at UNZA and the CBU.

Professor Willombe: Mr Speaker, once you are admitted to either the CBU or UNZA, you apply for support and, depending on your circumstances, a scholarship of 25, 50, 75 or 100 per cent is given. All you need to do is secure admission to university to qualify for the scholarship.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mulusa (Solwezi Central): Mr Speaker, a decision as important as the awarding of a bursary should be informed by a detailed cost and benefit analysis. You know that civil servants are poorly paid and cannot further their education through their own resources. Was there a study undertaken which assured the nation that it would still optimally use civil servants without furthering their education?

Professor Willombe: Mr Speaker, there are loans available from the private sector to parents with school leavers and civil servants. Also, each ministry has a provision for training and workers who qualify are able to access sponsorship within their departments. There is no inhibition on any civil servant who wishes to upgrade themselves. They can do so through the DHRD.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Speaker, in his response, the hon. Deputy Minister indicated that the awarding of bursaries is through qualification, application and admission to a university, depending on one’s circumstances. The Bursaries Committee awards bursaries at different 25, 50, 75 or 100 per cent.

Sir, what are the circumstances that may qualify a person for a bursary. I ask this question because there have been circumstances in which double orphans have not qualified, yet we have seen that students who are sponsored by the Bursaries Committee, in certain cases, are those who have parents in gainful employment.

Professor Willombe: Mr Speaker, a double orphan has to be clearly identified and supported by the Department of Social Welfare. The staff in this department, sometimes, goes back to the households to substantiate the applicants’ case and circumstances. They are later awarded one hundred per cent support and, depending on funds being available, more is given to those in these circumstances. Those who have parents who are not able to completely support them are the ones who are in the category of twenty-five per cent while others are in the category of fifty per cent and seventy-five per cent categories, depending on their parents’ inability to support them. That is the criteria.

I thank you, Sir.

SAMFYA DEFORESTATION

272. Mr Chisala (Chilubi) asked the Minister of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection what the magnitude of the deforestation of the Samfya Forest was, as of 31st March, 2012.

The Deputy Minister of Lands, Natural Resources and Environment Protection (Mr Muchima): Mr Speaker, the magnitude of the deforestation of Samfya National Forest, as of 31st March, 2012, was at about 75 per cent.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chisala: Mr Speaker, are there any plans for afforestation of the hardwood trees in the deforested areas of Samfya Forest?

Mr Muchima: Mr Speaker, Samfya, as a district, is one of those areas that do not have enough trees. It is the desire of the Government to consider …

Mr Muchima paused.

Mr Speaker: Continue.

Laughter

Mr Muchima: ... the human settlement and address their plight by planting some more trees so that the people can depend on it for energy. The forest is serves two purposes: as a reserve for the Government and as a source of firewood for the people in the area. The forest does not have enough trees for firewood.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mulusa: Mr Speaker, allow me to take advantage of this question and enquire about our gross domestic product (GDP), of which 20 per cent of the primary sector is forestry. What activities are taking place in the forests to give us 20 per cent of the primary sector for our GDP?

Mr Speaker: That is a new question. Does the hon. Minister want to endeavour to answer it?

Laughter

Mr Muchima indicated dissent (shook his head).

Mr Speaker: Order!

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COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the 
Chair]

VOTE 27 – (Public Service Management Division– K680,791,630,353). 

(Consideration resumed)

The Vice-President (Dr Scott): Mr Chairperson, when business was suspended, yesterday, I was just about to finish enumerating the various tasks that the Public Service Management Division (PSMD) had performed in 2012. 

I will, now, briefly go over the tasks that it will perform in 2013, the year we are debating. Sir, in 2013, the PSMD will:

(a)develop and implement a computerised recruitment and placement system, which will result in effective processing of appointments, confirmations and promotions in the Public Service. Accordingly, job analysis and psychometric testing tools will be developed to ensure fair entry into the Public Service. This might take more than one year;

(b)enhance the security of the Payroll Management and Establishment Control (PMEC) system to ensure continuity and minimise incidences of malpractice in payroll processing. In addition, the division will decentralise the PMEC system to districts;

(c)focus on monitoring and evaluation of training and development activities being undertaken by ministries and provinces;

(d)continue to institutionalise performance management in the entire Public Service and intensify the operationalisation of the performance management package using a trainer-of-trainers approach;

(e)launch the Records Management Policy and co-ordinate its implementation;

(f)embark on the development of human resource succession planning framework as well as a human resource planning model;

(g)intensify capacity building programmes in the implementation of human resource polices in Government ministries and institutions, with the view to decentralising some of  the division’s functions;

(h)continue with the implementation of the strategy for enhancing pay over a ten-year period, which includes the harmonisation and rationalisation of salaries in the Public Service and grant-aided institutions, promotion of ‘equal work, equal pay’ and development of non-monetary incentives for performance;

(i)facilitate the retirement of 2,300 Public Service employees, who will attain the statutory retirement age in 2013. This is in addition to those who will be separated due to re-organisation and restructuring of Government institutions;

(j)intensify technical back-stopping visits to ministries, institutions and provinces; and 

(k)ensure that counter measures are taken throughout the Public Service, in accordance with policies as they are developed and modified by the Ministry of Health to mitigate the continued negative impact of HIV/AIDS on every sector of our society.

Mr Chairperson, the success of any national development programme is dependent on a competent human resource within the Public Service and beyond. It is incumbent upon this august House to support the division’s programmes and activities’ estimates as proposed. 

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Mr Mbulakulima (Chembe): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to comment on this important Vote. 

Sir, human resource is the most important factor of production.  Without the Civil Service, all of us are doomed. I am aware that a lot of debate has taken place over the treatment of the Civil Service, but allow me to add my voice to it. I find it very unnecessary to treat the Civil Service in this manner. 

Mr Chairperson, there has been some misconception of the Civil Service. The scholars of scientific management and the classical school have distinguished three organisational structures. A charismatic structure is built around an individual and governed in accordance with a leader’s wishes. This is different from what Max Weber described as bureaucracy. I think that this is where the problem is because the charismatic and the traditional approaches are very different from the rational or legal. Bureaucracy is described as a system of rule by officials, which brings about complete depersonalisation. This is what is in our Civil Service. That is why the German Sociologist, Max Weber, in his organisational behaviour theory, says that bureaucracy is a description of a way of organising social institutions, incorporating a specification to one approach, structure, internal relationship, distribution of authority and working procedure. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima: Sir, by condemning the Civil Service, we are making a mistake because it is not accountable to an individual like in the traditional and charismatic structures. The Civil Service believe in systems. Our Civil Service has done very well since the days of Independence. All the preceding Governments have done very well with the Civil Service. If you make a comparison in the sub-region, you will find that Lusaka, which was literally a village compared to Maputo and Harare, has done very well. The situation now is different because of our Civil Service. I do not think that it deserves the condemnation that it has received in the recent past. As I said earlier, the Civil Service has built Zambia. There is a need for us, Zambians, to take a leaf from the United States of America (USA). When President Barack Obama was sworn in, he was very clear, in his acceptance speech, that, for him, it was not the ‘blues’, known as ‘Democrats’, or the ‘reds’, known as ‘Republicans’, but all of them together, who played a role in the governance of the country. This is contrary to what we are witnessing in this country. 

The preponderant propensity to hate civil servants …

Interruptions

Mr Mbulakulima: … has led to discombobulating ...

Laughter 

Mr Mbulakulima: … effects on the organisation of Zambia. This must come to an end. 

Hon. Government Member: What is discombobulating?

Mr Mbulakulima: ... which has an effect on the way we run this country.  I, therefore, want to state that there is no need for us to raise this amount of dust.  Discombobulating is a clear word.

Mr Chairperson, the performance of our country depends on the way the Civil Service operates. I want to believe that the Civil Service has stood the test of time. Some of the accusations we have seen levelled against it are unfounded. In Luapula, where I come from, they say, icikata ichibiye cikula umutwe, meaning that it takes a thief to catch another.

Hon. Member: Awee!

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: Icikula umutwe? Awe.

Mr Mbulakulima: Also, …

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

The tradition in this House is that, if you disagree with someone, you do not say, ‘Awe’, but ‘Question’.

Laughter

The Chairperson: You may continue, please.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Chairperson, I also want to submit that Hon. M. B. Mwale has told me that in the Eastern Province there is a problem also. For example, if you marry a lady from the bar, you become uncomfortable if you do not find her at home, even when she has gone to do genuine work. You would think that she has gone to do the same thing she was doing when you met her. In this case, I am submitting that, probably, there is something that the PF Government knows that we do not know about which it was doing with the Civil Service.

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima: We, in the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) and United Party for National Development (UPND) are very clean.

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Mbulakulima: We have got nothing to do with the Civil Service.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Mr Mbulakulima: We want to allow the Civil Service ….

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: However, before the hon. Member raises his point of order, I want to advise the hon. Members of the Executive to be the first to ensure that we move fast because, if we are going to debate through points of order, we are derailing the process.

You may raise your point of order.

Mr Kampyongo: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. I reluctantly rose on this point of order. Is my uncle, the hon. Member debating, in order to continue bombarding us with concoctions of mixed local languages, some of whose translations are not correct? He is also making references to things that are not adding up, yet he is debating a very important portfolio. Is he in order to continue debating in that manner?

The Chairperson: Mr Mbulakulima, take that point of order into account as you debate. However, let us make progress, not derail the process through points of order.

Mr Mbulakulima: I thank you, Mr Chairperson. That man is discombobulating.

Laughter

Mr Mbulakulima: Before I was interrupted by that point of order, I was saying that there is a need for us to play it sober and allow the Civil Service to work professionally. We have got nothing to do with the Civil Service because it is not our intention to allow it to apply the ‘Don’t kubeba’ system. ‘Don’t kubeba’ is a double-edged sword. If they want they can just remain mute because of the threats that you are making. So, I am open enough to advise you to let the Civil Service operate professionally like we have all known them to do. The civil servants have done a lot for this great country.

Mr Chairperson, I also want to join most of our colleagues on your right who welcomed our brother, Hon. Masumba, to this House. Let me also take this opportunity to welcome my distant cousin, Professor Clive Chirwa, who has been appointed as Chief Executive Officer of Zambia Railways.

Laughter

Mr Mbulakulima: As you know, Zambia Railways …

The Chairperson: Order!

I think that people outside the House have nothing to do with what we are doing here. So, please, can you veer off that route, please?

Interruptions

Mr Mbulakulima: Thank you, Mr Chairperson for your advice.

Sir, I was saying that some of the drawbacks in the Civil Service are due to the way promotions are effected. It is very discouraging to find that somebody who was three or four levels below, finds himself/herself above the rest. There is a need for us, as Zambians, to review the way we promote civil servants. Failure to this, civil servants will be demoralised, as is the case today.

With those few remarks, Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Mr Chisala (Chilubi): Mr Chairperson, I stand to support the Vote on the Floor of the House. In doing so, I will remain a man of few words …

Mr V. Mwale: Aah!

Mr Chisala: … simply because I have seen some progressive work that is being done by the division compared with the way it used to perform in the past.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chisala: Mr Chairperson, were reliably informed by His Honour the Vice-President, when he as presenting the policy statement, that the division plays a very instrumental role in recruiting, retiring, promoting and confirming public workers in this country. While I appreciate these roles played by the division, I want to put it on record that, as a people’s representative, especially in the past, the division did not, to some extent, satisfy me and the people of Chilubi, who I represent, in the sense that it never went to the rural areas to recruit people whenever there were opportunities for employment. 

Sir, it has been observed that, whenever there is an advertisement running on, it is the urban dwellers who benefit more. Now, one wonders as to what wrong the rural man has done to be this marginalised.

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Chisala: This, Mr Chairperson, is one area we have to iron out. Once we do away with this trend, which is adversely affecting the rural people, then, definitely, our people in the rural areas will be very happy.

Mr Chairperson, it is high time the division was decentralised so that our people out there can also benefit from the employment opportunities like those in the urban areas.

Sir, recently, there were advertisements by the Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock. Some of us were given the application forms by the people we represent in this debating Chamber. Unfortunately, by the time we brought them to Lusaka, we were told that the deadline had passed. We could not meet the deadline simply because we did not access the required information on time. It is for this reason that I want to put it on record that this office should be decentralised not only to the provincial level, but also the district. That way, our people are going to benefit.

With these few remarks, Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Mr Chairperson, the Public Service Management Division (PSMD) is very important for the development of our nation. To begin with, when His Excellency the President came to this House, he made it very clear that the development platform of our country would be anchored on the Sixth National Development Plan (SNDP) and Vision 2030. 

Sir, the SNDP has outlined priority areas for the development of our country, mainly, infrastructure development, mining, agriculture, tourism and manufacturing, in addition to the service sectors like education and health. The challenge before the PSMD is that of linking our development goals and our vision, as a nation, to the need to have a human resource base with the skills needed to push our development agenda forward. I was expecting to hear from His Honour the Vice-President, for example, whether, as a nation, we have a human resources development database which, of course, would tell us all the various skills which we have in the different sectors of our economy. Where is the database? In that database, where are the gaps that need to be filled in order to meet the challenges of our development goals and plans?

Sir, I was also expecting to hear from the policy statement about a database on the performance indicators in all the various sectors of our economy, for example, agriculture and mining. What are the performance indicators in those different sectors of our country? How are the shortcomings being addressed? With such a gap, in terms of the link between our development goals, as reflected in our national development plans, and the human resource development process, our country has a major problem.{mospagebreak}

Mr Chairman, the Government needs to expeditiously address the training needs in our country. Have we done a training needs assessment or are we planning to undertake one across all the different sectors of the economy? For example, between now and 2030, how many different categories of engineers, doctors, teachers and lawyers do we need?

  Mr Chairperson, it is incumbent for the PSMD to have such long-term projection planning for our country in order for us to link our development with our human resource needs. Such a comprehensive national training needs assessment is cardinal and must be done in the interest of our development. On the basis of the national training needs assessment, it is important to draw a national training policy, which ought to be followed by all the departments so that ministries are not just doing things in isolation, but developing human resource in the context of a clearly-outlined national training policy. The training policy, of course, should address the national human resource priority areas. 

Sir, it is true that countries that have developed rapidly, especially the Tiger Nations, have paid a lot of attention to those who can be categorised as change-designers in development. In human resource, we have those who are called change-pushers. Change-designers are, for example, your medical doctors, economists and engineers whose pre-occupation is to focus on change, transformation and innovation. They create new ideas that push the economy forward. Change-pushers are your various artisans, who include plumbers and mechanics. 

Mr Chairperson, you need to pay attention to the middle-level human resource, who are very important, for example, to push the infrastructure development programme of the nation forward. You need to plan carefully for those designers so that, at the end, you know, exactly, how many plumbers and mechanics you have in the country and their skill levels. So, it is very important that a comprehensive national training policy is put in place to guide all the different ministries, set their targets and help all of us to move towards a well-thought out human resource development plan, in line with our clearly-outlined national development goals and plans. It is only by so-doing that we shall see a properly-coordinated development process in our country and give a clear direction to our training institutions. 

Sir, if you are to ask our universities, like the University of Zambia (UNZA), Mulungushi University and the Copperbelt University (CBU) if they are getting any guidance on the training which they should offer, they would say, ‘No’. They are training agriculturalists, economists and lawyers, among others, but no one is giving them the guidance. Why is the PSMD not providing such guidance through the various ministries? In China, the training institutions are guided by the Government on which training to offer.

  Mr Chairperson, I had the opportunity to visit China for three weeks in 2005 as part of a team of African university vice chancellors. Whilst there, we were taken round the various institutions and 21st Centaury Chinese universities. The Government there plays a key role in directing the human resources development planning of the country and curriculum development. These are very important ideas that need to be taken very seriously by the PSMD, research included. The effective and efficient performance of our Civil Service squarely lies on the triggering process that the division can initiate. That requires a database of well-researched information. So, there has to be a strengthened research programme in PSMD. Once we do things that way, we shall see a professional Civil Service that will need to be protected because it will be playing a vital role in our national development process.

Mr Chairperson, with these few comments, I thank you.

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank the three hon. Members who contributed to this debate. There was one from our side of the House and two from the other side. 

Sir, I could argue for many hours with Hon. Mbulakulima over the difference between charismatic and bureaucratic organisations. If he got to the end of the book by Max Webber that he quoted, he would have discovered that bureaucracies have a tendency of becoming pathological structures because they get some kind of urge to perpetuate or insulate themselves and ensure their own survival above all the purposes for which they were originally designed. Therefore, it is not surprising that we have a bureaucracy like the Zambian Civil Service, which has not been, let us say, guided very well for some decades, getting at loggerheads with our political leaders. Some people have made comfortable nests or ponds inside the Civil Service structure. There is a lot of management and readjustment that needs to be done at the directorship level or there about. There is too much comfort and insulation inside the Civil Service. We are not doing the re-structuring for fun. 

Sir, I have explained on the Floor of this House before that we need a Civil Service that will perform in the context of the PF Government’s vision, not one that will simply sit there because it has employees with the right bits of papers. I, however, welcome Hon. Mbulakulima’s contributions. He has brought many new words to the House.

Laughter

The Vice-President: I believe that most of them are parliamentary. For example, ‘discombobulate’, which I am sure is in the dictionary and, probably, even marked off as a parliamentary word, although I doubt whether it will be catch on.

Laughter

The Vice-President: I would like to thank Mr Chisala for his contribution. He says, “Bravo’ to the PSMD. He stated that, in the past, this institution only operated in town, never in the rural areas. Nowadays, it goes to rural areas. However, I believe that it can still do more. 

Mr Chairperson, Hon. Professor Lungwangwa and I are not quite of the same age. So, he was not fortunate enough to work as a manpower planner in the Commission for National Development in 1965.

Laughter

The Vice-President: If he had, he would have encountered the reality of everything he was talking about, such as making inventory skills as well as the training and educational needs. We were trying to do the whole thing as a centrally-planned exercise. However, I am sure that he has seen the result, which is nothing of note. We are faced with a shortage of sellable skills because most people leave the country. The only ones who remain are people like lawyers, whose skills are difficult to sell in other countries. It turns out that the actual counting and planning exercise was not very useful. Maybe, the next time we try it, it will be more useful. 

As regards a database on performance indices and the kind of human resource that we have, which is part of what he Hon. Professor Lungwangwa talked about, we will certainly take that into account and feed it back into the system.

Mr Chairperson, with those few remarks, I beg the House to pass this Vote. 

Thank you, Sir.

VOTE 27/01 – (Public Service Management Division – Administration – K628,066,956,571).

Mr M. B. Mwale (Malambo): Sir, I seek clarification on page 479, Programme 3001, Activity 003 – Office Administration – K663,944,966. What has necessitated the increment of about 52 per cent in the allocation to this activity? Secondly, on Programme 3003, Activity 001 – Staff Development – K425,375,400, again, what has necessitated that increment of about thirteen times?

The Deputy Minister in the Vice-President’s Office (Mr Kalaba): Mr Chairperson, the increment on Programme 3001, Activity 003 is due to the cost of stationery, office materials and other operating costs. This allocation is required for the procurement of office materials and equipment for the effective operations of the department. As for Programme 3003, Activity 001, the provision is required to cater for competence-based programmes, such as records management, performance management, secretarial training and leadership development. The increase is due to the increased number of group training programmes to be implemented in 2013, and the re-alignment of Activity 005 – Long-Term Training – Local, and Activity 008 – Short-Term Training – Foreign, to this programme.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Kazonga (Vubwi): Sir, I seek clarification on Programme 3047, Activity 004 – M&E of Ministerial Programmes – Nil. There is no provision for this activity next year even though it had one in 2012. What has caused this?

Mr Kalaba: Mr Chairperson, this activity has been moved to Programme 3119, under Vote 27/03 – Public Service Management Division – Human Resources Information and Planning.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 27/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 27/03 – (Public Service Management Division – Human Resources Information and Planning – K6,739,724,342).

The Minister of Finance (Mr Chikwanda): Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment under 101: Human Resources and Administration Unit, Programme 3000: Personal Emoluments, by the deletion of Programme Total, K2,005,271,573, and the substitution therefor of K2,005,271,574.

Amendment agreed to. 

Vote amended accordingly.

Vote 27/03, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 27/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 27/05 – (Public Service Management Division – Technical Services – K23,175,157,363).

Dr Kazonga (Vubwi): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3142, Activity 008 – Disciplinary Matters – Nil. What is the reason for not budgeting for this activity? Secondly, on Programme 3123, Activity 008 – Pay Policy – K1,875,884,528. An amount of K673,417,329 was budgeted for in 2012. What is the reason for that huge increase?

Mr Kalaba: Mr Chairperson, Programme 3142, Activity 008 has been moved to Programme 3103, Activity 012. Secondly, the K1,875,884,528 allocated to Programme 3123, Activity 008 is required for the implementation of the pay policy. The increase is meant to cater for expenses of engaging consultancy to undertake job evaluation for grant-aided institutions and non-monitory incentives for Public Service employees.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Vote 27/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 27/06 – (Public Service Management Division – PMEC Support Services Department – K14,072,957,295).

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment under Unit 01: Human Resources and Administration, Programme 3000: Personal Emoluments, by the deletion of Programme Total K2,978,026,712 and the substitution therefor of K2,978,026,713.

Amendment agreed to. 

Vote amended accordingly.

Vote 27/06, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 20 – (Loans and Investments – Local Government and Housing – K936,191,095,500);

VOTE 29 – (Ministry of Local Government and Housing – K704,294,715,895); and

VOTE 25 – (Local Government Service Commission – K4,500,000,000).

The Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mrs Kabanshi): Mr Chairperson, allow me, in the first place, to congratulate Hon. Chikwanda, MP, Minister of Finance, for presenting a budget that is well-meaning to the people of Zambia by the PF Government as guided by its party manifesto.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Kabanshi: It is a well-known fact that this is the first budget of the now one-year old Government in power that truly reflects the policy direction of the Government of His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Michael Chilufya Sata.

The Ministry of Local Government and Housing understands very well and, therefore, accepts the fact that the national cake is small against many competing demands. Consequently, the budget is framed in that context. My Ministry’s budget is considered under three heads. Head 20 is for loans and investments, involving the departments of Housing, Infrastructure, Decentralisation Secretariat and Physical Planning; Head 29 is the recurrent or operations head involving all the six departments; and, finally, Head 25 caters for the newly-created Local Government Service Commission.

Mr Chairperson, in order to appreciate the budget estimates of ministry that are about to be debated, it is important that the hon. Members of the House are reminded of the mandate of the Ministry, which is to promote a decentralised and democratic Local Government system and facilitate the provision of an efficient and effective delivery of quality housing, infrastructure, and social services for sustainable development. 

Mr Chairperson, to achieve this mandate, the Ministry has put together programmes with a budget amounting to K1.1 trillion, out of which K1.575 billion is donor contribution. Under Head 20, my Ministry will be required to accelerate implementation of the on-going programmes and projects and add value to the principles of good local governance, infrastructure development and offering quality leadership in local authorities in 2013. Allow me, therefore, to present my policy statement by sectors, beginning with physical planning.

Physical Planning

The Physical Planning Department has an allocation of K12.1 billion, out of which K5.7 billion has been set aside to facilitate the preparation of integrated development plans in local authorities to ensure orderly and co-ordinated development. The preparation of the integrated development plans will include the preparation of inception reports, status quo reports and spatial development frameworks. In this regard, spatial planning legislation will be revised. The review of spatial planning legislation is to be accompanied by the preparation of urban and regional planning regulations. 

Infrastructure Development

Mr Chairperson, in 2013, K9.9 billion has been provided for the repair and rehabilitation of roads, foot-paths and foot-bridges, and improvement of feeder roads and river-crossings in rural areas. As regards water sanitation and infrastructure development, my ministry will focus on the construction of water points; sinking of boreholes and rehabilitation of existing water supply and sanitation facilities in both urban and rural areas. This will result in improved access to clean and safe drinking water, and proper sanitation in rural and urban areas. Two hundred fifty billion kwacha has been provided in 2013 for this purpose, against the K150 billion provided in 2012.

Mr Chairperson, the ministry will continue with the construction of model retail markets and bus stations in both urban and rural areas in order to promote productivity. Therefore, K21.9 billion has been provided for this purpose in the 2013 Budget, against K2 billion in 2012. This will facilitate the construction of markets and bus stations in most districts, especially the newly-created ones. The local authorities also require support in the provision of municipal solid waste management services as a matter of priority. 

Mr Chairperson, in order to improve housing infrastructure, my ministry is going to review the National Housing Policy aimed at providing decent and affordable housing in order to improve the quality of life of the majority of the people. One of the strategies that the ministry will use is the Public-Private Partnership (PPP) model to help reduce the national housing deficit of more than 1.5 million units. A budget of K22.9 billion has been provided in 2013 for this purpose.

Fire Services and Equipment

Mr Chairperson, K11 billion has been provided in the 2013 Budget for rehabilitation of fire tenders and provision of fire hydrants to improve the quality of service provision by local authorities. 

Decentralisation

Mr Chairperson, as re-affirmed by His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Michael Chilufya Sata, in his official address to the First Session of the Eleventh National Assembly, my ministry intends to implement sector devolution in 2013 on a pilot basis. It will embark on the accelerated building of capacity in the councils. To this effect, K22.2 billion has been set aside for the combined departmental operations. 

Mr Chairperson, in line with the Government’s overall developmental agenda of equal opportunities for all, my ministry has ensured that the allocation of resources in the 2013 Budget reflects the priority placed on programmes with the greatest impact on the majority of the people. I would like to urge hon. Members to agree with me on the importance of infrastructure development and devolution of functions to the local authorities as envisioned in the 2013 Budget. I also seek the support of this august House in approving these Estimates under Head 20.

Mr Chairperson, this policy statement on the 2013 Estimates of Expenditure under Head 20 is presented against the background of the ministry’s broadened mandate, as outlined in the portfolio function, which is to promote a decentralised and democratic local Government system and facilitate the provision of an efficient and effective delivery of quality housing infrastructure and social services for sustainable development.

Local Government Administration

Mr Chairperson, my ministry will review the Local Government Act, Cap 281 of the Laws of Zambia in order to establish a system of Local Government that will promote local economic development and improve on the delivery of essential infrastructure and services through local self-Government. Furthermore, the Government intends to enhance accountability, transparency and good governance at local level by improving the financial management system. My ministry will develop financial mechanisms that will take into account the revenue and expenditure assignments so as to address the fiscal gap.

Grants to Councils

Mr Chairperson, the Government has translated its commitment to implementing the decentralised system of governance by strengthening the operations of local Governments in line with the PF Manifesto. Our promise is translated into an increased allocation of grants to councils from a total provision of K407.1 billion in 2012 to K648.6 billion in 2013. 

Creation of District Councils

Mr Chairperson, the PF-led Government’s creation of new district councils across the country is one of the strategies in ensuring that employment opportunities are created for our people, that people in those areas are not excluded from local governance and that public services and development are brought closer to the people. So far, the number of councils has increased from 74, in 2011, to 89, in 2012.

Constituency Development Funds

Mr Chairperson, my ministry is committed to financing micro community projects in all the 150 constituencies so as to enhance community participation in development at the local level. The ministry has, therefore, re-activated the CDF Bill, which lapsed in October, 2011, by circulating it to the Cabinet in order to give the current CDF guidelines the force of law by enacting an appropriate Act of Parliament that will regulate the use of funds and provide sanctions on those who abuse these public funds.

Mr Chairperson, my ministry is in the process of reviewing the Rating Act, Cap 192, of the Laws of Zambia so as to enhance the revenue base of local governments. It is from the valuation of their properties that councils will receive added revenue for their development agenda.

Mr Chairperson, the Chalimbana Local Government Training Institute contributes to the ministry’s mission by facilitating human capacity building of local authorities for improved service delivery. My ministry intends to rehabilitate the institute’s infrastructure in order to improve the learning environment. The ministry is desirous of improving the human resource capacity of the institute to enable it to deliver effectively on its mandate. In this regard, we have allocated K4.5 billion to facilitate the core business of training members of staff in local authorities, and we will continue with the on-going rehabilitations. The institute will also benefit from the capacity building resources allocated to the Decentralisation Secretariat.

Decentralisation

Mr Chairperson, the implementation of the National Decentralisation Policy remains an important area of operation under my ministry. Preparations for the implementation of this policy, through the devolution of additional functions and resources to councils, have reached an advanced stage. Working together with all other implementing ministries and supporting institutions, such as Cabinet Office, my ministry will ensure that the devolution of selected functions will be ready to commence in 2013, as scheduled. To attain this level of preparedness, the Government has taken substantial steps towards the following important pre-requisites:

(a)a schedule of functions to be devolved over the medium-term, starting in 2013, has been prepared;

(b)district councils that have the capacity to receive devolved functions in 2013 have been identified countrywide. These will receive additional technical support in different areas, such as financial management, district planning and public procurement, before they receive the functions to be devolved;

(c)the shortfalls in human resource needs in councils, which have discouraged decentralisation efforts, are being systematically addressed, through the combined effort of relevant service commissions and other Government agencies;

(d)amendments to legislations, including the Local Government Act and the Town and Country Planning Act, have been undertaken in order to empower councils;

(e)new institutions and systems for enhanced citizen participation in the planning, implementation and monitoring of local development have been defined for implementation in all districts and wards countrywide; and

(f)the poor financial situation of councils is being systematically addressed, through increased budgetary allocation and other measures on fiscal decentralisation.

Mr Chairperson, in 2013, my ministry will focus on the actual implementation of devolution by ensuring that the progress attained, to date, is sustained. The ministry will also implement fiscal and other measures necessary to support devolution, as planned.

Mr Chairperson, decentralisation is a complex and demanding policy reform.  However, with the current political will towards the project, my ministry remains confident that it will deliver this much-needed and cherished result to our people as we promised in the PF Manifesto.

Mr Chairperson, I seek the support of this August House in approving the Estimates under Head 29 to enable my ministry facilitate the provision of improved services to local communities.

Mr Chairperson, this policy statement on the 2013 Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure for the Local Government Service Commission (LGSC) is presented against the background of the commission’s mission statement, which is:

“To ensure effective mobilisation and equitable distribution of human resources for efficient, sustainable and effective service delivery in local government.”

Mr Chairperson, the LGSC will, in 2013, endeavour to accelerate the implementation of the on-going programmes and activities of sustaining a highly meritorious local government service that will add value to the principles of good local governance.

Mr Chairperson, the LGSC has the mandate of overseeing eighty-nine district councils in the Republic of Zambia. To achieve its objectives, the commission will require to be fully-equipped with human and financial resources.

Mr Chairperson, apart from the responsibilities entrusted to the LGSC by the Local Government Act, which are to make appointments, transfers, secondments and discipline officers, it is incumbent upon it to execute all responsibilities that are necessary or incidental to the regulation of service within councils. This entails identifying, designing, developing and implementing human resource management tools that will be used as benchmarks for ensuring that the officers in the councils exhibit a high level of professionalism and discipline. This will, in turn, enhance service delivery to the communities, which is one of the many pillars of decentralisation. To achieve this, the LGSC, which is a start-up institution, requires adequate funding to meet administrative, staff and operational expenses.

Sir, for 2013, the LGSC has been allocated K4,500,000,000. I am aware of the competing demands on expenditure for various services. However, permit me to stress the fact that the allocation to the commission in the 2013 Budget is inadequate. This, undoubtedly, will have an adverse impact on the operations of the commission and, thus, it will not be able to fully execute its mandate. Therefore, there will be areas that will require supplementary funding.

Mr Chairperson, in conclusion, I seek the support if this August House in approving the Estimates under Head 25 in order to enable the LGSC to facilitate improved service delivery by local councils.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Belemu (Mbabala): Mr Chairperson, thank you very much. I will not be on the Floor longer that it is absolutely necessary. I think it is important that I make a few remarks based on the statement made by the hon. Minister on the policy direction of the ministry.

Sir, first of all, I think it is very interesting for the PF Government to keep passing the buck every time it thinks that something is not right. It keeps saying that this is its first Budget, yet it had the opportunity to prepare its own Budget and no one stopped it from doing so. So, we have heard that. Let the Government work out what it wants to achieve for this country.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Belemu: We cannot keep being reminded that this is this Government’s first Budget. Why did you not …

Hon. Government Member interjected.

Mr Belemu: In any case, …

The Chairperson: Order!

Please, give him the chance to debate.

Mr Belemu: Mr Chairperson, in any case, there is very little to be proud of about this Budget, as can be seen from the many errors and by the Executive’s own admission that it is defective.

Interruptions

Mr Belemu: Mr Chairperson, I think that the PF Government should help us understand, exactly, what it wants to achieve in local government. For example, when we come to matters of decentralisation, the PF talks about its desire to decentralise and for this ministry to be like this and that, but it is doing exactly the opposite of decentralisation. For example, now, we are told that the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) projects must be approved in Lusaka. Is that an act of decentralisation or going backwards? It is a negation of decentralisation.

Sir, every time, we keep hearing of threats and actual suspensions of councils. If you listen to most of the threats, they are actually based on politics, as opposed to the operations of those councils. Members of staff in some councils, today, live in fear just because the majority of the councillors there belong to an Opposition party. Every time, they are either receiving threats or being suspended.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Belemu: Is that going to support decentralisation or negate it? Common sense will tell us that you are negating decentralisation. You must encourage the local councils and local administration to function they are supposed to.

Interruptions

Mr Belemu: Mr Chairperson, we have too many interventions from the hon. Minister on matters of local government and the councils. Whenever there are small quarrels in councils, the first person who shows up is the hon. Minister. I can give an example. Some PF cadres did not like the transfer of one town clerk from Choma and his replacement by another one, and went and locked the offices. They reported to the hon. Minister that they had locked the offices of a full council that is running.  The PF Government is telling us that it wants to decentralise, yet its cadres are busy locking offices depending on the personalities they like or hate.

Sir, the PF Government is destroying the spirit of decentralisation. Councils are not operating freely on account of fear of the so many interventions that are coming from hon. Ministers of Local Government and Housing on account of even trivial things that are happening in those councils.

Mr Chairperson, the second thing that I would like to note is that, when you go through the Local Government Act, ... I do not even know what the problem is with the Government. That Act provides for so many things which, if correctly implemented, some of the problems that we are talking about, today, could have not been issues. For example, the matter of street vendors, which the hon. Minister chose to re-name street traders so that it sounds acceptable. However, this is the same thing. It is street vending. 

Sir, the Local Government Act is non-compromising but, on the Floor of this House, we are being told that some laws can be implemented while others cannot. One hon. Minister will say one thing and the next will say the exact opposite. So, tell us, exactly, what you want to achieve. Do you want to throw away the Local Government Act? If you have thrown it away, tell us so that we also tell our people that the place to be is on the streets, and that they can litter it as much as they want and, at 2300 hours, as the hon. Minister once told us, the council will come and clean the dirt off the street, including human waste.

Laughter 

Interruptions

Mr Belemu: We need to apply the law as it stands. It must not be selective. For now, there is a Local Government Act which the hon. Minister must implement. Otherwise, why are PF hon. Members swearing to uphold the Constitution and the law when they are doing the opposite?

Mr Chairperson, …

Mr Kapeya: On a point of order, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised. However, let me re-iterate my earlier advice that it is in the interest of all of us, particularly the Executive, to ensure that we pass this Budget. These points of order that have a tendency to slow down our progress are not good.

Mr Kapeya: Mr Chairperson, this is a very serious point of order. Is the hon. Member of Parliament debating in order to claim that some local councils are being threatened without actually naming them?

I seek your serious ruling, Sir.

The Chairperson: Order!

Sometimes, it is better not to mention names because it will only bring up more debate. That slows down progress. Anyway, hon. Member, take that point of order into account as you debate.

Mr Belemu: Mr Chairperson, as the UPND, we want to take Local Government to a different level. As a matter of fact, we will not have that many hon. Deputy Ministers who think that their job is to come here and raise points of order.

Laughter 

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

The statement I made did not mean that you should rub it in.

Please, continue.

Mr Belemu: Mr Chairperson, I thank you very much for your counsel.

Sir, let me touch, briefly, on the LGSC. In the last few months, from the time that our colleagues came into office, and looking at the pace and direction at which this commission is progressing, we are getting seriously concerned because, first of all, there is too much inertia at this commission. A number of positions in councils are not filled. When filling those positions, it is done arbitrarily. 

Mr Chairperson, we had so many transfers, some of which were not even explained. Some of them have little meaning. For example, at Choma Municipal Council, of which I am a member, there have been so many transfers and suspensions of members of staff. While one is being investigated, the next morning he is being transferred to another council. So, you cannot tell whether those officers were being suspended genuinely or not. You cannot also tell whether the commission really wants to achieve its goals.

Sir, we must also check whether the commission is helping to promote discipline in the councils or not. For now, those who have access to this commission, individual members of the commission and officers boast that they have connections in the commission and want to use these commissions to get promotions and chances of even becoming undisciplined and to be let loose. We have had such cases. 

Mr Chairperson, we would like the hon. Minister to re-examine the functions of this commission. Let us be serious and see whether the commission is serving the purpose for which it was intended. If it is failing us, there is nothing wrong with coming back to this House to tell us that it has failed the Zambian people. So far, in my opinion, it is failing us. It is not doing the correct thing in the councils. We have problems of manpower, indiscipline, arbitrary transfers, suspensions and movements. You cannot keep moving staff every so often.

Sir, may I conclude by touching on the creation of districts. We know, and we have been told so many times, that the President has powers. This and that is in the hands of the President. The role of the Executive is to advise the President. Why can they not, for once, advise the President that the chaotic way of creating districts is creating confusion in the country, more so when certain districts are transferred to other provinces for no reason? For example, we have a situation where Itezhi-tezhi is said to be in Central Province when some areas there are closer to Kalomo and Livingstone than Kabwe, and the reasons that are being advanced for this are wrong ones. Earlier last week we were talking about the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs. You will have difficulties trying to marry the two because, for example, chiefs who have ruled over subjects in the Southern Province for many years are being told that they are, now, in Central Province without having a proper explanation as to why there must be those movements. A colleague, in his debate last week, said that people who do such things are usually cursed.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Belemu: May I conclude by appealing to the PF Government not to transfer the PF cadre mentality into the local government system. What we have seen is that some of its appointed district secretaries want to go into council offices and harass the management and elected councillors of the people. We are asking the PF, for once, to cage its political actors on the ground. Otherwise, if we, in Choma, decide to retaliate, they will run away. They wanted to try and disrupt meetings and lock offices last week.

Interjections 

Hon. Government Members: Never.

Mr Belemu: If you are challenging me by saying, ‘Never’, then let us go to Choma and you will see how you will scamper.

Interruptions

Mr Belemu: It is an act of indiscipline for a PF cadre to go and grab office keys for a Government institution. It shows high levels of indiscipline, and the earlier the party deals with these issues the better.

Hon. Opposition Member: Yes.

Mr Belemu: Its members must also learn that those who rise by the sword will perish by the sword. They must not think that these cadres will continue to harass UPND members alone. One day, the same cadres they are encouraging to grab keys in local authorities will turn against them.

Mr Ng’onga: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Ng’onga: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to rise on this point or order. 

Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Member who is debating in order to move away from debating the policy issues and start debating individual party employees? Is he in order, Sir?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: I think that he is in order because you cannot separate the Ministry of Local Government and Housing from individuals who are in certain institutions. However, in so saying, I am not encouraging him to delve into detailed descriptions of individuals. 

Hon. Belemu, you may continue, please.

Mr Belemu: Mr Chairperson, I encourage the hon. Minister, for her benefit, to increase the CDF because she wants to have a hand in it. She cannot be fighting to have a hand over K1 billion. Once the CDF is increased, her voice will be heard. It is more reasonable for her to tell us to buy equipment after the fund has been increased than when it is still only K1 billion. It has to be increased ...

Hon. Government Member: To how much?

Mr Belemu: … to a minimum of K5 billion because, as the UPND, we will start with a minimum of K10 billion.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter

Mr Ng’onga (Kaputa): Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank you for giving me this opportunity to add the voice of the people of Kaputa to this important policy debate presented by the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing.

Mr Chairperson, as indicate by the hon. Minister, this ministry is very important and sits at the centre of a good service delivery system. I am very delighted to see a progressive increment of the allocated to the ministry in this Budget. Therefore, I would like to comment on some pertinent issues which have been raised.

Mr Chairperson, in terms of service delivery, if the local government … 

The Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.{mospagebreak}

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the 
Chair]

Mr Ng’onga: Mr Chairperson, before business was suspended, I was looking at the local government system and the role it plays in the promotion of decentralised service delivery to our people. This ministry is important because it is at the forefront of ensuring that services are delivered to our people. It is in this light that I wish to point out to the hon. Minister that, in order for us to provide the best decentralised service to our people, we need to look at the people we have in our councils. Allow me to refer to rural councils like Kaputa. 

Sir, we need people in these offices who are not only enlightened, but also able to carry out instructions effectively in order to ensure that services are delivered to the people. In the past, we have not seen money being allocated to the ministry, for instance, for water and sanitation, which is a very important programme. There are many people in rural councils who have suffered through many years of neglect by the previous Government. Therefore, it is not surprising that, when the money is allocated, there are bureaucratic bottle-necks that set in and, one year later, nothing is done to deliver important services to the people of these rural councils. Therefore, I would like the hon. Minister to ensure that we deliver on what we have promised to the people because there is no way the people will see us as a working Government when we are unable to deliver. 

Mr Chairperson, let me, now, talk about markets and bus stations on which the hon. Minister has ably debated. I know that almost all rural constituencies are in dire need of this infrastructure. We are looking at the speedy delivery of services so that markets, bus stations and street lighting are provided to our people.

Mr Chairperson, let me briefly talk about some challenges that our councils continue to face. The first is the huge debt burden which, yes, was inherited from the previous Governments. However, I still think that the earlier it is handled, the better because that will help the rural councils to perform better. It will be a non-starter if we leave it to the councils to generate their own income to pay off their debt. 

Sir, in Kaputa, we used to generate revenue to pay staff wages to council workers from fish income. Sadly, our fish stocks have since been depleted. We are also not able to charge any levy on the crops grown in the area. We totally depend on the Central Government to financially sustain the operations of councils. Kaputa, Chimbamilonga and Samfya are all in dire need of this assistance. Hon. Minister, we want you to help dismantle the huge debts owed by the councils. Once this is done, we can move forward.  

Sir, let me also talk about the LGSC. Many people have indicated that there have been many transfers that have been taking place. Just like there are Directors of Works, who are qualified engineers, in Lusaka and Ndola, we also need one in Kaputa. I am saying so because if we require the level of our infrastructure to improve, we need to have people who are educated and qualified in those particular positions. For many years, rural areas, such as Kaputa, Shang’ombo and Chilubi, have been sidelined. If you send a person who is unqualified, they will not be able to supervise the employees. Therefore, we should transfer people with similar qualifications to both rural areas and urban areas. 

Sir, finally, we welcome the Bill on the CDF that will be coming in order to curb the abuse of this fund. However, what we would want to also point out is that we do not need to have bureaucracy in the management of this fund. This is, basically, the fund that goes down to the constituency. The earlier it is given to the hon. Members of Parliament, the earlier the projects will be implemented. However, if the management of the fund is brought back to Lusaka for administration and approvals, then we shall not move forward quickly. The Bill must categorically state how the fund should be administered.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Brigadier-General Dr Chituwo (Mumbwa): Mr Speaker, thank you for allowing me to say a few words on this Vote. First and foremost, I would like to urge the PF Government not to take what we say as an attempt to sabotage its programmes. Please, listen to us carefully because we have one constituency, and that is the people of Zambia. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Brigadier-General Dr Chituwo: Mr Chairperson, I agree with the hon. Minister that the K4.5 billion which has been given to the LGSC is paltry, considering the mammoth task it has. It has to deal with many human resource issues in the councils. 

Sir, the PF Government should not politicise the work of the LGSC. The services offered by civic leaders do not discriminate on partisan lines. Our people yearn for services from the local leaders whom they have elected to work with the Central Government. When you start transferring people just because of pressure or because you know them, you are creating a recipe for failure wherever these men and women are transferred to. Let the commission be a professional advisory body. Let it function as the Act stipulates.

Mr Chairperson, the local government system is key to the success of any Government. It has got sixty-three functions, and I hope that the review of Cap 281 will promote the devolution of powers to the local authorities. If that is the case, I will move on to the CDF. 

Sir, the local people know what priority areas should be attended to in their localities. I want to hear from the hon. Minister what mechanism, the Government will put in place, through the Provincial Local Government Office, for assessing the projects that have been looked at by the Constituency Development Fund Committees (CDFC) and District Development Coordinating Committees (DDCCs) so that there is no duplication of work. 

Mr Chairperson, we were allocated the CDF, perhaps, last month. Clearly, by the time we go through the process, we shall only be starting to use the money next year, which means that a whole year would have been wasted. You will be judged by what you have delivered, not what you say on the Floor of the House. There are many of my colleagues who say very good things, but implement nothing. After all, we are all councillors who are supposed to be answerable to the people. Hon. Minister, help our people by reversing that decision of having CDF projects assessed here, in Lusaka. 

Mr Chairperson, I listened very carefully to what the hon. Minister said about spatial planning, urban planning, regional planning and town planning, and I think that it is very clear that there is a construction boom in nearly every district. Most companies, which are owned by councils and handle the provision of water and sewerage services, are not doing a good job. We see, not only here, in Lusaka, but also in Mumbwa and Itezhi-tezhi, that households, because of the lack of centralised sewerage and water treatment plants, are sinking boreholes and septic tanks in close proximity.  

Sir, surely, when you have a district that is expanding by between 500 to 600 residents, yearly, and the services available are only boreholes and septic tanks, you are creating a recipe for disaster. The water and sewerage companies must plan their services properly. The situation, currently, is a total disaster. 

Mr Chairperson, I also heard the hon. Minister talk about boreholes. These are totally inadequate due to the increasing population. I hope that 1000 boreholes can be sunk in Mumbwa, but, perhaps, that would take up the whole Budget that was presented in this House. In this case, there is a need to have supplementary budgeting.

Mr Chairperson, all the hon. Members who have rural constituencies are quite, but their people are in need of safe water, ...

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chituwo: ... except, maybe, the hon. Minister of Youth and Sport who has no rural constituency.

Mr Chairperson: I …

Dr Chituwo: I apologise, Mr Chairperson, for ‘starting’ him.

Laughter

Dr Chituwo: However, water is very important, hon. Minister.

Mr Chairperson, when we, as councillors, alert the hon. Minister about certain issues, her reaction is too slow. Let me urge her to, please, revert to us and update us on progress made in addressing our concerns because that is important and good for all of us. She should not ignore our questions or concerns.

Mr Chairperson, what percentage of the K32.2 trillion national Budget is the K1.1 trillion allocation to the Ministry of Local Government and Housing? I think that it is less than 1 per cent. Therefore, although you are saying that there has been an increased allocation as a result of the devolution of powers, we, really, would have wished to have more money allocated to the ministry because you would then be able to provide for the needs of our people. Even when you talk about local area development, for instance, in Mumbwa, there are many mines that have re-discovered copper. However, I have noticed that the big trucks are destroying our local roads, yet there is nothing that we are benefiting, locally, except centrally. So, local area development must be speeded up so that there is some revenue retained locally to repair those feeder roads. Better still, instead of wasting money on grading these roads every year, I suggest that we have a deliberate policy to the effect that, where you have these activities, tarred roads be put up that will service those areas for many years. I think, that would serve our people better.

Mr Chairperson, on the issue of street vending, I plead with the hon. Minister that, for example, in Lusaka, we had a plan to let the Lusaka City Council Engineering Department work out a way in which we could develop certain areas in the Centre Business District (CBD) where we can have lockable kiosks and open them up for trading. The council can provide ablution facilities so that our people can trade freely and in a safe environment. The scheme can, then, be replicated all over the country, in place of the street vending that we are currently seeing. What will happen when the rains start? You have told us that there is a budget line for building markets, and we know that, for example, more than 6000 stores in Lusaka are unoccupied. Therefore, this is a complex issue to agree on. However, if you met the street vendors half-way by opening up designated trading areas, surely, it would better serve the Government and our people. I urge you to, please, look at those plans because they propose a win-win situation.

Mr Chairperson, let me conclude by looking at the issue of decentralisation. With devolved powers, we will wait for more details with regard to which councils have been found capable of taking up additional powers in fiscal management, education and health.

Mr Chairperson, let me, yet again, emphasise that one of the areas where devolution should have taken place is primary healthcare because the infrastructure is already there. Why do you want to duplicate things by decentralising the local authorities, but still want the ministry to hold powers in terms of primary healthcare? I urge you to re-think this. It may not be any time soon because, once you have put something in place, it is human nature to be very reluctant to change it because you are proud of it. However, decentralisation would have been much more meaningful if we had utilised the systems that were involved in this area of primary healthcare and public health in the past.

Mr Chairperson, let me end by urging this Government, just as I pleaded with it not to politicise the Local Government Service Commission, to let the councils, which may have Opposition councillors in the majority, to render their services. These services are not different from anywhere else. Development has knows no Opposition or Ruling Party.

The Chairperson: Order!

Can the hon. Government Members consult quietly. What is happening?

Interruptions

Dr Chituwo: This is the problem, Sir.

The Chairperson: Order! 

I have already called them to order. Can you continue.

Dr Chituwo: Mr Chairperson, the issue of decentralisation is key and, much as we have seen the formation of new districts, we are sure that it will not be any time soon that the necessary services actually originate from these districts. What is important is that they are given the necessary human resource as well as equipment. In my view, to do this, it is better to consider increasing the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) to K5 million.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chituwo: Sir, I think, the hon. Minister of Finance will deliver much more on this, and I look forward to the amendments where we will have an allocation of K5 billion for the CDF because this will bring smiles on our citizens’ faces. I warn my colleagues on the Back Bench that, ultimately, we will be judged by the services delivered to our people. They should not just be praising hon. Ministers all time without delivering services to the people. When the CDF is increased to K5 million, we will, then, have tangible development with the construction of bridges, schools and other infrastructure. We will be cutting down on the bureaucracy of the system.

Dr Chituwo: Mr Chairperson …

Ms Kapata: Lusaka City Council.

Dr Chituwo: … when a council has abrogated its responsibilities, the law is there and you should interpret it. The hon. Deputy Minister of Community Development, Mother and Child Health talks too much.

Laughter

Dr Chituwo: When I acted on the Lusaka City Council (LCC), the hon. Minister of Justice challenged me as the Secretary General of the PF, and I replied to him. So, what right do you have to question that decision?

Laughter

Dr Chituwo: Mr Chairperson, the point I am making is that we should be sincere in the decisions that we make. Whether it is a PF-controlled or a Opposition-controlled council. If we are truthful, the law will be on our side. That is what the hon. Minister of Justice said. The law is blind but, when people transgress it, let it take its course.

I thank you, Sir.

The Chairperson: I have a long list of hon. Members who wish to debate. So, it is better if you are able to finish your debate in less than five minutes. 

Ms Imenda (Luena): Mr Chairperson, I thank you. First of all, I would like to commend and congratulate the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing for a well-articulated policy statement. However, I would like to make a few brief comments on certain issues. I am primarily speaking on behalf of the people of Luena.

Mr Chairperson, on the issue of feeder roads, I wish to mention that there seems to be so much concentration on improving roads and other infrastructure in urban areas. For instance, I, sometimes, wonder about the chunk of the national Budget the hon. Member of Parliament for Lusaka Central has been allocated because all the roads in his constituency are being tarred, yet Limulunga/Ushaa Road, the only road budgeted for in Luena Constituency, has not been worked on. 

Ms Kapata: On a point of order, Sir. 

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised. 

Ms Kapata: Mr Chairperson, I rarely rise on points of order, but is the hon. Member of Parliament for Luena in order to blame the Ministry of Local Government and Housing for the roads that have not been done in her area, yet she is aware that this ministry only deals with urban roads, not rural ones? 

I need your serious ruling. 

The Chairperson: Hon. Member, can you take that point of order into account as you debate. 

You may proceed. 

Ms Imenda: Mr Chairperson, I am commenting on the policy statement made by the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing. She mentioned feeder roads, and the roads in Luena also qualify to be called feeder roads. I think that the hon. Deputy Minister just wanted to derail me. 

Laughter

Ms Imenda: Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister of Finance is here. So, I hope that, when next he divides the national cake, he will look at this matter because I have not been able to understand why roads in urban areas seem to get a bigger chunk of national resources. 

Mr Chairperson, the Limulunga/Ushaa Road is the only road in the area, but it has not been worked on because resources are yet to be released. This is November, and the rains are coming. I do not know when the money will be released. I have tried to follow up the matter, but I am told that even the Rural Roads Unit (RRU) provincial administration, which is responsible, has no idea why the money has not been released. They have even given me the contact details of officers responsible for the release of this money in Lusaka and, soon enough, maybe, tomorrow, I will be knocking on their door to find out what is happening. Suffice it to say that this kind of discrimination will not do. The people of Luena are as much entitled to the national cake as the people of Mandevu and Lusaka Central constituencies. 

Laughter 

Mr Chairperson, the rural water situation is pathetic, especially for Luena Constituency. Would you believe that there are places in Luena Constituency where children have never seen a tap? They do not know what it looks like. If you think that I am lying, please, go to a place called Sindindi and find out for yourself. The children there have never seen a tap, yet they are entitled to water. Speaking of which, it boggles my mind how the small population in Limulunga, which is on the edge of the Barotse Water Basin, does not have water in its homes. What is happening to our planning situation? Is it deliberate or a result of incompetence? I would like to know and hope that the hon. Minister, when she responds to these issues, will make me understand. 

Mr Chairperson, some schools in my constituency have benefited from boreholes. However, this infrastructure breaks down, sometimes, and there is need for repair, by, oh my! It is another headache to try and have them repaired. For instance, the pump at Mweke School broke down. We have reported the damage to the council and, every time I enquire, they tell me that the repairs have been done. However, when I go to the school, they tell me that it is still down and, when I go back to the council, they tell me that they were talking about some other pump. Please, can the authorities respond? Can you give them ‘enablement’ to provide this facility to rural constituencies such as Luena?   

Hon. Government Members: Enablement?

Laughter 

Ms Imenda: Yes, enablement. 

Mr Chairperson, markets have been built in urban areas. I do not know about other areas but, in Luena, we had to use the CDF to put roofing sheets on Limulunga Market, the only market in constituency. Surely, the people of Luena are entitled to whatever cake builds Soweto and other markets. Why should the little CDF that is given have to be taken to roofing the market to protect marketeers from getting soaked by the rains? Hon. Minister, please, look into these issues because we are also entitled. 

Mr Chairperson, I have not seen any construction of houses outside Lusaka. 

Interruptions

Ms Imenda: Maybe, it is there on the Copperbelt because I have not been there in a long time, but there is, definitely, nothing in the Western Province, specifically Luena. The situation in Luena is pathetic. I wish to encourage hon. Ministers and other hon. Members of Parliament on your right to visit Luena and see for themselves. I think that it is the only place where you will find mud houses and grass-thatched roofs. 

Interruptions

Ms Imenda: When we complain, people pretend not to understand. Surely, we are also entitled. 

Mr Chairperson, the CDF for Luena Constituency has not yet been released. 

Mr Livune: Sure?

Ms Imenda: No, it has not. 

Mr Livune: Why? They hate you, ayi?

Ms Imenda: I do not know. The CDF for Mongu Central, which is a PF stronghold, has been released.  

Laughter 

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Ms Imenda: I do not know where this ‘step-children’ and ‘step-mother’ business is coming from. I do not understand it.

Laughter 

Mr Livune: What about Nalolo? Has the CDF been released?

Ms Imenda: Mr Chairperson, may I be protected.

The Chairperson: Order!

Ms Imenda: Mr Chairperson, in winding up my debate, I would like to commend the Ministry of Local Government and Housing for limiting the 10 per cent administration costs in the guidelines to a certain ceiling. This is a welcome development because, before I saw it, I took my council to task because I wanted to see a tabulation of some kind to show how they had utilised the 10 per cent. I came to learn that only one project was visited for the sake of monitoring and evaluation. However, I want to see how that money has been used because, I believe, there has been a system whereby council employees just share that money using meaningless claims and so on and so forth. Therefore, I told them that I wanted to see a breakdown of how the 10 per cent of the last CDF had been used. If I do not see that, they should not even touch the 10 per cent for this year.

Mr Chairperson, I would also like to echo the sentiments of other debaters that the CDF should be increased. However, for me, at the expense of repeating myself, there should be differentiation in the amount of CDF. Rural constituencies, which do not benefit from some of these other central planning issues, should be given more money.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Imenda: I would suggest that K5 billion be given to rural constituencies and K1 billion to urban ones, including Mandevu Constituency.

Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Laughter

Ms Siliya (Petauke): Thank you, Mr Chairperson, first of all, let me just state that I am very pleased that, once again, the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing is a woman. I believe that this is the ministry of the people and we have a lot of our people in rural areas who are expecting services from this ministry. I am sure her makeup, as a woman, makes it possible to appreciate and address these problems very quickly.

Now, those are the only compliments I am going to give. As we heard yesterday, this is not the time to praise Caesar but to bury Caesar. The Caesar that I would like to see buried is the one that has already been referred to, and that is the problem of water, especially in rural areas.

Sir, in the policy statement, the hon. Minister talked about the K250 billion that has been provided. I think that is not enough because we need more details on how many Zambians have no access to water yet, especially piped water.

Recently, we were in a workshop with the people from the Zambia Electricity Supply Corporation (ZESCO) and they were telling us that only 23 per cent of Zambians have access to electricity. What about water, how many Zambians have access to clean water and sanitation? Once we know that, then I think we can appreciate how much work the K250 billion is going to do. Even if there has been an increase by another K100 billion from the 2012 Budget, it is not enough for us to just have this figure in the Budget, but to truly appreciate how many households are going to have access to water because of this K250 billion provision.

Mr Chairperson, again, I sympathise with the hon. Member of Parliament for Luena who said that there are still some Zambians who have never seen a tap. I think this is a serious issue. This is why I said I am happy the hon. Minister is a woman because she can truly have compassion for many of us that are coming from rural constituencies, including my colleagues, the Back Benchers from the PF. We are always very sad to see the problems our people have in the rural areas due to water problems. I think we should move beyond the piecemeal approach of: “We will give them ten boreholes this year. We will be providing 3,000 boreholes in the nation”. I think that is enough. There must be a clear plan on how many people we are going to ensure have access to water, particularly in line with the millennium development goals by 2015, in terms of health and access to water. Therefore, I really wish to believe that, hon. Minister, you could have done more on that in your policy statement.

Sir, sometimes, there are overlapping processes …

Mr Kabimba: On a point of order!

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Member: Just continue!

Ms Siliya: … in the Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Child Health and the Ministry of Mines, Energy and Water Development. We need to mop up all this money in the various places for water and put it in one account so to speak, so that we can truly address the problem of water. I wish to truly ask the hon. Minister that if it were possible, let us look around this K1.1 trillion budget and where else we can find money that can be used more productively by providing water.

Mr Chairperson, the next point I would like to make very quickly is with regard to decentralisation. We have heard, many times, that there is no capacity at the district level, and this is why we take time to do certain things. I heard the hon. Minister talking about some district councils being identified and not others. I still wish to believe that there is a lot of capacity in this country. We should just be able to provide these jobs for Zambians at the district level who are going to be able to plan.

When the MMD was a power, we took a quantum leap to provide K1 billion for CDF. That is because we totally understood that we needed to take some of the national resources to the district. I actually agree with those who are calling for a two-tier system approach to the disbursement of CDF. I am sure, on this one, my colleagues at the back there, the PF Back Benchers, many of them from rural areas, will agree with this. 

Mr Chisala: Hear, hear!

Ms Siliya: You cannot have the same proposed K1.3 billion for Lusaka Central and K1.3 billion for Chilubi Island or Petauke. I do not think that is fair. I believe that it is very important …

Mr E. C. Lungu: On a point of order, Sir.

Ms Siliya: Mr Chairperson, I think that it is …

The Chairperson: Order!

Earlier on, the hon. Minister of Justice had asked to raise a point of order and I did not allow him. Now, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs cleverly wants to raise another point of order. Can you hold your fire?

Laughter

The Chairperson: May you, please, continue.

Ms Siliya: Thank you for your protection, Mr Chairperson.

I believe that it is this very dissatisfaction with the amount of CDF we are getting in rural constituencies, particularly my friends, the PF, at the corner, there, that they are not standing up on points of order, but the Front Bench. Because they are also dissatisfied, they want to ensure that when they go for elections next time, they will actually have these resources in their constituencies. Mr Chairperson, I believe that the CDF is well intended and it can do a lot of work at the constituency level. However, I wish to urge the hon. Minister that we need to see quick disbursement of these resources. They should not be used for political purposes to punish certain constituencies where we believe that we have opposition as we have seen in the Western Province where some constituencies get the money and others do not.

Secondly, I think the rules and administration …

Mr Mubukwanu: On a point of order, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah! Iwe, ni bwanji!

The Chairperson: Order!

I think I am being pressured. I thought by not giving the two hon. Ministers who had requested for points of order earlier on, I would stop the points of order but, since it appears there is persistence, I hope the point of order is on an issue of procedure.

A point of order is raised.

Hon. Member: Give Hon. Kabimba first!

Mr Mubukwanu: Mr Chairperson, thank you for giving me an opportunity to rise on a very serious point of order. I am wondering whether the hon. Member who is debating is aware that it is unparliamentary to wear a sleeveless outfit. Is she in order to dress in that manner? 

I need your serious ruling, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

The Chairperson: Order, order!

At least, you have managed, through conspiracy, to raise that point of order.

Laughter

The Chairperson: I knew that that is what the hon. Ministers of Justice and Home Affairs wanted to say.

Laughter

The Chairperson: However, the truth is that the hon. Member of Parliament for Petauke is not properly dressed.

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: I think that for today, I will exercise my discretion.

Laughter

The Chairperson: Next time, be properly dressed.

Can you, please, continue.

Laughter

Mr Mwamba entered the Assembly Chamber.

Hon. Opposition Members: GBM! GBM!

The Chairperson: Order!

Ms Siliya: I thank you for the compliment, hon. Minister.

Sir, getting back to the debate, like I said, today is not the day for praising Caesar, but for burying the problems that we have in this country. I think it is important to remember that. I like to give quotes. Napoleon of Bonaparte once said: “There is somebody wiser than any of us, and that is everybody.” Everybody are the Zambians who are the owners of the Ministry of Local Government and Housing.

Mr Chairperson, I was saying that over the years, we have seen that the rules regarding the CDF are always minister-specific. Every time an hon. Minister comes, they want to bring their own rules and regulations as we have seen even now. I think that it is important that we begin to make rules and administrative procedures that should stand the test of time. These rules should not be about ministers, but they should be able to stand the test of time. They should be made in a manner that will always ensure that they provide common sense and they are practical. We have seen already that, if projects are going to be approved in Lusaka, we will never be able to implement this CDF in one Budget year. The reason we moved the Budget Cycle to have the Budget presented in September instead of January, was to have efficiency in terms of presentation of the Budget. 

Mr Chairperson, I really just want to urge the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing that the issue of water must be addressed. We need to have a timeline in terms of how many households we are going to provide water to. In terms of decentralisation, the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing belaboured the point but, I think, from what the other hon. Members of Parliament have said, we also want to see more specifics and more political will, and not just talking about it because the hon. Minister’s performance will only be measured by deliverables and not just by statements.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Mazoka rose.

The Chairperson: Mrs Mazoka, do you still want to debate? Let me say this. You see, sometimes, when I say I will use my discretionary powers, I am actually being unfair. Just after I made a ruling, another hon. Member came in improperly dressed. I just want to advise Hon. Professor Nkandu Luo to come properly dressed next time. Just as I made a ruling on Hon. Siliya, I will not chase you from the Chamber for today.

Laughter

Mr Mooya (Moomba): Mr Chairperson, I wholeheartedly support the Vote. However, I would like to state that, this morning, as I was driving towards the National Assembly, I noticed that the traffic lights at the junction of Nangwenya and Thabo Mbeki Roads, but there is traffic building up there on both sides of the road. Putting up traffic lights at that junction has worsened the situation. I am therefore, requesting the hon. Minister to immediately look into that. We do not want any hon. Member of Parliament to be involved in an accident because of too much traffic. Before these traffic lights were put up, the traffic situation was okay.

Sir, secondly, the two foot bridges along the Lusaka/Kafue Road are white elephants and a waste of money. That is money down the drain. There are very few people using those foot bridges, and I am wondering whether there was any research carried out before putting them up. Probably, what could be done is put barriers along the road so that people will have no choice, but to use the foot bridges. Otherwise, the K6 billion spent on constructing the two bridges is a waste of money. I am also wondering whether there is supposed to be a third bridge near Makeni. I am asking the hon. Minister to carry out research before putting up another white elephant.

Mr Chairperson, let me now talk about housing. The hon. Member for Luena talked a bit about this issue. The hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing, in her policy statement, stated that we have a backlog of 1.5 million housing units. However, I remember, last year, the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing gave a different figure of three million as a deficit. I am now wondering which figure is the correct one. Assuming the three million figure is the correct one, this is a very big problem. There is a housing crisis in Zambia which should be declared a national disaster.

Mr Chairperson, assuming the three million housing units are low cost, we know that for an average low cost house measuring 6mx10m, the cost per square metre is about US $200, which is roughly K1 million per square metre. Now that a 6mx10m house has is 60m², which is K60 million, the three million for ten years, if we can use that rate of K300,000 to build, as you can see, multiplying K60 million by K300,000 gives K18 trillion, which is about two-thirds of the Budget. 

Sir, what I am trying to emphasise is that this is not an easy task, but a huge crisis and a huge mountain to climb. I hear, in his answer, the hon. Minister says that there is a new policy which is being revised and that the Government will take on board the Private Public Partnership (PPP). My question is that we had the National Housing Bond Trust, in June, 2006, which had the mechanism of the PPP, but we do not know what has happened to it. So, let us not underrate this issue. Otherwise, it will be like the Titanic, which set off and saw a tip of an iceberg, and yet under the water the iceberg was so huge that when the ship hit it, there was a disaster. So, this figure, especially the K1.5 million, is being underrated. It is so vast and for me, to involve the private sector alone is not a solution. Both the Government and the private sector should join hands to meet this deficit. In 1996, the first policy gave an estimate of 840,000 deficit and the rate was given of 110,000 each year for ten years. That was in 1996 but, today, there is nothing happening.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to urge the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing, as she comes to wrap up debate, to tell us the exact deficit, whether it is 1.5 million or 3 million. I would like to know what the actual deficit is. 

Those are the three issues I wanted to raise.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Bwalya (Lupososhi): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me an opportunity to support the Votes on the Floor and add a few words to those of hon. Members who have already spoken. The increasing of grants to councils is a very welcome move because it will definitely enhance the delivery of services to people in rural areas, especially in Luwingu District. I am also happy with this because it will now mean that there will be qualified human resource in rural district councils, which have been lacking for a long time because the district councils have not been able to attract qualified personnel. So I am hoping that this increase in grants will definitely enhance the quality of work in the rural district councils, especially in Luwingu District.

Mr Chairperson, the issue of feeder roads that was earlier mentioned is yet another concern that has been rocking district councils, especially for some of us who are in rural constituencies. I happen to have seen a memorandum of understanding (MoU) which has been signed between the Road Development Road (RDA), Ministry of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication and Ministry of Local Government and Housing. It is a very good MoU which needs to be looked at so that the implementation of the budget provisions as regards feeder roads is speeded up.

Mr Chairperson, there is lack of equipment within the local councils for working on the roads. This lack of equipment is so bad that money for doing feeder roads can be there, but the work cannot be done. So it is critically important that we look at the issue of equipping the local authorities like in the past when they had graders, compactors and other equipment that go with the issue of road development.

Mr Chairperson, the other issue that I want to refer to is the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). I think the circulars coming from the ministry, like earlier stated, are a source of concern. I think the hon. Minister needs to preside over this matter so that we do not kill the very spirit of decentralisation, as some of the hon. Members have already indicated. I do not think there is any hon. Member of Parliament in here that would want to go by what has been suggested in the circulars that have been sent to us by the ministry.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Bwalya: I think it is important that when we speak, we are heard and the Government acts accordingly so that we can move forward. These are the progressive ideas that we need to embrace. 

Interruptions

Mr Bwalya: Mr Chairperson, I also want to talk about policy harmonisation. The Ministry of Local Government and Housing has a department that is responsible for community development as well as one for public health. The hon. Minister needs to work on ensuring that these departments collaborate very closely with other ministries that have the same mandate so that we do not have a situation where we will create a vacuum when it is not supposed to be there. One ministry can be waiting for the other to implement certain Government programmes while the other is also expecting the counterpart to do the same.  As we implement this budget, different departments which have similar mandates should come up with ways of working together.

Mr Chairperson, these are the few things that I wanted to put forward. Thank you.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank you most sincerely for according me the opportunity to debate the Vote for the Ministry of Local Government and Housing. In my view, and those of the hon. Minister of Justice, this particular ministry is a government of the people for the people. This is the ministry that is supposed to provide the requisite services to the people of Zambia on behalf of the central Government.

Mr Chairperson, in my view, this is one of the most important ministries because it looks after the major components of the welfare of our people in Zambia. Alas, this particular ministry has not been provided with the requisite policy guidelines and resources to ensure that it provides the needful to the people of Zambia. As I debate, I would like to remind our colleagues on your right about our vision when we were together as a pact and the decisions we took on the Floor of this House pertaining to the issues which we wanted to ensure were addressed.

Mr Chairperson, firstly, I would like to talk about the Local Government Service Commission. Together, the United Party for National Development (UPND) and Patriotic Front (PF) strongly opposed the setting up of the Local Government Service Commission. Both parties gave very tangible reasons for having opposed the establishment of this commission. One of the issues Hon. Kambwili and I addressed was that this particular institution was going to breed indiscipline in the local authorities. We also said that it was going to create divided loyalty in the local authorities. This is exactly what has happened. As a result of the bureaucracy in determining disciplinary issues, indiscipline has crept in the local government system.

Mr Chairperson, I am also aware that most of the officers now are not loyal to the local authorities. They are loyal to the Local Government Service Commission. They do not listen to hon. Members of Parliament or councilors because they know that we are actually impotent. There is nothing that we can do to them.

Mr Chairperson, having realised that, we would like the hon. Minister and the Local Government Service Commission to devise ways of ensuring that local authorities also have powers to discipline members of staff. If we do not have powers to discipline staff, even all these so-called good ideas we would like to implement will never come to fruition. I would like to urge the hon. Minister to look at this issue very seriously. We are aware of disciplinary cases that have taken more than five years to be disposed off because they are being prevailed over by the Local Government Service Commission. As this commission is structured currently, it has no powers and resources to ensure that it expedites issues of discipline in the local authorities.

The other issue which I would like to bring to your attention, Mr Chairperson, is the issue of contradictory statements that are coming from the different members of the PF Government regarding the management of bus stations and markets as well as the issue of street vending. This week or late last week, the hon. Minister of Tourism and Art in Livingstone castigated members of the Opposition for encouraging members of the public to trade on the streets. That was her statement in Livingstone. She said that she will ensure that members of the Opposition are disciplined for encouraging street vending when in actual fact it is not them who are encouraging street vending, but the policy of the PF Government. The hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing is on record of having said on the Floor of this House that there is no more street vending, but street trading and that it was legal. So, who is encouraging who? It is the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing who is encouraging street vending and squalor. It is the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing who is encouraging cholera to break out come this rainy season. It is her through the policies of the PF Government.

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, four years ago, we passed a law on the Floor of this House entitled Bus Stations and Markets Act. Under this Act, it is provided that no private person shall manage a bus station and market in this country, but alas, the Ministry of Local Government and Housing has allowed anarchy to prevail contrary to law that we passed in this House. The bus stations are being managed by cadres. Markets have been abandoned. We are appealling for funding from donors to build markets. Why would we want to be asking for funding when we cannot utilise the markets which we have been built at a great cost? The Nakadoli Market in Kitwe is empty when it was built at a very high cost through the assistance of the donors. The New Wing of the City Market in Lusaka is empty. People are not utilising it. Why should we be asking for donor funding to build markets when we do not need them? It is a fallacy.

Mr Chairperson, the other issue which I would like to bring to the attention of my good friend, the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing, is the issue of boreholes. Despite appreciating the intention to build boreholes for our people in the rural areas, I still feel that we are trying to provide water for our people using archaic technology. I am aware that in other countries in the 17th Century, people were using windmills to draw water. In neighbouring countries like Botswana, people use windmills to draw water. They do that because they know that water from boreholes is not just for human consumption, but also used for domestic animals. We have gone back to the 5th Century B.C. by using boreholes.  We want to be using shadufs in our constituencies to provide water in this century. We should abandon the use of hand pumps. We should be using windmills if we cannot access the other technologies which are suitable for this particular century.

The other issue which I would like to bring to the attention of the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing is the issue of planning. Unfortunately, if the hon. Minister who is not listening to what I am saying does not take appropriate action against the party cadres who seem to have become planning authorities in most of these jurisdictions, we shall have disorder.  We are all aware that during our colleagues rule, the MMD, the party cadres were reigning supreme. They were the planning authorities. They used to allocate land any how. Us from the UPND together with those from the PF, used to condemn those actions. Unfortunately, that is a malady now repeating itself through the PF cadres. The PF cadres are busy allocating land and grabbing other people’s land. We should not allow anarchy to prevail. 

Mr Chairperson, together with the PF, we used to say that there is no local authority in the world that can stand on its own feet without strong financial support from the Central Government. That was what we believed in. I tend to think that they still believe in that, but there is no political will to ensure that is effected.

Mr Mpundu: Nakolwa.

Mr Mwiimbu: I hear you, but usually ignorance is very loud.

Mr Mushanga: Nakolwa.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, I hear somebody with a demented mind shouting. There is a place which is 2 km away from here along the Great East Road where those with demented minds are supposed to go.

The Chairperson:  Order! 

We are really getting out of the confines of what we should be doing. I think that these running commentaries sometimes have the effect of derailing a debate. So, can you, please, avoid running commentaries. I hope the running commentaries will not make the hon. Member who is on the Floor to begin making comments that should not be made.

You can continue, please.

Mr Mwiimbu: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. If it were not that all the good words are unparliamentary, I would have used them, but I have chosen to accept your guidance.

The Chairperson: Order! Do not qualify the Chair’s ruling.

You can continue, please.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, I was saying that in the world, there is no council that is able to stand on its own feet without adequate financial support. I have noted that from the time of the MMD to date, we always believe that local authorities can stand on their own without the requisite support from the Central Government. I am aware that the Government provides some grants to local authorities. These grants are inadequate. I just hope that the structured measures of sharing resources with local authorities which the hon. Minister of Finance intends to come up with will not be delayed. If we do not come up with a structured way of sharing resources, we will continue coming to this House to complain about the performance of local authorities. I can assure you the same slogans we were using when we were trying to remove UNIP from power such as, “UNIP is cholera”, are the same ones which will be used against the PF. Come this season, I can assure you with the policies you have enunciated and with heavy rains that are around the corner, we are going to have cholera. We are also going to say PF is cholera because of the failure to implement measures which can make our councils maintain hygienic environments.

Mr Chairperson, I am aware that my good friend, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs cannot comment on the problems in his constituency and I, therefore, would like to speak on his behalf.

Hon. UPND Member: Hear, hear!

Mr E. C. Lungu Laughed.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, the people of Chawama are suffering. There are no requisite roads in Misisi Compound. Come the rain season, most of the townships in Chawama are flooded. If the PF Government wants to save my friend in the next elections, it should provide money so that roads and drainages are put up for the sake of our people and my friend, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs. The hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing should put money in this area. I know that she has been talking about the drainage system in Lusaka, but there is nothing much that is being done. She should act on the issue of drainages.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Namulambe (Mpongwe): Mr Chairperson, begin by saying that the ministry we are debating is very important, and that it is no longer attractive to work in local authorities because some of the staff heading some of these councils are not inspiring. I say so because I have served in councils before. Some of us used to be inspired by people like Hon. Jack Mwiimbu, Hon. Wynter Kabimba, Hon. Emmanuel Chenda …

Ms Siliya: Hear, hear!

Mr Namulambe: … and Mr Ali Simwinga. However, these people are gone.

Hon. Member: Where?

Hon. Members: They are here.

Laughter

Mr Namulambe: They are no longer serving in the local authorities.

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Namulambe: They are into their own issues.

Mr V. Mwale: They are chola boys.

Laughter

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, the work of the Local Government Service Commission (LGSC) is to make local authorities attractive by appointing people with the right qualifications. It should not look at faces. Further, when transferring officials, it should not transfer problems. I say so because, within the few months that the commission has been in existence, it has made Mpongwe District Council, which was once vibrant, go down by sending incompetent officers. It has sent a Director of Finance who was undisciplined, somewhere, to Mpongwe in a position that is supposed to be for a council treasurer. So, what sort of activities are these? Another example is where it has sent a clerk, who does not understand issues of management of local authorities, to become a council secretary. It is doing things the way it pleases. Let this commission be able to add value in local authorities.

 Sir, in trying to do add value to local governance, the ministry should take up the responsibility of building capacity in officers in local authorities. It must ensure that these people are properly trained. With the coming of the LGSC, the ministry should take up the responsibility of training staff because it would be absurd for Mpongwe District Council, for example, to train an officer who, immediately after training, despite the bonding, is transferred to another council. Let the ministry provide adequate funding, for instance, to the Chalimbana Local Government Training Institute, which has been neglected for quite some time. It trains staff in Local Government Finance and Local Government Administration. However, its funding for 2013 is only K4.5 billion. The highest activity for course training is just about K55 million, which is very insignificant. Let the ministry also take the responsibility of sponsoring staff from respective local authorities so that we have qualified manpower in these councils. 

Mr Chairperson, we have the Mulungushi University, which is offering a degree programme in Local Government Administration. If we are to have effective chief executive officers in local authorities, the ministry should take up the sponsorship of officers for training in Local Government Administration. So far, if you go to Mulungushi University, a class which is supposed to be of thirty only has three doing the degree in Local Government Administration because very few councils are able to pay the training fees that are required at that institution. 

Sir, if we are to have quality service delivery in local authorities, we need properly-trained staff. We are talking about decentralisation. If we are to achieve proper decentralisation in Zambia, we ought to have properly-qualified staff in local authorities, and this is the more reason the ministry should take up the responsibility of providing adequate funds to sponsor staff in the local authorities, as it used to be in the past.

Mr Chairperson, in Mpongwe District Council, for instance, the major source of revenue was the Grain Levy. Following the abolition of that levy, there was a compensatory grant. Almost three-quarters of our Budget in Mpongwe depended on the compensatory grant. However, with the harmonisation of salaries, the ministry decided to suspend the compensatory grant to the local authorities and, instead, said that it would do a variation so as to pay the harmonised salaries. What surprised all of us is that the ministry was only able to cater for officers in Divisions I to III, leaving the majority of the general workers without money. We were told that councils should find the resources to pay the general workers. Where are we going to find the resources because the local authorities do not have adequate sources of income? 

Sir, if you say that you will suspend the grants, do you want those people who do the donkey work to go without salaries? These officers in Divisions I to III cannot go to sweep markets or clean drainages, yet be left without salaries. It is not fair. Let the ministry look at the people who are very critical in the running of local authorities, and, in particular, to providing services.

Mr Chairperson, we have seen that there are quite a good number of provisions in the Yellow Book for grants next year. We want timely release of these grants to the local authorities. Let us look at the local authorities with poor revenue base and give them more money. What we have seen in the past is that the local authorities with poor revenue base are the least-funded while those councils with a lot of property where they get money in form of rates are the ones that receive more funding. I think that there should be a system in which the small councils benefit more than the bigger ones. It is for this reason that I to agree with the hon. Member of Parliament for Luena that we are going to approve a block figure for the CDF. I would suggest that you go and sit down to work out a ratio at which the local authorities which do not benefit from other provisions of capital projects, such as the urban roads, receive more funding so that we are equal in terms of providing services to the people.

Ms Imenda: Hear, hear!

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, I am reluctantly saying yes to the amendment which has been moved on CDF because I have seen, for instance, that the amount for CDF has gone to K1.3 billion. Our initial request was for it to have been increased to K5 billion. 

Hon. Government Members: Ah!

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, however, I only saw the Order Paper today, and I was not sure when it was going to come.  Had I known, I would have moved an amendment to increase this amount further. However, reluctantly, I will accept the K1.3 billion.

Interruptions

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, however, I demand that the money be released on time, instead of towards the end of the year. This is the only money that councils use to deliver services to the people. Now, local authorities are not able to provide the required services as provided under the Local Government Act. If there are councils in Zambia which are providing services to the people, they are very few. We are lucky that the rate payers do not take these councils to court for failure to provide the required services as provided under the Local Government Act. 

Mr Chairperson, I want to incite all the rate payers in Zambia to start taking the local authorities to court for their failure to provide services.

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Namulambe, I think that the idea should not be to incite people. You should not debate in that manner. 

You may continue.

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, I am encouraging people to ensure that they go to monitor the books in the local authorities to ensure that the money that they pay goes to providing the required services.

Mr Chairperson, I have seen the figures here, and want to end by saying that the hon. Ministers in this ministry must be prepared to give us proper answers, the way the hon. Minister of Justice did. I will sit down so that I can start preparing. Let them get set.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter

Mrs Kabanshi: Mr Chairperson, thank you very much. I would like to thank all the hon. Members who contributed to the debate. 

Sir, this Government is committed to improving the livelihood of the people in the rural areas like where my sister comes from. I also experience the same things where I come from. We are sisters and experience the same things. I want the lives of people in rural areas to improve, and that is why you have seen that the amount allocated to the provision of clean water and sanitation in the rural areas has increased very much.

Mr Chairperson, let me come to Hon. Dr Chituwo’s comments. Sometimes, we have to look at where we are coming from. What happened in previous years is that the infrastructure of the utility companies was neglected. This infrastructure was installed in the 1950s and we are still using it today. Currently, in Kafubu, for instance, there is a lot of infrastructure that has collapsed and we are failing to provide water to the people. I am saying that the Government has provided a lot of money to improve the infrastructure in the utility companies and will continue doing so until it manages to provide sanitation and clean drinking water for all the people in Zambia.

Mr Chairperson, on the issue of the LGSC, this Government is committed to promoting good governance. That is why we are not interfering with the work of the commission. We want it to deliver. If it does not, we will go back to it and discipline it. It has been mandated to recruit, discipline and improve the human resource in local authorities.

Mr Chairperson, let me come to …

Laughter

Mrs Kabanshi: … the CDF. The Government has been very generous this year because it has increased the amount K300,000 …

Hon. Members: It is K300 million.

Mrs Kabanshi: Mr Chairperson, it has increased by K300 million. Last year, the amount for CDF was K1 billion. This year, it will be K1.3 billion. I think that is a step in the right direction.

Hon. Opposition: Hear, hear!

Mrs Kabanshi: Mr Chairperson, this Government knows that, if it gives the constituencies this fund, then development will reach the people in rural areas. However, I would like to say that the rules of the disbursement of CDF have to be strengthened because there is a lot of misappropriation of funds in the councils, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Kabanshi: … in the rural areas and everywhere else. I have seen this from the Auditor-General’s report that is in my office. That is why I think that allocating K5 billion to CDF will be too much. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

Mrs Kabanshi: Mr Chairperson, we should first build capacity in these local authorities so that they can handle bigger amounts of money.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Mrs Kabanshi: Mr Chairperson, this Government has increased the allocation to the improvement of markets and bus stations. Last year, only K2 billion was allocated but, this year, it is K21 billion. This has happened because this Government wants to build markets in the residential areas so that most people can buy what they want in their residential areas, instead of going to the central business districts (CBDs). 

Mr Chairperson, lastly, I thank all the people who contributed to the debate. We have taken note of all the contributions and we will act on them.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: Order!

We now move to individual items under those Heads.

Vote 20/04 – (Loans and Investments – Local Government and Housing – Physical Planning and Housing Department – K12,141,600,000).

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 5055, Activity 010 – Support to Provincial Planning Offices – K1,480,000,000. What kind of support is this, because I know that these offices are budgeted for under Provincial Administration? On Programme 5003, Activity 007 – Ministerial and Provincial GIS Support – K800,000,000, what is involved under this activity? Further, on Programme 5073, Activity 001 – Monitoring and Evaluation – Various – K365, 000,000, if you look at the activities on top, they are about workshops and meetings. Therefore, what is going to be monitored and evaluated?

The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr Tembo): Mr Chairperson, Programme 5055, Activity 010 – Support to Provincial Planning Offices – K1,480,000,000, this amount is meant for facilitating the smooth running of the provincial offices. This provision is required to meet costs related to the general administration of the offices.

I thank you, Sir.

The Chairperson: Is that an answer to all the three questions?

Interruption 

The Chairperson: I am just seeking clarification. Is that an answer to cover all the three areas that the hon. Member raised?

Laughter

Interruptions 

The Chairperson: Order!

May be the hon. Minister did not get the questions. To be fair to him, can you repeat your three questions.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

The interruptions that you make disturb the person answering the questions.

Please, repeat your questions.

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5055, Activity 010 – Support to Provincial Planning Offices – K1,480,000,000. Why do we have this provision, and yet these offices are provided for under each provincial administration respectively?

Hon. Opposition Membersinterjected.

Laughter

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Namulambe: Sir,secondly, I seek clarification on Programme 5003, Activity 007 – Ministerial and Provincial GIS Support – K800,000,000. What is this money meant for? Thirdly, on Programme 5073, Activity 001 – Monitoring and Evaluation – Various – K365,000,000. What are they going to monitor and evaluate when the amounts above will be used for workshops and meetings? What is it that they are going to monitor to warrant this amount?

Interruptions 

Mr Tembo: Mr Chairperson, Programme 5055, Activity 010 – Support to Provincial Planning Offices – K1,480,000,000, this amount is meant for supporting the provincial offices to carry out inspections of sites and administration. They do not receive adequate funds for the province.

I thank you, Sir.

The Chairperson: What about the other two questions?

The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr Kufuna): Mr Chairperson,   Programme 5003, Activity 007 – Ministerial and Provincial GIS Support – K800,000,000, this amount is meant for GIS licensing and upgrading of geographical data, maintenance, provincial tours and GIS in-house training.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members:Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: What about the Monitoring and Evaluation –Various?

Mr Tembo: Mr Chairperson, Programme 5073, Activity 001 – Monitoring and Evaluation – various – K365,000,000, this amount is to facilitate for the monitoring of the IT projects being undertaken by both the ministry and local authorities.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr L. J. Ngoma (Sinda): Mr Chairperson, the response from the hon. Deputy Minister is not clear to me. Programme 5003, Activity 007 – Ministerial and Provincial GIS Support – K800,000,000. What does GIS stand for?

The Chairperson: Order!

I think the answer was given unless you are saying that you do not agree with the answer.

Mr L. J. Ngoma: Mr Chairperson, I am talking about the abbreviation GIS. What does it stand for?

Mr Tembo: Mr Chairperson, it stands for Geographic Information Services.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 20/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 20/06 – (Loans and Investments –Local Government and Housing –Infrastructure and Support Services – K901,865,201,801).

Dr Musokotwane (Liuwa): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5011, Activity 004 – Rehabilitation of Access Roads (1) – K17,500,000,000, Activity 007 – Road Rehabilitation (3) – K23,300,000,000. I would like to know where these rehabilitations works will take place.

Mr Kufuna: Mr Chairperson, Programme 5011, Activity 004 – Rehabilitation of Access Roads (1) – K17,500,000,000, this amount involves the repair and rehabilitation of roads, footpaths and footbridges. It is also meant for the improvement of feeder roads in rural areas in order to improve accessibility. 

I thank you, Sir.

The Chairperson: What about the other question?

Laughter 

Mr Kufuna: Mr Chairperson, Programme, 5011, Activity 007 – Road Rehabilitation (3) – K23,300,000,000, this amount is meant for the repair, rehabilitation and maintenance of roads in order to improve our road network in Zambia; both urban and rural areas.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyanda (Mapatizya): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5011, Activity 007 – Road Rehabilitation (3) – K23,300,000,000. According to the hon. Minister, this is both for rural and urban areas, but this amount has been reduced from K63 billion. If we are serious, why are we reducing like that?

The Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTIEES in the 
Chair]

Mr Tembo: Mr Chairperson, the activity has been reduced due the reduction in donor support. 

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Ms Lubezhi (Namwala): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5011, Activity 165 – Lusaka Ring-Road Relocation Compensation – Nil. I have noticed that there is no allocation for 2013. Did you compensate everyone?

Mr Tembo: Mr Chairperson, this activity was for the facilitation of compensations to the people whose houses where earmarked for demolition.

I thank you, Sir.

Interruptions

Mr Tembo: So, in short, the Activity has been completed.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Siliya: Mr Chairperson, just as a follow up, the question was whether or not everyone was compensated and not … 

Hon. Government Members: Yes!

Ms Siliya: Sir, I do not know how many Ministers of Local Government and Housing there are.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: They are aspiring to be, but the position is occupied.

Laughter 

Ms Siliya: I hope it is not my dress that is confusing my Bemba brothers.

Laughter 

Hon. Government Member: Aah!

The Chairperson: Order!

Make your point.

Ms Siliya: The question was whether all the people had been compensated and not whether the activity has been completed.

Mr Tembo: Mr Chairperson, allow me to repeat the answer. This activity was for the facilitation of compensations to the people whose houses were earmarked for demolition. The whole activity was completed and all the people were compensated.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5011, Activity 014 – Peri-Urban Water Supply – K105,619,700,748 and Activity 125 – Water Supply Development – Construction and Rehabilitation of Water Points (Boreholes) (42) (43) – K198,946,993005. May I, please, be informed what the share of Liuwa out of this amount is, whether now or in future?

Mr Kufuna: Mr Chairperson, it is difficult to give that answer now.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5011, Activity 004 – Rehabilitation of Access Roads (1) – K17,500,000,000 and Activity 007 – Road Rehabilitation (3) – K23,300,000,000. As your MP’s, we would like to get clear answers from your hon. Ministers. This is an activity-based Budget. Each line is supposed to have an explanation on how the money will be used. The question that begs an answer is which particular roads are going to be worked on under the two Votes. 

Mr Tembo: Mr Chairperson, the infrastructure development plan will be presented to hon. Members of Parliament once the Budget is approved.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulomba (Magoye): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5011, Activity 003 – Construction – K 20,644,201,801. In this year’s Budget there is an allocation of K1 billion. however, in next year’s Budget the figure has risen to K20,644,201,801. May I know what type of infrastructure is going to be constructed and in which areas?

Mr Tembo: Mr Chairperson, this activity involves the construction of modern retail markets and bus stations in both urban and rural areas. The activity has been increased to meet the rise in demand from local authorities.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme …

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, the Budget we are debating this afternoon is an activity-based one. The various ministries are supposed to know which particular activity will take place under that particular Vote. Is the Ministry of Local Government and Housing in order to tell us, when we are considering this Budget, that they will be able to provide us with the details once the Budget is approved? I thought they were supposed to prepare the Budget with the lines and activities before they come here. Are they in order to mislead this House? Are we supposed to be rubber stamping instead of being given proper information?

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The ruling on the point of order is that the ministry concerned has undertaken to bring an appropriate plan which will itemise the items that fall under each of the Heads that are being considered.

Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairperson, before there was a point of order, I was on Programme 5011, Activity 163 – Production and Distribution of Manuals – K60,000,000. What will these manuals be about?

Sir, I also seek clarification on Programme 5030, Activity 071 – Review of the National Housing Policy – K200,000,000. This year, there was a provision of K200,000,000 and next year, the same amount has been proposed. Is the revision finally coming to an end next year? 

Mr Kufuna: Mr Speaker, Activity 163 – Production and Distribution of Manual – K200,000,000 involves the production of manuals on housing strategies which will be developed.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Tembo: Mr Chairperson, Programme 5030, Activity 071 – Review of the National Housing Policy – K200,000,000 involves the review of 1996 National Housing Policy to bring it up to date to the current socio-economic situation.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 5011, Activity 021 – Construction of Low Cost Houses – K16,200,000,000. Where are these houses going to be constructed? 

Sir, my second question is on Programme 5056, Activity 001 – Refuse Collection – K3,887,000,000. Is this money going to be provided as a grant to councils or is it the ministry which is going to be responsible for refuse collection?

Mr Kufuna: Mr Speaker, Programme 5011, Activity 021 – Construction of Low Cost Houses – K16.2 billion is for the construction of highly affordable low cost houses in order to empower Zambian citizens with decent accommodation. The allocation to the activity has been increased in order to meet rising costs of building materials in the new districts.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Tembo: Sir, Programme 5056, Activity 001 – Refuse Collection – K3,887,000,000 is for the facilitation of garbage collection in our cities and towns so that we can keep them clean and safe. We hope to develop sustainable strategies for solid waste management.

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Livune: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 5011, Activity 009 – Rehabilitation of Six Towns – K6,234,413,965. I would like to know which six towns will be rehabilitated.

Mr Tembo: Mr Chairperson, this activity involves the rehabilitation of existing water supply and sanitation facilities in Kawambwa and Mansa in phase I. In phase II, it will be Kasama, Mbala, Mpika and Chililabombwe.

I thank you, Sir.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 5056, Activity 001 – Refuse Collection – K3,897,000,000. In his response to a question, the hon. Minister indicated that the allocation was going to be used for refuse collection in major towns. I am aware that all the major towns have outsourced this activity to private companies. Copperbelt has a company called Cop-Waste and Lusaka has several companies that go round collecting litter to take to their land fill. Can he explain how exactly the councils are going to use this money in the towns which he spoke about.

Mr Tembo: Mr Chairperson, the local authorities have a working programme. They will know how to distribute that money.

I thank you, Sir.

Interruptions

Mr Simbao: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 5011, Activity 004 – Rehabilitation of Access Roads (1) – K17,500,000,000 and Activity 007 – Road Rehabilitation (3) – K23,300,000,000. I want to know if Senga Hill Constituency will benefit from these two activities and if not, which constituencies will benefit?

Mr Tembo: Mr Chairperson, as I indicated, we cannot give the answers right now. 

Interruptions

Mr Tembo: The details will come after the approval of the Budget. 

Interruptions

Mr Tembo: The Infrastructure Development Plan (IDP) will provide those details.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Kalima: On a point of order, Sir.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The first question was that, “Will Senga Hill be among the beneficiaries?”

Mr Tembo: Mr Chairperson, the answer is no.

I thank you, Sir.

Interruptions

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification…

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

When the Chairperson is talking, you should sit down. We have time and again emphasised that we should not be debating through points of order. The business we are transacting is very serious and we have a time frame within which we must complete the exercise. I hope you will always take that into account as you raise points of order because I can see that there is a craze of rising on points of order sometimes, unnecessarily. I hope that will not continue to be the case. May the hon. Member continue, please. 

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Chairperson, Programme 5011 …

Interruptions 

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! 

Once you are given guidance, it is important to take it seriously. We have serious business to transact. I hope that some of the point of orders which will be raised will not be flimsy.

Mr Mbulakulima: … Activity 021 – Construction …

Ms Kalima: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Ms Kalima: Mr Chairperson, I am very worried with the type of answers which we are getting from the hon. Deputy Ministers of Local Government and Housing, while the Cabinet Minister responsible for that portfolio seems to be very comfortable in her seat and is not helping with the giving some answers. We are here to approve the Budget after knowing the activities. Is the hon. Deputy Minister in order to tell us that the plan will come after the approval of the Budget? How do we approve something that we do not know? Are we here to play games? We are asking questions because we need to know certain things. We are not here for an academic exercise. I seek your serious ruling.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: The serious ruling is that this is an activity based Budget. Each Vote has been given a title and below it, there are activities which are to be carried out. It is not possible to indicate a breakdown of every activity in this book.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

If you do not want the ruling, I will call for another hon. Member to continue debating.

The ruling is that the ministry has undertaken to give us a break down of the activities to which the particular Vote that we are considering relates. You will notice that we have considered so many Votes and approved them on the understanding that once a budget line has been approved, the ministry will give a breakdown of the items to which it relates. The way some hon. Members are asking questions is like asking the hon. Minister to give us a list of all the civil servants who will benefit from the allocation for salaries in his or her ministry. I think, let us be reasonable if we are to make progress. Since the ministry has made the appropriate undertaking, the ruling is that we leave things were they are. Continue Hon. Mbulakulima.

Ms Siliya: Let us walk out.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! 

I can hear some members saying that let us walk out. This is not a picnic. Please, you are here as individual members representing the people that voted for you. What we are transacting is on radio and the people have heard a lady voice saying, “Let us walk out.” If you are tried, you walk out and the people will know.

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Chairperson …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Mbulakulima: … of Low Cost Houses – K16,200,000,000. This being an activity based Budget, I would like to find out whether Milengi District is included.

Mr Chairperson, may I again seek clarification on the same Programme 5011, Activity 132 – Construction of Low Cost Houses for the Poorest of the Poor (ZLCHDFT) – K1,000,000,000. Milengi is again one of the poorest districts, I would like to know whether it is included in this activity.

Mr Chairperson, I need your indulgence because I believe that if you have to make a change on behalf of the people of Milengi, it is at this stage that I need to participate. When the list is prepared and given to me I will have little to say. It is for that reason that I need …

Mr Deputy Chairperson: Make your point please.

Mr Mbulakulima: I thank you, Sir.

Mr Tembo: Mr Chairperson, the provision which Hon. Mbulakulima asked about was for the construction and promotion of highly affordable low costs houses in order to empower Zambian citizens with decent accommodation. The allocation for the activity has been increased in order to meet the rising cost of building materials. This activity will also be carried out in the fifteen newly created districts. The procedure is that once we have approved this Budget, the local authorities are supposed to submit their working plans to indicate the numbers of the houses which will be constructed. That is the procedure.

I thank you, Sir.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! 

VOTE 20/06– (Loans and Investments-Local Government and Housing-Infrastructure and Support services-K901,865,201,801).

Hon Opposition Members called for a division.

Question that VOTE 20/06– (Loans and Investments-Local Government and Housing-Infrastructure and Support services-K901,865,201,801 be amended put and the House voted.

Ayes – (65)

Mr Banda
Mr Banda
Mrs Banda
Mr Bwalya
Mr Chabala
Colonel Chanda
Mr Chansa
Mr Chenda
Mr Chikwanda
Mr Chilangwa
Mr Chisala
Mr Chitotela
Mr Chungu
Mrs Kabanshi
Mr Kabimba
Mr Kalaba
Mr Kampyongo
Ms Kansembe
Ms Kapata
Mr Kapaya
Mr Kapeya
Mr Kapyanga
Dr Kasonde
Mrs Kawandami
Mrs Kazunga
Mr Kosamu
Mr Kufuna
Ms Limata 
Dr Lungu
Mr Lungu
Professor Luo
Mrs Masebo
Mr Masumba
Mr Matafwali
Mr Mbulu
Mr Mpundu
Mr Mubukwanu
Mr Muchima
Mr Mukanga
Mr Mulenga
Mr Mumba
Mr Mushanga
Mr Musukwa
Mr Mutale
Mr Mwali
Mr Mwaliteta
Mr Mwamba
Mr Mwango
Mr Mwenya
Mr Mwewa
Mr Mwila
Mr Ngoma
Mr Phiri
Mr Sakeni
Dr Scott
Mr Sichone
Mr Sichula
Mr Sikazwe
Mr Simbyakula
Mr Simuusa 
Mr Taima
Mr Tembo
Professor Willombe
Mr Zimba
Mr Zulu

Noes – (37)

Mr Banda
Mr Belemu
Mr Chingimbu
Mr Chishiba
Dr Chituwo
Mr Chungu
Mr Hamusonde
Mr Kaingu
Ms Kalima
Dr Kazonga
Mr Livune
Ms Lubezhi
Professor Lungwangwa
Mrs Mazoka
Mr Mbewe
Mr Mbulakulima
Mr Miyanda
Mr Mooya
Mr Mufalali
Mr Mulomba
Mr Mulusa
Dr Musokotwane
Mr Mutati
Mr Mutelo
Mr Mwale
Mr Mwanza
Mr Mwiimbu
Mr Namulambe
Mr Ngoma
Mr Nkombo
Mr Ntundu
Mr Siamunene
Mr Sianga
Mr Sililo
Ms Siliya
Mr Simbao
Mr Zimba

Abstentions – (02)

Ms Imenda
Mr Taundi

Question accordingly agreed to.

Vote 20/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 20/09 – (Loans and Investment – Local Government and Housing – Decentralisation Secretariat – K22,184,293,699) 

Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5013, Activity 018 –Publication and Dissemination of Guidelines on ADCs – K300,000,000, and Programme 5030, Activity 115 – Publication and Dissemination of Guidelines on ADCs – K300,000,000. What is the difference between the two activities? 

Mr Kufuna: Mr Chairperson, Programme 5013, Activity 018 and and Programme 5030, Activity 115 are for the publication and dissemination of materials on planning and budgeting reforms under decentralisation.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairperson, I have a follow-up question. 

The Deputy Chairperson: Mr Namulambe. 

Dr Kazonga: They are exactly the same.

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, to follow-up on Hon. Dr Kazonga’s question, this activity is the same for both programmes. Can the hon. Minister clarify. Secondly, may I have clarification on Programme 5030, Activity 123 – Dissemination of Revised Legislation to Stakeholders – K1,000,000,000. Which stakeholders are these? I also seek further clarification on Programme 5058, Activity 005 – Establishment of Provincial and District Decentralisation Taskforce – K2,150,000,000. Was anything done under this activity this year to warrant an increase from K1.1 billion to K2.1 billion? 

Mr Tembo: Mr Chairperson, Programme 5058, Activity 005 will facilitate the establishment of a taskforce at the provincial and district levels that will co-ordinate the decentralisation process. The decrease is due to the fact that some taskforces have been formed. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Laughter 

Hon. Opposition Members: Decrease or increase?

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! 

Why am I not allowed to control the proceedings? 

Hon. Minister, provide the answers to the other two questions raised. 

Mr Kufuna: Mr Chairperson, Programme 5030, Activity 123 will cater for all stakeholders in the country under decentralisation governance. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr L. J. Ngoma: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 5013, Activity 018 –Publication and Dissemination of Guidelines on ADCs – K300,000,000, and Programme 5030, Activity 115 – Publication and Dissemination of Guidelines on ADCs – K300,000,000.  We have the same activity in two programmes. Can the hon. Minister clarify his response? Why should we have such a scenario?

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Kufuna: Thank you Mr Chairperson, …

The Deputy Chairperson: Just hold on for a minute.

When hon. Members on the left are raising points, it is important for the Executive to listen attentively so that you do not take long to answer.

You may proceed.

Mr Kufuna: … the first budget is for the development of guidelines while the second is for dissemination of guidelines.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Laughter

Mr Livune: Question!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5030, …

Mr Namulambe: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson!

Professor Lungwangwa: … Activity 102 – Draft Bills on Reviewed Legislation – K3,000,000,000, …

Mr Namulambe: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

Mrs E. Banda: Sit down the Chairperson has not allowed it!

Professor Lungwangwa: … the amount for this particular activity …

Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

I will not take points of order. This tendency of debating through points of order should be discouraged. I will, henceforth, not allow points of order.

You may continue, please.

Professor Lungwangwa: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Before I was interrupted, I was seeking clarification on Programme 5030, Activity 102 – Draft Bills on Reviewed Legislation – K3,000,000,000, whose amount has risen from K145,000,000, last year, to K3,000,000,000, this year. Can the hon. Minister explain such a colossal rise in this particular activity?

The Deputy Chairperson: The Chairperson is very familiar with Standing Orders.

Mr Kufuna: Mr Chairperson, the activity involves the drafting of Bills for revised legislation. Most Bills will require changes to meet the needs of decentralisation, hence the increase.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on two programmes, Programme 5013 – Publicity, Activity 018 – Publication and Dissemination of Guidelines on ADCs – K300,000,000 as well as Programme 5030 – Policy and Planning (Planning and Budgeting Reforms), Activities 115 – Publication and Dissemination of Guidelines on ADCs – K300,000,000 respectively. 

Sir, when His Excellency the President of this country, Mr Michael Sata, came to sit in that chair, during the Official Opening of this Parliament, in his state of the national address, reminded hon. Ministers to answer questions correctly …

The Deputy Chairperson: Can you make your point in relation to the Head?

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, in answering the question from the hon. Member of Parliament, my dear brother and friend from Sinda, Hon. L. J. Ngoma, who sought to find out why there appears to be duplication in the same activity, the hon. Minister said, and I quote:

“Activity 018 – Publication and Dissemination of Guidelines on ADCs, Activity, and 115 – Publication and Dissemination of Guidelines on ADCs.”

Would this imply that we are reading different documents from his notes of qualification as we ask? As he answers he must be aware that Mr Sata is listening.

The Deputy Chairperson: The question is: Are you reading from different documents?

Interruptions

Hon. Government Members: It is the same document!

Mr Tembo: Mr Chairperson, Programme 5013 is under publicity while Programme 5030 is on policy and planning. There are two different programmes.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter{mospagebreak}

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

I hope the answer has been taken.

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Interruptions

Mr Ng’onga: Teti musumine!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! 

Ms Kalima: Mr Chairperson, as I ask, please, listen. Do not just read.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

There is only one Chairperson in here.

Ms Kalima: If it is very difficult, I seek, through you, Mr Chairperson, that the full Cabinet Minister answers.

Interruptions

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Ms Kalima: Mr Chairperson, …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

I think that guidance is necessary at this point. The ministers work as a team and there is delegation of responsibility. I do not think that it is incumbent upon hon. Members to tell hon. Ministers who should answer the question. All those answering questions have the mandate to do so on behalf of the ministry concerned.

You may continue, Ms Kalima.

Ms Kalima: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. When the questions are difficult the senior ones come in.

Interruptions

Ms Kalima: May I have clarification on Programme 5013, Activity 022 – Production of Radio and Television Programmes – K800,000,000. The allocation to this activity has been increased from K200,000,000 to K800,000,000. What has necessitated the increase? What exactly will be happening? What are these radio and television programmes that have called for this increase?

Mr Tembo: Mr Chairperson, under the Decentralisation Policy, there will be many activities. That is the reason there is that increase.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Siliya: Mr Chairperson, I have two questions. May I have clarification on two programmes, Programme 5013 – Publicity, Activity 018 – Publication and Dissemination of Guidelines on ADCs – K300,000,000, and Programme 5030 – Policy and Planning (Planning and Budgeting Reforms), Activities 115 – Publication and Dissemination of Guidelines on ADCs – K300,000,000. My question on this one is: Is this a problem of double budgeting? If so, I will be very happy that we make some progress and get an amendment or a better explanation. My second question is on Programme 5003 – Capacity Building. Could the hon. Minister compare and contrast Activity 050 – Develop Capacity Building Programme (5) – K2,100,000,000 and Activity 064 – Workshops, Seminars and Conferences – K120,000,000.

Mr Tembo: Mr Chairperson, for the first question, the answer is no. There is no duplication.

Thank you, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: What about the other question?

Interruptions

Hon. Government Members: No page!

Mr Tembo: Mr Chairperson, let her repeat the question because she did not give the page number.

Ms Kalima: Question! Just answer!

Mr Tembo: Yes, the page.

The Deputy Chairperson: Ms Siliya, may you repeat your second question?

Mr Nkombo: Mr Sata is listening!

Laughter

Ms Siliya: Mr Chairperson, Programme 5003, Activity 050 – Develop Capacity Building Programme (5) – K2,100,000,000, and Activity 064 – Workshops, Seminars and Conferences – K120,000,000. I just wanted the hon. Minister to compare and contrast Activities 050 and 064.

Interruptions

Hon. Opposition Members: Simple! Compare and contrast.

Mr Tembo: Mr Chairperson, Programme 5003, Activity 050 is there to facilitate the development of a capacity building programme aimed at developing human and institutional capacity in the local authorities. 

Interruptions

Hon. Member: What about the other one?

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Opposition Members called for a division.

Question that Vote 20/09-Loans and Investments – Local Government and Housing – Decentralisation Secretariat – K22,184,293,699 stand part of the Estimates put and the House voted.

Ayes – (64)

Mr C. R. Banda
Mr. E. Banda
Mrs N. Banda
Mr Bwalya
Mr Chabala
Colonel Chanda
Mr Chansa
Mr Chenda
Mr Chikwanda
Mr Chilangwa
Mr Chisala
Mr Chitotela
Mr S. Chungu
Mrs Kabanshi
Mr Kabimba
Mr Kalaba
Mr Kampyongo
Kansembe
Ms Kapata
Mr Kapaya
Mr Kapeya
Dr Kasonde
Dr Katema 
Mrs Kawandami
Mrs Kazunga
Mr Kosamu
Mr Kufuna
Ms Limata
Dr E. Lungu
Mr E. C. Lungu
Professor Luo
Mrs Masebo
Mr Masumba
Mr Matafwali
Mr Mbulu
Mr Mpundu
Mr Mubukwanu
Mr Muchima
Mr Mukanga
Mr Mumba
Mr Mushanga
Mr Musukwa
Mr B. Mutale
Dr Mwali
Mr Mwaliteta
Mr Mwamba
Mr Mwango
Mr Mwenya
Mr Mwewa
Mr Mwila
Mr P. Ngoma
Mr D. Phiri
Mr Sakeni
Dr Scott
Mr Sichone
Mr Sichula
Mr Sikazwe
Dr Simbyakula
Mr Simuusa
Mr Taima
Mr Tembo
Professor Willombe
Mr Zimba
Mr Zulu

Noes – (34)

Mr I. Banda
Mr Belemu
Mr Chingimbu
Mr Chishiba
Mr Chituwo
Mrs A. Chungu
Mr Hamusonde
Ms Imenda
Dr Kaingu
Ms Kalima
Dr Kazonga
Mr Livune
Ms Lubezhi
Professor Lungwangwa
Mrs Mazoka
Mr Mbulakulima
Mr Mooya
Mr Mufalali
Mr Mulomba
Mr Mulusa
Dr Musokotwane
Mr Mutati
Mr Mutelo
Mr M. B. Mwale
Mr Mwanza
Mr Mwiimbu
Mr Namulambe
Mr L. Ngoma
Mr Nkombo
Mr Sianga
Mr Sililo
Ms Siliya
Mr Simbao
Mr L. Zimba

Abstentions – (01)

Question accordingly agreed to.

Vote 20/09, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 25/01 – (Local Government Service Commission – Headquarters – K4,500,000,000).

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, Unit 03, Programme 3001, Activity 046 – Review of Job Descriptions – K79,000,000. Whose job descriptions are going to be reviewed under this activity? Is it for council officials or commission officers? Secondly, I seek clarification on Unit 04, Programme 3103, Activity 006 – Human Resource Placements – Provincial Tours – K630,000,000. What is the relationship between human resource placements and provincial tours, which is costing K630 million?

Mr Tembo: Mr Chairperson, the review of job descriptions is for council officials. As for the hon. Member’s second question, that allocation is for the assessment of needs under human resources.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mufalali (Senanga): Mr Chairperson, Programme 3103, Activity 001 – Staff Performance Assessment – K538,000,000. Which staff are we talking about here?

Mr Tembo:  Mr Chairperson, this is various categories of staff in the councils.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mulusa: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3103, Activity 001 – Staff Assessment – K538,000,000. What exactly is involved in the staff assessment to cost such a colossal amount of money?

Mr Tembo: Mr Chairperson, we are trying to intensify scrutiny of officials to make them more efficient.

I thank you, Sir.

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu:  Mr Chairperson, I have just heard the hon. Deputy Minister saying that they are trying. Are they budgeting for them to start trying?

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Can the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing be specific?

Mr Tembo: Mr Chairperson, there has been a complaint from the general public that the calibre of staff in the Ministry is below a par. So, that is the reason we came up with this initiative to intensify and interview officers in the local authorities. We are not trying.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3103, Activity 001 – Staff Performance – K538,000,000. I want the hon. Minister to assist me to know which level of staff they are appraising because councils have staff ranging from office orderly to the town clerk. I would like him to tell me, in no uncertain terms, whether this is also a pilot project or it will cover the entire country. If it will cover the entire country, can he confirm if this money is enough?

Mr Tembo: Mr Chairperson, this is the role of the Local Government Service Commission. So, according to the budget ceilings, this is what we have been given.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mulusa: Mr Chairperson, it is not my intention to delay the proceedings. May I have clarification on Programme 3103, Activity 001 – Staff Assessment – K538,000,000. I did confirm with the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing, previously, that there was no staff assessment management system in the Ministry of Local Government and Housing. The hon. Deputy Minister has just told us that they are trying to intensify. You cannot intensify something that does not exist. When did this programme start which they are now trying to intensify because a few months ago, I was told it was not there?

Interruptions

Mr Mulusa: Mulekwata umuchinshi.

Mr Tembo: Mr Chairperson, as I indicated earlier, there were some general complaints from the public that we are not very effective enough in terms of capacity. Now, this is a new programme under the Local Government Service Commission.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Mr Livune: Mr Chairperson, I seek your protection. There is so much noise in the House. 

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, order! 

Mr Livune: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Page 465. I notice that important functions such as Labour Day celebrations, Secretaries Day and Women’s Day are missing. I want to find out if the commission does not recognise them. Among all these programmes that have been provided for, other very important activities are missing. May I be enlightened as to the reason why?

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Tembo: That is not a function of the Local Government Service Commission.

Thank you, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Mr Nkombo, you wanted to make a point, I said I would come back to you.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3103, Activity 001 –Staff Performance Assessment – K538,000,000. This is a follow up to the question I asked earlier in pursuit for consistency from the PF. The hon. Minister’s response to my earlier question was that this amount is what was requested. 

Mr Mpundu: Page.

Mr Nkombo: It is page 465. By the way, there is only one page under this particular Vote for the commission unless you are not following.

Hon. Member: Through the Chair.

Mr Nkombo: He said that this is what they were given. My assumption is that this is what they got from the function office. In an earlier response, when the hon. Member of Parliament for Senga Hill asked him about roads, the same hon. Minister from Nyimba indicated that this is what was provided for at the headquarters. Now, how does the PF formulate the Budget? Is it top-down or down-top. Who starts the process? In my …

Interjection

Mr Nkombo: Sir, Uncle Scott …

Laughter

Hon. Government Member: What is your question?

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The hon. Member is coming to the point. 

Hon. Nkombo, you may continue.

Mr Nkombo: Sir, in my policy debate, when hon. Chikwanda presented the Budget, I reminded the PF that budgeting is not an activity, it is a process. What model do you use to Budget? Do you start from the headquarters or from the bottom? That is what I wanted to ask because he has given two different answers under the same Head.

Mr Tembo: To answer that simple question, I would like to say that our Budget is from bottom to top. However, we will operate according to the ceiling that we have been given. It is an obvious case that you have to cut the dress according to the size of the material. 

Thank you, Sir.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Vote 25/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 29/01 – (Ministry of Local Government and Housing – Human Resource and Administration – K11,299,182,423).

Mr V. Mwale (Chipangali): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5012, Activity 010 – Care and Support – Nil. I assume this is support for people living with HIV. There was K120,000,000this year and I would like to think that this support is supposed to be continuous. I would like to find out why there is no allocation to care and support in the 2013 Budget.

Mr Tembo: Mr Chairperson, Programme 5012, Activity 010 – Care and Support – Nil. The money for this activity has been included under Programme 5003, Activity 001 – Short Term Training – K260,000,000. This money will also be used for sensitisation programmes on HIV in work places.

I thank you, Sir.

Professor Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Mr Chairperson, Programme 5001, Activity 006 – Support to the Minister’s Office – K520,000,000. Last year, the amount for this activity was K164,760,340 and the proposal for next year is K520,000,000. This is an increase of K355,239,660. May I know why there has been such a big increase in the support to the hon. Minister’s office. What activities have warranted such a big increase?

Mr Tembo: Mr Chairperson, this provision is required to procure office materials and services for the office of the hon. Minister and the hon. Deputy Ministers. The allocation has increased because of the high cost of goods and services.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chishiba (Kafulafuta): Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 5000, Activity 005 – Other Emoluments – K281,527,849. This amount is double what was allocated last year. May I know the reason why.

Mr Tembo: Mr Chairperson, Programme 5000, Activity 005 – Other Emoluments – K281,527,849. This amount is needed to facilitate the payment of leave days, terminal benefits, and long service bonus to qualified staff. The amount has been increased due to the increased number of qualified staff. Despite the increase, the amount is not double  this year’s allocation.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mufalali (Senanga): Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 5034, Activity 014 – Transfer of closed files to record centre – K97,000,000. Can the hon. Minister explain why K97,000,000 should be used for moving closed files, and how far is this records centre.

Mr Tembo: Mr Chairperson, this amount is meant for the renovation of the records centre as well as to provide for stationery and logistics for the movement of files to the  centre. The increase is due to the renovations which will be undertaken of the records centre.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mbulakulima (Chembe): Mr Chairperson, Programme 5001, Activity 019 – Transport Management – K822,000,000. Where there is transport management, there should be a corresponding entry for insurance.

Mr Chairperson, Programme 5001, Activity 048 – Insurance – Nil. What will happen to the workers and third parties should there be an accident since there is no allocation for insurance?

Mr Tembo: Mr Chairperson, Programme 5001, Activity 019 – Transport Management – K822,000,000, is meant to cater for the purchase of institutional vehicles to be used for training and student tours. The increase is meant for purchasing more motor vehicles to be use for field training as we implement the Decentralisation Policy. Under the same programme, there is no allocation for insurance because most of the vehicles have been sold. The owners of the vehicles will take the responsibility of insuring them.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, I think we have a serious problem. I need a clear answer to the question by the hon. Member for Senanga Central, Mr Mufalali on Programme 5034, Activity 014 – Transfer of closed files to records centre – K97,000,000. The response was that the funds were going to be used for renovations to the building where the files will be taken. So, I want to understand how transfer can now mean renovation. We need a clear answer because we are getting confused.

Mr Tembo: Mr Chairperson, the renovations to the centre will still take place together with the transfer of the new files because of the new technology. This is the reason the cost has  increased.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson may we know where the centre they are going to rehabilitate is situated.

Mr Tembo: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for that simple question. It is at the ministry.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 29/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 29/03 – (Ministry of Local Government and Housing – Chalimbana Local Government Training School – K4,560,846,372).

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5001. Activity 004 – Staff Welfare – K100,100,100. You may recall that, in all activities of Government institutions, staff welfare was not being provided for. What exceptional circumstances caused us to provide for staff welfare for Chalimbana College when we were advised that staff welfare will be provided for under a bank that will be established by the Government? 

Mrs Kabanshi: Mr Chairperson, the allocation to Activity 004 is for staff recreation. We have a got a football team that needs to buy jerseys and refreshments as it engages in sports. 

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 29/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

VOTE 29/04 – (Ministry of Local Government and Housing – Physical Planning and Housing Department – K3,564,751,750 ).

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment under Unit 01: Administration, Programme 5000: Personal Emoluments, by the deletion of Programme Total K1,062,835,602 and the substitution therefor of K1,062,835,601.

Amendment agreed to. 

Vote amended accordingly.

Mr Livune: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5009, Activity 028 – Budget Preparation – K115,000,000. I find it difficult to consummate … 

Laughter 

Mr Livune: … how the work for one page can consume K115 million.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Tembo: Mr Chairperson, this allocation is meant to facilitate the preparation of departmental work plans and the annual budget, which takes a lot of thinking and planning.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Namulambe: May I have clarification on Programme 5009, Activity 028 – Budget Preparation K115,000,000. There are core issues which are less-funded … 

The Deputy Chairperson: Go straight to the point, please.

Mr Namulambe: Sir, the simple question to which we seek a proper answer is: Why does this one-page document require this amount of money? What is the expenditure for because there are some core issues which are less funded?

Mr Tembo: Mr Chairperson, this activity is for all the provinces. That is the reason there is that amount.

Vote 19/04, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates

(Debate Adjourned)

_____________

HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress Reported)

__________

The House adjourned at 1955 hours until 0900 hours on Friday 23rd November, 2012.

__________