Tuesday, 30th October, 2018

Tuesday, 30^th October, 2018

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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RULING BY MR SPEAKER

POINT OF ORDER RAISED BY MR J. J. MWIIMBU, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR MONZE CENTRAL AND LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION, ON WEDNESDAY, 10^TH OCTOBER, 2018, ALLEGING THAT THE TIMES OF ZAMBIA NEWSPAPER WAS PUBLISHING SOME ARTICLES IN CHINESE AND THEREFORE, DISCRIMINATING AGAINST ZAMBIANS

Hon. Members, I have a ruling to render. The ruling arises from a point of order which was raised by Hon. J. J. Mwiimbu, Member of Parliament for Monze Central and Leader of Opposition, on Wednesday, 10^th October, 2018.

Hon. Members will recall that on Wednesday, 10^th October, 2018, when the House was considering Question for Oral Answer No. 59, Hon. L. Fungulwe, Member of Parliament for Lufwanyama, was asking a supplementary question, Hon. J. J. Mwiimbu, Member of Parliament for Monze Central and Leader of the Opposition, raised the following point of order:

“Mr Speaker, I rise on a point of order pursuant to Article 23 of the Constitution of Zambia which deals with the issue of discrimination. It is trite law that in this country, by virtue of the Constitution and the provision I have quoted, the Government of the Republic of Zambia, by itself or through its agencies, should not be discriminating against anyone who is a Zambian or resident in Zambia. I have noted that the Times of Zambia newspaper, which is an authority publicly funded by the taxpayer, has been discriminating against Zambians and the majority of Zambian tribes in this country.

“Mr Speaker, I have a copy of the Times of Zambia published on Tuesday, 9^th October, 2018, Edition No. 18197. On page 2 of this publication, there is an interpretation, I presume, by the Times of Zambia, in an article that appeared on the first page of the paper and is replicated on the second page. The headline of the article is: ‘SADC Moots DRC Peace.’ This article is in Chinese. There has been no such article in Bemba, Tonga, Lozi, Lunda or in any other language of the people who reside in Zambia. We are aware that the official language in this country is English. Why is the Government finding it proper and prudent, in its wisdom, to start interpreting articles appearing in newspapers into Chinese?

“Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting in order to remain quiet and not inform us that Chinese is now an official language in this country and that we can start speaking Chinese? Is she in order to discriminate against me and other people in this country in preference to Chinese? Is she in order to abrogate the Constitution of Zambia?”

In my immediate response, I reserved my ruling to enable me to investigate the matter in order to render a measured ruling. I have since studied the matter and now proceed to render my ruling.

Hon. Members, the point of order raised the following issues:

whether Chinese had become one of Zambia’s official languages since the Times of Zambia newspaper had published an article in Chinese; and

alleged discrimination against the people of Zambia by the Times of Zambia newspaper’s publication of an article in Chinese when there has been no such publication in any local language of Zambians, contrary to Article 23 of the Constitution.

Hon. Members, I wish to confirm from the outset that the Times of Zambia did, in fact, publish an article entitled “SADC Moots DRC Peace” in its Edition No. 18197 dated 9^th October, 2018. This article was the headline on the front page and was repeated in Chinese on the second page of the newspaper. Having given the background, let me now address the issues raised in the point of order, which include the following:

whether Chinese had become one of Zambia’s official languages since the Times of Zambia newspaper had published an article in Chinese.

Hon. Members, investigations by my office revealed that the Times of Zambia newspaper is published by Times Printpak Zambia Limited, which is wholly owned by the Government through the Industrial Development Corporation (IDC) and, therefore, publicly funded. In this regard, the newspaper is State-owned and superintended by the Ministry of Information and Broadcasting.

Hon. Members, indeed, as indicated by Hon. Mwiimbu, the official language of Zambia is English, and this is provided for in Article 258(1) of the Constitution of Zambia which states as follows:

“The official language of Zambia is English.”

Hon. Members, this constitutional provision confirms that English is the official language of Zambia. Therefore, in light of this constitutional provision, I direct the hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting to render a ministerial statement on Tuesday, 6^th November, 2018 outlining the editorial policy of the Times of Zambia newspaper on the use of languages other than English. The second issue is as follows:

alleged discrimination against the people of Zambia, by the Times of Zambia newspaper’s publication of an article in Chinese when there has been no such publication in any local language of the Zambians, contrary to Article 23 of the Constitution

Hon. Members, the point of order alleged that by publishing the article in Chinese and not the other Zambian languages, the Times of Zambia newspaper was discriminating against Zambians in contravention of Article 23 of the Constitution. Article 23(2) of the Constitution, provide as follows:

“… a person shall not be treated in a discriminatory manner by any person acting by virtue of any written law or in the performance of any public office or any public authority.”

Article 28 goes on to provide that:

“… if any person alleges that any of the provisions of Articles 11 to 26 inclusive has been, is being or is likely to be contravened in relation to him, then, without prejudice to any other action with respect to the same matter which is lawfully available, that person may apply for redress to the High Court …”

From the foregoing provisions, it is self evident that the Constitution does not permit discrimination on any basis. It is further clear from Article 28(1), that any person who feels that his or her fundamental rights or freedoms have been infringed or are likely to be infringed upon, may seek legal redress in the High Court.

Further, hon. Members, I have on numerous occasions guided the House that pursuant to the doctrine of separation of powers, the National Assembly cannot intervene in matters falling under the purview or jurisdiction of the judicial branch of Government. As a matter of fact, I discussed this matter at great length in a ruling on a point of order by Mr G. G. Nkombo, MP, which is reflected in the Parliamentary Debates of the First Session of the Eleventh National Assembly, recorded between of 21^st February and 28^th March, 2012, at pages 260-262, which raised the issue of the alleged breach of fundamental rights and freedoms of Zambian citizens by the Government allegedly denying the people the right to express their views in solidarity with the Royal Highness in the Southern Province. In that ruling, I also explained the import of Article 28 of the Constitution, which provides for the enforcement of the protective provisions of the Constitution. I pointed out that the Legislature was not the appropriate arm of Government to deal with the matters raised in the point of order. This is what I said:

“The Legislature is not the suitable branch of Government to adjudicate upon and make pronouncements on the sundry and specific issues brought to my attention by the hon. Member for Mazabuka Central Parliamentary Constituency in his detailed point of order.”

Furthermore, I similarly guided in a point of order by Mr C. Mweetwa, MP, on Thursday, 14^th November, 2013, on whether the House was in order to allegedly play double standards by ruling on matters that border on interpretation of the law while referring some of such matters to the Judiciary. This ruling is found in the Parliamentary Debates of the First Meeting of the Third Session of the Eleventh National Assembly between 20^th September and 13^th December, 2013, at pages 1681-1685. In my ruling, I cited various examples of previous rulings which all pointed to the fact that the House had consistently conformed to the doctrine of separation of powers which prevents the House from delving into matters outside its purview or jurisdiction.

I went on to observe as follows:

“… it is my duty to interpret the Constitution only in so far as it relates to the functions and operations of the House. It is certainly not my duty to interpret and adjudicate upon general points of law or, indeed, other technical legalities of interpretations. It is, of course, also not my duty to proffer or offer general legal counsel to hon. Members.”

Hon. Members, from the foregoing, it is crystal clear that the Speaker does not, and cannot intervene in any matter that falls within the purview or jurisdiction of the judicial branch of Government.

I thank you.

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STATEMENT BY THE VICE-PRESIDENT

ALLEGED MISUSE AND MISAPPLICATION OF THE SOCIAL CASH TRANSFER SCHEME FUNDS

The Vice-President (Mrs Wina): Mr Speaker, before I give my statement to the House, allow me to pay a special tribute to one of Zambia’s political giants, Mrs Chibesa Kankasa who passed away in a South African hospital.

Mr Speaker, Mrs Kankasa was a courageous politician who crossed the boundaries of ethnicity and tribe, both in her personal life and in politics.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, Mrs Kankasa was not only a political activist but also an embodiment of women’s struggle for the equality of opportunities. The country has lost a politician of substance. May her soul rest in eternal peace.

Mr Speaker, the statement is based on the alleged misuse and misapplication of the Social Cash Transfer Scheme’s funds by some Government officers in the Ministry of Community Development and Social Welfare.

Mr Speaker, the Social Cash Transfer Scheme under the pro-poor Patriotic Front (PF) Government in Zambia constitutes programming which directly responds to the objective of the Social Protection Chapter of the Seventh National Development Plan (7NDP) under the poverty and vulnerability pillar which is to reduce extreme poverty in incapacitated households through welfare support.

Sir, the scheme is a non-contributory grant given to households classified as incapacitated and vulnerable. The aim of the transfer is to reduce extreme poverty and the inter-generational transfer of poverty.

Mr Speaker, the Social Cash Transfer Scheme is the country’s major social safety-net programme and is targeting to reach out to 700,000 household beneficiaries by December, 2018. The programme was initiated in 2006 in Kalomo with 169 beneficiary households. From 2011 when the PF took over the Government, the beneficiary households have risen from 32,643 in 2011 to 574,663 in 2017. This was due to the scaling-up of the programme from nineteen districts to all the 109 districts in Zambia, especially in rural areas.

Mr Speaker, currently, the Social Cash Transfer Scheme is governed by a joint financing agreement which is supported by the Government together with its co-operating partners. The co-operating partners are the United Kingdom (UK) through the Department for International Development (DfID), Sweden, Ireland, Finland and the United Nation (UN) agencies, namely International Labour Organisation (ILO), United Nations International Children's Emergency Fund (UNICEF) and the World Food Programme (WFP). The Government of the Republic of Zambia provides 70 per cent of the funding for the social cash transfers while its co-operating partners provide 30 per cent. The last remittance of the funds under the Social Cash Transfer Scheme to the beneficiaries was for the January/February cycle which was paid in June 2018.

Sir, at present, the programme is using three payment service providers, namely the Zambia National Commercial Bank (Zanaco), Zambia Postal Services Corporation Zampost and pay point managers (PPM). Zanaco is expected to cover the Eastern Province, Lusaka Province and Central Province while Zampost covered Luapula Province, the Western Province, Muchinga Province, the Northern Province and North-Western Province, and two districts on the Copperbelt Province, namely Mpongwe and Lufwanyama. The third payment service providers known as PPMs are civil servants, mostly, teachers or nurses who live in or near the beneficiary households in a community. These PPMs presently cover the Eastern Province, Central Province and the Southern Province including the remaining districts of the Copperbelt Province.

Mr Speaker, towards the end of 2017, following complaints from beneficiaries and irregularities highlighted through the internal audit reports from the ministry about the implementation of the social cash transfers, a team of auditors from the Office of the Controller of Internal Audit was constituted to carry out a countrywide audit of the programme. Furthermore, in January 2018, the ministry received another team of auditors from the Office of the Auditor-General to carry out their regular annual audits. The final 2017 Auditor-General’s Report has since been released. I believe that every hon. Member of Parliament has a copy of the report.

Mr Speaker, between the months of March and April 2018, officials from the Ministry of Community Development and Social Welfare, Zampost officials and its co-operating partners conducted a few spot-check visits to selected districts after complaints were received from the beneficiaries in the communities in which Zampost was providing social cash transfer payment services. It was during these spot-checks that the complaints of the beneficiaries were verified.

Sir, in order to further address the issues surrounding the implementation of the Social Cash Transfer Scheme, a number of meetings were held at Cabinet Office on the 6^th, 13^th, and 14^th of June, 2018.

Mr Speaker, on 2^nd August, 2018, the contract between the Ministry of Community Development and Social Welfare and Zampost was prematurely terminated due to a breach of the contractual obligations. However, on 8^th August, 2018, a week later, the decision to terminate the contract was rescinded to allow for further investigations. Resulting from these events, the release of funds to pay the Social Cash Transfer Scheme beneficiaries through Zampost was withheld by the co-operating partners awaiting the outcome of the Auditor-General’s Report, the forensic audit and other investigations.

Sir, following this decision to withhold funds, a meeting was held on 5^th September, 2018 at Cabinet Office with the co-operating partners. During this meeting, the Government assured the co-operating partners that it was doing everything possible to safeguard the public resources. The main issue with the co-operating partners was the release of the 2017 audit reports on funds meant for the Social Cash Transfer Scheme beneficiaries as agreed to in the joint financing agreement.

Mr Speaker, the actions taken by the Government to date are as follows:

on 20^th September 2018, the top management of Zampost was suspended by the board to pave way for the forensic audit;

the Office of the Auditor-General has initiated a forensic audit of the Social Cash Transfers Scheme. The office will provide the Government with a preliminary report after the visit to the Zampost Headquarters in Ndola;

officials from the Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC), the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) and Office of the President are still carrying out investigations;

the Ministry of Community Development and Social Welfare suspended eight key officers to allow for speedy administrative investigations;

the Administrative Investigations Committee instituted by the Ministry of Community Development and Social Welfare and the Public Service Management Division (PSMD) has since concluded its sittings with the following outcomes:

the Committee sat for seventeen days and interviewed a total of fifty-six officers, among them two Permanent Secretaries (PSs), six directors and three former directors as well as provincial and district social welfare officers;

it was generally observed that most of the issues that caused the unsuccessful implementation of the contract between Zampost and the Ministry of Community Development and Social Welfare were mainly due to poor human interaction and general disregard for laid down Government procedures.

it was also observed that Zampost failed to adhere to the provisions of the contract signed with the Ministry of Community Development and Social Welfare on 21^st August, 2017, such as the failure to submit reports and returns, failure to implement an electronic payment system and failure to conduct entrepreneurship training;

the Ministry of Community Development and Social Welfare has since suspended all payments to the Social Cash Transfer Scheme beneficiaries through ZAMPOST. For the period covering the investigations, the Ministry of Community Development and Social Welfare will pay beneficiaries through the PPMs; and

the Ministry of Finance will continue to provide funds to pay the beneficiaries according to the 2018 Social Cash Transfer Scheme Budget.

Mr Speaker, in addition to the above, the Ministry of Community Development and Social Welfare in close collaboration with the Smart Zambia Institute is exploring a more comprehensive, cost effective, transparent and financially secure system to track Social Cash Transfer Scheme payments to beneficiaries across the country. The development of a good payment tracking system will bring back public confidence and support from the co-operating partners to the Social Cash Transfer Scheme.

Sir, regarding the issue of how the funds from the DfID were used, I wish to state that the £2,599,049.00 received from DfID was a part of the funds used for the payment of the Social Cash Transfer Scheme beneficiaries in the Eastern Province, Lusaka Province, Central Province, Southern Province and Copperbelt Province for the September/October cycle, while £2,762,196.68 has since been paid back to the DfID.

Mr Speaker, the Government of the Republic of Zambia deeply regrets the alleged malpractices in the administration of the Social Cash Transfer Scheme funds meant for the vulnerable people in Zambia. I wish to assure the general public, co-operating partners and other stakeholders through the House, that appropriate action will be taken against whosoever will be found wanting.

Sir, finally, on behalf of the PF Government, led by His Excellency Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, the President of the Republic of Zambia –

Mr Livune: Question!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kapata: President of the Republic of Zambia!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, on behalf of the PF Government, led by His Excellency Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, the President of the Republic of Zambia ...

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kapata interjected.

The Vice-President: ... and, indeed, on my own behalf, I would like to reiterate our commitment to ensuring the success of the social protection programmes.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the statement given by Her Honour the Vice-President.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, what immediate measures has Her Honour the Vice-President put in place to alleviate the suffering of the poorest of the poor in Zambia who have been affected by the misappropriation of the Social Cash Transfer Scheme funds, taking into account that since January, our people in most constituencies have not received any Social Cash Transfer funds to alleviate the suffering they are undergoing?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the disadvantages that our people have gone through over the past few months are of great concern to the Government as well. The Ministry of Finance has disbursed some money which is not adequate to cover the whole country. This is why we are still waiting for another disbursement which, I hope, will be soon so that we make these funds available to our people.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Miyanda (Mapatizya): Mr Speaker, from January to about August, this year, our people had nothing. So, I would like to find out where the money was when we needed to give it out to the people. The money was nowhere near the people. I might not have heard what was said properly. Where was the money all that time that it was needed?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the statement was very clear on where the about £2.7 million from the British Government was. It was in an account in the bank, together with other funds from the Zambian Government. After noticing the challenges in the distribution or disbursement of the funds through Zampost, the ministry stopped the disbursement of the funds until an audit of how this money was being distributed was taken. This is why part of the money from the British Government found itself in the bank. From June, this year, the Ministry of Community Development and Social Welfare decided that the money would not be given out until the situation had been investigated.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Dr Chibanda (Mufulira): Mr Speaker, Her Honour the Vice-President has ably said that the Government will continue to disburse the money which was meant to be disbursed in 2018. Is she in a position to tell the nation, through this House, how the Government will cover up for the gap that has been created owing to the withholding of the money by the co-operating partners?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, some co-operating partners have already expressed the desire to continue with the programme. So, we believe that the gap that might have been created will be filled by funds from both the Zambian Government and the co-operating partners.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Speaker: Your Honour the Vice-President, I understood the hon. Member for Mufulira as having been inquiring about the gap that arose after the suspension of the disbursements of funds. How is that period going to be covered? As we continue with these questions, you may want to come back to that issue.

Mr Jere (Livingstone): Mr Speaker, Her Honour the Vice-President stated that the Government of the Republic of Zambia contributes 70 per cent and the co-operating partners, 30 per cent to the funding of the Social Cash Transfer Scheme. I would like to find out whether the Government has any intentions to engage international auditors so as to regain the co-operating partners’ confidence bearing in mind that they have withheld their 30 per cent contribution.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, we have competent auditors in this country …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: … who can undertake investigations or audit queries of this type. We do not need any outside auditing companies to come and do it for us.

Mr Speaker, as regards the question of filling the gap, it will be done by the Zambian Government. We have started paying out the January/February funds to the beneficiaries. This will continue until we are up-to-date with the disbursement of the funds to all the vulnerable people in Zambia.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Ms Mwashingwele: Mr Speaker, allow me first to also pass my condolences to the Kankasa family.

Mr Speaker, I wish to thank Her Honour the Vice-President for that detailed report. However, I would like to find out why about £2.7 million was not disbursed to the people that deserved to receive the money in good time until it reached a point where the funds had to be recalled by the donors.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the statement explained everything. When the funds are received from the co-operating partners, we do not immediately disburse the money to the vulnerable groups. We sometimes wait until we get further funding through the Ministry of Finance in order for us to cover a wider area. Otherwise, if the people from other districts hear that you disbursed part of the funds to only one district, they will definitely be up in arms. So, if we mobilise enough resources to cover the whole country for the month of June, we go ahead and disburse the funds. This is what happens. This is why that money was still in the account.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): (The microphone malfunctioned).

Mr Speaker: You need to be on record. The system is being attended to. Therefore, in the meantime, I will move on to those who are able to engage. The hon. Member for Nkeyema may take the Floor. I will come back to the hon. Member for Kalabo Central.

Mr Mbangweta (Nkeyema): Mr Speaker, Her Honour the Vice-President stated that the reason the Social Cash Transfer Scheme was introduced was to reduce extreme poverty. She also said that part of the reason this system failed includes the general disregard of the approved processes and procedures. The Government has decided to keep the board which it allowed to suspend the management of Zampost. I would like to find out whether there is a special reason the Government has decided to keep a board in place which has caused so much havoc for the poor people of this country.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, whatever happened involving Zampost did not go on for a very long time. There was a different board at that time. From January this year or thereabouts, there has been a new board. The investigations will ascertain why some decisions were taken with or without the board’s approval. These are the issues that the Auditor-General’s Office and other investigative wings are looking into.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Mr Speaker, I would like to thank Her Honour the Vice-President for that statement. The termination of the agreement with Zampost was reversed meaning that the institution was reengaged by the Government. Following this serious financial …

‘Mr Speaker: Order, order on the left.

Continue, hon. Member for Kalabo Central.

Mr Miyutu: … irregularity which has occurred and the termination of the agreement with Zampost having been reversed, what then will follow since the Government is still in favour of running the Social Cash Transfer Scheme? Who is going to take up the job of giving out money to the affected people in the affected provinces?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the disbursement of the funds will be undertaken by the PPMs appointed by the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services itself, or through other agencies that the ministry has chosen like Zanaco and which other one?

Ms Chalikosa: Zampost.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the participation of Zampost has not been terminated, but simply put on hold so that it does not participate in the current disbursement of funds. Instead, the PPMs as well as staff from the ministry itself have been appointed to undertake the exercise.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lihefu (Manyinga): Mr Speaker, …

Mr Lusambo: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: I will not allow any points of order during this session. I want to process this smoothly.

Hon. Member for Manyinga, please, continue.

Mr Lihefu: Mr Speaker, the Social Cash Transfer Scheme has been helping people especially those in rural constituencies. As the situation stands, does our Government have the capacity to continue with this exercise without the participation of our co-operating partners by funding the programme?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I want to make it clear that the Social Cash Transfer Scheme is a Government programme.

Mr Lubinda: Yes!

The Vice-President: As I earlier indicated in my statement, the Zambian Government contributes 70 per cent to while the co-operating partners provide 30 per cent funding. So, the Government can work hard to even reach 100 per cent …

Ms Chalikosa: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: ... when funds are available. This is what we are striving to achieve. However, there are some co-operating partners that have shown interest to continue supporting the Government to ensure that the vulnerable people in our country can be supported.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Livune (Katombola): Mr Speaker, this sad development at the ministry caused the dismissal of the hon. Minister. I sympathise with the hon. Minister for she could have been punished for a sin she did not commit. My question is: What disciplinary action has the Government taken on the Permanent Secretary who must be aware of the whereabouts of any funds at any given time?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, we do realise that the Permanent Secretary (PS) in a ministry is the controlling officer. The investigations are looking at whether the controlling officers misled the ministry or had a role to play in what happened although Zampost was working independently. So, investigations about what actually happened are being carried. I think in the statement I indicated that there was a lack of communication between Zampost and the ministry. I also talked about many other issues that are being looked into that contributed to the failure to disburse the necessary funds to our people.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nanjuwa (Mumbwa): Mr Speaker, I have heard Her Honour the Vice-President mention that Zampost flouted certain contractual obligations. I want to find out, among those contractual obligations, are there any actual funds that are suspected to have been misappropriated by Zampost?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the word appropriation outside our discussion here. The issue here is the missapplication of funds. For example, Zampost diverted a total sum of K15,206,709 meant for beneficiaries towards their internal administrative expenditure for the procurement of motor vehicles. This is an activity which the ministry deemed a violation of the contract. This misapplication of funds occurred despite Zampost being paid its full commission by the ministry. This has created a gap as these funds remain undisbursed to the beneficiaries. Perhaps, this answers the questions regarding some of the breaches that were made by Zampost.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muchima (Ikeleng’i): Mr Speaker, I am getting confused ...

Mr Mwiimbu: Yes!

Mr Muchima: … with the answers being given by Her Honour ...

Mr Kampyongo: Question!

Mr Muchima: ... the Vice-President who was on the Floor here another time accosting those who said the money had been misapplied. She said people were alarming the situation when the money was in a Zanaco account. The President even took action by firing the hon. Minister who was in that ministry. Why was the Government in a hurry to fire the hon. Minister when the investigations were not complete which has since led to Her Honour the Vice-President to start giving statements which are contradictory?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, my responses are not contradictory. I am explaining what actually happened and what the Government is doing to respond to this serious misapplication of resources. The implementation of the Social Cash Transfer Scheme is led by the Government of the Republic of Zambia. The other people just come in to support this Government initiative. The bulk of the funds for the scheme are from the Government of the Republic of Zambia. The money that was provided by the DfID was, indeed, meant for the scheme. However, it was still in the bank awaiting other resources so that the funding could be sufficient for distribution to our people in all the parts of Zambia where the programme is being implemented. So, there is no contradiction whatsoever as to why the money was there and not given to the people.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Machila (Magoye): Mr Speaker, Her Honour the Vice-President explained that some money could have been given to the poor people who needed it. However, because of the fear of the outcry that some people in certain areas would not get that money, the programme has been suspended. What is the Government’s rationale for inflicting pain on the people who should have benefitted from the money that was available?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the Government has started fulfilling its obligations by giving the beneficiaries the money which they deserve through the Social Cash Transfer Scheme. Already, payments for January and February 2018 have been given to the people. So, the programme has continued and we will continue mobilising more resources for it.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Chiyalika (Lufubu): Mr Speaker, I would like to thank Her Honour the Vice-President for that wonderful statement. However, on behalf of the people of Lufubu, I would like to find out whether Zampost will refund the Government the money it misapplied. What is the way forward?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the Government will only know what concrete actions to take after the investigations are concluded. Some officers may have been involved in criminal activities. That matter will be dealt with by the court or the police whereas others may be merely administrative which can be addressed by the ministry concerned. So, at the moment, we have not yet arrested or sent anyone to jail. We are still awaiting the report of the Auditor-General.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Ndalamei (Sikongo): Mr Speaker, taking into consideration that this is a serious issue, has the Government given the investigative wings a time frame within which to conclude the investigations?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the Government has not given the investigation wings a definite period because some of the investigations will be conducted in far-flung areas where Zampost was implementing the programme. So, the investigations will take a little while. However, we hope it will not be too long before an audit report is given to the Government on this particular matter.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Jamba (Mwembeshi): Mr Speaker, some people told the donors or funders that the Social Cash Transfer Scheme money nashiluba.

Mr Speaker: What does that mean?

Mr Jamba: Mr Speaker, meaning the money was lost, and a WhatsApp message was circulating that pungwa, the eagle, had gotten it. The whole country was actually brought into disrepute in view of the missing money. That alarmed the donors. Has the Government instituted investigations to find out who told the donors that the money was missing when, in fact, it was sitting somewhere? We need to know that person who is masquerading.

Interruptions

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, these are the consequences of the lack of patriotism. This was done to excite the donors, but they knew where the money was, how much they had contributed to the scheme and even held discussions with senior civil servants. So, everything was known. The situation was hyped by people who did not mean well for this country which did not help us. However, the ministry carried out internal audits because it realised that the beneficiaries in the districts were complaining of having not been receiving their benefits. So, the Government put in place interventions so that it could know where the money was and who was responsible for the misuse or misapplication. The competent investigative wings of the Government have been tasked to look into the whole situation. We will know when the results are ready.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: The last question will be from the hon. Member for Zambezi West.

Dr Kambwili: Aah! Inga ine?

Laughter

Princess Kucheka (Zambezi West): Mr Speaker, could Her Honour the Vice-President confirm if all the co-operating partners have withheld their funding to this very important programme.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the co-operating partners said that they will only disburse the money after receiving the final audit report. So, the current situation is that the money for the Social Cash Transfer Scheme that was being contributed by the co-operating partners is still being withheld.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

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QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

PROTESTS IN KAINDU CHIEFDOM

82. Mr Nanjuwa (Mumbwa) asked the Minister of Home Affairs:

whether the Government is aware that in or about September, 2018, the councillor for Kalwanyembe Ward and members of the Executive Board of the Kaindu Natural Resource Trust were abducted by protesting villagers in Kaindu Chiefdom in Mumbwa District;

if so, what the cause of the protests is;

what measures the Government is taking to restore law and order in the chiefdom; and

whether the arrest of the sixty-four fishermen on 17^th October, 2018, is linked to the protests.

The Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Kampyongo): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the House that the Government is aware of the abduction of the councillor for Kalwanyembe Ward in Kaindu Chiefdom in Mumbwa District.

Sir, the people in Kaindu Chiefdom protested the decision made by the Kaindu Natural Resources Trust to fence off the area reserved for fish breeding, a decision the area councillor supported. Most people in Kaindu Chiefdom did not welcome the decision because it was not in their economic interest. Thus, the area councillor was perceived as not being a good representative of the people in his ward.

Mr Speaker, law and order has been restored in the Kaindu Chiefdom. The Zambia Police Service is monitoring the situation to ensure that law and order prevails throughout Mumbwa District and the Kaindu Chiefdom, in particular.

Sir, yes, the arrested sixty-four fishermen were linked to the protest because they were fishing in the restricted area reserved for fish breeding. However, all the sixty-four were released after being warned and cautioned.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Nanjuwa: Mr Speaker, I am aware that a team from the Zambia Police Service, Department of National Parks and Wildlife and the Ministry of Fisheries and Livestock went to the area to arrest the suspects. Apart from that, there was a meeting which was called by the Permanent Secretary (PS) from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs pertaining to the same issue. I would like to know what caused the Ministry of Foreign Affairs to get involved in the issue.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, the police were acting on the complaint, which was lodged by the councillor and his team. Like the hon. Member has mentioned, the groups which had vested interests in the matter included the Ministry of Fisheries and Livestock and the Department of National Parks and Wildlife. So, when the incident happened, the people who were behind the confusion were rounded up by members of the public with the assistance of the Zambia Police Service. As the House may be aware, the councillor also has supporters within the community. I am sure the hon. Member of Parliament is aware that some members of the community did not support the action taken by some of the fishermen who abducted the councillor. It is these people who assisted some of the stakeholders, whom the hon. Member of Parliament talked about, to apprehend the suspects.

Mr Speaker, it is also worth mentioning that I am surprised that the hon. Member mentioned that the Ministry of Foreign Affairs was also involved in the exercise because we do not have that information on our records. However, what we know is that the Deputy Permanent Secretary for Central Province was dispatched to the area to see what was happening. It would be prudent for the hon. Member of Parliament to take keen interest in what is happening in that area so that he can be at the centre of resolving of the issues.

Sir, I know that the Permanent Secretary (PS) for Central Province will be going to the area to sit with various stakeholders in order to resolve the issues in the area. Therefore, it would be prudent that the hon. Member of Parliament, who is the representative of the people, gets to be part of the process of finding an amicable settlement because the matters at hand border on people’s feelings after being left out in terms of arriving at the decisions made by the traditional leadership and other stakeholders. Therefore, we need the hon. Member to get on board in order to support the Zambian Police Service to maintain peace in that area.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Lihefu (Manyinga): Mr Speaker, I am aware that when there are such protests, the Ministry of Home Affairs deploys police officers to such areas to contain the situation. Is the hon. Minister able to tell this august House how many police officers were deployed to Mumbwa?

Laughter

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, even though I appreciate the hon. Member’s question, I want to state that it is very difficult to put into context what really his question is trying to achieve. The work of the Zambia Police Service is to make sure that it intervenes where there is a breakdown in law and order. Accordingly, the Zambia Police Service officers whose jurisdiction is to look after Mumbwa District intervened.

Sir, I emphasised on the need for the hon. Member of Parliament to be part of the stakeholders involved in resolving the issues because that is the only way to have sustainable peace after the police officers play their part. I still want to emphasise that the hon. Member of Parliament should get involved in resolving the matter because the issues at hand affect the people he represents. The hon. Member’s people feel that their interests are being left out in the decisions which are being made by the traditional leadership. Similar issues are arising in many areas because when people settle in an area and, then, decisions are made which threaten their livelihood, sometimes, they might react.

Mr Speaker, like I mentioned earlier on, the PS and the Central Province administration will be in the area tomorrow. The hon. Member of Parliament should get to the area so that he can appreciate what his people need and also represent them in order for them to be part and parcel of the decisions which are being made in the area.

Mr Speaker, I thank you

CONSTRUCTION OF SAMFYA /MPANTA/KASOMA LUNGA ROAD

83. Mr Kasandwe (Bangweulu) (on behalf of Ms Kabanshi (Luapula)) asked the Minister of Housing and Infrastructure Development:

when the construction of the Samfya/Mpanta/Kasoma Lunga Road will commence;

what the estimated time frame for the completion of the project is; and

(c) what the cost of the project is.

The Minister of Housing and Infrastructure Development (Mr Chitotela): Mr Speaker, this question is being asked for the second time, because it was previously asked by the hon. Member of Parliament for Bangweulu.

Sir, the construction of the Samfya/Katanshya/Mpanta (D449/D450) Road will only commence upon the completion of the feasibility studies and detailed engineering designs, securing of funding for the project and procurement of a contractor to carry out the works. A consultant has been engaged to carry out the feasibility study in order to produce detailed engineering designs. The contract commenced on 19^th April, 2018 and is expected to be completed in February 2019.

Sir, the time frame for the construction works will be known once the designs are completed and the scope of works are established. Similarly, the total cost of the construction works will be known once the designs are completed.

Further, Mr Speaker, the consultant engaged to carry out the feasibility studies and detailed engineering designs for the 84 km Samfya/Katanshya/Mpanta Road is Messrs Lidwala Zambia Limited in association with BNC Consult Limited at a total cost of K7,189,448, Value Added Tax (VAT) inclusive, and the contract duration is ten months. Thereafter, the findings of the studies will be used for the solicitation of financing for the project from the co-operating partners.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

_______

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

VOTE 07 – (Office of the Auditor-General – K115,864,637).

(Consideration resumed)

The Vice-President (Mrs Wina): Madam Chairperson, when the House adjourned last week on Friday, I was just about to say that in order to achieve the above-mentioned outputs, the Office of the Auditor-General will ensure that its resources are used in an economic, efficient and effective manner. A provision of K2.2 million in the 2019 Budget is for audit plans, quality assurance, monitoring and evaluation. Under this provision, the office will be able to ensure that its activities are aligned to the Government’s programmes in order to contribute towards the achievement of development outcomes as indicated in the Seventh National Development Plan (7NDP).

Madam Chairperson, in line with the Government’s efforts for a smart Zambia, a provision of K844,551 has been made for the implementation of information and communication technology (ICT) development and support activities. The cost includes the provision for the procurement of ICT equipment such as laptops in order for the office to reach the auditor to laptop ratio of one to one.

Madam Chairperson, as you may be aware, the core function of the office, which is auditing, requires travelling and as such, it is critical to ensure that vehicles and other tools are in good condition. Therefore, a provision of K750,000 has been made to cater for the insurance and maintenance of motor vehicles. Other expenses provided for in the budget include the administrative costs such as the maintenance of buildings and payment of utility bills. In this regard, a total budget of K910,000 has been made to meet these expenses.

Lastly, Madam Chairperson, a total of K1.6 million has been provided for to enable the new Directorate of Finance to manage the financial and accounting activities of the office such as preparation of financial reports and audit fees.

Madam Chairperson, I wish to emphasise that the role of the Office of the Auditor-General in promoting sound financial management in public institutions is critical to the economic development of the country as it ensures accountability and transparency in the use of public resources. I, therefore, request this august House to pass the 2019 budget of K115,864,637 for the Office of the Auditor-General.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Muchima (Ikeleng’i): Madam Chairperson, I wish to add my voice to the debate on the Vote for the Office of the Auditor-General. This office is a critical component of accounting in the Public Service. Once this office is upgraded in terms of personnel and funding, even the abuses of the Social Cash Transfer Scheme that we are talking about will be part of the things of the past. With an effective audit system in Zambia, the taxpayers’ money will be safe.

Madam Chairperson, first and foremost, I wish to thank the hon. Minister of Finance for including this office in the allocations under the last supplementary budget. The presence of the Office of the Auditor-General is supposed to be everywhere the Government spends public or donor funds in the country. That is what will create public confidence in the use of public funds in the country. However, what we have seen is that the work of the Office of the Auditor-General is limited. The Government wants to treat it like any other public department. This is a very essential component of the Government functionaries.

Madam Chairperson, there are 138 district councils in this country. However, to date, only thirty-eight councils have been audited, leaving the other 100 district councils unaudited. Audits should be up-to-date. This cannot happen if this office is underfunded. This office is supposed to have transport and manpower for its presence to be in every province in order to ensure that the Government’s money is accounted for appropriately. There are a lot of financial loopholes in the Government. Civil servants are taking advantage simply because of the inadequacies in the Office of the Auditor-General.

Madam Chairperson, this Government is not serious about this office. There was an Acting Auditor-General for more than three years. Why were they afraid to confirm him? He left. We still have no Auditor-General when the Constitution demands that we should have one. Why is the Government afraid to appoint an Auditor-General? With all these accountants everywhere, why can the Government not appoint one of them? The one who left grew up in the system. Let us not politicise that position. Let us not appoint a person who will be a bootlicker. There is even a rumour going round that this Auditor-General’s Report which was distributed was doctored. We want an independent mind to be appointed. I want ...

The Chairperson: Hon. Member, the word “bootlicker” is unparliamentary. Please, withdraw it.

Mr Muchima: Which one?

The Chairperson: Bootlicker.

Mr Muchima: I withdraw it.

Madam Chairperson, we do not want those who will bend to the rules of the politicians. This office is very critical. We need someone with an independent mind who can act without fear or favour. However, the problem is that everything is highly politicised. The Government wants somebody it will be able to call at night to ask him/her to do this and that. This office is supposed to check everywhere where Government money is applied. There are many loopholes. This office is very critical. It is supposed to verify how every Kwacha of the Zambian Government is spent. However, we have trivialised it and made it like any other office.

Madam Chairperson, we waited for the donors to talk about the Social Cash Transfer Scheme money that went missing. Yet, it is supposed to be the duty of the Office of the Auditor-General to spot such things. It is even supposed to audit the Ministry of Finance itself. It is supposed to analyse the Budget to see where the money which was appropriated went to. It is supposed to trail the expenditure of every ministry. However, it cannot do that when it has limited resources. It has very few officers. It cannot be effective without funding. Without funding, we render the office useless. It cannot do its work. The office has so many demands, but is inhibited. It cannot go anywhere. We need to be serious if Government money or taxpayers’ money is to be protected. Let us recruit more officers in this office just like we have allowed the Ministry of General Education and the Ministry of Health to recruit more officers. That is the only way we will ensure that there is accountability. We have deliberately not equipped this office.

Madam Chairperson, most of the ministries today want to have forensic accountants. How many forensic accountants do we have in ministries? There are very few. There are many things happening in the ministries because people have taken advantage of the situation. I do not know whether the ministries have internal auditors. For the Office of the Auditor-General to be effective, it needs to rely on the work of internal auditors in the ministries. However, what is happening today? Those internal auditors seem to be compromised. This is very serious.

Madam Chairperson, we need to create confidence in the donors. We need to create confidence using the Office of the Auditor-General. When we had Madam Chifungula in that office, it was highly respected. The moment she left, the office was left bare. I do not know whether the officers are being threatened or have become partisan. As for me and my colleagues here on the left, we want that office to be more independent without any interference. We need officers from there to go and audit every ministry and every council. They need to be up to date. I repeat that the officers from the Office of the Auditor-General can only do that when they are funded adequately.

Madam Chairperson, when we debate here, we do not debate merely for appeasement. We want to help the people in the Government become very efficient. We want to help them manage the affairs of the country effectively. However, some of the people in the Government think we are just here to talk. That is why they respond in whichever manner they want. We want to add value to what those who are in Government are doing. We want those who are in Government to look at critical things. There are certain ministries which are very critical. The Office of the Auditor-General is a very critical component of the Government. Some of us understand how serious this office is because we have worked in accounting in the Government.

Interruptions

Mr Muchima: Madam Chairperson, I need your protection. There is one hon. Minister there (pointing at the right) who keeps interfering with my debate.

Laughter

Mr Muchima: The hon. Minister of Justice.

Laughter

The Chairperson: You are protected. Please, continue.

Mr Muchima: Madam Chairperson, thank you. Hon. Minister of Justice, I am protected.

Madam Chairperson, I was saying that we all need to support the Office of the Auditor-General. If there will be some adjustments or supplementary funds, let us look at providing transport for officers in this office, fuel allocation and recruitment. Zambia has lost its credibility because of what is happening today in the ministries. What has happened in these ministries is just a tip of the iceberg. We were supposed to subject every ministry to a forensic audit, but how many forensic accountants do we have? We should train our auditors seriously so that we can protect the taxpayers’ money. Zambia can only be respected on that ground.

Madam Chairperson, I do not want to talk and talk on this important issue. I urge my colleagues on the right, through Her Honour the Vice-President, to make adjustments to the funding for this office. The Government should buy vehicles for this office. The Office of the Auditor-General should ensure that all the councils, parastatals and ministries are audited every year. We want them to be up-to-date. Some of those culprits cited in the Auditor-General’s Report should not be left running and drinking tea. They should not end up being suspended only. Instead, they should be arrested. Whoever has been cited by the Auditor-General should be reported to the security wings and taken to court like any other person. However, what is happening today? The Government just says it has suspended this one or that investigations are still going on. We need to give power to the investigative wings to be present at Committee meetings so that Zambia can earn back the integrity which it had during the Movement for Multi-Party Democracy (MMD) regime under late President Mwanawasa, SC.. Everyone respected it and Zambia became whatever it was. If we had followed that line, today, we would have been somewhere else.

Madam Chairperson, with these few words, I support this important Vote. I urge this Government to bring a name here for ratification for an Auditor-General. We need that office to function.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Kasonso (Solwezi West): Madam Chairperson, thank you. In standing to support the Vote, I have a few things to say about this office.

Madam Chairperson, the Office of the Auditor-General is very important because it is the one which ensures that whatever funds we approve in this House are looked after properly. However, it appears that the current Government of the Patriotic Front (PF) has watered down the strength of this office. I will prove what I am saying to you. If you look at page 21 of the Ministry of Finance Financial Report for the Year Ended 31^st December, 2017, you will find that the approved budget for the Office of the Auditor-General for 2017 was K104,450,936, but it only received K88,533,697, meaning it was underfunded by K15,917,239, which is close to K16 million. Obviously, that tells a story. This means that some programmes could not be implemented. Yet, it is a very critical office.

Madam Chairperson, what I am saying is that the hon. Minister of Finance must ensure that under no circumstances should this office be underfunded. If the Office of the Auditor-General remains underfunded, what my colleague, Hon. Muchima, said will continue happening. Similarly, what has happened at the Ministry of General Education and the Ministry of Community Development and Social Welfare will not go away. It takes money to look after money, just as it takes money to make money.

Mr Muchima: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasonso: Madam Chairperson, the importance of this office cannot be underestimated. If you look at the same page, you will note that the 2018 Budget was reduced to K93.729,050 million from K104,450,936 million. So far, only 66 per cent of that funding has been released. We only have one-and-a-half month before the year comes to an end. There is no hope that 90 per cent of this budget will be executed. Perhaps, only 75 per cent or 80 per cent of the budget will be executed. What that means is that the Office of the Auditor-General will be underfunded.

Madam Chairperson, with regard to transport, the Office of the Auditor-General was last funded in 2015. This means that the office has no transport or if it has, it is not sufficient. In next year’s Budget, the allocation to the Office of the Auditor-General has been increased to some extent, by 23.6 per cent and it now stands at K115,864,637 million. My hope is that the hon. Minister of Finance will release all these monies which have been budgeted for.

Madam Chairperson, I know why the Office of the Auditor-General is not being manned by a full-time Auditor-General. The challenge is the establishment of the State Audit Commission which is not yet in place. The hon. Minister of Justice should just go to page 94 of the Zambian Constitution to understand what I am talking about. According to Article 234(1) of the Constitution, there is a requirement that the State Audit Commission, which is not yet in place, shall oversee the operations of the Office of the Auditor-General. There is also a requirement that the commission will recommend to the President the person who should be appointed as Auditor-General. I am appealing to the hon. Minister of Finance to ensure that the State Audit Commission is put in place. This is a priority commission which must not be looked at like all the other commissions.

Madam Chairperson, much as the Office of the Auditor-General is important, it must also be augmented in terms of its operations by the way our colleagues in the Ministry of Finance operate. For instance, we currently hear that some accounting staff at the Ministry of General Education and the Ministry of Community Development and Social Welfare have been fired. It must not just end there. Those people must be named and shamed so that the misuse of public funds can come to an end. The Office of the Auditor-General should lead this exercise. We must, therefore, ensure that all the funds that are budgeted for in the 2019 Budget are released. I am aware that we might be going into some austerity measures, but I would like to propose that these measures should not be applied to this particular office.

Madam Chairperson, I am also aware that the mandate of the Office of the Auditor-General has been enhanced. It is now mandated to audit all the councils in the country. All of us seated in this House know how funds are being misused in district councils. It is therefore important that this office is given all the leadership that it requires. In fact, it needed an Auditor-General like yesterday, to provide leadership and ensure that it is functioning effectively.

Madam Chairperson, in conclusion, I want to re-emphasise that the Office of the Auditor-General should be funded in full and without compromise for it to operate effectively.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Mbulakulima (Milenge): Madam Chairperson, thank you for this rare opportunity to contribute to the debate. First of all, let me thank and congratulate Hon. Mabumba, the hon. Minister of General Education and the Government for the manner in which the issues to do with the Grade 7, Grade 9 and Grade 12 examinations were handled. I think the issues were handled very well considering that this was a national project. The Government handled the matter so well without inconveniencing anyone. That is commendable.

Madam Chairperson, allow me to make a few remarks on this important Vote. Definitely, the importance of this office cannot be overemphasised. This is the office that has been assigned the responsibility of being the watchdog of public resources. I think it is watchdog number one. The other offices supplement these efforts, but this particular one stands out with regard to this responsibility. Any mishap in that regard could be disastrous to the nation.

Madam Chairperson, I see that there are two major issues which define this office. These are the independence and the autonomy of the Office of the Auditor-General. These are very important elements. That is why our office is affiliated to international institutes like the Southern African Development Community Organisation of Supreme Audit Institutions (SADCOSAI), the African Organisation of Supreme Audit Institutions (AFROSAI) and, indeed, the International Organisation of Supreme Audit Institutions (INTOSAI). All these institutions actually emphasise the importance of the independence and autonomy of the Office of the Auditor-General.

Madam Chairperson, I believe that as a country, we have done relatively well in terms of the independence of this office. Since time immemorial to the times of Mr Nundwe, Mr Siame, Madam Chifungula to date, there have been very little, if any, interference with the operations of this office. The officers stood the test of time. Having been a member of the Public Accounts Committee (PAC) for some time, I see no interference from the Government. However, we need to improve on the autonomy. It is the requirement of these international organisations that I have mentioned to ensure that the responsibility to employ staff to this office be given to the Office of the Auditor-General and not under the Public Service Management Division (PSMD). This office must be given the autonomy to employ its own staff. That defines the independence and autonomy aspect. We need to go that route in line with the Lima Declaration of Guidelines on Auditing Precepts.

Madam Chairperson, I also observe that there has been some relative increment from K93.729,050 million in 2018 to K115,864,637 million next year. However, as my other hon. Colleagues have said, this is not enough looking at the importance of this office. Further, the responsibilities of this office have been enhanced. Apart from the mainstream Government ministries which this office does not audit fully, but randomly, it now also has the responsibility to audit the local Government structures. We know how porous the local Government offices can be. Further, the office also has the responsibility to audit State enterprises. So, its responsibilities have been increased while its funding and employee structure has remained almost static. I think it is from this angle that we believe that we need to enhance the financial support for this office.

Madam Chairperson, the job has already been done by the office. I have observed that the actual Report of the Auditor-General has always been very bulky. I think the message is now clear. In the last financial year, the Report of the Auditor-General had 388 pages. This year, it has 307 pages. This is an improvement because the work of this office is being appreciated by many, and this must be encouraged.

Madam Speaker, I also observe that the effort of the Office of the Auditor-General is not in vein. Most of the anomalies which have been highlighted year in and year out are now being worked on. I observe the reduction in the number of queries or anomalies. For example, in terms of misapplications, the report indicates a reduction from K162 million to K61 million. This is a huge reduction because of the fear to abuse public resources. I also observe that in terms of unretired imprest, the amount has moved from K17 million to K4 million. This is another huge reduction. For the unvouchered expenditures, there is also a reduction from K170 million to K14 million. So, you can see that the effort of this office is producing dividends and indeed, there is a need to support it massively. However, I have also observed that there is an upward trend with regard to the misapplication of funds in some cases. For example, unaccounted for funds have increased to K338,600 million from K31,002 million and irregular payments from K1.5 million to K21.7 million. There is an upswing in that regard. However, all in all, we have seen the improvement coming through.

Madam Chairperson, as I said earlier, this is one office which needs enough qualified human resource. That can only come through if it is given the autonomy which is required by the international supreme audit bodies.

Madam Chairperson, I also observed that this is one institution which does not default in terms of the production of reports. In other countries, such offices remain behind by four or so years, but our office in Zambia has always been on top of things. I think that the office needs the support of this House because it has been current with its work.

Madam Chairperson, probably, another area which might require improvement is the bulkiness of the Report of the Auditor-General, year in and out. This arises from the same common anomalies whose answers are only found when auditors appear before PAC. This could be an indication that the auditors are not given ample time. I think this is what the Office of the Auditor-General needs to work on. How come it is whenever auditors appear before PAC that the answers are found? Mostly, their observations are that they are not given ample time. I know that auditing is a process because there is a lot of exchange of ideas, management letters and the rest, but I still think that the employees in the Office of the Auditor-General must be firm. They should give ultimatums to the controlling officers so that they improve on the outcomes of the Report of the Auditor-General.

Madam Chairperson, with these few remarks, I totally support the Vote.

Mr Kamboni (Kalomo Central): Madam Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate on the Vote on the Floor of the House.

Madam Chairperson, the Zambian people gave the Patriotic Front (PF) Government –

Mr Mwiinga: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

Laughter

The Chairperson: Order!

Why have you stopped debating? Continue, please.

Mr Kamboni: Madam Chairperson, the Zambian people gave the PF Government the opportunity to run this country. The PF was given the country to run. The country had institutions to help it in the administration of the affairs of this country, but unfortunately, with its philosophies of Dununa reverse, which means, taking things backwards, ubomba mwibala alya mwibala, which means a worker in the field feeds from that particular field, and a concoction of Don’t kubeba or don’t tell them, the systems were systematically destroyed for the benefit of those who are in power instead of following the law and order.

Madam Chairperson, the Office of the Auditor-General is very cardinal. Any leader worth his salt will respect this part of Government. This is where the feedback is got from. The question that I would like to ask is: How much money has this country lost through misappropriations and embezzlements? In this whole Budget, if I am to ask the hon. Minister of Finance to roughly give me a synopsis, how much money does she think she will lose through misappropriations and embezzlements? It is colossal.

Madam Chairperson, the Office of the Auditor-General is not capacitated to do its work. This is deliberate. In well-meaning countries, every after two months, all Government offices are audited. In Zambia, very few or less than one quarter of the institutions are audited. So, these figures which are given in the Report of the Auditor-General are not correct because only very few institutions are audited. Why is it so? Let me inform this House why the PF Government has no respect for this office.

Madam Chairperson, firstly, the Auditor-General who is acting now does not qualify to be in that job. The Constitution says that any Auditor-General shall be a member of the Zambia Institute of Chartered Accountants (ZICA). The current acting Auditor-General is not a member of ZICA. He should have not even signed or endorsed the Auditor- General’s Report document because he does not qualify for the job, yet we have so many accountants in this country who qualify. How does one work well in this office when he does not know the tenure of his office? He has been left there hanging in an acting position. An auditor must be allowed to do his job freely. He must be given his tenure of office or contract so that he does his work effectively because this will benefit the country. Currently the country has lost a lot of money because the things which any leader worth their salt is supposed to pay attention to are not being attended to.

Madam Chairperson, the other issues I want to talk about have to do with the senior officers in the Office of the Auditor-General, for example, the Assistant Director, the Principle Auditor and the Senior Auditor. These officers in these positions do not qualify to be in them. They were given ten years in which to upgrade their studies so that they can qualify to be in their positions. None of them has actually done that, yet we are still keeping them even if they are not doing their work effectively. How can the Government reflect on how it is operating if we do not have an Office of the Auditor-General which is respected?

Madam Chairperson, as regards the funding to the Office of the Auditor-General, the PF Government has deliberately cut it so that its officials can do whatever they are doing systematically without being caught. How can the Office of the Auditor-General work? First of all, its capacity is small and, then, its funding is reduced. How can the officers in that office do their job? If they are only auditing a quarter of all the Government institutions, how can they write a report? It means that the report is half-baked because first of all, even the acting Auditor-General does not qualify to be in his position?

Madam Chairperson, another issue is the failure by the Executive to punish erring officers. When the Office of the Auditor-General mentions the erring officers, the Executive does not take any action. Those in the Executive who are highly paid and can fly in a plane which costs US$400 million do not act on the recommendations made by the Auditor-General. So, why do we even have this office? It is a sheer waste of taxpayer’s money, if no action is taken against those who err in doing their work.

Madam Chairperson, the Office of the Auditor-General does not have teeth. It has no authority to prosecute. For example, if somebody was to embezzle money today, it would take a minimum of fifteen months to arrest the culprit in the current system. We have had cases where people embezzle huge amounts of money and fly away to other countries causing the Government to lose money. You cannot run a country without a very effective Office of the Auditor-General. It is like running a house with no sitting room or kitchen and calling it a home.

Mr Mwiinga: No toilet.

Mr Kamboni: Maybe, even no toilet, to make it worse.

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kamboni: Madam Chairperson, the failure by the Executive to take action is what has rendered the Office of the Auditor-General ineffective in the running of the country in its current state.

Madam Chairperson, let us also look at prosecutions. The Office of the Auditor-General does not have the teeth to prosecute anybody. It relies on the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC), the Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC) and the Zambia Police Service, which are restricted institutions. These institutions are not allowed to investigate every person. These agencies are told that certain people cannot be investigated. They need permission to investigate hon. Ministers and other people. How can you run a country like that? These are the people who are at the centre of the wealth of the country who the ACC, DEC and the Zambia Police Service need permission to investigate. This is where everything breaks down.

Madam Chairperson, I will give you an example of a case which is very clear involving the Ministry of Community Development and Social Welfare. First of all, the Social Cash Transfer Scheme started in Kalomo. I observed that it was very effective because there was no embezzlement of money. How did the embezzlement begin? It began when the memorandum of understanding (MOU) was changed. All the officers who were doing a good job were laid off and replaced by boys and girls who were very obedient to corruption without question.

Laughter

Mr Kamboni: The new people were employed after 21^st of August, 2017 when the new MoU was signed to bring in a whole system to benefit corruption. By January, this year, six months after the new employees came on the scene, the beneficiaries did not get any money. There was an institutionalised way of embezzling money meant for the poor and orphans.

Madam Chairperson, this is why I am trying to say that if we had a strong Office of the Auditor-General, we would have saved money which could have gone to the building of schools, the construction of the Kafue/Mazabuka Road and the taking of medication to hospitals. We have lost enough money to build another country. We have to multiply the money that has been lost in the report by fifteen in order to get the correct figure. The figure which we are being given is not true because not all institutions are audited.

Madam Chairperson, this is why I am saying that we need to be serious with the running of the Government. You cannot be building while you are destroying. If you build during the day and destroy at night, what kind of a house are you going to have? This is exactly what is happening. This office is rendered useless by the PF Government because it is totally against their philosophies of Dununa reverse and ubomba mwibala alya mwibala.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Alya mwibala.

Dr Kambwili (pointing at Hon. Nkombo): Iwe, uyu ale landa ati ubomba mwibala

Laughter

Mr Kamboni: Madam Chairperson, I will repeat the issues which I raised with regard to restrictions. These are very serious issues because you cannot say all animals are equal when other animals are more equal than others. Why should the ACC be restricted in doing its job? Why should the DEC be restricted in investigating people? Why should the police be told when to – When you see a system that is dead or rotten, you will find out that it is the President who says when something should be investigated. If he does not say it, and no work is done, then the country loses money. When the country loses money, the kwacha is put under pressure and, then, it loses value. This leads to our loan amounts increasing. Who pays for this? It is the people.

Madam Speaker, in my own view, this is what the PF Government should do or rather what we, the United Party for National Development (UPND), will do. We will increase the capacity of the Office of the Auditor-General so that all the offices are audited regularly.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kamboni: All the offices should be audited, at least, once every two months. We shall not only involve Government auditors but also involve private ones to audit Government institutions. We shall also involve the suppliers’ offices to audit the Government institutions. What I am talking about happens in South Africa, Namibia and Botswana. The Government offices are audited regularly. We should not have a situation where an institution stays for ten years without being audited. As the UPND, we will make sure that we put a qualified Auditor-General in place.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kamboni: We shall make sure that we increase the funding for the Office of the Auditor-General because it will make the work easier. It will save the country’s money to the benefit of the citizens.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr A. B. Malama: When?

Mr Kamboni: Madam Speaker, we shall also give the Office of the Auditor-General power to prosecute. We shall amend the Constitution to give the Office of the Auditor-General powers to prosecute immediately. This happens in all modern countries. When they audit and find something is wrong, they take you to court within three to five days, but here, it takes a minimum of fifteen months. Everything allows ubomba mwibala ukulya mwibala. It allows anybody to benefit through corruption from wherever he/she is working from. The result is that the Government loses a lot of money, yet we are using taxpayer’s money to pay these auditors who are doing nothing. The auditors that we have, do not qualify, yet, we have many people who qualify for these jobs in this country. We need to change the way of doing things.

Madam Chairperson, even when this budget was put at 86 –

The Chairperson: Order!

You cannot debate officers in that manner. Withdraw that statement that auditors are not qualified.

Mr Kamboni: That auditors are not what?

The Chairperson: You have forgotten what you said?

Mr Kamboni: I have forgotten.

Laughter

The Chairperson: You said that the auditors we have do not qualify. Withdraw that statement and remember you cannot debate the officers.

Mr Kamboni: I thank you, Madam Chairperson, but the truth here is that –

The Chairperson: Just withdraw it.

Mr Kamboni: I withdraw that statement, but it is important that the country knows that the Acting Auditor-General is not a member of the Zambia Institute of Charted Accountants (ZICA) which the country’s Constitution states he must be a member of.

The Chairperson: Hon. Kamboni, I have just guided. You are debating the Office of the Auditor-General and not the Auditor-General or Acting Auditor-General as a person.

Continue with your debate.

Mr Kamboni: Madam Chairperson, but the office carries the Auditor-General’s –

The Chairperson: I have just guided.

Laughter

Mr Kamboni: Madam Chairperson, thank you very much. I withdraw what I said. However, I like my approach of looking at everything holistically. If I am looking at a human being, I will not only pick the eyes, but will instead take the whole body so that I analyse it properly.

Laughter

Mr Kamboni: What I am trying to say, jokes aside, is that we need to respect this office –

The Chairperson: You must be the only one joking because no one else is.

Laughter

Mr Kamboni: We need to respect this office. Those who are not doing their work properly are the ones who are joking because they have the mandate from the Zambian people to make sure that they do their work well in order to benefit the country. We are now in a cash-strapped situation. Thus, we need each and every coin. Even with the about K86 billion that we have budgeted for, it is possible that we are going to lose more than K20 billion through embezzlement and misappropriation, which could be saved if we had a good Office of the Auditor-General.

Madam Chairperson, in leadership, it is very important that you use the wealth of the country to turn things around for the benefit of the citizens so that you can offer social services well. It does not augur well when you are careless in spending and deliberately remove people that are supposed to protect the Government’s property so as to make the system lose in order to benefit you and your greedy leaders.

Madam Chairperson, I will end by saying the PF Government still has a chance to redeem itself.

Mr Mwiinga: They do not have!

Mr Kamboni: Let those who are in Government restructure this office so that the country can benefit. Zambians are tired of too many taxes and stories. What they need now is deliverance. With these few words, I will end by wishing the House all the best in its deliberations.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Laughter

Mr Syakalima (Chirundu): Madam Chairperson, in debating the Vote for the Office of the Auditor-General, I would like to say that this office should not lose hope because on the horizon, it will be respected far more than it is today. It used to consistently behave as it was required to behave. This is until the Patriotic Front (PF) came into power. It even when working under –

The Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1640 hours until 1700 hours.

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

Mr Syakalima: Madam Chairperson, before business was suspended, I was saying that in debating this Vote, I must state from the outset that the Office of the Auditor-General, under the circumstances we find ourselves in as a country, especially under the PF Government, has been very steadfast. It is, to a large extent, the only institution of the State or governance that has kept itself afloat in the midst of what I can reasonably state is political chauvinism.

Madam Chairperson, I said before business was suspended that this institution must know that there is hope. It is the only one that makes some of us feel that there is an institution that we can still petition as a country. If you still remember my debates on the President’s Speech and the Budget Address, you will recall that I said that there is no country called Zambia to write home about apart from the boundaries that were left by the colonialists. I also want to state that even then, there are institutions such as the Office of the Auditor-General. If you wind back to 2001, you will notice that I have consistently said that this is the only institution that I still feel has kept itself in a professionally afloat manner up to this time. I hope that one day, those who are working for the Office of the Auditor-General will see the shore. I want to encourage the officers to continue doing what they have been doing.

Madam Chairperson, you will recall that I am a very difficult person when it comes to giving A+. I rarely do that. However, I think that this particular institution, under the circumstances and environment under the PF, has done something that all other institutions of the State have not done. However, I feel its frustration.

Mr Mwiimbu: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: Year in and year out, it produces the Auditor-General’s reports, but nothing happens because it is neither its job nor mandate to prosecute. It is not mandated to investigate the issues raised in the reports which it produces. I am afraid to state that other organs of the State which should have helped the Office of the Auditor-General such as the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) and the Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC) are moribund. I will come to these commissions as we debate them because when we were appointing the Director-General for the ACC, there was something that I said about this institution. It is the one that is mandated to start investigations after the Office of the Auditor-General has given a report. The Office of the Auditor-General even makes the work of the ACC easier. The ACC could just move in to check the issues that are at hand.

Madam Speaker, the Zambia Police Service is also an investigative wing which is supposed to augment the work of the Office of the Auditor-General. So, how else would an institution like this one, which has tried very hard, do its work? It is very difficult to survive as an institution under the PF. This is why I feel the frustration of those who are working at the Office of the Auditor-General.

Hon. PF Members: Question!

Mr Syakalima: Madam Chairperson, if I was put in that office, what would be going through my mind is that every year, I produce a report which just remains with no follow-ups. Once the report is released, the Office of the Auditor-General has done its work. What else can it do under the circumstances? Its mandate ends somewhere. It begins and ends somewhere. Somebody must carry the mantle, but no one does it.

Madam Chairperson, let our State institutions work the way they are supposed to. How else would we say it? Probably, these institutions will wake up, but I can see that it will be a mammoth task to revitalise these institutions of the State. We can only encourage the Office of the Auditor-General to, please, continue on the path that it has decided. It has tried very hard under all the successive Governments to do well. It did a lot of work even under the One-party State. In a multi-party State, some people want to kill all the institutions of the State.

Mr Nkombo: Hear, hear! Tell them Douglas.

Mr Syakalima: How can that be under a multi-party State? It should be elsewhere. You certainly do not need a “Government” if you have proper State institutions. They will run on their own. This is what governance is about. State institutions must be strengthened. Do not destroy State institutions. Since the Office of the Auditor-General is the last bastion amongst all the State institutions that I have talked about, let it continue existing so that it keeps us afloat as the PF gets out of the governance system.

Hon. UPND: Hear, hear!

Hon. PF Members: Question!

Mr Syakalima: Madam Chairperson, Zambians have seen how our State institutions have collapsed. These are the disastrous consequences of electing a Government that wants to destroy State institutions. Little wonder that the same PF has been advocating for a one-party State. We want to say that even if it advocates for that, we were once through it for twenty-seven years. So, if those who are in the PF Government want to bring the one party State back, they will still find the Office of the Auditor-General which will audit them.

Madam Chairperson, we are saying that we need to reasonably fund the Office of the Auditor-General so that it is able to audit institutions which we allocate a lot of money to. How can it investigate such institutions with this little money that we allocate it? It is looking for K2 billion in some ministries, K5 billion in others and millions and millions of kwacha in certain institutions. How will it do this? Now I understand that there is an allocation of K750,000 for insurance and vehicles when the institution has no vehicles. The Office of the Auditor-General must be on the ground in all the districts. This is how the job will be made lighter.

Mr Muchima: Yes!

Mr Syakalima: Madam Chairperson, I can tell you that this Government is not serious. Probably, it is deliberate. Maybe, it is. We should not say it is not serious. It knows some things, but ignores them deliberately. This is not its money. We appropriate money here and cannot start chasing around who has gotten what. This is why the Office of the Auditor-General was put in place.

Madam Chairperson, before Independence in traditional Africa, we did not have these State institutions to check because within our families and villages, there was a way in which we used to audit ourselves. Even now, when you go into a village, you will find auditors, who are not called as such. They check what happens in the villages. The Office of the Auditor-General is a State institution which is supposed to be funded by the State. Since the State wants to protect itself, it does not fund it adequately enough to enable it to do its work.

Mr Kampyongo: Question!

Mr Livune: Ah!

Mr Syakalima: Madam Chairperson, I want to tell the Auditor-General to actually follow this Social Cash Transfer Scheme investigation.

Mr Muchima: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: No explanation whatsoever has convinced me that what we have been hearing is correct.

Mr Mwamba: You can never be convinced.

Mr Syakalima: The Auditor-General, as he investigates the Social Cash Transfer Scheme issue, must make sure that he follows any paper trail.

Mr Muchima: Yes!

Mr Syakalima: Nobody has convinced me that the money …

Mr Sing’ombe: Was in the bank.

Mr Syakalima: … was just found lying in the bank.

Mr Muchima: How?

Mr Syakalima: You cannot tell me that.

Ms Chalikosa: Check the bank statements.

Mr Sing’ombe: Ah!

Mr Syakalima: Madam Chairperson, this is why I am saying that there is a paper trail whether some people like it or not.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: Papers can easily be trailed.

Ms Lubezhi: Yes!

Mr Syakalima: This is why we are now saying that we must have forensic and value for money audits. The Office of the Auditor-General must look at such issues.

Mr Muchima: Yes!

Mr Syakalima: Mr Chairperson, in fact, last year, I was very impressed when the Office of the Auditor-General was carrying out value for money audits to check whether the contracts that we sign as a country are commensurate with what is obtaining on the ground.

Mr Muchima: Hear, hear!

Mr Livune: That is right.

Mr Syakalima: It was found out that actually, the construction projects are getting a lot of money which is not commensurate with the works.

Mr Muchima: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: Those who are in the PF Government are trying to avoid funding the Office of the Auditor-General …

Mr Livune: That is right.

Mr Syakalima: … because, for now, there are all these issues about forensic and value for money audits. They are getting trapped. This is why I am asking the hon. Members on the right not to bask in comfort. One day, we shall know how this money was said to be lying around in one account…

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: … because the explanations have been quite different. Today, I heard another explanation.

Ms Chalikosa: What did you hear?

Mr Syakalima: We do not even require to go and check at the bank to establish where the money was collected from. Last year, the Office of the Auditor-General took an audit over the water and sanitation money which was coming from Germany and it was discovered that K3 million had gone missing. All of sudden when the issue came out in the open, we were told that the money had been reimbursed. Who had it then?

Hon. UPND Members: Eh!

Mr Syakalima: The money was embezzled. When the auditors went to audit, they found that the money was not there. Then the Government said that the money had been reimbursed. We need to check where the money to reimburse donors came from …

Hon. Government Members laughed.

Mr Syakalima: ... because these are similar trends.

Mr Lubinda: Douglas.

Mr Kampyongo: Presidential advisor.

Mr Syakalima: Mr Chairperson, where did that money come from? If you still recall, I asked the hon. Minister of Water Development, Sanitation and Environmental Protection, here, where the €300 million came from all of a sudden? This is the same way this has happened. We shall see where the money was mobilised from before it went to sit in that account.

Mr Mwamba: Next point.

Mr Sing’ombe: Masholi.

Laughter

Mr Syakalima: So, Madam Chairperson, as I take this seat which was graciously bestowed upon me by the people of Chirundu, I want to sound the warning that nothing is going to be hidden. Just like the Auditor-General picks out certain things to the discomfort of those in the Executive, there are certain things that we will see as the days go by. Those in Government cannot run away. Public resources belong to the public.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: Madam Chairperson, whatever is being done will float. With those very few words, …

Mr Livune: That is right.

Mr Syakalima: ... I would like to say that the Office of the Auditor-General must be strengthened. Those who work in that office must be supported and encouraged. They should not lose hope.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutale (Chitambo): Madam Chairperson, …

Mr A. Malama: Ema Whip awe!

Mr Mutale: … indeed, time has come for me to debate. I have heard enough and learnt so much from the previous debaters. I would like to put it on record that I fully support the Vote on the Office of the Auditor-General. I fully support the budgetary allocation.

Madam Chairperson, the Office of the Auditor-General is doing a commendable job for the people of Zambia. The Office of the Auditor-General must be supported by all well-meaning Zambians. The Office of the Auditor-General cannot operate without the Government’s goodwill. It is the Patriotic Front’s goodwill that makes it possible for the Office of the Auditor-General to operate in the manner that we are seeing it operate today.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutale: Madam Chairperson, it is the PF Government which gives the mandate to this Office of the Auditor-General to operate and check how Government resources are being spent.

Mr Mwiinga: It is not the PF, but the people.

Mr Mutale: The Government of the PF does not interfere with the operations of this wonderful office.

Madam Chairperson, without the support of the Government, this office cannot operate in the way it does. I want to state here that when I hear the general public talk about people misappropriating or embezzling money, I know that it is because they have read and seen what is contained in the Auditor General’s Report, meaning that the PF Government is very transparent.

Mr Muchima: No!

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Mr Mutale: We are showing the Zambians how prudent we are when it comes to managing the finances of this country.

Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Mutale: Madam Chairperson, today, our colleagues in the Opposition are able to raise their voices to talk about embezzlement of money because we are saying, we shall not hide anything.

Madam Chairperson, it is not easy to open up your bedroom to show people what is there.

Hon. UPND Members: Ah!

Interruptions

Mr Mutale: The PF is saying come and audit us. Come and see what we are doing. This is what we are doing.

Interruptions

Mr Mutale: Mr Chairperson, the Opposition should commend us for what we are doing in that we are not just – Those who are identified as having embezzled funds are followed up, suspended and made to pay back.

Mr Mwamba: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutale: Which is a very good thing.

Mr Mwamba: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutale: Madam Chairperson, people must first pay back before they can be taken anywhere. Yes, we want the law to visit them, but we also need the money to be paid back.

Madam Chairperson, the measures which the Government has put in place to help the Office of the Auditor-General can be seen by the people who are now commending it for them. If I recall very well, in our quest to form Government, we went into a pact with the United Party for National Development (UPND). At that time, the late President Michael Sata, may his soul rest peace, said there was a person in their group who was called calculator boy or calculator man.

Mr Lubinda: Not man, boy.

Mr Mutale: He was nicknamed that because of the embezzlement he engaged in when he privatised public institutions.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. UPND Members: Question!

Mr Mutale: He was nicknamed calculator boy because of the embezzlement he engaged in during the privatisation of public institutions.

Mr Livune: Question!

Interruptions

Mr Lubinda: Calculator boy.

Mr Mutale: Today, this is the man who is overseeing an opposition party which people are proud about it.

Mrs Fundanga: Shame!

Mr Mutale: Madam Chairperson, I would like the Office of the Auditor-General to revisit the privatisation of these public institutions ...

Hon. UPND Members: Oh!

Interruptions

Mr Mutale: ... so that the Zambian people can know what we are talking about when we say certain individuals cannot rule this country.

Mr Machila: Question!

Interruptions

Mr Kampyongo: Remind them.

Mr Mutale: Madam Chairperson, we have not forgotten what happened. Actually, the civil servants did not start this embezzlement, they learnt it from somebody.

Laughter

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutale: They learnt it from somebody who is now a leader of an opposition party.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mr Mutale: Madam Chairperson, the Office of the Auditor-General should not sit idly and watch this man who embezzled money from the privatization programme. I urge it to revisit the sale of these public institutions. We want to know what really happened before they come into power, if at all they ever will. Thereafter, the Zambian people will know the type of leaders they shall be voting for.

Mr Kampyongo: Embezzlers!

Mr Mutale: Madam Chairperson, let me talk about the allocation of funds. The Office of the Auditor-General should do a good job. I am appealing to the hon. Minister of Finance to increase the allocation to this institution next time. I know that even if the authorities have not visited some of our colleagues in the Opposition, they are doing a lot and need to be checked. We know their connections. One day, what they are doing shall also be brought out in the open and the people of Zambia will know about it.

Hon. UPND Members: Question!

Mr Mutale: Madam Chairperson, I will not take much time. I fully support the budget.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Madam Chairperson, I want to thank all those who have contributed to the debate on the Floor. I take note of the hon. Members’ concern regarding the low funding to the Office of the Auditor-General.

Madam Chairperson, let me now address some of the issues that were raised in the debates. The Government is doing a lot to revamp the Office of the Auditor-General. For example, it is currently present in all the ten provinces. Auditors auditing the districts are stationed at the provincial centres to ensure transparency and accountability in the spending of Government resources throughout the country. With the enactment of the Public Finance Management Act, 2018, the Government has constituted a committee chaired by the Secretary to the Cabinet which oversees the process through which institutions deal with audit issues. As a result, a number of issues were resolved. Hence, the Auditor-General’s final report is a result of the remaining unresolved issues and not that it was watered down.

Madam Chairperson, the Office of the Auditor-General is an independent office which gets no interference from the Government. This is a fact. It can be proved by hon. Members visiting the office to ascertain whether this statement is true or not. This lack of interference is in line with Article 250 of the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Act, 2016, where the mandate of the Auditor-General is stated.

Additionally, the Office of the Auditor-General has been granted Treasury authority to recruit seventy-eight auditors for the creation of the Local Authority Auditing Directorate. There were thirty-nine positions that were frozen. The positions have been unfrozen, which means the capacity of the Office of the Auditor-General will be strengthened.

Mr Kampyongo: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Madam Chairperson, this is a very important Government office. As Hon. Mbulakulima emphasised, it is a watchdog for the expenditure of public resources. Strengthening the institution is in the best interests of the Government. We will continue supporting the Office of the Auditor-General by ensuring that there is adequate personnel to undertake the activities in that office. I thank hon. Members for supporting the budget for this office.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Votes 07/01, 07/02, 07/03, 07/04, 07/05, 07/06, 07/07, 07/08, 07/09, 07/10, 07/22 and 07/23 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 08 ˗ (Cabinet Office ˗ Office of the President ˗ K277,022,459).

The Vice-President: Madam Chairperson, it is an honour to present the 2019 Budget Estimates in respect of the Office of the President – Cabinet Office.

Madam Chairperson, the Cabinet Office is the highest administrative office in the Public Service. It is charged with the responsibility of co-ordinating the effective implementation of Government policies, systems and procedures as well as monitoring and evaluating the overall performance of the Public Service for the efficient administration of the Government. Cabinet Office drives its mandate and functions from Article 176(1) of the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Act, 2016, Cap 1 of the Laws of Zambia. It operates directly under the Office of the President of the Republic of Zambia and comprises the following:

Office of the Secretary to the Cabinet;

Administration Division;

Management Division;

Policy Analysis and Co-ordination Division;

Office of the Former Presidents; and

Remuneration Division.

Madam Chairperson, in fulfilling its mandate, Cabinet Office is guided by the following mission:

“To secure the general efficiency and effectiveness of the Public Service.”

Madam Chairperson, in line with this mission and guided by the aspirations of the Seventh National Development Plan (7NDP), especially Pillar Five, which seeks to create a conducive governance environment for a diversified and inclusive economy, Cabinet Office will continue focusing on transforming the Public Service to be more responsive to the needs of the public. To this end, the office will ensure that systems and procedures are not only formulated but also implemented to secure the general efficiency and effectiveness of the Public Service.

Madam Chairperson, in 2019, some of the major programmes that Cabinet Office will undertake include the following:

General Administration

Madam Chairperson, under this programme, the major activities that will be undertaken are:

Public Affairs and Summit Meetings

Madam Chairperson, this programme is aimed at enabling the Presidency perform constitutional, Executive and other national duties. To this end, Cabinet Office will continue facilitating the President’s local and foreign travel. Cabinet Office will also facilitate the hosting and participation in summits and meetings both local and foreign. As the HouseouaswHouHouH might be aware, Zambia has assumed the Chairmanship of the Southern African Development Community (SADC) Organ on Politics, Defence and Security. Thus, Cabinet Office will ensure that the Presidency is efficiently and effectively facilitated to execute this role. This entails among other things, the timely availability of all the necessary requisites.

Support to Offices of the Former Presidents

Madam Chairperson, Cabinet Office will continue providing administrative and logistical support to the offices of the First President and Fourth President as well as its support services to the families of the Third President and Fifth President. This is pursuant to the provisions of the benefits of Former Presidents (Amendment) Act, 1998.

Support to the Former Freedom Fighters

Madam Chairperson, cognisant of the role played by freedom fighters in attaining the freedom we enjoy today, Cabinet Office has introduced a new activity to support the former freedom fighters. The activity is aimed at facilitating the development of a policy that will guide in managing the affairs of former freedom fighters.

State Functions

Madam Chairperson, Cabinet Office will continue to facilitate and organise State functions and the commemoration of national events in order to enable His Excellency the President perform his Executive and ceremonial duties.

Cabinet Meetings and Management of the Policy Process

Madam Chairperson, in a quest to attain our national aspirations of becoming a prosperous middle income country by 2030 without leaving anyone behind, Cabinet Office will continue to facilitate the conduct of Cabinet and Cabinet Committee Meetings. Additionally, the office will also co-ordinate the formulation of public policies as well as to monitor and evaluate the implementation of policies by the Government ministries and institutions.

Strategic Planning, Restructuring and Institutional Development

Madam Chairperson, to steer the Public Service to attain the desired levels of efficiency, Cabinet Office will continue to institutionalise strategic management and the use of the balanced scorecard. Therefore, in 2019, comprehensive institutional assessments and organisational restructuring programmes will be undertaken across the Public Service. This will be done to facilitate the effective restructuring of Government ministries and institutions for improved service delivery.

Performance Management System

Madam Chairperson, Cabinet Office will continue to enhance the existing management and accountability systems for public officials and institutions. Some of the existing systems such as the performance based contracts will be reviewed and rolled out to encourage high standards of performance by heads of Government institutions in order to ensure objectivity, fairness and transparency. In the same vein, service delivery charters will be rolled out in the Public Service and local governments to enhance accountability for performance.

Decentralisation Policy

Madam Chairperson, in line with the provision of the Constitution and the 7NDP, Cabinet Office will accelerate the implementation of the Decentralisation Policy. This is in an effort to create a conducive governance environment required for the attainment of a diversified and inclusive economy as per Pillar Five of the 7NDP. Thus, in 2019, efforts will be expended to ensure that all the devolved functions are expeditiously matched with the requisite human and financial resources.

Madam Chairperson, the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Act, 2016 provides for the establishment of the Emoluments Commission. However, the commission is yet to be operationalised. To this effect, a remuneration division aimed at rationalising, determining and harmonising salaries and conditions of service for State institutions has been created under Cabinet Office.

Madam Chairperson, in 2019, Cabinet Office will work on developing human capacity in remuneration management, forecast emoluments for State institutions for the period from 2020 to 2022 and rationalise and harmonise salaries and conditions of service in some State institutions to ensure equity, fairness and sustainability of emoluments.

Madam Chairperson, in 2018, Cabinet Office scored a number of successes, especially in areas such as: co-ordination of national events and State functions; facilitating the development and review of national policies; facilitating the review and development of institutional plans (balanced scorecards) and structures for various ministries; and implementation of the Decentralisation Policy and development of some tools and operational instruments for emoluments.

Madam Chairperson, in the face of austerity and budget consolidation measures, diligent efforts will be expended by Cabinet Office in ensuring full compliance to the measures by Public Service institutions as part of its oversight role and in facilitating the formulation and implementation of policies that will engender pro-poor growth, employment creation and sustainable human development without leaving anyone behind. This is in accordance with the aspirations of the Government as stated in the 7NDP and Vision 2030.

Madam Chairperson, the total 2019 budgetary allocation to Cabinet Office stands at K277 million of which K34 million has been allocated for personal emoluments while K240 million is earmarked for non-personal emoluments.

Madam Chairperson, Cabinet Office plays a pivotal role in the management of the Public Service and overall provision of policy direction to the nation. The funds being requested for in the 2019 Estimates of Expenditure will be necessary to enable Cabinet Office effectively execute its mandate. I, therefore, request the hon. Members of this august House to support these estimates.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: There are two names appearing on the screen and I will only allow these two to debate.

Mr Muchima: Madam Chairperson, thank you very much for allowing me to contribute to the debate on this Vote. Let me start with what is contained in the policy statement about coordinating Government activities effectively. I am a bit worried with the efficiency of the Government at the moment. I do not know where things have gone wrong. I would like to support this Vote, but I have question marks in certain areas regarding the wastage of public resources. In this vein, I hope Her Honour the Vice-President will take my concerns on the behaviour and activities of District Commissioners (DCs) seriously because we are talking about employing austerity measures in the use of Government funds.

Madam Chairperson, under normal circumstances, the DCs are supposed to be pure civil servants employed to superintend over the functions of the Civil Service at district level. However, the Office of the DC has been turned into a political tool. The DCs do not even stay in their offices. They are forever travelling out of the districts, especially during by-elections. Most of the time, they come to Lusaka in the name of lobbying. I do not know about other provinces, but where I come from, the DCs do not sit in their offices. The people are complaining that they do not even know what the DCs do.

Madam Chairperson, we have been talking about decentralisation in this country for some time now. However, we still have a council chairperson and DC at the district level. The functions of these two offices are clashing. We do not even know who is supposed to be in charge of what. This has rendered the DCs to have no job in the district. As a result, their job is just to wander about.

Madam Chairperson, since this Government has been calling on the Opposition to work with it and to attend Government functions, let me talk about something which has been happening in my district. During Independence Day celebrations, the DCs do not allow people from Opposition political parties to be part and parcel of the activities. I will give an example in this regard. I sent money to my district recently when I was invited to sponsor a football match. However, the DC in the area refused to accept the money because it came from an hon. Opposition Member of Parliament and even ordered the civil servants there not to accept it. How do we work together? Is this the function of the DC? The DC is supposed to coordinate things at the district level. It is such DCs who are causing problems in this country. They are different from the DCs we knew in the colonial era. The DC is supposed to be a co-ordinator and mirror of the behaviour of the Permanent Secretary (PS) or even the President.

Madam Chairperson, the DCs of today are pure cadres. That is why I am saying that we are wasting money on employing them. The vehicles that have been bought for them are not benefitting the districts. They are only being used for the benefit of the PF. The DCs are ever driving those vehicles. I do not even know where they get the money for fuel when we are failing to pay allowances and salaries of civil servants on time. The DCs have money to move from Kasempa, Mwinilunga and Ikeleng’i every day. They are ever on the road. Where do they get the money to do that? Why are they always here in Lusaka to lobby when there are PSs in the provinces?

Madam Chairperson, I think we need to review our strategy if we have to achieve decentralisation in Zambia. More research needs to be carried out on this matter. As things stand, it just seems like a pipe dream. When we look at how councils are spending public funds, there is no accountability. Therefore, why should they be given more responsibilities if they cannot account for the little resources they are getting at the moment? What will happen if their scope of responsibility is expanded?

Madam Chairperson, these are the things which Cabinet Office needs to address. A Government department should be tasked to research these issues and thereafter advise on what should be done to address the situation. For instance, look at the problems we have at the Zambia Institute of Advanced Legal Education (ZIALE). In a certain year, about 318 law students passed the examinations at this institute. The following year, the pass rate drastically reduced. What happened? Is it –

Mr Lubinda: You are now talking about ZIALE?

Mr Muchima: Yes, I am talking about ZIALE. This falls under the Policy Analysis and Co-ordination Division. I am not talking about an entity under the Ministry of Justice. There should be research to find out what is happening regarding such matters. That is the function of the Government. The Government should investigate what is happening regarding such matters. If our colleagues across do not see these issues as important, I want to let them know that there are serious complaints in society over such things. This is the first time in the history of Zambia that the Government has dismissed so many civil servants without reason. One day, somebody called Habasimbi, Habambota or Muchima will just wake up and find that they have been dismissed without reason. Some people cannot even mention their names for fear of being dismissed because of being labelled as officers who are associated with opposition political parties.

Madam Chairperson, this should change. Let us be very objective when dealing with national issues. Tomorrow, our colleagues will not be in office. How will they feel when their children or grandchildren will be treated like that? We must be mindful about leaving a legacy.

Cabinet Office is supposed to be there for everyone in Zambia. It should co-ordinate how things are done. It should look at the welfare of everyone. It should not favour one side. The Government has got it wrong. The donors do not favour Zambia anymore because of what is happening in this country. Let us be cautious of how we manage the affairs of this country. There should be monitoring and evaluation attached to every job.

Madam Chairperson, the Government has said that most of the Budget goes to personnel emoluments and very little remains for other activities. So, why are DCs being entertained? What job do they do? Remove these people from the service because they have no function. We do not need them. We cannot miss them. Even if you removed the DC from Ikeleng’i, I would not miss him at all. What service is he offering? Remove them from the Public Service. These are the excesses which we need to talk about. Let us have qualified personnel. Let us promote them. Let us not attach tribe or party to people. Let us look at their contributions. This Government has brought in a culture which is totally wrong in this country whereby it looks at the tribe of a person and not what the person is offering. Let us change the mindset of leadership, and this should begin with Cabinet Office. The general administration of Cabinet Office should change.

Madam Chairperson, the Government should have been worried after hearing that the status of universities in Zambia has been downgraded. We should have heard a ministerial statement here about this issue. All these years, our education was reflective of the character of Zambia, but today, it has been downgraded. Zambian degrees out there are now regarded as cheap. This should worry us. It is the responsibility of Cabinet Office to coordinate such issues. This is a serious matter which should not just be left in the hands of the mother ministry. This should be a Cabinet Office issue. Cabinet Office should give directives and report to Cabinet over this matter.

Madam Chairperson, how do we determine the overall performance of the Government? Today, I can tell you that there is no policy direction in this country. Anyone can do whatever he/she wants. The rules and lines are supposed to be straight. A cadre in Zambia has taken centre stage because he is the most important person. We have missed it. We have lost it. This Government should compare itself with the Kaunda Administration, Chiluba Administration, Mwanawasa Administration and Banda Administration. How is it doing? Is it doing much better than the past administrations? Is it offering Zambians a better service? These are the issues we should be looking at, and not who is supporting who. Every Zambian has a party they support. In my family, Muchima Family, some people are Patriotic Front (PF) members. I cannot stop them from being members of that party. Even when I was in the Government, I used to entertain those of you who were not serving in the Government. I never stopped people from having meetings, but now, when people ask to play a football match to celebrate an event, a ka DC says no, you have to get a police permit. The police end up saying that you cannot play the match because it is sponsored by the Opposition. The Government says that we need to work together, but those in it have allowed such cheap politics at that level. A ka DC is controlling things, yet other people in the Ruling Party are pleading –

The Chairperson: Hon. Muchima, the DC is simply the District Commissioner.

Mr Muchima: Okay, the DC. These people are not courteous and do not observe protocol. The Government should research about these things if it wants us to have a good relationship. We should be learning. I was happy one time when I saw Her Honour the Vice-President in England talking about the importance of education. Let us look at how orderly the administration in England is and how decentralisation is implemented compared to the Zambian arrangement. Here, it is a taka taka arrangement. Taka kata has no basis. It is only for ngwangwazis at bus stations. The Government has allowed some individuals at bus stations to do whatever they want to the extent of harassing people in any manner they want. If the Government is comfortable with that, I am sorry, I am not. People are agitated at the moment. They are not very uncomfortable with what is happening. I will talk and talk about things. We need to have sound policies. I am talking here to help those who are in Government govern properly. I am talking because I have worked at certain levels as a civil servant before. I have compared and seen a mismatch between whatever is happening and what used to happen. Those in Government do not listen, and that is why there are problems here and there. That is why we have the Zambia Institute of Advanced Legal Education (ZIALE) issue.

Mr Muchima pointed at Mr Lubinda.

Mr Muchima: I am pointing at you because you are interfering with me.

The Chairperson: No, no. Debate through the Chair.

Mr Muchima: Madam Chairperson, protect me. The hon. Minister of Justice keeps interfering with my mouth.

Laughter

Mr Muchima: Let me also look at him.

Madam Chairperson, I am appealing to Her Honour the Vice-President to, for a change, look at governance issues. We have complained and complained. We have talked and talked. We are human beings. Even if they are in charge, they should learn to listen to us to see where they have gone wrong. If they fail to do that, they will not deliver proper services to the Zambian people. Time for change will be coming. They will see the value of what I am talking about. If the Government will listen to my contribution and look at the DCs as an excess of Government expenditure, then I will be very happy and will support that.

Madam Chairperson, I thank you very much for giving me this opportunity.

I thank you, Madam.

Dr Kopulande (Chembe): Madam Chairperson, thank you very much for giving me an opportunity to make a contribution to the debate which is on the Floor.

Madam Chairperson, when I debated last week, I said that the Civil Service is the tool for the Government’s service delivery and that, therefore, it must always be at its best when delivering the programmes of the Government in office, having been elected by the people through a multi-party democratic system. Therefore, the Civil Service is critical to the delivery of services for the Government which is in office at any given point in time.

Madam Chairperson, the efficiency of the Civil Service depends on the leadership that is provided by the seat of Government, which is what is called Cabinet Office. Cabinet Office is the secretariat for the President. Cabinet Office is the policy implementation wing or arm of the Government in office. Therefore, for the Government to deliver its promises to the people, it needs an efficient Cabinet Office that will then supervise all the other arms of the Government to ensure that the Government policies are implemented so that the people of Zambia are serviced as promised. .

Madam Chairperson, any failure, therefore, at the level of Cabinet Office, is a failure of Government. No matter the good intentions of a president or party in power as well as Government programme, an inefficient Cabinet Office leads to an inefficient Civil Service and failure of the Government.

Madam Chairperson, let me remind my colleagues here of what I was told and which I still believe that whatever the President says is policy. The President’s arm to implement the policies must be Cabinet Office. Thus, Cabinet Office must always be sensitive to follow up on whatever the President says.

Madam Chairperson, when I came to this House in 2016, the President came to this House on 30^th September and made certain policy pronouncements. To what extent have those policy pronouncements been implemented today?

Madam Chairperson, on page 28, paragraph 75 of the President’s Opening Speech to this House, the President said that the Government was going to establish a tourism organisation under the Industrial Development Corporation (IDC) in order to promote tourism. How far are we in the execution of that policy pronouncement?

Madam Chairperson, in the same speech, on page 39, paragraph 102, the President talked about the establishment of one youth resettlement scheme in each province so as to ensure that the youths are given the necessary kits for them to take part in agriculture. How far have we gone? How many such youth resettlement schemes have been established?

Madam Chairperson, let me re-emphasise that the Civil Service can make a good President look bad. The Civil Service can make a good Government look bad. This is the role of the Cabinet Office. Obviously, Cabinet Office is not the actual implementer. It is the co-ordinator.

Mr Muchima: Yes!

Dr Kopulande: Madam Chairperson, once a policy pronouncement is made, Cabinet Office takes it up and goes to the responsible ministry to ask the Permanent Secretary (PS) if he or she is aware of that particular pronouncement and its implementation programme. That is the co-ordination and supervisory role that Cabinet Office provides. We need to review some of these things. This is why issues to do with sabotage in the Civil Service are extremely important to any Government in office. Cabinet Office needs to ensure that we have a committed Civil Service that will deliver on the programmes of the Government. There should be no compromise on that principle.

Madam Chairperson, when I joined the Civil Service, we were told that protocol is the lifeblood of the Government. Without it, the Government collapses. Today, protocol is non-existent. The office responsible for the implementation of protocol is Cabinet Office.

Madam Chairperson, today, a Member of Parliament does not count, as far as the Civil Service is concerned. When I entered the Civil Service as PS, I was told that a Minister or Member of Parliament elected by the people shall not wait outside your door. He must be attended to on arrival. Today, when you go to see a PS, the secretary will tell you to sit and wait for thirty to forty minutes as a Member of Parliament elected by the people.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kopulande: Madam Chairperson, there is a basic order of precedence and principles in the Commonwealth. I hope that on Wednesday at State House, we learnt a lot from the order of precedence that President Emmerson Mnangagwa gave when he opened his speech. I recommend that all staff at Cabinet Office go and read that speech to see the order of precedence. That is the Commonwealth standard. Cabinet Ministers and Members of Parliament, that is how it goes. Today, when you, as Member of Parliament, go to a function, the people will not even know you are there. Even if they see you, they will still ignore you. They will, instead, recognise the mayor and council chairman.

Dr Kambwili: And the District Commissioner.

Dr Kopulande: Madam Chairperson, the cause of this problem was addressed by your Committee on Cabinet Affairs. On page 34 of its report which was presented to this House, your Committee states that:

“Your Committee further recommends that the Government, through the Office of the Secretary to the Cabinet should consider revisiting Cabinet Office Circular No. 13 of 2016 which places Members of Parliament below civic leaders in the order of precedence. Your Committee is of the view that the Circular has contributed to the disregard for parliamentary work as has been exhibited by senior Civil Servants.”

Madam Chairperson, when I was in the Civil Service as well as when I went to school to study management, I was told that when your boss or senior asks you to consider doing something, that is a directive given in polite terms. How far has Cabinet Office gone in reconsidering that Cabinet Office Circular No. 13 of 2016?

Madam Chairperson, what contributed to the efficiency of the Civil Service was an institution called the National Institute of Public Administration (NIPA) where all civil servants were trained in the rules and regulations of the service. Does that happen today? I wonder if it does. I hear that Cabinet Office is now trying to establish a school of governance when we already have an institution that was established for that purpose. Why should a school of governance be established? That is probably a good idea, but I have my own questions. The training and retraining of civil servants as well as the process of ensuring that before promotion in the Civil Service, one must write and pass an exam must be revisited and brought back to guide the civil servants. We need an efficient Civil Service. We need a Civil Service that will deliver. We need a Civil Service that is patriotic. The leaking of serious confidential Government documentation and examination papers is a demonstration of a break down in the Civil Service.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kopulande: Madam Chairperson, the order has broken down. We need to take this seriously and seal all the loopholes that have made our civil servants disregard their oath of office and also lose focus on the need to ensure that they deliver the services to our people.

Mr Muchima: Quality!

Dr Kopulande: Madam Chairperson, there is no compromise, there can be no compromise and there should be no compromise. Failure to get the Civil Service to work again is not an option.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Madam Chairperson, ...

Business was suspended from 1810 hours until 1830 hours.

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

The Vice-President: Madam Chairperson, I wish to thank the hon. Members who have debated in support of the Vote for Cabinet Office. As Hon. Muchima stated, Cabinet Office, indeed, ensures the general efficiency of the Public Service. A number of issues were raised in the debate and I wish to respond to some.

Madam Chairperson, the roles of the District Commissioners (DCs) and other civic leaders are well articulated in Cabinet circulars. The DCs’ office is the centre of Central Government at district level. The 2019 Budget has proposed the establishment of a specialised research department to further enhance policy co-ordination across the entire Public Service.

Madam Chairperson, I thank Hon. Dr Kopulande for his appreciation of the crucial role of Cabinet Office, by especially emphasising on the need for the civil servants to be loyal to the Government of the day. The Secretary to the Cabinet monitors the performance of all the Permanent Secretaries through a discussion of their targets and contracts. To ensure a harmonised Public Service, quarterly meetings are held where the Secretary to the Cabinet discusses various programmes and presidential pronouncements. The Government has prepared guidelines on State and official functions which clearly outline the national order of precedence on protocol.

Madam Chairperson, lastly, the PF Government will consider the Report of the Public Accounts Committee to ensure that its recommendations are positively considered.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Votes 08/01 and 08/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 08/03 – (Cabinet Office – Office of the President – Common Services Accounting Unit – Nil).

The Chairperson: Her Honour the Vice-President, can we have an explanation for the missing department total.

The Minister in the Office of the Vice-President (Ms Chalikosa): Madam Chairperson, Head 08/03 – Common Services Accounting Unit – Nil, has been transformed into a Finance Department and is now part of Head 08/11.

I thank you, Madam.

Vote 08/03 and 08/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 08/05 – (Office of the President – Reform Co-ordination Division – Nil).

The Chairperson: Her Honour the Vice-President, is there an explanation for the missing department total?

Ms Chalikosa: Madam Chairperson, Head 08/05 has been abolished and has since been moved to the Ministry of National Development and Planning.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Votes 08/05, 08/06, 08/07, 08/08 and 08/11 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 09 – (Teaching Service Commission – Office of the President – K8,497,760).

The Vice-President: Madam Chairperson, I wish to thank you for according me the opportunity to present this year’s Estimates of Expenditure for the Teaching Service Commission for the year 2019.

Madam Chairperson, the Teaching Service Commission is one of the service commissions in Zambia established under Section 223 of the Constitution and draws its mandate from the Service Commission’s Act, 2016. Among other functions, the commission is mandated to recruit, appoint, confirm, hear and determine appeal cases, and also, to provide an oversight role on human resource cases.

Madam Chairperson, it should, however, be noted that the commission works hand in hand with the Ministry of General Education whose role is to provide secretariat services by making recommendations to the commission regarding the processing of human resources cases.

During the year under review, the Teaching Service Commission undertook the following:

attended to human resource cases,

held meetings with provincial education officers (PEOs) and district education board secretaries (DEBs) from Lusaka Province, Central Province, the Southern Province, North-Western Province, Western Province and Copperbelt Province. The purpose of the meetings was to deliberate on the performance of the learners, leadership and management in the education sector;

worked with other stakeholders to conduct capacity building meetings in the ten provinces for senior staff on the following topics;

terms and conditions of service;

disciplinary code for handling offences in the Public Service;

the code of ethics for the Public Service and teachers;

insight into school leadership and management trends; and

developing positive work attitudes;

regarding Phase I of decentralisation in Chibombo District, sensitisation meetings were conducted for teachers being transferred to the local authority and also registers were updated for all the teachers to be transferred;

a strategic plan of the Teaching Service Commission is being developed and is expected to be completed by December, 2018;

the Teaching Service Commission has started the process of recruiting teachers for this year. In order to effectively perform its functions, the Teaching Service Commission requires transport, operational funds and adequate staff. To this effect, the commission created a new organisational structure for the secretariat which has since been approved by Cabinet Office, but it is yet to be given Treasury authority. The cost implication of the structure is K5,274,769.10 indicating an increase of K1,018,875.10 from the current structure whose cost is K4,255,894.

Madam Chairperson, you may wish to note that the Teaching Service Commission is the largest employer with a workforce of 107,947 employees, yet its budget allocation is low. In line with decentralisation, the commission will facilitate the formation of human resources management committees in districts and selected schools and conduct capacity building meetings. The commission will continue undertaking monitoring and evaluation meetings to check the compliance levels in the processing of human resource cases. To achieve equity and fairness in the provision of education services, the commission will finalise the formulation of promotion and teacher redeployment guidelines.

Madam Chairperson, I now present the 2019 Budget Estimate for the Teaching Service Commission amounting to K80,497,760 with a decrease of K1,178,000 from the year under review, 2018.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): I thank you, Madam Chairperson for this opportunity to speak and I thank Her Honour the Vice-President for the policy statement on the Teaching Service Commission.

Madam Chairperson, very briefly, I would like to say that one would be a fool not to support a budget line like this one. This is because we heard a long time ago that the destruction of a nation is no longer by weapons such as guns, teargas and bombs, but the mere dislocation of an education system. If an education system is dislocated, it means you are anticipating a nation that will eventually perish. If one thinks that education is too expensive, that person should attempt ignorance and then he/she will understand what I am talking about.

Madam Chairperson, this commission is entrusted with a very serious responsibility. I listened to Her Honour the Vice-President very carefully. This commission sits in Lusaka. It is responsible for the placement and absorption of teachers throughout the country. It would have been very interesting to understand from the policy statement of Her Honour the Vice-President, how the entire existing establishment of the education system is against the requirement.

Madam Chairperson, the pupil-teacher ratio in our country has been one of the major compromises in the quality of education that we offer our people. It is a very serious matter and I am sure that the Teaching Service Commission is inhibited by resources. We hear year in year out that the Government is now going to absorb so many teachers, but the question one asks is how many teachers actually graduate from colleges of education at primary school level and, maybe, even at early childhood development level? How many teachers are churned out from the primary education teaching colleges, the secondary education teaching colleges and other tertiary education teaching facilities in our country against the requirement of the establishment?

Many a time, Madam Chairperson, we find that when graduates finish school, some of them with flying colours, distinctions, merits and credits, they end up just on the street because they cannot get jobs. I think it is the Government’s square responsibility to ensure that we have classroom space for the teachers who come out so as to match the ratio of children who need this education.

Madam Chairperson, we have schools in 2018 that will have 600 pupils and, maybe, just fifteen teachers. That is a fact. We need to work together to make sure that we have the standard of education that some of us received during our time. At the time, we had a pupil-teacher ratio at a maximum of one teacher to thirty children. The teachers had an average contact with a child of a certain number of minutes in a forty-minute classroom lesson. In a classroom that has a pupil-teacher ratio of one teacher to seventy children whose formative stage is in infancy, it becomes very difficult for that teacher to ensure that he/she has the contact that is required to make sure that some children are not left behind in their growth. That is an area that the Teaching Service Commission must look at. I think its operations should be somewhat decentralised. I am not sure whether this has happened yet but, at least, the commission should broaden its presence in provincial centres to assist the people sitting at the top – I do not even know how many commissioners there are, but the last time I checked, they were ten – to ensure that all the human resource requirements for schools are catered for.

Madam Chairperson, a lot of our teachers are still going outside this country to look for jobs. They are not going for greener pastures, but just for jobs to be able to survive. A lot of teachers have gone to work in private schools, some of them with dodgy credentials. I am not quite sure if the Teaching Service Commission superintends over the teachers in private schools whose credentials I doubt in my mind.

Madam Chairperson, there is also the issue of appraising teachers who are already absorbed in the establishment. I know that the commission is responsible for transfers and promotions. However, how effective can it be when it sits at the top and appraises a teacher who sits in Kaputa, Muyombe, Kazungula or Shang’ombo? I think that is a mammoth task. It is a big task and half the time, I would imagine that those who conduct the appraisal miss the target. If they miss the target, it means that teachers who have potential to grow in the profession, – I must declare that I am a teacher of English – in order to assist the education system one day in the future will remain at the base of the education strata to the detriment of the development of our education system.

Madam Chairperson, as you can observe, I am speaking a little bit differently today because I have a passion for education. I have a lot of passion for education. If there is something on which I can agree to work with the Patriotic Front (PF), this one alone stands out. I can work with it in this area because I know that once we are gone, posterity will judge us collectively on how we managed to succeed or fail in the education sector.

I heard from the policy statement that the hon. Minister of General Education works hand in hand with the commission. The ministry provides, I heard, the secretariat. So, it must be part and parcel of the appraisal of teachers.

Madam Chairperson, there is an issue that we also have to look at collectively. This is the issue of promotions, especially with people who are – I am trying to be careful in saying what I am about to say – differently abled in the education sector. You know we have the Zambia Association for People with Disabilities (ZAPD). In ZAPD, we also have education for people who are blind and deaf. I think that we must pay particular attention to this area because there will be people who are talented, but with these challenges. I am speaking about the realities of life. If you go and check, you will find that whenever promotions are effected, many a time, they do not even look at those people who teach special needs children such as those who teach the blind who use braille and those who teach the deaf who use sign language. By and large, we do not even take care of those who teach those who are extremely slow learners.

Madam Chairperson, I think that the Teaching Service Commission requires to put more effort in incentivising and ensuring that these people are given some sort of an advantage because they belong to the minority group. It would be nice to see that there is a lecturer for the blind or for the deaf at one of the highest institutions of learning. I think that this is an area that the Teaching Service Commission, with that small budget that it has been given, should be able to focus on.

Madam Chairperson, in this country, we had a man who ascended at one point to become a Cabinet Minister. He was in this House, Hon. Lazarus Tembo, may his soul rest in peace. How did he ascend to that position? Could it have been magical? No! It was by the simple and deliberate intention of the Government then that was led by Dr Kenneth Kaunda, who nominated him, made him an hon. Member of Parliament (MP) and hon. Minister. That alone just motivates people with different abilities. When you go and check the record, you will find that the performance of Hon. Lazarus Tembo was exemplary, at least, in the course of discharging his duty as a legislator and also as an hon. Minister.

Madam Chairperson, there is so much that can be said about this commission. I will end by just making a comment on what Her Honour the Vice-President mentioned regarding the issue of discipline and ethics. She touched on this in her policy statement.

Madam Chairperson, we have a challenge teaching profession just as we have in the Zambia Police Service. We have a country that is made of teachers and policemen who are just drunkards, that is people who take alcohol in excess of the body’s requirement. The teachers go to teach with munzuwe, a hangover.

Madam Chairperson, we have cases whereby teachers have been accused and some found guilty of ukujata bana.

The Chairperson: Some of them. Hon. Nkombo, not all.

Mr Nkombo: Of course, I should not make a blanket condemnation of the teachers.

Hon. PF Member: In Mazabuka.

Mr Nkombo: Mazabuka is just a district and for him who does not appreciate this debate that I am giving free of charge, there is a hospital next door on the Great East Road, because I am making sense.

Madam Chairperson, the issue of discipline and ethics is also a toll order for the commission because it actually needs to check that teachers do not misbehave and exchange examination papers with small girl children for sex. We hear these stories in the communities that we live in. We hear of teachers who take advantage of pretty young girls. Children are destroyed. This is why I am thinking that the commission must extend its tentacles to ensure that it knows what is going on on the ground at every given time in the execution of its duties. These are real things. When there are teenage pregnancies and you ask who is responsible, niba teacher. Sometimes, they even decide to conceal all these vices. The commission requires to be capacitated a bit more than what its strength is today. Otherwise, it will just be a shell of a small group of people superintending over a large number of citizens in the education and teaching service. Madam Vice-President, I am sure you have heard what I have said. I extend my hand to you and your Government to ensure that we get things right, at least, in this area where it is within our ability to change. The issues about money being stolen, we might not address together, but this issue about harnessing the education sector so that people can get the best out of the education system, can be achieved.

Madam Chairperson, those who have ears have heard. I want to thank you for the opportunity.

Ms Chonya (Kafue): Madam Chairperson, thank you for allowing me to contribute to the debate which is on the Floor. I want to share a few thoughts on this debate concerning the Teaching Service Commission. As it has been indicated in the policy statement, this is a commission under the Office of the President which is responsible for the employment of teachers in this country. We have also heard from the policy statement that the Government is developing a new strategy which will be in place by the end of this year. I just wanted to take advantage of that to say that this new strategy which is being developed will be very meaningful for the teachers if it includes strategies on how staff accommodation for teachers will be improved.

Madam Chairperson, you may be aware that I am just returning from Chiawa where the issue of staff accommodation is very critical. We have schools there like Chitende High School and Gotagota Secondary School which are Government schools built in recent years, but without any staff accommodation. So, that new strategy will do well to take into account that very important aspect. This is the situation for most of our schools. I am also aware that in the new Government policy, when a school is built, the plan is to complement it with staff accommodation. However, the situation is still dire for those schools that were built before this particular policy was put in place.

Madam Chairperson, the work of the Teaching Service Commission involves teachers. I must acknowledge the debate that was offered by the Leader of the Opposition and also the hon. Member for Mazabuka Central last week when they solemnly debated the levels of victimisation of some of the members of staff in the Public Service which includes the teachers. I am referring to this new animal of retiring people in national interest, sometimes, on grounds that are now perceived to be linked to issues of tribalism.

Madam Chairperson, this is a debate that I am also sad to make. In the past, I have actually avoided the tribalism debate because I never wanted to talk about tribes. I felt that the more you talk about a problem perhaps, the more room you give it to thrive. However, at the end of the day with much person conviction, I thought that this challenge of tribalism is just as ugly as when men used to discriminate against women. The women had to stand up and speak out. Then people started talking about gender equality. Tribalism is just as ugly as racism. It took people to stand up and condemn racism. That is why today, we can live in harmony whether black or white.

So, when we are talking about tribalism, Madam Chairperson, it means there is a problem in the country which we must acknowledged. We talk about it not to propel it but, instead, to make the powers that be, especially the Presidency, know that it exists. It is the Presidency that has the responsibility to play a role in national building. It is the Presidency under which this commission falls that has the mandate to ensure that its people live in harmony while working without fear.

Madam Chairperson, I have talked about my recent visit to Chiawa. In fact, I have just come from Chiawa. I am sure the whole nation watched on television how a lot of politicking came in. The Presidency needs to control the level of cadreism otherwise we are not letting that office operate in a manner that it should in terms of building the nation.

Madam Chairperson, the President’s message was very good with regard to the Keep Zambia Clean, Green and Healthy Campaign. In Kafue, in particular, we have been cleaning up even before the encouragement that we got from the President. What was very wrong about it was to allow an hon. Member of Parliament who even though is not that popular in their constituency −

The Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Chonya, debate the Budget.

We are considering Teaching Service Commission. Please, continue with your debate.

Princess Kucheka: Ema Permanent Secretary aya!

Ms Chonya: Madam Chairperson thank you for your guidance. Indeed, I was getting carried away because I was so alarmed at the level of politicisation over some issues. The point I was getting at is that during a noble visit to my constituency, I carried along some books that were donated by a well wisher to help the teachers who are employed under the Teaching Service Commission with reference materials which they lack. The books were intended for use in schools, but because of politicisation of issues, the schools were instructed not to receive these books. So, how are the teachers going to offer quality education if they are going to be guided on what donations they can receive?

Madam Chairperson, if it was parliamentary, I was going to say, indeed, this was a shameful development. I think this is much more than it was put when the hon. Member of Parliament was not available for a cleaning exercise which in any case she has been participating in ever since that declaration was made.

The Chairperson: You have gone back.

Mrs Chonya: Again.

The Chairperson: I guided you, Hon. Chonya.

Ms Chonya: I will come back.

Madam Chairperson, let me talk about corruption. I must commend the Teaching Service Commission for coming up with a deliberate guideline that it is going to recruit only those teachers who graduated and have not been employed since 2015. It is good that it has come up with this particular criterion because it will help, to some extent, to deal with the corruption that has characterised the recruitment of teachers whereby we have seen teachers that completed their training much later being recruited in the system instead of those that finished earlier. So, this is a good move which should be encouraged so that there is equity and fairness in the way that these teachers are recruited.

Madam Chairperson, the new strategy will do well if it can assist teachers, especially those that are married, but are forced to live apart. This is something that has become common in our days. If there is a way that this can be addressed among teachers, I think it will go a long way in helping them provide a better service to the communities which they serve because from time to time teachers are forced to leave their stations to visit their families. In remote parts of the country like Chiawa, teachers have to move away from their station for many days to go and receive their salaries. So, the new strategy will do well to address such concerns.

Madam Chairperson, the issue of staff appraisal, I think I have mentioned in this House before. The results of a study which observed that some pupils in community schools where you find teachers that are not trained do well in our national examinations. In some cases, the pupils in community schools have done better than those in Government schools where there are well trained teachers. This tells us something about how teachers in public education institutions deliver their services. Thus, there is need for staff appraisals to be effectively undertaken so that teachers are held accountable for the results that are delivered at the end of the day. Of course, this should not make them so desperate to the point of getting involved in examination leakages as it happened recently, and which I consider a national disaster. However, since investigations were done, and I understand some teams were sent on the ground, I hope we will not have a recurrence of high level malpractices that we have witnessed. When I wanted to go to Chiawa, I was told that some people would be on ground investigating the leakages. However, I did not understand how my visit as a Member of Parliament would have interfered with that since I just wanted to find out the welfare of teachers and other workers in Chiawa. Since I was not there at the clinic, I do not know why …

Interruptions

Ms Chonya: … that was used to shame the Member of Parliament. Nevertheless, in conclusion, I would like to say that let us deal with national issues seriously and not abuse the Presidency to politic in a constituency.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: I would like to urge those hon. Members who will debate after Hon. Chonya to, please, focus on the debate on the Floor. It concerns the Budget. If there are other issues, we can deal with them another time. The avenue of questions is still available. You can still file in questions. Otherwise, we will lose focus.

Ms Katuta (Chienge): Madam Chairperson, I thank you for allowing the people of Chienge to add a voice to the proposed budget for the Teaching Service Commission which deals with teachers. The basis of development in any country goes with teaching. However, we have a challenge with the deployment of teachers, but I am glad that those who graduated in 2015 will be recruited. I hope the commission will not employ by the years. The year which someone graduated should not matter. If someone graduated this year or some years back, the commission should employ that person. The concerns about the Teaching Service Commission should be taken seriously. This institution should not be a rubber stamp. I say so because of the manner we have been experiencing examination malpractices. I believe this is a sign of a failed education system. I would like to know what the Teaching Service Commission will do about this so that we do not carry this shame continuously. This was in the media. The whole world knows that the education system in Zambia has failed. This is because of the quality of the teachers that we have. If the teachers were capable of executing their duties as is needed, I do not think we would have experienced what we experienced.

Madam Chairperson, I was among the first people to write the Grades 9 and 12 examinations when they were introduced by the Government. We never experienced examination leakages. Previously, the Cambridge International Examinations would be prepared in London and the results would be published in the newspaper. We had a quality education system which made people have confidence in our education system. However, we have a challenge with the way the Teaching Service Commission employs teachers. Let me give an example of some teachers in Chienge who graduated as far back as 2013 and 2014. They have not been employed. The teachers were told that they cannot be employed because they have diplomas.

Madam Chairperson, there should be equality in the employment of teachers in line with what the President talks about when he says that no one should be left behind. The Government should then suggest that no teacher gets a diploma so that they can all get degrees. However, some teachers with certificates are upgrading their qualifications so that they can obtain diplomas and later, degrees. This is because there is no way somebody with a certificate can straight away study for a degree. So, the Teaching Service Commission should look into this issue seriously in order to help our nation.

Madam Chairperson, the reason some teachers are forging their qualifications is that they feel left out. Some people who graduated in 2013 at the University of Zambia (UNZA) have still not been employed. However, the records show that those who finished Grade 12 in 1990 and obtained their UNZA certificates in 1988 have been employed. One wonders why that is the case. Therefore, I expect the Teaching Service Commission to crack the whip. As employers, they should fire those that forged their papers, but nothing has been done about it. It is a criminal offence for one to forge Government documents. However, those who did this only had their salaries frozen, but they now get their salaries, and I do not even know whether they are back in the system.

Madam Chairperson, I wonder why the Teaching Service Commission promotes somebody to the position of head or senior teacher when the position is frozen. Somebody is transferred from Mtendere Primary School to another school in Ngwerere knowing very well that the position is frozen. This is frustrating and one does not expect that teacher to perform to his/her best ability. Furthermore, somebody is transferred from here in Lusaka to be deputy head in Chienge and when he/she gets there, he/she is told that that position is frozen. The Teaching Service Commission is supposed to do its homework before transferring anyone. It should not just transfer somebody because he/she is perceived not to be loyal to the Government.

Madam Chairperson, let me give an example of two teachers in Chienge. Will you allow me to mention their names?

Hon. Government Members: No!

The Chairperson: No. I will not allow you to mention their names.

Ms Katuta: These teachers campaign openly using their vehicles.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Ms Katuta: Aah! The teachers campaign for the Patriotic Front (PF) openly. I have a video.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Ms Katuta: You can say question because you do not have the facts. I have the facts. We are here to talk about facts.

Interruptions

Ms Katuta: Even if they say question, it remains true that the teachers are being used to campaign. This time around, a policeman was beaten in Chienge because he was campaigning. People said that because he was campaigning, then, he was a cadre. So, they said they would start doing the same thing to teachers.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Katuta: Madam Chairperson, I have been expecting the Teaching Service Commission to crack the whip on such teachers. I wonder if the Teaching Service Commission is also an extension of the Patriotic Front (PF) …

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Ms Katuta: … because it is not doing things the way they are supposed to be done.

Interruptions

Ms Katuta: Madam Chairperson, regardless of the commissioners being appointed by His Excellency the President, they are supposed to be neutral and professional. The commission is supposed to execute its work diligently without partiality.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Ms Katuta: Madam Chairperson, any teacher who speaks to the hon. Member of Parliament for Chienge is perceived to be in support of the Opposition. It, therefore, means that such a teacher is going to be in trouble. Where is the Teaching Service Commission and why is it not defending these teachers? Instead, we see people campaigning and carrying the PF materials openly without being disciplined. Where are we going because this is quite demoralising for other teachers? When they go to schools, they do not do anything, but just wait for their pay day.

Madam Chairperson, for some teachers in the rural areas to get their salaries, they have to travel for about six hours, especially if they are using the Chienge/Kashikishi Road because the road is in a bad state. So, when they go to get their salaries, they go for good leaving our children without being attended to. If one goes to Chienge, they would find that there is a school called Chikubi. At that school, there is only the headmaster and one teacher teaching the whole school from Grade 1 to Grade 7?

Madam Chairperson, those who are posted there from urban areas fail to stand the environment and instead, come back. So, where is the Teaching Service Commission? Does the commission ensure that there is somebody on the ground to make sure that teachers who are posted to such areas report to their respective schools? I doubt if the commission does that. I would like to urge the Teaching Service Commission to take this issue seriously. It should not post people just because they want to get a job. I, therefore, hope we will hear the good news that those who graduated from 2014, 2015 and 2016 will be employed because it will give hope to those who are graduating this year knowing that they will be employed in the next recruitment exercise.

Madam Chairperson, I would also like to talk about the examinations, which I spoke about earlier in my debate. I would like to urge the Teaching Service Commission that, maybe, it should try to work together with the Examinations Council of Zambia (ECZ) to find out why teachers are leaking the examination papers to children. The ECZ should also find out why the commission is encouraging teachers to have what is referred to as corner schools. Normally, leakages come from teachers who conduct extra lessons. So, the ECZ should work hand in hand with the commission to issue licences to those who want to carry out private tuition or extra lessons for their pupils. Maybe, that might help curb what we are currently experiencing.

Madam Chairperson, our education system has lost its value because teachers are very demoralised. Sometimes, when we hear that there is a certain political leader in an area, the teachers are intimidated to go and support the activity. So, it is all drama. I would like to ask the Teaching Service Commission to seriously come up with a programme, which will not be seen to be protecting or sidelining anyone, but to be cracking the whip when its commissioners hear that a teacher or a head teacher is a cadre. Automatically, such teachers should be out of the system. When commissioners hear that a person or the head teacher is not being supportive in one way or another, action should be taken.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Madam Chairperson, I would like to thank you for giving me this opportunity.

Madam Chairperson, I would like to contribute a word in support of the vote for the Teaching Service Commission of Zambia. The Teaching Service Commission of Zambian works on behalf of His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia.

Madam Chairperson, I have one question. I would like to know where we are heading as a country. Have we reached the end of development? Are our people so educated in terms of numbers? Have we reached the maximum? If the answer is yes, then, we can continue doing what we are doing as a country and the Government. Is the Government satisfied with the literacy levels in the country? The answer from the people of where I come from is that we are not yet at a high level of literacy because many of our people are not able to read or write. What are the costs of the recruitment of teachers?

Madam Chairperson, in our old days, I can still recall that we had floating teachers at primary school level. I do not think those teachers are still there. Floating teachers used to supplement the shortage of teachers at certain schools. That initiative was maintained because there are chances of teachers falling ill, getting engaged in other activities and therefore, pupils being left without being attended to. Therefore, that was the reason of having the extra teachers at each school. This ensured that learning continued without being disrupted.

Madam Chairperson, I would not want to blame the Teaching Serving Commission, but the Executive because it is the one which makes the decisions. What type of development that will not put education first does the Executive want to provide for this country? Today, we are talking about nationals from some countries who are coming to Zambia to do all sorts of construction works. I believe this is because those countries had invested in education.

Madam Chairperson, when the United National Independence Party (UNIP) came into power, it developed a policy for free education, which was practical. The policy enabled many peoples in villages to take their children to school. Currently, we are talking about free education, which is just on paper. When people complain about the lack of free education, they are accused of being political. Sometimes, we are told that it is just a matter of our perception.

The Chairperson: Order!

Let me guide the hon. Member on the Floor. You know that the Head for General Education and Head for Higher Education will come. Therefore, you cannot debate in general terms. Focus on the Teaching Service Commission whose mandate Her Honour the Vice-President has outlined. Time will come for the Ministry of General Education and Ministry of Higher Education.

You may continue, Hon. Miyutu.

Mr Miyutu: Madam Chairperson, thank you for that guidance. The Teaching Service Commission is responsible for appointing teachers to different positions, but this is not taking place. The problem I find in this country is that we have lost track. No wonder some time back, the country resorted to a One Party State.

Madam Chairperson, the elevation of teachers is supposed to be practical, but today, there is the victimisation of teachers. Some teachers are not elevated because they are perceived to belong to opposition political parties. This is what we are experiencing in our constituencies in most schools. So, we are urging the Teaching Service Commission to promote only those who deserve the promotions. The Western Province is one of those amongst the ten provinces which have low levels of promotions for teachers. I am sure of this because I had a chat in 2014 with the then Commissioner for the Teaching Service Commission. She attested to the fact that promotions are not made in the Western Province. So we are urging the Teaching Service Commission to promote the deserving teachers in the province.

Madam Chairperson, disciplinary cases of teachers are not well attended to. Thus, it takes time for these cases to be resolved. What I would want to request is that the cases be handled at provincial levels, instead of waiting for them to reach Lusaka. The time might be shortened if these cases are attended to at the provincial level. The Teaching Service Commission can create some branches in provincial headquarters which will be working to expeditiously dispose of the cases.

Madam Chairperson, when cases are left unattended to, it does not give a lesson to would-be offenders. We have heard from other debaters that the level of beer drinking among teachers is very high. The measure to curb beer drinking by teachers is to expeditiously handle disciplinary cases. Therefore, I would like to urge the Teaching Service Commission to expeditiously handle disciplinary cases in schools so that the situation is corrected.

Madam Chairperson, I would not want to ignore the fact that the rural areas are ignored in terms of deployment of teachers. We want to request that the rural areas should also receive an equal share of teachers as they are being recruited. The number which is missing or shortage of teachers according to the records as highlighted by the hon. Minister of General Education is somewhere around July this year was 36,000. So you can see the task which is ahead of us in this regard. A total of 36,000 teachers is what this country is short of, but the Government is recruiting only 2,000 teachers in 2019. However, when will the shortage of 36,000 teachers be covered so that we have schools which are well manned for effective teaching to take place? This presents a mammoth task for the Teaching Service Commission. Nonetheless, the commission can do what it can. The deployment of teachers should be done equitably including in schools in the rural areas.

Madam Chairperson, I now come to the issue of transfers for teachers. So many teachers are leaving rural areas going to urban areas and no replacements are made. Most schools in rural areas are being manned by one or two teachers. So the tolerance of transfers for teachers should be minimised.

Madam Chairperson, let me conclude by saying that the route we are taking in terms of education delivery will not lead us anywhere. The more teachers we take in the rural areas, the better because that is where the majority of the people are in this country are found. So, we need to take care of the rural areas. When we take care of the rural areas, we shall in the end achieve our developmental goals.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mung’andu (Chama South): Madam Chairperson, I have been compelled to debate the Vote for the Teaching Service Commission because of its importance not only to the people of Chama South but also the entire education sector.

Mr Sikazwe: Including to the people of Chama North.

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Chairperson, if you look at the teachers in this country, beginning from recruitment, deployment and actual retention, you can see that this commission is the one that is playing a very important role. I say so because previously, teachers used to be recruited through the Ministry of General Education. Most of the teachers, upon being posted, particularly to schools in rural areas end up coming back to urban areas within a month or two.

Madam Chairperson, the previous speaker just mentioned the problem of transfers for teachers. This is something that the commission should urgently look into. I will give an example of Chama District. I have a list of teachers that have left Chama District from January to June, 2018. They are in excess of 150 teachers.

Madam Chairperson, there is one school called Kapichilansenga Primary School. I went there during a good campaign of discouraging early child marriages. When I said to the girl children at this school that they could be teachers, they questioned me if it was possible for a female to be a teacher. This is because the school has no female teacher. They have never seen a female teacher before. When I went to the Office of the District Education Board Secretary (DEBS), I discovered that the records are showing that there are three female teachers at that school.

My further inquiry revealed that, indeed, the pay point for these teachers was Kapichilasenga. However, they have been redeployed to Chipata and Kasama.

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Mung’andu: These are facts I am stating.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Chairperson, the Teaching Service Commission should bring sanity to this problem. If 146 teachers can be transferred in six months from one district, that is a problem. I am appealing to the …

Hon. Opposition Members: PF!

Mr Mung’andu: Of course, it is the only Government, and it will remain the only one.

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Chairperson, I am appealing to our hardworking Government, through the Teaching Service Commission, to consider removing all those teachers who have been transferred from rural schools to urban schools from the payroll of the schools which have been abandoned. This is what is going to solve this big problem. I know that this is not a problem only in Chama South, but a countrywide problem.

Madam Chairperson, some people have asked how this happened. It goes back to our technocrats. If you talked to the District Education Board Secretaries (DEBS), they would explain that most of these transfers were done on request. If these people who left the rural schools were removed from the pay points of the schools where they have been taken, a number of them would go back to the schools in rural areas. It is unlikely that they will find pay points in those new schools where they have been taken. It is very unfair that someone can indicate on record that they work at a school in Chama South, when they work in Lusaka or Kitwe.

Madam Chairperson, I know that this year, the Teaching Service Commission will be fully involved in the recruitment of teachers, and the exercise will be decentralised to districts. We need to discourage tribalism in this aspect. This is one thing that we should all fight. Employing people, for example, who come from Chama in Chama itself and people from Kaputa in Kaputa itself would not be a good idea. Instead, we should allow the employment of people in these districts and then immediately swap them. Those who were employed in Kaputa should be sent to Chama, for example. I know others will argue that those who were employed in Kaputa or Chimbamilonga should remain there. That will be a serious receipt for tribalism.

Madam Chairperson, we want people who have been employed to be able to work anywhere in the country. For example, those who have been employed in Chama should be sent to go and work in Keembe or to the Western Province. I know the hon. Member of Parliament for Chimbamilonga Parliamentary Constituency wants the teachers employed from other areas to go to his constituency. Yes, let them go to Chimbamilonga and marry there. That will be one way of fighting tribalism. What we want is for our people to be employed. It is not a necessity that they remain where they are employed. The Teaching Service Commission should seriously consider that.

Madam Chairperson, the other thing I would like to talk about is the mode of recruitment. I have noticed that a number of teachers have files which contain all their qualifications and are submitted to the Teaching Service Commission when they apply for employment. Looking at our education system which comprises both the public and private learning institutions, I would like to suggest that the Ministry of Labour and Social Services be involved in the teacher recruitment system. Before being recruited, teachers must take aptitude tests. Some of these teachers cannot even spell their own surnames. A number of our high learning institutions, particularly, the private ones, are churning out half baked or unpolished graduates. This is a fact. If you had to make an analysis, you would discover that a number of graduates from private institutions have an upper hand over their counterparts from public institutions when it comes to employment opportunities. The only way we can separate the best from the good is through the aptitude tests system. Let them be examined. You may say they are qualified, but the fact is that people are qualified differently. No wonder colleges are ranked differently.

Madam Chairperson, in conclusion, I would like to submit that there is a need to synchronise the operations of the Zambia Qualifications Authority and Teaching Service Commission. This is very important. Let the Zambia Qualifications Authority scrutinise the qualifications of the teachers together with the Teaching Service Commission. I know of some colleges which offer degree programmes that run for six months. How is that even possible? Someone even calls himself a doctor after studying for only six months.

Hon. Government Member: Chishimba Kamwbili.

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Chairperson, such colleges do exist. Go to the Copperbelt. I do not want to mention the name of the college.

Laughter

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Chairperson, what I know is that for one to be called a doctor, he/she needs to spend sleepless nights for four years.

Dr Chibanda: Seven years.

Mr Mung’andu: The first degree takes not less than three or four years, depending on the university one attended. Currently, we have people who even walk flamboyantly, calling themselves doctors from nowhere.

Madam Chairperson, I would submit, as I support this Motion that the Zambia Qualifications Authority and Teaching Service Commission should work hand in hand for this nation to produce quality graduates. Quality graduates will give us quality services and innovations. That is a fact. Therefore, I support this Vote.

Madam Chairperson, I would like to urge the Teaching Service Commission to clean up the system from those who have moved from our rural areas so that we can have more teachers sent to our rural areas.

I thank you, Madam.

Dr Musokotwane (Liuwa): Madam Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to make some remarks on the Teaching Service Commission. The Teaching Service Commission is responsible for recruiting teachers and also managing teachers on behalf the President.

Madam Chairperson, I am not convinced that the budget which has been allocated to the Teaching Service Commission is appropriate. I am not satisfied with it. In fact, I will dare to say, I reject it. I reject it because we are not doing enough as a country to support the commission as it plays this important role of recruiting and managing teachers. I am not even sure that this is what we want to see in this country as far as development is concerned.

Madam Chairperson, in the 1960s and the years before, the prospect for a country to be rich was based on the amount of the natural resources it produced. These are copper and iron, among others. However, this is not so anymore. Today, the prospect for a country to develop is based on the quality of the human resources which it has. The quality of the human resources starts with education. It also starts with the recruitment of adequate teachers, yes, the recruitment of qualified and well motivated teachers.

Today, the situation in Zambia is very sad. I just came from Liuwa Constituency this morning. What I saw was shocking. I visited Ikatulamwa School and found out that the grades 1 to 7 classes were manned by two teachers only.

Hon. Opposition Members: Shame!

Dr Musokotwane: We expect these children who are being taught by two teachers to be the engineers tomorrow who will build the roads and not the Chinese. We are told that there are more than 30,000 people who have been trained to be teachers in order to develop manpower, but the commission is not able to recruit them because it is not being supported.

The Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

(Debate adjourned)

________

HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

________

The House adjourned at 1957 hours until 1430 hours on Wednesday, 31^st October, 2018.

____________

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