Tuesday, 23rd October, 2018

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Tuesday, 23rd October, 2018


The House met at 1430 hours


[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]












The Minister of General Education (Mr Mabumba): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to render a ministerial statement on the conduct of the Grade 7, 9 and 12 Examinations for 2018 and, in particular, to inform the august House and the nation at large on the cancellation of the 2018 Grade 9 Mathematics Paper 2Examination. This is due to the fact that the examination paper leaked and was circulated on both whatsapp and online news networks in the evening of 22nd October, 2018, a day before it was due to be written.


Mr Speaker, the 2018 Grade 9 Examination Question papers were received and distributed by the Examinations Council of Zambia (ECZ), as per its schedule and in line with the guidelines. Further, the ECZ and the Ministry of General Education received notification on the evening of 22nd October, 2018, that the Grade 9 Mathematics Paper 2Examination was posted online, in particular the Zambian Watchdog. Immediately, the ECZ took the following steps:


  1. informed the officers at the Office of the President, the Permanent Secretary (PS)in charge of administration in the Ministry of General Education and our key stakeholders;


  1. arranged to verify the authenticity of the circulated material. The verification process took place at the ECZ Offices in the presence of two Zambia Police Officers; and


  1. compare the circulated material with that in the ECZ storage. It was noted that, indeed, the 2018 Grade 9 Mathematics Paper 2Examination paper had been leaked and circulated on online media.


Mr Speaker, arising from the findings of the verification, the following actions have been taken:


  1. in line with the Examinations Council of Zambia Act, Cap 137 of the Laws of Zambia, Section 22(1), the Director of the ECZ, through the Ministry of General Education, has nullified the Grade 9 Mathematics Paper 2 which should have been written today, 23rd October, 2018, in the morning at 0800 hours;


  1. I have further instructed the management at the ECZ to print out another paper to be administered at a date to be advised before the end of the examination session;


  1. the ECZ management and the ministry, working with Government investigative wings, have been instructed to take remedial measures to mitigate the situation by thoroughly investigating the matter and bringing the perpetrators to book; and


  1. while the measures above are being administered, I have further suspended the conduct of examinations until further notice.


I thank you, Sir.


Mr Speaker: Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the statement given by the hon. Minister of General Education.


Dr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Speaker, it appears that examination leakages are now a perennial problem in Zambia. What is the hon. Minister doing about this unbecoming trend? Has the hon. Minister bothered to find out the source of the leakages? For as long as the source is not found, innocent children who do not believe in examination leakages will continue to inconvenienced. What is the hon. Minister doing about this and what is the source of the leakage?


Mr Mabumba: Mr Speaker, on the source, like I have said before, as I did two weeks ago when I presented a statement on the Grade 9 External Examinations and General Certificate of Education (GCE)Examinations, examination leakages happen in the communities where examinations are conducted. For example, in a quest to find the source of then nullified Grade 9 Mathematics Paper 2leakages, I decided to suspend the examinations so that we ascertain at what point the infiltration is.


Mr Speaker, without establishing the point of infiltration, it becomes difficult to continue conducting examinations. What we are going to do, like I said in the last two weeks, is the following:


  1. change the Examinations Council of Zambia Act to strengthen the punitive measures that are provided therein; and


  1. encourage my hon. Colleagues and their communities to report examination leakages to the appropriate investigative wings of the Government when they hear about them because there is the presence of an investigative wing, at least, in every district. It is important that they report examination leakages.


I thank you, Mr Speaker.


Mr Mbangweta (Nkeyema): Mr Speaker, given the endemic system breakdown in the Government across all sectors and that the Government has so many challenges in the ministry, what assurance is the hon. Minister giving us that the examinations will not be leaked when set?


Mr Mabumba: Mr Speaker, the only assurance I can give my hon. Colleague and the Zambian people, especially the innocent children out there, is that we will strengthen the policing of examinations once the new timetable and guidelines are issued. That notwithstanding, I expect my hon. Colleagues to provide leadership.


Mr Speaker, this affects our education standards in the country as a whole. This is why we need to work together. We need to have unity of purpose. Notwithstanding that, obviously, this mandate rests with the Ministry of General Education. However, all of us should become advocates to ensure that there are no leakages where examinations are being conducted. It is very possible to achieve this. I appeal to my hon. Colleagues to sensitise their communities in their respective constituencies.


I thank you, Sir.


Mr Jamba (Mwembezhi): Mr Speaker, is suspending the examination the best option? When examinations are prepared, there are three papers which are prepared concurrently for one subject. Was suspending the Mathematics Paper 2 Examination the best solution? When the Grade 12 pupils start writing their examinations, I suspect there will be more leakages. So, will the ministry continue suspending examinations?


Mr Mabumba: Mr Speaker, there were two options. The first one was to continue administering the examinations while investigations were going on, and the other one was to postpone the examination. When the two options were looked at in great depth, the conclusion was that the best option was to postpone or suspend the examination because, like I have said, we do not know the level of infiltration. Until we verify the level of infiltration in all our storage facilities across the country within this short time, which we are currently doing, only then will I be able to share with the country. However, in the best interest of the genuine pupils who have been studying for the past few years to prepare for the examination, we decided to postpone the examination.


I thank you, Sir.


Dr Chanda (Bwana Mkubwa): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has rightly said that he does not know the level of infiltration in the examination system. This is very worrying because leakages compromise education standards. However, since the hon. Minister does not know the level of infiltration, is the Government considering temporarily reverting to Cambridge International Examinations for Grade 12 pupils so that we seal the examination leakages in the country?


Mr Mabumba: Mr Speaker, Zambia is fifty-four years old. Therefore, we should be proud of our education system. Where there are weaknesses, we need to strengthen them. Notwithstanding the hon. Member for Bwana Mkubwa’s proposal to revert to the Cambridge International Examinations, I wish to remind him that we have been administering examinations in this country. However, this far, we know where there are challenges. Under the examination reforms, we will take into account all the weaknesses that have been identified, so far, so that we can try to see what corrective measures to put in place. Like I said, we intend to strengthen the Act and to enhance policing in strong rooms where examination papers are kept in schools.


I thank you, Mr Speaker.


Mr Mutaba (Mwandi): Mr Speaker, even last year, there were examination leakages. What remedial action did the ministry take then to avoid having examination leakages this year?


Mr Mabumba: Mr Speaker, one of the immediate remedial measures that the ministry undertakes administratively when examination leakages involve ministry staff is to dismiss them. In 2017, and even this year, a number of teachers were dismissed. When I issued a ministerial statement on the GCE Examinations, I indicated that all members of staff who would be involved in examination malpractices would be dismissed. On this occasion, if, after the investigations, it is concluded that some members of staff leaked the examination papers, they will be dismissed from the system.


I thank you, Mr Speaker.


Mr Nanjuwa (Mumbwa): Mr Speaker, seeing as examination leakages have now become perennial, which provinces are more involved in this scourge?


Mr Mabumba: Mr Speaker, the amount of involvement varies but, in most cases, leakages are common along the line of rail. The pupils along the line of rail are the ones who send information to their colleagues in rural areas.


I thank you, Mr Speaker.


Dr Malama (Kanchibiya): Mr Speaker, the scourge of examination leakages calls for robust action and proactivity, not reaction. Has the ministry considered using the polygraph test to interrogate people who are part and parcel of the human resource employed to handle examinations? The polygraph test is a lie detector.


Mr Mabumba: Mr Speaker, in fact, as one of the measures, the ministry is working with various investigative wings. I may not be able to disclose some of the measures that we intend to take. However, working with the State investigative wings and the Zambia Information and Communication Technology Authority (ZICTA), the ministry is considering a number of measures.


I thank you, Sir.


Ms Mwashingwele (Katuba): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister said that the Examination Council of Zambia (ECZ) got to know that there was a leakage online last night. Considering the pupils in Sioma, Kanchibiya and other far-flung areas of this country, could the hon. Minister assure this House that they have not sat for the Mathematics Examination and if they have, what will happen?


Mr Mabumba: Mr Speaker, the decision has been to nullify the Grade 9 Mathematics Paper 2 Examination. Therefore if, by mistake some pupils wrote that examination, it will not be counted because all Grade 9 pupils will write a new Mathematics Paper 2 Examination. When it became known that there was a leakage, information was sent around 2200 hours to all the Provincial Education Officers as well as the District Educational Officers. Early this morning, I crosschecked and the mathematics examination had not been administrated in many schools. However if, some pupils wrote this examination by virtue of not having this information, the examination remains nullified.


I thank you, Mr Speaker.


Mr Mwila (Chimwemwe): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister how much money the Government will waste to reprint and distribute the new Grade 9 Mathematics Paper 2 Examination countrywide?


Mr Mabumba: Mr Speaker, the Government will incur costs but, at the moment, the amount of money that will be spent to print and distribute the Mathematics Paper 2 Examination has not yet been ascertained, as we are currently going through that process.


I thank you, Sir.


Mr Muchima (Ikeleng’i): Mr Speaker, will instituting investigations this time around and suspending examinations be sufficient to curb the scourge of examination leakages which has been with us for some time now? What serious measures will the ministry put in place to completely stop this scourge?


Mr Mabumba: Mr Speaker, there are many long-term options that we can invest in as a country. One of them is the introduction of electronic (e)-examinations. However, this is not an immediate measure because of the logistics required. Some institutions like the Association of Chartered Certified Accountants (ACCA) have been doing this. However, considering the number of pupils who write examinations, we need to invest in the introduction of information and communications technology (ICT). That is the platform that this country should start looking at going forward. Our colleagues at the ECZ are trying to test whether this option can be implemented if we are to take that route. However, we will continue advocating, engaging and sensitising communities about the detrimental effects of examination leakages, one of them being the lowering of education standards. I would like to inform my colleagues that as a country, we need unity of purpose in advocacy. Together, we can win this battle.


I thank you, Sir.


Ms Tambatamba (Kasempa): Mr Speaker, will the ministry consider prosecuting the culprits behind the leakages that have characterised the education system for so many years?


Mr Mabumba: Mr Speaker, Part III of the Examinations Council of Zambia Act provides for prosecution and imprisonment. This is obviously why I am saying we are working together with the State investigative wings on this matter. Once the investigations are concluded, disciplinary action regarding this matter will be handled at the appropriate levels.


I thank you, Sir.


Mr Bwalya (Lupososhi): Mr Speaker, it is very sad that the nation has to discuss examination leakages even after fifty-four years of Independence. The postponement of examinations has far-reaching consequences, especially for pupils who are in boarding schools. Therefore, what measures have been put in place to ensure that the stay of the pupils who are in boarding schools is not extended beyond the stipulated and planned school timetable to avoid incurring further costs?


Mr Mabumba: Mr Speaker, like I said, we want to establish in the coming week the level of infiltration. I am sure that as soon as we have completed the work, which we started early this morning, we should be able to inform this country. Maybe, in the course of next week, we would be able to update the country on the new arrangements. For now, however, and I want to repeat myself, we need to provide social justice. Therefore, despite the interruptions this might have on our school system, I think it was a wise decision to take in order to ensure that there is education equality. Otherwise, if we were to allow the scourge to continue or the pupils to write the examination, it would not have been very fair to the children who are in Shang’ombo or Kaputa. Many of them have invested their time genuinely studying for an examination that had lost its integrity. So, we want to ensure that even when we revert to administering the examinations in the few coming weeks, enough policing logistics are put in place so that the examinations that will be administered will stand the test of time.


I thank you, Sir.


Mr Mwamba (Lubansenshi): Mr Speaker, the process of examination administration starts with printing, distribution and finally the papers being given to schools. Based on past experiences, at what point or stage are we experiencing leakages? Further, what mechanisms have been applied to ensure that we do not have a repetition of examination leakages? For instance, this year, the leakage was online. That is one platform where we have established the leakage. Therefore, where have the previous leakages been more frequent and what steps have been taken to stop that from occurring again?


Mr Mabumba: Mr Speaker, let me just demonstrate what we have experienced in the past. For example, the examination papers for 2018 arrived in the country on 12th August, 2018. In August, 2018 when examination papers were stored in Lusaka, we had no leakages. However, at when examination papers were distributed to the zonal centres where they are stored, that is where we experienced these malpractices. That has been our experience and, like I said, a number of measures have been put in place in the past. These include administrative measures of dismissing the members of staff who were involved in the malpractices and we will continue to do that.


I thank you, Mr Speaker.


Mr Speaker: I will take the last questions from the hon. Member for Chifunabuli, the hon. Member for Chilanga, the hon. Member for Lufwanyama, the hon. Member for Chikankata and end with the hon. Member for Kamfinsa.


Mr Mecha (Chifunabuli): Mr Speaker, since the Grade 9 Mathematics Paper 2 Examination has been nullified, I am just wondering what guarantee the hon. Minister can give us that the other Grade 9 papers have not been leaked although they have not been shared on social media.


Mr Speaker: Hon. Minister of General Education, the hon. Member wants a guarantee.


Mr Mabumba: Mr Speaker, since the examinations started, we have not received adverse reports on leakages compared to what happened last night. This is why none of the examinations that have so far been taken have been nullified. However, assuming that there was malpractice in the examinations that have been written, the ECZ will be able to identify whether there was infiltration at the time when the papers will be marked. If it is found that there was infiltration, again, the penalty is that the results for the candidates who were involved in the malpractice will be nullified and they will be suspended from writing examinations for two years.


I thank you, Sir.


Ms Langa (Chilanga): Mr Speaker, the June 2018, examination results showed low pass marks in Mathematics. Could it be that the leakage is due to the type of examinations that are being set which are very difficult for the learners or were, maybe, outside the syllabus? Further, what is being done to improve the learning methods of Mathematics in schools?


Hon. Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Speaker: I will ask the hon. Minister to just answer the first question.


Mr Mabumba: Mr Speaker, I talked about improving the pass rate in our examinations when I issued a statement on the GCE and Grade 9 External Examinations. I said that those who have looked at our advertisements for teacher recruitment for 2018 will see that there is a specific focus on recruiting teachers for Mathematics and Science. One of the reasons is that we have inadequate teachers of Mathematics in our school system. Therefore, to address that particular challenge, we will pay special attention on recruiting more teachers for Mathematics as we begin the recruitment for 2018. I am sure that this will improve the pass rate in examinations.


I thank you, Sir.


Mr Speaker: Hon. Minister, the suggestion in the question is that there are leakages because the the examination questions are difficult. That seems to be the question.


Mr Mabumba: Mr Speaker, irrespective of whether the subject is Mathematics or any other subject, the examinations are based on our curriculum framework. Our curriculum framework is what is taught in our school system. So, I do not agree that the examination questions are too difficult because they are based on what pupils are taught in the school system. Therefore, if pupils work hard, the examination that they write, whether it is Mathematics, Science or English should not be very difficult.


I thank you, Sir.


Mr Fungulwe (Lufwanyama): Mr Speaker, I am aware that during the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) Government …




Mr Speaker: Order on the right!


Mr Fungulwe: … when Hon. Brig-Gen. Dr Brian Chituwo was the Minister of Education, leakages for both Grade 9 and 12 Examinations were unheard of. The civil servants who worked in the MMD Government are still in the Civil Service. Therefore, I would like to find out if the hon. Minister has taken time to find out the methods which were used at that time to stop leakages which can also help him in his administration.


Mr Mabumba: Mr Speaker, we have rules and regulations in the administration of examinations in the Republic of Zambia. These are the same rules and regulations that every hon. Minister or all the people who function in the Ministry of General Education follow. First of all, at the national level, we have a National Security Committee. When you go to the province, there is a Provincial Security Committee. The security committees also exist at district and zonal levels. However, due to human behaviour, sometimes, there are unfortunate circumstances which we should have been able to prevent. Nonetheless, I just want to assure my colleague and everybody here that we will strengthen the physical presence of policing just to ensure that when we start administering examinations in the next few weeks, we have a system in place that can stand the test of time, like I said.


I thank you, Sir.


Mr Mwiinga (Chikankata): Mr Speaker, there is a video clip that has gone viral. In this clip, the hon. Minister himself said that the Grade 9 and Grade 12 Examinations have been cancelled. I want to get the correct position on the situation.


Mr Mabumba: Mr Speaker, let me repeat what I said. We have three levels of examinations, that is, Grade 7, Grade 9 and Grade 12. The decision that has been made is to postpone all the three examinations until further notice so that we can determine the level of infiltration of the examination materials that we have distributed to schools.


I thank you, Sir.


Mr Musonda (Kamfinsa): Mr Speaker, considering that examination leakages, especially General Secondary School Leaving Examinations(GSSLE), have been going on for over or close to forty years, why has the Government failed to devise means of stopping these leakages once and for all?


Mr Mabumba: Mr Speaker, like my colleague has said, this is a historical matter. As leaders, we should not continue lamenting this matter. Under the able leadership of our President, we will provide options. One option we are looking at is introducing e-examinations. When I issued a ministerial statement on the GCE, I said that there is an electronic device that we are testing now and when it reaches commercialisation, we hope that we can fit it in our strongrooms. This will mean that there will be no one who will have access to a strongroom holding examination materials because this material will be received from the strong rooms using an electronic system. This is one option we are looking at. We are testing it to see how best it can function in our school system.


I thank you, Sir.








75. Mr Kakubo (Kapiri Mposhi) asked the Minister of Transport and Communication:


  1. whether the Government is aware that the employees at the Tanzania-Zambia Railway Authority (Tazara) have not been paid their August and September, 2018 salaries;


  1. if so, why the employees have not been paid;


  1. whether the Government is aware that the employees are threatening to withdraw their labour due to non-payment of the salaries;


  1. if so, what measures will be taken to ensure that train services between Kapiri Mposhi and Nakonde are not disrupted due to the withdrawal of labour; and


  1. when the salary arrears will be paid.


The Minister of Transport and Communication (Mr Mushimba): Mr Speaker, the Government is aware that employees of the Tanzania-Zambia Railway Authority (Tazara) on the Zambian side have not been paid their August and September, 2018 salaries.


Mr Speaker, you will recall that I had updated the House on this matter in April 2018. Due to financial challenges faced by Tazara, the employees have not been paid their salaries. The company has been unable to generate enough revenue to cover employee salaries for a while now and the Government had been stepping in to help as much as possible. The reasons for this situation are many and we have discussed them here. They include a lack of capital investment into Tazara by the two shareholder governments for a period and old and inadequate equipment, and poor management of the institution. The matter are receiving a lot of attention from this Government and the Tanzanian Government with various levels of success.


The situation at Tazara, though still severe, has been improving over the last three or four years. When the Patriotic Front (PF) came into power, Tazara had hit rock bottom. It was at its worst performance of carrying only 88,000 metric tonnes of cargo against a breakeven point of 600,000 metric tonnes. However, the performance has been improving over the last few years. It has actually recorded remarkable improvement. As at June, 2018, an improvement of 151 per cent had been recorded. After the Government signed Statutory Instrument No.7 of 2018, which asked for 30 per cent of heavy and bulk cargo to be moved by railway, an additional 17 per cent improvement has been recorded. However, the volume of cargo being transported is still below the breakeven point of 600,000 metric tonnes. Therefore, Tazara needs more rolling stock. More business will be generated once more rolling stock is deployed.


Mr Speaker, Tazara has recently entered into an agreement with a private sector player called Calabash Freight Limited to put more rolling stock on the tracks. Further, Tazara has furbished several old rolling stocks and brought them back to life. Recently, in Kapiri Mposhi, I had the privilege to commission the furbished locomotives that were remanufactured using the company’s own internally-generated resources and technical staff.


Madam, from the growth figures that we see, we feel the environment is enabling enough. With the new policy directive, SI and new management in place, we are confident that Tazara will continue to turn around and soon, it will be able to pay salaries on time. The Council of Ministers noted the need to assist Tazara when it last met, and has since authorised US$9,577,000 for the procurement of additional traction motors and other spare parts to continue beefing up the rolling stock.


Mr Speaker, the Government is aware of the potential threat by workers to withdraw their labour due to the non-payment of their August and September, 2018 salaries. However, the Tazara management is working towards finding a lasting solution to improve operations and generate more revenue through the hire of additional rolling stock. In the last one year and a half, the management of Tazara. It managed to pay the May and June 2018, salaries from resources it generated. The Government expects this trend to continue and will support it. In addition to the efforts by the two governments to help Tazara reach the breakeven point of 600,000 metric tonnes, Tazara management has done the following to boost its revenue from non-train operational revenues: 


  1. entered into a public-private partnership (PPP) for Mununga Quarry and Kongolo Quarry. The partners have been identified and notified and they will help revamp the quarries for additional revenues;


  1. entered into a PPP for the production of railway slippers and other quarry products, and spare parts have been concluded and are awaiting approval from the board;
  2. signed a contract with a logistics company to construct the Kapiri Mposhi Dry Port. The contract was signed recently. Once constructed, the port will provide with warehousing and logistic support, and generate additional revenue for Tazara; and


  1. operationalised a furnace in Mpika for the production of mill balls for the mining sector. The furnace has been dormant for the last few years. The procurement of equipment for the furnace has been finalised.


Mr Speaker, with the efforts that management is making to address the salary issues, especially having shown commitment by paying the May and June, 2018 salaries, we expect the employees not to withdraw their labour because we also expect Tazara to find the resources very soon and clear the salary arrears.


Sir, the salary arrears will be paid as soon as Tazara generates adequate resources through its traditional revenue streams and the streams that it is bringing on board. The arrears will be paid.


I thank you, Sir.


Mr Lufuma (Kabompo): Mr Speaker, ...


Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Sir.


Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.


Mr Mwiimbu: Sir, thank you for allowing me to raise a point of privilege pursuant to Standing Order No. 28. You may recall that I had raised a question of urgent nature under Standing Order No. 31 sometime back. The question was authorised by your office. Eventually, there was another point of order that was raised by the hon. Member of Parliament for Kabwe Central which was purportedly similar to the issues that I had raised. As a result of the subsequent point of order by the hon. Member of Parliament for Kabwe Central, there was a ruling that due to the urgent nature of the issues that were being raised at the time, Her Honour the Vice-President would issue a comprehensive statement to this House on the issues pertaining to the Social Cash Transfer Scheme. That was about 21st September, 2018. Today is 23rd October, 2018 and no statement has been made by Her Honour the Vice-President despite the assurances by your office that the statement would be made on the Floor of this House.


Mr Speaker, it would appear that it is now becoming common for Her Honour the Vice-President’s Office to ignore your rulings.


Mr Kampyongo: Question!


Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I do recall that I had raised a constitutional issue which you directed Her Honour the Vice-President to respond to, but she never did. Two years later, I raised another similar question and she never responded to it. Last year, I repeated the same issue and raised a point of order on the Floor of this House on why Her Honour the Vice-President was not responding to the points of order that were being raised. You ruled that you would investigate the matter. The Office of the Clerk consulted me and I confirmed that these issues have never been responded to. A similar issue arose and you made a ruling. However, it is now a month and there is still no response from Her Honour the Vice-President’s Office.


Sir, is she in order to persistently ignore you on the issues that you have ruled on the Floor of this House? Is it because of the changes that have been made in the Constitution that she can now decide to ignore your rulings and not come back to you? Is she in order?


Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Speaker: I am aware that I did, of course, make a directive that the subject under discussion be incorporated in a comprehensive statement to be rendered by Her Honour the Vice-President. No time scales were attached to that ruling, but I do appreciate your concern that it has been a while since that ruling was made. In order to bring this matter to a close, I direct that the statement be issued next week on Tuesday. That is my ruling.


Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Lufuma: Mr Speaker, it is sad that the inability of the Tanzania Zambia Railways (Tazara) to pay its workers has become endemic. One of the reasons that the hon. Minister has given is inadequate cargo. For Tazara to breakeven and meet its operational costs, including the payment of salaries, it needs 600,000 metric tonnes of cargo. I have travelled to Nakonde by road and I have seen a lot of rolling stock in terms of trucks entering Zambia from Tanzania. I am told that the partner country, Tanzania, is reluctant to allow that stock to find its way on Tazara, hence the problems we have of cargo being transported by road. What is the hon. Minister, together with his Tanzanian counterpart, doing to ensure that the cargo, which is being transported by road, is minimised in order to make Tazara more viable?


Mr Mushimba: Mr Speaker, I thank Hon. Lufuma for that very important question. He has captured the situation accurately. It is true that over the last few years, both Zambia and Tanzania have seen a disproportionate amount of traffic on the road for goods and services that historically and traditionally should be transported using railway transport. Part of the reason for that is that both governments have invested massively in road infrastructure. Here in Zambia, you have seen roads being constructed everywhere. As Ministers, some of us have the privilege of travelling across the country and seeing how connected the country is. Almost every district is connected by road. The Patriotic Front (PF) Government is, indeed, working. However, that has created a situation whereby people now feel they should transport all their cargo by road because it is faster and it gets to its destination on time as compared to the two to three days that it used to take before the roads were worked on.


Sir, correspondingly, there has not been enough investment in railway infrastructure. As a result, the permanent railway line is degraded and the speeds reduced right along. However, we have started turning the situation around.


Mr Speaker, the more than US$70 million, which has been put in Tazara by both the Zambian Government and the Tanzanian Government, was used to work on the permanent ways and the slow speed areas. Over 80 per cent of the areas have been addressed. This has reduced the number of days it took to transport cargo from Mpika to Dar-es-Salaam from thirty-six to seven days. As a result, we are inning back the confidence of the market that we can secure cargo and transport it in good time.


Mr Speaker, Statutory Instrument No. 7 of 2018 mandates a minimum of 30 per cent of heavy and bulk cargo to be moved from road to railway. Therefore, both the Zambia Railways Limited (ZRL) and Tazara have been capacitated enough to transport cargo to its destination in the manner desired by the market.


Mr Speaker, the environment is changing and you will see a lot more traffic on the railway. A 151 per cent increase in cargo Tazara and an additional 17 per cent has been recorded since this SI was signed. Thereon, the trend is showing that there will be more cargo on the railway. Sooner rather than later, we will break even. That is our projection and desire.


I thank you, Sir.


Mr Speaker: Order!


Hon. Members, in terms of our schedule, and as we are all aware, we are processing the Budget primarily in this Meeting. We are actually behind schedule. For that reason, I will limit interventions in this Session because we need to catch up. So, I will only allow two interventions and we will move on to the next question.


Dr Chanda (Bwana Mkubwa): Mr Speaker, last year, I met an hon. Member of Parliament from Tanzania who clearly told me that the Tanzanian Government was not as committed to Tazara as the Zambian Government was because it is perceived that Tazara is more beneficial to Zambia than it is to Tanzania. When was the last time Tazara posted a profit and when exactly is it projected that it will post a profit?


Mr Mushimba: Mr Speaker, the allegation on Tanzania’s commitment that the hon. Member has talked about has always been there. It is alleged that since Zambia does not have access to any sea port, as the only sea port is Dar-es-Salaam, it benefits more from Tazara than Tanzania. However, the facts on the table are that Tanzania is equally as committed as the Zambian Government. Whenever the Zambian Government and Tanzanian Government have committed to putting money together to implement a project, the Tanzanian Government has done its part as much as the Zambian Government has done its part. So, the commitment is there and we hope that it will continue to ensure that we break even as soon as we can.


Sir, regarding the question on when Tazara posted a profit, I do not have that information with me. We are just half way now to being profitable, with the 600,000 metric tonnes which we need. We need to do a lot of work. We have come up with all the initiatives which I have spoken about, including the SI which we signed to fast-track in order to reach the break-even point. We hope that in the next couple of years, maybe, we can get to that point.


I thank you, Mr Speaker.


Mr Kakubo: Mr Speaker, the last part of the Question, which I asked the hon. Minister is what anchors part (c) and (d) of the Question, which is: When will the salaries be paid? In response, the hon. Minister, in a nutshell, mentioned that the salaries will be paid as and when the funds will be made available. With that kind of response, does it show that the hon. Minister is not in touch with the management at Tanzania Zambia Railways (Tazara) because he must have a projection of when salaries will be paid? As hon. Minister in charge, he must know the date because he must have anticipated this question and consulted management on when the salaries will be paid.


Mr Kambita: Hear, hear! Ema questions aya!


Mr Mushimba: Mr Speaker, tomorrow is not promised or guaranteed. I think only God knows what will happen tomorrow. None of us have that privilege. So, the conversations between the management staff of Tazara, which have been ongoing, are promising.


Like I said, salaries were paid in May and June 2018 from internally generated resources. The commitment is that Tazara is looking for resources. It has engaged the unions and there are internal talks going on. In the soonest possible time, Tazara will ensure that arrears are cleared.


I thank you, Sir.


Mr Speaker: Order!


Is the hon. Member for Kapiri Mposhi still pursuing this matter?


Mr Kakubo: Mr Speaker, when the House was on recess, we had incidents of Tazara employees actually downing tools and the members of the public in Kapiri Mposhi were stoning trains. With the response by the hon. Minister, we may see a repeat of this. Our colleagues on the Tanzanian side have actually put the Tazara employees on government payroll while the issues of the railway line are being sorted out. Is that not an option which the hon. Minister must take at this stage to avoid loss of property and more distress to the families of Tazara employees.


Mr Mushimba: Mr Speaker, on the Zambian side, we have employed both mechanisms of the Government helping and also Tazara being asked to do more. As the Government, we did not want Tazara to solely depend on the Zambian Government for all its operational costs. We have been asking it to do more. Tazara has been manufacturing its rolling stock internally using its own generated resources and engineers. Where the Government has felt warranted to step-in, it has done so and released salaries. Before May and June 2018, the Government released money for salaries to Tazara. So, we now feel that there is enough business which Tazara is generating. The rolling stock, which it has acquired, gives it an added advantage to ensure that it tranports more cargo. Recently, I saw a video of the first copper cathodes being transported by Tazara to Dar-es-Salaam. This is something which has not happened over ten years.


Mr Speaker, the business is looking good and I have seen that the projections are pointing to a situation where we will not have an illegal strike like the one which almost happened, as referred to by the hon. Member. The arrears will be cleared within a timeframe that has been agreed upon among the union, management and staff.


Mr Speaker: Order!


Hon. Minister, the question is: Would you consider putting the employees on Government payroll?


Mr Mushimba: Mr Speaker, outside the support, which the Government has been giving, and which I referred to, for example, the salaries before May, 2018 being paid by it, it has no intension of putting Tazara workers on Government payroll at this time.


I thank you, Sir.




76. Ms Chisangano (Gwembe) asked the Minister of Housing and Infrastructure Development:


  1. when the rehabilitation of the following schools in Gwembe Parliamentary Constituency, which are in a deplorable condition, will commence:


  1. Bunyete;


  1. Kole;


  1. Kalama;


  1. Nakasika;


  1. Chisanga;


  1. Siambamba; and
  2. Henga; and


  1. what has caused the delay in commencing the exercise.


The Minister of Housing and Infrastructure Development (Mr Chitotela): Mr Speaker, the Government will rehabilitate Bunyete, Kole, Kalama, Nakasika, Chisanga, Siambamba, and Henga schools in Gwembe Parliamentary Constituency when some of the projects, which are currently under implementation, are completed, as this will free resources for new projects.


Mr Speaker, the delay in rehabilitating the schools has been due to budgetary constraints which have made the Government phase the implementation of the projects. These are some of the projects that are being implemented, at the moment, and which the Government wants to complete before we embark on rehabilitating buildings in Gwembe. We just completed the construction of a boarding school in Gwembe in 2017 which is now operational. We are now implementing Phase II of the project for the construction of the district hospital in Gwembe which is above 80 per cent completion. We are constructing doctors’ houses which are above 65 per cent completion.


I thank you, Sir.


Ms Chisangano: Mr Speaker, some of the schools mentioned in the Question do not have roofing sheets and are a danger to the lives of the pupils. What immediate measures does the hon. Minister plan to put in place to save the lives of our dear pupils?


Mr Chitotela: Mr Speaker, some schools are in a deplorable state. Therefore, as an immediate measure, we will sit down with the District Education Board Secretary (DEBS) and the area hon. Member of Parliament to look at areas on which we can work together as regards grants that go to the districts and the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) once it is released. That way, we can quickly procure the roofing sheets and protect the lives of the children who are learning in that dangerous environment.


I thank you, Sir.


Mr Speaker: I will allow two other interventions from the hon. Member for Chembe and the hon. Member for Zambezi East.


Dr Kopulande (Chembe): Mr Speaker, I am sorry. The question I indicated to askwas for the hon. Minister of Transport and Communication on the subject of Tanzania Zambia Railways (Tazara).


Mr Speaker: I see. Well, your microphone was still on. So, I assumed you are still pursuing this matter. Anyway, it will pass.


The hon. Member for Zambezi East may take the Floor.


Mr Kambita (Zambezi East): Mr Speaker, I was wondering why I was displaced by the hon. Member for Chembe when I was next in line. Now I understand why.


Sir, what measures has the Government put in place –


Mr Speaker: You are talking to technology. It was technological, not human.




Mr Kambita: Much understood, Mr Speaker.


Sir, what does the Government have in place to help schools in our communities which have been damaged by strong winds, heavy rains or storms? We are all aware that the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) has not been coming forth as it should. What interventions has the hon. Minister put in place in collaboration with his colleague at the Ministry of General Education?


Mr Chitotela: Mr Speaker, I will restrict my response to Gwembe.


Sir, I said that while we are undertaking infrastructure development in Gwembe, we seem to have this situation that is affecting the wellbeing of our children who are learning in that environment. We will engage the leadership at district level to look at Government grants, including the CDF. No matter how small it is, it is important to prioritise and look at what will serve the people who sent us here.


Mr Speaker, I know that there are some constituencies that have received up to K500,000 CDF this year. If Gwembe is not one of the constituencies which have received the CDF, we hope that the Ministry of Finance will release the funds before the end of this year. We will sit down with the local leadership, including the area hon. Member of Parliament, and look at the pressing issues so that we can sort out the immediate needs of the people of Gwembe Parliamentary Constituency.


I thank you, Mr Speaker.




77.    Mr Mecha (Chifunabuli) asked the Minister of Health:


  1. whether the Government has any plans to construct health posts in the following areas in Chifunabuli Parliamentary Constituency:


  1. Shipangwa in new Mubansenshi Ward;


  1. Mwita in Kasansa Ward; and


  1. Muteta in Masonde Ward; and


  1. if so, when the plans will be implemented.


The Minister of Health (Dr Chilufya): Mr Speaker, the Government has plans to build new health posts in Shipangwa in new Mubansenshi Ward, Mwita in Kasansa Ward, and Muteta in Masonde Ward. The construction of health posts in the three areas is earmarked for 2020.


I thank you, Sir.


Ms Chonya (Kafue): Mr Speaker, are the health posts that the hon. Minister has confirmed for construction in the three wards part of the 650 health posts or is that a new programme in addition to the mini-level hospitals that I am aware he is planning to construct?


Dr Chilufya: Mr Speaker, the three health posts are not part of the 650 health posts earmarked for construction.


I thank you, Sir.


Mr Mung’andu (Chama South): Mr Speaker, I know it is not only in this constituency where people need health posts. Is the hon. Minister in a position to state when the remainder of the 650 health posts in Luapula Province, Muchinga Province and the Northern Province will be constructed?


Dr Chilufya: Mr Speaker, the contractor is currently mobilising in the four provinces. The contractor will certainly begin constructing towards the end of the month into November 2018.


I thank you, Sir.


Mr Kambita: Mr Speaker, if my memory serves me right, the hon. Minister promised to bring a schedule of the works that would be carried out concerning the health posts that are earmarked for construction throughout the country. When do we expect this schedule to be brought to this House so that we do not have questions like the one by the hon. Member for Chifunabuli?


Dr Chilufya: Mr Speaker, the schedule in question was to do with the construction of the 650 health posts. At the moment, the contractor and the technical team are still working out the full schedule to determine the exact timelines. We will release the schedule with precise timelines once the contractor finishes working with the technical team in the ministry.


Sir, for the other health infrastructure, we are looking at the capital investment plan where we know that we have a deficit of health infrastructure countrywide. Therefore, there are a number of health posts which we plan to build in the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework (MTEF). This is dependent on the availability of resources. We have a plan to build 500 primary health facilities within the strategic period of 2017/2021. This is dependent on availability of resources, and it is spread out beyond the 650 health centres and beyond 2020. However, we cannot release the timeline until we are precise with the infrastructure operational plan.


I thank you, Sir.











VOTE 01 – (Office of the PresidentState House − K68,877,221).


Mr Nkombo(Mazabuka Central): Madam Speaker, before business was adjourned, I was about to ask Her Honour the Vice-President to send a message on my behalf to His Excellency the President to remind him of his duty in State House to ensure that he fills the establishment of the Judiciary Bench. There are so many people who are in prison today because of the delays in the criminal justice system in this country.


Madam Chairperson, I think that everyone will agree with me that justice delayed is justice denied. Whoever is responsible for the delay of justice is the one who is responsible for its denial.


Madam Chairperson, State House supervises all Government ministries. We have been seeing many screaming headlines about basically what one would call dismissal of civil servants. I think that the can of worms was opened at the time when the scam of the Social Cash Transfer Scheme was brought into the public domain. We, then, heard that some officials in the Ministry of General Education had been dismissed. We were also told that there are difficulties in other ministries.


Madam Chairperson, I have a difficulty and it relates to one of the institutions that we established here in Parliament, that is, the Financial Intelligence Centre (FIC). The FIC’s report gave an undoubted story of financial impropriety, some of which is practiced by people in the Government. I could not say much about fellow politicians, but there is definitely a lot of rot that goes on in the Civil Service. I will be a bit unfair to my colleagues in the Executive if I accuse them of pilfering because I do not have the details. However, I know for a fact from the Auditor-General’s Report and from watching the proceedings of the Public Accounts Committee (PAC) that Permanent Secretaries (PSs) are just being sent home. Instead of being prosecuted, they are just being dismissed. What kind of country is this?


Madam Chairperson, one, then, has no choice but to start making assumptions that probably civil servants are just conduits of the people who are in charge.


I know of a PS who bought a farm in my constituency for US$2 million. This is an obscene amount of money. Madam Chairperson, put me on record, US$2 million is an obscene amount of money. Where can a PS get that kind of money from? There is no record of him getting a loan from a bank. This is a matter that the FIC that we created here must investigate, and thoroughly so.


Madam Chairperson, a PS reports to State House. This is where I am making my nexus. How is it that people can just be told to go home on suspension? His Excellency the President must crack the whip. He told us in November, 2016 that some of his colleagues were corrupt. We have not got any proof of what he was saying apart from the information that is now trickling in small dosages.


Madam Chairperson, it is generally understood that there is too much corruption in the Patriotic Front (PF). In this particular instance, the PF is a co-mingling of the Executive and the people it employs. This is how the PF is constituted. If there is something that it will be remembered for, it is corruption.


Madam Chairperson, if you remember, at the end of the Second Republic, a Head of State was taken to the courts of law for what was called plunder. The only thing that we learn from the past, because we are told that we learn from past experience, is nothing at all. There will come a time for sure when our colleagues, whether it is now or in the distant future, will not sit on your right side. Milandu siyiwola. Cases do not just fizzle out. The long-winding arm of the law will visit those who are dipping into public resources.


Madam Chairperson, finally, this House enacted the Road Development Agency Act. I appeal to Her Honour the Vice-President to tell His Excellency the President when she next goes to State House, to release the Road Development Agency (RDA) back to the Ministry of Works and Supply because it is sitting in a wrong place.


Mr Mwiimbu: Hear, hear!


Mr Nkombo: We have said this over and over again. There is no contest. It is in a wrong place. If His Excellency the President is the one who is superintending over the RDA, where do we go for recourse when we smell corruption? Nowhere.


I am directing  …




Mr Nkombo: … Her Honour the Vice-President …




Hon. Member: Gary, aseka no seka.


Mr Nkombo: … to do me a favour by telling His Excellency the President to just do the right thing by taking the RDA back to where it belongs.


I thank you, Sir.


Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Mushanga: He is the president of the United Party for National Development (UPND). He is imagining.


He is dreaming that he is president of the UPND.


Dr Kambwili (Roan): Madam Chairperson, I thank you for according me the opportunity to debate the Motion on the Floor of the House. Let me state, from the outset that I have a lot of respect for the institution of State House. From the time I came to this House, I have always debated on the Head of State House because of its importance in the governance of this country. However, I must state that I am extremely disappointed with the current happenings at State House.


Madam Chairperson, you cannot understand that all the people who work at State House have become rich over the last two to three years. When you see the kind of structures that they are building and the kinds of vehicles that they are driving, one wonders whether there is a special business that they do. This is only happening for the first time. Many people who have worked at State House before, but the current employees, though not all of them but most of them, have become extremely rich and it clearly shows you that there is a lot of corruption at that institution.


Madam Chairperson, when we get into public office, by and large, everybody knows us. People knew who I was before I joined politics. People know who whoever is in the Government was before because we lived in the same communities and our neighbours knew us. What is happening needs a proper clean up. I call upon the powers that be at State House to subject all the employees there to an inquiry into how they have acquired so much wealth in the last three years because it is really unacceptable.


Madam Chairperson, the Civil Service is all about service to the people, but what we have seen with the current employees at State House is that they have just gone there to make their money through plunder of national resources.


Madam Chairperson, I want to sound a warning that nobody has stayed in power for good and nobody has worked at State House for good.


Mr Mwiimbu: Hear, hear!


Dr Kambwili: The time of reckoning will come soon, and very soon.


Mr Nanjuwa: Hear, hear!


Dr Kambwili: When we ask some of them how they have become rich, all we get are insults. However, those insults are short-lived because the time of reckoning will soon come. How is it that all the people at State House have become sub-contractors? When you go to their houses, some of them live near us, you will find that there is always equipment for road construction. That is why we are saying the projects are not being implemented for the sake of developing Zambia. The projects are being implemented for people to get themselves rich by sharing the sub-contracted jobs.


Madam Chairperson, I want State House to come out clean on the sub-contracted jobs because, as you know, business is not only about the people in the Patriotic Front (PF). Today, if you are not a PF member, you can never ever get a sub-contract. Sometimes, the people at State House give directives to the operatives on who to award sub-contracts. This is extremely sad. That is why we have shoddy jobs being done because contracts are awarded to people who are not contractors, but those who patronise the PF. People are given jobs that they cannot do. No wonder there is a complaint that Zambians fail to perform when they are given the 20 per cent sub-contracts because the people who are being given contracts are given out of patronage. One cannot believe how everybody at State House can become a contractor. It is extremely sad. I want to warn those young men at State House that time for reckoning will come.


Madam Chairperson, amatebeto were private events held in sitting rooms. We used to have them. Nobody even knew that you had matebeto. Today, you can use a chi big bus for matebeto.


Mr Mwiimbu: Ah!


The Chairperson: Hon. Dr Kambwili, …


Mr Kampyongo: Question!




The Chairperson: Hon. Dr Kambwili, …


Dr Kambwili: I am not mentioning any name, please.


The Chairperson: … stay away from that kind of discussion.


Dr Kambwili: I have not mentioned anybody, Madam. Be fair. I think curtailing debate in this House must come to end.


Hon. Members: Ah!


Mr Kampyongo: Mm!




Dr Kambwili: Let us discuss these issues.


Mr Kampyongo: You cannot challenge the Chair like that.


The Chairperson: Hon. Dr Kambwili, take your seat.


I am paying attention to your debate and I must ensure that your debate is relevant to the issue under discussion, …


Mr Mwamba: Hear, hear!


The Chairperson: …which is the budget for State House.


Hon. Member for Roan, this House is not interested in amatebeto and that kind of issue. We are interested in the Budget for State House…


Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!


The Chairperson: … as well as the policy statement that has been given.


Mr Mwale: Wamvera ka?


The Chairperson: That is my guidance. Certainly, no one wants to curtail your debate, but be relevant to the issue under discussion.


Continue, with your debate.


Dr Kambwili: Thank you very much for the guidance, Madam.


I mean, it is the way of splashing money earned through corruption. That is what we are talking about. People are exposing themselves.


Mr Bulaya: All that food for a small boy.


Dr Kambwili: I mean when people do such things, they must be secretive. They should not show the whole world that they can do extraordinary things because we are giving them money through State House. We are paying them salaries because we want a service from them, not for them to show us their matebeto.


Madam Chairperson, let me talk about the grounds at State House. You know the State House surroundings must be clean all the time. His Excellency the late President started a very good programme growing lawns all over State House. He put up sprinklers to water the lawns. Today, the outside of State House looks very dirty more especially the Police Camp at State House. Can we do something about that because everybody who comes to Zambia will see it through the appearance of State House. Go to the White House or No.10 Downing Street.


Madam, I am made to believe that sixty-three names of employees of a certain tribe were surrendered to the Public Service Management Division (PSMD) on the basis of leaking information from State House. Probably, these are the sixty-three employees who knew how to look after the grounds of State House. However, they were surrendered on the basis of their tribe.


Mr Bulaya: Hammer!


Dr Kambwili: Not everybody who belongs to a certain tribe should be perceived to be a supporter of a particular political party to warrant sixty-three people being surrendered to the PSMD. At the moment, those people do not work because they have not been posted anywhere. Most of them are just drawing their salaries without working. This is unacceptable.


Madam, we need to clean the surroundings of State House. State House must be exemplary. I want to particularly thank one hon. Minister who has changed his surroundings at his House. The one who lives by the corner of Leopards Hill Road and Brentwood Drive. I think it is Hon. Nkhuwa. That is the way hon. Ministers’ houses and State House should look from the outside. However, what we are seeing outside State House Police Camp leaves much to be desired. I think if you cannot look after the State House Police Camp, relocate it. Take the police elsewhere so that the place can be cleaned up. Otherwise, the surrounding of State House is not anything to talk about.


Madam Chairperson, let us not abuse authority when we have it. It is very dangerous. People are being dragged to court. For example, we have heard that sixty-three civil servants have been fired. The firing of sixty-three civil servants must not only affect civil servants, but also all the people who are in Public Office, including hon. Ministers. How do we explain that for the first time in the history of this country, a Private Secretary to the President is given a ministerial house? A Private Secretary being given a ministerial house? I have never even heard of a Permanent Secretary (PS) living in ministerial house.


Hon. UPND Members: Shame!


Dr Kambwili: Today, the Private Secretary to the President lives in a ministerial house. Hon. Ministers rent houses elsewhere at exorbitant prices while that house is given to a Private Secretary at State House. That is abuse of authority. Those houses are for hon. Ministers. From time immemorial, the only other two people allowed to occupy those houses are the Zambia Army Commander and the Zambia Air Force (ZAF) Commander. In the past, I have seen them accommodated in these houses and, obviously, those are special cases. However, you find a Private Secretary, who is a junior civil servant, living in a ministerial house. When Her Honour the Vice-President comes to respond, I want to know how that junior officer has found himself in a ministerial house when the law is that no civil servant will be accommodated, with the exception of police officers and teachers because of the nature of where they are posted in rural areas. Here in Lusaka, you accommodate a Private Secretary to the President in a ministerial house.


Madam Chairperson, I would like to appeal to State House to consider decentralising the Ministry of Housing and Infrastructure Development. Centralising every function, for example, ensuring that the procurement and the development of infrastructure is done by the Ministry of Housing and Infrastructure Development here in Lusaka is a conduit of corruption. The procurement of certain things must be left to the provinces. When I was watching television the other day, the PS for Muchinga Province complained about some shoddy job that had been done at Nakonde Border. He was saying that the shoddy work was a result of receiving contractors from Lusaka without being involved. Things being done from Lusaka must be reviewed. I know that State House supervises and is also in charge of restructuring ministries. Giving all the functions to the Ministry of Housing and Infrastructure Development is only making a few people pompous and rich at the expense of service delivery.


Madam Chairperson, I want to be on record as having advised the Government to decentralise the Ministry of Housing and Infrastructure Development so that if a project has to be implemented on the Copperbelt, the Copperbelt Provincial Administration should advertise that project and award the contract. Leaving all the functions to the central administration delays the implementation of projects because, obviously, the people who work at the Ministry of Housing and Infrastructure Development get overwhelmed because they are human beings. However, by and large, this is being done for the purpose of controlling who should get a particular contract.


Madam, that is why I am saying that let us not use public office for personal gain. I hope and trust that those who have been given the responsibility to manage State House will ensure that we treat this institution with a lot of integrity. All the people who work at State House are expected to behave in an exemplary manner and not what we are currently seeing where State House has been turned into a place for cutting deals like is done on Katondo Street. No. State House must be for the administration of the State.


Madam Chairperson, I will talk about issuing police permits to political parties in detail when we debate the Budget for the Ministry of Home Affairs. However, no political party is being given a permit except the PF. We are a basket. I cannot hold a meeting in my constituency because of security reasons, yet we see the PF Secretary-General dancing all over the show and holding meetings. So, the risk posed by holding meetings only affects hon. Members from the Opposition. State House must be above board and remind the people in charge of issuing permits for meetings that this is a democracy and we must behave as a democracy. This tendency will come back to haunt the Government. Whatever goes up comes down. In a nutshell, I support the budget for State House.


I thank you, Madam.


Mr Ngulube (Kabwe Central): Madam Chairperson, I would like to thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate in support of the budget for State House.


Madam Chairperson, State House is not a ministry, as might be misunderstood by some people. We know that State House is the apex of the administration of this country. It is the home and office of the President, who is also the Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces. I expect all hon. Members of Parliament, regardless of their political inclination, to support this budget. We are aware that without an adequate budget, State House operations will continue being difficult. We are also aware that if we do not support the allocation or do not pass this budget, it will be difficult for State House to operate.


Madam Chairperson, as you know, I am a very brief debater. I do not debate for more than five minutes. Today, I want to conclude my debate by stating that issues to do with the supervision of hon. Ministers and ministries should not hinder hon. Members of Parliament from supporting this noble institution of the Government.


Lastly, Madam, there must be a way in which this budget accommodates hon. Members of Parliament’s access to this important house. We know that State House should be a place where hon. Members should actually run to whenever they have difficulties in their constituencies. I also want to encourage hon. Cabinet Ministers to find a way of opening their doors so that hon. Members, together with State House, can actually render a service to their constituencies and develop them.


I thank you, Madam.


Mr Bwalya (Lupososhi): Madam Chairperson, State House is an institution that is part of the governance of the Republic of Zambia. It is a national house that requires a lot of support and that we all look up to. It should be looked at without considering the face of the President at a particular time because the institution drives and champions good governance.


Madam, there are a number of governance institutions which are available and it is only right that the Presidency, which resides in State House, is seen to provide guidance in that regard because that is the more reason this country created the institutions. The Constitution of the Republic of Zambia is very categorical about anything that has to do with either the misappropriation of funds or any mal-administration. It would not be good for us and, in fact, it would be wrong for the governance system to treat State House as part of the various constitutional and corporate institutions.


Madam Chairperson, the President is the Head of State and Government, and the Commander-in-Chief of the Defence Forces. That is not debatable. However, within that particular framework, this budget only confines to the functions and operations of State House. The Constitution created the Office of the Public Protector so it can deal with issues of mal-administration. When the President, through the institution of State House, receives a report from the Office of the Public Protector, he guides and directs the institutions responsible for enforcement. The reason this budget is presented is to enable the Presidency to provide that guidance.


Madam, a number of issues were referred to by my colleagues and, as a Backbencher, I look at them from a different perspective. When we talk about corruption, for example, there is a governance institution specifically mandated to deal with that issue.  That is the more reason the Presidency has to ensure that the people who are charged with that responsibility carry out their mandate without interference. Several times, people have complained that the Executive meddles in the functioning of the Judiciary. We know that we can fill the Bench with the required number of Judges but, at the end of the day, the National Treasury has to support in employment. Therefore, it is important to separate the institution of State House from issues of governance so that it can be looked at as an institution on its own.


Madam, when we talk about infrastructure, there are employees under State House who are specifically responsible for infrastructure and it is those employees and the operations of the Presidency that this budget is talking about. Therefore, my appeal is that we apply the doctrine of separation of powers. When one is a board chairperson of an organisation, the responsibility of the organisation, more or less, rests on him/her. However, since there are other board members, duties are segregated. The Government operates in the same manner. In that sphere, you find that the Judiciary deals with its own issues independent of the institution of State House because it has its own budget to implement.


Madam Chairperson, a helicopter view of the Presidency presiding on various institutions is welcome because the President needs to oversee all the institutions of the State. The President should monitor those who are responsible for managing particular institutions so that they perform their duties to the best of their abilities not only independently but also efficiently.


Madam Chairperson, I would also like to talk about the building which houses State House. The building is outdated because it was built in the colonial days and only God knows how it has held itself together up to now. When talking about this, we must detach the face of the present occupant of State House. Each time the issue of building a new State House or making it better than it is today comes up, emotions flare up. Unfortunately, the emotions are only attached to the person holding the Office of President at the time. This is wrong because that is a national house.


Madam, anyone vying for the leadership of this beloved country one day will end up in State House. Therefore, as a country, we should be bold enough to do something about that house and make it look better. The roof was worked on so many years. Again, I spoke on this particular subject in the previous Assembly and said that only God knows why that building has not collapsed on the sitting President. God forbid that from happening, but that building is outdated. So, when we debate this matter, we need to look at how best we will improve the institution of Presidency. In so doing, we will also enhance the efficiency of the institution.


Madam Speaker, I agree that State House has to address the issues of maladministration and misapplication of public funds as well as ensuring that human rights are upheld. However, it will be too much to ask that the institution of State House be the one to be directly involved in the prosecution of erring officers. There must be a separation of duties. We should also ensure that we enforce the doctrine of separation of powers in totality so that each institution of governance functions independently. The Human Rights Commission (HRC), Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC), Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC) and many other institutions must be allowed to function independently and compile their reports. If there are issues arising in those reports, they can be directed to the relevant institutions to carry out what is required.


 So, my prayer is that this budget be looked at in the context of the functions of State House.


I thank you, Madam Chairperson.


Mr Lufuma (Kabompo): Madam Chairperson, I thank you for the opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Floor of this House on the Office of the President. I would like to put my debate in context so that it is not misread or misinterpreted. We all know that State House accommodates or houses the Head of State. The Head of State is the Chief Executive Officer (CEO) of the country called Zambia. As the CEO of Zambia, the Head of State is responsible for the strategic direction of this country. He is also responsible for the good governance of the corporate body called Zambia.


Madam Chairperson, the Head of State is supported by various departments and institutions, including parastatals and the operatives that Hon. Dr Kambwili has talked about as having become extremely rich. The operatives are very close to the President, who is occupying State House at this moment.


Madam Chairperson, the success or failure of Government institutions, departments and operatives is directly or indirectly attributed to the success or failure of State House and the Presidency. In short, the buck stops with the President or State House. The budget that we are discussing today is basically given to State House by the people to ensure that the occupant of State House executes and administers the affairs of the Republic of Zambia diligently and as expected by the people of Zambia.


Madam Chairperson, we expect good governance in this country, and this is where I will anchor my discussion on State House. By good governance, I am talking about honesty and integrity in public institutions. In this regard, I am talking about departments that assist State House such as the Judiciary, the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC), Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ), Office of the Auditor-General, the Zambia Police Service, public and the private media and the Legislature. These institutions must be autonomous.


Madam Chairperson, further, good governance, for me, means being averse to corruption or zero tolerance to corruption. When the Patriotic Front (PF) came into power, the late President Michael Sata said that he was allergic to corruption. Unfortunately, this is not the case at the moment. Good governance also means ensuring that the supreme law of the land is upheld; it also means that we adhere to the rule of law; it also means that we do not apply the rule of law selectively; it means being tolerant to divergent views and it also means that when we recruit personnel in Government institutions, we do so without regard to tribe and region of origin of the candidates so that the recruitment resembles the face of the whole Zambia.


Madam Chairperson, good governance also means that the Government should not deliberately go out to purchase, procure or entice members of the Opposition to join the Ruling Party, hence creating what are called unnecessary by-elections that ...


Mr Lubinda: Lufuma, niku ulule? Nizaku ulula.


Mr Lufuma: … have a negative impact on the Budget.


Madam Chairperson, good governance also means that the police must be professional and not brutalise the citizens of the Republic of Zambia. It also means that taxes, fees, tariffs and general price levels are kept in tandem with the general level of the incomes of the people. These are the expectations we have of the person who occupies State House. Short of that means there is failure in the system.


Madam Chairperson, having said that, I would like to particularly talk about corruption. I want to extract corruption from the list of expectations that I have made and talk a little about it. According to a certain survey, Zambia is the sixth most corrupt nation in the world.


Hon. Government Members: Question!


Mr Lufuma: Madam Chairperson, this is according to the Price Waterhouse Coopers (PwC) 2018 Global Economic Crime and Fraud Survey, for those who would like to refer to it.


Madam, please, allow me to adopt Hon. Dr Kambwili’s debate on corruption as my own because he raised many issues that I also wanted to mention, but it will suffice to say that I know people at State House who, before they were there, were people of modest means like me. Assuming that I am fifty years old – not that I am fifty, and for the past forty-nine years, I have had no track record of a business, then, the people of Zambia give me the privilege to be in State House and, one year later, I become one of the richest persons in Zambia the question is: With no track record of a going concern, how have I acquired so much wealth? That is the question I am posing to the hon. Members of the Patriotic Front (PF).


Madam Chairperson, let me encapsulate corruption in a sentence by the first Republican President, Dr Kenneth Kaunda (KK). Please, allow me to quote him. I will quote him in Bemba because, sometimes, he likes to speak in Bemba. I am not very good at Bemba but, please, bear with me. He said, “Muletaka ichalo kwati imbwa ishikete kalulu.”For my people in Kabompo, it is, “Kanda mulitanyina lifuchi nge tuwa va na kwate mbwanda.”




Mr Lufuma: Madam Chairperson, this, in English, simply means: Do not scramble for public resources like dogs fighting for a piece of meat of a kalulu, the hare. This is the reality.


Madam Chairperson, the PF used to deny the allegation of corruption and used to ask for evidence of corruption. Fortunately, the Financial Intelligence Centre (FIC) came out with a report. We are yet to see action on the part of the Government. I remember asking Her Honour the Vice-President on Friday what action the Government had taken concerning the report, but she did not give me an answer. Fortunately, the donor community has revealed the extent of corruption in this Government. I know that there are problems in the Ministry of General Education. I also know that monies for the Social Cash Transfer Scheme have been ‘chewed’ or ‘eaten’ by the same PF Government. This must come to an end, and the buck, as I said, stops with His Excellency the President. His Excellency the President must act swiftly to ensure that this rot is minimised, if not eradicated.


Madam Chairperson, the other area I would like to extricate from my schedule of expectations is the hyper intolerance of divergent views by the PF. Let me cite what happened at the University of Zambia (UNZA). There was a demonstration and, unfortunately, one innocent lady was killed. It was insinuated that how come an old lady can disappear and, then, all of a sudden, a hyena not farts, but defecates …


Hon. Government Members: Ah, iwe!


Mr Lufuma: … and there is grey hair in the faecal matter. That was the insunuation by His Excellency the President in reference to Mr Hakainde Hichilema.


Ms Kapata: Who is he? Who is he?


Mr Lufuma: The Opposition leader.


That should stop because we are just tarnishing our names by being hypersensitive to criticism. The PF Government must take criticism because criticism is what will build it. We criticise in order to provide checks and balances. We do not do that because we just want to.


Madam Chairperson, on that note, I would like to thank you so much for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the debate.


I thank you, Madam.


Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!


The Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Kampyongo): Madam Chairperson, thank you so much for permitting me to contribute to the debate on the Motion moved by Her Honour the Vice-President in respect of Vote 01 – Office of the President – State House.


Madam Chairperson, I want to place on record how disheartened I was on Friday when we commenced debate on this particular Vote. In debating this Vote, the hon. Members on your left alleged tribalism on the part of the Executive.


Madam Speaker, State House, an institution where a public servant is deployed by the people of Zambia, is a dignified. The occupier of State House must ensure that the country remains united at all times. That is why the people deploy their servants to State House. All those who think they can deploy themselves there or impose themselves on people will always be disappointed.


Mr Lubinda: Hear, hear!


Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, the occupier of State House has tried to unite this nation by ensuring that he also delegates part of his powers and functions to his fellow citizens who are hon. Members of this august House. He can only do with what he has. The insinuations we heard on Friday were that he does not look at other regions. If he does not get representatives from those regions, how is it that some people actually resist his appointments? He is on record as having appointed someone to the position of Minister of Defence. He did this when he was first elected, following the death of President Sata. That son of the soil from the Southern Province who accepted to serve in the Government was treated like an outcast. He paid a price for that. I am, therefore, surprised that the hon. Member of Parliament for Mazabuka Central Parliamentary Constituency, who is enjoying, ...


Mr Nkombo: Who is laughing.


Mr Kampyongo: ... was the most jealous of this gentleman when he was appointed Minister of Defence.


The Chairperson: Withdraw that.


Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, I withdraw that statement. The lamentations were made by this hon. Member. So, I needed to make that very clear. I was shocked and extremely disappointed. I have the verbatim record with me and I will quote what he said:


“Sir, seeing that my mother, Her Honour the Vice-President comes from a minority group in this same group of people ...”


Madam Chairperson, for heaven’s sake, how can a leader stoop so low? We are very proud to have our mother here as the person holding the second highest office in the land. I think when His Excellency the President settled for her, he made a perfect choice.


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, we have supported him and we shall continue doing so. We understand why they have remained there for so long (pointing at the hon. Opposition Members). It is because of that kind of thinking. When they too lost their founding father, may his soul rest in peace, they said only a person from a tribe that was in charge was to replace their late leader.


Mr Lubinda: Nenzeko mwana.


Mr Kampyongo: That is cowardice of the worst kind. There are witnesses here. For us −


Mr Lubinda: Na Douglas enzeko.


Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, on our part, when we lost the founding father of the PF, President Sata, may his soul rest in peace, there were some brothers who wanted to take the same route that our colleagues on your left took. However, we said that this is a dignified office and appealed to our brothers to not entertain tribalism. Mr Sata came from Muchinga, and so, we appealed to our brothers, some of whom are in this House and can attest to this, to not entertain tribalism in the Patriotic Front (PF) by saying because Mr Sata was from this region, so the person to take over from him was also supposed to come from the same region. We put our foot down. We are grateful that some of those brothers of ours are still here and they heard us. Today, we have President Lungu in office, and he has tried to balance the composition of his Cabinet.


Madam Chairperson, when we look at this side of the House, we feel happy because we are balanced. Every region is represented here.


Hon. Opposition Members: Question!


Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, when you look at the left, you can see for yourself. It took two years of appealing to our colleagues not to be greedy by holding on to two positions in this House. We asked them to relinquish one of the positions to another region.


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Kampyongo: Hon. Nkombo, we are happy that you listened. That is how leadership should be.


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.


Mr Lubinda: Gary, kokala ansi.


Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, ...


The Chairperson: Order!


Hon. Minister, take your seat.


Mr Nkombo interjected.


Hon. Government Members: Aha! Kokala ansi, Gary.


Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.


The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.


Hon. Government Members: Ah!


Mr Nkombo: Madam Chairperson, I have said in this House, and I will say it again, that I am the humblest Member of Parliament.




Mr Nkombo: Madam Chairperson, I am so humble that when others are speaking, I pay attention, as you know. I was listening to the debate of my younger brother, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs, who was trying to drive whatever point he was trying to drive home by bringing me into his debate. I am at sea. Is he in order to disturb an hon. Member, who is listening attentively, by mentioning my names against the rules of debate?


 I seek your ruling.


The Chairperson: It appears to me that the hon. Member for Mazabuka Central Parliamentary Constituency has a very special relationship with the hon. Minister of Home Affairs.


Hon. Members: Hear, hear!


The Chairperson: In any case, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs is making reference to Friday’s debate. It is in that regard that he mentioned the hon. Member of Parliament for Mazabuka Central Parliamentary Constituency. However, I take note of your special relationship. The hon. Minister of Home Affairs was just about to wind up debate.


You may continue.


Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, thank you for your guidance. Before the point of order was raised, I was saying that State House is a very important institution and that people working in that institution are public servants who are equally subject to scrutiny. If they do anything wrong, they can be subjected to the same legal processes as any other civil servant. Therefore, to level allegations against people who work in that institution on the Floor of this House without proof is very unfair. Hon. Members should refrain from making such innuendos.


Madam Chairperson, there is talk about how State House must treat corruption. How else can State House prove its commitment to the fight against corruption if its occupant could, against all odds, part company with some of his dependable members of his Cabinet? How much more can he show his commitment? Some of them were here. It was not his desire to let them go, but the State security agencies told him that they had issues with them. For the sake of transparency, because he is committed to the cause, he had to let them go against his wish. What more can a man do to prove his commitment to the fight against corruption?


Madam, the civil servants are being punished for wrongdoing not because of their ethnic inclinations. As leaders, we must stop misleading the nation. Everyone who occupies that office demands loyalty from all those who serve under him. On that score, there will be no compromise. Therefore, all those who serve in the Public Service must be loyal to His Excellency the President.


Madam Chairperson, I do not want to take up much time.


I thank you, Madam.


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


The Minister of Justice (Mr Lubinda): Madam Chairperson, thank you very much for allowing me to contribute to the debate on this very important Vote. It is a settled fact that State House and the presidency of any country is the epitome of nationhood. The presidency is the sanctity of any country.


The Chairperson: Order!


Business was suspended from 1640 hours until 1700 hours.





Mr Lubinda: Madam, when business was suspended, I was just saying that it is an agreed position on either side of the House that State House is a sanctified house. It is a house of decorum. Having said that, it is also an agreed fact that State House is occupied by human beings who are fallible and are open to criticism. Nonetheless, the fact that all of us swear to protect the Constitution of the land, and we swear in the name of the President, means that the Presidency in State House is precluded from unnecessary ridicule. Yes, we may criticise decisions made at State House, but I do not think anyone can give themselves the latitude to ridicule the occupant of State House. That is beneath the standing of any person who wishes to qualify to be regarded as an honourable person.


Madam Chairperson, having said this, I would like to reflect on some of the statements which were made by the hon. Members on the left. The first one is a very important statement made by the Leader of the Opposition, Hon. Jack Mwiimbu, when he talked about the essence of the “One Zambia, One Nation” theme. He said that:


“When Zambians meet outside, they perceive themselves as Zambians and they do not consider themselves otherwise.”


This is true and this is what is expected of every Zambian, particularly those Zambians who aspire to hold offices of leadership in the country. Unfortunately, the person who was saying that belongs to a club of people who take advantage of an opportunity to cast this country in disrepute every time they are outside the country. How many Zambians still recall the appearance of one Zambian on the British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC)’s Hard Talk programme on 26th July, 2018? What did the interviewer say to him? “You are showing a high level of bitterness against your country.”


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Lubinda: Is that being Zambian when others say you registering bitterness against your own country in a foreign land?


Hon. Government Members: Imagine!


Mr Lubinda: Is that patriotism?


Hon. Members: No!


Mr Lubinda: So, I would like to request Hon. Jack Mwiimbu, as he tries to use this House to lecture to others about morals and how to respect the “One Zambia, One Nation,” motto, that he ought to take an introspective view and speak to his colleagues and suggest to them –




Mr Lubinda: Had I been like the people on the other side, I would have responded, but I do not like to respond.


Ms Siliya: To empty tins!


Mr Lubinda: Thank you and, because of that, I will proceed.


Madam Chairperson, my good friend, Hon. Jack Mwiimbu, also said that instead of uniting the country, the Patriotic Front (PF) has the propensity to deliberately craft a policy that ensures that certain tribes in this country are marginalised.


Madam, it is a settled fact that to come to Parliament to make statements without a basis when you have sworn oath on this Floor is perjury. Since Hon. Jack Mwiimbu made this statement to the whole country, I challenge him to come and lay on the Table the policy of the PF Government which is ensuring that there is marginalisation of any particular tribe in the country. Where is that policy?


Hon. Opposition Members: It is an unwritten policy!


Mr Lubinda: I am hearing people say that it is an unwritten policy. I will come to that very soon.


Madam, several times, statements have been made that some people have been pruned from the Civil Service based on their tribe.


Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!


Mr Lubinda: The last time I addressed this matter, I asked my colleagues to lay on the Table a list showing the names of the people who are being ill-treated on the basis of tribe. It is totally beneath any person to come to Parliament to make such unfounded claims.


Somebody here spoke about fifty-six people who have been laid off.


Mr Sing’ombe: Sixty-three Sir!


Mr Lubinda: Looking at that list, would one tell where they are from? Are they from one region? To try to whip the psyche and emotions of the people based on tribalism is to be a tribalist oneself.


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Lubinda: Tribalism for some people runs through their veins and they must not use Parliament for that. This is a sanctified and respected House. Since people believe that everyone here takes oath in this House, and will stick to the truth and nothing but the truth, whatever we say here is taken to be the truth. Therefore, it is our duty to ensure that it is brought to the attention of society that those who are hell-bent on invoking tribal sentiments are tribalists. They must be known for what they are.


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, Hon. Kambwili spoke well about corruption and I agree with him, but we have to be careful. I have stated before that those of us in this House owe it to posterity to ensure that we fight corruption correctly and that we end corruption. That is our duty collectively. Instead of us singling out a few people and saying that we investigate them, my proposition has always been for those who have any evidence of corruption to, please, not hesitate to report to the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC).




Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Lubinda: In addition to that, not too long ago, I indicated that I have checked the annual declarations by some hon. Members of Parliament. Are they worth what is written in there?


Mr Mwiinga: Who told you to check?


Mr Lubinda: Some people are asking who told me to check. In case the hon. Members do not know, the law allows any citizen to check the declarations they make. So, if they make fictitious declarations, the people out there are checking.


Madam, on this score, at the moment, people are criticising this Government on its fight against corruption. They are criticising how this Government is treating the financial intelligence unit. Today, after a long wait, I am pleased to inform you and the country at large that the Financial Intelligence Centre of Zambia has been admitted, as a member, to the Edmonton Group of Financial Institutions and Financial Centres. We have qualified because of the efficacy with which we are fighting corruption. The whole world is watching, yet we trivialise the matter. That is totally unacceptable.


Madam Chairperson, Hon. Gary Nkombo spoke about Judges. Time and again, I have said that if there is any Government that is concerned about the delayed dispensation of justice in Zambia, it is this Government.


Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Lubinda: That is the reason this Government has gone ahead to employ even more Judges than its courtrooms can accommodate. Today, Judges are crammed in chambers. They are sharing chambers. We would like to employ more Judges but, if our hon. Colleagues do not support this Government by appropriating sufficient resources to the Judiciary for it to build more courtrooms, there is no way that Judges can be employed. We cannot have Judges who do not have courtrooms and chambers. However, over and above that, I would like to call all of us to order. Those Judges must not only be respected when they rule in favour. They must also be respected when they pass judgments which are not in our interests down to us.


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Lubinda: The propensity of calling Judges thieves behind wigs must come to an end because it reduces the decorum –


Madam Chairperson: Withdraw that term, hon. Minister. You know the rules. It is inappropriate.


Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, I am simply quoting.


Hon. Opposition Members: Withdraw!


Madam Chairperson: Just withdraw it.


Mr Lubinda: I withdraw the statement, Madam. I wish to call all of us to order to ensure that all of us respect the sanctity of the Judiciary.


Madam Chairperson, in conclusion, Hon. Jack Mwiimbu and Hon. Lufuma both made reference to the intolerance of people belonging to minority groups. I excuse the two of them because they were not members of a particular political party at the time when there was a heightened fight against minorities.


Madam, Her Honour the Vice-President was referred to as belonging to a minority group. Indeed, she was in a minority group until 2006 when she was hounded out of a certain political party because of her tribe.


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Lubinda: Many others such as President Edgar Lungu, Mr Sakwiba Sikota and I ...


Mr Nkombo interjected.


Mr Lubinda: ... were all chased with pangas, axes and spears by people who believed a certain political party belonged to them because it was a tribal party.


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Lubinda: Such people should question themselves when they start talking about tribalism because they practise it, and I would like to make sure that the Zambian people know all of us for what we are. Those who come to equity must come with clean hands. The people who hounded others out of a political party on the basis of tribe cannot expect to be listened to when they say they are fighting tribalism because they survive on tribalism.


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, you may recall that a senior citizen was almost killed on the basis of tribalism.


Hon. Opposition Members: Who?


Mr Lubinda: The senior citizen went to mourn his own brother, but Mr Vernon Mwaanga was sent to hospital simply because he did not support them,.


Hon. Government Members: Shame!


Mr Lubinda: He was injured on the basis of tribalism.


I would like to call on all my dear brothers and sisters to not use this House to divide the country. Instead, let us use to unite this country. That is our duty. To come here to trade tribalism is not acceptable.


I thank you, Madam Chairperson.


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


The Vice-President (Mrs Wina): Madam Chairperson, I thank you for this opportunity to wind up debate on this Motion and also thank all the hon. Members who have contributed to the debate on the Vote for State House. I want to thank Hon. Mwiimbu, Hon. Nkombo, Hon. Kambwili, Hon. Ngulube, Hon. Bwalya, Hon. Lufuma, Hon. Kampyongo and Hon. Lubinda for their contributions.


Madam, we have taken note of the issues of the appointment of more Judges, access to State House by hon. Members of Parliament, the Presidency and the need to respect the sanctity and integrity of the office, and the need for the Zambia Police Service to be more professional. However, accusations of corruption and tribal appointments or dismissals are issues that have been brought to the Floor of this House without evidence. I would like politicians to take the counsel that has been given on the Floor of the House, today, to stop dividing our people on the basis of tribe.


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


The Vice-President: It looks like the politicians in this country are the real vanguards of tribalism, and this should not be allowed by all peace-loving Zambians. I am grateful for all the contributions.


I thank you, Madam Chairperson.


Vote 01/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.


VOTE 01/02 – (Office of the President – State House – Finance Department – Nil).


Madam Chairperson: Your Honour the Vice-President, there is no allocation for this Head. Is there an explanation? Is there any reason why Head 01/02, Office of the President – State House – Finance Department – Nil has no allocation?




Madam Chairperson: State House.




Madam Chairperson: Hon. Minister at State House, do you have an answer?


Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!




Madam Chairperson: Office of the Vice-President, is there a response?


The Minister in the Vice-President’s Office (Mrs Chalikosa): Madam Speaker, initially –


Mr Sikazwe rose.


Mrs Chalikosa resumed her seat.


The Minister of Presidential Affairs (Mr Sikazwe): It is okay, go ahead.




Mr Sikazwe: Madam Chairperson, the provision is required to pay emoluments for officers in Division 1.


Madam Chairperson: There is no provision.




Madam Chairperson: Head 01/02, Office of the President – State House – Finance Department – Nil.


Mr Sikazwe: Madam Speaker, this was moved to Vote 01/01.


I thank you, Madam.


Hon. Opposition Members: To where?


Madam Chairperson: Head total –


Mr Nkombo: Madam.


Madam Chairperson: You have to indicate. You know that.


Mr Nkombo: The microphone was down.


Madam Chairperson: We have passed Vote 01/01. We are now dealing with Vote 01/02 and there is no allocation. So, Hon. Nkombo, I do not know what you want to ask about.


Mr Nkombo: Madam Chairperson, I can show you what I want to ask about.


Madam, the hon. Minister indicated that the monies have been moved to another Vote. Why has this budget line been left if this money has been moved to another Vote?


Mr Sikazwe: Madam Chairperson, if you check in the Yellow Book, it contains figures from last year. We had to indicate what was there last year.


I thank you, Madam.




Vote 01/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.


VOTE 02/01 – (Office of the Vice-PresidentHuman Resource and Administration – K54,848,603).


The Chairperson: Her Honour the Vice-President will issue one statement for the Office of the Vice-President and Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit.


The Vice-President: Madam Chairperson, I rise to present the Estimates of Expenditure for the Office of the Vice-President for 2019.


Madam Chairperson, I wish to remind the hon. Members of Parliament to take into account, as they debate, the fact that the Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure for 2019 have been prepared taking into account strategic documents such as the Seventh National Development Plan (7NDP) and the Vision 2030.


Madam Chairperson, hon. Members will realise that there are some reductions in budgetary allocations to certain programmes and activities resulting from the change in the strategic focus of the Government, as guided by the 7NDP and the thrust of the Budget Speech by the hon. Minister of Finance. In this regard, there is a need for an enhanced co-ordination framework to actualise the strategic development objectives of the plan.


Madam Chairperson, the Office of the Vice-President is a constitutional office established under Article 110(1) of the Republican Constitution. The statutory functions of the Office of the Vice-President are revised from Government Gazette Notice No.836 of March, 2016, and are outlined as follows:


(a)     Parliamentary Business;


(b)     Disaster and Drought Mitigation; and


(c)     Resettlement;


In addition, the Office of the Vice-President will continue playing its role of co-ordinating and encouraging multi-sectoral collaboration in order to realise the objectives set in the 2019 National Budget.


Madam Chairperson, in terms of organisation, the Office of the Vice-President comprises the following:

  1. Human Resource and Administration Department;



  1. Parliamentary Business Division;


  1. Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit;


  1. Department of Resettlement;


  1. Planning and Information Department; and


  1. Finance Department.


Madam Chairperson, the Parliamentary Business Division assists the Leader of Government Business in the House to co-ordinate Government business and plays the pivotal role of liaison between the Executive and the Legislature in order to enhance accountability of the Executive to the Legislature for the promotion of good governance. In line with its mission, the division will, in 2019, continue with its core mandate of co-ordinating Government Business in Parliament by expeditiously processing responses to all parliamentary oversight instruments such as Questions for Oral Answer, Written Replies to Questions, Committee reports, Bills, Motions and ministerial statements. Further, the division will strengthen its monetary and evaluation of the implementation of Government assurances highlighted in various parliamentary oversight instruments, such as Action-Taken Reports, Responses to Parliamentary Questions and ministerial statements.


Madam Chairperson, the resettlement function is managed through the Department of Resettlement. The objective of the department is to resettle targeted citizens, both on voluntary and involuntary basis, in order to provide them with an alternative livelihood while uplifting the living standards of rural communities.


Madam Chairperson, during the past three years, the department successfully acquired seven blocks of land for resettlement purposes in six districts located in five provinces, totaling 96,308 hectares. The districts where land was acquired include Ngabwe, Mafinga, Rufunsa, Kaoma and Kalumbila.


Madam Chairperson, demand for resettlement has continued to increase, with 25,828 applications received in the same period compared to 20,186 applications received during the same period in the 2014/2016 period. Women applicants constituted about 39 per cent.


Madam Chairperson, a total of 4,130 farm plots were demarcated during the period under review, and 5,885 individuals, of which 28 per cent were women, were allocated land. This low percentage of farm plots allocated to women was attributed to fewer women applicants although the National Resettlement Policy of 2015 provides for equal allocation of farm plots to men and women. Further, 138 km of access road network were cleared, with 68 km graded. A total of 161 boreholes were drilled and equipped with hand pumps, while seventy-three broken down boreholes were rehabilitated in various resettlement schemes countrywide. In addition, nine clinics, seven classroom blocks, eleven staff houses and seven ventilated-improved (VIP) latrines were completed. Up to 3,148 settlers were recommended to the Commissioner of Lands for issuance of title deeds.


Madam Chairperson, coming to the 2019 Budget, the Department of Resettlement has been allocated K2,733,962 which represents an increase of about 17.8 per cent from the 2018 approved allocation. Given the high demand for resettlement by citizens, the Office of the Vice-President, Department of Resettlement, in particular, shall focus on meeting efforts to acquire more land for resettlement purposes in 2019 in order to satisfy the demand for land. In addition, the office shall optimise the introduction of cluster advisory groups to maximise service delivery to settlers and revamp resettlement schemes to be hubs for job creation to cover mainly the youth, in line with the provisions of the 7NDP.


Madam Chairperson, the Government will continue to locally integrate former refugees who have opted to stay in Zambia, in accordance with the provisions of existing laws, in line with the President of the Republic of Zambia’s commitment at the 2016 New York Declaration. To this effect, the Office of the Vice-President is committed to implementing sustainable resettlement programmes with our co-operating partners to ensure that communities in and around the targeted resettlement schemes have access to basic infrastructure, social services and sustainable economic opportunities.


Madam Chairperson, in addition, the Government will endeavour to make resettlement communities tolerant, inclusive and integrated with the surrounding host communities, thereby enabling people to live in peace and harmony.


Madam Chairperson, my office is also charged with the responsibility of disaster management and mitigation. I wish to inform the House that Vote 19 has migrated from the Activity-Based Budget to the Output-Based Budget in order to maximise the effective use of resources to the benefit of our vulnerable community. During the 2018 Financial Year, the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU) was allocated a total of K54,487,820 for both personal emoluments and non-personal emoluments. However, in accordance with the austerity measures and the principle of decentralising disaster management to provinces and districts, the allocation for 2019 has been reduced by almost 50 per cent to K27,872,298. The 2018 allocation facilitated the implementation of a number of key programmes and activities, in line with my office’s mandate. However, the implementation of the programmes posed a number of challenges, given the budgetary constraints. Notable among the programmes implemented include:


  1. response to the cholera outbreak during the 2017/2018 Rainy Season;


  1. continued operationalisation of the Disaster Risk Management Framework and Community-based Disaster Risk Management Facilitation Manual in collaboration with key stakeholders in order to build community resilience;


  1. attendence to emergencies through the activation of response and recovery action-plans that were developed;


  1. rehabilitation of critical infrastructure such as bridges,culverts, markets and schools, in some areas;


  1. emergency construction of market infrastructure in conjunction with critical stakeholders such as the Ministry of Housing and Infrastructure Development, Ministry of Defence, the Zambia Army and the Zambia National Service (ZNS) and the Ministry of Local Government, in line with the Build Back Better Principle espoused in the Sendai Framework for Disaster Risk Reduction 2015-2030.


Madam Chairperson, the programmes and activities implemented by the DMMU ultimately contributed towards poverty and vulnerability reduction by reducing communities’ exposure to hazards. Allow me to take this opportunity to thank all our co-operating partners for the support rendered in supplementing the Government’s efforts in the implementation of its programmes.


Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!


The Vice-President: Madam Chairperson, for 2019, as I said earlier, the DMMU has been allocated K27,872,298 for both personal emoluments and non-personal emoluments. Under the Output-Based Budget, this allocation will be utilised on three main programmes, namely:


Disaster Risk Management


Under this programme, the output will be:


  1. enhanced community resilience;


  1. reduced occurrence of disasters; and


  1. improved community adaptive capacity.


Disaster and Humanitarian Operations Management


Under this programme the output will be:


  1. effective and timely response to emergencies;


  1. timely delivery of disaster response and reconstruction;


  1. adequate and prompt assessment of damages and identification of needs at all levels.


Management Support Services


Under this programme, the focus will be on ensuring prudent management of resources.


Madam Chairperson, the implementation of the above programmes to achieve the related outputs will contribute to the reduction of poverty and vulnerability in various communities of our country in accordance with the 7NDP 2017-2021.


Madam Chairperson, given the oversight and co-ordination function, my office has established the Planning and Information Department in the Office of the Vice-President which is responsible for co-ordination and liaison on Cabinet and Parliamentary matters and matters from ministries, provinces and spending agencies. In order to operationalise the department, the 2018 Budget has only a budget line on general administration, while the other functions were budgeted for under Human Resource and Administration. Following the granting of Treasury authority for the recruitment of staff under the Planning and Information Department, the planning functions under the Human Resource Department have all been moved to the Department of Planning and Information with a total budget allocation of K1,950,620. This allocation will enhance co-ordination and collaboration with various strategic stakeholders in attaining its own objectives and goals set for 2019.


Madam Chairperson, I wish to urge all hon. Members to support this budget.


I thank you.


Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Madam Chairperson, I just want to make a comment in support of the budget line, specifically for disaster management which is under the Office of the Vice-President.


Madam Chairperson, we are seated here, representing people from various sections of society. I believe that there is no person on earth who has a mark on his/her body, indicating where he/she belongs. This means that the issue of belonging is abstract. It has no tangible sign. Disasters mostly affect the vulnerable. However, to cut the story short, we need to discover more lexis for the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU).There must be enhanced vocabulary so that the picture of the word ‘disaster’ depicts the practical part of it.


Madam, the Chairperson of the Disaster Committee is the District Commissioner (DC) who happens to belong to a grouping. However, a holder of this position should not belong to any grouping. However, on the ground, the deeds and utterances of the person occupying this position will indicate where he/she belongs. It is very disappointing, disheartening and inhuman because people who occupy these positions forget that they have to serve the public regardless of where they belong. Reading through the Budget, one realises that there is no distinction or indication of any regional, political, ethnic or religious grouping.


Madam Chairperson, in my constituency, we have a problem with the DMMU. Many people are not served because they are perceived to belong to some political grouping. I am ready to sacrifice fuel to transport any person who wants to argue against what I am saying to Ndoka. There is an allocation under the DMMU for food relief and food for work. However, people have to be scrutinised before they can benefit from both type of aid. One is asked where he/she belongs or comes from, but are such questions important? There is nothing I can do. The only way I can prove a fact is by stating it. Apart from stating the truth, there is no mark that can grow on my body to show that what I am saying is true or not.


 Therefore, I would like to urge Her Honour the Vice-President to advise the DCs, …


Mr Muchima: Cadres.


Mr Miyutu: … especially those where I come from, that they do not hold those positions because of politics. What came first was the need to serve the people and, I believe, politics came later. It is just a hidden activity within the community. Therefore, people need to be served, as they deserve. People should not be asked which party they belong to in relation to the DMMU. Discrimination is not good.


Madam Chairperson, I am sure Her Honour the Vice-President is aware about the culvert or crossing point in the Western Province which is very important. Unless by other means, one cannot reach Nalolo without passing through this crossing point.


Mr Muchima: By chopper.


Ms Lubezhi: She flies.


Mr Miyutu: That culvert is always manned by the DMMU but, of late, it has become very difficult to cross it. This is October. We are heading towards December and January and that culvert will be washed away. So, at other disaster does the Government want? We want disaster management and mitigation that is all-embracing and non-discriminatory towards any grouping. It should look at real issues so that the people are well served.


Madam Chairperson, I have seen that there are liabilities of about K2 million which means that the Government will have to pay using taxpayer’s money. However, out there, the language is about the Patriotic Front (PF). A man walked 45 km from Ndoka to take reports to the provincial administration and what happened thereafter was assessment of belonging.


Madam, I have a request, and the good part about a request is that it is up to the receiver to either receive it or not. However, if it is not received, then, the suffering will be doubled or will become perpetual. We are used to being served by the DMMU. Therefore, we are crying to it to serve the people well. I will not go very far. I think this is enough.


Madam, I support this budget for the sake of the vulnerable people who always experience disasters such as floods and drought. We do not know how the weather will be. We may experience either drought or excessive floods in the Western Province. Therefore, we are at the Government’s mercy. It is up to the Government to receive us or not.


Thank you, Madam Chairperson.


Ms Lubezhi: Hear, hear!


Mr Mbangweta (Nkeyema): Madam Chairperson, thank you for the opportunity to debate this Motion. I want to reflect on three issues. The first one relates to disaster management.


Madam Chairperson, first of all, the challenge we have in this House is that every year, we sit to approve the Budget whose funding finally does not come to fruition. We are currently considering the budget for the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU), but what was approved last year has not been funded to a greater extent, and amounts have been reduced in the new year. Therefore, in effect, a number of us are holding grudges against the department. When I came into Parliament, the department was willing to roof three schools in my constituency, but it has not been capacitated to do that. Therefore, since the amount has been reduced this year, it means that it will not do what it was supposed to do, and will not even be able to attend to disasters which are likely to happen.


Madam, even though this Government wishes to pat itself on the back for high performance, under normal circumstances, these are the areas it should put more emphasis on. Disasters happen in various areas and they cannot be predicted. So, it is better for the DMMU to carry out its work and resolve these issues.


Madam Chairperson, imagine how the people of Sishamba feel that a roof for a classroom, which was blown off in 2015 has still not been repaired. Therefore, how can this Government say it is performing highly when we have such situations? The people in that area also pay taxes just like many other people and I do. Today, we are seated here looking at a reduced allocation to this institution for next year. What will this Government tell the people who need the assistance of the DMMU? There are District Commissioners (DCs) and other Government institutions across there, but the people are still suffering.


 Madam Chairperson, if I had my way, this is one department in the Government circles which I would ensure to fund fully because, at least, it tries to perform even if it does not have the required support. Therefore, talking about the importance of this unit has just become a song. When one goes to the department’s offices, he/she finds competent officers there, but just upsets them by explaining his/her problems because they do not have the means to carry out their job.


Madam Chairperson, I support the budget for this unit but if, it were possible, it should be given further financial support. The Ministry of Finance should fund the activities which are approved under this unit, including the plan for this year which is still being carried out. It is better to clear the deck than carry things forward.


Madam Chairperson, the DMMU should not only attend to people who go to its offices every other day or discriminate against other people. There should not be discrimination because we all pay taxes. When the loans that the Government has contracted are due, it is our children who will pay them back. So, when we do not get the development that we require, it means we are subsidising the development of other people, which should not be the case.


Madam Chairperson, I now come to the issue of resettlement. This department is not working to the required standard. In Nkeyema, we have a resettlement scheme and, as the area Member of Parliament, I am supposed to be a member of the committee at the provincial level. The councillors and council secretary are supposed to be members of this committee according to the National Resettlement Policy. However, since I became a Member of Parliament, I have never attended a meeting of this committee. It is no wonder that there is no development in the resettlement scheme in Nkeyema. So, as we approve money for this office, we should encourage it to work and implement the activities as espoused in the national policy.


Finally, Madam Chairperson, allow me to comment on the division that deals with the Business of the House. I would request Her Honour the Vice-President to prevail on her colleagues, the hon. Ministers. When they come here, let them give answers which are helpful to the Zambian people. They should not tell us things which do not help us or make assurances which they know that they will not fulfil. Last week, I gave an example here of what I thought should not happen in this House and other examples abound. Therefore, I think our request is that when we ask questions here, they must be answered with the gravity deserved because we are doing so on behalf of the Zambian people. We are not asking on our own behalf. So, we cannot be given answers which make us appear to not know what we are doing. The fact is that we do.


I thank you very much, Madam Chairperson.


Mr Mung’andu (Chama South): Madam Chairperson, thank you for allowing the voice of Chama South to contribute to the debate on the estimates of expenditure and revenue for the Office of the Vice-President. When we look at the amount allocated to this important office, we acknowledge that we are implementing an austerity budget. However, if you look at the needs, particularly to do with disaster mitigation, I know that it is not only Chama South, a constituency which lies in the valley, which needs assistance in this regard.


 Madam Chairperson, just two days ago, the northern part of this country, including Chama District, started receiving rainfall. There is a primary school called Chitukula Primary School whose roof was blown off completely because of the heavy rains. It is the Office of the Vice-President that is supposed to come to the rescue of the pupils in that area.


Madam, as if that were not enough, the entire Chama District is a game management area (GMA). This simply means that the people in this district are ever in conflict with wild animals. The people of Kankhomba in Chief Chikwa’s area have lost their crops to wild animals, particularly elephants. It is this office that is expected to deliver relief food to our people. Looking at the amount that has been allocated, I feel that sooner rather than later, the hon. Minister of Finance should consider bringing a supplementary budget to support this office.


Mr Kambita: Where will she get the money?


Mr Mung’andu: Madam Chairperson, the previous speaker highlighted the fact that there is a problem with the operations of the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU). However, this stems from the low estimates of expenditure allocated such as what we are about to approve. Just to take relief food to our people − and I know this not only in my constituency, it costs a lot of money because some of the food has to be transported from places where it is in abundance, which might be about 1,000 km away from Chama District. I know that this situation also prevails in Nabwalya and other valley areas. So, this activity needs a lot of money.


Madam Chairperson, there are two schools in my constituency which had roofs of classrooms blown off about four years ago. In this regard, I asked a Question on the Order Paper two years ago when I was just elected area Member of Parliament. The hon. Minister of General Education then, Dr Wanchinga, promised that something would be done about this.




Mr Mung’andu: To date, the roof at Pondo School has not been repaired and it has started raining in Muchinga Province.


Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Mung’andu: It has started raining in Chama and this means pupils have to close school in January. For the past three years, pupils at Pondo Primary do not go to school during the rainy season.


Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Kambita: Ema Backbenchers aba.


Mr Mung’andu: The hon. Minister in the Office of the Vice-President visited Chimphamba School which also had its roof blown off. When she came back from there, our people saw her donating roofing sheets and other materials in Mwembezhi Constituency. They said to me, “Hon. Member, what wrong have we done?


Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!




Mr Mung’andu: The hon. Minister was here and he saw our plight.” This school has been in this condition for the past three to four years. In Mwembezhi, a school had its roof blown off yesterday and the hon. Minister has already attended to that problem. These are the issues we need to bring to the Floor of this House.


Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Mung’andu: I know that it is the responsibility of the Office of Her Honour the Vice-President, through the DMMU, to attend to these emergencies.


Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Mung’andu: I have personally gone to the DMMU to present these challenges, both verbally and in writing. Where has the problem been? The problem has to do with the budget. The people of Chama South feel that the Office of the Vice-President, through the DMMU, should strengthen the interaction between the offices of the District Commissioners (DCs) and the offices of hon. Members of Parliament. Why do I say this? At district level, the person who represents the DMMU is the DC. At the moment, if we were to go to our DCs to ask them to give us an inventory of the challenges that need a response from the DMMU, very few of them would give us a comprehensive list, ...


Hon. UPND Members: You are right!


Mr Mung’andu: ... yet, the escalation of the problem starts with them. It is them who need to identify the challenges that the districts are faced with and forward them to the provinces. We have provincial disaster co-ordinating committees.


Madam Chairperson, as I support these estimates, I submit that the expenditure under this Vote is extremely low, considering that we are likely to face extreme weather this year. I have just given an example of what happened in Chiukula two days ago. I have pictures of the destrcution. I came from there yesterday. A classroom has no roof at that school. Chimpamba School poses another challenge. Pondo is also another challenge. These are issues I have submitted before.


Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Mung’andu: I know that we have capable men and women in the Office of the Vice-President under the DMMU. However, the only challenge is that of funding. Even they can tell us that it is the funding.


Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Mung’andu: Madam Chairperson, in January last year, Chama South experienced serious floods. I am happy to report that the working Government ...


Hon. UPND Members: Ah!


Mr Mung’andu: ... of His Excellency the President, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, responded favourably.


Madam Chairperson, helicopters landed not only in Chama North, but also Chama South to assess the damage. Iron sheets and tents were provided to the victims. To date, some people are still living in those tents. For such aid to be provided, the department needs funding.


Madam Chairperson, resettlement is another area that is very important under this Vote. We have talked about diversifying the economy from copper to agriculture. If one went to Muchinga, the province where I come from, he/she would be amazed at the potential that lies in livestock production. From Shiwang’andu to Nakonde to Chama, we have very good pastoral land. If the DMMU or the Office of the Vice-President surveyed the land, demarcated it and allocated it to youths, we would help them not only in Muchinga, but also the entire country because land resettlement involves all the citizens of this country.


Madam, there are youths who are hands-on in animal husbandry. The Government should get skilled youths from the Southern Province, for example, and take them to Muchinga Province to train the youths there. I know that a number of people from Muchinga have not been brought up in a set up where they can look after animals. Skills can be transferred from the Southern Province, the Western Province and other provinces where youths have been trained in animal care to other provinces where these skills are needed so that the youths there can become economically independent.


Madam Chairperson, I have referred to the Southern Province because I believe it is the only province that has economically independent youths ...


Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Mung’andu: ... and it is the only province that I feel is more developed than other provinces.


Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Mung’andu: This is a fact. The Southern Province is developed because infrastructure was taken there to support independent activities such as rearing of livestock. The transfer of skills has to be done in other provinces, through the Vice-President’s Office, under the resettlement programme. Animal husbandry skills should be introduced to youths in Muchinga Province and Luapula Province. I was shocked when I went to Luapula and saw the untapped water bodies there. If the Office of the Vice-President is supported through the Resettlement Programme, we should introduce livestock in those areas and make our people there economically independent.


Madam Chairperson, lastly, it is the wish and hope of the people of Chama South that this budget helps the people of Kankomba, Mapamba and Tembwe, who have lost their crops to wild animals, get relief food.


Madam Chairperson, with these few remarks, I support the estimates of revenue and expenditure.


I thank you, Madam.


Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Muchima (Ikeleng’i): Madam Chairperson, thank you for giving me an opportunity to debate the Vote for the Vice-President and the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU).


Madam Chairperson, to be effective, you need to be efficient. Those who have said that they will support this Vote, maybe, have hope. Personally, I would not support the Vote because I have not seen the effectiveness of this office. Like Her Honour the Vice-President put it, the Office of the Vice-President is supposed to co-ordinate all the activities of the citizenry. However, what I have seen is that this office is more political than co-ordinative.


Madam Chairperson, as I stand here, today, I have brought issues –


The Chairperson: Order!


Business was suspended from 1810 hours until 1830 hours.





Mr Muchima: Madam Chairperson, before business was suspended, I was saying that the Office of the Vice-President is key to the co-ordination of programmes and activities in the country. I listened carefully to the statement by Her Honour the Vice-President. It talked about vulnerability of our poor people in the country. I consider the Office of the Vice-President a focal point for national development. It is the Office of the Vice-President that is supposed to co-ordinate the activities of all the rural areas. This responsibility has been made easier because the Office of the Vice-President can gather information about other parts of the country through this Parliament.


Madam Chairperson, when we speak, we do so on behalf the people. I cannot stand here and pretend that all is well. Things are not well in this country.


Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Muchima: Madam Chairperson, poverty levels have risen. People are failing to manage their lives. What hurts me most is seeing the Office of the Vice-President being active when there is a by-election. Relief maize is distributed during that time. When there is no by-election, the Office of the Vice-President is completely dormant and only concentrates on the activities of the Patriotic Front (PF). There is no co-ordination of activities in the country.


The Office of the Vice-President is supposed to sniff whatever is happening in every corner of the country. We come here to talk about issues affecting our people, but we are not listened to. I concur with my colleague from Chama South Parliamentary Constituency that classrooms have had their roofs blown off and bridges have been washed away.


Madam Chairperson, there are schools which people have reported about like I have been reporting about schools in Ikeleng’i. Since the PF came into power, it has never paid particular attention to a school with only two classroom blocks and another whose roof was blown off and the building collapsed. The PF cannot even release K150,000. What, then, is the point of having the DMMU? What is its role? When a bridge is washed away, people fail to go to hospitals. Pregnant women die while giving birth on the way to the hospital because of a poor road network which hinders ambulances from reaching such areas, yet, there is the DMMU in place. The DMMU used to work when the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) was in power. However, when the PF came into power, disaster management shifted to the Ministry of Home Affairs, which is currently a disaster.


Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Muchima: Madam Chairperson, at the moment, the PF, itself, is a disaster because it is failing to co-ordinate the activities of this country. The Vice-President’s Office is supposed to know exactly what is happening in the corners. It is supposed to have statistics of all parts of the country. When we look at the numbers here, we should say, “Indeed, the Office of the Vice-President is representative of His Excellency the President.” In Ikeleng’i today, all the buildings which were coming up are at a standstill, yet I am expected to come here to say that the PF is working and delivering. To whom is it delivering?




Mr Muchima: Madam Chairperson, if the PF is delivering to itself, it should not say that the PF is delivering to Zambia. It must say that it is delivering to itself. However, I can tell you that it is not all the PF Members whose constituencies are covered by the DMMU. However, because of intimidation, most of its members are scared of talking about some of these things. The Government is not delivering. The Vice-President’s office is key. This office should cover all parts of the country. We have debated the budget for this office before, but we do not see these issues being addressed. How can a school have only two classroom blocks? There are 800 pupils sharing two classrooms. This shows that the Office of the Vice-President has no presence in that area.


However, if there is a ka by-election for a ka councillor, you will see a helicopter going to that area and a lot of money will be spent, yet the Government is failing to address the issue of a school or classroom. To make matters worse, the Government, through the Ministry of Community Development and Social Welfare, allows even the little money, in particular the Social Cash Transfer Scheme, to be distributed during campaigns. This has to stop completely. This country will have to account for every ngwee. We need to see the hon. Ministers co-ordinating these programmes. This office is very critical to Zambians. The DMMU should go to where a bridge has been washed away and address the issue. There is confusion. The DMMU says that works should be carried out by the ministry concerned and the ministry will also say it is the DMMU that has the money. The Government will say it has no money, yet it has money for by-elections.


Madam Chairperson, in case you do not know, people are crying, except me. I do not have tears because I am here representing the people.


Mr Kampyongo: And you are looking well.


Mr Lubinda: Borrow from your friends behind you.


Mr Kampyongo: And you look well.


Mr Muchima: Madam Chairperson, there is a lot of segregation − I cannot borrow tears. I want to borrow the hard tears from you.




Mr Muchima: Madam Chairperson, the role of the District Commissioners (DCs) is to co-ordinate activities of the Office of the Vice-President, yet officers from that office are unable to travel because of a lack of resources. The DCs have lost their fame in the country. They are being used just like any other party cadre. Their role is now to mobilise and campaign for the party in power, yet they draw salaries from the Civil Service payroll, which is very unfortunate.


Madam Chairperson, you talked about how people should not be exposed to hazardous situations. If, for five, six or eight years, we have been talking and our concerns are not being addressed why, then, should we allocate money to these offices? These are some of the issues that need to be addressed. For example, the food distribution exercise should be taken to wherever there is a need for it. I am not saying that it should come to my village. The DMMU should go to every corner of this country. I talked about Nyakaseya, Chinyajhi, Kafweku. The other day, I went to the office of the hon. Minister of General Education office because the Grade 7s and Grade 9s cannot write their examinations because there is no classroom block to write from. One hundred and fifty pupils have nowhere to write examinations from and people are standing on anthills, saying they are working and doing fine. Where are they doing fine?


Madam Chairperson, help us. There is a big difference between the way the MMD managed the nation and the way the PF is managing it. There is a big difference. People now wish the MMD could come back to power, but it is the United Party for National Development (UPND) that will come into power. We have to reverse and correct things for all Zambians, including yourselves.


Mr Kampyongo: That is wishful thinking.


Mrs M. Phiri: MMD? That is wishful thinking.


Mr Muchima: Madam, when the Government practices segregation, it should also exempt us from paying tax. Only those who benefit from the taxes paid should pay tax. We should be exempted from paying tax because we are not benefitting anything from them. There is nothing happening at all. I would like to urge the hon. Minister to come with me on a tour to Ikeleng’i, Mwinilunga, and Solwezi. There is nothing happening there.




Mr Muchima: Madam Chairperson, Her Honour the Vice-President should undertake a tour to the rural parts of the country, not abroad for meetings. We want meetings in Nyakaseya, Ikeleng’i and Kaleni so that we can share with her the problems that we are facing. There is no Panadol in hospitals. This is the information that is supposed to come to the Office of the Vice-President so that she can press the hon. Minister of Health on why there is no panadol in these hospitals. If Her Honour the Vice-President is being told that everything is well, I am telling her that nothing is well. There are no medicines in hospitals and equipment is not functioning well. There is a big problem. With the hikes in prices of commodities, there is a disaster. There are issues that the Office of the Vice-President needs to address for us to recognise and support it.


Madam Chairperson, the hammer mills are meant for the poor people in society. However, they ended up in the hands of PF cadres. Meanwhile, the Office of the Vice-President is watching idly. It cannot intervene and point out the wrongs. Hammer mills are supposed to be distributed equally among all Zambians, but the distribution is one-sided. Instead, everything is shared on the basis of party affiliation. The PF asks questions like, “Who are you? Where do you come from?” Such are the issues which the Office of the Vice-President should address.


We are watching. There is a real disaster. The Office of the Vice-President is key. There are some hon. Ministers seated next to Her Honour the Vice-President who are happy because their roads and everything else have been worked on. For us the in rural the parts –


Hon. Opposition Members: We know him!


Mr Muchima: We know him very well. I will not mention the name. The tarred road goes up to his doorstep. The little money raised from taxes should reach Kaputa and Ikeleng’i. It should reach –


Mr Lubinda: Drink water!


Mr Muchima: I will not drink water. I want to tell you –


Mr Lubinda: No. I am talking to Jack, not you.


Mr Muchima: I am also not talking to you.




Mr Muchima: Madam Chairperson, if the DMMU wants us to support its budget, I am appealing to it to be effective in every corner of this country. Using the Office of the Vice-President, which is the second highest office, the it should co-ordinate activities meant for the people in rural areas. Otherwise, at the moment, the situation is terrible and people are regretting having voted the PF into office.


I thank you, Madam.


Mr Lubinda: Muchima! Muchima!


Mr Muchima: Hello!


Mr Lubinda: What did you just say?


Madam Chairperson: Order, hon. Minister of Justice!


The Minister in the Office of the Vice-President (Ms Chalikosa): Madam Chairperson, we appreciate all the contributions that we have received from all the people who have debated on this Vote. It is true that when the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU) is faced with a disaster situation, it relies on information that comes from the District Disaster Management Committees (DDMC) whose chairperson is the District Commissioner (DC).


Hon. Miyutu insinuated that the DC for Kalabo is segregative and suggested that we enhance our vocabulary. Maybe, it should be ‘unenhanced’ because he has not brought that report officially to the Office of the Vice-President. We are not aware about the conduct of the DC.


Mr Lubinda: Did he ever come?


Ms Chalikosa: In terms of the culverts that he is talking about, we have captured that in our data base, as we have done many other issues that are still outstanding from as far back as 2012, 2013, 2014 and beyond. I have a schedule of where we have started making amends by working on damaged infrastructure. At the moment, we are trying to see whether we can surrender some of that work back to the line ministries. It is a discussion which is within the Government. The idea is for the line ministries to incorporate the budget for the maintenance into infrastructure development.


Madam, out of interest, let me move province by province. In the education sector, we have spent about K2,252,620 in trying to refurbish the damaged infrastructure. What is outstanding, at the moment, is in the road sector, bridges and culverts. We have the names of the towns and villages in the districts where infrastructure has been damaged. We are working on it slowly as and when funds are made available. We now depend heavily on the contingency funds because the allocation to the DMMU Vote has been reduced.


 You may wish to know that we have moved away from the Activity-Based Budget to an Output-Based Budget which will prioritise the services which the Government will render. When the money is received, it is used as best as we can on the disasters in the affected areas.


Madam Chairperson, we also responded to the disasters resulting from hail storms in the form of food distribution. Some of the districts which were affected were Chongwe, Luangwa, Solwezi, Mwinilunga, Chavuma, Kaputa, Kasama and Chilubi. It is an on-going process. When we have the funding available, we respond within the available means. We would like to appeal to everyone to come on board and assist with ideas on how we can improve on service delivery.


I thank you, Madam.


Madam Chairperson: Order!


We will now go into individual items and we will start with Vote 02/01 under the Activity-Based Budget. For your information, hon. Members, the budget for disaster management is in the booklet. This is the Output-Based Budget and I believe that every hon. Member has a copy.


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


Votes 02/01, 02/03, 02/04, 02/04, 02/05, 02/06, 19/01, 19/02 and 19/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.


Vote 03/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.


VOTE 06 – (Civil Service Commission – Office of the President – Headquarters – K11,785,787).


The Vice-President: Madam Chairperson, I wish to thank you for giving me this opportunity, again, to present the 2019 Budget for the Civil Service Commission. The Civil Service Commission is a constitutional and statutory body responsible for appointments, promotions, discipline and separation of personnel in the Civil Service, in accordance with prescribed guidelines and procedures.


Madam Chairperson, following the enactment of the Constitution Amendment Act No. 2 of 2016 and the Service Commission Act No. 10 of 2016, the Civil Service Commission has been transformed into an independent regulatory and advisory body mandated to provide oversight on human resource management in the Civil Service. In the exercise of its functions under its jurisdiction, the Civil Service Commission is not subject to the direction or control of any other person or authority other than the appointing authority.


Madam, in line with its portfolio functions, the overarching focus of the Civil Service Commission is to provide strategic policy direction and leadership in the management of human resources in the Civil Service for enhanced service delivery. The Civil Service Commission is charged with the responsibility of human resource management in the Civil Service, as provided for in the Constitution Amendment Act No. 2 of 2016 and the Service Commission Act No. 10 of 2016 which are to:


  1. advise the President on appointment of the Secretary to the Cabinet, the Secretary to the Treasury; and Permanent Secretaries;


  1. second, regrade, transfer and separate employees;


  1. facilitate the transfer of employees across the service commissions;


  1. transfer employees from one Government institution to another;


  1. monitor and evaluate the enforcement of delegated functions;


  1. authorise the withholding, reduction, deferment or suspension of salaries;


  1. hear and determine complaints and appeals from employees;


  1. set and promote a code of ethics and human resource management principles and values; and


  1. establish standards and guidelines.


Madam Chairperson, in relation to the overview of the 2018 performance, during the period under review, the Civil Service Commission was funded the sum of K11,192,880 to execute a number of programmes guided by its functions, as outlined in the Constitution Amendment Act No. 2 of 2016 and the Service Commission Act No. 10 of 2016.


To this effect, the Civil Service Commission:


  1. facilitated the appointments of over 3,404 officers to the Civil Service;


  1. confirmed, in appointment, over 1,643 officers;


  1. retired 160 officers in various salary scales across the Civil Service;


  1. processed transfer cases of over 701 officers across the Civil Service;


  1. promoted 607 officers to various positions within the Civil Service;


  1. reactivated 907 positions at various levels which were frozen on the Payroll Management and Establishment Control (PMEC) system;


  1. processed over 150 disciplinary cases during the year under review;


  1. dismissed fifteen officers who were cited in the Auditor-General’s Report of 2017 for fraudulent and false accounting, broken down as follows:


  1. seven officers from the Ministry of General Education;


  1. four officers from the Lusaka Province Provincial Administration; and


  1. four officers from the Ministry Housing of Infrastructure Development. 


Madam Chairperson, further, the Civil Service Commission worked with the Programme Implementation team on Human Resource Management Reforms for the Public Service in conjunction with the Department for International Development (DfID) to launch Phase I of the implementation of Human Resource Management Reforms in Chibombo District.


Madam, the Civil Service Commission continued with the process of implementing and interpreting the terms and conditions of service for the Public Service. The commission visited eight districts in four provinces to sensitise them on the do’s and don’ts of the Civil Service, including the code of ethics for Public Service employees, among other things.


Madam, as a member of the Association of African Public Service Commissions (AAPSC), the Civil Service Commission participated in the general assembly for the association held in South Africa at which Zambia was elected president of the association. The Civil Service Commission participated in the events for the commemoration of the Africa Public Service Day in the Central Province and the Eastern Province.


Madam Chairperson, the proposed Budget estimates, amounting to K11,785,787 for the Civil Service Commission for 2019 has been premised on the Seventh National Development Plan (7NDP) and the Patriotic Front (PF) Party Manifesto aligned to His Excellency the President’s austerity measures. The budget estimates will enable the commission to implement a number of strategic programmes aimed at improving service delivery in areas such as compliance and quality control, decentralisation, monitoring and evaluation and human resource management.


Madam Chairperson, to this effect, budget estimates the Civil Service Commission are aimed at operationalising the following programmes:


(a)     enhancing the general administration of the commission to meet its strategic objectives;


(b)     providing for capacity building to align the commission with the new constitutional mandate of overseeing the Decentralisation Implementation Plan (DIP).


(c)     ensuring efficiency and effective management of appointments and separations through human resource committees; and


(d)     ensuring compliance and quality control through comprehensive monitoring and evaluation of the devolved functions.


Madam Chairperson, in conclusion, I now seek the support of the House in approving the commission’s budget.


Madam Chairperson, I thank you.


Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Madam Chairperson, I thank you for allowing me to debate the Vote for the Civil Service Commission. I would like to tag my debate on this Vote to the Office of the President. As you may be aware, Civil Service Commission carries out decisions on behalf of the President.


Madam Chairperson, this afternoon ,I was challenged by Hon. Lubinda. He called me tribal, as he debated. I want to state that like any other person in this country I belong to a tribe. If other people do not have tribes to which they belong, it is not my fault.


Hon. Government Members: Question!




Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, when I stand here, as a Member of Parliament, I represent the people of Zambia. I get representations from many Zambians who are affected by the decisions of the Civil Service Commission for and on behalf of the President.


Madam Chairperson, you do recall that, on the Floor of this House, there was a Motion that was moved by Hon. Nkombo –


Mr Nkombo: It was admitted.


Mr Mwiimbu: … on the issue of victimisation of some members of the public who hail from certain regions.


Hon. Government Members: Which regions?


Mr Mwiimbu: We did not talk about one particular tribe. There was one other issue of the recruitment in the Zambia National Service (ZNS) and I would like you, Madam Chairperson, to take judicial notice of the list of those who were recruited in the ZNS. It was laid on the Floor of the House, and there was a public outcry over that issue. Is it me who employed those people so that I can be said to be tribal? The answer is no. It is those who are in the Government who were tribal when they made those recruitments.




Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, we are being challenged here to bring evidence. We can bring heaps and heaps of evidence to show that some members of the public were targeted. Hon. Dr Kambwili today indicated that sixty-three me who hail from a certain region were removed from State House. Was it me who debated like that? It was Hon. Dr Kambwili.


Hon. PF Members: Which region?


Hon. Member: Shh! Imwe, nkalani zee bakulu bakamba.




Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, when you are leaders and a fellow leader brings out an issue, you must learn to listen.


Hon. UPND Member: Hear, hear!


Mr Mwiimbu: You must learn to listen.


Hon. Member: When elders are talking.


Mr Mwiimbu: The reason the party some hon. Members belong to continuously loses in the Western Province is because of the way it treats those people there.




Mr Mwiimbu: They lose in the North-Western Province because of the way they treat the people in that province.




Hon. Member: Southern Province?


Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, when we raise issues on the Floor of this House, we expect our colleagues to listen and check whether the issues that we are raising are true or not.


Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Mwiimbu: The fact is that when we raise issues, we have evidence and expect those in leadership to take action. The Constitution of Zambia is very clear that there should be no discrimination based on tribe or race. I heard somebody say that we expelled him from the United Party for National Development (UPND) because of his tribe. He ran away to form a tribal political party.




Mr Mwiimbu: So, why should he now turn to me and say that I am the one who is tribal?


Hon. Member: Which tribal party?




Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, the people who have been affected by retirements in national interest are listening. They have relatives and belong to tribes in this country. They have been complaining. It is no wonder that those who speak the loudest lose elections in Munali.




The Chairperson: Order!


Hon. Member: Wanyeka munzi.


The Chairperson: Hon. Minister for Higher Education, those running commentries are not helpful. Let us listen to the debate. Hon. Leader of Opposition, please, debate through the Chair.


 You may continue.


Mr Kampyongo: And focus on issues.


Mr Mwiimbu: I thank you, Madam Chairperson. I have made my point on those who will lose elections.




Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, I am saying that if you are accorded an opportunity to be a leader, you must learn to listen. When I was working on the Copperbelt in Kalulushi, we had a very short District Commissioner (DC).


Hon. Member: In Lamba land.


Mr Mwiimbu: This man used to insult the leadership of the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD). When the MMD assumed office, he died out of depression because of his behaviour. I expect my colleagues on your right –


Mr Kampyongo: To die?


Mr Mwiimbu: Even dying is not a bad thing.




The Chairperson: Withdraw that. I am sure you do not wish anyone dead, Leader of the Opposition.


Mr Kampyongo: Ma witches aba.


The Chairperson: I do not think you wish anyone that.


Mr Mwiimbu: I do not wish anyone to die, Madam Chairperson, but we are a Christian nation and, as Christians, we are all looking forward to die in order to go to heaven.




Mr Kampyongo: We shall follow you. You will be the first one.


Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, the point I am making is that the Civil Service Commission is accountable to the people of Zambia. When it is making recruitments, it must adhere to Article 259 of the Constitution of Zambia which talks about regional diversity when recruiting. It also talks about gender balancing when recruiting. That is what our Constitution is saying. I am appealing to the Government to ensure that there is 50 per cent parity in the recruitments. That is what our Constitution says.


Mr Lusambo: But we are doing that. (Sitting in the wrong place)


Mr Mwiimbu: Hon. Lusambo, that is why you were –


Mr Kampyongo: Speak through the Chairperson.


Mr Mwiimbu: I might say something which may not be pleasant to you.


The Chairperson: Take your seat, Hon. Mwiimbu.




Dr Hamukale: I pope you are not making him sleep.




The Chairperson: Hon. Minister for Lusaka Province, …


Hon. UPND Members: Go out!


The Chairperson: … go back to your seat …


Hon. PF Members: Ah!


The Chairperson: … and refrain from this conduct.


Go back to your seat, hon. Minister.


Mr Lusambo went back to his seat from the Frontbench.


The Chairperson: Hon. Members, we are losing time through these interruptions. I will have no choice, but to reduce the number of hon. Members debating.


Hon. Mwiimbu, please, continue.


Mr Kambita: Hammer them.


Dr Hamukale: Job well done, hon. Minister.


Ati he will tell you something that will not make you sleep.


Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, …


Mr Mushanga: Na microphone ya shima nomba.


Mr Mwiimbu: … I was referring to the Constitution which we passed on the Floor of this House. My colleagues on your right were celebrating when this particular Constitution was passed. However, it would seem they did not read the Constitution. The Constitution dictates that issues of gender are looked into when recruitments are made. If two people are being recruited, one of them must be a man and the other a woman.


Mr Nkombo: To simplify it for you.


Mr Mwiimbu: Yes. That is what the Constitution of Zambia says. The Constitution of Zambia further says that regional diversity must be looked at when recruiting.


Mr Mutelo: Regions!


Mr Mwiimbu: Simply translated or put, it says, you have to look at the …


Mr Nkombo: Tribe


Mr Mwiimbu: … tribal inclinations in the country.


Mr Nkombo: Kwamana!


Mr Mwiimbu: Is it me who is being tribal? It is the Constitution. The Constitution was crafted in such a way so that we ensure that every tribe in this country is represented. We have to emulate what obtains in Kenya.


Madam Chairperson, in Kenya, there is what they call the Face of Kenya. What they mean is that if you are recruiting, for example, in this institution, Parliament, there must be, I am now giving the example of Kenya, a Luo, Kikuyu, Kilingini and all the tribes.


Mr Mutelo: That is Kenya.


Mr Mwiimbu: It promotes harmony and unity. That is what we are saying.


Mr Nkombo: Here, you want to call it politics.


Mr Mwiimbu: In this country, there are seventy-two tribes or more. What the Constitution is propagating is that when there are recruitments being made, it should be ensured that there are Lozis, Bembas …


Mrs Katuta: Bwiles!


Mr Mwiimbu:  … Bwiles and all the tribes represented.


Mr Nkombo: And golfers.


Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, that way, the motto of “One Zambia, One Nation” will be promoted.


Mr Nkombo: Hear, hear!


Mr Mwiimbu: During the reign of the late President Kaunda −


Hon. PF Members: Question!




Mr Mwiimbu: Dead as a President, but alive as a leader.




Mr Kampyongo: Jack Mwiimbu.




The Chairperson: Order on the right and left!


Order, Hon. Mwiimbu!


Amb. Malanji: He is now killing people.




The Chairperson: Order on my right!


Amb. Malanji: He is now killing people.


Mr Mwiimbu: It was a slip of the tongue.


The Chairperson: It was obviously a slip of the tongue.


Please, withdraw it.


Mr Mwiimbu: I withdraw the statement. My tongue slipped because I was also going to talk about the other late President.


Dr Chanda: Very slippery tongue.


Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, I have noted that this is not being done. I was saying that the  Former President Kaunda, …


Mr Nkombo: Bakulu bakamba.


Mr Mwiimbu: … ensured that there was unity in this country. Recruitments and promotions were given due diligence and there was equity. That is why the motto of “One Zambia, One nation” thrived. The same was the case under the late President Chiluba. There was no tribalism. There were no issues of tribe. However, under the Patriotic Front (PF), …


Mr Nkombo: This same PF.


Mr Mwiimbu: … the issue of tribe has become prevalent.


Mr Kampyongo: Because of you.


Mr Mwiimbu: The people –


I gave an example of a very short person –




Mr Mwiimbu: Usually, short people have a problem.




Mr Kampyongo: Ama lawyer babufi.


Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, what I am saying is that during the reigns of President Chiluba, President Kaunda, President Mwanawasa and President Banda, there was equity in the distribution of resources in this country …


Mr Kampyongo: Question!


Mr Mwiimbu: … through the human resource.


Hon PF Members: Question!


Mr Mwiimbu: President Sata continued.


Mr Kampyongo: Hmmm


Coming from you now?


Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, he had realised that there was no representation in the Cabinet from the Southern Province and the first person he called to be appointed as Minister was me. I refused because I belong to the UPND.


Hon. PF Members: Aah!


Mr Mwiimbu: It is a fact.


Mr Nkombo: The next one was me.


Mr Mwiimbu: He never believed in tribalism.


Mr Nkombo: Next, it was me.


Mr Mwiimbu: That is the point I am making.


So, Madam Chairperson, it is not an issue of being tribal. How would the hon. Members on your right feel if their people were being discriminated against? Unless you have no people who follow you, ...


Hon. UPND Members: Mm!


Mr Mwiimbu: ... you will not be hurt. This country is for everyone. It is for all of us. All that I am asking is that the Government does the honourable thing, as provided for in Article 259 the Constitution of Zambia.


Mr Mwiimbu: That is what I am asking for, Madam Chairperson.


Further, Article 259 of the Constitution talks about how the disabled and youths must be taken into account as the Civil Service recruits. There is nothing wrong with what we are asking for. I am just pleading with the Government to do the honourable thing and ensure that the Civil Service Commission does not discriminate against anybody. That is what I am asking for. I am not asking for too much. I am just being fair to us, the leaders and the nation. Fortunately, the people of Zambia are listening. Those who think that their people are not being discriminated against will suffer the consequences at one time or the other. Unless they are not leading people, they will suffer the consequences.


I thank you, Madam Chairperson.


Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!


The Chairperson: Dr Kopulande, have you changed your mind about debating the Motion?


Dr Chanda: You have changed your mind, Sir.


Dr Kopulande: For now, I have changed my mind, Madam Chairperson.


The Chairperson: I will allow just two more hon. Members to debate. Then, we close this matter.


I will allow Hon. Mbangweta and Hon. Nkombo ,and Her Honour the Vice-President will wind up debate thereafter.


Hon. Government Members: Ah!


Mr Kampyongo: Takuli ama Ministers?


Mr Lubinda: No!


We have to debate that man (referring to Hon. Mwiimbu).


The Chairperson: Is Hon. Mbangweta here?


Mr Mbangweta: Yes, I am here, Madam Chairperson.


Mr Lubinda: We have to debate also.


Mr Mbangweta: Is it okay that I debate?


The Chairperson: Yes, continue.


Mr Lubinda: No!


Mr Mbangweta: Madam Chairperson, governments, by and large −


Mr Lubinda: You see he is misleading the people.


Mr Mbangweta: When we say the Government, we actually refer to the Civil Service.


Mr Lubinda: That lawyer!


Mr Mbangweta: That means that the political side of the Government will come and go, but the Civil Service will remain.


In the same vein, the United National Independence Party (UNIP) and the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) came and went. The Patriotic Front (PF) has come into power. It will go and the UPND will come into power …


Mr Kampyongo: Question!


Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Mbangweta: … and will also go. We all live in communities and when people complain, the Government should not try to override them. More is expected of leadership. Therefore, when we said that the retirement of people in national interest was prevalent and only affected one side, I expected the people in leadership to reassure us by providing a list of the thirty-seven people who were reported last time having been recruited on regionalism. The leadership should have laid a list on the Table and said, “As far as we are concerned, these are the people.” However, it did not do that.


Hon. Government Members: Bring evidence.


Mr Mbangweta: Madam Chairperson, the hon. Members on your right cannot sit there and ask us to provide evidence when we complain. We are not complaining in a vacuum. In the last Meeting of Parliament, the first report was by your Committee on Cabinet Affairs. What was contained in the report is exactly what we have been talking about. Your Committee spoke about the incapacity of the Civil Service Commission to implement systems and procedures. For example, it was clear in your Committee’s report that the commission has failed to implement the Performance Management System. As a result, promotions and transfers of civil servants are currently being done on impulse, and this was stated in your Committee’s report.


Madam Chairperson, we were also told that Government institutions are being undermined by the retirement of people in national interest which we strongly believe is discriminatory. The people who come from provinces which are PF strongholds must be very serious because the day of accounting will come and they will not be in a position to defend themselves. Therefore, they better be on their toes and appreciate that the day will come. That is when they will look at the names and, maybe, offer an explanation.


Madam Chairperson, the retirement of people in national interest also has a negative impact. In the first place, if the Civil Service Commission was following procedure, it would have advised the politicians not to go that route because it is costly. The country is spending more money as the retired people continue to be on the payroll as they are not paid their terminal benefits on time.


Madam, the issue of freezing positions also came up in your Committee’s report. Most of the institutions of the Civil Service are not performing to the required standard because most of the positions have been frozen. As a result, service delivery is undermined.


Madam, the issue of employing people on merit was also referred to in your Committee’s report. It was reported that people are not employed on merit because the performance management arrangement of it and the recruitment processes are not being followed. Therefore, which people hold certain positions? We now have caderism, nepotism and tribalism.


Madam Chairperson, last time I said that in Nkeyema even drivers do not come from that area. I remember saying that when I go to Nkeyema, I should, at least, see civil servants from that area because there are some people there with Grade 12 certificates. We read about a situation in Monze where a daily classified employee camr from Lusaka instead of being recruited by the Permanent Secretary from Choma. What sort of decentralisation is that? We have a policy in place, but it is not being implemented.


Madam, the Performance Management System is supposed to reflect the rewarding of people who perform. However, what we see in the Civil Service Commission are systems breaking down. Last week, we read about the evidence of systems breaking down in the Northern Province. Money going missing is a reflection of the fact that there are no systems and procedures in place and who is supposed to implement the policy? Is it not the Civil Service Commission? Why is the commission failing to implement the policy? Is it the politicians who are stopping it from doing what it is supposed to do? This is what we mean when we say the Civil Service should be above reproach. Politicians will come and go, but systems and procedures must remain in place and work very well.


Madam Chairperson, there is also no transparency in the way systems function in the Civil Service. Therefore, the commission has a lot of work to do. It should even prevail on politicians and advise them that it is not just a matter of them making pronouncements about everything being okay.


Madam, the Civil Service Commission cannot be quiet over a situation like the one we read about in the Northern Province. What has the commission said about what happened in the Northern Province? It has not said anything. In this regard, can anybody be convinced about having systems in place? He/she cannot. This is why we always say that one does not have to listen to what the PF says. Just look at what it is doing because that reflects the situation on the ground. So, what is required is for us to encourage professionalism in the Civil Service. The Government should encourage professionalism and allow civil servants to work the way they are supposed to work.


I thank you very much, Madam Chairperson.


Mr Musonda rose.


The Chairperson: Mr Musonda, I mentioned the names of the hon. Members whom I was going to call upon.


Hon. Nkombo may take the Floor.


Mr Nkombo: Madam Chairperson, I shall also be very brief.


Mr Musonda: On a point of order, Madam.


Mr Nkombo: Firstly, I want to say that I am supporting this Vote, but I want to make certain observations.


The Chairperson: Can you take your seat, Hon. Musonda.


Continue, Mr Nkombo.


Mr Nkombo: I have very solemn and serious concerns about this particular Vote. Reality is not an illusion. In 2015, I moved a Motion to urge the Government not to discriminate against civil servants who were perceived to support political parties other than the Patriotic Front (PF) or those who came from a different ethnic extraction. I made certain quotations and I vividly recall one of the quotations that I even laid on the Table at that time. Therefore, it is in the records of this Assembly.


After one individual from the Tonga ethnic extraction suspected to be a member of the United Party for National Development (UPND) was beaten up, here is what the Head of State, President Edgar Lungu, said to the people in Lundazi:


 “Please, do not victimise Tongas because not all Tongas are UPND.”


Madam Chairperson, those were his words. I just wanted the House to be reminded that reality is not an illusion. If anyone thinks that reality is an illusion, there is a hospital nearby here on the Great East Road that can attend to him/her. So, it is on record that even the holder of the highest office in this land recognises the fact that there was some amount of victimisation which even became physical.


Mr Musonda: On a point of order, Madam.


The Chairperson: Hon. Musonda will leave the House.


 Please, take leave.


Mr Nkombo: I am sorry about that, Hon. Musonda.




Mr Nkombo: You would have listened to a good debate.


Madam Chairperson, I said I will try to be sombre today, but it should not be mistaken as pleading with our colleagues because the world is round. The precedence that the PF has set for this country is dangerous.


Mr Kampyongo: Question!


Mr Nkombo: It is extremely dangerous.


Madam Chairperson, at this point, I want to make a declaration of interest because I am compelled to do so. We were told to bring evidence here. My own younger sister from the same mother and father was trained by the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) which is a quasi-Government organisation. She was trained in Chelstone. The moment she got her certificate, she was told, “You are not needed anymore.” I went to one of the hon. Ministers here when he was the Minister of Finance and I said, “Look at this” and he said, “I sympathise.” These are harsh realities.


 My message is very short: Politicians come and politicians go. By the way, my sister did not die. She is still among the living. She is just not employed. I have no option, but to say that because she is who she is, and to add salt to injury, she is not only a Tonga by ethnic extraction, but she is also my younger sister −


The Chairperson: Hon. Nkombo, I will not allow you to discuss your sister in this House in that light because she is not the only person who has failed to get employed in the Civil Service. For that reason alone, I do not want you to make this debate personal. Let us discuss the Budget. If you have finished your points, you can simply sit down.


Mr Nkombo: I will move on.


Madam Chairperson, we are approving money to be given to the hangman. We are approving money to be given to the person with the guillotine, the one who signs letters everyday to exclude people of a certain ethnic extraction from the Civil Service.


Mr Kampyongo: Ah, Question!


Mr Nkombo: That is what we are doing here. We are giving money to what I would term an enemy.


Madam Chairperson, the exclusion of certain people from the Public Service, such as the Public Service Pension Fund (PSPF), is happening in full view of the Executive led by His Excellency the President. These are serious matters that must be spoken about. They must be ventilated. I want to say to those who have been given the task to carry out this dirty job of excluding people that their days are numbered. We know who they are. The fact that we are quiet and cannot mention their names here does not signify that we do not know who they are. It is painful to lose a job for doing nothing.


 Madam Chairperson, I said that the PSFP had a director whose Curriculum Vitae (CV) can never be equal to any person I know occupying in that office now. However, because he came from a particular ethnic extraction, he was kicked out. Even the board members who tried to support him were kicked out. The record is there. We can show it. The most important institution in this country to me, at least, is the Auditor-General’s Office. I spoke about it earlier on. I will not belabour that point. The man who used to occupy in that office was also extracted because of his ethnic extraction.


Mr Kampyongo: Question!


Mr Nkombo: We are giving money to the hangman so that he continues to purge our people. That is what is going on right now at the moment.


Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson –


Mr Nkombo: I am appealing to those whom the hangman reports to ...


Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, on a point of order ...


Mr Nkombo: ... to chill out; ...


The Chairperson: No.


Mr Nkombo: ... to slow down.


The Chairperson: Please, Hon. Nkombo, take your seat. Hon. Ministers, please, you cannot be the ones creating disorder in the House. You cannot. You have debated. Hon. Kampyongo and Hon. Lubinda, you debated earlier on. You debated, and we listened.


Mr Lubinda: Both hon. Members of Parliament debated.


The Chairperson: Allow that side to also debate.


Mr Lubinda: They both debated.


The Chairperson: I have just advised. As the Executive, you have collectively brought a Budget to the House for approval. In seeking that approval, hon. Members of the House will comment on your Budget. This Budget belongs to you. You have to be patient. Her Honour the Vice-President will address those issues. We have so many Votes to deal with. So, we cannot have this kind of conduct from the right.




The Chairperson: I have just advised. Let your Backbench debate. If they are not interested in debating, allow the other side to do so. Let us have order in the House.


Hon. Nkombo will continue with his debate.


Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Nkombo: Madam Chairperson, we are human beings who have collectively decided that we will have an indivisible multi-party democracy. What that means is that certain people will belong to the National Democratic Congress (NDC) and others to the Forum for Democracy and Development (FDD). Some will belong to the PF or the UPND and other parties. The Constitution is very clear on that. It should, therefore, not be used as a yardstick for excluding people from their means of livelihood because the Constitution clearly states that we must allow people to achieve personal actualisation. Who provides that actualisation? It is the Government. The Government is the biggest employer in this country.


Madam Chairperson, let me just quickly give the downside of the ramification of the attitude of excluding people. This year, for the first time since I came to Parliament, the Yellow Book did not arrive on time. It is prepared by civil servants. We know what happened. They were failing to balance figures in this book because some people who were excluded from the Ministry of Finance. We have the details and names of the people. Those who remained had difficulties executing this task. That is one downside.


Madam Chairperson, the next downside is the issue of nepotism, which Hon. Mbangweta brought up, and all the vices. What this does is that you now start to promote inefficiency because you will now just want to bring in kinsmen and people of like minds such that even when they make mistakes, you do not fire them. The Social Cash Transfer Scheme is a typical case of what I am talking about. I expected heads to roll in dust, but only one person was used as a scapegoat. That one person does not even sign cheques. Those who were involved in obscure arrangements in managing public affairs are still reporting to their offices and they work from 08:00 hours until 17:00 hours. This is how inefficiency creeps in. That is a fact.


Madam Chairperson, we are all talented differently and we have to be united in our diversity. The UPND is in my blood, but there will be things that I can do better than those guys on the right side. Similarly, there are things that they can do better than me. Together, we can build this country. The issue of exclusion is one of the reasons it is difficult to advise each other.


Madam, imagine the kind of society that would be built if we all thought the same way. Tell me the kind of society we would have if people did not have divergent views. If the leader says let us go left, everyone goes left even if you are going to fall off a cliff. In Tonga we say, “kalonga muhyolelwa”, meaning you all just go. There has to be a dissenting voice that will say, “We are not taking this country in the right direction.” Unfortunately, this is the only platform that we have. However, we have been reduced to mere spectators. We are watching them as if they are Manchester United or Arsenal. We are watching them from the terraces, scoring their own goals. They think that they are doing good, but they are actually soiling themselves.


Madam, that is one of the downsides of the attitude of the Civil Service Commission. Every political party has a time, and this should be a timely reminder to the commission. The Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) served very diligently. As a matter of fact, I must declare that I miss it dearly. I miss the MMD which was not in a cocktail the way it is today.




Mr Nkombo: I miss the pedigree MMD because we used to argue intelligently in this House with no emotions attached. The ones who are now getting more agitated like washing machines are the ones who were the loudest when they were in the Opposition.




The Chairperson: Order!


Debate the Budget, Hon. Nkombo.


Mr Nkombo: Should I sit down?


The Chairperson: Just debate the Budget.


Mr Nkombo: Yes. I am talking about the budget for the Public Service Commission and the way it employs.


We have a duty to correct our friends and inform them that we are also employable. I have made that point already and I am now making a quick reference to how certain people used to behave. Some of them used to sit somewhere – benzo nkala kuti ba Lubinda? Somewhere there. (pointing at the Opposition Frontbench) wowowo




Mr Nkombo:  … while the MMD smiled at them. The MMD would respond to debates. Thereafter, we would go and have tea together. However, the PF has created a huge cleavage which has gone down and transcended into the Civil Service. Now, it is even going to break the smallest unit of social order, the family.


Madam Chairperson, I want to plead with the key players in the commission to stand their ground even if it means getting fired. When they are directed not to employ someone, they should say, “No Sir or Madam, this one qualifies.” If they are caught on the wrong side of the Code of Conduct, it is reason enough to get rid of them. I hope that somebody has heard because this thing must come to an end. The PF has been governing for a long time now.


Madam, when you enter what the white people call a water closet (WC) and we, blacks, call a toilet, the next thing is to come out. One cannot stay in the toilet forever.




Mr Nkombo: It is the same as going into the Government. When you are in the WC, …




Mr Nkombo: It is an example I am giving.


… you cannot stay there forever. You must come out because somebody may also want to go in.


So, I am advising my friends, brothers and sisters in the PF to just treat us normally. We are not your enemies. We are just their competitors. That is what we are. We are just their competitors and we could actually have mutual benefit towards one another, including those people who are employing and firing people, if we developed a better attitude. I must say it is a devilish attitude. It is an attitude which lacks the ingredient of Christianity. It is an attitude which does not befit a society or a group of people that has agreed to dedicate and put aside a day for national prayers, fasting, repentance and reconciliation.


Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Nkombo: It is an affront to human rights. People have the right to associate and assemble. Obviously, civil servants, I submit, should never be in active politics.


As I end my debate, I wish to say that it is true that only a person who has been certified dead by a competent doctor does not have feelings for a political party. It is only the dead. For as long as one is alive, he/she can actually say, “Aba babaah maningi. Aba bakamba maningi.” This means that these people have stolen enough and these ones have spoken enough.


Madam Chairperson, I listened to an audio recording stating that things are bad in this country. It came from a very senior colleague from that side(pointing at the Opposition Backbench). They can never get any worse than this. However, I think that there is room for redemption. They can redeem themselves by, at least, adopting a positive attitude so that we can forge into the future as has been done before.


Madam, when the MMD left office, there were police call-outs all over. For example, there were call-outs for Hon. Dr Musokotwane over the issue of bicycles. Hon. Members on your right now have uncountable bicycles. How can you stop retribution with such an attitude? If God favours us one day by putting us into power, how can we avoid retribution?


I thank you, Madam.


Mr Lubinda: And that is not hate speech in parliament, retribution?



Dr Kopulande (Chembe): Madam Chairperson, thank you for giving me a second bite at the cherry.


Madam, let me start by making a statement of fact so that those who were not there may learn something new. Twenty-seven years ago in 1991, the Zambian people, after being under a one party system of governance, made a deliberate decision to run a multi-party system of governance to promote democratic principles in our governance system. That decision was deliberate. By nature, a multi-party system operates on the basis of having interparty competition for office based on the manifesto and developmental programmes that the political party sells to the electorate.


Mr Lubinda: Yes!


Dr Kopulande: This means each political party comes into the Government when it wins to deliver on its programme because it has an understanding, an agreement or a social contract with the people of this country.


Ms Katuta: More money in the pockets?


Dr Kopulande: In order for that political party to deliver on its promises to the people, it uses the Civil Service. What that means is that for that political party to deliver, it must have a Civil Service that is loyal and committed to the projects and development ideals of the political party that comes into office.


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Lubinda: Not spies and stooges! Tell them.


Mr Michelo: Speak your mind!


Dr Kopulande: Madam Chairperson, it is for this reason that while debating this same Vote last year, I argued that we must make a deliberate move to realign top Civil Service positions with political terms of office because every political party that comes in requires the support and loyalty of the top Civil Service so that it can implement on its programmes.


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


Dr Kopulande: We cannot pretend that people cannot have political leanings. It is a dream.


Mr Lubinda: Teach them!


Dr Kopulande: It is myopic and it is in a world that does not exist on the surface of this earth.


Mr Lubinda: They want to govern through the back door!


Prof. Luo interjected.


Dr Kopulande: Therefore, any civil servant who is in office and acts to sabotage the programmes of that political party has broken the faith, broken their oath of office and should not be in that office.


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Lubinda: Like Jack Mwiimbu!


Dr Kopulande: This is the reality.


Mr Michelo: Present proof!


Dr Kopulande: If you have read about political systems, this is how they work. We cannot come here and pretend. We cannot have civil servants in office who are undermining the Ruling Party’s programmes. It is contrary to their terms of employment. The terms of employment demand that as a civil servant, one remains loyal and works to achieve the programmes of the Government of the day. That is what it is.


Mr Lubinda: Sibaziba iyayi.


Dr Kopulande: Madam Chairperson, ...


Mr Lubinda: Six times (pointing at Hon. Mwiimbu)


Dr Kopulande: ... I get concerned when we come to this House and ascribe negativities to His Excellency the President and the party in power for trying to deliver on their promises.


If the wheel on the car that they are using to get to some place has a puncture, they have no choice but to replace it. Otherwise, they will not reach the Copperbelt if they have a punctured tyre, they have to change it. The same applies to the Civil Service, hence my plea, once again, to the Government to change the contractual arrangements for senior civil servants so that all these problems cancome to an end. I think the statement that retirements in national interest are being ascribed to certain tribes is too strong and can infuriate the people. We need to be careful with what we say on the Floor of this House because our people are listening to us right now.


Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!


Dr Kopulande: When we walk into this House, we are national leaders and not tribal leaders. I pray that my friends –




Dr Kopulande: Excuse me.


I pray that my friends will –




The Chairperson: Order on the left.


Continue, Hon. Dr Kopulande.


Dr Kopulande: We had an argument earlier today, Madam Chairperson, about nominations and ensuring that there is tribal balancing. Article 259(1)(a) of our Constitution reads:



“(1) Where a person is empowered to make a nomination or an appointment to a public office, that person shall ensure – ”


“(a)      that the person being nominated or appointed has the requisite qualification to discharge the functions of that office, as prescribed or specified in public office circulars or establishment registers;”


Mr Lubinda: Tribe is not one of them.


Dr Kopulande: So, the first criterion for one to be appointed to a job is for him/her to be qualified. It is not because one is Bemba, Ngoni or whatever, but one must be qualified.


Mr Lubinda: Or you must be a Mwiimbu.


Dr Kopulande: Madam Chairperson, Article 259(2) reads and I quote:


“A person empowered to make a nomination or appointment to a public office shall, where possible, …”


Madam Chairperson, assume that the President has vacancies to appoint three people. Can he appoint from all our ten regions?


Hon. PF Members: No!


Mr Lubinda: Not even Jack can do that.


Dr Kopulande: It is not possible. Therefore, the drafters of our supreme law knew that there would be circumstances where it would not be possible to appoint people from all the regions at the same time.


Mr Lubinda: Very good point.


Dr Kopulande: Therefore, it is rather unfair to ascribe tribal sentiments to His Excellency the President who makes appointments. Let me give an example. When forming the Cabinet, His Excellency the President had no hon. Member of Parliament from the Southern Province. So, he nominated Hon. Hamukale. Since he had no hon. Member of Parliament from the North-Western Province, he nominated Hon. Kapita.


Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!


Dr Kopulande: His Excellency the President had no hon. Member of Parliament from the Western Province, and he nominated Hon. Mubukwanu.


Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!


Dr Kopulande: Did His Excellency the President not make an effort to ensure there is regional representation in his Government? Yes, he did. The evidence is there for all of us to see.


Mr Lubinda: Not like those. Three people, one group.


The Chairperson: Order!


(Debate adjourned)






[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]


(Progress reported)




The House adjourned at 1958 hours until 1400 hours on Thursday, 25th October, 2019.