Thursday, 22nd March, 2018

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Thursday, 22nd March, 2018

 

The House met at 1430 hours

 

[MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

 

NATIONAL ANTHEM

 

PRAYER

 

_______

 

QUESTION FOR ORAL ANSWER

 

DEATH OF MR LEMMY MAPEKE

 

244. Mr Belemu (Mbabala) asked the Minister of Home Affairs:

 

  1. whether the Government was aware that a Mr Lemmy Mapeke died in police custody at Macha Police Post on Friday, 16th March, 2018, in Mbabala Parliamentary Constituency;

 

  1. if so, what circumstances led to his death; and

 

  1. what measures were being taken to avert a recurrence of such deaths.

 

The Minister of Justice (Mr Lubinda) (on behalf of the Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Kampyongo)): Madam Speaker, the Government is aware that Mr Lemmy Mapeke, aged twenty-eight, died on Friday, 16th March, 2018, whilst in police custody at Macha Mission Hospital in Mbabala Parliamentary Constituency.

 

Madam, Mr Mapeke was released from the Choma correctional facility on 16th November, 2017, after serving a five-year sentence, following his conviction for burglary and theft. After his release, Mr Mapeke allegedly committed ten crimes of burglary, house breaking and theft, which led to his arrest by a mob that handed him over to Macha Police Post on 10th March, 2018. During his detention, Mr Mapeke led the police to the various places where he had sold or hidden the stolen items. Various household goods were recovered in the process. Investigations were still ongoing, as a number of people were still lodging complaints of burglary and theft occasioned by Mr Mapeke.

 

Madam Speaker, on 16th March, 2018, Mr Mapeke fell ill and was taken to Macha Mission Hospital where he died. A postmortem was conducted, which revealed that Mr Mapeke died of internal bleeding as a result of a ruptured spleen caused by physical injury.

 

As for the measures undertaken to avert a recurrence of such deaths, the police shall continue to sensitise society not to apply instant justice on suspected criminals.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Mr Belemu: Madam Speaker, if the hon. Minister is giving the correct position, namely that Mr Mapeke was taken to Macha Police Post after being apprehended and possibly injured by a mob, it literary means that he sustained the injuries, including internal ones, between 10th and 16th March, 2018, when he died. The Brought in Dead (BID) Report indicates that at the point the body had deep cuts when it was received at the hospital. It had injuries on the back, hands, legs and so on and so forth. The police kept someone with such injuries and made him take them to the places that the hon. Minister has referred to until 16th March, 2018, when the situation became unbearable and he died later on. Was that the right thing for the police to do? I have before me the BID Report and images that can attest to that fact.

 

Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, there is no way the police could have moved around with a body. The police operate under instructions, and their practice is that if a person is brought to them with injuries, before such he/she is detained, he/she is presented before a medical officer at a hospital. In this particular case, Mr Mapeke did not present any signs of injury when he was presented to the police. That is the reason he was detained.

 

Madam, as I said earlier on, Mr Mapeke actually assisted the police in recovering some of the items that he had stolen. So, naturally he must have been fit enough to perform such functions or, at least, physically and externally fit. As any surgeon would testify, a person could have internal injuries without necessarily exhibiting any physical external signs of injury. That might have been the case in this particular matter.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Belemu: Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has confirmed that the first time the deceased was detained in police custody, he did not have any physical injuries. Can he, therefore, confirm that he sustained the injuries whilst in police custody? I have with me a BID report to that effect that states that when the body was taken to the hospital, it had a lot of visible scars, which did not need a medical officer to testify. By the way, I never said that police officers were moving around with a dead body. That is why Mr Mapeke was kept in police custody from 10th to 16th March, 2018. The BID report states that he had injuries all over the body.

 

Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, if the hon. Member has any additional information to the information that I have presented, he will do well to lay it on the Table of the House so that we can use it to investigate.

 

Madam, the information I provided is that Mr Mapeke was taken to Macha Hospital on 16th  March, 2018, after the police noticed that he was unwell, and he died in Macha Hospital. If the hon. Member has evidence that he was already dead when he was taken to Macha Hospital, certainly, I will be very interested to follow up the matter, but it will be based on him adducing evidence.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Mbabala, do you have any documentation pertaining to this particular death?

 

Mr Belemu: Madam Speaker, yes, I can lay it on the Table.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Please, lay it on the Table.

 

Mr Belemu: I can also provide soft copies of the evidence to the Government later on.

 

Mr Belemu laid the paper on the Table.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Minister, I know that you are Acting Minister of Home Affairs. However, please, find time to investigate further this matter.

 

Mr Mutelo (Mitete): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has said that the results of the post-mortem showed that the deceased had some internal injuries. Had the deceased come with a medical report from a doctor or if he had any physical injuries which were visible, he would not have been detained. What advice can the hon. Minister give to police officers who detain someone who has a medical report stating that he/she is sick?

 

Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, that is obviously a very hypothetical question. All I can say is that the police do not detain a person with any injury or illness before presenting that person to a medical practitioner at a hospital. The police have the ability to police any person who is before any medical facility. There can have police officers to guard him/her. So, for the police it is not just a question of keeping a person in cells. They can also arrest a person while being provided medical attention. If I had details of that particular case, then, I would respond to it but, hypothetically, this would not happen.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Dr Chanda (Bwana Mkubwa): Madam Speaker, we are talking about a convicted robber. The hon. Minister has said that over ten robberies were committed in Mbabala Constituency. Did the hon. Member of Mbabala ever engage you, hon. Minister of Home Affairs, or the police over the robberies? What advice can you give the hon. Member to sensitise his people against applying instant justice?

 

Interruptions

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The hon. Minister has already talked about sensitising the community but, perhaps, he can just reinforce his earlier message.

 

Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, indeed, all hon. Members of Parliament get concerned when their constituencies are besieged with thefts, house-breaking and carjacking, especially if lives are also threatened. I am sure that all hon. Members of Parliament would be concerned if some of their residents were arrested and died whilst in custody. It is, therefore, incumbent upon all hon. Members of Parliament to ensure that they sensitise their constituents against engaging in criminal activities and applying mob justice. The death we are talking about may have been as a result of mob justice. That must be stopped. All of us can join hands to sensitise our communities.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Muchima (Ikeleng’i): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister said that all those who fall ill whilst in police custody are presented before a medical practitioner. Is the hon. Minister aware that there is so much police brutality that suspects are not allowed to receive medical attention? Is the hon. Minister speaking the truth or he just wants to appease his masters?

 

Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, let me start by acknowledging that it is my duty to say things to please the Zambian population. I want to make it clear to all the citizens of Zambia that the police are not allowed, by law, to cause any injury to people who are in detention. They are also not supposed to cause injury to people during investigations and after someone has been convicted. No police officer is allowed to inflict physical pain on an inmate or convict. This is the position of the law, and it is the position that this Government supports. This Government has been working extremely hard to ensure that all police officers are sensitised on this matter. I am not saying this to please a master. I am saying it to please the masters who brought all of us to this House; the masters who employed this Government; and the masters this Government responds to and serves. If, indeed, there are any cases of police brutality, can citizens, please, report them to the Human Rights Commission (HRC) or the ministry responsible for justice.  Therefore, I am responding the hon. Member’s question as Acting Minister of Home Affairs and as Minister responsible for Justice. Not too long ago, I mentioned that the hon. Minister of Home Affairs would soon be presenting to this House a law to replace the current Prisons Act with the Correctional Facilities Act which is going to introduce the observance of the highest level of human rights for our brothers and sisters who, unfortunately, find themselves on the other side of the law.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Ms Lubezhi (Namwala): Madam Speaker, extra judicial killings in this country are against the law. The hon. Minister has confirmed that Mr Mapeke was beaten by a mob, which also took him to the police post. The hon. Minister has also confirmed that he died of internal injuries, that is, a ruptured spleen. Have the people who beat up this man been apprehended?

 

Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, this is the challenge that the Zambia Police Service will always be faced with when a mob decides to cause injustice on an individual. As the hon. Member may be aware, you cannot arrest a whole mob and take it before a court and say that it killed a person. You must have evidence on the specific individual who inflicted the injury. The whole mob could not have hit a person to damage his spleen. This should have been done by a particular person. However, when there is a mob involved, how do you identify that one person? It is not possible. However, I wish to say that the information that has been provided to us is that the police in Macha are conducting investigations to establish if there is anybody in the mob who can identify the person who may have caused the death of Mr Mapake. That is why we cannot arrest the whole mob and cause for it to be charged with murder. It is not possible.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Prof. Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister is right in stating that mob injustice should not be tolerated. In fact, it is against our fundamental values and principles that are outlined in our Constitution, and that are a subject of debate at the moment. It is also against human rights. The hon. Minister said that this can be mitigated by sensitising the community. Could the hon. Minister elaborate a little more on that. In the past, we used to have the  “Police and You Programme” on radio and television.

 

Mr Sampa: On a point of order, Madam.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

 

Mr Sampa: Madam Speaker, I wish to apologise to the hon. Member on the Floor for interrupting his debate. I wish to be educated on the etiquette and dress code for Parliamentarians. Is the hon. Member of Parliament for Namwala Parliamentary Constituency in order to wear a sleeveless top?

 

I need your serious ruling, Madam.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The hon. Member for Namwala Parliamentary Constituency is sitting very close to where I am.

 

Hon. Government Members: Let her stand up!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: No, I do not want to make her stand because I can see her from here.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker was given a copy of the Standing Orders.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I am being aided here. Hon. Members, our Standing Orders and, in particular Standing Order No. 165(1) and (2), state as follows:

 

“The official dress for male Members of Parliament shall be a formal suit, a pair of long trousers, a shirt, a tie and jacket, toga or safari suit with long or short sleeves and a scarf or neck tie.

 

“The official dress for female Members of Parliament shall be a formal dress, dress suit or skirt suit, chitenge dress or suit, short or long sleeved and below the knee, or formal executive trouser suit.”

 

Laughter

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I think that the hon. Member for Namwala Parliamentary Constituency is wearing a short sleeved chitenge attire.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Therefore, she is not out of order.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: Madam Speaker, before the point of order was raised, I was saying that in the past, we used to have the “Police and You Programme” both on radio and television. Through this programme, the community was well informed about the various aspects of policing. Could the hon. Minister inform us about the sensitisation programmes which are currently being implemented by the Zambia Police Service in order to address vices such as the one under discussing.

 

Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank Hon. Prof. Lungwangwa for that very important question. Indeed, many of us would wish to have the “Police and You Programme” back on our radio and television stations. I am sure that the Police Command has heard the point which Hon. Prof. Lungwangwa has raised. I am sure that with time and resources permitting, the Zambia Police Service will come up with programmes such as the one that the hon. Member has talked about. In the meantime, the Zambia Police Service is actively working in collaboration with neighbourhood watch committees, which they use to sensitise the residents about issues of safety, in places such as Macha and others.

 

Madam Speaker, like I said earlier on, this is also an opportunity for all hon. Members of Parliament to get involved in community policing. Whenever we go to hold meetings in our constituencies, it is important for all of us to spend time sensitising people against mob injustice. For instance, not too long ago, the country was taken aback to hear of how some people maimed others and burnt down their houses for no good reason other than political differences. It is our duty to sensitise our communities. Therefore, I agree with Hon. Prof. Lungwangwa that more needs to be done. However, as politicians, we also have a role to play. So, let us play this role together.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Dr Malama (Kanchibiya): Madam Speaker, I sympathise with the hon. Member of Mbabala for the loss of life. Any death is regrettable. However, I am concerned about the welfare of the good people of Mbabala. What robust action is being taken to secure the property of the people of Mbala?

 

Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, Macha Police Post has officers employed by the State whose job is to enforce law and order. All police stations and posts are encouraged to establish neighbourhood watch committees. It is our hope that the presence of the police and respective neighbourhood watch committees will secure the property and lives of the people of Mbabala and the people of Zambia as a whole.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

__________

 

MOTION

 

REPORT OF THE PARLIAMENTARY SELECT COMMITTEE APPOINTED TO SCRUTINISE THE PRESIDENTIAL APPOINTMENT OF MRS ANNETTE CHIRUMBA NHEKAIRO TO SERVE AS VICE-CHAIRPERSON AND MR ALI DERRICK SIMWINGA TO SERVE AS COMMISSIONER OF THE ELECTORAL COMMISSION OF ZAMBIA AND THE MINISTERIAL APPOINTMENT OF MRS JULIANA KUNDA MWILA, MS MULENGA MPUNDU KAPWEPWE, MR NONDE MATHEWS KANIKI AND MR NALUMINO BRUCE CHYAPENI TO SERVE AS DIRECTORS OF THE ZAMBIA NATIONAL BROADCASTING CORPORATION BOARD

 

Mr Ng’ambi (Chifubu): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the House to adopt the Report of the Parliamentary Select Committee appointed to scrutinise the Presidential appointment of Mrs Annette Chirumba Nhekairo to serve as Vice-Chairperson and Mr Ali Derrick Simwinga to serve as Commissioner of the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) and the ministerial appointment of Mrs Juliana Kunda Mwila, Ms Mulenga Mpundu Kapwepwe, Mr Nonde Mathews Kaniki and Nalumino Bruce Chyapeni to serve as Directors of the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC) Board for the Second Session of the Twelfth National Assembly, laid on the Table of the House on Friday, 16th March, 2018.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

 

Mrs Jere: Madam Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

 

Mr Ng’ambi: Madam Speaker, may I begin by stating that the ECZ and the ZNBC play an important role in the democratic dispensation of this country. In this regard, your Committee resolved that only persons who are qualified, with experience, have a record of performance, commitment, stability and patriotism should serve as members of the institutions.

 

Madam Speaker, your Committee carefully selected the witnesses to assist it in scrutinising the suitability of the nominees. Your Committee requested memoranda from relevant State security agencies which all submitted that they did not have any adverse records or reports against the nominees. In addition, your Committee requested for memoranda from stakeholder institutions and the appointing authority which also appeared before your Committee to make its oral submissions. Further, your Committee interviewed the nominees and carefully scrutinised their curriculum vitae.

 

Madam Speaker, as regards the findings of your Committee on the Presidential nominees, I wish to inform this august House as follows:

 

Mrs Annette Chirumba Nhekairo

 

Madam Speaker, the nominee is a legal practitioner, with vast experience in both the public and private sectors. During the course of her legal career, she served as legal counsel for the Zambia Telecommunications Company and Director of the Zambia Law Development Commission (ZDLC). While at ZDLC, the nominee spearheaded a number of research projects which led to the enactment of important pieces of legislation such as the Matrimonial Causes Act No. 20 of 2007 and the Anti-Gender Based Violence Act No. 1 of 2011. She was further instrumental in the establishment of Anti-Gender Based Violence Fast Track Courts.

 

Madam Speaker, some witnesses raised concern that the nominee lacked experience in the electoral system. However, your Committee noted that her vast experience of working in senior management positions equipped her with leadership qualities and administrative experience which would be beneficial to the ECZ. Further, her immense experience in research would be of great value to the ECZ. In view of this, your Committee supports the nominee’s appointment to serve as Vice-Chairperson of the ECZ.

 

Mr Ali Derrick Simwinga

 

Madam Speaker, your Committee noted that the nominee is a legal practitioner with a long and illustrious career in the Public Service. During his nineteen-year career as town clerk, the nominee conducted elections at all levels. In addition, your Committee learnt that the nominee served on a number of constitutional review commissions. Your Committee noted that the nominee’s vast experience in and exposure to elections at different levels would be useful to the ECZ. In view of this, your Committee supports the nominee’s appointment to serve as a commissioner of the ECZ.

 

Madam Speaker, your Committee also had the privilege of scrutinising the ministerial appointment of directors to the ZNBC Board. I wish to inform this august House of its findings as follows:

 

Ms Juliana Kunda Mwila

 

Madam Speaker, your Committee learnt that the nominee is a seasoned journalist who rose through the ranks to the position of Director Press, Public Relations and Planning at the Ministry of Information and Broadcasting. It is noteworthy that the nominee is the first female to serve as Director-General of the ZNBC. During her tenure, she instituted reforms that improved the operations of the ZNBC. In addition, the nominee initiated the on-going digitalisation process at the ZNBC when she served as director in the Ministry of Information and Broadcasting. Therefore, your Committee is confident that the nominee’s vast experience in the media would add value to the ZNBC and support her appointment to serve as Director of the ZNBC.

 

Mrs Mulenga Mpundu Kapwepwe

 

Madam Speaker, the nominee is an award winning playwright and author. She is also a lecturer and trainer in cultural issues, with over twenty years’ experience. In addition, the nominee worked in governmental and non-governmental organisations. Your Committee also learnt that the nominee had interacted with the ZNBC as a content producer, evaluator of programmes and a member of the ZNBC Advisory Council. Your Committee is thus confident that her experience will be of immense value to the ZNBC. Therefore, your Committee supports the nominee’s appointment to serve as a Director on the ZNBC Board.

 

Mr Nonde Mathews Kaniki

 

Madam Speaker, the nominee is a chartered accountant, with broad experience in financial management and has in-depth understanding of communication services. Your Committee notes that the ZNBC is currently faced with serious financial challenges and is of the view that the nominee’s experience in financial management will be of value to the corporation. In that regard, your Committee supports her appointment to serve as Director of the ZNBC Board.

 

Mr Nalumino Bruce Chyapeni

 

Madam Speaker, your Committee notes that the nominee is a chartered accountant whose career has focused on risk management and auditing. Your Committee believes that his experience and skills will assist the ZNBC to with prudent management of resources. The nominee is also youthful and will help introduce new and innovative ideas which will help transform the ZNBC in the competitive broadcasting environment. In view of the above, your Committee supports his appointment to serve as Director of the ZNBC Board.

 

Madam Speaker, before I conclude, allow me to highlight the important observations and recommendations by the witnesses to your Committee. Almost all the witnesses who appeared before your Committee bemoaned the insufficient time given to them to conduct their investigations. Your Committee recognises the fact that due to the constitutional requirement in some instances for ratification to be done within twenty-one days of the House resuming sitting, it may not always be possible to give witnesses sufficient time. Nonetheless, your Committee recommends that where possible, witnesses be given a minimum of two weeks to conduct their investigations.

 

Madam, your Committee notes that most of the nominees are advanced in age. Additionally, several of them possess the same qualifications and skills. Your Committee urges the appointing authority to ensure that in future, nominees to such important institutions are of varying age and  possess varying qualifications, skills and experience. Your Committee observes that only four nominees have been appointed to the ZNBC Board when the Act provides for nine directors. This will affect the operations of the board.

 

Madam Speaker, it is a well-known fact that the ZNBC has been operating without a board for some time now. This has adversely affected its operations. In this regard, your Committee urges the appointing authority to urgently appoint the remaining five directors and submit their names to this august House for ratification. Your Committee observes that while most boards of parastatal bodies such as the ZNBC have representation from relevant ministries and the Chief Executive Officer sits on the board as an ex-officio member, the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation Act does not provide for this.

 

Madam Speaker, your Committee notes that it is important for the relevant ministry to be represented on the board in order to provide policy guidance. Additionally, as implementer of the board’s decision, the Chief Executive Officer needs to be an ex-officio member of the board. Your Committee further observes that the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation Act does not stipulate any qualification or skills for directors. In this regard, your Committee urges the Executive to urgently amend the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation Act to provide for qualifications for directors and a representative from the ministry responsible for information and broadcasting, and the Director General to sit on the board.

 

Madam Speaker, after due and thorough evaluation of the written and oral evidence presented to it by the witnesses and the interview with the nominees, your Committee is of the view that the nominees are suitably qualified to serve in the positions they have been nominated for appointment.

 

Madam Speaker, your Committee, therefore, urges the House to ratify the Presidential appointment of Mrs Annete Chirumba Nhekairo to serve as Vice Chairperson and Mr Ali Derrick Simwinga to serve as Commissioner of the ECZ, and the ministerial appointment of Mrs Julian Kunda, Ms Mulenga Mpundu Kapwepwe, Mr Nonde Mathews Kaniki and Mr Nalumino Bruce Chyapeni to serve as directors of the ZNBC Board.

 

In conclusion, the Members of your Committee wish to place on record their gratitude to you, Madam Speaker, for appointing them to serve on this very important select committee. In addition, your Committee wishes to thank the State security and investigative agencies and all stakeholder institutions that submitted to it, thus enabling it to make informed recommendations to this House. Your Committee also wishes to thank the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly and her staff for the services and advice rendered to it during its deliberations.

 

Madam Speaker, I beg to move.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Siwale proceeded to take his seat while the Hon. Madam Speaker was on her feet.

 

Hon. Members: Order, order!

 

Mr Siwale assumed the seat nearest to him.

 

Laughter

 

Mrs Jere: Madam Speaker, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to second this very important Motion before the House.

 

Mr Siwale resumed his seat.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mrs Jere: Madam Speaker, allow me to begin by thanking the mover of the Motion and the Chairperson of your Committee, Mr F. Ng’ambi, MP, for the able manner in which he presided over your Committee’s deliberations and the way he has highlighted the pertinent issues raised in your Committee’s report.

 

Madam Speaker, in seconding your Committee’s report, I would also like to commend His Excellency the President for appointing the Vice-Chairperson and a Commissioner of the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ), thus ensuring that the commission has a full complement of commissioners. Your Committee notes that both nominees are immensely qualified and are of high integrity and, therefore, hopes that their appointment will enhance accountability and integrity at the commission, and help restore public confidence in the commission.

 

Madam Speaker, it is also pleasing to note that both the presidential and ministerial appointments took into consideration the promotion of gender equality as, in both cases, 50 per cent of the nominees are female. This is how it should be.

 

Madam Speaker, with regard to the appointment of the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC) Board, your Committee notes that there is a public perception that the ZNBC is biased. As the public service broadcaster, the ZNBC is supposed to be a mouthpiece for all citizens. As such, the board should ensure that it effectively executes the mandate for which it was created and that the ZNBC is transformed into a fair public service broadcaster with a national character. I, therefore, urge the board to provide leadership and guidance to assist the corporation to execute its mandate independently, effectively and to the satisfaction of all the Zambians.

 

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, let me also take this opportunity to thank the Clerk of the National Assembly and her staff for the invaluable support rendered to your Committee during its deliberations.

 

With these few remarks, I beg to second.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr C. Zulu (Luangeni): Madam Speaker, I would like to congratulate both the mover and the seconder of the Motion on a well-presented report. I am in support of the nomination of Mr Ali Derrick Simwinga because I worked with him at Kitwe City Council. When Mr Wynter Kabimba left Kitwe City Council in 1992, Mr Ali Derrick Simwinga did a very good job of changing the appearance of the city. So far, is the longest serving town clerk. I am sure no one will ever beat his record. At one time, he was the leader of all town clerks in the country. He also made sure that Kitwe City Council employees were the most highly paid in the entire country. He worked under President Chiluba, President Mwanawasa, SC., President Banda, President Sata and President Lungu.

 

Madam Speaker, Mr Ali Derrick Simwinga was ambassador at one time. He recently came back from Egypt where he was ambassador. As stated by the mover of the Motion, it is true that Mr Ali Derrick Simwinga served on both the Mwanakatwe and Mung’omba constitution review commissions. I, therefore, have no doubt that he has vast experience that he can share with us younger ones. He also has the institutional memory.

 

Madam Speaker, like the mover of the Motion has said, Mr Ali Derrick Simwinga is a very honest man. He had no criminal record in the more than nineteen years that he worked in the local government.  He is also a frank person. When he came to your office, you felt like you were talking to a friend and not your boss. That is the kind of person he is. As the saying goes, “honesty and frankness will make you vulnerable, but be honest, anyway.” I remember a former aide of the former President of the United States of America (USA), Mr Ronald Reagan, referring to the President as being so honest that he was incapable of being dishonest. That is how I perceive Mr Ali Derrick Simwinga.

 

Madam Speaker, Mr Ali Derrick Simwinga was always ready to listen to his employees, regardless of what position they held in the council. He would joke with anybody, including the cleaners. People were very free with him. I am where I am today because of my acquaintance with Mr Ali Derrick Simwinga. He had a listening ear. As the saying goes, “a deaf ear is a sign of a closed mind.” Mr Ali Derrick Simwinga’s ears were always open.

 

Madam Speaker, with these few remarkss, I support the appointment of Mr Ali Derrick Simwinga to serve as Commissioner of the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ).

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

The Minister of Justice (Mr Lubinda): Madam Speaker, on behalf of the appointing authority, I would like to thank the Committee that was appointed to scrutinise the appointment of commissioners to the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ). I have to state that the appointing authority has taken note of the observations that were raised by the various witnesses who made submissions to your Committee. They were valid observations and we, certainly, shall bear them in mind in future. I also wish to say that we appreciate the support the House has rendered to the two commissioners to serve at the ECZ.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

The Minister of Information and Broadcasting (Ms Siliya): Madam Speaker, I also wish to thank your Committee, headed by Hon. Ng’ambi, for the good work that it did. Let me also thank the House for the overwhelming support towards the nominees appointed to serve as Directors for the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC) Board.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Ng’ambi: Madam Speaker, I wish to thank the hon. Member for Luangeni and the hon. Ministers of Justice and Information and Broadcasting for supporting your Committee’s report.

 

Madam Speaker, I beg to move.

 

Question put and agreed to.

 

________

 

BILLS

 

HOUSE IN COMMITTEE

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

 

THE NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE (Amendment) BILL, 2017

 

Clauses 1, 2, 3 and 4 ordered to stand part of the Bill.     

 

CLAUSE 5 – (Functions of Authority)

 

The Minister of Health (Dr Chilufya): Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 5:

 

  1. on page 10, in line 33

by the deletion of paragraph (c) and the substitution therefor of the following:

 

(c)        accredit health insurance healthcare providers; and

 

  1. on page 11, in line 1

by the deletion of the word “indigent” and the substitution therefor of the words “poor and vulnerable”.

 

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

 

Clause 5, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

 

CLAUSE 6 – (Board of Authority)

 

Dr Chilufya: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 6, on page 12, in lines 5 to 7 by the deletion of paragraphs vii, viii and ix and the substitution therefor of the following:

 

            (vii)      associations for employees in the public sector;

 

            (viii)      associations for employees in the private sector;

 

            (ix)       associations for employers in the public sector;

 

            (x)        associations for employers in the private sector;

 

            (xi)       associations for religious groupings in Zambia; and

 

            (xii)      Zambia Institute of Chartered Accountants;.

 

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

 

Clause 6, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill

 

Clauses 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 and 12 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

 

CLAUSE 13 – (Membership and Registration)

 

Dr Chilufya: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 13, on page 14, in lines 10 to 11 by the deletion of the words “within thirty days of the commencement of the Act” between the words “scheme” and “in”.

 

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

 

Clause 13, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

 

CLAUSE 14 – (Possession of Travel Health Insurance by Foreigners)

 

Dr Chilufya: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 14, on page 14:

 

  1. in the marginal note

by the deletion of the word “travel”;

 

  1. in line 28

by the deletion of the word “travel”;

 

  1. in line 30

by the deletion of the word “travel”;

 

  1. in line 32

by the deletion of the word “private”.

 

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

 

Clause 14, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

 

CLAUSE 15 – (Contributions and Payment Mechanisms)

 

Dr Chilufya: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 15, on page 15, in line 5 by the insertion of the words “in consultation with the Authority” between the words “shall” and “prescribe”.

 

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

 

Clause 15, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

 

CLAUSE 16 – (Persons Exempt from Contributions)

 

Dr Chilufya: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 16, on page 15:

 

  1. in line 12

by the deletion of the number “70” and the substitution therefor of the number “65”; and

 

  1. in line 13

by the deletion of the words “an indigent” and the substitution therefor of the words “poor and vulnerable”.

 

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

 

Clause 16, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

 

Clause 17 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

 

CLAUSE 18 – (Negotiated Fees, Charges and Payment Mechanisms)

 

Dr Chilufya: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 18, on page 15, in line 27 by the deletion of the words “and registered nurses”.

 

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

 

Clause 18, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

 

Clause 19 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

 

CLAUSE 20 – (Benefits of Members Contribution)

 

Dr Chilufya: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 20, on page 16, in line 8 by the insertion of the word “as prescribed”, immediately after the word “Scheme”.

 

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

 

Clause 20, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

 

Clauses 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56 and 57 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

 

Schedule ordered to stand part of the Bill.

 

Title agreed to.

 

THE RENT (Amendment) BILL, 2018

 

Clause 1 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

 

CLAUSE 2 – (Amendment of Section 2)

 

The Minister of Justice (Mr Lubinda): Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 2, on page 3, in lines 5 to 10 by the deletion of Clause 2 and the substitution therefor of the following:

 

2.         Section 2 of the principal Act is amended by the deletion of the definition of “court” and the substitution therefor of the following:

 

         “court” means-

 

  1. in relation to premises for which the rent demanded exceeds one hundred thousand kwacha per year, the High Court;

 

  1. in relation to all other premises, a subordinate court of the first class;

 

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

 

Clause 2, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

 

Title agreed to.

 

THE SUBORDINATE COURTS (Amendment) BILL, 2018

 

Clauses 1 and 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

 

CLAUSE 3 – (Amendment of Section 20)

 

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 3, on page 4

 

  1. in lines 9 to 13

 

by the deletion of subparagraphs (vi) and (vii);

 

  1. after line 28

 

by the insertion of the following new clause:

 

Civil jurisdiction of21. (1)In civil causes and matters, a Subordinate

Subordinate Courts ofCourt of the second class shall, within the territorial

second classlimits of its jurisdiction, have all the jurisdiction conferred by section twenty upon a Subordinate Court of the first class, subject to the limitations contained in that Section.

 

  1. in all personal suits, whether arising from contract or from tort or from both, where the value of property or the debt or damage claimed, whether as balance of accounts or otherwise, is not more than twenty thousand kwacha;

 

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

 

Clause 3, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

 

Title agreed to.

 

THE JUDICIARY ADMINISTRATION (Amendment) BILL, 2018

 

Clause 1 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

 

CLAUSE 2 – (Amendment of Section 13)

 

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 2, on page 3, after line 12 by the insertion immediately after subsection (2) of the following new subsection.

 

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

 

Clause 2, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

 

Title agreed to.

 

_______

 

HOUSE RESUMED

 

[MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

 

The following Bill was reported to the House as having passed through Committee with amendments:

 

The National Health Insurance Bill, 2018

 

Report Stage on Friday, 23rd March, 2018.

 

The following Bills were reported to the House as having passed through Committee with amendments:

 

The Judiciary Administration (Amendment) Bill, 2018

 

The Rent (Amendment) Bill, 2018

 

The Subordinate Courts (Amendment) Bill, 2018

 

Report Stages on Tuesday, 27th March, 2018.

 

REPORT STAGE

 

THE PUBLIC FINANCE MANAGEMENT BILL, 2018

 

The Minister of Finance (Mrs Mwanakatwe): Madam Speaker, I beg to move further amendments as follows:

 

CLAUSE 2 – (Interpretation)

 

  1. In Clause 2

by the deletion of the definition of “property”, introduced at the Committee Stage of the Bill, and the substitution therefor of the following:

 

“property includes any real or personal property, money or chose in action or other intangible or incorporeal property whether located in Zambia or elsewhere and property of corresponding value;

 

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

 

Clause 2, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

 

CLAUSE 7 – (Functions of Secretary to Treasury)

 

  1. In Clause 7, on page 16, in line 25

         by the deletion of the words “who may submit to Cabinet for action”.

 

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

 

Clause 7, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

 

CLAUSE 8 – (Accountant-General)

 

  1. In Clause 8, on page 17, in lines 3 and 4:

 by the deletion of subsection (1) and the substitution therefor of the following:

 

  1. There is an Accountant-General who is a public officer at the level of Permanent Secretary and the head of accounting services in Government.

 

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

 

Clause 8, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

 

CLAUSE 14 – (Controller of Internal Audit)

 

  1. In Clause 14, on page 23, in lines 31 and 32:

by the deletion of subsection (1) and the substitution therefor of the following:

 

  1. There is a Controller of Internal Audit who is a public officer at the level of Permanent Secretary and the head of internal audit services in Government.

 

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

 

Clause 14, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

 

CLAUSE 41 – (Management of Public Assets and Stores in Ministries and Government Agencies)

 

  1. In Clause 41, on page 37, in lines 26 to 28:

by the deletion of subsection (9) and the substitution therefor of the following:

 

(9)        The Accountant-General shall issue guidelines for accounting, recording and reporting of Government assets and liabilities.

 

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

 

Clause 41, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

 

Report adopted.

 

Third Reading on Friday, 23rd March, 2018.

 

______

 

MOTION

 

REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE, LANDS AND NATURAL RESOURCES ON THE REPORT OF THE AUDITOR-GENERAL ON SUSTAINABLE FOREST MANAGEMENT

 

 (Debate resumed)

 

Mr Mutelo (Mitete): Madam Speaker, I would like to thank you for allowing me to debate on this Motion.

 

Madam, to start with, allow me to go straight to page 7 …

 

Mr Mweetwa: On a point of order, Madam.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

 

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Speaker, thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to rise on a point of order that I consider serious. I wish to preface my point of order by stating that this morning, I passed through Woodlands Police Station to see how my elder brother, Hon. Dr Kambwili, is doing in detention. I think if he was still a member of the Patriotic Front (PF), he would not have been where he is. That is the tragedy of this country.

 

Madam Speaker, my point of order is premised on a matter that I find to be very serious. There are many stories on social media, saying that yesterday, the hon. Minister of Housing and Infrastructure Development and his Permanent Secretary underwent a rigorous investigation on corruption allegations which lasted more than three hours.

 

Madam, I was wondering if the Government is in order not to tell this House and the nation, through the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC), that such important steps are being taken by the PF Government to fight corruption. If that is true, we want to begin asking why he is not being asked to step down as an hon. Minister.

 

I need your ruling, Madam Speaker.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The hon. Member for Choma Central has cited the source of his information as social media and no other source. Without verifiable information being presented to this House on this matter, it is very difficult for the Chair to confidently trust the authenticity of the information that the hon. Member for Choma Central is bringing to this House. So, the Chair cannot rule on that point of order in the absence of authentic information being brought to the House.

 

Mr Lubinda: He is rumour mongering!

 

Mr Mutelo: Madam Speaker, I support your Committee’s report on the Report of the Auditor-General on Sustainable Forest Management. Like I said earlier on, I will be making reference to page 7 of your Committee’s report. When I was younger, our traditional leaders and parents used to discuss the issue of forests. They used to tell us not to cut certain trees when we went into the forest. If you were found cutting such trees, the traditional leaders would punish you. The trees we were not allowed to cut included mubula, muzauli, muhwahwa, muhuluhulu, mumosomoso, Mukula and rosewood.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mutelo: Guava nei siyo mwamushitu, tate.

 

Tempering with such trees was totally forbidden. In other words, it was taboo. In this regard, not bringing traditional leaders on board in the management of forests leads to nyambwa naleka, meaning it is free for all.

 

Madam Speaker, I was totally disturbed when I went through your Committee’s report. That is why I am saying it is a free for all kind of situation. Maybe, the Government is deliberately neglecting our forests. On page 7, the report states as follows:

 

“The audit was conducted in accordance with the provisions of Article 121 of the Constitution of Zambia, the Public Audit Act No. 13 of 1994 and the Public Finance Act No. 15 of 2004, and the International Organisation of Supreme Audit Institutions (INTOSAI) Standards and audit policies and procedures established by the Office of the Auditor-General which conform to the requirements of International Standards on Auditing.”

 

Madam Speaker, I am sorry. That was page 5. Page 7 states that:

 

“It was reported by the Auditor-General that there were 483 forest reserves in Zambia which needed to have management plans. However, according to the Forestry Department’s Annual Report for 2012 to 2015, the Forestry Department did not prepare and implement Forest Management Plans in any of the 483 forest reserves.”

 

Madam, allow me to quickly move to the part of your Committee’s report that I find really painful, which states that:

 

“A review of the Forestry Department’s Annual Reports (2012-2015) showed that the Forestry Department lacked forestry inventory equipment such as measuring tapes, Suunto clinometers for tree height measurement, caliper diameter tapes for diameter measurement, Global Positioning System (GPS) for measuring geographical coordinates, and bush nail for distance measurements, Geographical Information System (GIS) facilities for image analysis and change detection.”

 

Madam Speaker, how can the Forestry Department not have measuring tapes and forest guards? It lacks so many things. This is what is termed in Lozi as nyambwa naleka. Additionally, the few forest officers in the department have no transportation. When I was younger, we used to protect the forests. We were told not to burn forests anyhow. This is why I think the failure to manage forests is deliberate so that our endangered species like the Mukula and rosewood can be cut illegally.

 

Madam Speaker I think that this illegality is being legalised. For instance, some Mukula timber, which was illegally harvested, was seized, but later released and sold without a court order. However, Article 82 the Forest Act No. 4 of 2015 says:

 

“Where there is reason to believe that an offence has been committed, any major forest produce felled, cut, collected or removed contrary to the provisions of this Act and any tools, instruments, plants, machinery, equipment, vehicles and other property suspected to have been used in the commission of the offence, may be seized by an authorised officer and detained until an order of the court is made regarding the disposal thereof.”

 

Mr Mutelo: Madam Speaker, the seized Mukula timber found its way to India through the Zambia Forestry and Forest Industries Corporation (ZAFFICO). Our forests are deliberately not being guarded to facilitate the illegal cutting and disposal of Mukula timber. Whatever is realised from the sale of the timber does not reach the coffers of the Government. Even when the timber is harvested and sold legally, the real amount of the sale is not given. For instance, when a tonne of Mukula logs costs, maybe, US$2,500 per tonne, the people who export them will say that the price was US$600 per tonne. When you ask them where the other US$1,900 went, they say that they paid customs duty and other charges.

 

Madam Speaker, as long as we do not guard the resources God has given us, we will not be able to pass them on to the next generation. Because of greed, we want to deplete all the resources now and forget about tomorrow. Our great grandchildren will not have oxygen because when we cut all the trees, no oxygen will be produced. If our focus today is on monetary gain and we do not guard our forests, there will be no oxygen tomorrow or in a few years’ time.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mutelo: Madam Speaker, your Committee’s report has explained that the Forestry Department should be put in order so as to guard our forests. In as much as water is life, forests are also life. 

 

Madam Speaker, allow me to end by saying that we should involve traditional leaders in guarding our forests. When I was younger, I used to be told, “kota ye kimwila”, meaning I could not cut a certain tree because doing so was taboo.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Mutelo: I am being reminded that the Mukula trees we are cutting today are here because traditional leaders and forest rangers of the past preserved them. God created trees and told us to take care of them and use them properly. If we misuse the trees today, our children will not have oxygen.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Katuta (Chienge): Madam Speaker, thank you for allowing the voice of Chienge to be heard in the debate on this very important report.

 

Madam Speaker, forestry is the most important natural resource which every government should protect. In China, for instance, when someone is found cutting a shrub from certain forests, he/she is imprisoned. I am concerned about what is happening to our forests in this country. I will start with the issue of Chief Nyawa of Kazungula who gave out 100,000 ha of land to the Government for the Bamboo Tree Project. Does the chief know the value of the bamboo tree?  If he was well-informed about the value of this tree, he would not have given out the land before consulting ...

 

Ms Kapata: On a point of order, Madam.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

 

Ms Kapata: Madam Speaker, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to raise a very serious point of order.

 

Madam, I think this Parliament is losing its value because people come here to debate hearsay. They should debate reality and not issues from social media.

 

Is the hon. Member of Parliament for Chienge in order to say that Chief Nyawa has given us 100,000 ha to grow the bamboo tree, when he has not done that? Is she in order to comment on a matter she has no facts about? 

 

Madam, I need your serious ruling.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The point of order is sustained, and I would like the hon. Member of Parliament for Chiengi Parliamentary Constituency to state her source of information. If it is information that is verifiable, she should merely refer to it and continue.

 

Hon. Member, if your source of information is verifiable, you should state so. That means that you will have to bring the information to the House at some point. Therefore, the point of order by the hon. Minister of Lands and Natural Resources is sustained.

 

Hon. Member, you may continue.

 

Mrs Katuta: Madam Speaker, thank you for your guidance.

 

Madam, there are media houses in this country, and the matter I referred to was reported on the 1900 hours and 2100 hours Muvi Television news bulletins although I am not sure of the date when it was aired. If am asked to go and get a video clip of the news item and bring it to the House, I can do so. However, on that news item, I saw the hon. Minister thanking the chief.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mrs Katuta: She said, “thank you. We should start growing the bamboo before the rainy season ends.” I watched that on the news. However, I stand to be corrected on the hectarage of the land in question.

 

May I continue?

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Yes, you may, hon. Member. I am just worried that now you are not so sure about the hectarage, yet you stated it as a fact. For that reason, you may not discuss that particular allocation of land. You should discuss the report on the Floor of this House.

 

You may continue.

 

Mrs Katuta: Madam Speaker, it is important that our chiefs are well informed about the value of the land or the contents of the land that they are giving out, whether to the Government or anyone else. That is the point I was driving at. The bamboo has value. If you check its value on the internet, you will see that the lowest amount you can pay for it is US$35. I know what I am talking about.

 

Madam Speaker, I am concerned about the race at which chiefs in the country are giving out land, be it to the Government or investors. In my language, we say, ubukulu bwa mfumu ni mpanga, meaning if the chief does not have much land, then, he is not worth being called a chief.

 

Madam Speaker, the Auditor-General’s Report is clear about what is happening regarding the allocation of land in this country. I would like to urge the Government to take the issue of land seriously because it is not just our heritage, but that of our children and children’s children. In as much as the Government owns all the land, its value should be made clear to the chiefs, elders and chiefs’ advisers who will, in turn, inform the people. All that is important is for the Zambians to appreciate the value of the forests that we have in this country. If we understood the value of our land and natural resources, we would not be hearing all these stories about the Mukula tree. The people who own land should benefit from the proceeds from the sale of resources from their land.

 

For instance, Madam Speaker, if we bring an investor in the agriculture sector, whose investment will be on commercial basis, the owners of the land should understand the benefits of allowing an investor to set up a commercial venture on their land. We know of some people who acquired farming blocs on the pretext of going into commercial faming but, when you go there, you will find that they are engaged in another activities.

 

Madam Speaker, the Government should start sensitising the people about the value of land so that they do not give land to foreign investors anyhow.

 

Madam Speaker, it is time we came up with a law that will compel investors not to sell land at exorbitant prices at the end of their ninety-nine year leases. For instance, if you bought some land at a price as low as K2, you cannot resale it later at an exorbitant price. The Zambians can no longer afford land. Wherever you go, it is difficult to acquire land because all of it is now owned by foreigners who are selling it at high prices. For instance, you will find a five-acre piece of land being sold for K60,000. How are we going to own land if its price is this high and our taxes are too high to enable us to save. The Government should put the interest of the people of this country first, and ensure that land is in right hands. That way, every Zambian will benefit from the agricultural activities in the country. Somebody can get a farm plot with a view to developing it into a commercial farm, but that does not happen because of a lack of capital.

 

Madam Speaker, I wish to appeal to the Government to listen to the cry of the villagers who are giving out their land because they are not well informed. The Government should also listen to those who speak on behalf of the chiefs who are giving out land without understanding its value. If the Government pays attention to the issues that I have talked about, then, it will be doing justice to the Zambian people.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Mweetwa (Choma Central): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for giving me an opportunity to add the voice of the good people of Choma and that of the United Party for National Development (UPND) to this very important Motion on the Floor of the House.

 

Madam Speaker, may I begin by congratulating the Zambia National Football Team on its well-deserved victory last night. As usual, the hon. Minister has ‘run away’ (pointing at the empty seat for the hon. Minister of Youth Sport and Child Development). I enjoyed that game.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Ministers do not run away. They go to attend to other Government business in their offices.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: You may continue.

 

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Speaker, I wanted to commend the hon. Minister for the work that the team has done on behalf of the people of Zambia. Last night, I felt very proud, and I hope that the team will win the tournament.

 

Madam Speaker, let us deal with issues as they are, and not personalise them. If you are a Member of Parliament for Choma Central Parliamentary Constituency and people are talking about your constituency, you should not be emotional because Choma Central is not yours. I will use the words of former President Rupiah Banda, si ya nyoko.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Speaker, we are talking about issues affecting the country.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: What does si ya nyonko mean?

 

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Speaker, it means that it is not yours.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Speaker, I am interpreting the syntactical meaning, not the literal meaning. We are discussing a serious issue here. I believe that when we come here, we should confront issues seriously because the nation expects that of us.

 

Madam, I read your Committee’s report and its findings made very sad reading. In fact, I ended up concluding that this report is a damning indictment and a living testament to the lack of leadership in this sector. It is as if we do not have a minister or a ministry in office to administer this sector.

 

Interruptions!

 

That is what the report of your Committee is saying, not me.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mweetwa: Your Committee’s report has said that there are no management plans in the administration of this sector. It is not me who is saying that. It is in the report. Hon. Members should read it if they have not yet read it. They should learn to read before they argue.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Speaker, your Committee’s report has said that there is no inventory on equipment for the administration of this sector.

 

Interruptions 

 

Mr Mweetwa: Hon. Members should read page 7 of your Committee’s report before they start murmuring.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mweetwa: There is no supervision of forest harvesting. Supervision has to do with leadership. If there is no supervision, there is no leadership. If there is leadership, it is bad leadership. Just harvesting Mukula.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Speaker, most concession holders are not Zambian citizens. This sector is understaffed. That is what your Committee’s report is saying. If some hon. Members believe that I am trying to politick, they should know that I have no time for politicking. We need to begin to confront issues.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Address the Chair, hon. Member for Choma Central!

 

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Speaker, it is you I am addressing, except that I am looking in the direction that I feel like looking.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Speaker, in this country, there is the issue of harvesting Mukula tree. Trees are not perennial like maize which we can harvest within three months. Trees grow over years. We do not have a say over where the Mukula tree grows. This is an asset given to this country by God, and whose value, at the moment, is more than that of the many minerals that we have in this country, yet we have a leadership that cannot see this tree as an asset that should contribute to the economy of this country for the benefit of present and future generations.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Speaker, the Government announced a fictitious ban on the export of Mukula the same way a ban was announced on the export of maize while some people are exporting it illegally because they are in the Government. A ban on the export of Mukula was announced while trucks laden with Mukula timber are being impounded everyday. Not too long ago, some Patriotic Front (PF) cadres impounded trucks carrying Mukula timber in Shimabala because they were fed up of their leaders stealing when they are not benefitting.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Choma Central, withdraw that word. You know it is unparliamentary. Please, withdraw it and continue with your debate.

 

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Speaker, I withdraw it, but with a caveat that this is a word which, in terms of Section 265 of the Penal Code, has been approved by this House to define theft. So, how can this House ...

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Choma Central!

 

According to our rules of debate, that word is unparliamentary, and you cannot use it. Simply withdraw it and proceed using parliamentary language.

 

Mr Mweetwa: I am much obliged, Madam Speaker.

 

I was saying that not too long ago, some PF cadres impounded truckloads of Mukula logs. The reasons they gave were that they could not have a small clique of individuals benefiting from the resources of this country, yet they got into power through the PF, which was created as a noble vehicle for political change in this country. However, the PF has since been highjacked.

 

Madam Speaker, thieves can hijack my vehicle and use it in a robbery. Then, my vehicle becomes bad because it is being used for criminal activities the same way that the PF is behaving today. How long are we going to continue to sit, laugh and smile at each other when we have a country to run? We have an obligation to bequeath this country to our children and their children, …

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mweetwa: ... yet we are here laughing as though all is well. People are getting rich and they come here to boast about the riches they have amassed through criminality.

 

Mr A. B. Malama: Iwe!

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mweetwa: They are building flats all over the country when the people who elected them into office are suffering.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Shame!

 

Mr Mweetwa: How long are we going to sit and keep quiet? How long are we going to continue doing this?

 

Madam Speaker, for the United Party for National Development (UPND) the Mukula tree is a beautiful discovery. The Chinese are making gun butts and dashboards for expensive vehicles in China from Mukula. Therefore, ...

 

Mr Chisopa: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

 

Mrs Phiri: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

 

Hon. Members: Who?

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: There are two of you on your feet. Hon. Mumbi Phiri, please, take your seat.

 

Mrs Phiri resumed her seat.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mutelo: She was referring to the other hon. Member!

 

Mr Chisopa: Madam Speaker, yesterday, the hon. Minister of Justice guided this House that those accusing others of theft, you should substantiate your allegations. The hon. Member for Choma Central is accusing the Government of theft without substantiating its allegations. Is the hon. Member in order to fail to substantiate his allegations?

 

I need your serious ruling, Madam.

 

Interruptions

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The problem I have with that point of order, hon. Member for Mkushi South, is that you are making reference to what the hon. Minister said in his debate and not the rules of the House, which are in our Standing Orders, the law and the Members’ Handbook. To that extent, your point of order is not sustained. However, ...

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: … I would like to urge the hon. Members debating to use civil language and ensure that there is mutual respect. We should avoid sarcasm in our debates. We should also avoid generalisation when making reference to criminality.

 

That is my ruling.

 

Mutual respect is extremely important if we are going to be relevant in our work as Parliament.

 

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Speaker, I duly appreciate your guidance. I will do everything possible to maintain civility in my language. It is only that sometimes, I am driven by the passion and love I have for this country. I cannot sit quietly and watch people doing wrong things, yet I am representative of the poor. Some people are abusing the poor.

 

Ms Phiri: Substantiate!

 

Mr Mweetwa: How do you want me to substantiate? Did you not hear me talk about Shimabala?

 

Mrs Phiri: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Mweetwa: Not too long ago in Shimabala, ...

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Business was suspended from 1810 until 1830 hours.

 

[MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

 

Mr Mweetwa: When business was suspended, I had just begun to state what we, in the United Party for National Development (UPND), think should be done. We do not want to criticise the Patriotic Front (PF) Government and not help them with some advice because they need a lot of advice. Look at them. They need advice. Look at them, Madam Speaker.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Speaker, I am a patriot. I will speak and defend my country at any cost.

 

Mr Michelo: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mweetwa: That includes my life.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mweetwa: I have the courage to speak not because I am not afraid, but because I realise that there is something more important than fear. So, be prepared to hear what has to be said to you for the sake of the country.

 

Mrs Mulyata: Mau ayo!

 

Mr Mweetwa: In a democracy, there is no need for us to sing praises for you (pointing at the Front Bench). Your Backbench can sing praises for you, but our job is to tell you what you need to hear.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mweetwa: Democracy is about giving divergent views and this is a ‘market place’ for us to compete. Do not feel offended. There is nothing personal. When we leave this place, we go and have tea together. We would have done our job for the people.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mweetwa: I was saying that we cannot continue to have a leadership in place which is wasteful. The country has discovered what I can call gold because Mukula is gold. Then, a fictitious ban is put on the export of Mukula while it is being exported illegally

 

Mr Mwamba: Question!

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mweetwa: Instead of the police impounding the trucks loaded with Mukula timber, they were impounded by Patriotic Front (PF) cadres who were aware of their manoeuvres. We are aware that the police have been told to leave trucks laden with Mukula timber alone  because that is where money is made that is used to sponsor youths to commit acts of violence so that those …

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: No, hon. Member for Choma Central.

 

You cannot go there. You have no evidence of any youths being sponsored to commit acts of violence. To that extent, please, refrain from that kind of debate. Let your debate flow. Enjoy your debate. Do not allow yourself to be derailed with interjections and points of order. Flow with your debate.

 

Continue hon. Member for Choma Central.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Speaker, thank you very much for the wise counsel. I will endeavour to follow it.

 

Madam Speaker, the substantive point I was about to begin to espouse is that we, in the UPND, see Mukula as a precious asset. It is a diamond if you like.

 

Mr Michelo: It is gold!

 

Mr Mweetwa: It is gold.

 

If the UPND were the ones in power and not the PF, ...

 

Mr Ng’onga: Question!

 

Mr Mweetwa: Are you not PF?

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Speaker, if the UPND was in power, the Mukula would have used prudently before being exported. In fact, we hold the view that the Mukula tree provides a very rare window of opportunity to begin industrialisation and value addition. This is because the Mukula is a rare tree, and Zambia has found itself in a unique position to it. The UPND would have asked the Chinese to bring technology and set up industries here in Zambia to process the Mukula that they cherish and want so much ...

 

Mrs Mulyata: Correct!

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mweetwa: ... so that the Mukula is harvested and processed locally.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mweetwa: If you are making gun butts, make them here …

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mweetwa: If you are making dashboards fro vehicles, make them here, ...

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mweetwa: ... then, export the finished products.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mweetwa: Mukula is an indigenous tree, not Chinese.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mweetwa: So, why should the Chinese export products of Mukula when they have no Mukula?

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Correct!

 

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Speaker, this is happening because we have a leadership that does not think properly.

 

Hon. PF Members: Question!

 

Mr Mweetwa: It has no proper priorities. Look at what is happening in this country. Today, there are a lot of construction activities in this country. I remember …

 

Mr M. Zulu: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

 

Mr M. Zulu: Madam Speaker, I rise on a very serious point of order. This is a noble House where we, the hon. Members of the House, ought to debate with candour and honour. However, some hon. Members debate in an infuriating manner that does not depict the nobleness of this House.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr M. Zulu: Madam Speaker, the pre-current debater on the Floor stated that we have no leadership. This statement can infuriate the other side of the House, and it does not denote the candour and honour with which we, the Parliamentarians, ought to debate. Is the speaker, therefore, or rather the pre-current …

 

Interruptions

 

Mr M. Zulu: … debater, Hon. Mweetwa, in order to debate in a manner that does not depict the nobleness and candour that he ought to depict?

 

Interruptions

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, the ruling of the Chair is that, as a House, we have rules and Presiding Officers.

 

Mr Michelo: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: You have the law, which you all know and you refer to as Cap 12 of the Laws of Zambia, and which gives privileges and freedom to hon. Members of Parliament. You also have the Standing Orders and, as I said earlier on, the Members’ Handbook. I would urge all hon. Members to acquaint themselves with the rules of the House as well as Cap 12 of the Laws of Zambia so that when you debate, you do so with the knowledge of the limits within the law. You also need to read the Standing Orders so that you know what is permitted and what is not permitted. I also wish to say that each one of you has a different style of debate.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The Chair will look out for language that is not civil and unparliamentary and will always encourage mutual respect. For as long as a Member does not use unparliamentary language or breach any of the rules of debate, the Chair cannot restrain, curtail or stop debate.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Granted, some of you hon. Members may not be pleased with what will be said. That is the whole essence of debate.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The hallmark of good leadership is to sit while something that you do not like to hear is being said, but allow it to be said anyway. Hon. Members, the reason we normally allow the left to debate first and the right to debate last is for the right to correct the information and set the record straight for the benefit of not just the House but the public. For hon. Members on my right, I would like to urge you to exercise restraint and be calm. You should help the Chair to keep the House orderly by simply taking notes. It does not help for hon. Members on my right to continue making running commentaries and objections when they are going to have an opportunity to respond to the issues that are being raised.

 

With that said, the hon. Member for Choma Central will continue with his debate within the rules of debate.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Speaker, the point I was making was that we, in the UPND, see Mukula as a game changer in the economics matrix of this country. When you look at the United Nations Sustainable Development Goals (UN-SDGs) and our Vision 2030, you will find that nobody set the vision for us. We set it for ourselves. We said that by 2030, Zambia should be a middle-income country. We believe Mukula is the basis for such audacity to benefit everybody and not just the clique that is in power. Mukula is not just for those in Government. It is for all of us. Mukula ya bonse.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Speaker, time has come when leaders should begin to sit down and search their souls. Do not come to this House to win political arguments when people are suffering. What type of leadership is that? For how long are we going to continue to politick in this House when the people we represent are suffering? Resources are there, but they are being abused, misappropriated and misapplied.

 

Madam Speaker, one hon. Minister once said in this House that Zambia has been turned into a construction site. She is here and she remembers those words. If you try to find out who the owners of the construction taking place, you will find that they are foreigners. Can you go to China today and get a 1 m x 1 m piece of land and you are given a title deed the same way our land is being auctioned? You sell the NRDC, you sell this and you auction that. We are auctioning a country that does not belong to us. We are just custodians. This country belongs to the future generations. Not too long ago, we were in Canada with my colleagues under the Public Accounts Committee. Canada is almost as big as the continent of Africa. In Canada –

 

Ms Siliya: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

 

 Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

 

Ms Siliya: Madam Speaker, thank you very much for this point of order. On this side of the House (referring to the right), we have no difficulty sitting and listening to debate as long as the debate is as truthful as you have guided. We have no problem listening to debate as long as there is some etiquette in the debate. My hon. Colleague who is on the Floor  said that after this we should all be able to go down and have a cup of tea, but I do not know what was in his cup of tea.

 

Laughter

 

Ms Siliya: Madam Speaker, is the speaker on the Floor in order to refer to this side of the House as people who do not think and, then, continue with his untruths such as the NRDC is sold. If the hon. Member of Parliament who is on the Floor continues to speak like that, there is no way we cannot be incensed. You have continued to guide him as you ruled on the points of order while he is on the Floor. We have waited patiently to hear the advice that he is promising to give us, but he keeps veering. Seriously, there must have been something in the tea that my dear friend drank.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Siliya: Is the hon. Member in order to say that this side of the House does not think and qualify the “not thinking” with untruths such as the NRDC being sold without giving evidence?

 

Is he in order, Madam Speaker.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

The hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting has raised a point of order. However, I have not heard the hon. Member discuss the issue of the NRDC land after the break.

 

Hon. Government Members: Just now!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The hon. Members on my right have heard the hon. Member on the Floor discuss the NRDC land. Before break, the hon. Member also discussed the issue of not thinking. I remember he mentioned that.

 

Interruptions

 

Hon. Government Members: Even now!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, I am afraid, I may have to ask for the verbatim at a later stage. I have been listening to the debate. Obviously, if you want to go back, I will have to read the verbatim and rule at a later stage. I will take advantage of this point of order by the hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting to guide the hon. Member for Choma Central, again, to be civil in his debate.

 

Hon. Member, you have three minutes and thirty seconds left on the Floor, and I hope that you will not leave me with no choice but to cartel your debate. I hope it will not go to that extent. Hon. Members, hon. Ministers are people just like yourselves, and I think they deserve respect just like you all do. Like I said earlier on, I expect that you will show respect towards each other in your debate.

 

Continue with that debate. I have taken note of your point of order, hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting, and I will look at the verbatim. I will certainly make a ruling at that stage.

 

Please, continue.

 

Mr Mweetwa: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I am just concerned that reference was made to the tea which we took during the break.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I have ruled. So, there should be no further discussion on the tea.

 

Please, continue, hon. Member. You have three minutes.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Speaker, I was saying that one hon. Minister once said on the Floor of the House that Zambia has been turned into a construction site, which is true. There is a lot of construction going on in this country, and this is an undeniable and inextricable fact. The question is: Who are the owners of the construction projects? They are foreigners. We are auctioning our economy into the hands of foreigners. We now have a situation where the Zambians rent office space and houses from foreigners when it should be the other way round. However, we have a leadership which people elected into office. My colleagues can speak in here and use the public media, which you abuse, to advance your points. However, let us serve the people who voted for us.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Choma Central, I think that you have now run out of issues.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mweetwa: I have not. I have one more issue.

 

Laughter

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Continue, but I am listening.

 

Laughter

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Nkombo: Continue to parley!

 

Mr Mweetwa: Madam, on a very serious note, the issues that we are raising on the Floor of the House in relation to the administration and management of our forests, especially the Mukula tree, requires soul searching on the part of those who have the mandate of the people to rule. However, when the time comes for them to leave office, let them not be found on the wrong side of history. They have the opportunity to make amends and administer our resources, especially the Mukula tree, for the benefit of the present and future generations so that together, we can bequeath a better country to our children and their future.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Jamba (Mwembezhi): Madam Speaker, I am delighted to be given the opportunity to debate the Motion on the Floor. I am mindful that I need to be civil in my language …

 

Laughter

 

Mr Jamba: … so that I do not make mistakes.

 

Madam Speaker, as I was going through the Report of the Auditor-General on Sustainable Forest Management, I noticed that it was not different from the Report on National Parks. I will start by stating the import of our forests. In Mwembezhi, roofs of some classrooms are blown off because of deforestation and the perceived agriculture development. People are saying the reason there is a lot of deforestation is that the population has grown. If we engage in afforestation, the wind would not blow off the roofs of classrooms. The Office of the Vice-President is always attending to disasters. Afforestation would help reduce such disasters. Therefore, it is important that we look after our forests because they are a source of employment. Like national parks, there are people who are employed to guard the forests. However, uniforms for forest guards were last bought in 2001 by the then hon. Minister of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection who bragged about this in one of your Committee’s reports. We need to preserve the forestry industry because it can generate revenue and create employment.

 

Madam Speaker, I grew up on the Copperbelt.

 

Hon. PF Members: Where?

 

Mr Jamba: The Forestry Department employed many people. In the past, when you drove from Ndola to Kitwe, you would see a lot of forests.

 

Mr Kufakwandi: Yes!

 

Mr Jamba: Madam Speaker, much as it is a good thing for us to develop our country, we must be mindful of the effects of deforestation. A new airport will be built in Ndola. However, as the site is being cleared, the Government should find land for afforestation on a larger scale. Hon. Minister of Lands and Natural Resources, there is no malice in what I am talking about because I am speaking the truth. The people who will be affected by the construction of the airport are supposed to be resettled in areas where we can practice afforestation on a large scale. However, like I said earlier on, the Government should find land for afforestation so as to maintain the rain forest on the Copperbelt. Forests create employment for carpenters and other people who earn a living from forests. So, we need them.

 

Madam Speaker, let me also talk about the national reserve, particularly Kawena Forest in Mwembezhi. When Shibuyunji was declared a district, some people were displaced and we suggested that they live in Kawena Forest. I will not talk about the Chinese, but the Zambians because we think differently. The way I would handle money is different from the way the people of Mwembezhi would handle money. If Kawena Forest in Mwembezhi is gazetted, who is going to own the plots? If the forest is reserved for the people of Shibuyunji, I expect those who have been displaced to pave way for the creation of a new district to be given land in Kawena Forest. I do not expect people who live in Foxdale to have 2,000 ha of land in Kawena.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Michelo: Hammer!

 

Mr Jamba: Madam Speaker, all I am saying is that the Zambians should own the forests which were left by their forefathers. I am a land surveyor. Going by the formula used to segregate land, 15 per cent of the mass of this country should be reserved forest. I know the hon. Minister of Lands and Natural Resources will consult the technocrats. They should tell us the percentage we are currently at in terms of forestry in correlation with the15 per cent. At some point, we had reached 10 per cent. Since there has been a lot of deforestation, what is the current percentage of forest? We have to come up with a ratio of the number of trees being planted to those being cut. The Report of the Auditor-General also stated that there are no people to man the forests.

 

Madam Speaker, we need to preserve the forests because they are of great importance to us. For those who live in Lusaka, when the Government decides to degazzette the Lusaka Forest, the question that begs an answer is: Where else are we going to find another forest within the city if we get rid of what we have? If we happen to find another piece of land elsewhere, we should ensure that we promote afforestation.

 

The point I am driving at is that we should not just continue degazetting forests simply because people want land. We risk finding ourselves in a land without trees. If there are no trees left, then, it may be impossible for us to build a paper manufacturing plant, for instance. We will be importing paper from other countries. How can we import paper from other countries when we have got a lot of trees from which we can manufacture paper?

 

Madam Speaker, can you imagine that even the seat for the Hon. Mr Speaker is imported from China, yet we can manufacture it here since we have the wood.

 

Ms Katuta: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kamboni: Hammer, hammer!

 

Mr Jamba: So, the importance of preserving our forests cannot be over emphasised. Unless we want to turn our country into a desert, we should continue cutting down trees.

 

Madam Speaker, there is no malice in my debate. All I am simply saying is that Zambia is our country. Therefore, let us preserve our forests.

 

Madam Speaker, this reminds me of a village, not far from here, called Kamaila, which has got good forests, but has been degazetted and demarcated into farm plots. If it has been degazetted, where are the trees going to be planted? I ask because the trees that are found in this area are over fifty years old. Some of them are older than all of us in here.

 

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Jamba: Unfortunately, the Government has decided to degazette and demarcate this forest into farm plots. For instance, they are allocating farm plots to people like Mr Jamba since he has got the money to buy land. If they give me a plot in that area, I will cut down all the trees and plant crops.

 

Amb. Malanji: Are you master?

 

Mr Jamba: Madam Speaker, I think I have made my point and the hon. Minister has heard. I do not want to stay long on the Floor, but wish to simply advise the hon. Minister that when she degazettes a forest, she should ensure that she finds alternative land where there can be massive tree planting.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Jamba: As regards the displaced people in newly-created districts, I wish to state that when people are given land to settle on, there are times when influential people such as Hon. Jamba get 5,000 ha of the land while the displaced people get nothing.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Jamba: We should change the way we do things.

 

Thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Katuta: Tell them!

 

Ms Phiri (Kanyama): Thank you, Madam Speaker, for giving me the opportunity to debate the Report of the Committee on Agriculture, Lands and Natural Resources on the Auditor-General on Sustainable Forest Management.

 

Madam, the responsibility of looking after our national resources is for everyone and not just those in the Government. I say so because as a Member of Parliament for Kanyama Constituency, I know what is lacking and what is needed in my area.

 

I have witnessed Her Honour the Vice-President launch two tree planting exercises in my constituency. However, how many hon. Members, Madam Speaker, have taken the trouble to plant trees in their ‘desert’ constituencies?

 

Interruptions

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Interruptions

 

Ms Phiri: Madam Speaker, in the earlier debates, I heard allegations of people in the Government stealing. All I can say is that it takes a thief to catch a thief.

 

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Phiri: If someone is a criminal …

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member of Parliament for Kanyama, may you withdraw the words ‘stealing’ and ‘thief’.  They are unparliamentary.

 

Ms Phiri: I am sorry, Madam Speaker. Birds of the same feather flock together.

 

Laughter

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Phiri: Madam Speaker, if the people making such allegations have evidence, they should help the people of Zambia by reporting the criminals to the relevant authorities. They should not generalise the criminality in this Government, but should report the culprits by name. By now they should be saying that they reported so and so and this is the evidence.

 

Madam Speaker, in 2021, I do not know what the people of Zambia will think about people who are fond of withholding names of criminals. Who are the criminals?

 

Mr Kamboni: Yourself!

 

Ms Phiri: If they know who the thieves in the Patriotic Front (PF) Government are. Why can they not come up with their names?

 

Interruptions

 

Ms Phiri: If, indeed, they were a government in waiting, they would not allow criminals to be part of this Government. What type of government are they going to form if they let criminals continue in Government? Had they been reporting the criminals, they would have been cropped out of this Government by now. They do not report the criminals because they are birds of the same feather. So, there is no need to change governments in future.

 

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Phiri: It seems they are happy to see the natural resources of our country going into wrong hands or into a few pockets when the masses are suffering. It is high time they were judged for what they are. What they allege, is what they might be doing. Truthfully speaking, if at all there is any criminal in this Government, he/she could have been identified by name.

 

Madam Speaker, in the State of the Nation Address on 16th March, 2018, His Excellency the President said that Zambia should be for Zambians. He also said that if we leave Zambia to foreigners, our children will be landless. This shows that he is a caring leader.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Phiri: With regard to the Mukula tree, I am aware that there is a ban on the cutting of this type of tree. Some hon. Members on your left said that some Patriotic Front (PF) cadres confiscated some Mukula timber. Where was the timber from? I am aware that it was from a place where the PF does not exist.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Oh!

 

Interruptions

 

Ms Phiri: So, they confiscated the Mukula timber because they knew its origin.

 

Mr Kamboni: Quality!

 

Ms Phiri: Madam Speaker, any caring Zambian should look after our natural resources regardless of which camp he/she belongs to.

 

Mr Kamboni: Ah, mama!

 

Ms Phiri: If the people who are making such allegations are truthful, they should bring the evidence to this House or take it to the institutions that can look into such allegations.

 

Madam Speaker, I am aware that Mukula timber is not allowed beyond a 100 m radius from where it is felled. It should be processed within that radius. His Excellency the President gave instructions to the hon. Ministers to add value to our products before they are exported. For this reason, I expect the hon. Members on your left to guide the hon. Ministers because, if they are a government in waiting, their role is to offer advice and solutions instead of condemning all the time. Mudslinging will not help us. Let them come up with the names of the criminals.

 

Madam Speaker, I am part of this Government and it pains to hear people make such allegations, especially if they do not mention names. So, when I go into Kanyama Constituency, my people will look at me like a criminal since I belong to the PF. My advice is that the culprits should be mentioned by name. You know that the Government cannot lack ministers because we, the backbenchers are ministers in waiting. Therefore, they should help the President to crop out the criminals. Then, some of us will take up their positions.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Laughter

 

Ms Phiri: So, can they report the culprits to the law enforcement agencies.

 

Hon. Government Member: Kokolapo!

 

Laughter

 

Ms Phiri: If they do not come up with tangible evidence in this House and mention who the criminals are, then, we are going to conclude that they are the same. They ‘eat’ together that is why they fail to mention their names because they are scared people will say that they were together.

 

Laughter

 

Ms Phiri: If not, then, they are liars.

 

Laughter

 

Ms Phiri: They are not telling the truth.

 

Madam Speaker, with these few remarks, I thank you.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! Quality!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I want the hon. Member of Parliament for Kanyama to withdraw the word “liars”. Then, she can take her seat.

 

Ms E. Phiri: Madam Speaker, I withdraw the word “liars” and replace it with the phrase “they are not being truthful”.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Malama (Kanchibiya): Madam Speaker, I would like to thank you for giving me the opportunity to contribute to the debate on this important Motion.

 

Madam, I would like to take this opportunity to thank His Excellency the President for presenting to this House and the nation the direction the country should take. Going back to the time of Independence, young men and women used to encourage each other and adhered to the norms and values …

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Member for Kanchibiya, we are debating the Report of the Committee on Agriculture, Lands and Natural Resources on the Report of the Auditor-General on Sustainable Forest Management.

 

Please, continue.

 

Dr Malama: Quite alright, Madam. I am very cognisant of that fact, except that I would like to lay the background, especially that …

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Malama: … the issues under discussion have a bearing on His Excellency the President’s Address to this House. So, really, I would like to take advantage of this time to thank His Excellency the President. He referred to our national values, which are related to the Motion under debate.

 

National assets have been preserved as a result of the courage of our forefathers during the struggle for independence. They utilised the country’s resources, including the Mukula tree, ...

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Malama: … to build the future of our children and ours.

 

Madam Speaker, our forefathers were determined to fight for independence. One of them even said that he would not wear shoes until all the children of Zambia were able to wear shoes. However, the question is: Where would the resources come from? There are calls for the current generation to utilise and preserve all the resources like His Excellency the President said when he came to address this august House. We should preserve our resources by adhering to our values.

 

For instance, if we deplete our natural resources, which can be used for apiculture or value addition, ...

 

Hon. Opposition Members: What?

 

Dr Malama: Madam, apiculture is bee-keeping. Apiculture can be used for climate change preservation. When the utilisation and preservation of national resources gets curtailed as a result of our failure to apply our national values or because people want to get rich at the expense of the public, we should fight that.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Malama: Madam, in doing so, we should be genuine and not politicise the fight.

 

Ms Katuta: Yes!

 

Dr Malama: Madam Speaker, there are certain aspects and elements that we should call to order. Firstly, there is a need for our generation and, indeed, our brothers and sisters, who are called to work at the frontline in this field, to have the drive to preserve and protect our assets. There is also a greater need to have an honest approach and leadership motivation. I, therefore, would like to urge all hon. Members to ensure that we interpret the value of this rare asset that was cherished by our forefathers in the precincts of the constituencies and the wards we come from. Our forefathers never thought of raising revenue through the taxes that are paid by foreign nations. Therefore, there is a need to have taxes which are home-grown and initiated by this House. The taxes should be within our limits by ensuring that we properly utilise all our resources, particularly our forestry.

 

Madam Speaker, I would like to curtail my debate because I do not want to take long on the Floor. Nevertheless, I would like to thank you and His Excellency my President.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Chali (Nchanga): Madam Speaker, I would like to thank you for giving me the opportunity to debate the Report of the Committee on the Auditor-General Report on Sustainable Forest Management.

 

Madam, I will be very brief because my debate is anchored on the effects of the forest on the Mining Industry.

 

Madam, when this country mostly depended on copper in the early days of our forefathers like Dr Kenneth Kaunda, forests were respected because of the effect they had on the economy of this country. For instance, timber plantations such as Ichimpe and Chati were established on the Copperbelt. A lot of timber was grown because mining production is basically anchored on timber. Timber is needed in the mining industry because it does not store static electricity in areas where blasting takes place. A lot of bamboos are needed to tie explosives for blasting during mining production. Therefore, bamboos still have value.

 

Madam Speaker, previous speakers have lamented that bamboo has no value, but I beg to differ with them because bamboo still has a lot of value.

 

Ms Katuta: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Chali: The mines still utilise thousands and thousands of bamboos in their operations.

 

Madam, in his wisdom, His Excellency the President, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, offered land to  former miners to diversify from mining to agriculture. Alas, land is very difficult to find on the Copperbelt. At least, the Government managed to secure a piece of land in Chingola for the former miners and it is in the process of being demarcated so that it can be given to them.

 

Madam Speaker, some of the forest reserves, which are doted around the Copperbelt, are for miners who are being retired, but the mining industry is old. In Nchanga, for instance, we have been mining for almost eighty years now and you know what effect that has on land. Therefore, I wish to urge the hon. Minister of Lands and Natural Resources to look into the issue of degazetting certain pockets of national parks so that miners who retire can go and settle there and participate in the diversification of our economy from mining to agriculture.

 

Madam Speaker, infrastructure development is not taking place in isolated areas, but nationwide and timber has contributed a lot to the development of infrastructure. The consumption of timber in the country has also increased. However, the question we should be asking ourselves is: Do we still have enough plantation timber or is the plantation timber that we are growing now going to mature in time so that we do not have a deficit in future? This question should be looked into critically. I am not disputing the capacity of the planners that we have in this sector, but we should bear in mind that it is a known fact that timber is still required for the infrastructure development that is taking place at the moment.

 

Madam Speaker, lastly, I would also like to comment on the North-Western Province. I know that there is a lot of native timber in the North-Western Province. When the mines were privatised, the then Environmental Council of Zambia (ECZ), which is now called the Zambia Environmental Management Agency (ZEMA), directed that native timber should not be used in mining operations anymore but only plantation timber.

 

However, there is no plantation timber in the North-Western Province at the moment. There is only native timber. In Shiwang’andu, there is a very big timber plantation which has just been planted. I would like to commend the Ministry of Lands and Natural Resources for coming up with that initiative. The same applies to Kawambwa. So, let us continue with this programme because, honestly speaking, if we take this issue of timber lightly, there will come a time when we shall have a deficit.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

The Minister of Lands and Natural Resources (Ms Kapata): Madam Speaker, I wish to thank you for this opportunity to wind up the debate on the Report of your Committee on the Auditor-General’s Report on Sustainable Forest Management. I also wish to thank all the hon. Members of Parliament for their valuable contributions. I hereby take this opportunity to inform the House that my ministry has been proactive in addressing most of the issues that have been raised in the Auditor-General’s Report.

 

Madam Speaker, allow me to address some of the topical issues which have been raised in the report. On the absence of forest management plans, I am pleased to inform the House that my ministry successfully conducted a National Forest Assessment Exercise under the Integrated Land Use Assessment (ILUA) Phase II Project that has taken an inventory of the forest resources in the country. The results of the report were released on 21st March, 2017. The findings will create a platform for the development of forest management plans for all the 478 forest reserves in the country.

 

Madam Speaker, as regards chiefs’ involvement in the management of forests, the Ministry of Lands and Natural Resources has been actively engaging traditional leaders on various aspects of forest management such as the issuance of forest concession licences, and forest management and protection. It is now mandatory for producers of charcoal and concession licence holders to obtain express consent from the chief before a licence is issued by the Forestry Department.

 

Madam Speaker, concern has been raised on the lack of involvement in sustainable forest management at community level. The Forest Act No. 4 of 2015 has provided for the creation of community forests and placing the management of the forests under communities. To this effect, my ministry prepared a Draft Statutory Instrument on Community Forest Management which shall put forests under the management of communities and guided by the Forest Management Plans. I am pleased to inform this august House that I signed Statutory Instrument No. 11 of 2018 on 14th February, 2018, known as the Community Forest Management Regulations, 2018.

 

Madam Speaker, there was also concern on the management of forest concession areas. The Government is committed to protecting forests in order to conserve nature for sustainable socio-economic development. My ministry will, therefore, will prioritise the employment of more forest guards and honourary forestry officers to increase efforts in this area. My ministry has, therefore, provided for the recruitment of forest rangers in the 2018 Budget.

 

Madam Speaker, the responsibility of looking after forests is for every Zambian, including hon. Members of Parliament. All of us should take part in looking after our forests. Like Hon. E. Phiri said, it has only been the Government that has been spearheading the planting of trees countrywide. We have not seen any hon. Member of Parliament from the Opposition taking up the initiative of planting trees in his/her constituency. Therefore, they should stop ‘barking’ in this House.

 

Interruptions

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Minister, did you use the word “barking”?

 

Ms Kapata: Madam Speaker, I withdraw the word “barking”. Some hon. Members should stop giving false information in this House. I think the Members’ Bar at Parliament Buildings should be closed during working hours because some Members spend time there drinking and come to the House to give wrong information. I emphasise that the Members’ Bar should be closed when Parliament is in session.

 

Interruptions

 

Ms Kapata: Madam Speaker, my ministry is greatly concerned at the high rate of encroachments on forest reserves. In this regard, we have commenced the issuance of eviction notices to people who have encroached on forest reserves. This process shall be extended to include all illegal mining activities that are rampant in forest reserves, especially sand mining.

 

Madam Speaker, some people have talked about the establishment of timber plantations. My ministry will collaborate with the private sector such as the Zambia Forestry and Forest Industries Corporation (ZAFFICO) and other forestry-based private companies in the establishment of plantations.

 

Madam Speaker, the Government has established tree plantations in Northern, Muchinga and Luapula provinces. We are not going to end there, but will extend the programme to all the provinces. 

 

Madam Speaker, the hiving off of the Forestry Department from the Ministry of Lands and Natural Resources is beyond my jurisdiction. This can only be decided by the Cabinet.

 

Madam Speaker, because of inadequate capacity, the ministry has co-opted the defence and security wings to police the illegal harvesting and trade of timber. The Central Joint Operations Committee of the ministry has constituted a sub-committee on Mukula which has been helping to curb the illegal harvesting and transportation of timber, especially Mukula. This has helped reduce the illegal trade and export of Mukula.

 

In the past, there were reports everyday of trucks that are used in the illegal trade of Mukula being impounded. The State security wings have managed to control the situation. Perhaps, some people are getting irritated because they are involved in the illegal trade of Mukula.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Kapata: Madam Speaker, the Forest Act allows the disposing off of timber only through a court order. I think that issue was raised by the hon. Member of Parliament for Sesheke Central. Section 51 of the Forest Act provides for the Director of Forestry to:

 

“Offer forest produce for sale and sell forest produce by auction, tender or estimate at such places and in such manner as the hon. Minister may prescribe by Statutory Instrument.”

 

Madam Speaker, the decision to allow ZAFFICO to sell illegally-harvested Mukula timber is an administrative arrangement that is supported by the Forest Act. Section 5, Sub-section 3 of the Forest Act provides for the hon. Minister to give the Director of Forestry such general or special directions which are consistent with the provisions of the Act.

 

Madam, someone also said that no research is conducted by the Forestry Department. The Forestry Department has a research unit which is located in Kitwe. Various research activities are being conducted in Chati, in Kalulushi and Siamambo in Choma. The research activities include trials on fertilisation of indigenous tree species. At the moment, trials are being conducted on 2 ha of Mukula trees. We want to be able to grow this tree species which seems to be the diamond of Zambia. We do not want to grow it for our sake, but for the sake of future generations. I am sure everybody in this House is aware that this tree takes a hundred years to mature.

 

Madam Speaker, the indiscriminate cutting of timber and unsustainable harvesting of forest products has led to the climate change, which the country is experiencing, as evidenced by the droughts, extreme temperature and flash floods. This has the potential to reverse the economic gains the country has accrued over the years. The forestry sector should, therefore, be supported by every well-meaning Zambian.

 

Madam Speaker, there are different species of bamboo trees. However, we intend to grow the solid bamboo tree. This programme must be supported by all hon. Members of Parliament. The reason is that the solid bamboo tree can replace the trees that are cut for the production of charcoal.

 

Some officials from my ministry and I travelled to Chief Nyawa’s Chiefdom because we want to implement a pilot project to grow solid bamboo trees in his chiefdom. Chief Nyawa is on record as having bemoaned the deforestation that has taken place in his chiefdom. We travelled to his chiefdom to have a meeting with him about growing the solid bamboo trees in his area, and he welcomed the project. At no time did the ministry officials or the chief talk about the hactarage that he would give for this project. The project is going to be rolled out to all the ten provinces. The size of land we need for the pilot project is only 4 ha. After that, the seedlings will be distributed to other districts. At an opportune time, I will present a ministerial statement on the advantages of the solid bamboo tree.

 

Madam Speaker, the insolence being exhibited by some debaters on your left leaves much to be desired.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

 

Ms Kapata: As for controlling the indiscriminate cutting of trees in this country, the Government is on course. We have banned the export of unprocessed Mukula and the ban stands until value is added to the timber within the country. We are aware that where it is exported to in the Far East, people make butts of guns and tables from Mukula. Maybe, even the tables in this House were made from Mukula. The Government is encouraging value-addition. We have enticed some companies from the Far East to come and invest in this industry. We have given licences to some companies to export finished Mukula products. Records are there to attest to this. So, for somebody to come here after taking two tots, and point a finger at me and say that there is nothing that the hon. Minister is doing, ...

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

                                                

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Minister, withdraw the reference to the people on my left as being insolent ...

 

Ms Kapata: I was referring to what he said. I am responding to what he said. Nsha bweshe. I am not going to withdraw it. Nsha  bweshe.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Minister, take your seat.

 

Please, withdraw the word “insolence” and the reference to “two tots” and, then, you may continue.

 

Ms Kapata: Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister demeaned me in his opening remarks.

 

Interruptions

 

Ms Kapata: That is why I am responding to him.

 

Interruptions

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, on my left!

 

Hon. Minister, I have guided you. I need your help. I need you to respond by simply leaving that subject and proceeding with your response.

 

Please, proceed, hon. Minister.

 

Ms Kapata: Madam Speaker, the Government should be commended for what it is doing in terms of ...

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Withdraw!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, on my left!

 

Hon. Minister, please, withdraw those two words before we break for tea.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Kapata: I withdraw the word “insolence”.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Hon. Opposition Members: What have you withdrawn?

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The hon. Minister has withdrawn the word “insolence”. So, it is now on record.  

 

Ms Kapata: Madam Speaker, I will get a verbatim of Hon. Mweetwa’s debate. I think ...

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

 

Ms Kapata: No! I am speaking. Let me speak my mind. He did demean me in his preamble. That is why I am saying that people should come here sober and debate issues as they are. Do not start your debate by demeaning hon. Ministers. He said that things were being done as though there was no hon. Minister in the Ministry of Lands and Natural Resources. That is why I used the word “insolence”. 

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Minister, you have used the word “insolence” again. We are not making progress.

 

Hon. Minister, please, withdraw that word. Simply withdraw it.

 

Ms Kapata: I withdraw it, but they are also showing that they are incorrigible.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

 

Ms Kapata: Yeah. You are showing that you are more incorrigible than some of us.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Business was suspended from 1811 hours until 1830 hours.

 

[MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

 

Ms Kapata: Madam Speaker, before business was suspended, I was saying that given the required support, the forestry sector is capable of making a significant contribution to the gross domestic product (GDP) of the nation. The forestry sector has also been identified as having potential for job and wealth creation in order to alleviate poverty and increase the non-tax revenue.

 

Madam Speaker, we, the hon. Members on your right, have followed your guidance to listen to debates in silence. We have done so even under very serious allegations. My humble appeal is that some hon. Members should not be allowed to behave holier than thou in this House.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Ng’onga: Madam Speaker, allow me to thank the hon. Members of Parliament who debated your Committee’s report as well as those who did not debate. They may not have debated, but I know that they support your Committee’s report. I also wish to thank the hon. Minister for clarifying all the issues that arose in the debate.

 

Madam Speaker, as a Committee, we thank you for the opportunity given to us. I beg to move.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Mecha entered the Assembly Chamber.

 

Hon. Members: Order! Order!

 

Question put and agreed to.

 

_______

 

QUESTION FOR ORAL ANSWER

 

SATURNIA REGNA PENSION FUND SHAREHOLDERS

 

243. Mr Ngulube (Kabwe Central) asked the Minister of Finance:

 

  1. who the major shareholders for Saturnia Regna Pension Fund were;

 

  1. how much money was in the fund as of;

 

  1. 31st December, 1996; and

 

  1. 28th February, 2018;

 

  1. whether any money had been externalised;

 

  1. if so, how much had been externalised;

 

  1. whether the pensioners were adversely affected in any way by the externalisation of funds;

 

  1. if so, in what ways.

 

(Debate resumed)

 

The Minister of Finance (Mrs Mwanakatwe): Madam Speaker, money laundering is the concealment of the origins of illegally-obtained money or ill-gotten gains typically by means of transfer through foreign banks or putting the money into a legitimate business, thereby effectively cleaning it.

 

Madam Speaker, I will answer the question in two parts. Firstly, the funds were externalised with the approval of the trustees who are running the pension scheme. As such, the origin of the money is well known. Where it went, is also well known because it has been traced. Therefore, the illegality is the breach of the procedure through which permission should have been got. This is why we are going to request that the money be recalled so that the proper procedure can be followed.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

_______

 

MOTION

 

MOTION OF THANKS

 

(Debate resumed)

 

Ms Kasune (Keembe): Madam Speaker, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to continue adding the voice of many Zambians, including that of the people of Keembe and mine, to the debate on national values and principles as presented to this House by His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia.

 

Madam Speaker, allow me to quote the words of one of the great men of the African soil, Mr Nelson Madiba Mandela, who once said:

 

“No one is born hating another person because of colour, background or religion. People must learn to hate and, if they can learn to hate, they can be taught to love, for love comes more naturally to the human heart than the opposite of it all.”

 

Madam Speaker, I have referred to this quote because of the issues at hand. We, the leaders of this country have a responsibility to ensure ...

 

Mr Mung’andu: She is reading!

 

Ms Kasune: ... that we talk about the patriotism of this country. It is saddening that lately, we, the leaders in Zambia, are misleading the people of Zambia. We have substituted patriotism with partisanship. If we are going to achieve unity, diversity and have human dignity, the people of Zambia should be given the right to choose which political party they want to belong to because this is the democracy that we chose.

 

Madam Speaker, there was an incident during the Youth Day Celebrations in Chipata where youths from the United Party for National Development (UPND) were told not to march and  referred to as cattle or cows. I stand to be corrected. It is wrong to refer to any person as an animal. Zambia will do well to realise that African Americans were faced with a lot of challenges because they were regarded as contraband instead of human beings.

 

Ms Phiri: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Continue!

 

Ms Kasune: Madam Speaker, I wish to continue with the issue of equality. In Keembe Constituency, schools are struggling with the teacher to student ratio ...

 

Ms Phiri: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

 

Mrs Phiri: Madam Speaker, just yesterday, there was a ruling in a case between Hon. Kampyongo and Hon. Kambwili in which we were guided to provide evidence as we speak. Is the hon. Member for Keembe in order to allege that youths from the United Party for National Development (UPND) in the Eastern Province were stopped from marching and referred to as animals? Is she in order to make that statement without providing evidence?

 

I need your serious ruling as per your guidance, Madam.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The hon. Member for Keembe has, perhaps, not mentioned who, in particular, stopped the youths from marching. If she does mention who stopped the youths and she attributes that reference the UPND youths to a particular grouping or public office, then, certainly, she would have to bring evidence. However, in this case, she has not mentioned who stopped the youths from marching. For that reason alone, I cannot sustain that point of order.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: However, the hon. Member should bear in mind that if she is going to mention any group or individual in that issue, then, certainly, she would have to bring verifiable evidence that a particular person referred to the UPND youths as stated in her debate.

 

The hon. Member for Keembe will continue with the debate.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Kasune: Madam Speaker, thank you for your guidance. Before the point of order, I was talking about the challenges that we are faced with as we try to level the playing field for all the Zambians regardless of political affiliation and region. We know that this can only be achieved if there is a better teacher to student ratio in our schools.

 

Madam Speaker, I speak from experience. In areas like Chiyuni, Chitanda and Namakolongo in Keembe, there are ten thousand pupils against forty-eight teachers. We have to appreciate the plight of the teachers who are trying to educate our students, but are outnumbered because of the high population of pupils. Apart from that, the teachers live in difficult conditions. Sometimes, they have to walk several miles from where they rent homes to get to the schools. My challenge to the Government and those in the Executive is that they should ensure that they create a level playing field, especially in the area of education.

 

Madam Speaker, there is also the issue of political interference in the work of the Permanent Secretary, the District Education Board Secretary (DEBS) and the District Education Standards Officer (DESO). They are faced with some challenges when posting teachers to schools because some teachers refuse to be posted to some schools because they know people in positions of influence. These are some of the issues that every well-meaning Zambian should speak against.

 

Madam Speaker, another issue that I would like to talk about is that of a lack of employment among youths in the whole country. Zambia is a young country. About 65 per cent of Zambia’s population comprises youths and the number has continued to grow. His Excellency the President referred to the issue of alcohol abuse. I have learnt from some of the meetings that we, the hon. Members of Parliament attended, that 50 per cent of psychiatric cases in Zambia can be attributed to abuse of alcohol. My challenge to the Government and leaders is to ensure that employment is created for youths.

 

Madam Speaker, additionally, issues of empowerment and information and communication technology (ICT) initiatives should not be politicised because this will defeat the purpose of the initiatives. It is said that an idle mind is the devil’s playing field. When youths have nothing to do, they tend to abuse alcohol.

 

Hon. Opposition Member: Listen, Mumbi!

 

Ms Kasune: Madam Speaker, it is also sad to see that the policies in place are not strong enough. I would like the hon. Minister of Local Government to visit some constituencies and see what is happening on the ground. People sell alcohol near school premises. I think this should be called out. People should begin to obey the laws of the country.

 

In conclusion, Madam Speaker, many Zambians have bemoaned the high taxes in this country. We, in the Backbench, are here to offer oversight to the Government and remind them about the promises they made to the Zambian people. One of the promises was to lower taxes, create more jobs and put more money in people’s pockets.

 

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Kasune: It is important for the Government to go back and look at how the strategies to lower taxes have been implemented. It is not fair to tax those who are drilling boreholes in rural constituencies like Keembe where access to portable water is still a challenge. Less than 35 per cent of people in rural areas have no access to clean water. This disadvantages many Zambians who do not have water reticulation. Some hon. Members are struggling to get donors and other stakeholders to support the provision of water to our constituencies. I wish to urge the Government to revisit the Statutory Instrument on taxing companies that drill boreholes.

 

Madam Speaker, so much can be said but, once the needs of women, children and youths are taken care of, Zambia will develop.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! Quality!

 

Mr Jere (Livingstone): Madam Speaker, I thank you for according me the opportunity to add my voice to the debate on the President’s Address.

 

Madam Speaker, last year, His Excellency the President addressed the nation in this august House and acknowledged the fact that there was moral decay, high levels of unemployment and, indeed, misappropriation of public resources in this country. He also stated that there was a need for us to develop a code of ethics in the Public Service.

 

Madam Speaker, I wish to quote page 12 of the President’s Address which reads:

 

“If we approach politics as a dirty game, we are very much on the wrong course because politics is supposed to be an instrument of justice, fair play and good behaviour towards fellow human beings.”

 

Madam Speaker, the President also said:

 

“As we reflect on the importance of national unity, Dr Kaunda’s words are as true today, as they were then. They will continue to be relevant as we go forward on our journey to build a truly united country under the banner, One Zambia, One Nation.”

 

Madam Speaker, the State of the Nation Address (SONA) is very important in the sense that it is an occasion where the President is supposed to inform the nation, through this august House, the achievements made and challenges the country is faced with and, indeed, to chart the way forward.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Jere: Madam Speaker, it is shocking that during the period under review, there was an increase …

 

Dr Chanda: Meaning what?

 

Mr Jere: … in the levels of intolerance and injustices.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Jere: For instance, the arbitrary arrest of Sir Hakainde Hichilema and …

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Ngulube: On a point of order.

 

Mr Jere: … the detention of youths from Livingstone …

 

Hon. PF Members: Sir?

 

Mr Jere: … who are alleged to have been behind the many cases of arson that the country experienced. The youths were detained for more than forty days without any charge.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Shame!

 

Mr Jere: Madam Speaker, there was a lot of harassment during this period. It is during this period that the Law Association of Zambia (LAZ) President was harassed. During this period, many people were not free even to enter the Intercity Bus Terminus while wearing colours that were associated with the United Party for National Development (UPND).

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Jere: Madam Speaker, as if that were not enough, we saw what happened recently during the Youth Day Celebrations in Chipata where UPND youths were harassed.

 

Madam Speaker, we take it that there is a total breakdown of the rule of law in the country.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Jere: Madam Speaker, it is only in this country where citizens are guilty until proven innocent.

 

Madam Speaker, the total collapse of the rule of law continued as the Patriotic Front (PF) continued hiding in the old and archaic law of the Public Order Act. We all understand that this colonial piece of legislation is meant to suppress and torture the innocent citizens of this country.

 

Mr Chilangwa: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Jere: Therefore, there is a need for us to review this piece of legislation so that …

 

Mr Chilangwa: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Jere: … when we say that we are proud and free, we, indeed, …

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Jere: … have freedom of movement; …

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Chilangwa: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Jere: … freedom of association and, indeed, …

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Jere: … freedom of expression which is not there at the moment.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Chilangwa: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Minister, please, resume your seat.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Livingstone, please, continue with your debate.

 

Mr Jere: Madam Speaker, His Excellency the President missed an opportunity …

 

Hon. PF Members: Question!

 

Mr Jere: … to clear himself; an opportunity to remove the political tag of corruption that has been placed on his regime ...

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Jere: ... instead of parading the Presidential Press Aid to neither confirm nor deny the allegations.

 

Mr Mung’andu: Question!

 

Mr Jere: Madam Speaker, people may ask what the allegations of corruption are. This is no other than the celebrated scandal of the fire tenders versus the people of Zambia. When you look at the purchase price of the fire tenders and the value at which they were insured, one wonders that a fire tender that was purchased at K10 million can be insured at K2.5 million, giving a difference of K7.5 million. The owners of the money are querying where the K7.5 million went? Off course, it was pocketed by somebody.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Jere: Madam Speaker, there is a dossier which appeared recently that needed to be cleared by the Government. The dossier revealed that the Government spent K17 million taxpayers’ money in three months.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Jere: Madam Speaker, this reminds me of late President Mwanawasa, SC., may his soul rest in peace. When the expenditure for State House was brought to this House, which was about K2 million un-rebased at the time, he queried it.

 

Madam, when you divide the K17 million by three months, it means that the Government was spending well above K5 million per month, ...

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Jere: ... yet there are power blackouts and no medicine ...

 

Mr Michelo: Yes!

 

Mr Jere: ... at the University Teaching Hospital (UTH) …

 

Mrs Phiri: Are you sure?

 

Mr Jere: … and a poor child sitting on a stone in a classroom …

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Jere: … fifty-four years after Independence.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Jere: Madam Speaker, the people would like to know what happened with the Top Star TV deal. I think this Government is supposed to clear such allegations.

 

Madam Speaker, the Patriotic Front (PF) Government has abused the Zambian people without remorse. The citizens of this country are already heavily taxed, but the PF Government is still thinking of collecting more money from them. That is as good as extracting water from a stone.

 

Madam Speaker, just recently, we heard those in the tourism sector say that the introduction of the Bed Levy would increase businesses in this country. Currently, we cannot compare business in Livingstone to that in Victoria Falls. This is because the room rates in Livingstone are triple those in Victoria Falls. 

 

Madam Speaker, there has also been an increase in the price of cement. The Government is talking about the many construction projects that are going on in the country, yet a poor Zambian cannot afford even a bag of cement because the price of cement has sky rocketed. In Livingstone, for instance, before the increment, on average, a bag of cement cost between K50 and K60. At the moment, the price of cement is K70 to K80 per bag. The most affected are those who are starting life and have to pay rentals. At the end of the day, they do not have any disposable income. If people have to be encouraged to own property, we have to lower the cost of building. 

 

Madam Speaker, this Government is empowering the Chinese by giving them contracts while the locals are being ‘cheated’ that they will be given 20 per cent of the contracts. The 20 per cent that the Government is talking about cannot empower any locals. If things were alright, we could have seen many people in the construction industry graduate to higher levels. From the time the PF Government embarked on infrastructure development projects, no Zambian contractor has graduated to another level in the construction industry. Some local contractors are unable to renew their certificates with the National Council for Construction (NCC) due to insufficient funds, yet the Government is boasting that the locals are given 20 per cent of the construction contracts.

 

Madam Speaker, in this country, we have seen the Chinese being given land when we, the citizens, are being displaced. Some people end up being squatters because the Chinese have taken over this country. The Chinese are able to buy land because of the contracts that the Government awards them. 

 

Madam Speaker, last year on the Floor of this House, His Excellency the President promised that 5,000 decent jobs would be created for the youths. In this year’s Address, he said that only 1,000 jobs will be created. What is 1,000 jobs compared to the 5,000 that were promised?

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Jere: Madam Speaker, this Government is now telling the Zambian youths that it is survival of the fittest at the moment. The Government has failed to create job opportunities for youths. We have seen that even security companies are run by the Chinese. These are businesses that should be run by Zambian youths.

 

Madam Speaker, the Chinese are also running poultry businesses and molding blocks. They are all over Lusaka. These are businesses that can be run by youths if they are empowered with capital. There a number of youths who have graduated from college and university and would like to patent they inventions. They need a lot of capital to do that. They have to pay K1,500 for one invention. How can we do that to people who have just left school?

 

Madam Speaker, for this country to develop, we need technology. However, this can only be done with the help of the Government. This is how other countries have developed. We need to empower youths to start businesses.

 

Madam Speaker, as I conclude, I would like to inform the people of Zambia that all is not lost. When we, the UPND come into power, we shall ‘fix’ things. We shall not misapply resources; we shall always spend where it matters,not on trips; and we shall not give somebody who needs a dam a dip tank. We have seen many misplaced projects. When we come into power, we shall consult and work with the people of this country.

 

With these few remarks, I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Imakando (Mongu Central): Madam Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity to debate the address of the Republican President on the progress made on the application of national values and principles.

 

Madam Speaker, I will anchor my debate on two main points, namely the supremacy of God in the affairs of our nation and public sector governance. Before I proceed to do so, I would like to acknowledge and affirm my full agreement to some of the statements that the President made in this august House. On page 3 of his speech, the President said:

 

“The application of national values and principles is firmly anchored in our conviction, belief and acknowledgement of the supremacy of God in the affairs of our nation. I fully appreciate this statement.”

 

Mr Mutale: You are the only one!

 

Dr Imakando: Madam Speaker, page 12 of the speech says:

 

“We are one people. Let us all build upon our motto of “One Zambia, One Nation” to foster national unity. The fact that one was born in the East does not make them less Zambian than those born in the West; neither are those born in the North nor in the South any less Zambian.”

 

Madam Speaker, I wish this were true of Zambia.

 

Madam Speaker, Page 21 of the speech says:

 

“One of the major challenges to good governance and integrity is the issue of corruption. Corruption is a cancer which requires concerted and continuous effort to eliminate. We all have a moral duty and obligation to fight corruption in order to achieve accelerated and all inclusive development.”

 

Madam Speaker, I wish this were also true.

 

Madam Speaker, on page 22, the speech says:

 

“Prudent management of public resources is at the core of good governance.”

 

Madam Speaker, the intentions seem to be noble.

 

On page 27, the President said:

 

“We need a tomorrow where every citizen will be a sworn enemy of corruption, dishonesty and unprincipled living.”

 

Madam Speaker, the President seems to be saying the right things, but we will soon find out. He also said:

 

“Our country expects no less from us. Our people demand no less and future generations expect, demand and deserve no less.”

 

When I examined these statements, the intentions seem good. However, speaking of Zambia as a Christian nation and about the application of values which, I suppose, are Christian values, one would ask why the President did not report on his interactions with our religious fathers; our Bishops. Why did he not give a report on the counsel that he gets from them?

 

Madam Speaker, the late President Michael Chilufya Sata, may his soul rest in peace, said this country will be ruled in accordance with the Ten Commandments. One wonders whether this is still the case in Zambia because some of the things that are happening are contrary to the Ten Commandments. Does the Patriotic Front (PF) Government listen to the counsel of our Christian leaders and mother bodies of mainline churches? One would have expected the President to report on this because Zambia is a Christian nation whose foundation is built on Christian principles. God is represented by His servants here on earth. If the Government means well, it should have a meaningful interaction with the Christian leaders. When the President states that Zambia is a Christian nation, we want to hear more about the Government’s interaction with our Christian leaders.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Imakando: Madam Speaker, with regard to public sector governance, I wish to say that a well-functioning public sector should deliver quality public services consistent with citizens’ preferences and foster private sector growth. The two main factors of public governance include paying attention to the citizens’ interests or preferences and fostering private sector growth. Public sector governance should put the interests of citizens first. The values and principles in Article 8 of our Constitution basically prioritise the citizens’ interests. As citizens of this country, both on the left and right, we should demand better performance of the public sector. It should deliver services that will better our lives.

 

Mr Michelo: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Imakando: Madam Speaker, not long ago, the hon. Minister of Justice talked about the Corruption Perception Index which ranks countries based on how corrupt their public sectors are perceived to be. It ranks countries on the perception of corruption in the public sector. The understanding is that if the public sector is corrupt, it will not deliver services to the people.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Imakando: If services are not delivered to the people, they will remain poor, hungry …

 

Mr Kufakwandi: Ignorant.

 

Dr Imakando: … and ignorant. When the President gives a report on national values and principles, it gives an indication of whether the Zambians are happy or not. It is an indication of whether or not our public institutions are working or not. It is an indication of whether there is sustainable development or not.

 

Madam Speaker, looking at our corruption ranking, which I referred to yesterday, we rank between 96th and 87th in position worldwide. In the last seven years of the PF rule, we have not made progress in curbing corruption.

 

Hon. PF Members: Question!

 

Dr Imakando: To put it another way, our public sector has not improved in delivering services.

 

Interruptions

 

Dr Imakando: Madam Speaker, it is important that our colleagues on the right appreciate the fact that if corruption levels increase, they will deliver nothing to the people of Zambia.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Imakando: An election is coming and the people of Zambia will make their verdict known. I have looked at some of the figures the President referred to in regard to addressing the challenges the youths are faced with. He stated that about 5,000 youths have benefitted from the so- called Government activities.

 

Mr Michelo: Shame!

 

Dr Imakando: The population of youths ranges between 6 million and 8 million, yet the President gave us a figure below 5,000.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Shame!

 

Dr Imakando: Madam Speaker, that is admitting that the Government is going in the wrong direction.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Imakando: Madam Speaker, I expect the Government to facilitate private sector growth and to take the position of referee. When they come to this House, they give us low figures relating to their achievements. They should leave that to the private sector. A thriving private sector will generate taxes – …

 

Mr Kambita: Correct!

 

Dr Imakando: … and we know that the PF Government loves to collect taxes. It will soon introduce the National Health Insurance Bill to tax the people of Zambia.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Borehole!

 

Dr Imakando: I am told borehole taxes are coming.

 

Madam Speaker, what the Government ought to be doing is facilitate private sector growth. That way, more companies will open in Zambia. There will be more jobs in Zambia, more people paying taxes, and it will collect more taxes. The youths that it intends to empower will find empowerment in the private sector. A well-functioning public sector can create an environment for everyone to win. What is happening in Zambia is shameful.

 

Mr Ngulube: Question!

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Imakando: Jobs are very few and far between. Graduates from colleges and universities have nothing else to do, but to do what the President mentioned in his speech. He said that when youths cannot engage in productive activities, they resort to alcohol and substance abuse. The President admitted this.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Imakando: That, in itself, Madam Speaker, is a confession that the PF Government is not developing this country.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Imakando: Madam Speaker, they are looking for evidence, let me give them a little bit of evidence.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Imakando: Madam, only 10 per cent of the Budget for this year is for activities. What can you do with ten per cent? No wonder they have a bigger appetite for borrowing.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Imakando: They have realised that they have no money.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Imakando: So, they are borrowing to put a burden on future generations.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! Jean Kapata!

 

Dr Imakando: Madam Speaker, our colleagues on your right ought to listen to us. They should listen to our alternative policies; listen to President Hakainde; …

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Imakando: … and listen to the Opposition. We offer them free advice. It is in this House that we gave them free advice on the e-Voucher system and they turned a deaf ear. They are now paying the price.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Imakando: Madam Speaker, I would like to urge our colleagues on your right to listen more, and I thank you.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mrs Katuta (Chienge): Thank you, Madam Speaker. I remember the first time I came to this House, I was made to stand and vow to uphold the Constitution, defend the democracy of this country and pay my allegiance to the President of this country. To pay allegiance to the President of this country is to be sincere and remind him of where he is lagging behind as the Head of State.

 

Madam Speaker, I wish to thank you for allowing the voice of the people of Chienge to debate the speech that His Excellency the President, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, made to the nation on 16th of March, 2018. Unfortunately, I wish to say that whoever the author of this speech is – I know it is not the President who wrote it – must be fired.

 

I say so, Madam Speaker, because I came here with high expectations to hear what the President would say in regard to the state of the nation …

 

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!

 

Mrs Katuta: … and the challenges the people of Zambia are faced with.

 

Madam Speaker, when I listened to the President’s speech, it sounded well but, when I read it, I found that it does not address issues on the ground. The speech was about the application of national values and principles. The Government should apply the national values and principles first so that people buy into them. At the moment, however, the situation is questionable.

 

Madam Speaker, the President talked about morality and ethics, patriotism and national unity, democracy and constitutionalism, human dignity, equity, social justice, equality and non discrimination, good governance and integrity and sustainable development.

 

I would like to specifically talk about morality. I agree that there is moral decay in our country, but what is causing that? I expected the President to mention in his speech the role of the Ministry of Religious Affairs and National Guidance in addressing issues of morality, but I did not hear that. I thought this ministry was created to provide guidance on morals and ethics.

 

Madam Speaker, there are a number of sub headings in the President’s Speech, but allow me to pick a few that I feel I should debate on.

 

With regard to patriotism and national unity, in my preamble, I said that I was made to lift the Bible and vow to defend democracy. Alas, whenever we stand here to debate, some people get offended, yet we are just trying to advise on how things should be done and inform them about what the Zambians are saying. With such negative attitudes from our colleagues and so much discrimination, how can we embrace national unity?

 

Madam Speaker, the President also talked about empowering the youth with tricycles. Unfortunately, I have not seen any tricycles in Chienge. The poor distribution of tricycles is a manifestation of one-sided distribution of development in this country. For instance, we heard in this House that some hon. Members got their full allocation of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), others did not get the full amount and others got nothing. Should we consider the speech by the President a tale about what is happening in our country?

 

Madam, the other issue I would like to talk about is that of democracy. The question that comes to mind is: Is there democracy in this country? I ask because when someone points out something that is wrong, then, he/she becomes an enemy of the Ruling Party.

 

Mrs Chonya: Shame!

 

Ms Katuta: Why should it be like that? Instead of embracing the truth, digesting it and finding out why the issue has been raised, it is the opposite. When one does that, he/she will be called names and accused of not working with the Government. It should not be like that. The Zambians should enjoy the democracy which came into existence in 1991. They should be free to express their views.

 

On the issue of human dignity, I wish to say that there is no human dignity at all. For instance, how can the President talk about human dignity when fishermen in Chienge are not being respected? How can the fishing ban be extended when there is no alternative income-generating activity for the poor people? To make matters worse, the marine officers beat up the defenseless people for fishing in the lake. Is a human being dignified in this country?

 

Madam Speaker, I would like to talk about the issue of social justice. I do not think there is social justice in this country. I say so because students from the National Institute for Public Administration (NIPA) have been apprehended when they did not participate in the riot. It was students from Evelyn Hone College of Applied Arts and Commerce who brought down the wall and ran into the NIPA campus during the riot. I found young female NIPA students in the cells at Woodlands Police Station. They did not take part in the riot, but were just caught up in that situation. Is that what we call social justice?

 

Hon. Opposition Member: No!

 

Ms Katuta: Is this what we call human dignity?

 

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

 

Ms Katuta: Similarly, fishermen in Chienge were beaten up by marine officers for catching fish in the lake because they were hungry and had no alternative source of food. The Government is talking about promoting human dignity and social justice, yet fishermen are being beaten up, and the Ministry of General Education is sending students away for failure to pay K15 school fees. The fishing ban has been extended. By 1st April, the fish would have gone into deep waters and it will be difficult for fishermen to catch fish. Fishing is their source of livelihood. So, what are they going to eat?

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Katuta: How are they going to earn an income?

 

It is for this reason that I said whoever the author of the speech is should be fired. I am aware that His Excellency the President has got technocrats at his disposal. So, he should have tried to get what is happening on the ground before giving the speech.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: hear, hear!

 

Ms Katuta: Is this speech addressing the problems of people? No, it is not.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hammer, hammer!

 

Ms Katuta: When we talk about national values, we should ask ourselves what the words “value” and “principle” mean? How are we going to uphold the application of national values and principles when some people are being oppressed? When one tries to speak out, the police descends on him/her. When one tries to do this or that in the constituency, the Government does not pay attention to it so that the hon. Member of that constituency is not re-elected in 2021. This is what is happening on the ground. Meanwhile, people are suffering.

 

Madam, I expected His Excellency the President to apologise for the cholera outbreak and its effects on the nation in his address.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Katuta: He was also supposed to give reasons for the extension of the fishing ban and provide an alternative for the people who depend on fish for their livelihood. He was also supposed to apologise for the failure of the e-Voucher system.

 

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Katuta: Madam, at the moment, there are farmers in Lambwe Chomba and Kalembwe who have not received any farming inputs despite having paid the K450 fee. This is happening because there is no one to speak on their behalf. When we stand up to talk about what is happening in Chienge or other parts of the country, we labeled enemies of the Government.

 

Madam Speaker, the Government should learn to listen when we talk about what is happening on the ground. There is human rights abuse all over the country. His Excellency the President mentioned that human rights are being abused, yet we have the Human Rights Commission. If anything, that institution should be dissolved …

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Katuta: … because it is not helping the people of Chienge and other rural areas. When the Human Rights Commission hears about the plight of the fishermen or that the farmers have not been paid, it is supposed to come in.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Katuta: Instead, it is quiet about such issues, yet it is funded from the taxpayers’ money.

 

Madam, there are many unnecessary taxes. We cannot introduce taxes because we have seen them in other countries because they use credit cards or other modes of payment. We do not have a credit card system in Zambia. So, when the Government introduces heavy taxes, people are unable to save. We do not have credit card facilities.

 

Madam Speaker, it is important for the Government to lead by example in upholding morals. You cannot tell a child to do one thing while you are doing the exact opposite.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Katuta: Honestly speaking, you cannot do that. We are talking about unity, yet when some of our colleagues on the right stand up to debate, it is like they are ready to take us on.

 

Interruptions

 

Ms Katuta: So, how can we collaborate here?

 

 Hon. Government Members: Question!

 

 Ms Katuta: The collaboration has to start from here so that we lead by example. If we do that even the cadres will appreciate that there is nothing wrong with politicians having divergent views. We should not intimidate each other because the Zambians are tired of the intimidation.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Katuta: People cannot express themselves freely. This was not the case in the past. What is the point in having multi-party democracy when the people of Zambian cannot freely express themselves?

 

Madam Speaker, when the citizens say that they do not want something, the Government goes ahead and imposes it on them like was the case with the Health Insurance Bill.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Katuta: When the citizens say that they do not want to be levied for sinking boreholes, the Government goes ahead and imposes it on them. In fact, the cause of the cholera outbreak is the poor service delivery by the local councils. When somebody uses his/her initiative to sink a borehole, the Government levies him/her for the borehole it has not provided.

 

 Hon. Opposition Members: Shame!

 

 Mr Katuta: It is wrong for the Government to take advantage of services it has not provided.

 

 Madam Speaker, I, therefore, hope that the Government is listening because it is its duty to listen to what the people are saying. The people are overwhelmed and over burdened with the taxes being introduced. The only voice they have to speak for them is that of the area hon. Members of Parliament. So, when the people say that something cannot be sustained, the Government should listen to them because they are the major stakeholders. This country does not belong to the Ruling Party alone, but to all the Zambians.

 

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Katuta: Madam, no political party should claim to be above anyone because we are all Zambians. It is for this reason that the speech should not have been brought to this House.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Katuta: Madam, the 500,000 jobs, which were promised, are nowhere to be seen. We have graduates roaming the streets because there are no jobs. The initial figure was 500,000, then, it was reduced to 250,000. Thereafter, the number reduced to 1,000 and now there is no talk of jobs being created, yet we are expected to keep quiet. No.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

 

Ms Katuta: Madam Speaker, the Government has to be consistent with what it says because inconstancy is against the morals that they are talking about.

 

Interruptions

 

Ms Katuta: Madam, the Government should be consistent and it should fulfill promises. It should not take the people of Zambia for granted. It should say this today and say something else the next day. That is wrong.

 

Madam Speaker, with these few remarks, I would like to remind the Government to be consistent in what it says. What it says should come to pass.

 

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

 Mr Mbangweta (Nkeyema): Madam Speaker, I would like to thank you for giving me the opportunity to say a few words on this matter.

 

Madam, I would like to start my discourse by defining values. I will quote the Business Dictionary, which defines values as:

 

“Generally accepted beliefs about what is good, desirable and useful or what is undesirable and unacceptable in a particular state or society. Values have major influence on a person’s behaviour and attitude and serve as broad guidelines in all situations.”

 

Madam Speaker, with that definition, it, then, entails that the people in leadership have a big responsibility of ensuring that what they say is what they do, and not say something else, but do something to the contrary. What has happened with our colleagues from the Patriotic Front (PF) is that they have walked away from the people who put them in power.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mbangweta: If one wants to know what the PF is doing or is capable of doing, he/she should look at what it does and not what it says. To underpin values are principles which explain how the values can succeed or fail. For instance, if someone fights with his wife everyday, he cannot tell his children not to fight when they get married. That will not work.

 

Madam, I will give some examples, of principle that underpin values and relate them to the behaviour of the PF and the President’s Speech. The first principle, which can make impact positively or negatively on a value is integrity. This principle is important, as it demonstrates that someone’s word will be the same today, tomorrow and the other day.

 

So, let us relate this to what the PF has done. Firstly, the hon. Minister of Local Governemnt promised in this House to pay the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) to all hon. Members. However, they sat in their little corners and paid the full amount to all the hon. Members from the PF excluding hon. Members from the Opposition. In terms of integrity, leaders should not behave like that.

 

Mr Ngulube: Question!

 

Mr Mbangweta: Madam, it would have been better if they did not pay themselves anything because their word is their bond. Secondly, there was a court judgment that ruled that hon. Ministers should pay back the money they were paid when they stayed in office illegally.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mbangweta: That is a moral issue, and it has nothing to do with the law because they are the people in leadership.

                           

What was expected of them was to voluntarily pay back the money, but they have refused to do so. That is a matter of integrity. So, on that score, can we say the people in leadership are promoting integrity?

 

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

 

Mr Mbangweta: Madam Speaker, the second principle is accountability. Accountability means that leaders should be willing to listen and account for their deeds because whatever they do is done on behalf of the people they lead; the people who pay them to lead them. What we have seen is a strange phenomenon that is developing in this country, whereby the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC), for instance, is failing to carry out its mandate. The Executive is now telling citizens that if they report a case of corruption, they should provide evidence. This is not covered by the law. The law says that the ACC will investigate on its own accord or when a case is reported. The commission is also obliged to protect whistleblowers. However, we are now seeing the opposite. This should not be the case and should not be allowed to continue.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mbangweta: Madam Speaker, an example of a lack of accountability is the way the Government is handling the money earned from the sale of Mukula, as stated in your Committee’s report. We were told that this money is taken to Kawambwa Tea Company instead of Account 99 where it is supposed to be put. What sort of arrangement is that? After five years, how will we know where the money has been taken and how much was collected? In any case, we have rules and regulations that govern the way this money should be moved and accounted for. That is not accountability. This means that wrongdoers are now being celebrated and people who are doing a good job are the ones who are being vilified.

 

Madam Speaker, let me now talk about competence. Competence is supposed to be manifested in leadership, especially in government. So, when a decision or policy is made, citizens are supposed to be informed. That is what the citizenry expects of the Government. However, what we have seen in this Government are policy inconsistencies and changes. The latest change was the banning of squatting in universities. We should not do that. The Government should reason. It should look through issues. In this regard, I would like to give the hon. Minister of Finance a pat on the back for acquitting herself very well yesterday. That is the level of competence we expect.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mbangweta: Madam Speaker, there is also the principle of honesty. The people in leadership should demonstrate honesty. That way, the people below them will believe in the importance of this principle. Where I come from, stealing is frowned upon. However, there are some societies where stealing is glorified. So, if you go to my place …

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Withdraw the word “stealing”.

 

Mr Mbangweta: I am sorry, Madam Speaker. I will replace it with “lacking respect for other people’s property”. Where I come from, one cannot just do what he/she wants with another person’s property. That is a value which we hold dear. However, there are some societies where picking other people’s property is accepted. So, that sort of behaviour, is glorified.

 

Mr Chaatila: Ubomba mwibala!

 

Mr Mbangweta: That is why you cannot say these are your values and do things to the contrary. The people in leadership should be consistent. That is all they need to do in order for the national values to be appreciated. What the President’s Speech is saying in terms of national values is not what is being practiced. We all know that if we practice what is in the speech, we shall make progress. The reason we are having all these irregularities that are cited in the Auditor-General’s Report is failure to adhere to principles. However, who is stopping the Executive from punishing the people who do wrong things? We do not hear of high profile cases being investigated and people being punished, yet the ACC has been in existence for some time now. That is where we have a problem.

 

Madam Speaker, let me come to the specific issues in the document that I have before me, and then I will be done. On page 14 of the President’s Address on the Progress Made in the Application of National Values and Principles, delivered to the Second Session of the Twelfth National Assembly, on Friday, 16th March, 2018, the President said:

 

“The upholding of human dignity remains an ethical, legal, social and political obligation of this Government. Every citizen of our country deserves to be respected and treated fairly regardless of race, gender, ethnic background, religious beliefs or social status.”

 

Madam Speaker, let me relate this to what happened to Mr Hakainde Hichilema when he was arrested.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Mbangweta: What happened to the street vendors? The Government had allowed them to trade from the street but, one day, the Government kicked them out without offering them alternative places to trade from. Who sends people to radio stations to beat up other people up? It is the Patriotic Front (PF) Government. Even if the Government writes and talks about national values, nothing will change.

 

Madam Speaker, let me read my last quote. On page 17 of his address, the President said:

 

“In pursuit of the principle of equality, the Government is committed to reducing development inequalities by implementing programmes in a manner that recognises the needs of all citizens. These efforts are also, by extension, contributing to non-discrimination and the promotion of social justice for our people.

 

“Equal treatment of Zambians is fundamental. We are one people and should enjoy equal access to the resources of this country regardless of geographical location, creed, tribe or gender.”

 

Madam Speaker, the Government is not practicing this. I have continuously told the PF Government to stop discriminating against some citizens. In the last two months, it has failed, for no reason, to renew contracts for two doctors from a particular ethnic group or region. Doctors from certain regions are being retained, but they do not want doctors from certain regions to be in employment. The Government should not think that we are not seeing this, or that we shall forget about it. We will not do that. The Government is discrimination. That should not be acceptable. It is not easy to become a doctor in medicine or engineering. This country needs such people in office to contribute to development, and not on the street. However, they have been discriminated against because they belong to a tribe which is considered not to be part of this country. That is not acceptable, and it will not be forgotten. Time will come when the people in the Government will receive their punishment for what they are doing.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mbangweta: Madam Speaker, I have this document, which was distributed to all hon. Members yesterday. It is a pity the hon. Minister for Western Province is not here because what is in this document is not good. The document indicates the feeder roads that were worked on in 2016 and 2017. Discrimination and inequity is demonstrated in this document which is no different from the one on hammer mills which was also distributed. The document says that nineteen roads in the Eastern Province have been worked on but, in the Western Province, only three-and-a half roads have been worked on.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mbangweta: All the road projects which were started in the Eastern Province have been completed. What is the meaning of that? We have bemoaned the state of the Lusaka/Mongu Road which passes through Nkeyema.

 

Mr M. Zulu: On a point of order, Madam.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah! Iwe!

 

Mr Mbangweta: The road ...

 

Mr M. Zulu: On a point of order, Madam.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

 

Mr M. Zulu: Madam Speaker, thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to rise on a point of order. The gentleman on the Floor, ...

 

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

 

Mr M. Zulu: The hon. Member of Parliament for Nkeyema has stated that all the road projects in the Eastern Province have been completed. That is an untruth because I am Minister for the Eastern Province, and there are many projects that are pending and some have stalled. Is he, therefore, in order to allege discrimination on the part of the Government based on untruths? Also, is he in order to allege discrimination on the part of the Patriotic Front (PF) Government in contracts that are going on at administrative level?

 

I need your serious ruling, Madam.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Well, the good thing is that he, indeed, has a document in his hand.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: So, I will ask the hon. Member for Nkeyema to read out the number of road projects in the Eastern Province and compare with those in the Western Province, ...

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: ... to indicate whether, indeed, all the roads projects have been completed in the Eastern Province. Please, go ahead and read out.

 

Mr Mbangweta: Madam Speaker, I am most obliged. I appreciate your counsel. What I am saying is that the discrimination that used to be practiced in the past should stop.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

 

Mr Mbangweta: Madam Speaker, let me read out the names of the roads that have been completed, and they are as follows:

 

District                                                            Road                                        Distance (km)

 

Chipata                                                            Kapatamoyo                                        6.4

 

Chipata                                                            Zingale                                     4.7

 

Vubwi                                                              Kanjala and Dilika                                20

 

Chief Nzamane in Kasenengwa                         T4                                                         5

                                

         Kasenengwa                                                     Chiparamba Giveway                           15

 

Chipata                                                            Msoro via Mushawa                             19

 

Vubwi                                                              Zozwe/Manota                                     19

 

Vubwi                                                              Chingwe/Pembamoyo               18

 

Vubwi                                                              Chikoka/Pande Road                           15.5

 

Nyimba                                                            Fumba/Eneya                                         8

 

Nyimba                                                            Munyazi/Kamono                                 14

 

Chipata                                                            Chadiza/Mutowe Primary School           3.5

 

Lundazi                                                            Lundazi/Kazembe                                 25

 

Chipata                                                            Mbambo Village/Chikengi Turnoff         8.5

 

Chadiza                                                            Offroad Chadiza/Chakaye Clinic           5

 

Petauke                                                            Anusa T4                                             6

 

Interruptions

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order! Order!

 

You cannot proceed that way.

 

Mr Mbangweta: Madam Speaker, the last one is 22km Nyantumba Road, which has also been completed. The total distance of roads that have been worked on is 165.8km.

 

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mbangweta: Madam Speaker, let me now talk about the roads in the Western Province.

 

Mr Lubinda: Nalolo!

 

Mr Mbangweta: Madam Speaker, I said that, ...

 

Mr Ngulube: Mongu/Kalabo Road is complete.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

 

Just shut up. That was worked on by the Movement for Multi-Party Democracy (MMD).

 

Hon. Government Members interjected.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, on my right!

 

Hon. Member for Nkeyema Parliamentary Constituency, you may continue.

 

Mr Mbangweta: Madam Speaker, the 32.10km Nalolo Road Project is in progress; the Matebele/Shang’ombo Road is complete; the 20km Shang’ombo/Sipuma is complete; the 2.5km M10 Muoyo Road is complete; and the 3km road leading to Nalolo Palace and to the new health post is complete.

 

Interruptions

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Member for Nkeyema, you have assisted the Chair to resolve the point of order. The ruling is that there is no discrimination.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: You have clearly read out the road projects that have been completed in the Western Province. So, the point of order is sustained, and the hon. Member for Nkeyema Parliamentary Constituency will continue his debate bearing that in mind.

 

Mr Mbangweta: Madam Speaker, I appreciate the counsel. The Lusaka/Mongu Road is an economic road. So, it should be worked on. It covers, ...

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

(Debate adjourned)

 

______

 

The House adjourned at 1955 hours until 0900 hours on Friday, 23rd March, 2018.