Thursday, 2nd November, 2017

Thursday, 2^nd November, 2017

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

_______

QUESTION FOR ORAL ANSWER

MONEY GOVERNMENT OWES THE UNIVERSITY OF ZAMBIA STUDENTS

76. Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central) asked the Minister of Higher Education:

how much money, in meal and project allowances, the Government owed the University of Zambia students who were on the Government Bursary Scheme;

what had caused the delay in paying the allowances;

when the outstanding allowances would be paid; and

what measures the Government was taking to avert a possible student riot due to the non-payment of the allowances, when the Institution re-opens on 6^th November, 2017.

The Minister of Higher Education (Prof. Luo): Mr Speaker, at the beginning of 2016/2017 Academic Year, all the students who had registered with the University of Zambia (UNZA) and were captured in the payment system were paid a full meal and project allowance. However, nine students delayed in registering and as a result, the payment system could not capture their names. These students only registered after 15^th August, 2017, prior to writing the end of year examinations. At that time, the payment system had closed as we are using modern technology. Therefore, the Government only owes nine students a total of K19,642.50, in respect of meal allowances.

Mr Speaker, the Government does not owe students any money for project allowances because all students who were presented to the Ministry of Higher Education for the payment of project allowances have been paid. It should be noted that names for the payment of project allowances are generated by UNZA when the students are about to start their projects and not the Minister of Higher Education.

Mr Speaker, the delay in paying the allowances was caused by the late registration by the nine students. The nine students will be paid as soon as the institution opens and the students’ registration for 2017/2018 Academic Year has been completed.

Mr Speaker, the ministry has set aside funds to pay these nine students as soon as the institution opens. Therefore, rioting by nine students is not anticipated. Further, the ministry and UNZA have been holding meetings to ensure that there is symmetry of information between the two parties, UNZA and the Ministry of Higher Education.

Mr Speaker, let me also take advantage of this question to remind the students and the nation at large that a university is not a place for rioting. A university is a place for intellectuals and I expect dialogue between the students and myself. I have an open door policy to all the students with no exception to talk to me, if there is any issue that my staff is failing to resolve. I want to warn all the students, as we open the next academic year, that any student found rioting will be expelled with immediate effect.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Prof. Luo: Mr Speaker, those who are paying students to riot as a way of making this country ungovernable will bear the brunt because they will have to look after those students as my Government is not prepared to harness hooliganism. The Government of the Patriotic Front (PF) is very serious in creating a learning environment at UNZA and much more, in increasing the number of intellectuals in this country so that they can come and take over from us.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, let me thank the hon. Minister for her response, except for the fact that it appears her adrenaline started going up by a very simple question.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, it is very fair that the minister is calling for interaction with the students. Nine students definitely, would never succeed to destabilise the learning institution. The record that I have, which I would like the hon. Minister to reconcile, since she is ready to dialogue with these students is that since July, in excess of 7,700 students have not received their project allowances. I also have a detail which is due for verification that since July, accommodation and meal allowances have not been paid to 1,000 students. Is the minister able to dialogue with these 7,700 students tomorrow at her office so that they can reconcile the differences because nine students against 8,000 students is such a huge disparity?

Prof. Luo: Mr Speaker, as far as I know, the students are on leave. We are expecting them to come back on campus in the next few weeks and a month. The 7,000 students the hon. Member of Parliament for Mazabuka Central is referring to are not available for dialogue.

Sir, the records in relation to what happens at the University of Zambia are in our custody. Therefore, it is very surprising that the records that should be in my ministry are now finding themselves in Mazabuka.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Prof. Luo: I will be quite happy for the hon. Member of Parliament for Mazabuka Central, who has taken over as Minister of Higher Education…

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Hon. Minister, take a seat.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Hon. Minister, there is no need for sarcasm.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: You know very well that the hon. Member is not a Minister of Government.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: It is not possible in the circumstances.

Mr Mushanga: It is not possible.

Mr Speaker: In the circumstances.

Hon. Minister, please withdraw that assertion that somebody else has taken over your ministry.

Prof. Luo: Mr Speaker, I withdraw that assertion. However, the records are kept by our ministry and what I have shared in this august House is the true position of the Ministry of Higher Education. Any other available information should be availed to me and the University of Zambia will verify whether those people mentioned are, in fact, students.

Sir, let me take advantage of this question to state that there are a lot of people who go around parading themselves as university students. This morning, I read about fifty-five students who are claiming to be students of the Copperbelt University. When I checked the records with the Copperbelt University, these students are not registered with the Copperbelt University, yet there is a story that they were rioting because they have not been given project and meal allowances, when, in fact, we have just finished registering the students. Therefore, I think it is very important for us as leaders, to cross reference with each other when information comes to us, instead of creating information that is not correct.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Minister for the answer that she just gave. I am wondering and I am sure you are wondering as well how, the hon. Minister can state that these students are on sabbatical or using her own words, on leave and, therefore, will not be available for dialogue with her, when these students actually came here and not to Mazabuka which she is referring to. I will serve that sarcasm for another day.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: It is totally imaginable that she can be answering her own question. The question was simple, even if the students are in Kaputa, Zambezi or Chavuma, if they would like to confer with her over this anomaly; we seem to be at cross references here, nine students against 7,700. Now, the hon. Minister is saying she is not ready to see the students because they cannot come, if they manage to come, can the hon. Minister assure me and the House that the students will not be victims of victimisation as it has always been that when students come to fight for their rights, they end up receiving suspension or expulsion letters. It is squarely in her job to ensure that these allowances are paid. It is squarely in my job to check the Government. I am doing my job right now.

Prof. Luo: Mr Speaker, if remember exactly what the hon. Member of Parliament for Mazabuka Central said, he asked if I am able to see the 7,000 students tomorrow. Therefore, if he is able to bring the 7,000 students, yes, I will see them. However, I am telling him that they are not on campus at the moment that is why I said it is not possible because some of them are very far. If he is able to bring the 7,000 students tomorrow at 8 o’clock as I report for duty, I will see them.

Hon. Government members: Hear, hear!

Prof. Luo: Mr Speaker, on the fact that students are being expelled for expressing their rights. Many other universities have evolved after that. The University of Zambia was created in 1966. What was happening in 1966, of rioting cannot happen over fifty years down the line because…

Mr Michelo: Why not?

Prof. Luo: …there are many ways in which to resolve problems. In fact, in 1966, we had a different way of governance. Now, we have a democratic way of governance where people express their views in dialogue. They do not express their views through riots. I would like the University of Zambia, to be in tandem with the international standards where, when there is an issue, we sit and dialogue. That is what I am calling for at the University of Zambia.

Mr Speaker, I will not allow riots at the University of Zambia, especially organised riots. I know what I am talking about because some people even know that I have caught them red-handed organising students.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwila (Chimwemwe): Mr Speaker, meal, book and project allowances are only paid to students at the University of Zambia and the Copperbelt University. I would like to find out whether in the 2018 Budget of the ministry they have included students from Mukuba University in Kitwe, which is in Chimwemwe Constituency, Mulungushi and Kapasa Makasa universities.

Prof. Luo: Mr Speaker, in fact, students at Kapasa Makasa University has always received allowances because they are overseen by the Copperbelt University. The members of staff in the Ministry of Higher Education who have been charged to be part of the Loans Board are at the moment working on modalities of how we shall be extending payments to other universities.

Mr Speaker, it is important for my colleagues to know that as we rollout the Loans Scheme, one, we will have to track the students not only in terms of receiving their meal and projects allowances, but in terms of performance. If a student is not performing, we will withdraw the loan because it is pointless to start paying for people who will not complete their studies. Therefore, these modalities are being put in place and it is my sincere hope that come 1^st January, 2018, we will extend the loan schemes to students in other institutions. I must hasten to state that since we have not finished our work with the private institutions with the Higher Education Authority, we may not be able to extend the Loan Scheme to private institutions yet because there is an exercise that we are doing with private institutions. It is very possible that all public institutions will benefit from the loan scheme.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze): Mr Speaker, as I rise to ask the hon. Minister, I would like to take judicial notice that the University of Zambia is within Munali Constituency where the hon. Minister of Higher Education is a Member of Parliament. I will also try to state that when voters in a particular constituency have problems, they have to dialogue with the hon. Member of Parliament.

Mr Speaker, having taken note of that, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister how she expects to have normal dialogue with students when she made a decision to ban student unionism at universities and other higher learning institutions. There is no student representation in these institutions.

Mr Speaker: Let me clarify that the hon. Minister is responding as a representative of the Government and this is in reference to the hon. Member’s preface. As far as my office is concerned, she is responding as Minister of Higher Education.

Prof. Luo: Mr Speaker, I said that I suspended the unions and in the English Dictionary, the words suspend and ban, are defined differently. The students cannot only speak through their representatives, but they can engage me. I can go to the University of Zambia (UNZA) or Copperbelt University (CBU) and they can assemble in a hall so that each of them expresses their issues.

Sir, whenever the representatives come to my office, they only speak about the Bursary Committee (BC) Scheme. However, not all the students at the university are on the BC Scheme. Some are paid allowances by the Government, while others are supported by their families, but they face the same challenges. Therefore, the unions should not only speak about the BC Scheme, but also other issues in the universities. The students at the moment require a proper learning environment. We are working on lecture theatres, libraries, sanitation and access to clean water and I expect the unions to talk to me about these issues. However, I have had to leave my office to get information about the universities and all the corrective measures that I am implementing were not brought to my attention by the unions.

Mr Speaker, I do not know what the hon. Member of Parliament is talking about, but I believe the students have the right to speak to the Minister and do not have to speak through students’ unions. However, after we are done with the consultations on the type of leadership we shall have in our institutions of learning, I will present a ministerial statement to this House and will also announce this information through the press. Unions are not the only vehicle that students should use for dialogue. There are many other ways of providing leadership in institutions of higher learning.

Sir, I want to instill discipline and to create a good learning environment in these institutions so that we can churn out the students who get low marks. In some instances, when we recruit 6,000 students, only 2,000 make it to second year. This is because some students forget the reason they are at the university yet their parents pay for them at very high costs. Therefore, as Minister of Higher Education, I will ensure that we have a different environment in all the universities so that they can quickly claim their past positions.

Mr Speaker, previously, the UNZA ranked number three in Africa, but it is currently at number fifty-six. This is shameful and it is as a result of the unrest at the university. Therefore, hon. Members of Parliament should not politicise the universities and institutions of higher learning because even their children will benefit from these institutions when they are run properly. The reason they send their children abroad is because they have no confidence in these institutions. However, those asking questions right now do not even have children at those universities.

I thank you, Sir.

Interruptions

Mr Chibanda (Mufulira): Mr Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Minister for the elaborate answer that she has given to the House and nation. However, what measures has the ministry taken about the transition from the bursaries to the students’ loans that will be actualised in January owing to the Budget?

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, I am getting concerned because the question before the House is very specific. It is about payment of allowances. You have moved away from the subject and now asking about loans. There is a difference between loans and allowances and the question is very specific. By the way, we have a lot of work to do. That is why we have only listed one question at the manifestation of the amount of work that has to be done. I will close this session after the hon. Members for Katombola, Mitete, Choma Central, Roan, Kapiri Mposhi and Serenje ask their questions. However, I will not ask the hon. Minister to respond to irrelevant questions and will just skip them.

Mr Livune (Katombola): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister seems to be coming out more of a disciplinarian than a problem solver. As an advocate of peace and order, I would like to find out from her why she has allowed the Patriotic Front (PF) Branch she is sponsoring to cause confusion at UNZA?

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member for Mitete.

Laughter

Mr Ngulube: Ema irrelevant aya!

Mr Mutelo (Mitete): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister stated that they will compare the records of students that she has and that of the hon. Member of Parliament for Mazabuka Central. In an event that Hon. Nkombo’s records are genuine, will she come back to this House and clarify this to the nation? We represent the Zambians whether or not we have children at the universities and when we have information …

Mr Speaker: Hon. Minister of Higher Education.

Laughter

Prof. Luo: Mr Speaker, there will be no need for me to come back to the House as I surely know that the records I have are correct.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mweetwa (Choma Central): Mr Speaker, I would like to declare interest as the Former President of the University of Zambia Student Union (UNZASU) and the hon. Minister of Higher Education has on more than three occasions accused me of organising students at the UNZA. However, she said that the students who will be engaged in riotous behaviour will be expelled.

Mr Speaker, in the Constitution, there is a provision for freedom of expression, and one of the means of that expression is through peaceful demonstrations. Do you still insist that those students who will be involved in riotous behaviour, will simply be enjoying their freedom of expression will be expelled? I say so because that is the impression that a by stander would get.

Prof. Luo: Mr Speaker, I think that the hon. Member of Parliament will go to the English Dictionary and find that there is a difference between a peaceful demonstration and a riot. So, ...

Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: No points of order when the hon. Minister is responding.

Prof. Luo: ... it goes without saying that if people are just peacefully expressing themselves, then that is not rioting. When I listen to this kind of discussion and questions, I wonder if people realise that some people have saved money all their lives to buy a car, which students break when they go to the streets to protest. The students for no reason whatsoever break cars whose owners have absolutely nothing to do with the issue at hand. Are you aware that every time the students destroy buildings at UNZA, the Government has to repair them at a high cost when that money should be going to the running of institutions? For me, there are questions that are worth asking, but let us not encourage the students across the country to continue rioting. In fact, we should be leaders and parents and start counseling our children to behave as university students and not as hooligans.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Speaker, in her response, the hon. Minister said that some of the people speaking here do not have children at these institutions of learning. Is the Government aware that most of the Zambian parents do not take their children to the University of Zambia (UNZA) and the Copperbelt University (CBU) because a child who enrolls to pursue a programme for four years, end up being in school for seven years because of the riots which result into indefinite closures. The riots are a result of the Government’s failure to pay bursaries allowances. What practical measure is the Government taking to end these riots and making sure that when the allowances are due students receive them. When the President is travelling, the Government has money. Why is it, therefore, failing to give students the money?

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Roan Parliamentary Constituency, we are not dealing with the President’s travel.

Prof. Luo: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member asked a very important question, but ended up saying something that is totally unconnected and irrelevant. However, I will answer his question.

Sir, because of the very issues he is raising, let me say that when you come to the Ministry of Higher Education today, you will see that the allowances have been paid on time. I would like to invite you to come and see it that is done. As I was saying, people just go to the streets and start saying they have not been paid allowances. It is this misinformation that the Government is not doing what is correct which goes to the public. During the 2016/2017 academic year, no student in any institution will tell you that they were not paid in good time.

Mr Speaker, let me also take advantage of this question to inform this august House that there is a difference between paying allowances and paying project allowances. Project Allowance, is not money for the students’ pockets, but money which is paid when students have a project and they are about to carry out that project. Therefore, the ministry will not pay students’ project allowances until that stream of students is ready to go for projects. However, students want to get all this money. They have told me in earnest that when they get this money, they also help their families. This is why they riot over project allowances. They should not do that. I want to state that the Government will not pay Project Allowances together with BC allowances because this money is meant for projects.

Sir, what used to happen in the past is that whenever the students were paid their project allowances before the date for projects, they would spend it on other things and then fail to carry out the project when it was due. Now, we are making a clear distinction between accommodation and meal allowance and project allowance. Accommodation and meal allowances will be, therefore, paid in good time while project allowance will be paid when it is time for the students to undertake the project. I want to assure the hon. Members of Parliament that we are going to do our work to the best of our ability. If I encounter any problem, I will come and tell you that I did not do this or that because I had this problem.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kakubo (Kapiri Mposhi): Mr Speaker, I am glad that the University of Zambia (UNZA) students have been given a promissory note regarding the payment of their allowances. My researched view is that these allowances should affect all universities across the country. One university that does not have the same conditions as UNZA sits in my constituency, and that is Mulungushi University. As the hon. Minister comes to Kapiri Mposhi in a week or two, I would like her to give an equivocal position to the students at that university as well and assure them of the same privileges as their fellow students at UNZA.

Prof. Luo: Mr Speaker, ...

Mr Speaker: Hon. Minister, there is no question there.

Mr Kabanda (Serenje): Mr Speaker, I want to find out the criteria used to pay allowances to students. I ask this because there are some students who have the means and others who do not have. The people of Serenje Parliamentary Constituency would want to know whether this allowance is paid proportionately with them and those living in Woodlands and Chalala.

Prof. Luo: Mr Speaker, this is one of the issues that the ministry is addressing. Indeed, when we had students in the public gallery, I took an interest to meet with them and they drove to my office in BMWs and Mercedes Benz cars. They were about fifty of them and they sat in my office and told me how they were suffering and that they were vulnerable. As they were leaving my office, I took time to go to the window and I saw them drive away in Mercedes Benz. As such, we are going to institute a mechanism of knowing who is vulnerable and who is not. Next week, my teams will be going out to different provinces, and there will be announcements on radio stations that the students who need bursaries will be required to go to the provincial centres and apply from there. This is because we want to ensure that all provinces have a stake in the allowances. We have just constituted the teams, which will be departing next week. There will be announcements on various radio stations, including community radio stations. That way, people will know on which days the teams will be sitting at the provincial centres. I want to take advantage of this and ask the hon. Provincial Ministers to ensure that they prepare room where my staff will be sitting as they receive applications from the students.

Furthermore, we are changing the manner in which applications will be done. Unlike advertising in the Zambia Daily Mail, every time for students to come and apply, the application forms will be sent to the schools so that as the students are finishing writing their O Level examinations, they will also be putting in applications to UNZA. As we give them scholarships, we will be looking at where the students are coming from. There will be a clear distinction between a child coming out of Lusaka and one coming out of Shang’ombo.

I thank you, Sir.

____

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON in the

Chair]

VOTE 13 – (Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs – K149,927,570).

(Consideration resumed)

Dr Malama (Kanchibiya): Mr Chairperson, the institution that chiefs belong to is extremely important for it is expected to foster peace, unity and national development. In countries where these institutions peddle in less developmental issues, the levels of poverty are quite high.

In this country, 54.4 per cent of the population is living below the poverty datum line. For the sake of easterners, allow me to break this down. Sir, 76.6 per cent of the population is in rural areas while the rest is in urban areas. Mostly, chiefs superintend over extremely poor people, who live on US$2 per day. Again, for the sake of easterners, US$2 is about K19.

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Dr Malama: The ones questioning me should know that there are people in their constituencies living in abject poverty...

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Malama: ...or on US$1 and ¢25.

Mr Mwale: In Luapula?

Laughter

Dr Malama: Mr Chairperson, we cannot allow this situation to continue. As we support this budget, we want the chiefs to be chief executive officers (CEOs) of the jurisdictions that they look after so that they can help us get out of poverty. If they want to join partisan politics, it is up to them. However, we know what happens with partisanship.

Right now, we have a situation where people are crossing over into our country to seek refuge. These people are running away from places where partisan chiefs are siding with politicians for political power, which should not be the case. Over 6,000 refugees have crossed over into Zambia to seek asylum. Others have been killed while others have been maimed. We cannot allow such a situation in this country. Let us learn from our neighbours.

Mr Chairperson, Zambia has had very wise chiefs to learn from. These chiefs got this wisdom from their parents. Kanchibiya Constituency has one wise man for a chief. There are five of them, but allow me to talk about Chief Luchembe. Chief Luchembe has welcomed other tribes, through Government programmes, to settle in Kanchibiya to. His Excellency the President, at one of the fora, appreciated Chief Luchembe. This chief has appointed Tonga- speaking people from the Southern Province and Western Province as headmen in Kanchibiya.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Malama: This is one good lesson that we should follow.

Mr Chairperson, I grew up on the Copperbelt and I can assure you that the issue of tribe was totally irrelevant to us. We learnt to co-exist and this should be the case now. Therefore, I wish to call on the people in this establishment to let Zambians live as one. One Zambia, One Nation.

Mr Chairperson, as we support this budget we ask our chiefs to motivate the people for development. We ask that they apply intelligence and they should be supportive of women, men and children to embark on developmental programmes. They should be knowledgeable on what can take the people out of poverty, and extreme poverty. We ask them to be flexible and accept that not only people from their tribes exist in this country, but that there are other tribes and nationals as well. After all, we all were once immigrants.

I mentioned earlier that there are many chiefs that they can learn from. There was once a great and wise king that trod this land. His name was Mulambwa, the tenth Litunga.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chali: Ema history aya!

Dr Malama: Mulambwa was known as a law giver. He united people. Under his rule, he accepted people who came from wiko. I do not know whether or not southerners know what wiko means.

Mr Nkombo: Awe!

Dr Malama: Mr Chairperson, wiko means west in Lozi. Just in case I refer to them, north is mutulo, east is upa and south is mboela. The Mbundas and the Nkoyas came from wiko. He received them and they co-existed...

Mr Chali: Hammer!

Dr Malama: ...and lived as one. However, it was not so when his children took over.

_____________

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON in the

Chair]

VOTE 13 – (Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs – K149,927,570).

(Consideration resumed)

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Dr Malama: The ones questioning me should know that there are people in their constituencies living in abject poverty...

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Malama: ...or on US$1 and ¢25.

Mr Mwale: In Luapula?

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Malama: This is one good lesson that we should follow.

I mentioned earlier that there are many chiefs that they can learn from. There was once a great and wise king that trod this land. His name was Mulambwa, the tenth Litunga.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chali: Ema history aya!

Dr Malama: Mulambwa was known as a law giver. He united people. Under his rule, he accepted people who came from wiko. I do not know whether or not southerners know what wiko means.

Mr Nkombo: Awe!

Mr Chali: Hammer!

Dr Malama: ...and lived as one. However, it was not so when his children took over.

Sir, when his children took over, that is, Mubukwanu and Sulumelume, they started to fight with each other.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Malama: Makololokiba.

Dr Malama: Mr Chairperson, makololokiba means ‘that is how we witnessed the coming of the Kololos.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Malama: Sir, in general, war broke out in fear of Shaka Zulu. They took advantage of the situation although it did not last. That was the consequence of disunity. Even scriptures encourage unity among people.

Mr Chairperson, in appreciating the hon. Minister for the policy statement, I would like to appeal that this institution, which is supported by the hard-earned Zambian taxpayer money, should go towards the development of the affairs of our chiefdoms. It is important for them to be honest in their dealings. They should not be selling land indiscriminately, especially the mukula tree. We should not allow that.

Sir, we look forward for an occasion when we will look at each other as a people. Therefore, let us do the right thing going forward. Let us engage ourselves with the activities, which will make our people and our country to rise from its knees and occupy the first slot.

Sir, my cousin, Hon. Prof. Luo …

Laughter

Prof. Luo: You are not my cousin.

Dr Malama: She says that she is not my cousin, but my sister. She has accepted your protest. Let me say my sister …

Laughter

Dr Malama: That is okay. She has agreed.

Dr Malama: Mr Chairperson, Hon. Prof. Luo mentioned that the university had occupied a legendary position on the African Continent, but today, it has backslidden. We should not allow that to happen because there are many frontiers, where Zambia can be competing better. Therefore, the chiefs should help to contribute to the issue. What are we asking from the chiefs is to help us fight poverty. They should also help us attend to the hunger situation in the country. If you look at the poverty level index, Zambia is not occupying a good position. Therefore, the chiefs should help us beat that level and also help us improve the food security in as far as the utilisation of our land is concerned. It is important to ensure that we also apply consecutive farming.

Sir, the other areas, which the chiefs could help with or champion are the issues of health. They should ensure that the health facilities are in close proximity with the people. The other day, I mentioned that my constituency is almost as big as Israel. It is also forty times bigger than Seychelles and twenty-six times larger than Singapore, but it is not densely populated. The challenge, therefore, is how they can help each other when they are far apart. This is where village regrouping is important.

Mr Chairperson, we should look to countries like Botswana. The Government in that country provides services because the villages have been rearranged. They are not far from each other, but close to each other. When the villages are reorganised, it becomes easier for the Government to provide health care service.

Sir, let me now talk about education and schools in particular. In most cases, people are live far from, where the schools are. Therefore, chiefs can encourage their subjects to live close to one another. If people want to farm, they can let their children stay in communal places, where they can access education.

Mr Chairperson, the chiefs can also help us resolve the gender disparities.

Sir, your watch is running very fast.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Just conclude if you have exhausted your points, hon. Member. You may continue.

Dr Malama: Sir, the other issue, which I want to talk about, is youth unemployment. I have decided to skip issues of water and electricity, which can be achieved if there is village regrouping. Therefore, I would like to appeal to the chiefs to provide leadership in this regard.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Katuta (Chienge): Mr Chairperson, first of all, I would like to thank the hon. Minister of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs for the policy statement.

Sir, this ministry is important for all Zambians because all of us originate from the chiefdoms. Although we live in urban areas, no one can say that they come from towns. It is because of the chiefs that we are able to trace our routes, traditions, customs and heritage.

Mr Chairperson, I would expect the Government to allocate more money to this ministry. At the moment, the chiefs are losing their dignity and as a result of that, we see them come to town. When they come to town, they would not want to go back to their palaces. Sometimes, they go to State House without being invited because of the circumstances beyond their control. If the chiefs were well looked after, we would not be witnessing this embarrassing state of affairs that some chiefs come all the way from the chiefdoms and were denied entry to State House.

Mr Chairperson, I would also like to propose for the increment of the budget for this ministry in the next National Budget. The chiefs easily swerve to implement or work with the Government of the day if anyone promises or gives them what they seem to be lacking. For the chiefs to be non-partisan, neutral and loyal to the Government of the day, they need to be taken care of and treated like civil servants because that would help them concentrate on their traditional leadership.

Sir, some chiefs receive gifts when others are not being taken care of. Some chiefs also receive better vehicles and gifts, when their counterparts do not. This is what is bringing division. I would like to appeal to the chiefs to retain their dignity. As at now, things are not like they used to be in the past.

Sir, when I was young, I would go to my village. If we saw a chief from afar, we would kneel down. It did not matter, where we were or what we were wearing. It did not matter whether one was in a suit or not. Now, things have changed because chiefs and their subjects are fighting for the same business opportunities. If there is a small business opportunity, which comes up, the chief would also want to take it. This is happening because the chiefs are not well looked after.

Mr Chairperson, looking at the budget, I noted that the construction of chiefs’ palaces only represents 4 per cent of the total allocation for this Vote, which is very little. Most of the chiefs are living in houses that are a health hazard. One day, a chief’s palace will collapse, not because of heavy rains, but because these structures are nothing to talk about. In my constituency, there is Chief Mununga, Chief Puta and Chieftainess Lambwe Chomba. Their palaces are an eyesore. They have cracks and some do not have electricity and so on and so forth. I do not even know what to say about these palaces.

Mr Chairperson, how do we expect the chiefs to take care of the customs and traditions when we are here enjoying ourselves? How do we even call them our chiefs when we neglect them? Chiefs also deserve good and modern palaces. Therefore, it is my plea that the Patriotic Front (PF) Government looks into this matter seriously so that we help the chiefs all over the country. Chiefs should not come and stay in Lusaka for four or five months just because they do have the necessities in the villages.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to suggest that the Government should come up with some projects which can help the chiefs. When they come to Lusaka for meetings, they can attend workshops where they can be trained in entrepreneurship skills. This would help them, instead of them coming here when they have nothing and knock at the doors of hon. Members, which is shameful.

Sir, in other countries, such as Nigeria, you can tell that one is a chief by the palace they live in or the people who drive them. They do not even have the time to indulge in politics. The reason our chiefs indulge in politics is because they are lacking many things. Therefore, I urge the Government to look into this matter. In the near future, the hon. Minister of Finance and technocrats at his ministry should consider increasing funding to the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to also talk about traditional ceremonies. The Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs is meant for such events. We want to see the hon. Minister of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs attending these ceremonies. His ministry is understands the challenges that chiefs are facing or their needs. If a provincial Permanent Secretary (PS) is sent to represent the Government, does he/she even understand what the chiefs of a given area are in need of? I do not think so. That is why this ministry is there. We need to change and allocate more funds to this ministry so that it attends all the traditional ceremonies.

Sir, I have heard His Excellency, the President of Zambia, say that he would not want to attend certain traditional ceremonies because they have been politicised. This is happening because the people who are supposed to attend these ceremonies shun them. We need to see officials such as the PS in the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs attending these ceremonies and not the provincial PS or provincial hon. Minister. I hope the Government is listening to this concern and will take care of it.

Sir, when the traditional ceremonies are held, the Government must ensure that there are no politics where these ceremonies are taking place. These ceremonies are meant for our chiefs. This is how we remember how our ancestors came to settle wherever they settled.

Mr Chairperson, with these few words, I thank you and support the budget.

Ms Mwashingwele (Katuba): Mr Chairperson, thank you for giving me this opportunity to give my thoughts on the budget for the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs. I would firstly want to say that I support the budget with the following observations.

Mr Chairperson, the first observation that I would want to bring to the attention of the hon. Minister of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs is the issue of boundary disputes between chiefdoms. This has really been a thorn in the flesh for most chiefdoms. You find that when there are new districts and constituencies being demarcated, sometimes there is no consultation with the traditional rulers. Therefore, the traditional rulers are at pains to understand how their own chiefdoms could be sitting between two districts.

Therefore, I would urge the hon. Minister of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs to pay attention to the creation of new districts with regard to chiefdom boundaries. Sometimes it is because of district boundaries that make it seem like some traditional rulers are not in support of the Government of the day. Chiefdom boundaries have to be properly settled.

Sir, another issue that I would also want the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs to pay attention to is what is happening between traditional rulers and the Ministry of Lands and Natural Resources. There are always a lot of disputes between the two parties and I would give Katuba as an example. At the moment, I can specifically talk about the Kamaila land, which is near the Chisamba Forest Reserve. This land was gazetted and the Ministry of Lands has taken it away from the traditional leadership. The traditional leadership has been trying to explain the significance of this land to the local area, but this has fallen on deaf ears.

Sir, I feel the traditional leadership has lost the respect that it must be given, especially on the aspect of land, despite being the custodians of traditional land. I want to urge this ministry to pay attention to such details because it is degrading and very embarrassing to find a traditional ruler like my chieftainess going to court over her own land because the Government has decided to encroach on traditional land.

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister spoke about mushrooming of chiefdoms. I am yet to understand what the hon. Minister meant by that statement before I speak to it. However, for chiefdoms to be said to be mushrooming, it means they were not there originally in the set up of the traditional concept of Zambia. It is the Government that interferes in traditional leadership and as a result, it tends to categorise the chiefdoms that it is not aware of as mushrooming, sub-chiefs or something else. In all fairness, traditional rulers are not even supposed to be discussed in a place like this House. We all come from chiefdoms.

Dr Chanda: But we are paying them!

Ms Mwashingwele: This is why I heard my colleague from Chiengi say that the respect we had for our traditional rulers in being watered down because we politicians feel we have more authority over them. Chiefs are the custodians of our people, especially those of us that come from rural constituencies. As such, we need to have a cordial relationship with them.

Sir, it was unfortunate to hear the hon. Minister talking about a budget line for the family trees of chiefs. I need to give caution to the hon. Minister. It is not our role as politicians to discuss the lineage of traditional rulers. It is by birth and nothing like a democratic process that we go through as elected hon. Members. Therefore, it is a waste of money for the ministry to budget for something like family trees of specific chiefs.

Mr Chairperson, the succession process in particular chiefdoms is already there. You simply need to go to the chiefdom and ask them how they do it. You do not need to waste money on this when we have so many competing needs. Succession is already set up by the people in a particular chiefdom. In fact, the hon. Minister needs to understand that when you look at family trees in some chiefdoms, there are certain lineages that actually do not even inherit the throne because of historical conflicts. I listened to Dr Malama talking about history. We need to write our own history if we are going to understand and avoid conflicts in the traditional set up.

Mr Chairperson, I would also want to talk about traditional ceremonies. I wonder how the Government will handle these ceremonies next year. This is because out of the more than ninety traditional ceremonies that are recognised in this country, twenty were not attended by the Executive this year, as mentioned by the hon. Minister. I do not know if that is where the Government is going to start from or will go back to attending the same ones that it attended this year. No matter what any traditional ruler’s political position might be, this is discrimination. What criterion was used to leave out the twenty traditional ceremonies and only attend to seventy?

Hon. Minister of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs, if you cannot have a budget line to support all the traditional ceremonies in a particular year, then please do not do it for a few because once you choose to do it for a few traditional leaders, the others will misunderstand you.

These are annual events. It is not like they happen by accident. We all know when they happen. In fact, I can tell you today what day Kulamba Kubwalo of the lenje people will take place next year. I do not need to be asked. It is already set in the annual calendar. Therefore, the hon. Minister should be able to make sure that everything is planned chronologically and be able to disburse funds for the Executive and attend such ceremonies. We should not be given excuses for Government leaders not attending certain ceremonies, unless the Government is telling us that some ceremonies are superior to others. We need to understand all this.

Mr Chairperson, having listened to Dr Malama speak about tonga chiefs in Kanchibiya, let me say something on that. I want to make it clear that such chiefdoms could be matrilineal. A bemba man can marry a tonga or lenje woman, and a lenje man can marry a bemba woman. My children, who may have a tonga father, could be indunas or chiefs in Mungule, not because they are tongas or are trying to balance tribes, but because of who their parent was. Therefore, it has nothing to do with balancing tribes. It has everything to do with who is your father or mother, and what type of lineage you are going to follow.

When we follow these aspects of tradition, and then hear hon. Members saying that some chiefs should be de-gazetted, we feel very disappointed. Politics has no room in chieftaincy. Not even the President has the ability to de-gazette my chieftainess or chief. It is not their call. Therefore, when we debate in this House, let us give facts. A chief cannot be degazetted once installed. From the history of Zambia, I can give a very good example of Sosala. President Michael Sata tried to do that to Sosala ...

Dr Malama: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Kampyongo: Question!

Ms Mwashingwele: We need to make sure that we do the research properly and bring the information correctly to this House because ...

Dr Malama: On a point of order, Sir.

Ms Mwashingwele: ... it helps the people out there. When we look at traditional ...

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! The hon. Member is insisting on a point of order.

A point of order is raised.

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Ms Mwashingwele: Mr Chairperson, when we look at those ones ...

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Member, sit down.

A point of order is raised.

Dr Malama: Mr Chairperson, thank you. I apologise to the hon. Member who was on the Floor. I just want to clarify that my statement was very clear. I was not talking about chiefs, but headmen who get appointed.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Raise a point of order.

Dr Malama: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Member in order to mislead this august House by insinuating that I was talking about Chief Luchembe appointing chiefs in his chiefdom? On the contrary, I meant that he is appointing worthy and hardworking citizens who are from different parts of the country as headmen.

I need your serious ruling.

The Deputy Chairperson: The good thing is that you have debated the point of order. Obviously, the hon. Member who is on the Floor did not get you clearly as to whether you meant chiefs or village headmen. Therefore, I will ask the hon. Member to correct that as she continues to debate.

Hon. Dr Malama did not mean that Chief Luchembe is appointing chiefs to have chiefdoms in Kanchibiya, but village headmen.

Hon. Member, you may continue.

Ms Mwashingwele: Mr Chairperson, thank you for that guidance.

Maybe I should also clarify that I know the role of a headman. Thank you for that clarification, Hon. Dr Malama.

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs also spoke about the 1958 map. When there are disputes in most chiefdoms, we tend to use the 1958 boundary and topographical map. However, the Ministry of Lands and Natural Resources insists on using the 1996 map, and Katuba has been a victim of this on several occasions. I, therefore, urge the hon. Minister to liaise with and guide other line ministries so that there is consistency. The 1958 map is very accurate and it gives us facts of the chiefdoms. I really appreciate the fact that the Government is going to print more of the 1958 map.

Mr Chairperson, finally, it is not right for a chief who has been serving for more than three years to be removed from the payroll. This cannot happen by accident, and I would not want to consider it as such. It is deliberate.

In this august House, people have said that traditional rulers must not be political or politically driven. I totally agree. However, we should not forget that these same traditional rulers have children, sons and daughters who once they feel that there is a problem, speak out. When they speak out, they are not being political. They are just playing the role of a parent. When they play the role of a parent, the Government must listen. The Patriotic Front (PF) Government keeps insisting that they are a listening Government. Therefore, when traditional rulers speak, they must listen because it is very important to do so.

However, when a traditional ruler speaks, the Government removes them from the payroll because they have the power to remove them. That is intimidation, and it must not happen that way. We need to have a lot of dialogue. Is the Government going to pay the chiefs who were removed from the payroll for those months they have not been paid? Will they be paid arrears?

All these things need to be ironed out because they are bringing conflict between the Government and traditional leaders. This is something that can be avoided. Traditional leaders are human and are bound to make mistakes. The Government knows what procedure to take. They can send people to go and dialogue with that traditional leader unlike using its power to simply take away an incentive from the chief.

Mr Chairperson, yesterday, it was mentioned that we are spending a lot of money building chiefs’ palaces. Do we understand that when we build a permanent structure like a house for a traditional leader like a chief, once they pass on, we have a problem because we have to go back to that chiefdom to build another house? These are the things we need to understand. So, when we make a budget line for construction of these structures, we must consult the people who will be affected maybe five or ten years down the line? These are the things we should take into account when discussing the budget for traditional rulers.

I thank you, Sir.

Professor Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Thank you very much, Mr Chairperson, I deeply appreciate the opportunity given to me to debate this very important budget Head.

To begin with, Mr Chairperson, this institution of chieftainship is an extremely important institution because it has been the custodian of our history, resources, culture and tradition. It is this institution of chieftainship, which of course, is the foundation and basis of our civilisation on the Continent of Africa. Therefore, we have to be extremely serious about this institution. However, with the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs in place, I think we have an opportunity to redefine the place of chiefs in our society and empower them to be effective offices of development.

Sir, from the public information which we already have, we are aware that there are 288 traditional leaders in this country. These include four paramount chiefs, forty-three senior chiefs and the rest are chiefs. Of course that number is broken down as follows:

In Eastern Province, we have fifty-one chiefs, which means fifty-one chiefdoms; in Luapula we have thirty-nine chiefs which means thirty-nine chiefdoms; in Central Province we have thirty-eight chiefs, which means thirty-eight chiefdoms; in Southern Province we have thirty-five chiefs, which means thirty-five chiefdoms; in North-Western Province we have thirty-three chiefs, which means thirty-three chiefdoms; In Muchinga we have thirty chiefs, Northern Province we have twenty-nine chiefs, on the Copperbelt Province we have fifteen chiefs; in Lusaka Province we have ten chiefs and in Western Province we have fifteen chiefs.

When we look at their remuneration, we appreciate that at least Government attempts to give them some remuneration. These personal emoluments which go to the chiefs every year are broken down as follows: Fifty-one chiefs in Eastern Provinces get about K6.1 million every year; Luapula Province gets about K4.7; Central Province gets about K4.6 million; Southern Province gets about K4.2 million; North-Western Province gets about K3.9 million; Muchinga Province gets K3.6 million; Northern Province gets K3.4 million; Copperbelt Province gets K1.8 million; Lusaka Province gets K1.2 million; and Western Province gets K1.3 million. That is assuming that the chiefs are getting an average of K12,000 per month.

The point I am driving at, Mr Chairperson is that, this is highly insignificant because it is not commensurate to the importance and status of the historical role of this office of chieftainship. Of late, there are children from other parts of this world who organise themselves into businesses, come here to open up mines and displace our people from the land. Meanwhile, our chiefs end up getting nothing. And yet these are our resources which our chiefs have been protecting for centuries. At the end of it all, they get nothing out of that. What they get are just these meager incomes from the National Budget. This must change and we must change this.

In Serenje, there is information circulating that land is being grabbed by sons and daughters from other countries, who are taking over the land and our people are being displaced from the land hence perpetuating poverty. This shows clearly that we must empower our chiefs so that they are able to play their historical guardianship role of our resources.

Mr Chairperson, let us take a cue of what is happening with the people of Mafikeng in South Africa. Their chiefdom was able to get shares in the Platinum Mine and each year they get shares from whatever the mine makes. They are able to have millions of dollars in the chiefdom account which they are using to educate their children. They are using that money to build roads in the kingdom and they also used that money to build a first class football stadium in the world, where some of the teams in the World Cup which was held in South Africa were stationed. This is what we ought to do in this country. Let us find a way of changing things so that our chiefs or traditional leadership play their role as custodians of our resources so that they would be able to get shares out of these resources.

It does not make sense, Mr Chairperson, for children of other people to come from other countries to settle in our countryside or forests and end up cutting the most precious trees that have been preserved by our traditional leaders …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Prof. Lungwangwa: … for centuries. Whether it is Mukula, Muzauli, or whatever precious trees it is, they have taken centuries to grow, but these fellows come here and cut them indiscriminate and ship them out of this country. However, because our chiefs are helpless and are not empowered, they cannot protect these precious resources which they have protected for centuries. I implore the Government to find a way of empowering the chiefs whether it is legal or by any other means, so that they are able to play their role of protecting our resources. This is very important, Mr Chairperson, because we need to change the way things are done.

This ministry must address itself to a redefinition, a conceptualisation of what chieftaincy is in our country, and the role that our chiefs ought to play to enhance development in our respective communities. This is important because they are the foundation of what we ought to be.

Mr Chairperson, even what we call development through tourism should be anchored on this institution in terms of the culture and values, which we have inherited over the centuries. Traditional leaders have protected wildlife for centuries, but as a country, we have not played a serious role in making this institution the foundation of our well-being.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Professor Nkandu Luo.

However, before the hon. Member speaks, it is important that we save time when debating so that we allow many other hon. Members to debate. If you finish the entire 15 minutes, even when you have exhausted your points, it will be difficult for us accommodate more hon. Members and I am receiving a lot of notes about it.

The Minister of Higher Education (Prof. Luo): Mr Chairperson, first of all, I listened very carefully to the policy debate by the hon. Minister of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs and he was spot on about the importance of the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs.

Mr Chairperson, I recall that there was disquiet about how this ministry had no role to play when President Sata established it. I believe this was because we do not take time to read what contributions certain aspects make to our country.

Mr Chairperson, one of the things that have remained a part of the role that our traditional leaders played in this country is how the people of the Southern Province refer to their headmen as Simabuuku. This is because in the past, the village headmen, on the instruction of the chiefs, were doctors, statisticians, forestry rangers and the like. These people took statistics of the deaths and births in a particular chiefdom and kept them in books. When the colonial masters, through the governors, came to chiefdom, they were able to collect the statistics of what was happening in that particular chiefdom.

Mr Chairperson, these headmen protected our natural resources. There was no indiscriminate plunder of natural resources, like it is now, because these village headmen were able to tell when a tree had been cut and they took punitive measures against those responsible.

Mr Chairperson, our chiefs promoted social dialogue and entertainment. Chiefdoms even had campfires where everyone would come together as a symbol of unity. These chiefs were the ones who presided over legal matters and what President Sata was trying to bring back to this country was an appreciation of the chiefs. If traditional leaders continued to play these roles, some of the challenges we are facing today, especially in the rural parts of Zambia, would not exist.

Mr Chairperson, we have put this to test through the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs. We launched a campaign against child marriage through the ministry and it has actually been celebrated worldwide. Zambia is seen as a leader in the campaign against child marriage. We are respected by every country because of the role that our traditional leaders have played in the fight against child marriage. We now see chiefs that have even created foundations, like Chief Mzamani who is ensuring that people in his chiefdom do not get their children married early.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Prof. Luo: Mr Chairperson, we have launched the campaign against gender based violence through the chiefs. We even have champions against gender based violence such as Chief Chikanta of Kalomo District who has refused to be part of the divisive nature that is being practiced by some traditional leaders. He has stood tall to say he would not be a part of division in this country.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Prof. Luo: Mr Chairperson, I was surprised as my colleagues debated and asked why the Government is not gazetting certain chiefs. I thought we all passed a Constitution in this House. What I recall from our Constitution is that we decided to uphold the submissions that came from the chiefs themselves and the people of Zambia that the Government shall not play any role in gazetting chiefs. Why should we come back to this august House and start urging the Government to recognise chiefs again? This was not a submission by the Patriotic Front (PF) Government, but a submission by the chiefs themselves and the people of Zambia. We were told that Zambians want to see a people-driven Constitution and so we gave it to them. As far as the Government is concerned, we should not be drawn into issues of recognition and gazetting.

Mr Chairperson, I want to talk about palaces. Hon. Mwashingwele asked if we consulted before we started constructing chiefs’ palaces. Not only did we consult, this was a request by the chiefs themselves. The majority of the subjects who used to look after chiefs historically did not have decent accommodation so the Government, being a listening Government, listened and agreed to construct palaces. We then took this issue to the House of Chiefs for debate because we are aware of some of the implications of some traditions. It was decided that would build palaces for chiefs instead of houses. This means that when a chief dies, the next chief takes over that palace. The Government will not go back and construct another palace.

Mr Chairperson, it would be a special case where a traditional leader does not want to live in a palace that their colleague lived in and it would be dealt with accordingly. However, as far as we are concerned, we are building palaces. We know that, for example, the successive Litungas of the Western Province have lived in the same palace and successive Mwatakazembes of Lunda Chiefdom have lived in the same palace. So, what causes controversy when the traditional leaders out there are happy to go and live in a palace that another chief lived in?

Mr Chairperson, let us not start bringing complications and playing politics. There is an agreement between the Government and the traditional leaders, to uplift their living standards so that they can also enjoy what we enjoy as leaders in this country.

Mr Chairperson, I also want to talk about traditional ceremonies. I was very surprised as I listened to hon. Members of Parliament who were saying that the ceremonies that took place recently had no issues.

Mr Chairperson, having served as a Minister of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs, I know that whether a traditional ceremony has been organised by the chief himself or other organisers, the Government officials will always be invited. Secondly, there will be people from outside that particular area, who will also come to attend that traditional ceremony.

Mr Chairperson, I attended and presided over a lot of traditional ceremonies and during that time, I saw people from different ethnic groups coming to attend these traditional ceremonies. When we talk about unity, it is not about one ethnic group. It is about bringing people from different races to celebrate together. In fact, traditional ceremonies are not for dancing kwasa kwasa as we saw. Traditional ceremonies are for dancing traditional dances.

Hon. Opposition Members: What is kwasa kwasa?

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, hon. Members. The Chair is here. What is the meaning of kwasa kwasa?

Prof. Luo: Mr Chairperson, kwasa kwasa is the dance which we saw on the headline of one of the newspapers where one political leader was dancing like this (Prof. Luo danced.)

Laughter

Prof. Luo: Mr Chairperson, that is kwasa kwasa.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Some hon. Members have not seen the meaning of kwasa kwasa.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: I believe the hon. Minister is trying to say that it is a type of dance.

Prof. Luo: Mr Chairperson, we all saw that dance as a headline on one of the newspapers at a certain traditional ceremony. In that particular area, their traditional dance is like this (Prof. Luo danced), but we saw that leader dancing like this (Prof. Luo danced).

Laughter

Prof. Luo: Mr Chairperson, on a very serious note, I think that we need to do an introspection. When we stand in this House to speak, we need to represent facts as they are. In fact, as leaders coming from those areas, where there is segregation, we should be the first ones to try and apologise on behalf of traditional leaders that are excluding other ethnic groupings from attending their traditional ceremonies. I have never been to a traditional ceremony where there is only one group of people. For example, at Mwata Kazembe’s traditional ceremony, chiefs from across the country attend that ceremony in large numbers. At the Nchwala Traditional Ceremony, chiefs travel from across Zambia attend that ceremony. The political parties also attend this ceremony. At the Kalumba Kubwalo Traditional Ceremony, the same happens. This includes our own traditional ceremony, which is known as the Nsonge Traditional Ceremony.

Mr Chairperson, if we find a situation where certain ethic groups are excluded from attending certain traditional ceremonies, we should know that there is no peace. That is actually a recipe for segregation and disunity in the country. We should be the first ones in this august House, especially those who would have attended those ceremonies to condemn such acts. I want to condemn in no uncertain terms, the kind of ceremonies that were held with the exclusion of others. We hope in 2018, there will be a review because this is making the work of the Government and the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs difficult. I would like to suggest to my colleague, the Minister of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs to speak to such traditional leaders that they are not playing a unifying role.

Mr Chairperson, in fact, the reason the chieftaincy has been maintained up to this time in this country is because of the unification and preservation role that the chiefs have played. If our forefathers and our traditional leaders did what some of these chiefs are doing now, Zambia would have been destroyed by now. We still have Zambia due to the way in which the Zambian traditions and cultures were preserved and protected by our traditional leaders,. We should not move to what happened in other countries where they had to abolish the chieftaincy. Chieftaincy it is a very important part of our culture and heritage. Therefore, we need to preserve it. The politicians should keep away from interfering in the work of the chiefdoms. They should ensure that the chiefdoms are preserved. Those who are presiding over it should not only bring a unifying voice to the chiefdoms, but also to the rest of their colleagues in other provinces and the country at large.

Mr Chairperson, I want to conclude by saying that we should not be people who want to be like tortoise. When it is time for other people, they take their heads out and when it is their time, they pretend as if all is well.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The hon. Member’s time has expired.

The Minister of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs (Mr Sichalwe): Mr Speaker, in thanking all those who debated in support of the policy statement, I wish to firstly confirm that the official term of Kapaso used in my policy statement is the official term in accordance with the Chiefs Act, Section 9, CAP 287 of the Laws of Zambia.

Mr Chairperson, I now wish to address some of the issues that were raised by the various members of the House who debated. Indeed, I was equally delighted to be with Mr Nkombo at Chikwela Makumbi Traditional Ceremony in Chongwe. Indeed, it was a unifying function and I would urge all royal establishments to emulate their colleagues as opposed to snapping the Government’s presence. I wish to agree with Mr Nkombo that traditional ceremonies should not be made into political grounds. The onus falls on organisers of ceremonies to ban political activities.

Mr Chairperson, I wish to thank Hon. Nkandu Luo for having ably addressed the issue of palaces. She did respond to most of the debators who had spoken on this issue.

On traditional ceremonies, I am pleased to note that Mr Nkombo has recognised that we have a President in the name of Mr Chagwa Lungu…

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichalwe: …whom he is requesting to should rescind his decision of not attending traditional ceremonies. Mr Nkombo may wish to know that the President’s decision was that he will not attend traditional ceremonies until the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs comes up with modalities on how to manage these ceremonies. I wish to inform the House that my officers are currently digesting this aspect and will be presenting it to the House Chiefs for consideration in the coming second session. I would urge, Mr Nkombo, to engage our fathers, the chiefs, to contribute positively to the Motion when it comes before the House of Chiefs.

Mr Chairperson, Mr Nkombo raised an issue of too much security where the Head of State has been attending ceremonies. I wish to remind Mr Nkombo not to compare oranges and apples, as he has recognised that there is a President who should be attending traditional ceremonies, it is the institution of the Presidency that is being protected at these ceremonies. Therefore, the security that will be accorded to his Excellency the President will not be the same as that of a Cabinet Minister. He will certainly find a difference…

Dr Kambwili: Ngatawakwata inchito kuikalafye!

Mr Sichalwe: Tamwaliko ba Kambwili, mind your language.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Member, continue with your debate and ignore those who are debating …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: ...while seated. In fact, it is not their time to debate. Ignore hecklers and continue debating.

Mr Sichalwe: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, on the issue of a medical and funeral Scheme, I wish to inform Mr Nkombo that this is actually an insurance scheme that we are working on. It is in line with what Mr Nkombo was trying to bring forward in his debate.

Mr Chairperson, Hon. Belemu, raised an issue on boundary maps. I wish to confirm that we are looking into the issue of boundary maps. I indicated in my policy statement that we have provided a budget of K574,250 for revising the maps.

Ms Siliya: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichalwe: Mr Chairperson, on the benefits accruing to the chiefdoms from investments in their area, we are also addressing the issue and it will come up in the Traditional Bill. Mr Belemu may wish to be reminded that management of natural resources has been catered for under the amended Constitution in Article 168(3) which requires us to prescribe how management of investments will be done. That also goes to answer hon. Dr Malama who raised concern on the management of natural resources.

Sir, Hon. Mwashingwele’s issues were adequately handled by Hon. Prof. Luo. However, I wish to remind Hon. Mwashingwele that the mushrooming of chiefdoms is as a result of misinterpretation of Article 165(1) of the Constitution as empowering people to come up with chiefdoms according to their cultures, customs and traditions.

Mr Chairperson, on succession lineage, indeed, Hon. Mwashingwele, despite having lineages, we still have conflicts which are now so huge that they end up landing in the courts of law and the courts still do not resolve them. We thought it prudent that we have these family trees formulated by the facilitation of my ministry at district level, province and the headquarters will keep the same documents to avoid tempering with the family trees that have been presented.

Mr Chairperson, in brief, I would like to thank all the hon. Members who have supported this policy overwhelmingly.

I thank you.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 18/01 – (Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs – Headquarters – K48,242,080).

Mr Mutelo (Mitete): Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 5004 – Grant to Institutions, Activities 026 – Heritage Site Management and 033 – Support to Museums, no provisions, why?

Mr Sichalwe: Mr Chairperson, the statutory body has actually been moved to the Ministry of Tourism and Arts.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lufuma (Kabompo): Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on page 144, Programme 5005 – Grants to Institutions – Operational, Activity 400. I notice that in this current year…

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Member, you are too far advanced.

Mr Lufuma: Is that so?

I am sorry.

Mr Lufuma resumed his seat.

Vote 13/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 13/02 – (Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs – Human Resource and Administration Department – K24,715,980).

Mrs Chonya (Kafue): Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 5009 – Financial Management and Accounting, Activity 010 – K116,700, what has necessitated the increase?

Ms Chonya (Kafue): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5009, Activity 010 – Production of Financial Reports – K116,700. Last year, K67,906 was allocated to this activity, and this year, it has shot up to K116,700. What has necessitated this increase in the production of financial reports? Do we expect any new reports from the ministry?

Mr Sichalwe: Sorry, Mr Chairperson, I did not get the progamme and activity.

Ms Chonya: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5009, Activity 010 – Production of Financial Reports – K116,700. Why is there a significant increase to the amount allocated to this activity this year in relation to last year?

Mr Sichalwe: Mr Chairperson, the upward adjustment is due to the increase in the number of activities to be undertaken and the management of retainers’ wages and subsidises is still being done manually.

Thank you, Sir.

Vote 13/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 13/03 – (Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs – House of Chiefs Department – K6,233,440).

Mr Jere (Livingstone): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5011, Activity 026 – Rehabilitation of Office Buildings – Nil. Considering the fact that most of the local courts’ roofs were blown off and need to be rehabilitated, why is there no allocation to this activity in 2018?

Mr Sichalwe: Mr Chairperson, there is no allocation of funds to this activity due to the recommendation that the Ministry of Works and Supply constructs new chambers and local courts are under the Ministry of Justice.

Thank you, Sir.

Prof. Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5064, Activity 010 – Conflict Resolutions – K744,800. This allocation is similar to that of last year yet the hon. Minister stated that conflicts have increased. Is this in line with the increase of conflicts among various chiefdoms?

Mr Sichalwe: Mr Chairperson, the reduction is due to the relocation of resources to Activity 199 – Service to Clerks’ Office under Head 13/03 and Programme 5001 – General Administration.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Mbangweta (Nkeyema): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5064, Activity 023 – Provincial Council of Chiefs Meetings – K1,007,820. This activity was not there last year. Is it a new activity? If so, could the hon. Minister share with us how it will be structured?

Mr Sichalwe: Mr Chairperson, the allocation is meant to facilitate the holding of meetings in provinces in order to provide feedback to chiefs after the sessions. If the hon. Member paid attention to my policy speech, I stated that provincial council meetings will be held to discuss the sessions.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kamboni (Kalomo Central): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5001, Activity 199 – Services to Clerks’ Office – K183,600. Last year, K42,000 was allocated to this activity, but this year, this allocation has increased by over 200 per cent. Could the hon. Minister explain why suddenly there is that increase when in actual sense, the allocation of Activity 003 – Office Administration has gone down from K301,146 to K182,620?

Mr Sichalwe: Mr Chairperson, for Activity 003, the reduction is due to the relocation of the resources to Programme 5030, Activity 054 – Legislation Review under Head 13/06. However, the upward adjustment to Activity 199 – Services to Clerks’ Office is meant to cater for the services in the Clerks’ office and Office of the House of Chiefs’ Chairperson.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 13/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 13/05 – (Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs –Chiefs and Traditional Affairs Department – K66,477,340).

Mr Jere: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5005, Activity 156 – Retainers Terminal Benefits and Long Service Bonus – Nil. Last year, K626,500 was allocated to this activity whereas …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1640 hours until 1700 hours.

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

Mr Jere: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5005, Activity 156 – Retainers Terminal Benefits and Long Service Bonus – Nil. I want to know if the Government has stopped paying terminal benefits and long service bonuses for 2018, bearing in mind the fact that in 2017, there was an allocation of K626,000.

Mr Sichalwe: Mr Chairperson, Programme 5005, Activity 156 – Retainers Terminal Benefits and Long Service Bonus – Nil has been re-aligned to Head 13/02 Human Resources and Administration Department under Programme 5005.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwene (Mangango): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5128, Activity 001 – Chiefdom Development – K197,440. I note that the allocation for 2018, has been reduced from K600,853 to K197,440. Considering the poor state of many chiefdoms, this allocation is worrisome. I want to know why there is a reduction in the allocation.

Mr Sichalwe: Mr Chairperson, Programme 5128, Activity 001 – Chiefdom Development – K197,440, the reduction is due to the re-alignment of resources to Programme 5011, Activity 238 – Construction of Chiefs Palaces.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Musokotwane (Liuwa): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5011, Activity 238 – Construction of Chiefs Palaces – K18,195,610. The ministry, in 2013, promised to construct a palace for Chieftainess Mbowanjikana of Libonda in Liuwa Parliamentary Constituency. Could the hon. Minister assure me and Her Royal Highness that the amount that the Government has allocated in the 2018 Budget includes the construction of the palace that was promised in 2013.

Mr Sichalwe: Mr Chairperson, I wish to give the hon. Member a bonus answer that the Government is currently working on completion of Phase 1, and if the said palace is included in phase 1, it will certainly be completed before we move to Phase 2.

I thank you, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: I will call upon the last hon. Members. These are Mrs Mwashingwele and Mr Kintu so that we make progress.

Ms Mwashingwele (Katuba): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5005, Activity 400 – Chiefs Subsidies – K43,090,000. In 2017, the allocation was K61,200,000. Does that indicate that chiefdoms have reduced?

Mr Sichalwe: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 5005, Activity 400 – Chiefs Subsidies – K43,090,000, the reduction in the allocation is due to the re-alignment of Head 13/02, Human Resource and Administration Department, Programme 5005, Activity 401 - Retainers Wages – K18,818,000.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kintu (Solwezi East): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme, ...

Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, firstly figures do not lie, and we are dealing with figures in the Budget right now. I am at a loss because if you look around the Assembly Chamber, you will see that there are about five people who still want to get a bite at the figures of the Budget, which is our sole responsibility. I would like you to guide us, succinctly, whether the new trend is that because we have to make progress, hon. Members cannot ask questions to hon. Ministers to justify and give validation to these figures, which we are going to be appropriating for the rest of the fiscal year. If the answer is yes, would it be wrong then to just suggest that we go ahead and adopt the whole Budget now and proceed, ...

Mr Ngulube: Question!

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: ... because it becomes an exercise in futility for hon. Members to be limited in seeking clarifications. There are only four or five hon. Members who want to ask questions on the Budget allocation to the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs. Is this now the norm? Are we now going to be saying there is a cutoff point as if we are writing Grade 7 examinations?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: I hear you hon. Member. However, you will agree with me that this has been the custom. When the Chairperson sees that a number of people have asked questions, he can decide to move forward. I think that this is very important, and you cannot expect the Chairperson to allow everyone to debate, then we will never finish. While I appreciate your concerns, I wish to remind you that the Chairperson can decide to make progress.

Mr Ngulube: Long live the Chair.

Mr Mwiimbu indicated to speak.

The Deputy Chairperson: I will not allow you to raise a point of order, hon. Member for Monze Central.

Mr Mwiimbu: It is not a point of order. It is a clarification.

The Deputy Chairperson: No, I will not …

Mr Mwiimbu: We can decide to be voting. We can decide to vote against it.

Mr Kasonso: Yes!

Mr Mwiimbu: If we want, we can cause a division on everything. Is this what you want?

The Deputy Chairperson: Listen, hon. Members. I indicated that I have appreciated the concerns from Hon. Nkombo. I was just reminding the House that the Chair can decide to make progress. If the hon. Member got me clearly, I said that if we allow everyone to debate or to speak, we are not going to make progress. Hon. Members will bear with me. For the sake of progress, I think that Hon. Kintu can proceed.

Mr Kintu: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5130, Activity 002 – Water and Sanitation in Chiefdoms – K102,240. In which chiefdom or community will this activity be implemented? An allocation of K102,240 is too little.

Mr Sichalwe: Mr Chairperson, I cannot give the exact location offhand. However, we will consider it in conjunction with our provincial administrations and apply it where water and sanitation is most needed.

I thank you, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Lufuma, what is your clarification?

Mr Lufuma: Mr Chairperson, it has been overtaken by events.

Hon. UPND Members called for a division.

Question that Vote 13/05 – Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs – Chiefs and Traditional Affairs Department – K66,477,340 be ordered to stand part of the Estimates put and the House voted.

Ayes – 83

Mr C. Banda

Mr W. Banda

Mr Chali

Ms Chalikosa

Mr Chama

Dr Chanda

Mr Chansa

Dr Chibanda

Mr Chilangwa

Dr Chilufya

Mr Chisopa

Mr Chiteme

Mr Chitotela

Mr Chiyalika

Mr Chungu

Mr Daka

Mrs Fundanga

Mrs P. Jere

Mr Kabanda

Ms Kabanshi

Mr Kafwaya

Mr Kalobo

Dr Kambwili

Mr Kampyongo

Ms Kapata

Mr Kasandwe

Mr Katambo

Mr Kaziya

Mr Kunda

Mr Lubinda

Prof. Luo

Mr Lusambo

Mr Mabumba

Mr A. Malama

Dr M. Malama

Mr Malanji

Mr Mawere

Mr Mbulakulima

Mr Mecha

Mr S. Miti

Ms M Miti

Mr Mukosa

Mr Mulenga

Ms Kampamba

Mr A. Mumba

Mr D. Mumba

Mr Mundubile

Mr Mung’andu

Mr Munkonge

Mr Mushanga

Mr Mushimba

Mr Musonda

Mr Musukwa

Mr Mutale

Mr Mutati

Mr Mwakalombe

Mr Mwale

Mr Mwamba

Mr Mwewa

Mr Mwila

Mr Ngambi

Mr Ng’onga

Mr Ngulube

Mr Nkhuwa

Mr Nyirenda

Ms O Phiri

Mr P Phiri

Mr Sampa

Mr Sichalwe

Mr Sichone

Mr Sikazwe

Mrs Simukoko

Mr Siwale

Mr Siwanzi

Ms Subulwa

Mr S. Tembo

Mr M. Tembo

Mr L. Tembo

Dr Wanchinga

Mrs Wina

Mr Yaluma

Mr C. Zulu

Mr M Zulu

Noes –39

Mr Chikote

Ms Chisangano

Mrs Chonya

Mr Fungulwe

Mr M. Jere

Mr Kakubo

Mr Kamboni

Mr Kamondo

Mr Kintu

Ms Kucheka

Mr Kufakwandi

Mr Kundoti

Mr Lufuma

Mr Lumayi

Mr Machila

Mr Mandumbwa

Mr Mbangweta

Mr Michelo

Mr Miyanda

Mr Miyutu

Mr Mukumbuta

Mr S. Mulusa

Dr Musokotwane

Mr Mutaba

Mr Mutelo

Ms Mwashingwele

Mr Mweetwa

Mr Mweene

Mr Mwiimbu

Mr Mwiinga

Mr Nanjuwa

Mr Ndalamei

Mr Nkombo

Mr Shabula

Mr Sialubalo

Mr Sing’ombe

Brig. Gen. Sitwala

Mr Syakalima

Ms Tambatamba

Abstention – 01

Mr Kasonso

Question accordingly agreed to.

Vote 13/05, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 13/06 – (Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs – Planning, Research and information Department – K3,173,430).

Mr Lufuma (Kabompo): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5030, Activity 054 – Legislation Review – K638,700.

The Minister of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs (Mr Sichalwe): Mr Chairperson, the upward adjustment is intended to scale up the review of relevant pieces of legislation in view of the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Act No. 2. of 2016. The various legislations will have to speak into the new Constitution.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 13/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 13/07 – (Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs – Finance Department – K1,085,300).

Mr Mutelo (Mitete): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5000, Activity 001 – Salaries Division I – K608,660, Activity 002 – Salaries Division II – K476,640).

Mr Sichalwe: Mr Chairperson, this programme is meant to facilitate the payment of salaries and wages and other emoluments for officers in the Accounts Department. We are moving from a unit level to a department level. This is what has necessitated the adjustment.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 13/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 31 – (Ministry of Justice – Headquarters – K551,307,930).

The Minister of justice (Mr Lubinda): Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank you for giving me the opportunity to share with this august House the Government policy on the Ministry of Justice.

Sir, it is my sincere hope that the policy direction and the implementation of programmes and activities that have been earmarked for the 2018-2020 medium term period will contribute to the enhancement of a conducive Government environment for a diversified and inclusive economy as espoused in Pillar five of the 7^th NDP.

Mr Chairperson, my policy statement is in four parts. Part one provides the introduction, part two provides a reflection on the implementation of programmes under the Ministry of Justice for the period 2015-2017, part three gives the policy framework of the ministry and the conclusion is in part four.

Introduction

Mr Chairperson, the Ministry of justice is mandated with the responsibility of facilitating the administration of justice and the promotion of the observance of the rule of law. Its goal is to achieve improved dispensation of justice, the delivery of legal services and increased adherence to good governance principles.

Sir, as you may be aware, the Ministry of Justice is a service ministry, which provides legal services to the entire Government. According to Government Gazette Notice No. 183 of 2012, on the statutory functions and composition of Government portfolios, the Ministry of Justice is responsible for the following portfolio functions:

administration of estates;

advanced legal education;

debt recovery;

human rights and governance;

law reviewing and reform;

legal advice and policy;

legal practitioners;

litigation; and

prosecution.

Sir, in addition, the ministry is responsible for the following statutory bodies and institutions:

the Council Law of Reporting;

the Judicial Complaints Authority;

the Legal Aid Board;

the National Prosecution Authority;

the Zambia Institute of Advanced Legal Education; and

the Zambia Law Development Commission.

Mr Chairperson, following the change in the planning from sector to multi-sectoral (integrated) approach in 2017, I wish to inform this august House that the ministry has been mandated to chair the Cluster Advisory group on Pillar Five of the 7^th NDP, which is:

“Creation of the Conducive Governance Environment for a Diversified and Inclusive Economy.”

Sir, the Cluster Advisory Group is an avenue for co-ordinating the implementation and monitoring of programmes under Pillar Five.

Overview of Programme Implementation for the Period 2015-17

Mr Chairperson, I now wish to highlight the programmes implemented by my ministry during the period 2015-17 in line of Cabinet Office guidelines. However, I will focus on the activities implemented in 2017, given that activities for 2015 to 2016, were presented to this august House in 2016.

Sir, during the year under review, my ministry continued implementing interventions in line with the ministry’s strategic plan, the revised Sixth National Development Plan (NDP), the very inspirational Patriotic Front (PF) Manifesto and the general Government policy on matters related to governance. In order to carry out these programmes, the ministry was allocated with a total amount of K251 million in 2017.

Mr Chairperson, with the amount of K251 million the ministry implemented the following programmes among others:

provided legal services to the Government in terms of vetting of contracts, representation of the Government in courts of law, drafting of legislation, law revision and providing of general legal advice to the Government and quasi-government institutions;

facilitated the constitution review process. As we are all aware, submissions were received from different stakeholders during the period under review. As I speak to you, a zero draft has since been developed and with your permission, I shall brief this august House on the way forward at an opportune on the constitution refinement process;

facilitated the preparation and presentation of the first country progress report on the implementation of the national programmes of action on the African Peer Review Mechanism (APRM). The report was presented to the APRM member states in January, 2017, by His Excellency, the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu. The report highlighted the key milestones Zambia had attained in the implementation of the plan and the areas that needed further attention. Having achieved this milestone, Zambia is on the way to go for a second peer review cycle, making her the second country to undergo a second review;

facilitated the preparation of a zero draft of the Political Parties Bill, 2017, which was later subjected to public scrutiny through public submissions and holding of a national stakeholders’ consultative forum in September, 2017. With your permission again, I will be presenting a detailed ministerial statement on this matter at an appropriate time;

facilitated the consultative process on Zambia’s membership to the International Criminal Court (ICC). As you may recall, I informed this honorable august House in June, 2017, through a ministerial statement, on the findings of this consultative process.

facilitated payment of funds to some of the intended beneficiaries under the compensation and wards vote;

updated volumes 8, 9, 11 and 12 of the statute books in 2017. Tremendous progress has been made on revising volumes 3 and 10. As we are all aware, the statute books in Zambia have been outdated since 1997;

prepared the universal periodic review national report for the United Nations Commission on Human Rights (UNCHR), which is now due for presentation in a few weeks in Geneva;

through the office of the Administrator General and official receiver, successfully completed the negotiations on the sale of Roan Antelope Mining Corporation of Zambia Plc’s (RAMCOZ) Luanshya Tailings Dam. The official receiver, as receiver for RAMCOZ, has been in the process of disposing off the tailings dam located in Luanshya since 2008. The process has taken long because several negotiations that looked promising failed to materialise resulting in the official receiver having to re-advertise the sale of the tailings dam. In 2016, the official receiver re-advertised the sale of tailings dam for the third time and a successful bidder was then selected;

continued to administer, through the Administrator-General’s office, estates of persons who die testate (meaning with a will) in accordance with the provisions of the Wills and Administration of Testate Estate Act, Chapter 60 of the laws of Zambia. The Administrator-General is appointed executor. Further, the ministry administered estates of persons who die intestate (meaning without a will) in accordance with the Intestate Succession Act;

undertook national visitation of correctional facilities in the country, together with the Ministries of Home Affairs and Religious Affairs and National Guidance and various other stakeholders. This culminated into holding of a stakeholder forum to share lessons and strategies on how to address the numerous identified challenges;

incorporated a total of 145 public prosecutors from various law enforcement agencies such as the Zambia Wildlife Authority (ZAWA), Immigration Department and Zambia Police Service into the National Prosecution Authority (NPA). This was done to enhance coordination and strengthen the prosecution system in the country in line with the constitutional provision at Article 180; and

facilitated the recruitment of twenty-one state advocates under the Attorney-General’s chambers;

Mr Chairman, I now wish to turn my attention to the policy direction of the ministry for the period 2018 to 2020. As you may be aware, His Excellency the President, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, launched the 7^thNDP in June, 2017. As I indicated earlier, that plan provides a framework for the nation’s transformative agenda for the period 2017 to 2021. The plan has revolutionised the Government’s approach to development by moving away from sector-based approaches to an integrated (multi-sectoral) approach.

Mr Chairman, in view of this change, the policy direction of the ministry will be focused on pillar five of the 7^thNDP. In view of the foregoing, the ministry requests this august House to approve a budget in the amount of K551.4 million for 2018, to facilitate the implementation of the priority interventions. Of this amount of K551.4 million, the largest percentage of that budget has been allocated to the compensation and awards vote at 55 per cent. This is followed by grant aided institutions at 33.9 per cent, personal emoluments at only 5.9 per cent and lastly, recurrent departmental charges at only 5.1 per cent or a total of K28 million.

Mr Chairperson, the key policy intervention areas or goals for my ministry include the following seven:

PROVISION OF LEGAL SERVICES TO GOVERNMENT

Under this policy intervention, there are seven specific objectives as set out below.

Provision of Legal Advice

The ministry will continue providing legal services to government in terms of vetting of contracts, representation in courts of law, drafting of legislation, law revision and providing of general legal advice.

Strengthening Capacity of the Attorney-General’s Chambers

Mr Chairman, during the debate of the 2017 Budget in December last year, I informed this august House that the ministry was overwhelmed with the high number of contracts and draft legislation forwarded from client ministries for clearance. I further indicated that the ministry was also overwhelmed with the number of cases forwarded for defence in the courts of law, which was estimated at a ratio of 400 litigation cases per advocate for a period of twelve month. Surely, that is too high.

Mr Chairperson, in addition, I brought it to the attention of this august House that the creation of new courts such as the Court of Appeal and the Constitutional Court, following the amendment of the Republican Constitution in 2016, was expected to increase the workload per advocate. I attributed these challenges of critical shortage of legal personnel in the Ministry to inadequate staff establishment and high staff turnover arising from the varying remuneration among state advocates within the Public Service.

I am glad today to report to this august House that in order to sustain the positive impact of recruiting the twenty-one state advocates I referred to earlier, your Ministry has made a provisional allocation of K6.2 million in the 2018 budget to facilitate the harmonisation of conditions of service for state advocates in the Ministry and I hope this august House will support this noble cause.

Strengthening of Debt Collection Management

Mr Chairperson, let me now turn to a matter which is also very close to my heart, and that is, strengthening of debt collection and management. Over a long period of time, the Government has not paid particular attention to what it is owed by individuals and companies. During the coming year, the Ministry will streamline and strengthen its debt collection unit to enhance efficiency and effectiveness. As part of this process, the Ministry has issued a circular through Cabinet Office requesting all ministries, provinces and other spending agencies to submit debts owed to the Government. The Ministry is grateful to all those that have submitted the required information. It is the Government’s intention to enhance the debt collection unit by allocating specialised state advocates to this unit.

Scaling up Migration to Electronic-Governance

Mr Chairperson, objective number four is scaling up migration to e-governance or to adopt a paperless culture. In line with the e-governance agenda of the Government, the Ministry will streamline its operations to promote usage of e-Government services. It is the intention of the Ministry to reduce usage of paper in its processes such as printing of draft Bills.

As hon. Members of this House can imagine, the process of developing legislation uses large volumes of paper. A total of K400,000 has been provided in the 2018 budget to facilitate the implementation of this policy intervention to move away from utilisation of paper to a paperless legislative system. It is my hope that hon. Members of this august House will support that intervention.

Creation of a Mirror Database for Ratified Conventions and Treaties

Mr Chairperson, objective number five speaks to the creation of a mirror database for ratified conventions and treaties. The Ministry, will in 2018, create a mirror database on all conventions and treaties ratified by the Government. This will enhance coordination in the domestication of treaties and conventions. A total of K180,000 is being requested from this hon. House to provide for the facilitation of this intervention.

Fast-Tracking Revision and Updating of Statute Book

Mr Chairperson, objective number six is fast-tracking the revision and updating of the Statute Book. The Ministry of Justice is keen to complete the revision of the Statute Book, which, like I said earlier, was last updated in 1997. I am happy to report that this year, some progress has been made. A total of K1 million has been allocated to the unit to scale up the law revision in 2018.

Strengthening Role of Zambia Law Development Commission in Development of Legislation

Mr Chairperson, finally on this matter, objective number seven is strengthening the role of the Zambia Law Development Commission in the development of legislation. The Zambia Law Development Commission plays a key role in the development and revision of legislation. However, the Government has noted with concern that some Government agencies have not been utilising the services of this institution for a variety of reasons.

In view of this, the Ministry and the Government intends to resolve these challenges so that all ministries, provinces and other spending agencies may engage the Zambia Law Development Commission as they develop legislation with effect from 2018. A total of K5.5 million in 2018, is being requested to facilitate the implementation of the work of the Zambia Law Development Commission.

STRENGTHENING OF THE PROSECUTION SYSTEM

Mr Chairperson, the second intervention area is strengthening of the prosecution system of Zambia. During the period 2018 to 2020, the Ministry will scale up the decentralisation of prosecutorial services. In particular, the Ministry will complete the incorporation of all public prosecutors from other law enforcement agencies such as Immigration Department, Police Service, Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) and Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC), into the National Prosecution Authority (NPA). This is in order to enhance coordination and effectiveness in the provision of prosecution services. To facilitate this decision, the Ministry requests this House to approve K68 million which has been requested in the budget for 2018.

Mr Chairperson, the Government will also operationalise the electronic case flow management system among key criminal justice institutions in the country that include, the Zambia Police Service, Zambia Correctional Service, NPA, Legal Aid Board and indeed, the Judiciary. A provision of K2.8 million has been requested to facilitate the implementation of this intervention.

ENHANCING ACCESS TO JUSTICE FOR ALL

Mr Chairperson, allow me to move to the third intervention area which is enhancing access to justice for all. The Government will continue to strengthen the capacities of institutions within the legal and justice sector to ensure that a number of challenges such as the backlog of cases, congestion in prisons, inadequate legal representation, inadequacies in the capacities of judicial systems and limited issuance of police bonds are addressed.

In this regard, the Government will update the draft Legal Aid Policy to serve as a framework to guide the provision of legal aid services by Civil Society organisations and community-based organisations. Further, the Government will continue to strengthen the capacity of the Legal Aid Board by decentralising it to more districts and implement the harmonised conditions of service to attract and retain legal personnel. Further, the Government will undertake sensitisation programmes aimed at enlightening the public, particularly women and vulnerable groups about the options available for them to access justice.

In view of this, I am, on behalf of the Ministry, requesting this House to approve K19,460,500 for the 2018 budget for operations and programme implementation for the Legal Aid Board. In addition, a provision of K2,589,450 million is being requested to go directly to the Legal Aid Fund.

The Ministry has continued to collaborate with stakeholders in the legal and justice sectors in the country with regard to promoting interventions aimed at enhancing access to justice for all. One such innovative intervention is the setting of legal services units in strategic institutions such as courts and correctional facilities under the Programme for Legal Empowerment and Enhanced Justice Delivery in Zambia (PLEED). This project, which is being piloted in three provinces namely, Copperbelt, Lusaka and Southern, has seen the establishment of five legal service units so far in 2017 alone.

Mr Chairperson, the legal services units have been set up in the following districts and institutions respectively; Livingstone - Livingstone Magistrates Court; Choma - Choma Magistrate Court and Choma Correctional Facility; Mazabuka - Mazabuka Correctional Facility; Chingola - Chingola Magistrates Court; and Kitwe - Kitwe Magistrates Court. The programme has provided legal empowerment to inmates and enhances their access to justice through the provision of legal services and representation in the courts of law.

It is the intention of the ministry, working in collaboration with stakeholders, that this blue print project whose benefits are already visible in its infancy, will be scaled up during the period 2018.

Sir, one of the statutory bodies under the Ministry of Justices is the Judicial Complaints Authority (JCA). The core business of the Judicial Complaints Authority is to receive and investigate complaints made against judges, judicial officers and the Director of Public Prosecutions. This year, the Commission received a total of 123 complaints.

Mr Chairperson, Government will continue strengthening the administrative and legislative provisions of the Judicial Complaints Authority to enhance the discharge of its mandate. In 2018, the ministry has proposed to increase the allocation to the Authority by 5 per cent.

Sir, the ministry is concerned with low awareness levels on the functions of the administrator general and official receiver particularly on the administration of the states of persons. This has left many families in destitution and in worst cases has resulted in loss of life. The ministry will enhance the capacity of the administrator general and official receiver strengthening partnerships with stakeholders in order to scale up the implementation of the communication strategy to enhance community awareness levels on the importance of preparation and execution of wills in accordance with the law. K79,000 is being requested for community sensitisation on wills.

Sir, as I conclude on this intervention, I would like to speak about the Zambia Institute of Advanced Legal Education (ZIALE), which is one of the grant aided institutions under the Ministry of Justice. This institution plays a key role in the dispensation of justice. However, Government is aware of the numerous concerns on the low pass rate at ZIALE. This has limited the access to legal services by our people. It is, therefore, Government’s desire to ensure that legal services and to the highest quality are accessed by everyone. My ministry working in consultation with various stakeholders is considering ways of improving the pass rate of advocates at ZIALE in order to have enhanced access to justice. A total of K5.2 million is being requested in the 2018 Budget to facilitate operations and capital projects at ZIALE.

As I conclude, Sir, allow me to reflect on the promotion of consultative and inclusive democratic platforms.

Mr Chairperson, during 2018 to 2020 medium term period, Government will continue supporting the Zambia Centre for Inter-party Dialogue (ZCID) in order for it to discharge its functions of promoting good governance. For instance, ZCID played a key role in the development of the Political Parties Bill, 2017 through stakeholder engagement. This is in line with Pillar 5 of the 7^th NDP, Development Outcome No. 3 on enhancement of inclusive democratic systems of governance.

This is one of the deliberate interventions the Patriotic Front (PF) Government has embraced in the area of governance and administration to strengthen processes and systems that allow citizens to participate in the country’s governance. This is vital for consolidating and strengthening the democratic process and institutions in the country. I, therefore, call upon this august House to support the ministry’s proposed allocation of K1 million to the Zambia Centre for Inter-party Dialogue.

Mr Chairperson, the final intervention area that I would like to speak to is the preparation of the state of governance report. In 2017, the ministry commenced the process for production of the state of governance report. Government has allocated K250,000 in the 2018 Budget towards this process. The ministry is committed to producing the state of governance report every four years, but has not been able to do so in the past due to various constraints. The report, Mr Chairperson, is very important as it is a barometer of the state of governance of our country.

In conclusion, Mr Chairperson, I would wish to emphasise that during the coming period, the ministry has prioritised allocation of funds to programmes whose implementation would contribute to the enhancement of a conducive governance environment for a diversified and inclusive economy as espoused in Pillar Five of the7th NDP.

It is, therefore, my sincere hope and appeal that this august House shall consider supporting the approval of the proposed Estimates of Expenditure for 2018, for the Ministry of Justice. Sir, I submit for the approval of this august House.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Thank you, Mr Chairperson, I will be very brief.

Firstly, I wish to start by thanking the hon. Minister for his policy statement. We have no option, but to support the Vote for the Ministry of Justice, but allow me to make a few observations by stating that the Minister knows very well, as much as I do, that justice delayed is justice denied.

Sir, the justice delivery system in this country has gone from bad to worse. During the course of this ten minute intervention, I am going to demonstrate why I think so. Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister has given us floral and flamboyant words, the intentions and policy of Government, but these can only be actualised if, and only if, they walk the talk.

Good governance is something that he mentioned, but, I would like to put it to him that there is nothing he can call good governance when there is no respect for human rights and freedoms. I will give examples so that the Minister does not argue when his time comes to deliver his winding up statement. In this country, unfortunately, the doctrine of the presumption of innocence until one is proven guilty has been washed away in Zambia.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Instead, it is vice versa that one is actually guilty and it is now up to that person to go to court of law to be proved innocent. What has gone wrong? Is it the bad laws that we have or is it the bad individuals who are implementing the laws? I put it to you that it is the latter, Mr Chairperson.

The law has been in existence for a very long time. Therefore, depending on who is implementing this law, a governance system can be perceived or viewed to be either good or bad. Now, under the Patriotic Front (PF), the justice delivery system is under bad rating according to me.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, there is a breakdown of the criminal justice system in this country and I will give examples. The examples that I will give are living examples of how people who were supposed to compliment the Ministry of Justice by doing the right things are doing wrong things. For instance, we know that in Zambia you can be arrested even before an investigation is conducted.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ngulube: You blocked the motorcade!

Mr Nkombo: Fortunately, I would like to pay tribute to the judicial system in this country because it is the courts, through their judgments, who have found people innocent because there was a lapse due to the fact that somebody arrested another without conducting due investigation. In this case, I am referring to one Sir Hakainde Hichilema’s arrest.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Ms Kapata: Motorcade!

Mr Ngulube: Hard Talk!

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, Sir Hakainde Hichilema ...

Hon. Government Members: Sir?

Mr Nkombo: ... was acquitted on the case of using insulting language and the judgment is there for everyone who has been in classroom walls to read. When you read that judgment, you cannot be proud to be a Zambian. It is a clear case of disjointed police submissions. I assume that the Ministry of Justice is supposed to be in constant communication with the implementing agency, the police, so that these embarrassments can stop forthwith.

Mr Chairperson, I started by saying that the justice delivery system in this country has broken down and now the criminal justice system has also broken down and respect of the rule of law no longer exists. As we sit to debate here, I would like to remind the House that some hon. Members who are serving Ministers were found wanting by the Constitutional Court for insisting on staying in office against the provision of the law.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Nkombo: The Constitutional Court made a judgment to the effect that it was wrong for them to remain in office after dissolution of Parliament because they were only hon. Ministers because they were hon. Members of Parliament.

Mr Ngulube: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Nkombo: It is also clear ...

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Member, the issue you are referring to is still active in the courts. I advise that we stay away from that because the case is still in court.

Mr Nkombo: I receive your guidance.

Mr Chairperson, I recall that when we were removing President Rupiah Banda’s immunity in this august House, we were told by the hon. Mr Speaker that Parliament has unique powers to make certain decisions and, therefore, some of these things may be deemed sub judice. However, I want to make the point that these hon. Ministers were ordered to pay back the money. Now, tell me whether or not the issue of them paying back the money is still a contention in the courts of law.

Mr Ngulube: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Nkombo: Some of the people that are guilty of that offence ...

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Member, I think I have guided. The case is in court. The hon. Ministers have appealed and when the case is disposed of, I am sure they will follow the judgement.

Mr Nkombo: I take your counsel. I will move on.

Mr Chairperson, the issue at hand here is the act of ignoring judgments and the act of ignoring court rulings. This matter I am bringing up now is definitely not in court.

Mr Chairperson, during the incarceration of Sir Hakainde Hichilema ..

Hon. Government Members: Sir?

Mr Nkombo: To me he is a Sir.

Mr Chilangwa: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: I will not allow a point of order.

Interruptions

Mr Nkombo: During the incarceration of Sir Hakainde Hichilema, Justice Irene Wushimanga made a ruling that Sir Hakainde Hichilema be kept at Chimbokaila for him to have access to the courts anytime the courts wanted him.

Mr Ngulube: Eh ma prisoners!

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: Against the court ruling of Justice Wushimanga, Sir Hakainde Hichilema was bundled like a cheap criminal into a helicopter and taken to Mukobeko.

Mr Musonda: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Nkombo: That court judgment is a living document. What I am trying to say is that you cannot allow Dracula to be the head of the blood bank, which means that you cannot give custody to someone to deal with laws when they break the laws themselves.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Musonda: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: I am sure it is clear that I will not allow points of order for now. I expect hon. Members on my right to take note so that they can respond when time comes. What is important are those who listening to Parliament out there. Hon. Member, sit down.

Mr Musonda remained standing.

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Member, I have not allowed you to make a point of order, sit down.

Interruptions

Mr Musonda remained standing.

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Member, I will send you out. I have ordered you to sit down.

Hon. Members, we are all aware that the title ‘Sir’ is given by the Queen.

Mr Sing’ombe: We do not know.

Interruptions

Hon. Government Members: Hard Talk!

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, the word ‘Sir’ to me is just a prefix of respect. I respect the man so much so give me the liberty to call him Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

Mr Nkombo: I have just been assaulted here by an hon. Member who was pointing a finger at me. It would be very kind for those who know me well to caution this Member ...

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mr Musonda rose.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Member, I have cautioned the hon. Member and warned him that he risks going out. Do not refer to it again because I have ruled.

Mr Nkombo: There is wisdom in knowing that dynamite comes in small packages. Regardless of how big your torso is, David dropped Goliath.

Mr Musonda interjected.

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Member, just continue with your debate, I am following you.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, I am sure that you aware that the President of the Green Party, Sir Sinkamba, took this matter of the conduct of the Constitutional Court to the Judicial Complaints Authority, which the hon. Minister made reference to ...

Mr Musonda interjected.

Mr Nkombo: I am ready if you ...

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Members on my far left, there is too much consultation.

Hon. Opposition Members: Tutwa!

The Deputy Chairperson: Can Hon. Ngulube go back to his seat.

Mr Ngulube returned to his seat.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Member, continue.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, my point is simple. There are laws and then there are men. Unfortunately, laws cannot operationalise themselves. It is men who operationalise the law. What is bad, is it the law or the men? I put it to you that in this particular case, under the PF, it is the men who are bad.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, after Sir Sinkamba, the President of the Green Party, took the matter of the Constitutional Court to the Judicial Complaints Authority. Those who have eyes to read have read what the authority said. Professor Mvunga and Madam Zaloumis requised themselves while the rest who remained, and I mean people of high integrity met ...

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1810 hours until 1830 hours.

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, before we went on break, I was speaking about the Judicial Complaints Authority which the minister alluded to in his policy statement and I just have three quick points which I want to make as I come to the end of my discourse. I agree that the Judicial Complaints Authority must be given more funding because they are doing a good job.

Mr Chairperson, as you know, the courts have always been perceived or they are actually, sacrosanct. If men in the rob stand to make a judgment and this authority is bound to oversee the etiquette and genuineness of the judgments that they deliver, such as what they did in the Sinkamba case, then they deserve to be funded. They deserve to be capacitated because that is a valve which is providing a checklist. Let me rest my case on the Judicial Complaints Authority and may be bring the argument closer to home, where we are.

Mr Chairperson, with regards to the Constitution, of course, the hon. Minister, in his policy statement made a very faint comment, and I call it faint comment because I did not see the emphasis in the Constitutional amendments of this document that we have. I think we all agreed, Hon. Given Lubinda that this document is still raw, but because of dynamism of society, it is our duty again, right at the epicenter of our function, that we should develop this Constitution. Be it as it may, this same Constitution has not been respected by this Executive. I will give you reference to Article 103 of this Constitution …

Mr Ngulube: Question!

Mr Nkombo: …and I am sure the jungle lawyer knows which way I am going.

Laughter

Mr Ngulube: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hon. Member, take your seat. I will only request the hon. Member to withdraw the word, “jungle lawyer.”

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, I withdraw.

Mr Chairperson, what I was trying to point out is that Article 103 is complimented by Article 105 of the Constitution. Those who have time can read it. Article 103 has provisions in this particular book which is supposed to be our Bible of this country, and it states that when there is a petition of a President, what is supposed to happen is that the instruments of the Executive power must shift from the incumbent President who was a subject of an election to the Hon. Mr Speaker. We know very well that in this country, …

Interruptions

Mr Nkombo: It is written in this book, unless the jungle has come to us now.

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Member I guided on that.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, I am not talking about the lawyer now. I am just talking about the jungle. I am saying that the jungle could have come here to engulf the lawyer.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, there is a document here which we must all refer to and understand. My point is why we do not respect the rule of law. We should respect the rule of law because this is the law that we made for ourselves. Clearly, in my own understanding, even though it may be wrong, I think that during the petition, the Hon. Mr Speaker should have taken the Executive functions.

Interruptions

Mr Nkombo: Sir, the only thing that the Speaker was not allowed to do was to conduct appointments, disappointments and dissolve Parliament. Now, there is also in this Constitution, Hon. Given Lubinda, the provision for the Parliamentary Service Commission. We have lamented time and time again that it is time we operationalise this Parliamentary Service Commission so that we can run our own affairs. As it is, we operate as if we are just an appendage of the Executive. I think we should move along side with each other. It is two years now, since this Government had a function at Heroes Stadium, where they assembled to celebrate this document. I think this document is due for change.

Mr Speaker, finally, I think that I must make a plea to you, that as I end my debate, just the way you see me, I am a harmless human being and I just speak my ideas. Therefore, when people start pointing fingers at me of which I take great exception, I then ask them a question to say, “Look, are you chewing a brick or you are talking to me because either way, you may lose your teeth.”

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter

Mrs Chonya (Kafue): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to say something on the vote for the Ministry of Justice. Let me also appreciate the debate that our very capable Whip has just put before us, …

Mr Ngulube: Question!

Mrs Chonya: …which has made my work very easy because he has made some very good highlights of how this ministry, which was supposed to be helping us with ensuring justice has actually allowed injustice to go on without being abated. Having said that, I also want to add a few examples of how this ministry can do better to serve us as Zambians.

Mr Chairperson, firstly, I want to talk about the aspect of ratification and domestication of international instruments. The Ministry of Justice has indicated intentions in that direction, but unfortunately, they have paid a lot of lip service to this. I am saying so because we have actually seen very little progress on the ground. I have in mind the issue of for instance, the domestication and legislation of gender protocols so that we begin to see a movement of women into decision-making positions, even in Parliament.

Mr Chairperson, I want to talk about this issue so that as women, we are supported by our gentlemen in this House to avoid being accused of keeping quiet as if we have already reached our goals. No, we have not because we have a minimal percentage of women sitting in this House and elsewhere, in terms of decision-making positions. We know that if we have a lot of women in decision-making processes, we will see a lot of progress in the development of this country. This ministry will do well to help us ensure that we begin to register progress in that regard.

Mr Chairperson, not too long ago, I interacted with our colleagues from the Parliament of Zimbabwe. I was surprised that just across the Zambezi River in Zimbabwe, they have actually adopted a quota of women representation in Parliament. They were actually surprised that in Zambia, we just have a minimal percentage of women representation in Parliament. Sadly, I happened to have been the only woman on the delegation. They really wanted to know what the problem is in this country.

Mr Chairperson, this ministry is supposed to be very instrumental in making various reforms that are supposed to ensure that our governance process does not come to contestation under contestation. Here, I am talking about the electoral reforms, which should ensure that in the next elections, we do not witness what we experienced in the last election, where, the will of the people clearly seemed to have been suppressed.

Interruptions

Mrs Chonya: Mr Chairperson, we want to have free and fair elections. We want this country to continue having free and fair elections for that is the only way we are going to maintain peace.

Mr Ngulube: Question!

Mrs Chonya: Mr Chairperson, thanks to the hon. Mr Speaker, he sent me to a conference recently, where we were talking about the African Union (AU) Agenda 2063. We were talking about silencing the guns. It was agreed at that conference and one of the resolutions was that countries must have elections that are free and fair so that we are not going to start having sounds of guns where we initially had peace. This is a very important issue that the ministry of Justice should take into account.

Mr Livune: That is right.

Mrs Chonya: Sir, due to the events that our Whip described, I came to appreciate the difficulties that we have with the justice delivery system in our country. I felt very sorry and very bad…

Mr Ngulube: Question!

Mrs Chonya: ...first of all, for those people who cannot afford to have their cases heard quickly because, perhaps of their prominence, and because they would have been insufficient grounds to prosecute, they are lucky to walk away on a nolle prosequi. I am talking about the silent majority of this country, the people that do not enjoy that prominence, who are rotting in jail because they cannot face justice, they have been detained without trial and we are boasting that we respect the rule of law as a country.

I would have expected us, Mr Chairperson, to be moving with our Constitutional reform and all other reforms, which I have already alluded to, so that we demonstrate our sovereignty that we always boast about as a nation, without waiting for outsiders to help move this issue of Constitutional and electoral reform. I am saying this because very soon we will have another cycle of elections and these processes need a lot of time to be concluded. We do not want to have another situation where people will be passing the Constitution at midnight while others are sleeping in their seats. After a period of two months, we started seeing inadequacies and weaknesses in our Constitution. We started talking about another reform which will been a very costly exercise for the country.

Mr Ngulube: You won the Referendum.

Mrs Chonya: Mr Chairperson, yes, I was expecting to see this ministry re-visit the mistakes that could have been made for the Zambian people to vote against the Referendum. The Referendum question and the whole process was flawed, no wonder it did not win the support of Zambians. This ministry should have been in a hurry to start tackling the Referendum question because this is where issues of human rights and the enhancement of human rights are. As we are dealing with the Bill of Rights, we will be looking at important rights such as the right to food which is embedded in the Bill of Rights. If we do not begin to deal with the Bill of Rights, it means we shall continue carrying the embarrassment of being the third hungriest country in the world.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kapata: BBC

Mrs Chonya: Mr Chairperson, it is not nice to be labelled as a hungriest country in the world. This ministry has been talking about reforming the Public Order Act and even inviting submissions from stakeholders. At the same time, the ministry has indicated that people are not willing to come forth and make submissions to this process. I think it is time for this ministry to sit back and wonder why Zambians have not shown the enthusiasm to deal with the Public Order Act. I have made an indication in my previous submissions that Zambians are already clear with regards to the Public Order Act with what they want to see happening in this regard. If this ministry was serious about reforming the Public Order Act, they should have simply gone back to see what Zambians had said before because this time around they do not have anything new to say in relation to the Public Order Act. For us stakeholders, especially in the political arena, we are very clear that whenever we want to have a public meeting, all we need to do is give a notice to the police. Therefore, what do you want Zambians to come and tell you on what to put in the Public Order Act?

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

Mrs Chonya: Mr Chairperson, when Zambians are called upon to do something, they are very responsible and interested people. The Government saw that when they asked whether Zambia should continue sitting on the International Court of Justice or whatever that process was. Zambians came forth and gave their views. You all saw what the reaction was. Therefore, when we sit back it is because we are not seeing a genuine call for people to come and make submissions on the Public Order Act. The hon. Member who spoke before me has already alluded to the number of cases that drag before the courts of law. I am looking forward to a time when the Ministry of Justice will initiate legislation that will give some time frame within which court cases should be disposed off. Court cases cannot just go on and on leaving the whole process to the manipulation of the invisible hand that we saw during the time that Sir Hakainde Hichilema was facing trial.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. PF Members: Question!

Mr Ngulube: Drink water!

Mrs Chonya: Mr Chairperson, the other issue I want to highlight is the continued selective application of justice. This is the Ministry of Justice and it should be seen to be supporting a process where justice is applied without fear or favour across people of different classes. I want to give an example; I like to give best practice examples. In some country where I was privileged to go, not too long ago, the…

Mr Ngulube: Where was that?

Mrs Chonya: …the court system, even the Government system, was triggered with just public outcry over some matter. It is only here in Zambia where we wait even when the public is crying over an injustice. We even challenge people to bring evidence. Where good governance is the talk of the day, we would expect the system to be able to deal with cases of corruption like my colleagues have already alluded to. We all know the evils of corruption and how it has robbed us of the resources that we need to build schools we have been crying about year in year out.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Chonya: Mr Chairperson, corruption robs us of the resources that we need to feed the families that do not afford a meal per day, hence being labelled the third hungriest nation in the world. I am emphasising the issue of being the hungriest nation because it is an embarrassment in a country of plenty, like Zambia, where people are hard working and yet let down by people who are supposed to ensure that there is equitable distribution of resources. We are able to generate resources from our own means. We are able to finance our own budget as opposed to having a budget which is over 50 per cent foreign funded.

Mr Chairperson, I was very reluctant this year, this is the first time, if you note, that I am discussing the budget. I was very reluctant because last year, we passed a budget where we put in a lot for work only to have less than 30 per cent of the activities implemented. Therefore, what is the value of sitting here toiling and producing these big books at a heavy cost then at the end of the day, nothing in the budget happens.

Mr Chairperson, I only spoke because I am obligated to speak on behalf of the people of Kafue, but I hope that our friends on the ruling side will take the budget process serious and ensure that they mobilise resources in order to implement the Budget. However, the budget for the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs would not have been approved because they were not around to listen to the input of the people.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Chonya:They had to be recalled yet this is a very important aspect of our job as law makers.

With those remarks, I thank you, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Before Hon. Jere debates, I would like to state that I have a long list. Hon. Members, if you can stick to the main points as you debate, everyone will debate. We should also be mindful of the business on the Order Paper.

Mr Jere: Mr Chairperson, thank you for according me this opportunity to add my voice to the budget of the Ministry of Justice charged with the responsibility to facilitate the administration and promotion of justice and observance of the rule of law.

Mr Chairperson, indeed, a society has different kinds of people with different characters and backgrounds. Some are intellectuals and cultured, while others are not cultured at all and we expect conflicts in such a society. When these conflicts arise, justice must prevail and the law should settle the disputes. The million dollar question that we should ask ourselves fifty-three years after independence is whether or not access to justice in Zambia is attainable. The answer is no and I will give reasons.

Mr Chairperson, the population is growing. However, in the Yellow Book, only K2.6 million has been allocated to infrastructure development yet the Government increased the number of districts in this country. There are now 113 districts, therefore, the Government should construct court rooms and complexes in the new districts. However, the contracts have that been awarded are for the construction of only post offices, civic centres and housing units hence neglecting access to justice.

Mr Chairperson, in countries like South Africa, have put up departments in most provinces so that people can have access to justice. Therefore, the Office of the Director of Public Prosecution (DPP) has departments in Johannesburg, Pretoria and Cape Town. However, in Zambia, the office is centralised and when people are locked up in police cells, they spend years in there until they receive instructions from the DPP and this should not be the case. They have been talking about decentralisation and they should put up infrastructure.

Mr Chairperson, the issue of the Zambia Institute of Advanced Legal Education (ZIALE) cannot be overemphasised. Indeed, it is sad to note that the hon. Minister stated that only one legal officer deals with civil litigation. He has to deal with 400 cases, which is too much, and this is due to the bureaucracy at the ZIALE. Last year, we proposed and made suggestions of what can be done to improve the pass mark at the ZIALE. However, it is shocking because this year’s results were worse and only sixteen students were admitted to the Bar out of 238 who sat for the examinations.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Allow the hon. Member to debate.

Mr Jere: Mr Chairperson, this simply shows that there is something wrong at the ZIALE.

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

Mr Jere: The Attorney General is the ZIALE Board Chairman and I see no reason he should continue chairing it. He should resign on moral grounds and be retired in national interest the same way they have been retiring innocent …

Mr Ngulube: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Ngulube, your name is on my list and you can wait for your turn to respond.

Mr Jere: Mr Chairperson, thank you very much for the protection.

Mr Ngulube: Hear, hear!

Mr Jere: I was saying that the number of students who passed this year is even lower than last year. This is the reason the hon. Minister stated that they only managed to recruit twenty-one legal practitioners in the Legal Aid. This is a drop in the ocean considering the growing population. In the quest to decentralise and increase access to justice, they should have employed about 200 practitioners. However, when we divide twenty-one by ten provinces, it means each province will only have two practitioners and they will not add value because people are in dire need of speedy and fair justice. At the end of the day, they are overloaded and this is the reason most cases are adjourned. They are usually not ready because they need to research each client’s case and have to represent about four or five clients in court per day.

Mr Chairperson, that is the reason we proposed that the Patriotic Front (PF) Government should expand the ZIALE. If they did that and employed more lecturers, the students would have more time to interact with the lecturers. However, they are currently not able to do that because they are crowded. If you went on a fact finding mission, you would be shocked to see the state of the institution. Therefore, it is high time the Government built modern schools in Zambia and rehabilitate the ZIALE, so that more lecturers can be employed.

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister promised to bring to this august House, the Constitution (Amendment) Bill by the end of August. All of us were prepared and ready to look at the many lacunas that are in the Constitution. The previous speaker even stated that there are many articles in the current Constitution which should be reviewed.

Hon. Members of Parliament are supposed to be the first to respect the rule of law. However, what is happening is that judgments are being passed, yet we fail to respect them. What is a common person going to do? No wonder we have gone back to survival of the fittest where a cadre has become more powerful than any citizen of this country, including law enforcement agencies. When a judge or magistrate passes judgment in court, he is threatened by cadres. It is as if now the cadres have suspended the Constitution. I say so because of the so many lacunas in our Constitution.

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister of Justice has to ensure that before the end of this year, he brings amendments to the Constitution so that we can seal the loopholes and be able to move as one.

Sir, there is too much wasting of resources in this ministry. My colleague, who has just debated, talked about whether or not we should remain in the ICC. Indeed, the people in this House debated that and advised the Government not to undertake a failed mission. However, the Government went ahead and spent a lot of money going to thirty-one districts and getting views from people. Tax payers’ money was spent for nothing. If that money was channeled to infrastructure development, standards of the lower courts would have improved. The lower court justices are operating under very difficult conditions. If you look at the court rooms where they are operating from, you will laugh. Even the sitting arrangement makes you wonder if that is truly a Government building. This is money that should have been channeled to improving the local courts. The local courts in Zambia need a complete overhaul. We need to build proper local courts so that people attending court can sit comfortably. It is not easy for someone who is facing trumped up charges to sit squeezed in between other people and be able to give proper evidence in court. The environment is not conducive. It is very hot, especially during the hot season and people sweat terribly including the judges. These are some of the issues that need to be looked at.

With these few words, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalila (Lukulu East): Mr Chairperson, I will be extremely brief given the paucity of time and the multiplicity of colleagues who wish to render an opinion on the Ministry of Justice Vote.

Sir, I would like to begin by supporting the Vote, given the importance of justice in any society. My debate is basically on two fronts. Firstly, it is on the central role that the Ministry of Justice plays with regard to legislative drafting. As Member of Parliament, I have been concerned, especially in the immediate past, that there have been few laws that we have been making in this House.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Members on my far right, I think that your consultations are too loud.

Dr Kalila: Mr Chairperson, I was just saying that as a Member of Parliament, I am concerned at the fact that we are making very few laws. The legislative function of any parliament is sacrosanct and indeed, I have noticed that very few laws are coming on the Floor of this House. There was a time I began to believe that we were merely here to listen to ministerial statements and also participate in questions for oral answer day in day out. In our interactions in the Committee systems and anywhere else, we began to be informed that, in fact, most of the pieces of legislation that should have come through this Floor are marooned at the Ministry of Justice. This is why I thought I should render an opinion to the hon. Minister of Justice and ask him to kindly let us know what exactly the problem is and why most of these pieces of legislation are marooned at his ministry or why they are taking too long to be dispensed with and brought to this august House. I do not know if it is a question of capacities or overload, but I am sure it is within the powers of the hon. Minister to inform us what he intends to do about this. We cannot just be called legislators who do not make any laws simply because laws are stuck at the Ministry of Justice. It is a very important component of the process of making laws and I think that the ministry needs to jack up its standards in that regard.

Sir, the second point is the question of the African Peer Review Mechanism (APRM). I would like to believe that any process that enhances governance is very welcome. However, if it lacks a mechanism for enforcement, restitution and censure, then such a process is flawed in that those that are renegade states around the region, will obviously, continue along the lines of bad governance even if they have, within themselves, this process of peer reviewing.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to question its existence and whether it is really necessary to continue along a process that has no enforcement and no censure for those that are breaching the rules and practicing bad governance. If you cannot do anything about it, then what is the point of belonging to such a process? To me, it is a waste of resources and perhaps, we should review whether it is necessary or refine this process.

I thank you, Sir.

The Chairperson: That is excellent. The hon. Member spoke for four minutes.

Mr Ngulube: Ema doctors aya.

Mr Kabanda (Serenje): Mr Chairperson, thank you very much for according me an opportunity to add to the hon. Minister of Justice’s policy statement.

Sir, we are all aware that the laws that are being practiced in this country were inherited from the British colonialists. As you may be aware, the world has evolved over time. Therefore, we need to revisit these statutes in accordance with the evolving times. I do not want to buttress what Hon. Jere, Member of Parliament for Livingstone had said regarding the Zambian Institute of Advanced Legal Education (ZIALE), but I think that the hon. Minister had stated that we have very few lawyers in this country. As a result, many cases are being delayed, particularly cases of people who are not being defended. These people are made to languish in prisons because they cannot access legal aid facilities.

Mr Chairperson, what has gone wrong with ZIALE? I think that a Committee of this House had made several recommendations as regards what should be done at ZIALE. I do not know whether those recommendations have been adopted or not. I say so because the last time I looked at the pass rate at ZIALE, I noticed that it was slightly higher. However, in the recent past, I have observed that the pass rate has dropped considerably. I think that the ministry should seriously do something about ZIALE so that the number of lawyers in this country can increase. We do not want a few people to have access to justice.

His Excellency, the President, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, has, time and again, said that he wants an integrated approach to development where nobody is left behind. Equally, justice should be accessed by everyone, rich or poor. Therefore, we need to grow the number of graduates from ZIALE.

Mr Chairperson, ZIALE is a specialised training programme for lawyers. I do not see anything difficult about law practice. The theory that we learn at school is even harder than the practice itself. Therefore, why should the practice be harder than the theory? At ZIALE, lawyers learn how to approach the Bench, how to address the Bench, how to draft documents…

Ms Mwashingwele: And how to dress!

Mr Kabanda: …and how to dress? Is this what should make someone fail? I think that there is something seriously wrong at ZIALE.

Mr Chairperson, with regards to law reforms, most laws in our statutes have outlived their usefulness and require to be revisited. I will cite the Witchcraft Act. When a person names another person as a witch, the law will work against him or her. They have to justify it. How can one justify magic? When a magician falls at someone’s house and that person names them a witch, the law stipulates otherwise. The law says that he merely trespassed.

Mr Mwiimbu: The British Law!

Mr Kabanda: That is the British Law.

Mr Kambwili interjected.

Laughter

Mr Kabanda: If a naked person enters your house …

Laughter

Mr Kabanda: … the law says that he or she should not be cited as a witch, but mere trespasser.

Mr Chairperson, shall we continue to live with such laws in this day and age?

Ms Mwashingwele: No!

Mr Kabanda: Mr Chairperson, I think that more resources should be allocated to the Ministry of Justice. The state of the Zambia Correctional Service is deplorable. I know that the Government has started doing something about this deplorable state. It has put up a modern facility in Mwembezhi. However, I think that all prisons should be revisited so that we can have modern facilities. In this age of human rights, we have to look at individual rights. Any individual, whether accused of committing an offence or not, should not be held in an inhabitable place. An accused, even as he goes to court to answer charges, should come from a favourable environment.

Mr Chairperson, speedy dispensation of justice is important. The justice delivery system in this country is quite slow due to inadequate resources given to the Ministry of Justice. There are many times that transport will not be available to take accused persons to court. Sometimes it is the issue of not enough magistrates to hear matters. Why do we not revisit these matters? Previously, we would have a Standard 6 as magistrate. What is so difficult today to have ZIALE dropouts sit on the Bench and hear matters?

Laugher

Ms Mwashingwele: You are right!

Mr Kabanda: All we want is speedy delivery of justice. If a Standard 6 can be magistrate, how can a Law Degree holder who has failed the Bar at ZIALE fail to sit on the Bench and hear cases?

Mr Ngulube: Question!

Ms Mwashingwele: You are so right!

Mr Ngulube interjected.

Mr Kabanda: Mr Chairperson, I need your protection from Hon. Tutwa Ngulube.

The Deputy Chairperson: You are protected. Continue.

Mr Ngulube: Hear, hear!

Mr Kabanda: Mr Chairperson, I agree with most of the issues that the hon. Minister of Justice brought to the Floor of the House. I support the budget for his ministry.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for according this opportunity to raise a few issues in support of the budget of the Ministry of Justice.

Mr Chairperson, in a country where the justice system fails to operate adequately, chaos and bloodshed is bound. When people want justice, but instead of getting justice, they get oppression, then there is a problem. If people cannot get satisfaction from the courts of law, they will take the law into their own hands.

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

Dr Kambwili: When such things start happening in a country, know that you are heading for big problems. I want to urge my brother, colleague and friend, Hon. Lubinda, to take this opportunity and control and make things happen in this ministry.

Mr Chairperson, when there are too many acquittals and nolles at courts, it is either the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP) is inefficient or there is political interference.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kambwili: I believe that the young lady who holds this office has integrity and is eminently qualified and very capable of doing this job. What I see is political interference.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kambwili: If we do not fight this vice in the office of the DPP, we are inviting problems on ourselves. I think that it is unfair to take someone to court and, along the way, upon realising that a case is bad for state, opt for a nolle. Under a nolle, a person has no recourse to sue for compensation for unlawful detention or any other injury. This is a very unfair way of dispensing justice.

When you make a wrong decision, learn to bite the bullet and go all the way until judgment is passed by the courts. In the recent past, a lot of people who were arrested during the campaign period ended up with nolles. This is because along the way, there was some realisation that a mistake was made and it was a bad case. To treat your own citizens in such a manner is infringing on their rights because they have no recourse from the courts. Some of them were in detention for a whole year. I think that this must come to an end. I would like to urge Hon. Lubinda to bite the bullet and make sure that the right thing is done in the office of the DPP.

There are many times that the DPP advises on bad cases or cases that cannot be prosecuted successfully. However, there is political pressure because people want to save their necks. The office is told to go ahead and let the courts decide.

Then, when you see that you are losing the case, you opt to go for a nolle prosequis. It is embarrassing for the office holder to be losing cases like we have seen in the recent past. There have been a lot of acquittals. This simply means that there is something wrong. When the police or the prosecutors have a tight case, I do not think we can witness so many acquittals like it has been in the recent past. The Government should do the right thing?

Sir, just like my other colleagues have said, I want to agree with them that yes, cases take too long. This is because we have inadequate number judges and magistrates. We should see to it that we appoint more judges and employ more magistrates so that our people are not subjected to inhuman treatment in the correctional facilities, where they are detained pending trial because the facilities are not anything to talk about.

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister of Justice has said that the receiver of the Roan Antelope Mining Corporation of Zambia (RAMCOZ) falls under his ministry. When the hon. Minister comes to respond, I would like him to tell us what has happened on the issue of RAMCOZ in receivership. The Government undertook that they were going to pay the National Pension Scheme Authority (NAPSA) in order for NAPSA to pay the ex-employees of RAMCOZ. All the people, who were working under RAMCOZ have not been paid their NAPSA pensions from the time RAMCOZ was sold. The Government then, of the late President of F. T. J. Chiluba, took and responsibility that the Government would sort out both, the terminal benefits and all the pensions dues.

Sir, I have been to NAPSA several times to find out why the ex-employees of RAMCOZ have not been paid. The answer has been that they are waiting for the Government to pay them because RAMCOOZ was not remitting the money they were deducting from the employees to NAPSA. There was also an understanding between the Government and NAPSA that the Government was going to pay the U S $8 million, which was required in order for NAPSA to also liquidate the pensioners. This case has taken too long. Just imagine, this case has been going on from 1996, when RAMCOZ was sold to J. W Investment Company, but up now, people have not been paid their pensions.

Sir, many people have died and their children have stopped going to school because this money is till with the receiver of RAMCOZ. Personally, I have made attempts and I have met the administrator. She said they are waiting for money from the Government. The Government should please speed up liquidating this money so that the ex-miners can have a life. It is extremely disheartening that we have a Government, which has an obligation to pay the U S $8 million and yet, our people are languishing in poverty because Government has failed to meet its obligation.

Mr Chairperson, the same applies to Mpelembe Drilling employees, whose terminal benefits have not been paid. RAMCOZ owes class miners US $16. This is the money this company is supposed to pay as terminal benefits to its employees. Again, the receiver has not received this money in order for them to pay the terminal benefits. We are being unfair to our people.

Sir, going by the hon. Minister’s policy statement this afternoon, I am happy to hear that the tailing dams have been sold. Therefore, can we get that money and pay Mpelembe Drilling Company ex-employees. If it is possible, the Government can pay part of that money to NAPSA so that the people in Luanshya, Kitwe, Chingola, and Mufulira can again have a decent life. Suffice to say that Mpelembe Drilling Company was operating in almost all the towns on the Copperbelt. When you look at some these ex-employees, you cannot differentiate kuntanshi na kunuma because of the non-payment of their money. Actually, they are living in abject poverty. Therefore, could may we please, make sure that …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

What do you mean by kuntanshi na kunuma?

Dr Kambwili: Sir, it means in front and behind.

Laughter

Dr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, you cannot differentiate whether they are coming or they are going ...

Laughter

Dr Kambwili: … because of hunger, which has been inflicted by the failure of the Government to meet their obligations.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kambwili: Sir, the Government should release the money so that our brothers and sister can receive their dues.

Sir, I am happy the Ministry of Justice is doing something about the current Constitution. I must say that even if I was part of it, the current Constitution is a disaster. Therefore, it needs amendments very quickly.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kambwili: I was saying the current Constitution is a disaster. If I had my way, it should have not seen the light of the day because I regard it as a scandal.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kambwili: I know that people may say that I was part of it, but when we were having our party caucuses, …

Ms Lubezhi: Hear, hear!

Dr Kambwili: … people know what I said about the current Constitution.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kambwili: It has been a practice in the past that people might say that we are the people, who participated when they know what we said about this Constitution. It is because of not listening that we have found ourselves in this situation. Like the Bemba say; ‘Munshebwa, aile namashinshya kubuko’.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

What is the meaning?

Dr Kambwili: This means that he who does not get advice, ends up being embarrassed.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kambwili: We have to sort out the current Constitution because it has so many lacunas. No wonder the His Excellency, the President, told us to stay in office when the other part of the Constitution says, hon. Minister will not stay in office after the dissolution of Parliament. We know all these things. We are waiting for the Constitution to be amended. We must speed up this process because one day, we are going to be in problems?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kambwili: Sir, what is happening in Kenya might happen to us as well. The idea of copy and paste must come to an end. What has happened in Kenya should teach us a lesson.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kambwili: We should know that as we amend the current Constitution, we must do the right thing that is Zambian and not copy and paste.

Mr Musonda: Hammer! Hammer!

Dr Kambwili: Sir, I have been wondering because when I left Government, our debt burden was about US $8 billion. Today, it is about US $16 billion including the money that is owed to ex-miners.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kambwili: What puzzles my mind is that in the new Constitution, there is a provision that all the borrowings must first come to Parliament for approval. I am beginning to wonder whether it is by design that the Government is not bringing the Act to allow this provision of the law so that the Government can continue the illegal borrowing. Of course, I know that there is transition, but not on an important issue like this one. I do not think it should take one and half years to bring the Act for legislation.

The Government has been borrowing from the time the Constitution was passed. The Government owes another US $8 billion for ex-miners in one year without Parliament approval. It is for this reason that the people of Zambia are now saying that they are doing it deliberately. I may not be certain about the money. When the hon. Minister of Finance was talking about the debt burden when he was presenting the budget, he said something like US $14 billion. If that is true, it means that we have borrowed about U S $7 billion within one year, which should have been brought to Parliament for approval.

Sir, I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister of Justice to bring this piece of legislation so that this House can have a say and check Government’s borrowing.

Ms Lubezhi: Hear, hear!

Dr Kambwili: Sir, others may say I have started talking about the borrowing now and why was I not talking about it when I was in Government? I want to state that those, who were with me in Government then, know my stance on borrowing.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kambwili: They know very well. So, I do not want to hear people say why I am talking today because those who were with me in Cabinet know my stance.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kambwili: This kind of borrowing without Parliament approval is not good for good governance. Since we have a provision in the Constitution, let us actualise it so that this House can check the Government’s borrowing. Otherwise, with these few words, I support the budget line for the Ministry of Justice and I will always support the hon. Minister.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ngulube (Kabwe Central): Mr Chairperson, thank you for allowing me this opportunity to work a bit. I have heard several submissions and I want to make very brief comments on some of them because of lack of time.

First of all, I heard the lamentations from my brother, Hon. Jere from Livingstone, who actually talked about the Zambia Institute of Advanced Legal Education (ZIALE). As a person that passed through ZIALE, I think I am best suited to make my honest comments on what happens there. At least I passed and …

Mr Chabi: Are you a hon. Minister?

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, hon. Member! Let us listen to what happens at the Zambia Institute of Advanced Legal Education (ZIALE).

Mr Ngulube: Mr Chairperson, the training of lawyers in Zambia has become a business and a lot of people now think they can, for instance, run away from accounting where they have stolen people’s money and find themselves at ZIALE and still get a practicing certificate. We have heard how the Zambia Centre for Accountancy Studies (ZCAS), Zambia Institute of Chartered Accountants (ZICA) and all other professional bodies have actually become very strict when it comes to making people practice. Why should we dilute the practice of law? Simply because people’s children have failed and some hon. Members of Parliament fail to pass through ZIALE, then now we should say let us increase the pass rate? You do not increase the pass rate. People should just study hard and pass, full stop. There is no secret or magic.

Sir, the Government should not even make a mistake of diluting the standards at ZIALE. I am speaking as a legal practitioner, hon. Member of Parliament and person who owns a law firm and trains lawyers.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Mr Ngulube: Mr Chairperson, if some people who wake up and claim to be lawyers are enrolled at ZIALE, they cannot even write a letter. ZIALE is very strict because when we are unleashed into society, we would be handling people’s money, lives and marriages. Therefore, we should not hide in the name of ZIALE being this and that. I do not support all those people who are pointing fingers at ZIALE. In fact, ZIALE must become very strict. As a lawyer, I know that you cannot go to court with a yellow shirt.

Mr Mwale: Mwaona manje!

Mr Ngulube: People must be trained. Therefore, ZIALE must not water down all those strict provisions. The legal profession is a noble one and only those who deserve should actually enter it. For those who are not ready to follow the strict rules, please there are a lot other professions. They can go and become fishermen and no one will stop them.

Laughter

Mr Ngulube: They can also become farmers or join us on the streets and nothing will stop them!

Mr Chabi: Ule icindika mwaice iwe!

Mr Ngulube: Mr Chairperson, allow me this time to move away from the issue – Sorry, there is some brother of mine behind here who is disturbing me. I, however, forgive him because he was not born alive.

Laughter

Mr Ngulube: Mr Chairperson, we have a problem regarding the issue of local courts.

Mr Kambwili: Iwe Mazhandu, nomba ninshi afyelwe shani!

Laughter

Mr Ngulube: Every time we debate the issue of the Judiciary and Ministry of Justice, we forget the local courts. I come from Kabwe Central Constituency, where a local court was gutted by fire more than one year ago. This is the Katondo Local Court, which has a very wide catchment area. I am pleading with the hon. Minister of Justice to consider reconstructing the Katondo Local Court. A lot of women who face injustice in terms of intestacy, people wishing to get orders of appointment and people wanting to get at least a smell of justice are now trapped because from the time the Katondo Local Court was burnt, nobody has thought about repairing it. As the area hon. Member of Parliament, I pledge that from the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) component, we will make a contribution. Please, let the Government also, through the Ministry of Justice, do something so that at least next year we can have a local court to give justice to the people.

Mr Chairperson, allow me at this point in time to make a contribution on the issue of the Legal Aid Board and state advocates. From what I know, the Legal Aid Board is supposed to help the indigent, which means the poor. I am happy that I can see the director of the Legal Aid Board in the Public Gallery and I wish to state that …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Member, I think you know our rules. Do not debate those who are seated in the Public Galleries.

Mr Ngulube: Mr Chairperson, I wanted to make a compliment, but I withdraw the statement anyway. I am happy that as I am debating, I am even able to smile. Some people when they debate, it is like they are fighting with the Government. As for us, we even smile.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Member, can you just bring out your points. That is other people’s style of debating.

Mr Ngulube: Mr Chairperson, thank you for your guidance. We have heard several times how lawyers from the Legal Aid Board are now doing commercial cases. Lawyers from the Legal Aid Board are supposed to help in criminal cases in the High Court. By law, everybody is entitled to legal representation. The Legal Aid Board should actually do that, but now we are surprised to find the Legal Aid Board representing businesses and companies.

Sir, the Ministry of Justice is talking about access to justice for all. Therefore, let the Legal Aid Board restrict itself to what the law requires it to do. When we pass this budget for the Ministry of Justice, we expect that lawyers in the Legal Aid Board will dedicate all their time in helping the poor and needy. Let us also empower the Legal Aid Board by making sure it has enough transport. There have been situations whereby cases have been adjourned because the lawyers from the Legal Aid Board were not enough to split to travel to different sessions of the High Court.

Mr Chairperson, I also want to say that it is important that we strengthen the conditions of service for state advocates. We have heard that the Ministry of Justice has recruited about twenty-one new state advocates at the Attorney-General’s chambers. However, not long from now, we will hear that they have resigned and gone because they will see us fellow lawyers out there driving nice cars. When you were in the same class with your friend and then later see them driving a nice car or being driven to court, sometimes you get a bit of pressure. Let us find a way of giving state advocates incentives. I remember when I started work, we were better off than those that a started their careers with the Ministry of Justice.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Member, we do not debate ourselves.

Mr Ngulube: Mr Chairperson, I am giving an example of the conditions of services for lawyers. Most lawyers will go into the Ministry of Justice and will leave immediately they finish the first three year contract. We should better their conditions of service so that even those in the private practice are at least close to them so that we retain these lawyers.

Mr Chairperson, what I am saying is true. Those who are not lawyers will never understand the problems of the conditions of service in the legal profession.

Interruptions

Mr Chabi: You want all of us to be lawyers?

Mr Ngulube: The conditions of service relate to things like transport, allowances and so on and so forth. If you send a lawyer to Chipata and expect him/her to go and sleep in the car, it will be difficult for that lawyer to continue working for you. Therefore, if the conditions of service are not improved, the Ministry of Justice will be recruiting twenty-one new lawyers every year. By the time we get to December, 2018, we will have fourteen lawyers at the Attorney-General’s chamber. The others would have gone. Therefore, let us find a way of improving the conditions of service for state advocates so that all the departments can now receive enough lawyers.

Sir, we have also heard of the Attorney-General’s chambers being the most sued institution. On the other hand, each advocate has to handle 500 cases. How can one work effectively like that? The moment the advocate travels to Kitwe for a case, it means there is no one attending to his/her other cases. We need to support the Ministry of Justice in this regard.

Mr Chairperson, in conclusion, I noted that one of my brothers mentioned the issue of magistrates. Yes, we have a lot of lawyers now coming from the University of Zambia (UNZA) or other universities going through ZIALE and others spilling over to the bench. I am aware that a number of magistrates have attained the qualification of bachelor of laws or what is called LLB. However, they are complaining that there is no motivation. There are magistrates who have been trained and when they acquire their practicing certificate, the next thing they think about is to leave the Judiciary because they are looking for greener pastures.

Probably, we need to look at ways of strengthening the conditions of service in the Judiciary so that we can retain the available staff. It is very easy for us to keep the ones we have than to expect people to come from somewhere else and join the bench. It is not easy for a person who loves money like me to go and join the bench because they are already used to getting a lot of money.

Mr Chairperson, in conclusion, this is a very progressive Motion and I support it. I expect everybody who will speak to support it.

I thank you, Sir.

The Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Kampyongo): Mr Chairperson, thank you so much for giving me this opportunity to debate and support the Vote for the Ministry of Justice.

Sir, as you know, the Ministry of Justice and the Ministry of Home Affairs are like Siamese twins. In the scheme of dispensation of justice, we work closely and hand in hand.

Mr Chairperson, I have seen the new changes that have been put in place. Some of the law enforcement agencies used to prosecute cases directly. I am talking about the Zambia Police Service, Immigration Department and Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC). All these had their own prosecutors. After effecting an arrest and investigating a case, they would build a case and prosecute their own dockets.

However, in order to enhance accountability and oversight over other legal institutions, the National Prosecution Authority (NPA) is now mandated to prosecute all cases that are forward to it from law enforcement agencies. What this means is that those prosecutors in other law enforcement agencies were given the option to either remain in their institutions or move to NPA. If there are weaknesses in a docket, the person in charge at NPA will accept to take or not take a case.

There is no political interference in this process at all because as you know, there is no politician or hon. Minister who goes to stand in the dock. Therefore, there is no way an hon. Minister can order anyone to arrest or prosecute someone. It does not work that way.

Mr Lubinda: No it does not.

Mr Kampyongo: All those are just perceptions and innuendoes. I am shocked that hon. Members of this august House who are supposed to inform the public adequately are not doing so. These changes are supposed to be known by all of us in this Chamber. Therefore, to jump on an anthill and say that the Director of Public Prosecution (DPP) is working under the instructions of politicians is wrong and false. It is baseless. There must be sincerity in the way we debate.

Mr Chairperson, some hon. Members have said that there are too many acquittals. I think that shows how independent the Judiciary is.

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Mr Kampyongo: No one can go and ask a judge to write a judgement in a particular way. Judges know how important their judgments are, in terms of their credibility. How can someone say that there are so many acquittals? People engage lawyers who are competent so that they can get acquitted.

Mr Chairperson, the entering of a nolle prosequis is a provision under the law. Therefore, no one breaks the law when a matter is set aside through a nolle prosequis because it can be reopened later. In any case, this does not mean absolute freedom for the accused because it is not an acquittal. It is untrue to say that there is a higher authority that gives instructions for such a thing to happen. It does not work that way. Those who have got issues with the law should just make sure that they go through the due process. That is how it works.

Interruptions

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson I need your protection.

The Deputy Chairperson: You are protected. You may continue hon. Minister.

Mr Kampyongo: Sir, the hon. Minister of Justice and I, supported by the senior officers in our ministries, are looking for ways and means on how to deal with the work load. The pressure exerted on the limited spaces that are available in the correctional facilities is becoming unbearable.

When the hon. Member of Parliament for Roan was debating, he referred to poor correctional facilities. As Members of Parliament, I would advise that we must appreciate what the Government is doing in terms of constructing correctional facilities. This is the first Government that has ever opened doors to a new correctional facility …

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo: … fifty-three years after independence.

Previously, advocates of human rights reported year in and year out about the congestion …

Mr Lubinda: Yes!

Mr Kampyongo: … and over population in the correctional facilities. What was done to aid the situation at the time in those years? I suppose nothing was done. However, the PF Government, worked around the clock and opened a new correctional facility at Mwembeshi and moved inmates from Kabwe …

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Interruptions

Mr Kampyongo: You can say question, but we are talking about facts …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Kampyongo: That is why five years you cannot even answer …

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Minister, ignore those who are trying to disturb you.

Mr Kampyongo: Yes Mr Chairperson, that is why they did not make it to come to this side of the House.

The Deputy Chairperson: You may continue debating.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, these are practical issues we are dealing with and not paying lip service. Furthermore, we recently opened a new correctional facility in Monze.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo: We have also made efforts of decongesting the correctional facilities in Mazabuka and Livingstone.

Mr Sing’ombe: Aah!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo: Very soon, we are going to open another facility in Livingstone. All this is being done in a quest to provide humane conditions for those that transgress the law or have offended society. We are working in collaboration with the Minister of Justice in ensuring that only those that are supposed to be held in these correctional facilities are kept there, except for remandees who must not stay in these facilities for a long time. We are aware of this challenge.

I am sure hon. Members in this august House, must have seen my counterpart and I going on tours of duty with the technocrats and local brains, to visit these facilities and see for ourselves. This is in a quest to addressing these matters so that remandees do not stay unnecessarily longer in these facilities.

Mr Chairperson, on the issue of the Constitution, I would say that it baffles and shocks me at the same time when I see the level of hypocrisy that is exposed by hon. Members of Parliament in this august House. Sir, this Constitution …

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo: Sir, this document was not crafted by Patriotic Front Party (PF). Instead, this document was crafted by the people who contributed to the constitutional making process.

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Mr Kampyongo: It was called a people-driven Constitution. People went on different foras and made submissions that they did not want Members of Parliament to have an input in this document. Instead, the people wanted to work on the document word for word and later send it to the House. That is what happened in this country.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I am listening attentively.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, we had drama of the worst kind here when the people on your ...

Interruptions

Mr Kampyongo: Those who were not there should just listen because those who were here know what I am saying.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo: There was drama here. People were calling for a people-driven Constitution with no changes. They wanted it word for word.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kapata: They were seated there!

Mr Kampyongo: I even remember what Hon. Chishimba Kambwili was saying. Some of our colleagues were cowards and did not want certain things like 50%+1 in the Constitution because they felt it was dangerous. However, ...

Mr Syakalima: They were bribed.

Mr Kampyongo: ... we decided to give the people what they wanted so that they see if these things were going to work. Some people were of the view that some provisions were hardcore and could not be passed in their form, but we told them that the people wanted a Constitution the way they had given it us.

Mr Chairperson, I participated in the process, but I do not regret. We listened to the people for the first time like Pilate did. The President decided to give the people what they wanted to see if it would work.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Opposition Members: Pay back our money!

Mr Kampyongo: We as legislators were given an opportunity to look at the provisions of this document. I can see some faces of Opposition Members who we sat with for fourteen days crafting the report I presented when we were debating the Constitution. However, when it came to the House they started debating against what we came up with. It is hypocrisy.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, the people of Zambia must be wary about how we flip-flop. That is why they cannot even explain why they can lose five times.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Mr Kampyongo: What goes around comes around. Therefore, it is good that we have agreed that what the people wanted will not help them for too long.

Dr Kambwili: Walanda ichishinka.

Laughter

Mr Kampyongo: It is now our responsibility to remind the people that they elect us to scrutinise and make laws to govern the nation, but they did not trust us. They wanted to have an input even when they elected us to represent them. We could have abdicated our duties, but it was not the right thing to do.

Mr Chairperson, we knew what the Opposition was scheming. If we did not give them this document, we knew that they had printed heaps of t-shirts to go on the street and say the PF has failed to give the people a Constitution.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo: However, we beat them at their game and that it why we are in Government today. We can even go to BBC Hard Talk and tell them that we got back into Government because we gave people what they wanted.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Government: Hard Talk!

Mr Kampyongo: They cannot go to Hard Talk and say why they lost. They can only go to Prime TV or other local stations.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mr Lubinda: Lelo, lelo!

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, it is time to decide the way forward. I agree with my brother, the hon. Member for Roan, that instead of going back to what has been done, it is time for us as leaders to tell the people to allow us to do the job they elected us to do in this important legislative arm of Government. I will stand on terra firma that I do not regret participating on this because for once we listened to the people and gave them what they wanted.

Mr Livune: Pay back the money!

Mr Kampyongo: People were tired that day. They kept moving about and some even confessed that they had taken a bit of alcohol and so they did not have time to read the contents.

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Hammer!

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Kampyongo: That is why even the Articles that are straight forward ...

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

__________

HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

__________

The House adjourned at 1957 hours until 0900 hours on Friday, 3^rd November, 2017.

____________

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