DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE SECOND SESSION OF THE ELEVENTH ASSEMBLY

Friday, 21st June, 2013

   The House met at 0900 hours

[MR DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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ANNOUNCEMENTS BY MR DEPUTY SPEAKER

THE 3RD COMMONWEALTH WOMEN PARLIAMENTARIANS WORKSHOP (CWP) ON PROMOTING THE POLITICAL PARTICIPATION OF WOMEN IN THE CENTRAL AFRICA SUB-REGION

Mr Deputy Speaker: I wish to inform hon. Members that the National Assembly of Zambia will be hosting the 3rd Commonwealth Women Parliamentarians Workshop on “Promoting Political Participation of Women in the Central Africa Sub-Region” on 22nd and 23rd June, 2013, at Protea Hotel at Arcades in Lusaka. The workshop will bring together delegates from the parliaments of Malawi and Zambia, Secretary-Generals or representatives of major political parties from Malawi and Zambia and members of the civil society. The workshop is aimed at bringing together various stakeholders who are expected to map out strategies for improving the participation of women in the political arena. The workshop will be officially opened by Hon. Mkhondo Lungu, the Deputy Speaker of the National Assembly on Saturday, 22nd June, 2013. Therefore, female hon. Members and other hon. Members who have been invited are encouraged to attend this very important workshop.

AFRICA FREEDOM DAY COMMEMORATION FOOTBALL MATCH BETWEEN
HON. MEMBERS AND AFRICAN DIPLOMATS ACCREDITED TO ZAMBIA

Mr Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to inform the House that as part of the commemoration of the 50th Anniversary of the African Union (AU) and the African Freedom Day, a football match between the hon. Members of Parliament football team and the African diplomats accredited to Zambia was organised. The match took place on 24th May, 2013, at the Olympic Youth Development Centre (OYDC). The result of the game was: hon. Members of Parliament 3 -  African diplomats accredited to Zambia 2.

Following the deserved victory by the hon. Members of Parliament team, a trophy was awarded to the team on 28th May, 2013. May I take this opportunity to once again, congratulate the football team under the able leadership of the team captain, Hon. Kampyongo, for the victory.

I thank you.

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BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

The Vice-President (Dr Scott): Mr Speaker, on Tuesday, the 25th of June, 2013, the Business of the House will begin with Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any and, thereafter, the House will consider Motions to adopt the reports of the Committee on Communications, Transport, Works and Supply, and the Committee on Economic Affairs, Energy and Labour.

Mr Speaker, on Wednesday, the 26th of June, 2013, the Business of the House will begin with Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. The House will then consider Private Members’ Motions, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will consider the Motion to adopt the Report of the Committee on Information and Broadcasting Services.

Mr Speaker, on Thursday, the 27th of June, 2013, the Business of the House will commence with Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will consider Motions to adopt the reports of the following Committees:

(i)the Committee on National Security and Foreign Affairs; and

(ii)the Committee on Government Assurances.

Mr Speaker, on Friday, the 28th of June, 2013, the Business of the House will begin with His Honour the Vice-President’s Question Time, where I will answer Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by Questions to hon. Ministers, if there will be any. After that, the House will deal with the presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will consider a Motion to adopt the Report of the Committee on Youth and Sport and then the House will deal with any business that may be outstanding. 

Mr Speaker, I think the first order of business next week will be the taking of the Oath of Allegiance by the new hon. Member of Parliament for Feira.

I thank you, Sir.

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MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

THE SHOOTING INCIDENTS AT THE PREMIUM PLAZA POST OFFICE IN  NDOLA ON 12TH JUNE, 2013 AND AT THE ZAMBIA NATIONAL SERVICE AIRPORT FARM IN CHONGWE ON 14TH JUNE, 2013

The Minister of Home Affairs (Mr E. C. Lungu): Mr Speaker, I rise to issue a ministerial statement on the shooting incidents at the Premium Plaza Post Office in Ndola on the 12th of June, 2013, and at the Zambia National Service (ZNS) Airport Farm in Chongwe District on 14th June, 2013. This is as a result of the point of order raised by the hon. Member for Chembe, Hon. Mbulakulima.

Mr Speaker, the Government wishes to confirm that on 14th June, 2013, at the ZNS Farm, ... 

Interruptions

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

I am a bit uncomfortable with what the people on my right, at the back, are doing. The hon. Minister is making a statement. Please, keep quiet.

Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Speaker, the Government wishes to confirm that on 14th June, 2013, a shooting incident occurred at the ZNS Farm in Chongwe District in which two lives were lost and one person was injured. The Government deeply regrets the loss of those lives. It even sent its sincere condolences to the bereaved families.

Mr Speaker, you may wish to note that the problem at the ZNS Airport Farm is a long standing one. It dates as far back as 2010, when some members of the community in the Kampasa area illegally settled and encroached on land belonging to the ZNS. They consistently and continuously resisted eviction. The Government then had facilitated the allocation of 50 ha of land from the ZNS in liaison with the Chongwe District Council and the Ministry of Lands to settle the illegal settlers who had encroached on the ZNS land. However, initial attempts to have these people moved from the land were met with resistance. Subsequently, the Government suggested giving the illegal settlers 50 ha of land.

Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the House that two dockets for murder have been opened and investigations are currently going on at the Lusaka Division. Arrests in this matter have taken long because the case requires conducting an identification parade for the twenty or so ZNS officers who were involved in the shooting incident and also a postmortem report from the doctors after the autopsies are done. It also involves the examination of firearms involved in the shooting and other military processes.

Sir, the shooting incident arose when there was an attempt by the ZNS officers to remove the people from a piece of land after having given them due notice to vacate it. When the ZNS officers went to evict the squatters, they were overwhelmed by the numbers of the settlers who were about 300. As a result, the ZNS officers retreated, but were cornered. Unfortunately, it is during the same period that the shooting occurred. As of now, we have not established, indeed, who, actually, of the twenty or so ZNS officers did the shooting. That is why the police are currently conducting an investigation. Apart from that, in line with its rules and procedures, the ZNS has appointed a board of inquiry to find out what exactly happened.

Mr Speaker, the Government wishes to appeal to the people of Kampasa and the nation at large to remain calm as the matter is being probed. I wish to also state that the Government is concerned with the lawlessness and recklessness being exhibited by unscrupulous citizens who have been grabbing land indiscriminately in the name of political parties and this, I must say, is not what the Patriotic Front (PF) stands for.

Sir, the PF Government respects the rule of law and sanctity of property whether private …

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Mr E. C. Lungu:  Mr Speaker, I must repeat that the PF Government stands for the respect of the rule of law and the sanctity of ownership of property.

Interruptions 

Mr E. C. Lungu: Sir, my ministry will not allow anarchy to be the order of the day in this country.

Further, Mr Speaker, the Government wishes to confirm that on 12th June, 2013, a lady by the name of Ms Phylis Chifunda, aged thirty-three years, of Pamodzi Township in Ndola, was hit by a stray bullet at the Kansenshi Shopping Centre Premium Plaza Post Office in Ndola. 

A police officer at the scene discharged his AK 47 Rifle when a crowd of people that had gathered to purchase tickets for the weekend football match between Zambia and Sudan became uncontrollable. The police officer fired in the air to disperse or control the crowd. Unfortunately, he discharged a bullet which ricocheted after hitting the concrete roofing and deflected towards the victim who was part of the crowd.

Interruptions 

Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Speaker, an inquiry file has been opened and reports from officers at the scene are being compiled. However, I wish to inform the House that a docket has been opened while the investigation is awaiting doctors at the Ndola Central Hospital to sign the medical report. The officer who discharged the firearm is currently held in detention pending further investigations. The docket will be forwarded to the Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP) for further instructions as soon as the medical report is signed. The House may wish to further note that the victim’s condition is reported to be fair. She is still in hospital

Mr Speaker, let me emphasise that there is no shoot-on-sight or shoot-to-kill policy in this country and it will not be brought into effect by the PF Government.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the ministerial statement given by the hon. Minister.

Mr Mucheleka (Lubansenshi): Mr Speaker, who authorised the officers to go with live bullets to that area? In any case, it is possible that each of those officers were given a specific number of live bullets. This, therefore, can make it easy for each officer to account for those bullets. Those with a reduced number of bullets might be the ones responsible for the shooting …

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

You are making a statement. Please, hon. Members, make your interventions short.

May the hon. Minister respond, please.

Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Speaker, I have said that there are two parallel inquiries taking place regarding this matter. The ZNS Commandant informed me that they have established a board of inquiry. The Zambia Police Force is also carrying out its own investigations. We need to find out who authorised the shooting and why. We also need to find out when it happened and what exactly happened.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mbulakulima (Chembe): Mr Speaker, the coming into power of the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) in 1991, brought about a culture of a defined dress code as evidenced by the way you and I are dressed. The coming into power of the late former President Dr Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC., brought about a culture where the rule of law was cherished by every Zambian. The coming into power of the PF …

Interruptions

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Mr Mbulakulima: ... has brought about a culture of killing innocent individuals and beating up people.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

Laughter 

Mr Muntanga: Eating!

Mr Mbulakulima: Beating as witnessed in Matero.

Interruptions

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

Mr Mbulakulima: Sir, when will the PF Government shake off this culture of violence in order to bring in a culture of modern politics?

Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Speaker, the PF does not have the culture of violence. It is the members of the MMD and United Party for National Development (UPND) who are violent.

Interruptions 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Speaker, there is no basis for my believing that we are a violent lot. So, I think the question by Hon. Mbulakulima is misplaced because, as I have explained, the two shooting incidents did not involve PF members. They involved officers in the course of their duties under the Zambia Police Force and the ZNS. No one from the PF killed anybody. 

So, I do not see any basis for the questions by the hon. Members who want me to explain that the violence is allegedly being perpetrated by the PF.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister indicated that the sad incident took place at the ZNS Airport Farm. I would like to find out whether he is not aware that the particular piece of land that is under contention is also being claimed by the Galaun family. In fact, the Galaun family gave 20 hectares of land, through the Chongwe District Council and hon. Minister of Tourism and Art to the people in the area. That is where those people are settled. Is the Government considering the idea of carrying out investigations so as to identify the real owner of that particular piece of land because it does not belong to the ZNS?

Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Speaker, I do not want to be mixed up here because I know what I am talking about. The land in question belongs to the ZNS and it gave 50 ha of land to the community, like I said eloquently in my ministerial statement. 

Sir, 50 ha were surrendered to the community through the Chongwe District Council in liaison with the Ministry of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection. After sharing the 50 ha of land, the members of the community proceeded to encroach on the remaining 68 ha of land which is under the dominion of the ZNS. It is in the ZNS’s quest to protect these 68 ha of land that this incident arose. 

Mr Speaker, I am aware that lawyers know too much. Hon. Mwiimbu is probably handling the matter involving Mr Galaun. However, I wish to state that I am not privy to the information which he has shared with the House.

I thank you, Sir. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Mr Speaker, if I heard correctly, the hon. Minister said that land grabbing by political party members is very common. Which party members were involved in the Kampasa land-grabbing incident?

Mr Deputy Speaker: This request for ministerial statements …

Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Speaker, …

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

I am still talking. The way that we are conducting ourselves is not correct. This ministerial statement arose out of the fact that a request was made for it to be issued. The hon. Minister is capable of responding to questions. He does not need help from those of us who are making comments while seated.

Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Speaker, the land in question was encroached upon under the rule of the MMD. The MMD members grabbed this land from the ZNS and gave themselves plots which they began selling. The Government, at the time, found it reasonable to give the settlers 50 ha of the land in question. These hectares of land were not given under the PF, but the MMD Government. The PF came into power when the 50 ha of land had already been exhausted. Thus, a grouping of the MMD people, who transformed themselves into PF members, wanted to encroach on the land belonging to the ZNS. They said that the 50 ha of land was given under the MMD and that it was time for the members of the PF to enjoy. 

Sir, the Secretary-General of the PF is seated with us in this House. He disowned the people who were involved in the land-grabbing incident as not being PF officials. What happened was that they wanted to use more than the 50 ha which was allocated to the members of the community. They built an office which they referred to as a PF one upon the land which they encroached on. We refused to recognise that office. If they were PF members, do you think we would have gone ahead to evict them from that land? We would not have done so.

Laughter

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Speaker, I should be allowed to respond to a question which was asked.

Interruptions

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Speaker, I am giving a historical background. The encroachment of the land in question is part of the legacy of the MMD.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr E. C. Lungu: Sir, the MMD accommodated this transgression. The 50 ha of land, which used to belong to the ZNS, was given to the community under the MMD Government. When that land was exhausted, the MMD members transformed themselves into PF ones and tried to carry out construction works beyond the land which was allocated to the community. However, the PF Government has refused to condone such behaviour. The PF Government will disown this kind of conduct regardless of the political grouping to which the members perpetrating it belong to.

I thank you, Sir. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mufalali (Senanga Central): Mr Speaker, through you, let me ask the failing hon. Minister of Home Affairs a question.

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Mufalali: Mr Speaker, what guarantee can the hon. Minister give us that the officer who fired the live bullets will be arrested when his officers have failed to arrest the culprits who were caught on camera assaulting people in a church?

Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Speaker, I do not take kindly to personal attacks. I am not a failed or failing hon. Minister. I am very competent and equal to the task.

What we are talking about is the shooting in Ndola and the one in the Chongwe area near the airport farm. If he wants to ask me questions on the failure by the police to arrest the culprits in other incidents, then he should have filed a formal question or raised a point of order.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Katambo (Masaiti): Mr Speaker, firstly I would like to pass my sincere …

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I rise on a very serious point of order that borders on national interest, the security of the nation and lives of our people.

Mr Speaker, we have been informed, through the press, that Zambeef has been importing beef that contains very harmful chemicals that are a threat to the lives of our people.

Sir, we are all aware that Zambeef is a major supplier of beef in the country. I know that a lot of people, including some hon. Members, are customers of Zambeef. Yesterday, there was an article in The Post, which I do not have, which stated that Zambeef had imported dangerous beef from Britain. There is another article in today’s edition which is also talking about the same issue.

Sir, as I raise this point of order, I am aware that Zambeef is a major employer in this country and that whatever action will be taken will affect a lot of people. However, what should take precedence is securing the lives of our people. 

Mr Speaker, when and how did this malady by Zambeef start? Who authorised the importation of this beef? What measures has the Government been putting in place to ensure that any imported food items are scrutinised so as to ensure that the safety of Zambians is secured? 

Mr Speaker, as we speak, there is no guarantee that this particular beef has been withdrawn from the many Zambeef butcheries. We want to know the immediate measures the Government is taking to ensure that the lives of our people are protected. 

Further, we would like to know what specific action will be taken against Zambeef and the other companies which are supplying this toxic beef to Zambia if they are found wanting.

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, is the Government in order to remain silent on this issue? Some Government officials may have made statements outside this House, but as per the rules of this House, we will consider them as hearsay. They must inform this House as to what specific measures they are taking to protect the lives of the Zambian people. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Deputy Speaker: Can the hon. Minister of Health come up with a ministerial statement on that.

Mr Katambo: Mr Speaker, firstly, I would like to pass my sincere condolences to the families that lost their beloved ones in the shooting incident at Kampasa.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Katambo: Mr Speaker, is the Government considering relocating the 300 families who have been affected by this encroachment incident at Kampasa?

Mr Deputy Speaker: Before I allow the hon. Minister to respond, I wish to state that the hon. Minister of Health should come up with a ministerial statement in the course of next week regarding the Zambeef issue.

Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Speaker, I did mention that 50 ha of land was cut-off from the ZNS land and given to the community. This land is what was used to accommodate all the Kampasa community members who wanted land in that area. This land is, in fact, still available for these members of the community. What they have done is that they have gone beyond the 50 ha and have encroached on the remaining 68 ha of the ZNS land. I did make it very clear that in the quest by the ZNS to hold back or fend off the encroachers, this unfortunate incident occurred. There is no need for the Government to provide land to anybody affected by this incident because these people were allocated 50 ha of land for both settling and agricultural purposes.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Speaker, if I remember well, the question was about the PF members being violent, but the hon. Minister stated that it was, actually, the UPND members who were violent. I am not sure whether he mentioned the UPND because of the hatred he has for it or it was by mistake. I want him to clearly state which party members beat up Father Bwalya and the people at a church in Matero recently. Is he not aware of the different actions by his own party members? Since the hon. Minister of Home Affairs condones violence, is he going to continue accusing the UPND cadres of being violent? What I know is that, as hon. Minister of Home Affairs, he must correct the situation for the betterment of our country.

Mr V. Mwale (Chipangali): Mr Speaker, may I also join the hon. Member for Masaiti in passing my heartfelt condolences to the families that lost their beloved ones who were killed in a barbaric manner by a force that should be protecting this country. May I find out …

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Deputy Speaker:  A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member for Senanga, Hon. Mufalali referred to an incident which happened in Matero, where there was a political gathering at some church. 

Interruptions

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, as a ministry, we …

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order! 

One of the rules is that a point of order raised must be relevant to the business being handled on the Floor of the House at that point in time. Now, the hon. Deputy Minister is raising a point of order on a statement that was made some time ago. I will not allow it. Can you continue, Hon. V. Mwale.

Mr V. Mwale: Mr Speaker, when the PF was in the Opposition, it promised the people of Zambia that the security wings would never use live ammunition on the citizens of this country. The PF promised that it would procure rubber bullets to ensure that the security wings controlled crowd trouble in a peaceful manner and did not kill the citizens of this country. What has happened to that promise? Is it yet another bufi and unfulfilled promise just like the many other unfulfilled promises which were made by the PF during the campaign period?

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order! When we ask questions, let us go straight to the point. I am not sure whether the people out there understand the term, ‘bufi’.

Interruptions

Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Speaker, the acquisition of rubber bullets or live ammunition is an on-going process in the operations of the Zambia Police Force, ZNS and Zambia Army. Currently, on the Floor of the House, we are talking about two incidents. In the Ndola incident, the officer involved is from a protective unit. These are people who are deployed to guard public institutions such as banks and other utilities where we feel the use of live ammunition is in order in certain instances. On this particular day, people had queued in numbers to get tickets for the match between Zambia and Sudan. The officer whose job was simply to protect the banking services which were being extended to the public took it upon himself to help out at the place where the tickets were being sold because he thought those who were controlling the crowd there were overwhelmed by the presence of many people and other activities were being disrupted. Such people normally carry live ammunition. I do not think you would want to go and guard a bank with a rubber bullet. The people who were involved in the Chongwe shooting are the ZNS personnel. I am, in fact, going out of my way by venturing into details of their deployment, what types of arms they carry and what they do. What I know is that they were there to protect their property. When protecting their property, I do not know whether they are allowed to use live or rubber bullets. That is not for me to say.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Siliya (Petauke): Mr Speaker, we have seen …

Mr Muntanga: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, only factual information should be given on the Floor of this House. Is the hon. Minister of Home Affairs in order to give this House information that the UPND members are violent without providing the necessary facts? I am raising this point of order because what he said will remain on record.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Mr Speaker, at first, you had put what you have said in form of a question and I ignored it. Now, you have put it in a different context. You will realise that I did not want us to delve into that issue because of the complications that I foresaw. I still feel that we should avoid a debate on this matter. I will, therefore, not sustain that point of order. 

Can Hon. Siliya continue, please. 

Ms Siliya: Mr Speaker, we have recently seen an increase in violent behavior in this country. We can keep arguing that those perpetrating the violence are members of the MMD, PF or UPND without acknowledging the important fact that the violence is affecting ordinary citizens. Recently, we have seen that this behaviour is being exhibited even by those in the armed forces such as the Zambia Police Force and ZNS, who are supposed to be the most disciplined and are not supposed to be violent without authority when dealing with citizens. 

Sir, last week, a PF member, Bridget Atanga, said in a newspaper article that it did not matter whether the people perpetrating violence were PF members or common thugs. She said what mattered the most was that the police was failing to deal with the matter. In that regard, hon. Minister of Home Affairs, will you be willing to concede that yes, it is your responsibility to keep order in this country and to protect the citizens of this country? What we are seeing now is that the police are the ones involved in harming the citizens. When are you going to do as Bridget Atanga recommended, that you fire those who are indisciplined before people start calling for your own removal, hon. Minister of Home Affairs?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Speaker, the ZNS, by its nature, is a disciplined force. That is why I referred to the formation of a board of inquiry into the Chongwe matter. Whoever will be found wanting in that respect will be dealt with in accordance with the laws governing the ZNS. As for the matter involving the police, the officer who was involved has already been arrested and the investigations are on-going. I do not know what else I should do regarding these two situations in order to show the hon. Member of Parliament for Petauke, who is my sister, that we dealing with these issues. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Resign!

Mr E. C. Lungu: I will not resign …

Laughter

Mr E. C. Lungu: … on account of an allegation which cannot be substantiated. We are in control. There is maintenance of law and order. Wrongdoers are being brought to book. What is happening is that obviously, when things go wrong, out of emotions, people will say things which they did not intend to, but will quickly change their stance after soberly looking at the matters and applying the law. For those who are aggrieved, if they feel that we have not done what is expected of us, let them bring particular incidences to my attention and we will follow them up.

I thank you, Sir.

_________{mospagebreak}

HIS HONOUR THE VICE-PRESIDENT QUESTION TIME

Professor Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs has just acknowledged that he does not know what to do about the grave security situation in our country. Your Honour the Vice-President, what really are you doing to guarantee the safety of the citizens of this country, given the fact that your hon. Minister of Home Affairs does not know what to do?

Laughter

The Vice-President (Dr Scott): Mr Speaker, I was listening quite attentively to the answers which were being given by the hon. Minister to the questions coming from that side of the House. I never heard him say that he did not know what to do about the security of the people in Zambia.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

The Vice-President: We are running the Ministry of Home Affairs and its various components in a normal and civilised way. We are not making up stories. It is difficult to always keep peace amongst 13 million people, but we are doing our best. The hon. Minister of Home Affairs is doing a very good job.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

The Vice-President: I will strongly advise him not to resign, but to continue doing his job.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mushanga (Bwacha): Mr Speaker, can His Honour the Vice-President comment on the assertions by certain sections of society that the removal of subsides both on fuel and maize is a strategy by the Government to raise money for more by-elections to come.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the removal of subsidies is part of the general strategy to balance the books. The Government has to balance its books. If the Government does not balance its books, it will end up printing money or failing to meet the cost for essential services. When the sums are done, it is clear that …
 
Mr Mbulakulima: On a point of order, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Deputy Speaker: No, no, please. Let us continue.

The Vice-President: … we are losing a lot of money which is not getting into the right pockets. That is why we have removed those subsides. The effect of removing those subsides is that we have just won the Feira By-election with three and a half thousand votes. Our nearest opponent was the United Party for National Development (UPND) with less than 1,000 votes.

Hon. PF Member: Shame.

The Vice-President: After that, came the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) in the same coffin as the United National Independence Party (UNIP) …

Laughter

Hon. MMD Member: Question!

The Vice-President: … with a few votes in the hundreds and then the National Restoration Party (NAREP), which was claiming that we were intimidating it during the campaigns, with sixty-eight votes. In Kavalamanja, which is a village on the shores of the Zambezi River, we got more than 200 votes and our nearest rival, the UPND, got eight votes …

Laughter

The Vice-President: … despite so much having been said about our decision to remove the subsidies.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter

Mr Mweetwa (Choma Central): Mr Speaker, following the ministerial statement given by the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and the questions that arose, and the lack of seriousness in the nature of the answers that were given, …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mweetwa: … and now, His Honour the Vice-President, beginning to act as though he is the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ), instead of answering questions, …

Mr Chilangwa: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Mweetwa: … my question is: When is this Patriotic Front (PF) Government going to behave as a Ruling Party and come here with serious answers so that it can address the challenges that we are bringing here on behalf of the people of this country instead of continuing to politic as if it was still in the Opposition.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Now, let me say this. You see, our role as presiding officers is to ensure that we discuss the issues before us logically and orderly in order to also educate the people out there on the relevant issues before us. I have realised that we are now not doing what we are expected to do, both from my left and my right. I think, let us make use of this time for what it is meant for. You know, when you ask for a point of order, it is not a right that you should have it. Sometimes, we decide that you should not have it. If you find that I am not responding, then, it means I am saying that I am not allowing that point of order. So, can we be serious in our debates. I am not here to decide on what you should say and so on and so forth, but I will try as much as possible to ensure that the debate or whatever we are discussing is going on in a smooth and orderly manner. Let us not begin to fight battles in here that are supposed to be fought outside.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the question which has been posed by Hon. Mweetwa is like asking somebody if he has stopped beating his wife when he has not been doing so. So, I do not understand why I should be asked when I am going to be serious when responding to questions when I am already doing so.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Dr Kazonga (Vubwi): Mr Speaker, on at least two occasions, the former President of this country, Mr Rupiah Bwezani Banda, was blocked from travelling outside this country at Kenneth Kaunda International Airport. Is it the PF Government’s policy to stop the former President from travelling outside this country even when the courts of law surrender his passport to him so that he can do so.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, that is not our policy. All I can say is that there are certain matters that are being investigated and we hope everything will smoothen itself out shortly.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Lubezhi (Namwala): Mr Speaker, sometime early this year, to be specific in February, there were petitions which were sent to the Commonwealth. The first one was by the Opposition leaders concerning the disregard for human rights in this country. A week after, the Head of State also realised that was the way to go. He sent a petition concerning my president, Hakainde Hichilema’s wealth to the Commonwealth. I would like to hear from His Honour the Vice-President, in his own words, of the two petitions, which one was worth taking to the Commonwealth.

Laughter

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the people who prepared those petitions did not have the courtesy to send a copy of either of them to me.

Laughter

The Vice-President: Thus, I do not know which one was worth sending to the Commonwealth.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Ndalamei (Sikongo): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from His Honour the Vice-President when relief maize will be sent to Sikongo District where people are starving and are buying a 25 kg bag of roller meal at KR100.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the system regarding relief maize and emergencies of all sorts, involving the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU) in my office, is established and running perfectly well. If the hon. Member of Parliament is worried about his area, he should go and see the Permanent Secretary who runs the DMMU at Addis Ababa Roundabout, near Tito Road, where such things are routine and are taken care of very professionally.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mutale (Kwacha): Mr Speaker, I would like His Honour the Vice-President to shed some light on the Feira By-election result. Is this the beginning of democracy?

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

I will not give in to that question. I will avoid it. 

Hon. Member for Monze Central, you may ask your question. 

Laughter 

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from His Honour the Vice-President whether the Government will continue controlling and regulating the price of mealie-meal after the removal of subsidies on consumption. What moral justification will it have to control the price of mealie-meal by directing millers to fix the price when it has removed the subsidy on maize?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the function of the Government, under the current dispensation, is to ensure food security. In other words, the Food Reserve Agency (FRA), either directly or through private traders, must ensure that there is enough maize in the country to prevent a shortage. In terms of pricing and market operations, the Government’s intention is to have no role apart from ensuring food security. 

Mr Speaker, I thank you. 

Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwezi): Mr Speaker, the hon. Members on your left and some of those on your right, last year, argued that this House was not supposed to allocate money for the construction of the House for the current Republican President, Mr Michael Sata. Now that they have removed subsidies on consumption, can His Honour the Vice-President confirm that part of the money which will be saved from the removal of subsidies will go towards the completion of the Head of State’s house? 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, money is fungible, meaning that if I save a kwacha from subsidies and another from selling tickets to a football game, and then spend another on something else, I cannot say which kwacha it was that I spent. 

Laughter 

The Vice-President: Every budget has a plus and minus side. We have to balance the two sides. Whether you have part of a President’s house on one side or not, does not mean that you can match a kwacha that is being spent with a kwacha that is being earned. Just like there is a pool for water, there is also one for kwachas. When a big pool of kwachas is collected in one place, it is spent somewhere. Therefore, it is difficult to say whether certain savings are going towards building the President’s house or not. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Pande (Kasempa): Mr Speaker, the PF has emerged victorious in the Feira By-elections. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Pande: Ordinarily, this should indicate its popularity. 

However, a lot of people doubt its popularity and wonder how it has been winning elections. Is your Government considering bringing forward the General Elections in order to prove its popularity?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, how many elections does the hon. Member want us to hold? We are getting complaints about generating by-elections and wasting public funds even though these by-elections are being driven by the courts and the Constitution. How many elections would he like us to fight and win? 

Interruptions

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

We are not giving His Honour a chance to answer the question. 

You may continue, please. 

The Vice-President: The fundamental problem is that those on your left, Sir, have no issues that they can really raise. I read this morning that the leader of the UPND was telling women that they were very lucky that he was married because they were very beautiful. Presumably, if he was not married, he would have pursued them. He was also inciting them not to sleep with their husbands unless they voted for the UPND. 

Laughter 

The Vice-President: I am afraid this is not the UPND of Anderson Mazoka. 

Thank you, Sir.

Laughter 

Mr Mufalali: On a point of order, Sir. 

Mr Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mufalali: Mr Speaker, is His Honour the Vice-President in order to be so trivial as to reduce this House to something comical? Is he in order to start bringing issues that were happening somewhere else when he should be answering questions? Is he in order to start degenerating the debate on the Floor of the House into something else?

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

You have raised your point of order, which only goes to show that hon. Members from both my left and right should be serious with what they say on the Floor of this House. People out there want to hear what hon. Members of Parliament are saying. If we decide to trivialise issues, what is the point of having 30 minutes of His Honour the Vice-President’s Question Time? 

Can we debate issues seriously. 

Hon. Member for Mkushi South, you may ask your question.  

Mr Chisanga (Mkushi South): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from His Honour the President what the Bank of Zambia (BoZ) is doing about the confusion reigning in banks, especially Stanbic Bank and the Zambia National Commercial Bank (ZANACO), regarding the introduction of new cheques. 

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I am afraid that in the absence of information, I cannot answer this question. I do not know what confusion the hon. Member is referring to.

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Bwalya (Lupososhi): Mr Speaker, we have had concerns regarding the construction of the Mongu Stadium in the Western Province. There was a consortium of contractors which had expressed interest in carrying out the construction works. However, the Zambia Public Procurement Authority (ZPPA) decided to put the tendering process on hold. May His Honour the Vice-President give us the progress regarding the construction of the Mongu Stadium in the Western Province. 

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, as far as I am aware, the construction works are being re-tendered. We are waiting for the closure of that process. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kunda (Muchinga): Mr Speaker, the youths of this country are being used by the PF Government in violent activities. Can His Honour the Vice-President indicate to this House why they have seen it fit to intimidate citizens through violence and to slowly bring anarchy to this country. 

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, one of the problems that we have in trying to respond to this generalised allegation is that people are very short and shy on the specifics. There are allegations that people are being taken from their homes and made to disappear, as if this is Argentina or Chile in the 1970s. However, when we ask for the names of the people that have disappeared, the specifics are not forthcoming. When a name is offered and you go to the house, you find the person home.  

Laughter 

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, similarly, I looked at the TV footage of the violence and called every PF official in Lusaka Province and district to look at the footage too. We were unable to identify any of the people in that footage. The police identified one person who is currently in detention, pending investigations. This person will be charged.

Sir, this idea that there is general anarchy without specifics such as names, dates, incidence, is an attempt to undermine the Government without any solid basis.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lufuma (Kabompo West): Mr Speaker, there is an extremely worrisome trend afflicting our National Budget implementation system in the country. We are increasingly seeing a situation where approved projects are not being funded while ad hoc projects that are thought up in the middle of the year are being funded.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Have you finished?

Laughter

Mr Lufuma: Mr Speaker, I have not finished yet. In my constituency, right now, there are three projects that have not been funded although they were budgeted for. The Government has instead decided to fund the construction of ventilated improved pit (VIP) latrines at schools which do not exist. What is the point of this House sitting for three months approving a Budget, which, in the end does not get implemented, but instead …

Interruptions

Mr Lufuma: Mr Speaker, may I be protected?

Mr Deputy Speaker: You are protected.

Hon. Government Member interjected.

Mr Lufuma: Can you shut up!

Laughter

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order! Order!

Mr Lufuma: Mr Speaker, can the Government explain this serious discrepancy between what is budgeted for and what is being funded.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I will simply repeat the point I made when responding to the last question. It would really help if hon. Members could have specifics as they ask their questions. To say there are three projects without saying what they are, who they are for and what co-financing arrangements might be there, makes the whole statement vague. If the hon. Member would care to write to me and let me have the details of the projects that he says are being neglected although they are budgeted for, and details of the projects that exist in non-existent schools, I may be able to answer his question. I can even answer the question during His Honour the Vice-President’s Question Time. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr I. Banda (Lumezi): Mr Speaker, the United Nations (UN)World Tourism Organisation (WTO) General Assembly is around the corner. Instead of concentrating on the marketing of Livingstone, what is the Government doing to showcase other attraction centres such as the many waterfalls in the Northern Province, the source of the Zambezi River and other areas where there are tourist attractions?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the UNWTO Conference will be held near the Victoria Falls on both the Zimbabwean and Zambian side. A waterfall like Ntumbachushi is at least 1,200 km from there and just quite why we should showcase it, is not clear to me. This is a conference where people will come from all countries of the world to make certain resolutions and then enjoy a drink hosted by the Vice-President on a boat, which I first heard of the other day when the hon. Minister of Tourism and Art assigned me that responsibility. I do not really see how we can sell the possibility of people visiting the whole of Zambia in one full scoop in about four days.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Hamudulu (Siavonga): Mr Speaker, lately, there has been a lot of talk about the 650 health posts that are expected to be constructed around the country. May His Honour the Vice-President inform this House and the nation at large when we expect to see the first foundation for these health posts.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I do not operate like an encyclopaedia or wikipedia or google. I do not have a computer with me where I can look up information. I would recommend that the hon. Member puts that question to the Ministry of Health or the Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Child Health or even gives me notice that he will raise the question next week so that I can answer it.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Kaingu (Mwandi): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs has just issued a ministerial statement on two very serious incidents. It is clear from the way His Honour the Vice-President is answering that the Government is not remorseful about the two incidents.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Dr Kaingu: Mr Speaker, I have two questions for His Honour the Vice-President.

Mr Deputy Speaker: One question only!

Dr Kaingu: Mr Speaker, by his own admission, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs said if the people who encroached on the land in Chongwe were PF members, they would not have been evicted from it. Is it the Government’s policy that the PF members can encroach on any farm without being evicted?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I do not think that the Minister of Home Affairs meant to give that message. The message was that we are being accused, on the one hand, of being the people behind the perpetration of this land abuse or land grabbing. On the other hand, we are being accused of wanting to put it to an end. Does that make sense? What the hon. Minister is saying is the truth, which is, that the same people who were selling land in the Kampasa area to ordinary citizens and speculators from Lusaka were wearing a certain colour of chitenge two years ago and now they are wearing another colour of chitenge. I doubt they were even members of the MMD. That is what the hon. Minister said. I resent the allegation that we are not remorseful because it is just from the blue. Do we want to kill citizens? Of course we do not because we are governing them. What is a country without citizens? I resent such thinking. It is an arbitrary slur. 

I thank you, Sir.

Brig-Gen Dr Chituwo (Mumbwa): Mr Speaker, the residents around Mumbwa, Itezhi-tezhi, Kaoma, Kasempa and Kapiri-Mposhi jealously guard the natural resources which have been provided to this country by our creator. Now that the issuance of safari hunting licences has been forbidden, can His Honour the Vice-President indicate to this House, how the hard-working citizens of this country can benefit from the country’s natural resources in the absence of the income generated from safari hunting. How will they also benefit from the good work they are doing with the Zambia Wildlife Authority (ZAWA)?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Member for that good question as well as the assistance he has been giving to the ZAWA committees in Mumbwa and other areas in the western part of the country to remove suspicions between chiefs, resource boards and the management of ZAWA. I would like to genuinely commend him for that. The hunting concessions have been withdrawn this year because there was a massive level of corruption that had become endemic in ZAWA and lack of information about game stocks, not only of cats, but also of other animals. We are attempting as much as we possibly can to develop a policy under which non-consumptive wildlife use is the norm.

Zambia has more wildlife resources than South Africa, Zimbabwe and Botswana put together, but we earn about one-fifth as much money from these resources as these countries do. We are developing a policy on wildlife under the Ministry of Tourism and Art and, I hope, if at all it will be possible during this current session of Parliament, the hon. Minister will make a statement on our policy regarding this. 

I am aware of the hon. Member’s concerns and I know the area that he is talking about and the pressures that are on that land, especially from settlers coming from outside who are paying the chiefs to be given land, which is pushing the game out. However, may he be assured that we are taking the wildlife issues in his area and other areas seriously.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Siliya (Petauke): Mr Speaker, I do not know if His Honour the Vice-President will be able to answer my question. His response to my question can help me to understand how the Government reconciles the ideology of the PF being pro-poor and the withdrawal of subsidies. Just two years ago, a 25 kg bag of mealie-meal was KR38, but today, you will be lucky if you find it below KR100. What is it that this Government can say about it being pro-poor if it is intervening in the market in agriculture and fuel through the withdrawal of subsidies? What is pro-poor about making people suffer with high food prices?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the Soviet Union collapsed due to that kind of reasoning because when you subsidise the price of mealie-meal, the number of bags bought by the poor is only a very small percentage of the number of bags bought by smugglers and rich people. That is a very inefficient way of using money.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: We would rather make the poor rich than give them mealie-meal at artificially low prices.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Interruptions

__________

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

RECOGNISING CHIEFS IN CENTRAL AND LUAPULA PROVINCES

591. Mr Mushanga (Bwacha) asked the Minister of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs:

(a)how many chiefs, in Central and Luapula provinces, were not recognised as of December, 2012;

(b)what had caused the delay in recognising the chiefs; and

(c)whether Bwacha Parliamentary Constituency had any chiefs and village headpersons.

The Deputy Minister of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs (Mr Taundi): Mr Speaker …

Interruptions

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

Mr Taundi: … the number of chiefs who were not recognised as of December, 2012, was five in the Central Province and five in Luapula Province. The cause of the delay in recognising the chiefs was due to the succession wrangles in the chiefdoms affected. Bwacha Parliamentary Constituency has no chiefs because the constituency falls within State land where there are no chiefdoms.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mushanga: Mr Speaker, what are the specific names of the fives chiefs in Central Province and the five in Luapula Province who have not been recognised?

The Minister of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs (Professor Luo): Mr Speaker, the main question was about how many chiefs that have not been recognised and not the names of these chiefs. As His Honour the Vice-President said before, we are not encyclopaedias to start giving such information from the top of our heads. However, we can, at least, give him some examples of the chiefs that have not been recognised. In Central Province, we have Chiefs Muchinda and Kabanda. We also have Chief Kasoma Bangweulu in Luapula. All these have not been recognised.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mweetwa (Choma Central): Mr Speaker, as a rider to the question of the hon. Member for Bwacha, I would like to find out something from the hon. Minister. There is this strongly-held perception that the Government will be quick …

Professor Lungwangwa: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, thank you very much for granting me this point of order. I rise on a very serious point of order, bordering on the direction of our nation. Just a while ago, His Honour the Vice-President expressed total ignorance of what to do with regard to the United Nations World Tourism Organisation (UNWTO) Conference and the marketing of our country in the area of tourism. 

Mr Speaker, whether we like it or not, international events or conferences are not just ordinary happenings. They are opportunities for marketing countries and clearly, Zambia and Zimbabwe have to demonstrate to the international community their comparative and competitive advantage in the area of tourism. This means that those who are responsible for managing this very important event have to come up with strategic ways of marketing our country.

Mr Speaker, is His Honour the Vice-President in order to express such total ignorance that he does not know how to market our country at this very important event? I need your serious ruling.

Mr Deputy Speaker: I realise that the hon. Member who has raised the point of order wanted to raise it during His Honour the Vice-President’s Question Time, but I decided not to give him the opportunity because I wanted another person to ask a question. I have allowed him to speak now so that he could adequately debate his point of order and I think he has adequately done so.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Speaker, I was saying that there is this very widely and strongly- held perception that the Government will be quick to withdraw recognition of a chief who is deemed inimical to the interests of the Ruling Party or is not supporting the Ruling Party …

Ms Siliya: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Ms Siliya: Mr Speaker, I thank you for your indulgence. In this House, the Executive is expected to be factual in its answers. Was His Honour the Vice-President, in his answer to my question, in order to mislead this House by stating that the reason they are removing subsidies is to make sure that they do, for lack of a better words and if I got him correctly, take away from those that were making money at the expense of the majority when, indeed, it is this Government that is responsible for exports? If it cannot control exports, should we call it a competent Government? If it cannot tax those people who are making enough money from exports to support the poor people, should we call it a competent Government? If it is not able to ensure that it delivers a bag of mealie-meal at the right price, should we call it a competent Government? 

Hon. Government Members: What is your point of order?

Ms Siliya: Mr Speaker, is His Honour the Vice-President in order to not tell us that there is actually something wrong with his economics if, at the end of the day, it does not deliver a bag of mealie-meal in people’s homes at a good price?

Mr Deputy Speaker: You, too, have adequately debated your point of order.

The hon. Member on the Floor may continue.

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Speaker, I equally adequately asked my question. There is this strong view that the Government will be quick to withdraw the recognition of chiefs who are perceived not to be in good standing with the Ruling Party. I am also aware that in the past, when the PF was an opposition party, we, together with its members, accused the MMD members of harassing and threatening chiefs with withdrawal of recognition if they were perceived not to be supportive of the party. Are you continuing with that trend?  Do you still think that it is wise for the Head of State to continue to withdraw the recognition of chiefs when chieftaincy is inherited through bloodlines?

Professor Luo: Mr Speaker, I will help the hon. Member of Parliament to understand the processes which are used in the withdrawal and recognition of a chief. During the selection process, we ask the arms of the Government to be present and to write the minutes of the discussions. The minutes are sent to the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs so that it can authenticate that the selection process was conducted properly. If there is no presence of an arm of the Government, particularly people from the council or staff from the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs, and the minutes have not been written by them, the selection process will not be taken as a true reflection of what happened. The Government representatives neither participate in any action nor influence the manner in which the selection is done. The role of the ministry is to ensure that the process takes place smoothly.

Mr Speaker, the issues regarding a majority of the chiefs that have not been recognized, to date, are a spillover from the previous Government. The PF Government has not had any submissions regarding new chiefs who need to be recognised. 

Mr Speaker, if a wrangle erupts between families, the ministry sets up an inquiry to get more information on what the dispute is all about. We have withdrawn the recognition of Chief Sikongo in Chirundu. This man is not Zambian, but Zimbabwean. He was a retainer for the late Chief Sikongo and somewhat weaved his way into becoming recognised as chief by the people and not by the Government. We sent an inquiry and he admitted that our findings were correct. I am sure that the hon. Member of Parliament for that area knows about this story.

Mr Speaker, the second chief whose recognition we have withdrawn is Chief Kalindawalo in Petauke. This chiefdom has been marred by influence from Lusaka. As a result, there was a recognised chief whose recognition was withdrawn on political grounds before we came to power. Another chief, who is not from the family tree of the Kalindawalo Chiefdom, was enthroned. We, therefore, withdrew recognition of that chief. I have had discussions with the mbumbas to confirm that there was a problem.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Who are the mbumbas?

Laughter

Professor Luo: The mbumbas are the young ladies of Petauke …

Hon. Government Members: Dora!

Professor Luo: No, Dora is not a mbumba. 

Laughter

Professor Luo: The mbumbas are sisters and cousins of the chiefs who are tasked to select the chief. If you like, they have the last say on who becomes the chief. If the mbumbas do not have this last say, this person cannot be chief and this was the case in the Kalindawalo whose recognition we withdrew. The mbumbas were not allowed to play their role in the selection process. 

Mr Speaker, there is no political influence. What is there are professional investigations. During our tenure of office, we do not want to be blamed, like our colleagues in the previous Government, for withdrawing the recognition of chiefs on political grounds.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mwanza (Solwezi West): Mr Speaker, I would like her to link what she is saying with the problem regarding Senior Chief Mwamba. Has there been Government interference in this succession plan?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Luo: Mr Speaker, I forgot to refer to Chief Mwamba’s issue. I would like to take advantage of this question to give the correct position regarding the withdrawal of Chief Mwamba’s recognition. Those of you who listen to Radio Mano in the Northern Province, in Kasama will know that the Bemba succession process is based on promotion and transfer. 

Mr Speaker, there are two chiefdoms from which Chief Chitimukulu can be selected. The arm where Chief Mwamba comes from, Chief Mpepo is the junior-most and gets transferred to become Chief Nkolemfumu on promotion. He, then, can be promoted to become Chief Mwamba. Chief Mwamba stays in wait for the opportunity to become Chief Chitimukulu. If there is no opportunity, he ends up only as Chief Mwamba. The other way is that one can start as Chief Chikwanda and get promoted to become Chief Nkula. It is at that level where the person can wait to become Chief Chitimukulu. These two are the ones that can become Chitimukulu.

The one who was withdrawn from serving as Chief Mwamba is Chief Mpepo, and he never served as Chief Nkolemfumu, he became Chief Mwamba directly. Thirdly, in the Bemba tradition, when a person is selected to be a chief, that person has to go through the traditional rituals before he can be called a chief. He is also given what are called the instruments of power, and the instruments of power in the Bemba Chiefdom are called babenye.

Interruptions

Professor Luo: Mr Speaker, Chief Mwamba refused to be initiated traditionally. Unsolicited, he went to Radio Mano to say that he would not be initiated because that would conflict with his religious principles. He also went to The Post, and I think many of you must have read the article where he repeated the fact that he has not been initiated traditionally. If you go to the Act, you will find that it says that for someone to become a chief, he must be initiated under African customs. When The Post asked me to respond to this issue, my response was that this was Bashilubemba’s issue and not Chief Mwamba’s issue, and I said that Bashilubemba should put their house in order. In the same article in The Post, Chief Mwamba said that even the Chitimukulus were not initiated. Again, I said that it was a pity that he had said that because it meant that there was a problem among Bashilubemba. That is why I advised the Bashilubemba to put their house in order. Instead of putting their house in order as I advised, Bashilubemba opened a Pandora’s box and started arguing. The withdrawal of Chief Mwamba from his position is based on the fact that he never served as Chief Nkolemfumu and also refused to be initiated traditionally. I also want to state that some of the anger that you saw in the newspapers is because the Bemba Royal Establishment (BRE) had suspended Chief Mpepo and requested me to be paying him half salary and pay the other half to the establishment so that it could look after the family of the late chief. I told the BRE that that could not be done. Culturally and traditionally, there are courts of law at traditional level, and if somebody is found wanting, that person is supposed to pay a fine in form of a chicken, a goat or whatever the court wants to fine that person with. I cannot take the Government’s money, that is, the salary from the ministry, and divide it because I will have audit queries. 

Mr Speaker, I think that I have put the facts as they are on the Floor of the House so that we do not believe some of the articles in the newspapers which are not factual. If people want more information on this issue, they are free to come to my office.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Brig-Gen Dr Chituwo (Mumbwa): Mr Speaker, ...

Hon. Opposition Member: You want to ask something on the same issue?

Brig-Gen Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, we come here to debate. The question that still begs an answer is: When does one qualify to be a chief? Should this House not reconsider the process of recognising a chief? When a royal establishment has convinced itself and selected a chief, surely, that should be the final say in the recognition of this chief by the Government. Should there be an arm of the Government which should participate in the selection process? If it should be there, it should just be for formality purposes. That aspect has not been adequately talked about by the hon. Minister. Can we be very clear on the question, when one qualifies to be a chief. 

Professor Luo: Mr Speaker, I should not create my own way of handling matters. According to the law that I am supposed to follow, the royal establishment chooses a chief who is later on initiated through customary tradition. In this case, we have a chief who was nominated without following a proper transfer system and was not initiated. In fact, to make things clearer, let me say that the people who recognised the chief in the past created this problem. This is because they should have guided him to follow their tradition. That is why when I was asked to comment on this issue, I threw the issue back to Bashilubemba and said that they should put their house in order so that they give us the right person through the right procedures.  

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mucheleka (Lubasenshi): Mr Speaker, with regard to Senior Chief Mwamba and Senior Chief Nkula, we, as the Bemba Royal Family, have stated our position and it will stay that way.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

The Chairperson is hesitant. We do not want this to become a debate between the members of the royal family that is being fought in the Chamber. This issue can be dealt with outside this House. Please, ask a relevant question.

Mr Mucheleka: Mr Speaker, I am aware that the policy of successive Governments from 1964 to date has been that of not recognising any more chiefs. Instead, they maintained the same number of chiefs there were in 1964. Therefore, I would like to find out the motivation behind the recognition of Chief Chimbuka and Chief Chewe in Chinsali District.

Professor Luo: Mr Speaker, first of all, I want to advise my colleague who is asking this question to bear in mind the fact that when we sit in this House, we have different hats. One of the things we should not do is mix our hats with the reasons we were brought to this House. In fact, I come from the same royal establishment as him. However, I am trying to do the correct thing …

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order! 

I guided you earlier when I said that those of you who have an interest in this matter should deal with it outside the House in accordance with your traditions.

Professor Luo: Mr Speaker, my ministry is reviewing many issues to do with chiefdoms that have implications in the development agenda of this country. 

Sir, like the Nsengas, the Bemba Chiefdom has queen mothers who have the last say on who becomes chief. Some of the problems we have noticed in Petauke and Northern Province is that these queen mothers are not part of the selection process. Thus, those who are recognised do not have any respect from them. 

Mr Speaker, apart from the two chiefs that you have mentioned, there will be many other chiefs who will be recognised who are important in the development of our chiefdoms. This is because we are taking development to the chiefdoms and want to stop the existing wrangles. 

Sir, the position of Chief Chewe, as you know, has been a bone of contention in Chinsali. Infact, the history of Chief Chewe is that he is the one who is supposed to be the Chief Nkula Chewe. However, they removed one chief in their set-up and recognised another chief. As a result, there was a big fight involving chiefs in Chinsali. Chief Mukwikile even ended up being arrested and put in Kamfinsa Prison. So, for us to bring peace to that part of the district, it is better to recognise the two chiefs separately.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Next Question.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

CONSTRUCTION OF A POLICE STATION AT LUMEZI CENTRE

592. Mr I. Banda (Lumezi) asked the Minister of Home Affairs when the Government would construct a police station at Lumezi Centre in Lumezi Parliamentary Constituency.

The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Kampyongo): Mr Speaker, it is the wish of the Government to take services of the Zambia Police Force to all needy areas. Therefore, the Government will construct a police station at Lumezi Centre in the Lumezi Parliamentary Constituency when funds are available.

Mr I. Banda: Mr Speaker, the area in question is fast-growing and has a lot of infrastructure. We have two high schools. One is a boarding school while the other one is a day secondary school. We also have a big hospital now.

Hon. Government Members: Ask the question!

Mr I. Banda: Sir, can the Government not consider giving us a police station since the nearest one is 30km away?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, I was very clear in my response when I said that there was a need for police services in the hon. Member’s constituency. When funds are available, we will definitely get to the constituency and construct a police station there. 

I thank you, Sir.

REGULAR WATER SUPPLY FOR RESIDENTS OF SESHEKE CONSTITUENCY

594. Mr Sianga (Sesheke) asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing:

(a)when the residents of Sesheke Parliamentary Constituency would begin to receive water throughout the day;

(b)whether the Government had any plans to replace water pipes that frequently burst; and

(c)what plans the Government had to increase the number of customers receiving piped water in the constituency.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1045 hours until 1100 hours.

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the Chair]

The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr Kufuna): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform this august House that the people of Sesheke will start having water almost throughout the day when the KR735,000 water works which include construction of an elevated tank at Katimamulilo Township, laying of pipes, improvement of water intake at Sesheke Main Pump Station and metering of the households in Sesheke, by the end of 2013, have been completed.

Sir, the Ministry of Local Government and Housing, through the Western Water and Sewerage Company, has secured KR1.9 million from the Devolutionary Trust Fund (DTF) for the improvement of water supply in Sesheke townships and schools. The project which will include the replacement of water pipes that frequently burst is currently at tender stage.

Mr Speaker, the number of customers receiving piped water will increase when the programmes mentioned above are completed.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sianga: Mr Speaker, Sesheke Parliamentary Constituency is on the banks of the mighty Zambezi River. When will the PF Government improve the water reticulation system in my constituency?

Mr Kufuna: Mr Speaker, in the last part of my answer I said that the water reticulation will improve when the projects which are talked about in parts (a) and (b) will be completed, that is, by the end of this year, 2013.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mufalali (Senanga): Mr Speaker, I seek clarification from the hon. Deputy Minister. When is the project starting since he is saying that it is ending by the end of the year?

Mr Kufuna: Mr Speaker, the project began sometime back and the contractor is on the ground.

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Antonio (Kaoma Central): Mr Speaker, there is confirmation from the hon. Member of Parliament for Sesheke that there is no contractor on site. When will the contractor move on site?

Mr Kufuna: Mr Speaker, that is news to me. However, according to the information we have, the contractor is on site and the 100 cu m tank which is supposed to be put there is already there.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Speaker, what is the name of the contractor on site?

Mr Kufuna: Mr Speaker, the original question did not require the name of the contractor, but …

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Kufuna: … what we know is that the contractor is on site.

I thank you, Sir.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

When we prepare answers, we must anticipate questions like the one which has been raised.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE TO YOUTHS IN DUNDUMWEZI CONSTITUENCY

595.     Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwezi) asked the Minister of Youth and Sport:

(a)how many youth clubs applied for financial assistance in the form of loans, in Dundumwezi Parliamentary Constituency, from 2011 to date; 

(b)how many applications for loans were successfully considered; and 

(c)what the names of these clubs that applied for loans were.

The Deputy Minister of Youth and Sport (Mr Miyutu): Mr Speaker, there were no applicants for financial assistance in the form of loans from youth clubs in Dundumwezi Parliamentary Constituency from 2011 to date.

Hon. Government Member: Where is the MP?

Mr Miyutu: Sir, youths can obtain the application forms from the provincial administration, the District Commissioner (DC) and youth resource centres …  

Hon. Government Member: Quality.

Mr Miyutu: … for submission to the Provincial Youth Development Fund Committee.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyutu: Mr Speaker, as a result of the answer given in part (a), there were no considerations for the loans from Dundumwezi Parliamentary Constituency.

Hon. Government Member: You see? Where were you?

Mr Miyutu: Consequently part (c) falls out.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Eba Minister.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

I get surprised that even when the hon. Deputy Ministers on the right know that the person on the Floor is an hon. Deputy Minister, they still say, eba Minister.

Laughter

Mr Sing’ombe: Mr Speaker, I am disappointed with the response. I would like to know what happened to the eleven application forms which were handed over to the DC in Kalomo, who is now in Livingstone, and transmitted to the Permanent Secretary in Livingstone.

Mr Miyutu: Mr Speaker, that question is full of quality. I usually refer to myself as a human being made up of flesh by God.

Hon. Government Members: Yes.

Mr Miyutu: I always act like a human being and not like a supernatural one.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The hon. Deputy Minister started very well

Laughter

Hon. Government Member: Long live the Chair!

Mr Miyutu: Mr Speaker, the information that we have, as a ministry, is factual. I can justify my answer. I was in Livingstone on the 17th of this month where I met the Provincial Youth Development Committee Co-ordinator, Mr Sitali. The answers I am providing are the answers that reflect what is, actually, on the ground. I can even give a bonus answer. 

Hon. Government Member: Yes, go ahead.

Mr Miyutu: Mr Speaker, in 2012, the whole of the Southern Province received a grant worth K530,678,000 and we had thirteen applicants who accessed this money. Whatever is beyond the knowledge of the ministry cannot be accessed because the applications were not forwarded to the Provincial Youth Development Fund Committee.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, since the hon. Deputy Minister is a committed and dedicated member of the United Party for National Development (UPND), he is aware of the policies of the UPND pertaining to the youth and … 

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Mwiimbu: … that, as a party, we agreed that our position is that applications should be decentralised to the districts. Is the hon. Deputy Minister, as an agent of the UPND in the PF Government, going to ensure that this initiative is implemented?

Laughter 

Mr Miyutu: Mr Speaker, I would like to ask the questioner to become humane. Let us not tempt each other.

Laughter 

Mr Miyutu: Mr Speaker, I am in this House because of the votes of the people of Kalabo Central.

Hon. Government Members: Yes.

Mr Miyutu: I am here to work for the people of Kalabo Central. Nobody should forget that I represent a multitude of voters in Kalabo Central. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyutu: Sir, nobody should forget that Miyutu is here to serve the interests of the people of Kalabo Central. Nobody should mislead the people of Kalabo Central that Miyutu is not representing them. They should know that Miyutu is working for them day and night.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

__________{mospagebreak}

MOTIONS

REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE ON LANDS, ENVIRONMENT AND TOURISM

Mr Muteteka (Chisamba): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that this House do adopt the Report of the Committee on Lands, Environment and Tourism for the Second Session of the Eleventh National Assembly, laid on the Table of this House on 10th June, 2013.

The Deputy Chairperson: Is the Motion seconded?

Mr Kapyanga (Kabwe Central): Mr Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

Mr Muteteka: Mr Speaker, for the session under review, your Committee considered a topic on land administration in Zambia. 

Professor Lungwangwa: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

The Deputy Chairperson: Go ahead and move your Motion.

Mr Muteteka: Mr Speaker, additionally, as a consequence of representations made to it by the Community-Based Natural Resources Management Forum, your Committee also considered a topic on the proposed Kangaluwi Large-Scale Copper Mining Project in the Lower Zambezi National Park. 

Sir, I will begin with the issue of land administration in Zambia. Your Committee is disappointed to learn that Zambia has never had a land policy to guide the overall administration of land in Zambia. As a consequence of the absence of a land policy, your Committee notes that there is no co-ordination or discernible cohesive inter-relationship between the different pieces of legislation that deal with land, resulting in some instances, in conflicting views by the different stakeholders on land administration.

Sir, in addition, your Committee notes that the laws on land administration in Zambia which were inherited from the British Colonial Government with very little adjustments cannot address present-day land issues. Further, the Zambia land administration system has also been directed by presidential directives, pronouncements and circulars.

Your Committee, therefore, urges the Government to expeditiously put in place a land policy. In this regard, your Committee further urges the Government to review all laws relating to land, land administration and management in line with the Government policy objectives.

Sir, your Committee observes that there is unabated invasion of planned areas by squatters, leading to a shortage of planned land sites. This leads to development taking place contrary to the provisions and the vision of the country’s development plans. Your committee also notes that the planning and re-planning of unplanned settlements has failed to take off, despite local authorities’ intentions to do so. This is due to political interference. 

Mr Speaker, people living in these unplanned settlements, in most instances, have no access to services such as water, sanitation and electricity. As a result, most people have provided their own water and sewerage facilities which tend to contravene the rules. What this means is that there is a high likelihood of ground water contamination not only for the concerned residents, but for the greater population as well. Furthermore, since there are no roads due to the unplanned nature of the developments, it will be difficult, if not impossible, for the services of an ambulance, police or fire brigade to reach such areas.

Mr Speaker, even though the process of re-planning the unplanned settlements will result in casualties, your Committee urges the Government to restore order and provide the majority of people in these areas with decent conditions of living. 

Mr Speaker, your Committee notes that Town and Country Planning is failing as evidenced by the mushrooming of unplanned settlements. This is due to the fact that the Town and Country Planning Act, Cap 283 of 1962 and the Housing (Statutory and Improvement Areas) Act, Cap 294 of 1974 are outdated and inadequate to address the current planning challenges in Zambia. These laws give preference to planned urban settlements in terms of planning standards and security of tenure as compared to unplanned urban settlements and peri-urban areas where the majority of the population lives. The law also centralises planning powers with very few planning functions at the district level. 

Sir, your Committee, in this instance, urges the Government to expedite the revision of the Town and Country Planning legislation so as to address the entire spectrum of planning, including customary land. Further, the Government is urged to expedite the decentralisation process so as to allow all local authorities to be planning authorities.

Mr Speaker, your Committee finds it curious that although the majority of the land is under customary tenure, there are no guidelines on how this land is to be administered. Consequently, and as a result of differing traditions and customs, as well as chiefs’ point of view, this has resulted in varied methods of land allocation styles with some chiefs giving out land at the expense of their people who are sometimes displaced as well as in some instances, the chiefdom’s land is exhausted.  

Sir, your Committee, therefore, recommends that the Government should put in place legislation, structures and guidelines on how chiefs should manage land that is under their jurisdiction. This can be done through the creation of land administration boards in all chiefdoms. 

Your Committee also notes with concern that customary land, unlike State land, does not enjoy security of tenure. Consequently, the rights of people living on customary land are susceptible to tenure insecurity if these rights are not adequately legally recognised.

Mr Speaker, given the preponderance of customary tenure, your Committee is of the view that ensuring tenure security for customary land rights in this country is an essential element for sustainable development. In order for customary land tenure to be secured, the Government is urged to, through legislation, introduce traditional land certificates that are recognised by financial institutions and other institutions.

Sir, your Committee is also of the view that in order to achieve the foregoing, the Government should, as a starting point, conduct a countrywide reconciliation of all the chiefdoms and district boundary maps so that they are up to date. In relation to the Kangaluwi Large Scale Copper Mining Project being proposed by Mwembeshi Resources Limited, your Committee strongly recommends that the project be rejected for the reasons advanced on pages 11 and 12 of its report.

Mr Speaker, your Committee was privileged to undertake foreign and local tours on the subject of land administration. Your Committee recommends, as is the case in Uganda, that the Government should:

(i)enact legislation that provides for persons holding land under customary  
         tenure to obtain certificates. These certificates are recognised by financial   
         institutions and other organisations;

(ii)enact legislation providing for district land boards which allows for land administration to filter to the districts so that local people can have an opportunity to have a say in land administration issues within their districts. The district land boards are where appeals from the traditional land boards are made; and

(iii)provide a safeguard for the protection and conservation of natural resources by ensuring that at any given time, the stock for forest reserves remains the same. Therefore, other than providing for the degazetting of forest reserves for other uses, the law must equally provide for the degazettion of a forest reserve to be accompanied with an alternative piece of land equal to or greater than the forest reserve that is being degazetted as a replacement.

Sir, arising out of the local tour of Kamwala South, Chibolya, Kanyama and Makeni, your Committee urges the Government to restore order by stopping all illegal land allocations and settlements as well as illegal mining in places not designated for such a purpose. Your Committee reiterates that all existing unplanned settlements should be upgraded, including Chibolya which is currently a no-go area for all Government agents, including the police.

Your Committee, in this particular instance, strongly urges the Government to normalise the status quo by way of proceeding with the Lusaka City Council plans for the area. Regarding the tour of some areas with water sources such as Siavonga and the Lower Zambezi, your Committee notes with dismay that these areas have been taken over or are being taken over by investors much to the detriment of the local communities.

Sir, as for Siavonga, although Lake Kariba is the key tourist attraction for the district, the entire lake is closed off by private properties except for two access points, making the waterfront generally inaccessible to the public. Therefore, for one to access the waterfront, he or she has to go to one of the lodges or private properties along the lake. Your Committee was further saddened to learn that one developer has bought a vast piece of land stretching several kilometres on the waterfront and fenced it off, forcing the District Commissioner (DC) to intervene by requesting the developer to create a small opening for communities to access the waterfront.

Mr Speaker, furthermore, your Committee observes that Siavonga provides a peculiar problem in that land administration and allocations have been chaotic as most land is allocated directly from Lusaka or Choma. As a consequence, most land developers disregard the council’s authority and directives in relation to land use and management. Additionally, the 56 m buffer zone from the highest point has been completely ignored by developers in Siavonga who have, in most cases, extended their properties right up to the lake. Consequently, the local authority’s plan to build walkways for the public along the lake has failed and requests to developers to observe the rule have been ignored completely.

Sir, consequently, the style of land administration in Siavonga has resulted in the second displacement, after the displacement during the Kariba Dam construction, of the local people who have been pushed away from the lake and its surroundings into areas not of their choice. Your Committee, in this regard, recommends that at all times when land is allocated, the Government and its agents must primarily take into account the rights of the local people of the area.

Mr Speaker, your Committee urges the Central Government to refrain from allocating plots in lieu of existing and functioning local authorities. Your Committee further recommends that for all areas with water bodies, access to the water should be protected and enforced by law. Additionally, your Committee is of the view that the 56 m buffer zone should be strictly enforced to allow access to all as well as for common usage.

Sir, your Committee took advantage of its tour of Livingstone to ascertain Zambia’s preparedness for the United Nations World Tourism Organisation (UNWTO) Conference. Your Committee notes with concern that generally, plans for the UNWTO Conference are behind schedule with key infrastructure works, such as those for the international bus terminal and the Zimbabwe-COMESA Market. The works are still in their initial phases. From the forgoing, your Committee recommends that funds be released on time to ensure the completion of all outstanding projects before the UNWTO Conference.

Mr Speaker, connected to the foregoing, your Committee observes with dismay that the landfill for Livingstone which is near the Harry Mwaanga Nkumbula International Airport poses an immediate danger due to the scavenging birds that frequent the dump site. If a bird got sucked into an airplane engine, it would result in a crash. Your Committee, therefore, urges the Government to expeditiously close the existing landfill and find an alternative site before the UNWTO Conference. 

In conclusion, your Committee wishes to express its gratitude to you, Sir, and the Clerk of the National Assembly for the support rendered to it during its deliberations. Your Committee is also indebted to all the witnesses who appeared before it for their co-operation in providing the necessary memoranda and briefs. Your Committee is hopeful that the observations and recommendations contained in this report will go a long way in improving the land, environment and tourism sectors in Zambia. 

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Mr Kapyanga: Now, Sir. 

Mr Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to thank you, most sincerely, for having given me this occasion to second the Motion on the Floor. Issues of land administration and management are critical in the development of this nation. 

Mr Speaker, individuals, families and nations are fighting over land. Without the proper management of land, sustainable development cannot be attained. Land issues are emotive because every person tends to pay attention to them.  

Mr Speaker, since the Chairperson has given a broad overview of your Committee’s Report, I shall endeavour to highlight some issues in detail. 

Sir, during its deliberations, your Committee was unable to obtain vital statistics on land in Zambia from the responsible ministry due to the fact that this information is not known. In this regard, your Committee urges the Ministry of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection, with appropriate and relevant terms of reference, and in consultation with all stakeholders, to expeditiously complete the nationwide land audit. Your Committee is dismayed by the continued displacement of people from their land. 

Additionally, your Committee notes that the historical injustices, vis-à-vis displacements continue to be unresolved to date. Sir, your Committee observes that large- scale land investments in Zambia are on the rise in various sectors such as mining, tourism and agriculture. However, your Committee notes that in many instances, local people and traditional leaders are seldom consulted before large-scale land acquisition occurs. 

It further notes that this has, in some instances, led to customary land holders being dispossessed of their land with major investment having no tangible benefits for these communities. Your Committee notes that there has also been inadequate compensation for communities which have been dispossessed of their land, where compensation has been given. People have lost access to sources of livelihood such as forests, land for farming and water.  

Mr Speaker, your Committee was informed that in the Lower Zambezi, most of the land along the river belongs to individual families or clans and that this land has been passed down in family lineages. We heard that when such a family wants to sell land to an investor, it approaches the chief who inquires whether such a decision is unanimous and whether the family has an alternative. 

Sir, even though these individuals willingly, and for monetary consideration, sell the land, it is important to acknowledge that the poverty levels, coupled with the general lack and low levels of education, makes them vulnerable to investors. At the promise of quick money and at the expense of losing their rightful heritage and inheritances, your Committee notes that there is hardly any corporate social responsibility from investors in these areas. It further notes that the lack of a Government policy directive or legal framework exacerbates the issues for local communities who are powerless to make demands which can be respected by investors. 

Mr Speaker, your Committee urges the Government to put in place legislation compelling all investors to re-invest a percentage of their earnings back into the communities where they make their money. In short, your Committee urges the Government to ensure that wherever there is displacement of people, there should be alternative resettlement land and adequate compensation. Your Committee further urges the Government to stop all investors, whether local or foreign, from denying people access to resources such as water. 

Regarding the newly-created Lusaka National Park, your Committee urges the Government to expedite the opening of this park by facilitating the sorting out of all the outstanding issues. Your Committee is saddened to see that the Siavonga District Council has allocated plots to several religious organisations clustered in Mitcho unplanned area, without going on the ground to ascertain the state of the land. Consequently, several residents of Mitcho who have been there for over ten years have been ordered to leave to pave way for the legal owners of the land, without an alternative area being given to them 

Your Committee recommends that local authorities should follow the laid-down procedures for the administration and management of land. Your Committee also urges local authorities to desist from planning methods that see the clustering of churches or religious groupings in one area. 

Mr Speaker, your Committee learnt that Livingstone, like most urban centres, is unable to expand as it no longer has land to do so. Consequently, it had applied for 4,000 ha of Dambwa Forest from the relevant department. However, after obtaining and surveying this land, the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) launched investigations into the propriety of how this land was given. Consequently, all plans for the expansion of Livingstone are on hold.

Sir, your Committee, urges the ACC to expeditiously conclude its investigations into the degazetting and allocation of 4,000 ha from Dambwa Forest to Livingstone City Council so that progress can be made.

Mr Speaker, the Livingstone City Council is concerned that residents in the upgraded areas do not have documentation as proof of ownership of their land. Some residents have council land record cards which are not recognised by the system. In addition, the land record cards which are renewable every ten years have proven to be cumbersome for residents. Your Committee urges the Livingstone City Council to establish a proper information communication technology (ICT)-based land record system.

Sir, Livingstone, like Siavonga, has a problem with the ministry responsible for land, issuing title deeds for land in Livingstone from Lusaka. This practice not only exacerbates the erroneous double allocation of land, but also fuels the corruption that is complained about in land matters.

Mr Speaker, I wish to reiterate what the Chairperson said that the Central Government through the Ministry of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection, should refrain from allocating plots in lieu of existing and functioning local authorities.

Sir, your Committee was intrigued to discover that Sioma, like most of the Western Province is mostly customary land, with certificates of land ownership being given by the Barotse Royal Establishment through the Kuta. Your Committee, however, notes that apart from not being legally recognised, the disadvantage of these certificates is that they lack a scientifically ascertainable form of area measurement to identify the land.

Mr Speaker, in this regard, your Committee wishes to urge the Government to pass legislation for traditional land certificates to have legal recognition with the requisite surveyed diagrams. The Government, in extending planning to customary land, as alluded to by the Chairperson, must ensure proper land use planning that protects people’s rights to access and share resources such as water.

Sir, I beg to second.

Mr Hamududu (Bweengwa): Mr Speaker, I have one issue to raise over land. In supporting the report of your Committee, I would like to say that it is a wakeup call. It is a warning that something must be done with the supposedly huge tracts of land which we have. If we are not very careful with our land management activities, in a few years time, our Zambian people will rise up like in Zimbabwe.

Sir, generally, in the Southern African Development Community (SADC) region, foreigners are not supposed to own land and, so, we must re-visit our land policies. In cases where we give foreigners land, it must be limited hectarage. We must not be careless about the way we deal with the issue of land because, very soon, our people will not have land. I would like to state that one of the biggest assets Zambia has is the land itself. It is land ownership as an asset that the poor people must leverage on to survive. It is the only possession which must be guarded jealously. 

Mr Speaker, I would like to urge the Government to take advantage of the on-going constitutional review process to seriously look at the issue of land ownership in this country. There must be a limitation on the amount of land owned by one person. We must not have a situation where people own big hectarages of land. We might say that even though we have a population of about 13 million people, we want every Zambian to own a piece of land, there must be equity in land allocation. Otherwise, we will have a growing economy, but with very poor people simply because these people have no permanent land of their own.

Sir, ensuring that every household has some piece of land is the best way to provide social justice to our people. The Government must now look at the statutes that exist on land issues, take advantage of the Constitutional Review process and address the issues to do with land. That way, we will ensure that Zambian people do not become tenants in their own country.

Mr Speaker, if you go to Katuba area, you will see the huge fences people are putting up. These people putting up these structures are not even Zambians. If we went to live in other countries where some of these people come from, we would not even be allowed to own land. So, why do the foreigners own land here? If they want land here, in Zambia, they should come and partner with the local people. We should not have a situation where foreigners are given land at the expense of Zambians all in the name of job creation. Our Zambian people are capable of creating jobs from the land. They just need facilitation and support. You do not need a foreigner to use land to provide jobs. That can only happen when you stop thinking. The foreigners must only come to partner with Zambians, but ownership should never go to them.

Sir, your Committee indicated that in Livingstone City, there is a request that 4,000 ha be degazetted from Dambwa Forest so that it can be used for other purposes. That is very positive. Livingstone requires another sector to grow the economy other than tourism. So, to get around this problem of over dependency on tourism, we can use land. If we carried out a research in Livingstone, we would find that it is possible for the tourism sector to be augmented by another sector such as horticulture.

Mr Speaker, we now have an international airport in Livingstone which can be used to export flowers directly into South Africa and Europe. Tourism alone is not enough. We need other industries. So, that land which is being requested for by the council should not be for housing projects only. Some of that land should be for serious economic activities with an anchor farm in the middle. If the country invested into horticulture, a lot of jobs would be created. So, let us not just push an agenda of housing projects as the only way of solving problems for our people.

Sir, 4,000 ha of land is too much for one district just for a housing project. Livingstone has other employment-creation possibilities and, so, some of that land must go to the creation of jobs. The unemployment that was caused by the closure of industries such as the Livingstone Motor Assembly can be reversed in one or two years.

Mr Speaker, I cannot believe that a plot in Lusaka costs K1billion. Why should a plot in Lusaka be more expensive than in Cape Town? What is here in Lusaka that plots should cost so much?

Sir, there is an artificial shortage of land in Lusaka, which is surrounded by shanty compounds and, because of this, some people are busy speculating with land. There are laws that allow the authorities to appropriate land in national interest with full compensation. Lusaka is a flat land and, so, how can a plot cost K1 billion? These prices for land in Lusaka are all artificial. It is no longer a farming area and, therefore, those who are still speculating and pretending to be farmers can be moved although not using the Zimbabwean style.

Namibia implements straightforward laws on land administration. We can also appropriate land in national interest with full compensation. All we need to do is just to evaluate the land owned by foreigners and fully compensate them without negotiations. If we allow the current situation to continue, our people in the middle class will continue failing to get plots. I cannot believe that in such a big country like ours, with only about 13 million people, young Zambian bankers or teachers are failing to get a plot. Every Zambian who has money to build must be provided with a plot. That is job creation and expansion of the economy. The frontline investor is the local person. The Government needs to just create an enabling environment. How can we expect jobs to be provided by foreigners? 

Mr Speaker, I can tell you that some big economies that have risen from the third to the first world have used local people. The theory of thinking that foreigners will come here to build our country is wrong. We can, actually, create our own jobs through local people using land ownership. For example, if we offloaded 100 plots in each town every year, how many jobs, even if they are temporary, can we create and put food on the table of the Zambian people? Those in this House who are building, are they not providing jobs? 

The issue of job creation is very simple because it is all about inclusiveness. Let there be many Zambian players doing something in order for our economy to absorb the unemployed masses. If, for example, 5,000 Zambians are building houses and each one of those are employing five people on their plots, in the space of six months to one year of building, how many jobs are going to be created? These are the tricks that we need to use. Currently, people are just holding on to money which they are supposed to invest in different businesses. 

I can tell you, even here, there are hon. Members of Parliament who have money and want to build a house, but cannot do so because they cannot get a plot. How can this be, in a huge flat land country like ours? I am, therefore, appealing to the Ministry of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection to, please, set a threshold of releasing at least 100 plots in every district every year, so that our people become the frontline investors in their own country.

Sir, I want to conclude by repeating that foreigners must not own land in this country. If we give them a window to own land, it must be very limited. Once these people get huge tracts of land because of speculation, tomorrow, they will be selling it at very high prices to our own children. This is actually happening. Therefore, this report must not be taken as just another report tabled here. 

Sir, I want to thank the Chairperson of your Committee and seconder of this Motion for such a wonderful report. Hon. Members of the Executive must really go through the recommendations in these reports and give them to the technocrats for implementation. We want to see progress. If our colleagues in Government fail on the issue of land ownership and continue allowing foreigners to own land, I can tell you that they will be ‘mince meat’ come 2016.

Sir, with these few words, I thank you.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Mr Speaker, thank you very much for allowing me to make a few comments on this report. I am an hon. Member of the Committee and, therefore, I will be very brief. One of the most pertinent issues on the African Continent is the fact that this continent, itself, is a question mark. If you look at the land mass of Africa and Robben Island together, you have a question. Africa is shaped like a question mark. Africa is the question mark of the world and within that question is the issue of land ownership.

Mr Speaker, we had an opportunity, once, to visit a very advanced country with colleagues here such as Hon. Brig-Gen Chituwo. We had an opportunity of visiting a farmer in that country and, on that farm, we saw the drilling for oil taking place. The owner of the farm told us that there was a company that did prospecting on his land, found oil and were now drilling for it. Being part of the shareholders, the farmer, of course, now had the money which he needed for other things. 

Mr Speaker, our brothers and sisters on the Copperbelt would, by now, have been owners of dreamliner aeroplanes if they were not moved from their land. The land where Kitwe is belongs to Chief Nkana and his people. The land where Mufulira is belongs, I think, partly, to Chief Nkana and Chief Mushili. We can go on and on. The land where this Parliament is sitting belongs to the Soli people. 

We know that because of acts of history, unfortunately, our people were moved from the land along the line of rail from Livingstone to the Copperbelt. They were moved from about 50 km west and east of the railway line and ended up settling in other areas. They lost their land. Otherwise, by now, the Lambas, Solis and Tongas would have been the richest sons and daughters on the African continent. That is unfortunate. The question that should be answered by all of us is: How can we then ensure that we correct that accident of history so that our people own land and the poverty that we talk about can easily be eliminated or reduced drastically?

Mr Speaker, that brings us to the issue which is mentioned in your Committee’s report, our land tenure system. It is good that 94 per cent of our land is under the customary land tenure system. That is good for Zambia because it means that, as a nation, we have an opportunity to change things in order to economically empower our people. As the report of your Committee indicates, the type of land tenure under the customary system can enable us, as a people, to come up with mechanisms of ensuring that this land is bankable. Our people should have access to certificates or title deeds which they can take to the banks so that they can access resources to be able to utilise the land developmentally. 

Mr Speaker, this is what we saw in Uganda. The Ugandans have moved to a level whereby the land under customary or traditional tenure can be given certificates which are taken to the banks and people access resources to develop it. I think the Executive has a challenge of ensuring that that kind of direction is looked at critically in order to see how best that can be adapted within our own context so that we use land as a means of addressing poverty in our country.

Mr Speaker, in Uganda, they have gone a step further and developed a land tenure policy. Many countries on the African Continent are still struggling with land policies. Many do not have land policies.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

I have not delegated any of my powers to anyone.

Hon. Member, you may proceed.

Professor Lungwangwa: In Zambia, we are equally struggling with our land policy. We can only hope that the Executive will work very hard to ensure that we have a proper land policy in place to guide our traditional leaders and the development of land in our country. This is extremely important.

Mr Speaker, it is also extremely important to give a lot of attention to what our colleagues in Uganda have done. They have addressed that whole clause in the Constitution which states that land shall be owned in perpetuity by the President. We still have it. Ownership of land in our country, like in many other countries that were colonised, is still under the ownership of the presidency.  In Uganda, that provision has been changed. Land is in the hands of the people through their leaders at the traditional level. They have also been able to develop administrative systems which go all the way down to the districts where people participate in the ownership and management of land so that issues such as the one raised by Hon. Hamududu are addressed by the people. Therefore, if an investor comes, it is not the chief who will give huge chunks of land. It is the people who will have a say in how much can be given on what terms and conditions. This is important. I hope that the Executive can give a lot of attention to it.

Mr Speaker, finally, as a nation, we have, at least, moved one step forward in the Minerals Act, 2008. We have put in place a legal framework which enables our people to access some resources from those that are doing economic activities on their land. This is important and I hope that the Executive can go a step further to see how best our people can access the profits or the benefits of the resources that are on their land. For example, if a mining or oil company is able to discover resources on the land on which our umbilical cords are buried, should we be denied access to those resources? Can we not be partners or co-owners of the resources underground? I think that if we are to address issues of poverty, that is the direction to go.

If minerals or whatever other resources are discovered underground, those who are on that land should be co-owners in the companies which are exploiting that resource. That way, the people in Chasefu will be able to benefit from the resources which are discovered, be they diamonds …

The Deputy Chairperson: Do not bring in Chasefu as you conclude.

Laughter

Professor Lungwangwa: … or oil. Let them be co-owners in those companies like we saw in the United States of America with Hon. Brig-Gen Chituwo – for those who wanted to know which country it was. Once we do that, we shall be able to answer the question mark with which the African Continent is shaped and address the problems of poverty which we talk about every day.

With these few comments, I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, I will try to be very brief in my submission pertaining to the Motion that has been ably moved by Hon. Muteteka regarding the report of your Committee.

Mr Speaker, I would like to start my debate by referring to page 21 of your Committee’s report, vis-a-vis the observations and recommendations at (viii) and (ix). I would like to read these recommendations where the Committee laments through this House as follows:

“(viii)    although Lake Kariba is the key tourist attraction for the town, the entire lake is closed off by private properties except for two access points, making the waterfront inaccessible to the public. Therefore, for one to access the waterfront, one has to go to one of the lodges or properties along the lake.”

“(ix)    the development of the lake front is meaningless to the local people as there have been no benefits, but only negative effects. There are no benefits that are accruing to Siavonga and its residents as a result of this ‘investment’ along the lake out of which only two are Zambian.”{mospagebreak}

Mr Speaker, as a nation, we should always bear in mind that there were people who lost their lives and gave way for the construction of the Kariba Dam. These people were settled in very arid land without water. They were promised that as a result of the construction of the Kariba Dam, they would have access to water. Alas, this particular development that has taken place on the shores of the Kariba Dam has denied these people, who were evicted from their fertile lands and made to move to the hills where there is no water, their rights. As the situation is, these people have been denied the right of access to the lake, which is supposed to be theirs, as a result of their movement from that particular place. 

Mr Speaker, the situation in the Gwembe Valley is very volatile. We have to realise that those people gave up their ancestral land for the construction of the Kariba Dam. Right now, if they have to take their cattle to the lake, they have to pay rentals for them to have access to the water. It is very unfortunate. More so that successive Governments have never taken an active interest to ensure that the rights of the people of the Gwembe Valley are respected. The places where these people have been settled are almost inhabitable. 

Sir, we have added insult to the injuries that were inflicted on them. Even ordinary Zambians who want to visit the lake do not have direct access to it. You can only have access to the lake, which is a natural resource for the people of this country, if you are a resident at a lodge. It is very unfortunate that the lake is now owned by foreigners. They are the ones who have access to the waterfront. This is not the only place where this scenario is obtaining in Zambia. I heard the hon. Minister of Tourism and Art, the other day, talking about an investment which will be established on the banks of the Zambezi River. We have to realise that from the bridge, which is at the Victoria Falls, to Kazungula, the entire front of the Zambezi River has been taken by foreigners. Ordinary Zambians have no access to the river. All those who had access to the river in the past have been driven to very arid land.

Mr Speaker, is it a sin to be Zambian? Is it an offence for us, Zambians, to be called owners of this land? We do not have the basic human right of access to water. It will not be long before that scenario obtaining on the banks of the Zambezi River and Kariba obtain on Lake Tanganyika since we are already talking about the need to develop the Northern Circuit. All the plots are being given to foreigners. Very soon, all the Zambians who have been fishing on Lake Tanganyika and the other lakes in Luapula will have no access to these lakes. 

Mr Speaker, we, the Zambians, are so careless to the extent that we do not consider the plight of our people when coming up with development projects. Why are we so cruel to ourselves? Look at what is happening in the North-Western Province. We are talking about huge mining investments taking place in the North-Western Province. However, we are not looking at the plight of the people. Thousands of our people are being evicted from their traditional areas to give way to the mines without any benefit to the people. Why are we here, as leaders, if we cannot protect the interests of our people? We are proudly saying that investors are coming to Zambia. However, we are displacing our own people in Katuba. We have a situation where traditional leaders are giving away land carelessly and the people have no land anymore. If you drove from here to Chisamba, you would find that factories are coming up along the road. The local people have no access to the land anymore and very few people have benefited. Let us search our conscience and consider the plight of our people. Obviously, we want development in this country. However, let us come up with laws to ensure that our people are protected. Posterity will judge us harshly if we are careless. 

Mr Speaker, we are proudly saying that there are many tourists and people investing in the Lower Zambezi area without saying who those people are. Who are they? It is the foreigners. Why are we doing this? Land is a resource. If we give the land to our people, they can use it to negotiate with anyone who wants to invest in this country on an equal footing. However, what has happened is that all our people are now servants of the people who want to invest here. We have the land, which we can use to negotiate with whoever wants to invest in our country. Of course, it is too late for us to do this in some areas. However, we can still redress the situation in some areas to ensure that our people benefit from the land which was given to them by God.

Mr Speaker, the other issue which was raised by my colleague, the hon. Member of Parliament for Bweengwa, relates to Livingstone. I do not know whether my colleagues on your right are not aware that Livingstone will slowly become a ghost town. After the relocation of the provincial capital from Livingstone to Choma, a lot of buildings have been abandoned. Most shops at the famous Fallsway Park Mall have closed. I think there is only one restaurant now operating there because there is no business in Livingstone. 

Mr Speaker, most of the people used to go to Livingstone because that was the provincial headquarters. We have not endeavoured to provide alternative industries for the people of Livingstone, for it to continue looking the way it was looking when it was the provincial headquarters for the Southern Province. You are moving more than 1000 workers from Livingstone to Choma, without any corresponding investment for Livingstone. We are going back to the scenario where the textile industry in Livingstone closed and there was no employment whatsoever.

Sir, the Government buildings in Livingstone will just be a shell. There will be nobody using those buildings because the Government has decided to move everyone to Choma. I do not know why the Government wants to move the High Court to Choma. We can still have a High Court in Choma and retain the one in Livingstone also, like it is in Ndola and Kitwe. There is no need to close the High Court in Livingstone so that we take it to Choma. Even the policemen who were in Livingstone are being taken to Choma after having invested so much money in their infrastructure in Livingstone.

Mr Speaker, let us find a way of ensuring that other industries are put up in Livingstone if it has to retain the status of a city. Otherwise, it will be a ghost city. A lot of our people invested in Livingstone by establishing small lodges, building houses for rent, and so on and so forth. However, right now, there will be nobody to rent those houses in Livingstone because everybody has been moved by the Government without looking at the repercussions for the city. I hope that as we make decisions in future, we should also look at the repercussions.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Bwalya (Lupososhi): Mr Speaker, I thank you for this opportunity to debate the Motion on the Floor of the House. It is true, indeed, that posterity will judge us harshly if we do not handle the issue of land effectively, efficiently and for the benefit of the Zambian people.

Sir, I will look at pages 7, 8 and 9 of the report. The report raises pertinent issues regarding traditional or customary land. Indeed, there is a need for us to give well-defined guidelines regarding the administration of customary land. 

Mr Speaker, there are two issues which are of interest to me. On one hand, there are poverty levels and on the other hand, there is a need to safeguard our land, especially the land in rural areas. The poverty levels in this country have necessitated the parting away of land by traditional leaders because they need money in order to send their children to school and for survival. Unless and until we address the issues of poverty in rural areas, this issue may not be resolved.

As we embark on legal reforms, it must be borne in mind that there is need to address the poverty levels so that we can empower the various chiefdoms with something that will enable them to say no to the investors that come with very enticing proposals in order to access huge tracts of land. 

Mr Speaker, the legislation should include a situation whereby the land in rural areas which does not have titles, as earlier alluded to, must be given a certain document that we can rely on and use to access funds. In that way, the poverty levels will slowly, but surely, be addressed. If this is done, the people in rural areas will be able to use the funds that they have accessed to buy farm implements and be in a position to till the land efficiently such that they will produce enough for consumption and selling. 

Mr Speaker, we should also look at issues to do with those who acquire land and promise in the name of social responsibility to provide certain things to people in the rural areas. The people who are engaged in these practices have gone away with large tracts of land while only leaving behind small clinics for the people within the same areas. However, in the coming years, the people will be displaced and will have nowhere to go. We must see how best we can address this issue in the legislation which we shall come up with so that we can protect the people who gave us the mandate to rule.

Sir, on page 8, there is an issue regarding boundary maps. These boundary maps include the chiefdom ones which we have been talking about in this House. I think it is time that we made these boundary maps available so that people can know exactly where each chiefdom ends. It is these maps that will wipe out the boundary disputes between various chiefdoms. 

Mr Speaker, as we come up with legislation, the different ministries which are involved in the process of administering land in this country should take into account what I have said. We have the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs, which is a key stakeholder when it comes to customary land just like the Ministry of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection. 

Mr Speaker, there is a need to educate the chiefs on the value of the land and what it can do to better the lives of their subjects in their chiefdoms. More often than not, some chiefs may not know that what they are parting away with is what will make them very unpopular in future. My appeal is that we go down to the chiefdoms so that they buy into the legislation so that we can administer our land effectively and economically.

I thank you, Sir.

The Vice-President (Dr Scott): Mr Speaker, I wish to commend your Committee for a very lucid and insightful report. It highlights what is one of our major concerns as an administration and that is the chaos related to our land administration system. I think ‘chaos’ is not too strong a word to use in this case. We have a chaotic situation regarding land use, planning, allocation and ownership. We are losing out in many ways. For many years, this country had been running on a Lands Act that entertained the myth that land had no value. In 1995, under pressure from the donors, we introduced a new Lands Act which accepted that a hectare of land could have a certain value and could change hands. The theory there was that small-scale farmers would be able to earn money from their small holding under a 99-year lease but, in practice, that has not happened. That has not happened because councils have been charging expensive planning fees for anyone who wanted to convert the status of his or her land. What has happened is that a large amount of traditional land has been carpet-bagged, as they say in the USA. It has got owners from outside the area that are speculatively dealing in its buying and selling. I must emphasise, for the benefit of some the people who have spoken that land speculators come in all colours with all sorts of passports. To avoid doubt, I can name indigenous black Zambians who are holding on to enormous tracts of land, including senior officials from the Opposition.

Hon. Opposition Member: Who?

The Vice-President: You know yourself.

Laughter

The Vice-President: Yes, foreigners compound the problem. I agree with the hon. Member for Bweengwa who says that if we carry on with what we are doing, we will create another Zimbabwe-like situation in Zambia. However, I want to add that we can create a Zimbabwe-like problem through our own people without any help from foreigners. The foreigners may just come to compound the problem. To support what I am saying, I will give an example. The movement of people from the Sichifulo Game Management Area was not sanctioned by a foreigner. It was sanctioned by their own chief. However, it was the Government which found them where to settle. 

Mr Speaker, today, if the Zambia Wildlife Authority (ZAWA) tries to drive people from Chirundu to the Lower Zambezi National Park, they will find the road blocked by a land owner on the floor of the Zambezi Valley who is a Zambian. Regardless of the nationality, a speculator is a person who is seeking to get some advantage in one way or the other. Issues to do with mining rights were also raised. We had to undo several agreements that the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) Government entered into with Chief Mushili in order to ensure the interests of his people in the area where Kalumbila Mine is being constructed. They were better looked into. 

Professor Luo indicated assent.

The Vice-President: You can see the hon. Minister for Chiefs and Traditional Affairs is nodding her head vigorously because she has been given the task of compiling  the various demands of the people in that area. I do not think that, as an administration, we can be faulted for not caring about the welfare of the ordinary people.

I think, what we can say as an administration is that there is an obvious need for land reforms. Once we have our constitutional recommendations at the end of this month, we can start to address the questions related to land administration and ownership. The current way of doing things is not good. 

Mr Speaker, people say that, in Zambia, we get very low yields of maize in the rural areas. There are two reasons we get low yields of maize in rural areas. One is that a person obtains a piece of land to use when they have no time or money to grow a proper crop on it. However, they grow the crop anyway in order to show that they are using the land even when it yields no reasonable produce. Their fields yield not even a single bag which they can take to the headman.

Mr Muntanga indicated assent.

The Vice-President: Sir, the hon. Member for Kalomo Central is smiling and nodding his head because he knows that what I saying is true. Of course, if you grow maize really nicely on such a piece of land, you can get 10 tonnes of maize. What usually happens is that the people with the necessary resources go and see the headman to nyengelela him for that piece of land.

The Deputy Chairperson: I beg your pardon, what is nyengelela?

Laughter

The Vice-President: Such people just manipulate the situation so that the piece of land becomes their possession. Sometimes people get land by threatening to bewitch certain individuals. As long as the land looks good, a carpet-bagger will always be keen to come and take it away. These are some of the things that we need to address.

Sir, the hon. Member for Mumbwa has, sometimes, brought on the Floor of this House  questions regarding the invasion of the Mumbwa East Game Management Area. These issues are affecting relatives of Hon. Muntanga who come from Chikanta who pay the chiefs in order to take over land which is supposedly for game management. Similar things are happening in Itezhi-tezhi.

Sir, we can create enough trouble for ourselves without the involvement of foreigners. To put it in other words, even if we ban all foreigners from owning land, we can still create enough land-related problems for ourselves if we do not sit down to seriously analyse the land-related issues we are faced with. If you kick the foreigners off the Kariba Waterfront, Zambian speculators from town will come and take that land. It will not be the local people. Unless, we …

Mr Muntanga: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Reluctantly, a point of order is raised.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, is His Honour the Vice-President in order not to state that some of the land-related problems we are faced with are as a result of the fact that some of the people who are given land do not know what to do with it? They misuse it.  Is he in order not to mention this fact and that those who really need the land end up going to the wrong places.

  The Deputy Chairperson: The serious ruling is that His Honour the Vice-President is still on his feet and you do not know what he is going to say next. Proceed, His Honour the Vice-President?

Laughter

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, let me now talk about the issue of people not knowing what to do with land. I was once a councillor in Mpika District Council. I was also once an hon. Member of Parliament for Mpika Central. One day, there was a motion on the table that required us to award 15,000 ha of land to a small family of South Africans which came to camp in Mpika and had a sausage-making machine which they were using to feed sausages to the councillors.

Laughter

The Vice-President: The family wanted us to give it 15,000 ha of land. Chief Chikwanda had agreed to that proposal. So, I went to see the chief and told him that he could not give a piece of land of that size to people he did not know. He had not even asked the ACC, Interpol and the banks to find out who those people were, and yet he wanted to give them a place of land bigger than Shiwang’andu. The chief said that the land was small when he looked on the map. 

Laughter

The Vice-President: Mpika, itself, was only about an inch across. 

Mr Speaker, this pointed out the problem that our traditional leaders have no administrators to help them with land use planning. There is no point in asking a traditional leader to state whether 15,000 ha of land for some people from outside the country is enough or not. We are protected only by civic-minded people. 

The Zambia Development Agency (ZDA) had an application not too long ago from a Chinese company for 1,000,000 ha of land for the growing of Jatropha. Luckily, the ZDA sent back the application with a request that the Chinese company should place the comma in the right place because it was not possible for such a piece of land to be given to it. 

Laughter 

The Vice-President: The Chinese sent back the application, insisting on the 1,000,000 ha of land. A million hectares is enormous. Luckily, the ZDA turned down the request flatly. The ZDA could, however, have agreed because there is nothing in the law that says that it has to take the broader interest of the country into account whenever it is making decisions which are connected to the country’s land. Therefore, the management of land in this country is chaotic because of the lack of proper laws. I can tell you anecdotes until the cows come home or migrate to Mumbwa East. 

Laughter 

The Vice-President: Sir, all I can say is that we have taken on board everything that has been said by the Committee and by the hon. Members who debated the Motion. We do have a problem with our land management system which we intend to address once and for all.

Mr Speaker, I thank you. 

Mr Muteteka: Mr Speaker, I would like to acknowledge His Honour the Vice-President’s sentiments to the House that the report has been well-received and that its recommendations will be acted upon.  

I also want to acknowledge the sentiments which were expressed by Hon. Hamududu, Hon. Mwiimbu, Hon. Professor Lungwangwa and Hon. Bwalya. I am sure that the House has taken note of them. The Committee is grateful for all the contributions which were made. 

I thank you, Sir.

Question put and agreed to.     

ADJOURNMENT

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

_______

The House adjourned at 1243 hours until 1430 hours on Tuesday, 24th June, 2013.