DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE SECOND SESSION OF THE ELEVENTH ASSEMBLY

Friday, 12th July, 2013

The House met at 0900 hours 

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM 

PRAYER

__________

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

The Vice-President (Dr Scott): Mr Speaker, I rise to give the House some guidance as to the business it will consider next week. 

Mr Speaker, on Tuesday, 16th July, 2013, the Business of the House will commence with Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will debate a Motion to adopt the Report of the Public Accounts Committee on the Report of the Auditor-General for the financial year ended 31st December, 2011.

Sir, on Wednesday, 17th July, 2013, the Business of the House will commence with Questions. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. The House will then consider Private Members’ Motions, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will debate a Motion to adopt the Report of the Committee on Health, Community Development and Social Welfare on the Report of the Auditor- General on the Distribution of Medicines and Medical Supplies. 

Mr Speaker, on Thursday, 18th July, 2013, the Business of the House will begin with Questions. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will debate a Motion to adopt the Report of the Committee on Lands, Environment and Tourism on the Auditor-Generals Report on the Management of Museums in Zambia.

Mr Speaker, on Friday, 19th July, 2013, the Business of the House will commence with Hon. Muntanga’s last chance to ask His Honour the Vice-President a question. This will be followed by …

Mr Muntanga: If you will be there.

The Vice-President: If both of us will be there.

Laughter

The Vice-President: This will be followed by Questions. Thereafter, the House will deal with presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. After that, the House will debate a Motion to adopt the Report of the Auditor-General on the Accounts of Parastatal Bodies for the year ended 31st December, 2011.

Sir, on this day, all things being as expected, I intend to move a Motion to suspend the relevant Standing Orders to enable the House to complete all business on the Order Paper and, thereafter, adjourn sine die.

I thank you, Sir.

__________

MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

The Vice-President (Dr Scott): Mr Speaker, this is a statement on the activities of the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU) in recent weeks and months.

Mr Speaker, the performance of the 2012/2013 rainy season was mixed, with the northern parts of the country experiencing an early onset of rains in October, 2012, while the southern half experienced a late onset, November/December 2012, coupled with prolonged dry spells in the middle of the season that led to infestation of army worms. 

Sir, in light of the above, a need arose to conduct an in-depth vulnerability assessment to establish the extent of the problems and recommend appropriate interventions in forty-four districts of Central, Eastern, Lusaka, Luapula, Muchinga, North-Western, Southern and Western provinces.

Mr Speaker, the assessment used scientific approaches in the collection of data. A total of 6,600 households in 660 standard enumeration areas (SEAs) in forty-four districts were assessed. The findings of the assessment include the following: 

Agriculture and Food Security

The majority of maize-producing areas recorded a significant drop in the production of cereal, with the Southern Province recording the largest production drop of around 21 per cent mainly due to the late start of the season and erratic rainfall and, as a consequence, a total of 209,000 people, which is equivalent to 35,000 households, are to be provided with food support, amounting to 12, 570 metric tonnes. For the House’s information, this is about double the amount that was distributed in eighteen districts in the last equivalent period of eight months, starting 1st August, 2013, to the end of March, 2014. 

Mr Speaker, 20 per cent of the caseload is under general food distribution for the chronically vulnerable and 80 per cent food for work. This is basically free maize. If the people are capable of doing something in the way of road repairs, school building or something of the sort, we ask them to work. It is not very onerous for 20 per cent of the caseload that is not fit for work to be given free to food.

The Government, through the DMMU, will monitor the evolution of the food security situation in eighteen other districts on the borderline and also those targeted for food support. The Government will also monitor other areas with chronic food security problems and ensure that no vulnerable communities go without food when the country has adequate maize stocks.

Human Habitation and Shelter

Sir, the assessment established that 4 per cent of households in the districts affected by the floods were displaced. This translates into a total of 345 households, that is, over 2,000 people in three districts, namely Chibombo, Mumbwa and Zambezi. 

Mr Speaker, early warning information, which is information distributed or put out before the onset of the season, was received by 67 per cent of the targeted population. However, only 23 per cent of the people indicated having acted on this information. For example, by planting early or planting early-maturing varieties of maize and warning neighbours of the impeding hazard. In other words, poor rains were forecast, but there was very little adaptation to that forecast. These findings indicate that the utilisation of early-warning information remains low. 

Educational Facilities

Mr Speaker, the assessment established that thirty-seven schools in fourteen districts were damaged due to storms during the 2012/2013 rainy season. These figures, however, do not include many schools in other districts that were damaged during previous rainy seasons and have not yet been worked on. It is, therefore, necessary that the Government reviews the current mode of construction and rehabilitation of schools. 

Infrastructure (Roads and Bridges)

Mr Speaker, the Roads Development Agency (RDA) In-depth Technical Assessment was also carried out at the same time as the Vulnerability Assessment Committee (VAC) Assessment. This will be an appendix to the report which is going to be distributed to all hon. Members. The RDA Technical Assessment established that 326 roads and bridges were in need of reinstatement as a result of the 2012/2013 floods. 

Sir, I will be very grateful if hon. Members can take special note of the fact that most of the road infrastructure that was damaged in the previous rainy seasons had not been worked on and its condition had further deteriorated. This is evident from the total number of road infrastructure sites to be worked on and the corresponding increase in the resources required. 

Way Forward

Mr Speaker, as you are aware, the VAC process has been going on for a while now. However, the Government has noted that the VAC processes have not adequately influenced policy change, decision making and programming in the various sectors in ministries and, therefore, have not been able to draw a line between what should be considered as an emergency response and normal development activities. This has led to most of the recommendations being brought out in the assessment reports being of routine or fundamentally developmental issues which should be undertaken by the appropriate sectors in development planning. 

Mr Speaker, hon. Members of Parliament have a habit of coming to the DMMU because they think that the procurement is easier and faster. Regular developmental issues are starting to come to the DMMU and this is putting a lot of strain on it, as it is not dealing solely with disasters. 

Sir, there is a need for appropriate sectors to tap from other available funds such as the Climate Change Funds in order to build climate resilient infrastructure so as to avoid bringing out infrastructure rehabilitation recommendations in an emergency report. The above situation has been compounded by the absence of disaster risk reduction annual budget lines in most of our ministries despite the mainstreaming of disaster risk management in the Sixth National Development Plan (SNDP). 

Mr Speaker, I have, therefore, directed the DMMU to engage other sectors, especially the Ministry of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education and the RDA in order to look into the increasing number of cases being handed over to the DMMU instead of the mandated ministries. This directive includes the following solutions:

(a)start preparations immediately to disengage the DMMU from development issues and ensure that relevant ministries take up their full responsibility. The DMMU will, therefore, only intervene in emergencies and disasters whilst the mandated sector will thereafter attend to the developmental sector; and

(b)embark on orientation workshops for districts and provincial authorities, including hon. Members of Parliament, to explain the mandate of the DMMU. This, I hope, will reduce the number of misdirected cases. 

Mr Speaker, lastly, I wish to appeal to all hon. Members of Parliament, the District Commissioners (DCs) and the country at large to refrain from requesting the DMMU to automatically intervene in almost any occurrence. This will allow the DMMU to concentrate on its mandate, as stipulated in the Disaster Management Act No. 13 of 2010. 

Sir, four hon. Members are slated to receive food aid, starting on 1st of August, 2013. This includes three districts in Central Province, namely Chibombo, Itezhi-tezhi and Mkushi, including Mkushi South, of course, which is the Mailoni country. In Luapula Province, it is Nchelenge, which I guess is Kilwa Island,. 

Mr Mpundu: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Sir, we also have Lusaka, Chongwe and Luangwa. In Chongwe, we have the Luano Valley and Luangwa, as it is a dry area. In Muchinga Province, we have Isoka and Mafinga. In the Southern Province, there are several districts. These are Pemba, Kalomo, Mazabuka, Chikankata which, of course, is normally a maize belt, and Monze, Namwala and Siavonga which are not really maize-growing areas. In the Western Province, we have Lukulu, Sesheke and Mwandi. 

Dr Kaingu: Well done!

Laughter

The Vice-President: I had to slip it in to please you.

Laughter

The Vice-President: Sir, we have a list of districts which have been placed under monitoring although, of course, we are on the lookout for all districts, but the ones that we suspect may turn into deficiency areas are as follows. 

Province            District

Central             Mumbwa 
Luano 
Shibuyunji 
Eastern             Lundazi
                 Mambwe 
Nyimba 
Lusaka             Chirundu 
North-Western         Zambezi 
Southern            Choma 
Kazungula 
Sinazongwe 
Zimba (to add to that already long list)
Western             Kalabo 
Mitete
Nalolo
Senanga
Sikongo 
Sioma     (even though it is very clear from the soil and rainfall in these areas that God never intended the people living in those areas to be growing maize. He intended them to grow bulrush millet and sorghum but, somehow, we have missed the message.)

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the statement given by His Honour the Vice-President.

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo kept indicating.

Laughter

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo (Mumbwa): Mr Speaker, I would like to thank His Honour the Vice-President for that comprehensive statement. The people of Mumbwa and I would like to know when …

Mr Mbewe: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, you have guided this House through and through but, to my surprise, it seems the Executive does not heed your advice. His Excellency the President advised us, the Opposition, to ask the Executive questions which should be answered honourably. If there is anybody from the Executive who wants to challenge me, I am ready to ring the President and report him/her.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, is the Government in order to misinform the House through the hon. Minister of Youth and Sport over the Council of Southern African Football Association (COSAFA) Senior Challenge Games which are taking place in the country. On 5th July, 2013, the hon. Member for Milanzi asked the hon. Minister of Youth and Sport as follows: 

“Mr Speaker, this is a very important tournament and it will expose our players and referees. How many Zambian referees will officiate at the games?”

Sir, in response, the hon. Minister of Youth and Sport, Hon. Kambwili, stated as follows:

“Mr Speaker, eight Zambian referees are going to officiate at the games.

“I thank you, Sir.”

Mr Speaker, I was given this journal which I will lay on the Table. When I went through it, to my surprise, I found that that there are only three referees …

Hon. Opposition Member: No, one referee and two assistants.
    
Mr Mbewe: There is only one referee and two assistants, and this can be confirmed on page 23 of your report.

Hon. Members: The others are assistants.

Laughter

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, is the Government in order to give us conflicting information on this very important tournament. Is it in order to misinform the public about the refereeing?

I need your serious ruling, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Bufi, boza.

Mr Mbewe laid the paper on the Table.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

I will request His Honour the Vice-President to clarify this matter in the course of next week.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, following the heavy floods in the last rainy season, the people of Mumbwa are anxiously waiting to know when the collapsed houses, washed-away maize fields and, most importantly, the washed-away embankments of the two dams, namely Butiti and Kamwanga will be repaired.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, as soon as possible.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Antonio (Kaoma Central): Mr Speaker, Kaoma is known to be one of the biggest producers of maize in the Western Province but, in the last season, people in some parts of Kaoma lost their crops because of floods. Why has the DMMU not considered including the people of Kaoma who lost their crops through the floods on the list for relief food?
 
The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I am not party to every square metre of Zambia.

Laughter

The Vice-President: I am not familiar with that issue. I can pass it on or if the hon. Member of Parliament looks at the big fat report which will be distributed in the pigeon holes, hopefully today but, certainly, by Tuesday, he will find the information in there. That is all I can say.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Professor Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Mr Speaker, in his statement, His Honour the Vice-President told the House that utilisation of early warning information is extremely low at 23 per cent in the targeted areas. What, exactly, is the problem? Is it because the early warning information is not early enough or the digestion of the information delivered is low. Whichever the case is, what is the Office of the Vice-President doing about it?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, we can only try to change people’s mindset on that. Traditionally, people do not believe in long-term weather forecasts. I remember, in 1992, when the entire crop south of Mkushi failed, the climatologists came to me afterwards and told me that they knew that was going to happen. I asked them why they did not, at least, tell us and they said they were not sure of their modeling. So, there is a long tradition of people forecasting the wrong thing. It is meteorology after all, and the weather forecast is not necessarily done from Mount Sinai in most cases. I think people also possibly lack the flexibility. However, I will certainly consult on this issue. Like we did with the issue of army worms, we distributed seed early because we knew that the planting was going to be late. With the early warning forecasts predicting a short season, we should also be making sure that the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP) concentrates on the distribution of early varieties of seed. There are various ways forward, but it is very difficult to turn them into a science. I think, that is the basic problem.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Simbao (Senga Hill): Mr Speaker, I followed His Honour the Vice-President’s statement very attentively, and I did not hear him mention Senga Hill Constituency as an area that has problems in terms of maize harvest this year. I do not understand why areas such as Chilundumunze, Vudoka, Tazunka and Chivuta that have a big problem of hunger have not been mentioned. I would like to know why Senga Hill has not been included in the statement.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I mentioned that the Northern Province had been excluded from the survey, but this will be taken up in a matter of days. That allegation and those names in particular will be taken note of or have already been taken note of by the DMMU.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Muchima (Ikeleng’i): Mr Speaker, His Honour the Vice-President, in his statement, clearly indicated that the Government would like the line ministries to be involved in the issues of disasters. Not long ago, if I can remember, last week, when the hon. Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education talked about the issue of blown up roofs, he referred us to the DMMU. We are now getting confused. His Honour the Vice-President is referring us to the line ministries, and the line ministries are referring us to the DMMU. I would like His Honour the Vice-President to clearly indicate where we should go to when we have such problems. This is because mitigation should come in where the budget line has limitations. I am very happy with the Ministry of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education and what is happening at the Evelyn Hone College. When there is a problem …

Mr Speaker: You have completed your question, I suppose, …

Mr Muchima: I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: … and you are now commenting.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I think, the issue is one of urgency. If you are talking about a road which needs rehabilitation because it has not been worked on for some years, that is the responsibility of the RDA, provincial or district  administration, whereas a bridge that is washed away in the course of very heavy rains becomes the responsibility of the DMMU. Of course, the dividing line is not very sharp. However, there has been a tendency for encroachment, if I can be allowed to use that word, of the regular procurement and development procedures being pushed on to the DMMU which is feeling the stress. If we decide, as the Government, to give more work to the DMMU, we can do that. We see roads in Zambia that we know are about to be washed away or with trees growing through them and we know that the tar is being eroded, but action is not taken. So, we would like to see preventative maintenance and routine development undertaken by the relevant ministries. However, we accept emergencies as our problem.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

Mr Mufalali (Senanga): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from His Honour the Vice-President why the DMMU sometimes takes long to intervene even after being informed about a disaster. I have in mind Kakenge, Tepa, Lweumba and Munguli bridges that were washed away some time back and, again, in the 2012/2013 rainy season. Why does the DMMU take materials on site, then later abandon the project completely? 

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I only have the hon. Member’s word for what happens. However, since this is tantamount to an allegation, I will check on it and give him the answer in the last session of the Vice-President’s Question Time. 

I thank you, Sir. 

 Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Speaker, the problem of drought affects maize-growing areas and not much those that grow cassava, finger millet and so on and so forth. Why is it that every time there is a drought in some maize-growing areas, the DMMU runs to areas that do not grow maize but cassava? Why have you left Kalomo out because there are many areas there that need relief food?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I am surprised by that question because the hon. Member for Liuwa was claiming that the hon. Member for Kalomo Central is as large as he is because of all the mealie-meal that he has consumed in his life. 

Laughter 

The Vice-President: Meanwhile, those of us who are nutritionists know that it is all the sour milk that he has consumed in his life that has done the job.

Laughter 

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, if the hon. Member had been listening attentively, he would have heard that Kalomo District, with an affected population estimate of 19,000, is slated for over 1,000 tonnes of relief food. This is open to expansion should the monitoring show that Kalomo, as one of the major centres, needs the relief food.

Hon. UPND Member interjected.

The Vice-President: Yes, I know. I made allusions to what the Western Province is doing by eating maize which it cannot grow. 

However, this is a different issue that we, perhaps, will attend to one day. Areas like Namwala and Siavonga in the Southern Province are not maize-growing areas. So, we can expect to supply maize there every year using the current system. If the hon. Member will help me, we can settle down and see whether we can have more rationality. 

Mr Speaker, I know that even in 1992 when we were importing all our maize, the ratios for the favourite dish in Mongu were one third cassava, one third bulrush millet and one third maize. This was what they called ‘Guy Scott’, … 

Laughter 

The Vice-President: … but it seems to have grown even further the same way. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Lufuma (Kabompo West): Mr Speaker, I do not know whether I heard His Honour the Vice-President correctly but, I think, he only mentioned Zambezi District as a target for relief food in the North-Western Province. 

Mr Speaker, even though the rains in the North-Western Province came early, they also stopped early. Therefore, there is a lot of hunger in Kabompo, Mwinilunga and Kasempa districts. I would like to know whether these areas will also be surveyed.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, Zambezi District is under scrutiny, again, for reasons similar to the rest of the west of the country where the crops grown are mostly rice and cassava and what is being surveyed is the availability of maize. 

Again, Sir, I wish to take the questioner’s advice and check the specific districts mentioned and report on them.

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Ntundu (Gwembe): Mr Speaker, you might not see me here at Parliament in the next sitting of this House.

Hon. Government Members: Why?

Mr Ntundu: Mr Speaker, my people and I are making canoes for us to cross over into Zimbabwe to settle there. 

Laughter 

Mr Speaker: Order!

Just write me a letter and I will inform His Excellency the President accordingly. 

You may proceed. 

Laughter 

Mr Ntundu: Mr Speaker, His Honour the Vice-President is well aware that during the construction of the Lake Kariba Dam, the people of Gwembe were displaced to the mountains and are still there. My house in Munyumbwe is at the edge of a mountain. 

Mr Speaker, the people of Gwembe have no land to grow maize, but I have not heard His Honour the Vice-President talk about taking relief maize there. How are we going to live in Gwembe? I want him to clarify whether we should continue making canoes to cross over into Zimbabwe to settle there.  

Laughter 

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I am surprised to hear that there is land in Zimbabwe in the Gwembe Valley to settle on. I am just as surprised that the people of Gwembe are taking their hon. Member of Parliament with them.  

Laughter

The Vice-President: What will be his standing in Zimbabwe? I presume he will be an illegal immigrant and not a Member of Parliament.  

Laughter 

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the DMMU is listening to these proceedings and all the issues being raised by individual hon. Members will be answered. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Mutelo: (Lukulu West): Mr Speaker, I want to thank His Honour the Vice-President for ably elaborating this issue.

I would like to know, on behalf of the general public, whether the relief food is for political expediency or for the entire nation.

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Mutelo: Mr Speaker, if His Honour the Vice-President will recall, Lupui and Kakwacha have not received any relief food to date because the maize was diverted on political lines. I would like him to state this clearly to the nation. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, this is a very strange question. 

We know that there were some rumours about where maize was being diverted to during the Lukulu West By-election. However, that by-election is past and what is more, the PF lost. 

Mr Speaker, we still have Lukulu on the list with an affected population of 6,700 people and the tonnage of maize slated is 404. I do not know what the hon. Member is asking about. What political agenda can we have for places such as Washishi? What is our political agenda once that by-election is over?

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, there is no pride in receiving relief food. 

Sir, the Southern Province has become drought-prone. The Government has been promising that it will initiate irrigation schemes in the province by ensuring that dams are constructed to mitigate the effects of drought. When will the Government fulfill the good promises that were made on the Floor of this House?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, when the very large amounts of funds required for that project are made available. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Bwalya (Lupososhi): Mr Speaker, offices of DCs are well-located, as they are geographically close to most of the disaster areas. Can His Honour the Vice-President indicate whether it would not be wise to let the offices of the DCs manage the budget line for food distribution …
 
Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Bwalya: … since they are better placed to react to such disasters?  

Sir, the budget line can have a clear defined threshold of the amount that DCs can lay their hands on to ensure that emergencies are attended to quickly.  

The Vice-President: No, Mr Speaker, I do not believe that the solution to this problem …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: … lies in giving the responsibility of food distribution to the DCs or any other government administration. The current model of DMMU food relief is based upon the one that evolved in 1992, with very expert guidance from the World Food Programme (WFP), United Nations Development Programme (UNDP) and various other parties. It is a relationship between non-governmental organisations (NGOs) on the ground and the Government that stores and supplies the basic maize. We like having one step away from political consideration and that is the way it should remain.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr I. Banda (Lumezi): Mr Speaker, does the DMMU have any plans to keep strategic relief food ready by October for distribution by February and March, considering that areas such as Chief Mwanya, Kazembe and the valley are inaccessible during the rainy season?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I cannot answer the question about the Luangwa Valley because I do not have the specific information on the areas mentioned. However, the general principle of storing maize is applied across the country.

I thank you, Sir.

_________

HIS HONOUR THE VICE-PRESIDENT’S QUESTION TIME

Mrs Mazoka (Pemba): Mr Speaker, the name given to the new stadium in Lusaka has been rejected by the people and, indeed, by us in this House.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Mazoka: What is the Executive doing to address the concerns of the stakeholders?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

The Vice-President (Dr Scott): Mr Speaker, the Executive must be given some time to listen to the voice of the people as well as it must also have time to sleep and eat like the rest of the people.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: It is not an instant responder to everything that comes up.

Nevertheless, Sir, on the question of the name of the stadium, I would say two things. Firstly, although the name is a mouthful, even if it sticks, people will not refer to its full name. They will say the Gabon Stadium or the Heroes Stadium.

Interruptions

Mr Livune: Why do you want Gabon to be mentioned?

Interruptions

The Vice-President: So, …

Mr Speaker: Order!

The Vice-President: That is how it works. The Dag Hammarskjöld Stadium was the Dag Hammarskjöld Memorial Stadium and nobody ever called it that. So, I think it is not quite the crisis that is being made out to be. However, by all means, people have every right even to bring a Private Member’s Motion on this subject …

Hon. Opposition Members: Next Wednesday!

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order on the left!

The Vice-President: … and force the hand of the Executive. This is a democracy. Whatever you say or whatever some of your newspapers say, it is a democracy and you can express your views and we shall listen.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mbulakulima (Chembe): Mr Speaker, on 7th March, 2013, His Honour the Vice-President updated the House on the Access to Information Bill and the measures the Government was taking. In your own words, you said:

“At this stage, a Cabinet Memorandum has been drafted and delivered to Cabinet Office today, 7th March, 2013. I want to assure the nation, through this august House, that the Government remains committed to enacting the Access to Information Bill, but we are estimating, at the moment, that we will be able to table the Bill in June. This is the timetable we are working towards.”

In view of this, what do you say to this House, taking into account that it is rising next week. Is it your usual somersaulting? I want an answer from His Honour the Vice-President.

Laughter

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I think that was an expression of hope. The Cabinet approved the draft of the Bill, it is now due to go to the Sub-committee of the Cabinet on Legislation and from there it will go back for ratification by the Cabinet itself and then for presentation. So, I regret it is probably not possible that it will come within the lifetime of this particular session. However, we are processing it, it is proceeding and, with all the pain of following the Government procedures, we have to live with it.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, His Honour the Vice-President earlier mentioned to the House that this year the production of maize is low and that there is a need to have a contingency to provide for relief food. Arising from the statement that has been made by His Honour the Vice-President and the statement that was made by the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Livestock on the purchase of maize in our constituencies, is His Honour the Vice-President aware that the little maize that has been produced in the various constituencies is being bought by private buyers and that, by the time the Food Reserve Agency (FRA) decides to purchase maize, there will be nothing to buy and, as a result, there will be no food security in this country? When is the FRA going to start purchasing the little maize that has been produced by the farmers?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, some money has already been released to the FRA and purchasing is proceeding. The problem, of course, is that in the northern half of the country, the percentage of moisture is still too high to store the maize. 

Sir, I think the hon. Member should not be too alarmed. The private buyers, of which they are now many in Zambia, and there are serious international buyers as well, can always sell to the FRA and the FRA can always secure from them. However, more to the point, the FRA is specialised in getting out to the more distant areas that are less attractive to the commercial buyer. I believe that in the north and north-western part of the country, there are significant quantities of maize. So, I do not think the time for ringing alarm bells has come yet.

Mr Speaker, I was on the border with Malawi the other day, inspecting the illegal traffic between the two countries. There are taxi ranks on both sides of the border and there is a team of cyclists that moves backwards and forwards, bringing sugar in from Malawi and taking other commodities like fertiliser out to Malawi, but there was no traffic in maize at all. So, I was quite encouraged by that.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mushanga (Bwacha): Mr Speaker, may His Honour the Vice-President inform this House and the country at large what has necessitated the Government to close the Evelyn Hone College of Applied Arts and Commerce for two weeks, and yet it is supposed to be closing in two weeks according to its calendar?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, there has been rioting at the Evelyn Hone College Arts and Commerce and seventy students have been arrested and are being screened at the moment. Damage has been done to the infrastructure there. Plumbing and windows have been damaged and so we have to clean up the mess.

Hon. Opposition Members: That is unparliamentary.

Interruptions

The Vice-President: It is most unfortunate that we cannot keep the college open with seventy students …

Mr Speaker: His Honour the Vice-President, the word ‘mess’ is not part of our vocabulary. 

The Vice-President: Sorry, what word is that, Sir?

Mr Speaker: The word ‘mess’.

The Vice-President: Oh, ‘mess’ is not part …

Laughter

The Vice-President: Sir, normally I would say kafwafwa but, I think, …

Laughter

Mr Speaker: You would have to give me an interpretation for that.

Laughter

The Vice-President: Sir, maybe, I will use the English alternative which is kafuffle. We have to sort out the resulting kafuffle. Therefore, the college has been closed as of this morning, and the students have been sent home. 

I apologise for my familiarity with slang.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Musonda (Kapiri Mposhi): Mr Speaker, I would like to know when the stretch on the Great North Road, which was ripped by the contractor, will be repaired. This stretch has now become a security risk to motorists, especially at night.

Hon. MMD Members: Very good.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, we will do a patch job on it as soon as possible. That is, in the next few weeks and then we will make the permanent repairs. We are aware of the risks of motorists, including hon. Ministers who, I believe, have been robbed on that stretch at night. So, we are aware of the problem and we are responding to it.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Speaker, last year, I asked about the need to ensure that there is proper staffing at the Ministry of Health. When is your Government going to put in place a proper establishment and reduce on the number of people taking up acting positions? Nearly everybody in Government is acting in some position.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I think that question justifies a statement from the Ministry of Health. I, obviously, do not have the numbers of how many people are acting in positions and how many are permanent employees. So, if the hon. Member wants me to answer that question, he should give me notice of the question. Otherwise, I will pass it on to the Ministry of Health and the hon. Minister of Health may make a statement, maybe, next week, with your indulgence.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Katambo (Masaiti): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out what the latest development on the rehabilitation of silos in the nine provinces is, excluding Muchinga which was recently created. Maize usually goes to waste every season besides having …

Mr Speaker: You have asked a question, so, what are you doing now?

Mr Katambo: Sir, what is the latest development on the rehabilitation of silos because the Bwana Mkubwa silos on the Copperbelt are in a dilapidated state?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I do not know. It is not information that I have at my finger tips and, if you will not allow the use of …

Mr Muntanga: He does not know!

Mr Speaker: Order, order! 

The Vice-President: Sir, we have not yet got to a point where we are allowing the use of computers in this House so that I can look this up on Google. I will consult the Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock and then I will provide an answer to the question next Friday.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Lufuma (Kabompo West): Mr Speaker, today, is a kafwafwa day. I would like to refer to the Gabon air disaster. 28th April, this year, marked the twentieth anniversary of the Gabon air disaster. There have been three or four administrations down the line and no report has been received on it. I would like to know if this Government is going to release the report on the Gabon disaster.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, there are reasons for not releasing it.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

Mr Kunda (Muchinga): Mr Speaker, demonstrations by students in various learning institutions are now the order of the day. This Government has failed to address the issues that the students are raising. I would like to know when the Government is going to deal with the many issues that it is failing to address …

Hon. Government Members: Which issues?

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member for Muchinga, your question is vague.

Mr Kunda: Sir, the issues of allowances, accommodation and many others. I would like to know when the Government is going to deal with these issues.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, we deal with them as a matter of routine. For example, the Evelyn Hone College of Applied Arts and Commerce students were saying they wanted in increase in allowances. This has been noted, but we cannot just respond like automata. We have a lot of demands from a lot of corners of the country from 13 million people and, just because some people are well fed and noisy, you cannot simply decide that they are going to be given a priority. This is not how a democracy works. On the issue of accommodation at the Evelyn Hone College of Applied Arts and Commerce, to give a specific example, there is a hostel being constructed this year. So, projects progress at the rate that the resources of the country can allow. We cannot be expected to keep responding simply because people are acting lawlessly or unruly. Every Government has to make a stand on the resources that are available.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Livune (Katombola): Mr Speaker, this honourable House rejected the candidature of Justice Chibesakunda as Chief Justice for the Republic of Zambia. Is it not indiscipline of the highest order or arrogance by the Executive to insist on having the Acting Chief Justice in that office against the wish of this House and the people of Zambia?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I seek your guidance whether I am free to answer that question in its totality or whether I am restricted because it is before the court. The Law Association of Zambia (LAZ) has the case in court. So, I seek your guidance on that.

Interruptions

Mr Livune: Which court?

Mr Musukwa: Imwe, mulekeni umusungu aasuke.

Mr Speaker: His Honour the Vice-President, I think you are free to respond to the question. If there are limitations in answering the question, you are equally at liberty to express those limitations. However, you must answer the question.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, firstly, it was a Select Committee which decided that it was illegal to appoint a Chief Justice. Secondly, there is no illegality that I am aware of in employing anybody as a justice or Chief Justice on contract. She is on contract at the moment and, as far as I am aware, there are no plans coming from anywhere to end that situation.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwezi): Mr Speaker, some of the local authorities in the Western Province are not collecting enough revenue because the Barotse Royal Establishment (BRE) is also collecting revenue. What is the Government doing to ensure that the two groups, the BRE in particular, are removed and allow the local authorities to collect maximum revenue to develop the province?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, there are two ministries involved there. Of course, there is the Ministry of Local Government and Housing, which deals with the local government structure of Zambia in the case of individual districts, then there are the royal establishments with the Indunas and so on and so forth. For a long time, both have been trying to raise revenue. The matter is, of course, one for negotiation between the two ministries involved. That is the Ministry of Local Government and Housing, and the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs. I do not think that we can be expected to go in there and abolish the BRE. It is certainly not our intention and we will continue to hold negotiations between the two types of authority. This has been going on for a very long time, and I do not think we can bring it to a rapid end.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Miyanda (Mapatizya): Mr Speaker, having taken into consideration the ups and downs that Zambeef Products plc is going through at the moment, is the Government not considering lifting the ban on the movement of livestock from the Southern Province for sale to Lusaka markets?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I am not aware that the situation regarding the spread of foot and mouth disease, particularly and also contagious bovine pleural pneumonia (CBPP) has in any way changed or been changed by the Zambeef situation. If it is a technical issue, then it should be directed to the Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock to answer. However, it is not for the Government to respond to the kafuffle involving one commercial company. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Matafwali (Bangweulu): Mr Speaker, what is the Government’s position on the rumoured transfer of the headquarters for Zambia Railways Limited from Kabwe to Lusaka?

Hon. Opposition Members: They are just rumours.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, Zambia Railways Limited can be divided into two parts. One is the corporate headquarters, which is the board, chief executive officer and other senior staff and the rest are the workshops, operations offices and so on so forth. As I am aware, the operations offices will remain located in Kabwe. The workshops, trains and engineers will still be there. It is the headquarters; the very top bit, that are moving to Lusaka so that we can keep a careful eye on them.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Simfukwe (Mbala): Mr Speaker, there are serious complaints from fishermen in Mpulungu and Mbala around Lake Tanganyika about cheap breams that are allowed to be imported into Zambia. There are kiosks selling very low-priced breams from China. Why has the Government allowed the importation of cheap fish into Zambia when millions of Zambians depend on this business?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, considering that the hon. Member’s party was, of course, the instigator of the importation of this fish from China …

Mr Mbewe interjected.

Mr Speaker: Order, order!

That is disorder. 

His honour the Vice-President can continue.

The Vice-President: This did not start on the Patriotic Front’s (PF) watch, but now that the issue has been raised, I am grateful to the hon. Member for raising it because it is a matter of potential concern since it affects our people. As far as I am aware, the European Union (EU) does not allow the importation of the same tilapia fish from China. So, I will have the matter looked into and report to the House. 

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwale: Ndiye kuyanka, uko.

Mr Hamudulu (Siavonga): Sir, if there is no illegality in keeping the Chief Justice in that office as long as she is on contract, what was the rationale behind bringing the issue to this House?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, it was a routine procedure except that …

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

The Vice-President: … there arose a difference of opinion.

Hon. Government Members: Yes!

The Vice-President: So, it has been most appropriate to keep her on contract.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sianga (Sesheke Central): Mr Speaker, why is it that whenever there are Provincial Development Co-ordinating Committee (PDCC) meetings, district commissioners are given transport and accommodation refunds, but hon. Members of Parliament are not?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, to me, that is very close to discussing ourselves and our rights. We have allowances, as hon. Members of Parliament, that enable us to travel in our provinces and districts and it seems to me …

Hon. Opposition Members interjected.

Mr Speaker: Order!

That is his response, whether you like it or not.

The Vice-President: If hon. Members do not like my response, then they are free to take it up with the appropriate parliamentary Committee. However, I think whether hon. Members of Parliament should be paid allowances or not by the Government is a parliamentary privileges issue. In my opinion, this seems to be wrong. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr L. J. Ngoma (Sinda): Mr Speaker, what benefits is the PF Administration deriving from the cancellation and withdrawal of the Fourth Republican President’s passport? Further, is it morally, spiritually and culturally appropriate for His Honour the Vice-President to refer to the former Republican President, Mr Rupiah Bwezani Banda, as a chap?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President started perusing the dictionary.

Interruptions 

Mr Speaker: Order, order!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, for the benefit of the questioner, ‘chap’, used as a noun, is outdated, that is to say it is a bit out of fashion in English, but it is a friendly form of address between men.

Laughter 

Mr Speaker: Are you through?

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order, order!

The Vice-President: So, I do not …

Mr Speaker: His Honour the Vice-President, let us secure some silence before you proceed, however long it will take.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Let us have order.

The Vice-President: So, Mr Speaker, it is not only morally and spiritually defensible, but is also linguistically defensible, and I want to thank the hon. Chap for asking the question.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter 

Mr Speaker: Let me just provide guidance. As much as it is permitted, I believe that is in the Oxford dictionary …

The Vice-President showed assent.

Mr Speaker: … but, by my office, it is unparliamentary.

Laughter 

Mr Speaker: That is my ruling.

Mr Milambo (Mwembeshi): Mr Speaker …

Mr Mwale: What about the issue of the passport?

Mr Speaker: Sorry, the dimension relating to the passport has not been addressed.

Mr L. J. Ngoma interjected.

Mr Speaker: Order, order!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I answered that in some detail last week.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Milambo: Mr Speaker, the price of a 50 kg bag of maize has been kept constant for over three years …

Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised. This is very unusual given the limitations of time, but I will permit it.

Mr Nkombo: Sir, I am truly sorry and thank you for permitting this point of order. 

Mr Speaker, His Honour the Vice-President, when responding to the question raised by the hon. Member of Parliament for Siavonga, indicated that the act of bringing the name of Judge Chibesakunda to this Parliament for ratification was a matter of mere routine. As I raise my point of order, I would like to quote from the Constitution because, as far as I have been alive, I have always known that the appointment, whether by contract or pension, to certain constitutional offices, is a constitutional matter. I want to quote the Constitution which is the grand norm of the land of Zambia. Part VI, Article 93 (2) reads:

“The judges of the Supreme Court shall, subject to ratification by the National Assembly, be appointed by the President.”

Sir, as you make a ruling on this point of order, I would be happy to also learn from His Honour the Vice-President what the length of the contract of Judge Chibesakunda is and when it was entered into. 

Is His Honour the Vice-President in order to mislead this House that the bringing of a name of a prospective constitutional office holder to this House for ratification is mere routine? 

I seek your ruling and am sorry to interrupt the Vice-President’s Question Time by raising this point of order.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: My ruling on this subject, given the context in which it has been raised as well as the subject matter itself and also the collateral or subsidiary questions, is that you file in a question for oral answer. I have addressed this point before. I think this is the third time I am doing so. If you want a clear response from the Executive, file in a question for oral answer.

The hon. Member for Mwembeshi may continue.

Mr Milambo: Mr Speaker, the price of a 50 kg bag of maize has been kept constant at K65 for over three years now. May His Honour the Vice-President explain to the farmers out there why this price has been kept constant.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, it is basically because the subsidised price of fertiliser was kept constant. The price of K65 for a 50 kg bag of maize was matched with the input price of a 50 kg bag of fertiliser. I am quite prepared to concede and, in fact, it has to be discussed in Cabinet and so on and so forth. With the price of fertiliser going up for the next season, the price of a 50 kg bag of maize needs to be increased too.

I thank you, Sir.

Interruptions

Mr Mwanza (Solwezi West): Mr Speaker, I want to find out from His Honour the Vice- President …

Mr L. J. Ngoma: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr L. J. Ngoma: Mr Speaker, I apologise to the hon. Member of Parliament for Solwezi West for interrupting his debate.  

Sir, when you directed His Honour the Vice-President, Dr Guy Scott, to answer the question which relates to the benefits which the PF is deriving from the withdrawal and cancellation of the former President’s passport, he indicated that he answered that question sometime last week. I am wondering whether he is in order to refer us to a time that we do not know and cannot trace. 

Is that chap in order, Sir?

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: I really cannot follow your point of order.

Mr L. J. Ngoma: Sir, is Hon. Dr Guy Scott in order not to answer the question, as directed by you, and put forward to him by me? Was he in order to refer to a position which all of us here are not aware of? The question was very specific.

Mr Mwale: Is he in order to gloss over the issue?

Mr Speaker: As the session continues, I will request His Honour the Vice-President to revert to that issue to the extent that he talks about benefits derived if any.

The hon. Member for Solwezi West may continue.

Mr Mwanza: Mr Speaker, the House is rising next week and, as we know, the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) is a very thorny matter. When is this …

Mr Kampyongo: On appoint of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, this is an honourable House. You made a ruling, not too long ago, with particular reference to the term ‘chap’. In as much as it was qualified by making reference to the dictionary, you made a ruling that it is unparliamentary. Is the hon. Member for Sinda in order to challenge your ruling and arrogantly use the same term on His Honour the Vice-President of this country? 

I need your serious ruling, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: I, certainly, made it absolutely clear …

Mr Mwale: What about RB?

Mr Speaker: Order!

That is the problem with you. I made a ruling that it is unparliamentary. I hope that you understand what unparliamentary means. It means that you cannot use it in the context of our proceedings. You can use it elsewhere, but not here. If you are using it here, you are violating my ruling. In fact, you are inviting disciplinary sanctions to apply. That is what you are doing. I hope you will desist from using the term. I do not accept the use of that term here in Parliament.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: You are at liberty to use it elsewhere, but not on the Floor of the House.

Mr Mwanza: Mr Speaker, I wanted to find out from His Honour the Vice-President what the PF Government’s plans are with regard to this year’s K1.3 billion CDF? Should we expect it soon or, as usual, in October when it is very wet?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, it is continuously being released. I do not believe that there is any discrimination being practised. If there is a specific question, I would welcome it as an emergency question next week.

 I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mufalali (Senanga): Mr Speaker, may I find out why the Government always abandons infrastructure development plans after we appropriate funds? An example of this is in the Ministry of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education. Why do you abandon the infrastructure development plans after you have distributed them to the hon. Members of Parliament?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I am afraid, I do not understand that question. What infrastructure plan and what is being abandoned? Some warning would enable me to make an intelligent response. At the moment, I am blindsided.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Kalila (Lukulu East): Mr Speaker, since feasibility studies are going on for the Watopa/Katunda Road, what is the estimated cost and when is work expected to commence?

Interruptions

Dr Kalila: I circulated a note to His Honour the Vice-President in relation to this, Sir.

The Vice-President: The study is underway at the moment. The works that have been done on that road have been temporary works which have included grading and so on and so forth. Again, I answered a question in relation to this last week that one of the things that have somewhat held up the works on that road is the fact that the Mongu/Kalabo Road is receiving priority. 

I thank you, Sir.

Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha (Keembe): Mr Speaker, my time is over now.

Laughter

Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha: However, the question at hand is that the Government has stopped the payment of fees …

The Vice-President’s Question Time elapsed.

Mr Speaker: Order!

You rightly suspected so.

Laughter

__________

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

CHALIMBANA UNIVERSITY

704.  Mr Chungu (Luanshya) asked the Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education:

(a)    how the Chalimbana University managed to raise funds for the construction of thirteen staff houses; and

(b)    what the cost of construction, on average, of each house was.

The Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education (Dr Phiri): Mr Speaker, Chalimbana University is yet to be established. The hon. Member of Parliament is referring to the Chalimbana College of Education. The Chalimbana College of Education managed to raise funds internally for the construction of thirteen staff houses through distance education fees and they were used to construct eight houses. The other five houses were constructed using funds made available from the National Implementation Framework by the Government.

Mr Speaker, on average, each house cost K150,000. Let me pay tribute to the Chalimbana College of Education for showing us that it is possible to use internally-generated funds to help the Government build staff houses, and this is a model that the other colleges must try to emulate.

I thank you, Sir.

CONSTRUCTION OF ARMY BARRACKS IN KAPUTA DISTRICT

705. Mr Bwalya (Lupososhi) asked the Minister of Defence:

(a)    whether the Government had any plans to construct army barracks in Kaputa District; and 

(b)    if so, when the plans would be implemented.

The Deputy Minister of Defence (Mr Mwila): Mr Speaker, there is no plan to construct barracks in Kaputa. However, there are plans to construct barracks in Choma and Kawambwa districts.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Bwalya: Mr Speaker, considering that there are no plans for Kaputa, is the Government considering increasing the number of personnel, especially from the Zambia National Service (ZNS), given the porosity of the border in relation to the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC)?

Mr Mwila: Mr Speaker, as at now, the number of ZNS personnel that we have in Kaputa is enough to man the border.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lufuma (Kabompo West): Mr Speaker, I am seriously wondering about the rationale behind plans to build barracks in the middle of the country in Choma instead of building barracks to protect Zambians in Kaputa which is near the DRC border. What is the rationale behind the planned construction of barracks in Choma?

Mr Mwila: Mr Speaker, as Ministry of Defence, we have plans to construct barracks in all the provincial centres. However, at the moment, we have six of what we call operation camps in the country. In the North-Western Province, we have three camps and two camps in the Western Province. In Luapula, we have one camp which is in Chienge and, in the Northern Province, we have one in Kaputa which is manned by the ZNS. This is a process. We are going to construct barracks in Kawambwa, and then we will go to Choma. We have to build barracks all the provinces.

I thank you, Sir.

ST PAUL’S SCHOOL OF NURSING AND MIDWIFERY IN NCHELENGE

706. Mr Mpundu (Nchelenge) asked the Minister of Health when the Government would:

(a)    expedite the construction of student accommodation and school kitchen at St Paul’s School of Nursing and Midwifery in Nchelenge which were destroyed by fire;

(b)address the poor electricity supply;

(c)procure a school bus, particularly for the transportation of students for practical lessons.

(d)provide adequate monthly grants; and 

(e)provide more teaching and other staff who, as of December, 2012, were only at 45 per cent of the establishment.

The Deputy Minister of Health (Dr Chikusu): Mr Speaker, the Government, through the Ministry of Health, has already provided funds for the construction of student accommodation and kitchen at St Paul’s School of Nursing and Midwifery that were gutted by fire. The tendering process for the construction works will commence after the bill of quantities estimation has been done.

Mr Speaker, the Ministry of Health will engage the Zambia Electricity Supply Corporation (ZESCO) to ensure that the electricity supply to the health facility is worked on.

Mr Speaker, the House may wish to note that there has been an improvement in the funding for district hospitals because the Government has increased the budget allocation to the health sector. It is expected that with increased funding to the health sector, the monthly grants will also increase based on the resource allocation formula.

Mr Speaker, the Government has embarked on a process to assess all public health facilities with a view to coming up with a resource allocation formula that will be responsive to the type of health care services that each health facility is providing.

Mr Speaker, the Government will recruit more teaching and other staff during the recruitment exercise for 2013, and St Paul’s School of Nursing and Midwifery in Nchelenge District is one of the institutions which will benefit from this recruitment. The update is that the recruitment and interviews will take place in September, this year.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mpundu: Mr Speaker, I did not get the answer to part (c) of the question in relation to the procurement of a mini bus for the school.

Dr Chikusu: Mr Speaker, the procurement of transport such as mini buses is part of the procurement process which the ministry is currently undertaking. A bus will be delivered to the institution by October, this year.

I thank you, Sir.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

The next question is from the hon. Member for Kabompo West.

Mr Lufuma: Mr Chairman, thank you very much …

Laughter

Mr Lufuma: Mr Speaker, …

Mr Speaker: Order!

That is also unparliamentary.

Laughter{mospagebreak}

SCHOOLS IN KABOMPO WEST

707. Mr Lufuma asked the Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education when the Government would complete constructing classroom blocks at the following schools in Kabompo West Parliamentary Constituency:

(a)Salenda Basic;

(b)Mumbeji Basic;

(c)Nkulwashi Basic;

(d)Wazanga Basic; and

(e)Kayombo Secondary.

The Deputy Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education (Mr Mabumba): Mr Speaker, in 2008, Wazanga and Mumbeji primary schools were allocated K180 million each while Salenda and Nkulwashi were allocated K12 million each in 2009. However, these funds were not enough to complete the construction of the classroom blocks.

Sir, at the moment, the Government is sourcing more funds to complete the construction of the classroom blocks at the above-mentioned primary schools.

Mr Speaker, Kayombo Boarding Secondary is among the eighty-three secondary schools that the Ministry of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education is constructing. Phase I of the project is almost complete except for the fitting of cooking facilities in the kitchen. Phase II, which is the last part of the project, has already been awarded to the same contractor who was constructing Phase I. In Phase II, we expect the fencing and installation of water supply, sewerage facilities, drainage and power supply to be provided to the school.

Sir, this is the position on these schools. In short, we will be able to complete the construction of the schools that I have just mentioned when funds are made available.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lufuma: Mr Speaker, it is a pity that the construction of these schools has remained uncompleted since 2008. This means that they are not being utilised. The song of, “when funds are made available” is really wearing out. I would like to know whether the ministry is putting aside some money for this because it is just a little money needed to complete the construction works at Salenda, Nkulwashi, Mumbeji and Wazanga basic schools? 

Mr Mabumba: Mr Speaker, let me refer to the answer to another question which was asked in relation to our infrastructure plan. The Ministry of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education does not abandon the infrastructure plan at any particular stage. Funds are released depending on the availability of funds in that particular year. For example, for most of the projects which were planned, the money was released in 2012, and this money is with the districts. So, if there are any shortcomings, the hon. Members of Parliament should also do us a favour, as the Ministry of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education, of going to the respective District Education Board Secretary (DEBS) to find out why certain projects are not ongoing because the money was released.

Sir, with regard to the question from the hon. Member for Kabompo West, there are competing needs in the Ministry of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education. For example, at the moment, we have K1.72 billion for all the on-going projects in the Ministry of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education. However, we need K389 million for all the works against the K1.72 billion.

Mr Speaker, you can see that because of some of the over-procurement which we have inherited, sometimes, it is not easy for the ministry to complete some of the small projects that we have. However, that is not to say that the projects in Kabompo West are not going to be completed. With the Budget for 2014 permitting, we will see how we can meet the people of Kabompo West halfway.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mufalali (Senanga): Mr Speaker, why does the ministry start new projects when there are numerous pending projects in various parts of the country, including Kabompo? When we say that the ministry abandons its infrastructure plan we, we mean, for example, when twenty schools are planned in its infrastructure plan, only two are implemented. That is completely abandoning its infrastructure plan.

Dr Phiri: Mr Speaker, it is painful to us as it is to you, ‘hon. Ministers’ …

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Phiri: Hon. Members of Parliament, I beg your pardon.

Laughter

Dr Phiri: I am glad to hear that, “hear, hear!” It means that you are all yearning to be hon. Ministers.

Laughter 

Mr Muntanga interjected.

Mr Speaker: It was appreciated.

Mr Livune interjected.

Dr Phiri: However, there is a shortcut. Just defect, and you might be …

Hon. UPND Members: Question!

Laughter

Dr Phiri: On a serious note, I am saying that it is very painful for the construction of a classroom block to take five years to complete. In areas where the need is most obvious, particularly in rural areas, we, as a ministry, undertake to comb the whole scenery and ask the DEBS to pay particular attention to projects that have been ongoing for five or more years. However, we are reluctant to first finish off the projects that we have already started and then start new ones because the needs are increasing every day. Otherwise, areas such as Mitete, for example, will lag behind forever if we only complete projects where a little work has been done. Then, many areas will suffer irreparable damage in terms of education.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr L. J. Ngoma (Sinda): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has …

Mr Mutelo: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mutelo: Mr Speaker, I am sorry for disturbing the hon. Member, but I am glad to have been granted this chance to raise a point of order.

Sir, I have with me the Oxford Dictionary, and the word ‘chap’ means a man or a boy; a friendly form of address between men and boys. 

Mr Speaker, I accept your ruling that said that the word ‘chap’ was unparliamentary. However, I would like to know whether it is in order to refer to a former president, for example, President Kaunda, posthumously President Dr Chiluba and President Mwanawasa, and now President Rupiah Banda as chaps, even outside Parliament, bearing in mind that sooner or later, we shall also have many other former presidents. 

I seek your ruling, Sir.

Mr Speaker: My ruling is extremely short. My jurisdiction over these matters is limited to Parliament.

May the hon. Member for Sinda, please, continue.

Mr L. J. Ngoma: Mr Speaker, thank you for your wise guidance. I remain indebted forever.

Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has indicated that the ministry will endeavor to meet the people of Kabompo halfway. I wonder whether it is the policy of the PF Administration for the other half of the resources to come from other sources when the Government is supposed to provide 100 per cent of the resources.

Dr Phiri: Mr Speaker, the PF Government has an obligation to finish all the outstanding projects it inherited, and that is what we are going to do.

I thank you, Sir.

Interruptions

ZANIS OFFICE IN SESHEKE

708.Mr Sianga (Sesheke Central) asked the Minister of Information and Broadcasting when the Zambia News and Information Services (ZANIS) office in Sesheke District would be provided with the following:

(a)adequate equipment;

(b)a motor vehicle; and 

(c)additional staff.

The Deputy Minister of Information and Broadcasting (Mr Njeulu): Mr Speaker, the provision of equipment, motor vehicles and recruitment of staff in the ministry is done in phases because of budget constraints. The ministry has taken the following steps:

(a)equipment for the district has already been bought which consists of a public address system, computers, printers and fax machines, among others. This equipment has already been sent to the Western Province and is currently at the Mongu Office due to inadequate staff to utilise it in Sesheke;

(b)the ZANIS Office in Sesheke has a motor vehicle. However, it broke down and was taken to Mongu for repair. It will be sent back to Sesheke as soon as the repairs are done;

(c)the ministry is in the process of recruiting more officers in order to fill all the existing vacancies in ZANIS offices countywide. This recruitment exercise will also ensure that the newly-created districts are fully catered for. Additional staff will, therefore, be dispatched to Sesheke District on the completion of this exercise. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Sianga: Mr Speaker, for a long time, ZANIS in Sesheke has faced hardships with regard to transport. When will this vehicle be taken to Sesheke? It has been two or three years since it went for repair.

The Minister of Information and Broadcasting (Mr Sakeni): Mr Speaker, the vehicle will be taken back to Sesheke as soon as it has been repaired. What has caused the delay is that the cost of the repairs was high. However, funds have been mobilised to ensure that the vehicle is put back on the road.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1045 hours until 1100 hours.

[THE DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

Mr Hamusonde (Nangoma): Mr Speaker, if I heard the Deputy Minister correctly, he said that the equipment is meant for Sesheke, but it is kept in Mongu because there is not enough staff in Sesheke to utilise it. Why did the ministry get the equipment for Sesheke when it knew that there was not enough staff there to use it? 

Mr Sakeni: Mr Speaker, if I remember correctly, the answer was that the equipment was at the Mongu Office and will be taken to Sesheke when the staff can operate it.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwezi): Mr Speaker, I remember this very question was asked by the hon. Member for Sesheke sometime last year. The hon. Deputy Minister said that the vehicle was in the garage at the time. Today, we are being told that it is still in the garage. Is the vehicle reparable?

Mr Sakeni: Mr Speaker, the vehicle is reparable, but the cost of repair is slightly higher than we expected.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lufuma: Mr Speaker, how far has the planned recruitment process gone? At what stage is it? We are waiting for the staff.

Mr Sakeni: Mr Speaker, advertisements for the positions were made last year and, I think, Treasury authorisation has already been obtained and the staff at the Public Service Management Division (PMSD) are busy shortlisting the applicants. I think that sooner than later staff will be recruited. The process is almost ending.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Ndalamei (Sikongo): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister is saying that is costly to repair the old vehicle. Is he considering buying a new vehicle for Sesheke?

Mr Sakeni: Mr Speaker, a brand new land cruiser costs well over US$60,000, but the cost of repair of the vehicle is around K50,000. So, it is much cheaper to have the vehicle repaired than to buy a new car. The position is that our budgetary allocation is not adequate to maintain some of the vehicles in our stations.

I thank you, Sir.

Hamudulu (Siavonga): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister mentioned that the procurement of equipment and recruitment of staff will also affect the new districts. I know that most of the new districts do not even have office accommodation for the prospective officers to man them. May I know if it is not prudent to firstly find office accommodation in these districts before procuring the equipment which might just lie idle in some places like what is happening in Mongu.

Mr Sakeni: Mr Speaker, the question of office accommodation is being handled by the provincial administration. The Government has plans to put up offices for DCs where all Government departments will be housed. I believe once this is done, it will be easy to have office accommodation for our staff as well. Where we have office accommodation already, we will send staff immediately the recruitment process is over.

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Speaker, information is very important for the Government. I wonder whether the hon. Minister has any hope of correcting the situation in Sesheke where, for more than six months now, the ministry has been saying that it is advertising for positions and also having the vehicle repaired. Is there any hope that something will be done for Sesheke?

Mr Sakeni: Mr Speaker, we are going to make sure that the vehicle is repaired as soon as possible.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mufalali: Mr Speaker, may I know whether the hon. Minister is aware that Sesheke has a very small office which is like a cubicle. How is he intending to keep sensitive equipment such as printers and computers in such an environment where there is no proper office? 

Mr Sakeni: Mr Speaker, we have the office of the DC that normally handles matters pertaining to all Government departments in the district. I am sure this will be looked into locally in the meantime. 

I thank you, Sir.

___________

MOTION

REPORT OF THE PARLIAMENTARY REFORMS AND MODERNISATION COMMITTEE

Mr Mwanza (Solwezi West): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that this House do adopt the Report of the Parliamentary Reforms and Modernisation Committee for the Second Session of the Eleventh National Assembly laid on the Table of the House on 18th June, 2013.

The Deputy Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Mr Bwalya (Lupososhi): Mr Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

Mr Mwanza: Mr Speaker, under its terms of reference, your Committee is charged with the responsibility of examining and proposing reforms to the powers, procedures, practices, organisations and facilities of the National Assembly provided that in proposing such reforms, the Committee shall bear in mind the balance of powers between the respective constitutional responsibilities, roles of the National Assembly and the Government and the duties of other House-Keeping Committees. 

Mr Speaker, allow me to highlight some of the activities that your Committee undertook during the year.

Review of Parliamentary Reforms

Mr Speaker, the House is aware that the National Assembly of Zambia has been implementing Parliamentary Reforms since they were initiated in 1999. Since then, a lot has been achieved as reported by previous Committees over the years. With the conclusion of Phase III of the Parliamentary Reforms Programme (PRP III), it became necessary to take stock of the reforms that have been implemented to date and, subsequently, explore other areas that may need attention. In this regard, a consultant was engaged to provide your Committee with technical assistance in the evaluation of Parliamentary Reforms. As part of the assignment, the consultant has held brainstorming sessions with senior management of the National Assembly of Zambia. The consultant also brainstormed with the Committee during its retreat which was held from 27th to 29th May, 2013. The purpose of the retreat was to review the Parliamentary Reforms undertaken by the National Assembly of Zambia since 1999 so as to identify the gaps in the implementation of the reforms with a view to proposing further areas of reform.  The output of this consultant’s work will include the basis of broad recommendations in the future direction of Parliamentary Reforms in Zambia.

Construction of Constituency Offices

Mr Speaker, the House will recall that the National Assembly of Zambia embarked on a project to construct offices in all the constituencies in the country. Only nine constituency offices have been constructed so far. A further eleven offices have been earmarked for construction in 2013 in Mafinga, Lufwanyama, Zambezi West, Shiwang’andu, Chongwe, Sinda, …

Mr L. J. Ngoma: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza: … Nangoma, Dundumwezi, …

Mr Sing’ombe: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza: … Chifunabuli, Mulobezi and Lupososhi constituencies. The contractor has already moved to most of the sites and construction works have commenced. However, your Committee observes that the pace at which the offices are being constructed is very slow. Therefore, the Committee, once again, urges the Executive to increase the amount of resources for meaningful progress to be made in this project. 

Sir, as part of the efforts to secure alternative sources of funding to complement the Government, the National Assembly of Zambia has signed an agreement with Kreditanstalt für Wiederaufbau (KFW), a development agency of the Germany Government, for support towards construction of constituency offices. Details on how many offices will be constructed with this support are still being worked out. The House will be informed on the progress with regard to this support at an appropriate time.

Tours of the Committee

Mr Speaker, I wish to report that your Committee was privileged to undertake both local and foreign tours this year. 

Local Tour to the North-Western Province

Sir, the local tour was undertaken to assess the operations of the constituency offices in the North-Western Province. Your Committee also held public hearings in the constituencies in order to sensitise the public about the functions of the constituency office.

Mr Speaker, your Committee has observed that most people in the constituencies that were visited acknowledged knowing the existence of the constituency offices. However, they expressed ignorance about the reasons these offices were created. Most people perceive these offices as political and belonging to the political party that the hon. Member of Parliament is affiliated to. Further, people generally do not understand the roles of the constituency office and, worse still, the roles of the hon. Members of Parliament. Most constituents even regard hon. Members of Parliament as Automated Teller Machines (ATMs).

Laughter

Mr Mwanza: Mr Speaker, in view of the foregoing observations, your Committee recommends that concerted efforts be made to sensitise the public on the roles of the hon. Members of Parliament and the functions of the constituency office. Members of the public need to know that these offices are politically neutral and that they are accessible by anyone regardless of political affiliation.

Additionally, Sir, your Committee is making a fervent appeal to other Parliamentary Committees to sensitise the public on the work of Parliament, the roles of the hon. Members of Parliament and the functions of the constituency offices as they undertake their local tours countrywide. Further, the Executive also has a role to play in sensitising the public on these matters.

Mr Speaker, your Committee has observed, with concern, the poor state of furniture and equipment, including motorcycles in most constituency offices that we visited. This is mainly due to the inadequacy of operational funds available to constituency offices. Therefore, the Committee urges the Government to improve the budgetary support to the operations of the constituency offices which will enable the National Assembly to maintain furniture and equipment on a regular basis.

Foreign Tour to Parliament of Uganda

Sir, you will notice that I am wearing a necktie which was presented to the Zambian Parliament through the Chairperson of this august House. This is a symbol of unity in that Chamber. 

Mr Speaker, your Committee also visited the Parliament of Uganda. The purpose of this tour was to learn best practices in implementing reforms from our colleagues in Uganda. Numerous innovations have been introduced at the Parliament of Uganda. However, I will highlight only two major interventions, namely the Budget Office and the Parliamentary Service Commission.

Sir, your Committee observes that the Parliament of Uganda has a Budget Office which equips hon. Members of Parliament with expert knowledge on the National Budget. With assistance from this office, hon. Members of Parliament are actively involved in the formulation of the National Budget, its approval, monitoring and implementation. The House will recall that the Zambian Constitution was amended to provide for a Budget Office. However, the enactment of the Budget Act which will provide for, among other things, the establishment of a Budget Office is still outstanding. Therefore, your Committee strongly urges the Executive to expeditiously bring this piece of legislation to the House for enactment. This should be done before the end of 2014. There should be no summersaulting.

Mr Speaker, your Committee also notes, with admiration, the operations of the Parliamentary Commission of the Parliament of Uganda. The House will recall that the establishment of a Parliamentary Service Commission has been awaiting the enactment of a new Constitution which should provide for it. However, our view is that the wait has been too long. Further, since it is not in the control of the National Assembly, there is no guarantee that a new Constitution will be enacted soon. Therefore, your Committee strongly recommends that Parliament takes matters into its own hands by moving a Motion to amend the current Constitution to provide for the establishment of a Parliamentary Service Commission. In this way, the process can commence before the end of 2014.

Sir, in conclusion, your Committee extends its appreciation to you for the guidance rendered to it through its deliberations during Committee meetings and tours. Your Committee further expresses its gratitude to the Town Clerk, Council Secretaries, all the DCs and other Government officials who facilitated the tours of your Committee in the North-Western Province. Special tribute is extended to members of the public in the province for their contributions and attendance of the hearings in all the constituencies visited.

Mr Speaker, last but not the least, allow me to sincerely thank the Clerk of the National Assembly of Zambia and her staff for the services rendered to your Committee during its meetings and tours. 

I beg to move and thank you, Sir. 

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Deputy Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Mr Bwalya: Now, Mr Speaker.

 Mr Speaker, in seconding this Motion, I wish to thank the mover for the articulate manner in which he has moved it.

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

Mr Bwalya: Mr Speaker, this is the only report of the various Committees of the House which allows hon. Members to debate themselves.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bwalya: Sir, in addition, allow me to thank the Chairperson of your Committee for ably presiding over the deliberations of the often intricate and difficult issues considered by your Committee.

Mr Speaker, it is not my intention to repeat what the Chairperson of your Committee has already ably stated as he moved the Motion, neither is it my intention to reproduce your Committee’s report in my debate. However, allow me to underscore some of the salient points in the report.

Sir, as stated by the mover of the Motion, your Committee undertook a retreat to review parliamentary reforms. At this retreat, it reviewed the implementation of the seventy-three reform recommendations that were made by the Ad hoc Committee on Reforms and approved by the House in 2000. From its assessment, your Committee estimates a 69 per cent completion rate in the implementation of the recommendations.

Mr Speaker, one area where little progress has been made is the independence of the National Assembly. The constraint in this area arises from the fact that constitutional amendments have not been made to cement the autonomy of the National Assembly. One of the measures that can enhance the autonomy of the National Assembly is the establishment of the Parliamentary Service Commission. The decision to establish this commission, as earlier mentioned, was made way back in 2000 but, to date, this has not been done. This is because the process of enacting a new Constitution has been protracted and is inconclusive to date. Our view, as a Committee, is that this cannot wait any longer. 

In this regard, your Committee is of the view that the current Constitution be amended to provide for the establishment of the Parliamentary Service Commission. Your Committee expects the support of all hon. Members, as this body will significantly improve their ability to perform their important legislative, oversight and representative roles. 

 Sir, the need to have a Budget Act that strengthens Parliament’s role in the Budget process was also recognised long ago. The Budget Act will significantly assist the National Assembly to fully assert its constitutional roles in the budget making and approval processes. 

Mr Speaker, this House enacted an amendment to the Constitution in 2009 that provides for budget legislation. However, to date, the Executive has not brought this legislation to the House for enactment. Your Committee, therefore, wishes to urge the responsible ministry to expedite the process of presenting this legislation to the House.

Mr Speaker, the mover of the Motion has discussed, in detail, the construction of constituency offices countrywide. However, I am compelled to stress the need for speeding up the construction of constituency offices because they play a vital role in making the presence of the Members of Parliament visible in the constituencies. 

Mr Speaker, as you may be aware, Members of Parliament spend three quarters of their time attending to parliamentary business in Lusaka. Therefore, the constituency offices, in a very practical sense, fill the gap, as people can still forward their concerns to their area Member of Parliament through them. Having said that, I want to pay special tribute to the German Government for providing support towards the construction of constituency offices.

With these few remarks, Sir, I beg to second. 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to debate a Motion that, in my view, serves to improve not only the democracy that we have been fighting to improve for many years, but also give an insight into the functions of Members of Parliament. 

Mr Speaker, I want to thank the mover of the Motion, Hon. Mwanza and the hon. Member of Parliament for Lupososhi for ably moving and seconding this non-controversial Motion respectively. 

Sir, the capacity building component of the PRP Phase III, as contained in your report, indicates that this Parliament has continued to capacitate its staff to be more useful to Members in many ways and has embarked on a vicious training programme. 

Mr Speaker, the report also touches on the communication strategy that has been adopted by this Assembly. This strategy has reached its tentacles to sixteen community radio stations countrywide for the broadcast of live debates.  

Mr Speaker, at this juncture, I want to thank the UNDP for the support that it has been rendering the Reform Programme of this Parliament. I also want to thank your Committee for initiating the construction of eleven more constituency offices countrywide. It is gratifying to see that the selection of these constituency offices considered gender, political and provincial parity. This is what it should be. 

Mr Speaker, on page 7 of Part II of your Report, under what I will call the functions of the Legislature, your Committee recorded the following comments:
 
“After visiting three offices, it was observed that the electorate in general did not appear to understand the concept of Government and its three arms. Therefore, the Committee took time to explain the three arms of Government so as to make it clear to the electorate that once they elected a person to represent them in Parliament, he or she becomes part of Government. Therefore, despite their political affiliation, Members of Parliament were free to visit any Government department in order to monitor developmental projects and check on projects which the Executive arm of Government is implementing.”

Mr Speaker, this particular quote is at variance with what is obtaining on the ground. 

Sir, many a time, when hon. Members of Parliament like the hon. Member for Lubansenshi and many others are in the process of discharging their duties in their constituencies, they are met with a lot of interference from, for instance, the office of the DC, in conjunction with the police, under the guise of implementing the Public Order Act.  

Mr Speaker, on page 8 of your Report, your Committee was informed that the hon. Member of Parliament for Solwezi East was not available to attend to the developmental needs of the constituency. The mover of the Motion actually indicated how, sometimes, Members of Parliament are viewed wrongly as ATMs.

Sir, I would like to take a different dimension to this particular quote. Hon. Members of Parliament, especially those from the Opposition who cross the Floor to work with the Executive, do not go to their constituencies. 

Sir, the first quote emphasises the fact that when one is elected he/she is a Member of Government. Part of the reform and modernisation that we must embark on is to ensure that it dictates that when a Member crosses the Floor, he/ she must instantly lose his/her seat so that he/she can go and get a fresh mandate from the people whose interests and aspirations he/she represented. These are the people who gave him/her the mandate to come to this House. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, this is my feeling. 

I feel that immediately a Member crosses the Floor, he/she should cease to be an affiliate of the political party that brought him/her to this House. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: This is a question of morality, as quoted, in the first instance, that once one is elected to Parliament, he/she is part and parcel of Government and cannot be any better by simply crossing the Floor. That is actually a betrayal of the trust and confidence bestowed upon a Member by the people who elected him/her to Parliament by virtue of the vehicle that brings Members of Parliament here, and that is the party. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, this is a non-controversial Motion.

Mr Speaker, one of the issues that we need to look at here, which should change for us to have an effective Parliament, is to recognise, at all times, that there shall always be the Opposition.

Mr Muntanga: Yes!

Mr Nkombo: The threshold of having fifty-five Members to be recognised as an official opposition should be abolished forthwith so that those who are in the Opposition can choose a person who they think can be the leader of that particular grouping in order to engage effectively with the Executive.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Nkombo: Furthermore, Sir, if we take what we have borrowed from the Westminster style of governance where the process of providing oversight on the Executive works in the form of questions, we must not limit ourselves to only one question per member. If we are going to ask questions to the hon. Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communications or His Honour the Vice-President, we should be able to interrogate one another. The current system is inhibitive. For instance, once I ask a question and it is not fully answered, as you have seen – I do not mean in generally, but the mediocre way in which hon. Members of the Executive have been answering questions, …

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: … I need to ask follow-up questions where I feel dissatisfied.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Many a time, the Chair has told the Executive that they have not answered the question. That is your prerogative, Sir. However, if your prerogative is wrong because you are also human, …

Mr Muntanga: Yes!

Mr Nkombo: … you may let that particular issue go unattended to. This is why I am contending that hon. Members should be allowed to ask, at least, two follow-up questions in order to get satisfactory answers.

Mr Kalaba: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Livune: Question! Sit down!

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, we must also desist from allowing valueless points of order …

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Deputy Speaker: You are not obeying the rules of the game.

A point of order is raised.

Mr Kalaba: Mr Speaker, I am very grateful for granting me this chance to raise a point of order. 

Sir, Hon. Nkombo is debating well and his points are sinking in but, is he in order to continue demeaning hon. Members of the Executive by saying that the answers that are given are mediocre most of the times, and yet he continues to ask even when he feels that the answers are mediocre. Is he not falling in the line of mediocrity by debating in that manner? 

I need your guidance on this issue, Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: That is why I have repeatedly told you not use the Chair to argue your points out. There will come a time when the hon. Members of the Executive will answer and, at that point, they should be able also express their views. 

Please, do not draw the Chair into your arguments.

Can you continue, please.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, thank you very much for your wise ruling.

Sir, I have been a Member of this House for six-and-half years now and I have seen the amount of progress that we have made as a Parliament. We all belong to regional bodies. I was privileged to be nominated to represent this Parliament at the Southern African Development Community Parliamentary Forum (SADC-PF) at which we compare the efficacies of Member Parliaments through interaction. All I am saying is that in certain jurisdictions, when I feel that a question has not been ably dealt with, I am given an opportunity to ask further without abusing anybody.

Mr Speaker, let me go further, again, and say that reform is not a cliché, but a continuous process that we are going to continue to build on, our children will continue to build on and even our children’s children will continue to build on. All we are trying to do is enhance democracy because we chose to be democratic. This institution is instrumental in achieving that democracy. 

Sir, in governance, there is what we call autocracy and democracy. Autocracy comes with dictatorial tendencies. 

Mr Muntanga: Dictatorship!

Mr Nkombo: Dictatorship comes from the executive wing of government world over. That is where it resides. How does it happen? It happens by first weakening democratic institutions such as this particular one.

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Many times, parliaments have been dimmed rubber stamp parliaments. The word was coined as a result of the emergence of dictators. The spirit of the separation of powers has to be upheld at every given time so that a particular wing of government does not interfere with the executive wing of government and, in the same vein, the judicial wing of government and vice versa. In the reverse, the executive must know its boundaries. I put it to you Sir, that continuous luring of weak souls, that is Members of Parliament, to shift from one camp to the other, is one ingredient of diminishing democracy.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Mr Nkombo: It is one ingredient of making sure that democratic principles are tampered with.

Mr Mukata: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

A point of order is raised.

Let us avoid being controversial …

Mr Mukata: Mind your language!

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Deputy Minister, that is improper. You have to listen.

Mr Livune: Send him out!

The Deputy Speaker: No, I am not saying that he does not have a point. He wants to raise a point of order and I want to give him the chance to raise that point of order, but all I am saying is that, please, wait until you are given the Floor to raise a point of order.

Can you raise your point of order.

Mr Mukata: Mr Speaker, I rarely rise on points of orders, but is the hon. Member who was debating on the Floor in order to refer to other hon. Members as lesser mortals than himself by referring to them as weak souls? Is he in order to demean other human beings as being lower in the eyes of God than himself?

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Interruptions

Mr Deputy Speaker: That point of order only calls upon all of us to be civil in our debates.

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

Mr Deputy Speaker: The idea here is to convince each other so that we can reform. For instance, if there is anything that we reformed …

Interruptions

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

I am talking. It is not you on the Floor. If we have to make reforms and so on and so forth, the idea is that we should convince each other. However, we will not be able to convince each other if we become uncivil in our debates. So, let us tone down so that we convince each other.

Can you continue, please.

Mr Nkombo: Sir, when someone is enticed, …

Mr Muntanga: Yes, lured!

Mr Nkombo: … and I have not mentioned a single person’s name or when somebody has got a carrot dangled in front of his/her eyes and he/she succumbs, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: … my initial statement was that they should be dimmed as having crossed the Floor once they make a democratic decision to go on the other side, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: … thereby betraying the very confidence that those people out there who, like my colleague from Lukulu commonly refers to as the poor, wake up in the morning when it is voting day to go and cast a vote on a party and individual, that individual has parted company with his party. In Tonga, we say, kabaya amani amani, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: … meaning let them not go half way, but go all the way. That is part of the reform that I am talking about, Sir, without abusing anyone. I know that carrots are dangled and biscuits are shown; some of them with cream in the middle and others without. Anyaway, let me get to my point.

Mr Livune: Jiggies!

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: A very strong parliament that is going to stand as a pillar of democracy …

Mr Simuusa: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Muntanga: Yaba! Seriously, ba Minister banyamuka!

Laughter

Mr Simuusa: Mr Speaker, I would like to thank you for allowing me to raise this point of order, as I rarely rise on points of order.

Interruptions

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

Mr Simuusa: Sir, is Hon. Nkombo in order to suggest, against his own party’s position, which has declared that it is ready to work with the PF Government, that the progressive Members of the Zambian Parliament who are ready to work with the Government are not doing the correct thing and have been lured when they want to work with the Government of the day out of their own good principle? 

Is he in order to be so contradictory in his debate?

Mr Deputy Speaker: You see, let us not make the Motion controversial because the hon. Member who is debating said it is not controversial. I think that we are moving towards making it controversial. We are talking about how we can reform our system. At the moment, the law does not prohibit people from working with the Government. If the idea is that we should reform, let us say so without necessarily casting aspersions on those who have decided to work with the Government. That way, we will be putting across strong arguments. So, if we see the need to reform, let us do so. If we want to ensure that those who accept responsibilities in the Government which they are not a party to should be viewed as having crossed the Floor, let us say so by referring to the Constitution. At the moment, this is allowed. So, let us not cast aspersions on others.

Hon. Member for Mazabuka Central, you had the Floor.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, I thank you for the wisdom of your counsel. Reform always comes from a certain position. Currently, we have the Standing Orders, Members Handbook and the law that guide us on how to proceed. In building upon what we have, it is also important for us to respect that which we have for us to move ahead …

Ms Kalima: On a point of Order, Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Ms Kalima: Mr Speaker, I thank you for allowing me to raise this point of order. The dress code of this House is very clear. Is Hon. Mwaliteta in order to come to this House without wearing a necktie?

Mr Simfukwe: He is wearing a skipper.

Mr Mushanga: Teiwe wacimufwika!

Hon Mwaliteta showed his necktie.

Mr Deputy Speaker: He has a necktie on. 

You may continue.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, I was saying that as we carry on with the reforms, we have guiding principles that already exist …

Interruptions

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

Mr Nkombo: … and I was trying to emphasise the fact that the guiding principles that we have at this particular time must be respected for us to move forward. They must be respected to the letter. 

Sir, what I am trying to say is that both you and I have sworn to protect the Constitution of this land and so has every hon. Member of Parliament seated here. We all swore allegiance to the President as well as to uphold and defend the Constitution of this land.

Mr Speaker, Cap 12 of the Laws of Zambia, Powers and Privileges of the Assembly and its Officers says, in no uncertain terms, that any Member who shall give evidence in a Committee or, indeed, in the House, will have punitive measures taken against him/her if he/she decides to tell a lie or to be less truthful – let me withdraw the word ‘lie’, in order not to misguide the House.

Sir, as the case was this morning when His Honour the Vice-President, who I wish was here right now because he is a colleague of mine, decided to misguide this House, and yet, you and I, – and I am glad I can debate you ...

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

You are not supposed to debate the Chair.

Laughter

Mr Deputy Speaker: Continue with your debate, but do not debate the Chair.

Hon. UPND Members: Reforms!

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, I will restrain myself from debating Hon. Mkondo Danwood Lungu, but I want to discuss the presiding officers, as a way of reforming our Parliament to strengthen it as one of the pillars of democracy. There has to be, in no uncertain terms, fairness in rulings so much so that if I misguide the House, I shall be guilty of an offence. The Laws of Zambia say in Cap 12 at 16:

“Any person who before the Assembly or any authorised Committee intentionally gives a false answer to any question, material to the subject of inquiry, which may be put to him during the course of any examination, shall be guilty of an offence against Section 104 of the Penal Code.” 

Hon. UPND Member: Minister of Justice!

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, this is the law. How do we now reform ourselves if we do not want to respect this same law that currently governs us? I am not permitted to misguide the House from the legislative arm of the Government. Even Hon. Mukanga is not permitted to misguide this House. So, what is good for the gander is good for the goose.

Sir, to be told today, 12th July, 2013, that to bring a name of a constitutional office nominee is a matter of mere routine is ultra vires to this law that I just quoted. How do we then improve ourselves if we are going to continue wish-washing about serious matters of the Constitution? When you raise these issues, you are told to raise a question. Raise a question and ask what? That ratification is now abolished? Would that be the question I would be asking?

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order, order! 

You see, this is the problem sometimes we presiding officers face. Now you are referring to an issue that was debated earlier this afternoon and you expect me to allow that kind of debate to continue. As a person in the Chair, I can see where this debate is going and I have a responsibility to ensure that it does not go in the direction that you are taking. So, you have mandated me to either disagree or agree with you. I think that in all fairness, let us not go back to what was said earlier.

Mr Nkombo indicated assent.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Let us not go back to what was said earlier. Let us talk generally about the need to reform and how this can be done. We speak in generalities here. You can go for the details in the Committees. 

Please, continue.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, your guidance is much appreciated. It is reform we are speaking about. As I go towards the end of my discourse, I just have a few questions that must be interrogated as we go home and see whether this particular Parliament is actually reaching the Southern African Development Community (SADC) benchmark of self-assessment tool kits for us to be effective Members of Parliament.

Mr Muntanga: Very good.

Mr Nkombo: Sir, being an effective Member of Parliament does not simply mean heckling or interjecting when a colleague is making a point. I want to say that we need to know how independent this Parliament or Legislative Assembly is to the Executive. I have already made that point. I would also like to ask hon. Members to ask themselves how extensive and effective the powers of this Parliament are to initiate, scrutinise and amend legislation. Certain assemblies call themselves, but here we still wait for the President to call the Assembly. In certain jurisdictions, when hon. Members feel there is a pressing issue in the country such as the riots that are happening and the discontent in our country at the moment, hon. Members can call themselves to assemble and deal with those matters as long as they reach a certain threshold.

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, hon. Members do not have to wait for the President to call the Assembly. That is part of the reform that I am gunning for as I stand here. 

Sir, I also want us to interrogate ourselves and gauge how extensive and effective our powers in this Parliament are in overseeing the Executive and whether we make it accountable. This brings me to the issue of the 63 cents that was talked about yesterday.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: I shall not rest until someone in the Executive, those who are responsible for the procurement of oil, tells me where these 63 cents are going. That is part of the reform and efficiency of any parliament. In this particular case, the Presiding Officer must assist in the process to make sure that the Executive is accountable.

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes, that is right.

Mr Nkombo: Sir, when our colleagues across are accountable to me, they are also accountable to themselves and their children because sitting there is not going to be a situation in perpetuity. They will get off those benches one day.

Mr Muntanga: Soon.

Mr Nkombo: It may not be me to go there, but someone will definitely go and seat on that side. What we want to see in future is a better country.

Sir, I thank you for allowing me to debate.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Before the hon. Member for Keembe takes the Floor, I want to say that, please, let us debate the Motion. Let us not take advantage of the Motion and begin raising issues that should not be raised. By way of guidance, I want to make it clear that if the Presiding Officer makes a ruling with which you disagree or contend with, there are provisions in the Standing Orders for this. You cannot challenge me now, but you have other options according to our rules. You can follow these rules and say you disagreed with a certain ruling and so on and so forth and the matter will be looked at. Fortunately for us presiding officers, the rules say you should not argue with us when we are here. So, you can use that procedure.

Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha (Keembe): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me an opportunity to contribute to debate on this Motion on the Floor. Firstly, let me congratulate and commend the Chairperson of your Committee for moving this Motion in a wonderful way and also the seconder for his eloquence in dealing with the issues pertaining to this Motion.

Mr Speaker, I want to take Hon. Gary Nkombo’s debate as my own.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha: However, I want to go in another direction on the reforms that we are talking about here. It is, indeed, important for the Executive to answer questions factually and not politically. It will help us to reform ourselves and for the people out there to hear what they want to know about their country, not the politics that are going go on in the country. This is important because many questions and points of order have been raised and I, as an hon. Member of Parliament who has been here for ten years, have been left very disappointed with the answers that we receive.

Mr Speaker, further, we have Parliament Radio that reaches out as far as we have allowed it to. However, we would like it to reach every corner of the country for our people to hear what is going on. It is important for us to enable them to contribute to the debates that are going on in and outside the House. 

Mr Speaker, information and communication technology (ICT) is important in this august House. We are a House that is full of papers. All the time we have to move with large amounts of paper. It is necessary for us to reform towards becoming a paperless Parliament. This is important because when the public hears what is going on in Parliament, they would like to contribute to what their representatives are saying here.  Currently, they have no means of doing this. They just listen to the discussions, but have to wait for the hon. Member of Parliament to go back to Lupososhi or Luwingu for them to express their opinions on the discussions. Hon. Members of Parliament also have to wait until the next sitting of Parliament to make the views of their constituents known to the House.  

Therefore, it is important for us to look at things in a different way. How can an hon. Member of Parliament, representing people in Lupososhi and Keembe be able to hear from the electorate while talking on the Floor? It is through the modernisation of communication in this House by using laptops and iPads.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha: At the moment, we have to hide our iPads in here in order to communicate with somebody out there. There are many areas of communication that we need to improve on. Modernisation, therefore, is important not only for the staff, but also for hon. Members of Parliament.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha: There are many electronic aids that we need such as computers, laptops and iPads to modernise this House. Many parliaments are using these gadgets in order to communicate to the electorate and to easily access information that is necessary in parliamentary discussions.

Mr Sikazwe interjected.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

Why do you, hon. Deputy Ministers, like doing that. You are being irresponsible, I must admit.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Deputy Speaker: I think you have to lead by example. I am sorry to say that, but I think that is not good behaviour.

The hon. Member for Keembe may continue.

Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha: Mr Speaker, I thought I was not being controversial because this is an important issue for us to be able to access the electorate by using means that are allowed in Parliament to interrogate the facts on the ground and be able to bring them to this House. There are modern methods that have come through and we should not lag behind and continue working the way we used to work five or ten years ago. We must allow for the reforms and modernisation to come through.

Mr Speaker, according to your report, your Committee has done a good job by ensuring that many constituency offices are constructed, but this has been so slow that by the end of the current five-year term of Parliament, many of them will not be completed. An example is the office in my constituency in Keembe which is just nearby. We have not put up a good office there when it does not even take as long as it does to get to Chipata, Lupososhi or other far places. 

Mr Speaker, if we had a strategic plan and enough resources, we could easily finish these offices. These are very important matters. We should also be able to provide the offices with adequate transport from the National Assembly. The constituency offices have been given motorcycles, but they are not enough. My constituency stretches from the Zambia National Service (ZNS) camp as you go into Kabwe, all the way to the border close to Kasempa. Someone on a motorcycle needs two days to cross it. He/she needs to spend a night on the way and then continue with the journey the following day …

Interruptions

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order, on my left, please!

The hon. Member may continue

Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha: Thank you, Sir. 

So, modernisation must also include constituency offices and we should equip them with the necessary facilities. As I said earlier, hon. Members of Parliament need modern tools of communication for them to be able to debate effectively. Otherwise, the House is going to be left behind in terms of the ICT advances that the country is currently experiencing. This is important. We cannot continue to ban hon. Members from bringing computers and laptops into the House. Why should we continue hiding our laptops and telephones in this era? This must be reformed and we must allow for these issues to be dealt with.

Mr Speaker, we have visited a number of parliaments. I had the opportunity to go to Rwanda to look at a number of issues pertaining to my Committee on National Security and Foreign Affairs. One of the things we found in Rwanda is that the Parliament there is totally paperless. Even the Cabinet is paperless. They move their agenda so well on electronic devices and it has helped in conducting business easily. 

Mr Speaker, it is necessary to look at what other parliaments are doing for the reformation and modernisation of this Parliament. Whilst we are indebted to the British system, it is equally important to move away and capture good things that are done in other jurisdictions so that we are in a position to move forward. 

Mr Speaker, as regards our work here, we should not be arguing about what this or the other person says. Our work must be factual to a point where if an hon. Minister brings false information here, he/she must be carpeted under the law. We had a situation where a point of order was raised to the effect that nobody in the PF said that they were going to have a new Constitution in 90 days, and yet it was said by the President in this House. However, the hon. Minister of Justice said that no one in the PF said that. A point of order was raised that false information was given in this House and action should be taken for us to let the people know that this is a serious House.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Deputy Speaker: That is an example of what I meant. You see, …

Hon. Members remained standing to catch the Speaker’s attention.

Mr Deputy Speaker:  Hon. Members, sit down. I am still talking. 

The hon. Member for Keembe spoke very nicely except towards the end of his debate where he became controversial. He could have made his point without necessarily referring to the hon. Minister of Justice. He could have made his point by saying that when we are giving answers, we must be truthful without necessarily having to point at anybody because that brings in controversy. I think we should avoid that.

The hon. Member for Monze Central may take the Floor.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to debate the report of the Reforms and Modernisation Committee that has been ably moved by Hon. Mwanza and seconded by Hon. Bwalya.

Mr Mpundu: Ulandeko ifyalupiya, iwe!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, it is a result of the tragedy of the procedures of this House that, as hon. Members, we are now being forced to debate issues that we should have been discussing outside this House. I call it a tragedy that hon. Members of Parliament who are serving in this House have no opportunity to discuss issues that affect them apart from when a matter is tabled under Reforms and Modernisation. It is incumbent upon this House to create a forum where hon. Members of Parliament, once or twice every session, are in a position to meet with the presiding officers and discuss issues that affect them.

Mr Mabumba: That is correct, Jack!

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, let us not pretend that all is well. There is discontent amongst the hon. Members of Parliament.

Mr Muntanga: That is correct!

Hon. Members: Yes!

Mr Mwiimbu: They have no forum. We should create a forum where hon. Members can discuss issues amicably so that once the issues are resolved, we move forward without causing any acrimony. 

Mr Speaker, do you honestly believe it is right that all these hon. Members of Parliament who are here should not know their conditions of service? Is it correct that when an issue arises, these hon. Members of Parliament should always be asking what they are entitled to? It is not correct. We should be seen to be creating a forum where all these issues can be discussed in privacy. Now, we are addressing these issues to the nation because we have no forum and we have no choice, but to address them through this forum. This is not correct.

Mr Speaker, I have seen in the report where your Committee is talking about other jurisdictions where hon. Members of Parliament have offices. Unfortunately, we have no offices. The only room we have is a stinking one which is called a Members’ Room. It is in a very deplorable condition. The chairs are torn, it is smelly and the hon. Members do not even want to use it. Why should we be treated like that? We must be seen to be accommodated. Even if it is in one room, it must be a decent one. How can we be taking visitors to that so-called Members’ Room?

Mr Muntanga: They do not care.

Mr Mwiimbu: We must do something about this. 

Mr Speaker, in its proceedings, this House is guided by the Constitution, Cap 12 of the Laws of Zambia, Standing Orders, the precedents that are obtaining in the Commonwealth and those that are made by this House on several occasions. The issue at hand is that these precedents, that is the rules and procedures, must be predictable and be seen to be known by all hon. Members of the House. What has been happening is that, in most occasions, the rulings and pronouncements are contradictory ...

Hon. L. J. Ngoma: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: … and this has not augured well among hon. Members. 

Mr Speaker, hon. Members believe that some of the rulings are biased. They believe that there are two sets of hon. Members, that is, the privileged and those that are not privileged.

Mr Muntanga: The less privileged!

Mr Mwiimbu: We must be seen to be treated equally in this House. We are all hon. Members, enjoying the same privileges. We must be seen to uphold the sanctity of this House.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member! 

Mr Deputy Speaker stood up.

Mr Deputy Speaker: I just want to elucidate what I mean when I say that if you talk in general terms, I have no problem with that. Hon. Mwiimbu is saying that some hon. Members are complaining about some of the rulings and I am listening. However, if hon. Mwiimbu said “for example, the ruling you made yesterday … ”, then I will have a problem with that …

Laughter

Mr Deputy Speaker: …  and I will rule him out of order. 

Laughter

Mr Deputy Speaker: So, let us be careful how we debate these issues. I am sorry to interject, but we have to know this because the rules that we are following were not made by the presiding officers. These are the rules that you, people, made for all of us. For example, I want to read to you as regards the question of challenging the Chair. I just want all of you to know so that you are left in no doubt. Standing Order No. 61 provides that:

“(1)    Subject to standing order sixty-two, any member who wishes to challenge the decision of the Chair shall do so by moving a substantive motion.”

“(2)    The substantive Motion referred to in paragraph (1) may not be debated in the House unless the Committee on Privileges, Absences and Support Services has so resolved that it be tabled before the House.”

This is an example of what you have said. So, do not come to me and say “oh no, you are being unfair,” and so on and so forth. You have made the rules. If you want us to change them, then go to the Committee. You have to have them reformed. Do not bring things here that are not in our purview.

The hon. Member can continue.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, it is those particular rules which we should reform.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Moving a Motion of Censure on the Speaker is not right. We must create a platform where issues can be discussed amicably. There is no need to do that unless the situation is unobtainable.

Hon. Nkombo: Like now.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, it is not necessary. What we are saying is that we must create a platform where any hon. Member or a group of hon. Members who feel aggrieved can have an audience with you or any other Presiding Officer, discuss issues amicably and get them resolved. It should not always be about moving a Motion of Censure or Impeachment on the Speaker. That does not auger well. We should be seen to be working harmoniously. That is our plea. We are also appealing to you to have previous rulings circulated to hon. Members so that they are able to know what rulings pertaining to certain issues have been made in the past. Some of the issues are being raised out of ignorance on the part of hon. Members and you cannot blame them. We are appealing to you to create a forum for discussion.

Mr Speaker, the other issue I would like to raise is the weakness of the Committee system in this country. The Parliamentary Committees are very weak. They are almost of no value, as the situation obtains. Your Committees have no power to play the requisite oversight role on the part of the Executive. They do not have that. I will give an example of my Committee that deals with issues of gender and justice. What oversight role does it play over the Ministry of Justice? What oversight role does it play pertaining to the Ministry of Gender and Child Development, nothing? Every year, we decide to discuss a topic and, once that topic has been discussed and the matter has been tabled before this House, …

Hon. Opposition Members: That is the end.

Mr Mwiimbu: … that is the end. We do not even have the right to discuss the budget of the ministry which we are overseeing. In other jurisdictions, committees and ministries discuss the budget before it is presented to Parliament. They discuss the figures, agree and make amendments. When the matter is tabled before Parliament, there is no discussion because matters have been discussed and agreed on already. That is what we want to see happen in this Parliament so that every three months, the officers from a particular ministry can report back to the Parliamentary Committee on issues pertaining to the operations of that ministry. I am of the view that your Committee should have made a report on the findings in Uganda. That is the good practice that is obtaining in Uganda, and not what is obtaining here. As a result of the weakness of the Committee system in this country, Parliament is the weakest link in the governance system of this country.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Mwiimbu: All of us should be seen to be interested in the operations of the Committee system. One day, you may not be in the Executive, and you will want to represent the people of your constituency prudently and adequately. You can only do that if the Committee system works well. As the situation is at the moment, a private hon. Member of Parliament is stronger than a Committee. Even when you refer a Bill to a Committee, what power does it have? It just expresses an opinion and lamentations. We are not here to be wailing and lamenting over issues. In other jurisdictions, committees have the power to amend the Bills that are referred to them. We do not have that. Why should Bills be referred to your Committees? It is not necessary at the moment. It is the hon. Members of Parliament who have the power to amend laws, not your Committees. We are just wasting resources by referring Bills to your Committees because they are impotent. We must make the reforms.

Mr Speaker, I would like to raise the issue that has already been raised pertaining to the Budget Bill. The Parliament of Zambia initiated the original Budget Bill in 2000. To date, we have not enacted the Budget Bill. Our students, those who came to learn from us, that is Uganda and other countries, copied the idea of the Budget Bill from Zambia. They have enacted the Budget Bill, and we are now busy trekking to Uganda to learn from it, and yet it copied the concept from us. Does that really make sense? The Budget process in this country is flawed. The hon. Members of Parliament see the Budget when the Yellow Book is tabled here …

Hon. Opposition Member: With wrong figures.
 
Mr Mwiimbu: … with wrong figures in most instances. Why should we be seeing the Yellow Book here? If we reformed and had the Budget Act, we would be part and parcel of the process of coming up with the Budget. When the Budget comes to Parliament, within a week, the Budget would be adopted and passed. However, here, we take more than four months to debate the Budget. We are not part and parcel of the Budget process. Surely, is it in our interest to continue with the old routine that is not working and that is not helping us in any way? The answer is no. We must be seen to be reforming.

Mr Speaker, I know that there is another recommendation that has been made by your Committee pertaining to issues of vehicles. Why should I borrow money to buy a vehicle so that I can use that vehicle on behalf of the Government?

Hon. Opposition Members: Yah!

Hon. Opposition Member: To do Government work.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, why should I do that? After all, even when I use that vehicle on behalf of the Government, I have to pay insurance and maintain it. After that Parliament tells me, “even if you are insuring your vehicle, it is not yours.” Why should I be insuring a vehicle that is not mine? This is not right. That is why you find that some of the hon. Members of Parliament do not use their vehicles in their constituencies because they are difficult to maintain. Why do we not emulate other parliaments that give grants? Once a vehicle is bought using a grant, that vehicle can be used diligently in the constituency by the hon. Member on behalf of the people.

Hon. Hamududu: Like in Kenya.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, this is not only done in Kenya, but also in Uganda.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I know that when our colleagues on your right are given positions, they are accorded an opportunity to access mortgages. However, we also know of hon. Members of Parliament who, when they leave office, end up being destitute. Surely, are there no means of ensuring that these hon. Members of Parliament are also given the opportunity to access mortgages through an arrangement of Parliament? Even colleagues who were on the right, after leaving the office of Cabinet Minister, have been befallen by destitution.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kakoma: Lupando Mwape.

Mr Mwiimbu: Surely, what pride does it give us to see former leaders who have served this country diligently, being subjected to squalor?

Mr Nkombo: From honourable to vulnerable.

Mr Monde: On a point of order, Sir

Mr Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Monde: Mr Speaker, is Hon. Nkombo in order to point at Hon. Pande as though he is now vulnerable after being Minister?

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

I did not see Hon. Nkombo point at Hon. Pande.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Deputy Speaker: Please, continue.

I am following the flow of the debate, but the hon. Member on the Floor of the House is being disturbed.

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, …

Mr Nkombo: You have eaten a sumo biscuit!

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, my appeal to you is to have some of these issues addressed.

Interruptions

Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

I will now deny you the point of order.

Laughter

Mr Deputy Speaker: Please, continue.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, the other issue I would like to raise pertains to insurance …

Mr Nkombo: And sumo biscuits!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I have noted that in this country, when hon. Members of Parliament and the Executive travel outside the country, they are given a piece of paper called insurance. That insurance does not work outside Zambia because of the legislation which this House passed. I would like to repeat that this House passed an obnoxious piece of legislation which does not allow the insurance cover obtained from this country to work outside. 

Sir, even reputable insurance companies have been denied the right to insure Zambians in this country. There are reputable insurance companies that are able to cover people in this country to enable them access medical attention outside the country, but Zambians cannot access it because of the laws we have made. I recall that we lost one of our colleagues, the hon. Member for Milanzi, outside Zambia while on duty. He could not access medication because the insurance cover could not work.

Mr Speaker, I have noted that actually the hon. Minister of Finance is listening attentively. Let us amend that law so that we have insurance cover that works. A number of our people are spending huge sums of money seeking medication outside the country because they do not have insurance cover. If they had insurance cover, they would have been covered by the insurance they have. 

Sir, we need to attend to some of these matters. I know that they affect us, but they affect the people out there more. We need to do something about this.

Lastly, Mr Speaker, the perception that the Government relates to those in the Executive is wrong.

Hon. UPND Members: Yes!

Mr Mwiimbu: There are three arms of Government, that is, the Judiciary, Executive and Legislature. We are already in Government. There is no need to go to the other side.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Mr Speaker, I thank you very much for according me the opportunity to debate this very important report. I would like to commend the Chairperson of your Committee as well as the members for a clearly thought-out report that all of us, as hon. Members of the House, should follow closely and make every effort necessary to see that the reforms are undertaken as recommended.

Sir, it is common knowledge in the development process that development enhancement is a comparative process in the sense that we learn from other situations in order to improve our situation. It is for this reason that we are afforded opportunities to go to other countries to learn the way other parliaments operate. This is healthy, is important and should be encouraged.

Mr Speaker, it is for this reason that a number of parliaments come here to learn from what we are doing and they go back to implement what they have learnt in the way that we do things as the Zambian Parliament.

Sir, in this report, there are important comparative insights that our colleagues were able to gather when they went to Uganda. I would like to highlight these insights which I think are very important for us as we reform the way we do things as the Zambian Parliament.

Mr Speaker, on Page 21 of your report, your Committee makes reference to how the Ugandans have been able to create the positions of the Leader of the Opposition, Opposition Chief Whip, Party Whips as well as Government Chief Whip.

Sir, I think giving attention to such a dimension is extremely important for us so that we are able to efficiently and effectively manage our affairs in the House. I am sure we all know that it would be in the interest of our efficiency if such positions were created and attention given to how best such positions can be remunerated. This is so that those who are doing such kind of work are able to do so effectively and with all the commitment that is required. 

Mr Speaker, on Page 27 of your report, again, your Committee makes reference to two very important points which they learnt from the Ugandan Parliament. They learnt that previously, hon. Members of Parliament in Uganda used to get sitting allowances after every sitting. However, they now get a consolidated salary every month which incorporates sitting allowance. That could possibly be a subject for thought. Would this not be in the interest of enhancing the welfare of hon. Members of Parliament, here, to have a consolidated salary which takes into account the sitting allowances? I think that is something that should exercise our thinking as we reform. 

Further, your Committee goes on to say that hon. Members of Parliament in Uganda are given a grant to enable them buy vehicles of their choice at the beginning of each Parliament. This is a very important lesson from the Ugandan experience where hon. Members are not given loans, but grants because they are doing Government work. They go into the constituencies to do Government work. Therefore, it is seen as an important facilitation process for hon. Members of Parliament to be given grants instead of loans. This is a subject we can think through, as the Zambian Parliament, and see how best that can be addressed in our context.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, as a comparative insight, your Committee learnt that at the beginning of each Parliament in Uganda, Members of Parliament are facilitated with housing loans to build or buy a house. Despite this, hon. Members of Parliament are facilitated with a monthly housing allowance, as Parliament does not provide housing during the sitting of the House. There are a number of young parliamentarians who are coming to the House. The youth are now entering the House. 

Mr Sianga indicated ascent.

Professor Lungwangwa: As we reform, we must find a way of facilitating these young parliamentarians who are coming to the House to get housing …

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: … so that, at the end of five years, they have a house of their own. This is important and it is one way of looking after the welfare of parliamentarians …

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: Our colleagues are way ahead of us. Why is it that we cannot do this?

Mr Speaker, the report of your Committee states that each hon. Member of Parliament should be allocated an office to operate from within the Parliament grounds. The office should have the necessary office equipment, furniture and human resources.

Sir, Parliament has a lot of land, both here and at the Parliament Motel. Why can we not think along these lines? There are about 150 Members of Parliament only and each Member of Parliament can have an office where he/she can work from, like it is done in Uganda and other parliaments. 

Sir, we, as parliamentarians, have a lot of reading to do. We have reports from parastatal bodies, the Government and many other organisations. So, we need space where we can sit, read, digest and critic the various documents that come before us. Further, we also need assistants, like we have in our various constituency offices, who can conduct research not only in the constituency, but also in various other organisations while we are here so that we debate from a critically-informed position and be factual like hon. Shikapwasha stated. This is important. It happens in other parliaments and we should also think along the same lines so that we, as hon. Members of Parliament, can be as effective as we possibly can.

Mr Speaker, again, your report, goes further to state that in Uganda, each hon. Member of Parliament is given adequate funds by Parliament to visit his/her constituency four times in a month. While in the constituency, Parliament provides each member with extra mileage allowance to enable them carry out their parliamentary functions. We should also explore ways in which parliamentarians can go to their constituencies as many times as possible at the expense of Parliament. That is why this report is very important because it has brought out comparative insights which we, as the Zambian Parliament, should pay serious attention to and adopt some of the recommendations and insights from other sister parliaments so that we are able to serve our people and our country as effectively as possible. 

With these few comments, I thank you, Sir.

The Minister of Finance (Mr Chikwanda): Mr Speaker, this is a fairly straight forward Motion. We all accept the inevitability of reforms. We have to reform, as a country, if we are to go forward unless we want to remain in the Stone Age. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chikwanda: Sir, reform is something we should not resist. It is a good thing to have a perfect idea, but it is also another thing how you put that idea into effect. A lot of views expressed by hon. Members are very good ,but some hon. Members have a very strange way of presenting issues.

Laughter

Mr Chikwanda: Sir, the people who are delaying reforms are those who always have a permanent axe to grind. These are people who want to be confrontational and do not embrace the idea of inclusiveness and togetherness. Whether we are Patriotic Front (PF), Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) or United Party for National Development (UPND), there is a point at which we are all Zambians. You should forget about our religious, cultural and language differences. We should logically have one agenda to move Zambia forward so that there can be no resistance. 

Talking about the plight of hon. Members of Parliament, the hon. Member of Solwezi Central, during one of the debates, painted glamorous situations of hon. Members of Parliament or Ministers and I had to stand up and say that the plight of the hon. Members of Parliament in this country leaves much to be desired. In some of the Government institutions, office orderlies are paid far more than the hon. Members of Parliament. 

Interruptions

Mr Chikwanda: Therefore, let us harmonise things. Let us work together and proceed with the reforms. The reforms, as proposed by Hon. Lt-Gen. Shikwapwasha, are a very sensible matter. Maybe, this is why he is a Lieutenant-General. 

Laughter

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Speaker, we would have difficulties embracing what the hon. Member for Keembe said, but let us do it sensibly because we belong to one family. We should also rollback the levels of confrontations. This is an occasion where some people come here to debate and display their exaggerated egos. They want to use the occasion to indulge in some megalomaniac fantasies and things like that.

Laughter

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Speaker, it is either we reform or we perish. I also wish to tell the people on the other side of the House that standing up and reminding us that one day we will not be here is not an issue. It is just a matter of common sense. In a multi-party dispensation, there will be frequent change of Government and we must accept that. 

Sir, no one here is immortal and, in fact, we do not even know how long we shall live. We may not even be here next week. The one who has the prerogative of recall is the Lord. So, as human beings, we cannot immortalise ourselves because we are mortal. We are also fallible. Nobody is insulated against erring. We have not said we are infallible because even the person who is said to be infallible like the Pope, his infallibility is only limited to matters ex-cathedra.
 
Laughter

Mr Chikwanda: He cannot speak on matters of science or other things or else his infallibility is questionable. So, let us just work together. There is no need for us to always be at war with each other. We are members of one family. We may have different views on issues and approaches but, please, let us take away the confrontation, bitterness and …

Hon. Government Members: Yes.

Mr Chikwanda: … hatred and not be apostles of hate. Do not be sectarian. Let us work together, as Parliament, to initiate reforms. 

Sir, reference was made to the Planning and Budgeting Bill. This is already in process. We issued a public statement for comments and we are waiting for those comments. One hon. Member of Parliament wrote me a note yesterday and I wrote back, saying, “it is not our credit, the credit belongs to you.” At the behest of hon. Members of Parliament, as Ministry of Finance, we have embraced their initiative shall hurry to bring this Bill to Parliament so that we have a more acceptable budgetary process. In this day and age, we cannot have exaggerated secrecy. The world is developing a process such that there is no room for hiding. The world’s information process is very advanced. For us individuals, the only way you can protect yourself is by doing the right thing.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chikwanda: You cannot do wrong things and think you are going to hide or mislead people into not seeing.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Speaker, on this side of the House, we view the reforms as a necessity and we are committed to them. So, I only appeal to hon. Members of Parliament to change the way we approach things and remove …

Mr Deputy Speaker: I know, hon. Minister, you are passionate and are emphasising the point but, I think, you have made your point.

Mr Chikwanda: Yes, Sir, I have made my point.

Mr Speaker, we rarely get an opportunity to also give our views.

Laughter

Mr Chikwanda: Let us respect each other and stop crucifying each other. I thank the hon. Members who have spoken in support of the reforms. On this side of the House, we accept the need for reform entirely.

I thank you, Speaker.

Mr Mwanza: Mr Speaker, I wish to thank the contributors to the Motion on the Floor. Our experience in Uganda was very useful. I hope that, as a Parliament, we shall be able to reform.
 
In fact, in Uganda, we were told that if, as hon. Members of Parliament, we cannot talk about ourselves, then what role are we playing? When are we supposed to talk? So, I am very happy to hear my colleagues talk about that. 

With these few remarks, I want to thank Hon. Shikapwasha, Hon. Nkombo, Hon. Mwiimbu, Hon. Lungwangwa for the passionate appeal and, finally, Hon. Chikwanda, from the Government side, for the insight and passion for reform.

With these remarks, I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order, order!

Question put and agreed to.

____________

BILLS

SECOND READING

THE EXCESS EXPENDITURE APPROPRIATION (2010) BILL, 2013

The Minister of Finance (Mr Chikwanda): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

Mr Speaker, in accordance with Article 117 (5) of the Constitution which states: 

“Where in any financial year, expenditure has been incurred without the authorisation of Parliament, the Minister responsible for finance shall, on approval of such expenditure, by the appropriate committee of the National Assembly, introduce in the National Assembly, not later than thirty months after the end of the financial year or, if the National Assembly is not sitting, at the expiration of that period, within one month of the first sitting of the National Assembly thereafter, a Bill to be known as the Excess Expenditure Appropriation Bill, for the approval by Parliament of such expenditure.” 

Mr Speaker, it is in this regard that I present the Bill to approve the excess expenditure of monies aggregating K814,219,095 required for the services in the Republic during the financial year ended 31st December, 2010.

Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Members for unanimously supporting the Bill. 

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter 

Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time. 

Committed to a committee of the Whole House.

Committee on Tuesday, 16th July, 2013. 

THE SUPPLEMENTARY APPROPRIATION (2011) BILL, 2013

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

Sir, in accordance with Article 117 (4) (b) of the Constitution which states:

“ … the Minister responsible for finance shall introduce in the National Assembly not later than fifteen months after the end of the financial year or, if the National Assembly is not sitting at the expiration of that period within one month of the first sitting of the National Assembly thereafter, a Bill to be known as Supplementary Appropriation Bill, …” 

It is in this regard that I present the Bill to confirm the Supplementary Expenditure of monies aggregating K4,467,500,504, required for the services of the Republic during the financial year ended 31st December, 2011.

Sir, as hon. Members are aware, the Supplementary Estimates No. 1 of 2011 were thoroughly debated and the Bill is just meant to regularise the approval already given by this House.

Mr Speaker, again, I thank the hon. Members for the support. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

_______

The House adjourned at 1255 hours until 1430 hours on Tuesday, 16th July, 2013.