Debates - Friday, 27th September 2013

Printer Friendly and PDF


Friday 27th September, 2013

The House met at 0900 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]





The Vice-President (Dr Scott): Mr Speaker, I rise to give the House an idea of the business it will consider next week. On Tuesday, 1st October, 2013, the Business of the House will commence with Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. The House will then resume debate on the Motion of Thanks to His Excellency the President’s Address.

On Wednesday 2nd October, 2013, the Business of the House will begin with Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if they will be any. Thereafter, the House will consider Private Members’ Motions, if there will be any. The House will then continue with the debate on the Motion of Thanks to his Excellency the President’s Address.

On Thursday 3rd October, 2013, the Business of the House will commence with Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by the presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. The House will then continue with the debate on the Motion of Thanks to His Excellency the President’s Address.

On Friday 4th October, 2013, the Business of the House will begin with the Vice-President’s Question Time. This will be followed by Questions to hon. Ministers, if there will be any. After that, the House will deal with Presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Then, the House will continue with the debate on the Motion of Thanks of Thanks to His Excellency the President’s Address.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.




The Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Lungu): Mr Speaker, issues surrounding the Public Order Act arose from the point of order which was raised by Hon. Cornelius Mweetwa on Tuesday 24th September, 2013, in which he alleged that some Patriotic Front (PF) cadres led by Lusaka District Chairperson, Mr Robert Chikwelete, took over the Central Business District of Lusaka to demonstrate against the Secretary-General of the party, Hon. Wynter Kabimba, SC. who is also the Minister of Justice. The hon. Member also alleged that some political parties in the past particularly, his own party, the United Party for National Development (UPND), have not been afforded similar opportunities by the police to hold public rallies or processions.

Sir, I would like to start by stating that, the Zambia Police Force is mandated by law to administer public order throughout the country through the Public Order Act. The police have the duty to assess the purpose of the public gathering or procession which is to be held. Furthermore, the notice to hold a public rally or a march has to be lodged with the Zambia Police Force in writing at least seven days before the actual date. The notification letter ought to give a number of details to the police such as the number of people who will be involved in the procession, date, time, venue, route and objectives. I think these issues were raised in a ministerial statement I issued on an earlier date.

Mr Speaker, you may wish to know that, the Zambia Police Force was notified that the PF members were to hold a peaceful procession on 24th September, 2013.

Hon. Oppostion Members:  No!

Mr Lungu: The PF members intended to march to the Ministry of Justice. This request was denied by the Zambia Police Force as it was believed that it could lead to the disruption of Government functions. The police advised the party members to march from their party headquarters to the Kabwe Roundabout up to Ben Bella Road and then back to their district headquarters.

Sir, the procession of Tuesday, 24th September, 2013, went well. There were no reports of damage to property nor was there any injury to any person.

Mr Speaker, you may wish to know, as a matter of fact, that the Zambia Police Force restrained the PF from holding another procession on 25th September, 2013. It must be noted, Sir, that this was not the first time that the police was acting against the PF. The hon. Minister of Home Affairs does not practice a selective application of the Public Order Act whenever it comes to the issuance of permits, through the police, for the holding public rallies or protests.

Sir, the police have absolute discretion in this matter. The ministry only comes in whenever some people are dissatisfied with how the police enforce the Act. You may recall that your own hon. Members of Parliament from that side were blocked from marching to State House without police notification. In that instance, no hon. Member was apprehended. They were all simply advised to go back to their homes.

On the other hand, last week, the UPND went ahead and held a public meeting in the North-Western Province and Ndola on the Copperbelt with the Zambia Police Force in attendance. In the recent past, notifications have been received from the UPND to conduct public meetings in Kabwata, Mtendere and Matero, which are all densely populated areas. The police gave the UPND a go-ahead in those instances.

Hon Livune:  Question!

Mr Lungu: Furthermore, the UPND was permitted to convene public meetings during all the parliamentary by-elections which were recently held.

Hon. Opposition Members:Aah!

Mr Lungu: The same goes for other opposition parties. The National Restoration Party (NAREP) was last week allowed to conduct a party mobilisation exercise without any disruption of law and order. During the same period, the Forum for Democracy and Development (FDD) was allowed to conduct public meetings in the Western Province. During the parliamentary by-election in Mkaika Constituency, the former Ruling Party, the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD), was allowed to go ahead with all of its meetings.


Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, I can confidently state that there is no selective application of the law when it comes to the holding of public meetings or processions under the Public Order Act. However, I must hasten to state that, when misunderstandings do arise between the conveners of these meetings and the police, it is incumbent upon us, as responsible leaders of the various parties, to dialogue with the police and find a common ground. All the people in this country have the right to assemble, associate, hold an opinion and to campaign for their own political party or their own cause.

For the sake of providing further clarity on this matter, I wish to inform this august House that during the reported fracas at Northmead Secondary School in Lusaka in which some PF cadres were involved, a number of them were arrested and appeared before the courts of law. I do not know at what which point the matter has reached.

Mr Speaker, there are various instances when notifications from both the ruling and opposition parties have failed to meet the conditions as provided for in the Public Order Act. The police are understaffed, ill-equipped and cannot do much without our support. Thus, in the interest of public safety and security, the applicants have been advised not to go ahead with certain processions.

Sir, we all have a shared responsibility in resolving issues to do with the enforcement of the Public Order Act. In fact, there is a matter to do with the Public Order Act which is in court. I would like to believe that the people who took the matter to court did their homework and submitted what they thought were areas of concern regarding that law. Given the prevailing circumstances in the country, the Zambia Police Force has tried its best to administer the Public Order Act fairly and firmly despite its low staffing levels and poor equipment.

Mr Speaker, Zambia is a country governed by the rule of law.

Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Lungu:  This does not mean that, if the people charged with the responsibility of maintaining law and order are found wanting, we cannot complain or compliment them. We are free to do so. That is the spirit with which we are debating this matter. The Zambia Police Force has a noble task of seeing to it that the peace and tranquility enjoyed since Independence, in October, 1964, is safeguarded and maintained. It is, therefore, important that each one of us, including my colleagues on your left, observe the provisions of the Public Order Act. If there is room, lets us negotiate within the law.

The Government is determined to regulate the peace and order in the country. Therefore, the Zambia Police Force will continue to enforce the current law as enshrined in the Constitution and subordinate legislation. Once the law is changed, we will abide by the changes.

Mr Speaker, let me now move on to the issue of the illegal allocation of plots in Lusaka West.

Sir, this matter arose from a point of order raised by Hon. Gary G. Nkombo, Member of Parliament for Mazabuka Central, on Thursday 26th September, 2013, in which he alleged that there was the illegal demarcation and selling of land in Lusaka West and that, therefore, a complete breakdown of law and order had arisen which the hon. Minister of Home Affairs needed to address. He further, alleged that during the same incident, property was damaged in running battles between some alleged PF cadres and the Zambia Police Force.

Mr Speaker, in an effort to verify whether there was truth in what the hon. Member had said, last night, I sat with the police and received a comprehensive report on the matter. Land encroachment is a criminal practice that has, in the recent past, reached alarming levels more especially in Lusaka Province. It is against this background that the Zambia Police Force has strategically formulated an operation to stump out this illegality not only in Lusaka, but also other parts of the country so as to stamp out this scourge once and for all.

On Thursday 26th September, 2013, the first operation was carried out in which a number of arrests were effected. Close to 600 people were arrested. Dockets have been opened and these people, as I speak, are likely to be appearing in court. However, I am happy to report to you that no injuries were reported in yesterday’s incident, but property belonging to Trishul Supermarket and Investrust Bank was damaged.

Mr Speaker, the Government regrets the consequences which may arise in the course of enforcing the law such as the damage to private property and, indeed, in some unfortunate situations, injuries to innocent people. Without law and order, all our aspirations would go up in flames. It is the Government’s duty to ensure that there is social order. We will ensure that thorough investigations are carried out and culprits are brought to book.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members are now free to asks questions on points of clarification on the ministerial statement issued by the hon. Minister of Home Affairs. 

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo (Mumbwa): The hon. Minister Home Affairs has stated that they are upholding the law regarding the Public Order Act. We have noticed a number of incidents which have shown that there is glaring discrimination in the way the law is administered.

Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister state that they are seeing issues from a different perspective from us. Is it not time that we comprehensively sat down and reviewed this issue?

Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, the legacy we inherited was one under which …

Hon. MMD Members: Aah!

Mr Lungu: … policemen felt intimidated when they saw a member of the Ruling Party doing wrong things. There is a culture that imisango yabachairman should be respected. This has been our culture since the days of United National Independence Party(UNIP). The culture that we and the MMD inherited, although they may want to distance themselves from it, is that the chairman apparently instilled fear in the police. The police try to hold themselves back unless it is absolutely clear to them that they can act. The police feel intimidated when the Ruling Party is involved in wrongdoing and that is what we are trying to fight.

Mr Speaker, I am ready to meet my Police Commanders to tell them that there is no need to fear alleged criminals who purport to belong to the Ruling Party. His Excellency the President has told me, the Minister of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection and the Minister of Local Government and Housing, that there is no one who is above the law. He has instructed us to deal with law breakers regardless of their political affiliation and that is what we are doing. However, since this issue has reached a viral stage, the same people who carried out these crimes in the MMD have infiltrated our ranks.

Hon. MMD Members: Aah!

Mr Lungu: We are fighting hard to show that we are different from the MMD. Since police officers are afraid to offend Ruling Party cadres during the course of their work, we have kept on urging them to carry out their duties without fear. Challenging as the case may be, we are not going to fail to apply the law fairly and squarely.

Mr Speaker, Hon. Dr Chituwo should be assured that the police, under the leadership of the PF, have been liberated from being intimidated by those in the Ruling Party.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Speaker, I thank you for asking the hon. Minister of Home Affairs to come to this House with a ministerial statement regarding the degeneration of peace, law and order in this country under the PF Government.

Mr Speaker, the Constitution gives every Zambian citizen inherent rights of freedom of association and movement which are superior to the Public Order Act. In his statement, the hon. Minister pleaded with us to find ways and means of negotiating with the powers that be in order for us to enjoy our inherent rights.

Sir, can he confirm to me that the act of a PF cadre, not those that they claim to have inherited from the MMD, of stripping naked and climbing on top a police vehicle …

Dr Scott interjected.

Mr Nkombo: Hon. Dr Scott, please, this is a serious matter.

Mr Speaker, we saw cadres at State House on top of police vehicles. Is this part of what should be referred to as negotiations? Should we negotiate by stripping naked and standing on top of police vehicles as well?

Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, I have already stated that we are exorcising the spirit of fear from our policemen when they are dealing with party officials and cadres because no one is above the law. The police are allowed to exercise their own discretion when applying the law. They sometimes warn you against being a public nuisance or put you in custody, then take you to the courts of law after charging you. We encourage our police officers to apply the laws against obscene behaviour whenever they are confronted by it. I have promised to try to liberate our police from the spirit of fear when they are dealing with party cadres from the Ruling Party.

Sir, stripping naked is not good moral conduct. If the law does not permit that and a person does it, then the police are supposed to arrest that individual. The person will be charged with conduct likely to cause the breach of peace. Misconduct in any form will not be tolerated by leaders of the Ruling Party.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mulusa (Solwezi Central): Mr Speaker, I thank you and the hon. Minister of Home Affairs, for having given us this opportunity to engage over this serious matter.

Mr Speaker, on 4thAugust, 2013, an MMD member by the name of Michael Phiri, was abducted in Mkaika and taken to his parents’ house. He was then assaulted and stabbed with a screw driver under the supervision of Mr David Phiri.

Hon. MMD Member: Aah!

Mr Mulusa: This matter was reported to the police the following morning. The following afternoon, Hon. Mushili Malama, Mr Andrew Banda, a cadre by the name of Mr Dexter Phiri and I were assaulted in Mkaika by the same group that had been reported to the police.

Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has told us that the law is applied firmly and fairly to everyone. When will the cadres responsible for this assault be arrested and why have they not yet been arrested?

Further, Mr Judge Ngoma was a beneficiary of the President’s parole, but has been brandishing guns in all the by-elections he has attended. Does this not amount to a breach of his parole conditions? When will he be taken back to prison?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member has asked two questions. I do not know whether I should answer both of them.

Hon. Opposition Members: Both.

Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, I should place a caveat as I answer this question because the hon. Member who is asking it is part of the police investigations in Mkaika where he is alleged to have smeared himself with tomato paste or ketchup, in American parlance, …


Mr Lungu: … so that he could look like he had been injured. The Mkaika matter is still being investigated by the police.


Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Lungu: In fact, a PF cadre who was injured during the same period by the same MMD officials is still in hospital. If the hon. Member is serious about this matter, then he ought to interrogate the police in Mkaika where the complaints were made. They will tell him how far they have gone with the matter.

Sir, I am not privy to the facts in the matter involving Mr Judge Ngoma. However, if he has breached his parole conditions, the hon. Member is at liberty to report him to the police.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members indicated.

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, take your seats. Let me guide you. There were two points of order raised which have very specific contexts. Now is time for points of clarification on the ministerial statement which has been issued by the hon. Minister. Hon. Members confine yourselves to the context. That is how we conduct our business.

Ms Namugala (Mafinga): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has admitted that the police are powerless when confronted by PF members. I witnessed this in Mafinga, during the recent ward by-election, whereby the Officer-in-Charge, who is supposed to enforce the law was trying to disperse an illegal meeting that was called by the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Livestock. The Officer-in-Charge was chased from the meeting by the District Commissioner (DC) from Shiwang’andu.

Mr Speaker, with that admission by the hon. Minister that the police are powerless, what is his advice to land owners whose land is being invaded by the PF cadres? Is he advising that they take the law in their own hands and deal with the situation as it arises?

Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, I have not at any time advocated for lawlessness. Even when people have been at the receiving end, I have urged them to seek the protection of the law. All I am saying is that we will endeavour to get our policemen in a position where they will not to be intimidated by the presence of an hon. Minister, a party official or a cadre. Matters such as the one which occurred in Mafinga Constituency, should be brought to my attention. The hon. Minister in question and I are your colleagues who can easily discuss such matters.  What I want to point out is that the police are struggling to come to terms with the reality that we will let them do their job without hindrance. It takes time for people to appreciate that we mean what we say.


Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, it is true that there are people who are joining us with the wrong belief that we will carry on with the iniquities of the MMD. These, we have to sort out and that is what we are doing.


Mr Speaker: Order! Continue, hon. Minister

Mr Lungu: Sir, we have shared our vision with other hon. Members so that they can help us implement it. If what the hon. Member for Mafinga has said is true, she should have approached the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Livestock and said, “Hon. Minister, are you not going against the proclaimed PF vision of allowing the police to do their job?” Then, we would have gotten somewhere. As it is, it is history and I do not know whether it happened for a fact. I must emphasise that we mean well in trying to allow the police to do their job. Unfortunately, we have remnants of the MMD who have joined us. Some of them joined us openly, but do not share our vision and culture. Those, we will sort out.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Imenda (Luena): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister stated that sometimes, the police do not allow certain gatherings to take place because they have insufficient police officers to go and monitor them. There was supposed to be a combined rally for the Opposition in Kanyama, which could not take place due to the shortage of police officers. On the day that the rally was supposed to take place, the place was cordoned off by a huge number of police officers. How can the hon. Minister explain such a contradiction?

Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, this question was brought to this House and I did answer it. I will repeat what I said that when the police are exercising their judgment in these matters, we are not there. If, for example, the parties choose to dare the police, the police, being human, may feel belittled sometimes, which is, of course, unfortunate. For me, such situations should not even arise because the political parties are supposed to engage the police. That is my appeal. There is no contradiction in what I am saying.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mbulakulima (Chembe): Mr Speaker, I find the hon. Minister’s propensity to defend the police very difficult to understand. Look at the reasons which make people demonstrate. There is need to critically analyse the reason the party cadres from the PF have been protesting. Is it justifiable for the PF cadres to obtain permission to demonstrate against an hon. Minister and walk in densely populated areas such as Cairo Road, naked and carrying a coffin? In your own view, as hon. Minister of Home Affairs, is such a demonstration justifiable?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, unfortunately, I get to know about these events after they have occurred. I am not there when these things happen, but I do get reports. If you are to ask for my judgment,…

Dr Kaingu interjected.

Mr Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Mwandi.

Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, I am not a policeman, but an hon. Minister of Home Affairs. As an hon. Minister, I just receive reports. I only get to know, for example, if there is a difference between the applicant and the police, and the applicant comes to my office to say that he or she has been denied an opportunity to demonstrate. Most of the time, I just get reports that there has been a demonstration or there will be a demonstration. I do not take part in the demonstrations.

Mr Speaker, I have already stated here that if, during a procession or public meeting, the police find that there is a breakdown of law and order, they have a duty to arrest those people. If carrying a coffin is an offence, obviously, the police should, using their discretion, arrest the people who are carrying it. The offences are already there in the Penal Code. How the law is applied is a prerogative of the police. If you ask for my opinion, it will not hold anything here. What I am saying is that the police have a duty to enforce the law even when they have allowed people to march. If those people break the law, they ought to be arrested. The law is there to guide whether stripping naked or remaining with an under-pant is illegal. If an offence is committed, the police should arrest the offenders regardless of their political affliation.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mucheleka (Lubansenshi): Mr Speaker, it is true that the people’s confidence in the police has reached an all-time low. It is at its lowest ebb. Is it possible that the Government can consider restructuring the top police command so as to restore a bit of confidence in the general public?

Mr Lungu:Mr Speaker, we will welcome proposals for instructing the police at the top level from the hon. Member. He should meet me when we go on break.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Pande (Kasempa): Mr Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Minister for that statement. Going by what he has stated, most of the blame goes to the police.  Since he has established that the police are scared of party cadres, I would like to find out from him what his action will be against the police. Is he going to discipline them or give them an assurance that no action will be taken against any police officer who will take action against any cadre? So, there are two questions there.

Mr Speaker: Before, the hon. Minister responds, let me advise that you are limited to one question. I already have a very long list before me pending. So, restrict yourselves to one question.

Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, the police fear to enforce the law because of the legacy we inherited which we are trying to bury. We have constantly assured the police that they will not be pounded or harassed for enforcing the law. We will not take pressure from anyone in the party to intimidate the police from doing that which is right. That is what I have clearly said.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mweetwa (Choma Central): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs, recently, told the nation that the Secretary-General of the PF should end the indiscipline of the cadres. It has become abundantly clear that the PF Secretary-General, Hon. Wynter Kabimba, is now a victim of the indisciplined cadres of his party whom, we are told, are being funded by a tribal clique within the party.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Mweetwa: Who is now going to end the indiscipline which is rife in the PF?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, I think, I do not want to be dragged into matters of the Secretary-General and his political party, the PF. I was talking about the Public Order Act and the land- grabbing wrangles in Lusaka.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lungu: Sir, the PF has internal procedures for disciplining people in the party. I am the Chairperson for discipline and my Secretary-General also has his powers. We will deal with the internal wrangles in the PF. So, leave us alone to sort out those problems.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, secondly, I think the hon. Member who is asking this question is very much interested in matters of the PF. Thus, I think he should join us.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lungu: This is because I issued …

Mr Speaker: Hon. Minister, you can launch that campaign outside the Floor of this House. I will not permit you to recruit members here.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mufalali (Senanga): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister said that the procession was peaceful. We live on the planet earth which is part of the constellation and the galaxies that came from the hand of God. We saw the procession. How peaceful was it? On the claim that the cadres had a permit, why were the police putting barriers which the PF cadres kept overrunning, using a lot of force? The cadres even, later, started jumping on top of the police vehicles. Can that be described as a peaceful demonstration?

Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, I do not know where the hon. Member got his facts from or if he was part of the demonstrators. However, I would like to correct the impression that he has given that we give permits. We do not give permits. It is just pure notification and the police will let you go on with your activity. So, there was no issuance of permits in all these cases. The police were on board and were monitoring and controlling the situation involving the PF cadres. So, if he was part of the demonstrators and he jumped a barrier, I may not be aware of that. The report I received was that the demonstrations were peaceful.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Kazonga (Vubwi): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister in his statement indicated that the PF cadres were allowed to have their procession up to Kabwe Roundabout and, from there, up to Ben Bella Road. This is the typical Central Business District of Lusaka City Council and the timing was at the peak of business activities in the city. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister why this procession was allowed in such an area and at that particular time causing a negative impact on the business environment in Lusaka.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, I have already stated that it is the police who enforce the Public Order Act. However, if there are people who are aggrieved, they eventually end up in my office and we do follow through their complaints. I always endeavour to let people do their job, but if I find them wanting, I will interrogate them.

Sir, in this case, all I can say is that I will try to find out if at all there was any inconvenience caused to the public during that time. The report that I got was that all went well. If there are people who were there and were aggrieved, they ought to have brought their grievances to my attention almost immediately. The report I got was that everything went well. Whether or not the demonstration took place during peak hours is not the issue. The police use their discretion to determine what time the demonstrations can take place. If they say you can proceed, you are free to do so. I cannot begin interrogating them as to why they allowed a procession at a peak time. However, if there was any distortion or disruption, I will try to engage them and tell them that, in future, they should be mindful of the time that they allow people to demonstrate. I do not want to be the one who should be making the decisions.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mutelo (Lukulu West): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister talked of a legacy which he said stems back from the UNIP days. Since it is almost fifty years down the line, do you still want to keep the same legacy of imisango yabachairman? If the police fear the chairpersons of political parties, how can they fail not to fear the secretaries?

Mr Speaker: I will not allow the hon. Minister to answer that question.

Rev. Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha (Keembe): Mr Speaker, first of all, I would like to say that I am very disappointed with the answers that the hon. Minister is giving us regarding a matter that is very important to the country.

Sir, I remember that, at one time, Hon. Mucheleka was attacked in his constituency. The PF cadres were hired from Kasama to go and disrupt his meeting. I spoke to the hon. Minister of Justice, Hon. Kabimba, SC., and told him that unless this issue was dealt with decisively, it was going to get to him also.

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Rev. Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha: Hon. Lungu, it is important to deal with this issue …

Mr Speaker: I am getting anxious, hon. Member for Keembe. What is your point of clarification?

Rev. Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha: Is it not better to deal with the issue now rather than give us flimsy answers because we are going towards 2016? It will get worse if we do not deal with it now. Let us not protect the police. Let us deal with this big issue now.

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, you are only supposed to rise on points of clarification.

Mr Lufuma (Kabompo West):  Thank you very much, Mr Chairman.


Mr Lufuma: I beg your pardon, Mr Speaker. I do not know what is happening. Please, forgive me.

Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has kept on saying that according to the report he was given, everything went well. The citizens of this country are, however, seeing things differently. Why the discrepancy, hon. Minister?

Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, I am not ashamed to admit that I depend on reports in most cases. When chance allows, I do visit and get entangled in these situations. I do not think that it is the hon. Member’s intention to always be on the spot when the police are policing.

Sir, when we have adverse reports regarding the conduct of the police, we engage in an inquisition to find out from them what went wrong. I am hearing about the terrible violence from an hon. Member who was not even there. I want to appeal to the hon. Member to bring a report to me, specifying what went wrong and I will take it up with the police.

I thank you, Sir.



Dr Musokotwane (Liuwa): Mr Speaker, people are very concerned with the behaviour of the police. However, we have been told that they act professionally.

Mr Speaker, I attended the funeral service for the late Hon. George Kunda, SC., where His Excellency the President, ordered the Inspector-General of Police to go and arrest Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) members who were making noise outside.

Sir, can His Honour the Vice-President clarify whether, indeed, he expects the people of Zambia to believe that the police act professionally when evidence is there, of the Head of State, himself, inciting the police to arrest people?

The Vice-President (Dr Scott): Mr Speaker, I was present throughout the late Hon. George Kunda’s funeral. It happened sixteen months ago. I do not recall the incident.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

The Vice-President: I do not even recall what tone of voice the President used, whether serious or off-the-cuff. I am afraid that I am not a machine that can regurgitate that event. I am sorry.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Bwalya (Lupososhi): Mr Speaker, the contract for digital migration has been cancelled because of the irregularities which were involved when it was being awarded.

Sir, the 2015 deadline for digital migration is fast approaching. Are we going digital by 2015?

The Vice-President: Sir, we expect to meet the deadline.

I thank you. 

Professor Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Mr Speaker, the construction sector is key to the economic growth of our country.

Unfortunately, the cost of cement in different parts of the country is getting beyond the reach of many people. In Kalabo, cement is costing K110 per pocket. In Chavuma, cement is going at K120 per pocket. In Mbala, Mongu and Chipata, cement is at K95 per pocket. What strategic interventions is the Executive taking to ensure that cement is affordable for the majority of our people?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, we are encouraging new investment in the cement manufacturing industry, especially in remote areas like Msoro in Malambo.  We are encouraging investment in such areas because all the cement is either being brought in from Malawi or Lusaka.

We are not going to go into the cement manufacturing business as the Government. This would be against the Patriotic Front (PF) policy. All we can do is encourage development investment and competition. I am sure this is what the questioner himself would do if he were the hon. Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry for this Government.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, after the passing of the Markets and Bus Stations Act, an assurance, on the Floor of this House, was made by the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing that no individual or individuals would be allowed to take over the running of bus stations and markets in this country and that this responsibility would lie with council officials.

Mr Speaker, two weeks ago, the PF Provincial Youth Chairperson made an announcement that effective from that date, the PF cadres would take over the running of all the bus stations and the markets in Lusaka ...

Hon. Opposition Members:Aah!

Mr Mwiimbu: … due to the failure by the Government to honour its pledge to the party cadres of more money in their pockets.

Mr Speaker, three days ago, the PF cadres effected that pronouncement. They have taken over the running of the bus stations and markets and are collecting levies from members of the public.

Hon. Opposition Members: Shame!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, the lawlessness that is obtaining now as a result of the crisis in the PF is affecting council and Government operations. I would like to find out from His Honour the Vice-President what measures the Government will take to ensure that public property and resources are protected from the so-called indisciplined party cadres who have taken over the running of the markets and bus stations in this country. 

The Vice-President:Mr Speaker, all I can do, really, is to underline the general theme of the ministerial statement by the hon. Minister of Home Affairs that the law must prevail at all times. It is unfortunate that we were left with an enormous legacy of misallocated land, including Sichifulo, which the United Party for National Development (UPND) brought to our attention, but then abandoned.

We have had to take a lot of regularising measures and will continue to do so. We will not permit any cadres, self-appointed, imitative or even real ones to run this country. The law is the law and it will be enforced.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Simbao (Senga Hill): Mr Speaker, immediately after the by-elections, we talked about the violence that was going on in the country. We were told that there was no violence. Since then, the situation has become worse. I would like to find out from His Honour the Vice-President what message the PF Government is passing on to Zambians.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I am a little bit lost with that question. What violence is the hon. Member referring to? There are murders happening everyday in Zambia just like in any other country. There are also fights between people and domestic brawls. There are child marriages which are contrary to the law and many nasty things happening in this country. However, I find it very difficult to respond to the allegation that the violence in this country is getting out of control.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Speaker, in the last few weeks, the African Parliamentarians Network Against Corruption (APNAC) as well as Transparency International, Zambian Chapter, have urged the hon. Minister of Home Affairs seated right next to you, to cancel the Safe City Project, worth US $210 million and the Digital Migration Project, which the current Permanent Secretary of the Ministry of Information and Broadcasting has candidly stated has stenches of corruption. Why has the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) not moved in to commence investigations into the alleged corruption in these two projects? Is the ACC following the President’s directive which was issued when the Minister of Justice, Hon. Wynter Kabimba was summoned to appear before it, that top Government officials and the kith and kin should not be investigated without clearance from him?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, firstly, let me say how happy I am to see that summer has reached Mazabuka such that an individual from there can remove hair from his head and be perfectly comfortable.


The Vice-President: The question really …

Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Sir.


Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, I am sure you agree with me as you are sitting in your Chair that the question I asked His Honour the Vice-President is of a very serious nature. Is he in order to trivialise my question by first speaking about summer which we are all in at the moment, while he is filibustering?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: I note that His Honour the Vice-President was just on the verge of responding to your question. As usual, he had to be humourous in the beginning.

May His Honour the Vice-President continue.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I hope the one who asked the question will, one day, in his life, come to stand here because he clearly understands how it works when a person is here.


The Vice-President: I can only look into the matters referred to by the hon. Member in more detail later. I understand that the matters are before the ACC. However, I do not know at which level they have reached.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwila (Chipili): Mr Speaker, I would like His Honour the Vice-President to inform this House on the roadmap for the Constitution-making process since the Technical Committee will complete its work any time from now.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mucheleka: Ntondo Chindoloma! Ema MPs aba!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the Technical Committee, through its work, will provide us with a roadmap. When this document is out, then we will know the roadmap. Until then, we are as ignorant as the hon. Member, on the roadmap.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.


Ms Lubezhi (Namwala): Mr Speaker, Zambia Railways Limited is one of the beneficiaries of the Eurobond. On Wednesday, this week, the management of Zambia Railways Limited made a donation which was intended to go towards giving a facelift to the Godfrey Chitalu Stadium that belongs to Kabwe Warriors Football Club. Going by the current economic status of Zambia Railways Limited, would His Honour the Vice-President not agree with me that such a donation is a misplacement of Government resources?

Mr Kambwili: Question!


Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Livune: Son of my father.

Mr Speaker: Order!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, how we look at different things depends on our sense of judgement. Hon. Kambwili has expressed his view indirectly, but very clearly and other keen football supporters would, perhaps, agree that it was better to use the money that way than to provide a locomotive with a facelift. However, I believe that it is not too late for the hon. Member to write to me to ask me to develop some guidelines for corporate social responsibility for public institutions.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Miyanda (Mapatizya): Mr Speaker, 600 women and men have been arrested because of having trespassed on some land. I would like to find out from His Honour the Vice-President what his Government is doing to assist these landless people as we do not want to see a situation which happened in a neighbouring country where white farmers left that country happen here as well.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, my office has a Resettlement Department. All over Zambia, we have resettlement areas for landless people. That is just part of the machinery which is there to try to accommodate people who have no land. I am sure the hon. Member will agree with me that we cannot allow a situation where individuals invade other people’s territory so that their own chiefs start pushing them out of game management areas (GMAs). We need to ensure that law and order is followed. Land situations are very difficult to handle. There was, for example, the situation that happened at the Kenneth Kaunda International Airport area, involving Galaunia Farms Limited and Kampasa residents. There were genuinely vulnerable people in those illegal settlements as well as what they call carpetbaggers, who are people such as town lawyers who deal in land in a speculative fashion. When handling land matters, it is necessary to involve the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU) so that it can provide tents and food for the innocent people. Land issues are very complicated.

Sir, the Sichifulo case involved five different Government departments. The military, police, intelligence, DMMU and Resettlement Department. It is a pity that land problems have been allowed to accumulate.

The problem we had yesterday started to develop years ago, long before, the PF came in to people in the western part of Lusaka. When the then Minister of Justice, the late George Kunda, SC., was given the actual documentation by the hon. Minister responsible for land under the MMD, he opted to side with the farm owners which happened to be honourable at that time, but then when the learned Wynter Kabimba, SC., was given the documentation, he felt that there was no need to allow this problem to continue like a rodent ulcer. We have serious problems. We are trying, on the positive side, to take care of the vulnerable people, but at the same time, we cannot allow lawlessness to prevail.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Matafwali (Bangweulu): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out what the Government’s position is, regarding the arrests of President Uhuru Kenyatta and his Vice-President in Kenya by the International Criminal Court (ICC).

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, with your indulgence, I will duck that problem as it involves commenting on events in a neighbouring territory.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Antonio (Kaoma Central): Mr Speaker, in some parts of our country, farmers will start planting their crops next month while others have not received their seeds. I would like to know what the position of the Government is concerning the supplying of seeds to our farmers.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, it is very difficult to provide information that was given at considerable length, which led to the considerable questioning yesterday of the hon. Minister responsible for seed and fertiliser distribution. The hon. Member has to spare me from having to devote the whole of the Vice-President’s Question Time to discussing agriculture inputs. I do not know whether the hon. Member walked out of the House or not when that issue was being discussed yesterday.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.


Mr Livune (Katombola): Mr Speaker, at the start of the marketing season, Zambia had targeted to procure 500,000 metric tonnes of maize for domestic consumption. At the rate we are going, and the way things are, is His Honour the Vice-President confident that we shall meet our target?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the Food Reserve Agency (FRA) is responsible for taking care of the strategic reserves of maize and rice or any other commodity in Zambia. The situation has been normalised because last year, and the year before, it was exceptional because of the elections and heavy subsidies. The FRA was actually handling and channelling all the maize for consumption and subsidising it in the process. This year, what is happening is that the strategic reserve has been set at 500,000 metric tonnes. More than 400,000 metric tonnes have been procured and not sold to millers. The millers are being asked to get maize for themselves on the market. We need to make sure we do not suddenly run out because the neighbouring country over-consumes our maize or something like that. So, the 400,000 metric tonnes should be adequate, but hopefully it will reach 500,000 metric tonnes, if we extend the buying season for another month.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Mr Speaker, the field proposed for the construction of the much- talked about stadium in the Western Province is becoming a forest and, so, I would like to find out how far the plans for the construction works are.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I would like to thank the former hon. Deputy Minister for that question.


The Vice-President: Sir, I am afraid I do not know the precise answer and, again, it goes with my usual advice, which is that, if you let me know 24 hours ahead of this session, I can easily find out. It is extremely easy to do that unlike when I am on my feet in this Chamber.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Konga (Chavuma): Mr Speaker, today, we have heard that there is failure by various Government agencies such as the councils and the police to enforce the law. Does this mean that, with this failure, the Government is now promoting anarchy?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I think that is the opposite of what we have been saying. What we have been saying is that we intend to have zero tolerance towards anarchy in this country, even if it means that we become unpopular because of some unnecessary or necessary suffering to vulnerable people. We will try our best to protect the innocent, but will run this country based on law and order. That has been the thrust of every answer which has been given today by myself and the hon. Minister of Home Affairs. So, hon. Member, maybe, you left the Chamber and came back just recently.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Ms Kalima (Kasenengwa): Mr Speaker, on Muvi Television last night, the Lusaka Province District PF Chairperson, Mr Chikwelete stated that he liaised with the police and authorised them to arrest the cadres in Kanyama so they could confirm whether they were really PF cadres. We have seen that the police escort the processions by the anti-Wynter Kabimba protestors led by Mr Chikwelete. Is it now the Government’s policy that the police should get instructions from district party chairpersons?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, as we stated earlier, that is exactly the opposite of our Government’s policy. We do not intend to allow party officials of any standing at all, to give instructions to the police and other law enforcement agencies. In fact, the gentleman she is referring to is not the PF District Chairperson. He is a self-appointed PF Chairperson of Lusaka District.


Mr Speaker: Order!

He is responding.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, is the information of interest or not, I wonder?

Mr Speaker: Proceed.

The Vice-President: Sir, this country will be run based on law and order and not by party officials.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Kapyanga (Kabwe Central): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out what the level of performance for the Zambian contractors, who are participating in the various road works is.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I would require to conduct some research to answer that very broad question properly because it requires a tabulation of the contracts and all the relevant details. Again, I need sufficient notice for such questions. I cannot produce answers out of a hat like a rabbit.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Kalila (Lukulu East): Mr Speaker, it is a well-known fact that the Western Province, is among the least developed in this country. It is characterised by high poverty levels and poor infrastructure, particularly roads such as the Katunda/Watopa Road. Given the fore-going, is it good management to start by constructing a stadium in Mongu instead of the Katunda/Watopa Road?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, man cannot live on roads alone.


The Vice-President: Sir, it is necessary to build hospitals. It is also desirable to build sports stadia. Life in the Western Province is not as backward as the hon. Member seems to be suggesting. The other day, my wife left Livingstone at 0900 hours in the morning, and arrived in Mongu while it was still not dark having gone through Sesheke, Sioma and Senanga into Mongu. Hon. Member, please, do not tell me that there is no development going on in the Western Province.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Mr Speaker, His Honour the Vice-President has been quoted in one of the tabloids as saying that there is tribal prejudice and corruption in his party. If these things are there, why did he not report them to the ACC?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I am not quite sure what I would say to the ACC about tribal inclinations. All I said in that tabloid was that I am not an expert on tribal inclinations unless being Scottish is a tribe and that we needed to calm the whole situation down. That is all I said about tribalism. As for corruption, people who are corrupt hide under power. That is the case throughout the world. They are drawn to power because it protects them and that is all I am saying. I am also saying that do not think that every cadre who is wearing a green chitenge has necessarily got the approval of the PF Party. It is very naïve to think that way. The hon. Member must read the article and not just the headline.


The Vice-President: The headline writers are not the people who write the articles.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwanza (Solwezi West): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out about the deep-rooted concerns and divisions in the Ruling Party and in the Lubemba area. The Bembas are saying that they do not want the PF Government. Can His Honour the Vice-President confirm if that is true.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!


The Vice-President:Mr Speaker, unfortunately for the hon. Member, the PF Government is here to stay.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: We are aware of the concerns that are being expressed. We are like the baby of the electorate. They do not want to see us fail. They are worried by rumours of friction and partition. People are worried about the state of the patient. They are not mourning our death, which is not even around the corner. So, we will work together, to run this country and do what we were elected to do for many years to come. Maybe, it will be for eighteen years or more, by which time we will all be too old and be handing over to our grandchildren. I am sorry that the time is up since some hon. Members asked some very good questions, but I do not think Tom and Jerry has one.

I thank you, Sir.





46. Mr Antonio (Kaoma Central) asked the Minister of Home Affairs:

(a) when construction works for the following would commence:

(i) Kaoma Police Station;
(ii) offices for the Zambia Police Force, in Nkeyema District; and
(iii) police posts in Shimano, Mawila and Kalumwange;

(b) when renovation works at Kaoma State Prison would commence; and

(c) when works to improve sanitary conditions at the prison would commence.

The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Chilangwa): Mr Speaker, currently, the Kaoma Police Station operates in a building belonging to the Ministry of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education which, also, is not in a good state. Nevertheless, the Patriotic Front (PF) Government is committed to constructing both office and staff accommodation for the Zambia Police Force in the district as part of the planned Infrastructure Development Plan (IDP) for all departments in the Ministry of Home Affairs. These plans have now reached a very advanced stage.

Mr Speaker, Nkeyema is among the nine newly-created districts in the Western Province. The Government, through the IDP, intends to construct both office and staff accommodation for law enforcement officers in all the newly-created districts, Nkeyema being one of them.

The Shimano and Mawila Police posts are located in the newly-created Nkeyema District with Kalumwange being located in Kaoma District. Therefore, it is the intention of the Government to provide law enforcement services to all the areas in need in the country. However, construction works at Shimano, Mawila and Kalumwange Police posts will be part of the bigger IDP.

Mr Speaker, the Zambia Prisons Service will commence renovation works at the Kaoma State Prison in October, 2013. The Government, through the Ministry of Home Affairs, has already acquired building materials for this exercise. Works to improve sanitary conditions at the Kaoma State Prison will commence in October, 2013, at the same time with renovation works of the prison. You may further wish to note that the building materials have already been procured.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Antonio: Mr Speaker, …

Mr Mbewe: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, I am confused with the way things are happening under the PF Government. I am very disappointed. I do not believe it that an answer can come from His Honour the Vice-President to indicate to the nation that MrChikwelete is a self-imposed PF Chairperson for Lusaka District when, during the meeting in Chawama, the Republican President clearly stated that he is the new PF Chairperson for Lusaka District. Is the Vice-President in order to go against the appointments of his boss and mislead the nation that Mr Chikwelete is a self-imposed leader? I need your serious ruling, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: We are now looking at questions for oral answer.


Mr Antonio: Mr Speaker, when will these works start because the answer that the hon. Deputy Minister has given has just stated generally that there is a programme in place? The local government authority has already allocated land to the police for the construction of the police station and houses.

Mr Chilangwa: Mr Speaker, at the beginning of this year, there was an advertisement in the press for the start of the roll-out of the IDP for the Ministry of Home Affairs. Unfortunately, it could not proceed because we wanted to look at certain issues. We do not want to embark on a programme which involves a lot of money and then, at the end of the day, the African Parliamentarians Network Against Corruption (APNAC) accuses us of not following the correct procedure. Following procedure is for the good of this country and we shall continue doing so.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mufalali (Senanga): Mr Speaker, the junior hon. Minister has indicated that the materials for the renovation of the Kaoma State Prison have already been procured. What mode of construction will be used at the prison? Is it a community or contract mode and who is the contractor?

Mr Chilangwa: Mr Speaker, it is not everything that is done in the Government that must be by contract. We have departments within the Government that can do minor works. We have, within the Zambia Prisons Service, a department that can do minor renovations. It is the one that is going to do the renovations at the Kaoma State Prison.

I thank you, Sir.


47. Mr Antonio asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing:

(a) when a new market would be constructed in Nkeyema District; and

(b) when drainages would be constructed in Kaoma Township.

The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr Kufuna):Mr Speaker, Nkeyema District is not among the districts allocated funding in the current fiscal year. The Government has plans to construct modern markets and bus stations in all districts, including Nkeyema. However, these are high capital projects and, at the moment, funds are not yet available. The district council is advised, through the area Member of Parliament, to plan for a market and submit the designs and priced bill of quantities to the Ministry of Local Government and Housing for consideration in the 2014 Budget.

Mr Speaker, the ministry is in the process of constructing roadside drainage system whilst implementing road projects earmarked for Kaoma District which will start around mid-2014.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Antonio: MrSpeaker, …

Mr Mutelo: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mutelo: Mr Speaker, allow me to quote today’s Post newspaper, on page 4:

“Vice-President Dr Guy Scott says there is some element of tribal prejudice at work in the calls for PF Secretary-General Wynter Kabimba to resign. And Vice-President Scott says there is also a large element of corruption involved in the people who are causing confusion in the PF because they are trying to immunise themselves against forces of law and order.”

Mr Speaker, I do not wish to go through the whole story. However, is His Honour the Vice-President in order not to report this large element of corruption to the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC)? I seek your serious ruling and I will lay this paper on the Table of the House. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutelo laid the paper on the Table.

Mr Speaker: My ruling is that this issue relating to one political grouping in the House has, since yesterday, been a subject of points of order of one sort or the other. I want to make it clear that a political party, for all intents and purposes, is a private association. It is not a branch of the Government. It is a private association. It may, of course, as the case is, yield State power in a constitutional democracy, but still maintains that private character and, therefore, the internal goings-on of whether one is an elected district chairperson or not cannot be subject of my jurisdiction. Whether there is discipline or not in that internal organisation is not my jurisdiction. It may be very exciting to refer to it on the Floor of the House, but it is still not my business as Speaker. That also goes for organisations that may be enjoying peace. It is not my business. I can only wish you well ...

Hon. UPND Member: Like us!


Mr Speaker: … in your endeavours. So, there is, really, no point to drag these matters to the Floor of the House. You are, of course, free to politic them outside.


Mr Speaker: If there are crimes of whatever sort that are committed, there are, equally, agencies responsible for attending to those issues, not the Speaker.


Mr Speaker: There are established offices such as the Zambia Police Force or ACC. In fact, they encourage you to interact with them. You must resort to them. In the meantime, let us confine ourselves to our business.

The Hon. Member for Kalomo Central may continue.

Mr Antonio: Mr Speaker, Nkeyema District is one of the newly-created districts. Now, the little structure that is currently used as a market is earmarked to be turned into the office for the District Commissioner (DC) as the administration centre. Where will the people who were trading in this little shelter trade from? 

The Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mrs Kabanshi):Mr Speaker, I advise the hon. Member of Parliament to put what he has said in writing so that we can investigate the issues he has raised.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mufalali: MrSpeaker, …

Mr Mulusa: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mulusa:MrSpeaker, today is a very sad day in my career.

Mr Mbewe: I am very sorry!

Mr Mulusa: I have never had a day when my integrity has been questioned. Sir, in the morning, I genuinely asked a question as a follow-up to the assurance by the hon. Minister of Home Affairs that the law was being applied equally. It was alleged that I had actually smeared myself with tomato sauce in Mkaika and that I was under police investigation. I drove home and collected the clothes I wore on that day so that I could lay them on the Table.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulusa: However, I have been guided by the Clerk of the National Assembly that Parliament does not have the facilities and would not engage in the process of verifying whether what was on my clothes was blood or tomato source. I have respected that guidance, but the clothes will be on display in the foyer for inspection by the hon. Members of Parliament.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulusa: Sir, is the hon. Deputy Minister of Home Affairs, Hon. Kampyongo, through Hon. Lungu, in order to question the integrity of another hon. Member of Parliament whom he met with and saw the blood that was on him and laughed? Is he in order to insinuate that I can seek cheap publicity to go as far as smearing myself with tomato sauce at midnight to show that I was attacked?

Sir, I will proceed to lay a medical report on the Table to show that I presented myself to the police and was examined at the hospital.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulusa laid the paper on the Table.

Mr Speaker: Order!

My ruling is that these are potentially contestable matters. I do not think that, given the character of the complaints, I am seized with the competence to decide on the veracity or otherwise of these insinuations. I am not in a position to do so. However, this is also a reminder of a very time-honoured practice, and I suppose that is why it is impressed on us that it is highly improper for us to debate ourselves. These are the challenges that arise when you begin debating yourselves and naming each other in these accounts. This is quite a complex legal situation. As much as you may feel injured, it is a complex legal question. All I can do is urge you to seek legal counsel. That is all I can say to the extent that you feel that your reputation was injured. I cannot carry the matter further than that. I am not a court, and I am not a legal counsel, at least, as I sit here. 

Hon. Member for Senanga, you may continue.

Mr Mufalali: Mr Speaker, the junior hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing indicated that they have plans to build a market for Nkeyema District. However, in the same breath, he said that the hon. Member of Parliament should provide structural plans and cost estimates. Why is he transferring the job of the …

Mr Mweetwa: On a point of order, Sir.


Mr Speaker: Order!

A point of order is raised.

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to raise this point of order and I would like to apologise to the hon. Member who was on the Floor for interrupting him.

Mr Speaker, this House is a very serious one. Thus, when hon. Ministers come to issue ministerial statements, the nation takes them as factual. Is the hon. Minister of Home Affairs in order to come here and mislead this House by saying that the hon. Member of Parliament for Solwezi Central smeared tomatoes on himself in order to create a situation which did not happen. Is he in order to mislead this House?

Mr Speaker: Order!

I have already ruled on that point. Hon. Member for Senanga, you may continue.

Mr Mufalali: Mr Speaker, I was saying that the junior hon. Minister of the Local Government and Housing indicated that the hon. Member of Parliament should take the responsibility of providing structural plans and cost estimates for the market. Why does the hon. Minister think that it is prudent for the hon. Member of Parliament to go into a process which is supposed to be handled by his ministry?

Mrs Kabanshi: Mr Speaker, what my hon. Deputy Minister said was that since the hon. Member of Parliament is here, he should engage the council so that the engineers at the council can come up with a plan …

Mr Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1045 hours until 1100 hours.

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

Mr Kufuna: Mr Speaker, what the hon. Minister meant was that the hon. Member of Parliament can tell the council engineer to come up with a bill of quantities which can be sent to the ministry.

I thank you, Sir.


48. Mr M. Malama (Chitambo) asked the Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication:

(a) whether the Government had any plans to build a bridge across Mulembo River to link Muchinka and Chitambo wards in Chitambo Parliamentary Constituency;

(b) if so, when the project would commence; and

(c) what the duration of the project was.

The Deputy Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication (Mr M. H. Malama): Mr Speaker, the Government has no immediate plan to build a bridge across Mulembo River to link Muchinka and Chitambo wards in Chitambo Parliamentary Constituency. The hon. Member should submit the above-proposed bridge for inclusion on the district council priority list for consideration by the Road Development Agency (RDA) in its annual work plan.

I thank you, Sir.


49. Mr Katuka (Mwinilunga) asked the Minister of Commerce Trade and Industry what measures the Government had taken to find an investor to revive the Mwinilunga Pineapple Cannery which had been inoperational for many years.

The Deputy Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry (Mr Sampa): Mr Speaker, the old plant is non-existent. It was closed in 1995, which is about eighteen years ago. What is required is a completely new investment in the pineapple value addition chain in Mwinilunga, Ikeleng’i and other areas of the North-Western Province. The Government is promoting the establishment of firms to undertake the production and processing of pineapples rather than just focussing on the defunct Mwinilunga Pineapple Cannery. The cannery is not there anymore. Therefore, instead of concentrating on just that cannery, we are encouraging people to start new businesses in the same sector. We are taking a holistic approach by promoting the entry of as many investors as possible through the Zambia Development Agency (ZDA), to come and invest in the production and processing of pineapples in the province. Through the Citizens Economic Empowerment Fund (CEEC), we have identified the pineapple as one of the target crops for value addition through the value chain model.

  The fund will support value adding projects across the value chain for pineapples. We trust that this will ensure that citizens participate in economic activities in the province. The CEEC will be rolling-out interventions to address supply side constraints on raw materials by building capacities in local farmers in and around Mwinilunga and Ikeleng’i districts.

Sir, with these measures in place, we are confident that the wastage of pineapples in the province will soon come to an end.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Katuka:MrSpeaker, …

Mr Mweetwa: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mweetwa:Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me yet another opportunity to raise what I consider to be a serious procedural point of order.

Sir, in his ministerial statement, this morning, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs told this House and the nation that the application of the Public Order Act is not selective. He went on to cite various public meetings which have been held by the Opposition in order to substantiate his claim. One of the examples he gave was to the effect that recently, the President of the United Party for National Development (UPND), Mr Hakainde Hichilema was allowed to hold public rallies in Mwinilunga and Solwezi. This is contrary to what happened.

Mr Speaker, the facts are that on 15th September, 2013, the UPND leader held a closed door meeting with party officials in a Catholic Church building because the police did not allow him to hold a public rally. The following day, on 16th September, 2013, the UPND leader held a closed door meeting with party officials in the former Engineering Services Corporation (ESCO) building because, again, the police did not allow him to hold a public rally.

Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister of Home Affairs, therefore, in order to mislead this hon. House and the nation at large with the statements he is making in response to their selective application of the Public Order Act? I seek your serious ruling.


Mr Speaker: Order!

The difficulty I have with this point of order is that it has come well after the item it is related to.

Hon. Opposition Members: He went to research.

Mr Speaker: There are rules. It can take a year to research, but it is still ex post facto. There are rules which must be followed. If you had that information at the material time, I would have probably taken a different position. However, in the nature of the rules and practice, I cannot, through a point of order, go back to what was discussed earlier even if I empathise with you.

May the hon. Member for Mwinilunga continue, please.

Mr Katuka: Mr Speaker, efforts have been made before, by the co-operatives, to try to access the CEEC Fund. They have made proposals at high costs which have not been responded to. What assurance can I get from the hon. Minister that, this time, around, if the members of the co-operatives wrote a proposal, they will definitely access the money to establish a small cannery in Mwinilunga?

The Minister of Agriculture and Livestock (Mr Sichinga) (on behalf of the Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry (Mr Chenda)):Mr Speaker, it is not guaranteed that any application or proposal will automatically be funded by the CEEC.  The requirement is that there should be economic justification for funding the project. There is a need to show that the project will be profitable enough to repay the loan. Having said that, I wish to offer the following information which will be of help to not only the hon. Member of Parliament for Mwinilunga, but also other hon. Members as well.

Sir, Mwinilunga area has been earmarked as an agricultural zone. Amongst the items that are being considered, at the moment, is the entire value chain of not only pineapples, but also other produce in the area.

Mr Speaker, we have made the Mwinilunga area a farming block so that we can call for investment into that area. As the hon. Deputy Minister has indicated, we are marketing the farm block in the area to ensure that the value addition which takes account of not only the pineapples, but also other products is going to be taken into consideration. In fact, I am on a trip to the Middle East in a few days time, where we shall be marketing such areas.

So, I would like to inform the hon. Member of Parliament and others in the area, including Ikeleng’i, that we are not resting in our efforts to develop their areas. 

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

Mr Simbao (Senga Hill): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out whether the hon. Members do not realise and understand that until they empower Zambians to own the plant and capital, there will not be an investor who will come to invest in pineapple canneries. When this Government came into power, it said that it would open up such factories in one year. I can see this is not happening even after five years. Does the hon. Minister not see the need for us to empower Zambians?

Mr Sampa: Mr Speaker, I agree with the hon. Member who posed that question. Indeed, that is just what we are doing. Other than the CEEC Fund, this Government also took part of the Eurobond amounting to about US$10 million and invested it in the Development Bank of Zambia (DBZ). We are now asking Zambians to borrow that money for projects like pineapple cannaries.

Therefore, I encourage all ingenious people from the North-Western Province to go to the DBZ to borrow funds so that they can open up canneries. They should not wait for the Government to invite them to the table. They should be pro-active and bring bankable projects to the DBZ. The money is there to be collected and utilised for that purpose.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mufalali: Mr Speaker, the PF Government informed us that it was going to come up with industrial clusters in Mwinilunga. Why have they decided to keep quiet? I thought that the pineapple industry would have been part of those clusters.

Mr Sichinga:Mr Speaker, we have turned a number of areas into farming blocks so that we can emphasise the value chain system. A value chain which includes agro-processing is exactly what is going to address not only the issues in Mwinilunga, but also elsewhere.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza):Mr Speaker, may I find out from the hon. Minister …

Ms Lubezhi: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Ms Lubezhi: Mr Speaker, actually, it is on a point of procedure. Is it in order for the Cabinet Minister and hon. Deputy Minister to keep taking turns when responding to questions? I seek your serious ruling.

Mr Speaker: Order!

I have not followed your point of order.

Ms Lubezhi: Mr Speaker, I rise on a point of procedure. Is it in order for the hon. Minister and hon. Deputy to keep taking turns when responding to questions?


Mr Speaker: Order!

There is nothing wrong with that.

Hon. Opposition Member: Aah! 

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, this industry has not been working for a long time and that means a lot of things have been vandalised. What the hon. Minister has said makes it seem like the Government has found it difficult to look for money to revive the pineapple cannery industry. Can the Government sell this industry off so that individuals can try to run it better than the Government.

Mr Sichinga: Mr Speaker, maybe, I should take this opportunity to respond to the issue which was raised by Hon. Lubezhi. I am the Acting Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry. So, I can answer these questions.

Sir, we said that there are no buildings which were left behind in Mwinilunga which were part of the cannery industry. So, I do not know what we would be selling. There is nothing on the ground at all. So, there is nothing that can be sold to another organisation to set up a factory. That is why we have come up with a holistic manner of sorting out the problem. We have decided to come up with farming blocks so as to allow agro-processing both at provincial and district level. It is a process and not an event. I would like to assure hon. Members of the House that we are not sitting idly by and waiting on investments that will come from outside.

Mr Speaker, in fact, we are working with emerging, small-scale, medium size and large-scale farmers in these farming blocks.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chipungu (Rufunsa): Mr Speaker, does the Government have an idea of who could have bought this plant? Can we make attempts to find out where this leftover machinery is being kept?

Mr Sichinga: Mr Speaker, the privatisation of the industry in question occurred under the MMD Government. At the moment, there are no trails which can be followed. The Privatisation Act provides for Government intervention within three years and, thereafter, the process cannot be reversed. There are many cases where plants were purchased and machines even taken out of the country during the previous Government’s tenure. We are not in a position to answer where the plant would be at this point in time.

I thank you, Sir.


 50. Mr Katukaasked the Minister of Youth and Sport whether the Government had any plans of constructing a modern stadium in the North-Western Province and, if so, where and when the project would commence.

The Deputy Minister of Youth and Sports (Mr Masumba): Mr Speaker, sports infrastructure plays an important role in the development of sport and as such the Ministry of Youth and Sport, through the Sports Policy and the ministry’s strategic plan, has embarked on the construction of sports infrastructure to enhance the level of participation in sports.

Mr Speaker, the cost of constructing a stadium is huge. Therefore, the Government shall only facilitate the construction of a modern stadium in the North-Western Province when funds are available. The works will commence after securing the resources to support the project. The location of the stadium in the North-Western Province will be decided upon in consultation with the relevant stakeholders.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Katuka: Mr Speaker, the North-Western Province houses three big mines. Have there been any engagements with the mines to see whether they can assist in the construction of modern stadiums? I am aware that they have supported sports engagements before.

Mr Masumba: Mr Speaker, I have alluded to the fact that the Government is in the process of securing resources for the construction of a modern stadium in the North-Western Province. Once resources are secured, we will construct a stadium in the province. It is my personal desire to ensure that we have a stadium in the North-Western Province because I come from there.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Pande (Kasempa): Mr Speaker, the answer given by the hon. Deputy Minister indicates that the Government has no plans to construct a modern stadium in the North-Western Province. Feasibility studies should be carried out before you start looking for resources. Can the hon. Minister state whether the Government has any plans to have a stadium in the North-Western Province?

Mr Masumba: Mr Speaker, we have plans. When we decide to move into the North-Western Province to construct the stadium, the nation will be informed.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nkombo(Mazabuka Central): Mr Speaker, the hon. Deputy Minister indicated that the process of sourcing for funds to erect stadiums in the North-Western Province is on. A process is a set of events. May I know at what stage the process is?

Mr Masumba: Mr Speaker, we are at the mobilisation stage.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Hamudulu (Siavonga): Mr Speaker, we know that the Government has embarked on the process of constructing modern stadia in some other provinces. May I know from the Junior Minister what criteria was used to choose areas where stadiums are being built and how the North-Western Province failed to meet that criteria.

Mr Speaker: Before the hon. Deputy Minister responds, there is some consternation on some issue I need to address. In a point of order relating to the Ministry of Defence, I indicated how undesirable it was for a junior Minister to be inconsistent with a Cabinet Minister. I used that to contrast seniority. I used the word ‘junior’ in a literal sense.

The constitutional reference to the position in question is that of Deputy Minister. I made that ruling to contrast and underscore the need for consistency between a Cabinet Minister and a Deputy.

I know that if you go back in the history to the First Constitution you will find reference to Junior Minister. However, we need to acknowledge the Constitution as it stands with all its references and designations as stipulated in it. For avoidance of confusion in terminology, I henceforth urge that you refer to Deputy Ministers in your speech and not as Junior Ministers.

Mr Masumba: Mr Speaker, with your permission, I request the hon. Member to repeat the question.

  Mr Speaker: The question could be repeated.

Mr Hamudulu: Mr Speaker, let me try to simplify my question. We know that the Government is constructing a number of modern stadia in some provinces. What criteria was used to choose the areas that the Government started with and how did the North-Western Province fail to qualify?

Mr Masumba: Mr Speaker, I think I have already stated that it is the Government’s will to ensure that it builds stadia in almost all the provinces of this country. As such, we shall be moving stage by stage in correlation with the availability of resources. If there are no resources, you do not expect us to do magic.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mweetwa (Choma Central): Mr Speaker, what is involved in this mobilisation stage? What are the other stages so that the people of the North-Western Province can begin to envisage the time frame within which the construction work will take?

Mr Masumba:Mr Speaker, let me take this opportunity to correct my hon. Colleague. The mobilisation which I mentioned was not the one related to the construction works, but the one to do with resources. We are in the process of securing the resources. Once the resources are available, then, we will decide on how to proceed. It is the Government’s will to construct stadia in all the provinces of our country.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!



The Vice-President (Dr Scott)(on behalf of the Minister of Finance( MrChikwanda)):Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the following Members do constitute the Public Accounts Committee (PAC) for the Third Session of the Eleventh National Assembly:

Mr F. Mutati, MP

Mr J. Zimba, MP

Mrs M. G. Imenda, MP

Mr P. M. Mucheleka, MP

Mr C. Matafwali, MP

Mr C. Mweetwa, MP

Mr A. C. Milambo, MP

Mr V. Mwale, MP

Ms C. Namugala, MP.

Mr Speaker, just to avoid any confusion, I wish to make it clear that I am presenting this Motion on behalf of the hon. Minister of Finance, who is normally the person who constitutes the PAC. Since he is Acting President at the moment, he is not in the House. So, sometimes, you will hear me saying, “I did this and I did that.” It is me impersonating the hon. Minister of Finance.

Mr Speaker, let me begin by commending the previous PAC under the leadership of the Member for Chipangali Constituency, Hon. Vincent Mwale, …

Hon. Mwale: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: … whom we see on television very frequently.


The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, in this vein, I have no doubt that the Members that I am proposing today will not disappoint the nation and this House, but will carry on with the good work and do even better, perhaps, than the previous Committee.

Mr Speaker, as you are aware, the work of the PAC has not only generated a lot of interest in the nation about the country’s financial affairs, but has also been seen as the main tool for ensuring that public resources are prudently utilised. It is, therefore, important that the House supports this Motion.

Mr Speaker, when I last moved a similar Motion, I did mention that the Government remained committed to serving the people of Zambia and ensuring that the quality of their lives is improved by ensuring corrupt-free, local and Central Government establishments. This remains the main focus of the Government and I hope that the House will remain supportive to these important calls.

Mr Speaker, to demonstrate its commitment to good governance, the Government has embarked on the implementation of the Public Financial Management Strategy (PFMS). The thrust of this strategy is to ensure the efficient, effective and accountable use of public resources. That is what is needed in the sustainable development of the country. This is what will promote the Government’s objective of poverty eradication. One of the core programmes included under the domestic revenue component of the PFMS is the enhancement of non-tax revenue collection. In this regard, the Government has continued to implement financial management reforms relating to non-tax revenue through the introduction of modern technology that will bring efficiency in the collection and transmission of non-tax revenue to the Treasury. This will also end opaque systems which are often an ideal recipe for abuse and fraudulent activities.

Mr Speaker, I am pleased to announce to this august House that on 18th August, 2013, the Point of Sale Pilot Project targeting the Immigration Department and Road Transport and Safety Agency was launched to enable the general public to pay for Government services without carrying cash.

Sir, it is envisaged that once payments to Government institutions are made through commercial banks, revenue collection will be enhanced and, more importantly, revenue-related queries will be minimised.

Mr Speaker, furthermore, the Government will, between October, 2013 and March, 2015, review the Public Finance Act and the financial regulations in order to address the weaknesses that have been identified by stakeholders. Additionally, with the assistance of the co-operating partners, the Government will undertake a comprehensive staff orientation programme for all accountants, internal auditors, planners and budget analysts.

Sir, in short, the Government has resolved to focus on improving efficiency in order to reduce the wastage of public resources so that the existing resources are used in a more transparent and accountable manner. The Government should ensure that any action or conduct that will be at variance with this position is severely punished.

Sir, this is in line with the announcement by His Excellency the President in his Speech before this august House to mark the Official Opening of the Third Session of the Eleventh National Assembly that the Government has established the Financial Intelligence Unit to deal exclusively with such matters.

Mr Speaker, in conclusion, may I, once more request hon. Members of this House to support the Motion on the Floor. I wish the PAC and this House a very successful session.

I beg to move.