Tuesday, 6^th December, 2016

 

The House met at 1430 hours

 

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

 

NATIONAL ANTHEM

 

PRAYER

 

_________

 

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

 

KALOMO/KABANGA/MAPATIZYA MINES ROAD TARRING

 

42. Mr Miyanda (Mapatizya) asked the Minister of Housing and Infrastructure Development:

 

1. whether the Government had any plans to tar the road from Kalomo via Kabanga to Mapatizya Mines;

 

1. if so, when the plans would be implemented; and

 

1. if there were no plans, why.

 

The Minister of Housing and Infrastructure Development (Mr Chitotela): Mr Speaker, the Government had planned to engage a consultant to carry out a feasibility study and detailed design and tender document for the upgrading to bituminous standard of the Kalomo/Kabanga/Mapatizya Road in 2017. However, this project has been deferred due to current fiscal challenges being faced by the Treasury.

 

Sir, the Government plans to upgrade this road when funds become available. 

 

Mr Speaker, the Government plans to upgrade this road so the question at (c) does not arise.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Mr Kamboni (Kalomo Central): Mr Speaker, this road is very vital because of the mine in Mapatizya. It can create employment. Why is this road not considered a priority when it makes economic sense to rehabilitate it?

 

Mr Chitotela: Mr Speaker, we have considered this road as a priority. The only challenge we have is the financial difficulty. We have not abandoned this road. We have deferred this project until we have finances in the Treasury. When we have finances, we will do a feasibility study on this road to determine its viability.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Mr Livune (Katombola): Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister educate me on the viability of this road versus that of other roads which have been done? I think that because this road leads to a mine, it is important. Since independence, this road has been like this, but this Government is still talking about engaging somebody to do a feasibility study. Can the hon. Minister tell me and the people of Mapatiyza where this road is classified?

 

Mr Chitotela: Mr Speaker, the Government considers this road as one that can open the area for economic activities and that is why it has planned to do a feasibility study. It is just unfortunate that the Government did not have money this year to allocate to this project and even next year, no money will be allocated to it. We have not abandoned this project. I assure the people of Mapatizya that the Government is very concerned about this road and it will make sure that this road is upgraded to bituminous standard.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has clearly indicated that due to pressure on the Treasury, works on this road have been deferred. We have works being done on the L400 Road Project and the first phase of the Link 8,000 km Road Project. If the Government truly means what it says, is it not able to stop work on those roads that lead to nowhere, especially those on the Copperbelt in order to work on roads in other provinces so that the national cake can be shared in a more equitable way in the country?

 

Mr Chitotela: Mr Speaker, it is important to realise that every corner of this country deserves economic activities and good and sustainable development even in terms of the road network. We cannot classify the roads in Lusaka and those on the Copperbelt as roads leading nowhere.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Chitotela: As Government, we have classified these roads as very important economic roads. We are looking forward to raising enough money so that we can upgrade the road leading to Mapatizya Mine so that the people of Kalomo and Mapatizya can also benefit from their Government.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Speaker: Hon. Minister, the question partly was: Is it possible to divert some funds away from certain roads on the Copperbelt to the road in question?

 

Mr Chitotela: Mr Speaker, it is not possible because the people of the Copperbelt also deserve the same benefits as the people of Mapatizya. I was trying to be diplomatic by saying that the Copperbelt residents also deserve a quality road network. The people of Lusaka also deserve a quality road network as much as the people of Mapatizya.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

REHABILITATION AND CONSTRUCTION OF FEEDER ROADS IN NYIMBA

 

43. Ms O. Phiri (Nyimba) asked the Minister of Local Government:

 

1. when feeder roads which are in a deplorable state in Nyimba District would be rehabilitated; and

 

1. when additional feeder roads would be constructed.

 

The Minister of Water Development, Sanitation and Environmental Protection (Mr Kaziya) (on behalf of the Minister of Local Government (Mr Mwale): Mr Speaker, the feeder roads which are in a deplorable state in Nyimba District will be rehabilitated when the council plan for these roads and send the plan to the Ministry of Local Government for consideration in the 2018 Annual Work Plan.

 

Sir, additional feeder roads will be constructed when the district council will plan for them and when funds will be available.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Ms Chonya (Kafue): Mr Speaker, when we had an engagement with people from the road sector yesterday, they indicated that some moneys for road works, especially those under the L400 and feeder roads, would be sourced from the Ministry of Local Government. Could the hon. Minister confirm whether this money is actually there? This is because I did a quick perusal of the Yellow Book and I have not seen anything on road infrastructure maintenance. I would like the hon. Minister to confirm if this is case.

 

Mr Kaziya: Mr Speaker, I think that question is misdirected. Actually, it is the Minister of Housing and Infrastructure who is supposed to handle that question.

 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

Mr Livune (Katombola): Mr Speaker, there is a tendency by Roads Development Agency (RDA) of throwing this responsibility of feeder roads to the Ministry of Local Government. Can you, in no uncertain terms, tell us who should be doing these roads? Is it RDA or the Ministry of Local Government? We all know that RDA is responsible of township and trunk roads but there seem to be a problem between RDA and the Ministry of Local Government.

 

Mr Kaziya: Mr Speaker, I still maintain that road networks are a preserve of RDA and RDA does not fall under the Ministry of Local Government.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister not aware that under his portfolio he also has a responsibility to grade certain roads and look after certain roads in the townships and rural areas of this country? Hon. Minister, are you not aware of that?

 

Mr Kaziya: Mr Speaker, I am aware and thank you very much for that question.

 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, as we progress, let us bear in mind the question. This question is on feeder roads, location Nyimba.

 

Prof. Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Hon. Minister, can you clarify to this House how you are coordinating over feeder roads. On one part, the Ministry of Defence is supposed to be attending to feeder roads and on the other part, your ministry is also supposed to be attending to feeder roads. May you clarify to this House who is responsible for feeder roads so that we are clear on where this responsibility lies?

 

Mr Kaziya: Thank you, Mr Speaker, for that question. I wish to state that there are certain roads that we can delegate to RDA and the local authority. We have been given this charge to look at certain feeder roads under the Ministry of Local Government. We have delegated powers to appoint certain agencies to handle these feeder roads.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka): Mr Speaker, this is a spelling of confusion. Hon. Minister, when you say you have delegated authority to apportion works to agencies, does that include the Ministry of Defence?

 

Mr Kaziya: Mr Speaker, we are not in charge of certain delegated powers.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Kaziya: This responsibility is entrusted in the RDA.

 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

____________

 

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

 

[THE FIRST CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

 

The Chairperson: Hon. Members, I would like us to set some ground rules since we have a lot of work to do and the time is very short. Let us agree that we will get a total of four Members from the left to debate the policy debate and an additional two Members on the right, at the most. The hon. Minister moving the policy debate and one additional member. Therefore, I would like to suggest that some work is done on the people on the left so that we move quickly through the Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure.

 

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!

 

VOTE 12 – (Office of the Public Protector – Human Resource and Administration – K7,221,446)

 

(Consideration resumed)

 

The Vice-President (Mrs Wina): Thank you, Madam Chairperson, I have made notes of the issues that hon. Members raised on this office. As hon. Members may wish to know, the Office of the Public Protector is a new office in transition. Before, it was called Commission for Investigation, so as such, this office it is still finding its way. We were informed about the challenges it still finds, but we believe that this will be a very strong office because the amended Constitution has conferred more powers to this office of Government.

 

Madam Chairperson, I look forward to the hon. Members supporting the budget for this office.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Vote 12/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

Vote 12/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

Vote 12/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of clarification.

 

The First Chairperson: Point of order on whom?

 

Mr Mwiimbu: It is point of clarification, not a point of order.

 

Madam Chairperson, thank you for according me this opportunity to seek a point of clarification pertaining to the ground rules you have just announced.

 

Madam Chairperson, you may be aware that there are fourteen Independent Members of Parliament, one Forum for Democracy & Development (FDD) Member of Parliament and two Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) ...

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Three!

 

Mr Nkombo: The other MMD is Mutati!

 

Mr Kunda: Two!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: No, the other MMD is the Minister of Finance.

 

Laughter

 

The First Chairperson: Hon. Leader of Opposition, take a seat.

 

Mr Mwiimbu resumed his seat.

 

The First Chairperson: It is up to the Chair to allow a hon. Member to debate. All I was trying to say in my guidance was that because we do not have time, we need to go through these Estimates very quickly. I mentioned that from your side, as the left, a total of four Members would be allowed to debate and on my right hand side a total of two hon. Members would be allowed to debate. Those four hon. Members can be divided between the United Party for National Development (UPND) and the other side. Some people may not even want to debate. Let us reduce these interjections so that we can move quickly.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

VOTE 17/01 (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Headquarters – K767,818,851).

 

The Minister of Foreign Affairs (Mr Kalaba): Madam Chairperson, the establishment and enhancement of warm and cordial foreign relations for any country is key for the promotion of economic cooperation, sustainable development and the overall pursuit of other national interests. In addition, peace and security are a prerequisite for attracting foreign investment, promoting international trade and regional integration, amongst others, which are key ingredients in stimulating economic growth. It is further recognised that Zambia’s foreign policy emphases on economic diplomacy, which aims at enhancing economic cooperation by, among others, facilitating trade and attracting foreign investment.

 

Madam Chairperson, it is worth noting that the paradigm shift from the emphasis on political diplomacy to economic diplomacy and most importantly the promotion of the agricultural sector as the key driver for national development will require the country to maximise of the benefits from its interaction with the international community. For this reason, there is need for a reorientation in the way the various sectors of the economy collaborate with the foreign ministry in order to effectively utilise Zambia’s missions abroad as conduits of investment and development cooperation. It is in this context that I appreciate this honour and rare privilege to deliver the Ministry of Foreign Affairs 2017 Budget statement to this august House.

 

Madam Chairperson, the House may recall that on 30^th September, 2016, His Excellency Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, the President of the Republic of Zambia, in his speech when opening the First Session of the Twelfth National Assembly, stated that his Government would continue to place emphasis on economic diplomacy in its international relations. In this regard, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs has prioritised and realigned its activities in line with the pronouncement by the Head of State. His Excellency the President emphasised that the focus of the Patriotic Front (PF) Government in the next five years would be achieve a resilient and diversified economy. In accordance with the Seventh National Development Plan, this will entail reducing the country’s heavy dependence on copper and diversifying the economy to be driven by agriculture, livestock and fisheries development and their entire value chain.

 

Madam Chairperson, His Excellency the President also pronounced that his administration would place high priority on industrialising the economy as a means of creating more sustainable jobs and subsequently creating wealth. This pronouncement is in line with the Southern African Development Agenda (SADC) Integration Agenda which places industrialisation as the main driving force towards a more prosperous integrated region. Therefore, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs will ensure continued active participation in SADC, the African Union (AU) and other regional institutions in order to take full advantage of the numerous funding opportunities for large infrastructure projects that exists under these arrangements.

 

Madam Chairperson, the SADC Industrialisation Agenda and the AU Agenda 2063 envisage a continent which is highly integrated and produces finished goods for trade within and outside the continent. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs has been part of this process and will continue to play a leading role in ensuring Zambia’s effective contribution towards the continent realising the Africa we want.

 

Madam Chairperson, at a global level, it is imperative that we take stock of the progress that we have made as a country. Our journey as individual states might be singular, but our destiny is shared with the rest of the global village in which we live. It is, therefore, becoming increasingly necessary to work together as a global community because the modern day challenges are becoming more and more complex and cannot be tackled in isolation as individual states.

 

Madam Chairperson, as the world celebrates seventy-one years of the existence of the United Nations (UN), the Ministry of Foreign Affairs has prioritised engagement in the multi-lateral system by effectively participating in the processes and programmes of the UN and its specialised agencies so as contribute towards to shaping the agenda of this important global institution for the benefit of our people.

 

Madam Chairperson, as the House may be aware, 2016 marks the beginning of the implementation of the new global development objectives, the Sustainable Development Goals (SGDs) known as Agenda 2030, which are the successor global development targets to the millennium development goals. The gist of His Excellency the President’s speech when he opened Parliament reflects Zambia’s commitment to the attainment of the SDGs and their targets.

 

Madam Chairperson, the SDGs spearheaded by the UN, emphasise on the need for the global all inclusive development leaving no one behind in the prosperity and process. It is for this reason that the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in its ministerial budget has included activities that will contribute and help to accelerate the development process of our country.

 

Madam Chairperson, one key activity the Ministry of Foreign Affairs coordinates with the aim of facilitating bilateral cooperation with African countries is activities of the joint permanent commission of cooperation.

 

This is a bilateral framework under which various issues are discussed, which provide for an enabling environment for the people of Zambia and the other countries to do business within and outside the country. For this reason, the ministry will need to host a number of joint permanent commissions with strategic partners that have been long overdue as part of implementing economic diplomacy in line with the foreign policy.

 

Madam, further, my ministry has prioritised the participation of the country in a number of strategic economic partnerships which have in recent years, become a significant source of technical and financial assistance in the implementation of our national programmes and projects. Such partnerships include the Forum for Chinese and African Corporation (FOCAC), the Arab Africa Forum (AAF), the European Union Africa Forum (EUAF) and the India Africa Forum (IAF), to name but a few.

 

Madam Chairperson, the House will agree with me that Africa continues to witness serious conflicts in a number of countries, despite the numerous efforts and initiatives at the national, regional and continental levels. The destabilising effects of the absence of peace and security on the continent have resulted into devastating humanitarian and social catastrophe which has of course, had a negative impact on economic integration. There is therefore, need for greater concerted efforts among the African countries and necessary action taken in order to adequately address these challenges, if the continent is to achieve social and economic advancement. In this regard and in line with our foreign policy objectives related to the promotion of regional and global peace, Zambia as a member of the African Union (AU) Peace and Security Council from 2016 to 2019 will ably utilise her membership to support and initiate initiatives that will ensure that peace and security is promoted in Africa, particularly within the Great Lakes Region.

 

Madam Chairperson, Zambia continues to stand out on the continent as an oasis is peace. It is for this reason that Zambia and the Head of State in particular, is regularly consulted on issues related to the resolution of conflicts in affected areas within the region and across the breadth of the continent. Since my ministry will spare no effort to ensure that Zambia continues to play her renowned proactive role in contributing to lasting peace and security in the region and the continent, it will be important to ensure that necessary resources are made available. Zambia will have to actively participate and support efforts aimed at conflict prevention, management and resolution, peace building and post-conflict reconstruction in regional and international organisations such as the Southern African Development Community (SADC), the International Conference of the Great Lakes Region (ICGLR) and the African Union (AU). It is after all, a known fact that only in a peaceful and safe environment can an economy prosper.

 

Madam Chairperson, you may wish to note that the vision of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs is to be an excellent institution in cultivating and maintaining international relations in pursuit of the country’s national interests. In line with its vision, my ministry effectively promotes and protects Zambia’s interest and maintains good international relations in order to contribute to national development. In an effort to effectively carry out its important task, it has become imperative that the ministry is reoriented and undergoes a paradigm shift through implementing a career foreign service that will entail placement of a professional cadre of staff, both at headquarters and in all our missions abroad.

 

Madam Chairperson, it is for this reason that the Patriotic Front (PF) Government, under the able leadership of His Excellency the President, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, in April, 2016, approved a Cabinet Memorandum to present the Foreign Service Bill, which I will be presenting before this august House in a few weeks time. I therefore, wish to request the usual and most appreciated support of the members in passing this important and historical document into law. The benefits of having an efficient and effective career foreign service are immense. The bill, once enacted, will result in the establishment of a service which will enhance professionalism and thus, improve efficiency in achieving the country’s national objectives as well as promoting Zambia’s interests abroad. In this era of globalisation, a professionalised foreign service will further lead to enhanced co-operation at both bilateral and multilateral levels for the benefit of the people of Zambia.

 

Madam Chairperson, you may wish to note that the ministry concluded its strategic planning process for the period 2016 to 2020. In this regard, in 2017, the ministry will embark on re-organising the headquarters and missions abroad in order to enhance organisational performance. This will entail among others, reviewing of organisation structures, reviewing and developing job profiles for officers at headquarters and missions, strengthening human resource management and development systems and institutionalising of all performance management systems.

 

Mr Chairperson, the ministry will strengthen its support to its missions abroad by identifying strategic focus areas of intervention in each country or region, where Zambia has its presence and sets targets against which the efforts of our missions will be measured. In addition, as we professionalise our service, we shall intensify the performance audits of our missions in order to ensure their efficient and effective performance as we work towards achieving increased benefits that Zambia should derive from its international relations.

 

Madam Chairperson, the diplomatic call accredited to the Republic of Zambia contributes towards building Zambia’s relations with the international community by facilitating enhanced bilateral, regional and multilateral co-operation. In an effort to further foster and maintain good and friendly relations, the ministry will update the national protocol guidelines, which will create an enabling environment for foreign diplomatic missions to operate in. Further, the guidelines will provide diplomatic etiquette standards which will effectively promote our national interests while upholding and maintaining relations with other countries.

 

Mr Chairperson, I wish to report that Zambia was declared a mine free zone. This declaration was as a result of a survey through our Zambia Mine Action Centre (ZMAC) with the assistance of the Norwegian People State. Unfortunately, as a result of this declaration, the support from co-operating partners has since drastically reduced, leaving the Government to entirely finance the operations of ZMAC. Furthermore, Zambia is still faced with a problem of residual contamination and the ministry continues to receive reports of the existence of the Explosive Remnants of Wars (ERWs). In this regard, the Zambia/Namibia common border is a case in point which covers a stretch of approximately 110 km from Wenela to Singalamwe. Our people in this area are forced to pass through Namibia in order to come back into Zambia because the stretch is contaminated and requires de-mining. For this reason, most activities in 2017 will focus on de-mining the stretch in this border region so as to free the area from the ERWs. 

 

Madam Chairperson, as I conclude, let me take this opportunity to express my appreciation and gratitude to this august House for the   invaluable support it continues to render to my ministry as we carry out the mammoth task of executing Zambia’s foreign policy. Whilst I humbly call for the serious and advisory scrutiny of the ministry’s expenditure budget, I wish to thank the members in advance for their interest in supporting the ministry’s proposed Budget. I urge the hon. Members of this august House to support my ministry’s budget of K767,818,851.

 

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Madam Chairperson, I thank the hon. Minister for his clear statement. From the outset, it is important for me to inform the hon. Minister that we support his ministry’s vote but the support will not go without any comments. I hope that the comments will be taken seriously, beginning by trying to get what he will say as he winds up the debate, to see why in absolute terms, their figures have gone up in the midst of an economic crisis such as what we are having in Zambia. The figure is about a hundred million more than it was last year.

 

Madam Chairperson, the hon. Minister, together with the diplomats that represent us abroad, is the mirror image of the Zambian society. Therefore, it is important for us to support him, especially when he says that he is embarking on bringing the Foreign Policy Bill to the House.

 

As he winds up debate, I would like him to address the issue of what happened to the career diplomat training that was introduced in the Third Republic. It is true that before then, we had what we have now where political vuvuzelas or political cadres are the ones who enjoy the fortune ...

 

The First Chairperson: Order!

 

For the benefit of other hon. Members, what is a political vuvuzela?

 

Mr Nkombo: It is a political trumpet. It refers to those who make the most noise on behalf of political parties. It has been tradition that they are posted into Foreign Service.

 

Madam Chairperson, I have had the opportunity to travel to many countries as hon. Member of Parliament. From the time of the Movement for Multiparty Democracy (MMD) up until now, what I have seen is sad. Most members of staff at the missions are just people who made the loudest noise during campaigns, save for the heads of the missions. Off course, people have to be rewarded for the work that they do. However, I think that we should now move away from this considering the fact that foreign office bearers are a reflection of who we truly are. Of course, it goes without saying that they must carry the vision and the policies of the party in the Government. However, let them pass through some classroom of some sort to teach them etiquette and basic manners of dealing with people away from home so that they can continue to give a correct reflection of who we are.

 

Madam Chairperson, in the midst of austerity, I imagined that the hon. Minister would say that they were contemplating shutting down certain missions in order for us to save some money. As you know, probably more than 50 per cent will go to personal emoluments for those individuals who are serving the country.

Madam Chairperson, some countries cluster the missions, where they think that there is not sufficient trade or economic affairs. For instance, they will put a mission in Harare to serve South Africa and other neighbouring countries. Of course, South Africa is a big economy and we benefit a lot from it. However, I think that you can shrink your staff in order to save money because this economy is on its knees.

 

Madam Chairperson, I now want to emphasise something to the hon. Minister who is the second topmost diplomat from the President who is the top diplomat. It is important that he starts to train himself to cover the President in foreign travel, especially. What we are seeing now in the midst of a real difficult time is a lot of travel by the Head of State’s delegation all over the shore, which is contrary to the original dream of the Patriotic Front Government, and this I state with a lot of authority.

 

Madam Chairperson and the hon. Minister know as well as I do, that immediately post 2011, the President then, Mr Michael Chilufya Sata, may his soul rest in peace, did not travel as much as the current President is doing.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Nkombo: There is no dispute to that.

 

Mr Mung’andu: Question!

 

Mr Nkombo: You were not there that time.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Nkombo: Madam Chairperson, there is no dispute to the fact that the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs can cover some of these travels that the President is undertaking, obviously, with exception to some very important ones. However, we cannot have a situation where the President is gone on a bi-weekly basis. What I am trying to say is that it is not just about the President going out, but what comes with his going out, a huge entourage. He goes with a huge entourage in the face of the challenges that we have.

 

Madam Chairperson, let me give a clear example of President Magufuli who I know was invited to the inauguration of our President, but indicated that they did not have sufficient money to attend the event. The hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs can state whether what I am saying is true or not. This is how a President who is in the depth of economic crisis should behave. This is what I think.

 

Madam, the hon. Minister also superintends over organisations that we are affiliated to such as the African Union (AU), the Southern African Development Community (SADC) and the Common Market for Southern and Eastern Africa (COMESA) to name but a few in the region. As the hon. Minister meets with his counterparts in foreign affairs, they should try to bring back to life the SADC Tribunal. This tribunal was established for one specific purpose. As you know, the Government is formed by three arms which are the Executive, the Legislature and the Judiciary. The SADC Tribunal was basically supposed to be there to receive governance records from member States, as part of its duties and not its entire responsibility. However, we have seen that the SADC Tribunal was systematically killed ....

 

The First Chairperson: Order!

 

Hon. Member, ‘killed’ is unparliamentary.

 

Mr Nkombo: It was decimated. I withdraw the word ‘killed.’ It became decapitated - I think this is the word that I am looking for. It became decapitated because of greedy leaders. I will not name any because it will not benefit me, but we all know who the greedy and aristocratic dictators are on the continent. Unfortunately, we only name leaders as dictators or autocrats after they are gone. I think that the SADC Tribunal was a good institution to ensure that the Executive Wings of various Governments were in check and so that it could monitor human rights abuses which are very rampant in this region, including Zambia.

 

Madam Chairperson, as I conclude my short speech in support of the hon. Minister’s Budget line, I would like to say that we should try by all means not to bury our heads in the sand like Ostriches by coming here and going elsewhere to tell the club members that you meet at SADC and AU that Zambia is an oasis of peace. It once was and, as long as you are going to continue ignoring the fact that we are living in a torn society, ...

 

Mr Chibanda: Is there war?

 

Mr Mung’andu: It is.

 

Mr Nkombo: ... torn by elections and nothing else, it will not benefit you. For instance when the hon. Minister came back from Maputo, he gave a ministerial statement in which he indicated that Zambia has continued to be an oasis of peace. In the midst of all that, his boss, the President, is instituting a Commission of Inquiry on violence. These two situations contradict. They are at loggerheads.

 

Madam Chairperson, all I am trying to say to the hon. Minister is that he should tell the story as it truly is when he goes out of the country. He cannot continue to pretend that all is okay, though it may be between him and I. He knows as much as I do, that our people out there are discontented as a result of our collective behaviour as leaders and more so those who are in the driving seat who hold the instruments of power and control the police and the army. They must do a rain check. As the hon. Minister tells his fellow Foreign Ministers that Zambia is an oasis of peace, he must undertake some introspection because some of them are our friends and they will call privately to ask. 

 

 

I am not trying to put you, hon. Minister, at war with your Foreign Minister friends but they will say that what we read is totally different from what you said. I think there is dignity in telling things as they truly are.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Nkombo: How we do self introspection hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs it is first of all, being true to ourselves. It starts with you hon. Minister, be true to yourself. Fortunately you hon. Minister, has not been a pretender.

 

The First Chairperson: I think let us not discuss the hon. Minister.

 

Mr Nkombo: The hon. Minister has been very straightforward in his dealings and he suits in that job. There is no doubt about it. All I am saying is that let us do some introspection amongst ourselves. We should know that human beings come and go but institutions remain. All of us seated in here are going to leave this country at some point. Our prayer is that we should leave this country a better place than we found it.

 

Madam Chairperson, I am on record as having said before that for as long as we maintain certain attitudes, we may find ourselves outside of this august House prematurely. By being true we stand a better chance of surviving this crack that we have created for ourselves, we need to mend it and then forge ahead. As long as you, hon. Minister, and your team are presiding over a broken society and pretending that the society is stitched together and it is okay, then we will not achieve anything. Everything that you will try to do will be done for purposes of maybe personal aggrandisement so that people say, there goes the Patriotic Front (PF) Government. I think we need to be true to ourselves that is when you can go out there and inform the world who you truly are. We live is a small global village that you say one thing but what you see on Cable News Network (CNN), Aljazeera, Muvi TV, and hear on Komboni Radio, Itezhi tezhi Radio is about the violence that goes on in this country and the intolerance. I think we cannot build any society like that, unfortunately, we shall be failures together. So, we are just trying to jack up the Government but you the PF are sitting in the driver’s seat. The PF must take the first step to make sure that we do not only harmonise in pretence but we harmonise in the truest sense so that we can move this country forward to achieve the long lost motto which you, as PF Government, are trying to rub in, of One Zambia One Nation. It is not there yet. We need to bring unity at the centre of this august Assembly where the people’s representatives gather. This is where we should start demonstrating the unity. To simply say One Zambia One Nation on Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC), the PF media wing, that will not help us.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mung’andu: Question!

 

Mr Nkombo: Let us walk the talk. Let us be true to ourselves.

 

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Nkombo: Madam Chairperson, I have over shot my time, I meant to speak for a very short time but let me thank you for the opportunity to allow me debate this Motion.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

The First Chairperson: In fact, I was very ready to commend you when you indicated that you were terminating your debate at ten minutes. So, I obviously cannot commend you now.

 

Hon. Members, you do not have to exhaust twenty minutes. We can still …

 

Hon. Members: Fifteen minutes!

 

The First Chairperson: Fifteen minutes. We can still deliver the point in less than fifteen minutes.

 

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kufakwandi (Sesheke): Madam Chairperson, thank you for the opportunity to add a few words of support to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs budget. I do agree with the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs that the focus now should be on economic, trade and development issues as opposed to political matters. I should also start by saying that at no time in the history of Africa or Zambia that we need in our missions abroad people who are well vest in matters of finance, commerce, trade and economics because what we see now is a drop in foreign aid. Today, there is more competition for aid than has been the case before. So, our diplomats, the people we send out there, must be well grounded in these matters of trade, economics and development for them to be able to convince Governments and private investors to bring money to our country.

 

Madam Chairperson, it is therefore, very important like the hon. Minister talked about the issue of a career diplomats. We should go back to what it used to be. Some of us had the privilege of working outside Zambia in West, East and Southern Africa. What was very striking is that in a number of our embassies, when meetings of donors were held, the contribution from Zambia was very low because most of our representatives there were not well vest with matters related to development, aid and finance. We have no choice but to put in the best that we have in the Foreign Service. In any case, like Hon. Nkombo has already said, the missions abroad represent the country. They are the face of the country out there and we have to send some of our best men and women to man these missions.

 

Madam Chairperson, I also think that, as hon. Nkombo had mentioned, in times of austerity, in most of the countries, one area they go to is review their diplomatic missions whether they are really going to make any meaningful contribution to what the country wants to achieve during these very difficult times. I think it is a very important area to look at and review or revisit some of these missions abroad. I was looking at, for example, East Africa, do we need to have diplomats in Kenya, Tanzania and Uganda or one mission can actually cover those countries. These are the questions; I do not have answers to. I am simply highlighting some of the areas that we should look at. I think what is important today is to have strategic representation in countries which are so important for our own economic development, countries which have also got influence among their neighbours. We should try to look at reducing the number of missions abroad. We cannot continue, in fact, we have seen here in Zambia that a number of countries are pulling out some of their aid programmes. The reason is the same, everybody is trying to cut on expenditure to reflect the current challenges that many countries are facing.

 

Madam Chairperson, I think that we cannot continue to ignore is the fact that Zambian missions abroad should also have the One Zambia One Nation face. I mentioned this in my Maiden Speech that the One Zambia One Nation motto as important as it is must be reflected when you go to these missions abroad. You must be able to see Zambia out there. You must not only see one or two regions, it must be Zambia being reflected and that it is represented as a country in these missions abroad.

 

Madam Chairperson, I also liked the point made by the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs, on the issue of collaboration between various ministries and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. One of the important roles of missions abroad is to ensure that we do not send big delegations accompanying the President or hon. Ministers because missions are supposed to have experts in various fields.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kufakwandi:Madam Chairperson, I recall that we were informed that the presidential delegation had been cut from eighty-one to twenty-four. Now, twenty-four is still a big number especially if they go to a country where there are a lot of diplomats, for instance, New York or Addis Ababa. The delegations are big for the simple reason that perhaps we do not have qualified people in foreign countriesso we have to carry people from here.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

                                                               

Mr Kufakwandi: So, we have to send people who are qualified so that we cut down on the size of delegations going abroad. That is why there are diplomats in foreign countries and they are supposed to be experts in their fields.

 

Madam Chairperson, I think Zambia seems to be losing out when it comes to the postings in organisations such as the African Union (AU), Southern African Development Community (SADC) and so forth. In some countries I have visited, in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs there is a desk which deals with the issue of jobs for the nationals of that country in international organisations. We have to work towards that because when we have a lot of people in these international organisations, they are unofficially our representatives. They are able to wave through and represent Zambia all the time. That is what they do. So, it is extremely important for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs to have a desk in other countries and Zambia can send personnel there who can monitor what goes on globally in these organisationsandwho can all the time brief us and also fight for the country whenever the opportunity arises.

 

Madam Chairperson, I think that most of the issues were well covered by my colleague Hon. Nkombo. However, all in all, I think that the orientation that the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs has statedin the policy statement is most welcome. We should now focus on trade, economics, commerce and more on trying to fight for additional resources to come to Zambia. As I said at the beginning, the in-flows are going down and we need real experts in these missions who will be able to bring money to our country.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Chonya (Kafue): Madam Chairperson, thank you very much. I want to adopt the debates of my two colleagues as my own because they have spoken very well on most issues. I will emphasise onone or two things in acknowledging the statement made by the hon. Minister. Of course I also welcome the focus on economic diplomacy as a departure from political diplomacy because I think that the initial understanding is what led us to send political cadres to foreign missions as opposed to the experts who are supposed to do the job for us.

 

Madam, indeed our interactions at the international level give us an opportunity to learn international best practices that we should reproduce and that can benefit our country. In the past when there were opportunities even for training, we saw cadres pursing courses in broadcasting at the expense of staff, for instance, from the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC) or any Government institutions. So, I hope that as we talk about deriving money for value, we will really focus on what will benefit the country as we interact at the international level.

 

Madam Chairperson, at thesefora, we sign and accede to protocols and other processes. However, when it comes to implementing them back home, the record has not been very pleasing. I am sure when we start talking about gender, for instance, we will look at why the women have not been well represented and yet we are party to some international protocols which we signed as a country. There was the issue of our membership and indeed we should be proud to be a member of the United Nations (UN) Peace and Security Council. However, I like what my colleague said that sometimes it is about how we define peace because there are moments when I sometimes wonder whether we are enjoying our peace as we originally did.

 

However, the point I would like to make is that we should not take this so-called peace for granted. This is because peace is a very expensive commodity and we should guard it jealousy. That is why I said that we need international best practices and we should not be seen to have some relations where we begin to learn alien things such as the conduct of our last elections. When the elections were pronounced free and fair indeed we had something to smile about. However, we are now experiencing what we would only see happen in foreign countries and this is why I am want to caution that we should not take our peace for granted. Let us continue sticking to what we know best as a country.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Chonya:Madam Chairperson, those are just a few comments that I wanted to add as well as emphasise on the aspect of austerity measures in terms of the need to reduce on the number of people who go on foreign trips. In one newspaper, I saw a big delegationwho had gone to the just endedMarrakech Conferenceand I wondered how we could afford that as a country.

 

Mr Ngulube: Question!                       

 

Ms Chonya: Madam Chairperson, finally, these foreign missions have also been another source of very serious audit queries. Therefore, we should also focus on that as we focus on the aspect of professionalism. I am sure that the accounting aspect is also one area that the hon. Minister of Finance should deal with if we would like to see queries reduced at that level. We can later on deal with rumours aboutconduits of monies leaving the country through deals.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

The First Chairperson: That is commendable.

 

Ms Kusune (Keembe): Madam Chairperson, thank you for allowing me to add my voice to the policy statement for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. In supporting the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs, I would like to make a few observations.

 

Madam, having been one of those people who have lived in the diaspora for some time and coming back here as a law maker, I would like to say that one of the things that we are so grateful aboutis the aspect of professionalism in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. One of the challenges that I have noticed here in Zambia is that we regard those people who are in other countries as not being part of Zambia. So as we argue for professionalism in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, we would love to see more Zambians in the diaspora being engaged in the affairs of Zambia because it is very critical. These are people who have gained expertise and are being exposed so they should come back or at least contribute to the welfare and development of this country.

Therefore, in adding to what is already in the pipeline, within the ministry, could the Government be thinking of think-tanks, for example, who will be strategising and bringing in the intellectual property that is needed in this country for Zambians who are here and those outside. That way, we will continue creating the synergies as we develop as a country. That is why dual citizenship is so critical for us as a country. When you look at countries which have dual citizenship, you will notice that they are more developed. Why is that so? It is because when somebody has allegiance to both countries, they have no choice but to continue holding on to those ties. They are also likely to invest in those countries. Although they may assimilate in one of the two countries after some years, they always have a certain bond with their country. I would, therefore, like to suggest that we should not just be deliberate in terms of putting up policies, but we should ensure that these policies are actualised or implemented so that we can continue seeing the Zambian flag flying high.

 

Madam Chairperson, another area that I wanted to touch on is the issue of mortgage financing for our ministries. I know that there a few high commission buildings or embassies that are owned by the Zambian Government. However, most of them are rented, and this is not only where business is handled, but in terms of the housing that accommodates the members of staff too. Therefore, if we are to advocate for mortgage financing, I believe it would save the Zambian Government a lot of resources. As someone already said, I think that anyone who owns land, owns the people. We cannot claim to be surviving in foreign lands if we have no share of the cake there.

 

Madam Chairperson, I am made to understand that after independence, the Mozambiquan Government had given a seven-storey building to Zambia and Tanzania. I do know what the dynamics behind the scene are, but the Zambian Government was in the process of repossessing that. So, could we make sure that such gestures and gifts are maintained so that it unloads the financial burden on the Zambian Government. Those resources can then be channelled elsewhere. I know that we are going to come to the Budget and one of the lines that I saw is that although there have been some funds allocated for training of staff in the foreign service, there is no allocation for HIV/AIDS workplace programmes in the 2017 Budget, and I wonder why that is so.  If we are putting HIV/AIDS on our agenda and continue to strive to ensure that we attain the Sustainable Development Goals (SDGs) as a country, that is something we need to look at and be in line with what we speak of.

 

Madam Chairperson, as Zambians, we have an opportunity to have conversations between Zambians who live here and those who live abroad. Although we would have wanted the Zambians who live abroad to be here, many of us know that they are helping our families here in Zambia. So, could we encourage them not only to send money, but come up with exchange programmes where they can come and share their experiences and expertise in universities and colleges, go back and create those sister to sister relationships in terms of their former schools so that Zambians in rural areas like Keembe Constituency can see that they can be Zambian and still go above and beyond in different areas of expertise and fields. This will highlight not only the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, but Zambia as well.

 

Madam Chairperson, that is my humble contribution. I am here to support this Vote, but I want to see what the Government has stated actually implemented for the sake of generations to come.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Mung’andu (Chama South): Madam Chairperson, I thank you for giving me an opportunity to add my voice to the policy statement issued by the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs.

 

As the hon. Minister indicated, it is important for our country to interact with the rest of the global village. This is because our foreign policy is linked to economic diplomacy. When His Excellency opened this session of Parliament, he talked about economic diversification. We can only attain this economic diversification in both agriculture and industrialisation if we find the market for the goods and services produced by our country. These goods and services will need a market both locally and internationally.

 

Madam Chairperson, it is against this background that I would like to bring to the attention of your Committee the issue of Presidential trips. Presidents the world over, do not just stay in their countries. In our case, the President does not stay in State House. He travels, ...

 

Mr Sing’ombe: Question!

 

Mr Mung’andu: ... not for holiday, but goes to the international community to build relations between our country and others. Secondly, the President ought not travel with plumbers. I am not demeaning the plumbing or cattle herding professions. What I am saying is that when he travels, the President needs to travel with professionals. Let me give an example of His Excellency’s recent trip to Tanzania. In case our colleagues are not aware of that particular trip, the President had high level meetings regarding Tanzania-Zambia Railway Authority (TAZAMA) and Tanzania-Zambia Mafuta oil Pipeline (TAZARA). He did not need to go there alone. The President is a lawyer by profession, and so when he goes on such trips, he needs to go with people who are knowledgeable about the energy, pipeline and transportation sectors. Those are the people being referred to as a huge entourage. This House has to understand that for the country to move forward, the President needs to continue interacting with the international community.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mung’ andu: Madam Chairperson, we recently had the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association (CPA) elections and almost everyone wanted to be a member of the association. When we had a workshop here, some people expressed concern about some trips. So, it is only through international interactions that we can learn about some of the best practices that the hon. Member of Parliament for Kafue Constituency talked about. We will not know about the best practices through the internet. Our people need to be exposed.

 

Madam Chairperson, I would also like to talk about cadres. Someone mentioned the use of, ...

 

The First Chairperson: Order!

 

Hon. Member for Chama South, try to deliver points so that the hon. Minister can respond to them as he responds to the others. Remember that the hon. Minister will respond to the issues being raised. You may continue.

 

Mr Mung’andu: I thank you for your guidance, Madam Chairperson.

 

Madam Chairperson, with regards to the people that man these foreign missions, the diplomats, there is concern, especially by our colleagues on the left, …

 

Mr Livune: Ah, ah, wayamba futi?

 

Mr Mung’andu: …that the country ought to send professionals.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Mung’andu: I totally agree with them.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Mung’andu: I agree with them.

 

If as a country we are to get value from foreign missions, we need people who are able to interact in all sectors of the economy. For instance, for us to promote agriculture and industrialisation, we need to identify countries which are good at agro-processing and have people in those missions that will be able to tap the knowledge and possibly link it to our local technocrats.

 

Madam Chairperson, Cadreism starts with all of us in here.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah, iwe!

Interruptions

 

Mr Mung’andu: A number of us …

 

Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Mung’andu: …were elected …

 

Interruptions

 

The First Chairperson: Order, on my left!

 

Mr Mung’andu: …through political parties. This means that we were cadres or party members of those parties.

 

Mr Kafwaya: We still are!

 

Mr Mung’andu: We have skilled and qualified members in political parties. For example, what is wrong with sending the hon. Member of Parliament for Bwana Mkubwa, who is a medical doctor, as high commissioner or diplomat in a foreign mission? There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. What is wrong is sending a person with no knowledge, whatsoever, …

Interruptions

 

Mr Mwiimbu: You have had General Kanene!

 

Mr Mung’andu: … to go and represent the country in these foreign missions. I do not think that this country has ever sent anyone who did not have knowledge.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

 

Mr Mung’andu: Personally, I do not have those facts. I believe that all the diplomats representing our country out there are capable and knowledgeable people. It is no wonder our country is on the world map right now.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mung’andu: It is because of the good deeds …

Mr Livune: Question!

 

Mr Mung’andu: …of men and women representing this country in these missions.

 

In my conclusion, I want to talk about the recent past general elections. Madam, the first people to declare our elections free and fair were from the European Union (EU).

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

 

Mr Mung’andu: Unless those who think differently from what I have said were not watching television or had abandoned the Mulungushi International Conference Centre (MICC), but if you were there, you know that the first people to declare our election free and fair were from the EU and America. They were the first people to say that our elections were free and fair. It was not Al-Jezeera.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mung’andu: They even appealed to the losing candidates to concede.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mung’andu: For us, as a country, that was international diplomacy at its best.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mung’andu: As Zambians, we simply showed the world that we are capable ...

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mung’andu: …and we will remain capable.

 

Madam Chairperson, with these few remarks, I would like to support the policy statement by the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kalaba: Madam Chairperson, I say thank you very much to the entire august House for the overwhelming support that they have rendered to my ministry’s estimates in the 2017 Budget.

 

However, I would like to react to some of the sentiments that were raised by hon. Members in their debates and …

 

Ms Mwashingwele: But he has already reacted!

 

Laughter

 

Mr Kalaba: Yes, he has helped me to a great extent.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Kalaba: Madam Chairperson, Hon. Nkombo raised issues concerning my ministry’s estimates being over K100 million in the face of austerity measures that we have introduced. I want to say that the K100 million is as result of variations in the exchange rates and not that we are overspending or bringing in new programmes. In fact, if you compare the 2017 Budget estimates for my ministry to that of 2016, you will see huge reductions.

 

Further, he, together with most of the hon. Members that debated, lamented on the lack of a career Foreign Service. My ministry is working on this to ensure that we have people who will represent the country with dignity and honour and, effectively so. President Lungu has already started ensuring that people that are sent into foreign missions represent Zambia adequately. About thirty non-professional accountants have been recalled because the President wants people that are qualified in various positions in the Foreign Service.

 

My permanent secretary is appearing before the Public Accountants Committee (PAC) for audit queries in only five missions. This is out of thirty-nine missions, if I am not mistaken. This is a huge stride that the ministry is making to ensure that public finances are properly accounted for and that they are spent according to the plans of this august House.

 

Madam Chairperson, to say that most officers sent into foreign missions are not qualified is far from the truth. In case my colleagues want to know, trade attachés in missions come from the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry. If we want a person to deal with finances, it is the Ministry of Finance, under the Office of the Accountant-General that provides this person. Tourism attachés are brought in from the Ministry of Tourism and Arts.

 

Madam Chairperson, the Foreign Service Bill that will be brought to this august House will place emphasis on qualifications so that for the first time in the history of the Foreign Service, jobs are advertised in newspapers. We will be asking qualified Zambians out there to apply for those positions. We will try and fish from the market and as we fish from the market, we will obviously get the best out of it. Therefore, your interest that you have talked so passionately about will be protected through this procedure which we will bring. My appeal is that as the Bill comes before this House, you earnestly support it.

 

Madam Chairperson, an issue was raised about presidential travels. Hon. Nkombo mentioned that one leader from Tanzania could not attend President Lungu’s Inauguration because he did not have money. That is not true. President Magufuli could not attend the inauguration ceremony because there was an earthquake in his country at the time. He could not travel for this particular reason and he wrote a letter tendering his apologies. For the information of this House, President Magufuli is travelling to Zambia in the next three weeks.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kalaba: Just to show you that presidents do travel.

 

Mr Kalaba: Madam Chairperson, the problem that we have in this country is that we do not appreciate efforts that are being made current leaders.

 

Madam, when the late President, Mr Michael Chilufya Sata was not traveling, May His soul Rest in Peace, there was hullabaloo in this country. I used to answer questions mostly from my brothers from the other side of the divide who used to tell us why he was not travelling to this and that summit. How was Zambia going to benefit? So, it is important that we remain true to what we are advocating for. When His Excellency President Lungu now goes to represent our interests, we are now telling ourselves that the President is travelling a lot. I want to assure the House that in the next two to three years, His Excellency the President has to open a lot of trade corridors. We have to send our President in the Middle East to go and visit the Gulf States. We need resources and our health sector to begin responding to our needs of the tongue. We also need our education sector to begin responding the needs of the tongue.

 

Madam Chairperson, these investors do not just come. The world has got over 190 countries, therefore, it simply means that we are all competing for the same resources. So, if we want to be sending only our ambassadors when our friends are sending their Presidents, do we honestly expect to compete evenly?

 

Hon. Government Members: No!

 

Mr Kalaba: Is that the kind of leadership our colleagues in the Opposition would have brought to this country had they had been given the opportunity to lead?

 

Hon. Government Members: Ask them!

 

Mr Kalaba: The answer is no! I am sure had they have been in our shoes or on the other side of the divide, I am sure they would have done exactly the same as we are doing.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam Second Chairperson: Order!

 

Mr Kalaba: So, let us give credit where is due.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear. Hear!

 

Mr Kalaba: The man has done well.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Question!

 

Mr Kalaba: He has performed well and because of his attendance at the last UN Framework

Convention on Climate Change (UNFCCC), …

…

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Kalaba: … we are speaking figures here. I am saying that because of his attendance at the last UNFCCC meeting in South Africa, we are now going to have a spill over city in Kafue …

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kalaba: … and millions of dollars are coming in the country.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kalaba: Madam, because of His Excellency the President’s attendance at the same meeting, the Tanzania Zambia Railways (TAZARA) is now receiving huge sums of money which is coming through. It is because of His Excellency the President’s attending the UNFCCC Meeting, we are now going to have the Zambia Railways revitalised because monies will come in. So, our colleagues are going to be fishing from the air without asking for facts, we will be misleading ourselves. As hon. Members, it is important that as we debate Presidential travels and as we want to criticise our President, let us do it fairly and with facts. To insinuate that he is travelling much more than other Presidents, I am only constrained because of diplomacy, there are leaders that travel almost every week and because of that, you will see that certain countries are moving and growing rapidly. We need to do just …

 

Mr Kufakwandi interjected.

 

Mr Kalaba: Madam Chairperson, the hon. Member for Sesheke talked about the issue of having Zambians working at the African Union (AU), World Health Organisation (WHO) and all these multilateral institutions. They can only go there if we set a platform that is acceptable and that is celebrated by our colleagues in the other regions. Therefore, if that is no done, it will be difficult.

 

Madam, right now, we are busy lobbying. We do not go to lobby when you have destroyed relations. You do not marry a woman you have been insulting day in, and day out. She will not accept your proposal, but instead, she will turn it down. Therefore, the same principles that we apply in life, it the same way we do our issues.

 

Mr Livune interjected.

 

Mr Kalaba: Hon. Katombola, you will do well to listen more than to shout from your seat because it will help you.

 

Madam Chairperson: Order!

 

Address the Chair, hon. Minister.

 

Mr Kalaba: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Laughter

 

 Mr Kalaba: Madam, again, the hon. Member for Mazabuka Central said that when I go abroad and meet my colleagues, Foreign Affairs Ministers, I do not tell the truth, and that when we interact, I tell them that there is peace in Zambia when in fact, there is no peace. If there is no peace, how come he is seated in that chair?

 

Hon. Government Members: Yes!

 

Mr Kalaba: In countries, where there is war, he cannot even wear the bow tie he is wearing.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Nkombo laughed.

 

 Mr Kalaba: He cannot! It is not possible. He would have been wearing cloths ready to run, ...

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kalaba: … but he is smelling good and smiling wide because this Government has produced an enabling environment ….

 

Government Members: Hear, hear

 

Mr Kalaba: …. where we can all thrive. Oh yes, it is a human system bound by human by human frailty, but we are doing all we can within our powers, together with our colleagues in the Opposition to ensure that the we govern this country to the best ability that can. My job, therefore, as Foreign Affairs Minister is to accentuate the good of this country.

 

Madam, even my son in my home is problematic, I would not go to my neighbours house and start talking about how bad my son is when my neighbours do not even talk about their sons. Is that the way you live?

 

Hon. Government Members: No!

 

Mr Kalaba: No!

 

Madam, Chairperson, our job is to bring out the best in our people. Therefore, when the President, the Vice-President, the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs or hon. Ministers go out, their job is make sure that they speak good about Zambia, which I know hon. Members have also done when they have gone abroad.

 

Madam, I had travelled with the late Hon. Muntanga, May His Soul Rest in Peace. Even at the time he was in the United Party for National Development (UPND) and I was in PF, when he stood up to speak at the platform of the Commonwealth Parliamentary (CPA), he spoke like a patriot and a Zambia with a lot of interest about his country. That is, how we should be.

 

Madam Chairperson, as one hon. Member clearly elucidated, the electoral process we had was free and fair.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kalala: I carry no crime on my hands when I go and tell my colleagues that the election was free and fair because it was. I carry no crime on my hands when I go and tell my colleagues outside the boundaries of this country that Zambia is a peaceful country, and that this is just about the best destination for investment because that is the status quo. This is what I will continue advocating for because that is what the leadership led by His Excellency President Lungu will continue advocating for because Zambia is indeed, a peaceful country.

 

Madam, chairperson, I take note of the sentiments raised in terms of the mortgage financing. The reason, we have introduced the mortgage financing is to be proactive as Government because we have been spending colossal sums of money in renting and we said that this cannot continue. In the spirit of austerity measures, we have began getting money from banks to build ore own facilities in the various missions that we have.

 

Yes, I have heard that seven countries are pulling out as a result of resources while Zambia is not doing anything. The truth of the matter is that when we look at our establishment, you would find that not all positions are filled. Right now as I speak, even in the yellow Book, not all the positions are being filled. Again, it is a question of austerity measures. We have looked at positions are critical, positions that can help Government deliver in the currently status and then, we have insisted on those positions and that is what we have done.

 

Madam Chairperson, there is nowhere in the world, where you send people in missions who do not carry the interests of the governing country. It is not done. Recently, there were elections in America. Everybody in the State Department is being asked to resign by tomorrow, 7^th December, 2016, so that new people, those who share the vision of the incoming President are given an opportunity to fill up those positions.

 

Madam, how can as a Government send people that do not carry our interests on their shoulders? Honestly, …

 

Hon. Government Members: Never!

 

Mr Kalaba: … it does not happen.  We need people who can support us. Actually, we have been prudent in the manner that we have been doing it because it has been very methodical. We have sent qualified people in the Foreign Service with the interest of mother Zambia at heart. We have not just said because you are PF, then, you can go.                           

 

Therefore, we have gone beyond the political divide in sending people into the foreign service. What is required is for people who are patriotic and believe in the ideals of the governing party to go and represent our country abroad. This is why we will bring the Foreign Service Bill here so that we demystify illusions such as only members of the Patriotic Front (PF) can be sent into the foreign service. Our missions abroad are for every Zambian. In future, we want to be advertising jobs in our missions abroad in the newspapers, a thing which could not have been done by other people had they been given the mandate to do what we are doing now.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kalaba: In conclusion, Madam Chairperson, I want to say that we will maintain the austerity measures that been proposed in the 2017 Budget. The President will go on foreign trips that are beneficial. He leaves for South Africa tomorrow to continue championing the cause of the Zambian people.

 

Interruptions

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kalaba: After he comes back from South Africa, he will proceed to Cairo to continue championing the cause of the Zambian people.

 

Mr Kampyongo: Ekuteka.

 

Mr Kalaba: When the President returns from Cairo, he will be receiving a king from Morocco, who will be travelling miles from Morocco to come here.

 

Madam Chairperson, when he travels, the President always ensures that he carries the necessary staff that would be relevant to the operations of where he is going. That is why when you see the lists of his delegation, they are always changing. The only one who is consistent on those lists is probably me as the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs. The rest of the delegates keep on changing because he carries people that are relevant to his work as he goes out.

 

My earnest appeal to hon. Members of Parliament is that if there is anything that they would want me to explain further beyond this, they are very welcome to Charter House. As leaders in this country, they are free to come and tell us what they would want the Ministry of Foreign Affairs to do for them. They should not feel constrained because of belonging to other political parties or anything of that sort. They are welcome and we will treat them as leaders of our country. Lastly, I would like to say thank you very much to the House for supporting our ministry’s estimates and for all the contributions that have been made.

 

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

VOTE 17/01 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Headquarters – K46,498,779).

 

The Minister of Finance (Mr Mutati): Madam Chairperson, I beg to move the following amendment:

 

1. Under 01 Human Resource and Administration Unit, Programme 3001 General Administration, Activity 006 Support to Minister’s Office, by the deletion of K1,090,445;

 

1. Under 01 Human Resource and Administration Unit, Programme 3001 General Administration, by the insertion of Activity 003 Office Administration, K1,090,445; and

 

1. Under 01 Human Resource and Administration Unit, Programme 3001 General Administration, Activity 092 Mortgage Financing and Maintenance of Property by the deletion of K23,225,904 and the substitution therefor of K24,088,777.

 

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

 

Mr Lufuma (Kabompo): Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on page 241, Programme 3001, Activity 006 − Support to Minister’s Office – K1,090,445. For 2016, this activity was allocated K342,757. For 2017, however, the allocation has more than trebled. What has necessitated this tremendous increase?

 

Mr Kalaba: Madam Chairperson, the increase is due to the fact that we had previously collapsed Activity 003 − Office Administration from all the departments.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Ms Chisangano (Gwembe): Madam Speaker …

 

The First Chairperson: Order!

 

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

 

[THE FIRST CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

 

The First Chairperson: Before Ms Chisangano can ask her question, I would like to ask the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs to clarify his response to the question raised by Mr Lufuma on Programme 3001, Activity 006 − Support to Minister’s Office – K1,090,445.

 

Mr Kalaba: Madam Chairperson, in fact, I had time during the break to talk to Hon. Lufuma and I was telling him that Programme 3001, Activity 006 − Support to Minister’s Office – K1,090,445 that he had asked a question on is part of the amendments that the hon. Minister of Finance had had just moved.

 

The First Chairperson: So for the record hon. Minister, what is the correct position?

 

Mr Kalaba: The amount of K1,090,445 is now falling under Activity 003 − Office Administration under the same programme.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Ms Chisangano: Madam Chairperson, my question is page 242, Programme 3045, Activity 004 – Transportation of Diplomats – K2,000,000. Why has the amount increased by more than four times from K483,000 to K2 million?

 

Mr Kalaba: Madam Chairperson, this has to do with the principle of variations or changes in the value of currencies. You will remember that two years ago the Kwacha was trading at about K5 or K6 to US$1 and now this exchange rate has gone up. So these figures have to be looked at in that context. When we are transporting diplomats, we have to pay certain amounts of money and therefore, we have to allocate amounts that will be equivalent to what is required to transport the diplomats. So this money is not being increased or anything of that sort, but it is just that we need to have the money to transport these goods at the correct rate.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

The First Chairperson: To transport diplomats and not goods.

 

Mr Kalaba: Yes, to transport diplomats. Thank you so much, Madam Chairperson.

 

Mr Lufuma: Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 3102, Activity 007 − Support to the office of the Permanent Secretary – K98,000. I assume the number of missions has remained the same and therefore, activities under the office of the Permanent Secretary (PS) in the ministry are more or less the same. A total of K392,480 was allocated for this activity in 2016. Notwithstanding the austerity measures that might have been put in place, it seems like it is a drastic decrease from K392,000 to K98,000. Will this not affect the operations of the office of the PS?

Mr Kalaba: Madam Chairperson, of course, we would have loved to have more resources given to us. We have spoken of austerity measures here. We do not have enough money, but we will have to make do with what is within our purview.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Mbangweta (Nkeyema): Madam Chairperson, I have understood the hon. Minister’s concern about exchange rate fluctuations. May I have clarification on Programme 3011, Activity 107 – Conveyance and Receipt of Diplomatic Bags/Correspondence – K30,000. In the spirit of austerity, would the hon. Minister wish to revisit this proposal?

 

Mr Kalaba: Madam Chairperson, we might as well close the Ministry of Foreign Affairs if we want this amount to be reduced. This amount will facilitate communication between our missions and the headquarters.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Jere (Livingstone): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3115, Activity 003 – Monitoring of Renovations in Missions – Nil. If you went round the streets of Lusaka, you would come across certain embassies, and the way they look paints a picture of where the people in those embassies come from. In all the previous budgets, ...

 

The First Chairperson: Order!

 

Ask your question.

 

Mr Jere: In this year’s budget, there was an allocation of K184,896 to this activity whereas next year, there is nothing. Why is it like this?

 

Mr Kalaba: Madam Chairperson, monies for infrastructure renovations have been put under one pool and this will be dispensed by the Permanent Secretary (PS) at the ministry headquarters under administration, and that is why they are not reflecting on individual items.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Mutelo (Mitete): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3001, Activity 023 – Dispute Resolution – K100,885. This activity was not budgeted for this year. What disputes is the Government going to be resolving since it said the elections were free and fair?

 

The First Chairperson: Hon. Minister, just answer the question as it relates to the allocation. Forget about the issue of elections being free and fair.

 

Mr Kalaba: Madam Chairperson, there are several disputes and resolutions that need to be carried out in most of our missions because there are times when we get into confrontations with the laws of different countries where we are operating and it is very important for us to deal with those issues. We also have issues locally. Sometimes, we are dragged through various judicial processes so we have to defend ourselves and resolve these matters.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Vote 17/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

Vote 17/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

Vote 17/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 17/04 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Missions Abroad – New York – K25,328,838).

 

Mr Lufuma: Madam Chairperson, the Department Total for this Mission this year was K24,104,181 and next year, it is K25,328,838. The hon. Minister mentioned that the increase of the amount in Kwacha allocated to this Mission next year was due to foreign exchange differences. If you look at the amount allocated next year in Dollar terms, you will notice that there has been a tremendous decrease. How does the hon. Minister intend to perform the duties of the diplomatic service with this amount of money?

 

Mr Kalaba: Madam Chairperson, of course, I said that fluctuations in the exchange rate were one of the reasons why the amount in Kwacha has increased. However, there are various reasons why this amount has been allocated. For example, we have decreased the activities in office administration. Therefore, the Department Total was not expected to go up. It had to remain static or cascade down.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Vote 17/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 17/05 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Missions Abroad – Lilongwe – K10, 557,881).

 

Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwezi): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3002, Activity 003 – Zambia Independence Day Celebrations – K12,500. How many people will be celebrating Zambia’s independence in Lilongwe for them to get this amount, when 80,000 people in Dundumwezi have not been budgeted for?

 

Mr Kalaba: Madam Chairperson, we are talking about economic diplomacy and so, the scope of our commemoration has now changed. When celebrating such events, we want to involve people from the corporate world, those that have got interest in Zambia to be around, so that we can talk about Zambia, tourism and all kinds of things. So, we need them in that event.

 

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

 

Mr Sing’ombe: Madam Chairperson, the hon. Minister has not responded to my question. How many people is he intending to invite to Independence Day celebrations in Lilongwe?

 

The Chairperson: I think that it is unreasonable to expect the hon. Minister to know the number of people who will be celebrating the national day.

 

Interruptions

 

Hon. Member: Long live the Chair!

 

Interruptions

 

The Chairperson: Order!

 

Vote 17/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 17/06 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Missions Abroad – London – K29,232,842)

 

The Minister of Finance (Mr Mutati): Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment under 02 Human Resource and Administration Unit, Programme 3001 General Administration, Activity 003 Office Administration, by the insertion of K130,000.00.

 

The Chairperson: Mr Mutelo, are you disagreeing with the amendment?

 

Mr Mutelo: Yes, Madam.

 

The Chairperson: It has already been agreed to.

 

Hon. Member: Stay with me now!

 

Laughter

 

The Chairperson: Do you want to ask another question? You can ask but not on the amendment.

 

Mr Mutelo: No, it is not on the amendment. Thank you, Madam.

 

May I seek clarification on Programme 3056, Activity 001 – Political and Economical Corporation – K37,900 which has been repeated twice on the same page. I do not know whether this is the same amendment or not. The Political and Economical Corporation has been allocated K37,900 whilst in Programme 3056, Activity 001 – Political and Economic Corporation - K50,000 has been allocated this amount on the same page. It seems to be the same programme but different activities.

 

Mr Kalaba: Madam Chairperson, if you look at Programme 3056, Activity 001- Political and Economic Corporation and you also look at Programme 3056, Activity 001- Political and Economic Corporation it is under 03 - Trade and Investment Unit, there is also Political and Economic Corporation. This one is under Trade and Investment Unit and the other one is under Political and Economic Relations. These are two different and distinct programmes we are talking about.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Vote 17/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 17/07 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Missions Abroad – Cairo – K11,610,953)

 

Ms Chonya: (Kafue): Madam Chairperson, may I seek clarification on Programme 3002, Activity 003 – Zambia Independence Day Celebrations – K11,000, I wanted to ride on the question asked by my colleague earlier. I have made an observation here that we are going to spend less money in Cairo as well as London, which we have just approved. So, I just wanted to find out what diplomatic economic activities we will be having in Malawi that are getting a bigger allocation than the other two countries that we are considering now.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

The Chairperson: Are you referring to Malawi or Cairo? We are on Cairo Ms Chonya but you are asking a question on Malawi which we have already passed.

 

Ms Chonya: I am making a comparison now, Madam.

 

The Chairperson: Can you just ask the question on Cairo?

 

Ms Chonya: Aah, well, my question was meant to make a comparison. I wanted to get the reasoning. So, …

 

Vote 17/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 17/08 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Missions Abroad – Nairobi – K11,655,178)

 

Mr Mutati: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment under 02 Human Resource and Administration Unit, Programme 3012 Infrastructure Development, Activity 010 Rehabilitation of Properties, by the deletion of K272,500.

 

Vote 17/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

Vote 17/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 17/10 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Missions Abroad – Kinshasa – K13,805,208)

 

Mr Mutati: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment under 02 Human Resource and Administration Unit, Programme 3012 Infrastructure Development, Activity 010 Rehabilitation of Properties, by the deletion of K262,753.

 

Vote 17/10 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

Vote 17/11 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

Vote 17/12 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 17/13 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Missions Abroad – Gaborone – K8,886,044)

 

Mr Mutelo: Madam Chairperson, may I seek clarification on Programme 3056, Activity 003 – Press and Public Relations – K26,406. This is the first time this activity is appearing in this mission unlike all these other missions. It is only under this mission where there is an allocation for 2017 which was not even there this year. Why is it just appearing only in one mission?

 

Mr Kalaba: Madam Chairperson, Programme 3056, Activity 003 – Press and Public Relation – K26,406, Gaborone hosts SADC and the country has not been receiving a lot of information regarding what has been happening especially in SADC because the headquarters has not been adequately covered by the press. Therefore, we are sending people there to go and ...

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Kalaba: ... cover activities on SADC.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Vote 17/13 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

Vote 17/15 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

Vote 17/18 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Mission Abroad – Abuja – K12,439,020)

 

Mr Mutati: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move the following amendment:

 

Under 02 Human Resource and Administration Unit, Programme 3012 Infrastructure Development, Activity 010 Rehabilitation of Properties, by the deletion of K289,816.

 

Amendment agreed to.

 

Vote17/18 amended accordingly.

 

Ms Chonya: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3056, Activity 001 – Political and Economic Cooperation – K19,000. There is a reduction of almost half in the wake of the losses we were talking about. What does this mean in terms of our relationship with Nigeria?

 

Mr Kalaba: Madam Chairperson, Programme 3056, Activity 001 – Political and Economic Cooperation – K19,000, as I said, it is the resource envelope that determines how much money we can have. In certain instances we would really love to have more money, but because of constraints of resources we make do with what is provided for us.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Mutelo: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification Programme 3012, Activity 010 – Rehabilitation of Properties – K289,816. Is this our own property or are we rehabilitating properties that we are renting?

 

Mr Kalaba: Madam Chairperson, Programme 3012, Activity 010 – Rehabilitation of Properties – K289,816, it is our property.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Vote 17/18, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

Vote 17/20 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Mission Abroad – Stockholm – K20,538,679)

 

Mr Sing’ombe: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification Programme 3056, Activity 001 – Political and Economic Cooperation – K19,000. Last year there was an allocation of K35,229 and this year we have K19,000. Why has the allocation reduced?

 

Mr Kalaba: Madam Chairperson, Programme 3056, Activity 001 – Political and Economic Cooperation – K19,000, the reduction is because of the number of activities that will be undertaken.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Vote 17/20 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

Vote 17/23 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Mission Abroad – New Delhi – K18,035,941)

 

Mr Mutati: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move the following amendment:

 

Under 02 Human Resource and Administration Unit, Programme 3001 General Administration, Activity 011 Utility Bills, by the insertion of K35,000.

 

 

Mr Jere rose.

 

The First Chairperson: Are you objecting to the amendment?

 

Mr Jere: No.

 

The First Chairperson: No? You are not objecting to the amendment?

 

Amendment agreed to.

 

Vote17/23 amended accordingly.

 

The First Chairperson: So the amendment is agreed to. Now you can ask your question.

 

Mr Jere: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification Programme 3018, Activity 001 – Consular Services – K50,000. Why is this allocation appearing for the first time in New Delhi and not in these other missions abroad?

 

Mr Kalaba: Madam Chairperson, Programme 3018, Activity 001 – Consular Services – K50,000, this is a new provision catering for consular services to Zambian nationals in the host country.

 

Mr Mutelo: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification Programme 3056, Activity 002 – Political and Economical Cooperation – Nil. Why is there no allocation for 2017?

 

Mr Kalaba: Madam Chairperson, Programme 3056, Activity 002 – Political and Economical Cooperation – Nil, this have been moved under the trade unit.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Mutelo rose.

 

The First Chairperson: Do you still have another question? The money has been moved to the trade unit. Do you have another question on the same or on another one?

 

Mr Mutelo: On a different one.

 

The First Chairperson: On a different one?

 

Mr Sing’ombe: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification Programme 3056, Activity 002 – Political and Economical Cooperation – Nil. The hon. Minister has just indicated that Activity 002 has been moved to another programme. What difference is it going to make? Why move it from where it was to another programme?

 

The First Chairperson: Hon. Mutelo, please take note of the answer to this question because it is almost on the same.

Mr Kalaba: Madam Chairperson, the activity has been moved to Programme 3656 – Political and Economic Relations. The reason why we have moved it is because we do not want to have segmentations of these similar activities. We want to put them under the same basket so that we can manage resources more efficiently and effectively.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Ms Mwashingwele (Katuba): Madam Chairperson, I think the hon. Minister is contradicting himself. In the other missions, he is saying that these activities go separately but on this one, he is saying that they are separating them for accountability purposes. Can the hon. Minister be very specific so that it is either we go two ways or one way in the whole Budget.

 

Mr Kalaba: Madam Chairperson, I am not contradicting myself. The modus operandi from mission to mission will dictate how these activities will be dealt with. We are dealing with a continent. Someone cannot compare what they are dealing with in India to what they are dealing with in Stockholm. Obviously, it will vary.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

   Ms Tambatamba (Kasempa): Madam Chairperson, my question has been overtaken by events.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Vote 17/23 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 17/24 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Missions Abroad – Maputo – K9,460,751).

 

Ms M. S. Chonya: Madam Chairperson, when I look at the amounts that have been allocated to activities such as political and economical co-operations, for example, Maputo, the K20,000 looks so little. I am assuming that this is the biggest activity that is supposed to be undertaken by these missions abroad. If we have so little in monetary terms, it suggests that there are very few activities happening as compared to other programmes. I seek clarification as to whether this is not what we were talking about during the policy debate, about having some missions …

 

The First Chairperson: Order, hon. Member. Can you ask a question so that you make it easy for the hon. Minister to respond. Please, ask a direct question.

 

Ms M. S. Chonya: Madam Chairperson, having put that into context, are we going to achieve anything with this little money that has been allocated to political and economic co-operations as compared to the other investments we are making in these programmes?

 

Mr Kalaba: Madam Chairperson, I agree that political and economic co-operation is at the epicenter of our foreign policy interaction. That is why I keep reminding the ones who had asked me earlier that some of these activities have been moved from where they are. The particular activity the hon. Members is talking about has been moved to Programme 3056, which is on Political and Economic Relations, Activity 001, under Trade Unit.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Vote 17/24 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 17/25 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Missions Abroad – Tokyo – K26,568,283).

 

Mr Mutati: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment under 02 Human Resource and Administrative Unit Programme 3012 Infrastructure Development Activity 007 Office Renovations and Maintenance, by the deletion of K186,986.

 

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

 

Vote 17/25, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 17/26 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Missions Abroad – Windhoek  –  K11,474,473).

 

Mr Mutati: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment under 02 Human Resource and Administration Unit, Programme 3012 Infrastructure Development, Activity 010 Rehabilitation of Properties, by the deletion of K126,318.

 

Mr Jere: Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 3012, Activity 010 – Rehabilitation of Properties – 126,318. I believe that once you renovate a property, it does not need to be renovated the following year. Why is it that this one has to be renovated every year?

                               

The First Chairperson: Hon. Member, it is properties. Have you taken note of that? They are more than once properties. Does that help?

 

Mr Kalaba: Madam Chairperson, you have adequately guided. It is not one property. It is quite a number of properties and the maintenance of properties is done on a perennial basis.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

 

Vote 17/26, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

Vote 17/27 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

Vote 17/28 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

Vote 17/30 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

Vote 17/31 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/32 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

Vote 17/33 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

Vote 17/35 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

Vote 17/36 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

Vote 17/37 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

Vote 17/39 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

Vote 17/40 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

Vote 17/41 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

Vote 17/42 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 17/43 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Mission Abroad – Brasilia – K19, 351,020).

 

Mr Mbangweta (Nkeyema): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3002, Activity 003 – Independence Day Celebrations – K27,000. Of all the missions abroad that we have dealt with, Brasilia has the highest allocation towards Independence Day celebrations. What is so special about it and what will happen on Independence Day in this mission?

 

Mr Kalaba: Madam Chairperson, Programme 3002, Activity 003 – Independence Day Celebrations – K27,000. The allocation is due to the scope of activities that will be undertaken in Brasilia.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kalaba: There are a number of activities and I can itemise them. I am very equal to the task. I can itemise the activities that you want. As I said earlier, it is a question of having Zambia extrapolate benefits of its being in Brasilia and a time such as that presents itself opportune for us to take advantage and market Zambia. This is the economic policy that we are talking about.

 

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

 

Mr Mweetwa (Choma Central): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3002, Activity 003 – Independence Day Celebrations – K27,000. I would like to find out if the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs is able to tell us these activities so that we can distinguish the difference between these programmes he is putting as generic activities and other missions.

 

Mr Kalaba: Madam Chairperson, I will forgive the hon. Member because he has not been in the House and, since these things are progressing, they need to be followed in that context.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Kalaba:  The truth of the matter is that activities vary from mission to mission. I have said this time and again. I want to say, once more, that Zambia needs to be attracted to the attention of Brazil in South America. It is a relatively new mission and we all need to put our efforts together. The amount of money that we might spend in Brasilia might not be the same as what we might spend in Rome. This is because different situations will require different solutions, Hon. Mweetwa. My Permanent Secretary (PS) will tell you that it is the definition of insanity to uplift a model from one country and take it to another and expect it to operate and give the same result. It does not work that way. So, we have to use different methodologies in different countries.

 

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

 

Vote 17/43 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

Vote 17/45 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 17/46 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Missions Abroad – Abu Dhabi – K14,891,424).

 

Mr Mutati: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move the following amendment:

 

(i)         under 01 Human Resource and Administration Unit, Programme 3000 Personal Emoluments, Activity 001 Salaries Division 1, by the deletion of K625,080; and

 

(ii)        under 01 Human Resource and Administration Unit, Programme 3000 Personal Emoluments, Activity 005 Other Emoluments, by the deletion of K14, 266,344

 

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

 

Vote 17/46, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

Mrs Tambatamba (Kasempa): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3000, Activity 005 – Other Emoluments – K14, 226,344. What caused the jump from K5,767,337 to K14, 266,344.

 

Mr Kalaba: Madam Chairperson, the change in structure in Abu Dhabi is simply because the mission in the United Arab Emirates is new.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Kalaba: Yes, it is a new mission and, it follows, therefore, that there are realignments in the structure that need to be done that will attract more payments.

 

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

 

Mrs Mwashingwele (Katuba): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3002, Activity 003 – Zambia Independence Day Celebrations – Nil. Am I to believe that they will be no Independence Day celebrations in Abu Dhabi next year?

 

Mr Kalaba: Madam Chairperson Programme 3002, Activity 003 – Zambia Independence Day Celebrations – Nil. The mission has not yet opened.

 

Hon. UND Members: Aah!

 

Mr Kalaba: Yes.

 

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

 

Mr Lufuma (Kabompo): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3002, Activity 003 – Zambia Independence Day Celebrations – Nil. The answers from the hon. Minister are a bit confusing. If the mission has not yet opened and there will be no Independence Day celebrations what are these other emoluments that have been lined up in this Budget?

 

The First Chairperson: Are you asking the same question that was asked before?

 

Mr Lufuma: No, Madam. It is coined differently. He is saying that the mission is not operational. So, if it is not operational, why are there funds allocated for staff?

 

Mr Kalaba: Madam Chairperson, Programme 3002, Activity 003 – Zambia Independence Day Celebrations – Nil. We have to have funds approved before the mission is opened. We cannot open without the hon. Members of this House approving the funds.

 

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

 

Mr Jere (Livingstone): Madam Chairperson, on page 281…

 

The First Chairperson: We have passed page 281. We are now on page 283.

 

Mr Jere: Sorry, on page 283, Programme 3002, Activity 003 – Zambia Independence Day Celebrations – nil, I want to know what happened to the money approved last year.

 

Mr Kalaba: Madam Chairperson, when monies are approved it does not mean that they are expended there and then. Like the mission in Abu Dhabi, the monies are with the Ministry of Finance who will release the money as and when the institution is operational. If the institution is not operational no money is disbursed. That is why in certain missions which are operating and there are vacancies for staff, money is not disbursed to those missions. The treasury does not release the money until the vacancies are filled. We have the authority from this august House but to operationalise is another thing, meaning like you have now approved this budget, in October or July next year we will be running because you have given us the nod.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Ms Chonya (Kafue): Madam Chairperson, I beg for the hon. Minister’s clarification on this budget because the amendment that was approved earlier was actually to delete K625 080 that is on emoluments and the other K14, 266,344 meaning that this entire mission has no money in my own understand of that deletion. What approval is the hon. Minister talking about for there is no money that has be allocated to enable this mission operate next year.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Ngulube: Question!

 

Mr Kalaba consulted with the hon. Minister of Finance.

 

The First Chairperson: Hon. Minister, I will give you two minutes to make reference to the amendment that the hon. Minister of Finance has just moved in responding to that question raised by Ms Chonya.

 

Are you ready now?

 

Mr Kalaba showed ascent.

 

The First Chairperson: You can go ahead.

 

Mr Kalaba: The amendment which was made as she has clearly elucidated, simply indicates that what we are approving now might not be the name Abu Dhabi but it will be Dubai.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

 

Mr Kalaba: Yes!

 

That is the amendment. It is not Abu Dhabi but Dubai. We need to approve the monies in order for Dubai to be operational.

 

Mr Ngulube: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kalaba: It is United Arab Emirates. The principle is United Arab Emirates, the city is not Abu Dhabi but it will be Dubai.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Mr Ngulube: Mwaufya!

 

Tamwayako iwe.

 

Mr Mweetwa (Choma Central): Madam Chairperson, the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs in justifying this budget said that it is because of realignment. I wanted to understand what realignment this is given the fact that he said this is a new mission.

 

Mr Kalaba: Madam Chairperson, even if it is a new mission, the realignment is in what activities we will be doing as we go into Dubai, in the United Arab Emirates. Off course, we need to have a strategy when we go there. We need to realign the activities considering the objectives that we want to extrapolate.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Miyutu indicated to debate.

 

The First Chairperson: I hope your question is not on this Vote. The hon. Minister has responded very clearly that this mission should now read Dubai and not Abu Dhabi.

 

Are you asking on the same Vote?

 

Mr Miyutu: It is a different question.

 

Madam Chairperson, Supplement to the Votes and Proceedings of Friday, 2^nd December, 2016 by the hon. Minister of Finance, this is the amendment on Head 17/46 Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Missions abroad – Abu Dhabi:

 

(ii)        under 01 Human Resource and Administration Unit, Programme 3000 Personal Emoluments, Activity 005 Other emoluments, by the deletion of K14,266,344.

 

My question therefore is, where is it stated that it is not Abu Dhabi but Dubai?

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

The First Chairperson: Hon. Minister, I know we are not yet at Head 17/58 – Missions Abroad – Dubai, it is not appearing in the Yellow Book perhaps the response should be that this allocation will be found when we get to Head 17/58 as you make the explanation.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Sing’ombe: Madam Chairperson, you cannot help the hon. Minister.

 

The First Chairperson: I know but the issue is that the amendment that the hon. Minister has just moved on Abu Dhabi does not deal with the new name of Dubai where this allocation is actually supposed to go.

 

I think in clarifying that hon. Minister, kindly mention the fact that we are not at Head 17/58 yet where Dubai is appearing.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Kalaba: Madam Chairperson, I was responding to the hon. Member of Parliament for Kafue. She had said, according to her, this should not even be seen here because there is no need for it to appear that is why I was prompted to pre-empty and say that monies have been moved to Dubai for that is what is going to be opened. That is what I was saying.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Question put and agreed to.

 

Vote 17/46, as amended, ordered to stand of the Estimates.

 

Vote 17/47 ordered to stand of the Estimates.

 

Vote 17/48 ordered to stand of the Estimates.

 

Vote 17/49 ordered to stand of the Estimates.

 

Vote 17/50 ordered to stand of the Estimates.

 

Vote 17/51 ordered to stand of the Estimates.

 

Vote 17/52 ordered to stand of the Estimates.

VOTE 17/53 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Missions Abroad – Helsinki – Nil)

 

The First Chairperson:Hon. Minister of Finance, could you explain why there is no allocation in 2017 for Programme 3000, Activity 001 – Salaries Division 1 – Nil, Activity 005 – Other Emoluments – Nil, Programme 3001, Activity 003 – Office Administration – Nil, Activity 011 – Utility Bills – Nil, Programme 3002, Activity 003 – Zambia Independence Day Celebrations – Nil, Programme 3056, Activity 001 – Political and Economical Co-operation – Nil.

 

Mr Mutati: Madam Chairperson, this particular mission Helsinki will not be opened next year.

 

Thank you, Madam.

 

Hon.  UPND Membersrose.

 

The First Chairperson: You want to ask questions on a mission that is not openingand, therefore, there is no allocation.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Yes!

 

Interruptions

 

The First Chairperson: Order, hon. Members!

 

You can only speak if I ask you to speak. First of all, sit down.

 

Hon. UPND Membersresumed their seats.

 

The First Chairperson: I mentioned Head 17/53 – Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Missions Abroad – Helsinki and the hon. Minister of Finance who allocates resources has told this House that the mission is not going to be opened and, therefore, there is no allocation. Now, I do not know what you hon. Members want to ask about because there is no allocation.

 

Hon. UPND Members rose.

 

The First Chairperson:No, I am not going to allow questions because there is no allocation. Please, sit down.

 

Vote 17/54 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 17/55 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Missions Abroad – Havana – Nil).

 

The First Chairperson:Hon. Minister of Finance, again, could you explain why there is no allocation in 2017 for Programme 3000, Activity 001 – Salaries Division I – Nil, Activity 002 – Salaries Division II – Nil, Activity 005 – Other Emoluments – Nil, Programme 3001, Activity 003 – Office Administration – Nil, Activity 011 – Utility Bills – Nil, Programme 3002, Activity 019 – Independence Celebrations – Nil, Programme 3056, Activity 001 – Political and Economic Co-operation – Nil.

 

Mr Mutati: Madam Chairperson, again, this missionwill not be opened in 2017.

 

Thank you, Madam.

 

Hon. UPND Members rose.

 

The First Chairperson: No questions!

 

VOTE 17/56 – (Ministry of   Foreign Affairs – Missions Abroad – Canberra – K15,674,298).

                            

Mr Mutati: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move the following amendment:

 

1. Under 02 Human Resource and Administration Unit, Programme 3001 General Administration, Activity 013 Labour Day Celebrations, by the deletion of K5,000; and

 

1. Under 02 Human Resource and Administration Unit, by the insertion of Programme 3002 Events, Activity 013 Independence Day Celebrations, K5,000.

 

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

 

Vote 17/56, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 17/57 – (Ministry of   Foreign Affairs – Missions Abroad – Guanzhou – K767,818,851).

 

Mr Mutati: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move the following amendment:

         

Under 02 Human Resource and Administration Unit, by the insertion, immediately after Programme 3001 General Administration, of Programme 3056 Political and Economic Relations, Activity 002 Political and Economic Co-operation, K30,000.

 

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.    

 

Vote 17/57, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 17/58 – (Ministry of   Foreign Affairs – Missions Abroad – Dubai – K14,891,424).

 

Mr Mutati: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move the following amendment:

 

By the insertion, immediately after Head 17/57 of:

 

HEAD 17/58 – MINISTRY OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS – MISSIONS ABROAD – DUBAI

 

1. Programme 3000 Personal Emoluments, Activities 001 Salaries Division 1, K625,080 and 005 Other Emoluments, K14,266,344; and

 

1. Programme 3001 General Administration, Activities 003 Office Administration, K30,500 and 011 Utility Bills, K50,000.

 

The First Chairperson: Hon. Minister of Finance, could you explain the insertion of Head 17/58 for the record. There is no amount in the Yellow Book on this particular page.

 

Mr Mutati: Madam Chairperson, earlier on we were talking about Head 17/46 – Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Mission Abroad – Abu Dhabi.  The monies were moved from Abu Dhabi to Dubai because that is where the operations are going to be. We have made a circulation for the amendments and this will be an insertion in the Yellow Book. That is the explanation.

 

The First Chairperson: That is the explanation. The issue of Abu Dhabi hadarisen earlier and the hon. Minister has adequately explained.

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: Madam Chairperson, the hon. Minister should tell us that he is inserting a new headwhich is not in the Yellow Book. It is not an amendment.

 

The First Chairperson: Hon. Minister, I think that is a very fair request that we are not amending, but inserting a head that is not in the Yellow Book. However, the resources have been allocated under a different head reading as Abu Dhabi which we have agreed must now read as Dubai.

 

Mr Mutati: Madam Chairperson, that is why the professor is my colleague, I agree.

 

Thank you, Madam.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Amendment agreed to.

                                                                                      

Vote 17/58 accordinglyordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 27 – (Public Service Management Division – K45,221,283).

 

The Vice-President (Mrs Wina): Madam Chairperson, Public Service Management Division (PSMD) is one of the divisions in the Office of the President charged with the overall responsibility of human resource management in the Public Service. PSMD derives its mandate from Government Notice No. 183 of 2012 of Statutory and Composition of Government Portfolios doing one of the divisions in the Office of the President. The specific portfolio functions allocated to the division are as follows:

 

1. Public Service Management;

 

1. Human Resource Management and Development; and

 

1. Strategic and Performance Management Services.

 

Madam Chairperson, during the 2016 financial year, the division undertook the following major programmes and activities:

 

1. Public Service Management.

 

1. under this function, the division initiated the computerisation of the records management system with the focus on the implementation of an electronic file tracking system to facilitate effective and efficient processing of human resource cases in the public service;

 

1. the division continued to provide technical support to line ministries and statutory bodies in the implementation of records management systems;

 

1. the division continued monitoring personal emoluments expenditure in all ministries, provinces and other spending agencies. This enabled the division to control the personal emoluments expenditure in the Public Service. In addition, the division produced the establishment register to support the 2017 Estimates of Expenditure;

 

1. the division also facilitated the implementation of the Public Service mandatory contributory group funeral assistant scheme effective 1^st January, 2016, whose aim is to lighten the burden of funeral expenses for Public Service employees; and

 

1. the division facilitated negotiations with the Public Service unions on the improvement of salaries and conditions of service for the unionised Public Service employees which resulted in salary increments of between 5.1 and 19.4 per cent. Further, the division facilitated the implementation of a notching system for non-management positions.

 

1. Human Resource Management and Development

 

1. the division initiated the development of recruitment and replacement guidelines for use in ministries, provinces and other spending agencies in order to effectively implement human resource reforms in the Public Service;

 

1. further, the division continued to facilitate the acquisition of relevant qualifications and competencies by coordinating the utilisation of local and external scholarship opportunities resulting in 1,212 government employees trained. In addition, the division undertook a country capacity profiling exercise to generate a base line for identification of clear capacity gaps upon which well motivated and justified programmes can be designed for multi-year country interventions in identified areas of focus;

 

1. the division continued to develop the human resources planning framework, whose aim is to guide ministries, provinces and other spending agencies on human resource planning and forecasting. The framework advocates for comprehensive human resource planning to ensure that the right people, with the right qualifications, skills and competencies are placed in the right positions in the civil service;

 

1. the division also undertook a survey on the statutory retirement options with a view of establishing the number of Public Service employees wishing to retire under the available retirement options of fifty five years, sixty years and sixty five years respectively. The division is still analysing the findings of the survey. However, preliminary results indicate that most employees opt to retire at sixty and to be paid a 67 per cent lump sum. The results of the survey will facilitate the timely processing of retirement cases or the mobilisation of resources for pension benefits. The survey also sought to establish whether serving officers contributing to Public Service pensions funds are aware of the available payment options such as the one third and two thirds lump sum payments; and

 

1. the division continued to implement the pay policy by rationalising and harmonising salaries and conditions of service for public service institutions. The division conducted the job evaluation and re-grading exercise for the local authorities. The new salary structure has since been implemented thereby ensuring that local authorities employees are remunerated equitably.

 

1. Strategic and Performance Management Services

 

1. the division continued to roll out the Performance Management Package (PMP) resulting in the installation of PMP in two provinces, namely the Northern and Luapula Provinces.

 

Programmes and Activities to be undertaken in 2017

 

Madam Chairperson, the total budget provision for 2017 is K45,221,283. Through the 2017 Budget, PSMD will continue with its mandate of providing strategic policy direction and leadership in the management of human resources by focusing on the following areas:

 

1. Public Service Management

1. PSMD will upgrade the PMEC system and interconnect it with the integrated financial Management System (IFMIS) to ensure smooth operation of the system by replacing obsolete equipment and software with modern equipment. Further, the division will ensure that personal expenditure on the PMEC system is within the approved Budget by among other things identifying payroll audit and verification exercises;

 

(ii)        continue to provide technical support in the implementation of records management system in the Public Service. Additionally, the division will continue with the process of computerising the record management system in the public service focusing on digitalisation of official Public service records in ministries and statutory bodies;

 

 

1. continue to co-ordinate the implementation of the Mandatory Group Funeral Assistance Scheme for Public Service employees, industrial relations and labour matters in the Public Service, in line with the collective agreements for improved salaries and conditions of service;

 

1. continue to review conditions of service for the Public Service to ensure equal pay for equal work and motivate employees, especially those serving in remote and hard-to-reach areas;

 

1. continue to disseminate human resource policies and guidelines through sensitisation programmes;

 

1. continue to co-ordinate negotiations between the Government and the Public Service unions for improved salaries and conditions of service for the Public Service;

 

1. review the terms and conditions of service and human resource manuals, in line with the human resource reforms;

 

1. revise the Disciplinary Code and Procedures for handling offences in the Public Service, in order to streamline the disciplinary process in the Public Service, in line with human resource reforms; and

 

1. facilitate the implementation of the notching system for management positions,

 

(b)        Human Resource Management and Development

 

1. PSMD will finalise the development of recruitment and placement guidelines to facilitate the implementation of the Public Service Human Resource Reforms;

 

1. continue to co-ordinate technical assistance on training from co-operating partners and provide technical support on human resource development across the Public Service;

 

1. undertake a staff qualifications audit in the Public Service in order to build a comprehensive database on qualifications for Public Service employees ; and

 

1. commence the process of institutionalising human resource planning in Government ministries and departments.

 

(c)        Strategic and Performance Management services

 

1. PSMD will undertake a comprehensive institutionalisation of the performance management package in the Public Service in order to improve the performance and productivity of the Public Service;

 

1. implement the performance management package, monitoring and evaluation framework whose aim is to hold Public Service employees accountable for their performance.

 

Madam Chairperson, in conclusion, I wish to state that the success of any nation is to a large extent dependent on the availability of a competent human resource. It is, therefore, encumbered upon this august House to support PSMD’s estimates of expenditure on the proposed programmes and activities for the year 2017.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

 

Ms Mwashingwele (Katuba): Madam Chairperson, I wish to thank Her Honour the Vice-President for her policy statement and state that the budget of K45,221,283 for the Public Service Management Division (PSMD) is very welcome, albeit with one or two observations.

 

Madam Chairperson, we should understand that at independence, the Public Service in Zambia had only 100 graduates. Today, we have a commendable number. Unfortunately, graduates today are being scattered all over. Some of them are being retired on national interest after barely serving the nation for ten or fifteen years. Public service workers are the technocrats of this nation and if we want the Public Service to serve this nation as we would like it to then we must appreciate them.  We must appreciate them regardless of their political or regional affiliation.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Mwashingwele: As a country, we need to understand that the idea of moving these technocrats at will because they do not support a particular political understanding …

 

Mr Ngulube: Question!

 

Ms Mwashingwele: …affects the Public Service.

 

We should realise that immediately the Public Service becomes unstable, the whole nation is unstable. We need these people to cement our social, economic and political growth. This can only happen when we understand and appreciate them, as her Honour the Vice-President clearly defined it. We need to protect them and give them proper emoluments. We also need to look at them as a people that are actually vital to our growth as a nation and, whom we appreciate.

 

Madam Chairperson, Her Honour the Vice-President also mentioned the retirement package for Public Service workers. This is something that we are all aware of. Even those that are saying that they need facts, unless they have never been employed in the Public Service, know what I am talking about. We need to understand that at retirement, Public Service department suffers a lot, especially when monies are delayed. This is some form of justice delayed. They need their retirement package on time for sustainability and survival, after doing a commendable job.  I implore that as we look at the 2017 Budget, we see to it that retirees are paid to give them some form of relief.

 

Having said this, can we see to it that our record keeping is consistent? We have a problem of unco-ordinated record keeping in the Public Service. As a result, you find that the provincial and national recording are not tandem, giving a lot of problems, particularly to the Public Service. Consequently, it has given us a lot of confusion. We have a lot of ghost workers in the Public Service, resulting in people being paid for jobs that they are not doing.

 

As for most people posted to rural areas, they are there on paper. For example, a school may have eighteen members of staff, but when you physically go on the ground, you will find only two members of staff and yet the other people, who are not there, are also getting a salary. This is not good for the Government. So, when we talk about record keeping in the Public Service, we need to do a lot of cleaning up. I am glad that Her Honour the Vice-President has acknowledged that we need to do a lot of cleaning up so that we bring our records up to speed in order to benefit from our Public Service.

 

My debate is supposed brief, and so to conclude, I want to say that a motivated worker will give you a better result. All of us are seated here because we are highly motivated.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Who?

 

Ms Mwashingwele: I would want to see the Public Service also motivated and kept well.

 

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

 

Mr Mbangweta (Nkeyema): Madam Chairperson, I rise to first and foremost support the proposed budget for the Public Service Management Division (PSMD). In my view PSMD is as important as the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU).

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mbangweta: So, it cuts across, and therefore, we should support it.

 

Madam Chairperson, I would like to say a few words given the importance functions which, Her Honour the Vice-President had indicated, which this division is supposed to do. The first thing that we need to do if we have to achieve what we intend to attain is to give the division the capacity to carry out the functions and the assignments, which Her Honour the vice-President indicated. It will help a great deal if as a matter of fact this division is used to the fullest in our decision making processes to inform the decision, which the Government takes because this division operates within the Cabinet Office.

 

From the outset, I will go to straight to the subject which is problematic in this House, but rather important in the context of this division.

 

Madam, Her Honour the Vice-President has indicated that this division also carries out job evaluation. How nice it would have been if the Cabinet Office or the Public Service Management Division (PSMD) had been allowed to carry out a job evaluation between the District Commissioner, mayor and Chairperson. A report from the PSMD will clearly indicate whether it was necessary to have the position of either the Chairperson, mayor or the DC. If that was the case, then, the Government would be making very good decisions because they will be made on the basis of technical advice.

 

Madam Chairperson, the other issue is that we have just approved the budget proposal for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, but within this ministry, there are three components such as job description, re-organisation and audit. Again, this is a division, which can actually carry out the functions, which are proposed even at a cheaper price than what is being proposed even by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Therefore, in this case, if we do not use this division appropriately, then, we would find that whatever they do is not fully utilise, but can add a lot of value to the Civil Service.

 

Madam, the other issue which is problematic is the Performance Management System, which Her Honour the Vice-President indicated that it is being rolled from the top to the bottom, but that is a full time job and can only be done by a division, which has the capacity to, clout and can be listened to. Indeed, this is a division which is supposed to make sure that even the protocol of applying the PMS across the Civil Service is consistent. Otherwise, the plan which the Government might have will not succeed because everybody and the people who are supposed to be affected by this have their own interpretation. In terms of the negotiations with the unions, of course, I symphasise with them because maybe, the resource envelope is not good enough to cover the aspirations of the Government and the workers especially, the unionised workers.

 

In supporting this budget line, I am suggestion is that maybe, Her Honour the Vice-President, could maybe, re-align and just come up with two or three because there is no way they can achieve what is being proposed given the staffing levels, family arrangement and the breadth of our country.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Madam Second Chairperson: Order!

 

I had guided earlier that I will take Mr Mweetwa and Dr Situmbeko Musokotwane.

 

Mr Mweetwa (Choma Central): Madam Chairperson, I would like to thank you for allowing me this opportunity to ventilate on one or two issues in respect of the Head that we are currently debating.

 

Madam Chairperson, actually, maybe, I intend to make my submission the shortest in my entire lifespan of Parliamentary debate knowing very well that Dr Musokotwane will do justice as agreed between him and myself.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Chairperson, I just wanted to make reference to what Her Honour the Vice-President has stated in respect of placement of professionals to various sectors in the Public Service endevour. I regret to state on the Floor of this House that for instance, when we look at the Auditor General’s report and the lamentations thereof that come as a result of various irregularities cited therein, it is as a result of poor placement of professionals. How I wish what Her Honour the Vice-President was saying was true because then, we would not have been seeing those challenges we are seeing as illuminating as exhibited by the Office of the Audit General if indeed, the Public Service Management Division (PSMD) was on top of things in terms of placement of professionals to a espouse professionalism in terms of various job portfolios that various service officers would stationed.

 

Madam, just to buttress that, we have just gone through the Ministry Foreign Affairs Head to approve the K767,818,815 million for the foreign service. This is where, we have the biggest problem, where these politicians are busy ignoring the role of the PSMD as espoused by the Vice-President in terms of profession job placement, but instead, they begin to interfere with the work of the PSMD and they are busy sending your relatives and cadres in the Foreign Service to an extent …

 

Madam Second Chairperson: Order!

 

Mr Mweetwa, please address the Chair because you start addressing hon. Ministers, they will have to react. Let us maintain order. Address the Chair, please. You may continue.

 

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Chairperson, I thank you for the guidance.

 

Madam, I am talking about politicians and that includes me.

 

Madam Chairperson, the point that I was trying to buttress is that how I wish what the Vice-President was saying was given space so that the PSMD can do and carry out their mandate as stated in support of their budget unlike what we are being told that the PSMD does and yet, when it comes to practicalities, some politicians take charge and being to send their relatives without qualifications, for instance, in the civil service.

 

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Chairperson, let me now move to the last point because I promised that I will be very brief.

 

Madam, I want to talk about the role that Her Honour the Vice-President has mentioned in respect of retirement age. This is a very crucial issue, which in my view, maybe, the PSMD has not done justice to sensitise its clientele, the civil servants about the new retirement age because what is happening now is that many civil servants who are retiring are actually not aware that in terms of the new retirement age, all those who are employed before this new retirement age law was put in place are not amenable to it that they are entitled to retire at fifty-five years and get their lump sum at retirement.

 

For instance, the new retirement age law stipulates that if someone is going to retire at sixty years, you are only entitled to a 10 per cent of the lamp sum and, therefore, the reminder of would be package will be paid to you as a monthly allowance.

 

Madam, assuming that and, I am not wishing for the waste, retirees acquiesces to going on that system …  

 

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.                  

 

[THE FIRST CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

 

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Chairperson, before business was suspended, I was just beginning to belabour my point on the new law relating to the retirement age for the public service. Many civil servants are not aware that the new law does not bind them, but rather if they opt by choice to go for the sixty years retirement age, they make themselves available or amenable to the following vagaries.

 

First of all, when they retire at sixty years old, they will only be entitled to 10 per cent of their accumulated benefits and the reminder of their would-be or would have been lamb sum will be graduated and paid into monthly allowances until death. Assuming that somebody who retired at sixty years dies after receiving that 10 per cent and only three of those monthly allowances, their estate cannot claim what should have been their original lamb sum if they had retired at the age of fifty-five. The majority of civil servants do not know this.

 

Madam Chairperson, I am speaking like this because I was chairperson for the Committee on Delegated Legislation when this matter came before that Committee. I also know for a fact that this measure was actually implemented for political expediency because there was not actuarial advice for this decision to be put in place the way it has now been done.

 

Madam Chairperson, I always encounter teachers and nurses, for instance, in my constituency in Choma that are in such circumstances. When a teacher is about to retire at fifty-fives year old, the office of the District Education Board Secretary (DEBS) will write him/her a noting saying that the new laws requires them to continue working up to the age of sixty years. Now, once this poor person reports for work thereafter, it means they have acquiescent to the new law, which makes them amenable to receive only 10 per cent of their terminal benefits at retirement.

 

However, if the Public Service Management Division (PSMD) had done what I think should have been done to inform its clientele, those who reach fifty-five years, but the DEBS writes to them a letter or whatever notification to continue working, which is not binding at law, should be able to refuse to report for work because they want to retire at fifty-five years so that they can get their full retirement benefits. This is not happening and a lot of civil servants are going to lose out and inadvertently, they do not know. It is just at some future date when they will discover these implications.

 

Madam, I, therefore, wish the PSMD could be able to advise its clientele properly. In fact, I am also aware that this is just postponement of a problem because the pension schemes are bankrupt. They are not able to pay retirees. So, as a way of trying to import some level of stability, civil servants are being told that there is a new law which requires them to continue working after fifty-five years and they will get paid later on some future date. I think this is a serious matter which needs to be addressed.

 

Madam Chairperson, as I wind up …

 

Mr Mubika: No, continue.

 

Mr Mweetwa: … because I promised a very short submission and I am keeping that promise, I want to state that in terms of what the hon. Minister of Finance stated that the country is aspiring for economic recovery, economic recovery does not happen by accident. You need certain characteristics of human resource deployment and productivity that must be in-sync with the aspirations of a country, such as what the hon. Minister of Finance stated to this House. However, I contend that what we have seen in terms of staff deployment in the civil service is that there is still a great deal of deployment of staff based on kinship. Deploying staff is based on connections and relations. This will undermine productivity because productivity is connected and linked with competencies and not who you are and where you come from.

 

Madam Chairperson, I would like to bring to the fore that the PSMD should be cognisant of the fact that around the globe now, human resource development is shifting from focusing solely on individual human development. The world is no longer singling out an individual or two by sending them for studies so as to improve the capacities of the human resource stock, but rather moving towards institutional assessment to make institutions stronger so that human beings who are going to be operating within those institutions find themselves confined to a system which is strong. This ensures service delivery because, like I said, productivity or economic recovery will not come by accident. You need the right organisational structure, competencies and systems to deliver the agenda for productivity and economic recovery. So I hope the PSMD is going to take this into account, notwithstanding the fact that I sympathise with this division’s situation. When you have a government with an executive such as that of the Patriotic Front (PF), I do not know if anything I have said will be picked at all.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Kampyongo: Question!

 

Dr Musokotwane (Liuwa): Madam Chairperson, I have two points to contribute to the Vote on the Public Service Management Division (PSMD) and I thank Her Honour the Vice-President for her presentation of the policy statement. My first point is that I listened very carefully on the programmes for the PSMD in 2017. My conclusion is that there are indeed some strings that are particularly important for workers in the urban areas, but for us who represent rural constituencies, there are some very important elements that have been left out of these programmes that need to be addressed.

 

First of all, I think all these issues relate to the Payroll Management and Establishment Control (PMEC) system. This is the computer system that is utilised for paying public workers. I think we have a serious problem with this system. Most rural constituencies do not have teachers in schools and I have spoken about this for so many times. You find that a school from Grade 1 to 9 only has two teachers and those that have three are very lucky.

 

When I ask why there are not enough teachers at a certain school, the answer I get here is that according to the Public Service Management Division (PSMD), there are supposed to be five or six teachers at that school. However, they are not there. What happens is that when there is recruitment for teachers, the Government may say that it wants to recruit twenty teachers to go and work in Liuwa. Many young people from the Copperbelt, Central, Lusaka and other provinces will say they are prepared to go and work there. They will be employed and a salary will be allocated to them. Once they get to Liuwa, they will work there for two or three months and then go back to where they came from. As far as the system is concerned, those teachers are still in Liuwa. The town centres are full of teachers, but 5 km or ten km away from there, there are no teachers. So, I think the PSMD needs to address this issue.

 

I suggest that the Payroll Management Establishment and Control System (PEMEC) must be decentralised for rural civil servants including teachers so that the District Education Board Secretaries (DEBS) who are in charge of teachers in the districts can control all the monies relating to salaries in the district. In a similar way, in a constituency, there must be a way of ensuring that each school controls the salaries that go to that school. This means that if somebody who got a job as a teacher in Liuwa decides to leave and go somewhere else, his salary must be left behind in Liuwa. Liuwa will then have the freedom to say, “This person who came from Mufulira and pretended that he wanted to be a teacher here has gone back where he came from, but at least, we have our money and can hire another teacher.” It might even be better, hon. Minister of Finance, to reintroduce the hiring of untrained teachers because it is better to have at least untrained teachers who are able to impart some knowledge to children than to have only one or two trained teachers in a school. That is totally useless. I recommend this idea of having the DEBS manage salaries for teachers in the districts very strongly. If the others do not want it, that is up to them. We, the people of Liuwa are saying that the Government should give us the money that belongs to our teachers so that we can hire teachers who are prepared to work for us because this PEMEC system is not working for us.

 

Another point I want to make again relates to PEMEC and the way we pay civil servants. Teachers in some parts of Liuwa have to walk for four days to reach the nearest bank to get paid. Once they reach the Boma, they are given five days by the DEBS to go shopping. After that, they have to walk back for another four days.

 

Interruptions

 

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, I think it is important that when hon. Ministers tour places in the Western Province, they should not just go to Kalabo or Mongu. They must go deep inside the rural areas. Otherwise, they will be deceiving themselves that they are delivering development. Teachers take four days to walk to the Boma, five days to shop and another four days to walk back to their posts. How many days are lost? Almost half of the month is lost. Then you wonder why children in Liuwa are now failing to compete with others when Liuwa used to have intelligent children like Arthur Wina, Mundia Nalumino ...

 

Mr Mwiimbu: And Yourself!

 

Laughter

 

Dr Musokotwane: And myself.

 

Laughter

 

Dr Musokotwane: The children are failing to compete because engagement with teachers is simply not there. The programmes that Her Honour the Vice-President has described here at great length are good for people in urban areas like Lusaka. However, for us people in the rural areas, 90 per cent of those programmes are irrelevant. What is relevant is what I have talked about.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Bwalya (Lupososhi): Madam Chairperson, the Teaching Service Commission, the Local Government Commission and other Public Service commissions form the Public Service. The Public Service Management Division (PSMD) is very key in harmonising these service commissions. Management of the Pubic Service is disjointed and disconnected.

 

 I want to talk about the PSMD as it relates to decentralisation. To a large extent, the success of decentralisation will depend on how well the Public Service will be coordinated, remunerated and regulated. Decentralisation has brought quite a lot of issues in the manner that various Government departments are relating to each other. There is a big problem in drawing a line between who is senior and who is not. For example, we have council secretaries, council chairpersons and district commissioners at district level. All these people do not know who should preside over what and who should give directions about some things. So, the PSMD needs to see how best it can iron out this problem. Certain functions such as education, extension services, police and health have been devolved. All these are now under the local authority in our quest to decentralise. However, the work relationship among these functions is not going on very well and it is affecting service delivery. It is my hope and prayer that as we approve this budget, the PSMD will play a pivotal role in collaborating with other service commissions so that we can see a well coordinated, regulated and functioning Public Service.

 

My colleagues have alluded to the fact that some teachers have difficulty staying in rural areas. However, it is not only teachers. Even staff from the Ministry of Health who are posted to far-flung areas have difficulty staying there because of a number of reasons, which I do not want to delve into. My point is that decentralisation will not succeed if we allow it to continue being implemented the way it is being implemented.

 

Cabinet Office, Public Service Management Division and Teaching Service Commission needs to come together and deal with the issues head on. If they find that it is causing problems, they should find a solution. For example, there are situations where a medical doctor feels a council secretary is ill qualified and he cannot report to him. So, these things are real and they are a reality on the ground. Also, there are situations where the District Agricultural Co-ordinating Officer (DACO) feels he or she is more superior to the District Commissioner (DC) and therefore cannot be part and parcel of the local authority.

 

So, Madam Chairperson, it is important that as a country we ensure that decentralisation succeeds because it is good. However, we need to put our heads together in order to make it a reality.

 

Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

The Vice-President: Madam Chairperson, Public  Service Management Division (PSMD) has made some strides in improving the human resource in the Public Service.

 

The House has been informed about the continued programmes to facilitate training of civil servants upgrading their qualifications and competences. This is a good thing but should continue.

 

However, there are quite a number of issues that hon. Members raised and one of those is the issue of ghost workers. I am glad to inform the House that PSMD has increased payroll audits and this will be accelerated in 2017 to ensure that there are no gaps in the wage system.

 

Another issue that was raised relates to the job description for district commissioners and council chairpersons. As a matter of fact, PSMD is working on the job descriptions for district commissioners and mayors in order to put clarity to the two positions.

 

Regarding retirement in national interest, I wish to state that this issue has been raised before, but I can assure the House that no civil servant is retired on the basis of political affiliation or on the grounds of tribe.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kampyongo: Kanshi Mwali beshiba!

 

The Vice-President: What is done is merely to streamline government operations. However, Madam Chairperson, there should be reciprocity in these things. Civil servants are not expected to be partisan and we have said this before.

 

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

 

The Vice-President: It is expected that civil servants should be committed and be professional and that way, they will not face any difficulties. As for their political affiliation, I said even last week that civil servants are not expected to be affiliated to political parties.

 

With regards to retirement options, Madam Chairperson, the Division has started sensitisation programmes, to sensitise civil servants so that they understand options open to them. Whether to retire at age fifty-five, sixty or sixty-five and what goes with that option.

 

Hon. Dr Musokotwane dwelt a lot on rural teachers and other civil servants working in rural areas. Indeed, our people face challenges, especially those that work in remote rural areas, but the Division has already started implementing programmes under Payroll Management and Establishment Control (PMEC) to reach the rural teachers and other civil servants so that they are captured in the system at provincial level. The Division is trying now to reach out to district centres as well so that the civil service workers in those areas are also served.

 

Madam Chairperson, I am glad to note that the majority of contributors to this Vote are in support of the budget for PSMD. So, I thank you, and I expect all Members to support it fully.

 

Vote 27/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

Vote 27/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

Vote 27/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

Vote 27/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

Vote 27/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

Vote 27/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 38 – (Ministry of National Development Planning – K529,109,237)

 

The Minister of National Development Planning (Mr Mulusa): Thank you, Madam Chairperson, the Ministry of National Development Planning was created following the address by His Excellency the President of Zambia, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu to Parliament on 18^th September, 2015 and was initially placed under the Vice-President’s office.

 

Further, during the Official Opening of the First Session of the Twelve National Assembly on 30^th September 2016, the ministry was moved to the Office of the President.

 

Madam Chairperson, let me take this opportunity to thank Her Honour the Vice-President for the tremendous work done from inception, up to the time I took over. I feel honoured and privileged to take up tasks previously undertaken Her Honour the Vie-President. She, together with an excellent team assembled, did their work and did it well.

 

Madam Chairperson, the Ministry of Development Planning derives its mandate from the Government Gazette Notice No. 836 of 2016, as amended, that outlines its portfolio functions as national visioning, national development planning, regional planning, census and statistics, rural development, population policy, socio-economic modelling and forecasting, development coordination, public investment planning, project preparation and appraisal, monitoring and evaluation as well as coordination of climate change policy interventions.

 

Madam Chairperson, the Ministry of Development Planning is relatively new and in 2016 was preoccupied with developing structures to facilitate its smooth operations. The Ministry of Development Planning was created to promote synergies in the national planning processes, implement projects and programmes and strengthen monitoring and evaluation systems and coordination of national programmes. This was done with a view to promote a dynamic and strategically focused system of development that would help accelerate diversification and rapid growth of the economy. The Ministry of Development Planning, therefore, shall continue to work towards meeting strategic objectives of the Vision 2030 as a framework for achieving national development.

 

Madam Chairperson, in the medium-term, the Government is finalising the preparation of the Seventh National Development Plan which will run from 2017 to 2021 as a successor instrument to the Revised Sixth National Development Plan which ran from 2013 to 2016 and comes to an end this month. The Seventh National Development Plan is anchored on the integrated multi-sectoral development approach that is aimed at ensuring that Government institutions mutually reinforce each other in development processes by working as one entity with a view to achieve more with less while spreading development interventions evenly and equitably without leaving anyone behind, including Dundumwezi.

 

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mulusa: The plan will help reposition the country on the attainment of its desired goals as well as integrate domestic, regional and international initiatives such as the Sustainable Development Goals (SDGs) and the African Union’s Agenda 2063.

 

Madam Chairperson, in order to accelerate the development agenda of the country, the Ministry of Development Planning has proposed a Budget of K73.6 million. Hon. Members of this august House may wish to know that the proposed allocation to the ministry is very moderate. The key programmes are:

 

1. finalisation of the Seventh National Development Plan;

 

1. aligning the National Planning and Budgeting Bill to the provision of the 2016 Amended Constitution;

 

1. finalisation of the Rural Integrated Development Strategy;

 

1. implementation of the National Statistics Development Strategy of 2014;

 

1. implementation of the Government-wide monitoring and evaluation system;

 

1. implementation of the Project Appraisal Management System;

 

1. production of the Annual Development Coordination Report;

 

1. finalisation of the Revised Aid Policy and Strategy for Zambia;

 

1. implementation of the Demographic Dividend;

 

1. programming and financing for climate change initiatives from the Green Climate Fund and other resources under the National Designated Authority;

 

1. implementation of national climate change responsive strategies under the interim climate change secretariat; and

 

• policy analysis and research under the Zambia Institute for Policy Analysis and Research.

 

Madam Chairperson, the 2017 Budget Estimates for the Ministry of Development Planning are broken down as follows:

 

Human Resource and Administration Department

 

The human resource and administration department has been allocated a total of K23,454,191 million. Out of this amount K14,667,027 million is the proposed amount for the Zambia Institute for Policy Analysis and Research. The large portions of resources under the human resources and administration department amounting to K400,000 relate to servicing of utility bills and maintenance of the office building. Further, K550,000 is allocated to dismantling of arrears.

 

The Development Planning Department

 

The development planning department has been allocated K418,303,555 and out of this amount, K402,816,644 is the proposed amount for grant aided institutions which is broken down as follows:

 

1. K23,868,818 is proposed for the  National Designated Authority;

 

1. K347,992,826 is proposed for the interim climate change secretariat, which is now being mainstreamed within the Government as provided for in the National Climate Policy;

 

1. K20 million is proposed for contribution to the Green Climate Fund;

 

1. K8 million for national planning development coordination; and

 

1. K3 million for the Zambia Consensus Geographical Information System.

 

Madam Chairperson, the proposed amount for finalising and dissemination of the Seventh National Development Plan amounts to K750,000 and the alignment of National Planning and Budgeting Bill to the provisions of the 2016 Amended Constitution amounts to K550,000.

 

Central Statistics Office

 

The Central Statics Office has been allocated K77,054,340. It is mandated by the Census and Statistics Act of 1964, Cap. 127 of the Laws of Zambia to collect, compile and disseminate statistical data for informed decision making. The proposed allocation is broken down as follows:

 

1. K1,550,000 for the implementation of the National Statistical Development Strategy which was approved in 2014;

 

1. K2.5 million for implementation of the Labour Force Survey;

 

1. K16 million for the implementation of sample vital registration with verbal autopsy; and

 

1. K2,380,000 for generation of the Consumer Price Index.

 

Monitoring and Evaluation

 

Madam Chairperson, the proposed amount of K3,082,799 has been allocated to monitoring and evaluation. The Ministry of Development Planning has recognised that ineffective monitoring and evaluation systems have adversely affected the implementation of public programmes. In this regard, the department will develop a Government-wide monitoring and evaluation system to facilitate easy assessment of national policies, development plans and projects. K481,520 has been reserved for this activity. K600,000 has been allocated for production of progress reports and spot visits to selected programmes and project sites.

Public Investments Planning Department

 

The proposed amount for the public investments planning department is K2,540,366. Of this amount, K500,000 will be for the development of the public investment benchmarking exercise as well as undertaking phase one of the implementation of the Project Appraisal Management System.

 

Development Cooperation Department

 

Madam Chairperson, an allocation K2,435,376 has been proposed for the development cooperation department. K300,000 is for facilitating the coordination of development cooperation and the vision of the aid policy and strategy at a high level, both at bilateral and multi lateral levels, for support to national development and economic growth.

 

Population and Development Department

 

Madam Chairperson, the proposed allocation to population and development department is K2,238,610. This is a new department and the allocation of the K175, 000 is for the revision of the 2007 Population Policy to take into account emerging issues such as early marriages, HIV-Aids and other population factors. Further, the department will have to integrate population variables in all Government programmes considering that population is a catalyst as well as a beneficiary of development. A total of K126,000 is for coordination of sub-national data analysis under the Demographic Dividend Programme for informed decision making.

 

Madam Speaker, the PF Government is concerned with the low rate of rural development which lags behind to urban development. In this regard, the Government is in the process of developing the Integrated Rural Development Strategy whose objective is to address the development needs of rural areas. The strategy is to develop through the consultative process and will, among other things, identify areas of growth based on absolute advantage for rural areas, consolidate various sector initiatives targeting rural areas, bring rural development to the fore of national development and make rural areas attractive areas for private sector investment.

 

Note that the integrated rural development strategy is expected to be ready in 2017.

 

Madam Chairperson, let me conclude by stating that given the critical role that the ministry plays, especially in enhancing synergies in the planning and implementation processes by way of galvanising all institutions towards once common development agenda, I would like to call upon hon. Members of this august House to support our Budget proposal. The absence of a coordinating ministry has on several occasions been cited by development experts as a missing link in accelerating development in a manner that is inclusive and equitable. We, in Government will always consider national development plans as the main lead document to direct development which should be cascaded down into sector plans, provincial and district programmes and policies to an extent that our development interventions are not only consistent and predictable but are also well structured as we devolve and implement the national decentralisation policy.

 

Lastly, as hon. Members examine the line items, they should kindly note that they are likely to have one answer cutting across several lines due to the fact that the ministry is new and generally will consist of new provisions in some instances, without year on year comparisons. I wish to thank the hon. Members in anticipation of their favourable support.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, I want to thank the hon. Minister for the clear statement. I want to say that I support the 2017 Budget. My support of the Budget for the ministry will, in future years, depend on how the issues that I am going to raise now are going to be handled.

 

Madam Chairperson, I think this is the first time in many years that we are having a Budget for the planning function being presented to Parliament on a stand-alone basis. This does not mean that there was no planning function before. It was there. In fact, most of us perhaps my generation, will remember the days of the National Commission for Development Planning (NCDP), which was under the Office of the President then. That function shifted to the Ministry of Finance until it was taken to the Office of the Vice-President, just last year. Once again, it is more or less, a stand-alone ministry but as I understand, under the Office of the President.

 

Madam Chairperson, this is an institution that has been trying to find its feet, migrating here and there. It has been trying to find stability about where exactly it fits in the Government. There are implications for this, which I am going to come to. The experience of Zambia is not unique in that respect. In fact, from the 1970s to 1980s, most of the countries in the Southern African Development Community (SADC) region including the Common Market for Eastern and Southern Africa (COMESA), had stand-alone planning ministries, which with time, they began to fail. With time, we began to see a trend whereby, planning and financing were merged. In certain respects, planning was put under the Office of the Vice-President.

 

Now, what is the status of the play today? I just took a quick look at the Cabinet structures in the countries surrounding Zambia, the SADC region and a few of the COMESA countries, basically, the East African countries. From what we see there, is that in spite of the fact that about twenty to thirty years ago, most of these had planning ministries.

 

Madam Chairperson, as the situation stands today, Angola, Lesotho, Namibia, Swaziland, South Africa, Kenya and Zambia now, have stand-alone planning ministries. In Botswana, Tanzania, Zimbabwe, Malawi, Mauritius, Mozambique and Uganda the planning ministries are combined with the finance ministries.

 

Basically, out of the fourteen countries, seven have stand-alone planning ministries. The other seven are combined with the finance ministries. Why has there been this tussle? Why has there been this standing effort all the time to find a home of stability? There are two major reasons. The first one was that when they were stand-alone ministries, the planning ministries would establish a very big plan and take it to the finance ministries. They would give it to a minister responsible for finance who would take a look at that plan and have a very big laugh. He would say, “My friend, what do you think this is. You have planned for all these things but where do you think the money will come from? This is not realistic.” So, there would be a conflict.

 

Madam Chairperson, in the course of that conflict, what would normally happen is that finance and planning would be combined together all in the hope that they would give the planning office more authority. It would be put under the Office of the Vice-President or the Office of the President. Nevertheless, it is something that has created instability.

 

Madam Chairperson, the other problem is that as they plan, obviously they cannot run away from talking about sectors. Some of the sector ministers may come and say, “Ah, look at this man. Now he is planning for agriculture and tourism. He is interfering and yet, he does not understand tourism and livestock.” So, again, that was the source of conflict. What does this mean? 

 

What this means as we support this vote is that the ministry has to be mindful about the trends in Zambia and outside Zambia, that have led to this instability in the planning function. There are ways in which such issues must be dealt with. The fact that there are still seven countries out of fourteen which have separate arrangements, it that show that in fact, it is possible to have both ministries. However, this means that the hon. Minister must be aware of those sources of risks and conflicts. More importantly, the hon. Minister must have the skills of how these issues are going to be resolved. If not, I can almost assure him that history is going to repeat itself. The planning function is going to be swallowed up and that will be the end of it.

 

Madam Chairperson, if in the past few years, we have been moving forward without a stand- alone planning ministry, it means that in fact, there was money to be saved because any new ministry that is created such as this one, unfortunately, in the immediate, it takes away from development through salaries and allowances for permanent secretaries and directors. These are the things which take away from a possible school to be constructed in Liuwa. It takes away money from development. Any beaurocratic expansion does take money away from development.

 

For now, we can give up the developmental projects of schools and clinics because we hope that by allowing this ministry to come on board, the extra benefits that we are going to derive are going to swallow the costs that we are incurring now. That is the hope that we have. Obviously, if that does not happen and we do not see any benefits arising from the planning ministry and bearing in mind that for twenty to thirty years, we have been able to move forward and even make significant progress without this extra burden, I for one, in two to three years from now, will begin to question the relevance of this extra burden which is taking away resources for development.  

 

Madam Speaker, with this in mind, let me now talk about the people of Liuwa who sent me here. Obviously, we expect the hon. Minister to coordinate very good plans. We expect equity in the distribution of schools and health facilities so that the whole country can benefit.

 

Madam Chairperson, the planning that will make sense for Liuwa must deliver certain things. Our people must receive water pumps for irrigating their fields. I have said so many times that the ecology of Western Province is so delicate that even a small drought causes a disaster because even when we have water, it just sinks away into the sand. This results in hunger and we talk about relief food all the time. This needs to end. How will it end? There is need to provide money for irrigation.

 

Madam Chairperson, planning for us should ensure that our Liuwa National Park, in which the Government is always forbidding us to eat animals, will have a gravel road constructed so that we can have lodges and hotels established and, an alternative form of livelihood, away from eating animals, can be derived.

 

Madam Chairperson, we also expect, out of your planning process, the construction of the Kalabo to the Angolan Border Highway. I have said so many times before that by 2010, the money for this road was already organised. We do not understand why, five years later, it has not been constructed. A road to Kalabo is not an economic road. In fact, this shows that the Patriotic Front (PF) did not even understand what was going on as regards the Mongu/Kalabo Road although they were claiming it was their doing.  The road that will make sense is the one that will go all the way through to Angola. Only then will it truly become an economic road that will facilitate trade between Angola and ourselves and, Angolans will not import chicken, maize and vegetables from Brazil as they do now, but will import from Zambia.

 

Madam Chairperson, we expect the water canals to be cleared.

 

Madam Chairperson, we expect schools and classrooms to be built and teachers to be provided so that our children can become as intelligent as their parents and grandparents used to be. The Libonda High School which was abandoned by this Government in the last five years should be completed.

 

Madam Chairperson, if those things are done for us in Liuwa, we will say that the Ministry of National Development and Planning is of some meaning to us because it would have delivered. If you do not do these things, we are going to say that it is just another bureaucracy which, in fact, has taken away from us. If this happens, I will not support its Budget three years from now. We are going to disband it. For now, we support the hon. Minister and wish him the best.

 

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Prof. Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Madam Chairperson, I also stand to support the Budget. Like my colleague stated, in supporting the Budget, there are quite a number of issues to raise for the attention of the hon. Minister.

 

Madam Chairperson, first of all, it is good to hear that this ministry will focus on the resurrection of the Vision 2030. This is very important because a lot of effort went into the establishment and development of that vision, which we have not heard much about over the last five years.

 

A number of our sister countries have their own visions which they are following religiously. I think we should not lose sight of our Vision 2030.

 

Madam Chairperson, the ministry under discussion is very critical in the sense that in addition to the vision, it is this ministry that the four Ps ought to be housed that is policy, planning programming and projects which are central to our development efforts. The challenge which I think we all ought to be addressing very seriously is that the development paradigm which we have been following since 1964 has been of great disappointment to the greater majority of our people. Most of us here represent people who live in the country side in rural areas. I think for the great majority of us when we tour our respective rural constituencies, most of them are still they way they were in 1964. Very few of our rural constituencies have seen changes over the past fifty years. The greater majority of our people are asking the question, what has gone on over the past fifty years? What development impact has taken place in their midst? People cannot find reasonable answers to those questions and that is the challenge of the development paradigm that we have been following over the last fifty years. That paradigm has not touched most of our people. It is now time to shift, to rethink the paradigm especially as look to 2063. What should be our focus over the next forty-seven years? Many of us will not be there in 2063. We will not be there, we will be gone.

 

Mr Ngulube: Where?

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: Maybe one or two younger Members of Parliament who might be too old in forty-seven years…

 

Laughter

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: The question we should be asking ourselves is what foundation are we laying down so that in 2063 when our grand children will be in this House, and reviewing the efforts we have made to improve Zambia, they would say, yes, there were men and women, in this House who were able to think positively about the development challenges of our country and they laid the foundation for us.

 

Madam Chairperson that rethinking over the next forty-seven years must be a rethinking which focuses on transformation as our agenda for improving the quality of life of our people. That transformation entails, one, that we should not only focus on policy, or plans or programmes but we should lay more emphasis on what is happening at the project level, the interface between a project and the community. For example, if we have established a primary or secondary school in a particular locality, what observable improvements in the quality of life of our people can we see, measure, evaluate, or assess. Has that school been able to contribute to the improvements in literacy levels? Has the school been able to contribute to productivity? Has that school been able to contribute to acquisition of more knowledge and skills? Has that school been able to impact on infant mortality and so on at the community level?

 

That is the transformation which we ought to be placing more emphasis on and the monitoring and evaluation which the ministry should be undertaking and equally be concerned about the equitable distribution of projects.

                                                                                       

Mr Nkombo: Hear, hear!

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: For example, if we have 2,000 boreholes in the Budget, the question is where are those boreholes going to be sunk in the country as a whole? If we have money set aside for schools, the question is where are the schools going to be constructed and what impact will they have? If we have money for feeder roads, where are those feeder roads being constructed? Are we making an impact in transforming the quality of life of the people on the countryside? I think this is very important. The transformative agenda should be the new ideology …

 

Hon. UPND Members: Tell them!

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: … as we move to 2063. This is what Africa is looking up to and the hon. Minister knows that very well after having been at the Pan African Parliament (PAP). He knows that many of our people are disappointed with the state with which Africa is in. So, over the next forty-seven years, we are looking at what is happening at the continental, regional, country, provincial, district, constituency, world and village levels and it is our responsibility as hon. Members of Parliament, first of all,to demand for equitable …

 

Mr Nkombo: Hear, hear!

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: … allocation of the projects of any kind. As we go through the sectors, we shall be quizzing the hon. Ministers to indicate to us, for example, on projects on tractors …

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: … boreholes or health and if they will make an impact in our constituencies. That is their responsibility and over the next five years we want to see data coming from the Ministry of Development Planning informing us, for example, on how well we are doing as a nation in the transformative agenda, improving the quality of life of our people, especially in the rural areas and narrowing the gap between the urban and rural areas. We shall closely monitor theintegrated rural strategy programme that they will embark on to see whether it will actually impact on our people. We are not only going to celebrate to see a road being constructed, but the impact of that road, for example, on productivity will be very important.So, give the ministry a very clear vision in terms of national development so that it can make very significant impact on the development efforts. The hon. Ministerof Development Planning should question the development agenda that has taken place so far which has been a disappointment for the greater majority of our people. He should also question his colleagues in terms of how they are allocating development projects throughout the country.

 

Madam Chairperson a Budget is like a cocktail. There are some people who are invited to a cocktail and they actually take the entire five litres of wine to themselves and run away with it.  When you take the whole five litres of wine, what about others? These things happen even here.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: Madam Chairperson, even after discussing matters of integrity, we still see people walking away with five litres of wine without thinking about others. So, hon. Minister, you must keep a bird’s eye view on your colleagues to see how fair and just they are. You should see whether they are distributing development projects equitably and fairly to every part of the country the way we used to. You know that.

 

Hon. Government Members: Question!

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: Madam Chairperson, those who are saying question were not here. When we presented the Ministry of Education Budget, each Member of Parliament would have a copy of how the money would be spent. They would look for schools in their respective constituencies.

 

Hon. Opposition members: Hear, hear!

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: That is what we need to see. Whenever the Ministry of Gender presented its Budget, we would all see that there were two hammer mills going to each constituency. That is what we want to see happen.

 

Mr Nkombo: Not drinking Overmeer alone.

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: Do not drink Overmeer alone.

 

Hon. Opposition members: Hear, hear!

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: Madam Chairperson, you must make sure that Nalikwanda also gets a share of that cocktail. We want to see the Nakanya/Namushakende Road constructed. That is equity. We want to see electricity in the rural areas rising from 5 per cent to something higher. That way, our people in the rural areas can also benefit. The hon. Minister has a challenge to ensure that we are on course in terms of how we are transforming our country and how we are touching the lives of every individual in various parts of the country. Let development not be segmented, for example in the urban areas alone. Let us see that development is distributed equitably throughout the country. This is very important, and so, we must make sure that we transform the country and touch lives for the good of every citizen of this country.

 

I thank you, madam.

 

Dr Kalila (Lukulu East): Madam Chairperson, thank you for granting me an opportunity to make some comments on the Budget for the Ministry of National Development and Planning. As you know, I am a man of few words and so, I will try my best to keep to that tag.

 

Madam Chairperson, it is said that failure to plan is planning to fail. It is for that reason that I support the establishment of this very important ministry just as my two colleagues, Hon. Dr Musokotwane and Hon. Prof Lungwangwa have done.

 

Madam Chairperson, in order to come up with a national development framework, it is always important to take into account the various parameters that constitute a particular nation or estate. In this particular case, the natural resources of a particular country, the human capital, which is the greatest resource of any nation, and of course, the education of such or individuals that subsist in that particular nation. You cannot come up with any meaningful plan without taking into consideration the population dynamics.

 

Equally important is the health of the citizens. You all know that a sick population can never contribute meaningfully to any national development. Apart from this, you need a very robust information and statistics system. More importantly, however, is that your plans must be aligned to the national economic priorities of the particular Government in power.

 

Madam Chairperson, having said this, I do note that all these parameters seem to have been taken into consideration in the hon. Minister’s policy statement. The idea is to put all these parameters, including the international development frameworks such as the Sustainable Development Goals (SDGs) and the African Union (AU) Agenda 2063, together. Put all these parameters together so that you come up with a national development agenda. In other words, we expect this ministry to craft for us the direction in which this country should go in order to transform it from a resource poor or poor nation to a prosperous one.

 

I have come to learn today that the Seventh National Development Plan (7^th NDP) is just about to come on board. We have not yet seen it but our hope is that it will contain or look at all these parameters including, more importantly, the manner in which we craft our Budget. I have seen that a budget and planning process under this ministry has been put in the Yellow Book. I still feel that the manner in which we craft our Budget cannot pull us out of poverty. If at all it does, it will take a long time because of the same model of thinly spreading our resources across all sectors.

 

Mr Nkombo: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Kalila: The result of this has been that when we have a resource envelope, we want to do everything at a go. Some programmes will start in August, which is three months before another Budget cycle then nothing gets achieved. I expect that this ministry, in crafting the manner in which we do our Budget, will take a strategic focus or approach to look at priorities. In the case of the Patriotic Front (PF), they want to prioritise agriculture, tourism and industrialisation and I expect that when we allocate these resources we will try and allocate more to priority areas for a longer time, as opposed to spreading them thinly and in the end doing very little.

Having said this, I also expect that as soon as the 7^th NDP is launched, the next major task for this ministry will be to monitor and evaluate the programmes related to this development plan. For me, therefore, the function of this ministry is simply to craft for us a national development path and to monitor the processes to achieve it. In short, therefore, this ministry is just a think tank and I do not expect it to have a huge budget or too many programmes as I have seen in this Yellow Book.

 

Hon. UPND: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Kalila: In short, we have already started on a slightly wrong note. 

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Kalila: This is what Hon. Dr Musokotwane was trying to say. He was saying that the danger that this ministry will have is to conflict with other ministries. I will give you two examples on duplication. There is an agriculture unit set up in this ministry whose primary task is simply to collect agricultural related statistics. This, however, is already being done by the Ministry of Agriculture. Hon. Minister, perhaps you will give us a clear explanation.

 

Madam Chairperson, climate change mitigation programmes have been shifted to this ministry and yet we have the Ministry of Water Development, Sanitation and Environmental Protection.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Kalila: So, we have already started on a slightly wrong note.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

 

Dr Kalila: This is going to be in conflict with the other ministries. The way I understood it is that all these ministries are supposed to call all the sectors and say guys, we think that this is the way to go.

 

Madam First Chairperson: Order!

 

The word ‘guys’ is unparliamentary.

 

Dr Kalila: Once they all agree, …

 

I am sorry, Madam, Chairperson. I wish withdraw the word ‘guys’ and replace it with ‘colleagues.’

 

Laughter

 

Dr Kalila: Madam, I was saying that the all these ministries are supposed to call all the sectors and tell them that colleagues, this is the way we are going to proceed. Once they have all put their efforts together, the next thing is simply monitors their programmes. If you look at the budget for the these ministries, you will find that more than K529 million has been combined with the budgets for the ministries of Tourism and Arts, Youth, Sport and Child Development and also the Ministry of Works and Supply, but even after adding them together, the total head for the new ministry is not adding up. So, we need to re-look at the way we have crafted the operations of this ministry. Otherwise, the idea is good and I support, it but I think we have started on a wrong note. Since I am a man of few words, I just wanted to bring that to the attention of my colleagues in Government.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Hon UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kopulande (Chembe): Madam Chairperson, I would like to thank you for giving me this opportunity to comment on this budget.

 

Madam, while I am supporting the budget as presented, I have concerns, which I follow and agree with the debate by Hon. Dr Kalila who has just been on the Floor.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kopulande: Madam, the point that Hon. Dr Kalila talked about this ministry is a succinct because this is ministry is a coordinator of development plans from various functional departments, and therefore, cannot have specific functional department.

 

Madam Chairperson, I have looked at the numbers and I am concerned with programme called ‘events’. The Events Programme has an astronomical of K830,000 allocated to it and beats the functional responsibility of the ministry particularly the Central Statistical Office, which is a key function of a planning ministry.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kopulande:  Madam, getting data from the Central Statistics Office has been a frustrating experience. You cannot get date that is disaggregated at a functional usable level. The data that we have cannot even give us any trend analysis because you have to start reconstructing the data in order to understanding what has been happening over the years and, therefore, you are put in a position, where  you cannot even project the future because the data is not sufficiently reported.

 

Madam Chairperson, the demographic data is not always available. For instance, you cannot go and ask for the population of the new districts that have been created because it has not been compiled. For example, if you are looking for trade data, you can go and ask how many Toyota cars were imported from Japan last year, you would find that the data is not available. If you go to other Government departments, you cannot even tell how much activity in a particular economic sector has been taking place.

 

In my view, this is where this ministry should be focusing on because it will then use that data to coordinate all the other functioning ministries to develop a plan for directing the development of this country. This is what we would like to see.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kopulande: I am concerned when I look at the numbers in the budget for this ministry. For instance, there is an activity under the Central Statistical Office (CSO) for the trade fair and shows which has been allocated K300,000. What will this money be spent on? Is it buying suits for the people in the ministry? Total expenditure for events under the CSO is K830,000. What is this money going to be used for? It is sad when you compare that expenditure to the core activity of collecting and disseminating data. Printing and data dissemination by the CSO has only been allocated K200,000.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kopulande: I think we need to re-look at our approach in this particular ministry. The creation of this ministry is a noble intention. The intention of this ministry is to bring about a coordinated approach to development planning for this country and we have been dying for this function.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kopulande: When it was created, we expected a lot and therefore, we expect to see a serious strategic vision being driven from this ministry for the whole country’s development.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kopulande: Madam Chairperson, when I look at the figures under this Vote, I have serious worries because it appears, like Dr Kalila said, that there has been encroachment on other functional ministries. Further, there is a lot of expenditure that has been allocated to what I would call entertainment.

 

Interruptions

 

The First Chairperson: Order, hon. Members!

 

I do not understand the excitement. He is just debating.

 

Interruptions

 

The First Chairperson: Allow him to debate and conclude.

 

Mr Kopulande: Madam Chairperson, I think there is too much resource that has been allocated to entertainment of staff in the ministry, which must be going towards performing the key functions, particularly in the CSO. I think the hon. Minister of this important ministry must go out and revamp the operations of the CSO. Currently, the data that this institution releases is too old in most cases. You cannot use it when you want to use it. You have to start doing your own arithmetic. Internationally, data is desegregated in a particular way that it is easily usable for planning and analysis of national activities. So while I support the budget for this ministry, I have those concerns that I have raised.

 

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mulusa: Madam Chairperson, I wish to thank all those hon. Members of Parliament who have contributed to this debate, including those who always debate but the only thing they could say today is “hear, hear”, over a vote which is very important and for which they were sent to this Parliament by their various constituencies. I think I am a little bit disappointed that …

 

Interruptions

 

The First Chairperson: Hon. Minister, please, just wind-up debate.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Mulusa: Madam Chairperson …

 

The First Chairperson: Order!

 

(Debate adjourned)

 

__________

 

HOUSE RESUMED

 

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

 

(Progress reported)

 

__________ 

 

The House adjourned at 1958 hours until 1430 hours on Wednesday, 7^th December, 2016.