Debates - Thursday, 25th February, 2016

Printer Friendly and PDF

Thursday, 25th February, 2016

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

__________

MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

UPDATE ON UPGRADE OF UNPLANNED SETTLEMENTS

The Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr Kampyongo): Mr Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity to update the House and the nation on the upgrading of unplanned settlements popularly referred to as shanty compounds.

Sir, the 2010 Central Statistical Office (CSO) census indicate that more than 40 per cent of Zambia’s population is living in urban areas and more than 60 per cent of the population is living in unplanned settlements popularly known as shanty compounds. This is posing numerous challenges to the Government in terms of providing proper planning, decent housing, and basic services such as water supply, sanitation, access roads, solid waste and drainage management systems that are environmentally friendly. To address this challenge, my ministry successfully enacted the Urban and Regional Planning Act, 2015, which allows planning authorities to legalise the existing unplanned settlements. The planning authorities have also been mandated to plan for these settlements and provide basic infrastructure services such as water supply, sanitation, access roads, drainage and solid waste management systems. The legalisation of the shanty compounds will foster the security of land tenure through renewable title from thirty to ninety years leasehold. This will empower the settlers to build, use or sell some pieces of land for housing and other development projects. Furthermore, the legalisation of these settlements will contribute to the upgrading of housing structures and promote private sector investments. A good example is the development of private property which is taking place in areas like Kalingalinga Township. 

Mr Speaker, all the planning authorities have been urged to be proactive in developing and implementing local area plans that will discourage unplanned settlements and foster investments through co-ordinated mixed land use and possible compact developments that will take the municipal services closer to the people. 

Sir, the country has seen the developments that are taking place in most unplanned settlements, especially those that are near the central business districts (CBDs) such as Kalingalinga, Misisi, Kanyama, Chaisa, Chipata, Garden, and Chibolya areas in Lusaka. These settlements are growing at a fast rate and are located in prime areas which have high land value. I have accordingly directed the local authorities to effectively enforce the Town and Country Planning Act in order to promote the orderly development of structures in these settlements throughout the country. 

Mr Speaker, my ministry is in the process of reviewing the 1996 National Housing Policy so that it can be in tandem with the current trends in issues relating to urbanisation, urban development and housing. My ministry has also developed the Slum Upgrading Strategy, which will guide local authorities to upgrade the existing unplanned settlements with the provision of basic infrastructure services. Currently, the ministry is in the process of implementing a pilot project of upgrading some wards in Kanyama Settlement, with basic services such as water supply, sanitation, access roads, street lighting, drainage and solid waste management systems, among others. 

Sir, when funds are made available, the ministry plans to implement the Urban Renewal Project, which will focus on regeneration, re-development and renewal of the unplanned settlements in the major cities and towns in the entire country. This will allow the Government to re-plan and re-zone the settlements and maximise the utilisation of the existing land to house the existing settlers in multi-storey housing units and then utilise the remaining land for medium and high cost housing projects for outright purchase and rent. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the ministerial statement given by the hon. Minister. 

Mr Muchima (Ikeleng’i): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister’s ministerial statement is very progressive. I want him to make an assurance that there will be money allocated to implement all the programmes he has mentioned and also give a roadmap regarding the upgrading of these unplanned settlements. Also, is he going to start with the unplanned settlements in the rural areas or those in urban areas like Lusaka? If he is going to start with those in Lusaka, how does he intend to carry out the programme? What we now want to see is a clear roadmap for the upgrading of the unplanned settlements since the hon. Minister has given us a lot of promises.

   Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, we are all aware that most of the unplanned settlements are in urban areas because of the rural-urban drift. These came about because there was no planning. People just gave each other portions of land. 

Sir, the old Town and Country Planning Act of 1962 only required an hon. Minister to recognise the settlements through a Statutory Instrument (SI). Services to these areas were only taken after people had settled in the areas. This has posed a challenge. We all know what is obtaining in Lusaka, for instance. When you leave the central business district, the next stop is an unplanned settlement.  

Sir, in 1998, this very august House directed the Ministry of Local Government and Housing to start managing areas 300 m off Kafue Road to try to preserve the entrance to the central business district which was an eyesore with slums on both sides of the road. This has led to the development that we are currently witnessing now by private developers. 

Mr Speaker, my question is: How do we deal with the rest of the slums which have remained, bearing in mind that we have to take care of the existing interests or the people who have settled there? We can buy the land off these people, but they will soon be looking for another unplanned settlement. When they get that money, they will find another area because they will not go to the village. That cannot be a long lasting solution. This is why we want a comprehensive policy that will take care of the existing interests.

Mr Speaker, with regard to finances, we will ensure that we create an environment for private sector participation. This is why I said that the value of that land is certainly guaranteed. Most of the people who are staying in these areas have got no title deeds. Thus, these people have no negotiating power. However, with this Act in place, we shall allow these people to have, at least, title deeds which will allow them to negotiate such that when these developments are happening, compensation is reasonable. Further, they will be factored in, in terms of the provision of decent housing facilities. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Mr Speaker, certain townships in rural areas have emerged because of the land that chiefs are giving away and the councils have no say on that. How is the hon. Minister going to handle the issues surrounding the land which is being given by chiefs? 

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, townships which seat on customary land in rural areas have also been factored into our planning. Under the Act, local authorities are mandated to get into these areas and plan because they are the ones which will be providing services to these areas. 

Sir, as regard to working with the traditional leadership, the approach will be different.  As opposed to the old Town and Country Planning Act of 1962 Act, which only required an hon. Minister to recognise these settlements through an SI in order for local authorities to move in and deal with these areas, this Act has given a mandate for them to plan for such areas.

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Mooya (Moomba): Mr Speaker, my question is on the review of the 1996 Housing Policy. If I am not wrong, this has been talked about for so many years now. When will the policy, which is key, be reviewed and given to us? 

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, I want to thank the senior engineer for that question. The policy in question has been under consideration for quite some time. I want to assure the hon. Member that we have made a lot of progress. The Zambia Institute of Planners (ZIP), which participated in the revision of this Act presented its report to my office last week. We have further requested the new board of the Zambia National Housing Authority to speed up the revision of the Act. 

Sir, as the hon. Member may recall, His Excellency the President, during his address to the nation and this august House, instructed the Ministry of Local Government and Housing to make sure that the National Housing Policy was revised. This is because the Act which is in place is based on a commandist economy which led to the Government taking centre stage in terms of the provision of housing to our people. 

Mr Speaker, I thank you. 

Mr Mtolo (Chipata Central): Mr Speaker, in his statement, the hon. Minister said that some areas here in Lusaka will be attended to through a pilot project. I wish that he had given a more elaborate time frame so that we can be able to measure the effectiveness of this idea. 

Sir, as we proceed and replace what is termed as “not very good development” with “better development,” of which the hon. Minister gave Kalingalinga as an example, what measures has the Government put in place to protect Zambians from their land literally being taken over by foreigners who have more financial capacity? We would like to have some certainty that we will not have a line of shops, from the filling station at Kalingalinga to the Mass Media Complex, owned by foreigners. What measures has the Government put in place to protect the interests of the Zambians? 

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, the first measure is the Act that we have already put in place. It prescribes what needs to be done. The role of the Government is basically to protect the existing interests of our people. This is why I am saying that we should create value on the land found in certain areas. Right now, the only value that these people have is the shelter that they have put on that land, but the land has no value because they do not have security of tenure for it.

Sir, our role is to make sure that there is value for the pieces of land which people currently occupy. The private sector can buy off the land from the people as a form of compensation. To make that possible, the Ministry of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection can issue provisional letters of offer to the people. Unfortunately, if we did things that way, we may end up creating another problem because at the end of the day when the people collect that money, they will find another place where they will create an unplanned settlement. 

Sir, we want to make sure that we take care of the existing interests, and that is the people. I mentioned that we are starting with some wards in Kanyama. Another place which we are targeting is the infamous Chibolya Compound. Nobody will be thrown out in the cold. The structures will be high-rise flats to cater for the people who will be displaced so that we can create more space for commercial use by the private sector.  

I thank you, Sir.  

Mr Namulambe (Mpongwe): Mr Speaker, legalisation regarding the unplanned settlements is going to pose a challenge considering the fact that there are people who have stayed in those localities, some without security of tenure, for a long period of time. I have in mind those in Makululu Compound in Kabwe who even have wells and pit latrines. Once city planning is done, some houses will be discovered to fall in areas where roads are supposed to be built. What will happen to the people who will be affected by the planned zoning?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, we have been working on the ring roads which pass through areas like Kanyama and Misisi compounds. It is expensive to take development into some of these areas because you have to factor in the aspect of compensation which sometimes amounts to colossal sums of money. For example, compensation of about K64 million was paid out to residents just to construct the roads through Misisi Compound. Similarly, we will not disadvantage the people while planning for the development of similar areas. There are people who have built beautiful houses in the shanty compounds, but have no security of tenure. They cannot insure those properties or get loans using them because they have no documentation. We are trying to empower these people. 

Mr Speaker, the people whose houses will be destroyed in areas that will be identified for social amenities like roads and schools will be compensated. Look at how happy people in Kalingalinga are because pit latrines have been replaced by modern toilets. Our mission is to improve the lives of our people economically.

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Kazabu (Nkana): Mr Speaker, now that the Urban and Regional Planning Act is in place, are there plans to establish regional landfills to ensure the proper management of solid waste in order to avoid situations like the one at the Chunga Landfill, where we have some of our people living just adjacent to it? 

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, that will be one of the areas which we are going to focus on. The situation that we are in leaves much to be desired. We cannot have people living next to landfills. That is why we are looking at the possibility of constructing properly engineered landfills.

Sir, the hon. Member of Parliament for Mandevu has been complaining about how people have built houses around sewerage dams. There was no planning at the time they were constructing those structures. This is putting the people’s health at risk. These are the kinds of issues we need to avoid as we progress towards a modern Zambia. 

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Kalila (Lukulu East): Mr Speaker, given the fact that there are immense challenges in re-planning our cities, Lusaka in particular, and in a quest to create sustainable cities, is the Government planning to shift the City of Lusaka to Kafue or Chongwe as has happened in other countries such as Malawi and Nigeria?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, like I said the other day, we are fighting the illegal land allocations in order to create an environment for the Act, which we have put in place, to be enforced. If we do not halt the illegalities now, it will be very difficult to implement this policy. People are in search of land without concern about the other services which are needed as a result of the growth of the population. 

Sir, the zoning of multi-facility economic zones is meant to decongest the central business districts by moving certain economic activities. 

I thank you, Sir.

DEPLOYMENT OF MORE POLICE OFFICERS TO SOUTHERN PROVINCE

The Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Mwila): Mr Speaker, Hon. Jack Mwiimbu, Member of Parliament for Monze Central, raised a point of order on Tuesday this week alleging that a state of emergency had been declared in Monze. I wish to state that no state of emergency has been declared in Monze or anywhere else in Zambia. 

Sir, in the recent past, I have delivered two ministerial statements on the political violence which occurred in Choma and Bweengwa in the Southern Province. In the statements, the Government appealed for a peaceful conduct of political activities. It seems that the appeal has not been accepted by some quarters. For example, the violence in Bweengwa was planned and executed by political elements with the aim of intimidating people with different political views from their own. The Zambia Police Force decided to deploy eighty-three police officers to the Southern Province to reinforce the officers who are based there. This measure is not unique to the Southern Province because it is a common law enforcement practice. It is aimed at ensuring that the police contain any elements with the intention of disrupting peace and good public order. 

Mr Speaker, allow me to conclude my statement by making yet another appeal for the peaceful conduct of politics in Zambia as a whole, and the Southern Province in particular. The police, in line with their mandate, shall deal very firmly with all cases of political violence without fear or favour.

Sir, it is in the interest of all political players to promote peace because violence makes people lose interest in public affairs. A lack of peace reduces political participation and cannot, therefore, be tolerated in a country which upholds the rule of law such as Zambia. All of us here, therefore, must work and support the police officers in their noble duty of protecting lives and property and, indeed, maintaining peace and good public order.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the statement given by the hon. Minister of Home Affairs.

Dr Kalila: Mr Speaker, we have been informed that eighty-three police officers have been deployed to the Southern Province. Where exactly in the Southern Province were the police officers deployed?

Mr Mwila: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member of Parliament who raised the point order specifically referred to Monze. We have sent eighty-three officers to Monze District.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, in his response, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs has singled out Southern Province as an area where they will specifically deal with perpetrators of violence.

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: Yes!

Mr Speaker: Order! 

Please, continue, hon. Member.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, in my point of order, I had also raised the issue of the Zambia Police Force occupying classrooms which are supposed to be used by pupils in Monze. The hon. Member did not talk about that issue in his statement. I also want him to address the issues surrounding the selective application of the law. We are aware that a lot of our people in Sinda were brutalised by the Patriotic Front (PF) cadres and no officer of the Zambia Police Force was sent there.

Mr Speaker, in Vubwi, …

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: … a similar incident happened involving journalists and members of the United Party for National Development (UPND) who were brutalised by the PF cardres. The hon. Minister did not send any battalion of the Zambia Police Force to that area. Why is this Government targeting the people of the Southern Province as the hon. Minister has said in his statement, without taking similar measures in situations where PF cadres have been involved in violence?

Mr Mwila: Sir, when the hon. Member of Parliament raised the point of order, he specifically referred to Monze. That is the reason I have focused on Monze. There are other places where we have sent police officers which I have not mentioned because I did not want to open a Pandora’s box. That is the reason I have concentrated on Monze. I have stated on the Floor of the House that there is no state of emergency. I cannot comment on the other issue which has been raised by the hon. Member because I still need to find out where the officers are staying, whether it is at a primary school or secondary school. 

Mr Speaker, we are not selective in the application of justice. I have said in my statement that where we are going to have incidences of violence, we are going to send the police. Our role as a ministry is to ensure that law and order is maintained. I want to assure the hon. Member of Parliament for Monze Central that as at now, Monze is very peaceful.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Speaker, I believe that the hon. Minister knows the areas which are found in the Southern Province. Bweengwa is surrounded by villages. That is where we are told there was a fracas. Why did this Government find it necessary to send police officers to camp in Monze town and occupy schools where there was no violence of any kind?  

Mr Mwila: Mr Speaker, Bweengwa falls under Monze District where these officers are. I want to inform this House that the five party cadres who were arrested due to the violence which happened in Bweengwa were from Monze.  

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Livune (Katombola): Mr Speaker, in the statement, the hon. Minister said that now Monze Central peaceful. When will the police officers leave Monze?

Mr Mwila: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member of Parliament for Katombola has no right to direct us to move the police officers from Monze. We will decide when it is necessary.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Hon. Minister, let me just intervene. The hon. Member for Katombola is not issuing any directive. He simply sought to find out when the withdrawal of the police officers will be made in light of the peaceful state of affairs. That is all.  He did not give any directive.

Mr Mwila: Mr Speaker, we will decide to move the police officers from there when it is necessary.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Hamududu (Bweengwa): Mr Speaker, the police confirmed in our meeting in Monze that the incident lasted for barely two hours. We were also told that there was no abduction and that the issue was being blown out of proportion. 

Interruptions

Mr Hamududu: Sir, the actions by the Ministry of Home Affairs were out of misinformation. I went there and found that the place was peaceful. Does the hon. Minister not agree with me that they should use information which is correct when taking action instead of incorrect information which resulted in their being heavy handed in dealing with the people of Bweengwa and Monze, in general?

Mr Mwila: Mr Speaker, first and foremost, I did not attend that meeting. So, I am not aware of what was discussed. Secondly, I informed this House that we have instituted investigations and five people have been arrested. The matter is in court. Thus, I cannot comment further on the matter.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Speaker, my question is related to an issue which was raised by the hon. Member of Parliament for Monze Central reminding the hon. Minister that what is good for the goose should be also good for the gander as he was talking about the seemingly selective application of justice by the ministry.  In Kafue, which is 45 km from Lusaka, a Patriotic Front (PF) cadre dismembered someone’s ear. This particular matter is in public domain and one PF cadre is now in the police cells. Congratulations, hon. Minister.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 Mr Nkombo: Sir, does the hon. Minister have in his possession the medical report of those who were attacked in the Bweengwa fracas?

Mr Mwila: Mr Speaker, details regarding our police officers and the media personnel who were attacked by the alleged United Party for National Development (UPND) cadres in Bweengwa are in public domain. 

Sir, I want to emphasise that when it comes to applying the law, we are not selective, but very fair.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 Mr Mufalali (Senanga): Mr Speaker, a journalist from The Post was attacked by Patriotic Front (PF) cadres who included a well-known youth chairperson. Actually, the youth leader went further and urinated in the mouth of the journalist.

 Hon. UPND Members: Ah!

 Mr Mufalali: Sir, up to now, the police has not taken any action.   

Sir, the hon. Minister …

Mr Kambwili: On a point of order, Sir.

 Mr Speaker: No, I will not allow points of order. 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear! 

Mr Speaker: Please, continue, hon. Member.

 Mr Mufalali: Sir, who misinformed the hon. Minister about the fracas which happened somewhere in Bweengwa to make him send a battalion to Monze which has always been peaceful?

 Mr Mwila: Mr Speaker, two issues have been raised. The first is that it is alleged that suspected political party cadres attacked a radio station. I want to inform the House that one political party cadre has been arrested and is appearing in court. Secondly, all of us know about the two incidents which happened in the Southern Province. In Choma, alleged UPND cadres stoned motorists. Apart from that, there was an attack in Bweengwa by suspected UPND cadres. The role of the police is to maintain law and order. What has been happening in the Southern Province is what prompted the deployment of police officers to Monze.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Antonio (Kaoma Central): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has informed us that five people have been arrested in Monze. I want to know why the ministry is still keeping eighty-five police officers in that area, yet only five people were arrested.

 Mr Mwila: Mr Speaker, I said that the five people who were arrested are now appearing in court. In the last ministerial statement, I mentioned that the Bweengwa incident happened around 1900. The police will only leave the area once they are convinced that it is peaceful.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mrs Masebo (Chongwe): Mr Speaker, from the outset, I want to put it on record that any form of violence must be condemned by the Government, political parties and all the citizens at large. 

Sir, from last year when we started hearing about reports of violence, this is the first time we are witnessing deployment of a battalion of policemen. Does the hon. Minister not think that the continued stay of the police officers in that area is actually aggravating the situation, which is supposed to be a closed issue?

 Mr Speaker: Order! 

 I am just wondering whether the term ‘battalion’ is not supposed to be associated with a certain art. It seems to be used liberally. 

 Mr Mwila: Mr Speaker, the power to decide to deploy police officers to a certain area belongs to the Police Command. It is the Police Command which decided to send police officers to Monze to ensure that all the citizens in area are protected. 

Sir, again, I want to take this opportunity to warn that whoever will be involved in any violent activities will be visited by the police who will ensure that the law takes its course.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

_____

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

REFERENDUM

330. Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central) asked the Minister of Justice:

(a)    what progress had been made on the holding of the referendum, to amend the Bill of Rights, simultaneously with the General Elections on the 11th August, 2016; and

(b)    whether the public had been educated on the referendum, considering that such an exercise had not been held in Zambia in a long time.

The Deputy Minister in the Vice-President’s Office (Mr Bwalya) (on behalf of the Minister of Justice (Dr Simbyakula)): Mr Speaker, I want to inform the House that the Ministry of Justice has been engaging the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) regarding the modalities of holding the referendum alongside the General Elections on 11th August, 2016. The ministry has been engaging with the Central Statistical Office (CSO) in order to determine the best method of sampling the population in the absence of a full scale census since the last census was conducted less than ten years ago and the elective date from the census and other surveys that are conducted by the CSO are sufficient to enable the Government to estimate the number of the people eligible to participate in a referendum. The use of sampling various sampling methods for the determination of populations is provided for under Sections 6 and 8 of the Census and Statistics Act, which provide as follows:    

“6.    (1)    A census shall be taken on such a day in any year as the Minister may fix by Census Gazette notice.

    (2)    The census shall be taken −

(a)    of the number of persons or of any class of persons within Zambia or any part thereof; and

(b)    of such other particulars whatsoever; as shall be prescribed.

8.    The Director may, if he deems fit, use sampling methods in the taking of any census in terms of section six, or in the collection of statistics in terms of sub-sections (1) and (2) of section seven.”

Mr Speaker, the Government has also been engaging with various co-operating partners with the view to assisting in the financing of the referendum. The Ministry of Justice is in the process of determining the modalities of publicising the proposed Bill of Rights, Article 79 of the Constitution and the provisions dealing with the amendment of the Constitution proposed by the Technical Committee on Drafting the Constitution.

Sir, the House will note that the Referendum Act was amended, through the Referendum (Amendment) Act, 2015, in order to constitute the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) as the Referendum Commission.

Mr Speaker, the ECZ has set aside funds for sensitisation programmes relating to the referendum and will commence these processes once it reviews the final confirmation of the modalities for the holding of the referendum. 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Miyutu: Mr Speaker, the Government needs to be very responsible and accountable to the people. I was prompted to raise this question because of the silence of the people, especially in the rural areas, regarding the referendum. What effective measures will the Government put in place to ensure that people in rural areas are sensitised about the referendum apart from what the ECZ is already doing?

Mr Bwalya: Mr Speaker, the ECZ, which is also the Referendum Commission, has concentrated on education campaigns to ensure that people register as voters. As the ECZ engages in the voter education campaign to encourage people to turn out to vote on 11th August, 2016, it will also be disseminating information concerning the referendum. The ECZ will send out messages using both the electronic and print media. The voter education personnel will be sent to different wards in rural areas in order for them to educate the masses in the rural areas about the upcoming elections and referendum.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Namulambe (Mpongwe): Mr Speaker, I take it that the Bill of Rights is still in draft form.

Mr Muntanga: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, I thank you for affording me this chance to raise a point of order. I would like to apologise to the hon. Member for disturbing him.

Sir, Section 40 of the Higher Education Act states that:

“(1)    The Minister may, after consultation with the Authority, by notice in the Gazette, close a public higher education institution, where the public higher education institution –

(a)    is not operated in accordance with the provisions or requirements of this Act;

(b)    does not have full-time instructors while in session, except by distance education; or

(c)    is used in a manner that is detrimental to the interest of the learners, public peace and security, good governance or the health and security of the learners.
            
(2)           The Minister may close a public higher education institution, for a specified   
       period, on grounds of health or public disorder.”

Sir, is the hon. Minister of Higher Education in order to keep quiet after closing the two universities indefinitely? The hon. Minister has not informed us for how long the two higher institutions of learning will be closed as though Parliament condones abrogation of the law when the the provision of the law states that the higher institutions of learning should only be closed for a specified period.

I seek your ruling, Mr Speaker.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

  Mr Speaker: In view of the technical nature of the question, and also its narrow parameters, I urge the hon. Member for Kalomo Central to file an urgent question so that the hon. Minister may respond.

  Mr Namulambe: Mr Speaker, I was saying that I take it that the Bill of Rights is still in draft form. I would like to find out if the adoption of the Bill of Rights will go through a referendum process following the provision in the preamble of the amended Constitution which states that: “We, the people of Zambia do adopt and give ourselves this Constitution.” Are the people going to have a chance to look at the Draft Bill of Rights before the referendum?

  Mr Bwalya: Mr Speaker, I think that the draft has been circulating. The different provisions of the Bill of Rights have been discussed by people in different circles. I am also sure that it will be published in the various media. The publication of the Government Gazette regarding the Bill of Rights will give an opportunity to the Zambian people to read and understand the provisions therein.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.
     
 Mr Muchima (Ikeleng’i): Mr Speaker, ...

Mr Mbewe: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, I rarely rise on points of order. However, this particular point of order is very compelling. Firstly, I would like to thank Her Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning for providing relief food to the people of Chadiza Parliamentary Constituency. I want to put it on record that although the relief food is not enough, I know that her being a mother, she will add some more. I, therefore, want to thank her, on behalf of the people of Chadiza Parliamentary Constituency.

Sir, my point of order is emanating from an article on page 12 of The Post under the headline: “Government cannot earn US $195 million in Maize Exports without FRA Involvement ─ Simuusa.”

Mr Speaker, the people of Chadiza are very worried about the country’s food security situation. Hon. Simuusa is an hon. Member of Parliament in the Ruling Party. He is also a former hon. Minister of Agriculture. When you read the story in The Post, you will see that the hon. Minister of Agriculture said that the Government could earn US $195 million in maize exports. However, although Hon. Simuusa once served as Minister of Agriculture, he has gone against what the current hon. Minister of Agriculture said. The people of Chadiza are worried because they do not know the exact status of the food security situation in the country. They do not know whether or not the Government is going to feed them, especially that next year, the country will have food shortages due to the poor rainfall pattern.

Sir, is the hon. Minister of Agriculture in order to come to this House and sit there (pointing at Hon. Lubinda) and drink Government water without informing us if we are food secure? Is he in order not to inform us whether or not we have enough food to see us through this year and the next since there is a drought prevailing? Is the Government in order to continue exporting maize to other countries when Zambians lack sufficient food?

Sir, I seek your favourable ruling.

Mr Speaker: My favourable ruling is that you should file a question.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: You should file a question, more so that there were specific issues that you read from the newspaper. Let me say that if you want to gather information from the Executive, you do not have to worry about the tabloids. You could just ask for this information by filing a question, and the Government will give you the position without your exercising your mind over what you are reading from the newspapers.

Laughter

Mr Muchima: Mr Speaker, the hon. Deputy Minister has informed us that there is money that has been set aside for a referendum. The voter registration exercise was discontinued because the Government has no money to give the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ). The ECZ was reported to have a shortfall of K200 million for it to have a possible re-run, yet there is money which has been set aside for a referendum. If that is the case, how much is it, and why did the Government deny the people the opportunity to complete the voter registration exercise which is directly connected with the referendum?

Mr Bwalya: Mr Speaker, I may not be able to state the exact amount required to hold a referendum. However, all that I can say is that it is provided for in the Yellow Book. Further, the Appropriation Act was passed by this House, and so, it is just a matter of going back and looking at the figure that is provided for. Just like the General Election, the referendum has been provided for.

Sir, as regards the voter registration exercise, I want to state that the referendum talks of eligible voters, and so, whether the people registered as voters or not, they are free to participate in the referendum as long as they are have national registration cards (NRCs). So, it is not dependent on the number of registered voters, but persons who are aged eighteen years and above, which age makes one eligible to vote.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Livune (Katombola): Mr Speaker, by curtailing the mobile voter registration exercise in the rural areas, the nation has been denied an opportunity to know the exact number of eligible voters. People were promised that the exercise would be concluded in two weeks. The national registration team went to some areas after the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) had withdrawn from those areas. So, there is a disjoint that is preventing us from knowing the actual number of registered voters. I know that the hon. Deputy Minister is saying people can vote in a referendum using National Registration Cards (NRCs). Is the hon. Deputy Minister able to tell the nation the exact number of people eligible to vote in a referendum?

Mr Bwalya: Mr Speaker, I mentioned the fact that the Central Statistical Office (CSO) is in charge of that particular process. It is only through the census that you can get the exact number of eligible voters because not even the voter registration can determine that. The voter registration that the hon. Member has referred to captures those who have gone to register as voters. However, it will not state how many people are eligible to vote because those who choose not to register as voters will stay home. So, when I say the people can use their NRCs to go and vote in a referendum, I do not mean that they can use it also to go and vote in a general election. 

Sir, there are people who belong to certain religions that do not believe in registering as voters, who are still eligible to decide on what should be contained in the Bill of Rights. Such people should not be forced to go and register as voters. Therefore, the only exercise that can inform this country about the exact number of eligible voters is the Census. The CSO carried out a census in 2010 and is looking at the options of which methods to use to know the exact number of eligible voters in the country.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Shakafuswa (Katuba): Mr Speaker, the referendum will be held just to decide which way to go regarding certain Articles in the Bill of Rights, just like the contentious issues in the Constitution. I wonder if we are fully informing the people so that they are made aware of the implications of voting in a referendum. I say this because I realise that a lot of us were part of the Constitution Review Commission (CRC). However, most of us did not know the implications of what was contained in that document until it was passed in this House. The people who participated in passing that document are now going back to the media and saying certain Articles contained in the Constitution are not good. Are we not going to have the same situation whereby people will just vote in the referendum without understanding what they are voting for? Will the people not come back later and say what were we thinking by voting in a particular manner? Others might also say that: Do you know that by voting the way you did, you have allowed gay rights in Zambia? 

Mr Bwalya: Mr Speaker, indeed, quite a number of people did not read the current Constitution before it was assented to by the President. As we speak, we are live on radio and I know that the Zambian people are listening. It is my prayer and hope that they will take a keen interest in the Bill of Rights that we are talking about now. They need to start reading and studying it so that they understand its provisions. It is also our role as hon. Members of Parliament to go out there and sensitise the people about the provisions of the Bill of Rights. 

Sir, I can also assure the House that when the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) embarks on its sensitisation tour, it will inform the public on how the voting will be conducted. The commission will not go into the details to explain the provisions of the Bill of Rights. We must ensure that we read the Draft Bill of Rights in order to understand its provisions.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mutelo (Lukulu West): Mr Speaker, I concur with the hon. Member of Parliament for Bweengwa that the way this process is being handled is like diamaka, which is the cooking of meat and ndombe, which is a bubble fish, in one pot. During the General Elections, is there going to be one queue for those voting in the election and referendum and then another one for those voting in the referendum only? 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bwalya: Mr Speaker, the ECZ, which is also the Referendum Commission, will spell out the modalities on how the arrangements will be at the polling stations. I am quite sure there will be ushers at polling stations to direct people where to vote for a referendum or for the candidates who will stand on various positions during the General Elections. The Zambian people will be educated and communicated to effectively at the time when the ECZ starts its sensitisation and voter education campaign.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Sir, we would like to gather some confidence in the processes our colleagues in the Patriotic Front (PF) are undertaking regarding the referendum. One of the major prerequisites for a referendum to take place is a census. A census is a very big activity. Has money been put aside to conduct this census? What assurance do we have that a good job will be done, as opposed to the job that was done during the voter registration and national registration card (NRC) issuance exercises? Up to now, the NRC issuance exercise is still ongoing, but in some areas, it has been curtailed because of a lack of money, as we have been told. 

Sir, does Her Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning not think that it would be prudent for the Opposition and Ruling Party, as the leaders of this country at this juncture, to sit down together and come up with one united position regarding the referendum? I get the feeling that our colleagues are not telling us the whole truth regarding the referendum. We only have three months to be adequately ready for this year’s election.

Mr Bwalya: Mr Speaker, first of all, I think we are telling the whole truth. The President is on record as having said on several occasions that the Bill of Rights will go to a referendum. Secondly, a census was conducted less than two years ago. We have also stated in an earlier answer that we are looking at the options of using various methods of doing a census. It has also been stated that money will be provided for a referendum. 

Mr Speaker, our doors are always open for dialogue with other leaders. If there is an absolute need for us to sit and discuss, we should do so. I think the President has always extended that hand so that we can come up with a common position. There have always been a lot of calls that this Bill must go to a referendum. In fact, it is a provision of the law that the Bill of Rights cannot be changed unless it goes to a referendum. So, whether or not we sit and agree, and come up with a common goal, the law will still dictate that this particular piece of legislation must go to a referendum.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Bishop Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha (Keembe): Mr Speaker, many countries have ended up in turmoil because the processes towards the elections have not been transparent. The question by the hon. Member of Parliament for Lukulu West on how many people are going to vote in one day and how they are going to do it is an important question that needs to be addressed by the Government in the short time that is there. We would like to see transparency on the part of the Government in that area so that we can discuss these issues. Is the Office of Her Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning going to bring to Parliament for discussion the method which the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) is going to use in order for us to be assured that there will be transparency?

The Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning (Mrs Wina): Mr Speaker, the hon. Deputy Minister explained that the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ), being the Referendum Commission, is still working on modalities of how the voting for the referendum will be implemented. That process is still ongoing. Definitely, there is a need to engage all stakeholders in the preparation of the process. At the moment, we have to lay the ground work for the effective participation of all stakeholders in this process.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Lubezhi (Namwala): Mr Speaker, may I start by thanking the hon. Member of Parliament for Kalabo Central for bringing this question which has just exposed the fact that the Patriotic Front (PF) Government is a near miss for this country.

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

Ms Lubezhi: Sir, in responding to the question by the hon. Member of Parliament for Mazabuka Central, the hon. Deputy Minister said that the Government will conduct a sampling census. How will a sampling census conform to the law with regard to the requirements of a census? 

Mr Bwalya: Mr Speaker, I think I quoted the law. Perhaps let me do that again …

The Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning rose to speak.

Mr Bwalya: Sorry, mum.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: There is nothing wrong.

Order!

The Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning: Mr Speaker, to be cantankerous as an hon. Member of Parliament in the manner that you pose questions to the Executive can sometimes also attract unfavourable reactions. The Patriotic Front (PF) Government is extremely transparent.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hmm!

Mr Livune: Question!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutale: Very transparent.

The Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning: Mr Speaker, if the PF Government was not transparent, even the Constitution Amendment Bill which was brought to this House, could have been manipulated.

Mr Mwila: Yes!

The Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning: Sir, we have been transparent before.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning: Sir, the PF Government brought the Constitution Amendment Bill to Parliament as it was supposed to be.

Mr Nkombo: Question!

Mr Mwila: Ah! Ba Gary.

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: Iwe, wanwinefye two tots.

Mr Speaker: Order!

Continue, please.

The Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning: Mr Speaker, I sense some uneasiness on the other side of the House. Issues surrounding the rigging of elections seems to be dear to the United Party for National Development (UPND), in particular.

Mr Mwila: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning: Sir, I am very surprised at where they are getting the fear from because everyone of them who stands up says the PF will rig elections.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning: Sir, nothing of that sort will happen.

Mr Mwila: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: Tell them.

Mr Mwila: Hummer, hummer!

The Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning: Sir, they should not take such a defeatist view …

Mr Mwila: Yes!

The Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning: … even before we go into campaign mode.

Mr Mwila: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning: Mr Speaker, it was explained that …

Mr Muntanga interjected.

The Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning: … the Central Statistical Office (CSO) has engaged the Electoral Commission of Zambia. The officials from the two institutions have looked at many options on how we can handle the referendum. One of the options is to use the statistics for 2010 because they can still help us to predict the number of people who are eligible to vote during the referendum. This is the process I was talking about that was still being undertaken. Other stakeholders will be engaged in the whole process in due course.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

GMA IN CHIEF MACHIYA’S AREA 

331. Mr Namulambe asked the Minister of Tourism and Arts:

(a)    whether the Government had any plans to degazette the game management area (GMA) in Chief Machiya’s area in Mpongwe Parliamentary Constituency;

(b)    if so, when the plans would be implemented; and

(c)    if there are no such plans, why.

The Deputy Minister of Tourism and Arts (Mr P. Ngoma): Mr Speaker, I wish to state that the Government still has plans to degazzette part of the Manchiya Fungulwe game management area (GMA).

Mr Speaker, the plan is being implemented in three phases as follows:
    
(i)    Phase I was made up of preliminary assessments. This was a consultative process with stakeholders which was conducted in 2010 and also through an aerial survey made in 2013. A total area of 74,000 ha out of 153,000 ha was recommended by the chief and the local community to be degazzeted from the GMA;

(ii)    Phase II was made up of the boundary survey. This involved drafting site plans for the 74,000 ha and the narrative description; and

(iii)    Phase III will involve the drafting of a Statutory Instrument (SI). The Ministry of Tourism and Arts will submit the draft degazzating SI to the Ministry of Justice for clearance once the approved degazzeting site plans and the narrative description are received from the Survey Department.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Namulambe: Mr Speaker, looking at the time when this process began …

Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, thank you for allowing me to raise a point of order. My point of order is motivated by the provisions of the National Assembly (Powers and Privileges) Act  Cap. 12 of the Laws of Zambia. 

Sir, I will not endeavour to quote what I already quoted yesterday when Her Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning, on the Floor of this House, denied ever knowing a company called Timor Consulting. I want to make reference to today’s The Post …

Hon. Government Members: Ah!

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order, order!

Mr Nkombo: … on page 25 which has a response that Her Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning gave to the hon. Member of Parliament for Chongwe in one breath, and in another to the hon. Member of Parliament for Monze Central in which she said:

“The Vice-President, Inonge Wina says State House does not know anything about Timor Consulting and the company has no dealings with any Government institution or agency. Responding to a question from Chongwe Member of Parliament, Sylvia Masebo who asked whether Timor Consulting is dealing with any Government Department or the Electoral Commission of Zambia. Vice-President Wina, told Parliament, Tuesday, that the Israeli company was not known to State House”.

Sir, Her Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning went further to say:

“This company Timor Consulting is not known here, but Mr Speaker, the Patriotic Front (PF) is a social club, if it is necessary for the PF to contract a media consultant to come, we would have done it, but the truth of the matter is that, Mr Speaker, this is not the case.”She challenged Masebo to provide evidence to any correspondence between Timor Consulting and any Government institution.”

Sir, in my hands here, (waving a newspaper) I have two letters that have been re-published by the The Post, a company which I believe helped the PF get into power in one way or another.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: I would like to quote the contents of these two letters, one of which is from State House.

Hon. UPND Members: Hmmm, State House? Shame!

Mr Nkombo: The letterhead has the Coat of Arms and it says:

“9th October

“Mr Samuel Nkhoma
Director-General
Zambia Security Intelligence Service
LUSAKA

 “Dear Director-General, 

“RE: CONSULTING SERVICE AGREEMENT - TIMOR CONSULTING.

“I wish to inform you that His Excellency, Mr. Edgar C. Lungu, has authorised me to engage the above-named firm to provide consulting services for the 2016 General Elections Campaign. To guarantee the highest levels of information management and integrity of the project, it is desirable that this contract is signed under your auspices.

 “I have examined the technical proposal and I am satisfied that it provides a comprehensive outline of the desired interventions necessary to run an effective and efficient campaign. The proposal particularly provides an elaborate integrated campaign plan encompassing strategic consulting, communication support, creative services, strategic research and social media and digital campaigns. The technical proposal is hereby enclosed.

“His Excellency has also directed that a team of local consultants, including Mr Jeff Sitali, be sub-contracted to the project. I have since held consultations with Timor Consulting and we have agreed on the integration process that will take place after the contract has been signed. 

“With regard to the contract attached herewith, kindly note that the contract period is now 1st November, 2015 to 30th September, 2015.

“Yours sincerely, 

“Mr Amos Chanda
Special Assistant to the President 
State House

Extremely confidential”

Hon. UPND Members: Aah!

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, in the interest of time, I will not read the response from Timor Consulting though contained in this same newspaper. However, I will endeavour to lay it on the Table.

Mr Speaker, Her Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning denied ever having any relationship with Timor Consulting. Is she not aware that the Zambia Security Intelligence Service is a Government institution? If she is aware, is she in order to have misled the House yesterday by denying more than three times, as it was in Gethsemane, ...

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: ... about the knowledge of this company called Timor Consulting.

Mr Speaker, I seek your ruling.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. UPND Members: VP bubera bwatama!

Mr Speaker: I reserve my ruling.

The hon. Member for Mpongwe may continue.

Mr Namulambe: Mr Speaker, it has taken quite some time to degazzete the Machiya/Fungulwe Game Management Area. Considering the revelation this afternoon, how much more time is required to see the conclusion of this matter?

The Minister of Tourism and Arts (Ms Kapata): Mr Speaker, we are just waiting for the Surveyor-General to submit the papers to the Ministry of Tourism and Arts so that we, in turn, can send them to the Ministry of Justice for clearance.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

____________

MOTION

INCREASE AMOUNT OUTSTANDING AT ANY ONE TIME ON DOMESTIC AND EXTERNAL LOANS

The Minister of Finance (Mr Chikwanda): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now favourably consider the Motion to amend the Loans and Guarantees Maximum Amounts Amendment Orders 2014 and 2016 in order to provide for an adjustment in the maxim amounts of outstanding domestic and external loans as well as internal and external guarantees that the Government may execute. 

  Mr Speaker, let me start by stating that under the Loans and Guarantees Authorisation Act Cap. 366 of the Laws of Zambia, the hon. Minister may raise from time to time, in the Republic and elsewhere, such loans and in such amounts as shall from time to time, be authorised by the resolution of the National Assembly of Zambia. 

Sir, I have in the past moved Motions in this House to raise the maximum amounts of outstanding domestic and external loans as well as amounts of internal and external guarantees that the Government may issue. The Loans and Guarantees (Maximum Amounts) Order of  2013 prescribed that the maximum amount outstanding at any one time on a loan raised outside the Republic of Zambia shall not exceed K35 billion. Pursuant to the Act, in July, 2015, I moved a Motion in this House to amend the Loans and Guarantees (Maximum Amounts) Order of 2013 to provide for an increase in the maximum amount of total outstanding external loans from K35 billion to K60 billion. The Motion was approved by the House, resulting in the Loans and Guarantees (Maximum Amounts) Order of 2015, which prescribes that the maximum amount outstanding at any one time on loans raised outside the Republic of Zambia shall not exceed K60 billion. 

Sir, for loans raised within the Republic of Zambia, I moved a Motion in 2013 to amend the Loans and Guarantees (Maximum Amounts) Order of 2013, by increasing the maximum amount of internal loans that can be raised and guarantees that can be issued by the Government. This Motion was equally approved resulting in the Loans and Guarantees (Maximum Amounts) Amendment Order of 2014 prescribing K13 billion as the maximum amount of one year loans and K20 billion as the maximum amount of loans more than one year that the hon. Minister can raise under Section 3 of the Loans and Guarantees Authorisation Act. 

Mr Speaker, with regard to the maximum amount of contingent liability in respect of guarantees issued at any one time, the Loans and Guarantees (Maximum Amounts) Amendment Order  of 2014 prescribed K2 billion for internal guarantees and K5 billion ...

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

You may continue, hon. Minister. 

Mr Chikwanda: ... for external guarantees that the Ministry of Finance can issue under Section 15 of the Loans and Guarantees Authorisation Act. 

Sir, the Government is grateful to the House for the favourable ...

Mr Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours. 
[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Speaker, the Government is grateful to the House for its favourable consideration on these Motions. The increase in the maximum amounts of outstanding domestic and external loans, as well as internal and external guarantees that can be issued, enabled the Government to raise adequate financing for critical social and economic projects, the majority of which was in infrastructure development in sectors such as energy, transport, agriculture, health and education. Notwithstanding, these amendments, it has become necessary to amend the Loans and Guarantees Authorisation (Maximum Amounts) Order of 2014 and 2015 to adjust the maximum amount of outstanding domestic and external loans as well as internal and external guarantees. The need to raise the debt and guarantee the ceiling comes in the wake of a serious impact that both the global and domestic developments have had on the debt position. The sharp depreciation of the kwacha in the last two quarters of 2015 has substantially increased our external debt position in kwacha terms from K38.4 billion before depreciation, to K72.68 billion. In addition, the stock of Treasury bills at K12.59 billion against the current limit of K13 billion is very little headroom for financing the 2016 Budget and in the medium term. Although Government Bonds at K12.61 billion are below the limit of K20 billion, this instrument remains the most sustainable in providing medium to long-term financing of Government programmes. With the level of projects that the Government intends to undertake in the medium to long-term, this limit may eventually be a constraining factor. 

Sir, the above mentioned realities mean that in the event that the limits are not raised, the Government will be in breach of the legal limits on the external debt and will be unable to implement programmes earmarked for external financing in 2016 and the medium-term. 

Mr Speaker, hon. Members may recall that this House approved the raising of external loans amounting to K3.41 billion to finance the Budget in 2016. Similarly, domestic financing amounting to K2.5 billion was approved. Further, as I alluded to in my address of 23rd February, 2016, the Government intends to run a fiscal deficit averaging 3 per cent, as a way of stimulating the economic activity and addressing some of the binding constraints to poverty reduction. 

Sir, in my address on the state of the economy, I outlined a number of challenges and subsequent measures that the Government intends to undertake in 2016, and the medium-term, to ensure macroeconomic stability, broad-based growth and poverty reduction. These measures cannot be undertaken without recourse to financing in view of the subdued economic activity, and thus, revenue prospects. Without this financing, our growth prospects will be inhibited, a situation that will result in macroeconomic imbalances, constrained job creation and higher poverty levels. Further, the lack of financing will entail failure by the Government to deal with the current challenges, predominantly that of the power deficit that has far-reaching implications on the entire economy. 

Sir, in light of the tight liquidity in both the international and domestic markets, there is a requirement for diversified sources of financing. It is for this reason that the Government is also focusing on providing an enabling environment through the issuance of sovereign guarantees to allow investments to facilitate higher economic growth, particularly in the energy sector. 

Therefore, Mr Speaker, in order to ensure that the Government raises adequate financing for the 2016 Budget and the medium term, within the stipulated confines of the law, and in moving my Motion, I propose the following adjustments to the maximum amounts of domestic and external loans as well as internal and external guarantees that can be raised under the said Act. 

Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Chikwanda: Yes, question.

Laughter 

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Speaker, I propose an increase in the maximum amount of loans with maturity of more than one year that may be raised outside the country from K60 billion to K160 billion.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Chikwanda: This is intended to finance development in Kazungula. 

Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Chikwanda: Sir, secondly, I propose an increase in the amount outstanding at any one time on loans raised within the Republic of Zambia and payable over a period of not more than one year from K13 billion to K30 billion. 

Sir, further, I propose an increase in the amount outstanding at any one time on loans raised within the Republic of Zambia and payable over a period of more than a year from K20 billion to K40 billion. Furthermore, I propose an increase in the total contingent liability at any one time in respect of guarantees given to persons ordinarily resident outside Zambia from K5 billion to K50 billion and, lastly, an increase in the total contingent liability at any one time in respect of guarantees given to persons ordinarily resident in Zambia from K2 billion to K30 billion. 

Mr Speaker, let me reiterate that raising debt ceilings does not, in principle, imply increased borrowing or imprudent spending by the Government. All it does is allow the Government to meet its existing obligations while adhering to the prescribed limit in the law. The Government is more than ever committed to ensuring that public debt is maintained at sustainable levels. 

Sir, I have on more than one occasion informed this House that the debt suitability analyses undertaken on Zambia’s public debt indicates that all sustainability indicators remain below their applicable internationally accepted and agreed upon thresholds. Zambia’s external public debt currently stands at US$6.4 billion or K72.68 billion, representing about 38.7 per cent of the Gross Domestic Product (GDP) and below the internationally agreed upon threshold of 40 per cent. On the other hand, domestic debt is K25.6 billion or approximately US$2.3 billion, representing about 14 per cent of the GDP and is also below the internationally accepted threshold. The total public debt is, therefore, 52.7 percent of the GDP below the international threshold of 56 percent. 

Nonetheless, Mr Speaker, the Government realises that maintaining debt sustainability will require a holistic approach. As indicated in my 2016 Budget Address to this House, which was appropriately themed “Fiscal Consolidation to Safeguard our Past Achievements and Secure a Prosperous Future for All”, the Government is advancing to greater fiscal consolidation in the light of the economic challenges that the country is currently experiencing. 

Mr Speaker, in accordance with the Loans and Guarantees Authorisation Act, Chapter 366, of the Laws of Zambia, I now move that the House increases the ceilings on domestic, external as well as internal and external guarantees as I have indicated above. 

Mr Speaker, I beg to move. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister’s statement is reminiscent of what one would call a broken record. I have with me what the hon. Minister of Finance said on 27th November, 2013, when he was seeking the approval of this House to lift the debt ceiling from K20 billion to K35 billion. The Opposition had some apprehensions, but the hon. Minister was very candid and indicated that the ceiling had not been tempered with since 1998. Although some of us voted against that move, the Patriotic Front (PF) managed to get what they wanted using the arrogance of numbers and moved the ceiling from K20 billion to K35 billion. 

Sir, the reasons which the hon. Minister of Finance cited for the increase are the same reasons he is giving today. He cited the Link Zambia 8,000 km Road Project, the railway system rehabilitation, energy generation and the distribution of agriculture dip tanks and silos, to name but a few.

Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister of Finance is a darling to many of us but, today I declare that the relationship which I have shared with him on this front has diminished. The document I am holding contains the deliberations which highlight the concerns which hon. Members aired when the hon. Minister came to the House, not long after the 27th of November, 2013, to ask for the threshold to be moved to K60 billion. I said that the hon. Minister sounds like a broken record because he is giving the same reasons which he gave some time back. Can the hon. Minister show me any improvements that have been effected since 27th November, 2013, to date? Can the hon. Minister tell me whether Zambia Railways Limited has become more efficient? Can he tell me that there is no stench when you enter the University Teaching Hospital (UTH)? 

Sir, the road that goes to Mpulungu is in a bad state. That speaks volumes regarding the type of workmanship that this money, which the hon. Minister is asking for, is spent on. 

Mr Speaker, the Mazabuka Central vote will not go to my uncle today. I know that they will take the vote using the arrogance of numbers.

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member for Mazabuka Central, just refer to him as the hon. Minister of Finance.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister of Finance should know that the Mazabuka Central vote will not go his way on this matter. The people of Mazabuka Central have rejected this kind of conduct.

Hon. Government Members: We know!

Mr Nkombo: Sir, the Government has not specified how this money will be used even though it continuously denies that it is broke and has no money to finance its operations. 

Mr Livune: Shame!

Mr Nkombo: Sir, the people of Mazabuka Central want the Government to admit where the problem really is. They want the Government to admit that its engines are not firing on all cylinders. 

Mr Speaker, we approved a Budget not so long ago. I believe that everything was taken into consideration when it was being made. A budget is a wish list through which the Government tells its people its planned activities for a particular fiscal year. 

Mr Ng’onga: Question!

Mr Nkombo: There is a greenhorn in here!

Sir, we do not know about the Tsunami that is coming on the 11th of August, 2016. Some of them may know what will happen ...

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

Mr Ng’onga: Question!

Mr Nkombo: ... because of the things that are being speculated in the media. In fact, by borrowing more money, the Patriotic Front (PF) is pushing its luck too far. The PF has borrowed enough money and must learn to cut the cloth to the size of its body.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Livune interjected.

Mr Nkombo: Do not do it! I would have used the words ‘rubber stamp’ if it was not unparliamentary ...

Mr Livune: Which one?

Mr Nkombo: Rubber stamp.

Ms Kapata: You have already used it.

Mr Nkombo: Sir, when time for posterity comes, the Zambian people will blame us just as the case was during the enactment of the defective Constitution amendments. Many people are now wondering if we read the amendments when they were being proposed. 

Interruptions 

Mr Muntanga: We read!

Mr Nkombo: Similarly, today the Government wants to envelope us in a debt trap.

Sir, I have said before that the PF is more of a curse than a blessing to the Zambian people.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, let us look at the laws of probability in terms of life expectancy. The burden of paying these loans – I see the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development is laughing – is not going to be on them. Take a look at them.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: Sir, the burden of paying these loans is going to be on us.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Sir, maybe, the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing may still be here, with a stroke of luck. Generally speaking, ...

Laughter 

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, you are now debating hon. Members, their ages and speculating.

Mr Nkombo: Sir, I withdraw that comment. 

Interruptions 

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, people should not attach emotions to what I am saying because I am speaking factually. I want to apologise to the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing. This place should not be a circus where people can just come and approve things. I hope what I have said is not unparliamentary. 

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member, I will not allow that practice because in effect, you are using unparliamentary language. 

Hon. Government Members: Yes!

Mr Nkombo: Sir, the PF Government is using us as punching bags. The PF hon. Members want to start acting like stars. On whose head do they want to borrow money? They know that there are challenges in this country. The hon. Minister of Finance must pick up the phone and call his colleague in South Africa to find out exactly what he has done to respond to the economic challenges which his country is facing. The South Africans have not resorted to borrowing. They have decided to implement austerity measures. 

Hon. UPND Members: Yes!

Mr Nkombo: Sir, the first thing that the PF should do is to pack the Toyota Landcruiser VX vehicles. They should sell them to people who can afford them in the private sector. When the PF came into office, they claimed that they would put in place serious austerity measures. Today, even hon. Deputy Ministers whose offices are not backed by the current Constitutional drive big vehicles. 

Mr Speaker: Order! 

You have just gone back to what I was refraining you from doing.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, my stance of deciding not to back the Motion is not intended to show disrespect meant to you, Sir, or the hon. Minister of Finance. Somebody in the future will have to pay the loans which are being contracted today. That is a fact. Where were they at the time when this House was being asked to move the borrowing ceiling from K20 billion to K35 billion and from K35 billion to K60 billion? Now, they want to increase by a huge leap. What do they want to do with that money in the few months that they are left with to govern this country? The probability is now 50/50. With or without Timor Consulting, somebody is going to leave. Suppose it is the PF which is leaving, who is going to be left with the burden of paying these huge debts which we are talking about? 

Mr Lubinda: The UPND! 

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, I need your help so that Hon. Lubinda can stop making running commentaries. That way, I can think clearly because, then, I will not get distracted to start attending to his comments.

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member, it is not possible for you to attend to his commentary because you have no power to do so.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: Sir, it is a request.

Mr Speaker: You cannot attend to his commentary. I will not allow you to do that.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, in terminating my refusal to endorse the hon. Minister’s quest for us to lift the debt ceiling, let me refer to the debate of November, 2013, by a prolific hon. Member of Parliament, who is not here today. He stated that:

“Sir, if the oldest hon. Member of Parliament, who is on the other side (right) of the House is eighty-two years old and the youngest, who is also on that side (right) is thirty-two years old, that means that there is a fifty-year difference. The one who is eighty-two years old is not going to walk back thirty years, but the one who is thirty-two years old, with God on his side, will walk another fifty years to eighty-two. So, will you, who is eighty-two years old, be there to be responsible for this repayment? This money will not be paid for over one year. It will be paid over twenty or thirty years and some of it will be rolled out.”

Sir, as we stand today, when the PF came into power, the external debt was a billion. Correct me if I am wrong. Now we have gone to the unprecedented pre-Highly Indebted Poor Countries (HIPC) Initiative times of above K7 billion. Who will pay back that money in just three-and-a -half years? I think this is an act of irresponsibility. I want to appeal to all hon. Members of Parliament, including those in the PF to leave the hon. Minister of Finance standing alone on this matter. They should not vote for this.

Laughter 

Mr Nkombo: Sir, I appeal to them that if their conscience is living, they should do the right thing. It simply is not the most innovative way to carry out Government business. We have talked to them many times before that they can find some innovations to raise finances, including providing value addition to our mining activities. It is possible to do that. Currently, Zambians are losing jobs. The people of Zambia who are listening to this debate know who had made them face the plummeting prices of the minerals at global level in a worse off manner. For me, the Member for Mazabuka Central, I am giving them a no vote to increase the borrowing ceiling.

Mr Kambwili interjected. 

Mr Speaker: Order! 

Mr Nkombo: If you want to fight, let us go outside and not here.  

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Nkombo: I can take two of them on. 

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Order! 

This is not even the best place for that. Are you through, hon. Member? 

Mr Nkombo: Yes, Sir. 

Mr Speaker: You can take a seat.

Mr Nkombo: We can go now.

Laughter

Mr Mutelo: Mr Speaker, …

Mr Speaker: Before you proceed, take a seat, hon. Member. I just want to make this point clear. The hon. Deputy Ministers who are assembled here are not here unconstitutionally. That is far from it. I think I have said this on two occasions. Let us read the Act. The Constitution itself permits their presence here. Let us look at the Constitution very closely. I am saying this for the third time now. We should read both Acts of the Constitution thoroughly. There is one for continuity and the other for substantive rights. 

The hon. Member for Lukulu West may continue.

Mr Mutelo: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister is seeking authority to increase the debt ceiling for both external and domestic borrowing.  Under the first part, the Government seeks to increase the maximum amount outstanding at any one time on external loans raised outside the Republic of Zambia and payable over a period of more than one year from K60 billion to K160 billion. That is an increment of K100 billion. This is beyond 100 per cent. Our civil servants do not get increments of that much. Recently, some of them have received about K120, K200 and K500 as increments. It is unfortunate that in terms of borrowing, we want to increase the ceiling by more than 100 per cent. 

Mr Speaker, the second part talks about an increase from K13 billion to K30 billion. That is an increment of about K17 billion. The third part talks about an increase from K20 billion to K40 billion. The fourth one talks about an increase from K5 billion to K50 billion. That is an increase of about K45 billion. The fifith …

Laughter

Mr Mutelo: Yes!  In case they do not know, the fifith is number five.

 Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 Mr Mutelo: Sir, maybe, they do not know what I am saying. I am talking about the fifith which is number five.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Order!

May the hon. Member continue.

Mr Mutelo: Mr Speaker, the fifith point is talking about an increase from K2 billion to K30 billion. That is an increase of about is K28 billion. Where I come from, the people will cry mawe because the increase is too much. 

Sir, the reasons given by the hon. Minister notwithstanding, it was going to be fair if the borrowing threshold was going to be increased from K60 billion to K80 billion.

Mr Speaker, if they are saying that the money will go towards the improvement of electricity supply, I want to know whether Mitete is going to get a share so that we can have electricity in that area.

Laughter

Mr Mutelo: Sir, if they are saying that part of this money is intended to improve the transport sector, I want to know if the road from Tateyoyo to Katunda and Katunda to Mwembeshi will be worked on.

Mr Lufuma: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutelo: Mr Speaker, if they are saying that part of the money will go towards the improvement of the health sector, I want to know how many health posts will be worked on in my area, including the ones which we have been talking about for years now. How many health posts will be completed in Mitete once more money is borrowed?

Sir, if they are saying that part of this money is intended to improve the education sector, I want to know how many schools will be built in Mitete if the borrowing threshold is increased.

Mr Speaker, are they trying to borrow to avoid embarrassment? I do not know who will be embarrassed if things do not work well. It seems that there is some kind of embarrassment, which the Government is trying to run away from. Maybe, it is the embarrassments associated with load shedding, escalating mealie meal prices, high cost of living and the late payment of salaries to civil servants.

 Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear! 

Mr Mutelo: Sir, according to what the hon. Minister stated, the Government is trying to run away from some form of embarrassment.

Mr Speaker, it is not me who is trying to do that.

Laughter

Mr Mutelo: Mr Speaker, my vote on this Motion is that I want to wash my hands of it like I did when we voted on the Constitution amendments on that particular night. My fear is that it will not be possible for the Government to repay the money which will be borrowed in one year. It also means that I will be part of the people who will pay back the money, yet, I did not take part in borrowing it.

Laughter

Mr Mutelo: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Member for Kabompo West going to be there when the payment will be made?

 Mr Speaker: Order!

Again, the hon. Member for Lukulu West should not debate hon. Members. I have just been advising him not to do that. Please, try to inject some earnestness in the debate.

Mr Mutelo: Sir, the kind of borrowing which the PF is engaging in is uncalled for. Are there some activities hidden under the carpet on which they want to spend the money they want to borrow? Let us borrow the appropriate amount of money for the right purpose.  

Mr Speaker, before I talk too much, I want to end here.

 I thank you, Sir.   

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Speaker, I thank you for this opportunity.

Sir, I want to say that I find what the hon. Minister of Finance is asking us to do very sad. When I debated last time on a similar issue, I pleaded with him to be careful on how he spent our money. I begged him not to take us back to the times of the United National Independence Party (UNIP). I advised him not take this country back into a debt trap. I stated that we needed to know how the Government was using our money. We are getting worried that most of the time, the Government is spending money outside the budget. 

Mr Speaker, recently, the hon. Minister got authorisation from this House for the importation of electricity from South Africa worth about K2.1 billion. There was also authorisation for the purchase of fuel worth over K3 billion. The money which the hon. Minister was asking for in the previous two incidents which I have referred to was within the authorised thresholds. Now, the hon. Minister is asking that we allow him to borrow more money. In my own understanding, the Government has reached the maximum borrowing threshold of K60 billion. How does he expect us to authorise him to borrow more money when we do not know what he is going to spend it on?

Sir, a lot of expenses are being incurred without our being told about them. I am yet to be told how much money was spent during the signing ceremony at which the Republican President assented to the Constitution. I want to know how much the Government spent on that day because it has been saying it did not spend any money, yet, Patriotic Front (PF) cadres were ferried to Lusaka from across the country. How much did the Government spend on the military personnel who were having rehearsals for several days and the fly-past at the stadium? The President should not drag the country into bankruptcy.

 Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Sir, how can the President hire busses for a meeting? Who paid for that? The hon. Minister is asking for authorisation to borrow more money because the country is bankrupt. They need to admit that fact.

 Hon. UPND Members: Yes!

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, the Government is seeking authorisation to borrow K60 billion from abroad and K40 billion domestically. If you added that together, you would find that the total indebtedness, for which the hon. Minister is seeking the approval of this House is K310 billion.  With that kind of borrowing, the hon. Minister is going to reach the maximum limit both externally and locally. It will also mean that people who are staying outside this country will act as guarantee on behalf of the Government while locally, the borrowing has been raised upwards to K50 billion.

Mr Speaker, we all need to search our conscience. There are no winners and losers when handling such matters. When we make a decision in this House, we are all tied to it. I know that some hon. Members will smile, laugh and dance when the Motion is passed, thinking that they have won a battle. However, when they lose and come to this side of the House, that is when they will start making sense of what we are saying.

 Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Sir, that is the time they will begin wondering why they made certain decisions. Fellow hon. Members of Parliament, what we are doing is not a joke. For me, it is like I am at a funeral. I am being asked to approve the borrowing of K310 billion by the hon. Minister of Finance as directed by the Head of State. None of the people in Government can say a word against the Head of State …

Mr Nkombo: Zero.

Mr Muntanga: … because they are scared.

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member, could you pause for a moment.

Interruptions

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: You know the convention that we do not debate ourselves. Even if this is a very emotive subject, we should still debate it impersonally.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, the Government is run by people.

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member, could you take a seat.

Mr Muntanga resumed his seat.

Mr Speaker: Yes, the Government is run by persons and cannot function otherwise. However, we all must be mindful that we still have rules in this House which must be followed. You cannot debate your colleagues. That is a rule. I think, as I see it, this is not a subject which should require my constant intervention.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, I am talking about the Government and the officers who represent it. All I am saying is that the hon. Minister of Finance, on behalf of the Government, is asking me to endorse the Motion which we are currently debating. When I endorse the Motion, I will be held responsible …

Mr Nkombo: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: … as a Member of Parliament …

Mr Nkombo: As Request Muntanga.

Mr Muntanga: … that I authorised the Government to spend more money. There is no way I am running away from what is happening. I want those in Government to understand that when they make certain decisions, they should be held responsible for the repercussions. Even when one is running a company and gets a loan, although he or she has guarantees, he or she will still be asked for his or her personal commitment to that loan. I want a situation whereby the people who are in the Government are sometimes held responsible for the loans which they borrow so that they are a bit more careful.

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Sir, we have heard that marketeers are being given money. Where did that money come from?

Mr Livune: Shame!

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, we had a case in this House which led to us stripping off the immunity of a former President because it was suspected that he had stolen money to buy a number of items. I stood here and debated that I thought that the money he had used was donated. The current Government is now buying a number of items. Are they stealing?

Laughter

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Sir, where are they getting the money?

Mr Kampyongo: A point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member, there are two issues I want to address. Firstly, the use of the word ‘stealing’ is unparliamentary. Secondly, I am not very sure whether you are recalling your debate or you are directing your debate towards your colleagues. I just want you to clarify that as you debate. You may continue.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, I am repeating what I said in my debate that this particular issue of authorising …

A cell phone rang.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Continue, hon. Member, you have the Floor. I will deal with that problem.

Hon. Opposition Members: Get the cell phone.

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, he has to debate. Continue, hon. Member.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, we are being asked a difficult question by the hon. Minister of Finance. We have seen certain projects which are not part of the 2016 Budget being implemented. How is it possible that within the first two or three months of the year, all the money has been spent? We authorised the borrowing of K60 billion late last year before we had approved the Budget. Now, they want us to approve the borrowing of an extra K100 billion.

Sir, when we said that the Government was getting bankrupt, they said that it was not true. The hon. Members of Parliament have not even received the 2015 and 2016 Constituency Development Fund (CDF).

Ms Lubezhi: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, can we be told the truth? What is going on? Can the hon. Minister of Finance tell us the correct position? Why is the Government borrowing all this money? Is it true that we have money in some reserves? They are requesting me to endorse this Motion and yet they have not answered my questions.

Interruptions

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, this is not a light moment. They keep coming to ask hon. Members to increase the debt limits so that they can keep spending and borrowing more money. I am worried because we have already borrowed a lot of money and now the Government wants to go back and borrow some more on the open market. We are going to have big vulture funds coming soon. The Government is driving this country into dangerous grounds. It is better for them to use bilateral agreements with certain countries to borrow money because that way, they can negotiate debt repayments, unlike borrowing on the open market.

Ms Lubezhi: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, they are buying bonds which those of us in this House will be held responsible for. I want to declare that I do not want to be held responsible to that extent.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister should, at least, explain to us why they are increasing the debt ceiling from K60 billion to K160 billion. He explained that he needed the K40 billion to be spent on development projects and we were told that the Government was constructing Itezhi-tezhi and Maamba Power stations. So, when there will be enough rain, we expect the Kariba Dam to be filled and the money we are paying to import power from South Africa should come back eventually. The Government is buying electricity at US16 or US18 cents per kWh because it wants to subsidise the customers. Hon. Minister of Finance, what are you doing? You are behaving like a person who is about to die and does not care what happens in future. A proper manager should be able to put things in place for times when he will not be there.

   Sir, the Government does not have answers of how it is going to pay back this loan. I find it difficult to endorse such Motions when I cannot get answers to my questions. This is a very difficult situation. The Government should be able to tell us if the country has money for elections. If it says there is nothing, and that is why it is borrowing, some of us will understand that the Government has blown all the money and so, it is borrowing to fund elections. It must be open and tell us. 

Mr Speaker, the Government has no money to fund the voter registration exercise, and so the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) discontinued the exercise. The ECZ wanted K200 million which the Government could not give it. So, as a Zambian, I will tell you that we will go back to the UNIP days when we used to print money in order to survive. That is what UNIP was doing.

Sir, we thought we had moved forward in Zambia with the Intelligence advising the Government so that things can be done properly. Why is that not so? Maybe, you have an answer, Mr Speaker.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: I am sure you are saying that on a light note. The Speaker does not debate.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Sir, I am pleased to hear that because when the Speaker asks me to explain, I take it that he has answers. I want to state that I have not been persuaded enough to give the hon. Minister of Finance a blank cheque of K310 billion, whose use I do not know. 

Hon. UPND Members: Shame!

Mr Muntanga: Sir, we keep being told that there is no money whenever we ask for certain projects to be funded. When we ask the Government to tar the road in Kalomo or work on a bridge, we are told that there is no money. So, where are they taking all this money from the loans that they are contracting? Do they want to use it to pay marketeers before elections or maybe, they want to use it to pay the people whom they will hire to listen to them as they campaign? They must not do that. A time will come when they will have to account for their behaviour.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear! On 12th August, 2016.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, I am not for the idea of the Government increasing the debt contracting threshold, and so, I should not be requested to do a wrong thing.

Hon. UPND Member: Request.

Mr Muntanga: I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Let me mention that following consultations, I allowed three hon. Members from the United Party for National Development (UPND) to debate the Motion which is on the Floor of the House. Now, I will have to allow three hon. Members from the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) to debate the Motion which is on the Floor of the House.

Ms Namugala (Mafinga): Mr Speaker, thank you for according me the opportunity to also add my voice to this very important Motion which is on the Floor. To start with, I want to state that this is a non-partisan Motion. We should, therefore, not take a partisan decision. 

Sir, I want to state, right from the beginning, that I do not support this Motion.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: Sir, I do not support this Motion because it is hardly a year since the hon. Minister came to this House and justified his request to raise the threshold from K35 billion to K60 billion, which we allowed him even after we expressed serious concerns.

Mr Speaker, today, the hon. Minister of Finance has come back, and is asking us to, yet again, revise the threshold from K60 billion to K160 billion to be outstanding at any given time as external loans. This is three times the Budget of 2016.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: Sir, he wants us to allow him to have the capacity to borrow three times more than the Budget that we passed in this House. He wants a blank cheque to be able to borrow K160 billion. In unrebased terms, it is K160 trillion.

Mr Speaker, I would like the hon. Minister to search his soul. He knows that I hold him very dear to my heart. If he went to the 14 million Zambians today, and asked them whether or not they wanted to allow him to borrow more than the US $6.4 billion that he has already borrowed, they would not allow him to do so. He should go and gather them and ask them that. He should call an indaba and ask every Zambian if they would allow him to borrow more money. I can guarantee him that the Zambians will say no. They will say no because at US $6.4 billion, every Zambian owes US $452. Each one of the 14 million Zambians is carrying a US $452 of debt, including the poor woman in Mafinga, Chadiza, Shang’ombo, ...

Bishop Lt-Gen. Shikapawsha:  ... and Keembe.

Ms Namugala: Sir, I do not agree with the hon. Minister that we need to borrow in order to improve the country’s productive capacity. I agree that we need infrastructure development in order to grow our economy. I also agree that each one of us here, as a Member of Parliament, wants the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) and development in our constituencies. However, is borrowing the only way we can raise resources?

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Ms Namugala: Mr Speaker, the answer is no. There are many ways of raising resources. To start with, let us not be lazy. Let us look at innovative ways of raising resources. Even in the Budget that we pass, money is being wasted.

Sir, as the Public Accounts Committee (PAC), we have been sitting for the last month. The Report of the Auditor-General has been growing every year. It now has 525 pages of financial irregularities. 

Bishop Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha: Nobody is taken to court.

Ms Namugala: Sir, K543 billion wasted through public service delivery. What is the prudent thing to do to ensure that we deal with the mismanagement of public resources internally? We must employ austerity measures. We must mean what we say when we say from now on, there will be no more travels for hon. Ministers. Is that not better than borrowing?

Mr Speaker, we all know that at the current exchange rate, the Government’s capacity to service the external debt has been reduced because instead US$1 is now costing K11.50. We have talked about the need for us to diversify the economy so that we export more than we are doing at the moment. The Patriotic Front (PF) has been in power for four years and in the whole of this period, all we have heard is the Government borrowing.

Interruptions

Ms Namugala: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister can argue that because he requires more kwacha cover to be able to raise the dollars to service the national debt, he needs an increased threshold in terms of the debt limit. However, I argue that he does not need to borrow at the moment. I want to encourage the hon. Minister not to be a darling of his colleagues because as the hon. Minister of Finance, he cannot be good to everybody. He has to weigh the costs against benefits. Every one of us wants something, but as the hon. Minister of Finance, he must tell us what he can and cannot do. 

Mr Speaker, on the issue of diversification, we have done a lot of talking, but have not walked the talk. If we are truly going to grow this economy, which we can if we are committed, we have to diversify it. We need to put more money towards agriculture, manufacturing and tourism. It cannot be business as usual. In fact, sometimes, I tell myself that, maybe, we are unlucky as a nation because the men we have are not strong enough to bring up a revolution.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: Sir, this country needs a revolution. It needs men who can think better than we have done in the past. We need energy.

Mr Chisopa: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Points of order are not allowed.

Interruptions

Ms Namugala: Mr Speaker, our children and grandchildren deserve better. Hon. Minister of Finance, you are yawning. You are giving me an indication that you are tired, but I know you are not …

Mr Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Mafinga steer off that line of debate. You have been so impersonal so far. Honestly, if he has to yawn, he should not do so? Let us be fair to each other. He is human.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: I will be watching out for those who are yawning now, so that you resign as well.

Laughter 

Ms Namugala: Mr Speaker, I was saying that our children and grandchildren deserve better leadership than what we are able to provide, and I am including myself, because for the last fifty years, there has been no real revolution. The last group of men included Dr Kenneth Kaunda and his colleagues. The rest of us have enjoyed …

Mr Chikwanda interjected.

Ms Namugala: Yes, you were part of that group, Hon. Chikwanda, but did not play much of a role.

Laughter 

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member for Mafinga, do I take it that you have exhausted your debate? If you have, please, let me know.

Ms Namugala: Mr Speaker, what I am saying is that the country deserves better. We need to have a revolution. When the people voted for the Patriotic Front (PF), they thought that they were going to have a revolution. 

Mr Speaker, with regard to infrastructure development, I want to advise our colleagues. The Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) did a lot of things when it was in power. A lot of infrastructure …

Mr Mwenya interjected.

Mr Speaker: Order! 

Ms Namugala: Nonetheless, the MMD still lost in 2011. Therefore, I plead with my colleagues in the Ruling Party to listen to advice. As we go forward, I advise the hon. Minister of Finance to do a few things. First of all, we need to do away with the business as usual approach to running Government. Things have to be different. The hon. Minister has to bring about a revolution in the Ministry of Finance. He needs to deal with the leakages and ensure that public service delivery is done more transparently and honestly. Public servants are not doing their best and hon. Ministers are the ones getting a bad name. Hon. Ministers need to provide the necessary oversight. It is the duty of the hon. Minister of Finance to ensure that when resources are appropriated, the services that Zambians expect are delivered to them.

Sir, the hon. Minister needs to ensure proper resource allocation to the three key sectors in the diversification process. These three sectors are manufacturing, agriculture and tourism, which have the greatest impact on poverty.

Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister needs to ensure that there are legislative reforms in terms of public finance management. When a public servant is found abusing resources, the law should take its course. In this regard, it should not take ten years for a matter to be resolved. The hon. Minister must bring legislation to this House on this matter so that we can even include a fast-track court. When a public servant is found wanting, the court must sit immediately and within a few months, culprits must be behind bars. 

Sir, as things stand now, one can abuse public resources and immediately build three mansions and start driving the most expensive cars, while hon. Ministers and the President are being insulted and called all sorts of names. We need to deal with these issues. Once that is done, we will be moving forward. Moving forward requires real men and women.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: Mr Speaker, since the mining sector is still going to be our source of foreign exchange for a long time, until we fully diversify, my advice to the hon. Minister is that we must constitute a body that can develop enough expertise to be able to track the mining proceeds from mining up to the selling point. We should be able to see where this money is going and whether it is coming back to the country. As a nation, we have been defrauded for too long. 

Mr Speaker, it is about time the Zambian people got benefits from their mineral resources, which, as we all know, will not last forever. This requires the hon. Minister of Finance to be vigilant. He can rely on us to give him support in this area. We need to get more from the mining sector by taxing the mining companies appropriately.

Mr Speaker, just last year, the hon. Minister came to the House with a very progressive mining tax regime. The mining companies came and persuaded the Executive through some manoeuvres, and before we knew it, there was a change in the mining tax regime without even the approval of this House. The mining companies had their way at the expense of the Zambian people.

Mr Speaker, as I said, this is a non-partisan Motion. This is a Motion that is going to set us apart whether we care or not.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister of Finance as a grandfather should withdraw this Motion, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: … go and think about it and see whether we really need to have the threshold raised to the extent of three times the current Budget. I am sure that when he searches his soul, he will find that we do not need to have this Motion passed in this House. I do not support it. Even if I know that they have the numbers to have this Motion passed, I want to go on record as one who did not support it.

Mr Speaker, with these words, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: On a point of procedure, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: Firstly, you cannot raise a point of order at that juncture, and secondly, I have already indicated that I am not permitting points of order in this session, unfortunately. I think I want to be consistent and equitable in that decision. The Clerks-at-the-Table are generally available for consultation. They are, in fact, always consulted. Since I have never said this publicly, let it be known that the Clerks-at-the-Table are available for consultations.

That is my position.

Mrs Masebo: Sorry, Sir. It was not a point of order. It was on a point of procedure.

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member for Chongwe, the only persons who will speak are the ones I am appointing until further notice. I have given you an avenue. If there is something pressing, there are Clerks-at-the-Table whom you can engage. 

Mrs Masebo left the Assembly Chamber.

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo (Mumbwa): Mr Speaker, I stand to agree with my colleagues who have spoken before me in not supporting this Motion. Let me give the reasons I stand not to support the Motion which has been brought to this House by the hon. Minister of Finance.

Firstly Sir, in his address, the hon. Minister said that raising the debt ceiling does not mean that the Government shall borrow. If that is the case, why is he then asking this House to raise the threshold to a very high ceiling? The hon. Minister further went on to say that there is a need for him to raise funds to complete the projects that were approved by this House. Is the hon. Minister admitting that before operationalisng the 2016 Budget, we already have no money? Is this an admission that, as we have said in the past, there is a serious distress in operationalisng the Budget?

Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister gave us numbers to convince us that we are safe in our borrowing limits of 38.5 per cent for external borrowing and 52.5 per cent for domestic borrowing. At the rate we are going, I will not be surprised that perhaps, we have reached this threshold already.

Bishop Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha: We have passed it.

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo: Sir, maybe, we have even passed the acceptable threshold.

Mr Speaker, I do sympathise with the hon. Minister of Finance in a way. What is he using to manage the debt? What debt sustainability framework is the hon. Minister using to balance between the need for development and the risk of going back to being a highly indebted country? I do not know whether we shall qualify to be a medium or low income country. It seems that we are taking serious risks for our future debt management. We already have a lesson in front of us. At the time of contracting the Eurobond, the exchange rate was at K7 per United States Dollar. Now the rate is at K11.50 per United States Dollar. We did not foresee this. Are we going to manage to service the debts which we are contracting? I have my doubts because of the downward projection of the Gross Domestic Product (GDP) growth from 7 per cent last year to 3.5 per cent. 

Mr Speaker, so, where is the hope that this country is not going into a debt trap. I remember contributing on the Floor of this House that it would be useful for us to know what the borrowed money was being used on. The hon. Minister brought an activity based budget to this House. What is the hon. Minister going to do if he was to borrow this amount of money which, as was stated by our colleagues, is a blank cheque? Would it not be better for us to firstly know what he wants to use this money for before we can allow him to borrow it? 

Mr Speaker, we have in the past stated that we can only embark on developmental projects if we have the required resources. In fact, I recall the President of the Republic of Zambia announcing that he was going to introduce austerity measures. Our understanding was that from that point, projects which did not have a high economic benefit would be stopped leading to the country saving some money. 

Mr Speaker, we have continued to spend a lot of money on our civil servants who are appointed without being given any work to do. All this is happening when the decentralisation process needs funding. Many Government officials in the newly created districts are operating from tents. How much productivity are we getting from such situations? 

Mr Speaker, as indicated by the reports by the Auditor-General, we are spending a lot of money on unproductive civil servants. There is massive misapplication and misappropriation of funds as well as downright theft. Why? This is because there are systems and infrastructure for people to work with. The other reason is the mindset of our people.

Mr Speaker, instead of borrowing, we need to reduce our expenditure. Our people are aware that, in fact, they are being burdened by this borrowing. In any case, there has not been an equitable distribution of development. People are saying that they cannot see the much-talked about development.

Bishop Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha: Not in Keembe.

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo: Sir, this creates a problem. Why not slow down on our expenditure so that we continue with programmes in the social sector? In fact, we should only continue with the development of infrastructure that has been put on the plans already rather than borrow for new ones and burden our country with debt which will be unsustainable. 

Mr Speaker, the numbers speak for themselves. It does not appear possible that we can, with reasonableness, assess the risk of this debt to an extent where this country has reached. It has already been stated that we are not borrowing from bilateral partners. If we are, I beg to be forgiven. We are borrowing on the open market.

Sir, we have read of instances where a country fails to repay its debts and the vulture ladies and gentlemen are brought in to auction national assets. Surely, even if we will not be there, we should leave a legacy of manageable debt for the country than what is being proposed at the moment. 

Mr Speaker, other than reduction in expenditure, we must also plan to increase on productivity. I was part of an industrious team that was on the other side and we did our bit. However, in retrospect, I think that we could have done better. Our people in the rural areas are still wallowing in poverty, yet a few of us who are privileged seem to think it is okay for us to give them a little something. For how long shall we continue to appease the people in the rural areas with little gifts? 

Mr Speaker, there are difficulties in spite of the assurances that we have had about the e-voucher system. I talked to my colleague, the hon. Minister of Agriculture, about the difficulties which we need to face head on. 

Bishop Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha: Huge difficulties.

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo: Sir, the level of support to farmers involves giving a pack to two farmers. How much can they cultivate out of that? This is where money should be spent. We need to plug the holes which are leading to the misappropriation of Government expenditure. I am sure we can balance development and minimise the risk of future debt. It is doable. If it is acceptable, I can only persuade the hon. Minister of Finance to go back and bring to this House a proposal for a realistic increase to the threshold and not the one he is currently proposing. 

Mr Speaker, it is not right to do this. We cannot pretend to fix something for the immediate future and leave a huge burden for our children, grandchildren and their children. 

Mr Speaker, with these few words, I stand not to support the Motion because not enough analysis has been made on our future prospects. We have not been convinced as regards the management of this debt and use of this money which the hon. Minister of Finance will inevitably borrow. We do not know whether it will be used for immediate, medium-term or long-term benefits.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mutati (Lunte): Mr Speaker, this is a solemn Motion affecting the lives of all Zambians. In the presentation, the hon. Minister indicated that there are compelling reasons for the presentation of the Motion. These compelling reasons have been consistent from 2013, 2015 and 2016. However, the economic narrative has shifted in this period. 

Mr Speaker, we are facing very strong headwinds in our economy. Our gross domestic product (GDP) has gone down by 50 per cent. The debt levels continue to increase. The hon. Minister has indicated that the external debt is at 38.5 per cent. The accepted benchmark is 40 per cent. Indeed, we are holding the handles of debt distress. We are about to enter into a territory of debt distress.

Sir, the hon. Minister made reference to issues around austerity measures. In 2015, those reasons where outlined. In 2015, we ended up with a Supplementary Budget which was almost 30 per cent of the Annual Budget. We ended up with a deficit of close to 8 per cent. As regards this situation for 2016, even if we are targeting a 3 per cent deficit this year, on the basis of the volume of debt that we are going to contract, this will not happen. 

Mr Speaker, our biggest challenge is the limited capacity to implement austerity measures. In consequence, this has been compounded by the trinity of deficits, the current account, the fiscal and trade deficits. In these circumstances, we need to check whether this economy has the capacity for increased borrowings.

Mr Speaker, today, the private sector is chocking because the banking sector has no liquidity on one hand, and on the other, the cost of lending money is approaching 40 per cent. Therefore, the narrative that we need to diversify the economy is becoming impossible because you cannot diversify any economy without liquidity and the cost of lending money is approaching 40 per cent.

Mr Speaker, the consequences are that job opportunities are shrinking and, therefore, the levels of poverty in the last four years have continued to increase. This means that our economic model is not working. The answer to our challenge is not more and more debt because it is not working. 

Mr Speaker, on top of the tight liquidity and high cost of borrowing money, the exchange rate is also wrecking havoc. What is more is that even if you were borrowing externally, you can only do so plus 10 per cent because of our economic circumstances. So, we are in a situation where we make the correct sounds, but deliver lukewarm output.

Sir, we have a problem. I see that the hon. Minister is in a very difficult position. Two months ago, we approved the Budget in this House. In terms of the perimeters that were approved in this House, it was expected that the austerity measures contained therein would not allow us to entertain a Motion like this, two months later. 

Mr Speaker, I followed the preamble which the hon. Minister of Finance gave when presenting this Motion. I think that his friends must assist him in the implementation of the austerity measures. They seem to be very co-operative, but are not giving out any output. That is where the problem is. 

Laughter

Mr Mutati: Sir, they need ...

Mr Muntanga: No output.

Mr Mutati: Mr Speaker, they need to make an impact. The average answer from every hon. Minister on any question regarding the implementation of any projects is that there is no money. Yet, the Supplementary Budget was 30 per cent in excess of the initial Budget. Yesterday, the hon. Minister mentioned that we have reached a point where he is having conversations with the International Monetary Fund (IMF). I think what we need is a bail out because our situation is critical. We are in a crisis. 

Sir, this is a solemn Motion. I hope that the hon. Minister will indicate that he is going to come, first of all, to withdraw the Motion, and second, to debate with us, the practical austerity measures that he is going to take as a preamble to the consideration of an adjustment of the debt ceiling. We need to follow the right sequence. Now, the sequence is upside down. Increasing the maximum amount outstanding at any one time for external debt to K160 billion is going to make this country end up in debt distress. We shall end this year and the years to follow in debt distress because the pressure to spend this money will be on the hon. Minister. For his own protection, hon. Minister, it is better you say, “I do not have money because Parliament refused to approve the new debt limits. I cannot spend what I do not have.” 

I thank you, Sir. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Information and Broadcasting (Mr Kambwili): Mr Speaker, thank you very much for giving me an opportunity to add my voice to the Motion on the Floor. 

Sir, having listened to the many speakers who have spoken before me, I have got the impression that this country will never develop ...

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

Mr Kambwili: ... as long as people are inconsistent and hypocritical. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, prior to the January, 2015, presidential elections, one very prominent leader of a political party, which is regarded as the biggest political party, appeared on Muvi Television, on a programme known as the  ...

Hon. Government Members: The Assignment!

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, he was asked by Mr Coster Mwansa the following question:

“Mr President, you have been condemning the Patriotic Front (PF) for borrowing money to work on roads, schools, and hospitals. If you win the elections on the 20th of January, 2015, are you going to borrow to develop the country? If you are not going to borrow, does it mean you will stop the construction of roads and hospitals that the PF have started?”

Sir, because this man wanted to win the election, his answer was as follows: 

“We will continue with the construction of the roads. We will continue borrowing, but we will borrow from sources which have low interest rates.”

Mr Speaker, he agreed that he would continue to borrow. Now, let me give you an example. The interest rate on the last loan that we contracted from the Export-Import Bank of Korea was 0.01 per cent. When he talks about borrowing at lower interest rates, is he going to borrow at an interest rate of 0.0 per cent? Automatically, the answer is a big no, and you can see that this man is only politicking for the sake of going into State House. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga and Mr Nkombo made interjections.

Mr Speaker: Order!

What are you saying? Are you saying that you will not accede to my direction? 

Mr Muntanga interjected.

Mr Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Kalomo Central, you cannot debate while you are seated. That is why the hon. Member for ─ I will not mention his name, he was walked out. I indicated that there will be no points of order. 

Hon. Minister, please, continue.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, I was trying to say that this country needs to develop. 

Mr Lubinda: Bauze, mwana. 

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, we should not just politick for the sake of it. That is why someone can say that he will borrow money from sources where the interest rates will be lower than 0.01 per cent. That is impossible. 

Sir, there is no country in the world which has developed without borrowing. I can challenge any of these hon. Members to tell me which country has developed without borrowing. It took Japan thirty years to develop. 

Laughter

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, Japan, the United States of America (USA) and China borrowed, in order to develop.  Now, you want Zambia to develop without borrowing. How practical is it? It is not possible. Even at household level, for someone to build a house, he or she needs to borrow.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Sir, at household level, if you do not borrow to build a house, it is likely you are a big businessman or a thief.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order! 

Hon. Minister, sit down for a moment. Let us have silence. There are no points of order, so it is only me who can maintain order. 

Mr Nkombo interjected. 

Mr Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Mazabuka Central, leave the House, please. You will come back later for your Motion. 

Laughter

Mr Nkombo left the Assembly Chamber. 

Interruptions 

Mr Speaker: Order!

We had a lot of silence earlier on. Suddenly, we are failing to be silent. 

Continue, hon. Minister.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, I was saying that if we need our country to develop, let us be very fair to each other. Let us support one another in order to take this country forward. 

Sir, as the Patriotic Front (PF), we have borrowed money. Has the money we have borrowed gone into our pockets ...

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

Mr Kambwili: ... or in our private businesses? 

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, the answer is a big no. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, just look at Lusaka today ...

Mr Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair] 

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, before the break, I was saying that, indeed, as PF, we have borrowed. The question, however, is: Have we borrowed for our own pockets … 

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

Mr Kambwili: …or for consumption? 

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

Mr Kambwili: The truth of the matter is that we have borrowed for infrastructure development, …

Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Kambwili: … and this is there for everyone to see. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Sir, the infrastructure that we have built is there for everyone to see. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Mr Kambwili: Sir, if we had not borrowed for the L-400 km Road Project, it would not have been possible for these hon. Members of Parliament to come to Parliament with their vehicles. 

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: Sir, many people would have parked their vehicles if we did not work on the roads.

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Kambwili: They would have started coming here with bicycles. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: There would have been no two ways about it. 

Mr Speaker: Hon. Minister, let us avoid reference to each other to evade all these challenges that we are going through now. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, we have had to borrow money for the L-400 km Road Project. Before this project, travelling from town, on Chilimbulu Road, to Woodlands at 1700 hours, which is a peak hour, used take more than two hours. Today, we have built dual carriageways on Chilimbulu and Burma Roads from the borrowed money. This has made the movement of goods and services easier. I have another example. If you had to travel from Mufulira, which is on the Copperbelt, to Kasama, you had to go to Kitwe first, then Ndola and Kapiri Mposhi, after which you passed through Serenje in Central Province to get to Mpika. This used to take ten hours. 

Mr Mulenga: Twelve hours!

Mr Kambwili: Sir, it took twelve hours to travel from Mufulira to Kasama. Today, there is a tar road, through the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC), called the Pedicle Road.

Mr Mwila: Yes!

Mr Kambwili: Sir, we have built another road from Mansa to Luwingu and another one from Luwingu to Kasama using the same borrowed money that these people are talking about. Now, it takes four hours to travel from Mufulira to Kasama. This means that the cost of a bus fare from Mufulira to Kasama will be much less compared to the bus fare for someone using the Great North Road. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, we have opened up areas like Mporokoso. I come from Mporokoso. No bus used to go there.  The last time I was in Mporokoso, Mazhandu buses were going there. This means that the owners of the bus service will buy more buses to service the Mporokoso route. They will employ more people and Mporokoso will be forced to have a filling station which will create jobs and work for Mporokoso Municipal Council. This is how wealth is created. If they do not want us to borrow, then we might as well forget about development. The whole time that we are here, people are crying for roads in their constituencies. 

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Kambwili: Sir, if they want us to fold our arms and not borrow, they should stop crying about development. The Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) could not work on the Bottom Road because its members folded their arms and did not borrow. 

Mr Mwila: Yes!

Mr Kambwili: Sir, leaders are seen by the bold decisions that they make. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Sir, when we came into office, we saw the need for schools, hospitals and electricity in rural areas. That is why we made a bold decision to borrow. As the saying goes “If you want your life to be perfect, you must be prepared to take risks.”

Bishop Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: I am not allowing points of order. 

Hon. Government Members: No points of order!

Mr Kambwili: Sir, by and large, if we had not borrowed as the PF to work on the roads such as the Isoka/Muyombe Road, Bottom Road, Niko/Monze Road, where could they have expected us to get money to work on these roads? 

Sir, the money we have borrowed has been put to good use. Some people are saying that posterity will judge us harshly for borrowing. Did we complain that the United National Independence Party (UNIP) borrowed to build the University of Zambia (UNZA)? We have built schools and universities. I am sure that the children who will come after us will not think of us as having been reckless once they are told that we had to borrow to build universities. Even as they pay for their education, do you think that they say that we were reckless? 

Mr L. J. Ngoma: Yes!

Mr Kambwili: Sir, they will know that, indeed, we borrowed for a good cause. I am appealing to all hon. Members of Parliament not to bring politics into this issue of borrowing because we need development in this country.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Sir, today, there are no houses for teachers to rent in rural areas. We have started a project whereby we are building schools and teachers’ houses. This has never happened in rural areas before. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, if we send a teacher to the rural area and two months down the line, he or she comes back to town, rural hon. Members of Parliament will complain about the lack of teachers in the rural areas and yet they want us to fold our arms and not borrow. We all need to support one another on this issue. There is a time in life when people should expect to suffer a bit for the present to enjoy the future. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Sir, what we are doing is investing in order for us to enjoy the future. If all of us fold our arms and not borrow for the reason that when we borrow posterity will judge us harshly, this country will not develop. We need to make bold decisions. This is why one party spent twenty years in Government and very little, in terms of development, was done because of being scared to borrow. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Sir, we have decided to take a risk by borrowing within the threshold. The hon. Minister of Finance has indicated that we are borrowing within the internationally accepted levels. Why should it be that the same people who are crying for roads in their constituencies are the ones saying that they do not want to borrow? I am sure that the people of Zambia are listening. Removing the PF from Government, which is borrowing to develop the country, through infrastructure development, so that it can create jobs, and bringing in our colleagues who are on your left-hand side will be a mistake. They will stop all these projects because they do not want to borrow …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: … and the country will be drawn back by ten years. 

Sir, I am very happy because today the Opposition has really campaigned for us. Its people are showing us that when they come to power they will stop all the projects. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Sir, people of Zambia, do you want the projects to stop? The choice is yours. If you want the projects to stop, vote any of these Opposition parties into power. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, we need to support this borrowing so that we can develop this country. The onus to grow the economy is on all of us. Since they have been asking us to diversify the economy, we had to get a loan in order to improve cashew nut production. Cashew nut production in the Western Province entails diversification of the economy. 

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, if hon. Members of Parliament love the people, want the country to develop, want children in the rural areas to go to school, want people to have hospitals and roads in rural areas and electricity, then they should vote for this Motion. 

Sir, since people have been complaining about load shedding, we are working on six projects to build power generation points in Luapula Province and the North-Western Province where there are good rain patterns. They are telling us not to borrow, but do not want to sleep in darkness? 

Laughter 

Mr Kambwili: Sir, the PF has decided to borrow in order to create powers stations so that we can attract investment to many areas as a way of creating jobs and growing the economy.

Sir, my appeal to hon. Members is for them not to be ...

Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Lubinda: Continue!

Laughter 

Mr Mwila: Houses for policemen. 

Mr Kambwili: ... political all the time. They need to realise that we need to develop.

Mr Speaker, police officers have been living in squalor since Independence. We have borrowed to build them modern houses.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Sir, are they saying that the police do not deserve good accommodation? What kind of politicians are they?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Hon. Minister, please, be impersonal.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, the money we have borrowed and intend to borrow is not for our own consumption, ...

Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Kambwili: ... but for the development of this country and the growth of the economy in order to create jobs. There is no country in the world that can develop without adequate infrastructure. We need infrastructure in order to create wealth. We cannot create wealth in a bush. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Sir, the people need development.

Mr Mwila: Bwekeshapo!

Mr Kambwili: Sir, Zambia, like every other developed country, cannot develop without borrowing. I appeal to hon. Members to allow us to borrow to develop within the acceptable international thresholds.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order!

Sir, as we progress with submissions from the right, I know we are also entitled to the full length of your time but, please, bear in mind that this is your Motion. The hon. Minister of Finance has articulated the Motion on behalf of the Executive and towards the end, I will still give him an opportunity to respond, the issues which have been raised. Again, even though this is a very emotive subject, we should still conduct ourselves honourably. Let us debate honourably. The last thirty minutes have not been ─ anyway, I will end there.

The Minster of Commerce, Trade and Industry (Mrs Mwanakatwe): Mr Speaker, as I listened to the debates, I wondered whether we are looking at the reality of our situation. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Mwanakatwe: Sir, the Government ensures that it follows procedure by bringing such issues to the House when required. We have all seen the near doubling of the exchange rate. I expected that hon. Members on your left would have been crying out to us to come to this House to seek new debt limits. This is normal. It is a technical breach in which the debt limit has been overtaken. One of the reasons the hon. Minister of Finance has come to this House is to correct this technical breach.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mrs Mwanakatwe: Sir, the hon. Members should look at the list of items that the hon. Minister of Finance has brought before this House. Once they do this, they will notice that item four and five are contingent liabilities. Do they know what a contingent liability is?

Laughter 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Mwanakatwe: Sir, a contingent liability is conditional. These are guarantees that the Government gives, mainly to State-owned enterprises. It is not borrowing.

Mr Speaker, we are a transparent Government. We have told this House, through Her Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning, and the hon. Minister of Energy and Water Development, how much we are spending on importing power. Between to US$18 million to US$25 million is being spent on the importation of power.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Mwanakatwe: Sir, as the hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting said, it seems some hon. Members want to live in darkness when this Government wants to live in the light.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Mwanakatwe: Sir, it wants industries to flourish and people to have electricity. I do not see how anyone in their sober mind can say that this is money not being put to good use when the Ministry of Finance is gathering resources, at great cost, to ensure that this country is lit. 

Mr Mufalali: So, we are drunk? 

Mrs Mwanakatwe: Mr Speaker, hon. Opposition Members keep asking us to tell them what this money is going to be used for. Do they not read?

Laughter 

Mrs Mwanakatwe: Sir, the Constitution is very clear that when any loan is borrowed from now onwards, it will come to this House for us to approve. So when you hear that we have borrowed a US$45 million loan for the growing of cashew nuts, the loan will be brought to this House by the procedure stipulated in the Constitution, which some hon. Members have not read yet.

Laughter 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Hon. Minister, take a seat. Let us be impersonal. I think I have made this appeal to both sides. Difficult as it may be, let us just discuss the issue as it is. Once you start debating each other, it excites emotions. Some emotions cannot be restrained here. There is no self-control. That is why I have to constantly get into the fray. So, hon. Minister, please, be impersonal.

Mrs Mwanakatwe: Mr Speaker, I was going on to say that this is a difficult year for everybody, be it individuals, companies and the Government. We have put the issue of borrowing in the context of that difficulty. Everybody must have to tighten their belts. As the Government, we sit in Cabinet and we talk about austerity measures. This is something that we look at on a regular basis …

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Mrs Mwanakatwe: … to the extent that we have created a special unit within Her Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning’s Office to ensure that what we say, we are going to do is actually happening, ministry by ministry. So, when I hear that we are not implementing austerity measures as stipulated by the other side (left), I get confused because they have already seen that we have cut back severely in terms of expenditure. When we are borrowing in this manner, we are borrowing for a good purpose. 

Mr Speaker, on this side (right) of the House, we are thinking about diversification. That is why I said earlier, we have funding for the improved production of cashew nuts. We are thinking about agriculture, Hon. Namugala. We are also thinking about tourism and manufacturing in all the areas of the country. 

Mr Speaker, I think the glass is half empty on the other side (left). On this side (right), the glass is half full because we are seeing this hardship year as an interim situation. We believe that what we are putting in place, in terms of power generation, infrastructure and industry, the following year and the year after, we will be well-poised for much better years. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Mwanakatwe: Mr Speaker, the last issue I want to talk about is the fact that debt servicing is something that, again, we take seriously. So, if any money is coming in, we make sure that our debts have been paid. So, if we are talking about 38.5 per cent under 40 per cent external debt and 52.5 per cent as local debts, these are well within the limits. I know that the Ministry of Finance ensures all the time that our debt is well serviced. In going into these increased ceilings, we are not saying we should borrow. We are being anticipatory in ensuring that if we are to borrow, we have got the limits that have been set by this House to ensure that we do not over shoot those limits. This is also to ensure that should the exchange rate go the other way, we are well within our limits so that we do not come back here. So, you may see a huge figure like that going to K160 billion, but the fact is that we are not going to borrow a K160 billion. Let us not scare the public out there. We are not saying we are going to borrow K160 billion. We are saying that this is a limit.

Mr Livune: Question!

Mrs Mwanakatwe: Sir, this is the limit which is there for our protection. We are a responsible Government. This is a Government that is thinking of its people all the time. 

Mr Muntanga: Question!

Mrs Mwanakatwe: Sir, this is a Government that wants to ensure that we have in place what we need to take the country forward. There is a light at the end of a tunnel on this side (right) and the light is green.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity to wind up the debate on this very engaging and emotive issue of borrowing. The concerns expressed by hon. Members on the other side of the political divide are in two parts. The first one is a genuine concern. Borrowing is a very difficult matter because at the end of the day, you will have to pay what you borrow. Therefore, the question of the sustainability of servicing your debt obligation is an issue. 

Sir, the other side of this concern is related to the way hon. Members are bringing political issues in their debates. They seem to be playing to some dubious galleries by deliberately misrepresenting facts. That is an issue. We have, so far, borrowed in accordance with the provisions of the law. We had the ceiling lifted from K35 billion to K60 billion some time back. That is the current limit. Now, there has been an erosion of this ceiling on account of adverse movements in the price of the kwacha in relation to other currencies. The downward movement in our currency levels has induced erosion in some of the ceilings. 

Sir, K60 billion is money which has already been borrowed and has exceeded by K12.8 billion over the threshold on account of movements in the exchange rate. Now, as the Government, we want to stay within the limit of the law. So, we want to seek Parliament’s mandate for a higher ceiling which will also accommodate even that borrowing which has exceeded the current threshold. 

Mr Speaker, Parliament should take comfort, as my colleague, the hon. Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry has ably explained in the contents of the new Constitution. Any new borrowing will have to be approved by Parliament. That is a kind of check on the possible excesses of the Government. We have come to Parliament already to seek approval for supplementary estimates. The money we are spending on the importation of power and oil was not budgeted for. We did not foresee the economy collapsing and commodity prices tumbling in the process. That is why we need supplementary estimates. Unlike before, the Government spent money and then, came to Parliament to seek the sanctioning for money which had already been spent. The new Constitution actually imposes restrictions on any possible excesses by the Executive. 

Mr Speaker, the hon. Member for Mafinga was rightly calling for austerity measures. The austerity measures we have already imposed are already too rigorous. I do not think that the Government can implement any further austerity measures. In any case, the supplementary estimates which we have requested Parliament to approve will not be financed by the injection of new resources, a possibility which is not a realistic one because there is severe revenue conspiracy. Therefore, the supplementary estimates will be financed by re-adjusting the already approved estimates. We will see a further rationing on expenditure for some capital projects that were already approved in the Budget. Some austerity measures when excessive have caused difficulties in some countries in Europe to the extent that by the time they decided to put up measures to stimulate their economies, they had deteriorated to very dangerous levels.

Sir, borrowing is done by all countries including the most powerful countries in the world.
 
Hon. UPND Members: Aah!

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Speaker, let me give a few examples. In 2008, the Untied States of America’s (USA) debt in relation to the gross domestic product (GDP) was 64 per cent and by the end of last year, it had moved to 104 per cent. In 2008, the Eurozone’s borrowing as a component of the GDP was 66 per cent and by the end of last year, it had moved to 93 per cent. Japan’s borrowing as a component of the GDP in 2008 was at 176 per cent. Last year, the Japanese debt in relation to the GDP was 237 per cent. Let me qualify this point. Unlike the USA, Japanese’s borrowing is all internal. I am not trying to use the examples to justify our excessive borrowing beyond what we are able to service. Debt servicing, especially with the movements in the exchange rates can become very severe. At the moment, we need to put together marshal more kwacha in order to service our debt than was budgeted for.  Therefore, we have to exercise prudence and considerably restrain our borrowing because the other aspect is that when we borrow, we have to pay back what we have borrowed. All the concerns that have been highlighted by the hon. Members are legitimate.

 Mr Speaker, there is a need for us to lift the borrowing ceiling. I am, therefore, grateful to my colleagues, the hon. Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry for having explained the guarantees. When the balance sheets of State-owned enterprises are a bit suspect, they borrow with Government guarantees. Therefore, the Government will only be called upon to put up the resources if those companies are unable to service their debt obligations.

Sir, let me also express my profound gratitude to the hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting for explaining where the money that we borrow goes. It is unfortunate that some people are refusing to acknowledge what is in front of their eyes. In Choma, the infrastructure we are seeing has been financed as a result of the borrowing. The new hospital in Kalomo was built using borrowed funds. I want to commend the hon. Minister of information and Broadcasting for explaining this to the House. It seems that people just want to argue for the sake of politicking.  

Mr Speaker, I feel pity for hon. Members on other side of the divide because they belong to a party, which will never form Government.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chikwanda: Sir, this is for the simple reason that it is the only party which has exclusivity in the history of Zambia in terms of where the leaders come from.

 Hon.  Government Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. UPND Members rose. 

Hon. UPND Members: Withdrawn that statement!

Mr Speaker: Order!

Let us have some order.

Mr Chikwanda: Sir, the Patriotic Front (PF) …

Mr Speaker: Order!

I do not think it was necessary for the hon. Minister of Finance to go where he went.

 Hon. UPND Members: Withdraw what you said! 

Mr Speaker: Order! 

Let us confine ourselves to the Motion. I must say that I was following very closely with a lot of interest the explanation of the hon. Minister, but got anxious the moment he went in a different direction. Please, I would like us to maintain order. Let us have harmony. I hope the hon. Minister has heard me.

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Speaker, I want to thank you for the very profound and well meaning guidance. Excesses do not justify other excesses. I just want to stray a bit, but I will come back to the Motion.

 Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Chikwanda: Sir, the PF is a role model because …

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chikwanda: …when the founder President of our party, our departed hero, passed there was no insistence that because he came from Mpika or Chinsali, the next leader should be … 

Interruptions

Hon. UPND Members rose

Hon. UPND Members: Withdraw that! 

Mr Speaker: Order!

Can the hon. Minister of Finance take his seat and wait, please.

 Hon. UPND Members rose.

Mr Speaker: Order!

Can the hon. Minister of Finance wait. I will give him the Floor when I am ready.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

The hon. Minister of Finance is winding up his Motion and I am sure he can.

Mr Chikwanda: Sir, I am winding up the Motion. 

Hon. UPND Members: Withdraw it! 

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Speaker, …

Mr Speaker: Order! 

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order! 

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order! 

Wind up, hon. Minister.

Interruptions

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Speaker, of course, I took the risk. Candour is a very smooth progression to arrogance. If I have caused anguish …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Chikwanda:… on the part of my colleagues …

Hon. Opposition Members: Withdraw it!

Interruptions

Mr Chikwanda: There is nothing to withdraw.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Interruptions

Mr Muntanga: He is a finished old man. He is a tribalist.

Interruptions

Hon. Members rose.

Mr Speaker: Can you sit down, hon. Members.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order! 

Hon. Minister of Finance, I am sure you have seen what has happened. Could you withdraw the statement.

Hon. UPND Members: Yes!

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Speaker, since I did not say anything offensive, ...

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order! Order!

Mr Chikwanda: … I am morally constrained to accept that. Really, it will be against my conscience. I was just talking about political parties which have exclusivity. So, what am I going to withdraw?

Interruptions

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Speaker, I want to wind up by thanking hon. Members for supporting this Motion.

Interruptions

Mr Mufalali: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: No point of order!

Interruptions

Ms Lubezhi: He is undermining your authority.

Mr Speaker: Hon. Minister of Finance, if you continue that way, I will also abandon this debate …

Mr Nkombo: No, Sir! That is your job.

Mr Speaker: … because of the disorder. I can stop it. Hon. Minister, there was a point I told you to avoid going to. I am sure you will recall what I said. That is all I want you to confirm. Please, go ahead.

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Speaker, I thank you for your very profound guidance. I did not go that route … 

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Leave it at that, hon. Minister.

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Speaker, Parliament must not decree my conscience. I have never been offensive to any hon. Member of this House unlike one hon. Member, who is very close to me, and wants to draw my affection. I will, in fact, be more affectionate because he needs my affection. I have never been offensive. I have not offended anybody. I even said to the extent that if what I said might have caused anguish to other people, it is matter of regret. So, what am I going to withdraw?

Mr Speaker: Very well.

Hon. UPND Members called for a division.

Question that, in terms of sections 3 and 15 of the Loans and Guarantees (Authorisation) Act, Chapter 366 of the Laws of Zambia, this House authorises the Minister of Finance to increase by Statutory Instrument:

(a)    the maximum amount outstanding at any one time on external loans outside the Republic and payable over a period of more than one year from sixty billion kwacha to one hundred and sixty billion kwacha;

(b)    the maximum amount outstanding at any one time on domestic loans raised within the Republic and payable over a period of not more than one year from thirteen billion kwacha to thirty billion kwacha;

(c)    the maximum amount outstanding at any one time on domestic loans raised within the Republic and payable over a period of more than one year from twenty billion kwacha to forty billion kwacha;

(d)    the total contingent liability at any one time in respect of guarantees given in terms of Section 14 of the Loans and Guarantees (Authorisation) Act, Chapter 366 of the Laws of Zambia to persons ordinarily resident outside Zambia from five billion kwacha to fifty billion kwacha; and

(e)    the total contingent liability at any one time in respect of guarantees given in terms of Section 14 of the Loans and Guarantees (Authorisation) Act, Chapter 366 of the Laws of Zambia to persons ordinarily resident in Zambia from two billion kwacha to thirty billion kwacha, put and the House voted.

Prof Luo: Twalafiwina lelo.

Laughter

Ayes – (79)

Mrs E. M. Banda
Mr I. Banda 
Mr N. Banda
Mr. Bwalya
Mr Chabala
Col. Chanda
Mr Chansa
Mr Chikwanda
Mr Chilangwa
Mr Chingimbu
Mr Chisala
Mr Chishimba
Mr Chisopa
Mr Chitotela
Mr Chungu
Mr Evans
Mr. Hamududu
Mr Hamusonde
Ms Kabanshi
Mr Kafwaya
Dr Kaingu
Mr Kambwili
Mr Kampyongo
Ms Kapata
Brig-Gen. Kapaya
Mr Kapeya
Mr Kapyanga
Mr Kasandwe
Dr Kasonde
Mr Katambo
Dr Katema
Col. Kaunda
Mrs Kawandami
Ms Kazunga
Mr Kosamu
Mr Kufuna
Ms Limata
Mr Lingweshi
Mr Lubinda
Dr Lungu
Col. Lungu
Prof. Luo
Mr Mabumba
Mr Malama
Mr Masumba
Ms Miti
Mr Monde
Mr Mukanga
Ms Mulasikwanda
Mr Mulenga
Mr Mumba
Mr Mushanga
Mr E. Musonda
Mr R. Musukwa
Mr Mutale
Dr. Mwali
Mr Mwaliteta
Mr Mwamba
Mrs Mwanakatwe
Mr Mwango
Mr Mwenya
Mr Mwewa
Mr Mwila
Mr Ngoma
Mr Ng’onga
Mr P. Phiri
Mr Shamenda
Mr Shuma
Mr Siamunene
Mr Sichalwe
Mr Sichula
Mr Sikazwe
Mr Simbao
Mr Simuusa
Prof. Willombe
Mrs Wina
Mr Yaluma
Mr Zimba
Mr Zulu

Noes – (30)

Mr Antonio
Mr Belemu
Mr Chitafu
Brig-Gen. Dr B. Chituwo
Mr Habeenzu
Mr Hamudulu
Dr Kalila
Mr Kasonso
Mr Livune
Mr Lombanya
Ms Lubezhi
Mr Lufuma
Mrs Mazoka
Mr Milambo
Mr Miyanda
Mr Miyutu
Mr Mooya
Mr Mufalali
Mr Mulomba
Mr Muntanga
Mr Mutati
Mr Mutelo
Ms Namugala
Mr Ndalamei
Mr Ngoma
Mr Nkombo
Mr Pande
Bishop Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha
Mr Sianga
Mr Sing'ombe

Abstentions – (0)

Question accordingly agreed to.

_________

BILLS

SECOND READING

THE LAYOUT-DESIGNS OF INTEGRATED CIRCUITS BILL

The Minister of Commerce and Trade (Mrs Mwanakatwe): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

Sir, I thank you for the opportunity to make a statement on the Layout Design of Integrated Circuits Bill, 2016. Let me start by expressing my gratitude to your Committee for the work it did in reviewing the Bill and for facilitating consultations on the fundamental aspects of the Bill.

Mr Speaker, integrated circuits (ICs) basically refer to micro-electronic circuits manufactured in complex series of layers with various components embedded on a semi-conductor material, also known as a chip. For purposes of illustration, modern electronic devices such as computers, phones and television sets are all dependent on the existence of ICs. The National Intellectual Property Rights Policy emphasises the need to recognise and protect various forms of intellectual property. ICs are creations of the human mind just like other forms of intellectual property.

Sir, to create ICs, a lot of capital investment, research and development, time and human resources are needed. The process involves the application of intellectual effort and planning to fit electronic components on a piece of a semi-conductor material such as silicon. However, ICs can easily be copied by making replicas of a layout design. This is why it is necessary to protect the layout-design in order to protect the intellect and resources that would have been spent in coming up with such a component.

Mr Speaker, this Bill is part of the Government’s programme to create an effective legal framework that will safeguard the interest of innovators and creators of technology. The Bill is designed to protect the topography (layout design), which is a three dimensional representation of the layers of an IC showing interconnections of various elements embedded within the IC.

The objectives of the Bill include the following:

(a)    to establish a register for layout designs or topographies of ICs.

(b)    provide for a transparent legal framework for the protection, registration, right over, infringement or use of, and access to, layout-designs or topographies of ICs;

(c)    establish streamlined procedures for obtaining a compulsory licence, licence to remedy anti-competitive practices and use of layout-designs or topographies of ICs for public or non-commercial purposes; and

(d)    give effect to the provisions of the World Trade Organisation (WTO) Agreement on Trade Related Aspects of Intellectual Property Rights and any other relevant international treaty or convention to which Zambia is a State party.

Mr Speaker, under intellectual property, to be protected refers to the exclusive right of the layout-design. Upon registration, the layout-design of the IC is protected for a ten-year-term against reproduction and commercial exploitation. 

Mr Speaker, in terms of implementation, the Bill will be administered and implemented by my ministry through the Patents and Companies Registration Agency (PACRA). To ensure the effective implementation of the Bill once it is passed into law, my ministry will speedily formulate and promulgate regulations for carrying out the objectives of the Bill.

Sir, further, we will invest in the institutional and human resource capacity required by PACRA for the effective implementation of the Bill. This will include emulating best practices for the design and management of a registry for layout-designs of ICs. Since the implementation of this law will impact governmental functions and responsibilities across many ministries and sectors, my ministry will work with stakeholders to ensure the success of the objects of the Bill. We will reach out to businesses, research and development institutions, local innovators and private sector partners involved in the development of innovations through campaigns tailored to their needs and concerns.

Mr Speaker, as I conclude, let me emphasise that the protection of layout-designs of ICs is important in stimulating innovations and creativity in the electronics sector and facilitating technology transfer in the industry. The protection of layout-designs of ICs has been essential to the rapid growth of the electronic industry worldwide. This law, once implemented, will promote and cultivate a culture of innovation that will result in wealth and job creation. It will foster creativity that should result in a local IC industry. I, therefore, look forward to the full support of the hon. Members of this House.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Speaker, this has been a hectic day. Nonetheless, in accordance with the terms of reference, as provided for in the Standing Orders, your Committee was tasked to scrutinise the Layout-Designs of Integrated Circuits Bill, 2016. In seeking to understand the ramifications of the Bill, your Committee sought oral as well as written submissions from various stakeholders.

Sir, your Committee observes that the Bill is necessary to the fulfillment of Zambia’s obligations arising from being party to the agreement on Trade Related Aspects of Intellectual Property Rights (TRIPS Agreement). The genesis of this agreement can be traced back to 1989, when the Treaty on Intellectual Property in respect of integrated circuits (ICs) was signed in Washington, DC. The Washington Treaty was incorporated into Article 35 of the TRIPS Agreement. As a member of the World Trade Organisation (WTO), Zambia is party to the TRIPS Agreement, which obligates member countries to come up with laws to protect intellectual property including layout-designs of ICs.

Mr Speaker, your Committee further observes that the protection of layout-designs of ICs has been key to the rapid growth of the electronic industry worldwide. Modern electronic devices such as computers, mobile phones, television sets, radio sets, cassettes, watches and many more are all dependent on the existence of ICs. However, the world has come to realise that ICs can easily be copied by making replicas of layout-designs. For this reason, it has become necessary to protect layout-designs in order to protect the intellect and resources that would have been spent in coming up with such components.

Sir, your Committee observes that other benefits of the Bill include the fact that beyond providing a fair remuneration for the creators of layout-designs and setting a foundation for the Government to attract potential foreign investment and technology transfer, the law is also crucial to improving the lifestyle of the public. 

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order, on the right!

Mr Nkombo: Sir, without adequate protection of intellectual property, advancement in activities related to ICs, such as communication, automobiles, health care and safety will not be attained.

Sir, your Committee supports the view that the protection of layout-designs of ICs will stimulate innovation and creativity in the electronics sector and facilitate technology transfer in the industry, thereby catalyse the realisation of the full potential of intellectual property in the sector for the country’s economic growth. Your Committee, therefore, commends the Government for bringing this law to protect the layout-designs of ICs registered in the country and urges the House to support this Bill.

In conclusion, allow me on behalf of the Committee to express gratitude to you, Mr Speaker, for granting it the opportunity to scrutinise the Layout-Designs of Integrated Circuits Bill, 2016. Your Committee also wishes to thank the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly and her staff for their assistance to the Committee. It is also highly indebted to the stakeholders who appeared before it for their co-operation in providing the necessary briefs.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Mwanakatwe: Mr Speaker, let me join the voice of the Chairperson of the Committee and say thank you to you for creating this Committee to look at this Bill. Let me also thank the Clerk of the National Assembly for facilitating the work of the Committee. I also want to thank the witnesses that were called, especially teams from my institution, to come and share what this Bill is going to do. 

Mr Speaker, I am just pleased with the overwhelming response and positive attitude to the Bill.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

Committed to a committee of the Whole House.

Committee on Tuesday, 1st March, 2016.

THIRD READING

The following Bill was read the third time and passed:

The Movable Property (Security Interest) Bill, 2015.

____________ 

MOTION

ADJOURNMENT

The Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning (Mrs Wina): Sir, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

___________

The House accordingly adjourned at 1943 hours until 0900 hours on Friday, 26th February, 2016.
___________