- Home
- About Parliament
- Members
- Committees
- Publications
Debates - Tuesday, 5th November, 2013
DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE THIRD SESSION OF THE ELEVENTH ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 5th November, 2013
The House met at 1430 hours
[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]
NATIONAL ANTHEM
PRAYER
________
MINISTERIAL STATEMENT
BOARD OF THE INDEPENDENT BROADCASTING AUTHORITY
The Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services (Mr Kapeya): Mr Speaker, I wish to thank you for giving me the opportunity to update this House on the operations of the Independent Broadcasting Authority (IBA).
Sir, the Independent Broadcasting Authority Act No. 17 of 2002 was amended by Act No. 26 of 2010 in order to take into account the developments in the media, particularly, the issues regarding the convergence of technologies with the advancements in information and communication technologies (ICTs).
Mr Speaker, the Independent Broadcasting Authority Act No. 26 of 2010 empowers the Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services to appoint a board of the IBA. The board is supposed to be made up of nine part-time members.
Mr Speaker, when the Patriotic Front (PF) Government came into power in 2011, there was a backlog of applications for radio and television licences, especially from communities. In order to deal with this challenge, the hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting requested for legal guidance on how the backlog of applications could be dealt with, considering that the IBA was not yet operational. The hon. Minister was guided by the Attorney-General that the President could authorise him to issue licences.
Sir, without delay, the hon. Minister was given authority by His Excellency the President to issue licences. The hon. Minister then proceeded to form a Licencing Committee comprising officers from the Ministry of Justice, Office of the President – Special Division, Zambia Information and Communication Technology Authority (ZICTA), Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) and the Ministry of Information and Broadcasting. The committee is chaired by the Permanent Secretary in the Ministry of Information and Broadcasting Services.
Sir, the committee worked very well to handle the backlog of applications. As I speak, twenty-one full broadcasting licences have been issued since 2012.
Mr Speaker, in order to ensure that there was a proper transition from the committee to the IBA in terms of the issuance of licences and also to oversee the operations of the authority, the Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services appointed the Permanent Secretary of the ministry to act as Board Chairperson in the interim while the full board was being constituted. In the interim, therefore, the Permanent Secretary and the Director-General are acting as the interim board of the IBA.
Mr Speaker, in the interim, therefore, the committee has continued to issue licences until a full board is appointed.
Sir, I wish to report that progress has been made in identifying possible members of the board of the IBA. A formal announcement will be made once the necessary process has been completed.
I thank you, Mr Speaker.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Speaker: Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the statement which has been delivered by the hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services.
Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Speaker, I take it that the approved licences are those that were announced by the then Permanent Secretary, Mr Mwamba. We understand that the President directed that those licences are supposed to be revoked. Can the hon. Minister, please, clarify which approved licences he is referring to.
Mr Kapeya: Mr Speaker, the twenty-one licences are those which were approved by the Minister before the coming in of the Permanent Secretary whom Hon. Mutanga referred to. In fact, the licences that are being talked about were not issued. Mr Mwamba simply made an announcement. The final person who is supposed to issue the licences is the Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services and I did not do that.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Muchima (Ikeleng’i): Mr Speaker, boards are important to institutions in the country because they guarantee good corporate governance. Through you, Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister assure the nation that he will follow the procedure and only appoint those who are qualified to sit on the IBA Board. Just like the Government has done for the other boards, is he going to appoint unqualified cadres to sit on the IBA Board?
Mr Kapeya: Mr Speaker, I must assure this House that the names that have been identified to sit on the IBA Board are those of people with a sound standing in society.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Mbulakulima (Chembe): Mr Speaker, according to the hon. Minister’s explanation, it seems procedures were followed to the extent that even a committee was created when certain licences were issued. Why does the hon. Minister think that the President was so disappointed with the issuance of a nationwide broadcasting licence to Radio Phoenix? Why was Radio Phoenix singled out?
Mr Kapeya: Mr Speaker, I am a bit nervous and cannot speak on behalf of the President.
I thank you, Sir.
Interruptions
Mr Speaker: Hon. Minister, the question is being put to you. Answer it as best as you can in your capacity as hon. Minister.
Interruptions
Mr Kapeya: Mr Speaker, I listened to the President’s guidance regarding the issuance of licences to radio stations such as Radio Phoenix which has already offloaded some of its shares to a foreign company. The advice was correct.
I thank you, Sir.
Lt. Gen. Rev. Shikapwasha (Keembe): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister said that he advised by the Attorney-General on how to handle the backlog of applications for licences which he inherited. Can the hon. Minister tell the nation which law he used to constitute the committee which he has been referring to.
Mr Kapeya: Mr Speaker, the proposed composition of the board has not yet been approved by Cabinet. The committee which I have been referring to is made up of officials from the Ministry of Information and Broadcasting Services, Ministry of Justice, Office of the President – Special Division, ZICTA and ACC.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Speaker: Hon. Minister, the question is: Are you able to cite the relevant provisions under which you constituted the committee?
Mr Kapeya: Mr Speaker, I clearly stated in my statement that the authority to constitute the committee was granted by the President because of the backlog of applications for licences which we inherited. The President used his powers …
Hon. Opposition Members: Question!
Interruptions
Mr Speaker: Order!
He is explaining. Continue, hon. Minister.
Mr Kapeya: Mr Speaker, the President used his powers …
Mr Livune: Question!
Laughter
Mr Kapeya: … to authorise the hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting to come up with a committee in order to clear the backlog of applications.
Thank you, Sir.
Mr Mucheleka (Lubansenshi): Mr Speaker, through you …
Lt. Gen. Rev. Shikapwasha: On a point of Order, Sir.
Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.
Lt. Gen. Rev. Shikapwasha: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister in order not to quote the law under which the committee was constituted? The President works under the Laws of Zambia. Is the hon. Minister in order not to quote the law under which the committee was constituted?
Mr Speaker: Hon. Minister, as you continue responding to the questions, please, indicate whether or not you are able to cite the specific provision.
Mr Mucheleka: Mr Speaker, is the Government scared that if people have alternative sources of information, then, it will be difficult to misinform them through the State-controlled media?
Hon. PF Members: Question!
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Kapeya: Mr Speaker, I cannot confirm that.
I thank you, Mr Speaker.
Mr Speaker: What about the earlier point I made in my ruling?
Mr Kapeya: Mr Speaker, Article 33 of the Constitution of Zambia allows the Republican President to empower an hon. Minister to appoint a committee.
I thank you, Sir.
Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!
Interruptions
Ms Namugala (Mafinga): Mr Speaker, the PF party, before it formed Government, effectively used private media such as Radio Phoenix to communicate with the public. To some extent, that is what contributed to its gaining of popularity. Why is the Government uncomfortable to promote the growth of Radio Phoenix by giving it a licence to broadcast nationwide?
Mr Kapeya: Mr Speaker, I made it very clear in my earlier responses that, Radio Phoenix was established as a locally-owned radio station. However, now that some shares have been acquired by a foreign company, it becomes difficult to allow the radio station to operate nationwide until when the law permits such a move.
Thank you, Sir.
Dr Musokotwane (Liuwa): Mr Speaker, the other day I saw an article about the 2011 election campaigns in which the President stated very clearly that the PF, when in Government, would give nationwide broadcasting licences to all the radio stations.
Lt. Gen. Rev. Shikapwasha: Including Radio Phoenix.
Dr Musokotwane: Sir, yes, including Radio Phoenix. Can the hon. Minister confirm that once again, just as in so many other cases, this PF Government has gone against the undertakings it made during the election campaigns.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Kapeya: Mr Speaker, I thought hon. Members of Parliament are aware that our society is governed by laws. Licences are only issued in line with the requirements of the current law. If the law is changed even the requirements will change.
I thank you, Mr Speaker.{mospagebreak}
Mr Ng’onga: Hear, hear!
Mr Konga (Chavuma): Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister inform the House …
Mr Muntanga: On a point of Order, Sir.
Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.
Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister in order to keep on changing statements. The hon. Minister was specifically asked a question regarding the law they used to form the committee which considered the applications for licences. He cited an article in the Constitution which allows the President to grant an hon. Minister permission to constitute such a committee. There is also another law which states that the IBA needs to have a board. That law should be followed. The Government opted to form a committee to scrutinise the applications instead of appointing a board. Is the hon. Minister in order to twist his statements and not specify which law was used when he knows that, somehow, they have failed to obey the law?
Mr Speaker: Hon. Minister, as you respond to the follow-up question by the hon. Member for Chavuma, please, clarify that position.
The hon. Member may continue.
Mr Konga: Mr Speaker, I would like the hon. Minister to tell the House and the nation at large which law he is citing in the allocation of nationwide broadcasting licences.
Mr Kapeya: Mr Speaker, in responding to Hon. Konga’s question and clarify Hon. Muntanga’s concern, I want to say that there are two sides to this issue.
Sir, locally, for us to permit the establishment of community and commercial radio stations, authority has to be granted by His Excellency the President. On the other hand, the law has to permit outsiders to come and start operating radio …
Mr Mucheleka: Which law?
Mr Kapeya: … stations in the country. That law is not yet in place.
Mr Mucheleka: Which law?
Mr Kapeya: Sir, the law which can allow outsiders to take part in the running of radio stations in the country is not yet in place.
Mr Speaker, I thank you.
Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, do not ask questions whilst you are seated. You are not helping matters.
Hon. Member for Mwandi, you may ask your follow-up question.
Dr Kaingu (Mwandi): I thank you, Mr Speaker.
Mr Konga: On a point of order, Sir.
Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.
Mr Konga: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister in order not to cite a law which prohibits non-Zambians from being issued with nationwide radio broadcasting licences? Is he in order not to state the law? I need your serious ruling, Sir.
Mr Livune: That is right!
Mr Speaker: Hon. Minister, as you respond to the follow-up question by the hon. Member for Mwandi clarify that position.
The hon. Member for Mwandi may continue.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Dr Kaingu: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister said that the nationwide broadcasting licence for Radio Phoenix was cancelled because an investor bought some shares in the station. Hon. Minister, what is your policy on foreign direct investment (FDI)?
Mr Kapeya: Mr Speaker, there was no licence issued to Radio Phoenix to broadcast nationwide.
Ms Kalima: What is your policy?
Laughter
Mr Kapeya: It was simply a recommendation which was not even approved by the Minister.
Interruptions
Mr Speaker: Order, on my left!
Mr Kapeya: Sir, the Independent Broadcasting Authority Act No. 23(1) of 2010, clarifies Hon. Konga’s concern.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Mtolo (Chipata Central): Mr Speaker, the people listening to …
Dr Kaingu: On a point of order, Sir.
Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.
Dr Kaingu: Mr Speaker, my question was very clear.
Is the hon. Minister in order not to answer my question on what this Government’s policy is on the FDI? Is he in order to start twisting words and to waffle …
Hon. Government Members: Aah!
Dr Kaingu: … instead of just answering such a good question?
Mr Speaker: Order!
Hon. Member for Mwandi, just ask for clarification without casting any aspersions. Please, withdraw that statement.
Dr Kaingu: I withdraw it, Sir. I am sorry.
Interruptions
Mr Speaker: Thank you.
Hon. Minister, as you respond to the follow-up question by the hon. Member for Chipata Central, please, clarify the FDI issue.
The hon. Member for Chipata Central may proceed.
Mr Mtolo: Mr Speaker, the people who listen to Radio Phoenix in Lusaka and on the Copperbelt include Zambians. The operations of Radio Phoenix are funded by both Zambians and non-Zambians. What is wrong with the people of Chipata and those in the other parts of the country listening to Radio Phoenix which is funded by foreigners, but is listened to in Lusaka and on the Copperbelt? What is different with us the people of Chipata?
Mr Kapeya: Mr Speaker, I did not get the question.
Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!
Mr Speaker: Yes, he is entitled to ask that question.
Hon. Member for Chipata Central, may you repeat your question.
Mr Mtolo: Mr Speaker, I thank you for this rare privilege.
Mr Mbulakulima: He is nervous!
Mr Mtolo: Mr Speaker, the people who listen to Radio Phoenix in Lusaka and on the Copperbelt include Zambians. The operations of Radio Phoenix are funded by both Zambians and non-Zambians. Why should other Zambians, like those in Chipata or those in other parts of the country, not enjoy listening to Radio Phoenix?
Mr Mwale: Chamveka chizungu manje?
Mr Kapeya: Mr Speaker, the current regulations only permit community radio stations to direct their broadcasts to certain specific areas within the country, not outside.
Sir, at the moment, there are no specific laws which deal with the FDI in the broadcasting industry.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Hamudulu (Siavonga): Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister inform this House and the nation at large when the law was changed. During the 2011 election campaigns, the PF promised to give licences to radio stations to broadcast nationwide. When did it change its stance after the campaigns?
Mr Speaker: Are you asking a question or answering it?
The hon. Minister may respond.
Mr Kapeya: Mr Speaker, I do not know which law the hon. Member is referring to. If a law has not yet been put in place, there is nothing that we can do.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Mwale: On a point of order, Sir.
Hon. Government Members: On whom?
Mr Mweetwa (Choma Central): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out …
Mr Mwale: On a point of order, Sir.
Mr Speaker indicated dissent.
Mr Mweetwa: Sir, the hon. Minister in his response stated that …
Mr Mwale: On a point of order, Sir.
Ms Kalima: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.
Mr Speaker: Hon. Member for Choma Central, you may continue.
Laughter
Mr Mweetwa: … there were no licences which were issued which had been revoked.
Mr Mwale: On a point of order, Sir.
Ms Kalima: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.
Mr Mweetwa: Sir, the President, at the occasion of firing the then Permanent Secretary, is on record …
Ms Kalima: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.
Mr Mwale: On a point of order, Sir.
Mr Mweetwa: … as having stated that those licences which were purportedly …
Mr Ng’onga: Ikalenifye!
Ms Kalima: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.
Mr Mweetwa: … issued under the leadership of Mr Emmanuel Mwamba would be revoked.
Hon. Minister, are you telling this House that His Excellency the President was misled into believing that the licences were actually issued?
Ms Kalima: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.
Laughter
Mr Kapeya: Mr Speaker, Mr Mwamba’s committee simply came up with recommendations. The actual licences were supposed to be issued by my office. The recommendations from Mr Mwamba’s committee did not come anywhere near my office. A mere recommendation is totally different from an actual licence.
I thank you, Sir.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Speaker: Order!
Any other points of clarification?
Hon. Member for Mumbwa, you may ask your follow-up question.
Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo (Mumbwa): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister …
Mr Mwale: On a point of order, Sir
Mr Speaker: Hon. Member for Mumbwa, please, continue.
Laughter
Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo: … if there were no licences issued which ones were cancelled?
Mr Kapeya: Mr Speaker, only pronouncements were made by the Permanent Secretary. There were no licences which were issued. Mr Mwamba’s committee just made recommendations. Only the Minister can issue licences.
I thank you, Sir.
_________
QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER
PROTECTIVE CLOTHING FOR THOSE WORKING ON THE MAPUNGU/ KALABO ROAD
164. Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central) asked the Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication, why the Government had not yet provided protective clothing to its employees working on the Mapungu/Kalabo Road in Kalabo Central Constituency.
The Deputy Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication (Mr M. H. Malama): Mr Speaker, it is true that the workers on the Mapungu/Kalabo Road have no protective clothing.
Sir, this was an oversight by the Rural Roads Unit (RRU) Western Provincial Engineer. However, we hope to provide protective clothing before the end of this month.
Mr Speaker, I thank you.
Mr Miyutu: Mr Speaker, can the Government confirm that the failure to provide protective clothing for the workers on the Mapungu/Kalabo Road is a sign of the Government being negligent to the needs of people of Kalabo.
The Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication (Mr Mukanga): Mr Speaker, as a Government, we would like to ensure that all the people who are working on various sites have protective attire. That is why we have admitted that it was wrong for the RRU in the area to keep people on site without protective clothing. The Government should ensure that all the workers, including those from private contractors wear proper protective clothing whenever they are working on site. We will never compromise on that.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Hamudulu ( Siavonga): Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister inform this House if the case in Kalabo is an isolated one or that is the situation in all the places where the RRU is carrying out construction works.
Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, it is not an isolated case. I have gone round and found that most of the people, including those from private contractors are working on different sites without protective clothing. We have urged all the RRUs and contractors to ensure that their safety profiles are raised by ensuring that everybody who is working on site has proper protective clothing.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Lufuma (Kabompo West): Mr Speaker, are there any punitive measures which are meted out on contractors that do not provide protective clothing for its workers?
Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, when we see workers on site without protective clothing, action is taken. If they belong to a contractor, they are even sent off the site sometimes. We have also found out that at times, workers are given safety attire which they sell. We have urged those in management to ensure that workers do not repeat the action of selling off their protective clothing. Sometimes, we even blacklist contractors who let their workers go on site without protective clothing.
I thank you, Mr Speaker.
Mr Antonio (Kaoma Central): Mr Speaker, why should the ministry take one complete month to provide protective clothes?
Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, the ministry cannot take one complete month to provide protective clothing. We have given ourselves up to this month end because we are aware of the bureaucracies which are associated with the Government’s procurement system. We want to provide the protective clothing as soon as possible.
Mr Speaker, I thank you.
Mr Mweetwa (Choma Central): Mr Speaker, what is the reason which is making it difficult to provide protective clothing for the people who are working on the roads? Is it the same reason which is making the Government fail to do small things such as tarring a 30 to 50 m stretch of a road which has become highly impassable between the clinic and R Block within Parliament Motel?
Laughter
Mr Speaker: This is a totally different question. They may both seem to be simple, but they are different questions. So, if you want to find out about the road within Parliament Motel, please, file in a question.
CREATION OF A FARMING BLOCK IN SESHEKE CONSTITUENCY
165. Mr Sianga (Sesheke) asked the Minister of Agriculture and Livestock:
(a) whether the Government had any plans to create a farming block along the Zambezi River in Sesheke Parliamentary Constituency in order to encourage farming in the area; and
(b) if there were no such plans, how the Government intended to reduce poverty in the Constituency.
The Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Livestock (Mr Mwewa): Mr Speaker, the Government does not have any immediate plans to create a farming block along the Zambezi River in Sesheke Parliamentary Constituency. However, there are plans to develop one farming block in the Western Province called Kalumwange Farming Block in Kaoma District. Kaoma was selected because it is more agro-ecologically suitable in terms of its soil and rainfall pattern. Once the Kalumwange Farming Block is developed, it is expected to benefit all the people in the Western Province.
Mr Speaker, the Government has plans to reduce poverty in Sesheke Parliamentary Constituency which falls under Sesheke District through the promotion of alternative agricultural livelihoods in the form of crop diversification, fish farming, livestock raring and timber processing.
I thank you Mr Speaker.
Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Speaker, may I find out from the Minister whether it is impossible for them to encourage fish farming using ponds along the Zambezi River if other types of farming are not possible. Can that activity not be encouraged in Sesheke District?
Mr Mwewa: Mr Speaker, I had earlier said that we are seriously thinking of developing fish farming in Sesheke. We will take that as first priority because the soils there are not very good for crops. In Sesheke, we can focus on livestock development as well as fish farming.
Mr Antonio: Mr Speaker, the development of the Kalumwange Farming Block has been dragging for years now. There was a time, I remember, when money was sent …
Mr Speaker: Order, on the right.
Mr Antonio: ... to an account for agriculture in Kaoma. The money was not spent for over three years without being used. When is the farming block going to be officially opened?
Mr Mwewa: Mr Speaker, when we took over power in 2011, we found plans in place to develop farming blocks in Zambia. As the Patriotic Front (PF) Government, we are seriously considering the development of farming blocks in each province before we go for the next elections. So, be assured that within this first term of office, we will be able to develop some farming blocks in Zambia.
I thank you, Mr Speaker.{mospagebreak}
Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Mr Speaker, what qualifies a place to be developed into a farm block?
Mr Mwewa: Mr Speaker, first and foremost, traditional leaders are supposed to provide land for the development of farming blocks. The Government considers factors such as the soil and rain pattern in the area before deciding to develop it into a farming block.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Miyutu: Mr Speaker, I heard the hon. Minister say that the soil in Sesheke is not good for crop production. I do not know which soil the hon. Minister was referring to. However, if he was referring to the earthly particles, …
Laughter
Mr Miyutu: … then my question is: Is the hon. Minister aware …
Mr Speaker: It cannot be otherwise, can it?
Laughter
Mr Miyutu: … that crop production in the Sesheke area does not need fertiliser? The people there just grow crops without using fertiliser. Can he confirm whether this is what is on the ground.
Mr Mwewa: Mr Speaker, what we did was compare the soil in Sesheke with the one in Kaoma. We found out that the soil in Kaoma is more fertile than the one in Sesheke.
I thank you, Mr Speaker.
Mr Lufuma: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister informed this House that the PF Government is seriously developing farming blocks throughout this country. How many farming blocks have been developed so far?
Mr Mwewa: Mr Speaker, I cannot tell how many farming blocks have been developed, so far, from my head. However, I would like to come back to the House and probably give an appropriate answer.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Speaker: That is an appropriate response.
Mr Mutelo (Lukulu West): Mr Speaker, I hope the hon. Deputy Minister is aware that the people are listening to us through Parliament Radio. Since the hon. Deputy Minister stated that there is only one farming block in the Western Province, I want him to explain what the activity in the Dongwe area in Lukulu is all about.
Mr Mwewa: Mr Speaker, probably, I should say that the farming blocks we are talking about here are the ones we are developing at provincial level. The area Hon. Miyutu is referring to is probably a district farming block.
I thank you, Mr Speaker.
SOLAR POWER FOR SCHOOLS IN NALIKWANDA CONSTITUENCY
166. Prof. Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda) asked the Minister of Mines, Energy and Water Development when the following primary schools in Nalikwanda Parliamentary Constituency would be provided with solar power:
(a) Litawa;
(b) Lukweta;
(c) Namaumba;
(d) Nanjeko;
(e) Sibongo; and
(f) Nakanyaa.
The Deputy Minister of Mines, Energy and Water Development (Mr Zulu): Mr Speaker, the Rural Electrification Authority (REA) plans to install solar home systems at the named primary schools in 2014.
I thank you, Sir.
___________
COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY
[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the
Chair]
(Consideration resumed)
VOTE 02 – (Office of the Vice-President – K21,328,900), VOTE 19 – (Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit – K67,315,970) and VOTE 03 – (National Assembly – Headquarters – 547,080,239).
The Vice-President (Dr Scott): Mr Chairperson, when the House adjourned on Friday, I was winding up debate on the allocation to the Office of the Vice-President and Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU). I would now like to thank the hon. Members who contributed to the debate.
Sir, I note that almost all the debate was about the DMMU and very little was said about anything else. It is clear that the politics in this country are centred on hunger. I think we should accept that any Government which comes into power in this country should work to minimise that problem.
Mr Speaker, perhaps, based on my experience, I should warn my young brother, the hon. Member of Parliament for Luiwa that when people are hungry, the dividing line between truth and fiction becomes extremely thin and tenuous.
Sir, I used to keep an advisor known as Mr Christopher Mufwambi on hand during the near- famine in 1992. He was an expert who kept running around the country to check whether the reports we were receiving were accurate. So, he would, for example, zoom off to Imusho to ask the people there to show him the graves of those who were reported to have died as a result of hunger.
Sir, we had two children who poisoned themselves to death when their parents went looking for mealie-meal in the Southern Province. My investigator, Mr Mufwamba, went all the way up to the area where the children were said to have been living so that he could find out what exactly happened. Most of the people there said that they had heard about the death of the children from the news of the Zambia National Broadcasting Services (ZNBC).
Sir, hon. Members should carefully verify the stories which they hear about hunger because people get dramatic about them. People use all sorts of fiction in order to get relief food. If we do not do things in an objective and sane manner, people will think that we are a crazy country, which, of course, we are not.
I thank you, Sir.
Vote 02/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Vote 02/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Vote 02/02 ordered to stand part of the estimates.
Vote 02/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Vote 19/01 ordered to stands part of the Estimates.
Vote 03/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
VOTE 05 – (Electoral Commission of Zambia – K107,484,858).
The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, with your indulgence, I would like us to defer the consideration of this allocation because the policy statement has somehow failed to make it to my office. I will have it by the time we break off for tea, and then we can look at the allocation.
The Chairperson: Okay, in light of that request, we will move on to Vote 06.
VOTE 06 – (Public Service Commission – Office of the President – K9,939,482).
The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank you for according me this opportunity to present the 2014 Estimates of Expenditure for the Public Service Commission. The Public Service Commission was created in accordance with the provisions of Part XI, Article 123 (2) of the Constitution of Zambia. It is also a statutory body falling under the Office of the President as set out in the Government Gazette Notice No. 457 of 2004. According to the same Gazette Notice, the commission is responsible for the administration of the Service Commissions Act Chapter 259 of the Laws of Zambia. I hope everyone is very clear on those legal references.
Mr Chairperson, the work of the commission is guided by the following mission statement:
“To ensure integrity, equity and professionalism in the conduct of appointments, promotions and disciplinary control and separations in the Public Service in order to enhance delivery of quality services.”
Mr Chairperson, the functions of the Public Service Commission as contained in Chapter 259 of the Laws of Zambia, include the following:
(i) to make appointments to any office in the Civil Service;
(ii) to make appointments on probation, confirmation in appointments, promotions, recruitments and transfers in the Civil Service;
(iii) to exercise disciplinary control over persons holding or acting in the established Civil Service posts;
(iv) to prescribe policies and procedures of employment in the Civil Service;
(v) to provide advice to the President on policies and procedures for employment and for conduct and discipline in the Civil Service;
(vi) to act as an appellate body of the Public Service;
(vii) to implement and review the rules, policies and procedures for employment and for conduct and discipline in the Public Service;
(viii) to authorise any withholding, reduction, deferment and suspension of salary increment or pension benefits in the administration of the disciplinary code; and
(ix) to prescribe the disciplinary code and procedures for handling offences in the Public Service.
Mr Chairperson, in the year 2013, the Commission had an approved Budget of K7,902,458.16 to cater for thirteen programmes. This allocation did not enable the commission to carry out its operations in an efficient and effective manner. A number of planned activities for the year 2013 could not be undertaken. For example, the commission could not undertake provincial performance support and monitoring as well as evaluation programmes in all line ministries and provinces due to a limited budgetary ceiling. As a result, sensitisation and capacity building programmes for human resource functionaries could not be undertaken as planned.
Sir, for the year 2014, the commission has focused on key programmes that will enhance Public Service delivery. Some of the programmes include the review of the human resource policies, guidelines and procedures for the Public Service, which will result in the effective and efficient processing of human resource cases, and will ultimately lead to improved service delivery to the public. The commission will also focus on monitoring and evaluation as well as provincial performance support to various Government ministries and institutions, which will ultimately lead to improved performance and adherence to human resource management policies, procedures and practices in the Public Service. I can see, in our Public Service, that we have problems with full stops. They tend not to occur as often as they are supposed to in the English language.
Mr Muntanga: We cannot hear what His Honour the Vice-President is saying. Is it a private conversation?
The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, I was simply pointing out that some of the sentences I am reading are very long. I was actually apologising for that. A full stop should occur every two and not every five lines.
Sir, I now have the honour to present a budget request from the commission for the year 2014, amounting to K9,939,483.96 only. This is to say almost K10,000,000. Last year, it was K7,902,458.16. So, there is about a 25 per cent increase. These funds will support the portfolio functions of the commission in our continued efforts to have an efficient and effective Public Service which is essential for sustainable national development.
Mr Chairperson, I, therefore, urge this august House to support this budget, as presented.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Chairperson, …
Lt-Gen. Rev. Shikapwasha: On a point of order, Sir.
The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.
Lt-Gen. Rev. Shikapwasha: Mr Chairperson, is it procedural for His Honour the Vice-President to change the order of business without the House having passed an amendment?
The Chairperson: Well, what happened was alright because an explanation was given. The papers for the policy statement for the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) are on the way, but have not yet reached him. Therefore, under these circumstances, we cannot keep on waiting for those papers to come. So, it is procedurally correct for us to move on.
Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, I stand to support the budget for the Public Service Commission in the Office of the Vice-President. The Vice-President’s point that he has to read very long sentences in the policy statement is indicative of how this commission is working. Officials at the commission have not prepared short sentences for His Honour the Vice-President to understand what he is talking about. They have given him long and continuous sentences in order to confuse him. Why should this commission, which is mandated to employ people to work in the Civil Service, be abdicating its responsibilities, to the extent that nearly every Government department employs people on the basis of who knows who? People are employed even when they have got a …
Ms Kapata: What is the point of order?
Mr Chairperson: Order!
He is debating and not raising a point of order.
Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, I understand that others were sleeping when I started my debate and have just woken up.
Laughter
Mr Muntanga: Sir, when people are seeking employment in the Civil Service, they are asked to see a certain party cadre somewhere who should write a recommendation letter before they are employed. We know that the manifesto of the Patriotic Front (PF) is such that everyone in Government, from the Head of State to the cleaner, must be a member of the party. Members of the PF do not believe in democracy at all.
Interruptions
Mr Muntanga: Sir, while some are questioning the statement I have just made, others agree with me. Soon, we are going to have a situation whereby people will not believe in multi-partism in this country anymore. Why should people be asked to go and obtain introductory letters from some District Commissioners (DCs) and other Ruling Party officials to be offered a job?
Mr Livune: Shame!
Mr Muntanga: Sir, our people are asking us, hon. Members of Parliament, why when applying for a job, they have to get a recommendation letter from some party riff-raff. Why should this be so?
The Chairperson: Order!
The use of the word ‘riff-raff’ in here is not allowed.
Mr Muntanga: Sir, I am sorry and withdraw it. I leave it to the people out there to use the word ‘riff-raff’ to …
The Chairperson: No, just withdraw it. Do not qualify its use.
Mr Muntanga: I withdraw it, Sir.
Mr Chairperson, the people who are being asked to approve this budget are not just hon. Members of Parliament for the PF. I am not a PF hon. Member and do not want to be one. I will be an hon. Member of the United Party for National Development (UPND) through and through. Since, I live and breathe the UPND, I will only approve a budget which will benefit the whole country. Therefore, why should this commission receive recommendations to only employ party cadres in the Civil Service?
Mr Chairperson, His Honour the Vice-President should tell those who work at the Public Service Commission that Hon. Muntanga, who is from the UPND, is part of the people who approve the budget for this commission. Even our good friends in the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) are part of the approval process. The people out there should not ask for small notes from the party cadres who are seated on your right in order to be employed in the Public Service. We want a Government that embraces people, regardless of which part of the country they come from.
Sir, when we start talking about cessations like the people from the Western Province, the Executive starts crying. When people talk about Barotseland, our colleagues start getting worried. However, if you do not consider the feelings of others when doing things, what do you think they will do?
The Chairperson: Order!
Can you address the Chair.
Mr Muntanga: Sir, I am addressing them directly because there are some hon. Members who want to speak while seated.
The Chairperson: Ignore them.
Mr Muntanga: Sir, I want them to realise that we want everyone in this country to be treated fairly. This country is not just for a certain section or group of citizens. Some people think that just because they have been given a chance to rule, everyone must change and become a member of the PF.
Mr Chairperson, this commission should offer Public Service jobs to people from different parts of the country. When offering employment, for instance, in Kasama, it should not look for specific names such as Muntanga just because it wants to employ people from a certain group. It should not just look for names like Liato or Musokotwane in the Eastern Province. As the situation is at the moment, if a name like Musokotwane is not found in the Eastern Province, then everyone else does not qualify to be employed. Let us not employ names.
Interruptions
Mr Muntanga: Yes, do not employ names. If you are going to keep employing names …
The Chairperson: Order!
Mr Muntanga: These people, Mr Chairperson …
The Chairperson: That is right. Please, address the Chair.
Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, the commission should not employ people on tribal lines. In this country, people have inter-married. I have a granddaughter by the name of Bwalya. This is true. I do not want my granddaughter to be segregated against on account of her name.
Hon. PF Members: Question!
Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, I want these people on your right to be able to open their hearts and accept everybody.
Mr Livune: Bwalya Muntanga.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Muntanga: Sir, the commission which is tasked to employ public workers, should do so on merit. It should treat all Zambians equally. There is no need to be selective on the basis of names.
Mr Chairperson, when asked to name the Government departments that are practising segregation, I will be very specific one day. Certain departments advertise for jobs even when they have already made a choice. It is not correct. It is not only the children of Government officials that are educated. At this stage, I wish to address even the people at this commission. I wish they were present here. However, I will address them through His Honour the Vice-President. We are now beginning to follow every document. Do not make Zambia a one party State for people from one section of the country or village.
Interruptions
Mr Muntanga: Sir, they can figure it all out. I am not here to mention names. I just want those who are doing the wrong thing to stop.
Mr Chairperson, we have had situations in this country whereby some people have found themselves in trouble. If you employ your brother, cousin or any other relative and this person is caught stealing, you find yourself in trouble because of bringing relatives into the system. Some people have even complained of their families being targeted when they are the only ones who are eating well.
Laughter
Mr Muntanga: Sir, they should let other people be part of the ‘eating’ so that people cannot pick on their families. In life, we are taught not to put all our eggs in one basket, so that when we fall, not all our eggs will break. So, the officers at this commission should know that and be fair. They should not be tribal. They should not follow what those small notes they receive tell them that they can only employ certain people with special names.
Mr Chairperson, I thank you.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, I would very happily respond to the one debater who was involved, except that I really do not have what appears to be the data base he was using, that says that we have people bringing notes from party cadres to get jobs in the Civil Service. I doubt very much that this is happening. I would welcome anything resembling support for this hypothesis or allegation. Apart from that, it seems that the House is happy with my long- sentenced policy statement.
I thank you, Sir.
Vote 06/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Vote 05 – (Electoral Commission of Zambia – Headquarters - K107,484,858).
The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to deliver my policy statement on the allocation to the ECZ.
Mr Chairperson, the Electoral Act No. 12 of 2006 empowers the ECZ to enforce the Electoral Act, make regulations providing for the registration of voters, conduct presidential and parliamentary elections, prosecute election offences and stipulate penalties for some offences. The commission is also mandated under the Referendum Act to conduct referendums under the terms stipulated under the same Act. The mission statement for the ECZ is “to be an autonomous electoral management body promoting democratic governance through the delivery of a credible electoral process.”
Mr Chairperson, the commission’s mission statement, justifies the fundamental purpose for its existence and the need to revise its policies and programmes in order to enrich and further strengthen the electoral process, thereby contributing to the democratic governance of the country. It also gives the staff of the commission a clear sense of what their organisation is all about thereby increasing their commitment to achieving the commission’s objectives. Furthermore, it proves a clear sense of direction and responsibility for the commission in the eyes of the many stakeholders both local and international.
Mr Chairperson, the year 2013 saw the commission conduct a number of by-elections. The commission was also party to the many election petitions which were brought before the courts of law. In this vein, the commission has conducted ten parliamentary by-elections and over eighty local government by-elections. Furthermore, one parliamentary by-election and seven local government by-elections are to be held on the 22nd of November, 2013. A further three parliamentary seats declared vacant during the course of this year still await legal resolution.
Mr Chairperson, the budgeted estimates before the House will enable the ECZ to undertake many programmes in 2014. The year 2014 is a watershed year for the commission because it starts preparations for the tripartite elections in 2016. The background work of delimitating polling districts and ward boundaries will certainly have to be undertaken in order to position the voters in their correct election conduits or posture, and this is the same year that the commission may also be called upon to conduct a referendum.
Mr Chairperson, these programmes are in conformity with the commission’s mission and will be undertaken under the powers provided for under the existing Laws of Zambia.
Mr Chairperson, I now seek the support of the House in approving the commission’s budget.
I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}
Dr Kaingu (Mwandi): Mr Chairperson, I want to start by saying that democratic elections are the fundamental dimensions of peace, social and economic emancipation of the people. I have seen that in this country, the Ruling Party is not paying attention to the needs of its citizens, as you can see from the allocation that has been given to the ECZ. Democracy cannot thrive in poverty. For a long time, conventional wisdom has been held that poor people do not support democracy, and that it can only be properly sustained after a certain number of people attain a certain level of wealth or education.
Mr Chairperson, poor people are easy prey for manipulation and are subjected to meaningless promises, gifts and presents. They end up voting fraudulent parties into power which are not bound by their own promises.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Dr Kaingu: Sir, for such parties, their pronouncements mean nothing.
Hon. Opposition Member: Buhata, buhata.
Dr Kaingu: Mr Chairperson, however, a political party in Government which fails to provide people with basic standards of living may not survive long in power. Such political parties …
Hon. Government Members: Like the MMD.
Dr Kaingu: Sir, we stayed for twenty years in power. We shall come back in power.
Hon. Government Members: Awe!
Dr Kaingu: Sir, we are coming back, they are on their way out.
Interruptions
The Chairperson: Order!
I do not want political battles to be fought in the Chamber.
Interruptions
Dr Kaingu: The Chairperson does not want political battles here.
Laughter
Dr Kaingu: Mr Chairperson, such political parties throw tantrums and intend to choke and suffocate the civil society and opposition political parties like yourselves.
Laughter
Dr Kaingu: Mr Chairperson, the ECZ is in a situation which is not enviable. Why? Firstly, very little money has been allocated to it and secondly, the political party in Government sees democracy as a threat to its stay in power. All tactics and manoeuvre have been employed by the Government to frustrate the efforts of the ECZ to do a good job. The meagre resources allocated to it are a good example that the Government or the political party in power is hostile to the ECZ because it wants to perpetuate its stay in power.
Interruptions
Dr Kaingu: Mr Chairperson, ...
Ms Kapata: On a point of order, Sir.
The Chairperson: I am normally hesitant to grant points of order when discussing the Budget. So, let me make it ...
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! Long live the Chairperson.
Dr Kaingu: Mr Chairperson, ...
Mr Chairperson: Order!
I did not finish giving my ruling. You have to wait.
Dr Kaingu: Oh, sorry, Sir.
The Chairperson: I want to discourage hon. Members from getting used to debating through points of order. I know that sometimes what is said may not be in good standing on either side, but there is an opportunity which you can use. If you want to counter what Hon. Dr Kaingu is saying, the appropriate time for you to indicate that you want to debate is when he has finished debating. Then you can rebut what he is saying, and not debate through points of order.
Please, continue, Hon. Dr Kaingu.
Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!
Dr Kaingu: Long live the Chair!
Laughter
Dr Kaingu: Mr Chairperson, after fighting hard for democracy and multi-partism, we have a political party in Government, today, which believes that this country can only enjoy good governance when the activities of the Opposition are restricted.
Interruptions
Dr Kaingu: Otherwise, how can you explain the ubiquitous violations and lack of rule of law?
Mr Nkombo: Masholi!
Dr Kaingu: Mr Chairperson, the PF Government has spent the last two years trying to swallow the Opposition to the detriment of micro-economic factors.
Hon. Opposition Members: Shame!
Dr Kaingu: Sir, today, abject poverty has crept into our country and people can no longer afford three meals a day. There is untold suffering in compounds and rural areas.
Sir, suffice to say, elections are the only means in which the general population can participate in running the affairs of their own country and, of course, through their own elected representatives. So, do not chock us because the people of Zambia can only be part of the governance process through us.
Prof. Luo interjected.
Hon. Government Members: Address the Chair!
Dr Kaingu: Mr Chairperson, ...
Mr Livune: You are on your way out!
Dr Kaingu: You are on your way out!
Laughter
The Chairperson: Order!
The Chair cannot be on his way out.
Laughter
The Chairperson: So, please, address the Chair and not the people on my right. Once you speak to them directly, you are soliciting for a response from them. Therefore, for you to be protected, address them through the Chair.
Dr Kaingu: Sir, I thank you for your guidance.
Mr Chairperson, the Government needs the input of the people when designing economic and social programmes. Without us, the representatives of the people, the people out there cannot say anything about this Budget. They can only talk about the Budget through us. So, when we say to you that this Budget ...
The Chairperson: Order!
You say, “When we say to them.”Address them through the Chair.
Dr Kaingu: Mr Chairperson, it is the people who told us to tell them that the Budget which they have presented to us is unattainable. These are the ones who are talking to them through us.
Sir, to strengthen democracy and governance, the party in power must allocate enough resources to the ECZ. It needs enough resources so that people can freely choose their preferred representatives.
Ms Kapata: On a point of order, Sir.
The Chairperson: Well, if you insist on points of order, go ahead.
Ms Kapata: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Member, who is a doctor, in order to belabour one point since he started his debate, and almost eight minutes has gone? Is he in order to continue repeating himself when he is a doctor whom we expect to give us a quality debate in this House? I seek your serious ruling.
Interruptions
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
The Chairperson: Well, as the hon. Member on the Floor debate, he can take that point of order into account.
Dr Kaingu: Yes, Sir.
Mr Chairperson, I worked very hard to be a doctor. It is not a small achievement.
Laughter
Dr Kaingu: Sir, this point is very important and I will emphasise it. I will keep on repeating myself for fifteen minutes ...
The Chairperson: Order! Order!
We have always guided that repetition of your own ideas or even the ideas of others is not acceptable. Let sleeping dogs lie. When you want to emphasise a point and you say, “I want to repeat it,”it means you are exposing yourself. So, do not engage yourself in a repetitious debate.
Please, continue.
Dr Kaingu: Sir, Hon. Kapata has problems in her constituency.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Laughter
Dr Kaingu: Mr Chairperson, the ECZ must be given enough resources for delimitation purposes and voter registration. These are important components of their work. We cannot continue to disfranchise our people by not having them registered as voters. Particularly, we in rural areas, need to have a continuous voter registration exercise in order to build up the numbers that we require for 2016.
Interruptions
Dr Kaingu: I cannot continue on that line, Sir.
Finally, Mr Chairperson, ...
Laughter
Hon. Government Members: Ooh!
Laughter
Dr Kaingu: ... malpractices are not corrupt cases. People tend to think that malpractices are also corruption cases.
Mr Chairperson, as you are aware, the election results of a certain constituency were nullified on allegations of malpractices. The winner is said to have donated K1,000 to a church. Before the dust could settle, a certain hon. Minister was seen ...
Mr Muntanga: And the President!
Dr Kaingu: ... in Feira donating K25,000. The one who simply ate a tadpole, who donated K1,000 was punished while the one who ate the whole 10 kg frog, went scot free. As we sit today, the party in power have an hon. Member of Parliament from Feira despite the fact that ...
The Chairperson: Order!
Let us not debate ourselves in that manner. Avoid mentioning names. You can make your statement without naming individuals.
Please, continue.
Hon. Government Member: It is his Honour the Vice-President.
Dr Kaingu: Sir, let me now talk about the work of the conflict management committees during elections. We do not seem to take such committees very seriously. People go straight to the High Court whenever they have an election issue instead of taking it to the Conflict Management Committee in their area. It is important that the institutions which we put in place are used.
Sir, the conflict management committees can help to resolve problems during and after elections.
I thank you. Sir.
Mr Bwalya (Lupososhi): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me an opportunity to contribute to the Motion on the Floor.
Sir, from the onset, I would like to say that I support this budget line. All the hon. Members of Parliament need to support it.
Mr Chairperson, the ECZ plays a pivotal role in ensuring that the democracy in this country develops.
Sir, His Honour the Vice-President has the huge task of ensuring that we embark on electoral reforms so that we can be able to capacitate the ECZ in as far as the enforcement of the law is concerned.
Sir, the history of this country …
Interruptions
The Chairperson: Order, on my right!
I keep on saying that I find it ironic that when somebody is debating, the people near the person are busy consulting loudly. This makes the person on the Floor feel unprotected. Can we, please, give him the opportunity to be heard.
Mr Bwalya: Mr Chairperson, the practices that have been going on during the campaigns are quite worrying …
Interruptions
The Chairperson: Order!
I am just from discouraging interruptions. I think some hon. Ministers are tired.
Laughter
The Chairperson: We are discussing the Budget which is a very important issue. Please, heed the advice which I gave and consult quietly. If you want to consult loudly, you are free to go to the foyer.
Mr Bwalya: Mr Chairperson, what has been happening during the campaigns is worrying. Some campaign materials make certain people make wrong decisions and have contributed, to a large extent, to the nullification of various parliamentary seats.
Sir, if possible, we need to carry out legal reforms that will see a limitation in the type of campaign materials which can be used during campaigns. This will stop the use of foodstuffs branded with political party names during campaigns. People in rural areas are actually swayed to vote for those whom they did not intend to vote for when they are given branded foodstuffs.
Mr Chairperson, we saw the use of sweets and other ornaments during the 2011 election campaigns. We need to put in place legal provisions which will stop the use of such campaign materials.
Sir, most of the elections that the courts have nullified are either from the rural areas or the peri-urban areas. This shows that it is from these areas that the poverty levels are very high. The giving out of sweets can cloud the objectivity of people in rural areas. It is only right that we make sure that people vote objectively for the candidates that they want. We should enhance and encourage the era of intellectual discourse so that when we talk to the people, in our effort to seek votes, we say things which are believable.
Mr Chairperson, I have no doubt that the composition of the ECZ is very credible. It has good eminent people who have served this country in various capacities and have contributed positively to the conducting of elections in this country.
Sir, allow me to talk about the delimitation that His Honor the Vice-President alluded to. Certain constituencies are very huge. This renders certain hon. Members of Parliament ineffective.
Mr Speaker, it is only right that this particular aspect is …
The Chairperson: It is Mr Chairperson.
Mr Bwalya: Mr Chairperson, the delimitation exercise should be given the seriousness it deserves. We need to ensure that we have reasonably sized constituencies so that all the hon. Members can be effective.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Bwalya: Sir, the registration of voters …
Interruptions
Mr Bwalya: … contributes to the development of democracy. Without voter registration, we would be relying on old figures even when a number of the Zambian youths have reached the age when they are legally allowed to vote. This is also something that requires serious attention. Making it work together with the national registration process can cut out a lot of costs.
Mr Chairperson, I would like to believe that the ECZ needs to be supported in terms of manpower and decentralisation. I am aware that we are using the services of the Ministry of Local Government and Housing when conducting elections.
Mr Chairperson, the operations of the commission should be decentralised so that certain issues that are specific can be handled as quickly as possible. The services which are offered by the Ministry of Local Government and Housing suffer during the election period because of its workers doing work which is supposed to be done by people from the ECZ.
Mr Speaker, I thank you.{mospagebreak}
Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, this is a …
The Chairperson: Order! If it were in a classroom, most of you would be failing and yet you are very clever people.
Laughter
The Chairperson: We are in Committee of Supply where you have to address the Chair as, “Mr Chairperson.”
Laughter
The Chairperson: You may continue.
Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, I want to thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate the allocation to the ECZ which is our referee. When we go for elections as political players, the referee is the ECZ. I want to state that this particular commission needs a lot of support. Although the budget has increased from K56,961,155 to K107,484,858, it is not enough. The increment is as a result of the money which has been budgeted for the Constitution and referendum-related processes. There is an allocation of K44,226,241 for Constitution and referendum-related processes. It gives us hope that there is movement in the right direction with regard to the Constitution-making process.
Sir, His Honour the Vice-President talked about the delimitation of constituency boundaries, but there is no money under that programme in this book. There was a budget of K4 million in 2013, but for 2014, there is nothing. How are we going to delimitate the constituencies when we have no budget line? By the time we come to individual items, His Honour the Vice-President should have prepared an answer to that question.
Mr Chairperson, the commission should be allowed to perform its duties freely. We have had cases where people believe that since they are in Government, they can dictate how the ECZ should work. For example, there was a case that happened in Kapiri Mposhi whereby a senior Government officer went with party cadres to direct the ECZ commissioners on how they were supposed to handle a specific issue. Why should it be so? There was also a case where the ECZ was being sued and a Secretary-General of a party wanted to be part of the case.
Mr Chairperson, if the referee is being questioned, what happens? If you are a football player and you also want to be a referee, what happens? How do you do things like that? How can a Secretary-General of a party who is holding a big position in Government do that? Do you want to teach people how to kick the ball? You cannot be a referee and football player at the same time. I am not sure if they have good lawyers in their party. Even me who is not a lawyer knows that a person cannot be involved in a case where he or she has no interest. How can you be involved in a case where a husband wants to divorce the wife?
Laughter
Mr Muntanga: Sir, if you have not caused that divorce, why should you be involved in the case?
Mr Chairperson, …
The Chairperson: Order!
Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.
[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the
Chair]
Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, before we went on break, I was simply saying that our friends on the other side (right) should stop wanting to involve themselves in cases that do not concern them. If they are lawyers, they must go back to school to learn that if people are divorcing, they should not be involved in such cases because they do not concern them. That is not correct. It is worse than corruption. We have had problems with the commission because its powers have been taken away. In Livingstone, there was a time when we were supposed to have a meeting which was cancelled by a very senior member of one party. I also remember a situation whereby a policeman was in charge of elections. Why should that be so? Let us allow the commission to do its work freely. The stance the commission took in Kapiri Mposhi shows that it has power, but our friends on the right want to disturb it. Look at them, Mr Chairperson …
Laughter
Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, if you look at me, they will think I am not talking to them.
The Chairperson: Order! Just debate.
Mr Muntanga: Sir, the issues I am raising need to be looked at seriously. The people on the right should stop this habit of interfering with the work of the commission. Anytime the commission says a correct thing, they jump and say the opposite. In the UPND, we are easily able to judge the performance of the previous and the present governments. The present Government is the worst.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Muntanga: Sir, the behaviour of those who are in the PF Government is terrible. Even when they are going for nominations, they use a Government plane. The situation becomes bad when one of the three wings of Government becomes weak. That is why terrible decisions are being made by those who are in Government. One of our members who was not even a candidate was distributing blankets somewhere in 2010. That was brought up as a reason for a petition. The High Court dismissed the petition, but the Supreme Court said that the blankets were used to campaign. What sort of decision is that? Things are getting out of hand. Perhaps, the High Court should be a more superior court. There was a tribunal which was being asked for by Mr Harrington. The High Court ruled that the tribunal be set up. Unfortunately, the Supreme Court ruled against that ruling. It is like a junior person being always right. What sort of arrangement is this? Let us give the ECZ enough power so that it can deal with malpractices properly. Why should an hon. Minister of Home Affairs decide how by-election-related issues should be handled?
Mr Chairperson, in this Budget, I have seen that only K4 million has been allocated for by-elections. I thought these people would have realised that we need more money since their appetite for by-elections is very high.
Laughter
Mr Muntanga: Sir, it is huge and cannot be controlled.
Mr Sianga: They can even kill.
Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, already an excess of K100 million has been used for by-elections. There are about sixteen petition cases that are pending. When a case is decided by the High Court, they take it to the Supreme Court and when it makes a ruling on the case, they are still not satisfied. What are they looking for? They should stop this nonsense.
The Chairperson: Order!
The use of the word ‘nonsense’ is unparliamentary.
Mr Muntanga: Sir, they should stop the rot.
Mr Kampyongo: On a point of Order, Sir.
The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.
Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, I thank you very much allowing me to raise my point of order. For the sake of progress, we do not want to be raising points of order.
Mr Chairperson, we have three independent arms of Government, namely the Judiciary, Executive and Legislature. Is the hon. Member on the Floor in order to abuse the privileges which we are given to conduct our business here and …
Hon. Opposition Members: Question!
Mr Kampyongo: … to take advantage of your discretion by attacking in a disrespectful way …
Mr Livune: Question!
Mr Kampyongo: … another arm of the Government, in this case the Judiciary, over the decisions which the courts have been making?
I seek your serious ruling, Sir.
The Chairperson: Can the hon. Member for Kalomo Central, Hon. Muntanga, take into account that point of order. Up to a certain point, it will be seen as if you are putting blame on the other arm of Government.
Mr Nkombo: Yes, Sir.
The Chairperson: No, do not say yes, Sir.
Laughter
The Chairperson: We can go up to a certain point. Beyond certain parameters, it becomes a bit difficult for us to know what to advise. So, please, with that point of order in mind, can you proceed, Hon. Muntanga.
Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, I indicated that there are three wings of Government and I also said that if one wing of Government stops doing well, the entire system is affected.
Mr Livune: Hear, hear!
Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, that is why I am saying that the referee which is the ECZ must be empowered so that it can regulate the elections in a proper manner.
Mr Nkombo: Nothing else.
Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, people fight during by-elections. We are beaten and arbitrarily detained using one wing of Government for no reason at all.
Mr Nkombo: Maybe, you want us to keep quite.
Mr Muntanga: Sir, that happens during by-elections.
Mr Livune: Kampyongo knows that.
Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, the people who are raising points of order are the ones who are using their powers to arrest us without any reasons at all. Why should it be so?
Mr Chairperson, the money which has been allocated for by-elections is too little. I have said that the appetite for by-elections which the people on the right have is huge.
Mr Nkombo: Look at them, Sir.
Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, next year, we might have several by-elections. That is a wastage of resources. The other time there was a comment by someone that if we did not want to compete with them, we should allow them to take the seats.
Mr Sikazwe: Yes.
Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, they do not believe in democracy and multi-partisim. No wonder they are being tutored by a former dictator of a one party State.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, even when we talk, they say we are not supposed to. They are not free to do whatever they want. As long as they remain in Government, we shall tell them when they do wrong things. They should not try to behave as though they know more than we do. They should not use the courts to fight every battle.
Mr Livune: Full stop.
Mr Muntanga: Sir, there is a case between the ECZ and one of our members. Someone who is not involved in the case wants to be part of it. What sort of players are they? They do not believe in genuine elections. If they are not scared of us in the Opposition, they should let the ECZ operate freely. If their hearing is good …
Mr Nkombo: They are hearing.
Mr Muntanga: … I want to tell them to allow the by-elections which they have halted to be held. We should sort things out in the field. They should stop hiding and using the other wings of Government wrongly. On every little thing, you do not want to be questioned. You say that it is because you are an hon. Minister of whatever, when you have never won a case locally.
Mr Chairperson, I want the ECZ to be given enough power. When those from the party in Government lose elections, they should not be complaining. That is being selfish.
Mr Chairperson, I support the allocation to the ECZ Budget even though I wish it was given more money. I know that in the Supplementary Budget, the hon. Minister of Finance will have no choice but to give it more money. We do not want constituencies to remain without hon. Members of Parliament for more than ninety days.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Mtolo (Chipata Central): Mr Chairperson, I start my debate by emphasising what His Honour the Vice-President said in his statement. He clearly indicated that the ECZ is supposed to enforce the Electoral Act and should deliver democratic governance. Cardinal to this is the independence of the ECZ. The ECZ is an agent of Government. What we are seeing now is that the principal which is the Government is challenging almost all the acts by its own agent. We have seen the Government, through the Attorney-General, taking the ECZ to court. The ECZ is busy defending itself against its principal.
Hon. Opposition Member: Shame.
Mr Mtolo: Mr Chairperson, I think there is a need to stop this. We have seen members of staff at the ECZ, which is an agent of the Government, being threatened by members of the Executive that they will be gotten rid off because they are not carrying out their duties properly.
Mr Chairperson, a few months ago the ECZ was being commended for a job well done during the general elections. However, during some of the by-elections, we saw the Government change its position. I think we need to maintain a standard on how to deal with the ECZ.
Mr Chairperson, the current Government came up with a very mischievous agenda of by-elections.
Hon. Opposition Members: Mischievous.
Mr Mtolo: Sir, there are by-elections everywhere and this has put a very big test on the ECZ. It has shown us that there is a need to review the operations of the ECZ. I hope that in this Budget there is money for the revision of the mandate of the ECZ and, indeed, the Electoral Act.
Mr Chairperson, looking at the unprecedented number of by-elections that Zambia has faced so far, it is important that the ECZ reviews its role. It should be able to disqualify candidates before they are even elected so that we do not waste money through these elections.
Mr Mwale: Wamvela, Chitotela?
Mr Mtolo: Mr Chairperson, I would like to touch a little on the need to strengthen the ECZ vis-à-vis the work of the conflict management committees. These committees are being challenged openly in court. In other words, they have no authority. Therefore, what we do out there is completely irrelevant to the Constitution of Zambia. Some courts have been told the conflict management resolution committees are illegal and useless entities.
Mr Chairperson, let us give power to the ECZ to check the Government activities during general or by-elections because we see the Executive abuse its authority whenever there is an election.
Mr Mwale: Ah!
Mr Mtolo: Sir, for example, youth funds are released in areas where by-elections are imminent.
Mr Masumba: Question!
Mr Mtolo: Sir, I think that it is important for the ECZ to check this. Youth funds should be given in areas where there are no elections. As it is, cheques are being dished out in certain parts of the country.
Hon. Opposition Members: Mansa!
Mr Mwale: Kambwili ali ku Mansa!
Mr Mtolo: Mr Chairperson, the same thing is happening with the Ministry of Gender and Child Development. It is supporting our womenfolk in areas where elections are coming up. The ECZ should do its job now to avoid election petitions.
Mr Mwale: Iye!
Mr Mtolo: Sir, there is a need to review the role of the ECZ, vis-à-vis its authority on its principal.
Mr Chairperson, I want to give another example. The Pave Zambia 2,000 km Road Project is in progress in Petauke. Why? We want this initiative in Chipata where there are no impending elections.
Interruptions
Mr Mtolo: Sir, why should the Pave Zambia 2,000 km Road Project be on-going in Mansa? The commission must stop these things because the candidate of the Ruling Party will definitely have an advantage.
Mr Mwale: They are doing it deliberately. Baoneni!
Mr Mtolo: Sir, it is the same with the DMMU, whose budget we just passed. The unit releases grain in areas where there are elections and the ECZ is rendered toothless. We need to review the Electoral Act. Not only would it be good for the Opposition now, it would eventually be good for the party which is in power now.
Mr Chairperson, the Executive does not respect the ECZ. For instance, we were privileged to have two Zambia Air Force (ZAF) planes land, one after the other, at Chipata Airport one time.
Mr Mbulakulima: A convoy?
Mr Mtolo: Yes, a convoy of planes.
Laughter
Mr Mtolo: Mr Chairperson, imagine the cost of a plane flying from Lusaka to Chipata with only four people on board.
Mr Mwale: Ah!
Mr Mtolo: Sir, only four people disembarked from the first plane (Indicating by the count of his fingers 1, 2, 3, 4).
Interruptions
Hon. Opposition Members: Mention them!
Mr Mtolo: Sir, I will not.
Sir, hardly an hour passed before another plane, full of journalists picked from Kitwe, landed. What type of resource management is this? This is where the ECZ should come in and arrest the situation because it might be the PF today, the UPND tomorrow, the MMD after tomorrow and, thereafter, the National Restoration party (NAREP). This is a waste of resources. We should check this because it is not right. A whole plane cannot carry four people from here to Chipata. Where was the ECZ?
Interruptions
Mr Mtolo: Sir, if I had lost the by-election, I would have sued and taken that as evidence to court because I captured everything on film.
Mr Chairperson, I also want to talk about the commissioners on the ECZ Board. I think that it is important …
Mr Mwaliteta interjected.
Mr Mtolo: Sir, if you do not protect me, I will respond to Hon. Mwaliteta because I have heard his voice.
Mr Chairperson, we need to sit down and properly establish who should make up the ECZ Board. We could have members from the Law Association of Zambia (LAZ) and major political parties. As it is now, it is the Head of State who uses his prerogative to come up with the composition of the board. That is a danger because one day, we will have a Head of State that is not straight.
Mr Mbulakulima: He is the one we have.
Mr Muntanga: He is already there.
Mr Mtolo: Mr Chairperson, I want to talk about the need to give the ECZ the authority to set the dates for general elections. The setting up of the general election date should not be the privilege of one person. It should be a known date.
Mr Mwale: Hear, hear!
Mr Mtolo: Sir, people should not be ambushed with the date for general elections. The date for the elections should be set well in advance so that people can plan their campaigns properly.
Mr Chairperson, in conclusion, as much as I support the budget for the ECZ, I still think that we need to allocate more funds to it. The commission should be allowed to buy its own helicopters and not use the ZAF planes. The rainy season is here and with elections imminent in most areas, we will need helicopters around. Let us allow the ECZ to be strong enough to have its own means of carrying ballot boxes and enough representatives from participating political parties.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Mulusa (Solwezi Central): Mr Speaker, I thank you for this opportunity.
Mr Masumba: Mwa iyayi, mwane.
Mr Mulusa: Kalombo.
Mr Chairperson, in recognising the importance of the ECZ as one of the most important institutions of democracy, I would like to point out the fact that it needs to find another level of relevance beyond what it is today.
Sir, the electoral system that we have adopted comes from the western world and is a product of mechanisms of thoughts that are alien to us, including society conditions that are not similar to ours. The violence, nepotism, tribalism and favouritism are not by-products of the electoral system that we have adopted from the West.
Mr Masumba interjected.
Mr Mulusa: Sir, this calls for us to empower the ECZ to ensure that it graduates from an institution which appears to be dictated to and manipulated into one that can give us true relevance in terms of maturing the democracy that we have. Remember that democracy in the western world was a product of development.
Mr Masumba interjected.
Mr Mulusa: Sir, if we are defeating democracy in our own country, then we are not going anywhere.
Mr Masumba interjected.
Mr Mulusa: Sir, …
The Chairperson: Order!
Hon. Mulusa needs to be protected. The hon. Member who is sitting next to him must go back to his seat if he is going to interject the whole time.
Laughter
The Chairperson: Order!
Hon. Minister, I think that you should move to your seat.
Hon. Masumba got up and went back to resume seat.
Laughter
Mr Mulusa: Sir, …
The Chairperson: Order!
I am not taking anything away from you. You may continue.
Laughter
Mr Mulusa: Sir, in supporting the budget allocation to the ECZ, I would like to propose to the hon. Minister of Finance that, can he, in the interim, engage the ECZ and see if he can come up with a fund that can empower it to undertake research and increase its relevancy. I will pose a question here: Are we sure that the 158 Members here assembled, although we are not allowed to discuss ourselves, are actually the best 150 Zambians out of the 14 million Zambians?
Mr Lungu: Question.
Mr Mulusa: Mr Chairperson, …
Mr Mtolo: No.
Mr Mulusa: … we are not the best. I am certain I do not belong to the best 158 Zambians out of the 14 million. I am here as a result of a flawed electoral system. We allow each political party …
Mr Chairperson: Order!
Sir, I do not think we should take that as a fact. I think that we are all here because we were elected as representatives of the people. I think that it would not be fair for me to just let you go with that statement because out there, it will convey a wrong impression. So, we have to be careful about what we say.
Can you continue.
Mr Mulusa: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for your guidance. May Hon. Chitotela either keep quiet or go out. He is really disturbing me. I …
Mr Chitotela: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.
Mr Mulusa: … am sorry about what I said.
Sir, we should allow each political party to independently …
Mr Chitotela: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson
Mr Chairperson: A point of order is raised.
Mr Chitotela: Mr Chairperson, I am quietly seated here listening to the hon. Member, who lost elections to the MMD’s Vice-President for Political Affairs, Dr Kaingu, debating. Even if there was a re-run, he would have still lost the elections.
Mr Chairperson: What is your point of order? Do not go …
Mr Chitotela: Is he in order Mr Chairperson to drag my name into his debate. I need your serious ruling.
Hon Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Chairperson: I saw that when he was debating, you were trying to engage him, so he is in order.
Laughter
Mr Chairperson: Can you continue, Hon. Mulusa.
Mr Mulusa: Mr Chairperson, the current electoral system that we have adopted allows individual political parties to engage electorates independently and almost unsupervised. The different enticements which different political parties use may not lead the country to get the best products out of its electoral system.
Sir, that is why earlier, I appealed to the hon. Minister of Finance to allocate funds to the ECZ so that it can undertake research and see how it can tweak the electoral system that is alien to us, to suit our unique circumstances so that it may have the best products out of our 14 million Zambians unlike at the moment when, I am afraid to say, some people may walk into this House out of riding on the back of another person’s popularity.
For instance, Sir, I do not believe that in 2016, most of the people seated on your right will come back here because they came here in 2011 on the back of the popularity of President Sata.
Interruptions
Mr Mulusa: Sir, let them not argue because Mr Sata is listening.
Laughter
Mr Muntanga: Who is arguing?
Mr Mulusa: Mr Chairperson, the ECZ should be allowed to manage the electoral process from the beginning, right through to the end. For instance, from the time of United National Independence Party (UNIP), to date, debate, as a mechanism for people to choose between competing candidates, has eluded us. Even at presidential level, there is absolutely no time when you see candidates engaging themselves in a debate so that the people may choose the best. In fact, previously, at presidential level, we saw candidates debating about who was more handsome than the other, when both of them are very old men.
Laughter
Mr Mulusa: Mr Chairperson, that did not give any chance to the Zambians to realise what each presidential candidate could provide as a service to the Zambians. We end up getting to know or assess our leaders at the time when they have already been elected into Government. Therefore, I would like to appeal to the ECZ to change the way we do things.
Sir, Hon. Mucheleka is louder than I am.
Mr Chairperson: Why can you not ignore him.
Mr Mulusa: Sir, he is talking louder than I am and that is disturbing.
Mr Chairperson: Order! You know …
Mr Mulusa: Sir, …
Mr Chairperson: Order! You are the person who started it and then you are …
Mr Mucheleka: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.
Mr Chairperson: Normally, we advise people debating to ignore those that are making remarks while seated. Please, ignore the rantings which are being made by those who are seated. Can you continue, Hon. Mulusa.
Mr Mulusa: Mr Chairperson, we must allow the Zambian people an opportunity to choose the best amongst themselves to represent them. I want to believe that the ECZ can do a lot in that regard …
Mr Mucheleka: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.
Mr Chairperson: A point of order is raised.
Mr Mucheleka: Mr Chairperson, I have sat here quietly, listening to my very good friend, Hon. Mulusa, debate. Is he in order to accuse his friends on your right side of having ridden on somebody’s back when he himself was brought here by the former President, with a bag of money?
Mr Muntanga: Fraudulently.
Hon. Government Members: Ema point of order aya.
Mr Chairperson: You see others are saying, “Ema point of aya”.
Laughter
Mr Chairperson: No, the Chair does not agree with that. Can you continue, Hon. Mulusa.
Mr Mulusa: Sir, I want to believe that, if the independence of the ECZ was enhanced, it would contribute quite a lot to ensuring that this country moves forward.
Sir, the issue of debates is extremely important and would carry with it funding needs. I think candidates need to be subjected to public scrutiny. Let Zambians migrate from voting for people on the basis of a political party or on the basis of a popular head of a political party. Let each candidate be subjected to public scrutiny so that at the end of the day, when we are gathered here, we will, indeed, be the best 158 Zambians out of the 14 million.
Sir, I wish to urge that the hon. Minister of Finance to introduce another line of funding for the ECZ so that it can enhance the country’s democracy.
I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}
Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Chairperson, thank you for the opportunity. I will also be very brief like my colleagues.
Sir, in supporting the allocation, I have a few comments to make. My comments are limited to the fact that we are living in a country that is bound by the rule of law and also that the ECZ is an institution that provides the greatest ingredient for our democracy. I also want to note that democracy actually stands as a backbone in any development agenda and, therefore, must always cherished it.
Sir, we have come a long way in this world and have had two types of leaderships, the democracies and autocracies. We have learnt from history that democracies have lasted much longer than autocracies.
Mr Speaker, coming back home here in Zambia, the ECZ plays a pivotal role in keeping our society …
Interruptions
The Chairperson: Order!
Mr Nkombo: … in good shape. The ECZ is a major player in efforts to keep Zambia an indivisible, unitary democratic State.
Sir, I want to take a leaf from what happened last year. The total allocation for this institution last year stood at around K58 billion which is now K58 million rebased. Now, it has gone up to K107,484,858 because of certain programmes. However, with regard to the governance style of the PF Government, the amount of money which has been budgeted for the work of the ECZ is far too little for it to make any meaningful contribution to the country’s growing democracy.
Sir, we have a law in this country that provides that there shall be continuous voter registration. This is because people graduate from adolescence into adulthood at different times. There is a need to ensure that people are not disfranchised.
Sir, I removed my spectacles and then wore them again, but did not see any figure that is attached to continuous voter registration in the Yellow Book. The amount of money that has been gobbled this year by the useless by-elections far exceeds what was budgeted for. I am told that it was somewhere in the range of …
Mr Muntanga: K2 billion!
Mr Nkombo: Sir, the money which has been spent on by-elections is far more than what was budgeted for.
Sir, I also want to say that the local authorities and the Ministry of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education play a major part in elections. These are the people that the commission depends on each time there are elections. Normally, the town clerks become the presiding officers and the teachers, polling officers. They all play a part.
Sir, under the PF Government, these very important players have been victimised. We have, in our possession, a letter calling for the transfer of eighteen teachers in Livingstone who are alleged to be anti-PF. As I speak to you now, they have all been scattered. Some are in Chililabombwe, Mansa and elsewhere, simply because the PF thinks that the teachers are not supporters of the party.
Sir, I think this should be reversed. I can see the hon. Minister of Justice nodding his head.
Interruptions
Mr Nkombo: Sir, as I said in my opening remarks, there have been dictators on this earth and I can name them all.
Mr Nkombo talking with his hand in his pocket.
Mr Mutale: Iwe, Nkombo, fumya amaboko mu tumba!
Mr Mutale: On a point of order, Sir.
Mr Livune: Aaa, imwe, ba mudala, ikaleni fye!
The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.
Mr Mwale: Naimwe epo mwaba?
Laughter
Mr Mutale: Mr Speaker, is Hon. Gary Nkombo, who is debating so well, in order to debate with his hands in his pockets? I need your serious ruling, Sir.
Laughter
The Chairperson: Well, that is his style of debating.
Laughter
The Chairperson: Hon. Member, you may continue, please.
Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, since it is a House-keeping rule, I will keep my hands out of my pockets.
We have had dictators in this world from Europe to Africa and they have all gone. We had the Nicolae Ceausescu of this world and manipulators like Adolf Hitler and Muammar Gaddafi. We have had our own domestically who are not here to defend themselves. I will not mention them because I have limited my list to those who are now dead.
Laughter
Mr Nkombo: Sir, we have had people like Benito Mussolini and Mobuto Wazabanga Seseseko from the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC). All these people ruled using an iron fist.
Mr Muntanga: Now, they are gone!
Mr Nkombo: Sir, this is the route that I see the PF taking. They preach one song and then dance to another.
Mr Muntanga: Oh my God!
Mr Nkombo: Sir, that is how the Don’t Kubeba doctrine works. They will say all the flamboyant things here but, when they go out there, they do the opposite. The MMD Government was not so good, but these ones are bad.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Nkombo: Sir, in Mufumbwe, I saw people wielding guns during campaigns. In Livingstone, on Mosi-O-Tunya Road, a known individual, in the company of the ECZ officials was driving back and forth from the Museum to different parts while wielding a gun and shooting in the air. They even abducted a councillor who was monitoring elections at Libala School and took him to a candidate’s house …
Ms Kapata: On a point of order, Sir.
Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!
The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.
Mr Nkombo: Today, he is an hon. Deputy Minister.
Mrs Kapata: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Member debating in order to threaten the officers from the ECZ that are seated in here. Is he allowed to do that? I need your serious ruling.
The Chairperson: Well, I do not think we should be debating people who are here, but cannot defend themselves. However, he is generally talking about the ECZ. If the officers are here, we will just take note of their presence.
Laughter
The Chairperson: Hon. Member, you may continue.
Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, I have not even seen them. All I know is that they exist.
Mr Muntanga: Hear, hear!
Interruptions
Mr Nkombo: Sir, the noble Zambians from the ECZ have had a daunting task of doing a good job under the PF.
Mr Musukwa: Question!
Mr Livune: Yes!
Mr Nkombo: Sir, we have an Electoral Code of Conduct that governs our electoral system.
Sir, my teacher told me that empty cans make a lot of noise. I hear a can from your right hand side.
Hon. Government Members: Question!
Mr Nkombo: Sir, the Electoral Code of Conduct seeks to level the playing field for all political players. We used to complain together with these PF people in this same House that the MMD was blacking us out from the national broadcaster. However, today, the situation is worse under the PF.
Sir, I have toned down my voice because the story I am about to narrate is sad. During the campaigns for the Livingstone By-election, some senior people in the PF, late at night, fought each other. Some people got injured and one person died.
Sir, the next thing I saw was a headline attributed to the Minister of Justice, saying the UPND was responsible for the death of Diakoka. The Electoral Code of Conduct does not permit such kind of fallacies because it tilts the level playing field for politics. As though that was not enough, there was another sad story. Another person died under circumstances we are yet to know. Some of us were thrown in jail and while in there, I saw, on television, the same man, who is a brother, and is right now scratching his head, …
Mr Muntanga: Is he your brother?
Mr Nkombo: Sir, he is a brother, regardless of what he thinks inside his head. He was on television saying that the people who killed the second individual were in jail, and I was the one in jail then.
Mr Muntanga: Is he a lawyer?
Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, the extent to which people go, in order to handle their appetite for, power should be limited. You cannot skin your own brother in the name of winning an election.
Mr Muntanga: Is he your brother?
Laughter
Mr Nkombo: Sir, that should not be done. Upon being sworn in, President Sata promised to govern this country based on the Ten Commandments. Which ones? I cannot quote the Bible but you know …
Interruptions
The Chairperson: Order!
Why can the others not listen without interjecting.
Interruptions
Mr Nkombo: Gentlemen and lady, listen.
The Chairperson: Please, let him debate uninterrupted.
Mr Nkombo: Sir, the point I am making is that, there are extents to which we can go in trying to assume power. Thou shall not bear false witness is one of those Ten Commandments. I said earlier, that the PF will say one thing and do another.
Mr Chairperson, in supporting the budget, my substantive point is that, there is a need for all Zambians, who have attained the voting age, to be registrated. Seeing that there is no provision in this Budget, which was laid on this Table by the hon. Minister of Finance, those of us who want to abide by the law are left with no option but to move a Private Members’ Motion, that monies be allocated for continuous voter registration. The mobile registers should go into the countryside and ensure that all those Zambians who are being disenfranchised, because of the deliberate reduction of allocation of money to the ECZ, are registered. I also think that, in all seriousness, more polling stations should be opened to reduce the distances which people have to travel in order to go and vote. That is part of enfranchising people. I know that the hon. Minister is a democrat, and understands that there is an absolute need that one of the gifts that he is going to bequeath us, because he is older than all of us, including His Honour the Vice-President, is to ensure that all the Zambians who are eligible to vote, enjoy the right. If these Zambians who have attained voting age decide not to vote, it should be out of their own apathy or irresponsibility. When we start looking at the Budget allocation to the Ministry of Home Affairs, I will tell Hon. Edgar Lungu that National Registration Cards (NRCs) should be top on the agenda. This is because for one to qualify to vote, he or she ought to be a bearer of an NRC.
Mr Chairperson, finally, the unfortunate situation that came about as a result of the Mkaika By-election should not repeat itself in this country. I am appealing to the conscience of all hon. Members that, should they face a tsunami due to the misadventure of resigning from one political party to go to another, and then lose an election, they should not go behind their desk at home and try to manipulate the President so as to reduce the dignity of the people whom they represented in this House for more than seven years. In an attempt of manipulation, you ask the President to withdraw the Social Cash Transfer, the food security pack and project of paving roads.
Mr Muntanga: Are they fair?
Hon. UPND Members: No!
Mr Nkombo: Sir, people should not use elections and people’s choices to disadvantage them. At this stage, I want to say that I support the allocation which has been given to the ECZ.
Mr Musukwa: Order!
Mr Nkombo: Order, what, you?
I thank you, Sir.
The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, I want to thank everyone who contributed to this debate. It will be churlish, perhaps, to point out that a lot of what was said might have been relevant in a debate over an amendment or a new Bill to cover the ECZ. Not much of what was said is relevant to the budget of the ECZ. I will just quickly comment on the complaint by Hon. Muntanga about the money for by-elections.
Sir, the money for by-elections cannot be accurately estimated. Most of the by-elections that have already taken place. If I am not mistaken, the ministry has estimated the budget for 2014, for by-elections, like it did in 2013. The ministry did not see any reason of allocating a lot of money for by-elections. There are complaints about there being no money for the demarcation of boundaries. This has just been moved from the Delimitation of Constituency Boundaries in Activity 006 – K4,000,000 under Vote 05/01 to a much larger Vote in Activity 703 – Constitutional and Referendum Related Processes – K44,226,241. This is clever because it means if the referendum does not take place, then money will be available for quicker and more accurate delimitation. If that does not happen, we shall come up with supplementary estimates …
Interruptions
The Chairperson: Order, on my right.
The Vice-President: … for the delimitation exercise. So, I think, complaining is a little bit out of place in the circumstances we are in. Of course, we all would love continuous voter registration. None of us benefits from discontinuous registration. I do not see how it benefits the UPND, PF, MMD or independent candidates. When we passed that law, it was done in good faith, but we have not been able to fit it into the Budget. However, we are determined to try to do it in the 2015 Budget.
Sir, I beg to move that the Estimates be adopted.
Vote 05/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
VOTE 07 (Office of the Auditor - General – K86,166,427).
The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, it is with great honour and privilege that I stand here to now present the 2014 Budget for the Office of the Auditor - General.
Interruptions
The Chairperson: Order!
You see, we are not listening. Let us have order so that we can hear what is contained in the policy debate on the Office of the Auditor-General so that if we have any questions or clarifications later on, they can be in their context.
The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, my Government recognises the important role that the Office of the Auditor-General plays in promoting accountability, good governance and transparency in the utilisation of public resources. It is the duty of the Auditor-General to audit and give an assurance that all the revenues are collected and accounted for.
Mr Chairperson, the principle functions and responsibilities of the Auditor-General are set out in Article 121 of the Constitution and in the Public Finance Act No. 15 of 2004 and also in the Public Audit Act Cap. 378 of the Laws of Zambia. These statutes require that the Auditor-General audits public accounts, accounts of statutory corporations and private institutions that receive Government subventions, including donor-funded …
Interruptions
The Chairperson: Order!
I hate naming people. On my right, do you want me to start calling out the hon. Members who are making noise? That is unbecoming behavior.
The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, I was saying the Auditor-General is also required to audit donor-funded projects. In this respect, the Auditor-General conducts external audits on the Government and other public funds and submits reports to Parliament on how public resources have been utilised.
Mr Chairperson, this House appropriated more than K85 million for the 2013 activities of this office. I am glad to report that, so far, my Government has managed to disburse 96.18 per cent of the funding as of October, 2013 for operations.
Mr Chairperson, although the Auditor-General is required to audit all ministries, departments and institutions, including private ones receiving Government subventions, the office has, like any other Government institution, faced financial constraints, but has consistently managed to carry out its mandate. My Government recognises the need to allocate adequate resources to this important institution if it is to contribute meaningfully to the accountability process in our country.
Sir, the Government shall continue to support various interventions in order to make the Office of the Auditor-General more effective in its operations. Such interventions shall include:
(a) timely release of funding to audit operations;
(b) responding to audit inquiries in a timely manner;
(c) acting on recommendations from the Auditor-General and this House as may be contained in the Report of the Public Accounts Committee (PAC); and
(d) facilitating capacity building programmes for auditors to keep them in line with international standards and global trends in auditing.
Mr Chairperson, the Office of the Auditor-General has plans to undertake various activities in 2014 with a total budget exceeding K86 million. This is the barest minimum required to undertake programmes which, among others, include:
(a) financial audits of 2013 Government accounts;
(b) audit of parastatal bodies and review of their operations;
(c) audit of implementation of Government projects, including donor-funded projects;
(d) performance, environmental and information technology audits of selected Government programmes;
(e) capacity building of staff in audit standards, guidelines and methodology;
(f) quality assurance activities in audit processes; and
(g) monitoring and evaluation.
Interruptions
The Chairperson: Order!
I think we have a problem, Your Honour the Vice-President with the people on my right. There must be, obviously, something wrong. How can it be that the people on the right, when His Honour the Vice-President is making a policy statement, are the ones who are making noise? Hon. Ministers and hon. Deputy Ministers, for that matter. Please, can we, for once, heed the Chair’s advice.
Hon. Opposition Members interjected.
The Chairperson: Order!
I did not ask you to assist me in giving guidance.
Laughter
The Chairperson: Can we give His Honour the Vice-President a chance to be heard. He is talking and you are talking, that is unbelievable.
Interruptions
The Chairperson: Order!
The Vice-President: The Office of the Auditor-General shall continue to audit many things including Hon. Gary Nkombo’s real age. Since he calls me an old man, I am also questioning his longevity on this earth.
Laughter
The Vice-President: Sir, the auditors shall audit the following:
(a) the infrastructure development such as construction of roads, universities, schools and youth skills development centres in newly-created districts and existing ones;
(b) both tax and non-tax revenues;
(c) agricultural investment;
(d) health and education reforms; and
(e) programmes and activities where in the past serious weaknesses have been reported on in the Auditor-General’s report.
Sir, notwithstanding the mammoth task the Auditor-General has and challenges outlined above, my Government remains optimistic that she shall execute her mandate diligently. With these few words, I now seek the support of this honourable House to pass the budget for the Office of the Auditor-General.
I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}
Mr Mwale (Chipangali): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for this opportunity to make a contribution. Indeed, the Office of the Auditor-General is very important. It is a good governance office that we really need in this country to help us, especially us, on this side as the Opposition, to keep the Executive in check. For us to provide proper oversight over the financial performance of the Executive, we need this office to produce reports which are tabled and used by the Public Accounts Committee (PAC).
Mr Chairperson, I support this budget. However, there are a few things that I want to highlight that relate to the operations of this office. Time and again, I have stood here supporting the budget for the Office of the Auditor-General and I have highlighted a number of issues to do with the independence of this office. Since the PF Government came into power, I think this is the third time that I am debating on the allocation to the Office of the Auditor-General. We heard promises on how the PF Government was going to strengthen the independence of this office, but nothing has happened to that effect. We are now in the third year of the PF reign.
Mr Chairperson, today, I even have the PF Manifesto, which I am going to quote from. Before I read the quotation, I just want to point out that this PF Manifesto is full of the MMD ideas. For these people across to come up with this manifesto, they read the MMD Manifesto first. The PF manifesto on page 44 and 45, as regards the independence of the Office of the Auditor-General, states the following:
“Under the MMD Government, the impact of the reports issued by the Auditor-General has been felt marginally by the general public due to the failure by the Executive to take necessary action to punish and correct wrongdoings as the Auditor-General is responsible to the President. The office is also not able to adequately audit the whole country in a sustainable manner. The intended independence and autonomy of the Auditor-General have been compromised due to a lack of an enabling Act of Parliament to provide for the said autonomy and independence. This has been compounded by factors such as poor budgetary allocation, inadequate human resources and limited mandate of audit which deal only with appropriation and financial statements, but excludes performance and forensic audits.”
Sir, I am failing to read properly because there is a picture that is blocking the text. However, those are the observations that have been highlighted in the PF Manifesto. In order to address the above, the PF promised that it shall enact enabling legislation to make the Auditor-General answerable to Parliament.
Sir, secondly, it promised to establish an Audit Service Commission which would be responsible for staff matters instead of the Public Service Management Commission. Thirdly, it promised to ensure that the Auditor-General’s Budget is determined by the Audit Service Commission for approval by Parliament. These are the promises which were made by the PF. It also promised to extend the Auditor-General’s mandate to undertake performance forensic and value for money audits, as well as to provide the security of tenure for the Auditor-General.
Mr Mwale: Mr Chairperson, these are the things that I have been talking about for the past two times that I have debated on this matter. We heard hon. Ministers on the other side respond that they would not allow the Office of the Auditor-General to fall under Parliament. There were others that said that they would not want the financing of the Auditor-General to be a charge on the general revenue of the public. However, the manifesto for the PF says these things. These are the things that we want to hold them accountable for. They promised Zambians that they were going to do these things and strengthen the Office of the Auditor-General. However, not even one of the things I read out have been done.
Mr Chairperson, it is very important for the Auditor-General to produce quality reports, and in order to do this, the office must be able to employ people itself. It must not depend on the Public Service Management Commission to employ people to work for it. It must have access to the required funding that it needs for it to carry out the audits that are required. Currently, the Office of the Auditor-General only does about 85 per cent to 87 per cent coverage of the audits. The motto of the Auditor-General’s Office is to follow up every ngwee wherever it is. Wherever Government money is spent, it must be able to audit and ensure that the money was put to good use. However, for now, it can only cover 85 per cent to 87 per cent of the work it should do. Instead of increasing funding, since it used to condemn the MMD Government, saying it was not able to finance the Office of the Auditor-General adequately for it to cover all the ministries, the PF has continued to do the same. It has continued to do the same even when these things are in black and white in its own manifesto.
Mr Chairperson, this Government must improve this office. It must improve the independence according to what it promised Zambians. As hon. Members of the Opposition, and as members of PAC, we will not rest until we see that the independence of this office is fully attained. I know that Zambia is a member of the United Nations (UN). Like I said last time, we have some international instruments that govern or establish the independence of the Office of the Auditor-General such as the Mexico Declaration. We were part of the Mexico Declaration on supreme audit institutions. The declaration says that the Office of the Auditor-General must be adequately financed. It must be able to have all the funding that it needs. Those instruments have been adopted by the UN, and they are now part of the UN resolutions. We are members of the UN.
Mr Chairperson, the other issue that I want to talk about is the following up on the recommendations of the Auditor-General, which later become resolutions of this House. The Auditor-General comes up with a report which is tabled before PAC. We sit as PAC to come up with recommendations which we table in this House and, when adopted, they become our own recommendations as a House. We have had problems every year in ensuring that these recommendations are implemented by our colleagues in the Executive. There are many things that we say should be done for us to stop abusing public resources and ensure that the resources that are appropriated by this House for certain programmes are fully utilised. There are certain resolutions that we come up with. However, when we table them here, we do not get very good Action-Taken Reports, we do not get very good Treasury minutes and we do not get encouraged as PAC. Later, the Office of the Auditor-General never gets encouraged by the results from the Executive. We should ensure that we do what other countries do, that is, ensuring that the Executive feels obliged to implement those resolutions that we pass here. That is the only way we can stop the abuse of resources. We have seen how imprest has been abused. We have seen how even just record keeping in the Government is so chaotic. It is so chaotic that auditors find it so hard to find the information that they need.
Mr Chairperson, we have made recommendations before on how we can proceed in certain areas. However, we do not get positive results on that. I know that we have got so many promises. I keep saying that we have got a very good Secretary to the Treasury. I think that with the Secretary to the Treasury that we have currently, we can achieve a lot. Each time we present certain things to him, he tries to take some action. However, we want to see that even you, in the Executive, take responsibility for all the things that happen in your own ministries. We cannot just depend on the Secretary to the Treasury to be working with us on certain matters. We want to see the hon. Ministers take charge of what happens in their ministries. Very few hon. Ministers take interest in audit queries. We have been dealing with matters of different ministries lacking boards and this has been highlighted by the Auditor-General. So many institutions under ministries do not have boards. This has been a problem every year. However, we do not seem to be getting anywhere with this matter. We do not seem to be getting anywhere with record keeping. We do not seem to be getting anywhere with retirement of imprest and so on and so forth. Therefore, we want this Executive to really put an effort in implementing the resolutions of PAC, which become the resolutions of this House, like it promised in its manifesto.
Mr Chairperson, lastly, I want to thank the Office of the Auditor-General. It is carrying out its noble tasks without fear or favour. It has been working very hard. The office is really trying to make sure that it produces quality reports under difficult conditions. We have heard how the Office of the Auditor-General in Zambia has been praised by many countries. We have won many accolades because most countries think that our Office of the Auditor-General is one of the best in the region. We want to move forward. We want to support this office further. The other thing that the Office of the Auditor-General needs to get into now is the issue of value for money audits. We want to move from concentrating on irregularity audits on small matters like imprest. We want to get into value for money audits and ensure that wherever we make investments as a nation, auditors must go and check to see whether we have got a good return from them or not. Many countries in Europe no longer do these kind of irregularity audits. In Germany, all the audits that are done are value for money audits. The country wants to ensure that its investments bring benefits to the nation. Here, we just see that many projects are being done without assessing their benefits. A dam is built one day, and we do not care whether anybody benefits from it or not. We do not want to see how that dam is helping the community and later, we do not even care for it. However, we want to ensure that the Office of the Auditor-General begin to do those audits. However, in order to do this, the auditors require a lot of money and investment. We need to improve on the provision that we make to that office. I agreed with His Honour the Vice-President that we need to ensure that we carry out a lot of value for money audits. Such audits require a lot of funding. Therefore, we must support this office by equipping it in terms of funding and making sure that it also has the human resource that is required.
Mr Chairperson, I want to thank you for this opportunity and I support this budget.
I thank you, Sir.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
The Chairperson: Order!
Hon. Milambo can take the Floor. However, before he says anything, let me say that I have been impressed with the decorum in which you listened to the debate by Hon. Mwale, but I was frightened because I was not sure whether you were listening.
Laughter
The Chaiperson: Order!
However, maybe, you deserve commendation.
Hon. Milambo may proceed.
Mr Milambo (Mwembeshi): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate the budget line of the Office of the Auditor-General.
Sir, the principle function and responsibility of the Office of the Auditor-General is to conduct audits on the accounts of the Central Government, parastatal bodies and any other institution that receives grants from the Government.
Mr Chairperson, the Office of the Auditor-General is mandated to undertake these functions by Article 121 of the Constitution of Zambia. The office is also mandated by the Public Finance Act No. 15 of 2004 to get power and authority from the Public Audit Act No. 8 of 1980.
Sir, allow me to look at the issue of the independence of the office as it has been outlined by Hon. Mwale.
Mr Chairperson, the Office of the Auditor-General is supposed to be very independent in its operations. The independence of the Office of the Auditor-General is disturbed by the Executive in so many ways. One way is that the Office of the Auditor-General does not employ its own staff. The members of staff for the Office of the Auditor-General are employed by the Public Service Management Division. This does not form part of best practices in this industry. You may note here that the Public Service Management Division is a client to this office. When it comes to auditing of the accounts, the auditors face a lot of trouble and difficulties to audit the accounts of their employer.
Mr Chairperson, if the Office of the Auditor-General is to be fully independent, it is desirable that its members of staff are totally delinked from the Civil Service in order for them to operate independently without fear of being victimised by their employers, as they undertake their core functions.
Sir, the other point I want to look at is the aligning of the Office of the Auditor-General to the Ministry of Finance. The Office of the Auditor-General should not in any way fall under the Ministry of Finance as this is a starting point of bad governance.
Mr Chairperson, it is worth noting that the Office of the Auditor-General works for and on behalf of Parliament in enhancing the oversight function on the Executive of this country. How then does the Office of the Auditor-General fall under the Ministry of Finance when it does not work for the Government?
Sir, in view of this, I request the hon. Minister of Finance to let the Office of the Auditor-General go where it belongs, that is, to Parliament.
Mr Chairperson, let me quickly look at the proposed budget line for this office. Best practices require that the supreme audit institutions pre-determine their own budget and, thereafter, submit them directly to Parliament for approval. This is what is obtaining elsewhere. This is what is obtaining in other countries within the Southern African Development Community (SADC) region.
Sir, in light of this, I want to request the hon. Minister of Finance not to determine the budget for the Office of the Auditor-General for 2015, as doing so will be going against the best practices which require that supreme audit institutions pre-determine their own budgets. To make matters worse, the Ministry of Finance is the auditee number one. How then should it determine the budget for the Office of the Auditor-General?
Mr Chairperson, may I now look at the actual proposed budget. The proposed budget for the Office of the Auditor-General for 2014 has increased by K1.12 million compared to the 2013 budget. This increase will not amount to anything if we critically analyse the activities which will be undertaken by this office.
Sir, the Office of the Auditor-General has increased its activities by undertaking serious audits like value for money system and performance audits. These new audits are being undertaken alongside irregularity audits. In view of this, my message to the hon. Minister is that of adjusting the proposed amount upwards for this office.
Mr Chairperson, I would like to conclude by urging the PF Government to take seriously, the recommendations of the PAC on the Reports of the Auditor-General so as to safeguard the resources of this country.
I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}
Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Mr Chairperson, I would like to support this Vote. I will speak on behalf of the people of Kalabo on the Office of the Auditor-General.
Sir, when you go to Kalabo, you will see nothing. You must read much because those who read much know a lot of things. Those who do not read know very little. Just yesterday, I was in the Office of the Council Secretary. I want to attach the work of the Office of the Auditor-General to the failure to develop Kalabo.
Mr Chairperson, the Government is expected to allocate resources to the development of rural areas.
Mr Muntanga: Hear, hear!
Mr Miyutu: Sir, I believe that the creation of the Auditor-General’s Office was intended to facilitate and enhance development in rural areas, but that is not happening. Money is being allocated and sent to the rural areas, but it is not reaching its intended destination.
Hon. Government Members: Where does it go?
Mr Miyutu: Sir, I wonder what some people are doing in Government. I believe that when a Government is elected, it must have a purpose. That purpose is to deliver. What is to deliver? It is to improve the lives of the people.
Sir, I am speaking to the Government as a layman who observes what they do not see.
Hon. Opposition Member: Yes!
Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, we are counting two complete years of the PF Government being in power without money reaching the right places.
Mr Livune interrupted.
Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, I was looking in the dictionary for the definition of the word ‘audit.’ It says that an audit is an official query. This means that a simple inspection or checkup cannot be called an audit. For it to qualify as an audit, it has to be an official query. If a inspection is conducted by the Office of the Auditor-General and a report is produced, what follows next?
Hon. Opposition Member: Arrests.
Mr Miyutu: Sir, we are not seeing what we want to see. What the Government should know is that there are three entities that are questioned over the misuse of funds. These few people are being questioned for the lack of development in the rural areas. Who are these? The Member of Parliament is questioned whenever the water wells are not sufficient. The councillor is questioned over things such as culverts.
Hon. Opposition Member: You just second and propose.
Laughter
Mr Miyutu: Sir, the Government is also questioned.
Mr Livune: Non-performing Government.
Laughter
Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, a number of reports have highlighted cases of fraud and abuse without anyone getting arrested.
Ms Lubezhi: We will arrest them.
Mr Miyutu: Sir, when I was talking to the Council Secretary yesterday, a lot of questions were left unanswered regarding the money which was sent to Kalabo. We have been expecting to see the fruits of the K1 million which was sent to Kalabo. We have not seen any fruits. There have been no arrests and reports are piling up on tables. Are the people going to eat those reports? The reports are supposed to lead to people being punished.
Sir, I believe the idea of coming up with a report is to see whether we have achieved our goals or not. If we have not achieved our goals, we need to establish why that is the case.
Hon. Opposition Member: They must resign.
Mr Miyutu: Sir, a responsible Government with the interest of the people at the bottom of its heart should act when some people are discovered to have misused public funds.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Miyutu: Sir, those who live in the rural areas see how large the margin is between the rural and urban areas. Unfortunately, the Government does not seem to make any serious effort to develop the rural areas at the same level as the urban areas. The idea of urbanisation is not only restricted to one place.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Miyutu: Sir, it is not only restricted to Lusaka. Even Kalabo can be turned into an urban area.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Miyutu: Sir, however, it seems that the Government wants to make the rural areas more impoverished. If that is what they want, then, they should not occupy their offices.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, if their idea is not to create urban areas so as to lessen the levels of poverty in rural areas, then, they should leave their office. Public funds are supposed to take power and water to the villages.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, there is a village in Nigeria where you will find people drawing water from a tap. Are we not able to have such a village in Zambia? What is it that we do not have? Do we not have flesh, minds and souls?
Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!
Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, I believe that every province has the Auditor-General’s Office. How frequent do such offices visit the districts and, if they do, how well do they conduct themselves when they are making the inspections? Do they really do their audits well? Do they not compromise their inspections when they are there?
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Miyutu: Sir, when an auditor visits a district, he is accommodated and fed.
Mr Hamududu: Do not stop, mwana, do not stop.
Mr Miyutu: Sir, how do you expect this auditor to do a good job? Do you think the auditor will write anything bad about this person who has fed and accommodated him as well as offered him transport? That is the reason we do not see development in the rural areas.
Sir, my plea to the Government is the same as that of Hon. Mwale. Let us empower the Auditor- General’s Office so that it can visit all the rural areas properly so that the money which is allocated to the ministries is prudently used. I know that the PF wants a second term. They will not get it if money is not seen in Kalabo. If the people of Kalabo do not drink clean water, then, they will not give them their votes. In order for the Government to get the trust of the people, they have to ensure that this money reaches them. Let the people know that somebody has been arrested for misusing funds.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, the Auditor-Generals Report should not just be a book for decorations on the shelf. It should be a tool for prosecuting offenders so that those who have the intention of wrongdoing can reconsider.
Sir, there is a story in which a rabbit was asked how it learnt how to share. It said that it learnt how to share when it saw its friend being eaten by a lion.
Interruptions
Mr Miyutu: Sir, if people are not going to see others being punished for misusing Government resources, the stealing of such funds will not end.
Laughter
Hon. Opposition Members: Stealing prudently.
Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, I understand that sometime next year, some people will celebrate a jubi …
Laughter
Mr Miyutu: What is it called? A golden what?
Hon. Opposition Members: Golden Jubilee.
Mr Miyutu: Sir, I do not know whether the people of Kalabo will celebrate the Golden Jubilee. Why? It is because public funds have not been reaching them for forty-nine years.
Sir, did you know that we should have had a 66 kv line at Sikongo before 1972?
Hon. Opposition Member: Where is it?
Mr Miyutu: Sir, some people somewhere did not tell the First Republican President the truth.The people who ran the system at the time did not do the right thing. This is how the people who occupy the Government offices block development in areas where they do not reside. They dislike the rural areas, but like the money that should have gone there and this is what surprises me.
Laughter
Mr Miyutu: Sir, I wish I could punch them for hating Kalabo. Why should they use the money that is meant for Kalabo on other things?
Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!
Mr Miyutu: Sir, just wait. One day, we shall have the power. You will see what we shall do to all those culprits who misuse public funds. Let them go to Kalabo. They will see what we shall do to them. That year is just about a few weeks from now.
Laughter
Mr Miyutu: Sir, immediately we are in power, you will see. Some people will even run away because they know how much they have stolen from us. We are not going to let them go scot-free. Where can they run to? The only place we cannot reach is heaven. Apart from heaven, there is nowhere we shall fail to reach. We shall catch them by whatever means and bring them to this House.
With those few words, I thank you, Sir.
Laughter
Mr Hamududu (Bweengwa): Mr Chairperson, I rise to support the vote for the Office of the Auditor-General. I agree with most of the issues that have been raised by my colleagues and I will not belabour them. I think the Report of the Auditor-General should lead to an improvement in our public finance management. We should see value for money projects and improved service delivery. That is a final objective of this whole process. I think, so far, over the years, the Office of the Auditor-General has produced results that are enough as a tool to improve the governance system of our country in the area of public finance management.
Mr Chairperson, I think the Auditor-General has actually touched on a number of the main types of audits. This year, particularly, we were very impressed to have received the performance audit, for example, on gender mainstreaming. I think that helped the Committee dealing with gender to see how the Government is doing with regard to gender mainstreaming. We need to begin to gauge the performance of our Government beyond irregularities. We must not only be stuck at just looking at financial irregularities but also begin to delve into service delivery issues. This office must be supported with adequate resources and human resource in order for it to be able to give us the tools to use in our function as Parliament. I think the samples that they have brought to this House have helped us. I was very impressed with the performance audit on gender mainstreaming and the one on the supply of medicines. I think a year or so ago, there was a performance audit on the Food Reserve Agency (FRA). Those reports bring out issues that can help us to see where there are loopholes which need to be sealed.
Mr Chairperson, it is possible to have a ministry not appearing in the irregularity report of the Auditor-General’s Report, yet that ministry is not producing results. Therefore, we need the different types of reports to help us to deal with, especially, the issue of service delivery. The report that we have had, for example, on gender mainstreaming showed us how as a Government we have not implemented some of the agreements that we have signed over the years. It also showed us how our own laws that we have passed in this House have not been implemented to promote the issue of gender equity.
Mr Chairperson, over the years, the Report of the Auditor-General has remained very thick. This means that the irregularities are not reducing. I have been reading these reports for many years, even before I came to this House. We are actually not improving. The situation is getting worse over the years. I think now, we must go to the root cause. We are just scratching. Let us go outside the box and begin to investigate the issues surrounding the root cause of these increasing irregularities. Most of the studies now are beginning to show that we need to go beyond just having the report, going through the process and then we tabling it here. We need to invest a little more in other areas. One of the issues that has been revealed is that integrity in public office is reducing over the years. The abuse of resources and corruption is increasing. I think that those who are in public offices must be assessed so that we raise the integrity bar in the public offices.
Sir, when I went to Rwanda, I was very impressed to see that they have the Compatibility Public Office. They can even say, for example, Hon. Hamududu, you are not compatible with public office because of ABC. It is beyond just in the office and what you do. It is more or less about the life around you because there are drivers that push people to commit certain offences. These controlling officers are more educated and qualified than even most of us in this House, but how come they are abusing resources? Do they not know the rules? They do. Now, what is the real problem? It is the issue of integrity. Sometimes, you will find that they ask political office bearers to declare their assets and yet, you do not even sign cheques. The people who drive the transactions do not declare their assets.
Sir, in Rwanda they have other problems, but at least on public finance management, we can learn something from them. Every officer up to the last person declares his or her assets when they are employed. People in purchasing, procurement and accountants, for example, must declare their assets because these are the drivers of transactions. To my surprise, in Zambia, we focus just on the political office holders who do not even sign some of these documents. We need to put systems that eventually will catch those who abuse resources and those who are corrupt. I think in supporting this Vote, I want to appeal to this Government to invest more in other areas. Beyond the audit report, you should go down and see what the cause of these ever- increasing financial irregularities is. Most of the hon. Members of Parliament here are councillors. For example, the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) has become a victim of abuse by some public officers. We mean well when we ask for an increased CDF, but some public officers in the councils who have low levels of integrity are abusing this fund. They are cutting corners in the application of the CDF. The officers are spoiling the name of this good fund. Therefore, we must put systems in place to remove those who are not compatible with better financial management. There are systems that can do that. The Office of the Investigator- General, which is called the Office of the Ombudsman in other countries, deals with issues of compatibility in public offices. Other people must just go and run businesses because they are not compatible with the public office. If we keep them inside the public office, we will have problems for many years to come. We must go beyond just looking at the report. Even arresting those officers is not a solution. Compatibility issues are more important.
Mr Chairperson, the Report of the Office of the Auditor-General that we receive is like a mirror. If you look at yourself in a mirror and you see some dirt, go back and find out the cause of that dirt. Do not break the mirror. You should even make it better. That is what my colleagues are saying here. They are talking about the need for this office to be independent and for resources to be given to it.
Mr Speaker, the next issue that is affecting the Government in office now is the lack of stability in the Civil Service. For you to improve public finance management, you need a stable Civil Service, especially, at controlling officer level. We frequently change Permanent Secretaries. This is affecting accountability. The people that appear even before public accounts are people who were not there when the crimes were committed. Sometimes, we are dealing with, wrong people.
The Chairperson: Order!
Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.
[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES
in the Chair]
Mr Hamududu: Mr Chairperson, we must go beyond the usual ritual of the same old reports, hearings and an arrest here and there. I think there is a need to be creative when dealing with the irregularities in the finance management of this country. We also need to ensure that service delivery is improved and people can get value for their hard-earned money. If we do not go outside the box, we will remain in the usual ritual the Auditor-General’s Report will continue thickening and there will be no final results that our people will expect to post. What our people want is the improved management of their resources. That is the final result that must be there. We must gauge this over the years. We must have a trend analysis of how best we have fared over the years.
Sir, I also talked about the stability of the Civil Service. For us to improve accountability in the Civil Service, we need stability, especially at controlling officer level. The PF Administration must have settled down by now. It needs to get Permanent Secretaries who can deliver. The frequent changes of Permanent Secretaries who are controlling officers will give you serious problems when it comes to the Auditor-General’s Report. There are some calls, for example, when PAC sits to call the controlling officers who were there at that time …
Mr Mwale: Hear, hear!
Mr Hamududu: … when certain misdemeanours were committed.
Mr Mwale: Hear, hear!
Mr Hamududu: Mr Chairperson, that is when we can catch the actual people that are abusing resources. Currently, they are surviving and busy rotating in the system. They are leaving a trail of audit irregularities everywhere.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Hamududu: Mr Chairperson, we expect the Government to settle down and to have Permanent Secretaries who stay long in their offices so that they can be accountable for what they do.
Mr Chairperson, let me now talk about the Auditor-General’s Report with regard to parastatals. The parastatals are drinking the financial blood of the Zambian nation and they have even reached the bone marrow. The salaries of those who are in management of the parastatals are sky rocketing. However, they usually have trails of financial irregularities. It is shocking that a company like the National Housing Authority that deals in real estate business can be struggling. We see such companies lining up at the Treasury to get support. The poor management that is being revealed in the Auditor-General’s Report must not be entertained.
Mr Chairperson, the Zambian people want a return from their parastatals. They have invested a lot in the parastatals where people are enjoying good conditions of service. However, these parastatals again rush to get the little money from the Treasury that is supposed to go towards service delivery in our schools and hospitals. The Auditor-General’s Office, through its report, has given us enough information to act upon. In Future, we expect the Government to act. If we cannot run parastatals like the Zambia Daily Mail, Times of Zambia and National Housing Authority, let us partially privatise all of them. We have already seen that in companies where we have brought in private participation, there have been improvements.
Hon. Opposition Member: ZANACO.
Mr Hamududu: Sir, for example, the operations of ZANACO have improved. Even the operations of ZAMTEL improved when private hands where brought in. So, we cannot afford to continue bailing out parastatals at the expense of the poor people around the country.
Sir, finally, let me talk about the abuses that have been revealed in the Auditor-General’s Report. There is evidence of where the money is going. In this country, there is a lot of unexplained wealth. Nobody should enjoy unexplained wealth. The money that is being abused is used for building mansions. If a man or woman who is not working buys a house, he or she must explain where the money came from. This unexplained wealth is clear evidence of where the money that is being abused is going. The Civil Service must begin to deliver for the greater majority. There are mechanisms which can be used to weed out the deadwood.
With these few words, I support the Vote of the Auditor-General.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Mulusa: Sir, I thank you for this opportunity to contribute to the debate of one of our key institutions in our democracy. From the outset, I wish to state that I support the budget allocation to this institution. Secondly, I wish to recognise the developments within the Office of the Auditor-General. The office has made quite a lot of strides in terms of trying to modernise in order to match the developments in the financial and accounting world. It has also employed competent staff. With that, comes the need for more funding so that the members of staff that have been engaged competitively can be retained.
Sir, I am surprised that the amount in salaries in Division I in almost all provincial centres including the Head Office seems to be a lot higher than the budgetary allocation for Division II and below. I want to believe that an organisation such as the Auditor-General does not need to be top heavy because the role of those that are in Division I is to provide policy guidance as well as to ensure that standards are being met. However, those that do the actual work are actually in Division II and below. If we are going to have K11 million allocated to Division I officers at the Head Office and K2 million allocated to Division II and less money to the other divisions then the question is, how are they performing their functions?
Sir, it is important that we look into this and ensure that the huge salary gap between divisions is narrowed so that we have as many qualified people as possible getting attracted to this institution.
Sir, I would also like to ask the Office of the Auditor-General to request for more funding for capacity building so that its officers can be up to date with the developments in the financial world. For instance, in this country, I have noticed that skills on how to use the public-private partnership (PPP), as a procurement option, are very low. The principle for this procurement option is very simple. The public sector is simply supposed to outsource cost and risk management from the private sector because it is a better manager of both risks and costs.
Interruptions
Mr Mulusa: Sir, in this country, however, I have come across PPP contracts where the Government has actually retained costs and risks. I want to believe that this institution can do a lot in terms of highlighting these inequities and making sure that the delivery of public goods and services is done at the least cost possible. In this case, I would also like to request the Office of the Auditor-General to go beyond their call of duty and engage the necessary stakeholders who can make the work of the office easier.
Interruptions
Mr Mulusa: Sir, for instance, we have the Ministry of Finance which is the custodian of our liabilities and assets. However, does the Ministry of Finance …
Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Sir.
The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.
Mr Nkombo: I thank you, Sir (resuming his seat).
Laughter
The Deputy Chairperson: You have your point of order.
Mr Nkombo: Sir, I was simply soliciting for quietness …
Laughter
Mr Nkombo: ...and I attained it.
The Deputy Chairperson: I do not know whether to sustain the point of order or not.
However, since you were helping me, the point of order is sustained.
Laughter
The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Member proceed with your debate.
Mr Mulusa: Mr Chairperson, I was driving a point home that the Office of the Auditor-General needs to engage other stakeholders who will make its tasks easier. For instance, how is the function of asset and liabilities management being conducted in the Ministry of Finance? Does the ministry have requirements which stipulate that public institutions such as parastatals submit interim accounts at the end of the financial year within a stipulated time? If so, how come a lot of institutions are behind in terms of audits? I know that we have brought them up to date to a year behind. We can actually bring them up to date to a month behind and impose sanctions as well.
Sir, the other item which the Office of the Auditor-General needs to look into is the necessary legislation which guides the financial management of our affairs. Has it been brought up to date from the last time that it was looked at? Is it still lagging behind? Why have we politicised the misdemeanours in the management of our financial affairs. Every political party that takes power does not look at updating the necessary Acts to make sure that they guide the way we manage our affairs. Rather the law is used as a tool to punish opponents and departing governments at very huge costs.
Interruptions
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
The last Bench on my right, may we have less consultations. Your consultations are too loud and persistent.
You may continue, please.
Mr Mulusa: Sir, the Office of the Auditor-General needs to further engage the Office of the Accountant-General in terms of the issuance of best practices. The Public Finance Management Act needs to be operationalised using Treasury Regulations. Do we have these Treasury Regulations in Zambia? If not, who is issuing best practices to make sure that as public institutions are doing their work, they are up to date to with the best practices in order to make work easy for the Office of the Auditor-General?
Sir, the Auditor-General needs to go and have a chat with the Presidency in terms of what my colleagues have already referred to, that is, the frequency with which accounting officers are changed. We have seen accounting officers being changed within days.
Mr Livune: Controlling officers.
Mr Mulusa: Controlling officers, thank you for the correction.
Mr Chairperson, we have seen controlling officers being changed within months, weeks or even days. I want to believe that when one is appointed as a controlling officer, he or she takes up that position with his or her vision and values. If, therefore, one is not given an opportunity to plant his or her seed and grow a garden in which to operate, then we are saying that we have got very strong systems and do not really need people.
Sir, however, if we know that the systems that we have need sustenance and improving upon, then we should agree that people must not only be allowed to stay longer in their positions, but also that the best people must be engaged for these jobs. What is wrong with advertising the position of Permanent Secretary, for instance? Let us change the way we do our politics for once. Let us advertise the position of Permanent Secretary and allow the best Zambians to apply for these jobs so that we can take our country forward. I want to believe that the Auditor-General can do a lot when she has a pep talk with the President.
Sir, lastly, I want to talk about the issue of coverage. I know that my colleagues have spoken quite a lot on this issue. Does the Office of the Auditor-General have capacity to cover all institutions in the country? Does it have the capacity to cover every district in the country and ensure that the accounts are up to date? If it does not have the capacity, let us allocate more money so that it is able to outsource this function to private auditing firms such as Deloitte & Touche.
With these few words, Sir, I wish to support the budgetary allocation and ask that more money be allocated to those inequities that I pointed out in order to enhance the contribution of this institution to the growth of our democracy.
I thank you, Sir. {mospagebreak}
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Hamudulu (Siavonga): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for the opportunity to add my voice to the debate on the Floor.
Sir, from the outset, I would like to say I support this Vote. In supporting this Vote, I have a few observations to make.
Sir, most of my colleagues have spoken on the issue of public finance management and also on performance audits. I would like to center my debate on systems audit which is also a mandate of the Auditor-General’s Office. I would like to simplify some terms that I am going to use in my debate. For example, what do I mean when I say systems. I am talking about systems that help in Public Service delivery. This includes personnel, machinery and the technologies that we use in our public institutions.
Sir, I know that sometimes we can reach a destination even through fraudulent means or inefficient means. The money that is appropriated to this office, as I see it, is not enough to allow the Auditor-General’s Office to undertake some of these sophisticated audits that I am going to talk about here.
Mr Chairman, Public Service delivery is not done in a vacuum. There is an environment in which these things are happening which is surrounded by the private sector that has advanced in their way of doing things. The Public Service needs to match up with the systems which are being used by the private sector. How efficient are our Public Service delivery systems?
Let me give you an example. A wise man found a man seated under a tree and …
Dr Kaingu: Where?
Mr Hamudulu: … asked, why he was doing so? The man answered: “What do you want me to do?” The wise man told him to find some work. He asked the wise man what was going to happen after he had worked. He was told that after working, he would have more money. He then asked what would happen after he had more money. The wise man told him that he would become a rich person. He further asked the wise man what would, after he had become rich. The wise man told him that he would then employ others. Then he then asked what would happen after he had employed others. The wise man told him that he would then be just sitting while others worked for him. He then said that is what he was doing. He thought by just sitting there, he was a rich man. What I mean is that sometimes we can cut corners and think that we have arrived.
Mr Chairman, what sort of procedures do we use in our service delivery system? Do we have the right personnel in these public institutions? A question was asked in this House about the qualifications of the DCs, because that it is at that level where the inefficiencies and bottlenecks are. The answer we got was: “These are the people who put us in Government who have to be rewarded.” This is at the expense of efficiency in the Public Service.
Mr Chairperson, we also need to look at the technologies that we use. Are they the right technologies? How often are Public Service workers re-trained? Those are the issues that we must be looking at and systems audits can help in that regard. Is the Auditor-General’s Office able to carry out the system audits with the kind of money that it is given? The answer obviously is no.
Sir, we also need to look at the machinery that we use. Sometimes, we have high-performing machinery, but it is misplaced. I have walked in a Government office where I found state-of-the art computers being used by secretaries for word processing. That is inefficiency. You cannot use expensive machines for low-level tasks.
Mr Chairman, performance audits are also important. How do you perform without the right tools? How do you perform without the right procedures? Who carries out these system audits in these public institutions? Of course, it is supposed to the Auditor-General’s Office. Does it have the resources to do that? Does it have the trained people to do that?
Mr Chairperson, I would like to adopt Hon. Mulusa’s debate regarding the need to advertise certain positions. Performance in terms of efficiency comes with the best practices which are taught in schools. Of course, some best practices are acquired through experience. Do we have an office in our system that undertakes such audits? The Auditor-General’s Office is supposed to do that.
Mr Chairperson, who undertakes an audit of how long it takes for tasks to be accomplished in the Public Service? For example, for how long should an application for a passport take? Do you have to bribe somebody for the process to be faster? The answer is no. Is the Auditor-General’s Office equipped enough to undertake audits in terms of systems so that the right procedures, technologies and personnel are put in place?
Mr Chairperson, when I look at this very small increment from K85 million to K86 million, I do not see us doing proper systems audits through the Auditor-General’s Office. I do not know if we actually have systems auditors at the Office of the Auditor-General.
Mr Chairperson, we have signed declarations that we will allocate 10 per cent of our National Budget to agriculture. Even if we allocate that sort of money to the agriculture sector, you will not get the desired results if you do not have the right vehicles to deliver at the end of the day. We should not just focus on finance of our programmes. Let us also look at the systems that we use in order to achieve that which we have set for ourselves. Sometimes, we can have the right amounts of money, but have wrong systems in place.
Mr Chairperson, do we really need to turn a place into a district in order to bring development to it?
Mr Lombanya: No.
Mr Hamudulu: Sir, I have heard about the creation of a number of districts. This is the sitting- man syndrome that I am talking about. Is it not just an illusion or we do have the necessary facilities for Chikankata District in place?
Hon Opposition Members: No.
Mr Livune: We do not have it.
Mr Hamudulu: Sir, maybe, somebody just sat somewhere …
Mr Muntanga: Under a tree.
Mr Hamudulu: … and then said he had arrived. He then decided to create a district at Chikankata. Is that district there? There are certain procedures which we need to follow before doing some things. There are resources that are attached to certain activities. You do not just sit down and create something like that man who was just sitting and thought he had arrived.
Interruptions
The Deputy Chairperson: Order.
Mr Hamudulu: Mr Chairperson, to emphasise the importance of systems, let me give another example. I know we are not supposed to debate ourselves here. In a ministry that I will not name, we have more hon. Deputy Ministers than we need.
Mr Livune: No.
Mr Hamudulu: Sir, let us be serious for once. Do we really need all the people in those offices? That is what I am saying. If you called a systems auditor like myself, I would provide an appropriate answer. I am a trained systems auditor.
Mr Musukwa: Question, iwee.
Mr Hamudulu: Sir, I know that when we talk about certain things at a higher level, those at a lower level might not understand what we are saying.
Mr Ching’imbu: What level are you?
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Hamudulu: Sir, we cannot appologise for being a high level.
Mr Muntanga: It is the levels.
Mr Musukwa: A point of order, Mr Chairperson.
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
I want to hear more about levels.
Interruptions
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Hamudulu: Yes, Sir, if I did systems audits in some of these institutions, for example, I can tell that a task that can be done by just one person is shared among fifteen people. In the process, you induce inefficiency in the system. Let us assess ourselves. Let us go through our systems. This is not an exercise for politicians. Give it to professionals. They will go in these institutions and assess the tasks that are supposed to be done. Let them see how many people are supposed to be employed and at what level. Once that is done, we will save a lot. The bloated systems are a recipe for inefficiency and the abuse of resources.
Sir, for a country such as Zambia where the poverty levels are high, the question we should ask is: How many vehicles should be assigned to a Permanent Secretary? How many vehicles and house servants should be assigned to an hon. Minister? What sort of vehicles should be assigned to our officers? How much fuel should be assigned to an officer per month? Somebody knowledgeable must go through these systems.
Interjections
Mr Hamudulu: Those who are at the receiving end might think that this is pep talk when it is serious stuff …
Mr Muntanga: Hear, hear!
Mr Hamudulu: … that can help us to reduce the financial irregularities in our ministries. I know that some people will agree that what I am saying is right in their sleep.
Sir, what levels do we have of those officers who Permanent Secretaries report to? I am trying to be polite here. I just want to find some answers.
Laughter
Mr Hamudulu: Sir, when a Permanent Secretary comes and starts talking at a certain level, some people think that they are belittled. I have already seen that happen.
Mr Muntanga: Hear, hear!
Mr Hamudulu: Sir, with these few words, I wish to support the Vote.
I thank you, Sir.
The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, I thank everybody for their contributions and also for some of the very loud and obviously intense debates intended to search our minds.
Sir, one error is the allegation that the Auditor-General’s Office falls under the Ministry of Finance. It does not do anything of that sort. It is not even the Ministry of Finance that determines its budget. It is this House. The idea that it deserves its own budget is a little bit strange. I think some of these debates have been a bit off-the-mark.
The first speaker, Hon. Mwale, who is not here now, was talking about constitutional issues. Constitutional issues have nothing to do with budgetary allocations.
Sir, there was also a complaint about the increase in the budget being too small. There is a need for the House to be made aware that this year’s budget was augmented with K15 million of donor funding. For next year’s budget, there is no donor funding.
Again, Hon. Mwale told us that many people in the region regard our Auditor-General’s Office as the best. I would like to thank all the hon. Members for their kind comments.
I thank you, Sir.
Vote 07/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Vote 07/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Vote 07//03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Vote 07/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Vote 07/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Vote 07/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Vote 07/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Vote 07/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Vote 07/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Vote 07/10 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
VOTES 07/13 – (Office of the Auditor General – Lusaka District Office), 07/14 – (Office of the Auditor General – Kabwe District Office), 07/15 – (Office of the Auditor General – Ndola District Office), 07/16 – (Office of the Auditor General – Livingstone District Office), 07/17 – (Office of the Auditor General – Chipata District Office), 07/18 – (Office of the Auditor General – Kasama District Office), 07/19 – (Office of the Auditor General – Mansa District Office), 07/20 – (Office of the Auditor General – Solwezi District Office) and 07/21 – (Office of the Auditor General Mongu District Office).
The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Minister of Finance, what is the position on all these heads?
The Deputy Minister of Finance (Mr Mwango): Mr Chairperson, they have been moved to Vote 07/04.
The Deputy Chairperson: Thank you. That is the clarification I wanted.
Vote 07/22 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
_________
HOUSE RESUMED
[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]
(Progress Reported)
_______
MOTION
ADJOURNMENT
The Vice-President (Dr Scott): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.
Question put and agreed to.
_________
The House adjourned at 1914 hours until 1430 hours on Wednesday, 6th November, 2013.