DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE THIRD SESSION OF THE ELEVENTH ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 06th November, 2013

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER
________

MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

 INFORMATION AND COMMUNICATION TECHNOLOGIES, POSTAL ADDRESSING AND NUMBERING SYSTEM

The Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication (Mr Mukanga): Mr Speaker, I wish to thank you for according my ministry this opportunity to issue a ministerial statement on information and communication technologies (ICTs) and, specifically, the postal addressing and numbering system. I appreciate the honour to have been accorded this opportunity to inform this august House and, through it, the nation on the steps the Government has taken to establish the postal addressing and postal code system in the country to facilitate access to information.

Sir, the Government recognises that having a significant rural population poses a lot of challenges in terms of delivery of efficient social services and that postal services remain an integral part of the increasingly digital world. It is for this reason that the Government is committed to utilising post offices as an effective distribution channel for the ICT products and services to rural areas to facilitate access to information and delivery of services to the citizenry.

Mr Speaker, I wish to state that the Government, under the able leadership of His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Micheal Chilufya Sata, …

Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Mukanga: … is committed to seeing to it that the postal sector plays a significant role in its aspirations to transform the country into an information-centered society where everyone can create, access, utilise and share information and knowledge. This will, in turn, lead to more money in the pockets of …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: … the people of Zambia, greater productivity, greater competitiveness and sustainable economic growth, a pre-condition for poverty reduction, ...

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: … and this Government is committed to achieving this.

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, in order for the postal sector to be able to play a significant role in socio-economic development, there is a need for transformation of the postal sector to leverage the advancements in the ICTs. It is important to have in place modern postal systems with appropriate infrastructure.

Sir, I wish to mention that, in view of the technological advancements, the Zambia Postal Services Corporation (ZAMPOST) has already started repositioning itselfto support the delivery of efficient and reliable public services, starting with the traditional mail delivery to numerous other public services delivered through the use of information and communication technologies, which include ordinary mail, financial services, electronic mail and parcel tracking systems. The service portfolio offered by ZAMPOST, through its 150 outlets, include the following:

(a) traditional postage services;

(b) expedited mail services, which is the courier service of ZAMPOST;

(c) Swift Cash Money Transfer for local transactions. ZAMPOST is the provider of the largest money transfer service in Zambia and is currently servicing the sending and receiving of funds of about 190,000 Zambians monthly;

(d) Western Union Money Transfer service to facilitate international fund remittances;

(e) international payment service for buyers of vehicles to reduce the number of Zambians being swindled through the internet’s fraudulent payments;

(f) salary payments service to civil servants across the country using a pre-paid visa card. In collaboration with the United Bank of Africa (UBA), ZAMPOST will offer salary payment services to civil servants with a specific focus on those in rural areas who travel long distances to access their salaries. It is estimated that about 80,000 civil servants will be serviced under this initiative. The initiative has already been approved by the Bank of Zambia under the National Payment System Act and is now due for implementation; and

(g) agent businesses on behalf of Multi-Choice Zambia for digital satellite television (DSTV) subscriptions, mobile subscriber identity module (SIM) card registration, Road Transport and Safety Agency (RTSA) for road licensing and Professional Life Insurance for motor vehicle licensing.

Sir, in order to bridge the digital divide between urban and rural areas, the Government will continue to put up postal infrastructure countrywide with a view to fulfilling the policy objective of having, at least, one post office in every district in the country to facilitate the provision of the ICTs and postal services in un-served rural areas. Indeed, as already mentioned, post offices provide an effective distribution channel for the ICT products and services to rural areas to facilitate access to information and delivery of services to the citizenry that includes, among others, payments to farmers for their produce on behalf of the Food Reserve Agency (FRA) and provision of other financial services in addition to postal services.

Mr Speaker, under this programme, the Government has completed the construction of a post office at Shan’gombo at a total cost of K1,757,157.21. It is the intention of the Government to have a post office in every district and the procurement process for the construction of a post office in Vubwi will progress once the Budget has been approved. We currently do not have post offices in, at least, twenty-four districts, namely Vubwi, Lufwanyama, Chiengi, Kaputa, Milenge, Mafinga, Sikongo, Luampa, Nalolo, Mwandi, Chembe, Chilubi Island, Chikankanta, Chipili, Chitambo, Luano, Lunga, Mitete, Milenge, Mulobezi, Nkeyema, Nsama, Shiwang’andu and Sioma.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, additionally, there are districts such as Nchelenge and Zambezi that require reconstruction of existing post offices because they have become so dilapidated and are no longer habitable. In Nchelenge, a container is used as a post office because the existing structure cannot be used.

Mr Speaker, I would like to mention that the schedule to prioritise construction of post offices in un-served districts will be mapped out soon, but construction will depend on the availability of funds as the number of post offices that can be constructed, at a time, is limited by the availability of funds.

Mr Speaker, the postal industry is structured around the ability of service providers to physically deliver letters, parcels and packets to individuals and businesses. An address is, therefore, a critical part of the supply chain as it provides a direct link which connects the postal and courier operators to their customers and enables service delivery. It provides a means of identifying a location that enables goods and services to be delivered to a specific location or address and enables physical communication.

Sir, addresses are, therefore, essential for economic and social development as they allow people to be connected to the formal economy thereby providing access to a host of commercial and social products and services. Sadly, the majority of the citizens in Zambia cannot easily be linked by an address because of the lack of a proper physical addressing system.

Mr Speaker, the delivery of efficient and effective social services depends on a good postal code and numbering system. Additionally, a quality postal addressing and postal code system is a cornerstone of e-commerce because goods can be procured electronically and delivered to a physical address. In order to provide for an efficient postal addressing and postal code system, the Government, through the Zambia Information and Communication Technology Authority (ZICTA), in collaboration with other key stakeholders, has embarked on implementing a postal addressing and postal code numbering system project which will result in every commercial and residential property being referenced by a postal code to facilitate delivery of services to a physical address.

Mr Speaker, I would like to mention that there is currently no internationally accepted postal system in place in the country. The commonly mistakenly used 10101 is not acceptable as the postal code for the country as it was a mere proposal by ZAMPOST post six years ago although it was popularised by its usage. The said 10101 is not representative of any particular location and, therefore, cannot amount to a postal code.

Sir, the project is aimed at introducing the postal addressing to the physical street address system which allows delivery to individual homes and business premises that are easily identified by clearly marked house numbers and named streets to complement the Post Office Box, popularly known as the P. O Box, System, which has several limitations. Hon. Members of this august House may recall that on the Copperbelt, mail and parcels would be delivered to a home address.

Sir, the project scope includes the establishment of the national database containing the address details such as street name, house/property number of all residential and commercial properties in the country, a national addressing standard, physical address infrastructure, geographic information system (GIS) and public awareness.

Sir, I would like to mention that although the key objective of this project is to promote the establishment of an efficient door-to-door mail delivery system to all areas of the country, the benefits of the system will go far beyond the postal sector. Indeed, the naming and numbering of all physical property will benefit not only the postal and courier operators, who require address information for delivery of their services, but also enable efficient delivery of other commercial and social services, including utilities, emergency health and fire services to specific physical addresses.

Mr Speaker, the National Addressing and Postal Code System Project will promote the growth of e-commerce thereby leading to the creation of more jobs and facilitation of the creation of an information-centered society in which everyone can create, access, utilise and share information and knowledge, leading to greater productivity and competitiveness and sustainable economic growth. The Postal Addressing and Postal Code System Project implementation commenced in August, 2012, and is being done in phases, starting with the pilot phase which is focused on three distinct neighbourhoods in the capital city, Lusaka, namely Kamwala South, Northmead and Kalingalinga. These areas were purposely chosen because they have several sample types of the representative address types and challenges that are expected to be encountered in the rest of the country.

Sir, the pilot phase also includes selected areas in Livingstone and two villages, namely Mukuni Village in Livingstone and Chieftainess Nkomeshya’s Village in Chongwe. This is intended to provide a broader scope for evaluating the project, prior to a national roll-out. Livingstone was chosen for the good addressing signage to facilitate the successful hosting of the United Nations World Tourism Organisation (UNWTO) Conference.

Mr Speaker, a draft addressing standards has been developed based on the recommendations by the Universal Postal Union (UPU) and the South African Addressing Standards SANS 1883, which has been customised to suit the addressing system in Zambia. The pilot phase is expected to end by December, 2013. The project to cover the entire country is expected to be executed over a period of five years, that is, until 2018.

Interruptions

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, we will continue with this project, knowing that the people will vote us back into power.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: Currently, Sir, the implementation status of the pilot project is as follows:

(a) in Lusaka
 
(i)     in Kalingalinga all the street signs have been mounted. The house plaques have also been mounted on all the structures. Preparations for the launch are underway as Kalingalinga has been chosen as the area where the pilot project shall be launched;

(ii)     in Northmead, all house plaques and steel street signs have been mounted and the work has been completed;

(iii)     in Kamwala South, all house plaques and concrete street signs have been mounted and the work has been completed; and …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga:  …

(b) in Livingstone

15 per cent of street signs have been mounted along the airport and town roads, mostly along Mosi-o-Tunya Road;

(c) in Mukuni Village, some house plaques have been placed on prominent structures along Mukuni Road where the street signs have been deployed; and

(d) in Chieftainess Nkomeshya’s Village, a concept paper has been developed and physical implementation will commence soon.

Mr Speaker, in terms of costs, the new physical address infrastructure, that is, street name signs and house numbers has been installed in each of the pilot areas at a cost in the excess of K6,083,021. In implementing the pilot phase, ZICTA has contracted the following companies:

(a) Quadruple Innovations Zambia Limited for the putting up of concrete street signs and house number plaques;

(b) Shreeji Investment Limited for the provision of steel street signs; and

(c) Satra Infrastructure Management Services Limited for the design, development, testing and commissioning of a national addressing data base (with a GIS module)

Mr Speaker, it is anticipated that the implementation of the project will lead to job creation. It is envisaged that the roll-out strategy will create small and medium-scale enterprises at district and provincial level that will be empowered through contracts to manufacture and erect signs.

Sir, further, it is expected that small and medium-scale enterprises (SMEs) will actively participate at each level of the value-chain in the supply of materials such as steel poles, crushed stones and cement and the fabrication and installation of signs. It is also anticipated that more than 2,253 jobs shall …

Mr Livune: Question.

Mr Mukanga: … be created when the project is rolled out.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: So far, Sir, during the pilot project phase, approximately fifty-four youths have been employed and an additional 350 were engaged to undertake a verification exercise after the draft maps for the various areas were developed. The challenges faced in the pilot phase include, but are not limited to, the following:
 
(a) a lack of updated mapping resources from the local authorities who ideally were the custodians of the spacial geographic information relating to their local areas;

(b) a lack of official site plans and city plans for the actual settlements for the village concept; and

(c) incidents of vandalism of street signs, especially in Kalingalinga, Lusaka.

Ms Lubezhi: Why?

Mr Mukanga: Sir, I wish to conclude by requesting the hon. Members of this august House to support and promote the project and partner with the Government in curbing vandalism.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Musukwa: Kwena uli mwaume, Mukanga.

Mr Mukata: No questions.

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the statement given by the hon. Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication.

Let me give guidance on points of order. If you have a follow-up question, please, do not employ a point of order. I can discern, somehow, when a point of order is employed in order to make a follow-up question. That is unacceptable. Even if you think the response from the right is inadequate or wrong, follow it up with a question. The effect of trying to use a point of order with the intention to make a follow-up question is to unnecessarily draw the Hon. Mr Speaker into the arena. If you want to get the right to be accountable over something, ask them directly. You do not have to interpose through the Hon. Mr Speaker on a point of order.

Points of order, I want to restate, are primarily meant to highlight or bring to my attention a violation of a rule of procedure. That is the fundamental rule. If you want to make a follow up, you are free to do so. I will point you out and give you as much time as you need to get the right to put checks and balances directly.

Mr Livune (Katombola): Mr Speaker, I thank you most sincerely …

Mr Mbulakulima: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Speaker, I want to sincerely thank you for this opportunity you have offered me to raise a point of order which borders on the integrity of this House. I believe that the ministerial statement by the hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting was unsolicited and even if it were solicited, it should have been accurate. The Member of Parliament for Mwandi Constituency, Hon. Dr Kaingu, who, at the same time, is the Vice-President of the Movement for Multi-Party Democracy (MMD), …

Dr Kaingu: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima: … wanted to know what the policy and position of the Government was on the issue of the Foreign Direct Investment (FDI) as regards the media. In his answer, the hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting said that it was not applicable.

Mr Musukwa: What is your point of order?

Mr Mbulakulima: However, Sir, we have been told by the Press Association of Zambia (PAZA) President, Mr Andrew Sakala, that the actual situation concerning media houses is that there is a 25 per cent …

Mr Sikazwe: Who do you believe?

Mr Mbulakulima: … allowance in this industry, and yet yesterday, we were told it was not applicable.

Mr Speaker, the nation is watching and listening. It wants to know the actual position on this very critical matter. Was the hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting or the Government in order to mislead this House that there was no FDI per cent whatsoever applicable in the media industry.

Mr Speaker, I need your serious ruling on this matter.

Hon Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: In order to establish, very firmly, whether or not the hon. Minister misled the House, I will request you to file a question so that the hon. Minister can respond and when he does, in the usual way, you will have more of an opportunity to engage him further on that point. That way, we will firmly determine whether or not the hon. Minister was misleading the House. That is my ruling.

Mr Livune: Mr Speaker, in Kazungula, there is no post office. Therefore, may I find out why Kazungula is missing on the hon. Ministers list of districts to benefit from the construction of post offices.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, the list is not conclusive. We will go round to check areas in need of post offices and where there are none, we will roll out the programme to those areas.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Muchima (Ikeleng’i): Mr Speaker, the postal services offered before and after Independence were very good. Likewise, postal services in developed countries offer valuable services to the people. Today, in Zambia, the postal services are as good as nothing. They depend on letter posting, which has been superseded by telephone and internet connectivity. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister if the Government is considering involving these post offices in the banking system, as has been done in England. I think that is the way post offices should operate. Would that be possible, hon. Minister?

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, the post office system has evolved through the years. Things have changed. If the hon. Member would want the postal services to operate the way they used to before Independence, I think, I am at a loss. What has actually happened is that the post office even offers transport services. We are looking at all options. For instance, one of the issues I mentioned was that civil servants will be paid through the post office system. So, we postal services are evolving and the Government is doing a lot in this regard.

Sir, I thank you.

Mr Antonio (Kaoma Central): Mr Speaker, may I find out when the new post offices will be constructed, especially the one in Nkeyema District.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, I said that we have a roll-out plan which will be availed to the hon. Members to give them an insight into what the Government intends to do. However, with the constraint of funds, we will not construct all of them at once, but roll them out one after the other, starting with Vubwi.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr I. Banda (Lumezi): Mr Speaker, may I find out from the hon. Minister whether he is going to rehabilitate the old post offices which are located far from the main post offices. I have in mind the post office in Chief Mwanya’s area, which is about 150 km away from the main office. If this was done, the people in that area could also enjoy such services.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, our desire is to take postal services to as close to people as possible. Those post offices are the properties of ZAMPOST and they will be rehabilitated.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chisanga (Mkushi South): Mr Speaker, the idea of using post offices countrywide is a welcome move. However, hon. Minster, how ready is the Government to undertake this task since the services offered are already poor?

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, when you look at the way the post office is operating today and compare it to the way it used to operate three years ago, you will notice that there is a big change. The presence of the post office can be felt. The Government is more than ready to ensure that it takes postal services to people, wherever they may be. However, it wants the programme to be economically viable.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mushanga (Bwacha): Mr Speaker, …

Mr Mbulakulima: On a point of order, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Speaker, I would like to thank you, once again, for affording me this opportunity to raise a point of order. As you have guided before, questions of an urgent nature deserve urgent answers because they border on many issues.

Hon. Government Members: Use witchcraft!

Mr Mbulakulima: I will jump on you. I am not your friend.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Do not be bothered about those commentaries.

Hon. Member of Parliament for Chembe, you may continue.

Interruptions

Mr Mwale: Jump on him now!

Laughter

Mr Mbulakulima: Thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Mbulakulima: Last week on Wednesday, I raised a very serious matter concerning the people who died as a result of political violence with regard to the Mansa Central By-elections that bordered on the security and safety of this country. Time is running out and the matter has not been attended to. I raised the issue on Wednesday, last week, and today is yet another Wednesday, but I have not seen the question of an urgent nature I filed appearing on the Order Paper. Therefore, is the Ministry of Home Affairs in order not to treat that matter with the urgency it deserves? I need your serious ruling, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: This question is actually being attended to and, sooner than later, it will be on the order of proceedings. Mind you, when you look at the Standing Order governing the time required for the processing of such a question, you will note that everything is being done according to our rules.

Continue, hon. Member for Bwacha.

Mr Mushanga: Mr Speaker, before the point of order was raised, I was about to say that in Kabwe, we have two post offices, one in town and the other one in Bwacha Constituency, in Bwacha to be specific. Hon. Minister, the programme of naming and numbering of physical properties in Lusaka, namely in Kalingalinga, Kamwala South and Northmead, is going on very well, but I did not hear you mention when the said pilot project will be extended to other provinces and districts, to be specific in Bwacha Constituency in Kabwe.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, I said that the pilot project is being executed in Lusaka and Chief Mukuni’s area. When it has been completed, then, it will be rolled out as a fully-fledged project to be executed during the next five years.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

Mr Mwale (Chipangali): Mr Speaker, the postal code 10101 has been used in this country for a long time and this is the first time we are hearing that it was actually not authorised. Is the hon. Minister not thinking of proposing that we go ahead with this postal code and not change it because many items with addresses printed on them bear this postal code, and to change it would mean reprinting the addresses on products? Is the Government thinking of proposing that we go ahead with the same postal code?

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, the postal code should be a number that bears a country, province, district, area, and street. When it is written down, it should be easy for anybody, wherever they may be, to know exactly where the recipient of the item to be delivered is found. The current number is not good enough. When we roll out this project, we will be told exactly what to do.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mumba (Mambilima): Mr Speaker, Mwense District used to have two post offices, one in Mwense and the other one in Chief Mulundu’s area. The one in Chief Mulundu’s area closed down more than twenty years ago. Does the ministry think of resuscitating this post office so that it can cater for people who are in far-flung areas such as Katuta Kampemba?

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, I answered a similar question and said that the Government will look at how viable this project will be. However, it is our infrastructure and we plan to rehabilitate it.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mutelo (Lukulu West): Mr Speaker, Lukulu Post Office is in a dilapidated state. Are there any immediate efforts to put a new face to it?

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, the immediate project we plan to work on is Vubwi. If the hon. Members pass the Budget, then, we will work on Vubwi.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Speaker, the people of Kabwata are very appreciative of this pilot project and are actively participating in coming up with street names. However, there are areas in Kabwata Constituency such as Chilenje, Libala and Kabwata which already have street names, but do not have street name signs. Would the hon. Minister encourage ZICTA to provide the street name signs for those areas that already have street names rather than waiting for the pilot project to be completed?

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, definitely, what we are going to do eventually is to provide street signs and check the numbering for streets which already have names. As for now, we cannot change the course of our plan by giving street signs and at the same time carrying out a pilot project. Once the pilot project is completed, definitely, we will look at other areas and see which ones are easier to be worked on and then move onto the complicated ones.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nkombo rose.

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member for Mazabuka Central, you have already caught my eye, but I pick on who to speak on a first-come, first-served basis.

Mr Ng’onga (Kaputa): Mr Speaker, vandalism in this country can be likened to a disease which has besieged this country for years. The attitude of people towards Government property has been very bad. Therefore, other than the appeal that the hon. Minister has made to hon. Members of Parliament, who may not even reside in the areas where this pilot project is being undertaken, what other measures has the Government put in place to ensure that vandalism is minimised so that this infrastructure is protected?

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, the Government is trying to ensure that it maximises sensitisation so that people can appreciate what it is trying to do. People need to realise that when they vandalise these properties, they are not vandalising the Government’s property, but their own property because it is tax payers’ money that is used to implement such projects. Therefore, what the Government wants to ensure that citizens understand that the money used in the implementation of these projects belongs to them and that when infrastructure is put up, they need to safeguard it. The more they vandalise the street names or street signs that the Government is putting up, the more likely it will have to redo the projects, rendering the exercise more expensive. So, I want to encourage everyone to get involved and work with the Government in safeguarding this infrastructure.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, the initiative to name streets is very good. However, before I ask my question, I would like to declare interest because I live in Northmead and my house is one of those that were numbered.

Sir, I would like to know the credentials of the people who have been contracted to number houses. I say so because I live at House No. 15 on Lubambe Road, but there is another House No. 15 on the same road. That creates difficulties in locating my house for my visitors and those of the other person with whom our houses share the same number.

Mr Speaker, in Kitwe, there is First Street, Second Street and Third Street. The main reason I have asked about the credentials of these contractors is that when I went to Kitwe, there was a simple typographical error where 1st Street reads as 1th Street and 2nd Street reads as 2th Street. May I know the credentials of these people contracted by the Government to number and name the streets.

Laughter

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, I think, I know a lot about streets on the Copperbelt. I know that the street names and numbers used to be correct, but if somebody changed them, then, I am unaware. However, during the teething problems in the implementation of the project when people see an anomaly, they should bring it forward for the Government to resolve. For example, I personally went round Kalingalinga to check on the roads and discovered that there were four houses numbered 1 on Sikazwe Road. When I inquired why that was the case, I was told it was because the houses were in blocks. I told them that there was a need, therefore, to number the blocks distinctively. That is being addressed and we will ensure that we give you the best.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: Hon. Minister, as you continue responding, remember that there was a question of the credentials of those executing that task.

Mr Bwalya (Lupososhi): Mr Speaker, the naming of streets, as we have witnessed in Lusaka, is very good. Lupososhi has no streets, no electricity and so, there is no internet connectivity. There is an area called Nsombo where a secondary school will soon be opened and the pupils there will need to receive money from their guardians. However, the area has no post office although it had one in the past. Therefore, is the Government considering opening post offices in such areas where boarding secondary schools will be opened so that the pupils can have a post office from where to receive money?

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, that is a good suggestion that we will need to look at and see whether it is workable or not.

Coming to the credentials of the people who are carrying out this work, I believe that they have good qualifications. They are only human and so, they too can make mistakes. We cannot condemn them for making one mistake.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mooya (Moomba): Mr Speaker, what is the estimated cost of this project which will take about five years to be completed?

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order, on my left!

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, initially, we had budgeted K7,500,000 for the pilot project and K32,400,000 for the full project. However, at the rate we are moving, this amount will go up.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Imenda (Luena): Mr Speaker, economic liberalisation and technological advancement have put pressure on the post office because the new players have taken over some of the functions that could have been executed by the post office. For example, at the moment, not everybody posts a letter. You can just scan it and, then, it is sent to the intended recipient. So, because of this, I believe that the post office, now, is almost moribund and obsolete. I would like to know how the Government is going to assist the post office to favourably compete with technological advancements. In view of the fact that this new project will even cost more, how efficiently will the Government execute the delivery of mail to localities?

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, I appreciate that question, but the hon. Member should understand that even the general readership has gone down. We need to encourage the writing of letters. We have a big problem in terms of postage, but I would like to state that when you look at the post office box rentals, the figure has risen. In mid September, last year, the Government raised about K6,921,158 from post box rentals, but in September, this year, it raised K8,399,060. So, the post office is not moribund. Things are happening.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister, who is my friend, is irritating me.

Laughter

Mr Mbewe: Sir, he is my good friend, but he is irritating me. He has, several times, said that in rolling out this project, his ministry will start with Vubwi Constituency. Is it because there is a pending by-election in Vubwi that the Government has decided to start with the area instead of starting with Chadiza where there is a problem as people are operating in a very small and dilapidated building?
 
Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, I would like to remind the hon. Member that we do not create by-elections. They just happen. The Government had already planned to begin this project in Vubwi and funds were allocated to this project in the Yellow Book before the by-election was necessitated. The Government has to get projects done because the people of Zambian need services to be provided. The people, unlike you, are not worried about how many people will vote for them. They want social services delivered to them and this Government is in place to do just that. Whether there are by-elections or not, services should be provided. There are no politics about this.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Speaker, we realise that there are problems with merely numbering streets in townships. May I know what method will be used in registering villages, especially those in the Southern Province where people do not live in compound style. They live far part because the people in these villages are farmers. What is the proposed plan for the Government’s system of postal services to work well?

Mr Mukanga: Sir, this is why we are carrying out pilot projects to see how best we can carry out this project. However, as regards the example that the hon. Member has given of farmlands, it is very easy because the farmlands should have numbers. Therefore, the houses within the farms will be given numbers. I do not see any problem in that regard.

Thank you, Sir.

___________

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

ZAMBIA’S EXTERNAL AND INTERNAL DEBT

167. Mr Mbulakulima (Chembe) asked the Minister of Finance:

(a) what Zambia’s external and internal debt was as of:

(i) 1st September, 2011; and

(ii) 1st September, 2013; and

(b) what steps the Government had taken to ensure that Zambia did not slide into another debt trap.

The Deputy Minister of Finance (Mr Mukata): Mr Speaker, as at 1st September, 2011, Zambia’s external debt was US$1.7 billion while the internal debt was K13.8 billion. As at 1st September, 2013, the country’s external debt was US$3.1 billion and the internal or domestic debt was K17.8 billion.

Mr Speaker, according to our debt management strategy, the Government has undertaken the following measures:

(a) conducts a Debt Sustainability Analysis (DSA) on an annual basis to determine Zambia’s debt-carrying capacity and fiscal space for new borrowing. The DSA provides the framework within which the Government can raise financing for project implementation in line with the debt management objective of ensuring that the Government financing is provided at minimal cost and risk without undermining debt sustainability;

(b) endeavours to apply non-concessional (mainly market-based) funds to high rate return projects, particularly, for infrastructure and energy projects. Investment of debt resources into such sectors will ultimately ensure sustained growth in the economy, which is critical to debt sustainability; and

(c) will continue to source concessional loans from external creditors with a grant element of 35 per cent or better to augment domestic revenues.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Speaker, looking at the gross domestic product (GDP), which does not seem to go beyond 7 per cent, unpredictability of copper prices, which can fall any time, and the widening Budget Deficit that we are recording, when does the Government intend to grow the economy beyond the 7 per cent GDP so as to withstand these developments?

Mr Mukata: Mr Speaker, the resource difference of US$1.6 billion for 2011 and US$3.1 billion for 2013 of external debt, including the Eurobond, have been channeled towards infrastructure development in terms of energy and the road sector. These are the triggers for economic expansion and development. So, this is exactly what is being done to ensure debt sustainability.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mweetwa (Choma Central): Mr Speaker, I would like to take advantage of this question to seek clarification from the hon. Minister of Finance. According to information exiting financial institutions, the rate at which the Government is borrowing from the domestic market is moving upwards from the initial Government assurances of a level borrowing of around 9 per cent to 15 per cent. What does this represent? Is this not a reflection of the deficit and desperation of the economy under the Patriotic Front (PF) Administration?

Mr Mukata: Mr Speaker, the projections that are given in terms of borrowing are subject to change and this is determined by the needs that arise at a given point in time.

Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Mukata: However, in terms of sustainability, I think logic dictates that we borrow more locally than externally. In fact, if you have noticed, our external borrowing level is now at 16 per cent as compared to 15.8 per cent of external borrowing. When you borrow externally, you are much more likely to be susceptible to global shocks, but internal borrowing is more advantageous. Countries such as Japan are at 250 per cent domestic borrowing. Ours is only at 16 per cent of the GDP. So, there is really nothing sinister about this.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Mr Speaker, do we have any money in our reserves which we can use to mitigate some of this indebtedness?

Mr Mukata: Mr Speaker, the reserves are not a tool for debt settling. However, they may be used to balance off payments. The key is to grow the economy, increase the revenue base and be able to amortise for whatever debts we acquire.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Namugala (Mafinga): Mr Speaker, Zambia’s economy is largely dependent on copper mining and in the event of external shocks, especially when the copper prices drop, our debt will become unsustainable. Therefore, what practical steps are being taken to diversify the economy from copper mining?

   Mr Mukata: Mr Speaker, the Government is committed to looking at other critical sectors such as agriculture, tourism and energy as a means of providing a wider base for revenue generation. I think that the proposed Budget itself indicates, for instance, a 7 per cent provision for agriculture, which is just 3 per cent below the Maputo Declaration towards agriculture. In terms of infrastructure development in rural areas, taking energy to rural areas, value-addition activities and cluster development activities are all intended to revamp these sectors and shift attention from the copper industry.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

Prof. Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Mr Speaker, the DSA is cardinal to capping the insatiable appetite for borrowing. What strategic measures is the ministry taking to ensure that there is adherence to the DSA?

Mr Mukata: Mr Speaker, currently, the ministry, in conjunction with other ministries and spending agencies, is working on a framework of ceilings, borrowing and projects. The ministry co-ordinates, monitors and evaluates the capping of expenditure and cutting back on certain capital items. I indicated that, according to our debt management strategy, we conduct debt sustainability analysis and this goes to the ministries and other spending agencies. This information is shared. Therefore, we are really keen on not spending beyond budgets that are set through this analysis.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister how much the estimate of the entire Link Zambia 8,000 km Road Project was at inception, considering that the cost dynamics change from time to time? How long will it take to conclude this Link Zambia 8,000 km Road Project, considering that the Government has to borrow whatever money it is using? Hon. Minister, in your heart of hearts, do you not think that we have already slid into a debt trap?

Mr Mukata: Mr Speaker, I will start with the last part of the question. We have not slid into a debt trap. In fact, under the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and World Bank guidelines, we have a sustainability ceiling in terms of debt to the GDP ratio of 40 per cent …

Mr Nkombo looked away from the hon. Minister.

Mr Mukata: The hon. Member is not listening.

Mr Speaker, it is 40 per cent of the GDP. At the moment, external borrowing is at 14 per cent of the GDP. Therefore, we are within the limit.

Mr Speaker, on the issue of extrapolation of the Link Zambia 8,000 km Road Project, there is a need for the Government to have a strategic plan on how many roads it can work on in a specified period of time and these should be tied to development objectives such as the pro-poor policies it has embarked on by opening up these rural areas. In terms of financing, the Government funds these roads based on the availability of resources. This is why we are saying that there is a need to grow the economy and, at times, we need to look at concessional borrowing to finance these projects. Let me say that the Link Zambia 8,000 km Road Project is not being financed exclusively by borrowed money. Part of the resources is generated locally. I hope I have answered your question, hon. Member.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lufuma (Kalomo West): Mr Speaker, it is well for the Government to borrow domestically as much as it wants. It can even go as far as Japan has by borrowing up to 250 per cent of the GDP. However, there are known effects of borrowing domestically and one of them is that of crowding out the private sector. Therefore, what measures has the Government put in place to ensure that the cost of capital which comes as a result of increased domestic borrowing is kept to the minimum or does not increase exponentially so as to crowd out investment which is necessary for the growth of the economy?

Mr Mukata: Mr Speaker, I appreciate the concept or the issue of crowding the market as a result of borrowing. However, on the flip side, you need to look at Zambia as a capital market which is small. However, we are trying to grow …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

May I have order on the left?

Mr Mukata: … it. In fact, we raised this issue at the recently held World Bank and IMF meetings. We raised it so that the World Bank could look at the possibility, under the International Development Association (IDA) and the International Finance Corporation (IFC), of financing banks such as the Development Bank of Zambia (DBZ) to avail cheap money, if I may use that word, for easy access to locals for borrowing. Therefore, that is part of the measures to mitigate some of these issues. However, the situation makes borrowing inevitable. I believe that if anybody has to borrow, it has to be the Government. This is because the Government is the people, anyway. We borrow on behalf of the people. Really, it is the people who are borrowing and not some institution or the Government. This is not abstract. We are actually borrowing for the people.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Order!

I know that this is a very interesting and serious discourse, however, I will end with the hon. Member for Senga Hill.

Mr Simbao (Senga Hill): Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister not …

Mr Mutelo: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Order!

A point of order is raised.

Mr Mutelo: Mr Speaker, I have been compelled to raise this point of order. I have with me your record for 18th October, 2013.

Mr Mutelo paused.

Mr Speaker: Order!

A record of what?

Mr Mutelo: It is a record of  18th October, …

Hon. Members: A record of what?

Mr Mutelo: Mr Speaker, it is a record of the Hansard, your debates. It reads as follows: 

“Mr Mutelo: Mr Speaker, I thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to raise a point of order. I am sorry for interrupting the hon. Member who is debating well.

“The Zambian Chapter of the African Parliamentarian Network against Corruption, (APNAC) President appealed to the Head of State, His Excellency the President of Zambia, Mr Michael Chilufya Sata, to dissolve his Cabinet because its members are allegedly corrupt, as confessed by themselves.

“Is the hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting in order to say that the APNAC President was wrong to appeal to His Excellency the President, who is allergic to corruption, to dissolve his Cabinet in national interest? I seek your serious ruling, Sir.

“Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

“Mr Kambwili: Umwaiche ala pepa icamba.”

Laughter

Mr Mutelo: Mr Speaker, before you make your ruling, this has gone on record. Was the hon. Minister of Youth and Sport in order, in the first place, to address me as mwaice and, in the second place, to say that alapepa icamba, which I do not smoke?

Laughter

Mr Mutelo: Mr Speaker, alapepa icamba, in my language, translates into uzuba matokwani.

Laughter

Mr Mutelo: Mr Speaker, this means that I smoke dagga. Do I really smoke dagga?

I seek your serious ruling, and this has gone on record.

Mr Speaker: Order!

My ruling is that I need to study the transcript so that I can give an informed ruling. In short, I am reserving my ruling on that matter.

Interruptions

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, to me, the rate at which debt is growing seems as though there may be no control. Is the hon. Minister not worried that even though we are talking about borrowing at 40 per cent of the GDP, at the moment, we may overshoot even before 2016?

Mr Mukata: Mr Speaker, I think it is important to demystify this issue. In September, 2011, the amounts were in the region of UD$1.6 billion. Perhaps, what could account for a leap was the US$750 million Eurobond. So, if you deduct US$750 million from ...

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order, on the left!

Mr Mukata: … the US$3.1 billion, you will already be falling into the region of US$2.4 billion. The gap that we will be talking about is, perhaps, in the region of another US$800 million.

Sir, we have emphasised repeatedly that these amounts are going towards infrastructure development. Repeatedly, I have said that the Government wants to cut back on some of these projects, especially for the sake of debt sustainability, and target projects which will ensure that we create a critical mass that will catalyse economic development. To achieve this, the Government has to borrow. Beyond that, maybe, we would have to depend on manna from God. The Government has to borrow, but in a prudent manner and direct the money towards the sectors which will provide the material conditions to drive and grow the economy so that it can stop borrowing and fund the economy from revenue raised. However, it is unable to do this at the moment.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

KABWE AND KAPIRI-MPOSHI’S TOWNSHIP ROADS CONTRACTOR

168. Mr Musonda (Kapiri Mposhi) asked the Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication:

(a) what the name of the contractor working on the township roads in Kabwe and Kapiri Mposhi was;

(b) when the works would be completed; and

(c) whether the contractor had similar projects elsewhere and, if so, where.

The Deputy Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication (Mr M. H. Malama): Mr Speaker, the contractor working on the township roads in Kabwe and Kapiri Mposhi is Asphalt Road (Zambia) Limited. The works started on 19th October, 2012, and are scheduled to be completed by 5th April, 2014.

Mr Speaker, the contractor has signed a contract with the Ministry of Local Government and Housing to rehabilitate 11 km of urban roads in Kapiri Mposhi. Currently, the contractor has no other road projects in Zambia.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Musonda: Mr Speaker, since Kapiri Mposhi is fast growing, does the Government have any intentions of allocating more money towards the upgrading of township roads?

Mr M. H. Malama: Mr Speaker, the works which are being done in Kapiri Mposhi under the Road Development Agency (RDA) are about 3.7 km and 11 km under the local government. Yes, a lot of traffic passes through Kapiri Mposhi and we, as a Government, have seen what is happening there. In future, we shall consider the hon. Member’s suggestion.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr M. Malama (Chitambo): Mr Speaker, when will the current works that are being carried out in Kapiri Mposhi and Bwacha, in Kabwe, be extended to other constituencies in Central Province?

Mr M. H. Malama: Mr Speaker, this Government is doing a lot of works in almost all the districts in Zambia. What the hon. Member is asking is, in fact, what is obtaining on the ground. There are works being done almost everywhere and I am sure what we are doing is being seen by a lot of people.

Interruptions

Mr M. H. Malama: Yes.

Mr Speaker, some works are going on even in Mkushi.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister mentioned that there are works being done in every district. Can he tell the nation what works his ministry is doing in Monze.

Mr M. H. Malama: Mr Speaker, if the hon. Member got me clearly, I said, ‘almost’. Amongst those districts which we have not moved into yet could be Monze.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chisanga (Mkushi South): Mr Speaker, the works started in October, 2012. Initially, these works were supposed to be completed in October, this year. Now, their completion has been shifted to April, 2014. May I know what has caused the delay.

Mr M. H. Malama: Mr Speaker, I think I have some information concerning the cause of the delay. One of the reasons is that some of the materials such as suitable gravel, according to the initial design, are not suitable for Kabwe. This has contributed to these delays.

I thank you, Sir.

PRISONS’ DECONGESTION

Mr Mutelo (Lukulu West): Mr Speaker, I do not really smoke daga.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, I have reserved my ruling on that matter.

Laughter

169. Mr Mutelo asked the Minister of Home Affairs:

(a) what measures the Government had taken to decongest the highly congested prisons in Zambia; and

(b) why the Immigration Department delayed in deporting illegal immigrants who had served their sentences or paid their fines.

The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Mrs Mwamba): Mr Speaker, the Government has taken the following measures in order to decongest the prisons in Zambia:

(a) Construction of More Prisons:

The Government has completed construction of the Mwembeshi Maximum Prison, Monze Prison, Luwingu Prison, Kalabo Prison, Chitumba Prison in Mumbwa and Livingstone Female Prison;

(b) Expansion of Prison Cells to Create More space:

Mr Speaker, K12 million has been allocated to prison cells expansion in the 2014 Budget; and
 
(c) actively engaged non-custodial measures such as the parole system and presidential amnesty prisons, such as the amnesty that was given to the Barotse Land activists who were arrested in the previous administration and those who were arrested recently.

Mr Speaker, the reasons the Immigration Department delayed in deporting illegal immigrants, who had served their sentences or paid their dues, are the following:

(a) a lack of obvious logistics like funds to purchase air tickets for the prohibited immigrants to travel back to their respective homes, especially those from far away countries;

(b) some prohibited immigrants are arrested without any travel documents. Therefore, it becomes difficult for certain foreign missions to prepare documents for the alleged nationals whilst some other countries do not have any representation in Zambia to issue travel documents to the illegal immigrants;

(c) some prohibited immigrants whose application for refugee status has been rejected do not want to return to their countries of origin.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mutelo: Mr Speaker, …

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Deputy Minister of Home Affairs in order to inform the nation that the Barotse Land activists were released in order to decongest the prisons when, in fact, the Director of Public Prosecution (DPP) entered a nolle prosequis against them? Is she in order to mislead the nation?

Mr Speaker: As the hon. Member responds to the question by the hon. Member for Lukulu West, please, respond to that matter raised in the point of order.

Mr Mutelo: Mr Speaker, the thirty activists were said to be released for the purposes of decongestion. Is the Government not considering releasing the remaining fifty-four activists so that it can further decongest the prisons?

Ms Imenda: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Lungu): Mr Speaker, the thirty who were released recently were released on a nolle prosequis being entered into by the DPP. However, earlier on there were some who were released by Presidential pardon and those are the ones who were referred to by the hon. Deputy Minister.

Sir, as regards those whose cases are already before courts of law, that is not a matter to be dealt with by the ministry, but the DPP.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Hamusonde (Nangoma): Mr Speaker, how many prisoners does the new Mwembeshi prison keep?

Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, it keeps about 700.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Ms Namugala: Mr Speaker, what is the total capacity of our prisons and what is the gap? Further, what is the Government doing to ensure that the prisons are decongested?

Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, as I speak, our prison facilities are holding about 16,000 inmates, but that far exceeds the capacity by 100 per cent.

Mr Speaker: What measures are being taken?

Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, the measures being taken were outlined by the hon. Deputy Minister in her answer to the principal question.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mufalali (Senanga): Mr Speaker, we visited the central prison and learnt that some prisoners are from other countries and are being held by the Zambian Government on political ground, but they would like to leave Zambia and seek asylum elsewhere. Therefore, why is the ministry taking long in responding to some of these cases?

Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, when a person has been held as a prohibited immigrant and the country they purport to come from does not want to take them or they do not want to go back that country, then, the challenge is on the international community to afford that person asylum in a third country. Very few countries are coming forward to offer these people domicile.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, …

Mr Mulusa: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mulusa: Mr Speaker, I thank you for according me to raise a point of order and I apologise to my brother, the hon. Member of Parliament for Monze Central.

Sir, I rise on a very important point of order that borders on the sustainability of our financial sector.

Mr Speaker, in today’s edition of the Daily Nation, it has been reported that the publication last month, sent a press query to the Governor of the Bank of Zambia, Mr Michael Gondwe, on a number of issues concerning the compliance of Finance Bank with the Bank of Zambia Act, among other things, in terms of shareholders since it was given back to its owner, Dr. Rajan Mahtani.

Sir, the report said that the query also touched on reports that following interventions of a banker, Government institutions and parastatals had been forced to withdraw their accounts from Access Bank. The Daily Nation wanted to know, among other things, if it was true that Finance Bank Chairperson, Dr Rajan Mahtani, was still holding 56 per cent shares in the bank.

Mr Speaker, the last issue is that the newspaper wanted to know if it was true that the Bank of Zambia had paid Dr Mahtani K120 billion for loss of business as compensation without litigation.

Sir, two issues are at play here. The first one is that the refusal of the Bank of Zambia to answer the query denies the public access to the information concerning the way their money is being used. The second issue is that there is a threat to the banking sector in Zambia if, firstly, we are going to pay K120 billion without litigation and, secondly, a banker is going to force the closure of another bank by asking public institutions to withdraw funds.

Sir, is the hon. Minister of Finance in order to sit there without reassuring the nation that the financial sector is not under threat and that no money amounting to K120 billion was paid to Dr Mahtani, who, as the report says, did not inform the other shareholders? I seek your serious ruling so that the nation can be at peace, knowing that Access Bank will not be closed suddenly.

Mr Speaker: My ruling, as expected, is short. File a question.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs has confirmed that the prison population is 100 per cent more than what was initially intended. Is the hon. Minister, therefore, in support of the Road Transport and Safety Agency’s (RTSA) decision to imprison road traffic offenders over weekends in congested prisons, taking into account that, according to the reports we have just seen in today’s papers, the acquired immuno-deficiency syndrome/human immuno-deficiency virus  (AIDS/HIV) rate in prisons is higher than the national average?

Sir, what is the Government’s position over that matter?

Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Speaker, I am aware that there is a Private Members Motion awaiting debate before us, but I would like to state that the weekend imprisonment concept is a noble idea which we would like to experiment. If it works and makes us comfortable, we will support it and if it does not, I am sure your thoughts on the matter will be invited so that we can chart the way forward or we will abandon it as we go on. I believe that there is nothing which is static. Life and society are dynamic.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, going by the last …

Prof. Lungwangwa: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Prof. Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, I apologise to Hon. Nkombo for disturbing his flow of thought. The hon. Minister of Home Affairs has made reference to experimentation. Is he in order to experiment on human life to the extent of even violating people’s human rights by putting their health at risk? Is the ministry in order to carry out experiments on people’s lives? I seek your serious ruling.

Mr Speaker: As the hon. Minister responds to the question by the hon. Member for Mazabuka Central, may he clarify that point.

 The hon. Member may continue.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, as a matter of fact, I was going to say that there is a need for caution to be taken in the implementation of this law as the hon. Minister and I may find ourselves in prison over the weekend.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: However, Sir, my substantive question is that …

Mr Speaker: The Hon. Mr Speaker is not looking forward to that outcome.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, we have a lot of prohibited immigrants in these prisons. Some of them have served sentences and for others, their repatriation back to their homes is pending. Our last visit to Lusaka Central Prison revealed that there was not enough money to repatriate people who were going even as near as Zimbabwe. I want to find out from the hon. Minister whether the actual position is that there is no money for repatriation, because I think it would be a good measure to decongest prisons, at least, by releasing those who have served their terms.

Mr Speaker: The hon. Minister may also look into the issue that has been raised by the hon. Member for Nalikwanda.

Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, probably, I will start with the issue raised by the hon. Member of Parliament for Nalikwanda. Currently, there is a law in place which provides for weekend imprisonment only that it has not been invoked in the past. RTSA has simply given a new lease of life to this law so that it is implemented. If we find this law unhelpful, obviously, we will ask for its repeal or find a better way of improving it. That is not to say that we are experimenting.

Mr Speaker, allow me, at this point, to say that laws are dynamic. That is why we are here to look at laws which are moribund, archaic and not serving our interest. We will upgrade those laws which help us advance the cause of our people and the human rights we talk about so much and make them in tune with the current trend.

Sir, as for the question on money for repatriation by the hon. Member for Mazabuka Central, in most cases, when groups of eminent citizens such as hon. Members of Parliament and other human rights activists visit prisoners, the officials there tend to tell lies and misrepresent facts. However, as a ministry, we ensure that we repatriate these people to neighbouring countries when funds are available. As a ministry, we even have a bus for that purpose. We take them in loads to Zimbabwe and the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC). However, in instances where people come from far-flung places and we do not have resources to repatriate them, we wait or call upon the respective embassies representing the countries from which these people come to assist us. If the embassies disclaim these people as non-citizens, then, we get into a dilemma and that is where we look for third countries. I can assure you that our ministry is keen to ensure that we do not congest our prisons by keeping people who have served their sentences unless there is a good reason for doing so.

I thank you, Sir.

__________

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the
 Chair]

VOTE 17 – Ministry of Foreign Affairs – (K408,936,856).

The Minister of Foreign Affairs (Mr Simuusa): Mr Chairperson, may I begin by expressing my sincere gratitude to His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Michael Chilufya Sata, and the people of Zambia for honouring me with this opportunity to head the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and to now present the Estimates of Expenditure for 2014.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simuusa: Mr Chairperson, we shall ensure effective utilisation of the budgetary allocation of K408,936,856 to implement our programmes and activities for the coming year. This amount is for both operations and personal emoluments for headquarters and thirty-nine missions abroad. With regard to my ministry’s mission and mandate to effectively manage the international affairs of this country and to help in driving economic development, my ministry will continue to focus on the principles of effectively promoting and protecting Zambia’s interests at home and abroad in order to contribute to sustainable economic development and promote proactive diplomacy in order to contribute to national prosperity.

Mr Chairperson, my ministry has since concluded the revision of Zambia’s Foreign Policy which will be tabled to Cabinet before the end of the year and is scheduled to be launched early next year. The policy is premised on the need to promote and maintain the country’s international relations and enhance economic diplomacy. Zambia’s foreign policy, therefore, aims at safeguarding the country’s sovereignty, territorial integrity, socio-economic development and other national interests. It will also outline the strategy being employed in engaging, mobilising and exploiting a very valuable resource which has great potential and this is the Zambians living in the Diaspora.

Mr Chairperson, regarding the need to enhance and expand bilateral and multi-lateral relations and making Zambia’s Foreign Policy more robust as the country interacts with the international community, my ministry will facilitate the increase of Zambia’s participation in strategic regions. In this regard, the ministry is considering opening missions abroad in the United Arab Emirates, Finland, Cuba and Israel in the next fiscal year.

Mr Chairperson, in carrying out its mandate of promoting, maintaining and strengthening Zambia’s bilateral relations with other countries, in the past financial year, my ministry facilitated and co-ordinated visits of foreign dignitaries to Zambia. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs, being the county’s interface with the outside world, has continued to facilitate the country’s interaction with the international community and, therefore, continues to play an active role at international fora.

Mr Chairperson, this is made possible through its facilitation of Zambia’s participation in conferences and meetings such as the Nordic Africa Forum in Finland from which Zambia’s participation in the forum is expected to enhance co-operation with Nordic countries in formal multi-lateral bodies which, in the long run, will bear social economic benefits for the country.

Mr Chairperson, during the past financial year, my ministry also facilitated and co-ordinated the Joint Permanent Commissions of Co-operations (JPCs) with various republics, for example, …

The Chairperson: Order, on my right!

Continue, hon. Minister.

Mr Simuusa: … Mozambique and Mauritius, with a view to promoting sustainable national and regional development. Through these JPCs, opportunities were created for the various Zambian business communities to improve cross-border movements of goods and people. Opportunities were also created for technical co-operation in various sectors of the economy such as trade, transport and communication and information technology. Due to limited resources, the ministry plans to hold three JPCs at a cost of K393,944 in the coming fiscal year.

Mr Chairperson, in its continued effort to play an active role in enhancing diplomatic ties with various countries, my ministry facilitated State working visits to the People’s Republic of China by His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia in April, this year. During this visit, a number of trade investment agreements were signed. His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia also travelled to Japan to attend the Fifth Turkey International Conference on African Development (TICAD 5), that is, for Asia and South Korea where he had bilateral consultations with the presidents of the two respective countries. The ministry also facilitated the attendance of His Excellency the President at the Twentieth Ordinary Session of the African Union (AU) in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia, as well as his attendance at the Sixty-Seventh Session of the United Nations General Assembly (UNGA) in New York in the United States of America.

Mr Chairperson, in addition to this, my ministry equally facilitated the attendance of His Honour the Vice-President to the Southern Africa Development Community (SADC) Extraordinary Summit in Maputo in Mozambique, the Thirty-Third Summit of the Heads of State and Governments of SADC countries in Lilongwe, Malawi, and the inauguration ceremony of His Excellency the President of Zimbabwe, Mr Robert Mugabe. The above-stated visits played a significant role in bringing the much-needed Foreign Direct Investment (FDI) into the country for socio-economic development of the country and raising Zambia’s visibility in the world.

Mr Chairperson, my ministry shall continue to endeavour to strengthen Zambia’s membership to international and regional consultations such as the United Nations (UN), AU, Common Market for Eastern and Southern Africa (COMESA), International Conference on the Great Lakes Region and SADC. Among some of the benefits of belonging to these international and regional organisations are regional projects, trade facilitation, investment promotion and employment for our nationals to mention, but a few.

Mr Chairperson, during the 2013 Fiscal Year, the Zambia Mine Action Centre (ZMAC), a department in my ministry, mandated to carry out the ministry’s role in the management, co-ordination and facilitation of all mine action activities in co-operation with the international community and other stakeholders undertook various activities. These included sensitisation programmes to educate the people of Zambia on the dangers on land mines and explosive remnants of war (ERW). In addition to this, with the assistance of the United Nations Development Programme (UNDP) and support from the Curriculum Development Centre (CDC), the ministry finalised the Teacher’s Handbook and Learner’s Guide on the Land Mines and the ERW. That is envisioned as a tool to help people in affected areas to widely and better understand the dangers of land mines and the ERW.

Mr Chairperson, regarding the above and in an effort to ensure effective communication, my ministry …

The Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours to 1630 hours.

[THE CHAIRPERSON in the
 Chair]

Mr Simuusa: Mr Speaker, before business was suspended, I was mentioning the sensitisation programmes formulated to educate the people of Zambia on the dangers of land mines and the ERW. In addition to this, I mentioned that, with the assistance of the UNDP and support from the CDC, the ministry finalised the Teacher’s Handbook and Learner’s Guide on Land Mines and the ERW that is envisioned as a tool to help people in affected areas to widely and better understand the dangers of land mines and the ERW.

Mr Chairperson, regarding the above, and in an effort to ensure effective communication, my ministry will work on the translation of these guides into the seven main local languages for distribution across the country.

Mr Chairperson, during the last fiscal year, Zambia signed the Arms Trade Treaty (ATT) and acceded to the convention on Certain Conventional Weapons (CCW). Zambia, through my ministry, hosted the Fourth Meeting of State Parties to the Convention on the Cluster Munitions (4 MSPCCM) and this was in Lusaka in September, this year. The meeting was officially opened by His Excellency the President, Mr Micheal Chilufya Sata, and was attended by over 500 delegates from State parties, signatory countries, observer countries, civil society organisations and the Zambian general public. During the meeting, Zambia was elected President of the 4th MSPCCM for the period of one year. This means Zambia will spearhead the campaign against the production, stock piling and use of cluster munitions and, through my ministry, Zambia aims at using her presidency to encourage non-member nations, especially African countries, to join the Convention on Cluster Munitions.

Mr Chairperson, as a Government, we are committed to domesticating the Convention on Cluster Munitions and my ministry shall endeavour to have the Bill tabled before this august House in due course.

Mr Chairperson, in the coming financial year, my ministry envisages undertaking the following activities:

(a) participate in the United Nations General Assembly, SADC, COMESA, AU, New Partnership for Africa’s Development (NEPAD) and African Growth and Opportunity Act (AGOA) technical meetings;

(b) host and participate in the joint-permanent commissions of co-operation that Zambia has with various countries;

(c) hold the Heads of Missions Conference in an effort to update Zambia’s envoys on Government policies and other social and economic issues affecting the country;

(d) facilitate State and official visits to selected countries abroad; and

(e) carry out renovations to dilapidated Government properties at selected missions abroad of which works have since commenced with Lubumbashi, in the DRC, Brussels in Belgium, Berlin in Germany and Addis Ababa in Ethiopia.

Mr Chairperson, in conclusion, I wish to underline that my ministry is unique by nature of its mandate in that a large part of its operations are of an international nature involving international foreign exchange transactions and transfers which are susceptible to fluctuations. Turbulences of the international money markets have had some adverse impact on the operations of the ministry and missions abroad. This has affected budget lines and, hence, calls for an increase in allocation to my ministerial budget.

Mr Chairperson, I now would like to take this privilege to thank this august House and other ministries and institutions for the invaluable support they have rendered my ministry in implementing Zambia’s Foreign Policy in the last financial year. In this regard, I appeal for the continued support to my ministry’s estimates of revenue and expenditure for the coming year so that it accomplishes its goals and objectives in order to contribute to national development.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulusa (Solwezi Central): Mr Chairperson, in my previous debates, I have supported the budget allocations to the departments that we have considered so far.

Sir, if there is one ministry that must be shut down because it is not adding value to Zambia’s cause, it is this one.

Laughter

Mr Mulusa: Sir, I say so because this ministry is a sanctuary for relatives of the ruling elite.  

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ng’onga: Question!

Mr Mulusa: Sir, everyday, we see appointments of people who are linked to the leadership.

Mr Mbewe: Aah!

Mr Mulusa: Sir, we have a school of diplomacy here, and yet we do not even know when these people who are appointed go for training before taking up these positions. Worse still, some of them are appointed to open up new embassies when they are in need of an educational background, experience and relevant exposure. We do not see them acquiring on of this, and yet the hon. Minister stands up to read his policy statement and assure this nation that his ministry has got strategic relevance to Zambia. The strategic relevance can only be underwritten if the embassies are manned by qualified people.

Sir, the Patriotic Front (PF) was brought into power by the Zambian people because they wanted new dynamics and a breath of fresh air. I expected the PF to give an opportunity to all Zambians to access the careers that they wished to undertake. These posts should have been advertised. Students from our tertiary institutions should have been given an opportunity to apply for diplomatic positions. These students could have been taken for training and been posted without bias. What we are seeing are your twenty-three-year old children becoming deputy ambassadors. What is that? In the meantime, we are being told that this ministry is being managed strategically in order to advance the cause of Zambia.

Mr Mbulakulima: Shame!

Mr Mulusa: Come on; do not fool the people of Solwezi Central.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulusa: Do not fool the people of Solwezi Central.

This is extremely and seriously unacceptable. I want you to take my debate very seriously.

The Chairperson: Order!

Can you address them through the Chair?

Mr Mulusa: Mr Chairperson, I would like the hon. Minister to take the interests of Zambians seriously.

Sir, there are terrible stories that are coming from these missions abroad. There is one ambassador who was invited to a gathering and after giving her speech, she told the audience that her mother also wanted to say something.  

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Mulusa: The mother took to the stage and said “Bane muleikala bwino, ififine, emutende, ekwikala bwino, ekwafwana.”

Laughter

Mr Mulusa: Can you imagine that?

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

What does that mean?

Mr Mulusa: Sir, the mother said a gathering such as that was very important and that was the way they should be working together as brothers and sisters.

Mr Mbewe: What language is that?

Mr Mulusa: That is Bemba.

Mr Mbewe: Ooh?

Mr Mulusa: It is shocking.

Mr Chairperson, I must thank this Parliament for according me the privilege to be one of the  Members who travels extensively to represent it, the Pan-African Parliament (PAP) and the AU.

Hon. Government Members: Corruption!

Mr Mulusa: Sir, everywhere I go, I pick up funny stories about the performance of staff in our embassies.

If you recall, Sir, Zambia actually trained people from other countries in the sub-region in diplomacy. With the coming of the PF Government, we are at the bottom and are a laughing stock.

Mr Mbewe: Aah! Sure?

Mr Mulusa: Mr Chairperson, people are suffering because we do not have enough medicines in our hospitals. Therefore, we need to save this money. Let us propose to close this ministry because we do not need it. At least, the PF has demonstrated that we do not need it because it is not using the ministry strategically. What can a twenty-two or twenty-three-year old child, who has never worked anywhere, do when appointed to an important position of deputy ambassador in a strategic trading partner? It is shocking. Can we be serious, for once, if this ministry cannot be closed.

Sir, there are a lot of career diplomats that were inherited by the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) from the United National Independence Party (UNIP). I am talking about career diplomats that are holding not less than two Master’s Degrees in Diplomacy and International Trade.

Sir, most of them have been recalled and are driving around in the streets of Lusaka because they have no desk at the ministry. They were recalled and replaced by cadres who are not even trained. As a Government, do us a favour. If you do not want to close your ministry, can you recall all those who were not trained, but were posted to, at least, be given refresher courses in order for them to do the barest minimum that will give us benefit.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! {mospagebreak}

Mr Mulusa: Let me tell you.

Sir, let me tell them. This world is now global. We no longer live in isolated countries, but a global village. The Bembas say “Ubwali bwambusa bulya uchenjele,” meaning when globalised, in the sharing of the global wealth, only the clever ones will pick up something to take back where they come from.

Sir, what benefit is the country getting from the redundant people who have been sent abroad just because they are PF cadres? No clinic or school has been built in my constituency and we are wasting money on this ministry. It is unacceptable. The criterion for being appointed or retained in this ministry is one’s surname.

Mr Livune interjected.

Mr Mbulakulima: Shame!

Mr Mulusa: Mr Chairperson, I can actually give examples, but that will border on discussing innocent people who are not here to defend themselves. We had highly qualified Press Attachés from the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC) in Washington and Pretoria, South Africa, and another one previously from The Times of Zambia newspaper in Brussels. However, when this Government came into power, out of those three, the South African Press Attaché was recalled. She is Lunda.

Mr Livune: Oh!

Mr Mulusa: Mr Chairperson, the Press Attaché from Brussels was recalled. He is from the Eastern Province. The Press Attaché from Washington has been retained. He is Bemba.

Mr Muntanga: Oh, Shame!

Mr Mulusa: What is the Government telling me? The Zambian people gave it power …

Mr Mbewe: Nizoona izo?

Mr Mulusa: … and, thus, in appreciation of that gesture, it should be genuine and fair. Let the Government give hope to our children who are completing their tertiary and secondary school education. Advertise and let them know …

Mr Ng’onga: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Ng’onga: Mr Chairperson, thank you for giving me this opportunity to rise on a very serious point of order.

Mr Livune: Question.

Mr Ng’onga: Is the hon. Member for Solwezi Central in order not to give facts on almost all the information that he is giving …

Interruptions

Mr N’gonga: … and also to tread on areas of tribalism which is very destructive. Mr Chairperson, I need you serious ruling.

Interruptions.

The Chairperson: Order!

 The hon. Minister is going to say something, I believe, when he winds up debate.

Can you continue, hon. Member for Solwezi Central.

Mr Mulusa: Mr Chairperson, my advice to the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs is to humbly identify the importance of each foreign mission to the interest of Zambia in the globalised world and draw up a performance agreement. For example, when talking about the mission in South Africa, the performance agreement would be based on how that mission can contribute towards reducing the trade imbalance where, at the moment, trade is standing at eight to one. When Zambia sells anything worth one dollar, South Africa sells to us at worth eight dollars. Therefore, how can that mission assist us to change that scenario? From that, let us identify what we are trading with South Africa? What are the dynamics at play in terms of our relationship with South Africa?

Mr Chairperson, let the ministry identify the key qualifications which individuals who are sent there should possess. We do not want a situation in which positions are being fought for. Some people are sent to foreign missions and asked to return two months later only for a relative to be sent there. It is embarrassing and annoying. We are paying taxes, and yet we are seeing our people suffering and money not being allocated to the right places.

Mr Chairperson, I wish to end my debate by repeating my opening statement that if there is one ministry that we should close, for now, because the PF has failed to identify its relevance, it is …

Mrs Kawandami: Question, question!

Laughter

Mr Mulusa: … the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. With those few words, I beg not to support the allocation to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. It is a waste of public funds.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Imenda (Luena): Mr Chairperson, first of all, I would like to comment on the issue of opening an embassy or resuming diplomatic relations with Israel.

 Mr Chairperson, I would like to give a bit of history. Once upon a time, we had diplomatic relations with Israel and it did some very good work in Kafulafuta and Kafubu. The Israelis had some nice projects through which they taught our people certain farming methods. Despite Israel being in a desert, in terms of agriculture, it is exporting first class fruits, such as oranges, to the rest of the world. Maybe, the Israeli Embassy was going to roll out its agriculture project to other parts of Zambia, however, Sir, out of blind loyalty, we, as a country, decided to be in solidarity with the Arab world and broke diplomatic relations with Israel.

Mr Chairperson, when the Arab world turned round and decided to use the oil weapon, Zambia was not spared. What did we benefit from that? We gave up an all-weather friend to go to the other side which was not helpful to us. With this bit of history, I would like to applaud the intention to resume diplomatic relations with Israel.

The Chairperson: Order, on my right!

Ms Imenda: Mr Chairperson, I would like also to say something on the issue of people who are sent into the Foreign Service from our country. These people should be honest. We have lost assets in some of these diplomatic missions abroad because of dishonest people. I know that in London, for example, we had a lot of properties but, somewhere, somehow, during the Third Republic, from I do not know which point exactly, maybe, starting from the late eighties, we do not know what happened. I know that we have lost some of the properties because they got registered under personal names of some people in this country …

Mr Muntanga: Which ones?

Ms Imenda: … because there was dishonesty. During the time when there was confusion about housing with regards to sitting tenants and so on and so forth, some unscrupulous and dishonest people took advantage and changed the ownership of properties into their personal names. They had some people at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs who sourced, on their behalf, documents which listed the properties the missions owned. Thus, we have lost some of those properties.

Mr Speaker, I was a young student in London, then, but I know we had a lot of properties there although some of them have gone unaccounted for because of the dishonest people who are sent into Diplomatic Service.

Sir, we should send, in this Diplomatic Service, …

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, coming from the Ministry of Home Affairs where we appreciate whistleblowers, is the hon. Member debating, now, in order to tell this House that she knows these suspected thieves who have looted public property and not to report to the relevant authorities, who are in the House? Is she in order to keep that information to herself? I need your serious ruling.

The Chairperson: Well, she is talking about what happened in the eighties, if I got her correctly. If she reports now, I do not know if it will help to go back thirty years.

Can the hon. Member continue.

Interruptions

Ms Imenda: Mr Chairperson, I am being assisted here that my mouth is my private property.

Laughter

Ms Imenda: Mr Chairperson, I would like to say that we should also send into this Foreign Service hardworking people. I am still on our assets in these foreign missions. As a Member of the Public Accounts Committee, when we travel to some of these places, certain things are not right. Some of our properties, like in Zimbabwe, are very dilapidated. I hope that the ministry can rehabilitate these properties from the allocation it has been given ...

Mr Chisanga: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

That will be the last one because I will not allow any more points of order.

You can raise your point of order.

Mr Chisanga: Mr Chairperson, I rise on a very serious point of order. Is the hon. Minister of Home Affairs in order to threaten hon. Members of Parliament when we have immunity? Is he in order to scare the hon. Member that he is from Ministry of Home Affairs and, therefore, she should disclose the information she has withheld?

The Chairperson: He merely stated that he is from the Ministry of Home Affairs and he did not scare anybody.

Laughter

The Chairperson: Can the hon. Member continue.

Ms Imenda: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Sir, still on the issue of our assets abroad, for example, in Zimbabwe, we have a multi-story office block, but the money being realised from its rentals …

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order, on my left!

Ms Imenda: … is not commensurate with its value and the market value. We were told that hiking the rentals had to be allowed by the Government. However, I am aware of the fact that in this country, some diplomatic missions which have got properties rent them out at market value. Why can we not do the same? The Ministry of Home Affairs should look into this very seriously because the money raised could help in rehabilitating these properties.

The Chairperson: Is it the Ministry of Home Affairs or Foreign Affairs?

Ms Imenda: Sorry, Mr Chairperson, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs should seriously look into this issue.

Mr Chairperson, still on the issue of honest and hardworking people, I wish to say that the Front for Liberation of Mozambique (FRELIMO) had given Zambia a beautiful multi-storey building in Maputo because of providing sanctuary during its liberation struggle. FRELIMO also gave Tanzania a building because it also played a similar role of being a frontline state. Tanzania, through its hardworking diplomats, claimed its building, which is still in its possession. With us, we do not know what the diplomats were in that country for. They thought they were on holiday and did not bother to follow it up. As a result, we have lost that building. We have tried, as a country, to get the building and even during his term in office, His Excellency the President, Mr Rupiah Banda, tried to engage the Mozambiquan President, but it was too late. We have lost that one.

So, Mr Chairperson, I would like the Ministry of Foreign Affairs to be very serious about some of these issues.

With these few words, I wish to support the Vote.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Belemu (Mbabala): Mr Chairperson, thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to debate this particular Vote.

Sir, this Vote is important for the welfare of this country, notwithstanding what Hon. Mulusa has said. I think what has led Hon. Mulusa and others, like me, to think the way we do is the nature in which this particular business of international diplomacy is being undertaken by the PF Government.

As a citizen observing the way this ministry works and conducts our international relations and diplomacy, one tends to think that it is being run like a secret society.

Mr Muntanga: Eeh!

Mr Belemu: Sir, this is because there are so many issues that are not very clear domestically. We have been told that we have an International Relations Policy and a Diplomatic Policy and this and that policy, but there are a lot of contradictions in terms of what the PF is doing vis-à-vis the written policy. A number of things pertaining to our international relations and the way we conduct the business of diplomacy in this country are not clear. As citizens, we get surprised to hear things which we should ordinarily have been aware of when the Head of State makes a pronouncement during visits to particular missions.

Mr Chairperson, some of the questions have not been answered. For example, immediately the PF came into power, it sent the First Republican President to apologise to Angola. To date, no one knows the reasons Dr Kaunda was sent to apologise and the outcome of that apology.

Mr Muntanga: Don’t Kubeba!

Mr Belemu: Now, Sir, if international relations are run like this, it makes people feel like they are of no value to this country. It is easier for us to know, for example, where Zimbabwe stands on particular international issues as compared to Zambia. We know where the United States of America (USA) and United Kingdom (UK) stand. However, in our case, it is like a secret society. Only when a pronouncement is made and, at times, very casually, at a mission abroad do we know where Zambia stands on a particular issue. I think we need to change.

Mr Mwaliteta: Why do you want to know?

Mr Belemu: Mr Chairperson, it is strange to hear people in the Executive ask questions like, “Why do you want to know?”

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwaliteta: Question!

Mr Belemu: That even makes us question more on …

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

Mr Belemu: … whether they know what they are doing in the Government or not.

Mr Muntanga: Hear, hear! Look at them, mwana! Look at them!

Mr Belemu: Mr Chairperson, this is our country …

Mr Muntanga: Yes!

Mr Belemu: … and Zambia’s relations with the international community are relationships between us, as Zambians, and not the PF, and the international community.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Belemu: Mr Chairperson, it is important that people are made aware of where we stand on important international issues. For example, when people go to international fora, we just see them arguing somewhere about not believing in the International Court of Justice anymore, but locally, no such debate has been opened. We would like to know.

Sir, I am saying that there are so many contradictions between what the Government says is policy and what it is doing. This also extends to the PF, which is the party that is in the Government. Some of the party’s friends have highly questionable international repute, but it has chosen them to be its closest friends.

Mr Muntanga: Oh, oh!

Mr Belemu: Now, Sir, they have reached a stage where they host summits here in Zambia and some people are elected chairpersons of whatever political parties, …

Laughter

Mr Belemu: … and yet they say they want to foster the international policy. What business are we doing with those kinds of governments?

Hon. Opposition Members: Tell them!

Mr Belemu: It is very strange! No wonder Hon. Mulusa says this ministry must be closed.

Mr Muntanga: Hear, hear!

Mr Belemu: If, on one hand, the Government is going to associate itself with strange regimes or governments and say it believes our diplomacy must be of good neighbourliness and good this and that, but on the other hand, what it is doing in practical terms is the opposite, that causes us to worry.

Mr Mufalali: Balya ama dictators!

Mr Belemu: Sir, my second comment on this ministry is that as much as we appreciate the opening up of certain missions, we also seem to have landed into a domestic problem because, at the same time, districts are being created as well.

Hon. Opposition Members: Shame! Shame!

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: No vision!

Laughter

Mr Belemu: Mr Chairperson, when you look at the value of some of these missions, you begin to think it is simply a way of creating jobs for the Government’s cadres to go on missions abroad, as the case is for District Commissioners.

Mr Muntanga: Hear, hear!

Mr Belemu: Sir, what is the value of these missions? By the way, why does the Government think that opening missions is a solution to Zambia’s international relations problems? It is what is happening here which is more of a problem than not opening missions. The Government can open missions abroad, but as long as it continues having people beaten up, arrested at will and breaching so many laws in this country, it will not help to build the image of this country. The panacea is not opening missions abroad, but changing the conduct of the party that is in the Government vis-à-vis our international relations and the image we want to portray out there.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Belemu: There is a lot that we, as a country, need to do if we want to portray the image that the hon. Minister is talking about. What is working against building our image and international relations is the behavior of the PF Government.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Belemu: Sir, building an image on the international fora is not about opening missions, but not being brutal dictators back home. We need to adjust the way we handle things here. The Government may try to portray a good picture out there, but its image on the international fora will be a mirror reflection of how it acts domestically.

Mr Chairperson, my other concern is that it is not very clear what the PF wants to achieve in as far as international relations are concerned. This is with regard to the unnecessarily high labour turnover in the ministry, particularly at higher levels such as Heads of Missions and that of hon. Minister. Is the PF still experimenting? Has it completed carrying out its experiments or it intends to continue?

Mr Muntanga: It is fatigued.

Mr Belemu: Sir, you cannot be sending people into Foreign Service and recalling them anyhow. These days, we meet so many people who were only posted last year, but have been recalled. Even our former vice-president in the United Party for National Development (UPND), a very good man, was sent on foreign mission, but was recalled in no time.

Hon. UPND Members: Shame!

Mr Muntanga: Bakamunyonyola muntu.

Mr Belemu: Sir, there are other people who have been posted officially, and yet they are still in Lusaka, years after being posted. I can give examples of those who have been posted, but have not taken up their diplomatic positions.

Mr Muntanga: What about Mr Hapunda, mwana?

Mr Belemu: Mr Chairperson, what are they still doing on the streets of Lusaka if they were posted as diplomats? It gives an indication that, probably, it is a fact that the PF does not know what it wants to achieve. If you know what you want to achieve, you will know the kind of manpower and the type of workforce capacity that you need. You will not just pick people anyhow on account of one small thing, which is tribe.

Mr Muntanga: Where is Mr Hapunda, mwana? Tell the nation.

Mr Belemu: So, the PF needs to convince the Zambian people a bit more before we can safely agree that we are making headway.

Sir, I have very serious concerns as regards this ministry and they go as far as the human resource that you find in these missions. I get surprised when I go to some of these missions and meet people I knew from the streets of Lusaka. We know their characters. It is no wonder that, in some of the missions, you find a lot of quarrels as people fight each other over whose parent is more superior in the PF and who is more senior; is it the son or daughter of the diplomat and so on and so forth?

Hon. UPND Members: Shame!

Mr Belemu: That is not how to run this business.

Mr Muntanga: Very soon, they will rise on a point of order.

Mr Belemu: Mr Chairperson, …

Ms Kapata: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Ms Kapata: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Member on the Floor, who is waffling in order, …

Hon. UPND Members: Question!

The Chairperson: Order!

Please, hon. Member, withdraw the word ‘waffling’ and replace it with an appropriate one.

Ms Kapata: Mr Chairperson, I withdraw the word ‘waffling’. Is the hon. Member, who is actually saying nothing, in order to give that information without laying the evidence on the Table?

 I need your serious ruling, Sir.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: The hon. Member is talking about individuals and individuals cannot be laid on the Table of the House.

Laughter

The Chairperson: Hon. Member, you may continue.

Mr Muntanga: Sir, lay her on the Table.

Laughter

Mr Chairperson: Order!

Order, on my left!

Mr Belemu: Mr Chairperson, where I come from, there are people we call basali ba mwalishishi.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: Meaning what?

Mr Belemu: Sir, these are ladies whom you are embarrassed to be seen with in the day and so you are only seen with them in the night.

Laughter

Mr Belemu: So, to attract attention in the day, they make a lot of noise, including rising on unnecessary points of order.

Laughter

Mr Belemu: Mr Chairperson, …

Laughter

The Chairperson: Order! Order! Order! Order!

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Sir.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Unless you want me to stop the debate, which I am capable of doing, can I have order.

The first person I heard raising a point of order was on my right. I must say let us debate with civility. From now on until the hon. Minister winds up debate, I will not allow any more points of order.

 You have your last point of order.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, thank you for allowing me to raise this last point of order. Is our dear colleague, who is debating, in order to demean our womenfolk …

Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Kampyongo:  … in that inferior traditional way?

I need your serious ruling, Sir.{mospagebreak}

The Chairperson: The serious ruling is that, as we debate, we should, as much as possible, be civil. Let us not be at each others’ throats. The whole idea of debates is to see if we can persuade the right to …

Mr Muntanga interjected.

The Chairperson: Hon. Muntanga, do not push me too far. Please, when I say order, let us be orderly. I am saying that the whole idea of these debates is to persuade each other to see if the idea being advanced can be taken on by the right and vice-versa. However, the way we are debating is not the civil way of going about it. So, Mr Belemu, take that into account. As I have said, I am not allowing anymore points of order on this Vote.

You may continue.

Mr Belemu: Mr Chairperson, I was underlining the point that it is as a result of not being clear on what we want to achieve in these missions …

Mr Mulusa rose.

The Chairperson: I have said, I am not allowing any more points of order on this Vote.

Hon. Member, you may continue.

Mr Mulusa resumed his seat.

Mr Belemu: … the sending of wrong staff to these missions results into squabbles. These missions have become like centres of self-preservation as opposed to serving Zambia’s purpose.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Belemu: Sir, in conclusion, I want to say that I have taken note of what the hon. Minister said regarding JPCs. Again, this is another area where the hon. Minister must follow through. We have had so many meetings in the name of JPCs and the resolutions of those particular commissions are not followed up until, probably, the time comes for another meeting to take place. If there is no meeting for two or three years, there will be no follow-up action on the resolutions that were passed at the last meetings. This also goes to staff who, at times, come from various ministries to attend these JPCs. That, again, is a serious matter that the ministry needs to look at because it is important. However, the resolutions of these JPCs are not imposed.

With those remarks, Sir, I wish to state that there is a lot of homework that needs to be done in as far as our international diplomacy is concerned.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza (Solwezi West): Mr Chairperson, I am a very sad person today because, as you know, the truth always hurts. It has squarely hit the people that are most affected, as you can see by their reactions.

Laughter

Mr Mwanza: Sir, the people are affected because this is a PF ministry and not that of the Zambian Government. Owing to the ministry being under the PF, the Zambians have no say.

Interruptions.

Mr Mwanza: I am not bitter. I want you …

The Chairperson: Order! Order!

Please, let us give each other a chance to debate. The hon. Minister will have the opportunity to say something as he winds up debate. So, please, let us listen.

Continue, hon. Member for Solwezi West.

Mr Mwanza: Mr Chairperson, in the policy statement by the hon. Minister, the issue of career diplomacy was clearly absent. Career diplomacy is a hallmark of good governance, but it was not even mentioned by the hon. Minister. We have a school in Zambia which trains diplomats, but after being trained, they do not find themselves being posted on foreign missions. Our missions abroad are full of relatives of those in power and party cadres. This is not right …

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

What is happening to hon. Deputy Ministers?

Ms Kapata: Hon. Dr Kaingu keeps pointing a finger at me.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order! Order!

This is unacceptable. I do not like that kind of behavior. Let us stop it. Really, let us respect each other and stop what we are doing.

Continue, hon. Member for Solwezi West.

Mr Mwanza: Mr Chairperson, my debate will mostly be restricted to the appointments to Foreign Service. The real names of people who are being appointed to missions abroad are being withheld. If someone is married, the name of the husband is the one which will be highlighted to hide the fact that the person who has actually been appointed comes from a certain part of this country. For example, the person who is heading our UN Mission in New York is a Mrs Bota, but her maiden name is Mwansa.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order! Order!

I think that we are not doing what we should be doing. We know the rules here. Let us not debate people who cannot defend themselves because they are not here. You can speak in general terms, but once you begin naming people, then, that complicates the whole debate. Please, I think let us avoid mentioning names of people out there.

Mr Mwanza: Mr Chairperson, I have taken note of your advice. What I was saying is that if the PF Government was a national Government, how would you describe a situation whereby a career officer at the mission in London, in this case, was recalled because the father back home had joined an Opposition party? What kind of Government is that?

Col. Kaunda: That is just speculation.

Mr Mwanza: It is not speculation and if you want information, I will give it you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza: I have that information.

Mr Chairperson, this is what we are talking about when we say that this Government is heavily weighted towards the promotion of relatives and friends of those in power. The family tree concept is working at its best. We should stop this once and for all. It is not good for Zambia. We have come very far in terms of national unity to allow this to happen today. It is not right.

Mr Chairperson, you will notice that there are some economic missions. Our embassies in London, New York, Washington DC, South Africa and Belgrade are all economic missions. Tell me if any of these missions have a career diplomat. They do not have career diplomats serve for cadres.

Mr Mbewe: And ma girlfriends.

Mr Mwanza: I do not know about that.

Laughter

Mr Mwanza: Mr Chairperson, I think this is not right. We must ensure that we have career diplomats in these places. The hon. Minister must categorically ensure that we send career diplomats abroad so that our diplomats are permanent in these locations. At the moment, we do not have permanent diplomats in our missions abroad. It is very unfortunate to see, today, that a secretary will be in a particular mission without any training and background and, therefore, has no clue in diplomacy. These people who are still raw are the ones who are being sent to open up new missions. It is not fair to our country. I have respect for the PF Government. Our colleagues were elected by the people and, therefore, they must do the right things for the people of Zambia.

Ms Lubezhi: Respect for what?

Mr Mwanza: If they do not, they will go into the annals of history  …

Laughter

Interruptions

Mr Mwanza: … as a Government that did not respect diplomacy. This Government does not respect diplomacy. The amount of money …

The Chairperson: Order, on my left!

Mr Mwanza: Mr Chairperson, according to the hon. Minister, the ministry’s budget is K408.936 million. I think this is acceptable, but the PF Government has a big challenge of ensuring that the appointments of diplomats are inclusive of people from all parts of this country. If not, our colleagues across know what will happen. What is happening, at the moment, is not right. We are all Zambians and want to share the national cake. It should not be tilted towards the PF only.

For example, Sir, the North-Western Province has no diplomat except for one person in Canada. Why is this so? This is not right. The North-Western Province also wants an input in the Foreign Service. I am speaking for and on behalf of Solwezi West Constituency and I know what I am talking about. I have been in the Executive before and I understand these issues very well. Therefore, the PF must remember that the North-Western Province is a force to reckon with. Whether we like it or not, the people there are not happy. As their hon. Member of Parliament, they have told me to come and find out why there are no diplomats from the North-Western Province. Therefore, I am asking the Government where the diplomats from this province are. The fact is that there is nobody. This is unfortunate and must not be tolerated at all.

Mr Chairperson, as I said at the beginning of my debate, I am very unhappy. However, I have great respect for my brother there, the hon. Minister of Justice, because he has been able to cite tribalism in the Ruling Party.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza: Sir, he saw it and pointed it out and, therefore, our friends must change. If they do not, it is going to be very sad. The problem is that we, the Zambians always cherish bad people. We do not like upright thinking people because they tell us the truth when we are wrong. As I stand here, I am telling the PF that it is wrong to only recruit its relatives in the Foreign Service.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza: Mr Chairperson, it is not only relatives of PF cadres who are educated to be sent on foreign missions. Even the people from Chovwe must go into foreign missions. Now, I want to say …

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order, on my left, please!

Laughter

Mr Mwanza: … that I have noted the opening up of new missions. The hon. Minister did not indicate this in his policy statement, but he can do that in his summary when winding up debate on this Vote. Missions are to be opened in Portugal, Turkey and Jeddah in Saudi Arabia.

Mr Chairperson, if it is true that these missions are being earmarked for opening, I think you should reconsider your position. Turkey is problematic because it is economic …

Hon. Government Members: Economic?

Mr Mwanza: Yes, it is an economic mission. It is a growing economy, like Brazil, and the Government must take people who are qualified on such missions.

Interruptions

Mr Mwanza: You must ensure that …

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

Can you address the Chairperson.

Mr Mwanza: Mr Chairperson, you must make sure …

The Chairperson: Order!

Say “The Government must make sure.”

Mr Mwanza: Mr Chairperson, the Government must make sure that it takes qualified people to these economic missions abroad.

Mr Chairperson, I would advise the PF not to disguise the names of the people appointed to foreign missions. It must highlight the full names of the appointed people, including their maiden names, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza: … because that is not the case at the moment. However, the people of Zambia know what is happening. Do not think that they do not know. We know what you are doing.

Mr Chairperson, my appeal to the PF Government is that it should be focused. I know, for certain, that sons and daughters from the PF ranks are diplomats. However, how can a poor Opposition hon. Member of Parliament have his son recalled because the father belongs to the Opposition? It is wrong and it is deadly. We should stop this.

Mr Chairperson, with these few remarks, I thank you, Sir.

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Bwalya can take the Floor.

Mr Mulusa: How can he talk like that?

The Chairperson: Order!

Ignore him. Just continue.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bwalya (Lupososhi): Mr Chairperson, as usual, he has a mouth of diarrhoea.

Laughter

Mr Bwalya: Mr Chairperson, I fully support the Vote for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs which we are debating.

Mr Chairperson, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs is strategically positioned in the sense that, to a large extent, the FDI depends on this ministry. The way we nurture our international relations will actually trickle down to the number of investors that will come into the country. It is this ministry that also contributes to national security in the sense that the way we interact with our colleagues in the Diaspora or in foreign countries will determine how well we will maintain our borders. It is this ministry that helps the Ministry of Finance to get the funding that we are enjoying from our co-operating partners. It is because of the fact that we run this ministry well and that the people whom we are surrounded by believe in us that we have had eminent people visit this country from the time the PF took over.

Hon. Opposition Members: Who?

Mr Bwalya: Mr Chairperson, we have had the Secretary-General of the UN, Mr Ban Ki-Moon …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bwalya: … visit the country. He is very eminent and he came because of the foreign and international relations that we have maintained with the international community.

Mr Chairperson, we have had visits from the Prince of Wales, Prince William.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Bwalya: … who came on a private visit,

Hon. Opposition Members: So?

Mr Bwalya: Mr Chairperson, we also had a visit from the Norwegian-Crown Prince. Mr George Bush has been here twice. Bill Clinton has been here. The former President of Thailand has been here and very recently, …

Mr Mulusa stood to raise a point of order.

The Chairperson: Order!

I ruled that I will not allow any more points of order under this Head.

Mr Bwalya: Mr Chairperson, very recently, we had the Secretary-General of the United Nations World Tourism Organisation (UNWTO). This is because we have the Ministry of Foreign Affairs which is doing very well in ensuring that we interact effectively and efficiently, but with dignity and integrity.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bwalya: Mr Chairperson, I also want to say that it is because of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs that those Zambians who are living in the Diaspora have somewhere to run to in the event of wanting to communicate with their mother Zambia. It is because of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs that we have these foreign missions that are maintaining the register of the Zambians who are living abroad and this includes students.

Mr Chairperson, a number of our colleagues on your left have children schooling outside the country and it is because of this Foreign Affairs Ministry that they can be …

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Bwalya: … traced …

Mr Mulusa stood to raise a point of order.

The Chairperson: Order!

Please, when I make a ruling, it is final.

Mr Bwalya: Mr Chairperson, they can be traced and they know where these embassies are located. They are comfortable that they have a place where they can go to in the event that they have problems.

Hon. Opposition Members: No.

Mr Bwalya: Mr Chairperson, when all is well, yes, you can say no, but if calamity struck, these embassies would be able to stand in for the Zambians and that is what we want.

Mr Chairperson, we need to be very careful. I have heard, several times, people from your left say that what is good for the goose must be good for the gander. I know that the UPND may not be in that shoe, however, the MMD has been here before …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bwalya: … and it is true that most of the people that were in the PF at the time it was in Opposition were not given a chance to go into the Diplomatic Service. This is a fact. I do not think that we should come here and politick on tribal lines. We need to be very careful. There is only one Zambia. Regardless of which part of the country you married from, you cannot say that we should not disguise maiden names with marital names because President Kenneth Kaunda promoted the “One Zambia, One Nation” Motto and we have inter-married.

Mr Chairperson, we have children who are quite young, but qualified to work. At the age of twenty-three, some of them have degrees. Should they not be given a chance? Should we not be exposing them?

Mr Chairperson, one of the gentlemen on your left used quite a lot of Bemba phrases. I want to say in Bemba that, “Imiti ikula empanga”. This means that the youth are the leaders of tomorrow. If we do not expose a twenty-one-year old to various work experiences, I am afraid that this country will end up going round in circles and we will end up with old people. I do not think that that is what we want. Therefore, if a Zambian is twenty-three years old, has the qualifications and is able to perform effectively, please, let us give him/her a job.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bwalya: After all, that is why we are here. That is what we want to promote. However, let us not stand on a political arena or even on the Floor of this House to claim some sections of society are disadvantaged on tribal lines. No. I think that that should be discouraged. We are debating the budget of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and we know that all the employed people in the Republic of Zambia are children of the Zambian people, regardless of which tribe they belong to.

Mr Chairperson, every Government that comes into power has certain strategic positions that have to be manned by those who understand the vision and the values of the political party that has taken over the reins of power. This is not a hidden fact. You can go to Europe, the rest of Africa and the USA and you will notice that the tradition is the same.

Mr Chairperson, the appointment of diplomats and high commissioners is a prerogative of His Excellency the President.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bwalya: This is enshrined in the Constitution which we all undertook to protect and defend. So, since it is his prerogative, let us allow His Excellency the President to appoint those that he deems fit to work in these positions because he knows that they will be able to deliver to the expectations of the Zambian people.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to urge the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs to not only look after foreign missions, but also ensure that the people who are posted to those missions are also well looked after so that they are able to concentrate on their jobs. This will also help them to ensure that they not only attract trading or foreign investment, but also portray a good image which the Zambian people are known for. It is what they say which will educate the people or our colleagues in foreign countries on who we are. The hon. Minister should also ensure that these people are well remunerated. In this way, they will not engage in vices which will put the country to shame.

Sir, I still want to say that it is not right to delve into a debate on tribalism. We belong to different ethnic groupings and we just need to concentrate …

The Chairperson: Order!

One of the rules in this House is against repetition. You raised that point earlier and I want to believe that you drove the point home.

Please, continue.

Mr Bwalya: Mr Chairperson, let me end by talking about the infrastructure at foreign missions. I was privileged, through the National Assembly, to visit the Kinshasa Mission and another one. Infrastructure maintenance needs to be prioritised so that it is in a state which portrays a good image. When people are visiting the embassies, they must know that they are visiting a Zambian Embassy. The infrastructure at Zambian missions is in a deplorable state. Some of it is dilapidated and we need to spend part of this budgetary allocation on ensuring that we give it a facelift and allow those who are working in foreign missions to work in better buildings in which they can perform effectively.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mufalali (Senanga): Mr Chairperson, I will be diplomatic for the sake of my brother, Mr Simuusa. I want to congratulate my young man, Hon. Simuusa …

Mr Simuusa pointing at Mr Mufalali.

Laughter

The Chairperson: Order!

He is not a young man. You see, he is pointing at you with a finger on his left finger saying, “Watch out!”

Laughter

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, I congratulate Hon. Simuusa on his new appointment.

Firstly, Sir, I would like to highlight a few issues that the hon. Minister should be aware of. He indicated that he desired to open embassies. I think the opening of embassies should be in line with the sphere of influence that we want to have as a nation. Unfortunately, going by the appointments which we have seen, so far, we really need to fight for influence. The whole world is pushing for influence, and so, we should look at people who are capable of influencing the world.

Mr Chairperson, what my fellow hon. Members have said, so far, gives us an indication that what we are sending out there is not up to standard. As a nation, we need to send the right people in order to ensure that we demand influence either regionally, continentally or intercontinental. However, suffice to say that, so far, it is unfortunate that the appointments that are being made are not meeting the required standards.

Mr Chairperson, still on appointments, some accountants who have been sent abroad and have not even done Government accounting do not meet the required standards. I think it is important that they are retrained or recalled so that the people handling Government accounting in a proper manner can be taken there. Otherwise, sending those who were on the streets to manage finances out there is something which needs to be reviewed.

Sir, the issue of governance also comes into play under this ministry. I am worried because this trickles downwards from the top. I know that His Excellency the President could be overarching when it comes to appointments, but it is also important that the hon. Minister, good as he may be, stands firm and indicates to His Excellency the President the fears of what may transpire ahead by making some of these appointments.

Mr Chairperson, it is important that the hon. Minister, as the first diplomat, finds a way of asking His Excellency the President to be diplomatic in his approach towards various issues such as when making appointments and even in the way he exposes himself on camera. Unfortunately, what we have seen, so far, is that it has become habitual for His Excellency the President to blast people in Cabinet meetings. I think that is alien to diplomacy. We need to see some diplomacy from our Head of State.

Ms Lubezhi: Hear, hear!

Mr Mufalali: Sir, my other fear, which also trickles from the top, is where a wife of His Honour the Vice-President, for instance, accepts to sit on a board. All this is coming from the domestic set up going on the international scale. I think, allowing wives of either His Excellency the President, His Honour the Vice-President or an hon. Minister to sit on boards is detrimental because that instills fear …

The Chairperson: Order!

I am trying to see the link between what you are talking about and foreign affairs.

Mr Mufalali: Yes, I am getting there. I am talking of governance. I am saying that we need to do the right things from the domestic setup to ensure that when we draw them out onto the international setup, which is foreign affairs, we would have put the right things in place. We must start from home. I am literally re-emphasising the point which Hon. Belemu put across that the system should be that of doing the right thing domestically. We must endeavour to do the right things.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, if we are not doing the right things domestically, how are we going to be rated internationally? We will be negated and that is what is obtaining.

Mr Livune: Charity begins at home.

Mr Mufalali: Yes, actually, I am being reminded that charity begins at home, knowledge speaks and wisdom listens. So, you listen.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, the other point I want to make on the Ministry of Foreign Affairs is on the embassies which the hon. Minister wants to open. When other countries are closing embassies because they do not want to spend a lot of money is when we are opening more embassies. I think we are blowing our own trumpet. It is important that we manage embassies from which we will benefit. Unfortunately, as a country, we have failed to ensure that our influence is felt out there.

Mr Chairperson, I think some of the diplomats, be they retired diplomats or politicians, have failed to promote Zambia to an extent of gaining the influence which we need. We have spoken too much for other countries. When these retired diplomats want to say something, they say “the sanctions on Zimbabwe must be lifted,” and another diplomat will stand to talk about other countries. What about our own country?

Mr Chairperson, it is incumbent upon the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs to ensure that he uses people whom he feels will bring pride to our country. However, he will not be able to achieve this for as long as he continues to send cadres and relatives to serve the nation on foreign missions.

Coming from the Western Province, I am saddened that your ministry can appoint someone …

The Chairperson: Can you address him through the Chair.

You may continue.

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, I am saddened that the PF Government can appoint someone and not honor its appointment. This person was given a diplomatic passport, but is still languishing while those who are not even qualified are being sent abroad. Someone with a Masters Degree in Marketing is languishing here and when we ask, we are told that the name was vetoed. What about the names of those who were vetoed in other countries and have been sent somewhere else? Why is the Government keeping a person like Mtangelwa, who comes from the Western …

The Chairperson: Order!

Let us avoid mentioning names. Why do you do it deliberately?

You may continue.

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, I am saying that some of the names that came from the Western Province that have been vetted in certain countries have not been taken to other embassies. We want to know what the livelihood is of those who have not been taken to the embassies where they are supposed to go. Is the Government paying them or not? Why are they holding onto diplomatic passports when they are not working, and yet they have been given appointment letters? We need to know why the Government appointed people whom it cannot give the offices they deserve.

Sir, the hon. Minister talked about cluster ammunition. In the Western Province, in Sesheke District, we have a place called Imusho. For one to get to Imusho, he/she has to go through Namibia and one has to drive carefully because there is fear of running into landmines which were planted by the South West African People's Organisation (SWAPO). What is the ministry doing about that situation? The people in that area have not benefited in any way for helping Namibia gain its Independence. The only person who has benefited is some former Head of State who has been given a house …

Laughter

Mr Mufalali: Mr Kaunda was given a house in Namibia, and yet the people of Imusho are suffering.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, we fought with the Namibians, but have not benefitted from it and I think the hon. Minister should ensure that something is done for the people in Imusho, Silumbu, Luso and other areas that are impoverished because of the fighting that took place there. The freedom fighters were fighting from there and the whites from South Africa were dropping bombs on them there.

Sir, some of my friends failed to complete school because they would run away from school when they knew the jets were coming. It is unfortunate that, today, they are villagers and are doing nothing.

Mr Kalaba: And you?

Hon. UPND Members: He is here!

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, the other issue which is of concern to me and should be addressed by the ministry is the Media Report 2011 that someone allegedly went to Sudan and signed an agreement with a political party or organisation. The hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs should give policy guidance. We cannot have a person who was not a Government official, at that time, signing documents on behalf of this country. How can the scribe of a party sign documents on behalf of our country? We need to see changes in the way things are handled in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

Sir, we would like to see more of the hon. Minister’s influence on the international stage, as he is diplomat number one. We do not just want to see him travelling around and coming back without bringing any benefits. He has indicated that he has and will continue moving around the world to try to bring development to Zambia.

Mr Chairperson, the country is not being visited by sitting Heads of States. What is happening in the ministry? Why is it that presidents are not visiting? The only President who visited is one from some country somewhere …

Mr Muntanga: Mugabe!

Mr Mufalali: … and, to us, he is not sitting well because we believe he is a dictator.

Mr Livune: That is right!

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Mufalali: We do not want to only see dictators visiting. They will bring in bad influence.

Mr Mukata indicated dissent.

Hon. Opposition Members: Birds of a feather.

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, we are told that two cannot walk together unless they are agreed. Therefore, that dictator who keeps visiting should stop. We want the Government to start bringing people who believe in democracy because we are a multi-party democracy.

Sir, finally, I would like to urge the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs to find the right people to serve us, as a nation.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simuusa: Mr Chairperson, I was sitting here listening to the many issues that have been raised concerning the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. I have had the opportunity to address my members of the ministry at the headquarters and I have had the opportunity to visit some missions to start acquainting myself and changing certain things. One thing I have been saying, which I am glad has been recognised, is that the Ministry of Foreign Affairs is a very strategic ministry.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order, on my left!

Mr Simuusa: I have been privileged to run the Ministry of Mines, Energy and Water Development and after that the Ministry of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection and am now running the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. In the short time I have been here, I have seen that the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, without demeaning other ministries which have their place, is the key ministry in driving the economic development and progress of this nation.

Sir, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs is the only ministry that has infrastructure all over the world to access economies where we can get data, assistance and other things we need to drive the economy of Zambia. With that realisation, in addressing members of staff at the ministry and missions, I wish to acknowledge that there are weaknesses in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs just like there are strengths.

Mr Chairperson, in terms of strengths, the ministry is able to co-ordinate meetings and conferences. One of the weaknesses which has been acknowledged, again, is where we have to use the Ministry of Foreign Affairs to drive the economic development of this country, which has been structured accordingly. In that respect, even the Foreign Policy that I will be launching shortly is in that regard. Before, when we talked about diplomacy and foreign relations, it was with regards to peace keeping when there were wars. At the moment, economic diplomacy, which was even talked about by His Excellency when he opened Parliament, is the way to go. Currently, the war is in the realm of economics, if I may put it that way. It was rightly said that it is those who are clever and strategic that will get a share of that economic cake of the world. That is the way the Ministry of Foreign Affairs will move forward.

Sir, in that regard, I wish to call upon all of us, as Zambians, and hon. Members of Parliament to support this Vote so that that aspect, which I can assure the nation and Parliament that we are pushing, is realised. In the short time that I have been appointed, that is one area that is going to receive prominence even in line with the Foreign Policy. In that line, there are key missions that have been identified and they will be magnified. For this to work, the missions must tick. If our missions abroad do not tick, then, we must forget about using foreign affairs to add value to this nation.

Mr Speaker, a lot of money is spent and I did, again, challenge people in the ministry and in the missions that we need returns on investment. A lot of money is being spent on missions abroad to support this infrastructure worldwide, which no other ministry has. So, it is high time we started getting a return on investment. We have identified key missions which will obviously be scrutinised and bring the right data we need.

Mr Speaker, I have noticed that the hon. Members have belaboured the point with regard to appointments. Hon. Bwalya did mention that the appointing authority is the Head of State. I will neither confirm nor deny the allegations that have been raised on the Floor of this House about tribal arrangements. What I can confirm is that a full-blooded Tonga is heading the ministry.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simuusa: Mr Speaker, secondly, my job as Minister is to ensure that those who are appointed perform. To be appointed and to perform are two different things. What I will focus on as a Minister, is to make sure that those that who are appointed perform to the required standard. Otherwise, we will be forced into arguments over the same issue in this House. We must admit that all of us have relatives and you may have your relative appointed. What is important is for that relative to perform. If they do not perform, that will be another issue. If they need any assistance by having to move them around to make sure that their skills suit a particular mission, then, we shall have to look into that.

Sir, in terms of properties, I said in my opening remarks that even during the short time that I have been in office, I have learnt that the Ministry of Foreign Affairs has a lot of investment.  We have a lot of properties around the country and I agree with Hon. Imenda. It is unfortunate to see some properties that have been neglected. That is why I said we need to allocate some money to start rehabilitating these properties. I am very saddened to see such good property having been neglected over the years. I wonder what the previous Government was doing. I have just come from visiting the mission in Addis Ababa and the property there is in bad shape. The ones in Kenya and New York are also in bad shape, and yet they are prime properties. As our policy in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, we are going back to secure our properties because that is wealth. I would like to commend our forefathers such as Dr Kaunda and the others. I have seen that they had a vision in the way they acquired strategic properties. I think we must recognise that. As the new generation, it is wrong to neglect those properties. I can assure you that we are taking stock of these properties. We are taking into account all properties and if some have been fraudulently sold or otherwise, we shall catch up with the culprits. We will work together with the Ministry of Home Affairs. That is a vision that was started very well and we have to take it up from there. 

Sir, I wish to thank you for the support during the opening of the Israel Mission. I also wish to correct Hon. Mwanza on the list he mentioned of the missions that were opening. Currently, we have thirty-four to thirty-five missions abroad and we are saying we will open extra missions in the United Arab Emirates, Finland, Cuba and Israel. When you look at these countries, you will notice that they have a strategic significance. It will not help us to open missions for the sake of it. It is a lot of money to maintain a mission. That is why I said that, for now, the focus is on the need to start getting returns on investment.

Mr Chairperson, I have met some of our missions even at headquarters here and was telling them that the return on the investment we are spending as country should start coming back in terms of input in driving the economic agenda. If you notice, these countries have strategic input that we can get from them. In terms of numbers, I know countries that are smaller than Zambia, but have a bigger number of missions abroad. When we have thirty-nine missions, smaller countries have eighty. In fact, we had more, but they were scaled down. Where we have a strategic interest, we will have a mission. That is one thing which is on the programme. We will review the missions and see how optimally they are located strategically.

Mr Chairperson, I think that those are the main issues that were raised. I wish to assure the nation and the House that I have a very solid team at foreign affairs. We will take into account all the issues that were raised. They will be addressed so that this very key Ministry of Foreign Affairs delivers to the expected standard.

Sir, in acknowledging the point that was raised, I would like to say that this mission is the image of Zambia abroad. It is very important that the image of Zambia is reflected correctly abroad. Poor imaging will not help us. I can, again, assure you that as the ministry and Minister, being the chief diplomat, that will be done.

Sir, in concluding, I wish to confidently report that as Zambia, we are held in very high esteem out there. Sometimes, we do not realise this fact as a nation. The respect I am accorded as Minister of Foreign Affairs of Zambia speaks volumes. Slowly, around the world, we are being acknowledged as champions of peace and stability and we are being given that slot and respect. Recently, I just came back from holding a JPC with Burundi. The respect that we were given there, as Zambia, was phenomenal.

Mr Chairperson, I would like us to acknowledge that, as a country, our position and visibility is actually being recognised around the world. It is important that we build on that and that is what we are going to do.

Mr Chairperson, with these words, I wish to thank you and all the hon. Members for their contributions which have been taken note of and will be implemented.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

Vote 17/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE17/08 − (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Mission Abroad – Nairobi −  K6,130,44).

Mr Lufuma (Kabompo West): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3002, Activity 018 − Heads of Mission Conference. I have noticed from previous pages that this activity has no allocation in 2014. I would like to find out why this is so.

The Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs (Mr Namulambe): Mr Chairperson, that item has been moved to Programme 9012, Activity 750 −  K35,469.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 17/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 17/10 − (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Mission Abroad – Kinshasa −  K6,680,394).

Mr Mulusa: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3012, Activity 010 – Rehabilitation of Properties – K200,000. I would like to know which properties this money will be spent on.

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, we intend to construct a chancery and there are works that we are supposed to carry out. That is what the money will be spent on.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mulusa: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 9012, Activity 750 − Heads of Mission Conference −  K34,910. I would like to know what could have necessitated the planned conference in Kinshasa on which we are going to spend K34,910.

Mr Simuusa: Mr Chairperson, as per explanation by the hon. Deputy Minister, we have taken it as a one-line item. During that mission, we are going to call all Heads of Missions to Zambia so that we can talk about policy and how we are going to perform. So, that conference will not be held in Kinshasa, but here in Zambia. That is why we have moved it from there to the line that was mentioned earlier by the hon. Deputy Minister. A lot of issues will be tackled at that conference.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 17/10 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 17/11 − (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Mission Abroad – Moscow – K11,886,412).

Mr Mulusa: Mr Chairperson, I appreciate the answer by the hon. Minister regarding a programme that I see will repeat itself in all the missions.

Sir, may I have clarification on Programme 9012, Activity 750 – Heads of Mission Conference – K73,618. I have noticed that we have allocated K73,618 to this programme. Can the hon. Minister justify this expenditure because I do not think that even business class tickets plus allowances would actually cost K73,618.

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, it is expensive to travel. When you look at the distances, they vary from place to place, hence even the figures are different. So, this money is adequate for the upkeep and the travel costs. I think we did quite a good research for us to arrive at this amount.

Vote 17/11 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/12 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the
 Chair]

VOTE 17/13 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Mission Abroad – Gaborone – K6,565,071).

Mr Lufuma: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3001, Activity 011 – Utility Bills – K 18,518.

Sir, under normal circumstances and given inflationary pressures, figures in utilities go up. Here, the figure for utilities is about half what it was last year. Could I know whether this country has been kind enough to halve the cost of utilities?

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, the decrease is as a result of prudence in the way the funds are being utilised in foreign missions. In some missions, we have introduced water meters and cautioned people against the misuse of telephones. As such, there has been a reduction in the figures.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Milambo: Sir, may I have clarification on Programme 3056, …

Mr Mulusa: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mulusa: Mr Chairperson, I rise on a very important point of order regarding procedure in the House in terms of hon. Ministers being factual when answering questions.

Sir, last year, the explanation given for an increment in Programme 3001, Activity 011 – Utility Bills – K18,518 was that arrears were being paid. Therefore, if arrears were paid last year, a smaller amount this year which would amount to the current expenditure, without arrears, would be paid.

Is the hon. Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs in order to go fishing and guessing while answering questions from hon. Members of Parliament on this side of the House who have a package of education, experience and appropriate exposure? Is he in order, Sir?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: The hon. Minister is definitely in order because he has done justice to the question that was being posed.

Mr Milambo (Mwembeshi): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3056, Activity 002 – Political and Economic Co-operation − K39,636. Why is this figure constant?

Mr Namulambe: The figure is constant because the activities that we have lined up remain the same.

Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Mulusa: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 3002, Activity 018 – Heads of Missions Conference. Earlier on when I asked a question, I was appropriately advised that there will be a conference which will be held at a central place, probably, here in Lusaka where all Heads of Missions will come. However, I see that there is no allocation for the mission in Gaborone. Does this mean that the High Commissioner to Botswana will not attend this conference?

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, it is a pity that the people who are highly qualified cannot see that …

Laughter

Mr Namulambe: … the programme has moved to 9012 on the same page.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear.

Mr Simbao (Senga Hill): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3000, Activity 001 – Salaries Division I − K499,432, Activity 002 – Salaries Division II − K137,562, and Activity 005 – Other Emoluments – K5,784,388. I see that there has been an increment in the salaries. Therefore, I would like to know what the increment in percentage is.

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, I think it is in the public domain that the salaries for public workers have been increased, hence the increase in the figures that we have provided.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Vote17/14 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/15 − (Ministry of Foreign Affairs - Mission abroad – Beijing – K14,653,237).

Mr Livune (Katombola): Mr Chairperson, I …

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson:  A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, is it procedural in this House for hon. Cabinet Ministers to allow proxies to sit on the Front Bench on their behalf when they are out? Is it procedural? (Mr Mwiimbu pointing at Mr Mwewa and Mr Kosamu who were seated in the Front Bench).

The Deputy Chairperson: The Front Bench is, obviously, reserved for hon. Cabinet Ministers and if a person is not an hon. Cabinet Minister, he/she ought not to be there. However, if he/she is consulting an hon. Cabinet Minister, he/she can be there. Seeing that some hon. Members are not consulting anybody, they may have to move to their appropriate seats.

Mr Mwewa and Mr Kosamu moved to their respective seats.

Laughter

Mr Livune: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3000, Activity – 002 – Salaries Division II. What has happened to this category of staff at this mission because I see that there is no provision in 2014?

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, because of the salary increments that were effected by the Government, the officers in Division II have migrated to Division I, in accordance with the notches.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Ms Imenda: Mr Chairperson, may I seek clarification on Programme 3001, Activity 003 – Office Administration – K89,070. I have noticed that the figure has gone down as compared to the one for last year. May I have an explanation for this.

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, we are paying attention to every detail of expenditure and as such, certain things like sundries, which were non-essential, have been done away with, hence the reduction.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 17/15 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/18 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 17/20 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs − Mission Abroad – Stockholm – K11,348,625).

Mr Livune: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3000, Activity 005 – Other Emoluments – K10,357,823. I would like to know what constitutes these other emoluments that seem to be so generalised.

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, the persons who are serving in missions abroad are entitled to Foreign Service allowances which are varied in nature and this constitutes other emoluments. In addition, the locally engaged staff is also paid from the same funds.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Vote 17/20 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/23 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/24 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/25 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/26 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 17/27 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Mission Abroad – Brussels – K13,900,873).

Ms Imenda: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3012, Activity 010 – Rehabilitation of Properties – K100,000. I note that there is only K100,000 allocated to this activity. However, I am aware that Brussels is one of the missions with very dilapidated properties. So, that being the case, why has the Government allocated less money to this mission?
 
Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, this year, there is a provision of K2.6 million. This means that there are some rehabilitation works taking place and it is estimated that the amount of work to be paid will only amount to K100,000.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 17/27 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/28 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/30 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 17/31 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Mission Abroad – Berlin – K13,600,417).

Mr Mulusa: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3000, Activity 001 – Salaries Division I – K1,044,11, Activity 002 – Salaries Division II and Activity 005 – Other Emoluments – K12,260,568.  The increment in salaries for Division I is close to 100 per cent and I see that Other Emoluments have also shot up by over 20 per cent. May I have a combined explanation for these changes.

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, I think I will be very slow so that the hon. Member can understand my explanation.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Be slow and comprehensive.

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, in the first place, under Activity 001, the figure has gone up because the officers under Division II have migrated to division I due to the salary increments that were awarded.

Sir, in Activity 005, first of all, the issue of allowances paid to officers serving abroad remains unchanged. They still receive the same allowances. However, the increase is as a result of fluctuations, sometimes, in the currency and also, to meet the increments on the salaries paid to the local staff engaged at that mission.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 17/31 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/32 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 17/33 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Mission Abroad – Pretoria – K10,005,468).

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on page 325, Programme 9012, Activity 750 – Heads of Missions Conference – K54,457. Why is the amount allocated to this activity under this mission higher than the average in other missions?

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, in the first place, I do not even know which average the hon. Member is referring to because even as regards the distances among these missions, there is no average.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, for the same activity, the average amount allocated to other missions in the region, which houses Pretoria, is between K34,000 and K36,000. Therefore, why is the allocation under this mission higher than the rest in the region? We have seen what has been given to other missions.

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, the airfares differ from one station to another. So, you cannot compare Malawi to Pretoria. These are two different routes and the airlines are also different.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 17/33 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/35 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 17/36 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Mission Abroad – Paris – K9,190,383).

Ms Imenda: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3000, Activity 001 – Salaries Division I – K578,878. Why are the salaries for these people quite low compared to other missions in that category in the Western World?

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, salary allocations depend on the number of staff at a mission. Therefore, this is a block figure that is paid to the number of staff that is based at that station.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 17/36 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 17/37 − (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Missions Abroad – Rome – K11,887,891).

 Mr Mulusa: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3000, Activity 001 – Salaries Division I – K808,430. This indicates that we have staff in Division I, for the first time, and even in Division II, whose salaries have gone up by over 30 per cent.

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, this mission has been re-graded and, therefore, it warrants having officers in division I. The positions will be filled, hence we have that provision.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 17/37 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 17/39 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Zambia Anti-Personnel Mine Actional Centre – K2,799,910).

Mr Simbao: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3001, Activity 003 – Office Administration – K58,550. Why has this activity had a drastic reduction, and yet there is a big increment on the salaries?

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, in 2013, we had the Cluster Ammunition Conference and as such, the requirements on the sundries went up. Next year, we will not have that Activity, hence the reduction.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 3079, Activity 005 – Emergency Response (Demining and Risk Awareness) – K41,000, Activity 008 – Mine Risk Education (Awareness) – K50,500. May I know the difference between these awareness programmes because they seem to be the same.

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, these activities are different. As regards, Programme 3079, Activity 005 – Emergency Response (Demining and Risk Awareness) – K41,000, in certain areas, there are some explosives which may have been unearthed as a result of agricultural activities.  Activity 008 – Mine Risk Education (Awareness) – K50,500 is meant to educate the people, hence the differences in the allocation to the activities.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Miyanda (Mapatizya): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3079, Activity 010 – Victim Assistance – K113,200. This amount has increased from K11,346 last year. What has necessitated this huge increase?

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, as a result of sensitisation, we have been going round the provinces and some people who were hiding have actually come on board to say that they are victims. So, we cannot leave them out. We need to help them, hence that drastic increase.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Livune: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 3001, Activity 003 – Office Administration – K58,550. The explanation was that the Cluster Munitions Conference had already taken place, but what is the amount on Programme 3079, Activity 002 − Cluster Munitions Programme – K910,000 for? Can the hon. Minister contrast issues related to the reduction in the other activity and the programme which is getting K910,000.

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, the difference between the two is that in Programme 3001, Activity 003 – Office Administration – K58,550, I explained that we had a conference and a big chunk of that money went towards purchase of the sundries which were required to host the conference. For example, conference bags, files, and a lot of stationery were purchased to meet the requisite. As for Programme 3079, Activity 002 − Cluster Munitions Programme – K910,000, I wish to inform this august House that Zambia has assumed the presidency and as such, we need to increase our activities in line with this because we have to attend a lot of conferences and persuade other nations to join the treaty.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 17/39 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/40 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/41 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/42 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/43 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/45 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/46 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/47 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/48 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/49 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/50 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/51 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 17/52 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Mission Abroad – Riyadh – K7,133,422).

Mr Milambo: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3001, Activity 011 – Utility Bills – K25, 000. What brought about the reduction by 50 per cent?

Mr Namulambe: After looking at the actual expenditure for this mission, it was discovered that there would be a balance and, thus, we opted to go for the actual.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 17/52 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/53 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/54 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/55 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 08 – (Cabinet Office – Office of the President – K144,314,411).

The Vice-President (Dr Scott): Mr Chairperson, it is my honour to present the Cabinet Office Budget Policy Statement for 2014. Cabinet Office is the highest administrative office in the Public Service. It derives its mandate from Article 53 of the Constitution of Zambia …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I would like to follow His Honour the Vice-President. So, please, let us consult less loudly.

His Honour the Vice-President, you may proceed.

The Vice-President: … which is Cap 1 of the Laws of Zambia. It operates directly under the Office of the President of the Republic of Zambia. Cabinet Office is responsible for co-ordinating the effective implementation of Government policies, systems and procedures and for monitoring and evaluating the overall performance of the Public Service for the efficient administration of the Government. Cabinet Office comprises the following offices and divisions.

(a) Office of the Secretary to the Cabinet supported by the  two Deputy Secretaries to the Cabinet responsible for administration and finance and economic development;

(b) Offices of the Former Presidents;

(c) Administration Division;

(d) Management Development Division; and

(e) The Policy Analysis and Coordination Division (PAC)

Mr Chairperson, in order to fulfil its mandate, the following mission statement guides Cabinet Office, “To co-ordinate and oversee the development and implementation of Government policies and systems and to facilitate the conduct of Cabinet business in order to secure the general efficiency and effectiveness of the Public Service.” In line with this mission, Cabinet Office will undertake the following programmes in 2014:

(a) General Administration

Under this programme are major activities to be undertaken including:

(i) facilitating presidential travel, local and foreign;

(ii) Hosting and participating on both local and foreign summits and meetings; and

(iii) maintaining and operating the Presidential Aircraft and motor vehicle fleet in order to enable His Excellency the President to discharge his Executive functions.
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

(Debate Adjourned)

___________

HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

_____________

The House adjourned at 1918 hours until 1430 hours on Thursday, 7th November, 2013.