DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE THIRD SESSION OF THE ELEVENTH ASSEMBLY

Tuesday, 12th November, 2013

The House met at 1430 Hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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ANNOUNCEMENTS BY MR SPEAKER

ZAMBIA HEART AND STROKE FOUNDATION SENSITISATION TALK

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, I have two announcements to make.

Firstly, I wish to announce that the Zambia Heart and Stroke Foundation will hold a sensitisation talk for hon. Members of Parliament on cardiovascular diseases, including heart diseases and strokes. This talk will take place on Wednesday, 13th November, 2013 from 1030 hours. Hon. Members are expected to attend this talk on a voluntary basis. However, hon. Members are highly encouraged to attend this meeting to learn more about cardiovascular and heart diseases. 

OPERATIONS OF PARLIAMENT RADIO

I wish to convey to the House information relating to the operations of Parliament Radio, in light of the interruptions we have experienced in transmission in Lusaka and other sites, including Kitwe, Kapiri Mposhi, Kasama, Solwezi, Chipata, Mongu, Livingstone and Pemba.

The interruptions in transmission have been due to the following reasons:

(i)    technical faults on the transmitting equipment which are very rare; and

(ii)    interruption of electricity power supply from the Zambia Electricity Supply Corporation (ZESCO). This has been frequent in all our transmitting sites. This is, therefore, the reason, occasionally, some of our transmitting sites, including Lusaka may fail to air our programmes. For areas outside Lusaka, the failure to transmit, may last even for an entire day. We have engaged ZESCO and the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC) to ensure that we find a lasting solution to these challenges.

Hon. Members may wish to note that all the transmission stations operate independently of each other. This means that if one station is not transmitting, other stations would nonetheless be able to transmit
I regret the inconvenience the breaks in transmission are causing, but would like to assure the House that they are not calculated acts, but rather situations beyond our control.

I thank you.

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MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

CONSTRUCTION OF 650 HEALTH POSTS

The Minister of Health (Dr Kasonde): Mr Speaker, thank you very much for granting me this opportunity to present a ministerial statement on the construction of 650 health posts countrywide.

This programme was announced by His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Michael Chilufya Sata, in his Address to this august House in September, 2012. These health posts are being constructed through a US $50 million Indian Government concession loan to the Government of Zambia. The loan agreement was signed on 29th March, 2012.

Sir, since the pronouncement was made, the Ministry of Health has embarked on a number of activities to actualise the construction of the 650 health posts. One of the major activities undertaken was the identification of sites across the country. The 650 sites have been identified and documented in the 2013 Ministry of Health Infrastructure Operational Plan.

Mr Speaker, in addition to the identification of sites, my ministry carried out a rigorous procurement process based on international best practices to identify contractors to build the 650 health posts. For easy management of the procurement process, the 650 health posts were split into three lots in order to minimise the risk that may result if all the health posts were awarded to one contractor. The lots were as follows:

(i)            Lot 1: Jaguar was awarded a contract to construct 208 health posts in the Central, Copperbelt and Eastern provinces at the cost of US$19,458,236.

(ii)    Lot 2: Angelic was awarded a contract to construct 247 health posts in the North-Western, Muchinga and Luapula provinces at the cost of US$18,100,160.

(iii)    Lot 3: Mega was awarded a contract to construct 195 health in the Western, Southern and Lusaka provinces at the cost of $18,387,160.

Sir, as can be appreciated, the total contract sum awarded for the construction of the health posts is US $55.9 million, and the Government made a provision for an excess of US $5.9 million with regard to the loaned amount.

Mr Speaker, these contracts were signed on 3rd July, 2013. As per procedure of acquiring loans, the Government has finalised all the paper work regarding this project, and the documents were submitted to Exim Bank of India, which is the appointed agent of the Government of India to administer the loan. The Government has now received a ‘no objection’ from the Exim Bank of India, which was needed before the disbursement of the funds and construction works could commence. It should be noted that the Ministries of Health and Finance are closely following up this issue. I hope that we shall soon embark on the construction of the 650 health posts.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Pande (Kasempa): Mr Speaker, have the three different companies that have been awarded the contracts to construct the health posts indicated how long it will take for them to complete the projects?

Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, it was agreed from the beginning of the negotiations that the construction period would be two years.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo (Mumbwa): Mr Speaker, how long did it take to source the loan before the President made the announcement to this House?

Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, the loan was offered by the Indian Government in March, 2012. All that was needed before the announcement could be made was the signing of the necessary documents.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwila (Chipili): Mr Speaker, we are tired of hearing stories about the 650 health posts.

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwila: Sir, we have told our people that the contractors will be on site anytime. Can the hon. Minister tell the House when the contractors will be on site.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, I do not share the hon. Member’s frustration.

Mr Livune: Question!

Dr Kasonde: Sir, however, I appreciate the impatience that is developing. Since we have now passed the final hurdle, as it were, I can safely say that we should hand over the first contract site to the builders, hopefully, before Parliament rises but, at the worst, within four weeks. When deciding on the first construction site, I hope that we shall take into account the constituency of the hon. Member, who has been nicest to the Ministry of Health during the course of the Budget Debate.
I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mtolo (Chipata Central): Mr Speaker, could the hon. Minister state, very clearly, if all the 650 sites have been identified. Is there a list of the sites?

Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, we distributed a full list of the sites a long time ago. If need arises, there would be no problem in us re-distributing the list.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, I just want to know the domicile of all the three companies that have been awarded the contracts.

Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, it was a condition of the loan that all the contracts be awarded to Indian contractors which were going to work with Zambian partners. 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Mr Speaker, since the Government has announced a recruitment freeze, I would like to know if the health posts are going to be manned by unqualified staff. Is the recruitment freeze going to be over by the time the Government completes the construction of the health posts?

Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, recruitment is an important, but different issue from what we are discussing. We shall deal with that issue as we continue to debate the Budget. With the permission of Mr Speaker let me deal with the matter in a broader scale at the right time.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mufalali (Senanga): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out if the structures will be prefabricated.

Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, I can confirm that the structures will be prefabricated.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lufuma (Kabompo West): Mr Speaker, could the hon. Minister state what these facilities will comprise.

Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, the structure will consist of the essential elements of a health post. The health posts will provide out-patient services.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muchima (Ikeleng’i): Mr Speaker, the information about the construction of 650 health posts is most welcome. In certain constituencies, many health posts have been constructed using the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). To date, these health posts have not been opened. Is the Government waiting to complete the 650 health posts first before it can open the other posts which have already been built?

Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, I wish to express my gratitude to hon. Members regarding their contributions to the debate on the construction of the 650 health posts. Some health posts in certain communities are incomplete because there was no communication with my ministry when the construction works began. Some communities have asked the ministry to intervene after running out of resources for the construction works. Those which have reached the completion stage have done so without discussing with the ministry how their health posts will be staffed. I think we should take this as an opportunity to urge the communities to involve the ministry from the beginning of their projects. 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Simbao (Senga Hill): Mr Speaker, this loan was offered to Zambia as far back as October, 2010 and by August, 2011, the Indian Parliament had already approved it. Why has it taken this Government so long to get the money from Exim Bank of India?

Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, it is difficult for me to give a chronology of the events that preceded the 29th March, 2012 Agreement with the Indian Government. Naturally, we would all be curious to know why, having received that offer in 2010, nothing seems to have happened until we got into power. Nevertheless, we were prepared to take it up and we did so. 

Before the Exim Bank of India could release the money, we had to agree on certain issues with the contractors that were selected. Ultimately, a lot of time was lost in that process. Such things happen in issues involving two governments.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mooya (Moomba): Sir, why did the Government go for prefabricated structures instead of using local materials?

Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, our Government was offered those structures by the Indian Government. We considered the offer and accepted it.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Sir, the hon. Minister indicated that the prerequisite for the loan was that the three contractors to erect these prefabricated health posts had to come from India. How many Indians and Zambians are going to be involved in this project? If he is kind enough, could he inform me when this loan is due to be paid back and the interest it is going to attract.

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members are reminded to ask only one question at a time.
Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, I will be mindful of your guidance as I respond to the question by Hon. Nkombo. I will respond only to the question regarding how many Zambians will be part of the project because the issue of employment has been prominent in our debates concerning the 2014 Budget. We accepted this loan with a view to ensuring the participation of Zambians, not only in terms of the percentage they would have in the contract itself, but also the number of people who would be employed to do the construction work. I believe that we shall achieve both objectives. Doing so is critical to achieving the objectives which we have come up with for the successful implementation of our Budget.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Kaingu (Mwandi): Mr Speaker, did the Ministry of Health consult hon. Members of Parliament on the sites where these health posts will be and, if so, why was the hon. Member of Parliament for Mwandi not consulted?

Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, this is a point that I believe I have spoken on many times before. At no stage was the Ministry of Health party to the selection of sites. Instructions were sent to the provinces through the provincial health offices to ensure that the selection was done by the local people because the health posts are for them. Our belief is that the consultation was done. We circulated the document with the list of chosen sites and those who came forward with concerns were redirected to the places where the final decisions were made, which are the local areas. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Ndalamei (Sikongo): Mr Speaker, does this loan include medical equipment? 

Dr Kasonde: No, Sir. The money is only for the construction of the structures. We have made other provisions for equipment and workers.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mbulakulima (Chembe): Mr Speaker, hon. Minister, I put it to you that in the mind of an average Zambian, the delay …

Mr Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Chembe, let me have a moment, please. This is time for clarifications and not, for ‘putting it to the hon. Minister’. 

Laughter 

Mr Speaker: It has a different signification when you do that. You are making a suggestion or an assertion. It is time for clarifications.

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister confirm that the delay in the disbursement of these funds by Exim Bank of India was as a result of the Patriotic Front’s (PF) poor governance record.

Mr Livune: That is right.

Mr Mbulakulima: Can he also confirm that with this confusion prevailing in the country, Zambia is not likely to receive this money and we should just forget about it.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: One question only, please.

Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, my belief is that never before have we had such good governance as we have now.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Opposition Members: Question! 

Mr Speaker: You wanted confirmation.

Laughter

Dr Kasonde: I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chisanga (Mkushi South): Mr Speaker, I have a number of clinics in my constituency which have been completed, but do not have manpower. What assurance can the hon. Minister give to this House that when the construction of the 650 clinics has been completed, there will be manpower deployed there?

Dr Kasonde: Sir, fortunately, the planning for the health workers for these health posts was done from the very beginning. We know exactly how many health workers are required to man the 650 health centres. I can, therefore, assure the hon. Member that this matter has been taken into account.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Konga (Chavuma): Mr Speaker, considering that the money from the Indian Government is a loan which has to be paid back by Zambia, why did the Government of the Republic of Zambia agree to terms like erecting prefabricated structures and the main contractors coming from India, instead of insisting on contractors being Zambian?

Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, this, like any other negotiation, required that all aspects be taken into account. Some of the conditions we agreed to may not be the best that we might have wished for, but I can assure the hon. Member that when making the final decision, the Government took into account the benefits in comparison to what would have happened if we did not have this arrangement in place. 

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Ms Imenda (Luena): Mr Speaker, in his answer to the question by the hon. Member for Mwandi, the hon. Minister said that the sites for the health posts were picked by the community. How come the hon. Members who are the elected representatives of the communities were not consulted?

Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, I am interested to know what the hon. Member for Luena considers a community to be. I would have thought that we meant the same thing. In the letters we wrote to the provinces, we described the community to include hon. Members of Parliament. I am surprised that the hon. Member of Parliament for Mwandi was not consulted.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

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QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

CONSTRUCTION OF CIVIC CENTRE, MARKET AND STAFF HOUSES IN SIKONGO

175. Mr Ndalamei (Sikongo) asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing when the civic centre, market and staff houses in Sikongo District would be constructed.

The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr Kufuna): Mr Speaker, the Government, through the Ministry of Local Government and Housing, has prioritised the construction of basic municipal infrastructure which includes civic centres, staff houses, guesthouses, multi-purpose community halls, markets and public libraries, among others, in the new districts. The ministry has already facilitated the preparation of concept designs for basic infrastructure for the new districts. It is currently facilitating the preparation of detailed working designs for the same municipal infrastructures.

Sir, in addition, the ministry has also directed the new districts to expeditiously work with all stakeholders, including traditional leaders, to identify land for the development of townships under the facilitation of the provincial fiscal planners.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Ndalamei: Mr Speaker, since we already have land in the new Sikongo District, when are we seeing the new structures?

Mr Kufuna: Mr Speaker, I said that the concept designs have been drawn. What is remaining is for the designs to be presented to the Ministerial Procurement Committee for approval after which the works will be tendered.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Livune (Katombola): Mr Speaker, going by the many things to be built in Sikongo District, can the hon. Minister educate me as to whether only the new districts will be developed by the Patriotic Front (PF) Government or other underdeveloped districts that have long existed like Kazungula will also get new infrastructure.

The Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mrs Kabanshi): Mr Speaker, our priority is the newly-created districts.
    
Mr Muntanga: Question!

Mrs Kabanshi: Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mufalali (Senanga): Mr Speaker, the question raised by the hon. Member for Sikongo is about the time frame for the construction works. Why did the hon. Deputy Minister give a chronological order of things which are not part of the question? When will the construction works take place? That is what we want to know now.

Mrs Kabanshi: Mr Speaker, the hon. Deputy Minister has already answered that question. He said that after the procurement process has been exhausted, we will tell you when we will start and finish the construction works.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

ZNBC TWENTY-FOUR HOUR COUNTRYWIDE BROADCASTS

176. Mr Musonda (Kapiri Mposhi) asked the Minister of Information and Broadcasting:

(a)    when the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation Television (ZNBC) would start broadcasting its programmes for twenty-four hours every day countrywide; and

(b)    when remote areas in the country that do not receive any television signal would start receiving it.

The Deputy Minister of Information and Broadcasting (Mr Njeulu): Mr Speaker, the ZNBC has two television programming channels, namely TV1 and TV2. Using these two programming channels, ZNBC has been running twenty-four hour broadcasts countrywide since 2010. 

Sir, the ZNBC has the widest range of programming from education to social and political issues. TV1 programming starts broadcasting at 10:00 hours and ends at 24:00 hours. After midnight, programming switches to the ZNBC TV 2 until the following morning. TV2 is predominantly an entertainment and business channel which runs for twenty-four hours.

Mr Speaker, the ZNBC currently runs sixty-four analogue transmitters which do not cover all the remote areas, but about 80 per cent of the population. The corporation will increase its transmitter network to eighty-six once the Digital Migration Project has been implemented. This project will not only improve the quality of the ZNBC signal, but also increase the number of channels and also cover most of the rural parts of the country.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, is Hon. Kapeya going to ensure that the television signal in Shang’ombo is improved, considering that he is now the hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting? I am speaking on behalf of the people of Shango’ombo.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Njeulu: Mr Speaker, let me inform this House that a team of engineers went to Shang’ombo last week to inspect the plot for the television and radio transmitters.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kapeya rose.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order!

A very useful intervention.

Laughter

Mr Hamusonde (Nangoma): Mr Speaker, we used to receive the television signal in Nangoma sometime back but, at the moment, we do not do so. What has caused that state of affairs?

The Minister of Information and Broadcasting (Mr Kapeya): Mr Speaker, certain parts of the country do not receive clear signals. This is why the hon. Deputy Minister stated that with the coming of digital migration, all the parts of the country will be covered.

 I thank you, Sir. 

SESHEKE BASIC SCHOOL

177. Mr Sianga (Sesheke) asked the Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education:

(a)    what the total number of pupils enrolled at Sesheke Basic School was as of 30th September, 2013;

(b)    whether the Government was aware that health authorities in the district declared the ablution block at the school to be unsuitable for use by the pupils;

(c)    when a new ablution block would be constructed; and

(d)    when more teachers’ houses would be constructed at the school.

The Deputy Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education (Mr P. Ngoma): Mr Speaker, as of 30th September, 2013, the total number of pupils enrolled at Sesheke Basic School was 2,942.

Mr Speaker, the Government is aware of the state of the ablution block and the District Education Board Secretary (DEBS) Office has plans to rehabilitate the ablution block. You may wish to know that two double Ventilated Improved Pit latrines (VIPs) were constructed by the Parent Teacher Association (PTA) to deal with the present situation at the school.

Mr Speaker, the construction of a new ablution block will commence when funds are made available.

Mr Speaker, under the 2012/2013 Infrastructure Development Plan, the Government will only construct staff houses at Namakambwe, Sooka, Namuzingu and Mutemwa at a total cost of K520,000.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sianga: Mr Speaker, arising from the response  by the hon. Deputy Minister, that only two double VIP latrines will be constructed, is the Government considering the construction of an ablution block at Sesheke Basic School as an urgent issue? Currently, pupils have to queue up in order for them to answer the call of nature, hence making their learning difficult.

Mr P. Ngoma: Mr Speaker, unlike in the past, when the Government builds any infrastructure in the form of schools or teachers’ houses, it also makes sure that if there is a need to build VIPs, that is done. Therefore, in this regard, as soon as money is made available, an ablution block will be built at the school.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mufalali: Mr Speaker, the hon. Deputy Minister has told us that there are 2,942 pupils at Sesheke Basic School sharing two pit latrines. Are you happy, hon. Deputy Minister, that two toilets are being shared at this school in a border town? 

Mr P. Ngoma: Mr Speaker, no human being would be happy to find himself or herself in that kind of an arrangement. That is why the Government is trying as much as possible to make sure that enough toilets are built at the school when money is made available.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lufuma (Kabompo West): Mr Speaker, the hon. Deputy Minister has given us a schedule of projects or schools that are being constructed for the fiscal year 2012/2013. I would like to find out at what stage the schools that are being constructed are, considering that there are only two months or so before the year ends.

Mr P. Ngoma: Mr Speaker, that sounds like a new question.

Interruptions

Mr P. Ngoma: Mr Speaker, in case he wants to know about the new schools which are being constructed countrywide, which are expected to open sometime in January, I think he should file in a new question. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Hamudulu (Siavonga): Mr Speaker, hon. Deputy Minister, what is the difficulty in considering the need for the VIPs at Sesheke Basic School as urgent?

Prof. Luo rose.

Mr Muntanga:  Ngoshe Mukote.

Laughter

Professor Luo: Nkaku lowa ing’ongo, iwe.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Order!

The Minister of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs (Prof. Luo) (on behalf of  the Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education (Dr Phiri): Mr Speaker, we would like to sort out the problem to do with toilets at Sesheke Basic School as soon as possible. However, I think that hon. Members of Parliament are aware that construction works have to be done in relation to the financial support available. Therefore, our ministry is discussing with the Ministry of Finance to see how the releasing of the funds can be expedited.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Speaker, Sesheke Basic School is an old school. That is why it is having problems. With the new demand that people should not freely defecate anywhere, and there are no trees and bushes in Sesheke, hon. Minister, would you consider to declare this situation as a disaster so that money which is available from the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU) can be used to build toilets at the school? Can that option be considered so as to prevent the school from being closed?

Prof. Luo: Mr Speaker, we are talking about one and the same thing. We have said that we are actively trying to find a solution to the problem at hand. Let me also hasten to say that this Government is running a very active programme which is against defecation in the open. We should be given some time so that we can resolve this issue properly.

I thank you, Sir.

__________{mospagebreak}

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the 
Chair]

VOTE 11 – (Zambia Police – Ministry of Home Affairs – K1,169,426,568), VOTE 15  – (Ministry of Home Affairs  – K451,624,840) and VOTE 16  – (Drug Enforcement Commission  – K63,473,541).

(Consideration resumed)

Prof. Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Mr Chairperson, before the House adjourned, I was looking at the withering away of the authority of our police officers. That is exactly what we are witnessing now. For example, last week, our police officers in the intercity as well as at the Intercity Bus Terminus, scampered all over the place, …

Laughter

Prof. Lungwangwa: … running away from the Patriotic Front (PF) cadres. 

Sir, when a police officer is running away, in real terms, it is actually the President who is running away.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Prof. Lungwangwa: Sir, this is because a police officer is a representative of the President. What we are witnessing is the withering away of the authority of our police officers.

Interruptions

Prof. Lungwangwa: Sir, there are many examples which can show that the authority of our police officers is withering away. For example, during by-elections, cadres move around with weapons, some of which are dangerous. The cadres even shoot in the air in the presence of the police officers. The law does not permit that. 

Mr Chairperson, our police officers have witnessed people being abducted and assaulted. They just watch helplessly such events taking place. Where is the authority of the police officers? Look at the chaos on our roads. Minibus drivers have it easy. They can park and drive carelessly while our police officers are watching. Where is the enforcement of our traffic laws?

Sir, bus shelters along the roads have been turned into markets. Where are the police officers? Of course, we know that the city councils, especially, the Lusaka City Council, have gone to sleep. They are not functional. That is why people are using bus shelters as markets. This is the situation we have found ourselves in. Truly speaking, the authority of our police officers has been diminishing at a fast rate. This is extremely dangerous for the country.

Mr Chairperson, we have seen what has been happening in countries around us where the authority of the police has been eroded. Many lives have been lost. There are many examples near us. That is where we are heading. Today, it will be a fight among the PF cadres on our roads and streets. Tomorrow, it will be a fight involving Opposition leaders and members. We have seen xenophobia in countries around us and clearly, if the confusion is not controlled by our police officers, we are heading for a catastrophe in this country. I wish to appeal to the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Police Command to control the situation.

Sir, last week, we were told by His Honour the Vice-President that the PF cannot control its cadres because they are hungry, unemployed and poor. Therefore, I wish to request the police to control the situation before our country gets into a chaotic, uncontrollable and anomic situation. This will be unacceptable.

Mr Chairperson, the police show extreme levels of intolerance when dealing with people from the Opposition. The PF cadres are even escorted whenever they want to demonstrate. They are even allowed to stand on the bonnets of police vehicles. 

Interruptions

Prof. Lungwangwa: Sir, the police are being partisan and yet we are in a democracy. We have chosen a democratic system of governance. Thus, the police should rise above partisan politics. Today, it is the PF in Government, tomorrow, 2016 or some other date, it will be another political party.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Prof. Lungwangwa: Sir, the Police Command should rise above partisanship. They should learn from other countries. The police in a democracy should maintain the highest level of professionalism and objectivity as well as pursue the truth wherever it leads. We expect the police to do that instead of being partisan. The police should look at political parties as equal players on the political scene. Today, it is the PF in Government, tomorrow it will be another party. The police officers must rise above partisanship and look at the interest of the country whenever they are enforcing law and order. So, as regards discrimination, the police officers should engage in some soul-searching process.

Mr Chairperson, interestingly, last week in Mumbwa, some people were arrested by the police because they wanted the District Commission (DC) out of his office. That was good. That is what we expect a neutral and professional police force to do.

Mr Chairperson, the police have increasingly become an instrument of oppression.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Prof. Lungwangwa: Sir, for example, in the Western Province, ordinary people wearing red berets and sizibas are being thrown in cells.

Hon. Opposition Members: Shame!

Professor Lungwangwa: Sir, the siziba has been a traditional dress for hundreds of years amongst the Lozi people. No one should be arrested for putting it on.

Interruptions

Prof. Lungwangwa: Mr Chairperson, if I was asked to explain what a siziba is, I would begin by praising it just to show how entwined it is with the Lozi culture. The Lozi people praise the siziba by saying, “Siziba manda liyewana sashukutuka omukowa kulingana.”

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Prof. Lungwangwa: Sir, this means, siziba, the brother of Liyewana, when it is loose, the entire clan will benefit.

Laughter 

Prof. Lungwangwa: Sir, that is how entrenched the siziba is in the Lozi culture. People are not supposed to be arrested for wearing such a respectable traditional dress. That is unacceptable.

Interruptions

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, I reluctantly rise on this point of order.

Sir, the responsibilities of our police are well known. We all need to be responsible Zambians. Is the hon. Member, who is currently on the Floor …

Hon. Opposition Member: Debating so well.

Mr Kampyongo: … in order to insinuate that our police arrested innocent people for wearing their traditional attire without proof?

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Kampyongo: Sir, I know that the hon. Members want to create excitement at times. However, they should know that they have certain responsibilities.

The Chairperson: Order!

What is your point of order?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Member in order to abuse the discretions and privileges accorded to us by coming up with insinuations which are quite alarming? I need your serious ruling.

The Chairperson: Let me also seize the opportunity to remind hon. Members that a circular dated today ….

Laughter 

The Chairperson: Order!

A circular dated 12th November, 2013, has been circulated to all hon. Members on when to make points of order. According to page 2 of the circular, the three conditions when points of order can be raised are:

(i)    for the general maintenance of order and decorum in the House;

(ii)    on a question of procedure in the House and when procedure is violated; and 

(iii)    when it relates to business before the House at a particular moment.

Despite being mindful of the third condition, I still wish to state that the hon. Minister of Home Affairs will address the issues which have been raised in Hon. Kampyongo’s point of order at an appropriate time.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Prof. Lungwangwa: Mr Chairperson, police should not be used as instruments of oppression as they are enforcers of law and order. The people of the Western Province fear that the police in their midst are instruments of repression and oppression. That is a fact.

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

Prof. Lungwangwa: Mr Chairperson, we are representatives of the people who should express their feelings when we are here. Since we are discussing the Ministry of Home Affairs, I would like to say that our home affairs in this country are in trouble. The principle of collective responsibility entails working together for a common purpose and vision. 

Sir, we have seen members of our Cabinet attack each other in the newspapers. This is unacceptable and creates instability. It is the reason we find cadres fighting among themselves. They can sense the hatred and lack of team work amongst their leadership. Since Cabinet is part of home affairs, we expect the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and his colleagues to work together for the stability of this country. We will not continue to enjoy peace if they keep on attacking each other in the newspapers. I hope that the hon. Minister of Home Affairs will take what I am saying seriously because it is in the interest of this country. We have enjoyed peace since Independence. However, what has been happening over the past few months among the Cabinet Ministers is not in the interest of our home affairs.

Mr Chairperson, most of our officers are not fully dressed in their uniforms. Every police officer should have a lanyard with a whistle attached to it, but most of them do not. All our officers here at Parliament have lanyards and whistles. A whistle is there to alert fellow officers and the public of any dangers. When a police officer blows a whistle, it is actually the President who has blown the whistle.

Laughter 

Prof. Lungwangwa: What has happened to the Police Command? Where are the whistles? 

I thank you, Sir 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Chairperson, I stand here to support the Vote for the Ministry of Home Affairs and the Zambia Police Force. However, I stand here a worried person because the budget allocation is not enough to solve the problems affecting the Zambia Police Force. 

Sir, the police establishment used to stand at around 34,000 but, now it is only at 14,000. What worries me most is that the hon. Minister of Finance intends to freeze the recruitment of people into the Civil Service next year. This, in essence, means that the anticipated recruitment of the 1,500 police officers which we were told about by a former Minister of Home Affairs will not take place. We need to keep recruiting so that we can reach the ideal number of police officers. We have a shortfall of 20,000 police officers. What magic trick can we play in order to reduce the shortfall?

Mr Chairperson, what kind of policing can be done in a country where party cadres hack each other? I am aware that the shortfall of police is what necessitated the coming up with the proposal to change the name from ‘Zambia Police Force’ to ‘Zambia Police Service.’ We cannot have a police force with our current staffing levels. Why not wave the recruitment freeze so that we try to reduce the shortfall?

  Sir, the recruitment should have a national character. We should recruit police officers from all the parts of the country. It appears as though the human resource division is not actually doing well in this area. Hon. Minister of Home Affairs, you can not have a situation where out of the ten Commanding Officers, six are from one region.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order! Can you address the Chair.

Mr Muntanga: Sir, all the commanding officers can not come  from the Northern and Luapula provinces. If the ministry is not sensitive enough, the lower ranks from other areas will revolt. I have noticed that we are now using ladies and when they fail, we are quick to blame them. It is not correct. If you keep promoting only people from your own kraal, how will the others feel? I am not saying this out of malice. If you indicate that you do not know what I am talking about, I can give you the names and areas. I have got a list. Please, let us not make people from one area feel that they are more Zambian than others. 

Mr Nkombo: This is a serious matter.

Mr Muntanga: Sir, it will not help us. The other point I want to raise is that it is common knowledge that we need roadblocks once in a while. Roadblocks should not be a permanent feature. We should consider paying the people manning the roadblocks well so that they can stop begging for money from motorists. They tell motorists that they cannot not manage to inspect motor vehicles on empty stomachs. Those with faulty vehicles just bribe the officers in order to go past roadblocks. Even some criminals go past checkpoints that way. I want to appeal to the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and the Inspector-General of Police to go back to the time when we were using members of the community on the roadblocks. It is very difficult for the police to work on their own. No wonder the Second in Command of the Zambia Police Force once told the Road Transport and Safety Agency (RTSA) officers that, “Do not do things like this. You will make the Ruling Party unpopular.” This led to a war of words between RTSA and the police officer. How can RTSA officers make the party in Government unpopular for arresting drunken drivers?

Mr Chairperson, officers should not be scared of being removed from their positions for doing the right things. They should be professional at all times. Some officers are working under very difficult conditions. The Deputy Inspector-General of the Zambia Police Force, Dr Jere, should not have done what he did. The officers should work together and remain united. Why should it take the police three days to arrest a person who is suspected of having committed murder? In Livingstone, in a case of suspected murder, seventy-two people were locked up. This was before even proper investigations were conducted.

Mr Nkombo: Declare your interest.

Mr Muntanga: Sir, I declare interest because I was one of those who were locked up. I ended up being locked up when I went to the police station to simply ask what was going on. I was with Hon. Nkombo, Mr Sejani, Mr Siakalima and the United Party for National Development (UPND) President, Mr Hakainde. The officers even beat up Mr Hakainde’s bodyguards, claiming that they were inciting people in Livingstone to become violent. Who incited people? Why should the police behave that way? If something big happens in the Southern Province, the Inspect-General and his Deputy should rush there. It took three days for the police to know who had done what with regards to the recent violence which erupted in Lusaka. When people are hacking each other, how can the police just collect the pangas without arresting those who were carrying them?

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: What kind of people are you?

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, it is strange to see a couple of police officers walking around with pangas and saying that they are still looking for the people who had murdered someone.  

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Sir, what are they telling us? Why should they do that? Who are they deceiving?

Mr Nkombo: Themselves!

Mr Muntanga: Sir, the police officers were showed on television with the pangas they had confiscated. You were carrying pangas …

The Chairperson: Order! Hon. Muntanga. The ‘You’ might mislead the people out there. Address the Chair.

Mr Muntanga: Sir, they were carrying pangas.

The Chairperson: Yes, it was not me.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, sometimes, when I look at you, I see them.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Sir, I do not want to look at them. This is a serious matter. The hon. Minister of Home Affairs should be seen to be working. How come the hon. Minister is able to make statements when something related to the Opposition happens? Even the hon. Minister of Justice said something when an individual in Livingstone was suspected to have been murdered by the UPND cadres. Something has now happened within their party. They are quiet after having killed a person. 

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: They have what?

Mr Muntanga: Sir, they have killed a person. 

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Sir, they cannot even comment on the matter after bajayana. They cannot even condemn the incident. Why are they doing things like that?

Mr Nkombo: Why are they!

Mr Muntanga: Sir, they should not be do things like this. Hon. Minister of Home Affairs, you will be getting a lot of support from the people if you do not behave in a partisan manner. 

Sir, we know that they wanted to be deporting people. The number of people who are being deported under the PF Government is higher than those who were deported under previous regimes. You need to have proper reasons for deporting people. It shows that they do not know what they are doing when they deport someone and then find an excuse to bring the same person back after some time. I remember having said that I was against the deportation of Fr Banyangandora on the Floor of this House. Presently, he is in Lundazi.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, let them not be overzealous. They are good people.

Hon. UPND Members: No, they are not.

Mr Muntanga: Sir, I want to urge them to work well with us. The Ministry of Home Affairs controls everybody. If the ministry does a good job, everybody will support it. There is no force that has controlled the world. Even apartheid lost. If they want to try to use guns to control people, they will fail to do so. The biggest weapon in the world is man and not an animal. A human being can easily kill you. We want to tell the Ministry of Home Affairs that we know that its budget is not enough for it to do a good job. 

Sir, I am glad to note that some hon. Ministers try to help the police. I have seen hon. Ministers doing some work at roadblocks. 

  Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

  Mr Muntanga: Yes.

  Laughter

  Mr Muntanga: Sir, they do that, especially in areas where there are by-elections. Even the son of our First Republican President does that.

  Laughter

  Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, he can be at a roadblock for the whole night.

  Mr Nkombo interjected.

  Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, I tend to wonder when he performs his duties as hon. Deputy Minister. This shows how the shortage of staff …

  Col. Kaunda: On a point of Order, Sir.

  Laughter

  The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

  Hon. Opposition Members: One Zambia.

  Col. Kaunda: Mr Chairperson, the hon. Member is speaking so nicely, …

  The Chairperson: Order!

  Col. Kaunda: … and we are enjoying his debate. However, is he in order to involve me, …

  Laughter

  Col. Kaunda: … a poor son of a peasant farmer, …

  Laughter

  Col. Kaunda: … in his debate?

  Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

  The Chairperson: Well, according to my recollection, there was no name that was mentioned. 

  Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

  The Chairperson: I do not know why the hon. Deputy Minister thinks it was him who was being referred to.

  Laughter

  The Chairperson: Can you continue.

  Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, I thank you very much for your protection. The guilty are always afraid.

  Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

  Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, the hon. Deputy Minister is a good friend of mine. When we assume power, hon. Ministers shall not act as policemen on roadblocks.

  Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

  Mr Muntanga: Sir, the situation is completely out of control. Even the police officers do not know what to do. They say that they do wrong things in order to please apamwamba.  

  Mr Chairperson, this is the only time when police officers are controlled by party cadres. A party cadre who was the PF Provincial Secretary of the Southern Province went to command the Commanding Officer to arrest Hon. Nkombo. 

  Mr Nkombo: He was assigned by a Minister.

  Mr Muntanga: Sir, he was instructed to do so by an hon. Minister. These are the things that we do not want to continue seeing. When you continue doing such things, we will not approve the Budget. 

  Mr Nkombo: Yes.

  Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, if you have six out of ten commanding officers coming from one area, what will happen to those from other areas? We will not give them money use the police force to persecute people. The Public Order Act was there even when we were under the Movement of Multi party Democracy (MMD) Government. However, today, its being administered in an overzealous manner? 

  Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

  Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, we have seen party cadres running up and down on the streets without any police permit while being escorted by the police on the side.

  Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

  Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, when they hear that there are people from an Opposition political party who are running on the streets without a police permit, they send police officers from Lilayi …

  Ms Imenda: From Kamfinsa.

  Mr Muntanga: … and Kamfinsa to deal with them. Why do they do that, Mr Chairperson? Maybe, you can tell me.

  Laughter

  The Chairperson: Why do you want to involve me.

  Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, it is because I cannot ask them? 

  Mr Chairperson, this book is yellow. Let them take it as a yellow card because next time, we shall not approve the Budget.

  I thank you, Sir.

  Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

  Dr Musokotwane (Liuwa): Mr Chairperson, my contribution to the Vote of the Ministry of Home Affairs this afternoon will be in two parts. In the first part, I am going to talk about the policing services in Liuwa. In the second part, I am going to talk about the general security situation in Liuwa, Kalabo District and the rest of the Western Province …

  Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

  Dr Musokotwane: … and how that relates to the budget that we are discussing.

  Mr Chairperson, let me start by talking about police services in Liuwa. Liuwa is a big constituency. The north-south direction is about 130 km and the east-west area is 88,000 square metres. However, this vast space does not have even a single police station. This being an area bordering another country, we know that criminals take advantage of that situation. They commit crime in one country, then escape into the other country.

  Mr Chairperson, as we speak, cases of cattle rustling are on the increase. Cattle is being driven into Angola and it is impossible to stop it. As we speak, cases involving the so-called execution squads, the karavinas, are still rampant. This year, we have lost two lives. The last one was executed just last week. So, the plea of the people of Liuwa is that come 2014, this constituency bordering another country which is not yet stable, must have, at least, one police station. The people are concerned about the security situation in the area and have been very resourceful. They have made arrangements for office accommodation and houses for police officers.

  Mr Mutelo: Hear, hear!
 
  Dr Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, we just need a top up so that we can manage to accommodate five to six police officers. When people get injured in my constituency, they are told to go with a police report to a health centre before they can be attended to. For one to get a police report, that person has to walk for three days to find a police station.

  Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

  Dr Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, clearly, this is not helping us. I am ready to give the hon. Minister the details of the place where we want the police station to be constructed. At Lowola, we have provided the accommodation, so, please, give us that police post.

  Mr Chairperson, let me now talk about the general security in the area. We are here approving money for our security services. Why are we doing this? It is because we want our people to live in peace and tranquility. However, I regret to say that part of this money is actually going to disturb the peace of the people.

  Dr Kaingu interjected.

  Dr Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, part of this money is going to be used to terrorise the people of the Western Province.

  Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

  Dr Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, there was a time I was amazed with what I saw in my constituency. Whenever a motor vehicle arrives in my constituency, people congregate in order to find out the owner and his or her mission. When I went there, people did not come to my motor vehicle. When I came out, that is when they said kibona bo MP which means, it is our hon. Member of Parliament. They thought it was the dreaded police. 

  Hon. PF Member: You are unpopular.

  Dr Musokotwane: Sir, it is not about me being unpopular.

  Lt -Gen. Shikapwasha: Unpopular police.

  Dr Musokotwane: Sir, they did not come to the motor vehicle because they thought it was the unpopular police who had come. They told us that the youths in that area no longer sleep in villages. They sleep in the swamps.

  Dr Kaingu: Oh-oh!

  Dr Musokotwane: … and forests. This is because every so often, a motor vehicle with a private number plate comes to arrest people. The people said that they were shocked that this sort of thing was happening under the PF Government. They were shocked because they believed that the PF Government was their friend. I think they have good reasons for saying so. These colleagues, who are across, gave assurances to the people of the Western Province. The PF said it was in support of the Linyungandambo. However, it is now arresting people belonging to the Linyungandambo. When the PF was campaigning, it stated that it was in support of the Barotseland Agreement’s implementation.

   Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, the people are on firm ground. 

I would like to quote The Post newspaper of 22nd May, 2011. These words are attributed to President Sata and are as follows:

“No sensible leader or political party can dispute this agreement that gave rise to Zambia. It is a valid agreement. The abrogation of this agreement was through an Act of Parliament which changed the whole system of local government.” 

Sir, in another statement, President Sata said: 

“The Linyungandambo are peaceful, loving people, who want their children to be employed.”

Mr Chairperson, the statement I am about to quote was written by Zarina Geloo under the Open Society Initiative for Southern Africa (OSISA) who quoted President Sata at one of his campaigns saying:

“How can he ignore an agreement that was signed, sealed and delivered almost forty years ago? There is no honest person who can deny the existence and validity of the Barotseland Agreement and those with integrity honour valid agreements they entered into whether they like it or not.”

Sir, the Zambian Watchdog has a video clip in which President Sata addressed the people of Mongu at a huge rally, saying he would restore the Barotseland Agreement, once elected President, in ninety days. 

Mr Ndalamei: Sure? 

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, can you imagine how shocked the people are that a party which promised them all these things is now arresting them for belonging to the Linyungandambo, using the money that we, the citizens of this country, contribute to the National Treasury? The people are very shocked. They have realised that those profound promises were for one thing only, the vote. The PF wanted to get the vote of the people and abandon them afterwards, as one would abandon a serviette after cleaning his or her hands. This is how the people feel. 

Mr Muntanga: Toilet paper. 

Dr Musokotwane: Hon. Muntanga says toilet paper.

The people have realised that this “donchi kubeba” meaning deceive them, …

Hon. Government Members: No!

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: … was simply meant for them and not for the MMD. They now understand the friendship between the United National Independence Party (UNIP) and the PF because the first “donchi kubeba”, was by UNIP. 

Sir, in 1964, the UNIP Government said that it would uphold the Barotseland Agreement. Once UNIP got what it wanted, it abandoned the people of the Western Province. This was definitely the first “donchi kubeba”. 

Mr Kalaba: What about the MMD?

Dr Musokotwane: Sir, the people have now realised that there is a culture of “donchi kubeba”.

Mr Chairperson, the people of the Western Province, who have long been suspicious of the PF, are very disappointed. They did not trust the PF then, and do not trust it now. 

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Dr Musokotwane, I have been listening to your debate and trying to see the connection between what you are stating …

Hon. Dr Musokotwane remained standing. 

Mr Kalaba: Sit down!

The Chairperson: Order!

Yes, Hon. Dr Musokotwane, sit down.

Laughter 

The Chairperson: It is my responsibility to tell him that. Do not take away my job. 

Laughter 

The Chairperson: Nevertheless, hon. Member for Liuwa, I am trying to find a link between the subject under discussion and what you are discussing. Can you link them up so that we are clear that you are not discussing the Barotseland Agreement? 

Dr Musokotwane: Very well, Sir, the link, which I will come to shortly, will be made. I am aware that we are discussing the budget and I intend to make the link so, please, be patient with me. 

Laughter 

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, I was saying that the people have never trusted the PF. I think that when the members of the PF were campaigning, bearing in mind that they were not trusted, prayed to their god to deny the people of the Western Province wisdom to deduce that the promises being made were fake. 

Laughter 

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, in conclusion, we are here to approve and disburse money for our security forces so that our people can live in peace. The security of a country goes beyond the police, guns and uniforms. Our colleagues prayed to their god to deny the people of the Western Province wisdom. They should probably start praying to the same god to give them wisdom to realise that the amount of money allocated for guns and uniforms will not bring peace and security to the country.

Mr Muntanga: On a point of order, Sir. 

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised. 

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, are the people on your right, the PF, in order to influence you to ask a Member to take his seat …

Laughter 

Mr Muntanga: … when the Standing Orders indicate that when a Presiding Officer is speaking while seated, a Member can remain standing, but that when he stands up, the Member should take his seat. Are these people in order to direct a person to take his seat when you, Sir, are seated?

The Chairperson: No, it was not the people on my right. I asked him to sit down. 

Hon. Dr Musokotwane, you may continue. 

Laughter 

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, I was saying that peace and security is not about weapons. 

Hon. Muntanga told us a few minutes ago that there have been repressive governments in the world. The Germans had the best arsenal. South Africa, during Apartheid, had a fierce army and air force as well as nuclear weapons. In the end, however, they realised that mere availability of resources, without the wisdom of knowing that when conflict arises, it needs to be resolved, was not a key to peace. 

Sir, our colleagues need to have that wisdom. Without this wisdom, next year and the year after it, our security forces may be five, ten or even fifteen times more, but that will not be a guarantee to our continued peace. This is the connection I wanted to make here today. I hope that this is acceptable to you, Sir? 

The Chairperson: No, do not ask me questions simply because I have kept quiet. 

Laughter 

Dr Musokotwane: Sir, it is, therefore, very important that we avoid getting into a situation worse than the one we are in now.  

Mr Chairperson, I thank you. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutelo ( Lukulu West): Mr Chairperson, thank you …

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, thank you for according me this opportunity to raise a very serious procedural point of order pertaining to the deliberations of this House and the pronouncements that are being made by ourselves. I am aware that this House is not just guided by the Standing Orders of this House. It is also guided by the precedents set through the pronouncements of Mr Speaker and the practice in the Commonwealth pertaining to the deliberations of this House. We are in receipt of a circular that has been circulated, guiding us on how to raise points of order. 

Mr Lubinda: What is your point of order?

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, is it now procedure to ignore all the precedents that have been made in this House and all the procedures in the Commonwealth that guide us pertaining to points of order? Effective today, should we ignore all the rulings of all the previous Speakers? We are aware that the Speaker has guided that, if there is an urgent issue that affects the lives of our people, we must bring it to his attention. 

Mr Livune: That is right.

Mr Mwiimbu: Sir, is it procedure now that we should completely ignore all the procedures, which have been governing the operations of this House for a long time? I need a serious ruling on this matter.

Ms Kalima: We need a seminar on this.

The Chairperson: My serious ruling is that, that is your own interpretation. 

Laughter

The Chairperson: I will go to page 3 of the circular. The information which is contained in the circular is not new.

Hon. Government Members: Ba belengeleni.

The Chairperson: That is Mr Speaker’s guidance. Mr Speaker is just reminding us of issues we were told about a long time ago. On page 3, the circular states:

 “I therefore encourage Hon. Members to use other procedural mechanisms that are available for raising important and urgent national matters. The following are some of the procedural mechanisms available:

(i)    questions of urgent importance under Standing Order No. 30;

(ii)    His Honour the Vice-President’s Question Time on Fridays;

(iii)    ministerial statements by Ministers; and

(iv)    Private Members’ Motions.”

  That information is not new. I would hope that the old Members are acquainted with those rules. They should help our new Members to follow the rules so that when a ruling is made, it should not be subjected to questions. So, that is in order. This circular was issued in 2011. The Hon. Mr Speaker, is merely reminding us. 

  Can Hon. Mutelo continue.

  Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, in Lukulu and Mitete, there are about 90,000 people, protected by twenty-two police officers.

  Mr Muntanga: You see.

  Mr Mutelo: Sir, quick mathematics would mean 4,090 people being protected by one police officer. Is that in order?

  Laughter

  The Chairperson: Order! I was so engrossed in the debate that I forgot it was time up.

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.{mospagebreak}

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the 
Chair]

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, 90,000 people are being serviced by twenty-two police officers in my area. When the police vehicle which is in the area breaks down, it is taken to Mongu. Currently, it is in intensive care, if there is such a thing. The twenty-two police officers are operating without a vehicle at the moment. 

Laughter

Mr Mutelo: Sir, how can peace and order be maintained like that? How can the police for two districts work with no vehicle. Is that fair? 

Dr Mwali:  What is your point? Are you debating?

The Chairperson: You are disturbing him.

Mr Mutelo: Sir, we are approving money here which will end up only in Lusaka. It will not trickle down to the last officer in Lukulu. How I wish bo Chair …

Laughter

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, how I wish there was a way of coming up with a special fund to ensure that the uniformed officers who are doing the right things at the grassroots are given special incentives. At the moment, akuna mari in the rural areas for the police.

Hon. Government Members: Meaning?

Mr Mutelo: Sir, it means there is no money for the officers in rural areas. The constables and inspectors in rural areas work under very difficult circumstances. However, we still expect them to deliver good results.

Sir, in the 2012 Budget, there was a provision of K100 million kwacha for the creation of a police post at Washishi Border Post. To date, not even a single ngwee has been released for that project. Is that in order? I was part and parcel of the people who approved that Budget. Not even a single sign is there that the project will kick-off. Cattle is stolen from Zambia and taken to Angola. There are also people who steal things from Angola and run into Zambia. Is it in order?

Sir, a mobile registration exercise for National Registration Cards (NRC) for Lukulu and Mitete has never taken place. We just talk about it here. When people from the two areas want to get their NRCs in their old age, they are asked a lot of questions. In Washishi, where can you get a birth certificate?

Laughter

Mr Mutelo: Sir, home affairs are all about peace and order. In the Western Province, our sitting arrangement was ku boola. People would sit with legs folded nicely because there was total peace and no running about. Mazazi aa, aba sa boola batu kwa bulozi. They are no longer sitting the way they used to sit as Lozi people. They are now sitting like any time they can be on the run.

Mr Muntanga: Hear, hear!

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutelo: Sir, why are they making us sit in an on your marks posture?

Mr Muntanga: On your marks, get ready!

Laughter

Mr Mutelo: Sir, it is the promises you made …

The Chairperson: Can the hon. Member debating get used to addressing the Chair. Use the pronoun ‘they’ instead of using the word ‘you’.

You may continue, please.

Mr Mutelo: Thank you for your guidance, Mr Chairperson.

Why are they making us stop ku boola? Alu sa boola mwa bulozi? 

The Chairperson: What do you mean?

Mr Mutelo: Sir, it means we no longer sit comfortably the way we used to. If someone knocked on the door, the people inside the house would tell him or her to wait. Today, this is no longer happening.

Laughter

Mr Mutelo: Sir, people aba sapateha kwa bulozi. Akusana.

Mr Mufalali: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutelo: Sir, it means our old sitting arrangement is no longer there.

Sir, we are now debating the Ministry of Home Affairs Vote which deals with the peace and order of this country when we do not have that in the Western Province. Do we have that?

Mr Mufalali: No!

Mr Mutelo: Sir, I want to thank Hon. Mufalali for his response. I was asking that question to the people from the Western Province. Now, let me ask the people from Lusaka a question. Do we have peace and order in Lusaka? 

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Laughter

Mr Mutelo: Sir, Hon. Muntanga talked about some hon. Ministers being found at checkpoints. He forgot to mention that, now, party cadres are doing the same thing. Recently, party cadres mounted a roadblock on the road leading to the airport. Is that order? 

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Mr Mutelo: Sir, we need to avoid the imisango yaba chairman which I remember the hon. Minister of Home Affairs talking about on the Floor of this House.

Laughter

Mr Mutelo: Sir, a chairperson of a party is now dictating how the police officers should work. 

Sir, people on your right must learn that peace has to start from here. At the rate things are going, people might start punching each other in here. That violence will then spill over to outside this House. 

Mr Mbulakulima: That is right!

Mr Mutelo: Sir, the police officers failed to handle the recent happenings in Lusaka. They have failed to track down most of the culprits who were behind the recent violence in Lusaka. Is it that most of them are untouchable?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutelo: Sir, this kind of thing should not be happening. It is a sign that there is no peace and order in our nation. The people seated on the right are divided into two groups. I think that some people might stop talking to each other sooner or later.

Laughter

Mr Mutelo: Sir, soon the PF hon. Members will put His Excellency the President in a difficult position. Our colleagues seated on the right must be united if they are to properly help the Head of State run the affairs of this country. 

Mr Mutelo: Sir, where is the freedom, peace and order? Let there be these things in the PF. 

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutelo: Sir, if there is peace in the PF, there will also be peace in the entire country. The people on the right should not put this nation on fire. 

Yesterday, all the shops yabamwenye were closed.

Laughter

Mr Mutelo: Sir, the people of Lukulu started phoning me yesterday, asking me where this nation was going. They think that they need to get ready for some running.

Laughter

Mr Mutelo: Sir, the people’s way of life in the Western Province has been disturbed. It should not be like that. Should I support this Vote?

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Mr Mbulakulima: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Chairperson, I want to thank you most sincerely for having accorded me this opportunity to raise a point of order. I apologise to my brother who always articulates matters accurately.

Sir, I rise on a very serious point of order. I have perused through the Standing Orders of 2005 on page 14, Item No. 30 – Notice of Question of Urgent Importance. In today’s circular, the Speaker has guided under what circumstances a point of order might be raised. 

On 30th of October, this year, I raised a point of order on the Ministry of Home Affairs in which I wanted to know about matters related to the lives that were lost in Rufunsa and Livingstone. That was before a life was lost in Chelston. 

Sir, related to the same issue are the by-elections which will soon be held in Mansa Central. The elections are going to take place on 22nd of November and today is 12th November. The life which was lost in Chelston would not have been lost if the police had done its job well.

My point of order is: Is the hon. Minister of Home Affairs in order not to respond to an urgent question that requires urgent attention since it is of national importance? Is he really in order not to answer the question?

The Chairperson: The problem is that when we allow you to raise points of order, you debate for a long time. Please, let us make our points of order brief.

I have been advised that your question is being processed.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah, for how long?

Laughter

The Chairperson: He raised a point of order, and I am responding to it. Hon. Member, your question is being processed. When you file in an urgent question, it does not necessarily mean it will be regarded as such. We will look at it to determine whether it is an urgent question or not. Sometimes, we may let the question come into this House as an ordinary question. In that case, the question will take long to be brought before the House.

These are the rules which are set by you, hon. Members. So, if you want them changed, there is a procedure which you can follow to do that. Do not give us trouble for merely implementing your decisions.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

The Chairperson: If you want these rules changed, you can bring that suggestion before the Committee on Privileges, Absences and Support Services. If the Committee thinks that your request is not worth considering, it will throw it away. These are the powers you have given to the Committee. In short, the answer is that your request is being processed, but not as a question of an urgent nature.

Hon. Member, you may continue.

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, before the point of order was raised, I was saying that uniformed staff are now scared of cadres. In the Western Province, where there was no death recorded, eighty-four people were arrested and remanded in custody. Thirty people were later released. Of these people who were arrested, three are Grade Seven school boys who have been denied an opportunity to write their examinations. One of the boys is still in custody.

Hon. UPND Member: Shame!

Mr Mutelo: Sir, where there was death, the police have not apprehended as many people as they did in the Western Province. Is that in order?

Hon. UPND Members: No, they are out of order.

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, the law should be applied fairly and equally to every citizen. Maybe, you are trying to say that the people of the Western Province are not Zambian citizens. If you are saying so, then give them the Barotseland, which you promised them. You said the Barotseland Agreement was a simple matter to handle. However, it has proven not to be a simple matter. Instead of dialogue, you are now arresting innocent people. This is not law and order. When I advised the PF Government to put its house in order, I was told to stay out of its party issues. Now, the PF has turned into paya friend, meaning they are killing each other.

Laughter

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, now some are holding grudges against those believed to be behind the killings, and they are saying they will also paya them.

Laughter

Mr Mutelo: Sir, the police are just watching what is happening. Is this order? 

Mr Chairperson, I have been put in an awkward position. How can I support the budget when the police in my area have no operational vehicle? If I support this budget, people will continue to kill each other.

Laughter 

Mr Mutelo: Sir, sooner rather than later, the killing will spread out to different parts of the country. I do not want that to happen because I still want to live and see Zambia go forward.

Hon. UPND Members: Forward!

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, let our colleagues put their house in order. Police should pick up suspects in large numbers, especially where death is recorded.

Sir, let us have a vehicle sent to Lukulu Constituency for the police.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima (Chembe): Mr Chairperson, I want to thank you most sincerely for giving me this opportunity to debate the Motion which is currently on the Floor. Let me assure my colleagues that I am not only a democrat, but also moderate.

Mr Livune: That is right.

Mr Mbulakulima: Sir, thank you for giving me this opportunity to make a few remarks. I will be very brief, just as my fellow sports administrator, Hon. Dr Kalila, is brief usually. When I left Mansa a few hours ago, I assured the people there that they would listen to me speak on Parliament Radio. Unfortunately, because of home affairs, the radio station has been paralysed.

Laughter

The Chairperson: Order!

An announcement was made earlier, by Mr Speaker, regarding the problems affecting the transmission of Parliament Radio. Can you get on to your subject.

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Chairperson, I thank you, more so that the good Lord is listening. Let me start by talking about issues to do with immigration. When we opened up the economy in every sector, a lot of people entered our country. This should be a source of concern. An influx of people in the country might disturb its peace. Some religious fundamentalists may enter the country.

Sir, I have seen that in the recent past, we have made our borders too open and very porous. This could be very dangerous. In the past, we used to have clean-up operations. Although the operations may have been condemned in one way or the other, they helped mitigate certain negative vices. If we are not careful and allow religious fundamentalists to enter the country, there are chances that, what is being experienced in West Africa could also come to Zambia. We need to tighten the loose screws. That is why we must guard against certain vices and support the concept of Zambia being a Christian nation. This has been very helpful and has paid dividends. By leaving the doors very open, we might be inviting very dangerous religious groupings into this country.

Sir, I now want to talk about land grabbing. I believe that the Ministry of Home Affairs should play a critical role in ensuring that people’s property is protected. There are other stakeholders like the Ministries of Local Government and Housing and Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection that should also play a role. However, the core protector of the Zambian people is the Ministry of Home Affairs. What we have seen in the recent past where people are being hacked, land is being invaded at will, and there is no protection, is a source of worry. It is setting a very dangerous precedent. It is my sincere hope that the police, under the Ministry of Home Affairs, will play its role properly. The situation in the country is getting out of hand. I get surprised when I hear comments that the people who are at the centre of the confusion are from the MMD. They say that yesterday, they were putting on blue and today, they are putting on green. That is the more reason they should find it easier to stop them because they did not help them win elections and form Government. Now that the PF is in the saddle and is supposed to be in control of the country, why should it allow these unscrupulous people to disturb the peace of our land that we have enjoyed for so long?

Sir, I would like the hon. Minister to know that for me, this is a source of worry and needs his serious attention. Lives are being lost and people are living dangerously. On the other hand, I know his feelings about this matter. I have interacted with him. He is very annoyed with what is happening. How he wishes he could have more power to stop this anarchy. I think he is one of those who have been threatened. I want to tell the hon. Minister that he is the last man in our line of defence. The people of Zambia are looking up to him. If we tackle the situation more aggressively, we can stop what is happening.

Mr Chairperson, I also want to talk about the incentives for our police officers. I believe that the morale of our police officers is at its lowest ebb. There is a need for the Government to motivate the women and men in uniform. Our police officers are no longer given mealie-meal allowance. Further, I think the issue of bulletproof vests, which the MMD almost handled, has not been satisfactorily settled. Presently, we have heard that police officers are even hammered or slapped on their cheeks while they watch helplessly …

Mr Livune: By cadres.

Mr Mbulakulima: … and by PF cadres for that matter. So, I wonder whether we should now actually get them other protective items beyond bulletproof vests. They need something they can use to cover their cheeks so that they do not get beaten.

Laughter 

Mr Muntanga: To cover their cheeks?

Mr Mbulakulima:  Sir, they need to cover their cheeks because they are being slapped. These are serious issues which are lowering the morale of our police officers.

Mr Chairperson, I think one of the issues that the PF raised those days when they were in the Opposition was the lining up along the streets of police officers whenever the Head of State was leaving the country. The PF condemned this practice left, right and centre and called it abuse. We have, however, seen the continued lining up of police officers on roads to date. How I wish the police could stop doing that. What I hear is that because the President moves from State House to the airport with a chopper, the Government is trying to see how it can line up people along that route. I do not know how police officers are going to be lined up in the air where the chopper passes.

Laughter

Mr Mbulakulima: Sir, why should things be done that way? These things do not help boost the morale of our police officers.

Mr Chairperson, the MMD Government had started housing projects in almost every town in this country. However, after commissioning these projects, we have not seen any progress in this regard and yet the number of police officers is increasing. There is a need for this Government to motivate our women and men in uniform through the construction of adequate and decent houses.

Mr Chairperson, the other point I want to comment on are the operations of our officers in Milenge District, which is my district. I know most people in here have debated this matter. Some even questioned why the MMD Government did not correct this situation. However, as Hon. Dr Musokotwane always indicates, there is no finishing line in development. Under the MMD, Milenge was almost transformed. We constructed high schools, hospitals, trades’ colleges and even procured a pontoon for easier transportation in the area. All the basic infrastructure in Milenge was put in place by the MMD. 

Mr Chairperson, on the drawing board was the issue of a district police station in the area. The late hon. Minister of Home Affairs, Mr Sakeni, may his soul rest in peace, even indicated that the Government was going to start the construction of the police station in Milenge. However, today, that dream seems to have been shattered. What is there for the people of Milenge? 

Mr Chairperson, as I was coming from there yesterday, there was a murder that took place in the area. The police had no vehicle or any other means of going to the place where this incident took place. The police in Milenge cried out for help to their colleagues in Mansa who are also completely handicapped. There is a need for us to look into this matter. The strength of the police force in Mansa is very weak. Even districts like Kitwe have more police officers than the entire Luapula Province. This is a source of worry. It is my sincere hope that as we approve this budget, the allocation to the police in Luapula will increase so that we can also employ more officers because we also need protection.

Mr Chairperson, let me now talk about the Public Order Act. I want my colleagues on your right to know that what goes around comes around. Today our colleagues are enjoying the use of the Public Order Act. However, tomorrow when they are out of power, they will cry that they wish they had worked on that law. 

Sir, the concept of denying opposition political parties permits to hold public rallies will not help this country. That is bad governance. There is poor governance in a country where the Opposition is not given a chance to have public meetings. Every time an opposition political party raises that concern, the excuse is that the police have other national assignments. Whenever we, however, check the place where we were denied permission to have a public meeting, we find that there are many police officers manning the place to stop people from going there. This issue is a very serious one and requires serious attention, more so that our colleagues are aware that they are part of a one-term Government.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima: Sir, every Zambian now knows that this Government is not taking us anywhere. Our colleagues should not in future come and wish they had done something about the Public Order Act. Today, they have got the opportunity to correct the situation …

Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mbulakulima: I am sure it is a very serious point of order.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: Sir, you have guided many times before on the issue of hon. Members who debate while seated. At this point in time, I have seen the hon. Minister of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection engaging the hon. Member for Chembe.

Ms Imenda: Who is his uncle.

Mr Nkombo: I am told he is his uncle.

Sir, the National Assembly Members’ Handbook for 2006, on page 25, states:

“34.    A Member should not argue with a Member who is debating. He or she may, however, wait for his or her turn to make a contribution or may raise a point of order, if appropriate.”

Sir, is the hon. Minister of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection and those few who are heckling me now, whom I cannot mention, in order to defy the Standing Orders and continue engaging the hon. Member of Parliament for Chembe while we want to listen to his very fruitful debate? 

The Chairperson: No, they are not in order. Please, let us abide by the rules of our own Standing Orders. What worries me is that when I repeatedly say these are rules we have made for ourselves, some of you begin murmuring. I do not know what the murmuring is for.

Laughter

The Chairperson: The rules of this House are our own. So, we are merely implementing the rules we have set for ourselves. Therefore, what is happening is not in order. 

The hon. Member for Chembe may continue.

Mr Mbulakulima: I will continue, especially after that very good point of order, Mr Chairperson.

Laughter 

Mr Mbulakulima: Sir, there is a need for concerted efforts to improve the operations of this important ministry. What is happening in the country is a source of worry, whereby people are now killing each other and the police are watching helplessly. We have said it before that today’s intra-party conflicts or fights in the Ruling Party will spread not only to the Opposition, but also to the entire country. Once the whole country is engulfed in trouble, it will be very difficult for us to reverse the situation. 

Sir, there is seemingly no one in control of the two warring parties in the PF. I can assure you that sooner rather than later, one of the factions will be controlling the Zambia Army and the other, the Zambia Police Force. Whenever the two clash, it will always be people from the grassroots who will suffer. Today, we are watching helplessly. Signs are there. Our children will ask us: Where were you when the situation was deteriorating? Could you not see the signs? We have been told that the main objective of the ministry is to maintain internal security. However, we are seeing the peace which we cherish quickly fading away.

  Mr Chairperson, I want to support the allocation to this ministry and if I had my way, I would actually advocate that we increase it. There is a lot that should be done. Zambia is in trouble. Unless we reverse this situation, there will be no peace in this country a few years from now.

  Finally, I want to appeal to the Zambia Police Command to be objective in the execution of its duties. We are not allowed to mention names when we are in this House. However, if it is in the positive, we can do so. There are certain retired Inspector-Generals of Police who are admired by the whole country. People appreciate, for example, that Mr Ephraim Mateyo was a good Inspector-General. Where I stay, in Lilayi, I see officers going to provide security at his residence and they always speak well of  him.  They all say that he was a good manager.

  Mr Muntanga: Yes!

  Mr Mbulakulima: Sir, that is the way we should …

  Mr Kalaba: On a point of order, Sir.

  The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

  Mr Kalaba: Mr Chairperson, I rise on very serious point of order. Justice demands that he who comes to equity must come with clean hands. Is the hon. Member for Mazabuka Central in order to talk while the hon. Member for Chembe is debating when he, just a while ago, had risen on a point of order, quoting the Standing Order that does not permit hon. Members of Parliament to debate when another hon. Member is debating? Is he not being hypocritical? I need your very serious ruling, Sir.

   The Chairperson: If he did that, then he was not in order.

  The hon. Member on the Floor may continue.

  Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Chairperson, I would like to support this Vote and wish the Government good luck. We are watching and believe that equal opportunities will be given to all political parties and Zambians in this country. Next time, if we do not see any change, we will have to take a position.

  Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

  The Chairperson: I have been informed that His Honour the Vice-President is involved in … 

  Hon. Opposition Members: An accident.

  The Chairperson: … other national duties and that in his absence, …

  Interruptions

  The Chairperson: Order!

  In his absence, Hon. Lungu, Minister of Home Affairs, is Acting Leader of Government Business in the House.

  Thank you.

  Mr Mweetwa (Choma Central): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to add the voice of the people of Choma to the Motion on the Floor of the House. From the outset, allow me to declare interest. I am a former senior police officer in the Zambia Police Force and sometimes have appointed myself spokesperson for the police in this House, considering that they do not have a union.

  Mr Speaker, there are a few pertinent issues that I would like to raise. Firstly, I would like to look at the state of infrastructure of the police and the welfare of police officers. Looking at the variations in this budget, we moved from K890 million in 2013 to K1.169 million in 2014. However, when you look at the task that has to be undertaken, there is more that we need to do, hon. Minister. We need to allocate more money to the ministry.

  Mr Chairperson, the dilapidated state of infrastructure is known by everybody. However, I just want to single out the issue of police operations in relation to transport. I would have loved the hon. Minister to seriously consider improving the capacity of the police in this particular area. 

  Mr Speaker, in Choma, where I come from, police officers use personal vehicles to do police work. They use personal vehicles to mount roadblocks. They drive a personal vehicle, tinted in nature, park it near an anti-hill and sit inside. When a vehicle comes along, that is the time they come out to waive it down and begin to inspect it. This is a breeding ground for corruption. It is no wonder that recently, the hon. Deputy Minister for the Eastern Province had five police officers arrested for corruption. The PF Government is just interested in using the police without giving corresponding attention to their welfare. I also know that the Government sometimes gives the police monthly monetary targets to collect from members of the public at roadblocks as if they were from the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA). When they get that money, it is taken and abused in many ways, including on by-elections. The people who collect the money do not benefit from it.

  Mr Kampyongo: Question!

  Mr Mweetwa: Mr Chairperson, I am speaking from a point of knowledge. I am not as ignorant as some hon. Members on the operations of the police.

  Mr Muntanga: Hear, hear!

  Mr Mweetwa: Sir, the police need attention in that particular regard. When you look at officers from other agencies that collect revenue, such as the ZRA, you will notice that they are paid handsomely. I am aware that the police collect huge amounts of money, but what goes back to them is nothing. That is why they are compelled to employ initiative. I am not trying to suggest that they should be corrupt.

  Interruptions

  Mr Mweetwa: Sir, I am just trying to buttress the point that the welfare of the police has to be …

  Hon. Government Member: Initiative!

  Mr Mweetwa: Yes, it is initiative because you do not even budget for their stationery. Therefore, for them to have stationery for coming up with a police report, they have to use initiative. 

  Sir, I also want to talk about the police attire. Sometimes, it is embarrassing to meet a police officer at Soweto Market looking for second hand shoes or boots to use. This is widespread. Hon. Minister, these are the things that you need to look at. When you were campaigning as the Opposition, these are the things you said you were going to change.

Sir, I would like to look at a few areas of concern regarding the operations of the police. I must state from the outset that I am finding it extremely difficult to support a budget for the police, given the circumstances of its operations. While I appreciate that there is a lot of political interference from the PF, and that it is trying to make the police begin to work as if it is a political tool, the police needs to know that it is a State apparatus and, therefore, it will be there regardless of who is in the Ruling Party. It has to serve the interests of the people. What we have seen in the recent past amounts to police political misconduct and indiscipline. Look at the way the police behaved in Livingstone. It rounded up and arrested people from the UPND on trumped-up charges. The UPND had nothing to do with that death. Worse still, a commissioner, …

Mr Muntanga: Charity Katanga.

Mr Mweetwa: … whom I am also aware is a lawyer, reduced her levels of interpretation of the law and professionalism to a level of a PF cadre. A day before the by-election, she came on television to mislead the nation by saying that she had done her diligent search and had discovered that the person who had killed the cadre was actually a UPND member, and this caused political mayhem. The integrity of the UPND was questioned to the point that it lost the seat. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Chairperson, why would a police officer reduce herself to the level of a cadre in a blatant and embarrassing manner? As a former officer, I was gravely embarrassed because I know that police officers are supposed to follow orders. That is rule number one that they are given when they are at training school. They must follow orders. Rule number two is that if order number two is wrong, rule number one applies. All officers are guided that such orders must be lawful. However, what we saw in Livingstone were not lawful orders. What we saw in Livingstone, were an hon. Minister of Home Affairs held a press briefing jointly with a police commissioner and cadres, and addressed the nation on issues of security in that area was embarrassing.

Hon. Opposition Members: Shame!

Mr Mweetwa: Sir, the police needs to serve the interest of everybody and not what we are seeing. The attempt by the police officers to become cadres of the PF is what is making them fail to control the thuggery and hooliganism of the PF cadres. The escalating levels of insularity and impunity of the PF cadres is worrying.

Interruptions

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Chairperson, yesterday, there was a riot in town. Ms Charity Munganga who was my squad mate at Lilayi came on television to warn those people who reported that there was a riot that they risked being arrested for raising false alarm that the PF cadres were being violent.

Interruptions

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Chairperson, look at these levels of professionalism. Is this competent professionalism?

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Chairperson, the police has a duty to be able to come clean on these issues. 

Mr Chairperson, not too long ago, the UPND had a rally in Mandevu. A few days later, the PF sponsored cadres in eight minibuses and some vans to go and beat up people who were identified as organisers for the UPND rally. To date, nobody has been arrested. If it was somebody from the PF who was beaten, those police officers would have quickly rounded up whoever was suspected to have been behind the violence. However, because these hideous acts of criminality are being perpetrated by the PF, you will find that nothing has happened. This level of degenerating professionalism is actually descending into a situation where there is lawlessness even amongst the officers who are supposed to maintain or enforce law and order. You had a situation where the court issued a court order saying that the UPND could go ahead with the rally in Kanyama, and the police went to disrupt that rally. The police defied a court order. The court issued a court order for Rupiah Banda to travel out of the country. However, that Ministry of Home Affaires defied that court order and detained the former President. How can we be here to approve a budget of such an incompetent system? I think that the people of Zambia are demanding …

Interruptions

Mr Mweetwa: … that the police realise that ruling parties come and go. No one is interested to come and fire anybody in 2016 when that PF loses. Dr Jere, the Deputy-Inspector General of Police, in recognition of their lack of popularity …

The Chairperson: Order!

Please, you know, I have been listening and sometimes, I let things pass, but when it becomes necessary, I intervene. Please, stop mentioning names of people who are not here to defend themselves. 

You may continue, Hon. Mweetwa.

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Chairperson, instead of maintaining law and order, we have seen some senior officers at the level of Deputy Inspector-General of Police come to the defence of the Ruling Party because they have seen that it is losing support. That officer even said that RTSA should just ignore the law because it is making the PF unpopular. Is he in order to defend the popularity of the PF and not to enforce the law? This is the degeneration of levels of professionalism. The police officers in this country are now losing integrity at a very fast rate, coupled with the fact that they are associated with corruption.

Mr Chairperson, I am trying to figure out the wisdom of the ministry under debate, which is the Ministry of Home Affairs to enter into a contract to spend K220 million to put cameras on the streets as a security measure, when anybody without any detailed attention to security surveys would know that larger amounts of crime actually take place in high density residential areas such as Chibolya, Chawama, Kalingalinga and Ng’ombe. Why would someone want to put security cameras here instead of employing more police officers, and buying vehicles for police officers to increase their patrol and increase security around vulnerable areas? I think that this ministry which is in charge of maintaining law and order should do some soul searching at ministry level. The police officers as professionals in maintaining law and order should do some soul searching. They are not there to be vuvuzelas of the PF. They are not there to serve the interests of the PF. They are there to serve the interests of the nation. When we see that the police officers are serving the interests of everybody, we are going to support them, including supporting their budget in this House.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Lungu): Mr Chairperson, I thank you. 

Sir, I will start by commenting on the issues raised by the hon. Member of Parliament for Kabompo West who talked mainly about the conditions in our prison. I must admit that the conditions in our prisons are pretty bad. It is for this reason that we have embarked on a serious attempt to complete the projects which our friends in the MMD embarked on of refurbishing prisons and constructing new ones. As I said in my statement, we quickly completed the construction of the Mwembeshi Maximum Prison. We are also working hard to complete the construction of other prisons in the country.

Mr Chairperson, there is also inadequate food in prisons. I mentioned in my policy statement that we have set up a milling plant in Kabwe. 

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Can I have order on my left!

Mr Lungu: Sir, we have a bit more funding from the Ministry of Finance to improve our farming effort so that there is balanced nutrition in the prison facilities. Everyone is a potential prisoner. It is for that reason that we are, in fact, embarking on serious efforts to refurbish our prisons. We must bear in mind the fact that we have limited resources available because we are competing with other needs such as schools and hospitals. 

Sir, the Ministry of Finance uses its best judgement to distribute resources. We pray that the ministry keeps on increasing our allocation so that we are able to meet our needs. We also must be aware that if we provide too much luxury in prisons, we will probably not discourage people from breaking the law. So, we will try to improve the well being of our prisoners, but will not do it to the point that we lose the objective of keeping people in prison.

Mr Chairperson, an hon. Member also talked about the morale amongst our prison staff. The correct position is that we have done a lot more for both inmates and prison officers such that presently, the morale is very high. I do not need to emphasise that point. A visit to any of the facilities will show you instantly that the people there are, indeed, happier than they were before. 

Sir, the hon. Member for Nalikwanda, Prof. Lungwangwa, talked about what he termed as the withering away of the authority of Zambian police officers. He also said that the police are scared of the PF cadres. I must point out that we have a duty to support our men and women in uniform. I do not think it is the PF policy to encourage lawlessness.

Sir, with regard to the recent incident which happened in Lusaka, I met the Inspector-General of Police to assure her that the President wants her not to live any stone unturned in her investigations. I told her not to let anyone interfere with the investigations. I think some of you who had a privilege of listening to Radio Phoenix this morning, heard my Deputy, Hon. Kampyongo, talk at length about this order. 

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Member of Parliament for Nalikwanda also said that people are being abducted in full view of the police. I have not received such a report in the recent past. So, I think it is one of the things which they have come up with in order to gain political mileage.

Sir, I think it is not correct to say that our police watch careless drivers or law breakers on the highway. I have seen policemen and officers from RTSA doing their best to make sure that they bring culprits to book. There may be situations where does probably, an incident escapes them. This does not to mean that they are doing that out of a deliberate desire not to enforce the law.

Mr Chairperson, I have also heard this afternoon of the PF cadres fighting in streets and markets among themselves. Apart from the reported incidents which we have taken care of, none, so far, have been dealt with in any other manner apart from that which is prescribed by the law.  I know that the police are still investigating the matters which surrounded the death which occurred in Chelston. I do also know for a fact that it was only one person who lost his life. However, due to reckless reporting by some private media institutions, there have been falsehoods peddled that two, three or four people died and that the police are doing nothing about what happened.

Sir, one life lost is too much. It is irresponsible for media houses to tell the nation that five, four, three or two people died when that was not the case. I have since engaged the hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting to ensure that such media houses are censored. If they persist in doing the wrong thing, measures should be taken to ensure that they are no longer part of the media fraternity.

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Mr Lungu: Mr Chairperson, the Ministry of Home Affairs and police are in charge of security.

Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Lungu: Sir, the ministry makes sure that the police are not hampered or hindered in any way in carrying out its duties. If there is any politician, be it from the Ruling Party or the Opposition, who thinks he can take advantage of his position to inhibit or restrain the police from doing that which is right, as long as I remain Minister of Home Affairs, I am afraid that such a person is in for a rude shock.

Mr Chairperson, professionalism in the police is pursued daily. We are always searching for truth so that at the end of the day, only those who deserve to be taken to prison are taken. 

Sir, as a lawyer, I learnt that it is better to send one criminal back home than send nine innocent people to jail. Several people think that by putting pressure on the police, they will get them to solve their personal battles. The police should be above manipulation.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lungu: Mr Chairperson, the hon. Member of Parliament who is a professor said that Cabinet is part of home affairs. Actually, it is home affairs which is part of Cabinet. Cabinet is not part of home affairs.

Sir, the hon. Member of Parliament for Kalomo Central, Mr Muntanga, was quite hilarious in his submission. I will not be hilarious when responding to what he said because I do not have that gift.

Laughter

Mr Lungu: Mr Chairperson, we have an establishment of about 14,000 policemen currently. These people are spread out in the country …

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order, on my left.

Mr Muntanga: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mutanga: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Minister of Home Affairs in order to say that my debate was hilarious and that I am a comedian when I raised serious issues about the police? Is he in order to compare me with Ukwa, and yet, what I raised are serious issues of segregation?

Laughter

The Chairperson: Order!

I have a problem in making a ruling because I must admit, I was trying to understand in which context the hon. Minister used the word ‘hilarious.’ If the hon. Minister meant that Hon. Muntanga’s debate was hilarious, then he was not in order. However, I do not recall him comparing Hon. Muntanga to Ukwa. 

Laughter{mospagebreak}

Mr Lungu: Mr Chairperson, Hon. Muntanga said that the establishment should be about 34,000 police officers. He is quite right. The distribution of police officers countrywide is done by the command. It prioritises the areas which are in serious need. Those who think that they do not have enough police officers can make a case to justify the need for more police officers. In areas where there is a lot of tranquility, one or two policemen can handle the situation.

Sir, Hon. Muntanga also talked about the need for the recruitment of police to have a national character. I wish to assure this august House that the recruitment of police officers has a national character. Hon. Muntanga also alleged that out of ten commanding officers, six are from one province.

Mr Chairperson, when we talk about issues of tribalism, we need to be careful. Some names can lead one into believing that he is dealing with a person of a particular ethnic group when in fact he is not. I was laughing when I was talking to the hon. Minister of Finance a while ago. I was asking him where he comes from because we have names like Chikwanda in the Eastern Province, in Mfuwe area, Lundazi and even Malawi. For me, a name is not indicative of where one comes from. I think we need to do a bit more work in getting to know what constitutes ethnicism because some names are misleading.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Lungu: Sir, some names may make you come up with wrong conclusions.

Mr Chairperson, Hon. Muntanga had a very important point when he stated that roadblocks are important, but should be used sparingly.

Mr Mweetwa: On point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Chairperson, you have ruled several times in this House that the statements we make must be factual and devoid of innuendoes and speculation. The people from the ministries are in attendance so as to give accurate information to hon. Ministers.

Sir, is the hon. Minister in order to speculate about the issue which Hon. Muntanga raised when the Police Command is here to give him information so that he can inform this House accurately? Is he in order to dwell on speculations? I need your serious ruling. 

The Chairperson: What I deduced from what the hon. Minister said was that there were certain names which can be seen to be from a particular province when they are not. I think that was the general statement he was making.

Mr Lungu: Mr Chairperson, I know that some issues are very sensitive because the truth hurts.

Sir, we should endeavour to use roadblocks sparingly because they tend to be an inconvenience to the people. I believe that police take that into account when they set up roadblocks. They do not want to inconvenience people, but believe that it is in the best interest of the Zambian populace to put up certain roadblocks. 

Mr Chairperson, the promotion prospects in the Zambia Police Force are not hampered by one’s background, but are always on merit. All the people who have risen to senior ranks have done so on merit. 

Hon. Opposition Member: Question!

Mr Lungu: Sir, I would also like to commend Hon. Munkombwe for bringing to the fore the need to …

Hon. Opposition Member: Munkombwe?

Mr Lungu: Sir, I meant Hon. Request Muntanga. I mix up the two names. I beg your pardon. 

Laughter 

The Chairperson: Order!

It was a slip of the tongue, he meant Hon. Muntanga.

Mr Lungu: Sir, I thank Hon. Muntanga for underscoring the need for community policing. I think we have benefited a lot from this effort and are going to make sure that the community continues to help us by making the necessary resources available. 

Mr Chairperson, there is nothing sinister in policemen collecting pangas. However, there is everything sinister in policemen leaving the pangas with the people.

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Mr Lungu: Sir, since I cannot be everywhere all the time, hon. Members should tell me in good time whenever they see police officers do the wrong thing. It will not do for them to come to the House to tell me about the things that they saw happening some time back. I might find it difficult to follow up such issues.

Sir, Hon. Muntanga also talked about deportation … 

Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised. However, I wish to state that we have three items that we have been considering since Friday. We are dragging. I know it is not correct for me to ask the hon. Minister speaking to summarise. However, hon. Ministers at times may have to consider summarising instead of making comments on all that was said. This will be the last point of order on the person debating.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, during his discourse, the hon. Minister belaboured the point that he was actually in charge of the Ministry of Home Affairs and the police. 

Sir, the hon. Minister, like the public, is aware that one of the people who was injured in the Chelston fight indicated that ….

The Chairperson: Order!

This is where we come in to guide. It would be better if you came to your point of order instead of debating. I am sure you are capable of quickly linking your point of order to something which happened. 

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister said he is unaware that one of the people who is probably still in hospital told the whole country that his fight with the Secretary-General of the PF was not over. Is he in order to indicate that he is unaware of this state of affairs?

The Chairperson: Hon. Minister, as you debate, please, take that point of order into account.

Mr Lungu: Mr Chairperson, I want to be factual in my debate. I was reacting to Hon. Muntanga’s assertion that the police picked the pangas and not the people who had them. I said that I was not fully aware of what transpired. That is where I ended. 

    Now, that I am told that time is a constraint and that I should wind up, I will be very…

The Chairperson: Order, hon. Minister.

 It was just by way of guidance. You are not being ordered to cut short your debate. I am not stopping you from saying what you wanted to say.

Mr Lungu: Mr Chairperson, I will try to summarise my debate. We are taking care of issues to do with uniforms for the Zambia Police Force. In the past two years, we have been acquiring new uniforms and suits for our non-uniformed officers. Issues to do with infrastructure have been devolved to the provinces. We are going to carry out rehabilitation works in police camps and police cells through the provincial offices. The same goes for operations. We will try to maintain public order at provincial level. 

Mr Chairperson, we issued a ministerial statement here on the issue of land grabbing. I think it is on record that we do not tolerate such kind of things. The Secretary-General of the PF did issue a circular in which members of the party were advised to distance themselves from this kind of thing. It is not a PF policy for its members to grab people’s properties or land. 

Sir, the need for a police post at Liuwa was also discussed. We are constructing police posts countrywide. I promise to bring an Infrastructure Development Plan to the House which I will lay on the Table. Hon. Members from areas which are really pressed can go to the Inspector-General of Police and make their needs known. In fact, let me take advantage of this opportunity to point out that the police posts usually are requested for by the communities. If the communities feel that their situation is so unsafe that they need police presence, they should visit the local police who will advise them on how to proceed. The same goes for Lukulu East, Lukulu West and Mitete. Mitete is a new district. We have an ambitious programme with regard to infrastructure development for the new districts. 

Mr Chairperson, I think I have covered everything. If I have left out certain issues accidentally, since the House is still sitting, hon. Members are free to raise them through Questions. I wish to thank my colleagues on the other side for having supported this budget.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

VOTE 11/01 – Zambia Police – Ministry of Home Affairs – Headquarters – K266,848,713).

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Unit 1, Programme 4008, Activity 001 – Integrity Committee. It is said that integrity is the concept of consistence of actions, values, methods, measures, principles, expectations as well as outcomes. Under the Integrity Committee, in 2013, there was K146,250 and at this juncture, I see no allocation for 2014. I would like to know why.

The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Kampyongo): Mr Chairperson, the activity in question has been moved to Unit 29, Legal and Professional Standards under Programme 4008 – Cross Cutting Issues.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chisanga (Mkushi South): Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Unit 1, Programme 4002, Activity 012 – Labour Day Celebrations – Nil. In 2013, there was K51,586, but now, there is nothing. Why is there no allocation for 2014? 

Sir, I also seek clarification on Programme 4002, Activity 017 – Police Day – K20,200. Is this K20,200 enough for the whole country because what I know is that we have a  number of police officers countrywide?

Mr Chairperson, I also seek clarification on Programme 4002, Activity 040 – Youth Day Celebrations – Nil. In 2013, there was K38,328 and in 2014, there is no allocation. On Activity 055 – Secretary’s Day, in 2013, there was K10,793, but  in 2014, there is nothing. Why is that so?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, there is no allocation for Unit 1, Programme 4002, Activity 012 – Labour Day Celebrations – Nil because we want to focus on our core functions. As for the K20,200 allocated for Activity 017 – Police Day, it is worth noting that we have decentralised the allocations. The provinces are catered for individually. Under the same programme, there is no money allocated to Activity 040 – Youth Day Celebrations – Nil and On Activity 055 – Secretary’s Day – Nil because we want to concentrate on our core functions.

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Mufalali (Senanga): Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Unit 1, Programme 4001, Activity 003 – Office Administration – K52,540. You will note that there is a serious reduction from K101,900 this year to K52,540 next  year. What has necessitated the reduction? 

Sir, I also seek clarification on Programme 4002, Activity 010 – International Women’s Day Celebrations – K17,133. There is also a reduction from K41,586 this year to K17,133 next year. What has necessitated this reduction?

Sir, I also seek clarification on Unit 3, Programme 4013, Activity 046 – Divisional Inspections – K189,000. There is an increase from K172,000 this year to K189,00 next year. Why do we have this increase?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, under Programme 4001, Activity 003 – Office Administration, we have a reduction in the allocation. The reduction is due to the sum of K49,360 which has been moved and incorporated in Programme 4052, Procurement Management, Activity 006 – Procurement of Office Equipment and Furniture under Unit 16. 

Sir, there is a reduction in the allocation to Programme 4002, Activity 010 – International Women’s Day Celebrations – K17,133I because we want to focus the resources on our core functions. 

Mr Chairperson, Unit 3, Programme 4013, Activity 046 – Divisional Inspections – K189,000 is meant for conducting inspections which will increase next year.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nkombo: Sir, I am not very satisfied with the explanation the hon. Minister has given on my issue under Programme 4008. If I heard him right, he said that the allocation to the Integrity Committee has been moved to Activity 002 − Legal and Professional Standards – Nil. If that is where he said he has moved it to, I wish to tell him that there is no allocation there. Why is that so?

 Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, the explanation I gave is that, we have consolidated certain activities. So, the Integrity Committee will still meet because its composition draws members from various organisations.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Pande (Kasempa): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4012, Activity 183 – Rehabilitation of Armouries – K174,038. I would like to find out what kind of rehabilitation will cost the same amount next year as it did this year.

Mr Chairperson, may I also have clarification on Programme 4040, Activity 002 – Procurement of Traffic Equipment –  K1,000,000. I would like to know why the allocation for the procurement of equipment next year is the same as the one for this year.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, Programme 4012, Activity 183 – Rehabilitation of Armouries – K174,038 is meant for the ongoing rehabilitation of the armouries. Since we shall be procuring a lot of equipment for the police, it is cardinal that we continue to rehabilitate and secure the armouries.

Mr Chairperson, with regard to the procurement of the traffic equipment, those that have traveled on the Lusaka/Kabwe Road and the Airport Road may have seen the signage equipment that we are putting on the checkpoints. That is the type of equipment that we are procuring for traffic management.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Lufuma (Kabompo West): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4071, Activity 005 – Production of Corporate Materials – K202,000. I would like to know what new activities which have been incorporated in this activity called production of corporate materials to necessitate the quadrupling of the budget from K60,000 to K202,000. I think it is exponentially high. So, I would like to get an explanation on that one.

Mr Chairperson, I would also like to get clarification on the allocation to Programme 4071, Activity 012 – News Gathering –  K105,259. I would like to find out why it has doubled from K58,450 to K105,259.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, yes, indeed, there is an increment on the allocation to Activity 005 which is under Programme 4071. This is due to the increased number of corporate materials that we intend to produce for all the provinces.

Mr Chairperson, as for the next activity, in fact, the allocation is not even enough since we are trying to scale up the activity of news gathering.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr L. J. Ngoma (Sinda): Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 4002, Activity 012 – Labour Day Celebrations – Nil. The hon. Deputy Minister indicated that they have done away with this event because it is not a core function. May he be categorical and state whether on this particular day, Labour Day, we will not see the police officers taking part in the march past because there is no allocation for the event. 

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, the hon. Member may wish to note that our participation is in different forms. We provide policing services to these events. We also always provide a brass band in front of the people that are marching. Such activities fall under operations. 

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4058, Activity 019 – Maintenance of Equipment – Nil. This year we had K36,000 that was allocated for the maintenance of equipment for the police force but, for next year, there is no allocation for this activity.

Mr Chairperson, may I also have clarification on Programme 4035, Activity 003 – Logistics Co-ordination – K290,999. This year, K88,400 was allocated for this activity and next year, K290,999 has been allocated for this activity. Why is this so?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, as for Programme 4058, Activity 019 – Maintenance of Equipment – Nil, I do not know where Hon. Mutelo is looking because …

Mr Mutelo rose.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, I stand to be guided because under …

The Chairperson: He wants clarification on Programme 4058, Activity 019 and Programme 4035, Activity 003. 

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, I will start by responding to the question on Programme 4035, Activity 003 – Logistics Co-ordination – K290,999. The allocation for next year is not even enough because we want to scale up activities in that area. However, we are still happy that we have been given the increment.

Sir, Programme 4058, Activity 019 – Maintenance of Equipment – Nil has been catered for under Activity 018 – Procurement of Vehicles – K1,5000,000 of the same programme. That is why we even have an increment under this budget line. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mtolo (Chipata Central): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4003, Activity 017 – Specialised Training – K101,535. May I know why such an important activity has had a budget reduction rather than an increase.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, the reduction is due to the reduction in the number of officers that we intend to send for specialised training. We have done quite a lot this year and so we want to reduce the number of officers to be sent for specialised training next year. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Milambo (Mwembeshi): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4001, Activity 009 – Utility Bills – K12,000. The budget for 2014 has been reduced by 50 per cent. May I know why. 

Sir, I would also like clarification on Programme 4035, Activity 004 – Replacement Parts – K28,564. For us to appreciate this budget, we would like to know what types of parts are supposed to be replaced.
 
Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, I will start with the latter part of the question. 

Sir, please bear with me, I will not delve into the mechanical description of the parts. We intend to procure spares which are required to fix certain vehicles that have not been attended to this year. 

Sir, we have reduced the budget for Programme 4001, Activity 009 – Utility Bills – K12,000 because most of the bills were settled last year and some incorporated onto the pay slips. 

Vote 11/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 11/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote11/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 11/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 11/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote/11/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

VOTE 11/07 – (Zambia Police – Ministry of Home Affairs – Paramilitary – K78,697,172).

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4001, Activity 034 – Operations for the Institution. Why is there no money allocated for 2014?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, this activity has now been catered for under Programme 4031, Activity 043 – Public Order Maintenance – K454,049. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4031, Activity 043 – Public Order Maintenance – K454,049. Why has this budget increased from K253,700 to K454,049?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, as I indicated, we are focusing more resources on the core functions. Our hon. Members have been complaining that our police have not been able to effectively react to certain disorderly situations. We, therefore, need to make sure that we focus our resources on this core function of the paramilitary police.

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Livune (Katombola): Sir, may I have clarification on Programme 4001, Activity 009 – Utility Bills – K377,360. Even if these bills might have been settled, the reduction on this budget is way too much. In fact, it is unbelievable that there can be such a reduction in budgeting, especially that the subsidies …

The Chairperson: Order!

I think that what you want to know is why there is such a reduction on this budget line. If you want to say a lot of things, we may not finish quickly. 
 
Mr Livune: Yes, Sir, the reduction is abnormal.  

The Chairperson: Hon. Minister, you may respond. 

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, the reduction is as a result of the introduction of allowances for water and electricity which have been consolidated in basic salaries for officers. The small allocation that is here is for wiping out the outstanding bills that were accrued before this was done. 

Mr Chairperson, I thank you. 

Vote 11/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

VOTE 11/08 – (Zambia Police – Ministry of Home Affairs – Airport Division – K28,642,356).

Mr Chisanga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4012, Activity 043 – Rehabilitation of Police Camps – K104,000, Activity 044 – Rehabilitation of Police Stations – K104,000 and Activity 189 – Maintenance of Buildings – K56,382. 

Sir, for 2013, the allocations for the three activities were K103,000, K103,000 and K40,000, respectively. For next year, the figures have …

The Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.

[THE CHAIRPESON OF COMMITTEES in the
 Chair]

Mr Chisanga: Mr Chairperson, I need clarification on Programme 4012, Activity 043 – Rehabilitation of Police Camps – K104,000, Activity 044 – Rehabilitation of Police Stations – K 104,000 and Activity 189 – Maintenance of Buildings – K56,382. Why are the figures for this year the same as next year’s. I expected the figures to rise due to the depreciation of the kwacha.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, despite us wanting increments in the areas which Hon. Chisanga has referred to, we are mindful of the Government’s funding constraints.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Milambo: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 4035, Activity 010 – Maintenance of Vehicles – K148,720. Why such a huge increment? Is this money going to be used to insure the vehicles?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, the fleet of vehicles has increased.

I thank you, Sir.

The Chairperson: The other part of the question was about insurance. Is it covered in this figure?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, insurance has been taken care of under Headquarters.

I thank you.

Mr Miyanda (Mapatizya): Mr Chairperson, may I get a clarification on Programme 4023, Activity 036 – Station imprest – K131,715. What has caused the huge increase?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, the increase has been necessitated by the fact that we need to scale up certain operations.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Lubezhi (Namwala): Mr Chairperson, may I get clarification on Programme 4000, Activity 003 – Salaries Division III – K 293,533. Why has this division been catered for?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, this is a division which previously catered for the Classified Daily Employees (CDEs).

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 4052, Activity 006 –Procurement of Office Equipment and Furniture – K164,732. What has necessitated this huge increase?

Mr Kamyongo: Mr Chairperson, what has necessitated the increment is that we are going to replace the old furniture.

I thank you.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Chairperson, my question is a follow up to the question that was raised by Hon. Lubezhi on the issue of Division III officers. Are we saying that there will be no CDEs in the Government, but only officers?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, the salary scale has changed because of restructuring process which took place.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 11/08 ordered to stand part of the estimates.

Vote 11/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 11/10 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Mr Chairperson: Please, if you want to indicate, do so in good time.

Mr Lufuma: But I did indicate, Sir.

The Chairperson: No. The time I checked, there was nobody who was indicating. I had already put the question when you stood up. Please, indicate early.

VOTE 11/11 – (Zambia Police – Ministry Home Affairs- Central Province – K51,691,445).

Mr Lufumu: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4000, Wages – Nil. Are we doing away with wages? Are the CDEs no longer going to be employed?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, yes, we are doing away with the CDEs.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 11/11 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 11/12 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 11/13 – (Zambia Police - Ministry of Home Affairs – Western Province – K33,504,133).

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4012, Activity 189 – Maintenance of Building – K36,215. There is a paltry K36,215 allocated to this activity. Why has the maintenance of structures in the Western Province been given this little money?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, I appreciate the concern raised by the hon. Member. However, if he has observed, this is the first time we are allocating some money to this activity. Furthermore, we shall see how far the money will take us so that it can help us to plan better for the future. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4002, Activity 022 – Traditional Ceremonies – K40,000. This activity includes the Kuomboka Ceremony. There was an increase in the allocation this year because it stood at K97,764. However, next year, the activity has been allocated K40,000. Why is that so?

Laughter

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, I would request my colleague not to be so emotional.

Mr Musukwa: Fwaka!

Laughter

The Chairperson: Just answer the question instead of wasting time.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo: Sir, some of the funding for the activity in question has been catered for elsewhere.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Vote 11/13 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 11/14 – (Zambia Police – Ministry of Home Affairs – Eastern Province – K31,680,497).

Mr Mtolo: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4012, Activity 044 – Rehabilitation of Police Stations – K200,000. I wonder why there has been an allocation of only K200,000 and yet the situation is that police stations are so dilapidated that we are actually forced to use the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) money to repair them. Why have we budgeted so little money for such an activity?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, we certainly would have loved to have more resources allocated to this activity, but we are constrained by the limited resources availed to us.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4002, Activity 022 – Traditional Ceremonies – K35,880. There has been a reduction to the allocation to the Eastern Province for that activity.

The Chairperson: That is what we are discussing now.

Laughter

Mr Mutelo: Sir, why did they make ceremonies part of their internal operations?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, in my earlier response, I did indicate that operations vary. There are some operations that will be undertaken by the police during ceremonies. 

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Vote 11/14 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 11/15 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 11/16 – (Zambia Police – Ministry of Home Affairs – North-Western Province – K26,590,876).

Mr Lufuma: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4052, Activity 012 – Office Administration (Procurement) – Nil. I am from the North-Western Province where police do not have equipment. How come you have not allocated any funds for the purchasing of office equipment for such provinces?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, this is also one of the activities which is going to be undertaken by the Headquarters.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Pande: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Unit 04, Programme 4023 – Crime Detection and Prevention, Activity 031 – Stable Management and Horse Patrols – K46,350,000. I wonder where these stables are in the province because we have never seen horses there.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, the hon. Member has not seen the stables physically in the province because that is when we want to establish them. Once the procurement of the horses is done and stables are set up, the hon. Member will be able to see them physically.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Ms Lubezhi: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4031, Activity 043 – Public Order Maintenance – K306,642. In the other provinces there has been a gradual increment, but for the North-Western Province, it is too much. What has necessitated this?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, the increment, of course, might not be uniform because operations vary from one province to another. There is a need for us to intensify operations in the North-Western Province due to a number of factors.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

Mr Lufuma: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4052, Activity 012 – Office Administration (Procurement) – Nil. The hon. Minister said that this activity has been moved to Headquarters. May I know why they are moving activities which were previously in the activity-based budget (ABB) to the Headquarters? 

The Chairperson: You see, you had asked that question and now you are back to it. Anyway, hon. Minister, you may answer.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, I also find it difficult to respond to the same question, which I responded to earlier.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, why has the allocation for Programme 4023, Activity 009 – Intelligence Gathering – K76,055 for next year just been increased slightly when the increment for  Programme 4031, Activity 043 – Public Order Maintenance – K306,642 is significant?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, these are totally different activities. I did indicate that there is need for the Public Order Maintenance to have more resources than any other activity. So, we could have loved to have a little bit more money, even for Intelligence Gathering, but we also have to be mindful of the resources which we have.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 11/16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 11/17 – (Zambia Police – Ministry of Home Affairs – Southern Province – K50,152,151).

Mr Miyanda: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4012, Activity 043 – Rehabilitation of Police Camps – K100,000. The allocation for 2013 was K100,000 and the allocation for 2014 has remained the same. The Southern Province has some of the most deplorable police camps such as Zimba and Kalomo. Why is there no increment to this activity?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, I agree with the hon. Member that the Southern Province has some dilapidated police camps. It is the same with all the other provinces. That is why the allocations to this activity are more or less the same. We would have loved to allocate more resources to this activity. However, since the activity is on-going, we are trying to see how much we can do with the limited resources.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lufuma: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4052, Activity 006 – Procurement of Office Equipment and Furniture – K272,230. This Government is preaching decentralisation, but from the Budget, I can see centralisation. According to the hon. Minister, the Government is removing certain activities and placing them under Headquarters. That is centralisation. So why has the same activity in the North-Western Province been taken to Headquarters, but in the Southern Province it has remained at provincial level?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, there are certain variations in the way we do things. The equipment that we intend to buy for the North-Western Province is catered for under Headquarters. It should not be …

Hon. UPND Member interjected.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, I seek your protection.

The Chairperson: Please, give him chance to answer the question, otherwise I will move to the next Vote.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, you can see that this allocation is like a new activity for the Southern Province. It has never had such an allocation. So, that also justifies this allocation because in the North-Western Province, there was an activity which was provided for this year. So, there is no discrimination at all.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Ms Lubezhi: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on 4013, Activity 028 – Station Inspections – K74,855. Seeing that these police stations already have police officers, is this activity really necessary? If so, who carries out these inspections? 

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, yes, there are officers at these police stations, but we are also talking about rehabilitating the facilities there. So, we need people to go and inspect the status of the police facilities. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lufuma: Mr Chairperson, I am sorry to take you back. However, could I know what the ministry’s policy on procurement is? Is procurement going to be done by Headquarters or the provinces?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, it varies. We are decentralising as you can see from the way we are allocating resources to provinces. However, for the purpose of uniformity, there are certain disparities that we need to bridge up. So, there is still a need for the Headquarters to support some provinces in certain areas.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Ms Lubezhi: Mr Chairperson, in responding to my question, the hon. Minister said police stations are inspected and assessed before rehabilitation works take place. Is the hon. Minister, then, telling us that when the rehabilitation works are carried out, no inspections are carried out?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, even though I did not get the question clearly, I will still try to answer it. I did indicate that the inspections cater for the monitoring of the operations at different stations, other than just inspecting the infrastructure. The inspections vary.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Vote 11/17 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

  VOTE 11/18 – (Zambia Police – Ministry of Home Affairs – Muchinga Province – K44,212,865).

Mr Lufuma: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4052, Activity 006 – Procurement of Office Equipment and Furniture – K150,000. I have been told that the policy varies in accordance to the province. In the 2013 Budget, the North-Western Province had no funds allocated to this activity. This year, the province has been allocated some funds to procure office equipment and furniture since it did not procure such things last year. In 2013, Muchinga Province was allocated funds for this activity and is still being given the money to procure at provincial level. Could I know why the North-Western Province was not allocated these funds? I would like to know what criterion has been used to vary the policy.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, if the hon. Member followed me earlier, he would have heard me say that for uniformity purposes, there are those areas which require intervention from the Headquarters. So, the policy of decentralisation still stands. I do not think I will add more to what I have said.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Vote 11/18 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Please, give me a chance to do my work properly. You are making noise and I cannot concentrate.

Vote 15/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/10 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/11 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/12 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 15/13 − (Ministry of Home Affairs − Western Province − Prisons and Reformatories − K1,433,772).

Mr Mutelo: Sir, there is a repetition of a programme on pages 230 and 231. On page 230, there is Programme 4054, Activity 001 – Chaplaincy – K60,000. The same programme is on page 231 …

The Chairperson: I think you are asking about a page we have not reached yet. We are under Vote …

Mr Mutelo: Why is this programme appearing twice?

The Chairperson: Order!

Why are you continuing to ask a question when I am speaking?

Mr M. H. Malama: Fwaka.

The Chairperson: You are not directing yourself to the right Vote. We are under Vote 15/13. 

Vote 15/13 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Please, on my right, you are disturbing me. You are aware that working with figures requires concentration and, therefore, if you disturb me, we cannot move forward. It is unfortunate that the noise is actually coming from the Executive’s side.

Vote 15/14 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/15 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/17 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/18 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/19 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/20 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/21 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/22 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/23 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Mr Musukwa and Mr Masumba were talking loudly while seated.

Mr Chairperson: Order!

Can you two hon. Deputy Ministers leave the House.

Interruptions

Mr Musukwa and Mr Masumba remained seated.

The Chairperson: Please, I have decided. Can you leave the House. If you remain seated, we will not move on. Get out of the House now, otherwise I am not going to proceed.

Mr Masumba: Sir, it is the people behind that were talking.

Interruptions 

Mr Musukwa and Mr Masumba left the Assembly Chamber.

Vote 15/24 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/25 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/26 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/27 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/28 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/29 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

  VOTE 15/30 – (Ministry of Home Affairs – Western Province – Immigration Department – K841,682).

  Mr Mutelo: Mr Speaker, may I have clarification on Programme 4002, Activity 012 – Labour Day Celebrations – K4,000. There is a reduction of K3,000 as compared to this year’s allocation. May I also have clarification on Programme 4031, Activity 006 – Officers Accommodation – Nil. While there is an allocation of K180,000 this year, there is nothing for next year when we need even more officers’ accommodation in Mitete. May I know why.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, under the allocation for Programme 4002, Activity 012 – Labour Day Celebrations – K4,000, there is a decrease of K3,000 due to the relocation of resources to Programme 4023 – Crime Detection and Prevention.

Mr Chairperson, as regards Programme 4031, Activity 006 – Officers’ Accommodation – Nil, this activity has been abolished in 2014 because the Government has introduced an accommodation allowance for officers through the payroll system.

I thank you Sir.

Vote 15/31 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/32 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/33 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/34 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/35 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/36 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/37 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/38 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/39 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/40 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/41 ordered to stand part of the estimates.

Vote 15/42 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/43 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/44 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/46 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/47 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/48 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/49 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/50 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/51 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/52 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 16/01 (Drug Enforcement Commission - Drug Enforcement Commission – Headquarters – K59,026,162).

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4002, Activity 012 – Labour Day Celebrations – K5,007.  I have an issue wherever this particular programme appears. 

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs informed the House that under the Zambia Police Force, they have done away with Labour Day Celebrations because they want to concentrate on the core business of the institution. I want to find out why they are not concentrating on the core business of the Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC). Why should the officers of DEC celebrate Labour Day when the officers of other security wings of the Government have been denied the right to do so?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, if the hon. Member has looked at the figures, he will notice that there is a significant reduction in the allocation and the difference of K5,506 has been moved to Programme 4020, Activity 006 – Community Awareness and Rehabilitation of Drug Addicts – K510,000. Therefore, we have moved part of the resources that were going to this programme to the core business of DEC.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4002, Activity 012 – Labour Day Celebrations – K5,007. The question was specific, and had to do with principle. Under the allocation to the Zambia Police Force, the hon. Deputy Minister indicated, in no uncertain terms, that the only involvement that would be there would be the brass band, which will be drumming ahead of whoever is going to be marching. The DEC falls under the Ministry of Home Affairs. Why are they departing from the principle that they want to deal with their core business? Why provide for the DEC and not provide for the other security wings? That was the question.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, it is very clear that the functions of the Zambia Police Force and those of DEC are different in nature. There is no way we can expect that what applies to the Zambia Police Force automatically applies to DEC. Therefore, the distinction in operations is what has necessitated this difference.

I thank you, Sir.

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo (Mumbwa): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on the same Programme 4002, Activity 012 – Labour Day Celebrations – K5,007. The issue on the same programme has to do with the principle in terms of core business, which was explained by the hon. Deputy Minister as the reason for not allocating funds to the celebrations. Since DEC has its core business, why is it that there is this variance in the same ministry?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, for the sake of clarity, I will repeat what I said earlier. If you look at the provision that was there last year for this activity, you will notice that there was K10,513. Now, because of focusing resources on the core business, we have allocated part of that amount to Programme 4020, Activity 006 - Community Awareness and Rehabilitation of Drug Addicts – K510,000. This is one of the core functions of DEC. Like I stated earlier, DEC and the Zambia Police Force undertake different operations and their functions are totally different.

I thank you, Sir.  

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, …

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Minister in order to continue contradicting the policy direction of the Government and to fail to answer questions which we are raising after he made an explanation to the nation that they will concentrate on the core business of the different institutions under the ministry? Why is it that for the police, the ministry has not provided for any Labour Day Celebrations, but for the other security wings it has done so? We just want an answer.

The Chairperson: Order!

In order to have that issue clarified, I request the hon. Minister now to say something, if he can. Are you able to do that, hon. Minister?

Mr Lungu: Yes, Sir.

Mr Chairperson, we said that the involvement of the police in Labour Day Celebrations is of an operational nature. This means that at the Labour Day Celebrations, the police will prevent crime and provide the brass band. As for DEC, it will participant in the celebrations. That is the difference.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister categorically said that the police will focus on its core business in 2014. There could be drug traffickers on the day of the Labour Day celebrations. Why will the DEC officers who are supposed to look for drug traffickers not focus on their core business on that day just like the police officers?

The Chairperson: Order!

I thought that he has just explained why it is so. We may not be satisfied with the explanation but, at least, it has been given.

Mr Lufuma: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4020, Activity 014 – Kennel Management – K278,564. In the first instance, I would like to know what Kennel Management is.

Hon. Members: Dogs!

Mr Lufuma: Sir, the budget line last year was K45,000 for that activity. Next year, to take care of the dogs, I am told, the budget has exponentially gone up to K278,564. Why is that so?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 4020, Activity 014 – Kennel Management – K278,564, the increase has been necessitated by the need to procure more dogs. We need to prepare kennels where we are going to keep the dogs. We need them in deferent locations, like the airport and other border points.

I thank you, Sir

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4037, Activity 009 – Strategic – K30, 279. This year, you were given K39,948 and in 2014, you want K30,279. What kind of a strategic plan is this which we keep spending money on?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, if the hon. Member has noticed, there has been a reduction in the allocation. This means that the report has been finalised. What is being worked on is the implementation.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 16/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 16/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 16/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 16/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 16/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 16/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 16/07 – (Drug Enforcement Commission – North-Western Province – K421,765).

The Minister of Finance (Mr Chikwanda): Mr Chairperson, I beg to move the following amendment: 

(i)    Under Unit 01 Human Resources and Administration, Programme: 4002 Events, Activity 055 Secretary’s Day, by the deletion of K3,289; and

(ii)     Under Unit 01 Human Resources and Administration, Programme: 4002 Events, Activity 041 World Anti-Drug Day, by the insertion of K3,289. 

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

Vote 16/07, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 16/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 16/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 16/10 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 16/11 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 13 – Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs – (K118,811,205).

The Minister of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs (Prof. Luo): Mr Chairperson, let me thank you for giving me an opportunity to deliver a policy debate for the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs. I would like to start with a preamble that during the colonisation and decolonisation process that led to Africa’s domination by European powers and, subsequently, independence from that domination, the role played by our people and traditional leaders should not be easily watered down the drain by anybody. Since then, traditional societies and their leadership have continued to be an integral part of our society even as we soar into the 21st Century. In Zambia, chiefs have continued to be the primary custodians and administrators of our people together with our traditional heritage.

Mr Chairperson, it is from this backdrop that the PF-led Government by His Excellency the President, Mr Michael Chilufya Sata, formed the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs in recognition of the cardinal role that traditional authorities play and continue to play in our society. At Independence, like many other African countries, Zambia was at the crossroads on the fate of traditional institutions in an independent Africa. Fortunately, our forefathers wisely carried forward the institution of chiefs into independent Zambia. Building on the foundation of the colonial masters, our traditional institutions and authorities played a major role in developing this country. Many other countries, namely Ghana, Nigeria, Uganda, Zimbabwe, South Africa, Namibia and Angola, to name a few, wisely decided to maintain the indigenous traditional structures. The institution throughout the breadth and length of Africa has been tasked alongside its historic prerogative of administering our people with the responsibility to spearhead development amongst its people in the countryside. This does not only bring to the fore issues regarding the evolution of power which we are now calling decentralisation which most African countries are targeting, but also recognises the important role which the institution has played in preserving the resources that we boast of, today, be it water, forests or land.

Sir, consequently, it will be irrational for anybody today, not to create a platform on which our traditional leaders and other people can be directly …

Mr Muntanga: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, I raise this point of order with a lot of concern. All the interruptions in this House are coming from the Back Benchers. Is Hon. Chitotela in order to leave his seat and join the Back Benchers?  He has been making noise throughout the afternoon. I do not know whether he wants to be demoted to the Back Bench. He is supposed to follow what we are doing because the Vote for the Ministry of Labour and Social Security will soon be debated. Is he in order to run away from his responsibility as hon. Deputy Minister and spend the whole afternoon gossiping? 

The Chairperson: You know, in this House, we have seen, on a number of occasions, people going to other places to consult. So, I think that he is in order as long as no noise is coming from the corner where he is.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: Can you continue, hon. Minister.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Prof. Luo: Mr Chairperson, before Mr Muntanga interrupted me, I was just making a very important point. Consequently, it will be …

Mr Nkombo: On a point of Order, Sir.

Laughter    

The Chairperson: No, I think that, in fairness, we have to let her finish her policy statement. 

Interruptions 

The Chairperson: Okay, l will give you that last point of order on the hon. Minister’s statement.

Mr Nkombo: Sir, the hon. Minister of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs has been in this House for a long time. Is she in order to address the hon. Member of Parliament for Kalomo Central Constituency as she just did when the Members’ Handbook states on page 24 that:

“as far as practicable, it is desirable that a Member should not be referred to by his name, but in some other suitable honorable way such as the “Hon. Member for … Constituency”, the Hon. Member representing … Constituency”, “the Hon. Member from …”: etc.”

Is she in order to mention his name in the manner that she did? I seek your serious ruling.

The Chairperson: The serious ruling is that, in the Committee and not in the plenary that is not really against the Standing Orders.

Continue, hon. Minister.

Pro Luo: Mr Chairperson, it would be irrational for anyone today not to create a platform on which our traditional leaders and their people can be directly heard and contribute to national development in line with our historic norms and vast practices. Arising from the foregoing, I wish to reiterate that my ministry will largely focus on the developmental transformation of our country. This will be attained through the direct participation of our traditional leaders. My ministry, therefore, will be a mouth piece through which our noble royal highnesses can contribute directly to the advancement of their areas.

Mr Chairperson, the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs is a Government institution that falls under the social sector of the national economy and is charged with the responsibility for the effective co-ordination and implementation of chiefs and traditional affairs, policy development, folklore and traditional ceremonies. We hope that once the ministry starts moving forward, we will be seen as an economic ministry. The ministry has also been charged with the responsibility of administration, preservation, conservation of national heritage, promotion of traditional crafts and tourism souvenirs, indigenous knowledge, oral tradition and village registration. Of note, is the fact that the ministry was established at a time that the country was experiencing a high disease burden, high poverty levels and poor access to services, especially health and education.  

Mr Chairperson, the ministry has also been overseeing the implementation of delegated functions and responsibilities by chiefdoms such as managing good governance and championing development in the chiefdoms with chiefs and village headmen supervising these developmental activities. 

Sir, in this regard, the ministry embarked on programmes intended to educate traditional leaders on Government policies for good governance and conflict resolution amongst the various cultural groupings. It has also supported various chiefdoms and cultural institutions financially as well as reviewed various chieftaincy and legal frameworks to conform to international best practices.

Mr Chairperson, the ministry has been, in the last year, primarily championing activities focused on the rural development of Zambia, through economic developmental activities in the various chiefdoms, hence contributing to a reduction of rural poverty. The ministry which was created in 2011 has rapidly grown, having a presence in the ten provinces and sixty-five districts with the exception of districts where there are no chiefs. 

Sir, with the current approved establishments standing at 1,005, the ministry continues to employ people at the ministry and in the districts. This is one ministry that is decentralised. Believe it or not, in no time, this will be the largest ministry in the Government of the Republic of Zambia …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Prof. Luo: … because it is the only ministry that interfaces with every ministry. The PF Government does recognise the fact that chieftaincy in Zambia is not only an indigenous traditional institution of governance, but can also contribute significantly to the socio-economic and political development of the country.

Mr Chairperson, the Government has identified this institution as one of the most important vehicles in the deliverance of services such as health, education and skills development to the people. Health and education are a prerequisite to wealth creation in Zambia, especially in rural areas. 

Sir, further, the role of traditional leaders will be appreciated by many of you when you start seeing the fruits of this ministry. The Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs will, therefore, continue to focus on programmes and activities that embrace chiefs in the governance of this country as custodians of peace, unity and security. I will bring a ministerial statement to this House on this programme.

Mr Chairperson, as custodians of our national cultural heritage and natural resources, the activities will ensure that chiefs spearhead rural development through the promotion of the cottage industry. The chiefs will also be the promoters of learning and the preservation of our culture, traditions and national heritage through the preservation of heritage sites, folklore, museums and traditional ceremonies. In fact, the mission statement of this ministry is to manage and promote traditional governance systems and chiefs affairs in order to preserve and converse Zambia’s cultural and national heritage and to contribute to rural development.

Sir, let me now share with the House the major achievements of 2013. I wish to inform this august House that the PF was voted in Government on the premise of job creation and poverty alleviation in the country.To this call, the ministry has established offices in districts. There are 1,009 jobs which are earmarked for staffing. Further, the ministry is currently implementing programmes directly related to poverty alleviation such as chiefdom development and the promotion of best practices amongst the people in order to challenge the hurdles of the 21st Century.

Mr Chairperson, what have we done under chiefdom development? The first thing was capacity building and exposure of the chiefs to what is happening around the world. 

Sir, we conducted four exchange programmes with not only ministries in charge of chiefs and traditional affairs in some other countries, but also where the cottage industry is booming. To this effect, chiefs were sent to the United Kingdom (UK), Namibia, Ghana and, as I speak, we have a team in China. Over the weekend, we will send another team to China.

Mr Muntanga: You have chiefs in China?

Dr Kaingu: That is a waste of money.

Prof. Luo: Sir, it is not a waste of money because the chiefs are learning about the cottage industry. In case you do not know …

Mr Sikazwe: Tell them.

Prof. Luo: … most of the countries that are developed, for example, Japan did so because of their villages pushing the cottage industry. China and Israel developed under the same concept. Today, Namibia, Botswana and South Africa are moving in that direction. I invite other hon. Members to come on the board of great thinkers.

Mr Musukwa: Hear, hear!

Prof. Luo: Mr Chairperson, the visit to these countries was not only in a bid to enhance the operations of institutions of chieftaincy in Zambia, but also to learn from the countries where the cottage industry has succeeded.

Sir, we conducted chiefdom tours in six provinces to ascertain the traditional culture necessary for spearheading rural development.

Sir, we have encouraged all the chiefdoms to develop strategic plans. This year, we have started launching these strategic plans as was the case for Chiefs Chikanta, Mukuni and Puta. Right now we have nineteen strategic plans which we are finalising so that they can be launched. It is from these strategic plans that we buy into programmes that are taking place in the chiefdoms.

Sir, we have also gone into some agricultural activities at chiefdom level such as fish and poultry farming. The first chiefs to benefit from these activities were Chiefs Mumena, Mwinemutondo and Matebo. This was followed by activities in Chief Nalubamba’s area, which was one of our last programmes to launch. We intend to launch more before the end of this year. I want to emphasise this for the benefit of the Hon. Member of Parliament for Namwala, who made a statement that we are procuring second hand machines. The machines we procure are brand new …

Mr Sikazwe: Hear, hear.

Prof. Luo: … because we want to make sure that the people in rural areas fully benefit from our programmes. I also want to tell you that the …

The Chairperson: Order, hon. Minister, can you address her through the Chair.

Mr Livune: Yes.

Prof. Luo: Yes, Sir, I am addressing her through the Chair.

Mr Chairperson: No, you are doing it directly. To address her through the Chair is not just to look at me. You should say, “I want to tell her through Mr Chairperson that  … .”

Prof. Luo: Thank you Mr Chairperson for that guidance. I want to tell her that the equipment which we distributed to the chiefdoms was brand new. In addition to the equipment, we also provided the chiefdoms with some farming implements, especially those which promote value addition. Our chiefdoms will soon have milling units which pack mealie-meal into bags and sews them up ready for sell.

Sir, furthermore, the ministry has engaged Chalimbana Training College and the National Institute of Public Administration (NIPA) in discussions aimed at facilitating leadership training and partnership brokering for our traditional leaders. The foregoing is considered as a very important undertaking in the enhancement of our governance system. This is because before the chiefs can champion development, they have to understand what this development activity is about. They have to understand the role they are expected to play in the development process. Only then can they help their communities fight rural poverty.

Mr Chairman, my ministry has undertaken the upgrading and rehabilitation of infrastructure works at the following sites:

(i)    The Victoria Falls …

  Hon. Members: Order, order.

  The Chairperson: Order.

   It is interesting that I am being assisted by people from my left and right.

  Laughter
(Debate adjourned)

_________

HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

__________

The House adjourned at 1957 hours until 1430 hours on Wednesday 13th November, 2013.