DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE THIRD SESSION OF THE ELEVENTH ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 20th November, 2013

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

__________

RULING BY MR SPEAKER

POINT OF ORDER RAISED BY HON. M. MUTELO, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR LUKULU WEST PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCY, AGAINST THE MINISTER OF YOUTH AND SPORT, HON. C KAMBWILI, MP, ON WEDNESDAY, 6TH NOVEMBER, 2013.

Hon. Members will recall that on Wednesday, 6th November, 2013, when the House was considering Question for Oral Answer No. 167, and the hon. Member for Senga Hill Parliamentary Constituency, Mr K. Simbao, MP, was raising a supplementary question, the hon. Member for Lukulu West Parliamentary Constituency, Mr M. Mutelo, MP, raised the following Point of Order:

“Mr Speaker, I have been compelled to raise this point of order. I have your record for 18th October, 2013. It is a record of the Hansard, your debates. It reads as follows:  

‘Mr Mutelo: Mr Speaker, I thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to raise a point of order. I apologise for interrupting the hon. Member who is debating well. 

‘The Zambian Chapter of the African Parliamentarian Network against Corruption (APNAC) President appealed to the Head of State, His Excellency the President of Zambia, Mr Michael Chilufya Sata, to dissolve his Cabinet because its members are allegedly corrupt, as confessed by themselves. 

‘Is the hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting in order to say that the APNAC President was wrong to appeal to His Excellency the President, who is allergic to corruption, to dissolve his Cabinet in national interest? I seek your serious ruling, Sir. 

‘Mr Kambwili: Umwaice ala pepa icamba.’

“Mr Speaker, before you make your ruling, this has gone on record. Was the hon. Minister of Youth and Sport in order, in the first place, to address me as mwaice and, in the second place, to say that ala pepa icamba, which I do not smoke?

“Mr Speaker, ala pepa icamba, in my language, translates into uzuba matokwani. 

“Mr Speaker, this means that I smoke dagga. Do I really smoke dagga? 

“I seek your serious ruling, as this has gone on record.”

As hon. Members will recall, in my immediate remarks on the point of order, I indicated that I needed to study the transcript so that I could give an informed ruling. I, therefore, reserved the ruling on the point of order.

My office has since studied the transcript and listened to the relevant recording of the proceedings and I now wish to render my ruling on the matter.

Hon. Members, the point of order raises the serious issue of an hon. Member using unparliamentary language and making running commentaries in the House; a practice which, regrettably, is fast attaining endemic levels in this House. 

Hon. Members are reminded of the provisions of Rules 5 and 7, Cap. 5, on pages 20 and 21 of the Members’ Handbook which provide important rules of parliamentary etiquette that hon. Members are expected to observe at all times in the House. These Rules state:
 
“5.    Members should not interrupt any Member while speaking by disorderly expression or noises or in any disorderly manner.

7.    Members should not obstruct proceedings, or interrupt and should avoid making running commentaries when another Member is speaking.”

Also, prominent parliamentary authors have pronounced on the indispensable need for Members to abide by the rules of debate in the House in maintaining respect for the House and its Members. For example, Audrey O’Brien and Marc Bosc, in their book entitled House of Commons Procedure and Practice, Second Edition, at page 618, make the following observation:

“The proceedings of the House are based on a long-standing tradition of respect for the integrity of all Members. Thus, the use of offensive, provocative or threatening language in the House is strictly forbidden. Personal attacks, insults and obscenities are not in order.” 

Hon. Members, the foregoing authorities clearly indicate that an hon. Member who unnecessarily interrupts another hon. Member’s speech or uses disparaging language in the House is in breach of the rules of the House. It is, therefore, evident that hon. Members who are in the habit of debating while seated do so in contravention of the rules of the House and run the risk of being in contempt of the House. 

Having laid out that important background, I now address the point of order raised by the hon. Member for Lukulu West. 

Hon. Members, the investigations conducted by my office conclusively revealed that the hon. Minister of Youth and Sport did, indeed, utter the words complained about by the hon. Member for Lukulu West. However, the question that remains is whether the point of order was raised in accordance with the rules of this House. 

As hon. Members are aware, the hon. Member for Lukulu West raised his point of order on 6th November, 2013. The statement against which the point of order was raised was made on 18th October, 2013. This means that there was a period of, at least, two weeks between the making of the offensive remarks and the raising of the point of order. 

Hon Members, in addressing this issue, I wish to re-emphasise a point I have made on several occasions regarding the timing of points of order which, to me, is critical.

The discourse of the learned authors of The House of Commons Procedure and Practice, Second Edition, is instructive in this regard. At page 618, the authors’ state the following:

“If language used in debate appears questionable to the Speaker, he or she will intervene. Nonetheless, any Member who feels aggrieved by a remark or allegation may also bring the matter to the immediate attention of the Speaker on a point of order … 

“Since the Speaker must rule on the basis of the context in which the language was used, points of order raised in regard to questionable language must be raised as soon as possible after the alleged irregularity has occurred.”

From the foregoing, it is apparent that a point of order relating to unparliamentary language must be raised immediately or soon after the offending remarks have been made.

In view of this, Hon. Mutelo’s point of order does not comply with the requirement that a point of order should be raised contemporaneously with the conduct complained about. In this case, it was raised after a period of, at least, two weeks following the occurrence of the episode complained about. In this regard, as important as the point of order may be, my ruling is that it was made out of time, thus, rendering it inadmissible. 

This notwithstanding, I wish to state that it is extremely unfortunate and regrettable that an hon. Member and, worse still, an hon. Cabinet Minister, uttered remarks that have the potential of damaging the reputation of another hon. Member. Such conduct is not only irresponsible and unacceptable, but also undermines the dignity of this House.

Hon. Members, this House is not referred to as an august House by accident. It is a term of arts. For those who may not be aware, the word ‘august’ is derived from the Latin word ‘augustus,’ which means dignified, inspiring, revered, noble, or respected. In this regard, it is because of the esteemed position in which the House is held that it is referred to as ‘august’ and, by extension, it is also for this reason that each Member of the House bears the title ‘Honourable’. The people of Zambia, therefore, expect the highest standards of behaviour from us, their elected representatives. It is, thus, an affront on their expectations for hon. Members to conduct themselves in a manner that is contrary to the decorum and dignity of the House. 

I, therefore, urge those hon. Members, and they are many, …

Laughter

Mr Speaker: … in the habit of exhibiting undignified behavior in the House to, henceforth, desist from doing so. Hon. Members, personal aspersions, unbecoming language and insults during debate do not reflect well on the House as a whole. This, as I said earlier on, is unacceptable and will surely erode public confidence and bring this institution of the National Assembly of Zambia into disrepute. I cannot and will not allow any hon. Member to bring this House into disrepute.

Hon. Members are, therefore, reminded that the rules and procedures of the House are designed to ensure that they exercise their privilege of free speech with good sense of judgment and taste; always being courteous in language and towards other hon. Member’s debates. 

Finally, considering the immense discomfort and embarrassment the statement by the hon. Minister of Youth and Sport has occasioned the hon. Member for Lukulu West, I direct that the statement be expunged from the record of the Parliamentary Debates for Friday, 18th October, 2013. 

I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

__________

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

AFRICAN SWINE FEVER BREAK OUT

189.    Mr Katuka (Mwinilunga) asked the Minister of Agriculture and Livestock:
(a)    when the African Swine Fever broke out in Lusaka Province, as reported in the media;

(b)    what the population of pigs in the province was and how many pig farms had, so far, been affected;

(c)    what the symptoms for the disease were

(d)    what measures the Government had taken to control the disease;

(e)    what the effects of the disease on the piggery industry in Zambia were; and

(f)    whether the affected farmers would be compensated to help restock the pigs.
The Deputy Minister for Agriculture and Livestock (Mr Kazabu): Mr Speaker, the Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock learnt of the outbreak of the African Swine Fever in Lusaka on 9th November, 2013. It was confirmed on 14th November, 2013, by the University of Zambia (UNZA) School of Veterinary Medicine.

Sir, the population of pigs in Lusaka Province is approximately 33,000. So far, fourteen pig farms have been confirmed to be affected by the disease.

Sir, the symptoms of the disease include:
(a)    bleeding;
(b)    abortion or birth of weak piglets;
(c)    high fever;
(d)    loss of appetite;
(e)    sudden death;
(f)    red or blue skin discolouration, especially around the ears and snout;
(g)    coughing;
(h)    diarrhoea;
(i)    vomiting; 
(j)    sticky eye lids;
(k)    difficulties in breathing; and
(l)    unwillingness to stand.
Mr Speaker, the measures that have been put in place to control the disease are:
(a)    surveillance to determine the extent of the geographic spread and number of farms and animals affected by the disease. Teams of veterinary officers have been mobilised and sent to various pig farms in Lusaka Province to undertake clinical examinations of pigs and collect samples for laboratory tests for the African Swine Fever; 

(b)    ban on the slaughter of pigs and processing of pig products at abattoirs in the province;

(c)    ban on the movement and marketing of all pigs and pig products within, into and out of Lusaka Province;

(d)    alerting officers at the check points, namely Kafue, Kabangwe, Nkalamabwe, West Wood and Luangwa to restrict the movement of pigs and pig products. These permanent check points will be augmented by mobile ones in Kasupe and Chilanga to control the movement;

(e)    it is too soon to determine the full effects of the disease on the piggery industry in Zambia. However, if the disease is not contained and establishes a foothold in Lusaka Province, large investments that have been made could be lost. Pig traders and pork processing plants will be affected in terms of loss of business whilst the pig farmers will be affected in terms of loss of animals through death and movement restrictions. It should be noted that there is no known treatment or cure for the African Swine Fever nor is a preventive vaccine available. Therefore, the only recourse is to depopulate or slaughter all the affected pigs and those that are found on the contact farms. As the African Swine Fever virus is also transmitted through pig products and contaminated materials, the ministry will destroy all products originating from infected and affected farms in order to contain and ultimately eradicate the disease; and

(f)    it is estimated that 25,000 pigs may need to be slaughtered to contain and ultimately eradicate the disease from Lusaka Province and, in accordance with the law, the Animal Health Act of 2010, the Government shall compensate all the affected pig farmers. However, this will only be known after the current surveillance activities have provided further information about the spread of the infection.
I thank you, Sir.

Mr Katuka: Mr Speaker, I will start by declaring interest that I am a small-scale farmer in Lusaka Province too. 

Laughter

Mr Katuka: Sir, from the time it was announced that there was an outbreak of the African Swine Fever in Lusaka Province, we have not seen any activity in terms of visitations to the small-scale farms to determine and allay fears of the farmers of this disease spreading to their farms. May I know what the Government is doing about the plight of the small-scale farmers.

Mr Kazabu: Mr Speaker, in our response, I did explain to the House and to the nation that our officers are in the field. What may have happened is that, perhaps, they have not yet reached the hon. Member’s farm. Otherwise, we are already in action and are everywhere in terms of the radius within which the African Swine Fever has been identified.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muchima (Ikeleng’i): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister mentioned that 25,000 pigs out of the 33,000 pigs could be affected. Could he confirm that 25,000 is not the exact number of pigs that are affected and the search for pigs affected by this disease is on-going?

Mr Kazabu: Mr Speaker, yes, I can confirm that statement. So far, what has been established as the total number of pigs that are affected is 11,000. However, we think that the other 14,000 may be affected as well because, after all, they are also in Lusaka Province. Therefore, the hon. Member is right. We may not have to slaughter 25,000 pigs only.

I thank you, Sir.  

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, I want to thank the hon. Minister for his response which has outlined the measures that have been put in place in Lusaka Province to control this particular disease. 

Mr Speaker, I would like to find out why the Government is discriminating against the people of the Eastern Province. This disease has been in existence in the province for more than forty years, and yet nothing has been done and the farmers have been suffering. Unlike here in Lusaka, there has been no slaughtering of these pigs so that the farmers are compensated. 

Mr Kazabu: Mr Speaker, I appreciate the question, but the issue under discussion is that which concerns the outbreak in Lusaka Province. So, the hon. Member may wish to raise another question and we will respond to it.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Mr Speaker, I would like to thank the Government for its intention to compensate the farmers. However, I would like to find out how much compensation each pig will attract and whether the question by the hon. Member for Monze Central will also be taken into consideration because the farmers in the Eastern Province also need to be compensated. 

Mr Kazabu: Mr Speaker, the estimated average value in monetary terms for each pig is K300.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Habeenzu (Chikankanta): Mr Speaker, I would like the hon. Minister to give us the names of the farms at which this disease is prevailing.

Mr Kazabu: Mr Speaker, the farms that have been affected, so far, are:

Area and Names of Farms    Total No. of Pigs affected

Lusaka West: Musanza    5,547
    Chi    
    Zongi
    Wangzhou
    Phiri
    Musongole
    Exteen

Kasupe:     Mwiya    598
    Simwiinga

Chamba Valley: Hu    633
    Kalaluka

Kanakantapa    Investigations still on-going

Chongwe:    Tonga    68
    Sampa

Total     6,846    

 I thank you, Sir.

Mr Miyanda (Mapatizya): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister the strong measures he is putting in place to ensure that some of these pork products from the affected pigs do not reach the market for human consumption.

Mr Kazabu: Mr Speaker, initially in my response, I explained that we, as a ministry, are carrying out a surveillance exercise and have strengthened the checks at the various check points which I have named. Through such measures, no pigs will leave Lusaka to go elsewhere and, indeed, no pigs should be allowed to come into Lusaka. Those are the measures that we have undertaken, so far.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Speaker, I appreciate the statement by the hon. Minister. However, there has been a report that the veterinary officers, who are going round inspecting farms, are themselves not taking precaution to ensure that they do not transmit the disease. In addition to that, what merit is in stopping carcasses of pigs from areas that are not infected from coming to Lusaka? What problem would they create if they were allowed to come into Lusaka?

The Minister of Agriculture and Livestock (Mr Sichinga): Mr Speaker, first of all, the measures that are being taken with regard to the officers that are visiting these places is that the farms themselves obviously need to be sanitised. We made a press statement and had a ministerial statement ready for this House in which we are explaining this. We have already determined the epicentre of the spread of the disease. So, we know exactly which particular farms seem to have triggered this. What we are doing is to prevent the disease from reaching other farms. For that reason, because of the uncertainty of how carcasses might move, we have decided to have a complete ban in order to avoid the spread of this disease because there is no other way it can be prevented. The officers themselves are, in fact, instructed to carry with them chemicals to ensure that each one of the farms they visit is sanitised. So, we will follow up the issue that the hon. Member for Kabwata has raised and if that is the case, then, we will ensure that every single person that is reaching these farms is sanitised in the manner that we have just explained.

 However, the farms themselves will have to maintain similar precautions to ensure that they do not spread this disease. So, we do not want any animals coming in because of the uncertainty in determining exactly where the carcasses might come from. In fact, I will lay a map which shows the farms in the whole province on the Table of the House. We have also identified where animals may have been taken outside Lusaka. What we have not done is to establish which particular vehicles were used to ferry them so that we can determine who was actually responsible for this. However, we have already taken details of which farms were involved. Therefore, we have already done this work and these are the kind of measures that we have put in place.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Mr Speaker, understandably, we have heard the response from the hon. Minister. Given those haphazard measures put in place to curb this very dangerous disease, I would like to find out whether the Government or ministry will consider setting up a Surveillance Technical Committee that will be on stand-by in the event that there is occurrence of a similar disease in the future.

Mr Sichinga: Mr Speaker, I would like to correct the impression that has been created. There are no haphazard measures that have been put in place because the whole exercise is very methodical. I think that when we discuss matters of a serious nature, people should be serious too. 

Sir, there is always a protocol that is followed when a situation such as this one arises and that is exactly what we are doing. This is why in response to the question by the hon. Member of Parliament for Kabwata, regarding officers going into these locations without following measures prescribed in the protocol, I said that I will follow it up and determine the authenticity of that assertion. 

Mr Speaker, we have an inter-ministerial committee that was set up last Friday to ensure proper co-ordination in the monitoring of this particular incident. There are various locations both in-situ and mobile that we have put in place. The names of all the locations where we are carrying out this monitoring have already been given. 

Sir, in response to the point that was made by the hon. Member for Monze Central, we have permanent stations at Luangwa, in the Eastern Province, Kafue and Kabangwe to make sure that monitoring is done. All these are permanent stations and we are supposed to monitor if people are doing their work. 

Finally, Sir, as at now, we have not determined exactly how the disease may have come to be at the first farm before it spread. We are, however, working on finding out what could have happened. It might be helpful to you to just take note of that. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Mufalali (Senanga): Mr Speaker, given the history of the recent past where the Government has been failing to pay farmers who grow crops, will the farmers who are going to lose these pigs be compensated? Is the money to pay them really there?

Mr Sichinga: Mr Speaker, we are discussing the issue of pigs and I do not think that we should bring in other issues. 

Interruptions

Mr Sichinga: Suffice it to say that there is a law in place which this House past and we will go by it. Even the issues the hon. Deputy Minister indicated will not be automatic. We will have to consider the age and weight of each animal that is going to be slaughtered to ensure that the compensation is in accordance with the law. 

Mr Speaker, I thank you. 

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Speaker, I want to thank the hon. Minister for his statement. 

Sir, swine fever is carried by wild pigs, but they do not die from it. So, it is the domesticated pigs that should be protected. This disease outbreak is both in the east and west of Lusaka Province and endemic in the Eastern Province. Therefore, I would like to know why the ministry did not identify which areas this disease could have originated from and why it found it necessary to bar other provinces that are clear of the African Swine Fever from trading in pork and pork products. Is that evidence of the failure of veterinary officers to control this disease?  

Mr Sichinga: Mr Speaker, in tackling this problem, we should avoid making assumptions. I explained to the House that we seek to establish how the first infection in the farms came about. I said that the officers are in the field doing just that. I also offered to provide a map, which I will lay on the Table, once we finish the discussion. 

Sir, we have established the epicentre which is the western side of Lusaka. However, the information that we also have is that there were some vehicles seen moving animals from one location to another in the hope of salvaging them. This is how the disease spread to the eastern side of the province. 

Mr Speaker, with regard to dealing with a specific aspect of this disease, it may not be possible for us to pin-point the order in which it actually progressed. That is why we are saying that we would rather prevent any movement of these animals because we do not know how the disease is being spread. For instance, there are stories of animals being sold in Chibolya because these carcasses were moved all over the place. We want to restrict the movement of these animals because it will be very difficult for us to monitor the disease in any other way. 

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Kaingu (Mwandi): Mr Speaker, I read a small book entitled Animal Farm by George Orwell. The situation unfolding before us confirms what this gentleman was writing about. 

Sir, why should pig farmers be compensated while cattle farmers in Mwandi, who are also losing their cattle through anthrax, are not being compensated? Why should the Government discriminate? 

Mr Sichinga: Mr Speaker, I responded to this question earlier. There is no discrimination, as such. At this point, we are dealing, specifically, with Lusaka Province. 

Sir, I explained that there is a specific law that we have to abide by. I do not think that this is an issue of discrimination at all. However, the long-term strategy is to eradicate all animal diseases throughout the country.

This, however, will depend on the level of co-operation. In our press briefing, we requested for all the farmers to co-operate with our officers. I want to mention here that there are some farms which have denied our officers entry and we have had to quote the law to them, stipulating that their action would make them responsible for the spread of the disease. The other aspect to this issue is that once we determine how or who was responsible for this infection, they will be held liable for this compensation. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Mtolo (Chipata Central): Mr Speaker, we have just been educated, through a very elaborate response by the hon. Minister that the African Swine Fever is viral and communicable through pigs, pork and pork products. 

Sir, just 600 km or less is the Eastern Province which is full of pigs that we have been told carry this virus. Why can we not look at a long-term position of sorting out this problem by ensuring that we eradicate this disease in the province for good instead of letting this contamination stay with us year in and year out? Can the hon. Minister, please, clarify.

Mr Sichinga: Mr Speaker, the ministry is looking at a long-term solution. The Deputy Minister, in his response, indicated that there is no known cure at the moment. This is a scientific challenge that we need to address. In fact, I indicated to our officers that I would like them to concentrate on this aspect. 

Mr Speaker, bear in mind that this is the African Swine Fever and it is clear that it is a problem that needs to be sorted out by Africa. Unfortunately, Africa has not done enough or invested sufficiently in arriving at results that would give us a cure or, indeed, a vaccine. Therefore, in responding to the question, yes, a long-term solution is needed and I have explained that not only are we talking about the African Swine Fever, but also all animal diseases which need to be eliminated. 

Mr Speaker, I thank you.  

Mr L. J. Ngoma (Sinda): Mr Speaker, as the ministry goes about slaughtering these pigs in the affected areas, I would like to know how soon the Government will fully compensate the affected farmers. 

Mr Sichinga: Mr Speaker, we will cross that bridge when we get to it. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Mwanza (Solwezi West): Mr Speaker, I would like the hon. Minister, who is speaking very good English on the Floor of the House, to confirm whether the disease is harmful to human beings. 

Mr Sichinga: Mr Speaker, that is a difficult question to answer. The information that we have is that this disease does not cross from animals to human beings. However, since we are saying that we do not have a cure in place, it is very difficult for us to say whether it affects human beings or not. 

Sir, we are, therefore, being cautious by stopping the process because we do not know if this disease may be transferred to human beings. In the absence of this information, we need to take preventative measures that might ... 

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member for Mazabuka Central, you may pose your question.

Mr L. J. Ngoma: On a point of order, Sir. 

Laughter 

 
Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has indicated that there is a need for concerted effort as well as …

Mr L. J. Ngoma: On a point of order, of Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr L. J. Ngoma: Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to raise this point of order. I apologise to the hon. Member for Mazabuka Central for interrupting him. I asked a very straightforward question on how soon the farmers will be compensated and, in his response, the hon. Minister has indicated that the Government will only cross the bridge when it gets there …

Hon. Opposition Members: When we are already there.

Mr L. J. Ngoma: … when pigs are already being slaughtered. Is he in order to answer in such a manner which renders my question almost irrelevant?

I need your serious ruling, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: Since he used a figure of speech, I will ask him to clarify because figures of speech have their own challenges in terms of interpretation. Maybe, he should respond in a more simplistic language.

The hon. Member for Mazabuka Central, may continue.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister, in his statement, said that there is a need for concerted efforts and co-operation, especially from the farmers who rear pigs. Wild pigs are carriers of this African Swine Fever, meaning it is endemic to the wild pigs and has been there ever since Adam and Eve. Therefore, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister, who is calling for this co-operation from all stakeholders, including consumers, what the mondus operandi is in making sure that the Government realises its wish-list in terms of getting the pork products off the market in the midst of poverty and hunger in this country?

Mr Sichinga: Mr Speaker, let us deal with the hon. Member of Parliament for Sinda first. I do not know the total number of animals, their size and have no idea what weight they will be. We do not even know whether it will be the entire population in all the areas. We do not know all this. I do not intend to engage in speculation. Only when the process has been completed, and this is what the statement said, will we know what we are talking about. Of course, we do not keep money on the side to wait for an occasion like this. All we have are provisions, as we say in the Budget, so that when an emergency or a contingency of this kind arises, we are able to address it. I think that the hon. Member for Sinda knows that very well. He claims he has done some accounting so he should understand that fact.

Laughter

Mr Sichinga: Mr Speaker, the second point that has been raised here is the issue of how this impacts on poverty. The point at hand is that we have to make choices here. We can either completely eliminate the animals or not take any measures at all. We have to choose the lesser evil between doing nothing about it, leaving it as it is or contain the situation prevailing at the moment. We think that the latter is the more reasonable way to approach it in order to deal with this. At the end of the day, there are choices that we have to make and yes, we would obviously like to eliminate poverty. Various other measures besides the issue of pork are at play. We have indicated that as a protocol, we will not withdraw …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order, on the right!

Mr Sichinga: … those products which went on the shelves before we became aware of this break out. We have said we will leave those products on the shelves because we have no way of determining which farm processed a particular product on the shelf. Suffice it to say that our investigations seem to reflect that the incident of the disease seems to have started about a month ago. We are simply trying to contain what is obtaining, at the moment, rather than saying the beacon on a particular shelf may have come from a particular farm. It will be next to impossible for us to be able to do that.

I thank you, Sir.

KATIMA MULILO ONE-STOP-BORDER POST

190. Mr Sianga (Sesheke) asked the Minister of Home Affairs:

(a)    when the construction of staff houses at the one-stop-border post in Katima Mulilo would commence;

(b)    when the border post would be fenced to improve security; and 

(c)    when the remaining works at the border post would be completed.

The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Kampyongo): Mr Speaker, construction of staff houses at the one-stop-border post in Katima Mulilo has already commenced and is being carried out in phases. So far, ten low-cost houses have been constructed and are currently occupied.

Mr Speaker, the Ministry of Home Affairs is collaborating with the Ministry of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication to commence Phase II of the project in the second quarter of 2014. You may further wish to know that land has been secured and reserved for this exercise.

Mr Speaker, the fencing of the border post will commence in the second quarter of 2014 after all preliminary works have been completed. The fencing will be carried out in order to enhance security at the Katima Mulilo Border Post.

Sir, the Ministry of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication has also engaged the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA), which owns the larger part of the facility, to come up with modalities on how costs can best be shared amongst the institutional users of the border post.

Mr Speaker, the remaining works at the border post will be completed when the two contractors, being the main contractor and the sub-contractor for the project, complete the works. The Ministry of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication has written to the two contractors so that the remaining works can be finalised as soon as possible.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sianga: Mr Speaker, with the opening of the one-stop-border facility, we have more staff at this facility and, therefore, need more houses. We have heard that the second phase of the construction will be started in the second quarter of next year, 2014. May I find out from the hon. Minister within what timeframe the second phase will be completed.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, we are aware of the need to have these houses constructed for the so many members of staff who are required to be deployed to that border facility, but it is difficult for me to say the exact timeframe within which the second phase of the construction will be completed. This can only be determined by our technocrats at the Buildings Department. Depending on the design of these houses, they are able to estimate the period of completion.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwezi): Mr Speaker, may I know why the ministry decided to open a one-stop-border post without infrastructure.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, the one-stop-border post facility is an initiative between two countries and so there was a need for that facility to be opened. At that point, a number of staff were deployed and they are managing for now. However, to enhance the smooth flow of persons, goods and transactions, there will still be a need to send more members of staff. There was a need to open the facility because most of the major works were completed

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mufalali (Senenga): Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that the counterparts on the other side of the border have done a lot of work which they have even completed while we are still postponing the commencement of works to the second quarter of 2014?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, we are aware of how much progress our colleagues on the other side have made and are equally committed, as the Zambian Government, to also ensure that we complete the rest of works that are outstanding so that the facility can be fully operational. I am sure that the hon. Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication did indicate, in his response, that some funds have been allocated to ensure that all these remaining works are carried out.

I thank you, Sir.

__________

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the
Chair]

VOTE 27 – (Public Service Management Division – K802,174,260).

(Consideration resumed)

Prof. Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Mr Chairperson, when the House adjourned yesterday, I was saying that there are major weaknesses that the graduates of our institutions of higher learning, the source of employees for the Public Service Management Division (PSMD), face. These weaknesses are reflected in different ways. There are quite a number of graduates from our institutions of higher learning who actually cannot communicate effectively, in writing and even in the spoken word. For example, if you read letters written by some of our graduates, you would be extremely appalled by them. If you listened to some of them speak, they can be said to be a disgrace. The PSMD should be able to interface with our institutions of training and send the expectations required of a quality graduate.

Ultimately, Mr Chairperson, the PSMD is the institution of quality assurance in public service delivery. The PSMD is supposed to exhibit the recruitment of the cream of the crop, the brightest and the best which will be able to assure us that there is efficiency and effectiveness at the highest level of quality in the delivery of public services. The PSMD is the custodian of the merit of human resources in the Public Service.

Mr Chairperson, there are examples elsewhere in other countries where those who are in charge of public service management send their expectations of graduates to be employed from these institutions of training. For example, I had an opportunity to visit China in 2005 in the company of sixteen vice-chancellors from universities here in Africa and we were addressed by some top officials in the Government of that Republic. They assured us that as far as their institutions of training were concerned, they, as managers of the Public Service, actually played a key role in influencing the training of individuals in those institutions. They sent recommendations of what they expect in the Public Service in terms of the skills, knowledge and other relevant attributes of a graduate so that when these are employed, for example, in the Public Service, they are easily trainable and can easily adjust to the norms, culture and ethics of the Public Service. These are just examples.

Therefore, Sir, our PSMD should take such examples into account in order to elevate those who are in charge of the Pubic Service to the highest levels possible. When they are recruited in the Public Service, they must be inducted in the norms and culture of this service so that they exemplify the highest attributes of civil servants who are charged with the responsibility of providing public service and exhibiting what is normative in public service delivery. The efficiency, courteousness and the highest levels of skills must be areas in which recruits to the Public Service are inducted.

Sir, the performance assessment in the Public Service must be undertaken vigorously and seriously so that there is no laxity on the part of those who execute public service. They must, at all times, be on their toes to upgrade themselves professionally to the highest levels every year so that they do not relapse into a routine way of doing things. They must be at the frontier of new ways of doing things and acquisition of new skills and knowledge. This is very important. After all, we are in the 21st Century and this demands that our societies be knowledge-driven. Those who are in positions of responsibility, especially in the Public Service, must exhibit new ways of doing things and new knowledge from time to time. That is very important in a knowledge-driven society like ours.

Mr Chairperson, my last point has to do with the process of recruitment in the Public Service. We hear a lot of things in this regard. Some of the things we hear have to do with issues of nepotism and favouritism of recruitment to the Public Service. If what we hear is happening, we would urge the PSMD to rise above such attributes and exhibit the highest level of merit in the recruitment process so that those who are recruited are done so on merit.

Mr Chairperson, the challenge that the PSMD has, especially in matters of recruitment in a democracy where political parties compete, is that of falling in the process of being partisan and that is unacceptable. The PSMD should rise above that so that those who are recruited into the Public Service are done so on merit. Once recruited, they should be subjected to the highest rigour of supervision so that the recruits to the Public Service are in line with the expectations, norms, and culture of efficiency that they ought to exhibit in the delivery of services. That is extremely important. So, the point that I am raising is that the PSMD should not be partisan. Today, it is the Patriotic Front (PF) in office of leadership or governance of this country and tomorrow it will be a different party governing the country. That is the culture of democracy and those who are charged with the responsibility of managing our public institutions must exhibit the highest level of objectivity and professionalism and not be partisan.

Mr Chairperson, these are very important points that should be taken into account as we develop our nation. We know that those who are in the PSMD are highly educated people. We know them by name and we have seen them serve in various capacities so they should not let the country down. They should shape the Public Service to the highest levels possible. It should be a Public Service which all of us will be proud to associate with, to look at and say we truly have the best that this nation can offer and that it is in the right hands. They can do it. There is no reason they cannot do it. We hope that they will take these words of advice seriously as we look to 2014 and implement the 2014 Budget. We should be able to see a difference in the way that the PSMD is executing its responsibilities in the interest of the nation.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Chairperson, I rise to support the Vote pertaining to the PSMD with several caveats that I have decided to place. The PSMD is the personnel division of the Government of the Republic of Zambia and it is supposed to promulgate policies relating to personnel management in the Public Service. Unfortunately, this particular institution has failed the workers of the Republic of Zambia. I do recall that the hon. Minister of Finance issued a statement on the Floor of this House that the Government of Zambia had undertaken a wage freeze for two years. He said that there would be a freeze in the recruitment of personnel in the Public Service.

However, Sir, I have noted, with concern, that the PSMD, through the Secretary to the Cabinet, has contradicted the hon. Minister of Finance by opening negotiations with the Public Service unions. This entails that what the hon. Minister of Finance told us was us not true. If what the hon. Minister of Finance told us is true, then, it is the PSMD that is misleading the nation. Why would it open negotiations when it knows that it is not being truthful? Why would it want to please the workers when it knows that it is not going to honour its obligations?

Sir, I do not know if it will be the current or the former Vice-President who will respond, …

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: … but I would like His Honour the Vice-President to state categorically that there is a wage freeze and that there will be no recruitment of personnel in this country for the next two years. That way, the workers will know and decide whether to stay or leave the Public Service. It is not fair to mislead the workers of this country.

Mr Chairperson, I do recall that when we were in the pact with the PF, together we used to vote against the position of District Commissioner (DC). The PF did not want that position. We would insist that if we ever supported that position, we would ensure that only professionally qualified personnel were recruited. We insisted that those who would be recruited would be civil servants. Unfortunately, the DCs are not recruited by the PSMD. We have noted, with concern, that most DCs are cadres.

Mr Livune crossed the Floor.

Mr Mwiimbu: I am made to understand that some of these DCs cannot even write, …

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: … and yet they are supervising professionals in the Civil Service. Does the Government not think that it is actually demoralising the hard-working civil servants? Why should it do that? We have also noted that most of the DCs who have been appointed are people who lost in the last general elections. Most of them lost the elections and those who did not stand for elections, but were appointed as DCs are either former women’s’ chairpersons in the PF or ward chairmen or ng’wa ng’wanzis at bus stations. These have now been appointed DCs …

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: … to supervise doctors and other professionals in the district. Surely, is that what we have been advocating for? The answer is no. It, therefore, entails that the promises that our colleagues were making to the people of this country are policies that they did not intend to achieve. I can foresee that those who are carrying more pangas in the street are the ones who will be appointed DCs very soon.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, they will be rewarded by those colleagues (pointing at hon. Government Ministers) on your right side because that is their nature.

Mr Chairperson, we have been informed by the hon. Minister of Health that 650 new health posts will be constructed in the country. These health posts will require personnel, but the PSMD has advised the PF Government not to recruit any more civil servants so that these particular clinics become white elephants. We have heard reports that, currently, security guards are administering medicines at a number of clinics. Does this not show that there is a serious shortage of manpower in the health sector? Therefore, why should there be an employment freeze in the Public Service?

Mr Chairperson, we are all aware that under the obnoxious United National Independence Party (UNIP) regime, we had a wage and recruitment freeze at one point. The repercussions of this freeze were very serious on the Public Service. Why would we want to repeat the mistakes of the past? Is it because the PF has a lot in common with UNIP? Why should we be pathetic failures in terms of managing the Public Service? We have been assured by the Government, through the PSMD, that civil servants and other public workers have been handsomely rewarded in terms of wages and salaries. However, the opposite is what is obtaining on the ground. Why are our colleagues on your right misleading the nation?

His Honour the Vice-President …

Hon. Opposition Members: Which one?

The Chairperson: Address the Chairperson, please.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, I am now addressing the current Vice-President.

Laughter{mospagebreak}

Mr Mwiimbu: Sir, the decision by the Government pertaining to the wage and recruitment freeze is de-motivating the Civil Service. We are aware that every year, thousands of young graduates from colleges and universities are looking for jobs. However, the Government that misled them by assuring them that it would provide jobs is now saying that it will not provide those jobs. What are we achieving? The Government is saying that, through road construction, it is creating so many jobs. However, those are casual jobs. They are not permanent. The only jobs of permanency that are available are those in the Public Service, but recruitment for these jobs has been frozen.

Mr Chairperson, we have also noted, with concern, that those who have been posted in the Foreign Service lack the right credentials. As a result of this, our staffing in foreign missions is mediocre, to say the least. Why should the PSMD allow a situation whereby some people, who have been sent to certain stations like London as accountants, cannot even prepare books of accounts? Just because they are cadres in the PF, they are now replacing professionally qualified personnel. Surely, we should not allow that situation to obtain in the Public Service.

Mr Chairperson, we have further noted that the offices of the Permanent Secretary (PS) and DC in the current Government have been highly politicised. This week, the DCs and PSs are in the North-Western Province busy campaigning in Zambezi. On the other hand, we are saying that these civil servants should not participate in politics. However, they are always in the forefront of campaigning for the Ruling Party. I am made to understand that even in Mulobezi and other areas, they are busy campaigning.

Mr Sing’ombe: We will sort them out.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, yesterday, I listened to a news item on a member of the Zambia Security Intelligence Service (ZSIS) who was arrested in Mansa for tearing up a campaign placard for the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD). Why should a civil servant, who must not participate in politics, climb trees and tear posters? I have never heard of a senior intelligence officer engaging in such macabre activities.

Mr Muntanga: Is that true?

Mr Mwiimbu: Yes. He was arrested and today he appeared in court. This is a fact and it is ground for a petition, assuming the impossible happens and the Ruling Party wins the Mansa By-Election. Why should we allow our civil servants to sink so low? 

Mr Chairperson, the PSMD must advise His Honour the Vice-President, who is the Leader of Government Business in the House, so that, in turn, he advises his colleagues that the Civil Service should be apolitical. 

Mr Chairperson, it is unfortunate that we have no confidence anymore in the DCs and some PSs because when I visit a DC, I know I am visiting a party cadre. We should promote professionalism in the Public Service for the benefit of all of us because there is no permanency in being in the Ruling party. With the way things are going, I have no doubt in my mind that I will be sitting somewhere there in 2016 (pointing at the Government Front Bench).

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Government Members: Where?

Mr Mwiimbu: Where His Honour the Vice-President is sitting and he will be out there somewhere in Bauleni complaining. Let us be apolitical and allow the PSMD to work professionally.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Chairperson, I stand to support the Vote for the PSMD. As I do so, however, I will raise certain concerns. It is a pity that the PSMD is not managing the Public Service. We are now approving a budget for the PSMD, but I wish the Government could accept that there is a purpose for this division and allow it to work professionally. Unfortunately, it is manipulated. Things are changed faster than the division can cope. 

Mr Chairperson, the previous Government said that there had been a revision of the composition of the Public Service to the extent that we had various veterinary assistants retired to the detriment of the disease control effort, especially in areas such as Shang’ombo. The guards of the cordon line were all removed in the name pretext of revising the composition of the Public Service. Now, we are battling and must go back to the way things were and this means that someone is not taking control of the Civil Service.

Mr Chairperson, I realise that the first point at which we weakened the Civil Service was when we stopped the system of promoting people through the ranks. People must understand the movement of a file in a Government office. How does a file move from one section to another? What action needs to be taken? This time around, we no longer have PSs. They should not be called PSs because a PS should rise through the ranks and know the Civil Service and all those rules that are required. However, currently, very few of the people in that position understand what financial regulations are. 
    
In the past, Sir, one had to sit for a test in order to be moved from a lower rank. To move to any stage, one had to sit for a test. His/her efficiency bar had to be checked. If on one day you moved and had to move the next day, still you would have to sit for a test. At the moment, they just move. On a given day, a person is a party cadre and throwing stones and the next day, he is made a PS or deputy in the Ministry of Home Affairs or State House with no idea about the systems of the Government. 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo rose.

Hon. UPND Members: Iwe, you have no idea!

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, to work in the Government requires experience. It does not matter whether someone is from the University of Zambia (UNZA) or is called a doctor so and so, if he/she has never worked in the Civil Service, upon being appointed PS, he/she will have to learn the job and understand how the Civil Service works. People are brought from outside to be PSs and be in charge of others, and yet there are directors who know the job, but have been sitting there for years without being moved to the position of PS. As a result, they get frustrated. People are brought in as PSs, but they ask the directors to make recommendations and write letters while they wait to just append their signatures on documents and walk away since they are the boss. As a result, the PSMD seems to be ineffective.
         
Mr Chairperson, we now have fast track training in diplomacy for the people to be sent in the Foreign Service. When one is appointed an ambassador to a given mission, they are told to go to the National Institute of Public Administration (NIPA) to take a three-month crash programme in diplomacy.

The Vice-President interjected.

Mr Muntanga: It happened even in the MMD and I am not saying that it was right then. You were in the MMD yourself.

The Chairperson: Order! Please, do not engage in dialogue. Address the Chairperson.

You may continue, hon. Member.

Mr Muntanga: Welcome, His Honour the Vice-President, who is addressing me.
    
 The Chairperson: Order! Why do you want to engage His Honour the Vice-President? I am saying that address the Chairperson. 

You may continue.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, I want His Honour the Vice-President to remember that he was in the MMD and that even then the system was not working well. The system started breaking down when the MMD did away with any policy formulated under UNIP because they were associated to Dr Kaunda. It was unfortunate because even good policies were thrown way. We destroyed the system of service. The MMD did this and the new Government is doing the same.

Mr Belemu: They are worse!

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, when the PF came into Government, it recalled all the diplomats at once. In the meantime, it had not planned how to pay them or how they would be settled. They were just recalled and replaced. As a result, some of the replacements cannot even speak English. 

Mr Chairperson, in Kenya, there was a sad development. Someone could not speak English, and yet he was a diplomat.

Hon. UPND Members: What language did he speak?

Mr Muntanga: One of the local languages.    

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, ask our own Speaker. He could not be represented by our diplomat. He was made to remove shoes because there was a lack of communication. The diplomatic etiquette could not be offered.

Hon. UPND Member: Aah, the Speaker removing shoes?

Mr Muntanga: You get angered by such developments. 

Mr Mufalali: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, we had an officer who was stammering in some language …

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: … which Kenyans could not understand. 

Hon. UPND Member: Oh, no!

Mr Muntanga: The PSMD, please, save us. Set the barest minimum standards so that we have representation in a proper way otherwise we will continue to have all these problems. Every time we are faced with such a problem, we will go into hiding in search of what to do. Those people who were in the Civil Service and understand it sometimes get disgusted by what is going on, but I do not blame the people who are incompetent because what do you expect of someone without knowledge?

Hon. UPND Member: No result.

Mr Muntanga: The Government will get into problems.

 Sir, what we are saying is that the PSMD should be allowed to participate in the management of the Public Service for the betterment of Zambia. We know that parties change, but there must be a basic structure of people who should hold the Civil Service together.

Hon. UPND Member: They should be professional.

Mr Muntanga: Sir, they must be professional. It does not matter where you are placed in the Public Service. Even a policeman or woman is a civil servant and he or she should put Zambia first. People have stopped putting Zambia first. We have contaminated every aspect of the Public Service, including the Zambia Police Force where things are just done anyhow. 

Sir, we must admit that we have a problem. Let us allow the PSMD to manage the Civil Service. When the UPND takes over power soon, …

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: … it is going to ensure that people work in the Civil Service. The PMSD must take responsibility which it is not doing at the moment. It has put people on contract who spend time in offices making deals. At one point, there was even a party which nicknamed itself the New Deal. It was New Culture at first and then what did it became?

Hon. UPND Member: New deal.

Mr Muntanga: New Deal. Everyone is dealing. This time around, I do not know what it is referred to. Is it Ten Commandments?

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, you can go to church, and yet not even be in church just as the devil knows the Bible well, but does the worst things. So, these are the problems. Let us be serious with the management of our country. The civil servants must be trained. If we have to retrain them, let us do that. Let us remind them what is expected of them. It is neither good nor fair for Zambia when even the most basic training is not done. Who is a civil servant? It is everybody who works in the Civil Service. Do not talk about DCs because those are not civil servants. From the word go, their job is to sing for the appointing authority. Where you find a DC trying to be fair, he is dropped, transferred or fired. Those are at a disadvantage because their contracts are terminated. 

Mr Chairperson, the beginning point is with our friends in the Government. We have already had three Secretaries to the Cabinet within two years. How can you do things like that? The top civil servant and his deputy are relieved of their duties and then the Government hunts for someone who has not been in the Civil Service for ten years to be in charge. How can you do that? As a result, you have totally wrong advice, and that is if you take it. 

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: At least, here, at Parliament, there is continuity. We may not be allowed to debate ourselves, but look, Mr Chairperson, it is good that you use people who have been here for a long time.

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Awe!

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, you have to sit and learn, hon. Minister, because you are still new …

Laughter

The Chairperson: Order!

A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, I rise on a procedural point of order. 

Mr Chairperson, the appointment of the Secretary to the Cabinet is a matter which comes to this House for ratification. Is the hon. Member in order to re-start the debate about this appointment when it was approved and ratified by this House?

Mr Muntanga: Question!

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, I seek your serious ruling.

The Chairperson: Order!

There is no ruling at the moment. 

Can you take that into account as you debate, hon. Member.

You may continue.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, I was saying that we have to teach people so that they learn that putting people on contract without them working sometimes is the problem. All I am appealing is that, please, support the Civil Service in totality. As we approve the Budget, I realise that the funds allocated to the PSMD are not enough, if it is to be allowed to work as expected. The PSMD must move to the rural areas and listen to the cases there. At the moment, some people are not being promoted.

Hon. Government Members: Teachers?

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, it is not only in the teaching fraternity. 

Mr Chairperson, when you go into other ministries such as the Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock, people are frustrated. Houses are not maintained, but people are expected to live in the villages. The conditions are so difficult and so rough. How do you motivate people like that? Therefore, the PSMD must move around the whole country. We must understand the minimum standards that will keep teachers at schools in places such as Shang’ombo, Chama or Siampondo. What does the Government provide in such places? In places where there were no vehicles, Agriculture Assistants had double barrel bicycles with …

Mr Livune: Ma balloon alya.

Mr Muntanga: What do you call those bicycles with double …

Interruptions

Mr Muntanga: … ma balloon, tata. I hope that His Honour the Vice-President will understand what I mean by ‘ma balloon’.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, we need to buy these bicycles for the civil servants. In the past, civil servants even had proper boots. I think that His Honour the Vice-President understands mapatis.

Interruptions

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, he knows these things. He is an agriculturalist. Civil servants used to be supported. Why are we not supporting them now? When you cross over to Botswana, there is a control point. Even without introduction, you can see the officer in charge of the control point. However, in Zambia, where there is a disease control barrier, you do not know who to approach because the officers do not wear a uniform to differentiate them from the people around …

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, one is only left to wonder who is going to stop him/her at that point.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, let us bring back the standards in the PSMD. Let us give the PSMD this money, and although I agree that it is not enough, but even with this little money, the PSMD can stipulate the minimum standards it wants to effect in the Public Service and, then, we shall support it. That is the correct way to do it. Note that just because we do not talk about these issues does not mean that the division is doing well.

Mr Chairperson, with these very few words, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: Order!

I think that we will be saying the same things over and over again. Therefore, I am going to ask His Honour the Vice-President to wind up debate on this Vote. However, before I do that, you see, something was said and if left uncorrected, it would have some repercussions. It is the issue of the Hon. Mr Speaker having been told to take off his shoes in Nairobi. Our colleagues in Kenya may come back to ask which officer asked the Hon. Mr Speaker to take off his shoes and then he will say that no such happened. Therefore, that issue has to be corrected. The information that has reached me is that it is not true that the Hon. Mr Speaker was told to take off his shoes in Nairobi.

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the 
Chair]

The Vice-President (Dr Scott): Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank the three hon. Members of the Opposition who spoke. I see that the first speaker is not present. I think that as a matter of etiquette, it is not right for an hon. Member, who contributed to a debate, to be absent when winding up debate. However, I am pleased to see that Hon. Jack Mwiimbu and also the former MMD Branch Chairperson for Kalomo …

Laughter

The Vice-President: … are here. 

Mr Chairperson, some of us have a small sense of history and so we accuse others of being a bit rough-and-tumble. I remember the election in the North-Western Province in Mufumbwe in 2009. The people on your far left and the people on your near left beat the living day light out of each other and the PF was nowhere to be seen. It is useful to have a little sense of history.

Hon. Government Members: Yes!

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, I think that all three of the contributions really concerned professionalisation of the Public Service and all I want to do is assure hon. Members that we are as interested as they are in professionalising the Public Service. However, it takes time. The reason general elections are only held every five years is that nobody believes that the faults of the service or organisation can be changed overnight. However, we are moving towards that.

Mr Chairperson, I note the usual allegation about DCs being cadres who are unable to read. At the moment, the requirement for recruitment of a DC is to have a university degree. I checked it after it came up …

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah, how many of them have degrees?

The Vice-President: … during the Vice-President’s Question Time the other day. Now, there may be some degree holders who are blind and, therefore, unable to write and read, but I think that this is just kind of pochedza madzulo, …

Laughter

The Vice-President: … if I am to use local terms and I know that the Chairperson understands that phrase.

The Chairperson: Order!

Well, Your Honour the Vice-President, I may understand, but what does pochedza madzulo mean?

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, it is casual or informal form of talk and it is repeated very often in this House. I look forward to Friday when I am sure that some of these issues will be clarified. 

Mr Chairperson, just a small point of clarification. There is a collective agreement, at the moment, which comes to an end on the 1st of April, next year, 2014. By law, the Government is obliged to sit and have discussions with the unions. What it has indicated is its wish not to just discuss unstructured wage increases. We want to discuss the restructuring of the Civil Service so that the pay is fairer for the work that is done, among other issues. All this is underway and is understood. I want to thank the three speakers for expressing their views.

Mr Chairperson, I beg to move.

Vote 27/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 27/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 27/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 27/04 – (Public Service Management Division – Human Resource Development – K4,160,457).

Mr Lufuma (Kabompo West): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme …

Mr Muntanga: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, I got so worried when you qualified as untrue, through the information that you reached you, that the Hon. Mr Speaker was not asked to take off his shoes at the Nairobi Airport. This is because, according to National Assembly (Powers and Privileges Act) Cap. 12 of the Laws of Zambia, if one speaks things that are not true, he/she will be answerable before the Committee on Privileges, Absences and Support Services. 

Sir, on 24th October, 2013, in the company of Hon. Nkombo, Hon. Chishimba and Hon. Kabanshi, what I stated happened. Therefore, is it in order for the statement I made, which is true and clear, to be reversed? I want to know because I do not want to be taken before the Committee on Privileges, Absences and Support Services for allegedly telling a lie when what I said was true, and I am ready to call these people who were present.

The Chairperson: Order!

The only technicality we have run into is that just this afternoon the Hon. Mr Speaker, in delivering his ruling on a point of order raised by the hon. Member for Lukulu West, Mr Mutelo, went into detail on when a point of order can be sustained. One of the views was that it must be done contemporaneously. 

Now, you are raising the point of order after His Honour the Vice-President has already spoken. I would have preferred that you address that issue when His Honour the Vice-President was speaking. Therefore, your point of order is unsustainable.

The hon. Member for Kabompo West, continue, please.

Mr Lufuma: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3002, Activity 001 – Africa Public Service Day, Activity 008 – International Women’s Day and Activity 009 – International Labour Day, Activity 023 – Gender Activism Week. I have noticed that last year, these Activities were budgeted for, but for 2014, they have not been budgeted for. Is this an indication that we are trying to save costs in view of the debt stock that we are accumulating?

Furthermore, I also seek clarification on Programme on 3107, Activity 003 – Fleet Accessories, Activity 004 – Fleet Servicing, Activity 006 – Procurement of Fuel and Lubricants and Activity 008 – Motor Vehicle Insurance. Is this also another cost saving measure in view of the debt stock?

The Deputy Minister in the Vice-President’s Office (Mr Mwango): Mr Chairperson, Programme 3002, Activity 001 – Africa Public Service Day, Activity 008 – International Women’s Day, Activity 009 – International Labour Day and Activity 023 – Gender Activism Week have all been realigned to Programme 3002 – Events.

Sir, as regards, Programme 3107, Activity 003 – Fleet Accessories, Activity 004 – Fleet Servicing, Activity 006 – Procurement of Fuel and Lubricants and Activity 008 – Motor Vehicle Insurance, they have all been realigned to Programme 3107 – Transport Management.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, in line with the explanation given by the hon. Deputy Minister, does it mean that we have now discarded the Activity-Based Budget because now we are aggregating various activities into one Vote?

Mr Mwango: Mr Chairperson, we have not discarded these activities. They are inter-related.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lufuma: Mr Chairperson, can I know the relevance of keeping these items in the Yellow Book because it is too huge and if there are items that are not wanted, they should be discarded.

Mr Mwango: Mr Chairperson, these activities were budgeted for, this year. For next year, they have been moved to another programme. We are just being transparent by including them.

 I thank you, Sir.

Vote 27/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 27/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 27/06 – (Public Service Management Division – Payroll Management Establishment Control (PMEC) Support Services Department – K13,275,285).

Mr Miyanda (Mapatizya): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3070 Activity 700 – PMEC Contractual Obligations – K3,792,000. There was nothing which was budgeted for this year, but there is an allocation for next year. I would like to find out the reasons for this amount. What obligations are being referred to here?

Mr Mwango: Mr Chairperson, this activity is required to cater for contractual obligations to the System Analysis Programme (SAP) and Zambia Telecommunications Company Limited (ZAMTEL).

I thank you, Sir.

Prof. Lungwangwa: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 3070, Activity 003 – PMEC System Management. Why is there is no amount allocated to this important activity for this year? 

Mr Mwango: Mr Chairperson, this activity has been realigned to Programme 3070, Activity 011 – System Upgrade – K1,920,000, Activity 001 – Payroll Processing – K800,000 and Activity 700 – PMEC Contractual Obligations – K3,792,000.

I thank you, Sir.

Mufalali (Senanga): Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 3070, Activity 001 – Payroll Processing, Activity 004 – Personal Emoluments, Activity 005 – Sensitisation, Activity 017 – Payroll and Financing Management Systems and Activity 033 – Financial Management Systems. Why have no allocations been made to these programmes this year?

Mr Mwango: Mr Chairperson, all these activities have been realigned to Programme 3070, Activity 001 – Payroll Processing – K800,000. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Vote 27/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 46 – (Ministry of Health – K2,646,390,446).

The Minister of Health (Dr Kasonde): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for this opportunity to present my statement in support of the Ministry of Health’s Budget for 2014. I shall do so in three parts. Firstly, I will cast a broad view of the allocations to my ministry. Secondly, I shall present a selection of some of the many achievements during 2013 and thirdly, I shall draw your attention to the activities that we propose to implement in 2014.

Mr Chairperson, the health sector has been allocated K4.23 billion in 2014 for implementing various health service programmes and this represents 9.9 per cent of the total National Budget. This proportional decrease is against the background of the budget being K3.6 billion in 2013, which represented 11.3 per cent of the National Budget. However, I hasten to mention that in real terms, the 2014 Budget represents an increase of over K2.5 billion over the year 2013, which was at K3.6 billion. 

Sir, I am glad to mention that continued increase in the health budget is a clear demonstration of the PF Government’s commitment to improving the health of our people, starting in 2011 and 2012 when 8.6 per cent, representing K1.7 trillion and 9.3 per cent, representing K2.5 trillion of the National Budget was allocated to health respectively. 

Mr Chairperson, of the K4.23 billion budget of the health sector for 2014, K2.6 billion is meant for the Ministry of Health and the difference is meant for the Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Child Health. The allocated funds to the Ministry of Health will be used to implement various programmes that include service delivery at second and third level hospitals, various infrastructure development projects, purchase and distribution of drugs and medical supplies and training of health workers amongst various programmes.

Sir, in relation to our performance in 2013, my ministry has been working on the need to improve and restore public confidence in the delivery of quality health services provided at our facilities. The review of the 2013 performance, therefore, deals with the following aspects:

Service delivery

The ministry has continued to focus on maintaining the success in disease control, in particular in Tuberculosis control, scaling up of malaria, direct interventions and the treatment of human immuno-deficiency virus/acquired immuno-deficiency syndrome (HIV/AIDS). The ministry will, in 2014, continue to emphasise the need to provide quality health services in a clean, caring and competent environment (the ‘3C’s’).

Drugs and Medical Supplies

In 2013, the Ministry of Health was allocated a K594 million budget for the procurement of drugs and medical supplies. This has helped to improve the drug supply situation in the sector. Although the availability of drugs and other medical supplies are now around 80 per cent, the ministry has been working on eliminating stock-outs and increasing access in order to ensure quality in health services delivered. 

Mr Chairperson, in this regard, the Ministry of Health, in 2013, embarked on creating regional hubs of the Medical Stores Limited. Furthermore, the hub and last mile distribution has also been introduced to enhance efficiency and effectiveness in drug distribution. So far, one hub in Choma is operational and the Chipata hub is planned for opening before the end of the year. Further, the warehousing capacity at Medical Stores Limited has been increased by introducing additional racking. This has led to the creation of an additional 40 per cent of space.

Sir, in order to increase efficiency and reduce pilferage in the drug ordering system, an electronic logistics management information system has been introduced. With reference to mobile health services, from 2011 to 30th September, 2013 a total of 341,364 cases have been seen through the mobile hospital services for which there have been 19,741 operations done. This is in line with the Government’s commitment of taking health services as close to the family as possible. 

Sir, other achievements in the mobile area include air mobile services which had a total of fifty-five evacuations conducted between 2011 and 2013. The use of marine ambulances located in six provinces has resulted in twenty-six patients being evacuated from various places around the country in 2012 and 2013. Twenty-three evacuations were made in the first quarter of 2013 from places such Kilwa Island in Luapula, Kakulunda in the Western Province and Kavalamanja in Lusaka Province.

Mr Chairperson, with regard to infrastructure, the Ministry of Health, in 2013, continued to rehabilitate, upgrade and construct new facilities in order to improve service delivery and increase access to cost-effective health care.

Sir, the total resource envelop from the Government-generated funds in the 2013 Budget amounted to K187 million for infrastructure development. 

These funds have been targeted at upgrading general hospitals, construction of district hospitals and staff accommodation. There has also been rehabilitation and extension of health facilities and construction of health posts. 

Sir, in 2013, the Ministry of Health is working on the thirty-one district hospitals that are at different stages of construction in all the ten provinces of Zambia. 110 facilities are under rehabilitation and thirty-six housing units are under construction. The Government has, in 2013, allocated an amount of K204 million from the Eurobond towards the upgrading of second and tertiary level hospitals; these hospitals being the University Teaching Hospital (UTH), Ndola Central Hospital, Kitwe Central Hospital and Livingstone General Hospital. The funds allocated are being utilised to modernise and upgrade the infrastructure and procure specialised medical equipment in these facilities. The process of upgrading these facilities has already commenced with rehabilitation works on going at the UTH and the construction of the new Medical and Emergency Unit is expected to commence soon. This measure is aimed at addressing the current challenges of patient management at the UTH Filter Clinic. 

Sir, in addition, the ministry has commenced with the process of constructing the following district hospitals:
(a)    Chipata;

(b)    Mulobezi;

(c)    Mungwi;
 
(d)    Kazungula;
 
(e)    Kawambwa; and
 
(f)    Chililabombwe. 
Mr Chairperson, in a previous communication, I have already referred to the health posts that will be constructed in the course of 2014. Furthermore, works for the implementation of Phase II of the Cancer Diseases Hospital have reached an advanced stage. Once completed this year, this project will provide 220 in-patient facility and diagnostic equipment. These works which are currently progressing well are expected to be completed by the end of the year, 2013. 

Medical Equipment

Mr Chairperson, in 2013, K110.9 million was allocated for medical equipment. The funds were for equipping health facilities with modern equipment. The following procurements were made in 2013:
(a)    an oxygen plant;

(b)    imaging and laboratory equipment and gastrulation laboratory to the UTH; 

(c)    hospital linen; 

(d)    dental laboratory; 

(e)    laundry, kitchen, ophthalmology and physiotherapy equipment for other existing provincial and district hospitals; 

(f)    cross match equipment for Levy Mwanawasa Hospital and various equipment for various level one hospitals, zonal health centres and health posts; 

(g)    four computed tomography (CT) scan machines for the UTH, Ndola Central Hospital, Kitwe Central Hospital and Livingstone General Hospital have been procured under the Eurobond funding; and 

(h)    models and equipment for various training schools. 
Human Resources

Mr Chairperson, to address the challenges of human resources in the Zambian health sector, the ministry has been working on re-organising health workforce planning, recruitment, retention and motivation which are critical components of a comprehensive health care delivery system. 

Sir, the Ministry of Health was allocated K31.8 million which has been used in 2013 to recruit a total of 1,736 trained professionals throughout the country with the overall objective of ensuring that adequate and equitable distribution of appropriate skilled or qualified health workers are available to provide quality health services. Out of the 1,736 officers recruited, about seventy-eight were junior resident medical officers, thirty senior medical officers, ten dental surgeons, five consultants and nine senior registrars. Upon completion of internship from Ndola Central, Kitwe Central and Livingstone General Hospitals, forty-five medical officers have been posted to different facilities around the country. In addition, 237 officers were sponsored for long-term training programmes in various specialist fields. In order to further bridge the skills gap in our health workers, the ministry introduced two training programmes under the Lusaka School of Nursing. These are the Critical Care Nursing Programme and Combined Nursing and Mid-wifery Nursing Programme. The first graduates of the latter programme are expected in 2016. 

Health Information and Research

Sir, in order to improve data capturing in 2013, the ministry has been working on rolling out the Hospital Health Management Information System (HMIS). This is so because information is critical for evidence-based planning. The conducting of Zambia Demographic Health Survey (DHS) has commenced and is expected to be completed soon. The DHS Report will be very useful in knowing how far we have gone in the attainment of millennium development goals (MDGs), which will come to end in the year 2015. Additionally, the National Health Research Conference (NHRC) was held and was very successful. Further, the ministry, in conjunction with other stakeholders, is conducting a National Tuberculosis (TB) Prevalence Survey. 

Health Care Financing

Mr Chairperson, in 2013, the ministry has made tremendous progress in working out the mechanism for enhancing financial sustainability in the health sector. The Ministry of Health has also conducted and completed the National Health Accounts Resource Tracking for the period 2007 to 2010. In order to improve the resource allocation to second and third level hospitals, the Ministry of Health finalised the resource allocation formula for second and third level hospitals. The resource allocations formula has been used to allocate resources for the second and third level hospitals for 2014 to 2016 in the context of the medium-term framework. The Ministry of Health has further commenced the process of conducting the health household expenditure survey so as to determine the amount that the household spends on health. 

Sir, on leadership and governance, following the adoption of the Governance and Management Capacity Strengthening Plan by the Government and co-operating partners, the Ministry of Health has, in 2013, continued to implement its short, medium and long-term activities from the plan. Its main emphasis has been a prudent and efficient utilisation of resources with a focus on service delivery. In terms of policy, I wish to mention that, in 2013, the following Bills were enacted:
(a)    the National Health Research Act, No. 2 of 2013; and 

(b)    Medicines and Allied Substances Act, No. 3 of 2013. 
Priority Areas of Focus for 2014

Sir, the Ministry of Health was re-organised in 2011 so as to better focus on secondary and tertiary level services, training institutions, drugs and medical supplies and statutory bodies. It is for this reason that, in 2014, the ministry will continue to invest in quality health care in order to ensure attainment of universal access by all Zambians. To achieve this, human resource for health, drugs and medical supplies, service delivery and infrastructure development are critical to the sector and, therefore, have been prioritised. For example, with regard to drugs and medical supplies, the Ministry of Health has been allocated a total of K738 million. This represents an increase of 24.3 per cent compared to the K594 million allocated in 2013.  This amount will go a long way in providing medicines and medical supplies at all levels of the health care system. I wish to mention that the Government has taken keen interest in ensuring that drugs are available to all levels of health care and at all health facilities on time.  

Mr Chairperson, the ministry, through the Medical Stores Limited, will continue to implement regional hubs from which drugs will be distributed to the lower levels such as health posts. This decentralisation of drug storage and distribution of essential medicines is expected to significantly reduce the current drug shortages in the facilities, as the services will be made close to the facilities.

Mr Chairperson, however, I must caution that pilferage has proved a greater threat as availability has increased. We shall continue to pursue the perpetrators of this crime with the vigour which has already been shown.{mospagebreak}

Sir, patients from highly specialised imaging services such as CT scans, Magnetic Resonance Imaging (MRI) and cath laboratory have, for many years, been referred abroad for diagnosis and interventions. To mitigate this, the ministry has procured these services for provision of specialised imaging so that the service can be brought as close to the family as possible. To ensure effectiveness and prompt provision of specialised imaging interventions, procurement of specialised supply for CT scan, MRI and cath laboratory have been given an independent budget of K6.8 million under the Drug and Medical Supplies Budget. The aim is to ensure a continuous supply of these specialised medical supplies and to promote non-interruption of service delivery and reduce the number of referrals abroad for patients and clients needing specialised imaging interventions. 

Infrastructure and Equipment

Mr Chairperson, in relation to infrastructure development and medical equipment, K245.7 million and K66.6 million have been allocated for 2014 respectively. These funds will go towards construction and rehabilitation of hospitals, health centres, training schools and the upgrading of tertiary health services. Specifically, these funds will be used to continue with the infrastructure programmes towards construction of district hospitals with emphasis being placed on scaling up the programmes to those districts that are currently not served by first level institutions, upgrading of tertiary level institutions to provide specialised tertiary and third level health care, implementation, of course, of the 650 health posts countrywide, continued rehabilitation of health facilities and training institutions, construction of the National Health Training School which will be done in phases and construction of the Tropical Diseases Research Centre and equipping of various health facilities in the country. 

Mr Chairperson, in an effort to address the human resource gap, the Ministry of Health recently launched the National Training Operational Plan, 2013 to 2016, which outlines its intention to increase the production of staff in the training institutions. With regard to capacity development or in-service training, an allocation of K16 million has been made to capacity building in 2014. There has been an increase proposed from K6 million, the previous year. The fund is meant to cater for the number of continuing in-service students pursuing specialised training that the ministry is currently sponsoring. Additionally, funds will also cater for all medical doctors pursing the Master of Medicine Programme and the Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Child Health will be catered for under the same training programme.

Mr Chairperson, furthermore, the ministry will continue to focus on dismantling staff debt on staff retention and training and development of health workers among other areas. With regard to information and research, the Ministry of Health will, in 2014, focus on concluding the works that have commenced on the DHS. The DHS will be very useful in checking the progress towards the attainment of millennium development goals (MDG). The results will further help the Government to track the MDG progress and implementation of various social and economic developments polices and programmes. The Government Bill for the establishment of the National Health Research Authority was, of course, enacted hence the ministry will focus on establishing that Health Research Authority in 2014. 

Health Care Financing

Mr Chairperson, the focus for the Ministry of Health in 2014 will be to increase the finances available to the health sector through sustainable means so as to improve service delivery. This will, therefore, increase sustainable funding to the sector which is a necessary step towards achieving universal health care coverage and provision of access to quality health care. Furthermore, the ministry is scheduled to complete the health household survey that will commence in the last quarter of this year. The ministry will also undertake the National Health Accounts Analysis to cover the period 2011 and 2012. Tracking of health resources better helps the ministry to set priorities for use of resources during allocation and also to determine how allocated resources are spent and on whom.

Mr Chairperson, in terms of governance issues, in 2014, the ministry will continue to work on the Management Capacity Strengthening Plan which takes into consideration prudent and efficient utilisation of resources with the focus on service delivery. 

Mr Chairperson, with regard to policy issues, the ministry successfully developed the National Health Policy which has since been approved by Cabinet. The ministry will also collaborate with relevant stakeholders to speed up the implementation of the National Decentralised Policy. Further, the ministry will undertake, finalise and adopt the basic health care package, implement the community health worker strategy and review the sector wide approach or SWAP co-ordinating mechanisms. 

Mr Chairperson, as I conclude, I wish to note that 2014 is a jubilee year and we want to record the greatest achievements in the health sector. Specifically, we have decided to focus on radically reducing the need for patients to travel abroad for treatment. To this end, before the end of the year, my ministry will be unveiling a programme of harnessing relevant services to locally cater for treatment, particularly, surgical treatment. We shall effectively be transforming the list of cases treated abroad into an agenda for improving our services. We have a reason to believe that we shall succeed. This is because the competent health workers, resulting from the expansion of training capacity, which has been funded, will come into force. The improvement in drug supply, which will result from the much-increased budget allocation, will become available and there will be improvement in infrastructure which will result in increased investment in the sector.

 To all this, it must be added that the proven support from both sides of this august House for universal health coverage through a clean, caring and competent health service delivery has been shown by the contributions made by the hon. Members of Parliament through the Constituency Development Funds (CDF). With this concerted effort towards health sector development, we are certain that our great country will be able to achieve universal health coverage thereby reducing the much suffering and poverty related to disease.

Mr Chairperson, it is in this spirit that I invite hon. Members to approve the budget for the Ministry of Health.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Mr Chairperson, I thank you …

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised. 

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for according me this opportunity to raise this serious procedural point of order. 

Mr Chairperson, I heard the hon. Minister of Health say that he is not only presenting the budget for his ministry, but also that of the Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Child Health. 

I would like to find out from you, Sir, how we will debate this particular budget considering that the hon. Minister of Community Development, Mother and Child Health will not be available after this debate to respond to the issues we will raise today.

Secondly, when we pass a budget for a particular ministry, the controlling officer is accountable for that particular budget. 

Mr Muntanga: Yes!

Mr Mwiimbu: Who is going to account for the money we are going to allocate to the Ministry of Health? Will it be the hon. Minister of Health or the PS in the Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Child Health? 

Mr Muntanga: Or Dr Kaseba?

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, we are aware that health posts and other health facilities in the country fall under the Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Child Health and we are now debating issues of health. Under the Ministry of Community Health and whatever, is it Father’s Health? 

Hon. UPND Members: Mother’s health. 

Mr Mwiimbu: Right, mother. There is no father’s health. 

Laughter 

Mr Mwiimbu: There is no vote for these clinics. There is no vote for the personnel in these clinics. How do we debate this particular matter? I am confused and I do not want to be part of their confusion. 

Mr Muntanga: Correct!

Mr Mwiimbu: We want your guidance, Sir, on whether you can now allow us to debate the Ministry of Health and the Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Child Health because the issues that affect us mostly have now been taken to the Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Child Health, and yet the money is under the Ministry of Health. Therefore, how do we proceed to debate this matter? 

Mr Chairperson, I need your serious ruling on this very serious issue to enable us to debate these issues prudently. 

Mr Muntanga: Yes!

The Chairperson: If I understood the policy statement by the hon. Minister of Health, he referred to certain aspects of the monies that are under his ministry, but will cover the Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Child Health.

He was not presenting a policy statement on both ministries because on our programme of work, we will consider the Ministry Community Development, Mother and Child Health under Head 45, which is not on this Order Paper. 

The difficulties obviously are that since the change in the ministries, it goes without saying that some aspects that are discussed under the Ministry of Health such as health posts, which we were told will eventually go to the Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Child Health, understandably, will come under both heads and it will be allowed to discuss these issues under the Ministry of Health.

However, the bottom line is that the hon. Minister of Health was presenting a policy statement on the Ministry of Health and that the hon. Minister of Community Development, Mother and Child Health will do so when we come to consider his Head. This is the explanation, but just in case it has not been understood, …

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, I need your further explanation. According to our procedures, the money we are discussing today …

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order, Hon. Mwiimbu!

I do not think that we should enter into a dialogue. The best you can do is file a question. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: No, it would be too late. 

The Chairperson: That is the only way. We have two different Heads and I am saying that, for now, in discussing the Ministry of Health, if you want to refer to health posts you can do so and when it comes to the policy statement by the Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Child Health, you will be allowed to refer to health posts as well. That is all I am saying. These are two different Heads. 

Hon. Miyutu, can you continue. 

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, in support of the Vote for the Ministry of Health, I want to add a word in support of the ministry. This support is from the bottom of the hearts of the people of Kalabo. You see, at the bottom of the heart …

Laughter

Mr Miyutu: … is where the strength to pump blood lies. Without the heart, a human being cannot exist. 

Mr Chairperson, health without food is not complete. For drugs to function well in our bodies so that we recover, there must be food. This budgetary allocation may be sufficient for urban areas like Lusaka, but I do not know how much of this amount will reach outlying areas. If I brought a clip of the patients in Kalabo District Hospital that need feeding, you would be saddened and disheartened.  

Mr Chairperson, this money is a drop in the ocean. If a patient is admitted to Kalabo District Hospital, he/she will only have one meal which is nshima and beans and, thereafter, be given treatment. How quick will the recovery be? It will probably take years and you know what happens when an illness lasts too long. Something else that is not positive happens. 

Mr Chairperson, I pity the hon. Minister and the working staff because they have enormous challenges which cannot be overcome. The Ministry of Health should have been allocated a substantial amount of money which would facilitate a great change so that these health institutions really provide the health services required. 

Mr Chairperson, if you went to Kalabo and looked at the district hospital compound where the members of staff live, you would not desire to live there. We are now in the rainy season and as they look up their ceilings, they are able to see the clouds and they know that their household goods will be soaked once it rains. Therefore, they have to start shifting their household goods to a safer place within the house where rains will not sip through. Imagine a nurse being on duty in a ward and it starts to rain. It is either she will agree to have her household goods soaked or attend to patients. What type of service is that? How would you rate it?

Mr Chairperson, I am not in support of the split of these ministries or the services. The creation or the relationship of the Ministry of Health and the Ministry of Community Development Mother and Child Health is not clear. I know what happens in this country. What happens is that those of us who live in the rural areas are not counted. The idea here is that the Ministry of Health should cater for the hospitals, which are mostly in urban areas, so that the people in urban areas receive the actual service while those in the rural areas remain un-served. I know this is the idea. 

Mr Chairperson, a similar situation happened in the Ministry of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication. The Road Development Agency has been tasked to control most of the urban works where they put a tarred road on top of another tarred road.

Laughter

Mr Miyutu: Then, Sir, the roads in the rural areas are put …

Hon UPND Members: RRU.

Mr Miyutu: … under the Rural Roads Unit (RRU) where not even gravel roads are worked on. You see how discriminatory it is and how unpleasant it is to live in the rural part of Zambia. If you asked us, in the villages, where we would like to live, we would tell you that we also want to live in the urban areas.

Mr Lungu: Come to Chawama.

Mr Miyutu: I would not want to be in Chawama because I do not want to be axed.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: Pangas.

Mr Miyutu: Where I stay, Mr Chairperson, we do not use axes and pangas to axe others. No. We use those axes and pangas to chop wood.

Interruptions

Mr Miyutu: Not human beings. It is here where we hear of people cutting other people’s throats.

Laughter

Mr Miyutu: Sir, I do not feel that the Government actually has a heart like that of a human being. Last time I said that those who go to school come back without having acquired anything. It is like the creation of these institutions is for a few individuals to earn a living. Otherwise, their creation is not from the point of view of truth. How would you feel to be in a ministry which is not servicing the people? I heard the hon. Minister refer to the funding or budgeting as ‘much’. However, if you went to Namatindi Rural Health Centre, you would find a queue of patients waiting for medication, and yet there is no medicine to give them. How much is this ‘much’? Is it much or less? That is why I say that this budgetary allocation is a drop in the ocean. Whoever is involved in coming up with this (lifting the Yellow Book) should have a human heart. Let us place money where it benefits the people who do not get anything from the Government. In some rural areas, you do not even realise that there is a Government in place.

Mr Antonio: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, you do not make that realisation because there is nothing to see in the rural areas.

Hon Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, in some places, you do not even have a staff house for that worker who is supposed to administer simple medicine such as panadol.

Mr Mwanza: Hammer!

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, the panadol that is administered to the people in the rural areas is not enclosed in a sachet. 

Laughter

Mr Miyutu: It is handed out from tins.

Laughter

Mr Mwanza: Hammer!

Mr Miyutu: You can imagine how unfair it is.

Mr Mwanza: Kalabo, hammer!

Mr Miyutu: However, Sir, at some institutions here in Lusaka, the panadol is individually sealed so that the person the sealed tablet is administered to is the one who breaks this seal to take the tablet. In Kalabo, it is not like that. It is an open tin. I do not know how many tablets are contained in a tin.  It could be thousands or millions.

Mr Sing’ombe: It is in a bucket.

Mr Miyutu: You can imagine how unfair it is to human beings.

Hon Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
 
Mr Miyutu: When are we going to have a serious hearted Government?

Mr Antonio: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, when? I was expecting that, maybe, this Government would to have a heart for those rural people.

Mr Mwanza: Hammer, hammer!

Mr Miyutu: However, it is saying that it cannot service the people because they did not vote for it. There is only one Government and it must serve the entire country.

Mr Antonio: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyutu: When you say you cannot serve other parts of the country because they did not vote for you, I think you should pray to the Almighty so that he can forgive you.

Mr Mufalali: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyutu: This is because you are in the Government to serve even the people who did not vote for you. 

Dr Mwali: Do you pray yourself?

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, if I answer those hecklers, they will commit suicide tomorrow.

Laughter

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Miyutu: They will commit suicide tomorrow.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order! 

When you are called upon to observe order, do just that. Indeed, this serves to remind hecklers. As I have done before, let me refer to the long ruling which was made today by the Hon. Mr Speaker. We should be guided by that. If you make running commentaries while seated and I pretend not to hear you, the person debating may hear you and that is what has happened. The hon. Member heard you and if he says something that you do not like, you will be the first to rise on a point of order. Do not start things which you cannot handle. Let us observe the decorum and dignity of the House by doing what is right. Do not make commentaries while seated.

Can the hon. Member for Kalabo, continue.

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, there is a saying that the stone that the builders rejected was once used to complete a house somewhere. This is stated in one of the books in the world. When some people got into the Government, they condemned the mobile hospitals. Indeed, I read in some media publication that these mobile hospitals were a waste of money. However, today, again, in the media, it is like those mobile hospitals, which were condemned, have been glorified.

Mr Mwiimbu: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyutu: What is surprising, Mr Chairperson, is that the people who condemned the mobile hospitals are now praising them. In the same vein, we want those mobile hospitals to reach Kalabo.

Mr Mwanza: Hammer!

Mr Miyutu: Mr Speaker, ever since the inception of the mobile hospital, Kalabo has only benefited once. Maybe, because the word ‘once’ has four letters, it may be confusing.

Laughter

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, let me put it this way, the mobile hospital has only made a single trip to Kalabo and since then, we have not benefitted.

Mr Chairperson, when I had a look at the mobile hospitals, I realised that they were really hospitals and not that permanent structure we have in Kalabo. How I wish we could have that mobile as a permanent hospital.

Laughter

Mr Miyutu: I think that is a definition of the hospital, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Sing’ombe: How you wished it broke down there so that you could keep it.

Interruptions

Mr Miyutu: Yes, you can tell that this is a real hospital by the way the workers are dressed and attending to the patients. You can tell that these are …

Dr Chikusu: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah, ba Doctor!

The Chairperson: Order!

Dr Chikusu: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Member of Parliament for Kalabo Central who is on the Floor in order to continue using hand and finger gestures when debating, and yet you earlier ruled that out of order? The hon. Member is not supposed to use his hands.

Hon. Opposition Members: But you are also using your hands!

Dr Chikusu: Is he in order, Sir.

Laughter

The Chairperson: That is an interesting point of order. It is a good observation. The hon. Deputy Minister of Health, who has raised that of point of order on the hon. Member of Parliament for Kalabo Central, also uses his hands when debating. So, it is difficult to make a ruling on this one. The ruling we made yesterday was on clapping. I asked the hon. Member not to clap. However, when he uses his hands to make a gesture, then, he is emphasising a point just as you were also doing. So, he is in order.

You may continue.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyutu: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. 

So, in other countries which make use of the mobile hospitals, they know that these are part of the Out-Patient Department (OPD). Therefore, it is not something that we can dance to because it is part and parcel of the OPD. This means that the Ministry of Health should increase on the fleet of mobile hospitals so that they can save as an outreach section of the OPD.

Sir, before I forget, there was a very sad situation that happened in Lusaka. You remember that a few days ago, someone was killed and there was a report from the UTH, not from a clinic, but the UTH …

Mr Miyutu clapped his hands.

The Chairperson: Aah, why are you clapping your hands?

Laughter

The Chairperson: You are out of order.

Laughter

Mr Miyutu: Mr Report …

Laughter

Mr Miyutu: I beg your pardon, Mr Chairperson, the report which was given …

Laughter

The Chairperson: Order!

That was obviously a slip of the tongue. 

You may continue.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, the first report from the postmortem conducted at the UTH revealed that the person died of natural illness. However, the second postmortem affirmed the suspicions of the relatives and police who suspected the person may have been murdered. My question is: If a Government institution can give misguiding information to the public, will the public have trust and confidence in that institution again?

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Mr Miyutu: So, where are the ethics of what they learn as medical officers? We want medical ethics in these offices at the table and on the door …

The Chairperson: Order!

The hon. Member’s time has expired.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza (Solwezi West): Mr Chairperson, thank you very much for according me the opportunity to debate this Vote. In debating this Vote on the Floor of the House, I would like to support it with great pity for the hon. Minister of Health.

Mr Muntanga: Eeh!

Mr Mwanza: Mr Chairperson, however, I would like to make the following observations with regard to the North-Western Province because that is the area where I come from. In this area, we do not have medicines such as panadols that my friend was talking about in a lot of health infrastructures dotted around the constituency.

Mr Chairperson, today, the North-Western Province represents an area of growth. Most people have moved to either Solwezi, Lumwana, while staying in Manyama, or Kalumbila so that they can get jobs at the mines in these respective areas. As a result of this development, there are shanty compounds that have mushroomed. In view of all these developments that are taking place in the North-Western Province, there is not an equivalent hospital that I can boast about. There is absolutely nothing. So, it means that when these people that are looking for jobs there fall sick, they have to drink herbs, if they want. If they go to a clinic, they will not find panadol or any form of relief. If they do go to the clinic, the health infrastructure is dilapidated.

Mr Chairperson, about six to ten years ago, I went to a clinic where I was told that the person manning the clinic was a First Term Form Four. He is the one heading that clinic and gives drugs to Kaondes, Luvales and Lundas.

Laughter

Mr Mwanza: Mr Chairperson, this is unacceptable. The people of the North-Western Province require decency after all, they are providing the people of Zambia with employment which you cannot find in Mpika or Chinsali.

Laughter

Mr Mwanza: Mr Speaker, they are providing these jobs and so, they must be given the respect they deserve by being provided with proper health facilities such as hospitals in order for them to access drugs. Unfortunately, this is not happening.

Mr Chairperson, having said that, I would like to mention that the North-Western Province does not have the big hospitals such as the UTH, Ndola Central, Kitwe Central and Livingstone General Hospital that the hon. Minister has talked about. Solwezi General Hospital is like …

Interruptions

Mr Mwanza: Mr Chairperson, protect me from the hecklers.

Laughter

The Chairperson: Ignore them!

Mr Mwanza: Thank you very much.

Mr Chairperson, Solwezi General Hospital is very small. In fact, this Government has indicated that Kansanshi Mine should develop it by adopting wards, but this is the duty of the Government. That adoption is questionable because the PF Government thinks that the people of the North-Western Province did not vote for it and, therefore, it cannot provide them development of any kind. This is most unfortunate.

In my own constituency, Sir, I have gone to some clinics which are dilapidated and there is no trained staff at most of them. The only people you can find are the elderly people who are retired from the Government and have been seconded to work in these clinics. Where are the young people? The answer is they cannot go to Solwezi, Chovwe or any of those places I have mentioned because there is no accommodation and schools to which their children can go.

So, Sir, I agree with my brother, the hon. Member of Parliament for Kalabo Central, that this Government does not respect the people who come from the rural areas. I represent a rural constituency which extends to the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) where most of you have never been. There are no drugs at the clinics there. However, people are looking forward to the day when they will have big hospitals in Lumwana and Kalumbila, where they can have these facilities close to their doorstep. At the moment, there is nothing. My heart bleeds because there is nothing to talk about in the areas we come from.

Sir, let me now move to the issue of training. Training is provided at the UTH and any of these hospitals I have mentioned. In addition, there are also private institutions, such as the Apex University, which offer training here in Lusaka. Most of the people that go to Apex University are, sometimes, school leavers and people in-service to be employed by the Ministry for Community Development, Mother and Child Health, which is a mouthful of a ministry …

Laughter

Mr Mwanza: … those are the people who need to go to those areas. The Ministry of Health is supposed to sponsor some of its staff. However, if it does, it never pays Apex University. When the ministry decides to pay, it takes three to four months before that payment is made. How does the Ministry of Health expect Apex University to grow? The ministry controls the labour force there as well as the trainees, and yet it is not able to train them sufficiently. The previous speaker referred to the fact that in Kalabo, doctors drive the question of ethics. The nurse in Mwinilunga or Kasempa will tell you that do not treat that one, balilwala kale balya, meaning that person is sick. So, where is the confidentiality? Our training professionals must ensure that they preserve the integrity of the patient. We are very fortunate to have an hon. Minister of Health who is an experienced medical doctor, just as the hon. Deputy Minister who is sitting next to him.

Mr Muntanga: And Dr Kaseba.

Mr Mwanza: I am coming to that.

Laughter

Mr Mwanza: Mr Chairperson, these areas that I am talking about have no drugs.

The Chairperson: You must also ignore the heckler on your right.

Laughter

Mr Mwanza: Mr Chairperson, coming to what Hon. Muntanga has raised, I want to say that the First Lady’s job is to be at State House.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza: Sir, we have approved a Vote here for the First Lady to enjoy at State House. I am at a loss because I do not know who the spokesperson for the Ministry of Health is. Every day, the First Lady is in the media …

Mr Lungu: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Lungu: Mr Chairperson, I rise on a very serious point of order. Is the hon. Member in order to drag outsiders, who cannot defend themselves, into our debate.

Sir, I need your serious ruling.

The Chairperson: The serious ruling is that we should not drag the First Lady into our debate. I am not sure whether you need to mention the First Lady in your debate. You can debate that issue in general terms and not specifically talk about the First Lady. That is not in order.

You may continue.

Mr Mwanza: Mr Chairperson, I would like to say that the people of Zambia, who are listening, are able to see and judge for themselves. The question that the hon. Member of Parliament for Kalabo Central Parliamentary Constituency asked concerning mobile hospitals is a critical one. It is critical because in rural areas, whether you like it or not, these are the hospitals which are well stocked with all the drugs. By using these mobile hospitals, medical operations are being carried out in Choma and Serenje, and yet the PF, when it was still in the Opposition, vehemently opposed the purchase of mobile hospitals. It did not want to have anything to do with mobile hospitals but, today, these hospitals are the darling of the PF Government. That is the first inconsistency. The second inconsistency is that the training of doctors and nurses at the UTH and countrywide is not thorough enough. In fact, I understand that the newly-established private training schools are not doing so well compared to the ones that were established earlier. Again, the Ministry of Health should make sure that it looks into these complaints to see whether the health of patients is respected by the medical personnel.

Mr Chairperson, the North-Western Province is growing and these issues of hospitals are really not talked about because they are not there. What we have in the province is hospital trainee staff coming from other areas but, this is unacceptable. In fact, it is important for you to note that the training of nurses in Solwezi was only undertaken earlier this year. We have never had nursing staff trained from there apart from the nurses which are in two categories, namely the enrolled nurses and the registered nurses. We did not have training for registered nurses for reasons that I do not know, and yet there were training schools everywhere else. Why is that so? It is not right. These things must be applied everywhere. So, my bone of contention here is that the North-Western Province should not remain a Cinderella because it is producing the money to construct the hospitals that were talked about along the line of rail. It is the North-Western Province that is doing that.

Mr Chairperson, it is also important to note that we have wasted so much time on …

Mr Sikazwe: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Sikazwe: Mr Chairperson, thank you for giving me this opportunity to raise this point of order. Is the hon. Member, who is debating, in order to cry foul on having failed to train nurses in his province for twenty years when he has been an hon. Member of Parliament for ten years? The PF has just come into power and we are saying we are embarking on that.

I need your serious ruling, Sir.

The Chairperson: Let us not debate through points of order. I am sure that the hon. Minister of Health will address that when he winds up debate.

Hon. Member, you may continue.

Mr Mwanza: Mr Chairperson, the last point I wanted to hammer is on cancer.

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Members: Hammer, hammer!

Mr Mwanza: Mr Chairperson, many people, as old as I am, some even older, either suffer from prostate cancer, if they are male, while the female folk suffer from cervical cancer. Cervical cancer is talked about more than prostate cancer. So, my appeal to the ministry is that there has to be a balance between prostate cancer patients and cervical cancer patients. The PF Government talks a lot about cervical cancer and not prostate cancer. It is important to balance the two and also consider bringing in a big hospital in the North-Western Province for once. We shall be grateful if the Government did that and it will leave a legacy. However, if it does not do that, …

An hon. Government Member interjected.

Mr Mwanza: I went to school with that man and so I do not appreciate those comments. It is important to note that there are also people in the North-Western Province just like all of us here who are good-looking, happy and healthy. The people of the North-Western Province are also entitled to being happy and live healthy lives. They are producing the money which is developing Zambia and so, they must be respected.

With these remarks, I thank you.

Mr Miyanda (Mapatizya): Mr Chairperson, thank you very much for according me this opportunity to add my voice to the debate on the Vote for the Ministry of Health. Very recently, the hon. Minister of Health had an interview with The Bulletin & Record magazine and he said the following on page 13 of the November, 2013 issue of this publication:

“Our vision is universal health care coverage … The quality of healthcare should increase and be spread across the entire country.”

Mr Chairperson, my main interest is on the hon. Minister’s statement that health care should spread across the entire country. It is the right of every Zambian to have access to quality health care. For the people of the Southern Province, especially those in Mapatizya, living along the border with Zimbabwe, the situation is very bad. Unlike those in Kalabo and Solwezi West, these are people who have actually never seen a Zambian panadol, if there is one. The nearest medical centre for the people of Kamukeza and Bangarare is in Zimbabwe. Since the situation is so bad, these people are forced to cross the Zambezi River without passports. If they are unlucky and they are caught, they remain locked up in Zimbabwean prisons. So, there are Zambians who are sick in Zimbabwean prisons as we speak. This is how sad the situation of health care is in Mapatizya. 

Mr Chairperson, Mapatizya Clinic is 90 km from the Zambia/Zimbabwean Border. However, the sad part is that this clinic does not have a single trained member of staff. The person in charge of administering all the drugs that this clinic receives from Kalomo District Hospital is actually an untrained cleaner who is a casual daily employee (CDE). Since she has been there for a long time, she is like a doctor or nurse to the people around Mapatizya. This is how bad things are.

Mr Chairperson, this is partly why the maternal mortality rate in Kalomo is quite high. There are situations whereby a woman who is already in labour travels 70 km to get to Kalomo District Hospital and when she gets there, she is told that there are complications with her pregnancy and has to go to the theatre. However, there is no theatre at Kalomo District Hospital. This means that she has to go another 40 km to Zimba, which is the nearest place with this facility. There is only one doctor at Zimba Hospital who works twenty-four hours a day. This is a mission hospital and we are thankful to this doctor, a white man, whom I think has committed himself to saving the lives of the people of Kalomo and Zimba.

Mr Chairperson, in the same interview, the hon. Minister of Health also said:

“Malaria used to be the massive killer, and it still is.”

Sir, I agree with the hon. Minister because I am aware that in Mapatizya, it is actually on top of the list of killer diseases. I think this is also the case elsewhere in the country. This is partly because our people are actually reluctant to use mosquito nets that they are given for the intended purpose. They instead use them for fishing.

Mr Mwiimbu: This is because of hunger.

Mr Miyanda: Mr Chairperson, they do this because they live on less than a dollar per day, as we are all aware. They need to eat, but they cannot afford to buy fishing nets. Therefore, they are using the mosquito nets to fish at night. The point I am trying to underscore is that malaria will continue to haunt us no matter how much money we spend on buying mosquito nets to distribute for free to our people because people need to be educated. 

Mr Chairperson, therefore, I think our people need to be educated on this matter. Otherwise, this sad situation will continue and malaria will remain a killer disease in this country. Maybe, this disease is not a problem in the whole of Lusaka, but it certainly exists in some parts of the town, depending on where you live. There are parts of Lusaka where the prevalence of malaria is so bad.

Mr Chairperson, there is also the issue of HIV/AIDS. Indeed, AIDS is a killer and it could be the number one killer. I am aware that there are non-governmental organisations (NGOs) that are now all over the country undertaking HIV/AIDS programmes. They are using our people, who have come out in the open on their HIV positive status. These NGOs are reaping millions of Kwacha from countries in and outside our region that sponsor such programmes. There are people who have become multi-millionaires in our communities by using individuals who openly say that they are HIV positive. 

Mr Chairperson, my appeal to the hon. Minister is that let us control these NGOs, especially in rural areas. I think they have taken advantage of the situation. At the end of the day, the poor fellows in Mapatizya who are HIV positive do not even receive a K1 despite their names and health status being used to bring in millions of Kwacha.

Mr Chairperson, I also note that, in his interview, the hon. Minister said the following: 

“I think if we were to identify only two challenges that really deserve attention, money would be number one … Number two is more human resources.”

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister has also made it clear in this interview that the ministry plans to produce 400 instead of 100 doctors graduating per year. Instead of 2,000, it plans to produce 4,000 nurses every year. However, is the ministry’s 2014 budget of K4.23 billion enough to achieve this plan? It is true that we need more doctors. 

Sir, doctors do not stay in rural hospitals. I think Kalomo District Hospital is an example of this. Doctors have been posted there, but barely two months later, have we heard that they have gone to school. They need to advance anyway. The reason most doctors want to advance their studies is that there is nothing to make them stay in rural areas. Despite there being many sick people in remote places, the facilities are not there. I am aware the ministry is building a hospital in Mapatizya, but until then, the situation is not good.

Mr Chairperson, we have Namunyanga Mission, which I would call a clinic. It is run by missionaries. This clinic is in Kalomo, which was the first town in Zambia. These missionaries are from the Church of Christ and I think they arrived in Zambia way back in the 1920s. I want to appeal to the hon. Minister, and through him the Head of State, to accord Namunyanga Mission the status of a hospital, just like Paul Mushindo College has been upgraded into a university. Namunyanga Mission and Paul Mushindo College were both started by missionaries.

Hon. UPND Member: Mushindo.

Mr Miyanda: Mushindo is somewhere else. There is also the issue of ambulances, hon. Minister. For Kalomo and Zimba districts, there is only one ambulance, which I am aware is not a Government procured one, but donated. This is the same ambulance that has to move 90km into Mapatizya and 150 km in Dundumwezi. This is only one vehicle. Surely, no matter how strong this vehicle could be, hon. Minister, the lifespan, with the kind of roads that we have, is very limited. Please, hon. Minister, consider the rural Kalomo, Zimba, Monze, Mazabuka and Chikankata for ambulances.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyanda: The more ambulances the Government distributes, the more lives it will save.

Mr Chairperson, there is the issue of the Flying Doctor Service and other mobile health services. Yes, we have heard that they are there. However, most of our people have not seen these good things. As I say, most of our people do not have the health care facilities. Our appeal to you, hon. Minister, is that, please, let the mobile health services visit the ‘rural rural’, as my brother from Lukulu West would put it. We have people who are so poor that they cannot even have their teeth extracted because they cannot afford to travel to Kalomo. Sadly, our people are dying of toothaches. Why can you not be so kind as to send the mobile health service once in a while? Maybe, we will be asking for too much if we ask for the Flying Doctor Service and so, we just ask for the mobile health service. 

With these few words, I thank you, Sir.

Mr Bwalya (Lupososhi): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Floor of the House and support the budget for the Ministry of Health. 

Mr Chairperson, indeed, a healthy nation is a productive one and, therefore, when people are healthy, it means that development will be seen in that particular country. This ministry is very critical to the development of this country. If it is well run, it will obviously contribute to the reduction in the cost of health care thereby making sure that we channel the savings to other areas in need of services because prevention is better than cure and, therefore, it is important that we take the service closer to the people.

Mr Chairperson, I note that there are a number of development ventures in terms of infrastructure that the ministry has undertaken and intends to undertake in 2014. I know that in the Southern Province alone, Namwala District Hospital is under construction, the works at Choma District Hospital are in Phase III and Gwembe District Hospital is under construction while Kalomo, Mulobezi and Mazabuka are being upgraded.

Ms Lubezhi: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Ms Lubezhi: Mr Chairperson, I am seated here comfortably struggling to follow what the hon. Member is trying to say and then he mentions Namwala District Hospital without informing this House that the construction of that hospital was started by the MMD. Is he in order?

The Chairperson: Well, there is no restriction in terms of talking. 

Can the hon. Member for Lupososhi continue.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bwalya: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for your protection. I recall that when we are elected as hon. Members of Parliament, we cease to confine ourselves to a particular constituency.

The Chairperson: Just continue with your debate because I have already made a ruling.

Mr Bwalya: Mr Chairperson, I also know that there are a number of hospitals that are being upgraded, as the hon. Minister mentioned. This is what any responsible Government is expected to do. Yes, there are projects that were started by the MMD, but there is continuity in terms of governance and governance demands that once you inherit even the debt, you are expected to pay and honour it.  However, I do not want to dwell on that.

Mr Chairperson, I wanted to give statistics because they are important as they can support decision-making. I am aware that in the Western Province, there is Mongu Hospital and the training school that is being constrcuted in Senanga. I am also aware that in the Northern Province, we also have district hospitals that are being worked on, namely Mpulungu, Mungwi and Luwingu. I am giving this information because this budget must be supported as infrastructure development is the only way to bring health services closer to the people. Unless this is done, we will be singing a song that will never end. 

Mr Chairperson, we want the infrastructure and as we do that, hon. Minister, qualified manpower is critical. We need to have trained manpower to administer medicine to patients and I think that is the cry of every hon. Member of Parliament in here. I note that there is a 3,000 capacity national health training centre that is being constructed at Chainama. It is my prayer that this infrastructure will be put into good use because I know that the people of Lupososhi need the qualified manpower that will be trained here and so it is true for Gwembe. Once this is done, it is very clear that we will have qualified manpower. 

However, as we implement the Budget, I note that on page 669, Programme 5011, Activity 701 – Construction of Mazabuka General Hospital – K6,341,859, Activity 702 – Construction of Muchinga Hospital – K6,341,859, Activity 703 – Construction of Bangweulu Hospital – K6,341,859. There is money provided for the construction of various health infrastructure, especially the general hospitals.

Mr Chairperson, it is this that the Zambian people want and I am pretty sure that wherever we come from in our various constituencies, we want this infrastructure constructed and this money must be put to good use. There is K6,341,859 for each hospital, including Mazabuka, Muchinga and Bangweulu hospitals. This money must be utilised effectively.

The Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the 
Chair]
Mr Bwalya: Mr Chairperson, before business was suspended, I was saying that there is an amount for three hospitals on page 669 of the Yellow Book. I was saying that this money must be put to good use so that we can get credible contractors that will deliver these hospitals within the contract period.

Mr Chairperson, I know that there is an in-patient cancer hospital that has been constructed with a bed capacity of 200. Again, this is a commendable gesture in the sense that it will help in combating cancer diseases.  

Mr Chairperson, there are so many cancer diseases in rural areas where we come from, but people have not been able to access this service. Therefore, with a fully-fledged cancer hospital, we are hopeful, as the people of Lupososhi Constituency, that we should now be able to access this service. We can only appeal that even the cost to access this medical attention is looked into so that it is affordable and accord the people in rural areas a chance to access it.

Mr Chairperson, I am aware that the UTH is being modernised, and this should not just remain in the word itself “modenisation”. We want to see real change and real modernisation at the UTH. Those long queues that characterise the UTH must come to an end so that the people, especially those that bring their sick ones, can quickly be served and attend to other equally important issues. This is because at the end of the day, they need time to go and look for food and money to buy other amenities so that the patient they have taken to the hospital can get good health and, indeed, good food.

Mr Chairperson, there is a concern on the small health shops or should I say the drug stores in rural areas. Where I come from, in Luwingu, the Ministry of Health is confiscating drugs from people who are selling in various shops. I think it is important that the ministry makes it very clear on its policy. What is the stand of the Ministry of Health on this particular issue? I am receiving many phone calls that the Ministry of Health is confiscating these products and we have no clear guidelines on what needs to be done. Remember that in rural areas, it is very difficult to get a qualified pharmacist to administer or sell those drugs because the income that the shop owners get from those drugs is very little for them to be able to employ a qualified pharmacist. My appeal is that as the hon. Minister looks at this, he needs to send clear guidelines to all of us, especially those of us in rural areas where accessibility to drugs, at times, becomes very difficult.

Mr Chairperson, in my closing remarks, I also want to commend the ministry. Yes, the supply of drugs has marginally increased and stabilised. It is my prayer and hope that this will continue. It must be enhanced so that we do not have to wait for a long time or be asked to look for expensive drugs.

Mr Chairperson, finally, I want to say that the issue of human resource still remains critical and I think that it is a cry that I want to repeat. We need to have these health centres manned by those who are qualified and can administer some of these drugs, some of which are quite dangerous to an extent that if the person who is administering gives a wrong dosage, that may result in death. Therefore, hon. Minister, this is another very critical issue that needs to be addressed.

Mr Chairperson, with these few words, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Mtolo (Chipata Central): Mr Chairperson, I thank you very much.

Mr Chairperson, in order to catch the attention of the hon. Minister, I will give a few figures of what we are going through in Zambia. As of this year, all the young ones, who are below the age of five, die in Zambia, because of malnutrition. 45 per cent of children under five are stunted because of poverty. 

Mr Ntundu entered the Assembly Chamber.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mtolo: Mr Chairperson, 37 per cent of our population in the country has no access to safe drinking water. I would like the hon. Minister, with his counterpart, to be reminded that internationally, we are supposed to be spending as a Government, and not as families, at least, K200 per child. However, in this country, we are spending K3 per child.

Mr Chairperson, I would like the hon. Minister and his counterpart in the Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Child Health to know that 67 per cent of our population has no toilet facility. In short, 43 per cent of the population of Zambia is in extreme poverty and, therefore, the question is: How can an hon. Minister of Health fail to utilise his funds which we appropriate here? Part of that money is still at the Treasury. I am sure that I have got the attention of most hon. Members who are present here …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mtolo: … and that was my intention. 

Mr Chairperson, we can appropriate funds here, but we want the money to be utilised. We have a situation where Cabinet hon. Ministers are not utilising the funds in their ministries. There is no excuse to that whatsoever. The Ministry of Health is a victim of that.

Mr Chairperson, as regards the General Nursing Council (GNC), it has a lot of accusations of activities which should not be taking place. I am afraid of using the term “corruption.” This is a council which is responsible for inspecting private hospitals. This is a council responsible for checking on what is happening in private hospitals in terms of giving them accreditation to run. However, all we hear is that there is a lot of corruption. As a consequence, we have a lot of medical officers who are graduating from private clinics who, if examined properly, would not pass the test. So, may the hon. Minister take a closer look at the GNC. It is a very vital aspect of our health discipline.

Sir, regarding the number of medical schools in our country, yes, it is a good thing, but we must make sure that these institutions are visited not only by the agency like the GNC, but also the hon. Minister himself should take time to personally visit and see where the officers who are going to work for his ministry are coming from. It is a source of worry. I have taken personal interest and would be very happy to visit with the hon. Minster if he so wishes.

Mr Chairperson, with regard to equipment, when we are in this House passing this Budget, we should be practical. In this country, how many CT Scans do we have? Have many MRI Scans do we have? How many dialysis machines do we have? Let us be very practical in our budgeting. We should budget for ten CT Scans so that we can put one in each province. We have a lot of deaths because we do not have this equipment in remote areas and people cannot come to Lusaka. If you crack your head from a simple accident and you have a headache, the doctor will not do anything because he cannot examine you to establish the real cause of that headache after an accident. In the process, a patient will die. I can give a practical example of a gentleman who died in Chipata. He was beaten when he went out for a drink. He was in hospital in an unconscious state for almost a month until he succumbed to death. It was an absolutely primitive and unnecessary death. Why? This is because we are not budgeting properly.

Sir, we would like to pass budgetary allocations to medical equipment instead of allocations which are not necessary like shows and AIDS, among other things, things which do not add value to hospitals. What we need is essential equipment which we can afford. There is a lot of money in this budget which is hidden in things which are not necessary.

Mr Chairperson, related to this equipment in the hospitals is equipment in our operating theatres. If this House, with the help of the hon. Minister, can select a number of hon. Members to go to our operating theatres at the UTH, they would come back and refuse to pass this budget for the Ministry of Health because of the pathetic condition under which our doctors are operating. So, what are we passing if we will not buying equipment for our doctors to work with? That is why we end up going to South Africa, Kenya and India for treatment when we have very qualified doctors in our country. So, what are we budgeting for?

Sir, I am very hesitant to pass this budget if essential medical equipment is not looked at. I have said over and over again in this House that if we go to the UTH now, we will be lucky to find methylated spirit or morphine, which is used to anaesthetise patients before an operation. We will be lucky to find proper needles. We need this simple basic equipment to be purchased so that our doctors can operate properly.

Mr Chairperson, it is a crime for the ministry to fail to reorder drugs and make those people who are on therapy suffer. It is a crime for the hon. Minister to fail to order antiretroviral drugs, causing people to stay a while without those drugs because what we know happens is that those patients might not recover and ultimately die. We should be planning ahead as we look at the ministry’s estimates for the following year.

Sir, just like we have a lot of our drugs being sold to neighbouring countries, let us ensure that there are proper checks at medical stores and at the hospitals so that we do not lose our drugs to the commercial and open market.

Mr Chairperson, I believe we need to check these private conventional hospitals and herbal clinics which we are seeing mushrooming in our country. We need to check these institutions closely otherwise we will have immunity developing in this country because people are not being exposed to the right drugs. These colleagues are very aggressive and are giving our patients a lot of these herbal medicines whose efficacy is minimally. It is the responsibility of the Ministry of Health to check these things.

Sir, I will talk briefly about the UTH. According to my understanding, the filter clinic should not have a lot of patients die there because they are there for long periods of time. That is a place where you are supposed to quickly send patients to the right areas. Please, check the operations of that area. People are dying at filter clinics, but this is not supposed to be the case. If possible it would be good to plan for cameras for the UTH so that the nurses can be protected from aggressive patients …

Mr Mutelo: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, I would love to seek your serious ruling.

Sir, the point of order I had raised had its ruling made today and I am thankful for that. However, when should points of order be raised? This is when I am certifying what we debate here and the debates are given to us to see …

The Deputy Chairperson: What is your point of order?

Mr Mutelo: Is it in order to repeat the same point of order? My heart was okay, but as I am doing the certification of the debates of what I said, I quote …

The Deputy Chairperson: What is your point of order?

Mr Mutelo: Is it in order, again, for Hon. M. H. Musukwa on 12th November, 2013, to shout ‘fwaka’ after what I had said?

Laughter 

Mr Mutelo: On the same date, Hon. Malama also shouted ‘fwaka’ …

Laughter 

Mr Mutelo: When I am reading through the certification and I see this, should I keep quiet? Is it in order to raise such points of order when we are certifying our contributions or not? I seek your serious ruling. More ‘fwaka’ has come again.

The Deputy Chairperson: The simple ruling is that if that is the correct transcript of the record, then the person who said ‘fwaka’ as you were debating was definitely out of order and I hope such comments will not occur again because they are demeaning.

Laughter 

Mr Mtolo: Mr Chairperson, before I was interrupted I was saying that …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The comments of ‘fwaka’ come from my right. So, let us be patient and listen attentively as the hon. Member is debating.

Mr Mtolo: I was saying that it would be important for the hon. Minister to consider putting cameras in big hospitals like the UTH because those cameras could protect not only the patients from aggressive nurses, but also the nurses from aggressive patients so that when we have the complaints we are able to play back and see who was in the wrong. 

Mr Chairperson, I would like to move on to infrastructure development. There were a lot of structures that were started by the MMD Government. It would be important for the hon. Minister of Health to make sure that these structures are completed or, indeed, revisited so that some of the plans which were changed are taken back to what they are supposed to be. We have some structures here in Lusaka which were meant to be theatres, but were changed to something else. I am afraid to say that they were changed by the PF Government because, maybe, it did not construct them. Currently, what we have are patients in Chawama and Kanyama who are supposed to go into theatre for operation, have been denied these services because of plans which are not fulfilled.  

Mr Chairperson, may I also talk about complementary and necessary staff such as the surgeons. We have a lot of places that do not have complementary staff and operations are not done. I would, therefore, ask the ministry to work hand-in-hand with colleges which are producing these graduate surgeons so that we can have sufficient staff in this area.  

Sir, in Chipata, we have big townships such as Nabvutika and Muchini which have got no clinics. It is, therefore, very difficult for surgeons to be accommodated at Kapata Clinic, which is the only clinic there. I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister to construct more clinics in Chipata.  

Mr Chairperson, as I conclude, I would like to urge the hon. Minister to fight the appointing authorities who are appointing medical doctors to not so useful places. For example, we have a couple of medical doctors going on the diplomatic mission. These doctors trained to help us in the medical field and not to be sent out as ambassadors or high commissioners. 

Mr Chairperson, with those few remarks, I would like to support the Vote.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, I am aware that there is a vacancy in the PF Government …

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: … and as such, a number of our colleagues will now praise the Government even over issues that they should not be praised for. 

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! As you debate, bear in mind that people have choices. They can decide how to debate, whether to praise or not. 

You may continue.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, thank you for advising me that some hon. Members can praise even where praise is not due. I want to bring to the attention of the House the fact that the confusion that is emanating from the budgeting process should not affect the operations and management of health facilities in this country.  I have noted that the budget we are debating today relates to the Ministry of Health. The clinics and health posts are all budgeted for under the Ministry of Health, but we have to note that the management of these facilities has now been transferred to the Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Child Health. 

Mr Chairperson, I am also aware that in the various districts where we come from, especially in the rural districts, the Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Child Health is headed by Assistant Community Development Officers. Surely, will it be prudent for senior health personnel in these districts to be supervised by an Assistant Community Development Officer …

Mr Nkombo: No.

Mr Mwiimbu: … at district level?

Mr Muntanga: Shame!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, would it be prudent for professionals in these districts to be supervised by a non-professional? The answer is no. What I know and I am made to understand and what the law states pertaining to this budgeting process and the control of the funds is that once you pass a budget, the one who is supposed to be responsible is the Controlling Officer in the specific ministry. It, therefore, follows that the PS in the Ministry of Health will be accountable for the money we are going to pass. He/she will be releasing this money to the Ministry of Health. Surely, is that what we have been looking forward to? The answer is no.

Mr Chairperson, the budget for health personnel is under the Ministry of Health. However, these officers will be reporting to the Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Child Health. We are bringing confusion to a very critical ministry. All of us, especially us, in the rural areas, are aware that this is one of the ministries that affect the lives of our people. However, we have allowed confusion to reign. The construction of the 650 health posts is under the Ministry of Health. They will account for the fund, the construction and the supervision and then they will have a ceremony to hand them over to the Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Child Health. 

Mr Chairperson, surely, are these the health reforms which we have been yearning to achieve in this country? The answer is no. We have been informed by the Government itself that it has decided to have a recruitment freeze. However, under this budget, there are 650 health posts that will be constructed and there are district hospitals that the Government intends to construct. How does it intend to manage these health facilities without personnel? Currently, the existing health facilities are understaffed. If my colleagues were as wise as we are here, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Mwiimbu: … they would have not made that decision. They would not have done it. They would have made certain exceptions …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: … to allow the Ministry of Health to recruit.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: However, they have made a blanket decision not to recruit. Surely, is that prudent?

Mr Nkombo: No.

Mr Mwiimbu: The answer is no.

Mr Chairperson, this afternoon, the people of Luanshya …

Laughter

Mr Kambwili: Luanshya.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, the people of Mansa have lamented the poor health facilities.

Mr Muntanga: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, the people of Mansa are looking for personnel to be recruited.

Mr Muntanga: Hear, hear!

The people of Mansa are looking for good health facilities. 

Mr Nkombo: That is right!

Mr Mwiimbu: The people of Mansa, on whose behalf I am speaking on the Floor of this House, have asked me to remind the PF to ensure that Hon. Kambwili does not do those things he does. 

Laughter 

Mr Lungu: On a point of order, Sir. 

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised. 

Mr Lungu: Mr Chairperson, …

Mr Kambwili: Jack!

Mr Lungu: … I stand on a very serious point of order. Is the hon. Member of Parliament for Monze Central, who knows very well that we are currently busy winding up our campaigns in Mansa, in order to start campaigning on the Floor of this House? 

I need your very serious ruling, Mr Chairperson.

Laughter 

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The serious ruling is that there is no campaign being wedged here. 

Continue, hon. Member for Monze Central. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! 

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, I did not even know that there will be elections in Mansa.

Laughter 

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, the people of Mansa, especially those in Senama and Musaba, are crying for a health post and other health facilities. These facilities are not being given to them. I want to urge the Government to seriously look at the plight of the people of Mansa Central Constituency.  

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! 

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, I would like to appeal to hon. Minister of Health, who is a professional and a gentleman, to look at the death rate in our hospitals and analyse the critical issues that arise there from. I would like to, once again, remind him of the long-winding queues at the UTH of people wanting to get their dead from the mortuary, especially in the morning. It is a reflection of the poor health facilities we are offering our people. We need to do something as a matter of urgency. 

Mr Chairperson, in this country, we have very qualified health personnel. Unfortunately, they lack diagnostic equipment. If we provide this equipment to our qualified personnel, they will be able to identify the causes of diseases and provide the necessary cure. Most of the doctors and health personnel have had no such facilities in their working career. 

Mr Chairperson, the people of Kafue Constituency, which I usually frequent and which is so dear to me, have asked me to ask for facilities to be provided at the  Kafue District Hospital. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! 

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, there are no facilities there and I am appealing to the hon. Minister of Health to pay particular attention to Kafue District Hospital. I am speaking on behalf of the people.  

Mr Muntanga: There is no MP.

Laughter 

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, …

Mr Mwaliteta: On a point of order, Sir. 

Mr Mwale: Iwe, nkhala chabe!

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised. 

Mr Mwaliteta: Mr Chairperson, for the first time, Kafue has got a brilliant hon. Member of Parliament.

Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Mwaliteta: Is the Member for Kalomo Central, my uncle, Hon. Muntanga, in order to pass a comment that there is no hon. Member of Parliament in Kafue when I am here and physically seen by everyone, and also taking care of Kafue through this Government. Is he in order, Sir? I need your serious ruling. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: If, in fact, he said that there is no hon. Member of Parliament, when there is one …

Mr Mwaliteta: Yes.

The Deputy Chairperson: … in the person of yourself, ...

Mr Mwaliteta: Yes, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: … then, he was definitely out of order.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: It is such remarks that are frowned upon.

The hon. Member may continue.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, the people of Kafue have said that those in the Government do not speak on their behalf.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: They cannot be heard. They have asked me to speak for them.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: That is why those people in Chiawa and Mungu …

Mr Mwaliteta: Aah!

Mr Mwiimbu: … are requesting that they be accorded these facilities. 

Mr Chairperson, I want to speak about the situation obtaining in Luanshya.

Mr Mwanza: Luanshya?

Mr Mwiimbu: After the closure of the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines (ZCCM), health facilities have really gone down.

Mr Livune: That is right!

Mr Mwiimbu: The people have been crying on the need to have good facilities in Luanshya.

Mr Kambwili: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Member of Parliament in order to mislead this House and the nation …

Mr Livune: Question.

Mr Kambwili: … that the health facilities in Luanshya have gone …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: … when, I am the only hon. Member of Parliament who can boast here of having bought ambulances for all clinics and renovated Roan Hospital using my own money?

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: Is he in order to mislead the nation?

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! To the extent that you have sufficiently debated your point of order, there will be no need for me to make a ruling on that. However, as the hon. Member for Monze Central debates, let him take that into account.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, I was talking about Luanshya and now I am going to talk about Roan.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, in Roan, Mpatamatu, Mr Chairperson, the former miners are living in squalor. They are failing to access health facilities and they have asked me to speak on their behalf, which I have done.

Mr Mubukwanu: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mubukwanu: Mr Chairperson, I reluctantly rise on this point of order.

Mr Mwaliteta: Yes.

Mr Mubukwanu: Is the hon. Member debating in order to swing his broken arm in such a manner … 

Laughter

Mr Mubukwanu: … when our able medical doctors have looked after him so well? Is he in order, Sir?

I seek your serious ruling.

The Deputy Chairperson: The serious ruling is that if, in fact, he was swinging his injured arm, that is evidence that he is doing well and doctors have done a good job on him.

May the hon. Member, continue.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, Lewanika General Hospital …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: … in Mongu, is in a very deplorable state …

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: … and the people have asked me to request the hon. Minister of Health to look into the issues of Lewanika General Hospital …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!.

Mr Mwiimbu: … so that they can also have better facilities like those in Lusaka.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, finally, I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister of Health to consider the plight of the people of Monze. Since Independence, Monze District has not had any district hospital. The health facilities in Monze are being provided by the Catholic Church and the Seventh Day Adventist (SDA) Church.

Mr Miyutu: Yes.

Mr Muntanga: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: We are appealing to the Government to establish a district hospital in Monze so that the people of Monze can feel that they are  part and parcel of this country.

Mr Muntanga: Of Zambia.

Mr Mwiimbu: The people of Monze have always been supportive of the Government of the day ...

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: … like they did in 2001, when they voted for me. In 1996 and 2011 they voted for me. Yes, I am in the Government; I belong to the three arms of Government ...

Mr Muntanga: Yes.

Mr Mwiimbu: … and that is why they vote for me. That is why they will vote for me in 2016 again.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: So, please, …

Mr Kambwili: Reject.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Mwiimbu: So, please, as I speak on their behalf …

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Mr Mwiimbu: … ensure that those facilities which Luanshya and Roan are not being accorded, are given to Monze for they do not see any value in having a Ruling Party Member of Parliament in Roan.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kasonde: Mr Chairperson, thank you for allowing me to comment briefly on this important debate. I think it is just appropriate that I begin by complimenting the hon. Member for Monze Central, Kalabo, Mongu, Luanshya and Kafue, among other places, that he has represented.

Laughter

Dr Kasonde: It has been the most imaginative contribution.

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kasonde: It is this level of imagination that makes this House. 

I suppose I should respond to all those who have spoken. However, it would be better for me to divide my remarks into two parts, firstly, on five issues that are of policy significance that have emerged from our discussion and secondly, on one or two of individual comments that have been made.

Sir, the hon. Members who have spoken have been from Kalabo Central, Solwezi West, Mapatizya, Lupososhi, Chipata Central and Monze Central. I think I can only do them good by looking at the critical issues that they have raised.

Firstly, Mr Chairperson, the issue of the division of the two ministries of Health and Community Development, Mother and Child Health is a fundamental issue because it represents an ideological and philosophical look at the policies which we are undertaking in achieving what we have said is universal health coverage. It means we are beginning to distinguish between those issues that are of policy and common importance to all and those that are specific to communities and their initiatives. It has been an outstanding gap for a long time and we should be proud that this has happened in this country.

From the outset, it was made clear that the remit of the Ministry of Health will be the common policy issues such as financing. Secondly, the second and third referral hospitals, thirdly, training and fourthly, common services like pharmaceutical procurement distribution.

Mr Chairperson, with this categorisation, we have now had an opportunity to benefit from what the community can do for themselves because we can now spend more resources than ever before on recognising the very important role of the community itself in its own health.

Mr Chairperson, I can offer that at some point, you will grant me permission and all those involved to conduct a seminar for hon. Members on the significance of this division and how it operates.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kasonde: Mr Chairperson, let me refer to the second issue, which is training. There has been talk about quantity and quality …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

(Debate Adjourned)

_____________

HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

_____________

MOTION

ADJOURNMENT

The Minister of Home Affairs and Acting Leader of Government Business in the House (Mr Lungu): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

___________

The House adjourned at 1918 hours until 1430 hours on Thursday, 21st November, 2013.