DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE THIRD SESSION OF THE ELEVENTH ASSEMBLY

Tuesday, 26th November, 2013

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM
    
PRAYER
    
_______ 

OATH OF ALLEGIANCE

The following hon. Member took and subscribed the Oath of Allegiance:

Chitalu Chilufya

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MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

2013/2014 FARMING SEASON

The Minister of Agriculture and Livestock (Mr Sichinga): Mr Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity to make this ministerial statement. It is my pleasure and privilege to officially launch the commencement of the 2013/2014 Farming Season. In fact, this particular statement, was intended to have been made last week, but I think now will do just fine. 

Sir, as you may be aware, certain parts of the country have already received some sporadic rainfall and some farmers have even started planting their crops. I wish to advise the public that we have consulted with the Meteorological Department which has provided us with the information that, in the long term, the country will experience normal rains this year, with possible regional variations. The rainfall, so far, has not been adequate to support the planting of crops, especially in the Southern, Central, Lusaka, Eastern and Copperbelt provinces as well as the south-western part of Muchinga Province. The Meteorological Department has also advised that when the Inter-Tropical Convergence Zone (ITCZ), which triggers the rainfall in this country is adequately established over Zambia, the nation shall be informed appropriately. 

Mr Speaker, the Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock District Agricultural Co-ordinating Officers (DACOS) are well positioned to advise on the suitable seed varieties and planting times in individual regions of our country. Further, the rainfall pattern in each region is already well known to local farmers. The information we provide is intended to complement rather than to replace local knowledge. 

Sir, you will note that the arrival of effective rainfall in our country is highly associated with the agro-ecological regions (AERs) and the oscillating low pressure zone, commonly referred to as the ITCZ during the rainy period which lasts from November to April every year. Effective rain is referred to as the water balance available to plants or crops after water losses due to evaporation and seepage. The growing period gets affected or shortened when rainfall arrives late, stops prematurely or exceeds the normal period of coverage. The arrival date of effective rainfall in a normal year does not vary significantly. However, the amount that falls has a considerable bearing even in a normal year, depending on the AER. This impacts crops differently depending on their maturing periods. Let me give the definitions of the three AERs. 

AER  I

 Mr Speaker, this covers parts of the Southern and Eastern provinces, specifically affecting the Luangwa and Zambezi valleys. These areas receive between 600 and 800 mm of total rainfall. In this region, early maize maturing varieties, sorghum, millet, beans and groundnuts can be planted as soon as the effective rainfall arrives, preferably around and between the first week of November and the first week of December. The latest date for planting cereals in this AER should not be later than 20th December in each respective year. Due to the climate change effects, rainfall recedes as early as 15th March. Under such regions, it is important to practice early planting, not later than the first week of December, to avoid crop failure. 

    AER  II

This covers parts of the Southern, Eastern, Central, Lusaka and Western provinces. These areas receive between 800 and 1,000 mm of rainfall. This AER is sub-divided into two regions. The first is AER II (a) which covers the Southern, Eastern, Central and Lusaka provinces which have inherent fertile plateau soils. The second AER II (b) covers the Western Province and Kalahari Sands. This region forms part of the Central African Plateau where most cereal crops such as maize, millet, sorghum and crops such as cucumbers and watermelons can be planted by early November. The planting must not exceed 20th December of each year. Soya beans in this region does very well if planted timely. However, if planted later than 31st December, yields will get affected due to inadequate sunshine. It is, therefore, advisable to avoid planting soya beans after the time I have indicated. 

AER III

This covers the Copperbelt, North-Western, Luapula, Northern and Muchinga provinces. This is the high rainfall region and receives between 1,000 mm and 1,200 mm of rainfall. Generally, effective rainfall arrives early in AER III. In this region planting can commence as early as the first or second week of November, but must not be done after 20th December, especially for late maturing maize varieties. Early maturing maize varieties can be planted up to 31st December. However, groundnuts, mixed beans and millet can only be planted between November and December 31st. Soya beans should not be planted …

Mr Speaker: Order, on the left.

Mr Sichinga: … after 31st December across all AERs.

Mr Speaker, the Deputy Ministers and I have undertaken tours of the different regions in our country. We are satisfied that the distribution of seed and other inputs, including fertiliser which began on Monday this week, will be properly handled throughout the country up to the end of next week.

Mr Speaker, I thank you for according me time to address this august House.

Mr Ching’imbu: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the ministerial statement which has been delivered by the hon. Minister Agriculture and Livestock.

Mr Mwale: Akamba cha?

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Mr Speaker, I …

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I do recall that when the Member of Parliament for Kalomo Central, Hon. Muntanga, raised a Motion on the Floor of this House to urge the Government to enhance the distribution of seed and fertiliser, my colleagues on your right made sure that it lapsed. When I informed this House that there was an injunction in Tanzania relating to the transportation of fertiliser by the Tanzania-Zambia Railways Authority (TAZARA), the hon. Minister informed this House that they had dispatched the Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP) and Attorney-General to that country who had helped resolve the matter. He further informed this House that TAZARA was going to start transporting the fertiliser to this country. 

Mr Speaker, we have noted that the Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock has hired 200 trucks from Tanzania to ferry the Urea fertiliser to this country because they have a problem with TAZARA due to the injunction which was obtained. Is he in order to mislead this House that, all is well when, in actual fact, the injunction is still in effect and TAZARA cannot transport the fertiliser to this country? 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: My ruling is that, after the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Livestock responds to the question from the hon. Member for Chadiza, he should address that issue.

May the hon. Member for Chadiza, continue.

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, last year, the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Livestock admitted on the Floor of this House that his ministry had performed badly in the distribution of farming inputs. How can he rate the performance of the ministry this year with regard to the distribution of fertiliser? Has it been bad, good, very good or excellent?

Hon. Opposition Members: Poor.

Mr  Speaker: It seems that question requires a short answer.

Mr Sichinga: Mr Speaker, let me start by answering the question by the hon. Member for Chadiza. Afterwards, I will talk about the issue which was raised in the point of order by Hon. Mwiimbu.

Mr Speaker, our performance has been absolutely exceptional.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Interruptions

Mr Sichinga: Sir, for the benefit of the hon. Member for Chadiza, let me justify my answer.

Mr Speaker: I am sure in the scheme of things, you mean that your performance has been excellent.

Interruptions

Mr Sichinga: Sir, I mean that it has been absolutely outstanding.

Sir, for the benefit of this House, I have been giving frequent updates. I gave the situation where we were when we were doing our planning. I have also been giving the situation regarding what has been happening on the ground. Thus, I do not think that it is fair for anyone to say that my ministry has not been providing regular updates. One can only say so if he or she has either not been listening to our updates or reading about them.

Mr Speaker, we started the distribution of inputs on 26th June, this year. To be specific, we started with the distribution of D Compound which is the first type which is used in our fields. When distributing seed, we take into account the information provided to us by Metrological Department regarding the expected weather pattern. Certainly, a person can rate our performance as exceptional.

Mr Speaker, I also want to correct the impression that last year, I made a statement on the distribution of inputs. I was not Minister of Agriculture and Livestock last year.
    
   Interruptions 

Mr Sichinga: Sir, I moved to the ministry at the beginning of March, this year. In fact, Hon. Mbewe should have said that he was impressed with the performance of the ministry because Chadiza has already received D Compound fertiliser.

Laughter

Mr Sichinga: That would have been the right thing to do, hon. Member.

Sir, let me now talk about the issues which were in the point of order which was raised by Hon. Mwiimbu. First and foremost, I did not say that we had dispatched the DPP and the Attorney- General to Tanzania. I said that they had given the necessary instructions because they were already in Arusha at the time. We do not have any problem with regard to the transportation of the fertiliser other than the normal delays which are associated with the delivery of items. The fertiliser will be transported by TAZARA and the 200 trucks. 

Mr Speaker, we went for the additional 200 trucks to ensure that all the fertiliser arrives in good time, that is, before the end of November. As I have already stated to this House, we want to distribute all the fertiliser before the end of December. The injunction is a legal matter which has already been dealt with. The delay to the fertiliser arriving in the country has been caused by the accident that occurred last week which meant that the line was closed for seven days.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Mr Speaker, I would like to seek full guidance …

Mr Mbewe: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Member of Agriculture …

Interruptions 

Mr Mbewe: … and Livestock in order to state that the people of Chadiza and I are smiling when we are very annoyed because … 

Laughter

Mr Mbewe: … we have not received the seeds up to now and the time for planting is running out? I need your serious ruling.

Mr Ndalamei: Eh!

Mr Speaker: I did not hear the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Livestock state that you are smiling.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: On a serious note, I will ask the hon. Minister to respond specifically to the concern raised by the hon. Member for Chadiza about the status quo in his constituency.

Mr Miyutu: Mr Speaker, I would like to seek full guidance from the hon. Minister. Does he realise that the statements he issues on the Floor of this House will not enable him or the ministry to deliver the seeds and fertiliser to the people of Nguma area which gets flooded immediately after December? Does he realise that the statement he has just delivered means that he will not manage to take the fertiliser there?

Laughter

Mr Speaker: That is a rhetorical question.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: I will not allow the hon. Minister to respond to it.

Mr L. J. Ngoma (Sinda): Mr Speaker, Sinda has not yet received D-Compound fertiliser and seeds. Why is it that the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Livestock likes to bring mere flowery statements to the Floor of this House when the reality on the ground is completely different? Why is he fond of doing that?

Mr Sichinga: Mr Speaker, first of all, I want to say to the hon. Member of Parliament for Kalabo Central that the reason I am doing what I am doing is that I have realised that … 

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister in order to respond to the question by the hon. Member of Parliament for Kalabo Central when your ruling is that he should not do so? 

Mr Speaker: The hon. Minister was clearly out of order.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: I stated that because the question by the hon. Member for Kalabo Central was rhetorical, the hon. Minister did not require to respond to it.  

Laughter

Mr Speaker: May the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Livestock finish responding to the question by Hon. L. J. Ngoma, please.

Mr Sichinga: Mr Speaker, it is obvious that the hon. Member of Parliament for Sinda did not get what I said in my statement clearly. I explained that from Monday this week, we have been distributing seeds to all the locations, including the Eastern Province. For his benefit, the allocation that was given to Sinda of 74.5 metric tonnes has already been delivered. So, I do not know which part of my statement was flowery. I think he has not been to his constituency to check on things.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter

Mr Ng’onga (Kaputa): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out whether the delay that arose in areas like Kaputa where we used to receive fertiliser quite early probably somewhere in October was due to the point that the paper work was not handled properly. If the hon. Minister and his officers who are in the provinces and districts had followed the laid-down procedure of the ministry, the distribution of the fertiliser should have been done by now.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: I will not request the hon. Minister to respond that.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwale: Leakage!

Mr Speaker: It is not a question.

Mr Mucheleka (Lubansenshi): Mr Speaker, due to perhaps a lack of proper planning, how much will it cost the Zambian taxpayers to hire those 200 trucks to transport the fertiliser? I also want to find out if an advert was put in the press for the hiring of the 200 trucks.

Mr Sichinga: Mr Speaker, through a ministerial statement which was issued in this very House early this year, I clearly indicated what our plans were. I am surprised that the hon. Member of Parliament for Lubansenshi can suggest that we do not plan, more especially that he is my nephew.

Laughter

Mr Sichinga: Sir, over the years, we have depended almost entirely on truck transportation rather than the railway line to bring inputs into the country. This is the first time, in a long time, that we are using TAZARA to transport fertiliser into this country. I do not think that this should be an issue. At the moment, I am not able to provide the cost for the 200 trucks to transport the fertiliser from Tanzania to Zambia.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Lt-Gen. Rev. Shikapwasha (Keembe): Mr Speaker, based on the projected weather patterns and the way the inputs are being distributed, can the hon. Minister tell the nation what sort of harvest we are going to have at the end of the season?

Mr Sichinga: Mr Speaker, I am unable to give that information. It is far too early for me to do that. We have not yet even finished implementing our plans. Normally, the Central Statistics Office (CSO) with the support of my ministry generates what are known as pre-harvest estimates. That is the only time we are able to give an indication of what sort of harvest the nation should expect. Furthermore, that weather projections which have been given to us are not conclusive. Thus, it would be quite premature for us to provide the information which Hon. Lt-Gen. Rev. Shikapwasha is looking for.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Bwalya (Lupososhi): Mr Speaker, some of the fertiliser has arrived and the seeds will also arrive.

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Bwalya: Sir, that aside, the main issue for me is that certain farmers have not been paid for their produce in various districts. What has the ministry done to ensure that the farmers who have not yet been paid their money can still access the inputs which are currently being delivered?

Mr Sichinga: Mr Speaker, I agree with the hon. Member of Parliament for Lupososhi that not all the farmers have been paid in full. At this point in time, we have about K48 million that is being cleared. As soon as we receive this money from the Treasury, we will pass it on to the Food Reserve Agency (FRA) so that the farmers can be paid what is due to them. As I earlier indicated on the Floor of this House, by the end of this month, we will finish paying the farmers the money which is owed to them. 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Habeenzu (Chikankata): Mr Speaker, in his statement, the hon. Minister seems to suggest that he is not the one who hired the 200 trucks. Who hired the trucks?

Mr Sichinga: Mr Speaker, we used agents at the port to hire the trucks. Seeing that we were in a hurry to get the fertiliser into the country, the agents advised we use both rail and road transport.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Hamusonde (Nangoma): Mr Speaker, what complications has the Government faced which have made it difficult for it to get the seeds to the farmers in good time?

Mr Sichinga: Mr Speaker, the delay in the procurement of seeds was as a result of outstanding amounts of money for what was supplied during the previous season. Last year, we had the misfortune of army worms in our midst. This meant that we had to distribute the seed twice in all the areas. In fact, some of the areas still have seed that was distributed at the time. As a result of this, we had an additional cost which we could not clear at once because we did not plan for it.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mutelo (Lukulu West): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister stated that they are using Tanzanian trucks to transport the fertiliser into Zambia. Why is that the case when we have so many trucks in Zambia?

Mr Sichinga: Mr Speaker, it is quite clear that if you are transporting cargo from Dar-es-Salaam, the most effective way is to start from there rather than sending empty trucks from here all the way to Tanzania to collect it from there and bring it back here. We had to do what made economic sense so that we could save money. That is the reason why we thought it was better to deal with the situation the way we have handled it. However, once the fertiliser arrives in the country, the hon. Member of Parliament for Lukulu West might wish to know that we will use Zambian trucks to transport it to various destinations.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lufuma (Kabompo West): Mr Speaker, under normal circumstances, private firms are supposed to import fertiliser from wherever it is for distribution to farmers in Zambia. In this case, the Government did the importation. What are the financial advantages gained by this move in terms of figures?

Mr Sichinga: Sir, first of all, I would like to correct the impression that it is normal for the private sector to import and supply fertiliser to us. That is not normal. It is a choice which the ministry makes on the basis of economic considerations. In this case, the choice was very simple for us. We looked at the cost of procuring fertiliser locally based on the resources that we had in our budget and found that it was beyond our provision. In order to meet our requirements, I informed this House that we were ordering 68,000 metric tonnes of urea. For the benefit of Hon. Lufuma, I would like to reiterate the point that the choice of whether to import or buy locally is made by the ministry on the basis of economic considerations.

Sir, the second point is connected to what I have already stated on the Floor of this House. I hope that the hon. Member for Kabompo West who is my good friend was listening when I made the statement that as a result of the direct importation of fertiliser from Saudi Arabia as opposed to buying locally, we were going to benefit from a significant price difference. The average cost to procure locally is just over US$1,023 per metric tonne while buying straight from Saudi Arabia is US$383 per metric tonne. Surely, our decision makes sense. Since my colleague has economics and accountancy knowledge, I am sure he knows that US$26 million has been saved as a result of the decision we made.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mbulakulima (Chembe): Mr Speaker, I think it is a notorious fact that the distribution of inputs in the last farming season was chaotic. This year, again, we are receiving fertiliser by road. Since today is 26th November, 2013 and taking into account the bad state of our roads, by the time the trucks arrive in Zambia …

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, thank you for according me this chance to rise on this point of order. It was only last week when the hon. Member on the Floor posing a follow-up question was asking for an assurance on how peaceful the Mansa By-elections were going to be. Therefore, is he in order not to be wise enough to brief you as regards what transpired in Mansa?

Laughter 

Mr Speaker: Well, I did not know that he was agent of the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ). If he is, I am sure he will come through in due course.

Laughter

Mr Mbulakulima: Sir, in the olden days nephews used to respect their uncles but, now things have changed.

Laughter

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Speaker, I was saying that the rain is already with us. Taking into account the fact that we are going to have the same transporters who give us problems taking fertiliser to various areas, does the hon. Minister not think it will be the old story repeating itself? What guarantee can he give this House on how safe we are regarding this situation?

Mr Sichinga: Sir, the hon. Member of Parliament used the word ‘notorious’. In fact, after looking at the figures, I expected him to congratulate the Government on the savings it is making. I will give you the facts of the situation and specifically talk about his constituency and district. In his case, Chembe received 251.5 metric tonnes D-Compound, 241.5 metric tonnes urea and 21.8 metric tonnes of seeds. Therefore, he should be thankful that Chembe has received all the inputs. So, the question he has asked has caught me by surprise.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order! 

The hon. Minister is on the Floor.

Mr Sichinga: Sir, Hon. Mbulakulima does not even need to worry. The assurance has already been given. The job he has is to go to his constituency and make sure the inputs are distributed properly.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kunda (Muchinga): Mr Speaker, under the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) Government, we saw unprecedented bumper harvests.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kunda: Sir, why is the hon. Minister not consulting the experts?

Hon. Government Members: Which experts?

Mr Kunda: In the MMD.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Sichinga: Sir, the hon. Member of Parliament for Muchinga knows that when a consultant offers advice, it is up to the recipient to accept it or not. In any case, before he even asks any questions, he has to determine whether he has any resources within his sphere or not, with regard to this particular matter. I have more than enough experts on this side of the House.

Interruptions

Mr Sichinga: Sir, I really do not need to ask especially him, who is coming to Parliament for the first time on such matters. I do not know what expertise he is going to offer to me when, in fact, this is his first term as an hon. Member of Parliament. I would like to just leave it at that.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwila (Chipili): Mr Speaker, is it possible for the hon. Minister to avail us the information on how the farming inputs are being distributed, district by district? 

Mr Sichinga: Sir, I have no problem with that. I will avail the hon. Members of Parliament the information as and when it comes our way. However, I also want to tell the hon. Members that the situation is dynamic because it is constantly revolving. As the consignments are delivered, the figures which we have will change. I have no difficulty in availing some information to the hon. Members, especially at the end of this week, when we have finished the distribution of the seeds.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Kaingu (Mwandi): Mr Speaker, before I pose my question, allow me to congratulate Hon. Chilufya, the MMD candidate who won on the Patriotic Front (PF) ticket.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Order!

Dr Kaingu: Mr Speaker, the question that was posed by the hon. Member of Parliament for Chikankata was not answered. The question was: “Who hired the trucks from Tanzania?”

Mr Sichinga: Sir, I responded to that question. I said that we used agents to ensure that our cargo was moved to this country as quickly as possible. We found it expedient to use trucks …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Sichinga: … to deliver some of the urea fertiliser to Zambia. In any case, I also want to say that the hon. Member of Parliament for Mwandi knows very well that I was in his area at the same time as he was. I was even honking at him on Saturday so that I could tell him that I was distributing seed and fertiliser. I do not know why he has asked his question.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Maybe, he did not know why you were honking.

Laughter {mospagebreak}

____________  

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

TREATIES UNDER THE AU

195. Mr Mucheleka (Lubansenshi) asked the Minister of Foreign Affairs:

(a)    how many international treaties, under the African Union (AU), had been signed by Zambia from 2001 to-date;

(b)    of the treaties signed, how many had been ratified; and

(c)    of the ratified treaties, how many had been domesticated.

The Minister of Foreign Affairs (Mr Simuusa): Mr Speaker, between 2001 to date, twenty-three treaties have been signed by Zambia under the AU. Of the twenty-three treaties signed, eleven have been ratified. Of the eleven treaties that have been ratified, to date, only three have been domesticated.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mucheleka: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister why there is such a disparity between the signing of the treaties, their ratification and domestication?  Also, …

Mr Speaker: One question at a time.

Mr Simuusa: Mr Speaker, there is not such a big disparity. After a treaty is signed, it is up to the respective ministries to bring the treaty before the house for ratification. You are aware that different ministries are responsible for different treaties and protocols. Thus, it is incumbent upon a particular ministry to bring a protocol before Cabinet for possible ratification and domestication. It is, therefore, necessary to encourage various ministries to ensure that all the signed articles are ratified and domesticated.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Kalila (Lukulu East): Mr Speaker, instead of just leaving it up to the respective ministries, what is the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs doing to ensure that most of the treaties which we  signed are ratified and domesticated, considering that we have only ratified 50 per cent of the ones that we have signed? 

Mr Simuusa: Mr Speaker, as a matter of fact, we have discussed this issue at the ministry and have decided to open a computer database of treaties and protocols with a view of coming up with a system of sending reminders to the respective ministries over the status of various treaties and protocols. Through this system, we shall be able to monitor how the various ministries are handling the different protocols and treaties. 
    
I thank you, Sir.    

Ms Imenda (Luena): Mr Speaker, from the hon. Minister’s response, it seems that part of the reason we have this discrepancy is that the work around these treaties is handled by different ministries. Has the hon. Minister tried to find out the difficulties the ministries are facing in pushing for the ratification and domestication of the treaties and protocols?

Mr Simuusa: Mr Speaker, as I stated earlier, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs has embarked on an exercise to actually closely monitor how the ministries handle the treaties and protocols. After sending out reminders, we will get to find out what the challenges are, if any, which I should not expect.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Konga (Chavuma): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister mentioned that eleven treaties have been ratified while only three have been domesticated. Can the hon. Minister inform this House and the nation at large which three treaties have been domesticated?

Mr Simuusa: Mr Speaker, as a bonus answer, I can tell the hon. Member that the three treaties that have been domesticated are the African Convention on Preventing and Combating Corruption, Youth Charter, and the African Union Convention for the Protection and Assistance of Internally Displaced Persons in Africa, also known as the Kampala Convention.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Speaker, taking advantage of the fact that the hon. Minister is looking at matters concerning treaties at the moment, could he indicate how Zambia fairs in comparison with other AU Member States in so far as signing these treaties is concerned?

Mr Simuusa: Mr Speaker, I can confirm that we fair very well. Currently, there is a total of forty-one treaties under the AU which are supposed to be signed. Out of the forty-one, we have signed thirty-five treaties. Thus, we have not signed only six treaties. I can confidently report to this House that we are actually fairing very well as a country as far as the signing of treaties is concerned. We just have to improve a bit, which we are going to do, on the ratification and domestication part. 

Mr Mbulakulima (Chembe): Mr Speaker, out of twenty-three treaties, we have ratified eleven. Ratifying is one thing and domesticating another. What image does this portray to the international community?

Mr Simuusa: Mr Speaker, I think that ratification of a treaty shows the intention of the nation. It actually says that we agree to certain causes and actions. The ratification of a treaty shows the commitment of a country. That is what is important. The international community knows that we have agreed to certain causes and actions.

Sir, domestication entails bringing Bills to this House in order to make the commitments entered into through the treaties and conventions part of our local laws. I think it is just a question of encouraging the relevant ministries to push the process forward. What is important is to ratify the treaties and conventions. That is the strongest signal to the international community.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lufuma (Kabompo West): Mr Speaker, we appreciate what the hon. Minister is doing in order to encourage the domestication of these treaties in Zambia. We hope we are not going to wait in vain. We want to have a situation where these treaties …

Mr Speaker: Let us get to the question.

Mr Lufuma: I thank you, Mr Speaker. Has the hon. Minister given a timeline to the respective ministries as regards the domestication of the treaties?

Mr Simuusa: Mr Speaker, there is no timeline that has been given to various ministries. I think that we shall embark on encouraging the different ministries to push for the domestication the treaties and conventions. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs will be giving regular reports on the ratification and domestication of these treaties as an indication of pressure to the ministries to realise that we are falling behind and there is work to be done.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

SESHEKE TRADES TRAINING SCHOOL

196. Mr Sianga (Sesheke) asked the Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education:

(a)    when construction of Sesheke Trades Training Institute would commence;

(b)    when construction works would be completed; and

(c)    what interim measures the Government had taken for the training of school leavers in the constituency before construction of the training institute.

The Deputy Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education (Prof. Willombe): Mr Speaker, our ministry has acquired and facilitated the surveying of the proposed land for the construction of Sesheke Trades Training Institute. It has also developed a concept note for the construction works which it has submitted together with surveyed diagrams to the Director of Buildings at the Ministry of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication. 

Mr Speaker, the current position is that the ministry has since received the drawings and bill of quantities from the Director of Buildings, and advertised the project so that the tender could be awarded. The advertisement will close on 20th December, 2013. The tender process is expected to be completed by 31st January, 2014. The construction works are expected to commence around the 18th of February, 2014.

Mr Speaker, the works involve the construction of two classroom blocks, two hostel blocks, two ablution blocks, one workshop, an admission block, one library, one high-cost house, six medium-cost houses, installation of a generator set, construction of a borehole and associated water articulation systems as well as other external works. These works are expected to be completed over a period of 100 to 120 weeks from the expected commencement date of 18th February, 2014. 

Mr Speaker, in the interim, the school leavers can be enrolled at Mongu or Kalabo Trades Training institutes in the Western Province as well as Livingstone Institute of Business and Engineering Studies (LIBES) in the Southern Province.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Kaingu (Mwandi): Mr Speaker, in my constituency, which is part of Sesheke, there is a place called Masese with about thirty-five to forty dilapidated structures, which could easily be converted into a trades school. Why is it that the hon. Minister is not taking advantage of that, instead of constructing a new structure altogether?

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member for Sesheke is not impressed.

Laughter

Prof. Willombe: Mr Speaker, the suggestion which has been given by Hon. Dr Kaingu is worth considering as an addition to what we will be doing.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chipungu (Rufunsa): Mr Speaker, I want to find out from the hon. Minister if his ministry has plans at all to undertake the construction of trades training centres in selected districts, especially in the new districts like Luangwa and Rufunsa?

Prof. Willombe: Mr Speaker, in our previous responses to similar questions, the Government indicated that, eventually, each district will have a trades training institute. At the moment, we can only do what we can, given the resources at our disposal.

I thank you, Sir.

LINK ZAMBIA 8,000 km ROAD PROJECT

197. Mr Mutelo (Lukulu West) asked the Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication:

(a)    of the roads earmarked for construction under the Link Zambia 8,000 km Project, how many had been completed to date;

(b)    why the Government had left out a 68 km stretch of the Katunda/Lukulu/Mumbhezi Road (Lukulu Boma to Watopa Bridge) in its maintenance programme; and

(c)    when the Government would start the routine maintenance of the Katunda/Lukulu Road which is in a very bad state.

The Deputy Minister of Transport, Works, Supply, and Communication (Col. Kaunda): Mr Speaker, His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Michael Chilufya Sata, launched the Link Zambia 8,000 km Road Project in September, 2012. It is a three-phased road programme aimed at upgrading approximately 8,000 km of roads to bituminous standard, thereby linking districts and provinces throughout Zambia within a period of five to eight years. The duration of the individual projects ranges between eighteen to thirty-six calendar months depending on the scope of works and magnitude of the project. To date, only 43.8 km of Leopards Hill Road to Katoba Basic School of the project roads has been completed. However, over 1,500 of road works have been successfully procured under the Link Zambia 8,000 km Road Project.

Mr Speaker, the Government left out a 68 km stretch from Lukulu Boma to Watopa Bridge in its maintenance programme because it was found to be in a fairer condition compared to other stretches along that road at the time an assessment was carried out for spot improvement of the Katunda/Lukulu/Mumbezhi Road. The Road Development Agency (RDA) in conjunction with the Rural Roads Unit (RRU) recently completed spot improvement works on this road.

Mr Speaker, the Government through the RDA will start routine maintenance of Katunda/Lukulu Road in the first quarter of 2014. The routine maintenance contracts have provisions to undertake on and off carriageway works, which will also help in maintaining the bad sections.

Mr Speaker, the Government has hired a consultant to carry out a techno-economic study in order to come up with a detailed engineering design which shall be used to prepare a tender document for the upgrading of 270 km of the Katunda/Lukulu/Watopa Road to bituminous standard which is expected to be completed in the fourth quarter of 2014. The process to engage a contractor to undertake the works shall commence thereafter.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mutelo: Mr Speaker, did the RDA really go on the ground to confirm that the stretch which was deemed to be fairer when compared to the other parts of the road was, indeed, in that state? What is the current position?

The Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication (Mr Mukanga): Mr Speaker, I think that if the hon. Member listened carefully to the answer, he would have heard that, at that point, when the maintenance programme was being conducted, the stretch was deemed to be fairer than the other parts. However, with time, the stretch has also deteriorated. That is why the RRU has gone there to carry out spot maintenance.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Kalila: Mr Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity availed to me to discuss this very important road to the people of Lukulu. His Honour the Vice-President of this country is on record as having assured the people of Lukulu on the Floor of this House that this road would be upgraded in 2014. Can the hon. Minister tell me how the Government hopes to upgrade this road to bituminous standard without any budgetary provision whatsoever in the 2014 Budget?

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, this road is going to be done in accordance with the plans that we have. As I have already stated, we have hired a consultant who is coming up with the design. After that is done, by October 2014, the job will be done under the Link Zambia 8,000 km Road Project.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Konga: Mr Speaker, in his response, the hon. Deputy Minister indicated that the Government is going to upgrade 8,000 km of roads to bituminous standard through the Link Zambia 8,000 km Road Project. What is the estimated cost for the project?

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, although I cannot give the actual estimate, I would like to say that every piece of road network which will be worked on will be analysed and designed by the consultants. Therefore, the cost will be known after the work has been completed. To give you a rough idea of how much the project will cost, currently works on a kilometre cost a maximum of K3 million. So, you can multiply by 8,000 km and come up with a figure.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwila (Chipili): Mr Speaker, from the list of roads which were supposed to be worked on in Phase 1, which ones have not yet been constructed and why?

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, the works for all the roads in Phase 1 which were earmarked to be carried out have already commenced. Under Phase 1, our target is to work on a 1,500 km road network across the country. So, Phase 1 is on course and Phase II will soon commence.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Ndalamei (Sikongo): Mr Speaker, since the works on the Lukulu/Watopa Road are not in the 2014 Budget, is the hon. Minister telling us that the Link Zambia 8,000 km Road Project is outside the National Budget?

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, the Lukulu/Watopa Road is among the roads which will be worked on under the Link Zambia 8,000 km Road Project. Therefore, hon. Members should not worry about it.

I thank you, Sir.

Interruptions 

Mr Speaker: Order! 

The question, hon. Minister is: Are the costs of the Link Zambia 8,000 km Road Project outside the National Budget?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister of Finance has set aside money for the Link Zambia 8,000 km Road Project.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah! Where?

Mr L. J. Ngoma (Sinda): Sir, the people of Lukulu are interested in knowing when the road will be worked on. That is an issue which transcends the work of the consultant. Since the hon. Minister has indicated that the consultancy works will be completed by October 2014, when will this road be worked on?

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, the procedure is that after the consultant has handed over a report, preparations for the procurement process of works begin.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has just indicated that the money for the Link Zambia 8,000 km Road Project is outside the Budget. It is a well-known fact that it is the Parliament of Zambia which approves the expenditure of this country. May I know what authority the Government is using to spend money on such a big project outside the Budget, without the authority from Parliament.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, all the expenditure by the Government comes to Parliament for approval.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sing’ombe: Masholi!

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member for Dundumwezi, we issued a warning recently. I have singled you out because you have this particular propensity to use that word. I hope you restrain yourself in the immediate future.

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister gave us a very good answer …

Mr Mutelo: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mutelo: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister in order to state that there is money which has been set aside for the Link Zambia 8,000 km Road Project outside the Budget and at the same time say that all the Government’s expenditure comes to this House for approval?

Mr Speaker: Order!

After responding to the question from the hon. Member for Chembe, please, hon. Minister, address the issue which has been raised by the hon. Member for Lukulu West in his point of order.

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister gave us a very good answer. He said that 1,500 km of road network will be worked on in Phase 1. Now, give us a bonus answer. How many kilometres of the road network have been worked on in Luapula Province so far?

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, even though, I did not get the question clearly, I wish to state that all the projects we intended to work on are part of the 3 phases. The Link Zambia 8,000 km Road Project has Phases I, II and III. I have already stated that the Katunda/Watopa Road will be worked on as scheduled.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lufuma: Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister confirm whether what he is saying is actually nothing, but a trick since the allocation for the works on the road in question has not been included in the Budget?

Mr Speaker: Hon. Minister, please, be reminded that there is an outstanding issue which has been raised by the hon. Member for Lukulu West as you respond.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, firstly, I would like to state that the Government does not engage in any form of trickery. It comes up with real plans which it implements. 

Sir, the people of Lukulu should wait and see how we are going to implement this project. Since they voted for us, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Mukanga: … we are going to give them the services they require. Since we are the people in charge, we are going to do what we promised them.

Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Mukanga: Sir, if they want to see development in this area, they should wait and see because we are doing everything possible to provide the service that the people of Lukulu want. We want to ensure that the nice road network in Zambia is improved. The people of Zambia have been waiting for development for a long time. That is why the Patriotic Front (PF) Government came into power.

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: Sir, the execution of such projects is what made us get good results in Mansa.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: Sir, I think that it is important for the people to wait and see what will do. We are doing all we can to ensure that we give the people of Lukulu the very best of our service. So, I would like to urge the hon. Member for Lukulu West to wait and see the development that we shall take to his area.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: The question has not been answered. Maybe, the hon. Member for Lukulu West should repeat it as we close this segment. 

Mr Mutelo: I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Although, the hon. Minister is not mentioning Kasempa …

Mr Speaker: Order!

Just recast your question.

Mr Mutelo: Sir, is the hon. Minister in order to say that the Link Zambia 8,000 km Road Project money is outside the 2014 Budget on one hand and on then on the other one say that all the money which is spent on road projects comes to Parliament for approval? What is the truth? Through the Link Zambia 8,000 km Road Project, works on the Katunda/Lukulu Road are being carried out when they are not in the Budget.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, the money for road works is released in a phased approach. The use of the money is approved by this House.

I thank you, Sir.

Interruptions

__________

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the 
Chair]

VOTE 77 – (Ministry of Defence – K2,726,686,470).

(Consideration resumed)

Mr Ng’onga (Kaputa): Mr Chairperson, on Friday, I had begun talking about the Ministry of Defence’s roles and responsibilities in protecting and defending the peace and security of this nation. I also talked about the role that the Zambia National Service (ZNS) has continued to play in national food production in the agriculture sector. I had indicated that the ZNS was designed …

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

There is a lot of loud consultation. We cannot proceed like that.

Mr Ng’onga: Mr Chairperson, I had indicated that the operations of the ZNS were distributed in such a way that you would find its presence in almost all the provinces. For example, the ZNS has officers in both Kasama and Mbala in the Northern Province, in Mangango in the Western Province, in Mkushi in the Central Province, in Kafue in Lusaka Province, in Mansa in Luapula Province and in Chiwoko and Katete in the Eastern Province. The operations of this institution cover the whole country. Therefore, if this institution was well empowered in terms of funds, it would act as a source of information for the local farmers around the areas where it operates.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

I think those of you who are consulting loudly should go outside. It should not be that after a minute of calling for order, you, again, start making loud consultations.

Mr Ng’onga: Mr Chairperson, we need to empower this institution with funds to procure centre pivots, tractors and ploughs. I know that this institution can stand on its own once this initial injection is made. Just like it did to the Nitrogen Chemicals of Zambia (NCZ), the Government can deliberately invest in the ZNS and, thereafter, it would be able to stand on its own. Once that is done, the ZNS will not only be able to produce food to feed its officers and other Zambians, but also to export to the surrounding nations.

Sir, the budget allocated to the Defence Forces has increased slightly from around K2 billion in 2013 to about K2.7 billion in 2014. I would have liked to see much more invested into this particular institution. 

Mr Chairperson, I would like to pay tribute to the Defence Forces for the role that it plays in ensuring peace and security in the border areas, especially in places like Kaputa which shares a border area with our colleagues in the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC). We hear of skirmishes every now and then across the border. There are even refugees who enter Zambia from there. Even this year, we received refugees at Kirwa Island in Chienge. The Ministry of Defence together with the Ministry of Home Affairs maintains the peace and security in the border areas. Therefore, we should pay great tribute to the men and women in uniform.

Sir, we, in Kaputa, have had a wing of the ZNS which has been stationed there for quite a long time. It has maintained peace and security in our area. We urge this Government to continue keeping that wing in our area because we are not certain whether our colleagues across the border have secured peace. 

Mr Chairperson, the people of Kaputa have been involved in a borderline dispute which has remained unresolved for some time. I am aware that the Defence Force has been entrusted, over the years, with the responsibility to ensure that this issue is resolved. We, as the people of Kaputa, are very anxious to have this issue sorted out. We do not know whether the boundary is still in the original areas the colonial masters left it or it has been shifted closer to Kaputa. I know that the hon. Minister of Defence is aware of the issues I am talking about because he has been to the areas I am referring to. The people of Kaputa want the borderline dispute to be resolved once and for all.

Sir, Kaputa has an area called Chocha or Kalewulu Aerodrome. It is a place that was once used by the Defence Forces when mobilising or gathering data when need arose. The aerodrome is now in a state of disrepair. I would suggest that the Defence Forces take over the maintenance of this aerodrome because I know that this piece of infrastructure will be required when the need arises. It is not a lot of money which will be required because the aerodrome is not big. Only between K100 to K200,000 is required to give the aerodrome a facelift. Even though there are suggestions for Mporokoso to be used as a base for the Defence Forces, I still think the infrastructure in Kaputa needs to be worked on because it is the closest place to the border area.

Mr Chairperson, Human immunodeficiency virus infection/acquired immunodeficiency syndrome (HIV/AIDS) affects of men and women in uniform because of the nature of our jobs. Unfortunately, the money which has been allocated to programmes to fight the HIV/AIDS in the Defence Forces is inadequate. I looked at the provision for the Ministry of Defence Headquarters which is only about K153,000, for the ZNS it is only K20,000 while the Zambia Army has no provision. The medical services for the Defence Forces have been allocated only K280,000. I know for sure that the Ministry of Health has done quite a great deal in the fight against HIV/AIDS. I am sure the people in the Defence Forces would greatly appreciate an increment in the allocation to the fight against HIV/AIDS because of the nature of their job. The officers in the Defence Forces are sent to far away from their families for many days and months. Therefore, funds allocated to cross-cutting issues for the Defence Forces should be seen to be fighting the scourge significantly. 

Mr Chairperson, like other hon. Members of Parliament, may I also state that our Defence Forces should drive rural infrastructure development, especially with regard to roads and bridges. Again, all we need to do is fund institutions such as the ZNS adequately because they have personnel and equipment in the rural areas. Presently, the budget allocations for the construction of rural roads are making us wonder how the works are going to be carried out. If you gave us money in Kaputa to work on the roads, we would battle to find equipment. Even if we went to Kasama, we would not find the equipment. Without equipment, we cannot put the allocations for road works to good use. I would like to urge the Government to allocate sufficient funds to this ministry so that it can empower the ZNS which can help us to improve the state of our roads. The ZNS has trained manpower which needs to be supported for it to work on projects which shall bring joy to us. 

I thank you, Sir.

The Chairperson: We have had six people contributing on this Head and normally, we would be moving on. Since we are just beginning, however, I will allow Hon. Mbewe to be the last one to contribute to this debate. 

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Mr Chairperson, I just want to add a few words to the Vote in question. The Ministry of Defence is very important because its personnel cut across different professions. There are a lot of engineers in the Ministry of Defence who are not doing anything apart from saluting the hon. Minister when he is going to his office.

Laughter 

Mr Mbewe: Mr Chairperson, we cannot continue recruiting soldiers who are well qualified in different professions who end up just staying in the offices without performing what they were trained for. I would, therefore, suggest that the soldiers who have special skills should be seconded to some projects where their expertise can be put to good use.

Mr Chairperson, I also want to ask the Government to introduce rural reconstruction centres in all the districts where most of our boys and girls who are roaming the streets can go and practice different skills in order to sustain themselves. I feel this can create employment and, at the same time, reduce the number of the unemployed youths in this country. 

Sir, I also wish to request the Government to allocate more money to this ministry. Our men and women in uniform are supposed to have many pairs of uniforms. I am saying so because most of the individuals in the Defence Forces only have one or two pairs. It is very surprising to see a soldier putting on a beret on top of a wig. It looks so funny. There should be a way in which the dress code for the soldiers should be controlled. The ministry should also make sure that soldiers are given more pairs of shoes because most of them put on high heeled shoes and do not look well organised.  

Interruptions

Mr Mbewe: Mr Chairperson, there is a need to build proper houses for staff in the Ministry of Defence. There are soldiers who live in compounds. When thieves attack soldiers who live in compounds, they steal their uniforms and use them to stage robberies. Whenever this happens, the soldiers are blamed.  

Mr Chairperson, I am a man of few words. I would like to state that last week, I was in my constituency. The people of Chadiza asked me to express their gratitude to the hon. Minister of Defence who has deployed personnel who are monitoring the movements of the people from the Mozambican National Resistance (RENAMO) along the border areas. I want to also thank His Honour the Vice-President for answering my question concerning the security situation at the Taferansoni Border very well. I think that the people in the area feel secure. The ministry should be allocated more money so that it can continue monitoring the security situation along our borders areas. 

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Defence (Mr Mwamba): Mr Chairperson, as I wind up debate on the policy statement for my ministry, I wish to take this opportunity to congratulate our newly-born baby, Dr Chitalu Chilufya, …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwamba: … and the Patriotic Front (PF) on winning the Mansa Central Constituency By-election with a landslide victory, 9 - 1.

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Mr Mwamba: Mr Chairperson, I would like to respond to the various observations raised by the hon. Members arising from my policy statement. 

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order, in the House!

Mr Mwamba: Mr Chairperson, Hon. Lt.-Gen. Rev. Shikapwasha talked about the current freeze on recruitment. The current freeze on recruitment is a Government policy. However, I wish to state that this policy is to be reviewed by the Government at an appropriate time. He also stated that the recruitment in the Defence Forces is done selectively. I do not agree with him totally. The recruitment process for the Defence Forces is not done selectively. In order to have Defence Forces with a national character, the recruitment is conducted from all provincial centres equitably.

Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Mwamba: Mr Chairperson, I mentioned in my policy statement that the Government has continued with the programme to modernise the Defence Forces. Hon. Lt.-Gen. Rev. Shikapwasha also talked about our participation in the United Nations (UN) operations. With regard to that, I wish to assure the hon. Members of Parliament that Zambia is still participating in UN operations. Currently, her staff, officers and military observers are deployed in various UN missions although these are in small numbers. 

Mr Chairperson, Hon. Lt.-Gen. Rev. Shikapwasha was also concerned about how the proceeds from the ZNS activities are accounted for. My ministry is taking steps to ensure that proceeds from the ZNS are accounted for by the Treasury in 2014. 

Mr Chairperson, my ministry acknowledges the recommendation by the Hon. Rev Lt.-Gen. Shikapwasha on the good works we have done on the Northern Command Hospital. I wish to assure the hon. Member that my ministry shall continue to improve medical facilities such as Maina Soko Hospital in all military cantonments. 

Mr Chairperson, my ministry will continue to work in liaison with the Ministry of Finance in the rehabilitation and development of infrastructure for the entire Defence Forces. Hon. Mwila talked about the operations of the Zambia-China Mulungushi Joint Venture Textiles. As we are all aware this is a joint venture. I have stood on the Floor of this House on several times and said that the 66 per cent shares held by the Chinese has actually been a stumbling block to the operations of the venture moving at a faster pace. Since the majority of the shareholders are in China, we find it difficult to make certain decisions quickly. As I talk to you, we have invited them to come for a board meeting which they seem not to be interested in. However, we are trying everything possible to ensure that they come and attend this board meeting so that we can find a way forward. So, for now, I would like to ask the hon. Members of Parliament to bear with us. We are trying everything possible to ensure that the operations of the textile company are resuscitated. The operations of the company are of great concern to us, as a Government, and we would like that industry to be revived as quickly as possible.

Mr Chairperson, Hon. Mwila also talked about Munushi Banana Scheme. As most of us may be aware, the Munushi Banana Scheme was sold to a foreign entrepreneur known as Mr Finlay. Currently, my ministry is negotiating with the said entrepreneur for the possible purchase of the scheme since it has not been revived since it was privatised. The reviving of the scheme will definitely create employment not only in Mwense District, but also Luapula Province as a whole. 

Mr Chairperson, Hon. Miyutu’s concern was with regard to the reopening of the RRC in Kalabo. He talked about the need to revive the RRC in Kalabo because he used to enjoy eating the chickens which were being reared by that camp. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Mr Mwamba: Mr Chairperson, that is what he said. However, the biggest question is whether he used to buy the chickens or not.

Laughter{mospagebreak}

Mr Mwamba: Mr Chairperson, my ministry is currently reviewing the ways in which it can revive the RRCs in the entire country. This will depend also on the availability of resources. 

Mr Chairperson, Hon. Miyutu talked about the recruitment freeze as well. As I stated earlier, this is a policy matter which can only be reconsidered by Cabinet. He also alleged that the recruitment is conducted along tribal lines when the truth is that it is done on merit.

Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Mwamba: Mr Chairperson, regarding the call by Hon. Miyutu for the expansion of the skills training centre in Kalabo, as stated in my policy statement, my ministry will consider the expansion of skills training centres in all the provinces.

Mr Chairperson, let me now respond to Hon. Simbao’ concerns who I hope is in the House. 

Laughter

Mr Mwamba: Mr Chairperson, Hon. Simbao is concerned with the ranking system we use in the Defence Forces. Let me reassure the hon. Member that the ranking system in the Defence Forces is clearly defined by the Defence Act and Zambia National Service Act. Further, the promotions and appointments to the various ranks are done through the Defence Council which is chaired by His Excellency the President who is the Commander in Chief of the armed forces. Some of the promotions are recommended by the ZNS Advisory Board which I Chair. Hon. Simbao alleged that the army had become irrelevant to the development of this country. The Defence Forces will continue to be relevant to the national development of our country by ensuring that there is peace and stability in this country. It will also continue to respond to the effects of national disasters such as the reconstruction of damaged bridges and roads. 

Mr Chairperson, Hon. Simbao went on to talk about the accommodation for Defence Forces personnel. My ministry will continue building houses for soldiers and officers so that they all can stay in barracks. It is the Government’s policy to accommodate our men and women in uniform in cantonments. Therefore, the construction of houses for the Defence Forces personnel is an ongoing process. Currently, over 4,000 houses that were under construction are almost complete. Some of them have already been handed to the Defence Forces for occupation.

Mr Chairperson, in its quest to modernise the Defence Forces, my ministry has continued to procure equipment even for the engineering regiment. Hon. Muntanga, are you there? Are you listening?

Mr Muntanga: I am here.

Mr Mwamba: You talked about the need to mordernise the operations of the Defence Forces …

The Chairperson: Order, hon. Minister. 

Speak through the Chairperson.

Mr Mwamba: Mr Chairperson, I just wanted to find out if Hon. Muntanga was in the House.

Laughter

Mr Mwamba: Mr Chairperson, Hon. Muntanga also said that the budget for the Defence Forces is not adequate. We sincerely thank you for that observation. This is a good observation, especially that it is coming from the Opposition. I would like to assure the hon. Member that his concern will be ably addressed by the Ministry of Finance through the provision of supplementary funding to enable my ministry to procure modern equipment for the Defence Forces.

Mr Chairperson, I also wish to assure Hon. Muntanga that my Ministry shall continue to improve the medical facilities in all the military cantonments. 

Mr Chairperson, I wish to state that my ministry has plans to build a military barrack in the Southern Province …

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwamba: … although I will not mention where.

Mr Livune: In Kazungula.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwamba: Mr Chairperson, I will not reveal whether it shall be constructed in Kazungula or Choma. All I can say is that land has already been secured for this purpose.

Mr Chairperson, Hon. Muntanga expressed concern with regard to the state of the ZNS Camp in Choma. As I stated earlier, my ministry will continue to improve the state of infrastructure in all our military cantonments and camps countrywide.

 Mr Chairperson, Hon. Muntanga talked also about promotions in the Defence Forces. As I stated earlier, promotions and appointments in the Defence Forces to various ranks are made through the Defence Council and ZNS Advisory Board.

Mr Chairperson, let me now respond to the issues which were raised today by Hon. Ng’onga. He said that the ZNS has presence in nearly all the provinces. That is true. He also touched on an important issue regarding the border dispute around the area called Kampinga Enclave. I would like to assure the hon. Member of Parliament that this matter is being handled by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Zambia and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC). This matter has always come up in our Joint Parliamentary Committee (JPC) meetings. We will continue to discuss it until an amicable solution is found. Hon. Ng’onga  also talked about the need to position equipment in certain districts. All I can say is that in the 2014 Budget an allocation of K37 billion towards the purchase of equipment has been made. The money will be partly spent on the purchasing of agriculture equipment. It will also be used on the purchase of equipment to be used for road works. 

Mr Chairperson, coming to Hon. Mbewe’s concerns, I wish to state that the Defence Forces has adequately qualified engineers. The engineers are always busy. I do not know where he got the information that they are not busy. I also wish to assure him that the border area between Mozambique and Zambia is adequately secured. He should just sleep in peace because we have deployed a lot of troops there. 

Mr Chairperson, as I conclude, I wish to thank the hon. Members of Parliament for their contributions and support given to my ministry’s 2014 Budget Estimates. I also wish to assure this august House that I have taken note of all your valuable contributions.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 77/01 – (Ministry of Defence – Headquarters – K133,696,688).  

Mr Lufuma (Kabompo West): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4035, Activity 002 – Motor Vehicle Maintenance and Running Costs – K600,000. 

Sir, we are aware that the fuel subsidy has been removed which has led to an upward swing in terms of prices. Given this fact, could I know the justification for reducing the allocation from K823,542 to K600,000, when normally it is supposed to be adjusted upwards? 

The Deputy Minister of Defence (Col. Lungu): Mr Chairperson, the decrease is due to the reduction in vehicle fleet size. 

I thank you, Sir.  

Mr Mutelo (Lukulu West): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4003, Activity 011 – Long Term Training (6 Months Above) – K558,373 and Activity 026 – Short Term/ Long Term Training – K600,000. 

Sir, the allocation Programme 4003, Activity ‘zilo’ 11, has been reduced from K658,373 for this year to K558,373 for next year. The budget allocation for Activity ‘zilo’ 26 in the 2013 Budget, which has short-term and long-term training in the same programme was K450,000 for this year and K600,000 for next year. Why do we have short-term and long-term training grouped together as one activity with an allocation as well as long term training as an activity on its own with its own allocation in the same programme?  

Mr Mwamba: Mr Chairperson, can the hon. Member, please, repeat his question?

Mr Mutelo: Sir, I would like clarification on Programme 40 ‘zilo’ 3, Activity ‘zilo’11 – Long- Term Training (6 Months Above) – K558,373 and Activity ‘zilo’26 – Short-Term/ Long-Term Training – K600,000. 

Hon. Government Member: Iwe, zero!

Laughter 

Mr Mutelo: Sir, at the end of the day those who are heckling will say that they did not get what I said.  

The Chairperson: Order!

They are advising you to say zero instead of ‘zilo’. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter 

The Chairperson: However, it is understood that the hon. Member may have a problem with pronouncing zero. Therefore, when he says ‘zilo’, you should know that he means zero. 

Hon. Member for Lukulu West, you may continue. 

Laughter 

Mr Mutelo: I thank you, Sir.  Kwahaye, we say ‘zilo’.

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

The Chairperson: Order! There is no kwahaye here.

Can you withdraw that kwahaye? 

Laughter 

Mr Mutelo: Sir, there is long-term training on Activity ‘zilo’11.

Laughter 

Mr Mutelo: Sir, in activity ‘zilo’26, there is long term and short term training and yet the programme is the same. Why?

The Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours. 

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the 
Chair]

Mr Mwamba: Mr Chairperson, I will start with Programme 4003, Activity 011 – Long-Term Training – K558,373. This provision caters for long-term training for personnel locally. The decrease in the allocation is due to the reduced number of personnel to be trained. 

Sir, the provision on Programme 4003, Activity 026 – Short Term/Long Term Training – K 600,000, is required to cater for short/long-term training for local personnel. The increase is due to the increased number of personnel to undergo training abroad. In addition, this is the standard format for presenting information in accounts. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mutelo: Sir, may I have clarification on Programme 4051, Activity 007 – Recreation – K70,000, Activity 009 – Football and Netball Team – Madalas – Nil, Activity 010 – Chess and Volleyball Teams – Nil and Activity 011 – Bowling and Squash – Nil. 

Sir, out of the four activities under this programme, recreation is the only activity budgeted for in 2014. These other activities have not been budgeted for and yet the physical status is very important. Why have we not catered for sports? 

Col. Lungu: Mr Chairperson, the provision on Programme 4051, Activity 007 – Recreation – K70,000, is meant to cater for recreational activities. The increase is due to the increased number of activities. 

Sir, Programme 4051, Activity 009 – Football and Netball Team – Madalas – Nil, has been incorporated into Activity 007. 

I thank you, Sir. 

The Chairperson: What about the others? 

Col. Lungu: Sir, Activity 010 – Chess and Volleyball Teams – Nil has been aligned to Activity 007 under Programme 4051.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lufuma: Mr Chairperson, when responding to a question on Programme 4035, Activity – 008 – Motor Vehicle Maintenance and running costs – K 600,000, the hon. Minister said that the fleet has been reduced, hence the reduced budget. Does the reduction in fleet mean that the personnel establishment has been reduced as well?

Mr Mwamba: Mr Chairperson, may the hon. Member repeat the question for I did not get him clearly.

Mr Lufuma: Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister in answer to my question said …

Mr Kampyongo: Which page?

The Chairperson: Page number, hon. Member.

Mr Lufuma: Sir, I seek clarification on Page 797, Programme 4035, Activity 002 – Motor Vehicle Maintenance and Running Costs – K 600,000. The hon. Minister said that the reduction in the allocation to the activity is due to a reduction in fleet. Can we assume that this reduction in fleet is due to a reduction in personnel establishment?

Mr Mwamba: Mr Chairperson, I think that question is outside the perimeter of the budget estimate in question.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mulusa (Solwezi Central): Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 4007, Activity 011 and 012…

Mr Lufuma: A point of order, Mr Chairperson.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Lufuma: Mr Chairperson, we should be serious here. We are looking at the operational costs of the army which have been drastically reduced. This might affect the operations of the army. My wanting to find out whether there has been a reduction in terms of the establishment of the army cannot be outside the budget. Is the hon. Minister in order not to answer the question.

The Chairperson: Well, maybe. Hon. Minister, if you understand the question, maybe, you should address it.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwamba: Mr Chairperson, the establishment has not changed at all. The reduction in the allocation to the activity in question is as a result of the fact that we want to be prudent in the way we spend our resources.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Mulusa: Mr Chairperson, I would like a clarification on Programme 4007, Activity 011 – Outstanding Bills (Foreign) – K25,000,000 and Activity 012 – Outstanding Bills (Local) –  K 12,200,178. This year, there were two huge amounts which were allocated to the two activities to the extent that we were assured that it was the last time we would be seeing so much money being allocated to the dismantling of such arrears. When will these arrears be completely dismantled?

Mr Mwamba: Mr Chairperson, I think Hon. Mulusa should realise that the Ministry of Defence consumes a lot of resources. We have to feed our troops. As we have preached today, we also need to modernise the operations of our Defence Forces. How are we going to modernise the operations of our Defence Forces if we can not accrue outstanding arrears both locally and internationally? The Defence Forces have been having such bills from even as far back as 1964. These bills will continue accruing. 

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Vote 77/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 77/02 – (Ministry of Defence – Zambia Army – K 1, 212,900,571).

The Minister of Finance (Mr Chikwanda): Mr Chairperson, I beg to move the following amendments:

(i)    Under 06 Administration Branch Unit, Programme:4103 Recruitment, Activity 001 Recruitment of Officers and Men, by the deletion of K900,000;

(ii)    Under 07 Operations and Training Branch Unit, Programme: 4103 Recruitment, Activity 004 Recruitment and Training, by the deletion of K330,000;

(iii)    Under 08 Logistics Branch Unit, Programme: 4001 General Administration, Activity 009 Utility Bills, by the deletion of K3,082,037 and the substitution therefor of K6,082,037;

(iv)    Under 08 Logistics Branch Unit, Programme: 4007 Dismantling of Arrears, Activity 002 Personnel Related Arrears, by the insertion of K5,125,000;

(v)    Under 08 Logistics Branch Unit, Programme: 4012, Infrastructure Development, Activity 011 Rehabilitation of Buildings, by the deletion of K700,000and the substitution therefor of K1,813,390;

(vi)    Under 08 Logistics Branch Unit, Programme: 4044 Uniforms and Rations, Activity 005 Procurement of Uniforms, by the deletion of K2,000,000 and the substitution therefor of K4,000,000; and

(vii)    Under 08 Logistics Branch Unit, Programme: 4013 Recruitment, Activity 001 Recruitment of Officers and Men, by the deletion of K10,008,390.

  Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification of Programme 4026, Activity 001 – Health Administration – Nil. Next year why are we not attending to our officers health wise.

Col. Lungu: Mr Chairperson, the activity has been re-aligned to Activity 001 under the same programme.

  I thank you.

  Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 4010…

  Mr Kampyongo: We have already passed that one.

The Chairperson: Order! We have gone through that one, hon. Member.

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification of Programme 4103, Activity 001 – Recruitment of Officers and Men – K 900,000. Why will women not be recruited?

Mr Mwamba: Mr Chairperson, there is always a provision for the recruitment of women.

I thank you, Sir.

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

Vote 77/02, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

VOTE 77/03 – (Ministry of Defence – Zambia Air Force – K629,600,467).

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move the following amendments:

(i)    Under 04 Supply Services Unit, Programme: 4044 Uniforms and Rations, Activity 005 Procurement of Uniforms, by the deletion of K600,000 and the substitution therefor of K2,000,053; and

(ii)    Under 05 Training Unit, Programme: 4103 Recruitment, Activity 004 Recruitment and Training, by the deletion of K1,400,05

Mr Mulomba (Magoye): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4008, Activity 012 – HIV/AIDS Programmes – K37,945. In this year’s Budget, there is an allocation of K280,071 for the same activity. There is a proposal for next year that we allocate this particular activity with only K37,945. Why is there a reduction in the allocation to the activity? 

Sir, may I also have clarification on Programme 4009, Activity 014 – Special Audit Assignments – K6,400. In this year’s Budget we have K15,858. In next year’s Budget, there is a proposal that we allocate the activity K6,400 only. Why is there a reduction in the allocation to the activity next year?

Col. Lungu: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 4008, Activity 012 – HIV/AIDS Programmes – K37,945, the provision is required to cater for HIV/AIDS …

The Chairperson: Order!

Sorry to cut you short, hon. Deputy Minister. I think that, maybe, we do it this way. First of all, we are considering the amendment which has been moved by the hon. Minister of Finance. We have to decide on the amendment before we can move on. 

Seeing that there is no further debate to the amendment, the hon. Deputy Minister can now respond to the questions which were asked by Hon. Mulomba. 

Col. Lungu: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 4008, Activity 012 – HIV/AIDS Programmes – K37,945, the provision is required to cater for HIV/AIDS workplace intervention and mitigation programmes. The decrease is due to a reduction in activities. 

Sir, on Programme 4009, Activity 014 – Special Audit Assignments – K6,400, the provision is required to cater for the special audit assignments. The decrease is due to a reduction in the assignments. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lufuma: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4001, Activity 001 – Personnel Related Costs – K6,248,610. This year, personnel-related costs were to a tune of K12,497,221. There is a 50 per cent reduction in the allocation for the personnel-related costs for next year. I am assuming that the personnel establishment is either the same or has been increased. Therefore, given that scenario, could I have a justification for a 50 per cent reduction in the allocation to personnel related costs. What has necessitated this reduction?

Col. Lungu: Mr Chairperson, the provision is required to cater for clearing outstanding personnel bills. The decrease is due to the reduced outstanding bills. 

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Mulusa: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 4037, Activities 003 – Monitoring and Evaluation Programmes – K42,500 and 005 – Inspection, Monitoring and Evaluation - Nil. I have noticed that there is a drastic reduction in the allocation to Activity 003 and a complete elimination for the one under Activity 005. May I know the reason.

Col. Lungu: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 4037, Activity 005 – Inspection, Monitoring and Evaluation – Nil, the activity has been dropped due to the completion of major projects.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mulusa: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 4054, Activity 001 – Chaplaincy – K254,673. I see that the allocation to the Chaplaincy has almost doubled under Zambia Air Force and yet when you go to page 799, Programme 4054, Activity 001 – K96,922, just as a reference, you see that the allocation to the same activity has stayed constant, which means that the expectations for the number of deaths and funerals in the army will remain constant. Is the hon. Minister implying that we are going to see more deaths in the Zambia Air Force this year than last year?

Col. Lungu: Mr Chairperson, the provision is required to cater for religious matters. The increase is due to the rise in expenses associated with religious matters.

I thank you, Sir.

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

Vote 77/03, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 77/04 – (Ministry of Defence – Zambia National Service – K669,340,344).

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move the following amendment:

(i)    Under 01 Administration Unit, Programme: 4103 Recruitment, Activity 001 Recruitment of Officers and Men, by the deletion of K900,000;

(ii)    Under 01 Administration Unit, Programme: 4103 Recruitment, Activity 003 Recruit Training, by the deletion of K2,000,000;

(iii)    Under 01 Administration Unit, Programme: 4103 Recruitment, Activity 006 Recruitment Supplies, by deletion of K1,750,000;

(iv)    Under 01 Administration Unit, Programme: 4103 Recruitment, Activity 008 Officer Cadet Training, by the deletion of K1,750,000;

(v)    Under 03 Logistics Unit, Programme: 4044 Uniforms and Rations, Activity 005 Procurement of Uniforms, by the deletion of K2,564,647 and the substitution therefor, of K4,964,647; and

(vi)    Under 04 Project Unit, Programme: 4012 Infrastructure Development, Activity 181 Infrastructure Construction, by the deletion of K1,549,673 and the substitution therefor of K5,549,673.

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4024, Activity 004 – Crop Production – K1,222,386. This is where our food comes from. I am seeing a minimum …

The Chairperson: Please, just ask your question.

Mr Mutelo: Sir, I am seeing a minimal increase to this year’s from next year’s allocation. Why can we not allocate a lot of resources towards this activity?

The Chairperson: Let us get used to asking questions rather than making statements because then, we are delaying proceedings.

Col. Lungu: Mr Chairperson, this provision is required to cater for the expenses associated with crop production. The increase is due to higher costs of farming inputs.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Mulomba: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4003, Activity 026 – Short Term/Long Term Training – K368,017. What training is going to be undertaken to warrant the huge increase from K56,000 for 2013 to K368,017 in 2014?

Col. Lungu: Mr Chairperson, this provision is required to cater for the short-term and long- term training of the ZNS officers. The increase is due to increased costs for training.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 4058 …

The Chairperson: What page is that?

Mr Mbulakulima: Sir, on page 811, Programme 4058, Activity 015 – Procurement of Specialised Equipment – K37,000,000. This allocation has increased from K2,000,000 this year to K37,000,000 next year. What specialised equipment is to be procured and why this big jump in the allocation?

Col. Lungu: Mr Chairperson, this provision is required to cater for the purchase of specialised agricultural equipment. The increase is due to the increased demand for more specialised agricultural equipment.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwezi): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4103, Activity 001 – Recruitment of Officers and Men – K900,000. Why has this amount been allocated when there is a recruitment freeze in 2014?

Col. Lungu remained seated.

The Chairperson: Maybe, the question is not clear. Mr Sing’ombe, can you repeat it.

Mr Sing’ombe: Mr Chairperson, I am on page 808, Programme 4103, Activity 001 – Recruitment of Officers and Men – K900,000. There is a recruitment freeze for 2014, but the ministry has allocated K900,000 for recruitment. May I know why. 

Mr Mwamba: Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister of Finance has made an amendment to that programme.

I thank you, Sir.

The Chairperson: Which we agreed to.

Mr Mulusa: Sir, I have a concern on Programme 4003, Activity 028 – ZICA/ACCA/CIMA CPD Conferences – K30,000. I am wondering whether this amount is enough for this particular activity.

Mr Mwamba: Mr Chairperson, that allocation will be adequate for 2014.

Thank you, Sir.

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

Vote 77/04, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 77/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 77/06 – (Ministry of Defence – Department of Defence Intelligence – K9,213,565).

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order, on my right!

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 4003, Activity 003 – Basic Intelligence Course – K1,070,000. Colonel, just relax. Take it easy.

The Chairperson: Order! 

Please, continue with your question instead of engaging the hon. Deputy Minister.

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Member, who is my uncle, in order to start intimidating the hon. Deputy Minister instead of him concentrating on asking his question straightforwardly so that it can be responded to?

The Chairperson: No, he is not in order.

Mr Mbulakulima: I do not know when Hon. Kampyongo became a presiding officer …

The Chairperson: Order! 

Just ask your question.

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Chairperson, I would like an explanation on Programme 4003, Activity 003 – Basic Intelligence Course – K1,070,000. I want to know why there is this jump to the allocation in 2014 from K506,000 this year, without the hon. Deputy Minister telling me what the provision is for.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order! 

Why are you engaging him? You are delaying proceedings.

Col. Lungu: Mr Chairperson, the provision is required to cater for the conducting of basic intelligence courses for staff. The increase is due to the increased number of staff to be trained.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 4013, Activity 005 – CDIs Bilateral Meetings – Nil, Activity 032 – Local Field Visits – Nil and Activity 033 – Foreign Field Visits – Nil. Why are there no allocations for these activities next year?

Col. Lungu: Mr Chairperson, the resources for the three activities have all been realigned to Activity 034 – Intelligence Collection – K5,120,000, under the same programme.  

Thank you, Sir. 

Vote 77/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 77/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 77/09 – (Ministry of Defence, Research and Planning – K61,469,657).

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4002, Activity 004 – Cabinet and Parliamentary Business – K146,766. This year, the allocation was K566,915. There is a drastic decrease in the allocation for the same activity this year. Now, Colonel, ignore Hon. Kampyongo. What is this decline …

The Chairperson: Order! Hon. Mbulakulima, you have to follow the rules. When we curtail your debate, you should not begin to complain. I think that you should ignore the hecklers and just address me. That is why I am here. Do not engage those people who are heckling.

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Chairperson, I will ignore them. I was saying that this is a drastic reduction and yet Cabinet and Parliamentary Business will be important next year just as it has been this year. Can that be explained? 

Col. Lungu: Mr Speaker, the provision is required to cater for the logistical support for Cabinet and Parliamentary Business. The decrease is due to ‘remote’ of administrative allowances.

Hon. Members: Remote?

Col Lungu: Oh, sorry it is ‘removal’ of administrative allowances. Let me read it again. The decrease is due to the removal of administrative allowances.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 77/09 is ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 33 – (Ministry of Commerce Trade and Industry – K236,906,097).

The Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry (Mr Chenda): Mr Chairperson, …

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order, on my right!

Mr Chenda: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for the opportunity to make the statement regarding the 2014 Budget Estimates for the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry. My ministry is charged with the responsibility of formulating and implementing policies …

Interruptions

The Chairperson: I am sorry, but the people on my right are not listening. We have to behave in accordance with the procedures of this House. 

Mr Chenda: I thank you, Mr Chairperson. I was saying that my ministry is charged with the responsibility of formulating and implementing policies and programmes relating to commercial trade and industrial sectors. In discussing the estimates, I will focus on developments that have taken place in the commercial …

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Hon. Minister, you may sit down. I think that there is something wrong in the House. We cannot be repeating everything every minute. Let us not behave like children. When we call for order, we expect the observance of order.

The hon. Minister may continue.

Mr Chenda: Mr Chairperson, I thank you. In discussing the estimates, I will focus on the developments that have taken place in the commercial trade and industrial sectors in 2013 and my ministry’s plans for 2014.

Manufacturing

Mr Chairperson, the manufacturing sector has continued to record positive growth. The sector grew by 8 per cent in 2011 and 11 per cent in 2012 and is expected to grow by, at least, 10 per cent in 2013. I must point out, however, that the growth in the sector has been uneven. The manufacturing sector is currently dominated by a few primarily agro-based sub-sectors such as food, beverage, tobacco and wood and wood products. As such, there still remains the challenge of diversifying the sector, more so with regard to adding value to mineral-based metal products. The Government wants to develop a broad based and balanced manufacturing sector.

Multi-facility Economic Zones

Mr Chairperson, I am glad to inform the House that substantial progress continues to be made in the development of Multi-facility Economic Zones (MFEZs). Four zones, namely the Chambishi, Lusaka South, Lusaka East and Lumwana MFEZs are at different levels of development.

Mr Chairperson, the Chambishi MFEZ is operational while significant progress has been made at the Lusaka East MFEZ. Hon. Members of Parliament may further wish to note that the developer has since invested US$1.2 billion in the Chambishi and Lusaka East MFEZs and created over 8,000 jobs. The Government has continued with the development of the Lusaka South MFEZ and, I am glad to report that it is now operational with the first investors having started construction works for a pharmaceutical plant.

In 2014, my ministry will focus on facilitating the operationalisation of the Lusaka East MFEZ. Further, my ministry will, next year, focus on attracting investment to the MFEZs. I should hasten to add, however, that the establishment of the MFEZs will take time to bear full benefits.

Industrialisation and Job Creation

Mr Chairperson, while the positive growth rates I earlier referred to in the manufacturing sector should be commended, my ministry is mindful of the daunting challenges of industrialisation. To this end, the Government has developed a national strategy for industrialisation and job creation, the centre piece of which is value addition in the growth sectors of agriculture, tourism, manufacturing and construction. Value addition creates the greatest opportunity for jobs to be created through backward and forward linkages across the value chains. The implementation of the strategy in collaboration with other ministries will be a major programme for my ministry in 2014.

Trade

Mr Chairperson, I am glad to report that exports, both traditional and non-traditional ones have been growing steadily over the years with total export earnings increasing from US$8.8 billion in 2011 to US$9 billion in 2012, representing an increase of 9 per cent. Much more gratifying is that while the country’s major export earner remains minerals, copper, in particular non-traditional exports (NTEs) which are exports other than minerals and energy, among others, have continued recording substantial growth. 

As a percentage of total exports, the NTEs grew from 21 per cent in 2011 to 23 per cent in 2012. This increase is attributable largely to the increased export of fresh foods and vegetables, gemstones, lime and cement, sugar, wheat and muesli and barley tobacco. As at mid this year, the NTEs accounted for approximately 33 per cent of the total exports.

Mr Chairperson, it goes without saying that the Government’s intervention aimed at promoting high quality internationally accepted products is bearing fruit. Hon. Members of Parliament may wish to note in this regard, that my ministry has this year been promoting a quality culture in the manufacturing sector while strengthening institutional frameworks for conformity to international quality standards. In particular, my ministry in collaboration with our co-operating partners has invested significantly in testing and metrology equipment at the Zambia Bureau of Standards (ZBS). The bureau’s capacity to monitor the quality of products on the market has also been enhanced. You may wish to note that this recapitalisation has resulted in wide international recognition of the bureau as an international standards body in the region and beyond. In order to accelerate growth of exports, my ministry will continue negotiating for favourable market access terms. Further, following the establishment of the Chirundu One Stop Border Post, my ministry intends to operationalise the Nakonde One Stop Border Post in 2014. This will shorten the clearance time at the border and thereby facilitate increased trade.

Private Sector Reforms and Business Facilitation

Mr Chairperson, the Government continued implementing the private sector development reforms. To this end, four pieces of legislation aimed at reducing the regulatory burden on businesses were enacted. As a result, twenty business licences were eliminated, bringing the total number of licences that have been eliminated under the business licencing reforms to 113. In an effort to further reduce the cost associated with accessing business-related services, my ministry also continued with the decentralisation of its services and strengthening one-stop shops where business-related services such as business tax and social security registration can be assessed under one roof. Two one stop shops have thus been established in Lusaka and Livingstone, and another is planned for the Copperbelt next year. This year, my ministry also embarked on corporate law reforms. The Draft Companies Bill has since been subjected to wide stakeholder consultation. The revision of the Companies Act is intended to further simplify business registration and strengthen corporate governance as well as improve the legal and institutional framework for rescuing financially troubled companies. My ministry in consultation with the Bank of Zambia is also consulting stakeholders on legislation intended to create a legal and institutional framework for registration of enforcement of security interest in personal property. The objective of this law is to make personal property readily acceptable by lenders as collateral. Ultimately, therefore, this legislation will ease access to credit. I intend to bring these pieces of legislation to the House next year. I will also bring legislation to the House intended to widen the scope of protectable industrial property and in particular trade marks by including service marks and thereby facilitating the growth of the service sector. 

CEEC 

Mr Chairperson, hon. Members of this House will recall that the Government had suspended the disbursement of the empowerment, fund pending audits and its restructuring intended to make it more transparent and effective. My ministry has since completed this exercise and the key measures taken include:

(a)    the realignment of the empowerment model to that of supporting businesses that form part of a value chain. These value chains may either be a sub-sector or an industry. Five value chains have since been identified in each province; and

(b)    the engagement of banks and micro-finance institutions to handle loan disbursements and recoveries on behalf of the Citizens Economic Empowerment Commission (CEEC). So far, the CEEC has signed credit management agreements with seven banks and micro-finance institutions.

Mr Chairperson, following this realignment of the fund, and the lifting of the ban on disbursements earlier in the year, the CEEC has embarked on implementing the Government’s decisions across the country. A call for applications for 2013 was done in the second quarter of this year. A total of 1,083 value chain-related projects nationwide have been identified. Of these projects, 91 per cent are rural based and many are related to value chain clusters in agro processing. These include: fruit, dairy, honey, meat, cassava, palm oil, groundnuts, cotton and timber. When fully implemented, these projects are expected to create, at least, 10,000 jobs. However, only three districts will be covered in each province during this pilot phase.

Mr Chairperson, my ministry intends to double the number of clusters from thirty to sixty next year. More projects are expected to be supported, particularly in the North-Western, Western and Muchinga provinces, which have relatively fewer approved projects. It is expected that the benefits of the value chain cluster initiative will facilitate the growth of micro, small and medium businesses. In an effort to create business opportunities for our people, my ministry, through the CEEC, has also implemented preferential procurement. As at 30th September, 2013, 4,014 businesses had benefitted from the preferential scheme. My ministry intends to widen and increase the use of the preferential procurement.

PACRA 

Mr Chairperson, further to the Government’s policy of taking services to the people, the Patents and Companies Registration Agency (PACRA) opened four additional offices this year in Solwezi, Kasama, Choma and Mansa. Hon. Members of Parliament may wish to note that the agency opened another two offices in Mongu and Chinsali last year. Consequently, with the exception of Kabwe and Ndola, which will soon be covered, business registration services are now available in all provincial centres. Over and above this, the agency has partnered with local authorities countrywide so that they can be service points. However, one of the challenges confronting the agency is the low level of compliance with the legal requirements to register businesses and file annual returns. In this regard, I wish to underscore the fact that filing of annual returns is critical in creating up-to-date business records. Therefore, I wish to call upon businesses to file annual returns. I also wish to implore local authorities to ensure that only businesses that are compliant with the law in as far as registration and filing of annual returns is concerned are issued with business permits. Moving forward, the agency will focus on further modernising registration processes starting with the digitisation of business records.

ZDA 

Mr Chairperson, the Zambia Development Agency (ZDA) continued facilitating trade and investment and the development of the business sector. In 2014, the agency will continue marketing the country as an attractive investment destination and promoting exports. My ministry is nonetheless concerned with the low levels of actualisation of the investment pledges particularly by foreign investors. To this end, the capacity of the ZDA to monitor investments will be enhanced. The agency will also focus on the development of industrial parks and MFEZs.

ZWMA

Mr Chairperson, the Zambia Weights and Measures Agency (ZWMA) has undergone restructuring over the last few years to strengthen its capacity to monitor measuring instruments. My ministry, through the agency, intends to complete the construction of the reference weigh bridge in Ndola to facilitate domestic and international trade.

Mr Chairperson, earlier on, I alluded to the measures that have been taken to enhance the capacity of the ZBS to enforce standards. I wish to add that the issue of sub-standard products on the market remains a matter of great concern to my ministry. I am glad to note, however, that the ZBS has commenced the monitoring of products from points of entry and border points.

Sir, my ministry intends to further strengthen the ZBS’s capacity to be present in all border points. Further, my ministry will focus on the development of national quality infrastructure in line with the National Quality Policy of 2011.

Mr Chairperson, the Competitions and Consumer Protection Commission (CCPC) continued sensitising the public about the consumer rights and resolving competition-related complaints. The commission has since also decentralised these services to Chipata and Kitwe. I am glad to note that like the Patents and Companies Agency (PCA), the CCPC is collaborating with local authorities in the competition and consumer protection matters.

Sir, regarding the 2014 Budget allocation, the portfolio of my ministry is wide and our programmes impact directly on the economic development of this country. The programmes for my ministry seek to create opportunities for local and foreign investment to flourish. Hon. Members will note that of the K236.9 million allocated to my ministry, 82 per cent or K177.09 million is going to statutory bodies as grants. This is because the implementation of the policies is done by the various statutory bodies under my ministry.

Mr Chairperson, the key allocation for my ministry is to trade and investment promotion, micro small and medium enterprises (MSME) development and rural development. Other key programmes include the development of the national quality infrastructure and the industrial development programmes. 

Sir, hon. Members may wish to note that the ministerial operations account for only 7 per cent of my ministry’s budget as we will commit most of the resources to programme implementation.

In conclusion, my ministry intends to focus on the following, in 2014:

(i)    implementing the Industrialisation and Job Creation Strategy and thus, develop the MFEZs and value chain industrial clusters;

(ii)    strengthening national quality infrastructure and implementation of the National Quality Policy.

(iii)    promoting growth of non-traditional exports;

(iv)    decentralising and reducing the cost of assessing business-related services; 

(v)    investment promotion and monitoring; and

(vi)    developing MSME.

Mr Chairperson, I call upon the hon. Members of Parliament to support my ministry’s budget.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulusa: Mr Chairperson, in 1964, the population of Zambia was 3.5 million and the number of formal jobs sat at 400,000. Today, almost fifty years later, Zambia’s population is at 14 million. It has grown by 400 per cent. The number of jobs which in 1964 sat at 400,000 is now sitting at 600,000. Over fifty years, the numbers of jobs have grown by 50 per cent and the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry has been in existence since then.

Sir, what makes people think that if this ministry was actually done away with, our country’s development would be negatively affected significantly? Over fifty years, the population has grown by 400 per cent without a growth in the number of jobs created? Does that not tell us that this ministry is not performing? The Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry is the engine of the economy that is supposed to actualise the creation of the wealth that the Ministry of Finance talks about when he presents the Budget Speech.

Mr Chairpersons, there is too much academic rhetoric in this ministry. “We shall do this,” “Industrial Clusters,” and so on and so forth. When the officials from the ministry attend conferences, they learn new terminology which they come to share with us in this House. We are not interested in that.

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister did not mention the key challenge which Zambia is facing. The key challenge of Zambia is the low integration of indigenous people in the economic activities which have a bearing on the Gross Domestic Product (GDP).

Sir, our potential to consume goods and services has been taken advantage of by foreigners. I would like to urge the hon. Minister to undertake a study of the thousands of items which Zambians consume. The study should also take note of the thousands of services which Zambians use. The hon. Minister should ask himself the question: Who is providing these goods and services? I will give you a simple example. Ninety per cent of the goods on the shelves of Shoprite Checkers are imported. Shoprite Checkers has been in Zambia for eighteen years. Hon. Minister in those eighteen years, you and your colleagues have been coming here to read speeches such as the one you are just from reading.

The Chairperson: Order!

Please, address the hon. Minister through the Chair.

Mr Mulusa: Mr Chairperson, in the past eighteen years, the hon. Ministers of Commerce, Trade and Industry have been coming to read speeches such as the one which has just been read by Hon. Chenda. Is this just an academic exercise? Is the speech just read as part of the process of bringing the yearly allocation to this ministry for debate before the House? We need change. Our population is posing a danger to Zambia. Ninety-two per cent of Zambians are aged below fifty years, and 45 per cent of them are aged below 15 years old. Every year, young Zambians are graduating into a state of being able to work. Are we providing jobs proportionately to the growth of the population? We are not doing that. 

Sir, the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry is not fighting hard enough to increase the productive capacity of our economy. Look at the Eurobond. How much did the ministry get from the Eurobond? Right now, the money is just lying idly. It is not contributing to the growth of the economy. The hon. Minister could have obtained a very huge chunk of money from the Eurobond to create financial products which would give Zambians the capacity to participate in the necessary sectors. 

Mr Chairperson, every single day, Zambians are going abroad to bring things to resell here and we are not doing anything to ensure that we capture that capacity to consume goods and services. We need to ensure that we retain the wealth of our country in our economy. So, speeches will not help us at all. 

Sir, we need a proper industrial strategy and not the ones we are seeing. The strategies that we see are just a list of empty statements. You have statements such as, “We shall ensure women’s participation in the economy” and “We shall ensure gender sensitivity in the industrial activities in our economy.” What is that? What we need are statements such as, “Any company that shall take up a school leaver and attach him/her to an expatriate to be trained, shall benefit 5 per cent reduction in corporate taxes.” 

Sir, these are the proper strategies that have measureable outcomes. You will actually see companies taking up school leavers who are on holiday. From what the hon. Minister have said, I do not see anything that will contribute to the growth of our economy

Mr Chairperson, what are the movers and shakers of our GDP? The movers and shakers of our GDP are the things which make it grow. A growth in the GDP does not proportionally lead to the creation of jobs. 

Sir, we need this ministry to undertake a serious study and ask serious questions. How can this ministry assist in the growth of our economy in a way that will lead to economic development? Let us not just talk about economic growth and meaningless figures. We need to talk about economic development which generally uplifts the standards of living of people and ensures that people enjoy the benefits that come out of economic growth. That is what we need to concentrate on.

Sir, I will give you examples of why we are failing. Let us look at our development financing institutions, including development agencies. Does the CEEC and the Development Bank of Zambia (DBZ) have mandates that speak back to the challenges of the nation? If they have mandates that speak back to the challenges of the nation, then how come we see them lending money to sectors that do not qualify world over to borrow money from development financing institutions? How can the DBZ lend to private airlines? Where else have you seen such things happening on earth? These are loans which are supposed to be serviced by private banks because they are better managers of risks and costs. 

Sir, does the DBZ have the capacity to analyse a proposal from an airline? Does it have the background to do so? Where are they today? Do the institutions have credit policies? Credit policies can cap limits of how much you can lend to a single borrower in terms of your paid up capital. All those are risk management measures. Did the money that was lent to the airline actually fall below the paid up share capital of the DBZ and, if so, where are the weaknesses? Are you addressing the weaknesses?

Mr Chairperson, I would like to recommended that the hon. Minister undertakes a revision of the mandates of our development financing institutions and ensures that the outcome creates institutions that strike a delicate balance between cost and risk management, financial sustainability and delivery on the mandates for which they were created. Otherwise, we will not be doing anything at all.

Sir, in terms of regional integration, we heard this afternoon that there are number of treaties and protocols that we have been ratifying and domesticating. All these go towards …

Mr Livune: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Livune: I am greatly indebted to you, Sir.

Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Member who is debating so well on the Floor of this House in order to continue going in circles about what a particular airline did when he has not disclosed to this House which one it is? I am at sea and would like to know the particular airline he is referring to in his debate.

The Chairperson: I think the way he is doing it is the most decent one in view of the fact that we do not want to mention names of institutions as well as people that cannot defend themselves. To avoid that, I think it is nice the way he is debating.

Mr Mulusa: Sir, lastly, I would like to talk about the political and economic integration of Africa which will pose the greatest risk to our ability to uplift the welfare of our people.

Mr Chairperson, when we achieve economic and political integration, to start with, of the region, we are going to remove all barriers to trade. Once that is done, all the laws that ensure that our local people are supported will be put in place. If we do not favour Zambians now, then we are going achieve integration at a time when we will be disproportionately developed and our people will be turned into economic refugees. 

Sir, I have critically looked at South Africa and Kenya’s industrial policies. These two countries are creating industrial strategies that are meant to turn their own countries into regions of industry and manufacturing. They think we have both continued and future markets for their goods and services. That is why some of these countries are supporting integration. They want the barriers to their markets removed. Look at the investors we are allowing to enter our countries. The investors that we are allowing to enter our countries are coming to seek for markets and not partnerships. The hon. Minister never mentioned a single strategy that is meant to ensure that the foreign direct investment (FDI) that comes into this country promotes partnerships rather than perpetuating the state of our being consumers. 

Mr Chairperson, Zambia is not adequately taking advantage of its consumption capacity. It is such things that we need to look at. Hon. Minister, I hope that all these strategies that you are crafting are being crafted by Zambians. Do not allow foreigners to craft strategies for us because while the world is one, we live in separate communities and countries. Each country has a strategy to take, as much as possible, from the global wealth. If we continue sleeping, we will continue providing markets for others. Let use turn the situation around and I would like to think that we can do it. I support the budget allocation.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mpundu (Nchelenge): Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank you for this opportunity to debate the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry Vote which I support on behalf of the people of Nchelenge Constituency. 

Sir, also, allow me to congratulate Hon. Dr. Chitalu Chilufya on his sweet win in the Mansa Central By-election.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mpundu: Sir, the victory was resounding.

Mr Chairperson, in debating the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry Vote, I would like to indicate that we place our hopes in this ministry for the creation of decent jobs in their hundreds or thousands. It is this ministry which can facilitate the creation of a middle class which is conspicuously absent in this country. This ministry is also responsible for promoting the growth of the medium enterprise sector in this country. This sector is conspicuously absent. 

Sir, in this respect, I would like to urge the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry to implement the Rural Industrialisaiton Strategy. We should pay attention to the establishment of the district industrial clusters which have been talked about so much in this House. We should operationalise the National Industrial Development Corporation and Provincial Industrial Development Corporation. These institutions are extremely important in bringing to reality the industrialisation of rural areas where we expect a lot of jobs to be created for our people. 

Mr Chairperson, I would also want to urge the ministry to vigorously promote access to finance for the medium and small-scale enterprises in our country. We have seen, over a long period of time, that this has not been possible. The ministry needs to pay a lot of attention to the promotion of access to finance for the small companies in our country. 

Sir, I also want to urge the ministry to pay attention to the implementation of objectives 3 and 4 of the ministries own strategic plan for 2011-2015. I have talked about this before. I would also like to urge the ministry to restrict the entry of sub-standard products into this country.  Personally, I am tired of buying sub-standard motor vehicle spare parts. If it is possible, hon. Minister, please, control certain businesses in this country. Those that can be done by Zambians, let them be done by Zambians. If you can exploit whatever is within the protocols of the (WTO) World Trade Organisation, please, go ahead so that this becomes a reality.

Sir, as part of the Rural Industrialisation Strategy, if it is possible, please, let the ministry profile the entrepreneurial vacuum that is available in this country and then focus on those areas particularly so that the decent jobs which our people need can be created. If it is possible, can we look at paper manufacturing. How come we do not have this kind of industry in this country? Is it not possible that we can have one? How about pulp? We import pulp into this country which we use to make juices. This sub-sector is quite large. We can create a lot of jobs by doing downstream processing. Is it not possible for us to produce bio-diesel? This sub-sector has got a huge potential to create a lot of jobs for our people. 

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.{mospagebreak}

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Chairperson, I want to start by saying that I do support the Vote for the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry. I would like to encourage the hon. Minister to take a few of the comments which were made by Hon. Mulusa as a jest because we do need this ministry. In fact, Hon. Mulusa even said that actually this ministry does house the engine for the economy of this country. Where good trade and industry exist, you are quite sure that decent jobs are going to be created. In his statement, …

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order, on my right!

Mr Nkombo: … the hon. Minister stated that the CEEC will concentrate on project proposals that add to the value chain. He also told us that the ban with regard to the CEECs disbursement of loans has been lifted. I would have been happy if the hon. Minister had given us a rundown of how the monies that were disbursed before the ban were used. I would have been happy if the hon. Minister had told us the recovery rate regarding the monies which had been given to people who were lucky enough to get the favour of having their businesses enhanced. I know for a fact, that there are many people who benefited from the fund in the other Republic who have not paid back the money which they borrowed. It would have been nice for the hon. Minister to have subjected the names of those people to public scrutiny. 

Sir, back in the year 2008, we had a problem of the Food Reserve Agency (FRA) having given certain facilities to certain individuals, some of them very prominent. It took us to stand up in this House to ask the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Livestock then to name the individuals. Some of those people were extremely prominent in our society. My fear is that if the hon. Minister does not come to tell us the exact findings of the forensic investigation regarding how monies were misused through this CEEC, I think we will be flogging a dead horse. It would be good, hon. Minister, in your usual transparent format for you to come and tell us which people have not paid back the loans they got from the CEEC. We already know some of them. The PF Government has rewarded some of them by even giving them jobs in the Foreign Service. They are now getting salaries from the tax I pay through my sweat for representing us in the foreign missions and yet, they have left a lot of debts and dirt behind. 

Sir, I want us to walk our talk. If we are cleaning up, let us do so wholesomely. Do not just come to tell us that you have now fixed the problem and it is time to move in a certain direction. The hon. Minister needs to tell us how much money they have failed to recover. Please, hon. Minister, do not be shy. At that stage, you were not the ones that were responsible for disbursing the loans. There is so much money which is still in the hands of the borrowers. Some of them borrowed with a view to not pay back. That is criminal. The empowering of people who intend to defraud our systems should come to an end forthwith. 

Mr Chairperson, I would have been happier if the hon. Minister, when talking about the need for certain legislation, had talked about the fact that Dr Kenneth Kaunda established the Livingstone Motor Assembly (ALM). The company used to assemble fiats from Italy. It created jobs at that stage. I was a Livingstone resident at that time. So, I feel like laughing when they start talking about beehives and honey as being sources of empowerment for our people. The hon. Minister was clear when he said that we need to get into projects that add value to the whole country. 

Sir, the processing of timber is a big business. I do remember the hon. Minister of Lands then, who is now hon. Minister of Finance, in a controversial bid, banned the export of timber. I think it was a good thing to do so then, so that we could re-strategise and come up with ways of adding value to our timber. What happens to our timber which goes to South Africa? There, they manufacture beds and sofas which are brought back into Zambia for sale in Mr Price. We buy such products from shops like Mr Price at exorbitant prices. Why can you not ask those same people you deal with to come and establish factories which can process our timber here in Zambia? When that is done, you will find that the timber products will be affordable to ordinary Zambians. The act of taking the timber in trucks to South Africa and bringing it back into Zambia in the form of expensive furniture will not help this country to develop. I want to re-iterate my point that to start encouraging me to go and make honey is not going to do for this country. 

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister also requires to focus his attention on the development of the textile industry. I have in mind the Kafue and Mulungushi Textiles. As it is, it is business as usual. When the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) left the position of power, there was a Minister of Defence, Hon. Mpombo. Now, there is this hon. Minister of Defence who is talking to me about pigs. He says that we are keeping pigs at Mulungushi Textiles. Some time back, we had deliberate policies that supported the growth of the textile industry in the country. Hon. Chenda is well aware of what I am talking about because he comes from Ndola. In Ndola, we had Swarp Spinning Mills, Sakiza Spinning Ltd and many other processing companies. What has happened to those companies today? We even used to export suits from Zambia which were made by Serials International. Today, you want to come and tell me that you are going to make sure that legislation is put in place which will ban certain sub-standard things from entering the country. What do you mean by the word ‘sub-standard’? What does Zambia produce for you to say that certain things are sub-standard? Tell me. 

Sir, I was reading a law which is enforced by the ZBS, which states that there are certain categories of fabrics which are not allowed to be imported into the country on a second-hand basis. For those who do not understand what I am talking about, I am referring to lingerie and hosiery. However, in simple terms, I am talking about underwear. They say that anything that clings on to your body should not enter the market if it has been worn by someone before. However, the question that begs an answer is: If you do not wear a vest underneath a second- hand shirt, will it not cling to your body? There is a total contradiction there. You are telling a Zambian not to buy a vest, but to buy a shirt from salaula. The vest that you are going to buy from my shop because I sell clothes is going to be more expensive than the cost of five shirts from salaula put together. How can a poor person go and buy a vest that will cost K100  just because he needs to wear it underneath a shirt from salaula which is worth K20. The point that I am trying to drive at is that, let what is good for the gander be also good for the goose. If you do not wear what we used to call 007 when I was younger or a bamba …

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: … your trousers are going to cling to your body. Some of the underwear from abroad is tailored by renowned companies such as Max and Spencer or Debenhams. Some of the clothes such as underwear which come into the country are rejects on account of the fact that, maybe, they have factory defects and not that they have been worn before. They are just not of a standard which can allow them to be put on the market in the countries where they are made. However, we have agreed that this country is not supposed to be a dumping ground. Those are  the dangers of the integration which Hon. Mulusa spoke about. Participating in regional integration which is the removing of trade barriers in the absence of a robust plan to gear up your industry is suicidal. 

Sir, many people prefer to drink Heineken beer as a substitute to Mosi and Castle, which are our own brands, because it is cheap. The people from South African Breweries (SAB) flood the market with their brands through the regional integration which is facilitated by the Common Market for Eastern and Southern Africa (COMESA). What does that mean? It means that Zambian Breweries can only produce so much because the market is saturated. It also does not respect our sovereignty. If we are going to allow ourselves to be an appendage of other economies, we will not develop. I am for the idea that we put duty on imported products which we can produce locally.

Sir, before I conclude, I thought it would be important to talk about the widening of our tax base. I think part of the ministry’s mandate should be to work very closely with the Ministry of Finance to ensure that as trading licences are issued, the Government captures everybody who is trading no matter how small the business. I strongly feel that there is more money in the informal business sector than there is in the formal one. The amounts of money exchanged at Soweto Market for, instance, is much more money than that which is exchanged at Northmead or even Manda Hill. However, we do not capture that money because we have not formalised the trade which takes in the informal sector. It would be helpful for us to ensure that whoever is trading is captured through the licensing system because it will help the Ministry of Finance to be able to collect the much-needed taxes for our country.

Sir, I think that I have exhausted the things that I needed to say. I just want to repeat the point that I support the hon. Minister’s budget for 2014. I also insist that he should take some of the comments which I have made on board because they are decent and serious. He should revive the textiles industry in this country and not this honey business.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Simfukwe (Mbala): Mr Chairperson, I stand to debate this Motion which I support for the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry. As I support this Motion, I want to take the debate of Hon. Mulusa as mine. The people of Mbala have got worries about their livelihood which they asked me to share with this august House.

Mr Chairperson, this ministry has a long history. This is the ministry which used to manage Zambia Industrial and Mining Corporation (ZIMCO), Industrial Development Corporation (INDECO) and Finance and Development Corporation (FINDECO). It is a ministry which used to run more than 450 huge companies. Some of companies were involved in the mining and processing of copper. 

Mr Chairperson, this ministry has the mandate, just like it had during that time of providing an environment which facilitates job creation. This ministry should enable the private sector to create jobs. It can do this whether through parastatals like the ones which existed under President Kaunda or the current set up where we have a lot of private companies.

Mr Chairperson, this is also the ministry which is supposed to move Zambia from being a primary producer to a tertiary producing economy or even a service level economy. This is the ministry that should see that we do not continue to export raw copper or even copper blisters. This is the ministry that should make sure that we do not export agriculture produce or raw timber. It is the ministry that should facilitate value addition. These are the tasks of this ministry. Everything else which includes mission statements, pronouncements, trips to trade shows in China or elsewhere will come to nothing if these simple basic functions of this ministry are not handled well. 

Mr Chairperson, this is also the ministry that should protect Zambian interest in commerce. Every country out there wants to maximise the interests of its people in regional agreements and in terms of trade. Every country wants to get the most out of its interaction with other countries. A former British Prime Minister, Winston Churchill once said “Diplomacy is a way of getting convenience from the other.” This means that when you go out there to negotiate, you must get what is best for your country. This is what this ministry is expected to do.

Mr Chairperson, the question that begs an answer is: Has this ministry lived up to these very humble expectations which include facilitating employment creation, defending the Zambian interests in commerce and ensuring that Zambia adds value to its God-given natural resources? We should not just go and cut a tree and export it. Like Hon. Nkombo said, we need to add value to it. We should not just sell things the way God created them or the way we found them. Recently, there was an issue of Statutory Instrument (SI) 89 which the President revoked to stop the exportation of raw copper in soil form. This is what is happening in other parts of the continent. If you went to Nchelenge, you would find this happening. The people there are exporting soil in bags from a neighbouring country. There is even a huge badge dedicated to doing that. It can happen here too. Why should this happen when we have a ministry that is responsible for making sure that we add value to our goods? As hon. Members would agree with me, whenever value is added, the margin of profitability or margin gain tends to be higher than when the material produced is in its raw state. For example, when we, farmers, sell potatoes, what we get is nothing compared to what those that sell chips get. It is the same thing for those who sell animals. A person who sells sausages gets more than the one who sells the animal. The natural way of economics is that when value is added, there is more gain.  This ministry should, therefore, make sure that we get the best out of our natural resources. 

Mr Chairperson, the people of Mbala feel that there have been some positive developments in this ministry. For instance, the ZDA, which has done its job well, is a success story. Apart from the ZDA, other agencies have been created. However, I think that it is the ‘business as usual’ approach which is making it difficult for us to move forward. We want to do things the way they have always been done. This is why my colleagues have complained about the contents of the hon. Minister’s policy statement. A very dedicated and stable hon. Minister has delivered a speech that seems will create a ‘business as usual’ atmosphere. This is a ministry that should not continue to do things the same way for a long time. 

Mr Chairperson, if you look through the records of China, you will notice that they have changed this ministry’s name more than ten times in the last forty years. They re-focused according to the direction they wanted to take their country during a particular period. The ministry is now called Ministry of Commerce. Just ten years ago, it was called Ministry of Foreign Relations and Economic Affairs, or something to that effect. They change and re-orient their ministry to focus on what they want to achieve.

Sir, in this country right now, our biggest hurdle is unemployment. This ministry has to be re-oriented so that it can create real jobs. However, it seems to always have a ‘business as usual’ approach. The ministry does not even have a website and yet smaller countries have websites for similar ministries. If you go to the internet, you will not find one. Even by last night, there was no website.  

Laughter 

Mr Simfukwe: Mr Chairperson, my colleagues have already talked about the manufacturing of goods. I would like to talk about corporate ownership, which is also very important. Some of our key industries are totally controlled by foreign nationals. Forty-nine years after Independence, I cannot point at any Zambian who owns even 0.1 per cent shares in any major industry. We have to facilitate for the local ownership of key industries in this country. 

Mr Speaker, I have argued before on the Floor of this House that we must limit ownership by foreigners to below 40 per cent. The remaining 60 per cent of anything must be owned by Zambians.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simfukwe: Sir, I have also argued that we must not allow foreigners to own land in their individual capacity. Foreigners must be given land as corporate entities because, then, they will share ownership of the land with Zambians. Land is an asset we can contribute in the setting up of mines. Without land, foreigners cannot do any mining. For instance, Kalumbila Mine is still looking for title deeds because they cannot mine without them. They further can use title deeds to collect finances from local banks. Why can Zambians not use land to have a stake in Kalumbila Mine so that we have local shareholders who are millionaires? 

Mr Chairperson, the need for value chains was also talked about. This is an area where this ministry has not protected Zambian interests. Apart from digging copper as labourers, there is almost no other role that Zambians play in the copper industry. I mentioned copper because it is the main treasure for Zambia. 

Sir, to produce one Toyota vehicle, there are not less than thirty independent companies involved. There are companies that make tyres. Others make stereos and music systems, and others, air-conditioning systems. There are employment and business opportunities which are created just in the production of one Toyota vehicle. Copper goes out of this country on trucks that are not even ours. When we see ‘abnormal load’ trucks bringing those huge, abnormal looking machinery, we assume that we are developing. Those things can be made by the Lusaka Engineering Company Limited (Lenco) Zambia. They can even be made in Chawama with a little capital.   

Laughter 

Mr Simfukwe: Sir, the foreign companies bring in that machinery from South Africa and, in the process, destroy our roads and yet we think that it is progress. If we focused on the creation of value chains, some things could easily be done here. Some equipment is made using boiler makers. We have boiler makers on the Copperbelt. The South Africans even assemble the machinery from there because they do not want to bring them in parts since they want to get all the money. They cannot even come and tie bolts from here. They want to do everything in their own country. Where is the value chain in the processing of copper? Here we are seated.  

Mr Mbulakulima: Watching.

Mr Simfukwe: Sir, these problems are not unique to the Governments of the PF and Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD). The problems have been in existence for some time. We need to have men and women who are prepared to start afresh and not take the ‘business as usual’ approach. The business as usual mentality is our biggest problem. Due to the fact that you have a car, eat breakfast and lunch and go home to your family, you think you are successful. Zambia has been overtaken by countries that were nothing before. We used to export maize to China. 

Mr Mbulakulima: Tell them!

Mr Simfukwe: Sir, Zambia exported maize to China at some point. There was a debate on the Floor of this House in 1975. Some Members opposed it, but the Motion was passed and the maize went to China as food aid. 

Mr Mbulakulima: Shame!

Mr Simfukwe: Mr Chairperson, we have remained behind because we like the ‘business as usual’ attitude. We like to do things the way we found them being done. We do not like to think afresh. Maybe, it is because we are cowards or simply doomed. This country needs to move forward and the only way it can do so is if we start to think outside the box. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simfukwe: Sir, let us get what is due to us from the mines. Let us be brave and different, especially you, in Government. 

Mr Speaker, as I conclude, I want to say that the regional trade agreements in this ministry, which need to be revised have cost us a lot. In the last report we debated in this House, the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry confirmed that although it had signed the Free Trade Agreements (FTAs), it was not ready to take advantage of them because it did not have the capacity to do so. Why agree to import and export …

Mr Mbulakulima: Iwe, Minister!

Mr Simfukwe: … agreements when you know you cannot export anything? 

Sir, now we have become a dumping ground. Officers in the ministry need to be given the political push to review the agreements. We are not here to please other countries and lose jobs for our young people. Can you, please, review these agreements and let us start producing our own things. In economics, these are called infant industry arguments. When an industry is at infant stage, protect it. This is simple economics. 

Mr Livune: That is right!

Mr Simfukwe: Why are you opening up industries that are not yet developed? There is a need to review these agreements. 

Finally, Sir, this ministry needs to reflect why 75 per cent of its budget is going to five grant-aided institutions. Sir, K177,000 out K236, 000 has been given to grant-aided institutions, none of which has anything to do with job creation. 

The Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours. 

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the
 Chair]

Mr Mwanza (Solwezi West): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate on the Vote which is on the floor of the House on behalf of the people of Solwezi Central. From the outset, I would like to say that since this is a sober ministry, ...

Mr Kampyongo: Yes.

Mr Mwanza: … there is no need to be emotional when debating its allocation. We need to be level headed. The hon. Minister of this ministry is a level-headed and focused person.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chipungu: Level headed like Dr. Phiri.

Mr Mwanza: Sir, I do not want to say that because I am yet to come to those issues. The Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry had a humble beginning and I stand here to support its Vote. However, in supporting its vote, I have a few comments to make. During the reign of Dr Kaunda, he told the people of Zambia that power belonged to them. He used to say, “Power to the people.” That meant that power was not in the hands of the cadres.

Mr Sikazwe: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza: Sir, it this ministry which is supposed to spearhead the principle of putting power in the hands of the people. I will demonstrate why the Zambian people need to be involved in the day to day running of various institutions by what I am going to say. 

Mr Chairperson, there are certain industries that the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry must clearly reserve for the indigenous Zambians. Since my colleagues have already said so much about that, I just want to supplement what they said. In Zambia, today, it is rare to find a wholly Zambian-owned company. I think the blame falls squarely on the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry because it has the power to ensure that Zambians take centre stage in employment creation and poverty eradication efforts.

Mr Chairperson, in Zimbabwe, which is just across the border, there are some industries which are reserved for Zimbabweans. Like my colleagues said, in Zambia, it is business as usual. We do not have a ministry or platform where the interests of Zambians are put at the centre. In whatever we do, we take a lukewarm approach. I think that is deadly. The Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry should help the people create a legacy for themselves.

Mr Chairperson, it is not rare today to find a Chinese baking bread or selling vegetables, eggs and bananas at Kamwala Market. This is nonsense. 

Hon. Members: Aah!

Mr Mwanza: We should not accept this because such businesses must be reserved for Zambians.

Mr Chilangwa: On a point of order.

Mr Mwanza: You will not come back if you do not support this. 

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Nonsense is unparliamentary. Can you substitute it with an appropriate word?

Mr Mwanza: What did I say, Mr Chairperson? I have forgotten.

The Deputy Chairperson: Nonsense.

Laughter

Mr Mwanza: I am sorry, Mr Chairperson, I beg to withdraw that word and replace it with ‘it is not good.’

Mr Sikazwe: It is unacceptable.

Mr Mwanza: It is unacceptable.

Mr Nkombo: And he will not come back.

Mr Mwanza: Mr Chairperson, I am speaking for the Zambian people.

Mr Ndalamei: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza: Sir, those in power must show leadership. 

Mr Chairperson, I am grateful that this ministry has brought PACRA to the North-Western Province. PACRA is now in Solwezi where it is doing its usual business. In Botswana, if you are forming a company, there must be a Tswana in front of you otherwise that company will not be registered. In this country, I have seen many foreigners owning companies. Whenever the same foreigners want to get land, they are putting it in their names and not companies. In fact, they have been able to get large pieces of land in their names. This must stop. The Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry is in charge of this because it is our kapitao as Zambians. Where do we look to for assistance? It is the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry. The hon. Minister should ensure that the formation of any company, no matter how small, is led by Zambians. The Indians, Portuguese …

Mr Nkombo: Chinese.

Mr Mwanza: … or Chinese can still be the major shareholders in some companies, but should involve Zambians in running them. That way, Zambians will contribute to the development of their country.

Mr Chairperson, like my friends have said, this ministry should not work in a partisan manner. It should be a sober ministry which should continue to open up new areas along the border line. The North-Western Province has a very large border stretch with the DRC. It also shares a border with Angola. There is one stretch at Jimbe. I was very happy to hear that the road in the area is being worked on. This will ensure that the area is connected to other places.

Mr Chairperson, in my constituency, there is a place called Kalengelenge. I also share a very large stretch with the DRC. The part of Kalengelenge in Solwezi West Parliamentary Constituency produces a lot of food which sometimes goes to waste because of the lack of transport. I will separately talk to the hon. Minister responsible for the road network to ensure that he opens up the area. 

The same goes for areas like Mushindamo near Kipushi. We have all heard about Kipushi. It is a very important area for trade between the people of Zambia and the DRC. When I was growing up in the late 1960s, if my father did not go to the DRC with hens or banzoro, then he was not a trader.

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

Mr Mwanza: Sir, it is common sense that this ministry must ensure that Kipushi Border is upgraded. Once Kipushi Border is upgraded, it will create employment opportunities for Zambians and will enhance the trade between the two countries.

Mr Chairperson, may I also refer to the part of Chavuma in the North-Western Province which borders Angola. In Chavuma, there is a need for a formal border post where business can be transacted between Zambia and Angolans. This business as usual approach will not take us anywhere. 

Hon. Minister, your policy statement was not forceful enough to generate the needed impetus which can drive the people of Zambia to develop their country. The civil servants who are listening to our debates must ensure that the next presentation by the hon. Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry is more emphatic in the areas which my colleagues talked about.

Sir, I would also like to inform the hon. Minister that I have just been hearing about the Lumwana MFEZ. I am the Member of Parliament for the area where Lumwana is. All I see is just a bush and nothing is happening. I think the hon. Minister is right to say that certain things are being done in the background. I hope that some activity will soon take place at the Lumwana MFEZ.

Sir, I also passed through Chambeshi as I went Solwezi. I found a lot of activities taking place at Chambeshi such that what I saw happening at Lumwana made me feel very frustrated. Hon. Minister, can you ensure that some activity also takes place at the Lumwana MFEZ.

Mr Chairperson, with these few remarks, I would like to support the Vote.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mufalali (Senanga): Mr Chairperson, in supporting the Vote, I would like to thank the hon. Minister for the humble way in which he presented his policy statement and even for standing up to ensure that this ministry becomes what we expect it to be.

Sir, in supporting this Vote, I would like to remind the Members of the PF Government of the promises that they made as they were campaigning. They said that they would ensure that they empowered the Zambian people. When the current President was campaigning, I remember him saying, “Mpeleni Zambia nkai washa.

The Deputy Chairperson: What does that mean?

Mr Mufalali: Sir, in English, he meant that given an opportunity to rule Zambia, he would clean it up.

Hon. Member: Yes!

Mr Mufalali: Sir, however, what we have seen is contrary to what he promised.

Interruptions

Mr Mulomba: Pali kadoti!

Mr Mufalali: Sir, we gave him an opportunity to rule Zambia and he has made it dirty.

Hon. Opposition Member: Aah!

Laughter

Mr Mufalali: Sir, we were thinking that he was going to clean it up. Unfortunately, he has made it dirty.

Laughter

Mr Mufalali: Sir, the Zambian people are now wondering why they were misled because the Zambia which he wanted to clean is dirtier than …

Ms Lubezhi: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, the Motion on the Floor is very clear and we would like to make progress. Is the hon. Member in order to digress from the Motion and start misleading himself by bringing in the President who is not part of this debate? I seek your serious ruling.

The Deputy Chairperson: The serious ruling is that the hon. Member should take that point of order into account and move straight to the subject.

You may continue, please.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, the President of the Republic of Zambia is actually the Chief Executive and the hon. Ministers are his assistants. Therefore, when I am talking about the President washing the country and ensuring that it is clean, I am talking about commerce …

The Deputy Chairperson: May you proceed, please?

Mr Mufalali: Sir, the environment in which our local businessmen operate is not conducive enough because it is quite dirty. Our citizenry are suffering because the country is dirty.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Lubezhi: Very dirty!

Mr Mufalali: Sir, the Zambian people were looking forward to this PF Government creating a conducive environment for business. Unfortunately, that is not obtaining. Actually, now in the Western Province, they say, kuuta singolongoma se sika kumiza.

Laughter

Mr Mufalali: Sir, this means bringing up a monster that will end up swallowing you. The monster has swallowed the Zambian people because the environment for business is not conducive enough.

Mr Chairperson, I can give examples here of singolongoma se sika kumiza.

Laughter

Mr Mufalali: Sir, just this afternoon, the Zambian people were looking forward to being empowered by the PF Government …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Before you proceed, you used some words which I have not been able to find in the dictionary. What is the meaning of the words you used?

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, singolongoma is a monster that swallows those who take care of it.

Laughter

Mr Mufalali: Just this afternoon, Mr Chairperson, I was shocked to hear an hon. Minister say that hiring trucks from Tanzania to bring fertiliser to Zambia will actually benefit us economically. 

Ms Lubezhi: To whom?

Mr Chilangwa: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Chilangwa: Mr Chairperson, we are told to be factual in this House. If an hon. Member of has got no points to put across, I think it is better for him or her to sit down so that we save on time. At no point in time did I hear of any truck bringing maize from Dar-es-Salaam. So, he needs to be factual. He has actually criss-crossed his points. I need your serious ruling, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: You may continue, Hon. Mufalali.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, I am talking about empowering the Zambian people through businesses like trucking. The hon. Minister who was addressing us this afternoon talked about the 200 trucks that have been hired to haul fertiliser from Dar-es-Salaam to Lusaka. Why did the Government not engage Zambian trucks so that the owners benefit from this money that is going to be paid to an agent? We were told through some theories, I do not know if they are economic ones, that it is cheaper to hire trucks from Tanzania. However, when they bring the fertiliser, they will not be here permanently and will have to go back empty. Therefore, it is the same with getting Zambian trucks that will travel empty to Dar-es-Salaam and come back loaded with fertiliser …

Mr Mwaliteta: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwaliteta: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Member on the Floor in order to discuss issues of agriculture when we are discussing commerce now? I need your serious ruling.

The Deputy Chairperson: I took it that the hon. Member was debating along the line of empowering Zambians. So, to that extent, he was in order.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, I am talking about empowering our people through trucking. I know the levels of understanding commerce are different.

Laughter{mospagebreak}

Mr Mufalali: Sir, if the trucking business in this country is harnessed, our people can benefit a lot. However, it makes sad reading for me to hear one of the policy makers in the Executive telling us that we would benefit economically from hiring Tanzanian trucks to haul our fertiliser. That makes me very sad because I know that the Tanzanian trucks will go back empty, the same way our trucks will go to Tanzania empty and carry this fertiliser to here. I get worried with such statements from the Executive.

Mr Chairperson, I also want to talk about the need to empower Zambians in the construction sector. Many hon. Members here have cried that Zambians are not benefiting from the construction projects in this country. All the billions of Kwacha that we allocate for construction end up in foreign hands. That should be checked. The Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry needs to ensure that our people are empowered in this sector.

Mr Chairperson, another issue is the sale of motor vehicles. There are so many scrap metals, or so-called motor vehicles, that are being sold on the market. Pakistanis are selling vehicles at every corner in this country. Where are the Zambian car dealers? That needs to be checked. I want to appeal to the hon. Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry to ensure that we do not increase the number of these ‘scrap metals’ that are being paraded everywhere. It had to take the President to stop His Honour the Vice-President and other hon. Ministers from glorifying the opening up of a scrap yard in the name of a motor vehicle selling company. His Honour the Vice-President was supposed to officiate at the opening of a second-hand motor vehicle selling company in this country. We are not interested in such companies in Zambia.

Mr Chairperson, there is also the issue of paying for the Japanese Export Vehicle Inspection Certification (JEVIC), for those importing vehicles from Japan. We are not very sure who benefits from the fees paid for this certificate. Why should we pay for vehicle inspection in Japan, as if the vehicles cannot be inspected when they come here? We have the Road Transport and Safety Agency (RTSA) here that can do a serious and thorough inspection. We should ensure that this matter is addressed.

Mr Chairperson, when the PF came into power, we were told that it was going to undertake investigations in the operation of the CEEC. Now that some crocodiles have crossed the Floor and have joined our colleagues across, the Executive is quiet about these investigations. His Honour the Vice-President told us that the crocodiles have crossed the Floor and are being kept that side. What they are doing there we do not know.

Laughter

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, the other issue that is of interest to me that needs to be checked by the hon. Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry is on banking services. In some banks, an application to open an account for one to do business has to be approved in Kenya. I think the hon. Minister should take keen interest in the operations of some foreign banks in this country that are not empowering our own citizens who are working in those banks to make decisions. 

Mr Chairperson, in some banks, even the local leave of an employee in Zambia has to be approved in India. What benefits can our people get from such banks and their services? Why should local leave be approved in India? Why should the information of Zambian branches of such banks be stored in Nairobi, Kenya? Why not store that information here? Why should the information and communication technology (ICT) Department of for example, Airtel Zambia or any other company, be moved from here to India, so that it is controlled from there? I want to appeal to the hon. Minister to ensure that all these things are checked thoroughly well.

Mr Chairperson, that Government …

Ms Lubezhi: Which one?

Mr Mufalali: Sir, the PF Government, when it came into power told us about industrial clusters. It wrote to some constituencies to ask hon. Members to identify land for these clusters. My constituency is one of them. I found a piece of land for an industrial cluster when Hon. Bob Sichinga was still the hon. Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry. Up to now, that industrial cluster has not materialised. I am wondering what these clusters are because we just keep on hearing promises about them. What are they talking about?

 Mr Chairperson, we want to see these clusters become a reality. We hope that under the new hon. Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry, who is sitting there humbly, something will come forward because we want to see value addition. In Senanga, we have enough hides because we have a lot of cattle. We have a lot of timber in the Western Province. We need to see value addition as was mentioned by Hon. Nkombo, who was talking about this issue on the national scale. 

Sir, however, the people of Western Province, 68 per cent of whom live in abject poverty, need to benefit from these resources through value addition. We need to tell the Chinese who are cutting our timber in the province to take it to Mongu or Senanga and process it there. That will create some jobs for our youths and minimise poverty levels. At the moment, all we are seeing is timber being hauled from the province. Our roads are being destroyed because there are no weighbridges there to curb overloading. The people of the Western Province are not benefiting from the current timber activities. Even on the national scale, no one is really benefiting. In turn, we are getting very expensive sofas that are coming from the Far East and South Africa made from our timber.

Mr Chairperson, I am concerned with the way the PF Government is doing things. The President came here and talked about the development of hydro power stations. In Senanga, an 80 MW hydro power plant is supposed to be built there. That is far more hydro power than the I.6 MW that the hon. Minister was talking about a few minutes ago. The hon. Minister did not even talk about this proposed power plant in Senanga. I have made a follow up on this issue with the hon. Minister of Mines, Energy and Water Development and he told me that something will be done. 

Mr Chairperson, I am concerned because there is a Permanent Secretary (PS) who is hindering the development of this project that could have benefited the people of Senanga, Western Province and Zambia as a whole. The Government is not doing everything possible to ensure that this project which is supposed to be producing 80 MW of power starts. I am wondering why a PS should be allowed to sit on this project through bureaucracy. What is happening?

Mr Chairperson, I want to appeal to the hon. Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry to ensure that this project takes off because 80 MW of power will be able to improve our power supply in the province. We are looking at upgrading the current power line which is 11 kv because in Western Province you cannot even set up a good industry due to poor electricity supply. There is not much you can do with 11 kv in terms of industrial projects. We want to improve the power supply in the Western Province. This is one of the areas that the hon. Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry should take keen interest in. Otherwise, I think it will be very difficult for Western Province to improve.

Mr Chairperson, Luapula and Western are some of the provinces that are very poor. However, they are not supposed to be poor because these provinces have a lot of water bodies. We need to make proper canals in these provinces. I know of countries that are very powerful and highly industrialised because of having canals. These are countries like Britain, which is an island, and the Netherlands. They have a lot of water and, therefore, have built many canals.  

Therefore, I think the business as usual attitude will not take us anywhere as a country. We have to change and do a bit of cultural remodeling because what we are seeing is the same things that we have seen before, which are not helping us. We want canals that we will be able to facilitate or help in transporting people and goods in the Luapula and Western Provinces. Water is a resource that can be utilised.

Mr Chairperson, with those very few words, I want to thank you.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chenda: Mr Chairperson, let me begin by thanking my colleagues …

Mr Mwaliteta interjected. 

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Chenda: … who have debated …

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Deputy Minister for the Central Province, I think that you are getting out of hand. It is about time you stopped the habit of commenting on virtually every debate by any hon. Member and yet you do not want to volunteer to debate yourself.

The hon. Minister on the Floor may continue.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chenda: Mr Chairperson, I was saying that I want to begin by thanking all my colleagues who have debated in support of the Budget for the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry beginning with Hon. Mulusa to Hon. Mpundu, Hon. Nkombo, Hon. Simfukwe, Hon. Mwanza and lastly, Hon. Mufalali. I want to state that we have listened very attentively and taken note of your concerns which were delivered very passionately. We want to assure you that we will take these matters very seriously and incorporate them as we plan ahead.

 Sir, let me also state right from the beginning that our ministry stays committed to creating an environment which is conducive for doing business. We also remain very committed to ensuring that we continue to market Zambia as the best destination for FDI, obviously, with emphasis on value addition in order for us to create opportunities for the creation of jobs and wealth for our people. 

Sir, I would like to respond to three issues that have emerged from the debate. The first one is that of the CEEC. Indeed, all of us are extremely concerned about what happened with the funds that were given or loaned out through the CEEC, especially to those people that defaulted or failed to honour their obligation. I want to say that, as a Government, we have taken steps to ensure that those that have been found wanting from the investigations pay for their misdeeds. To this effect, a number of properties have been repossessed and people are actually on the verge of being prosecuted. So, action is being taken. Apart from that, we have also refined the process under which the funds are released so as to safeguard the Citizens Economic Empowerment Fund (CEEF) against the misdeeds of the past. We have now engaged seven banks and micro-finance institutions which will help administer the programme in order to improve recoveries. Measures are being taken to ensure that this programme is administered properly. 

Mr Chairperson, alongside this, was the issue that was raised concerning the empowerment of Zambians in the economic development of this country. Under the CEEC Act, there is a provision for preferential procurement. This particular facility has not been used by many Zambians who are bidding for Government funded projects. I am glad to report that a number of Zambians have now come to learn of this facility which gives them an added advantage as they compete for jobs with non-Zambians. We will continue to scale up the sensitisation of this facility so that our Zambian people can have an advantage as they bid for Government jobs. 

Sir, I heard my colleague, the hon. Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication also emphasise the fact that from now onwards, 20 per cent of jobs will be given to Zambians. This is a step to ensure that Zambians participate in the economic activities of the country. 

Mr Chairperson, I also want to comment on the issue of regional integration. Regional integration is important as it enhances job creation. We also need to move beyond the Zambian borders to expand the domestic market. Thus, it is important for us to be part and parcel of efforts aimed at regional integration. Let me say that we are fighting very hard to attract investment into our country and want to emphasise manufacturing. These manufacturing investments are going to produce goods which need to be sold. However, we have only a population of 13 million.  Therefore, were are we going to sell the excess goods? The prospects are in our integrating into regional economic communities which have a higher population. Therefore, by belonging to regional groupings, we are actually creating opportunities for us to market our products.

Mr Chairperson, there was also a concern that was raised about jobs. We are all concerned about the creation of jobs. The reason we have come up with the Industrialisation Policy is in order to create opportunities which will facilitate industrialisation and in so doing create jobs for our people. Yes, we will not leave things as they have been in the past. 

Sir, the issue of exporting products in their primary form denies us opportunities to add value and, in the process, actually exports jobs to those countries where value addition is going to take place. We are committed to ensuring that through the Industrialisation Policy we create jobs for our people.  I must say that this policy is available for collection at our ministry and, like I said when I have said before on the Floor of the House, we do not operate in heaven, we are here in Zambia. You will do us a huge favour if you could come to our offices so that some of these important issues that you have raised here can be discussed as we sit and plan for the future of our country.

Mr Chairperson, I also want to comment on the value chain clusters. This is a programme that is being administered by the CEEC. I heard my brother, Hon. Nkombo, talking about honey. It is important for us to tap into our natural resource endowments and most of these lie in the rural areas. It is through the value chain clusters that we will be able to create opportunities for the creation of wealth and jobs in these areas. So, these value chains clusters are important. 

Mr Chairperson, with these comments, let me once again thank my colleagues who have contributed to this debate and assure them that we are committed to ensuring that Zambia becomes the best destination for investment and that we create an environment which is conducive for doing business.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 33/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 33/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 33/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 33/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 33/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 45 – (Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Child Health – K1,890,332,561).

The Minister of Community Development, Mother and Child Health (Dr Katema): Mr Chairperson, I wish to thank you for according me this opportunity to make the policy statement on the 2014 estimates of revenue and expenditure for my ministry.

Mr Chairperson, let me start by congratulating the hon. Minister of Finance for delivering a well structured Budget, which has demonstrated the PF Government’s aspirations by increasing the allocation to the social protection programmes.

Mr Chairperson, the ministerial budget for the year 2014 stands at K1,890,167,312 compared to the 2013 approved budget, which stood at K1,546,558,210. This reflects an increment of K343,609,102 or 22.2 per cent. The Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Child Health, is a key Government institution in the area of providing and facilitating social protection to the poor and vulnerable groups, as well as the provision of primary health care services. This ministry contributes significantly to poverty reduction, and is also playing a key role in addressing the health care needs, especially of mothers and children in both urban and rural areas.

Mr Chairperson, the Government through my ministry within the context of social protection, will continue to offer and facilitate the provision of services in the areas of social welfare, community development, empowerment and rehabilitation of persons with disabilities as well as the provision of primary health care services.

Mr Chairperson, under primary health care, the ministry will provide services in the area of the  management and control of HIV/AIDS, sexually transmitted infections, control and treatment of tuberculosis and leprosy, male circumcision, prevention of mother to child transmission of HIV, malaria control, safe motherhood, family planning, adolescent and reproductive health services, pediatric HIV, child immunisation, health promotion, nutrition and integrated management of childhood illnesses. The ministry will also place emphasis on addressing the problems being created by the non-communicable diseases that are on the upswing in terms of the disease burden.

Mr Chairperson, allow me now to highlight some of the key programmes under my ministry.

Social Cash Transfer Scheme

Mr Chairperson, the Social Cash Scheme aims at delivering social assistance in form of cash to those that are extremely poor and incapacitated and cannot be reached by labour based programmes. These people need regular and continuous assistance to survive and invest in the education and nutrition of their children. In 2014, K199.2 million has been allocated towards this programme. The Government will provide K150 million while our co-operating partners will put K49.2 million. The Government has increased allocation to this programme by over 75 per cent. This clearly demonstrates that the Government is committed to reducing poverty in the country. The increased funding to the programme will enable its up scaling from the current nineteen districts supporting 61,000 households to fifty districts and supporting about 189,000 households. The scheme is being up scaled in phases based on the high poverty levels, under five mortality and malnutrition rates. The scale up will be completed by 2016.

Food Security Pack Programme

Mr Chairperson, in the coming year, my ministry will continue to implement the Food Security Pack Programme in all the ten provinces. We have allocated K50 million to this programme. The purpose of this programme is to eradicate hunger and poverty, and promote household food security among the vulnerable households throughout the country. The programme targets vulnerable groups that cannot access farming inputs under the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP) under the Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock.

Women’s Development Programme

Mr Chairperson, my ministry recognises that women are the most economically marginalised in society and as such, in 2014, my ministry has allocated K18.9 million to the Women Development Programme to assist in uplifting the living standards of our women through income generating activities. The funds towards this programme have been rationalised to ensure that K10 million is allocated as a grant, and K8.9 million as a loan revolving scheme to women clubs and their associations.

Mother and Child Health

Mr Chairperson, in line with the realignment of portfolio functions, my ministry is responsible for the provision of primary health care services, and this includes district hospitals, health centres, rural and urban health posts, and communities to ensure that we concentrate on promoting good health, preventing diseases and providing curative services. A continuum of care will be strengthened as we continue to work in partnership with the Ministry of Health, which is focusing on the provision of health care at secondary and tertiary levels. In the 2014 budget, my ministry has allocated K240 million towards primary health care service delivery compared to K212.4 million in 2013. 

NGO Co-ordination

Mr Chairperson, this ministry has continued with the operationalisation of the Non-Governmental Organisation Act No 16 of 2009. The process of NGO registration is underway and to this effect, 280 local and international NGOs have paid and we have collected their application fees, while over 100 have submitted completed application forms awaiting approval by the NGO Registration Board. I am ably informed that the board had sat and approved a number of applications recently. 

Sir, my ministry has allocated K4.4 million towards this very important programme compared to the 2013 allocation of K2.8 million.

In conclusion, I urge this august House to support the 2014 Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure for my ministry.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Any further debate?

Silence

The Deputy Chairperson: May the hon. Minister wind up debate.

Dr Katema: Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank the House for this overwhelming support to my ministry’s allocation.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: It is resounding!

The Deputy Chairperson: It has, indeed, been resounding.

Laughter

VOTE 45/01 – (Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Child Health – Headquarters – K14,104,703).

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move the following amendment:

(i)    Under Unit 01, Human Resource and Administration, Programme: 5007 Dismantling of Arrears, Activity 001 Suppliers of Goods and Services, by the deletion of K500,000 and the substitution therefor of K514,719;

(ii)    Under Unit 01, Human Resource and Administration, Programme: 5007 Dismantling of Arrears, Activity 003 Personnel Related Arrears, by the deletion of K6,243;

(iii)    Under Unit 01, Human Resources and Administration, Programme: 5026 Human Resource Management, Activity 014 Retention of Health Workers, by the deletion of K8,269; and

(iv)    Under Unit 01, Human Resource and Administration, Programme: 5026 Human Resource Management, Activity 029 Expatriate Health Workers, by the deletion of K207.

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

Vote 45/01, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 45/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 45/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 45/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 45/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 45/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 45/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 45/10 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 45/11 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 45/12 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 45/13 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 45/14 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 45/15 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 45/16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 45/17 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 45/18 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 45/19 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 78 – (Zambia Security Intelligence Services – Office of the President – K433,929,460).

The Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communications and Acting Leader of Government Business in the House (Mr Mukanga): Mr Chairperson, I rise to present the Estimates of Expenditure for the year 2014, in respect of the Zambia Security Intelligence Service. 

As enshrined in the Constitution, it is the responsibility of the Zambia Security Intelligence Service to protect the people and the Republic of Zambia against threats that are inimical to the interest of the country. This responsibility calls for a considerable flow of resources to facilitate the smooth and efficient running of this institution which is cardinal in the security architecture of our country. Therefore, as the Government, we have an obligation to ensure that required resources are availed to this institution. The mandate conferred on the Zambia Security Intelligence Service is vital to the preservation of Zambia’s peace, security and stability. It is, therefore, imperative that we give this institution the necessary support to ensure that it delivers on this mandate in line with the aspirations of the people of Zambia to which this institution ultimately owes its allegiance. It is only through our support that the institution will discharge its mandate effectively.

Sir, allow me to remind this august House that the peace that our nation continues to enjoy is as a result of the collective efforts of our defence and security services to which the Zambia Security Intelligence Service is an integral part. The institution has, over the years, proved to be the countries reliable first line of defence largely on the account of the support that it has received from this august House in terms of the allocation of the resources. It is against this background that I wish to appeal to all hon. Members to be supportive when debating the estimates of expenditure for the Zambia Security Intelligence Services for the year 2014.

Mr Chairperson, as we consider these Budget Estimates, it is important that we take stock of the threats facing the country, including activities against the constitutional order of the country such as corruption, drugs and human trafficking, illegal migration and money laundering. These internal threats demand that the Zambia Security Intelligence Service should always be ahead and inform the Government timely and accurately. 

Sir, the Zambia Security Intelligence Service is cognisant of the threats facing the entire region, and the world at large, such as terrorism and various forms of organised crime. It must be understood that no single country can manage matters of security in isolation, as such, it is imperative that we build corroborative mechanisms with neighboring countries so that, as a region, we can collectively combat these transition threats.

Sir, resources are, therefore, required for the service to engage sister services and to participate in regional as well as continental security institutions. The dynamism of security entails that we invest heavily in institutions that deal with such matters. This investment is cardinal because it is the only way we can build capacity to enable them to be responsive to developing situations. It is, therefore, evident that the task before this organisation demands the availability of considerable resources to increase its capacity.

Mr Chairperson, as a Government, we are committed to ensuring that we have in place an efficient and professional intelligence service that will meet the expectations of our people. We, therefore, undertake to ensure that this noble institution continues to be effective through the provision of the necessary resources. It is against this background that I appeal for the continued support of the House.

Sir, may I now draw the attention of this august House to the proposed Budget for the Zambia Security Intelligence Services for the year 2014. The 2014 Budget Estimate stands at K433,929,459.75 compared to this year’s authorised expenditure of K369,172.620. The increase has been necessitated by, among other things, the need to improve the ICT systems and to cover the upwards adjustments of salaries aimed at improving the welfare of men and women who work tirelessly in service of this country.

Mr Chairperson, as I sum up my presentation to the hon. Members, I wish to reiterate my appeal to this august House to favorably consider the proposed budget before it. It is now my honor to present the 2014 Estimates of Expenditure for the Zambia Security Intelligence Service for your consideration.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Lt-Gen. Rev. Shikapwasha (Keembe): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate on this very important …

Mr Kambwili: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to rise on this very serious point of order.

Sir, debating the Budget is one of the cardinal roles for Parliament. Thus, it is expected that most of the hon. Members of Parliament must be in the House when the Budget is being debated. Is it in order for there to be only eighteen out of seventy-eight Opposition Members of Parliament in the House? Are they in order? I need your serious ruling.

The Deputy Chairperson: While it is not in order for the House to be empty when serious debate is taking place, I note with satisfaction that we have the quorum so business continues.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Lt-Gen. Rev. Shikapwasha: Sir, first of all, I must state that …

Mr Muntanga interjected.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Lt-Gen. Rev. Shikapwasha: … I completely support the work of this department in the country. There are two or three issues that I would like to discuss.

Mr Chairperson, the first is that the amount of money that has been given to this very important institution is so little that it will be impossible for it to modernise its operations. We are in a situation where many countries are modernising the operations of this arm of security. Thus, it needs a lot of money in order to raise the technical ability, that is, both its personal and the equipment, to a level where it can match the countries surrounding us and the rest of the world.

Sir, the hon. Minister mentioned areas that this arm does not deal in. This arm does not enforce the law against drug trafficking. The Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC) was established specifically for that purpose. This arm has to redefine its mission statement if it has to deal with the enforcement of laws against drug-related offences. In its current state, it will be overlapping into the mandate of another institution whose Vote this Parliament is going to pass. For corruption offences, we have a specialised arm of Government which deals with them. It is the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC). Therefore, I would like to ask the hon. Minister when he comes to wind up to remove the impression which has been created that the institution also carries out some of the functions of the ACC and DEC.

Mr Chairperson, the operations of this arm of Government are very important to the nation and should never be politicised. Its officers like to be allowed to operate in a professional manner. I, therefore, urge the Government and my colleague the hon. Minister that they should never politicise or tribalise this arm. It is important for this arm to … 

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Lt-Gen. Rev. Shikapwasha: … recruit from all over in order for us to have the right balance in this organisation. Otherwise, we are going to destroy this very important organisaiton that has held Zambia together for many years.

Sir, I support this budget and would like to even see it increased.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Chairperson, I stand to support the budget for the Zambia Security Intelligence Services. I once indicated in this House that there was not enough money for the Zambia Security Intelligent Services and the reasons were clear. I mentioned that we needed to change the way this wing was operating. I am now happy that the hon. Minister has emphasised that the idea of calling it the Office of the President (OP) is wrong. People believe that all this wing does is to hunt for people who speak ill of the President. If that is the case, then it should be called the Office of the President. I think the name of an institution should be in line with its mandate. At one time, we changed from being a one party State when all that its officers were doing was to look for enemies of the State within the country. They would not even tell you that Zimbabweans were coming to bomb us even if they knew it. They were only quick to find out who was sleeping with who in the bedroom. Is that news to be giving to the State? 

Mr Kambwili: Question! 

Mr Muntanga: Yes, …

The Deputy Chairperson: Can you, please, debate and address the Chair.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, these officers should not be there to look for perceived enemies of the Government, to find out who you have been going to bed with or who you are drinking beer with. That is wrong. The Zambia Security Intelligence Services officers are the ones who should help us to try to stop corruption. There is rampant corruption in this country, particularly, in Government. 

Interruptions

Mr Muntanga: Sir, His Honour the Vice-President confirmed that in this House. 

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, we have had a very good debate by Hon. Lt.-Gen. Rev. Shikapwasha. He was more precise in the way he debated this very important Vote. Is the hon. Member who is always a very good debater in order to start debating in the manner he is instead of simplifying what he is saying so that we can make progress? I seek your serious ruling. 

The Deputy Chairperson: The hon. Member debating is in order because he has simplified his debate for the benefit of those who are interested in following it. Hon. Muntanga, continue, please.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, I am grateful. We need to understand that, in actual fact, the Zambia Security Intelligent Services is an important organ. It should not be treated as though it is not an important wing. I am happy to see new offices in Choma. In Kalomo, there is a new office which will be ready soon. The Zambia Security Intelligent Services offices will be moved from the small office at the police station. Gone are the days when the Zambia Security Intelligent Services had small offices at every corner of a building. They were even found in the homes of people. Even in shops, we had people who were working for the Office of the President. This is why they were misunderstood. Other than seeing the buildings made of red bricks, now, we can see that at district level, the Zambia Security Intelligent Services are now being identified with good offices. We appeal to the Government to ensure that the officers of this important arm of Government are oriented. 

Sir, as a Member of Parliament, I am one of the Government officers. That is why I am paid by the Government. The officer who works for the Zambia Security Intelligent Services should not be scared of me. If I ask him to accompany me to one area, he should not be scared to be seen with me just because I am from the Opposition. What sort of work is he doing? Even when I want to supply them with correct information for them to solve certain problems or to be able to advise the Government, they are not willing to meet me just because I am a Member from the Opposition. All they do is work with the hon. Members from the Ruling Party. They make us believe that this wing operates like a group of informers for the Ruling Party, yet they are supposed to be our friends. They should be able to warn us not to go to certain places that are dangerous in advance. Those people should have all that information in advance. I would want to see a situation where our Zambia Security Intelligent Services reaches just half of what the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) can do. If the Head of State is doing something wrong for the country, they should be the first people to warn that what is happening is dangerous. We should not experience what happened in the past.

Sir, I do not want a repeat of the situation which led to our destroying information and the opening up of the famous bank account in London. We were able to start revealing those secrets. We were able to see what the Office of the President was doing. We misused them. Why should we start using the Office of the President for errands that have nothing to do with the State? We started using them to do wrong things. I think that the then Government should not have done things the way they did it. We want to appeal to the Zambia Security and Intelligent Services to help us, Zambians, and the State at large so that things can go on well. If the hon. Members from the Ruling Party do not believe that there is corruption even when His Honour the Vice-President confirmed it here, we can only get the truth from information given by this important wing. If the officers from this wing do not give us that information, who will? That wing is not working well. 

Interruptions

Mr Muntanga: Sir, that is why its officers are doing all sorts of things. Who is going to stop corruption in this country? Even on roadblocks, you find bribery taking place openly. It is not right. The only one who would be arrested is the common person. The security personnel seem to be so free. The budget which has been allocated to the Zambia Security Intelligent Services is not enough for it to buy proper equipment in this era where there is advanced technology.

Sir, I also want to talk about the fact that all our phone conversations are tapped.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Muntanga: They want to listen to whatever we say. Why do you worry about what Hon. Muntanga is saying to a friend? Why should you waste your money and your time to listen to what I am saying? 

Mr Kambwili: Sociology!

Mr Muntanga: Sir, we should also know what hon. Ministers who were absent from this House for two weeks were doing. 

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Sir, were they heading cattle at a golf course or they had gone on official duties?

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, I appreciate the debate of Hon. Muntanga and Hon. Lt.-Gen. Rev. Shikapwasha. What needs to be appreciated by the hon. Members is that this is not an enforcement organisation. Despite that, the work of this organisation needs to be appreciated by all hon. Members because it serves our interests. This organisation does not employ people from one region. It employs people from different parts of the country.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, this Government is committed to ensuring that it puts in place an efficient and professional intelligence service that will meet the expectation of every Zambian. So, let us support this organisation because it is there for us.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 78/01 – (Zambia Security Intelligence Services – Office of the President – Headquarters – K433,929,460).

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move the following amendment:

(i)    Under 01, Human Resources     and Administration Unit, Programme: 4000 Personal Emoluments, Activity 001 Salaries Division 1, by the deletion of K64,259,858 and the substitution therefor of K37,911,400;

(ii)    Under 01, Human Resources and Administration Unit, Programme: 4000 Personal Emoluments, Activity 002 Salaries Division II, by the deletion of K165,831,776 and the substitution therefor of K107,956,788;

(iii)    Under 01, Human Resources and Administration Unit, Programme: 4000 Personal Emoluments, Activity 003 Salaries Division III, by the deletion of K51,162,296 and the substitution therefor of K13,218,149; and 

(iv)    Under 01, Human Resources and Administration Unit, Programme: 4000 Personal Emoluments, Activity 005 Other Emoluments, by the deletion of K189,000 and the substitution therefor of K122,356,593.

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

Vote 78/01, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

(Debate adjourned)
__________

HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)
__________

The House adjourned at 1954 hours until 1430 hours on Wednesday, 27th November, 2013.