DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE THIRD SESSION OF THE ELEVENTH ASSEMBLY

Tuesday, 10th December, 2013

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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ANNOUNCEMENT BY MR SPEAKER

ACTING LEADER OF GOVERNMENT BUSINESS IN THE HOUSE 

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members I have received communication that in the absence of His Honour the Vice-President, who is attending to other national duties, Hon. Edgar C. Lungu, Minister of Home Affairs, has been appointed Acting Leader of Government Business in the House. 

I thank you. 

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MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

CONSTITUTION-MAKING PROCESS

The Minister of Justice (Mr Kabimba, SC.): Mr Speaker, I would like to thank you for permitting me to deliver this ministerial statement following the point of order which was raised by the hon. Member of Parliament for Mazabuka Central on Tuesday, 3rd December, 2013.

Sir, this point of order was intended to establish whether the Patriotic Front (PF) Government, had deviated from its pre-election undertakings in 2011 regarding the Constitution-making process.

Mr Speaker, the hon. Member of Parliament stated to this House that after the PF assumed the reigns of power, there have been varying and contradictory statements about the Constitution- making process.

Sir, in order to fortify his point of order, the hon. Member of Parliament referred the House to the 2011, 2012 and 2013 speeches by His Excellency the President during the Official Opening of this House. He also went further and stated that even the hon. Deputy Minister of Justice, Hon. Dr Ngosa Simbyakula, and myself had issued statements on the Floor of this House which were not consonant with each other.

Mr Speaker, the last limb of the point of order was in reference to the Sunday Times newspaper article of 1st December, 2013, titled: “Constitution only needs to be Amended – Sata.” 

Sir, the hon. Member of Parliament for Mazabuka Central referred to the relevant passages from His Excellency the President’s Speeches in 2011, 2012 and 2013. In 2011, His Excellency the President said: 

“Mr Speaker, the PF Government attaches great importance to good governance and we are committed to delivering a new people-driven Constitution within ninety days. To this effect, we are in the process of consulting stakeholders with the view of establishing a committee of experts to review the recommendations of all the previous Constitution Review Commissions in order to come up with a people’s Draft Constitution. The Draft Constitution will be subjected to a referendum and subsequently presented to Parliament for enactment.”

  As a follow up to this statement, in 2012, his Excellency the President stated to this House that:

“On the National Constitution, the House may wish to recall that during my address last year, I committed my Government to delivering a new people-driven Constitution. I also assured the nation that my Government in consultation with various stakeholders would establish a committee of experts to review the recommendations of all the previous Constitution Review Commissions and come up with a Draft Constitution.” 

   Further, the President said: 

“I am pleased to inform this august House that good progress has since been made. The Technical Committee of competent men and women was appointed within ninety days of the Patriotic Front (PF) Government assuming office. The Technical Committee has worked diligently and produced the first Draft Constitution in both English and seven local languages. This approach will enable the majority of our people to effectively participate in making their Constitution. The draft is now being subjected to stakeholder consultations.”

   In his official speech to this House in 20th September, 2013, His Excellency said:

“With regard to the Constitution-making process, the Government remains committed to delivering a people-driven Constitution. The consultative process has been completed and the final Draft Constitution is expected by the end of this year. Therefore, the Government, in collaboration with other stakeholders will guide the process accordingly.”

Mr Speaker, since my appointment as the Minister of Justice and Member of this House, I have made statements on the Floor of this House on the Constitution-making process. The statements hinged mainly on the perceived lack of the legal framework to protect the process and the referendum question. Hon. Members also wanted to know the budget and timeframe within which the programme of work would be concluded by the Technical Committee on Drafting the Zambian Constitution.

Sir, my responses to all the questions in this House are on record. I have also, during the same period, conferred with some stakeholders like the Law Association of Zambia (LAZ) and the Coalition of Civil Society Organisations (CCSO) on the same questions raised by the hon. Members in this House. All these efforts were intended to show transparency in our Constitution-making process and the desire on the part of the Government to engage the stakeholders who wanted to keep tabs on the process. I do not remember the existence of such levels of consultation or engagement during the National Constitutional Conference.

Mr Speaker, let me state here that the on-going Constitution-making process is the PF Government’s programme which is outlined in the party’s manifesto. It is, therefore, not a process of appeasement by the Government for any group of citizens or any other interested parties. It is a process which is intended to transform our country so that it can fit into the community of nations in the 21st century and beyond.

Sir, the broad-based enquiry process, which somehow departed from the letter and intent of our manifesto, is sufficient vindication that the Government is committed to the emancipation of the Zambian citizens through the sanctity of the constitutional document which derives its legitimacy and authority from the majority of our people across religion, colour, ethnicity or any other partisan strata. Such a document must promote peace, social and economic welfare as well as homogeneity in our country. We, therefore, believe, as the Government, that there is no substitute for a people-driven Constitution-making process.

In this regard, Mr Speaker, no one group or class of our citizens has any moral right to impose its views on others by taking advantage of their inability to understand this process or its implications on their lives. We must ensure that there is the equal and unhindered full participation of all our citizens irrespective of their stations in life. 

Mr Speaker, I have heard arguments from some groups of stakeholders to the effect that the State should have absolutely no role to play in this Constitution-making process. They claim that this is what is meant by a people-driven constitution. To this effect, I have received a letter from the CCSO, demanding that the hand-over ceremony of the final report by the Technical Committee on Drafting the Zambian Constitution should take place at the Freedom Statue along Independence Avenue and not at State House. It is also not atypical to see the projected spirit of self righteousness that only views coming from outside the realm of the Government are representative of people’s views and interests in this process. I would like, through this House, to implore all stakeholders and participants to desist from pouring scorn and contempt on those whose views are at variance with their own. This is what democracy entails. 

Mr Speaker, the PF Government believes that a viable civil society movement is important for our flourishing democracy and so are the opposition political parties in this House. However, these valuable components of democracy are not substitutes for an elected Government whose mandate is derived from the people. In this regard, unlike the experience of South Africa which did not have the privilege of the existence of a State during the Constitution-making process, to attempt to exclude the Government from such an important process is, in itself, an assault on our democracy. The people of Zambia are represented through this House and the Government which they elected in September, 2011. The creation of the Technical Committee on Drafting the Zambian Constitution was to ensure that our people convey their views to Government through an independent, autonomous and non-partisan organ. It was not to create a parallel Government structure at all. 

Mr Speaker, in conclusion, let me state the following:

(i)    the Government has requested the Technical Committee on Drafting the Zambian Constitution to submit its final report and the Constitution of Zambia Bill on or before 31st December, 2013;

(ii)    the Constitution-making process now and after the handover ceremony of the final report shall be better served through constant engagement by way of mutual respect for one another than what we have seen so far;

(iii)    the there are no inconsistencies or contradictions in the policy pronouncements made by His Excellency the President in his speeches to this House in 2011, 2012 and 2013 on the Constitution-making process;

(iv)    until the Technical Committee on Drafting the Zambian Constitution has handed over its final report to His Excellency the President, any comments or debate about the process may not yield the desired results or conclusions; and

(v)    the there is no impasse, whatsoever, between the Government and the Technical Committee on Drafting the Zambian Constitution as alleged in some quarters.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the statement issued by the hon. Minister of Justice.

Mr Mucheleka (Lubansenshi): Mr Speaker, why has the Government not given permission to the Technical Committee on Drafting the Zambian Constitution to print more than ten copies of the Draft Constitution for simultaneous hand-over to the Government as well as the general public as contained in the terms of reference given to it? 

Mr Kabimba, SC.: Mr Speaker, firstly, the question of the ten copies is neither here nor there. During His Honour the Vice-President’s Question Time, I think, Dr Scott did say that the ten copies which have been requested from the Technical Committee on Drafting the Zambian Constitution shall be handed over to His Excellency the President only. That is what the ten copies are all about. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister of Justice is the only human being who has gone through close to what Jesus underwent. I saw the hon. Minister’s coffin.

Laughter

Mr Mucheleka: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mucheleka: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister of Justice in order not to answer my question? The question was: Why has the Government not given permission to the Technical Committee on Drafting the Zambian Constitution to print more than ten copies of the Draft Constitution? 

Mr Speaker: Hon. Minister, as you continue responding, please, respond to that question.

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, I was saying that the hon. Minister has resurrected just like Jesus Christ because I saw his coffin.

Laughter

Mr Mbewe: Sir, he resurrected after three days. 

Sir, why are those in the PF Government, particularly himself, very reluctant to give the Zambians a roadmap for the Constitution-making process?

Mr Kabimba, SC.: Mr Speaker, let me just clear the perception, which is clearly coming from my colleague that this is about me. I stand here as a Minister of the Government. What I am saying are not my personal views. I am merely giving the Government’s position. The roadmap has been given in a very clear manner. We have requested the Technical Committee on Drafting the Zambian Constitution to hand-over, to the Government, the final Draft Constitution on or before 31st December, 2013. That is the roadmap.

Sir, in response to the issue which has been raised in the point of order by Hon. Mucheleka, I wish to state that after the hand-over of the Draft Constitution to the President, there will be more copies of it printed for members of the public.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kunda (Muchinga): Mr Speaker, it looks like we are still within ninety days because the Constitution has not been given to the people of Zambia. Can the hon. Minister indicate whether the Government intends to issue a White Paper in response to the Draft Constitution?

Mr Kabimba, SC.: Mr Speaker, even if you are bad at arithmetic, if you start counting from September, 2011 up to now, you will certainly notice that the PF has been in power for over ninety days.

Interruptions

Mr Kabimba, SC.: Sir, we are outside the ninety days. The statement that I have read and the various statements from His Excellency the President are very clear.

Sir, the issue of the White Paper has been dealt with. We do not intend, this time around, to issue a White Paper as the Government. Like you have seen from the process, the PF has just been one of the participants as a political party in the Constitution-making process. We have a duty, as the Government, to ensure that the Technical Committee on Drafting the Zambian Constitution complies with its terms of reference before the report is handed over or distributed to the public.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Kalila (Lukulu East): Mr Speaker, the hon. Member for Mazabuka Central raised specific questions in his point of order, in particular, to the effect that His Excellency the President had mentioned that we do not need a new Constitution as well as a referendum and that what we probably need are amendments to the one we already have. The hon. Minister has not denied all those issues in his statement. I, therefore, would like to find out whether that is the official position of the PF Government pertaining to the Constitution. 

Mr Kabimba, SC.: Mr Speaker, let me repeat what I have already said. We, as the Government, have requested the Technical Committee on Drafting the Zambian Constitution to hand over to His Excellency the President a formal report regarding the Constitution-making process on or before 31st December, this year. My statement was very clear as I was trying to establish the fact that it is not true that the Government has been contradicting itself on the Floor of this House regarding the Constitution-making process.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chipungu (Rufunsa): Mr Speaker, in the event that the Technical Committee on Drafting the Zambian Constitution does not hand-over the report on or before the 31st December, 2013, what will the Government do?
 
Mr Kabimba, SC.: Mr Speaker, the Government will wait for the Technical Committee on Drafting the Zambian Constitution to hand0-over the final report. We have given it a timeline against which to work which expires on 31st December, this year. We, therefore, expect it to hand-over the document on or before 31st December, 2013. Since I am not a member of the committee, I cannot state whether it will fail to do that or not.

I thank you, Sir.

Lt- Gen. Rev. Shikapwasha (Keembe): Mr Speaker, following the pronouncements by the Head of State that the Constitution only needs to be amended and that there is no need for a referendum, the people of Zambia want to know whether this is the direction Zambia will take as regards the Constitution-making process. 

Mr Kabimba, SC.: Mr Speaker, His Excellency the President appointed the Technical Committee on Drafting the Zambian Constitution with the expectation that it was going to complete its mandate of formulating the Constitution for this country. I think the statements by His Excellency the President should be understood within that context. If the President, indeed, did not want this process to proceed, as the appointing authority, he would have simply dissolved the committee.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwanza (Solwezi West): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether the Technical Committee on Drafting the Zambian Constitution will disband on 31st December, 2013 and if it will, is the PF Government going to allow the committee officials to buy the vehicles they drive?

Mr Kabimba, SC.: Mr Speaker, those are extraneous matters to my statement. We are currently dealing with the issue of the point of order raised by the hon. Member of Parliament for Mazabuka Central. The administrative issues regarding who buys how many vehicles from amongst the Technical Committee on Drafting the Zambian Constitution officials are not within the purview of my statement. 

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Kaingu (Mwandi): Mr Speaker, l would like to inform the hon. Minister that when we talk about the roadmap, we mean the strategy which will be used to complete the Constitution-making process. 

Lt-Gen Rev. Shikapwasha: On a point of order, Sir.

Dr Kaingu sat down.

Hon. Members: Continue.

Interruptions

Dr Kaingu rose.

Laughter

Dr Kaingu: Mr Speaker, when we talk about …

Lt-Gen. Rev. Shikapwasha: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Laughter

Lt-Gen. Rev. Shikapwasha: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister of Justice in order not to answer my question? My question was very simple. I wanted to find out whether the country should follow what President Sata said to us over the Constitution or not. I never asked about whether the Technical Committee on Drafting the Zambian Constitution will be disbanded or not. 

Mr Speaker: Hon. Minister as you continue responding, please bear that in mind.

Continue, hon. Member for Mwandi.

Dr Kaingu: Mr Speaker, l would like to inform the hon. Minister that when we talk about the roadmap, we mean the strategy that will be used to complete the Constitution-making process. 

Mr Speaker: I did not get your question.

Dr Kaingu: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister said the Technical Committee on Drafting the Zambian Constitution will hand-over ten copies of the Draft Constitution to the President on 31st December, 2013. That is not the roadmap. I want to find out the roadmap they will use to complete the Constitution-making process.

Mr Speaker: I think now the question is implied.
.
Mr Kabimba, SC.: Mr Speaker, His Excellency the President, in his speech to this House this year, said: 

“With regard to the Constitution-making process, the Government remains committed to delivering a people-driven Constitution. The consultative process has been completed and a final draft Constitution is expected by the end of this year. Thereafter, the Government, in collaboration with other stakeholders, will guide the process accordingly.”

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Imenda (Luena): Mr Speaker, if I heard the hon. Minister correctly, he said that after the Technical Committee on Drafting the Zambian Constitution hands over the ten copies of the Draft Constitution to the President, the Government will engage in consultations with its stakeholders. Who are the stakeholders who are being referred to?

Mr Kabimba, SC.: Mr Speaker, the stakeholders in this process are the people of Zambia.

Hon. Opposition Members: How?

Mr Kabimba, SC.: Mr Speaker, they are the owners of the final product to this process.

I thank you, Sir.

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo (Mumbwa): Mr Speaker, if I heard the Minister of Justice correctly, he said that comments on the Constitution-making process may derail it. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister how any comments …

Mr Mushanga: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mushanga: Mr Speaker, this is the second time I am rising on a point of order since I came to this House two years ago.

Dr Kaingu: You are inactive.

Mr Mushanga: Mr Speaker, is Hon. Muntanga in order to wrap himself in a Zambian flag instead of wearing a jacket? I need your serious ruling.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Well, the hon. Member for Kalomo Central is in order.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: It may appear like a flag from where you are standing, but it is actually a jacket.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Continue, hon. Member for Mumbwa.

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister of Justice how any comments on the Constitution-making process can derail the process when the Technical Committee on Drafting the Zambian Constitution, which is in the process of drafting the Constitution, has merely compiled the views of the people of Zambia. How can any comments on this process be unwelcome by the Government? 

Mr Kabimba, SC.: Mr Speaker, I did not say that any comments may be unwelcome by the Government. 

Sir, a week ago, there was a newspaper article in which one of the hon. Members of this House stated that he did not believe in the 50 per cent-plus 1 Constitution provision. That hon. Member was censured by his party president. The point I am emphasising is that in a democracy, we should be tolerant even of views that are not palatable to us. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kabimba, SC.: Sir, it is most unfair and oppressive for a few people to claim the monopoly of wisdom with regard to the formulation of the Constitution.  All of us are shareholders. If a member of a political party expresses a view divergent from that of his president, he should be let alone because he is speaking to the people of Zambia.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lombanya (Solwezi East): Mr Speaker, the Constitution-making process is very important to a country. However, what I can see is that the Government is leaving the people behind. If …

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member, let me provide guidance. 

Mr Lombanya: Mr Speaker, the question is …

Interruptions

Mr Lombanya: Sir, there will be no White Paper since the process was established through the provisions of the Inquiries Act. Normally, there is supposed to be a White Paper and Cabinet Memo.

Mr Mwila: Question!

Mr Speaker: Patience.

Mr Lombanya: Mr Speaker, the process of consultation will end when the final Draft Constitution is handed over to the President. However, I understand that there will be further consultations even after the document has been handed over to the President. How will the people know about the outcomes of the consultations because the roadmap ends at the presentation of the documents to the President? 

Mr Kabimba, SC.: Mr Speaker, the roadmap does not end with the handing over of the final Draft Constitution to the President. The process of debating the provisions of the Constitution, the letter and spirit of the Constitution, shall continue. This is what His Excellency the President meant in his opening speech …

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Kabimba, SC.: … to this House in 2013. Even after the technical committee completes its job, the debate process will still continue. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Speaker, I would like the hon. Minister of Justice to be very specific when responding to my question. The technical committee was formed to formulate the Constitution. It produced the first draft which went to the people for submissions so that it could come up with the final draft. Why is the final Draft Constitution going back to the people for more submissions? At what point will the exit strategy of the Constitution-making process be because at the moment it is like we are going round in circles? At what point will the process end? 

Mr Kabimba, SC.: Mr Speaker, at no time did I make that statement. I quoted His Excellency the President as having said that after the final draft has been handed over, the Government, in collaboration with other stakeholders, will guide the process accordingly. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kabimba, SC.: Sir, that is what I said. The consultations will involve hon. Members. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Mweetwa (Choma Central): Mr Speaker, if I got the hon. Minister correctly, he mentioned something to the effect that the Opposition and civil society organisations (CSOs) would like to exclude the Government from this Constitution-making process. Where has he gathered such a view? 

Mr Kabimba, SC.: Mr Speaker, I have personally participated in some of these fora on the Constitution-making process where I have expressed my personal views and, sometimes, those of the Government. The point I was forwarding was that the culture by the CSOs, in collaboration with some Members of the Opposition of claiming the monopoly of knowledge to the extent that only their views should prevail and dominate this process, is contrary to the tenets of democracy.  

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kabimba, SC.: Sir, this is the point I was making. 

Sir, this culture must be discouraged. We are a Government by the people for the people. We all campaigned and the people of Zambia decided to elect this Government. Therefore, we are fundamentally the ones that have been recognised by the people to protect their interests. 

Mr Speaker, I thank you. 

Mr Mufalali (Senanga): Mr Speaker, …

Mr Muntanga: On a point of order, Sir. 

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised. 

Mr Muntanga: Sir, is the hon. Minister of Justice in order to indicate that no one should claim the monopoly of knowledge regarding the process when his party, together with some churches and non-governmental organisations, refused to participate in the Constitution-making process when the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) was in power and believe that now they can do it on their own as though they are the only ones with the required knowledge? Is he in order to summersault in the way he has?

Mr Speaker: These are the points of order which amount to debating. I cannot sustain that point of order on that score. 

The hon. Member for Senanga may proceed. 

Mr Mufalali: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister of Justice how he intends to share with the stakeholders the contents of the copy which the technical committee will submit to the Executive. How will he share the contents with other stakeholders when they will not be aware of what will be contained in the copy which he will be given?

Mr Kabimba, SC.: Mr Speaker, I mentioned the fact that copies will be printed and distributed. What we are not agreeing to is the simultaneous and instantaneous hand-over of the copies to the President and the public. Copies will be given to every hon. Member and some citizens of this country so that they know what the technical committee has done.

I thank you, Sir 

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Mr Speaker, has the Government found it prudent to request the Technical Committee on Drafting the Zambian Constitution which it appointed to submit the final draft to the President on or before 31st December, 2013? Does this mean that the technical committee does not know when to submit the report to the President? 

Mr Kabimba, SC.: Mr Speaker, I deliberately used the word request instead of demand because we, in the PF, believe in civility. 

Mr Kalaba: Hear, hear!

Mr Kabimba, SC.: Sir, we are a …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kabimba, SC.: … group of civil men and women.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Kabimba, SC.: Sir, I am sure that the committee is aware that we have requested it to hand-over the Draft Constitution by the 31st December, 2013.

 I thank you, Sir.

Mr Hamudulu (Siavonga): Mr Speaker, I understand the hon. Minister…

Mr Mweetwa: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Speaker, you have guided time and again that statements made in this august House must be factual. Is the hon. Minister of Justice in order to attempt to mislead this House and the nation by stating that in the PF they believe in civility … 

Mr Kalaba: Yes.

Mr Mweetwa: … when the nation knows that it is a very violent party? 

Laughter

Mr Mweetwa: Sir, the hon. Minister of Justice told this nation that levels of indiscipline in PF are at the highest level ever seen in the political history of this country.

Laughter

Mr Mweetwa: Sir, is he in order to forget about the pangas which are carried by his party members and come here to say they believe in civility when they are such a violent grouping? I need your serious ruling.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: My ruling is that I heard the hon. Minister of Justice refer to a civil Government.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: That was the reference he made.

Mr Hamudulu: Mr Speaker, I understand and appreciate the hon. Minister’s agony in trying to address his boss’ inconsistency regarding the matter we are looking at. Hon. Minister, are you telling us to ignore the President’s latest pronouncement about the need to merely amend the current Constitution and not to come up with a new people-driven Constitution.

Mr Kabimba, SC.: Mr Speaker, I am not under any form of agony at all. I think I have easily answered all the questions. If the President wanted, he would have revoked the appointments of the members of the committee. Thus, I do not think that the President has contradicted himself in any way

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, we have been told, on several occasions, by the Government that it will adhere to the recommendations of the technical committee pertaining to the Constitution-making process. The question that begs an answer is: Is the Government going to adhere to the recommendations of the committee pertaining to the roadmap which should be taken regarding the Constitution-making process?

Mr Kabimba, SC.: Mr Speaker, a recommendation is just a suggestion. The Government has a duty to ensure that the document that is going to come out of this process derives its power from the people. The Constitution should derive its legitimacy from the people of Zambia. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr L. J. Ngoma (Sinda): Mr Speaker, if the hon. Minister of Justice wants a Constitution that is going to derive enough legitimacy from the public, why does he not agree with calls that the Draft Constitution should be simultaneously be handed over to His Excellency the President and the public at the same time? What are they hiding? What is their fear?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kabimba, SC.: Mr Speaker, I am not very sure whether that is the demand of the majority of the Zambians.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Kabimba, SC.: Sir, that should be the demand of a small section of people …

Mr Hamudulu: Question!

Mr Kabimba: … in Lusaka.

Mr Hamudulu: Question!

Mr Kabimba, SC.: Sir, we have no fear at all. What we want is to make sure that this process is carried out in a formal way. We want to avoid all forms of anarchy. No Government can function properly when there is anarchy. We shall do what is in the interest of the people.

I thank you, Sir.

___________

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

DISMISSED HEALTH WORKERS

213. Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central) asked the Minister of Health:

(a)    how many nurses, midwives and other health workers were recently dismissed for going on strike at the University Teaching Hospital (UTH) and other institutions;

(b)    whether operations at the affected institutions had been paralysed as a result of the dismissals; and

(c)    whether the Government would reinstate the health personnel unconditionally in order to protect the lives of the patients.

The Deputy Minister of Health (Dr Chilufya): Mr Speaker, the total number of nurses, midwives and other health workers who were issued with dismissal letters is 234. The process of discharging them has not yet been concluded as there is need to follow established procedures. Some of the employees involved have appealed. The 234 is broken done as follows: 

            Institution                Position               Number of Officers   
                                                                                                              Dismissed

University Teaching Hospital        Registered Nurses            57
                    Zambia Enrolled Nurses        58
                    Registered Midwives            25
                    Other Paramedics              1
                        Total                       141

Levy Mwanawasa General Hospital    Registered Nurses            15
                        Zambia Enrolled Nurses        28
    Registered Midwives               6
    Other Paramedics              0
         Total                 49

Livingstone General Hospital        Registered Nurses              5
                        Zambia Enrolled Nurses        23
                        Registered Midwives              0
                        Other Paramedics            16
                             Total                      244

Mr Speaker, the operations at the hospitals were affected, but not paralysed as a result of the dismissals. It is important to note that the number of nurses employed by the Ministry of Health is in excess of 15,000. Hence the dismissals cannot, in anyway, paralyse the operations of the institutions in question. In order to mitigate the situation further, the following measures have been taken:

(i)    the University Teaching Hospital (UTH) - the recruitment of sixty-three new nurses who have since started work and the deployment of senior nurses and students;

(ii)    Livingstone General Hospital – the recruitment of sixteen new nurses who have started reporting for work and deployment of senior nurses and student nurses as well as recalling of officers who are on leave to resume work; and

(iii)    Levy Mwanawasa General Hospital – the recruitment of twenty-three new nurses who have started reporting for work and deployment of senior nurses to continue providing service to the public.

Mr Speaker, all those nurses who went on an illegal strike and were issued with dismissal letters have been given an opportunity to exculpate themselves. The ministry has received appeals from the nurses which are being considered on an individual basis. Those individuals whose appeals are successful will be reinstated unconditionally.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I have listened very attentively to the statement that has been delivered by the hon. Deputy Minister of Health. It is full of contradictions. Under what conditions of service can they ask persons who have been dismissed to exculpate themselves?

The Minister of Health (Dr Kasonde): Mr Speaker, I am grateful for the opportunity given to me to explain, again, a process which I have already described before to this House. The first step is that a letter is written to the erring nurses charging them with an offence. 

Mr Mwiimbu: No!

Dr Kasonde: Sir, at that stage, the nurses have an opportunity to show cause why disciplinary action should not be taken against them.

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: I will not allow that point of order. He has to finish with the explanation. 

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: I will not allow the point of order.

You may continue hon. Minister.

Dr Kasonde: Sir, after the nurses respond in writing when asked to show cause why disciplinary action should not be taken against them, action is taken. That is why the Deputy Minister was at pains to explain that we cannot, at this stage, give a final list of those who have been dismissed because the process is on-going.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Let me provide guidance. If you have questions, please ask them. If you have exhausted your slot, I cannot advise on how you can ask the hon. Minister your question. Just find a way somehow. Let us not use points of order indiscriminately.

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Thank you, Mr Speaker …

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised. 

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I need your serious ruling on this matter. When the hon. Deputy Minister of Health was responding to my question, he indicated that those who have been dismissed have been asked to exculpate themselves. However, the statement that has come from the hon. Minister of Health is a totally different statement explaining the procedure as I know it. Are they in order to start contradicting themselves on the Floor of this House, when they are the ones who were making the statement?

Mr Speaker: I hope the point is taken. However, for avoidance of doubt, the issue the hon. Member of Parliament for Monze Central is raising is that there is a contradiction between the statement which was issued by the hon. Deputy Minister of Health and the clarification made the hon. Minister. I think I understand that to be the issue.

Hon. Minister, please, as you continue responding to the questions, take that into account.

May the hon. Member of Parliament for Kalomo Central continue, please.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, in fact my question is in that line. We were informed that all the nurses who were on strike were fired …

Ms Kalima: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Ms Kalima: Thank you, Mr Speaker, for allowing me to stand and raise my point of order.

Sir, yesterday, on Muvi Television, the Auditor-General, Ms Anna Chifungula, revealed that the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) had been abused by some hon. Deputy Ministers. She even mentioned the names of the hon. Deputy Ministers and demanded that they pay back the money which they had misused. Those who are in the Cabinet have stated that they hate corruption. Their President, who is also my President, is allergic to corruption. Are the hon. Ministers of Justice and Home Affairs in order to keep quiet, especially that we are rising on Friday, without informing the House as to what exactly happened and what exactly they are doing about it? Mr Speaker, I seek your serious ruling.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: My ruling is that, although we are rising this Friday, we will resume business in February, …

Laughter

Mr Speaker: … I think, on the 11th. Therefore, the process of receiving questions is an on-going process. The process of those on my left holding those on the right to account is also a constant process. So, in short, hon. Member of Parliament for Kasenengwa, file a question.

May the hon. Member of Parliament for Kalomo Central continue, please.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, before the point of order was raised I was saying that last week, in this House, it was announced that all the nurses that had gone on strike had been fired. I asked a question regarding how the fired nurses were going to be replaced. How is it, now, that after having fired everybody who refused to resume work as confirmed by the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security, they should say that the process was not complete and that they are still studying the charges? How is it possible?

Mr Speaker: I think this is more or less the same issue which the hon. Member of Parliament for Monze Central was raising. May the hon. Minister clarify, please.

Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, what we are interested in is the content …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order on my right!

Dr Kasonde: … of the appeal letter. In the event that a person who has received a letter of dismissal, through his or her letter provides conclusive evidence that he or she ought to be reinstated, that will be done.

Sir, I think it is important for us to consider the appeals of those who have come forward after receiving their letters of dismissal. I think, every sensitive and listening Government, such as ours, will allow that to happen. That is my explanation.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Kaingu (Mwandi): Mr Speaker, if I heard the hon. Deputy Minister correctly, …

Mr Mbewe: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, I apologise to my vice-president for interrupting his question.

Laughter

Mr Mbewe: Sir, is the hon. Minister of Health, who is drinking water now, in order to misinform this House by saying that before this House adjourns sine die, he would have launched the 650 health posts. We are rising on Friday, and I do not see this work being done before Friday. Is he in order to keep quiet and not inform us that he has changed his mind?

I need your serious ruling, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member, file a question.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kaingu: Mr Speaker, before the point of order was raised, I was saying that if I heard the hon. Deputy Minister correctly, he stated that those who have been fired have already been replaced. Is there hope for the pardoning of the fired nurses since the Government has already employed other people in their place?

Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, the process of recruiting staff for the Ministry of Health has been on-going. In that process, 800 nurses had already queued up for jobs in the Ministry of Health. It so happens that some nurses decided not to work. Surely, the logical thing to do in such circumstances is to use those who have now joined for the activities that were being undertaken by those who have left.

Hon. Government Member: As simple as that.

Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, it seems straightforward to me.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Lt-Gen. Rev. Shikapwasha (Keembe): Mr Speaker, it is tragic for us to see nurses being dismissed from their tour of duty. By firing these nurses, is this Government not giving an example to Konkola Copper Mines and many others who have wanted to reduce their labour force? Does this not give an impression that now that the Government itself is dismissing its own people, other companies should follow suit?

Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, the observations of the hon. Member differ, not only from the principles established by the Industrial and Labour Relations Act, but also with what those who have appealed to be re-instated have been saying. Those who have appealed to be re-instated have admitted that they made a mistake and that the punishment that should be meted out against them is that of dismissal. However, they have asked us to look at some factors and in those circumstances, re-admit them. That differs with the observations of the hon. Member. Secondly, the law distinguishes between essential workers and others. The law, in Chapter 269 of the Industrial and Labour Relations Act, makes a clear definition of who are essential workers. Therefore, it is clear that the offences committed by those who are essential workers are not punishable through the same route as those who are not.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Kalila (Lukulu East): Mr Speaker, many citizens have offended the State before, and following their cries for mercy, it has, in most instances, rescinded its decision and pardoned them. For instance, the State pardoned Shoprite Management and Lundazi-based Catholic priest Fr Banyangandora. If you are truly a listening Government, why are you refusing to re-instate these nurses unconditionally? Are you victimising them because they are defenseless women? If they were miners, you would have re-instated them.

Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, it seems the hon. Member has failed to appreciate the fact that, at this stage, the process has not been completed. Each individual case has to be considered on its own merits. This process must be allowed to continue. That is what I said.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Hamudulu (Siavonga): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has indicated that the process is continuing and that, there is probably room for some of those nurses to be re-instated. Since dismissal is final, why did they not just suspend the nurses first so that they would have had time to study their cases individually before making final decisions?

Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, there is guidance in the law as to what to do in the event of illegal industrial action. We followed those guidelines.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Miyanda (Mapatizya): Mr Speaker, in his response, the hon. Deputy Minister did give us figures of nurses from the Levy Mwanawasa General Hospital, Livingstone General Hospital and the UTH, who are victims of the situation. I would like to know why the Ndola Central Hospital has been left out when nurses from there also went on strike.

Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, I would be most grateful for any information …

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Dr Kasonde: …on anybody …

Mr Livune: Question!

Dr Kasonde: … who committed a crime and is being protected. In this case, the information we have is that there were no nurses at the Ndola Central Hospital who reached the point of being dismissed. It is a crime to protect a criminal. Thus, I look forward to that information from the hon. Member.

I thank you, Sir.

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo (Mumbwa): Mr Speaker, this incident is very sad. Can the hon. Minister admit to this House that, in fact, mistakes were made by both sides? Having realised that both sides made mistakes and since he is representing a father, should the Government not have been more forgiving in this case?

Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, I think there are two elements here. First of all, there is the question of whether the Government made a mistake, which I deny completely. Secondly, I support the suggestion of a father being forgiving. However, forgiving begins when there is admission of guilt. In this case, my recollection is of defiant nurses doing the wrong thing like dancing outside wards. So the question of forgiveness at this point does not arise.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr L. J. Ngoma (Sinda): Mr Speaker, this is a very thorny matter. May the hon. Minister of Health  accept that as far as …

Lt-Gen. Rev. Shikapwasha: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Lt-Gen. Rev. Shikapwasha: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister in order to say that the question of forgiveness does not arise when Jesus Christ forgave him without conditions? I need him to tell the nation why he cannot forgive the nurses unconditionally.

Mr Speaker: Hon. Minister, as we wind up the question and answer session on this subject, please take into account the intercession by the hon. Member for Keembe.

Laughter

Mr L. J. Ngoma: Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister of Health accept that as far as this problem and impasse with the nurses is concerned, he has mishandled it and failed the people of Zambia and, therefore, …

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, thank you for allow me this chance to rise on a point of order. Is the hon. Member on the Floor in order to state that the hon. Minister has failed us when the nation needed him to show good leadership at this critical moment? When nurses were dancing outside wards and his relatives were dying on beds, the hon. Member remained mute. Is he in order to show concern today for the same nurses who were dancing and causing the deaths of citizens? I seek your serious ruling.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: That point does not qualify as a point of order.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr L. J. Ngoma: Mr Speaker, your rulings will forever remain wonderful.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: It appears that is a selective comment.

Laughter

Mr L. J. Ngoma: Mr Speaker, I wanted to find out whether the hon. Minister of Health can confirm that as far as this issue of nurses is concerned, he has failed the Zambian people by mishandling it and that it is him who should be dismissed and should, therefore, resign.

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, I find myself in the humble position of being able to let the people be the judges. I am, therefore, unable to say to the hon. Member whether I consider myself to have failed him and the public. I will let the public judge whether, in this case, our conduct was less than impeccable.

Sir, as regards the matter raised by the hon. Member for Keembe in his point of order, I also have to respond in an equally humble manner. There is a level at which I submit to supernatural forces. I will revert to the supernatural forces on this matter in the normal way of my privacy and not in public discussions. I shall follow the advice of the hon. Member. We happen to have a chapel at the UTH. It will be a suitable location for the hon. Member and I to convene before the next meeting here.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter

Lt-Gen Rev. Shikapwasha indicated assent.

Mr Speaker: It appears that invitation has been accepted.{mospagebreak}

PRIME MINISTER

214. Mr Mutelo (Lukulu West) asked the Vice-President:

(a)    when the position of Prime Minister was introduced and abolished in Zambia;

(b)    when the position of Vice-President was first introduced and why.

The Deputy Minister in the Vice-President’s Office (Mr Mwango): Mr Speaker, the position of Prime Minister was first introduced in Zambia on 25th August, 1973 and abolished on 31st August, 1991. The position of the Vice-President was first introduced in Zambia on 24th October, 1964 and abolished on 25th August, 1973. However, the position was re-instated in 1991. The reasons behind the re-introduction and abolition of the position of the Vice-President are constitutional amendments by Parliament and can only be appreciated by the Legislature of the time.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mutelo: Sir, being a legislator now, I want to know why those changes would have just been appreciated by those who were in this House at that time because they affect me today.

Mr Mwango: Sir, I did not get the question clearly.

Mr Speaker: What is the question? Repeat it, please.

Mr Mutelo: Sir, in his response, the hon. Deputy Minister in the Vice-President’s Office mentioned that the changes regarding these positions could only be appreciated by the parliamentarians who were there at the time. Now, being a parliamentarian today, I want to know why the changes occurred.

The Minister of Home Affairs and Acting Leader of Government Business in the House (Mr E. C. Lungu): Mr Speaker, I want to urge the hon. Member of Parliament to take lessons in constitutional law and history so that he can understand why Parliament at that time changed the law to provide for the introduction or abolition of the aforementioned positions.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Kalila: Sir, thank you for giving me an opportunity to just seek a clarification …

Mr Mutelo: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mutelo: Mr Speaker, the Acting Leader of Government Business in the House, who is sitting in the Vice-President’s seat, is a learned person in law and is well read. Like he has said, I am not learned in law. Therefore, is he in order not to explain to me these matters since he is learned?

Laughter 

Mr Speaker: As we continue with the question and answer session, if the Acting Leader of Government Business in the House is able to respond to that on the basis that he is learned counsel, I will give him the liberty to do so. 

Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Speaker, …

Mr Speaker: Sorry, not immediately. The hon. Member for Lukulu East was about to ask a supplementary question.

Dr Kalila: Mr Speaker, I seek a small clarification on a point of history because I did not get the response correctly. It is nothing serious. I just want to know the dates which he gave. I missed the first part as regards when the position of Prime Minister was introduced and when it was abolished.

Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Speaker, the position of Vice-President was first introduced in Zambia on 24th October, 1964 and was abolished on 25th August, 1973.

I thank you, Sir.
    
Mr Speaker: Are you able to respond to the question by …

Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Speaker, I will invite the hon. Member to come to my office tomorrow morning so that I can enlighten him on the history.

I thank you, Sir.

BAROTSELAND AGREEMENT 

215. Mr Ndalamei (Sikongo) asked the Minister of Home Affairs:

(a)    how many people were arrested in the Western Province in connection with the Barotseland Agreement of 1964 as of 30th September, 2013; and

(b)    when the Government would resolve the issue of the Barotseland Agreement which is the root cause of the political unrest in the province.

The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Kampyongo): Mr Speaker, as of 30th September, 2013, no person was arrested in the Western Province in connection with the Barotseland Agreement of 1964.

Sir, the Patriotic Front (PF) Government believes that the Barotseland Agreement is not the root cause of any political unrest in the Western Zambia or any part of Zambia. The problem is general underdevelopment which this Government has started addressing through the implementation of the Decentralisation Policy as already seen by the creation of new districts, the bulk of which are in Western Province.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ndalamei: Mr Speaker, why did the Government arrest people who were only reminding it of its campaign promise to restore the Barotseland Agreement within ninety days?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, the Government did not arrest people who were talking about the Barotseland Agreement. However, the Government, through the Zambia Police Force, arrested eighty-four persons on allegations bordering on treason. These people have since appeared in court and been discharged.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, for the benefit of the hon. Minister of Home Affairs who may not be aware of the charges that were leveled against those particular individuals, the treason charges arose out of the Barotseland Agreement whereby it was purportedly said that they were agitating for the secession of the Barotseland from Zambia. Is the hon. Minister not aware of this?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, I am not aware that these people were talking about the agreement. The hon. Member has talked about secession when Zambia is a unitary State. It is one country. We have all had the chance to read the agreement in question. That is why I have rejected the allegation that the Government arrested people based on that agreement. So, the people were arrested for their conduct which was deemed to be treasonable.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyutu: Mr Speaker, …

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Sir.
    
Mr Miyutu: Mr Speaker,  …
    
Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Miyutu: … I have heard the response from the hon. Minister …

Mr Speaker: Order! Both hon. Members, please, sit down.

I note a trend emerging where, whenever we are not satisfied with responses, we want to engage immediately. I hope that is not the case in Hon. Mwiimbu’s case.

A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, you have always guided, and it is the tradition of this house and the Commonwealth that when you come to the House to give a statement or an answer to a question, you must be very factual. Is the hon. Minister in order to start misleading the House on issues that are clear without seeking to take leave so that he can come back and give a clear statement on the issues he is raising otherwise the statement he is making will be misleading and will continue to cause tension in this country? Is he in order to continue in that line?

Mr Speaker: Hon. Minister, as you continue responding on this subject, make yourself clear.

Mr Miyutu: Mr Speaker, I stand here with a heavy heart at the fact that the hon. Deputy Minister is failing to state the truth on the Floor of this House.  I stay in Kalabo. Is the hon. Deputy Minister not aware that people have been arrested in Kalabo and released for one thing which is secession in the sense that they want their land back? Is the land which the hon. Deputy Minister is talking about not Barotseland? Is he not aware of that situation?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, I thank the former hon. Deputy Minister for his follow-up question.

Laughter

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, I am not aware that people were arrested in Kalabo, where he comes from, for the reasons he has stated. I indicated, here, that we have different arms of the Government. As the ministry charged with the responsibility of law enforcement, we have our own jurisdiction. The other matters are for the courts to interpret. What we did, through our police, was to arrest people who were conducting themselves in a manner that was causing a breach of the peace. That is what we did.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Dr Kaingu: Mr Speaker, …

Ms Kalima: On a point of order, Sir.

Dr Kaingu: … “One Zambia, One Nation” was not the creation of Dr Kaunda. It was brought about by the unification of the Barotseland and North-Eastern Rhodesia.

Ms Kalima: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: I am not allowing any points of order.

Ms Kalima: Ooh.

Laughter

Dr Kaingu: Sir, is the hon. Minister in order not to allude to when his Government will enshrine this very important motto in the Constitution?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, I think that the question by Hon. Ndalamei was very clear. I would not want to dwell on matters which are not connected to that question.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Kalila: Mr Speaker, my question is specifically related to part (b) of the question.

Mr Speaker, I am aware that in trying to resolve the Barotseland Agreement question, His Excellency the President appointed a commission of inquiry that went round the Western Province to collect submissions over the matter. I would like to know when the report will be made public if it will ever be made public.

Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Speaker, the commission of inquiry that the Government is aware of is the one which looked at the riots which took place in Mongu where some lives were lost. It, at no time, dealt with the contents of the Barotseland Agreement. The unrest in the Western Province has been attributed to the levels of poverty which are quite high. The hon. Deputy Minister stated that in our quest to deliver development across the board countrywide, we are, in fact, working hard to uplift the living standards of the people of the Western Province. The report which was done by that commission of inquiry was related to the riots, which were the aftermath of cries by some individuals to secede from the rest of Zambia, and that is an affront to the slogan of “One Zambia, One Nation”. Therefore, if we are saying that we are “One Zambia, One Nation” then we should share the cake equitably and that is what we are trying to do.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, in the answers by the hon. Deputy Minister and the hon. Minister, as to when they would enforce the Barotseland Agreement, their answer was that they are decentralising by taking development to the different parts of the country, including the Western Province.

Mr Speaker, primarily, the Barotseland Agreement does not talk about secession, it talks about decentralisation.

Mr Miyutu: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Order!

I said that I am not taking any points of order.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, the Barotseland does not talk about secession. It talks about self rule and decentralisation. Since the party in power is committed to the implementation of the Decentralisation Policy, what, then, is its problem with the enforcement of the Barotseland Agreement in totality?

Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Speaker, the people who have taken time to read the Barotseland Agreement will agree with me that it talks about getting people to participate at the local level in the development process, and this is what we are trying to do in our decentralisation approach. As far as we are concerned, the Barotseland Agreement contains some of the things we aspire for countrywide. The people should govern themselves and determine their destiny by sharing their resources. Therefore, I have not seen any contradiction between what we are doing as the PF Government and the contents of the Barotseland Agreement. For that reason, we are quite comfortable in the knowledge that we still remain “One Zambia, One Nation”. We will deliver development and recognise the traditional institutions of chiefdoms countrywide. 

Mr Speaker, I am very comfortable in the knowledge that Zambia is moving on as “One Zambia, One Nation”.

I thank you, Sir.

__________
    
MOTION
REPORT OF THE PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMITTEE ON THE REPORT OF THE AUDITOR-GENERAL ON THE RDA FOR THE PERIOD OCTOBER, 2009 TO DECEMBER, 2011

Mr Mwale (Chipangali): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that this House do adopt the Report of the Public Accounts Committee on the Report of the Auditor-General on the Road Development Agency (RDA) for the period October, 2009 to December, 2011 for the Third Session of the Eleventh National Assembly laid on the Table of the House on the 4th of December, 2013.

Mr Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Mr Zimba (Chama North): Mr Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

Mr Mwale: Mr Speaker, your Committee, in line with its terms of reference specified in Standing Order No. 153 (2), undertook a detailed study of the Auditor-General’s Report of the RDA for the period October, 2009 to December, 2011.

Mr Speaker, before I delve into some of the matters raised in your Committee’s report, let me thank the Auditor-General for producing yet another detailed audit report on the RDA. This report has given us an opportunity to appreciate how the RDA has been operating since the last audit report of 2010.

Mr Speaker, allow me to mention from the outset that your Committee attaches great importance to accountability in road infrastructure development for the simple reason that no country can develop without good roads. From time immemorial, one of the main indicators of a nation’s development has been the state of its road infrastructure or lack of it. Well-planned and maintained roads are critical to human development and help in overcoming poverty in society. It is for this reason that the road infrastructure has for a long time attracted relatively more funding than other sectors. For example, the allocation in the 2013 Budget to road infrastructure was 10.7 per cent of the National Budget, while in the 2014 Budget, the allocation has increased to 12 per cent.

Mr Speaker, let me now turn to the audit report. The objectives of the audit were, among others, to ascertain whether procurement procedures were followed in the award of contracts, whether or not road projects were administered in accordance with contract agreements, and whether the expenditure was in conformity with the laws of Zambia.

Mr Speaker, your Committee expressed concern that there still exists a lot of irregularities in the procurement processes of the RDA. Firstly, there is general failure to adhere to financial regulations, poor record-keeping and other related weaknesses. As indicated in your Committee’s report, a lot of funds were irregularly spent as set out below: 

(i)    inadequately supported payments       -    K198,385,940;

(ii)    missing payment vouchers                 -    K147,098,681;

(iii)    unretired imprest                               -    K136,075,039; and
 
(iv)    unaccounted for revenue                   -     K28,254,240.

Mr Speaker, all these anomalies are administrative in nature and the blame for this could fall squarely on the controlling officer at the Ministry of Transport, Works, Supply and Communications, and the RDA management for poor supervision resulting in failure to adhere to financial regulations and procedures. This is unacceptable, especially given the fact that the RDA boasts of a fully-fledged accounting unit. What is more disappointing to your Committee is that despite these irregularities, the RDA has not taken any disciplinary action against officers responsible for the irregularities. Therefore, I wish to challenge the management of the RDA not to continue letting down the nation in the way they manage public resources.

Mr Livune: Shame.

Mr Mwale: Sir, as regards the procurement processes, your Committee is disappointed that the Auditor-General has reported widespread failure by the RDA to adhere to procurement procedures. After analysing the anomalies raised by the Auditor-General and responses from the Controlling Officer, your Committee has come to the conclusion that most of these instances were due to political pressure exerted on the RDA by the Executive arm of the Government.

Mr Speaker, let me illustrate this by using the procurement and implementation of the famous Formula 1 Project. As you are aware, in 2011, the RDA embarked on a road project called Formula 1, which earmarked the rehabilitation and upgrading of 292 km of urban roads, covering eleven districts in the Lusaka, Central and Copperbelt provinces. In this regard, the RDA awarded eleven contracts valued at K947 billion in May, 2011.

Sir, your Committee was informed that due to pressure from the Executive to implement the projects, even outside the RDA’s work plans, the institution ended up using a questionable procurement method which limited the bidding to a few eligible consortia of contractors. The procurement processes lacked competitiveness, as Section 29 Sub-Section 2 of the Zambia Public Procurement Authority (ZPPA) Act does not state that a consortium can qualify to procure goods and services using this method.

Mr Speaker, your Committee was also informed that as a result of the same pressure, despite the contracts being of different scopes in terms of the length of the roads, number of roads and locations of the roads, the RDA awarded the contracts with a uniform completion period of six months. There was no technical basis upon which the RDA arrived at the six months period other than the point that the Executive urged the RDA to complete the projects in six months.

Sir, this led to massive extensions. However, some projects had still not been completed fifteen months after the commencement dates. Your Committee finds this unfortunate as what is happening is at variance with the essence of creating the RDA, which was to bring about efficiency in the planning, maintenance and management of the core road network of Zambia. There is, therefore, urgent need to put measures in place to avoid such occurrences that are costly to the nation. Your Committee is of the view that the Executive should have its input incorporated at the planning stages in order to minimise on the deviation from the work plans.

Mr Speaker, in addition to the above, the Auditor-General has, again, revealed several weaknesses in the management of the contracts. Some of the issues linked to the poor project management of contracts were:

(i)    delayed engagements of consultancy on projects;

(ii)    non-availability of designs and drawings;

(iii)    non-submission of performance bonds;

(iv)    delays in completion of works; and

(v)    failure to observe contract provisions.

Sir, the RDA is an institution whose creation this House supported by passing the National Roads Act No. 12 of 2002. We, therefore, have an obligation to ensure that the highlighted deficiencies are urgently dealt with, and the RDA is put back on track.

In the view of your Committee, one of the immediate actions which urgently needs to be taken is that of the hon. Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communications appointing the Board of Directors of the RDA. The prevailing circumstance where RDA only has the Board Chairperson is unacceptable and should not be allowed to continue. As you know, the development of road infrastructure has been known to be prone to fraud and corruption. The Government should ensure that principles …

Mr Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

Mr Mwale: Mr Speaker, before we went for break, I stated that the development of road infrastructure had been known to be prone to fraud and corruption. The Government should ensure that principles of good corporate governance are promoted in order to create confidence in the system.

Sir, in conclusion, I wish to thank you and the Office of the Clerk for the support provided to your Committee during its deliberations. I, further, wish to thank all witnesses who made submissions to your Committee and later appeared before it, for the oral presentations and in-depth discussions.

Finally, I wish to express your Committee’s gratitude for the invaluable input from the offices of the Auditor-General, the Accountant-General and the Controller of Internal Audits during the consideration of the submissions from the witnesses.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

Mr Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Mr Zimba: Now, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker, I want to thank you for giving me the opportunity to add my voice to the Motion on the Floor of the House.

Sir, allow me to start by paying tribute to the mover of the Motion, Hon. Vincent Mwale, for not only the able manner in which he has highlighted the key issues contained in your report, but also the leadership he has exhibited for a long time when handling matters to do with your Committee.

Mr Speaker, as alluded to by the mover of the Motion, that audit conducted by the Auditor-General on the RDA has revealed a lot of disturbing occurrences which demonstrate a complete disregard of the well established practices and procurement procedures. This has led to the agency losing the confidence of the public.

Sir, the wanton disregard of the procedures established by the Government to guide the procurement, implementation and management of projects had continued to be a drain on national resources. This has undermined the good intentions of the Government. In fact, it has eroded the public institutional integrity of the RDA. 

Mr Speaker, as the mover has mentioned, one of the reasons the RDA was formed was to promote efficiency in the construction of road infrastructure. With the massive irregularities we have continued to witness, this objective will not be realised unless something cardinal is done. I will better explain what I am trying to say by citing one example from the report.

Sir, on 16th September, 2010, the RDA, guided by the Zambia Public Procurement Authority (ZPPA), took a very strange decision to enter into a contract with Wade Adams Filling and Foundations Limited for the upgrading of 65 km of road being lot 1 of Road MO20 in Central Province at a contract sum of K80 billion with a completion period of 18 months. I consider the decision strange because the contractor in question was awarded this contract despite not having being subjected to a technical evaluation committee to determine its capacity to carry out the works.

Mr Speaker, as fate would have it, on 22th September, 2011, eleven months after the signing of the contract, the RDA terminated the contract citing non-performance and failure to mobilise most of the contractors equipment, laboratory and key personnel. As if this was not enough, this same contractor claimed damages for wrongful termination of contract and after an arbitration process he was awarded an amount of K15.6 billion.

Sir, this is an illustration of what can happen if professionals and technocrats decide to disregard laid-down procedures. In this case, the country has not only lost money, but has also suffered a huge opportunity cost as this road should have been benefiting the people of the Central Province by now. Let me, therefore, take this opportunity to call upon the professionals in the RDA and the ZPPA to be protectors of public resources by making decisions that serve public good and are not costly to the nation. 

Mr Speaker, the second matter that has been creating a lot of inefficiency in the construction of road infrastructure is that the designs or drawings in most cases are not ready at the time of tendering for the works. This is usually the genesis of many implementation problems. The purpose of designs or drawings is to help parties comprehensively identify the scope of the project and eliminate possible inappropriation, inefficiencies, error, omission, fault or other defects during implementation. The designs are also the major input in the preparation of the engineer’s estimates and the bill of quantities. This is unacceptable because, as was admitted by the Secretary to the Treasury when he appeared before your Committee, this leads to unwarranted variations that are costly to the nation. The Government should stop this practice.

Sir, last but not least, let me appeal to the Secretary to the Treasury and the RDA management to streamline the funding arrangements to the RDA so that payments due to various contactors are paid within the times stipulated in the contracts. I say so because during the period under review, a total amount of K2.9 billion was paid as interest on delayed payments of certified claims. This money could have been used in a more beneficial way.

Mr Speaker, let me end by urging all hon. Members of the House to support the Motion. With those remarks I beg to second the Motion.

I thank you, Sir. 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mooya (Moomba): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me this chance to discuss the Motion which is on the Floor of the House. First of all, let me commend you for postponing …

Ms Kalima: On point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker:  A point of order is raised.

Ms Kalima:  Mr Speaker, I thank you for allowing me to rise on this point of order over a very urgent matter especially that we are discussing public accounts which need to be accounted for. 

Mr Speaker, as I go to my point of order, I will refer to a number of documents. On the 27th of November, 2013, a tender to supply urea fertiliser was advertised for the quantity of 41,985.5 metric tonnes. 

Sir, this tender was issued selectively to a few companies which had participated in bidding for the tender which was earlier cancelled. This tender excluded the Eastern Province, whose inputs are expected to be delivered by Tanzanian trucks. As of yesterday, 350 metric tonnes had been delivered to the province at a price of US$200 per tonne. 

Mr Speaker, yesterday, on 9th December, 2013, the tender was closed. Three companies were awarded this tender.

  Sir, firstly, I want to mention that the selective tender was issued to eight companies, but only six companies namely Nyiombo Investments, Louis Dreyfus Commodities, Norwood Enterprises, Neria Investments, OLOCHIA Investments and Vision Vest Ltd were invited to tender.   

Mr Speaker, on page 18, under ITB 32.3(d) of the tender document which I am holding, it is stated that:  

“Delivery: Ex-stock within the country, Zambia, preferably stock should be within the Zones bidders are quoting for. Bidders are strictly requested to state the quantities available within the country. Award will be based on availability of stock within Zambia with competitive price offers.”

Mr Speaker, yesterday, three companies were awarded this tender. They were awarded 18,000 metric tonnes, 10,000 metric tonnes and 14,000 metric tonnes each.

Sir, after many assurances, is the hon. Minister in order not to inform the House that, indeed, our lamentations, as nationals of Zambia, were true when we got worried that the imported urea fertiliser would not reach the farmers on time and that, now, they have decided to procure the fertiliser locally? Is it in order for the Government to award the tender without verifying the stocks of the companies which have been asked to supply the fertiliser? I want to mention that the letter of award reads that: “It is the intention of the Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock to place a contract with the company subject to verification of stock and clearance of the contract.” The tender document states that stocks should be verified before the tender is awarded. 

Sir, in this case, contracts have been awarded without the verification of the stocks. Is the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Livestock in order not to come to this House and inform the nation that, actually, they made a mistake? Instead, they have decided to procure fertiliser locally without the verification of the stocks. That is a disaster. I seek your serious ruling.

Ms Kalima laid the paper on the Table.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: In view of the nature of the point of order raised by the hon. Member for Kasenengwa, my direction is that she files an urgent question which will be processed with due dispatch. That is my ruling.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mooya: Mr Speaker, before that point of order, I was commending you for postponing the discussing of this Motion to today. The Auditor-General’s Report shows systematic failure in the road sector. All is not well. The root cause has not yet been addressed and problems still persist. 

Sir, a look at the road sector from January, 2006 to September, 2009, shows the same pattern of challenges and problems. From October, 2009 to December, 2012, there was the same pattern of mismanagement of road contracts which has resulted in the loss of public resources. This tells us that the root causes have not yet been addressed and problems still persist. In 2011, I remember that the new RDA team told the nation that the institution would be rebranded in 100 days and that the tag of corruption would be removed. That was at the beginning of last year. Now, this has not happened because the rebranding system should involve all other stakeholders and not the RDA alone because stakeholders are part of the problems too. 

Mr Speaker, we have heard that the politicians are exerting pressure on the RDA to give contracts without working on drawings or designs. The consultants and the contractors are part of the problems being faced by the RDA. The problems cannot be solved by the RDA alone. The whole system needs to be worked on. In order for the RDA to be rebranded, all the people involved in its operations need total transformation. What is required here is to carry out a study to look at the past and the present performance of the RDA. All the stakeholders should examine the root causes of the failures and successes in detail. Then, we can use the study to draw up a strategy and plan to ensure the success of the RDA.  

Sir, from 2002 to date, it is eleven years down the road, but we still have these problems. The beginning was very promising. I remember the pioneers of this system, Mr Jara and Mr Granada, went all over the world lecturing on the same. Some neighbouring and other far-away countries even invited these two gentlemen to go and lecture on the same. Today, those countries have made more progress than Zambia. They have succeeded but we, the pioneers, have failed. Like I said earlier, what is required here is to transform and rebrand the RDA. An independent study is required if ever we are to correct these mistakes. 

Sir, I do not believe in blaming the RDA alone for its failures because its work involves other stakeholders such as politicians. I pity my fellows at the RDA because they are subjected to pressure from the politicians. 

Ms Imenda: Which ones?

Mr Mooya: You know those in the system.

Hon. Members: No.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member, address the Speaker.

Mr Mooya: Thank you, Sir.

Laughter

Mr Mooya: Mr Speaker, the politicians including myself are exerting pressure on the professionals. We are supposed to let the professionals work professionally. In addition to this, I think we need to come up with a mechanism whereby those engineers who want to work professionally can be protected from being transferred, dropped or sacked. We need to protect them. I know most of them want to work professionally, but they fear because we, the politicians, interfere in their work. So, what I am saying in short is that, we need the entire transformation and rebranding of the RDA as well as the mindsets of other stakeholders in the road sector. That is my general comment.

Mr Speaker, let me now make one or two specific comments on the Public Accounts Committee’s report since the mover and the seconder have already told us about the contents of the report in detail. Let me draw the attention of the House to the contract by the Wade Adams Company. According to what I know, the Wade Adams Company was paid K48 billion and not K15 billion out of a contract sum of K80 billion. You cannot work on a project without working designs. That is a taboo in this field. However, this is done because of pressure …

Hon. Government Members: What pressure?

Mr Mooya: Yes, I am speaking from experience, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: I am not contending anything myself.

Mr Mooya: Mr Speaker, this is done because of pressure from politicians, including myself. How can you sign a contract without the bill of quantities, designs or estimates? You cannot let the contractor go on site without these requirements.  Things are supposed to happen the other way round. You must first come up with the designs and estimates. Then you allow the contractors to bid, and if possible, go for the cheapest source and not single sourcing.

Mr Speaker, the other issue that I want to talk about is the composition of the Public Accounts Committee (PAC). I remember, early this year, an hon. Member of Parliament from your far right raised a query on the composition of the Committee. He stated that we needed to have more accountants in this Committee. I think he was somehow right because we need people who are relevant to the work of this Committee. I feel that this PAC needs strengthening.

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised. 

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, I would like to apologise to the hon. Member on the Floor for disturbing his flow of thought. However, is the hon. Member, who is a seasoned engineer, in order to just state that political interference can cost the nation huge sums of money without being specific by stating that actually the political pressure before elections is exerted by those who do not work to the people’s expectations during their tenure like in the Wade Adams Company case because this contract was signed just before the 2011 Elections? Is he in order not to specifically state that it is not right for the Government to put pressure on the RDA just before elections? I seek your ruling, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: The problem with the issue which has been raised by Hon. Kampyongo is that it amounts to debating through a point of order which is not permissible. Further, let me seize this opportunity to remind the hon. Member on the Floor that it is inappropriate to go back or re-open a Motion we debated earlier on, namely relating to the composition of this Committee. You are at liberty to discuss issues of accountability, but not the composition of PAC at this juncture. Whatever one has to say about it, it is late in the day. Maybe, next time round, we can revisit your thoughts.

Continue, Hon. Mooya.

Mr Mooya: Thank you, Sir, for your guidance.

Mr Chairperson, I was talking about the working drawings. The seconder raised questions regarding variations. Whenever there are many variations, there is need for amendments to the contract. If the variations are more than 15 per cent of the scope of work, then there is need to call for amendments to the contract. What I have seen from the report is that what I am saying is not being done. The Attorney-General is supposed to come in and re-start the system all over. Similarly, on the issue of delayed interests, I think there is more to it because the figures mentioned are a just a tip of an ice berg. There are a lot of issues involved. There could also be idle time because a contractor may stop working because of a delayed payment. So, there are other assorted costs which have nothing to do with delayed interest. 

Mr Speaker, those are the issues that I wanted to talk about.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Ng’onga (Kaputa): Mr Speaker, I thank you for according me this opportunity to briefly apply myself, on behalf of the people of Kaputa, to the Motion that was ably moved by Hon. Mwale and seconded by Hon. Zimba. I will not take up much of your time as I comment on the failures as highlighted in this report. 

Mr Speaker, your report has revealed that what transpired between 2009 and 2011, just before the general elections, should not repeat itself. The glaring irregularities that your report has brought out should be shameful, especially to those who were given the mandate by the people of Zambia to ensure that they fulfilled the wishes of the people to the best of their ability. 

Mr Chairperson, one gets tempted to refer to the period just before the general elections in 2011. 

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member, we are not yet in Committee of the Whole House. 

Mr Ng’onga: I beg your pardon, Sir. 

Mr Speaker, I basically want to amplify and comment on the issues that have been highlighted in your report to do with the failure by the RDA to adhere to regulations. 

The previous speaker indicated that there was political pressure which resulted in many of the officers failing to adhere to the regulations. I do not subscribe to that reason being that when employed to be a technocrat, someone who understands precisely what his or her job entails should advise the politicians on what should happen. 

Sir, during the election period, a lot of things tend to happen very quickly. It is the decisions which are made during this period which have left a number of roads incomplete. As we speak, there is a road that should have been completed by now, between Mumbwa and Landless Corner. There is also another one between Kasama and Kaputa via Mporokoso which should have been completed by now. Your report has highlighted these irregularities that arose. It is in view of this that I think those who were given the responsibility to govern should not have used the elections to haphazardly do Formula 1 roads in the hope of gaining votes. 

Mr Speaker, your report renders a lesson to the Patriotic Front (PF) Government. As a result of this, our President is ably ensuring that projects are done within the period that has been stipulated so as to avoid last minute expenditures and rushes to complete works to the satisfaction of the people. 

Mr Speaker, there are many roads that I would have liked to talk about. However, I think, I will end here. 

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Kalima (Kasenengwa): Mr Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity to add my voice to the Motion which is on the Floor of the House.  Firstly, I want to commend PAC for a job well done and the Auditor-General for continuing to do her job with prudence and to the point. 

Mr Speaker, I just want to briefly talk about accountability, which is key to the growth of our economy. Notably, the RDA has suffered because of the importance attached to it. Due to this importance, the President has decided to run it from State House to ensure that things are run accordingly, probably, because of the importance attached to roads. 

Mr Speaker, the failure to discipline the erring controlling officers of the RDA is really sad. This has continued because of lack of a board. A board is very cardinal for the supervision of the controlling officers at the RDA. 

Mr Speaker, I want to refer the House to page 50 of your report which talks about the time the hon. Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communications appeared before your Committee. One cardinal issue that came out was the constitution of the board. Right now, the board only has one member. The Chairperson of PAC lamented that he was very sad with the failure to discipline the controlling officers. This trend has continued even to date because of the failure to have a board in place. 

Mr Speaker, on page 50, the Chairperson of the Committee explained to the hon. Minister that he had been requested to appear before your Committee in order to help clarify matters relating to the non-existence of the board of directors at the RDA. The Chairperson further explained to the hon. Minister that it had been reported in the audit report that contrary to the Act, the RDA had been operating without a board since October, 2011. 

Sir, I refer you further to page 51 where your Committee is dismayed at the submission that there was a skeleton board in place as the RDA Act does not provide for such circumstances. Your Committee was, however, comforted by the hon. Minister’s assurance that the RDA Board would be in place by the 30th November, 2013. Your Committee resolved to wait for a progress report on the matter. 

Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister promised to have a board in place by 30th November, 2013. However, to date, we do not have a board at the RDA which is, indeed, very cardinal to the operations of the institution. 

Sir, in conclusion, I would like to urge the hon. Minister to honour his promise and ensure that controlling officers are supervised and that RDA is run accordingly, in the interest of the nation. 

Mr Speaker, I thank you. 

Mr Mwale: Mr Speaker, I thank you once again.

Sir, I am surprised that there is no hon. Minister ready to debate this matter or give clarity as to why there is no board at the RDA to date when the hon. Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication assured your Committee that a board would be in place by 30th November, 2013. There is no response from the Executive. Its Members are simply quiet. 

Sir, I would like to thank hon. Members for overwhelmingly supporting the report. 

I beg to move.   

Question put and agreed to. 

____

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the
Chair]

Vote 88 – (Muchinga Province – K 44,628,942), Vote 90 – (Lusaka Province – K 71,735,283), Vote 91– (Copperbelt Province – K 86,543,109), Vote 92 – (Central Province – K 71,183,670), Vote 93 – (Northern Province – K 88,641,594), Vote 94 – (Western Province – K 71,469,364), Vote 95 – (Eastern Province – K 78,182,138), Vote 96 – (Luapula Province – K 70,266,728), Vote 97 – (North-Western Province – K 72,498,449) and Vote 98 – (Southern Province – K 95,327,161).

(Consideration resumed)

Mr Mwanza (Solwezi West): Mr Chairperson, thank you for giving this opportunity to talk about the North-Western Province where I come from as an area Member of Parliament for Solwezi West. I will give an overview of things to do with the development of the province. I will also give out some details about how to get to North-Western Province. Then I will talk about the infrastructure which we are failing to develop as a result of the policies of the Patriotic Front (PF) Government. I will also raise some issues concerning our education policies and the creation of new universities vis-a-vis how it affects the North-Western Province.

Mr Chairperson, the North-Western Province is 126 km wide. It is a big province which borders the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) and Angola. Within the country, it borders the Central and Western provinces whose people are our traditional allies.

Mr Ndalamei: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza: Sir, as can be seen, we are quite networked. The province consists of eight districts which are Chavuma up north, Zambezi, Kabompo, Mufumbwe, Kasempa, Mwinilunga, Ikeleng’i and Solwezi which is the headquarters of the province. The people of the North-Western Province are very sad as I speak as a Member of Parliament from that area because out of the twelve Members of Parliament, only seven are doing their job because of the deeds of the PF Government. There is so much interference by the PF Government in election procedures which has resulted in the province being under-represented. Hon. Kakoma is no longer with us. Hon. Masumba, after being enticed, was left in the cold by the PF Government.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Mwanza: Hon. Mulusa, as I speak …

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, I stand on a very serious point of order. Is the hon. Member on the Floor in order to state that the Government has interfered with the operations of the courts of law to the extent that they have nullified certain seats?

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes.

Mr Kambwili: Sir, whatever we say on the Floor of the House has to be factual. We need to substantiate whatever allegations we make with evidence. Is Hon. Mwanza in order to mislead the House and the entire nation that there has been interference by the PF in the operations of the courts of law leading to some seats being nullified?

I need your serious ruling.

The Chairperson: Hon. Ministers can come and respond to such points when their turn to take the Floor comes. 

May the hon. Member debating continue.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza: Hon. Mulusa, as I speak, has had his seat nullified…

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Mwanza: … by the Supreme Court. This means that he cannot appeal.

Hon. Opposition Members: Corruption.

Mr Mwanza: Sir, this is unfortunate. It means that the three constituencies that I have talked about will remain without representation for some time. That is against the law.

Mr Chairperson, allow me, now, to talk briefly about the policy on education vis-a-vis the construction of university infrastructure. On this side of the House, we have argued that the North-Western, Northern, Southern and Eastern provinces currently have no universities standing. This is not how things should be. The policy of the PF Government, as alluded to by the President and hon. Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education is to create one university in each province. We expected that by the end of this year, that state of affairs could have materialised. Alas! We found out that, in Chongwe, very close to where we are meeting, there are two universities being built when the North-Western Province has none. In Muchinga, Chinsali in particular, two universities are being built while the Northern Province has no university.

Mr Mucheleka: Hear, hear! 

That is right.

Mr Mwanza: Sir, that is unfair. This is not good for Zambia. I think we are not sharing the cake equally and not following our own policies. This is not correct. I think we must review the way we are doing things.

Mr Chairperson, in the North-Western Province, we can attract heavy tourism because, as you know, the source of the Zambezi is in Mwinilunga. The people of the North-Western Province were not invited to the United Nations World Tourism Organisation (UNWTO) Conference which was recently held in Livingstone. I hear only Chief Ndungu was invited. The people that matter from our province did not attend the conference. This is unfortunate because the source of the Zambezi River is in Mwinilunga which is in the North-Western Province.

Lt. Gen. Rev. Shikapwasha: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza: Sir, the PF Government must recognise this fact.

Mr Chairperson, I now wish to talk about infrastructure development in the North-Western Province. I mentioned that this province shares borders with Angola and the DRC. It has a number of border posts that need attention. The infrastructure of the border posts which need attention include those found at Kipushi, Kabimba, Mwinilunga, Jimbe, Kamapanda and Kalipande. Even as we are discussing the Budget, the Government’s presence at these six border posts is not visible. The Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) which is responsible for the collection of revenue is not there and yet these points can easily earn the Zambian Government money. Since the PF Government and the one before it seem to have no interest in these border posts, they have remained not fully functional.

Sir, you will notice that a number of roads in the North-Western Province, such as the Solwezi/Chingola, Mutanda/Chavuma, which is now complete thanks to the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) Government,  …

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza: … Solwezi/Mwinilunga, T5, Mumbwa/Kasempa and Kaoma/Kasempa roads …

Mr Antonio: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza: … are in a deplorable state. Since I last travelled on the Lukulu/Watopa Road in 1978, I am not sure of the state in which it is. However, I suspect that it is in a very bad condition. What is worrying is that feasibility studies have not been done on the roads which I have referred to since they are in the North-Western Province. As far as the PF Government is concerned, none of these roads are important. 

Mr Chairperson, the Solwezi/Chingola Road is an economic road. The wealth of the North-Western Province passes through this road to go and develop other areas. This includes the areas up north, which are receiving a lot of attention. Three days ago, an hon. Member of Parliament said that it is not only Chinsali and Mpika which should be developed. These two districts seem to be receiving special attention. This is because that is the region where the President comes from. This raises issues to do with favouratism. Why are the projects in these areas receiving urgent attention and not the Solwezi/Chingola Road in the North-Western Province? The Government must answer such questions.

Mr Livune: That is right!

Mr Mwanza: Sir, this is a very serious matter that requires the Government’s attention.

Mr Chairperson, the last point I wish to talk about has to do with inclusiveness in the running of the Government. The PF Government does not use an inclusive approach. Its development approach is tilted towards one area.

Hon. Opposition Members: Shame!

Mr Mwanza: Sir, that is not the correct way of doing things. In fact, this area is renowned for nurturing the heroes of our democracy like Hon. Chikwanda, who were very instrumental in ensuring that the motto, “One Zambia, One Nation” became a part of our culture. 

Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Mwanza: Sir, since independence, the North-Western Province has always had a minister coming from the Lunda, Kaonde and Luvale lands.

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza: Sir, unfortunately, today, we do not have any hon. Minister. Even the young hon. Members who the PF Government enticed have been thrown out.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza: Sir, the PF Government has thrown them out.

Mr Livune: Jean Kapata, zero!

Mr Mwanza: Sir, Hon. Jean Kapata is a Lusaka person. We do not consider her as being a North-Westerner.

Laughter

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Mwanza: Sir, North-Westerners …

The Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Mwanza, please, do not discuss individuals. Just advance arguments that do not involve other people.

Mr Mwanza: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for your guidance. I was trying to advance a point that the North-Western Province is not being developed at the same pace as other parts of the country. This is very unfortunate. I think corrections must be made.

Mr Livune: Shame!

Mr Mwanza: Sir, the province also has airstrips. Recently, you may recall that, in Kasempa, three or four hon. Ministers in the MMD Government nearly died. However, nothing has been done because of …

Mr Livune: The PF!

Mr Mwanza: Well, no, it was not the PF then.

Laughter{mospagebreak}

Mr Mwanza: Mr Chairperson, improvements must be made in many areas. Why is it that projects in Muchinga, particularly in Chinsali and Mpika, receive urgent attention as oppossed to those in other areas?

Mr Livune: Shame!

Mr Mwanza: Sir, recently, we saw that the release of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) allocations …

Mr Ng’onga: Question!

Mr Mwanza: … was tilted towards the PF constituencies. This decision by the PF Government to release the CDF in a discriminatory manner is serious and criminal. It can even result in a disaster.

Mr Chairperson, the PF Government must state strongly that this will never happen again. The hon. Minister involved must be dealt with. 

Mr Livune: Ba Kabanshi!

Mr Mwanza: Sir, unfortunately, the PF is not coming out in the open to talk about this problem. We must ensure that we share the national cake equally. The issue of saying that we did not vote for them should not arise. Such issues are not in our Constitution. Why do the members of the PF say that they are not going to develop areas where they are not voted for when campaigning during by-elections?

Mr Livune: It is not even their money.

Mr Mwanza: Sir, it is not their money which is used to run the Government. 

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza: Sir, it is money contributed to the Treasury by the people of Chavuma and other parts of the country such as my constituency. Tax does not only come from Muchinga.

Interruptions

Mr Mwanza: Mr Chairperson, the legacy which the PF is going to leave behind will be a sad one.

Mr Livune: Shame!

Mr Mwanza: Sir, I do not know whether it is a legacy that relates to bufi meaning boza or lies. As a party in the Government, it is important that it works to leave behind a good legacy.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo (Mumbwa): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate on the Central Province Vote. 

Mr Chairperson, let me start by saying that we all know where the Central Province is. It is a gateway to the north, south, east and west. It borders the DRC, the Eastern, Muchinga, Lusaka, Southern, Western and North-Western provinces. It is a vast province. The mainstay of the economy in the Central Province is agriculture.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order, on my left.

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo: Sir, we saw that in the 2011/2012 Season, the production of our main crop, which is maize, declined to only 492,000 metric tonnes from 534,000 metric tonnes. Of course, there were reasons advanced for this decline. One of the reasons was floods in some areas like in my district as well as the army worms. A major component which contributed to this decline was poor management. Eighty per cent of our maize is produced by small-holder farmers, and if they are not supported by being given inputs on time, they do not have the flexibility that commercial farmers have when a catastrophe, like what befell us, occurs. We had hoped that the current Government would have learnt lessons, but alas, in terms of input distribution, they seem not to have. We are likely to have a similar decline in the production of our staple food. How, then, can we alleviate or reduce poverty because that is the only way of improving people’s livelihoods?

Mr Chairperson, the issue of concern in the Central Province, obviously, pertains to agriculture and livestock. Having spoken about maize, I would like to urge the Government to re-look at the cattle re-stocking exercise. It would be much more efficient if the Government utilised artificial insemination or developed breeding centres, …

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo: …than what is currently prevailing. The farmers are given these animals with the hope that they will conceive and multiply in number. However, that takes a longer time because management is an issue. I hope my colleagues will take note of that advice.

Sir, we are concerned about the floods which take place in some parts of the country like Luano area where tourism is being promoted since agriculture is not the mainstay there. Every year, we send distress messages regarding the need for relief food in that area. To date, I am not quite sure if anything has gone there. Now, if there is no relief maize sent there, the people in that area will be encouraged to start poaching as a source of revenue. It is, therefore, important that the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU) considers sending relief food urgently to Luano. This also applies to those areas which experienced floods like Mumbwa District.

Mr Chairperson, let me now talk about the Mulungushi Textiles. We had hoped that the shareholders issue would have been dealt with by now because Mumbwa, Kabwe, Chibombo and Chisamba are all areas that produce a lot of cotton. If the Mulungushi Textiles was operational, it would provide the much-needed jobs. Currently, Kabwe is hard-hit with unemployment because of this important industry which is moribund. In Kabwe particularly, there is need to promote other kinds of manufacturing companies like General Pharmaceuticals, which is an indigenous company that produces intravenous fluids and other drugs. These need support.

Sir, let me now come to road infrastructure. A lot has been said regarding the development of road infrastructure. We have witnessed the attempts at upgrading township roads. However, this has not gone smoothly as we can see from the delays associated with the upgrading of township roads in Kabwe.

Sir, just this afternoon, we were looking at the Auditor-General’s report which also talked the works on the Landless Corner/Mumbwa Road. I sincerely hope that this road will be worked on properly. I also hope that the dilapidated Mumbwa/Kasempa Road will be looked at because it will add to the overall economic development of our country since it is a shorter route from the south to the North-Western Province. There is need for a bridge to be constructed at Ngabwe on the Mukobeko/Ngabwe Road to Kasempa. The newly opened district of Ngabwe will only make sense if this road infrastructure is worked on and a bridge is constructed on the Kafue River.

Mr Chairperson, there are many other road infrastructure projects which need attention in order to ease the movement of goods and people to various markets and service areas like hospitals. We note that there are feasibility studies that are being carried out. However, I am looking forward to seeing the phases upgraded so that we can see real work being done.

Sir, the Central Province harbours the larger part of the Kafue National Park which, if developed, could add to the revenue that the hon. Minister of Finance so much needs. We have noted with concern, and having engaged the Ministry of Tourism and Art and His Honour the Vice-President, the invasion of the Game Management Area (GMA) Number 14. This matter was taken to court and the encroachers lost the case. It is now just a matter of the Zambia Wildlife Authority (ZAWA) removing the illegal settlers from the GMA. One arm of Government looked at the issues relating to the encroachment and ruled that those people had to move out because there are alternative places where they can be resettled. These people were supposed to have left on 30th November, 2013, but are still there. Perhaps, we must ask our local chiefs to ask the local people to go and settle there. Then, we can surely forget about the Kafue National Park the way we have known it.

Mr Chairperson, we have noticed, with concern, that although there is school infrastructure in this area, the upgrading of schools from basic to secondary schools has caused havoc. There was no preparation for this upgrade. I shudder to think what sort of graduates we shall have in the next five years. There is so much instability. This is an issue that the hon. Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education must look into. Distances that young people in primary school have to travel have increased. There is an urgent need to quickly attend to the infrastructure which is being built. When one compares buildings or infrastructure being constructed by the Chinese and our local contractors, it is as if these are being constructed in two different countries. When one interrogates most of these contractors, their answer or response is that they are not being funded. Now, that is something that is of concern because it is within the ability of the Ministry of Finance to find the money as planned for. So, I am appealing to the Government to fund these projects in the Central Province as well as the whole country so that people in these communities can access the needed services.

Mr Chairperson, on the issue of hospital infrastructure, I want to stress that I cannot see any urgency to build shelters for patients’ relatives. There are no shelters at health centres in Mumbwa, Kapiri-Mposhi, Mkushi, Serenje and Chibombo. This is a serious omission because these health facilities cater for patients that travel long distances. I cannot see the provision for that in the budget for Central Province. Although some good health structures have been built, patients’ relatives are sleeping in corridors at the moment. This promotes the spread of malaria and other diseases. So, my timely advice is for the Government to look into that matter.

Mr Chairperson, as regards governance issues, I note that there have been pronouncements that development will only take place in areas where there are PF hon. Members of Parliament. Surely, that is contrary to what should be going on. We have seen a concentration of development, as has been stated, in two districts in the Central Province. However, I would like to say that if one is attempting to propose a girl, what you do is not be shy, but to take goodies to her. One day, you take a piece of chocolate and another day a nice drink. This is what I would have expected the PF to do in those areas that it has not won any parliamentary seats. It has to be extra good so that the people in these areas are attracted to the Ruling Party. However, if the ladies and gentlemen on your right do not do that, they will not be able to capture the affection of the lovely moyes in those areas.

Sir, I would like to advise the Government to look into the issue of infrastructure development. The Acting Leader of Government Business in the House is my friend. I am hoping that since he is a man of action, he will see to it that police posts which have not been completed are attended to because crime is surely not something anybody should be happy with. Our people must live in secure environments.

Mr Chairperson, lastly, I would like to congratulate our officials and residents of Kaputula Ward in the heart of Kabwe. The by-election in this ward was won by the MMD.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo: I think that is just the beginning of better things to come for the MMD. It is a good and friendly warning to the PF. We shall continue to win elections if they are conducted on a level playing field.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Mr Chairperson, I want to appreciate your recognition in giving me this opportunity to make a contribution. I am adding a word of support to the Vote for the Western Province. Before I go any further, I want to congratulate my son, Hon. Lufuma …

Interruptions 

The Chairperson: Order!

I was about to say ‘order on my extreme right’, only to realise that it is Hon. Mucheleka who has moved from the left to the right. Can we have order, Hon. Mucheleka.

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, I was saying that I want to congratulate my son, Hon. Lufuma, for winning the petition against his election just this afternoon.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyutu: He has added value to …

The Chairperson: Order!

I am not sure he is your son because he looks older than you.

Laughter

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, when there were disturbances, the Government very quickly sent troops to the Western Province. Are we going to eat those soldiers?

Laughter

Mr Miyutu: Sir, we will not. Are we going to drive those soldiers? Of course, we will not. Will our pupils be taught by those soldiers? The answer is no. Therefore, the Government must know what the people in the Western Province want. For what would we use soldiers in 2013 when world wars are long gone? This is not the time for soldiers. This time we want peace, unity and development instead of soldiers. In other words, we want the development of roads such as the Katunda Road. The hon. Member for Lukulu West takes twelve hours to move from his constituency to Lusaka. We have no use for soldiers. All we want is development.

Mr Chairperson, I have a brief extract from the Yellow Book. The grand total which has been allocated to the Western Province is about K71 million. We have sixteen districts in the province.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Please, order on my extreme right!

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, all these districts are highly impoverished. The fortunate ones are only Senanga, Kaoma and Sesheke, which have a few tarred roads. However, the people in all the other thirteen districts do not even know what a bituminous road looks like. This means that the movement in the Western Province is very hard and, therefore, even development becomes very difficult. So, that is what the Government must focus on.

Hon. UPND Members: Not soldiers.

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, I have said before, on the Floor of this House, that people who occupy public office should not put their personal interests first. We have the Road Development Agency (RDA) and Rural Roads Unit (RRU). From my own analysis, the RDA is meant for cities while the RRU is for rural areas. 

Sir, however, the RRU is not heavily equipped. The equipment for this unit is almost obsolete. In the Western Province, it is just parked in Mongu. So, the roads our colleagues across claim to be making are just on paper. The roads are never done because the RRU has no equipment. The feeder roads they talk about are never done. Even the famous Namushakendi/Mulobezi (Lihule) Road which stretches across the Western Province has never been done. 

Hon. UPND Members: Lihule Road.

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, that is why I was urging the Government to take away the troops deployed in the Western Province and instead construct our roads. Why was the Government quick to take soldiers there, but is slow to develop our roads? We have a number of incomplete structures which were started by the former Government in various sectors. 

Mr Chairperson, there are clinics that are still incomplete. When will they be completed? People have to walk many kilometres in order to access health services. In addition, many hospitals do not have ambulances. We have to walk. I do not know how I would describe the manner in which we carry our patients in the Western Province. I have not seen this style anywhere else. We use a stick on which we tie a cloth on the two ends of the stick and then strong men carry the stick.

Hon. UPND Member: Chipoya.

Mr Miyutu: Sir, locally we call it Chipoya. Two strong men carry the patient to the hospital or clinic. Leaving the clinics incomplete will not add any value to the Western Province. Instead, it is a lot of disservice to us. It seems the Governments will always concentrate on the already improved areas leaving us to remain behind in the west. Maybe, the Government needs to be reminded …

Interruptions    

The Chairperson: Order, both on my right and left! Consult a little more quietly.

Mr Miyutu: … that west only means the direction or position where the sun sets.

Interruptions 

The Chairperson: Order, on my right. I am just saying that consult a little more quietly, but you are shouting.

Mr Mushanga: It is Mucheleka! 

The Chairperson: Continue, Hon. Miyutu.

Mr Miyutu: Sir, west does not mean bad. It is just a direction or position which is the opposite of east where the wise men came from, according to the Bible. So, when we are on the western side, it does not mean that we should be neglected. You have heard some hon. Members describe the Northern Province as Phase II. Now, for the Western Province, I do not know which phase it is. Maybe, it is Phase III or IV. 

Hon. UPND Member: Akuna.

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, there are a lot of answers here that refer to the need for feasibility studies. For any question that you ask, the response is that of feasibility studies. Why do you need these feasibility studies where a human being is living? Which other factor is more than a human being? Are Governments not set up to serve human beings? Are they set up to serve nature? They are set up to serve mankind. So, what are the feasibility studies all about? As long as you know that there are people living in a certain place, take a road and electricity there. If we are going to wait for feasibility studies, development will not reach the rural areas. What the Government must know is that the more remote an area, the harder it is to reach it …

Mr Muntanga: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyutu: … and the more we shall cry. If the Government wants us to keep quiet, let it take what we want to those areas.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Livune: That is right.

Mr Miyutu: Sir, the electrification of Mangango should be completed. You know, I do not believe in writing on paper and you do not release the funds. What kills a person is the lack of oxygen.

Mr Livune: That is right!

Mr Miyutu: Sir, when oxygen does not reach the brain, automatically the person dies.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mufalali: Tell them!

Mr Miyutu: You will look at the corpses. That is just a corpse. It is a dead person because the brain has stopped functioning. So, when the Government does not release funds, what else does it want? Does it want the westerners to produce their own money? The release of money is very important. Do not just please us by saying you will work on something when funds are available. That should also apply to Lusaka. However, when I walk around here, I do not even realise that there is a shortage of funds for projects in Lusaka. 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyutu: Sir, are you sure that there were feasibility studies which were carried out before the traffic lights at the junction of Nangwenya Road and Thabo Mbeki were put up? If the studies were done, how would you describe them? I would describe them as a waste of money and time. That is the same money and time that the Government must utilise. That is why I always say that those who are going to school must utilise the knowledge which they get from there.

Mr Livune: That is right

Mr Miyutu: Sir, these feasibility studies must yield fruits. 

Mr Chairperson, allow me to talk about the electrification of the rural areas. We are talking of deforestation. Deforestation is a result of the cutting down of trees. For some people who do not use charcoal and firewood, they might think that the people in rural areas are doing it deliberately. How would you produce the energy to cook any food without charcoal or firewood? Who can produce firewood in a pocket? Who can manufacture firewood? Is there any other method of producing firewood? If there is, let that technology go to the Western Province and other rural areas so that we do not cut down trees. So, to cure deforestation is to provide the people with this energy. Let hydro-power reach the rural areas and let it be accessible. If you will be taking the power to the villages which will be unaffordable, it will not be accessible and we shall go back to finishing up the forests.

Sir, this is the charcoal that is being supplied everywhere. If you go to Garden Compound, you will find heaps of charcoal there. If you go to other compounds, you will also find charcoal. They are using that charcoal to produce energy, meaning that even the people in urban areas are not able to buy electricity. So, the Government must realise that all the people need to enjoy the fruits of electricity. 

Sir, you have heard that the people who reside where this power comes from do not even use it. You can imagine.  They do not use it. How fair is that? So, those in the Government must realise that they are there to serve mankind. So, they must ensure the completion of hospitals, clinics and all the stalled works. There is also a lack of roads. There are some minor works which are taking place in the central part of Mongu District. I call them minor works because only some kilometres of tarmac road are being done. What about the other fifteen districts in the province? We want all the districts to have bituminous roads. 

With these words, I thank you.

Ms Imenda (Luena): Mr Chairperson, I stand to speak on behalf of the people of the Western Province. From the outset, I want to mention that, currently, the Western Province is the largest province in terms of size and yet is the poorest because of being neglected by successive Governments.

Mr Chairperson, as regards road infrastructure, first of all, the Government is boasting about the Mongu/Kalabo Road which has been talked about several times. They are boasting, also, of the construction of the Senanga/Sesheke Road. While I appreciate that this is a step in the right direction …

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Please, we want to hear from only one person who is debating.

You may continue, Hon. Imenda.

Ms Imenda: Mr Chairperson, very little is being done because they are just continuing from where the MMD left. I want the Government to also start its own projects in the Western Province. As was said by my friend on the other side, when responding to a question regarding the Barotseland Agreement, the people of the Western Province want their area to be developed.

Mr Chairperson, in terms of road infrastructure, in his Speech during the Official Opening of the Eleventh National Assembly, President Sata said that certain roads were going to be constructed. He made a commitment that districts would be connected through the construction of certain roads. We expect Kaoma District to be connected to Lukulu District through the Katunda/Lukulu Road as well as Senanga and Kalabo through the Kalongola/Kalabo Road. We expect Kaoma to be connected to Sesheke through a road from Luampa, Machile and Mulobezi via Mwandi to Sesheke. The different districts in the province need to be connected. Of course, I do not want to forget about the fact that Kalabo needs to be connected to Sikongo and Lukulu. Mongu needs to be connected to Lukulu via the new Limulunga District. 

Mr Chairperson, there is also need for feeder roads …

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

We are not listening.

You may continue, Hon. Imenda.

Ms Imenda: Mr Chairperson, there is also need for feeder roads and bridges. The Namushakende to Nakanya Road needs to be constructed.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Imenda: Mr Chairperson, the Miulwe to Nangula Road also needs to be worked on. I have already mentioned the road from Kalabo to Sikongo Road. The famous Mahule Road …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Imenda: … which passes through Kalabo, Sikongo, Shang’ombo all the way to Sesheke and Livingstone should be constructed. The Kaunga/Lueti Bridge in Nalolo Constituency needs to be looked at because people are suffering. The Nangandu and Litulandopu bridges are some of the small crossing points in Limulunga District that need to be worked on. The Lububa/Mwito Kabasonyi Bridge needs to be constructed. The Mayukwayukwa/Tukaba Hill Bridge needs to be worked on.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Let there be order on my left.

Ms Imenda: Mr Chairperson, from Sikongo, Kalabo and Nalolo, there is a road leading to Malondo, Tuwa, Lulangunyi via Mabuwa Lueti and Mambolomoka to Shang’ombo which needs to be looked at. The construction of this road stopped after the RDA cancelled that contract for the works. I do not know why that was done. 

Mr Chairperson, you heard the lamentations about Lukulu West by my young brother from there. I went to Lukulu West when I was a child. To get to Lukulu, I had to cross the Zambezi River by canoe. I also had to pass through big forests and difficult terrain. I reached Kashiji River which I had to cross through all sorts of means. There is no crossing point. I passed through another big forest and reached Lungwebungu River. There is no substitute for this route. Therefore, the Government just has to do something about the state of affairs.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Imenda: Mr Chairperson, we should utilise the bailey bridges that were initially meant for the Mongu/Kalabo Road. There is no need to transport those bailey bridges to other provinces. If we do not utilise them, we, in accounts, would refer the money which was spent on them as sunk costs. We should learn to cut our losses. All we just need to do is to put a kadionko, meaning a little something extra so that the bailey bridges can be used in other parts of the province.

Mr Chairperson, let me now talk about the water problems in the Western Province. It is a well-known fact that the province receives a lot of rain. Therefore, there is need to build canals and dams there. I think that I mentioned this point when I talked about transport. There is really need for the Government to be very serious about the building of canals in the Western Province. Obviously, a substantial amount of water needs to be managed because there is already a lot of it in the Western Province at certain times of the year. This water needs to be managed for both agriculture and transport purposes. There is need for the putting in place of canals, weirs and dams. I do not know whether people know what weirs are. I think Hon. Mooya, the engineer, can explain what they are better. If I start explaining what they are, I will run out of time because I have many development issues that I want this Government to address. 

Mr Chairperson, currently, there are only two dredgers in Mongu, which were bought by the MMD Government. If you critically looked at the terrain in the Western Province and the type of drainage system that is there, I am sure you would agree with me that the area needs more dredgers. In fact, we need dredgers in the following districts: Mongu, Limulunga, Lukulu, Senanga, Kaoma and Sioma. 

Mr Chairperson, the Western Province is the largest province and yet also the poorest. There is need for affirmative action on this score. If somebody is lagging behind, affirmative action will accelerate their speed so that they catch up. I cannot manage to compare the allocations for all the provinces to that of the Western Province because I will run out of time. However, let me just pick on the Northern Province. I am aware that the reason the Northern Province was divided into two was to give it a double portion from the Budget. Let me give you some figures. Muchinga Province has been given K44.6 million. The Northern Province has been given 88.6 million. The total of these two provinces is K133.2 million. However, the Western Province has been given only a miserable K71.4 billion. Is that delivering development equitably? Where is this equity? We need affirmative action in order for the Western Province to catch up with the rest of the provinces in the country. Therefore, more resources need to be pumped in the development of the Western Province.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Imenda: Mr Chairperson, they keep giving the Western Province insufficient resources. If you are driving a car and you want to catch up with another one, and then you keep reducing your speed when the other car is already 50 km away, will you ever catch up with it? No, you will not. All they want to do is to declare the Bulozi Plain a national heritage site …

Mr Livune: Mawe!

Ms Imenda: … thereby condemning it to perpetual poverty and under-development.

Hon. Opposition Members: Oh, no!

Ms Imenda: Mr Chairperson, that is not fair. In fact, the famous picturesque and mouth- watering Kuomboka Ceremony has been named as a national heritage site.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chairperson, there are other things that could have been named as heritage sites. The famous Maoma Drums are unique. I have not seen them anywhere. That is an example of what is supposed to be named a national heritage site. They should approach matters like they did when looking at issues to do with the Likumbi Lyamize. They should have just got something to name as a heritage site in the Western Province and not the whole place. Do they want us to remain poor and under-developed forever and ever? That is unfair. Why is the Western Province treated like this? If they do not know, we also contributed to the Independence…

Mr Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the
Chair]

Ms Imenda: Mr Chairperson, before the break, I was saying that the Western Province also contributed to Independence. I would like to inform those who do not know, that the Western Province contributed human resource to the liberation struggle. Out of the 100 graduates that Zambia was boasting about after Independence, over 50 per cent of them came from the Western Province.

Interruptions 

Ms Imenda: Sir, of course, that is human resource. I must mention, here, that even my late aunt was one of the 100 graduates. I am very proud of that.

Mr Chairperson, on the other hand, the people who were employed as cane cutters came from the Western Province. They kept Tate and Lyle, which is now known as the Nakambala Sugar Estate, going. 

Sir, while I still have a bit of time, let me tell you a story about the cane cutters from Western Province. After Independence, the first hon. Minister of Agriculture was Mr Andrew Mutemba from the Northern Province. He accused the then general manager of Tate and Lyle of practising tribalism because he only had workers from the Western Province. The general manager was a muzungu. Thus, I do not even know why he was accused of being tribal. The muzungu tried to explain, but the hon. Minister was not interested in the explanation. So, the muzungu told the hon. Minister to recruit people from wherever he wanted. He recruited people from the Northern Province. The Central African Road Services buses were used to ferry people from the Northern Province to the Nakambala Sugar Estates. Now, at Nakambala Sugar Estates, they used mukwazo to get their work done. I do not know what mukwazo means in English. Someone can help me.

Interruptions 

Hon. Government Member: Mukwazo is English!

Interruptions 

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Ms Imenda: Sir, they were being given mukwazo, whereby if they finished their portion of work, they knocked off. The cane cutters from the Western Province did their work well because they were very serious, powerful and strong people. In no time, say by 1100 hours, they would finish their portion and then go to have a beer or other cold drinks. The cane cutters from the Northern Province would go up to 1700 hours without finishing the work. It was the trend every day. They then started complaining, “awe inchito iyi yalikosa sana, teti tulebomba kwati tuli ma horse.”

The Deputy Chairperson: What does that mean?

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter 

Ms Imenda: It means, “This job is too hard. We cannot be working like horses.” 

Sir, the cane cutters from the Northern Province started calling for the creation of a union. There was industrial unrest until the general manager called the hon. Minister. The hon. Minister told the general manager to increase the price of sugar so that more people could be employed for the same amount of work done. However, if there is anything that the United National Independence Party (UNIP) did not want was the unnecessary increase in prices. So, the same hon. Minister told the general manager to fire those who could not work. That is how, for a long time, the people from the Western Province had been going to work at the Nakambala Sugar Estates. It is only now because of the non-availability of jobs that people who made Nakambala Sugar Estates into what it is, are being abandoned. They are recruiting anybody. No wonder the price of sugar keeps going up.

Mr Chairperson, with those few words, I thank you.

Interruptions 

Mr Ng’onga (Kaputa): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for according me the opportunity to support the Vote for the Northern Province.

Sir, I stand here as a representative from the Northern Province. I can proudly state that there are a number of developmental programmes that have taken place in the Northern Province since the PF Government came to power. 

Interruptions

Mr Ng’onga: Sir, just give me a few minutes to highlight what has taken place in the Northern Province.

Sir, you heard the negatives debates from some hon. Members who spoke earlier. They seemed to be suggesting that nothing was happening in the Northern Province.

Mr Chairperson, let me start with the famous road infrastructure following the President’s pronouncement that from 2011 to 2016, he would link this country, and that the Northern Province would not be the same again. The consultants are already carrying out feasibility studies for the road that will start from Luwingu to Kawambwa. These studies will be completed very soon. We have waited for many years for the Mporokoso/Nsama/Kaputa Road. In fact, the previous Government did not even pay any attention to this road. The consultants have already been to Kaputa. For the first time, the people of Kaputa saw consultants talking to them about that road.

Prof. Lungwangwa: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Prof. Lungwangwa: Mr Chairperson, I thank you very much for affording me this rare opportunity to raise a point of order. I would like to apologise to my colleague, Hon. Ng’onga, for disturbing his flow of thought.

Sir, today is an extremely important day world over. The world is saying farewell to a political icon.

The Deputy Chairperson: What is your point of order?

Prof. Lungwangwa: Mr Chairperson, is the Leader of Government Business in the House in order to sit there quietly listening to us without informing the nation who is representing our country at that extremely important occasion in the history of the world? This point of order is extremely important because in Mandela, may his soul rest in peace, is an example of a humane icon …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

You have made your point order and the serious ruling is that the country is being represented.

Hon. Opposition Members: By who?

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Please, proceed Hon. Ng’onga.

Mr Ng’onga: Mr Chairperson, before the point of order was raised, I was talking about the famous Mporokoso/Nsama/Kaputa Road. This road was not in the vocabulary of the MMD. We do not know what happened during their time. We do not know whether they considered the people of the Northern Province as not being important. However, we are very thankful to the President for prioritising the works on this road because it will link Kaputa through the Kaputa/Chienge Road, which goes up to Nchelenge and also the Mporokoso/Nsama/Kaputa Road.

Sir, even as I speak, there is a road between Luwingu and Chilubi via Nsombo and Luwingu and Samfya via Kasaba. These roads are all in the work plan. We are just from debating a report by the Auditor-General which talked about a period when roads were worked on without a plan.

Laughter 
 
Mr Ng’onga: Sir, when 2011 came, without proper plans, the MMD Government started looking for contractors. However, this time, things are being done differently. We want studies to be conducted thoroughly before a contractor is picked. That way, a contractor will be given enough time and money to complete the works. 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ng’onga: Mr Chairperson, as I speak, the works on the Kasama/Mbesuma Road have been completed. It is a fantastic road. All we can do now is urge the Government to ensure that the contractor puts up a bridge which will connect the people of Kasama to Isoka and Chinsali before leaving the area.  

Sir, I was in Kasama in October. The streets there are completely different from how they were before 2011. Almost all the streets in Kasama are bituminous. This is very exciting.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ng’onga: Sir, therefore, one cannot stand up and say that there is nothing happening in the Northern Province. That is a lie. When developing infrastructure, a plan must be put in place so that people can be shown the direction in which they are going. I thank the leadership of His Excellency, Mr Michael Chilufya Sata, for having focused on road infrastructure so that we can all enjoy the benefits of our developing country. 

Mr Chairperson, allow me to briefly talk about the Kasama Airport which we can call the Kasama International Airport Runway. In 2009, there was a budget that was allocated to this particular infrastructure and, by 2011, the money, which is the equivalent of K20 million now, had never been seen. We do not even know whether it went into people’s pockets or not. I urge the hon. Minister of the Northern Province and his officers to ensure that we investigate that issue and bring to book those who used this money for personal gain. During the same period, there were funds that were released for works on the Kasaba Bay International Airport. I, again, would want to urge the hon. Minister to find out exactly where that money that was released to complete the works on that particular project went. If there is any reason that the project cannot be completed, we must be clearly explained to. The Kasaba Bay International Airport will open up the Northern Tourism Circuit. There is tourism in the Northern Province along Lake Tanganyika. Therefore, we must have good infrastructure in the area.

Mr Chairperson, allow me to look at agriculture in the Northern Province. The Northern Province has a conducive environment for agriculture. Of late, we have been talking about the rains not being sufficient in the southern part of the country. In contrast, I wish to state that the Northern Province has had adequate amounts of rain up to now. This is an area where almost anything can be produced. If you were to talk about rice production, Kaputa and Chambeshi in Mungwi can be ranked as some of the most productive areas. The biggest coffee plantation is in the Northern Province. The Northern Province also produces sugarcanes. All we need, as a province, is to have deliberate programmes that make this area a manufacturing hub. I am pretty sure that even with droughts affecting other parts of the country, the Northern Province would be able to feed the people.

Sir, let me now talk about the fisheries industry which has been neglected for some time in this province. I know that there is some money which has been allocated in the Budget for Luapula and the Western Province for the fisheries industry. The Northern Province also has great lakes and waters. We have the Lake Tanganyika and Lake Mweru Wantipa in Kaputa. We also have the Chambeshi River which is big and has many tributaries along it. We need to also allocate money to the Northern Province for the fisheries industry so that it can become the basket that feeds this country. I do not subscribe to the belief that we should continue importing fish from China because we have enough water bodies in the Northern Province. All we need are funds to be allocated to this sector in the province. 

Mr Chairperson, before I leave the subject of water, I wish to state that Lake Mweru Wantipa in Kaputa should be given enough financing to open up what are known as the Kalungwishi Mofwe Lagoons because this is a lake that can sustain the people of the Northern Province. Those that were there in the 1970s and 1980s would remember that the Kampinda fish used to come from that area. What we are crying for are resources to help us open the Kalungwishi Mofwe Lagoons. Hon. Deputy Minister for the Northern Province, this project should be prioritised and then followed up by the development of road infrastructure for the people of Kaputa and Nsama. That way, we shall raise the status of the people of Nsama and Kaputa to levels that they have never been before. If we do not do anything along those lines, this lake will dry up and the people will have no source of water, income and food for their children. 

Mr Chairperson, let me now talk about issues to do with the Department of Water Affairs. When I looked into the budget for the Northern Province, I noticed that the Department of Water Affairs has not been given due consideration. The construction and rehabilitation of boreholes is one of the major assignments of the department. In the Northern Province, the department needs an additional borehole drilling machine. Come 2016, this department will be very handy. It will help the districts to get the required boreholes. As we look at our budget lines, we should consider putting more money in the allocation for the Department of Water Affairs so that we can be ready for 2016.

Sir, we know that the RRU in Kasama has had no equipment to do the roads in all the districts. However, given the proper funding, this department can do wonders for the Northern Province. I hope that in our budget for this year, adequate funds have been allocated to the RRU so that it can do works in all the districts of the Northern Province. Kasama is not the Northern Province. The Northern Province is made up of nine districts which all deserve an equal share of the resources for the province. 

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! 

The Deputy Chairperson: We are looking for hon. Members from the Eastern Province. None of them has debated. I am wondering whether there are any hon. Members of Parliament from the Eastern Province in the House.

Interruptions 

Mr Mushanga (Bwacha): Mr Chairperson, I am an hon. Member of Parliament from the Central Province, but I come from the Eastern Province. Since the hon. Members of Parliament from the Eastern Province are not in the House, I will speak on their behalf as well as I debate.

Hon. Government Members: hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! You are speaking as hon. Member of Parliament from Central Province. You are the last hon. Member of Parliament to contribute from the Central Province.

Laughter

Mr Mushanga: Mr Chairperson, firstly, allow me to thank my fellow hon. Members of Parliament from the Central Province who have debated. These are Hon. Kapyanga, Member of Parliament for Kabwe Central and Hon. Brig-Gen. Chituwo, Member of Parliament for Mumbwa. Most of the issues have been highlighted by…

Hon. Back-Benchers interrupted. 

Mr Mushanga: Mr Chairperson, these people are disturbing me.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Please, allow the hon. Member of Parliament to debate. 

Mr Mushanga: Mr Chairperson, for the information of the hon. Members of Parliament who do not come from the Central Province, before the creation of the new districts, we had only six districts namely, Serenje, Mkushi, Kapiri-Mposhi, Kabwe, Chibombo and Mumbwa. Allow me to take this opportunity to thank His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia for giving the people of the Central Province additional districts. The new districts are Ngabwe, Chitambo, Chisamba and Luano.

Mr Ng’onga: Hear, hear!

Mr Mushanga: Mr Chairperson, I have been listening to the debate of the hon. Members of Parliament from different provinces. It is the general feeling that most of the provinces are underdeveloped. The PF Government, under the leadership of His Excellency the President, Mr Michael Chilufya Sata, is putting in place measures to rectify the situation. There is an issue of continuity. Even in other countries, I have noticed that if governments change, the aspect of continuity is very important. This is what we saw in 1991 when the Government changed from the United National Independence Party (UNIP) to the MMD. This is exactly what we are seeing. After the change of government from the MMD to the PF, there was need for the existing projects to continue. As the PF, we just need to complete the projects. 

Sir, I will talk about the projects in Kabwe. The PF Government is responding to the campaign promises which were made to the people of the Central Province, specifically in Kabwe in 2011. In Kabwe, we have schools which were constructed thirty to forty years ago. There were just classrooms without houses for members of staff or toilets for both members of staff and pupils. As I am debating on the Floor of the House this evening, there are schools in Makupu and Chililalila areas in Kabwe where the Government is currently constructing teachers’ houses and pit latrines. This Government is responding to the campaign promises it made in 2011. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! 

Mr Mushanga: Sir, there is no hon. Member of Parliament in this House who does not know where Mukobeko Maximum Prison is located. Next year, in 2014, Zambia will be celebrating fifty years of independence. Even after fifty years of independence, Mukobeko Township has never had a clinic. As I speak, because of the good and positive policies of the PF Government, right now, there is a modern clinic that is being constructed in Mukobeko Township.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mushanga: Mr Speaker, this is simply because the leadership that we have is the leadership that the people of the Central Province wanted in 2011. In Makululu, which is the second largest shanty compound in the southern part of Africa, the people there have had a very small clinic which is now being upgraded. The clinic will have maternity facilities and anti-retroviral therapy (ART) facilities. This is an indication that we have a working and listening Government. At least, even the people of the Central Province, specifically Kabwe, have started benefiting from the country’s resources. Just for the sake of it, some people may argue that the people of the Central Province are still lagging behind when it comes to development when that is not the case. Even big cities were not built in a day. It took time for them to be developed. At the moment, the Central Province is slowly being developed. 

Sir, let me also talk about the rehabilitation of health facilities. The Bwacha Health Centre is being renovated using the money which was allocated in the 2013 Budget under the Poverty Reduction Programme (PRP). 

Sir, let me now talk about  infrastructure development. 

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Let us consult less loudly on my left.

Mr Mushanga: Mr Chairperson, Makululu Shanty Compound had gravel roads which have been upgraded to bituminous standard. I am not telling stories. This is something that you can see. For the past forty-nine years, the people of Makululu have never seen water, but right now, they have access to it through the Lukanga Water and Sewerage Company. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mushanga:  Mr Chairperson, there is serious leadership in place. We are aware that people will not stop talking. Hon. Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo is very much aware of this development. 

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Member on the Floor in order not to talk about the plight of the people who were employed by the Mulungushi Textiles who are busy begging for K10s so that they can come and complain to the President about their welfare? Is he in order not to mention that the Zambia Railways Headquarters has been moved to Lusaka when he is remaining with five minutes?

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: The serious ruling is that since he has five minutes remaining, he may, if he wishes …

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: … debate those points.

Continue, hon. Member.

Mr Mushanga: Mr Chairperson, that is why, when I started debating, I thanked my colleagues, Hon. Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo and Hon. Kapyanga, because they seriously debated issues to do with the Mulungushi Textiles. Further, I am aware that this Government is responding to the challenges the people of Kabwe are facing. I have no doubt in my mind that Mulungushi Textiles will one day be re-opened.

Hon. Back- Benchers: Hear, hear!

Mr Ng’onga: Eba MP aba.

Mr Mushanga: Mr Chairperson, I think it will be a sheer waste of time for me to talk about issues to do with Mulungushi Textiles which my two colleagues have already talked about. I want to assure the people of Kabwe District that we have a serious President, and that whether the people from the Opposition like it or not, Mulungushi Textiles will one day be re-opened. 

Mr Ng’onga: Hear, hear!

Mr Mushanga: Mr Chairperson, as I conclude, I want to state that there are so many projects happening in the Central Province. Serenje District, …

Mr Ng’onga: Hear, hear!

Mr Mushanga: … where Hon. Kosamu comes from, did not have a police station but as I talk to you, there is a contractor on site …

Hon. Back - Benchers: Hear, hear!

Mr Mushanga: … constructing a police station and houses for members of staff. That is a plus to Hon. Edgar Lungu, who is the hon. Minister of Home Affairs, and all the staff at his ministry.

Hon. Back-Benchers: Hear, hear!

Mr Mushanga: Mr Chairperson, even in Kapiri Mposhi, there are a lot of projects being undertaken. For instance, the upgrading of the Mukobeko/ Mpundi/ Chipepo/Ngabwe Road. There is also a bridge that will be put up on the Kafue River to replace the pontoon.

Mr Ng’onga: Hear, hear!

Mr Mushanga: Mr Chairperson, that is an indication that the Government is working.  Other projects include the upgrading of the 300 km of the Kabwe/Luano/Mkushi Road to bituminous standard … 

Mr Ng’onga: Hear, hear!

Mr Mushanga: … and they also intend to put up a bridge on Lunsemfwa River. We did not see such projects during the reign of the previous Government. 

Mr Chairperson, allow me to also talk about the high levels of unemployment. I believe what has caused this is lack of continuity. In 1991, when the MMD was leaving office, we had companies such as Livingstone Motor Assemblers, Zambezi Textiles for blankets, Zambia Clay Factory, Kabwe Industrial Fabrics, Mulungushi Textiles, Mansa Batteries, …

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mushanga: … Northern Milling …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo: Mr Chairperson, I rarely stand on points of order, but I have to because my colleague from the Central Province seems to have outdated information. Is he in order to mislead this House and the nation that the MMD left Government in 1991?

Laughter

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo: I need your serious ruling, Sir. 

The Deputy Chairperson: The serious ruling is that the hon. Member should take that contribution into account. 

Mr Mushanga: Mr Chairperson, I meant to say that when UNIP left Government many companies were still fully operational. I believe that if the MMD Government had formed more companies, the issue of unemployment would not have been there.
 
Mr Chairperson, apart from that, three weeks ago, the hon. Minister of Finance, Hon. Chikwanda …

Ms Kalima: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

This is the last point of order on the hon. Member debating.

Ms Kalima: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Member on the Floor debating so badly …

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Ms Kalima: … in order to talk about companies which are no more instead of talking about Mulungushi Textiles which they have failed to reinstate, so that he can speak on behalf of the people in Kabwe who desperately need this company to be fully operational? I seek your serious ruling.

The Deputy Chairperson: The serious ruling is that to the extent that he was reminding us of companies that have gone under, he was in order.

Continue, hon. Member.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mushanga: Mr Chairperson, I was just saying that four weeks ago, we opened the Kalonga Milling Plant in the Central Province, to be specific in Kabwe, at Mukobeko Maximum Prison.

Mr Ng’onga: Hear, hear!

Mr Mushanga: Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister of Finance was the guest of honour. Hon. Kampyongo was also there. This is an indication that this is a working Government. 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mushanga: Mr Chairperson, I will not respond to what the hon. Member who just raised a point of order said because I know that she is traumatised with …

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!  

Do not debate each other here.

Laughter

Mr Mushanga: So, Mr Chairperson, as I conclude, I was just trying to put a point across that this is a serious Government. We have a serious President.

Mr Ng’onga: Yes.

Mr Mushanga: Sir, we have a serious Cabinet.

Mr Ng’onga: Yes.

Mr Mushanga: Yes, Sir, we have serious hon. Members of Parliament.

Mr Ng’onga: Yes.

Mr Mushanga: Mr Chairperson, I know that as we reach 2016, most of the projects that we have lined up would have been implemented and the people of Zambia, to be specific, the people of the Central Province, will not find it very difficult to retain their  hon. Members of Parliament. In fact, we intend to increase the number of hon. Members of Parliament in the Central Province.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mushanga: Mr Chairperson, that is an indication that this PF Government is delivering on the promises it made during the 2011 General Elections.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you for the opportunity which you have given me to add my voice to the budget line for the Central Province
.
I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

The Deputy Chairperson: Before I call upon other hon. Members of Parliament to make their contributions, may I just amplify on my earlier ruling relating to the representation of the country in South Africa. Truly, the country is ably represented at the funeral of the late President of South Africa, Mr Nelson Mandela, by His Honour the Vice-President, Dr Scott.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: I am also told, although through unconfirmed sources, …

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: … that the Former President, Dr Kaunda, is also there representing us.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear, Chair!

Mr Sichula (Nakonde): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this chance to debate the budget line for Muchinga Province. In the first instance, I would like to pass my sincere condolences to the Dr Chikusu and Mandela families. 

Mr Chairperson, I stand to support the Vote for Muchinga Province even though I feel that the money allocated to it is inadequate in that this is a new province which needs a substantial amount so that it can reach the level of the other provinces. 

Mr Chairperson, as it is, Muchinga Province has no general hospital. In instances where cases get complicated, patients have to be referred to Kasama or Lusaka. This is why we need substantial monies to develop Muchinga Province. 

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichula: Mr Muchinga …

Laughter 

Ms Kalima: Mr Muchinga?

Mr Sichula: Mr Chairperson, Isoka District has no hospital. The referral hospital that was once in Isoka is in a deplorable state. We need a hospital in Isoka that can be used as a referral for the people of Chama, who have always used it as the main hospital, especially in the rainy season. 

Ms Kalima: Hear, hear!

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichula: Mr Chairperson, the one at Nakonde is experiencing the same problem. It is not yet a fully fledged hospital because it is still receiving clinic kits.  

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order on my left!

Mr Sichula: Mr Chairperson, we hope that we will have enough money for Nakonde, which is at second phase. We hope that the money will be released urgently so that the third phase is done in good time so that the people there receive the best service needed. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichula: Sir, at the moment, we have done the first and second phases and we are asking the hon. Minister of Health to assist us by opening up the completed blocks so that we avoid vandalism. 

Ms Kalima: Quality!

Mr Sichula: Mr Chairperson, with so many health posts in Muchinga, we need houses for the medical staff so that …

Ms Kalima: Umhumn.

Laughter 

The Deputy Chairperson: The voice of the hon. Member for Kasenengwa is very loud. Can she, please, be moderate. Continue, Hon. Sichula.

Laughter

Mr Sichula: …we can retain the staff in the rural parts of the province.

Ms Kalima: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mr Sichula: Mr Chairperson, the people of Muchinga Province, especially those in the eastern part of Nakonde and Isoka, need water. We need some dams so that our animals can have enough water to drink.  

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichula: Mr Chairperson, I am happy that the Government has given us a water project. However, we are saddened because the contractor is not working at a pace that is pleasing. We need this water urgently. The Government should ensure that when engaging contractors from Lusaka, it involves local people and provincial officers … 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichula: … who can easily monitor the contractors. As it is, when I am talking to a contractor, he refers me to the people in Lusaka. The contractor would rather speak to people in Lusaka than the people on the ground. 

Mr Chairperson, Nakonde is a border area. Therefore, we need well-marked beacons …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichula: … to avoid conflicts which come up with counterparts on the other side of the border. 

Sir, I am, therefore, looking forward to the Surveyor-General coming to the border to do what they have done on the Zambia/Malawi Border. I hope that the Surveyor-General’s Office has been given enough money to do the work on the Nakonde Border.

Mr Chairperson, I am pleased that the President has introduced the Link Zambia 8,000 km Road Project. The project will benefit all Zambians regardless of tribe, colour or political affiliation. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichula: Sir, the Link Zambia 8,000 km Road Project will open up the country and reduce the influx of people coming from rural areas to urban areas. It will also reduce the cost of doing business. For example, the people of the Eastern Province will be able to get to Muchinga Province through Nabwalya Road. Business transactions between the people of the Eastern and Muchinga Provinces will get easier. 

Mr Chairperson, we are also looking forward to the urgent funding of the Mbala/Nakonde Road. If this road gets worked on concurrently with the Kanyala/Nakonde Road, the people who are doing business from Malawi and Burundi will be assisted because it will easily link the Mpulungu Port and Blantyre via Kanyala Road. If this road is done, the two countries will also collect revenue from the toll gates. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichula: Mr Chairperson, works on the the Mbala/Nakonde Road are quite advanced and should soon be completed soon. The potholes on the Kanyala Road have been patched up. The people are happy that the road is now passable. 

Mr Chairperson, the location of Muchinga Province is good. It is highly fertile and can feed the eastern part of Zambia and the Great Lakes Region. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichula: Sir, all we need is support from the Government. All the pronouncements by the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Livestock should be fulfilled. 

Mr Chairperson, rice is grown in Nakonde, Chama and Isoka. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichula: All we need is encouragement. Most people think that this rice comes from Tanzania. It does not come from Tanzania, but Nakonde, Chama and Isoka. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichula: As I said earlier, all we need is support in terms of fertiliser which is mostly concentrated in the growing of maize. We need to diversify. 

With these few remarks, Sir, I thank you. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chishimba (Kamfinsa): Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank you for allowing me to add my voice to the debate on the Vote for the Copperbelt Province on behalf of the people of Kitwe and, in particular, the people of Kamfinsa Constituency.

Mr Chairperson, may I support the other two debaters who have contributed on the Vote for Copperbelt Province for appreciating the developmental projects which are taking place on the Copperbelt especially those related to infrastructure development. The Government decided to undertake the works on the Chingola/Kitwe Road to ensure that the accidents which claimed a lot of lives on that road were prevented.

Mr Chairperson, may I take the debates of Hon. Mutale and Hon. Steven Chungu as mine. They talked about the works on the Ndola/Kitwe Road which was in a deplorable state for so many years and also the Kitwe Urban Roads Rehabilitation Programme.

Mr Chairperson, may I thank my Government for embarking on the water reticulation project under the Kitwe Water Reticulation ABD Project which is being undertaken by Nkana Water and Sewerage Company. This is remarkable because, for so many years, the people of Kitwe have had the challenge of accessing clean water for twenty-four hours. However, through the project which is currently underway which will be completed next year, we will see water reticulation problems in Kitwe being a thing of the past particularly in Kamfinsa Constituency. The confidence which the people of Kitwe had in this Government is now paying off. 

Mr Ng’onga: Hear, hear!

Mr Chishimba: Mr Chairperson, I have a few things which I hope to bring to the attention of the hon. Deputy Minister of the Copperbelt Province, Mr Mwenya Musenge. The rehabilitation of feeder roads should actually be communicated to all the Members of Parliament on the Copperbelt. 

Mr Kazabu: Hear, hear!

Mr Chishimba: Hon. Deputy Minister, as you may be aware, our constituencies are divided into two parts, urban and peri-urban areas. We also have a very big challenge working on feeder roads in peri-urban areas. We want the hon. Deputy Minister to engage us when coming up with the list of feeder roads which will be worked using the K16,750,000 which has been allocated to the Copperbelt for the exercise. Hon. Deputy Minister, you need to engage us so that we give you a list of the most critical feeder roads which need to be worked on in our constituencies.

Mr Mwaliteta jokingly pointed at Mr Chishimba.

Mr Chishimba: Mr Chairperson, may I be protected from the hon. Deputy Minister of the Copperbelt Province.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

You enjoy full protection even from the hon. Deputy Minister of the Copperbelt Province.

Laughter

Mr Chishimba: Mr Chairperson, I feel humbled and grateful that my Government has decided to rehabilitate the Mwekera Bee-keeping Factory which is in my constituency. This will entail that jobs will be created once this project is complete. I also want to thank the Ministry of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection for accepting our plea that the Mwekera Bee-keeping Factory be rehabilitated. I also want to thank Zambia’s co-operating partners who are rehabilitating Mwekera College.

Mr Ng’onga: Hear, hear!

Mr Chishimba: Hon. Deputy Minister, as Members of Parliament on the Copperbelt, we have seen how committed your administration is to the completion of development projects in our province. We want to ensure that as we go into 2014, we engage all the Government officials so that all the projects are properly implemented. The Copperbelt Province, is the backbone of the PF Government which was elected by the masses. Therefore, we must ensure that the people on the Copperbelt start appreciating the importance of having voted for the PF.

Mr Chairperson, I also want to thank the Minister of Finance for allocating the Copperbelt Province what it really deserves so that it can continue embarking on infrastructure development projects.

Mr Ng’onga: Hear, hear!

Mr Chishimba: Mr Chairperson, with these few words, I wish to support the Vote for the Copperbelt Province.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kalima (Kasenengwa): Thank you, Mr Chairperson for the opportunity given to me to debate the Vote for the Eastern Province. 

Sir, the Eastern Province is mourning. We are mourning because of the misery that this PF Government has brought upon us.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kalima: That is why, Mr Chairperson, you have noticed that we are reluctant to debate. It is because we have not seen anything happening in our province. We do not come here to just talk. The PF Government has come in to finish off the country. 

Sir, basically, our mourning is more on what is happening in this country and the Eastern Province is the most affected.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Ms Kalima: Mr Chairperson, at the moment, three constituencies in the Eastern Province are not represented in this House. These are Petauke, Malambo and Vubwi. Hence, the people of Petauke, Malambo and Vubwi are mourning. So, what is there to talk about this PF Government which just came in to finish off this nation? That is why you have seen that we are reluctant to debate. Despite all this, I am standing here to speak on their behalf.

Sir, the court cases that have continued springing up under this Government have never been seen before in this nation. The nullifications are too much. Even after the nullifications, this Government went to court to ensure that those whose seats were nullified should not be allowed to stand. This started when Hon. Dora Siliya’s seat was nullified. It had to be in the Eastern Province. We are mourning. Is it because someone from the Eastern Province ruled this country? Is it a crime that Mr Rupiah Banda was given an opportunity to rule this country? 

Mr Sikazwe: Iwe ule landa pali Petauke!

Mr Bwalya: On a point of order, sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Bwalya: Mr Chairperson, thank you for giving me an opportunity to raise this point of order. As you know, I rarely stand on points of order.

Sir, there are three arms of the Government. These are the Judiciary, Executive and the Legislature. We, the hon. Members of Parliament belong to the Legislature. If the courts of law make a decision, we have no control over that decision …

Hon. Opposition Members interjected.

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Member, can you now come to the point of order after that preamble.

Mr Bwalya: Is Hon. Kalima in order to continue with her cross-country kind of debate and lamentations when we are debating the Budget and not the nullification of parliamentary seats? Unfortunate as the case may be, right now, we should focus on the Budget debate.

I need your serious ruling, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: The serious ruling is that lamentations are allowed in this House, especially that I understood her lamentation to centre on under-representation as a result of certain constituencies which are not represented here.

Hon. Member, you may continue.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kalima: Mr Chairperson, before the point of order was raised, I was talking about how the people from the Eastern Province have become victims of hatred. This tribalism has even been extended to themselves in the PF. I did speak, on the Floor of this House, how, even within the PF, the Easterners have suffered by losing their jobs. Is it just the Easterners who are wrong? We have had hon. Deputy Ministers from the Eastern Province that have been sent to the Back Bench. We have seen Easterners who have been recalled from the diplomatic service and we wonder why. Now, I am not surprised that the Eastern Province is having many accidents. I believe someone is bewitching the Easterners.

Laughter

Ms Kalima: Mr Chairperson, the Eastern Province needs to have more schools constructed. The pronouncement by the hon. Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education that the Government will only construct 200 schools is saddening. Under the MMD Government, we saw how a number of schools were built in every constituency. Statistics showed that in the 2014 Budget, some constituencies will not have funds allocated for the construction of schools. Fifty years after independence, we cannot continue having children learning in dilapidated schools, under trees or indeed in grass-thatched classrooms. We expect the Government to put more money in this area and ensure that the Eastern Province has enough schools especially that it is said that the wise are from the east. Without education, it is very difficult for us to progress.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kalima: Mr Chairperson, let me give an example of my own constituency, where we only have two secondary schools, Mboza, which is very new and, indeed, Kasenengwa Secondary School. We want to see how funds are allocated to ensure that the issue of constructing schools in phases comes to an end. Right now, as I am speaking, the state of affairs at Kasenengwa Secondary School leaves much to be desired. I have, on a number of times, spoken to the Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education to point out that the girl children at the school draw water from the nearby villages. Unlike a boy child, it is very difficult for a girl child to go to school without taking a bath. So, you will note that if we continue delaying the completion of the schools, the girl child is the one who gets more affected.

We would want to see more funds allocated for the sinking of boreholes in the Eastern Province. The money that the Government has allocated, in the 2014 Budget, for sinking boreholes in the Eastern Province is not enough. You know that water is cardinal to everybody’s life and so, we expected the Government to allocate more resources for the sinking of boreholes in the Eastern Province.

Sir, in order to safeguard the life of the girl child, we want to see a school built within every 10 km in the province. If we have more schools, we will reduce the incidences of rape which school girls suffer in between schools because they have to walk long distances. This has contributed to the increased number of early marriages and pregnancies. We want to see more dormitories built at every school in the Eastern Province. This is our cry for the sake of reducing the distances in between schools.

Mr Chairperson, I remember when I was at Lwitikila Girls Secondary School, we used to have companies like Johnson and Johnson Limited which came and educated us on what a girl should do after reaching puberty and distributed sanitary towels. We would want the Government to see how it can engage schools to ensure that the girl child is given sanitary towels in the Eastern Province. 

Sir, you would want to note that for seven days every month, a girl child withdraws from school. This translates into one month in a term that a girl child does not go to school. So, I would like to inform the Government that in the Eastern Province, we would want to see a situation like it was before where the girl child was being looked after and compulsorily provided with sanitary towels. I believe the PF Government could do something to that effect.

Mr Chairperson, the 650 health posts have been talked about a number of times. I think immediately the PF came into power, it started talking about these health posts to prove that the mobile hospitals which were procured under the MMD Government were not really worth it, as our colleagues said. However, to date we have not seen those health posts. 

Mr Chairperson, I would like the hon. Minister to be aware that we expect to see the construction of these health posts so that we have more clinics in the provinces. It is a pity right now that in the middle of us talking about having more nurses and lamenting about the high patient to nurse ratio, the Government has decided to terminate the employment of over 200 nurses. We want to see more nurses and health centres in the Eastern Province so that people are properly attended to.

Mr Chairperson, we would also want to see many roads rehabilitated. We have a number of roads in the Eastern Province that are impassable. We have heard a number of our friends and I think …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Order!

Let us consult less loudly. I am following the debate from that end.

Ms Kalima: Sir, we have heard our friends talking about development in their areas. I think Hon. Chishimba was boasting about the number of roads on the Copperbelt and Muchinga provinces that have been constructed. We have not seen that in Eastern Province. We want to see more of our roads also rehabilitated. We want to feel what it is like to have good roads. We want to feel the way we felt when it was the time of the MMD Government, when we enjoyed.

Interruptions

Ms Kalima: Apart from being bewitched, that is probably why we are having a number of accidents on the Great East Road …

Mr Chishimba: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Chishimba: Mr Speaker, this is my first time to rise on a point of order in the House. Is the hon. Member of Parliament for Kasenengwa in order not to appreciate what this Government is doing to uplift the living standards of the Zambian people? I particularly refer to the Copperbelt where she even comes to drive on the same roads which this Government is working on. Is she in order not to appreciate what my Government is doing for this country?

The Deputy Chairperson: The serious ruling is that the hon. Member debating is in order to appreciate what she sees.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kalima: Mr Chairperson, actually, the hon. Member was lamenting and telling off his hon. Minister that he had not seen enough and I was just helping him. We want to see the little that they have seen on the Copperbelt. Like I stated in the preamble, the Eastern Province is disappointed with this Government and there is nothing to appreciate because we are mourning.

Mr Chairperson, in conclusion, the Eastern Province would like to see the early release of the CDF so that we can implement our projects at a small level. The CDF is cardinal to the development of the nation because that is money assured to facilitate development as it is distributed through the hon. Members of Parliament unlike some other development ventures that are selective. 

Mr Chairperson, in our lamentation, as Eastern Province, we have noted that it has been awarded 16,000 metric tonnes of fertiliser. Right now, only 350 metric tonnes have been received at a cost of US$0.13 cents translating to US$200 per tonne. You will note that this 350 metric tonnes has been transported in twelve truckloads and the balance would need 500 truckloads to transport. However, when we look at the urea that has been imported from Tanzania, through Malawi to the Eastern Province, it is only on 200 trucks. So, we are wondering how we are going to receive this 16,000 metric tonnes of urea. Therefore, as I stated earlier, we are sad. We are very sad. Kasenengwa is not happy. The people from Sinda, Petauke and the whole of the Eastern Province are lamenting and yet this is a province that produces so much. There is so much that it contributes to the country. It is a haven of the produce. Lundazi is also complaining. 

Mr Chairperson, Like I stated, I am a woman of very few words, but I believe that I have made my point.

Hon. Government Member: Question!

Ms Kalima: Sir, the Eastern Province is very disappointed with the performance of the PF Government because it expects it to do better.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Any further debate? If you do not take advantage of these slots, you may not have a chance to debate tomorrow. So, it is your time. I note that for Head 90, Lusaka Province, only one hon. Member of Parliament has debated. For Head 94, Western Province, two Members have debated; for Head 95, Eastern Province one has debated, for Head 96, Luapula Province, two have debated and for Head 97, North-Western Province, two have debated.  Any further debate from the hon. Members of Parliament from these areas? This may just be your chance. 

Mr Kambwili: Kalima!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! 

Hon. Members of Parliament from these provinces, I am noting those that are here. Tomorrow, if you stand and you are not given chance, do not complain because I am noting that you do not want to debate except at your own time. 

Mr L. J. Ngoma (Sinda): Mr Chairperson, since I might not have this opportunity tomorrow, allow me to thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute on the debate on this Vote, especially on behalf of the people of my constituency.

Mr Chairperson, from the outset, just like the hon. Member for Kasenengwa indicated, I also wish to indicate that ever since the PF Government took over the governance of this country, the people of the Eastern Province have been in a serious state of mourning. There is nothing to talk about as far as development is concerned in the Eastern Province. It is no wonder that in the subsequent by-elections that will be happening at parliamentary level, I can assure the PF that it will continuously have a bashing because it has been unable to deliver to the expectations of the people in the Eastern Province.

Mr Chairperson, only last week, the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Livestock was on the Floor of this House indicating that seed, fertiliser and other inputs would be distributed soon. He is on record as having accused me of not visiting my area. 

Mr Chairperson, having come from the Eastern Province only a few days ago, I want to put it on record that as I am speaking right now, there is no single bag of fertiliser or seed which has been distributed in the Eastern Province. One wonders what is going to happen to this country because the Eastern Province is the food basket for this country. If the Eastern Province is held back as far as agriculture production is concerned, then I wonder what is going to happen next year. We just have to, probably, thank God that the rains have not yet come and hence, people are still trying to look for monies so that they can buy fertiliser. However, if the rains had come earlier, one wonders what was going to happen. As things stand right now, the PF Government has failed as far as agriculture is concerned.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr L. J. Ngoma:  Sir, its leaders are used to making flowery statements on the Floor of this House without doing a good job. They have lamentably failed to deliver fertiliser to the people of the Eastern Province.

Mr Sikazwe: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

A point of order is raised.

Mr Sikazwe: Boi ikala first. Ulebepa ubufi.

Laughter 

Mr Sikazwe: Mr Chairperson, I thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to raise a point of order.

Mr Chairperson, I have been seated listening to the debaters from the Eastern Province. It seems they are contradicting themselves. The previous debater before Hon. L. J. Ngoma told us that fertiliser has started arriving in the Eastern Province. Hon. L.J. Ngoma is telling us that there is nothing that has been delivered. Are they in order to mislead this House instead of telling the truth about what is happening?  

I need your serious ruling.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The simple ruling is that the hon. Deputy Minister for the Eastern Province will take up your perceived inconsistencies as he summarises, that is, if there are any inconsistencies.

You may continue, Hon. L.J. Ngoma.

Mr L. J. Ngoma: Mr Chairperson, I think that whatever the hon. Member of Parliament for Mpulungu talked about is from a point of ignorance because I am just …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The ruling has already been made.

Mr L. J. Ngoma: Mr Chairperson, I have just come back from the Eastern Province recently, and I want to reiterate that there is no distribution of seed and fertiliser going on as I am speaking right now. What the PF has done is just to distribute forms for the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP), and that cannot be equated to the distribution of fertiliser and seed in the province. That is just a farce.

Mr Chairperson, we were promised 650 rural health posts in all the constituencies in this country. The people of the Eastern Province are complaining that the PF Government is full of mere talk even concerning the issue these health posts. This is because, on the Floor of this House, the PF Government say one thing, but what is obtaining on the ground in our constituencies is different. 

Prof. Lungwangwa: Rhetoric! Rhetoric!

Mr Ngoma: Sir, a few weeks ago, the hon. Minister of Health indicated that he was going to commission the construction of these 650 health posts. As at now, no single construction project has commenced. There are no such construction works in Sinda, Nyimba, Kapoche or Lundazi. The situation is the same countrywide. One wonders why they opt to give false information on the Floor of the House.

Mr Chairperson, as far as the development of road infrastructure is concerned in the Eastern Province, we are at a loss. When the MMD was in power, there was development as far as roads were concerned in the Eastern Province.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Ngoma: Sir, when the MMD was in power, we used to have the development of road infrastructure in the Eastern Province and a number of constituencies in this country. However, ever since the PF Government took over, we do not even know where they are taking the money for the RRU. This Government is full of plunderers because they do not know how to deliver development.

Interruptions 

Mr L. J. Ngoma: Sir, in the Eastern Province, we are complaining that the switch-over at Permanent Secretary (PS) level has been very high. When the PF came to power in 2011, the first PS was a Col. Nkunika. A few months down the line, came a Hon. Bert Mushala. A few months later, we had Mr Emmanuel Mwamba. Now, we have a Dr Chileshe. So, within three …

Mr M. H. Malama: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr M. H. Malama: Mr Chairperson, I find it very difficult to remain quiet even though the hon. Deputy Ministers from the provinces will respond to certain issues subsequently. Is the hon. Member debating in order to state that there are no works going on in the Eastern Province on roads, without stating that, in fact, it is this Government which has started, for the first time, widening the Great East Road, working on township roads in Chipata and in many more districts, including the paving of markets in the Eastern Province? Not only that, is he in order not to state that, for the first time, the people of Chadiza will see a bituminous road?

I seek your serious ruling.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

You have adequately debated your point of order.

Please, continue, Hon. L. J. Ngoma.

Mr L. J. Ngoma: Mr Chairperson, a point of ignorance will always be just that. 

Sir, the widening of the Great East Road was an MMD project.

Hon. Government Aah! Question!

Mr L. J. Ngoma: Mr Chairperson, the able leadership of former President Rupiah Banda, together with the former Minister of Finance, Hon. Dr Situmbeko Musokotwane, signed a loan agreement for that project.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr L. J. Ngoma: Sir, they cannot get credit for something that they did not …

Interruptions 

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! 

(Debate adjourned)

__________

HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

__________

The House adjourned at 1957 hours until 1430 hours on Wednesday, 11th December, 2013.