AILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE THIRD SESSION OF THE ELEVENTH ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 25th June, 2014

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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ANNOUNCEMENT BY MR DEPUTY SPEAKER

DELEGATION FROM THE PARLIAMENT OF UGANDA

Mr Deputy Speaker: I wish to acquaint the House with the presence, in the Speaker’s Gallery, of the following hon. Members of Parliament and staff from the Parliament of Uganda.

(a) Hon. Roland Mugume Kaginda, Deputy Opposition Whip - Leader of the Delegation;

(b) Hon. Mathias Nsubuga, Democratic Party Whip;

(c) Hon. Santa Alun, Member of the Opposition; and

(d) Mr Moses Byamugisha, Policy Analyst - Secretary to the Delegation.

I wish, on behalf of the National Assembly, to receive our guests and warmly welcome them in our midst.

I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, Hear!

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MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

PRESIDENT SATA’S VISIT TO ISRAEL

The Vice-President (Dr Scott): Mr Speaker, I wish to refer to the point of order raised by Hon. Jack Mwiimbu, MP, this week, on 24th June, 2014, concerning the visit by His Excellency the President, Mr Michael Chilufya Sata, to the State of Israel in which he said the following claim:

“This is surrounded by controversy, and there is a need to end the questions, speculations and innuendos.”

 The hon. Member of Parliament did not give verbatim quotations or specified media sources that he has been perusing. So, this makes it a bit difficult for me to be highly specific in my answer. However, I will do my best.

Sir, the press statement issued by the acting Minister of Information and Broadcasting, Hon. Mwansa Kapeya, MP, on Sunday, 22nd June, 2014, confirmed that the President is in Israel on a working holiday. The Israeli President is aware of President Sata’s presence in Israel and may, in due course, meet him when it is convenient for both Presidents. That is all I can say without entering into the fantasy world of the Zambian social media and its necrophiliac correspondence and editors.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the ministerial statement given by His Honour the Vice-President.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, the answer that has been given by His Honour the Vice-President will actually lead to further speculation and innuendos pertaining to President Sata’s visit. I thought that His Honour the Vice-President was going to be very detailed in his answer.

I would like to find out why, this time around, the President’s visit to Israel has been shrouded in secrecy and there has been no publicity pertaining to his visit to that country as was the case when he last visited other countries.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I remember precisely that a statement was issued on Sunday because I participated in drawing it up. We know that the President arrived in Tel Aviv, Israel. So, we can await further journalistic input.

Sir, I do not recall our President or any President ever taking journalists around when he is on a working holiday. I think it is contrary to the practice. Usually, the President will greet them in the morning and then they leave because he is not there to follow them in some highly politically charged endeavours. So, I think the speculation is there, but it is self propelled.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Namugala (Mafinga): Mr Speaker, the majority of Zambians wish the President well. In so doing, Zambians have the right to know if he is unwell so that they can pray for him and send him good wishes.

Sir, could His Honour the Vice-President tell us why we are not told when the President is going outside the country, what the mission is and why we do not see him waving at the citizens as he leaves the country.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members will appreciate the fact that when that point of order was raised yesterday, I did not hesitate to direct His Honour the Vice-President to come up with a ministerial statement. This was because the point of order was on the whereabouts of the President. Now, if we are going to touch on the health of the President, …

Hon. Opposition Members interjected.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

… then, I will be contradicting the ruling made by the Hon. Mr Speaker when he said that he would not compel the Executive to say anything or answer questions relating to the health of the President. So, it is in that light that I do not want to contradict the ruling that was made. Let us stick to the statement by His Honour the Vice-President, and not raise issues of the health of the President. I, therefore, cannot sustain that question.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Government Member: Mwendoshi, mwe.

Hon. Opposition Member: Wendoshi niwe.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Speaker, why was it difficult to inform the Zambian people about his visit on the day that the President left the country, but only tell us that he arrived where he went?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I am just wondering about the actual timetable. I was tied up on Saturday, and the first thing I did on Sunday morning, together with several other hon. Ministers, was to draw up a statement, having confirmed that the President had arrived in Tel Aviv. I am sorry, but I do not see why we should all get very excited. I know that when the hon. Member leaves Kalomo to go to Lusaka, there is a lot of beating of drums and celebrations and so on and so forth, but I do not think that we should extend that tradition into the national life.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Mr Speaker, the President is for all Zambians …

Mr Livune: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Livune: Mr Speaker, yesterday, you heard that I have a brother from Livune Constituency. Is Hon. Kambwili, my brother, in order to refer to us, here, as indoshi, meaning wizards? I need your serious ruling, Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: The serious ruling is that let me reiterate, and I want to emphasise the word, ‘reiterate’ and not ‘retaliate’ as most of us like saying. I want to reiterate what we have constantly said from this end that, please, avoid making running commentaries while seated. The fact that we sit here does not mean that we do not hear the running commentaries, but we let them pass with the hope that somebody else will not notice. However, fortunately or unfortunately, the hon. Member for Katombola heard the running commentaries. Therefore, the hon. Minister is definitely not in order.

The hon. Member for Chadiza may continue.

Mr Mbewe: Sir, the President is Government property and belongs to the people of Zambia. Therefore, Zambians have the right to know where he is at any given time. In view of this, I would like to find out from His Honour the Vice-President whether his Government is in a position to avail the Zambian public video footage of the President who is purported to be in Israel.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, there is no purporting of any kind. The President is in Israel.

Laughter

The Vice-President: If you wish to believe some other fantastical tale, go ahead and enjoy it, but the truth is that the President is in Israel. I will make inquiries about the video footage if the House so wishes. It has not occurred to me to go looking for video footage of the President’s arrival in Tel Aviv.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Lubezhi (Namwala): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from His Honour the Vice-President why, this time around, the President’s departure left the Executive confused …

Interruptions

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

Ms Lubezhi: … to the extent that they forgot to remove the sentries from the main gate of State House.

The Vice-President: Sir, these are formalities that occasionally break down because they do not mean much. I should imagine that is what happened.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Antonio (Kaoma Central): Mr Speaker, we are now being told that His Excellency the President has gone on a working holiday. When is he coming back?

The Vice-President: I do not have that information, Sir.

Thank you, Sir.

Laughter

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo (Mumbwa): Mr Speaker, His Excellency the President is a senior citizen that I worked under at various levels; as a technocrat, senior doctor and politician under his tutorship. Therefore, the President of the Republic of Zambia is our President. Can His Honour the Vice-President give us an indication of how His Excellency the President’s health is doing. Is he going to be met by the officials in Israel or not?

Mr Deputy Speaker: Once again, I want to repeat what I said earlier that a ruling was made on the point of order seeking to know the health of the President, and the Speaker ruled that he would not compel the Executive to do that. Similarly, I am not compelling His Honour the Vice-President to say something, if he is not ready to do so. Do you have something to offer, His Honour the Vice-President?

The Vice-President indicated dissent.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Deputy Speaker: I see His Honour the Vice-President shaking his head, denoting that he does not want.

Dr Kaingu (Mwandi): Mr Speaker, the President’s trip to Israel has actually created a controversy. Is it true that there are some hon. Ministers who are refusing to take orders from the acting President?

Interruptions

Mr Deputy Speaker: No, I think …

Interruptions

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

That is an indication that we have exhausted questions on the speech.

 

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

NEW CONSTITUTION

502. Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central) asked the Vice-President:

(a) when the Constitution would be released to the public, considering that the Government had admitted having received the Draft Constitution from the Technical Committee on Drafting the Zambian Constitution; and

(b) when the referendum to adopt the new Constitution would be held.

The Deputy Minister in the Vice-President’s Office (Mr Mwango): Mr Speaker, …

Interruptions

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

He is answering the question, but some of us are consulting loudly. When it is time to ask follow-up questions, you will be tempted to ask a question that is not related to the answer because you did not hear the response. So, can we, please, listen.

Mr Mwango: Mr Speaker, during the last Session of this House, the hon. Minister of Justice stated that once the Draft Constitution is submitted to the Government, it would be dealt with in accordance with the legal framework provided for the enactment of the Constitution. Regarding the way forward on the Constitution-making process, I wish to inform this august House that the Ministry of Justice has prepared a Cabinet Memorandum in order to facilitate the submission of the Draft Constitution to the Cabinet. The Draft Constitution shall be published once the Cabinet approves its publication.

Following the publication of the Draft Constitution, it has to be subjected to public consultation and debate on the clauses contained therein, after which, depending on the outcome, the appropriate action can then be taken to conclude the Constitution-making process in accordance with Article 79 of the current Constitution Cap 1 of the Laws of Zambia. I further wish to add that the hon. Minister of Justice will provide a comprehensive statement on this matter at an appropriate time.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, at the time the Technical Committee on Drafting the Constitution was being appointed, it was stated that the Draft Constitution would be handed over simultaneously to the Head of State and the people of Zambia. What has changed for the Draft Constitution to be handed over to the Government only?

The Vice-President (Dr Scott): Mr Speaker, I have searched in vain for that provision in any sort of printed document. I think it is a wish entity. It is something people wish they had thought of at the time. I have not seen it. If the hon. Member wants to send me a copy of a document showing us having said that, we would hand over the report simultaneously to the public, the President and the Executive, I would be very interested to see that document. I, certainly, have not seen that statement in all my researches.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mucheleka (Lubansenshi): Mr Speaker, it is true that the terms of reference for the Technical Committee on Drafting the Constitution had a provision for the report to be handed over simultaneously to the President and the public. This is another area where we have difficulties. Can I find out from His Honour the Vice-President what the Government’s fear is to honour its word? It has failed to allow the Committee to hand over the report to the general public and the President. What is its fear?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, that seems to be the same question incorporated in the earlier one. I have recently read all the relevant documentation, but have not seen any promise to hand over the Constitutional Report simultaneously to the general public and the Executive. It is not a question of there being fears, but a question of there being false hopes.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Hamudulu (Siavonga): Mr Speaker, last Friday, I asked His Honour the Vice-President whether he was aware that one of the senior Cabinet Ministers informed the nation that the Government did not have enough money to see this process through. Do you foresee any financial challenges in the process of giving the Zambians a people-driven Constitution?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, they would have been there if we were keen …

Laughter

The Vice-President: … to implement the New Constitution because there was broad acceptance of it being people-driven and so on and so forth. We want to take a look at the so-called Constitution; the annex to the report, to see whether we can, firstly, get a broad agreement on it in the Cabinet and also in general discussion with the public. However, we have not got to that point yet of deciding whether it should be shelved on economic grounds or not.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Bwalya (Lupososhi): Mr Speaker, many civil society organisations, the Church and individuals have been advocating for civil strife to pressurise the Government to release the Draft Constitution. May His Honour the Vice-President comment on whether the Government can feel the pressure that is being exerted on it to release this document. Is this something to worry about, your Honour?

Laughter

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, there are some issues I lose sleep over, but that is not one of them.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, under article 51 of the Constitution of Zambia, the Cabinet is collectively responsible to this House. I recall that the hon. Minister of Justice, on the Floor of this House, informed the nation that he had received the report from the Technical Committee on Drafting the Constitution. Considering that His Honour the Vice-President is the Republican Vice-President, is he telling this House and the nation that he has no knowledge, whatsoever, of the receipt of the report from the Technical Committee on Drafting the Constitution pertaining to the Constitution-review process?

The Vice-President: Mr Chairman, I do not think that that is what I said. I said that I have never found the provision …

Laughter

Mr Deputy Speaker: Your Honour the Vice-President; you address the Chair as Mr Speaker.

Mr Muntanga: Yes.

You should address him as Mr Speaker.

The Vice-President: Did I call you …

Mr Deputy Speaker: You called me Chairman.

The Vice-President: I am sorry, Sir.

Laughter

The Vice-President: It must be all these physical failings of old age and stress …

Laughter

The Vice-President: … which the …

Mr Belemu: Stress.

The Vice-President: …various internet entities think they can simply invent …

Laughter

The Vice-President: … as they go along.

Mr Kambwili: The pages that are being run by opposition parties.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, let me refer to what was said because I think it will be educative to the House. It was said that, “Guy Scott is now too tired of representing Sata at most local and international fora.

Mr Muntanga: Yes.

Mr Livune: What is that now?

The Vice-President: He has just come from Bolivia and many other Presidential engagements since the President has not been working for some time now.”

Sir, old age and stress are …

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

Your Honour, the Vice-President.

Laughter

Mr Deputy Speaker: Is that related to the question?

Laughter

Mr Deputy Speaker: To me, it does not seem to be …

Interruptions

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

Your Honour the Vice-President, I am sorry if by reminding you to address me as Mr Speaker, that has derailed your line of thought. You are answering the question on the release of the report. Veer off that line of debate.

May his Honour the Vice-President, continue.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I think the answer is no.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Mr Speaker, it was supposed to be ready in ninety days and the ninety days are past. It is now almost three years and we only have about two years to complete our term of office.

Mr Chipungu: One year.

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, can his Honour the Vice-President tell me and the people of Chadiza whether the Constitution is going to be out before the next General Elections?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I have two issues to talk about. Firstly, I have previously pointed out to the general public, that is, people questioning me on television and so on and so forth, that we can change the Constitution in this House even tomorrow, given some time for consultations and posting of notice and so on and so forth. There is nothing that is stopping a well-meaning and unified approach to changing the Constitution. What is stopping it at the moment is it being used as a stick to beat the Government into releasing it. We are not going to be beaten into doing what we think is wrong. You can have a Constitution before the end of this year if you are genuinely interested in talking.

Hon. Opposition Members: Who?

Interruptions

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

The Vice-President: If you are interested in simply embarrassing the Government, the Government has nothing to do with playing that game.

Secondly, I have said, in response to this question, that a much more comprehensive statement will be made by the hon. Minister of Justice who is a lawyer and has been steering this whole process for the last three years.

Mr Livune: And acting President.

The Vice-President: I would advise people who want to go into the technicalities to basically deal with him when he makes that statement.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mutelo (Lukulu West): Mr Speaker, …

Mr Shakafuswa: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Shakafuswa: Mr Speaker, I need a serious ruling on this point of order. Is His Honour the Vice-President, who is the Head of Government Business in this House, in order to pass on questions posed to him to a subordinate hon. Minister to answer? Is he in order to start ‘monkeying’ …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shakafuswa: … about a serious issue like the Constitution which the people of Zambia are waiting for?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Deputy Speaker: These are occasions when the presiding officers also want to remind the House of certain issues. As a former teacher, I am very careful about making rulings on points of order that are meant to put out of context the use of certain words following a clarification that had been made earlier by the Hon. Mr Speaker. In light of that, the point of order cannot be sustained.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Deputy Speaker: The hon. Member for Lukulu West may continue.

Mr Mutelo: Mr Speaker, may His Honour the Vice-President come out clearly on the PF policy on the Constitution-making process. Having listened to his statement that said food and infrastructure are more important than a draft paper …

Interruptions

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Lukulu West, can you, please, ask your question because the longer you take to ask your question, the more likely you are to debate it. What is your question?

Mr Mutelo: Mr Speaker, what is the PF policy as regards the Constitution-making process, considering that you are on record as having said that infrastructure and food is more important than a draft Constitution?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, there are many places where we have no infrastructure and many people who have no food. These are very important inputs to the economic and social life in Zambia. We already have a Constitution, imperfect as it may be and needing change. At least, we can live with that same Constitution for six months, a year or whatever period. So, I was merely underlining the fact that what people need in this country is not just a piece of paper, but food security, infrastructure, education, health and so on and so forth. That is what I said and will stick by that.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Konga (Chavuma): Mr Speaker, His Honour the Vice-President has told the House that the Constitution will be tabled before the Cabinet. Will the Cabinet, thereafter, issue a Green Paper or what is the roadmap that will follow?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, as stated, we shall comply with Article 79 of the current Constitution, Cap 1 of the Laws of Zambia which specifies the manner in which Constitutional change shall take place.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lufuma (Kabompo West): Mr Speaker, we seem to be playing ping pong …

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Lufuma: … with the national Constitution, if you see what I mean.

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

We cannot see.

Mr Lufuma: You do not see it?

Hon. Government Members: No!

Mr Lufuma: That is a pity.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

There will be no discussion between the two sides. You know that you are supposed to speak through the Chair. Do not engage in dialogue. Can you ask your question?

Mr Lufuma: Mr Speaker, the game of ping pong must come to an end. I would like His Honour the Vice-President to give us the time frame for the Constitution to be delivered, and we will hold the Government to its word.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I am not, at this time, in a position to do that.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Deputy Speaker: I will take the last question by the hon. Member for Bangweulu.

Mr Matafwali (Bangweulu): Mr Speaker, I will let my question pass.

Laughter

MODERN MARKET IN KAPIRI MPOSHI

503. Mr Musonda (Kapiri Mposhi) asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing:

(a) whether the Government had any plans to construct a modern market at the town centre in Kapiri Mposhi; and

(b) if so, when the construction would commence.

The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr Kufuna): Mr Speaker, the Government has plans to construct modern markets and bus stations in all the districts, including Kapiri Mposhi. However, these are high value capital projects which can only be implemented when funds are made available. Therefore, construction will commence when funds are made available by the Treasury.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Did I see any person indicating to ask? You have to indicate without giving me time to rest. Otherwise, I will move on to the next item.

The hon. Member for Chavuma may ask.

Mr Konga: Mr Speaker, the hon. Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing has said that the Government will construct the market in Kapiri Mposhi when funds are made available. When does he intend to budget for the project so that the funds are made available for the construction of the market in Kapiri Mposhi?

Mr Kufuna: Mr Speaker, I said that we do not have the money to construct a modern market in Kapiri Mposhi at the moment. However, we have money in this year’s Budget to construct a market in Kapiri Mposhi albeit not a modern one, but a tambalala one.

I thank you, Sir.
 
Sir, K2 million has been budgeted for the construction that will start any time.

NATIONAL FOOD AND NUTRITION COMMISSION

504. Mr Mucheleka asked the Vice-President:

(a) whether the Government had any plans to review the  1967 National Food and Nutrition Commission Act so as to make it more autonomous and responsible for coordinating different sectors that implemented nutritional programmes;

(b) if so, when such plans would be implemented; and

(c) if there were no such plans, how the Government intended to make the commission effective and efficient in its operations.

Mr Mwango: Mr Speaker, the Government is aware of the need to update all laws regarding the health sector in order to bring the laws in line with the current developments in the country. This includes the National Food and Nutrition Commission Act.

Mr Speaker, the review of the National Food and Nutrition Commission Act has been included in the Ministry of Health …

Interruptions

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order, on both my left and right!

 If you need to consult, you are at liberty to go out of the Chamber, consult and come back.

You may continue, hon. Minster.

Mr Mwango: Mr Speaker, the review of the National Food and Nutrition Commission Act has been included in the Ministry of Health 2014 Policy. Therefore, the exercise will commence in 2014.

Mr Speaker, as indicated above, the review of the Act started last year. In the meantime, administrative measures have been taken to improve the operations of the commission, including the appointment of a new board and increased funding to the commission.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mucheleka: Mr Speaker, I appreciate the answer given by His Honour the Vice-President. I am aware that last year, while His Honour the Vice-President was attending a conference on nutrition in London, he committed himself to setting up a high-level steering committee on nutrition at Cabinet Office. May I find out from His Honour the Vice-President how far he has gone with that undertaking.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, we do not want to do things in parallel. We have got this commission and we are reviewing nutritional policy that will all come together in the end. However, we cannot be doing one thing in the Office of the Vice-President, another thing at the Food and Nutrition Commission, another thing at the Ministry of Health, and yet another thing at the Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Child Health. So, the setting up of a committee has not been lost sight of, but will be done in due course.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Hamududu (Bweengwa): Mr Speaker, in April, 2013, the Government launched the 1,000 Most Critical Days Programme meant to tackle the high malnutrition levels in the country. In June, 2013, His Honour the Vice-President talked about the increase in spending on nutrition by, at least, 20 per cent annually for the next ten years.  I would like to find out from His Honour the Vice-President what progress the Government has made so far regarding this commitment.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, that is a question I should rather have notice of, or you could give me notice now. I mean, I cannot give you figures on where we are going with nutritional expenditure until I have researched it.

I thank you, Sir.

BANGWEULU GENERAL HOSPITAL

505. Mr Bwalya asked the Minister of Health:

(a) what the progress on the construction of Bangweulu General Hospital in Lupososhi Parliamentary Constituency was;

(b) when the actual construction of the hospital would commence; and

(c) what the total cost of the project was.

The Deputy Minister of Health (Dr Chilufya): Mr Speaker, the Government is currently implementing the pre-contract preliminaries in the construction of Bangweulu General Hospital. The Ministry of Health has advertised for consultants to undertake the design and supervision of the proposed works. Bids are currently being evaluated and a consortium of consultants is expected to be engaged by July, 2014.

Mr Speaker, the design process is expected to be undertaken in four to six months, and thus works on Bangweulu General Hospital are expected to commence by the first quarter of 2015.

Mr Speaker, at this stage, it may not be possible to give the total cost of the project because the design process is not yet complete. However, the House may wish to note that construction of a general hospital may cost between K120 million and K150 million. The actual cost shall only be known once the design for the facility has been finalised.

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Bwalya: Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for that answer. Would it not have been prudent and cost effective to use the existing drawings in order to shorten the process and cut down on costs instead of engaging other designers?

Dr Chilufya: Mr Speaker, a technical assessment was made and it was decided that it may not be possible to use the same designs. Besides, it is not cheaper to use the existing designs.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mucheleka: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister, in his earlier answer, indicated that construction of Bangweulu General Hospital in Lupososhi Constituency may begin somewhere in the first quarter of 2015. Is the hon. Minister able to indicate the expected duration of the construction of the hospital? Once the construction begins in the first quarter of 2015, how long will it take for the hospital to be built in full?

Dr Chilufya: Mr Speaker, the construction of Bangweulu General Hospital will be in phases. We expect Phase I to be completed by the end of 2015, and we expect to start Phases II and III after 2016.

I thank you, Sir.

MAKUNKA INDUSTRIAL CLUSTER

506. Mr Livune (Katombola) asked the Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry when Makunka Industrial Cluster in Kazungula District would be established.

The Deputy Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry (Mr Sampa): Mr Speaker, the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry, through the Citizens Economic Empowerment Commission (CEEC), is supporting value chain industrial clusters in phases by increasing the number of participating districts each year. In Kazungula District in particular, the Government, through the CEEC, will support the establishment of value chain industrial clusters in 2015.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Livune: Mr Speaker, the ministry requested the council to identify land and this was done. I would like the hon. Minister to indicate when, exactly, in 2015, the activity will commence. I would like the hon. Minister to indicate whether this activity is going to commence in the first quarter of 2015, as he deems it fit.

Mr Sampa: Mr Speaker, this will be established by the end of 2015. You will be pleased to know that the ministry is focused on having each province identify three districts to see what the main economic activities are in those districts. Instead of re-inventing the wheel, we shall allocate money to the districts for the improvement of economic activities that the people in the districts are already engaged in. For Kazungula, we have identified tourism as the best industry to support. Therefore, by the end of 2015, the ministry will come and add value to that industry.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Speaker, the Zambian and the Botswana governments are investing in a multi-million dollar ultra-modern bridge to link Zambia to Botswana and, eventually, to Zimbabwe. Kazungula is also very close to another state, which is Namibia. Does this investment not motivate the Government to consider putting up a multi facility economic zone (MFEZ) in Kazungula so that Zambia can benefit from that investment in the bridge?

Mr Sampa: Mr Speaker, that is a valuable submission from my colleague. As a ministry, we will take that into consideration.

I thank you, Sir.

PIECE OF LAND AROUND THE ZAMBIA-CHINA MULUNGUSHI TEXTILES

507. Mr Kapyanga (Kabwe Central) asked the Minister of Defence whether the Government had any plans for the piece of land around the Zambia-China Mulungushi Textiles in Kabwe and, if so, what the plans were.

The Deputy Minister of Defence (Col. Lungu): Mr Speaker, the Government has plans for the land around the Zambia-China Mulungushi Textiles in Kabwe to build houses, a school, and medical, sports and recreation facilities as well as a shopping complex.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mushanga (Bwacha): Mr Speaker, the people of Bwacha and Kabwe Central constituencies would like to know when the projects you have talked about will start.

I thank you, Sir.

The Minister of Defence (Mr E. Lungu): Mr Speaker, currently, we are engaging stakeholders on the subject, including the local authority and the area hon. Members of Parliament for both Bwacha and Kabwe Central constituencies.

I thank you, Sir.

__________{mospagebreak}

MOTIONS

REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE ON LANDS, ENVIRONMENT AND TOURISM

Prof. Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that this House do adopt the Report of the Committee on Lands, Environment and Tourism for the Third Session of the Eleventh National Assembly laid on the Table of the House on 18th June, 2014.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Mr Kapyanga (Kabwe Central): Mr Speaker, I  beg to second the Motion.

Prof. Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, your Committee, in accordance with its functions provided in the National Assembly Standing Orders, set out to carry out a postmortem of the United Nations World Tourism Organisation (UNWTO) General Assembly co-hosted by Zambia and Zimbabwe to study the management and administration of Zambia’s forests and forest reserves, and undertook a local tour in relation to the two topical issues.

Sir, since hon. Members of this august House have taken time to thoroughly read the report, I will only highlight the key issues that emerged from your Committee’s deliberations. I will start with the postmortem of the 20th Session of the UNWTO General Assembly that was co-hosted by Zambia and Zimbabwe in August, 2013.

Mr Speaker, on behalf of your Committee, may I congratulate the Governments of the Republics of Zambia and Zimbabwe for successfully hosting the UNWTO General Assembly in August, 2013.

Sir, the hosting of the UNWTO General Assembly has, undoubtedly, increased Zambia’s visibility as a tourism or tourist destination. Hosting of such world-class events is the biggest marketing activity that any country can undertake. A number of other benefits were accrued to Zambia for hosting the Assembly, …

Interruptions

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

Prof. Lungwangwa: … namely:

(a) increased economic activities;

 (b) various infrastructure developments; and

 (c) improved general outlook of the city of Livingstone.

Mr Speaker, an event of such magnitude also comes with challenges, some of which I now highlight.

Sir, the first challenge was the late release of funds for preparatory activities. Notwithstanding the late release, these funds were also released in tranches. This had a negative effect on planning which was manifest in the organisational lapses when the General Assembly got underway.

Mr Speaker, the second challenge related to inadequacies in the planning process and poor coordination among the various sub-committees that were constituted to organise the conference.

Sir, the third challenge was the inadequate capacity of the human resource, specifically the following:

(i) the competences of some officers who were in charge of protocol duties were below the expected standard for an international event;

(ii) generally, there was a lack of tactical capacity to properly manage the procurement processes;

(iii) generally, there was a lack of monitoring and evaluation capabilities; and

(iv) there was inadequate capacity to supervise various activities.

Mr Speaker, as this is not the last tourism event that Zambia will host, it is important that practical measures are put in place to address the challenges that were faced in organising the 20th Session of the UNWTO General Assembly. These are outlined on pages 12 and 13 of your Committee’s Report.

Sir, your Committee observed that there were some projects which were not completed during the event. Your Committee is, therefore, urging the Executive to ensure that incomplete projects are expeditiously completed.

Mr Speaker, allow me to proceed to the second topic on the management and administration of forests and forest reserves.

Sir, over the past one or two months, there has been media coverage of the emergence of illegally-harvested timber in the eastern part of Lusaka Province. There have been similar stories in other parts of the country indicating the pervasiveness of uncontrolled logging. Your Committee has observed that this has mainly been as a result of a weak policy and legal framework.

The Forestry Department in the Ministry of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection lacks the human capacity to adequately police gazetted forests. Following the Public Sector Reform Programme of 1997, several key divisions in the department were abolished, including the phasing out of the position of forest ranger and forest guard. This cadre of officers was critical in the enforcement of the Forest Act.

Sir, with respect to the legal framework, the Forest Act of 1973 was repealed and replaced with the Forest Act of 1999 which, unfortunately, has never been operationalised. One of the key features of the 1999 Forest Act was the transformation of the Forestry Department into a Forest Commission. At the moment, the forestry sector is still operating under the 1973 Forest Act.

Mr Speaker, in view of the above, your Committee is recommending the urgent review of the Forest Policy and the entire legal framework guiding the forestry sector. In this regard, a new legal framework that cures the deficiencies of the 1973 Forestry Act and the non-operationalised 1999 Forestry Act should be finalised as a matter of urgency. One of the expected outcomes of the review is enhanced human capacity to monitor and regulate the forestry sector and enable the country to maximise the benefits of this important resource.

Sir, the hon. Ministry of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection should ensure that other operational requirements are made available such as funding and transport. Arising from your Committee’s tour of the forestry sector, your Committee wishes to emphasise the need for the policy and legislative framework to include the issue of community participation and benefit sharing in the administration of forests. Your Committee also urges the Executive to support and facilitate initiatives and programmes that curb deforestation. In this regard, the Executive is urged to support companies such as the Zambia Forestry and Forest Industries Corporation (ZAFFICO), Wood Processing Industries and Emerging Cooking Solutions.

Mr Speaker, in conclusion, on behalf of your Committee, I wish to express gratitude to you and the Clerk of the National Assembly for the support and services that were rendered toy our Committee during the session. I am also indebted to all the witnesses who appeared before your Committee for their co-operation in providing the information that was requested.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Mr Kapyanga: Now, Sir.

Mr Speaker, I beg to second the Motion that this House do adopt the Report of the Committee on Lands, Environment and Tourism for the Third Session of the Eleventh National Assembly laid on the Table of the House on 18th June, 2014.

Sir, since the Chairperson of your Committee has ably put your Committee’s views in general perspective, I will cite a few specific issues. With regard to the UNWTO Conference, your Committee noted that some of the disorganisation was as a result of the high turnover of Ministers and Permanent Secretaries at the Ministry of Tourism and Art, leading to the event.

Mr Speaker, while your Committee commends the quick action by the hon. Minister of Tourism and Art in relation to the unscrupulous officers who attempted to defraud the country over the hire of a temporary dome to host delegates, it notes that this situation partially arose because Zambia did not have the conference infrastructure required for the event. In this regard, your Committee recommends that the country diversifies its tourism product from nature based to include meetings, incentives, conferences and events, simply called MICE markets.

Sir, the development of a dynamic Tourism Policy and supporting legislation that take into account new trends in tourism marketing will lead to the development of the requisite training institutions as well as the hotel standards and growing systems. Your Committee also urges the Government to expeditiously work on the impediments identified at the UNWTO General Assembly that hinder tourism growth in Zambia, namely issues of regional policy harmonisation, air connectivity, infrastructure and the uni-visa.

Mr Speaker, arising from your Committee’s tour in Kaoma, it was learnt that the local timber producers feel disadvantaged in relation to foreign companies operating in the area. In this regard, where a local person has one licence to exploit a maximum of 100 m³ per month, foreign companies are being granted several commercial licences to harvest up to 600 m³ per month. Additionally, where the locals have to wait for up to two years for their licences to be approved, it takes not more than fourteen days for licences for foreign firms to be approved. Not surprisingly, this has led the local timber producers to believe that there is corruption in the issuance of timber concession licences among Government officials.

Sir, in this regard, your Committee urges the Government to review and reconcile laws such as the Zambia Development Agency Act that allows foreign investors with a prescribed quantum of investment to go into areas such as timber selling vis-à-vis the Forestry Act which prescribes how timber selling should be done.

Mr Speaker, as regards the responses from the Executive as contained in the Action-Taken Report, your Committee makes the general observation that the Executive has shown a lack of seriousness. For example, with regard to questions on the creation of appropriate land policies and laws, the Action-Taken Report states that these would only be done after the enactment of the new Constitution which is now being said to be unnecessary.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! Hammer!.

Mr Kapyanga: Mr Speaker, upon being pressed for clarification on policy matters, the Executive’s response has been that the policy framework …

Hon. Opposition Member: Hammer!

Mr Kapyanga: … currently guiding the enactment of land legislation and policy is the Patriotic Front (PF) Manifesto.

Mr Speaker, your Committees note that, by its definition, a party manifesto, which is a campaign tool, is a statement by a political party which it believes in and what it intends to do, whereas a Government policy is a way of doing things that have been officially agreed upon. It is in this regard that your Committee urges the Government to come up with national policies that will embrace all sectors and people.

Mr Speaker, I beg to second.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kaingu (Mwandi): Mr Speaker, this is one sector …

Mr Miyutu: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Miyutu: Mr Speaker, thank you for according me this chance to rise on a point of order bordering on the welfare of the people of Kalabo. Following several points of order that were raised in this House, the hon. Minister of Youth and Sport eventually brought to this House a list of beneficiaries of the 2013 Youth Development Fund (YDF). The list shows seven youth groups from Kalabo, but only two youth groups received the money. Is the hon. Minister of Youth and Sport in order to present information which does not reflect the truth on the ground, thereby misleading the people of Kalabo, the Western Province, the House and the nation at large, by implying that the YDF has been evenly and equitably distributed to the people of Zambia? Is the hon. Minister in order?

I beg your serious ruling, Mr Speaker.

Mr Deputy Speaker: My serious ruling is that your point of order, important as it is, is being made at a wrong time because our rules state that a point of order has to be relevant to the issue under discussion, must be on procedure and be of national importance. I know it is important, but the nation is not on fire. In light of this, I can request the hon. Member for Kalabo Central to file in a question for oral answer.

Can the hon. Member continue, please.

Dr Kaingu: Mr Speaker, before I was interrupted, I was saying that the tourism sector is one sector that could alleviate poverty in Zambia if taken seriously.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

At the time I was making a ruling, I did not read a note that came to me. It has come to my attention that the hon. Minister will actually be making a statement tomorrow in relation to the point of order raised by the hon. Member for Kalabo Central.

The hon. Member may continue, please.

Dr Kaingu: Mr Speaker, there is empirical evidence that tourism is indisputably the world’s number one employer. This Government found a very strong foundation that was laid by the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) Government and one wonders why it could not build on that strong foundation. The foundation that I am referring to is the Tourism Policy, the one-stop-shop, the bond in Southern Africa towards creating the uni-visa, the Regional Tourism Organisation of Southern Africa (RETOSA) and many other programmes that created a strong foundation.

Mr Speaker, it could be seen when it came to actualising the programme of the UNWTO General Assembly that our Government delayed in releasing the resources to the Ministry of Tourism and Art, and yet the Government knew very well that it was in competition with the other Government across the Zambezi River. When you look at the amounts of money that were released in piecemeal, you will appreciate that we are lucky that Zambia managed to put up the little infrastructure that we saw. Zimbabwe appropriated US$150 million, and when you compare that to the amount that is appearing in your report, you can see that Zimbabwe had a comparative advantage over Zambia. As a result, Zimbabwe made many achievements and accrued tangible benefits from the UNWTO General Assembly. For example, whereas Zambia only managed to hire a marquee, Zimbabwe now has a top-of-the-range convention centre that can be used any time to host a big event.

Mr Speaker, Zimbabwe had no problem with infrastructure such as roads, water reticulation and sewerage. Zimbabwe, especially the Victoria Falls Town, has no problem with water but, if you go to Livingstone, you will find that it is still struggling with the problem of water, and yet both countries were given an opportunity to build infrastructure during the UNWTO Conference. Other than the tangible benefits that I have mentioned, Zimbabwe was also given the UNWTO presidency and the chairmanship of the African Region. Therefore, you can see that Zimbabwe has an advantage over Zambia. If we were to host another convention like the UNWTO General Assembly, Zimbabwe would not need to invest in infrastructure as much as Zambia. It is surprising that Zambia knew about hosting the conference as early as 2008, but the inertia that was seen in the Government Ministers at that time left Zimbabwe with an advantage over Zambia.

Mr Kambwili: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, I thank you for allowing me to rise on a very serious point of order. Is the hon. Member speaking in order to contradict himself by stating that Zambia knew about hosting the UNWTO Conference in 2008 and that there was a lot of inertia by the Ministers when he was the Minister in charge of tourism at the time and the PF only came into power in 2011?

Is he in order to blame himself for the inertia that led to Zimbabwe being given the presidency because he failed to do his job?

Mr Deputy Speaker: As the hon. Member of Parliament for Mwandi continues with his debate, he can take that point of order into account.

Dr Kaingu: Mr Speaker, I do not even see the contradiction myself.

Laughter

Dr Kaingu: What I am saying is that Zambia actually won the opportunity to host the UNWTO General Assembly in 2008 and, of course, I was the Minister responsible for the ministry then. However, when we started working on the infrastructure to host the UNWTO General Assembly, a calamity befell us, as a country, and I think everybody knows that. After the demise of our President, unfortunately, a new Government came into power.

Hon. Government Members: Question.

Dr Kaingu: It is this new Government that exhibited the inertia that I am talking about …

Hon. Government Members: Question.

Dr Kaingu: … and, in fact, the former hon. Minister is here.

Mr Mufalali: Bauze.

Dr Kaingu: Mr Speaker, when an opportunity came for Zambia and Zimbabwe to send a focal point person to the UNWTO Headquarters in Madrid, Zambia could not send someone because it did not have the financial resources. I am speaking on behalf of the hon. Minister who  is here. It took long for the hon. Minister to get the resources …

Mrs Masebo: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker, I rise on a very serious point of order. As you know, I rarely rise on points of order. However, this …

Hon. Government Members: Old man.

Mrs Masebo: I do not know who he is.

Laughter

Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker, this man who is on the Floor of the House …

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order, order!

Can you be civil in your debate and address him as the hon. Member of Parliament on the Floor of the House.

Mrs Masebo:  I should not be like him. You are right, Sir.

Mr Speaker, is the hon. Member of Parliament for Mwandi in order to come on this honourable Floor of the House and mislead the whole country with the points that he has made. The first point that he made is that Zimbabwe had $150 million more than Zambia, which is not factual. The second point that he made on the Floor of this House is that Zimbabwe got the position of presidency which Zambia did not get.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member of Parliament for Chongwe!

I can see that you are using the point of order to debate. The best you can do is to indicate to speak on the matter. Then, you can clarify the issues that he is raising. So, if you have a direct point of order, make it now.

Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker, I just want to say that the hon. Member of Parliament is not in order to mislead this House.

Hon. Members: Aah!

Mr Deputy Speaker: Are you making a ruling on my behalf?

Laughter

Mrs Masebo: As I said, Mr Speaker, I rarely rise on points of order. I always prefer to remain quiet but, because the hon.  Member is telling lies on the Floor of the House, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mrs Masebo: … I am forced to …

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order, order!

 I think the hon. Member should indicate to debate because the more you make your point of order, the more you are getting out of order.

Can the hon. Member for Mwandi continue.

Dr Kaingu: Mr Speaker, I did not mention anybody’s name. The guilty are afraid.

Laughter

Dr Kaingu: Mr Speaker, I agree with her. The issues that I am raising are not in your Committee’s Report. I am privileged to have this information that she does not have.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kaingu: Mr Speaker, $150 million was spent by Zimbabwe and she can go and check if she wants.

Mr Sikazwe: Where?

Interruptions

Dr Kaingu: Maybe, at the Zimbabwean Embassy.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Please, ignore the hecklers.

Dr Kaingu: Thank you very much, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker, whereas Zimbabwe has established an international convention centre to host any type of conference, Zambia spent K10 million on the hire of a marquee. If that is not a fact, then I will apologise to the one who hired it.

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Members: What is a marquee?

Dr Kaingu: A marquee is a tent for temporary use.

Mr Speaker, because of the efforts that Zimbabwe has made, it is now expected to receive about three million tourists per year. Zambia is still struggling with just under 1,000,000 tourists. I left the figure at about 900,000 tourists coming into the country per year and this Government has failed to increase the figure by 100,000.

Mr Speaker, Zimbabwe …

Mr Kambwili: Zimbabwe.

Dr Kaingu: Yes, hon. Minister, I am taking about Zimbabwe so that we can compare it with Zambia. After hosting the UNWTO General Assembly, Zimbabwe has continued to advertise the Victoria Falls and Victoria Falls Town through the media. In fact, I saw the advertisement on the Supersport channel. Zambia has closed shop and it is no longer advertising on international media.

Mr Speaker, you must know that Zambia is competing with Zimbabwe on getting international tourists and, if we do not have the comparative advantage and profile the country to a level where it can be attractive to tourists, we will forever be playing under Zimbabwe. This is the more reason most of the activities of the UNWTO General Assembly were in Zimbabwe to a level where the hon. Minister of Tourism and Art accused our President to be the President of Zimbabwe.

With those few remarks, I would like to support the report.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lufuma (Kabompo West): Mr Speaker, from the outset, I would like to commend your Committee for a well elaborated and presented report. I think that it is a very good analysis of what happened during the UNWTO General Assembly held in Livingstone last year.

Mr Speaker, I will concentrate on tourism and one other item which, I think, is of great importance to us. Paragraph 2 of Page 8 of your Committee’s Report talks about the key challenges that were encountered during the conference as follows:

“The other challenge was the lack of a national airline. The direct flights by Kenyan Airways and South African Airways alleviated this challenge, but a lasting solution was to have a national flag carrier.”

Mr Speaker, Page 10 of your Committee’s Report talks about the benefits accrued to Zambia for co-hosting the UNWTO General Assembly, and emphasises the need for a national carrier. My contribution to your Committee’s Report will be based on this point. 

Mr Speaker, as we all know, a national flag carrier is very desirable. It may bring pride to a country that is carrying the flag, but it has a lot of challenges and complications. In the past, we had Zambia Airways which is currently defunct for reasons that are very simple and straightforward. There was a lot of mismanagement, technical challenges as well as very little and cutthroat business. As a result, our beloved national airline went under. Before we can think of analysing what caused the failure, we are thinking of coming up with a new national carrier. I have information that the current Government and one hon. Minister in-charge has announced the Government’s intentions to revive Zambia Airways. I think that this is ill-advised because, unless we have gone deep to understudy what happened, we should desist from going the same way again.

Sir, we know that airlines are very expensive ventures world over. South African Airways (SAA), which is one of the biggest airlines in Africa, is currently undergoing a lot of difficulties. Last year, it had to be bailed out by the Republic of South Africa to a tune of 5 billion Rands just to keep it afloat and there is no indication of it hitting profitability.

Also, a total of US$188 million was spent on Air Zimbabwe last year to keep it afloat, but all of us know that the airline is not doing very well. I would like to urge the Government not to look at reviving Zambia Airways as a way of encouraging and improving the tourism sector but, rather, improving on the cost structure which actually excites and invites tourists to a country. It is the level or price of a variety of services and facilities available that encourage tourists to visit a country. It would, therefore, be in our best interest, as a country, to look at this rather than re-introduce Zambia Airways.

 Currently, Sir, the vacuum that has been left by Zambia Airways has, to some extent, been filled by private entrepreneurs. The coming in of the Government will chase away the private entrepreneurs, and yet the way forward in modern economies is to encourage private entrepreneurs to undertake ventures that are costly because they are conscious of costing. The Government was not conscious of costing, and this is why Zambia Airways went under. The airline was given a lot of incentives and preferential treatment by the Government and it still went under. It is, therefore, very important for this Government to desist from hallucinations and thoughts of bringing back Zambia Airways as a solution to the problem of tourism in this country. 

Mr Speaker, I would like to advise the Government to, instead, use local entrepreneurs in this field and, maybe, converse with international airlines in an effort to address the problem of  direct flights for tourists to Zambia. The Government can make concessions with these airlines so as to prevent the problem of non-direct flights to Zambia that has been mentioned in the report. In fact, this is a fallacy because there are a lot of direct airlines such as Emirates, Kenyan Airways and Air Zimbabwe which we can get into discussions with. With these airlines, we should be able to have more tourists coming to Zambia.

Mr Speaker, with these few words, I would like to support your Committee’s Report.

I thank you, Sir. {mospagebreak}

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo (Chongwe): Mr Speaker, I just want to commend your Committee on Lands, Environment and Tourism for a well-detailed report on tourism.

Mr Speaker, I think that Zambians must learn to commend the Government when a job has been well done.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: I am not basing these comments on the report, but on what one of the speakers, Hon. Dr Kaingu, hon. Member of Parliament for Mwandi, said, especially that he was once Minister of Tourism.

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Bring-Gen. Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, I am grateful for granting me the opportunity to raise a point of order.

Sir, is the hon. Member of Parliament for Chongwe in order to start discussing individuals in this House? I thought there was a general rule that we are not supposed to discuss each other in this House. Is she in order to debate along that line? I need your serious ruling.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

It is true that the general rule is that we do not discuss ourselves. When she made reference to what the hon. Member for Mwandi had said, I believe it was in the context of the fact that the hon. Member for Mwandi also began to talk about what the then hon. Minister of Tourism had done. I, therefore, think that will square up for the time being.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker, I was saying that it is important that when work has been done efficiently, it is cardinal to acknowledge that. If there is a mistake, it is equally important to point it out. Therefore, as Zambians, we must learn to commend the Government of the day when it does something good.

Sir, it is on record that the co-hosting of the 20th Session of UNWTO General Assembly by Zambia and Zimbabwe was the best for the UNWTO since its inception.

Therefore, considering that it was the first time Zambia was hosting a big event in the tourism sector, we would be doing ourselves, as a country, a disservice by standing on an important platform such as the Floor of this House and insinuate that Zambia did do not do as much as Zimbabwe.

Sir, it would also be a disadvantage to us, as a country, to give misleading information on issues of financing the UNWTO General Assembly. I, therefore, do not want to stand here and compare Zambia to Zimbabwe in terms of finances because the two countries co-hosted the conference. Suffice it to say that, as a country, Zambia did budget adequately. The Ministry of Finance released the resources on time. Therefore, the statements being made on the Floor of the House that Zimbabwe had more money than Zambia towards the hosting of the UNWTO General Assembly are not correct.

Sir, on a number of occasions, the Ministry of Tourism and Art mentioned on the Floor of this House how much money was released to the various sector ministries. In addition, on several occasions, both Ministers in charge of tourism for Zambia and Zimbabwe made public statements on how prepared both countries were.

Sir, with regard to the issue of infrastructure, I would like to remind the House that the then hon. Minister, on the Floor of this House, talked about what Zambia had done in preparation for the conference in comparison with Zimbabwe. You will recall that the conference was co-hosted by the two countries and, therefore, some of the preparations were almost the same.

Sir, as regards the structures that were constructed both in Zambia and Zimbabwe, I would like to state that they were both similar. There was also a tent or what we are referring to as a dome or marquee in Zimbabwe.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: In fact, that was the correct name. They were both marquees. The only difference was the cost element.

Sir, you will also recall that the then hon. Minister in charge of tourism talked about the procurement process on the Floor of this House and that we had paid more than our colleagues for the marquee. The structures were the same both in Zambia and Zimbabwe. The Secretary General of the United Nations (UN) gave both countries a go ahead to host the UNWTO General Assembly because they were both ready for the event. Therefore, it is not wise to come to this House and start saying that Zambia had a marquee while Zimbabwe had a permanent structure …

Mr Lufuma: On a point of order Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

 Mr Lufuma: Mr Speaker, …

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

Since the time is 1615 hours, your point of order has lapsed.

Laughter

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the Chair]

Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker, before business was suspended, I was saying that, as a country, it is important that we give ourselves credit, especially when …

Mr Lufuma: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: May the hon. Member for Chongwe continue.

Laughter

Mrs Masebo: Sir, as a country, we must always commend ourselves and ensure that …

Dr Kaingu: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson:  I have not indicated who should raise a point of order.

A point of order is raised.

Laughter

Dr Kaingu: Mr Speaker, we are debating your Committee’s Report which has clearly stated that the resources for the UNWTO General Assembly were released late. There is empirical evidence to that effect in this report. Is the hon. Member for Chongwe, therefore, in order to say that the money for the UNWTO General Assembly was released on time when your report does not say so. Is she in order? I need your serious ruling.

The Deputy Chairperson: The serious ruling is that the hon. Member for Chongwe is still debating.  Maybe, she will come to that point later should it be necessary.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker, before I was disturbed by my younger brother, the hon. Member for Mwandi, I was saying that it is important that we, as a country, have a positive outlook towards issues for the country to move forward.

Mr Speaker, the point I was making was simply that the UNWTO commended the organisers, not once, but several times, for successfully hosting the conference. From now onwards, every tourism conference will be preceded by commendations of Zambia and Zimbabwe for successfully hosting the UNWTO General Assembly. So, we must always ride on the success made by the Zambian Government and the country at large.

Sir, my second point is that the fact that Zambia co-hosted the conference with Zimbabwe meant that the presidency of the UNWTO had to be handed over to Zambia and Zimbabwe jointly. So, currently, the Ministers of Tourism and Art for Zambia and Zimbabwe are co-presidents of the UNWTO until it is handed over to Colombia which will host the 21st Session of the UNWTO General Assembly. It is not true that Zimbabwe has been given the presidency and not Zambia.

Mr Miyanda: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Miyanda: Mr Speaker, I apologise to the hon. Member who is on the Floor for disrupting her debate, but my point of order is compelling. Time and again, you have ruled and emphasised the importance of the Executive being present in the House. I do not know whether it is a case of, “when the cat is away, the mice play at home.”

Is the Executive in order to reduce this House to a mere handful, four to be specific, out of over twenty Cabinet Ministers in this House? Are they in order, Sir?

Mr Muntanga: Jean is also not here.

Mr Miyanda: Sir, I seek your serious ruling.

The Deputy Chairperson: The serious ruling is that we have a quorum. So, business continues.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker, before the point of order was raised, I was saying that the UNTWO presidency is held jointly by Zambia and Zimbabwe’s Ministers of Tourism and Art. It was also said that Zambia had a marquee while Zimbabwe did not put one up. The correct position is that both countries had marquees. The only difference is that our colleagues paid slightly less than we did for the structure. However, those issues were brought to the attention of the House and appropriate steps were taken to ensure that we did our best.

Mr Speaker, on the issue of capacity, I agree with your Committee that a lot of work needs to be done. However, I would like to say that Zambia has now built capacity at all levels. I am quite confident that a number of functions being hosted by sector ministries are of a high standard. Zambia is becoming good at hosting mega international conferences. For instance, if you look at the conferences that have been held by the Ministries of Youth and Sport; Health; Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education; and Transport, Works, Supply and Communication, you will see that Zambia is now maintaining very high standards both locally and internationally. So, as a country, we need to be futuristic, positive and objective and not shoot ourselves in the foot. Zimbabwe is saying that Zambia did very well and that without Zambia, it would not have managed to successfully host the conference. The two countries worked very well by supporting each other.

Mr Speaker, we need to carry out continuous advertising. Costly as it may be, it is necessary. I think advertising should be done by all of us in different ways. When other sector ministries have functions which are not tourism-related, they can still work with the Ministry of Tourism and Art to advertise the Victoria Falls. For example, if the Ministry of Youth and Sport has sports activities, it can advertise the Victoria Falls and not just leave that responsibility to the Ministry of Tourism and Art alone. I am cognisant of the fact that advertising is very expensive and so money might not be readily available due to the many challenges the country has. However, my appeal is that all sector ministries must coordinate with the marketing wing of the Ministry of Tourism and Art, which is the Zambia Tourism Board, by getting materials and using them to advertise the Victoria Falls.

Sir, the other issue that your report highlighted was that of land. As you know, there is no land in Lusaka now and, if there is any, then it is only in Chongwe. Those of us from Chongwe have a lot of problems relating to the allocation of land. However, I am very happy that the Ministry of Home Affairs has taken a very strong stance on the illegalities in land allocation. The Ministry of Local Government and Housing has also taken a similar stance by saying that we, as a country, should not condone illegalities in land alienation or allocation. Otherwise, that is going to boomerang, especially on us in the Government. It is important for us to allow the local authorities to continue acting as agents of the Central Government on matters relating to land. The Ministry of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection must allow the local authorities to identify the land, get it surveyed, advertise it and make the recommendations to the ministry on the possible successful applicants for land.

Sir, the Ministry of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection has the last say. However, I think it needs to get back to ensuring that the local authorities advertise, interview and recommend who should get the land as was the case in the past. This way, when a problem arises at the lower level, the Ministry of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection can come in to assist the local authorities by way of correcting any mistakes that could have been made by the Ministry of Local Government and Housing through the local councils. What we are seeing now is that the Ministry of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection has taken over the responsibility of the councils and creating problems for the local authorities when it should have been the other way round.

Sir, I would like to make an earnest appeal to the hon. Minister of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection in whom I have confidence because he is a no-nonsense man …

Interruptions

Mrs Masebo: … of integrity, experienced and very mature to allow his ministry to be the principal and the local authorities to do the advertising and proposals for land allocation. Local authorities do not allocate land, they just make proposals and recommendations to the Ministry of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection which, in turn, makes the final decision. For example, in Chongwe, it is us who know what the situation on the ground is. We are the ones who are supposed to be advising the Ministry of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection what the situation on the ground is with regard to issues relating to land. What we are seeing at the moment is that the Ministry of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection gives titles to people who have applied for land directly to them. When someone goes to the piece of land that he/she has obtained title for and finds people there, he/she calls them squatters. There are no squatters in Chongwe. The people living there have been there from time immemorial. If the Government decides to allocate any piece of land, be it State or traditional land, it is necessary to come to the council which will advertise that piece of land that the Government has decided to give out. That way, the council will participate fully.

Sir, I hope I have made myself clear and that the working hon. Minister will take my contribution seriously. This is because there are a lot of problems on the ground and people are producing fake documents purporting that they are from the Ministry of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection. This is so because, sometimes, the ministry, deals with these issues without going through the local authorities. So, please, help us so that we, in turn, help you do your work without disruptions.

I thank you, Sir.

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo (Mumbwa): Mr Speaker, I would like to thank you for giving me the opportunity to make a few remarks on the report of your Committee. Firstly, I would like to say that this is a well-researched and written report that has stated facts, as observed by your Committee. Secondly, quite a lot has been said about the hosting of the last UNWTO General Assembly. I think it is historical now that Zambia and Zimbabwe successfully hosted the conference. However, that is not to say that there were no challenges and difficulties.

Dr Kaingu: Hear, hear!

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo: As the report of your Committee indicates, it is clear that there were lapses in the tendering process, and I shudder to think of what would have happened if my younger sister was not on the ground.

Mr Livune: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Livune: Mr Speaker, I rise on a very serious point of order which is life threatening and requires the urgent intervention by the Government. Last week, the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC) told the nation that the University Teaching Hospital (UTH) has a long list of patients awaiting heart surgery. It seems this country has no heart surgeon. The Government had contracted one surgeon who only worked on five patients and has since left because of failure to agree on contractual obligations.

Sir, as we all know, the heart is an important organ of the body. Is the hon. Minister of Health, who is seated there comfortably, in order to remain silent without telling the nation what will happen as the situation is in need of attention? I need your serious ruling because I feel people’s lives are at risk.

The Deputy Chairperson: Since you asked for a serious ruling, here is one such serious ruling. Put in a question for urgent answer.

Laughter

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, before the point of order, I was just about to state that it is true that this conference was successfully held, but we must not run away, as your Committee has reported, from the fact that there were serious challenges in the coordination, funding and information flow between the various sub-committees. However, as I stated, this is not to take away the fact that had it not been for the hands-on young hon. Minister, perhaps, things would have been worse. Having said that, I would like to hear my younger sister, at least, one day, also commending us for doing something good, but she is usually silent.

Mr Speaker, I will confine my comments on your Committee’s Report to the Forestry Department. Your Committee has observed challenges ranging from human resource and materials to methods that are used or systems available in the management of our forestry. Being the Member of Parliament for Mumbwa Constituency, I really wonder when I see overloaded huge trucks carrying logs of timber from my neighbouring constituency, Kaoma. I think they even go beyond Kaoma. 

Sir, after reading through your Committee’s Report, I think the Executive must take urgent measures to ensure that we have a larger share of the revenues that are generated from our natural resources. For instance, out of the thirty-three concessions in the Western Province, twenty-three have been given to Zambians and ten to foreigners. Out of those ten, seven have been given to Chinese, two to South Africans and one to a German. However, I would not be surprised that the ten have gone beyond their allocation because they are well off financially. For instance, in the report, we see that in Kaoma, a local person has to wait for two years to get a licence but, for our friends, the foreigners, it takes less than two weeks. I do not know whether or not we can call them our friends. Anyway, they are friends because they are investing in our country. I would like the hon. Minister to explain this disparity. There is a glaring anomaly before our eyes. If we cannot put systems in place in order to empower local people to benefit from their natural resources, then, who will? This report provides the mechanism or way in which this can be done.

Mr Speaker, looking back, we can see that the abolition of the position of forest ranger and guard has led to a shortage of human resource in the Forestry Department. The situation is so serious that if it goes uncorrected, in the next two to four years, we will have serious problems of climate change. I discussed this issue with the hon. Minister of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection.

Sir, why should we get a loan in order to clean up what has been left by others in terms of the assault of the ozone layer? We are very insignificant contributors to pollution which affects our climate, but then we go and get a loan that we shall pay back with interest for the acts which are not of our making. Your Committee’s Report provides an opportunity for us to strengthen our systems. We must, at least, preserve that which we have and ensure that it benefits the local people.

Mr Speaker, your Committee’s Report states that even pricing for our timber is done elsewhere like is the case for metals at the London Metal Exchange (LME). Surely, it is time we started setting prices for our timber. If that happens, I am sure we will be able to earn more than the K3.2 million which was earned from the Western Province. That is one sure way of diversifying our economy from the mines.

Mr Speaker, the legal system is there. It is just a matter of implementation as has been stated by the mover of this Motion. Let us just implement the existing Government policies. On the other hand, it is high time we stopped blaming our predecessors and asking them what they did about every situation.  That is history. The ones responsible are those in office at the moment. Therefore, they need to do what is necessary for our people and make a difference. They have to add onto what others left behind.

Mr Speaker, let me end by observing that the recommendations here take into account the medium term and long-term benefits that we can accrue from our forests. There has to be coordination between the need for agriculture and the preservation of our forests. We have to clear land for agricultural purposes, but we have seen what has happened with intensive agricultural activities when large tracts of land are cleared. Surely, here is an opportunity where tree planting would be most welcome.

Mr Speaker, in this House, we were promised thousands of seedlings to plant in our constituencies. That is something that was just talked about. When we inquired, we were told that we had to wait and, now, one-and-half years have passed.

Mr Speaker, we are ready to correct what the exploiters, our friends, have done by planting trees in the areas where there is deforestation. If we did that, then, we would have contributed more meaningfully to the carbon dioxide bank. All this information is in your Committee’s Report.

Mr Speaker, let me end by stating that the Ministry of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection has to utilise its vantage position by working with traditional leaders because if we have to succeed, we need to bring on board traditional leaders and their communities, being custodians of natural resources, to assist in the conservation and preservation of our forests.

Mr Speaker, it is important that we do that because the benefits, as has been stated, are many, not only in terms of energy, but also food and, most importantly, the medicines that we get from the various trees and plants in our country.

Mr Speaker, I would like to end by supporting your Committee’s Report and hope that the Executive will implement these important recommendations.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection (Mr Kapeya): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving this opportunity to make some observations on the issues raised by Members of your Committee.

Firstly, allow me to commend your Committee for bringing out very important issues in their report, especially those relating to forests. Sir, the forest sub-sector in Zambia plays an important role in people’s livelihoods as major sources of timber, traditional medicines, wood, fuel, food and building materials as correctly highlighted by the hon. Member for Mumbwa. Furthermore, forests contribute to the enhancement of carbon stocks and the maintenance of the hydrological cycle. The Government is aware of the important role of forests, hence it is putting in place measures that will ensure sustainable utilisation of forests and forest products.

Mr Speaker, I would like to inform this august House that the Government is making steady progress in addressing the challenges impeding the effective administration and management of forests and forest reserves. To this effect, the PF Government will be presenting the Forest Bill to this House later this year. The new legislation will address the deficiencies of the 1973 Forest Act and the non ‘operalisation’ …

Mr Mwale: Ni chizungu icho?

Mr Kapeya: Iwe!

Laughter

Mr Kapeya: … ‘operalisation’ of the …

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Continue. We appreciate mother tongue interference.

Laughter

Mr Kapeya: Please, you have heard what Mr Speaker has said.

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Minister, please, continue.

Laughter

Mr Kapeya: … the activities and methods that were brought up in the 1999 Forest Act by among other things, providing for private sector and community participation in sustainable forest management. The new legislation further provides for the reorganisation and restructuring of the Forestry Department in order to make it much more responsive to the needs of the general public through enhanced service delivery.

Mr Speaker, I also wish to inform this august House that the Government is in the process of revising the National Forestry Policy that seeks to take into account new and emerging issues, including the adverse effects of climate change, the participation of the private sector, non-governmental organisations (NGOs) and the local community and other stakeholders.

Sir, the Forest Policy and Forest Bill provide for the benefit sharing mechanism that focuses on local communities. It is very important that all Members of Parliament come on board to ensure that we protect our forests.

Sir, let me bring to the attention of the hon. Members of Parliament the fact that it is our thinking, as Ministry of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection, that if our forests are carefully nurtured, one day, half of the National Budget can be funded by our forests. Certain countries where some of your hon. Members of Parliament have been to, derive their national budgets purely from their forests. For example, the State of Oregon in the United States of America, Finland and many other countries depend on their forests. We should be mindful, as Zambians, of the fact that, one day, the copper that we depend on will no longer be there. Therefore, let us nurture our forests and ensure that they are the second national asset in the provision of wealth to this country.

Mr Speaker, in 1997, the Government did away with the position of forest rangers. It is our wish, as your Committee recommends, that we bring back this position. Transport is also another problem that we are looking into. Once again, I must commend your Committee for visiting our offices to verify certain issues that they came across, especially in the Forestry Department. I commend the Chairperson of your Committee for that. If all of us worked liked your Committee, this country would have gone ‘far away’.

Mr Belemu: Very far away?

Laughter

Mr Kapeya: Let us verify issues that we come across like what your Committee did.

Mr Speaker, finally, the destruction of our forests has reached an alarming stage. It is only a few legal traders who are following the laid-down procedure. The rest are illegal traders. We are working out new measures and systems to protect our forests. It is up to you, hon. Members of Parliament, to come on board and work with your ministry to protect our forests.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

The Minister of Tourism and Art (Ms Kapata): Mr Speaker, from the outset, allow me to thank your Committee on the good report that was presented to this House.

Sir, the Ministry of Tourism and Art is doing everything possible to ensure that projects, which have not been completed, are worked on as per planned time frame. To this effect, a team of technical officers from the Planning and Information Department is on a monitoring and evaluation exercise to Livingstone and Western Province to check on the progress made towards the rehabilitation of some infrastructure, namely the construction of two ablution blocks located at the city council premises and the Mukuni Park, respectively; the rehabilitation of township roads; the construction of the bus terminus at villa grounds and the construction of the ultra modern markets, among other projects. The objective is to engage the contractors of these works and chart the way forward.

Mr Speaker, it is true that the benefits of co-hosting the UNWTO General Assembly should not only concentrate on infrastructure development, but trickle down to the ordinary people in terms of improving their livelihoods. To this effect, under the creative industry sub-sector, the rehabilitation of the Maramba Cultural Village, and the construction of the Mwandi Cultural Village and the Mafungausi Cultural Village in the Lower Zambezi were meant to provide an opportunity for the artists and artisans to showcase and sell their Zambian products such as curios and other works to both the local and international tourists. By so doing, they would have earned themselves some income. It is also the Government’s intention to ensure that these artisans acquire some basic training in quality control, marketing and pricing in order to effectively attract customers.

Mr Speaker, I would now like to respond to some of the comments that I heard this afternoon during the debate of your report. Among them was the issue of the one-stop shop which was built in Livingstone. I would like to assure this august House that it has been completed and is functional. I was there this morning and it is effectively functional and all the departments are working.

As regards the uni-visa, which is between Zambia and Zimbabwe, officials from both the Ministries of Tourism and Art, and Home Affairs are working with their counterparts in Zimbabwe on the modalities of how it is going to work for the two countries. If it is successful, it will then be extended into what we call the Kavango-Zambezi Trans-frontier Conservation Area (KAZA) which covers five countries, namely Angola, Mozambique, Namibia, Zambia and Zimbabwe. If it works effectively, the uni-visa will be extended to SADC nations. Once that is done, we will be able to package destinations together as SADC nations, whereby tourists will come to Zambia and be able to visit one or two other countries within the region without applying for a visa. This is in process.

Mr Speaker, the Regional Tourism Organisation for Southern Africa (RETOSA) came about so that SADC nations are able to market their tourist sites together as a bloc. This was done by Heads of State. Therefore, I want to emphasise that hon. Ministers of Tourism have no right to dissolve RETOSA. It was created by our Presidents. We can only recommend findings to the Presidents. As at last week during a SADC meeting, it was agreed that RETOSA continues.

Further, Mr Speaker, I also want to emphasise the fact that Zambia, being the current Chairperson for RETOSA, could not participate in the decision-making.

Mr Speaker, I was privileged today to have an aerial view of Livingstone. The roads have been constructed. So, people who are saying that the roads in Livingstone have not been worked on should take a drive into the Livingstone townships and see the roads that have been worked on because of the UNWTO General Assembly. The roads are there and …

Hon. UPND Member: With potholes?

Ms Kapata: … you can go and see them.

Mr Speaker, someone commented on the UNWTO General Assembly and the cultural centre. Yes, the cultural centre is there, but we have problems between the community and ourselves. The community wants the cultural centre to be built inside and not outside Mwandi District. Therefore, our ministry and the chiefdom, through His Royal Highness Inyambo Yeta, are sitting at the round table to see how best we can sort out the issue of the cultural centre.

Dr Kaingu: What about the hon. Member of Parliament?

Ms Kapata: Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Prof. Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, allow me to thank all the hon. Members on both your left and right for the vibrant debate of your report and the overwhelming support.

I thank you, Sir.

Question put and agreed to.

REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE ON COMMUNICATIONS, TRANSPORT, WORKS AND SUPPLY

Mr Simbao (Senga Hill): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do adopt the Report of the Committee on Communications, Transport, Works and Supply for the Third Session of the Eleventh National Assembly laid on the Table of the House on 18th June, 2014.

The Deputy Chairperson: Is the Motion seconded?

Mr Chabala (Kankoyo): Mr Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, the report dwells on three major issues. Firstly, it presents details of the study your Committee undertook on the public-private-partnerships (PPPs) in infrastructure development in Zambia. Secondly, it discusses the state of railway infrastructure in Zambia and, thirdly, it shows the reaction of your Committee to responses that the Executive gave on recommendations that your previous Committee on Communications, Transport, Works and Supply made.

Mr Speaker, let me now present a summary of the major issues in the report, beginning with the first topical issue on the PPPs in infrastructure development in Zambia.

Mr Speaker, in carrying out the study, your Committee considered both oral and written submissions from stakeholders. It also toured three projects in Lusaka, Copperbelt and Muchinga provinces.

Mr Speaker, one issue that has come out of this study is that there is a lack of clear guidelines and regulations for contracting authorities and the private sector in the implementation of PPPs in Zambia. Further, it has been noted that the periods for the PPPs are too long and most Government officers do not have sufficient knowledge, ability, skills and time to manage the PPP project cycle. For example, the build, operate and transfer (BOT) type of PPP agreement between the Government and China Hainan Zambia Limited for the sixty-five years at Luburma Market is questionable and unacceptable. Arising from its tour of Luburma Market, your Committee is concerned with the state of infrastructure as the building may depreciate to a negative amount by the end of the agreement period. It is further concerned by the lack of supervision by the Government in ensuring that periodic maintenance is carried out on the infrastructure. It is also worrying that no one in the client ministry, the Ministry of Local Government and Housing, seems to know how much the concessionaire has collected to date and efforts to obtain information from the concessionaire proved futile. This state of affairs is of concern to your Committee. Therefore, it strongly recommends that the Government seriously and expeditiously explores options of re-negotiating the agreement, as indications are that the concessionaire may have already recouped his investment which is estimated at about K9.8 million.

Mr Speaker, let me comment on the topical issue of the state of the railway infrastructure in Zambia. Your Committee considered oral and written submissions from stakeholders and further toured the railway infrastructure in Lusaka, Central, Copperbelt, Muchinga and the Eastern provinces.

Mr Speaker, your Committee also observes that the current Public Private Partnership Act of 2009 has lacunas which have contributed to the challenges being faced. It, therefore, urges the Government to consider reviewing it as a matter of urgency.

Mr Speaker, one of the key findings of your Committee during its tour of the Zambia Railways Limited (ZRL) infrastructure was that 1,062 km of its railway network is in a poor state, resulting in trains having to move at a reduced speed of between 20 and 25 km per hour, which is far below the regional standard of 80 km per hour. It is alarming to note that a greater portion of the main line is still on rotten wooden sleepers and that there are only a few concrete sleepers. Even then, there are portions of the track with cracked concrete sleepers that are a danger to the travelling public.

Mr Speaker, your Committee noted that labour-intensive methods are being used to rehabilitate the track. It was, however, further noted that standards of work are not observed, as almost everything is done manually. While it is appreciated that rehabilitation of the ZRL infrastructure started in 2013 following the injection of the US$120 million from the Eurobond, your Committee observed a number of shortcomings that need to be addressed. Allow me to elaborate further on the shortcomings.

Mr Speaker, there is inadequate supply of materials for railway track rehabilitation. This is because the procurement is slow, particularly that most materials such as concrete sleeper fastenings, track tools, concrete sleepers and rails are all imported. Further, rehabilitated portions of the track are under threat due to high levels of vandalism. There is reduced life span of locomotives, rolling stock, plant machinery and equipment used in the maintenance of rolling stock due to age. Your Committee urges the Government to expedite the process of rehabilitation so as to improve the railway network and resuscitate railway transport whose usage has greatly declined over the past years. In view of this, your Committee urges the Government to ensure that railway workshops are recapitalised and that railway track materials are delivered on time to expedite the rehabilitation exercise. Your Committee further strongly recommends that the Government considers exploring ways and means of securing the infrastructure which is being vandalised by amending the Railway Act and the Penal Code applicable to stiffen punishments on vandalism. Your Committee further recommends that the Government ensures that modern machinery is used in the rehabilitation process to improve the standard of works.

Mr Speaker, allow me to briefly discuss the issue of staff. It was disheartening to learn that the Railway Systems of Zambia (RSZ) has not finished paying its workers their terminal benefits. This is affecting the workers negatively, most of whom are now working for the ZRL. The Government is urged to ensure that the outstanding terminal benefits owed to former RSZ workers are cleared expeditiously in order to boost their morale.

Mr Speaker, let me also briefly comment on the Tanzania-Zambia Railway Authority (TAZARA). Your Committee notes that there is a lack of motivation on the part of the management at TAZARA which is affecting its liquidity position. Your Committee is of the view that there is a need for the Zambian Government, in collaboration with the Tanzanian Government, to resolve the liquidity problems currently being faced. There is also a need to motivate top management at the authority either by changing personnel or recapitalising the company.

Mr Speaker, TAZARA has big business. There is no single individual or company in Zambia that has as much business as TAZARA. This is evidenced by the forty-five tonne trucks rolling into Zambia every day. TAZARA can easily transport 10 million metric tonnes of cargo per year. The railway line is new and is in a good condition. TAZARA has thirty-five good locomotives and ten of them are brand new.

Mr Speaker, the company is struggling to transport a paltry 200,000 metric tonnes of cargo per year when it can transport up to 10 million tonnes per year. As a result, TAZARA employees are four months in arrears, as they have not been paid for the last three months. Almost all their children are out of school because their parents cannot pay school fees. The workers are living on kaloba or lundalunda and they are now in debt …

The Deputy Chairperson: What does that mean?

Mr Simbao: Sir, it is a system of nkongole.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: What does that mean?

Hon. Member: What is nkongole?

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, they are living on debt. We were told that the people who have been loaning them money are now fed up because they are not able to pay back the money. The Government must seriously look into the issue of TAZARA or else the employees will be driven into immeasurable desperation.

Mr Speaker, TAZARA is a Zambian company that was set up to serve Zambia and not Tanzania. That is why the Chief Executive is Zambian. We must, therefore, do everything possible to see that TAZARA performs at high levels so that it can bring in cheaper goods for the ordinary Zambian. Everyone knows that railway freight is much cheaper than road freight. Unfortunately for Zambians, we are dancing to the Tanzanian tune of road freight and we have happily put aside TAZARA.

Sir, let me end with a comment on the Action-Taken Report. Your Committee would like to thank the Office of the Vice-President for ensuring that there was positive action on some of the recommendations of your previous Committee that led to their conclusion. However, there are a lot more outstanding issues which need urgent attention. Your Committee, therefore, urges His Honour the Vice-President, as Leader of Government Business in this august House, to impress upon all ministries to take on board the informed advice that Parliamentary Committees render to the Executive.

Sir, on behalf of the Members of your Committee, I wish to express my gratitude to you for the guidance that you rendered. Gratitude also goes to the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly for the procedural advice and other services that were provided to your Committee during its deliberations. Lastly, I wish to thank all stakeholders that made submissions to your Committee and those that accompanied it on the local tours.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move. {mospagebreak}

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Mr Chabala: Now, Sir.

Mr Speaker, I beg to second the Motion urging this august House to adopt the Report of the Committee on Communication, Transport, Works and Supply for the Third Session of the Eleventh National Assembly.

Sir, may I begin by commending the Government for the plans to rehabilitate railway infrastructure throughout the country. It is true that Zambians are looking forward to having modern infrastructure in the railway industry. At least, there is light at the end of the tunnel in that rehabilitation works by the ZRL that have been seen on railway lines throughout the country.

Mr Speaker, as much as we may desire to have railway infrastructure rehabilitated, we need to be systematic in the way we implement it along with other plans. One area of concern to your Committee is encroachments along the railway lines. You may be aware that there are numerous encroachments along the Zambia Railway Line and illegal settlements on the railway reserve and land, thereby leading to a lot of vandalism and thefts. Further, most of these encroachments have also contributed to the unsafe condition of the railway line. In some sections, it is being used as a garbage dumpsite for miners of gravel and sand as well as trading on the railway track.

Mr Speaker, your Committee saw traders in the Kamwala area removing their merchandise to allow the train or locomotive to pass after which the merchandise is put back on the railway line. Your Committee observes that it is not safe to allow the status quo as it may lead to massive loss of lives in the case of accidents on the railway line. In addition, there are too many construction activities happening along the line of rail. Your Committee is saddened to learn that most of these settlers claim ownership of the land, as they have been granted title deeds through the local authorities.

Sir, the Government is strongly urged to ensure that the illegal settlers on the railway line reserve land are relocated and stiff penalties are enforced on anyone encroaching on the railway line, including those that are encouraging it.

Mr Speaker, allow me to inform this august House that the dream of having a railway line from Malawi to Zambia was conceived in 1972 and the railway station in Mchinji, Malawi was constructed in 1985 while the Chipata Railway Station was built on 1991. The railway line from Mchinji to Chipata was completed and commissioned in 2010 and the first ZRL train ran on the Chipata/Mchinji Railway Line recently on 23rd March, 2014. The total length to Nacala Port is 1,150 km by railway from Chipata.

Sir, let me further inform the House that the Central and East African Rail (CEAR), which signed an agreement with the ZRL to use the Chipata/Mchinji Railway Line is currently facing capacity challenges with regard to some of its sections. This entails that there is an opportunity for the ZRL to extend its network system further by pulling stock from the Port of Nacala and this forms part of the Zambia Railways Greenfield Projects.

Mr Speaker, the approximate kilometre coverage from Lusaka to the Port of Nacala is about 1,750 km compared to Dar-es-Salaam which is about 3,000 km and Durban which is over 2,500 km. With that comparison, the ZRL management proposes that the Nacala Corridor be the shortest distance to a port that Zambia would use to connect to the sea coast which, in turn, would reduce the cost of doing business. The bigger picture in all these efforts is to develop Zambia.

Sir, while looking at rehabilitation on one end, your Committee is of the view that it could be prudent to deal with the possibility of opening up the Nacala Corridor on the other end which may offer some hope to the ZRL and the railway industry as a whole in the improvement of the railway network as well as the creation of jobs in the country.

Mr Speaker, your Committee is, therefore, urging the Government to continue its recapitalisation programme to the ZRL, especially considering their Greenfield Project which can be an answer to the problems currently faced on the state of roads.

Sir, let me end by talking about the political involvement in the haulage business which has greatly hampered the development of the railway industry. Your Committee strongly urges the Government to ensure that the haulage business is de-politicised so that development which the Zambian people are eagerly waiting to see in this sector is seen. 

Mr Speaker, it cannot be over emphasised that having a good railway industry has the potential to boost the economy of this country. Railway transportation has a number of favourable characteristics compared to road transportation. It is six times more energy-efficient and four times more economical than road transportation. The social costs in terms of environmental damage or degradation are significantly lower in railway transportation.

Mr Speaker, the railway network helps to connect the industrial production centres with markets and sources of raw materials and facilitates industrial development. It also links agricultural production centres with distant markets. It provides rapid, reliable and cost-effective bulk transportation to the energy sector to transport agriculture, mining and petroleum products from refineries to consumption centres. It links places, enables large-scale, rapid and low-cost movement of people across the length and breadth of the country.

Sir, I have no doubt that the current administration has the capacity and will address the concerns that have been highlighted in your Committee’s Report.

Mr Speaker, may I also thank the Clerk and her staff and all witnesses that your Committee interacted with for supporting the work of your Committee.

Mr Speaker, I beg to second.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker, I will be very brief. Firstly, I want to commend your Committee for the work they have done. I would like to say that I appreciate the topic on the PPPs because it helps to bring development to any nation. This depends on how the structuring of the PPPs is done. Looking at a number of developments that are still required in Zambia, obviously, PPPs are the solution. I would, therefore, like to say that we have to be very careful about how to deal with the PPPs. For example, your Committee has already noticed one PPP between the Lusaka City Council and a Chinese Company to construct a market. Clearly, it was observed that the people involved did not have the capacity to negotiate effectively. That is how they ended up with the sixty-five year contract for a structure that may have not last that long.

Mr Speaker, whilst PPPs may be the answer, they have also created social unrest. When it comes to infrastructure in the area of water supply and sanitation, in some countries where PPPs have been entered into, there have been problems in the communities. This is due to the fact that there would be an increase in the charges for water bills. When this happens, the communities are not able to pay for the water. We agree that PPPs are good, but we have to be cautious when it comes to infrastructure related to social services such as water supply and sanitation, and roads. In some cases, transport charges may be so high that the ordinary people are not able to afford them. At least, for roads, it is not that bad. I am only worried about issues of water supply and sanitation because records have shown that countries that have gone into PPPs have ended up having social unrest amongst its people.

Mr Speaker, I think that the concept of PPPs is best for schools, hospitals, airports and housing in this country. I hope that the sector ministries such as the Ministries of Local Government and Housing, and Transport, Works, Supply and Communication that is dealing with issues of airports will consider the PPPs as an option for constructing houses and airports.

Sir, as a country, we need to have people who are specialised in negotiating. In Zambia, we seem to have a problem. Even just to procure simple equipment or services, civil servants are not good at negotiating. Sometimes, people wonder whether this is due to lack of exposure, corruption or they are just totally dull. You wonder how a person who has gone up to Form 5 can sit and negotiate a deal which even a Grade 5 pupil can see that there is something wrong with. I am sorry to say that at the moment, in this country, we do not have the calibre of civil servants that we can depend on as far as negotiations are concerned. We need to be very careful. At the moment, if we are going to allow PPPs to be handled by colleagues in some sectors, they will end up signing raw deals and we will be questioned for that.

Sir, I felt sad when your Committee made a recommendation on renegotiations of a market deal which was done fifteen years ago. This, even at that time, was a bad deal and the council was supposed to renegotiate it, but that never happened.

Sir, sometimes, you can say that it is due to corruption, but it could be that people are just not exposed enough. Some of these people have university degrees, but they are not exposed enough to know a building that can last forty years. When we decide to go into PPPs, let us make sure that we put up a team of men and women who are of high integrity, well-exposed and educated enough to handle negotiations. Otherwise, we will just end up lumbering our children and grandchildren with a burden of renegotiating deals that we are negotiating at the moment. It is better to remain traditional than to be modern and leave problems for our children.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker, in Zambia, when we hear of a concept that is working well somewhere, we like to talk a lot about it. I can give an example of PPPs. Everybody is talking about PPPs without really understanding the concept. They may not know that we have not reached that level of using PPs and that, maybe, certain things must be done first. Before entering into such deals, we must make sure that we have a team of negotiators so that we do not end up with raw deals. For example, fifteen years down the line, we are still crying about the contracts that were signed wrongly. Just recently, we were told that an investor was saying that he took us for a ride and paid very little for a mine. This tells you that we, as a country, do not have the capacity to negotiate for PPPs. We need to ensure that we train our people.

Sir, the other problem that we have is that we have put the PPP unit under a particular sector ministry. If that ministry is the one dealing with the negotiations, for example, for a hospital and it does not even understand anything about the hospital and how it operates, that brings about problems. If you are going to put up a convention centre and that ministry is not the one that is dealing with the issues of convections, the negotiations might not be correctly done. So, we have to train people who can negotiate issues of mining. We also have to train people to deal with issues of roads and it should be those people who understand road issues. You should not engage people just because they are professors or are degree holders.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: So, we need officers that are …

Interruptions

Mrs Masebo: Why are they making noise?

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, order!

Interruptions

Mrs Masebo: What is the story?

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, order!

The appreciation has been noted. Proceed hon. Member.

Laughter

Mrs Masebo: They are just fake, ‘your Honour’.

Laughter

Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker, I was saying that if, for example, you want to negotiate a deal on infrastructure that has to do with an airport, it is better that you get people that understand the aviation industry. Do not just get somebody because he/she is a director of chakuti and chakuti and, therefore, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Sorry, not chakuti, chakuti.

The Deputy Chairperson: Yes.

Mrs Masebo: Do not just get somebody who is a director of health and has a degree in medicine to negotiate a building that has to do with aviation because he might not understand anything. So, the point that I am making is that, at the moment, from my little experience, Zambia still needs to have experts that can negotiate for us so that those that will come after us will be able to appreciate the deals. I am just agreeing that the deal that we, as a Government, made fifteen years ago to give somebody a concession of sixty-five years for a market was wrong because …

The Deputy Chairperson: You have belaboured the point, hon. Member. Move on to another point.

Mrs Masebo: Thank you Mr Speaker.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker, we must also be specific on which areas we want a PPP. Even if we do not have money to put up, for example, a water plant in Chongwe, I would rather the Government borrows for the water supply or raises the money itself to put up that water supply. This is because the issue of water is a difficult issue. So, if you give Mr Patel and Mr Phiri, for instance, to put up that water plant in Chongwe, and they are not part of the Government and they say that it will take forty years to put up the water supply, the people of Chongwe will not be able to access that water because it will be very expensive for them. So, in my view, such infrastructure should be put up by the Government. The Government must not just agree when a donor comes and says that it will give it money for water supply, but it must be a PPP. This is because you will create problems for the local people in the long run.

Mr Speaker, lastly, I would like to commend your Committee for what it has said concerning the railway systems. The only point that I wanted to raise on that issue is that yes, railway transport is the cheapest, and I am glad that we are all speaking the same language that we need to develop that mode of transport. I am also happy to say that, at least, the PF Government has prioritised the rehabilitation and expansion of the railway system.  However, for this to come to fruition, there are serious issues that need to be addressed which your Committee has ably brought out. It requires the support of both the hon. Members on the right and the left to make sure that both sides of the railway line which, I think, is supposed to be 50 m, that is 25 m on either side, are free from any encroachment.

 Mr Speaker, over the decades, successive governments let people encroach the sides of railway line. We now have a challenge of removing these people from the encroached area if we are to rehabilitate and improve the railway system. This encroachment is not just in Lusaka, but also starts from the Southern Province to whereever it ends, especially in the big towns where people have put up shops and houses. I feel this is not going to be an easy exercise unless hon. Members, both on the right and left, reduce on the politicking and do what is right. We cannot have a country that has no railway system because people are politicking. I think that there are certain issues that we must agree on as a country …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: … and speak the same language. The problem I have with this country, especially with the men of Zambia, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: … is that there is too much …

Hon. Government Member: Politicking.

Mrs Masebo: … politicking and insincerity. Just because they may not be the ones in the Government, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: … they are not honest enough to state that this is wrong. As leaders, let us work together to correct the wrong for the good of the whole country.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker that is why you are seeing that Zambia’s development is slower than other countries in the region. Even smaller countries are developing at a faster rate than us because of too much politics in this country.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: I hope that in 2016, we will have fewer men in this Parliament than women.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: This is because …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: … this country is not developing on account of politics in some instances. This issue of encroachments along the railway line is a serious and dangerous issue. Unless we work together, this report of yours, Mr Speaker, will just be a talking-shop report. So, we need to put this report to fruition by both the right and the left working together on this matter.

 I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bwalya (Lupososhi): Mr Speaker, I have only a few issues that I want to raise …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bwalya: … for and on behalf of the people of Lupososhi Constituency in Luwingu District in the Republic of Zambia.

Mr Speaker, your report is cardinal and it brings out very important issues. I want to take part of the debate that has been raised by Hon. Masebo on the issues of encroachment as mine. However, I want to say that there is a cancer in this country …

Interruptions

Mr Bwalya: … of leaving things until it is too late to act upon them.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, on my left!

Mr Bwalya: Mr Speaker, we have had this issue of encroachments on the table for a long time. It has been taken in perpetuity by successive governments. It is time we worked on it and sensitised our people so that they refrain from building very close either to the railway line or roads.

 Mr Speaker, this is the same thing that is happening where we have houses demolished. When we see a compound coming up, we keep quiet and all we do is watch until it reaches an alarming stage and that is when we tend to leave people in the cold by demolishing their houses. So, I hope and trust that the hon. Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication will be able to embark on a very serious programme to ensure that all those that are along the line of rail and are very close to the railway line are moved away.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bwalya: Mr Speaker, these issues have been brought up in previous reports of your Committees and nobody has followed up to implement the recommendations that your Committees have made. This has contributed to the lamentations that we are being subjected to year in and year out. If the recommendations that are contained in your report, which we are debating today, are acted upon, I am sure next year’s report or other reports to come will be different and we will be talking about something else.

I, therefore, want to urge all of us in this House, especially the Executive, to look at the recommendations that have been put forward by the Committee and ensure that we implement those that are implementable and engage our colleagues in the Opposition for those that require negotiations and dialogue so that we chart the way forward.

Mr Ng’onga: Hammer!

Mr Bwalya: Mr Speaker, the other issue that I want to talk about is the recapitalisation of the ZRL which is very critical. This country has been spending a lot of money on repairing roads because heavy cargo is being transported by roads. We have burdened the already overburdened taxpayer to raise funds to ensure that we maintain the roads. If we recapitalise the ZRL, we will be able to save a lot of money that can go towards the development of the rural road network. The railways will carry the heavy cargo and we can save the roads and maintain them to last longer.

Mr Speaker, the PPPs are a very good policy. However, it appears that there is no well-defined policy direction on them. Governments have come and gone, but they have not given clear guidance for us to negotiate, like Hon. Masebo said.

The MMD Government had a policy that may not have been well-defined, but it is our time to define it and put in all the nitty-gritty required to ensure that this concept that is good for development works better. We can involve both the private and public sector in the development of good roads, railways and housing. This is working elsewhere.

This country is very good at formulating policies that have been copied by other countries who have implemented them well. I am sure that we can do better and come up with very clear guidelines with regard to how we can implement the PPP concept.

Mr Speaker, with these few words, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication and Chief Whip (Mr Mukanga): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to give clarification on some of the issues that have been highlighted in your Committee’s Report. First and foremost, I would like to commend your Committee for a very good report.

Mr Speaker, the railway industry is crucial to the development of this country. Currently, the Government is engaged in a very ambitious road project called the Link Zambia 8,000 km Road Project meant to construct and rehabilitate roads throughout the country. However, unless the railway industry or network is revamped, the investment that we are making in the road sector will be in vain.

Sir, we are aware of the fact that we need to invest in the railway industry. Up until December, 2003, the ZRL was a parastatal company. The company was privatised through a concession agreement signed with a private company called the RSZ. On 10th September, 2012, the PF Government, which is a working Government, rescinded this decision so that the people of Zambia could repossess the ZRL because we appreciated the need for us to have a proper working railway system. It was as a result of the general deterioration of the railway and rolling stock, the lack of recapitalisation for many years and the failure to meet the aspirations of the people of Zambia that the company was repossessed. The PF Government came into power and decided to invest in the railway system.

Interruptions

Mr Mukanga: Whether you like or not, it is working.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, the new ZRL is on course and we are working to improve the facilities by recapitalising it. We need to increase the speeds of the trains. The speed for the goods train will go up to 70 km/hr while the passengers train speed will be brought up to 80 km/hr. This can only be done through investment. We should be able to meet the target of 5 million tonnes per year in terms of freight by 2018.

Mr Speaker, the ZRL has thirty-seven locomotives. Twenty-four are active and thirteen undergoing rehabilitation. We have about 2,096 wagons and all things being equal, this Government will deliver what the people of Zambia want. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, I want to correct the impression that the ZRL has a route length of 1,062 km. The total route length is 1,410 km. From Victoria Falls Bridge to Kitwe, the length is 848 km. On the branch lines, we have a length of 214 km. In Mulobezi, the length is 162 km and the Mchinji/Chipata length is 24 km. If you know your mathematics and add these figures up, you should get 1,410 km.

We are looking at both the green and brown fields so that, at least, we can revamp the railway network in Zambia. The Government released a total of US$120 million for the rehabilitation of railway infrastructure and rolling stock broken down as follows; US$81.8 million for infrastructure and rehabilitation and US$38.3 for rolling stock.

Mr Speaker, the ZRL is doing all it can to rehabilitate the workshops because without those, it will be difficult for us to revamp the whole railway line. This is why I appreciate the report of your Committee because we need a revamped workshop for us to operate. We are currently doing a four-in-one in terms of slippers to ensure that they are replaced and the infrastructure continues to operate in a better way. The ZRL has the full support of the Government to fully rehabilitate its infrastructure. We are supporting its operations because the vision of the PF Government  is to …

Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Mukanga: … ensure that the people of Zambia are given the service that they want.

With regard to payment of gratuities for former the ZRL workers, we are doing all we can. If anything, the Government has put up a committee to accelerate the negotiations so that this process of paying out terminal benefits and gratuities is also accelerated. Therefore, all is being done.

Mr Speaker, people thought that there would be no proper train passing through Kamwala. It was quiet for many years and, because of this, people started encroaching. We want to work with everyone. I would like to use this opportunity to inform the people that the ZRL is here to stay and there will be a lot of expansion projects.  So, those that are encroaching should move out or else they will be doing this at their own expense.  We will be going round demolishing buildings that are close because we have the power to operate in that area. 

Sir, coming to the issue of PPPs, I would like to state that PPP operational strategy is the best mode of development. It is, therefore, important that we look at the structure properly and come up with proper regulations and conditions so that from day one, when the developer starts to operate, the Government can get some revenue from it to enable it to continue to check and monitor and also get the very best out of the investment. Lately, we have not done very well in this area. Therefore, as the PF Government, we are doing all we can and are renegotiating all these things. The issue of the market will be renegotiated so that we give the benefits to the people of our country.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

 Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, I would not like to continue talking because most the issues have been debated. I would, therefore, like to thank my sister and brother for their contributions and everybody who has supported this Motion.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members:  Hear, hear!

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, in winding up debate, I would like to thank all the debaters, particularly Hon. Masebo for being concerned with the Luburma Market. What is happening there is political. I would like to tell the hon. Minister that there are no records at the ministry because all the records are lost. Therefore, no one knows what was done and what will happen because there are no records. This is a very serious issue. Therefore, the hon. Minister must know that so that he approaches it with a different seriousness.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Question put and agreed to.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

 Do you find it difficult to control your mouths?

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

ADJOURNMENT
Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

________

The House adjourned at 1808 hours until 1430 hours on Thursday, 26th April, 2014.