Debates - Thursday, 26th June, 2014

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DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE THIRD SESSION OF THE ELEVENTH ASSEMBLY

Thursday, 26th June, 2013

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

______________

MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

KONKOLA COPPER MINES PLC

The Minister of Mines, Energy and Water Development (Mr Yaluma): Mr Speaker, before I deliver the ministerial statement, I just want to say that I hope you will bear with me because I have sprained my ankle as a result of my weight shedding exercise which I have been doing everyday.

Laughter

Mr Yaluma: Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to inform this august House and the public at large on the recent developments at Konkola Copper Mines (KCM) plc. The company has of late come under increasing public debate and media attention following the attempt by the company to lay off 1,529 employees last year. This is in addition to the media report on 15th May, 2014 in which Mr Anil Agarwal, the Chairman of Vedanta Resources Ltd, was quoted as having said that he is making US$500 million from KCM, a mine he bought for a song, just about US$25 million, and not the asking price of US$400 million. Therefore, I wish to take this opportunity to inform the House and, indeed, the nation at large on what the Government is doing with regard to the issues surrounding KCM.

Mr Speaker, KCM is currently the second largest copper producing company in Zambia and the Government, through the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines-Investment Holdings (ZCCM-IH), has 20 per cent shares in the company. It provides approximately 7,804 direct jobs and 9,549 indirect ones through contractors.

Following the announcement by KCM in September, 2013 to retrench 1,529 employees, the Government appointed a technical audit committee comprising experts in mineral resources management, mineral processing, governance, labour issues, mine engineering and business administration. All of the members of the team were competent Zambian nationals. The task of the team was to audit the operations of KCM to enable the Government have a proper understanding of the performance of the company across the entire value chain, which is from exploration, mining, processing (concentrating and smelting), marketing and sales.

Mr Speaker, contrary to the assertion by KCM that the proposed retrenchments were necessitated by the plant mechanisation of the mining methods, the audit established that there was no plan linking the two. Therefore, the problem was the mismanagement of the business and the following were some of the findings from the audit:

(a) Threat of Insolvency

As at 30th September, 2013, KCM’s total liabilities of US$1.6 billion exceeded the current assets by US$123 million. As a consequence, KCM was unable to meet its obligations as they fell due. The liabilities included bank loans, bills from local and foreign suppliers and contractors, ZCCM-IH copper and cobalt price participation and outstanding bank guarantees to cover environmental liabilities for its mining operations;

(b) High Turnover of Chief Executive Officers and High Exodus of Skilled Zambian Professionals and Poor Corporate Governance

KCM had parallel management structures where the chief executive officer dealt with an advisory council board on one hand and management on the other hand;

(c) Non-compliance to the Commitment to Bring in Foreign Direct Investment(FDI)
 
Vedanta Resources Plc has to-date not complied with its commitment to inject US$357 million into KCM as FDI. Instead, funds generated within KCM, which in a normal operation would be used for operations, were diverted to finance capital projects. As a result, current operations were starved of the necessary maintenance funding. From the time Vedanta Resources plc acquired KCM, US$2.8 billion composed of internally-generated funds and bank loans was injected in capital projects which included the Konkola Deep Mining Project (KDMP), concentrator expansion at Konkola Mine and the new concentrator and smelter at Nchanga Mine;

(d) Lack of Investment to Develop New Ore Sources and Provide Adequate and Sustainable Feed for the Efficient and Cost Effective Running of the Processing Facilities

The commissioning of the KDMP has been delayed by seven years, mainly due to design changes. This has not only resulted in the increased cost of sinking the shaft and the development of the ore sources, but also the loss of 4 million tonnes of ore anticipated per annum in the past five years;

(e) Failure to Adopt Cost Effective Means of Production

The sub-contracting of all mining activities by KCM resulted in the high cost of doing business, rendering the company almost insolvent. In addition, due to dependence on contractors, KCM could not purchase or maintain its own equipment. Consequently, any pull-out of a contractor meant suspension of mining activities; and

(f) Lack of A Strategic Survival Business Plan In Spite of the Financial Crisis the Company was Faced with

Mr Speaker, in view of the findings, the audit team recommended that the Government should not take over KCM as doing so would mean nationalisation, which would be against the Government’s policy of having a private sector-driven economy. This could also have a negative impact on the investment environment in Zambia. The Government should ensure that Vedanta Resources plc injects the required funds into KCM to avoid liquidation and job losses.

Mr Speaker, following the submission of the audit report, the Government engaged Vedanta Resources plc shareholders to find ways of steering the company out of the desperate situation. Through this dialogue, a business plan to improve the performance of KCM was developed and agreed upon by both parties. The plan included the following:

(i) increased production from 132 318 tonnes of finished copper in 2013, to 178 994 tonnes by 2017. To achieve this, the company committed to inject US$250 million into production and US$ 30 million into smelter operations to improve the flow of concentrates;

(ii) commitment by Vedanta Resources Plc to provide a bank guarantee of US$400 million towards the outstanding loans that KCM had on its books;

(iii) settlement of the overdue credit balance owed to its suppliers and contractors amounting to US$111million; and
 
(iv) restarting production at the closed open pits by procuring its own equipment.

Mr Speaker, the Government’s intervention in KCM’s operations secured the jobs of our own people. KCM gave an undertaking that there will be no redundancies as a result of the implementation of the business plan.

Mr Speaker, the Government is committed to ensuring that KCM meets its obligations of recapitalising the mine as well as paying off its debts to lenders, suppliers and contractors including concentrate suppliers. As a result of the commitment by Vedanta Resources Plc to settle the overdue credit balance owed to its suppliers and contractors amounting to US$111 million, US$52 million has been paid out so far. The Government is monitoring the performance of KCM through quarterly progress reports to ensure the implementation of the business plan to the letter. Through the quarterly reports and random checks, we will be able to pick up any undertaking by the company that is not in the best interests of this nation.

Mr Speaker, with regards to media reports on the statement by Vedanta Resources plc Chairman, Mr Anil Agarwal, I wish to inform this august House that, a forensic audit initiated by His Honour the Vice-President is under way through the Zambia Revenue Authority which falls under the Ministry of Finance.

Mr Speaker, instead of rushing to resolve the issue surrounding KCM through nationalisation, the Government has decided to engage KCM to ensure that the operations are turned around for the company to become viable once again. I wish to remind this august House that, the Government policy on mining still remains that of encouraging the development of a private led mining industry where its role is to create an enabling environment for investment that creates mutual benefits for the country and the investor. Therefore, reacting to issues at KCM by nationalising it would be sending wrong signals to potential investors that the policy environment in Zambia is unstable. This would make this highly favoured country less attractive to investment.

Mr Speaker, in conclusion, I wish to state that the Government values the investment by the private sector in Zambia’s mining industry and economy at large. Investors are important in the development process of this country and, as such, we will endeavour to dialogue with them in order to resolve any issues affecting their businesses. However, the Government shall penalise any fraudulent mining company in order to prevent the loss of the much-needed revenue and to save jobs. The Government will be undertaking similar audits at all the mines to ensure compliance and avoid the recurrence of the situation as at KCM.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the ministerial statement which has been delivered by the hon. Minister of Mines, Energy and Water Development.

Mr Konga (Chavuma): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister, in his statement, indicated that Vedanta Resources plc was tasked to get a bank guarantee of US$400 million. Has that guarantee been obtained by Vedanta Resources plc and did the Government have access to it?

Mr Yaluma: Mr Speaker, the US$400 million guarantee has been secured and is already being utilised. Our role as the Government was simply to ensure that Vedanta Resources plc obtained the guarantee. We were not supposed to have access to it. As I am speaking to you right now, US$250 million has been accessed.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mwila (Chipili): Mr Speaker, I just want to find out from the hon. Minister whether KCM will be able to inject the US$ 250 million into the operations of the mine since they have failed to run it.

Mr Yaluma: Mr Speaker, KCM has already done that. It has already pumped in US$120 million into the operations of the mine. For the US$120 million, the company has a grace period of a one year moratorium. During that period, the company will not pay back anything. It also has a roll-over of another US$100 million which takes the total amount of money which has been invested in the mine to US$220 million. The information I am giving here is very current. It is not delayed information of last month or whatever. It is for this very quarter in which we are.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Lufuma (Kabompo West): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister said that nationalising KCM would be sending wrong signals to would-be investors. By not taking punitive measures against KCM and the investor that we are talking about, would we still not be sending wrong signals to investors?

Mr Yaluma: Mr Speaker, firstly, I would like to just put it on record that we are not here to just punish the investor. We are here to ensure that the investor is brought back in line and starts performing accordingly because the mine plays a critical role in our economy. Auditing the company and committing it to a very tight programme with targets set, which it is meeting right now, is punishment on its own. The forensic audits we are taking are intended to ensure that no mine behave recklessly like had happened in the case of KCM.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Ms Namugala (Mafinga): Mr Speaker, foreign investors have continued to have access to incentives that are bestowed on them based on pledges that they make regarding the FDI. As the hon. Minister has indicated in the case of KCM, the US$360 million FDI pledged has not come. I want to find out from the hon. Minister, especially that the Government has 20 per cent shareholding in KCM, why this situation has been allowed and when this forensic audit is going to be completed so that the people of Zambia do not continue to give incentives to investors who, at the end of the day, do not provide the benefits that the country needs.

Mr Yaluma: Mr Speaker, as a Government which is interested in the efficiency of the mines, we undertook this audit to find out exactly what is going on in the mining industry and it revealed a lot of things. This is when we came across the information which I have presented to you today.

Mr Speaker, as a result of our findings, we are demanding, firstly, that the US $357 million comes back into the country. That is part of the things we want done in order to make the mine viable.

Secondly, as regards the issue of incentives, our investigations revealed anomalies in the way that the Government gave incentives to some companies. This is why no special incentives will be offered to any company. All the incentives will be offered across the board for all investors who come into the country. We are not allowing tax holidays. They belong to the past.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mucheleka (Lubansenshi): Mr Speaker, Zambia has lost income due to tax avoidance by KCM. It is a pity that our people on the Copperbelt have no one to speak for them as though they do not have representatives in this House.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

Mr Mucheleka: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister when the forensic audit that he mentioned will be concluded and the report given to the Government and the Zambian people.

Mr Yaluma: Mr Speaker, allegations of tax avoidance by KCM have never been proven. What we know is that there is a known amount of tax that has not been paid. We have discussed it and settlement plans have been agreed upon. The other issue …

Mr Kambwili: It is mere speculation.

Mr Yaluma: … is speculative.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwale (Chipangali): Mr Speaker, the fact that …

Mr Mucheleka: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mucheleka: Mr Speaker, I thank you for granting me the opportunity to raise this point of order. The hon. Minister has not answered my question. The question was: When will the forensic audit report be made available to the Government and the Zambian people?

Hon. Opposition Members: Is he in order.

Mr Mucheleka: Is he in order not to answer the question, Sir?

Mr Deputy Speaker: Hon. Minister, as you answer the follow-up question from the hon. Member for Chipangali, please, address the concern in that point of order.

The hon. Member for Chipangali may continue.

Mr Mwale: Mr Speaker, the fact that there is a variance in the declarations to shareholders and to our own Government or our revenue authority by the mining companies is indicative of the fact that we are not on top of things as a country.

Hon. Opposition Members: No, just the PF.

Mr Mwale: Sir, the mining companies make one declaration here and another out there. What comfort can the hon. Minister give the nation and this House that the mining companies will be transparent and not under-declare or give false declarations as this nation wallows in poverty?

Mr Yaluma: Mr Speaker, before I tackle Hon. Mwale’s question, I will respond to the issue regarding the forensic audit report. The forensic audit was initiated by His Honour the Vice-President three weeks ago. You may note from newspaper reports that the forensic audit was launched three weeks ago and it has just taken off. Therefore, I am not in a position to give the timeline for the audit because it is totally outside my mandate and the terms of reference are not known to me. The audit we undertook was purely from the operations point of view which revealed the information which I have given to you.

Mr Speaker, as regards Hon. Mwale’s question, he cannot, at any point give any example as to where a mining company has under-declared its earnings. We do not have any such evidence despite what we are doing. Maybe, through the forensic audit, we may discover something. However, as I said, from what we have done, we do not have anything which we can point at. We have gone through the books and the ZRA went in with the mineral value chain audit before we went in and nothing came up. Anything else is mere speculation.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Matafwali (Bangweulu): Mr Speaker, as rider to Hon. Mwale’s question, I wanted to find out if at all we have adequate expertise in the mining industry to detect corporate fraud.

Mr Yaluma: Mr Speaker, when we undertake any initiative, we make sure that we evaluate the needed resources. We have broad opportunities of tapping into any resources not just within the mining industry, but other fields as well. The resources to do whatever we would like to see done in the mines are available.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr L. J. Ngoma (Sinda): Mr Speaker, since the Patriotic Front (PF) Government is not in charge of actual operations at KCM, can the hon. Minister assure the Zambian people that the benchmarks and targets that have been agreed upon will be met? Should KCM fail to meet the benchmarks and the targets which have agreed upon with the company fail, what will happen next?

Mr Yaluma: Mr Speaker, I said that this is performance management. We have a performance contract with set targets put in place for KCM. Whatever I talked about is on paper and, as I speak, we have just finished putting together the second quarterly report by KCM. Leave that problem to us and we will show you that we are in charge.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, I am aware that KCM is jointly owned by Vedanta Resources plc and the Government of the Republic of Zambia (GRZ). Taking into account the problems that are dodging KCM and the issues that are arising from the operations of ZCCM, are you saying that the Government, as a shareholder, should not be held accountable on behalf of the people of Zambia?

Mr Yaluma: Mr Speaker, we are not running away from the responsibility of running KCM and I can proudly say that we are on top of things. What we are seeing …

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Yaluma: … is performance-based management. We are going in the right direction. When we think that the trend is headed towards a negative direction, we will admit that. We are very much on top of things and are putting in place initiatives with the intention of improving the performance of KCM. What has been done up to now is amazing. I can tell you that one of the reasons the mine could not perform well was that it depended on contractors. As I speak, it has bought its own equipment and has started doing its own work of finding the ore sources to feed into its smelters.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kapyanga (Kabwe Central): Mr Speaker, I would like to know whether the legal framework that is in place is enough to offer checks and balances in the mining sector.

Mr Yaluma: Mr Speaker, I do not think that it is the legal framework that is a problem. There is more to it than that. We need to do more things which will give us the opportunity and the capacity to audit or manage the performance of KCM.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Speaker, Mr Anil Agarwal made scathing attacks against Zambia. He told us that he bought the mine for a song and that he is making super profits. He also said that he duped us when he came to Zambia and that we gave him red carpet treatment. Now, we are being told by the hon. Minister that the Government is on top of things and that it has received reports regarding the taxation of KCM. The hon. Minister also said that a forensic audit is currently taking place. What is the forensic audit investigating? Is it investigating the statement that Mr Anil Agarwal made saying that he underpaid the country when buying the mine? Is the team going to investigate the fact that Mr Agarwal was given red carpet treatment or that KCM has been evading its tax obligations? What is it that the forensic audit is aimed at and what is its total cost?

Mr Yaluma: Mr Speaker, I think that I answered that question earlier. I said that the forensic audit was just initiated three weeks ago by His Honour the Vice-President. As for the terms of reference of that audit, I am not aware of them because I am not part of the audit team.

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

Mr Yaluma: Mr Speaker, the need for the forensic audit has arisen because of the comments which were made by Mr Anil Agarwal. This audit will establish whether there is any tax evasion …

Interruptions

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

I want as many of you as possible to ask questions, but if you keep interjecting, we will have only a few people to debate.

Mr Yaluma: Mr Speaker, what I am telling you is that if they asked me, today, on how I would turn around this mine into a performing mine, I would do exactly what we have done with this mine from the operational point of view. I would manage it accordingly and ensure that money is injected into the mine to keep it running. The hon. Member for Kabwata will be in a position to know the findings of that audit after it is done.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mtolo (Chipata Central): Mr Speaker, I would like to remind the hon. Minister responsible for the mines that he is actually managing the main income earner for our country.

Mr Speaker, Zambia has many experts in the private sector in the mining industry who are able, if attached to these mines, to inform the Government on what the investors are mining, declaring, exporting and earning.  What comfort is the hon. Minister giving us that the natural resources that we have in this country are being well managed? Since, we shall only know the results of the forensic audit in the future, I want to know what is presently being done by the Government to ensure that we benefit sufficiently from our natural resources. Can the hon. Minister assure us that what the investors are doing is being checked by indigenous experts.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Yaluma: Mr Speaker, Hon. Mtolo, kapena nimikambileni muchi Chewa …

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

Mr Yaluma: Mr Speaker, I was just trying to say that, maybe, I should speak in Chewa in order for Hon. Mtolo to understand what I am saying. I withdraw that …

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Minister, may I have order. The official language here is English. 

You may continue, hon. Minister.

Mr Yaluma: Mr Speaker, I cannot be any more explicit than I have been here. If Hon. Mtolo has just walked into the House, I am at liberty to repeat what I have already said. I have already answered the question which he has asked. I have already answered some questions four times. I explained in my statement how we have tried to make KCM improve its performance. We have posted people to certain places in the mines. We have in place the mineral value chain monitoring group which was started by the Ministry of Finance through the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA). Just three weeks ago, His Honour the Vice-President instituted a forensic audit for the mining industry. If that is not sufficient to cool you down, then I do not know what will.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr I. Banda (Lumezi): Mr Speaker, owing to the report that KCM will offload workers due to it beginning to use modern technology, what is the Government going to do since KCM has proved that it is not a sincere business partner?

Mr Yaluma: Mr Speaker, when I spoke earlier, I said that there is no mechanisation taking place which could justify the retrenchment of some workers from KCM.

Mr Kambwili: And they have not been retrenched any workers.

Mr Yaluma: Mr Speaker, KCM has not retrenched anybody. I am in a position to tell the House right now that KCM has employed 250 out of 280 employees permanently.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Yaluma: Sir, therefore, only thirty employees are waiting for full employment. That is a plus for us.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Mr Speaker, I mean to remind the hon. Minister that during the campaign period in 2011, the hon. Minister and his team gave a good message to the people that they would bring back windfall tax on our statute books once elected into power. Now that our kwacha is losing value, has the Government considered re-introducing the windfall tax?

Mr Yaluma: Mr Speaker, this is the 110th time I have been asked that question. The Government is not in a position to consider that issue.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister started by saying that it was only after it was announced that KCM was going to retrench some workers that the Government started to investigate the operations of the mine. It was found that there was mismanagement of funds. Now, the hon. Minister is telling us that he is not aware of the terms of reference for the forensic audit which will help him understand better the operations of KCM. Does this situation indicate that the Minister of Mines, Energy and Water Development is on top of things?

Mr Yaluma: Mr Speaker, we are on top of things. The forensic audit was initiated by His Honour the Vice-President’s Office through the ZRA. I have got a representative on the forensic audit team. I have given you some information from the results of our investigations. If you want to know the terms of reference for that investigation, I can give them to you right now.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Belemu (Mbabala): Mr Speaker, if the hon. Minister is not aware of the terms of reference for the forensic audit as he has indicated, and he is a key stakeholder in that particular sector, may I know whether he believes that that forensic audit was necessary.

Mr Yaluma: Mr Speaker, it is necessary but, mind you, I do not sit on that forensic audit team. There are experts from my ministry who are part of it.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Bwalya (Lupososhi): Mr Speaker, we all know that tax avoidance is not illegal. The illegal one is tax evasion. It is also true that KCM is part of the global market because it is in a group of companies. Transfer pricing is one of the avenues which companies have been using to avoid tax. What measures has the Government put in place to ensure that transfer pricing loopholes are sealed and that companies pay the correct taxes?

Mr Yaluma: Mr Speaker, we have sealed the gaps based on the advice from the value chain monitoring audit team which was set up by the ZRA through the Ministry of Finance. The team found out a lot of things. We have also been assisted by an international institution called the International Council on Mining and Metals (ICMM) which did a random audit of the four big mines in Zambia and the information, which was revealed is very useful. However, we shall not end there. We must continue to look for means and ways of sealing these gaps. That is why the forensic audit was put in place.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kunda (Muchinga): Mr Speaker, it is the fault of those who are in the Government that we are going through the problems which we are currently facing.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter 

Mr Kunda: Sir, can the hon. Minister confirm that they have failed to address the issues that were openly talked about by the Chairman of Vedanta Resources plc when he was stating that that he bought KCM for a song.

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: No points of order.

Mr Yaluma: Mr Speaker, …

Interruptions

Mr Deputy Speaker: Let us have order!

Mr Yaluma: Mr Speaker, the performance of some of our investigations will reveal a lot of things which the people will be made aware of. We are on top of things in our bid to deliver what we promised to our people.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwanza (Solwezi West): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has, on several occasions in his address, …

Interruptions

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

I want as many hon. Members to ask points of clarification because when I move fast, sometimes, I am accused of having curtailed debates. So, if many of you want to debate, be patient.

May the hon. Member continue, please.

Mr Mwanza: Mr Speaker, in the hon. Minister’s presentation to this House, he has, on several times said that he and the Government were on top of things. Can he indicate at least three of those things on which he is on top of?

Laughter

Mr Yaluma: Mr Speaker, we speak with figures. We do not merely talk. I would like to enlighten Hon. Mwanza on what we have achieved so far. Let me talk about taxes. If you look at mining taxes as a percentage of the gross domestic product (GDP) from 2008 at 2.8 per cent, it has grown to 5.96 in 2012. Secondly, mining taxes, as a total percentage of total taxes, have increased from 16 per cent in 2008 to 32 per cent in 2012.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr W. Banda (Milanzi): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out whether it is true that a Brazilian company is running KCM on behalf of Vedanta Resources plc.

Mr Yaluma: Mr Speaker, it is none of my business to know who is contracted to do the mining by KCM.

I thank you, Sir.

Interruptions

Mr Mutati (Lunte): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister indicated the growth in terms of contribution of taxes to the GDP from …

Rev. Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Rev. Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister in order in this House to state that:“It is none of my business”, when we are discussing issues which are important to the people of Zambia?

Mr Livune: Yes!

Rev. Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha: Sir, since, we are not asking about the hon. Minister’s personal business, is he in order to say what he said?

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

My understanding of that statement was that it is not the ministry’s mandate to instruct KCM who to do business with. However, if he meant literally what you are saying, then he would not be in order.

May the hon. Member for Lunte continue, please.

Mr Mutati: Mr Speaker, I was saying that the hon. Minister has indicated that the tax contribution as a proportion of GDP from 2008 to 2012 has been on the increase. He has also indicated that the increase is a demonstration that the Government is on top of things. He has also indicated that His Honour the Vice-President has instituted a forensic audit into the operations of KCM. Would it, therefore, not be premature for the hon. Minister to indicate that he is top of things before the results of the forensic audit are made public?

Mr Yaluma: Mr Speaker, if in a mathematics examination a year before, Hon. Mutati scored 50 per cent, and then, that year scores 52 per cent, is that not an incremental change?

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Interruptions

Mr Yaluma: Sir, I think that I should leave things there.

Mr Speaker, regarding the second question, His Honour the Vice-President just initiated a process. He is not going to conduct the audit.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Yaluma: Sir, I said that the ZRA, through the Ministry of Finance, has a way of investigating such matters.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Shakafuswa (Katuba): Mr Speaker, …

Mr Konga: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! Hanjika!

Mr Konga: Mr Speaker, at midday, I listened to a news item quoting His Honour the Vice-President saying that there is a minority tribe from the southern part of the country …

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Konga: … which is campaigning on the basis of the illness of the President.

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Konga: Mr Speaker, when you look at the races represented in the country, you will notice that there are people of certain races who are in the majority while others are in the minority.

Hon. MMD Member: Like him.

Mr Konga: Sir, will the people of from the south who are a majority grouping when compared to other races be perceived to be a minority in their own country? Was the President in order …

Hon. Opposition Members: Vice-President.

Mr Konga: Sir, was His Honour the Vice-President in order to call citizens of this country a minority grouping? I need your serious ruling.

Interruptions

Mr Deputy Speaker: The problem I have with that point of order is that it is referring issues which were raised out there. We are all aware that a lot of things are said out there. I have just heard about what the hon. Member for Chavuma is referring to from him right now. Thus, it is a bit difficult for me to make a ruling …

Mr Muntanga: He cannot say that about us.

Mr Deputy Speaker: … on that point of order. Suffice to say, we may have as many tribes as possible, we still are one Zambia, one nation.

Interruptions

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Mr Muntanga: How can he say that?

Mr Shakafuswa: Mr Speaker, is the increase in the comparative contribution of tax from the mines in 2008 to 2012 as a result of the contribution of individual company tax payments or it is because more minerals are being mined and taxed. Over the years, we have seen Kansanshi and Lumwana mines come on board. In the same vein, can the hon. Minister state whether the concessions which most of these mines got in the 2000 Mines and Minerals Act which gave them mining holidays which necessitated the windfall tax in our regime have been cancelled across the board?

Mr Yaluma: Mr Speaker, the anticipated huge growth of our economy due to mineral production in the North-Western Province has not taken off yet. We are talking about the existing mines. There has been efficiency in the way that we collect taxes. The amount of revenue which we collect from the mines has improved. The audits we have done are now paying off.

Sir, I cannot say much on windfall tax as we are not breaking any law which is in the Act. If we want to do anything in that regard, we have to bring the Act to this august House for revision.

I thank you, Sir.

LAUNCH OF 2014 YOUTH DEVELOPMENT FUND

The Minister of Youth and Sport (Mr Kambwili): Mr Speaker, I thank you for according me this opportunity to address this august House on the Youth Development Fund.

Sir, the Government of the Republic of Zambia recognises entrepreneurship as an integral component …

Interruptions

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

There are a lot of people making loud consultations. It is only the hon. Minister who is on the Floor. Can we give him the chance to be heard.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, the Government of the Republic of Zambia recognises entrepreneurship as an integral component of youth employment creation that can be attained through training and development, micro credit for youth-led businesses as well as the financing of start-up businesses by the youth.

Sir, in this regard, the Patriotic Front (PF) Government has, since assuming office, been providing a budgetary allocation to the Youth Development Fund. The main aim of the fund is to empower the youth with resources for them to venture into viable income-generating projects. The fund is a catalyst to employment and wealth creation for youths who wish to take up entrepreneurship to create employment for themselves and others. It is important to note that the self employment is the easiest and quickest way to wealth creation using strategies at the micro level.

Mr Speaker, may I take this opportunity to inform this august House that we have, between 2012 and 2013, disbursed funds to over 700 youth groups facilitating the creation of over 1,500 employment opportunities for the youth. It is expected that this number will rise in 2014 as the Government has provided K20.2 million in the 2014 National Budget for the Youth Development Fund broken down as follows:

                            Purpose                                                                              Amount   (K)                                                                      
 Grants to youth organisations  3,000,000.00

 Revolving Fund 13,000,000.00

 Administration of the Fund   4,233,899.00

 Total                                                                                       20,233,899.00

Mr Speaker, in order to ensure equity and efficient distribution, the fund has been decentralised. In this regard, the funds have been allocated to provinces using population variables.

Sir, the fund can be accessed by any Zambian youth holding a green national registration card aged between 18 and 35 years, organised in a legally-registered business, company, cooperative, youth association, club and non-governmental organisation (NGO) managed and wholly owned by the youth of Zambia. The fund is given as loans to viable projects that contribute to employment creation and national development.

Furthermore, grants are given to associations and groups that are not necessarily in profit making ventures, but supplement the Government’s efforts with regard to youth development through capacity building. I wish to state to this House that this fund is never given on a political patronage basis.

Mr Speaker, the PF Government is committed to ensuring that all youths regardless of their political or religious affiliation and wherever they are found benefit from the Government empowerment innovative for their improved livelihood. I am, therefore, happy to announce the allocated amounts to provinces in the 2014 Budget as follows:

 Province  Amount(K)

 Central  2,773,500.98

 Copperbelt 1,800,000.00

 Eastern 2,764,058.00

 Luapula 1,300,000.00

 Lusaka 2,900,000.00

 Muchinga  1,200,000.00

 Northern  1,300,000.00

 Northern-Western 1,200,000.00

 Southern 1,500,000.00

 Western  1,300,000.00

 Total                                                                                     18,037,558.98

Mr Speaker, I would like to encourage all the hon. Members of Parliament to urge all the youths in the areas who have so far benefited from the fund to ensure that they meet their loan obligations by paying when they fall due so that other youths can benefit from the fund. We have made it very easy for the youth to make their repayments by opening an account at Finance Bank Zambia. The Zambia Postal Services (ZAMPOST) outlets are agents for collection of this fund. All that the youths need to do is walk into a Finance Bank Zambia branch or ZAMPOST outlet near their location, make a deposit and retain the deposit slip as proof. Therefore, there will be no excuse for defaulting whatsoever.

Mr Speaker, I would also like to take this opportunity to encourage all my fellow hon. Members of Parliament to take a keen interest in sensitising the youths in their constituencies on how the fund can be accessed. Furthermore, I am encouraging my fellow hon. Members of Parliament to use their constituency offices to distribute the forms and guidelines. The Ministry of Youth and Sport is ready to work with any hon. Member of Parliament, or indeed, any member of the general public in the sensitiaation of youths on this fund regardless of their political affiliation.

Sir, furthermore, I wish to reiterate my directive to all provincial youth development (PDY) and fund technical committees (FTCs) to intensify their sensitisation efforts in all the districts, especially those in rural areas so that all the youths are aware of this opportunity for empowerment. To this effect, it is expected that no district will not benefit from the fund.

Mr Speaker, allow me to now respond to the point of order raised by Hon. Chinga Miyutu, Member of Parliament for Kalabo Central Constituency. In his point of order on Wednesday, 25th June, 2014, Hon. Miyutu, disputed the fact that seven youth groups had benefited from the Youth Development Fund in 2012 and 2013 from his area. He claimed that only five groups had benefited from the fund during the said period. I now wish to provide details of the payment to the seven youth groups as follows:

Youth Group Cheque No.  K’ Collected by 

Uncle Sam Enterprise,  000990 25,000 Mr Samuel Masiye on 16/11/ 2013

Chimuma Sundamo            0001005 12,000  The Provincial Youth 
 General Dealers  Development  Co-ordinator on
 Behalf of the group on 16/06/2013 

Built Bridge Academy  000986 20,000 Joel Mutumwa Silisondiso on
   16/11/2013
Kalabo Young  000976 30,000 Philemon Chishinga on
Entrepreneurs   16/11/2013

JAWEJO General Dealers 001009 30,000 Milambo Jacob on
   16/11/2013

Soombo Youth Group 001016 20,000 The Provincial Youth
   Development Coordinator on
   Behalf of the group on
   16/06/2013

Alapembe Enterprise 000982 40,000 Swana Musunya on
   16/11/2013

Mr Speaker, however, I wish to indicate that there was a problem with the cheque for Alapembe Enterprise as the name on the cheque was wrongly spelt and could not, therefore, be accepted and was returned by the bank. The matter has since received necessary attention and the cheque will soon be sent to the provincial office for onward distribution to the young people.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members are now free to ask points of clarification on the ministerial statement which has been delivered by the hon. Minister of Youth and Sport.

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Mr Speaker, I would like to state that facts could either be practical or verbal. What we have heard are verbal facts. Is the ministry, therefore, ready to fund the trip for these clubs to travel from Kalabo to Mongu to verify what the hon. Minister has stated? I can even call them tomorrow.

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, that is what happens when people concoct stories. When they are given facts, they react in the manner Hon. Miyutu has reacted.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ng’onga (Kaputa): Mr Speaker, the empowerment of youths is a very important programme not only…

Mr Miyutu: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Miyutu: Mr Speaker, a question was posed to the hon. Minister over his own statement. He has chosen not to answer the question. Is the hon. Minister, therefore, in order to say whatever he desired without answering the question?

Mr Deputy Minister: Order!

You are asking me to make a ruling on something I am less conversant with in the sense that, according to the hon. Minister, what he has said is correct. However, you think that it is not correct. It is very difficult for me to make a ruling on this matter.

Can Hon. Ng’onga continue, please.

Mr Ng’onga: Mr Speaker, I was just indicating that empowering the youths is a very important programme not only for the Government, but also for the youths, especially those that are found in the rural parts of Zambia, Kaputa inclusive. I want to find out how the ministry can help our youths in the rural areas such as Kaputa where they are not able to draw up the bankable proposals, but have viable projects that can sustain their lives.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, I have directed all the provincial youth co-ordinators to conduct seminars in all the parts of Zambia to teach the youths how to come up with bankable business proposals. By the way, all the youths have to do is to fill in the blank spaces in the forms. Through the answers provided by the youths, we are able to tell if the projects which they are applying funding for are viable.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister was answering a question that arose from the point of order from…

Mr Mbewe: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, I rise on a very serious point of order. Zambians are now tired …

Hon. Member interjected.

Mr Mbewe: Yes, I am dividing the PF now.

Laughter

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, Zambians are tired of getting directives from the hon. Minister of Youth and Sport which do not work. Whenever he gives directives, what ends up happening is something else.

Laughter

Mr Mbewe: Sir, is he in order again to tell us that he has given directives to the provincial youth co-ordinators to conduct workshops which will not work? I need your serious ruling.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mr Deputy Speaker: It is only right for you to counter what has been said by the hon. Minister by raising points of clarification instead of using points of order to debate. How do I make a ruling on points of order like the one that has just been raised by the hon. Member for Chadiza? Please, if you have something that you want to say, indicate and you will be given the Floor.

The hon. Member for Kalomo Central may continue, please.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister talked about the issues which were raised  in a point of order raised by the hon. Member of Parliament for Kalabo Central. The hon. Member of Parliament for Kalabo Central knows the youth groups and stated that some of them did not get the money which the hon. Minister says they received. Can the hon. Minister indicate whether he can pay for the travel expenses of the members of youth groups in question so that they can verify the authenticity of the information which he has provided to the House? Hon. Minister, is it right for you not to answer a straight question from …
 
Mr Deputy Speaker: Are you asking him directly or are you asking him through the Speaker?

Mr Muntanga: I am asking him through you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Deputy Speaker: You are supposed to say so.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out whether he is right to be angry and not to answer the question which has been asked by the hon. Member of Parliament for Kalabo Central.

Mr Deputy Speaker: It is in situations like these that I would guide by advising the hon. Member for Kalabo Central to interact with the hon. Minister.

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Interruptions

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

That is the guidance from the Speaker. I do not expect the hon. Minister to fight him.

Interruptions

Mr Deputy Speaker: The hon. Member for Kalabo Central should find time to go and discuss the matter with the hon. Minister.

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, I have given the cheque numbers and the names of the people that collected them. What other information do the hon. Members want? The operations of the Government are budgeted for. I am not going to get money that is not budgeted for to bring those youths here. So, if the hon. Member of Parliament …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: … wants those youths to clarify this issue, he should bring them here at his own expense because it is not my responsibility to do so.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo (Chongwe): Mr Speaker, I want to thank the hon. Minister of Youth and Sport for a good statement. I think it is a very important statement for us parliamentarians because the rate of unemployment in this country is very high. The empowerment programme can help us, hon. Members of Parliament, in ensuring that we assist our youths in our constituencies to employ themselves.

Mr Deputy Speaker: What is the question?

Mrs Masebo: Sir, is it possible for hon. Minister to spend just a little of his time to try and explain to us the criteria for accessing these funds. I say so because although we read about the criteria, we continuously hear people say that it is difficult to access the money. Can the hon. Minister, in simple English, explain the criteria so that hon. Members of Parliament can understand it and those listening to us through radio can also learn something from him?

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, the procedure is very simple. Every year, we send the forms to the districts. This year, we even stated that the hon. Members of Parliament can come to our offices to pick up the forms. When the forms are taken to the youths, they fill them in and then they are taken to the District Commissioner’s Office.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Sir, those that can afford to take them directly to the provincial youth co-ordinators are free to do so. After the provincial youth co-ordinators collect the forms, there is a technical committee which sits at provincial level to evaluate the applications. Once the forms are evaluated, the committee recommends which clubs or individuals should be funded. That list is brought to the head office where the cheques are prepared. So, the process is as simple as that. We are ready, as a ministry, to send our staff to conduct seminars explaining the criteria in detail in respective constituencies which need them.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Livune (Katombola): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister alluded to the fact that constituency offices can help in distributing the forms to the various youth groups.

Sir, the ministry only provides a copy of the forms and considering that hon. Members of Parliament are not funded to make photocopies of the documents, where will we get the money to make copies to distribute to the many clubs in our areas?

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, first and foremost, it is not true that we only give the hon. Member of Parliament one form each. We send a bunch of these forms to each district. This only shows that my younger brother does not care about the people in his constituency.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Musonda (Kapiri Mposhi): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out the composition of the technical committee at the provincial level.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, there are individuals from the Anti-Corruption Commission, Drug Enforcement Commission, Zambia Chamber of Commerce and Industry, Zambia Development Agency, the youth business community in the province as well as representatives of the chiefs and other Government officials. It is a committee that has membership drawn from people of all walks of life within the province. There is no political representation on this committee.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Lufuma: Mr Speaker, in the interest of the equitable distribution of the scarce resources that Zambia has, is the hon. Minister in any way considering distributing this fund per district/constituency so that each and every district/constituency can have an equal share because as it is, the distribution is uneven.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, that is a suggestion which can be looked into. However, at the moment, we are distributing these funds through the province. We are actually thinking of turning the fund into a youth bank. We have since cleared the name with Bank of Zambia and are just about to register the bank with the Patents and Companies Registration Agency (PACRA) so that we can attract more investment to this fund with the hope that more people can access it.

I thank you, Sir.
 
Mr Habeenzu (Chikankata): Mr Speaker, since these forms are not easily accessible, would it not be prudent for the hon. Minister to distribute them in our pigeonholes in order to make it easy for us to access them.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, that is a suggestion which can be looked into.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Hamudulu (Siavonga): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has partly answered my question. You may recall that the Citizens Economic Empowerment Commission (CEEC) failed because of politicisation of its administration process especially through the use of District Commissioners (DCs). The hon. Minister has again mentioned that one alternative is to go through the DC. I feel there may be a danger in doing this because it is an open secret that, actually, DCs are politicians. I think that it would be better for the ministry to use council secretaries instead.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, I have said that we are open to suggestions. The suggestion from my brother that we work with council secretaries and not DCs is also something that we can look into.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Kapyanga: Mr Speaker, I will be very sincere. The hon. Minister of Youth and Sport is one of the most proactive and action-oriented hon. Ministers in this Cabinet.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Kapyanga: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what measures the Government is putting in place to ensure that the youth who have gone into value-addition activities are assisted in accessing equipment.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, we have developed a youth employment strategy targeting people in rural areas, especially those involved in agriculture-related activities. We are working in collaboration with the International Labour Organisation (ILO) and the African Development Bank (ADB) who will help with the purchasing of equipment for value-addition activities in agriculture. 

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

Mr Ng’onga: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, directives are always given by dictators.

Laughter

Mr Mbewe: Sir, a few weeks ago, the hon. Minister gave directives to the Times of Zambia, which did not work. 

Laughter

Mr Mbewe: Sir, he also gave directives to Chipata Municipal Council that did not work. Today, he is giving another directive that workshops should be conducted in provincial centres. 

Laughter

Mr Mbewe: Sir, can the hon. Minister assure the nation and that this directive will work out this time around.

Laughter

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, where I come from, we have a saying that “pansaka tapabula iciwelewele” meaning that where there is a gathering, there are different types of people, ….

Laughter

Mr Kambwili: … some of whom may not have a well-developed brain. 

Laughter

Mr Kambwili: Let me add, Sir, that …

Mr Shakafuswa: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Shakafuswa: Mr Speaker, I rise on a very serious point of order.

Interruptions

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

Mr Shakafuswa: Mr Speaker, in this House there is a tendency to give certain languages prominence. When I use Lenje in this House, I am ruled out of order. Today, someone has used a language which has not been ruled out of order.

Laughter

Mr Shakafuswa: Is this House in order to allow certain languages to be used at the expense of other languages? I need your serious ruling, Sir.

Laughter

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

The beauty about this House is that the people out there understand what is being said. The hon. Member for Katuba is cleverly trying to challenge Mr Speaker. The truth is that when one uses a native language in this House, because the official language is English, he or she is supposed to give an interpretation of whatever they have said. Therefore, if you spoke Lenje, but did not give an interpretation in English, then you would be deemed out of order.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Deputy Speaker: However, if you speak your native language then gave an interpretation of what you had said, which is what the hon. Minister has done, then you would be in order.

The hon. Minister may continue.

Hon. Government Members: Ciwelewele uyo!

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, my brother and friend is only trying to play chimbuya or cousinship. I am sure he knows that because of that directive Lusaka City Council has paid up. The Times of Zambia has since paid its employees part of the money which it owes them. I do not know what the current situation at the Chipata Municipal Council is. You can clearly see that my directives do work.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

I will allow two more questions before we move on to Questions for Oral Answer. I will allow the hon. Member for Sesheke Central and the hon. Member for Mwandi to ask their questions. 

Hon. Member for Sesheke Central, you may proceed.

Mr Shakafuswa: Kambwili for President!

Mr Sianga (Sesheke): Mr Speaker, the people of Sesheke did not receive these funds in 2012 and 2013, respectively. Can the hon. Minister inform this House and the nation where the linkage is? Is it at provincial level through provincial co-ordinators or at the district level through the DCs?

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, I want to reiterate that this year we are not distributing cheques to provinces where only the people in provincial centres have been recommended for funding. I have told our officials and the technical committees that provincial centres are not provinces, but part of the provinces. For instance, if you look at the list that I gave out, there are so many clubs from Mongu and yet only two for Kalabo were funded. I have made it very clear to our officers on the ground that we are not going to give out cheques if that is the scenario. We want this money to go to the remotest parts of this country so that it benefits all the youths in the country.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kaingu (Mwandi): Mr Speaker, there are some provinces which are poorer than others. Would the hon. Minister consider positive discrimination towards these poorer provinces?

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, the amount that has been allocated this month is almost the same. There is, maybe, a difference of K100,000 or K50,000. I think that when giving out resources, we should be fair to everybody. We have tried by all means to give out this money based on population density and poverty levels in each province.

I thank you, Sir

Mr Deputy Speaker: Being a democrat, I think that I will allow Hon. Lubinda whom I saw seriously indicating to speak.

Hon. Member of Parliament for Kabwata, you may ask your question.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Sir, charity is a virtue. I would like to join those who are recognising the efforts of the hon. Minister in his work.

Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Lubinda: Sir, those who are uncharitable may continue on their path.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Deputy Speaker: What is your question?

Mr Lubinda: Sir, I would like to know whether the hon. Minister, in his hard work, would consider the fact that the questions emanating from hon. Members of Parliament about disbursement arise because they may not be privy to the processing of these applications. If this is the case, would he consider decentralising at least the receipt of these applications so that they are handled by constituency offices for onward delivery to districts, then provinces and finally to his committees so that the hon. Members of Parliament are able to follow what is happening. That way, Hon. Miyutu will not come to complain that his clubs have not received any support because he was not involved in the process. Hon. Minister, would you consider this?

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, that would be over decentralisation.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

______

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

SOCIETY OF BLIND PERSONS IN KAPUTA

508. Mr Ng’onga (Kaputa) asked the Minister of Community Development, Mother and Child Health:

(a) what measures the Government had taken to assist the Society of Blind Persons in Kaputa Parliamentary Constituency; and

(b) what measures the Government had taken to assist the society to access various empowerment funds administered by the ministry.

The Minister of Gender and Child Development (Mrs Wina) on behalf of the Minister of Community Development, Mother and Child Health (Mrs Kabanshi): Mr Speaker, I would like to inform the House that the Government, through the Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Child Health, implements various poverty reduction…

Interruptions

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

The people on my left are making it impossible for the hon. Minister to be heard.

May she continue.

Mrs Wina: Mr Speaker, the ministry implements various poverty reduction and empowerment programmes in all the districts of the country. Notable among them are the Food Security Pack Programme, Women Empowerment and Social Protection funds.

Sir, furthermore, the ministry had released funds to empower physically challenged groups so that they can become self-reliant. One such group is Mowa Centre for the Blind. This association received funding from the Government amounting to K40,000 for the procurement of carpentry tools to help kick-start a carpentry workshop at their centre.

Sir, with regard to the social protection initiatives for blind persons in Kaputa Parliamentary Constituency, records indicate that they are not registered as a disabled persons organisation with the Zambian Agency for Persons with Disabilities (ZAPD).

Mr Speaker, in terms of the measures taken to assist the society through the various empowerment funds administered by the Government, the ministry has been sensitising groups and the association on the existence of the empowerment programmes and made available the application forms and other requirements.

Interruptions

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members on my far left are making it difficult for the Chair to follow what the hon. Minister is saying. You see, we are supposed to be serious in this House. When an answer is being given, let us listen. There are many others who are interested in hearing what is being said.

 May the hon. Minister continue.

Mrs Wina: Sir, the ministry is working towards making the application forms and other requirements available for accessing the empowerment funds.

 I thank you, Sir.

Mr Ng’onga: Mr Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Minister for that answer.

Sir, on behalf of Mowa Centre for the Blind which was allocated K40,000, I would like to find out whether there is any possibility that some additional funds can be given to the centre for it to begin production since it already has the equipment.

Mrs Wina: Mr Speaker, Mowa Centre for the Blind has not yet indicated whether it needs  extra funding. As soon as that knowledge is made available to the ministry, consideration will be made.

 I thank you, Sir.

Mr I. Banda (Lumezi): Mr Speaker, over the years, part of the empowerment to the blind persons or disabled persons has been to settle them on farms. Unfortunately, the disabled persons have not been given sufficient funds to enable them to run the farms properly. What is the Government doing in order to make sure that the activities on the farms are revived?

Mrs Wina: Mr Speaker, the Government is very much aware that the farms have been dormant for quite some time. As such, the ministry has requested for funds from the Treasury to revamp the farms and also to resettle the people with disabilities. The programme is ongoing.

 I thank you, Sir.

Prof. Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Mr Speaker, there are a number of blind persons on the streets moving around and are aided by children.  They beg from motorists in Lusaka and probably other urban areas. May I know what the ministry is doing to address the plight of these blind persons.

Mrs Wina: Mr Speaker, the issue of the blind persons roaming the streets and the issue of the street children is more or less the same. The ministry is trying its best to take away the blind people from the streets and resettle them on the old farms or send them to the villages. The ministry is also encouraging them to join organisations that are affiliated to the mother body for associations for disabled persons so that they can benefit from the many Government funding avenues that are made available for the persons with disabilities.

 I thank you, Sir.

Ms Namugala (Mafinga): Mr Speaker, the disabled people in our country live in very deplorable conditions. It seems the Government thinks all the disabled persons just need aid. Even though the hon. Minister is not the substantive holder of the position, I am sure I can still get a response from her for my question. What is the ministry responsible …

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

Whether she is just acting or not, I am sure she will be able to answer your question.

Ms Namugala: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what the Government is doing to ensure that each ministry has a focal point person to ensure that the budgeting of all the ministries takes into account the needs of persons living with disabilities.

Mrs Wina: Mr Speaker, under the Ministry Community Development, Mother and Child Health, there is a Social Welfare Department that takes care of the vulnerable people including persons with disabilities. We also have a programme in place through which people with disabilities are given support to start small businesses so that they move away from handouts. Therefore, the ministry has a lot of programmes addressing various target groups amongst persons with disabilities.

 I thank you, Sir.

Dr Kaingu (Mwandi): Mr Speaker, ZAPD which is an organisation in the Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Child Health retrenched all the disabled persons from the farms with very meager sums of money. What is the Government going to do with the disabled persons who were retrenched by ZAPD?

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

 I notice that we have actually gone outside the main question asked by the hon. Member for Kaputa. One of the reasons for this is that when answers have been given by those concerned, sometimes, go beyond the main question. It is for that reason that we allow questions that are not really in accordance with the mains question.

Can the hon. Minister give a bonus answer?

Mrs Wina: Mr Speaker, although the question is outside the ambit of the main question, perhaps, I can give a bonus answer to the hon. Member in that all the ZAPD retirees were adequately paid by the Government, according to what they were entitled to.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwezi): Mr Speaker, when Hon. Namugala was running that ministry, it seemed, …

Mr Mutelo: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Sing’ombe: Mr Speaker, I apologise to the hon. Member on the Floor. I rise on this point of order with a heavy heart. Yesterday, the House belaboured to know how long the head of state would be away on a working holiday. We were not given an answer and yet an outsider got that answer. I do not know whether it is because this outsider is a journalist from the British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC). His Honour the Vice-President told that journalist that the President would be out of the country for two weeks. We, Zambians, are the owners of the President. Was His Honour the Vice-President in order not to give us the answer here and, instead, he went to give that answer somewhere else?

I need your serious ruling, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Deputy Speaker: Well, I cannot give you a serious ruling because I do not know if what you are saying is what His Honour the Vice-President said. So, I cannot make a ruling on that. However, let me say that a lot of things are being said out there. There is a lot of politicking out there and, so, if we are going to bring everything that is being said outside by politicians into the House, we will not successfully transact the business of this House. There are certain issues that can be debated here. However, I am afraid it is not every issue that is discussed outside there that should be brought to this House.

Could the hon. Member who was on the Floor continue.

Mr Sing’ombe: Mr Speaker, before the point of order was raised, I was saying that when Hon. Namugala was running that ministry, she provided some kind of funds. Would the current hon. Minister not consider sitting down and consulting with Hon. Namugala, who seems to have a very good heart for the people we are talking about?

Mrs Wina: Mr Speaker, let me point out that, …

Interruptions

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

Mrs Wina: …the Government of the Republic of Zambia, whether under the PF or whatever party there was, has put in place certain measures to take care of the vulnerable people, including people with disabilities. We have the Public Support Scheme, Social Cash Transfer Scheme,  Food Security Pack Scheme and Women Economic Empowerment Scheme. All these schemes are targeting the vulnerable and people with disabilities. We are working according to the PF Manifesto, which supports the taking care of the poor people of this country.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Rev. Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha (Keembe): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has said that the people with disabilities were paid adequately, …

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

[MR DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

Rev. Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha: Mr Speaker, before business was suspended, I was making a follow up to a question which was asked by Hon. Dr Kaingu. When the hon. Minister was asked about the people from ZAPD, she said they were paid adequate retrenchment packages. Could the hon. Minister care to bring these facts to the House so that we can see if it is true that these people were paid adequately.

Dr Kaingu: Hear, hear!

Mrs Wina: Mr Speaker, as I explained earlier, the retirees were paid according to what was due to each of them. I understand that some of the retirees used their money and then went back to claim some more on the basis of not having received adequate funding. However, if the hon. Member would like to have more information on this issue, the ministry will definitely provide it.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lufuma (Kabompo West): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has said that the vulnerable could go to the Department of Social Welfare for assistance. That statement is just nice and glossy. I have, on several occasions, tried to take the vulnerable people in my constituency to this department and all we get is that the department has no money.

Dr Kaingu: Where is the money?

Mr Lufuma: Where is the money?

Laughter

Mrs Wina: Mr Speaker, when the money is available, it is given to the ministry, which then passes it on to the people with disabilities and vulnerable groups in our society. However, if the ministry has not received adequate funding, there is very little that it can do to satisfy the needs and requirements of all the recipients who want to benefit from that fund.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Hamudulu (Siavonga): Mr Speaker, does this money come spontaneously or it is budgeted for? I would like to know exactly when the money is coming and how much has been budgeted for this particular programme.

Mrs Wina: Mr Speaker, the substantive question was on the support to the blind people in Kaputa Constituency. Therefore, that is a new question which the hon. Member can ask the hon. Minister in due course.

I thank you, Sir.

ROAD WORKS IN PEMBA

509. Mrs Mazoka (Pemba) asked the Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication when the following roads in Pemba District would be rehabilitated:

(a) Moyo;

(b) Habbanyuka;

(c) Mayasanino;

(d) Jalila; and

(e) Batoka/Hamabbonka.

The Deputy Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication (Mr Mwimba H. Malama): Mr Speaker, the Moyo, Habbanyuka, Mayasanino, Jalila and Batoka to Hamabbonka …

Interruptions

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

Just listen. We have different pronunciations.

Laughter

Mr Mwimba H. Malama: At least, I have tried.

Mr Speaker, these are feeder roads in Pemba District whose maintenance falls under the Rural Roads Unit (RRU) of Southern Province. The Government through the RRU has planned to rehabilitate the Moyo and Habbanyuka roads within 2014 according to the 2014 work plan. The maintenance works on these roads are expected to commence in the third quarter of 2014. However, the maintenance of the Mayasanino, Jalila and Batoka to Hamabbonka roads was not included in the RRU’s 2014 work plan. The RRU plans to carry out rehabilitation works on these three roads in 2015 and, therefore, officers will be sent this year to carry out inspections to determine the required works and corresponding funds.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Hamusonde (Nangoma): Mr Speaker, does the Government have plans to tar these roads in the near future?

Mr Mwimba H. Malama: Mr Speaker, these are feeder roads. If funds were available, we would gladly actually upgrade all the feeder roads in Zambia. For now, we are looking at maintaining the feeder roads.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mufalali (Senanga): Mr Speaker, I am interested in the Mayasanino Road because the House might be turned into mayasanino.

Laughter

Mr Mufalali: Sir, does the ministry have a master plan for ensuring that feeder roads such as Mayasanino are not left out year in year out?

Laughter

Mr Deputy Speaker: I do not seem to understand what is nice about that word.

Laughter

Mr Mwimba H Malama: Sir, there is always a plan for roads throughout the country.

Hon. UPND Members: Mayasanino.

Mr Mwimba H. Malama: Yes, including Mayasanino.

Laughter

Mr Mwimba H. Malama: Sir, the only problem we have as hon. Members of Parliament is not to know the channel to follow when we want to submit some of these roads for the Government to work on. Sometimes, we are fond of short cuts. We actually like submitting questions without even involving the local authorities. It is important that before we even ask some of these questions, we first of all follow the right channel so that we are advised at the local level.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mooya (Moomba): Sir, does the RRU still exists. If it does, is it still effective? What is its status now?

Mr Mwimba H. Malama: Mr Speaker, the RRU is still there and very effective.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chipungu (Rufunsa): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister is talking about these works being carried out in the third quarter of 2014.  We are about to get into the rainy season. Is it possible for the works to be carried out during the third quarter when it about to start raining?

Mr Mwimba H. Malama: Sir, yes, it is possible. Doing some of these projects is a process because they are not small jobs.  You cannot just wake up and go on site. There are a lot of issues that are involved. After being picked, the contractor mobilises and then the works begin. I can assure the good hon. Member of Parliament for Pemba that in the second quarter of this year, the works will commence.

Hon. Opposition Members: We have finished the second quarter.

Mr Mwimba H. Malama: Sir, in the third quarter of this year.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Livune (Katombola): Mr Speaker, when will the Government consider decentralising the operations of the RRU from the province so that the districts can promptly deal with these matters as soon as the rainy season is over?

The Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication (Mr Mukanga): Mr Speaker, as soon as decentralisation is done at the national level, most of the works that we are going to be doing will be done at the district level.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Speaker, I realise that the hon. Minister has said that the ministry will plan for works on the Mayasanino Road. Now, this road leads into Gwembe. I am aware that there are graders now in Gwembe. Would the RRU now not consider taking the road from Gwembe to Mayasanino so that it can connect to Habbanyuka, where the RRU already wants to undertake works?

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, I do not know the meaning of Mayasanino, …

Laughter

Mr Mukanga: … but I think this job will be undertaken as planned by the RRU. I think the statement that was given by the hon. Deputy Minister will be what we are going to do. We will do it by the third quarter. We will ensure that we do the work effectively.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwila (Chipili): Mr Speaker, does the Government normally check on what is happening …

Mr Livune: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Livune: Mr Speaker, is Hon. Munkombwe in order to remain seated there quietly when the House is struggling to know the meaning of Mayasanino? Can he not explain its meaning to the Executive side of this House? I need your serious ruling.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Deputy Speaker: The hon. Member for Chipili may continue.

Laughter

Mr Mwila: Mr Speaker, I want to find out from the hon. Minister whether they normally check on what is being done on the ground …

Interruptions

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

Mr Mwila: …by the RRU because it is now three years ever since it worked on feeder roads in Chipili Constituency.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, I appreciate the question, but the matter we are discussing …

Interruptions

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

We are not listening.

Mr Mukanga: …is about Mayasanino …

Laughter

Mr Mukanga: … which is not found in Chipili. The RRU is a unit that is under our ministry. We have inspectors in the ministry who inspect the work of the RRU.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sing’ombe: Mr Speaker, in one of the responses by the Deputy Minister, he indicated that hon. Members of Parliament use short cuts. When will the ministry consider orienting the hon. Members of Parliament about the proper channels they can use so that their roads can be worked on?

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, what we normally do is that, at the beginning of the year, we ask the Road Development Agency (RDA) to make a presentation so that at least we understand which direction we should follow. On the matter of orienting the hon. Members of Parliament, we will make a write-up which will be given to the hon. Members of Parliament through their pigeonholes.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

NURSES

510. Mr Hamusonde asked the Minister of Health:

(a) how many nurses there were in public health facilities countrywide, as of April, 2014;

(b) what the total required number of nurses was;

(c) what measures have been taken to meet the shortfall;

(d) when the full complement of nurses, countrywide, would be met; and

(e) when the Government would employ enough medical doctors and other health personnel.

The Deputy Minister of Health (Dr Chilufya): Mr Speaker, as of April, 2014, there were 10,064 nurses and 2,803 midwives in the public health facilities countrywide.

Mr Speaker, the total number of nurses according to the approved establishment for the health sector is 17,497 while that for midwives is 6,106.

Mr Speaker, the Government, through the Ministry of Health, has put in place the following measures to meet the shortfall:

(i) launch of the National Training Operation Plan (NTOP) 2013 to 2016 with the sole purpose of addressing the gap between production and the demand of health care workers through various interventions to increase the production of health care workers including nurses;

(ii) commencement of e-learning for nursing programmes to increase production as many prospective students would be able to have access to learning materials and lecturers from anywhere in the country;

(iii) introduction of a combined registered nurse/midwife training programme that will produce a registered nurse in a short period of time;

(iv) commencement of construction works for the National Health Training School at Chainama to compliment the already existing training schools;

(v) re-opening of nursing schools that had been closed. Doing so will ensure that the production of nurses is increased. Furthermore, with the support of co-operating partners, the increased production of nurse tutors who are now expected to man the re-opened schools and those that are being constructed; and

(vi) improvement of conditions of service for Government employees including nurses following the job evaluation exercise that the Government undertook and implemented in 2013. This has drastically reduced the brain drain and attracted more health workers to join the Public Service and indeed return those already serving.

Mr Speaker, according to the NTOP 2013-2016, the Government, through the Ministry of Health hopes to bridge the gap of nurses countrywide by 2020. This is based on an analysis from the current output from the training institutions and the optimal required nurses in the establishment.

Mr Speaker, the aim of the Government is to have enough health care workers in the country for all fields. This is the reason the Government launched the NTOP 2013-2016 to bridge the gap between the production and demand of health workers. Hence by implementing NTOP 2013-2016, the Government is hopeful that there will be enough health workers available to be employed by 2020. However, the House may wish to note that the employment of health care workers is a continuous process as the population keeps growing and, therefore, staff will be employed as and when vacancies are available.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Hamusonde: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that most of the patients die because of not being attended to in time due to lack of nurses and doctors?

Dr Chilufya: Mr Speaker, there are many factors that may lead to the unfortunate loss of lives. The point which the hon. Member has made might not necessarily be accurate.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sing’ombe: Mr Speaker, may I know whether the hon. Minister has any nurses trained in sign language.

Dr Chilufya: Mr Speaker, we do not have nurses trained in sign language.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Speaker, the establishment shows one nurse for six hundred per capita. The actual is one nurse per one thousand citizens. Can I find out from the hon. Minister whether, indeed, that establishment of twenty-three thousand is the total requirement of Zambia and how it compares in the region?

Dr Chilufya: Mr Speaker, the establishment does not necessarily reflect the actual need. However, with the increase in the production of health workers, the establishment will be revised to ensure that we can improve the nurse-patient ratio.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mufalali: Mr Speaker, the hon. Deputy Minister alluded to Senanga as one of the places where there will be a college where they will train nurses. May I know from the hon. Minister what type of nurses will trained at Senanga. Are they going to be enrolled nurses, registered nurses and midwives?

Dr Chilufya: Mr Speaker, we will be training registered nurses.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Ng’onga: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister alluded to the fact that there is a training programme that would speed up the number of health care workers. Is this training taking care of the many workers that this country would need by 2016 when the 650 health posts come into effect?

Dr Chilufya: Mr Speaker, the construction of health posts is accompanied by planning for human resource and equipment. We will have enough human resource by the time we finish the construction of the 650 health posts.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, the general practice currently in most of our hospitals is that when a patient is admitted, the nursing staff will always demand that a relative remains by the bedside to provide nursing care, and that if there is no relative, in most instances, that patient will have no requisite care. I would like to find out from the hon. Deputy Minister the policy of the Government pertaining to the provision of nursing care by relatives of those who are admitted in hospital.

Dr Chilufya: Mr Speaker, it is not the policy of the Government to have relatives of patients provide nursing care. A single relative per bed may be allowed to support the admitted patient. However, it is not a policy for them to provide the nursing care which is provided by our staff.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mumba (Mambilima): Mr Speaker, may the hon. Minister comment on the quality of the nurses that are being churned out of the so many privately-owned nursing schools.

Dr Chilufya: Mr Speaker, before training begins in privately-owned nursing schools, accreditation is done by the General Nursing Council and there is the continuous monitoring and evaluation of the teaching processes in these institutions. Therefore, I would like to confirm that the quality of the nurses that are churned out of privately-owned nursing schools is good.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Mr Speaker, in view of the information that there will be the training of registered nurses in Senanga, does the Government plan to upgrade the district hospital to a general hospital?

Dr Chilufya: Mr Speaker, there is a plan to upgrade a number of first level hospitals into general hospitals, but there are various variables we look at before we do that and these include population, infrastructure and human resource. So, Senanga will certainly be considered at the appropriate time if those variables are met.
I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mushanga (Bwacha): Mr Speaker, since the hon. Deputy Minister talked about the construction of 650 health posts in his response to a question, I would like to find whether the actual construction has started and, if so, in which provinces.

Dr Chilufya: Mr Speaker, the construction of health posts has commenced. We have three contractors who are handling the ten provinces. At the moment, the contractors are mobilising and works have begun in some provinces.

Hon. Members: Where?

Dr Chilufya: Sir, there is a schedule of works that the contractors have released and I can confirm that construction has begun. They have dug boreholes in some places, while they are setting up their machines in others.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, the hon. Deputy Minister stated in one of his answers that there are no nurses that are trained in sign language. This means those with hearing impairments are not attended to properly. Is the ministry considering training some nurses in sign language so that there is proper communication to avoid dispensing wrong medicines to those with hearing impairments?

Dr Chilufya: Mr Speaker, the suggestion is well taken and we will certainly consider it through our curriculum committee.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwila: Mr Speaker, I want the hon. Minister to be specific on the issue of the 650 health posts.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwila: Mr Speaker, it is now two and half years …

Mr Belemu: Hear, hear! You are my friend.

Mr Mwila: … since I told the people of Chipili that five health posts would be constructed in the area. To date, they are still waiting. Can the hon. Minister tell me what I should go and tell the people of Chipili?

Dr Chilufya: Mr Speaker, the start date for the construction of the 650 health posts was 25th April, 2014, and contractors have a schedule. They will not be in every province or district at the same time. So, currently, we have contractors in Luapula and they will move from Bahati to Chipili within the next few weeks.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Ng’onga: Hear, hear!

Mr Livune: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has informed us and the nation that there are three contractors that have been contracted to construct the 650 health posts. Would the hon. Minister care to give further information to individual hon. Members of Parliament so that they can know which contractor will deal with their respective areas?

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chilufya: Mr Speaker, there is a comprehensive schedule of works that we demanded from the three contractors and copies will be made available to all the hon. Members of Parliament.

I thank you, Sir.

Interruptions

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

We have an answer that there will be a schedule …

Hon. Opposition Member: When?

Mr Deputy Speaker: … that will be circulated to all hon. Members. Hon. Deputy Minister, do you have a rough idea as to when the schedule might be circulated?

Dr Chilufya: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister of Health will issue a ministerial statement and that is when he will probably circulate the schedule.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chipungu (Rufunsa): Mr Speaker, in his response to the question, the hon. Deputy Minister informed the House that there are 10, 064 nurses in public health facilities countrywide and that the total required number according to the approved establishment for the health sector is 17, 000. You can see the difference and the fact that we need more nurses. Hon. Deputy Minister, are you not considering bringing back the nurses that the Government fired for striking from various hospitals in the country?

Dr Chilufya: Mr Speaker, the nurses that were dismissed were given an opportunity to reapply and a number of them did and have since been retained.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: I think that we should now have the last question. I think that we have done justice to the question.

Mr Hamudulu: Mr Speaker, in his response to the question raised by the hon. Member of Parliament for Monze Central, the hon. Deputy Minister said that it is not Government policy for relatives of patients to spend nights in hospitals.  May he come out openly as to whether or not the Government will encourage the trend?

Dr Chilufya: Mr Speaker, I reiterate that it is not Government policy. As a matter of fact, we want to avoid nosocomial infections by avoiding keeping people who are healthy in the hospital. We do not want them to contract illnesses that they did not come with. We are considering employing auxiliary nurses, nurse assistants and just increasing the number of nurses.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwaliteta: I have heard about it.

Laughter

Mr Mwila: Walwa doctor, walwa!

Mr Ng’onga: Hear, hear! Ema minister aya!

LUWINGU/ NSOMBO/CHABA/CHILUBI ROAD

Mr Bwalya (Lupososhi) asked the Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication when works on the Luwingu/Nsombo/Chaba/Chilubi Road would commence.

Mr Mwimba H. Malama: Mr Speaker, the upgrading of the Luwingu/Nsombo/Chaba/Chilubi Road is part of the Link Zambia 8,000 km Road Project.

Mr Speaker, the Government, through the RDA, has engaged Rankin Engineering Consultants to carry out a techno-economic study, detailed engineering design and tender document preparation for the upgrading of 196.5 km of the Luwingu to Chilubi Road at a contract sum of K7,789,252.68. The consultancy services have commenced and are expected to be completed in September, 2014.

Therefore, the upgrading works are expected to commence in the second quarter of 2015 after the engagement of a contractor.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Bwalya: Mr Speaker, this road will open the possibility of the promotion of tourism in the area where Lake Bangweulu is found. The period that the hon. Minister stated is quite long. Hon. Minister, may I know whether there has been a preliminary report that Rankin Engineering Consultants has provided to RDA to provide some preliminary evaluation of the cost and the works that need to be advertised.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, all road construction projects have procedures. The procedure is that we should have a consultant who will give us a report. Once he gives us a report, we will know how much the road contract is expected to cost and the duration. Therefore, when the consultant’s activities are completed in September, we will be in a position to know when we shall move to the next stage.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mucheleka (Lubansenshi): Mr Speaker, the people of Luwingu and Chilubi have been confined to perpetual poverty. It is a pity that our people in Chilubi do not have anyone to speak for them. I have to speak for them.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mucheleka: Mr Speaker, the people of Luwingu and Chilubi …

Interruptions

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

Please, let us get used to asking questions. Let us not preface our questions with statements.

Hon. Member for Lubansenshi,  continue please.

Hon. Government Member: Bayama mwaumfwa?

Mr Mucheleka: Mr Speaker, may I find out from the hon. Minister why this important road was not prioritised in the first phase of the Link Zambia 8,000 km Road Project. Instead, we are being told that the works might start some time in 2015, and there is no guarantee about that. May I find out from the hon. Minister why he decided to relegate this important road to whatever phase you may call it.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, firstly, I would like to state that the hon. Member of Parliament for Chilubi has been in constant communication with us and has been following up on this project. As a result of our discussions with him, we have prioritised this road by making sure that it is provided for in this quarter so that the consultant can start work. The hon. Member for Chilubi understands the challenges that we have had and that is why it is important that this road be done at this time. This road has been in a very bad state since Independence.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kapyanga (Kabwe Central): Mr Speaker, since the hon. Minister has talked about the Link Zambia 8,000 km Road Project, I want to find out from him when the construction of Ufulu Road in Kabwe, which is …

Hon. Government Members: Ah!

Mr Kapyanga: … is in a very bad state will also commence.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

I think that we should not take advantage of the situation by asking questions that are not really in the main ambit of the original question.

The hon. Member for Kaputa may ask a question.

Mr Ng’onga: Mr Speaker, I want to find out from the hon. Minister whether these roads are being constructed in phases as per the pronouncement in 2011 made by the President. The President said that these roads were going to be constructed in phases I, II and III. We have been telling the people that those roads which would be built in Phase I would be completed before a certain time. Are we still constructing these roads according to the phases or not?

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

I hope that that question refers to the roads in the original question.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, work on the road in question is proceeding as planned. It is in the phase that it was supposed to be made, and that is Phase I.

I thank you, Sir.

KAPUTA WATER PROJECT

512. Mr Ng’onga asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing:

(a) what the Government’s preferred model for the Kaputa Water Project was;

(b) when the money for the project was released;

(c) which contractor was awarded the contract for the project;

(d) whether the source of water for the project had been identified and, if not, why; and

(e) who was supervising the project on behalf of the Government.

  The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr Kufuna): Mr Speaker, the Government’s preferred model is the rehabilitation and construction of a comprehensive water supply and sanitation system that will involve the designing and construction of a water production plant, transmission, storage …

  Interruptions

  Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

  We do not seem to be listening. We are sending a wrong message to people who are listening. It concerns me that we are showing habits that are not in accordance with our rules of behaviour.

  Hon. Minister, you may continue.

  Mr Kufuna: Mr Speaker, the Government’s preferred model is the rehabilitation and construction of a comprehensive water supply and sanitation system that will involve designing and construction of a water production plant, transmission, storage and distribution network.

  Mr Speaker, the contract was awarded on 6th May, 2013 and the advance payment amounting to K4,147,346 was released on 3rd June, 2013 to the contractor. A further payment  of K2,400,000 in early May, 2014, was released to Chambeshi Water and Sewerage Company as part payment towards interim certificates No. 1 and No. 2 in the sum of K1,890,590 and K1,737,648 respectively.

  Mr Speaker, the contract was awarded to Tomorrow Investment and Allione Consulting Engineers …

Hon. Opposition Members: Aha Tomorrow Investment!

  Mr Kufuna: … in association with WCE Zambia Limited as an integrated construction unit on 6th May, 2013, by Chambeshi Water and Sewerage Company.
  
  Mr Speaker, the source of water has been identified at the confluence of Mwawe and Kasungwe rivers. The original intake of the Choma River has been discontinued due to the turbidity of the water occasioned by mining activities at its source from the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC). Further, the farming activities by the villagers have made the river susceptible to rapid soil erosion which has affected the water quality and cost of treatment.

  Mr Speaker, the project is supervised by Messrs Allione Consulting Engineers in association with WCE Zambia Limited.

   I thank you, Sir.

Mr Ng’onga: Mr Speaker, when is this project scheduled to be completed?

Mr Kufuna: Mr Speaker, the project is scheduled to be completed in August, 2014.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lufuma: Mr Speaker, I hope I did not hear well, because from what the hon. Minister said, Tomorrow Investment …

Mr L. J. Ngoma: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr L. J. Ngoma: Mr Speaker, I rise on a very serious point of order bordering on the procedures of this House and in national interest.

Hon. MMD Member: It is very important.

Mr L. J. Ngoma: Mr Speaker, last week Tuesday, you directed His Honour the Vice-President to issue a ministerial statement on the whereabouts of our Republican President. In his response, His Honour the Vice-President was very categorical in saying that the President was in Israel on a working holiday. However, today, the Jerusalem Post …

Mr Livune: Not Zambian?

Mr L. J. Ngoma: ... and the Haaretz Newspaper in Israel are indicating something to the contrary.

Mr Muntanga: Sure?

Mr L. J. Ngoma: Mr Speaker, allow me to read out what the Jerusalem Post is indicating, for the sake of proof which I will finally lay on the Table. It reads:

“Zambian President, Michael Sata, was receiving medical treatment in Israel on Thursday, an Israeli official said without elaborating on his condition. This disclosure came a day after Zambian Vice-President, Guy Scott, told Parliament in Lusaka that Sata, 76, was in Israel on a working holiday.” 

Sir, furthermore, the Haaretz Newspaper also has a caption which reads:

“The President of Zambia is in Israel for medical treatment, Israeli officials confirmed, in contrast to statements by the Government in Lusaka that Michael Sata is on a working visit at the invitation of Israeli President Shimon Peres.” 

Mr Speaker, …

Interruptions

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

You are not supposed to do my work.

Mr L. J. Ngoma: Mr Speaker, is His Honour the Vice-President in order to mislead this House and the Zambian people at large by indicating that the President is on a working holiday whilst the he is receiving medical attention? Furthermore, is the PF Government in order to continuously perpetuate speculation and innuendos over the condition and whereabouts of his Excellency the Republican President?

Sir, allow me to lay these papers on the Table as proof.

Interruptions

Mr L. J. Ngoma laid the paper on the Table.

Mr Kambwili: What kind of newspaper is that? 

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

Let us pay attention. It is true that I had asked His Honour the Vice-President to come with a statement on the whereabouts of the President. In your point of order you have two issues. One is on the whereabouts of the President, which seems to be confirmed by the papers you have laid on the Table and the second aspect is on the health of the President.

Let me reiterate what I said. In a similar point of order on the health of the President, a ruling had been made by the Speaker that he could not compel the Executive to say anything on the health of the President because you appreciate, like most of us do, that that is the preserve of the individual. I will not delve into discussing the health of the President.

My advice is that we should take the answer given to the House as the real answer in terms of the President being in Israel.

Mr Lufuma: Mr Speaker, I hope I was not hearing well when the hon. Deputy Minister said Tomorrow Investments has been contracted to do the project under discussion. If you recall, Tomorrow Investments was blacklisted by the Government and is not supposed to be given any contracts.

Sir, why is Tomorrow Investments, which was blacklisted, still being given contracts?

Mr Kufuna: Mr Speaker, I am not aware of the blacklisting of Tomorrow Investments. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Kufuna: Sir, what I know is that this project was advertised and, according to the criteria which were set for procurement, Tomorrow Investments was awarded the contract.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Hamudulu: Mr Speaker, now that the hon. Minister has been reminded of the status of Tomorrow Investments, what is the ministry going to do? Is it going to go ahead with that contractor after the wisdom which has been passed on to them on the Floor of this House?

Mr Kufuna: Mr Speaker, can the hon. Member who is asking the question give me the evidence of the blacklisting.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Before the hon. Member of Parliament for Monze Central asks a question, it may help the House if the hon. Minister can shed light on the view that Tomorrow Investments was blacklisted.

Hon. Minister, address that issue when answering the question that will be raised by the hon. Member for Monze Central.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, there is a presumption that the Government has got institutional memory pertaining to the happenings in the country. The President of the Republic of Zambia then, His Excellency Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, came to this House and made a statement in which he gave a list of the contractors that were blacklisted. Tomorrow Investments was on the list which was even circulated. There have been complaints from a lot of constituencies pertaining to the failure by Tomorrow Investments to complete projects. Is the hon. Minister not aware of those issues?

The Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr Chenda): Mr Speaker, indeed, it is true to state that Tomorrow Investments had been blacklisted some time back. However, the information that is there is that they appealed and their blacklisting was uplifted.

Sir, let me go further to say that with regards to the construction of the water supply plant in Kaputa, there is a consultant that was engaged by the Government who is supposed to be the watchdog and supervisor for the contract. The report that we have received from the consultant is that this particular project is proceeding very well.

I thank you, Mr Speaker. {mospagebreak}

_____________

MOTIONS

REPORT OF THE PARLIAMENTARY SELECT COMMITTEE APPOINTED TO SCRUTNISE THE PRESIDENTIAL APPOINTMENT OF MR MUSA MWENYE, SC., TO SERVE AS ATTORNEY-GENERAL AND ABRAHAM MWANSA TO SERVE AS SOLICITOR-GENERAL OF THE REPUBLIC OF ZAMBIA

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that this House do adopt the Report of the Parliamentary Select Committee appointed to scrutinise the Presidential appointment of Mr Musa Mwenye, SC., to serve as Attorney-General of the Republic of Zambia and Mr Abraham Mwansa to serve as Solicitor-General of the Republic of Zambia, laid on the Table of the House on 18th June, 2014.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Ms Namugala (Mafinga): Yes, Mr Speaker.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, may I begin by raising your Committee’s concern that it was appointed to scrutinise the suitability of nominees for appointment to the offices of Attorney-General and Solicitor-General when, in fact, at the time of the scrutiny, these offices were not vacant.

Sir, at the time of scrutinising the suitability of the appointment of Mr Musa Mwenye, SC., as Attorney-General of Zambia, the Office of Attorney-General was held by Mr Mumba Malila, SC. At that time, Mr Malila’s suitability to be appointed to hold the position of Judge of the Supreme Court of Zambia was under Parliament scrutiny. As the House may recall, Mr Malila’s appointment to serve as Supreme Court Judge was only ratified last week, one month after your Committee was tasked the responsibility of scrutinising the suitability of his successor. Similarly, the Office of Solicitor-General for which your Committee was directed to scrutinise the suitability of Mr Abraham Mwansa is currently occupied by Mr Musa Mwenye, SC. It is your Committee’s well considered view that it is untidy and presumptuous to scrutinise and recommend the ratification of nominees to serve in offices that are not yet vacant, particularly, when the creation of such vacancies is subject to Parliament’s approval.

Sir, your Committee, however, did proceed with the work of scrutinising the suitability of the two candidates. In recognising, the critical role that the offices of the Attorney-General and Solicitor-General of the Republic of Zambia play, your Committee resolved that only persons who are competent and with unquestionable integrity, diligence, eminence, sound character and commitment to the promotion of justice and the rule of law should serve in these two positions. In this regard, your Committee carefully selected the witnesses to assist them scrutinise the suitability of the nominees to serve in the positions they were being appointed to. Your Committee requested memoranda from relevant state security agencies, professional bodies and other stakeholder organisations as well as from the appointing authority who, in this particular case, was represented by the hon. Minister of Justice.

Sir, the witnesses also appeared before your Committee to make their submissions and to add to their written memoranda. Further, your Committee interviewed the nominees and carefully scrutinised their curriculum vitae.

Mr Speaker, the appointment of the Attorney-General was made in accordance with Article 54

(i) of the Constitution of the Laws of Zambia which states as follows:

“There shall be an Attorney-General of the republic who shall be subject to ratification by the National Assembly, be appointed by the President and shall be:

(a) An ex-official member of Cabinet; and

(b) The principal legal adviser to Government.”

Mr Speaker, further, Article 54 (iv) states as follows:

“A person shall not be qualified to be appointed to the office of Attorney-General unless he or she is qualified for appointment as Judge of the High Court.”

Mr Speaker, all the state security agencies cleared the nominee stating that records in their possession did not show any adverse reports against Mr Musa Mwenye, SC., which could prevent his appointment to serve as Attorney-General of the Republic of Zambia.

Sir, your Committee further learnt from the various witnesses that Mr Musa Mwenye, SC., did not only hold the requisite qualifications for appointment as Attorney-General, as provided under Republican Constitution, but had also distinguished himself as a good legal practitioner.

Sir, your Committee also learnt that Mr Musa Mwenye, SC., was an experienced legal practitioner who had not only run a successful legal practice, but had ascended to hold the position of President of the Law Association of Zambia (LAZ) before his appointment to the position of Solicitor-General, a position which he is currently holding like I mentioned earlier.

Sir, your Committee further observed that the nominee possessed impeccable professional records and the requisite experience for appointment to the office of Attorney-General. It also observed that despite some criticisms over the manner he handled some matters during his tenure as Solicitor-General, the nominee had remained of high integrity and his competence was unquestionable.

Mr Speaker, senior positions like that of Attorney-General call for experience, good and favourable standing within the legal profession in order for the occupant of your office to command the necessary respect and, recognition and most importantly, for an independent and impartial mind. Your Committee, thus, observed that Mr Musa Mwenye, SC., had over the years acquired the requisite experience and attributes to serve as Attorney-General of the republic.

Sir, based on the foregoing, your Committee unreservedly supports the ratification of the nominee to serve as Attorney-General as it finds no legal basis or commission by him upon which to disqualify him.

Mr Speaker, it is in view of this that you Committee strongly recommends that the House ratifies the presidential appointment of this gallant legal practitioner, Mr Musa Mwenye, SC., to serve as Attorney-General of the Republic of Zambia.

Sir, allow me to move to the second nominee, Mr Abraham Mwansa. The appointment of Mr Abraham Mwansa as Solicitor-General of the Republic is being made pursuant to the provisions of Article 55 (1) of the Constitution of Zambia, cap (1) of the Laws of Zambia which states:
 
“there shall be a Solicitor-General of the Republic whose office shall be a public office and who shall, subject to ratification by the National Assembly, be appointed by the President.”

Mr Speaker, your Committee, in scrutinising the suitability of the nominee to serve as Solicitor- General of the Republic of Zambia, took into account the importance of the Office of Solicitor- General in the provision of legal advice to the Government.

Sir, I wish to report to you, and the House, that all the State security agencies informed your Committee that a search of their records had reviewed that there were no adverse  reports against the nominee in relation to criminal activities, drug trafficking, money laundering, drug abuse and corrupt practices. The State security agencies also confirmed to your Committee that the nominee was a Zambian citizen and would not pose any security risk to the nation if appointed to serve in this sensitive position of Solicitor-General.

Mr Speaker, I wish to state that although all the witnesses that appeared before your Committee talked warmly about the nominee’s professional qualifications and experience. There were some disconcerting views raised against the nominee in respect of the fact that he had been an active member of the Patriotic Front (PF). The witnesses were worried that he would be partial in the execution of his duties. These concerns were, however, allayed by the appointing authority and the nominee himself. The appointing authority informed your Committee that the dictates of the office of Solicitor-General would not accord the nominee an opportunity to discharge his duties in a partial manner. The nominee himself indicated that he is currently non- partisan …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: … and does not belong to any political party.

Interruptions

Mr Muntanga: Donchi kubeba.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Continue, hon. Member.

Mr Lubinda: For clarity Sir, I will repeat that sentence. The nominee indicated to your Committee that he is non-partisan and is currently not a member of any political party. He further pledged that he would discharge the duties of Solicitor-General diligently and without bias.

Mr Speaker, in conclusion, I would like, on behalf of your Committee, to strongly recommend to this House that this diligent citizen be ratified for appointment to this very important position of Solicitor-General.

Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Lubinda: Sir, allow me to thank the office of the Clerk of the National Assembly for the services and advice rendered to your Committee during its deliberations. The members of your Committee also wish to place on record their gratitude to you, Mr Speaker, for appointing them to undertake this honourable task of scrutinising the suitability of the nominees to serve as appointed. Your Committee further thanks the State security and investigative agencies, professional bodies and all other stakeholder institutions for appearing before your Committee. It also wishes to commend your nominees for their oral and written submissions which assisted your Committee in making a well-informed recommendation to the House.

Mr Speaker, allow me to commend members of your Committee for their dedication to duty and to the task that you gave them. They were not only diligent, but were extremely thorough and very well focused in executing their duty.

Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Speaker, without question, I beg to move.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Deputy Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Ms Namugala: Now, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker, I thank you for according me the opportunity to second the Motion on the ratification of Mr Musa Mwenye, SC., and Mr Abraham Mwansa to serve as Attorney-General and Solicitor-General of the Republic of Zambia, respectively.

Sir, allow me to thank the mover of the Motion and Chairperson of your Committee for the able manner in which he presided over the Committee’s deliberations and the manner in which he has highlighted the pertinent issues that are in your Committee’s report. Therefore, I will be very brief in seconding the Motion on the Floor.

Mr Speaker, the mover of the Motion has clearly stated the position of your Committee on these very important appointments. I, therefore, only wish to add that both appointees are mature, experienced and qualified to serve in the positions that they have been appointed to serve. Therefore, I simply wish to make an appeal to the appointees that the offices they are ascending to are critical for the promotion of good governance and the rule of law which are cornerstones of any democratic society. In this regard, they are strongly urged to exhibit competence, integrity, diligence, impartiality and independence in the execution of the functions of the offices to which they are being appointed.

Sir, as I conclude, allow me to thank the Clerk of the National Assembly and her staff for the invaluable support they rendered to your Committee during its proceedings. With these very few remarks, I beg to second.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, I would like to make submissions pertaining to the report of your Committee pertaining to the ratification of Mr Musa Mwenye, SC., and Mr Abraham Mwansa as Attorney-General and Solicitor-General, respectively.

  Sir, my line of debate will hinge on the functions of the Solicitor-General and the Attorney-General, as provided for under Article 54 and 55 of the Constitution of Zambia.

Mr Speaker, the two individuals’ ratification is being considered by Parliament during very trying moments in the Republic of Zambia. I would like to sympathise with the two individuals who are being considered for ratification because of the difficulties that have been encountered by previous Attorney-Generals and Solicitor-Generals in the discharge of their functions.  

Mr Speaker, it is a fact that these individuals are supposed to be chief legal advisors to the Government. The Government of the Republic of Zambia is made up of three wings: the Executive, which I will start with, the Judiciary and the Legislature.

Mr Speaker, hon. Members of the Opposition have noted with concern that, in the Executive, there are cantankerous …

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Mwiimbu: … garrulous and insidious individuals …

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Monze, I am not sure, but I think that ‘cantankerous’ is one of those words that is unparliamentary.

Please continue, but take my remark into account.

Mr Mwiimbu: … who have no feelings for members of the public and the nation at large.

Mr Speaker, such individuals, even when well-advised, will not accept the advice. They will refuse the advice with impunity and this is what we have noticed. We are aware that, currently, the country is grappling with the issue of the Constitution-making process. We are also aware that the Attorney-General’s Office is a cardinal player in this critical issue. We are aware also that various pieces of advice have been given to the Government and that it has decided, with impunity, to refuse the advice pertaining to the Constitution-making process.

Mr Mbewe: Ah!

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, this garrulous conduct …

Laughter

Mr Mwale: Galu?

Mr Mwiimbu: … cannot be accepted. We are all aware that this country has spent colossal amounts of money on this process. From the time we got Independence, we have been grappling with the issue of having a people-driven constitution.

Mr Mwale: Ministry of garrulous!

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: Sir, assurances have been given by parties when they are lobbying for votes. However, when it comes to the actualisation of the Constitution-making process, goalposts are shifted. When His Excellency the President and the hon. Minister of Justice came to this House, they gave us a very elaborate roadmap and assured us that when …

Dr Kaingu: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Dr Kaingu: Mr Speaker, I have been listening to the hon. Member of Parliament for Monze Central who came up with the term ‘garrulous’. Is it an adjective or a verb? Also, is it from the word ‘galu’ for it to be ‘garrulous’? Garrulous is an adjective. So is the verb ‘galu’? I seek your ruling, Sir.

Laughter

Mr Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Monze Central, you may continue.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I was saying …

Interruptions

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

Let us pay attention.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I was saying that when the President came to this House, he made a very elaborate statement and assured us that the Constitution-making process would be one that would be accepted by all members of the public. He further stated that when the process was concluded, the document would be simultaneously released to members of the public and to the Government and all of us assumed that this was because of the advice he received from the Attorney-General.

Sir, we were also told that the appointment of the committee was made under the Constitution of the Republic of Zambia. This was the statement that was made on the Floor of this House, and later, there was a change.

Mr Kambwili: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, I thank you for allowing me to rise on this serious point of order.

Mr Speaker, the report of your Committee is very straightforward. We are not discussing the Constitution-making process. Is the hon. Member of Parliament for Monze Central in order to belabour the point on the Constitution and not discuss the appointment of the two learned gentlemen? I seek your serious ruling.

Mr Deputy Speaker: I suppose that by the nature of the work that these two people perform, it may be difficult to compartmentalise the different issues which will be brought up.

Hon. Member for Monze Central, you may continue. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I am trying to create linkages between the offices and the individuals being appointed as well as advise them on the difficulties they will have in the execution of their duties. This is the point I am driving at.

Mr Livune: Garrulous!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I was saying that because of the pieces of advice we got on the Floor of this House that the committee was made under the Constitution, we took that it was the the Attorney-General who had advised the President well. Later on, the Government came back and said that the appointment was actually made under the Inquiries Act. This was another statement from the Government. We are also assuming that this is the advice of the Attorney-General. Therefore, when these individuals assume office, they must perform their duties diligently, professionally and to the expectations of the people of Zambia because these are constitutional offices and not party offices. They will be paid by the people of Zambia who will be looking to them for adequate representation. It may take time for them to take up office, assuming that we ratify them, because of what is prevailing at the moment. 

Mr Speaker, I would like to urge the Attorney-General who will be an ex-officio of the Cabinet to advise our colleagues on your right that it is misconduct for Cabinet Ministers to be quarrelling in public and differing over their ministerial portfolios.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Sir, it is misconduct to be lobbying party cadres to insult Cabinet Ministers because they are differing. We expect the Attorney-General to advise the Cabinet Ministers over such issues.

Mr Speaker, the people of Zambia will be expectant that once these appointees are ratified, if they will be ratified, they should ensure that there is fairness in the administration of justice. The administration of the Public Order Act must be done fairly.

Mr Speaker, what we have noticed is that the Attorney-General has been very quiet over the management of the Public Order Act. The Attorney-General is the officer of the Government who is sued when there is an abuse of the rights of individuals. It is incumbent upon the Attorney-General to advise so that the laws of the Republic of Zambia are implemented fairly.

Mr Speaker, we expect that the Attorney-General will act fairly for the good of this country. We expect that the Attorney-General to advise certain individuals in the Government who like belittling others like what happened yesterday on British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC) where one individual cast aspersions on others. He made racial remarks against the people of Southern Province whom he described as a minority tribe which was fomenting hatred in this country. It is that conduct that should never be allowed in this country. If we also rebutt those statements, we will be offside if we said that in fact the person who uttered the comments is from a minority grouping and is not even fit to hold the position he holds. Since we are civil, we will not say such things.

 Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, we are aware that it is a criminal offence in this country for anybody to promote tribal divisions. It is an offence to create racial divisions in the country. Now, because of their purported immunity, some people, with impunity, can insult others. Such garrulous behaviour cannot be tolerated.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: I hope the Attorney–General will take it upon himself to advise that individual.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.{mospagebreak}

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza (Solwezi West): Mr Speaker, I would like to thank you for allowing me to air my views on this important debate.

 Mr Speaker, I do not have any problems in underscoring what my dear brother, the hon. Member of Parliament for Kabwata, had indicated.

Sir, this Motion is very clear because we are supposed to ratify the appointment of the Mr Musa Mwenye, SC., to the position of Attorney-General and Abraham Mwansa to become Solicitor-General.

Sir, I have no problem with Mr Musa Mwenye, SC. He can be considered and ratified as Attorney-General, but I hold contrary views on the appointment of Mr Abraham Mwansa because he is a PF party cadre.

 Hon. MMD Members: Yes!

Mr Mwanza: Sir, he stood in Lubansenshi and lost elections.

Hon. MMD Members: Aah!

Mr Mwanza: Sir, yes, he did so. He is a party cadre.

Mr Mukanga: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, you have always reminded us to be factual when debating on issues on the Floor of this House, but the hon. Member of Parliament who is on the Floor is not being factual. Is he in order to insinuate that Mr Abraham Mwansa was a parliamentary candidate for the PF in Lubansenshi when the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) records do not show that.

Interruptions

 Mr Mukanga: Sir, the PF candidate, then, was Mr Lazarus Chota. Is the hon. Member in order to mislead not only this House, but the whole nation that the PF is bringing in party cadres in the Civil Service when Mr Abraham Mwansa did not even contest the elections? I need your serious ruling.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

Let us be mindful of one thing here. The hon. Member for Solwezi West should take into account the point of order raised by the hon. Minister as he debates. He should also know that in the report of the mover, there is information to the effect that some of the witnesses had expressed doubt on the fact that this member could have been a PF member, but not that he was. In the mover’s Motion, there is reference to that aspect.

Mr Mwanza: Mr Speaker, I would like to thank you for the guidance. In fact, I would like to settle this once and for all by quoting what is on Page 17 of the report.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza: Mr Speaker, it clearly says:

“Abraham Mwansa, a member of the PF and had applied for adoption as a parliamentary candidate for Lubansenshi.”

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza: Sir, I am not talking from without. What I am saying is contained in the report. Therefore, he is a cadre.

Interruptions

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

  Hon. Members, if you want to debate, you are supposed to indicate and you can come and refute what the hon. Member for Solwezi West is saying. For now, he has the Floor. Therefore, let the debate flow

Mr Mwanza: Mr Speaker, I want to say that on Page 17 of your Committee’s Report, Mr Abraham Mwansa confessed to the Committee that he was a member of the PF, …

Mr Kambwili: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Dr Kaingu: Aah, this man!

Mr Kambwili: Kozo!

Hon. Opposition Members: What is that Kozo?

Mr Kambwili: Kozo Lodge.

Mr Speaker, I would like to find out whether the hon. Member speaking is in order to refuse to ratify somebody as either Solicitor-General or, indeed, as Attorney-General based on their political affiliation? It is on record that Hon. George Kunda, SC., held the position of Attorney-General and Minister despite being a member of the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD). Is the hon. Member in order to start talking against things that they did when they were in Government?

I need your serious ruling, Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Please, we have the report and a lot of things are said in that report. So, people in this House are at liberty to address themselves to what is contained in the report. I think that if you have a contrary view, you can indicate and offer a counter argument. Let us not try to derail the debate. If anybody is making reference to the report, let us not argue. You can come and offer your counter argument.

Hon. Member, you may continue.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza: Mr Speaker, before that point of order was raised, I was saying that on Page 17 of your Committee’s report, there was an admission by Mr Abraham Mwansa that he was a member of the PF.

Interruptions

Mr Mwanza: Sir, I want to say that generally, Mr Abraham Mwansa was not adopted as they are saying. However, I would like to advise those people whose appointments we are going to ratify today that they should ensure that they give correct advice to the Government through the Minister of Justice. If they do that, they are going to be of service to the people of Zambia. This is because the PF Government appears not to follow procedures and advice. In this particular instance, the mover of the Motion has said that the appointing authority did not send the Minister of Justice with a note or a letter to confirm that he was going to speak for and on behalf of the Government. He just went there on his own and started talking the way he did as indicated in the report.

Sir, this is not right. I would also like to say that those appointees we are going to ratify should make sure that they study the judgments and deliver them in good time. Many times, court judgments have not been delivered on time, but they are delayed as people anxiously await these judgments. As I speak, I have in mind the hon. Member for Masaiti whose case is in court and the lawyer is this same Mr Abraham Mwansa.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Mwanza: Sir, the PF petitioned the Masaiti Parliamentary Constituency seat and the lawyer is Mr Abraham Mwansa. So if that is not being partisan, then I do not know what we mean by being partisan. That judgment has not been delivered and so, what will happen? This is a person who is going to be the Government’s advisor as they discuss this matter. With this inclination of being a lawyer for the PF contender, it is also not right for such a person to be appointed as Solicitor-General of the Republic of Zambia. It is not right.

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Mr Mwanza: Mr Speaker, on behalf of the hon. Members on your left, I would like to say that as far as we are concerned, we are not going to support the candidature of this Abraham Mwansa.

Laughter

Mr Mwanza: Sir, there are two seats that have been nullified on account of, …

Hon. MMD Member: Abraham Mwansa.

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: On account of corruption.

Mr Mwanza: …flimsy grounds and it is in our best interest that whoever will be appointed Solicitor-General and Attorney-General, respectively, should deal with these cases expeditiously and properly because the affected constituencies are suffering. Currently, in the Eastern Province, Petauke, Malambo, Kasenengwa and Vubwi constituencies have had no representation for over a year. The Constitution says that when a parliamentary seat is declared vacant, a decision to ensure that there is representation in such constituencies must be made within three months. Now, I do not know what the PF Government means when it says it respects the rule of law. Is this the rule of law?

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Mr Mwanza: Mr Speaker, this is disenfranchising the ordinary people in the villages who want to ask questions, but cannot do so because the elections have been delayed by the PF Government. I want to say that my rejection of Mr Abraham Mwansa is very clear and is based on principle. My reasons for rejecting him are because, firstly, he is a party cadre, secondly he is a practising lawyer defending PF petitioners in court and one of them is the hon. Member sitting there, (pointing at an hon. MMD Member). I am not joking. It is true.

Laughter

Mr Mwanza: Sir, thirdly, Mr Mwansa and Mr Musa Mwenye, SC., come from one region. This is not fair. I would have liked to see a name from another region.

Mr Mwanza: Sir, we cannot allow, …

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, let me guide the House. I think let us just zero in on something that will help us arrive at a decision and not bringing in issues that may not help us as a country. Otherwise, we will go astray.

Hon. Member, you may continue.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza: Mr Speaker, I am speaking from the bottom of my heart.

Hon. UPND Member: All of us.

Mr Mwanza: Mr Speaker, Solwezi West Parliamentary Constituency will definitely not support, …

Mr Kambwili rose.

Mr Chilangwa: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Hon. Opposition Members interjected.

Mr Kambwili resumed his seat.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

Interruptions

Mr Deputy Speaker: You are not in this Chair. I am in the Chair. I have not even, …

Interruptions

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

There has to be discipline. We cannot continue like this. Otherwise, we will go astray. Even before I indicate who I am giving the point of order to, you begin making noise. It is bad manners. Hon. Chilangwa, you may have your point of order.

Mr Chilangwa: Mr Speaker, thank you for allowing me to raise this point of order. I rise with a very heavy heart. Is the hon. Member of Parliament for Solwezi West in order to come in here and bring tribal sentiments which are archaic, without laying the facts on the table. The two people whose appointments we are here to ratify come from two different regions of Zambia, …

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

Your point of order lapses.

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.

     [THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the Chair]

Mr Mwanza: Mr Speaker, I want to say that I have been extremely dismayed by the conduct of the hon. Minister of Youth and Sport who came to the table where I was having tea to disturb me because I was …

Prof. Luo: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Prof. Luo: Mr Speaker, thank you very much for according me this opportunity to raise this point of order and I do it with a heavy heart. Is the hon. Member of Parliament debating in order to distinguish himself as the tribalist of the year by speaking against a particular region? This is where he is married from and went to school and yet he continues every time to speak against this region.

The Deputy Chairperson: You have debated your point of order.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Mwanza: Mr Speaker, I was saying that I am completely dismayed by the conduct of the hon. Minister of Youth and Sport who came charging at me as I sat down …

Mr Kambwili: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, I stand on a serious point of order. Is the hon. Member of Parliament on the Floor in order to start discussing me and not the report? He has been given an opportunity to discuss the report and not an individual.

The Deputy Chairperson: Since this is the second point of order on the hon. Member debating, I will not make a ruling on that.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza: Mr Speaker, I was saying that I am disappointed with the behaviour of the hon. Minister of Youth and Sport for charging at me as I was having my tea.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Perhaps let us guide each other. May you, please, debate the report. We have channels which we can follow when incidents like the one you want to narrate happen. So, debate the report.

Mr Mwanza: Mr Speaker, thank you for that guidance. I was saying that I do not support the appointment of Mr Abraham Mwenya because …

Laughter

Mr Mwanza: Sorry, Mr Abraham Mwansa, because, first of all, he is a party cadre and, secondly, he is currently a lawyer representing the PF in some cases in court. I doubt if he is going to advise the judges correctly. To this effect, I wish to submit that the only time we have been given to talk about these officers is when their names have come for ratification. That is when we can mention them by name. Otherwise, we are not allowed to do so by our rules. Accordingly, that is why I have been at pains to mention that this particular individual, Mr Mwenye, cannot move …

Interruptions

Mr Mwanza: Sorry, it is Mr Mwansa. I want to make it very clear that my background is well known. I am well established and I was brought up on the Copperbelt. I lived in Luapula for many years and I am married to a Bemba. So, Mr Mwansa Kapeya cannot …

Mr Kapeya: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Laughter

Mr Kapeya: Mr Speaker, thank you very much for allowing me to raise this point of order. Is Hon. Mwanza in order to start mentioning the name of a person who is not appearing in the report? Who is Mr Mwenya? I need your serious ruling.

The Deputy Chairperson: The serious ruling is that it was a slip of the tongue.

Interruptions

Mr Mwanza: Mr Speaker, please, let us have fairness here. I plead with my colleagues to make sure that they listen to the good and bad things that I have to say. That is the perseverance they must have as hon. Ministers and hon. Members of the PF. They must be accessible to all these facts. They should not only listen to good things always being said. That is why they are making that noise because what I am saying is not agreeable to them. I, however, think the people of Zambia out there are listening and know exactly what I am talking about.

Hon. PF Members: Question!

Mr Mwanza: Mr Speaker, having said all this, I want to urge all our colleagues here not to support Abraham Mwenya …

Laughter

Mr Mwanza: Mr Abraham Mwansa, sorry again. I know our colleagues across have the advantage of numbers, but the numbers are nothing compared to the fact that the people of Zambia are listening to what I am saying. So, Mr Abraham Mwansa, no deal. As for the other man, I simply have no objection. We can consider his ratification.

With these few remarks, I would like to urge the hon. Members of the Executive to ensure that they follow the rule of law. Without the rule of law, this country will collapse. The Solicitor-General must give concrete advice. When the President is going abroad, it is this office to advise on what the President should do out there. If he does not do this, it is wrong. We are saying that it is one Zambia, one nation. One Zambia …

Hon. Opposition Members: One nation!

Mr Mwanza: Thank you, Sir.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Anyway, I hope you are aware that we do not allow slogans in here.

The Deputy Minister for Southern Province (Mr Munkombwe): Mr Speaker,

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Munkombwe: Mr Speaker, I thank you for according me this opportunity to say a few words regarding these two honourable members of our society whose appointments we are going to ratify. I want to recognise from the outset …

Mr Chilangwa: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

You were given a chance to raise a point of order which lapsed. So you are not being given a chance again.

Mr Munkombwe: Mr Speaker, I want to recognise the mature debate, apart from some cantankerous speakers who were ruled out of order and other strong words …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The use of the word ‘cantankerous’ is unparliamentary.

Mr Munkombwe: Sorry, Sir. I mean the debates which have been ruled out of order.

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: Apart from that, I think Hon. Mwiimbu, today, debated properly …

Hon. UPND Members: Always!

Mr Munkombwe: … by advising us to be strong and not to take sides in whatever we do. I live in the midst of the Opposition. However, when I am executing Government functions, I am fair. So, when we are being told to be impartial and strong without necessarily saying one particular person is not supposed to be ratified …

Mr Antonio interjected.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, hon. Member for Kaoma!

Mr Munkombwe: Mr Speaker, once we narrow ourselves into sections and so on, the then, we cease to be national.

Hon. Government Members: Yes!

Mr Munkombwe: Sir, I doubt whether there is anybody who is schooled or learned, who is secretly not aligned to any political party.

Sir, it is not normal to think that people can be neutral.

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: Sir, it is not fair. In fact the worst people are those who pretend that they are neutral when they do the opposite. Those are the worst people.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: Mr Speaker, I like people who are straightforward and one of them is Hon. Jack Mwiimbu.

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: Sir, when you accept any responsibility in the Government, then be straightforward. The fact that one person wanted to contest an election should not be a problem. For him to admit that he belonged to a particular party, that is honesty and should not be a problem.

Mr Mwila: Yes!

Mr Munkombwe: The silent ones are the worst…

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: … ones because they do not show what they are and yet they belong to a system which you know. I want to think that when we are considering the appointees, we should analyse whether they have the requisite experience. Do they have sufficient experience to manage such difficult offices? If the answer is yes, then let us support their appointments.

Mr Speaker, the Attorney-General is supposed to interpret the law fairly and advise the Government of the day appropriately.

 Mr Speaker, we are setting a precedent which cannot be sustained. There are many people holding positions who belong to one tribe.

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

Mr Munkombwe: If they qualify, what do you do?

Hon. Government Members: You give them.

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

Mr Munkombwe: Well, I am a Tonga. I do not know whether I am a minority, but …

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: … not even one day, has Hon. Jack Mwiimbu said that he was against my appointment. Let me interpret what Hon. Mwiimbu said in simpler language.  He simply urged the people whose appointments we are going to ratify to be strong.

Hon. Government Members: Yes!

Mr Munkombwe: Sir, they should avoid being biased. I thought that was the tone of his debate. If you say that we should not ratify the appointment of Mr Abraham Mwansa, then you are dictating to the hon. Members that they should follow whatever you say. That is wrong in a democracy.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: Like I am doing.

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: Sir, I am telling the truth.

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: Sir, the truth is that these people are qualified for the positions. It does not matter where they come from. After all, one comes from Luapula Province and the other one from the Northern Province.

Hon. Opposition Members: North. They are from the same region.

Mr Munkombwe: Sir, thus, to link them together so that you condemn them as coming from one area is being unfortunate.

Mr Mwenya: The other one is a Soli.

Mr Munkombwe: Sir, the other one is a Soli by the way. He is part of us. Yes.

Mr Mubukwanu: Bantu Botatwe.

Mr Munkombwe: Sir, he is part of our grouping. Anyway, those of you who slice yourselves in groups, …

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: … you should know that Soli is part of us. Part of the greater Bantu Botatwe.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: Sir, in fact, they should be proud that one of them is being appointed to a high office. So, who do you want to reject?

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutelo (Lukulu West): Mr Speaker, I will dwell on the report as I am adding the voice of Lukulu West to this debate.

Mr Munkombwe: You are just a councillor.

Mr Mutelo: Sir, what we are today is as a result of what we were yesterday and what we shall be tomorrow will be a result of what we are doing today.

Ms Lubezhi: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Let us guide one another. We have a lot of business on the order paper. I hope the points of order which you intend to raise from time to time will fall within the acceptable perimeters.

Ms Lubezhi: Mr Speaker, I stand on a procedural point of order. Is the nominated Member of Parliament, Hon. Munkombwe, in order to say that the elected hon. Member of Parliament for Lukulu West, Hon. Mutelo who is on the Floor, is a councillor …

Interruptions

Ms Lubezhi: … when he is an hon. Member of Parliament, is he in order, Sir?

I need your serious ruling.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Mwiimbu: Even you, you are a councilor.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Due to the noise which is coming from both my left and my right, I did not follow that contribution.

May the Hon. Member for Lukulu West, please continue.

Mr Mutelo: Mr Speaker, the Executive Director of the Foundation for Democratic Process (FODEP) explained to your Committee that at the request of the Ministry of Justice, Hon. Wynter Kabimba, SC., Mr Musa Mwenye, SC., as a public officer rendered a legal opinion to be used for partisan and private purposes. This had resulted in Mr Musa Mwenye, SC., appearing and testifying before the Roydah Kaoma Tribunal to clarify why he rendered an opinion intended for use by a political party.

  Sir, public servants should cease to be partisan publicly. They may be partisan, but should not be showing it publicly. If not, then we are setting a precedent for the future when our colleagues who are on your right hand side will leave that space for those who are on your left hand side.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutelo: Sir, the Executive Director further submitted that if Mr Mwenye, SC., had valued his position as Solicitor-General, he would have facilitated the completion of draft legislation such as the Freedom of Information (FoI) Bill.

Mr Speaker, your report further indicates that the two nominees advocated for the change of the Constitution processes, but have grown cold feet and, now, they have to be Attorney-General and Solicitor-General, respectively. They have grown cold feet on what they advocated for when it was not yet their time to be in power and, now, the Constitution making process has no plan.

Hon. UPND Member: It is nowhere.

Mr Mutelo: Sir, the two nominees were among the people who advocated for the change of the Constitution when they were not yet in the Government. As I said, we are a result of what we were yesterday because what you do always follows you. How are we going to regard someone who advocated for change of the Constitution and then grows cold feet?

Sir, Page 22 of your report also has this to say:

“Your Committee further observes that while the hon. Minister of Justice represented the appointing authority, there was no written communication to the National Assembly from the appointing authority designating the hon. Minister of Justice to appear before your Committee and make the submission on the nominees on his behalf. Your Committee recommends that this anomaly should be rectified in future proceedings.”

Mr Speaker, this is even touching your Select Committee.  The way we are doing things might look good because we are on the right hand side of the Speaker today. It is reminiscent of the enactment of a law that made the crime of theft of motor vehicles unbailable and then those who had made such a law found themselves in the cold.

Laughter

Mr Mutelo: What you are doing today will be the very net we will use against you.

Mr Speaker, your Committee further submits and I quote:

“Your Committee, after due and thorough consideration, analysis and evaluation of the written and oral submissions presented to it by the witnesses and the interviewers with the nominees, is of the view that both nominees are qualified and suitable to serve in the positions they have been nominated for appointment.”

Mr Speaker, as rightly stated on Page 1, a nomination, whether by an hon. Minister or the President, is subject to ratification by Parliament. In Zambia, for almost three years, Parliament did not ratify a name and the position is held in an acting capacity to date.

Hon. Members: What?

Mr Mutelo: Sir, this means that the work we are doing now is only acceptable if it goes with what has been directed and Parliament is rendered irrelevant in the sense that if it ratifies, the decision is acceptable but if does  not, like it did not some two and half years ago, …

Mr Muntanga: Yes, the Chief Justice.

Mr Belemu: He has a point.

Interruptions

Mr Mutelo: Sir, it is now almost three years since Parliament refused to ratify that appointment, but it has been claimed that the incumbent is in an acting capacity. Why do we continue to do this?

Mr Speaker, I will be very brief.

Laughter

Mr Mutelo: When Parliament resolves not to ratify a nominee, that decision should be respected. Otherwise, the three arms of the Government will not exist in Zambia in the real sense. They will just be appearing on paper.

Hon. UPND Member: Doom!

Mr Mutelo: If that will be the case, someone is spelling ‘doom’.

Laughter

Mr Mutelo: Sir, then there will not be the three arms of the Government. We will have just one. The Attorney-General and the Solicitor-General must have the firmness they need. If the Executive will be overbearing and directing them at will, their work will be stressful and a total burden on them.

Mr Speaker, allow me to end here.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mtolo (Chipata Central): Mr Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity to debate. I will take very few minutes to contribute to the Motion on the Floor.

Sir, our beautiful country, Zambia, does not lack people with high qualifications. Actually, what we need in this country are men of high esteem, who are fearless and are ready to give guidance to those who occupy high offices.

Ms Lubezhi: Hear, hear!

Mr Mtolo: Mr Speaker, the Judiciary, at the moment, is at serious crossroads. Actually, the Judiciary is in court against itself.

Hon. UPND Member: Yes!

Mr Mtolo: Sir, it is in court against itself because there is no proper guidance amongst our learned colleagues. That is a very big source of concern. I think that in this House, regardless of the parties that we belong to, we must be able to analyse issues in a mature and sober manner so that we come up with decisions which will be binding for the time that they are meant to be. Otherwise, come another Government, some of the people we are ratifying will be taken out of office because of the issues which are being brought up.

Mr Speaker, we need men, for the two positions, who are of such stature that they will be fearless enough to correct the many ills that we are seeing in our country. In your report, the Attorney-General’s principal role has been defined very clearly as the principal legal advisor to the Government. He is also an ex-officio of Cabinet. Therefore, it is not a small position, but a very senior one and, so, follows that of the other colleague we are trying to ratify. Definitely, the qualifications of both men are unquestionable, and I am sure that the Committee tried very seriously to look at issues which will really matter as we scrutinise these colleagues. I have a few examples which I would like to bring to the House.

Mr Speaker, the first example is about the Constitution. Have we got the right guidance from the people from these offices? The answer seems to be in the negative. We have an issue which has become so hot that people have become afraid to talk about it, and that is the Barosteland Agreement. Where is the clear guidance to the nation on this issue? It is not there. Therefore, we almost have a nation within a nation. Where are our legal professionals in this matter? We have another issue which has been discussed, and that is the Public Order Act.

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

Mr Mtolo: Definitely, if you belong to the Opposition …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, I reluctantly rise to make this point of order.

Mr Speaker, I appreciate that my colleague does not know what it takes to be part of the Government. These two officials we are going to ratify this evening are just part of the Government. My dear colleague, the hon. Member on the Floor has been part of the group of people who have been demanding for a people-driven Constitution. Why does he want to bring issues which are not part of the report? He is talking about issues such as the Barotseland Agreement. Is he in order to start propagating anarchy in his debate when the report is very clear? I seek your serious ruling. We have a lot of business to finish.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The serious ruling is that the hon. Member debating is in order and he is not advocating any anarchy.

You may continue, Hon. Mtolo.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mtolo: Mr Speaker, I thank you very much for that very clear and precise guidance, which we so much desire and need in this House.

Mr Speaker, Page 1, Paragraph 3 and item (b) of the report, indicates that the Attorney-General shall be “the principal legal advisor to the Government.” These are not my words. I thought it was important for my cousin to take note of that.

Mr Speaker, I will continue with my list of issues on which we need guidance and which I feel that we are not receiving that guidance on. We have issues of chiefs whose cases have been ruled on by the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court has ruled that they cannot be appointed as chiefs, but the Government has appointed such chiefs. Where are these officers who are supposed to provide guidance? Why are they not guiding the appointing authority and telling them that this an error because if they do not do this, in the long run,  they will be embarrassing the people in authority for having made such an error because the people below them are not giving them the necessary guidance. Whoever we appoint to these positions should be fearless and have the necessary integrity to guide accordingly. This issue of chiefs who have been prevented by the Supreme Court from being eligible to be appointed as chiefs is real in many of our regions in the country.

Mr Speaker, there is another issue where we have seen lack of guidance from the people who are in these offices. As indicated earlier, we have nine constituencies where we do not have hon. Members of Parliament. The Constitution is very clear.  We are supposed to have a new hon. Member of Parliament three months after a seat has been declared vacant. However, it is almost a year since these seats were nullified, but we do not have hon. Members of Parliament. Who should we blame? The blame goes to these people who are appointed to guide and inform the President or the appointing authority accordingly.

Mr Speaker, we also have another issue whereby the Judiciary seems to be against itself. We have had a number of cases were an hon. Member of Parliament has won a petition at the High Court. When he goes to the Supreme Court, however, he loses. At the High Court, there is no report saying that that person was corrupt. There is a serious conflict between the two courts. You will find that the courts are tied and cannot give a ruling. Up to now, we still have people who are not represented in this house. Where are the officers to guide the people or correct such errors so that these lacunas are avoided?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mtolo: Mr Speaker, when are we going to have men who will stand up and guide the Executive properly and tell them not to go for these unnecessary petitions because, if they do, in the end, this is the likely outcome? Where are these men of integrity? That is the type of character we should be looking for in these people.

Mr Speaker, I can go on giving examples, but I think I have made my point that we do not seem to have men who have the necessary calibre to advise the Executive and the Judiciary to be above board.

Mr Speaker, I have no problem with the first name, but just like Hon. Mwanza indicated, I definitely have a problem with sitting here and supporting the name of a person who will fail to advise on these issues which I have pointed out because of the political affiliation. We should not allow a situation like we have, where we ratified a name here under controversy and now that case is in Court as we are talking now. We should avoid these things. Therefore, without being hesitant or misunderstood, we should, as a House, appoint people who have no blemish, who are spot free, who are clean and who will not be doubted by the community of our lovely country, Zambia.

Mr Speaker, with those few remarks, I would like to say that with this proviso on the last name, let me say that I have no problem with the first name.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwewa (Mwansabombwe): Mr Speaker, I thank you very much for granting me this opportunity to add my voice to this important Motion on the Floor of the House this evening.

Mr Speaker, I wish to congratulate your Committee for the work it has done, and I also appreciate the comments of the Chairperson of the Committee, the hon. Member for Kabwata. That was very good.

Mr Speaker, I wish to comment on the appointment of Musa Mwenya,  SC., …

Hon. Members: Mwenye!

Mr Mwewa: … as Attorney-General. I have read the report of the Committee, and I have noted that all the witnesses supported the candidate’s appointment as Attorney-General. I have also perused his curriculum vitae and it is very impressive. He is a man of high esteem. He is fearless. He is an advocate of the courts of Zambia. He is also admitted as a Solicitor of England and Wales. He holds a practicing licence to practice both in Zambia and England and Wales. In addition, he has extensive experience in law and has served in various capacities. He was president of the Law Association of Zambia (LAZ) as we heard from the Chairperson, and he also served as judicial officer when he was a Judge at the Small Claims Court. This candidate has also received acclaim by Chamber Global as a top notch lawyer in Zambia.

Mr Speaker, let me explain a bit about Chamber Global. This is a publication that conducts surveys of consumers of legal services in different countries, and then it picks the one that it thinks is the best provider of legal services. Mr Musa Mwenya, SC., was picked as the best.

Hon. Members: Mwenye!
 
Mr Speaker, this candidate has also served as Honorary Secretary of LAZ and Vice-Chairperson of the Disciplinary Committee of the Health Professions Council of Zambia.

Sir, socially, let me say that the candidate is known to be a committed family man who is a Christian and whose integrity is guided by his Christian principles. At one time, I went to church with him and he gave a contribution to the church with all his heart.

Laughter

Mr Mwewa: Mr Speaker, it is difficult to attract and keep people of Mr Musa Mwenye’s calibre in the Public Service. In this fast moving world where most of the agreements which the Government signs have clauses that require international arbitration, it is important that the PF Government continues to attract people who have qualifications and have practised law, not only in Zambia, but also in the financial capitals such as London, New York and Paris where Mr Musa Mwenye has been practising.

Hon. Members: Mwenye!

Mr Mwewa: Mr Musa Mwenye has due qualifications and is, therefore, suitably qualified for the modern challenges that meet the Office of the Attorney-General.

Mr Hamudulu: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Hamudulu: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Member who is on the Floor in order to continuously read from the piece of paper that he is holding as though he is an hon. Minister responding to the debates of Back Benchers? Maybe, he has forgotten that he is no longer an hon. Minister. Is he in order, Sir?

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: If, in fact, the hon. Member debating was reading a prepared text, then, to that extent he may be out of order. However, if he was merely referring to copious notes then, he may have been in order. I am unable to ascertain from here exactly what he is doing.

Laughter

Mr Mwewa: Mr Speaker, Mr Musa Mwenya, SC., …

Hon. Members: Mwenye!

Mr Mwewa: … Mwenye …

The Deputy Chairperson: That shows that he is not reading.

Laughter

Mr Mwewa: Sir, all the State Counsels who were invited to make submissions indicated that Mr Mwenye, SC., was the best candidate for the job. He is a professional of a sober mind. The endorsement of the candidate by LAZ cannot go without notice by this august House.

Sir, when the PF Government took over office, we found that the Permanent Secretary in the Ministry of Mines was also sitting on the boards of different mining companies and Mr Musa Mweya, SC. …

Hon. Members: Mwenye!

Mr Mwewa: … gave legal advice and, today, I can assure you that no Permanent Secretary sits on the boards of those mining companies because they compromise their work.

Sir, last year, First Quantum Mine, sued this country for millions of dollars and Mr Musa Mwenye, SC., gave sound advice to this Government which it followed.

Mr Muntanga: Which one?

Mr Mwewa: Sir, that case was withdrawn. We are happy that the case was closed last year in December because of his advice.

Sir, as I conclude, I must emphasise that the Office of the Attorney-General must not only be viewed in light of political cases, but must be looked at from the modern era that we are in where we need people that can take responsibility and protect the financial interests of Zambia.

Mr Speaker, yesterday, we were talking about the concept of public-private partnerships (PPPs) and the how the MMD Government messed up …

Hon. MMD Members: Aah!

The Deputy Chairperson: The phrase ‘mess up’ is unparliamentary. May you withdraw that and substitute it with an appropriate one.

Mr Mwewa: Mr Speaker, I withdraw phrase.

Sir, having people like Mr Musa Mwenye, SC., with their kind of soberness will help us enter different agreements which are necessary for the development of mother Zambia.

Sir, I fully support the appointment of Mr Musa Mwenya, SC., and his counterpart, …

Laughter

Mr Mwewa: … Mr Abraham Mwansa as Solicitor-General.

The Minister of Home Affairs (Dr Simbyakula): Mr Speaker, just for the record, the two nominees are Mr Abraham Mwansa who hails from Northern Province, Luwingu, to be precise, and Mr Musa Mwenye, not Mwenya, State Counsel who hails from Chongwe.

Sir, permit me to take this occasion to commend your Committee for the thorough job it did in scrutinising the presidential appointments of Mr Musa Mwenye, SC., and Mr Abraham Mwansa as Attorney-General and Solicitor-General, respectively. Allow me to also thank all hon. Members in this august House who have debated the Motion on the Floor, whether for or against the Motion. That is what democracy is all about.

Mr Speaker, as we have heard from the mover of the Motion and as we have read from your Committee’s report, there are absolutely no adverse reports against any of the two nominees from the State security agencies.

Sir, the curriculum vitae of these two nominees speak for themselves. All the witnesses from the institutions that testified before your Committee all spoke in glowing terms in favour of the two nominees with respect to their suitability for appointment to these high offices. Their competence is beyond question.

Mr Speaker, the two nominees command very high respect in the legal fraternity. Mr Mwansa and Mr Mwenye, SC., have all served as council members of LAZ. Mr Mwenye, SC., in fact, rose to the position of President of LAZ. They, therefore, command very high respect amongst their peers in the legal field and I can vouch for their competence as the two happen to be my former students. I have personally known them from the time they entered the law school, in their teenage years in the mid-1990s. Their work was of very high calibre. It gives me immense pride and joy to have observed them over the years and to also see how they have blossomed to what they are now from those years at the University of Zambia Law School. They are very fine lawyers. It actually leaves me speechless to participate in their ratification to these high offices.  

Hon. Government Members: Teacher wa ma teacher.

Hon. Kambwili: Mfundisi!

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Speaker, as hon. Members would have seen from their curriculum vitae, these two people have a wealth of experience. The Constitution simply says that a person qualifies to those offices if they are qualified to be appointed as a Judge. Under the Constitution, a person is qualified to be appointed as a Judge if they have ten years experience at the Bar. Mr Mwansa has seventeen years and Mr Mwenye, SC., has fifteen years of experience at the Bar.  In fact, both of them qualify to be Supreme Court Judges. As I conclude, I would like to urge all hon. Members to support the ratification of these fine sons of the soil.

Mr Speaker, with those few words, I would like to thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, I would like, on behalf of your Committee, to thank all the hon. Members who took interest in this matter. I want to thank them for their contributions and also to thank the hon. Minister of Home Affairs for that very eloquent presentation of the two nominees. I just want to allay two fears. The first one was registered by my colleague, Hon. Jack Mwiimbu about Cabinet Ministers taking advice from the Attorney-General and Solicitor-General. If Hon. Jack Mwiimbu would read the report a little bit more, he would find out that the two candidates did mention that their roles are limited to providing advice. The rest is up to the ones who are recipients of that advice. They will continue to do that. They assured us that they will not fear to do that. They will provide that advice. How the advice is used is beyond their remedy and I do not think it will be fair for us to judge them against how their advice is used.

Mr Speaker, when Mr Musa Mwenye, SC., who, today, we are hoping will be ratified to the position of Attorney-General was asked whether he had rendered advice on certain matters and he did indicate that in their profession, there is what is referred to as the lawyer-client relationship which bars them from disclosing to any other party the kind of advice they render to their clients. Therefore, we cannot ask whether, indeed, the Solicitor-General, Mr Musa Mwenye, SC, did render any advice on the matters that Hon. Mtolo raised. As a Committee, we are confident that these two citizens are well-qualified, fearless and, indeed, up to the task. I would, therefore, like to appeal to all my colleagues in the House that we ratify these two appointments not considering where they come from or whether they belong to bantu botatwe, but because they are well-qualified citizens who shall render service to the country with diligence.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, I would like to appeal to all of us to unanimously ratify the appointment of Mr Musa Mwenye, SC., and Mr Abraham Mwansa to the positions of Attorney-General and Solicitor-General of the Republic of Zambia, respectively.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Question put and agreed to.

REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE ON ECONOMIC AFFAIRS, ENERGY AND LABOUR

(Debate resumed)

The Minister of Labour and Social Security (Mr Shamenda): Mr Speaker, from the outset, I would like to pay tribute to the Committee for a very well-documented and, indeed, informative report. I would like to support the observation made by Hon. Sichinga on the Floor of this House last Thursday that it seems the Committee has read the PF Manifesto and understood its implementation. I also acknowledge with gratitude that the selection of topics the Committee made are in line with the direction the PF Government has taken in steering our country to greater heights. This is the way to go.

Mr Speaker, it is gratifying to note that the Committee took time to understand how the Government monitored job creation in the country. I am happy that the Committee has appreciated the mechanism for collecting social and economic data and offered invaluable advice to the Government on how to improve the efficiency and effectiveness of the mechanisms. As the Government, we will seriously take on board the various observations and recommendations made by the Committee.

Sir, I wish to take this opportunity to inform this House that the 2014 Labour Force Survey is already underway. Additionally, the Government is working towards conducting this survey annually as opposed to every two years. I would like to commend the Committee for making time to visit some of our district labour offices to appreciate the work they do and also to see the challenges these field offices are faced with. In my 2014 Policy Statement made to this House in support of the 2014 budget for my ministry, I highlighted that the capacity of my ministry, in terms of manpower to carry out regular labour inspections throughout the country, still remained law.

I wish to state, however, that the budgetary allocation to my ministry has been increasing from 2012 through to 2014. We are addressing some of these challenges including inadequate staff and transport, through the Public Employment Exchange Services Programme, which we are currently implementing and a number of our field officers are benefiting in terms of computers, internet connectivity and renovations of the field offices.
Mr Speaker, the Committee rightly observed that due to the size of the informal sector, the majority of the employed in Zambia do not have decent jobs. The Government is aware of the precarious situation and has been making strives in changing this scenario through the on-going social security reforms in the country. We are coming up with a serious strategy of formalising the informal sector.
Sir, at the highest level, the Government emphasises total commitment to decent work in Zambia. To demonstrate this resolve, the Government, in collaboration with the International Labour Organisation (ILO), is currently implementing the second phase of the Zambia Decent Work Country Programme which will run through 2016.
As you all may be aware, the Industrialisation and Job Creation Strategy has been put in place with a view to create 1,000,000 formal jobs through foreign and local investments in four broad sectors namely tourism, construction, agriculture and manufacturing. Therefore, the Decent Work Country Programme is a coherent and focused programme grounded in national priorities and agreed with constituents to contribute to the promotion of decent work in Zambia.
Mr Speaker, I also wish to note the recommendation made by the Committee to revise certain laws in the country to allow for smooth collection of social and economic data.
 Sir, I would like to take this opportunity to inform this House that the labour law reforms process has reached an advanced stage. The target is to present the various Bills in the next session of Parliament and we are working well towards that target. The Government will also take seriously the Committee’s recommendation to revise the Census and Statistics Act of 1964, as well as, to expedite the process of adopting the national strategy for development of statistics.
Sir, I am happy to note that the Committee has appreciated the number of projects under implementation aimed at increasing power generation capacity in our country. The Government acknowledges that the available power is less than the demand and will not relent in expanding the projects to ensure that the country has surplus. In this vein, the Government will continue to increase investment in the electricity sub-sector. Low accessibility of power still remains a challenge especially in rural areas and the Government could not agree more with the observation of the Committee and the recommendations.
Mr Speaker, in conclusion, the Government has noted and taken seriously the observations and recommendations made by your Committee. I wish to end my debate by thanking the Committee for the elaborate and informative report. Indeed, it is an eye opener. 
Mr Speaker, I thank you.
Mr Hamudulu (Sivaonga): Mr Speaker, in concluding this debate, allow me to thank all hon. Members who had the opportunity to debate the Motion. I will start with Hon. Geoffrey Mwamba who actually ably seconded the Motion. Hon. Mwanza, we take note of your debate especially as it regards to the Zambia Electricity Supply Corporation (ZESCO) in its operations. Hon. Hamududu, as usual, we appreciate your input. Hon. Sichinga, unfortunately had just started debating and we were denied of the chance to hear what he had to say. Hon. Shamenda, on behalf of the Committee, we would like to appreciate your input into the debate and especially that you have pledged to, at least, take heed of some of the issues that we raised in the report.
Sir, I think I should comment on what Hon. Hamududu raised regarding our economy which is heavily dependent on the informal sector. That thought was also echoed by the hon. Minister. I am not here to open debate, but I think that I am compelled to comment on that.
Mr Speaker, more than 70 per cent of our economy is in the informal sector and in this sector it is very difficult to get statistics so as to plan properly. I am glad that the hon. Minister has mentioned that there are in the process of formalising this sector. For the sake of putting it on record, we mean the stone crushers that we see along our roads, the peasant farmers dotted around our country, those carpenters and welders that we see in our markets, those backyard motor mechanics, the fishermen in Chilubi and elsewhere, tailors in our markets, street vendors and so many others around our country. Those people are in informal employment and it is very difficult for the Government to plan for them. I am glad that the hon. Minister has pledged that they are going to formalise the informal sector.
Sir, we thank you for the support that we were rendered as we went round gathering information and we are grateful for the cordial relationship that your Committee is enjoying with the line ministries that we seek to oversee. 
I thank you, Sir.
Question put and agreed to.
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
ADJOURNMENT
The Vice-President (Dr Scott): Sir, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.
Question put and agreed to.
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The House adjourned at 1939 hours until 0900 hours on Friday, 27th June, 2014.