Debates- Friday, 4th July, 2014

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Friday, 4th July, 2014

The House met at 0900 hours 

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]





The Vice-President (Dr Scott): Mr Speaker, I wish to give the House some idea of the business it will consider next week.

Sir, on Wednesday, 9th July, 2014, the Business of the House will begin with Questions to hon. Ministers, if there will be any. These will be followed by the presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will deal with Private Members’ Motions, if there be any. The House will, then, consider a Motion to adopt the Report of the Committee on Legal Affairs, Governance, Human Rights, Gender Matters and Child Affairs. 

Mr Speaker, on Thursday, 10th July, 2014, the Business of the House will commence with Questions, if there will be any. These will be followed by the presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will consider a Motion to adopt the Report of the Committee on Estimates. 

Sir, on Friday, 11th July, 2014, the Business of the House will begin with the Vice-President’s Question Time, which will be followed by Questions to hon. Ministers, if there will be any. After that, the House will deal with the presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will consider the Second Reading Stage of the Zambia Charted Institute of Logistics and Transport Bill, National Assembly Bill, No. 1, 2014. Then, the House will consider the Motion to adopt the Report of the Committee on Health, Community Development and Social Welfare. The House will, then, deal with any business that may be outstanding. 

I thank you. 



Mr Kunda (Muchinga): Mr Speaker, can His Honour the Vice-President update the House and the nation on His Excellency the President’s state of health.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the Government has agreed that all statements on His Excellency the President’s health or whereabouts will be dealt with by State House and not during His Honour the Vice-President’s Question Time because that comes according to its own calendar and not according to events. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Ms Namugala (Mafinga): Mr Speaker, … 

Mr Mbewe: On a point of order, Sir. 

Mr Speaker: There will be no points of order during this session. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: Mr Speaker, homosexuality is not just illegal in our country, but it is also against our culture. However, we have seen that some diplomats accredited to our country are openly offering solidarity to law breakers. I make reference to the case in Kapiri Mposhi where people were accused of practicing homosexuality and diplomats were seen going there to offer their solidarity which, as I have said, is against our culture. 

Sir, can His Honour the Vice-President explain whether the Government has deliberately allowed the acceptance of homosexuality and does not see anything wrong with it. 

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I would have thought that after campaigning futilely for nearly two years against the Patriotic Front (PF) on the baseless allegation that it tolerated and promoted homosexuality, we would not be going round the same circuit trying to stir up phony homophobia to discredit the Government. 

Mr Mukanga indicated assent. 

The Vice-President: Sir, the case in Kapiri Mposhi, which was presided upon yesterday, was held in open court. It was not a secret undertaking that required the diplomats the hon. Member has talked about to sneak their way to witness. It was made a public event for the sake of transparency. It is my understanding that they are at liberty to observe anything in Zambia which is not secret or barred from them and that is what they did. 

Mr Speaker, as I understand the particular case from reading the reports of the judgment in the paper this morning, there was insufficient evidence. I think it is very important that insufficient evidence or the presumption of innocence is retained in this country irrespective of how anathema the alleged crimes are. We should not punish people unless we are sure that they are guilty. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Ms Imenda (Luena): Mr Speaker, … 

Mr Mbewe: On a point of order, Sir. 

Mr Speaker: Continue, hon. Member for Luena. 

Mr Mbewe: On a point of procedure. 

Mr Mwila: Ikalapanshi, iwe.

Mr Mbewe resumed his seat.

Ms Imenda: Mr Speaker, normally when His Excellency the President goes out of the country, he carries journalists with him. This time around, we are told that he has gone for …

Mr Mbewe: On a point of procedure. 

Ms Imenda: … a working holiday. However, if that was the case, he should have gone with journalists, as is customary, who should have been giving us feedback on what he is doing. Why is there silence this time around? Even journalists are not sending us reports of the work that His Excellency the President is doing there. Why is there a black screen over this matter in both our electronic and print media?

The Vice-President: I do not believe that the situation is without precedent. As I explained this time last week, if His Excellency the President is going on, largely, private business which his working holiday is, he does not necessarily have to carry journalists along. It is not a ceremonial visit to Israel or a thing of great pomp and circumstance. It is a private matter and I already explained that the Government is going to leave it to State House to answer questions on this subject matter.

I thank you, Sir. 


Mr Mwila (Chipili): Mr Speaker, the experience I have in trade unionism is that when you are making demands on salaries or any other conditions of service, …

Mr Mbewe: On a point of procedure, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mwila: … they must be based on the prevailing inflation. Can His Honour the Vice-President indicate whether the salary increment for …

Mr Shakafuswa interjected.

Mr Speaker: Order! Hon. Member for Katuba, what is your difficulty? You are running a commentary.


Mr Speaker: Yes.

Hon. Government Members: Send him out!


Mr Speaker: No! Do you have the right to do that? 


Mr Speaker: May the hon. Member for Chipili continue, please.

Mr Mwila: Mr Speaker, I was saying that when you are making demands on salaries or any other conditions of service, your demands or arguments must be based on the prevailing inflation in the country. Can His Honour the Vice-President make a comment on whether the demands, which are being made by the Civil Servants Union and the Public Workers Union of Zambia, are justifiable. Further, can he also indicate whether the dispute between the Government and the unions was resolved.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the negotiations between employers and employees unions are normally something like a card game where you offer this, take that or even not accept it. It is very difficult to answer a question which involves showing the public the cards you are holding. So, I do not want to be too precise. We are content that the wage and salary increases that were given last year, especially in the lower echelons of the Civil Service, will outweigh an excessive inflation. In fact, they were given specifically taking inflation into account and the fact that the lower paid workers had dropped behind in the course of the so-called de-compression of wages. I want to assure the House that we have got some of the unions that have extended the dead line already to 31st December. Some have signed and we are still negotiating with others. So, please, Hon. Mr Speaker, I would like the questioner to rest assured that we, as a Government, know what we are doing.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: I did indicate yesterday that we had made a special dispensation for the hon. Member for Katombola to follow up his question following his late entry into the House.

Mr Lubinda: He has forgotten the question!


Mr Livune (Katombola): Mr Speaker, as at 1st July, 2014, information from the University Teaching Hospital (UTH), our largest hospital, through the Ministry of Health, stated that there were thirty-nine pediatric and 150 adults, bringing the total to 189 patients, awaiting heart surgery. The importance of the heart in the human body cannot be over emphasised. His Honour the Vice-President, what does this Government intend to do about this huge number of Zambians who are so desperately in need of this important service to ensure that their living is sustained?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, yes, there are currently about fifty patients awaiting heart surgery at the University Teaching Hospital (UTH). The House may wish to note that the UTH is the only hospital in the country with facilities to carry out heart surgery. Heart surgery facilities are quite expensive. It involves having three or four electrical sockets to make sure you do not get power outage interference. You also need specialised nursing. Therefore, it is a quite expensive undertaking. The long queues that the questioner has called attention to can be attributed to the fact that there is currently only one foreign doctor who is a heart surgeon at the UTH. This doctor is currently not working pending negotiations regarding his contract. 

Sir, however, the Government has, in the meantime, entered into an agreement with the Apollo Hospitals Group of India who will be sending specialists to perform these procedures at the UTH. They will be working with our local doctors to clear this backlog.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Ng’onga: Hear, hear!

Rev. Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha (Keembe): Mr Speaker, following the question I asked about His Excellency the President’s health, His Honour the Vice-President guided that questions of this nature would be left to State House. However, it is necessary for the nation to know whether State House will send somebody to give a statement here in this House or this House will be devoid of information until we pick it up from public media.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, one thing, without a doubt, is that the hon. Questioner is not a doctor. He is an army officer, a Lieutenant-General and a holy man.

Rev. Lt-Gen. Rev Shikapwasha: On a point of order, Sir.


The Vice-President: I am answering your question.


Mr Speaker: I will not allow a point of order.


Mr Nkombo: No! 

Mr Speaker: Wait!

Hon. Member for Mazabuka Central, you cannot just say, “No” when I am talking. 

Mr Nkombo interjected. 

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member for Mazabuka Central, let me deal with this situation. His Honour the Vice-President, before you continue, I think it would help if you responded directly to the question. Firstly, we will save time and secondly, we will avoid too many or unnecessary points of order during this session. We have only thirty minutes. Let us have direct questions and direct answers. 

His Honour the Vice-President may continue, please.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the medical information I was attempting to draw attention to has its time. There are times when you can definitely say this is the case or that is the case. You cannot force it. I anticipate that we will, in due course, get a complete or definitive statement from State House which will be available to the hon. Members. I cannot give a date when this will be done at the moment.

I thank you, Sir. {mospagebreak}

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo (Mumbwa): Mr Speaker, there are people who encroached on the Game Management Area (GMA) No. 14 in Mumbwa. These people were generously given places where to re-locate in Chief Moono, Chief Kaindu and Chief Mumba’s areas, and yet there is no water provision. At the same time, there are encroachers who have remained in the GMA No. 14 and are even cutting down trees. Can His Honour the Vice-President update this House and, through it, the nation when he is going to have these people removed from this GMA and those who were removed provided with the necessary elements of life such as water.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the process is underway and I am sure that the hon. Member knows that. It involves the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU), Zambia Wild Life Authority (ZAWA), resettlement departments in my office and the traditional leaders. It is an ongoing matter of working together and trying to achieve exactly what he is asking about, which is the civil and orderly removal of the settlers in the GMA to areas which have been identified. I do not have the technical details about the water provision, but the DMMU, as usual, is in my office as we speak and the questioner can find the detail out within a matter of minutes.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Ng’onga (Kaputa): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from His Honour the Vice-President on the progress on the roads that lead to Kaputa. In the past, I indicated that these roads had been completely damaged due to the previous rains. 

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, with your indulgence, I would like to answer that next week when I have some information on hand.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Miyanda (Mapatizya): Mr Speaker, it is clear that the Head of State is on holiday in Israel. Therefore, I would like to find out from His Honour the Vice-President whether he is in the holy land of Israel receiving the Ten Commandments, which the PF Government promised to use to govern this country, and also when we will receive the Constitution of this country.


Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I wish I could conjure up a vision of His Excellency the President on Mount Sinai receiving the Ten Commandments. These days you can get the Ten Commandments through Google. You can simply go onto the computer and they come even in Zambia and even in the most distant rural constituencies. So, I doubt that he is actually anywhere near Mount Sinai.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Mr Speaker, last week, I asked His Honour the Vice-President when the PF Government would implement free education from primary to secondary school up to university level, since that was part of its campaign strategy. However, he has not brought the answer today as he had promised. Therefore, I would like to know when this programme will start.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, it is a little bit premature for the questioner to say that I have not brought the answer because I have and I was waiting for him to ask for it. I hope that is what his nullity of a point of order was all about. 

Sir, the PF came into Government in September, 2011, and there were serious challenges in the primary, secondary and tertiary education levels and these have delayed the implementation of the manifesto agenda on free education for Grades 1 to 12. I will highlight just two of the many challenges and make some comments just for the questioner’s benefit. 

Mr Speaker, as of 2013, there were nearly 9,000 primary schools against just under 700 secondary schools. We, therefore, faced an urgent need and had to make a choice between increasing the number of secondary schools or moving into subsidising what we had. Just to put that in terms of pupils, in the same period, there were just over 300,000 primary school students and less than 100,000 secondary school learners. There was an urgent need to increase enrolment at secondary school level to absorb the thousands of learners who were not selected to enter Grades 8 and 10 after they had written Grades 7 and 9 examinations. Our belief is that the question of jobs and economic expansion in Zambia is intimately tied to adequate education and we did not want to continue with this situation of under establishment. I must state that there is also an increase in university education, but we will leave that for later. In order to create the space at secondary school, particularly, we have increased funding in the Ministry of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education from 17 per cent in the National Budget of 2013 to over 20 per cent in 2014. 

Sir, there are some statistics which I will let the questioner have, but I do not think that they are of much interest to the general public. The big question is: should the Government spend on free education or on the interim?  There are a number of strategies to progressively get to where we want to go and one of the measures is to increase the number of bursary recipients at secondary school level, especially in rural areas. The bursary allocation in 2015 will increase further to absorb more learners. We will regulate and streamline the amount of fees paid in secondary schools in order to bring sanity to this sub sector, especially with the private schools. We hope to increase the number of day secondary schools, which are cheaper to run, but we must have lots of them because they have to be readily and physically accessible to students. We need to increase funding to the education and skills training sector and, ultimately, we would seek to have a comprehensive free education regime in 2016 or 2017.

Sir, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Sir, last week, the House was treated to a very informative ministerial statement by the hon. Minister of Mines, Energy and Water Development concerning Konkola Copper Mines Limited (KCM). When several hon. Members asked about the position of the KCM in relation to its taxation to Zambia, the hon. Minister referred us to an instruction by His Honour the Vice-President for a forensic investigation to be conducted. When we further asked what that forensic investigation was all about, the hon. Minister of Mines, Energy and Water Development, once again, referred this House to His Honour the Vice-President. Knowing that he is the one who follows bombs that are juicy, I am sure that he suspected that this question would be asked and must be prepared for it. May he tell this House and the nation at large what this forensic investigation is all about, how much it will cost and what he expects will come out of it, notwithstanding what we are reading in the press today concerning the KCM.

 The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I actually spoke to the Commissioner-General of the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) just shortly before coming in this morning to get the latest on the implementation of the forensic audit. The Norwegians are definitely supporting us. We are just negotiating whether we need three or four of their specialists to supplement the four specialists from the ZRA who will undertake the audit. Of course, any information that comes in, for example, the information coming out of the U&M Mining Limited versus the KCM court case, where the judgment is available, will be taken into account. A forensic audit is basically like a criminal investigation. You look at all the finger-prints, numbers, follow up on whatever seems to be a promising trail and you try to identify evidence of what the suspicion was in the first case, which is tax evasion. I do not think that there is any mystery about what a forensic audit is. The mystery is who is paying and the answer is, the Norwegians. The question of when we expect the venture of the forensic audit to be actually launched in terms of actual black and white pencil work is next week and we hope to have some preliminary results within sixty days of that.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Musokotwane (Liuwa): Mr Speaker, the Western Province is one of the poorest in this country because it is one of the few without an international corridor. 

Sir, three years ago, works on Kalabo Road, which leads to the Angolan Border, almost started because finances had been organised. Can I understand why three years later, nothing has happened on this important road which will join Zambia and Angola.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, as I understand it, the road which the hon. Member is asking about is effectively the extension of the Mongu/Kalabo Road, which is currently under construction. My understanding is that the construction of the road will continue to Sikongo and thereon to Angola. However, if the hon. Member feels that I am not fully in the picture, he can drop me a note so that I get detailed information that is convenient for him. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Mwamba (Kasama Central): Mr Speaker, during the 2011 run-up to the general elections, I campaigned in Kasama and, of course, the Northern Province as a whole. One of the promises that we made was to tar the Kasama Airstrip. I would like to find out from His Honour the Vice-President what plans the Government has to tar the airstrip. 

Secondly, …


Mr Speaker: No, no, no. You are only allowed one question. 

His Honour the Vice-President may respond. 

Mr Mwamba: Secondly, I would like to find out from His Honour the President …

Mr Speaker: No. Your Honour, please, respond. 


The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the answer to the question is that works are in progress, but I do not have the actual time-line at hand. However, we can easily establish this.

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, four days ago, a Zambia Railways Goods Train derailed in Mazabuka and the contents therein spilled out. Some of the contents were copper concentrates on their way out of the country. I would like to find from His Honour the Vice-President whether the Government has now lifted the ban for the export of concentrates.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I am not sure whether there was a ban on the export of concentrates or a tax. 


The Vice-President: I think that it was tax on exported concentrates so as to compensate for the value which is not added in Zambia. I am fairly confident that the matter is being properly handled, but I will make inquiries and be double assured of that. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Muchima (Ikeleng’i): Mr Speaker, the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) installed a lot of communication towers to ease communication throughout the country. Some few months ago, we heard that His Honour the Vice-President had commissioned these towers. However, to date, some of them are not yet connected. When will they be connected to ease communication?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, through a messenger, I will send the installation schedule that I have to the hon. Member. Rome was not built in a day and the Zambian communication network will, likewise, not be built in a day.
Sir, however, I am sure that as the questioner is aware, since we came into power, we have actually given a big boost to the installation of towers in economically marginal areas, particularly those close to chiefs’ headquarters,. We are doing what we can and I do not think that we can be faulted for that.

I thank you, Sir. 

Ms Sayifwanda (Zambezi East): Mr Speaker, this good Government has stated that the status quo in Zambezi remains that in the west, Luvale will be spoken and in the east, Lunda. 

Sir, His Honour the Vice-President has been to Chitokoloki Mission. Therefore, I would like to find out from him whether the Government will allocate some money to the Chitokoloki Road in the 2015 Budget? 

The Vice-President: Yes, Mr Speaker.

I thank you, Sir. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima (Chembe): Mr Speaker, the Office of His Honour the Vice-President is a bridge between the Government and the people of Zambia. This means that even the language should be civil and unifying. Your Honour, when you were in England, your comment on South Africa raised a lot of dust in this country. 

Also, your comment on the Tonga people of the Southern Province …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima: … has annoyed the people there. The other day, your comment on Mr Mulenga Sata also raised a lot of dust. 

Do you have a problem with this selection of words? Is it deliberate or is it a disease?


Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, let me select a word. I can say, without any hesitation, to the people of the Southern Province, particularly the Tongas, who have taken this personally, sorry. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: I think that it is the right word. The trouble is that I am quite a high profile person and I am also quite straight forward when I talk. So, if I chose the wrong word, I am sorry. However, I have found the right one now and I am very happy to know it. I want to thank some of my friends on your left, Sir, for discussing this matter with me.

Sir, I thank you.

Mr Speaker: Again, I would like to commend His Honour the Vice-President for putting that matter to rest. 

Hon. Member for Masaiti, you may pose your question. 

Mr Katambo (Masaiti): Mr Speaker, may His Honour the Vice-President explain why there have been continuous problems in the agriculture sector concerning the purchase of cotton and tobacco in 2011 and 2014, respectively. 

Mr Speaker: Order!

His Honour the Vice-President’s Question Time expired. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!




550. Mr Livune (Katombola) asked the Minister of Youth and Sport: 

(a)    how much money was spent on the construction of the Youth Resource Centre in Simango area in Chief Musokotwane’s area in Kazungula District; and 

(b)    when the centre would be opened.

The Deputy Minister of Youth and Sport (Mr Mulenga): Mr Speaker, I would like to inform this august House that a total of K250,000 was spent on the carpentry …


Mr Speaker: Order, on my right!

Mr Mulenga: … workshop at Kazungula Youth Centre. The centre will be opened when the remaining works are funded and completed. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Livune: Mr Speaker, …

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised. 

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I am aware that you have always guided us that points of order must be contemporaneous. However, it was not possible to abide by that order considering that you had earlier ruled that we should not raise points of order during His Honour the Vice-President’s Question Time. 

Mr Speaker, I am aware that His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia was very angry with the Cabinet over the Statutory Instrument (SI) that was issued by the Government to allow the exportation of concentrates whose cancellation he ordered. Thereafter, accordingly, this House was informed that there would be no more export of metal concentrates. 

Sir, His Honour the Vice-President has informed this House that he is not aware of any ban pertaining to the export of concentrates in this country. This House stands to believe that His Honour the Vice-President is a representative of His Excellency the President in this House and that whatever he says is representative of the views of His Excellency the President. Therefore, is he in order to feign ignorance on the cancellation of that particular SI and insinuate that this House was misled by the statements given by the Government? 

Mr Speaker: My ruling is that in order to have a very conclusive determination of this matter, I will invite the hon. Member for Monze Central to file a question, which I will forward to His Honour the Vice-President to respond to.

Mr Livune: Mr Speaker, the resource centre in question is more than three years old, and yet it is not operational. What is the cost of the remaining works, considering that the longer the project takes, the more the expenses incurred?

The Minister of Youth and Sport (Mr Kambwili): Mr Speaker, let me take this opportunity to shed more light on that youth resource centre. Before we, the Patriotic Front (PF), came into office, the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) had embarked on a programme to build youth resource centres. However, the hon. Member of Parliament will agree with me that the things that they were calling youth resource centres are, in our view, not worth being called as such. For instance, the youth resource centre that the hon. Member is talking about is just an old open building with, at least, two offices and I do not think it is fit to be called a youth resource centre. What we have decided is to build Technical Education, Vocational and Entrepreneurship Training Authority (TEVETA) accredited institutions under the programme of youth resource centre under which the instructors will be on the Government payroll as opposed to being employed on a voluntary basis and being paid from the proceeds of students’ payments to the youth resource centres. So, we concluded that this youth resource centre is not fit for opening. 

Sir, in the 2015 Budget, we will allocate money for infrastructure like hostels, classroom blocks and more workshops so as to meet the TEVETA requirement. Until that is done, we are not going to open that resource centre because it would be an insult to the people of Kazungula. Let us give them a youth resource centre that will stand the test of time.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Hamudulu (Siavonga): Mr Speaker, in the past, you have articulated issues regarding your ministry well ahead of Government approval. This time around, how sure are we that what you are saying here has got the blessings of your other colleagues, good as it may be?

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, I do not respond to speculation. I do not remember ever making a pronouncement that was beyond the Government’s approval. Therefore, I will not dwell on that.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muchima (Ikeleng’i): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has stated that the structures put in place by the MMD were not up to standard. I know that there are technocrats who advise on the putting up of structures. Therefore, I would like to know whether the technocrats who were under the MMD are no longer there and that there are different people, now, who have come up with new plans.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, it is not the technocrats who have changed, but the policy and the thinking of the new Government. The hon. Member was part of the Executive in the previous Government and since he also has a youth resource centre in Mwinilunga, he will agree with me that the centre is not up to standard. Let us accept these things. Putting up a one 1 x 3 classroom block does not make it a youth resource centre. Let us, for once, do something that will stand the test of time other than appeasing people for no apparent reason.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Back Benchers: Obasanjo!

Mr Miyanda (Mapatizya): Mr Speaker, about K250,000 has been spent on that project. So, what security measures is the Government putting in place to protect what is already there?

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, there are people who are providing security for that facility and, so far, we have not had any problem of vandalism or otherwise.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mufalali (Senanga): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has just indicated that he does not dwell on speculation and that he actually does what he promises the House. May I just remind him that he came to this House and told us that youths were going to be trained under the Zambia National Service (ZNS) and he also promised Senanga Central Constituency a youth resource centre. What can he say about that since these things have not come through?

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, His Honour the Vice-President said earlier that Rome was not built in a year.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chipungu (Rufunsa): Mr Speaker, it is a fact that Government buildings must have plans and whatever resource centres we put up had plans which were approved. However, I want to find out if the Government is going to demolish all the resource centres that the hon. Minister thinks are not up to standard and reconstruct new ones.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, I thought former teachers understood things better than ordinary people.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Kambwili: What I said was that most of the youth resource centres were only 1x3 classroom blocks, which do not have the facilities to warrant them to be called youth resource centres. So, what we are going to do is put up more infrastructure in addition to what is already there.

I thank you, Sir.


551. Mr Ng’onga (Kaputa) asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing:

(a)    how many boreholes were allocated to Kaputa Parliamentary Constituency in 2012 and 2013;

(b)    of the boreholes allocated, how many were sunk;

(c)    which contractor was engaged to sink the boreholes;

(d)    of the boreholes at (b), how many were functional as of April, 2014; and

(e)    when the remaining boreholes would become operational.

The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr N. Banda): Mr Speaker, 164 boreholes were allocated to Kaputa Constituency in 2012 and 2013. Out of the allocated 164, a total of eighty boreholes were successfully sunk. The contractors that were engaged are Zambezi Drilling and Exploration Ltd and China Gansu. As of April, 2014, sixty-six boreholes were functional. The remaining boreholes are expected to be operational by September, 2014.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Ng’onga: Mr Speaker, Kaputa Central Town sits on a salty rock and a lot of chloride is found in the borehole water. I would like to find out the help that the ministry can render to the people of Kaputa as regards the challenge of salt and chloride in the boreholes?

Mr N. Banda: Mr Speaker, we have successfully done water projects that have cost K27 million.

Sir, as for the salty water, we have advised the contractors that are on the ground to drill shallow wells that will allow water that is collected to be clear of salt. We have also requested them to carry out studies on how we should control chlorine. The ministry is cognisant of the fact that it still has to send more researchers to ensure that this issue is sorted out.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Sir, in relation to this question, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether or not his ministry is aware of the fact that a lot of these boreholes that are drilled using Government resources cost almost double what they cost when they are drilled for individuals, notwithstanding the fact that when they are drilled for the Government, they are done in large numbers and, going by economies of scale, should, therefore, attract less costs? If he is aware of this, how is his responsible ministry addressing this matter to save taxpayers’ money?

Mr Ng’onga: Hear, hear! Very good question.

Mr N. Banda: Mr Speaker, that has to do with the procurement process. When we advertise, we know the value of the project and the number of boreholes that should be sunk. However, indeed, in most instances, most of the service providers try by all means to increase the cost of the project. Nonetheless, the Government is aware that the Procurement Department is doing its best to ensure that the charges are acceptable.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mwamba (Kasama Central): Mr Speaker, how many boreholes have been sunk not only in Kasama Central, but also Kasama District as a whole?

The Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr Chenda): Mr Speaker, we will do well to learn from the prices that have been established in this august House by circulating the progress of work that has taken place. The Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock recently circulated a document which showed the number of dip tanks that had been constructed in respective districts and constituencies. Currently, there is also circulation of a document on towers. 

Sir, I think in the interest of being accountable and transparent, we will also circulate a document in hon. Members’ pigeonholes which will indicate the programmes we have outlined for the sinking of boreholes. The document will indicate where we have sunk and intend to sink boreholes so that we have a quick feedback from the hon. Members of Parliament. This will help us monitor and guide this programme. 

Mr Speaker, as for the question that has been asked by the hon. Member of Parliament for Kasama Central, we have this information at our offices. It will be difficult for us to give it to him off-hand. We are dealing with the whole country and it is not possible for us to have this information at our fingertips. As I said, we will circulate this information and ensure that we work hand-in-hand with hon. Members of Parliament so that we can deal with this issue effectively.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.{mospagebreak}

Mr Speaker: I must state here that if such practice is adopted by many more ministries, it will avert a lot of follow-up and new questions on the Floor of the House, especially from your colleagues on the left, who are performing a representative role. Some of these questions are difficult to answer. For instance, regarding the previous question from the hon. Member for Kasama Central, I do not expect that the hon. Minister will be moving around or, at least, be coming to the House with this information in advance. 

However, if this information is circulated in advance, I would definitely endorse that practice beyond this particular ministry. There is already a leaf to be taken from the Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock and other ministries that are doing this practice. I would like to commend them for that.

Mr Mwila (Chipili): Mr Speaker, is it possible for this ministry to submit a list of the boreholes which will be constructed in 2014? If it is not possible, when is the hon. Minister going to bring a list to hon. Members of Parliament?

Mr Speaker: Well, I do not think I would want the hon. Minister to respond to that question. I think he has already addressed it.

Mr Livune: Mr Speaker, I have not heard the hon. Minister respond to the question raised by Hon. Lubinda to my satisfaction. The cost of drilling boreholes varies. When an individual requires this service, the cost is low. When it is the Government, there is a very huge cost attached to the service. What is the Government doing to ensure that it is not overburdened by these fraudsters who overcharge because they know that when it is the Government, it can pay any cost?

Mr Chenda: Mr Speaker, I think it is a fact that there is a tendency to inflate the cost of works when it is the Government that is procuring. However, these projects are done under public competitive bidding. The consolation, in this case, is that the Ministry of Mines, Energy and Water Development has procured some rigs and will also be drilling boreholes. So, this ministry will be able to give us competitive rates to enable us to access and see whether we are actually getting proper value for these jobs that we are giving out to private contractors. 

Sir, it is a matter of concern to the Government because we know that individuals are able to get the same quality of work at a much lower cost. So, the question is: Why is it that when it comes to Government works, which are actually bulky and, going by the economies of scale, should actually be much cheaper, the cost is much higher? It is an issue that the Government is aware of and one which it must address so that it can maximise the results on the amount of money we are investing in these projects.

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Chansa (Chimbamilonga): Mr Speaker, most of the boreholes which were sunk in Kaputa and Nsama districts are functional. Is money available in the budget to carry out repair works?

Mr Chenda: Mr Speaker, the intention of the Government is to provide water. So, if the boreholes are not functional, hon. Members of Parliament will do well to draw the attention of the Government to them so that it can fix them or sink alternative ones so that our people can be better served.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.


552. Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central) asked the Minister of Agriculture and Livestock:

(a)    whether the Government was aware that fish stocks in the Lwanginga and Zambezi rivers had been depleted;

(b)    what had led to the depletion of the fish stocks in the two rivers; and

(c)    what immediate measures the Government was taking to:

(i)    restock the two rivers; and

(ii)    ensure adequate and sustainable levels of fish stocks in all the water bodies in Zambia.

The Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Livestock (Mr Monde): Mr Speaker, the Government is fully aware that fish stocks on the Zambezi fishery have reduced, but not depleted, as perceived.

Mr Speaker, the reduction of fish stocks has been attributed to the increase in …

Mr Speaker: Order, on the right!

Mr Monde: … the number of fishers, increased use of destructive fishing gears, fishing in fish breeding areas and fishing during restricted periods such as the fishing ban.

Mr Speaker, with regard to the water bodies in the country, the Government is doing the following:

(a)    Restocking the Zambezi and Lwanginga rivers

Mr Speaker, the Government has no immediate plans to restock the Zambezi and Lwanginga rivers. However, it is working with stakeholders, for example, the Barotse Royal Establishment, to ensure that fishers use appropriate fishing gears and practices as well as observe restricted fishing periods and areas both gazatted and mutually agreed; and

(b)    To ensure adequate and sustainable levels of fish stocks in all the water bodies in Zambia

Mr Speaker, the Government is restricting the use of illegal fishing gears through issuance of fishing licences, increased patrols and surveillance to curb illegal fishing activities, increased community sensitisation and awareness programmes and promotion of fish farming through pounds, cages and pens. Furthermore, the Government has embarked on developing fishery-specific management plans that will guide the sustainable use of fishery resources as well as the development of fishery areas.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Miyutu: Mr Speaker, the methods that the hon. Minister has highlighted do not include breeding. He dwelt too much on control. My question is: When does the Government intend to effect breeding methods which will increase the fish stocks in the water bodies of the Western Province? 

Mr Speaker, when you go to Siavonga, the caging system is used to breed fish. However, this has not been effected in the Western Province. Therefore, when does the Government intend to introduce this method of breeding in the Western Province? 

Mr Monde: Mr Speaker, the cages being talked about in Siavonga are private activities which the Government is encouraging. In our response, we have also mentioned that if we can get people to breed fish using cages on the water bodies and follow the restrictions, that would directly increase the breeding. I think our response is very comprehensive because we have mentioned the usage of pounds, cages and pens as a way of ensuring that we increase the fish stocks in our water bodies.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Imenda (Luena): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister mentioned that one of the problems that has led to the depletion of fish stocks, especially on the Zambezi River, is fishing during the extended fish ban period. Is the hon. Minister aware that when the Patriotic Front (PF) was campaigning in the Western Province, it promised the people that there would be no fishing ban anywhere in the province? 


Ms Imenda: Is he aware?

Mr Monde: Mr Speaker, I am not aware.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Musokotwane (Liuwa): Mr Speaker, I am disappointed at the hon. Minister’s answer that restocking in the Lwanginga and Zambezi rivers will not be undertaken. Why does the Government want to wait and do nothing until the situation is desperate? Is it, surely, not cheaper to start the restocking now as was done by the former Minister of Agriculture and Livestock, the late Hon. Mundia Sikatana, in Luapula Province?

Mr Monde: Mr Speaker, I have said that, first of all, the purported depletion is not the status quo. I think what is happening is that the number of fishermen carrying out fishing activities on the two rivers has increased by fifteen per cent and as such, it looks as if the fish is depleting. Every year, a survey that is called the Catch Assessment Survey is being undertaken and through it, we look at the number of fish that are on these water bodies. The numbers indicate that the fish are depleting but, in fact, it is the value of high activity of fishermen. As a Government, we think that it is not necessary for us to restock. However, what we are doing is promote these other methods and ensure that we restrict fishing in breeding areas and inhibit fishing during fishing bans.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muchima: Mr Speaker, we are very familiar with fish restocking in this House. We have, now, heard that there is a survey conducted to determine fish stocks, but this does not tally with what is on the ground. When will the ministry inform this House and the nation about the levels of fish stock in all the rivers and lakes in Zambia?

Mr Monde: Mr Speaker, what is very important is ensure that we curb the bad fishing practices and tendencies. When that is done, then, we will have sorted out the problem. Restocking is a very good thing, but if the bad fishing methods, gear and scope are not taken care of, all that would have been put into the exercise will be futile. We think that the best is to sensitise the community and ensure that we get them to use the right fishing methods. 

Mr Speaker, we, as a ministry, do not think that it is necessary to come up with a restocking programme.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Ntundu (Gwembe): Mr Speaker, in areas where there are rivers, for instance, in Gwembe, people who live near these rivers feel that their livelihood can only be sustained by fishing. Can I hear from the hon. Minister whether the Government has any plans to ensure that during that time of the ban, the people can do something else? Is there any programme that the Government deliberately put in place to ensure that during the ban the people do not go fishing?

Mr Monde: Mr Speaker, for fishermen, I think we are promoting fish cages because we know that, that way, the fish belongs to them and it is not under restriction. Therefore, we are asking them to look at fish cages as an alternative.

I thank you, Sir.


553. Mr Chishimba (Kamfinsa) asked the Minister of Local and Housing:

(a)    how much money was allocated to the Kitwe City Council for the Street Lighting Project from 2011 to 2014, year by year; and

(b)    whether the funds had been properly utilised.

The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr Tembo): Mr Speaker, in December, 2012, an amount of K1 million was allocated towards the street lighting project. No further sums were allocated for the period 2011, 2013 and 2014.

Sir, I am glad to report that the funds were properly utilised. The project relates to the lighting of a 5 km stretch dual-carriage way. I am, however, saddened to inform the House that the project witnessed setbacks in the number of armoured cables which were stolen and, thereby, rendering blackouts on some days. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chishimba: Mr Speaker, I would like to find from the hon. Minister …

Mr Mutelo: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mutelo: Mr Speaker, I am sorry, totally sorry …


Mr Mutelo: … to the hon. Member who is on the Floor.


Mr Mutelo: Sir, thank you very much for the document that has been circulated by the Ministry of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication showing plans where towers are ear-marked for mounting, where they have been mounted and also on which dates the mounting will be completed. Thank you very much. 

However, Mr Speaker, this pamphlet addresses ten provinces and out of these, it is only in the Western Province where not a single tower has been completed. Is the ministry in order not to complete even just one tower in the Western Province when the dates show 20th June, 2014, as the time for completion, but akuna?


Mr Speaker: Meaning what?

Mr Mutelo: Nothing.

Mr Speaker: Meaning what?

Mr Mutelo: Nothing.


Hon. UPND Member: Akuna means nothing.


Mr Speaker: Well, earlier on, I stated that I would like to strongly urge, particularly, the hon. Cabinet Ministers to circulate this kind of information. I think that it is very useful for the House. However, when this kind of information is received, I must also state that it should not be used for points of order. It should, instead, be used to ask questions. You should be able to say that we have received this circular, we have analysed it, but have the following questions to raise. We will get those questions and take them back to your colleagues and they will respond.

 This point of order does not fall, firstly, under the procedural rule violation certainly and, secondly, quite frankly, in my judgement, I do not see the kind of urgency that I except to the general rule that points of order are for procedure only. 

There is no urgency, hon. Member for Lukulu West. So, you can go back and formulate a question and I will pass it on to the relevant ministry.

The hon. Member for Kamfinsa was on the Floor and he may continue.

Mr Chishimba: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister the cost of street lighting per kilometer.

Mr Tembo: Mr Speaker, it is difficult for me to mention the actual cost of street lighting per kilometre because it also varies depending on where materials are procured.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chansa: Mr Speaker, why is the cost different from town to town when the material used is the same?

Mr Tembo: Mr Speaker, I will attempt to answer the question although it was not clear and I do not know what the hon. Member of Parliament means.

Sir, the money which was allocated to the Kitwe District Council was about K1 million. The procurement process for this project was not done by the ministry, but by the council itself. Therefore, the variance is dependent on where the materials were procured.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, the street lighting project we are talking about is Government funded. It is centrally funded by the Ministry of Local Government and Housing. Your Committee visited a number of towns where these projects are taking place and the question that my colleague asked is in relation to the fact that there is a big discrepancy in cost per kilometre covered by this street lighting project. The question that begs an answer is that seeing that this is centrally organised, are there any measures that the ministry is putting in place to ensure that if there are discrepancies among cities, they are reduced?

Mr Tembo: Mr Speaker, that is a good suggestion and we will try to look into this matter so that the cost of doing this project is uniform in all local authorities.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwamba: Mr Speaker, Kasama is the provincial centre of the Northern Province. I am sure we are all aware about that. However, it lacks a bus station. Not too long ago, the then Minister of Local Government and Housing, Hon. Kabanshi, told the people of Kasama not to accept my pledge for financial assistance to put up a bus station. 

Sir, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what plans the ministry has to put up a bus station. If there is no immediate plan, can it allow me to fulfil my pledge to the people of Kasama?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Hon. Minister, before you rise, I would like to say that we are now dealing with a question on street lighting in Kitwe and are supposed to have supplementary questions. That is an entirely new subject.


Mr Speaker: I am not underestimating its importance, but I am sure you can, through appropriate means, still follow it up, if need be, even through a question. 

So, we move on to the next question.


554. Mr Katuka (Mwinilunga) asked the Minister of Finance what the contribution of Lumwana and Kansanshi Mines to the Gross Domestic Product (GDP) was from 2010 to 2013, year by year.

The Minister of Finance (Mr Chikwanda): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the House that the contribution to the GDP of Kansanshi Mine was 1.097 per cent in 2010, 1.070 per cent in 2011, 0.915 per cent in 2012 and 0.789 per cent in 2013, while Lumwana Mine’s contribution was 0.007 per cent in 2010, 0.005 per cent in 2011, 0.003 per cent in 2012, and 0.003 per cent in 2013.

Mr Speaker, the total contribution to the GDP declined largely due to the decline in world copper prices and the high rate of increase in contribution to the GDP by other sectors of the economy, which is a move in the right direction.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Simfukwe (Mbala): Mr Speaker, the amount the mines contribute to our revenue remains very low. In fact, it is even lower than what the well-wishers or donors contribute. The amount of grants to Zambia are much higher than the revenue from the mines. In fact, it is an illusion that we are a copper super power when so little revenue comes from copper.

Mr Speaker, experts have clearly pointed two things out as the major reasons Zambia is being cheated out of its wealth. One …

Mr Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, the word “cheat” is not parliamentary and secondly, please, sum up your preface and get to the question.

Mr Simfukwe: Mr Speaker, I withdraw the word “cheated.”

Mr Speaker, two points have been mentioned as the reasons we are not receiving enough revenue from the mines. One reason is the over-pricing of the inputs that the mines are using, which some people call transfer pricing. The second reason is the under-pricing of our copper, which is sold through middlemen.

Mr Speaker, I want to find out from the hon. Minister, whom I know is a veteran of our economy, what measures the Government is implementing to counter these two vices, that is, over-pricing of inputs by the mines and under-pricing of our copper through their middlemen.

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Speaker, let me just correct the distortion in terms of the contribution of the mining sector vis-à-vis the external subventions from the donors. The contribution of the mining sector is higher than the grants from the external benefactors. However, I do agree with the hon. Member and other hon. Members who have spoken before that the contribution by the mining sector to the revenue of our country is on the low side. Measures to correct that situation are going to be taken in due course. 

Mr Speaker, transfer pricing, hedging and all those arrangements which are not illegal can be dealt with by just redesigning the taxation in such a way that it will make those issues not to impede negatively on the revenue contribution of the mining sector to the Government coffers.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mbulakulima (Chembe): Mr Speaker, definitely, copper has been termed as our mainstay, and this question and the answer given to it is a source of worry in terms of the decline of the mining contribution to the GDP. Looking at the low contribution of the mining sector, and its being our mainstay to the GDP, does that not send a message to the Zambian Government that there is something wrong and that the forensic audit mentioned by His Honour the Vice-President needs to be extended to the entire industry so that Zambia can get the benefits?

Mr Speaker: Order!

Was that a question or a comment?

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Speaker, it was an extension.

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member for Mbala put it better than the hon. Member for Chembe has done, and I have already provided an answer. I have agreed that the contribution of the mining sector to the Government revenue is rather paltry and that measures to remedy the situation are being taken.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Ntundu: Mr Speaker, if I heard the hon. Minister correctly, he said that the reduction in the contribution of the mining sector to the GDP was as a result of the drop in the copper prices on the world market. Can I hear from him whether Lumwana Mine’s contribution is only from copper, taking into account that it also mines other by-products of copper such as gold? What was the contribution of the mining sector from by-products?

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Speaker, questions like that need a bit of research. I do not want to do a disservice to the question or sentiment presented by the hon. Member for Gwembe, but I cannot just answer questions like that off-the-cuff. However, we can dialogue, and Mr Speaker has guided us about supplying adequate information to this House through circulating information on various issues that relate to the functions of the Government.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member for Gwembe is still at liberty to file a question specifically on that so that he can get specific data on those other products.




Rev. Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha (Keembe): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do adopt the Report of the Committee on National Security and Foreign Affairs for the Third Session of the Eleventh National Assembly laid on the Table of the House on 4th July, 2014.

Mr Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Mr Bwalya (Lupososhi): Mr Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

Rev. Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha: Mr Speaker, based on its terms of reference, the Committee transacted the following business, among other things, during the session:
(a)    consideration of a topical issue – local integration of the Angolan refugees; and

(b)    consideration of the following reports from Zambian parliamentary delegations:

(i)    the Pan African Parliament (PAP) Plenary Session;
(ii)    the Forum of Parliaments of the International Conference on the Great Lakes Region;

(iii)    the African Caribbean Pacific European Union Joint Parliamentary Assembly (ACP-EU-JPA)

(iv)    the Southern African Development Community and Parliamentary Forum (SADC-PF) 33rd Session; and

(v)    the Southern African Development Community Parliamentary Forum (SADC-PF) 34th Plenary Assembly Session.

Sir, I presume that the hon. Members of this august House have had an opportunity to acquaint themselves with the contents of your Committee’s report. I will, therefore, highlight a few salient points and issues that are pertained in the report.

Mr Speaker, on the issue of local integration of Angolan refugees, your Committee was informed that at the ministerial meeting held in 2010, to mark the United Nations High Commission for Refugees (UNHCR)’s sixtieth anniversary, the Government of the Republic of Zambia pledged to locally integrate 10,000 Angolan refugees after the invocation of the Cessation Treaty or Clause, which came into effect on 30th June, 2012. 

Sir, your Committee recognises that local integration is considered for a refugee who has lived in the host country for a protracted period of time and has weak ties to his/her country of origin. It is in this vein that the Zambian Government considered local integration of former Angolan refugees who arrived in Zambia between 1966 and 1986. Other refugees who also qualified were those who had Zambian spouses with whom they had children.

Mr Speaker, your Committee further recognises that a Zambian legal framework relating to aspects of refuges includes:

(a)    the Constitution of the Republic of Zambia;

(b)    the Immigration and Deportation Act No. 18 of 2010;

(c)    the Citizenship of Zambia Act Cap. 124 of the Laws of Zambia;

(d)    the Refugee (Control) Act Cap. 120 of the Laws of Zambia;

(e)    the Convention and Protocol Relating to Status of Refugees 1951 and 1967; and

(f)    the Organisation of African Unity (OAU) Convention covering the specific aspects of refugee problems in Africa in 1969.

However, Sir, your Committee sadly notes that the current Zambian legislation does not have adequate provisions on the aspects of local integration of refugees. The integration process in Zambia is currently based on derivative legislation. This means, therefore, that integration is only applicable to the refugees that can bring themselves within the ambit of the categories mentioned above. To that extent, therefore, but not limited thereto, the refugee integration process may be said to be inadequate.

Mr Speaker, your Committee, therefore, urges the Government to ensure that relevant pieces of legislation are reviewed so that Zambia can adopt national refugee legislation that is consistent with the international standards. Your Committee further recommends that the Draft Refugee Bill of 2003, which was withdrawn, be brought back to Parliament for enactment as it is a progressive piece of legislation.

Sir, your Committee further notes that after the implementation of the local integration process, there will be more pressure on the existing social amenities in the refugee resettlement areas which might be a source of conflict with the locals, if not well handled. Your Committee, therefore, recommends that the Government should work with co-operating partners and other stakeholders to provide adequate social amenities to cater for both the resettled refugees and the local hosting community.

Mr Speaker, your Committee notes, with concern, the slow pace at which the Angolan Government is issuing national passports to eligible former Angolan refugees to enable them to obtain resident permits. Your Committee would appreciate if the Zambian Government could liaise with the Angolan Government to expedite the issuance of the national passports to eligible former Angolan refugees and speed up the integration process.

Sir, during its deliberation, your Committee was also briefed on the reports from five Parliamentary delegations. Your Committee observes that various recommendations are made during these meetings. Therefore, it urges the hon. Members of Parliament to take keen interest in studying these reports in order to be more informed about what is happening and, therefore, be able to provide oversight.

Mr Speaker, in conclusion, allow me to thank the various chief executives, Permanent Secretaries and, indeed, the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly for advice rendered to your Committee during the deliberations.

Sir, your Committee wishes to record its indebtedness to you for the guidance given during the session.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Mr Bwalya: Now, Sir.

Mr Speaker, in seconding the Motion to adopt the Report of the Committee on National Security and National Affairs for the Third Session of the Eleventh National Assembly, laid on the Table of the House on 27th June, 2014, allow me, first, to thank the Chairperson for having ably moved the Motion.

Sir, the Chairperson has already pointed out the salient issues that caught the attention of your Committee during its deliberations. Therefore, I will not spend much time on those issues.

Mr Speaker, as part of its tours, your Committee had an opportunity to undertake a foreign tour to Luanda, Angola. The objective of this tour was to broaden its understanding on the issue relating to the local integration of Angolan refugees who have been and are still living in Zambia.

Sir, during its tour, your Committee was informed that the Angolan Parliament welcomed the decision made by the Zambian Government to locally integrate the 10,000 Angolan refugees. 

However, your Committee was informed that the Angolan Government was worried about the status of those refugees who hoped to be integrated in Zambia because whereas Angola allows its citizens to have dual citizenship, Zambia, on the other hand, under the current Constitution, does not.

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Bwalya: Your Committee urges the Zambian Government to review the various pieces of legislation to cater for the local integration process. 

Sir, the other issue raised before your Committee was the desire by the Angolan authorities for Angolans serving sentences in Zambia to be allowed to finish serving their sentences in Angola and that the same be done for Zambians serving sentences in Angola so that they can finish serving their sentences in their respective country of origin. 

Mr Speaker, your Committee also had the opportunity of touring the Zambian Embassy in Luanda and interacted with the Zambian Ambassador to Angola and members of staff at the embassy. During its interaction with embassy staff, your Committee was informed that owing to the high cost of living obtaining in Angola, funds disbursed by the Ministry of Finance to the embassy are mainly used for rentals and staff allowances, leaving the embassy with no funds for other relevant activities. Your Committee urges the Government to treat the embassy in Angola as a special case and provide additional funding for smooth operations at the embassy. 

Mr Speaker, your Committee recommends that the Government of the Republic of Zambia urgently engages its Angolan counterparts with a view to getting assistance for the Zambian Embassy in Angola to acquire land for building its own chancery. This will reduce the cost of running the embassy in Angola. Apart from the issue of office accommodation, your Committee is concerned with the status of ownership of the ambassador’s residence. Your Committee urges the Government to liaise with the Angolan Government to clarify the ownership of the building housing the ambassador’s residence. 

Sir, finally, I wish to pay tribute to your Committee for the manner in which it conducted its deliberations and observed the views of all the witnesses who appeared before it. Your Committee did so in the spirit and manner that helped it make recommendations which are in the best interest of the Republic of Zambia. 

Mr Speaker, I beg to second. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu (Bweengwa): Mr Speaker, allow me to congratulate your Committee on the wonderful report before us. I support the report of your Committee and would like to highlight some of the salient features in it. 

Mr Speaker, as a background to my debate in support of the report, let me turn to page 3 of your report. Your Committee was informed that as of 10th December, 2013, Zambia hosted 53,045 persons of concern comprising 23,498 Angolans, 6,064 Rwandans, 21,437 Congolese, 16,463 Burundeese, 2,425 Somalis and about 2,000 people of other nationalities. 

Sir, Zambia has been a sanctuary for people that have been displaced due to war and internal conflict in other countries. Allow me to give some history on the subject so that we can put this debate into perspective. 

Mr Speaker, Zambia, having eight neighbouring countries, has suffered the brunt of hosting people displaced, firstly, by the liberation struggle … 

Mr Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1045 hours until 1100 hours.{mospagebreak}

[MR DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]


Mr Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, as a follow-up to my earlier announcement regarding the forthcoming inter-parliamentary games between the Parliament of Zimbabwe and the National Assembly of Zambia, I wish to urge all members of the football and netball teams to be available this afternoon for training. All concerned hon. Members are, once again, reminded that the training session starts at 1500 hours at the Zamsure Sports Complex. 


Mr Hamududu: Mr Speaker, before business was suspended, I had just finished giving some statistics to put our debate in the right perspective. 

Sir, the other statistic that is important to the background of my debate is in the paragraph that follows the one I read on page 3. It states that your Committee was informed that from 2003 to 2007, the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR), working with the Government and the International Organisation of Migration (IOM), undertook the organised voluntary repatriation of Angolan refugees. It further states that over 150,000 Angolans returned home under this programme. 

Mr Speaker, this is happening many years after the total liberation of Southern Africa. It shows you that Zambia has such large numbers of brothers and sisters from neighbouring countries seeking refuge here because of the liberation struggle and other conflicts. Five of Zambia’s eight neighbours have gone through serious conflict. This has caused Zambia to become a home of many people to the point where the population of refugees could make a country. This had its own costs and opportunities beyond the conflict period. I am very happy, Sir, that you were at the heart of this engagement because you are a former diplomat. 

Sir, allow me to give some history on the subject so that we can understand the problem and make proposals for the future because this problem is static. There are indicators that other conflicts may arise in the future. 

Before that, there was colonialism and Zambia played its rightful role to its logical conclusion. We were there supporting the Angolan brothers up to the time they attained its Independence in 1975, under the leadership of the People’s Movement for the Liberation of Angola (MPLA) led by Agostinho Neto and succeeded by José Eduardo Dos Santos. After attaining Independence in 1975, again, Angola slid into internal conflict for twenty-seven years. This left that country devastated and that is why we have such a big spillover of the burden of refugees to a point where some refugees only know Zambia as their home. Therefore, we have to integrate them in our country. That, also, is a cost and an opportunity for further co-operation with Angola. 

Sir, after Mozambique attained independence in 1975, the internal war continued between our brothers and sisters of that country. I am very happy to note that in these statistics, there are other refugees whose countries are not mentioned in this report. I, therefore, presume that there are other countries apart from Angola which are primarily discussed in this report. That is why I will talk a bit about other countries and zero in on Angola. 

Mr Speaker, we are very happy to say that after Namibia got its Independence, …


Mr Deputy Speaker: Order on my right!

Mr Hamududu: … there was no post-independence conflict. After Zimbabwe attained its Independence in 1980, there was an internal conflict, but it was later resolved. We were, again, a host of a number of these brothers and sisters. 

Mr Speaker, my concern regarding the recommendations of your Committee and other issues is that after the post-liberation struggle, there was no serious home-grown plan within the Southern African Development Community (SADC) to address this problem. Some statistics from organisations actually estimate that the cost of supporting the liberation struggle that Zambia incurred was in the range of US$20 billion. We could have been rich if these conflicts had not taken place. After the conflict, we continued to host people who could not go back home. The report has indicated that even after a campaign for the refugees to go back home, some of them have opted to stay here. We have other consequential problems that we have to sort out in terms of providing land space for these people to be part of the Zambian community. After all, before the scramble for Africa, we were brothers and sisters and some of these boundaries are artificial.

Mr Speaker, the first Government of Zambia did a good job. Therefore, we must congratulate the many senior people here such as Hon. Chikwanda, Mr Vernon Mwaanga and group for the heroic contribution they made. Of course, I will not forget our leader, Dr Kaunda.  

Mr Nkombo: Nkumbula!

Mr Hamududu: There was also Mr Harry Mwaanga Nkumbula, the then leader of the Opposition. By the way, I succeeded him. I stand …


Mr Hamududu: … in the position of the late Harry Mwaanga Nkumbula, the first hon. Member of Parliament for Bweengwa. I wear very big shoes. He was part of the liberation struggle. 

Mr Mufalali: Even Hon. Daniel Munkombwe!

Mr Hamududu: I will also not forget Hon. Daniel Munkombwe, a youth during the days of the struggle for liberation.  


Mr Hamududu: Sir, we are happy to have you in this House so that we do not lose the history of this country. History is important for the future. Perhaps, we need a few people to learn from. Otherwise, in 1991, when there was a change of Government, there was a radical shift to undo the historical role that Zambia had played. There was a fear that the first Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD), under the leadership of Dr Chiluba, wanted to undo everything that the former regime had done. Therefore, we could not co-operate easily with the neighbouring country over the post-liberation struggle construction. In Zambia, there should have been a small marshal plan to repair the infrastructure and to take care of the people who had been displaced. The first MMD …


Mr Deputy Speaker: Order, on my right! We are consulting loudly.

Mr Hamududu: … thought that if it co-operated with the countries that had been liberated with the help of the United National Independence Party (UNIP) Government, it was going to help the UNIP to come back to power. All the potential co-operation was lost. After I failed to find a job in this country, I became an Economic Refugee in Namibia and there was a complaint. They were saying that they wanted to pay us back, but they were being blocked. I remember the Government of Namibia, through the then President, Mr Sam Nujoma, even offered us land in Walvis Bay for Zambia to put up a dry port. 

Hon. Government Member: It is still there.

Mr Hamududu: Sir, Zambia has not taken advantage of that land. They were saying that we are their brothers who helped them and they were opening the Walvis Bay to join the Ndola/Lubumbashi Corridor for trade. They said they were giving it to us for free. They said we should take advantage of that land so that we can have another route to export our goods as a way of saying thank you for the help that we provided to them. To my surprise, the Government has moved in very slowly. I want to urge the able hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs to take advantage of that. If the Government has no money, we can bring in the private sector to take care of that facility. That was a gift. Many of these countries had many incentives to offer as a thank you because they knew the cost that Zambia incurred for the liberation struggle and, consequently, the refugees that were left here. 

Sir, on Friday, Hon. Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo and I were in South Africa. On our way back, we were on the same plane with Dr Kaunda and the Mozambiquan Ambassador. When we reached the airport, the Mozambique Ambassador was so excited to know that we were Zambian hon. Members of Parliament. He complained about why we do not go to their embassy. He went further to appreciate how we helped them. He said that he was coming from Maputo with Dr Kaunda who was conferred with honorary citizenship of Mozambique. He said we should start co-operating with them. He even went further to say that he could give us land. Therefore, I want to say that these countries are opening up their hands, but we are not taking advantage of the investment that we made to help in their liberation struggles.


Mr Hamududu: Sir, in this report, I can only see the Zambian Government and the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR), but I do not see the Angolan Government getting involved. There was a serious cost incurred by this country over Angola.  I think Angola can do much better to help beyond just repatriation because there are serious costs that we incurred. As SADC, I think it is not too late to discuss these issues. After the liberation struggle, really, we should have discussed seriously. We should have discussed issues of how we can now settle down. These people have gone back to their countries and some countries were not as bombarded as the countries where these people stayed. We are happy that most of these leaders, even those who are there today, have a very strong linkage to this country. 

Sir, for example, the President of Namibia was the first representative of the South West Africa People's Organization (SWAPO) in Tanzania. Tanzania became independent a little earlier than Zambia. When Zambia became independent, President Hifikepunye Pohamba was the one who opened SWAPO in this country before they moved into Angola to fight the war along the longer border in Angola. This war happened during the leadership of President Sam Nujoma, the Commander of the People's Liberation Army of Namibia (PLAN). Zambia has such a rich history which we can use to leverage ourselves to get what we want. This can also promote trade and co-operation in many areas otherthan just mere talk of the repatriation of refugees. There are many issues that we can talk about. 

We have an obligation for the children that are deprived of good education today. This is because Zambia, at Independence, was one of the richest countries in Africa. Apart from the internal problems, we also had a problem of the support for the liberation struggle. We should not only talk about the refugee problems, but we should also address other problems. 

Sir, I want to say that Zambia must continue to take a non-aligned and peace-maker approach to the conflict that arise within our neighbourhood and beyond, especially the Great Lakes Region that is very volatile. So, we must not veer off, but continue being a neutral, non-aligned and a peaceful country so that these conflicts do not cross the border. So far, we have done very well and we must continue on that path. 

Mr Speaker, however, there are potential sources of conflict within the countries in the SADC region. If we do not address such issues, other conflicts will arise again. For example, there are simmering ethnic undertones in many countries. You may remember, the post-Independence war in Angola was more of ethnic in nature. In Mozambique and Zimbabwe it was ethnic and, therefore, we must always guard against this potential source of conflict because it can even erupt here. Therefore, the One Zambia, One Nation Motto must continue to be espoused by all of us and we must be committed to it. That is why yesterday, we said that we should not use local languages. Let us not encourage it because of our unique situation. Many countries outside Zambia do not want to take that route in order to avoid sensitivities of ethnicities.

Sir, the other issue has to do with the scramble for the rich natural resources in SADC. The SADC region is the richest region in Africa. We are now discovering oil and we have other minerals like the gemstones, emeralds and diamonds that can easily fuel a conflict. We must always be on guard for a potential conflict arising from the scramble for natural resources. Therefore, the investors who come in our region must be properly scrutinised and they must not engage themselves in the internal politics of our country. These resources are quite profitable and there are many countries that have gone to war because of the scramble for these resources. So, these resources might create a potential conflict and we need to be careful. Our people must begin to benefit from these natural resources and if they do not benefit, then, that becomes a flash point for conflict.

Mr Speaker, the other issue I would like to talk about is the issue of poverty. Zambia and other SADC countries must address this issue and the inequalities. In some of these SADC countries, there are a few rich people and the majority wallow in poverty and the inequalities are increasing. The measure of inequality in Zambia, for example, is about 0.6 and in other SADC countries it is above 0.5. The gini coefficient is a measure of inequality or the level of greediness that exists in a certain country. So, Zambia is becoming a very greedy country. We are talking about congestion in our roads because there are very nice cars, but 1 km away from the center of these highways, there is despicable poverty. Those are potential dangers of conflict and the reason we must address poverty. There can be serious conflict more devastating than the liberation struggle.

Sir, let me talk about the issue of unemployment. Most SADC countries, including Zambia, have a youthful population. The fertility rates are quite high and, therefore, if we do not resolve the issue of unemployment, we are going to have a serious conflict. Most of the youths will be on the streets. That is not a secret because it has happened in other countries. We must quickly develop a double inclusiveness programme and deal with the unemployment levels that exist otherwise this issue of refugees will continue. This is a general problem in the SADC region and it is not only Zambia that is not addressing unemployment. A country like Angola with so much money needs to work on its employment situation and inclusiveness otherwise its people will easily rise up. 

Mr Speaker, the last point that your Committee has raised is about the United Nations General Assembly whose theme was “Post 2015 Development Agenda” and focused on reducing poverty. It was brought out that there should be no poor and hungry person by 2020. So, we must commit ourselves towards this goal because we have fertile soils and good favourable climatic conditions, hence the issue of hunger can be dealt with. So, the people should have enough food. Let us commit ourselves to the Post 2015 Development Agenda. The reason I am mentioning this agenda is that the world today is standing in solidarity and the West has committed itself to providing financing of about 0.7 per cent in the previous dispensation to help us fight the issues of poverty. The United Nations (UN) Secretary-General, Mr. Ban Ki-Moon, said that there are enormous opportunities to deal with issues of poverty, inequalities and unemployment in our countries. 

Mr Speaker, due to time, I will end here, but I would like to thank the Committee and urge the Government to take this report and the issues raised very seriously. I support the report of your Committee.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Kaingu (Mwandi): Mr Speaker, I will not take long on the Floor. I would like to state that it is a very good report and would like to thank the mover of the Motion. 

Sir, so much has been said about how magnanimous Zambia has been to its neighbours. However, something has been troubling me. Despite all this help that we have rendered to the people in our neighbouring countries, they do not seem to appreciate. Our people are being killed and maimed on Lake Mweru, Luapula River, at Mukambo and on the Zambezi River bordering Namibia. Is this the way that our neighbours are going to appreciate a country that has done so much to help them? This has been disturbing me and I want to put it to the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs and, indeed, the Chairperson of the Committee that despite Zambia’s effort to render help to the people that have been running away from their countries, the returns have been in form of Zambians being murdered and injured. 

Mr Speaker, I want to buttress what the last debater said about the history of Zambia. The list of freedom fighters will not be complete without mentioning Mr Nalumino Mundia, …

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Dr Kaingu: … Mr Mungoni Liso and Mr Munukai Mwasipalo. These are our heroes. So, when you start mentioning the people who have contributed, I, as a youth, also contributed to the …

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kaingu: … Independence of Zambia. 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyanda: You were there together with Hon. Mukombwe.

Dr Kaingu: Yes, I was there with Hon. Munkombwe. We were not called youth or youths, but yusi.

Mr Sikazwe: Yusi.

Dr Kaingu: Yes, Yusi in Zambia. I promised that I was not going to take long on the Floor. I just wanted to put it on record that I am disappointed with our neighbours, particularly, the Namibians who are being mentioned here.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

I think that you were on the right track and it will not do us any good, in terms of our international relations, to mention names of countries. However, you can give a general debate.

May you continue.

Dr Kaingu: Sir, I thank you for your guidance. The problem is that they will not know who we are talking about if I speak generally.

Dr Kaingu: We have praised them, but I think that it is not enough to simply praise. We have to put it on record that it is disgusting, to say the least, that our people are victims. I can assure you that before the end of this month, some of our people will be maimed in the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) …

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Dr Kaingu: Yes, it is happening. Do not bury your heads in the sand. 

I was going to demand this of you, but I will not. Rather, I am asking your Government to be pro-active. Those people being killed on Lake Mweru are my brothers.  

Mr Speaker, I wanted to put this on record and support the report. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Dr Musokotwane (Liuwa): Mr Speaker, I thank you for this opportunity to debate. I stand to support this report as well as congratulate the Committee on the work well done. 

Mr Speaker, the general impression I am getting these days is that foreign affairs and foreign policy are having an identity crisis − a crisis of identity, a crisis of relevance to the times that we are living in and on what we need to focus. 

Mr Speaker, several times in this House when a statement is being made by the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs, there are hardly any follow-up questions. A good example is yesterday’s ministerial statement on the 23rd Ordinary Session of the African Union Summit. Many things that are being said these days about foreign affairs are so far-fetched from Zambia’s reality. There are speeches about attending meetings where committee reports about this and that concerning Africa and the world were looked at. There are also statements about forthcoming different committee meetings that Zambia will be part of. 


Dr Musokotwane: These issues do not tie up with the expectations of Zambians. Sir, I am happy that this report has some topics that are relevant to Zambians, especially the one regarding the situation with Angolan refugees.  

Mr Speaker, the people of Liuwa are neighbours with Angola. We first started seeing refugees coming to Liuwa and parts of Kalabo with arms and maimed bodies when the war of independence started ragging way back in the 1960s. We are familiar with this kind of situation. Of course, when the civil war broke out, we, again, witnessed the same situation. Fortunately, most of this chaos is now over, but the effects of that long civil strife are still being experienced by the people of Liuwa. 

Sir, many of us have heard about the murders being committed by the Karavinas in areas near the Angolan Border. These are the effects of the long civil war in Angola. The last time I was in my constituency, the people in parts nearest to the Angolan Border had complaints. One of the complaints was that whereas the Angolans can come into Zambia freely to sell or buy their merchandise from the Zambian side, Zambians cannot. The Angolans even sleep in the villages on this side without any trouble. However, the moment a Zambian crosses the border to Angola to sell something, all sorts of problems arise. Sometimes, they get arrested, their merchandise is confiscated and, sometimes, all sorts of fees are lumped on them. 

Sir, the people of Liuwa are asking whether these are the same people that we hosted for so many years. They are asking whether these are not the people who married and had children here. When they go into Angola to sell their merchandise, and not beg or steal, they face problems. Hon. Minister, the effects of the Angolan civil strife are still there in Liuwa. You need to talk to the Angolans and give this problem its due attention. 

Mr Speaker, years back, as my brother here said, what we were doing was very clear. In the years of the frontline states, it was clear what Zambia was focusing on in terms of foreign affairs. Zambia was known to be the hub of the diplomatic effort to get Southern Africa’s liberation.  

Mr Speaker, after the liberation of Southern Africa, the focus moved to economic diplomacy.  A lot of effort was made to campaign for debt relief, which was achieved. Further, a lot of effort was undertaken in the country which saw income coming to the country. It was as a result of these efforts that money started to come into Zambia. The mining sector, which was beginning to shrink, was revived. This was partly due to economic diplomacy as we lobbied people outside Zambia to invest in the country as it was safe and respected private property. Without that kind of economic diplomacy, the positive aspect in the economy that we are seeing today would not have been realised. 

Today, Sir, a lot of times, foreign policy is incomprehensible, at least, to some of us because it is about high level things such as climate change which has very little relevance to the common man. However, beyond this, we have also seen a very worrying trend where, in certain cases, foreign policy is actually becoming counterproductive. For example, the bilateral level, there is no doubt about the fact that our credibility has suffered in many cases. There is a lack of consistency. The Government will state its policy on China to the Americans, who believe them, and, thereafter, turn against them. 

Mr Speaker, diplomatic etiquette is critical. It was not long ago on a State visit to Botswana that His Excellency the President refused to participate at a luncheon the last minute. It was at the same occasion where, when speaking to Zambian residents there, a lot of unkind words to the Government of Botswana were uttered. Things like this were said, “Why are you people working in Botswana when you are being exploited? Why are you working as accountants here when Botswana only has three supermarkets?” Such utterances cannot endear us to our neighbouring countries. Such things cannot generate co-operation from neighbouring countries. 

Mr Speaker, is it, therefore, not surprising that, today, the number of dignitaries visiting Zambia has shrunk? In terms of economic diplomacy, we have situations whereby, not long ago, chief executives of companies were being deported without solid or understandable reasons. These were chief executives from big companies like conglomerates in the mining and manufacturing sectors. If you do that, how, then, can you send your diplomats to the countries of origin of the deported persons to tell them to tell their nationals to invest in our country? Will those people listen to you? Of course, they will be very polite by sending you cars to receive you at the airport. However, the moment you leave, they will say those people are very good at deporting chief executives and now they think we can go and invest in their countries. We cannot go there. 

Sir, we need to be very clear in our minds about what foreign affairs can do for us. If properly focused and utilised, it can be a big arsenal in the fight against poverty.
Mr Speaker, in conclusion, I want to say that it is time to reflect very honestly on the role that the Ministry of Foreign Affairs is playing. We know, from the past, that this role can be very important in terms of keeping peace in the region and generating investments. As the world becomes a global village, this will become more of the case. However, given what has happened, I think that it is time to reflect seriously, genuinely and honestly to have a turnaround in the way we have done things so far. I do not believe that the Ministry of Foreign Affairs can assist our country. To the contrary, it has already done a lot of damage, but I believe the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs can rise to the occasion and change the situation so that we do not end up spending a lot of money. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs is a very expensive ministry owing to the number of embassies it supports. Therefore, we have to get a relative return on that investment that we are making. It is not for us to have a negative rate of return, because rather than attracting investment, we are pushing it away.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

Prof. Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Mr Speaker, I also rise to support the report, which has been well presented. I have a few comments to make on the whole issue of integrating refugees in our community. 

Sir, the issue of integrating refugees should not be looked at from one perspective. It is, to a large extent, a multi-sectoral problem that ought to be addressed from various dimensions and that our various ministries must address.

Sir, to begin with, the refugees, have a very interesting history to tell. Those of us who used to see them when we were younger in the villages, know that they were called Kamalata from the term comrade and we used to hear a lot of very interesting stories. We used to hear about the problems that they went through when their villages were invaded and how they managed to escape and walked long distances without food and water. We also heard stories of how some of their relatives, friends, and compatriots ended up dying on the way. Sometimes, nasty as it might be, they had to turn to their dead compatriots and feed on them to survive. These are the stories we used to hear when we were young. Clearly, just from that perspective alone, we have a rich history that ought to be recorded, a history of suffering and escaping to a foreign country where one has never been and does not even know the direction, but has to use every means possible to get there. The Ministry of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education has a role to play in recording that history. I think the researchers in our institutions of learning should be able to go down to those who are being integrated and record their history and the traumatic experiences that they went through. I think it is incumbent upon us to do that. That is one aspect.

Mr Speaker, another aspect has to do with the whole issue of security. In a place like the Western Province, we have heard of Karavinas. That is an adulterated name which is taken from the Avtomat Kalashnikov (AK) rifle which, as we know, was designed by Mikhail T. Kalashnikov, who was born in 1919 in Russia, and it came into being in 1947. That assault rifle is what is called, in the ordinary language, Karavina. Clearly, in a place like the Western Province, the ordinary citizen does not have access to the AK 47 rifle but, as we know, that was an assault rifle which was used in the conflict in Angola. That is the rifle that came to our country in large quantities, through, of course, some Angolan citizens and those who are being integrated in our communities today must be brought to the understanding that their task is to have unqualified patriotism to our country. If there is anything that they know about Karavinas and the AK 47 rifles, that information must be laid bare before the Ministry of Home Affairs. The Ministry of Home Affairs, in turn, has a task to ensure that we get rid of the AK 47 assault rifles in our villages because these are still there and in large quantities. 

Sir, we have integrated as many as 10,000 refugees and quite a number of them have information on these Karavinas. They know how they acquire guns, who is stocking them and how they are being used. Therefore, in the interest of the multi-sectoral approach to the integration process, the Ministry of Home Affairs has a critical role to play in that process in the interest of security for our people. 

Mr Speaker, just to add on a bit of information, those who are being killed by the Karavina rifles are just innocent villagers. For example, when an elderly person in the village is accused of witchcraft, Karavinas are hired and …

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, thank you for allowing me to rise on this point of order, reluctantly so. Is the hon. Member on the Floor, who started very well with his discourse, in order to bring the issue of Karavinas and link it to these people who are earmarked for local integration? This issue of Karavinas is totally unrelated to the subject at hand. I seek your serious ruling.

Mr Deputy Speaker: The serious ruling is that he is debating in the context of the report which covers national security. Therefore, I think he is in order.

The hon. Member for Nalikwanda may continue.

Prof. Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, those who are losing their lives through attacks by Karavinas are very innocent, ordinary and elderly men and women in the villages. Therefore, the Ministry of Home Affairs has a role to play in ensuring that the security of our ordinary people in the villages is guaranteed. Therefore, those who are being integrated could provide that valuable information. There could be an entry point to knowing further about how these Karavinas have been brought into our local communities. That is the point I am trying to make and I hope that our very energetic hon. Deputy Minister of Home Affairs will take this advice very seriously because it borders very heavily on the security of our people.

Mr Speaker, the third aspect to the whole issue of integration is what is happening to our environment. When you travel from Kaoma to Mongu, you see a lot of charcoal bags. Without any iota of discrimination on my part, I must state that it is commonly known that those who are involved in charcoal burning in that part of our country are, to a large extent, our brothers and sisters from Angola. That is a fact which we all know. When you look at the degree of deforestation that has happened between Kaoma and Mongu, it is extremely alarming. 

Clearly, the Ministry of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection has a role to play here to educate our brothers and sisters, who are being integrated, that what they are doing is a destruction of the environment, which should not be tolerated. We have had discussions this week on the extermination of indigenous species, which are extremely valuable in our forests. In that part of the country between Kaoma and Mongu, again, most of those who are involved, to a large extent, unfortunately, are our brothers and sisters who have settled in that part of the country along the trunk road. 

Clearly, Sir, we need to sensitise and educate them that what is going on is not permissible. We need to give them skills so that they can turn to other ways of earning a living other than destruction of the environment. This is why I am saying that the issue of integration is a multi-sectoral one. Here, again, another ministry has a role to play in that process.

Mr Speaker, our brothers and sisters from Angola have a very rich culture, like most of our communities in the country. They have very rich traditions and clearly these must be tapped into. Ways and means must be found to channel these rich traditions to become integral parts of our own rich cultures, traditions and customs. Here, again, the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs has a big role to play in the process of integration of our brothers and sisters in our local communities.

Sir, there are many other areas that require a multi-sectoral approach to ensure that the resettlement of the former refugees in our environment is smooth, productive and contributes to our rich traditions and culture and our development goals and aspirations. I hope that beyond the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, other ministries will find ways and means of ensuring that those who are integrated become truly Zambian without any misgivings.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Sir, I just have one point that I would like to pivot around in supporting the report of your Committee and that is to do with the advantages and disadvantages of integration. It is a stubborn fact that integration does have an effect on sovereignty. In this case, sovereignty is the very fabric of who we are and what keeps our egos going to do the things that our culture demands. 

Sir, the situation is the same in international or regional integration, in the case of say the European Union (EU) where they have opened borders or even in our trajectories in the Southern African Development Community (SADC) region, where we, one day, anticipate to have open borders, use common currency and enter into a customs union. There are serious ramifications and disadvantages that are associated with integration.

Sir, bringing the matter closer to home, my point is the issue of integrating 10,000 refugees into our communities. Welcome as it may be, and understanding very well that we are party to many international treaties and protocols, by no choice, we have to integrate these people from Angola. 

My intervention to the hon. Minister of Home Affairs is to state that Zambia is a huge country. I will take Maheba and Mayukwayukwa as examples where integration has taken place. Owing to the dictates of nature, these people and their families marry and have children and it is a known fact that the family is the smallest unit of social order. So, it is at that stage that I am saying that Zambia is a huge country and the Government requires opening up the country to settle these individuals. 

Mr Speaker, if the Government will continue with what has been going on in the past that it only integrates them into, for example, the Mangango, Lukulu and Kaoma areas, there is a likelihood of xenophobia, some of it is called tribalism if it is brought to a local level, especially if the local leadership of those areas, the traditional owners of the land, are not made part and parcel of the integration processes. 

Sir, going by what the immediate past debater, Hon. Prof. Geoffrey Lungwangwa, said, when you are a refugee, you are basically confined to this refugee camp. What that means is that your ability to engage in economic activities is limited only to the environment you are in. So, there is a risk of hostility if these people will continue being localised within the same region.

Sir, I imagine that in certain sparsely populated areas like Shiwang’andu, you can establish that integration process so that they are welcome in this country, but generally dotted around all over so that they do not present the risk of a population burst which will, in turn, cause them to establish their own administrative structures which will be in conflict with the existing status quo. In short, I am agreeing that integration of these 10,000 people must happen, but consider decanting them into smaller groups of, maybe, five hundred, three hundred or two hundred, depending on their social orders. If there is a family of uncle, nephew and children, you can say all of you twenty are now going to go under the chiefdom of Mwine Lubemba, Chitimukulu, you are going to Chief Mukuni and you are going to Chief Mpezeni. However, the moment you are going to just keep this ground swell of people of the same ethnic grouping, …

Dr Kaingu: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: … you will eventually find that they will feel suppressed. Suppressed people can only be suppressed for a certain period of time because, rightfully so, they have a lesser claim to their human rights in that locality than the traditional owners of the land. In order for you to circumvent that, you need to educate the whole country so that you take some to Chief Malembeka and some to Chief Mwanachingwala where there is a lot of pastoral land and integrate them properly so that they are not just integrated into a society, but also into the cultural setting of the society you are bringing them in.

Sir, as I promised at the beginning of my discourse, that was my only point. You should not create other camps of change of status from refugees to now Zambians of a certain origin because they will regroup. Once they regroup, the obvious thing that you will see is conflict. 

Sir, I thank you for having permitted me to debate.

The Minister of Home Affairs (Dr Simbyakula): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to respond on behalf of the Executive. Permit me, at the outset, to pay tribute to your Committee under the able chairmanship of the Hon. Rev. Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha, for this edifying report which is before this House this morning. Let me also thank the various hon. Members that have contributed to the debate on the Motion.

Mr Speaker, as this august House undoubtedly knows, because of our geo-political position in the Southern African region and increasingly because of the economic opportunities that are subsisting in our country, Zambia has, since Independence, provided a safe haven for our sisters and brothers fleeing from strife in their own countries. Not only from countries around us, but even from countries as far as Somalia, the Sudan, Burundi and Rwanda. 

Mr Speaker, we have noted, with happiness, that stability has returned to most of these countries and former refugees are voluntarily returning to their home countries while others, of course, have opted for local integration. 

Sir, I would be failing in my duty if I did not seize this occasion to applaud Zambians and the traditional leadership living on our borders. It is these humble Zambians who actually give sanctuary and bear the brunt of hosting refugees when they first cross our borders into Zambia before the Government and the international community intervenes. 

Mr Speaker, this year, as we all know, we will be celebrating our Golden Jubilee. As Zambians, we must always continue to thank God …

Mr Yaluma’s cell phone rang.

Dr Simbyakula: … for he has been so kind to us, as a nation. We have continued to enjoy peace for the last fifty years. Of course, once in a while, we may irritate each other, but it ends there. Zambia has truly been an oasis of peace.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, on a point of order.

Mr Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Nkombo: I am so sorry, Mr Speaker and Hon. Minister of Home Affairs, to have to stand in this fashion. Sir, my point of order is on the Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education, Prof. John Phiri.

Dr Kaingu: No. Doctor.

Mr Nkombo: Doctor John Phiri.

Dr Kaingu: Do not just give titles anyhow.

Mr Nkombo: Sir, standing as a very dedicated member of the Privileges Committee, who must at all times help you with the proceedings of the House, is the hon. Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education, Dr John Phiri, together with those people behind in order to try to stop your officers from confiscating a cellular phone from the hon. Minister of Mines, Energy and Water Development, when we know clearly, going by the precedent that was set when the hon. Member of Parliament for Chipangali was censored in this House for coming with a cellular phone or ipad, that cellular phones are not allowed in the House? Is he, in order to threaten your officer from doing his job by collecting a cellular phone which, ordinarily, should be handed back to the hon. Minister when Parliament adjourns sine die? Is he in order, Sir.


Mr Deputy Speaker: He is definitely not in order. We make our own rules and officers only implement them. Let us also minimise on our points of order as the hon. Minister speaks.

The hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs may continue.

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Speaker, I was saying that, as Zambians, we must always continue to thank God for the blessings of peace that he has continued to shower on us. We have lived in peace for the last fifty years and it has not been by accident. We actually work at it. We inter-marry and have the institution of cousinship. For example, Mr Speaker, I am a half-caste. I am half a Tonga Bull and half from this side.

Hon. Members: Which side?


Dr Simbyakula: So, the country is full of my cousins.

Hon. Member: Which side do you come from?

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Speaker, some countries in some regions are still haunted by ghosts from their past. Here, in Zambia, most of the tribes migrated from elsewhere and there were some skirmishes. The Bembas had a skirmish with the Ngonis. I do not know who won. 

Hon. Member: The Bemba’s won. 


Dr Simbyakula: Then, of course, the Lozis and Tonga’s had some skirmishes, …


Dr Simbyakula: … but out of these encounters, something very positive came out. We turned them into cousinship which we use today to unify us. In some countries, those skirmishes from the past still haunt them and create refugees who flee into Zambia. The Great Lakes Region is one such region which is still very volatile, as Hon. Hamududu had pointed out, and will continue to be a source of refugees for some time to come because of the ghosts from its past. As part of our foreign policy, Zambia will continue to work with other countries in the region to bring about peace in the troubled Great Lakes Region.

Mr Speaker, at this juncture, let me turn to some specific interventions from the hon. Members …


Mr Deputy Speaker: The people sitting behind the hon. Minister, who is debating, are consulting rather too loudly.

Hon. Minister, you may continue.

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Speaker, Hon. Nkombo raised a very valid point. As they say, great minds think alike. We were actually debating this issue at our chambers at the Ministry of Home Affairs. We looked at what happened in Crimea. A certain society from a particular country settled there and grew big. So, that other country has come to claim that region. Similarly, when we do this integration here and localise people from a particular country in one region, we will form a small Rwanda, a small Angola or a small Congo in Zambia and those countries might come to trouble our children’s children and say that this is part of our country. So, that point is well taken, Hon. Nkombo. The Government is going to address that.

Mr Nkombo: I give you a standing ovation.


Mr Nkombo rose and left the Assembly Chamber.

Mr Deputy Speaker: He is not in order. He is supposed to give you a standing ovation, but is walking out.


Dr Simbyakula: He is walking away.


Mwimba H. Malama: He is a joker.

Dr Simbyakula: He knows that he owes me something. 


Dr Simbyakula: Mr Speaker, in terms of foreign policy, Zambia believes in good neighbourliness and shall continue to live by that policy. 

Mr Speaker, one hon. Member in this House said that Zambia has not been visited by dignitaries. That is not accurate. Not too long ago, the Secretary-General of the United Nations sat in that very Chair and addressed us. Mr Ban Ki-Moon was here. The Vice-President of the People’s Republic of China was here and, in fact, I was his Minister of Honour. As we speak, the prince and princess – banani balya – from Japan …

Hon. Government Member: Akishino.

Dr Simbyakula: … I think have left this morning, right?

Hon. Government Member: Yes.

Dr Simbyakula: They were here.

Hon. Opposition Member: Those are small people.

Dr Simbyakula: The spouse of the Vice-President of the United States is here. Former President of the United States, Mr George Bush Jr., was here and the Foreign Affairs Minister of England is coming.


Dr Simbyakula: So, in spite of what the hecklers are saying, people are visiting Zambia. Why? It is because of the economic opportunities, the peace and, generally, the beautiful people of Zambia.

Mr Speaker, as I conclude, I would like to say that we have taken note of the various recommendations and observations made by your Committee and the hon. Members who have spoken and contributed to the debate on this Motion and will take them into account as we shape our Refugees Policy and Foreign Policy. 

With those few words, I thank you, Sir.

Rev. Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha: Mr Speaker, I want to thank all the hon. Members who have contributed and given this report their wonderful attention. I want to thank the hon. Minister for saying that he knows the issues pertaining to our people that are being killed in Mweru Wantipa, around the borders and those that are being arrested in Angola and that the Government will do something about it.

Mr Speaker, I want to thank the members of the Committee that worked so hard to come up with your report.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Question put and agreed to.


The Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication, Chief Whip and Acting Leader of Government Business in the House (Mr Mukanga): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.


The House adjourned at 1213 hours until Wednesday, 9th July, 2014.