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Debates- Tuesday, 15th July, 2014
DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE THIRD SESSION OF THE ELEVENTH ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 15th July, 2014
The House met at 1430 hours
[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]
NATIONAL ANTHEM
PRAYER
________
ANNOUNCEMENT BY MR SPEAKER
THE ZAMBIA/ZIMBABWE FOOTBALL AND NETBALL TOURNAMENT
Mr Speaker: I wish to inform the House that we have just returned from Livingstone, where I led a Parliamentary delegation for the football and netball tournament with our Zimbabwean counterparts.
Hon. Members, I must state from the outset that the games provided a very pleasant platform to interact and socialise with our colleagues from the Republic of Zimbabwe.
Mr Ng’onga: Hear, hear!
Mr Speaker: Let me further state and seize this opportunity to congratulate our female hon. Members of Parliament, or parents, on winning the netball game by 5 goals to 3.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Speaker: Conversely, our male colleagues produced rather surprising results …
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Speaker: … but after much introspection, …
Laughter
Mr Speaker: … I conjecture …
Laughter
Mr Speaker: … or strongly suspect that for diplomatic reasons, the football team decided to conced two goals and as if that was not enough, they also shied away from scoring any goal.
Laughter
Mr Speaker: Be that as it may, on behalf of the House, I wish to congratulate all the hon. Members that participated and travelled to Livingstone on their splendid performance.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Speaker: I would also like to extend our appreciation to His Royal Highness Senior Chief Mukuni for accepting to grace the occasion although he told me that if I had gone in earlier, he would have done something supernatural.
Laughter
Mr Speaker: I would also like to thank the Provincial Minister for his support and his readiness to be on the bench.
Laughter
Mr Speaker: Further, I would also like to thank the municipal authority in Livingstone, the Zambia Police Service for escorting us to and from Livingstone, the Department of Immigration Authority for facilitating easy movement by our colleagues from Zimbabwe, Zambia Revenue Authority, the Zambia National Tourism Board for showcasing our tourist Capital, the Zambia National Information Service (ZANIS) and other media organisations for their contribution to the success of the tournament and last, but not the least, the Clerk of the National Assembly for Zambia and her staff for making sure that our travel and stay in Livingstone was as comfortable as it could possibly be. Perhaps, it is due to the comfort that those diplomatic decisions were made.
Laughter
I thank you.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
_______
MINISTERIAL STATEMENT
THE CONSTRUCTION OF HEALTH POSTS
The Minister of Health (Dr Kasonde): Mr Speaker, I would like to thank you for granting me this opportunity to update the House and the nation at large on the construction of 650 health posts countrywide.
Sir, this programme was announced by His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Michael Chilufya Sata, in his Address to this august House in September, 2012.
Mr Speaker, the total cost of this project is United States Dollars (US) ($)55.9 million and is being financed jointly by the governments of India and Zambia. India has provided a US $50 million concessional loan to the Government of Zambia while the Zambian Government is contributing US $5.9 million. The loan agreement was signed on 29th March, 2012.
Mr Speaker, for easy management of the procurement process, the 650 health posts will be split into three lots in order to minimise the risk that may result if all the health posts were awarded to one contractor. The lots were awarded as follows:
Contractor Contract Details Contract Sum Duration
(USD$)
Jaguar Overseas Lot 1: Construction 19,468,236.00 Two years
Ltd of Prefabricated Structures, (116,809,416.00) (24 months)
Supply and Installation of
Essential Equipment for 208 Health
Posts in Central, Copperbelt and
Eastern Provinces
Angelique Lot 2: Construction of
Pre-fabricated Structures 18,100,735.00 Two Years
International Ltd Supply and Installation of (108,604,410.00) (24 months)
Essential Equipment for 247
Health Posts in North Western,
Northern, Muchinga and
Luapula Provinces
Megha Lot 3: Construction 18,387,160.00 Two Years
Engineering of Pre-fabricated (110,322,960.00) (24 months)
and Infrastructure Structures, Supply and
Ltd Installation of Essential
Equipment for 195 Health
Posts in Western, Southern
And Lusaka Provinces
Total US$ 55,956,131.00
ZMW Equivalent to $1:ZMW6 333,736,786.00
Mr Speaker, these contracts were signed on 3rd July, 2013. However, the project could not commence immediately as there was still a need for the Government to await a no-objection from the Exim Bank of India, who are the appointed agents of the Government of India to administer the loan. A no-objection was granted on 10th January, 2014. Sir, since then, progress has been made as follows:
Between February and April, 2014, my ministry launched the construction of health posts in all the provinces and the contractors have taken possession of the sites as from 25th April and are currently drilling boreholes. Since these are pre-fabricated structures, the works have three main phases, namely substructure works, installation of pre-fabricated structures and installation of equipment. The pre-fabricated structures and equipment shall be shipped from India and installed as per various schedules that have been given to us by the contractors. A summarised implementation schedule is as follows:
LOT 1 – JAGUAR OVERSEAS LTD
Province Sub Structure Works Installation of Pre-fabs Installation of Equipment
Start Finish Start Finish Start Finish
Copperbelt 05.05.14 28.08.15
Central 10.08.14 28.10.15 15.10.14 30.12.15 17.10.14 30.12.15
Eastern 05.07.14 28.10.15
LOT 2 – ANGELIQUE INTERNATIONAL LTD
Province Sub Structure Works Installation of Pre-fabs Installation of Equipment
Start Finish Start Finish Start Finish
Luapula 16.06.14 05.10.14
North- Western 01.08.14 31.07.15 01.02.15 15.02.16 30.06.15 30.04.16
Northern 01.11.14 15.07.15
Muchinga 01.12.14 30.07.15
LOT 3- MEGHA ENGINEERING INTERNATIONAL LTD
Province Sub Structure Works Installation of Pre-fabs Installation of Equipment
Start Finish Start Finish Start Finish
Lusaka 01.07.14 06.10.14
Western 07.07.14 16.01.15 20.01.15 09.12.15 25.05.15 09.12.15
Southern 14.07.14 13.03.15
Mr Speaker, all these projects are expected to be completed within a twenty-four month period and shall have a positive impact on the health service delivery, especially in rural areas. The target of the Patriotic Front (PF) Government is to ensure that there is a health facility within a 5 km radius to reduce the distance that citizens have to cover to access health services, particularly women.
Sir, a meeting was held with all three contractors on 8th July, 2014 during which they all confirmed that all the 650 health posts shall be completed within the twenty-four month period. The following are some of the areas where actual work has commenced as per the contractor’s schedule:
Sir, on the Copperbelt, in Kitwe, borehole and hand pumps were fixed while foundations have been commenced at Hybrid and Macademia. In Kalulushi, a borehole and hand pumps have been fixed, while in Chipata bush clearing and foundations have commenced. In Luapula, Angelique International Ltd commenced foundations in ten out of twelve sites in Mansa/Chembe while works in the North-Western Province are expected to commence this week.
Mr Speaker, Mega Engineering which is working in Kaoma and Chongwe/Rufunsa has taken possession of the site and commenced setting out of buildings and excavations are in progress. I shall make these tables available to hon. Members so that they have a clear picture of these schedules.
Sir, let me conclude by assuring hon. Members that my ministry will continue to monitor progress regularly to ensure that this vital project is completed successfully within the contractual time frame.
I thank you, Sir.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Speaker: Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the statement given by the hon. Minister of Health.
Dr Kalila (Lukulu East): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has stated that these health posts are made of pre-fabricated materials, …
Mr Mbewe: On a point of order, Sir.
Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.
Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, this has something to do with a national assignment which was undertaken by the hon. Members who travelled to Livingstone.
Laughter
Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, we have very serious and talented hon. Members of Parliament in this House, who can play football. Is the captain of the team, who is the hon. Member for Shiwang’andu, in order to continuously leave out very honourable Members who can play this game very well? The hon. Members such as Hon. GBM, Number 7, …
Laughter
Mr Mbewe: … Hon. Prof. Lungwangwa, Number 11, …
Laughter
Mr Mbewe: … and Hon. Muntanga, Number 9, as well as the hon. Minister of Community Development, Mother and Child Health as a goalkeeper.
Laughter
Mr Mbewe: Sir, I need your serious ruling.
Laughter
Mr Speaker: My ruling is that, in view of the obviously exceptional qualities of those named hon. Members of Parliament, I think the hon. Member and Minister was certainly out of order to leave these very talented players in those very important positions.
Laughter
Dr Kalila: Mr Speaker, listening to the hon. Minister of Health giving us a statement on these health posts gives me an impression that his ministry is not in control of this project. Was he part of the negotiating team as regards the loan agreement for this project? Further, he has not told us the durability of these health posts other than that they will be made out of pre-fabricated materials. Was it prudent to negotiate for such structures as opposed to brick and mortar ones?
Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, yes, the Ministry of Health was part of the negotiations. As the hon. Member is aware, there were other ministries involved, particularly the Ministry of Finance. The issue regarding whether it should be pre-fabs or customary brick and mortar structures was very seriously considered. We took into account the availability of funds and the needs as we saw them and as perceived by our colleagues. Following a serious examination and assessment, it was decided that the two issues of coverage and speed would both be served by pre-fabs. That was definitely a decision arrived at after serious discussion and consultation with appropriate persons.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Mwila (Chipili): Mr Speaker, I want to find out …
Mr Muntanga: On a point of order, Sir.
Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.
Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, divided we fall and united we stand. My point of order is in relation to our recent friendly games with our Zimbabwean counterparts. According to the Fédération Internationale de Football Association (FIFA) regulations, teams and players should be accommodated in a five-star hotel before a football game.
However, in our situation, the very few who stayed at a five-star hotel were mostly defenders. They were properly cared for such that they gained weight and could not defend. On the other hand, the strikers were accommodated in a lowly-classified hotel. They were not properly fed and, therefore, could not even kick the ball towards goal.
Laughter
Mr Muntanga: Is our team manager in order not to follow the FIFA regulations to accommodate and travel in the same transport with all the hon. Members so that they did not lose the eagerness to play football?
Laughter
Mr Speaker: Well, I think I will reserve my ruling.
Laughter
Mr Mwila: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister happy with the arrangements put in place by the Government for the US$50 million loan? Do we expect another statement from him because I have told the people of Chipili several times about this issue?
Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, it is my intention to keep the House informed on whatever progress is made regarding this project. I do not think we can predict which date will be most suitable to do so, but we can certainly assure ourselves that information will flow sufficiently to keep hon. Members satisfied.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Mtolo (Chipata Central): Sir, in his statement, the hon. Minister indicated that the pre-fabs will actually coming from India. This morning, I was listening to one of the international radio stations and it was educating us that as African states, for whatever we get from the western world and other donors, be it a loan or otherwise, we actually suffer a net loss in terms of real cash flows. In other words, by doing things in the manner this project is being implemented, we are not empowering the local industry which could have made these pre-fabs here or even nearer, if we do not have the capacity. Why would surely pre-fabs come all the way from India? What is the cost of the ocean freight for this? Therefore, is this a prudent decision?
Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, …
Interruptions
Ms Kapata: Si mwenze kudya, imwe?
Mr Mucheleka: So, naimwe mu kudya?
Laughter
Mr Speaker: Order! Let us have some order!
Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, I concede that if these materials had been obtained from Chipata, we would definitely have paid less. As it happens, the condition for getting finances for this project made it necessary for those pieces of equipment to be obtained from India. It was part of the agreement. Should we have said no to the US$50 million, our desire to purchase this equipment from within Zambia would have been a theory rather than practice or should we have accepted that within our constraints, as we saw them, this was the right thing to do? We decided that this was the right thing to do.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Livune (Katombola): Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister confirm that his Government is not in control of the situation regarding the US$50 million loan. I say so because the Indian Government has imposed its contractors and ensured that the money will remain in India, thus the bringing in of the pre-fabs to Zambia, leaving our contractors without any benefit whatsoever.
Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, I can certainly assure the hon. Member for Katombola that the Zambian Government is fully in control and in-charge.
Hon. Opposition Members: No!
Dr Kasonde: Therefore, the concern about the contribution of Zambians to this project was taken into account to the extent that it was agreed that 20 per cent of all the contractual works had to go to the Zambian collaborators for the contractors. These Zambians are, in fact, deeply involved at the early stages prior to the installation of pre-fabs. Therefore, the very first benefit has gone to Zambians. We look forward to their good performance because what they are being allocated is basic infrastructure, which is the most important in any of these fabrications.
I thank you, Sir.
Ms Lubezhi (Namwala): Mr Speaker, in his statement, the hon. Minister did not at all mention if the plan for this project includes construction of staff houses. If at all it does, how many staff houses will be constructed per health post?
Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, construction of staff houses has not been included in the US$50 million loan.
Interruptions
Dr Kasonde: This is because that is what we are talking of in terms of the Zambian contribution. So, it is not part of the US$50 million, but is a part of the project.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Bwalya: Mr Speaker, if I heard the hon. Minister correctly, he said that the works for the country was divided into three lots and that Angelique International Ltd has four provinces. I would like to find out from him whether the conditions in the loan agreement state that this project should be restricted to only three contractors. Certain areas are vast and, therefore, would it not have been better to have more than three contractors?
Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, in fact, the sequence of events was that the Zambian Government was requested to invite only one contractor. The Zambian Government negotiated to split the works into three. It seemed to be practical in terms of the amount of work as well as the amount of money which was approximately US$18 million per contract. A larger number would have made it so small that it would have been impractical whereas a smaller number, namely one was definitely too small to be sure that the country would be covered adequately.
I thank you, Sir.
Dr Kaingu (Mwandi): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has confirmed to us that there will be no houses built. Hon. Minister, do you not think that the human resource that you will send to go and help the people will be staying in the clinics?
Mr Muntanga laughed.
Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, I seem not to have been understood and must repeat this. What I said was that we were not going to use loan funds for housing. Our contribution, as Zambia, will be for housing and other requirements for the operation of the health posts. Perhaps now that I am understood, I shall get the support of the hon. Member.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Chipungu (Rufunsa): Mr Speaker, I wish to concur with Hon. Mwila over his sentiments that, actually, we are tired of telling our people in various constituencies about these health posts and when they will be constructed. I, therefore, would like to find out from the hon. Minister if it is not possible to avail the details of the contractor in Lusaka Province to me in particular so that we could, maybe, meet him and lobby them since they are now on the ground doing the work.
Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, I feel encouraged by the hon. Member who desires to participate in the exercise of supervising the works that will be going on over the next two years. I would like to invite other Members of the House to similarly participate. This is, in fact, what we have done wherever we have launched these posts. We have taken with us these contractors and have said meet them, get to know them and let us collaborate. I thank the hon. Member.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Antonio (Kaoma Central): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister is telling us that these clinics or health centres or posts will have no houses for the workers. May he kindly unveil the position of the Government on the construction of houses for these clinics because, from the look of things, these clinics will be white elephants?
Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, before we continue, please, let us follow the responses from the hon. Minister because he has already explained this. In fact, even to allow the previous question was just to allow a repetition. This was going to be the third time this was asked. Let us follow the responses very closely. There are some conversations going on and those who would like to converse, hon. Members, have the liberty to leave the House, complete their conversations and come back. We need to concentrate. Your colleague there is responding to a lot of serious questions here.
There is no need for the hon. Minister to answer that question.
Ms Imenda (Luena): Mr Speaker, we are told that this is a loan. Did we go to negotiate for such conditionalities like pre-fabricated structures and the choice or the imposition of contractors for this loan from India?
Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, I said and will continue to say that, yes, we negotiated in India and in Zambia with our counterparts in the Government of India. The conditions that we adopted were those that were accepted during that negotiation, and for each line of contractual agreement we are able to say why that agreement was reached. These contracts are available. I cannot quote them in here, but that is the case. It is a negotiation with a conclusion because of the negotiation and for the negotiation.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Chishimba (Kamfinsa): Mr Speaker, yesterday, your hon. Deputy Minister was on radio and television saying that there is a shortage of manpower in the health sector. May I find out where you are going to get personnel to work in the 650 health posts which you are going to build countrywide. Are you going to reduce the training duration for nurses so that you can train many nurses to work in those health posts?
Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, let us just ask questions and not provide answers.
Laughter
Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, yes, we have taken into account the need for appropriate staff to be prepared to take on this task when the health posts have been built. Owing to that, we decided on two things. First, that special training shall be given to a category of workers who will be able to cope with the frontline and be able to refer cases. Therefore, we already have graduated 300 workers with this particular training, and there are now just below 300 in training. We are talking of these health posts being completed over the next two years. In our timetable for training those workers, we believe we are more than ready to accommodate the workers for this function.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Mwale (Chipangali): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister did not fully address the question raised by Hon. Dr Kalila on the durability of these pre-fabricated structures. Can he categorically say what the lifespan of these pre-fabricated buildings is?
Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, I do not know the exact figure off-hand. I am sure that it is stated in our contract and it may be available, but I do not have it right now.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Speaker, pre-fabricated structures are pre-designed. This, therefore, means that the contracting teams will not require expertise such as architects and engineers, but will consist mainly of supervisors. Given that scenario, may I find out from the hon. Minister whether or not his ministry will consider encouraging the contractors to increase the number of artisans and workers attached to this project to ensure that the construction time is reduced from two years to utmost one year so that the people are provided with these much-needed health posts?
Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, I appreciate the need for these health posts to become available as soon as possible. At the same time, Sir, we, in all cases of contractual agreement, set dates for the satisfactory completion of the work subject to our regular inspection. I do not think that we should enter into what could be done during this period in varying the type of staff or material that they use. What we decide is the outcome. We insist on having quality outcome in a given period of time and I think that therein lies whatever is needed for a contractor to know how many staff he will require. This, I think, is a practical approach.
I thank you, Sir.
Mrs Mazoka (Pemba): Mr Speaker, may I find out from the hon. Minister whether the health posts will have admission wards?
Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, the whole point of a first contact health institution is that people need not be kept as in-patients. In this regard, let me emphasise a principle which we all have adopted but which, for some reason, has been a delayed concept to implement, namely that the first contact health worker is available to everybody at a given time, but the contact health worker is not the one that is going to look after the patient in terms of in-patient care.
Sir, this is why primary medical care in some countries consists of general practitioners in their surgeries. We must work towards a situation in which most people who want a service in the medical field do not need a bed. One should only go and see and consult, and a decision is then made as to whether or not that person goes to a place which requires a bed.
Sir, this is a fundamental principle of primary care and if we deviate from that, we are going to get into trouble. We must pursue it to its logical end.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister how many staff houses will be built by the Government of the Republic of Zambia at each particular health post and when the contracts for the construction of these houses will be granted?
Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, I agree that the idea of accommodation for our staff is extremely important and that we must take this in the context of the number of health staff that I have mentioned. I have said that in this case, we shall expect the function of one person. This may mean two people in order to maintain that function of one person always being available. We have, therefore, started with ensuring that each of these health posts will have, at least, one house built by the Government and the need for any other shall be worked out with the community and with those who support that health community. That is how we are proceeding.
Sir, we can guarantee that there will be no health post requested to start its work without a house being available for the health worker who shall be the first person to be appointed. However, we must also agree that within that lies a local negotiation and a local assessment of demand which will determine the ultimate number for each health post.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Mufalali (Senanga): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out why the hon. Minister and his hon. Deputy keep on contradicting each other. Hon. Minister, whilst your hon. Deputy Minister was in the Western Province, he threatened to terminate the contract with the contractor contracted to build health posts. Why are you saying that these health posts are on schedule and way ahead when the hon. Deputy Minister is saying that he will terminate the contracts? When do we see the termination?
Ms Lubezhi: Hear, hear!
Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, thank you for drawing my attention to some of the extra curricula activities that my hon. Deputy Minister has been doing in your province …
Hon. Opposition Members: Extra curriculum?
Dr Kasonde: … and I shall definitely follow up on any such activities to a logical conclusion.
However, if I interpreted what the hon. Deputy Minister was saying correctly, it was that at a certain time, we became concerned that progress was not as rapid as we had anticipated. At that point, I called the contractors to the office for a meeting so that it could be clear that delays cannot be allowed. Therefore, it was correct for the hon. Deputy Minister to continue in this process of constantly making it clear that we shall not tolerate failure to produce results. This is the message that we were trying to pass. We did not have any individual contract that we thought should be terminated at this stage, but we had those contracts available to make sure we never get to the stage at which we have to terminate them. Minus any other things that my hon. Deputy Minister may have done or said, that will be my answer.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Mweetwa (Choma): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to ask the very last question to the hon. Minister who has given very good answers and, in my view, very innocent, as he usually does.
Laughter
Mr Mweetwa: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has given a definite time period within which these projects should be completed. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister why hon. Members and the members of the public should believe what you are saying given that the people of Zambia do not trust the Government and the statements that it makes.
Mr Sing’ombe: Hear, hear!
Mr Mweetwa: You have made various statements before where, at an appropriate and convenient time to yourselves, you U-turn. Why should we now take your word seriously when you know that people know you to be unreliable and untrustworthy?
Laughter
Dr Kasonde: I am glad that the hon. Member for Choma has raised the issue of mistrust and distrust. I have always accepted the total trustworthiness of the questions that hon. Member asks and have never grown to understand not to expect too much and I am not getting too much.
Laughter
QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER
ADDITIONAL CLASSROOM BLOCKS IN LUPOSOSHI CONSTITUENCY
586. Mr Bwalya (Lupososhi) asked the Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education when construction of additional classroom blocks, in accordance with the Infrastructure Operational Plan (IDP), at the following schools in Lupososhi Parliamentary Constituency would commence:
(a) Chungu;
(b) Mutondo;
(c) Kapupu; and
(d) Kabombo.
The Deputy Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education (Mr Mabumba): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the House that the District Education Board Secretary (DEBS) for Luwingu plans to construct additional classroom blocks at the four schools in a phased approach. In view of that, in 2015, the DEBS plans to construct classrooms at Kapupu and Kabombo Schools, while Chungu and Mutondo Schools will be considered later.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Bwalya: Mr Speaker, these schools were constructed in 1931 and their infrastructure is completely dilapidated. Hon. Minister, the plan was made to construct these schools, but no funding has been made to that effect since 2012. How sure are we that this time around, the two schools that you have mentioned will be constructed in 2015? Will this be factored in the 2015 Budget?
Mr Mabumba: Mr Speaker, we will factor in the construction of those schools in the 2015 Budget.
I thank you, Sir.
BOREHOLES IN KAFULAFUTA CONSTITUENCY
587. Mr Chitafu (Kafulafuta) asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing:
(a) how many boreholes were sunk in Kafulafuta Parliamentary Constituency in 2013; and
(b) how many boreholes were earmarked to be sunk in 2014.
The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr Kufuna): Mr Speaker, eight boreholes were sunk in the constituency and sited in the Mukolwe, Kaindu, Chimbalanga, Nkambo, Sipopa, Chitibuke, Sensele and Mwatishi areas.
Mr Speaker, five boreholes are earmarked to be sunk in the constituency in 2014.
I thank you, Sir.
COMMUNITY CONSERVATION LAND
588. Mr Ng’onga (Kaputa) asked the Minister of Tourism and Art:
(a) how much land was required to establish a community conservation area;
(b) how the Government could assist the community in Kaputa District to establish the Kaputa Community Conservation Area; and
(c) how long it takes for the Government to stock a conservation area with wildlife.
The Deputy Minister of Tourism and Art (Mr Evans): Mr Speaker, according to the Zambia Wildlife Authority Act No. 12 of 1998, a community conservation area as a protected area category does not exist. However, the community conservation area refers to a piece of land …
Interruptions
Mr Speaker: Order!
May I have order on the right.
Mr Evans: … put aside for re-stocking wild animals for the purpose of conservation. The minimum size of land required depends on the type or use of the conservation area. If the area is to stock animals for commercial use, a minimum area of land required is 1,400 ha. Such land must be an open area and not a Game Management Area (GMA).
Mr Speaker, the Government can assist by availing Zambia Wildlife Authority (ZAWA) personnel to assess the suitability of the area and advise what type of animals should be stocked in the area. After this assessment, the Government, through ZAWA, would offer animals for sale at a fee to the community. ZAWA would also assist in relocating animals from where they are captured to the conservation area, and the community would pay for the exercise. However, if the conservation area is established in partnership with ZAWA, the animals would be donated as part of the contribution of ZAWA.
Mr Speaker, as stated above, it is not the Government that stocks the area, but the Government would provide animals for stocking the area at a fee. Therefore, it is up to the community to expedite the process and raise the funds required.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Ng’onga: Mr Speaker, if a community is prepared, but has no financial resources, what other means are available within the ministry to assist the community to achieve the important conservation programme?
Mr Evans: Mr Speaker, as I answered in part (b) of the question, if ZAWA is involved in this programme, it can help the community by donating those animals.
I thank you, Sir.
GRANTS TO LOCAL AUTHORITIES
589. Mr Mucheleka (Lubansenshi) asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing:
(a) when the Government would release grants to the Local Authorities for restructuring of council establishments; and
(b) when the Government would provide funds to the Local Authorities to enable them to pay retirement benefits.
The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr Tembo): Mr Speaker, I wish to state that there are no specific grants released for the purpose of restructuring council establishments. However, a sum of K31,350,103 has been released as at 30th June, 2014, for the purpose of liquidating terminal benefits to retirees in local authorities.
Mr Speaker, as intimated above, a sum of K31,350,103 was released in respect of terminal benefits to former council workers. It is important to appreciate the magnitude of the debt burden in councils. As at 31st December, 2011, councils’ indebtedness rose to K671 million due to the failure by councils to liquidate their debt as a result of the decline in revenue capacity. Furthermore, the total retirees’ benefits as at 31st December, 2013, was K210 million out of which K31,350,103 was paid out by the Government to fifty-five councils this year.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Mucheleka: Mr Speaker, I would like the hon. Minister to indicate what steps are being taken to ensure that the balance …
Mr Matafwali: On a point of order, Sir.
Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.
Mr Matafwali: Mr Speaker, the Zambian people are anxious to know the results of the forensic audit in the operations of Konkola Copper Mine (KCM). Now that the report is said to be out, is our able hon. Minister of Mines, Energy and Water Development in order to remain quiet on the findings of the audit which was undertaken?
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Speaker: Order!
My ruling is that the hon. Member should quickly file an urgent Question, and I will pass it on to the hon. Minister. We will process it as quickly as possible.
May the hon. Member for Lubansenshi, please, continue.
Mr Mucheleka: Mr Speaker, our retirees in the local authorities, including Luwingu District where I come from, have really suffered due to the non-payment of their terminal benefits. In his response, the hon. Minister indicated that, so far, K31 million has been released, leaving a balance of about K180 million. How soon will this K180 million balance be paid to the local authorities so that our people who have continued to wallow in abject poverty, can be paid their money? Can the hon. Minister indicate how soon this balance will be released so that the people are paid what is due to them?
Mr Tembo: Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Member of Parliament for Lubansenshi for that important question. I must state that members of staff in local authorities are in categories. They are in Division I, II and III, and are paid through the Lusaka Authority Superannuation Fund (LASF), but those who belong to Division IV, are usually paid by the local authorities. So, because there are no payments which are being remitted to LASF, we have decided to get money from the Ministry of Finance so that payments are made promptly. At the moment, we are still facing challenges because the councils are not remitting to LASF. However, I can assure the hon. Member of Parliament that this will be resolved as soon as possible as we are in talking terms with the Ministry of Finance.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Speaker: Order!
On a light note, you should always be in talking terms.
Laughter
Dr Musokotwane (Liuwa): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has just indicated that the councils are failing to pay debts owing to former employees. At the same time, the Government, last year, announced that henceforth, councillors would be paid a monthly allowance of K700 per month, which it is also not paying. I would like to find out why the Government has decided to add more liabilities to the councils that are already failing to pay even the existing liabilities. How do they find that prudent?
The Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr Chenda): Mr Speaker, the Government has not just left this responsibility to the councils. It has continued to provide financial assistance to the council by taking over the payroll for Division I, II and III officers in order to relieve the councils of the financial burden of having to deal with wages and salaries.
Sir, as for the councillors’ allowances, it is a known fact that in the region, a lot of neighbours also pay some amount to councillors and it is a good thing. If you look at the job that the councillors do on a daily basis on our behalf, as hon. Members of Parliament, it is quite enormous. Over the years, the demands on them have increased and it is only fair that they be given a token amount. In fact, the amount of work, demands and pressures that is put on councillors on a daily basis is huge. So, I think that we should continue to find additional sources of revenue to empower the councils so that they are able to deal with some of these responsibilities that have been bestowed on them.
I thank you, Sir.
Lt-Gen. Rev. Shikapwasha (Keembe): Mr Speaker, under what law is your Government paying the council Division I and II officers from the public coffers because the councils are supposed to raise their own revenue out of rates and so many other undertakings? Under what law have you allowed them to take public money?
Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Chenda: Mr Speaker, the Local Government Act has prescribed what type of grants the Government should give to councils. So, we are using the Local Government Act, and these grants are from the Ministry of Finance. It is within the law.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Muchima (Ikeleng’i): Mr Speaker, the answer by the hon. Minister is sympathetic with councils over some liabilities owing to employees and other areas. I would like to find out whether the hon. Minister is extending this sympathy to the staff in Division IV who have stayed for some time now without being paid salaries, and whose councils have been unable to raise this kind of money, especially in the remote areas where the revenue base is non-existent.
Mr Chenda: Mr Speaker, when we receive grants from the Ministry of Finance, we distribute them in accordance with the necessity and the need that exists in the local authorities. Clearly, those councils that have no revenue base are treated more favourably than those that have potential to raise income from their own resources. In this regard, I would say that the bulk of rural district councils continue to exist and to be supported by grants from the Central Government. This, we have been doing and will continue to do.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Livune (Katombola): Mr Speaker, how viable is the Local Authority Superannuation Fund (LASF)?
Mr Muchima: On a point of order, Sir.
Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.
Mr Muchima: Mr Speaker, my apology to my colleague.
Sir, in this Parliament, we believe in facts. Is the hon. Minister in order to mislead the House and the nation at large that the councils, especially the staff in Division IV have been receiving salaries through the grants and yet he knows that most council staff in Division IV have not been paid their salaries for some time now? I seek your serious ruling.
Mr Speaker: Order!
My ruling is that as the hon. Minister continues to respond, he should, please, clarify the position.
May the hon. Member for Katombola continue, please.
Mr Livune: Mr Speaker, I was asking the hon. Minister how viable LASF is. Is it true that the institution is technically bankrupt?
Mr Chenda: Mr Speaker, the report from the Local Authority Superannuation Fund (LASF) is not pleasing. It is a known fact that since 2002 or so, LASF has not been receiving new members. So, the income that it is dependent on comes from a diminishing membership. As most people retire, the membership continues to diminish and their source of living also continues to diminish.
Mr Speaker, in the past, there were more people joining than there were retiring. So, it was able to generate income from its own resources which it used to meet its financial commitments. However, as things stand, you have more people that have retired demanding for money to be paid from LASF, but there have been no new members joining since the inception of the National Pension Scheme Authority (NAPSA). This has created serious financial consequences and is the reason why it is not able to reach its obligations.
Sir, LASF is actually in arrears in the payment of annual annuities to the extent of close to K10 million. It is also in arrears of paying the lump sums that are due to the retirees. It is a matter of serious concern and we are working with our colleagues at Cabinet Office and the Ministry of Finance to see how best we can redress the situation so that the plight of the retirees in the local authorities can be attended to.
I thank you, Sir. {mospagebreak}
Mr Speaker: There was a point from the hon. Member for Ikeleng’i.
Mr Chenda: Mr Speaker, it has been our policy to persuade the larger local authorities to pay the Division IV officers from their own resources. However, we have seen that the rural councils are not able to meet this obligation because they do not have any revenue base to fall back on. We, as a ministry, are trying to come up with subventions to meet their obligations.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Konga (Chavuma): Mr Speaker, …
Mr Livune: On a point of order, Sir.
Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.
Mr Livune: Mr Speaker, I apologise to the hon. Member who is on the Floor.
Sir, I asked the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing to state whether the Local Authority Superannuation Fund (LASF) is bankrupt or not, but he has not done so. Is he in order not to tell us whether the institution is bankrupt or not?
Mr Speaker: My ruling is that the hon. Minister indicated that it is in dire straits.
Mr Lubinda: He does not understand dire straits.
Laughter
Mr Konga: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister indicated in his response that the Central Government, through the Ministry of Local Government and Housing, is helping the councils. At the same time, the Government has abolished the levies which the councils depend on. Why is it that the Government cannot reinstate these levies …
Mr Kambwili: On a point of order, Sir.
Mr Konga: … so that the councils can be self-sustaining once more?
Mr Kambwili: On a point of order, Sir.
Hon. Opposition Member: On who?
Mr Chenda: Mr Speaker, there is a lot of goodwill from the Ministry of Finance to deal with issues pertaining to the underfunding of local authorities. My plea is that we should be patient. We have engaged the Ministry of Finance and the Central Treasury and are hopeful that we will come up with measures that will bring about equitable distribution of the funds that are raised by the Central Treasury.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Mtolo (Chipata Central): Mr Speaker, the Patriotic Front (PF) Manifesto is based on devolution of power, fiscal decentralisation …
Lt-Gen. Rev. Shikapwasha: On a point of order, Sir.
Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.
Lt-Gen. Rev. Shikapwasha: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister for Katombola asked …
Hon. Opposition Member: Hon. Minister?
Lt-Gen. Rev. Shikapwasha: … hon. Member …
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Lt-Gen. Rev. Shikapwasha: … asked whether the Local Authority Superannuation Fund (LASF) was bankrupt or not and the word that was used in the reply was ‘dire straits’. However, dire straits does not mean bankruptcy; it means being severely stressed. Therefore, the question has not been answered.
Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!
Lt-Gen. Rev. Shikapwasha: Is it bankrupt or not?
Mr Speaker: Those words were not used by the hon. Minister. They were used by me. I thought that would ease the interpretation, but it looks like we are still confounded with this issue. In order to put it to rest, I will invite the hon. Minister, when answering the last question by the hon. Member for Chipata Central, to approach it from the desired technical point of view, for the sake of avoidance of doubt.
Mr Mtolo: Mr Speaker, I was reminding the hon. Minister that the PF Manifesto is hinged on the devolution of power to local authorities.
Sir, the question which Hon. Mucheleka asked is probably the most important question for the ministry because we, as hon. Members of Parliament, are aware that our councils are insolvent and in debt. How will the ministry carry on with the PF Manifesto if it does not set a fund aside to restructure the councils and make them more viable, given the fact that there is no money set aside for restructuring? Is the hon. Minister aware of the situation pertaining our there?
Mr Chenda: Mr Speaker, I am fully aware of the situation that is obtaining in the councils. I mentioned that there is a lot of goodwill that has been shown by our colleagues at the Ministry of Finance to ensure that the programme of decentralisation takes off. I would like to request the House to be patient and to see what comes out of the discussions we are having with the Ministry of Finance.
Sir, we promised that we are going to start the process of decentralisation and it is public knowledge that Cabinet approved the Revised Decentralisation Policy last year in June and it was launched by the President. We are on course.
Mr Speaker, let me reiterate the fact that, firstly, LASF is not receiving new members, but experiencing more retirees than it has ever experienced before. This means that the financial demand on LSAF is much higher. Worse still, the local authorities, who are the major subscribers to LASF, are perpetually in court and are not able to remit the contributions to LASF. Given this scenario, you cannot expect the institution to be financially buoyant.
Sir, the most competent people to comment on whether the fund is bankrupt are the actuaries and I mentioned that the report from the actuaries was not favourable.
I thank you, Sir.
DISTRIBUTION OF DESKS AND CHAIRS
590. Mr Ng’onga asked the Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education:
(a) when school desks and chairs were last distributed to schools in Kaputa District;
(b) how many desks and chairs were supplied;
(c) which schools benefitted from the supply; and
(d) when the next consignment of desks and chairs would be sent to the district.
Mr Mabumba: Mr Speaker, desks were last distributed to schools in Kaputa in March, 2012. A total of 2,325 double-seater desks were supplied to the district. A total of thirty-six primary schools benefitted from the distribution of desks and these are:
Number Names of Schools
1 Chibote Primary School
2 Chinchenbele Primary School
3 Chimpatika Primary School
4 Chingoyo Primary School
5 Chipili Primary School,
6 Chisobo Primary School
7 Chocha Primary School
8 Choma Mutima Primary School
9 Filamaka Primary School
10 Ilembwe Primary School
11 Kabwe Primary School
12 Kafuma Primary School
13 Kafwimbi Primary School
14 Kakomo Primary School
15 Kalaba Primary School
16 Kaputa Secondary School
17 Kaleulu Primary School
18 Kapepula Primary School
19 Kapisha, Primary School
20 Kaputa Skills
21 Kasepa Primary School
22 Kashitu Primary School
23 Kasongole Primary School
24 Kasungwe Primary School
25 Katai Primary School
26 Katwatwa Primary School
27 Kaungu Primary School
28 Luntomfwe Primary School
29 Mantapala Primary School
30 Matobwe Primary School
31 Muchenja Primary School
32 Mukonkoto Primary School
33 Mukitandula Primary School
34 Mweru Wantipa Primary School
35 Wambushi Primary School
36 Nkosha Primary School
Mr Speaker, the next consignment of desks and chairs will be sent to the district upon the availability of funds.
I thank you, Sir.
Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, I am very happy for Hon. Ng’onga on the distribution of more than 2,000 double-seater desks to thirty-six schools in his district. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister when, at least, even half …
Dr Kaingu: Or a quarter.
Dr Musokotwane: … of that number will be taken to Liuwa because we have not received any desks since 2011.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mabumba: Mr Speaker, we will make an assessment in Liuwa and obviously, revert to Hon. Dr Musokotwane.
I thank you, Mr Speaker.
Lt-Gen. Rev. Shikapwasha: Mr Speaker, the competence of the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) was very high in this matter …
Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!
Lt-Gen. Rev. Shikapwasha: … because they would issue out a booklet showing which schools countrywide would receive desks. I would like to find out whether the hon. Minister can follow the competence of the MMD and produce a similar booklet.
Mr Mabumba: Mr Speaker, that has been done. In fact, when you look at the infrastructure plans that have been previously submitted, you will find that information, and we will continue giving out that information to the hon. Members.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Muchima: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether he stills wants to be reminded by the hon. Members of Parliament about the need for desks like the hon. Member of Parliament for Kaputa has done or if he is going to take stock of all the schools’ requirements so that he can plan for the distribution of desks to all the schools, including Mwinilunga Trade School where there is no furniture at all?
Mr Mabumba: Mr Speaker, as we distribute the infrastructure plans, we will make sure that, that information is in the booklet.
I thank you, Mr Speaker.
Mr Ntundu (Gwembe): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister stated that he distributed the infrastructure plan which had information with regard to the distribution of desks. I would like to find out if he distributed that information to the hon. Government Members or to all hon. Members of Parliament?
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mabumba: Mr Speaker, let me repeat what I said. I said that in order to provide adequate information to hon. Members of Parliament, we will provide that information. In fact, many a times, Mr Speaker, you have guided us to provide this information to the hon. Members of Parliament in order to avoid such questions.
I thank you, Sir.
AUTOMATED RTSA OPERATIONS
591. Mr Katuka (Mwinilunga) asked the Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication:
(a) what proportion of the Road Transport and Safety Agency (RTSA) operations had been automated as of December, 2013;
(b) how many centres and provinces had been interconnected as of December, 2013; and
(c) when the exercise would be extended to the district level.
The Deputy Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication (Col. Kaunda): Mr Speaker, the Road Transport and Safety Agency (RTSA) has automated:
(a) Driver licensing;
(b) Registration of motor vehicles …
Interruptions
Mr Speaker: Order, on the left!
Col. Kaunda: … and trailers;
(c) Road tax (vehicle licensing);
(d) Test certification;
(e) Road worthiness certification;
(f) Transit permit and toll fees management; and
(g) International driver’s permit payment system.
The agency is yet to automate the following operations:
(a) Road service licensing;
(b) Instructors and driving schools licensing; and
(c) Motor dealer’s vehicle licensing.
Sir, the above implies that the agency has automated 70 per cent of its operations. It is worth noting that the rest of the operations will, within next year, be automated once the current system has been upgraded.
Mr Speaker, the number of centres interconnected is thirty-two and these are spread across the ten provinces of the Republic.
Sir, the Government plans to have the Zambia Transport Information System (ZAMTIS) available in all the districts within the next three years. The extension to all districts will be done simultaneously with the upgrading of the current system. Currently, the system is available only in twenty-four districts.
Mr Speaker, I thank you.
Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, according to the hon. Minister’s response, all is well in the centres that are operating countrywide. I would like to find out from him why the system that is obtaining at Mimosa is causing a lot of problems for the public when getting these licences from the Road Transport and Safety Agency (RTSA)?
Col. Kaunda: Mr Speaker, the issue of the system at Mimosa is different from what we are talking about. This question is about ZAMTIS and Mimosa is about vehicle inspection.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Matafwali (Bangweulu): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from …
Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Sir.
Mr Speaker: A point is order is raised.
Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, the question I posed to the hon. Minister relates to issues of vehicle testing at Mimosa. Is he in order to mislead this House that the system at Mimosa is different from the issue I raised when in his answer he talked about vehicle testing?
Mr Speaker: The hon. Member for Bangweulu will pose a question to which the hon. Minister will respond. Hon. Minister, as you respond, please, add more flesh to your response, following the point of order raised by the hon. Member for Monze Central.
The hon. Member for Bangweulu may proceed.
Mr Matafwali: Mr Speaker, to what extent is the Department of the Road Transport and Safety Agency (RTSA) embracing Information and Communication Technologies (ICTs) in reducing the carnage on the roads in Zambia?
Col. Kaunda: Mr Speaker, we are in the process of trying to put various systems in place. For example, our officers will be able to identify various offenders on the roads at a touch of a button unlike referring to call centres.
As for the hon. Member for Monze Central, the system at Mimosa is for vehicle examination. The hon. Minister was very clear in his statement to the country that we are unhappy with the way the system is operating at the moment. We have since put in place various measures and trained extra people. In a few days, the hon. Minister will come to Parliament and explain the way forward of the system.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Speaker, could the hon. Minister kindly educate this House and the nation at large what he means when he says that test certification has been automated. What is this test certification all about, if it is not vehicle fitness test?
Col. Kaunda: Mr Speaker, it is the same thing.
I thank you, Sir.
Laughter
Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Mr Speaker, has the ministry got any plans to decentralise vehicle fitness testing to councils so that they make some money as well?
Col. Kaunda: Mr Speaker, the answer is very simple. We have no plans to devolve powers to councils as they will only abuse it.
I thank you, Sir.
Laughter
Mr Muchima: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that people are being subjected to a lot of suffering at Mimosa, where the system goes on and off over and over? People spend hours of production time queued up at that place.
Mr Mwale: Days!
Mr Muchima: I am told people spend even days there.
Do you have any intention of creating another centre elsewhere and putting up a more efficient system?
Col. Kaunda: Mr Speaker, we are aware that hon. Members of Parliament and their constituents suffer to get services at Mimosa but, as a very caring ministry, …
Mr Livune: Question!
Col. Kaunda: …we will put measures in place so that in the very near future and, as they have their vehicles tested at Mimosa, they will be smiling and singing.
I thank you, Sir.
TARRING OF ROADS
593. Mr Hamusonde (Nangoma) asked the Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication:
(a) when the tarring of the Mumbwa/Landless Corner Road would be completed; and
(b) when the following roads would be tarred:
(i) Mungwi Road which joins Mumbwa Road at Mwembeshi Satellite; and
(ii) Mumbwa/Blue Lagoon Road.
The Deputy Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication (Mr Mwimba H. Malama): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the House that the upgrading to bituminous standard of the Mumbwa/Landless Corner Road Lot 1 is scheduled for completion on 28th November, 2014.
Sir, the Government, through the Road Development Agency (RDA), has allocated funds in the 2014 National Budget for consulting services for the detailed engineering designs including tender documents and preparation for the upgrading to bituminous standard of the 27 km of the Mungwi Road which joins Mumbwa at Mwembeshi Satellite. The tender for this design closed on 6th June, 2014, and the evaluation process is underway. The actual construction works are scheduled to commence in the third quarter of 2015, after the completion of the designs and engagement of the contractor.
Mr Speaker, the Government, through the Ministry of Local Government and Housing, is currently carrying out periodic maintenance on 80 km of the Mumbwa/Blue Lagoon Road. The scope of works includes road formation, grading, gravelling and drainage system. However, tarring of the Mumbwa/Blue Lagoon Road will only commence in 2016 upon the completion of feasibility studies and detailed engineering designs which are expected to commence in 2015.
Mr Speaker, I thank you.
Mr Hamusonde: Mr Speaker, who is the contractor on Mumbwa/Landless Corner Road?
Mr Mwimba H. Malama: Mr Speaker, the contractor is Jizan Construction.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Milambo (Mwembeshi): Mr Speaker, works on the Mumbwa/Landless Corner Road have been poorly done. May I know the lifespan of this road as agreed in the contract?
Mr Mwimba H. Malama: Mr Speaker, the works are still ongoing. It is difficult for me to state the lifespan of a road which is under construction. However, I can state an approximate lifespan of over ten years.
I thank you, Sir.
Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister said that there are plans to tar Mungwi Road up to a point where it joins the Mumbwa/Lusaka Road.
In the meantime, there is already a portion of about 14 or 15 km of Mungwi Road that is tarred. This part of the road, however, is now in a despicable condition and deteriorating by the minute. Will repairing this road wait until 2015, by which time it will have turned into canals and trenches?
Mr Mwimba H. Malama: Mr Speaker, we have continued maintaining these roads. The bad spot is very good information for us, Hon. Dr Musokotwane. We will make a follow up because this is why we are here.
Mr Speaker, I thank you.
REHABILITATION OF MUZOKA/CHISEKESI RING ROAD
594. Mrs Mazoka (Pemba) asked the Minister of Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication:
(a) whether the Government had any plans to rehabilitate the Muzoka/Chisekesi Ring Road in Pemba District and, if so, when the plans would be implemented; and
(b) if there were no such plans, why.
Col. Kaunda: Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the House that the works on the Muzoka-Chisekesi Ring Road were included in the Rural Roads Unit (RRU) Programme for 2014. Currently, the RRU is mobilising resources to commence the works in the first week of August, 2014.
I thank you, Mr Speaker.
Mr Livune: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that the Chsekesi Ring Road in Pemba District is near Malasanyo Road which has been neglected for a long time?
Mr Speaker: Order! The road in question is near what?
Laughter
Mr Livune: Malasanyo Road, Mr Speaker.
Laughter
The Minister of Transport, Works and Supply and Communication (Mr Mukanga): Mr Speaker, this is not the first time we are discussing this road. The road in question is near the road which the hon. Member has referred to. It is for this reason that, as a ministry, we have decided to come back and inform the House that works will commence in the first week of August, 2014.
I thank you, Mr Speaker.
CONSTRUCTION OF UNIVERSITY IN LUAPULA
595. Mr Mwila (Chipili) asked the Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education:
(a) when the construction of a university in Luapula Province would commence;
(b) what the name of the contractor of the project was;
(c) what the estimated cost of the project was;
(d) what the estimated cost of the project was; and
(e) what the student enrolment at the institution would be.
The Deputy Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education (Prof. Willombe): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the House that this is a design and build project. Therefore, the ministry has already advertised for tenders. The tender process is underway and the tenders were opened on the 25th April, 2014. The House may wish to know that the contractor has not yet been appointed.
Sir, the ministry’s Procurement Committee approved the award of the contract on 24th June, 2014. The documents are currently with the Ministry of Justice and the ministry is pushing for them to be processed. The time frame will only be known after the documents have been received from the Ministry of Justice. When the university is done, it will progressively enroll up to 3,500 students.
I thank you, Mr Speaker.
Mr Mwila: Mr Speaker, it is now two years since the President made that pronouncement. Could the hon. Minister give a position when the contractor is expected to be on site because we are anxiously waiting.
Prof. Willombe: Sir, once the documents have been received from the Ministry of Justice, a contractor will be appointed. Therefore, until then, we cannot give an estimated time frame.
I thank you, Mr Speaker.
Prof. Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Mr Speaker, if my memory serves me right, the directive from His Excellency the President was that these universities must be constructed within eighteen months. Could we know why the ministry is failing to meet the directive of the President?
The Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education (Dr Phiri): Mr Speaker, the language being used is not the right language because we are on course. We wanted to change the way we deal with these universities, hence bringing in the design and build, which takes a bit longer than eighteen months.
Mr Speaker: Order!
Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 6130 hours.
[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the Chair]
LOSS OF CATTLE IN CHIEF MUSOKOTWANE’S CHIEFDOM
598. Mr Livune asked the Minister of Agriculture and Livestock:
(a) what disease had caused the death of twenty-eight head of cattle on 13th October, 2013 in Muchinje Village in Chief Musokotwane’s Chiefdom in Kazungula District; and
(b) what measures the Government had taken to help farmers not incur further loss of cattle.
The Vice-President (Dr Scott): I wish to inform the House that the disease that was reported to have caused the death of cattle in Muchinje Village in Chief Musokotwane’s Chiefdom in Kazungula District was Frothy Bloat, which is caused by the accumulation of gases in the stomach, usually due to the over consumption of lush grass and the taking in of large quantities of water thereafter. The disease was reported to the Department of Veterinary Services in Livingstone on 13th December, 2013 and not 13th October, 2013. In fact, this fits in better with the rainy season when there is the growth of lush grass that caused the problem.
Mr Speaker, it was determined that in Muchinje Village in Chief Musokotwane’s area, thirty-six head of cattle out of fifty-six were affected and in Inonge Village, the disease affected 3 head of cattle out of twenty-three in the village. Therefore, out of the thirty-nine head of cattle affected in the Chiefdom, thirty died and nine recovered. The affected cattle that were found alive were treated by inducing the release of gases from the stomach.
Mr Speaker, as to part (b) of the question, I wish to inform the House that to avoid the recurrence of the disease, farmers were advised to gradually introduce feeding of cattle to lush grass, especially at the beginning of the rainy season.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Livune: Mr Speaker, considering that when this happened, it took everyone by surprise and most of the cattle owned by the poor people was decimated, what is this Government doing to alleviate the suffering of these people, who have now been left with nothing? The people of Muchinje Village are so desperate.
The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the first thing that will be done is that the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU) will intervene to make sure that the people do not starve. It is a disaster management issue in the short term. In the longer term, it is notoriously difficult to manage cattle at that cusp when at the end of the dry season, there is virtually no green grass, and it is very high cellular content that they are eating in very small quantities. Suddenly, the rain comes and lush grass comes up and the chemistry is completely different. The nutrients are abundant and the stomach needs time to adjust from eating the one type of fodder to the other type. As it says in the answer, the issue is to introduce and teach people better management practices to make it a gradual transition. It is the most notorious time of the year.
I thank you, Sir.
Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, I would like to know why the Government ruled out any other disease or cause of death, considering the fact that at that time of the year, it is not just the cattle in Chief Musokotwane’s area that had access to fresh green grass, but cattle from all over the country. However, in this particular instance, it is only cattle from that village that were reported to have been killed. So, how did the Government rule out any other possibility considering the fact that no other cattle were affected?
The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I feel sorry for the questioner that he has to ask for the answer from His Honour the Vice-President, who has not bound up on this particular issue in any detail. I would speculate that they did the diagnosis correctly and it is quite a distinctive disease. It bloats and makes the stomach swell tremendously and you can recover some of the cattle by putting knives in the stomach and so forth, and getting the gas released, which is what you do to sheep and other animals as well. On why it should be particularly worse in one place than another, it should be due to local factors.
Mr Speaker, I thank you.
Mr Miyanda: Mr Speaker, twenty-eight animals dying in a day is quite a loss. Is the Government not considering putting these farmers under the restocking programme?
The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I am sure they are being considered for that. In fact, that is where they are, at the moment.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Muchima: Mr Speaker, this problem of animal diseases in Zambia has been with us for some time. In neighbouring countries like Botswana, that is not the case. Is the Government not seriously thinking of going to study the measures that our friends have put in place so that the same can be implemented in Zambia?
The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I believe there have been one or more visits to Botswana to see their very draconian system with very well-controlled movements and so forth, which we have looked at. As far as I am aware, we are picking up on these things. We do not necessarily have to go and look at our neighbouring countries. A lot of it is textbook issues that have broken down with the growth of population and the reduction in the number of extension officers and so forth.
I thank you, Sir.
DAMS IN NANGOMA PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCY
599. Mr Hamusonde asked the Minister of Mines, Energy and Water Development when the construction of dams in Nangoma Parliamentary Constituency would commence.
The Deputy Minister of Mines, Energy and Water Development (Mr Zulu): Mr Speaker, the construction of dams in Nangoma Parliamentary Constituency is expected to commence in 2016. The Government will consider providing funds to carry out feasibility studies in the 2015 National Budget. The ministry, through the Department of Water Affairs, will then inspect and ascertain the feasibility and viability of some areas in the constituency, which have potential for dams to be constructed.
Mr Speaker, I thank you.
Mr Hamusonde: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that the whole Nangoma Constituency, which has about 70,000 cattle, only has one dam?
Mr Zulu: Mr Speaker, we are aware, and that is why we are going to carry out the feasibility studies next year. These things go with the Budget and so, we cannot just wake up and start conducting feasibility studies. The feasibility studies have to be included in the Budget. After the study, that is when we will start constructing the dams, and that will be in 2016.
Sir, it would also be important for Hon. Hamusonde and his communities to partner with us by giving us information about potential sites for the construction of dams. This information will make work easy for our technocrats.
I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}
Mr Hamududu (Bweengwa): Mr Speaker, these dams are not even expensive to put up. Surely a feasibility study for a dam does not take that long. So, when will the Ministry of Mines, Energy and Water Development come up with a comprehensive dam construction programme that will include rehabilitating some of the dams in Nangoma that have silted up? That is the issue and it is important for livestock development in our rural areas.
Mr Zulu: Mr Speaker, the ministry is currently working on a plan which will soon be distributed to all hon. Members of Parliament. The World Bank has already given us money for that and the feasibility studies will be conducted across the country.
Mr Speaker, I thank you.
Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwezi): Mr Speaker, if the World Bank has given money to this Government for feasibility studies, what then does the Government want to budget for in 2015?
Mr Zulu: Mr Speaker, the money from the World Bank is for the construction of dams. However the ministry has to provide money for feasibility studies.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Speaker, seeing that the planning and receipt of money from the World Bank is happening synonymously, could the hon. Minister confirm that since the ministry did not had money from the World Bank, it has not been planning?
Mr Zulu: Mr Speaker, I cannot confirm.
I thank you, Sir.
Lt-Gen. Rev. Shikapwasha: Mr Speaker, could the hon. Minister tell us if the World Bank gave money to Zambia without a plan and on what it was based.
Mr Zulu: Mr Speaker, I think it was last month when we launched this programme. There is money from the World Bank and the ministry will also be given an allocation in the National Budget for the same programme. The money from the World Bank will be used to construct dams while the allocation from the Government will be used to carry out feasibility studies by the ministry.
Thank you, Mr Speaker.
Mr Mbewe: Sir, …
Lt-Gen. Rev. Shikapwasha: On a point of order, Sir.
The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.
Lt-Gen. Rev. Shikapwasha: Mr Speaker, I asked the hon. Minister whether the World Bank gave the ministry money without a plan or there was a plan from Zambia. He has not answered my question. Is he in order, Sir?
The Deputy Chairperson: The hon. Minister should take that on board when he answers the next hon. Member’s question.
Mr Mbewe: Sir, in every constituency, people have needed dams since last year. Can the hon. Minister be very clear on when he will give us the infrastructure programme for the dams in our respective constituencies other than just saying soon. How soon is soon?
The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Minister of Mines, Energy and Water Development, as you answer that question, remember the point of order that was raised by the hon. Member for Keembe.
Mr Zulu: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member is asking how soon is soon. Well, the programme has been there since last year, but it was not funded. It is our responsibility, as a ministry, to carry out feasibility studies, but there are so many projects. For example, the African Development Bank (ADB) has given us money for feasibility studies. On the other hand, the World Bank has also given us money for other projects. The ministry is also required to contribute. So, this is what we are doing and the plan will come out very soon. We have already asked our technocrats to come up with a plan which we will give all hon. Members of Parliament. This is what I am saying.
Mr Speaker, I thank you.
The Deputy Chairperson: You have not addressed the point of order that was raised by the hon. Member for Keembe.
Mr Zulu: Mr Speaker, my initial response was meant to only answer the question by the hon. Member for Nangoma Constituency, Hon. Hamusonde, but the plan is there for all the constituencies. Our technocrats from the provincial centres will go to all the constituencies to look at sites where we can construct dams. Like I said earlier, we have asked our technocrats to come up with a plan which we will distribute to all hon. Members of Parliament.
Thank you, Mr Speaker.
Mr Muchima: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has said that the ministry is going to cater for all constituencies in terms of dam construction. However, in the North-Western Province, I do not think we need any dams because we have got too much water. Is there going to be a deliberate plan to give us boreholes without our using our Constituency Development Fund (CDF) so that the people in the area can also benefit from this programme funded by the World Bank?
Mr Zulu: Mr Speaker, if the North-Western Province does not need dams, we will not construct them there, but our technocrats will still visit all the constituencies. I repeat, if there are places where dams are not needed, we will not construct dams there.
I thank you, Mr Speaker.
Mr Mucheleka: Mr Speaker, I would like the hon. Minister to clarify the answer he has just given now that dams will be constructed in almost every constituency. I think last week, there was a question from the hon. Member for Kafulafuta, who asked about dam construct in his area. The hon. Minister indicated that there was no plan for the ministry to construct a dam in Kafulafuta. The hon. Minister is now indicating to us that there are plans to construct dams everywhere. Can he reconcile the statement he is making now and the one he made about a week ago.
Mr Zulu: Mr Speaker, I think on Kafulafuta, we were talking about boreholes.
I thank you, Sir.
Laughter
Mr L. J. Ngoma (Sinda): Mr Speaker, the issue of dams, just as indicated by the hon. Member of Parliament for Chadiza, is very critical because we need them urgently. The hon. Minister is indicating that very soon, there will be information given to hon. Members of Parliament regarding this matter. However, very soon, hon. Members of Parliament will be out of Lusaka as the Hoouse will be on recess. Could he be very specific how soon that will be done. Is it next week, month or when?
Mr Zulu: Mr Speaker, at the ministry, we work throughout. We do not wait for hon. Members of Parliament to be here. So, when hon. Members of Parliament come back in September, we will give them the required information.
Mr Mwaliteta: They will find it.
Mr Zulu: Mr Speaker, what we want, as a ministry, is to ensure that we construct these dams across the country. That is our vision, goal and target. So, we have got a plan and money is there from the World Bank. We also hope to be given enough money through the Budget. So, hon. Members should not worry. What we want is to make sure that safe drinking water is made available across the country. So, it is our responsibility to ensure that dams are provided.
Thank you, Mr Speaker.
FM RADIO AND TELEVISION TRANSMITTERS
600. Mr Livune asked the Minister of Information and Broadcasting when the Government would install FM radio and television transmitters in Kazungula District.
The Deputy Minister of Information and Broadcasting (Mr Njeulu): Mr Speaker, the Ministry of Information and Broadcasting is in the process of installing frequency modulation (FM) transmitters throughout the country in phases. In 2014, twenty FM transmitters will be installed before the end of the year. However, Kazungula District is in phase II, and the FM radio transmitter will be installed in the district in 2015.
I thank you, Sir.
Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Livune: Mr Speaker, …
Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Sir.
The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.
Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, in answering questions on the Floor from hon. Members of Parliament pertaining to the construction of dams in various constituencies, the issue of Kafulafuta was raised. In his answer, the hon. Minister indicated and informed the nation that there was never a question relating to the construction of dams in Kafulafuta and that the question related to construction of boreholes.
Mr Speaker, in my meticulous way of finding information, I would like to refer you to Question No. 517 by the hon. Member for Kafulafuta, Mr Chitafu, where he asked the hon. Minister of Mines, Energy and Water Development when the Government would construct dams in Kafulafuta Parliamentary Constituency.
Mr Speaker, arising from your own Order Paper, is the hon. Minister in order …
Mr Sing’ombe: He has run away.
Mr Mwiimbu: I know that someone is about to say it is not contemporaneous, but because of the circumstances that obtained on the Floor of the House, is the hon. Minister in order to mislead this House and the nation that there was never any question relating to the construction of dams in Kafulafuta when, in actual fact, your Order Paper, Mr Speaker, is very specific on this issue. Is he in order, Sir?
The Deputy Chairperson: The serious ruling is that the hon. Member for Kafulafuta asked Question 517 which reads as follows, “… to ask the Minister of Mines, Energy and Water Development when the Government will construct dams in Kafulafuta Parliamentary Constituency …” and this was on Friday 27th June, 2014, to that extent, therefore, the hon. Minister was out of order.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mucheleka: Punish him.
Mr Livune: Mr Speaker, …
Dr Kaingu: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.
The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.
Dr Kaingu: Mr Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity to raise a point of order. What we want in this House is cogency information and …
Mr Mushanga: What!
Dr Kaingu: I am not here to teach you English.
Laughter
Dr Kaingu: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister of Mines, Energy and Water Development in order to come to this House and tell us that the World Bank has given us money without telling us how much the World Bank has given us and whether that money is a grant or a loan? If it is a loan when shall we start paying interest on that loan? Is he in order to just give us information that he cannot buttress?
Mr Speaker, I need your serious ruling.
The Deputy Chairperson: The serious ruling is that the hon. Minister was definitely in order in the way he handled that question. However, if you are interested in getting that information, you may raise a question for an urgent answer.
Mr Livune: Mr Speaker, as I am talking to you now, the people of Chief Nyawa, Chief Musokotwane, Chief Sekute, Chief Moomba and Chief Mukuni cannot get this debate that is on the Floor and are deprived of serious national information.
Mr Speaker, when exactly in 2015 will the FM transmitters be installed in Kazungula to enable my good listeners like Charles Simwete in Sikasipa to listen to this important national broadcast?
The Minister of Information and Broadcasting (Dr Katema): Mr Speaker, in September, we will come to this House to present the Budget. I would urge the hon. Member of Parliament to support it so that we can use this money to quickly install the transmitter in Kazungula. As soon as the Budget is passed here, we can construct that transmitter.
I thank you, Mr Speaker.
Mr Mbulakulima (Chembe): Mr Speaker, in your cross-country answer, …
Laughter
Mr Mbulakulima: … you mentioned that the Government will install FM radio and television transmitters across the country, following that answer; may I find out from the hon. Deputy Minister when my district, Milenge, will benefit from that project.
Dr Katema: Mr Speaker, as you have guided before, we will come to this House and present the roadmap for the installation of these transmitters. That is when the hon. Member of Parliament will know in which phase his constituency is.
I thank you, Mr Speaker.
Ms Lubezhi (Namwala): Mr Speaker, in an event that the budget he is referring to is not approved, is he then telling us that they will never install those FM radio transmitters in Kazungula?
Dr Katema: Mr Speaker, if the hon. Member decides not to pass the Budget, I will have no alternative, but to go back to her constituency and tell the people that your Member of Parliament has not passed the budget so there will be no transmitter.
I thank you, Mr Speaker.
Laughter
Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, installation of transmitters is a very good project the Government wants to implement across the country. I want to find out whether these transmitters will go together with the Government giving coverage licences to the radio stations in Lusaka to cover the whole country so that whatever these radio stations transmit, the people in rural areas also get the message. Are you going to give them licences to transmit across the country?
Dr Katema: Mr Speaker, this Government, in its quest to liberalise the airwaves to improve on the freedom of press has put in place a board which regulates these radio and television stations. This is the Independent Broadcasting Authority (IBA). The onus is on these media houses to apply for a licence with the IBA.
I thank you, Mr Speaker.
Mr Muchima: Mr Speaker, arising from the answer the hon. Minister has given us that they are going to cover the whole country. My question is: Have you carried out a survey to determine which areas require these transmitters urgently and how much it will cost before we start talking about the budget. This answer came from you that you will do that. Have you done so? If so, how much will it cost before we start talking about the budget because in your budget, there will be too many things.
Dr Katema: Mr Speaker, the question is a very strange one.
Laughter
Dr Katema: It is difficult to follow.
Mr Speaker, the ministry carried out some surveys to see which areas are not receiving transmission and these are the places where we are putting these transmitters. As for which places urgently need the transmitters, it would be subjective to name some because all the Zambians need transmitters.
I thank you, Mr Speaker.
Mr Mucheleka: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister said that the Government has put up an Information and Broadcasting Authority (IBA). Can he, then, inform the House why the Government decided to revoke the licences that were given to QFM, Radio Phoenix and the Catholic Church?
The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Minister, you may give a bonus answer, if you have one.
Dr Katema: Mr Speaker, I do not have a bonus answer. However, I want to reiterate my earlier response that the onus is on all the radio stations that are currently operating and those that want to start operating to apply for licences with the IBA which has been put in place by the Government as the competent authority to gives licences.
I thank you, Sir.
_________
MOTION
REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE ON PARLIAMENTARY REFORMS AND MODERNISATION
Mr Katuka (Mwinilunga): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that this House do now adopt the Report of the Committee on Parliamentary Reforms and Modernisation for the Third Session of the Eleventh National Assembly laid on the Table of the House on 18th June, 2014.
The Deputy Chairperson: Is the Motion seconded?
Mr Bwalya (Lupososhi): Mr Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.
Mr Katuka: Mr Speaker, under its terms of reference, your Committee is charged with the responsibility of examining and proposing reforms to the powers, procedures and practices, organisation and facilities of the Assembly, provided that in proposing such reforms, the Committee shall bear in mind the balance of power between the respective constitutional responsibilities, roles of the National Assembly, the Government and duties of other house-keeping committees.
Mr Speaker, I am cognisant of the fact that all hon. Members of Parliament have already read your Committee’s report which was circulated to them. Therefore, in moving this Motion, I will only highlight some salient points covered in the report.
Sir, the Committee, among other things, considered two main issues as followed:
(i) sensitisation of the public on the existence and role of constituency offices and the functions of Members of Parliament;
(ii) the proposed new reforms to be undertaken by the National Assembly of Zambia.
In undertaking its work, the Committee received input from various stakeholders which included Government officials, political parties and civil society organisations.
Mr Speaker, your Committee also realised that there was a gap in addressing parliamentary reforms at the National Assembly of Zambia. Though they are key stakeholders, there is no clear mechanism provided for the hon. Members of Parliament to table their suggestions on the type of reforms they would like implemented. Under that premise, it was resolved that such a platform be created by requesting the Chairpersons of all Portfolio and General Purposes Committees to provide input with respect to the new reform agenda at the National Assembly. Submissions were, therefore, made to the Parliamentary Reforms and Modernisation Committee.
Sensitisation of the Public on the Existence and Role of Constituency Offices and the Functions of the Member of Parliament
Mr Speaker, interactions with various stakeholders demonstrated that very few people knew about the existence and role of the constituency offices. This is compounded by the notion that people do not seem to know the roles of the Member of Parliament. Many people are of the view that the role of the Member of Parliament is to assist people with personal needs and problems. There is a belief that Members of Parliament are there to build schools, roads, bridges, clinics, etc. Therefore, there is a need for the public to be sensitised on this matter to increase their understanding of the constituency offices and the role of the Member of Parliament.
In this regard, your Committee invited various witnesses to help the Committee identify effective means of increasing public awareness on this matter. Many witnesses submitted that people were not aware of the functions of the constituency offices and the roles of the Members of Parliament apart from the fact that constituency offices were once used as distribution centres for the Draft National Constitution. Consequently, your Committee is urging the National Assembly management, through the Hon. Mr Speaker, to publicise the roles and functions of the constituency offices and the hon. Members of Parliament through print and electronic media as well as through sensitisation programmes.
Further, the National Assembly should consider building the capacity of constituency staff in the use of interactive Information and Communication Technology (ICT) facilities such as facebook, twitter and others. This could be used as a means of raising awareness of the role of constituency offices and functions of the Members of Parliament. Funding should also be provided for constituency offices for outreach activities to be undertaken by the staff.
Mr Speaker, it is also observed that the general public is, to a large extent, not aware of the roles of the constituency office and the functions of the hon. Members of Parliament because of failure by some hon. Members of Parliament to regularly visit their constituency offices to explain their roles.
Some hon. Members of Parliament who visit their constituency offices meet only a few people, thereby restricting the dissemination of key information on the roles of the constituency office and the functions of the Member of Parliament.
In light of the foregoing, your Committee urges all hon. Members of Parliament to prepare schedules as they visit their constituencies and indicate their activities in the constituencies. The schedule should be displayed on the notice boards at constituency offices and distributed in the constituency by the staff at the office.
Mr Speaker, sensitisation on the roles of the constituency office and the functions of the Members should be extended to Government officers as it has shown that they also have little knowledge of the roles of the constituency office and the functions of the Member of Parliament. Further, people need to realise that Parliamentary staff and hon. Members of Parliament are also Government workers, but falling under the legislative arm of the Government. They complement the efforts of other Government workers in the Executive and the Judiciary. Therefore, the Government workers in these other arms of the Government should not shun working with hon. Members of Parliament and constituency office staff in the development of our country.
Submissions from Chairpersons of Parliamentary Committees
Mr Speaker, as I indicated earlier, your Committee received submissions from Chairpersons of all Portfolios and General Purposes Committees on the topical issue of new Parliamentary reforms. Allow me to highlight some of the key proposals submitted by the Chairpersons.
(i) The Committee of Chairpersons
Mr Speaker, your Committee is concerned that the Chairpersons of Committees have no fora to discuss matters related to Committee work. Your Committee is recommending that the Standing Orders be amended to create a Committee of Chairpersons which could be chaired by the Chairperson of Committees of the Whole House;
(ii) His Honour the Vice-President’s Question Time
Mr Speaker, hon. Members of Parliament value His Honour the Vice-President’s Question Time because this is a platform they use to freely engage the Government on current policy and developmental issues taking centre stage in the country. However, your Committee notes with concern that hon. Members of Parliament are only allowed to ask one question each during His Honour the Vice-President’s Question Time.
Your Committee resolved that in order to strengthen and improve on His Honour the Vice-President’s Question Time, hon. Members of Parliament should be allowed to ask more than one question. Further, your Committee recommends that the time provided for this be increased from 30 minutes to 1 hour and this entails amending the relevant Standing Orders.
(iii) Public Accounts Committee
Mr Speaker, your Committee observed with concern that among the member states of the Southern African Development Organisation of Public Accounts Committees (SADCOPAC), Zambia’s PAC is the only one still operating as a Sessional Committee which changes membership yearly. In other countries, public accounts committees are standing committees which function for a period of two to five years. To keep in line with other member countries, the Committee recommends that composition of the PAC should be maintained for a period of two-and-a-half years. This will strengthen the operations of the Committee.
(iv) Parliamentary Service Commission
Mr Speaker, your Committee wishes to report that it engaged various stakeholders on the establishment of the Parliamentary Service Commission. This matter has been on the drawing board for a long time. Your previous Committees had gone to Ghana and Uganda to understand the operations of the Parliamentary Service Commission. Observations and recommendations were made on its establishment. The Draft Constitution has incorporated this matter but, as you are aware, the Draft Constitution is still undergoing debate. Your Committee is of the view that we need to move forward on this matter. Therefore, your Committee proposes that this commission be established even before the enactment of the Constitution by amending the Constitution to provide for the commission and, thereafter, introduce a Bill for the establishment of the Parliamentary Service Commission.
(v) Programmes Supported by the Co-operating Partners
Mr Speaker, I wish to recognise the support we are receiving from our co-operating partners in implementing particular programmes. Currently, we are working closely with the United Nations Development Programme (UNDP), European Union (EU), Irish Aid and the German Government, through the development agency, Kreditanstalt fur Wiederaufbau (KFW). They are supporting projects such as the establishment of the Budget Office, construction of constituency offices and the development of educational toolkit on Parliament and constituency offices as well as training of constituency office staff.
Mr Speaker, in conclusion, allow me to thank all the witnesses who submitted memoranda and selected topics to your Committee and the members of the public who attended the public hearing sessions which were held in all the places your Committee toured.
Mr Speaker, my special tribute goes to all Chairpersons of the Parliamentary Committees who willingly and enthusiastically submitted memoranda and appeared before your Committee to make submissions for a new parliamentary reform agenda. Further, I would be failing in my duty if I did not recognise the invaluable work and services the Committee received from the Clerk of the National Assembly and her staff.
Finally, I wish to appeal to all hon. Members of Parliament to support your Committee’s report which is addressing issues aimed at improving the work of Parliament and making Parliament better than we found it.
Mr Speaker, I beg to move.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?
Mr Bwalya: Now, Sir.
Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me an opportunity to second the Motion. In seconding the Motion ably moved by the Chairperson of your Committee, allow me to make a few remarks.
Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the House that K2 million had been provided in the 2014 Budget for construction of constituency offices. With this amount, only three constituency offices could be constructed in 2014. Selection of constituencies where the offices would be constructed was based on the criteria set by Parliament in 2008 which is as follows:
(i) political party representation;
(ii) provincial parity;
(iii) urban-rural mix; and
(iv) gender of the hon. Member of Parliament.
Mr Speaker, with such a consideration, fifteen offices were selected to be part of the list for construction. However, due to inadequate funding, only three offices were prioritised for construction in 2014. The three offices are: Chama South, Namwala and Keembe, which are currently operating from premises that are not conducive for constituency work.
Mr Speaker, on reforms relating to the Standing Orders, parliamentary procedures and practices, it has been observed that the Committee on Local Government, Housing and Chiefs Affairs, in its current form, is overly focused on local government affairs to the exclusion of other equally important policy areas. In view of the foregoing, your Committee is recommending that in drawing lessons from other parliaments in the region, it will be important to amend the Standing Orders to provide for the Committee on Local Government Accounts and a separate Committee on Local Government, Housing and Chiefs Affairs, especially that the Public Accounts Committee (PAC) is equally overloaded. Further, it was observed that the Committee on Legal Affairs, Governance, Human Rights, Gender Matters and Child Affairs is overloaded with work and might not effectively carry out its mandate resulting in some areas such as child and gender affairs suffering.
Mr Speaker, in view of the foregoing, your Committee is recommending that the Committee on Legal Affairs, Governance, Human Rights, Gender Matters and Child Affairs be realigned by having some functions moved to other Committees. This, too, will entail amending the relevant Standing Orders.
Mr Speaker, allow me to add my voice on the aspect concerning the welfare of hon. Members of Parliament. It is common to see former hon. Members of Parliament roaming the streets and somewhat destitute as if they never held important national offices such as Member of Parliament.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Bwalya: Mr Speaker, it is high time this state of affairs was brought to an end by putting in place an appropriate safety net for hon. Members. Hon. Members of Parliament should be eligible for medical insurance and pension schemes. In addition, your Committee observed that whenever a lawyer or a Judge passed on, a valedictory service is held. In Uganda, whenever an hon. Member of Parliament dies, the remains of that hon. Member are brought to Parliament buildings for body viewing and, later, they are brought in the House, with a Motion for debate in honour of him or her. In line with that, your Committee is recommending that such a service be held for hon. Members of Parliament in the Chamber when an hon. Member passes on.
Further, your Committee observes that although the Office of the Hon. Mr Speaker is open to hon. Members of Parliament, it is of the view that there is a need to deliberately create a day when hon. Members of Parliament can freely interact and discuss with the Hon. Mr Speaker on any matter pertaining to their welfare and that of the institution.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Bwalya: Mr Speaker, it has been observed that our Parliament is heavily dependent on using paper for communication even in this era where there is much use of Information and Communication Technology (ICT). In some parliaments in the region, hon. Members of Parliament are allowed to enter the Chamber with laptops, tablets and smart phones to assist them in their debates.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Bwalya: However, this is not the practice in the Zambian Parliament. Your Committee is, therefore, recommending to the House to strive to make the Zambian Parliament use less paper by using the modern ICT.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Bwalya: Mr Speaker, it will be appreciated if hon. Members are supplied with tablets or laptops or other gadgets to be used in the Chamber as they discharge their duties.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Bwalya: Sir, arising from the public hearing sessions, your Committee observed with concern that from 1964 to 1992, the Legislature was not represented among Government structures in provinces and, late alone, in the districts. In light of this, your Committee recommends that the Government should adequately fund the constituency offices to make them visible and operate effectively and efficiently as an extension of the Legislature in provinces, districts and constituencies.
Mr Speaker, there is also a concern that was raised by the various witnesses that appeared before your Committee that whereas the procession as the Hon. Mr Speaker enters the Chamber looks colourful and very good, hon. Members were wondering what the Hon. Mr Speaker bows down to twice, as he enters, and he does it very religiously.
Interruptions
Hon. Government Back Benchers: Spirits!
Mr Bwalya: Mr Speaker, it is okay for the Hon. Mr Speaker to move all the way up to the Chair and bow on both the right and left because that is the way of recognising his hon. Members. However, bowing down as he enters is something that does not seem to be very clear as to what he bows down to.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Interruptions
Mr Bwalya: Mr Speaker, it is the considered view of your Committee that, that particular procession may be revisited to see how best we can deal with it.
Sir, with these few words, I thank you.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
Hon. Members, I wish to remind you as you debate Parliamentary Reforms, to, please, note that even hon. Members of the Executive are on the Committee. This means that all of you are committed to these reforms. Therefore, we all have to work together as a team to make things happen.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate on the Motion on the Floor. Let me also thank the mover and the seconder of this very important report. As you have said, this report ought not to be controversial and it is one of the reports where we are permitted to deal with our farewell. As such, I am left with no option, but to carry on in that manner.
Sir, the beginning of my discourse is to invite the House to page 7, No. 6.3.1, of your report where we are reminded about the role or functions of an hon. Member of Parliament which, in short, include the following:
“(i) Legislation;
(ii) voting for public expenditure and approving of taxation measures; and
(iii) oversee Government activities and subject them to a detailed scrutiny through such mechanisms as Questions to Ministers, Motions and participation in Parliamentary Committees and debates.”
Mr Speaker, I would like to preface further by reciting the case of the removal of the immunity of one former President, Mr Rupiah Bwezani Banda. At the time when we tried to stop the process owing to the fact that the matter was actually before the courts of law, we were told that Parliament does enjoy unique powers. As such, I would like to insist that if we go by that particular counsel from you, Chair, I would like to say that this whole debate must be looked at wholesomely, to include representation of constituencies that, at the moment, and for a long time, do not enjoy representation as a result of the processes in the courts of law under the judicial system which we believe, based on what I said earlier, must be a subject of the enjoyment of the doctrine of Separation of Powers.
Sir, for me, it will be an exercise in futility to continue debating how we shall reform and modernise ourselves when eight out of the 150 constituencies, namely Malambo, Vubwi, Kasenengwa, Petauke, Solwezi Central, Zambezi West, Mulobezi and Mkushi South, remain unrepresented for a long time.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Nkombo: I think it should be our duty, now that we are convinced that we enjoy unique powers, to be able to throw in minimum influence on the other wing of the Government in order for us not to disadvantage the people whose constituencies are not represented here. I think it is folly for me to think that simply because I was voted for by the people of Mazabuka Central, I must restrict my representation there.
Mr Speaker, as far as I am concerned and speaking for many on the Opposition side, when people say national leaders, it is us they refer to.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Ms Lubezhi: Elected!
Mr Nkombo: So, I am a very concerned hon. Member of Parliament with the fact that these eight constituencies have not had representation, owing to what I deem to be manipulation by the Patriotic Front (PF) Government.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, there are fast-track permutations for court cases to be expended. I think in our reforms and modernisation, we need to make sure that this House is operating at full capacity. I miss the services of one Dora Siliya. I miss the services of one Maxwell Mwale. I miss the services of many of those who have been subjected to a judicial process. I think that in the doctrine of Separation of Powers, this particular wing of Government enjoys the least authority.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Nkombo: This is because if it did enjoy much authority, those constituencies would have been ably represented.
Mr Speaker, the issue about bringing Parliament closer to the people has been one that has been dear to my heart. Why do I say so? We have in our Members’ Handbook and Standing Orders, a dress code. This particular issue of the dress code and accessibility of our people into this Chamber, for me, is a thorny issue and requires to be redressed.
Sir, the Handbook tells us that someone can come in a toga simply because Dr Kenneth Kaunda and Simon Mwansa Kapwepwe used to come here with togas after they copied the style from Kwame Nkrumah in Ghana. What about our own originality?
Hon. Opposition Member: Siziba
Laughter
Dr Kaingu: Siziba.
Mr Nkombo: Sir, some of the people that we represent do not have enough money to afford a pair of shoes. Why is it that someone from Mazabuka who wants to come here to try to understand the proceedings of the House has to dress smartly? How can they dress smartly when the economy cannot allow them to be smart?
Dr Kaingu: What is smart anyway?
Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, President Michael talked about the disabled when he was in the House not long ago.
Mr Muntanga interjected.
Mr Nkombo: Why is it that after fifty years, our Parliament still does not have a ramp for disabled people? We need to work around those things as an institution.
Dr Kaingu interjected.
Mr Nkombo: Sir, the issues of radio connectivity have been debated ably during the Question for Oral Answer segment, but the whole country should be covered so that every single citizen of this country can understand the way we deliberate business here.
Interruptions
Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, on the issue of television broadcasts, the Public Accounts Committee had entered into an agreement with the national broadcaster to produce a programme which I feel went well. However, at some point, we were told that …
Mr Mucheleka: It is making them unpopular.
Mr Nkombo: ... the Government was becoming unpopular and it hid in the fact that the programme was expensive. Expensive for who? We need to move side by side with the people of Zambia so that they can see us broadcast live. The issue of resources should never be a factor. This is what we mean when we say that we want to bring Parliament closer to the people.
Sir, how often have we heard about the misapplication of taxpayer’s money?
Hon. Opposition Member: Issues on Livingstone.
Mr Nkombo: There we go.
Laughter
Mr Nkombo: We need to put our money where our mouths are in order for us to truly be a transparent Parliament.
Mr Speaker, I will now talk about the well being of the hon. Members of Parliament.
Dr Kaingu: Hear, hear!
Mr Nkombo: Sir, the seconder of the Motion ably talked about valedictory services, but I do not want to go there because it is not my wish to die yet.
Laughter
Mr Nkombo: I would like to deal with the issue of conditions of service now and not conditions of service posthumously. I disagree with the Committee on that point. What pleasure will there be for my coffin to replace the Mace simply because I was an hon. Member of Parliament? You need to circumvent my death by giving me the conditions of service that are befitting an hon. Member of Parliament.
Mr Speaker, the Executive wing of Government enjoys Government fuel. For example, while hon. Members travelled to Livingstone communally yesterday, others used their GRZ vehicles to get there.
Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!
Mr Nkombo: Is it a question of priorities.
Sir, hon. Members of the Zambian Parliament are given loans to buy vehicles. I think this is a good opportunity for the country to hear that while we look like we are driving flashy vehicles, we must pay for those vehicles …
Hon. Opposition Member: By yourself.
Mr Nkombo: … by ourselves. What that entails is that we have to deprive our immediate family of certain things.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Nkombo: The perception in the streets is that hon. Members of Parliament are overpaid and overfeed, but that is untrue.
Sir, in my opening statements, I recited the role of an hon. Member of Parliament, but we go beyond legislation, providing oversight and representing our constituents.
Mr Livune: I have spent so much money.
Mr Nkombo: Half the time the bank account is empty.
Hon. Opposition Members: Totally.
Mr Nkombo: My proposal to the Committee …
Hon. Opposition Member: We are in nkongole.
Mr Nkombo: … in next year’s discourse is that they must strongly ask this House to ensure that the Government of the Republic of Zambia (GRZ) provides for a motor vehicle which will be stationed at the constituency office with fuel …
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Nkombo: … so that if I want to go to ko Nchimwayikila or ko Hakapinka, I must be able to go there unhindered by the fact that my fuel tank is on empty.
Mr Livune: You go Makasakeni
Hon. UPND Member: To Hakasipa
Mr Livune: That’s right.
Laughter
Mr Nkombo: All that notwithstanding, I have to pay for my own vehicle and by the time I pay for my vehicle, that is, after the fifth year, …
Mr Livune: It is a wreck.
Mr Nkombo: … it is gone. No wonder someone said it does not take long for an hon. Member to go to Leopard’s Hill after he/she leaves this legislative Assembly.
Hon. Opposition Member: You start walking.
Mr Nkombo: A Member will even be lucky if he/she ends up at Leopards Hill because there are user fees there so they will probably just take the remains of the Member and dump them in Chingwere. The time has come for us to face the harsh realities of life.
Mr Livune: Incidentals also.
Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, the other issue is inflation. The fuel we were able to buy at the time we got that fuel allowance is not the same amount of fuel we are able to buy today. I pity hon. Members of Parliament who come thousands of miles away from here. For instance, in South Africa, hon. Members of Parliament in Cape Town are given return air tickets to and from their constituencies on a weekly basis.
Ms Lubezhi interjected.
Mr Livune: I will shift.
Laughter
Mr Nkombo: Sir, I agree with the Committee that His Honour the Vice-President’s Question Time should be expended in a more useful manner. What I mean by this is that the Chair should monitor our conduct and behaviour in engaging one another. If I ask a question, I must get a specific answer. There should be no skirting around questions so that those whom we represent can benefit.
Mr Speaker, hon. Members should not stand on points of order at every stage, as is seen happening more often today due to the leniency of the Chair. This has caused situations where hon. Member’s questions are not being answered and we spend time reminding the Executive that they did not answer. That is tantamount, if not checked properly, to belittling the Chair. What does it make of the Chair if there is a point of order due to unanswered questions at every stage?
Laughter
Mr Nkombo: We need to be given answers when we ask questions.
Hon. UPND Member: Transport mwazwakale?
Laughter
Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, the President gives the State of the Nation Address every year. It is my wish that, if we had a Leader of the Opposition here, the President could remain seated after his Speech so that he responds to the issues that are raised. In this case, since we do not have a Leader of the Opposition, the Whips of the political parties should be able to address the President in order for us to effectively put the Executive to account.
Ms Lubezhi: Hot spot.
Mr Nkombo: We cannot remain a talking shop where one leaves the Chamber saying sunu ndambaula kabotu kabotu and then nothing happens.
Hon. Members: Meaning?
Mr Nkombo: Meaning naulanda sana lelo naufikapo …
Laughter
The Deputy Chairperson: Meaning?
Mr Nkombo: Meaning you have made your point. We cannot remain a talking shop.
Sir, what I knew when I first came here as a young Member of Parliament was that every statement that Government officials, especially hon. Ministers, put on this Table qualified to be a Government Assurance.
Hon. Opposition Members: Correct.
Interruptions
Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, today, one hon. Minister can say one thing and after half an hour another hon. Minister can say another thing. Let me give an example. The hon. Minister of Agriculture and Livestock at one time said that last year, the farming season was a fiasco.
Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!
Interruptions
Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, he said that. By implication he was talking about his colleague. I think that we need to check ourselves. We need to make sure that we are not just a talking shop.
Sir, as I come to the end of my discussion, I would like to talk about the Parliamentary Service Commission. This is an important commission. The Patriotic Front (PF) Government – look at them and the way they are not even paying attention (pointing at the hon. Government Members).
Laughter
Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, the PF has deliberately delayed the submission and enactment of this Draft Constitution where some of these progressive issues such as the Parliamentary Service Commission are contained. That is what this report of yours is saying (lifting up the report). And every step of the way, we shall remind them of how deceitful they have been regarding this issue of the Constitution.
Interruptions
Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, we will remind them exactly how this ‘donchi kubeba’ has become such a diabolical way of thinking.
Mr Livune: Hear, hear!
Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, they have even taught the youngsters of this country that to tell lies has become a norm.
Interruptions
Mr Miyanda: They must resign.
Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, the Parliamentary Service Commission is contained in the Draft Constitution which these hon. Members on your right side have stolen.
Hon. UPND Members: Aah!
Interruptions
Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, they have stolen the people’s document.
Ms Imenda: Bakaaba.
Hon. UPND Members: Aah!
Mr Nkombo: In the same way they stole the Government by telling us things that they are not able to do, they have stolen the Constitution.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Hon. Government Members: Question!
Interruptions
The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Order! Order!
Mr Nkombo: Now, …
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
You have been debating so well and as you are winding up you should also be toning down …
Interruptions{mospagebreak}
The Deputy Chairperson: … instead of raising the tempo. You can wind up.
Mr Nkombo: Sir, the PF on your right hand side, and I will be mellow about this statement, have stolen the Constitution. The people’s document has gone missing.
The Deputy Chairperson: The word ‘stolen’ is unparliamentary so use an appropriate word.
Mr Nkombo: Sir, I gladly withdraw that word because I have a wealth of English terminologies. These people have abducted our document …
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Nkombo: … just the way they abducted the Government from the Movement for Multi-party Democracy MMD.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Nkombo: These people, at one point, were speaking so truthfully about what they were able to do and what they were not able to do (pointing at the hon. MMD Members).
Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, then came the cowboys …
Laughter
Mr Nkombo: … from Hollywood who brought up flambouyant topics and lofty statements of how they could perform miracles in ninety days.
Interruptions
Mr Deputy Chairperson: Order! Order!
Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, that is deception of the highest order. The issue of the Parliamentary Service Commission is embedded in the Draft Constitution. The Constitution should not just be for the PF, it should be for generations to come. As soon as the United Party for National Democracy (UPND) takes over power and not through stealing or abduction …
Mr Deputy Chairperson: The word ‘stealing’ is unparliamentary.
Mr Nkombo: Sir, I withdraw that word again. Once the UPND takes over power through the front door, …
Mr Livune: That is right.
Mr Nkombo: … we promise that we are going to do the will and aspirations of the Zambian people.
Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!
Hon. Government Members: Never!
Mr Nkombo: Sir, they can say that it will never happen, but it happened to these ones behind me who used to say the same thing.
Laughter
Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, time is a factor.
I thank you, Sir
Mr Ng’onga (Kaputa): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to add my voice on this important Motion. As we debate on the reforms and mordernisation of our Parliament, allow me to quickly look at your Committee’s report and emphasise the issues contained therein.
Sir, let me refer the hon. Members to page 5 where the Committee indicated that research had established that, by and large, very few people know about the existence and role of the constituency offices. This is …
Interruptions
The Deputy Chairperson: Order, on my left! The consultations are rather loud.
Mr Ng’onga: … compounded by the notion that people do not seem to know the roles of the hon. Members of Parliament. This is absolutely true. For the years that I have been in Parliament, I understand and have seen that a number of our people out there do not understand both the roles of the hon. Members of Parliament and also the existence and what these constituency offices are able to do or deliver. I find this to be very pertinent. However, your Committee has ably dealt with this issue and, therefore, I will move on and discuss another issue regarding the submission that was made by the Chairperson of the Committee on Legal Affairs, Human Rights, Gender Matters and Child Affairs. I emphasise and agree that the submission was very correct because I served on this Committee in this particular Committee session. This Committee is extremely loaded and, therefore, its proposal that some of these departments or issues should be looked at by a different Committee makes a lot of sense.
Mr Speaker, allow me to look at another section of your report which looks at the usage of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). This issue is on page 12 and your Committee indicated that the Chairpersons noted that the disbursement of the CDF had been a concern of the hon. Members of Parliament and the public. Therefore, there was a need to find ways of administering this fund.
Sir, this fund is very important in the development of our constituencies. I can safely say that from 2011 to date we have found that in many constituencies, the disbursement of this fund is delayed. It is delayed because of the over-burdened control measures that have been put in place. As hon. Members of Parliament, we want to deliver. We have a very short period and we want to show the people that during the time we served the nation, we left certain developments that they should be able to look at. This fund is very important and can actually bear a lot of tangible benefits within the period that it has been given. However, to our disappointment, the bottlenecks or the bureaucracy in the expenditure of this fund is beyond what we can say. Therefore, there is a proposal that this fund, be it now or in future, should be in our ambit as hon. Members of Parliament. Let us have full control of this fund. We are mature people …
Hon. Opposition Members: Yes.
Mr Ng’onga: … and we should be able to spend and account for this money. All we need are structures and vicinities that will ensure that hon. Members of Parliament are not only deciding on what projects to use it for, but are also able to spend this money so that it can be used effectively and quickly.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Ng’onga: Mr Speaker, allow me to look at one issue which the hon. Member of Parliament for Mazabuka Central raised. This concerns the conditions of service for hon. Members of Parliament. I will take the debate of Hon. Nkombo on this particular topic as mine.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Ng’onga: Mr Speaker, however, allow me to indicate that the conditions of service for hon. Members of Parliament should not only be compared to what exists out there. In actual fact when it comes to the conditions of service for hon. Members of Parliament, this is a debatable issue in the country and everybody thinks that the hon. Members of Parliament get more than they are entitled to. This is not true.
Hon. Members: Yes.
Mr Ng’onga: Whatever money hon. Members get is not for their families alone. It is money shared with communities and the society at large. All those who have passed through Parliament are aware of this.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Ng’onga: It should, therefore, not be an issue.
The issue here should be figures. People, for instance, think that K5,000 is a lot of money, but it is not. All hon. Members seated here will testify that none of them stays with money for over a week. This money is shared in the community and gone within a week.
Mr Speaker, if the people we ratify and vote for, as Members of Parliament, have far better conditions, why can we not get conditions which are even more satisfactory than what is there at the moment? For once, this wing of the Government must look at conditions that are befitting your hon. Members of Parliament.
Let Members of Parliament have the medical conditions and pension schemes that are specified. We can even have a form of saving scheme created where hon. Members can contribute a certain percentage while the institution contributes another, so that at the end of five years, a Member comes out with gratuity and a saving which will see him or her live the life that is befitting this office. This is something that should be looked at because it can be done.
Mr Speaker, I also want to look at the conditions under which hon. Members live at the National Assembly Motel.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Ng’onga: Mr Speaker, for a long time, we have accepted the status quo. Hon. Members of Parliament should definitely not live in such conditions.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Ng’onga: Sir, when those rooms were constructed, they might have served their purpose. With time, however, these rooms are no longer conducive for hon. Members, particularly married ones, who leave their families come to Lusaka for two to three months. It is high time that Parliament looked at these hon. Members’ predicament. We are elderly people with wives and children and want to live in conditions that are favourable to us and our families. Hon. Members who wish to live with their wives or husbands should be able to do so and not be subjected to conditions where they live like bachelors because at the end of the day, you never know, ...
Laughter
Mr Ng’onga: … maybe, this is why we are losing many hon. Members of Parliament.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
The hon. Member wants to continue.
Mr Ng’onga: Thank you, Sir.
Mr Speaker, on conditions of service, there is a lot that hon. Members of Parliament basically deserve …
Mr Mutelo: On a point of order, Sir.
The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.
Mr Mutelo: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Member debating so well in order not to finish the good sentence that he ended with “you never know … ”
Laughter
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
The serious ruling is that had it not been for that point of order, he would have finished it.
You may continue.
Laughter
Mr Ng’onga: Mr Speaker, not to take up much of the time, I would like to look at one other important point that has been highlighted in your Committees’ report. It has come out in the report that hon. Members of Parliament, both Back Bench and Executive, need to have official vehicles bought by this wing of the Government.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Ng’onga: This is extremely important, Sir.
Mr Speaker, we drive vehicles which are paid for with loans and yet the work that hon. Members of Parliament do is 24/7. He or she is called upon any time. For example, I travel from Lusaka to Kaputa, then go round the constituency, on very bad roads, with a vehicle that I pay for every month. In fact, some of the vehicles do not even go up to five years. I have seen some of them that will finish within three or four years.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Ng’onga: We want Parliament to take up this responsibility so that we have vehicles that are stationed in the constituencies. This way, hon. Members will be able to use them effectively.
Furthermore, Sir, our support staff in the constituency offices should be given responsibilities. They should be able to speak on our behalf and perform certain functions when we are not available at the office. These men and women must have certain facilities to effectively engage communities. I know that the question of expenses will come in, but as one hon. Member said, it is important to put money where people are. It is the people of Zambia that need these services so they must be serviced properly.
With these few words, Sir, I thank you.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Ms Namugala (Mafinga): Mr Speaker, I thank you.
Sir, this is one of those rare opportunities when we are allowed to debate ourselves and I hope that many more Members of Parliament will debate this report because it touches our core function.
Mr Speaker, as I support this Motion, I want to first start by bemoaning the lack of independence or the undermining of the independence of the Legislature by the Executive.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Ms Namugala: Mr Speaker, this House has been undermined to the extent that even as we sit here, we do not enjoy the freedom that we should as Members of Parliament. Many of us seated here, especially we, on your left, Sir, have been victims of very unfair petitions that have left many of us economically impoverished.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Dr Kaingu: Impotent!
Laughter
Ms Namugala: Mr Speaker, many of us, having worked hard and won our elections, were taken to court. We petitioned and paid a lot of money. This is why I am saying that the Legislature has been undermined and continues to be undermined by the Executive.
Mr Speaker, because of being undermined we, as Members of Parliament, feel weakened to exercise our role and are begging the Office of Mr Speaker to protect us.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Ms Namugala: We have been told, and there is no need for me to belabour this point, that it is unprecedented that so many seats can be vacant for such a long time and so many constituencies remain unrepresented simply because the Executive feel that they can only have representation when it so wish. Again, it is wrong and we demand that this House be allowed to exercise its role in the governance of this country.
Mr Speaker, a lot of hon. Members of Parliament have bemoaned or expressed their concerns about their welfare. Sir, your hon. Members of Parliament are some of the most impoverished Members in the region.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Ms Namugala: Even as they go to interact at regional and international level, they feel inferior …
Laughter
Ms Namugala: … because they are some of the few hon. Members of Parliament in the region that have to pay for a vehicle that they use to exercise the role for which they were elected.
Mr Speaker, hon. Members of the Executive have personal-to-holder vehicles. They also have utility vehicles and do not get them via loans. They are given these vehicles for them to exercise the role for which they were appointed. Why, then, should ordinary hon. Members of Parliament pay for these vehicles?
Sir, I would like to propose that serious consideration be included in the reforms so that these vehicles are bought for work and that hon. Members for Parliament are not given loans for these vehicles. In fact, hon. Members of Parliament who have other transport should be allowed to get a loan to use on projects of their choice, such as buying houses, because at the end of the day, a vehicle can be imposed on a person who has a vehicle as a loan, but it has to be left open for hon. Members to choose what they wish to get the loan for. Therefore, hon. Members of Parliament must be given resources if they so wish at a concessional rate to buy houses. At the end of the day, we would not want our hon. Members of Parliament to become destitute.
Mr Speaker, where is the justification for nominated hon. Members of Parliament …
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Ms Namugala: … to have access to a vehicle on loan, which vehicle is parked for five years while the vehicle given to an elected hon. Member of Parliament suffers through all the five years.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Ms Namugala: At the end of five years, the nominated hon. Member of Parliament will have a vehicle from the Government, a personal-to-holder brand new car, and a brand new vehicle from Parliament parked. Where is the justification?
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Ms Namugala: Sir, why should a nominated hon. Member of Parliament get a vehicle loan from Parliament when he/she does not have a constituency?
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Namugala: Mr Speaker, this is unfair and must change.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Sir.
The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.
Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, I normally do not do such things, but I am compelled to rise on a point of order. First of all, may I apologise to the hon. Member of Parliament for Mafinga.
Sir, the hon. Member of Parliament for Kantanshi who is a Minister of Works, Supply and chakuti, chakuti and is also my contemporary …
The Deputy Chairperson: What do you mean by chakuti, chakuti?
Mr Nkombo: Sir, it means and so on and so forth.
Sir, the hon. Member is also my fellow Whip and is engaged to help you, Sir, keep order in the House. Therefore, is he in order to continue disturbing a clear message from the hon. Member of Parliament for Mafinga by continuously making running commentaries in a very audible manner so that he subdues what we want to hear from the hon. Member for Mafinga? Is he in order, Sir?
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
The ruling is that I have difficulties to make a ruling for the simple reason that both my left and my right have got people who are specialised in making running commentaries. When you look to the right, somebody on the left will be making commentaries. When you leave the right and look to the left, the same happens on the right. It makes it very difficult for me to make a ruling. Therefore, I hope this is a sufficient warning that if we want to consult, let us consult less loudly so that I am able to follow the proceedings. Had there been no running commentaries on both sides, I would have been in a position to make a ruling.
May the hon. Member for Mafinga may continue.
Ms Namugala: Mr Speaker, let me come to the issue of the welfare of hon. Members of Parliament. It appears that being a Member of Parliament is the only role that one assumes without having conditions of service clearly stipulated.
Mr Speaker, on Page 37 of the report of your Committee, it says:
“Hon. Members of Parliament have no conditions of service written down, for them to follow and understand just what to expect as they play their role as hon. Members of Parliament.”
Mr Speaker, there must be something wrong with us, as hon. Members of Parliament. We are sitting here without knowing our conditions of service.
Laughter
Ms Namugala: Mr Speaker, I am sure there are some that we do not even enjoy because we do not know them. There is something wrong with us. I, therefore, agree with the Committee that hon. Members of Parliament must awaken and demand that conditions of service be spelt out to them.
Sir, the salaries of hon. Members of Parliament are so low that sometimes you do not want to disclose your salary to family members because they will ask you questions such as why are you there? What are you doing and what is wrong with you? You have left whatever you do to become a Member of Parliament only to earn this?
Mr Speaker, the Government of the Republic of Zambian can afford to pay its hon. Members of Parliament better than it is doing now. The problem has been that because we feel, as representatives, we must not appear that we want more money, therefore, we are shy to demand for it.
Mr Speaker, we want more money.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Ms Namugala: We deserve more money.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Ms Namugala: Sir, our role, as Members of Parliament, demands that when we arrive in our constituencies, we start spending. Many people who run businesses get money from their businesses to spend in their constituencies.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Ms Namugala: Sir, it does not make economic sense. Although we know that we can never be remunerated to the extent that we spend, we still feel we must be given more money, especially that the Chair also has a constituency in a very far-flung area.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Do not bring the Chair into your debate.
You may continue.
Laughter
Ms Namugala: Mr Speaker, the recent increase in our sitting allowances has no effect on the gratuity, mid-term or end of term. We all know that the sitting allowance that we get just ends up in the constituencies.
Sir, we demand that our salaries be increased so that our gratuity can also go up. The general public needs to know that their representatives are poorly remunerated. I, therefore, do not think that members of the public will be happy to have an hon. Member of Parliament who is not able to pay school fees for his/her children, not able to drive decent vehicles and late alone live in a decent house. You cannot be a leader if you are impoverished.
Mr Speaker, let me now talk about our pension. Why should we sow for five years and go out and have nothing to show for it? We meet your former hon. Members of Parliament outside and they are impoverished. We do not want to end up like that. We demand that a pension be stored on hon. Members of Parliament through the Modernisation Committee.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Ms Namugala: Sir, let me talk about the Executive. It is a pity that His Honour, the Vice-President is not in the House. His Honour the Vice-President does not even have a life pension like the President and yet, he sits here representing the Government. The President is going to continue enjoying a salary until the end of his life, but His Honour the Vice-President …
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.
[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the Chair]
Ms Namugala: Mr Speaker, before we adjourned for tea, I was trying to show just how unfair our current system is. I was making reference to His Honour the Vice-President, who sits in this House on behalf of the Government, and at the end of the term, he will go home. I know he will not go back to his country, but he will go, ...
Laughter
Ms Namugala: Mr Speaker, he will go with nothing to show that he was the Vice-President. He acts as President when the incumbent is not in the country. However, he will not get any pension. The same applies to the hon. Members of Parliament. At the end of five years, I will go back to Mafinga in Mulekatembo with nothing to show that I was Member of Parliament for three terms.
Sir, the welfare of hon. Members of Parliament, as I have said, must be looked at. Again, the issue of a motor vehicle which does not belong to the hon. Member of Parliament and yet the Member of Parliament pays insurance for it must be looked into. If it is not for the hon. Member of Parliament, why should the Member of Parliament pay insurance for this vehicle?
Mr Speaker, I know that many people have spoken about this, and many more will speak. We need to revisit this loan scheme so that we can make it fair for hon. Members of Parliament, both those that have constituencies and the nominated ones.
Sir, I would also like to talk about the identity of the Member of Parliament. I have attended many meetings where the District Commissioner (DC) is also present. There is more respect accorded to the DC. I do not mean to be disrespectful to the DCs, but in terms of rank, the Member of Parliament is more senior because he or she represents a constituency. The DC has a driver while the Member of Parliament does not have one. If the Member of Parliament has to drive to Mafinga, he or she must carry a driver who must be paid, at the end of the day, from the little that the Member of Parliament gets.
Mr Speaker, I do not live at the motel, but I visit it. The standards at our motel are not good for hon. Members of Parliament who represent constituencies. Some of the rooms are decorated as though this was 1946.
Laughter
Ms Namugala: Sir, when Members of Parliament have gone back to their respective constituencies and are not lodging at the motel, political cadres use those rooms.
Mr Speaker, I realise that I am running out of time, but in the name of modernisation, I am sorry to make reference to this, but I must say it because this is the only opportunity that I have. Why do you wear white wigs? This is the 21st Century and so, why should the Chairperson of the House wear a white wig? It is a reminder of the colonisation that we suffered.
Laughter
The Deputy Chairperson: I hope you are not saying that a Brazilian wig is welcome.
Laughter
Ms Namugala: Mr Speaker, I think these are some of the traditions that we need to get rid of. Our beautiful Clerks-at-Your Table, can very proudly show off their hair without being made to wear the heavy wigs that are so hot.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Ms Namugala: Mr Speaker, I am surprised that the Committee on Reforms and Modernisation has not talked about the head gear worn by the Chairperson or the Speaker of the House and the Clerks-at-the Table. That head gear must go. We do not want to be reminded that we were colonised for such a long time. Time to move forward is now.
Mr Speaker, the hon. Member for Mazabuka Central mentioned the need for public broadcasts of the sitting of this House and the Committees. The Public Accounts Committee is your oversight Committee and it uncovers so many wrongs, not by the political leaders in Government, but by the civil servants in Government. Therefore, it is only right that we allow the Zambian people to know who is doing what. Sir, many are the times when your hon. Ministers are accused of stealing resources and yet we know, …
The Deputy Chairperson: The word stealing is unparliamentary. So, please, withdraw it.
Ms Namugala: Mr Speaker, I withdraw it and replace it with misappropriating resources. Even as they sit there as hon. Ministers, they do not see cheques and have no access to resources. Those that have access to resources are the officers who report to them. However, the people of Zambia insult them, as political leaders, and accuse them of misappropriating resources. The Committee on Reforms and Modernisation should have indicated that there is a need for live broadcasts of these Committee sittings so that the people of Zambia can get to understand where the money being used to build houses in Chalala is coming from. They need to understand, …
Mr Lubinda: On a point of order, Sir.
The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.
Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, I am sorry to disturb the flow of thought of my colleague. However, is she, really, in order to single out a community like that in such a derogatory manner to imply that all the people who are building houses in Chalala are suspected thieves? I say this because I represent those people. So, is she in order to criminalise all of them wantonly?
The Deputy Chairperson: The serious ruling is that, if I followed the hon. Member’s debate very well, she was merely using Chalala as an example.
Hon. Member, you may continue.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Ms Namugala: Mr Speaker, not just Chalala, but Mongu and, maybe, Kasama as well. Not all of them, …
Mr Shakafuswa: On a point of order, Sir.
The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised. That will be the last point of order on this hon. Member who is debating so well.
Mr Shakafuswa: Mr Speaker, I rise on a very serious point of order. Is the hon. Member of Parliament for Kabwata in order to stand and disturb the debate of the hon. Member for Mafinga, who is debating very well, without declaring interest that he is also building a house in Chalala?
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
The Deputy Chairperson: I am unable to make a ruling on that because I have no information that the hon. Member for Kabwata is, in fact, building a house there. Even if he built a house, it is within his constitutional right.
The hon. Member may continue.
Ms Namugala: Mr Speaker, we need to convey the correct information to the people of Zambia. The problem we have is not at political level. Most of the problems in service delivery are at implementation level by the civil servants. This is what the role of Committees like the Public Accounts Committee should be. Alas, these hon. Ministers feel that by having public broadcasts, and Hon. Mwansa Kapeya knows – sorry, Mr Speaker – that we are embarrassing the Government when, in fact, not.
Mr Kapeya: On a point of order, Sir.
Laughter
Mr Deputy Chairperson: Order!
I already made a ruling on that.
Ms Namugala: Mr Speaker, public broadcasts of these Committee sittings is a must and we need the support of this Government.
With these words, Mr Speaker, I wish to support the Motion.
I thank you.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, thank you for according me the opportunity to support the Report of the Parliamentary Reforms and Modernisation Committee for 2013/2014. As I debate this report, I want to express my disappointment with this House for the last twelve years I have been here.
Interruptions
Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, for the last twelve years I have been in this House, we have always been discussing the welfare of hon. Members of Parliament. It would appear that hon. Members of Parliament are the enemies of themselves. Whenever we raise these issues, those in Government think that because they sleep on beds with flowers, they should not support the lamentations of other hon. Members of Parliament.
Mr Mwaliteta interjected.
Mr Shakafuswa: You debate, iwe (pointing at Mr Mwaliteta).
Mr Mwiimbu: However, from what I know, in most instances, the ones who have become destitute are the ones who have been in the Executive before because of the inherent responsibilities they have and status they have in society. So, I would like to appeal to all of us here that as we debate these issues, we should not been seen to be discriminating against each other. The issues that concern the hon. Members of Parliament on your left also affect those on your right, apart from a few issues.
Mr Speaker, I would like to start with the issue of the oversight role of your Committees. I would like to say and speak without fear of any contradiction that the Committee system in this Parliament is the weakest in the region. The Committee system in this Parliament is so impotent that your Committees have no power to provide the requisite oversight role. We are made to understand that as Committee members, we are supposed to provide an oversight role over ministries. We do not do that role.
Mr Speaker, as the Chairperson of the Committee on Legal Affairs, Governance, Human Rights, Gender Matters and Child Affairs, I know that we are supposed to be the oversight players on the part of the Ministry of Gender and Child Development and Ministry of Justice. I would like to speak on behalf of my Committee that we are not involved pertaining to the functions of these ministries I have mentioned because of the weak Committee system.
Mr Speaker, this is not the case in other jurisdictions. I recall that I travelled with you to Uganda and we were given briefs pertaining to how Committees in the Ugandan Parliament operate. The Committees in Uganda discuss the budgets of ministries and have reports pertaining to the management of those particular ministries. Your Committees in this House do not do that. I would like to appeal that next time the Parliamentary Reforms and Modernisation Committee make recommendations to the effect, Committees must be reformed so that they can play the requisite oversight role.
Mr Speaker, we have been debating the issues of the salaries and conditions of service of hon. Members of Parliament. On a number of occasions, I have talked about the issue of sitting allowances. I have been saying that we should not be paid sitting allowances separately because when the sitting allowances are paid separately from our salaries, they do not contribute towards gratuity. If the allowances were paid together with the salaries, our gratuities would have been reasonable and acceptable.
Unfortunately, this is not what we have been doing, and we are doing a disservice to ourselves. I know some people have been asking what we are going to be using during the course of the week if we are not paid sitting allowances. However, if allowances are paid together with the salaries, you plan how you are going to spend the money.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, that way, the salaries of hon. Members of Parliament will be increased. I am not going to talk about the figures, but assume all of us add up our sitting allowances together with the salaries, surely it will be something reasonable. If it is paid at the end of the month, you can plan. Unfortunately we are not doing that.
Mr Speaker, the other issue which I would like to talk about is one matter which we have been discussing and, that is, vehicles for hon. Members of Parliament. From the year I came to Parliament, we have been discussing this issue. We have been saying that we are the only Parliament where hon. Members of Parliament borrow money in order to do the Government’s work. Surely, is it reasonable for me to go and borrow money so that I should go and do the Government’s work?
Hon. Opposition Members: No.
Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, it is not fair or reasonable. We all know that most of these vehicles which we drive cost not less than K10,000 per service. How much money do we get as hon. Members of Parliament to have these vehicles serviced regularly?
Mr Hamusonde: Peanuts.
Mr Mwiimbu: We get peanuts. It is advisable that these vehicles must be Government vehicles, but we should be given an option of borrowing if we want an extra vehicle. Our vehicles must be maintained by the Government and even the insurance must be paid by the Government. It is only fair that it is so done.
Mr Speaker, I also want to talk about the issue of mortgages. I recall that there were colleagues on your right in the past who used to object to the idea of hon. Members of Parliament being given mortgages. A mortgage is a loan. However, I have noticed and seen that a number of them are now destitute and do not even have houses. Their families are wallowing in poverty. Why should we allow ourselves to suffer instead of having conditions of services that will better our living as Members of Parliament?
Mr Speaker, we are also aware that hon. Members of Parliament perform national duties abroad, but the so-called insurance cover is inadequate. I would like to declare interest at this point. When I broke my arm, I attempted to make a claim with an insurance company, but was advised that Parliament had insured me for K10,000.
Mr Nkombo: You?
Mr Mwiimbu: Yes, I was insured for K10,000. I have refused to make a claim and will never claim that K10,000 because I have spent more than K170,000 on this arm. I may be more privileged than others, but I can imagine how a number of my colleagues who have no other source of income can manage to sustain that bill. It is not fair.
Interruptions
Mr Mwiimbu: We are also aware that when hon. Members of Parliament go outside this country, there is a purported insurance. If you fall sick abroad, you have to find money to pay for your medical fees. When you come back, they will tell you to make a claim in order to be paid. A number of our colleagues have died out there on duty, but because they were not adequately insured, they could not access medical facilities. It is high time that we changed the way we manage the affairs of this institution.
Mr Speaker, I am also aware that there is this perception that when you are a Member of Parliament, you inherit the wider family in society. When we are in the constituencies, we are supposed to look after those who have been bereaved. We are also supposed to look after orphans.
Mr Sing’ombe: Nimanchembele kaufela.
Mr Mwiimbu: We are also supposed to assist those who want to get married.
Mr Livune: Pay lobola.
Mr Mwiimbu: And so many other responsibilities.
Mr Livune: Even in Chasefu.
Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, we are doing this out of our megre salaries and allowances.
Mr Livune: Does it happen in Chasefu?
Mr Mwiimbu: I pity a colleague of mine who is in this House. This is my colleague, the Member of Parliament for Kabwata Constituency who also stays in Kabwata. I know that every day, he is visited by people who are looking for assistance at his house.
Mr Livune: Raise a point of order, Lubinda.
Mr Mwiimbu: He has to find money to assist those people outside his salary because the salary is meagre. I am sorry, my colleague, to use you as an example, but that is the fact. The perception is that hon. Members of Parliament get a lot of money so they must be able to assist the community. It is not possible unless we, ourselves, look after ourselves.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}
Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, as we consider the conditions of service, we should also look at the conditions prevailing in this House. The Committee should look at a system that should espouse consistency in the way we manage the affairs of this House.
Mr Sing’ombe: Tomorrow.
Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, we are members of the public. The perception of this House, by the people out there, is not good. It is high time we looked at the way we conduct ourselves and at the way affairs are conducted on the Floor of this House.
Mr Speaker, the Standing Orders are very clear. We are supposed to rely on precedence, the Standing Orders, the laws, customs and traditions of Westminster and other Parliaments that are in the Commonwealth, but it would appear that we are diverting from these traditions so much that your Members find it difficult to debate on the Floor of this House.
Mr Muntanga: Yes!
Mr Mwiimbu: We would want you, our leaders in this House, to come up with a system that shall guide us on how we are going to debate and conduct ourselves here. As it is now, it is very difficult to rely on precedence. It is very difficult to rely on the previous rulings that were made on the Floor of this House.
Mr Shakafuswa: Ni chi pante pante
Mr Mwiimbu: You will find that on the same day, three different rulings are made on a similar issue.
Mr Shakafuswa: By the Chair.
Laughter
Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, you are our guardian in this House. You are the custodian of the rights of the hon. Members of Parliament. If we are wrong, we should be guided. We do not refuse, but there must be consistency so that as we debate, we are not seen to be offending the rules and regulations of this House.
Mr Shakafuswa: And offending the Chair.
Mr Mwiimbu: It is my plea.
Mr Speaker, I have noted that the Committee has recommended that we must have a day where we should interact with Mr Speaker. That is very important. This is the only arm of the Government where members of an institution have no direct access to the head of the institution. We are not free to collectively discuss issues.
Mr Mufalali: Hear, hear!
Mr Mwiimbu: The Cabinet has meetings every Monday …
Mr Shakafuswa: Monday, it had one.
Mr Mwiimbu: … with the Head of Cabinet, the President.
Mr Livune: But did they have one last Monday?
Mr Mwiimbu: The Judiciary has their own meetings weekly but, here, the only meetings which we have are the orientation meetings every five years. That is very unhealthy. I will plead that space be found where your hon. Members must be free to interact with the Hon. Mr Speaker and yourselves as Presiding Officers. That is the only way you can manage an institution like Parliament diligently.
Mr Speaker, I was thinking that the last time when we debated this Motion, the resolution of your Committee was going to be implemented.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mwiimbu: I still want to remind you of the comments I made. I related my comments to the issue of the demise of an Member of Parliament.
Mr Speaker, I did question why the Speaker should not be allowed to attend the funeral of an hon. Member of Parliament.
Mr Muntanga: Yes. You said it.
Mr Mwiimbu: Why should that not be allowed? The President attends funerals of his Cabinet members. The Chief Justice attends funerals of his Judges, but it is only the Speaker who is not allowed to attend funerals of his hon. Members. The Speaker is not even allowed to interact with hon. Members of Parliament at their homes or in their clubs. Those traditions are archaic, outdated, and obnoxious.
Laughter
Mr Mwiimbu: I was going to say gullible, but due to the fact that it may be said to be unparliamentarly, I withdraw it. A Speaker is a member of the public.
Mr Hamudulu: Yes.
Mr Mwiimbu: A Speaker is a Member of Parliament.
Mr Muntanga: Yes, we elected him.
Mr Mwiimbu: He should be seen to be interacting with us.
Mr Muntanga: At the motel.
Mr Mwiimbu: I can imagine if this hon. Member of Parliament rises from his death (pointing at Hon. Katuka).
Mr Muntanga: Which one?
Mr Mwiimbu: And hears that the Hon. Mr Speaker did not come to his funeral. How would he feel?
Laughter
Hon. Opposition Members: Which one?
Mr Mwiimbu: Hon. Katuka.
Laughter
Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, we should do away with this tradition. It should not be allowed. The Hon. Mr Speaker must be seen to be interacting with us. We are his Members. We are not opponents.
Last but not the least, as a Member of the Privileges Committee, I have been saddened. I do not want to debate you, Mr Speaker, but I have noted that the office that is being occupied by the Deputy Chairperson of Committees of the Whole House is inferior in this Parliament.
Mr Mufalali: Hear, hear!
Mr Mwiimbu: The Deputy Chairperson of Committees of the Whole House has no secretary. We share the same secretary all of us and ...
Mr Muntanga: Ah!
Mr Mwiimbu: … that secretary is now occupying the telephone room.
Laughter
Mr Speaker, I used to believe that, as leader of this institution, you are third in the hierarchy of the nation. However, I have started to doubt whether you really are third in hierarchy …
Laughter
Mr Mwiimbu: … because of the way you are accommodated here. It is not fair. It is demeaning to the integrity of this House.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mwiimbu: Something must be done. You are our leader.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mwiimbu: We get dignitaries coming to visit and when they come to your office, they find that you are in a ramshackle of an office. It is demeaning.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mwiimbu: It should not be allowed and I hope that this is the last we are going to discuss this matter.
Mr Speaker, I thank you.
Dr Lungu (Chama South): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me the chance to contribute to the Motion which is on the Floor that we accept the Report of the Committee on Parliamentary Reforms and Modernisation.
Mr Speaker, to speak after many colleagues have spoken can be a disadvantage to a very good debater.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Dr Lungu: This is why the British made it a point, coming from my lecturing background, that in every school, the time table was set in such a way that English was taught first, that is, at 0755 hours.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Dr Lungu: The reason is simple. The children’s and teachers’ minds are fresh. So, colleagues, bear with me. I will be offloading some important information on this subject ...
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Dr Lungu: … although I am late speaking and you are very tired.
Interruptions
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
Dr Lungu: Equally, speaking after colleagues such as Jack Mwiindu …
Hon. UPND Members: Mwiimbu.
Dr Lungu: Hon. Jack Mwiimbu, Hon. Catherine Namugala and Hon. Nkombo may also serve as a disservice because people are used to those voices time and again. However, I want to beg people in and out of the House to listen to a new speech, a new voice and a new direction.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Hon. Members: Yowoya, mwanangwa!
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
I am anxious to listen to the new voice.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Dr Lungu: Mr Speaker, from the outset, allow me to recognise the good work of the Committee which comprised very high profiled personnel. I want to put on record that the work was properly done and ably moved and seconded.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Dr Lungu: It is from this premise that I want to start my debate which I have captured in three segments. It will go chronologically although it might be helter-skelter, here and there, but please, be attentive.
Laughter
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Hon. Member: Yowoya, mwanangwa.
Dr Lungu: The Committee has divided the report into six parts, but for the purpose of this discussion and for the sake of time, I will key in into part one and part three of the report in this manner. In the first part, I will look at the duties of the Member of Parliament and the constituency office, which have been ably tabled on Pages 6 and 7 of the report. I will then look at the availability of the Member of Parliament in the constituency and the plight of the Member of Parliament (the high expectation of the Member of Parliament). In part three, I will look at the construction of constituency offices and conclude.
Mr Speaker, the Member of Parliament and the office are one in the constituency. The duties have been well sumarised by the Committee. Sir, there are serious challenges and lapses, one of which is information. People that succeed in life depend on information. Without information, you are actually driving for failure. The constituency office has no information on what to do. Therefore, when hon. Members of Parliament go to the constituency offices, they do not find anything to do.
Mr Speaker, there is gross misinterpretation of the duties and roles that are expected of hon. Members of Parliament. The electorates think that when we are in the constituencies, it is our duty to supply personal needs to every household. Every hon. Member seated in here will agree with me that a visit to a constituency is not very interesting financially.
Laughter
Dr Lungu: I have asked members of my Committee and colleagues in the House after they have visited the constituencies. When they come back, they are sadder than they went. The reason is simple. When they go there, they must attend every funeral and must buy coffins and must also provide food. When they are asleep, they are woken up and told, “My daughter is about to deliver. Do you have napkins?”
Laughter
Dr Lungu: These are some of the issues. There is high expectation of our roles. It is not that we do not go to our constituencies. That is not possible. When House rises, the hon. Members of Parliament go to their constituencies. The only difference is that you are only noticed if you have given something to an electorate. If you are there and have not parted with any money, to them, you have not arrived.
Laughter
Dr Lungu: You are still in Lusaka.
Laughter
Dr Lungu: Regarding this dilemma and plight, I am labouring on behalf of my colleagues both on the right and left. There is high expectation.
Mr Speaker, this is the most uncomfortable job I have ever had. I am here, but my family at home is being insulted.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Dr Lungu: One will drink and pass by my mother’s house and say “We shall see in 2016.”
Laughter
Dr Lungu: “This is the last you have eaten.” Now, when I go home, my mother asks what 2016 is because every time people drink, they pass by and say, “We shall see in 2016.” I tell her to, please, just be comfortable. These are politics. So, what I am trying to tell the House and people out there is that this is a very uncomfortable job.
Sir, when you drive a parliamentary vehicle to your constituency office, by the time you come out of the office, people have paraded and are looking at your vehicle and saying “This is what we bought you.”
Laughter
Dr Lungu: They do not believe that you are actually paying for that vehicle. I am quite sure that my colleagues have laboured on the point that people think that we are very rich. We are not. The conditions of service have already been sumarised by my colleagues that we are not getting more than people expect. People think that we get a lot of money. It is not true. So, in that vein, Mr Speaker, I want to inform the public that our roles are to supervise projects. We are the middlemen between the electorates and the Government. You give us your problems and we take them to the Government. The Government releases the funds. The Member of Parliament does not develop the constituency from his/her pocket. It is not true.
Mr Musukwa: Bauze. doctor.
Dr Lungu: Development is done by the Government through Road Development Agency (RDA), for example, if it is construction of roads. We can only do a little with the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) like build a house that has collapsed or a one 1 x 3 classroom block. Those are the projects that we can do. However, you find others who say I want you to use your own money. Where will I get it?
Laughter
Dr Lungu: So, development is channelled properly.
Hon. Member: Yowoya!
Dr Lungu: Mr Speaker, I have learnt, through my many years of teaching and lecturing, that you leave the stage when people are clapping. You do not leave the stage when they have stopped. It means that you are not being interesting.
I want to key in into the last factor which is the construction of constituency offices. I am happy to learn that Chama South has benefited from this grant. Out of the fifteen that were proposed, three have been accepted and Chama South is the first. To be the first out of fifteen, means that I have scored a first. Therefore, if we are going to have a new office, which is now in our gazette, it means that our output will also increase. However, it is one thing to say something, and another thing to implement it. I want to advise that since this has been approved, there should be information about a time frame for construction, how much money will be released, at what level it will be released, and how many members of staff will be employed there. Yes, it is good for the parliamentary office to be built in Chama South, but kindly avail me with the time table for its construction. In December, 2013, I lost my professional assistant because his contract was not renewed. To date, no interview has been conducted. The advert for the job was sent out a long time ago. I am wondering where the money that that man used to get is going because I do not have any professional assistant now.
Mr Speaker, I am also now talking to the Clerk of the National Assembly and the rest of her staff …
Interruptions
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
Address the issues, not the Clerk of the National Assembly.
Dr Lungu: Mr Speaker, I withdraw my statement. Let me address the issues. As I conclude, I am happy that we have got a parliamentary office and I hope that within the next twelve months or so, it will be finished.
With these very few, but piercing remarks, …
Laughter
Dr Lungu: … I want to say thank you very much and accept and adopt the report of this Committee.
Mr Speaker, I beg to move.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
Since most of the issues appear to be common cause, I hope that the next hon. Member to speak will talk on other issues instead of repeating the same points over and over.
Hon. Members: January Zimba!
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
Since there is only one speaker remaining, the hon. Member for Luena may take the Floor.
Hon. Members: Ah!
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
The Speaker will not be told who to choose.
Laughter
Ms Imenda (Luena): Mr Speaker, since you have guided that I speak on different issues, I would like to adopt the issues that have been raised by the previous hon. Members on the Floor as mine, especially those from the hon. Member for Mafinga …
Interruptions
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
May I have order on the right?
Ms Imenda: Mr Speaker, let me address the issue of the constituency offices. I do not know if it is only my constituency which has an office which is poorly organised. There is inadequate office furniture and equipment. For example, ever since I became an hon. Member of Parliament, the only computer that was supposed to be used in the office was not working and I think that it only got repaired a couple of months ago. Therefore, it was very difficult to get things typed and other work done. Somebody mentioned that one of the roles of the constituency office is to enable hon. Members of Parliament to meet people at the office. However, where are they going to sit when there is no furniture? Are we going to sit under a tree considering there are very big Rosewood trees at my constituency office? However, I thought I should …
Dr Kaingu: On a point of order, Sir.
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
A point of order is raised.
Dr Kaingu: Mr Speaker, I am sorry for disturbing my sister.
Mr Speaker, are the hon. Members who debated and who are still debating in order not to mention that actually, Parliament is a bad employer? Look at the way the hon. Members have been lamenting the loans and maintenance of their vehicles, poor salaries and sitting allowances.
Hon. Opposition Member: Motel.
Dr Kaingu: Mr Speaker, are they in order not to mention that actually, if Parliament does not change, it will remain a bad employer? Are they in order?
Laughter
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
They are in order in so far as they are debating reforms.
Ms Imenda: Mr Speaker, there are also no telecommunication facilities such as internet at the constituency offices. Therefore, it is so difficult to communicate with Parliament when there is something urgent. The staff finds it very difficult to communicate with Parliament or with the hon. Member of Parliament. They have to go to the market to find a business café or send something by Express Mail and that takes a bit of time, when they could have used information technology facilities had they been available at the office.
Mr Speaker, I would also like to touch on the issue of the library at the constituency office. I believe that every constituency office should have a library, but the library at my constituency office is so poorly organised. There are no shelves. The little literature that we get from the National Assembly is just put on the floor. Even if people wanted to come and learn about the constituency, they would have nowhere to sit because there is no furniture. How would they access whatever little information there is? Therefore, these issues should be considered so that we operate in an environment that is conducive to our work because most of us come from offices that were quite well respected.
Mr Speaker, to cut a long story short, let me say that the constituency office is a focal point for Government officials coming to the constituency. You will find that Government officials go to the constituency office when the local hon. Member of Parliament does not know anything about their visit. They just sneak into the constituency and speak to some people. I do not know what they speak about. They say that they speak about development, but they do not inform the hon. Member of Parliament. I would like to think that if an hon. Minister, hon. Deputy Minister or civil servant wants to go to my constituency office, the Government would be courteous enough to inform my personal assistant. This way, if there is time, I can also rush there and be with my hon. Minister so that we speak from the same platform on developmental issues, as I would like to believe that these hon. Ministers go there for development issues. How do you go to speak about development issues when you have left out the hon. Member of Parliament who has been elected by the people in the constituency? What are you talking about or backbiting? If it is development you are talking about, then you should be on the same platform with the area hon. Member of Parliament.
Mr Speaker, sometimes hon. Members of Parliament are unable to attend council meetings that take place in districts because of short notice. My suggestion is that personal assistants should be allowed to represent the hon. Member of Parliament.
Sir, I know that you have guided against certain issues, but I would also like to add my voice onto the issue of impoverished hon. Members of Parliament. As the hon. Member of Parliament for Chama South, Dr Lungu, said, when people say that the hon. Member of Parliament is not seen, it does not mean that he/she does not visit the constituency. It is because they expect to be lavished with handouts. If you do not do that, then, they will say that the hon. Member does not visit the constituency. This could be the reason some hon. Members fear to visit their constituencies. If they have no money, they will not be recognised by their constituents and they will be stuck. They have no money to buy these …
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
That issue has been flogged. Can you move to another one.
Ms Imenda: Mr Speaker, I would also want to mention that some people perceive hon. Opposition Members of Parliament not to be part of the Government. If an hon. Opposition Member of Parliament does something, they say the Government has done it. Hon. Opposition Members of Parliament are excluded.
Sir, let me give an example of what happened in my constituency. In conjunction with one international non-governmental organisation (NGO), we built a clinic. When that clinic was due for commissioning, the hon. Member of Parliament was not invited to the ceremony …
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
Are you recommending that, that be part of the reforms?
Ms Imenda: Mr Speaker, I am talking about hon. Opposition Members of Parliament not being regarded as part of the Government.
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
Let us remain focused.
Ms Imenda: Mr Speaker, may I also suggest that hon. Members of Parliament should be given some kind of identity so that when there is traffic, they can be easily identified and be allowed to move. This is because sometimes, hon. Members of Parliament are caught up in traffic, but police officers do not recognise them and they have to be …
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
On that point, I thought the Clerk issues a card to every hon. Member of Parliament. I am surprised you did not get yours.
Please, continue.
Laughter
Ms Imenda: Mr Speaker, I am not talking about that. What I am trying to say is that hon. Members should be given discs to stick on windscreens so that they are clearly identified by police officers …
Mr Chilangwa: On a point of order, Sir.
The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.
Mr Chilangwa: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Member of Parliament for Luena who is on the Floor of this House in order to continue lamenting without indicating to you that she has exhausted her points.
I seek your serious ruling.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
She is in order to continue debating because her body language suggests that she is about to finish.
Please, continue.
Laughter
Ms Imenda: Mr Speaker, I was talking about providing us with discs to be stuck on the windscreen. This is not something new. It is happening in other parts of Africa, especially, in Kenya.
Interruptions
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
Allow the lady to continue, please.
Ms Imenda: Mr Speaker, as regards the issue of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), I am suggesting that it should be categorised according to certain factors like poverty index and rural and urban factors. This is happening in other parts of Africa. Hon. Members of Parliament from rural areas should not get the same CDF as hon. Members from urban areas. This is because everything that hon. Members of Parliament in urban areas have is first class. For example, the hon. Member of Parliament for Lusaka Central has first class schools, hospitals, tarred roads and so on. Hon. Members of Parliament from rural areas have so many needs, but they are given the same amount and are expected to develop the constituency. No wonder the gap between urban and rural constituencies is growing.
Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!
Ms Imenda: Sir, my final point is on the issue of per diem. Though our sitting allowance was marginally increased, the per diem has remained static. I, therefore, suggest that the per diem should also be increased. Alternatively, I would like to suggest …
Interruptions
The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Order!
Ms Imenda: … that when hon. Members of Parliament travel using this meagre per diem, they should continue receiving sitting allowances, if the House is sitting.
With those few words, I support the Motion.
I thank you, Sir.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
The Minister of Home Affairs (Dr Simbyakula): Mr Speaker, at the outset, I wish to commend your Committee for the brilliant report and the mover, Hon. Katuka, and the seconder, Hon. Bwalya, for their eloquent address to this House. By the same token, let me also commend all the hon. Members who have contributed to the Motion on the Floor.
Sir, the question of Parliamentary Reforms and Modernisation of this august House is not a partisan issue as it deals with issues that affect the performance of the Legislative Arm of the Government. I am sure all of us, both on your left and right are in full agreement that the issues that have been conversed in your Committee’s report aim at not only improving the work of Parliament, but bringing Parliament closer to our masters, the Zambians.
Mr Speaker, with that being the case, we, on your right hand side, are more than ready to work with the whole House in coming up with meaningful reforms and modernisation that will add value and enhance the contribution of this House towards making a better Zambia for all.
Sir, I just want to allude to what Hon. Mwiimbu lamented on the perceived lack of interaction between the leadership of this House and hon. Members of Parliament.
Sir, I actually beg to differ with Hon. Mwiimbu. Contrary to what he said, and in all fairness to the sitting Speaker of this House, Hon. Justice Dr Matibini has attended all the three funerals of our late colleagues. He attended the funeral of the late Hon. George Kunda, who was my former classmate, the funeral of Hon. Sakeni and the funeral of Hon. Dr Chikusu.
Sir, in addition, the Hon. Justice Dr Matibini is a member of the Parliamentarian’s football team. He is a skipper who plays Number 8.
Laughter
Mr Muntanga: That is why you lost.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Dr Simbyakula: We have been to Malawi and Livingstone with him. The Hon. Deputy Chairperson of Committees of the Whole House is a midfielder.
Mr Mwiimbu: No wonder.
Laughter
Dr Simbyakula: We were with him in Malawi last year in March, he was on the bench when the Malawian Parliamentarians came here and he was also on the bench when we were in Livingstone.
Laughter
The Deputy Chairperson: I hope that is the reason why we lost. Neymar did not play.
Laughter
Dr Simbyakula: Mr Speaker, the leadership of this House, including the Clerk of the National Assembly who plays netball, interacts with us socially. In fact, I think this is the first Hon. Mr Speaker in the history of this Parliament who has played football with the rest of us.
Mr Speaker, in conclusion, members of the Executive have taken note of these very valuable recommendations on the report. Let me reiterate that we will work together to improve the effectiveness of this House.
I thank you, Sir.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Katuka: Mr Speaker, in winding up the debate, I would like to thank all the hon. Members who have contributed to this Motion. I know that many more would have debated this Motion if time had allowed, but I am happy that they have overwhelmingly supported this report. I assure you that the Committee will look at all the issues that have been raised.
I thank you, Sir.
Question put and agreed to.
ADJOURNMENT
The Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication and Chief Whip (Mr Mukanga): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.
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The House adjourned at 1933 hours until 1430 hours on Wednesday, 16th July, 2014.