Debates - Friday, 17th October, 2014

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Friday, 17th October, 2014

The House met at 0900 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]




The Vice-President (Dr Scott): Mr Speaker, I rise to give the House an outline of the business it will consider next week.

Sir, on Tuesday, 21st October, 2014, the Business of the House will commence with Questions to hon. Ministers and this will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Then, the House will continue with the debate on the Motion of Supply. 

Mr Speaker, on Wednesday, 22nd October, 2014, the Business of the House will begin with Questions to hon. Ministers. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will consider the Private Member’s Motion, entitled, “Lift the Wage Freeze Imposed on the Public Service” which will be moved by the Member of Parliament for Choma Central Parliamentary Constituency, Hon. C. Mweetwa. The House will, then, continue with the debate on the Motion of Supply.

Sir, on Thursday, 23rd October, 2014, the Business of the House will commence with Questions to hon. Ministers. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will continue, further, with the debate on the Motion of Supply. 

Of course, Friday is a public holiday and there will be no meeting.

I thank you, Sir.



Mr Speaker: I will now give His Honour the Vice-President an opportunity, again, to clarify some matters.

The Vice-President (Dr Scott): Mr Speaker, there were two issues which were left hanging because I did not have the information, two weeks ago. However, I indicated to the House that I would return to deal with them. 

The first issue is the roll-out of toll gates, countrywide, to raise funds for maintenance of roads. This question was raised by Hon. Mutale, Member of Parliament for Kwacha Constituency. The second issue was on what this Government was doing to protect workers of Sable Zinc in Kabwe, which was raised by Hon. Kunda, Member of Parliament for Muchinga Constituency.

Mr Speaker, as regards the first matter of the toll gates, I wish to inform the House that in March, 2011, the Toll Act No. 14 of 2011 was enacted to provide for the establishment and operationalisation of toll roads in Zambia. The Government, through Toll Act No. 14, appointed the Road Development Agency (RDA) as the toll authority for the designed construction, safety regulation and operation and maintenance of toll roads and collection of toll fees. The principal objective of the Toll Act was to introduce the road-user-pay principle as an innovative and self-financing mechanism for sustainable road rehabilitation and maintenance.

Mr Speaker, the Government of the Republic of Zambia (GRZ), through the RDA, has embarked on a programme which is called the National Tolling Programme which is being implemented in phases. 

Phase I was launched at the beginning of November, 2013. It provides for the collection of tolls from Heavy Goods Vehicles (HGVs), above 6.5 tonnes, at existing weigh bridges and the collection of tolls from foreign registered vehicles at existing ports of entry. The tolls at the weigh bridge are being collected by the RDA directly, while those at ports of entry are being collected through the Road Transport and Safety Agency (RTSA).

Sir, Table 1, which I will lay on the Table, shows the current road tolling collection points in Zambia. There are eight weigh bridges and eighteen ports of entry, totaling twenty-six points. The toll fees collected to date are itemised in this table which, I am sure, hon. Members do not wish to hear me drawling on for too long.

Mr Speaker, the toll fees collected from toll sites since 1st January, 2014, until 31st August, 2014, that is to say, the last eight months, is K187 million plus some small change. This is about US$30 million in eight months. So, it is not a trivial quantity. It is a very significant contribution to the maintenance of road works. The toll fees that have been collected since the programme began on the 1st of November, 2013 stand at K232 million. So, things are definitely working and the prediction some people made that it was going to be a very trivial amount of money to find itself in the public coffers, are not coming true.

Sir, Phase II of the National Tolling Programme will involve the construction of toll plazas at selected points of the core road network and twenty-six tolling points have been identified countrywide. The RDA has since completed the designs of the toll plazas. The Government, through the RDA, is currently in the process of engaging contractors to carry out the construction of the first nine plazas at selected locations. The RDA is also expected to procure the contractors to undertake the works by the end of November, 2014. The nine plazas to be constructed are:

(a)    Choma Tolling Point;

(b)    Manyumbi Tolling Point;

(c)    Kafulafuta Tolling Point;

(d)    Mwanawasa Tolling Point;

(e)    Kamfinsa Tolling Point;

(f)    Ganerton Tolling Point;

(g)    Zambia National Service (ZNS) Tolling Point;

(h)    Shimabala Tolling Point; and

(i)    Katuba Tolling Point.

Sir, the construction of the toll plazas is expected to commence by 31st December, 2014, and be completed by 30th September, 2015. However, while the construction of these toll plazas is underway, the RDA plans to start tolling all the different vehicle classifications by the 31st of January, 2015, by installing simple booths at the selected nine locations. This means that vehicles below 6.5 tonnes will now be captured under this programme. The tender process for the simple booths has commenced and their installation is expected to be completed by 31st January, 2015. I hope that it is not too comprehensive, but I think it shows that there is a programme and the actual details are available for the hon. Members to have a look at.

Mr Speaker, regarding the second question on what the Government is doing to protect workers at Sable Zinc in Kabwe, which was raised by Hon. Kunda, I wish to inform the House that the Government is mandated to protect workers’ rights by ensuring that the provisions of the labour legislation are adhered to. The Employment Act Cap. 268, more specifically Section 26(b) of the Act, makes adequate provisions to cover redundancies that may occur.

Sir, on 16th September, 2014, Sable Zinc Kabwe Limited notified the Labour Commissioner in the Ministry of Labour and Social Security that the operations at its mineral processing plant were in the process of being placed under care and maintenance and as such, 170 jobs would be declared redundant on or after 16th November, 2014, when the statutory notice of sixty days elapsed.

Mr Speaker, while we appreciate that the notification is within the law, there are certain circumstances which would warrant any company to undertake the redundancy exercise. In our view, we are not satisfied with the reasons advanced by the company. We are, therefore, reluctant to endorse the redundancy exercise. Job losses are against the Government’s policy and it is our understanding that the issue of the enforcement of Rule 18 (1) (b) on refundable Value Added Tax (VAT) affects all mining houses and not just Sable Zinc Kabwe Limited. 

Mr Speaker, 20,000 jobs at Mopani Copper Mines Plc were also reported as being at risk, owing to the enforcement of Rule 18 on refundable VAT. However, the mining house has assured the nation that the jobs are safe because it believes and trusts that its representatives and the Government will expeditiously and amicably resolve the issue. 

Sir, the Government would like to take this opportunity to laud Mopani Copper Mines Plc for clarifying that the 20,000 jobs are safe and entrusting the Government and the mining houses’ representatives to amicably resolve the issue of the refunds.

Mr Speaker, it is against the foregoing and the recognition that Mopani Copper Mines Plc and Sable Zinc Kabwe Limited are subsidiary companies of Glencore that the Government is not able to give a go ahead to Sable Zinc Kabwe Limited to effect the redundancies. We believe that the reasons advanced by Sable Zinc Limited for the redundancies are not justifiable and, therefore, need to be investigated further. The Government has advised the stakeholders in the mining industry to dialogue with the view to coming up with a viable solution other than redundancies. 

Sir, laying off 170 workers is quite significant for a town the size of Kabwe that has been on its economic recovery trajectory only recently. Coupled with this is the Government’s pro-poor policy which, inter alia, includes job creation and sustenance of the jobs created. Therefore, the Government is concerned that this action might have negative trickle down effects on the town and has stepped in to ensure that the matter is resolved amicably. 

Mr Speaker, at an appropriate time, the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security will issue a comprehensive statement when stakeholder consultations have been exhausted.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Musokotwane (Liuwa): Mr Speaker, Liuwa National Park is one of the greatest assets that the Western Province and, indeed, Kalabo have. We thank the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) Government, first under President Mwanawasa, SC., and then under President Banda, for organising funds for the Mongu/Kalabo Road. 

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, when does this Government hope to construct a road from inside the park in Kalabo so that the local people can benefit from it and the tourism industry also picks up?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, perhaps, the hon. Minister could care to contact former President Banda and ask him that question. If we are going to give all the compliments to people who have gone before us and disappeared, then, what about all the shortcomings? Were they not part of the previous Government’s performance sheet or lack of performance sheet?

Sir, as the questioner is fully aware, if he had let me have that question two days ago, I would have given him an answer because I would have known it. As it happens, he may have to wait two weeks for clarification.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Pande (Kasempa): Mr Speaker, the Patriotic Front (PF) Government, through His Honour the Vice-President, had indicated on the Floor of this House that civil servants are not supposed to be openly or actively involved in politics. However, during the last by-elections, we saw District Commissioners (DCs), who are considered to be civil servants, actively involved in election campaigns. In Solwezi, one of the DCs was even dancing on top of a truck.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Pande: Can His Honour the Vice-President tell us whether the DCs are no longer civil servants and are now politicians so that we actively involve them in politics.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I do not know the significance of dancing on top of a truck without …


Mr Speaker: Order!

The Vice-President: … the registration number of the truck or the type of music to which he was dancing.


The Vice-President: An anonymous individual is being alleged to have been dancing on top of an unnumbered truck. If there is any genuine concern on the questioner’s behalf, I would urge him to write to me specifying the actual details of this partisan behaviour so that I can deal with it.

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Bwalya (Lupososhi): Mr Speaker, the rainy season is almost here and the people of Luwingu District are concerned because they have not yet been paid for the maize that they sold to the Food Reserve Agency (FRA).

Sir, may His Honour the Vice-President assure the farmers in Luwingu District that they will be paid before the rainy season deepens so that they can pay for their Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP) fertiliser?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, …


Mr Speaker: Order!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I do not think I can give a guarantee …

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

The Vice-President: … of anything to do with the funding of maize. The fact is that, this year, there has been a maize surplus not just in Zambia, but also in the region. We are, therefore, in the situation that happens to all agriculture industries and farmers everywhere that some years you over produce and some years you under produce. We are still in October and I would like the Opposition to take note of that. Normally, this business of paying for maize in surplus years continues right into January.

Mr Shakafuswa: Aah!

The Vice-President: We are in October, right now, which is not even four months away from the opening of the Food Reserve Agency (FRA) depots.

Sir, I know that there are some people with difficulties in terms of adding or coming up with the difference between two dates …


The Vice-President: … and I can see that the hon. Member for Katuba is still puzzled about what I am saying …


Mr Speaker: Order!

His Honour the Vice-President, just give me a moment. 

The Vice-President resumed his seat.

Mr Speaker: Let us have some order. The manner in which questions are – I am now speaking generally – couched has a bearing on how they are answered. However, whatever the case, let us have plain questions and plain and direct answers. 

His Honour the Vice-President may continue.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shakafuswa: Thank you very much. 

The Vice-President: In detail, the current free market trading price of maize in this region or Zambia and its surrounding countries is around K45 per 50kg bag. What the Government is paying to farmers at the farm gate is K70 per 50kg bag. If you add the transport and initial storage cost, it comes to something more like K90 per 50kg bag. The Government is paying almost double that which the market is paying and that is why this problem has arisen. However, the Government is fighting this problem. Unfortunately, the price of copper is a bit low. Therefore, it is not as if we are exactly flush with cash, but we will do everything we can to capture and ensure that people get paid money as soon as possible. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Simbao (Senga Hill): Mr Speaker, I must admit that I enjoy the humour that His Honour the Vice-President attaches to his answers. I am aware that The Zambian Watchdog, which is an online publication, has drawn a huge Zambian following. Going by the comments by His Honour the Vice-President, I am sure that he is an ardent follower of The Zambian Watchdog. How does he rate its reporting?


The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the problem is that there is no accountability as regard this publication. If I wanted to take a different view from The Daily Nation Newspaper, I can, at least, write to it and, if necessary, sue because I know where to find it. The Zambian Watchdog has no home. 


The Vice-President: Sir, it is a dog or a watch jackal with no house and it can basically write whatever it wants. 

Mr Mukanga: We do not care!

The Vice-President: Sir, it is interesting, if you are in the mood, to study the pathology of some of the stories it makes up. I also wonder who is spending good money from their pocket on this − I hesitate to use words such as “satanic” because that is The Zambian Watchdog’s language, but it is grossly inferior stuff which has had a lot to do with the poor relationships between politicians and parties in the last three years. It is not doing anybody any good, not even the people who, sometimes, stand up to praise it on the other side (left). It is a watch jackal and, sometimes, it is worthy entertainment, but I would say that if it suffered from suicide tomorrow, we would all be very happy.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwila (Chipili): Mr Speaker, the Government has imposed the wage freeze on the Public Service workers. Do we see any review on that decision in that the standard practice, in terms of bargaining, is that you meet annually? Do you not expect any spill over to the private sector also imposing the wage freeze? Can His Honour the Vice-President clarify that matter.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the situation is made a bit tricky by two things. The first one is that there are discussions going on between the Public Service unions and the Government at the Cabinet Office. This rather puts me in a position where if I say anything too strongly, it might be regarded as prejudicial. In fact, they have actually declared a dispute and things to look at this issue are proceeding in a very orderly fashion. Furthermore, when I read the Business of the House for next week, I mentioned that there is a Motion coming that we should lift this wage freeze. That is going to take up an hour or two’s time of the House in verifying details. I think I would rather leave this issue to sort itself out through the channels that I have just mentioned.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muchima (Ikeleng’i): Mr Speaker, with the much-pronounced massive projects going on in the country and the financial crisis this Government is facing, how does it expect to complete Phase I and Phase II of construction works with the statement that no new contracts will be signed, and yet in the North-Western Province, we are waiting for Phase II? In Phase I, we were left out. How does the Government expect our roads to be worked on?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the Government is not going through a financial crisis. That question is a little like, “Have you stopped beating your wife yet?”…


The Vice-President: … and you have to explain that you did not start beating up your wife in the first place. The issue of a financial crisis does not arise. In my understanding, the moratorium on the issuance of new contracts is just a management and house-keeping arrangement. We are not stopping the programme and the development of Zambia. We just want to sort out a few things that have come to our attention, which may count as irregularities and need to be sorted out. That is all.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Hamudulu (Siavonga): Mr Speaker, can His Honour the Vice-President clarify the issue surrounding the national airline. We hear that there is a Cabinet memorandum that suggests that there will be no national airline. What is the position of the Patriotic Front (PF) Government regarding this national airline? 

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the matter is in the pipeline and it will not be at the same position until the Cabinet has ruled that yes, it is going ahead on the following basis or it is not. So, while it is still in the melting pot, so to speak, there is very little useful information that I can give.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mushanga (Bwacha): Mr Speaker, you may recall that I have been posing a question on the Floor of the House regarding Zambia’s Golden Jubilee. His Honour the Vice-President promised this House and the nation that he would come to this House with a statement so that we could be updated on how far we have gone with the preparations of this celebration. To date, His Honour the Vice-President has not come with a statement to this House. Where are we in terms of preparations of this celebration especially that the event will be on Friday, next week?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I am anticipating giving a detailed and accurate account of where we are regarding the celebrations on Tuesday. The reason I did not give it yesterday, which is when I had originally hoped to give it, is that I was still looking for the information concerning hon. Members of Parliament, in particular,  that is how much worth their very important persons (VIPs) status is, their sitting, ticketing and guest arrangements. I am hoping to come with that and, also, a precise list of who we are expecting to honour us as Heads of State and Government and other representatives of foreign bodies. I do not think we have to decide anything in Parliament. The urgency of saying it early seems to be outweighed by the importance of getting accurate instructions or information to hon. Members.

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Speaker, I now understand why the dog is following the Patriotic Front (PF) cadre in the picture on the outer cover page of the Budget Speech. It is because of The Zambian Watchdog. 


Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, His Honour the Vice-President said that it is not possible to tell when the payment to farmers will be made. He has also gone on to mention the difficulties of the market values. Has the Government requested the banks for loans to pay off the farmers who delivered their produce instead of saying that they will not be paid and go back to the 1991 era when farmers were given promissory notes?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I am not aware of any plan to replicate the promissory notes.  There were no promissory notes in 1991. There was actually a failure of the crop and we were running out of stock. 

Sir, in 1992, the crop failed and there was no problem of promissory notes. In 1993, the bumper harvest bounced back from the 1992 drought and that is when this issue of promissory notes came up. I was not the hon. Minister then, thank you, sir.


The Vice-President: By that time, I had been sent into retirement to contemplate the problem of the pricing of maize. I do not think there is any danger of going back to endless promissory notes. We are trying to do some innovative things with collateral management, but that will undoubtedly end with having to borrow the money to buy the maize and, then, trying to get the money back from exports at a more suitable time.

 However, that is one reason it is time, in this House, that we met and took some non-political attitude towards some of the biggest problems that are biting us. We wasted K33.2 trillion in 2012 on a situation that we inherited. We could have used that money to provide free education for everybody in Zambia. We cannot do that if, at the same time, we are behaving like the Soviet Union when it comes to grain marketing. I am very open to any constructive attitudes and if we can de-politicise this particular cancer that we have always had troubling us, I think, we will make some progress or we can all go and be pleased with ourselves, whoever wins whatever election.


I thank you, Sir.

Mr Musonda (Kapiri Mposhi): Mr Speaker, on 2nd October, 2014, there was a report in the Times of Zambia Newspaper that, according to the Ibrahim Index on African Governance, Zambia is ranked thirteenth out of fifty-two countries, which is very good.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Musonda: However, the Opposition has a contrary view. I would like His Honour the Vice-President to reconcile the two positions.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order! 

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I think the Mo Ibrahim Foundation and its ratings are very accurate. I am sorry that we are only number thirteen. I would rather we were number five or even number one.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: However, at the same time, people who are putting forward stories …

Ms Kalima: We are number fifty-three.

The Vice-President: … like loose dogs that we are number fifty-three out of fifty-two …


The Vice-President: … is something that can be said as ignoring what you can see in many other African countries.

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member for Kasenengwa, you are very far, but very loud.

Continue, His Honour the Vice-President.

The Vice-President: Sir, if you took an interest in what goes on in some African countries, I think, you would be horrified. 

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mtolo (Chipata Central): Sir, may His Honour the Vice-President inform the nation on what the Government is doing to reduce the suffering that the workers at the Zambia Wildlife Authority (ZAWA) are going through.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I do not know how much is exactly in the mill and how much is decided, but the general tendency in the moves that we are making is to bring ZAWA back as a department of the Government and honour the various implications that that has. The problem is that ZAWA was the creation of one man at the European Union (EU) who wanted to put money into wildlife conservation in the late 1990s. One of the conditions which donors often put is that a separate body be created. They think that it is more efficient to have an authority and the example they always give is that of the Zambia Revenue Authority. On that basis, new authorities are formed.

Mr Speaker, this House was basically pressurised into bringing the Wildlife Act of 1998, which created ZAWA, into being. Then, the man who had made all this happen left to go somewhere else for three years. The people who succeeded him at the EU had no interest in the wildlife aspect. This is typical of how development gets skewed by donors and local people who do not stand up to that kind of pressure. So, they created ZAWA which is a huge carbuncle on the governance system. It owes a lot of money. The statutory debts are tens of millions of dollars and we have to get it right. It is one area in which we, in Zambia, can create a lot of employment and make money if we knew what we were doing and played it properly. Therefore, we are not neglecting this matter.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chipungu (Rufunsa): Mr Speaker, in our effort to develop our constituencies, we need money.

Mr Mwale: Hear, hear!

Mr Chipungu: Such money which is readily available is the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). The CDF for Rufunsa for 2013 is still missing …

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Chipungu: … and the people of Rufunsa are complaining because the developmental projects have stalled. Can His Honour the Vice-President state when the Government will replace this money because the people of Rufunsa are suffering.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, there are two possible responses to that issue. One is that I can give a more detailed answer during the next His Honour the Vice-President’s Question Time. However, the other possibility would be for the hon. Minister to issue a statement on the past, present and future of the CDF …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: … after consultation, of course, with the hon. Minister of Finance. This is too broad a question for me to just concoct an answer on the hoof right now.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwezi): Mr Speaker, a truck driver was found dead yesterday in Choma and by press time, the remains of the deceased were still lying in his truck because there were fears that he could have died of Ebola. What is the Government doing to investigate the cause of death of that driver because there is panic in Choma and the surrounding communities?


The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the Ministry of Health has already dispatched people to investigate this incident. I will take this opportunity to urge us, in Zambia, to remain cool over the Ebola panic that has hit some countries. We do not have a single certified instance in Zambia of anybody having Ebola or having died of Ebola. Knowing the routes that the planes take, we are actually quite a long way. We may be only 2,000 km from Liberia, but to get from Liberia to Zambia involves flying to Europe, Johannesburg and, then, flying to Zambia. So, we are actually quite isolated by inadequate air infrastructure and, of course, the road infrastructure such that to drive from Liberia to Zambia would take about six months …


The Vice-President: … and you would have to replace your vehicle twice. 


The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, as long we are alert, we trust our professionals and take the necessary steps, we will be fine. However, we do not want to panic, we do not want rumours and we do not want your favourite ‘kennelless’ dog to get involved in this.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lufuma (Kabompo West): Mr Speaker, I would like to remain cool, calm and collected. However, I have a challenge. Can His Honour the Vice-President confirm to this House and the nation as a whole that the PF Government has completely failed to deliver the Constitution and that the Constitution-making process has stalled because the Government is no longer interested, as being interested would be inimical to their continued existence in the Government?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the Vice-President is not here to confirm things. He is here to clarify things …

Mr Livune: Question!

The Vice-President: … and make sure that proper channels are followed. So, the proper channel − it so happens that Hon. Chikwanda has chosen to be the hon. Minister of Justice today because he is sitting in the seat of the hon. Minister of Justice next to me, and he has whispered into my ear – is to issue a statement to Parliament, in the next few days, which is what he should do. So, remain cool, calm, and collected.


The Vice-President: Do not do too much barking yourself.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Antonio (Kaoma Central): Mr Speaker, over 8,000 Government workers were retired in 1997 and 1998. They took the Government to court, which passed judgement in their favour. So, when is this Government going to pay these people their dues in the name of long service bonus, leave days, repatriation fees and the loss of salaries?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, my high speed research has not worked.


The Vice-President: So, I will have to do low speed research and come back with the answers to that question. I just do not have anything to add on to that.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Imenda (Luena): Mr Speaker, may His Honour the Vice-President explain to this House and the nation at large who pays for the costs of his helicopter travels during campaigns, like what happened in Mangango because, certainly, it is not Government business, but party business.

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Speaker: Order!

Always transact business orderly.

The Vice-President:  Mr Speaker, it is paid for by the State, through my office.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Katambo (Masaiti): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out why the PF Government spent so much money on Commissions of Inquiry without releasing their results or outcomes.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Speaker: Order!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the point of a Commission of Inquiry is to advise or apprise yourself better on what is happening on the subject that you have appointed the commission to investigate. It is not just for public consumption.

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

The Vice-President: It is so that we can be more knowledgeable, sensible and intelligent in the way that we govern the country like we are at the moment.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!




Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central) asked the Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education:

(a)    why the Government had asked schools countrywide, which were in financial difficulties, to contribute K300 each towards the commemoration of Zambia’s fifty years of independence; and

(b)    what the rationale for the request was.

The Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education (Dr Phiri): Mr Speaker, I want to categorically state that the Government has not asked any school in the country to contribute K300 towards the commemoration of Zambia’s fifty years of independence. It has never been, it is not and will not be Government policy to request schools to contribute towards hosting national events such as the Golden Jubilee Event.

Sir, there is, therefore, no rationale to talk about because no such directive has been issued by the ministry.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister’s answer is clearly a manifestation of the fact that things are happening under his nose and he is unaware. 

Sir, this question came in form of a point of order and you asked …

Dr Phiri: On a point of order, Sir.


Mr Nkombo: … me to put in a Question of urgent nature, and at the time when I raised a point of order, …

Mr Speaker: Order!

Hon. Minister, just wait for the question.

Mr Nkombo: … I actually laid a document on the Table which has a Government letter head and written by the District Commissioner for Chilanga. Clearly, the hon. Minister has demonstrated that he is unaware of what is going on under his nose. Can he, therefore, confirm that there is an element of failure to supervise, which could even be translated as incompetence, to allow the District Education Boards (DEBS) countrywide to ask for money from schools which do not receive grants from his ministry. That has happened in my constituency too.

Dr Phiri: Mr Speaker, I have to restrain myself because …

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!


Mr Speaker: Order!

Let us have order.

Dr Phiri: … as much as we appreciate Hon. Nkombo’s interest in the affairs of education, it does not give him the liberty to degrade those of us who are in the leadership of the ministry.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Phiri: He asked a very clear question to which I have given a very plain answer that it is not Government policy to ask schools to contribute towards national events. We have gone further to investigate this issue and consulted the Provincial Education Officer (PEO) for the Southern Province and the DEBS for Mazabuka. Both have confirmed that no such request or directive has been received or made. 

Mr Speaker, I am surprised that he is now accusing our leadership of not supervising correctly. If the PEO and the DEBS are the ones the structures allowed us to consult, who else should we consult? If there is any evidence to the contrary, let the hon. Member table it before the ministry so that it helps us investigate this matter even further so that we show authority, which he claims we have lost. Let him help us with evidence that suggests that, to the contrary, we issued the directive that this thing be done.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Belemu (Mbabala): Mr Speaker, there is clear evidence in Chilanga and at an appropriate time, we can lay it on the Table. However, in view of what the hon. Minister has said, is he going to issue a written directive to the various DEBS and PEOs to ignore the letters that are coming from the offices of the District Commissioners (DCs) in our districts?

Dr Phiri: Mr Speaker, we have nothing to work on for us to do that. If that purported letter is coming from the Office of the DC, there are specific channels which we can use. However, we need evidence, and I do not have a copy of that letter. The DC did not write to the hon. Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education. Now that, through your very investigative eyes, you have that document, let us have it so that, using the Secretary to the Cabinet, we can deal with this issue.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Let me try and put this seemingly straight forward matter to rest. This letter was tabled and so, we will forward it to the hon. Minister. 

Let us proceed with further questions.

Mr L. J. Ngoma (Sinda): Mr Speaker, you have just indicated that the letter was laid on the Table, …

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member, before you proceed, I hope you are not going over the same tracks that I have made because I have said, …

Mr L. J. Ngoma: Sir, it is a very …

Mr Speaker: wait, sit down.

Mr L. J. Ngoma remained standing.

Mr Speaker: I said sit down.

Mr L. J.Ngoma resumed his seat.

Mr Speaker: I have made this indication in order for us not to dwell on this issue. Make up a follow up question, but do not dwell on this issue. 

You may continue.

Mr L. J. Ngoma: Sir, a letter was tabled and you are privy to it. What is your message over such a directive coming through the DCs offices?

Dr Phiri: Mr Speaker, I am grateful that you have guided that that communication will be presented to the ministry and, using that, we will engage the Secretary to the Cabinet, who is in charge of the civil servants, to which cadre the DC belongs, and then we will resolve the matter at that stage by communicating what will be discussed.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muchima (Ikeleng’i): Mr Speaker, arising from the allegation that there could be some underhand charge placed on our poor people which could inhibit them from accessing education, could you clarify to the nation at what level education is free in this country? Is it from Grade 1 to university level?

Mr Speaker: We are now dealing with supplementary questions to the question raised by the hon. Member for Mazabuka Central Parliamentary Constituency.

Dr Musokotwane (Liuwa): Mr Speaker, now that the hon. Minister has said there was no order by the Government requesting pupils and parents to contribute towards independence celebrations, I would like to know what the Government is doing to support those rural schools, such as those in Liuwa, to enable them to enjoy themselves on Independence Day, as I did in October, 1964, when I was in Grade 2.

Dr Phiri: Mr Speaker, when we celebrated independence in 1964, there was no directive, I believe, from the Minister of Education, at that time, to the lowest ranks. What is followed is the structure of a ministry. At the top, there is a Permanent Secretary, who is in charge of policy implementation. Below the Permanent Secretary, there are the PEOs and below them are DEBS who are in charge of the various head teachers and teachers in that order. Therefore, the system is self-sustaining, and they make decisions at those levels. 

So, at Liuwa level, you have a DEBS and I know that the board secretary is already working out mechanisms of how schools will celebrate this Golden Jubilee. If not, the hon. Member of Parliament has every obligation to help, if he can, because these schools are in your constituencies. So, if you have the means, you can chip in and the people will be very happy to receive your gift.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.


188. Mr Mwila (Chipili) asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing:

(a)    when the implementation of the Markets and Bus Stations Act No. 7 of 2007 would commence;

(b)    what challenges, if any, the Government had faced in implementing the Act; and

(c)    whether the Government had any plans to review the Act.

The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr Kufuna): Mr Speaker, the Markets and Bus Stations Act No. 7 of 2007 is already in force and being implemented. All local authorities, being the delegated institutions, develop and manage markets and bus stations in enforcing the provisions of the Act in so far as the markets and bus stations are concerned.

Sir, the interference of political players in markets and bus stations has been a major challenge, although this is only in markets and bus stations along the line of rail and other bigger cities. In the rest of the districts, the Act is being implemented without problems.

Mr Speaker, the Government is continuously reviewing and amending laws and regulations for delivery. Therefore, at an opportune time, when the need arises, the Market and Bus Stations Act No. 7 of 2007 shall be reviewed.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwila: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has said that the ministry has done something in as far as implementing this Act is concerned. Could he state what the ministry has exactly done to implement this Act.

The Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr Chenda): Mr Speaker, I really do not understand what the hon. Member of Parliament for Chipili Parliamentary Constituency wants to be clarified because as things stand now, the markets are being run by local authorities. That is what is prescribed in the Markets and Bus Stations Act No. 7 of 2007. So, we are implementing the provisions of the law and it is the responsibility of the councils to run these markets and bus stations, and the councils are doing that in accordance with the law.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Speaker, yesterday when there was a question concerning the behaviour of party cadres in markets, the hon. Minister asked us to help resolve this issue. What help does he want from us when he has said that these markets and bus stations are being run by the local authorities and he knows that the party cadres are disobeying that particular Act?

Mr Chenda: Mr Speaker, when we discussed the issues of street vending, there were serious allegations that there were some parallel structures which were collecting money at bus stations, and I said that, as the Government, we do not have official information to that effect, and that if any of the hon. Members of Parliament had evidence to that effect, it would help us greatly to investigate the matter so that we could deal with it effectively.

Sir, political interference in markets is a known fact to everybody here, but we are working on this issue. Hon. Members may not be seeing what we are doing, but we are working like a duck on water. It may seem cool on top of the water, but the feet are busy paddling to ensure that the duck stays afloat.

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, at the expense of the hon. Minister feeling that we are harping on this matter for too long, I would like to congratulate Hon. Davies Mwila for bringing this matter back on the Order Paper because we are interested in helping the hon. Minister bring sanity in this area.

Sir, anybody looking at the hon. Minister’s answer to Hon. Mwila’s question from the surface would imagine that the Act is being followed to the letter, when the opposite is the case. We have shown willingness to hold the bull by its horns in assisting our colleagues in the Patriotic Front (PF), who made lofty statements that their members were starved and the levels of poverty were too high and, therefore, they were going to allow them to trade anywhere. 

Sir, they do not need evidence to know the situation that has been created. People are even defecating in chibuku packs in the heart of the city. What sort of help would Hon. Chenda like us to engage in so that we can begin responding to Hon. Mwila’s question on what practical steps we have taken in order to bring sanity at bus stops and markets?

Mr Chenda: Sir, as members of the community, hon. Members of Parliament are expected to also sensitise the people on the need to desist from buying from street vendors. On our part as a Government, we are doing everything possible to deal with this issue. Those who have driven on Lumumba Road recently have seen that the council is preparing some ground there. We intend to move the street vendors from certain parts of the city, like Cairo and Chachacha roads, into that place so that we handle this situation. 

Mr Speaker, that is just the beginning because this process is a journey. The old Chinese adage says that even the longest journey starts with one step. So, we have begun taking the steps to ensure that this matter is addressed effectively. 

This is not an easy problem to solve. It is difficult and, therefore, it calls for concerted efforts from all the citizenry to ensure that people comply with the provisions of the law. Members of the public also have to be persuaded to go back to the good old practices where people went to buy their merchandise from the markets other than now when every street corner of the city is a trading place.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: Let me just indicate a general management point from where I am sitting. We are not doing very well with the debate on the Budget Speech. The statistics are very poor. So, we will have to hasten our business so that by close of business, we have a lot more people debating. I know these are very topical and touching issues, but we equally need to move our agenda on the Budget debate. I have to exercise a balancing act.

Mr Muchima: Mr Speaker, arising from the answer …

Mr Mweetwa: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing has come to this House, without prior announcement of a policy shift by the PF to this House and the nation at large, and has asked hon. Members to join in sensitising members of the public to stop buying from the streets. 

It is a policy position of the PF Government, as announced by the then Minister of Local Government and Housing, Hon. Kabanshi, on the Floor of this House that street vending is now legalised as street trading. Is he in order to be oblivious about his predecessor’s policy position, which he has not come here to change? I need your ruling, Sir.

Mr Speaker: My ruling is that as the hon. Minister continues responding to questions, please, attend to that matter raised in the point of order.

May the hon. Member for Ikeleng’i continue.

Mr Muchima: Mr Speaker, according to the answer given by the hon. Minister, there is political interference in markets, especially in urban areas and, therefore, it has become very difficult to establish market boards. However, we have previously heard that in some areas, these boards are working. Which areas are these and who is perpetuating political interference in markets? Is it the PF, United Party for National Development (UPND) or Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD)? I would like the hon. Minister to clarify.

Mr Chenda: Sir, let me begin by clarifying the issue that was raised in the point of order by the hon. Member of Parliament for Choma Central. The PF Government’s policy is to be a government of laws and not of men. So, the law which guides the operations of markets is in place and that is what we are going to follow.

Sir, coming to the question that was raised by the hon. Member of Parliament for Mwinilunga …

Mr Muchima: It is Ikeleng’i.

Mr Chenda: … Ikeleng’i, I beg your pardon. I do not know of any market boards that have been created by the ministry. What we have done is to request the councils and local authorities throughout the country to be in total control, as per the provisions of Section 5 of the Markets and Bus Stations Act, in running these markets. So, we have no challenges in that regard. I think the Government’s position is to strengthen the local authorities so that they are able to effectively run these markets in the interest of the public.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr L. J. Ngoma: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out …

Mr Muchima: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Muchima: Mr Speaker, I rarely stand on points of order.

Hon. MMD Members: Yes, that is true.

Mr Muchima: The hon. Minister is contradicting the answer which was read by his hon. Deputy Minister that there are boards which are working in certain places, despite political interference in other markets in urban areas. He is giving us a different position. Is he in order to mislead us? I need your serious ruling.

Mr Speaker: I will give the hon. Minister an opportunity to clarify that issue.

May the hon. Member for Sinda continue.

Mr L. J. Ngoma: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has just indicated that traders on Cairo Road and other streets are going to be shifted. Is this the new position that the PF has taken that traders should not trade on the streets? We need to know so that, as hon. Members of Parliament, we can go out there and guide our councils appropriately.

Mr Chenda: Mr Speaker, let me begin by addressing the point of order that was raised by my brother from Ikeleng’i, manjumi.


Mr Chenda: The hon. Deputy Minister, in his response, read the following answer and I will read it again …

Mr Speaker: Order!

Hon. Minister, you used a word which has not been explained.

Mr Chenda: Sir, it means uncle in Lunda.


Mr Speaker: Okay, let us continue.

Mr Chenda: Mr Speaker, the hon. Deputy Minister in his response to question (b), which I will read again read as follows:

 “The interference of political players in the markets and bus stations has been a major challenge though this is only in markets and bus stations along the line of rail and other bigger cities. In the rest of the districts, the Act is being implemented without any problems.” 

Sir, there was no reference to Market Boards. 

Mr Speaker, we would like to insist that we want to be a Government of laws. Anybody who is trading on the streets is not complying with the provisions of the law. That is our position. In shifting the street vendors to other designated places, which the council has powers to do in accordance with the Markets and Bus Stations Act, and declare those areas as trading places is in compliance with the law.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwezi): Mr Speaker, I want to find out from the hon. Minister whether it is true or not that in the Western Province, the local authorities have no total control on bus stops and markets because the Barotse Royal Establishment (BRE) is also collecting a certain percentage of revenues.

Mr Chenda: Mr Speaker, indeed, we have some challenges in the Western Province, but these are issues that are under discussion and we are resolving them amicably. Therefore, the matter is under control.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Speaker, seven years ago, in 2007, the then Minister of Local Government and Housing, under the Movement for Multi-party Development (MMD), presented a Bill which ended up being the Markets and Bus Stations Act. In presenting that Bill, she presented a preamble in which she stated that the reason for that law was to curb politicisation of markets and bus stations and that the process would be done by establishing boards in markets and bus stations. 

Mr Speaker, listening to the answers by the hon. Minister, one wonders whether that law has achieved its intended purpose, given that there is still politicisation, which has been accepted and acknowledged by the hon. Minister, and boards have not been established.

Sir, could the hon. Minister explain what challenges his ministry is facing in establishing boards in these markets. Is it as a result of politicisation and is this a remnant of seven years ago?

Hon. MMD Members: Aah!

Mr Speaker: He is free to ask questions.

Mr Chenda: Mr Speaker, indeed, I must thank my brother, the hon. Member of Parliament for Kabwata …

Mr Ng’onga: Hear, hear!

Mr Chenda: … for asking that question. We cannot turn a blind eye to the fact that there is serious political interference in these public places. Like I said, we are trying to address these issues. However, the issue of appointment of boards, perhaps, is one that we will continue to defer until we have made these local authorities take full control and are in charge of these markets. 

Mr Speaker, if local authorities such as councils, which are Government agencies and legally- constituted institutions, are facing serious challenges in dealing with these issues on political grounds, how will the boards, which are supposed to be quasi-Government and independent institutions, be able to deal with this political interference? So, our view is that we must strengthen local authorities to take control of the situation so that when we consider devolving to these quasi institutions, the landscape would have been one that is calm and is able to deliver to the expectation of the public.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.


189. Mr Ng’onga (Kaputa) asked the Minister of Mines, Energy and Water Development:

(a)    when electrification of the following areas in Mpulungu Parliamentary Constituency by the Rural Electrification Authority would commence:

(i)    Chitimbwa;
(ii)    Vyamba; and
(iii)    Chinakila; and

(b)    whether the Government had any plans to include public schools and clinics in the electrification programme above.

The Deputy Minister of Mines, Energy and Water Development (Mr Zulu): Mr Speaker, based on the Rural Electrification Master Plan (REMP), Chitimbwa, Vyamba and Chinakila areas will benefit from the Rural Electrification Programme in 2030, in line with their priority setting.


Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Zulu: Prior to the year of electrification, a comprehensive plan shall be invoked to ensure electrification of the said areas.

Mr Speaker, yes, the Government has plans to include Government schools and clinics

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Ng’onga: Mr Speaker, I would like to give the hon. Minister some information. Hon. Minister, these areas in Mpulungu, Chitimbwa, Vyamba and Chinakila have now become the agriculture production centres due to the depleted fish stocks in Lake Tanganyika. Therefore, people on the plateau would want a life that is commensurate with the farming sector. Would you consider revising this time projection of 2030 because I do not know if we will be part of those that will be governing then.

Mr Zulu: Mr Speaker, we are cognisant of the fact that people require power even now. We will look at quick win solutions and this could be renewable energies, such as solar, before 2030.

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mweetwa (Choma): Mr Speaker, in the response by the hon. Deputy Minister, …


Mr Speaker: Order, on my left!

Mr Mweetwa: … he was so emphatic about 2030. In the follow-up question by the honourable Questioner, he has intimated on whether the PF will be part of the governing body then. I would like to find out whether the hon. Minister has an electrification work plan that gives him definiteness for him to tell us about 2030, knowing very well that by then, the PF would have been forgotten as having ever been in the Government …


Mr Mweetwa: … except to be remembered as having been a failed project.

Mr Zulu: Mr Speaker, yes, we have a plan. We have it in soft copy. We can make the copies available. However, if we had to do it in hard copies, it would be very expensive, as a copy would cost about K300 to K400. The Rural Electrification Authority does not have that kind of money. Therefore, to cover all the hon. Members of Parliament here would be costly, but we have it in soft copy and can avail it in that form.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Rev. Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha (Keembe): Mr Speaker, I was wondering whether the hon. Minister has a plan that goes up to 2030 and if we can access it so that we can plan as well. We have to know when we are going to be electrified. Can he allow us to see that plan?

Mr Zulu: Mr Speaker, I have just said that we have a plan which is in soft copy. We can make the copies available next week.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.


190. Mr Katuka (Mwinilunga) asked the Minister of Health:

(a)    how many males, countrywide, had been circumcised from the time the exercise started to August, 2014;

(b)    what the impact of the exercise had been on the health of the nation;

(c)    whether the exercise had helped to slow down the spread of the human immuno-deficiency virus/acquired immuno deficiency syndrome (HIV/AIDS) and, if so, by what percentage points; and

(d)    what the benefits of circumcision were.

The Minister of Health (Dr Kasonde): Mr Speaker, 800,000 males have been circumcised from 2007, when the Male Circumcision Programme started, to August, 2014.

Mr Speaker, a survey is needed to ascertain the impact that the Male Circumcision Programme has had on the health of the nation. In this regard, we are pleased that a recent health survey, which will be available in full within a short period, included observations on this subject.

Sir, male circumcision reduces sexual transmission of the HIV from female to male by 60 per cent. Research evidence that male circumcision is efficacious in reducing sexual transmission of the HIV from women to men is compelling. The partial protective effect of male circumcision is remarkably consistent across many observational studies conducted so far.

Mr Speaker, male circumcision should now be recognised as an efficacious intervention for the HIV prevention. The Male Circumcision Programme has also created a demand for voluntary counselling and testing (VTC) services which have helped in the management of HIV/AIDS in Zambia.

However, Sir, promoting male circumcision should be recognised as an additional important strategy for the prevention of heterosexually-acquired HIV infection in men and does not cover other modes of transmission.

Mr Speaker, a survey is required to ascertain whether the extent to which circumcision has helped to slow down the spread of HIV and the percentage points thereof.

Mr Speaker, the benefits of male circumcision, in addition to what I have described, are as follows:

(a)    it has proven to lower incidences of penile cancer in men;

(b)    women with circumcised partners have proved to have reduced incidence of cervical cancer, according to recent studies carried out in North-Africa, that is, Egypt and Algeria;

(c)    in children and adolescents, male circumcision has proved to be effective in preventing conditions like Phimosis and Paraphimosis, which is the narrowing of the foreskin;

(d)    it also provides partial protection from a wide range of sexually transmitted infections; and

(e)    male circumcision has encouraged more males to test for the HIV as a pre-requisite for male circumcision.

Ms Namugala (Mafinga): Mr Speaker, the health benefits of male circumcision have been well articulated by our health personnel. However, as you probably know, Mafinga is one of the constituencies where the reaction to this campaign has been negative. The reason is that the Government, through the Ministry of Health, is not disclosing the negative effects of male circumcision to the members of the public. Can the hon. Minister, through this House, let us know if there are any negative effects of male circumcision and what they are. The public needs to know whether they are mere myths.

Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, I welcome the information from the hon. Member for Mafinga. This is useful data which, I presume, she has. 


Dr Kasonde: I have to look at two aspects of possible side effects of male circumcision. The first one is on sexual function. Yes, there are myths about the loss of sexual function. These are, indeed, myths and we try to explain, all the time, that there is no dangerous effect on sexual function. 

Mr Speaker, the second one is on procedure. When we look at the possible side effects of the actual procedure, we have the occasional case which gets infected because of unhygienic procedures applied. This is not a complication in terms of the function for which it is done. It is a function of the competence, in some cases, of those who are required to do the operation.

Mr Speaker, we are, therefore, satisfied that there is no need for us to go round talking about these points in so far as they do not, by themselves, constitute any obstacle to the procedure being carried out. This is why we have been relatively silent, but let me assure the hon. Member for Mafinga and all who care to listen that this is a safe procedure which is an effective way to prevent the HIV infection in the whole country and Mafinga, in particular.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Muchima: Mr Speaker, firstly, let me declare interest that I come from the Lunda tribe that has been practising circumcision since time immemorial. In the North-Western Province, the Kaonde tribe is the only exception in the practice of this tradition. 

Mr Speaker, listening to what the hon. Minister has explained so passionately in his answer, would it not be prudent that it becomes a policy, as it was in the Bible, that male born children all undergo circumcision at eight days old so that we achieve higher figures of circumcised males?

Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, I appreciate the support that I am receiving in terms of urging the application of circumcision and I hope that the hon. Member will continue to work with us in pursuit of this objective. 

Sir, as regards making laws and restrictions, our position, as a ministry, is to encourage and advocate for male circumcision in children. However, we do not make any such co-operation compulsory, whatever religious background one might come from. It is not compulsory, but voluntary.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Katambo (Masaiti): Mr Speaker, has the ministry got enough health personnel to carry out the male circumcision operations, especially in rural areas?

Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, I quoted the number of operations that have been performed. Clearly, we had enough personnel to have carried out 800,000 operations during this period. We certainly have enough staff to carry out these operations across the country. We do not have any information about a region of this country where we have been unable to perform this operation because of shortage of appropriate manpower.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Habeenzu (Chikankata): Mr Speaker, this is on a lighter note. Hon. Minister, given the figures outlined in your answer, as a role model, are you circumcised?


Mr Speaker: Order!

You reserve the right not to answer. You are not compelled to answer.


Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, I wish to make this the right moment to say something that has been concerning me about our debates in this House. In a recent observation, the Hon. Mr Speaker referred to the kind of language applied with regard to a particular condition and the derogatory way in which it was presented. Before then, I did notice, also, constant reference to medical procedures, illnesses, treatments and related issues. I must take this opportunity to say that it is a matter of concern. Hon. Members should learn to respect the confidentiality of all medical issues, whether it is inside the House or outside.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Order!

A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, thank you so much for allowing me to rise on this very important point of order.

Mr Speaker, we are people’s representatives and we need to represent our people without fear or favour. However, we are a country which is anchored on certain values. Our cultures are very well known. In yesterday’s discourse, the hon. Member for Bweengwa gave a very good debate in which he discussed the issue of respecting our elders. 

Mr Speaker, is the hon. Member for Chikankata in order to ignore or bury our cherished morals and values of respecting elders and opt to ask our elderly father here …

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah! 

Mr Kampyongo: … or to try and compel him to divulge private information on the Floor of the House?

Mr Speaker, I seek your serious ruling.

Mr Speaker: Order!

I think that you should have followed the debate. Even before the hon. Minster responded, I said that he was not compelled to answer. I made it clear. He was not compelled. I do not want to point to an hon. Member here who would take a different position, but you are an hon. Member of Parliament. However, he also went further to provide some guidance about what I would call, by virtue of my training, the right to privacy. That privacy can only be surrendered, for want of a better term, by volition.

 Coming to the point of order, I think that the hon. Minister has ably dealt with this subject and I think that we should not harp on this subject. If any person desires to campaign on a public health issue, that is a matter of volition. We have seen some campaigns, of course, even on this particular subject. There have been campaigns, but they are voluntary. They must be voluntary. I am stressing this to enable us regulate our conduct and behaviour in future. This should be voluntary. There is a risk, here, that in the process, you would invade the right to privacy, and I think that this is a concern. We are dealing with the right to privacy here.

The hon. Member for Choma Central may ask his question.

We have been at this subject for a while.

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister, in his response, outlined the benefits of male circumcision. One of the benefits he stated is the increased level of awareness and testing. Given that HIV testing in this country is voluntary and, from where I stand, it appears that requiring people who would like to be circumcised to be tested for HIV/AIDS would be intrusive and invasive to their privacy, how does the hon. Minister of Health desire to reconcile this voluntary aspect with the fact that the people who go for male circumcision are required to be tested for the HIV? How does the hon. Minister hope to reconcile these seemingly contradictory positions?

Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, that is an important question because it seems to worry a number of people who present themselves for male circumcision and are concerned that they should not be compelled to undergo HIV testing. Again, I must emphasise to the hon. Member that the word voluntary is the bottom line. Neither circumcision nor testing for the HIV is compulsory. Therefore, these opportunities are offered, but may be rejected by the person concerned. Whether or not it would have been better and figures would have been greater if compulsion was used is not the issue. Our policy is that these services remain voluntary and what we shall be able to achieve will be within that context of voluntary services.

I thank you, Sir.

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo (Mumbwa): Mr Speaker, I am sixty-seven years old …

Hon. Opposition Members: Only?

Mr Speaker: Order!

He is free to volunteer that information.


Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo: … and I am circumcised.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, you have a legal mind, but this question of privacy and leading by example is a matter which either encourages or discourages those who you are leading in a particular profession. 

Mr Speaker, my question is: At what stage can the hon. Minister draw a line between leading by example, for example, by not smoking and excessive indulgence in alcohol? We know from the medical profession that these are bad for health. When my electorate is concerned about my health and ask me generally, “How come you do not look well, hon. Member of Parliament?”, can the hon. Minister clarify whether that is invasion of my privacy? 

Mr Speaker, this is a very important question because leading by example and not leading from the back can win a war.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: We have now gone into medical ethics. 


Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, I would have been less worried if the hon. Member was not medically-orientated. It is a matter of great disappointment to me ... 


Dr Kasonde: … that our ethical principles, to which we swore at the time of graduation and to which we adhere in our practice, are now being questioned by one of us. 


Mr Speaker: Order!

Dr Kasonde: Let us welcome the debate within the profession. I look forward to the continuation of ethical practice until we have an alternative approach.  

I thank you, Sir. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


191. Mr Mwila asked the Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry:

(a)    why the Government decided to sell some shares in Indeni Oil Refinery Company to the public;

(b)    how many shares would be sold;

(c)    how much money would be raised from the sale of the shares;

(d)    how the proceeds from the sale of the shares would be used; and

(e)    which strategic partner had been identified to work with the refinery company.

The Deputy Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry (Mr Sampa): Mr Speaker, the House may wish to note that the shares in Indeni Oil Refinery have not yet been sold. The refinery needs to be upgraded to remain viable in the long-term. The upgrading of the refinery was estimated at US$410 million, as at March, 2014. The upgrading would enable the refinery to produce low sulphur gasoil which is currently being imported. The upgrade would also create capacity for the refinery to process pure crude feed-stock. In order to raise the required financing for the upgrade of the Indeni Refinery, the Government is exploring all possible options of bringing in equity and strategic partner(s) to take up shareholding and co-financing the project. 

Mr Speaker, because the Government regards Indeni as a strategic institution, the plan is to sell up to 49 per cent of the shares in the refinery to an equity partner(s) who would contribute to the financing of the upgrade of the company. This shareholding structure would enable the Government to retain influence in this strategic company. 

The exact amount of money to be raised from the sale of shares to a strategic partner is yet to be determined. The proceeds from the sale of the shares in Indeni are expected to be used to co-finance the upgrade of the oil refinery in terms of its technology and in expanding the existing productive capacities so as to enhance its long-term viability. 

Finally, Mr Speaker, the Government is yet to indentify a suitable equity partner. A partner will be identified in accordance with part VI of the Zambia Development Agency (ZDA) Act No. 11 of 2006, which guides on the process to be used in selling of shares in a State-owned enterprise. 

Mr Speaker, I thank you. 

Mr Mwila: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister how viable this company is. 

Mr Sampa: Mr Speaker, Indeni, as I indicated in my response, was set up years back and, with time, it has not been very efficient. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1045 hours until 1100 hours. 


Ms Imenda (Luena): Mr Speaker, I am aware that when Indeni Oil Refinery was established, the partnership was between the Government of the Republic of Zambia (GRZ) and the Italian Government. Now that the Government is looking for a strategic partner, can the hon. Minister up date me on what happened to the partnership with the Italian Government. Further, if the Government is looking for a different strategic partner, is it in agreement with the Italian Government, which was the first to form partnership with this country, over this refinery? 

Mr Sampa: Mr Speaker, although it is a new question, my understanding is that the Italian Government disengaged from the partnership. I would need to research on the reasons and come back to the House. As it is, however, Indeni Oil Refinery is owned by the Government of the Republic of Zambia 100 per cent and this is why it is open to new equity partners. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, first of all, I would like the hon. Minister to confirm that, in its current form, Indeni Oil Refinery is a basic separator and not a refinery.

 Secondly, the hon. Minister indicated that the company would be upgraded, which I suppose may involve installation of a hydrocracker that will make it a fully-fledged refinery. If this is the position, can he also confirm that the whole list of by-products from crude oil which terminate at bitumen will be produced by Indeni Oil Refinery and, thus, make it viable.

Mr Sampa: Mr Speaker, indeed, I can confirm that all Indeni Oil Refinery does is separate diesel from petrol. What comes in is commingled oil which is, then, separated and sold. 

However, there is a desire to upgrade it to a level where crude oil will be separated, produced and refined. With that come good by-products and there will be companies established to process the by-products. Some of the by-products are polythene bags and so the Food Reserve Agency (FRA) will stop importing plastic bags because the by-products from the crude oil will allow these products to be produced locally. 

Sir, there are more advantages in having a refinery that processes crude oil than the current state where Indeni Oil Refinery just separates the commingled fuel to diesel and petrol. 

I thank you, Sir

Ms Namugala: Mr Speaker, with the benefits that the ministry indicates will accrue to the nation upon upgrading Indeni Oil Refinery, would it not be prudent for the Government to, firstly, make Indeni Oil Refinery viable by investing the US$410 million that is required instead of the Government seeking a strategic partner for Indeni Oil Refinery in its current state? 

Sir, I am aware, for instance, that the Government is importing low sulphur diesel which it can produce if Indeni Oil Refinery is upgraded. With all those benefits, is it not possible for the Government to look for this money that is required and upgrade Indeni Oil Refinery? 

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Sampa: Mr Speaker, it is a case of priorities on the part of the Government to find that US$410 million. The question is: If the Government has that money, does it use it to build a hospital or a school or put invest it in Indeni? The answer is neither here nor there. It is a matter of priority.

Sir, at the moment, the Government is focusing on infrastructure development such as hospitals, roads and schools. Indeni is very viable and there is a nonstop demand for fuel and we know people are buying cars so any business will be looking to partner with the Government. We had the Eurobond, but its use was set on other priorities. The option of finding an equity partner is one of the best because we think any investor will be attracted to it. However, you need to remember that we will maintain 51 per cent so the Government will still be in control.

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, in response to the immediate follow-up question by the hon. Member of Parliament for Chipili on the viability of Indeni, the hon. Minister referred to its efficiency and not necessarily its viability. In response to the question by the hon. Member for Mafinga, he is referring to its viability. 

Sir, can the hon. Minister reconcile the position between the efficiency and the viability of Indeni.

Mr Sampa: Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Member of Mahopo … of Chilenje …


The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

This House only recognises the hon. Member for Kabwata. We do not have a constituency rejoicing under the name of Mahopo. So, take that into account.


Mr Sampa: I thank you, Sir, for that timely correction.

Mr Lubinda: I will see him outside.

Mr Sampa: I thank the hon. Member of Kabwata for that question. 

Sir, Indeni is very viable and that means it is a project that can make huge profits in the long run, but it is not efficient at the moment. Being efficient means inputs and outputs coming out in proportional measures. However, it is not efficient because it is old and because of all the processes that go on there. It is not efficient, but it is a very viable project.

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Konga (Chavuma): Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister reconcile this for me. A few days ago, there were press reports that one of our neighboring countries is talking to the Government in order to export finished petroleum by-products to Zambia because they already have a bonded refinery. Can the hon. Minister explain what the policy will be on whether we shall be importing finished products or whether we shall invest in the refinery.

Mr Sampa: Mr Speaker, what is important is that the Government is guided by what is cost-effective at any particular time. Sometimes, it is cost effective to directly import the finished product while at other times, it is cost effective to bring the commingled fuel and process it. There are times when Indeni Oil Refinery is shut down for maintenance and we have to bring in the finished products. 

Sir, however, in the long run, the solution lies in bio fuel. There are discussions and I saw an advertisement to bring in bio fuel and organic products to mix with this fuel so that if we import a large volume, we will be able to add the bio content and get more volume when it is processed at Indeni. I know that cassava will be one of the products that will be used. The ethanol from there will be mixed with commingled fuel that we will be importing and then we will get more fuel and it will be cheaper. The solution lies in making Indeni more efficient.

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Speaker, arising from the question by the hon. Member of Parliament for Mazabuka Central, …

Mr Nkombo: Yes, that is me.


Mr Mweetwa: … the hon. Deputy Minister has stated that there are plans to turn Indeni Oil Refinery into a fully-fledged refinery. He went on to give other attendant benefits that would arise such as the creation of companies which would produce polythene bags thereby enabling the Food Reserve Agency (FRA) to buy them locally instead of importing them. It sounds sweet to an unsuspecting ear, but we have heard these stories time and again. 

The Deputy Chairperson: What is the question, hon. Member?

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Speaker, plans should have a timeline. When does the Government intend to turn Indeni Oil Refinery into a fully-fledged refinery so that the benefits that have been outlined can come to fruition? 

The Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry (Mr Sichinga): Mr Speaker, the question that was posed is very clear. It talks about the options of privatisation or selling part of the share holding. There are issues to do with the technical aspects pertaining to the production and the output that will come from the refinery which is under the jurisdiction of another ministry. 

Sir, our responsibility is primarily on the business side of things and that is the response that has been provided. There are options that are being considered in order to raise the required funds for the upgrade of Indeni Oil Refinery. That is the response that we have given and we will maintain that position. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Mwamba (Kasama Central): Mr Speaker, each time privatisation is discussed, we only think of bringing in foreign investors. For a change, can …

Mr Nkombo: You?

Mr Mwamba: … Zambians be considered to take part in buying some of the shares in Indeni?

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichinga: Mr Speaker, the response is very clear. There has been no indication that this only refers to a foreign partner. We have talked about a possible partner or partners and no one is prevented from joining this privatisation process when this particular option is finalised. 

I thank you, Sir. 




(Debate resumed)

Mr Hamudulu (Siavonga): Mr Speaker, from the outset, I want to put it on record that I have a lot of respect for the hon. Minister of Finance, both for the work he has done in the past and at the moment. Having said that, the Budget that he presented to this House, this time around, does not offer solutions to the problems the people of Siavonga are faced with nor does it meet their aspirations. I am going to give details why I say so.   

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamudulu: Mr Speaker, a year ago, I stood on the Floor of this House and delivered a sermon on …

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamudulu: …the hardships that we underwent, as people of the Gwembe Valley, when Kariba Dam was constructed. Unfortunately, the sinner for whom the sermon was meant has not repented. It is for that reason that I will not to tire. I will go through what I have said before so that, probably, this time around, the message can be driven home. 

Sir, electricity has contributed tremendously to the well-being of Zambia. I mentioned this the last time and I am going to repeat it. Some of the people of Zambia had to sacrifice their lives for that electricity to be generated. Where Lake Kariba is sitting now used to be a dwelling place for a group of people called the Gwembe Tongas. These people were displaced and it was not by evolution, but by force. Our fore fathers were forced to leave that area to go to places which they did not even know in order to pave way for the construction of that dam which is contributing to the generation of power in Zambia today. 

Mr Speaker, what did we lose when we were displaced? To start with, lives were lost. We have lists of names of the people who died as a result of that displacement. This happened because a war broke out between the then colonial masters in the Government and the people of that area. Our fore fathers resisted. They had spears, knobkerries, machetes and whatever weapons they could lay their hands on, but the Government came with guns. Of course, we butchered a few too, …


Mr Hamudulu: … but, in the end, we gave up and we were displaced. Homes were also lost and houses were buried. Our fields from which we used to get our produce from and the water that we used to drink were lost. Our shrines that we cherished so much were lost. The graves of our beloved ones are buried there. We cannot even hold memorial services because we do not know where the graves of those people really are. Families were also scattered. Since 1958 to date, some families have not been able to reunite. Families were lost in order to pave way for the construction of that dam. Just two weeks ago, the hon. Deputy Minister for Lusaka Province came to commemorate that day with us, a day that we remember every year under the name of Zambangulwe. This is just to show how important this history is. 

Mr Speaker, I want to recognise the fact that the hon. Minister of Finance was there in the first Government. All the successive governments have paid a deaf ear to our cry. Just yesterday, the hon. Minister of Mines, Energy and Water Development boasted about not having load shedding in Kabwe, but he is forgetting that that power is coming from Kariba Dam. In Siavonga, we do not experience load shedding because there is no power there. There is a total blackout. All we see are power lines passing over our heads.

Sir, we hear of mineral royalties, but what about electricity royalties? Electricity is not just falling from somewhere in heaven. It is being generated at a place where we used to live. As people of Siavonga, Chirundu, Gwembe, Sinazongwe and Mapatizya, we had expectations which, unfortunately, have not been addressed by this Budget. 

Mr Speaker, our arable land was lost. We are now beggars because we were pushed to live up land where the land is so dry. Those of you who have been to Siavonga can attest to that. There is erratic rainfall and the soil is poor. We cannot grow anything. One crop that we have attempted to grow, over the years, is cotton. However, what happened two years ago? The cotton price plummeted and there was no assistance whatsoever from the Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock. I remember very well that Hon. Chenda was the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Livestock then. He came to this House and told us that he was negotiating with the merchants of cotton, but nothing came our way. Now, we are apprehensive in terms of growing cotton because we see that it is not profitable and there is nowhere to run to. 

Sir, let me go to crop diversification. The hon. Minister mentioned this in his Budget, but I have not seen where he specifically talks about the Gwembe Valley people in terms of giving them crops that they can grow in those areas. That is why I am saying that this Budget has not answered our cries. 

Mr Speaker, we lost the water that we used to drink. I will come back to this like I did last year. If you tasted the water of the Zambezi River, you would discover that it is of superior quality. It is no wonder that our fore fathers used to live along the banks of the Zambezi River. That water is very tasty. Now, we are given boreholes which are scantly distributed and the water is so bad that you have to close your eyes in order to swallow it.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Hamudulu: Mr Speaker, as if that is not enough, by August/September, all the boreholes dry up.

Mr Muchima: Like now.

Mr Hamudulu: Exactly. Therefore, people have to walk long kilometres to the lake shores in order to draw water from the lake, which is infested with crocodiles. It is a known fact that crocodiles feast on some of these people that go to draw water from the lake. I raised this issue with the Ministry of Tourism and Art, but the hon. Deputy Minister who is sitting there (pointing at Hon. Evans) told us to choose areas which are not infested by crocodiles when fetching water.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Hamududu: Is that an answer?

Who is superior to this Government …

Mr Nkombo: Let us take him there.

Mr Hamudulu: … between a crocodile that lives in water or Mr Mweemba, who lives in chief Sinadambwe, who cast his vote on election day and is a Zambian? The crocodile can even cross over to Zimbabwe and be called a Zimbabwean, but we need a passport to go to Zimbabwe because we belong to Zambia. It is unfortunate because our Government chooses to protect a crocodile at the expense of a human being.

Sir, as if that is not enough, the Zambia Wildlife Authority (ZAWA) will only deploy one officer to Siavonga, Chirundu, Gwembe and Sinazongwe districts. Further, there is only one officer who patrols in Siavonga and he does not even have a bicycle. Therefore, this year, we have decided to buy him a motor bicycle using the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), money which could have been channeled to other areas.

Mr Ntundu: And a gun.

Mr Hamudulu: We may also have to make him a traditional gun that we call Mudikili because most of the time he does not even have ammunition.


Mr Hamudulu: The hon. Minister has failed us in this regard.

Mr Speaker, let me talk about irrigation. Irrigation is an alternative for the people that live in dry areas. A few months ago, I had a trip with the then hon. Minister of Agriculture and Livestock, who is now the hon. Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry, and we commissioned a dam in Lusitu area. I regret to inform him that that dam is very dry now.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Hamudulu: Sir, our goats, pigs and chickens just drop dead out of thirst.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Ntundu: Under the PF.

Mr Hamudulu: This is not a joke. This is because people would rather drink the little water that they draw from the river instead of giving it to their livestock. However, Budget in and Budget out, we hear about the building of dams. Where are these dams being constructed? Our animals are dying.

Mr Speaker, let me talk about electricity. In this year’s Rural Electricity Authority (REA) work plan, there are no projects for Siavonga, Chirundu …

Mr Nkombo: Aku Mazabuka taku.

Mr Hamudulu: … and Gwembe districts. Only one small project was worked on when they were just beginning at a place called Pabazana in Chirundu. That is the only project they did and it was a test programme. As we speak, if you went to a place called Lusitu, which is along the road that goes to Siavonga, you would be surprised that people send even two-year olds to fetch water because the place is dry. People get this water from very shallow wells that they dig near Lusitu River. They call these wells icikala.


The Deputy Chairperson: What does that mean?

Mr Hamudulu: Mr Speaker, these are small wells that people dig using their hands near the river or in the sand.


Mr Hamudulu: Sir, this is the plight that the people in Siavonga are going through. I was hoping that after the sermon that I delivered last year on this subject, the sinner would repent.


Mr Hamudulu: However, it seems the sinner has not repented, of course, on behalf of the Government.


Mr Hamudulu: Mr Speaker, while I still have a few minutes, let me talk about the Bottom Road. This road has been used to hoodwink us into believing that something is going on.

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

Mr Hamudulu: The Bottom Road has been a song that has been sung since the time of the United National Independence Party (UNIP) era to date. However, I must hasten to mention that I am proud that, at least, something has started happening there.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamudulu: I call this window dressing.

Hon. Government Members: Aah!


The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Hamudulu: Sir, I call it window dressing because the road is not tarred, but it is painted black ...


Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Hamudulu: … and the culverts and bridges leave a lot to be desired. The hon. Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication should pay attention to what I am saying. This is because for us to appreciate that good project, we want it to be long lasting. We do not want to come to this House three years later to complain about the same thing. Since the PF Government has started working on it, it should do it to the best if its ability. At the moment, there are unnecessary curves and the bridges are too short and cannot cover the width of the rivers. I feel Nakawambwa and Lusitu bridges should be redone.

Sir, when I was young, I would sleep in my grandmother’s hut. Rats would come in the night to bite my feet …


Mr Hamudulu: … and then they would blow them so that I could not feel the pain.


Mr Hamudulu: Mr Speaker, that is what the Government wants to do to us. We need the Bottom Road, therefore, it should be done well.

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes.


Mr Hamudulu: Mr Speaker, the Government is behaving like rats by biting our feet and blowing them at the same time.


Mr Hamudulu: Fortunately, we are clever enough to see through that. Recently, His Honour the Vice-President was at a place called Changa where there was a ward by-election. I would have loved him to use that road but, as usual, he flew to that place.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Hamudulu: He did not take the opportunity to see the so-much talked about road. Had he passed through that road, he would have been my witness today and, I am sure, he would talked about it like I am doing.

Sir, I would like to urge the hon. Minister of Finance to consider the people of the valley. He should hear their cry. Even as the Government intensifies the revenue collection from the mines which run on power, it should look at the chain of electricity generation and its source. It should empower the people of Siavonga. They are not asking for too much, but for a commodity that is being generated from their area.

Mr Hamusonde: Kwamana buya.

Mr Habeenzu: Instead of biting us.

Mr Hamudulu: Exactly. Instead of, indeed, biting and then blowing a bit.


Mr Hamudulu: Mr Speaker, I want to be the Government’s mouthpiece. I want to come and testify that the Bottom Road is well done so that even as my colleagues on your right talk, they can do so with their heads held high.

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

Mr Hamudulu: Sir, however, at the moment, the Bottom Road in Siavonga District has been worked on, but instead of being tarred, it has been painted black.

Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Hamudulu: So, in order for us …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Speaker made a ruling that during this segment of our debate, no points of order would be allowed. So, I will not over rule that decision.

The hon. Member for Siavonga may continue.

Mr Hamudulu: Sir, in conclusion, I would like to say that as far as the Bottom Road is concerned, we demand that this road be tarred and not be painted black.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima (Chembe): Mr Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to thank you for this rare opportunity. I want to believe that the definition of the Budget has already been given.

Sir, as has already been mentioned by the earlier speaker, the strongman of Siavonga, I would like to say that, indeed, when we discuss the Budget, I am sorry, you have to bear with us because we are not discussing an individual, but the whole system.

 Mr Speaker, let me add that besides being a statement of priority, the Budget is a collective resolve of the Executive and that is why we do not personalise issues in our approach. I also want to state further that I do not agree with some sections of the media when they zero in on one individual because that individual can go, die or even resign. Therefore, if it means attacking, we must attack the system. 

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Speaker, it is from that angle that I must state that on behalf of the people of Milenge, whom I represent, and indeed, on my own behalf, I do not find this Budget inspiring and I am going to give some of the reasons.

Sir, my metaphor is on football. The way I look at the Budget and the growth in the economy is the way I look at football. In the early 1970s, 1980s and 1990s, Zambian football was great, no doubt about it. Suffice it to say that, in this region, we were actually the best. It was an honour for certain countries like Malawi, Botswana or Zimbabwe to play against Zambia. I remember hammering teams like Kenya 8-0 during the East and Central African Challenge Cup. When we beat Malawi by four goals, they would go celebrating. This is how great football was. 

Mr Speaker, over time, we started losing until those of us who were in the football administration met the Chairperson of the National Sports Council of Zambia. In 2005, we met as an association and decided that we needed a collective resolve as a country, Government, non-governmental organisations (NGOs) and all the football administrators. It was at that point that we drew a line and mapped the route that Zambia needed to take.

Sir, in 2006, when we sent the team to Egypt with the likes of Rainford Kalaba, Chris Katongo, Felix Katongo, Collins Mbesuma, who were young at the time, we knew where we were going. We had established the pillars of development or growth, that is, the football panacea, infrastructure, coaching, referees, and administration. It was this team that you saw lifting the Africa Cup of Nations in 2012. The planning had started much earlier.

Mr Speaker, I believe that in the process, as a footballing nation, we have lost it or we lost it. You will agree with me that this could be the reason that even the ranking at the Confederation of African Football (CAF) or International Federation of Association Football (FIFA) level has dropped. You will also agree with me that it is, perhaps, the same reason that countries like Mauritius and Botswana are better ranked. The highest position in football ranking in the region is held by Mauritius and it is seconded by Botswana, countries which knew little about soccer.

Sir, let me come back to the topic. The scenario I have given of football in this country is the same direction that the economy has taken. In 1971 and 1972, we were the second best economy in Africa, but we lost it in the process. It is sad that even small countries can start boasting around. Yes, from independence, we faced a lot of challenges, including the liberation struggle, for which we sacrificed a lot.

Sir, whilst we believe that the United National Independence Party (UNIP) did a lot by opening up the routes in all the districts with facilities such as hospitals, we are not strong as an economy. 

Mr Speaker, starting from 1991, when the economic growth was in the negative, it was the beginning and the change for better things. When you look at the reign of the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD), from 1991 to the time when it left the Government, any reasonable person will agree that the economic foundation had been set.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

 Mr Mbulakulima: From the negative growth of the economy, by the time we were leaving the Government, the economy was growing at 7.3 per cent. 

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima: The import cover was about four months and the inflation rate was a single digit. Now, when you take all these fundamentals into account and the subsequent coming into power of our Patriotic Front (PF) colleagues coming into office, we expected accelerated development because the foundation was laid. However, what we see now is that the economy is not expanding. Yes, I know that our colleagues on the other side of the House will say that they have done well because this Budget is like this and that, but collectively, as a nation, let us agree that the economy is not expanding. Therefore, it is from that angle that we believe that, as Zambians, we must do a lot more because the foundation was laid.

Mr Speaker, when you look at the economic fundamentals, which I said were very conducive for take-off, you will realise that when the MMD took over power in 1991, it continued with the projects which were left by the UNIP Administration. Although I have heard many people say that unlike the PF, the MMD abandoned many projects, it is either they were young or were not there because the MMD did not do such a thing. At that time, the economy was at its lowest in 1989, 1990 and 1991. 

Sir, I would like to challenge any hon. Member to come forth and challenge me on any project that was abandoned by the MMD. I will tell you that the MMD carried on with all the projects that the UNIP Government had embarked on. For example, it carried on with the Kafue Dual Carriageway project which was signed by Mr Rabson Chongo, the Minister of Finance then. Therefore, the MMD did not abandon any project. Actually, the expansion of the Great East Road was signed by UNIP and the MMD did not abandon it. As regards the economic policy, it is UNIP which started the privatisation process in 1990 when I was the Chairperson for the union and we restructured the Zambia State Insurance and Corporation and many people lost their jobs. That was the path that UNIP took.

 Mr Speaker, I want to appreciate the view that you have continued, but at the same time, it would have been political suicide if you did not follow or if you abandoned the projects that you found. It is for this reason that we are saying that all the economic fundamentals were in place. 

Sir, for example, if you look at energy, you will discover that the Kariba North Bank was upgraded with all those three generators. In 2008, that project started. The Itezhi-tezhi Power Hydro Station and the Maamba Collieries were there. How do you abandon such projects? It would be political suicide. Everything was set for you to take-off.

Sir, if the example that I have given on energy is not enough, let me give an example of education. The Kwame Nkrumah Project and the infrastructure was on course. The Mukuba University is a beautiful and important project. If you went to Mulungushi University, today, the hostels are done and have been commissioned. They are fantastic. So, how do you abandon such projects, colleagues? You were very lucky to have taken over a strong economy.

Mr Speaker, as if that is not enough, I will take you to commerce, trade and industry. We transformed Chirundu Border Post into a one-stop boarder post. If you went to Chirundu, today, you would think that you are in Germany. After that, we started working on the Katimamulilo and Nakonde and Kasumbalesa border posts. That is what a responsible Government can do. The foundation was set. 

Sir, as if that is not enough, how can a sportsman abandon Levy Mwanawasa Stadium?

 Hon. Opposition Members: You cannot!

 Mr Mbulakulima: How do you abandon the National Heroes Stadium?   

Mr Speaker, I can go on mentioning projects and roads. We, the MMD, were on course and that is why I am saying, as a nation, we should grow the economy because the foundation was already laid. 

Mr Speaker, at the time the MMD left office, the inflation rate was at 6 per cent. Today, we are projecting to it to be 7 per cent. At that time, the economic growth was at 7.3 per cent, but today, we are envisaging growing the economy to 7 per cent. So, at what stage are we going to grow this economy to a level where the benefits will trickle down to the ordinary Zambian?

Sir, again, this is why I gave an example of Colonel Lungu. If it was in the military, he would tell you that we are neither moving forward nor backwards, but marking time and that is not good for the country. So, there is a need for us to work on ensuring that we move this country’s economy forward. Hon. Minister of Finance, I have looked at the Budget and if we are not careful, we will end up with a double digit inflation rate. If you look at the economic growth, it is at 7 per cent, and yet we were above that. The international reserve growth is at 3.6 per cent and you want to go to 4 per cent which we had already achieved.

Mr Speaker, on agriculture, today, some districts have received fertiliser for the 2014/2015 Farming Season, but they do not have money to pay for it because farmers have not been paid. So, what is the purpose of having a bumper harvest when the price of mealie meal is higher that ever before in the abundance of maize in the country? We are starving and, so, there is a need for us to look at these issues critically.

Sir, on external debt, we have admitted that within one year, the country’s external debt has grown by more than 34 per cent. Where will that leave us? This is chocking the country and there is a need for us to slow down on borrowing. All these fundamentals like domestic debt and the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) are not adjusted. In a place like Milenge, this is what you see. For the past three years, I have lamented, in this House, that Milenge has never received any grant apart from the salaries. So, the only money that you find in Milenge is the CDF. However, even that is stagnant now.

Sir, let me now come to the Budget releases. How efficient have we been? We approved this Budget, but how much money was released from what we approved last year? We are yet to see that happening. However, we continue debating and arguing and then we are told that the economy is growing. How is the economy growing? There is a need for us to sit down and seriously look at how we can grow our economy.

Sir, I gave an example of football in connection to the economy of the country. You need to have all the stakeholders on board if you are going to win. I know that it is not a situation where the winner takes it all. However, when we are faced with a challenge like this, you must look at countries like Botswana, which has been a stronger economy. There are also other emerging economies in Africa and that is the reason the example I gave of having been overtaken in football is still valid. Countries like Rwanda, which were not anywhere near us, are growing the economy with double digits today.

Mr Mbewe: You see!

Mr Mbulakulima: Sir, a country like Ethiopia, where all of you were singing about saving the children, is growing its economy to double digits today.

Mr Mbewe: Remind them.

Mr Mbulakulima: What has happened to us, as a great nation? From 1971 to 1972, we had a vibrant economy. If it means calling people like Dr Imakando, Dr Musokotwane, Mr Ng’andu Magande, Mr Felix Mutati and Mr Mbulakulima, do that and brainstorm.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima: Sir, we must grow the economy because that is our national responsibility. We cannot stagnate the way we have. Time has come for us to grow our country’s economy.

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Member, as you mentioned the names of people who should be consulted, I heard you mention one person by the name of Mr Mbulakulima, I do not know where he is.


Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Speaker, as I wind up, …

Mr Mbewe: Continue.

Mr Mwale: Hammer, hammer!

Mr Mbulakulima: … there is one issue that is very close to my heart and I want to apologise to my colleagues from the Southern, Western and North-Western provinces. There is an impression created in this House that some places are getting more benefits than others.

Mr Mwanza: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Speaker, this is a dangerous move and that is why I want to follow Hon. Hamududu’s debate for yesterday. If we, Members of the Opposition, take that route, then, this country will go up in flames.

Mr Mbewe: Remind them.

Mr Mbulakulima: Who is responsible for this?

Hon. MMD Members: PF.

Mr Mbulakulima: Sir, sometimes, I shudder at the thought of this because as the Member of Parliament for Luapula, maybe, I am also discriminated against. I say so because in Milenge, for example, the only project that is going on is the construction of a hospital, which the MMD left. The college is not functioning and there is no road that has been worked on. So, which progress are my colleagues on your right boasting about? I have been to Samfya, for example, and I have not seen any development there. Yesterday, I followed the debate about massive development by Hon. Muchima. What is the massive development that can pit us against our own brothers and sisters from Luapula and the Northern provinces all because of kakambidwe, meaning because of the manner of speech? 

Mr Speaker, there is a need for us to change. If anything, if you think you making a grade, you should know that you are actually bringing His Excellency the President’s name in disrepute. I want to believe that he means well for this nation. However, we come here to debate that our areas are receiving massive development.

Mr Speaker, take for instance Luapula Province, what massive development are we talking about? Luapula Province is a PF stronghold. In its campaigns there, the PF promised the people to revive the operations at Mansa Batteries and Mununshi Banana Scheme, among others. Today, what has been achieved? Even the little development that is going on there, such as the works on the Pedicle Road, we all know was started by the MMD Government. When I asked the late President Mwanawasa, SC., about the bridge on the Pedicle Road, he told me to take it easy and that he would give it to me after two to three years. 

He said if he did that at that time when I asked for it, then, he would be putting me against people in the country. So, you can see the wisdom there. That project started a long time ago, but today, you want to take the glory for it. If you ask Hon. Dr Musokotwane about the Mansa/Luwingu Road, he will tell you about the funding from the World Bank.

Mr Speaker, when you talk about schools, which government, all over the world does not provide schools or hospitals as part of its job? You see, colleagues, your debate has pitted us against other people. You stand here and debate as if Luapula is a place of honey. That is not fair. Yes, when the time to campaign in Luapula comes, the way we had campaigns in Mansa Central Parliamentary Constituency, then, we can compete and say the United Party for National Development (UPND) cannot do this, the MMD failed to do this and we can do this. I agree with you. However, when you come here and want to paint a picture that there is massive development taking place, then, the people of the Southern and North-Western provinces have the right to protest because it is coming from you.

Mr Mwanza: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima: Sir, I do not want to think that this is the desire of your Government. Watch out. This is not good and it is not fair. 

Hon. MMD Members: Well done!

Mr Mbulakulima: Sir, as a senior Member of Parliament from that province and with the powers vested in me, I am now directing hon. Cabinet Ministers from that province, who are Hon. Kalaba and Hon. Kabanshi, with the help of the hon. Provincial Minister, to review and harmonise the situation. There is a need for us to sit and see which angle we should take as we debate. These people are now up in arms asking what is in Milenge, Samfya and Mwense. So, you tell me (pointing at hon. Government Members).

Sir, let us find the right vocabulary to use when debating because that time has come for us. There is no government anywhere in the world which does not provide schools for its people. So, when you take an ambulance to an area, you tell the chief about it and then the whole chiefdom is dancing because of one ambulance. You must stop that.

Hon. MMD Members: Shame!

Mr Mbulakulima: Sir, we cannot continue like that. Let us, instead talk about real and massive development. That is what we need. I am giving you free advice. You are putting this Government in a quandary. Why are we doing this? 

Sir, I really wanted to air my views on these matters that I have talked about. It is not common to thank you twice, but it is an honour that you gave me an opportunity to debate this Motion.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mufalali (Senanga): Mr Speaker, I want to thank you for this opportunity to say something on the Budget Address presented by the hon. Minister of Finance.


The Deputy Chairperson: Order, on the left, please!

Mr Mufalali: Mr Speaker, someone said that the moment a person is born, the brain starts working and the moment he/she stands up is the only time when, sometimes, the brain stops working. 

Mr Speaker, I want to thank the hon. Members who have spoken before me for their debates. It has now been five decades from the time Zambia was declared independent and five Presidents have taken oath of office.

Mr Chikwanda started walking out of the Chamber.

Mr Mbewe: On a point of order, Sir. Where is he going?


Mr Mufalali: In my reasoning, out of these five Presidents, three were democrats while the other two have been dictators to some extent. I think the cover page of the Budget Speech, as indicated by Hon. Muntanga, is not indicating to us that we have had five Presidents. I am wondering why only two Presidents, the first and current one, are the ones who have been portrayed to have ruled this country for the last fifty years. These two are tyrants and have tried by all means to ensure that people do not freely speak their mind.

Mr Speaker, I want to go straight to page 1 of the speech by the hon. Minister of Finance. In paragraph three on this page, the hon. Minister said:

“… We have advanced the cause of freedom and self-determination at home and abroad by fighting for the liberation of our neighbours. We have also advanced a generation of Zambians who are contributing to the growth of our nation at home and in the Diaspora. These are achievements worth celebrating.”

Mr Speaker, we fought for other nations in the sub-region to get their freedom. When the hon. Minister said this, I was reminded of the days when I was involved in this struggle. I am one of those who were able to fight side by side with some of the people who were fighting for their liberation. I grew up in Sesheke, but started my Grade 1 at a school in Mambova. At the time, wars for the liberation struggle were so intense. We were just children, but we were helping the freedom fighters.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mufalali: Mr Speaker, when I moved from Mambova to Sesheke, the wars were still raging. I went to a school called Silumbu in Sesheke and the wars were still on. Therefore, when the hon. Minister of Finance talks about helping other countries getting their liberation, what was happening then  is quite clear in my mind. I remember the likes of Captain Foloshi, who is now a retired major and lives in Ndola. I also remember Captain Mwansa. These were the men we were helping. We used to give them information on what was going on, even as children, because we knew what was happening.


Mr Mufalali: Mr Speaker, as if that was not enough, when I went to Silumbu, we continued helping the freedom fighters, the ones we used to call the FF, from the South West Africa People's Organisation (SWAPO). The Boers used to fly jets all over the place. When they came on the ground, they would ask us where the FF had gone, but we would point in the opposite direction because that is what we had been told to do. So, the liberation struggle for our neighbouring countries is very vivid in my mind. What is also vivid is the time when Andimba Herman Toivo Ya Toivo arrived in Sesheke because I was there. These were true freedom fighters.

Mr Speaker, the Patriotic Front (PF) Government must put its house in order. I watched the burial of Mr Nelson Mandela. Our first President, Dr Kaunda, was in attendance, but this country was overshadowed after all that we did for our friends, the South Africans. I saw that Tanzania was treated like it was the headquarters of the African National Congress (ANC) during the South African liberation struggle, and yet its headquarters was here. 

Sir, something is wrong with our friends in the PF because there is no way, after the role Dr Kaunda played by having meetings in trains across the Victoria Falls, he could be treated in the manner he was treated at that funeral. I saw that he wanted to say something, but because the protocols were not properly done, he was told to hurry up due to time. I was disheartened by that. I felt bad that the centre stage was given to someone else. 

Mr Speaker, this shows that there is something wrong with our foreign policy. There is something wrong with the way we have been handling the countries that we have helped. Therefore, I think the PF needs to sit down and review the country’s foreign policy. What happened to Dr Kaunda was not good.

Mr Speaker, let me go back to the story of the people we helped to be liberated and, in this regard, I want to talk about the role that the people of Imusho in Sesheke District played. Today, the people of Imusho, where the freedom fighters were fighting from, are grappling with high levels of poverty. To travel from Sesheke to Imusho, you have to go through Namibia. I went to Imusho recently, when my young brother was sick, and I had to drive through Namibia to get there. 

Sir, the people of Imusho helped our so-called neighbours. They fought on behalf of this country and, today, we are very proud to put it on record that this has been an achievement. It is an achievement, yes, but what have we done for the people of Imusho? Why should they go through Namibia to get to their homes? 

Mr Speaker, apart from that, the people in Imusho have to cross into Angola for them to make ends meet. They have to cross the Kwandu River to do piece work. The way they are treated there is saddening. They cross with their mats and at the end of the piece work, they are told not to sleep in the village they were working from, but given a separate place. 

Sir, this is happening in a country in which we are celebrating fifty years of independence. Our citizens are mistreated like that, and yet we are failing to offer them something so that they can be part of the fifty years of independence we want to celebrate. In Lusaka, we will be celebrating, but when you get to Imusho, what you will find is so sad. I was saddened with what I found the last time I was there. I went to pick my young brother and I was saddened when I saw the way people are living there. 

Mr Speaker, why should we even be boasting of fifty years of independence when we have forgotten about our own citizens? There is no road going directly to Imusho from other parts of this country. When I was young, the only way we could get to Imusho was to hang on to the lower end of the tents on IFA and Magirus trucks. However, the roads we were using have been abandoned after the end of the liberation struggle for neighbouring countries. They are not there anymore. Why should there be no road going to Imusho after fifty years of independence? What have we done for the people in this area? They definitely deserve something. We need to recognise these people and construct a road for them.

Mr Speaker, from Sesheke all the way to Nalolo, we have suffered a lot. The people in Kalobolelwe, Silumbu, Kapau, Sioma, Nangweshi and Matebele, where a bridge was bombed, are still far much behind in terms of infrastructure development. However, this Government is boasting that fifty years of independence have been a serious achievement. What achievement is that when our people are suffering and they have no roads?  

The sacrifice of the people of Imusho, Silumbu, and Mwanamwalye in order to liberate our neighbouring countries should be acknowledged. People cannot be neglected as we have been neglected.

Mr Speaker, I looked at the infrastructure development plan and noticed that there is nothing for the people of Imusho. The road network that could have connected us to from Sioma through Nalolo to Kalabo is not there, and yet we are being told that there are feasibility studies going on. The bridge for Senanga is not even mentioned. I am wondering whether this bridge connecting Senanga and Sesheke will be built because it is not mentioned. Bridges have been talked about, but this particular bridge has not been mentioned.

Mr Speaker, I am wondering when this Government will think of constructing a road from Senanga to connect Luampa. It is not being mentioned. There is the easiest route for the modern Copperbelt, which is the North-Western province. The easiest route is Lumwana; you come to Kabompo, Kasempa, connecting to Kaoma …

Mr Mwanza: Hear, hear!

Mr Mufalali: … Kaoma, you go through Luampa to Machile which is in Mulobezi, and then you will be in Sesheke on your way to Walvis Bay.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mufalali: That has been neglected, but when you google, you find that there are plans which exist that there should be a route that will go through that way.

Mr Mwanza: You see. Tell them!

Mr Mufalali: Now, all those projects which are economically viable are being neglected. You start putting roads where you will not get any value. Such roads are supposed to be avoided. I am wondering what is really happening.

The hon. Minister once came here and told us that “figures do not mean anything”. I agree with him that he does not believe in figures or statistics. He told us statistics do not mean anything when he presented his first Budget. I want to tell him also that his statistics do not mean anything because he talked about ensuring that the money gets down to the people, the grass roots. Development must be seen to be going down to the lower levels of our society, but it is not happening.

The hon. Minister comes here and tells us he has statistics which he disparaged when announcing his first Budget to this House. He is telling us that the economy is growing at 7 per cent. What is 7 per cent? We are not seeing that 7 per cent growth he is talking about, ...

Mr Nkombo: PF sees it.

Mr Mufalali: … but they are seeing it. I do not know how. If you look at the infrastructure that you have mentioned in your Budget, I still want to tell you that you have concentrated on the northern side of this country.

Mr Mwanza: Hear, hear!

Mr Mufalali: There is nothing for the other parts of this country.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Mufalali: The named roads here in the budget are in Northern and Luapula provinces. This is what you have mentioned in the budget. If something is not mentioned, then, we know that it is not going to be done. From the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks. If you are able to release information, you are indicating that, yes, this is what I am going to do. That is why I am saying, if the bridge connecting Senanga and Sesheke is not here, then, I know it is not going to be done. So, your infrastructure development is concentrated in the northern part of this country. You have indicated repeatedly that you are doing more and you are going to finish those projects like Paul Mushindo and the rest. This is what you are telling us. 

Now, what do we have? Are we going to continue coming here to accompany you approve a Budget, …

Mr Mwanza: Hear, hear!

Mr Mufalali: … while we are wallowing in poverty?

Mr Mwanza: Those are the issues.

Mr Mufalali: Year in and year out, for three years, nothing has been happening in the other parts of this country. Stop telling us that it has been only three years. Time is up. Three years it has been, but what have you done during this time?

Mr Mwanza: Nothing.

Mr Mufalali: Stop believing that three years is a short time. It is not. It is enough time to do a lot of things. You cannot continue saying that you have only been in power for three years. You should produce things.

Mr Speaker, on empowerment, the other day, the hon. Minister of Finance was complaining and wondering why South Korea which, in 1964, was on a par with Zambia, had left Zambia far behind in terms of development. This is the issue, if we are going to strategise properly and are going to think through and take the models of how other economies managed to develop, we will be able to get there. It will not help for the hon. Minister to lament how Zambia is lagging behind in terms of development. 


Mr Mufalali: There are models that we can use. China used the convergence effect and it was able to reach where it is. The Government is not applying any strategies here, and yet it has the power, hon. Minister, to ensure that it applies the convergence effect. This is where, every company that comes in the country, should partner with a Zambian so that we able to get something, that is, their technology and the way things are done, hands on, but that is not happening. We keep on complaining about our people being poor and Zambia being underdeveloped and so on and so forth, and yet we have that power to overcome this. Why do we not do it? We have the capacity to do it. Why should we keep on crying?

Mr Speaker, I want to ask the hon. Minister why, when he got the 750 Eurobond, he came to the House and tabulated how it was going to be used.

Mr Mwale: Hear, hear!

Mr Mufalali: You have got the second one billion, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mufalali: … but you have failed to tell us what you have done with the other money.

Mr Mbewe: Bana gabana.

Mr Mufalali: Where has the accountability and transparency that you wanted to portray when you first came? Now, you are trying to hide the figures. Why are you trying to hide all these things?

Mr Sing’ombe: Mpukunya matobo.

Mr Mbewe: Azakumangani.

Mr Mufalali: At the end of this, Mr Speaker, we want the hon. Minister to tell us what he has done with the second Eurobond. We advised the Government to stop blowing up its Civil Service. We also advised it to stop getting too many hon. Ministers as deputies, but it did not listen. Now, it is faced with a situation where the civil servants want an increment, but the Civil Service is over blown. So many districts have been created without looking at how much money the Government has. The Government is in a quandary. It has nowhere to go. If it is not careful, its Wage Bill will continue going up. I do not know how it will operate.

Mr Mwanza: Hear, hear!

Mr Mufalali: We advised the Government, but it turned our advice down. Now, we are advising it to stop borrowing, and yet it is still turning down our advice by stating that it is within the internationally-acceptable threshold. We told it about the Civil Service …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mufalali: … getting bigger, but it denied this fact. Now, here it is in a quandary today.

 Mr Speaker, let us minimise this borrowing. I think it is enough, more so, because we are not being told what the money is being used for.

Mr Speaker, 20 per cent of the Budget will go towards education. While we appreciate that there is an increase in the allocation to education, I want to put it to the hon. Minister that, yesterday, I heard people talking about community schools being pole-and-mud. The hon. Minister of Education, Science, Vocation Training and Early Education is aware about the situation in Senanga and the Western Province as a whole. Government schools that are built of brick and mortar are very few. It is worse in Senanga because I can count not more than seven schools, while the rest are pole-and-mud and grass thatched.

Mr Speaker, this is a situation that you find in a country that is boasting of having attained independence fifty years ago. What are we doing? Yes, in other places, I am told that community schools are pole-and-mud, but in Senanga all the schools are pole-and-mud and we require better schools. I think we deserve something better for our people.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mufalali: We deserve something better for the teachers.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mufalali: Mr Speaker, a meeting cannot be addressed while a snake enters a teacher’s house because it has holes thereby inhibiting the teacher from entering the house. It cannot be like that fifty years after independence, and yet you want to boast about achievement. What have we achieved when in many of our districts and constituencies schools are made of pole-and- mud? There is something wrong about this situation. 

When you tell them this is mediocre, they get annoyed. This is mediocre. It is too ordinary. We need to change. There must be a shift, otherwise, we are doomed. We cannot continue being in the same place, doing the same things over and over, and yet we are not getting the desired results. There is something wrong in the PF Government.

Mr Speaker, in the words of Abraham Lincoln, the sixteenth President of the United States of America, “I hope there is some divinity that will shape our end.”

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ndalamei (Sikongo): Mr Speaker, I thank you for according me an opportunity to debate the Motion on the 2015 Budget Speech. To start with, I would like to say that I was disappointed by the fact that the Budget was being discussed three days before it was presented to this House …

Mr Mbewe: Oh, it leaked ayi?

Mr Ndalamei: … because it was leaked. I do not know what has gone wrong at the Ministry of Finance. Maybe, the workers are frustrated …

Hon. MMD Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Ndalamei: … and that is why they are leaking information to the media.

Mr Mbewe: That is a point.

Mr Ndalamei: Mr Speaker, I would like to start by discussing the theme of the 2015 Budget which is “Celebrating our Golden Jubilee as One Zambia One Nation by Making Economic Independence a Reality for All.” 

Mr Speaker, what nice words to use to formulate a theme for the Budget. However, what development is being shared equally in this country? What development has the Government taken to the Western Province since it took over power in 2011? 

Mr Mwale: Ba Kapeya.

Mr Ndalamei: What projects? All the projects being undertaken in the Western Province were started by the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD).

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ndalamei: The excuse being given for not working on the Katunda/Lukulu Road is that the Mongu/Kalabo Road is being worked on. However, did the PF Government negotiate for the funds to work on the Mongu/Kalabo Road? Does the Government think that it can deceive the people of the Western Province by claiming the glory for the works on that road?

Mr Mtolo: They know the truth.

Mr Ndalamei: They know the truth. They know that the MMD negotiated for the loan from China and when the PF came to power, it found contractors working on that road.

Mr Mwale: Like marrying a pregnant woman.

Mr Ndalamei: Mr Speaker, when hon. Ministers and His Honour the Vice-President campaign, they tell our people that if they do not vote for the PF, they will not see development. This is what they are doing. This is the truth. Tax payers’ money is not your money. You were put in the Government to look after our money. You should not claim that you will not develop areas where people do not vote for you. It is not your money.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ndalamei: It is our money. 

Mr Mwale: It is not money for the PF.

Mr Ndalamei: It is not money for the PF.

Mr Mbewe: No!

Mr Ndalamei: It is money for the whole country and the people of Zambia. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwale: Look at them!

Mr Ndalamei: You were just put there to manage the resources on behalf of the people of Zambia.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ndalamei: It is not the PF’s money.

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Mr Mbewe: It will never be.

Mr Mwale: Say it again.

Mr Ndalamei: No! 

Mr Speaker, when I looked at the Budget Speech on road construction, a total of twenty-two projects are being carried out and a length of 2,260 km has been worked on. However, when we look at the roads, they are just concentrated in one region.

Mr Mbewe: Aah, aah!

Mr Ndalamei: Kasama/Mporokoso Road, Mbala/Nakonde Road, Chama/Matumbo Road, Isoka/Muyombe/Lundazi/Chama Road, Mansa/Luwingu Road and Kawambwa/Mushota Road are the only roads being worked on.

Hon. Government Member: Bottom Road.

Mr Ndalamei: The MMD started the works on the Bottom Road.


Mr Ndalamei: Which road has the PF Government started in the Southern Province?


The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

I am interested in following the debate, please.

Mr Mwale: We are also interested.

Mr Ndalamei: The works on the Bottom Road were started by the MMD. The PF found the works underway. 

Mr Mwale: Even the others that you have mentioned.

Mr Ndalamei: When you look at the Western Province, all the roads that the Government included in the Link Zambia 8,000 km Road Project are still at feasibility study level, four years down the line. For example, the Kalongola/Kalabo Road is at feasibility study level, Katunda/Lukulu is at feasibility study level, Limulunga/Lukulu is at feasibility study level, …


Mr Ndalamei: … Luamba/Machile Road is at feasibility study level, Kasempa/Kaoma …

Hon. Opposition Members: Feasibility study!

Mr Ndalamei: … Nangwezi/Sinjembela …

Hon. Opposition Members: Feasibility study!

Mr Ndalamei: … and Jimbe. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Feasibility study!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, on my left!

I think that the hon. Member for Sikongo does not need emissaries to assist him. Just allow the hon. Member to debate.

The hon. Member for Sikongo may continue.

Hon. Member: Hammer, hammer!

Mr Ndalamei: Mr Speaker, all these roads are still at feasibility study level.

Mr Mbewe: Hammer!

Mr Ndalamei: While roads in other regions are being completed, roads in the North-Western and Western provinces are still at feasibility study stage four years down the line.


Mr Ndalamei: Mr Speaker, I am a very disappointed Member of Parliament for Sikongo.


The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Deputy Ministers of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication, and Home Affairs, I hope that this will be the last time to warn you against debating while seated.

The hon. Member for Sikongo may continue.

Mr Mbewe: Hammer, hammer!

Mr Ndalamei: Mr Speaker, on page 7 of the Budget Speech for 2014:

“Mr Speaker, in 2014, the Government will continue to implement the Link Zambia 8,000 km programme. I am happy to report that under this programme which commenced last year, work is progressing well on over 1,500 km of road. This includes the Pedicle Road, Mongu/Kalabo Road and Kalabo/Sikongo Road to the border with Angola.”

Mr Speaker, this was the Budget Speech for 2014. The Government claimed that it had already started working on the Kalabo/Sikongo Road. 


Mr Ndalamei: Mr Speaker, on page 8 of the 2015 Budget it reads:

“… I wish to also inform this august House that the procurement process for the engagement of a contractor for the Kalabo/Sikongo Road has commenced.”

Mr Mbewe: Aah!

Mr Ndalamei: Shame on them, Mr Speaker.


Hon. Opposition Members: Shame!

Mr Kampyongo: Question!

Mr Ndalamei: Mr Speaker, in the 2014 Budget Speech, we were told that the Government had started working on the road.

Mr Mwale: Now, it is at procurement stage.

Mr Ndalamei: In the 2015 Budget, this road is still under the procurement process. What is wrong with this Government, Mr Speaker?


Mr Mwale: Ba Chikwanda.

Mr Ndalamei: Chabwino baende.


The Deputy Chairperson: What is the meaning of that?

Mr Ndalamei: Mr Speaker, it means that it is better that this Government relinquishes power because it is not doing anything. It has failed us. It has failed the people of Sikongo. It is still procuring a contractor for a road after having worked on it.


Mr Ndalamei: Mr Speaker, I do not know whether there is co-ordination between the hon. Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication, and the hon. Minister of Finance. It seems that there is nothing they are doing except to write to please people about doing something throughout the country. People stand and say that there is massive development and construction of roads throughout the country. Where is it?

Mr Mwale: Hammer! Get annoyed.

Mr Ndalamei: Mr Speaker, people are annoyed and they want these people to be voted out ...

Mr Kampyongo: Question!


Mr Ndalamei: … because they have failed.


Mr Ndalamei: As regards the wage freeze for Public Service workers, it is an illegal act. This Government is specialised in inducing by-elections and they cost money.

Mr Mtolo: For workers.

Mr Ndalamei: The Government gets hon. Members of Parliament to resign from the MMD to join the PF and gives them Deputy Ministerial positions. To date, they are still holding those positions.

Mr Sikazwe: So, what do you want?

Mr Ndalamei: This just wastes Government resources. What have you achieved by that? As we speak, they are ferrying Opposition councillors from Lukulu and Kalabo to Mongu so that they should defect the next day. They just specialise in wasting money on by-elections. They want by-elections because they have the one-party State mentality. They want to create a one-party State.

The PF Government wants Zambia to be ruled under dictatorship. It will never manage to do that. That time is long gone. It is wasting money buying off councillors and hon. Members of Parliament in order to gain numbers and thereby turn this country into a one-party State, but it will never manage.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Ndalamei: Mr Speaker, when the MMD was in power, there was a wage freeze during the period to necessitate the qualification for debt relief from the Highly Indebted Poor Countries (HIPC) Initiative. The Ministry of Labour and Social Security went to the Industrial Relations Court and won the case. The court ruled that the wage freeze was illegal. I do not know why the hon. Minister of Finance is not advising his colleagues to do the same.

Mr Chipungu: He has advised. They do not listen.

Mr Ndalamei: Mr Speaker, I understand that he has advised his colleagues in the Government to do that, but they are not listening to him because they are not a listening Government.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ndalamei: Mr Speaker, I will now talk about Sikongo Constituency.

Mr Speaker, since 2011, this Government has failed to complete the projects that were left behind by the preceding Government. When the PF Government took over power in 2011, the wiring of the buildings in Sikongo was completed. This was done in order to take power to Sikongo from Kalabo. To date, the Government has failed to put up a sub-station so that power is connected to Sikongo. A relative to someone in the Government or a cadre was awarded the contract to do this work, but has since abandoned the project. The contractor has not even paid the people he employed. He owes people over K50,000. He is a cadre. We have reported this issue to the Rural Electrification Authority (REA) and to the ministry, but nothing is happening …

Hon. Opposition Member:  He is a cadre.

Mr Ndalamei: … because, maybe, he is a cadre or a relative to someone in the Government. We do not know.

Mr Speaker, the Ministry of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication has put up a tower in Sikongo, but we cannot connect the area because of REA which has failed to manage the project. I am appealing to this Government to terminate this contractor’s contract even if he is a relative to someone in the Government, and bring a new contractor so that we can have power in Sikongo.

 Mr Speaker, I raised a question in the last session concerning the construction of a house at Mabuwa and Mutala. The hon. Minister of Health argued that there was a contractor on site and that the houses were almost complete. We argued on the Floor of this House. As I am speaking now, at Mutala, there is only a slab for the house and in Mabuwa, the house is at window level. People are still walking 60 km to access health services at Sihole. Pregnant mothers and sick people are walking that distance. This Government has just brought misery to the people of Sikongo, and they will not vote for it.

Hon. Opposition Members: And they will not vote for this Government.

Mr Ndalamei: Mr Speaker, I appeal to the hon. Minister of Health to check on these projects which he argued about on the Floor of this House so that these places can be completed before the end of this year. 

Mr Speaker, the MMD left behind a high school, whose construction was supposed to be completed in January, 2014. However, to date, it has not been completed. Therefore, the people are asking: What type of a Government this is which fails to complete even structures it found in place? Last year, almost 9,000 pupils in the Western Province did not go into Grade 10 because there were no school places. The construction of the high school in Libonda is still stagnant. Construction of Sikongo High School is still stagnant. What type of a Government is this? However, our colleagues on your right stand on the Floor of this House and claim that there is massive infrastructure development in the country. Where is that massive development?

Mr Speaker, fifty years after independence, we have people committing suicide because they are left out of the bursary scheme. What a shame.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ndalamei: Mr Speaker, that girl who committed suicide had six points. She applied for a bursary in 2013, …

Hon. Government Members: She.

Mr Ndalamei: … but she was left out on the list of the bursary beneficiaries.

Hon. Government Member: Question!

Mr Ndalamei: Mr Speaker, we were expecting the hon. Minister of Finance to put a student loan scheme in the Budget, but what has he put? The same thing − student bursaries − …

Hon. Opposition Members: And by-elections.

Mr Ndalamei: … and by-elections.

Mr Speaker, I am appealing to this Government to quickly implement the student loan scheme so that poor people from the rural areas can access higher education. 

Mr Speaker, the Government has not paid the farmers their money. Look at them.


Mr Ndalamei: Mr Speaker, farmers supplied their maize through the Food Reserve Agency (FRA) but, to date, they have not been paid their money.

Hon. Opposition Members: The money has gone to by-elections.

Mr Ndalamei: Mr Speaker, the money was channeled towards the just ended by-elections.

Mr Mwale: Shemuna bane.

Hon. Opposition Members: Shame!

Mr Ndalamei: Mr Speaker, peasant farmers are failing to take their children to school because of this failed Patriotic Front (PF) Government.

Mr Mbukalulima: Performance is failing. Look at them.

Mr Ndalamei: Mr Speaker, when the buying season started, we were informed on the Floor of this House that farmers would be paid within fourteen days after delivery of their maize. Is that what has been done?

Hon. Opposition Member: Ask them.

Mr Ndalamei: Mr Speaker, have the farmers been paid within fourteen days?

Hon. Opposition Members: No, they cannot.

Mr Ndalamei: Mr Speaker, this is a broke Government. It has wasted money on by-elections.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ndalamei: Mr Speaker, to conclude my debate …

Hon. Opposition Members: Do not conclude your debate.

Mr Ndalamei: … I will touch on the Barotseland Agreement …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ndalamei: … and the Constitution.


Mr Ndalamei: Mr Speaker, the PF Government thinks that the Constitution belongs to it.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Ndalamei: That is not its Constitution. The Constitution is for the people of Zambia, and the money that was used to draft it was tax payers’ money and not money that belonged to the PF. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ndalamei: Mr Speaker, we are tax payers. We are contributing money this Government is wasting. 

Mr Speaker, firstly, it was said that the Draft Constitution had gone missing at the Ministry of Justice.

Mr Mbulakulima: And John Phiri was there.


Mr Ndalamei: Mr Speaker, after some time, it was said that the Constitution had been found, but a Cabinet meeting had to be held. What do you discuss in your Cabinet meetings?


Mr Ndalamei: Mr Speaker, on the Barotseland Agreement, the people of the Western Province were told to vote for the PF Government in order for the Barotseland Agreement to be restored within ninety days. What has the Government done about this? Nothing. It has just been arresting people. 

Mr Speaker, a stadium was brought to the Western Province. Who asked the Government for a stadium?


Mr Ndalamei: Who wants a stadium from the Government?


Mr Ndalamei: Mr Speaker, we want the restoration of the Barotseland Agreement and not the stadium.


Hon. Opposition Member: You can take it back.

Mr Ndalamei: Mr Speaker, the Government can get its stadium and take it to Muchinga because we do not want it. Take it to Muchinga and we will not even care. What we want is for the Government to restore the Barotseland Agreement …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ndalamei: … which was a contract between it and the people of the Western Province.

Mr Speaker, with these few words, I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwezi): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to add my voice to the debate on the Motion of Supply. 

Mr Speaker, when I stood to debate the President’s Speech, I indicated that if I had powers to stop the opening of Parliament, I would because it does not make sense for me and for the people of Dundumwezi to open Parliament to start debating the 2015 Budget when we had not realised anything from the 2014 Budget. 

Hon. UPND Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Sing’ombe: Mr Speaker, I asked for one day leave and missed the 2015 Budget presentation on Friday, 10th October, 2014 because it did not make sense for the people of Dundumwezi. I want to put it on record that the Patriotic Front (PF) Government has become a liability to the people of Zambia. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! 

Mr Sing’ombe: In 2014, we were told by the hon. Minister of Mines, Energy and Water Development that the PF Government was going to construct a dam at Nkandazovu. The hon. Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Livestock went to Nkandazovu and assured the people there that a dam would be constructed. Now, we are discussing the 2015 Budget. I scanned through the Yellow Book and could not find any budget line for the dam at Nkandazovu.

Mr Speaker, we were told that the Kalomo/Dundumwezi Road would be upgraded to bituminous standard. To date, nothing has happened. The Government has continued to inject a very bad virus of poverty in this country. All we are waiting for is to transfer power from the PF to the United Party for National Development (UPND), …

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sing’ombe: …which has apparently found …

Hon. Government Member: Question!

Mr Sing’ombe: …an anti-virus for the poverty that the PF has injected into this country.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sing’ombe: Mr Speaker, those people of Dundumwezi who have travelled to the Copperbelt are asking in a layman’s language, “Honourable, why is it that from Ndola to Kitwe, there are four roads, two going south and two heading north, when we do not even have a gravel road in Dundumwezi?”


Mr Sing’ombe: Mr Speaker, the Government is working on small roads here in Lusaka so that those who do not have vehicles can walk on. We need those small lanes in Dundumwezi. If you gave us some of those … what are they called?

Dr Kaingu: Pathways!

Mr Sing’ombe: If you give us a pathway in Dundumwezi, we would be very grateful to you. 


Mr Sing’ombe: I am not sure, but I think that it is about 2 metres wide. 


Mr Sing’ombe: That is what we need in Dundumwezi and we will be very grateful to this Government. 

Mr Speaker, this Government has failed to work on a gravel road from Dundumwezi to Choma, the provincial centre. The road is a stretch of only 75 km, but it takes four hours to drive on this stretch. 

Mr Speaker, just three weeks ago, one of the hon. Ministers was in my constituency. I requested her to use a short-cut from Chief Chikanta’s Palace to Kalomo, but she refused because she said she was told the road was bad.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Nkombo: Iyee.

Mr Sing’ombe: She refused to use a short-cut and opted to use a 150 km stretch because the road is slightly better. Hon. Opposition Members of the House are working tooth and nail to ensure that this Government is replaced because it has failed the people of this county. 

Sir, last year, if not the year before, we were told that large sums of money were allocated to start the construction of a retirement house for the sitting President who has not retired yet. I have seen that the reason they were in a hurry to start building His Excellency Michael Chilufya Sata’s House is because they knew that by 2015, this Government would not be able to finance this country. This is very clear. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sing’ombe: Why were you in a hurry to budget for the house of a President who is comfortably accommodated at State House?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sing’ombe: Can someone stand up and explain, especially the hon. Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication, why it was decided that money be allocated to the First Lady? You knew that money would be depleted, but you needed to get mpukunya matobo before the end of your term.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: What does that mean?

Mr Sing’ombe: It means something extra. From time immemorial, this House has never allocated funds to the First Lady. However, for the first time, under the Patriotic Front (PF), it was decided to go against the Constitution and construct a house for His Excellency the President, who is already accommodated at State House, leaving former Presidents, who are retired, without accommodation.

Mr Nkombo: And some of them are dead.

Mr Sing’ombe: Mr Speaker, this Government is also threatening the people of Sichifulo with eviction. The Government has decided to evict people from Sichifulo when the rains are almost coming. Why has the Government decided to be enemies of the people who elected it into power?

Mr Speaker, Dundumwezi Constituency has produced the highest amount of maize in the country and the records are there with the Food Reserve Agency (FRA), but the Government has decided not to give the people a better road for reasons that only it knows. 

Sir, the Ministry of Home Affairs has completely ignored the people of Dundumwezi, especially the Deputy Minister, Hon. Nickson Chilangwa, who has never come to Dundumwezi to investigate why people are being …

Mr Chilangwa: On a point of order, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: No points of order.

Mr Sing’ombe: … shot dead. He has never toured Kalomo District because his people in Luapula are comfortable.

Mr Chilangwa: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: The hon. Deputy Minister you mentioned is Hon. Chilangwa. With that correction you can continue, but I am not allowing points of order.


Mr Sing’ombe: Mr Speaker, Hon. Chilangwa is bitter about Dundumwezi and I will take it that way. 

The Deputy Chairperson: May you, please, desist from bringing into your debate the hon. Deputy Minister who is listening to your debate attentively and trying to follow your submission.

Mr Chilangwa: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

The Deputy Chairperson: No point of order will be allowed. 

Continue, hon. Member.

Mr Sing’ombe: Mr Speaker, our request is that the national cake be shared in a manner that will allow every Zambian to taste it. What I mean is that all Zambians must taste the tax payers’ money. We have continuously talked about the Mwetwe-Wa-Muntu Dam in Nkandanzovu in this House, but it is not indicated in this Budget Speech. 

Mr Speaker, we have been telling this Government about the natural resources we have such as the Bilili Hot Spring in Dundumwezi, but nothing has been done. Tourists want to access this tourist attraction site, but the Ministries of Tourism and Art, and Transport, Works, Supply and Communication have given it a deaf ear. The Bilili Hot Spring is just a few kilometers off the Kalomo/Dundumwezi Road and we want that area to be opened up to tourism. 

Mr Speaker, I want to state that the Ministry of Local Government and Housing has been a let-down to the people of Kalomo and Dundumwezi, in particular. I wish to inform this House that, in 2012, the people of Dundumwezi decided to use their money to procure road equipment. This road equipment has been at Walvis Bay for over a year now and the Ministry of Local Government and Housing has failed to help Kalomo District Council to transport that equipment from there. The money that is required for the transportation of that equipment is K30,000. If we were allowed to use part of our Constituency Development Fund (CDF) to facilitate the movement of the equipment from Walvis Bay to Kalomo, it would have been transported by now and the issues of bad roads would have been history.  

Mr Speaker, the Ministry of Local Government and Housing has, somehow, looked at one community in my constituency known as Nkandanzovu. It is now constructing a road from Nkandanzovu to Kalomo through Nazibula, but the contractor who is responsible for this project has indicated to me that works have not been going on for over a month now because the Government has not released the money. The contractor, who is working on the Nakatala/Nkandanzovu Road, is also not working because this Government has failed to release funds for the works to continue. I think it is honourable for the Government to tell the nation at large that it has failed and needs to be substituted. The people of Zambia will be very glad to substitute this Government with competent people who will manage the affairs of this country. 

Mr Speaker, lastly, let me adopt the words of the hon. Member for Sikongo who said that the Constitution of Zambia is not yours. The earlier the Government releases the Constitution of Zambia, the better for it. It might even create an avenue for the people to forgive it for the many wrongs it has done. 

With these few words, I thank you, Sir.
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

(Debate Adjourned)


The Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communications (Mr Mukanga): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agree to.


The House adjourned at 1250 hours until 1430 hours on Tuesday, 21st October, 2014.