DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE FOURTH SESSION OF THE ELEVENTH ASSEMBLY

Friday, 14th November, 2014

The House met at 0900 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

__________

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

The Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication, Chief Whip, and Acting Leader of Government Business in the House (Mr Mukanga): Mr Speaker, I rise to acquaint the House with the business it will consider next week.

Mr Speaker, on Tuesday, 18th November, 2014, the Business of the House will commence with Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Then, the House will resolve into Committee of Supply on the Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure for 2015, and the following heads will be considered:

Head 07 – Office of the Auditor-General
Head 06 – Public Service commission – Office of the President
Head 08 – Cabinet Office – Office of the President

Mr Speaker, on Wednesday, 19th November, 2014, the Business of the House will begin with Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will  consider a Private Member’s  Motion titled, “Formulate Policy on Heritage Sites” to be moved by the hon. Member of Parliament for Rufunsa Constituency, Mr K. Chipungu, MP. The House will, thereafter, resolve into Committee of Supply on the 2015 Budget to consider the following Heads of Expenditure:

Head 17 – Ministry of Foreign Affairs 
Head 09 – Teaching Service Commission – Office of the President

Mr Speaker, on Thursday, 20th November, 2014, the Business of the House will start with Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will resolve into Committee of Supply on the 2015 Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure, and the following Heads will be considered:

Head 10 - Police and Prison Service Commission – Office of the President
Head 04 – Ministry of Gender and Child Development
Head 12 – Commission for Investigations – Office of the President

Mr Speaker, on Friday, 20th November, 2014, the Business of the House will commence with Questions for Oral Answer, if there will be any. After that, there will be presentation of Government Bills, if any. Then, the House will resolve into Committee of Supply on the 2015 Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure to consider the following Heads:

Head 13 – Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs
Head 14 – Ministry of Mines, Energy and Water Development
Head 85 – Ministry of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection

I thank you, Sir.

_________

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

DISBURSEMENT OF RUFUNSA PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCY DEVELOPMENT FUNDS
223. Mr Chipungu (Rufunsa) asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing:

(a)    when the 2013 Constituency Development Fund (CDF) for Rufunsa Parliamentary Constituency would be released;

(b)    what had caused the delay in releasing the money; and 

(c)    whether interest would be paid, considering the delay in releasing the money, in order to pay contractors that had been inconvenienced.

The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr Tembo): Mr Speaker, following the misappropriation of the 2013 Constituency Development Fund (CDF) for Rufunsa, my ministry requested the Ministry of Finance to replace the funds. The Ministry of Finance has since advised my ministry to vary some Votes within the 2014 Budget to facilitate the quick completion of the stalled projects in the constituency.

Mr Speaker, the delay in releasing the funds has been due to the non-availability of funds in the ministry. The ministry was also awaiting the conclusion of the Auditor-General’s forensic audit on the K1.3 million that was misappropriated. The report on the audit has since been received.

Mr Speaker, no interest will be paid by the ministry. However, the disbursement will be expedited.

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Chipungu: Mr Speaker, this is the first time something like this has happened since I came to this august House in 2006. When will the money be released? This is an urgent matter. I am aware that the ministry has been helping us, but I want to know when we will get the money.

The Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr Chenda): Mr Speaker, we share the concerns of the people of Rufunsa over the money that was stolen from them, and it is in that regard that I assure the hon. Member and the people of Rufunsa that they will get their money before the end of December, 2014. We are doing everything possible to source the funds. We are pressing the Treasury to release the funding for the Votes that we have varied to enable us to pay that money. So, we will definitely pay the money not later than December, 2014. Everybody here knows that, as we go towards the end of the year, the Government …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order, on the left!

Mr Chenda: Mr Speaker, I was just saying that, as we go towards the end of the year, the Government usually releases funds for those Votes that were under-funded. It is also our sincere hope that, as we get this money, we will prioritise replacing the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) for Rufunsa, which was misappropriated.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Mr Speaker, it is a notorious fact …

Interruptions

Mr Mbewe: … that most councils misapply the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) because of poor funding. Are there plans to disburse CDF allocations directly to the offices of the Members of Parliament so that there is proper accountability? 

Mr Chenda: Mr Speaker, I have stated on the Floor of this House before that there are serious flaws in the manner the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) is administered under the current guidelines. We are working on reviewing these guidelines so that we can deal with the issues that have led to misappropriation, lack of accountability and unaudited projects. This is a matter of great concern to all of us, and it is my sincere hope that, with the review of the guidelines, sufficient internal control and check measures will be put in place to enhance accountability so that the funds are expended on the intended purpose.  

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Speaker: I know that this is a subject that is very close to our hearts but, please, bear in mind, as you ask supplementary questions, that we are considering Question 223. I repeat: We are considering Question 223. Go through it.

The hon. Member for Senga Hill, please, ask your question. 

Laughter 

Mr Simbao (Senga Hill): Mr Speaker, I am concerned and would like to learn from the hon. Minister if he is having problems in disbursing the 2013 Constituency Development Fund (CDF) allocations. Hon. Minister, 2014 is coming to an end. Is there hope that you will disburse the 2014 CDF for Senga Hill? 

Mr Speaker: I have just guided that we are considering supplementary questions to Question 223. 

Hon. Member for Chembe, you may pose your question. 

Mr Mbulakulima (Chembe): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister said that the monies were misappropriated, not misapplied. Who misappropriated it and what action has been taken?

Mr Chenda: Mr Speaker, I do not have the list of names of the people involved here, but the information is there at the ministry. However, I assure this august House that we took action as soon as we discovered the fraud. All the officers who were involved were arrested and are facing prosecution. This matter is now in the public domain. So, the names are available in our office. We acted with lightning speed and handed everyone who was involved over to law enforcement agencies, and I am glad to report that arrests were made and prosecutions are under way. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Pande (Kasempa): Mr Speaker, when the hon. Minister responded to Question 223, he referred to new guidelines being worked out. Will the guidelines, after being worked out, be brought to the House for hon. Members’ input, as has been done in the past? 

Mr Chenda: Mr Speaker, our intention is to have a consultative meeting with hon. Members of Parliament before we finalise the guidelines. They are major stakeholders. So, we want their input and will take this into consideration. 

Mr Speaker, I thank you. 

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo (Mumbwa): Mr Speaker, I seek clarification on the guidelines. 

Hon. Minister, before we receive the new guidelines, can you assure this House that the one that demands the completion of projects within the financial year in which the funds are disbursed will be put aside, considering the fact that monies have not been disbursed yet and it will not be possible to complete any project that will be initiated following the disbursement of the funds? 

Mr Chenda: Mr Speaker, we will use these guidelines until the new ones have been approved and effected. 

Sir, perhaps, I did not emphasise the fact that all the constituencies will receive the 2014 allocation by the end of the year. That is an assurance that has been given to us. I share the concern of all hon. Members who have not yet received the funds because, ideally, the money should be paid early for works to get started. Unfortunately, for obvious reasons, such as a lack of resources, this has not been possible. Suffice it for me to say that we have done everything in our power to ensure that there is a speedy release of the money as soon as the ministry receives it. We will complete all ongoing projects using the current CDF guidelines.

I thank you, Sir. 

Prof. Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister make it abundantly clear that the old guidelines are still in force so that councils, such as Mongu District Council, which is implementing imaginary guidelines under the pretext that they are new, can follow them while we await the new ones.

Mr Chenda: Mr Speaker, I want to make it abundantly clear that the current guidelines are in force and all local authorities are expected to comply with them.  

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Mucheleka (Lubansenshi): Mr Speaker, when will the new guidelines be put in place? The hon. Minister has been talking about introducing these new guidelines for some time now without really indicating when this will be done to ensure that the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), including that for Rufunsa, is ring-fenced and used for the intended purpose. 

Mr Chenda: Mr Speaker, I cannot give a definite period. However, I would like to assure all hon. Members that we are in a hurry to effect the new guidelines because we are all affected by the poor performance of the local authorities in the administration of the CDF. So, the new guidelines are long overdue. Currently, we are doing everything possible to conclude this matter. Like I said, before we conclude the guidelines, we will engage our stakeholders and expect their input. 

I thank you, Sir. 

EXPANSION OF NCHELENGE STATE PRISON

224. Mr Mpundu (Nchelenge) asked the Minister of Home Affairs what progress had been made on the expansion of Nchelenge State Prison, as of August, 2014. 

The Deputy Minister Home Affairs (Mr Chilangwa): Mr Speaker, the Government has plans to expand Nchelenge State Prison in 2015, as the project has been captured in the 2015 National Budget. The expansion works will start with the construction of two cells, an ablution block and a perimeter wire fence.

Mr Speaker, I thank you. 

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, what is the present capacity of the prison? Further, what will its capacity be after the expansion? I would also like to know why the expansion is necessary.

The Minister of Home Affairs (Dr Simbyakula): Mr Speaker, the current inmate population is 165 and there is serious congestion. That is why we want to increase the capacity.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muchima (Ikeleng’i): Mr Speaker, does the expansion of Nchelenge State Prison entail the extension of the current structures or the building of new ones? If it entails the expansion of the current buildings, how sure is the hon. Minister that the structures will last, considering that some of them were built before Independence? 

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Speaker, we will construct two new cells. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Shakafuswa (Katuba): Mr Speaker, looking at the situation on the ground, does the hon. Minister not think that he needs to find more buildings to use as prisons, considering the fact that his party’s different camps are fighting every day?

Laughter 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Speaker, I am not sure I understand the question. We will construct two new cells in Nchelenge each of which will have a capacity of forty inmates. That will bring the total for the two cells to eighty inmates.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Pande: Mr Speaker, is the expansion of the prison an indication that crime has increased in Nchelenge? If so, what are the reasons?

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Speaker, most of the prison infrastructure was constructed during the colonial period when the population of the country was very small. In fact, the population of Zambia at Independence was 3 million, but it is now around 14 million. Naturally, crime rates have increased. So, we need to expand the infrastructure.

I thank you, Sir. 

SALE OF KITWE NURSERY AND RESOURCE CENTRE HOUSES

225. Mr Mutale (Kwacha) asked the Minister of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection when the houses at Kitwe Nursery and Research Centre in Kwacha Parliamentary Constituency would be sold to employees who were sitting tenants.

The Minister of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection (Mr Kapeya): Mr Speaker, the Government has no intention of selling the Kitwe Nursery and Research Centre houses in Kwacha Parliamentary Constituency to employees who are sitting tenants because the houses are in a forest research and nursery area and are institutional houses. The guidelines on the sale of Government houses clearly state that no houses in camps are to be sold. So, the Government did not sell the houses because doing so could have negatively affected the operation of the centre.

I thank you, Sir.

CONSTRUCTION OF MODERN BUS STATION IN KALABO

226. Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central) asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing when a modern bus station would be constructed in Kalabo District.

The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr Kufuna): Mr Speaker, it is the policy of the Government to construct modern bus stations in conjunction with local authorities, including Kalabo District Council. The Government is currently constructing a road between Mongu and Kalabo, which is expected to lead to large numbers of travellers going to the district. As such, the council is working on the design of a modern bus station in anticipation of increased demands.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Miyutu: Mr Speaker, when the questions asked concern rural areas, the response from the Government is usually that feasibility studies are being undertaken, that designs are still being made or that there are no funds, which is very disheartening. The question I asked was about when the bus stop would be built, not what is being done.
 
Mr Speaker, I feel that the Government has not answered …

Mr Speaker: Just ask a supplementary question.

Mr Miyutu: Mr Speaker, when will those designs be translated into an actual modern bus station in Kalabo?

Mr Kufuna: Mr Speaker, the design works started this year. Initially, there had been no need for a bus station because people used water transport. Now that we expect a huge number of travellers to go through Kalabo because of the construction of the road, we have thought of designing a modern bus station. The designs, once completed, will be sent to the ministry with a Bill of Quantities (BOQ), after which we will have to budget for it and request for funds from the Ministry of Finance.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Musokotwane (Liuwa): Mr Speaker, …

Mr Miyutu: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Continue, hon. Member for Liuwa.

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, it is not correct to say people in Kalabo have always used water transport. We have also been using Land Rovers since the 1960s. Now that the road is being constructed, can the hon. Minister confirm whether the construction of the bus station is in the 2014 Budget?

Mr Chenda: Mr Speaker, in the past, I have said that we have a backlog of contracts that have not yet been executed because of a lack of funds. It is in this regard that we are being very cautious in embarking on new projects. Priority is being given to the completion of ongoing projects. So, it is difficult for us to confirm whether this project will actually take off within the coming financial year.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Livune (Katombola): Mr Speaker, how long will the bus station take to design? 

Mr Chenda: Mr Speaker, it is our sincere hope that the design of the modern bus station in Kalabo will be completed quickly so that we include it in our future plans.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mutelo (Lukulu West): Mr Speaker, whether a district uses road, air or water transport, it needs a terminus. Does the hon. Minister not consider it offensive to say that Kalabo did not need a terminus because people there used water transport? Do all areas that use water transport not have termini? 

Mr Chenda: Mr Speaker, I do not know if a water stop exists. 

Laughter

Hon. Member: It is a harbour.

Mr Chenda: Yes, it is a harbour.

Mr Speaker, the fact is that we need to provide a safe environment for all travelling members of the public regardless of whether they use road or water transport. It is for this reason that we have asked the council to come up with the design and project proposal for the construction of the bus station. 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Muchima: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has said that the Government will start from designing, then, go to construction and, thereafter, look for money before developing the plan or project proposal. Is the process in which a project is executed before it is planned unique to Kalabo? If it is not, what is the ministry doing for other parts of the country, where people mostly use market places, which do not even have toilets, as bus stops? 

Mr Chenda: Mr Speaker, we encourage our local authorities to plan their areas properly and provide for the social amenities that are a necessity in the administration of their localities so that we can handle these issues in a much more financially-prudent manner. To plan is to think ahead. As for the building of bus stations, it is an on-going process.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Hamudulu (Siavonga): Mr Speaker, after the question asked by the hon. Member for Ikeleng’i, I thought that my question would be addressed, but that has not happened. The question is: Is the proposed design for a modern bus station in Kalabo a unique one or has it been used elsewhere so that it can just be book-lifted?

Mr Chenda: Mr Speaker, we do not encourage a prototype approach to development because we want each local authority to come up with solutions best suited to their unique local needs. The designs for infrastructure should be in accordance with their preferences.

I thank you, Sir.

_________

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the
Chair]

ESTIMATES OF REVENUE AND EXPENDITURE (INCLUDING CAPITAL AND CONSTITUTIONAL AND STATUTORY EXPENDITURE FOR THE YEAR 1ST JANUARY TO 31ST DECEMBER, 2015

VOTE 01 – (Office of the President – State House – Headquarters – K43,516,920).

The Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication, Chief Whip, and Acting Leader of Government Business in the House (Mr Mukanga): Mr Chairperson, I thank you most sincerely for according me the opportunity to present the 2015 Estimates of Recurrent and Capital Expenditure for the Office of the President, State House. 

Mr Chairperson, State House is a key Government institution. It is also the Seat of the Presidency of the Republic of Zambia. As the apex institution in the Government, State House plays a critical over-arching and supervisory role in providing national guidance and overall policy direction to the country. Given this mandate, the policy objective and role of State House has been summarised in the following Mission statement:

“To deliver inspirational and visionary leadership to the nation and to promote inclusive governance in order to achieve a better life for all Zambians”.

Sir, in support of the Mission statement, and to give State House a specific focus and direction for its operations, the institution’s goal is:

“To achieve effective and efficient advisory and support services for enhanced execution of executive functions by His Excellency the President”. 

Mr Chairperson, the institution has, thus, made significant progress towards the successful undertaking of its planned programmes and activities. Further, the institution successfully implemented the Utility Bills Expenditure Control Measures developed by the Government during the course of the year.

Sir, for the information of the hon. Members, State House functions are performed through two key departments, namely, Presidential Affairs and Human Resource and Administration. The Budget Estimates for 2015 will enable State House to undertake its planned programmes and activities, as stated in the Yellow Book. It is for all these programmes that I appeal to the hon. Members to support the estimates of State House, amounting to K43,516,920, as presented.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Chairperson, as I rise to debate the Vote for State House, I want to state very clearly and candidly that I do so with a very heavy heart. This morning, members of the public read the screaming headline, “Guy Scott Expelled” in the Daily Nation. I will not debate an individual, Dr Guy Scott, but an institution, the Presidency of this country.

Mr Chairperson, the Acting Leader of Government Business in the House has, on the Floor of this House, indicated to us how important the institution of State House is. He has stated that it is the apex institution that provides guidance to the nation.  So, if there is chaos in that institution, there will be chaos in the nation.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: The Patriotic Front (PF) has deliberately induced chaos in this nation and exposed the country to danger.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: For the first time, out of greed and desperation for power, that Government on your right has decided to create a Constitutional crisis in this country. We are fortunate that Zambia is a very peaceful country, but we should not take peace for granted and allow a situation in which …

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: … individuals who are overzealous …

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: … in wanting to get power can induce chaos in this country.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, if there is no President in a country, it follows that there is equally no Cabinet. So, those colleagues on your right should not be sitting in this House.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: They should all leave this House because of the act of treachery they perpetrated last night. Why should they decide to deliberately cause anarchy in this country barely one week after the death of our President? For the first time in the history of this country, yesterday, some party cadres went to State House and invaded the Seat of Government power.

Hon. Government Members: Where?

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: It was reported on television and in the papers.

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, it is a fact that some of their cadres have been arrested.

Mr Muntanga: Yes.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, no matter who is in State House, that institution must be protected and respected until a legally recognised way of removing somebody who holds that office has been used to that effect. We cannot allow anarchy or a political party to allow the overzealousness of some of its members to plunge this country into chaos.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear! Shame!

Mr Mwiimbu: We should not allow that. 

We have been advised that our colleagues are women and men who believe in the rule of law, but it has transpired that they do not. Even elder individuals who claim that they have been in this House since Independence are in the forefront of causing anarchy in this country.

Hon. UPND Members: Shame!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, the problems of the Ruling Party should not be imposed on State institutions. We are aware that some cadres went to the house of the Secretary to the Cabinet intending to harm him for performing Government duties.

Hon. UPND Members: Shame!

Mr Mwiimbu: We must be ashamed, as a nation, …

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: … and stop such a situation from prevailing in this country. The Ruling Party must sort out its problems outside the context of Government institutions.

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, assuming their overzealousness prevails, how will they replace the Acting President without following Article 38 of the Constitution of Zambia?

Dr Kaingu: Yes.

Mr Muntanga: Kamuvwila.

Mr Mwiimbu: We are aware that there will be a Cabinet Meeting today, but I wonder how those who sat and expelled their President will attend it. Let them tell us.

Mr Shakafuswa: Who will chair it?

Mr Muntanga: Answer.

Mr Mwiimbu: You are creating anarchy and provoking the people of this country. Do not do it. If you are popular, go to a convention and elect yourselves there.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, we have witnessed unprecedented levels of indiscipline in this country, whereby Cabinet discussions are now being exposed to the public media.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: We are now aware of what you discuss in the Cabinet because of the wrangles you have. You are aware that all of you are under oath under Article 52 of the Constitution of Zambia. However, you are very irresponsible, as individuals.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, there is no doubt in our mind that elections will be held in less than eighty days. Why does the Ruling Party not conduct its processes without causing problems in the nation? We know that we will have a Presidential by-election in less than eighty days.

Mr Kampyongo rose.

Mr Hamudulu: On a point of order? Aah!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, I support the Vote because it is an institutional Vote, not one for an individual. I am also aware that the Government hon. Members may not even be in the House in the next eighty days.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: They may even be somewhere near that door (pointing at the entrance door to the Assembly Chamber) …

Laughter

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: … because of their conduct. The conduct of our colleagues in the Cabinet is very unbecoming

Mr Chairperson, may I also advise my colleagues …

Mr Kalaba: On a point of order, Sir.

Hon. UPND Members: Go ahead.

The Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Member, just resume your seat so that I can guide the House.

Hon. Members, because of the situation in which we have found ourselves, we have started considering these individual Heads this time. Were it not for the unfortunate circumstances that we were in, we would concluded the debate on the Budget in the first week of December, 2014. So, I appeal to both my left and right to try, as much as possible, to debate the Heads.

Mr Kalaba: Yes.

The Chairperson: That way, we will move faster. Otherwise, we may be forced to have our Christmas here, which will be unfortunate. Therefore, we should not dwell too much on what is happening out there, but try, as much as possible, to dwell on the issue under discussion. With that piece of advice, I will not allow you to raise a point of order, but appeal to Hon. Mwiimbu to confine himself to the issue under discussion.

Mr Mwiimbu: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. I will confine my debate to the issue at hand.

Mr Chairperson, if there is no President, how do members of the Ruling Party consult over the matters that we are debating?

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: If there is no President, how do they manage the affairs of the country?

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: If there is no President, how do they get guidance?

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: As far as our colleagues are concerned, there is no President.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Therefore, the nation is alarmed and apprehensive that all the issues that are under consideration cannot proceed smoothly because there is no President.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

An hon. Member interjected.

Mr Mwiimbu: He is not acting, they have expelled him. 

Mr Muntanga: No plan.

Mr Mwiimbu: There is also no Vice-President. If you expel an individual who holds both the Presidency and the Vice-Presidency, then, we have neither a President nor a Vice-President.  That is the issue that I am raising. There is chaos in the nation.

Mr Chairperson, I would have raised a number of issues about the Vote because I thought that the hon. Minister of Finance would consult the President on the issues that I meant to raise. Now that there is no President or Vice-President, I do not know whom he will consult. That is the dilemma in which I find myself and it is the same dilemma in which our colleagues will find themselves. 

Sir, there is a plea from the Presidency for us to support the Budget. However, if there is no one occupying that office, who is making the plea? That is the constitutional crisis I am saying those colleagues, who are looking down (pointing at hon. Government Members), have caused in this country.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Who is appealing to us? Will we be blamed if we ask the House to abandon the whole Budget Debate until there is a President in State House? We will not be blamed because of the Constitutional crisis that the PF has created. Let its members reflect on their conduct over this matter.
 
Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Sir, let them think about the nation, not themselves and their friends. 

Mr Chairperson, I salute Hon. Kambwili for the statement he issued.

I am much obliged, Sir.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: Let me say this to guide the House: For now, we should take the views being expressed in the newspapers and other media as such; just as views being expressed.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

The Chairperson: What is the “Aah” about? 

I am merely guiding. Otherwise, when you say “Aah”, it means that we should not be meeting now, which I do not think is the situation. So, let us debate. However, as we do so, we should take whatever is reported in the newspapers as should be taken as mere newspaper reports. If you say that there is currently no Government, it means that Parliament should not be sitting, which is not the position.

Ms Imenda (Luena): Mr Chairperson, I hope I will be brief. 

Mr Chairperson, we have been told by the Acting Leader of Government Business in the House what State House is all about. The Presidency provides national guidance and delivers leadership. It also provides advisory services for State functions and deals with Presidential affairs. 

Mr Chairperson, given that definition and mission of the institution, it needs to be given the respect that it deserves.

Mr Mwanza: Yes!

Ms Imenda: Mr Chairperson, I want to comment on some sentiments that have been expressed, especially on the Floor of this House. 

Mr Chairperson, to say that, that Seat is only for indigenous black Zambians is very discriminatory and against our Constitution.

Mr Mwale: Correct.

Ms Imenda: Mr Chairperson, when I was sworn in as a Member of Parliament, I swore to protect and uphold the Constitution. Therefore, I would not like to associate myself, and even this House, with divisive sentiments because all of us have sworn to protect the Constitution of Zambia, which is very clear on citizenship and related matters. There are Sections 4 and 11 of the Constitution, which people can go and read to know what they say. However, I just want to talk about Section 23, which prohibits the discriminatory treatment of people by any person or written law on the basis of their race, colour, tribe, sex and similar characteristics. According to this Constitutional provision, the current Acting President is a Zambian who should be treated as such. It was mentioned that, because the person who is in that position is of a different pigmentation from us, the colonial masters have come back to rule us. May I find out from you whether this person was appointed by Queen Elizabeth II or by the Zambian Government.

The Chairperson: Just a second, hon. Member.

Hon. Member, I have guided that, if we veer from discussing the Budget for State House, as an institution, we are bound to lose track. I think, the issue here is the Budget for State House, irrespective of who is there. 

You may continue. 

Ms Imenda: Mr Chairperson, thank you for that guidance. 

Mr Chairperson, as we look at the Budget for State House, it is very difficult to divorce ourselves from some controversies that surround us. At the end of the day, we will vote. However, if there is confusion surrounding the institution on whose Vote we are debating, then, more confusion will follow. It is on that basis that I thought I should clarify some issues. I have to vote with a free conscience. 

Mr Speaker, what was removed by our forefathers in 1964 was a system of oppression and discrimination that existed during the colonial days, ... 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Imenda: ... not the people who were in charge then or their colour. They were against the political system used in running the country. If we follow the path of our former colonial masters and bring back the same system, then, what will we be doing? Since Independence, we have had people of different races serve the Government of this country. Examples are Mr John Skinner, Mr Brian Doyle and Mr Aaron Milner. Their skin colour was different from mine, if I am not mistaken. Much later, when the multi-party dispensation was brought back, we had Mr Dipak Patel, Mr Suresh Desai, Mr Simon Zukas and others serve in the Government.

Mr Mbulakulima: And Mbulakulima.

Laughter

Ms Imenda: Mr Chairperson, as we deliberate on this Vote, let us bear in mind that the Presidency needs to be protected from any discrimination. I thought I should register those sentiments on the Floor of this House. 

Thank you very much, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza (Solwezi West): Mr Chairperson, I wish to add my voice to the debate on this very important Vote on State House. I do not want to dwell on what my colleagues have already talked about because I share their sentiments. Therefore, I will go straight into discussing the budget for State House. 

Mr Chairperson, firstly, I wish to state that I think that the Patriotic Front (PF) Government has done very well in looking after State House. Its cleanliness is exemplary in the Sub-Saharan region. I have been to Namibia and seen the State House there. It is very beautiful inside, but does not look so good outside. I feel that our State House looks very beautiful today.

Dr Kaingu: You see, we tell you the truth (pointing at hon. Government Members).

Mr Mbulakulima interjected.

Laughter 

Mr Mwanza: However, Mr Chairperson, as we have been told by the Acting Leader of Government Business in the House, State House is responsible for the policy direction of our nation. Therefore, I appeal to the hon. Ministers in the next Government to keep the grounds of their ministries like those of State House, which should be a beacon for all.

Mr Mbulakulima: You will be an hon. Minister very soon.

Mr Mwanza: I have seen that some ministries’ backyards are terribly filthy, unlike State House, which is very clean. I hope and trust that the in-coming hon. Ministers, who are listening, will ensure that the surroundings of their institutions are clean, not the way they are currently.

Dr Kaingu: Yes, their environment is filthy.

Mr Mwanza: Secondly, I know that walkways have been created at State House, which is very good, but people from Ifumba in Solwezi West Constituency or Kalengelenge will not support that because there are no roads in their areas. So, why should we spend money on pathways where people can walk or cycle? It is not right to spend money on such luxury and we should not support it. We should support equal distribution of wealth in the country. There are no roads in Ifumba and Kalengelenge, but State House, here in Lusaka, has walkways. Therefore, I wish to appeal to the in-coming Government, since our colleagues are expelling their President, to do the correct thing in this regard.

Mr Speaker, thirdly, I note that Apollo Enterprises Limited or whatever it is called has been involved in decorating State House since 2006. Why is this so? Is it the only company in this country?

Laughter 

Mr Mwanza: There are many contractors in this country that can do the same work at State House.

Mr Mufalali: Who is the owner?

Mr Mwanza: I do not know the owner.

Laughter 

Mr Mwanza: I would like my fellow hon. Members to find out who the owner of Apollo is because, to me, this company is monopolising work at State House, which is not fair to other Zambians who are not being given a chance to participate …

Dr Kaingu: So, is the money for this Vote going to Apollo?

Mr Mwanza: … in improving the appearance of State House. Apollo is being given preferential treatment but, I think, next time there is this discussion, Apollo must not be seen near State House because there are more competent companies in Zambia that can carry out the same work.

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza: Mr Chairperson, I would like to say that ...

Hon. Member: Apollo.

Laughter 

Mr Mwanza: ... security maintenance at State House is excellent.

Mr Mwale: Is it Apollo, again, that carries out the security maintenance?

Mr Mwanza: I do not know who is doing it but, whoever it is is doing a good job. I think that State House is, today, better than it was during the days of the United National Independence Party (UNIP) and, maybe, during the days of the late President Dr Chiluba. I do not know whether it is Apollo or another company doing this work.

Laughter 

Mr Mwanza: Mr Chairperson, I insist that State House is a respectable institution that must be treated as such. Therefore, I would like to pat our colleagues in the Ruling Party on the back for looking after that institution well. We, in the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD), respected the Presidency. His Excellency Mr Rupiah Banda will go down in history as a person who was respected throughout the world both when he was Acting President and when he became President of Zambia. I do not know why our colleagues should not do the same. That is why I agree with my brother here, the hon. Member of Parliament for Mwandi, that we should emulate and consult the professionals here to ensure that a development focus is identified.

Dr Kaingu: Thank you. Nili nanzelu maningi, ine. 

Laughter 

Mr Mwanza: Mr Chairperson, having said that, I support this Vote, but not the increase in its allocation. The K43 million that the Acting Leader of Government Business in the House talked about is enough. 

Mr Chairperson, I would like to end my discussion by saying that Apollo Enterprises Limited should not be involved in the works at State House the next time we approve this Vote.

Thank you, Sir.

Laughter 

The Minister of Youth and Sport (Mr Kambwili): Mr Chairperson, thank you very much for according me the opportunity to say a few words on the Vote for State House. 

Indeed, Mr Chairperson, like many other speakers have said, State House is a very important institution that must not be treated lightly. When we were in the Opposition, I think that we stated that we were not happy with the way State House was being looked after in terms of its gardens and general cleanliness. So, my contribution today is very short because I just want to say that the Patriotic Front (PF) has been vindicated. We said that when we came into office, we would make sure that State House is well looked after. Therefore, I want to pay tribute to the late President for his personal commitment to making sure that the grounds at State House looked attractive. For many years, there was nothing to write home about in as far as the grounds at State House were concerned. 

Mr Mufalali: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Look at how the area behind State House near the Golf Club looks today. So, you see that the PF is a pragmatic Government that believes that things can be done. Indeed, things have been done at State House.

Mr Mufalali: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, in supporting the Vote, let me also state that the issues being raised here about the PF expelling its President are not true. I am a member of the Central Committee and I know of no meeting at which the Central Committee sat to expel His Honour Dr Guy Scott. As far as we are concerned, as the PF, Dr Scott is the Acting President. He has not been expelled. If there is anybody thinking of expelling the Acting President, he is not in his right frame of mind.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, although the President has passed on, we do not want to see State House revert to being a dirty place in Lusaka. We want the status quo to be maintained. It can even be made cleaner than it is looking today. 

Mr Chairperson, once again, let me pay tribute to the late President, Mr Michael Chilufya Sata, my mentor, the person with whom I started the PF and the person who taught us that things can be done. He left us with the belief that things can be done better. May his soul rest in peace.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to conclude. 

Mr Chairperson, I appreciate all the hon. Members who have debated. However, I would like to state that State House is a respectable institution and the Patriotic Front (PF) will continue to maintain it the way it currently is. I would like to state that every serious Zambian and hon. Member is supposed to commend the PF for the cleanliness at State House.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: There used to be many complaints, Mr Chairperson, with people asking how they could clean their homes when State House was not as clean as it should be. Now, an example has been set for each one of us and a legacy created. We should take it upon ourselves, as Zambians, to emulate what has been done at State House so that Zambia can be a better place to live in. 

Mr Chairperson, having heard various comments from hon. Members, especially Hon. Mwiimbu, who claimed that the Acting President has been expelled, I think that it is important that we correct the record. 

Mr Chairperson, Cap. 12 of the Laws of Zambia does not permit the sharing of incorrect information. So, it is not right to quote wrong information from institutions. Let us feed the people out there with the correct information. The Acting President is still in his position. He has not been expelled by any political party. The PF is a law-abiding political party and has lawyers who have read everything. We cannot do that ...

Interruptions

Mr Mukanga: We will never do that. We are level-headed people who will respect the Constitution. So, we have followed every Constitutional provision and will continue to do so. Further, the people out there should know that we are united and doing all we can to ensure …

Interruptions

Mr Mukanga: … that we are, again, voted into that State House.

Interruptions

Mr Mukanga: For now, everybody should be patient and wait. We are doing all we can to ensure that we come back.

Laughter

Mr Mukanga: We need that State House and I know that it will bounce back to us because people have confidence in us.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, Hear!

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, having said what I have said, I would like to pay tribute to the late President and the First Lady for the good work that they did at State House by maintaining a standard that all of us will have to follow not only in our ministries, but also in our homes, shops, and wherever we are.

Thank you very much, Mr Chairperson.

VOTE 01/01 – (Office of the President – State House – Headquarters K43,516,920).

Prof. Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3000 – Personal Emoluments, Activity 003 – Salaries Division III – K6,667,920. Why is there an increment of about K2,500? Further, on Programme 3001 – General Administration, Activity 011 – Utility Bills – K3,940,800, why is there a reduction?

The Deputy Minister in the Vice-President’s Office (Mr Mwango): Mr Chairperson, on Programme 3000, Activity 003 – Salaries Division, the increase is partly due to the re-classification and upgrading of salary scales for selected positions within Division III – K6,667,920, and the inclusion of the Housing and Fuel Allowance components, which were previously captured under Division I.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 3001 – General Administration, Activity 011 – Utility Bills – K3,940,800, the reduction is a result of the cost-saving measures that have been implemented at State House. What has been done is that boreholes have been drilled and meters installed in individual houses. So, the various households now pay for themselves.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Miyanda (Mapatizya): Mr Chairperson, may have clarification on Programme 3135 – State House General Operations, Activity 005 – Management of State House Wild Animals – K417,960. Why is there a huge increase in the allocation to wild animals when they can be returned to Kafue National Park and the money used to build a road in my constituency, where there is no road?

Mr Mwango: Mr Chairperson, the increase is due to the increase in the population of the animals, introduction of new species and rise in the prices of animal supplementary feed and veterinary services.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 01/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 02 – (Office of the Vice-President – K21,387,626)

Mr Mukanga: Sir, I rise to present the 2015 Estimates of Expenditure for the Office of the Vice-President. 

Mr Chairperson, as you may be aware, Article 45 of the Constitution of the Republic of Zambia provides for the Office of the Vice-President. According to Government Gazette Notice Number 183 of 2012, on Statutory Functions and Composition of Government Portfolios, the Office has been allocated the following portfolio functions:

(a)    Parliamentary Business;

(b)    Disaster Management and Drought Mitigation; and

(c)    Resettlements.

Mr Chairperson, being the second highest office in the nation, the Office of the Vice-President takes care of cross-cutting issues and provides leadership on Government Business in Parliamentary matters. In implementing these portfolio functions, the Office of the Vice-President is guided by a strategic mission statement, which is:

“To provide support services to the Presidency, facilitate the effective conduct of Government Business in Parliament, and implement resettlement and disaster risk management programmes in order to enhance good governance and empowerment of vulnerable households”.

Mr Chairperson, the Parliamentary Business Division has been allocated K3,452,830 in the 2015 Budget. The division assists the Leader of Government Business in the House to co-ordinate Government business in this august House and plays the role of liaison between the Executive and the Legislature in order to enhance accountability and promote good governance. In playing the liaison role, the division facilitates the effective conduct of Government business in Parliament by expeditiously processing all Parliamentary business, such as Action-Taken Reports, Parliamentary Questions and various information agenda and memoranda from the Executive. In addition, it assists the Executive by facilitating the processing of Government Bills, responses to Motions and ministerial statements. In 2015, the division will continue with its core mandate of co-ordination of Government business in Parliament. The division will also strengthen its monitoring and evaluation of the implementation of the projects highlighted in the Action-Taken Reports and Government Assurances. The division further wishes to strengthen its participation in inter-parliamentary meetings and attachments to ensure a deeper understanding of other institutions charged with the responsibility of co-ordinating Government business in Parliament in the region and the world.

Mr Chairperson, the Department of Resettlement has been allocated K3,976,601 in the 2015 Budget. The department has one main objective, which is to resettle targeted citizens both on voluntary or involuntary basis in order to provide them with alternative livelihoods while uplifting the living standards of rural communities.

Mr Chairperson, the Government’s goal is that, by 2016, at least, 50 per cent of all settlers should have legal recognition of ownership of their land. The department has, so far, resettled over 23,000 households in its eighty-three resettlement schemes covering the whole country. Over 2,000 applications have been received in the last one year alone, with 90,000 ha of new blocks of land already acquired for resettlement purposes. Thirty-six boreholes and 50 km of access road network were also provided. In order to make the resettlement schemes socially acceptable and economically viable, social economic infrastructure and support services are to be provided. It is in this regard that the Resettlement Scheme Establishment and Infrastructure Programme will continue to take centre stage in the 2015 Budget. 

Mr Chairperson, resettlement is a multi-sectoral activity in which other stakeholders have to play their role. It is, therefore, expected that the Rural Roads Unit (RRU) will support the provision of access roads; the Department of Water Affairs will support the sinking of boreholes; and that the Ministries of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education, and Health will support the provision of education and health care services in resettlement areas. The Office of the Vice-President, in collaboration with the Ministry of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection, will also ensure that security of tenure is guaranteed to all settlers under the National Land Tilting Programme so that our people can access loans from financial institutions to support economic development at the household level. Further, the National Land Resettlement Policy is in the process of being finalised and, once finalised, it will ensure that there is clear guidance on the implementation of resettlement programmes, resulting in the creation of economically productive, socially just and environmentally sustainable human settlements.

Mr Chairperson, I seek the hon. Members’ unanimous support for this Vote. 

I thank you, Sir.

The Chairperson: Any further debate?

As there is no further debate on these Votes, I call on the Leader of Government Business in the House to wind up debate.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, I thank the hon. Members for their unanimous support.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 02/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 02/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 02/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 19 – (Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit – K68,055,938).

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, the Office of the Vice-President is also charged with the responsibility of managing and mitigating disasters. 

Mr Chairperson, during the 2014 Financial Year, the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU) was allocated K67,315,970, which facilitated the implementation of a number of key activities in line with the mandate of the Office of the Vice-President, leading to the attainment of the strategic developmental objectives articulated in the Office of the Vice-President Strategic Plan, which aims at reducing vulnerability, contributing to poverty reduction and attaining social safety nets and sustainable social economic development for all citizens. The allocation further enabled the Office of the Vice-President to undertake the following activities: 

(a)    emergency rehabilitation of infrastructure, such as bridges, culverts and schools, in a number of districts affected by floods during the 2013/2014 rainy season; 

(b)    resettlement of internally displaced persons; 

(c)    development of a Disaster Risk Management (DRM) framework that will guide the integration of DRM measures into development policies; and

(d)    development of the Community-Based Disaster Risk Management Facilitation Manual, which will enhance basic community disaster preparedness and foster the integration of disaster risk management efforts in the key sectors of the economy at the local level.

Sir, additionally, the Office of the Vice-President undertook the 2014 In-depth Vulnerability and Needs Assessment in thirty-three districts. Arising from that assessment, the Office will implement a relief programme in fourteen districts from this year into 2015. Further, the Office has stock-piled an assortment of food and non-food items to facilitate timely responses to disasters. 

Mr Chairperson, for 2015, the DMMU has been allocated K68,055,939. This allocation will be used to, among other activities, facilitate the following:

(a)    strengthening of the monitoring and evaluation system in order to ensure prudent utilisation of resources and effective implementation of disaster risk management programmes;

(b)    operationalisation of the Disaster Risk Management Framework aimed at building resilience and a culture of safety for communities;

(c)    increased investment in the area of early warning, preparedness, mitigation and prevention as part of disaster risk management and response at all levels in order to reduce loss of life and economic and social damages;

(d)    implementing the relief programmes in various districts in order to mitigate food insecurity;

(e)    strengthening the climate information component of the Pilot Programme for Climate Change Resilience (PPCR);

(f)    operationalisation of the Community Disaster Risk Management (DRM) Facilitation Manual, which will enhance basic community disaster preparedness and foster integration of disaster risk management efforts in the key sectors of the economy at the local level;

(g)    building of capacity at all levels of the disaster management structure, particularly at the satellite or community level, in order to enhance preparedness, response and adaptive capabilities;

(h)    decentralisation of disaster management operations to the district level by appointing Disaster Risk Reduction Officers (DRRO);

(i)    carrying out of fast-track rehabilitation of infrastructure, that is, roads, bridges, culverts, schools and hospitals, and building infrastructure that can withstand natural disasters using a Whole-Government Approach; 

(j)    procurement of a set of plant equipment that will be deployed during emergencies; and 

(k)    procurement of other support facilities, such as helicopters and mobile bridges.

Mr Chairperson, with that background I have given, I request the hon. Members to support the budget for the Office of the Vice-President.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mufalali (Senanga Central): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for allowing me to say a few words on the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU) Budget.

Mr Chairperson, the DMMU was a good initiative, and I think that it needs to be supported. However, I realise that, when we have emergencies in the constituencies or in the country, we find ourselves not being attended to on time. I, therefore, appeal to the hon. Minister of Finance and the Government at large to ensure that the quick response that we used to get from the DMMU in the past continues.  

Mr Chairperson, we have had several losses in Senanga Central Constituency. A market and the houses around it got burnt, but the DMMU was nowhere to be seen. To date, it has not responded to our requests, which indicates that there is something wrong in the unit. If it starts responding quickly to the cries for help from the people, I think that we will be able to move on very quickly. During His Honour the Vice-President’s Question Time, recently, His Honour the Vice-President asked us to go to his office and meet people from the DMMU. Alas! Some of the responses we have been waiting for have not come forth. We have reported several bridges that have been washed away in Senanga, but were told to write to the Road Development Agency (RDA) and the Ministry of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication, among other responses. For the past three years, we have been requesting for help in Senanga and telling it that even the hauling of relief food to the eastern side and other places that the unit wants to do will not be possible because the collapsed bridges have not repaired. However, to date, nothing has been done, yet the hon. Minister has come here to ask us to support the Vote for the DMMU. I find it difficult to do so because we are not being attended to. Therefore, I appeal to the Government to respond to us when we make requests for help with the bridges that have been washed away. I have in mind a bridge that was destroyed and all the materials needed to rebuild it were taken on site in 2008 during a by-election. However, to date, there is nothing going on, yet that is a crossing point for all the people from the eastern side of Senanga. On the same eastern side, we have another bridge called Munguli, whose embankment was washed away. We reported this matter, but nothing is happening. Therefore, I think that the DMMU should start responding quickly to our cries before it becomes irrelevant to some of us.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, I appreciate the hon. Member who has debated this issue. 

Mr Chairperson, one of the things I stated in my earlier debate is that we will operationalise the Community Disaster Risk Management (DRM) Facilitation Manual, which will improve co-ordination. We are trying to improve the response time and co-ordination by building capacity at all levels of the disaster management structure, from the satellite to the district and to the province. That is why we are thinking of buying equipment that we will help us to respond quickly. The issues that the hon. Member has raised will be looked at and we will see how to react to them.

I thank you, Sir.

Head 19/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 03/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

The Chairperson: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

_________

HOUSE RESUMED

[MR DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

_________

MOTION

ADJOURNMENT

The Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication, Chief Whip and Acting Leader of Government Business in the House (Mr Mukanga): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

_________

The House adjourned at 1042 hours until 1430 hours on Tuesday, 18th November, 2014.