Debates - Thursday, 20th November, 2014

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Thursday, 20th November, 2014

The House met at 1430 hours

MR SPEAKER in the Chair






233. Mr Mucheleka (Lubansenshi) asked the Minister of Agriculture and Livestock:

(a)    when the Government would construct and rehabilitate agriculture extension officers’ camp houses in Lubansenshi Parliamentary Constituency; and

(b)    how many camp houses would be;

(i)    constructed; and
(ii)    rehabilitated.

The Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Livestock (Mr Kazabu): Mr Speaker, the construction and rehabilitation of camp houses is a countrywide programme. However, it is dependent on the availability of funds. The ministry has embarked on programmes aimed at alleviating the hardships of agriculture extension officers such as the rehabilitation and, where necessary, construction of camp houses. 

Sir, three camp houses in Shimumbi, Mucheleka and Chifwile camps in Lubansenshi Parliamentary Constituency are earmarked for rehabilitation. The Bill of Quantities (BoQ) has been processed and the tendering process commenced. Once all the processes have been completed, the rehabilitation of the camp houses will commence.

Mr Speaker, there are no camp houses earmarked for construction in Lubansenshi Parliamentary Constituency. However, as stated in part (a) of the Question, three camp houses have been earmarked for rehabilitation.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mucheleka: Mr Speaker, extension services in the country have collapsed. This has negatively affected the productivity of the smallholder farmers that has resulted in high poverty levels in the country. The hon. Minister said that this is a countrywide programme that is not restricted to Lubansenshi. When is the Government going to treat farming as a business that can reduce poverty among farmers? Can he also indicate how soon sufficient resources will be allocated for the construction of houses for agriculture extension officers in Lubansenshi and the country at large?

Mr Kazabu: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member of Parliament for Lubansenshi will be pleased to know that the hon. Minister of Finance has allocated K307 million in the 2015 Budget for the rehabilitation and construction of camp houses. Therefore, my ministry shall consider Lubansenshi Constituency for the construction of the camp houses that the hon. Member of Parliament has referred to in its work plan.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Mr Speaker, the Tobacco Board of Zambia (TBZ) has a lot of structures in rural areas. Most of the structures, such as houses, have not been occupied for a long time and are being vandalised in some constituencies. May I find out from the hon. Minister if there is a plan to allow camp officers to occupy the TBZ houses which are being vandalised.

Mr Kazabu: Mr Speaker, we shall consider that possibility. In the meantime, let me state that this vandalism commenced, perhaps, before the Patriotic Front took over the reins of this country. Those of us who came to the ministry not long ago have come to know about the problem of vandalism of the TBZ infrastructure. However, we are looking into the matter so that, perhaps, some of the structures can be rehabilitated. After that, we can then make the critical decision to accommodate some of the officers.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, before I pose my question, I would like to express my condolences to the Patriotic Front (PF), considering that we are going to have a lot of dead bodies very soon on your right as a result of the up-coming convention. 


Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister in a position to give us the work plan for the proposed rehabilitation of the camp houses in the various constituencies?

Mr Kazabu: Mr Speaker, the Budget for 2015 is under consideration by this august House. Once the Budget has been passed, the ministry shall come up with a work plan which shows clearly where houses are going to be rehabilitated and constructed.

I thank you, Sir.


234. Mr Katuka (Mwinilunga) asked the Minister of Home Affairs:

(a)    how many prisoners countrywide were seventy years and above as of August, 2014;

(b)    what offences they had committed; and

(c)    whether the Government had any plans to release the aged prisoners on parole.

The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Kampyongo): Mr Speaker, there will be no dead bodies on this side of the House as insinuated by the hon. Member of Parliament for Monze Central.

Sir, sixty-one prisoners countrywide were seventy years and above as at 31st August, 2014. Their offences include the following: 

(i)    unlawful possession of prescribed trophy;
(ii)    manslaughter;
(iii)    stock theft; 
(iv)    obtaining money by false pretences; 
(v)    professing knowledge of witchcraft;
(vi)    unlawful entry into a national park; 
(vii)    entry into a national park with a weapon; 
(viii)    attempted murder; 
(ix)    defilement; 
(x)    trafficking in psychotropic substances; 
(xi)    unlawful cultivation of psychotropic substances; 
(xii)    unlawful cultivation of psychotropic substances; 
(xiii)    unlawful wounding; 
(xiv)    assault on child; 
(xv)    espionage; 
(xvi)    aggravated robbery; 
(xvii)    theft of copper; 
(xviii)    child abduction; 
(xix)    murder; and 
(xx)    rape.

Mr Speaker, the Government has no immediate plans to release aged prisoners on parole. However, there are other mechanisms of clemency which are provided for in the law, and which the Government uses from time to time to discharge this category of prisoners. The hon. Member may wish to know that out of the 975 prisoners who were released during the Golden Jubilee Celebrations, twenty-one were over-aged prisoners.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Muchima (Ikeleng’i): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister …

Mr Shakafuswa: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Shakafuswa: Mr Speaker, I rise on a very serious point of order. We hear the distribution of inputs by the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP) is coming to a close this week on Friday. In the meantime, the Food Reserve Agency (FRA) has not paid most of the farmers. I would like to find out if the hon. Minister of Agriculture is in order not to come to this House with a statement on what strategy he has put in place to ensure that farmers who have not bee paid for the maize they supplied participate in food production since the FRA and FISP are under his charge.

I need your serious ruling, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: My ruling is that the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Livestock should issue a ministerial statement on the subject tomorrow.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Speaker: May the hon. Member for Ikeleng’i continue.

Mr Muchima: Mr Speaker, human rights activists and the country at large have bemoaned the lack of accommodation facilities in prisons where people are kept like animals. A cell, which is supposed to accommodate seven people, is occupied by more than a hundred people. Could the release of aged prisoners not be an opportunity to decongest the prisons?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, in my earlier response, I stated that the Government had no immediate plans to release the aged prisoners on parole. I also stated that twenty-one over-aged prisoners were released this year. Even as we release the prisoners, there are laws that have to be followed. Although prisoners have human rights, there are also laws to be followed. For example, the President can only exercise his powers to release prisoners as provided for under Article 59 (b) of the Constitution of Zambia. 

I would also like to inform the hon. Member that this is the only Government that has opened new prison facilities to try to decongest the few facilities which were built before Independence. If his Government had been as caring as we are, we would have had better prison facilities. Otherwise, we are concerned about the welfare of prisoners, and that is why this Government is providing practical solutions to the problem of congestion in prisons.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister did not mention any political prisoner in his response. In view of this, I would like to find out from him the category in which the people who were arrested in the Western Province fall.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, that sounds like a new question. To us, prisoners are prisoners and we only categorise them according to the offences they are convicted for.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


235. Mr Mucheleka asked the Minister of Community Development, Mother and Child Health:

(a)    how many persons with disabilities were given functional assistive devices such as wheelchairs and crutches from January, 2012 to June, 2014, countrywide; and

(b)    whether the Government had statistics on disabled persons in the country.

The Deputy Minister of Community Development, Mother and Child Health (Mrs Mphande): Mr Speaker, about 1,488 persons with disabilities were given assistive devices from January, 2012, to 30th June, 2014.

Sir, the Government is currently using statistics from the 2010 Census of Population and Housing. As of 2010, there was a total 251,427 persons with disabilities. Of these, 130,302 were males and 121,125 were females.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mucheleka: Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister indicate the type of disabilities these people have.

The Minister of Community Development, Mother and Child Health (Ms Kabanshi): Mr Speaker, just as my Deputy Minister has stated, the survey is being conducted this year. Therefore, we shall have a concrete figure on the type of disabilities affecting the population in Zambia next year.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Livune (Katombola): Mr Speaker, I would like to know the types of disabilities.

Ms Kabanshi: Mr Speaker, there are many. I think the hon. Member knows them. There are the blind, deaf, physically disabled, and so on and so forth.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwezi): Mr Speaker, may I know whether the people with unsound mind fall under this category of disabled persons.

Ms Kabanshi: Mr Speaker, yes, they do.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Pande (Kasempa): Mr Speaker, there is a leprosarium in my constituency. Should I take it that the statistics given by the hon. Minister include the lepers in that area?

Ms Kabanshi: Mr Speaker, yes. This is because leprosy causes disability.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muchima: Mr Speaker, according to the statistics given, 1,000 persons with disabilities were given functional assistive devices. How many wheelchairs were sent to the North-Western Province, Ikeleng’i in particular? I have seen several people who cannot walk, but have no wheel chairs. So, I would like to know how many wheelchairs were sent to the North-Western Province.

Ms Kabanshi: Mr Speaker, I am not sure whether the hon. Member is talking about the functional assistive devices or the disabled people who benefitted from the donation in the North-Western Province. However, in 2010, ten wheelchairs were sent to the North-Western Province and fifty-six were sent in 2014.

I thank you, Sir.


236. Mr Ng’onga (Kaputa) asked the Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication:

(a)    whether the tarrying of the Pedicle Road from Mokambo to Mwanawasa Bridge was on schedule;

(b)    if not, what had caused the delay;

(c)    whether the contractor had capacity to complete the road works on time; and

(d)    when the works would be completed.

The Deputy Minister in the Office of the Vice-President (Mr Mwango): Mr Speaker, the upgrading of the Pedicle Road to bituminous standard was eleven months behind schedule. However, an extension of twelve months was granted and the revised completion date is now October, 31, 2015. The delays in the project can be attributed to the following:

(i)    non-availability of aggregate material sources in the project area, that is, the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC). The contractor has had to source aggregate materials from as far as Chililabombwe, Mufulira and Mopani Mine;

(ii)    the crusher plant was repossessed by Mopani Copper Mines Ltd. This disrupted the works for about two-and-a-half months. However, it has since been handed back to the contractor;

(iii)    challenges in the transportation of construction materials across the DRC Border, as the closing times for the DRC Border were changed; and

(iv)    inclement weather in the area.

Sir, the contractor has the capacity to complete the works on time. This is evident from the fact that the contractor has adequate equipment and personnel. In addition, the contractor has subcontracted some works in order to increase the capacity.

Mr Speaker, the project commenced in December, 2012, and was initially scheduled for completion by December, 2014. However, the date has since been extended to 31st October, 2015. The justification for extension is as at (b) above.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Ng’onga: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out if Copperfield, who has also been tasked to work on the Kaputa/Chiengi Road, will be able to mobilise in time, seeing that he has not been able to complete the earlier project on time.

The Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication (Mr Mukanga): Mr Speaker, although that is a new question, I still appreciate it. Since the contractor has been given the Kaputa and Pedicle roads, it shows that he has the capacity, just like the hon. Deputy Minister stated in his earlier response. So, he will execute the job.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mooya (Moomba): Mr Speaker, I am wondering why the delays were not taken into consideration during the valuation so as to arrive at the right completion time. An extension time of twelve months is not acceptable.
Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, all that was taken into consideration but, as you rightly know, we need to get specific aggregate for the design. When the contractor started working on the Pedicle Road, the aggregate along that road was not enough. That is why the contractor had to go to Chililabombwe and Mufulira. So, that caused a major delay in the project. All this is usually taken into consideration during feasibility studies.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.




VOTE 12 – (Commission for Investigations – Office of the President – K7,733,580).

The Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication, Chief Whip, and Acting Leader of Government Business in the House (Mr Mukanga): Mr Chairperson, I wish to express my gratitude for according me this opportunity to present the budget estimates for the Commission for Investigations for 2015.

Mr Chairperson, the Office of the Investigator-General is established by Article 90 of the Constitution of Zambia. The Act of Parliament, known as the Commission for Investigations Act Cap. 39 of the Laws of Zambia, provides for the commission’s powers, procedures and jurisdiction. The Commission for Investigations came into existence in 1974.

Mr Chairperson, the functions of the commission are:

(a)    to redress grievances of maladministration in public institutions;

(b)    to ensure that social justice and fair treatment is given to members of the public by public bodies; and

(c)    to advise the Government on the required measures for matters relating to maladministration and abuse of office or authority.

Mr Chairperson, last year, the commission performed its functions with a total budget of K7,293,107. The Estimates of Expenditure for 2015 show a marginal increase of about 6 per cent. I now present the budget estimates for 2015 of K7,733,580 for the commission. These funds will support the portfolio functions of the commission in our continued effort to redress maladministration in public institutions. Therefore, I urge this august House to support the budget estimates as presented.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Pande (Kasempa): Mr Speaker, my contribution, in support of this budget line, is very brief. Firstly, I would like to state that we have relegated the Office of the Investigator-General to a level where it is not supposed to be. In the past, this office was well known but, today, we only talk about it and remind people about its existence when it is time to approve the Budget. After that, it is never talked about.

Mr Chairperson, I have looked at the allocation for this office, and I am pleased that some of the areas that I was concerned about in terms of the publicity of this institution have been addressed. I think we should go further in ensuring that people know about its existence.

Mr Chairperson, at the moment, very few people know about the existence of the Commission for Investigations. In the past, this institution used to produce annual reports, but this is no longer the case. Therefore, I urge the commission to produce annual reports on the work it has been doing. After approving its budget, we need to know what investigations have been carried out in the past years. We should not just continue allocating resources to this office without knowing what they are used for.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to see a situation where every citizen is aware of the existence of this commission. If we asked hon. Members of Parliament in here where the offices of the Commission for Investigations are, very few would know. The reason is that we have taken a- business-as-usual-approach towards this institution. Therefore, I would like the Government to put more emphasis on exposing this commission.

Mr Chairperson, I have also noticed that the allocation for transport is small. I would like to see the officers in this institution travel all over the country to publicise the commission’s activities. However, they can only do this if they have enough transport. At the moment, there is probably one or two vehicles only. This is not enough. Further, how many commissioners are at this institution? I think even the vehicles for the commission are in bad shape. I note that K90,000 has been allocated for transport. This, too, is not enough. 

I would like the hon. Minister of Finance to review this issue before we finally approve the budget for the commission so that it is given more money for transport. That is how the public can get to know about it.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, we are grateful to Hon. Pande for debating in that manner. I would like to inform him that we are doing all we can to ensure that this office is made visible to the public because it is the ombudsman of the nation. Therefore, we need to ensure that we utilise it well. This is a very important office. So, we are going to do a lot of sensitisation next year so that more people know about it. This is the best office to utilise in the fight against corruption.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Vote 12/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 13 – (Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs – K140,815,858).

The Minister of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs (Prof. Luo): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for according me this opportunity to discuss the Estimates of Expenditure for the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs for 2015. Before I discuss the topic at hand, let me pay special tribute to the late President of the Republic of Zambia, His Excellency Mr Michael Chilufya Sata, for his vision and foresight in establishing the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs. May his soul rest in peace.

Mr Chairperson, I sincerely believe that if resources are disbursed timely, and various aspects of this Budget are implemented to the letter, a lot of economic activities are likely to be boosted all over rural Zambia and subsequently contribute to economic growth.

I also sincerely believe that the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs is a strategic ministry that interfaces with most of the ministries such as those responsible for local government and housing, agriculture, tourism, mining, energy, water development, lands, natural resources and environmental protection, community development, mother and child health, education, gender and child development, health and so on and so forth, since it has presence countrywide up to unit level. So, it can be an important vehicle for economic development in rural areas. In fact, its establishment has brought hope for people in rural Zambia.

Mr Chairperson, it is only proper that I share with this august House that the majority of people living in poverty in rural Zambia. If the role of the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs is appreciated, harnessed and its well-thought-out and structured programmes are supported, it can accelerate rural development. Once there is development in rural areas, it will be visible and appreciated by the populace.

Mr Chairperson, it is also true that chiefs can play a vital role in accelerating development in the nation because most of the country’s natural resources are found in chiefdoms. Therefore, traditional leaders are true partners of the Government. That is why the Government is committed to working with traditional leaders on various national issues. It is a known fact that, historically, traditional leaders participated in various developmental programmes at chiefdom level throughout the country. 

Furthermore, there is evidence to suggest that in many countries, Zambia included, chiefs play a vital role in the governance system in areas such as land administration, natural resources, local justice, and the enforcement of customary law. In addition, conflict resolution continues to be an important sphere of their responsibility. In fact, Mr Chairperson, the longest existing local government system in most African countries is the chiefdom.

The programmes in my ministry that chiefs fully participate in have been at the centre of analysis. The activities we have included are related to the promotion of access to clean water and sanitation, conflict resolution and peace initiative, chiefdom development, promotion of access to good health, campaign against child marriages and gender-based violence. It is, therefore, important for all of us to appreciate the vital role traditional leaders can play in matters of national development in partnership with the Government. In fact, if you ask the civil society to carry out the same programmes, they will ask for administrative offices and salaries, whereas the chiefs and their subjects do it wholeheartedly without any remuneration. My ministry, therefore, will work towards building a stronger partnership between the Government and traditional leaders that is aimed at progressive and sustainable development, especially in rural areas.

Mr Chairperson, my ministry’s budget for 2015 is K140,815,858 compared to K118,811,205 in 2014, representing a 16 per cent increase of K22,004,653. Although there has been an increase in the ceilings, most of it is for personal emoluments for traditional leaders and technical staff. In this respect, we appreciate the increase from K17,951,203 in 2014 to K29,456,373 in 2015. Despite this increase, the actual expenditure on personal emoluments is projected to be only K30.7 million. Therefore, we strongly appeal for an increase in personal emoluments. In order to facilitate the ministry’s establishment of the Planning, Research and Information Department, which has been lacking since the establishment of the ministry, we await resources from the Treasury to make this desire a reality. Furthermore, the ministry also needs to continue with the employment of officers at provincial and district levels.

Mr Chairperson, the allocation for non-personal emoluments has been increased by K10,499,483. This specifically relates to the National Museums Board and the National Heritage Conservation Commission whose allocations have increased from K9,400,00 to K16,434,600 and K6,600,00 to K12,006,476 respectively. However, the allocation for non-personal emoluments has been reduced by K2 million, from K53,940,682 in 2014 to K51,939,089 in 2015 despite the fact that the ministry has to implement the existing programmes in line with the Revised Sixth National Development Plan (SNDP). As the allocation to tourism and education increases, it will be prudent to increase the allocation to the National Heritage Conservation Commission (NHCC) and museums, as we are the providers of the raw materials, and maintainers and managers of sites which …


The Chairperson: Order, on both my right and left!

Prof. Luo: It is important to appreciate that the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs, through museums and the NHCC, are the curators of objects, and preservers and managers of sites.

Mr Chairperson, the mission statement for the ministry is anchored on its vision, which is: 

“Improved livelihoods and sustainable developments in chiefdoms”.

Mr Chairperson, the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs was created in 2011 to, among other things:

(i)    facilitate and administer matters relating to chiefs;
(ii)    enhance local and traditional governance;
(iii)    initiate sustainable development activities in rural Zambia (chiefdoms);
(iv)    coordinate the business of the House of Chiefs; and
(v)    manage museums and heritage sites as a contribution to the enhancement of the tourism sector.

To this effect, my ministry has initiated policies and programmes which are within the framework of the Revised SNDP. Our focus is on ensuring the promotion of good governance, capacity building, preservation and conservation of heritage and optimal utilisation of local resources to improve the quality of life of people in rural areas.

Similarly, I am happy to inform this august House that my ministry has developed a Draft Ministerial Strategic Plan which will be launched once approval has been given by Cabinet Office. As such, K200,000 has been allocated for finalisation and launching.

Mr Chairperson, allow me to inform this august House about some of the notable achievements my ministry has made in 2014.


The Chairperson: Order, hon. Minister!

I think my immediate right is consulting loudly.

May the hon. Minister continue.

Prof. Luo: Mr Chairperson, in my last policy statement, I said that chiefs live in dilapidated structures that do not befit their status. In a bid to further enhance the welfare and status of chiefs in Zambia, the Government has started disbursing funds to the provinces for the construction of chiefs’ palaces. If it were not for the demise of His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia, the ground-breaking ceremonies would have started a few weeks ago.

These palaces shall serve as institutional houses to be occupied by successive chiefs and administrative centres. In addition, there shall be a community museum at each palace to serve as a depository and reference centre.

Apart from the approved architectural plans, my ministry has developed guidelines on the construction of palaces. The main purpose of the guidelines is to guide the construction process of palaces. Among the key guidelines is that palaces for chiefs shall be constructed using a labour-based approach also known as community participation or the Zambia National Service (ZNS) to cut costs.

Sir, I also wish to inform this august House that funds are already being disbursed to the provinces. We are awaiting the disbursement of the balance of K12,500 for further disbursement to the provincial offices to facilitate the completion of thirty palaces.

Mr Chairperson, my ministry is also charged with the responsibility of documenting traditions in order to preserve heritage in the country. A modality for the documentation of traditions has been devised and will be implemented in collaboration with the University of Zambia Institute of Economic and Social Research (INESOR).

The procurement request for INESOR to conduct research in collaboration with the ministry was approved by both the Zambia Public Procurement Authority (ZPPA) and my ministry. Further, a research fellow will come on a Fulbright Fellowship to help us with the documentation of traditional ceremonies.

Mr Chairperson, my ministry has embarked on orientation programmes for traditional leaders on Government policies, good governance, conflict resolution among the various cultural groupings, administrative support to the institutions of chieftaincy, and the review of the various laws that pertain to chieftaincy so that they conform to regional and international best practices. My ministry, therefore, aims at embracing traditional structures to participate in matters of development and other communal activities. To enhance good governance in chiefdoms, strategic management and the administration of local development, my ministry, in conjunction with our co-operating partners, is currently piloting the development of strategic plans and their implementation in chiefdoms. To this effect, six chiefdoms have benefited from the pilot exercise. We hope to roll out the programme to other chiefdoms once the pilot exercise has been reviewed.

Mr Chairperson, my ministry, in conjunction with the United States Agency for International Development (USAID), is implementing a one-year national programme on good governance called, “Female Chiefs as Advocates of Peace and Stability”. Through this programme, thirty-one female chiefs were consulted and trained in traditional forms of upholding peace and stability in communities. Following the planning and training of female traditional leaders, messages of peace and stability under the three themes: “Upholding Unity”, “Encouraging Development”, and “Preservation of Natural Resources in our Communities” were recorded in the local languages by selected chieftainesses. The messages have been running on local radio stations countrywide for the last four months and, recently, on television. This programme is expected to contribute to peace and unity in Zambia, and we hope that it will continue. Most of the support will come from the National Budget and the USAID.

Mr Chairperson, the first session of the House of Chiefs for 2014 was successfully held, and the second one started this week and will continue next week. The votes and proceedings from the session have been compiled and the resolutions are ready. Among the resolutions for the House of Chiefs are the following: 

(i)    chiefs should get more involved in resolving succession wrangles and boundary disputes in chiefdoms as opposed to settling traditional matters in the courts of law. The courts of law must be the last resort in resolving conflicts. To this effect, we intend to take a Paper to Cabinet to propose one of the best ways for conflict resolution after the training that the chiefs have undergone;

(ii)    the Government should consider partnering with chiefdoms to adopt a cost-sharing approach in the construction of chiefs’ palaces in order to reduce on the cost and time on the part of the Government; and

(iii)    the sittings, especially the second sitting, should not take long. 

Mr Chairperson, my ministry also initiated the campaign against child marriages in partnership with other ministries. We all know that child marriage is a fundamental violation of human rights that continues to affect many countries globally, including Zambia. The prevalence rate of child marriage in Zambia stands at 42 per cent, making it one of the highest affected countries globally. Currently, we are at number sixteen globally. By international standards, eighteen years is the minimum legal age of consent to marriage. Unfortunately, Zambia has a dual legal system, …


Mr Chairperson: Order!

My right is not listening. It is either you are consulting loudly or are indifferent to what is being said, which should not be the case.

Continue, hon. Minister.

Prof. Luo: … making it difficult to address the issue of child marriage. According to our customary practices, puberty is a qualification for marriage. Hon. Members should appreciate that child marriage has slowed down Zambia’s attainment of the Millennium Development Goals (MDGs), including the goals on eradicating poverty, hunger, promoting gender equality and empowerment of women, reducing child mortality, improving maternal mortality and combating the Human Immunodeficiency Virus/Acquired Immunodeficiency Syndrome (HIV/AIDS), cervical cancer, malaria and other diseases. 

Mr Chairperson, let me share with this August House that Zambia has made tremendous progress in ending child marriage. The campaign to end child marriage was launched in Lwangeni Village in Chipata on 13th April, 2013. This campaign placed Their Royal Highnesses at the helm of the National Child Marriage Agenda. Furthermore, Zambia was host to the National Symposium on Ending Child Marriage that brought together local and international leaders to share experiences and insights on ending child marriage. In fact, currently, my staff are going round the country making consultations. In addition, a situational analysis on child marriage is being conducted. Further, a mapping exercise has just been completed to identify the hot spots for child marriage. My ministry is currently hosting the secretariat for the consortium of ten ministries, including the ministries of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education, Health, Community Development, Mother and Child Health, Justice, Home Affairs, Gender and Child Development, Youth and Sport, Labour and Social Security, and Local Government and Housing. The symposium attracted a lot of funding for the Campaign against Child Marriage. Canada pledged US$1.7 million; the United States (US) pledged US$1 million, and the United Kingdom (UK) pledged over £600,000. As part of the global partnership on ending child marriage, my ministry is part of the National Technical Working Group on the United Nations (UN) resolution on forced, early and child marriage hosted by the Ministry of Gender and Child Development at the moment.

Mr Chairperson, some hon. Members, here, made statements that Archbishop Desmond Tutu came to Zambia to teach us how to deal with issues of child marriage. Let me take this opportunity to inform this august House that Zambia is now the model of all African countries and the world over with regard to its agenda on child marriage. the presence of Archbishop Desmond Tutu in this country and Princess Mabel van Oranje was for them to learn how ten ministries could get together, in partnership with the civil society, private sector and co-operating partners to put up a robust campaign against child marriage. To this effect, the African Union (AU) and the United Nations International Children’s Emergency Fund (UNICEF) have chosen Zambia as one of the countries to be supported.

Mr Chairperson, Zambia is currently part of the AU continental campaign on ending child marriage that is scheduled to be implemented in two years in ten African countries initially. Zambia participated in the summit that took place in London where, again, it was recognised as the leader in this campaign.

Mr Chairperson, my ministry is in the process of completing its strategic plan on child marriage. Apart from the situational analysis and mapping, my ministry has been working tirelessly with traditional leaders to help them identify all the cases of child marriage. My ministry has also worked in partnership with the Law Development Agency and the Ministry of Justice to bring the Marriage Bill to Parliament.  

Mr Chairperson, I would like to appeal to hon. Members of Parliament to work in partnership with Their Royal Highnesses in their constituencies to end child marriage, as this will accelerate development in Zambia. When you educate a woman, you educate the whole nation. 

Mr Chairperson, the ministry is implementing a nationwide Sanitation and Hygiene Programme in chiefdoms as part of the Rural Water and Sanitation Programme on behalf of the Ministry of Local Government and Housing. Chiefs are closest to the people, and their participation accelerated the programme. 

Sir, Chief Macha was celebrated by UNICEF as a champion on sanitation. Subsequently, other chiefs like Chief Sengani have also been identified. In the forty-seven districts where the programme is being implemented, 4,243 villages have been declared open-defecation free this year. 

Mr Chairperson, the importance of managing information in modern society cannot be over emphasised. To this effect, my ministry is now working on tools to make sure that it is able to monitor what is happening in the villages. The ministry is also in the process of developing a comprehensive management information system.  

Mr Chairperson, my ministry has continued with the village registration exercise.

Sir, apart from building palaces, the ministry has continued to look after chiefs and their retainers. At the moment, the ministry is reviewing the policy on buying vehicles for chiefs. Apart from giving chiefs allowances, the ministry takes care of their health and funeral expenses. It also pays for up-keep and other incidentals for chiefs who are on official duty. 

Mr Chairperson, with regard to succession and boundary disputes, my ministry appreciates the progress in the conflict resolution process. However, the ministry has mediated over numerous conflicts around the country during the period under review. Although the ministry has managed some of them, there are others that have created a hullabaloo. Nevertheless, we shall continue to support chiefs because we are not afraid of being criticised in the press because this is our responsibility. 

Mr Chairperson, my ministry attaches great importance to traditional ceremonies because they contribute to tourism and national development. Zambia has a rich cultural heritage. As a ministry, we believe that we need to rebrand our traditional ceremonies in order to add value to them. We cannot continue with the manner in which traditional ceremonies are conducted. When you have attended one, you can almost guess what is coming next. We want to ensure that our cultural heritage and long-preserved values are passed on to the current generation through traditional ceremonies. Therefore, we need to take drastic measures in order to add value to the traditional ceremonies. 

Mr Chairperson, the increase in the budget from K9,000 to K16,000 will only cater for personal emoluments. Given the potential of museums to contribute to education and tourism, the National Museums Board will not be able to open provincial museums to add to the existing four national museums. The museums will not be able to dismantle outstanding retirement benefits that have accrued since 1996 and procure motor vehicles which are required for the effective discharge of their functions. The Government last procured vehicles for this institution in 1990. 

Mr Chairperson, despite this, all national museums have upgraded permanent exhibitions. The Lusaka National Museum in particular has completed upgrading the major exhibitions in the section of archeology, history and ethnography with support from co-operating partners. This will enable the museum to provide detailed historic and current information. 

Mr Chairperson, through support from our co-operating partners, the Lusaka Museum led a team of researchers to Luano Valley in Mkushi District, Central Province, to conduct research on the Mailoni brothers. The team produced a report called “The Mailoni Brothers: A legacy of Terror and Intrigue, (2014)”. It highlights the activities of the three brothers that terrorised the Luano Valley, resulting in twelve deaths. The exhibition on the Mailoni Brothers at the Lusaka Museum attracts thousands of visitors. A ministerial statement will be brought to this august House as soon as approval is obtained from Cabinet Office. This will be followed by the launch of the report. This should be of interest to the country as a whole.

Mr Chairperson, my ministry, in partnership with Enviroprocessing Limited, recently carried out a ground breaking ceremony for the first ever mining museum in Kabwe. Ethnographic activities linked to MotoMoto Museum have also commenced in Mbala. 

Mr Chairperson, the ministry, through the National Museums Board, hosted the President of the International Council of Museums (ICOM), Professor Maitin-Hans Hinz, accompanied by the Chairperson of the International Committee on Education and Cultural Action (CECA), Professor Emma Nardi. Their visit attracted delegates from Southern African Development Community (SADC) countries to participate in the meeting. Zambia was selected because it has been able to find partners to improve activities in the museum despite some challenges. 

Mr Chairperson, the NHCC is mandated to document, conserve and manage Zambia’s cultural and natural heritage. The development of heritage sites can improve income levels and reduce poverty in our rural communities. Currently, there are over 4,000 cultural and natural sites which include only one heritage site, the Victoria Falls. 

Sir, the NHCC has made strides in ensuring that the Victoria Falls World Heritage Site is well presented to the general public through the provision of various amenities. This has improved the image of the site. The NHCC is working towards nominating other sites to the World Heritage List. In the recent past, the commission implemented an infrastructure development programme contrary to what was said yesterday. This includes Kalambo and Chishimba falls. A number of sites still remain undeveloped. This has ultimately affected visitations to the sites. 

Mr Chairperson, the NHCC has also put up infrastructure such as curio shops and campsites. However, it has been unable to effectively conduct surveys and inspect heritage sites due to a lack of transport. As I mentioned earlier, vehicles were last bought in 1990.

Sir, we missed the opportunity to boost the tourism industry by not investing in institutions like the NHCC and museums. We are looking for a university to partner with to carry out some excavation works at Kalambo Falls. This will contribute immensely to the bank of knowledge in Zambia. I would like to reiterate that not investing in these institutions is a lost opportunity.

Mr Chairperson, notwithstanding the achievements highlighted above, the ministry has also experienced a number of challenges. As this is a new ministry, it has encountered challenges of transport, office space and human resource at national, province and district levels from 2012to date. These challenges have impaired service delivery. However, the staff, hon. Ministers and Permanent Secretary in the ministry are enthusiastic to change the status quo in the rural areas. We hope things will change in the near future.

Sir, the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs is determined to improve the quality of life of the people in rural Zambia under difficult circumstances. We want the people in rural Zambia to graduate from mud and pole houses. We are determined to preserve Zambia’s heritage through different efforts. 

Mr Chairperson, I would like to take this opportunity to urge all hon. Members of this august House to support the budget before us and the activities in my ministry such as poverty reduction in chiefdoms. Poverty, my dear colleagues, will only be reduced through direct support and building capacities, and productivity amongst people in chiefdoms, investments in programmes aimed at changing mindsets, developing positive attitudes of hard work and good leadership. 

Sir, in conclusion, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Sikazwe: She is concluding. 

Prof. Luo: In conclusion, …


Prof. Luo: I am sure you wish you were the hon. Minister of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs who has turned around a ministry that was little thought of. 

Let me conclude …


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Prof. Luo: … by taking cognisance of our co-operating partners, my two Deputy Ministers, Hon. Kawandami and Hon. Limata, my Permanent Secretary, Mr Chibbonta, and my directors who have turned this ministry into a world model. Whoever comes to Zambia wants to see the hon. Minister of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Prof. Luo: I call upon all the hon. Members to support the budget for this very important ministry, especially those like Hon. Dr Kaingu who come from rural areas.

I thank you, Sir. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo (Mumbwa): Mr Chairperson, I thank the hon. Minister for that lengthy statement which is all-encompassing. It is nice to see a young hon. Minister so enthusiastic.


Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo: Mr Chairperson, the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs has to work very hard. It is one thing to have good ideas, but another to tackle the issues that affect our chiefs and chiefdoms earnestly. I hope this will come out in her annual work plan.

Sir, I have in mind the issue of boundary disputes that have an impact on the lives of villagers. In some instances, they have led to physical fights. I am aware of some instances where firearms were used and this was reported to the police. I would have liked to hear the hon. Minister talk about putting up a plan to effectively tackle such problems. People cannot till the land and achieve rural development in areas where there are disputes.

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister said that there are plans to incorporate senior headmen into the local administration. There has been lot of discontent with regard to the attention that is paid to chiefs while senior headmen and headmen are not recognised. The headmen are asking how possible it is for a head of an institution or the President, for instance, although this is slightly different in our Constitution, to be isolated and pampered with all sorts of things while the Cabinet is neglected. The traditional cabinet are the headmen and senior headmen. They are the ones who deal with issues of land disputes, and yet they are not looked after. I hope the hon. Minister will apply herself and find ways of making the traditional leaders participate in local development activities.

Sir, I would also like to comment on the issue of the extension of various council boundaries. When the chiefs give up land for the extension of council boundaries, the compensation given to the villagers is small. I think there are given about ten roofing sheets, window frames, door frames and about K3,000, depending on the size of the land.

Mr Chairperson, from my understanding, the livelihood of villagers is more important than structures. If a villager is displaced, and has no land to grow crops for both consumption and sale, then, we are creating poverty in the rural areas. In the rural areas, land is like a factory. If people have no access to land, how will they earn their living? I think it is very important to note that whatever compensation is arrived at is meaningful. I recommend that the hon. Minister looks at a mechanism of issuing title deeds if we have to have meaningful development. If people have title to pieces of land, it will enable them to borrow and develop their areas.  

Mr Chairperson, I accompanied some chiefs from my area on tours and there was no evidence of them being paid allowances. We went from one village to another and the villagers had to contribute ‘something’ to give to the chiefs. Although it is our responsibility to look after our traditional leaders, this is a paradox because poverty levels in the rural areas are high. I would like the hon. Minister to explain the issue of facilitation of allowances. As the chiefs go round doing their work, there should be a provision for food and fuel. I did not hear that being mentioned in the policy statement. 

Sir, lastly, I would like to agree that if chiefs are brought on board and their role is not politicised, they can contribute to development in the rural areas. I support this Budget line although I feel there is a lot of flowery language in the policy statement. I would, therefore, like to see the good ideas that have been mentioned on the Floor of this House followed with action. 

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Mr Ng’onga (Kaputa): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate this Vote. I would also like to convey my sincere condolences to the family of our late gallant leader, His Excellency, Mr Michael Chilufya Sata, and the leadership of this country on behalf of the people of Kaputa. 

Mr Chairperson, I have a few comments to make on this Vote. I support this Vote, but do agree with the hon. Minister when she indicated that chiefdoms are an engine for promoting the development in our areas. However, I also wish to point out that whereas building chiefs’ palaces is a good idea, the amounts allocated to this programme are inadequate. Even when she talks about building thirty units per year, if you divide that by the number of chiefs per province, we are far from completing this important programme. 

Sir, looking at the allocation for the rehabilitation of chiefs’ palaces, I find that it will take long to complete the project. We all know that we need to look after our chiefs. They should live in habitable conditions because they command respect not only among their subjects, but also the people that visit their palaces. I would like to urge the Government to allocate more resources to infrastructure development so that chiefs can live in houses that befit their status in society. 

Sir, I support Hon. Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo’s contribution on boundary disputes. In fact, the hon. Minister will agree with me that we were promised boundary maps in 2011, but they have not yet been issued. I think this is due to a lack of resources. Boundary maps for chiefdoms would forestall a lot of the disputes that we see in our constituencies. This is not something we should ignore for a long time. I am saying so because even in chiefdoms where there are no disputes at the moment, as the population grows and the demand for land also grows, disputes will start. Therefore, the earlier we provide the chiefdom boundaries, the better. No matter how expensive it is to produce the maps, this has to be done because it is to the benefit of all of us. 

Mr Chairperson, one of the issues that I would like to talk about is in regard to the leadership the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs is supposed to provide, especially in areas that are near the national parks. This is where there are a lot of conflicts between officers who are mandated to look after wildlife and the people. The late President provided the kind of leadership that we need. Our colleagues who are mandated to safeguard wildlife do not appreciate the sufferings of these communities as much as the ministry. Therefore, if the ministry does not provide leadership, then, this programme will not continue. We shall continue fighting for resources and reclaiming land from our people. Therefore, I urge the ministry to provide leadership in this programme of educating people to live in harmony with wildlife. 

Sir, we will remember the departed President for his passion for wildlife. He emphasised that wherever there was wildlife and people, priority should be given to people. We will miss him for this. 

Mr Chairperson, I also wish to talk about the issue of succession wrangles. I appreciate that it is not the role of the ministry to appoint chiefs. The ministry should be proactive and not reactive because succession wrangles are almost everywhere. 

Mr Chairperson, the ministry’s role to educate the people on what is supposed to be done in an event that a chief has to be replaced. Succession issues take long and have become a big problem in our constituencies. Sometimes, it takes about two, three or four years for a chief to be replaced. We all know that where there is no leadership, there is confusion, no direction and no developmental activities taking place. Therefore, the ministry should ensure that succession wrangles are brought to a minimum by sensitising the people. We look forward to your leadership in this area. 

Finally, Mr Chairperson, let me talk about land administration. The hon. Minister said that chiefs are a major stakeholder in the administration of land. However, most of chiefs sell land in order to enrich themselves. The ministry must thus sensitise them about their role as custodians of the land on behalf of the people. 

With these few words, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to debate the Vote for the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kaingu (Mwandi): Mr Chairperson, before I contribute to debate on the Vote for the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs, I would like to tender an apology to the widows of Zambia. Never again shall I be hoodwinked by the sentiments of a person who is mourning. I have heard people say that the gap a dead person leaves shall never be covered. I believe the mourning period is a painful time for them. However, I would like to apologise to the widows of Zambia whose tears have dried even though they are still mourning their spouses. It seems I spoke too early.


Dr Kaingu: Mr Chairperson, the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs is a very important ministry. However, I still insist that the nomenclature of this ministry is not right because the hon. Minister debated like she is the Minister of Tourism and Art. We need to focus our attention on this ministry because it can fight the poverty levels in Zambia that are so high. Culture is not tourism and I do not know why it is under the Ministry of Tourism and Art. The earlier we bring culture to the rightful ministry, the better for the people of Zambia.

Sir, this ministry can promote community-based enterprises and not the industrial clusters that the Government intends to create as a way of uplifting conditions of living for the Zambians. I know somebody will soon stand to talk about clusters.


Dr Kaingu: This ministry can reduce poverty levels in Zambia because it can provide tourism, agriculture and fishing enterprises. For example, if you buy the people of Mulya Mbeba a tractor, they will never look for money again because most of the maize that people in the Southern Province eat comes from that end.


Dr Kaingu: So, they do not need an industrial cluster there. The Government should set up a community-based enterprise in that area. The people in Liuwa, Western Province, for instance, …

Dr Musokotwane: Liuwa.

Dr Kaingu: … grow a lot of rice. So, they can be empowered by buying them a rice miller and tractors. The money spent on the establishment of industrial clusters should be diverted to community-based …


The Chairperson: Order, Dr Kaingu!

Can you explain the link between the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs and industrial clusters.

Dr Kaingu: The money that has been set aside for …

Hon. Opposition Members: Clusters.

Dr Kaingu: … the purpose of job and wealth creation in the country should be taken to the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs.

Mr Chairperson, this ministry is supposed to promote emancipatory knowledge that has been passed onto us intergenerationally. This is the knowledge that we use, for instance, to fish. It is not true that we all need to have degrees in order to excel in life because there are some people like Sir Richard Branson and Bill Gates who have excelled through emancipatory knowledge. The biggest export for America today is culture. I heard the hon. Minister trying to speak like an American …


Dr Kaingu: … because she has been engrossed by the American culture. So, this is a very important ministry. As I debate its Vote, I even feel like crying.

Hon. Members: Cry.

The Chairperson: Do not cry.


Dr Kaingu: Mr Chairperson, let me paraphrase the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organisation (UNESCO) definition of culture. According to UNESCO, culture is the distinctive, spiritual, materialistic, emotional and intellectual capacity of society.

Mr Mwale: Doctor.

Dr Kaingu: Therefore, culture should not be included in tourism. The hon. Minister’s policy statement only focused on chiefs. However, Hon. Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo said that the institutional framework of a chiefdom is much bigger than just a chief. For instance, the retainer gets a salary, and yet the senior headman does not get anything. This implies that the senior headman will have to go to the retainer to ask for money for food. This institution is much bigger than you think.

Mr Chairperson, traditional ceremonies can be catalysts of development in rural areas. So, there is a need to focus our attention on developing them because they can actually change people’s livelihood. However, if you went to a traditional ceremony, you would think that it is Airtel or the Zambia Telecommunications Company (ZAMTEL) that is launching a new product.

Dr Kaingu: The sponsor wants to take over the activities of the traditional ceremony.

The hon. Minister should have a calendar for traditional ceremonies so that if a tourist comes to Zambia and wants to watch the ceremonies, he/should be able to watch any ceremony of his/her choice. For example, very soon, we shall have the N’cwala Ceremony and there should be another ceremony immediately after that. That way, we can keep a cultural tourist in the country much longer than the two days of the N’cwala. That is the only way tourists can stay longer in the country. However, after the N’cwala, the next ceremony is the Kuomboka, which is unpredictable. I would like us to have ceremonies like the Juba Ja Nsomo which takes place on 6th June every year in Hon. Pande’s Constituency. You must assign dates to these ceremonies.

Sir, with these few words, I would like to support the Vote for this very important ministry and advise the Government, – I can see Ministers quarrelling amongst themselves. For instance, the hon. Minister of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs is not in talking terms with the hon. Minister of Tourism and Art and is not in talking terms with the Minister of Gender and Child Development because of early marriages which she calls child marriages. I do not even know why they are called child marriages. Is it that children are marrying each other? I think the correct term should be early marriages and not child marriages.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza (Solwezi West): Mr Chairperson, thank you for this opportunity to add my voice to the debate on this very important Vote. I will be very brief with my debate. I agree with what the hon. Member for Kaputa said on boundaries. Additionally, I would like to talk about the recognition of chiefs in our area. Boundaries have the potential to cause disputes, especially in rural areas.

Sir, I would like to thank the hon. Minister for embarking on the construction of chiefs’ houses and palaces. For your information, my career started as a councillor for chiefs. That is why I have a passion for chiefs’ welfare. So, we want to ensure that chiefs feel good about assuming the status of a chief and living in a good house.

Mr Mwale: Like the Bemba chief.

The Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Mwale.

Mr Mwanza: Sir, on the succession of chiefs, I have information to the effect that Chiefs Chewe and Chimbuka are from Chinsali District. The recognition of these chiefs has taken place earlier than that of Henry Chanda Sosala who is Paramount Chief for that area.

Mr Mbulakulima: Paramount Chief.

Mr Mwanza: Yes, Paramount chief for that area.

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza: Mr Chairperson, that is irregular. My brothers and sisters in the Patriotic Front (PF) should realise the need to respect these institutions. We should respect our chiefs. Chief Chewe should not have been recognised earlier than Mr Chanda Sosala. At the moment, the Government is wondering what is happening to Mr Chanda Sosala. However, he, too, is wondering what is happening.

Hon. MMD Member interjected.

Mr Mwanza: Sorry, Sir, but there is a lot of interest, …

The Chairperson: You people are disturbing his line of thought.

Mr Mwanza: I think the Government of the day, …

The Chairperson: Order!


Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.


Mr Mwanza: Mr Chairperson, when business was suspended, I was agreeing with the hon. Member for Kaputa and paying gratitude to the hon. Minister for introducing the construction of chiefs’ palaces and houses. I was also saying that I have a passion for chiefs because I was a counsellor for chiefs.

Sir, I would like to say that Chiefs Chewe and Chimbuka of Chinsali District were party cadres who were made chiefs.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza: That is why they were recognised earlier than Mr Chanda Sosala. I would like to say that, …

Mr Namulambe: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, the hon. Member of Parliament for Solwezi West has indicated that he was once a councillor for chiefs. Is he in order to demean the status of Their Royal Highnesses by referring to them as cadres?

Sir, I need your serious ruling.

The Deputy Chairperson: The serious ruling is that we must always desist from debating people who are not in the House because they are incapable of defending themselves. 

Hon. Member, you may continue.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza: Mr Chairperson, I would also like to say that the institution of chiefs plays an important role in the democratic process of the country. Therefore, it would be wonderful if it would be nurtured in the manner that the hon. Minister has indicated in her policy statement. 

However, I wish to state that the Government has been parading some chiefs at political rallies. For example, in Mufumbwe in the North-Western Province, chiefs were paraded at a rally and asked to say one or two things. This was done against their will and they are not happy about it. So, the Ruling Party should not involve chiefs in its activities. If the PF is disorganised, let it remain that way.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kapata: Question!

Mr Mwanza: Mr Chairperson, the other issue …

Mr Livune: Mukamfwilwa president.


Mr Mwanza: Mr Chairperson, the country has just celebrated its Golden Jubilee Independence and this is the time for us to reconcile. The people in power should ensure that Mr Chanda Sosala is recognised as Paramount Chief Chitimukulu immediately. If this is not done, it will be up to the incoming Government to do so. If that happens, what are our colleagues across going to say? The PF can form the new Government.

Mr Livune: The United Party for National Development (UPND).

Mr Mwanza: It can be the United Party for National Development (UPND) or Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD).

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza: Mr Chairperson, it is important that we put our differences aside and ensure that those who deserve to be chiefs are recognised. If we do that, we shall be respected as hon. Members of Parliament who value our traditional leaders. On the other hand, we should ensure that we avoid parading chiefs at political rallies.

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Member of Parliament for Kaputa raised a very important point with regard to boundary disputes. The Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs promised this House that it was going to give us maps for chiefdoms. That was over a year ago. I do not know what the problem is because the Government Printers has all the materials required to produce these maps. So, why is the Government procrastinating? The Government should ensure that the boundary maps are given to all hon. Members of Parliament to take to their constituencies.

Mr Pande: That will actually help the Government.

Mr Mwanza: Yes, it will help the Government to resolve issues in Senior Chief Musele or Chief Matebo’s areas, for example. At the moment, we do not know the chiefdom boundaries in this country. So, it is very important that the Government ensures that this is done.

Mr Chairperson, I have a lot of respect for the House of Chiefs. Unfortunately, the decisions of the House of Chiefs are not disseminated to the rest of the chiefs in the country. Only the people who sit in the House of Chiefs know about the decisions that are made there. Here, at Parliament, the Hansard is produced. It can be taken anywhere for people to read what is discussed in the House. Additionally, as I speak now, the people of Solwezi West are listening because the proceedings of the House are broadcast live. They know who is doing right or wrong. 


Mr Mwanza: Some people have said that I am tribalistic. I am not tribalistic. I just call a spade a spade. I do not call it a spoon or anything else. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza: So, our colleagues on your right must make sure that they do the right thing. If they do the right thing, we shall collaborate. If not, I will tell them that they are wrong. 

Mr Chairperson, on several occasions, the Ruling Party has paraded chiefs at rallies. 

Prof. Luo interjected.

Mr Mwanza: Mr Chairperson, the House of Chiefs does not circulate the agenda of its meetings and decisions to other chiefs in the provinces. The only people who are privy to what happens in the House of Chiefs are the representatives themselves. This is not fair. For instance, there are many chiefs in the North-Western Province. However, only four are members of the House of Chiefs. Those who are not members of the House of Chiefs are also entitled to know what happens there for them to contribute effectively to whatever is happening in the House of Chiefs as well as in their chiefdoms. As a result, they always ask hon. Members of Parliament about the proceedings of the House of Chiefs, which is wrong.

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister talked about a consultant on traditional ceremonies being attached to her ministry. I hope and trust that this person will be Zambian because there is a tendency of leaving out Zambians. We seem not to want to benefit from the expertise of fellow Zambians, but prefer to use the expertise of foreigners, especially ba zungus or white people.


Mr Mwanza: We do not want that.

Mr Mwale: Where do they come from?

Mr Mwanza: I do not know where they come from, but I am warning the ministry to stop doing that. Zambians are better placed to advise chiefs on what types of traditions to follow. We should not even hire fellow black people from neighbouring countries. We do not want that. We want real Zambians to be involved in traditional affairs. It does not matter whether they are Bemba or Kaonde.



Mr Mwanza: No, we do not want whites.

Mr Livune: What about Nigerians?

Mr Mwanza: So, …

Prof. Luo interjected.

Mr Mwanza: … Hon. Minister, …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Can you, please, debate through the Chair.

Mr Mwanza: Mr Chairperson, sorry about that. 

Overall, I think that the hon. Minister has articulated the issues of her ministry very well and we must support her. However, some people called me when we were on break.


Mr Mwanza: They told me that retainers do not get paid on time. As you know, each chief has a retainer. The hon. Minister did not mention them in her statement. Whereas the ministry is able to pay the Permanent Secretary (PS), directors and all other workers, retainers are not paid on time. The PF must remember that it is the ordinary people like retainers that put it in power. Therefore, the Government should ensure that chiefs’ retainers are paid on time.

Mr Chairperson, I promised that I was going to be brief but, because of the interjection from the people of Solwezi West during break, I have stayed a little longer on the Floor. I, however, support the Vote. 

Thank you very much, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Prof. Luo: Mr Chairperson, I would to thank the hon. Members who have debated this Vote. These are Hon. Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo, Hon. Ng’onga, Hon. Dr Kaingu who, unfortunately, is not in the House.

Mr Pande: He is here.

Prof. Luo: He is here? Okay. This includes Hon. Mwanza who was the last one to debate. Let me make a few comments in winding up debate on this Vote. With regard to the issue of chiefdom boundaries, I would like to state that the conflicts are a serious problem. As a ministry, we are cognisant of that and have tried very hard to understand why, suddenly, there are these wrangles among chiefs over boundaries. 

Mr Chairperson, I would also like to discuss what the challenges and solutions have been. One of the reasons there are these wrangles among chiefs over boundaries is that land has become valuable. However, the conflicts are specific to particular chiefdoms. Prior to the Patriotic Front coming into power, chiefs started doing something unprecedented. They started selling land. When one chief runs out of land, he/she wants to encroach on the other chief’s land and then a dispute arises. In the chiefdoms where we have identified this problem in partnership with the local government, we have written to the councils not to process any title deeds for those chiefdoms. The affected chiefdoms are Mungule, Kaindu, Sikongo in Chirundu and many others.

Sir, it would have been helpful if the boundary maps had narrations. We have boundary maps without narrations. It has been difficult for us to resolve disputes in the absence of narrations. I have had several meetings with my colleague, the hon. Minister of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection. I hope when he makes his policy statements, he will give insights in to whether there is a budget line for us to either draw completely new maps with narrations or add narrations to the existing maps.

Sir, as a ministry, we are not reactive but proactive. I am sure some of you have heard that we are all over the place. There are times when my children say to me, “Mother, when will you have time for your children?” This is because His Excellency Mr Michael Chilufya Sata wanted us to solve problems on the spot, not through the phone or from the office. So, we went everywhere. That is being proactive.

Mr Chairman, as much as we appreciate the amount of work the indunas and village headmen and women are doing, we are not in a position to pay them. I will give the reasons for this and the solutions we have come up with. Some chiefdoms have close to 300 villages. Even if I paid them as little as K10, this would bust the budget. The reason is that our villages are not well organised because they have not been defined. A family can go in the middle of the bush without informing the chief, build houses and appoint the son or father as village headman, and that becomes a village. 

The ministry is defining villages by giving the minimum number of households for a place to be called a village. In fact, this will also help the Ministries of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education, and Health with their planning. This is the reason we are still talking about distances to school and health centres. If we cluster the villagers, it will be easy to build a school, hospital or clinic within reach. So, currently, staff from my ministry are conducting research. We shall bring the findings to this House after Cabinet approval. A Bill will be brought to the House on the reorganisation of villages. This will sort out a lot of issues.

Mr Chairperson, the compensation of villagers for land that has been taken by the council is an issue that we, as the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs, have been complaining about. This does not only apply to land that is given to the council but also investors. My colleagues in the Ministry of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection will tell you the battles my ministry has had to fight to ensure that the people are well compensated. One of the examples I can give is the land where the Kalumbila Mine is. People have been living in this place for generations, but when they are displaced, they are given K6,000 as compensation. I did not accept this. Then, they built them small houses that looked like toilets. Again, I said, “No chance, you have to build them proper houses.”

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Prof. Luo: This is because I believe that people must be compensated properly. I asked what formula they had used, and they said they were using an international formula. So, I said, “Let us devise our own formula to compensate people.” I agree with the hon. Members’ sentiments and the ministry has taken care of that.

With regard to the remuneration of retainers, we want to conduct activities in the chiefdoms that will benefit people immediately. I did not want to raise some of the issues that hon.  Members referred to because we have not yet finalised the work. We are trying to implement what is called the Community Public Limited Companies (PLCs) where people can generate their own income, but I think that is something that we can come and talk about at an opportune time. 

Sir, there are two issues of conflict between animals and people. As you know, Hon. Ng’onga, the Ministries of Tourism and Art, Chiefs and Traditional Affairs, Home Affairs, and Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection have been to your area to resolve this, but the majority of people go there to poach.

Mr Mutale: Hear, hear!

Prof Luo: So, we need to deal with that too.

With regard to the issue of recognition of chiefs, I would like to say that it is governed by the Chiefs Act. There are laid-down procedures that should be followed. Since I do not like hullabaloo, I would like to give an example of Chief Tafuna’s area where the Sinyangwe family went into extinction in the 1800s, but got up to claim back its chiefdom after Chief Tafuna died. Then, another group said that it wanted to be patrilineal and start a new system because it does not like the matrilineal system that was followed before. So, they are now going to be patrilineal. 

Sir, I wish I could exchange positions with Hon. Mwanza. I would have loved to see how he would deal with these problems. They are not as easy as you think. Matters relating to chiefs are very sensitive. Some of you, politicians, are the ones who politicise issues and make it difficult for procedures to be followed. Let me tell you that I came into this Government with a professorship. So, I will not do wrong things because they will follow me. I am going to follow procedures to the letter. 


Prof Luo: There is nothing like hatred. Let me even tell you that some of the chiefs you mentioned are more related to me than anybody else in this House because my father comes from that chiefdom, but I have to follow procedure.

Mr Chairperson, on how we can carry out community activities, as I told you, we interface with other ministries. In fact, this is like telepathy. Today, we had discussions with the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Livestock on how we can actually get support for agricultural activities in our chiefdoms. We had a meeting with the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry on how we can add value to the produce from chiefdoms. So, we are on course. I did not want to talk about the development of chiefdoms today because I talked about it last time. 

Thank you very much for all the contributions. Thank you for supporting my budget. However, I hope that some of you will tone down when raising some issues because we do not want to politicise issues when we are trying to do the correct things.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 13/01 – (Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs – Headquarters – K71,725,259).

Mr Mutelo (Lukulu West): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5002. All the activities under this Programme have not been funded except one, that is, Activity 007 – Labour Day Celebration – K49,850. May I know why this is so.

The Deputy Minister of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs (Mrs Kawandami): Mr Chairperson, this programme is meant to facilitate the commemoration of both local and international events.


Mrs Kawandami: The reduction is due to the alignment of other activities …


Mrs Kawandami: Eh! Ifi bampele nafilubana, mwe.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! 

Clarification is sought in respect of all the activities except Activity 007 – Labour Day Celebration – K49,850, and the question is: Why have the other activities not been funded?

Mrs Kawandami: Mr Chairperson, the activities have been re-aligned to the Planning, Research and Information Department.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milambo (Mwembeshi): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5004, Activity 026 – Heritage Site Management – K2,200,000. This provision has been kept constant in 2014 and 2015. Why is this so?


The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Are we on the same page? There is a reduction there.

Mr Milambo: Mr Chairperson, why is there a reduction?


Prof. Luo: Mr Chairperson, in my policy statement, I said that although there is an increase in the allocation for my ministry, in real terms, there has been no increase. Therefore, what has happened is that in some of the activities, we have a reduction in the amounts allocated because that money was realigned so that we can go and serve the National Heritage Conservation Commission and Museums. 

I thank you, Sir.    

Vote 13/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 13/02 – (Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs – Human Resources and Administration Department – K2,583,451).

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5129, Activity 001 – Orientation of Newly-Installed Chiefs – Nil, Activity 002 – Training of Chiefs for Development – Nil. There is no money allocated for these activities next year. Does it mean that there will be no newly-installed chiefs to be orientated in 2015?

Prof. Luo: Mr Chairperson, we know that there will be new chiefs that will require orientation but, because we have other programmes such as the Child Marriage Programme, programmes under sanitation, and so on and so forth, for which we are expecting support, we think that the best way to orient the chiefs is not to have stand-alone activities, but to give them comprehensive orientation under those programmes so that all the issues that need to be covered at chiefdom level are addressed. That is the prudent way of using resources.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Miyanda (Mapatizya): Mr Chairpersons, may I have clarification on Programme 5008, Activity 020 – Audit of Projects – K40,000. There was no allocation for this activity in 2014. I would like to find out what kind of projects will be audited in 2015 which were not in 2014.

Prof. Luo: Mr Chairperson, we have started implementing projects in chiefdoms such as the construction of palaces where chiefdoms have received direct support from my ministry this year. Since there is no financial accounting staff in my ministry, part of the money will be given to the councils while some of it will be given to the provincial administration. We would like to start auditing the programmes next year. 

Vote 13/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 13/03 – (Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs – House of Chiefs Department – K2,779,359).

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5079, Activity 001 – Transport Management – Nil, Activity 002 – Maintenance of Vehicles – Nil, Activity 005 – Insurance of Motor Vehicles – Nil. In 2015, the ministry is not going to maintain the vehicles. Why?

Prof. Luo: Mr Chairperson, again, we have re-aligned the management of things. Instead of each department maintaining vehicles, we believe that this should fall under the administrative wing. Therefore, these activities will be conducted by the Directorate of Human Resources and Administration.

I thank you Sir.

Mr Milambo: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5079, Activity 005 – Insurance of Motor Vehicles – Nil. In 2014, there was a provision of K60,000 for this activity. In 2015, however, there is nothing.  Does this mean that the vehicles acquired in 2014 will not be insured? 

Prof. Luo: Mr Chairperson, if the hon. Member was listening, he would have heard my response to this question under transport management. I said that in an effort to be prudent in the use of resources, the ministry has re-aligned transport management, insurance and procurement so that instead of each department doing their own thing by going to different insurance companies, everything is done under the Directorate of Human Resource and Administration. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Miyanda: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5064, Activity 005 –House of Chiefs Sessions – K103,360. This amount has reduced from K640,000. I would like to find out what has necessitated this. Will the number of sessions for the House of Chiefs be reduced? 

Prof. Luo: Mr Chairperson, some of the money being removed from the House of Chiefs budget line is for the administration and maintenance of vehicles. It is all about re-alignment.  

Secondly, we have revised how we shall be dealing with payments when chiefs come for the sessions. In the past, we kept the chiefs in one hotel. However, sometimes, when the session comes to an end, chiefs stay on an additional three or so days and the bill is sent to the ministry. We have, therefore, decided that chiefs be given allowances so that they can stay wherever they want and depart whenever they wish when the session comes to an end. 

We were incurring very high bills. So, when we did the calculations, we discovered that we only needed K103,360 for the sessions. This is because we want to liberate some money and put it in development activities in the chiefdoms so that everybody, including villagers, benefit.  Again, it is just re-aligning, learning lessons from the past and improving for the future. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Vote 13/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 13/05 – (Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs – Chiefs and Traditional Affairs Department – K60,811,585).

Dr Musokotwane (Liuwa): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5128, Activity 238 – Construction of Chiefs’ Palaces – K18,902,495 and Activity 239 – Rehabilitation of Chiefs Palaces – K970,000.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to find out how many palaces are envisioned to be constructed with this amount this year. Also, can the hon. Minister confirm that the Libonda Palace is one of the palaces to be constructed. 

Prof. Luo: Mr Chairperson, we are only constructing thirty palaces this year because of the limited resources at our disposal. If you listened to my policy statement, I said that we have changed the manner in which the palaces will be constructed. Instead of going to a contractor and paying K1,000,000, and constructing only twenty palaces, we are using the Zambia National Service (ZNS) who are costing us far less. Therefore, thirty palaces will be constructed from this amount. However, I am not able to say whether Libonda Palace will be amongst the palaces to be constructed. If the hon. Member of Parliament is interested, we can make available the list of palaces to be constructed this year and next year. 

Mr Chairperson, Hon. Kawandami has just handed me the list of palaces to be constructed in the Western Province. We will continue to rehabilitate the Litunga’s Palace because the project has already commenced. We are going to build palaces for Chieftainess Litunga La Mboela, Senior Chief Inyambo Yeta, Chieftainess Mbwanjikana and Chief Lukama. These are the palaces we shall construct in 2015.

Mr Mbulakulima (Chembe): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5130, Activity 001 – Food and Nutrition in Chiefdoms – K48,700, Activity 007 – Sensitisation on Male Circumcision – K48,700 and Activity 009 – Sexual and Gender-based Violence K48,700. 

Hon. Minister, Activity 009, which was allocated K50,000 in 2014, has been allocated K48,700 in 2015. Activities 001 and 007 have also been allocated the same amount. What is the rationale behind allocating the same amount, especially that gender-based violence is on the increase? 

Prof. Luo: Mr Chairperson, first and foremost, issues to do with gender-based violence fall under the Ministry of Gender and Child Development while those related to nutrition fall under the Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Child Health. 

As a ministry, however, we have taken the initiative to look for resources elsewhere because of the limitation we have. What we are providing for here is a budget line so that, maybe, one day, when the Ministry of Finance sees the need to support these areas in a particular manner, they will increase the amount. We are, therefore, leaving them in our budget so that they remain active.
I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Lufuma (Kabompo West): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5002, Activity 019 – Traditional Ceremonies – Nil. According to the policy statement, the hon. Minister emphasised that this ministry has a special place for traditional ceremonies which are the background to tradition and encourage tourism. Unfortunately, this is not supported in budgetary terms because there is no allocation for 2015, and yet K253,107 was allocated in 2014.  Could we have an explanation as to why this budget line is in conflict with your policy statement. 

Prof. Luo: Mr Chairperson, these are the resources that have been made available to my ministry, but that does not stop us from looking for support elsewhere. As I mentioned earlier, we are working with the Fullbright Fellowship to ensure that we enhance this area. It is important for us to leave it here. In fact, the more you debate in the House, the more the hon. Minister of Finance will see the need to increase the allocation to the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs.

Sir, I remember that we got very little money when we began the Social Cash Transfer Scheme because people did not believe in it. However, it has grown three hundredfold. People kept reminding each other that the Social Cash Transfer Scheme was an engine for economic growth. I am glad with the way hon. Members have debated today, and I am sure the hon. Minister of Finance is listening.

I thank you, Sir. 

Vote 13/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

VOTE 13/06 – (Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs – Planning, Research and Information Department – K2,916,204). 

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Chairperson, may I seek clarification on Programme 1002, Activity 046 – Zambia International Trade Fair – K300,000. There is an allocation of K94,367 for this year and K300,000 for next year. What new things are you taking to the trade fair which have necessitated the increase?

Prof. Luo: Mr Speaker, if you have been paying attention to what has been happening not only at the trade fairs, but also at the agricultural shows in the last three years, …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, hon. Minister!

I beg your indulgence. Can the hon. Member tell me which programme he is referring to? 


Hon. Government Members: He does not know.

The Deputy Chairperson: I thought that you were referring to a provision under the Ministry of Mines, Energy and Water Development.

Hon. Government Members: Yes.


Vote 13/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 14 – (Ministry of Mines, Energy and Water Development – K467,306,276).

The Minister of Mines, Energy and Water Development (Mr Yaluma): Mr Chairperson, I wish to thank you for this opportunity to present the 2015 Budget Estimates for the Ministry of Mines, Energy and Water Development.

Sir, let me begin by congratulating the hon. Minister of Finance on a well-presented Budget whose theme is “Celebrating our Golden Jubilee as One Zambia One Nation by Making Economic Independence a Reality for All”. The theme best describes our goal as a nation. 

Mr Chairperson, my ministry, being the custodian of three important economic sectors, is key in realising this goal. My ministry’s mandate remains that of developing and managing mineral, energy and water resources in a sustainable manner for the benefit of the people of Zambia. As such, the role of my ministry in making economic independence a reality for all cannot be overemphasised. 

Sir, in this year’s Budget, the ministry’s allocation has increased to K467 million from K353,211,807 in the 2014 Budget. As you are aware, Zambia’s economic growth is synonymous with the development of the mining sector, while the energy and water sectors are the foundation and backbone on which all our development processes depend. For this reason, since the Patriotic Front Government came into power, my ministry has continued perusing policy measures and programmes that ensure that the contribution of these sectors to national development is enhanced. 

Mr Chairperson, my statement will be in three parts. I will discuss the three sectors, beginning with mining, highlighting the achievements in 2014 and priority programmes in 2015. 

Sir, the performance of the mining sector during 2014 was not up to expectation. Copper production decreased to 320,501 metric tonnes in the first half of 2014 from 351,921 metric tonnes during the corresponding period in 2013, representing a 9 per cent decrease in production. The decrease was as a result of operational challenges experienced by some mines during the course of the year. 

On the other hand, a number of mining developments and expansion projects progressed during the year. The completion of these projects, which include First Quantum’s Sentinel Mine and Mopani Synclinorium projects, will contribute to the production of over 1 million metric tonnes of copper production in 2015.

Mr Chairperson, it is regrettable that in 2014, the mining sector experienced challenges which, to some extent, affected its performance. I would like to assure the House and the nation at large, that my ministry is working with other ministries to resolve these problems.

Sir, the performance of the major programmes under the ministry in 2014 was as follows:

Revision of the Legal Anti-Regulatory Framework for the Mining Sector

Following the approval of the Mineral Resource Development Policy in 2013, the review of the Mines and Mineral Development Act, 2008, was completed in 2014 and a Bill was drafted in readiness for presentation to this House. The revision of the Act and its regulation is aimed at streamlining the monitoring and regulation of the mining sector in order to ensure maximum benefits to the country. 

Provision of Geological Information 

The ministry continued geological mapping of part of Kawambwa and Chembe districts. Further, the ministry completed geological and geochemical mapping of Kasama as well as 250,000 km² of the northern part of the country. Significant progress was made in the construction of storage facilities for drill cores in Kabompo and Chibombo districts.

Marketing of Gemstones

Mr Chairperson, the auctioning of emeralds in the country, which commenced in 2013, has continued. Successful auctions of emeralds were held in the country. As the Government, we want to ensure that all gemstones are marketed locally. This will not only ensure that we get maximum benefits from the resource, but also bring about transparency in the sector.

Exploration of Oil and Gas

Sir, the performance of the exploration licences for oil and gas issued in 2011 was reviewed. Companies that were non-compliant were issued with default notices. In addition, nine licences were issued to five companies.

Sir, to build on the achievement made this year, my ministry, in 2015,  will continue to focus on enhancing compliance to regulations by both small and large-scale mining companies, while improving measures to attract investment in the sector. Programmes planned for 2015 include the following: 

(a)    Improving Availability of Geological Information – exploration is an important phase of mining that is critical to the development and management of a mine. The ministry will, therefore, continue with the geological mapping of some areas in Luapula and Northern provinces. The ministry will also speed up the digitalisation of geological data in order to enhance the quality and availability of geological information;

(a)    Improving the Mining Rights Licensing System – the beginning point for efficient monitoring and regulation of mining activities is licensing. Therefore, the ministry will continue with the programme to improve the Mining Rights Licensing System. Works are ongoing to complete the computerisation of the licensing system which is both manual and electronic. The online portal is expected to be operational in the second quarter of 2015;

(b)    Empowering Zambians to own Productive e Small-Scale Mines – the ministry will continue with the programme of empowering Zambians to own productive small-scale mines by undertaking measures that will include merging some small-scale gemstone-mining plots in order to attract investment in the sector;

(c)    Modernisation of the Ministry – to improve the monitoring and regulation of the mining sector, in 2015, the Government will continue to develop monitoring and regulatory tools, regulations and mechanisms to ensure developments in the mining sector which will translate into benefits for the people of Zambia. The expected outputs of the programme are as follows:

(i)    an efficient and transparent licensing system;

(ii)    an effective monitoring and regulatory framework for efficient data capturing and sharing among Government departments for revenue collection. The monitoring and regulatory framework will be extended to capture data on all minerals, which is a shift from the current situation where focus is mainly on copper; and

(iii)    an upgrade of laboratory facilities for efficient monitoring of mining operations as well as reducing export of mineral samples for analysis. This is expected to contribute towards the reduction of exploration costs.
Development of Gemstone Sub-sector

Mr Chairperson, in the gemstone sub-sector, my ministry will continue to implement measures to promote local marketing of gemstones by encouraging auctioning of gemstones within Zambia by both large and small-scale miners, as directed by the late President in his last Address to this House.

Mineral Exploration and Resource Survey

Sir, the ministry will continue to promote exploration for non-traditional mineral commodities. The focus will be on minerals such as rare earth elements, limestone, gypsum, clays and aluminous rocks on which potential investors have made inquiries. 

Mine Inspection

Sir, the ministry intends to increase capacity at the Mines Safety Department so that there is productivity. It will ensure adherence to mine safety and health regulations by both small and large mining companies in order to reduce mine accidents, environmental pollution and degradation, and promote health. This will involve equipping the laboratories and testing workshop as well as sensitising small-scale miners on safety, health and environment. In the same vein, resources have been provided in next years’ Budget for the Mines Safety Department to assess the impact of mining activities in selected residential areas.

Mr Chairperson, I am confident that the mining sector will continue to grow in 2015 because of the amount of investments that have gone into the sector and the confidence the investors have in our leadership. The Government will ensure that this growth translates into sustainable development of the country. 


Mr Chairperson, in 2014, my ministry continued to implement programmes and projects in the energy sector that were aimed at ensuring that there was security of supply in the country. To achieve this, we continued implementing measurers targeted at:

(a)    increasing the electricity generation capacity;

(b)    improving the transmission and distribution network;

(c)    increasing storage capacity of fuel;  and

(d)    exploring new and innovative ways of developing renewable and alternative energies.

Sir, to increase the electricity-generation capacity and reduce load shedding, the ministry continued with the construction of power plants. As you are aware, the country has experienced a significant reduction in load shedding due to the completion of some power projects both by the Zambia Electricity Supply Corporation Limited (ZESCO) and private power producers. The following are the projects that have been completed:

(a)    Kariba North Bank Extension in Siavonga with an installed capacity of 360 MW; and

(b)    Ndola Heavy Fuel Oil Thermal Power Plant with an installed capacity of 50 MW.

Mr Chairperson, the two power plants added a total generation capacity of 410 MW to the national grid. The ministry is also facilitating the implementation of the following power projects which are expected to be commissioned by the end of this year, 2014:

(a)    Lunzua Hydro Electric Project with an installed capacity of 15 MW;

(b)    Maamba Coal Fired Power Plant with an installed capacity of 150 MW per unit.

Mr Chairperson, the two power plants will have an additional generation capacity to the national grid of 165 MW. This year alone, the additional generation capacity to the national grid will be in excess of 575 MW.

Mr Chairperson, other projects are planned for completion in 2015. These are the Itezhi-tezhi Hydro Power Project with installed capacity of 120 MW and the second unit at Maamba Coal Fired Power Plant with installed capacity of 150 MW. This means that in 2015, we are likely to add 270 MW to the national grid.

Mr Chairperson, in addition to the above projects, other long-term projects in the pipeline include the Batoka Gorge Hydroelectric Power Project with a capacity of 800 MW and Kafue Gorge Hydroelectric Power Project with a capacity of 750 MW and Kabompo Gorge Hydroelectric Power Project with a capacity of 40 MW.

Sir, the ministry also continued facilitating the development of transmission projects to ensure reliability and quality of power supply in the country. Some of the on-going projects include the following:

(a)    330 kV Pensulo – Kasama;

(b)    330 kV Pensulo-Msoro-Chipata Projects;

(c)    330 kV Itezhi-tezhi/Mumbwa/Lusaka West; and

(d)    330 kV Leopards Hills /Lusaka/Luangwa.

My ministry also embarked on the connection of the North-Western Province to the national electricity grid to replace the diesel generators that are currently servicing the province. Other on-going projects include the Lusaka Transmission and Reinforcement Project. This project will increase transmission capacity and improve reliability of electricity transmission and distribution systems in Lusaka.

Mr Chairperson, Zambia is endowed with vast renewable energy resources which are yet to be exploited. In order to increase the utilisation of renewable energy resources for power generation, my ministry has embarked on a process of introducing a Feed-in-Tariff (REFIT) Policy aimed at providing a predictable environment for promoting investment in renewable energy technologies. The REFIT Policy is a mechanism designed to accelerate investment in renewable energy technologies and is expected to be ready by the end of 2014.

Mr Chairperson, to increase fuel storage capacity, in 2014, my ministry, completed the construction of the bulk fuel storage tanks as planned. The construction of the Mpika Fuel Depot was completed and it was commissioned, bringing the number of completed bulk fuel storage tanks to two after the Lusaka Fuel Depot. Construction works in Solwezi are progressing as scheduled, while the Mongu project has reached procurement stage. To ensure the nation continues to be adequately supplied with affordable petroleum products through equitable distribution to its citizenry in all corners of the nation, my ministry has issued a tender for the construction of rural filling stations in Luwingu and Mporokoso.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Yaluma: Further, to understand the emerging issues in the petroleum sector, my ministry undertook a petroleum study whose aim is to address challenges in the sector. The consultant’s report on this matter is ready and is being considered by all relevant stakeholders.

Mr Chairperson, the priority of the ministry in the energy sector in 2015 will be to improve the environment for the electricity sub-sector to thrive. In particular, we shall expedite the review of the Energy Regulation and Electricity Acts in order to improve the attractiveness of the sector. Further, my ministry will continue to implement programmes and projects aimed at increasing electricity-generation capacity. The ministry will also step up efforts to attain cost reflective-electricity tariffs in order to ensure sustainable development of power projects in the country. The House may wish to note that this is a commitment that all Ministers of Energy in the Southern African Development Community (SADC) region have made.

In the renewable energy sub-sector, in 2015, the ministry will continue to promote and develop the bio-fuels industry in Zambia. Bio-fuels have been included in the national fuel mix and will be implemented through the National Bio-fuels Blending Programme. In the interim, ethanol will be imported for blending with petrol before local production commences. To this effect, the ministry has begun the process of securing ethanol for national blending and facilitating local blending.

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

Mr Yaluma: Thank you.

Mr Chairperson, under the water sector, my ministry continued implementing programmes that are aimed at ensuring accessibility to water for various uses. This will include Mwandi, for that matter.

Dr Kaingu: Hear, hear!

Mr Yaluma: The water sector recorded a number of achievements in 2014 which include:

(a)    Purchase of Drilling Rigs – the ministry procured six drilling rigs in 2014 that were distributed to provinces in response to the urgent water needs at reasonable costs;

(b)    Construction of Dams and Boreholes – to facilitate access to water for economic activities and improvement in people’s livelihoods, my ministry rehabilitated eight dams and maintained fifteen dams. Two new dams will be constructed in the Eastern and North-Western provinces by the end of the year. Further, 152 boreholes have been sunk countrywide. In addition, my ministry undertook dam reconnaissance surveys in all the provinces in order to identify potential dam sites. My ministry has also prepared designs for 100 dams; and

(c)    Operationalisation of the Water Resources Management Authority – the House may wish to know that the Water Resources Management Authority (WRMA) came into operation in 2014 as required by the Water Resources Management Act of 2011. The authority will become fully operational in 2015 and will be responsible for the management of water resources. This means that the water resource management activities, which were previously under the Department of Water Affairs, have been transferred to the authority. In this regard, the Department of Water Affairs has now been reorganised and will be migrated into WRMA while planning will reside in the Department of Energy at the ministry.

Mr Chairperson, to build on the 2014 achievements, my ministry will, in 2015, continue implementing the Water Resources Management Act through the construction, maintenance and rehabilitation of dams and boreholes countrywide to ensure that more people have access to water. Further, my ministry will ensure availability of information to facilitate the development of medium and large-scale dams with the aim of improving people’s livelihoods.

In conclusion, I wish to state that my ministry’s budget is reflective of our priorities in the three sectors aimed at contributing to the attainment of economic independence for all. Therefore, I call upon this House to support this budget.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to debate this Vote. I appreciate the hon. Minister’s statement. From the time it has taken him to deliver it, you will agree with me that the hon. Minister has a very huge portfolio. The ministry was realigned to include water development and energy and this made the portfolio bigger. When you look at the budget figures for 2014 as compared to those for 2015, you will see a 75 per cent plus increment, but when you dissect the ministry into sectors, you will then have a difficulty understanding how this increment is going to translate into the achievement that we are longing for.

Sir, to begin with, I will speak a little about the mining sector and, then, I will talk about the energy sector where I think that my little endowment sits. It is often said that in the abundance of a big endowment, Zambia is sitting on a rock and almost everywhere around this country we have minerals, and yet we have poor citizens. This is a paradox that we have to collectively look at and find a way in which we can use the mineral resources to the advantage of those whose interests and aspirations we represent. It is also said that in the midst of plenty, a fool can actually starve, and I think that this is what we are experiencing in this country.

The hon. Minister highlighted a few challenges that the ministry has faced in the mining sub-sector. Among them is the taxation regime and the way in which mining companies are operating in regard to fraud, that is, transfer pricing, against due taxes. Also, something that sits squarely in your lap, as a Government, is the manner in which you have tailored your legislation on taxes. I think that this year has seen unprecedented levels of controversy on taxation.

Sir, I also want to make a quick comment on the conflict between industry and sustainable development. Having said that Zambia sits on a huge rock of minerals, we have had conflicts in the Lower Zambezi which are now in the court of law. The conflicts emanate from the use of legislation that gives the Minister power to overturn decisions that are made by the Zambia Environmental Management Agency (ZEMA). At the whims of his/her desire, the Minister can actually reverse the decisions that promote the environment and sustainable development in tourism. I am sure you understand what I am talking about. I am praying to my gods, whom I believe are alive, that when that court case is dispensed of, Zambezi Resources will not be allowed to start mining in the game park.

Sir, it is also generally known that fuel and electricity are catalysts for development. I see that the hon. Minister is also responsible for water development. Indeed, these two are related in that most of the electricity that we consume in this country is, by and large, generated from hydro power. So, we have a duty to take care of the Zambezi River Basin which, unfortunately, is a shared water resource with other countries. The Zambezi River has a source in Ikeleng’i. This heritage site has not been given the attention it deserves. This has been the case with successive governments. This is because many of us cross the Zambezi River which feeds into the Kafue River and simply think that this is God’s endowment. It has a source and, once it is disturbed, this bulky long river that pours into the Cahora Bassa Rapids may deny us this catalyst that I call electricity one day. So, I would like to inform the hon. Minister that his Government needs to put a little bit of care and money in the source of the Zambezi River. 

That notwithstanding, it is also true that Zambia harbours more or less than 40 per cent of the water bodies in the region, especially in the Northern Circuit. You have hydro potential at, inter alia, the Ntumba Chushi, Lumangwe and Kalambo falls in Mbala. So, I think that you need a robust plan. Whilst your budget shows an overall increment of 75 per cent, you need a robust plan to make sure that the electricity energy sector is given the attention that it deserves. I am aware that from the US$750 million Eurobond, you put about US$186 million in the development of the Kafue Gorge Lower Power Station.

However, the investment required in the development of the Kafue Gorge Lower Power Station is in excess of US$2 billion. I am sure that probably using the Office of Promoting Private Power (OPPI), which you have not mentioned in your discourse because your ministry is big, you require partners. In getting those partners, there are issues that obviously come into play in regard to issues of tariffs. 

Mr Chairperson, there is no investor who is going to invest in Zambia when he/she knows that his/her return on investment is a very distant future from the time he/she puts money in the investment. These are areas that require harmonisation and clear-cut definitions. We know from inception or from the time of feasibility studies that the project should have taken six years. I hope that the six-year mark still remains a target for you to produce an extra 750 MW of power for this country which will definitely alleviate the current situation where demand continuously outstrips supply. 

Sir, the ground-breaking ceremony for the Kariba North Bank Extension Project, which you mentioned, was in 2008/9 when Hon. Kenneth Konga was Minister of Energy and I was Chairperson of the Committee on Economic Affairs, Energy and Labour. We witnessed the ground-breaking ceremony for the Kariba North Bank Extension Project. You should feel lucky that it has come to fruition at the time when you are managing the affairs of this country. Obviously, an extra 360 MW is a big alleviation on the electricity demand market. You also spoke about the 50 MW of power from a private operator in Ndola, which is the Ndola Heavy Fuel Oil Plant. Of course, that is good, but I think that we are moving at a slow pace. We need to double our space on the improvement of power generation. 

Sir, you talked of the Batoka Gorge without details. I would like to know how much money has gone into the feasibility study in order to yield this 800 MW because it will also serve as a relief on the current situation.

Sir, I would also like to find out whether you can comment on the South African Power Pool (SAPP). You know as much as I do that in the region, there was a project that was going to develop electricity from the Grand Inga Dam of the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) in excess of 40,000 MW. This would have been a more permanent solution to the power deficit in not only in Zambia, but also in the region.

 I would also like to find out why it has taken so long for the Government to improve or upgrade the D769 Road to Itezhi-tezhi. I know that 48 per cent of the works, had been achieved by the beginning of this year. When you came into office, we discussed that the equipment that was associated with putting up a power plant was delicate. To date, that power plant not been put up, and yet your Government has just been upgrading roads to bituminous standard that lead to nowhere. Itezhi-tezhi, which you amputated from the Southern Province to a province of your desire, still has remained a very bad road.

I know that about 20 km of the road from Itezhi-tezhi Town has been graded. Now, a trip of 96 km still takes you over an hour if you are driving a 4 x 4 wheel-drive vehicle. To me, I think that is not putting money where your mouth is. It will be important for you to shed a bit of light on why your Government has not put up a bituminous standard road to Itezhi-tezhi because you know that Itezhi-tezhi was just a holding dam to give relief to the Kafue Gorge Power Station so that when the water swells, then, the floodgates are opened in order to regulate the flow of water. Now, we are lucky that because of that initiative, we are going to get an extra 120 MW of power.

Sir, the hon. Minister spoke about renewable energy and I wanted to make some remarks on that. However, since I have only got two minutes on the Floor, I would like to find out whether I can go to his office tomorrow since he also talked about dams. He knows that I have been lamenting the repair of the Mugoto Dam which is less than 48 km south of here. The Government has attempted to repair the dam but has failed. The man I interfaced with, Dr Guy Scott, who is in-charge of the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU), has a new job now as Acting President.


Mr Nkombo: The rainy season has begun and water is seeping from that dam into the Cahora Bassa Rapids. We keep hearing that water is life. However, I think that water can be turned into United States Dollars because we can use it for irrigation, feed our cattle and do many other things. Any type of agriculture depends on water. I would like a comment from the hon. Minister on this issue as he responds to other concerns that I have raised. Why is the Government promising us dams in next year’s Budget when it has failed to repair a small dam at Mugoto to uplift the livelihood of the people in that area?

Sir, I thank you for the opportunity to debate this Vote.

Dr Kaingu: Mr Chairperson, I will be very brief. In the early 1960’s up to 1973, our economy was depended on copper. The Government then built a lot of infrastructure, including the University of Zambia (UNZA). However, now that copper production and prices are very high, the mines are failing to contribute reasonably to the revenue of this country. So many conflicting statements have come from the mining houses, and one wonders why this Government is failing to trap the money that exists in the mines.

Mr Chairperson, I just hope that the fiscal policy that the hon. Minister has come up with now will help us get more revenue from what is being generated from the mines. I am almost inclined to support the Government’s intention to bring back the Industrial Development Corporation (INDECO). Maybe, it was because we had INDECO in the past that the mines were well managed. Now that the mines are in private hands, we do not seem to be getting a fair share of the revenue that is generated from there. I strongly believe that the Budget can be funded by the mines alone, especially that mineral prices are good and production is high. 

Mr Chairperson, the other issue I would like to talk about is in regard to the Western Province. Is the hon. Minister telling me that there are no minerals in that province and that everywhere else in this country there are minerals except in the Western Province? We share the border with the North-Western Province where there is copper. It appears the copper deposits end at the border with the North-Western Province. We are near Angola where there is oil and diamonds, but on our side of the border, there is nothing. We also share the border with Namibia where there are diamonds, but just across the Zambezi River in the Western Province, there is nothing. Is it because this Government does not like the people of the Western Province?


Mr Kalaba: Question!

Dr Kaingu: It is a question, yes. What else can it be?


The Deputy Chairperson: Please, do not respond to the hecklers.

Dr Kaingu: Sir, thank you very much for your guidance. 

My question was directed at the hon. Minister. He needs to do something about this matter in the fifty-five days or so that he has in office.


Dr Kaingu: Mr Chairperson, as I wind up my debate, I want to mention one issue that is dear to my heart. As the saying goes, “Water is life”. Therefore, I am so glad that the hon. Minister says that he has provided money in his ministry’s budget to drill boreholes and construct dams in Mwandi Constituency. If the hon. Minister does not do that, his words will consume him. I am sure that is not swearing.


Dr Kaingu: He has said this on his own accord. The people of Mwandi are in dire need of water. I have clearly stated that there is no place in this country which is as arid as Mwandi because of the Kalahari Desert that is encroaching on my constituency. However, the Government does not seem to care and keeps telling us to wait for something to be done. I do not know whether feasibility studies are still being conducted.

Sir, as I leave, I seek your indulgence to recognise the presence of my friend, the presidential-elect, Hon. Edgar Lungu. 

Thank you, Sir.


Dr Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, I will be quite brief. Indeed, the mining sector is very important for the economy of our country. When you look at the national accounts, you will notice that the contribution of the mining sector to the gross domestic product (GDP) is actually quite modest. It is about 13 to 14 per cent. 

However, these figures are quite deceiving because, in reality, the mining sector is the foundation of so many economic activities that are reported elsewhere in the national accounts. Without the mining sector, the construction sector would not have been developing as fast as is the case at the moment. Without the mining sector, the growth that we see in the energy sector would not be taking place because most of the energy that is being produced is bought by the mining sector. The transport sector would suffer a lot without the mining sector. So, mining is very important.

Mr Chairperson, you may have noticed that when the mining sector was struggling, almost everything else deteriorated in the economy. Therefore, I want to appeal to the hon. Minister to take very good care of this industry. At the moment, there is some economic diversification taking place, but the truth of the matter is that the foundation of the economy still remains mining. 

As we all know, this sector has been nurtured over the years. About ten to fifteen years ago, the mining sector was on the rocks and people lost their jobs. The troubles that we see in the railway sector today are a direct result of the fact that there was simply no cargo to carry. There was no copper to carry. So, we need to take care of the mining sector. 

Sir, the mining sector has grown significantly. In the early 90’s, the total export earnings from the mining sector were less than US$1 billion. That was ten to fifteen years ago. Today, I believe that our earnings from the mining sector are about US$7 billion. However, this required a lot of careful policy making and formulation.

Mr Chairperson, it is not about the price only. People get confused and say it is the price. No, it is not. This is because, in the 70’s, when the copper industry was declining in this country, elsewhere, like in Chile and Colombia, it was expanding. The prices of copper obtaining in those countries where the same here. Why did it expand in Chile, Colombia and Peru, but declined in Zambia from 750,000 metric tonnes to only about 200,000 metric tonnes. Why did it decline in Congo from more than a million metric tonnes to only 30,000 metric tonnes? Can you imagine, from a million to 30, 000 metric tonnes? This all has to do with the policy environment. So, please, take care of this industry that we depend on.

Mr Chairperson, I think there is every reason to get worried. Once again, today, we are embroiled in a dispute with the mining sector arising from the new tax that has been introduced, with some mines threatening to close. I am not going to get into the debate about who is right and who is wrong. All that I am saying is that you should take care of the industry. If it collapses, we are all going to suffer. 

Mr Chairperson, from the time the Patriotic Front (PF) came into office, I do not believe there is a single mine that has been opened. If we talk about Kalumbila, we remember very clearly how the ground breaking ceremony was conducted under President Ruphiah Banda. You need to start preparing now for the next mine to open. I have not heard about anything that is being done now for us to look forward to the opening of the next mine. Unless that is done today, future jobs in the mining sector are threatened. In any case, there are very few jobs today in the mining sector. 

People expect that because there are two three, four, five mines, all the economic problems of the country are going to be solved. That is not how it works. This reminds me of the time when there was no hotel in Livingstone. Then came the Sun Hotel, and everybody said, “Aha, there is a big hotel, now! The roads will be done worked on. The hotel is going to pay. Now, jobs are going to be created. The hotel is going to create the jobs.” It is not possible. If you want the mining sector to create more jobs, you must create an environment that attracts more and more mines.

Sir, let me move onto the energy sector and comment on what the hon. Minister has said. We are happy about the projects that have been mentioned, hon. Minister. However, I am still concerned because many of the projects that you are mentioning were discussed and almost implemented three, four, five years ago.

Mr Mwale: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Three, four, five years ago, Hon. Nkombo talked about the Kafue Gorge expansion. Three, four, five years ago, we talked about the Lunzuwa,and Lusiwasi falls. So, I am surprised that we are still talking about these projects being in the implementation phase today. These projects should have been completed by now. We should have been moving towards the new projects. We should not be talking about the coal project in Maamba because it is an old project. The Itezhi-tezhi project with TATA dates back five to eight years ago. Why have there been delays in these projects? What is the policy environment that obtains today that is causing delays in these projects?

So, yes, I appreciate whatever has been done, but my contention is that we are moving too slowly. Remember that the population of Zambia is growing. You cannot be happy creating a few jobs because behind us there is a wave of young people coming onto the labour market. At the pace things are happening, I am afraid this wave of young people coming behind us is going to consume us.

Let me briefly talk about the issue of energy. I have said before, but now I want to talk about it in the context of my constituency, that we have this fabulous asset, the Liuwa National Park which I talked about yesterday. Unless we have the infrastructure that is required to take investment to that place, we will not realise its full potential. Yesterday, I talked about how the Lunzuwa Power Station came about. It was to provide the energy required for hotels and conference facilities in the middle of Africa which, as I said, is a conference facility that will be second to none in Africa. We need power. 

Similarly, in Liuwa, we are looking forward to your putting up a power line around the park. It is the only major asset of substance at the moment. Like Hon. Dr Kaingu said, surely, there must be diamonds and oil in that area, but they have not yet been discovered. What we know is that there is wildlife. Give us power so that we can attract hotels in the park.

Finally, Sir, we have lots of water in the Western Province. There is hardly anywhere you can dig up to 2 m without finding water. Water is very near the surface, but water development in the province, especially for human consumption, is very poor. The other problem is that most of the water in the Western Province is salty. If you sink a borehole a little dipper, you will find that the water is salty. Those who live in places where the water level is lower, including my own constituency Liuwa, have a problem of water for consumption. I hope that you will take this into account as you draw your development plan.

Mr Chairperson, I want to thank the hon. Minister once again. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Mr Chairperson, I would like to say that I support the Vote, but I would like to remind the Government about the following:

Canals are very important to the Western Province like you have heard from the hon. Member for Liuwa. Whilst some places do not need canals, we need canals just like the body needs blood vessels.


Mr Miyutu: The bulk of the water needs to flow and join the main rivers. Due to the lack of canals, people are not able to have a good harvest. That is why there is hunger throughout the province. When we go round the constituency, people ask about canals. So, Mr Chairperson, …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.


Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, when business was suspended, I was on the subject of canals. In the 2014 Budget, the Government made a provision for canals. However, this is November and nothing has been done. Canals are cleared before December. So, nothing has been done in 2014 for the people of Kalabo in terms of canals. Therefore, we are still in the same position, meaning that we are not going to have a good harvest. You are going to be judged for failing to fulfil your promises. You may not be judged by fellow human beings, but you will be asked what you did for the people. You contributed to the lack of food …

Mr Chisala: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

A point of order is raised.

Mr Chisala: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Member of Parliament for Kalabo Central in order to debate canals under this Vote when canals fall under the Ministry of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication? 

Mr Chairperson, I need your serious ruling.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The serious ruling is that the hon. Member should take that point of order into account as he continues with his debate.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for that guidance.

Mr Munkombwe: Debate in line with the Vote now.


Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, my second point is that we want …

Mr Munkombwe: What is the point?

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Allow the hon. Member to debate, please.

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, we want hydro power in Kalabo. You see, the Government is unfair. It plans for street lights in cities and towns and leaves out the rural areas. Fifty years after Independence, most parts of rural Zambia still live in darkness. Meanwhile, you keep changing street lights from one type to the other without paying attention to the rural areas. The situation is the same on the stretch to Lukona. Therefore, there is a need to allocate more resources to rural electrification. 

Sir, the hon. Minister of Mines, Energy and Water Development said, on the Floor of this House, that the Zambia Electricity Supply Corporation (ZESCO) had supplied Kalabo with sufficient polls to connect electricity, but that has not materialised. To date, the people of Kalabo are complaining. Every day, I receive phone calls relating to electricity connections. Where are the polls which were purported to have been supplied to Kalabo? ZESCO should make an effort to supply the polls. People paid for the connection of power over a year ago, but ZESCO has not connected power to date. I am, therefore, humbly requesting the Government to look into this matter. 

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister said that there has been a reduction in load shedding. I think that this statement is a surprise to the people of Kalabo because there is load shedding almost twice a week. To us, there has been no change in load shedding whether there is an increase in electricity production or not. Load shedding is still ongoing in Kalabo. If there is a mechanism the Government is using to reduce load shedding, let it be changed so that we also see the reduction in load shedding. This is the only way we shall believe that there is an increase in power output. 

The hon. Minister also said that in the past, there was no need to put up a bus station along the way to Kalabo, but now that the construction of the road to Kalabo is almost complete, the Government is seeing the need for putting up a bus station. 

The same can be said about the Ministry of Mines, Energy and Water Development. There is a need to put up a filling station. We have to travel to Mongu to buy fuel in drums, Jerry cans and plastic containers. We shall need a filling station as the road gets nearer to completion. The completion of this road will result in increased traffic. I know that there is no road linking Zambia to Angola. However, there is a need for a filling station in the near future. 

These plans that you have come up with should be implemented in the next twenty-four months. Plans should not just end on paper, but should be implemented for the benefit of the people. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Yaluma: Mr Chairperson, first and foremost, I would like to thank all the hon. Members of this House who spoke on this Vote. Where I come from, we say that there is no way one will get to where he/she is going before making an initial step. I, therefore, appreciate the former Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) Government for initiating some of the projects, which are still on their wish list. However, they gave us guidance when we revisited and revaluated the need to carry on with them. 

In my language we say, Uwakwensha ubushika, bamutasha ilyo bwacha.

The Deputy Chairperson: Meaning what? 

Mr Yaluma: Mr Chairperson, the MMD made …

The Deputy Chairperson: What is the meaning of what you have just said? 

Mr Yaluma: I am now trying to translate, Sir. 

… the initial step. Then, we came in the night and completed all the projects. We have completed the Kariba North Bank and are yet to complete the Itezhi-tezhi Hydro Power Station. 

Mr Mulenga: That is the meaning.

Mr Yaluma: However, we appreciate the initial step taken by the MMD Government. Hats off to them. 

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Yaluma: Mr Chairperson, the 75 per cent increment in the 2015 Budget for the Ministry of Mines, Energy and Water Development is a move in the right direction because, without any additional monies to the ministry, we could not have undertaken the additional projects over the past one year. 

Secondly, the resources are very little and there are many competing needs among the ministries. Therefore, we appreciate the 75 per cent increase. I would like to assure Hon. Nkombo that we sahll use this money to the best of our abilities so that there is no wasteful expenditure. 

Mr Chairperson, Zambia is well-endowed with minerals. I concur with the hon.  Member that Zambians have not benefited sufficiently from the mining proceeds. There are Zambians who are still struggling to realise a single ngwee. This Government has, however, taken note of this, hence the revision of the Mining Policy of 1995. The new policy, which was launched in September last year, will ensure that, as investors realise their well-needed profits, our people also benefit from these proceeds. 

We are doing everything possible to ensure that your uncles, fathers and children do not leave the mines with a bicycle as a token of appreciation for their work. We want Zambians to participate in mining activities. Therefore, we are very cautious about what is happening now, hence the revision of the tax regime. We want to ensure that we benefit from the mines and, at the same time, let the investors realise what is due to them.  

Mr Chairperson, fuel is a catalyst for most of our operations in the transport, mining and agriculture sectors. We realise that we need to have the right pump price for either petrol and diesel which are utilised in the mines. You must, however, remember that when procuring this commodity, the price is fixed. By the time the commodity gets here, there are changes in the United States dollar-kwacha rates. We even have to top up to ensure that we have the commodity in the country. 

We are doing everything possible to reduce the pump price. At the moment, we are working towards reducing the pump price for fuel in the next two to three weeks. You should be able to follow the debate in the papers. I can assure this House that we are going to do this. 

Mr Chairperson, with regard to making the source of the Zambezi a heritage site, I think that I will push this matter to my colleagues, the hon. Minister of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs or the hon. Minister of Tourism and Art to look at. 

Sir, some hon. Members talked about power generation. We have liberalised power generation and have independent power producers at the moment who are participating in the industry. Therefore, it is not something that we are trying to reserve for the monopoly of the Government. We have independent power producers like TATA who are working in partnership with the Zambia Electricity Supply Corporation (ZESCO) on the Itezhi-tezhi Hydro Power Station which was referred to earlier. 

Mr Chairperson, the Kafue Gorge Lower Hydroelectric Project is on target. There were some delays, but we are on target. We are looking to complete the project around 2021. We have carried out the environmental assessment for the Batoka Gorge Hydro Power Station and have appointed the transaction adviser. The feasibility studies are also ongoing and the targeted amount for all these studies is K6 million. The completion of Batoka Gorge Hydro Power Station is also on target.  

Mr Speaker, the construction of the Itezhi-tezhi Road is on track. Basil Read Construction Company is on site and has done quite extensive road works. I think that the road will be completed by mid next year. 

Mr Chairperson, with regard to dam repairs at Mugoto, I would like to appeal to the hon. Member to make this information available to us so that it helps us to prioritise the needs in dam rehabilitation. When we see how it fairs with other requirements, we can go ahead and work on it. However, we have taken note of this. My team is here and it will look into that. 

Hon. Dr Kaingu, there are minerals in the Western Province. We are still mapping the area, but I can attest to the fact that there are alluvial diamonds there. We are, therefore, conducting surveys and explorations just to see what is there. We think that there are gas and oil deposits too. 

We issued licences to some people who have defaulted. So, we are trying to issue licences to other people who can explore for gas and oil. There could be minerals. Alluvial diamonds have been seen in some places along the Zambezi River.

Mr Chairperson, with regard to the issue of a lack of water in Mwandi, I have just talked to the people responsible for water in my ministry and we have committed to going to Mwandi to carry out some studies to see how we can block off the layers by sinking deeper to get fresh water for consumption. Before the end of the year, we shall send people to Mwandi to carry out that research for Hon. Dr Kaingu.

Sir, in relation to what Hon. Dr Musokotwane said, we must ensure that we provide an enabling environment for the investors to invest in our mines. It is something that we are trying to push for. We have been travelling around the world to try to get investors for the mines. I can assure the House that we shall come up with better policies that will provide an enabling environment for investors to come into our country. I realise that most of our foreign exchange earnings are from the mines, and we would not do anything to damage that. The contribution of mining to the Gross Domestic Product (GDP) has improved in the last three years. We must provide good and predictable policies which will encourage the investors to come into our country. 

Mr Chairperson, in regard to the issue of power lines, I said that we are going to connect the North-Western Province to the national electricity grid and extend it to Lukulu. This project is at an advanced stage. The project is at an advanced stage. We want to ensure that we provide Hon. Miyutu with power in his area. However, Kalabo is already connected to the national electricity grid. 

Sir, in relation to canals, dredgers were bought for the Western Province and dredging has started in many of the canals. Clearing weeds along the canals is ongoing and more dredgers are being purchased by my colleague in the Ministry of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication. 

Mr Chairperson, in relation to rural electrification, we are trying to electrify as much of Zambia as we can. We are also trying to electrify places in a different manner from the way schools and clinics are being electrified. We shall connect each and every house, be it mud, pole or solid. Before the end of 2015, Sikongo in Kalabo will be electrified.

Sir, finally, I would like to thank all the hon. Members who have contributed to the debate on this Vote. I am of the view that we shall speed up the implementation of the on-going projects. I thank Hon. Dr Musokotwane, Hon. Nkombo, Hon. Miyutu and those who internalised their comments.

I thank you, Sir. 

Vote 14/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 14/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 14/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 14/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 14/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 14/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 14/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Mr Kalaba interjected.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Do you want your budget to be approved or not? You are disturbing me. I can keep quiet and let you exhaust your loud consultation. 

Vote 14/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

VOTE 05 – (Electoral Commission – K241,483,352).

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, I wish to thank you for giving me the opportunity to present the 2015 Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure for the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ).

Sir, the ECZ was established as an autonomous body under Article 76 of the Constitution of the Republic of Zambia to conduct elections to the Office of the President and to the National Assembly. The commission is also mandated to review the constituency boundaries into which Zambia is divided for the purpose of elections to the National Assembly. It is also further mandated to supervise the registration of voters and review the Voters’ Register. 

Mr Chairperson, in addition to the constitutional functions outlined above, the commission also has statutory functions which include the supervision of local government elections, the conduct of voter education and conflict management and the performance of any other statutory function that the National Assembly may call upon it. 

Sir, the Electoral Commission Act No. 24 of 1996 provides for the composition and operation of the commission. The Electoral Act No. 12 of 2006 empowers the ECZ to enforce the Electoral Act which makes regulations providing for the registration of voters, the conduct of Presidential and Parliamentary elections, prosecution of election offences and stipulation of penalties for some offences. The commission administration is also mandated, under the Referendum Act, to conduct referendums under the terms stipulated in the Act.

Mr Chairperson, the mission statement for the ECZ is:

“to be an autonomous electoral management body promoting democratic governance through delivery of a credible electoral process”.

Mr Chairperson, the commission’s mission statement justifies the fundamental purpose for its existence and provides for a vision to strive forward. It also gives a framework within which the commission’s policy will be made. This also shows how the programmes and activities will be carried out to enrich and strengthen the electoral process, thereby contributing to the democratic governance of the country. It also gives the staff of the commission a clear sense of what their organisation is all about. This increases their commitment to achieving the commission’s objectives. Furthermore, it provides a clear sense of direction, purpose and responsibility for the commission in the eyes of the many stakeholders, both local and international. 

Overview of 2014 Operations

Mr Chairperson, 2014 saw the commission conduct a number of by-elections. The commission has also continued being part of the election petitions that have taken place, some of which are still before the courts of law. In this vein, during the year, the ECZ conducted seven parliamentary by-elections and thirty-two local Government elections.

Mr Chairperson, the commission also undertook the delimitation exercise of polling districts meant to take into account any new developments affecting voters such as infrastructure development, migration and general changes in population patterns, among other factors. This exercise results in the creation of new polling stations, changing of old polling stations that may no longer be suitable as well as the redrawing of ward boundaries.

Sir, the budget estimates before the House will enable the ECZ to undertake nine programmes in 2015. 2015 is an important year for the commission because it is just before the 2016 Tripartite Elections. The background work of delimitation of polling districts and ward boundaries has been undertaken this year in order to position the voters in their correct election confines. This has set the tone for the registration of voters in 2015. The commission has, therefore, provided for the registration of voters and made provisions for the acquisition of the major non-security materials in preparation for the Tripartite Elections. A lot of preparatory work will be undertaken this year. These programmes are in conformity with the commission’s mission and will be undertaken using the powers provided for under the existing Laws of Zambia. 

Mr Speaker, I now seek the support of the House in approving the commission’s budget estimates amounting to K241,483,352.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, …


Mr Mutelo: Now, listen because you said, “What is he going to say?”

The Deputy Chairperson: Can you say what you want to say. They are all listening attentively.


Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, from the outset, this being my first time to debate after the funeral of the President Sata, allow me also to convey my heartfelt condolences to the former First Lady, the entire family of the late President Sata and the country at large. 

Mr Chairperson, the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) is in charge of elections and other duties such as the delimitation of constituencies, ward boundaries, polling districts and registration of voters. The other duty of the ECZ is to disseminate information to the voters. I think the job of the ECZ is not fully done, especially in rural areas. I am saying so because I come from the rural area and I see what happens there. In supporting this Vote, I would like to say that although sensitisation is done in urban places, the people in the rural places are the ones who need it more. About 90 per cent of the ECZ’s work is concentrated in the urban and peri-urban areas. How much sensitisation is done in rural areas? We are just about to have a Presidential By-Election. How are you going to sensitise the people who are in Mitete, Liuwa, Zambezi-West and Luena? What will happen is that a lot of money will be spent on sensitising the people in urban areas that are accessible. 

Sir, Zambia’s democracy is growing so fast that, today, you can have a widow, orphan, brother in-law, nephew, …


The Deputy Chairperson: Order! 

That is their constitutional right. Let us debate the Vote.

Mr Mutelo: … all contesting for Presidency. Hence, people will need to be sensitised. If we do not sensitise the electorate, you will have voter apathy because people will not see the need to cast their votes.

Mr Sianga: Bulela, bulela!

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, people will think that it is just a by-the-way thing when it is a fundamental right of each citizen to participate in any kind of election. Having seen the budget for 2015, I would like to see a lot of work done in rural constituencies. When you prepare campaign materials such as fliers, try to make some in the local languages so that the people in rural areas can also understand. For example, we can sensitise the people in Kaoma in Nkoya so that they know their rights. In most of the areas, people get this information through community radios, but what about the people who are in places where there is no radio signal? Let us think about the people who are outside urban areas?

Mr Chairperson, I thank the ECZ for trying to reach out to the people and urge them to continue disseminating information on human rights so that people can be well informed about their rights.

Mr Chairperson, however, I also want to state that it is unfortunate that …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutelo: … non-governmental organisations (NGOs) and the ECZ only concentrate on sensitising people in the urban areas and we do not see much of these activities in rural areas, especially during the rainy season when the roads are impassable because of the floods.

Mr Hamudulu: Hammer, hammer!

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, with these very few words, I totally support this Vote.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ntundu (Gwembe): Sir, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to contribute to debate on the Vote for the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ).

Mr Chairperson, let me begin by registering my sincere sympathy and condolences to the family of the late President, Mr Michael Chilufya Sata.

Sir, Mr Sata was a President for all Zambians. I recall that whenever he came to officially open Parliament, he always mentioned my name.


Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ntundu: We shall all miss him. I also want to advise my colleagues from the Patriotic Front (PF) who, on many occasions, behaved as though Mr Sata was the President for the PF alone, that Mr Sata was a President for all Zambians. I was happy to see all political leaders unite on his burial day. I also want to thank the President of the United Party for National Development (UPND), Mr Hakainde Hichilema, who was very sad because his colleague, Mr Sata had died, for urging all hon. Members of Parliament from his party to be supportive towards the Sata family. He also stated that we would all miss Mr Sata. Those were the words of Mr Hakainde Hichilema. 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ntundu: This shows that he was really saddened by the death of Mr Sata.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ntundu: Sir, let me now talk about the Vote for the ECZ. I want to put it on record that the commission is doing a commendable job. I recall that in 2008, when there was a by-election for a councillor, I happened to be one of the election observers. If what I saw in Gwembe is the same as what happens at all the polling stations across the country during voting, then I do not think there can be room for any rigging. I also want to state that the ECZ should not only be seen to be active when there is a by-election. When there is no by-election, the commission seems to be dormant and I do not understand why. The ECZ should always be on the ground sensitising people, for instance, on human rights, as the hon. Member of Parliament for Mitete suggested.

The Deputy Chairperson: Is there a constituency called Mitete?

Mr Mutelo: Lukulu.

Mr Ntundu: For Lukulu West, Sir.

Mr Chairperson, at one time, there was a by-election in Siapande during the rainy season and the ECZ had not anticipated that the rivers would be flooded. The nominations for that by-election went up to 2000 hours because of the unpreparedness of the ECZ. There was a disaster because some people drowned on their way to their homes. May their souls rest in peace. So, I believe that this time around, the ECZ will be prepared, taking into account that the Presidential By-election will be held during the rainy season. They should be prepared to go to Helga Polling Station by boat because they cannot get there by road. However, I wonder if the ECZ has any boats. I usually go there by speed boat. Therefore, I urge the ECZ to be very proactive in areas such as Gwembe where it is most likely that before or on the polling day, the rivers might be flooded and some polling stations may not be accessible.

Sir, I can hear my colleague, the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs, whispering that he missed my voice and that he is wondering why I have decided to debate on the Vote for the ECZ. He is a good friend of mine. During the time I was unwell and was admitted to the University Teaching Hospital (UTH), he is one of the people who visited me, and I thank him for that. The relationship between the PF and UPND should continue …

Mr Ntundu: … because we are one.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ntundu: Mr Chairperson, I recall that when Hon. Mukanga was on the Opposition side, he stated that if his party was given an opportunity to be in Government, a lot of things would change. However, the PF is now in Government and a lot of advice has been given from this side of the House, especially on the Constitution. They know that everyone wants a new Constitution, but I do not know why they are dragging their feet.

The Deputy Chairperson: We are debating the Vote for the ECZ.

Mr Ntundu: Yes, Sir. The new Constitution will also touch on the new electoral process. So, with these very few words, I would like to support the Vote for the ECZ.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, I really appreciate the debate by the two hon. Members. The Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) has already made a proposal of about K1,737,620 for voter education in 2015. That means that the commission is very serious about carrying out voter education. We are going to have, at least, two facilitators in each ward throughout the country. These facilitators will use various modes of transport. So, everything has been put in place, and there will be more sensitisation this time around. There is also a provision of K132,500,000 for the continuous voter registration exercise. This time around, we want to make a difference so that we implement what we talk about. This year, in terms of activity, you will see a very big difference. I am also happy that you have supported the Vote.

I thank you, Sir.

VOTE 05/01 – (Electoral Commission – Headquarters – K241,483,352).

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, much as we are saying sensitisation is important, I am wondering why allocations to activities under Programme 4002 have all been increased. Among the activities whose allocation has been increased is the Labour Day Celebrations, which we would have loved to go to sensitisation. Why is there a huge increment just on shows and other things?

 The Deputy Minister in the Office of the Vice-President (Mr Mwango): Mr Chairperson, the activities that the hon. Member is talking about include the International Women’s Day, Labour Day, World AIDS Day, Special Events and Secretaries’ Day. When you talk about sensitisation, there is an allocation specifically for that activity. So, that is a 168 per cent increase from last year’s allocation.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Pande: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 4056, Activity 001 – By Elections – K4,000,000. I think this is inadequate going by what has been happening. Is it that the Government does not anticipate any by-elections in the future because such an allocation is putting pressure on the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ)? This allocation is just for one by-election. So, why did we not have an average figure instead of allocating K4 million?

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, the allocation is adequate. This was arrived at after a lot of analysis.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4002, …

The Deputy Chairperson: On what page?

Mr Mutelo: Page 30.


The Deputy Chairperson: We can follow. Proceed, hon. Member.

Mr Mutelo: Sir, they like my voice. That is why they enjoy listening to it.


The Deputy Chairperson: I like it too. Please, continue.

Mr Mutelo: … Activity 020 – Shows and Exhibitions – K190,650, Activity 051 – Attendance at Provincial Agriculture Shows – K116,154. Why do you have different allocations for activities that seem the same?

Mr Mwango: Mr Chairperson, there are two shows in the Vote. One is the provincial show and the other one is the main show. So, I do not know what the hon. Member is asking about. These are two different activities.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4056. I do not see the allocation for the Presidential Election that we are going to have in January, 2015. Could the hon. Minister explain why there is no allocation for the up-coming election.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, the allocations were worked out based on planned activities. However, what has necessitated the election to be held in January is an unforeseen situation. So, we will go back to the Ministry of Finance and ask for funding.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 4056, Activity 014 – International and Regional Meetings (ECF) – K163,970, Activity 017 – International and Regional Conferences – K215,786. Why do you have such allocations for similar activities?

Mr Mwango: Mr Chairperson, there are two different activities. However, Programme 4056, Activity 014 – International and Regional Conference (ECF) – K163,970 is associated with the commission’s attendance of election-related international meetings to share experiences and learn new practices. The cost has been reclassified from Programme 4002, Activity 009 – International Conferences – Nil. The increase in the provision is meant to adequately provide for the commission’s participation in capacity building activities in preparation for the 2016 Tripartite Elections. This will improve the current election process. Since the costs are in foreign currency, the cost in kwacha has increased partly on account of anticipated exchange rates.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 05/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.



[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)




The Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication, Chief Whip, and Acting Leader of Government Business in the House (Mr Mukanga): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.


The House adjourned at 1932 hours until 0900 hours on Friday, 21st November, 2014.