DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATESFOR THE FIRST SESSION OF THE NINTH ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 31st January, 2001

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

ANNOUNCEMENT BY MR SPEAKER

COMMENTS BY SOME MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT ON THE ABSENCE OF THE FIRST LADY AT THE OFFICIAL OPENING OF THE FIFTH SESSION OF THE EIGHTH NATIONAL ASSEMBLY BY THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF ZAMBIA, DR FREDERICK JACOB TITUS CHILUBA, ON FRIDAY, 19TH JANUARY, 2001

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, I want to register, from the outset, my regret at the unfortunate comments which were made by some hon. Members of Parliament regarding the absence of the First Lady at the Official Opening of the Fifth Session of the Eighth National Assembly by the President of the Republic of Zambia, Dr Frederick Jacob Titus Chiluba, on Friday, 19th January, 2001.

The House may wish to be reminded that following the speech for the Official Opening of Parliament by the President, a motion was moved by the hon. Member for Kantanshi Parliamentary Constituency, Hon. Stephen Chilombo, MP, and seconded by the hon. Member for Kasempa Parliamentary Constituency, Hon. John Muasa, MP, for the Thanks of this National Assembly to be recorded for the exposition of public policy contained in the President’s Address.

Let me take this opportunity to inform the House that in virtually all the Parliaments, both in the Commonwealth and outside, the Constitution provides for an address by the Head of the State to the House in which the latter is informed of its summons.

In this regard, M. N. Kaul and S. L. Shakder, in their book entitled, Practice and Procedure of Parliament, Fourth Edition, at page 180, have observed, and I quote:

    ‘Being a statement of policy of the Government ... the address ... contains a review of the activities and achievements of the Government during the previous year and its policy with regard to important internal and current international problems. It also contains a brief account of the programmes of Government business for the Session.’

Hon. Members should also know that the ensuing debate on the address by the Head of State is not done in a laissez faire  manner but follows definite rules based on the practice and procedure of the House.

The rule is strictly enforced that Members must direct their speeches to the motion under discussion, and not to wander from it. Erskine May, in his book entitled: Parliamentary Practice , twenty-first edition, at page 379, stated that, and I quote:

    ‘Reflections must not be cast in debate upon the conduct of the sovereign, the heir to the throne, and other Members of the Royal family, the Lord Chancellor, the Governor-General ... the Speaker ... including Heads of State or Government ... or their representatives.’ 

According to A. R. Browning, Editor of the book House of Representatives Practice, Australia, at page 488, the reasons for not permitting Members to cast disrespectful allusions against other people are based on the realisation that such references would, and I quote:

    ‘Give offence outside Parliament, and it is unreasonable that a Member of the Legislature should be permitted openly to use such language in Parliament.’

In fact, Erskine May, in his book already referred to, at page 376, has shown that, and I quote:

    ‘Members have not only been called to order for such offences, but have been reprimanded, committed to the custody of the Serjeant or even sent to the tower.’ 

In view of the foregoing, it is unfortunate that some hon. Members deviated from a clearly stated motion while debating the President’s address on 23rd January, 2001, and instead started talking about the absence of the First Lady from the House.

The House may also wish to know that when making preparations for the Official Opening of Parliament, we inadvertently printed the programme which reflected the attendance of the First Lady. However, when it came to our attention that she had not received our letter of invitation, we had to withdraw the original programme and printed a new one, which did not show that the First Lady would attend the Official Opening of Parliament.

Copies of the reprinted programme were distributed to hon. Members when they came to the Chamber on the day of opening the new Session. The fact that some hon. Members were in possession of the old programme which we had withdrawn is no excuse whatsoever for making comments on the Head of State and the First Lady. As pointed out earlier, this is never done in well-organised and disciplined Parliaments.

In this respect, the question of the First Lady snubbing Parliament as reflected in a newspaper article cannot be sustained as she did not receive our invitation. Hon. Members may further wish to know that in 1987, the then First Lady did not attend the Official Opening of Parliament and there was no debate or comments made by the hon. Members about her absence in the House. 

In this respect, the question of the First Lady snubbing Parliament as reflected in a newspaper article cannot be sustained as she did not receive our invitation. Hon. Members may further wish to know that in 1987, the then First Lady did not attend the Official Opening of Parliament and there was no debate or comments made by the hon. Members about her absence in the House. 

In view of the foregoing, I wish, on behalf of the House, and, indeed, on my own behalf, to convey very sincere apologies to the President and the First Lady over the unfortunate remarks made in the House on Tuesday, 23rd January, 2001, by some hon. Members who were keen on discussing trivial matters about the First Family, but which were not related to the motion before the House.

Thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

MOTION

BUDGET 2001

(Debate resumed)

Mr Tetamashimba (Solwezi West): Mr Speaker, thank you very much for allowing me to debate on the motion. 

Mr Speaker, I know it is not, maybe, parliamentary, but since I am still learning, I need your guidance. Just a correction, maybe, that Hon. Muasa is a Member of Parliament for Kasempa and not Kabompo West.

Mr Speaker, for the past ten years, Zambia has enjoyed peace and tranquillity in the country.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: Most of the neighbouring countries have found their way through into this country because of the peace. Obviously, these problems in these countries arise as a result of what I may call tribal sentiments or divisions within their own countries. 

Recently, of course, the Head of State was not happy with tribal sentiments. And rightly so, he mentioned this when he was in Luapula and Eastern provinces where when our colleagues come from Luapula into Lusaka, they all claim to be Bemba but what was happening in Luapula seemed as if there were many other tribes in the province. But I must congratulate the President on saying that tribalism is not accepted in the country.

While saying that, Mr Speaker, I must say that I was very disappointed when I was reading through the Zambia Daily Mail of Monday, 29th January, 2001, under an advertisement. You remember very well, ...

Mr Speaker: Order! The Chair will not tire to guide hon. Members but the hon. Members must also make an effort to learn or study the procedures of this House. 

I quite often refer to certain authorities on the procedures of Commonwealth and other Parliaments in this House. Three times, I cited authorities in my announcement. The hon. Members may wish to know that we have among the best parliamentary libraries in the world. They may wish to know this. They may further wish to know that I take keen interest in finding out how many of us actually go there to study and borrow books. Very few. This is precisely why, without judging the majority of you but some of you, remain unfamiliar with how we should conduct our own business here. Simply going through the Standing Orders - each one of us has got a copy here - in addition it is reproduced in a document as a Members' Hand Book. You will find in there that we are not allowed to read newspapers or casual literature unrelated to what we should do in this House. 

The hon. Member for Solwezi West in not entitled or even permitted to make reference to a newspaper as he is contributing to a motion in this House. Why? Because you are more authoritative on matters of state than the newspaper article. The newspaper article does not make news. You make the news which it reports and that is crucial. Occasionally, however, hon. Members have been allowed to quote from a newspaper article if they are raising a point of order germane to the business of the House. That has been allowed. I reiterate, I will not tire to guide but let the hon. Members also meet me half way.

Will the hon. Member continue, please.

Mr Tetamashimba: Thank you very much, Mr Speaker, for the guidance and I will not refer to the paper in question.

Mr Speaker, I was trying to thank the President for the advice he is giving to this nation. I was trying to say that normally when these things come up, I get disturbed. Recently, we had other overtones in Kafue. Obviously, with these overtones, the Budget which seems to be pleasing many people this year cannot take off. Of course, in the paper that I am not going to quote, again, overtones are coming out where it is being stated that for you to get a job, you must specifically speak a certain language. To me, that is not supposed to be and I hope the hon. Minister of Energy and Water Development, since this is a Zesco advertisement, will be able to reply why he should allow about 100 people to be employed only if they can speak one language.

Mr Speaker, coming to the Public Service Pensions Fund ...

Mr T. J. C. Phiri: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr T. J. C. Phiri: Mr Speaker, I rise on a very serious point of order. Is the hon. Member speaking on the Floor now in order to ignore what you have just said? We are debating the Budget Address and nothing more. I need your ruling, Sir.

Mr Speaker: The hon. Member for Solwezi West should benefit accordingly, please.

Will he continue, please.

Mr Tetamashimba: Mr Speaker, you know when people are thinking they will not stand later this year, they are very scared.

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Tetamashimba: Oh, yes, he is very scared because he thinks they will remember his UNIP days.

Mr Speaker, on the Public Service Pensions Fund, we are happy that the hon. Minister has looked at our colleagues. We have seen situations where some women have ended up being pregnant whilst waiting to be paid their money and we congratulate him on allocating money for the sake of our colleagues who have had these problems. But we would want, if possible, the hon. Minister to try to enforce a situation whereby when a person is retiring, on the date of retirement, at least, has 50 per cent of the package so that he is relieved of the problems that he is incurring. What is happening now is that people are retired and they continue staying in the same houses, even in Government houses and so on, without being paid any money.

Mr Speaker, of course, I know that the Organisation of African Unity (OAU) - the K64 billion we are going to give to the Government to host the OAU, obviously we are not saying it is for an individual, but it is for the nation. And when the new President comes this November, he will take over as Chairman until one year elapses, but really ...

Interruptions.

Mr Tetamashimba: Oh yes, that is what it means. 

Sir, if you ask, for example, hon. Members of Parliament, in terms of priorities, the question ...

Mr Mwaanga: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwaanga: Mr Speaker, I rise on a serious point of order as it relates to the conduct of this House and I would like to refer to an article which appeared in the Monitor Newspaper issue No 142 of 19th to 25th January, 2001 under the headline ‘KABILA’S DEATH WARNING TO THIRD TERM ADVOCATES, MP, CHILUBA PLAYING WITH FIRE’

Mr Speaker, you guided this House on the 23rd January, 2001, when new Members of Parliament were taking oath as there was some noise going on in the House and this is what you said:

    ‘Order! I would like to call on the House to remember that this is a solemn occasion, may we please limit the excitement that is going on here.’ 

This was during the time when we were swearing in six new Members of Parliament to the House.

Mr Speaker, the article was written by a Mr Chali Nondo and it was attributed to the hon. Member of Parliament for Mumbwa Central, and it reads in part:

    ‘Mumbwa Member of Parliament, Stanford Hlazo, has said that the assassination of President Lawrence Kabila of the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) ...

Mr Sibetta: It is a police case.

Mr Speaker: Order! I must ascertain some interjections on the Floor, which I should not really pay attention to, whether it is true that this matter is in court ...

Interruptions.

Mr Speaker: Order!. My information which is now accurate is that the case is not in court, and that the police are not called.

May the hon. Chief Whip, please, continue.

Mr Mwaanga: I was quoting what the newspaper article said on page 1  on the front page about the Congo and linking this up to what the hon. Member of Parliament for Mumbwa has said. The paper further continues to say:

    Hlazo of the United Party for National Development (UPND) said Third Term skimmers will be blamed if the nation was plunged into chaos.’

Mr Speaker, every Member of Parliament either takes an oath of allegiance or an affirmation of allegiance and the solemn of allegiance, Members of Parliament faithfully bear true allegiance to the President of the Republic of Zambia. Is the hon. Member of Parliament for Mumbwa Central Constituency in order to be able to relate events which happened in the Congo which hinge on assassination with events in Zambia which imply assassination of the President of the Republic of Zambia for whom he has taken an oath to defend and preserve the Constitution of Zambia. Mr Speaker, Sir, I need your serious ruling and I will lay this paper on the Table.

Mr Mwaanga laid the paper on the Table.

Mr Speaker: I have listened carefully to the point of order which has been raised by the hon. Chief Whip which is as a result of a newspaper article and that newspaper has been laid on the Table of the House. I will have to study the contents of that newspaper article in detail and I, therefore, reserve my ruling to a later date.

May the hon. Member for Solwezi West, please, continue.

Mr Tetamashimba: Mr Speaker, I was trying to talk of priorities. If the Zambian people were asked, in terms of the K64 billion, that we are going to utilise during the OAU, which was better for this money to go to the Nitrogen Chemicals of Zambia or to the OAU? Obviously, the answer would have been Nitrogen Chemicals of Zambia for fertilisers. Even hon. Members of Parliament if they were asked which was better for each one of them to get K200 million for each constituency out of this money or for it to be spent on the OAU Summit, I am sure, everybody here would have said that it should go to the constituencies ...

Mr Sata: On a point of order, Sir!

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Sata: Mr Speaker, Zambia is a member of several international organisations. She has been hosted by other countries and has an obligation to host other organisations. Is the hon. Member in order to mislead this House, abdicating the responsibility that Zambia is a full pledged member of the OAU. These meetings rotate and this time it is the turn for Zambia to host that meeting. Is he in order to debate in that way and tarnish the image of Zambia internationally?

Mr Speaker: The hon. Minister Without Portfolio is raising a point of order on the debate by the hon. Member for Solwezi West whether he is in order to imply that Zambia should not undertake some aspects of her international or regional responsibilities. This is an innocent matter of policy which is debatable and if the Government detect, in the hon. Member’s speech, that he is debating the kind of issue which they are able to convincingly debate, the hon. Members of Government in the House should be in a position to indicate their willingness and ability to debate and take part in the debate during which they may state their side of the story.

So, the hon. Member for Solwezi West, so far, as I heard him debate, is in order.

May he, continue.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: Mr Speaker, that is why we have always said you have plenty of years to be in that Chair. 

Mr Speaker, I was asking whether if the people, especially the council workers, and even the advocates, were asked what they would want between the K64 billion going to the OAU or to pay arrears of salary. I am sure the people would have said arrears of salary and even to free medical services where our women are now giving birth in the corridors of clinics. So, you can see that, although we are going to hold the OAU, we believe that priority should not have been the OAU, especially that in Zambia we have been crying to qualify under HIPC. We have been saying, ‘We are the poorest, please, can the donor community help us’. Even after we have been helped, we can now say we have enough money to even host such a conference.

Mr Speaker, I want to make comment, again, on the empowerment by the hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development. I agree with him that to empower people is to give them fertilisers and so on, including employment. When I debated on the President’s Speech, I had given an example of Malaysia. I said in Malaysia if they are selling a company, the first priority is given to the Malaysians. Here in Zambia, there are many loafers. If you go to PHI, you will find that Malaysians are digging when, in fact, our Zambians are roaming the streets. I do not understand what priorities our Government have. How do they claim that they want to empower their people who are not working, at the same time, just to dig a trench, you can employ somebody from Malaysia? We would want to hear, really, what the hon. Minister meant by that.

We also want to know how the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security could give permits to people just to come and dig trenches which Zambians can do. Maybe, they do not have work permits, we want to know. We were told, and I think we passed a law in Parliament where when an investor brings in money in the country, then he is entitled to a certain number of expatriates coming into the country. I think that is the law we passed. 

We did not pass a law that for somebody who wants to get money from here and externalise it after doing a job, the people that they are going to bring to dig trenches should be given work permits. I do not think that is what we discussed in this House. These are the priorities we talk about. This is a complaint, obviously, our colleagues who are builders, would complain bitterly about. Just like others complain when our colleagues in Government had to furnish their houses in the amount of K12 billion instead of using the local manufacturers.

Mr Speaker, coming to the salary that the hon. Minister gave in the Budget, it is well and good. According to the Government, they are saying that the lowest paid employee in the Public and Civil Service should get about K200,000, although we know that the minimum is supposed to be K350,000. I would have loved a situation, since the K200,000 has been recognised as the lowest a person should get, if the whole K200,000 was not taxed, unlike the situation now. I would like the hon. Minister to consider that since the K200,000 is being recognised as the poverty datum line, let anybody’s salary which is K200,000 and below be tax free.

Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister said that he was going to increase on the duty of vehicles from K1 million to K2 million. This is the reason why our professionals are going out of this country. They are going away because they are failing to buy vehicles. People in the Public Service and the Civil Service, surely, are not going to benefit in terms of vehicles. I would have been happier if the hon. Minister said that he was going to allow anybody who is in formal employment to bring in a vehicle duty free, at least, for five years. 

I know others would be saying you would have lost money, but if, for example, Mr Speaker, 100,000 vehicles came in duty-free, what it means is that the road tax we pay, you are going to multiply, the minimum, I think, is about K40,000, by 100,000, multiply, again, by four because there are four quarters. You also know that there was going to be a lot of consumption in terms of fuel. So, the hon. Minister would have still reaped what was going to be received by this imposition. To me, the public workers would have benefited in this Budget.

I am happy, Mr Speaker, that for the first time the hon. Minister has considered the poor people who are farming. I wished you had done this three years ago, but better late than never, as it has been said. Really, the hon. Minister has said he is going to give some money to the poor in terms of grants, maybe, co-operatives and so on. I would have loved if he went further by saying that since we know that there is no private sector who can go into Zambezi and Chama to buy maize, we would want to hear the mechanism that is going to be used, since you are going to give out this fertiliser, maybe, in grants, which is free. 

The people out there, Mr Speaker, would want a Government, and we have always said this year, a floor price will be put. Everywhere floor prices are put so that a poor person in Chavuma with his maize will be assured that if he cannot sell it at a higher price, the Government has put in place an institution where he is going to sell at the floor price. That way, peasant farmers who are failing to pay even for the fertilisers, will manage to pay. Surely, with what is in place, there is no way a peasant farmer will pay.

Surely, we also wanted to know what the Government is doing in Mkushi, Mr Speaker. If one goes there, one will find a lot of farmers stuck with maize for the last season. Those people should have been helped by the Government to sell their maize. We were also expecting that they were going to allow the farmers in Mkushi farming block to have electricity put in and also free duty on machinery and not partly as it was. 

Mr Speaker, we were also interested to hear, really, about the privatisation which is being claimed that it is fair in terms of COMESA and Free Trade Area. What are you, hon. Minister, going to do with Zambia Sugar Company Plc. You know that they lose a lot of money because of the law we put in place of Vitamin ‘A’. Our neighbouring countries do not have that legislation. Are you going to protect Zambia Sugar Company from outsiders whose sugar does not have the Vitamin ‘A’? 

If you do not bring that before this House, it means that our sugar will be more expensive and people, definitely, will lose out. Just like Chilanga Cement, Mr Speaker, if you go to buy cement in town, especially that coming from Bulawayo, Harare and other places, it is cheaper than Chilanga cement. The whole thing is that our colleagues are subsidising this extra commodity which is coming into the country and tomorrow, you are going to find that our colleagues in Zambia Sugar Company Plc and Chilanga Cement Plc. are off the hook in terms of employment. So, we are requesting, hon. Minister to look at those issues.

I have noticed, Mr Speaker, one thing that there is no activity at the institute that the President is constructing, since he is retiring this November. I passed through and have not seen any activity. Since we are giving this to our ...

Mr Speaker: Order! The hon. Member’s time has expired. {mospagebreak}

Major Kamanga (Lumezi): Mr Speaker, I thank you. Before we came to the House, I was warned by Dr Dan Pule to congratulate him because if I did not do so, I would be in trouble, on being elected Vice-Chairman of the Province.

Interruptions.

Major Kamanga: That is an election.

Dr Pule: And we are united!

Major Kamanga: I am happy to hear that they are now united in Luapula Province. I hope that you will not forget to pray as you get down there.

Laughter.

Major Kamanga: Mr Speaker, in contributing to the motion on the Floor this afternoon, I wish to request the hon. Minister that what he said on the Floor of this House will be put into practice.

Sir, in the past few years, for instance, when we talk about agriculture, funds allocated are never released. We allocated funds to the Food Reserve Agency (FRA) for a particular purpose, but fertiliser is just coming in the country now. 

In fact, Sir, the more the hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development spoke the more he reminded me of Nevers Mumba. I thought heaven was about to come in the House. It is unrealistic to give such a good Budget Speech and no moneys are released to these key ministries. The insensitivity of the hon. Minister towards agriculture is one that makes this whole country cry.

Mr Speaker, tourism is like the Ministry of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries. I do not see it doing well if we do not work on the roads in these areas. Whichever subject matter he talked about in the Budget Speech will be meaningless if he does not release funds.

Two years ago, money was allocated for roads in national parks and game management areas to the tune of K800 million. To-date, nothing has been released. Even at that time we said it was a very good Budget Speech. Is it going to be the order of the day? These good speeches must be followed by good actions. We understand that you listen, but that should not be the end.

Hon. Member: They must act!

Major Kamanga: Well, acting may be Hollywood.

Laughter.

Major Kamanga: Please, release the funds.

In as much as we enjoyed your speech, Mr Minister, that is not what we are looking for; we are looking for implementation of the programmes that our Government is talking about.

Funds were allocated to the Chipata/Muchinji Railway line to the tune of K1 billion, to-date nothing is happening. Even the four kilometre of the railway line that was put in place is, now, going to waste. Do not be surprised when you find us using those rails to make pots, axes and holes.

Laughter.

Major Kamanga: Because we have got good use for them.

Mr Ngosa: You will be arrested!

Mr Sampa: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Sampa: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member is debating very well, unfortunately, he is suggesting that the railway line be vandalised. Is he in order to encourage vandalism in this country? I need your ruling.

Laughter.

Mr Speaker: The hon. Member for Lumezi should listen to words of wisdom in this House.

Laughter.

Mr Speaker: May he continue and take that wisdom into account.

Major Kamanga: Mr Speaker, in fact, when I heard the point of order, I thought it was the Deputy Speaker raising it.

Laughter.

Major Kamanga: Mr Speaker, certainly if you leave your vehicle abandoned in the middle of nowhere, birds will start going in there ...

Mr Kapangalwendo: And rats!

Major Kamanga: No, mice.

Laughter.

Major Kamanga: Mice will start getting in there and you should not blame the nature part of it that comes to help you look after your vehicle in between Mporokoso and Kasama. Similarly, what is the point of having this four kilometres of railway lines and just leave it like that? My appeal is not to vandalise the railway line, but I am saying, when a good Budget Speech like this one is delivered, then there must be delivery of goods.

One road from Mpika going to Nabwalya was allocated about K300 million a few years ago and we said, ‘A good budget speech, now we are going to have tourists going to these areas, of course, even hunters.’ No moneys were released for that particular road, though it was indicated in the Yellow Book that the funds were allocated. To-date, no construction works have taken place on that particular road.

Mr Speaker, people would like to see these programmes taking off. Nobody out there in the streets listened to this. Nobody is listening to this. The common man on the street did not hear anything. He wants to see fertiliser delivered in august ...

Mr Nyundu: Hear, hear!

Major Kamanga: He wants to see the road going to Mfuwe from Chipata tarred. If you tell them that the Minister today delivered a very good speech, they will ask: “What speech”? They will think a speech is some kind of ...

Mr Ngosa: Paprika nshima!

Major Kamanga: Thank you very much. 

These are issues that we want you to address. We would like to see you Mr Minister, Sir, release funds to ministries, including Parliament in good time.

Mr Patel: Hammer!

Major Kamanga: We have seen how the Ministry of Finance and Economic Development allocated funds and 100 per cent is released to the ministry itself. Other ministries, I am afraid, like he is shaking his head, he knows that twenty or thirty per cent of what was allocated is given to his ministry. I know that we are operating on a cash budget, but the Ministry of Finance and Economic Development are not operating on a cash budget because they are getting everything. In fact, 100 per cent is an understatement, they are getting over 120 or 130 per cent.

Dr Mbikusita-Lewanika: Wako ni wako!

Major Kamanga: Of course! 

The old adage of our colleagues from the north says, ‘Uubomba mwibala alya mwibala,’ is a reality. It means that you basically eat from where you work. Sir, that should not be the case. In fact, I would be very happy if this year, the Ministry of Finance and Economic Development will receive only 50 per cent of what has been allocated to them and let the rest go to education, health, local government and Housing.

Mr Speaker, I expected to hear in this Budget, from the hon. Minister, that a certain percentage of workers in rural district councils were going to be paid salaries straight from the Ministry of Finance and Economic and these are places such as Lundazi, Mporokoso, Kaputa and many others. I thought that these workers would directly be paid by the Ministry of Finance and Economic Development because there is no district council in the rural areas that can generate funds. He knows that Chiengi District Council cannot raise funds.

Mr Speaker, it is, therefore, important that such measures should have been put in place to assist the district councils. The hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing knows very well and understands what I am talking about.

Mr Speaker, I hope that moneys that are meant for elections will be released as a lump sum and as soon as we approve this Budget in this House. This should be done within a few weeks so that the electoral process can start, because the power of the people who sent us here lies in the electoral process.

Mr Speaker, we have seen companies that have been privatised given some relief. The peasant farmer also requires relief. I thought that the hon. Minister should have, this year, come to this House and tell us that there was going to be Government subsidy on  agricultural inputs. I thought he would come to this House to tell us that there would be a floor price for the staple food crops such as maize and cassava.

Mr Speaker, I thought that he would give a relief to the common man in the street by announcing that the price of fuel with effect from midnight on the day he read the speech would be reduced by 20 per cent. The Government reduced the price of fuel by 10 per cent, to date, only a few companies have reduced. This is where the Zambian man and woman requires relief. Why are you failing to control the price of fuel? It is now almost three weeks from the day the hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development said he had reduced the price of the commodity, but nothing was being done.

Dr Kalumba: Me!

Major Kamanga: You are Government and do not say me.

Mr Shumina: So, who is running the Government?

Major Kamanga: It is collective responsibility. Mr Speaker, I am sorry I was being tempted to answer the hon. Minister.

Mr Speaker, these are realities that the hon. Minister who controls the Treasury should be looking at. When you are talking about relief, you are talking about improving our GDP. It has to start from there. If your transport network is very expensive, then there is no way your GDP will grow.

Mr Speaker, I would like to urge the hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development to listen to the cries of the people and go into that direction to help them get out of this limbo. Sir, I thought that in his Budget Speech, an area like Mfuwe should have been given the same relief which has been given to Livingstone. These are the two major - not my rank - tourist areas. 

Sir, a few years ago, he gave a relief when he cancelled the levies the tourists were paying when they were coming in to Livingstone. We should be fair. We know that even the Minister himself if there is a place he likes to visit and enjoy the natural wilderness is Mfuwe. And he prefers to go by road. So, Sir, he should have given relief to Mfuwe and I hope that before we finish discussing the Budget, he will come up and say he is giving relief to Mfuwe tourists so that we can promote tourism in Eastern Province.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Major Kamanga: Mr Speaker, those who listen to very few words, do not require many words said to them. 

With these few remarks, I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Order! Before other hon. Members come in, just for the record, we are recorded as we contribute. The record should show that Mfuwe is in the Northern Province and not in the Eastern Province.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mushala (Mufumbwe): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me this chance to contribute to the debate on the Budget Address presented to the House by Dr Katele Kalumba (Chiengi) and Minister of Finance and Economic Development on 26th January, 2001.

Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister presented his Budget Speech in a very powerful way and I congratulate him on the manner he delivered his speech. Immediately after the speech, as I walked out of this building, I met two groups of people. One group was saying this type of Budget had come too late, but I said it was not too late because Zambia needed to go undergo some structural reforms first before such a Budget could be presented.

Mr Speaker, the second group I met were saying, ‘You know what has happened in this country, there are so many people dying. You people in the MMD are killing us.’ But in my discussion with them or in another debate outside, I did explain to them that we should look where we have come from and that saying now that there were so many deaths was not the correct situation. In 1964, the population of Zambia was only 2 million and today in the year 2001, the population is much bigger. Some of our grand parents are still living and they were there in 1964, but now they are dying one by one. So, it is not us the MMD Government that has brought the deaths, it is just the population.

Dr Mbikusita-Lewanika: Are you MMD?

Laughter.

Mr Mushala: Those were my declarations in the small debate hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development, after delivering the speech. Hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development, I want you to follow me as I go page by page. May I start with your preamble, where you are saying, and I quote:

    ‘This Budget is based on the belief that Zambians are hardworking people and have in the last decade thrown off the shovels of unrealistic state benevolence and dependence to embrace an enterprise culture of independence, innovation and change. All they need is the opportunity and an enabling environment to allow them to lead productive and prosperous lives.’

Mr Speaker, my question is and I would like the hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development to clarify this: why do we still talk of poverty in Zambia when Zambians are very much hardworking? What is this enabling environment you are telling us that these Zambians must enjoy for the poverty to be out of this country?

Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development started very well when he started with Part I, the performance of the global economy in 2000, but when I went through it, I almost shed tears because we have a very big problem in this country. This problem is that about three years ago, from 1998, the Asian economy went through a very big crisis. When you look at the performance on the global economy, the Asian economy has managed to come out of the malaise that it went through in 1997/98. It actually made a very tremendous recovery from the 1997/98 crisis and Zambia should emulate the same. From 1997/98 we were still talking of empowering the people up to today. There must be something wrong. Why can we not emulate the Indians? Why can we not come out of this malaise that we are found in?

Mr Speaker, when we look at the global economy, one will notice that the world economy actually had growth because of the tremendous improvement in the Asian economy which actually took advantage of the external demand, especially for consumer and industrial electronics. As a result, for the increased demand of information technology, goods propelled growth in their region and that contributed to the growth in the global economy. As for Zambia, it is very unfortunate.

Sir, I thought the hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development was going to tell us why we failed. He tried to explain, but that was not clear. What I am trying to say is that we should emulate other countries or  continents like Asia.

Mr Speaker, as regards the performance of the domestic economy in the year 2000, page 3, paragraph 17 of the Budget Speech, the hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development says, and I quote:

    ‘The inflation out-turn would have been done have been worse had it not been for the favourable agricultural produce which dampened food prices.’

Now, I am wondering what is going to reduce our inflation in 2001. It appears the hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development did not look at that because as we are discussing and debating his speech today, most farmers have not received their fertiliser. That is the agriculture we are saying tried to overturn the inflation in the year 2000. Therefore, going by his speech, the inflation target we have made will not be achieved because we have already blundered, to start with, Mr Speaker. That is one thing may be before preparing the speech, they should have looked at because it was agriculture which managed to try and reduce the inflation according to his speech. What will happen in the year 2001?. We have failed to deliver the fertilisers. It is quite a disaster,.

Mr Speaker, in agriculture, one biggest problem that we have is indecision. I will give an example of Mufumbwe Constituency. From the 1999/2000 farming season, Mufumbwe had more than 1,500 bags of fertiliser that were lying in the shades, but they could not be given to farmers despite the farmers having had paid their deposits of K10,000 or K20,000. The decision came from the powers above that the fertiliser should not be given to farmers. They are now being given the fertiliser which have been lying in Mufumbwe for the past two years.

Mr Shumina: It has expired.

Mr Mushala: Mr Speaker, such type of management is what is killing us. That is why we cannot improve our living standards, and countries like Asia are defeating us. How do we allow fertiliser to stay for two years without giving it to the farmers and start giving them in February?

Dr Sondashi: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mushala: Now you are spoiling my debate.

Dr Sondashi: I am helping you my nephew.

Mr Speaker, I rise on a very serious point of order. What can this House do on an issue like this one of fertiliser where we always talk about it being delivered late every year? Even if we talk, it is delivered late. Do you think this can go on like this? I am sure you must be wondering why we should be talking about the same thing all over again when there are three Ministers in the Ministry of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries. The more we talk, the more it is delivered late. I am baffled. People cannot grow food and the country cannot move because of late delivery of fertiliser all the time. Is this in order for the nation to be held at ransom?

Laughter.

Mr Speaker: The point of order being raised by the hon. Member of Parliament for Solwezi Central is a typical example where the experienced debaters who may have spoken before, but forgot a point ...

Laughter. {mospagebreak}

Mr Speaker: ... and are coming back through a point of order ...

Laughter.

Mr Speaker: ... and debate. Anyway, the point of order does seem to incite the hon. Member of Parliament for Mufumbwe Constituency to debate the issue of agriculture input and he needs from what I could tell, no prodding. 

May he continue, please.

Mr Mushala: Mr Speaker, I thank you my uncle, Dr Sondashi, for giving me some little time to take some water.

Mr Speaker, I was trying to get to the hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development about the indecision in agriculture which is so poor. It is a clear picture of poor management in our country. This year, 2001, we will actually reduce the growth that this sector enjoyed of 1.8 per cent in the year 2000 because of late delivery of input. 

Mr Speaker, moving to mining, paragraph 21 of the Budget Speech, I want to find out from the hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development whether he can try and clarify the last paragraph which says, and I quote:

    ‘The sector is expected to perform better in 2001 and beyond.’

Mr Speaker, I was wondering because in the year 2000, despite that copper prices went up about 13 per cent, however, the prices remained at 30 per cent below the 1995/97 prices due to high level stocks. My worry and concern here is that the hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development must try and clarify because I do not agree with him. The prices of copper is still 30 per cent below the 1995/97. In the year 2001, we have got so many stocks of copper and the prices may even go, may be lower. I want you to try and clarify. May be you could have some better points where you are getting the confidence that this sector is expected to perform better in the year 2001.

I will move on to tourism, Mr Speaker. Under tourism, I would like to give my thanks to the Republican President who has actually brought about a ban on hunting, and I hope that is going to try and revamp our parks and game management areas.

However, I would like the hon. Minister of Tourism, through the Government, to ensure that the wildlife scouts who were separated from National Parks and Wildlife, now falling under the Zambia Wildlife Authority, should be deployed. Most of these people are still staying in the same old camps. There were rumours that some camps would be closed. Some of the scouts have not even been repatriated to their home areas. As a result, they have become the biggest poachers. 

Mr Speaker, these scouts know the game management areas better than anybody because they used to patrol these areas. It is better that when we make a decision as Government, we should be quick to move in to remove them out because they are going to deplete the parks and the game management areas. It is important that we look at the re-organisation of ZAWA so that it completes it mission and then it is seen to be working.

In the same view, Mr Speaker, 2001 is a very important year. We are going to have so many people coming to Zambia. We should take advantage and make some money. This is where I disagree with my uncle, Hon. Tetamashimba who condemned the hosting of the Organisation of African Unity Heads of State Summit by Zambia. Let them come here so that they see Zambia. When they go back, they will tell the people out there that Zambia is a potential country.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mushala: But, it can only be a potential country if we can revamp our tourism. Let us put in place full packages that as the tourists come, we will be able to take them to our parks. Site seeing at game management areas could bring in a lot of money. When the ban is been lifted, they will still come back and hunt. So, through tourism, we are able to make funds. We are going to have the eclipse of the sun, but what are we doing as a Government? We are not moving in that direction. It is important that we take advantage of this year’s activities to try and sell Zambia and market the country. The Government should not let the Heads of State go back to their countries before they have seen what potential our tourism can offer to them.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mushala: Mr Speaker, I do agree with my uncle hon. Tetamashimba on construction when he said that we should try and employ as many Zambians as possible. The foreign companies should give employment to our Zambian people. Our population has increased. Therefore, we have so many people loafing. When we have got such good projects going around the country, we should ensure that more Zambians are employed.

In paragraph 28, the hon. Minister said, and I quote:

    ‘The activities in the sector continued to be largely driven by public infrastructure programmes such as the construction of roads, schools and market. In addition, an expansion in private sector residential construction and the Presidential Housing Initiative (PHI), through which our people are being empowered, also played a role in the growth in the sector.’

We should take advantage and ensure that our loafing young men and women are employed and not employing foreigners. This is not a good move for the Government.

The Government has done very well in terms of road network in urban areas. No one will deny that and we congratulate the Government on that. But it is important that the road network should not only be improved in urban areas, it should also move to the rural areas. The majority of us here come from rural areas. We want our roads also to be improved. I concur with what Hon. Major Kamanga was saying that year in year out, money is set aside, but there is no road improvement in the rural areas. That should not happen this year. Let us also ensure and show the people of Zambia this year that the MMD Government is serious. We should construct, at least, ten houses under the Presidential Housing Initiative in every district and then we will have no shame to explain to the people about this good Budget.

Mr Speaker, I will now talk about the external sector development. Under the external sector developments, I would like to inform the hon. Minister of Finance that he was not clear somewhere in between paragraph 50, and I quote:

    ‘Under the initiative, Zambia will get over US$3.8 billion debt cancellation over the next twenty-two years. More than 75 per cent of the debt relief of the IMF and World Bank will be provided in the first 3 to 5 yeas starting from 2001.’

How much is the IMF and World Bank debt? Is it the bigger or small portion? If we knew that, then we would know how much we are going to get because that is what is expected to be spent within up to the year 2003. Maybe if he can clarify on that one, then that will be well, Sir.

I would like, Mr Speaker, to move to the Development Bank of Zambia (DBZ). It is a good idea that DBZ should be recapitalised and that US$10 million has been pumped into it. However, we should not fall in the same problems or pit that we fell into in the past. The amount of US$10 million can be lent to only ten people because one person can get US$1 million. I hope that this is not a target for certain individuals whose applications have already been approved.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mushala: What we should start by doing, Sir, is to ensure that DBZ has got well qualified staff - people who understand the lending principals and the canons of lending. In banking, Sir, they say the canons of lending. The people we have at DBZ may not be able to lend out this US$10 million properly which is going to improve the economy of our country. It is important that, first of all, the staffing at DBZ is well restructured.

Mr Speaker, I would briefly comment on Public Service Capacity Building Project (PSCAP). I do agree with the hon. Minister. I would like this, also, to be pushed to local councils. On page 11, paragraph 73, the hon. Minister said, and I quote:

    ‘In this regard, the Zambia Investment Centre through the auspices of the Ministry of Local Government and Housing will assist each and every district to formulate investment profiles ...’

Mr Speaker: Order! The hon. Member’s time has expired.

Mr Ngulube (Lundazi): Thank you for giving me this opportunity to add my voice this afternoon to the debate on the Floor of the House.

Mr Speaker, the 2001 Budget Address made me get a bit happy when the hon. Minister was pronouncing the words, ‘empowering people for prosperity’.

Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has failed to empower the people of Zambia to prosper as he claims in his Budget Address. I will talk about agriculture.

Mr Speaker, since Zambia qualified for HIPC, small-scale farmers should have automatically qualified for HIPC and debt relief this season. The small scale farmer has lost his cattle, goat, sheep, pig, household and they are not going

to be the poorest of the poor when farming actually is supposed to benefit the rural people. So the hon. Minister has automatically failed to empower people with this economy.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ngulube: Mr Speaker, we have formed the co-operative societies under the guidance of the Government. And we have agreed and done it. But the problem there is that without the Co-operative Bank, these co-operative societies will not get any assistance from anywhere. First and foremost, if we are going to run these co-operatives efficiently, the Co-operative Bank must be put in place. Out of the three hon. Ministers that we have, one Minister should be put in charge of the co-operative movement including the bank so that he should be able to let the co-operative movement to run its own affairs. The FRA should assist in the buying of these farm produce and the arrangement should be between the FRA and the Co-operative Bank under the supervision of the ministry. But this is not happening. So how is the co-operative movement going to work? For me, it is an abortion.

Laughter.

Mr Ngulube: Mr Speaker, the district marketing and trade officers, formerly known as the DMCOs, are not supervising these co-operatives which have been put in place because they have no role to play. The co-operatives and co-operators themselves are left to run their own matters whilst the office of the district marketing and co-operating officer which is supposed to help in how to make the co-operatives, give them some seminars, and educate them on how they can make these co-operatives are dormant. When they go to the office of the District Agriculture Officers, DACOs, you find that even the DACO has no knowledge on how to train a small-scale farmer and how he can benefit from a co-operative society. When we talk about these co-operative societies, it is not that we talk about fertiliser alone. Others want to do poultry or piggery co-operatives and so on but there are no trainers. Now how is agriculture going to take off? This is also another failure.

Hon. Government Member: Another abortion.

Mr Ngulube: Yes, it is another abortion.

Laughter

Mr Ngulube: Mr Speaker, the Food Reserve Agency as a food security body should be able to buy all crops from all farmers be it commercial, medium or small-scale farmers and everybody else. They should be a marketing body, not only keeping food. In fact, for people to access it, they have to pay. They need sureties and things like that. So, how is it helping the people of Zambia? It is not helping us at all. 

Mr Speaker, I feel that agriculture should be well restructured so that these officers who are sitting on the distribution of inputs in good time should all be fired because they are the ones who are making this nation to fail. How can fertiliser distribution be done in February when the maize has already tasseled? What is fertiliser going to do? It is not going to help the farmer. So I expect the hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development, as he said that he is empowering people for prosperity, to make sure that he cancels all the previous loans which were given to small-scale farmers. Then assist them so that these grants which will be given to people should not be paid so that at least the people are able to start afresh from a scratch.

Mr Speaker, the defunct lending institutions like Lima Bank, CUSA and  other lending institutions have really given a lot of problems to farmers and yet they have never been able to pay back to the Government. They have just been giving a lot of problems to farmers.

Mr Speaker, I want to stress on the point that the Nitrogen Chemicals of Zambia is something that we should be proud of and it is something that should not be privatised or ignored because it is the future and life of all Zambians.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ngulube: Mr Speaker, why are we failing to support and give enough money to Nitrogen Chemicals of Zambia if we are saying agriculture is going to revamp and improve on the economy of the people of Zambia? Why not support and give it more money? In fact, it produces the best fertiliser such as X-compound and ammonium nitrate. For the maize crop to do well, we need between 50 and 56 per cent nitrogen chemicals. So automatically D-compound, urea, X-compound and ammonium nitrate are the best fertilisers for all soils in Zambia. What are we afraid of? The Government should put up a deliberate policy to fund the Nitrogen Chemicals of Zambia if we are to improve in agriculture.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear

Mr Wina (Chililabombwe): Mr Speaker, I am grateful for the opportunity you have given me to contribute to the debate on the motion.

I must congratulate my father-in-law, the hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development for what I think is a very well thought out budget. I am sure that hundreds of thousands of people who followed this budget either on television or radio must have received some ray of hope that, perhaps, this country, truly, is different from our neighbours who are running away from burning villages and looted towns and that there is a future here which Zambians can build on this soil. Perhaps, the hon. Minister was helped by the fact that he is one of the few if not the only tripartite Zambian in this House. He was born in Luapula Province, married a beautiful Lozi girl from Barotseland and now established and settled in the Eastern Province.

Laughter.

Mr Wina: Mr Speaker, I must admit from the beginning that ours has not been an easy road at all to travel. And when he took the oath as President on the steps of the High Court on the 2nd November, 1991, our President, Dr. F. J. T. Chiluba, in his inauguration speech said, and I quote:

    The Zambia we inherit is destitute, ravaged by excesses, ineptitude and straight corruption of a party and a people who have been in power for too long. When our first President stood up to address you twenty-seven years ago, he was addressing a country full of hope and glory, a country fresh from the power of youth and full and rich dowry. Now the coffers are empty. The people are poor, The misery is endless.'

Mr Speaker, I believe that it is against this background that we should evaluate not only the Budget of 2001, but the progress that has been made during the past ten years along the road towards economic recovery. I think one of the biggest programmes which we adopted when we came into power here was regarded privatisation which the hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development has devoted quite sometime in his budget speech. 

Mr Speaker, ever since our ascension to power, the privatisation programme which culminated in the sale of the copper mines has taught us several lessons which, in using hindsight, we could, perhaps, have done better. But again hindsight does not solve serious economic problems. 

It can only set some guidelines for the future and sometimes I do wish, in my lonely moments, that listening to the contributions hon. Members made in this House, that it would have been, preferably, perhaps, in future, to give us an opportunity to meet before the Budget not in a formal session with the Speaker, but as Members of Parliament so that we could make our inputs into this Budget because these contributions are very serious, indeed.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Wina: Mr Speaker, let that be as it is. I believe that for the moment we owe the people of Zambia a big congratulations for having tolerated and been patient with us during the very difficult times which we have all gone through during the past ten years through the problem of Privatisation. Mr speaker, it has not been easy, as I said and last August, the Central Statistical Office (CSO) revealed that over 100,000 people lost their jobs between 1992 and 1997. The country saw the closure of 105 companies in 1997 and 224 companies in 1998 and, according to the Registrar of Companies, this led to 11,805 jobs lost. These are not easy statistics. They look very simple on paper but when you translate them into homes and villages, the consequences are disastrous and cannot be taken lightly at all.

Mr Speaker, unfortunately, the programme we adopted is the programme which was imposed on us, with our own compliance, by the International Monetary Fund, the programme which has been followed by other countries, who have also experienced almost similar problems, for quite a long time. Let us take into account that when the IMF was founded in 1944 towards the end of the Second World War, it was not established as a charitable organisation. It was Americans out to do business with the world that was on its knees following the disaster of the Second World War. The whole purpose of IMF was, of course, to uphold the hegemony of the United States’ economy and that policy has not changed since 1944. It might have varied from one angle to another but fundamentally, it still remains the same. So we go through the same problems, the Structural Adjustment Programme (SAP), Poverty Reduction and Growth Facility (PRGF) and, last year, the Poverty Reduction Strategy Paper and somehow we do not seem to be making any big headway at all and yet we are moving.  I believe that we are moving as can be made evident by the fact that other countries realised our sacrifices and they want to help in the dire straits in which we are. Hence Canada’s offer to write-off her external debt and hence Italy's offer to write off its external debt.

All this, I think, is because they respected the discipline of the Zambian people and the determination of the people to forge ahead with the economic problem no matter how difficult it is provided we know that at the end of the day, it has worked if not for us but for our children.

Mr Speaker, I come to the serious problem concerning the privatisation of the mines which the Minister of Finance and Economic Development referred to. It was a good exercise because when you take into account the mess in which the mining industry was just before its privatisation in 1971 when the old man KK decided to take over the mines and run them according to his own philosophy, the workforce then was 45,000 workers producing 700,000 tonnes of copper. By the time we were getting rid of KK’s philosophy and selling the mines, the working population had dropped to 30,000 workers and producing only 250,000 tonnes of copper. It was a sad situation for some of us who represent Copperbelt constituencies, driving through those towns was like driving through a big funeral village. The silence and fear of the unknown was so evident you could touch it with your bare hands. That ,I think, has changed now with the sale of the mines and we do believe that Anglo-America and other groups should be able to put in a lot of money in order to revamp and, perhaps, create more job opportunities.

Mr Speaker, I do not want to get involved in the diatribes of the Kafue Consortium. Was it better than we have done? Neither do I want to refer to the controversies of the Parliamentary Committee that sat to reveal the sale of the copper mines which was very critical indeed about the way in which we went about this exercise. What I would like to plead really with the new owners of the mines is to understand that we have bent over backwards in our negotiations with them and have given them a prime which they could not find in any other country in the world. To that effect, therefore, they should also recognise that some of the offers we made to them would never have been made anywhere at all. I am not here referring to the price, but to such things as free duty which covers not only mining equipment but even household goods, bottles of brandy, etc. It is all duty free.

Mr Patel: Shame!

Mr Wina: You can never get conditions like that for the next twenty years. These are there for anybody to see in the Statutory Instrument No. 33 and No. 39 signed in March, 2000 by the Minister of Finance and Economic Development. So it is extremely important that the owners of these mines should know that we have gone over backwards in order to accommodate them.

Another problem arose recently when it was reported very authoritatively that there are statistics to show that although mining firms in the country last year earned about US $520 million from sales of copper and cobalt, only US $247 million was released to the local market. The rest of the money, US  $275 million, was retained in accounts outside Zambia. That is a serious situation, Sir, and I do hope that the President might act on matters of this nature like he acted on matters of foreign exchange and intervene directly in order to ensure that this type of milking, letting the cow graze the grass of Zambia but getting milked outside Zambia does not continue.

The question of terminal benefits and pensions have always come to this House. It is sad to see old men who have spent twenty-five to thirty years of their lives working for this Government, even if it was the previous Government, still sleeping at markets at night from Solwezi, Kalabo or Chipata waiting for their terminal benefits as if they are begging for this money and yet it is the money which they worked for during their youth when they were still young men and when that amount of money should have been given to them at the time when they left the service.

It is, however, gratifying to note that this year, the hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development has assured us that money has started going out now to pay these people and I do hope that, perhaps, as we go on, this money will be sent to the provinces so that these people do not need to come to Lusaka to sleep in the markets and undergo all those difficult conditions.

The constructing sector has been hinted upon and I do not intend to overplay that problem, but it is very, very clear to anybody throughout the whole world that a country’s prosperity is measured by its construction programme. Where a country is prosperous, you will find new buildings going up, but where a country has almost gone down, you will find that there is absolutely nothing.

Here in Zambia we are going through a very, very interesting phase where the buildings are going up, but our problem, as other hon. Members who spoke earlier have said, is the fact that these projects do not have the Zambian people in terms of employment. Sometimes I wonder what happened to the once vibrant Congress of Trade Unions which we used to have. I think, perhaps, it went to sleep or it is on sabbatical leave since its founding father moved into Government. I wished they were still there. Perhaps, these problems could not have continued as they are doing. I am only going to take one example, Mr Speaker. One of the big projects which has come to this country over which we are, really, getting very, very shoddy deal. I am referring here to the construction of the Chirundu Bridge. Mr Speaker, the construction of the Chirundu Bridge which is going on now, due to our very, very lax labour laws in Zambia has resulted in the Zimbabwean workers being paid four times higher than their counterparts at the construction of the new Chirundu Bridge. Zimbabwean labourers are paid K220,000 tax free while Zambians are getting K60,000 which is taxed.

Hijima Co-operation is a Japanese company contracted to construct the bridge and has employed workers from both countries and as labourers, they are doing exactly the same job. These Zimbabwean general workers, Mr Speaker, are even getting higher wages than Zambian professionals like Zambian surveyors. What has gone wrong? When somebody at the Ministry of Works and Supply was asked this question, the project co-ordinator at the Ministry of Works and Supply, Mr Duma Haamane, I hope I am not jeopardising his employment prospect, he said that wage negotiations were done by individual countries. So, it is not the fault of the construction company, it is the fault of our Government which has not been alert to this problem. So, instead of us boasting about how many projects we have, how many foreign investors have invested here, let us look and see whether  those investors are, actually, benefiting our people through employment. 

The Sun Hotel is another very, very big project, Mr Speaker, worth US $45.65 million, which is going up very, very well. Again, if you go there you will find carpenters, plumbers, brick-layers, mixers, all of them are from South Africa or Zimbabwe and yet our technical colleges and institutions are producing these men and women every year, and they are spilling them out on the streets. Why is it that it has not occurred to somebody to say, why do we not use some of these young men and women? I think that we better look out, Mr Speaker, that this type of thing does not continue.

I would like to almost end my contribution by referring to the famous HIPC Initiative. The HIPC Initiative, Mr Speaker, again, is one of those programmes which one has to follow, if one is following IMF policies and we are in the group of countries like Benin, Bolivia, Burkina Faso, Cameroon, Guyana, Honduras, Mali, Mauritania, Mozambique, Senegal, Tanzania and Uganda. All of them have just got promoted to the HIPC Initiative stage. It is a disease of the third world countries that they have to go through this humiliation imposed upon them because of our backgrounds. Protests all over the world, Mr Speaker, have been mounted against the policies of IMF. Protest meetings have been held from Philippines ...

Mr Speaker: Order! 

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

Mr Wina: Mr Speaker, when business was suspended, I was speaking on the HIPC problem and I was winding up by saying that despite the half of the cake we have been given, it is gratifying that the HIPC funding shall go to the three areas where it is required most, that is at health, education and HIV/AIDS. Mr Speaker, on that note, I would like to congratulate the new hon. Minister of Health for the tremendous amount of work he has done there ever since he moved there. He has started fine tuning the ministry and we hope that we shall get better results next time.

I would also like to congratulate the hon. Minister of Education on the very useful and methodical manner in which he has employed the MPU programme of building schools and teachers’ houses throughout the whole country.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Wina: These are plans, Mr Speaker, which, I think, translated properly will make us believe that we could use some of these funds properly. Funds have also been given to the Anti-Corruption Commission, Mr Speaker, although corruption in this country has not yet grown beyond the points of Liberia where its former President, William Tolbet, said to give a job to a fellow tribesman is not nepotism, it is an act of obligation, for a politician to choose his closest advisers and his body guards from the ranks of his own tribe is not patronage, it is good common sense, ...

Laughter.

Mr Wina: ...and to employ your fellow tribesman ensures security, continuity and authority.

Laughter.

Mr Wina: This is the type of corruption we see throughout Africa and I am very grateful, Mr Speaker, that this has not yet, at least, come to this country in this original form.

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. T. A. Banda (Mkaika): Mr Speaker, I thank you for an opportunity to contribute to the debate on this very important motion moved by the hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development. 

Mr Speaker, I wish to begin my debate by congratulating the hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development, Dr Katele Kalumba, who is my cousin by tradition and a very dynamic cousin as well who has lastly settled, as said by the hon. Member for Chililabombwe, in the Eastern Province, but operating from the seat of Government in Lusaka, for having delivered the 2001 Budget in a rarely unique and precise manner. Indeed, Mr Speaker, he was loud and clear and kept everybody listening throughout his address.

Mr Speaker, talking on the overall performance of the Budget for 2001, I have discovered that figures that are indicated there are very pleasing and satisfactory. I have seen in the Budget, agriculture growing by 1.8 per cent, tourism by 7.2 per cent, manufacturing by 13.4 per cent and construction by 1.2 per cent. The mean average of the gross rate comes to about 5.9 per cent. It is regrettable, however, that we are unable to keep inflation within the estimated confines. We have seen it instead rise up to about 30 per cent by the end of 2000. Inflation is a big nuisance to a developing economy because it does dictate growth on any of the sectors in the economy. It is for this reason that I would wish to urge my good and dynamic cousin, as he is, to continue to fight inflation so that it can be controlled and brought within ...

Dr Kamata: Use the microphone!

Mr Banda: Thank you very much my other cousin. ... within acceptable levels.

My third point, Mr Speaker, is on Government proposal for this year, which is that Government will spend K5,015.05 billion as opposed to K2,957 billion last year. I note, Sir, that the computations on this one show that 48 per cent of this year’s Budget will be internally funded while 55 per cent will be donor supported. 

Sir, in the previous years the Budget patterns have been funded differently. What I mean here is that, in 1997 there was 32 per cent of the Budget which was internally dependent on donor funding and the rest was locally funded. In 1998, 35 per cent was donor dependent whilst the rest was internally funded. In 1999 34 per cent was donor dependent and in 2000 it was 32 per cent which was again donor dependent.

Mr Speaker, be it as it shows in ratios, this year’s Budget has been very welcome by even my young cousin Hon. Lucas Phiri and also by Hon. Dr Sondashi, Member of Parliament for Solwezi Central, who has spoken very high praises for this Budget. Mr Speaker, what is more comforting is that all sectors have welcomed this year’s Budget, including donor communities and indeed, the civil society.

Sir, I want to implore and indeed plead with the hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development to play his other role and ensure that this Budget remains supported. He should influence or persuade those other players in Government so that he induces compliance on those “conditions” required of us to follow in order to see the Budget policies achieve their targets. 

For other stakeholders, my appeal, Mr Speaker, is that they should arise to this occasion and be counted in playing their roles in facilitating the success of this Budget.

My fourth, Mr Speaker, is on job creation. The theme for this year is ‘Empowering People for Prosperity’. Sir, I would want to adopt this theme as appropriate as it reads with this Budget. Browsing through the Budget, it is not hard to find 200,000 jobs given on a silver plate to the female heads of 200,000 households. This is a very welcome move. And indeed if you multiply this, job creation will, without exaggeration, be thousands and thousands of jobs in the economy and more so, in the remote parts of this country.

Mr Speaker, let me punctuate my debate with the comment on the allocation of the two institutions of higher learning, namely UNZA and CBU. This year’s Budget allocation is at  K31.9 billion in form of grant to the two institutions. Last year the two institutions received a grant of K23 billion with K16.276 billion going to University of Zambia.

Mr Speaker, I commend the effort of the hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development and wish to thank him for this allocation. But I must say that I am a worried member of the of the University Council of Zambia because this allocation of K31.9 billion to the two institutions is only swallowed up by UNZA’s budget for 2001. Perhaps, you may need to know that UNZA indebtedness alone, up to last year December 31 was K34.6 billion. That is a lot of money. And we only depend on the grants from the Treasury. And if this is what is allowed for the two institutions, I am afraid that we will still be calling for trouble in that university. 

I do not have to remind this august House, Mr Speaker, that there were work stoppages from various categories of workers in that university. And more so, by the lecturers and other category of workers. This is because the university was unable to pay wages, salaries and indeed allowances which they so much deserved. 

Mr Speaker, I was convinced that, perhaps, the Minister of Finance and Economic Development would do a better job by giving them a little more money this year so that the university should bury the past and look forward to progress. I hope that we will make changes in the Budget and make adjustments so that the two universities are allowed a small figure of about K45 billion.

Mr Speaker, my last point on this Budget is on ROADSIP, housing development and real estate businesses. Sir, I note that the construction sector ...

Mr Walubita crossed the Floor.

Mr C. T. A. Banda: ... grew by 1.2 per cent. My concern, Sir, is that this growth is not matched with the growth on the ground. When you talk about roads, they are done today and before the contractor leaves the site, the roads collapse. This is a sad thing.

Mr B. Ngosa: Talk through the microphone.

Mr C. T. A. Banda: Mr Speaker, I know that Hon. Kapolo Kamanga Vere...

Laughter.

Mr C. T. A. Banda: ... is not following me because, perhaps, my microphone is boycotting him but I will try and make use of this very important equipment.

Mr Speaker, I was talking about the collapse of roads soon after or even before the contractor leaves site. Perhaps, the problem here is one of tender selection because we simply pick these contractors. I am told that mostly they are picked from Lusaka and when they get home, they do not know the terrain and so they just do shoddy work and in a matter of hours, after the rains have come, the roads are back to square one.

Mr Speaker, I would like the hon. Minister to resort to the old contractors who were trained soon after ROADSIP was introduced. The Lusaka Roads Training Institute trained contractors to do this work and the roads that have been done by these contractors which are feeder roads and they were done manually are still intact. We would wish to see that done and repeated throughout the country.

Mr Speaker, my last observation on the Budget 2001 is that this is the first Budget that has made mention of maintaining reserves sufficient to under pin the county’s monetary stability. This is a great effort and a bold step forward. I must congratulate the hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development on this important decision.

With these few remarks, I thank you.

Mr Speaker: Order! I would like to guide the House. Twice, while the hon. Member for Mkaika was speaking, the Chair’s line of vision was obstructed by Members cutting across. It is not allowed.

Mr Matutu (Kafulafuta): Mr Speaker, I thank you for affording me this opportunity to contribute to this debate.

Sir, I would like to congratulate the hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development on a well presented Budget. Mr Speaker, I also want to congratulate my new neighbour, Hon. Alfred Njovu, on his nomination to this House. He is a believer in the old adage that ‘If you cannot beat them, join them’.

Laughter.

Mr Matutu: Mr Speaker, having said that, I would like to say that although this year’s Budget is 47 per cent internally financed, it is a good Budget. It shows that we, through the MMD Government, are striving to try and meet the Budget one day on our own. We have moved from 30 per cent to 47 per cent and maybe, next year we shall get to 60 per cent. In five years time, we should be able to finance this Budget 100 per cent.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Matutu: Mr Speaker, I want to say that the very fact that 53 per cent of this Budget is donor financed shows the confidence that the donor countries, the IMF and the World Bank, have in the MMD Government. Sir, if they did not have confidence, they should not have allowed the donors to give us this money to finance the Budget. It means that we are in the right direction.

Major Kamanga: You are talking like a Minister.

Laughter.

Mr Matutu: Hon. Kamanga, once a Minister always a Minister.

Laughter.

Mr Matutu: Mr Speaker, I wish to register that I am very happy that the hon. Minister has indicated at long last that he is going to bring registration to stop...

Dr Mbikusita-Lewanika: Registration and not legislation?

Mr Matutu: Legislation. My friend, I am schooled enough.

Mr Speaker, before I was interrupted by the hon. former Princess from kwa hae, I was explaining that I was happy that the hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development is finally bringing legislation to stop credit providers from charging compound interest. For the sake of the people from kwa hae who may not understand what compound interest means, it means interest on interest.

Mr Speaker, a lot of Zambian businesses have actually folded up because of compound interest. So many business houses, particularly on the Copperbelt have borrowed from commercial banks or other lending institutions. They have pledged their property as collateral and because of compound interest, they have failed to redeem their debts, and their properties have been auctioned just to recover a bit of the money they borrowed. The matters have not been resolved.

Mr Speaker, we are eagerly waiting for this Bill. We will support it as soon as it comes to the House. I have a lot of interest in this matter.

Laughter.

Mr Matutu: Mr Speaker, the other point I would like to bring out is that as a business man, as a supplier to Government institutions, I am also impressed that the hon. Minister has this year allocated K40 billion towards the settlement of outstanding arrears to Government suppliers. Government suppliers have suffered in the last three years.

Mr Walubita: Declare interest.

Mr Matutu: I have already declared interest. The Government suppliers have suffered in the last three or four years in trying to get money from the State. After they have supplied goods, they have not been paid.

As a result, they have been persecuted by the people from whom they borrowed the money. Most of them have lost property through this system.

Major Kamanga: Most of us!

Mr Matutu: I have not yet lost any property, Hon. Kamanga.

I wish to say that it is a good attempt to try and dismantle this pipeline and I hope that you will start releasing this money to these suppliers as soon as possible so that they can come out of this mess that they are in.

Mr Speaker, a few hon. Members of Parliament that spoke yesterday where saying that the hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development was wrong by reducing excise duty on clear beer from 100 per cent to 85 per cent. Some of them even went to an extent of saying that the removal of 15 per cent sales tax on opaque beer, the Government is not helping the situation, but is trying to promote drinking. Mr Speaker, I beg to disagree with that thinking. Zambia, though a Christian nation, people must be able to relax.

Interruptions.

Mr Ngulube: Yes! After drinking beer ...

Dr Mbikusita-Lewanika: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Dr Mbikusita-Lewanika: Mr Speaker, I rise on a very serious point of order. Is the hon. Member of Parliament for Kafulafuta Constituency in order to advocate and equate beer drinking to relaxing when he knows very well that many of our young people are drinking too much because the bar owners are not adhering to the law by opening the bars in the morning? Is he in order to turn this country into a nation of drunkards? I need your serious ruling.

Hon. Members: Aah!

Mr Speaker: The Chair wishes to seriously advise or guide the hon. Member of Parliament for Kafulafuta Constituency to debate that subject.

May he, please, continue.

Dr Mbikusita-Lewanika: Hear, hear! {mospagebreak}

Laughter.

Mr Matutu: Mr Speaker, although I do not drink beer, it is on medical grounds, but I want to say that I am not a hypocrite. I love churches like Jehovah’s Witness, Catholics, etc., because they allow drinking beer. They only say that do not get drunk and lose your minds, but you should be able to relax.

Laughter.

Mr Matutu: I do not like pretenders who say that they do not drink and in the evening you see them hiding in a small bar or room drinking. That is not good. Whom are you cheating? Is it God? Let us be real and ourselves. If we have to relax, let us do it publicly.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Mbikusita-Lewanika: What about the young children?

Mr Matutu: Not secretly and pretend like the hon. Member of Parliament for Mongu Central Constituency.

Laughter.

Mr Matutu Mr Speaker, call a spade a spade. One of my colleagues in here is a polygamist, but he comes out in the open and says he is a polygamist and there is nothing wrong with that. Mr Speaker, I do not like the people who come from kwa hae because I know that most of them are polygamous, but they are hiding their polygamy.

Laughter.

Mr Matutu: Mr Speaker, I want to move away from that subject. Contrary to the thinking of other Members of Parliament, the Minister of Finance and Economic Development has done a commendable job.

Mr Hatembo: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Hatembo: Mr Speaker, I stand on a very serious point of order. Is the hon. Member of Parliament for Kafulafuta Constituency in order to confirm in this House that the people of Western Province are all polygamous when he knows very well that the Chair is also from Western Province?

Laughter.

Mr Speaker: The hon. Deputy Minister of Home Affairs was not alert. He raised the point of order when it was already too late. The hon. Member of Parliament for Kafulafuta had already moved on to the next point. So, the Chair cannot rule.

May the hon. Member, please, continue.

Laughter.

Mr Matutu: Mr Speaker, thank you for that protection.

Before, I was interrupted by my brother, the hon. Deputy Minister of Home Affairs, I was trying to say that 15 per cent reduction on Sales Tax and Excise Duty will actually reduce the price of beer both opaque and clear and will result in increased sales which will in turn give the ministry more money through these levies. Hon. Minister, you have done a good job on this one. It has been long awaited. Please, go ahead.

Mr Speaker, there is still a problem as far as the traders are concerned. The licence fees, wholesale, retail and liquor are still very high in this country compared to today’s business. There is not enough business going around business houses to warrant the kind of fees that the businessmen have been asked to pay. As a result, Mr Speaker, a lot of business houses are not paying these fees. So, it is not helping the Government at all.

Mr Speaker, I suggest that these fees be reduced by 50 per cent and most businessmen will actually abide. The Government will realise enough money from these fees. As it stands, a lot of businessmen are evading paying these fees and the councils are running broke as a result.

Mr Speaker, I will not be doing a service to the people of the Copperbelt Province and Ndola in particular, if I do not tell the Minister of Finance and Economic Development that although the overall Budget is allright, he has failed to address the plight of Ndola town. Ndola has been the hub of industry on the Copperbelt and Zambia. It has all the infrastructure. The buildings, roads, etc., and the machinery to some extent, but because there is no policy in place to attract investors to Ndola, it is slowly becoming a ghost town. The buildings are being vandalised by the day.

Mr Speaker, out of a working population of about 200, 000, maybe, less than 5 per cent are in employment. As a result of this, the crime levels have gone up. Poverty has reached the level that I have not seen in my living memory in Ndola.

Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development kindly address the plight of Ndola like he is doing for Livingstone. There are a lot of incentives that he can give to businessmen that can invest in Ndola, where the infrastructure is already in place to attract them, to come and create employment and wealth on the Copperbelt so that the living standards of our people are improved.

With these very few words, Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Sichinga (Isoka East): Thank you very much, Mr Speaker, for availing me the chance to make a contribution on the 2001 Budget Speech by the hon. Minister and I would like to start by congratulating my dear old friend, Dr Katele Kalumba.

Dr Mbikusita-Lewanika: He is a former friend now.

Mr Sichinga: I am being reminded that he is a former friend now because he has changed his colours.

Dr Mbikusita-Lewanika: Even his heart.

Mr Sichinga: I must congratulate him for his changes, ...

Dr Mbikusita-Lewanika: He is a chameleon.

Mr Sichinga: ...especially in the manner of how he has delivered both the last year’s speech and this year’s speech.

If the enthusiasm and gospel like preaching that we had last Friday could be translated into real action and benefit to our people, it would even be better.

Dr Mbikusita-Lewanika: Kulimela mwahanu.

Mr Sichinga: Before I go very far, a number of statements have been made to hell this budget as one of the most balanced, well articulated, well spoken and well sort out. As an accountant and auditor, I always look behind things to find out just how well a budget is implemented. I appreciate the melodramatic manner in which my colleague delivered the speech. It was in true style of a kind student of a great teacher.

Dr Mbikusita-Lewanika: Hear, hear! KK muyaya!

Laughter.

Mr Sichinga: And knowing how well my colleague researches, I am sure that he did a lot of work to ensure that the right words were used.

I wish last year and the year before went beyond mere words. We can only charge the performance of the Government by how they performed in the past to tell us how they should perform now.

Mr Speaker, I would like to tell this House and through this House, the nation that this Budget is very deceptive because a budget is not relying on just year’s affairs or events. It is a build up. What happens this year is building up on what there was last year. If you have a balanced sheet or statement of affairs of what happened or what the position was as at 31st December, 2000, you cannot just jump from there to a new scenario. You have to link the backward linkages to what has happened.

Mr Speaker, I would like to remind this House that in the Report of your Committee on Estimates, a number of suggestions were made about improvements in order to enhance the information that is available to hon. Members of Parliament.

One of our colleagues earlier on spoke that it would be necessary and useful for the Committees of this House to have had the opportunity to sit down with the hon. Minister to go through so that we do not have any misunderstandings about what is in here.

On the Floor of this House, in twenty minutes, it is very difficult to discuss this Budget fully. I would like to say this that I am drawing from thirty-two years of professional experience as an accountant.

Dr Mbikusita-Lewanika: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichinga: I would like to say this to this House and I know many are shaking heads about that particular issue. We are talking about a national Budget. I have prepared budget for ZCCM which almost the biggest institution that we had in this country. I have a feel for what it involves. So, I would like to share that benefit and experience with this House.

Many times, Sir, this House has almost without correction passed budgets that are presented. That means we are finding nothing wrong with budgets - they are allright. That is what it means. At the end of the day, hon. Members come back to this House and approve supplementary estimates. What does that mean? It means that the Government did not stick to what it said it would do, yet the budgets have had approved. What is even worth is that if you look at the major areas of ministries and departmental expenditures, most of them are not even funded to the level that this House has approved.

Mr Patel: Correct.

Mr Sichinga: I can say to you safely that the disbursement against budgets ranges from 46 per cent to 59 per cent. Only one year, it did go to 61 per cent of what this House had budgeted.

Mr Speaker, I noticed the hon. Minister of Finance is shaking his head, I have got the facts with me here. I would like to say this that for as long as this Government is reliant on donor driven support and funding that is showing as far as our figures are concerned at 53 per cent, it means that unless you fulfil the conditionalities of what the donors are expecting, especially under HIPC, it means that you run the risk of not receiving the full benefit of what has been agreed upon.

What are the implications? Mr Speaker, the implications are that you cannot fulfil this Budget of over 5 trillion because there will not be the money to fund it. We are relying to a great extent of 53 per cent on donors and that is an increase over last year and the previous year.

Mr Speaker, the commitments that have been made here and I would want to connect them to the President’s speech. The President did make a point about the performance of the manufacturing sector. On page twenty-three of his speech, the President said that there had been major failures in the manufacturing sector of our country. Now, why is the performance of the manufacturing sector important? It is important because that is what contributes, to a large extent, to the GDP of the country. We can fidget around with moneys and paper transfers, if we are not producing anything to provide to the market, we are doomed to failure and that is why over nine years with declining manufacturing sector, we are seeing the impact of it cumulatively. hon. Members, make no mistake. For as long as we have no product to take to that market or our products are highly priced and therefore, uncompetitive, such as examples that were given by other hon. Colleagues, cement and others like that, we will not be able to compete in the free trade area. It means other countries are able to perform better than ourselves. It is a free market. For as long as this country is not contributing more, it simply means that we re not going to achieve the level of development and productivity, which is being talked abut in this Budget.

Mr Speaker, I have spent more time going through the yellow pages and I will not bore this House with details because they are available.

The hon. Minister made a point and said that this year, he was going to support the Audit Office. Now, I looked at the provision that has been made for the Auditor-General’s Office. Sir, in the year 2000, the Budget provided for k3.5 billion. This year, it has provided for k3.95 billion. A change of K382 million. Now, when we look at the changes he is proposing to re-enforce, the amount will not be enough, unless there is another source. It is not in the Budget. SAo, we would have to come back with a supplementary appropriation to make up for the difference of our support to the Audit Office.

In fact, I would go as far as to say that the figures that are contained in the hon. Minister’s Speech are not all supported in the Yellow Book. They are not there. So, if that is the position, hon. Minister, I am willing to sit down with you outside and show you the differences. I am talking as an Accountant.

Interruptions.

Mr Sichinga: I am giving you an example because there are problems with it. This country's manufacturing sector is uncompetitive because of a number of costs which are exceptional in comparison to other countries. Let me give you an example. With the fuel prices that had been talked about, this country's prices are much higher ...

Mr Patel: Commissions.

Mr Sichinga: ... relative to the industry itself, the manufacturing sector in particular. Let us look at interest rates. The whole economy suffers from credit, whether you are talking about the manufacturing or trading sectors or indeed for that matter agriculture sector. The position is this. As we are talking now, if you pick any newspaper, all the banks are indicated that their best lending rates are going up. If you read today's newspaper, Zambia National Commercial Bank is showing 40 per cent. By the time a user has borrowed this money, it will be at 50 per cent. How many businesses make profit to afford 50 per cent interest rates?

What also happens is that if you go through the Bank of Zambia report and I trust that many people have had a chance to go through it, look at the back on their appendixes and look at the date that the Government has to Bank of Zambia, it is crowding out the private sector.

Mr Patel: Correct.

Mr Sichinga: You are crowding out the private sector because almost all the money is being taken in treasury bills. That means, that same amount is no longer available to industry. And what does Government do with the money? It goes into consumption not investment. If you do that, you are not going to have capacity.

Mr Speaker, there are several issues that are interlinked. An economy works together. It is not in isolation. It is all interlinked. If the linkages are broken, there will be an impact. Over the last nine years, this economy has not done well and I can tell you that it will not change until the linkages are properly done. Until we can produce more, whether it is in form of products from the manufacturing sector or agriculture sector. And the reason why I support the advocates for agriculture sector more than we are doing at the moment is because its gestation period is short. The amount you can invest in agriculture this year will yield next year. The examples have been given and I hope that hon. Members have had a chance to look at the economic report because it says so there.

Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister in his speech made reference to support using K64 billion to support small-scale farmers and more specifically he made reference of female households. I commend him for that consideration. But the need is not 200 small-scale farmers. It is in excess of 600,000 according to the Ministry of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries statistics. So what happens to the other 200,000. How will they be supported?

In any case, Mr Speaker, I want to say that every economy has a productive capacity which is not easy to change over one year. It also has an absorptive capacity to take in whatever is put at it. And that capacity can only change with time. I can safely say that whilst there has been an attempt to address as an elections year budget to be seen to be doing things that should have been done five years ago, these benefits will not accrue. Let me explain to you why.

The cash that is expected to be generated by the Ministry of Finance and Economic Development accumulates month after month. It simply means that the fertiliser that you require and the addition reserve that the hon. Minister wants to create of US$150 must be bailed overtime. Now there are some major expenditures that must be incurred right at the beginning. For example, the OAU Village must be built before July. It means within the next seven months, all that expenditure the hon. Minister has indicated must be paid.

Mr Patel: But the village is not in the Yellow Book.

Mr Sichinga: Unfortunately, I have not seen that provision in the Yellow Book. And this is an example of what I am talking about.

Mr Patel: And there was no tender also.

Mr Sichinga: Furthermore, since construction is already taking place, I am assuming that a tender has already been awarded. Many other hon. Members have alluded to the fact that you are having foreigners taking jobs which Zambians can do. So how are you going to eliminate poverty? Is this the kind of Government which only promotes external interest at the expense of local interests? 

Mr Patel: Chewing!

Mr Sichinga: It is not correct, Sir.

Mr Speaker, I made mention of the contributions that will come from HIPC and some figures are here. If you go to constitutional expenditure, you will see a figure of K792 million which is coming from the calls of HIPC. This money is unlikely to come through unless the conditionalities upon which HIPC was undertaken by the Government are met. So I am not expecting that money will come at the beginning of the year.

Furthermore, we are waiting. The hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development said to this House that he was waiting for an audit report on the profits on cobalt of US$120 million to US$150 million. I am wondering whether this is where the reserves will come from, whether this money will be found. I am still awaiting for the hon. Minister to tell this House what happened to the cobalt profits of between US$120 million to US$150 million.

Mr Patel: Tell us.

Mr Sichinga: Now, I cannot see that the capacity of the economy will raise US$150 million. And last year, I said this same statement and I have been proven because when you make comparisons with last year, you will see. I said to the hon. Minister inflation was at 32 per cent. The hon. Minister kept on saying that it was at 21 per cent. You can see the figures in his speech are saying 30.1 per cent. So finally we agree that I was right after all.

Laughter.

Mr Sichinga: Mr Speaker, I want to make reference to an area which has dropped a fair amount of money and that is Vote 99 - Constitutional and Statutory Expenditure. In that figure, there is debt servicing. In that, it calls for internal as well as external debt. 

Furthermore, there is an item called ‘Other’ and this is where some of the hon. Members of the Front Bench have told us that the Presidential Fund comes from there which this House approves. Now, the figure of Other for this year is K105 billion. Last year, it was K58 million. We can find this comparison on page 542 of the Yellow Book for this year. If hon. Members want to do so, they can look at it. I am asking the question. The K58 billion is shown as not having been expended. So where did the Presidential Fund funded from? Which vote was used if there is nothing expended according to the Yellow Book that the hon. Minister has tabled to this House?

Mr Patel: They hide it in Cabinet Office.

Mr Sichinga: So it means it is no longer being reflected on the vote on which it was originally allocated. Now I know about financial engineering but this beats all.

Mr Patel: This is crafty.

Mr Sichinga: Because it means that this House is making decisions on incorrect information. And I am being polite not to say deceiving information.

Mr Speaker, I want to acknowledge that I am a supply side economist. What does supply side mean? It means it is better for you to produce and earn your income from that than you expect that you rely on foreign debt. Because when additional monies comes from outside, they are not supported by any production here. What does that mean? It means that you must claw in the money, the excess kwacha that is created, to avoid inflation. That is what it means. Otherwise the economy will heat up.

Now what that does, Mr Speaker, is that it draws money out of the economy. That is why you see a fair amount of it being clawed back. Some commentators have said as much as K130 billion has been put out of the economy since the hon. Minister announced measures to try and reduce liquidity in the system. 

Furthermore, the banks had also been requested to reduce their liquidity. What does that mean? It means the amount of cash they are holding has been held by he Central Bank. In other words, the percentages have changed from 8 per cent of deposits to 11 per cent. That is a substantial amount. It means that money is no longer available. With the yellow light showing, I hope that those who were shaking their heads will understand that we cannot conclude the issue of economics in a twenty-minute debate. 

But I want to say this that in as much as I can see the hon. Minster wanting to make amends, I want to say that in the rural areas, you will have spend money on the roads before any of the things that you want to do here can be reached. In other words, your fertiliser, collection of the produce must have roads.

Furthermore, I have not seen in here what capacity, what means, what institution is going to use for the delivery mechanisms because in the past FRA has failed. In the ...

Mr Speaker: Order! The hon. Member's time has expired.

Mr Kalunga (Muchinga): Mr Speaker, I stand to support the Minister of Finance and Economic Development for the nice speech presented to the House. In this vein, I also wish to support the mover and the seconder of the motion.

Sir, I wish to start my debate on the issue of HIPC. Mr Speaker, the issue of HIPIC as it is being debated by the Opposition, to me, makes a sad reading.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kalunga: Mr Speaker, Zambia has qualified for HIPC not that it has been intentional, no. Zambia has qualified because of the situation that the country has gone through. History has it and let us not pretend to forget. Some hon. Members of Parliament were there at that time and, Sir, they are still here. There was a Government which allowed the printing of a kwacha because of an issue.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kalunga: Mr Speaker, there was a Government which allowed the usage of funds from ZCCM for any venture in the country and they thought that was the way to run an economy but it was a wrong approach ...

Mr Ngulube: Sichinsambwe listen.

Mr Kalunga: ... and today, Sir, we are talking of HIPC and the best thing I should have expected, especially from the Opposition, was to say sorry for what they did and for not supporting.

Mr Ngulube: Especially Sichinsambwe.

Mr Kalunga: HIPC, to us, is because of the debt that we are in. What is special about not accepting the position that you are in? When you have a debt, it is a debt and in certain circumstances you are supposed to pay back.

Mr Speaker, the donors and owners of the money have given us conditions and for us to qualify it is because of the working MMD Government. We have followed the instructions and the guidelines, hence, today, we qualify.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kalunga: At one stage, we even allowed certain individuals because of democracy who could even say, ‘Do not support MMD Government financially.’ What did that mean? It meant that do not support a Zambian even though he is in debt and we are proud of that.

Hon. Opposition Member: Go to the speech.

Mr Kalunga: I am coming to the speech.

Sir, in this vein, let me also alert my colleagues on one thing: I have seen a lot of good speakers standing up in this House and debating nicely but, unfortunately, I look at this House as a House for us to be debating issues. Some have taken it to be a House of even, maybe, campaigns. They are saying MMD is going to find it difficult to come back, maybe, at the end of this year, that is not the thing. Politics were there in 1964 in 1991 and 1996. What we should understand is that for a person to vote for anyone, it is after a conviction. Politics is only a conviction, but what we are here for, at this hour, is to try to liberate ourselves economically.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kalunga: Mr Speaker, we are struggling to liberate ourselves economically, hence, the issue on HIPIC has not been handled, maybe, at night or whichever hour but during the day. So, we are not afraid about such an issue because we just wanted to clarify the issue, Sir ...

Mr L. L. Phiri: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr L. L. Phiri: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Member who is just learning how to speak in this august House in order to mislead this august House that we are debating political history in this Chamber instead of him debating on this Budget Speech which was presented before this august House on Friday, 26th January, 2001, by the hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development. Is he in order to be telling us of what is not supposed to be discussed? I need your serious ruling for these young men, who are honourables - who have just joined - to learn how to debate issues in this august House.

Mr Speaker: May the hon. Member for Muchinga continue to debate because the Chair knows that he has been here long enough to debate.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear, shame!

Mr Kalunga: Thank you very much, Sir. I think I have just hit the nail on the head. Hon. Phiri is just worried. 

Sir, let me now go to the area of agriculture. This area has been given little attention. Whilst I say so, Sir, I want to bring the attention of the House to what is in history if we are to accept funding agriculture at the right time. In 1945, history has it that there was a Second World War ...

Interruptions.

Mr Kalunga: ... because I went to school that is why I know some of these things.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Go ahead!

Mr Kalunga: In 1945 there came about the end of the Second World War. After the Second World War, the European countries discovered that people were carrying a lot of money just to buy a few food items, hence they called for a conference to look at that situation.

Mr Ngulube: Lucas was not there.

Mr Kalunga: In that conference they came up with an idea to say that since people are carrying a lot of money just to buy a few food items, it is better we go for the Agriculture Revolution and the Revolution was declared after the aftermath of the war.

Mr Ngulube: Mwebeni Lucas.

Mr Kalunga: Why did they start with agriculture after the Second World War? They saw it unfit for a lot of people to be carrying small packages of food whilst money was there in abundance. In Zambia we have not gone through a war situation. It is because of certain mismanagement or misunderstanding, and today agriculture is being funded inadequately. Look at our position today as compared to what happened that time, whilst the people were fighting in Europe, America was watching. Our colleagues are fighting around us and we are watching. It is agriculture that we have to support such that at the time our colleagues reach the end of the war, we are able to sell them food.

America  and the European countries discovered at that time that agriculture was very important. I am just urging the Ministry of Finance and Economic Development to be assisting our Ministry of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries on funding agriculture It is a timely-funded sector.

To this effect, be it a timely-funded sector, there are a lot of areas we need, at least, to work on, just as my fellow hon. Members have said. We need to have, at least, Mr Speaker, proper roads. We need our district agricultural co-ordinators to assist us in building storage sheds.

Mr Speaker, looking at what is on the ground, I even fail to understand the role district agricultural co-ordinators are playing even where real funds are concerned. Talk of Serenje, the hon. Minister answered here, only one shed of fertiliser has been constructed and the district agricultural co-ordinators are there, maybe, just holding seminars.

Mr Speaker, after we have put infrastructure in order, that is when we are going to be seriously debating the issue of supplying a lot of fertiliser to farmers. Let us not forget. If we are just going to rush into fertiliser distribution, forgetting infrastructure, we are going to create a problem. Hon Minister of Finance and Economic Development, our feeder-roads should be worked on this year so that as we talk of fertiliser in our constituencies, we know that fertiliser will come and transporters will not refuse to take it and what we shall produce will be sold, not as it is today.

Mr L. L. Phiri: Finally.

Mr Kalunga: Not finally, Lucas, I am still on the Floor. 

Mr Speaker, I come to the issue of fertiliser. This issue has been talked about a lot, but I just want to emphasise one point. The hon. Deputy Minister of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries, Mr Chikamba, said it is not fertiliser that makes agriculture and he gave us examples to say that there are components like piggery, poultry, fishing and other areas. This term, agriculture, to be what it is, does not mean fertiliser. In my own understanding, I still feel fertiliser is agriculture. I have a reason for that. Maybe, let me start with an example. In us older human beings, it is only fertility of a man and a woman that produces a baby. If we are going to say fertiliser is not agriculture, there is no way a crop can grow in a poor soil.

Mr Shumina: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Shumina: Mr Speaker, whereas I appreciate what my hon. Colleague is talking about, I am very much at pains to understand his definition of the Budget Speech vis a vis fertiliser being agriculture. Is the hon. Member of Parliament in order to come to this House and start focusing on reproduction instead of discussing the Budget?

Mr Speaker: The hon. Member for Muchinga is in order. He is debating the Budget. 

May he continue.

Laughter.

Mr Kalunga: Mr Speaker, I think the hon. Member for Mangango is just failing to get the terminologies which are found in agricultural science or in agriculture itself.

Laughter.

Mr Kalunga: Mr Speaker, I have risen from one fact, if fertiliser cannot be agriculture. It is only in the Middle East where we find the Golan Heights where there are the richest soils in the world and fertiliser cannot be used there. In Zambia if we have to convince the hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development, let us tell the hon. Minister facts about fertiliser. How do we expect even the donors to assist us on fertiliser? They will say our soils are rich. With a point of conviction, I can even invite, maybe, the hon. Deputy Minister of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries to even visit Serenje itself. 

Today, there is no fertiliser and with these heavy rains, the maize, Mr Speaker, is yellow and there is hunger looming in Serenje, come early next year. I was just trying to, maybe, assist the hon. Deputy Minister of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries to, at least, desist from isolating fertiliser from agriculture. It is a component which is very important in agriculture, especially if we have to go on a large scale. The only areas we can say we have to continue using organic fertiliser, maybe, are gardens and, of course, if you look at the population of Zambia today, even in the past, we cannot feed on crops grown from gardens. We are becoming too many.

Mr Speaker, let us just accept the fact that fertiliser is a very important component in agriculture and it has to be given, at least, a priority for agriculture to pick in Zambia.

Mr Speaker, I am still on agriculture. There is the Nitrogen Chemicals of Zambia. That is a very vital installation for us as a Government. On this one, let me be quoted right. I am not saying it is a nice installation for the MMD Government, no, but which ever government that comes. I still look at importing certain chemicals used for the manufacturing of fertiliser, maybe, a bit cheaper than importing heavier fertiliser from other countries. Why can we not support our own local industry? Let us support Nitrogen Chemicals of Zambia for us to reduce on the importation of fertiliser manufactured in other countries.

Mr Speaker, with these few words, I stand to support the motion on the Floor.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mulongoti (Lufwanyama): Thank you, Mr Speaker, for giving me the opportunity to contribute to the debate on this powerful Budget Speech by the hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development.

On a light note, Mr Speaker, I was excited when I saw the cover of the Budget Address because the picture there was about empowerment in a different sense.

Mr Sibetta: Niya matebeto.

Mr Mulongoti: When Zambian women move like that, they are delivering a young lady who is about to get married. If that is the kind of empowerment the hon. Minister had in mind, yes, he achieved that. Mr Speaker, having said that, I am not subtracting at all, from the powerful message contained in this Budget Speech of the hon. Minister. My only worry, Mr Speaker, is that the Budget is quite ambitious. And in a year like this one, all of us are very expectant. I hope that the hon. Minister will deliver the promises contained in this Budget. 53 per cent is expected to come from outside, I hope he has got some other means of raising funds to try and supplement the shortfall.

Mr Speaker, last year, inflation was exacerbated by the fact that the Government was borrowing from the banking sector to try and support its activities. This year the Budget has been increased. The donor support did not come as expected last year. This year, I have my difficulties appreciating whether they will give us all the money we are looking for. I am just giving a timely advice to the hon. Minister to breast himself for a lot of demand because everybody is expecting an increase whether in salary or whatever.

I do hope also that the hon. Minister has taken note of the fact that the domestic debt requires to be serviced. If he can service this debt, there will be growth in the economy and there will be more taxes paid, then you will be able to recoup some money from there to help you balance this year’s Budget.

As a way forward, Mr Speaker, let me just advise the hon. Minister to pay attention to a few areas that could be very helpful to him. One of them like I have said is the service of domestic debt. If he can pay attention to domestic debt the effect will mean something to the Budget.

I would also hope that the hon. Minister can help in the macro-financing. SEDB has been on the cards for a long time. Surely, you have the capacity to resuscitate SEDB. If we cannot do it from our own resources then let us invite partners. With that we do hope that with the Government guarantee some of these small loans to our small-scale industries we should be able to see the way forward. Countries that have come up like India, have been success for one reason. They have propped up a small-scale industry. My brother Hon. Chikwakwa has always been saying, ‘Private sector is engine for growth’...

Laughter.

Mr Mulongoti: I get worried ...

Laughter.

Mr Mulongoti: ... because the voice is getting hoarse. Plead with the hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development so that he can give you money in SEDB.

Mr Chikwakwa: He has given us!

Mr Mulongoti: That way we will see the way forward. 

All that money coming from the World Bank to try and help small-scale enterprises, let us channel it into SEDB. Let us not give them to banks. Commercial banks can raise their own funds. Cheap capital surely must be directed in areas like that, and yet that is the only way we can empower our people. We have these people coming from outside behaving like they are very good at management or investment, they have got access to cheap capital. Let us help our people and not give the money that has been given to us to help the poor and put it in the hands of the already rich. Barclays Bank and Standard Chartered Bank have got linkages where they can raise their money. Let us empower our own institutions.

On tourism industry, Mr Speaker, we have a lot of good attractive places in Zambia. For example, Samfya, there are very attractive beaches in that area.

Interruptions.

Mr Mulongoti: Very attractive sandy beaches.

Laughter.

Hon. Members: Ooh!

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, I am a Christian and when I speak like that my mind is directed in the proper areas. I do not think I would intend to sound derogatory here. I was alluding to the fact that if you go to Samfya, you will find very attractive beaches by the lake. Let us promote tourism by attracting people to visit places like Chilubi Island. Why are we encouraging everybody to crowd in Lusaka?

For instance, the OAU Village that we are putting up in Lusaka could have been sited outside Lusaka, for example, by the Chalimbana River. You would have attracted people to see the countryside. Why are we congesting ourselves? Nobody can tell me that if you held the OAU Summit in Luangwa Game Park or Mfuwe people would not go there.

Hon. Members: They would go!

Mr Mulongoti: Those of you who have been to Arusha or beyond to a place called Tangangire, it is 400 kilometres from Arusha right in the bush. The nearest people you can find there are the Masai. There is no tar road, no telephone but they hold conferences there all the time. People fight to get there. Why do we not encourage that?

Mr T. J. Phiri: Baishiba fye Lusaka!

Mr Mulongoti: To us development is just Lusaka, Kitwe and Ndola. Encourage people to go outside Lusaka so that they can see.

Mr Shimonde: Blue lagoon in Mwembeshi!

Mr Mulongoti: In the evening you can take them for safari to see our game. All you want is to take them to Lilayi Lodge to see the animals there. No, take them out in the countryside so that they can see on the outskirts of Lusaka.

Mr Speaker, on tourism, if you look at the statistics there you will find that the Americans are doing 1.5 billion per day in tourism. What is in America? Mostly it is concrete jungles. We have got a lot of attractive places in Zambia why can we not invest in that and attract a lot of people to visit this country?

Hon. new Minister of Tourism I hope you are taking note. You did very well at soccer we hope you can do well in tourism.

Mr Harrington: That is why I am looking at you!

Mr Mulongoti: I am grateful hon. Minister.

One sad thing, Mr Speaker, is that we have not done very well in promoting ourselves as a country. The last time I visited Switzerland, I was being asked where they could buy a tape depicting attractive sites of Zambia. Zimbabwe, Kenya had and Zambia had nothing. Just a video camera and tape, is that difficult? I do not think you need the support of the hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development in that area. But I do hope you can encourage your colleagues so that they can promote tourism and help you balance your Budget.

Mr Harrington indicated assent.

Mr Mulongoti: I heard the hon. Member of Parliament for Kafulafuta (Mr Matutu) complaining about Ndola dying. Export processing zones, that idea came about a year ago ...

Hon. Government Members: That is going to come!

Mr Mulongoti: You are very good at saying, it is going come, we want it to come. 

Hon. Members: It must arrive!

Mr Mulongoti: When it arrives we will all be excited because we are looking forward to growth from our own resources. What they call organic growth. This question of going with begging bowls all the time, surely it must be very frustrating for the hon. Minister. Encourage those sectors of the economy that will help you to go and bargain World Bank and IMF proudly. Not when you are going to say to them, “I have got 43 per cent give me 53 per cent”. No, go with 60 per cent and ask for 40 per cent.

Laughter.

Mr Mulongoti: Then they will understand that there is something happening in your house.

The Budget has gone up by 37 per cent meaning that the money will be off loaded into the economy. Now, it means also invaluably that inflation is also going to be fueled. I do not know how the hon. Minister expects to bring inflation down to 17 per cent. He has an uphill battle and that I can assure you but cheer up, hon. Minister. What have you done about the gemstone industry? You have it in Lundazi, Kalomo, Copperbelt and in Mkushi, surely that cannot help. In Sinjembela, we are talking about diamonds, that is why you see the hon. Member for Mongu behaving very happily because she knows that there is some news of diamonds in that area. Hon. Minister, if we can invest a little money in the gemstone industry, it should be able to help you.

Mr Speaker, why should the kwacha depreciate when there is so much money coming from these areas. Are we accounting for that or we do not have the capacity to account for the money coming from that sector. If we can do that, you will see that your difficulties will be reduced.

Hon. Minister, like I warned you...

Laughter.

Mr Mulongoti: ... all of us are very expectant and the enthusiasm you showed the day you were presenting the Budget, I hope is the same enthusiasm you will show when we come knocking. This year all of us will want to show that we have done a good job because we want to come back here.

Dr Mbikusita-Lewanika: Too late.

Mr Mulongoti: So, brace yourself for a lot of knocks at your door. Keep your door open and keep talking to the donors. Even if you can talk to them quietly, do that. Do not get carried away by all of us telling you that we will not do this and that because if you do that, we will have difficulties. I know you have the capacity and you have cultivated yourself good relationship with the donors. Take advantage of that but do it with the interest of Zambia at heart. Do not do it with your own career at heart.

Laughter.

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, I was involved with Defence industries and the hon. Minister of Defence, I am sure, is very happy and proud of the fact that one of his Defence industries which is Zambia/China Mulungushi Textiles is doing very well. He has put in a lot of effort and the fruits are beginning to show. It is possible, it can be done. All what is required is determination, being forecast and investing with a view to getting something and not investing with a view...

Mr Patel: Pocketing.

Mr Mulongoti: I did not hear that, Hon. Patel. I am talking about forecast investment where we are doing it for the sake of posterity as well so that our children can find employment and so that our constituents can find employment. 

Most of these companies, why is it that they are saying to us they are not viable but soon as another person comes, it becomes viable. Is it attitude or is it because of lack of support? We have the capacity to try and resuscitate some of these companies that have collapsed for the benefit of the country and our people.

Hon. Minister, I know you are very good at figures, I have no doubt that you like statistics. I was reading through the Yellow Book and quickly I was trying to add what you have given to agriculture. If you look through your figures, hon. Minister, most of the money is going to consumption, very little is going to the core activity called farming. Let us start to turn the tables. Farming is about working with the soil and it is not about seminars, ASIP but getting contact with the soil and so, please, go through your figures and quickly and see in which areas you can help. 

Mr Speaker, I am sure the hon. Minister of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries is very supportive of what I am saying. We should reverse personal emoluments and whatever. Those, Sir, must come second. First, we should get money into the land so that people can have enough food. When people have enough food they even dream at night.

Laughter.

Mr Mulongoti: When they do not have enough food, you will have them opposing us day and night. We want them to sleep for a while we are planning. So, hon. Minister, try to reverse those figures so that we can make some progress. I will say a little more when we come to individual items on the Budget.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mushiba (Sesheke): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the debate on the motion.

Mr Speaker, this Budget is not a procure Budget because it does not reflect the interest of the majority in terms of their priorities. Mr Speaker, for example, I will give you statistics in terms of the area where I come from, Sesheke. This is on a small research which was carried out based on the family size, household income and at the same time food security. It was discovered that out of a family of twenty-five, only one member was in formal employment and because of that, the majority of the people in the rural areas depend on petty trading, for example, sale of vegetables and buns.

Mr Speaker, at the same time the people of Sesheke depend on maize as their staple food. At the moment, because of poor agricultural practices, most of them are buying the maize from the market sellers because it is cheaper to produce what you call second grade mealie meal. For example, a twenty-five kilogram bag of mealie meal will cost about K22,000 while refined mealie meal which is bought from commercial outlets might cost about K25,000. So it is easier for people to buy from market people who are selling at the markets.

Mr Speaker, on average, it has been discovered that an average family of about six would require about K250,000 to spend on food alone. This alone requires a lot of input in terms of agriculture. And because of this high trend in terms of food production, we find that the nutrition of a lot of people in Sesheke in particular has been highly compromised in terms of quality and variety and as a result, most of the families in rural areas, especially in Sesheke do not get three meals per day. For example, 4 per cent only get one meal per day and about 52 per cent get two meals per day and 44 per cent get three meals in a day. 

This, Sir, has led to what we call poverty in the rural areas, especially in my area to a point where people are not able to do some savings in terms of selling agricultural produce and because of that one, there is an increase in street kids. At the same time because of no savings, there is a high rate of thefts in the rural areas at the moment.

Mr Speaker, all these things are coupled with high mortality rates because the nutritional aspect goes a long way in improving the health of a human being. As far as I am concerned, we need to look at that one.

Mr Speaker, secondly, about 60 per cent of the health care clinics in rural areas, including Sesheke, have been managed and financed by the Church. I would like to see a situation whereby the Government of this Republic should try and put in their best to try and forestall the high death rate in rural areas. This is also made worse by a high shortage of drugs, equipment and qualified personnel.

Mr Speaker, if you had to go to an area where I come from, you will find that the majority of the people who are actually peasant farmers are unable to pay the fees which are demanded by the hospitals. Here is a poor person who is supposed to cover a long distance to go to the hospital. When he arrives, he is told to pay a nominal fee for consultation and after that, he is told to go and buy the medicine which is not likely to be found in the hospital. At the same time, when the person dies and the body is put in the mortuary, relatives are told to pay a fee for keeping the body in the mortuary. I think this has been very unfair, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker, as regards education, at the moment, there are about 600,000 pupils who are out of school, but are illegible to go into education. This has been so because of lack of expansion in our education system. At the same time, we have also got what we call as poor quality education which is brought about by inadequate trained personnel. So, I would urge the Government to try and increase the facilities in teacher training institutions.

Mr Speaker, with regard to tourism, although Livingstone, for example, has been given the latitude to be able to make more money in terms of tourism by relaxing taxes, I want to sound a warning that most of the people who are actually, building the lodges for tourism are making what we call temporal structures made out of wood and grass. These are temporal structures which do not actually show total commitment towards tourism. This means that the individual will only be there for a while and thereafter burn the structure and disappear. So, we want to see meaningful concrete investment in the country in terms of tourism.

Mr Speaker, the cost of fuel has actually had a very adverse effect on people in the rural areas. For example, where I come from, because of the state of the road, the buses which go there to carry people have increased the fares almost unilaterally. They determine the fares in terms of the amount of damage which is done to their vehicles or depending on the number of pot holes in the road. As a result, people are failing to move and, therefore, communication is so poor. Sir, we are asking the Government to try by all means to have this effect of fuel price controlled in rural areas.

Mr Speaker, coming to agriculture, the empowering of the people should be well streamlined in the sense that we should try and encourage the Zambians to try and utilise the facilities which exist. For example, if Zambians can be encouraged in the agro-industry to grow wheat so that we can produce flour or cotton so that we can produce textures, or forests so that we can go into timber. I think these will be meaningful ventures which can go a long to try and attain the objectives of poverty reduction in this country.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Dr Mbikusita-Lewanika: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza (Petauke): Mr Speaker, thank you very much for according me this opportunity to contribute to this motion.

Mr Speaker, a budget is a plan and a plan can only be implemented if there is will and resources. Sir, we have a very good Budget and a very good Minister who vigorously presented it here. May I inform the House that the hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development who I would like to congratulate very heartily is now a voter in my constituency.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter.

Mr Mwanza: I hope he will continue to support me and vote for me during this year’s elections.

Laughter.

Mr Mwanza: Mr Speaker, for a budget to be meaningful, the hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development should have some mechanism for monitoring the activities of all other ministries. Without monitoring, we are going to have the same answer as we have always had here of no money. This time, we would implore him to raise money and ensure that those who do not follow the Budget are punished. There must be some sanctions.

Dr Mbikusita-Lewanika: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza: We have heard enough of people abusing the Budget and nothing happens to them. We must have stiffer sanctions to ensure that the Budget is adhered to.

Mr Speaker, I would like to say a few things on health. The Government has done very well in this field. They have renovated a number of rural health centres. In fact, we have had the support from the World Bank to construct some new rural health centres.

Mr Speaker, I lament the same problems that is perennial in our health centres. That is the shortages of drugs. I was looking at the money that has been spent on procurement of medical drugs and equipment. Colossal amounts of money have been used, but I believe that there must be something lacking. I believe there is no control in the utilisation of drugs. Most of these drugs see their way into small dilapidated chemists which have just come up.

Dr Kamata: Is it in Petauke?

Mr Mwanza: Not in Petauke, but in villages and there is evidence to this because I was listening to the radio this afternoon. I hear several people have been picked up in Kasama and a lot of drugs have been found. Can we not do the same in the whole country to make sure that the drugs go to our establishments and are properly used for the purpose of assisting our patients?

Mr Speaker, I am very grateful to the Ministry of Education which has renovated quite a number of schools in my constituency. I would like them to do a little bit more than what they have done because a lot more schools require renovations. In fact, some schools still do not have desks.

Mr Speaker, I do not want to bore you with agriculture. We all know that the MMD has the best policies, but the only one where we have failed is agriculture. We have not delivered. We were asked here to go and form co-operatives which we did and are well established, but when it comes to utilising ...

Mr Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.

Mr Mwanza: Mr Speaker, when business was suspended, I was trying to labour on a point of lack of will to support agriculture and I was just talking about the recently registered co-operatives.

Mr Speaker, I have forty-five co-operative societies in my constituency registered with the Ministry of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries. All of them have certificates. But I was surprised when fertiliser came late. Of course, there was a purported list of co-operatives alleged to have come from the Ministry of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries in Lusaka. Out of the forty-five, only twenty-two were on the list and the rest were denied fertiliser because they were said to be unofficial. I do not know how the ministry could decide to have what they call official and unofficial co-operatives because they have same certificates and constitutions. So, I really need to be educated because the people are very annoyed about that.

Mr Speaker, I do not want to take much of your time but I can only mention that all the roads and small bridges in my constituency are non-existent now. They have all been swept away by heavy rains. So, we need a lot of infrastructure. It will be reconstruction and not repair to get these things back to normal.

Mr Speaker, with these few remarks, I thank you, Sir.

Miss Malama (Chipata): Thank you, Mr Speaker, for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the Budget Address presented by the hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development, Dr. Kalumba, last Friday, who is our resident in Chipata.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Miss Malama: Mr Speaker, may I begin by congratulating the hon. Minister on having presented a budget which has addressed people’s problems from all walks of life. It is a budget with a human face. 

Mr Speaker, I will be failing in my duties if I do not congratulate the hon. Member for Kapoche. I cannot leave that out. She is an addition to the gender balance in this august House. 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear! {mospagebreak}

Miss Malama: Mr Speaker, much has already been said, but as a mother, I am really very grateful to note that K32 billion has been provided as a grant for input packages to ensure household food security to the women folk. It is gratifying to note that priority will be given to female headed household and that the Ministry of Community Development and Social Welfare in conjunction with the Ministry of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries will handle the scheme of this money. 

Mr Speaker, in my constituency, I have formed a co-operative for women in development. It is called Chipata Central Women. I would like the hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development to inform this House how our women will benefit out of this money because a rural woman from Shangombo or Chama will not understand how K32 billion has been given to them. Therefore, let the hon. Minister, who is my cousin, tell this House ...

Hon. Members: Your husband.

Miss Malama: ... how this money will be given to these women. Our women will not know exactly what will take place. It will be a song to them. I hope this money will not be eaten by those people in town. This money will also empower women who are looking after children whose parents have died of HIV/AIDS. Therefore, it will be a great honour if this money can be channelled to each need.

Mr Speaker, it was not easy for a poor woman farmer to have inputs. As we have already seen, fertiliser has been coming very late and even the down payment was not easy. So, it has been difficult for our female farmers to acquire these inputs. I, therefore, once again, congratulate Hon. Kalumba on the idea to empower our rural women.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Miss Malama: Mr Speaker, this year's Budget really touches my heart in the sense that the hon. Minister touched on the deadly disease, malaria. Malaria is a disease spread all over. Removing duty on mosquito nets does not carry weight because right now a rural woman cannot afford to buy a mosquito net. It was better for the hon. Minister to give free treatment to malaria patients thereby empowering a poor person who is right in the bush. At the moment, mosquito nets are for the rich and the poor. There are very few people who are using mosquito nets. But if medicine and treatment can be free of charge in hospitals, really, it will empower the poor person who is suffering. While I agree with the budget idea, may I propose free medication. 

Mr Speaker, before I conclude, I have a bitter pill to swallow. May I know what criteria and help the ministry has given to the Local Government. In my constituency, roads which fall under the Ministry of Local Government and Housing are impassable. My fellow hon. Members who come from Eastern Province can agree with me that the roads in Chipata are really in a deplorable condition. I, therefore, ask the able hon. Minister to look into Local Government and empower it. Right now, Local Government, through councils, cannot pay their workers because they have no resources to get the money from.

Mr Speaker, I want to see this budget put in practice. It should not just end on paper whereby in the long run, the money which has been set in this budget cannot reach the poor person on the grassroots. I, therefore, support the budget.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwila (Kalulushi): Thank you, Mr Speaker, for giving me this opportunity ...

Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Like father like son.

Mr Mwila: Thank you honourables for that. 

Laughter.

Mr Mwila: Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to add a few words to the motion on the Floor.

I would like to thank the Government for presenting a progressive and empowering budget to this House. Before I proceed, I would like to say a few words.

Hon. Members: Dad!

Mr Mwila: When I was growing up in my father's house ...

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwila: ... he told me one thing that if you are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem.

Hon. Members: Changa changa.

Laughter.

Mr Mwila: A lot of people have come and poured their hearts on the hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development. They want him to sort out all their problems. The hon. Minister is not a magician. I have not heard any hon. Member of Parliament say that he has told the people, the farmers in his constituency, that the fertiliser they were given has to be paid for. We have left that problem in our constituencies and we want the hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development to give us more money this year to go and buy the fertiliser and take it to our constituencies. Next year, we will come back again and ask for some more money.

Hon. Members: Yes.

Mr Mwila: In that case, Mr Speaker, we can assist the hon. Minister by first looking at our own houses. How much fertiliser was distributed? How much money has been paid before we come back to ask? 

Interruptions.

Mr Mwila: We need to look at ourselves before we come and pour our hearts to the hon. Minister. This problem we have in agriculture is for all of us. It is not for the hon. Minister of Agriculture Food and Fisheries or the hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development. Unless we work together, this will not be solved.

Mr Speaker, privatisation of ZCCM is almost through. The way forward for this country now is agriculture. Unless we boost our agriculture sector, there will be no future to talk about. I, therefore, as I said, if you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem. I am now offering a solution.

The Ministry of Finance and Economic Development, the Ministry of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries, the Ministry of Lands, the Ministry of Environment and Natural Resources and the Ministry of Local Government and Housing need to work together. There is no need for us to come and say there are vast lands which need to be developed in terms of farms if the ordinary Zambian is having problems even to get two hectares of farm land. So we should go back to the drawing board.

Hon. Government Member: Where?

Mr Mwila: Do we have even enough land? Yes, we have enough land. Has the Local Government made plans to say this area will be demarcated? We have to be proactive and not reactive. We have to plan ahead. Let us make that land available first and foremost so that these retrenchees we have like on the Copperbelt can go to the councils and ask for the pieces of land. Once they have that land, the councils should have by that time repaired feeder roads. Once we have established that set up, that is when we talk to the Ministry of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries about our inputs because no matter what happens even if we have put in so much, there is no truck driver or buyer of our produce who is going to go right into the bush to pick up the produce because he will not risk his truck getting stuck in the bush.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwila: So, we need to do our homework first and foremost.

Interruptions.

Mr Mwila: Mr Speaker, the other issue I would like to talk about is on the Nitrogen Chemicals of Zambia. This is a strategic industry. Why do I say so? If NCZ was capitalised properly, it would be able to produce fertiliser for our nation and the fertiliser would not be arriving late in our constituencies. Apart from that, NCZ is able to produce ammonium nitrate solution which is the best explosive for our mining industry. The Nchanga Open Pit uses 50 per cent of the explosives that are used in Zambia. Of all the explosives that are used, the ammonium nitrate best explosives account for 80 per cent of those explosives. 

So, if we look at our mining industry which we have now privatised, the use of explosives is going up. The hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development through ZRA should check how much explosives are being imported from South Africa. But if we had NCZ working, NCZ would be able to supply the ammonium nitrate to African Explosives Limited thus returning the money that we are losing to South Africa in these inputs. Therefore, NCZ is a strategic industry not only for the agriculture sector but for the mining sector as well.

Mr L. L. Phiri: He is telling you where you have failed.

Mr Mwila: Lucas, listen to wisdom.

Laughter.

Mr Mwila: Therefore, Mr Speaker, I would like to urge Government to seriously look at NCZ as a very strategic industry. The money we are losing by importing explosives from outside is colossal. We would cut that by almost 80 per cent if we only capitalised NCZ. Notwithstanding the fertiliser that it will be able to produce but we shall also service the mining industry.

With those few remarks, I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Ndhlovu (Nominated): I want to thank you, Mr Speaker, for giving me this opportunity to give a maiden speech which enjoys certain traditions and ethics as far as parliamentary democracy is concerned. I hope that I shall take the fullest advantage of expressing myself since I am overwhelmed with joy.

Mr Speaker, firstly, I want to thank the President for nominating me as Member of Parliament together with two others and indeed those who won in December, 2000. We indicate that the MMD has concluded the year on a winning note.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ndhlovu: I do not underestimate the pressure which nominations exert on the President. We are many of us looking for such prerogatives and once you get it, you have to be thankful and grateful. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ndhlovu: I am really grateful to the President, his family and Cabinet for the wonderful gesture of making me Member of Parliament for the Republic of Zambia.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ndhlovu: Mr Speaker, the literature which I have read about parliamentary democracy is that a maiden speech is never interjected but the Chair had already ruled about some short comings that we have in terms of adherence to ethics and traditions of Parliament. So I am not surprised at all.

Interruptions.

Mr Ndhlovu: My other remarks concern the MMD Government, I have been hitherto advised, and this on public record, that there is intolerance and dictatorship in the MMD. And that the MMD has abandoned the 1991 programme. On the contrary, Sir, I have found the MMD very warm ...

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ndhlovu: I have found sanctuary and comfort in the MMD and we should continue to work together to resolve the problems which we have highlighted here in this House for the benefit of all of us.

The third remark concerns Parliament itself. I must say that since I came here I have taken advantage of visiting all the offices around beginning with the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly to seek guidance because I coming here for the first time and I am very happy to say that I have been well received. I have admired the character of the working culture at Parliament and I find it compelling that I should thank the staff working here very warmly indeed. They are an admirable lot and I think they should continue to be good all the time.

I do not forget also that I have received some disapproval from some quarters. I want to say that I have taken note of this disapproval and my message is that I love hon. Members of Parliament in the Opposition, I cannot insult them like they did to me by calling me an unacceptable name.

Hon. Government Members: Shame!

Mr Ndhlovu: I love them and we shall work together, their input as hon. Members of Parliament is equally significant, but my advise to them is that I shall not look back because I may turn into a pillar of salt.

Laughter.

Mr Ndhlovu: So I am just looking ahead ...

Mr Ngulube: Bamuka Loti

Laughter.

Mr Ndhlovu: ... before I tackle the public incentive issues regarding the Motion before the Table, I have one important appeal to make particularly to our European brothers. We have received reports about killing of black people in Europe, particularly in Norway, Great Britain and Germany. I think we should take advantage of this House to appeal to our brothers that Europe knows very well about the problems perpetuated by the Third Rich in Germany and I believe that they are competent and skillful enough to solve the problem.

For those of you who have followed development in Africa, each time a white person dies here, newspapers in Europe have cried and even suggested that we should be invaded because we are uncivilised, we live like savages and so on and so forth and I think this is an occasion that these brothers should check that black people going to Europe go there just like white people come to Africa. There is no difference at all.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ndhlovu: This problem should be tackled now and not in future. I want, therefore, to narrow my discussion this evening, to the HIV/AIDS problem. The HIV/AIDS problem is not new to us and we understand it very well. The only thing that I want to add to this problem is that there are certain things that we have not done properly in terms of tackling the problem head on. What do I mean by this? 

What I mean is that we had the dreaded small pox in the world which has been wiped out because of a sustainable campaign to inoculate, educate and to prevent the disease, but in terms of AIDS, resources end up being disbursed on seminars in towns, because I have never heard of any seminar in a village, and advertisements on television, radio and so on, a thing which we did not do during the time when we had the small pox problem, even if at that time television and radio were already here, newspapers and so on. We did not have these advertisements. The people who were tasked to control the disease went into the field and dealt with it there. This is the attitude which we need to have in tackling AIDS.

We should go where the problem is and address it there. We should reduce on advertising. We must go and address the problem in the villages, in towns and all other places. Sadly, as Africans, there are certain things that we do not publicly discuss. That information that we hide is very crucial in terms of resolving problems. Sex, for example, has gone besides what it is supposed to be. Sex is an act which requires a lot of ablution, just like eating food. If this message is not emphasised, you have young people, not necessarily drunk, but simply excited committing sex and contracting diseases because of the environment in which sex is committed. 

I know from the Ngoni background, a young lady who was taken to the husband was given Chibate, a bath tub, so to speak, which emphasises the importance of ablution in terms of hygiene and so on. If we do not discuss these things, then we are completely lost. This generation will be wiped out. Our colleagues in Europe, the figures are coming down, in Africa, they are going up because of this daring attitude where somebody tells you something which you must change, you question him and you go to experiment. We never experiment with life, particularly with a disease that you cannot cure.

I think this message must be taken very seriously by the Ministry of Health and the Ministry of Education because of their contact with the young generation and patients. We need to work on this AIDS business and ensure that the resources allocated are targeted to the people who must be assisted. Otherwise, we may perish.

I want to talk about poverty. Poverty, hon. Members, is a historical phenomena. It has not started now, it started a long time ago. If we do not define this poverty, we shall think that the only solution to fight poverty is to create employment. I do not think I would debate at that level. Poverty has sources and origins which are different. 

There are some people who have never known poverty; there are some people who have never known opulence; there are some people who have moved from poverty to riches and people who have dropped from riches to poverty. These are the sources which we need as a leadership to address to see how poverty afflict us. We must address the cause of poverty and not the symptoms. Not what we see around. 

How does this poverty afflict Alfred Ndhlovu? Poverty might afflict Alfred Ndhlovu because he has no job. Look for a job for him, you may remove poverty from him. But do not be cheated that all people who are in employment are well to do. There are some people who are in employment but are poor and cannot afford the basic things they need. What is it that we need to do for them in order to fish them out of poverty? 

Mr Ngosa: To do away with tobomutwe!

Mr Ndhlovu: So, we have to make decisions. Either we increase their salaries or give them food stamps and things like that. These things which our colleagues in the western world have done are as a result analysing the issue. What is it that we want to achieve?

Poverty in this country is such that it has been exaggerated and the biggest culprits of this exaggeration are researchers. Researchers have brought half baked information that poverty in Zambia is 72 per cent. Six months later, it is 80 per cent, again six months later it goes up to 82 per cent and so on. This is confusion. You cannot solve a problem if you have unreliable type of research. Research must be directed at identifying the nature of the poverty that you want to solve. If the poverty that you want to solve is that of unemployment, you generate employment. If the poverty that you want to resolve is that of our folks in rural areas, certainly it is not employment, but to look at how they earn their income. So, we have to create a friendly market or we have to look at the price of their commodities. 

For instance, if a person produces so much, can he sustain himself. These are the issues we need to take in the rural areas. You will agree with me that the problem is that we are ashamed, sometimes, to tell our mothers that if you produce thirty bags of maize per year it will not help you, you need to increase your production. Many of us cannot do that. All that we are going say is that the price was not good. You have to ask the Government to increase the price. We have to work these ratios intelligently that if you are in a village you cannot produce fifty or hundred and so on bags of maize, you cannot live. 

So, the compelling thing is that you must increase your yields and find a friendly market. Some of these rural folks produce little that but some people from town have gone cheating that they are going to sell on their behalf and have never gone back to these places thereby compounding the problem which we genuinely need  to resolve. We need, therefore, to look at this poverty very seriously from these perspectives. It is imperative that we resolve poverty but then we must define what it is that we want to resolve. 

In the Budget, K64 billion has been allocated to poverty alleviation. How do we use it? Where do we channel it? Is it going to end with poverty alleviation seminars in Lusaka? No, we must categories that so much will go to civil servants who are less paid, so that, perhaps, the Government can pay them through this poverty alleviation to sustain them. If it is the rural folks, we must look at how they earn their money because I am very apprehensive about giving people free things. People must earn.

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Ndhlovu: We must, perhaps, discuss with market operators dealing with peasants that the price should be so much. Why? Our target is that we want those rural folks to benefit because that money is coming from the K64 billion. We have to work out that.

Some people are poor because they are orphans. And if people are orphans, they are different from children with parents. So, the approach to this group is that we have to build institutions to help them live a better life. Institutions such as borstal schools can help in that respect. If we have 500 or 1,000,000, how many institutions are we going to build? We have to ask ourselves these questions because we have found ourselves in a very difficult situation, but we cannot escape our desire. 

Our need is that we must resolve these problems for the benefit of our country. We are not temporarily in Zambia, but we are here for good and our resolving the problem must be seen in that light. I have seen people mending roads as if Zambia is going to end tomorrow. Sometimes the money is given, but you will find that the people given the job do not want to complete the work. That attitude must be addressed because we want this country to go on and we need to build on what we have achieved.

Mr Speaker, if you destroy anything you build today, it means that you will be building the same thing all the time. So, we should be building on successes. I was told that my speech would be timeless, but then I can see a yellow light indicating that my time is almost over. 

Mr Speaker, finally I want to thank you once again and to reassure my colleagues in the MMD that I do not harbour any feelings that I have come at the eleventh hour. In fact, my joy is as if I was nominated in 1991.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulongoti: Your joy is betrayal.

Mr Ndhlovu: I thank you, Sir.

Mr Matubulani (Kalomo): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me time to add my voice to the debate on the Motion.

Mr Speaker, first of all I would like to thank the hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development for bringing a Budget which is going to help the Southern Province for the first time in the nine years the MMD has been in office.

In the past years we were going to his office asking if there would be a Vote for crop marketing but now I can see that this issue has been addressed and I would like to congratulate the hon. Minister and the entire panel that helped him in preparing the Budget for 2001 on a job well done.

Mr Speaker, I see that K32 billion has been given to empower the vulnerable small-scale farmers and K64 billion for purchases of inputs, K10 for agro purchases - this is the produce, I think for this year, K32 billion will be given to vulnerable groups especially the female headed homes.

Mr Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Minister for this Vote because I think it will not only cover the female headed homes but I think it will also cover the boys and girls headed homes. By this I mean those boys and girls who head homes after all their parents have died. Sir, the majority of the orphans are in the villages. Sir, with this kind of help, there are no two ways about it the Opposition will be languishing in the coming 2001 Presidential and Parliamentary elections.

Interruptions.

Dr Mbikusita-Lewanika: Talk about your party only.

Mr Matubulani: I am sorry my sister, you are not in the Opposition because you are just alone. You go and form a party first because you are just two with your brother.

Interruptions.

Mr Matubulani: Mr Speaker, on fertilisers, I want to report to this House that we are blessed in Southern Province, especially in Kalomo by receiving all the inputs we applied for except that through you, I must report to this House as I said last week, Southern Province is unfortunate this year. The fertiliser that we received in December and January have not been put to use up to now because of the drought which is seven weeks now. I just came back from the village. If you had to go to Kalomo, along Mapatizya Road through Chundwe down to Zimba as you are heading to Livingstone, our farmers are still packing the fertiliser because they failed to use it. It requires rain.

Therefore, Mr Speaker, I want to ask the hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development, the Office of the Vice-President, Minister of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries and the Deputy Minister for Southern Province who I am sure can confirm that this drought is quite severe in Southern Province because we met as we were coming back from Southern Province yesterday.

Therefore, Mr Speaker, we should not be seen to be campaigning because this is the assumption that the Opposition is going to carry. We are talking of life. Our people are going to die. This is an election year. We cannot stop talking and asking because our people are suffering in the village. We cannot wait until the elections which will be held in November are over. We must be a serious society. Our people there will not survive by waiting from this month, January to the year 2002. There is no way that they are going to be able to make ends meet. We expected to have the crops of last year’s season in March, but it is not going to come at all.

Mr Speaker, it is important that the Opposition must expect the realities that we are not going to use the maize for campaign, but we are asking so that our people survive.

Mr Speaker, as regards health, there is a condition which does not apply. We have our brothers who have come to help this country from Cuba. From the time these doctors where posted to rural health centres, they have not been transferred. For them to establish a conducive environment and to be friendly, they should not be staying too long in one centre.

Hon. Members: Aah!

Mr Matubulani: Yes, I am saying so because there is need for this. We need to enjoy equal services. The fortunate ones received good doctors, but the unfortunate one received different a type of characters. So, we need to have them reshuffled.

Lastly, Mr Speaker, I am happy that the hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development recognised that all the feeder roads require attention. I want to refer to what the President said in his speech that the Government has done quite a lot on transport in the urban areas. In the villages, people are still suffering because of the poor state of roads.

So, we need to have the feeder roads addressed. This is why we are failing to deliver the inputs in the villages because the transporters are refusing to go to some depots because the roads are impassable. We are grateful that you have, now, put a vote for that.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Shumina (Mangango): Mr Speaker, the Budget is central to politics. It is the essence of coming to Parliament and it is the wholesome process of all of us struggling to acquire leadership. Hence, when we critically look at it, especially the Budget that we have witnessed, those of us who came in 1996 ...

Mr Speaker: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

MOTION

ADJOURNMENT

The Vice-President (Lieutenant-General Tembo): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House to do now adjourned.

Question put and agreed to.

The House adjourned at 1915 hours until 1430 hours on Thursday, 1st February, 2001.