DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE FIRST SESSION OF THE NINTH ASSEMBLY

Tuesday, 29th October, 2002

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

 

OATH AND AFFIRMATION OF ALLEGIANCE

Mr Speaker: As Members will recall, subscribing the Oath of Allegiance is a solemn matter. As such, there should be no cheering or jeering, but only the appropriate, ‘Hear, hear!’ as a sign of welcome to the new Members. May the Members desiring to take their seats, please, come to the Table.

The following Members took the Oath and subscribed the Affirmation of Allegiance:

Dr Sipula Kabanje

Patrick Bulasho Musonda

Reverend Gladys Zita Nyirongo

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

ANNOUNCEMENT BY MR SPEAKER

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members may already be aware that, traditionally, during the end of the year meeting of the House such as the one, which commences today, the bulk of the business that the House considers, are reports of Sessional Committees. However, that will not be the case this time. 

The House will recall that, during the motion to adjourn the House sine die during the last meeting in August, 2002, His Honour the Vice-President had indicated that the House will resume sitting in September to consider Bills. This, however, did not materialise. This means, therefore, that, in addition to consideration of reports of Sessional Committees, the House will deal with Bills during this meeting as well. 

For the benefit of hon. Members, the House is expected to debate not less than twenty reports of Sessional Committees and, at least, two Select Committee reports.

Furthermore, there are not less than twenty Bills that may come before the House. In addition to the above business, the House will also consider Questions for Oral Answers. 

It is quite clear from what I have outlined that the House has a heavy schedule of business to go through during this meeting. I would, therefore, like to appeal to the hon. Members to be conscious of the time factor during their deliberations and ensure that they are brief and to the point in their debates if the House is to go through all the business in good time.

I thank you.

May His Honour the Vice-President indicate the business of the House for this week.

The Vice-President (Mr Kavindele): Mr Speaker, I wish to give the House some idea of the business it will conduct this week.

On Tuesday, 29th October, 2002, the business of the House will begin with Questions for Oral Answers as indicated on the Order Paper.

On Wednesday, 30th October 2002, the business of the House will begin with Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. The House will consider private Members’ motions, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will consider the motion to adopt the Report of the Parliamentary Select Committee to scrutinise the appointment of the Clerk of the National Assembly.

Mr Speaker, on Thursday, 31st October 2002, the business of the House will begin with Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. The House will then consider the motion to adopt the Report of the Parliamentary Select Committee appointed to scrutinise the appointment of Commissioners for the Anti-Corruption Commission.

On Friday, 1st November 2002, the business of the House will begin with Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. The House will then continue to debate on motions to adopt Sessional Committee reports, if there will be any.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

QUESTIONS

LUNDAZI DISTRICT HOSPITAL EXTENSION

113. Major General Zulu (Lumezi) asked the Minister of Health when the extension of the Lundazi District Hospital will resume.

The Minister of Health (Dr Chituwo): Mr Speaker, the extension of the Lundazi District Hospital has, so far, reached an advanced stage. Already the community has mobilised building materials such as bricks, building and river sand. A project proposal for the completion of works has already been prepared and submitted to ZAMSIF for funding. Also, the project is awaiting HIPC funding.

I thank you, Sir.

TARRING OF THE MANSA/KAWAMBWA/MULWE AND THE PEDICLE ROAD

114. Mr A. J. D. Chungu (Kawambwa) asked the Minister of Works and Supply when the following roads will be tarred:

(i)    Mansa/Kawambwa/Mulwe Road; and

(ii)    Pedicle Road.

The Deputy Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Katema): Mr Speaker, my ministry will not carry out the tarring of the Mansa/Kawambwa/Mulwe Road due to lack of funds. However, periodic maintenance shall be carried out from time to time.

On tarring of the Pedicle Road, my ministry intends to upgrade the road between Chembe and Mokambo to all-weather bitumen standards, including the construction of the bridge across the Luapula River at Chembe.

However, since the Pedicle Road cannot be done without the consent of the Congolese Government, my ministry is, at the moment, pursuing diplomatic channels through the Ministry of Foreign Affairs so that a meeting takes place between the two Governments. 

The House may further wish to know that on 10th September, 2002, Hon. Sondashi, MP, and Minister of Works and Supply had a meeting with the Charge de’ Affaires of the Democratic Republic of Congo in which my ministry proposed that a meeting be held between the two Governments during the second and third week of November 2002. Once the Democratic Republic of Congo indicates to us that they are agreeable to this, we shall travel to the Congo DR with a team of Zambian officials in an effort to have detailed discussions regarding the technical issues of the projects.

I thank you, Sir.

CONSTRUCTION OF A BRIDGE ON THE LUAPULA RIVER

115. Mr A. J. D. Chungu asked the Minister of Works and Supply when a bridge will be built on the Luapula River on the Pedicle Road linking the Luapula Province and Mokambo on the Copperbelt.

Sir, this question has been combined with Question 114.

Mr Katema: Mr Speaker, the answer in Question 114 suffices for Question 115. We consider the construction of the Pedicle Road and the bridge at Chembe the same project.

I thank you, Sir. {mospagebreak}

REHABILITATION OF THE CHEMBE/KALYONGO/KATUTA ROAD

116. Mr J. S. Chilufya (Mansa) asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing when the Chembe/Kalyongo/Katuta Road will be rehabilitated.

The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr Chitala): Mr Speaker, the Government has embarked on the rehabilitation of all feeder roads in the country through a task force appointed by His Excellency the President. The task force, which has already started its operations, comprises Government ministries and departments. These include the Ministries of Agriculture and Co-operatives, Local Government and Housing, Works and Supply, Communications and Transport, Tourism and Natural Resources and Defence (through the Zambia National Service). All provincial Permanent Secretaries have been directed to submit details of roads that require maintenance to the task force. The Chembe/Kalyongo/Katuta Road, which is the subject of this question, will be included in this programme. The programme is ongoing and more roads will be included as it progresses. District councils, in consultation with community leaders and other stakeholders at the local level, will do the selection of roads to be maintained.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Patel (Lusaka Central): Mr Speaker, could the hon. Minister, please, explain what will happen to the contracts given to other contractors for the feeder roads before the edict from His Excellency the President came to give the contracts to the Zambia National Service (ZNS).
 
The Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr Mabenga): Mr Speaker, we do know that there were contracts given before the declaration by the President which are on-going. We are not disturbing those who had begun before the President’s announcement. However, we are going to continue with the new feeder road rehabilitation.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sikota (Livingstone): Mr Speaker, could the hon. Minister tell us the composition of this task force that has been referred to and under which provisions it was put together.

Mr Mabenga: Mr Speaker, the question, actually, has already been answered.

Thank you, Sir.

Laughter.

Mr Tetamashimba (Solwezi Central): Mr Speaker, is the Minister aware that when you cancel a contract, although the contractors have not started working on the roads, it is an offence and the Government can be sued for it?

Mr Mabenga: I am well aware, Mr Speaker.

Thank you, Sir.

Interruptions.

Mr Speaker: Order, Order!

COMPLETION OF CONSTRUCTION OF MANSA GENERAL HOSPITAL

117. Mr J. S. Chilufya asked the Minister of Health when construction works at Mansa General Hospital will be completed.

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, the construction works at Mansa General Hospital are on-going and completion is dependent on availability of funds under the Poverty Reduction Strategy Programme. One block out of the five has already been completed. To date, K190 million has been paid towards the contract to continue with the civil works and only about 80 per cent of the work has been done.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sibetta (Luena): Mr Speaker, I want to find out from the hon. Minister of Health what he is doing with the Mongu Lewanika Hospital whose construction programme started at the same time as the Mansa one which he is going to help through the Poverty Reduction Strategy. What are the arrangements for Mongu Lewanika Hospital?

Mr Speaker: Order! The hon. Minister of Health may answer only if he so wishes, as this question is rather irrelevant.

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, that is a completely new question, but I will provide the answer when the time comes.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

POLICE OFFICERS

118. Mr Muyanda (Sinazongwe) asked the Minister of Home Affairs how many police officers were dismissed between June and December, 2001, on allegations of sympathising with opposition political parties.

The Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Mapushi): Mr Speaker, during the run-up to the Presidential, Parliamentary and Local Government Elections last year in December, the Zambia Police Service, in collaboration with the Crime Prevention Foundation of Zambia and the Conrad Foundation, held various workshops.

I thank you, Sir.

Interruptions.

Mr Mapushi: I am sorry, Mr Speaker. No police officer has been dismissed on allegations of sympathising with the opposition political parties.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Speaker, could the hon. Minister indicate whether the forced transfers of more than twenty police officers and their families from Kabwata Police Station, soon after one Richard Kachingwe beat MMD, was not in line with that question of dismissal. I beg to be informed.

Mr Mapushi: Mr Speaker, I think matters of that nature are rather administrative. I request the hon. Member for Kabwata to come and see me in the office and then we can look at it.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Tetamashimba: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister of Home Affairs if he is aware that one of the Commissioners at State House has instructed the Inspector-General of Police to transfer the chief officers, including the DCIO for North-Western Province. Can he confirm whether this is coming from your office or not.

Mr Sichilima: On promotion.

Laughter.

Mr Mapushi: Mr Speaker, I am not aware.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sikota: Mr Speaker, could the hon. Minister of Home Affairs, please, inform the House whether the directive from the High Court regarding the commendation and reinstatement of the policeman who uncovered electoral irregularities in Mulobezi has been done.

Laughter.

Mr Mapushi: Mr Speaker, I am not aware of that case.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Shakafuswa (Katuba): Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister not aware that the Deputy Commissioner of Police, Mr Mayonda, was dismissed on political grounds? Let us have an honest answer, as this is not a House where we come to play.

Laughter.

Mr Speaker: Order! Do not debate your question.

Mr Mapushi: Mr Speaker, the answer is no.

I thank you, Sir.

SINDA POLICE STATION CONSTRUCTION

119. Mr L. J. Ngoma (Sinda) asked the Minister of Home Affairs when a police station will be built in Sinda in the Eastern Province.

Mr Mapushi: Mr Speaker, a police station for Sinda will be built when enough funds are sourced for constructing office and residential accommodation for police officers. In this year’s Budget, there are no funds for construction of new police stations.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr L. J. Ngoma: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that when the Deputy Minister of Home Affairs visited Sinda, he assured the command at Sinda that a police station will be built this year and that his ministry will be receiving funds in that direction? And if the hon. Minister is saying there are no funds, what is the essence of having staff where, if it is raining, they just have to run to their homes and pack the sensitive material for the police in their homes?

Mr Mapushi: Mr Speaker, the complaint was not formally put to my office, but I am aware, however, of the need to improve the conditions of service in the Eastern Province.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Masebo (Chongwe): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether it is possible that when the residents of a particular area offer their residential homes, the ministry can consider turning those into official police stations. As you are aware, the crime in this country is increasing, especially in Chongwe District. Everyday crime is reported. 

For instance, this morning, a white man was shot at; yesterday, the MMD District Chairman was also shot at and last week some farmer was shot at. There are even several mysterious killings and all sorts of criminal activities in the district and the community is ready to offer accommodation as police posts. Is the hon. Minister ready to take that up, since the Government has no money to build new police posts?

Mr Mapushi: Mr Speaker, that is a very good condition for us to open up a station. I wish to invite the hon. Member for Chongwe to come to my office tomorrow morning so that we can formalise that.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chibanga (Chama North): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister made a statement in Chama when he was travelling with the Deputy Minister of Home Affairs that they were going to build a police station and that the district was given about K2 billion to build a police station and a police camp. I would like to know what is happening since the year is almost coming to an end.

Mr Mapushi: Mr Speaker, generally speaking, there has been plans to improve on accommodation for all police officers in this country. But everything will be determined when money is available and then we will look at your constituency.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Order! Before we move on to the next question, I believe it is rather warm and uncomfortable in the Chamber. If I am right, will those who know how these machines work, please, do something about it.

ILLEGAL FIREARMS

120. Mr Simenda (Mongu) asked the Minister of Home Affairs:

(a)    how many illegal firearms were recovered in the Western Province between January 2001 and July 2002 and how many of these were from Mongu District;

(b)    How successful the amnesty has been on surrendering illegal firearms country-wide; and

(c)    How much money was released for the amnesty exercise and how much was spent.

Mr Mapushi: Mr Speaker, a total of 247 illegally held firearms were recovered in Western Province between 2001 and July 2002 and twenty-two of these firearms were recovered in Mongu, though encouraging the amnesty for surrendering illegally held firearms countrywide still leaves much room for improvement because there are still a lot of military type illegally held firearms out there.

Mr Speaker, no funds were specifically released for the amnesty exercise. The money to buy off some illegally held firearms came from Crime Investigation Fund used for investigations and crime intelligence collection and K200, 000 to unsurrendered firearms. However, it should be noted that some of the firearms were recovered in circumstances that did not involve compensation.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Simenda: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that the crime rate in Mongu, in particular, is so high that unless he puts in money to encourage the people to surrender guns, our people will continue to die in great numbers? The people also live in fear. Is the hon. Minister aware that only two days ago, armed robbers killed a police officer?

Mr Mapushi: Mr Speaker, I am fully aware of the crime rate in Mongu. These crimes are as a result of refugees in that part of the country. I am also informed of the latest death of a police officer. I can assure the hon. Member of Parliament that everything is being done to ensure that this crime rate is controlled.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sibetta: Mr Speaker, the rise of crime in Mongu is as a result of the Minister’s policy of allowing the voluntary repatriation of Angolans from Mayukwayukwa and Nangweshi camps on foot to Angola without police escort or UNHCR officials. Consequently, many people have been killed because of his bad policy. When is he going to stop this policy and allow these refugees to be accompanied as they walk out of the country to Angola?

Mr Mapushi: Mr Speaker, I am fully aware of the effects of repatriation or voluntary repatriation and that, sometimes, these refugees tend to loot on their way back. However, there is no policy to support this kind of repatriation.

As a matter of fact, repatriation per se for Western Province will be done in April or May next year. It is going to be fully funded by UNHCR. It will start from April and last for three years.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kapita (Mwinilunga West): Mr Speaker, as regards the amount of money spent on those that brought in illegal arms, is the hon. Minister aware that there is a serious contradiction? Last year and the year before, police officers at the headquarters actually collected many firearms from licensed holders under the pretext that these were military firearms, but have never been refunded. I am one of those people whom the police got a gun from.

Mr Mapushi: Mr Speaker, that is a revelation to me. I will follow up the matter.

Thank you, Sir.

Mrs Wina (Nalolo): Mr Speaker, regarding the Government’s lack of policy on movements of refugees, I would like to know when a policy would be put in place to regulate the movements of refugees in the country. This is because in my constituency, there are a lot of refugees moving around on permits issued by the Ministry of Home Affairs to look for employment on farms and households. This has caused a lot of insecurity in the area. The proliferation of small arms in the Western Province is a matter of national security which the hon. Minister has to take very seriously. Judging from his reply, I do not think that the Government has considered this as a priority area. I would like the hon. Minister to clarify this position.

Mr Mapushi: Mr Speaker, in the Ministry of Home Affairs, there is a policy for refugee repatriation and not running away of refugees from camps. There is a policy to the effect that when refugees are going back to their countries, there are a lot of things done by the hosting country, receiving country and the United Nations. We want to ensure that when they are going back to their countries, their minds are prepared so that when they get there, it will be easier for them to settle. 

Mr Speaker, for instance, one of the matters we attend to is to provide about UIS$100 per refugee so that on arrival in their countries, they do not find it necessary to come back to Zambia. So, the policy is there.

Sir, regarding the firearms in Western Province in particular, the Government is worried. The only consolation is that there is peace now in Angola. The UN is fully committed to ensuring that all refugees in Zambia who wish to go back to Angola are repatriated properly to ensure that they do not come back.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Shakafuswa: Mr Speaker, as a result of the proliferation of firearms in the country, is the hon. Minister of Home Affairs aware that Lusaka Division, which is the heart of the nation, is not capable of fighting crime because the police have got no transport? To date, nothing has been done to equip them with transport to enable them combat crime.

Mr Mapushi: Mr Speaker, the question of transport for the police is a matter very well documented in my ministry. Personally, I have, on various occasions, indicated that there is need for us to buy vehicles for our police officers.

Sir, the most difficult problem we are facing, at the moment, is the availability of funds to buy these vehicles. I have, in the immediate past, asked my Permanent Secretary to ensure that we buy vehicles from Japan so that whatever little money we have, we can buy many units to ensure that we give out to all stations.

As regards Lusaka Province in particular, police officers in Lusaka are having that particular problem basically because our maintenance sections are not working as hard as we expect them to do. However, when we buy new vehicles, we expect improved delivery of service in this particular town.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukwakwa (Zambezi East): Mr Speaker, according to the explanation by the hon. Minister, how successful has the amnesty been on surrendering of the illegal firearms countrywide, in respect of the firearms which were illegally issued to the MMD cadres during the elections?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mapushi: Sir, I am sure that question requires a specific answer. I need some statistics because that is a new question, which must be asked at an appropriate stage.

Thank you, Sir.

INDENI OIL REFINERY

121. Mr Nzowa (Kabushi) asked the hon. Minister of Energy and Water Development:

(a)    when the shares in Indeni Oil Refinery were sold and to whom they were sold; and

(b)    why there is still importation of refined oil when there are enough stocks at Indeni.

The Minister of Energy and Water Development (Mr Lembalemba): Sir, the Agip shares of Indeni were sold on the 10th  January, 2002, to Total Outré Mer.

The situation regarding importation of refined oil is that with regard to petrol, all petrol supplied to the Zambian market is obtained from Indeni, except for unleaded petrol, which some marketing companies have started selling. The quantity of unleaded petrol being sold is very small, as this product has just been introduced on the market on a trial basis. Being an imported fuel, it is more expensive than the leaded petrol being produced at Indeni since it is charged a high import duty of 25 per cent.

With regard to paraffin, oil marketing companies are importing this product, as the processing at Indeni has been inoperative due to a technical fault. The unit is expected to be back in operation soon and all paraffin will then be obtained from Indeni.

With regard to diesel, BP has been importing diesel supplied to the mines on the premise that the mines require diesel of low sulphur content. Ordinarily, Indeni is able to produce diesel of low sulphur content by mixing the diesel they produce with paraffin. Therefore, since Indeni is currently unable to produce paraffin, it is also unable to produce low sulphur diesel required for underground operations of the mines. We will stop the importation of diesel once Indeni starts producing paraffin. But, the other type of diesel is readily available at Indeni.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Nzowa: Sir, we have only been told some of the shareholders in Indeni as regards part (a) of the question. My question required the whole shareholding in Indeni as at now.

With regard to part (b) of the question, the mines have been buying fuel from Indeni for many years and these oil marketing companies have been lying. I would like to know if the hon. Minister is aware that these companies are still importing fuel when Indeni is stuck with stocks and stocks of fuel that can be supplied locally and they are ‘cheating’ that this fuel is of a certain standard.

Mr Lembalemba: Sir, Total Outré Mer owns 50 per cent shares in Indeni, while the Government owns the other 50 per cent.

With regard to the importation of fuel, we have sufficient diesel and petrol at Indeni at the moment. As I explained earlier on, the only diesel, which is imported, is that of low sulphur content, which we do not produce. I am not aware of any other oil marketing companies importing another type of diesel, apart from the one with low sulphur content.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Ng’uni (Chama South): Sir, is the hon. Minister aware that the pump price of diesel and petrol in this country is very high because Total Outré Mer has made it prohibitive for other oil companies to import crude oil which needs to be processed at Indeni? If he is not, I would like to challenge him.

Mr Lembalemba: The New Deal administration is addressing the problem of the pump price and we have taken many steps to address the problem. I have travelled with my team to South Africa and Botswana to look at the price mechanism in those countries before we can apply the same to our country. We undertook this exercise to learn from them and compare our situation with theirs.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Patel: Sir, is it not a public record that the shares sold from Agip to Total Outré Mer were done illegally because they did not go through the Zambia Privatisation Agency? They did that administratively. So, what is the legality of the purchase of shares as confirmed by your hon. Colleague on your right early in the year?

Mr Lembalemba: Sir, I think that question is contained in a subsequent question on the Order Paper.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nyirenda (Kasenengwa): Sir, will the hon. Minister shed light on the recent increase of the pump price for diesel which was not the same as petrol. Is it because this was reduced by 15 per cent duty and that it was another way of increasing it?

Mr Lembalemba: Sir, I did not get the question correctly, but what I can say is that there is a difference in pricing between petrol and diesel. Some reductions placed on diesel were a result of what was contained in the Budget. It is surprising to compare the reduction in the price of diesel and that of petrol, which did not attract budgetary deductions. There is a difference between the two because of the factors that were announced in the Budget.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Shepande (Nangoma): Sir, can the hon. Minister confirm to this august House and the nation at large that there are times when increases of diesel are made without any announcement and that there are also times when the price of diesel is increased with announcements.

Mr Lembalemba: Sir, I think most of the times announcements are made and, maybe, the hon. Member is not in a position to listen to the announcements. We prefer most of the prices to be announced.

My Government is trying to put a system in place, which will be so transparent that anyone can check the trend and the movement of the pricing mechanism. That is what we are working on. But, it will take a little bit of time for us to put the system in place.

Thank you, Sir.

Captain Moono (Chilanga): Sir, I would like the hon. Minister to confirm whether the exploration of diesel by Naidoo in Chongwe has been successful.

Laughter.

Mr Speaker: Is the hon. Minister aware of such a project in Chongwe?

Mr Lembalemba: Mr Speaker, that is a completely new question. I do not know anything about that.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda: Sir, can the hon. Member confirm whether he is aware that unleaded fuel is ozone and environmental-friendly. And if it is, could he inform the nation when his Government is going to reverse the pump price structure to encourage people to use unleaded fuel for the sake of prosperity for this country.

Mr Lembalemba: Mr Speaker, it is not as easy as the hon. Member has put it because there are some engines which only use unleaded fuel and very few that will take leaded fuel.

Thank you, Sir.

Interruptions.

Mr Speaker: Order! Just in case the transcribers are not following, we are talking of leaded and unleaded petrol.

Mr Tetamashimba: Sir, I was very encouraged when the hon. Minister mentioned the word ‘transparency’. In the last sitting, the hon. Minister of Energy and Water Development informed this House about a company that had been allowed for three months to bring in oil. I think it was Trans-Saharan something. I think a fortnight ago, he, again, made an announcement, through his ministry, that all the tenders that had come to supply oil were rejected and that he was extending the contract to Trans-Saharan Company to continue bringing oil. 

May I know when the hon. Minister is going to come back to this House and inform us why he decided that all the companies that tendered were not fit and why he had decided to continue with that company without informing the nation. 

Mr Speaker: The House is drifting from the question here. We are dealing with Question 121. However, the hon. Minister may shed some light on this particular question.

Mr Lembalemba: Mr Speaker, I will come back to the House with a full statement.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

SITWE/MULILO ROAD

122. Mr Chibanga (Chama North) asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing when the Road R.D. 760 from Sitwe to Mulilo in the Eastern Province will be opened.

Mr Chitala: Mr Speaker, in response to the question raised by the hon. Member for Chama North, I wish to inform this House that the Road R.D. 760 from Sitwe to Mulilo in Eastern Province had earlier been planned to be worked on under the 2002 Maintenance Rehabilitation Programme. However, due to the difficulties in the Budget, the road could not be worked on. The road, however, will now be worked on. It has been put on the 2003 Annual Works Programme for road rehabilitation.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Chibanga: Sir, is the hon. Minister aware that in Chama North there was Nkwenje Ceremony, which started on the 18th and because of the problem of linking the Chiefs from Mulilo and Chibale, these Chiefs, had difficulties going back because of lack of roads? They were stranded at the boma until 28th. So, we need this road urgently so that the Senior Chief can be linked to the district.

Mr Chitala: Mr Speaker, we appreciate the difficulties faced by the people there and this Government is totally committed to ensuring that in the next works programme, we rehabilitate the road to enable the people move freely and cost-effectively.

Thank you, Sir.

Mrs Jere (Luangeni): Sir, why is it that the K2 billion meant for feeder roads rehabilitation in Eastern Province has been sent back? When is the hon. Minister going to send this money back to Eastern Province?

Mr Chitala: Sir, this is a new question. I would, in fact, ask the hon. Member to direct this question to the Ministry of Finance and National Planning.

Thank you, Sir.

KAZUNGULA DISTRICT HOSPITAL

123. Mrs Musokotwane (Katombora) asked the Minister of Health when a district hospital will be built in Kazungula District in the Southern Province.

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, there are no plans yet to build a district hospital in Kazungula District.

Thank you, Sir.

Mrs Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, the MMD Government five years ago upgraded Kazungula into a district. Five years later, we are being told that they have no plans for the hospital. Why did they create the district then if they had no plans? When are they are going to start planning for Kazungula District?

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, there are a number of districts that were created at that time and Kazungula is just one of those. However, it has come to transpire that the desires were not matched with the ability to build infrastructure in these new districts. The planning and budgeting starts with the districts. I will advise the hon. Member that they can start to plan with the district for budgeting for next year and, perhaps, even for the years to come because the building of any hospital depends upon the financial ability and human resource just like in many districts.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Situmbeko (Senanga): Sir, how hurried was this Government in creating a new district when they knew that they had no money to put up infrastructure?

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, I wish the hon. Members were listening carefully. I stated that planning for any facility can start, but it is the ability to match those plans with the resources. So, in answer to this question, when resources are available, certainly, infrastructure will be built in these new districts.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Shakafuswa: Sir, I think the hon. Minister is aware that when you plan, you have to match whatever plans you have with the resources. Why did they go ahead and create the district if they knew that they would not have resources in the near future?

Mr Speaker: This is the third time that kind of question is being asked. I wonder if the reply will be different now.

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, I have already answered that question, but if hon. Members need some information, I will be prepared to come back and provide more information.

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker, for us in Chongwe District, we have taken it upon ourselves, as a community, to set up a district hospital and we have since made applications to ZAMSIF and other donors. Obviously, part of the funding has been promised. What is your ministry going to do in order to assist us when it comes to staffing?  I want to thank you because you have sent us one doctor for now, but in terms of equipment, do you have any programmes to assist such hospitals when they have a shortfall?

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, ten years ago, the Government embarked on health reforms and the issue of health reforms is decentralisation. If the hon. Member of Parliament in the district has embarked on plans to build a district hospital, I am sure these plans will be budgeted for and they will be submitted to the Central Board of Health at the ministry for us to include in the budgeting. The mere construction of a structure does not constitute a hospital. It is for the purpose of the human resource and other medical and surgical supplies that we need to sit together and have these plans submitted to the ministry. That we shall do.

Thank you, Sir.

Mrs Banda (Milanzi): Mr Speaker, I want to remind the House that Katete District, being one of the oldest districts in the country, also has no district hospital. Is the hon. Minister aware of this? If he is aware, has he put us on his plan so that we can have a district hospital in Katete?

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, I think we are drifting away from Kazungula to Katete. I would request the hon. Member of Parliament to see me, but I am aware that there is a very good hospital in Katete.

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

KAZUNGULA DISTRICT SECONDARY SCHOOL

124. Mrs Musokotwane asked the Minister of Education when a secondary school will be built in Kazungula District in the Southern Province.

The Minister of Education (Mr Mulenga): Mr Speaker, the Government has no immediate plans to build a secondary school in Kazungula District in the Southern Province. However, under the Five Year Strategic Plan, which will start from the year 2003, and end in 2007, the ministry plans to build ten secondary schools and preference under this plan will be given to districts that do not currently have any secondary school.

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

GRADING AND RE-GRAVELLING OF ROADS

125. Mr Shepande asked the Minister of Works and Supply when the following roads in Nangoma, Mwembeshi and Mumbwa will be graded and re-gravelled:

(a)    Nakachenje/Nampundwe/Nalubanda Road (No. D534);

(b)    Nalubanda/Moono/Mumbwa Road;

(b)    Landless Corner/Mumbwa (No. M20); and

(d)    Mumbwa/Kasempa road (No. D181).

Mr Katema: Mr Speaker, on Nakachenje/Nampundwe/Nalubanda Road maintenance, my ministry has immediate plans to carry out maintenance grading of the road. Currently, my ministry, in conjunction with the World Wide Fund for Conservation of Nature, is carrying out maintenance of the road.  A bridge was even constructed across the Mwembeshi River on the same road in 2001.

On part (b) of the question, Nalubanda/Moono/Mumbwa Road (D183), my ministry is desirous of carrying out the maintenance of this road. However, due to lack of funds, no maintenance has been carried out.

On part (c) of the question,  maintenance of Landless Corner/Mumbwa Road, there are immediate plans to improve the condition and class of the existing road to bitumen standard. To this end, a provision has been made in the 2002 Budget to carry out a survey, detailed engineering design and preparation of the tender documents for the construction of the road to all- weather bitumen standard.  Currently, the Zambia National Service is carrying out the maintenance of the road through funds under the Highly Indebted Poor Countries (HIPC) initiative. Works commenced two weeks ago.

On part (d) of the question, maintenance of Mumbwa/Kasempa Road, there are immediate plans to improve the condition and class of the existing road to all-weather gravel standard. There is a provision of K997, 000,000 in the 2002 Budget for the maintenance of the road. The Ministry of Finance and National Planning shall carry out maintenance works upon release of the same amount.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

NANGOMA CONSTITUENCY: SECONDARY SCHOOL

126. Mr Shepande asked the Minister of Education when the Government will construct a secondary school in Nangoma Parliamentary Constituency.

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, the Government has no immediate plans to construct a secondary school in Nangoma Parliamentary Constituency. The Government policy is to build one secondary school in each district in the Republic of Zambia.

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Shepande: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that under the UNIP Government, a secondary school had been designated for construction and it was named Myooye Secondary School?  It was then abandoned by the MMD Government. And now the hon. Minister is confirming, it being abandoned by the New Deal administration. Is the hon. Minister aware that plans have always been there for the construction of Myooye Secondary school? Can he go to his archives.

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, I have not been given a question to answer. Rather the hon. Member has just made a statement.

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr L. J. Ngoma: Mr Speaker, I want to find out from the hon. Minister whether he is comfortable to operate in a Government, which is operating like a CNP, a Chimbwi No Plan, with no plan, which is static as far as education is concerned.

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, I said that the Government had no plans to build secondary schools in parliamentary constituencies.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Shakafuswa: Mr Speaker, as a follow-up to the Member for Sinda’s question and as a result of the answer given by the hon. Minister, is the hon. Minister thinking of the children from these areas who are impoverished, cannot afford transport to go to secondary schools and cannot acquire school places at Mumbwa High School because of congestion, being the only high school which Katuba and Nangoma pupils compete for? Is he saying that development can be sustained without education? Hon. Minister, can you be serious.

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, that is more of a threat than a question.

Laughter.

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, much as Government would like to establish as many secondary schools as possible, resources cannot just allow. So, because we cannot raise the necessary resources to construct a secondary school in each parliamentary constituency, plans may be there, but they are not currently receiving that attention.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Matongo (Pemba): Mr Speaker, I rise to seek clarification. We have heard that districts were created with specific developmental programmes at that time. We have heard today …

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Matongo:  I am building a question.

We have heard today that the hon. Minister of Health has no plans for hospitals in new districts. We are now hearing the hon. Minister of Education confirming the same. Can we have a categorical statement from the Government, Sir, to the effect that the status of development of a ward, constituency and district is not in the plans of this Government.

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, that question from the hon. Member does not require an answer from the Minister of Education.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Next question! The Hon. Member for Munali is not in the House. The question has lapsed. {mospagebreak}

COMPANIES DEALING IN COTTON

128. Mr Mwanza (Mkaika) asked the Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives:

(a)    which companies dealing in cotton provide farming inputs or loans to cotton farmers;

(b)    which of the companies in (a) buy cotton from the loanees once the crop is produced; and

(c)    what measures are there to protect cotton farmers from being exploited by unregistered cotton dealers.

The Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives (Mr Kamwendo): Mr Speaker, Dunavant Zambia Limited and Clark Cotton …

Mr Lubinda: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, I wonder if the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives is in order to attempt answering this question. The Chair, during the last sitting, asked him to come and present to this House a ministerial statement on the funding arrangement for the winter maize project in Chiawa. Should he skip that responsibility and jump to this question? I seek your serious ruling.

Laughter.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: That point of order remains unattended to pending the assurance, if that was the case, that the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives will come back to deal with the subject to which the hon. Member for Kabwata is referring. 

Meanwhile, he shall answer question 128.

Mr Kamwendo: Thank you so much, Mr Speaker. 

Sir, Dunavant Zambia Limited and Clark Cotton do pre-finance seed, chemicals and harvesting materials as loans. There are others like Continental Textiles, Amaka Holdings, Zambia-China Mulungushi Textiles Joint Venture which also provide seed only.

Secondly, each company which pre-finances particular inputs buys cotton from farmers who have been pre-financed under the loan scheme.

Currently, the Cotton Act Cap. 227 does not explicitly mention any measures in place and can reinforce protection of farmers from unregistered cotton dealers. The Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives will take this into account when it proposes the revision of the Cotton Act. Measures such as having strong inspectorate and Cotton Regulatory Cotton Board will be included in the revised Cotton Act.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Badat (Mumbwa): Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that Zambian farmers are the least paid compared to other farmers in the region? There are so many farmers compared to Zimbabwean farmers, but get far less. What measures has the Government taken to protect farmers in Zambia?

The Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives (Mr Sikatana): Mr Speaker, the ministry is fully aware of the exploitative prices of cotton in the country and we are taking necessary measures to give fair returns to farmers under the industry.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Haakaloba (Magoye): Mr Speaker, I have listened to the quality of answers we are getting from the Government Ministers. It gives me the impression that there was no handover from the New Culture Government to the New Deal Government.

Laughter.

Mr Haakaloba: It worries me when a Minister rises to …

Mr Speaker: Order! The hon. Member has no question to ask …

Laughter.

Mr Speaker: … he is commenting on current affairs.

Laughter.

Mr Patel: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister says that they are taking measures. Could he, please, explain what measures he is taking. Secondly, does Zambia allow the use of GMO cotton seeds?

Mr Sikatana: Mr Speaker, we are holding consultations with all stakeholders in the cotton industry and we will let this House know sooner than later. It has been found that if not supported; the industry is likely to suffer withdrawals of farmers already involved in the industry. However, I can assure this House, Mr Speaker, that we will come up with an explanation of how we plan to benefit the farmers in the industry. 

Secondly, the Government will not allow any GMO crop in the country and we will come with the necessary statement through the head of our ministry.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Hachipuka (Mbabala): Mr Speaker, is this not a contradiction in policy because when this House was informed of the creation of the Crop Marketing Authority, it was said they were going to be the buyer of the last resort. So, how is the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives going to take care of the concerns over cotton? He has just stated that he is going to protect cotton farmers by subsidising them when, in fact, on maize, he is going to be the buyer of the last resort. That is a policy contradiction. The country is hungry and food is more important than cotton and now he is contradicting himself. Could he, please, clarify Government’s position on the matter.

Mr Sikatana: Mr Speaker, I do not know where the Member of Parliament was at the time I answered. I never intimated that we were intending to subsidise any cotton at all, but rather that we want to get rid of exploitation, which is different.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muleya (Choma): Mr Speaker, I would like to know whether the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives is aware that in Southern Province, there is GMO cotton being planted this season. What effects are anticipated, to the environment, as a result of this usage of GMO cotton?

Mr Sikatana: Mr Speaker, I am not aware.

Laughter.

Mr Sikatana I am taking immediate measures to ascertain whether or not this is true. Once we ascertain, we will take immediate measures to ensure that no such seed is planted.

I thank you , Sir.

Mr Moonde (Bweengwa): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives has made a categorical statement that Government will not allow GMO under any circumstances. I would like to find out from the Minister whether there are intentions to officially inform the nation, through this respectable House, about the findings of the scientists who had gone to the United States and India. We have just heard from the radio about the reports, but we would like to see the report for ourselves so that we can make our own analysis.

Mr Sikatana: Mr Speaker, the Government intends to release the recommendations of the scientists that went abroad and a full statement will be made to the nation through this House.

Hon. Opposition Members: When?

Mr Sikatana: Sooner than later.

I thank you, Sir

Laughter.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze): Mr Speaker, the Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives is on record indicating that the Government has no capacity to ascertain whether the maize is GMO or not. Now, I would like to find out from him how is going to ascertain that the cotton seeds in Southern Province are GMOs when Government has no capacity to do that.

Interruptions.

Mr Sikatana: Mr Speaker, all efforts are being made by Government to put a policy in place, which will be made known to this House regarding GMOs. Whether we will be able to ascertain if what is being grown in the Southern Province is GMO or not, I think in the first place, I will depend on the hon. Member of Parliament that disclosed that there are GMO seeds in the Southern Province.

Hon. Opposition Members: Arrest him!

Mr Sikatana: Secondly, we will be able to get samples of the seed and seek professional advice from those countries that have the means to do so.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter.

Mr Nzowa: Mr Speaker, it is very clear now that the Government has banned the GMO. Now, I would like to find out what mechanism has been put in place, because neighbouring countries like Zimbabwe and Angola have already welcomed the GMO. What mechanism have you put in place to ensure that the GMO maize that is going to Zimbabwe is not being repacked and entering Zambia, or the other foods that are entering Angola are not entering Zambia unnoticed? Do we have a mechanism, at the entry points, to trace or ascertain what is GMO and what is not GMO?

Mr Sikatana: Mr Speaker, with your permission, my ministry undertakes to come up with a ministerial statement on the GMO at which occasion hon. Members can then raise questions relating to the GMO. Otherwise, these questions that are coming up under a question that has nothing to do with GMOs cannot be satisfactorily answered.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukwakwa: Mr Speaker, following the Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives’ statement to welcome the information from the hon. Member of Parliament, could he confirm whether Government will be accepting statements from Members of Parliament without arresting them.

Laughter.

Mr Speaker: Order, order! 

The thrust of the Member’s question goes against the law. Cap. 12 of the Laws of Zambia on your privileges does not allow such concerns to be raised in this House. You are protected by law for what you say on the Floor of this House, but you are not so protected for what you may say outside the precincts of this House.

Laughter.

Mr Speaker: That should be made very clear.

On the other matter, I believe the House has taken note of the fact that, as soon as he can, the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives will come back to the House with a full statement on the subject of the GMO. So, for the time being, let us leave that subject alone.

REHABILITATION OF ROADS

129. Mr Mwanza asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing:

(a)    how many township, district and city roads were rehabilitated by councils countrywide in the year 2001;

(b)    how many of these were in the Eastern Province; and

(c)    when the remaining roads in the Eastern province, particularly in Katete and Petauke, will be rehabilitated.

Mr Chitala: Mr Speaker, I wish to inform this august House that during the year 2001, councils countrywide rehabilitated seventy-five kilometres of city/township roads. A total of 29.7 kilometres of road network was rehabilitated at a cost of US$10 million in Lusaka under the Japanese Grant Aid. About 25.5 kilometres network was rehabilitated in seven provincial capitals and 19.8 kilometres on the Copperbelt. Township roads were rehabilitated at a cost of K20.3 billion.

In the Eastern Province, the National Roads Board resurfaced five kilometres of the Umodzi Highway in Chipata at a total cost of K3.27 billion under the Road Fund managed.

Under the 2002 annual works programme, contracts have been signed to maintain 101 kilometres of road network in Katete and 51.5 kilometres in Petauke. For the rest of the districts in the province three to five kilometres will be selected for each district. The number of kilometres to be done will be increased as funding is made available.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwale (Chipata): Mr Speaker, from the answer given by the hon. Minister, particularly regarding the 5 kilometres of road in my constituency, I would like to find out whether 5 kilometres of road is a meaningful investment or a mockery. Secondly, is the hon. Minister aware that the 5 kilometres he is talking about is a patch on an old skin and that the contractor did a shoddy job, but the Government went ahead and paid him?

Mr Mabenga: Mr Speaker, I am glad that the hon. Member is concerned about the type of work done on the road in his constituency. This is very good and we would really like to have that information brought to us so that we are able to act on it. As regards the distance of the roadwork, we have said, here, that works on the rehabilitation of feeder roads will continue. We shall continue the works and the hon. Member is, again, at liberty, through his council, to put forward the stretches of road for rehabilitation.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda: Sir, I am aware that some of the roads that were done are two roads in Kabwata Constituency, which both Ministers patronise quite often, but they ripped off the tar...

Laughter.

Mr Lubinda: ...that was left by Kaunda and now there is a lot of dust coming from those roads. When are they coming to complete the work there to prevent the people from being suffocated by dust? What they did was to destroy rather than build. I wish to get an answer from the hon. Minister.

Mr Mabenga: Mr Speaker, I do not patronise Kabwata.

Laughter.

Mr Mabenga: I do not. Neither does my colleague. In any case, we have said we are working through the council. The hon. Member for Kabwata is a Member of the district council of the Lusaka City Council. Therefore, if he has such a big worry about the roads in Kabwata or Chilenje – he said Kabwata…

Laughter.

Mr Mabenga: …it will be a good idea for him to bring this to the attention of the council, which is giving us the information.

I thank you, Sir.

Miss Sialumba (Mapatizya): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister how tenders are given to the so-called sub-contractors. What modalities do we use to give tenders to companies that are doing shoddy jobs? My question arises from the fact that a road that was done last year, after two to three months, will have deep potholes and the Government will have to look for money again. Are we giving tenders to people because they are our colleagues or are we looking at their capabilities?

Mr Mabenga: Mr Speaker, we do not look at applications on comradeship basis. In fact, there is always a committee at district council level, which recommends contractors to our Department of Infrastructure and Support Services at the ministry headquarters. It is from the ministry headquarters that, if the amount is within the ceiling point, a contract is awarded in accordance with what the company will have submitted. They have to submit their history of operation. They have to put forward all the documents required to warrant them to do the works. Once they have done that and no other bidder is there to beat that company, obviously, that company will take up the works. 

However, it is important that when Members of Parliament discover these things, they quickly bring them to the attention of the district council itself or the ministry headquarters so that appropriate action can be taken.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Haakaloba: Mr Speaker, I would like to know whether the road from Magoye to Chivuna will be attended to this year because the contractor has been paid the full amount, but there are still heaps of gravel along the road. The road is so bad at the beginning that you may probably get a puncture because of the stones left on the road. Can he indicate whether work on this road will continue because the contractor has been paid the full amount.

Mr Mabenga: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member did come to my office and we discussed this matter at length. In fact, this road does not fall under the Ministry of Local Government and Housing because it is not a feeder road, it is a trunk road and, therefore, it falls under the Ministry of Works and Supply. I advised my colleague to contact the Ministry of Works and Supply. I actually referred this matter to the Ministry of Works and Supply and so he will do well to see the Minister of Works and Supply.

Mr Speaker, as regards the person who did the work, I am not sure about the payments because we do not have the records, but I am positive that the Ministry of Works and Supply will be able to have the records at hand, if ever he was given the money.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kalumiana: Mr Speaker, I stand to be corrected, but is it in order that full payments for these works are made before an assessment of the completed work is carried out to ascertain the quality of the work done? Is it in order? Is it the right way of doing things?

Mr Mabenga: Mr Speaker, there is what is called mobilisation fee. What happens is that once a contractor has won a contract, they will apply for a certain percentage of the total amount due and that is the money that the contractor uses to mobilise machinery, labour force and so on. But, it is not right, of course, to pay the full amount because how do you pay the full amount before the works are finished? That is not proper.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr P. G. Phiri (Vubwi): Mr Speaker, the answer from the Minister of Local Government and Housing worries me and has made me very uncomfortable. The rains are around the corner and the Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives has now and again emphasised that feeder roads would be cleared and maintained before we start delivering inputs. The hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing is now telling us that he has suspended this and that he will be doing it sometime in the future. We would like to know when this will be done. Is he he doing together with what we expect?

Laughter.

Mr Speaker: Order! Hon. Minister are you co-coordinating your activities?

Mr Chitala: Mr Speaker, yes, we are ‘doing together.’

Laughter.

Mr Chitala: Mr Speaker, the normal time for rehabilitating roads is to ensure that all the roads are fixed before the onset of rains. Our plans are that by the end of October, all feeder roads should have been rehabilitated in readiness for the growing season. I can assure the hon. Member that this is how the MMD programme was envisaged. We would want to ensure that before we go into the next season, all roads are rehabilitated and ready for use. 

Mr Speaker, this will continue to be our programme and philosophy in this regard.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Pwele (Roan): Mr Speaker, when will the maintenance of the road network in Roan and Mpatamatu townships going to be taken over by the Government after the collapse of RAMCOZ?

Mr Chitala: Mr Speaker, yes, we shall continue.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter.

Mr T. K. Nyirenda: Mr Speaker, I would like a serious statement from the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing over the status of roads in Eastern Province. We have been fooled here that out of the seventy-five kilometres only five kilometers were done in Eastern Province. Now, we are being told that only three kilometers will be done. I think this is not good. Few weeks ago, we were told that the K2 billion which was meant for the roads had been withdrawn from Eastern Province. Can the hon. Minister tell us whether Eastern Province will be considered for roads development in this country.

Mr Chitala: Mr Speaker, in answering the hon. Member, a total of 75 kilometres of city and township roads were rehabilitated countrywide in the year 2001. Now, for this year and beyond, we have programmed to exceed a 75 kilometres target. For Katete and Petauke, we made a plan that in 2002, we would maintain 101 kilometres and for Katete 51.5 kilometres respectively. This is progress.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether his ministry has any plans to build capacities of councils in rehabilitation of roads, considering that private contractors have failed in this exercise going by many complaints from hon. Members of Parliament and the public.

The hon. Minister said that they have contracted the Zambia National Service to do the rehabilitation of the roads, but we know that ZNS might not have full capacity. Are they also considering building local authorities’ capacities in that exercise? I think that is the only way forward.

Mr Mabenga: Mr Speaker, that is exactly what is being envisaged, especially when we have fully decentralised.

Thank you, Sir,

Mr Zulu (Chadiza): Mr Speaker, may I get a statement from the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing whether ZNS will have the capacity to go round our feeder roads, especially this time. As Hon. Phiri stated, we are in the dying minutes of the dry season.

Mr Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

Mr  Zulu: Mr Speaker, when business was suspended, I was saying that I doubted the capacity of ZNS to go round our feeder roads. Can the hon. Minister make a statement with regard to that.

Mr Mabenga: Mr Speaker, if the hon. Member wants us to make a statement, we will be ready to do that, but if he wants us to answer, we shall answer.

I thank you, Sir.

HIPC FUNDS

130. Mr Mwale asked the Minister of Finance and National Planning what action the Government has taken against officers who misappropriated HIPC funds in the Eastern Province.

The Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Kalifungwa): Mr Speaker, in responding to the question by the hon. Member, the Eastern Province has no record of any misappropriation of HIPC funds. However, internal auditors have been requested to institute investigations into these allegations.

Sir, I must state that HIPC funds are directed towards poverty reduction. This is the more reason why the ministry instituted the HIPC Monitoring Team, comprising civil society, NGOs and the private sector. This is because of the importance of this fund.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwale: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister seems to tell me that there was no misuse of HIPC funds in the Eastern Province. I would like him to point out to me which projects were undertaken using these funds, if they were not misused. Could he illustrate to us. I would like him to pay particular attention to the completion and the quality of the projects done.

Secondly, may I take this opportunity to ask for a categorical statement from the hon. Minister whether it is true that the K2 billion for this year for the Eastern Province has been withdrawn and on what grounds. This is because the directive by President Mwanawasa to use the Zambia National Service did not include the withdrawal of HIPC funds.

Mr Kalifungwa: Mr Speaker, I am not aware of the withdrawal of funds. 

On the question of the projects that were instituted, I cannot give a categorical answer because there are various projects to which funds are disbursed in the provinces. So, I cannot quantify. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Banda: Sir, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what he does to a Controlling Officer who does not utilise the HIPC funds until December when the money is returned to the Central Government.

Mr Kalifungwa: Mr Speaker, there are guidelines and sanctions laid down for officers that overuse or misdirect the money. However, there are no sanctions for people that do not utilise the money.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr P. G. Phiri: Sir, I always start by saying that I am worried about certain answers.

Is the hon. Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning aware that HIPC funds from the Ministry of Community Development and Social Welfare have not reached the intended beneficiaries? Is that not misuse or misappropriation? The funds were supposed to go to a tie and dye club. I am talking of Vubwi Constituency in Chadiza District.

Laughter.

Mr Kalifungwa: Sir, we have different terms of reference as ministries. We have nothing to do with the money that goes to the Ministry of Community Development and Social Welfare. We have something to do with the money that comes from the Ministry of Finance and National Planning. So, if the money that came from the Ministry of Community Development and Social Welfare was misapplied, possibly, auditors are supposed to audit that and give us an audit report.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Ng’uni: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that, in fact, one of the plunderers of HIPC funds in Eastern Province was promoted to the position of Permanent Secretary and has continued plundering HIPC funds? He failed to do the projects in my constituency and there is evidence. We complained about it in this House. I get very concerned when people stand up and say that they are not aware when we complained about it in this august House.

Mr Kalifungwa: Mr Speaker, allegations of that nature are very serious and are dealt with by the police. If there are certain allegations of theft of funds, those details should be given to the police and they will take action.

Thank you, Sir.

CONSTRUCTION OF TEACHERS’ HOUSES

131. Mr Mwale asked the hon. Minister of Education how much money was released for construction of teachers’ houses in the Eastern Province, district by district, and which schools in Chipata District benefited.

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, the following is the breakdown of HIPC funds released to Eastern Province for the construction of teachers’ houses:

District                Amount in Kwacha

Chadiza    225,000,000.00
Lundazi    249,999,000.00
Petauke    249,999,500.00
Total    724,999,000.00

I am pleased to inform the House that the province also received funding from BESSIP for the rehabilitation of classroom blocks, as well as for construction of teachers’ houses in Chipata as follows:

Kazimomwe    K110, 000,000.00
Mburwe    K90, 000,000.00
Kabwata    K60, 000,000.00
Chipembele    K60, 000,000.00

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Patel: Mr Speaker, it sounds very impressive that K724 million was released for teachers’ houses. From the budget releases as at the end of August, you will find that less than 30 per cent of the money that is supposed to go for teachers’ houses across Zambia has been released. Why is that the case?

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, the question I was answering was particularly over Eastern Province. So, I cannot give a very acceptable answer to Hon. Patel’s question.

Thank you, Sir.

132. Mr E.  M.  M. Musonda (Lupososhi) asked the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning:

(a)    how much is owed to the Development Bank of Zambia since 1996;

(b)    how much has since been recovered;

(c)    what the names of the debtors are and how much each debtor owe; and

(d)    what measures have been taken to ensure recovery of money.

Mr Kalifungwa: Mr Speaker, the report on outstanding debts to the Development Bank of Zambia includes details of how much was lent out, how much has been recovered, debtor companies, promoters of the companies and the status of each project, including measures taken to recover the funds.

The document is voluminous; it is over 20 pages. So, I beg your indulgence to lay it on the Table.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Kalifungwa laid the report on the Table.

133. Samukonga (Chawama) asked the Minister of Energy and Water Development:

(a)    how the transfer of Agip shares in Indeni to Total was conducted; and

(b)    whether the Zambia Privatisation Agency played any part in the transfer.

Mr Lembalemba: Sir, this question should have been directed at the Ministry of Finance and National Planning. However, I will try and answer it to the best of my ability.

The transfer of Agip shares in Indeni to Total Outré Mer was conducted in accordance with accepted business ethics within the framework of the Zambian legal system as follows:

i)    The two parties agreed on the business transaction;

ii)    The Government of Zambia informed Agip that they would not exercise their pre-emptive rights in the purchase of the shares;

iii)    The Zambian Competition Commission approved the transfer and the Energy Regulations Board was notified;

iv)    Indeni’s Board of Directors approved the transfer of shares; and

v)    The Company Secretary issued a new share certificate.

With regard to part (b) of the question, I wish to advise the House that the Zambia Privatisation Agency did not play any role in the transfer of the shares. The mandate of the Zambia Privatisation Agency is to transfer Government interest in State-owned enterprises to the private sector and not those already held by the private sector.

Mr Samukonga: Sir, crude oil supplies have been subject to a lot of meddling by certain Government officials. I am aware of the Trans-Sahara Company that was mandated to supply crude oil to this country, but I think it has fallen out now in one way or another. I know that the Government tried to call tenders to supply crude oil. I also know that there are many top Government officials who are busy meddling in the tender procedures. We do not want what happened to the maize tender to happen to the crude oil tender whereby top Government officials have actually been threatening companies that have gone through proper tender procedures with cancellation of tenders. 

Now, what is going to happen if we do not handle this crude oil supply properly, especially considering that the same Government officials are going to meddle in the tender procedures? Can we be assured, as a House, that proper tender procedures are going to prevail and that no Government interference is going to take place in these tender procedures. 

Mr Lembalemba: Mr Speaker, the question was about the transfer of shares from Agip to Total Outré Mer and not about the fuel. I think I cannot answer to innuendoes.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Nzowa: Sir, we are talking about INDENI, which is almost in my constituency. I would like to find out about the Total and Agip shares. Do we have indigenous Zambians involved in these shares? If we have, who are they? 

Mr Lembalemba: Mr Speaker, on whether there are some Zambians who are involved in the Total Outré Mer shares, I think this is a new question that needs further research.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Matongo: Sir, I will stick to the question. The shares of 50 per cent were transferred. If they were inappropriately transferred, I suppose there are agencies that can investigate that.

The cornerstone of privatisation was to empower Zambians by enabling them to own shares in the privatised enterprises. We have not been told about the 50 per cent for floatation. I know the procedure to follow Minister. All I want you to tell us is how and when you are going to float the balance of the 50 per cent shares to illegible Zambians. You must have a plan to this effect with your partners in the new scenario.

Mr Lembalemba: Mr Speaker, the 50 per cent shares belonged to Agip and being a private company were later sold to another private company called Total Outré Mer. As for the other 50 per cent shares owned by the Government, my Government is considering the possibility of Zambian participation.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Patel: Sir, I am completely baffled as to why the Government found it fit not to involve the pre-emptive rights that it had and allow somebody else to procure the shares. What was the logic and reason behind waiving the pre-emptive shares? And, please, do consult with your colleagues on your left.

Laughter.

Mr Lembalemba: Mr Speaker, I think we should understand one thing. When Government privatises any business entity, it is not prudent for it to go back and start meddling in that affair. Now, as I said earlier, Government gave the earlier 50 per cent shares to Agip and the Zambia Privatisation Agency was involved. 

Mr Tetamashimba: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Tetamashimba: Mr Speaker, I stand on a very serious point of order. The hon. Minister of Energy and Water Development is telling this House that the Government cannot meddle into privatised companies. Why is it that this same Government, through the Minister of Finance and National Planning, subjects Zambians to paying tax to help KCM which was a private company?

Mr Deputy Speaker: Will the hon. Minister continue, please.

Mr Lembalemba: Mr Speaker, I was explaining that the Government was involved through ZPA when they were transferring the 50 per cent shares from Government to Agip. When Agip was transferring those shares to another private company, there was no need for interference from Government. Above that, if there was something seriously wrong that might have come about, the Government would have taken a step to see that it was stopped. But there was nothing unusual and no alarm was raised to warrant the involvement of Government.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Sibetta: Mr Speaker, I am a past long serving member of the Energy Committee. May I know from the hon. Minister when the Government decided to allow the shares in INDENI held by Agip to go to a private company, and at the same time transferred the management contract which was held by ENI, the parent company of Agip in Italy. This company was running the refinery and TAZAMA. When the Government decided to allow a private company to take over 50 per cent of the stake, they remained with the other 50 per cent. What happened to the management contract together with the protocol treaty, which Zambia signed with Italy on this subject? The hon. Minister must not come here to joke. These are very serious issues. So, I want a serious answer on this matter.

Mr Lembalemba: Mr Speaker, that is a completely new question. But I would like to say that, yes, the management of INDENI was given to Total Outré Mer at that time. But my Government has made very serious considerations on this decision. We shall come back to the House with the correct position. It will not be long.

Thank you.

Mr Deputy Speaker: The hon. Minister has promised that he will come back to us. Can we go to the next question, please.

PERMANENT SECRETARIES

135. Mrs Banda asked the Vice-President how many Permanent Secretaries have been relieved of their duties since December, 2001.

The Deputy Minister in the Vice-President’s Office (Mr S. C. Mukuka): Mr Speaker, twenty Permanent Secretaries have been relieved of their duties since December 2001. One was retired, three resigned and they are as follows:

Termination of Contracts

1.    Mr F. A. Chalabesa
2.    Mr G. R. Zimba
3.    Mr X. E. Vlahakis
4.    Mrs E. C. Chiyenge
5.    Mr R. C. Sampa
6.    Mrs Stella M. Chibanda
7.    Mr A. M. Kashimu
8.    Dr H. L. Mtonga
9.    Mr O. M. M. Banda
10.    Mr G. S. Akafekwa
11.    Dr. S. M. Kasanda
12.    Mr F. B. Nduna
13.    Major Chibwe Nsakasha
14.    Mr M. K. Mubanga
15.    Dr Garvin Silwamba
16.    Mr B. Nonde (Secretary to the Treasury)
17.    Mr N. L. Magolo
18.    Mr G. P. Nyirenda
19.    Dr Herrick C. Mpuku
20.    Dr J. H. Masinja

Total twenty (20)

Retired
21.    Mrs E. V. Jhala
Total One (1)

Resigned

22.    Mr J. C. Kasongo (Joined politics)
23.    Mr R. C. Mukuma (Joined politics
24.    Dr A. M. Bulaya
Total Three (3)

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mrs Banda: Mr Speaker, I would like to know from His Honour the Vice-President whether he realises that in the past ten years, during our former President’s rule and, indeed, during almost one year of the New Deal Government, the appointment of Permanent Secretaries, the highest level of the Civil Service, has been done from all sectors of this community? Does he realise that this type of action is distorting the Civil Service and that the Civil Service is demotivated and demoralised? Does he also realise that the spillover effects are that the nation is in a state of confusion?

Mr S. C. Mukuka: Mr Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Member of Parliament for the information given to this House.

Thank you very much.

Laughter.

Mr Shepande: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from His Honour the Vice-President if he knows the reasons why those Permanent Secretaries were relieved of their duties. If he does know, would he, please, inform this House. I realise that there are three categories here. There are those who were relieved of their duties, some who retired and others who resigned.

Mr S. C. Mukuka: Mr Speaker, the appointment of Permanent Secretaries is the prerogative of the President.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Kalumiana: Mr Speaker, I hope His Honour the Vice-President will be able to answer this question. How much was involved in this exercise in terms of terminal benefits, repatriation and things like that because for them to arrive at retiring such a large number, they must have worked out the details? So, I would like to know how much the whole exercise cost.

Mr S. C. Mukuka: Mr Speaker, I would like to say that that is a new question.

Thank you, Sir.

Interruptions.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order! I think there are concerns being expressed by the other side. It will help the House if His Honour the Vice-President’s Office can come up with the figures at a later stage.

Mr Nzowa: Mr Speaker, first and foremost, most of the questions that are coming from this side assist the Government to govern the country properly. Having said that, I would like to ask the Office of the Vice-President if at all he is aware that appointing unprofessional cadres to the rank of Permanent Secretary has caused a lot of confusion in the Civil Service and it has frustrated professionals.  I want His Honour the Vice-President to comment on this because this is a very, very serious issue. Cadres are supervising professionals.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order! We have been informed that it is the President who appoints and he is not here. Therefore, if it is a general question on appointing professionals to jobs, that is different.

Mr Nyirenda: Mr Speaker, I would like the Vice-President to tell us the minimum academic and professional qualification that one must have to become a Permanent Secretary and I hope there will be a professional answer as well.

The Vice-President (Mr Kavindele): Mr Speaker, the appointment of Permanent Secretaries, firstly, as my colleague has said, is a prerogative of His Excellency the President. In assessing appointments, some, certainly, come from the academic field or they rise through the ranks and others are found suitable before they are appointed. I am not aware of any particular Permanent Secretary who is ill-qualified to be where they are. If you like, give us names and we will give you the reasons why they were appointed.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Moonde: Sir, I have heard the names of Permanent Secretaries who were retired, removed or resigned, but there was also one very senior official whose fate we have not yet been told and that was the Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Professor Mweene. We would like to know what his fate is.

Mr Deputy Speaker: We have already said, if you have understood me, hon. Members, that question is similar to the question that has already been asked and I do not think that the answer can be given right away. 

Now, if you can, His Honour the Vice-President, do answer that question but if you do not want to, do not.

Hon. Member for …

Mr Hachipuka: Mbabala

Mr Deputy Speaker: Mbabala. No! Kanyama.

Laughter. {mospagebreak}

Mr Mtonga (Kanyama): Mr Speaker, His Honour the Vice-President may not be aware that policies of the Government are entwined and cannot be water compartmented. In this regard, I would like to give a specific example over which he has sought details. It puzzles some of us this side that after the Government promised to re-examine District Administrator (DAs) and reappoint them if they qualify, before the exercise is over, one of them has been appointed to be Permanent Secretary (PS) …

Mr Deputy Speaker: Sorry! Sit down. If you want to ask a question regarding Permanent Secretaries, do ask. We are not discussing DAs here. 

May you, please, continue.

Mr Mtonga: I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Sir, may I know whether the Vice-President is aware that from nowhere without following the Public Service Commission Regulations and the examinations one DA has since been appointed as Permanent Secretary. What has he done?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I am aware of the appointment of a DA to the rank of Permanent Secretary. I am not too sure whether DAs cannot be promoted to ministerial positions. This particular one that the hon. Member for Kanyama has mentioned, as far as I know, is an experienced administrator who has earned that promotion on merit.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker, my question is related to the MMD manifesto. The manifesto talked about professionalism in the Civil Service. Now, it seems that from 1991 to date, we have seen many Permanent Secretaries coming in and going out. It seems obvious, now, that every time there is a new Government, we shall see new Permanent Secretaries. I just want to find out whether this is your new policy that we shall be changing Permanent Secretaries with every new Government that comes in.

I also wish to say that whilst we appreciate that the appointment of Permanent Secretaries is, again, the prerogative of the President, I think it is important that we mention here, that at the end of the day, the performance of those Permanent Secretaries affects all of us. That is why we complain that some of the appointments are questionable because of the calibre of the Permanent Secretaries. I think there is need for the New Deal Government to listen and try to make amends.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: We, also, are aware that the President might not even know some of the people that he is appointing and that they are just mere party cadres. Some of us who live in Lusaka might know that and so when we rise raise such questions …

Hon. Members: Question!

Mrs Masebo: It is a question.

We would like you to come in and make changes if possible.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Before His Honour the Vice-President answers that, the hon. Mr Speaker did make a request about the temperature in this Chamber. It is not because the tempers are high, but it is just a little too warm for us. someone attend to this, please.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I wish to commend and congratulate the hon. Member of Parliament for Chongwe on reading our manifesto. That is how it should be.

Laughter.

The Vice-President: Keep up the good work.

Mr Speaker, this idea of judging others thinking that because we are there, then we are the best is, I think, a wrong attitude. I am aware that even here, there are better people who could have been better Ministers than us. Even there, we are aware that in Chongwe, there are some people who may have been better Members of Parliament than those that they sent here.

Laughter.

The Vice-President: So, the fact that we are here does not necessarily mean that we are the best people for the job. 

Interruptions.

The Vice-President: There are many criteria used in appointing these people. In running a country like this, large as it is, it is also necessary to look at balancing to make sure that you get your best people from every part of Zambia. 

So, for the hon. Member of Parliament to suggest that the Permanent Secretary chosen in one particular place she mentioned, which I do not want to repeat, is below par, because how do you know, he may have passed our criteria for choosing Permanent Secretaries.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter.

Mr Deputy Speaker: We have dwelt on this matter for a long time. Can we move on to the next question, please. 

TARRING OF KASEMPA ROAD

136. Mr Chikoti (Kabompo East) asked the Minister of Works and Supply:

(a)    when phase II of the tarring of the M8 road from Kasempa turn-off to Kabompo will be completed;

(b)    when Phase III of the tarring of the same road from Kabompo to Chavuma will be completed; and

(c)    if the tarring did not commence soon, when the road will be graded.

Mr Katema: Sir, the contract covering the upgrading of Phase II, M8, Kasempa turn-off to Kabompo was signed on 7th  September 2001 at a cost of US$46,754,544 inclusive of VAT for a period of forty-five months from the time of signing the contract. The expected completion date is 7th  June, 2005. 

On the completion of Phase III M8, Kabompo to Chavuma Road, the upgrading of the road depends on the sourcing of funds to undertake the works. Grading of M8 Kasempa turn-off to Chavuma, Messrs Belga Construction Company shall be requested to grade the M8 Kasempa turn-off to Chavuma as soon as the payment for the works carried is made on the Mutanda/Kasempa turn-off and Kasempa Boma Road. The contractor is owed in excess of K56 billion by the Government.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukwakwa: Mr Speaker, we ask for your indulgence, this is a very serious issue. Can the Government confirm that the dissatisfaction in the North-Western Province is arising out of the non-completion and tarring of the roads, and this is what led to the problems of the First Lady not being welcomed in the province.

Laughter.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Katema: Mr Speaker, it is not like efforts have not been made because even over the Phase II, M8 Kasempa turn-off to Kabompo, an advance payment of K16 billion was requested and, so far, K5 billion has been released for the mobilisation. What remains is the K11 billion for them to start.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chikoti: Sir, what measures has the Government put in place to ensure that the road will be passable during rainy season? Currently, some transporters have already decided to withdraw their vehicles from this road because of its bad state.

Mr Katema: Mr Speaker, under part (c) of the question, I had mentioned that Belga Construction Company had already started to do some work except that the work has not yet been completed and that we still owe him K56 billion.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Shemena (Solwezi West): Mr Speaker, the most notable failure by this Government is to discontinue the development of that road. Since Government is owing Belga Construction Company K56 billion, can we be assured that the K56 billion will be paid within next year’s Budget and at the same time, money will be allocated to continue the construction of the road.

Mr Katema: Mr Speaker, we are committed to this project and I can assure the hon. Member of Parliament that as soon as this K56 billion is available, we will release it to Belga Construction Company so that work can continue.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Tetamashimba: Mr Speaker, I think the young man, Hon. Shemena, has asked the question and I must pay tribute to the hon. Deputy Minister for his accurate way of answering questions.

Mr Katema: Thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nakalonga (Chikankata): Mr Speaker, during the Budget debate, the hon. Minister of Works and Supply gave details of how much contractors of major roads were owed and that this year, there would be actually no construction of roads, except for feeder roads which have not yet been done. Now, is the Government going to assure us that they are going to look for money this year to pay off the contractors so that in the coming year and in the Budget that will come next year, there will actually be money to do the road works, instead of continuing to pay the outstanding debt?

Mr Katema: Mr Speaker, the Government is continuously looking for money to finance projects. So, when that money is sourced, then the projects will continue.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Kakoma (Zambezi West): Mr Speaker, is the Minister aware that Belga Construction Company which is working on this same road we are talking about has suspended construction works and may we know why they have done that.

Mr Katema: Mr Speaker, I think I have covered the hon. Member of Parliament’s question. The issue is that we owe Belga Construction Company and they want to be paid that money so that they can continue with the project.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Haakaloba: Mr Speaker, the trend of not doing the roads this year is definitely going to cause hardships. Can the Government assure us that even Mapushi Road which is from Landless Corner to some place in the west can expect some works some time this year.

Laughter.

Mr Haakaloba: I do not know the correct name of that road, hon. Minister. That is why I have called it Mapushi Road and described where it is.

Mr Deputy Speaker: The hon. Minister will correct you.

Mr Katema: Mr Speaker, I am hearing the name of that road for the first time. I am aware of Landless Corner. Although this is a different road from the one that we are discussing, it is Government’s intention to do all the roads in the country and definitely given the resources, that road will also be considered.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Shakafuswa: On a point of order, Sir.

Hon. Members: For what?

NUMBER OF SECONDARY SCHOOLS

137. Mr Chikoti asked the Minister of Education what the number of secondary schools in each province of Zambia is.

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, the numbers of secondary schools in each province of Zambia are …

Mr Shakafuswa: On a point of order, Sir.

Interjections.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Can you allow the hon. Minister to answer the question first.

Mr Shakafuswa: I will allow him after the point of order.

Hon. Members: Aah!

Mr Deputy Speaker: Please, let him answer the question.

Mr Mulenga: …:

Central Province    -    28
Copperbelt Province    -    64
Eastern Province    -    39
Luapula Province    -    16
Lusaka Province    -    31
North-Western Province    -    25
Northern Province                -    23
Southern Province    -    38
Western Province    -    18

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Shakafuswa: On a point of order.

Interruptions.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order! Hon. Members, we have been warned before that we have a very long agenda before us and if you are going to raise a point of order when the Minister who is supposed to have given the answer to you has already sat down, what is the purpose of that point of order? You do not raise a point of order when the Minister or any other Member has already spoken.

Mr Sibetta: Mr Speaker, I thank you for this very valuable information. The Ministry of Education is, obviously, undergoing very difficult times. Teachers in these secondary schools are dying from various diseases. May I know from the hon. Minister, who is my friend, the background to his ruling that any teacher smelling of beer should face dismissal immediately.

Laughter.

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, it is just proper that for a teacher to teach effectively, to command respect, to be ethical and to instill a high degree of morality, he must not be under alcoholic influence in the course of his duties.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out if the figures that were read by the hon. Minister include private schools or they just concern Government secondary schools.

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, the figures include not only Government and grant-aided schools, but also private schools.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker, I would like to know whether the Government has a policy on how many schools each province should have. What is the criterion used in allocating schools?

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order! The hon. Minister answered that a long time ago.

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, until now, the Government policy is to build one secondary school per district. However, the number of secondary schools is determined by a number of factors. Some of these factors are population concentration and, sometimes, because we have a component of private schools, the desire by private investors to set up schools in certain places. There is also the missionary factor because we come from that background. Many of our existing schools were built by different church organisations.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kalumiana: Mr Speaker, I am worried that the determining factors that the Minister has mentioned, particularly the population concentration, is different from place to place. In Western Province, one of the determining factors in terms of settlement patterns is the terrain and soil fertility. Are we going to continue to suffer by having only eighteen secondary schools because of these factors that you have explained to us? Will that not affect accessibility? I am talking about the physical accessibility.

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, I think I did mention that we have the least number of secondary schools in Luapula. It has sixteen. I did say that there are a number of factors, but I did not explain all the factors that determine the establishment of secondary schools countrywide. Since this was a new question, I did not give all the factors which determine the establishment of secondary schools in various places in this country.

I thank you, Sir.

KANTANSHI TOWNSHIP

138. Mr Kombe (Kantanshi) asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing when roads in Kantanshi Township in Mufulira will be rehabilitated.

Mr Chitala: Mr Speaker, the answer to this question concerning road rehabilitation is exactly the same as the one we gave in question 116 and it will be the same as the answer we shall provide in question number 139 on the Order Paper. The answer is that the Government has set up a task force, which is targeting all roads that need rehabilitation. At this juncture, I wish to advise hon. Members that would like to have their roads rehabilitated that, since they are also members of councils, they should go to the councils and decide on the priority of the roads that they want to be rehabilitated. They should then provide this information to the task force.

Mr Speaker, on the basis of that information, which will come to Lusaka, either to the Ministry of Local Government and Housing or to the Ministry of Works and Supply, the roads will be prioritised in accordance with the priorities that are given by the councils themselves. Therefore, the answer to this question is that the roads in Kantanshi, Mufulira will be done as long as the district council in accordance with the rules and methods that we have provided to them prioritises them.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Next question, the hon. Member for Kantanshi again.

Mr Kombe: Mr Speaker, I am very disappointed with the answer given by the hon. Minister because ever since the mine townships were surrendered to the Government by ZCCM, the Government has looked down on them. We have roads that are so impassable that even pedestrians have difficulties to manoeuvre. We want the Executive to visit these areas.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kombe: Mr Speaker, Kantanshi Township does not have potholes, it has mines. Therefore, we want the Government, including our Vice-President, to visit these townships. He should visit these areas. 

Interruptions.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order! Could the hon. Member ask a question instead of debating. In fact, he did not hear the Chair, I called for the next question and so we do not need an answer from the hon. Minister.

Mr Kombe: I was asking a supplementary question because I wanted to find out if ...

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

REHABILITATION OF FEEDER ROADS

139. Mr Kombe asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing when feeder roads in the following areas in Mufulira District will be rehabilitated:

(i)    Murundu farming block;

(ii)    Msiri farming block;

(iii)    Kasombo farming block; and

(iv)    Orasho farming block.

Mr Chitala: Mr Speaker, the roads in Murundu Farming Block, Msiri Farming Block, Kasombo Farming Block and Orasho Farming Block also follow the same pattern. May I ask Hon. Kombe to go back to his council and prioritise the roads that he would like us to rehabilitate and then advise us accordingly so that something can be done. This Government is committed to development and we shall develop this country.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kapita: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kapita: Mr Speaker, I rise on a very serious point of order. Is His Honour the Vice-President in order to smuggle in a stranger in the House replacing my own cousin, Hon. Mpombo, Minister for Southern Province?

Laughter.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order! The point of order is noted.

Laughter.

Mr Nzowa: Mr Speaker, I would like to hear from the hon. Minister if at all he knows that the same councils where we belong ask us to come and fight for funding here because they make submissions that are not attended to. In his answer, the hon. Minister is referring us back to the councils. I would like him to respond having heard our comments. The answers that have been given for all questions are totally unfair. We are people’s representatives. We, therefore, need genuine answers.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chitala: Mr Speaker, I have tried to advise on the procedure for getting resources from the Central Government, namely, the ministries of Local Government and Housing and Works and Supply. If that were not helpful to the hon. Member for Kabushi, I would advise that we have all the time at the Ministry of Local Government and Housing. Just come over there, we shall help you with your council.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Hachipuka: Mr Speaker, I am lost with the answer given by the hon. Minister. I thought this year, there was a budget which must cover his ministry over the roads in all our constituencies. I also thought that there was a procedure, which we approved in this House through the Budget on how we could expend money on the roads. However, I am surprised that the ministry has hijacked the Budget and the procedure. A task force has been set up to superintend over the money the House has already voted for.

In addition to that, I am surprised that he is ignoring what we debated here where the Minister of Works and Supply categorically stated that there was so much money owed to contractors. Yet he is promising postponing the D-day and telling us that there is a task force. He has referred us back to the councils and promised that the roads will be attended to. I need clarification.

Mr Chitala: Mr Speaker, we have tried to be as helpful as we can. There are various forms of resources that go to councils and apparently, it is only through the councils where resources from local development can be sourced. We have tried to advise hon. Members that the district committees, which are in the districts, on which hon. Members sit, receive money in various forms. One of the ways they receive the money for roads is through the Ministry of Local Government and Housing. Another one is through the Ministry of Works and Supply.

Mr Speaker, those who have national parks also get some resources from the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources and so on.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Tetamashimba: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Tetamashimba: Mr Speaker, this being an honourable House, it is expected of us to be honourable when asking or answering questions. Is the hon. Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing, who is a nominated member and has no constituency or district, in order to insinuate that we are members of a task force when we do not even know what this task force is all about or even its guidelines? I need your serious ruling.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Will the hon. Minister clarify that point.

Mr Chitala: Mr Speaker, I wish to indicate that there is no question here. Let me advise that if there is anything else that hon. Members would like to hear from us, we are ready to receive them in our offices and explain everything.

Thank you, Sir.

Miss Nawa (Mandevu): Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister tell this august House the truth that Government has no money. This is because most of our roads, especially in Lusaka, the only road that is being done is the Great East Road, which is being worked on using a grant from Japan. Otherwise, most of our roads and drainages in this city are not being attended to because councils have not been given money. Now, why can he not come out in the open and tell us that there is no money for infrastructure?

Mr Chitala: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member for Mandevu, who was a Mayor of Lusaka, knows the answer. One thing I can assure the House is that whatever money is earmarked for roads is going to the roads which hon. Members voted for.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: I will give the Floor to two more hon. Members to ask follow-up questions.

Mr Patel: Mr Speaker, could the hon. Deputy Minister admit that the budgetary allocations made at the end of August, as distributed in our pigeon holes, show that there have been minimal releases under HIPC for various categories. Secondly, will he clarify the cost-effectiveness of giving road contracts to the Zambia National Service, which the previous Government cancelled. What is this task force? Is it a directive from the top that you are now implementing?

Mr Chitala: Mr Speaker, that is a new question. If the hon. Member wants us to discuss it, he can bring it up in the normal way of asking questions.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Pwele: Sir, is the hon. Minister aware that roads that fell under ZCCM fall under a private title deed and that the council cannot maintain them until there is a Government policy to change this?

Mr Chitala: Sir, I need to research on that question so that I can come back and answer the question later.

Thank you, Sir.

Laughter.

REGISTERED CO-OPERATIVES

140. Mr Masowe (Chisamba) asked the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives what measures are in place to ensure that only registered co-operatives deal in farming inputs, especially fertiliser.

Mr Kamwendo: Sir, in order to ensure that only registered co-operatives deal in farming inputs, especially fertiliser, my ministry has put up the following measures in place: with effect from September, 2002, the ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives, started compiling a country-wide inventory on all registered co-operatives so as to establish the current status of all registered co-operatives; all fake or ghost co-operatives will be deregistered; and the distribution of fertiliser and other inputs will strictly follow the set out selection criterion under the Agricultural Inputs Support Programme.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Matongo: Sir, the rainy season has come. As I came back from my constituency after a month, it was raining all the way to Lusaka. In Lusaka it rained half the night. I regret that the inputs have not reached any co-operators whom we judiciously recorded but are all in situ as of yesterday. I was in Choma yesterday and there were only four trucks of fertiliser. I doubt whether the giving out of the little food by Government will not be the case next year if the seed alongside the fertiliser is not given to satellite committees this month and beginning of next month.

Mr Deputy Speaker: That was just a statement. Unless the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives would like to shed some light on that one.

Mr Sikatana: Mr Speaker, in response to what the hon. Member for Pemba has said, we have managed to ensure that inputs are distributed to district centres where there are arrangements for the further distribution of those inputs to the depots. We do a physical count and check on individual, provincial and district distribution centres. I have personally been to centres in the Eastern Province and Kalomo in Southern Province. 

Apart from the provincial members of staff that we utilise, we are also aware of the movements of inputs through contact with the officers on the telephone on a daily basis. We are only disappointed with the fact that instead of being assisted by the leadership which includes hon. Members of Parliament to enable the officers distribute these inputs, particularly to PAM, we have a problem in certain areas after the arrival of inputs as there are hon. Members who want to change the order on which we had already agreed with the co-operatives as to how the inputs will be distributed.

So, in short, Sir, we are doing the best we can and we are aware that with the rains around the corner, we wish all farmers would have their inputs not later than the 15th of November, 2002.

Interruptions.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

Mrs Banda: Sir, is the hon. Minister aware that the three schemes that they appointed in the distribution of the farm inputs will actually fail the people of Zambia once more?

I have just come from Katete today and we had a meeting conducted by the Department of Agriculture and Co-operatives (DACO). Is the hon. Minister aware that fertiliser is not being administered by Government? PAM is not Government. Africare is not Government. We debated in this House that the system should change from the one that the former Government used to deal with in agriculture. But they have followed the exact system of the former Government. There are 3,000 bags of fertiliser in Katete for free. There are 4,600 bags of fertiliser in Katete for half payment and there are 2,400 bags of fertiliser in Katete for a credit facility.

Hon. Government Members: What is your question?

Mrs Banda: Sir, is the hon. Minister aware that at the end of the day, these schemes that have been introduced will not benefit the ordinary Zambian? I say so because the people have no money to buy that fertiliser.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order! Hon. Members, surely, we know how to ask questions. We are prolonging the discussions. If you can, please, do make your debates short and ask brief questions and to the point. We are in a hurry and we have got a long agenda that was set long before. Can you, please, ask brief questions.

Will you, please, continue.

Mrs Banda: Mr Speaker, is it possible for the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives to cancel these schemes and turn the schemes into a credit facility through co-operatives so that the nation can move forward in agriculture?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, for the first time in ten years, the Government has made available all agricultural inputs.

Hon. Members: Where? Where?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I arrived from Livingstone at 1300 hours today. Whilst in Livingstone, I was able to talk to a lot of my colleagues and all the inputs meant to go to the Southern Province are in the province.

Interruptions.

The Vice-President: Livingstone is where we have an administration centre that our people …

Interruptions.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order! Hon. Members, you are interrupting the Vice-President who is giving answers in which you have an interest. If you are not satisfied, please, do not interrupt. You can do that by raising your objection when it is your turn to ask questions. Please, restrain yourselves.

Will the Vice-President continue, please.

The Vice-President: In fact, Mr Speaker, my colleague has just informed me that as of today, we have 13,000 bags of fertiliser in Choma.

Mr Speaker, there are two issues. One is affordability and availability. As far as Government is concerned, we have made sure that the fertiliser is where it is needed. However, if our people are not able to afford it under the three schemes that Government has put in place that is a different matter. And when we take the fertiliser or inputs to the bomas, PAM whom we pay to do that job are the ones that are meant to distribute it to the primary co-operatives and that is what we are doing. Therefore, they cannot claim and say that Government is not performing. Government has taken the fertiliser there. I am aware…

Hon. Opposition Member: There is no benefit.

The Vice-President: You were almost making a statement, but I think you fail short of it. You were saying that this fertiliser would not benefit the Zambians. This is because we are aware of schemes in certain districts to take that fertiliser from Zambia across the borders. Now, we are saying to our people, please, here is a situation where your Government has performed as per your needs. I know some of our people are becoming unpatriotic by reselling fertiliser that they are getting from Government free of charge. We are very disappointed at that. 

But let me use this occasion to say that Government will take a strong stand against people taking fertiliser to other countries. I must also tell you that in the past, we have had cases where hon. Members with transport were in the forefront of taking fertiliser across the borders. We all know that two of them were arrested. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Name them.

The Vice-President: Dear brothers, take it. I am not politicking over food or fertiliser, but I am giving you a timely advice that should a Member of Parliament be part of the scheme as it was in the past, you will be disappointed. I am giving you timely advice. Eastern Province has all the fertiliser it needs. Southern Province has and Northern Province has also, but there is one remaining area. But I think the fertiliser is arriving today. North-Western has all the fertiliser it needs. The same goes for Central Province. 

Interruption. {mospagebreak}

The Vice-President: I do not want to be rude. I am watching all of you. So, do not provoke me.

Mr Tetamashimba: What about Kabompo?

The Vice-President: In Kabompo, which is my constituency, we have refused relief food. It is against our tradition and all the food that is being given to Zambia has records. There is nothing that has gone to Kabompo because it is against our cultural norms to receive food.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter.

Mr Deputy Speaker: I will give the Floor to someone who has not spoken.

Mr L. J. Ngoma: Sir, following what the Vice-President has just said, there are two issues here. One is having the fertiliser and the second is affordability. It is clear that the majority of the Zambians are impoverished. Government has gone ahead to strangle the already poverty-stricken farmers by demanding K320, 000 from each farmer to access the second scheme. So, what measures has the Government put in place to see to it that these farmers who cannot afford to get these fertilisers have access to them?

Mr Sikatana: Mr Speaker, as the hon. Member is aware, there is a scheme under PAM where inputs are given free of charge to the vulnerable, but viable. Secondly, we have been supported by NGOs that apart from our scheme, it distributes inputs free of charge. Thirdly, we have been supported by the FAO that are further giving inputs for 60,000 farmers further free of charge. 

Now, agriculture is business for the second scheme that is subsidised by 50 per cent. When you start looking on the day you are supposed to buy your fertiliser that is what happens. If one was serious for the whole year to raise inputs, you do not start panicking and say my bolts on my ploughs are not there on the day of ploughing. You do not. In other words, we believe that the scheme that gives 50 per cent subsidy is unprecedented and the Government should be commended for it.

Mr Masowe: Sir, can the hon. Minister make it clear in this august House that the people who are not covered with the fertiliser support programme will be assisted by the New Deal administration in order for them to produce enough food this year. Secondly, …

Hon. Government Members: One question only.

Mr Sikatana: Mr Speaker, in addition to the three schemes, we have been approached by hon. Members here who have organised their co-operatives with farmers that want to do more than a hectare. We have referred them to the Nitrogen Chemicals of Zambia, which has an arrangement of facilities, that give fertiliser to co-operatives on credit and that must go to the credit of the Government. Any hon. Member can organise co-operatives. There is no other way you could do it because right now the Food Reserve Agency has a number of farmers who still owe a lot of money. 

Today, for instance, you would be interested to know that our recovery rates in certain provinces are very low. If you could exclude say the hard hit areas that were affected by drought. But in areas where there was good rainfall, the farmer has swindled the Government because he has sold elsewhere and he says he has no crop. Now, it is this attitude that must be assisted by hon. Members that should organise co-operatives afresh so that they see the need to repay their loans so that the revolving fund can continue to assist.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, if we were to give each one of you a chance to speak now, we would be here until tomorrow morning.

Hon. Opposition Members: We know that.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Since we know that, I will only give a chance to three people -those who have not spoken - to speak.

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo): Mr Speaker, I believe the hon. Minister will listen carefully. 

Hon. Government Member: Ask your question.

Mr Muntanga: Do not rush. 

Mr Speaker, is he aware that while fertiliser may be moved to the provinces, the conditions under which the transporters will move the fertilisers have not been properly spelt out by the ministry and the districts do not know what to do and the fertiliser is not moving away from those points?

Secondly, the Government has said 120,000 people will benefit, the 60,000 people he is talking about would mean 600 for the whole Kalomo District and 200 from my constituency. What is the Government doing because there is no credit facility to the majority of the people who will need the fertiliser so that they will be able to farm and avoid simporting food next year? What is the ministry doing?

Thirdly, what mechanism …

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order! Only one question, please.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, he has indicated that fertiliser has gone to Kalomo. There is a shortage of fertiliser between the Nitrogen Chemicals of Zambia and those receiving the deliveries. What is the ministry doing so that the missing fertilisers can be accounted for without any worries?

Mr Deputy Speaker: Hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives, just answer one question.

Mr Sikatana: Mr Speaker, I am glad the question has been asked by the hon. Member for Kalomo because he, himself, has put forward a proposal where he will be running a scheme in Kalomo and we approved of it and we are assisting him so that he can give credit to farmers that would obtain fertiliser this year and pay at the end of the harvest.

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Sichilima (Mbala): Mr Speaker, some people are going to benefit from the 100 per cent free fertiliser. My worry is on those who will get it at 50 per cent. Is the hon. Minister aware that already the well-to-do are taking advantage of that facility and buying that fertiliser for their own benefit?

Mr Sikatana: Mr Speaker, that is what the Vice-President was stressing, and some of these people that we are now tracing are honourable. Yes, we are sorry we are coming across a situation where fertilizer, in certain regions, is being re-packed in unlabelled bags and being shipped across borders. We are very much aware of this. What we are doing is that we are moving the police to any market to make sure that nobody shall deal in any fertiliser unless it is an authorised co-operative or it is for the benefit of Zambians. Anybody who will be found shipping fertiliser out will be visited by the law.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Shumina (Mangango): Mr Speaker, there is no seed in the Western Province. That is where I am coming from. Take note of that. 

Mr Speaker, may the hon. Minister explain why the people of Zambia are crying and begging for relief food everyday. At the same time, the same Government that is giving them relief food is demanding K320, 000 to enable them plough one hectare. Does he not see the contradiction?

Mr Sikatana: Mr Speaker, I wish the hon. Member had given further and better particulars about this K320, 000, where you hire equipment from the Zambia National Service. If I have understood him, he is asking why are we giving such expenses.

Interruptions.

Mr Sikatana: I am being told to resign because I have failed. 

Before I was interrupted, Mr Speaker, I was saying to the hon. Member for Mangango that the seed is on the way because today I spoke to the District Administrators of Sesheke and Kaoma, and I spoke to the DACOS of those two districts. In order to prove that these things are moving, we sometimes put farmers on the truck to ensure delivery because some of this fertiliser is now being diverted to other regions. If you contact Kaoma today, you will be surprised that soon after you left, the inputs started arriving.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Let us go to the next question.

SHIKABETA AND THE COPPERBELT PROVINCE

141. Mr Kayaba (Rufunsa) asked the Minister of Works and Supply whether the Government has any plans of constructing a road to link Shikabeta in Lusaka Province to the Copperbelt Province.

Mr Katema: Mr Speaker, the Zambia National Service is doing the road from the Great East Road to Shikabeta. The Provincial Roads Engineer who is supervising the works has already paid K370 million to the Zambia National Service who are on the ground. As at now, embankment forming and re-graveling of the road and construction of the two bridges up to Shikabeta have been done. Next year, if funds allow, they will go up to Lunsemfwa River as they are using HIPC funds. So, it is being done in phases.

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

DAMS AND BOREHOLES

142. Mr Mudenda (Dundumwenzi) asked the Minister of Energy and Water Development:

(a)    how many dams and boreholes were in the following Parliamentary Constituencies as at 31st July, 2002:

(i)    Mapatizya;
(ii)    Kalomo Central; and
(iii)    Dundumwenzi; and

(b)    when dams and boreholes will be constructed in Chief Chikanta’s area in the Southern Province.

Mr Lembalemba: Mr Speaker, the following are numbers of dams and boreholes in the respective constituencies:

    Constituency            Dams            Boreholes

    Mapatizya            42                133
    Kalomo Central            76                116
    Dundumwenzi              5                258

So far, there were five boreholes drilled in Chief Chikanta’s area between 2001 and 2002.

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours

Mr Lembalemba: Mr Speaker, when business was suspended, I was answering part (b) of the question and I said that so far, there were five boreholes drilled in Chief Chikanta’s areas between 2001 and 2002. However, out of the five, only two were successful. One is yet to be drilled at Nkandanzovu Clinic this year. The two successful boreholes are at Chikanta and Nkandanzovu School. 

As regards the construction of dams, consideration will be given when funds are available.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mudenda: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that five dams ascribed to Dundumwenzi were constructed a very long time ago and that almost all of them have silted their spill ways almost run out? What measures are put in place to rehabilitate them and also construct some more? Dundumwenzi is the largest of the three constituencies in Kalomo District and one of the former Vice-Presidents had promised that constituency ten dams, but none of them has been constructed so far. What do you have to say?

Mr Lembalemba: Mr Speaker, we have a programme in the ministry of de-silting dams. All I can advise the hon. Member of Parliament is to come over to the ministry so that we can discuss over his dams which need some rehabilitation.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Zulu: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether he cannot revisit the old system of digging wells because when I look at the project of sinking boreholes, it is quite expensive and we cannot easily go round the country. Why can we not revisit wells? We can easily go to every village and dig wells.

Mr Lembalemba: Mr Speaker, the problem with wells is that once they are dug, they do not take long before they dry up. That is why we have been concentrating on boreholes. We also have a programme where we are digging these wells. But one thing I would like to tell this august House is that the demand for water is so much that it is not commensurate with the funds we are receiving. Funds permitting, we can do a lot. We understand that without water, we cannot do our agriculture. So, it is a problem that is very close to our hearts. With funds, we can do a lot. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister said that there are seventy-six dams in Kalomo District. Is he sending people to check the actual facts on those dams? I know that there were some approvals, which I can give him name by name and no dam was constructed and that there are only about sixteen dams? Is he sending people to verify the figures he has actually given us here?

Mr Lembalemba: Mr Speaker, if the hon. Member of Parliament is disputing that there are seventy-six dams in Kalomo District, there is no problem, I can tomorrow instruct my Director of Water to go and check. That is the only thing we can do.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Ng’uni: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister of Energy and Water Development aware that from time immemorial, Chama has had no dam whatsoever? If he is aware, what is he thinking about Chama, a forgotten place or something?

Mr Lembalemba: Mr Speaker, the question I have before me is about Mapatizya, Kalomo and Dundumwenzi. Therefore, I think that is a new question.

Thank you, Sir.

Miss Sialumba: Mr Speaker, since the hon. Minister says he is only concentrating on three constituencies that fall under Kalomo, is he aware that much as we appreciate the number of boreholes that his ministry has been able to sink, very few of them are able to give us the water that we require? And having said so, what is the hon. Minister going to do about it? We have just realised that these boreholes have been sank at a wrong time altogether. You cannot sink a borehole when there are rains. The depth of the borehole would be much shallower as opposed to sinking a borehole sometime in August when you have a dry spell. So, what is the hon. Minister doing about this?

Mr Lembalemba: Mr Speaker, I do agree with the hon. Member concerning the condition of dams. Most of these dams were dug a long time ago and the level of silting is very high. Funds permitting, we can revisit most of these dams and boreholes, but I would like the involvement of our hon. Members of Parliament to come to the ministry and let us know the condition of their dams and boreholes. 

As for the boreholes, it is not that the boreholes were badly done, it is the level of ground water which has become very low due to drought and this is the problem that we are facing.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Haakaloba: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that in Magoye Constituency most of the dams have big trees growing in the middle of them and they are not able to receive water even from the rain? Some commercial farmers have blocked the dams, which have been there without keeping water for the local people.

Mr Lembalemba: Mr Speaker, as I said earlier on, the condition of most of the dams in the country is not the same as they were when they were dug. My advice, as I have said before, is if the hon. Members of Parliament are aware of some dams, which are not conducive to receive water, they are advised to go to the Provincial Water Engineer and report to him. He will then report to my ministry. If possible they can just come to my ministry and let me know about the dams that have these problems.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker, from the hon. Minister’s response, earlier on, on the number of dams in the constituencies under question, it seems to me that Southern Province is really benefiting a lot from this New Deal Government. My question is …

Hon. Members: No!

Mrs Masebo: What is your problem? The number of dams indicated shows that you are getting more dams.

Laughter.

Mrs Masebo: You are so sensitive to the “New Deal”. 

I just want to find out whether you also have a programme to ensure water supply to areas like Chongwe, where water levels have gone down completely and people have to travel long distances to find water. These people are sharing water with animals. 

What programme do you have to help us construct some dams? If you do have that programme, you must ensure that councils are consulted before constructing dams. I have heard rumours that some dams are being constructed in the area without the council’s knowledge. Some are being constructed on Chongwe River, which is a very sensitive river because the rural population uses it.

Mr Lembalemba: Sir, I agree with the hon. Member of Parliament for Chongwe that Southern Province has benefited a lot. I think credit should be given where it is due.

We are doing this because …

Mr Muntanga: On a point of order, Sir.

Hon. Members: Aah! Iwe!

Mr Lembalemba: … we want the glory that Southern Province enjoyed to return to it.

The Deputy Chairman: A point of order is raised.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, is the Minister in order to begin stating that Southern Province is a beneficiary of dams when he knows that that place is a drought-stricken area without water and that this present Government has not helped even after they declared Southern Province a disaster area? Is he in order?

The Deputy Chairman: Will the hon. Minister of Energy and Water Development continue, please.

Mr Lembalemba: Sir, before the point of order was raised, I was saying that we want to bring back the glory to Southern Province. It was the breadbasket of Zambia together with Eastern and Central provinces. Because of the drought, it has been imperative for us to drill more boreholes and dams there so that they can continue producing more food. That is the main reason. 

There is a programme in place for the other areas of the country of digging dams or in areas where we had some dams and have been silted, we want to silt them so that they can receive more water. This programme is not peculiar to Southern Province but is country-wide. 

As I said earlier on, if there is a place where you think you can have a dam, which can be used by the people around that area for farming purposes, please, come to the ministry and see the Director of Water and we can see what could be done.

I thank you, Sir.

The Deputy Chairman: We move on to…

Mr Lembalemba: Sorry, Mr Speaker. People think that everything to do with water falls under the Ministry of Energy and Water Development, but there are some areas that fall under the Ministry of Local Government and Housing and others that fall under the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives. So, we should find out where the boundaries lie as far as the water problem is concerned.

I thank you, Sir.

Interruptions.

COMPLETION OF GWEMBE TONGA RURAL ELECTRIFICATION PROJECT

143. Mr Ntundu (Gwembe) asked the Ministry of Energy and Water Development:

(a)    when the Gwembe Tonga Rural Electrification Project will be completed; and

(b)    how much money is required to complete the project.

Mr Lembalemba: Mr Speaker, due to delays in the effectiveness of the credit from the Development Bank of Southern Africa (DBSA) and the discovery of landmines in the area, the actual implementation of the project has been delayed. However, discussions have been initiated with financiers to extend the period of project completion to 2005.

The estimated cost of electrifying the Gwembe Tonga area is K12.6 billion. So far, my ministry has released K2 billion.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Ntundu: Mr Speaker, I am sure the hon. Minister is aware that the prime objective of the introduction of the Gwembe Tonga Development Project was to compensate the people of Gwembe who were displaced during the construction of the Kariba Dam. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether he is aware that at this particular time ZESCO is not giving power to the beneficiaries and is also asking for capital contributions from the beneficiaries. Is the Minister aware? If he is aware, what is he doing about it? 

Mr Lembalemba: Mr Speaker, we all know the concept under which this programme has been put in place. It is truly to compensate our brothers and sisters who were displaced. I fail to understand the notion that ZESCO is asking people to pay because this is a facility that has been put in place to compensate the people. How can we then ask them to pay? That is very strange. All I can say for now is that give me time research and I will come back to the House.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Patel: Mr Speaker, as the previous Member of Parliament said, this was in compensation to the people after building the Kariba Dam. This promise was made in 1954, a year after I was born. It is now forty-eight years and the project has only reached - I have an interest as you know in that area - what is now known as Sandy Beach. It has not even reached Gwena Island. In other words, it has probably reached from this House to Kafue round about and that cannot be called progress. Could the hon. Minister, therefore, ensure, or have a task force to ensure, as it seems to be your current practice, that something serious is done about this.

Secondly, the original funding was supposed to have come from the World Bank.  When did it change to the Development Bank of Southern Africa?

Mr Lembalemba: Mr Speaker, shortly after being appointed Minister of Energy and Water Development, I undertook a trip to look at this project. I am surprised that what the hon. Member of Parliament is saying is very different from what is on the ground.

Mr Patel: I also saw it!

Mr Lembalemba: The main constraint the project has faced is that of landmines. The de-mining exercise has been ongoing and has almost come to an end. We must give credit to the people who have been de-mining this area.

There are so many things that have been done in that area apart from the power. Boreholes have been dug and a lot of other things have been put in place.

The hon. Member is saying that initially it was supposed to be the World Bank to finance the project, but now it is the African Development Bank. I am not aware of that. All I can say is that we are dealing with the Development Bank of Southern Africa as the bank that is financing this project.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nakalonga: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister about the people doing surveys around the dam. I am a neighbour to Siavonga where the dam is situated. These surveyors have been putting marks, at times, in the middle of homesteads without explaining what these marks are for. The people do not know whether these are for roads from the valley to the plateau or for power lines to the main grid.

Mr Speaker, when you ask them, they are very rude and simply say, ‘Go and ask your Government to explain what it is.’ The problem is that Zesco has not explained what the marks are for. The people are worried that, again, there will be displacement of people from these villages.

The Deputy Chairman: Order! Hon. Member, what is your question?

Mr Nakalonga: Mr Speaker, the people would like to know what survey marks on the plateau are intended for.

Mr Lembalemba: Mr Speaker, when there is an exercise of surveying and beacons are put up, it is a sign of some construction of some kind or the other. I do not personally think that this Government is thinking of extending the dam. I think sometime back there was a question on the Floor of the House where someone wanted to find out whether there were plans to extend the dam or not and we said that we were not extending the dam. So, all the beacons you have seen, my brother, are for development, either for construction of a road or for power lines.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Muyanda: Mr Speaker, I thank you. I have not caught your eye since this morning.

Hon. Member: You spoke!

Laughter.

Mr Muyanda: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that the people who were displaced are bitter that approval of electrification of Gwembe/Tonga is being done in Livingstone and not in areas like Sinazongwe and Sinazeze where electricity is generated?

Mr Lembalemba: Mr Speaker, for administrative purposes, the offices could be there, but there is nothing wrong with my brother coming through to my ministry to advise us for the better administration of that project.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Haakaloba: Mr Speaker, in addition to the questions asked by my colleagues, I would like to know if the hon. Minister is aware that Zesco is taking extraordinarily long to complete a short line from Chivuna to Nkonkola School despite having been paid for the job by the World Vision International. The work has actually stopped. Would the hon. Minister, therefore, assure the people who are to benefit from that line that this work is continuing and not stopping.

Mr Lembalemba: Sir, if that project has been paid for, then there is no need to have the project stopped. I promise to inquire.

I thank you, Sir.

KALONGOLA/KALABO ROAD

144. Mrs Wina asked the Minister of Works and Supply when construction of the Kalongola/Kalabo Road will begin.

Mr Katema: Mr Speaker, a feasibility study for Road D319, Kalongola to Kalabo, was done in the early 1980s. The study indicated that the project was not viable. However, due to recent developments in the area, the ministry plans to carry out a revised study next year. The construction of Road D319, Kalongola to Kalabo, will only be done after a study has been carried out. This will give an indicative figure of the cost of the project.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Wina: Mr Speaker, I am not sure whether I should make a statement or just ask a question.

Laughter.

Mrs Wina: Sir, this is a very important matter regarding this road. The viability of the Kalongola/Kalabo Road cannot be overemphasised. There are a lot of economic activities taking place in that area. The cattle come from the Western Province, Nalolo in particular and timber and previously maize. So, how can the Government say that the road is not viable? What criteria did the ministry use to determine the non-viability of this road?

Mr Katema: Mr Speaker, the factors that the hon. Member has talked about have made us plan to re-do the study next year. We have taken into consideration the economic activities and many other factors. That is why we want to do the study, again, so that the road can finally be done.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Situmbeko: Mr Speaker, before I pose my question, I should remind the hon. Minister that during the Governments of Dr Kaunda and Dr Chiluba, the area west of the Zambezi did not experience any development and is cut-off. The people there have not yet known the benefits of independence. Starting from Kalongola up to Chavuma, there is no road.

Mr Speaker, is he aware that the meat we are enjoying here is from west of the Zambezi River, which he is denying development? Can the hon. Minister explain.

Mr Katema: Mr Speaker, I am aware of that fact. That is why I am saying it is important that we do a new study on the road and look for funding to construct it.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Shumina: Mr Speaker, I am very disturbed. This country has seen roads constructed to pass through the bush when we have people living between Kalongola and Kalabo. May the hon. Minister confirm that we are part of Zambia and next year we are constructing a road between Kalongola and Kalabo.

Mr Katema: Mr Speaker, I wish to confirm that they are actually part of Zambia and that the first stage towards construction of a road is a feasibility study and later we can market the road and source funding.

I thank you, Sir. {mospagebreak}

Mr Sibetta: Mr Speaker, I would like to recognise the magnanimity of the Deputy Minister who is answering these questions very well. May he keep it up! He is Cabinet material.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sibetta: Mr Speaker, is the Government going to include construction of a bridge on the Zambezi at Kalongola when they come up to do the feasibility study and a bridge on Lweti on the way to Kalabo? I will be very grateful if the hon. Minister can assure the House because the Government is about to construct roads without bridges.

Laughter.

Mr Katema: Mr Speaker, I will go and look at the two issues that have been raised concerning the bridges, after which I will come and provide an answer to the House.

Thank you, Sir.

Mrs Wamulume: (Liuwa): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister if he is aware that that road is very important. The UNIP Government, which constructed that road, was not stupid.

Laughter.

Mrs Wamulume: There was a purpose for that road.

Laughter.

Mrs Wamulume: Yes, I want to say things here because it seems he does not know.

The Deputy Chairman: Order! The use of the word ‘stupid’ is unparliamentary. Can the hon. Member withdraw that word.

Mrs Wamulume: Mr Speaker, the word is withdrawn. 

Is the hon. Minister aware that the road is used by soldiers when they are patrolling the border with Angola? Is he aware that that is the only road that links Kalabo to other places in Western Province when it is flooded?

Mr Katema: Mr Chairman, I must mention that I had the privilege of discussing this road with Hon. Wina and she also emphasised the importance of the road and its viability. So, I am really aware that the road is very important and this is why we would like to do something about it.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Miss Nawa: Mr Speaker, if I heard correctly, the hon. Minister said that there was a feasibility study that was done before. The study found that the road was viable. What has happened to that feasibility study? Can it not be used?

Mr Katema: Mr Speaker, a lot has changed. The cost of the road, for instance, would not be the same because the study also includes the cost of the road. So, a new study would be most appropriate.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

KARIBA NORTH BANK COMPANY LIMITED

145. Mr Syakalima asked the Minister of Energy and Water Development when the Kariba North Bank Company Limited management will be relocated from Lusaka to Siavonga.

Mr Lembalemba: Mr Speaker, there are no plans to relocate the management of Kariba North Bank from Lusaka to Siavonga. However, since this problem has been brought to my attention, there is need for my ministry to consider it. I am, therefore, asking the hon. Member of Parliament for Siavonga to come to my office and discuss this problem further.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Syakalima: Mr Speaker, instead of the hon. Minister sneaking me into his office, I would like him to just use a little bit of common sense and inform us whether he really finds it reasonable that Kariba North Bank should have its headquarters in Lusaka. Is it cost- effective, or business etiquette or does he appreciate the fact that most of the workers of Kariba North Bank would rather have their headquarters down where the power company is? 

Is he also aware that the overheads are too many to bring, first of all, all the vehicles that run between Siavonga and Lusaka everyday, including phones as well? Could he shed some light on this and inform us whether this is a cost-effective venture in business.

Mr Lembalemba:  Mr Speaker, I think in one way or another, I conceded to his request. That is why I said that we, as a ministry, have to consider that. I politely asked him to come to the office so that whatever could be put in place could be agreed upon by all parties. No one is disputing the question before me.

I thank you, Sir.

MWINILUNGA TRAINING CENTRE

146. Mr Katoka (Mwinilunga East) asked the Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives:

(a)    why Mwinilunga Training Centre has been neglected; and
(b)    
(c)    how much money was allocated for agricultural training in Mwinilunga in 2002.

Mr Kamwendo: Mr Speaker, the Mwinilunga Farmers Training Centre has not been neglected as it is in a habitable state. However, there is need for replacement of some items and renovations to the buildings.

Sir, a total sum of K19, 804,0000.00 was allocated for agricultural training in Mwinilunga in 2002. The breakdown is as follows:

Farming as a business            K 3,691,000
Seed Multiplication            K 5,592,000
Training Farmer’s Associations        K 4,517,000
Training in gender            K 6,004,000
Total                    K19, 804,000

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Katoka: Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives tell us why North-Western Province is always given a raw deal by the New Deal Government in any agricultural programmes.

Mr Sikatana: Mr Speaker, the New Deal Government has not as yet reached the ‘always’ because it is hardly a year in Government. If the hon. Member has a quarrel with the past, it should be directed to particular projects that we could address. It is particularly so because North-Western Province is in the rain belt and has got very fertile soils and we would like to see the revival of industries such as pineapples.

Mr P. G. Phiri: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that farmer training centres have completely done away with agricultural activities and that they are now turned into guest houses?

Mr Sikatana: Mr Speaker, we are aware of the deplorable state of most of our training centers. We are busy sourcing for funding to immediately revive these centres because you cannot train any farmers at most of our training centres in the state they are in. We do not wish to turn any of them into guest houses or lodges because they are key to agriculture. Heavy investment is looked for.

If you looked at Katete, Namushakende and Solwezi, those institutions that were approved are no longer there. These are the places where the ministry used to train farmers. There is a need now for us to inject more funding in the revival of these training centres.

Mr Shemena: Sir, I am very impressed by the Chairman’s answer that he would like to support …

Hon. Members: Hon. Minister not Chairman.

Mr Shemena: Please, listen to me.

Hon. Members: But you said Chairman instead of hon. Minister.

Laughter.

Mr Shemena: Mr Speaker, I am impressed by the answer given by the hon. Minister. But, why is it that the only Mutanda Research Station in the province is neglected?

Mr Sikatana: Could the hon. Member, please, repeat his question.

Mr Shemena: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister said that he intends to revamp the agricultural activities in the province. I am now wondering why the ministry has neglected the only Mutanda Research Station in the province. There are doctors there who you pay salaries every month and you pay electricity and water bills every month.

Mr Sikatana: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member of Parliament will agree that it is the majority of our research stations that are in deplorable state of affairs. We are now realising how important it is to sustain research and development. Therefore, funding is being sort immediately to revive every research centre. If you went to Mount Makulu today, it is not the Mount Makulu that you knew in the past. We are not able to produce the best results under the circumstances. So, I can assure the hon. Member of Parliament that it is not a deliberate move by the new administration, but it is because of the lack of funding. We are making sure that the donors do assist us immediately in revamping every research center, including the one in the North-Western Province.

Mr Ng’uni: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware and committed to this dream of making agriculture in this country an engine of the economy for this country? If I look back to UNIP days, you will realise that, in fact, we are more flamboyant in talking about what we want to do when, in fact, we do not have the capacity to implement our agricultural dream. For example, farming institutes are left to deteriorate. In certain areas, they are not even there at all and feeder roads are not there.

Mr Sikatana: The ministry is aware and determined.

Thank you, Sir.

HOUSING IN NEWLY DISTRICT COUNCILS

147. Mr I. M. Phiri (Malambo) asked the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing when houses will be built in all newly established district councils, especially in Mambwe District.

Mr Chitala: Mr Chairman, I wish to inform this august House that the Ministry of Local Government, through Shelter Afrique Project, has already constructed seven houses in each of the six newly created district councils that is Kazungula, Shangombo, Mpongwe, Lufwanyama, Chavuma and Chiengi. The ministry has included the extension of the project to other small districts including Mambwe in its Budget Estimates for 2003.

Thank you, Sir.

Mrs Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that the houses that were built in Kazungula District have pit latrines in this modern era?

Mr Mabenga: It was an emergency.

Laughter.

Mr Mabenga: Sir, it was an emergency because most of these district centres do not have water supply. What we need to do is to get engines to be able to pump water in those areas. Arrangements for Kazungula District, for example, have reached an advanced stage where a water engine is being ferried to that place. The hon. Member knows very well that Kazungula District has tractors there to be able to do some work for the district. 

So, we are trying very hard, Sir, to make sure that services come to those districts. We are also working very hard to see that there is even electricity in these districts and other services.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Ntundu: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister in case it has slipped his mind that Gwembe District has been shifted from Gwembe civic headquarters to Munyumbwe. I am wondering whether he has any programme looking at his submission of only the six districts that are newly established. Is he going to do something about this new district also that has been shifted to Munyumbwe?

Mr Mabenga: Sir, plans are there. In fact, we are not ending at Gwembe. If you look at Chirundu, it is becoming a big centre and it is just proper that we begin thinking of putting some administration there. There are many centres that we want to see upgraded. So, we are going to make efforts to see that these centres are serviced.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr T. K. Nyirenda: Sir, I want to find out whether the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing is serious about the commitment of building houses in Mambwe District when they are failing to give the K30 million Constituency Development Fund. Where are they going to get this money in the next Budget?

Mr Mabenga: The question for Constituency Development Fund is a baby of the Ministry of Finance and National Planning. The question of building houses is our baby. We are using Afrique Shelter, National Housing Authority and Africa Housing Fund. So, we have got a number of sources for building of houses.

Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Chibanga: Sir, I am wondering why Chama District has been left out on this programme. It looks to be a very old district. It was abandoned sometime back. I am saying this because Chama District has no enough houses. The houses that council owned were not complete. When will Chama enjoy this facility and benefit from this initiative.

Mr Mabenga: Sir, it is not just Chama alone. There are quite a number of other areas not put on the priority list. I would like to assure my colleague there that we are not segregating any district at all. We will be able to service you. I know that the hon. Member, for example, for Sikongo will complain about Sikongo sub-District because those people require shelter there. The other hon. Members will also complain. But we are putting all these on our list so that now that we are about to finish with Shangombo, Kazungula, Chavuma, Mpongwe and Lufwanyama, we will go into the next phase of looking after buildings for our district centres. Notwithstanding the fact that we are actually now thinking about building office blocks for those areas because they are not operating from offices as such. They use one or two houses for their offices.

So, we want to make sure that all these offices are put there and serviceable to these centres.

Thank you, Sir.

MAMBWE DISTRICT COUNCIL

148. Mr I. M. Phiri asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing when a grader will be provided to Mambwe District Council.

Mr Chitala: Mr Speaker, the ministry has put in place a programme to develop infrastructure in all newly created district councils. In this programme, my ministry intends to develop the road network, water supply and sanitation schemes and rural markets in all these councils. In a bid to develop the road network, my ministry plans to procure road construction and rehabilitation equipment for these councils. It is within the framework of this programme that Mambwe will be provided with a grader. Under the draft 2003 Budget Estimates, a provision has been made for this programme.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Ntundu: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that the contract that was awarded to Gwembe District Council to do feeder roads was turned down by the district administration?

Mr Chitala: Mr Speaker, we are not aware.

Thank you, Sir.

CANCER

149. Miss Nawa asked the Minister of Health:

(a)    how many women have died from cervical cancer and breast cancer since 1991 countrywide;
(b)    what measures are there to sensitise women on the importance of regular medical check-ups on the disease; and
(c)    whether doctors can be mandated to carry out these check-ups regularly.

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, the number of women who have died from cervical and breast cancers countrywide is as follows: cancer of the cervix, that is the womb - 132; and cancer of the breast – 20. I must, however, add that these figures are only a tip of the iceberg because the health information management system is not as thorough as we would like it to be. And for that reason, we have revised it so that it goes to the districts where health information would be captured. 

Secondly, measures to sensitise women on the importance of regular check-ups are done through the following measures: 

(a)    information, education and communication by means of both print and the electronic media. There are very active programmes in the seven local languages and in English;

(b)    training of health providers in cancer screening techniques such as visual inspection with acetic acid and local treatment, pap smear which is a technique of getting scrapings from the neck of the womb and this is looked at under the microscope; and

(c)    the actual biopsy of the cervix.

Mr Speaker, doctors and nurses are already mandated to carry out these checks as part of the pre-service, post-graduate training and in-service training.

Thank you, Sir.

Mrs Nkumbula-Liebenthal (Namwala):  Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister telling this House that these facilities to test women are available all over Zambia? Or are they just available along the line of rail? If they are not available all over Zambia, what does he intend to do to make sure that they are available and women can be tested throughout Zambia? Also, is he aware that women of a certain age must have mamogram every year? Do we have this equipment in this country?

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, it is the wish, in the health reforms, to ensure that we cover the screening for these diseases at as many levels as possible. There is a level of knowledge and skill required for staff to carry out these examinations. It is clear, therefore, that it is only in certain areas like district hospitals where we will have the skills and knowledge for carrying out these tests. However, history taking precedes tests, and this does help in screening of these diseases. 

On the question of mamograms, Mr Speaker, a recent twenty year study in women of age forty and above, in self-palpation and mammograms, shows that the returns from mamogram examination is useful, but does not exclude the emergence of cancer of the breast. We are making arrangements that next year we have mamogram machines centred one in Lusaka and one on the Copperbelt. But this does not replace the manual palpation that we normally discuss with our clients.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Kalumiana: Mr Speaker, I do not know whether the hon. Minister will find my question to be new or old. I am worried by the involvement of one NGO in this highly specialised field. I am talking about the MMCI. We have read that this NGO, with good intentions, has been involved in sourcing for drugs. 

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order! Can you ask your question, please.

Mr Kaluminana: Sir, I was trying to build a question to assist the hon. Minister so that he answers. As the MMCI goes round sourcing ARVs and all these other drugs, and this being a specialised area, what role does the ministry play in this activity?

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, this is a completely new question. However, I will give the hon. Member a bonus answer. The MMCI, like many NGOs in this country, are doing a commendable job to supplement what the Government is doing. I find it particularly disturbing that indigenous NGOs are looked upon with suspicion. The hon. Member should actually be thankful to say that here are the indigenous NGOs trying to complement the efforts of the Government.

On the question of these specialised areas, I would like to believe that before sourcing any drugs, expert information is sought from those who have the know-how.

Thank you, Sir.

CONDITIONS OF SERVICE FOR TEACHERS

150. Mr Kasongo (Bangweulu) asked the Minister of Education when conditions for teachers serving in rural areas will be improved.

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, we have three teacher unions in this country. Currently, these three unions are negotiating for conditions of service for their members. Even before they conclude, the Government has already introduced rural hardship allowance for teachers who are serving in the rural parts of this country. 

Unfortunately, we have a lot of difficulties because even people who work in peri-urban areas and, indeed, urban areas, would like to be given this special rural hardship allowance. In addition, Mr Speaker, we are currently rehabilitating teachers’ houses in rural areas with funds from HIPC, ZAMSIF AND BESSIP. However, I must add that these funds are not adequate because the needs exceed the source of funding.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Moonde: Sir, is the hon. Minister aware that rural hardship allowance was not introduced yesterday, but eight years ago, and that what is at stake now is the extension of this rural hardship allowance to other categories of teachers? Is he also aware that even where teachers are due for hardship allowances, in certain cases, the Government has arbitrarily suspended these allowances? 

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, the Government is quite aware of these difficulties. I did mention the fact that these rural hardship allowances are being abused because those that do not qualify for these allowances are claiming them.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr L. J. Ngoma: Mr Speaker, since the hon. Minister of Education is aware that there are difficulties in the administration of rural hardship allowance, what measures have been put in place to see to it that those administrative hiccups are addressed? One of the hiccups is that, sometimes, it takes over two years before one accesses this rural hardship allowance. In the same vein, what measures are being put in place to ensure that when one qualifies for rural hardship allowance, it does not take a lot of time before they receive it?

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, the current Government is aware of these difficulties and would like to make life very easy for our new teachers. As soon as a teacher has been posted to a very rural school, this hardship allowance is almost automatic. We have made arrangements such that as soon as a teacher’s name is introduced on the payroll, all the allowances, which that teacher is supposed to be paid, are commenced immediately.

Thank you, Sir.

Mrs Wina: Mr Speaker, I want to commend the Ministry of Education for posting quite a number of teachers to rural areas this year. However, I wonder whether the hon. Minister is aware of the deplorable situation of accommodation for these teachers. I am not sure whether the hon. Minister is also aware that the ministry is promoting the spread of HIV/AIDS …

Interruptions.

Mrs Wina: I am surprised that I am getting a negative reaction from the Front Bench even before my sentence is complete. 

The issue is that in my constituency, three to five teachers are sharing one grass-thatched room. Some of these teachers are married women.

The Deputy Chairman: Hon. Member for Nalolo, can you ask your question, you are now debating.

Mrs  Wina: Sir, is the hon. Minister of Education aware that his ministry is promoting a breakup of marriages for teachers in rural areas and also the spread of HIV/AIDS by separating families?

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, I will be a very, very sad Minister of Education responsible for morality among both teachers and pupils in this country if the Government deliberately promoted the spread of HIV/AIDS among teachers. To say the least, we are in the forefront fighting against the spread of HIV/AIDS. So, I am hearing that for the first time here.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze): Mr Speaker, I just want to find out from the hon. Minister why it takes so long for newly recruited teachers to be on the payroll. Sometimes it takes more than a year for them to get a salary. I concur with my sister here that they are encouraging HIV/AIDS, especially among ladies who are not able to find means to sustain themselves.

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, I thought that I would be congratulated on putting teachers on the payroll within the shortest possible time because in the past it took longer than three years or even four years to have these teachers put on the payroll. We had a number of problems. We used to suffer from this philosophy of ghost teachers. There were a number of people who were put on the payroll who were not, actually, teaching. Because this was quite widespread and it caused a lot of hiccups for the Government, we have tried to contain the problem by decentralising the process of putting people on the payroll.

Furthermore, Cabinet Office is now involved to ensure that we do not pay people who are not actually teachers. I quite agree that it does take a bit of time, but we cannot do any better than that because we need information on these teachers before they are finally put on the payroll. At the same time, we must be satisfied that the people who are put on the payroll are, actually, teaching in our schools. So, it is a foolproof measure, although, unfortunately, it takes a bit of time, but that is the best the Government can do.

Thank you, Sir.

ROAD TRAFFIC COMMISSION: COMPUTERISING

151. Mr Kasongo asked the Minister of Communications and Transport when processing of documents at the Road Traffic Commission will be computerised.

The Deputy Minister of Communications and Transport (Mr Nsanda): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the House that the initial stages of the computerisation programme of the Road Traffic Commission commenced as early as 1997. Due to the difficulties experienced with the manual system, which was inefficient and resulted in poor record keeping and loss of revenue, the system was also prone to fraud and general abuse.

In addition, the manual system could not give accurate figures on the population of motor vehicles, number of drivers, passenger service vehicles and registered or scrapped vehicles in the country.

In line with what I have outlined above, my ministry realised the urgent need to continue the computerisation process and have it concluded in the shortest time possible. Accordingly, my ministry worked through the Zambia National Tender Board and floated the tender to computerise the department. On 11th December, 2001, a contract was awarded to Face Technologies of South Africa to fully computerise all the functions of the department.

To achieve the above, however, it was necessary first to secure suitable premises. The former Electrical Maintenance Premises Limited on Lumumba Road were inspected by relevant Government authorities and found most appropriate for this purpose. This major computerisation phase is currently underway and will be as follows:

Part one

Computerise Headquarters in Lusaka by 31st December, 2002 

Part two

Computerise Ndola, Kitwe and Livingstone by 1st June, 2003; and

Part three

Computerise the rest of the country, including border areas by 31st December, 2003.

Mr Speaker, going by the contractor’s assessment, Lusaka is expected to be operational by the end of November, 2002.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Ntundu: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the Minister of Communications and Transport what the Government is doing over areas that have poor or no communication at all like Gwembe.

Mr Nsanda: Mr Speaker, that is totally a new question unrelated to the question at hand.

I thank you, Sir.

MWAMI BORDER POST

152. Miss Jere asked the Minister of Foreign Affairs what measures are in place to ensure that both Malawian and Zambian nationals do not abuse the “no man’s land” around the Mwami Border Post in Eastern Province.

The Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs (Miss Namugala): Mr Speaker, I believe that this question should have been directed to the hon. Minister of Home Affairs. However, currently, there is no no man’s land around Mwami Border Post. The land stretching above twelve kilometers is actually in Malawi. It is referred to as no man’s land because of the distance between the two border posts, namely, Mwami in Zambia and Mchinji in Malawi. 

The people living around this area are, therefore, not Zambians, but Malawians. The Malawian authorities intend to shift the Mchinji Border Post closer to Mwami Border Post to curb possible abuse of the area by mainly smugglers and pirate taxi operators. Besides this, there is a police post at Mwami Border Post whose officers conduct patrols in conjunction with the Zambian Immigration and Zambia Revenue Authority.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwale: Mr Speaker, I tend to disagree with the hon. Minister’s answer because I come from that area. Is the hon. Minister aware that, in fact, in the last two or so years, there has been a re-beaconing of the Malawi/Zambia border map on the eastern side. It is as a result of that re-beaconing that we lost the right to the no man’s land. The Malawians have gone ahead to construct offices, as you have said, from a twelve kilometres distance to one kilometre between our borders.

I would also like to ask that if this was done by the agreement of the Malawian and the Zambian Governments. Where did the Zambian Government get the mandate? I think it is a treasonable offence to give away the people’s land without consulting them.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Miss Namugala: Mr Speaker, the portfolio holders for that is the Ministry of Home Affairs and we agreed that the hon. Minister would attend to the supplementary questions.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mapushi: Generally speaking, Mr Speaker, I am aware that there is some work to be done on the border between Malawi and Zambia. If things go well, I am sure by the end of the first quarter of next year, we should be able to establish the no man’s land.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Tetamashimba: Mr Speaker, somebody seems to doubt that I have been to Chipata, but I have worked in Chipata before.

Mr Speaker, can the Minister of Home Affairs confirm that the attitude of this Government, which has led to us losing the land between Malawi, and ourselves is the same attitude, which has made Zambia lose land between Chiengi and Mpweto. Mpweto, which is now in Congo, was actually in Zambia. The beacon that is in Mpweto was actually in Zambia’s area.

Mr Mapushi: Mr Speaker, there are two aspects to that question. The first one is at the local level. The local people will normally quarrel over the border, but the official position is that Zambia has got properly secured boundaries. All we are going to work on is create no man’s land between Zambia and Malawi, and that is also the case at Mpweto Station.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukwakwa: Mr Speaker, this aspect is not only restricted to Mwami. In light of this, is this re-zoning or removing of the beacons an aspect of new dealings?

Laughter.

Mr Mapushi: Mr Speaker, the boundaries of Zambia are properly drawn. The only area where we seem to have a problem is at the local level where our  people seem to have different boundaries other than the international ones. 

What we are doing in the ministry is that, as soon as we discover that there is a lot of traffic in terms of crossing borders between two countries, we move in and use international standards to establish the no man’s land so that this seeming re-beaconing can be forgotten.

I thank you, sir.

Mr Ng’uni: Mr Speaker, is the Minister of Home Affairs aware that our Government is potentially courting a crisis between countries, especially in my constituency at Kalovya where Malawians have unilaterally moved into Zambia? One of these fine days people in my constituency will forcibly start pushing Malawians away. Can he give us a plan on when he can shift those Malawians back to Malawi before Zambians at Kalovya decide to take the law into their own hands.

Mr Mapushi: Mr Speaker, as I said earlier, the local people in each border area have a different opinion or belief about their boundaries. One of the difficulties we face, as a Government, is that people living on the border are more or less of the same tribe and have the same customs. If I can talk about Mpweto in the Luapula Province, we have cases where the uncle is a headman in DRC and a nephew a headman on the Zambian side. 

So, really, at a local level these quarreling and pushing and accusations will continue. But where we have evidence that this type of quarreling can lead to serious problems, as Government, we will move in to ensure that we remind the local people of the international boundaries.

I thank you, Sir.

The Deputy Chairman: I will allow one more question.

Captain Moono: Mr Speaker, I am very worried about the attitude of the Government.

Mr Sichilima: Ask your question.

Captain Moono: I am laying a base.

I recently came from Luapula Province. Whilst there, I learnt that we lost twelve kilometres of land in that province and we have lost another twelve in the Eastern Province. At the rate we are going, very soon, Zambia will be smaller than Malawi. What is the Government doing to address the situation? Some land we are losing is rich in minerals and other countries are benefiting at our expense.

Mr Mapushi: Mr Speaker, Zambia has a total of nine joint commissions, meaning with every neighbouring country, we have a forum in which to discuss these matters. In the recent past, I have been privileged to lead Zambian delegations to discuss with Malawi, Namibia and Botswana and in all these meetings, we did not have any questions of boundaries arising. 

However, as I said, the perception or view held by the local people, who are on the ground, seems to be different from that of the Government. I can assure the hon. Member that Zambia will not lose a single inch of its land.

I thank you, Sir.

The Deputy Chairman: Order! At this juncture, I thank hon. Members. I had indicated that we were running against time. I will, now, proceed to ask His Honour the Vice President to adjourn the House.

MOTION

ADJOURNMENT

The Vice President (Mr Kavindele): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do, now, adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

The House adjourned at 1954 hours until 1430 hours on Wednesday, 30th October, 2002.

WRITTEN REPLY TO QUESTION

134. Mr Shumina (Mangango): asked the Minister of Finance and National Planning how much was owed to the Zambia National Commercial Bank Limited by the Zambia National Oil Company as at 31st December, 2001.

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Kasonde): Mr Speaker, the Zambia National Oil Company (in liquidation) owed Zambia National Commercial Bank (ZANACO). However, a detailed reconciliation is still on going between the Liquidator and ZANACO, with Bank of Zambia supervising the process. The House will be informed in full over the outcome once all the figures are finalised.

Mr Speaker, it has been established that the Zambia National Oil Company owed ZANACO K248.8 billion. In order to resolve these issues, the Government has since taken over the debts by issuing bonds to ZANACO in September, 2002.