DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE FIRST SESSION OF THE NINTH ASSEMBLY 

Thursday, 31st October, 2002

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

QUESTIONS

REFUGEES’ WELFARE

173. Mr A. J. D. M. Chungu (Kawambwa) asked the Minister of Home Affairs how much money was received by the Zambian Government for the welfare of refugees between January 2001 and July 2002.

The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Sakeni): Mr Speaker, a total of K82 billion was received by the Zambian Government for the welfare of refugees between January 2001 and July 2002.

I thank you, Sir.

LUAPULA HEALTH CENTRES

174. Mr J. S. Chilufya (Mansa) asked the Minister of Health when an ambulance would be provided to serve the following health centres in the Luapula Province:

(i)    Matanda;

(ii)    Kalyongo; and

(iii)    Bukanda.

The Deputy Minister of Health (Mr G. Chulumanda): Mr Speaker, the Ministry of Health, through the Central Board of Health, has provided, in its Budget for 2002, for seventy-two vehicles for the districts and these vehicles could be converted into an ambulance. Once the funding is released and the vehicles procured, Matanda, Kayongo and Buhanda could be centrally serviced by the respective districts.

Mr Speaker, there are no specific ambulances for rural health centres.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Patel (Lusaka Central): Mr Speaker, could the hon. Minister tell us, now that we only have two months to go before the year ends, when he expects the money to be 
released.

The Minister of Health (Dr Chituwo): Mr Speaker, I have to add here that, in fact, the procurement of these vehicles is at the tendering stage and that is the process which will determine when we will have these vehicles.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr L. L. Phiri (Chipangali): Mr Speaker, I would like to know how many districts, so far, have received ambulances countrywide.

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, that is a new question and it can receive an appropriate answer when asked in the normal procedure.

I thank you, Sir.

Miss Sialumba (Mapatizya): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Deputy Minister when he is going to consider rural hospitals and clinics for ambulances because I know that rural centres have never had a chance of having these facilities when, in fact, that is where the population is concentrated.

Mr G. Chulumanda: Mr Speaker, like the hon. Minister has said, when we procure the seventy-two vehicles and all the districts have benefited, the moneys that will come thereafter, will go towards benefiting rural health centres. This is cardinal, like the hon. Member has said.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Mr Speaker, in view of what the hon. Minister has said, I wonder when he will consider boats as ambulances for the rural health centres in my constituency which cannot use vehicles.

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, I had hoped that the hon. Member of Parliament would have checked with the district. As a matter of fact, we started with Chilubi which has a boat for health care delivery.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Simenda (Mongu): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister of Health whether it is permissible to use ambulances for personal errands like taking children to school instead of picking up patients from their homes and taking them to hospital.

Mr G. Chulumanda: Mr Speaker, that is one area where we need the co-operation and assistance of hon. Members of this House. It is up to you, Hon. Simenda, to assist, through your good office, by co-operating with the district office or the provincial health office in your respective district and 

[Mr G. Chulumanda]

province. That is our worry also, as a ministry, but we hope that with your co-operation and co-ordination, we will achieve our goals.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sibetta (Luena): Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister clarify the number of vehicles for which they want bids. I have read their invitation to the public to bid for these vehicles. In the advertisement, they want sixty-two vehicles but he is talking of seventy-two. I would like to know which is which. Can the hon. Minister give us a correct answer.

I would also like to know whether they are going to distribute them on a pro rata basis.

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, I have had difficulties in trying to comprehend the Lozi English but I will try to ...

Laughter.

Dr Chituwo: I do not know, Sir.

Laughter.

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, the composite figure is seventy-two. Sir, eighteen vehicles have already been distributed and it is the composite figure that we are talking about. It is true that we have asked for bids for sixty-two vehicles but we are talking of the whole number to cover the districts in the country.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter.

Mr Pwele (Roan): Mr Speaker, I would like to learn from the hon. Minister of Health when he is going to take over Roan and Luanshya Hospitals which have crumbled after the collapse of RAMCOZ.

Mr Speaker: Order! That question is irrelevant, but are you able to give a bonus answer to the hon. Member’s concern?

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, I am not in a position to offer a bonus answer. That matter will be considered appropriately when RAMCOZ is taken over.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr P. G. Phiri (Vubwi): Mr Speaker, our constituency is kilometres away from the district, therefore, the seventy-two vehicles that are mentioned here will not …

Mr Speaker: Order! What is the question?

Mr P. G. Phiri: Mr Speaker, will the hon. Minister consider us, in the meantime, through his office, to use the MMD vehicles that are available in our constituency. We need a vehicle to use as an ambulance.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order! The Chair is unaware that the Ministry of Health can speak for a political party in here …

Laughter.

Mr Speaker: …but if he can, please, go ahead.

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, I have no jurisdiction over the vehicles that have been referred to. However, it is expected, under normal circumstances, that if the relationship in the district is normal, then that should not be a problem.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Badat (Mumbwa): Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister explain why some vehicles bought by Mumbwa District Health Board and others donated to the board have private number plates. How is the Government going to control vehicles that have private registration numbers?

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, I wished the hon. Member of Parliament was in touch with his constituency. The District Health Boards have been empowered, under the health reforms, to save money for projects for that district. In light of the fact that the boards have raised and saved money, they are able, with the assistance of the Ministry of Health, to buy vehicles. These vehicles belong to respective boards. That is why they bear private numbers.

I thank you, Sir.

LIQUIDATION OF MEMACO

175. Mr Nzowa (Kabushi) asked the Minister of Mines and Minerals Development why MEMACO was liquidated and who handled all copper sales thereafter.

The Deputy Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr Kazala-Laski): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform this august House that MEMACO was voluntarily liquidated following the decision by ZCCM in 1995 to market and sell its own metals. After the liquidation of MEMACO, metal sales were handled by ZCCM UK Limited, a subsidiary company of ZCCM.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nzowa: Mr Speaker, the owners of MEMACO were also the proprietors of the new company. What was the reason behind liquidating MEMACO and creating another company run by the same shareholders? Can the hon. Minister honestly and tell us who handled the sales of copper.

The Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr Mulela): Mr Speaker, the reason is that ZCCM had to cut on costs.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sichinga (Kafue): Mr Speaker, could the hon. Minister confirm to this House that, in fact, copper was not sold by the ZCCM subsidiary but a Brussels-based company called SOCOMOR.

Mr Mulela: Mr Speaker, I cannot confirm that. It is a new a question which needs research.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Banda (Milanzi): Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development answer the following question: where is the money realised from the copper and cobalt sales? Even if it was sold through dubious means, we want to know where this money is.

Mr Mulela: Mr Speaker, that is a new question.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr L. L. Phiri: Show leadership imwe or resign!

Mr Speaker: Order! The Chair did not even call on you, Sir. You were in too much of a hurry. I was going to advise that you take it easy on this one.

Mr Chibanga (Chama North): Mr Speaker, I would like the Government, through the hon. Minister, to tell us what is happening in Chama North about the oil which has, now, become a white elephant in the district.

Mr Speaker: Order! Sir, I am not certain that you are with us on this subject. The question deals with copper sales, I believe, under ZCCM. The issue relating to Chama oil is not part of this subject. If the hon. Member so wishes, he can submit a question related to Chama oil in due course.

Mr Patel: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister gave assurances in the first quarter of this year, in this House, that the report on cobalt sales would be released within six weeks. That has not happened. When will he keep the Government’s promise and release the report?

Mr Mulela: Mr Speaker, that question should have been directed to the Ministry of Finance and National Planning.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Hachipuka (Mbabala): Mr Speaker, I want to go back to MEMACO. How can the hon. Minister confirm that the reason for closing MEMACO was to cut costs when, in fact, MEMACO had all the expertise built over years to sell metals for this country? 

He is not telling the truth, Sir, and should not be allowed to get away with it.

Mr Mulela: Mr Speaker, MEMACO had a local office here in Lusaka and an office in London. So, to cut costs, the office in Lusaka had to be closed so that ZCCM could use one office in London.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muyanda (Sinazongwe): Mr Speaker, what has the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development done about BENICON, the South African-based company which plundered Maamba Collieries?

Mr Speaker: Order! I am not certain that the hon. Member is with us as well.

Laughter.

Mr Moonde (Bweengwa): Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that after MEMACO was liquidated, the employees were swindled out of thousands of their money by the liquidators? If he is aware and with representations made already, what steps is he taking to have the situation addressed because some of these people have died due to depression.

Mr Speaker: Order! That question is relevant. May the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development answer it.

Mr Mulela: Mr Speaker, that is a new question.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Samukonga (Chawama): Mr Speaker, I would like the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development to shed light on the status of Memaco House in London which was allegedly mortgaged by one Katoto.

Mr Mulela: Mr Speaker, the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development does not deal with assets. That is also a new question.

Thank you, Sir.

Laughter.

Mr Speaker: Is His Honour the Vice-President able to help by giving a general policy answer on this matter? Perhaps, now or later?

The Vice-President (Mr Kavindele): Mr Speaker, when the Government sold off the mines, the new owners of the mines made their own arrangements concerning metal sales. That is what I know, Sir.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Shepande (Nangoma): Sir, can the hon. Minister tell this House whether all the proceeds have been accounted for.

Mr Mulela: Mr Speaker, I am not sure whether the hon. Member is talking about privatisation of the mines or not.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Order! It is necessary for me to guide the House in general, and the Executive in particular, that when hon. Members take trouble to ask questions for oral answer, at least 21 days notice is given. All efforts, therefore, must be taken to ensure that thorough research is done.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: The professionals in the ministry concerned must anticipate all possible supplementary questions.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: It does not help the Government for hon. Ministers to keep saying, ‘That is a new question.’ It may be true in certain instances. However, when supplementary questions are relevant, that is another matter. It is necessary for the experts in various ministries to dig deep and anticipate all possible supplementary questions to assist the hon. Ministers deal with the issues that pertain to their ministries. There is so much information available at Cabinet level. We may not continue along these lines because we are not getting anywhere.

LUALIZI/CHIBALE ROAD

176. Mr Chibanga asked the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing how many kilometres of the Lualizi/Chibale Road have been upgraded and why it is taking long to complete the rehabilitation works.

The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr Chitala): I wish to inform this august House that the Lualizi/Chibale Road in Chama was earmarked for upgrading 

in the 2002 annual works programme. However, due to budgetary constraints, no works were done on the road during the year. It has, now, been planned that the works will be done under the 2003 annual works programme.

Thank you, Sir.

SCHOOLS IN KAZUNGULA

177. Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola) asked the hon. Minister of Education:

(a)    how many schools are in Kazungula District; and

(b)    how many of these are built of pole and mud.

The Minister of Education (Mr Mulenga): Mr Speaker, Kazungula District has fifty-two schools. There are nine Government and twenty community schools built out of pole and mud.

Thank you, Sir.

Mrs Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister let this House know when they are going to transform the nine Government schools into brick schools. I am asking this because in urban areas, schools are being built everyday. The Japanese and World Bank are building and everybody else is building. This is not the case in rural areas. When are they going to transform the nine schools that are in Kazungula into brick schools?

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, it is true that currently we have a number of schools that are under construction and these schools are being built by different agencies. It is very difficult for Government, however, to state, with certainty, that the nine schools are going to be built in Kazungula by a given date. However, the Government is seriously considering upgrading all such schools, not only in Kazungula, but all over the country.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Chipampe (Chimbamilonga): Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister of Education aware that of the recently postedseventy-six  teachers in Kaputa District, only 29 have reported? If at all the hon. Minister is aware, what measures has he put in place so that that shortfall is taken care of?

Mr Speaker: Order! The hon. Minister of Education may answer that question in relation to Katombola. Does the same situation that the hon. Member for Chimbamilonga is mentioning obtain in Katombola?

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, the Government is aware of the number of teachers who have reported and those that have 
not reported. Because we know that we cannot put teachers on the pay roll before they report, we allow them to decide when to report because Government will only pay them when they report to their various schools.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Situmbeko (Senanga): Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that the shortage of teachers in rural areas is as a result of teachers refusing to go and live in pole and mud houses?

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, the shortage of teachers is not only being experienced by schools in rural areas. The major reason for the shortage is that we are not training enough teachers. As a precautionary measure, the Government has stopped the practice of paying teachers before they actually report. The measures taken are intended to persuade all teachers to report to their schools before they begin getting paid.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister enlighten us on one very important issue. The situation in Katombola where there are twenty community schools versus nine Government schools is representative of the whole country. May he inform this House what measures his Government is taking to ensure that community schools are supported by the Government to raise not only the physical standards, but also the quality of education being offered to our children.

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, under the strategic plan beginning from the year 2003 to 2007, there are plans to eventually take over all community schools. All community schools are transitional. The Government will eventually take over the responsibility of rehabilitating and staffing them. I must add that community schools are a result of communities’ initiative in the provision of education in this country.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Kakoma (Zambezi West): Sir, is the hon. Minister aware that some teachers being posted to rural schools are refusing to go there because they cannot live in the pole and mud houses because it is against their conditions of service? Is he aware that it is a violation of their conditions of service? 

Mr Speaker: That supplementary question has already been asked and answered.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichinga: Mr Speaker, could the hon. Minister inform 

this House whether under BESSIP or any other strategic plan that his ministry has, there is a plan to get rid of the pole and 
mud  houses and classrooms for various schools after 38 years of Zambia’s independence. If so, could he give us an idea whether this will take care of schools in Kazungula and other constituencies in the country and when he expects this to be done.

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, the Government has taken note of all the schools throughout the country that need attention. In the year 2001, there was an exercise entitled ‘School Mapping’. The Ministry of Education knows exactly which district and which place has non-permanent structures. Currently, the Government, through BESSIP programmes, is slowly phasing out such structures. I must, perhaps, take this chance to inform the nation, through this House, that the process of replacing these temporary structures is an on-going one. With the availability of resources, I am convinced that we will be able to replace all such structures.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Shemena (Solwezi West): Sir, I would like to know what the hon. Minister is doing to persuade the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to release the counterpart fund in order to access the micro-projects and ZAMSIF funds. I say so because hon. Members of Parliament have mobilised their communities and they have made contributions. Despite this, funds have not been released.

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, I think that question can be better answered by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning. I can only say that the Ministry of Education is making such demands.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Kalumiana (Nalikwanda): Mr Speaker, what measures are contained in the strategic plan that the hon. Minister has just talked about that will ensure that, while the Government is going around attending to these pole and mud schools, the quality of education is not compromised? How are they going to prevent a disparity in quality between those schools and the schools that are better off? Could the hon. Minister of Education, please, explain.

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, with your permission, such a document can be laid on the Table at a later stage. It is a very big document whose details I cannot give to this august House off the cuff.

I thank you, Sir.

ZAMBIAN UNIVERSITIES SELF-SUSTENANCE

178. Mr Kasongo (Bangweulu) asked the Minister of 

[Mr Kasongo]

Education what measures have been put in place to promote self-sustenance at the two Zambian universities.

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, the following measures have been put in place to promote self-sustenance at the two universities. 

University of Zambia

The University of Zambia has put in place a policy relating to income generation as follows:

The general policy as laid down by the University Council aims at making the university self-sustaining in the generation of income. The policy document by the Government, ‘Educating Our Future’, lists sources of income for the university as grants, donations and user fees. 

(i)    To this effect, the university is in the process of giving off some units and commercialising them through the creation of six business ventures, namely: the Technology and Development Advisory Unit, the University Bookshop, the University Village Marshlands Guest House, the UNZA Printer, the UNZA Nursery and the UNZA Clinic. These units are currently running but need recapitalisation to strengthen their financial basis and increase business activity output. No significant revenue is being raised from these units at present.

(ii)    The University of Zambia Council owns 100 per cent shares in ZAMNET and 49 per cent in York Farms Limited. The University expects to earn dividends from these holdings. Currently, operations of the two companies require turning round so that the University of Zambia can have meaningful financial benefits from these two companies. Currently, no income is being received from these companies.

User fees - Cost sharing has taken root in Zambian higher education institutions. In 1999, the cost sharing percentage of 10 per cent was raised to 25 per cent for Government sponsored students. Further, the University Council, upon recommendation of the University Senate, approved a scheme of liberalised intake where available places are offered to self-sponsored students who are able to pay fees up-front. This system is working well and the four admitting schools have initially been allowed to retain 100 per cent tuition fees realised from the students.

The money is being used to pay allowances to academic staff with extra teaching loads, arising out of the increased 

enrolment due to liberalisation. The Senate has created a committee which oversees the allocation of that component of tuition fees to common services like the University Library and Computer Centre which may not necessarily receive tuition fees but whose facilities are widely used by the students.

All schools at UNZA have been directed to start commercial courses and evening classes on demand-driven basis as a way 
of raising revenue. In this instance, the School of Law is doing extremely well as the evening classes in law have been very popular and the school is not even able to meet the demand. Evening students pay a tuition fee of K1.2 million per course and are allowed to take a maximum of three courses per semester. The University Senate has recently approved a summer term for evening law classes to accelerate completion time.

Consultancy - The University Consultancy Regulations are currently under review. In the last four years, all income accruing to units from consultancy was left to the same units. The new regulations recommend the organisation of commercial courses and evening classes on demand-driven basis as a way of raising revenue. In this instance, the school demands a 15 per cent overhead charge on any consultancy undertaken. UNZA is also reviewing the possibility of tax exemption on consultancy income from the Government. 

The university is developing linkages with the public and private sectors. Currently, there are more than five lecturers in various disciplines fully sponsored by industry. The UNZA strategic plan for the period 2002 to 2006 has emphasised the need for strong linkages with the world of work.

Further plans are underway to reintroduce the Alumni Association of Zambia, as it is a well-known means which can earn substantial incomes from former students. The University Council has just approved an Organisation Structuring Programme for UNZA, which will lead to the inclusion of specific business management roles that will render more effective tracking of business process operations in all areas of concern.

Copperbelt University (CBU)

The university has put in place measures to promote self-sustenance. Some of these measures are:

(a)    The Centre for Life-Long Education (CLLE), which is carrying out courses in the evening and long distance learning to raise more funding for the university, has been established;

(b)    the Centre for Applied Research (ICAR) is providing consultancy to the 

    Government and the public to raise funding for the university;

(c)    we have commercial projects which are running simultaneously with other projects tabulated above; and

(d)    recently, CBU has devised a survival plan in which, among other things, it has resolved to:

(i)    collect all fees owed by students and sponsors, including the Government;

(ii)    reduce operational costs;

(iii)    market the institution to donors;

(iv)    seek companies to sponsor Chairs in the university; and

(v)    start an Alumni Association so that the alumni can help the university in various ways.

I must also tell the august House that it is very true that we have had serious management problems at the two universities but we are about to address them.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear! {mospagebreak}

Mr Speaker: Before I allow a few supplementary questions, I believe the august House will agree that that is a model reply; it is the kind of information the House needs.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes, not ‘new question’!

Mr Kasongo: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister of Education whether he has put in place measures to ensure that the revenue that will be collected from all these commercial activities, as he ably elaborated, will be accounted for.

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, the answer is ‘yes’ because the University Council is responsible for the routine running of each institution.

Thank you, Sir. 

Mr Siakalima (Siavonga): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister of Education says he is going to recapitalise the university using these ventures. Can he explain why his Government does not remit tuition fees to the university because they are 

the biggest culprit in terms of failing the university.

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, it is not very correct to say that the Government does not remit tuition fees. It is only correct to say that we delay because even after one or two months, as soon as money is available, the universities still receive their grants.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mudenda (Dundumwenzi): Mr Speaker is the hon. Minister of Education aware that at the time the Great East Road Campus was built, it was meant for about 2,500 students and the same infrastructure, now, accommodates more than 5,000 students? In my opinion, Sir, that compromises the quality of education which is being offered there. If he is aware, what measures is he putting in place to decongest the 
university?

Mr Speaker: I am not sure whether that question is in line with the sustenance measures asked for in this particular question. However, if the hon. Minister has a stock in trade answer, he may respond.

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, I am aware of the abnormal enrolment at the Great East Road Campus. It is for this reason that the Government intends to decongest this university by opening up a third university.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Muleya (Choma): Mr Speaker, when the university was opened, it was fully financed by the Government. Obviously, over time, it went into deficit financing with the introduction of commerce and business at the university. How much of this will be able to sustain the university and make sure that the level of financing is adequate to provide security and stability in order to prevent standards at the University of Zambia from falling further?

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, I explained that the University of Zambia was under re-organisation. It is hoped that with the new management in place, it will overcome some of these problems which were experienced by the previous management. Accordingly, questions such as the one being raised will be answered by the new management once in place. In addition, Mr Speaker, the university has developed a strategic plan which, in fact, once implemented, will give solutions to such problems.

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Zulu (Chadiza): Sir, I recently saw on television an announcement that the University of Zambia was going to transfer the School of Education to in-service centres like Chalimbana. My question is: do these in-service institutions 

[Mr Zulu]

have the capacity to handle such an immense programme? The School of Education, actually, is one of the largest.

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, currently, the two teacher training colleges, that is COSECO and Nkrumah, are running diploma courses. What is missing in duration and content is just one year. We have the lecturers and the infrastructure. So, there is no difficulty or problem in upgrading the two institutions so that they can offer degree programmes.

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr L. J. Ngoma (Sinda): Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister of Education aware that the liberalised system of entry into the university has led to intelligent and bright pupils from poor families being unable to access Government bursaries? This is so because, at the end of the day, there are a lot of students who are admitted into the university. Is he also aware that this has caused severe strain on the university in terms of electricity, water and accommodation where students sleep in rooms like sardines? If he is aware, what measures has the Government put in place to redress the situation?

Mr Speaker: The hon. Member is aware that, that question is irrelevant, but the hon. Minister may answer it if he so wishes.

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, I will be very brief.

Perhaps, the hon. Member needs extra information. Besides being invited to the office for more information, I am aware that the quality is not being compromised at all. The entry requirements remain the same. In addition, the Government has continued to sponsor close to 4,000 students, not only at 75 per cent rate but also at 100 per cent rate.

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

ZAWA

179. Mr Shepande asked the Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources how much money was released by ZAWA for local projects along the Kafue Flats in Nangoma Parliamentary Constituency.

The Deputy Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources (Mr Silavwe): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform this august House that there was no money released by Zambia Wildlife Authority for the local projects along the Kafue Flats in Nangoma Parliamentary Constituency. Zambia Wildlife Authority does not directly fund local projects. It does so indirectly through the Community Resource Boards and other similar community groupings or representatives. The Community Resource Board falling under Nangoma 

Parliamentary Constituency is Blue Lagoon.

As at 31st July 2002, Zambia Wildlife Authority owed Blue Lagoon Community Resource Board a sum of K26,055,957. The new management of ZAWA has put in place plans to start liquidating the amounts owing to all community resource boards in the whole country starting in August 2002. By 31st December 2002, all outstanding amounts will have been paid in full.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Shepande: Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister explain why this money is being withheld by the State.

Mr Silavwe: Mr Speaker, as I have explained, Zambia Wildlife Authority does not fund directly the projects in the communities. The communities have an agreement with Zambia Wildlife Authority to concession the hunting blocks. After this has been done, part of the money that is realised goes to the development of the projects in their various communities. We are all aware that for the past two years, there have been no hunting concessions, hence, this problem.

Mr Ng’uni (Chama South): Mr Speaker, I would like the hon. Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources to tell this august House and the nation what benefits they would like to plough into the local communities where ZAWA, in conjunction with the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources, have turned people into slaves where animals have become more important than human beings and yet they cause so much damage.

Mr Silavwe: Mr Speaker, I have just been explaining the reason why these projects could not take place in various communities. This is because last year the Government banned the concessioning of hunting blocks. This is the reason why this problem arose. If you want more information, my ministry has to research to find out why this was done last year.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Haakaloba (Magoye): Mr Speaker, I would like to take advantage of the response by the hon. Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources to say that in Chimwaikila, in Magoye Constituency, a number of people have been killed by crocodiles and ZAWA …

Laughter.

Mr Haakaloba: I am not referring to ‘hon. Crocodile’, I am referring to the actual crocodiles which are attacking people in Chimwaikila.

Laughter.

Mr Haakaloba: I am saying that ZAWA has no capacity to control this because they say they have no funds. What measures is the hon. Minister putting in place to protect the people in Chimwaikila?

Mr Silavwe: Mr Speaker, I will attempt to answer the hon. Member’s question.

Sir, two months ago, the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources issued licences allowing ZAWA to crop the crocodiles in the areas which were reported, but up to now, ZAWA is still waiting for the funds to be released by the Ministry of Finance and National Planning.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo): Mr Speaker, there was a specific question asked which, I think, he must give an answer to. How much money was released? He said the money would have been released by August and at the same time he says no money was released. Sir, this problem at Nangoma where the local authorities are owed money by ZAWA is all over the country. We have been told that the money was supposed to be remitted by August. Today is the last day of October and still there is no money. We would like to know the correct position.

Mr Speaker: I got the answer, very clearly, from the hon. Minister. If he is willing, not to repeat, but emphasise that portion of his reply, he may do so.

Mr Silavwe: Mr Speaker, I am not willing because I have already given the answer.

Thank you, Sir.

Laughter.

Mrs Masebo (Chongwe): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister because I heard him say that there was a ban. Can he tell us what necessitated Government to impose the ban and what the effect of the ban on hunting licences is.

Mr Silavwe: Mr Speaker, this is a new question. I have to go and research on how this ban came about.

I thank you, Sir.

Interruptions.

Mr Speaker: Order! The Chair is satisfied that this question is relevant because you mentioned the ban on hunting in your reply. All the House wants to know is the reason for imposing the ban by your ministry and that is relevant. Could you answer, please.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Silavwe: Mr Speaker, I said this is a new question and I need to go and research on why the ban was imposed.

I thank you, Sir.

Interruptions.

Mr Speaker: Order! Is the Cabinet Minister available? 

Mr Sibetta: Mapushi, you can answer!

Mr Speaker: Order! Well, the hon. Cabinet Minister for the ministry is not here and His Honour the Vice President is not here either. So, that question may not be, therefore, attempted because it will not help much.

Mr Kabaghe (Matero): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister made it very clear in his answer that for the past two years funding to ZAWA has been a problem. This is because of delays in concessioning of hunting blocks. I do recall that, during our last sitting, there were some announcements that were done and later on cancelled. We are going into a third year, where is the problem in concessioning hunting blocks?

Mr Silavwe: Mr Speaker, on that matter, it is a pity that my Minister is not here …

Laughter.

Mr Silavwe: In two weeks time, names of those who have been given licences will be announced.

I thank you, Sir.

REHABILITATION OF T6 ROAD

180. Mr Mwanza (Mkaika) asked the Minister of Works and Supply when the T6 road in Katete in the Eastern Province will be rehabilitated.

The Deputy Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Katema): Mr Speaker, my ministry intends to carry out the rehabilitation of the road between Katete and Chanida. However, due to lack of funds, this cannot be done.

In the 2002 Budget, no provision was made for the rehabilitation of the road. However, for the year 2003, the ministry has made a budget of K5.8 billion for periodic maintenance of the road. This is subject to further scrutiny and approval by the Ministry of Finance and National Planning.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mwanza: Mr Speaker, what measures has the ministry put in place to, at least, patch up the road from Katete Stores to the junction of the Boma?

The Minister of Works and Supply (Dr Sondashi): Mr Speaker, it is surprising that patching up of the road has not been done. I instructed all provincial roads engineers to patch up the roads. If that has not been done in the Eastern Province, I will make a follow-up to ensure that the provincial roads engineer does that job.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nyirenda (Kasenengwa): Mr Speaker, apart from the instructions, how much money has been released to patch up the roads?

Dr Sondashi: Mr Speaker, we are using the little resources that we have. As you know there were no estimates for patching up roads. We are using the little money we have in the ministry.

I thank you, Sir.

EASTERN CO-OPERATIVE UNION

181. Mr Mwale (Chipata) asked the Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives:

(a)    what measures have been taken to revamp co-operatives in Chipata;

(b)    what the status of the assets of the Eastern Co-operatives Union is; and 

(c)    whether the former employees of the Eastern Co-operatives Union have since been paid their benefits.

The Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives (Mr Kamwendo): Mr Speaker, the following measures have been taken to revamp co-operatives in Chipata:

    (i)    the ministry had posted three co-operatives             officers to Chipata to strengthen co-                operatives formation and training;

    (ii)    the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-                operatives has made preparations for             training programmes to commence in 2003             for co-operators, board members and             directors of co-operatives to enhance             knowledge on co-operatives; and 

    (iii)    in order to weed out fake co-operatives             which have tarnished and hijacked the             
        good name and intentions of the co-                operatives movement, the Ministry of             Agriculture and Co-operatives will                 commence a countrywide inventory of co-            operatives.

The Eastern Co-operatives Union (ECU) has no assets. This is because the union management, without the approval of the union board members, irregularly sold off the assets. This information was obtained by my ministry which instituted investigations in 1998. The report on asset stripping and the sale of buildings that took place at ECU has since been handed over to the board, which is at liberty to seek court redress.

The former employees of the ECU have not been paid their benefits. The amount owed to them is K144,950,262.47.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwale: Mr Speaker, is the Government aware that at the time of the ECU’s demise, due to the Government’s influence, the Eastern Co-operative Union was a viable and going concern, employing over 5,000 people across the province. If that is so, what is Government doing to compensate these 5,000 people who are, now, languishing, and are in dire straits? The employees used to pay school fees for their children and feed themselves, but found themselves jobless overnight not because of their carelessness or inability, but because of the carelessness of the Government.

The Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives (Mr Sikatana): Sir, the ministry is fully aware of the sad developments that led to the demise of the ECU that was one of the strongest in the country. Unions are private organisations and have their own boards that regulate the conduct of their affairs. It is boards that have led to the demise of unions. We do assist in many ways, but there are limits because, as private organisations, they are always the first to argue against what they call Government interference even when it is well-intended.

Sir, we can only take measures to ensure that the newly established co-operatives do not abuse the interests of the members of those unions. We cannot, however, assist in the compensation of any losses incurred by members or employees of unions.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Shumina (Mangango): Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that the destruction of the co-operative movement in Zambia arose out of the MMD policy to abolish co-operatives in 1991?

Hon. Government Members: You were there!

Laughter

Mr Sikatana: Mr Speaker, I am aware of the mismanagement of the co-operative movement. This is why we are, now, seriously considering an exercise that will relieve the co-operative movement of abuse and of fake and ghost co-operatives.

I am also aware that the hon. Member who asked the question was part and parcel of the administration then. It would be best if he were assigned to ensure the recovery of any losses incurred therefrom.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Situmbeko: But he was not a Minister!

Mr Speaker: This is a very popular subject.

Captain Moono (Chilanga): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the Government what it is doing over those Government officials who, together with politicians, contributed to the decline of co-operatives in the Eastern Province, particularly the PACO who used to ferry fertiliser into Malawi.

Mr Sikatana: Mr Speaker, the Government is doing all it can to bring to book all who are involved in shady activities. 

As regards the particular case that has been cited, I would like to have further and better particulars so that I can get back to the House with a better answer.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Shakafuswa (Katuba): Mr Speaker, emerging from the answer which has been given by the Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives, ‘honourable cow dung,’ …

Laughter

Mr Shakafuswa: … is the hon. Minister aware that …

Mr Speaker: Order! You may withdraw …

Laughter

Mr Speaker: … that very unpalatable word you used, now.

Laughter

Mr Shakafuswa: Thank you, Mr Speaker, for your timely advice. I withdraw the unparliamentary name.

Laughter.

Mr Shakafuswa: Mr Speaker, I was just asking the hon. Minister whether, in his wisdom, he has found out that over 
the years, there have been politicians …

Mr Mabenga: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mabenga: Mr Speaker, I rise to raise a very serious point of order, whether it is in order for the hon. Member of Parliament to call an hon. Minister …

Hon. UPND Members: He has withdrawn!

Mr Mabenga: No, …

Mr Speaker: Order! I have already ruled on that and I have already asked him to withdraw …

Mr Mabenga: He said it …

Hon. UPND Members: Order! Order!

Interruptions.

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Mabenga resumed his seat.

Mr Speaker: I have already called on the hon. Member of Parliament for Katuba to withdraw and he withdrew it. He did not say it again. 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: I did not hear the hon. Member use those words again.

Mr Mabenga: He did!

Hon. UPND Members: No, no!

Interruptions.

Mr Speaker: The hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing may give the Chair the benefit of great understanding.

Laughter.

Mr Speaker: I listen to each one of you very attentively …

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Speaker: … and if the Chair is wrong, I will have 

[Mr Speaker]

recourse to the typed transcripts tomorrow. If the hon. Minister is right, I would have to tender, at that time, my apologies to him. So, we will watch and I will look up the transcripts to see if the hon. Member of Parliament for Katuba repeated the word that he had withdrawn. But I am very sure that he did not.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Will the hon. Member for Katuba continue, please.

Mr Mabenga: First, he must also apologise!

Mr Shakafuswa: Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. Hon. Mabenga, …

Hon. UPND Members: No!

Mr Shakafuswa: All right!

Mr Speaker, my question was whether the honourable and learned Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives is aware that the demise of co-operatives has been as a result of politicising the co-operative movement. For example, we find people in politics such as branch chairmen involved in the distribution and administration of co-operatives. They consider their membership in the unions as beneficial and even distribute fertiliser. 

In my constituency, the MMD District Chairman has been there since the UNIP era. If you look at the result of Central Province, about 3,000 co-operatives owe you a lot of money and it is the same with all co-operatives.

Hon. UPND Members: Shame!

Mr Mabenga: The question has already been asked!

Mr Shakafuswa: That is the question. Hon. Mabenga, if you have never been to school that is your own fault.

Laughter.

Mr Speaker: Order! Hon. Members are expected to conduct their affairs with cool and …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: … sober minds.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Any form of harsh presentation will not get 

us anywhere. The Chair, however, wishes to rule that the question is not relevant to the subject we are discussing. It is 
irrelevant to the question on the Order Paper.

Mr Ng’uni: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives aware that there are certain national assets that belonged to the co-operative in Eastern Province which were deliberately and intentionally stripped and sold? I do not know if these assets were given to the ECU. The people of Eastern Province have stood up and requested the Government to intervene over some of the assets that have not been fully paid for so that they can be sold under normal circumstances.

Mr Sikatana: Mr Speaker, I do remember, very well, that a similar question was asked yesterday and we said that, yes, the assets were sold by officials of ECU ...

Mr Tetamashimba: Mr Ngulube.

Mr Sikatana: There was nothing we could do because it is a private institution, but measures are being taken by the boards of those unions and the Government will support them.

Thank you, Sir.

Mrs Banda: Mr Speaker, the leadership in the Eastern Province is aware of all the assets that have been bought and some of the assets are held by former Ministers in the MMD Government. Can the hon. Minister allow the leaders in Eastern Province to deal with the problem since they are delaying. We can grab the assets and assess them if they do not show us the money.

Mr Sikatana: Mr Speaker, I do not believe that the Government can entertain lawlessness. Action should be taken by co-operators themselves.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr P. G. Phiri: Mr Speaker, I would like to know if the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives is aware that the sale of the district union assets did not benefit any primary society at all, including the members of the primary society themselves. What measures has the ministry put in place to assist the primary societies and the members who are unable to even get a single grain of fertiliser?

Mr Speaker: Order! It is quite clear that this question has been exhausted because the hon. Minister has, at least, on two occasions answered that concern you are expressing.

TERMINATION OF CONTRACTS

182. Mr E. M. M. Musonda (Lupososhi) asked the Minister of Finance and National Planning how much has 

been paid to the following for the termination of their contracts:

(a)    the former Managing Director, Development Bank of Zambia Limited;

(b)    the former Managing Director, Zambia National Commercial Bank Limited;

(c)    the former Director-General, Zambia Revenue Authority; and 

(d)    the former Secretary, Zambia National Tender Board.

The Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Kalifungwa): Mr Speaker, in response to question 182, the former Managing Director of Development Bank of Zambia, Mr Dipak Malik, has been paid according to his contract.

Mr Speaker, the former Managing Director of Zambia National Commercial Bank Limited, Mr Samuel Musonda; the former Commissioner-General of Zambia Revenue Authority, Mr Kelvin Donovan; and the former Director-General of the Zambia National Tender Board, Mr Geoffrey Musonda, have not been paid.

With regard to Mr Musonda, former Managing Director of the Zambia National Commercial Bank, the bank has not yet generated documentation on his contract to determine his terminal benefits. So, when the mode of payment is determined, he will be paid his terminal benefits.

Mr Speaker, the former Commissioner-General of the Zambia Revenue Authority, Kelvin Donovan, was actually paid through the British Aid. He has already relocated to Lesotho.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr E. M. M. Musonda: Mr Speaker, arising from the answer given by the hon. Deputy Minister, I would like to know how much the Managing Director of the Development Bank of Zambia was paid and what the terms of his contract were. I also want to know what will be due to the Director-General of the Tender Board.

Mr Speaker: Order! What I am going to say is not a set up. The Chair allowed this question to be asked in this manner to afford me an opportunity to remind hon. Members that matters of contracts between employers and employees, in terms of salaries and emoluments, are actually confidential.

Interruptions.

Mr Speaker: Order! They are confidential. That is why the hon. Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning answered in the way he did. These are confidential matters. What I am saying is not true for constitutional officers like your good selves. Your emoluments are gazetted for the public to know. So, that is the difficulty the hon. Minister has in this regard.

USA DOLLARS

183. Mr Samukonga asked the Minister of Finance and National Planning when the law will be enforced against any company or individual quoting their services in USA dollars.

Mr Kalifungwa: Mr Speaker, there is no specific legislation providing for sanctions against persons or individuals quoting their services in dollars. However, the Bank of Zambia, pursuant to its statutory responsibilities and powers to regulate all matters relating to the currency of Zambia, has issued a policy directive that requires all transactions conducted in Zambia to be quoted and settled in kwacha which is the legal tender.

In the meantime, the Bank of Zambia is working on regulations that will specifically provide sanctions against the practice of non-authorised dealers quoting and transacting in foreign currency. These regulations will be issued through a Statutory Instrument under the Bank of Zambia Act.

Mr Speaker, the Bank of Zambia is currently undertaking consultations with major stakeholders and has further forged partnership with other supervisory and regulatory authorities in Zambia with a view to enforcing the policy directive by ensuring that regulated business entities are monitored. Those who derogate from the policy will risk losing their licences.

In addition, the Bank of Zambia has issued a notice in regard to dollarisation. With your permission, Sir, I may quote from that.

‘… it should also be pointed out that the act of quoting and making payments for domestic transactions in foreign currencies undermines the effectiveness of monetary policy in our economy. This stems from the simple fact that foreign currencies are issued and controlled by other authorities rather than the national authorities. In other words, dollarisation subordinates a country’s monetary policy to other countries.’

Clearly, this is not what the Zambian Government intended with liberalisation. Moreover, liberalisation is not synonymous with lack of rules let alone disregard for the rule of law. Under the Zambian law, the kwacha is the legal tender in Zambia. Consistent with the Government policy of liberalisation, the law also provides that any persons wishing 

[Mr Kalifungwa]

to undertake any foreign exchange business can do so by obtaining the requisite licence from the Bank of Zambia. Indeed, since doing away with foreign exchange controls in 1994, the Bank of Zambia has not and does not unreasonably deny issuance of such licences. 

Mr Speaker, the Bank of Zambia would, therefore, like to advise the business community and members of the public that they will continue to freely transact in foreign exchange with authorised dealers as before and in line with international practices. This also means that individuals and business houses will continue to freely hold foreign exchange accounts.

Sir, furthermore, the international practice of effecting foreign exchange payments to non-residents as well as receiving payments from them in foreign currencies, through authorised dealers, shall continue without hindrance.

In conclusion, the Bank of Zambia would like to assure members of the public and the business community that authorities are committed to maintaining a liberal foreign exchange that is supportive of a stable and competitive exchange rate. The Bank of Zambia is, therefore, appealing to all the relevant stakeholders to join hands with the authorities to bring about a stable kwacha which is one of the key ingredients to Zambia’s economic growth and development.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Samukonga: Mr Speaker, I am quite satisfied with the elaborate answer that has been given by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning. On this issue, I would like to commend Government for making some frantic efforts.

I have seen the advert by the hon. Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry in the newspaper. Sir, why are the service providers, for instance, air lines, cell phone companies and hotels so arrogant that they have failed to heed the directive of the Government?

Mr Kalifungwa: Mr Speaker, in my response to the question, I stated that there are certain categories authorised to deal in foreign exchange. Those companies are authorised.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze): Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning confirm that there will be no sanctions, for the time being, that will be applied to individuals or private organisations that will quote in dollars because there is no law to effect the sanctions.

Mr Kalifungwa: Mr Speaker, I have said that measures are being put in place and a statutory instrument will be issued, at a later stage, to effect those regulations.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sichilima (Mbala): Mr Speaker, the statutory instrument should be signed by the relevant authorities for the Bank of Zambia to effect this as it has taken too long. What has the Ministry of Finance and National Planning done because some companies are too arrogant, for instance, cell phone companies.

Hon. Members: Question!

Mr Sichilima: What has the ministry done to ensure that relevant authorities issue the statutory instrument?

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Kasonde): Mr Speaker, this is a very important debate and I think we should explain in detail. According to the Bank of Zambia Act, the only authority responsible for our currency is the Bank of Zambia Board run by the Bank of Zambia. That is the only authority in this regard, not the Ministry of Finance and National Planning. The empowerment has been given to the Bank of Zambia to act.

Mr Speaker, I, as Minister, can only take administrative action on the advice of the Bank of Zambia. When the Bank of Zambia advises me, then I take action. I cannot do that prior to being advised by the bank. I would also say that those difficult and arrogant companies should read the law. Actually, the law is there and it does not recognise any other medium of exchange in this country other than the kwacha. So, quoting dollars in shop windows and statements to customers in this country is inconsistent with the Bank of Zambia Act. When advice is received on my desk, action will be taken.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Tetamashimba (Solwezi Central): Mr Speaker, I am very happy with the answer from the hon. Minister that no transactions should be quoted in USA dollars. Can I find out from the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning why loans given to people by DBZ, including the hon. Minister and the Vice-President were quoted in dollars.

Laughter.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter.

Mr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, the law, as it is at the moment, does not stop an agreement between two parties to be signed 

[Mr Kasonde]

in dollars. The medium of exchange where you transact business is what should be in kwacha. Otherwise, you can quote in yen, pounds, or any other currency. That is not against the law in itself. However, if you want to transact day to day business with your customers in dollars, that will make it very difficult for us to control monetary policy because we cannot control the volume of exchange on the market, inflation and all these factors, as my colleague said.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sibetta: Mr Speaker, this is a storm in a cup of tea. Can the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, Mr Emmanuel Kasonde, confirm or deny that, in actual fact, some of the people mentioned in Question No. 182 and one of the previous governors have been paid their salaries in dollars and also that this Government is the main culprit on the issue of dollars.

Mr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, I do not think so unless the contract itself, as we heard, was prescribed in dollar terms. I do not think people would normally be paid in dollars.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nzowa: Mr Speaker, I would like the hon. Minister to advise the consumers in the meantime after the pronouncements that have been made by both the Government and the Bank of Zambia. You have also told us that it is up to the consumers and those who advertise. In the meantime, what is your advice to the nation and the consumers? What action should they take, in the interim, before a Statutory Instrument is issued? What should consumers do, especially with those cellular phone quotations, M-Net quotations and fees in some schools?

Mr Kasonde: Sir, my advice to every Zambian is to deal in kwacha as much as possible. Our kwacha is freely convertible with the dollar. So, I do not know why people should insist on demanding dollars in local transactions. The kwacha is the normal currency and I think we shall stick to the kwacha. If people insist on pushing the Government to regulate, we will regulate. But, if society can discipline itself, there will be no need for a specific law.

Thank you, Sir.

WOMEN’S CLUBS IN MUMBWA DISTRICT

184. Mr Shepande asked the hon. Minister of Community Development and Social Welfare:

(a)    how many women’s clubs were being funded by the ministry in Mumbwa District 

    and what the names of these clubs were; and

(b)    how much was given to each club between January, 2001 and July, 2002.

The Minister of Community Development and Social Welfare (Mr Chibamba): I wish to inform the House that there were only two women’s clubs which were funded by the ministry in Mumbwa District and the names of these clubs are Sala Women’s Development Group and Mwembeshi Women’s Club.

Mr Speaker, the Sala Women’s Development Group was given a sum of K1,180,000 and the other, Mwembeshi Women’s Club, received K2,205,000. Mr Speaker, the funding to the two women’s clubs was done during the period of October to December, 2001.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Shepande: Mr Speaker, given the fact that only two clubs were assisted and only a total of K3,385,000 was disbursed, is the hon. Minister satisfied with the performance of his ministry with respect to these responsibilities to the women, not only in Mumbwa, but the country as a whole?

Mr Chibamba: Mr Speaker, the sum involved is not good enough, especially when you talk about Central Province as a whole and Mumbwa as a district. My ministry would like to do better than this although I would like the hon. Members to understand that we depend on funding from our Government which has other responsibilities apart from our ministry.

Sir, while I am still at that ministry, I hope to improve on this and utilise HIPC funds, especially when they are made available to us, to reach as many parts of our country as possible. Our women are very hard working in these clubs. I have visited a number of them. All they need is our officers to go round and encourage them.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr L. L. Phiri: Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister tell this august House if the ministry will still continue distributing hammer mills the way they used to. What will happen to those MMD party cadres who got hammer mills which they have not paid for?

Mr Chibamba: Mr Speaker, much as we would like to continue with the programme of hammer mills, I am sure hon. Members will agree with me that in the Yellow Book for this year, there is no such facility. Previously, money was made available to bring hammer mills …

Mr Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

Mr Chibamba: Mr Speaker, when business was suspended, I was answering the question posed by the hon. Member of Parliament for Chipangali.

Sir, with regard to the question of hammer mills, sometime back, there was a deliberate move to give hammer mills to hon. Members of Parliament and money was made available at that time. Like I said before break, there is nothing allocated for hammer mills in the Yellow Book this year. For the past 
two years, the Chinese Government was very kind to this country. They donated some hammer mills, through the Ministry of Community Development and Social Welfare, that were distributed to various constituencies although some of the hammer mills have not reached the targeted constituencies. I am trying to follow up this issue with the officials concerned since I was not in the ministry at that time. There are certain hammer mills which have ended up in the wrong constituencies. For some of them, we may not even have details but we are trying to normalise that.

Sir, I do not think there is any hammer mill, as far as my ministry is concerned, which was given to party cadres. All hammer mills were given in the name of community development and they were given to women’s clubs, except in some cases. As such, they still belong to the Ministry of Community Development and Social Welfare until those clubs complete the payments which, in some cases, have been very difficult to recover.

These hammer mills were in the hon. Members’ names, although some hon. Members went to constituencies and told the people that they bought the hammer mills themselves. They did not say they were from the ministry. That is why, in some cases, party cadres behaved like that.

Thank you, Sir.

Mrs Wina (Nalolo): Mr Speaker, I do not know whether the hon. Minister is aware that there is a pattern in this country where when it comes to allocation of funds to different sectors, the women’s groups are always considered last and they get the smallest share. This happens even in our national budget. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether this trend will change so that we can allocate adequate money to women’s clubs because these clubs play a very vital role in community development.

Mr Chibamba: Mr Speaker, I cannot answer questions dealing with the national budget. This is not my line of jurisdiction. But I wish to assure the hon. Member that our Republican President, Mr Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC., has placed a lot of emphasis on recognising the role of women 

in our country. There have been a lot of appointments of women as hon. Ministers and to many other positions. Just yesterday, we ratified the appointment of a lady to be Clerk of the National Assembly. So, this is a clear sign that everything is going on well in the direction of recognising the importance of women. For my ministry, there is no discrimination whatsoever. In fact, I attach more importance to women’s clubs than to men’s clubs, if at all they are there, because I know that the women will produce and the men will eat.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Sibetta: Sir, the hon. Minister is answering very well. He is a colleague of mine I have known for a long time. Can the hon. Minister take the opportunity to allay fears of the nation and this House that all is not well in the ministry. The members of staff are rebellious. We would like to hear from the hon. Minister on this matter.

Mr Deputy Speaker: I think the question is about women’s clubs and, therefore, that supplementary question is irrelevant.

Laughter.

Mr R. J. N. Banda (Petauke): Mr Speaker, what criterion is used to disburse funds to these clubs? Secondly, are these funds grants or loans?

Mr Chibamba: Mr Speaker, the clubs fall under the Department of Community Development and there are a lot of mechanisms in place on how they arrive at granting this money through a number of stakeholders that we have. Everything possible is done to ensure that there is no discrimination whatsoever in granting this money. Sometimes, we give loans and other times we give grants depending on the situation. We have so many facilities where people can access some of this money, including the Macro-Banker’s Trust which some people may not know is under the Ministry of Community Development and Social Welfare and many others. 

So, if you are interested and your constituency is, please, sometimes let us not just bring these questions to Parliament. Feel free to come and have a cup of coffee or tea with me and my officials so that you can have details.

Mr Tetamashimba: We fear that you will be maligned that you are in the Opposition.

Laughter.

Mr Chibamba: I want to assure you that this Government is about everybody, whether MMD or Opposition. You are free to come to our offices. Let us not ask questions for the sake of the press to hear that we said something in Parliament. 

Come and get more details at the office.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear! {mospagebreak}

TIMBER INDUSTRY

185. Mr Simenda asked the Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources:

(a)    how many foreign companies in the timber industry were awarded licences to operate in the Western 
    Province between January, 2001 and July, 2002;

(b)    whether they were awarded any concessions and, if so, what criteria were used to award these concessions; and

(c)    what measures have been taken to protect people from being abused by these companies.

Mr Silavwe: Mr Speaker, I wish to inform this august House that:

(a)    no licences were issued to foreign companies during the period January, 2001 to July, 2002, as no foreign company had applied for licences;

(b)    no concessions were awarded to foreign companies as none were given licences. If there are any, they should be operating illegally; and

(c)    Cap. 199 of the Laws of Zambia provides for the conditions which a licencee should adhere to in the management of the forest licence. For instance: 

    (i)    Local people should have access to the             forests and forest products, for example,             when they are looking for mushroom,             caterpillars and so on, available in their             respective forest areas; and

    (ii)    prior to issuance of forest licence, there             are certain conditions that have to be met             through a consultative process which             involves: letter of consent from the                 respective Chief of the area; letter of             consent from the council of the area; letter             of recommendation from the principal             extension officer of the province;                 certificate of incorporation as a registered             company in Zambia; proof that the                 applicant possesses saw milling machines             and equipment; map of the area of                 operation drawn to the scale of 1:50,000;

        investment plan and plan of operation;             official application letter to the Director             of Forestry by the applicant; financial proof             to show that the company can run saw             milling and logging operations by                 providing a bank statement from a                 recognised and registered bank in Zambia             which should have a minimum of K10             million; environmental Impact Assessment             Report as per provision of Environment             Protection and Pollution Control Act of             1990; and letter of consent from Zambia             Wildlife Authority if the area falls in a             Game Management Area as per provision             of the Wildlife Act of 1998.

    (iii)    presently, my ministry is finalising joint             forest management guidelines which             involve communities in the sustainable             management of forest resources and                 sharing the revenue accrued from the sale             of forest products. This is in line with the             new forest policy, which my ministry             adopted in 1998, which seeks to empower             local communities through cost and benefit             1sharing with the Government under a joint             forest management. Implementation of the             policy is taking place on a pilot basis in             five provinces, namely, Central,                 Copperbelt, Eastern, Luapula and                 Southern. Participatory forest management             planning is already taking place involving             selected communities in the five provinces;

    (iv)    to enhance the management of the forest             estate, my ministry is scheduled to table a             Cabinet memorandum seeking to review             the management and issuance of forest             licenses in order to establish a system that             will ensure efficient and effective                 utilisation of the forest resources which is             contributing positively to the national             economy; and

    (v)    once the new Forest Act No. 7 of 1999 has             been activated, the saw millers and                 communities will have access to the                 forestry development and community             funds. This will be effective with the             establishment of the Zambia Forestry             Commission. The European Commission             working on the transformation of the             Forestry Department into the Forestry             Commission started work on the                 programme in January, 2002, under the             project entitled Forest Support 

[Mr Silavwe]

        Programme. They are supposed to                 conclude this by December, 2003.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simenda: Sir, I am surprised to hear from the hon. Minister that he does not know that there are foreigners who are ferrying timber from our forests, particularly in Western Province. Can you, please, investigate this issue. The question I want to ask is: are you considering some incentives to encourage these timber merchants to set up factories in these places to produce furniture, which can be sold to the people in Zambia?

The Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources (Mrs Nsingo): Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for the advice. However, we are not aware of any foreign companies which have been licensed to cut timber. If they are there, then, they are operating illegally.

Hon. Opposition Members: What are you going to do?

Mrs Nsingo:  Now that we know, we are going to do something.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, obviously, the harvesting of our forestry products is enriching a lot of, mostly, foreign people. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what measures they have put in place to ensure that there is a serious programme of reforestation in this country.

I ask this question bearing in mind that one important nursery, Chikoleka Nursery, is completely in disuse and yet, that is a place where most of our seedlings could have been grown to encourage reforestation. I also wonder whether these foreign harvesters of our forest products are also obliged to invest where they are reaping.

Mrs Nsingo: Mr Speaker, my ministry has already prepared a Cabinet Memorandum …

Mr Sibetta: With your Deputy Minister?

Mrs Nsingo: … and we would like to present it to Cabinet so that the harvesting of our timber is done in collaboration with the communities. This will enable us to share the responsibilities and benefits. This is what we are doing, Sir.

With regard to Chikoleka Nursery, that is where we are going to put up a commission which will look after our forests 

and benefit our people in all forest areas.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Kalumiana: Mr Speaker, I am disappointed with the answers that are coming from the hon. Minister. I suppose these are supposed to be researched answers. I want to find out the following from the hon. Minister:

(a)    how these measures which they have put in place to protect the people are being enforced, particularly in Mongu District where the District Forest Officer has no transport. He moves on an old Suzuki motor bike and is irregularly supplied with fuel to cover a surface area of 1,075 Km²; and

(b)    who the investor in the Likon’ge Forestry Reserve is and whether it is true that he was not given some concessions.

Mrs Nsingo: Mr Speaker, as I said, the hon. Member is talking about capacity.

Hon. Opposition Members: Move closer to the microphone!

Mrs Nsingo: It is true when he says that the District Forestry Officer has no fuel. This is because we do not have money. Even transport is a problem. However, as soon as the commission comes into force, we will rectify all these problems. These are problems that we are aware of. We are doing something about them. That is why we have prepared a Cabinet Memorandum.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Shumina: Mr Speaker, for more than ten years now, the people of Western Province have been complaining about the destruction of their trees. You have failed to even conduct a survey. When do you think you are going …

Mr Zimba: Question!

Mr Shumina: That is how you betrayed Chiluba, keep quiet!

Laughter.

Mr Shumina: Mr Speaker, how does the ministry give concessions without carrying out a survey on trees to ensure that there is no destruction of our precious natural resource in Western Province?

Mrs Nsingo: Mr Speaker, as I said, we did not give any 

concessions this year because there is nobody who applied for concessions.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Shumina: I have given you the name of the person.

Mr Chibanga: Mr Speaker, I stand here on a very serious note. In Kalovia area, there is massive cutting down of trees by the Malawi Tobacco Growers Association which has opened up farms along the borderline. These are very big farms which are supposed to be utilised by the Zambian Government. They are stealing our trees in that area. What is the ministry going to do in order to stop the cutting down of trees in Kalovia area?

Mr Silavwe: Mr Speaker, as a ministry, we are very concerned with the destruction of our forests. That is why I would like to recommend to the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry that the exportation of timber must be banned.

We want to put things in place first. The manpower that we have in our ministry is not enough to cater for each and every province due to shortage of money. In this regard, we are trying to source some money …

Mr Sibetta: Point of clarification!

Laughter.

Mr Silavwe: … to enable us to reach the whole country. I agree with the hon. Member, but we do not have the capacity. However, we are trying to ensure that we get enough money from the Ministry of Finance and National Planning to enable us reach all these areas.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

MOMBOSHI POLICE POST

186. Mr Masowe (Chisamba) asked the Minister of Home Affairs when the Government will fund the construction of the Momboshi Community Police Post in Chisamba.

Mr Sakeni: Mr Speaker, the policy of our Government towards policing is to encourage communities to contribute by providing structures while the Government provides personnel. In the absence of contributions from the community, it becomes practically impossible for the police or, indeed, the Government to make headway with its limited resources. This is in the concept of community policing.

Even the Momboshi Community Police Post in Chisamba cannot take off because the community has not provided the necessary structures. Community policing will require the community to do that and the Government to provide 

personnel. There is also ZAMSIF through which the community can apply for building of structures within their given community.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Syakalima: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether he has given us a proper definition of community policing. I do not think that community policing is about communities providing buildings and the Government providing personnel. Could he ably define community policing.

Mr Sakeni: Mr Speaker, the concept of community policing was born through liaison between the communities and the Police Service. That is why in a given community like Lusaka, we have seen various community posts where communities have provided office accommodation and the Police Service has given manpower and service to that community. At the same time, the Government is not running away from its original concept of putting up police posts. Community policing is a concept where communities look at the security situation in their area and decide to put up something to secure their area. The Police Service will then help them. 

When we come to police stations, that is a Government programme and the Government is supposed to provide the funds. Even for the community posts, the Government can also come in when they have resources, but the community must put in something as well.

Mr Hachipuka: Mr Speaker, I am disappointed with the answer provided by the hon. Minister because I happen to have a farm at Momboshi and we have made arrangements for accommodation. The community has provided adequately as prescribed by the policy he is referring to. I think the hon. Minister should withdraw his statement because, perhaps, the matter has not reached his office. He has given a general position not specific to Momboshi. What the community has done is sufficient. I think he should comment in relation to that particular project of which I am aware as I am part of that community. We submitted papers to his ministry. He should not waffle.

Mr Deputy Speaker: There is no way the hon. Minister can withdraw his statement.

The Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Mapushi): Mr Speaker, it is true that the application for Momboshi has reached my office. I directed the Permanent Secretary to ensure that we attend to that request. However, these matters take a bit of time before they are formalised. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Chisamba.

Mr Masowe: Sir, I think my question has been covered by the hon. Minister.

Mr Sikota (Livingstone): Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that community policing is not about the structures and how the structures are built, but about the police going to live with the community and undertaking things like neighbourhood watches and so on. It has nothing to do with the building of structures. Is he aware of that? He is misleading the House by saying that it is about structures.

Mr Mapushi: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member for Livingstone is right. Community policing and community police are different concepts. On community policing, we are calling upon the community to help us police its affairs. The other concept encourages the community to participate in the affairs of security. In this case, the hon. Member for Livingstone will do very well, if he wants to contribute, to come to our office and help us in this matter.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: At the moment, we are discussing a police post and not policing.

Colonel Makumba (Sikongo): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister of Home Affairs what measures they have taken to post police officers to areas where facilities like office and residential accommodation are available.

Mr Deputy Speaker: We are talking about Chisamba, but if the hon. Minister wants, he can answer.

Mr Mapushi: Sir, thank you for your protection. The question is about Momboshi. However, generally speaking, where the communities provide buildings, my ministry is more than ready to move in with personnel to ensure that we give them protection. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, what the hon. Minister is saying concerning community policing worries me. Given that more than 95 per cent of the people in this country live below the poverty datum line, does it mean that those communities that are not able to construct structures will stay without any police protection? If not, can he state, from the taxes it is collecting, which police stations the Government is putting up to protect the citizens of this country.

Mr Mapushi: Mr Speaker, as a ministry, we are alive to the fact that not all communities have the same level of economic advantage. Those areas where we are convinced 

that people are not in a position, on their own, to donate buildings will be our priorities. Areas like Woodlands, where we are convinced and are aware that people can easily put up buildings, shall not be given priority on that policy.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

AIRSTRIP AT RUFUNSA

187. Mr Kayaba (Rufunsa) asked the Minister of Communications and Transport when the airstrip at Rufunsa will be opened.

The Deputy Minister of Communications and Transport (Mr Nsanda): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform this House that the New Deal Government, as part of its transport policy, intends to bring back to life all the existing and dilapidated infrastructure, be they road, rail, marine or air. In this spirit, funds will be secured from all possible sources to rehabilitate airports and aerodromes, including the Rufunsa Airstrip. However, the strategy is …

Mr Tetamashimba: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Tetamashimba: Mr Speaker, I stand on a very serious point of order and need your guidance. Can we know the official title of this Government. We have normally heard others saying ‘MMD Government’, especially up to December, 2001. Now, we are hearing ‘New Deal Government’. What is the official title of this Government in this House? Is it MMD Government or New Deal Government? I need your serious ruling.

Interruptions.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order! The hon. Minister on the Floor has taken note of that. 

Will he continue, please.

Mr Nsanda: Sir, funds will be secured from all possible sources to rehabilitate airports and aerodromes, including the Rufunsa Airstrip. However, the strategy is to prioritise the works and begin with busy and revenue generating provincial airports and other economically strategic aerodromes. The income raised from these airports can be ploughed back into rehabilitating less active airstrips such as Rufunsa, which, on their own, are not economically viable but are important in the overall delivery of social services to the residents.

I thank you, Mr Speaker. {mospagebreak}

SATELITE DISHES

188. Mr Ntundu (Gwembe) asked the Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services: 

(a)    when satellite dishes will be procured and installed in the Gwembe/Munyumbwe area;

(b)    when the mobile coverage facility by the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation will be extended to rural areas; and 

(c)    why the Zambia Information Services in the Gwembe Parliamentary Constituency covers public officials and co-operating partners more than ordinary citizens.

The Deputy Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services (Mr Chipili): Mr Speaker, there has not been much progress on the installation of satellite television in Zambia. The House will recall that I had submitted that my ministry was working out tender procedures with foreign companies which were biding for the project. 

Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the House that my ministry has hit a snag in the context that all companies interested in the programme are insisting that the Zambian Government demonstrates its commitment by putting up a US$1 million upfront payment before they can move on site. The ministry is, up to date, trying to raise these funds and as soon as we have raised these funds, we will …

Mr Lubinda: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, I rise on a very serious point of order. Not too long ago we were talking about dollarising this country. I wonder if the hon. Minister is in order to be referring to figures in dollar in this august House where all of us should be discussing our currency, the kwacha. Are we playing double standards?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Deputy Speaker: It is a contract from outside. Continue!

Laughter.

Mr Chipili: I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Sir, the ministry is, to date, trying to raise these funds and as soon as we have raised these funds, we will ensure that mobile coverage by the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation is facilitated by the availability of video and audio 

links between a given site and the studios in either Lusaka or Kitwe. The link is provided by ZAMTEL and, at the moment, is available only along the line of rail and provincial centres. The coverage also calls for the movement of the outside broadcasting van to a local site. As of now, we have only one serviceable van.

Mr Speaker, I wish to add that the extension of mobile coverage to rural areas can only be made possible when ZAMTEL is able to provide the necessary links from such areas. This is so because ZNBC has no satellite links and the situation is likely to remain so for the unforeseeable future due to financial constraints the corporation is currently encountering.

Mr Speaker, I admit that the Zambia Information Services in the Gwembe Parliamentary Constituency covers public officials and co-operating partners more than ordinary citizens. This is so because public officials and co-operating partners tend to be better equipped with transport and other means of communication facilities that enable them to access the media thereby making it appear like there is a deliberate move to publicise their activities other than those of the community. 

However, Mr Speaker, the deliberate policy is that Zambia Information Services should, as much as possible, function as a two-way communication channel between citizens and their Government. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sikota: Mr Speaker, could the hon. Minister confirm that measures will be taken to ensure that journalists do not have to rely on transport from the people they are covering so that professionalism is not compromised.

Mr Chipili: Mr Speaker, the Government is working towards measures to ensure that transport is made available throughout the districts when funds are made available.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Ntundu: Mr Speaker, I am sure that the hon. Minister is aware of the misleading and contradictory statements that have been reported by the Zambia Information Services in Gwembe, such as the closure of the Gwembe District Hospital which was not closed. 

Mr Speaker, I would like the hon. Minister to explain why the office of the Zambia Information Services in Gwembe has their information censored by the District Administrator before it is published. Why do they leave out important information such as the news that was confirmed in the constituency that, certainly, a family ate dog meat because of the hunger situation?

[Mr Ntundu]

I believe that the Zambia Information Services should report information as obtained from the ground …

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order! Do not debate.

Mr Ntundu: … to help the Government …

Mr Deputy Speaker: Do not debate, ask you question.

Mr Ntundu: I have already asked the question, give time.

Interruptions.

Mr Ntundu: Mr Speaker, I felt that the Zambia Information Services would assist the Government if they reported information as obtained on the ground. May the hon. Minister comment.

Mr Chipili: Mr Speaker, the official policy of Government is that Zambia Information Services transmits their stories to ZANA and then to ZNBC and never through the District Administrator because he is not part of the ministry.

As regards the other report, we would need to verify it because I have not heard about it myself. When need arises, we will come with a response to this House.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr P. G. Phiri: Mr Speaker, would the hon. Minister explain to us, in this House, why we do not listen to the district news from Chadiza as if there are no activities taking place there. What does he intend to do to improve the situation in that area?

Mr Chipili: Mr Speaker, I will verify whether there is no radio reception in Chadiza. I am aware that there is no television reception but there is an ongoing programme, and an interim one, which we have with CASAT. We have six more districts where we will be commissioning CASAT. So, the hon. Member may rest assured that something will be done.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nzowa: Mr Speaker, I would like the hon. Minister to clarify what he meant by saying one of the reasons why that project could not take place was because ZAMTEL had no satellite links. I come from ZAMTEL, and I would like to be educated on what he meant by that.

I am lost now.

Laughter.

Mr Chipili: Mr Speaker, basically, when you provide television service, there are television drops that are provided.

Laughter.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, please, control your laughter. We want to hear the answer.

Laughter.

Mr Chipili: Even if you had your satellite mechanism installed, without a link, nothing can happen. So, the provider of that link is ZAMTEL.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Sichinga: Mr Speaker, the question that has been raised by the hon. Member for Gwembe gives us an opportunity to raise important questions pertaining to Government policy with regard to providing communication to rural areas, including Gwembe and several other areas. I am thankful to the hon. Minister for giving us a fairly comprehensive response. Hon. Minister, we appreciate that. 

However, arising from that response, I would like to know what use is being made of what we refer to as Domestic Satellite, in brief, DOMSAT, which is used for communication with far-flung places such as Kaputa as well as other locations within Zambia which have had difficulties with communications. I want to know why it is not possible to extend that service through Domestic Satellite communication to Gwembe.

Secondly, the ITC policy, Sir, makes it difficult for us to understand what Government’s policy is. The ITC policy basically refers to Information and Communication Technology Policy by Government. Can the hon. Minister advise this House what the Government’s plans are in providing a communication backbone to enable rural areas to receive and communicate back to the centre, not only through television, but also radio communication as well as other means for the purposes of the Internet.

Could he just clarify for us. I am sure he will respond to some of the questions that Hon. Nzowa has raised. Zambia does have a satellite link even locally. Can he explain whether microwave systems cannot be used for the purposes that the hon. Minister has just explained to us.

Mr Chipili: Mr Speaker, that is a portfolio which falls under the Ministry of Communications and Transport. I am very sure that they will answer that.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Would you like to make your 

contribution, hon. Minister of Communications and Transport?

The Minister of Communications and Transport (Mr Mwape): Mr Speaker, the question of ITC and DOMSAT falls squarely under the Ministry of Communications and Transport. Right now, we have DOMSAT in place but it is not effective to cover the whole country. This morning, I exchanged notes with the Managing Director of ZAMTEL. We are trying to enhance the capability of DOMSAT so that the entire country can be covered. I was looking at the possible ways of raising the necessary resources to have the system enhanced.

If you give me one month, I will be back to the House with an answer.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

AGRICULTURAL EXTENSION AND
 VETERINARY OFFICERS

189. Mrs Wina asked the Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives: 

(a)    what is the staff establishment for agricultural extension officers and veterinary officers for his ministry’s office in the Nalolo Parliamentary Constituency; and

(b)    how many of these officers are stationed in the Nalolo Parliamentary Constituency.

The Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives (Mr Kamwendo): Mr Speaker, the staff establishment for agricultural extension assistants and veterinary assistants who are intended to operate in the Nalolo Parliamentary Constituency is as follows: three Block Extension Assistants; fifteen Camp Assistants; and thirteen Veterinary Assistants.

Currently, there is no single officer at block level. There are six camp assistants and five veterinary assistants stationed within Nalolo Parliamentary Constituency.

The process of recruiting more staff is already in motion. The full staff complement for Nalolo will thus be met when new staff have been recruited.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Next question.

Mr Sibetta: There is a supplementary!

Mr Deputy Speaker: She was too late. I am afraid.

Hon. UPND Members: Aah!

Mr Deputy Speaker: Too late. I did call out and she did not rise.

TEACHERS SPONSORED FOR FURTHER STUDIES

190. Mr Katoka (Mwinilunga East) asked the Minister of Education:

(a)    how many primary and secondary school teachers from the North-Western Province were sponsored for further studies at the University of Zambia between January 1998 and December, 2001, year by year; and

(b)    what the policy regarding sponsorship of teachers for further education is.

The Deputy Minister of Education (Mr Kasukumya): Mr Speaker, the number of primary and secondary school teachers from North-Western Province, who were sponsored for further studies at the University of Zambia, between January, 1998 and December 2001, year by year, is as follows:

The policy regarding sponsorship of teachers for further education is as follows:

(i)    Only teachers who are confirmed in appointment qualify for sponsorship;

(ii)    the course (training) must be relevant to the teacher’s current duties;

(iii)    sponsorship is only applicable to teachers who have served for three years;

(iv)    sponsorship depends on availability of funds to support training; and

(v)    self-sponsorship is encouraged by the ministry.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Katoka: Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister give us the total number that is allowed for teachers to be sponsored to university. Further, can he confirm that the policy that he has outlined will not be abused by sponsoring relatives like the case is in North-Western Province.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Education (Mr Mulenga): Mr Speaker, the number of teachers going for further studies is not predetermined. Each province is given a fixed number of teachers to go for in-service training and this is determined by the funds available under that Vote.

It is not true that, sometimes, those that are sponsored are favoured because each provincial educational officer has a committee which scrutinises those that are eligible. So, chances that relatives can be favoured are very slim, unless the hon. Member of Parliament for Mwinilunga East is ready to give evidence of such malpractices which we are quite ready to follow up.

Hon. UPND Members interjected.

Mr Sibetta: There is immunity!

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, I was merely appealing to the hon. Member of Parliament to afford Government a chance to investigate such malpractices. So, the hon. Member is not threatened at all.

Thank you, Sir.

Interruptions.

Mr Nyirenda: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister of Education aware that out of the qualifications listed for people to be sponsored for further education, there is no academic qualification? There are instances where a teacher who has served for five years does not have good ‘O’ levels but is sponsored for degree courses. The result is that we who run schools cannot take them on because they go for further studies without updating their academic qualifications. Is he aware of these problems?

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, teachers apply to universities and colleges for further training and these institutions have their own standards. So, I do not think it is correct to assume that those who go do not meet the required qualifications because each college has a committee which scrutinises all those who have to be admitted.

Especially in the case of the University of Zambia, I do not believe that the assertion is true because they are quite rigid when it comes to entry requirements.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Shemena: Mr Speaker, it is evident that there is a big complaint in the province about sponsorship and North-Western Province is a special case where departmental leaders do not emanate from the province and when the committee is formed, it is automatic that the people in the selection committee do not have regard for the locals in the province. What is the hon. Minister doing about this problem since he has been informed? We need a bigger percentage with regard to sponsorship.

The only people who can develop the province are those from North-Western Province itself.

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, allow me to give a background to postings. Each province has a teacher training college, but 
admission to these teacher training colleges is not based on regions of origin. As long as one is a Zambian and has the qualifications  demanded by these colleges, such an applicant will be admitted. These are the teachers who get employed by the Ministry of Education after completing their programmes. These are the same people who get promoted. As such, I do not believe that the claim is valid.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, earlier this year, the hon. Minister of Education read out the performance of secondary school children in this country and I am sure he recalls that North-Western Province had the lowest rate. Yesterday, we were informed that there are twenty-five secondary schools in the North-Western Province. If every school has an average of fifteen teachers, then we are talking about close to four hundred. If only forty-four have been trained over the last three years, we are talking about a meagre 3 per cent per year. 

Is the hon. Minister impressed with the performance in that area? Is he serious about developing that province and if he is, can he stipulate the measures he is undertaking to ensure that the levels of education of the people of North-Western Province are uplifted? They deserve a better share of the cake because it belongs to them too.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, I am getting concerned with the utterances because they point towards regionalism.

Interruptions.

Mr Mulenga: However, ...

Interruptions.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

Mr Mulenga: However, Sir, we cannot withdraw all the teachers from classrooms in order to enable them go for in-service training. As I said, the Ministry of Education does sit down and share the training resources, nationally, province by province. If, for one reason, only four teachers were sponsored by the Ministry of Education to undergo certain programmes in any of our institutions of higher learning, it is because the people, who sat to plan and share the resources, shared the resources evenly.

As it was stated, the numbers fluctuate. The number of teachers allowed to go for in-service training is determined by the availability of resources and, sometimes, these allocations are not always the same. There are times when we have resources for in-service training and there are other 
years when we may get less allocations. Therefore, the numbers are determined by the availability of resources for training purposes. At the same time, I must stress that those who would like to go for further training have to meet certain standards. Even if they meet the basic standards, we should ensure that we do not deprive our classrooms because if we do so, pupils will suffer as teachers will not be there to teach them.

Therefore, if we look at statistics nationally, I am sure the hon. Member of Parliament will be satisfied that we do share the resources evenly.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kakoma: Mr Speaker, from the explanation by the hon. Minister, I would like to find out if he is aware that by allowing children of rich people in Lusaka to train in Solwezi or North-Western Province, they are contributing to the low number of teachers in the province because when these children graduate, they will not want to go and work in North-Western Province where they would have to start sleeping in mud and pole houses. They want to come and teach here in Lusaka where their fathers, like the Ministers there, are. Is he aware?

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, I am not aware of that but consideration is given to those possible discrepancies in the way teachers are trained and distributed. Teachers apply to go and train in any of our nine colleges nationally and when they complete their training programmes, 80 per cent of them, who train in regional colleges, are retained in the provinces and only 20 per cent of such teachers are shared nationally.  Care is taken to have them distributed evenly. So, such fears need not arise.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Syakalima: Mr Speaker, if the hon. Minister is saying 

that they share the training resources, why is it that every academic year, the teachers who go to university start very late because your ministry does not pay tuition fees in time?

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, allow me to simply say that if payments are done late or if money is released late, it means that it will be given to all applicants late. Therefore, there is no discrimination.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Haakaloba: Mr Speaker, I would like the hon. Minister of Education to indicate whether the problem of untrained teachers, who are, now, called community teachers, is prevalent in the ministry. And if so, to what extent.

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, it is an open secret that we do not have enough teachers in our schools both in secondary as well as in basic schools. In order to meet this shortfall, the Government has considered the engagement of untrained teachers. This is because unless untrained teachers are engaged, the learning and teaching process will not be effective.

Now, I would also like to make a statement on community teachers. Community teachers are engaged by communities on local arrangement. However, the Government does second trained teachers to such schools when and if they become available.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Haakaloba: Mr Speaker, I asked that question as I am a trained teacher myself and I think it has been adequately covered by the hon. Minister.

RESIDENTIAL PROPERTIES SALE

192.    Miss Nawa (Mandevu) asked the Minister of Finance and National Planning:

(a)    how much money was realised from the sale of residential properties by the following institutions:

        (i)    Zambia State Insurance                     Corporation Limited;

        (ii)    INDECO; and

        (iii)    ZIMCO;

(b)    who handled the sales in (a) above; and

(c)    how the money has been spent.

Mr Kalifungwa: Mr Speaker, by 31st August 2002, Zambia State Insurance Corporation had realised an amount of K5,684,433,762 from the sale of its residential properties. The sales were handled by the following organisations and companies: In-house Sale Committee; the Government Valuation Department of the Ministry of Works and Supply; and Messrs Bitrust Real Estate Consultants.

Mr Speaker, this money was spent as follows:

    (i)    To meet retrenchment costs;

    (ii)    payment of property transfer tax to ZRA;

    (iii)    consent fees payable to Government;

    (iv)    clearing of ground rent arrears due to             Government;

    (v)    survey and subdivision fees; and

    (vi)    establishment of a house loan recovery             account for a revolving fund to assist             employees who did not benefit from the             sale of institutional houses with loans.

Mr Speaker, by 13th September 2002, an amount of K13,876,012,000 had been realised from the sale of residential properties by Indeco Estate Development Company.

The sales were handled by the following organisations, companies and agents: Indeco; Equity Property Consultants; Mark Associates; Mukonde Chartered Surveyors; BA Property Consultants.

The money realised was spent as follows: separation benefits to retrenched employees; legal fees, conveyancing and commission for sales agents; and day-to-day operations.

Mr Speaker, ZIMCO Properties Limited as at 18th September, 2002, realised an amount of K4,909,527,000 from the sale of its residential properties. The sales were handled by the following organisations and companies:

    (i)    ZIMCO Properties; and

    (ii)    Mark Associates.

Mr Speaker, the money realised was spent as follows:

    (i)    Retrenchment costs;
    (ii)    Pension;
    (iii)    Taxes;
    (iv)    Capital Expenditure;
    (v)    Contribution to PHI;
    
    (vi)    Salaries;
    (vii)    Legal and Estate Agency Fees;
    (viii)    Rates;
    (ix)    Staff Loans;
    (x)    Insurance;
    (xi)    Recurrent Expenditures; and
    (xii)    Investment into Government Securities.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Sikota: Mr Speaker, could the hon. Minister, please, complete his answers. Which organisations participated? He has stated in his answer that there were legal fees …

Mr Patel: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Patel: Mr Speaker, is it in order for Hon. Chitala to circulate a note in this House to raise money to pay off his DBZ loan? I have since sent the note back to Hon. Kalifungwa.

Laughter.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order! Those transactions are better done outside.

Will the hon. Member, please, continue. {mospagebreak}

Laughter.

Mr Sikota: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister why he has not given us a full breakdown of who was involved. He stated that legal fees were paid as part of disbursements from the funds released, but did not state which legal companies were actually involved in these transactions.

Mr Kalifungwa: Mr Speaker, according to the question that was posed, we were not asked to indicate the legal practitioners who were involved in the sale of the properties.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nzowa: Mr Speaker, I would like the hon. Minister to reveal who the beneficiaries were. Were the board members of these companies, especially Indeni and Tazama, allowed to participate in the sale of houses or are expatriates working in these institutions also allowed to buy the houses? This is because there is information indicating that expatriates and board members bought the houses.

Mr Kalifungwa: Mr Speaker, the question pertains to Zambia State Insurance, Indeco and ZIMCO. With regard to the information on Zambia National Oil Company, I am not 

privy to that information. We can give you the details later.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sichinga: Mr Speaker, could the hon. Minister indicate to this House whether this transaction was, in fact, a viable way of dealing with it, especially in view of the fact that several amounts were given to institutions, some of which are under investigations such as the PHI. Are the proceeds part of the money which is unaccounted for? If so, how does 
that help companies that had to liquidate these assets by disposing of them?

Mr Kalifungwa: Mr Speaker, thank you for the question. Unfortunately, I cannot give a precise answer to that.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Ng’uni (Chama South): Mr Speaker, I would like the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to explain to this august House why parastatal organisations are in the habit of just disposing of houses that were built by UNIP but not replacing them.

Mr Kalifungwa: Sir, I think the normal practice is that when companies are in liquidation, the liquidators and the liquidating managers dispose of assets to recover the monies to pay creditors. That is exactly what happened with the privatised companies. 

So, really, I do not know whether you want more information than that.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: I will, now, take one more question.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, Zthe ambia State Insurance Corporation is not amongst those that were liquidated and I hope the hon. Minister will give me an honest answer. He did mention a colossal amount of money that was realised from the sale of properties belonging to the Zambia State Insurance Corporation. But, he did not state how much of that went into capital investment, which he referred to as house loan recovery account. He talked about retrenchments and so on. Is it prudent to offload capital assets for the sake of meeting recurrent costs? Is that the economics of MMD?

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Kalifungwa: Mr Speaker, we have tabulated how the money from the sale of houses was used. We were not asked for specifics, for example, how much money was meant for retrenchment. If the hon. Member for Kabwata wants that information, we can bring it to him so that he can absorb it.

Thank you, Sir.

Dr Kabanje (Mwandi): Mr Speaker, God is great! The Lord is my Shepherd. I shall not want …

Laughter.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order! I have been advised that we have to move the motion before you deliver your maiden speech.

MOTIONS

PARLIAMENTARY SELECT COMMITTEE TO SCRUTINISE THE APPOINTMENTS OF COMMISSIONERS FOR THE ANTI-CORRUPTION COMMISSION REPORT

Mr Kabaghe (Matero): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that this House do adopt the Report of the Parliamentary Select Committee to scrutinise the appointments of Commissioners for the Anti-Corruption Commission laid on the Table of the House on 21st October, 2002.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Is the motion seconded?

Miss Nawa (Mandevu): Mr Speaker, I second the motion.

Mr Kabaghe: Mr Speaker, your Parliamentary Select Committee was appointed on 28th June, 2002 pursuant to Section 7(I), (ii) and (iii) of the Anti-Corruption Commission Act, No. 42 of 1996 which states, and I quote:

    ‘The Commission shall consist of the following         Commissioners:

        (a)    The Chairperson; and

        (b)    four other persons.

The commissioners referred to in paragraphs (a) and (b) shall be appointed by the President, subject to ratification by the National Assembly. The Chairperson shall be a person who has held or is qualified to hold high judicial office.’

The terms of reference of your Committee were to scrutinise the appointments of Mrs Nellie Butete Kashumba Mutti, Mrs Christine Joyce Mulundika and Mrs Sue Mwanamwaze Sichingwe Mwaanza as Commissioners for the Anti-Corruption Commission.

Sir, after studying, in detail, the written evidence submitted 

[Mr Kabaghe]

to them regarding the appointees, your Committee invited the State security investigative agencies to make certain that the appointees:

(a)    had no adverse reports of corruption;

(b)    had no adverse reports relating to drug trafficking;

(c)    had no criminal records; and

(d)    had, at no time, undermined the security of the State.

Your Committee further interviewed professional bodies concerned such as the hon. Deputy Minister, State House, representing the appointing authority and the appointees themselves to ascertain the appointees’ suitability to serve as Commissioners on the Anti-Corruption Commission.

Sir, your Committee noted, with satisfaction, the clearance of all the three appointees of any criminal, corrupt or drug related cases by the relevant Government security and investigative agencies. Taking into consideration all the other information that they came across in the process of scrutinising the appointees, and the current Government’s position to eradicate corruption in the country, your Committee resolved to recommend that all the appointees be ratified by this august House.

In recommending the three appointees, your Committee are of the view that they possess the necessary exposure that would add value to the commission. They are also forthright and principled. Furthermore, considering the aspect of gender, they would ably represent civil society.

Your Committee, Sir, observe that for the past two years, there have been no Commissioners on the Anti-Corruption Commission. This was a serious lapse that greatly affected the operations of the Commission. They, therefore, hope that this lapse will not recur in future in order for the Commission to continue running smoothly and effectively.

Mr Speaker, your Committee fully share the concerns of the Republican President on the high levels of corruption in the country and the need to put in place remedial measures to eradicate the scourge. They also recognise the need to have Commissioners who are well enlightened and have the drive and ability to seriously fight corruption in all its forms. These are the attributes we see in the candidates we are presenting today. It is also in this regard, Sir, that your Committee urge the Government, in future, to consult more widely when making appointments to such important institutions. These appointments, Sir, are supposed to take cognisance of the 

appointees’ other values such as integrity, maturity and knowledge.

Mr Speaker, I, now, wish to thank the hon. Members of your Committee, who worked tirelessly throughout the course of our proceedings, for their contributions, co-operation and dedication to work. I also wish to express my gratitude to the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly for the valuable advice and services rendered to your Committee. I humbly extend my thanks to the hon. Deputy Minister at State House, heads of the State security agencies, professional bodies and the appointees for the oral and written submissions which they prepared and submitted as required by your Select Committee. 

Lastly, Sir, I wish to thank you for nominating us to serve on this very important Parliamentary Select Committee to scrutinise the appointments of Mrs Nellie Butete Kashumba Mutti, Mrs Christine Joyce Mulundika and Mrs Sue Munamwaze Shichingwe Mwaanza to serve on the Anti-Corruption Commission.

Sir, it is, now, my honour and privilege to present your Committee’s Report and hope that this august House will give it the support it deserves.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Deputy Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speaker, now, or later?

Miss Nawa: Now, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker, in seconding this important motion so ably moved by the Chairman of your Select Committee, let me take this opportunity to extend my gratitude to you and to the Clerk of the National Assembly and his staff for the guidance that was provided to your Select Committee during their deliberations. Sir, I would be failing in my duties if I did not pay special tribute to the Chairman of your Select Committee for the able manner in which he led the deliberations of your Committee. I would also like to extend my gratitude to the members of your Committee who deliberated in a spirit of togetherness which enabled us to arrive at the recommendations.

Mr Speaker, as I mentioned earlier, the speech of the Chairman was very elaborate. Therefore, I will be very brief. Your Committee, Sir, are aware of the areas of responsibility and the requirement for candidates for the office of the Anti-Corruption Commission. They are also mindful of the fact that these responsibilities require that persons occupying these positions should be persons of high standing and of integrity in society. 

Mr Speaker, your Committee, in making the recommendations regarding the appointments of Mrs Mulundika, Mrs Mutti and Mrs Mwaanza, consulted widely to determine the suitability of the appointees to serve on this important Commission. The reports from the investigating agencies indicate that there are no adverse reports or records to warrant the disqualification of the candidates from being appointed as Commissioners of the Anti-Corruption Commission. 

Mr Speaker, your Committee also observed that the appointees have the necessary qualities to enable them serve effectively on the Commission. Their professions have also exposed them to key decision-making positions. The appointees are also steadfast and strong in character and will not easily be swayed in any circumstances. It is also worthy to note that gender representation will be achieved with the appointment of the three women.

Mr Speaker, the previous Governments left out women in decision-making bodies and when they were appointed, women were mere members. Your Committee are, therefore, pleased to note that the Government is encouraging more women to participate in decision-making and congratulate them on this effort.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Miss Nawa: Your Committee strongly believe that as women are mothers who have the interests of the country at heart, there will be a lot of positive development in the nation if they are appointed to decision-making positions. Your Committee wish to encourage the Government to continue appointing women and urge this House to ratify the appointments.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Dr Kabanje (Mwandi): Mr Speaker, God is great. The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not fear. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kabanje: Mr Speaker, with deep immunity, I stand here to pay tribute to the people of Mwandi for electing me three times in under two years. Mwandi represents the general crisis of those political parties whose agenda was State House at all costs.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kabanje: Mwandi, Mr Speaker, epitomises continuity with change and change with continuity. Let me congratulate my hon. Friends, Reverend Nyirongo and Mr Musonda, Members of Parliament for Bwacha and Kabwe, respectively, for successfully retaining their seats.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kabanje: Mr Speaker, Bwacha, Kabwe and Mwandi have demonstrated that the power of the people is far superior to the oligarchies and plutocrats and party mandarins who, sometimes, practise primitive political cannibalism through expulsions.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Dr Kabanje: Mr Speaker, I am a simple man who sought no honour …

Interruptions.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order! Hon. Members, you have been here for a long time now and as such, you know the rules that govern the delivery of maiden speeches. Please, restrain yourselves. Listen to what the hon. Member has to say.

Will you continue, please.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kabanje: Mr Speaker, I thank you.

I am a simple man who sought neither honour nor glory, but stubbornly and resolutely resisted those who wanted to destroy the country in their quest for Plot 1. I salute His Excellency the President, Mr Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC., for his courage in declaring war on corruption and other negative forces. This, Sir, is a revolutionary feat which will, no doubt, invite responses from counter revolutionaries.

Mr Speaker, it is easy to denounce …

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order! While I cautioned hon. Members of the House that there should be no interruptions when a maiden speech is being delivered, I think it is also better for the hon. Member to lower his voice so that he does not incite the House to interrupt him. So, calm down.

Dr Kabanje: Mr Speaker, it is easy to denounce bad governance and corruption in the other camp but to point a finger at your own house can cause a war against your own friend and is highly risky.

But, Mr Speaker, that is the high price one pays on the lonesome road to social justice, progress and development. Sir, the MMD, under the banner of the New Deal, represents the Zambian phase of perestroika and glasnost.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kabanje: Mr Speaker, the years of stagnation and 

[Dr Kabanje]

underdevelopment, under the New Culture MMD, have been thoroughly exposed by the New Deal MMD. One of the opposition parties, which flew high the flag of anti-corruption, is the one, now, trying hard to justify that sad past. This is political opportunism and chicanery.

Mr Speaker, people who are desperate for power will embrace anything in their way and betray all. Yesterday’s rabid anti-corruption crusaders are the devil’s advocates of today. As with the people of Mwandi, Sir, I am extremely delighted to associate myself with the vision and ideals of the New Deal Administration.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kabanje: His Excellency the President has put Zambia and Zambians first and made it clear that so-called past favours, party loyalties and affiliations will always be subordinate to the greater national interests.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kabanje: Mr Speaker, in this new dawn, acrimony, pettiness and hatred are not justified. One is saddened by certain individuals who pride in being rude towards the Head of State. They think that is politics and a sign of being tough.

Mr Speaker, the truth, on the other hand, is that such bad manners are inconsistent with common decency and are a betrayal of the oath of allegiance and the salutation of the title ‘honourable’ accorded to all Members of Parliament.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kabanje: Mr Speaker, the Zambian political opposition, through the doctrine of constructive engagement with the Government, should rise to the challenges of our time to fight poverty. After all, most of our problems arise from our historic marginalisation in the global market place. The solutions to our problems are often in the hands of the global intellectual hegemonists in the developed north.

Finally, a word of thanks to my party for encouragement, which made me feel like a founder member, to the valiant MMD provincial chairman and his team, my king, His Majesty …

Interruptions.

Mr Deputy Speaker: The speaker is overjoyed to have won the elections. So, let him express himself but he must address me.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kabanje: … the Litunga of Barotseland and His Royal Highness, Senior Chief Inyambo, for their wise guidance and comforting words …

Interruptions.

Dr Kabanje: … when my friends chased me from their party. They reminded me that though cowards are many, as numerous as sand, the brave-hearted still live.

Laughter.

Dr Kabanje: Mr Speaker, I thank the UNIP officials in Mwandi for their revolutionary support, demonstrating, once more, that UNIP is not only the people’s party but, a mother party.

The FDD in Mwandi who resigned en mass demonstrated that they were MMD in exile from the Third Term and corruption. To my dear friends in the UPND, who tried to steal Mwandi away from me, I say I shall always love you. Hopefully, as it were in the beginning, when your fantasies and illusions are over, we shall be together for national development and not national petitions.

Laughter.

Dr Kabanje: Mr Speaker, I have no doubt in my mind that in 2006 when his Excellency President Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC., begins his second and last term of office, Hon. Sibetta, then a retired Member of Parliament, will whisper to Hon. Muntanga, then a self-styled Leader of the Opposition and say; ‘Musaa, the Zambian renaissance is on course.’

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Laughter.

Mr Sibetta: I have the right to reply, Sir. There will be total war!

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order! I need complete silence.

Mr Samukonga (Chawama): Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise to support the motion on the Floor.

I know the ladies who have been proposed for ratification by this House very well. In particular, I know Mrs Nellie Mutti. She happens to be my personal lawyer and is a lady of high integrity. I have no doubt in my mind that she will execute her duties to the best of her ability.

I also wish to take this opportunity to congratulate the Chairman, Hon. Kabaghe, and his team on a job well done.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.

Mr Samukonga: Mr Speaker, when business was suspended, I was congratulating the Chairman, Hon. Kabaghe, and his team, on a job well done. They have brought to this House names which are very credible. However, I notice that the issue of gender has not been well balanced. I would have loved to see one or two names of men as well, just to balance the composition of this Commission.

Mr Speaker, I do not want to dwell too much on trivialities. The second issue that I want to raise is that the Anti-Corruption Commission should be made answerable to Parliament and not to the President. I am a strong supporter of President Mwanawasa’s zero tolerance on corruption, but I do not want us to make a mistake and allow what happened in the last administration, for instance, to happen again. The last administration chose to ignore reports of the Anti-Corruption Commission. If the commission reported to this august House, Mr Speaker, I think that we would be able to make rational decisions rather than personal ones.

Mr Speaker, there are still some corrupt elements prevalent in the new administration. Therefore, due care should be taken to ensure that such ugly faces do not surface at all. 

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Shepande (Nangoma): Mr Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity to lend my support to the ratification of the three appointees in the report, namely: Mrs Christine Joyce Mulundika, Mrs Nellie Butete Kashumba Mutti and Mrs Sue Munamwaze Shichingwe Mwaanza. Sir, like the previous speaker, I am personally acquainted to these candidates. Mrs Mulundika has distinguished herself as a teacher, a unionist and politician. I think that she has the necessary standing to play her role in this commission. Similarly, Mrs Nellie Mutti is a household name in the field of law. She, too, has distinguished herself very well in that career and is very well qualified to serve on this commission. Mrs Mwaanza has also distinguished herself as an accountant and her standing in society is of very high profile

Mr Speaker, having said this, I wish to appeal to the Government to give the necessary support to the Anti-Corruption Commission, especially in terms of financing and personnel. Quite obviously, their task is an onerous one. It is not very enviable. They, therefore, need the resources that are necessary for them to carry out their duties. This appeal should not fall on deaf ears. The question of corruption in Africa and the Third World has risen to very unprecedented levels and it is important that we cleanse our society and put our respective countries in order.

Mr Speaker, with these few remarks, I thank you.

Mrs Banda (Milanzi): Mr Speaker, in the first place, I would like to thank His Excellency the President, Mr Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, for appointing three women to the Anti-Corruption Commission. I can rest assure you that the womenfolk is very happy because when the President nominated eight Members of Parliament, there was not a single woman. We only hope that if some nominated Members are replaced, women will replace them.

Mr Speaker, I will, particularly, speak about Mrs Christine Joyce Mulundika whom I have worked with for a long time. As a young woman, I found her at Freedom House. She is a distinguished leader and civil servant. You may be aware that she came from that background. I am sure, given the honest UNIP leader’s heart in Mrs Christine Joyce Mulundika, the President was not wrong to put her on the Anti-Corruption Commission. I only hope that what she did as a leader at Freedom House, she will genuinely continue at the commission. She must not copy characters who would like to deny the public genuine leadership. That is my appeal to Mrs Christine Joyce Mulundika. I would like her to work as she used to before.

Mr Speaker, although I have not personally known Mrs Nellie Mutti, I am positive that she is a household name in the law fraternity. We have read about her and we have heard her speak and I think that she will make a very successful commissioner. Although I do not know Mrs Mwaanza, I think that, according to her curriculum vitae, she will make a very good female leader.

I would like to disagree with the hon. Member who said that he would have loved one or two men on the commission. I dispute that because when the President nominated eight men and made them Ministers, nobody here protested. Therefore, he should just give the womenfolk support. In  fact, this is just a drop in the ocean. We are behind in every sphere of Government operations.

Mr Speaker, with those few remarks, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Shakafuswa (Katuba): Mr Speaker, in supporting the motion on the Floor, I would like to say that I am happy with the calibre of nominees to the Anti-Corruption Commission. May I just give them a piece of advice now that we have support from the Executive. There seems to be political will to fight corruption. I want to advise the new commissioners 
who, from the mood in the House, are going to be ratified without problems. We have to look at corruption in the face. Corruption is just that, whether you are in the Executive or on the receiving end. What has destroyed us? We have had sessions of Parliament for the last ten years and we have had 

[Mr Shakafuswa]

this institution for the past, maybe, twenty years. 

When did corruption cease to be corruption? Why is it that, now, there is an emphasis on corruption? Where were all these hon. Members of Parliament, with their honour, when they sat together and said, there had been corruption in the past ten years? Where were they?

Some of us are here as a result of corruption and we know it. Sir, corruption should not just be corruption when it is on the other end. If it is the other person on the receiving end, it becomes corruption. The commissioners, who are coming in, must know that corruption erodes morals in our society. We are giving them the mandate. Face it! Do not think that because you have been appointed, corruption in the Government should be ignored. Mind you, if you do that, the next Government will launch investigations and may discover corrupt practices in the previous Government.

Each time we have by-elections, people are bought. We have people going to elections with truckloads of maize to entice and corrupt the minds of the voters. Is that not corruption? Let us be morally upright. Do not look at a speck in somebody’s eye when you have a log in yours. Hon. Members, let us work and write history which our children and grandchildren are going to be proud of. The President has showed good will, but he has to lead by example. The New Deal Government is eager in its fight against corruption but they have to live within the confines of corruption.

Mr Zimba interjected.

Mr Shakafuswa: Hon. Newstead Zimba, if you were a morally upright person, you would not be sitting there. You would be outside with Chiluba.

Laughter.

Mr Zimba: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Zimba: Mr Speaker, I am concerned that the hon. Member, who was debating so well, is, now, going astray without details of facts of what he is talking about. Is he in order to begin personalising his debate when the people, including the name he mentioned, were just reported in the newspapers and no facts can be availed? I seek your ruling.

Mr Deputy Speaker: We are discussing a very important national issue, ‘corruption’. Therefore, do not mention individuals. We can discuss generally.

May the hon. Member, please, continue.

Mr Shakafuswa: Mr Speaker, I thank you for your timely advice.

I believe that when we come to this House, we have to live an honourable life. We have to know where we are coming from and where we are going. Let us not be economic slaves who forget about our past and our friends and go for greener pastures because of economic benefits. This is what is eroding the morals of this country. We come here looking at economic benefits; what our children are going to eat and what we are going to have in our pocket instead of serving the nation.

If all of us had the nation in mind, we would not have the problems we are facing now. Some of us helped to create the monster that we are talking about today - corruption. We never stood up in the face of corruption and said this was morally wrong. We were enjoying eating with them; we thought it was right. 

Today, we have my tribesmate as President and people have forgotten that they were eating with the corrupt ones. No! Let us be serious because at the end of the day history is going to judge us on how we have conducted ourselves. There are some people here, within eight months, they have already started putting up mansions.

Mr Muntanga: Ba muselela kwa kaba.

Mr Shakafuswa: They already have off-shore accounts. It is wrong! What example are we giving our children? 

I urge the new commissioners to fight corruption vehemently. Whether it is ‘Executive’ corruption or Jonas …

Mr Sichilima: Or Naidoo!

Mr Shakafuswa: Even if it is Naidoo, let it be corruption.

Laughter.

Mr Shakafuswa: Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Sichilima (Mbala) Mr Speaker, I thank you for according me this opportunity to contribute on this very important motion on the Floor. I support the motion.

Mr Speaker, this is a lesson that my cousins from Eastern Province should learn that they should stop marrying off daughters at the age of nine, especially Hon. Ng’uni.

Laughter.

Mr Sichilima: These are mothers of the nation. It encourages me, a father of three daughters, that, now, I will 
not be talking about the so much pronounced gender because gender seems to be corrupting women. They think that they 

can be favoured because they are women. No! To get such positions, they need to have the necessary qualifications. 

Sir, I can mention a few of them like Dr Inonge Mbikusita-Lewanika, who is our Ambassador-Extraordinary to the African Union; Mrs Margaret Mwanakatwe - Managing Director of Barclays Bank Zambia Limited; Ms Kapwepwe - Managing Director of National Airports Corporation; Mrs Mudenda from Bank of Zambia; the Executive Director of Women for Change - Emily Sikazwe; and the Deputy News Editor at the Zambia Daily Mail - Mrs Joy Sata. Never mind the first lady Mayor, Ms Patricia Nawa, seated on the Opposition bench.

Mr Mutanga: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Sit down!

Interruptions.

Mr Sichilima: Mr Speaker, Mrs Mwanza is one lady that I have known for over fifteen years and she has guided me all along and encouraged me to study further in Europe. When you look at her curriculum vitae, she should not be doubted and I am sure she will excel.

On Mrs Mulundika, I think some of our young hon. Members of Parliament like Hon. L. J. Ngoma, read about her in civics. This is the same Mrs Mulundika you read about. She has an outstanding curriculum vitae. The same goes for Ms Nellie Mutti who recently has been reported to have handled very serious cases. She is a qualified person, Mr Speaker, and I have no doubt she is going to manage.

Mr Speaker, as regards corruption, I am glad that one hon. Member of Parliament from the Opposition mentioned that the commission should not spare anybody. Not even Naidoo! If Naidoo’s money is circulating in our system, they should follow it without fear or favour.

Hon. Government Members: Tell them!

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order! Hon. Members, we are doing a great deservice to this House. Naidoo is not here to defend himself.

Laughter.

Mr Deputy Speaker: So, please, be tactical in the way you discuss that matter.

Mr Sichilima: I thank you, Mr Speaker, and I withdraw that statement.

Sir, having said that, I am appealing to the commission not to spare anybody and the Government is going to support 

them in every way possible.

Finally, I would like to take this opportunity to personally honour all women who have made a mark and, have, consequently, been promoted to these positions.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo): Mr Speaker, I wish to congratulate Members of the Select Committee. They have done a good job.

Mr Speaker, I am gratified that it is women that have been proposed to be members of the Anti-Corruption Commission. This commission has a lot of work to do.

There was only one person available, and that is the Chairman, Justice Kapembwa. 

Mr Sibetta: There is nobody there!

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, I am saying that the women that have been chosen here, whom we have actually met, are women of integrity and substance. However, allow me to mention that they have a big job because corruption is on the right side of the House.

Laughter.

Mr Muntanga: The other day, there was a question of the Development Bank of Zambia and the worst culprits are the people seated there.

Laughter.

Mr Muntanga: So, we have a big job to quickly ratify these commissioners because these people are capable of changing. Those who qualified as doctors in law end up as sangomas.

Laughter.

Mr Muntanga: They are able to change very fast. 

Sir, this place reminds me of a time when I was herding cattle or trapping birds and a small bird was caught in one of our traps. One of the big birds, which eat small birds, came to eat the small bird. In the process, the small bird roughed up the big one. 

Laughter.

Muntanga: When the big bird finished eating, it could not fly out because it was trapped in the snare. So, we went and killed it. Likewise, these commissioners must be aware that the big birds are being caught. This is important because 

[Mr Muntanga]

no one is immune to the law.

It is like cutting a tree while the person you want to save is sitting at the top. The commissioners we are ratifying this afternoon have a big job and need to be encouraged. We need to tell them and ask them not to fear because the people involved are very big, like my cousin, His Honour the Vice-President.

Laughter.

Mr Muntanga: Sir, …

The Vice-President: On a point of order, Sir.

Hon. UPND Members: No!

Mr Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Hon. UPND Members: Aah!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I am extremely worried. Debates in this House are aired all over the country. Is it in order for that gentleman …

Laughter.

The Vice-President: … to make such a serious …

Hon. UPND Members: Honourable Member!

Mr Mabenga: Just shut up and listen, man!

The Vice-President: … accusation against a very innocent man? Is he in order, Sir?

Laughter.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, joking may have been all right in the past when there were no broadcasts because most jokes between traditional cousins and so on ended here.

There are very few people outside this Chamber who know which hon. Members are tribal cousins. Therefore, when you insinuate like that, you may think it is a tribal joke, but it can be taken seriously by some people outside this Chamber. Please, minimise tribal cousinship in this House, especially do not mention names of individuals. Cousinship is accepted everywhere and we are what we are in this country because of this cousinship. Without it, there would have been divisions a long time ago. But, I think, in this Chamber, we should try to avoid it. 

I, therefore, request the hon. Member to withdraw that statement.

Hon. UPND Members: Withdraw the paper!

Interruptions.

Mr Muntanga: I am obliged, Mr Speaker. Since it is my cousin I was referring to, I withdraw the statement.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: What I was saying is that the commissioners that we are ratifying this afternoon will have to work hard. Even if I have been advised, I have several cousins such as Hon. Mabenga whom I will have to advise to work hard so that corruption does not extend to areas that will concern all of us like in Mwandi, where my friend has just been elected. He is not very corrupt although he may be, …

Laughter.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, the ladies we are ratifying are encouraged not to fear. Even if somebody is on this side of the House or on the Government side, the Anti-Corruption Commission should work without fear or favour so that we rid ourselves of corruption in the country. That way these friends that cross from here (Opposition) to the other side, hoping that they can run away from corruption and corruptible acts, will still be caught up on the other side. 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: I pray that my brother, the hon. Member for Mwandi, Dr Kabanje, who worries about me, will not be caught by the commissioners that we are ratifying.

Sir, I support the ratification of the appointees.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukwakwa (Zambezi East): Mr Speaker, in supporting the motion, we have to start from the basis that there is no man who is not born of a woman.

Hon. Female Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukwakwa: Mr Speaker, precedents have already been set in this House whereby people who go into public office have decided to relinquish their businesses so that they concentrate on public office. Examples are there, of certain businesses sold off so as to avoid conflicting interests while carrying out duties in the public office. 

Sir, I have no problem with Mrs Nellie Mutti, even if she is also running a business in the process of defending people who transgress the law. However, we must reflect on the fact that, through this appointment, she has risen to the apex of the ACC which is controlled and supervised by the President. The question we have to ask is: what are the norms our colleagues on your right have put in place with regard to such appointees?

We, on your left, can advise but the onus is on the other side. I say this because in the previous regime, Dr Chiluba insisted that there was no corruption and he could not do much unless evidence was brought. Now, we can see evidence which was sat upon.

Mr Speaker, these are not simple issues. Let us reflect on what we are trying to approve. On that basis, I would not want to be repetitive, except to just draw your attention to a quotation which I wish to make which is on page 8. It is as follows:

‘The official crusade against this plunder commenced with His Excellency, Mr Levy P. Mwanawasa, SC., presenting to Parliament some instances of this plunder.’

Mr Speaker, this sentence has different interpretations.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order! I have more than ten people wishing to speak but from what I hear, we are repeating ourselves. You can easily express yourselves when we come to the conclusion. I will only take somebody we have not heard from.

Princess Nakatindi Wina (Sesheke): Mr Speaker, I thank you very much. First of all, I wish to congratulate you on being in that Chair. This is the first time I have seen you in that Chair.

Laughter.

Princess Nakatindi Wina: It is really good and pleasing to us who have known you for many years. Mr Speaker, I stand to support the ratification of the three women members recommended by your Select Committee.

Mr Speaker, I happen to know much about two of the ladies and just a bit on the third. I know Mrs Christine Joyce Mulundika very well because she worked under my late mother. She was one of the youths when my late mother was the first junior woman Minister in this country at Independence and the first woman Member of the Central Committee under UNIP. I also worked with her as a junior member and I know her very well as a woman who cannot be 

easily swayed.

Mrs Nellie Mutti, unfortunately, happened to be one of my 
lawyers during the so-called treason trial. She is a woman who does not fear anything. She only fears things like snakes and elephants, …

Laughter.

Princess Nakatindi Wina: … but when it comes to the nitty-gritty of life or law or self-determination, she can articulate herself very nicely. She is a mother and a married woman, and so on.

Mr Speaker, the other lady, Mrs Mwaanza – Mwaanza is an Ila name and these Ilas are our cousins. We fought a war with them. They are very serious minded people and that is why they manage to look after cattle. They can talk to a cow, even if a cow frightened my uncle, the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives, Mr Sikatana, at the Show Grounds.

Laughter.

Princess Nakatindi Wina: Mr Speaker, with them it is just child’s play. Whoever appointed and recommended these three women did his homework. Joyce Mulundika is a politician, she can articulate herself very well when it comes to political manoeuvering. Nellie Mutti can articulate herself when it comes to law and Mrs Mwaanza can articulate herself when it comes to money laundering. Distributing a lot of money in brown envelopes and so on and so forth. 

Laughter.

Princess Nakatindi Wina: Mr Speaker, whoever made the nominations did his work rightly and I have no quarrel or qualms about ratifying these three women. Mothers are really tough. If you look at nature, it is the female elephant that fights more than the male and that is why we have these tusks in front of us. When it smells danger, a female elephant fights more than the male.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Princess Nakatindi Wina: It protects the calves. Even female lions are worse than male lions. I am giving examples of animals so that we do not adopt the attitude of mentioning people’s names. I enjoy the jokes of cousinship and so on but certain jokes can be very expensive and in most cases are misconstrued. Jokes can annoy people and you can create an enemy with a single comment, even when it is a joke. You have to know how you joke.

Mr Speaker, I want to remind the learned hon. Minister of Legal Affairs and Attorney-General that women are not 

[Princess Nakatindi]

enemies of one another. I left early yesterday but I listened to his speech on radio. He asked why we do not support one another. You have no idea how much we support one another. 

We even backbite our husbands when we are together. You do not know what happens when women meet. We love one another but when you bring a Bill or motion which is wrongly tabled, we have the right to object, whether it is a woman or man to be ratified. The ratification of these honourable ladies has been done properly. So, we have no quarrel and support them fully. We love them all.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. R. Banda (Kapoche): Mr Speaker, thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to speak. I stand here to support the motion on the Floor. I have personally known two of the appointees. Mrs Christine Mulundika was my mobiliser, just like Hon. Kennedy Shepande when I was a UNIP Youth Chairman in Matero. That was between 1975 and 1976.

I know Mrs Mulundika as a woman of principle, direction and fairness. I am only hoping that it is still the same Christine Mulundika whom I knew in 1975 and 1976 but I believe that there is nothing that could have changed her. This means that those that went out to search for commissioners to serve on the Anti-Corruption Commission must have done a very good and thorough job.

Mr Speaker, I have known Mrs Nellie Mutti as a fearless lawyer who has fought very hard for human rights. She has fought battles for women’s rights and equality in this country. I have no doubt that she will distinguish herself very well on the commission.

Sir, I have no doubt that Mrs Mwaanza should also be a woman of high calibre since the two ladies mentioned above are qualified. I would like to congratulate the committee and the appointing authority on a job well-done.

Mr Speaker, everybody has raised concern on corruption. Corruption is a sickness that has rocked our country. At one stage, it was taboo to talk about corruption because some people would quickly get down on to you to find out more on what you knew about the matter and yet they new what corruption was and were practically involved in it. We thank God that today, we have President Mwanawasa who decided to come out in the open and say our society is rotten because there is corruption. Unfortunately, this corruption started right at the top, at the roof down to the bottom of the building, which is bad. This was perpetrated by our colleagues from 

the other side, the MMD. The leadership was involved. What a shame!

Mr Speaker, for your information, the years 1991 to 2001 will go down into the history of Zambia as a lost decade. If I was asked to write the history of Zambia, I would rather write from 1964 to 1991, mention Kaunda as President and then jump to last year and mention President Mwanawasa.

Laughter.

Mr C. R. Banda: Mr Speaker, I am in a hurry to forget 1991 to 2001. The only unfortunate thing is that history cannot be rewritten. 

Mr Speaker, I would like to advise our colleagues, who have been appointed to serve on the Anti-Corruption Commission, including those that are already there that when they are doing their work, they should not have a selective approach. If something goes wrong and it concerns our friends from the other side, the MMD, you will find that they will be too quick to carry out investigations and clear their names. 

However, when it comes to an ordinary person, we have so many examples and I hope our colleagues at the ACC are listening, they would rather get quiet as if they are doing you a favour. No one wants to be done a favour when it comes to issues of corruption. They must do their work and be able to report back to whoever they have been investigating so that people can know whether they are guilty or not.

Mr Speaker, I support the appointment of the three women to the Anti-Corruption Commission.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President (Mr Kavindele): Mr Speaker, allow me to thank the Chairman of the Committee, Hon. Kabaghe, and his Committee and officials, who assisted the committee, for a job well done.

I am sure hon. Members will agree with me that the report is thorough, qualitative and quite informative. Sir, let me also pay tribute to hon. Members who have contributed openly on this important motion. From the views expressed on the Floor of this House, it is clear that we are united as a House in stamping out corruption in our country.

Mr Speaker, as a Government that is firmly committed to getting rid of this scourge at all levels of our society, I cannot agree more with the hon. Members who have spoken in support of our stand. We appreciate this support and we will pursue this struggle with all the means at our disposal.

Mr Speaker, let me make one comment on the appointees before us. Yesterday, this House acted with unanimity in ratifying the appointment of the first female Clerk of our National Assembly. Today, we are yet considering the ratification of lady commissioners on one of our important commissions in the country. I urge you all to support this motion.

Mr Speaker, these appointments provide yet another opportunity to our female folk to contribute positively to national building efforts of our country. I am left with no doubt that the ladies before you will rise to this challenge and provide the leadership in curbing the scourge of corruption that is slowly eating at the fabric of our society. Sir, I believe that the ladies will work well with the other two commissioners, namely: Professor Chintu and Mr Leonard Kantumoya.

Mr Speaker, my Government, working closely with our co-operating partners, will strive to ensure that the commission is enabled to perform without interference. We will also strive to provide the necessary logistics to enable them operate efficiently.

Sir, I do not believe that a conflict of interest will arise because the commissioners being ratified this evening will basically be involved in policy matters. The investigations and other day to day issues will be the responsibility of well-trained operatives at the commission.

Mr Speaker, I wish to take this opportunity to inform hon. Members that answers to the questions that they ask have to come through my office. I have to approve them before they come here. What I am trying to say is that if I do not want anything to be brought here, all I need to do is just return that file. However, we believe that the truth has to come out and this is why even when we are involved, the answers come here openly.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, corruption is a very serious issue to allege on anyone, whether they are your cousins or whatever because that is what we are trying to get away from.

Sir, let me tell you how to be wealthy, …

Interruptions.

The Vice-President: Listen, this is a free lesson. The reason that banks are there is to lend money to clients and when a client uses that money, they pay back. In the process, they create employment and wealth. As for the Development Bank Zambia, the Government had to borrow money from the Dutch FMO or World Bank to put in there. That is how you 

create wealth.

Your salary will not make you a millionaire. You will never be a rich man from your salary at Parliament. The good thing is that all those that have borrowed money from public institutions and paid back have created employment. It is interesting to note that all of them were not here at the time they borrowed. Therefore, you cannot say they used their positions as hon. Members of Parliament to borrow. That is the difference between those who have gone out and those who have remained here. We are here but some of our friends are not here. The honest ones and those who deal above board 
are still here as Vice-President and as hon. Ministers.

Laughter.

The Vice-President: I will go down in history as a man who served two Presidents because of hard work, honesty and integrity.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: People borrow in order to invest in a business. A salary has never made anyone wealthy no matter how much they earn. You use existing institutions. Those who have borrowed for agriculture, for instance, …

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order! Let us be quiet and listen.

The Vice-President: Agriculture is a long-term investment. It is not for one season. It takes seven years to produce coffee. But, in the meantime, you still have to have employees.

Mr Speaker, that is free advice to some of the hon. Members. I see applications for loans. This is a free lesson to all those who want to get loans. I am aware of so many things because I have been in Government for a long time. I was in UNIP before I served under Dr Chiluba in MMD. Now, I am with Mr Mwanawasa. I know the people who were in co-operatives and sold co-operative houses.

Interruptions.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I know so much although I keep quiet. When a commission of inquiry is constituted to look at the illegally sold co-operative houses, …

Laughter.

The Vice-President: We know, Mr Speaker, the houses they sold in townships …

Interruptions

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order! I am politely asking His Honour the Vice-President to wind up, please.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I just wish to let the people know that we had many co-operative houses which were sold by some individuals who are here and we shall grab them.

Interruptions.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, last but not least, I would like to thank all those who have contributed to the debate on 
this motion.

Interruptions.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

The Vice-President: I have taken note of their suggestions and observations and will study them thoroughly.

Mr Speaker, I wish to end by saying, it is better to borrow from lending institutions than from Naidoo. Naidoo has followed you, now, and you will be in trouble.

Laughter

The Vice-President: Thank you, Sir.

Mr Kabaghe: Mr Speaker, I am humbled by the positive contributions from hon. Members of Parliament, this evening, who have added quality to out Parliamentary Select Committee Report.

I appreciate what His Honour the Vice-President has said. Indeed, the three appointees are non-controversial and this made our work extremely easy. The appointing authority gave us the right candidates for the job.

Mr Speaker, I think we have debated at length. It is clear that this motion will be adopted unanimously.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Question put and agreed to.

ADJOURNMENT

The Vice-President (Mr Kavindele): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do, now, adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

The House adjourned at 1927 hours until 0900 hours on Friday, 1st November, 2002.