DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE FIRST SESSION OF THE TENTH ASSEMBLY

Thursday, 1st March, 2007

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

  PRAYER

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ANNOUNCEMENT BY MR SPEAKER

WORKSHOP ON ANTI-CORRUPTION FOR HON. MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT

Mr Speaker: I wish to inform the House that there will be a workshop on anti-corruption for hon. Members of Parliament to be held in the amphitheatre from Friday 2nd to Saturday 3rd March, 2007. The workshop will commence at 1400hours on 2nd March, 2007.

The workshop will focus on creating a clear understanding of legislation on corruption and the role of hon. Members of Parliament in the fight against the vice. The hon. Madam Deputy Speaker will officiate at the opening of the workshop. I, therefore, invite all hon. Members of Parliament to be present and participate.

Thank you.

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QUESTIONS

FOREIGN INVESTORS IN ZAMBIA SINCE 2001

344. Mr Sejani (Mapatizya) asked the Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry:

(a) how many foreign investors had invested in Zambia since 2001;

(b) how much investment had been brought into the country; and

(c) which sectors of the Zambian economy they had invested in.

The Deputy Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry (Ms Siliya): Mr Speaker, there have been 653 foreign investors from 2001 to 2006 and a total of US$1,421,557,760 worth of investment has been brought into the country. The investors have invested in agriculture, construction, engineering, financial institutions, health, manufacturing, mining, services, tourism and transport.

Mr Speaker, part of the answer has a schedule on the specific amounts invested in the various sectors, the numbers of projects and the number of jobs created and is as follows:

Sector  No. of Projects    Foreign Investment   No. of
      US$    Jobs created

Agriculture  160   193,827,291   20,298

Construction  51   176,827,905   2,187

Engineering  1   476,000   12

Financial Institutions 1   75,700    19
Health  10   2,513,017   167

Manufacturing 207   655,822,184   13,654

Mining  30   171,939,822   4,290

Services  96   104,374,328   4,713

Tourism  79   84,192,504   2,567

Transport  18   31,509,009   1,278

Total   653   1,421,557,760   49,185

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sejani: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether there are particular sectors of our economy where foreign investment is particularly sought and whether there are certain sectors which are supposed to only attract local investment.

Ms Siliya: Mr Speaker, yes, indeed, the Government would like to see foreign investment in certain sectors of the economy to push for accelerated growth. These sectors include agriculture, manufacturing, textiles, rubber and rubber products, wood and wood products as well as chemical and chemical products. Overall, the general sectors include agriculture, mining, construction and tourism.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mtonga (Kanyama): Mr Speaker, following the hon. Deputy Minister’s answer, …

Mr Kambwili: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.
Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, I rise on a very serious point of order concerning basic schools in my constituency. I wonder why the hon. Minister of Education should be quiet when all the basic schools in Roan Constituency have not been adequately funded for the past one year. The schools have now accumulated water bills of over K10 million per school and the water utility company has threatened to disconnect water from these schools which will pose a danger to school going children.

Sir, I am concerned about why the hon. Minister of Education should be quiet and not address this issue.

Mr Speaker: The hon. Member for Roan has raised a point of order, which, in fact, is suitable for the kind of debate that is going on in this House. He should have debated that issue when he made his contribution to the debate on the Motion by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning. He still has an opportunity to debate that issue when the Vote on the Ministry of Education is debated in this House at a later and appropriate date. In any case, what the hon. Member is saying is the very reason that this House is in session to approve the Budget for the current twelve months. You refer to the previous one year of no funding for the schools in your constituency and it is very likely that all hon. Members of Parliament can raise a similar point of order in their constituencies. For now, you have an opportunity now to pass a new budget for implementation during the current twelve months.

Mtonga (Kanyama): Mr Speaker, I would like to from the hon. Minister if there are any measures to control the investors that have created 100,000 or so jobs in the investment sector to control them in the sense that whilst both this House and His Excellency President Mwanawasa SC, threatening those investors that come into this country and do not engage Zambians and the respective tasks they seek to do in Zambia. What measures are there to control investors not to bring their own people to cut trees in Western Province when we have our own people who can do that?
Ms Siliya: Mr Speaker, first of all, the investment law is very clear. The minimum investment in this country is U S$250,000. For a foreign investor, the minimum number of expatriates is supposed to be five.

This morning I was with His Excellency the President when he was swearing in the Citizen Economic Empowerment Commissioners. Again, we were reminded that the Citizen Economic Empowerment Act clearly provides for such measures and that more opportunities should be given to Zambians. More incentives are also provided for in the Act for companies that employ more Zambians, have citizen influence and are joint ventures. This is all part of the Government’s policy to try and address the very question that the hon. Member for Kanyama would like to be addressed.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze): Mr Speaker, I would like the hon. Minister to confirm that the Government has conferred diplomatic immunity on some investors. Consequently, those investors have been abusing Zambians who have been unable to sue in order to get redress from the courts of law.

Ms Siliya: Mr Speaker, first of all, I am not aware that there are some investors who have been given diplomatic immunity and, as such, cannot be taken to the courts of law in Zambia. I think that every foreign investor coming into this country has to operate within the existing laws of the country. My ministry works very closely with the Ministry of Labour and Social Security to ensure that Zambians are not abused in their own country. This is why we are going to go on a countrywide tour to sensitise Zambians, the private sector and even foreign investors who actually need sensitisation on what prevails in this country as far as labour laws are concerned.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Imenda (Lukulu East): Mr Speaker, taking a leaf from the mines, I would like to find out from the Deputy Minister how many investors outside mining have benefited from the tax holidays.

Ms Siliya: Mr Speaker, I believe that is a new question. Given time, we will prepare so that we can give an adequate answer.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister confirm that an investor, in particular NFC Mining of Chambeshi, has been using Chinese prisoners.

The Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources (Mr Pande): Mr Speaker, the ministry or the Government in general is not aware of that. If the hon. Member has information, we will be grateful to have it.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr V. Mwale (Chipangali): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out if the Government is doing anything to attract investors to invest in the processing of tobacco because, at the moment, we are exporting raw tobacco to Malawi for processing.

Ms Siliya: Mr Speaker, I did say that one of the priority areas in which the Government would like to see investment in this country is agriculture which includes agro-processing. Schedule 2 of the Zambia Development Agency Act lists some priority sectors to which investors are being attracted. It provides that they will qualify for the incentives within the ZDA if they invest in these areas. Tobacco is one of the sectors within agro-processing. Therefore, this Government is doing everything possible to attract investment in the tobacco industry so that we can add value to tobacco and not just export it as a raw material.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi) Mr Speaker, out of the jobs that the hon. Minister said were created, I would like to find out how many went to foreigners.

Ms Siliya: Mr Speaker, that is a new question, but I will attempt to give an answer.

Sir, I did say that the Investment Act in this country stipulates that an investor can come to this country with US $250,000 and they are only allowed to bring in five expatriates. Therefore, the majority of the jobs that this investor is supposed to create are supposed to go to Zambians.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC (Chasefu): Mr Speaker, may the hon. Minister tell the House how many out of the total number of investors that have come into Zambia since 2001 have since pulled out and for what reasons.

Ms Siliya: Mr Speaker, again, that is a new question. For me to give an answer to satisfy the hon. Member, we need to be given time to prepare adequately.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

RENEGOTIATING OF CONTRACTS FOR MINES PURCHASED FROM ZCCM

345. Mr Sejani (Mapatizya) asked the Minister of Mines and Mineral Development when the Government would start renegotiating the contracts entered into with some of the investors who purchased the mines during the privatisation of ZCCM.

The Deputy Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr M. Mwale): Mr Speaker, the Government was spending US$1 million per day to run the mines at the time of privatisation. During negotiations to privatise ZCCM, the nation stood weak in the bargaining process because of low commodity prices. The Government gave incentives to mining companies in order to attract investment into the sector.

Mr Speaker, the incentives that have been provided to investors in Zambia coupled with the current favourable commodity prices on the world market have generally impacted positively on Zambia’s economy. Annual copper production following ZCCM’s privatisation increased from 256,884 metric tonnes in 2000 to 492,016 metric tonnes in 2006. Technological innovations and expansion programmes introduced by the new mine owners have boosted production. The price of copper increased from an average of US$0.72 per pound in 2000 to an average of US$3.15 per pound as at end November 2006.

Sir, given the significant improvements in base metal prices, the Government has appointed a team headed by the Secretary to the Treasury to review all development agreements signed with mining companies to identify clauses which need to be amended in order to make them favourable to both the Government and investors. The negotiating team is scheduled to commence discussions with the mining companies at the end of March, 2007.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwansa (Chifunabuli): Mr Speaker, I just want to find out what has happened to the golden share and what the Government is going to do concerning it in the current negotiations.
The Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Dr Mwansa): Mr Speaker, the golden share still exists and we made this point clear when we debated and gave the percentage ownership of all mining houses in which ZCCM had tremendous interest. However, these negotiations are about the tax regime and to maximise tax revenue from the copper and cobalt earnings for the many projects the Government intends to embark on.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Speaker, the issue of mining development agreements has been a source of worry to this House. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister if they have considered putting Members from the Committee on Mining of this House on the committee that is going to negotiate.

Dr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, this is a Government programme and there are competent officers in my ministry and the Ministry of Finance and National Planning to renegotiate. They are very competent officers and I do not think we need to import manpower from anywhere.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

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COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the Chair]

ESTIMATES OF REVENUE AND EXPENDITURE (INCLUDING CAPITAL AND CONSTITUTIONAL AND STATUTORY EXPENDITURE) FOR THE YEAR 1ST JANUARY, 2007 TO 31ST DECEMBER, 2007

VOTE 01 – (Office of the President – State House – K18,998,354,852).

The Vice-President (Mr R. Banda): Madam Chairperson, I wish to thank you most sincerely for according me this opportunity to present to this august House the 2007 Estimates of Recurrent Expenditure for Head 01/01 – Office of the President – State House.

Madam Chairperson, the mission statement of State House is to provide visionary and effective economic, social and political leadership to the nation in line with the Constitution in order to facilitate sustainable development and promote peace, stability and democratic governance.

Madam Chairperson, State House will endeavour to operationalise this mission statement to provide a conductive environment under which the presidency will effectively and efficiently guide the operations of the Government, promote national unity, attain economic growth, minimise levels of corruption and reduce levels of poverty in the country.

Overview of 2006 Operations

Madam Chairperson, State House, like all other Government institutions, experienced some difficulties in its operations arising from the economic hardships in the country which provided for a lower authorised budget making it difficult for us to meet all our obligations. State House was restructured under the Public Service Reform Programme (PSRP) with 84 per cent of the positions on its establishment filled in accordance with the Public Service procedures and practices. This is expected to enhance the strategic nature of State House of providing leadership and direction to the nation. The Public Service Reform Programme allowed for the comprehensive review of both the operational and organisational frame work. This enabled our institution to effectively and efficiently implement the Government’s programmes across ministerial and agency lines as it responds to critical challenges and opportunities of Presidential importance and priority.{mospagebreak}

Budget for 2007

Madam Chairperson, the Budget for 2007 is based on the development focus of the Vision 2030 and the Fifth National Development Plan and the fundamentals of the 2007 – 2009 Medium Term Expenditure Framework (MTEF).

Madam Chairperson, State House’s core functions are:

(i) Presidential Secretariat – responsible for efficient and effective execution of Presidential operations;

(ii) Advisory Services – responsible for providing professional and technical services and advice on various matters brought to the attention of the President; and

(iii) Administration – responsible for the provision of administrative logistical support services.

In order for State House to carry out its mandate, it is important that it is adequately funded. State House shall, among its programmes, continue to fill up the remaining vacant posts in the new structure and pay terminal benefits to officers whose services are terminated due to the restructuring exercise.

Madam Chairperson, the high mobility of State House operations requires the maintenance of VIP and operational transport fleets at very high standards. Equally, the fleet of utility vehicles requires immediate replacement. State House also requires to replace its office furniture as most of it was bought nearly twelve years ago.

Madam Chairperson, the other area of concern is the state of State House buildings and surroundings. As you may be aware, State House was constructed in 1935 and the building is seventy two years old. The repair and maintenance programmes are, therefore, inevitable and are on-going.

Madam Chairperson, we are mindful that we do not have sufficient resources to construct a new State House like has been the case with some African countries after attaining independence. In this regard, we would like to maintain what we have so that the Government can equitably share out the meagre national resources to other very need areas.

Madam Chairperson, with our maintenance programme, we would like to ensure that State House and State Lodge Compounds, which house our members of staff, are maintained to acceptable standards.

Financial Allocation to State House

Activity        Amount

Personal emoluments         K5.8 billion;

Recurrent Departmental Charges       K13 billion;

Institutional Support – grants State Lodge Farm    K132.5 million

Grand total –        K18.9 billion.

In conclusion, Madam Chairperson, I wish to make an earnest appeal to this august House to support the 2007 State House budget so that all the programmes are adequately funded.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Madam Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the debate on this Vote.

Madam Chairperson, I will be very brief, but I would like to state that the problem, to a person like me, when we are given a budget to consider is that we are given a budget with figures which were approved last year but we are not given the actuals. It is very difficult for us to make a proper decision when you look at the figures as they come through.

Madam Speaker, under Head 01, for State House rehabilitation, there is Programme 8, Activity 02 – House keeping – K883 million and Activity 04 – Landscaping – K112 million and Programme 2, Activity 05 – Maintenance of State House – K503 million. The total is K1.5 billion just on rehabilitation. I wonder why we have more figures under the Ministry of Works and Supply amounting to K6.8 billion on the same item. To me, this is where the problem is. It is like at State House, you are hiding figures in the Ministry of Works and Supply which is not very good.

Madam Chairperson, we would like to support the Vote, but it is important that all the figures and costs pertaining to State House are transparent for every person to see rather than having figures on page 526 of this Yellow Book which have the same things appearing under Head 01.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo): Madam Chairperson, while I support this budget, I would like to ask State House why the administrative costs have shot up from K200 million to over K1 billion. I do not know what is going on there that has resulted in this jump from K200 million last year to over K1 billion this time.

Madam Chairperson, we are also getting concerned that of the excess expenditure of K1.2 billion K650,000,000 was spent on management of vehicles at State House. His Honour the Vice-President has said that it is very difficult to manage the fleet of vehicles. Maybe, the fleet of vehicles is getting too big. When you walk around State House, you see too many vehicles. If the problem is that the vehicles are getting old, why do we not shift them to departments that do not have any transport at all and buy new vehicles for State House so that the cost of maintaining the vehicle fleet does not go to the levels pertaining now.

Madam Chairperson, another thing I would like to talk about is that when the MMD came into power, they were not in love with the State Lodge Farm and there was no budget for it. All of a sudden, we are seeing K132 million being budgeted for the State Lodge Farm. I know the President is a good farmer elsewhere. What crops are they going to grow or what is going to happen there with the kind of money budgeted for?

Madam Chairperson, when the MMD took over power, I remember there were some musical instruments at the State Lodge Farm which they removed because they said they belonged to the son of the former President. Now we see over K100 million budgeted for the State Lodge Farm. What maize growing is going on there? I would like to know what will be done at the State Lodge Farm now which the MMD had neglected in fifteen years.

Madam Chairperson, I hope that with the50 per cent increase in the budgetary allocation to State House which was at K12 billion and is now at K18 we will not have huge supplementary estimates. I also hope that the management of the fleet of vehicles will be controlled. Maybe, the people using vehicles there are careless. They spent K5 billion last year and now they are asking for K4.9 billion, which means that they are asking for the same amount as last year. If they buy new VIP vehicles, the cost should come down. The old vehicles should be sent to other departments within Government so that we reduce on costs.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Mooya (Moomba): Madam Chairperson, I stand to support the Vote. In supporting the Vote, I have the following comments to make. His Honour the Vice-President said that State House was constructed in 1935 and, therefore, is seventy-two years old. At the same time, Hon. Mukanga said that some costs meant for repairing State House were hidden somewhere under the Ministry of Works and Supply while some amounts were reflected under State House. This tells me that we, probably, need to build a new State House because the cost of repair is too high. I was looking at last year’s repair costs and they came to something like K5 billion. The other hon. Member of Parliament said that it was around K6 billion this year. I remember during Questions for Oral Answer, the hon. Minister of Works and Supply did not tell us how much it has cost to repair State House since 1935. This tells a story that State House is very old and we require a new one. Someone is saying it is a death trap. I really think it is better we debate the idea of putting up a new State House. We should not be shy. If other countries are building new state houses, why can we not do the same? Maybe, that way we can save.

Madam Chairperson, coming to the issue of houses for the three Presidents, the two former Presidents and the current one, the principle of putting up houses for the two is not there. I have been told that the provision is under the Ministry of Works and Supply and so I will not go into details. For now I will end here and give chance to others to debate.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Thank you very much, Madam Chairperson.

I want to borrow the words of the hon. Deputy Minister in the President’s Office when he said State House should not be considered as a partisan institution. I agree with him entirely. It should not be considered partisan. It is an important house in which we have the Head of State. For that reason, I think as we debate this Motion, the Vote for the Office of the President – State House, we must be aware of the fact that we are talking about an institution of governance.

Madam Chairperson, having said that, I would like to take advantage of the monies that are allocated here and advise my colleagues who have the function of advising the Head of State to give him good, honest and sincere advice. The occupant of this house should be seen at any time and at all times to speak for and on behalf of the Zambian people. Advisors at State House must not bring our President into unnecessary embarrassment as occurred when he went to Green Eagles without an invitation, when he announced that K3 trillion of our money had been stolen and when they advised him to appoint a minister to lead a team to an Anti-Corruption Forum in South Africa only to have him dismiss her the following day on the basis of being corrupt. The advisors must advise our President to make statements that shall stand the test of time. We cannot waste money keeping a person in this House if the advisors around him are ill-qualified to advise him. It is sad that the President can send a person to South Africa to lead a team, including parliamentarians, to a Forum on Anti-Corruption and, the very next day, she is proved to be corrupt and dismissed on charges of corruption. Where are the advisors?

Hon. Opposition Members: Shame!

Mr Lubinda: That is extremely sad. I think that the advisors must keep clear tabs on these people.

Madam Chairperson, let me now move on to the actual allocations to State House. If you care to go through all the pages in the Yellow Book, you will not find anywhere except in Head 01/01 – Office of the President – State House where there has been an increase of 50 per cent to the amount which this House approved in the year 2006. From K12 billion allocated last year, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning is asking this House to approve K18 billion. How come it is only State House that deserves a 50 per cent increase? Is it only State House that is hit by inflation? Is it only State House that deserves such an unproportional increase in allocations? The hon. Minister in his debate was saying they are becoming transparent on showing some figures that hitherto were covered up. I wonder what that means if you relate it to the amount of money allocated to office administration as Hon. Muntanga said. From K286 million, you now want to allocate K1.25 billion for administration at State House. What is it that you would like to improve which was not working properly? Is it that you have increased this amount of money so that you advise the President correctly?

Mr Kasongo: It is a retirement package.

Mr Lubinda: Is it because he complained that the filing system at State House is bad? Does it require K1 billion to improve the filing system? I think that the amount of money you are allocating here does not make any sense at all. You should not allocate money for the sake of buying loyalty. I think you should allocate money because State House needs it.

Now, if the hon. Deputy Minister for Finance National Planning looks at staff welfare, can he give any justification whatsoever why only staff at State House require an increase from K75 million to K200 million? What about the other staff? What about the other civil servants? Are you giving them an equal increase? Why only State House? Are you saying that the officers at State House are the only ones who deserve increased staff welfare?

I want to draw your attention also to the issue of house-keeping at State House. Has the family at State House increased two fold to demand a double allocation to what you allocated last year? Are you saying that number of occupants of State House has increased to a level where you demand an increase of 200 per cent? Are you saying that the number of guests at State House this year will be more than they were last year?

Hon. Members: Chinese!

Mr Lubinda: Over and above that, the hon. Deputy Minister at State House said he did not want to hide figures such as the K78 million that has been allocated to animals. One can assume that the K78 million was allocated last year within the figure of K400 million. I would have expected to see a reduction in that figure because you have now decided to bring out the money you are spending on feeding animals, and yet we do not see a decrease anywhere. What sense does it make? Certainly, it does not make any sense. I would like to suggest that, please, do not do things that bring the President’s image into question.

Mr Mtonga: Ni zoona!

Mr Lubinda: It is you, yourselves, who are allocating so much money to bring the society against the President.

Mr Mtonga: Yah!

Mr Lubinda: When you allocate 50 per cent, K6 billion, more than you allocated last year, what do you expect the society to say? Society is not willing to see people demand an increase in their conditions of service, not even the Head of State.

Hon. Ben Tetamashimba, you should care to understand what I am saying. The K78 million allocated to the animals at State House works out to K780,000 per animal.

Interruptions

Hon. Opposition Members: Ikala, iwe.

Mr Tetamashimba: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Tetamashimba: Is the hon. Member of Parliament, who does not greet me since I raised a point of order, in order to mention me when the Vote is about the President’s Office and the Deputy Minister in the Office of the President is quietly listening to him so that he responds? Is he in order to mention me when I am seated comfortably here making my own comments? I need your serious ruling.

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: Order!

The hon. Deputy Minister of Works and Supply is concerned about Hon. Lubinda mentioning his name in his debate even though he was listening quietly. He also said that they have some relationship. My ruling on this point of order is that Hon. Lubinda may debate without drawing the hon. Deputy Minister of Works and Supply into his debate.

May the hon. Member continue, please.

Hon. PF Members: Hammer!

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, the National Assembly of Zambia gardens have impalas. Mulungushi International Conference Centre has impalas. As a matter of fact, there are more impalas at Mulungushi International Conference Centre than at State House, and yet nobody here is able to tell me what amount of money is going to be spent to feed the animals at Mulungushi International Conference Centre.

Mr Shakafuswa: On a point of order, Madam.

Mr Lubinda: Let me just make it very clear to my young brother, the hon. Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning that …

Interruptions

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Shakafuswa: Madam Chairperson, I rise on a very serious point of order. When we speak in this House, we should not make assumptions. We should not speak out of hatred.

Interruptions

Mr Shakafuswa: Shut up!

Hon. Members: Aah!

Interruptions

Mr Shakafuswa: What!

Interruptions

Mr Shakafuswa: Get out!

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order! May the hon. Minister withdraw that word and apologise because that is extremely unparliamentary.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shakafuswa: Madam Chairperson, I withdraw that word.

Hon. PF Members: Apologise!
Interruptions

Mr Shakafuswa: Mr Lubinda, …

Hon. PF Members: No, apologise!

Mr Tetamashimba: Who are you in the first place?

Mr Shakafuswa: I am not going to repeat myself. Do you want to take it personally?

Hon. Government Members: Go ahead!

Mr Shakafuswa: Madam, when Hon. Lubinda says that Mulungushi Conference Centre has more animals than State House, I would rather he gives statistics because I have statistics of the animals at State House. When we talk, it is out of spite. I think all of you want to go to State House. Work hard and go to State House.

Interruptions

Mr Shakafuswa: Is the hon. Member in order to mislead this House with fake statistics? Let him give us the number of animals that are at Mulungushi Conference Centre and State House so that we know who is cheating this House and misleading the nation. I seek your serious ruling.

Interruptions

Mr Shakafuswa: You will never get there

Hon. PF Members: Aah!

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order! The hon. Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning is concerned that Hon. Lubinda’s debate and the numbers he has given are misleading to the House. His concern is that the numbers he has referred to ought to be substantiated. My ruling is that Hon. Lubinda should give the comparative figures as he knows them if he has them. Otherwise, he should withdraw that statement.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: May the hon. Member continue, please.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear! Hammer!

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, when I started my debate, I appealed to my colleagues to refer to State House and consider it as a house of governance; an important institution of governance in this country and not to consider it as though it were an extension of their village.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: They must not consider it as though it is an extension of their grandfather’s farm. They must not consider State House as though they were born in State and shall die there. That is a house of governance in this country. This House has been mandated by law to debate whatever is allocated to that house …

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: … irrespective of the relationships that we have at State House. I would like to appeal to everybody here to handle this matter with cool tempers and not bring in emotions based on tribal inclinations, …

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Lubinda: … friendships or whatever relationships.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: Order!

The advice of the hon. Member on the Floor to the House that we should debate this matter with cool tempers and minds is very important. My advice is that the hon. Member on the Floor should start with himself by being cool and debating without emotion.

May the hon. Member, please, continue debating without emotion and with a very cool temper.

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, small amount as it may sound, when I look at the K78 million, my heart goes out to the little children out there and I become emotional because you have given them K7,400 per child, and yet the animals at State House, have been given K780,000 per animal. That evokes emotion in me. It is not based on any other thing, but the fact that you are giving the Zambian children; the ones we should bequeath this country K7,400 per child, and yet you are allocating K78 million to wild animals at State House.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Mr Lubinda: The reason I brought in Mulungushi Conference Centre and Parliament is because in their allocations, there is nothing for veterinary medicines for animals at Parliament. How come it is only animals at State House that deserve K78 million for veterinary medicine and feed? Can somebody explain to this House and the country? All this time that animals have been at State House, how have they been fed?

Mr Magande: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Interruptions

Mr Magande: Madam Chairperson, I seek your serious ruling. Is the hon. Member for Kabwata in order to talk about K7,000 per child without telling us where he is getting the statistics of children from? Is he in order to say that the allocation in this Budget is only for animals at State House without referring to the Budget for Zambia Wildlife Authority (ZAWA), which is responsible for looking after more of the animals in this country? Is he in order to say that we only cater for animals at State House without referring to the role that ZAWA has played to develop this country?

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Members, before I make a ruling on that point of order, let me say that it is not honourable for us to shout from our seats. Hon. Members are here to debate and each one of you will be given an opportunity to debate. Therefore, it is not in the manner we do business in this House for you to shout at one another. May hon. Members be orderly in their debate.

The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning is concerned that the hon. Member for Kabwata is bringing out figures in his debate. His concern is where he is getting these figures of a child being given K7,000 and an animal K78,000 from. Let me guide Hon. Lubinda that when he debates, facts must come out because some people do not have the Budget and, therefore, what you say becomes a fact to them. Can you debate facts.

Will the hon. Member for Kabwata continue, please.

Mr Lubinda: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

I appeal to the House, again, particularly on my left, that shouting is not allowed. You must listen because that is how honourable you are expected to be. Listen to what Hon. Lubinda is saying and listen to the concerns of the Government so that we arrive at a consensus and accept what we have said in this House.

Will the hon. Member for Kabwata continue, please.

Mr Lubinda: Thank you, Madam Chairperson. The facts that I am giving before this House with regard to the amount of money allocated to the youth are provided in the Yellow Book. I propose to the hon. Ministry of Finance and National Planning that, if he is too busy, let him ask his budget analyst to check how much has been allocated to the Department of Youth, Sport and Child Development and divide that by the number of youth in this country. The figure is K7,400 per child.

Mr Shakafuswa: What about education?

Interruptions.
Hon. Opposition Members: Do not shout.

Mr Lubinda: If the officers at the ministry are not capable of making the analysis, I will make it for them. I have done it before and I can do it again.

Madam Chairperson, I also want to say that I am not debating ZAWA, but State House. This must be clear. I am talking about the K78 million which has been allocated to animals at State House. I shall debate ZAWA when the Head for ZAWA comes. I hope that is a fact. Is there anything to complain about or to rise on a point of order on? I am saying that under Head 01, you have allocated K78 million to feed animals at State House. If we have failed to keep those animals caged at State House, I have a good proposal. Take them back into the wilderness where God will take care of them.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: God shall provide for them. He is providing for all the animals out there in the wilderness. Why should you take money from children and give it to animals purely because we want people to go and watch them at State House? They can go and watch them in the game parks. As a matter of fact, that is when we will encourage local tourism. If people at State House love animals so much, they will pay to go and watch them in game parks if we have failed to keep them at State House without having to spend this amount of money.

I want to end my debate, Madam Chairperson, on this vote by appealing to the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning that this House ought to be given the respect that is due to it. The only way you respect an institution such as State House is to live by the word of the occupant of State House. President Mwanawasa has stated at various fora that he is a modest person. Please, match his demand of modesty with the allocation to his office. What you are doing here is implying that President Mwanawasa says one thing to the Zambian people and tells you another.

Hon. PF Member: You are embarrassing him.

Mr Lubinda: Those who know him better than you know that he means it when he says he wants to live a modest life. However, you are forcing him to appear in the public eye as a man filled with so much greed that out of all the votes in here, only his deserves an increase of 50 per cent. This is not fair, Hon. Magande. I want to say to you, …

Mr Mtonga: Ni zoona.

Mr Lubinda: … my colleagues in Government, that while you hope that you are doing good for the President and winning his favour, you are bringing his image into ridicule.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: I propose to you, hon. Minister, that figures such as the ones that I mentioned here require further reflection. You will be doing well for yourselves, the occupant of State House and doing even better for the Zambian people if you went back and reduced the allocation that you are proposing for State House. I have to say that you are very lucky that Head 01/01 is the first to come. Otherwise, I can assure you that you would have seen lots of papers flying around to amend this Head. However, with the respect that we have for the house concerned as an important house of governance, we would like to ask the hon. Minister to do what the Zambian people and President Mwanawasa expect of you; to make this a modest budget.
I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muyanda (Sinazongwe): I thank you, Madam Chairperson, for allowing me to catch your eye so that I can make a brief contribution to the debate on State House.

Madam, I have additional information to make to Programme 8, Activity 04 –Landscaping and Gardening – K112,189,999. State House is a house for all of us. It is a house which should be respected and which if the Zambian cake was big, we would have said you should add more money to.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muyanda: Madam Chairperson, the K112 million provided for landscaping and gardening is reasonably sufficient to maintain State House, but I hope part of it will go to the maintenance of the golf course at State House. The golf course at State House requires a lot of rehabilitation. It helps State House raise money through golf tournaments. These tournaments help to raise money for the underprivileged. At the moment, the State House Golf Course is not functioning. If you recall, during the days of the former President, Dr Kaunda, State House golf tournaments were brilliant and vibrant. This is what we would like to see today. I am fully aware that Hon. Phiri was once my Vice-Captain when I was Captain of the Chilanga Golf Club. I am sure he will help reactivate the golf club so that we can raise funds for the underprivileged. We should make sure that this kind of money is used to the optimum to ensure that the children, the handicapped and others realise more from it. I would also like to mention that the hon. Deputy Minister of Tourism is a well-experienced golfer, who, I suppose, if given an opportunity to manage the golf course, one of these days, would help some hon. Members of Parliament have a very good golf tournament. Hon. Milupi is also one of the very good golfers that we have in this House.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muyanda: Therefore, with the help of our President, we would have a very good team that would help us fundraise. I remember, at one stage, he officiated at a tournament. This means that he has some form of interest too.

In good faith, this Vote should be supported and I hope that all hon. Members will utilise the golf course at State House to optimum levels.

Madam Chairperson, with these few words, I wish to thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Kambwili (Roan): Madam Chairperson, my debate will only focus on Programme 8, Activity 4 – Landscaping and Gardening – K112,189,999.00.

Madam Chairperson, I wish to register my disappointment with the fact that despite State House being allocated K100 million in last year’s Budget, the State House surroundings are extremely dirty. The only time that we saw new flowers being grown at State House was when Mr Michael Sata was Governor of Lusaka. For many years, we have not seen any good flowers outside State House. When you travel along Independence Avenue, you wonder whether you are at State House or in some guard’s house in Kalingalinga.

Madam Chairperson, the people responsible for the cleanliness of State House must be serious with what they do. This is taxpayers’ money translated into about K12 million per month to look after the cleanliness of State House. In supporting the K78 million allocated to this activity, I wish to emphasis that we must change the way we look at the cleanliness of State House.

Like previous speakers have said, State House is not an MMD or PF house. We know that in 2011 we shall also be in State House and we want to find a clean State House.

Laughter

Mr Kambwili: Madam Speaker, I want to be part of the Government in 2011 that is going to be proud of passing through a clean State House and not the State House that we see now. If the workers at State House cannot utilise about K12 million to clean it, they must resign on moral grounds.

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

The Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Simbao): Madam Chairperson, State House is a very unique institution. It is basically like a ministry except that its status is slightly above that. Working at State House is not an easy matter. When I was there in 2002, the President refused to spend any money on anything. There were torn seats in the foyer, stained curtains and doors with no latchets that could lock. He refused entirely to change even the furniture and linen in his home. It was a shame in my two years of working at State House. Whenever we had dignitaries from other countries, you could see how much disappointed they were upon seeing the furniture in the foyer. Do we not see …

Mr Mukanga interjected.

Mr Simbao: I am telling you that I was there for two years. You were not there. You wait to go there.

Interruptions

Mr Simbao: I am trying to highlight that we should not destroy an institution that anyone who comes into this country wants to see. That is one institution they want to go to because they want to meet the President. The first thing that greets you immediately you get there is how badly things have deteriorated at that place.

In 2011, God willing or whatever the case may be, somebody go into State House and I do not know what they would say about the Government if they found totally damaged furniture. It is important that since this is the last term of Mr Mwanawasa, I hope that he does not take that hard-fisted stance he has been using in the previous years of refusing to put money in State House. He has been so difficult when it comes to trying to renovate that place. It is important to understand that somebody else is going to go there in 2011 and that person must find it a pleasure to enter State House.
Therefore, the funding that we have allocated to State House is very important as it will uplift the place so that when the next President comes, he will have no problems with regard to the surroundings of State House. He must concentrate on governing the country.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simbao: We should allow these things that we are doing for that institution to go on and not just make an issue for the sake of making an issue of it.

Mr Tetamashimba: quality!

Mr Simbao: Madam Chairperson, I worked there for two years and it was a difficult time because things were bad. Even today, if you go there, you will find that there are certain seats that you will be told not to sit on because they are in bad shape. That is how they found it and now people want us to leave it like that.

Hon. Government Members: No!

Mr Simbao: Doing so will be as good as though somebody has not been there for the last ten years. We refuse that. When Mr Mwanawasa leaves State House, we want the next President to see that there has been a Government in place and it has taken care of the highest institution in the country. It is very important that we support this Vote and every allocation to it.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Madam Chairperson, I would like to say a few words resulting from the debate that has just taken place in this House and to ask you that for the specific replies to the queries that have been made by the hon. Members of this House, my colleague, the hon. Deputy Minister, will come after me. I merely want to thank all hon. Members who stood up this afternoon to make comments and debate on the State House requirements.

Madam Chairperson, I want to ask the hon. Members to accept that I really mean what I say when I say, ‘Thank you,’ to everyone because each one of us, even those who digressed and said all kinds of things about State House, did admit that this institution was very important to all of us and that it belonged to the Zambian people and not to any particular political party or individual. I would like to thank in particular, Hon. Kambwili, Hon. Lubinda, Hon. Mooya and many others who have spoken in support of the budget for State House.

I would like to advise my colleagues that we should stay as correct as possible in our analysis of this budget and, indeed, all the other items that will come after this. It is not correct, and I am sure Hon. Lubinda, who is very bright and one of the most interesting debaters of this House, will agree that is not correct to say that only State House has had an increase of 50 per cent because if you look at the whole budget, you will find that there are other ministries which have higher percentages.

Hon. Opposition Members: Which ones?

The Vice-President: I will give then to you, please. Be a little patient with me because it is the first time I have ever had an altercation with my colleague. I just want to show you that it is not only State House that has had an increase of 50 per cent.

The Ministry of Local Government and Housing has had an increase of 95 per cent. The Ministry of Works and Supply has had an increase of 100 per cent. I do not know if we have all read the book entitled How to Lie With Statistics.

Laughter

The Vice-President: When Hon. Lubinda stood up, he said the Government had allocated K7,000 for a child in Zambia and K78 million for an animal. It is not correct.

Interruptions
The Vice-President: Yes, you are very clever. You know what you are doing. It is true that there is a provision of K78 million for the animals at State House. You did not enumerate the number of those animals, but for the children, you immediately converted it to one child and compared it to K78 million. I think it is not fair. For the public out there listening to this, they get inflamed and think that we have lost our sensitivity.

I would defend you, Mr Lubinda or anybody else if somebody accused you of something which was not correct. I do not believe that President Mwanawasa, his ministers or the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning can deliberately allocate to an animal so much money and to a child only so little.

I would really like to ask that we debate these issues as much as we like, but agree that we can suggest alterations on how we should proceed with issues without making the people out there think that one group or another in this House is insensitive to the requirements of the people of Zambia. We all are. The only difference is that you may be in the Opposition today and we may be in Government today, but tomorrow you may be in Government and you would not like the country to be told that you care more about animals than you care about people.

Mr Sichilima: Tabakateke. Fitekwafye, ifyo!

The Vice-President: Madam Chairperson, I would like, once again, to thank all the hon. Members of this House for supporting this budget as it refers to State House and I ask them, once again, to, please, stay as close as possible to the facts.

It was said that the President had been ill advised and you will understand my interest because I am number one advisor to the President followed by my colleagues in Cabinet. It was said that he went to Green Eagles without being invited. Although I was not there at the time, I follow what happens in this country and know that he was actually invited to Green Eagles.

Interruptions

The Vice-President: I am sorry, but that is the fact that I know, Maybe, you read a different paper.

Laughter

The Vice-President: With regard to the K3 trillion announcement that he made, an hon. Member said that he was misadvised to make a statement that public servants had consumed K3 trillion …

Mr Lubinda: Stole!

The Vice-President: Yes, stolen and consumed. Personally, and we may be different in evaluating situations, I am very proud of President Mwanawasa because…

Hon. Opposition Members: Because he appointed you!

The Vice-President: … very few Presidents …

Interruptions

The Vice-President: I wish you could listen to me. Very few Presidents would agree that they were misinformed and that the figure was actually K36 billion.

Interruptions

The Vice-President: I have lived through a lot of presidents not only in Zambia, but all over the world and I read that presidents tend to be very proud people. They do not accept that they have made a mistake, but our President came out publicly and said so. I think we all need to congratulate him for that.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: I would like to thank you, once again, before I conclude, by saying that let us keep the spirit of this House. At the end of the day, when we come out from this door, we are all parliamentarians. When criticisms are made against us, sometimes for asking for genuine increases in our own emoluments, they mean all of us. They do not condemn only those in Government. Therefore, the manner in which we try to make points must not be in order to gain points against the Opposition and vice-versa.

I thank you very much.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 01/01 – (Office of the President – State House – Headquarters – K18,998,354,852).

Mr Hachipuka (Mbabala): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 2, Activity 02 – Payment for Utility Bills – K2.4 billion. Does this mean that the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning has never provided for this and has made State House live for years without paying for water and electricity? What kind of Government is this?

The Deputy Minister in the President’s Office (Mr Taima): Madam Chairperson, the background to the provision in the proposed Estimates of Expenditure under Programme 2, Activity 02 – Payment for Utility Bills – K2.4 billion is that previously utility bills for State House were being taken care of under the Ministry of Finance and National Planning. However, this time around it has been decided that State House takes care of its own utility bills.

Further details of the composition of the K2.4 billion is as follows: K1,440,000,000 is an estimate for telephone bills. We have an average monthly bill of K120,000,000 at State House.
Laughter

Mr Taima: The other component of the K2.4 billion is a provision of K300,000,000 for electricity bills. The average monthly bill in this respect is K25,000,000. Another component is the provision for water and sewerage bills which is K660,000,000 for the whole year with the average monthly bill being K55,000,000

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 8, Activity 02 – House Keeping – State House – K883,821,600. Could I be informed on what has necessitated the doubling of the allocation to House Keeping from K400,000,000 to K883,821,600.

Madam Chairperson, with your permission, with regard to Programme 8, Activity 05 – Management of State House Wild Animals – K78,576,000 …

Laughter

Mr Lubinda: … I ask to be informed how many animals there are at State House and what the allocation is per animal and how that compares to K59,000,000 allocated to 6 million children. How do those figures compare if it is not K7,400 per child and K503,000 per animal?

The Chairperson: You are debating.

Mr Taima: Madam Chairperson, the hon. Member of Parliament for Kabwata has asked for statistics on the livestock that we keep at State House. As far as I am concerned, this question comes as a surprise because earlier he gave amounts of money per animal. This expressed to me that he must have had this information much earlier. For the benefit of the House, I wish to state that the composition of the livestock at State House is as follows:

Name of Animal Number of Animals

Impalas  96

Duikers   36

Lechwes  23

Spotted Deer  09

Guinea fowls more than 300

Peacocks  more than 300

Fish ponds  02

Monkeys  more than 200

Ducks  120

Ostriches  02

Madam Chairperson, when we make a provision for animals at State House, we are not just budgeting for the duikers and impalas that Hon. Lubinda could have seen. There are many other animals that we keep there.

Interruptions

Mr Taima: Madam Chairperson, I want to take advantage of this opportunity to mention to this House that when we are debating or discussing State House, the House should be aware of the fact that State House is not just the State House in Lusaka. The provisions we are making actually take care of all other institutions that are probably under State House. In this case, there is the Kabelenga State Lodge in Ndola, Kitwe Guest House and State Lodge.

Interruptions

Mr Taima: Madam Chairperson, these provisions we are making actually take care of house keeping even in respect of the other sub-institutions which we have mentioned. The major component under house keeping which has led to the 50 per cent increase in the allocation is the fact that we are planning to purchase new linen at State House and all the other institutions that fall under State House this year.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Vote 01/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 02 – (Office of the Vice-President – K20,788,677,995).

The Vice-President: Madam Chairperson, I rise to present the Estimates of Expenditure for the Office of the Vice-President for this year, 2007. In doing so, I want to thank the mover of the Motion, Hon. Ng’andu Magande, MP, Minister of Finance and National Planning for coming up with this all embracing Budget.

Madam Chairperson, it must be stated from the outset that these Budget Estimates are being presented against the background of the ongoing floods that have devastated a number of areas around the country. I, therefore, hope that hon. Members will take this into account as we discuss the budget I will be presenting shortly.

Madam Chairperson, hon. Members are reminded, once again, that my office derives its legal status from Article 45 of the Constitution of the Republic of Zambia. By this statute, the Vice-President is the principal assistant to the President in the discharge of executive functions. He is responsible for advising the President with respect to the policy of Government and with respect to any other matters as may be assigned to him by the President. The Vice-President acts as President when the incumbent is away and is a Leader of Government Business in Parliament.

Madam Chairperson, arising from this mandate, the portfolio functions of the Office of the Vice-President include:

i) Leader of Government Business in the House, facilitated by the parliamentary business for the Office of the Vice-President;

ii) Human resource and administration;

iii) In charge of resettlement department;

iv) In charge of Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit; and

v) In charge of investure ceremonies honours and awards.

Madam Chairperson, by virtue of its position as the second highest office, the Office of the Vice-President also performs important cross-cutting functions on issues referred to it by line ministries and other institutions. Among them are matters such as social welfare, poverty alleviation and HIV/AIDS, chiefs’ affairs and traditional ceremonies, religious affairs and labour and public relations, to mention but a few.

Madam Chairperson, in carrying out these portfolio functions, the Office of the Vice-President is guided by a strategic mission statement. Hon. Members may wish to know that my office, on the 13th February, 2007, launched the revised strategic plan which will give guidance to the operations of the office for the period 2006 to 2010. In revising the strategic plan, the office also revised the mission statement which now reads:

‘To facilitate effective conduct of Government business in Parliament, to manage disasters and resettlement programmes in order to enhance good governance and empowerment of vulnerable households.’

The revised mission statement provides for a new vision for the success of the office.

Madam Chairperson, with respect to the performance of the office of the Vice-President during the last year, I wish to report that during the 2006 financial year, my office was allocated a sum of K13, 593,000,000. This amount proved inadequate for the challenges that my office faced and also in the Tripartite Elections that were held. The food and water crisis further adversely affected the operations.

Madam Chairperson, for instance, under the Department of Resettlement, the office has been overwhelmed by the demand for land by the retired, retrenched and unemployed persons who are wiling to go back to the land. Even former street children who graduated from Zambia National Service Camps need land on which to settle, but the low levels of funding have continued to constrain the provision of basic infrastructure planned for in a number of resettlement schemes. As a result of this, the department could not provide the necessary infrastructure to make the schemes habitable and attract these youths, retirees and unemployed persons.

Madam, the Department of Resettlement also faces a number of other challenges in implementing the land resettlement programme. Prominent among them are land disputes in some resettlement schemes established on land formerly occupied by the Zambian National Service as rural reconstruction centres and which was acquired from traditional rulers. There are land disputes in some of these resettlement schemes as a result of chiefs reclaiming their land which the State had taken from them. The land disputes have, in some places, affected the pace of resettlement and delayed development in some schemes.

Hon. Members of Parliament, traditional rulers and my office, as the primary stakeholders, need to resolve this issue in order to have harmony in resettlement schemes and accelerate the pace of implementing the resettlement programme. This budget has, therefore, provided for a budget line under which my office aims to hold stakeholder sensitisation meetings in all the provinces, starting with you, hon. Members, some time in March this year.

Madam Chairperson, the other function for which my office is responsible is the Parliamentary Business Division which assists me to coordinate the performance of Parliamentary assignments by ministries provinces and statutory bodies and all the business that the Government brings to this august House. In particular, the division coordinates the processing of Government Bills, responses to Parliamentary questions, various information memoranda required by this House to enable hon. Members make informed decisions on matters of national importance, responses to Motions, Ministerial statements and so on.

Madam Chairperson, against the background of the on going Parliamentary Reforms, the division has to play the critical role of ensuring compliance of the Executive and sensitising officials in the ministries to embrace these reforms in order to provide timely information for decision making here. This division carries out a critical governance role for whose estimates I seek the support of this august House.

Madam Chairperson, with regard to the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit, in the past year, the unit under took a number of measures. It successfully implemented the 2005 and 2006 relief food programme which saw a total of 1.4 million people benefiting from the distribution of 124,868 X 50 KG bag of maize. The unit also took care of the plight of the people of Kazungula District, who were displaced as a result of the outburst of the Ngwezi and Kasaya rivers, and their subsequent repatriation to their usual places of residence.

Madam Chairperson, both the National Disaster Management Policy and Operational Manual are in place. The department will, this year, concentrate on putting in place district vulnerability profiles through a comprehensive and consultative process which is already under way. These profiles will be the entry point for mainstreaming disaster risk reduction into development programming. These effectively signify the shift from a reactive to a pro-active approach to disaster management.

The Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

The Vice-President: Madam Chairperson, the profile will further act as a base line information on vulnerabilities and will guide the designing and implementation of future mitigation, prevention and preparedness interventions.

The department further intends to spend time and resources in the area of expansion of communication systems. As you know, effective communication is a necessary tool for the efficient and effective management of disasters.

All hon. Members of this House have been informed of their pivotal and important role in the management of these disasters at the district and constituency levels. I hope that as a result of your involvement and as a result of the cooperation between hon. Members of Parliament and the district disaster management committees we will see a difference in terms of provision of this assistance.

Madam Chairperson, this year, our estimate under the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit is K6.3 billion, which I hope hon. Member will support.

Madam Chairperson, allow me to make a few general remarks about this Years’ Budget before the House now.

The flood situation that has devastated some parts of the country will require my office to spend slightly more then what is in the 2007 Budget. I am sure you will all agree with that. 
Whereas the disasters in the past years have affected only certain areas, we can safely say that, this time around, every part of the country and every constituency which we represent has been affected in one way or another.

In joining hon. Colleagues who have risen to support and congratulate the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning for this Budget, I also wish to add my voice in congratulating Hon. Magande for coming up with this Budget.

Madam Chairperson, in this year’s disasters, not only will we be required to assist as the rains are continuing to devastate our country, but we will continue to look at the effects, repair the bridges and roads and do everything possible so that the people living all over this country, particularly in the rural areas can return to normal life.

Madam Chairperson, in conclusion, I wish to say that the Estimates I lay before the House are straight forward and aimed at meeting Government operations. I hope the hon. Members will not find any difficulties in supporting this year’s budget.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishimba (Kasama): Madam Chairperson, thank you for the opportunity you have given me to contribute to the policy debate on the Office of the Vice-President.

Madam Chairperson, I began by sensitising myself on the importance of the Office of the Vice-President. According to the Constitution of Zambia, the Office of the Vice-President is created under Article 45 which means that it is, indeed, a very important office whose role in national governance or delivery of services to our people cannot be underestimated.

Madam Chairperson, I am also aware that the same Article 45 (4) asserts:

‘In addition to the powers and functions of the Vice-President specified in this Constitution or under any law, the Vice-President shall perform such functions as shall be assigned to him by the President.’

Indeed, the functions which are specified are very important if you look at the departmentalised structure which is there. The Resettlement Department is very important. The Parliamentary Business Department is also very important. The Disaster Management and Mitigation Department is equally important. Therefore, it is a very important office.

In supporting the Vote, I must state categorically right from the onset that, in my view, looking at the significance of this particular office, the allocation is actually inadequate. 
Madam Chairperson, before I look at the individual departments in detail, let me also begin by commending the Office of the Vice-President for including HIV/AIDS awareness programmes to protect the labour force. I am looking at the head office level which, of course, I believe goes down to other lower echelons in the structure of the Office of the Vice-President. However, I must say that the allocation to HIV/AIDS related activities, for example, Worlds Aids Day as well as awareness, is actually inadequate. We must begin to move at a ferocious speed to ensure that we protect the labour force and human resource. This is because without human resources, we are not going to deliver effectively, looking at the loss in terms of productive hours when employees or their relatives are sick. If employees are not infected, they might be affected, one way or the other, by attending to the sickness of their friends and relatives. 
Therefore, I must emphasise that there is need to scale up the internal HIV/AIDS programmes in the Office of the Vice-President. Of course, this beginning, in itself, or continuation is very important and actually commendable.

With regard to the Resettlement Department, we cannot, after forty-three years of independence, continue to witness what we are seeing in our country, today, where people are made refugees in their own country. Some of the measures that the Government has resorted to include, for instance, people settling in areas which are classified as squatter areas and which they move in to demolish. That, in it itself, is not a solution. We need, in this particular case, to begin addressing the problem from the planning stage to ensure that we have such programmes as resettlement schemes.

Madam Chairperson, on this one, I must state very clearly, again, that, when you look at the allocations in the budget, I have difficulties appreciating a scenario where more resources are allocated to administration while very little goes to programmes. Of course, I know that whilst the principle adopted is that of activity based budgeting in which administration plays a very important role, you cannot have a scenario where more money is allocated to administration under the resettlement scheme, than what you actually allocate to projects.

I must emphasise that there is need to try and move away from the culture of allocating more resources in the upper structure so that we look at the needy areas to ensure that resettlement schemes are implemented as proposed. In fact, this is an emergency. There is need to ensure that most of our people, be it retirees, are well settled. So, this calls for a bigger allocation to ensure that we plan adequately to prevent the problem from recurring from time to time.

Madam, the Parliamentary Business Department, again, is equally important. However, let me also state that this office should continue to ensure that the Office of the Vice-President is well informed, for instance, of what is going on here with regard to the functions and that the money allocated is really used for what it is intended. This office must be well informed, especially when it comes to responses to disasters or emergencies. There is need to ensure that there is quick information flow so that quick action is taken to care for the affected individuals. I believe this also results in improved responses to some of the questions that we ask to avoid a situation where a question is asked, for instance, in this House, and we start by going to Mtenguleni before answering it.

Laughter

Dr Chishimba: We must be direct and answer questions as they come.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishimba: Madam Chairperson, the Disaster Management and Mitigation Department is very important. If you look at what has been allocated, it is inadequate, especially considering some of the natural calamities that we are experiencing in our country. Right now, the problem of flooding is actually dominating the media and making headlines everywhere in the local and international media. I think that this particular department needs to be allocated more resources in order to ensure that, other than responding to emergency situations, some programmes are put in place to prevent some of the emergencies that we are able to prevent like the flooding of residential areas we are talking about. This has probably something to do with the poor planning of drainage systems in the areas our people are settled.

I have also noted that since this is a Disaster Management and Mitigation Department and the Government has claimed that HIV/AIDS has been declared a national disaster, we expect to see increased resources in responding to some of the emergencies caused by the HIV/AIDS pandemic.

Madam Chairperson, it is not disputable that most of the households, today, are either child or grandparent headed. This situation in which children are caring for their siblings is child abuse in itself. It is not something which you would say is self-inflicted on the children. It is because of the effects of HIV/AIDS when parents are lost to HIV/AIDS. These are situations which each and every person, I believe, appreciates. If this is appreciated, we expect to have an emergency style response to ensure that in the relief food distribution programmes, deliberate targeting is employed. When I talk about deliberate targeting, I mean we identify the target group by looking at the affected households so that there is more relief food given to child headed and grandparent headed households. We have seen some grandparents older than seventy years caring for so many children. We must appreciate that those grandparents are actually playing a very important role to try and reduce the pressure on the Government. The death of those grandparents because of pressure on them means that those children will go on the streets. If we are truly serious and committed to addressing the problem of streetism in our country, it must start now by ensuring that we support the affected households.

In addition to that, there is also need to look at those people living with HIV/AIDS who are on Anti Retroviral Therapy so that they also access nutrition under the same disaster management programme since HIV/AIDS has been declared a national disaster. Therefore, there is need to increase the allocation.

Madam Chairperson, let me conclude by stating that whilst the Government and, of course, in this particular instance, the Office of the Vice-President, has made mention of mainstreaming HIV/AIDS internally, there is need to have a mainstreamed response by making sure that HIV/AIDS within the Office of the Vice-President, which is quite well spread with committees at district level, is well supported and that programmes are aimed at not only sensitising the internal labour force, but also the communities that the office is dealing with. Here, I am talking about the target beneficiaries. That is extremely important. We need to have this integrated approach where HIV/AIDS in the Office of the Vice-President is mainstreamed from both the impact mitigation perspective and the prevention perspective so that we can try to avoid some of the emergencies like children going on the streets when their parents die. What kind of leaders do we expect to lead this country, in future, if we allow this to continue and if the Office of the Vice-President does not effectively mainstream HIV/AIDS by looking at not only the internal domain, but the external domain as well? Since they are well-spread, they should use that comparative advantage to include HIV/AIDS programmes in a more practical way. That will go a long way.

In conclusion, I must state that I support the allocation in totality, but, of course, I will probably, if possible, seek an alteration to have more money allocated to programmes, that is actual activities, and not necessarily administration.. I would also like to see that more money is allocated to the office because of the important role that the office plays.

I thank you, Madam.{mospagebreak}

Mr Hachipuka (Mbabala): Madam Chairperson, I would like to support the budget estimates for the Office of the Vice-President. I have absolutely no quarrel with certain parts of it, except I would like to highlight, specifically, that I am not happy with the amount allocated to resettlement.

Madam Chairperson, last year, I had the privilege of visiting some of the Government resettlement schemes. One of the problems I noticed was the inadequacy of boreholes. The water points are inadequate and I am uncomfortable that in this budget, we have not provided for that.

Madam Chairperson, I am also concerned that of the K6.9 billion under Disaster Management, only K300,000, has been provided for the procurement of relief food. To be specific, there is only K24 million in there. We all know that this country has gone through a number of disasters and that the rainfall pattern this year has actually resulted in the displacement of some of our citizens from various places. However, I am happy that His Honour the Vice-President indicated in his remarks that he hopes that he will be allowed to spend more money than what has been indicated in the budget.

Madam Chairperson, there is one point I want to raise which, as a senior debater, I should raise because it may escape the eyes of some people. If you look at the figure of K6.9 billion under Disaster Management, most of it is going towards expenditure to set up systems within your office, your Honour the Vice-President. Very little money will trickle down to benefit the Zambian at the grassroots level. Now, you may not be able to answer this, but hopefully the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning will come back and explain this to me. The Disaster Management and Mitigation Department in your office has been in existence for a very long time and we know disasters keep on recurring. However, is it fair to spend K6 billion in your office on your office staff with nothing going to the affected people because we are talking about disasters? K6.3 billion will go towards reorganising your office, putting computers, training people and doing all sorts of things within your office, but the common man on the street will get nothing. It is not provided for.

Madam Chairperson, the maize you will be giving and money you will be spending to build bridges is not in your budget. I feel that K6 billion is a lot of money to spend just on reorganising and setting up a system that might never be used against a K300,000. I think that this is bad planning, particularly that your office has been in existence for some time. I can quote specific lines in here. I invite my colleagues, particularly the back bench to look at each item. If you add all the items there, they are going to produce a super structure in the Office of the Vice-President which is purported, when you create it, to be delivering what? There is no provision for buying maize to deliver to the poor. There is no provision to buy roofing sheets for when a school’s roof is blown away. There is no provision in here under Disaster Management to buy some deliverables for the affected areas. When there is a disaster, you would expect the expenditure on that disaster to be higher than the cost of going there.

Madam Chairperson, there is more money here to go there than to go and do the job. That is bad planning. Please, can you look at these figures because they send a wrong message that you are going to spend K6 billion in your office for officers to be trained, run around and put computers and set systems to deal with disasters. Everywhere in the world, including the United States of America and Saudi Arabia, they have a bigger Vote for deliverables than for buying jackets, ties and raincoats for people who are going to do the job. No, I object seriously to this. I think all of us should look at this because it sends a wrong message.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze): Madam Chairperson, I rise to support the very inadequate provisions under the Vice-President’s Office. These provisions are totally inadequate, Madam Chairperson, taking into account the calamities that have befallen us this year. I have noted a number of our colleagues have been talking about flooding in their areas. We should not forget that there are certain areas of this country that have been afflicted with drought. Southern Province, Western Province and certain parts of Eastern Province have been afflicted with drought. It, therefore, follows that the Government and ourselves should double our efforts in order to mitigate the effects of the drought and flooding that has occurred in this country.

Madam Chairperson, I have noted that there is a provision of K6.5 billion for Disaster Management. This provision is totally inadequate. It is my considered view that we should not wait for this House to pass a supplementary budget. We still have enough time and room to manoeuvre within the existing provisions which we have provided. We have to increase the budgetary allocation to Disaster Management. I am also aware that three years ago, a number of bridges in many constituencies were washed away. We were assured by the Government that it was going to provide funds in order to repair the bridges in those areas.

Hon. Opposition Member: US$0 million.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, US$50 million was assured to us in this House. To-date, nothing has happened. Those bridges remain unrepaired and I can assure you that because of those bridges that were not repaired, even providing relief food this year will be very difficult. As a result of not having access to these areas, we are resorting to using helicopters to transport food. You know, and it is not a secret, that the type of helicopter transport we have in this country is not suitable for transporting relief food in some areas. In addition, they are totally inadequate. The only solution is to ensure that we increase the provisions under disaster management so that they can provide funding to repair bridges and rehabilitate roads to those areas where there has been flooding and drought.

Hon. Opposition member: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, I do note that the Government has been providing relief food to affected persons. Alas, the provisions that are being afforded to our people are totally inadequate. You have to note that Zambians, especially Lozis who eat nshima four times a day, …

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: … cannot survive on a tin of mealie-meal per week for ten members of a family. We need to increase the allocations if we have to save the people. We should not appease our people. If we provide relief food to our people, let us ensure that we provide adequate food stuffs. I know even as you provide food to the areas that have been affected by flooding, you are only providing mealie-meal. Where do you expect the poor people in the villages to get the supplements? Where do you expect them to get relish if all their fields have been flooded? We are not providing any relief to them. My plea to the Office of the Vice-President is that they  should lobby all of us to look at the provisions within the budget and make viaments and increase the Vote for Disaster Management. We all know that if we do not do that, we will still come back to this House with a supplementary budget. Why should we wait for that time? Why can we not make viaments? We can suspend certain projects that are not very urgent so that our people are supported and sustained. As His Honour the Vice-President indicated, I do not think there is any constituency in this country that has not been affected. All the constituencies have been affected by this disaster that has afflicted us.

Madam Chairperson, I would also like to appeal to His Honour the Vice-President to advise officers as a district level who are being supervised by the District Commissioners (DC). Issues of disaster should not be politicised. The DCs are civil servants. They are not politicians, therefore, they should not begin to be playg politics. They are there to serve the interests of everyone. It is not uncommon, His Honour the Vice-President to find certain DCs playing politics over the lives of our people. It is not fair and should not be allowed. I call upon your office, Mr Vice-President, to streamline the operations. The distribution of relief food should be transparent. Whether we belong to different political parties or not, we all look towards the Government to serve us. The Government is there to serve everyone irrespective of political affiliation.

With those few remarks and my recommendations that the Vote for Disaster Management should be increased, I support the Motion, Madam Chairperson.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Kanyanyamina (Kanchibiya): Thank you, Madam Chairperson, for according me this opportunity to represent the people of Zambia and Kanchibiya Constituency in particular. I think the Office of the Vice-President is very important. To begin with, I would like to appreciate the current Vice-President because he is the right man for the job.

When you are dealing with calamities, you do not need a Pharaoh to head the department like we see some of the hon. Ministers in this House who cannot even smile.

Laughter

Mr Kanyanyamina: We need to have a very embracing father.
Laughter

Mr Kanyanyamina: I hope I am not betraying His Honour the Vice-President because he is my mbuya.

Laughter

Mr Kanyanyamina: In my language we say, ushi sendele umunankwe umutembo, nowakwe upokwa, meaning that, he who does not help to carry someone’s load, even his load will be taken away.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kanyanyamina: I think His Honour the Vice-President has set a very good precedence. Whether you have offended him or not, he always finds a way to bring you across because offending someone is part of disaster.

Laughter

Mr Kanyanyamina: We have seen our people at the grass root level suffering, especially those in the rural area where we do not have a lot of NGOs operating. Last week, all the Executive members of this House were sent to their respective constituencies at Government expense whereas the back benchers like me had to foot their own bill. I had to do this because I am concerned about my people and if I do not see the way they are suffering, then, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes.

Mr Kanyanyamina: … I will be condemned tomorrow. I like the debate of the previous speaker who said we always need to go to our constituencies and be with our people. To begin with, I know that this is a sensitive issue, but I am going to air it in the House. Some of the disasters that we are experiencing today, which are draining a lot of Government resources are already foreseen by our people. We need to go out there as area hon. Members of Parliament to sensitise our people. It makes no sense to live and cultivate maize in a place where there are elephants because the maize will attract the elephants which will eat it. The Government will then have to spend a lot of money which is meant for development in such areas.

Madam, it makes no sense for a farmer to settle in a mountainous area because they cannot produce anything there. That land is not productive agriculture wise. Perhaps, we need to send the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit to such areas to educate our people. They also have to go to universities and sensitise them to explore places where there are minerals. Perhaps, this can create employment for the people living in such areas.

As I said, a disaster is a calamity which can befall anybody, but some are avoidable. The K6 billion allocated to the Vice-President’s Office is peanuts especially if you look at management and the kind of facilities that they use. What is the share of the local man at the grassroots level whom God sent us to serve? I always speak for the people who voted us into Parliament and made us gain weight. These people cannot even afford a pair of shoes, but we are supposed to represent and each time they are in problems, we are supposed to help.

Laughter

Mr Kanyanyamina: We must be true servants of the people. The Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit must work 24 hours a day to ensure that they put preventive measures. You cannot allow a situation where someone builds a house in an area where you know there are hyenas. We cannot spoon feed people like that. I would like to ask His Honour the Vice-President to ensure that more preventive measures are put in place in this office. In addition, let the man t at the grassroots level benefit. In that way, we will be seen to be good servants of God, serving his people. This will help our people.

I would like to thank His Honour the Vice-President and his hardworking team at the Disaster Management and Mitigation Department. I suggest that we increase the budget for this department because they are struggling. It does not help much for food to be sent to the districts and, thereafter, scrounge for money in order to transport the food to the beneficiaries. It is very painful to see people die of hunger in the villages when food is marooned at the district because there is no money. This is a mockery.

That is the area where we are very weak as a Government. Perhaps, we should put money in place 24 hours a day so that when there is a disaster, the District Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit is able to move immediately to assess the situation and, at the same time, communicate to the relevant authorities. We need to continue to work closely with NGOs and the business community that come to our aid. For example, the National Milling company is leading by example and has donated bags of mealie meal. Here we get the maize, but there is no money to help the people to grind it into mealie meal. When we talk of a calamity, we are talking of people who are desperate for survival and have lost everything, including the simplest needle to sew a pair of trousers or dress.

Laughter

Interruptions

Mr Kanyanyamina: These are the people we should address. If we are to address these people, we need to put measures in place before disasters occur.

Sir, I would like to urge His Honour the Vice-President to help hon. Members of Parliament of this House, regardless of their political affiliation, rush to their constituencies where there are disasters by sponsoring their trips because they are overstretched. The only ones who are not overstretched are the members of the Executive who get relief through the Government operations in their departments.

With these few remarks, I thank you, Madam.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikazwe (Chimbamilonga): Madam Chairperson, I stand to debate and support the budget for the Office of the Vice-President.

Madam Chairperson, His Honour the Vice-President mentioned in his speech that he is concerned and worried about the construction of roads and repair of bridges. This has been his main interest, but, at times, he is affected by the tender procedures. Contractors have disappointed the Office of the Vice-President, hence, his response to disaster management issues.

Madam, to this effect, I propose that the Office of the Vice-President should liaise with the Ministry of Defence so that they make use of the Engineering Squadron in the military defence. They should come in and repair some small bridges which can be done easily. The disrepair of the bridges is affecting people who need medical facilities because they are stranded. The people will appreciate the work of the Engineering Squadron. The Engineering Squadron did this kind of work in Mufurila five years ago. The bridge between Mufurila/Kansuswa and another part of Mufulira needed repairs and the Engineering Squadron repaired it. Why can this not be extended to the rural areas so that the usefulness of the Office of the Vice-President and the care of His Honour the Vice-President are felt?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikazwe: Madam Chairperson, I am a novice in debating the Budget and on Programme 9, I may not understand the real meaning of ‘Establishment of Logistic System – K200 million.’ I may think that it refers to the procurement of trucks which can move things. I submit that it means that. There must be an increment of more than a billion because we need a lot of vehicles as opposed to hiring.

Madam, this morning, it was on the news that the people in Chimbamilonga Constituency are eating rotten cassava. His Honour the Vice-President has not been fully communicated to this. I submit, again, that there must be a good information network between the Office of the Vice-President and the districts because by now, I could have fed His Honour the Vice-President with the real information on the ground.

Mr Kambwili: Ni nchito yobe!

Mr Sikazwe: I plead with the Office of the Vice President to set aside from that K6 billion funds for a rural communications system so that they get the first hand information and not get it through the media all the time.

Madam, the other issue is the deferment of issues which is called procrastination. We are deferring issues intended for the affected people. As a Government, it is prudent that you act positively there and then, like you did for the people of Mpika where you did not follow the political affiliation of the Parliamentarians in the distribution of food.

Madam Chairperson, with regard to Programme 12, Activity 3, – Transportation and Distribution of Relief Supplies – K60 million, I do not know whether this is for travelling from here to Kaputa where a truck and trailer costs K60 million. The hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives can tell us how much they spend for a truck to ferry a load. If this K60 million is for the transportation of relief food throughout the country, then it is too little. Your office must be funded in full. In this way, you will fulfill your noble call.

I thank you, Madam.

Dr Njobvu (Milanzi): Madam Chairperson, I thank you for allowing me to contribute to the debate on the estimates for the Office of the Vice-President.

Madam Chairperson, I am very surprised that the budget was prepared the way it is shown here. The Disaster Management and Mitigation Department is very important. Therefore, we should also be serious in this House. I would like to draw the attention of the House to specific budget lines.

First of all, K79 million was budgeted for the preparation of the budget estimates, but K24 million has been budgeted for relief food. This is not enough. I also draw your attention to the budget line for Stakeholder Orientation Seminars which is K224 million as well as Workshops and Seminars which was budgeted for K134 million. I also bring to your attention Transportation and Distribution of Relief Supplies which is K60 million. I also bring your attention to page 9, where Staff Training has been allocated K309 million. I have compared that with relief food supplies which is K24 million. I think this House must be serious as we discuss disaster management. I am sure His Honour the Vice-President would like to do a good job in this area.

I have just returned from Eastern Province where I saw how bad the maize is this year and I think that it is the same everywhere in the country. We cannot allocate K24 million to relief food and K224 million to seminars and workshops. I think we are not serious. I propose that these figures be changed so that relief food is given adequate funds for this year so that we can support our people properly. It is not only relief food, but bridges, roads and culverts have been destroyed due to the heavy rainfall this year. We want to be serious and I would like to propose that those lines I have indicated in this Yellow Book should be changed. I submit that we should reduce the allocations to seminars, staff training and stakeholder workshops and increase the allocation to the provision of relief food.

Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Sikota (Livingstone): I thank you, Madam Chairperson. I will try to make my contribution as brief and as direct as possible.

Madam Chairperson, I join the others who stated that the allocation to relief food should be increased. This is because we are dealing with the lives and well being of the Zambian people. There is no doubt that we are going to have a large food deficit this year. From the very beginning of this year, we have had floods throughout the country, hence, it is clear that the crop we are going to have this year is not going to be enough.

Making the situation worse, Madam Chairperson, is the fact that the World Food Programme (WFP), which traditionally bore the brunt of providing food relief, announced earlier this week that they were cutting down on their support to Zambia. With that in mind, I implore the Government to take into consideration the fact that there will be a very big gap as a result of the World Food Programme pulling out. Therefore, the Government should increase the provisions for food relief. I had promised that I would be brief and to the point and that is the point I wished to deliver.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Munaile (Malole): Madam Chairperson, I also want to add my voice to those who have bemoaned the insufficient funds allocated to the Disaster Management and Mitigation Department.

As an hon. Member from a rural constituency and with the rains that we have had this year, I think we are going to have more problems. The people in some parts of Malole Constituency are using canoes to move from one village to the other. When I look at the budget for the Office of the Vice-President, I think the money is not enough. The best we can do is try and reduce the money provided to some Votes and take it to the Disaster Management and Mitigation Department because some issues are not as urgent as the disasters we are experiencing right now.
Hon. Hachipuka talked about the K6 billion for the Office of the Vice-President. I also say that that is too much. That money should be reduced so that we can meet the needs of our people. Instead of talking about computers and the rest, our people need food. My submission is, therefore, that the money to the Disaster Management and Mitigation Department should be increased.

I thank you, Sir.

The Vice-President: I thank you, Madam Chairperson, for allowing me, once again, to speak and respond to some of the sentiments expressed by the hon. Members this afternoon concerning the budget for the Office of the Vice-President.

Madam Chairperson, I notice that the majority of hon. Members are in support of the efforts that we are making and feel sympathetic to our financial needs and have made pertinent comments and suggestions on how these funds should be allocated so that the best impact on the people of Zambia, who are facing a lot of disasters and difficulties, could be made.

I would like to make specific reference to the resettlement programme. A lot of people that have lost their jobs or have retired and the young people that have no work now desire to go back to the land. This programme of resettlement by the Zambian Government is being supported by this House and I thank the majority of hon. Members that have spoken for their support. I also take note of some of the criticisms that have been made regarding moneys being spent on administration as against programmes such as disasters and the provision of relief food. The Government takes note of that and will definitely discuss how to realign these funds. I noticed that the majority of our Members of Parliament have spoken this afternoon. I would like to remind hon. Dr. Chishimba, Member of Parliament for Kasama Central, that the Ngonis will never forgive him for not attending the N’cwala Traditional Ceremony at Mtenguleni. Next year, we want to see you there. If not, we will tell our cousins in Kasama not to vote for you.

Laughter

The Vice-President: I hope that, next year, if I will be privileged to go again in the delegation to Mtenguleni, you will be there to dance with your cousins. Thank you for the advice.

Laughter

The Vice-President: Madam Chairperson, I will have to ask that the hon. Member for Kalomo be moved from where he is sitting because he is always an encumbrance.

Laughter

The Vice-President: I wish to thank Hon. Hachipuka for the comments that he has made regarding the resettlement schemes and the problem of water points in these schemes. It is true that to move people into a resettlement scheme without adequate water supply is tantamount to rejecting them by taking them to unknown places. We will definitely take that into account and I hope that you will support our requests for the resettlement schemes. We will make sure that both the Government and other stakeholders assist in providing the water points that you suggest.

I also take note of your pertinent comments regarding the K6.9 billion. The problem with Hon. Hachipuka is that since he is an accountant, he went through the whole Budget picking little things and adding them up to K6.9 billion. However, I have to agree with you that we have to make sure that more money is spent on the people themselves by providing them with relief such as food, roofing sheets, mosquito nets, clothing, medication and many other items rather than on administrative costs.

Hon. Jack Mwiimbu, Member of Parliament for Monze Central, articulately pointed out the shortcomings of this programme, particularly the disaster management programme. The calamities that the people of Zambia find themselves in need our attention. Therefore, I thank him for his comments with regard to the funding being inadequate. I hope that he will assist us pass this particular fund request in the budget. We will continue to negotiate and inform the Zambian Government as well as the Government business community to assist us in the provision of disaster relief. I remember he said K6.5 billion was definitely inadequate and hope you will support this.

Hon. Mwiimbu, I also take note of the US $50 million that was promised to the hon. Members of this House for the repair of bridges and roads. I will discuss this matter with my colleagues and find out whether it is possible to obtain the US $50 million. Certainly, it is necessary that infrastructure that has broken down across the country, particularly in rural constituencies, should be repaired. The roads and bridges should be repaired.

I also take note of the comments raised by several hon. Members of Parliament regarding the provision of relief food. It was said that we provide mealie-meal and maize, but do not provide relish for the poor. I think that is a very logical and fair comment to make and we will look into that as well.

Madam Chairperson, the most important point that most hon. Members of Parliament touched this afternoon, with regard to the Office of the Vice-President, apart from the shortage of funds, is that the provision of relief should not be politicised. We have already taken steps towards this, and I think all hon. Members, here, will bear me out, and written to District Commissioners, who are the Chairpersons of the District Disaster Funds, and to all hon. Members of Parliament to say that we would like to see an improvement in the relationship between Members of Parliament and the District Commissioners.

Members of Parliament are very important in the organisation of relief materials and it is important that they participate in meetings and make their influence felt to ensure that all our people benefit from the materials. I am sure we have repeated this so many times, but because it is important, it has to be repeated. We want no politics in the distribution of relief materials. This relief comes from the national budget for all the people of Zambia regardless of their political affiliation.

We would like to make sure that next time we meet here, hon. Members of Parliament confirm that there is an improvement in the manner in which the relief food has been handled in both districts and provinces.

Hon. Kanyanyamina, Member of Parliament for Kanchibiya, thank you for your compliments and the advice that you have given regarding the calamities that our people face as a result of the floods.

Hon. Chisanga reminded us about the destruction of the roads, bridges, school infrastructure and health facilities and that even if we were willing to attend to them quickly, there were bottlenecks in the tender procedures. We take note of your comments and we will ensure that work does proceed as quickly as possible within the regulations of the country.

I take note of one other point that only Hon. Chisanga mentioned regarding rural communication facilities. This is very important and, as we said earlier, we have put a provision in the budget for the improvement of communications in disaster management. However, as a Government, we can boast that we are encouraging the private sector to improve on rural communications as much as possible and will continue to do so. In fact, there is a great improvement already.

Finally, in reference to the hon. Members of Parliament who have commented this afternoon, I would like to refer to Hon. Dr Njobvu, MP, who commented on the various items in the budget relating to food relief not being adequate and the orientation seminars. We felt that it was necessary to increase orientation seminars so that we could help our people in all the provinces understand their allocations with regard to the provision of disaster relief. We also want to advise them that at certain times, they should move from areas where floods are likely to occur to drier areas.
The transportation costs of moving relief from one place to the other are, indeed, very high. Just to give you an example, we had to move mealie-meal and maize to Feira Boma. We only had a small aeroplane that could move only one tonne per day and we needed to move 50 tonnes. For fifty days, we were struggling with this small helicopter to try and get food to that area and that is very expensive. I hope we can find ways and means, one of them being the reconstruction of the bridges and roads, so that we can use trucks to get to such areas.

In conclusion, I also wish to thank Hon. Sakwiba Sikota for the support he has given to the budget. Most hon. Members of Parliament who have spoken would like to see more funds allocated for the disasters and more food distributed to our people who are affected in various flood hit areas. They would like to see drugs for the people being distributed in the rural areas as well as drugs for our animals like cattle in districts and provinces. They would also like to see more support for our people.

In view of what I have said and what they have said in this august, I hope that all hon. Members will support us this afternoon.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 02/01 – (Office of the Vice-President – Human Resource and Administration – K10,159,411,040).

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1, Activity 05 – Other Emoluments – K75,971,112.

Madam Chairperson, I have observed that in 2006, there was only a provision of K2,865,295 and there were no supplementary estimates which shows that this money was enough. However, in this year, 2007, the figure has jumped to K75,971,112. I would like to find out why because I feel that probably this money would be …

The Chairperson: You are debating! Just ask your point of clarification.

Mr Kambwili: I would like to find out why it has increased from K2 million to K75 million when K2 million was enough in the year 2006. What has happened?

The Deputy Minister in the Vice-President’s Office (Mrs Lundwe): Madam Chairperson, when you look at Salaries in Division (I) it has reduced because in Activity 05 there is Other Emoluments which means that other people like Permanent Secretaries have moved to other salary scales, super scales. That is why Other Emoluments have got to this amount.

I thank you.

Vote 02/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 02/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 02/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 02/05 – (Office of the Vice-President – Disaster Management and Mitigation Department – K6,933,202,657).

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 01 – Personal Emoluments – K770,111,347 and Programme 02 – General Administration – K2,591,382,072. I would like to know why in both cases there was no budget allocation last year and, all of a sudden, this year, you find K770 million and K2.5 billion giving you an excess of K3 billion. Where was this if it was not budgeted for last year?

The Chairperson: Can you repeat the question for clarification.

Mr Muntanga: There has been general administration all along in the Disaster Management and Mitigation Department. There was not budget in the previous year.

The Chairperson: Programme 02

Mr Muntanga: Programmes 01 and 02

Madam Chairperson: Programmes 01 and 02 on page 7

Mr Muntanga: Where was the budget then?

Mrs Lundwe: Madam Chairperson, the provision is required in this section due to the fact that this is the amount that has been shifted from the Research and Planning Unit where it was last year to Operations and Logistics Unit this year.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 08, Activity 03 – Procurement of Relief Supply – K0.00. I wonder why there is no budgetary allocation this year.

Mrs Lundwe: Madam Chairperson, we have not budgeted for that this year because we cannot determine what type of disaster will occur and to what extent.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Muntanga: Madam Chairperson, the money that was shifted from the Research and Planning Unit was only K400 million last year. Now that it has been shifted to Programmes 1 and 2 it has come up to K3.2 billion. That is why we have got this huge increase.

Interruptions

The Vice-President: Madam Chairperson, this huge increase is intended to answer to the needs of our people. That is why we had to ask for an allocation of more funds.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Interruptions

Mr Muntanga: Madam Chairperson, this money is for salaries and not for our people as His Honour the Vice-President is saying. Have we increased to so many people that we can jump from K400 million to K3.2 billion. This must be clarified. One wonders what is going on there.

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Muntanga, could you, please, show us exactly where you are. Give us the page, programme and activity so that we can follow you clearly.

Mr Muntanga: Madam Chairperson, His Honour the Vice-President said that the money had increased because it was shifted from Programme 1 – Research and Planning Unit – K492,401,019 on page 9 to Programme 1 – Personal – Emoluments – K770,111,347 and Programme 2 – General Administration – K2,591,382,072…

Mr Tetamashimba: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.
Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Chairperson, I know that we go stage by stage when discussing the Budget. Is the experienced hon. Member on the Floor in order to take us backwards and forwards when the procedure of this House is that you discuss what is on that page and when you go to the next page, you cannot go backwards? Is he in order to do that?

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

The hon. Deputy Minister of Works and Supply is concerned that we seem to be going forward and backwards when discussing these figures. Let me guide the House that this is one department. We will not move to another department that we have already dealt with. We are within one department and the hon. Member of Parliament is looking at the figures that affect the same department. It is only that they have moved from a page that comes later to one that comes earlier. Therefore, there is need for that kind of clarification.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Magande): Madam Chairperson, like I said yesterday, in order to understand these figures, hon. Members must go through them very carefully. I want to refer Hon. Muntanga to page 7, Programme 11 – Activity 01 – Operations and Maintenance of Plant and Equipment and Activity 02 – Office Administration. Those two activities are now in Programme 2 – Activity 01 and 02 on the same page. If you look at Programme 11, there is no provision for this year that has moved up. The figure is less than last year’s.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Vote 02/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 03 – (National Assembly – K121,345,673,056).

The Chairperson: Hon. Members, according to parliamentary practice and procedure, the House does not debate itself. We, therefore, go straight into individual items.

Vote 03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 05 – (Electoral Commission – K32, 411,863,130).

The Vice-President: Madam Chairperson, I wish to thank you for the opportunity, once again, given to me to present the Electoral Commission of Zambia 2007 Budget.

The Electoral Commission of Zambia was established as an autonomous body under Article 76(1) of the Constitution of Zambia to conduct elections to the Office of the President and the National Assembly. The commission is also mandated to review the constituency boundaries in which Zambia is divided for the purpose of election to the National Assembly.

The commission is also mandated to review the constituency boundaries into which Zambia is divided for purposes of election to the National Assembly

In addition to the constitutional functions, the commission has the following statutory functions:

(a) to supervise a referendum under the Referendum Act, Cap. 14;

(b) to conduct and supervise Local Government Elections under the Local Government Elections Act, Cap. 282; and

(c) to perform any other statutory function that the National Assembly may call upon it.

The Electoral Commission Act No. 24 of 1996 provides for the composition and operations of the commission. The Electoral Act, No. 12 of 2006 empowers the Electoral Commission to enforce the Act, make regulations providing for the registration of voters, conduct of Presidential and Parliamentary elections and election offences and penalties.

Upon its establishment, the commission embarked on a programme to strategise and reposition itself in order to serve and meet the needs of the stakeholders in the electoral process.

The Electoral Commission of Zambia conducted the first Tripartite Elections in 2001 and the conduct of the 2006 Presidential, Parliamentary and Local Government Elections was testimony of the marked improvement in the commission’s efficiency and competence in conducting the elections activities.

Madam Chairperson, the Electoral Commission’s mission statement is:

‘To develop and maintain an effective and responsive electoral process in order to ensure the conduct of transparent, free and fair elections for the benefit of the people of Zambia’

The commission’s mission statement justifies the fundamental purpose for its existence and provides for a vision to strive towards and a framework within which the commission’s policies will be made and programmes and activities carried out to enrich and further strengthen the electoral process, thereby contributing to democratic governance in the country. It further gives the staff of the commission a clear sense of what their organisation is all about thereby increasing their commitment to achieving the commission’s goal and objectives.

The electoral commission’s goal: To manage an effective and responsive electoral process for the timely conduct of elections to democratically elect representatives, strategically projects the commission’s achievable target of its operations and is a contribution towards the achievement of the commission’s overall mission.

Madam Chairperson, in reviewing the commission’s performance from 2003 to 2006, the commission commenced its preparations for the 2006 elections in adequate time.

2005 Delimitation and Voter Registration Exercises

In 2005, the commission reviewed the constituency boundaries and undertook the delimitation of ward and polling districts. The number of wards was increased from 1,287 to 1,422 while that of polling districts was increased from 5,510 to 6456.

The commission carried out a sixty-two day voter registration exercise countrywide which commenced on 31st October, 2005, and closed on 31st December, 2005. A new voter registration and electoral information management system was acquired and the exercise was adequately funded by the Ministry of Finance and National Planning. The commission registered a remarkable 3,941,229 eligible voters, an increase of 51 per cent from the previous number of 2,624,761 registered in 2001.

2006 Presidential, National Assembly and Local Government Elections

The 2006 Presidential, National Assembly and Local Government Elections were conducted on 28th September, 2006. The elections were funded by the Treasury with additional support from the co-operating partners that was coordinated by the United Nations Development Programme(UNDP).

The expenditure on the elections amounted to K282,001,455,000.00 of which K254,001,455,000 was Government funding and K28,000,000,000 was donor support.

2007 Budget

Personal Emoluments

Madam Chairperson, the commission will need to pay salaries and other conditions of service to attract and retain qualified personnel in order to effectively manage and develop human resources for the efficient operations of the commission. The commission had embarked on a vigorous programme to enhance its elections management information system. This exercise included among, other things, investment in a wide area network to facilitate the elections results management. This expansion in information technology operations called for recruitment of new staff in this specialised area.

Madam Chairperson, furthermore, prior to the 2006 Tripartite Elections, the commission engaged casual staff, some of whom have been retained to help in the post-election mop up exercise.

General Administration

The commission will need to manage both human and material resources efficiently in order to derive maximum benefit from its asset base. The expanded fleet of vehicles has meant an upward movement in the cost of insurance and maintenance of vehicles. The commission will, however, capitalise on its own service bay to minimise the cost of maintaining the vehicles.

However, most of this Vote is a provision for the liquidation of 2001 election arrears which had remained unpaid over the years.

Financial Management System

The commission has now in place an enhanced financial management system. This budget line covers administrative activities to foster the effectiveness of the financial management system so as to contribute to better performance in accountability, internal control and financial decision making.

Recruitment

In order to enhance the capacity of the procurement and supplies unit, the commission will implement the Sun System Purchasing Module and the development of its internal procurement and stores procedures manuals.

Corporate Image Building

Madam Chairperson, the commission will, in addition to other civic awareness programmes, continue to inform the public about its roles and functions as well as endeavour to improve its public image to continuously build and sustain public confidence in the commission and electoral process as a whole.

Review of Electoral and Related General Legislation

The commission had at the beginning of the year 2006, embarked on a programme to review some of the electoral legislation based on the final recommendations of the Electoral Reform Technical Committee (ERTC). Some of the recommendations have since been incorporated in the new Electoral Act No. 12 of 2006 and the revised Electoral Code of Conduct.

Madam Chairperson, the commission has also provided for the cost of petitions following last year’s Tripartite Elections. A total of thirty-nine Parliamentary petitions were filed.

Enforcement of Electoral Legislation
As a result of the enhanced voter registration system, the commission has been able to commence prosecution against a number of individuals who registered more than once. This budget provision includes the activity that will cater for bringing the culprits to justice.

Continuous Voter Registration

Madam Chairperson, the commission intends to commence continuous voter registration in compliance with the law that was passed in 2001 and to meet stakeholder demands and expectations.

The full financial requirements for implementing the programme are beyond the scope of this budget due to the budgetary constraints. However, in order to set the ground work, there is a provision for the development of publicity and educational materials.

Enhancement of Information Management Systems
The advanced election information management information system which is in place will require continuous maintenance and software upgrading to keep pace with technological changes.

Delimitation of Political Boundaries

Madam Chairperson, this is a provision for the on-going exercise of updating constituency maps using the commission’s Geographical Information System (GIS).

Elections

The commission, as required by law, will need to continuously respond to the occurrence of parliamentary and local government vacancies arising from various reasons.

The resulting by-elections may also entail conflict resolution efforts by the commission through the district conflict management committees. The commission will also be involved in election observation in the Southern Africa Development Community (SADC) region and beyond to enhance their own understanding of the electoral process.

Training and External Liaison

Madam Chairperson, the process of capacity building was suspended in 2006 due to the intensity of activities during the year. On resumption of the programme, the commission will provide training in short courses in specialised areas to enhance staff skills.

District Audits

The commission is committed to superior performance in accountability and transparency. Having worked on developing capacity in the internal audit department, the commission intends to physically cover all the seventy-two districts to follow up on all the funds and materials distributed during the 2006 elections and any subsequent by-elections.

Voter Education

In compliance with the Electoral Act, the commission will continue to educate and inform the general public on the electoral process and commission activities such as continuous voter’s registration, the referendum and similar activities. This is intended to be achieved through the various programmes of the National Voter Education Committee and district committees.

Madam Chairperson, I seek the support of this House in approving the commission’s budget.

I thank you, Madam.
Mr Kambwili: Madam Chairperson, I thank you for affording me this opportunity to contribute in support of the budget for the Electoral Commission. However, I would like to make the following observations.

Madam Chairperson, Zambia will never move from unnecessary petitions unless certain things are amended in the Electoral Act. For instance, it is quite unfair to find that there are certain areas in Zambia which you cannot access by road. Usually, the ruling President has the advantage of using State resources like a helicopter in accessing certain areas during campaigns.

Hon. PF Members: Hammer!

Mr Kambwili: I would suggest that the Electoral Act be amended so that all presidential candidates running for general elections should be accorded an opportunity to use the defence forces helicopters to access areas which cannot be accessed by road.
Hon. Government Members: Aah! Which country?

Hon. PF Members: Hammer! Hammer!

Mr Kambwili: Madam Chairperson, this is the only way we are going to declare our elections free and fair.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: It is extremely unacceptable to declare an election free and fair when one candidate has access to Government resources to reach certain areas which his opponents cannot reach.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Madam Chairperson, under the Electoral Act, the declaration of the President must not be made until all pertinent issues are resolved.

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Kambwili: It is extremely difficult to fight an incumbent President once he has been declared. The President appoints the judges and it becomes a little bit suspicious for them to make a just and acceptable decision during a petition. So, we need to change our laws in that we should not rush to declare the winner of the presidential elections within twenty-four hours.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: All pertinent issues must be addressed before a presidential candidate is declared winner.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Hon. PF Members: Hammer, hammer, mdala!

Mr Kambwili: Madam Chairperson, in terms of parliamentary declarations, our Electoral Act is very weak. For instance, in the Malole Parliamentary seat, figures were swapped …

The Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Kambwili, you cannot debate any issues that are before the courts of law. We also do not debate ourselves.

You may continue, but without that part.

Mr Kambwili: Madam Chairperson, in cases where somebody has been declared winner based on wrong figures and immediately after he has been declared it is discovered that the figures which were given to the winner were actually for the losing candidate, I see no reason why the Act should provide that you should go to court so that the court declares the rightful winner. We should change our laws so that in cases like that, matters are resolved at the polling station and the right candidate is declared.

Madam Chairperson, we should also provide for sources of funding to be declared. All political parties must declare their source of funding so that …

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: … suspicions of Government resources being used are reduced.

Madam Chairperson, the Opposition, more often than not, is disadvantaged under this Act.
Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: You find that the ruling party usually has more money than the Opposition.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear! Kambwili speaking!

The Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1815 hours to 1830 hours.

________

ANNOUNCEMENT BY THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES

INTERNATIONAL WOMEN’S DAY

The Chairperson: Hon. Members, I wish to inform the House that this year’s International Women’s Day falls on Thursday, 8th March, 2007. The week preceding it has been declared a week of gender activism. It begins with the International Women’s Day prayers to be held at the Cathedral of the Child Jesus in Lusaka on Friday, 2nd March, 2007, at 1330 hours.

As in the past, the National Assembly will participate in these activities. Twenty hon. Members of Parliament and thirty parliamentary staff will represent the National Assembly at the March Past on Thursday, 8th March, 2007 and the same representatives will be expected to attend the prayers at the Cathedral of the Child Jesus tomorrow Friday, 2nd March, 2007 at 1330 hours.

In addition to these activities, a sensitisation meeting on various gender issues will take place in the amphitheatre Parliament Buildings on Tuesday, 6th March, 2007 at 1000 hours. All hon. Members of Parliament and parliamentary staff have been invited to attend the sensitisation meeting. The hon. Madam Deputy Speaker will be the guest of honour at the sensitisation meeting and all hon. Members and the other invited guests are expected to be seated at 0950 hours. I request all hon. Members to attend this important gathering.

Will the hon. Member for Roan continue, please.

I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

________

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the Chair]

VOTE 05 – (Electoral Commission – K32, 411,863,130).

(Consideration resumed)

Mr Kambwili: Madam Chairperson, when business was suspended, I was saying that if our democracy has to have any meaning, we should move away from a situation where the President appoints the Chairperson of the Electoral Commission of Zambia.

Madam Chairperson, the Chairperson of the Electoral Commission of Zambia should be appointed …

Mrs Sinyangwe crossed the Floor.

Hon. Members: Order! Seminar!

Mr Kambwili: … on merit from serving Judges.

Madam Chairperson, in view of the high unemployment levels in the country, I would suggest that during elections, returning officers and supporting staff …

Dr Chituwo: On a point of order, Madam!

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Dr Chituwo: Madam Chairperson, this is probably the first time I have stood on a point of order, but is the hon. Member on the Floor in order to state that the Chairperson of the Electoral Commission of Zambia must be elected on merit when the procedure is that the office bearer is actually ratified by this august House? I need your ruling.
Hon. Member: He does not know.

The Chairperson: The hon. Minister of Science, Technology and Vocational Training has raised a point of order that the hon. Member debating has said that the Chairperson of the Electoral Commission of Zambia is appointed, but they should be elected on merit. In his point of order, the hon. Minister has informed the House that the Chairperson of the Electoral Commission is ratified by this House. This means that this House participates in putting an individual in that important position. The hon. Member for Roan should take that into consideration as he continues with his contribution to the debate on the Vote.

Will the hon. Member continue, please.

Mr Kambwili: Madam Chairperson, I know that when you mention the President, people get jittery, but presidents will forever change.

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Kambwili: Madam Chairperson, …

The Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Members, I would like, once again, to guide the House. When a ruling has been made by the Chair, you do not qualify it. You move on to your next point. There is no qualifying the Speaker’s ruling. Let us take this as unprocedural. The ruling has been made, therefore, you move on.

Will the hon. Member continue, please.

Mr Kambwili: Madam Chairperson, in view of the high unemployment levels obtaining in the country, I would suggest that it be considered that returning officers and support staff during the elections be picked from school leavers and college leavers so that they can earn some money to prepare for their future.

Madam Chairperson, district returning officers should not be Government employees or council employees as is usually the case. Town Clerks are usually district returning officers. I would suggest that returning officers be picked from retirees who have no influence from Government.

Madam Chairperson, there should be no distribution of relief food during election time. Relief food should be distributed outside the election period because this has always disadvantaged the Opposition. It is high time that the Electoral Act clearly spelt out the fact that no relief food should be distributed during elections.

Madam Chairperson, we have heard, more often than not, the President visit areas during elections and state categorically that if they elected the Opposition, there would be no development there. This should be made a criminal offence so that presidents are deterred from making careless statements.

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: In conclusion, Madam Chairperson, sensitisation on elections should not wait until one or two months before the elections. It should be an on-going programme so that people are sensitised on the right way to vote and the requirements for one to stand as Member of Parliament and President. That way, people are fully informed.

Madam Chairperson, I also wish to submit that polling agents for all political parties must be paid by the State to avoid advantaging the ruling party.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

The Deputy Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Tetamashimba): Thank you very much, Madam Chairperson. I thank my friend for sitting down so that I can be allowed to debate.

Laughter

Mr Tetamashimba: First and foremost, Madam Chairperson, I want to congratulate the new young hon. Minister of Lands who was sworn in this morning at State House.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: I will give him all the support he needs.

Hon. Opposition Members: No, we will.

Mr Tetamashimba: We and our allies will give you all the support you need.

Laughter

Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Chairperson, first and foremost, I want to pay tribute to the Chairperson of the Electoral Commission of Zambia and her staff for conducting the most peaceful elections in many years.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: Credit goes to the President of this country who identified the Chairperson and Commission. He has done very well. I also wish to thank them for the transparency in which they conducted the elections, especially the Presidential elections. For the first time since the reintroduction of multi-partyism, all the candidates who stood for the presidency went to the press and congratulated President Mwanawasa and said they would not petition the election. I wish to thank my colleagues for that, especially the presidents of the United Democratic Alliance (UDA) and the Patriotic Front (PF) for having conceded that the presidential elections were the best ever.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Chairperson, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Bwekeshapo nakabili, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Chairperson, I also want to say …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter.

Mr Tetamashimba: … that for the first time, the elections would have been released faster than they were if the people on your left, especially the PF who, in the first place, had agreed that the results would be transmitted electronically had not changed their minds. At the last moment, …

Mr Magande: They changed.

Mr Tetamashimba: …they changed their minds thinking that the equipment would favour us. That is why there was that delay. Without that turn around by our colleagues, we would have had the election results in record time.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Chairperson, when the results were coming out at every polling station, the MMD was writing down the results of the candidates and the President. We were even transmitting the information before even the Electoral Commission knew. I had my results handed over to our headquarters. However, some political parties which had no order thought that they were already winning.

Laughter

Mr Tetamashimba: When we had the information that we had won because we had all the documents, they went from office to office.

Laughter

Mr Tetamashimba: A presidential candidate, Madam Chairperson, went to Cabinet Office to ask for civil servants, such as, Permanent Secretaries and above.

Mr Kambwili: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kambwili: Madam Chairperson, I rise on a very serious point of order. You have guided us in this House before that we should not debate people who are not in the House. Why is the hon. Deputy Minister is being allowed to debate people who are not in this House? I need a very serious ruling..

Hon. Government Members: Who?

Mr Kambwili: Leaders of political parties. I need a very serious ruling on this issue.

The Chairperson: Order!

The hon. Member for Roan has raised a point of order on the manner that the hon. Deputy Minister of Works and Supply is debating. He is debating people that are not here and, therefore, may not be able to defend themselves. My guidance is that no names have been mentioned in the debate.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: However, there are implications in statements. Therefore, I urge the hon. Deputy Minister to come back to the Motion on the Floor as he continues his debate.

Will the hon. Deputy Minister continue, please.

Mr Tetamashimba: Thank you very much, Madam Chairperson. Hon. Members from the other side of the House talked about the President in respect to helicopters. There is only one President in this country. We, as a Government, never stood up to defend that.

The Chairperson: Order! The ruling has been made.

Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Chairperson, people went to Government offices to demand for lists of civil servants and told the officers they found to consider themselves out of the list which they had. We know about that and people should not stand here when they know the facts.

Hon. Government Members: Shame!

Mr Tetamashimba: That was not correct. We who were already in Government were not scared by that. I can say that another good presidential candidate did not start threatening civil servants with the loss of their jobs and I give him credit for that.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Chairperson, the President we have today has integrity.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: The helicopter that was being mentioned by the PF hon. Member of Parliament in this Chamber was ordered by the former Government. Hon. Dr Machungwa will agree with me. They even paid for it.

Interruptions

Dr Machungwa: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Dr Machungwa: Madam Chairperson, is the hon. Deputy Minister of Works and Supply, who debates with so much gusto and sometimes economises on truth, in order to state that Hon. Dr Machungwa, having been Minister of Home Affairs, knew that a chopper had been ordered for the President when, in fact, that is not true and there are no such records and I never attended any such meeting? Is he in order to state that?

The Chairperson: The hon. Member is concerned that he has been mentioned as one individual that knew about the ordering of the presidential chopper and has categorically stated that he was not aware. Can the hon. Deputy Minister take that into consideration. Unless he has facts, he should not go back to that issue. In addition, do not qualify the Chair’s ruling.

Will the hon. Deputy Minister continue, please.

Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Chairperson, the fact that I will put forward is that this Government should come out and say that President Mwanawasa ordered that plane and I will leave this Chamber and go back to Solwezi.

Interruptions
Mr Tetamashimba: I hope that if the Government proves that the helicopter was ordered when he was in Government, he will do the same. That is what I can put on the Floor of this House. I hope that will be done.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

What I am saying about the integrity of the President is that even when the helicopter came into this country, he refused to use it. He said he would keep it until the new President came in. We should give credit to a person who is like that. I know that if it were a leader in the Opposition, he would have taken advantage and started going round so that he could get votes. You must give credit to President Mwanawasa.

Laughter

Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Chairperson, Hon. Dr Machungwa will agree with me that all the elections were being held during the rainy season. For the first time, President Mwanawasa said we should have elections during the dry season so that everybody can manage to go and campaign.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: You give credit where it is due. We know that during the time our other colleagues were in Government, there were no cabinet meetings. Only three people would meet and make decisions, including the one to buy a helicopter. We shall make sure that we get the truth on this issue.

Madam, for the first time, again, we made changes to the declaration of the President. In the last elections, the President was declared by the Chief Justice. This is because the Zambian people felt that the returning officer should not be the one to declare the election winner. This Government of President Mwanawasa decided to change that. The Chief Justice never used to declare the election winner. They were declared by the Chairperson of the Electoral Commission of Zambia who was ratified in this House by Hon. Kasongo, Hon. Dr Machungwa and Hon. Lubinda who are in this House.

Laughter

Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Chairperson, I agree in total with Hon. Kambwili’s statement that people and political parties must disclose the sources of their funding. It is not right for a leader to go to Malawi to get funding. You must get it within Zambia. I agree with you.

Laughter

Mr Tetamashimba: We should stop leaders from being involved in such activities. We should stop leaders from getting money in a briefcase which is impounded at the airport. I agree with what Hon. Kambwili said.

Laughter

Interruptions

Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Chairperson, for the first time, give credit to President Mwanawasa. You are aware that until President Mwanawasa came into office, the former Presidents, including those some of my colleagues served under, never dissolved Cabinet during elections. The Ministers went all out to win the elections. Those of us who won from the Opposition were very strong to defeat them. This time round, President Mwanawasa said there should be no Cabinet. For the first time, we saw some of those who were ministers campaigning on bicycles. You must give him credit for that.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions
Mr Tetamashimba: This is uncommon to leaders in the Opposition who served in Government when members of the Executive, of course, Hon. Dr Machungwa is a witness to that, …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Mr Tetamashimba: … used to go around using Government resources and vehicles. President Mwanawasa said no to that. We must give him credit for that.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Hammer!

Interruptions

Mr Tetamashimba: There were a lot of agreements which should have been signed by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, but were delayed because we did not want people to say Hon. Magande was getting a kickback because he was signing agreements. All those things were not there. We must start praising ourselves.

Madam Chairperson, I am not very happy with some of the items in the Yellow Book and I hope one political party is not going to take advantage of it. This is on pages 15 and 16 under units 5 and 7, on the provisions for by-elections. Zambians do not want by-elections unless somebody has committed an offence in Parliament. If it is outside that, do not chase them. I hear that they want to have a meeting to remove a councillor from the chamber. It is impossible to remove somebody who has been suspended. The authority which people refer to in court is the case which was won by the person speaking. Previously, people would just move, but my case brought about the situation where a person who has been suspended continues to serve. We do not want by-elections here. I appeal to Zambians out there to reject any political party that dismisses a person for doing what is right, for example, an hon. Member for coming to the Office of the hon. Minister of Works and Supply to ask for bridges, because they are wasting taxpayers’ money.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Mr Tetamashimba: I hope the Zambian people now, who do not want by-elections, are not going to allow such a thing in the country. If it happens, the decent political parties should now be sharing these seats so that we remove the political parties which thrive on anarchy and want to make this country ungovernable.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Mr Tetamashimba: Last but not least, it is not right when we, as hon. Members of Parliament, discuss issues in Committees, for example, as Chairpersons of committees we discuss the Budget, to go outside and talk about our discussions. It is right for an hon. Member of Parliament to suggest that an item be removed, but it is not right for that hon. Member of Parliament to talk about it in a seminar with outsiders. That is not right. That is what hon. Members of Parliament on your left, apart from the UPND hon. Members have been doing. That is not right.

Laughter

Interruptions

Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Chairperson, the MMD wants to work with hon. Members of Parliament. Please, come to all these ministers for developmental projects and we are not going to deny you what you deserve just because your leaders out there are jealous of your being here.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Mr Tetamashimba: We are going to help you so that next time, you can come back to this House. However, next time, you will choose either to be with us here or those that have decency in terms of their political party (Pointing at the UPND hon. Members).

I thank you, Madam.

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC (Chasefu): Madam Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate on the Vote on the Floor.

I rise to support the Head of expenditure relating to the Electoral Commission. Most of us had for long been crying for an independent Electoral Commission. This independent Electoral Commission has been given to us Zambians, hence, the reason this House passed the necessary legislation.

Having said this, it is only logical that this institution which was created by us is adequately funded. You will note that, for example, there is another law in this country providing for the continuous registration of voters. The funding which the Electoral Commission is requesting approval for relates to the continuous voter registration exercise. I think it is necessary that we support this. Not only that, there is also the question of the review of the electoral laws of Zambia. My friend, Hon. Kambwili, highlighted some of the areas which may call for law review. This exercise can only be undertaken if we fund the Electoral Commission. I, therefore, support this head of expenditure.

In addition, we have numerous electoral petitions now. For these petitions to be heard speedily, election officers must travel quickly to various courts that assist with the conduct of these cases. They need money for this. Shall we deny them that? I think we cannot.

There is also need, in my view, to ensure that the Electoral Commission is assisted in establishing the revised election laws. As it is now, it is extremely difficult for people to access pieces of legislation, regulations and so forth. I think it is a worthwhile exercise to fund them so that they can publish the revised electoral laws. That way, the laws will be easy to access. I think all of us support that.

Madam Chairperson, there is also the question of by-elections. None of us can say for sure when they are going to bid farewell to this beautiful Zambia. It is for this reason that provision must be made for by-elections. We do not like by-elections, but they are inevitable. They will happen. We do not know who will go first amongst us. I, therefore, support that provision be made for this.

With these few remarks, I thank you once again, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mrs Sinyangwe (Matero): Thank you very much, Madam Chairperson, for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the debate on this Vote.

Madam Chairperson, I would like to say firstly that I get very disappointed when men who are supposed to be honourable behave like cadres. What we say everyday must be followed. If we are going to be hon. Members here, we must be honourable and debate issues.

Madam, the Electoral Commission affects all of us. I said, even last time I debated, that nobody in this House has a permanent chair. Today, we can be in the opposition and, tomorrow, we can be in the ruling party. Today, you can be in the Front Bench and, tomorrow, you will be a back-bencher.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Sinyangwe: Therefore, we need to be practical and look at issues realistically. Sometimes, we make rules that disadvantage us sometime in life. We should look at the Electoral Commission in a neutral way whether we are in the Opposition or in the ruling party. It is common knowledge that the Electoral Commission, instead of being neutral, is biased most of the times.

I stood for elections in Mpika. The small Mpika Central was saturated with Government vehicles. Therefore, I do not agree when somebody stands up and says, ‘We do not send vehicles.’ because we do. What is important is that when discussing these issues, we must see where we have gone wrong and correct things because if we are defensive, we will talk year in year out without changing anything. I saw a situation where somebody was bribing people, but because they were in the ruling party, nothing was done to them. When I say something is wrong, even if PF is in power, I will come and stand here and say it is wrong because I am principled.

Interruptions

Mrs Sinyangwe: At some polling stations, I saw a situation where MMD cadres were moving in as observers and some people were paying money at the door, but the people who were supposed to see that it was wrong were not acting. However, if a member of the Opposition did a wrong thing, they all stood up and said something. That is not right.

I will agree that the Electoral Commission needs money, especially where education is concerned. Sometimes, our people do not even know how to vote. How do you expect them to learn on the television? There are no programmes on the ground to teach. We must sit down and see things realistically. That is what I am asking of you, hon. Members, because we want to have a Zambia which everybody will enjoy regardless of where you are.

If we are going to stand here as hon. Members to speak, we do not have our political leaders, why do we refer to them? No, we can not refer to a political party here. We refer to the President because he is the President of everybody. I have a stake and can talk about him because he is the one who is ruling the country. Some people want to own institutions and people. Nobody owns anybody. The hon. Minister of Education is my hon. Minister too because he looks after the affairs of education. It is just like anyone of you. Even the President is ours. Do not own him and protect him unnecessarily. It is not right. We must look at this. We must correct what is wrong and move forward.

Madam Chairperson, the Electoral Commission should be given money which should be used properly. Let us educate our people because they need to know their rights. I must know what my rights as an hon. Member of Parliament are because we take things for granted when people do not know what is happening. My plea is that let us debate as hon. Members, especially the hon. Ministers. They are supposed to give a good example. Do not be cadres.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Sinyangwe: You are our hon. Ministers. Let us not shun you. Let us move as hon. Members.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mrs Masebo): Thank you, Madam Chairperson for giving me this opportunity to add my voice in support of the Electoral Commission’s budget.

Madam Chairperson, I only want to speak on four items. The first item is on continuous registration. It is good to note that some resources have been put towards the continuous voter registration exercise. It is important that the people out there continue registering as voters in their respective areas so that we do not wait until there is a by-election or general election because by so doing, the Government has to spend so much money. I hope that the hon. Minister responsible for this Vote will ensure that each year we budget for continuous registration.

Madam Chairperson, I note that K6 billion has been allocated for by-elections. By-elections are necessary because we expect that in the next five years people will die sometimes due to the HIV/AIDS scourge or accidents. Therefore, it is necessary that this money is put there. However, the amount seems high because of some of the expectations from what has happened in the past years in this country.

Madam Chairperson, I want to use this opportunity to appeal to the various political parties with regard to local government. We have over 1,000 councillors in this country, therefore, we cannot afford, as a country, to have the unnecessary by-elections that some of our colleagues might want to cause. I am making reference to councillors as Minister of Local Government and Housing. It is a drain on the national budget to spend money even on matters that we can avoid.

The problem in this country is that when people lose elections, they tend not to be happy or fail to support either Members of Parliament or councillors who have won in their respective parties. Somehow, they want those people to suffer the same fate and feel as if they did not win. They would like you as a parliamentarian or councillor not to act as if you have won. This is an African problem and we have seen it. So, this is not the first time.

It is most unfortunate that the leaders of political parties, when they lose, want even those who have won to behave as if they have lost. It is high time we begun to understand what multi-partyism means and what it means to have the Opposition both in the House at parliamentary and local government level. It is true that the Opposition can contribute effectively either at the national or local government level through the councillors or Members of Parliament who have won the elections. However, we have a situation where when one is not a Member of Parliament, he wants to use a political party to intimidate those colleagues of his who have won as Members of Parliament and councillors, which is most unfortunate. We need to grow and accept this multi-partyism that we have accepted.

Madam Chairperson, if this trend continues, as a Government, we are going to think twice about the law. Speaking for local government, the question that I am asking myself is: ‘Should I now bring an amendment to the Local Government Act that when a party suspends or expels a member of the council on account of that member performing his/her civic duties, the Government must not recognise that expulsion?’

Hon. PF Members: Yes, bring it tomorrow and you will see!

Mrs Masebo: Should that be an amendment to the Local Government Act?

Interruptions

Mrs Masebo: Madam Chairperson, as Minister of Local Government and Housing, my job is to ensure that all councillors under my ministry are protected and perform in accordance with the laws made in this House. Otherwise, the laws that are made in this House will become a mockery. Can you imagine making laws and then having people use the back door to expel a member based on party policies that are in conflict with the laws of the land? Which law should be superior, the local government law or a party law?

Interruptions

Mrs Masebo: Madam Chairperson, when my colleagues were debating, they were saying that we must respect each other when debating. We have different views and that is why each one of us is given a chance to talk. Let us give honour to this House. There is no need to heckle when I am talking. You must listen. If you disagree with me, when you have an opportunity, you will talk.

The Chairperson: Order!

The hon. Member should not listen to hecklers, but continue debating. That is why the Chair is here to protect when there is need for protection. May the hon. Member continue talking. The Chair is listening and those who need to listen are also listening.

The hon. Minister may continue.

Mrs Masebo: Thank you, Madam Chairperson, for your guidance and protection.

Madam, I was saying that it is necessary that when one is performing his duties whether in Parliament or in the council, the law should protect them. The laws that we make here will become meaningless if other bodies can use other laws to usurp the powers or cause a person not to perform their duties even after they have been elected. This kind of arrangement is making councils ineffective. If parties are going to hold press conferences and begin to direct councils to call for meetings and take decisions contrary to the Local Government Act, then we have a problem.

Madam Chairperson, I want to give notice that I will bring an amendment to the Local Government Act and I hope that both the right and left sides will support the amendment.

Hon. PF Members: Tomorrow!

Mrs Masebo: Madam Chairperson, the other issue that I wanted to discuss is that of the last elections and, indeed, the by-elections that follow. There has been talk here of the Government of the day misusing public resources. I want to state, and I think one of my colleagues who spoke earlier said it, that this was the first President to dissolve Cabinet prior to the elections.

Mr Kambwili: The Vice-President!

Mrs Masebo: The Office of the President, which includes the Vice-President, by law, is allowed to use public resources.

Hon. PF Members: No!

Mrs Masebo: Madam Chairperson, it is also true that the President is on record for making it very clear that no Minister would use public resources even in a by-election. Therefore, in terms of the law and directions from the Head of State, I think let us give credit where it is due.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Obviously, in every situation, there will be some people that will do things that are not within the law. However, the bottom line is that this Government, the Mwanawasa Government, is a Government of laws and the President has made it very clear that no Minister or Deputy Minister shall use public resources, and that includes even transport, to campaign. We should not talk about something as if it is a general rule. Of course, people can complain if somebody has done something wrong, then we will continue hearing many things and the President will also continue acting even against his Ministers when they are found wanting.

Madam Chairperson, I thought that it was necessary to put the record straight and say that it was not true for someone to stand here and say that this administration was using public resources for by-elections or elections. I think that it is important to give credit where it is due.

Madam Chairperson, lastly, I would like to say that the people of Zambia might seem quiet and sometimes docile as others might think, but they are watching. If there will be any by-election here in Lusaka caused by people’s selfishness, that party is going to lose.

I thank you Madam.

Interruptions

The Deputy Minister of Energy and Water Development (Mr Sichilima): Madam Chairperson, I thank you very much for allowing me to catch your eye very timely.

Laughter

Mr Sichilima: The previous speaker, the hon. Minister, who is in pink as I am, spoke very well and I would like to take her words as my mine.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shakafuswa: You will cry.

Mr Sichilima: Madam Chairperson, I will be very brief. I want to register to others that have spoken before me on this Vote. I want to put it on record that I take the words of some of my colleagues that have said that we need to debate issues here.
Madam Chairperson, charity begins at home.

Laughter

Mr Shakafuswa: Hey, one!

Mr Sichilima: If where we come from, we do not respect even a chief from the village, …

Mr Tetamashimba: Village headman.

Mr Sichilima: ... never mind the village headman, we will never respect a governor, a district commissioner, a cabinet minister, a vice-president or even a president because of hatred.

Hon. Government Members: Yes!

Mr Sichilima: We are confusing hatred and democracy.

Laughter

Mr Sichilima: Madam Chairperson, laws are made in this House. Today, …

Mr Muntanga: Hatred against who?

Mr Shakafuswa: Hatred against you.

Mr Sichilima: …we are called hon. Members who come here to make the same laws. If, for instance, we do not respect the incumbent president, who is guarded by law, even what is referred to in elections, somebody using …

The Chairperson: Order!

Can I, once again, inform the House that there are disciplinary measures that are taken if you continue debating from your seat. You may say something wrong and against the acceptable norms of the House and you may be disciplined.

I expect hon. Members to have patience and listen and not to shout across the Floor. It is either you have debated or you will have your opportunity to debate. So, let us have order. Those that are consulting quietly, let them do so, but let us not shout across the Floor. We are bringing dishonour to our very august House. I implore the hon. Members that are fond of that to stop. Apply every bit of strength in you to exercise patience.

May the hon. Deputy Minister continue.

Mr Sichilima: I thank you very much.

Madam Chairperson, I was saying that in the case of the incumbent president, it has to take us who have made the same laws in this House to respect that person. That way, even others that are going to come on board will be respected. If we do not find it fit, it is in this House that we need to come, honourably,  and change what we need to change.

Madam Chairperson, ubufumu bucindika umwine. If we do not respect our own president in this country, who will respect him? We have to make laws in this House befitting the position of President. Let us not trivialise that position because, maybe, we hate the name Mwanawasa. Whether we like it or not, he is the President.

The Chairperson: Order!

We are debating the Electoral Commission.

The hon. Deputy Minister can continue
Interruptions

Mr Shakafuswa: Even the man who was elected in an election must be respected.

Mr Sichilima: Even the money that has put in this budget is good. Hon. Magande and his officials have done well. For the first time, …

Mr Shakafuswa: Magandenomics is working!

Mr Sichilima: I was going to say ‘Magande economics’ is working.

Laughter

Mr Sichilima: Indeed, it is working because …

Laughter

Mr Sichilima: … it is reflecting in the Yellow Book.

If we want the laws that we have made in this House to work properly, there must be adequate funding. Even the electoral flaws that have been talked about are seen because of inadequate money. However, this time around there is money.

One thing that my colleagues forgot is that 98 per cent, if not all, of the last elections were funded by the Government. Our own money was used. The speaker on the Floor won an election and is speaking today.

Madam Chairperson, the respect that I am talking about includes incidences like tomorrow. I know that you have given guidance that we are debating the vote for the Electoral Commission, but with regard to the Women’s Day, I am on record for having been a deputy to ladies, including the former Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services, …

Mr Tetamashimba:  Who is now …

Mr Sichilima: Hon. Nalumango Mutale, who is now, …

Laughter

Mr Sichilima: Madam Chairlady.

We need to respect leaders. The point I am getting to is that this is timely.

Laughter

Mr Sichilima: We need to move with time. Madam Chairlady …

Laughter

Mr Sichilima: … Chairperson, we all know that …

Interruptions

Mr Sichilima: … even the Chairperson of the Electoral Commission, who others have commended, and I want to join them in commending her for the good job that she did.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichilima: We saw the largest numbers of registered voters since independence.

Mr Tetamashimba: Yes, yes!
Laughter

Mr Sichilima: It was a good job.

Laughter

Mr Sichilima: Finally, I would like to say that …

Mr Muntanga: On a point of order, Madam.

Laughter

Mr Tetamashimba: Iwe Muntanga, sit down.

Mr Sichilima: … next time we debate, let us not trivialise issues.

I thank you, Madam.

Laughter

The Chairperson: Order! Listening to the debate on the Electoral Commission, one tends to believe that there are no new points on the subject.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: I will allow one hon. Member who will have to debate this Vote. Outside that, we may not continue to give fifteen minutes.

Mr Mwansa (Chifunabuli): Madam Chairperson, I would like to thank you for giving me the opportunity to contribute to the debate on this Vote which is extremely important for the good of our country and the picture that we portray to the world around us.
One cannot underplay the importance of the Electoral Commission of Zambia.

Mr Mukanga: Uleumfwa!

Mr Mwansa: To belittle the issue to the levels I have listened to today, is very sad. The very institute of democracy depends on the believability of those who help us conduct the elections in a free and fair environment.

Madam Chairperson, I have looked at the Vote for the Electoral Commission and I am a little saddened by some of the provisions that the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning has made for this important commission.

Madam Chairperson, allow me to refer you to Programme 7, Activity 02 – Implementation of Continuous Voter Registration – K84,000,000.00. I did some mathematics and divided that figure by the number of our districts. This comes to less than K2 million per district. The importance of voter registration cannot be underplayed because the people who are going to vote for us need national registration cards to obtain voters’ cards. I think we are disenfranchising those who ought to be voting. The majority of people in this country are youths. The youth require national registration cards to be captured as voters. If you are giving less than K2 million to each district for voter registration for the whole year, what are we doing as a country?

Madam Chairperson, I feel the seriousness with which we treat the Electoral Commission of Zambia will give either a picture of a blossoming democracy or a democracy that has been undermined by those in power. We are here to consider a very important Vote. I am sad to imagine that we can only apportion less than K2 million for continuous voter registration. Surely, we can do better than that. I appeal to the hon. Minister of Finance and National planning to look at that afresh. We have 150 constituencies and if we were to divide K84 million by 150 constituencies, we would have less than K500,000.00 to talk about. How many people can we register as voters from that kind of money in any constituency? These are things that ought to sadden us. This gives a picture that we are not as serious as we pretend to be when we sit in this House.

Madam Chairperson, secondly, I am very happy to note that there is an allocation for the final review of legislation. I hope this relates to the Electoral Act and that these are consultations that will finally culminate into a new Electoral Act which will meet the aspirations of the people of our country. I think you will agree with me that there has been a lot of talk. Most of the stakeholders have raised issues concerning the Electoral Act. I am pleased to note that K229 million has been allocated towards this project.

Madam Chairperson, my hope is that, at the end of the day, we will be able to determine, for example, who an aggrieved party must report to when someone has breached the law during the election process. One of the major problems in our countries when there is a malpractice in the electoral procedures is who to report to or who to take the matter up to court. Our law has never been clear on that issue.

Consequently, when you report a matter, unless an amendment which I am not aware of has taken place, people always pass the buck. What I remember is that the police used to refer people to the Anti-corruption Commission saying they were the ones who should deal with the problem. When one reported to the Anti-Corruption Commission, they would also refer them to the police.

Mr Kunda: On a point of order, Madam.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kunda: Madam Chairperson, I am getting concerned with the way my learned friend is debating.

Madam, we passed a law, the Electoral Act, here, and we clearly spelt out which institutions have jurisdiction over the Electoral Act. For example, the Electoral Commission of Zambia and the Zambia Police are the institutions empowered to administer the Electoral Act. Is he in order to mislead this House and the nation at large that there is still doubt as to which institutions are required to deal with complaints under the Electoral Act? I need you ruling.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: The hon. Minister of Justice has raised a point of order. His concern is that the hon. Member speaking has said there is no particular institution to which electoral malpractices are supposed to be reported and that the buck is passed from one institution to another. The hon. Minister of Justice’s concern is that this is misleading because there is an Act that clearly spells out who should be reported to or who should take responsibility for that.

My guidance is that the point of order is informative. Therefore, the hon. Member debating should take that into account.

May the hon. Member continue.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwansa: I thank you, Madam Chairperson.
Madam Chairperson, I think my learned colleague seems to miss the point that it is still …

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Mwansa: To me, it seems he has missed the point that it is still not clear …

The Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Members, when the Chair has ruled, you move on. You do not start qualifying the ruling and describing what you think. You must move on and take that point into consideration as an informative point. Therefore, you may not refer to what has been ruled upon.

You may continue.

Mr Mwansa: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Madam, when a person is aggrieved, he or she must know where to go directly. You do not give alternatives to the person. You provide a straight picture for that person so that they know where to go. A situation where you have to chose between the Electoral Commission and the Police still leaves a lot of people in doubt. That is the point that I wanted to make.

Madam Chairperson, I also want to say that there are many other points in the Electoral Act which were raised by stakeholders. We discussed a lot. This year, we were privileged to hold elections during the dry season, but that was at the discretion of the President. It was not a legal provision. The concern is that there are certain fundamental issues that we should not leave to the whims of an individual. When we have a bad President, we will have a bad presidency. When you have a good President, things change. That is not the way you run a country. You run a country on laws and I am happy that the President said that he is a President who upholds the law. The good thing about the law is that it does not look people in the fact, but applies to all in the same way. And so, I would like to see our law clearly stipulate the date of the elections.

There is also the issue of who should call for the elections. This has been a fundamental issue and has been discussed by stakeholders and we need to be clear about it. Yes, the President …

Interruptions
Mr Mwansa: … currently calls for elections, but there are a lot of stakeholders …

Mr Tetamashimba: On a point of order, Madam.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Chairperson, I stand to raise a very serious point of order on the debate of the hon. Member who is a lawyer. Is he in order to debate that the law needs to be changed when he is holding this Yellow Book in which there is a provision of K202 billion for changing the law through a Constituent Assembly?

Laughter

Mr Tetamashimba:  Is he in order to discuss what is going to be done in this House and is already in this document? I need your serious ruling Madam.

The Chairperson: The hon. Deputy Minister is concerned that the hon. Member on the Floor is debating what is already provided in the Yellow Book. When you listen to this debate, you will realise that hon. Members are debating what is in the Budget.

Hon. PF Members: Yes!

The Chairperson: The hon. Member may continue.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwansa: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

I could see my hon. Colleague smiling, therefore, I knew that he just wanted to eat a bit of my time. I will excuse him.

Madam Chairperson, the point that I am trying to bring out is that we talk about issues that are of concern to the people and these are what we need to focus on. I said in the beginning that I was very happy to see a provision of K229 million for the final review of the legislation. Therefore, I am very conscious of that provision and very happy that it is there. What I have done is highlight some of the concerns that stakeholders have brought out concerning the Electoral Act. The Act must be amended to comply with these concerns.

Madam Chairperson, I heard the Hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing, who is looking away, …

Laughter

Mr Mwansa: … talk about bringing a Bill to the House to deal with a situation that has arisen in one of the councils. Allow me, Madam Chairperson, to say what I said when I was in this House before, that it is extremely dangerous to make a law because a situation has arisen. This is because that law targets a person or an individual. Never make laws like that. Those who have been long in the practice of law know that there were hon. Members of this House who passed the Preservation of Public Security Act which caught up with them. They became the victims. Never pass a law to deal with …

Mrs Masebo: On a point of order, Madam.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mrs Masebo: Madam Chairperson, I seek your serious ruling on the point of order I am about to raise. Is the learned hon. Member of Parliament, who is debating so well, in order to insinuate that one cannot bring an amendment to the Act arising from a situation, especially in a situation where you know that the powers of this House are being usurped through the back door? I seek your serious ruling.

The Chairperson: The hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing is concerned with the debate of the hon. Member on the Floor when he says that a law cannot be amended to target an action or an individual. The hon. Minister says that is correct. My guidance is that this House is a House of debate and, therefore, that is the opinion and the understanding of the hon. Member on the Floor at the moment. When the Bill comes, the debate will continue and this is the way it goes in this House.

Will the hon. Member continue, please.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwansa: Madam Chairperson, I thank you very much. I am also grateful to the hon. Minister for bringing out her concerns. However, the point I am driving at is that we should make laws that are blind and deal with situations as they arise and not those that are targeted because there are always consequences. Some hon. Members who are senior to me know what I am talking about. I am not against the creation of laws to deal with situations, but targeted laws have their dangers and you may live to remember this.

We should remember that governments will come and governments will go, but the laws that we …

Major Chizhyuka: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Major Chizhyuka: Madam Chairperson, I rise on a very serious point of order. Is the hon. Member on the Floor in order to mislead this House by stating that laws must not be made in this House to target individuals or situations when, in actual fact, he was a Member of this House at the time a law was passed targeted at stopping former President, Dr Kenneth Kaunda, from standing as president? It was a law targeted at an individual?Is it not truism?
The Chairperson: Order!

Make your point of order otherwise you are debating.

Major Chizhyuka: I just wanted to mention, Madam Chairperson, that is it not truism that a law should be targeted to sort out mischief? Is he in order?

Laughter

The Chairperson: The concern is that, again, the hon. Member, who has risen on a point of order, believes that the debate of the hon. Member on the Floor is not addressing issues in the manner that he understands them that laws should be targeted at individuals who have been found mischievous. The guidance of the Chair is still the same. The hon. Member on the Floor, if you have listened to him carefully, has referred to his own experience as the hon. Member who has raised the point of order has stated. He is speaking from experience. Therefore, he admits that he participated in passing a law that targeted individuals and it boomeranged on the people that enacted it.

Will the hon. Member continue, please.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mwansa: I am grateful, Madam Chairperson. It is one thing to target situations and deal with the wrong situation and if it touches people, that is a totally different case. However, it is wrong to make a law because you have an individual in mind that you want to deal with. That is the point I am trying to make and I will not relent from that. This is because while we, as hon. Members, have the power to make laws, let us remember that we are also subject to the laws we make. There is no one who is above the law and when the law bites, it does not choose whether you are an hon. Member of Parliament or not. It is blind and punishes equally. Therefore, we must be prudent in the way we make laws. They must be laws that deal with situations and not with people. Just because we may not like a person does not give us the right to legislate against them. That is a wrong principle and it will always be wrong. Therefore, my appeal to the hon. Minister is that if she has to bring a law, let her remember that, tomorrow, it might be her in the Opposition and she may have to deal with the situation that we are in. That is my appeal to her. I pray that whatever we do is done for the good of this country and not to embarrass one another.

Madam Chairperson, this is one Vote that I feel very strongly we must obviously support. However, I think that the funding to it is not adequate. This is because it is extremely important to the wellbeing of our country, the development of our democracy and the institutionalisation of the autonomy of the Electoral Commission of Zambia.

I thank you, Madam.

The Vice-President: Madam Chairperson, thank you, once again, for giving me this opportunity to extend my thanks to my hon. Colleagues for this most useful debate that we have had this evening concerning the ECZ. I wish to express my appreciation for the support of the commission in that many hon. Members have said that we should support their funding request.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

VOTE 05 – (Electoral Commission of Zambia –K32,411,863,130).

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 7, Activity 01 – Audits Visits to 72 districts – K222,500,000 and Activity 02 – Post 2006 Election Audits Visits – K25,000,000. I would like to find out whether ECZ shall conduct its own financial audits and performance audits because this is a function of the Auditor-General. Why have you allocated this money to the commission and not to the Auditor-General’s Office?

The Vice-President: Madam Chairperson, …

The Chairperson: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

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HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

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The House adjourned at 1957 hours until 0900 hours on Friday, 2nd March 2007.