DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE FIRST SESSION OF THE TENTH ASSEMBLY

Tuesday, 6th March, 2007

The House met at 1430 hours

[MADAM DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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ANNOUNCEMENT BY MADAM DEPUTY SPEAKER

ACTING LEADER OF GOVERNMENT BUSINESS IN THE HOUSE

Madam Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, in the absence of His Honour the Vice-President who is attending to other national duties, Hon. G. W. Mpombo, MP, Minister of Defence, has been appointed Acting Leader of Government Business in the House.

Thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

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QUESTIONS

REHABILITATION OF ROADS IN MAPATIZYA CONSTITUENCY

348. Mr Sejani (Mapatizya) to ask the Minister of Works and Supply when the following roads would be rehabilitated:

(i) Kalomo/Mapatizya;
(ii) Zimba/Mukuyu;
(iii) Zimba/Kanyanga/Kapanga; and
(iv) Luyaba/Mafumba.

The Deputy Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Tetamashimba): Madam Speaker, I wish to inform the House that the four roads are feeder roads which are under the maintenance jurisdiction of the road authority i.e. Kolomo District Council. They should be presented to the council for inclusion in the council’s prioritised annual work plan for 2008.

The prioritised annual work plans from the councils will be consolidated into one provincial annual work plan which will be submitted to the Road Development Agency headquarters for consideration (based on the budget) and approval by the Road Development Agency Board.

I thank you, Madam.

TEACHERS EMPLOYED BY THE GOVERNMENT: JANUARY 2003 TO 2007

349. Mr Sejani asked the Minister of Education how many teachers had been employed by the Government from January, 2003 to date.

The Minister of Education (Professor Lungwangwa): Madam Speaker, Government has employed 15,485 teachers from 2003 to-date, broken down as follows:

Year No. of Teachers

2004 3,385
2005 5,000
2006 June 3,074
2006 October 4,026

Total is as already indicated.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Sejani: Madam Speaker, there is a widespread shortage of teachers countrywide, and I want the hon. Minister of Education …

Mr D. Mwila: On a point of order, Madam.

Madam Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr D. Mwila: Madam Speaker, I stand to raise a very serious point of order. Is the Minister of Mines and Minerals Development in order to keep quiet, without informing the nation and this House, on the strike which has been going on in Luanshya? This is the seventh day. Madam Speaker, you are aware that in 2005, we had a strike at Konkola Copper Mines (KCM) and I remember very well that the company was losing US $2 million a day. Looking at the number of days that the employees have been on strike, when the economy of this country depends on the mining sector, I need your serious ruling.

I will quote from today’s Times of Zambia and it reads:

‘The mine, which produces 65 tonnes of copper per day, has remained at a standstill as the strike entered the sixth day.’

The sixth day was yesterday and today the strike is still on.

Hon. Members: Lay the paper on the Table.

Mr D. Mwila laid the paper on the Table.

Madam Deputy Speaker: The hon. Member for Chipili has raised a point of order concerning the strike on the mines and that the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development has kept quiet and not informed the nation about the strike. My ruling and advice to the hon. Member, and the House, is that the issue of the strike on the mines was dealt with last week …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Deputy Speaker: … by the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security. A question was raised and it was answered in this House. Therefore, we will not go back.

The hon. Member for Mapatizya may continue.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sejani: Madam Speaker, before I was interrupted, I was trying to find out from the Minister and seek confession from him that, in fact, the quality of education in this country is seriously compromised, given the widespread shortage of teachers, especially in our rural areas, in that this shortage is pushing the teacher-pupil ratio upwards, making it very difficult for the teachers to pay necessary attention per child.

Professor Lungwangwa: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member has made a comment and not asked a question. It is a comment bordering on the quality of education in the country and I would like to inform him that one of the cardinal aspects of our education policy which we are following judiciously is the concern about the quality of education in our country. That is why we are giving a lot of attention to the recruitment of teachers and their deployment with a clear priority to the areas of deficiency like the rural areas.

In addition to the deployment of teachers, we are paying attention to the procurement of educational materials as well as other aspects which are cardinal to the improvement of the quality of education in our educational system across all the provinces.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kakoma (Zambezi West): Madam Speaker, may I find out from the hon. Minister whether there are teachers that graduated from our training colleges and have not been employed by the Ministry of Education or are still roaming the streets. If there are, may I find out why these graduate teachers have not been employed.

Professor Lungwangwa: Madam Speaker, I have pointed out, on several occasions in the House, that the process of recruiting teachers is ongoing. Last year, as I pointed out, we recruited 7,100 teachers and, this year, we are projecting to recruit 4,000 teachers. That is net, as indicated in the budget. Then, we will recruit 2,800 teachers for replacement. So, the recruitment of those teachers who are not yet in the system is ongoing and we hope that by next year, we should be able to employ all those that were left out.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Chilembo (Chama North): Thank you, Madam Speaker. Hon. Minister, it is clear that you are suffering from a shortage of teachers. When are you finalising the Senanga teachers’ problem?  I am talking about the eighty six suspended teachers. Is it possible that you can use your discretion to resolve the matter if the democratic disciplinary system is taking too long?

Professor Lungwangwa: Madam Speaker, that issue was part of my ministerial statement and I did point out that I would make a subsequent statement in the House when the current process through the disciplinary committee is completed. Very soon, that will be done.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Milupi (Luena): Madam Speaker, would the hon. Minister be in a position to inform the House on the total number of separations through death, dismissals and retirements over the same period and also tell us the net inflow or outflow of teachers into the teaching service over the same period?

Professor Lungwangwa: Madam Speaker, that is a totally new question for which we can provide informed answers through our research process.

I thank you, Madam.

Dr Scott (Lusaka Central): Madam Speaker, I am sure it is an oversight, but is the hon. Minister aware that in the recruitment process, at least in my constituency, blind teachers have been excluded and are now living as beggars? If I let him have the names of these people, can he assure us that he will correct this discriminatory feature of his recruitment process?

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! That is a new question.

Mr Mwansa (Chifunabuli): Madam Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether he does realise that failure to provide teachers to the various schools in our country is undermining the education and, consequently, the development of children in these rural set ups. Consequently, a generation of people will arise who have been denied a basic right to education and will be, as it were, receded to …

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! Ask your question.

Mr Mwansa: Is the hon. Minister aware that there will be a generation of people who are being created as illiterates due to the failure to provide teachers and if so, can he confirm to this House that this is a crisis that requires borrowing money, if necessary, to recruit teachers immediately?

Professor Lungwangwa: Madam Speaker, I am sure that the hon. Member was very attentive when I was answering the question by Hon. Sejani and what he is asking is exactly what I answered. I said that there is no failure in the recruitment of teachers. We are, as a Government, in the process of recruiting teachers and putting them in our schools. The process is ongoing.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Muyanda (Sinazongwe): Madam Speaker, may the hon. Minister tell this august House what measures he has put in place to discipline or control teachers who deliberately or indirectly refuse to be posted to the rural schools because of abject poverty there.

Professor Lungwangwa: Madam Speaker, in the light of the demand and supply equation, if a teacher does not want to go to work in a rural environment, it means, of course, that they will not get employed. It is as simple as that. Those who are willing to go and work in our schools in the remote areas are given the opportunity of being employed.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Chazangwe (Choma Central): Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that by allowing community schools in rural areas, pupils are being poisoned, instead of being taught because they are taught by teachers who are less qualified?

Interruptions

Professor Lungwangwa: Madam Speaker, I am not aware of any poisoning in any of our educational institutions.

Laughter

Professor Lungwangwa: I wish, through the Chair, the hon. Member could inform this House of any poisoning, at all, that is going on, especially in his constituency. I will be the first one to take drastic steps to protect our children, being the hon. Minister in charge of the local parenting of the children in this nation.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Madam Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister of Education whether the MMD Government’s policy allows traditional leaders to whip teachers who are failing to teach in local areas.

Laughter

Professor Lungwangwa: Madam Speaker, maybe in Southern Province where the hon. Member, my cousin, comes from, chiefs are allowed to whip adults. I am not aware of any provision within our education legal framework that allows anybody, including the chiefs, to whip any of our education personnel.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Madam Speaker, I am aware that it takes about one to four years from the time a teacher graduates to the time that, maybe, one is employed. By that time, one would have forgotten what he learnt at college. Would the hon. Minister, therefore, confirm that the quality of education in Zambia has gone down as a result of that trend?

Professor Lungwangwa: Madam Speaker, I am very disappointed that the hon. Member is repeating the same question which he asked a few weeks ago, and which I competently and convincingly answered.

Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Professor Lungwangwa: If he cares to listen, I can repeat what I said. I told the House that our trained teachers, when they are in the field, have opportunities for in-service training. The in-service training programmes enhance their professionalism and there is no such thing as standards falling because our teachers are not professionally competent to handle the classes. They are, by virtue of the training they get, professionally certified to enter our classrooms and competently handle our children. In addition, in the in-service training programmes they are exposed to, they do, as I pointed out, have these opportunities for in-service professional training programmes, which take place at the zone centres, and in our other training programmes.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Habeenzu (Chikankata): Madam Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minster of Education, why the Government has continued to put retired teachers on contract when we have trained teachers who are roaming the streets.

Professor Lungwangwa: Madam Speaker, retired teachers, if they are there, are very few and the retirement age is fifty-five.

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COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the Chair]

ANNOUNCEMENT BY THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON

GUIDANCE BY THE CHAIR

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Members, before I can call on the hon. Minister of Justice to continue his debate, I have a few things to say.

Hon. Members, as you are aware, the Committee of Supply is now debating the votes of specific ministries, departments or institutions and is dealing with individual items of those ministries, departments or institutions. I wish to give some guidance on this matter.

Last week, during the policy debates on individual ministries, departments or institutions, the Chair observed that hon. Members were drifting into general debates or cross-country debates which, at times, tended to go outside the specific Heads of Expenditure on the Floor. In many cases, this led to the repetitions of what was already said during the general debate on the Budget Motion. Hon. Members were straying or wandering into areas of irrelevance.

I wish to appeal to hon. Members to observe that the policy debates on specific ministries, departments or institutions should be strictly focused on those ministries, departments or institutions. It is against the rules of debate for hon. Members to, once again, engage in cross-country debates of a general nature when we are discussing particular Heads of Expenditure.

I appeal to hon. Members to be more focused in their debates and avoid repeating what they said during the general debate on the budget motion. Debates should be brief and to the point so that more hon. Members are given the opportunity to speak. This will also allow the House to make progress and pass the budget in the shortest possible time.

Furthermore, I appeal to hon. Members to be calm in their debates and avoid raising emotions which may tend to slow down the pace of passing the budget. The debates should be dignified and should avoid confrontation which degenerates in the House and compromises its honour and dignity, thereby inciting unjustified negative comments from the press and the public.

Thank you.

VOTE 07/01 – (Office of the Auditor-General – Headquarters – K67,967,947,977)

(Consideration resumed)

The Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda): Thank you, Mr Chairman. On Friday last week, I was talking about the failure on the part of the hon. Member for Kasama Central to provide evidence on his allegation that the Government interferes in the work of the Auditor-General. As I submitted, this New Deal Government considers the Auditor-General’s office as independent and it enjoys autonomy. That is independence and protection. The tenure of office of the Auditor-General is protected. Now, I also wish to submit that as we do the Constitution Review process, we should look at strengthening the office by making the Office of the Auditor-General pensionable so that the holder of that office can get a pension. This should be extended, as we do the Constitution Review process, to other constitutional office holders like the Attorney-General, Solicitor-General, Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP) and so on.

Reference was also made by the hon. Member for Kasama Central to some literature emanating from Transparency International. I have read that book and it contains secondary information and it makes conclusions and passes judgment on persons or cases which are in court or which have not even been taken to court.

Mr Chairperson, this can even lead to litigation because some of the contents of that book are defamatory. The nature of the Auditor-General’s Report is such that the Auditor-General expresses an opinion and this is the job of an auditor. For example, in expenditure, they would say the line of expenditure is questionable and names of persons are not mentioned. The Auditor-General does not sit as a court to find people guilty of offences. This is left to other investigative agencies.

Sir, in his debate, Hon. Mwiimbu submitted that the misappropriation of K36 billion was disclosed to this House and that no action had been taken by the Government. That is far from the truth. If you recall, when Hon. Magande, the Minister of Finance and National Planning, gave a statement on this issue, he gave statistics of cases which are in court. A lot of people are appearing in court and others are being investigated. I would like to remind the hon. Member that the Government is taking all the necessary steps to ensure that remedial measures are taken.

Mr Chairperson, coming back to the Auditor-General’s Office, there is need to strengthen it by providing more personnel. The Constitution also provides that after the Auditor-General leaves office, he or she cannot be appointed to any office in the Public Service. It is like that of the position of Judge. Once you retire, you cannot practise, hence they have pensions and better conditions. Therefore, if we strengthen this particular office and extend similar conditions like those enjoyed by Judges, we would have a stronger Office of the Auditor-General.

This is the brief remark I wanted to make.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for allowing me to add my voice to the vote on the Auditor-General. In so doing, may I commend all hon. Members of Parliament who attended the workshop over the weekend where the Office of the Auditor-General also made a presentation on how they expect this House to interact with them.

Sir, I would also like to commend the Auditor-General and all her staff for the tremendous work they are doing under immense pressure and many difficulties. It is very difficult in this country to operate as Auditor-General under the circumstances which that office is operating. Some of the issues have been highlighted by the Minister of Justice, Mr Kunda, but I wish to add to that long list of the problems encountered by the Auditor-General’s Office.

Mr Chairperson, the first and most fundamental problem, which I was hoping the Chief Justice would address, is the structural problem. Article 118(1) of the Constitution of Zambia, provides very clear directives to the Minister of Finance and National Planning. With your permission, I would like to quote:

‘The Minister responsible for finance shall cause to be prepared and shall lay before the National Assembly, not later than nine months after the end of each financial year, a report in respect of that year.’

Sir, this is the report that the Auditor-General depends on to audit transactions of the Government. It ought to be laid on the Table of this House nine months after the end of the financial year. In addition to that, the Constitution also prescribes the job of the Auditor-General. Under Article 121(4), it states and I quote:

‘The Auditor-General shall, not later than twelve months after the end of each financial year, submit a report on the accounts referred to in paragraph (c) of Clause (2) in respect of the financial year to President, who shall not later than seven days after the first sitting of the National Assembly next after the receipt of such report, cause it to be laid before the National Assembly …’

Mr Chairperson, this shows that the Constitution only provides three months within which the Auditor-General should go through the financial report produced by the Minister of Finance and National Planning.

Again, I want to reiterate my commendation of the Auditor-General. Year after year, ever since MMD came into Government, the Auditor-General has managed to submit the audit reports long before the financial report is ready. This year, the Auditor-General’s Report for the year 2005, was laid on the Table even before the financial report for the year 2005 was prepared by the Ministry of Finance and National Planning. How do you expect them to operate? They are doing what they can in working extremely hard and yet the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, which is the number one client of the Auditor-General, is making it difficult for them to operate by not producing the financial report in accordance with the Constitution. I was hoping the Minister of Justice would comment on that and urge his colleague, the Minister of Finance and National Planning, to ensure that he lives within the provisions of the Constitution.

Sir, as a result of that, the Auditor-General, year after year, has been unable to prepare outturn and appropriation accounts. They are not prepared and, therefore, this House is ill-informed. The Auditor-General’s reports that we receive, without any report on the outturn and appropriation accounts, declare the audit reports questionable. This is largely because the Minister of Finance and National Planning is not willing to have his Government audited by delaying the release of the financial report.

Interruptions

Mr Lubinda: How do you expect those people at the Auditor-General’s Office to function?

Mr Chairperson, in some cases, as the Auditor-General had reported in the past, some of the institutions under the management of the Minister of Finance and National Planning do not even have books of accounts.

Hon. PF Members: Shame!

Mr Lubinda: The Auditor-General has gone, year after year, to audit institutions such as the University of Zambia and have drawn a blank because they do have books of accounts to audit and yet this House is expected, year after year, to continue appropriating public money to such institutions.

Sir, the Minister of Justice was responding to my colleague, the hon. Member of Parliament for Monze, Mr Mwiimbu, that there are some matters that are being followed up. How come matters that the Auditor-General has reported upon, where institutions do not keep books of accounts, have not been followed up? It is not the duty of the Auditor-General to ensure that institutions keep books of accounts. It is the duty of the Minister of Finance and National Planning who is responsible to this House on the expenditure of public resources.

Mr Chairperson, I would also like to mention that a lot of controlling officers employed by the Minister of Finance and National Planning are very unco-operative with the Auditor-General when it comes to auditing. They do not provide all the necessary information that the Auditor-General requires for her to make an informed opinion on the state of affairs of public funds held by those officers.

Sir, I would like to appeal to the Minister of Finance and National Planning to write a letter to all his controlling officers, informing them that it is mandatory for them, and that it is a requirement by the Constitution that they co-operate with the Auditor-General. Failure to do that renders the book that the hon. Minister of Justice was referring to as secondary, a very important book because of its revelations.

Sir, another area of weakness with regard to the Office of the Auditor-General is funding and I would like to use the figures in the Yellow Book for 2006 to illustrate what I am saying. In 2006, the Office of the Auditor-General applied for K18,995,937,488, including K3 billion that was supposed to come from donors. What the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning presented to this House was not the K18 billion. He did not request, on behalf of the Auditor-General, K18 billion. Instead, he requested K13 billion. The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, who is the ex-chequer of our money, unilaterally decided to decrease the application by the Auditor-General by K5 billion. To make matters worse, out of the K13 billion that was presented for appropriation in this House, K8,984,898,236 was for personal emoluments leaving a paltry K4 billion for operations. It is within that K4 billion that this House was expecting the Auditor-General to audit all Government institutions in 2006. How could they manage? Naturally, their own annual work plan had to be reduced drastically because they could not fit all that work in the K4 billion that, in the wisdom of the Ministry of Finance of National Planning, was adequate to audit their books.

Sir, at this point, I would like to commend the Norwegian Government and the Royal Netherlands Government for having done a commendable job in supporting the Office of the Auditor-General. The K3 billion referred to as having been allocated to the Auditor-General’s Office in 2006 was money from the Norwegian Embassy. It is these two governments that financed a very important programme in the Financial Restructuring and Institutional Development Programme (FRIDP) II through which a number of auditors at the Auditor-General’s Office were sensitised on financial audit manuals and quality control guidelines. It is through that funding that they developed performance and information technology audit manuals and it is through that funding that they got their very first laptops which were forty in number. Those forty, for nine provinces including headquarters, leave only four laptops per province and yet hon. Minister, Magande, comes here and proposes that we give the Auditor-General’s Office a mere K5 billion. I have to say that it is extremely sad that the agreement under which the Auditor-General’s Office was receiving so much support ended in 2006. There were no movements at all in our Government to try and renew that agreement and yet we do not have sufficient resources. Nor do we have sufficient political will to finance the Office of the Auditor-General. It goes without saying that you do not feed the bulldog that watches over you. I would like to appeal to the Norwegians to consider extending that agreement because the Auditor-General’s Office is performing a very important function in ensuring that the Zambian and donor money is not squandered.

Sir, in this year’s budget, there is K12 billion meant for personal emoluments and only K3.5 billion meant for audits and the Auditor-General intends to audit 242 institutions. This works out only to K14 million for audit. Can you compare that with the amount of money that is paid to private auditors and you expect the Auditor-General to perform wonders? In the circumstances, she cannot.

Sir, I would also like you to consider the fact that the Auditor-General’s Office in this year’s budget is only being provided with K76 million for provincial tours. Compare that with what Hon. Magande has allocated to his ministry for athletics and social activities which he has given an amount of K100 billion. Compare the K76 million meant for the Auditor-General to visit the whole country to the colossal amount of K873 million that hon. Minister, Magande, has provided in the budget in the budget for staff welfare at Ministry of Finance and National Planning.

Hon. PF Members: Tabomfwa.

Mr Lubinda: How do you plan like that?

Sir, the hon. Minister of Justice talked about low staffing. That is correct. Much as there has been an increase from 250 to 449 members of staff, those officers are still not adequate. I agree with you that we ought to do something to ensure that we increase the staffing levels at the Auditor-General’s Office because for a country as vast as this and a country in which corruption is so endemic, we require a high number of well qualified and more motivated auditors if we are going to get the culprits who are enriching themselves at the expense of the poor suffering Zambians.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Lubinda: I agree with you hon. Minister of Justice that we should find ways of ensuring that we increase the levels of staffing at the Auditor-General’s Office.

Further, the issue is not only the number of staff, but the conditions of service under which they operate. I would like you to compare the conditions of service under which the auditors and Auditor-General are operating with those obtaining in the private firms. Naturally, you will see that the Auditor-General’s Office is used only as a training ground and after people have acquired sufficient experience, they jump into the private sector. This is something the hon. Minister must invest in so that you will ensure that our money is protected and saved.

Sir, I would like to conclude by talking about the lack of follow up. The hon. Minister of Justice said that there is follow up. I would like to quote what the Auditor-General said when she was asked about follow up and audit in Zambia, and I quote:

‘In the past, there were lesser queries. There were punitive measures against those who abused public funds, very serious measures. Controlling officers were dismissed over things like that. I remember one controlling officer was dismissed in 1989 for drawing fuel from the Government even though he was being paid fuel allowance. But when you look at our later reports, things like that seem to be normal. All the culprits do is pay back the money and remain in service. Back then, if someone did a thing like that, they were immediately brought to book. There was sanity. You didn’t have a situation where someone merely issued instructions for money where there was no budget line. Before he approved any payment, the senior finance officer would look in the Yellow Book to see if there was any money for the institution making the request. Because of these systems, auditing was routine. Back then, the internal audit function was non-existent. We just had the external audit...’

These, hon. Minister of Justice, are the words of the Auditor-General herself. She is complaining that there is lack of follow up on the part of the Government that people are reported and because of the ethics of auditing, they do not mention names, but then the Government takes advantage and sweeps everything under the carpet. That is the reason I wish to commend Transparency International for doing one thing that the Zambians have been asking for all the time - to name for the sake of shaming the culprits. I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister of Justice if, indeed, there is anything in the book called ‘Show me the Money’, which should take anyone to court, he must be prepared to defend Transparency International because they are doing this for the good of mother Zambia - to name for the sake of shaming those culprits. I want to appeal to the hon. Minister that I shall be moving amendments in your ministry to ensure that money is allocated where it shall have a bigger meaning for the Zambian people.

Sir, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Shakafuswa): Thank you very much, Mr Chairman, for allowing me to debate on this very important vote.

I think the importance of the Office of the Auditor-General cannot be under stated and I hope that, in this House, people understand audit functions and what allocations are allocated to audits. I think people when come to this House and debate so passionately, they should do so from a position of meaningingfulness not just barking unnecessarily.

Hon. PF. Members: Aah!

The Deputy Chairman: Order!

Mr Shakafuswa: No, I will not take that.

The Deputy Chairman: Order! That is why the Chair is here to give guidance. As I stated in the notes that I read, let us aim at convincing the other people because if you become confrontational, you will go in different directions. The idea is to come together. The Chair does not really take the use of the word ‘barking’ lightly. Can the hon. Deputy Minister withdraw it and, please, continue.

Interruptions.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Can the hon. Minister, please, withdraw that word.

Mr Shakafuswa: I do not know how you understood it. A tree, when you …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon Minister, you can see that there is a difference in understanding. Therefore, you withdraw that word.

Mr Shakafuswa: Mr Chairman, since there is a difference in understanding, I withdraw it and apologise to those who did not understand it.

Mr Chairman, you cannot compare Government audit with that of an audit firm which is in private practice because the bulk of the fee depends on the time spent by an auditor on a job. That is actually charged to that audit work. When auditing, the charges will be based on the time spent.

The Government auditors do not charge any audit fee to their clients when they go in the field. Therefore, when compared, you will find that there are different parameters in the costs between a private audit and a Government audit and that has to be understood.

Mr Chairman, when you look at all these things that people are talking about, you will note that it is a charge on the national resources that they are talking about. I would also like to see people who are talking passionately come and tell us how best we can improve as practically as possible because some people enjoy talking to the gallery.

Interruptions

Mr Shakafuswa: However, as a ministry we are very open and if someone in this House feels like debating, instead of debating from his chair, he should come to our ministry and say, “Gentlemen, we can raise so much money within the legal framework if we did a, b, c, and d.” In that way, we will be able to do that because there is no Government that wants to be unpopular by not delivering services when it can afford.

Hon. PF Members interjected.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

We cannot debate like that. When Hon. Lubinda was debating, the House was quite and that is proper. So, when the hon. Minister is debating, let us also give him chance. If you have something to say, you indicate. That is why we are debating. Please, let us be quiet and listen to the person on the Floor.

Can you, please, continue.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shakafuswa: Mr Chairman, we know that when we come to this House, we meet people from different backgrounds and that matters. Therefore, if you did not understand issues that were in your home even when you were told that only your father was right and that your mother could not contribute, it is a clear indication that you come from a broken home. Some of us come from homes where you have to listen and if you have a better idea, you stand and debate. Why are you hiding yourselves and debating while seated?

Mr Chairman, one thing that someone ought to know – one who is not in a corporate world - is that at the end of the year, a financial statement - like here in Zambia - has to incorporate December as well. You will find that usually the delay is that you have to look at the full financial year such that as you are doing your report, you have to look at the activities of the last report year.

Interruptions

Mr Shakafuswa: I have done audit work as an auditor ...

Mr Kambwili: So what?

Mr Shakafuswa: … and, therefore, you cannot tell me of any company where, by the end of the financial year, their reports are ready. That is not possible because they take time balancing the balance sheets and doing other finance related issues. Even when we went to audit big corporate companies like the Bank of Zambia and Barclays Bank, their financial statements are never tabled in time because of the same reason. So, you can see that it takes time because you have to make follow ups here and there.

Mr Chairman, someone who enjoys talking will think that someone is trying to hide something, but it is prudent to find out what is there so that when you talk, you talk from a position of understanding, not just from a position of trying to make people happy there and then. We do not want to appease one section of the society.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shakafuswa: As a Government …

Mr Lubinda: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Lubinda: Sir, I am very sorry to my colleague for disturbing his debate, but is he in order to misinform this House, and the nation out there, that anyone here who proposes that the financial report that the Ministry of Finance and National Planning be presented before the end of the year without him, making reference to the provision in the Constitution that states that the financial report of the Ministry of Finance and National Planning shall be laid on the Table nine months after the end of the year or not that actual year?

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning, can you take that point of order into account as you debate.

Can you, please, continue.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shakafuswa: Mr Chairman, for someone to insinuate that the Ministry of Finance and National Planning does not allow Government ministries and departments to be audited is very misleading and shows a lack of political vision. If there is one thing that the ministry would want to do, and looking at the measures that the Minister of Finance and National Planning has put in place to make sure that public money is secure, people should give us kudos. The money that the Ministry of Finance and National Planning handles does not belong to the ministry, but to the people of Zambia.

Therefore, the only way that we can be seen to be doing a good job is by making sure that monies for the people of Zambia are safe. Do not try to talk about the so-called cleanliness in the Public Service where not only civil servants, but politicians also want to have a hand in public money. In certain instances, you will find that some parties even go to the pulpit preaching that they do not want certain things to be talked about because history has it that they also plundered the public resources.

Hon. Government Members: Shame!

Mr Shakafuswa: As has been observed, our Government is number one to put it on record that whoever plundered the Republic’s resources has to be brought to book. The position of the Auditor-General is very important in our operations and if you want to talk politics, we can talk about them.

Interruptions

Mr Shakafuswa: As for those out there who think that there are no serious measures put in place and that they are going to be protected by this and that, those who touched public funds will be retired in the public interest and then they will be going to court from their homes. If somebody does not take this seriously, because they are not part and parcel of that good search, we will pin them down since they think that the search is dirty. It is just dirty in their minds, not for somebody who is straight thinking.

We stand as a Government and we are going to give the Auditor-General our support not only in that, but also the general operations as an external auditor. We are ensuring that finances and financial records within all the ministries are up to date because as the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, we are the ones who are in charge of the accountants doing day to day operations. The Auditor-General comes after our internal auditors and looks at what is happening on the ground.

In other words, what we are doing is streamlining and at the end of the day, we should also come and say that is the change. The office of the Auditor-General is in charge of all the general revenues just like in education or health. We do not say that only the hon. Minister decides what to give the Auditor-General. What happens is that the hon. Minister and his staff will look at what they are able to raise and, from that, they start sharing the cake and say this can happen.

I enjoy looking at people who stand here and say I will make amendments on the Floor of the House since they understand some of the things that we are trying to attend to with the monies that we are asking Parliament to give us. It is the same thing about improving record keeping while  - I do not know which school they went to- recreation for your workers goes a long way towards adding to the productivity of your staff.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shakafuswa: You know that! That is why there is even this Lets Play today. It is because we know that it is going to add to productivity.

Interruptions

Hon. Government Members: Go on!

Mr Shakafuswa: I do not get cowed by – I will hammer you and you will regret it.

Laughter

Mr Shakafuswa: You know déclassé …

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hon. Members, really, when the Chair looks left and right, sometimes it amazes me how we, hon. Members, refuse to follow very simple orders. Really, it is no use engaging somebody who is on the Floor. You, obviously, know that if you do that the chances are that you will distract the attention of the person who is speaking and he will get lost. Now, we are trying to avoid that kind of doing business. So, can we, please, be quiet. If we feel very strongly about it, you will be given the opportunity to rebut what he is saying if you have to.

Can you, please, continue.

Mr Shakafuswa: The only consolation I have got is that the present Auditor-General was Secretary to the Treasury at the Ministry of Finance and National Planning and had the ability to look at the resources and knew where to get them. I know that, in her time, when she was Secretary to the Treasury- I hope she can tell me that there were no complaints in this country. From her background, we will expect her to understand how the Government operates and how the meagre resources we have got are applied to this nation.

I am going to, actually, appeal to this House. Those who feel they can wait for five years for their grand ideas- do not be mistaken- we have also got brilliant brains. That is why our budget- the professionals, not the politicians- the politician can come up with this- the professionals have given good words to our budget. These guys who are lesser professionals can say whatever they want, but we have got a good budget and we have got to implement it.

Come 2011, Zambia will be smiling because we might catch up with the inadequacies of some of the people who are sitting here who made all these loopholes that are making us look inadequate today. They were busy. Some of them even used stolen money to come back to this House. They used money which was being given to them by those who plundered. They accepted that money and used it for campaigns to come and talk to us. Shame on you!

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr L. J. Mulenga (Kwacha): I thank you so much …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hammer now!

Mr L. J. Mulenga: … for according me this opportunity to contribute on this vote.

Sir, what we need to look at and realise in this life is that you cannot give a servant K100,000 and tell him to account for K400 million. It is impossible!

Mr Shakafuswa left the Chamber.

Mr Kambwili: Ikala panshi, iwe wiya!

Hon. PF Members: Yes!

Mr L. J. Mulenga: That is where we are going wrong in the nation.

Hon. Government Members: Address the Chair!

Hon. PF Members: Go on!

Hon. PF Members: Hammer!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! You know we are really distracting the attention of the person debating. Just by way of guidance, when somebody is speaking, whether they are looking left or right, as long as the talking, that is to the Chair. I think that should not bother hon. Members.

Can you, please, continue.

Hon. PF Members: Hammer!

Mr L. J. Mulenga: Mr Chairperson, you cannot give someone K100,000 and ask him to account for K400 million. It is impossible. It is a fallacy. It is a lie! This Government must pay our workers well.

Hon. PF Members: Tell them!

Mr L. J. Mulenga: If they are not paid well, we can talk about the budget here, but the bottom line is money. That is all!

Interruptions

Mr L. J. Mulenga: I would like this Government to listen. We need money. We can institute all the best internal controls, but as long as there is no money, forget it. They would be compromised. I implore this Government …

Dr Chituwo: On a point of order, Sir.

Ms Njapau: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised. Now, there are two of you asking, but I only need one. The hon. Minister of Science and Technology.

Dr Chituwo: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to raise a point of order. Is the hon. Member on the Floor in order to debate in such a manner that …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr D. Mwila: Yes!

Dr Chituwo: Iwe, quiet, Mwila iwe!

Laughter

Dr Chituwo: Is he in order? From the manner in which he is debating, I am worried that soon he may collapse …

Laughter

Dr Chituwo: … and we have no facilities to resuscitate him. Is he in order, Sir?

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hon. Members, we have got a long agenda on our programme or whatever. That point of order compels me to repeat what I had said when I was reading the notes before the hon. Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda) begun his speech. Let me repeat.

Furthermore, I appeal to hon. Members to be calm in their debates …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: … and avoid raising emotions which may …

Mr Kambwili: But Jonas mwachimuleka!

The Deputy Chairperson: … tend to slow down the pace of passing the budget.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: The debate should be dignified …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

… and should avoid confrontation. Otherwise, it degenerates the House and compromises its honoured dignity and thereby inciting unjustified negative comments from the press and public. This is by way of guidance. If we follow what the Chair is guiding, we will have no problem.

 Can the hon. Member, please, continue.

Hon. PF Members: Hammer!

Mr L. J. Mulenga: I thank you, Sir, for your guidance.

What we are demanding in this nation is that money collected from the people of Zambia is accounted for. This is why I demand that the Auditor-General’s Office must be empowered to make sure that people collect money. They do not misappropriate money. We are not going to allow that. We want every ngwee to be accounted for in this nation.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr L. J. Mulenga: We do not want you to come and tell us K3 trillion is gone. No! We will not accept that. We want money to be accounted for correctly to the last ngwee. It is the people’s money.

You must understand that it is people’s money. The Constitution tells this Government what to do. They know what they need to do. They formulate policies. They know that at the end of the day, they do estimates written by themselves, but on behalf of the Zambian people. I would like to demand that all constitutions must be given to the Zambian people. We do not want a situation where people do not know anything. You cannot govern a nation without a constitution. They must understand that. They need to know what their rights are- what they are- it is important.

I am not criticising for nothing …

Hon. PF Members: Hammer!

Mr L. J. Mulenga: I am saying Zambia must be for Zambians. We …

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr L. J. Mulenga: … do not need the Chinese. We do not need people to come into this country. You like it when you say they have contributed 77.5 per cent to the GDP. Who is enjoying that money? Tell me! Who is enjoying that money?

Hon. PF Members: Bauze!{mospagebreak}

Mr Mwaanga: On a point of order, Sir,

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwaanga: Mr Chairperson, I would like to raise a serious point of order. You guided the House not very long ago in a written statement that this is not a general debate. Is the hon. Member of Parliament debating on the Floor in order to begin speaking generally and using this as a cross-country debate and talking about the Chinese who are not even part of the Auditor-General’s Report?

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Member debating, please, take that point of order into account as you debate and be focused.

Can you, please, continue.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr L. J. Mulenga: Thank you very much for your guidance. My voice is high and that is how I was born.

Laughter

Mr L. J. Mulenga: My voice is loud. What we are talking about in this House is the Auditor-General’s Office. That institute controls how our public money is used. We should empower this office. They do not need one vehicle. This office needs enough vehicles so that they can reach every corner of this nation.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr L. J. Mulenga: Sir, we want our money to be accounted for correctly and so should be disbursements. This Government should empower the Auditor-General’s Office because it is very important. The Government should go out there and check on everything that is happening so that when they make reports to this House, we should know exactly what they are talking about. I do not agree with the idea of allocating the Auditor-General’s Office with K1 million and be open to corruption. We should empower this office by allocating them with enough money. Otherwise, all the reports that will come to this House will be fake.

Interruptions

Mr L. J. Mulenga: I am saying so because an auditor is a normal person like anyone of us in this House.

Mr Daka: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Daka: Mr Chairperson, is my cousin in order to use unparliamentary language like ‘fake’ in this House when he was with me last night and he know what we were doing?

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Members, the two know what they were doing and I will allow the hon. Member to continue.

Laughter

Mr L. J. Mulenga: Thank very much for your guidance. It is nice he has said that we were together last night. He is my brother-in-law…

Hon. Members: What were you doing?

Mr L. J. Mulenga: …. and we were not doing anything.

Laughter

Mr L. J. Mulenga: Sir, the fact of the matter is that we should get our officers…

Mr Kambwili: Well paid!

Mr L. J. Mulenga:… well paid. That is all we want. The Government should equip them so that they can execute their duties.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Defence (Mr Mpombo): Mr Chairperson, I am greatly indebted to all hon. Members who have debated. I really appreciate the unity of purpose that has been exhibited.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mpombo: Sir, as a Government, we have taken note of various important issues that have been raised. I can assure you that we will take necessary measures to ensure that the issues of streamlining and strengthening the office of the Auditor-General and the issues pertaining to transport and the operational problems that affect them are done. I further want to assure the hon. Members in this House that the Government does not intend to intrude in the affairs of the Auditor-General. We have given them permission or leeway to perform their duties without any Government interference. Therefore, it will not be right to say that the Government is actually controlling the operations of the Auditor-General’s Office. On the contrary, we are not.

Mr Chairperson, Hon. Lubinda raised the question of some donor countries giving us money to enhance the operations of the Auditor-General’s Office. That is a vivid manifestation of the support which the Government has approved from the international community. It is the confidence that the Government has that we are on the right track, hence this support. We are certainly not going to create problems.

Mr Chairperson, the last point is on the question of Transparency International. Somebody mentioned something on that particular issue. I want to state that the Government will not succumb to the dictates of Transparency International. We have our own way of doing things.

Interruptions

Mr Mpombo: Therefore, as a Government, we cannot follow what they are saying. If you look at one of their books, they have the guts to comment on issues that are before the courts. They can even give information when they know that the issues are before the court. As a Government, we will not allow that.

Sir, in conclusion, I am profoundly touched by the support that has been given to this vote.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 07/01 – (Office of the Auditor General – Headquarters – K21,950,337,106)

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, could I find out from His Honour the Vice-President whether he would be able to provide a description of all the different audits that are referred to only by number so that as the legislature approving this budget, we will be able to follow up and see whether, indeed, the money that was assigned was utilised to every specific institution for which we are allocating money today.

The Deputy Chairperson: Mr Lubinda, which programme or item are you at?

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, I am afraid I cannot name them one by one because it is a long list of audits and all of them are just written ‘audit of client number’ without specifying in which they are. Could he put an addendum to this to explain which institutions shall be involved?

The Minister of finance and National Planning (Mr Magande): Mr Chairperson, I was listening to the debate and Hon. Lubinda was very articulate on the operations of the Auditor-General and the general auditing functions. I thought that this is part of the technology and terminology which the Auditor-General uses, which Hon. Lubinda has just been supporting. Surprisingly, he is now asking for details. I want him to take a list of the numbers, which are here. When we report next, we will report on the numbers and we will know how much we spent on each number. This is a terminology from the Auditor-General’s Office.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda: Sir, I do not think we should turn this House into a battlefront. The Auditor-General’s Office numbers all Government institutions in accordance with the numbers that are provided herein. All I am asking for, from the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, is an addendum, which can be understood by all of us. I do not think this a matter of a battle at all. Could he please provide to this House an addendum, which shows what Client 1103 represents so that all of us know. It is as easy as that.

Mr Magande: Mr Chairperson, we do not have those details here. According to the budgeting which we did, those numbers are for operations. What we have here are for budgeting purposes. That is why I am saying that if there was client 5017, let us look at the estimates on that client so that when we report in the financial report, we are going to indicate ‘Client 5017’.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

VOTE 07/01 Office of the Auditor-General – Headquarters – K30,979,454,402)

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Chairperson, I would like to seek clarification on page 21, Programme 7 – K440,795,000, Programme 8 - K683,387,500, Programme 9 – K1,255,988,625 and Programme 10 – K415,926,250. Last year, there were no funds allocated to these programmes. How were we operating without funds and why is this vote appearing here?

Mr Mpombo: Mr Chairperson, that provision refers to a new activity.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 07/01 ordered to stand par of the Estimates.

VOTE 07/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 07/03 ordered to stand part for the Estimate.

VOTE 07/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 07/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 07/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 07/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 07/08 – (Office of the Auditor-General – Mansa Provincial Office – K991,375,223).

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 2, Activity 01 – Office Administration – K190,188,676. However, there was a saving of K10,000,000 in 2006. May I find out from the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning what necessitated the saving of K10,000,000 when they allocated K91,000,000 and yet, you are allocating K190,000,000 this year. What was the reason for the saving?

Mr Mpombo: Mr Chairperson, the saving of K10,000,000 was due to reduced operations.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 07/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 07/10 - (Office of the Auditor-General – Mongu Provincial Office – K989,044,803).

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Page 37, Programme 7, Activity 15 – Audit of Client 37001. I would like to find out whether the Auditor-General audited 37001 clients.

Mr Mpombo: Mr Chairperson, the number referred to is a client number. Even ministries like Ministry of Home Affairs may be given numbers like 3712 as a client. Therefore, those numbers are specifically referring to that.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 07/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 08 – (Cabinet Office – Office of the President – K107,376,076,447).

The Minister of Defence (Mr Mpombo): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for the opportunity given to me to present the Cabinet Office Budget for 2007.

Cabinet Office is the highest administrative office in the Civil Service responsible for the co-ordinating the effective implementation of Government policies, systems and procedures and the monitoring and evaluation of the overall performance of the Public Service for the efficient administration of Government business. Cabinet Office comprises the following:

(a) Office of the Secretary to the Cabinet supported by the two Deputy Secretaries to the Cabinet responsible for Administration, and Finance and Economic Development;

(b) Administration Division;

(c) Management Development Division;

(d) Policy Analysis and Co-ordination Division;

(e) Gender in Development Division; and

(f) Office of the Former Presidents.

From the foregoing, it can be envisaged that responsibilities for Cabinet Office cut across most of the Government ministries and institutions in relation to supervision and influencing the policy implementation process in Government. It is the policy centre for Government administration and management.

Mr Chairperson, in order to effectively fulfill its mandate, Cabinet Office has developed a mission statement incorporating and summarising all responsibilities of the various divisions. The mission statement through which Cabinet Office intends to achieve its objective is as follows:

‘To co-ordinate the formulation and implementation of Government policies, programmes, systems and procedures; monitor and evaluate the overall performance of the Public Service for the efficient and effective management of Government business.’

The Office of the Secretary to the Cabinet is responsible for ensuring that Cabinet Office achieves the above mentioned statement.

Mr Chairperson, hon. Members may wish to know that the Five-year Strategic Plan for Cabinet Office for the period 2001−2005 was revised in 2005, and that resulted in development of the 2006−2010 Strategic Plan. Accordingly, the 2007 annual budget and 2007−2009 MTEF for Cabinet Office were prepared on the basis of revised Five-year Strategic Plan of 2006 to 2010.

In the context of the Public Service Reform Programme (PSRP), and the Fifth National Development Plan (FNDP), Cabinet Office seeks to improve delivery of public service with regard to policy formulation, implementation and interpretation, as well as monitoring and evaluation. This will be achieved through the implementation of the objectives as reflected in the Cabinet Office 2006−2010 Strategic Plan. The objectives are operationalised through well designed departmental work plans in order to enhance the delivery of public services.

Mr Chairperson, the status of Cabinet Office and its functions are derived from the Constitution of the Republic of Zambia. Cabinet Office operates directly under the Office of the President of the Republic of Zambia. Article 50 of the Constitution stipulates the functions of Cabinet Office whereas Article 53 (2) stipulates the functions and responsibility of the Secretary to the Cabinet. The Article provides that:

‘The Secretary shall:

(a) be the head of the Public Service and shall be responsible for the President for securing general efficiency of the Public Service;

(b) have charge of Cabinet Office and be responsible in accordance to the instructions given to him by the President, for arranging the business for, and keeping the minutes of the Cabinet and for conveying decisions made in Cabinet to the appropriate authorities; and

(c) have such other functions as may be prescribed by or under an Act of Parliament or as the President may direct.’

It is evident, Mr Chairperson, that from the aforementioned provisions in the Constitution, the Secretary to the Cabinet has central co-ordinating responsibilities. These include the co-ordination of effective implementation of Government policies, systems and procedures, monitoring and evaluation of the overall performance of the public service for the efficient administration of Government.

In addition, Cabinet Office takes responsibility for ad-hoc commissions and new functions that may not have been allocated to any ministry, and it also considers appeals and arbitrates between contending ministries and agencies.

Sir, Cabinet Office may be divided as follows:

Office of the Secretary to the Cabinet

The Office the Secretary to the Cabinet provides support to the Secretary to the Cabinet and has two deputies in their executive management of Government business. It also plays an important role in articulating Government policies and implementation modalities in order to secure the general efficiency of the Public Service.

Administration Division

The Administration Division is responsible for the overall management of Cabinet Office by providing adequate human, financial, material and other resources to the Office of the Secretary to the Cabinet and all the other divisions in Cabinet Office, in line with their operational requirements. In addition, the division facilitates the conduct of State functions, and guides provincial and district administration as well as the rest of the public sector, on policy interpretation and implementation.

Sir, the Government has, in 2007, decided to undertake an inquiry into the salaries, salary scales and conditions of service for the Public Service. The estimates of expenditure for the commission of inquiry which will undertake the above assignment are, therefore, a cost under the State Functions Vote at Cabinet Office is responsible for the management and co-ordination of commissions of inquiry, among other activities. The budget estimates for the commission of inquiry into the salaries, salary scales and conditions of service in the Public Service have, therefore, been provided for in the Cabinet Office 2007 Budget.

Further, the Government procured a new Presidential aircraft during the 2006 Financial Year, in order to facilitate local presidential travel. The maintenance of the aircraft is under the jurisdiction of the Office of the President, Special Division. However, Cabinet Office is responsible for the sourcing of funds for the servicing and maintenance of the two presidential aircraft. Accordingly, the budget estimates for these purposes have been provided for under the Cabinet Office Vote.

Management Development Division

Mr Chairperson, the Management Development Division is responsible to the Secretary to the Cabinet for providing internal management consultancy services to all Government ministries/institutions. Specifically, Management Development Division facilitates the development/review of strategic plans, organisational structures and staffing levels, job descriptions, organisational and individual work plans and performance appraisal systems.

The Management Development Division is currently charged with overall responsibility of spearheading the implementation of the Public Service Reform Programme aimed at improving quality service delivery, efficiency and cost-effectiveness to the people of Zambia.

In that regard, the division has, in 2007, planned to facilitate the adaptation of generic strategic plans and organisation structures for district administration and local authorities, to the requirement of each district in the context of the National Decentralisation Policy. The Management Development Division will also facilitate the development of job descriptions for these institutions.

In addition, Mr Chairperson, the Management Development Division has planned to facilitate the development and implementation of citizen charters aimed at facilitating participation of the general public and other stakeholders in establishing and monitoring implementation of performance standards in Government ministries/institutions.

Sir, Government officially launched the Public Service Management (PSM) component of the Public Service Reform Programme on 22nd November, 2006. The main objective of the PSM is to enhance service delivery by improving management systems in the Public Service. This is intended to be achieved through the implementation of the four sub-components of the PSM, namely, rightsizing, pay reform, service delivery improvement and payroll management and establishment control. The support has been provided by the Department for International Development (DFID), the Swedish International Development Agency (SIDA) and the International Development Agency (IDA).

The Management Development Division will co-ordinate the implementation of the Public Service Management component through the Public Service Management Project Implementation Unit as contained in the detailed Activity Based Budget (ABB) for 2007.

Policy Analysis and Co-ordination Division

Mr Chairperson, the Policy Analysis and Co-ordination (PAC) Division is responsible for:

(a) The co-ordination of policies and programmes of line ministries to ensure that they are compatible with each other and the overall policy of the Government;

(b) recording Cabinet proceedings, writing minutes of meetings and drafting letters conveying decisions to line ministries for implementation;

(c) analysing policy proposals for consideration by Cabinet in order to:

(i) assess their consistency with Government policy and the priorities of the ruling party;

(ii) ensure that they are well written and researched and that, where this is required, adequate consultation with other concerned Government ministries/departments has taken place; and

(iii) provide Cabinet with an independent and analytical assessment of proposals from national, as opposed to ministerial, points of view;

(d) co-ordinating and facilitating the implementation of Cabinet decisions; and

(e) monitoring and evaluating the implementation of Cabinet decisions.
In order to execute the above responsibilities, the Policy Analysis and Co-ordination Division has planned to undertake various activities, as contained in this year’s ABB, under the auspices of the following programmes:

(i) Cabinet and Cabinet Committee meetings;

(ii) Management of the policy process;

(iii) Policy analysis;

(iv) Strengthening of the Cabinet documentation system;

(v) Revision of the Cabinet Handbook and the Guide to Writing National Policy Documents; and

(vi) Monitoring and evaluation of Cabinet decisions.

Gender in Development Division

The Gender in Development Division (GIDD) is responsible for co-ordinating the implementation of the National Gender Policy, which was approved by Cabinet in March, 2000. The Division facilitates research and resource mobilisation for the implementation of National Gender Policy and development programmes. GIDD is also charged with the task of liaising and networking at national, regional and international levels.

It further monitors and evaluates the implementation of policies and programmes to ensure gender responsive development.

The Government, Mr Chairman, has designed policy interventions in order to:

(a) Redress the problems associated with poverty and particularly women’s poor access to and control of productive resources;

(b) address the issues and concerns raised on culture, family and socialisation;

(c) reduce in the gender imbalances and inadequacies in the provision of education, health, water and sanitation, governance and social protection sectors;

(d) reduce the gender imbalances in the agricultural, land, science, technology, commerce, trade, industry, energy, housing, tourism, natural resources, labour, employment and sectors;

(e) redress the gender imbalances which arise as a result of limited or no access to media, stereotype portrayal of women and men’s images and limited gender analysis skills among most media personnel; and

(f) address the gender issues related to women’s poor participation in decision making and low representation in politics and at senior executive level in various institutions.

The Gender in Development Division has, therefore, planned to undertake various activities, as contained in the 2007 activity based budgeting, through the following programmes:

(i) Mainstreaming gender into all sector policies;

(ii) stakeholder capacity building in order to improve gender analytical skills and techniques in the process of mainstreaming gender in development plans, programmes and projects;

(iii) monitoring and evaluation of the implementation of gender and development programmes;

(iv) disseminating information on gender; and

(v) reviewing customary and statutory laws in relation to international practices in collaboration with the Law Development Commission.

Mr Chairman, the Office of the Former Presidents was established in 1993 through Act No. 40 of 1993. The Act provides for the pension and other retirement benefits of former Presidents of the Republic of Zambia, and also for matters connected with or incidental to the foregoing. Cabinet Office provides the required administrative support and related services in line with the provisions of the Act.

The various activities in the Activity Based Budget for 2007 and, under the Office of Former Presidents have been budgeted for in conformity with the provisions of the Former Presidents Act.

Mr Chairman, the Government has decided to be proactive in facilitating the provisions of Act No. 40 of 1993 on the Former Presidents. In that regard, the Government will not wait until a serving President leaves office before it starts constructing a house for him or her. This august House will note, therefore, that in this year’s budget for the Ministry of Works and Supply, there are specific provisions for the completion of the First President’s house, commencement of the construction of the Second President’s house as well as preparation for the construction of the current President’s house.

Mr Chairman, the operations of the Task Force on Corruption will, in 2007, continue to be funded from the budget line for Cabinet Office Headquarters. The operational funds for the Task Force are provided by the Ministry of Finance and National Planning under the budget line for Cabinet Office, which processes all its payments.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Mr Chairman, I stand to contribute to the debate on State Functions, particularly, Africa Freedom Day.

Mr Chairman, you will agree with me that last year, they had budgeted for K454 million and this year it is K1.2 billion and that increase is about 300 per cent. Mr Chairman, I would like to know why we should increase on a function which will only be there for one day …

The Chairman: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Chairman, when business was suspended, I was questioning the allocation of K1.2 billion for Africa Freedom Day.

Mr Chairman, I was saying that Africa Freedom Day is a one-day celebration and the increase of 300 per cent is just too much in that we have a lot of problems which the people in our constituencies are facing.

Mr Chairman, you may be aware that during the Africa Freedom Day celebrations, when you go to State House, and look at the people invited to that function, the majority of them are MMD cadres. We are questioning. Are we increasing this figure from K454 million to K1.2 billion in order to feed the cadres at State House?

Mr Chairman, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning must explain to this House because the increase is just too much. He must tell us whether the tax payer’s money should be spent on the cadres for one lunch. In our constituencies, patients are sleeping on the floor because there are no beds and blankets. I came from my constituency yesterday and there is no medicine and that is unacceptable. This Government must be serious with its priorities. We are not saying that these celebrations should not be there. All that we are saying is that the increase is just too much. You cannot spend K1.2 billion in one day. The hon. Minister will have to tell us the criteria they used.

Mr Chairman, there are no desks in schools and our pupils are sitting on the floor. We do not have teachers, but you channel the money to Africa Freedom Day. It is unacceptable. We have no nurses and, as such, patients are being attended to by cleaners and guards.

Hon. Opposition Member: Shame!

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Chairman, we have to look at the priorities. If their priority is to feed the cadres, let them go ahead. All what we are doing is to advise, and advice can be taken or thrown out. It is entirely up to them. The roads are bad and they have never worked on them for the last seven years, and now, they have increased the allocation from K454 million to K1.2 billion. It is unacceptable and I sympathise with the hon. Minister of Works and Supply. How is he going to work this year?

Hon. Opposition Member: When they please the cadres.

Mr D. Mwila: I sympathise with the hon. Minister of Health, whether she will manage to recruit the 1,900 nurses which she mentioned, if the money is going to State House, specifically to feed cadres. When you go there the Ambassadors and High Commissioners who are invited are not even free. They cannot even take a drink because of the cadres and that is unacceptable.

Hon. Opposition Member: Shame!

Mr D. Mwila: That is unacceptable. The Government knows that teachers get K700,000 per month and that they cannot manage to have three meals in a day, but they channel the money to State House. If you look at their housing allowance, do you expect a teacher with K100,000 to manage to pay for rent? They know, but they pretend as if they do not know. When you talk about these matters, they say you are cheating.

Hon. Opposition Member: Too bad.

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Chairman, after the conclusion of the negotiations, we will come to this House. You are going to discover that the teachers will not get an increment of more than K200,000. Where are we heading as a country? Is that our priority? How can there be an K800 million increment on a one-day celebration? I want to repeat the issue of drugs. If this Government can fail to buy panadol, then where are we heading to? What about malaria drug? Are they going to manage to buy them? People are insulting us in the constituencies as if it is us who are not providing medicines, and yet, they are there – comfortable!

Hon. Opposition Member: Sitting and enjoying.

Mr D. Mwila: We are here to talk on behalf of the people in the constituencies who are suffering. Miners working underground are paying tax which is going to State House to feed cadres. That is unacceptable.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr D. Mwila: That is unacceptable…

Mr Kambwili: Nakawala!

Mr D. Mwila: …and I have no apology to make. They have to look at the priorities. Look at the inspectors in the mines. That is why we have a lot of accidents. To begin with, I expected that…

Mr Mabenga: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mabenga: Mr Chairman, I rise on a very serious point of order. Is it in order for the hon. Member to talk about the feeding of cadres when he, himself, is a cadre who has just moved from MMD for convenience’s sake? Is he order?

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Well, some of these points of order are very difficult for the Chair to make a ruling. All the same, can the hon. Member on the Floor, please, continue.

Laughter

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Chairman, I was saying that the money must be channelled to the needy areas. Even those who are raising points of order know that what I am talking about is true. In hospitals, there no drugs, bed sheets, blankets, beds, nurses, teachers …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Well, the Chair wanted to give time to the hon. Member debating to say what he wanted to and cover as much as he could, except that I would like to remind hon. Members that one of the rules we have here is that of repetition. If you can veer off now and come to the other things.

Mr D. Mwila: I was emphasising the point …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Do not debate that issue again. Just come to the point as advised.

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Chairman, I also want to talk about Programme 2, Activity 05 – Salaries Commission of Inquiry – K6,020,229,567. They have budgeted this amount just to go round and find out how much our teachers and civil servants are getting. If you look at last year’s budget there was no allocation. So, you would wonder where that K6,020,229,567 will go. I will need a reaction from the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to explain because, maybe, I do not understand how this money is going to be used.

Mr Chairman, the Government knows how much our people get, and there is no need for people to go round and find out how much our people are getting. It is straight forward. That K6,020,229,567 should be given to needy areas. So, what I have said is that there is need for the Government to channel those monies to more needy areas than party cadres and the Administrative Commission of Inquiry. I know when I talk about cadres, you feel offended.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

Dr Chishimba (Kasama Central): Mr Chairman, let me begin by stating that Cabinet is very important in the Republic of Zambia, in the sense that it is an institution which I may consider to be a fulcrum in terms of building the confidence in the people on matters of public policy.

Mr Chairman, I have actually also noticed that under Cabinet office, we have the Office of former Presidents. There are, of course, some allocations that are made to them in order to continue playing a vital role in the governance of this nation in their retirement. What I want to begin by submitting is that whatever allocations are made to the Office of the former Presidents, they are, indeed, in line with the law. The culture which we have seen in this country, that of leaders taking allocations for former Presidents to be like their individual allocations, is uncalled for.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishimba: These are constitutional offices. When I say constitutional, I am just trying to say that they are established, of course, by law and what we expect is to make sure that whatever allocations that are due to them, are not politicised or taken as though it was an individual providing those resources. We should depoliticise the offices of former presidents so that they can retire and continue to enjoy life in their retirement.

Mr Chairman, I have always, actually, submitted in this House that we must realise that every Government and, when I talk about Government, I am talking about leaders - any kind of leaderships that assumes office is ephemeral, which means, it is temporary. There is no one, indeed, there is no leadership, there is no regime whatsoever which shall be in power permanently and things change.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishimba: That is one thing which we must always remember and keep on our minds as we govern the nation. So, what we must always try to do is to ensure that we govern according to the laws of this country. We govern this nation in accordance with what the people of Zambia have decided they want. That is in line with what the Constitution states. Therefore, I must emphasise that come 2011, when President Mwanawasa retires, we expect him to retire in peace. Whoever will take over the Government at that stage should not politicise the office of the third former President. That is what must always be on our minds when we decide or whenever we make any statements or utterances as leaders. That is very important.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to borrow the words of Mr Michael Sata who said there was need for us to make sure that we enforced a new order where there is sanity.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishimba: In fact, Mr Hichilema said that we needed to bring dignity into Zambian politics. To me, those are wise words which we must borrow and ensure that we internalise them in everything that we do. We should always remember that the only kingdom which is permanent is that of God. Otherwise, all other kingdoms on earth, and under sun, are temporary. We are mortal people. Therefore, as we govern, that is what we must always keep on our minds and accord the dignity which the former Presidents deserve.

Sir, one of the papers in Namibia reported an instance where the current President of that country was travelling to some place. However, when he heard that the motorcade of the former President, Sam Nujoma, was on coming, he ordered his motorcade to stop to let him pass. From there, what we see is a culture where we accord respect to people who have governed countries in Africa. I think Africa must learn. We should always make sure that we make an indelible mark when given the opportunity to govern.

Mr Chairperson, there is a culture where, when we are not leadership, we say something, and when we assume leadership, in as far governance is concerned, we change statements and say something else. We change statements and probably go to what we said earlier. This, indeed, must stop and we must ensure that we govern this country according to the laws that are provided.

Mr Kambwili: Tetamashimba uleumfwa, niwe chameleon!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Those comments, which you pass while seated, are the kind which disturb the flow of the debate. Can we please put a stop to that.

May the hon. Member continue, please.

Dr Chishimba: Mr Chairperson, in my earlier remarks, I said Cabinet Office was a vehicle through which every regime delivers. It is an institution which shapes public policies in order to ensure that the people of Zambia accrue maximum benefits or get the maximum benefits from the programmes that any Government implements for the benefit of the people.

Sir, I will, therefore, look at some of the departments that are under this very important vote. I will start with Gender in Development Department. I have noticed that there is a provision under Programme 7 ─ Gender Mainstreaming into Macro Policies and Programmes ─ K279,903,716. It is sad that whilst more resources are required to implement activities that are going to have a direct impact in so far as mainstreaming is concerned, it has not actually been allocated adequate resources. If you look at the budget lines under the Gender Mainstreaming into Macro Policies and Programmes, we have more money, in fact, hundreds of millions of kwacha, being spent on consultancy.

This culture of allocating huge sums of money to consultancies cannot be tolerated and allowed to continue in this country. This is because when the issues of gender came, we were talking about Women and Development. Today, we are talking about Women in Development, but what we still see happening is a situation where, whilst we are advocating for mainstreaming, what is happening is integration. For instance, we saw the creation of a ministry for women affairs. That defeats the purpose of gender mainstreaming because mainstreaming simply entails that the existing Government programmes should continue but ensure that women’s participation is maximised instead of creating another institution, which is a waste of resources. We are supposed to spend those resources on activities that are going to increase women’s participation in governance at all levels, starting from national, provincial, and district down to community levels. That is the whole idea.

Now, when you create another institution, what it simply means is that what is there is not mainstreaming but gender integration. With integration, you plan for gender activities separately and then plan for also plan for the mainstreaming development activities separately. At the some point, for programmatic convenience, you bring them together, which is not the very essence of gender mainstreaming. What we need is to ensure that all these huge resources that are allocated, on gender, for consultancies, must be channeled into activities that are going to sensitise women and ensure that women become more assertive than ever before and participate meaningfully in national development.

Mr Chairperson, I have also looked at Programme 8 ─ Provision and Dissemination of Gender Information ─ K49,873,091. Again, here this is consultancy. Those are the lines that are there. Huge sums of money have been allocated. There is also Programme 9 ─ Adaptation and Application of Regional Instruments on Gender ─ K137,673,790. This is a very good programme, but we have seen huge amounts of money allocated on consultancy. Wherever you look, it is consultancy instead of looking at activities to ensure that all those instruments, which are being referred to in this particular case, are internalised in Zambia or domesticated to benefit women in this country.

Apart from that, there is also another activity on subhead 2 – Economic Sector Unit, under Programme 7, Activity 03 ─ Collect Gender disaggregated data and information on prevalence of HIV─ K34,740,738, and so what? That is the question. This data, which they are talking about, is there. It is there at National AIDS Council. You will find this information at Zambia National Response to HIV/AIDS (Zanara). Why are you spending a lot of money on the collection of this information? We have officers who are very competent, who are employed and can provide this information without engaging consultancies.

Sir, these are some of the measures that the Government must actually look into to ensure that there is cost effectiveness in the way we implement the programmes which are meant to benefit the people.

Mr Chairperson, there is another department called the Policy Analysis and Co-ordination Department ─ K1,670,476,756. Here, there is need for objectivity and action. It should not just end at policy analysis level. We must look at the appropriateness of those policies in addressing the needs of our people. As I said, Cabinet Office, in this case, has a critical role to play by ensuring that the different policies of line ministries are in line with what the law says so that whatever policies that are set, have a direct benefit for our people.

Sir, with regard to Management Development Division, Subhead 2, Strategic Planning Unit, Programme 7 ─ Service Delivery Audits, there was an allocation in 2006, but in 2007, there is nothing, and yet performance audit is very important. Of course, I know that it is there under one programme but it is a very little allocation. How are you going to design programmes that are going to increase effectiveness and efficiency in the public service if such audits cannot be undertaken? There is need, therefore, for the ministry responsible for resource allocation, in this particular case, to make sure that this budget line must receive allocation this year.

Mr Chairperson, under the same subhead, there is also Programme 8 ─ Strategic Planning Development ─ K278,636,462. While strategic planning is very important, I must submit that it is critical to ensure that strategic plans that are developed are comprehensive and practical. They must be tailored to pragmatically uplift the living standards of the people through policy implementation and programmes that are developed by the Government. It will not do for us to develop strategies which will not help our people in any way. I say so because if you look at the word strategy itself, it comes from a Greek word strategia, which means the art of science of becoming a general. We have generals here who …

Mr Mukanga: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairman, I am sorry to rise on a serious point of order on my brother who is debating. If you look in the budget, there is Gender in Development, but my point of order is a constitutional one. Sir, Cap. 1, Article 44 (2) (e) of the Laws of Zambia gives power to the President to, and I quote:

‘establish and dissolve such Government ministries and departments subject to the approval of the National Assembly’.

Mr Chairman, we have a ministry in this House called Gender in Development. This ministry was created by the President and was supposed to be brought to this House for approval according to the Laws of the Republic of Zambia. Is the Government in order to create a ministry and appoint a Minister without following the procedure of the law of the land? I need your serious ruling on this matter, Sir.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Since the point of order deals with a legal issue, the Chair is unable to make a ruling just now. The Chair will defer the ruling of that point of order to a later stage.

Will the hon. Member for Kasama Central continue, please.

Dr. Chishimba: Mr Chairman, when the point of order was raised, I was saying the word ‘strategy’ comes from a Greek word ‘strategia’ which simply means the art of the science of being a General. As you know, Generals are there to plan, of course, in a war situation, and ensure that their men in uniform move according to those plans that are made. Failure to do so, it means that probably the entire army might be ambushed. This means that developing strategies is very important and we expect to develop strategies that work because failure to come up with strategies that are able to work means that the entire programmes of Government would actually fail. There is need to develop strategic plans that have direct response to the real situation on the ground.

Apart from that, I have also seen an item on Monitoring and Evaluation Reports on implementation of Organisational Structures. Yes, this is very good, but I want to say that there is need as such monitoring and evaluation activities are taking place so that information which comes from these reports is utilised to the effect of the entire public sector which is reformed structurally in order to deliver in a manner which is very efficient. Apart from that, there is also adapting organisational structures for district administration or local authorities. On this, I want to say that yes, they should, indeed, allocate more to such so that all the structures, as I said, especially at district level, promote efficiency in delivery.

Mr Chairman, I have also noticed that there is another activity on the Public Service Management Project Unit where you find that what is allocated to develop and implement HIV/AIDS strategy for the Public Service is more than K0.5 billion. He has to come up with a strategy. It is institutions like the National HIV/AIDS Council where, year in year out, strategies are developed. What kind of projects can you spend K688 million on? What is it for? This is too much money which can be spent on other needy and more important areas just like the…

The Deputy Chairman: Order! The hon. Member’s time has expired!

Mr Mooya (Moomba): Thank you, Mr Chairman.

First of all, I want to say that I support the vote. In supporting the vote, I have only two points to discuss. The first one is the Civil Servants Recreation Club. This project, up to 2004, was coming in the Yellow Book, but it has not been reflected in the Yellow Book for the past two years. We know this project is very important. As the saying goes, ‘All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy’. The purpose of this club was for civil servants to go there and relax after a hard day’s work.

Now, just about two hours ago - before I came here - I passed there and what I saw, Mr Chairman, the wastage that is there made me very angry. The building is behind the Pope Square. There is a new Catholic Church. The club is just behind this. I could not believe my eyes over the wastage that I saw there. The first construction started about thirteen years ago and nothing has happened to date. It is not yet completed. This is a project that should have taken a maximum of two years of construction. During this period, a lot of money has been pumped in. Now, what I saw this afternoon broke my heart into two. This concerns the wastage. The building was constructed up to about 80 per cent. Now, there has been no maintenance for the past seven years. Nobody wants to complete that building. As a result, it has been destroyed by rains and vandalism. I call upon Cabinet Office to look into this so that our civil servants can have a place to relax after a hard day’s work.

Now, I remember that in 2004, there was a scandal and the hon. Minister of Lands promised to come and explain the details of that scandal, but no Minister of Lands…

Hon. UPND Member: Which one?

Mr Mooya: …to date, has come to explain why that scandal occurred. However, what I remember is that shortly after that scandal - which had to do with land - somebody tried to encroach onto where this club is located. However, what followed after that was that the Government, representing the Ministry of Lands, Cabinet Office and the Ministry of Works and Supply, met. In the meeting that was held, K400 million was discussed as what was owed to the contractor. In fact, this appeared in the 2004 Supplementary Budget and we approved it here. After this, I really felt that something was going to be done, but nothing has happened. There is a lot of wastage there. I appeal to the Government to do something about it.

The second point is on furniture. I have been seeing this furniture for the past seven years. As you drive along Independence Avenue, there is a link between the Old Cabinet Office and the Ministry of Defence Building. On the first floor, there is some furniture which has been there for many years. I really wonder why that should be put there.

Mr Mwiimbu: It is like a junk yard.

Mr Mooya: Yes, it should be placed somewhere, or why not auction it? It makes the whole place look as if Cabinet Office is not a vehicle like the previous debater stated.

Mr Chairman, I am appealing to Cabinet Office to do something on the issue of furniture. I do not have much to say apart from bringing out these two points to the attention of the Government.

Mr Chairman, I thank you.

The Deputy Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Tetamashimba): Mr Chairman, I know that I am supporting the vote, especially on the previous Presidents. However, I am standing here to react to the previous speaker who mentioned some name of his political leader in the House and drew him to be a hero.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: Having said that, I think it is just fair for those who may have a different view to express themselves. Since his party President has been mentioned, I am sure my colleagues on the left will not say that I am debating a person outside the House when they were the first ones to mention the name of their friend.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: I do agree with the former speaker. Unfortunately, he has run away because he knew that I was going to debate. We must treat the former Presidents with dignity and respect. However, in his debate, I did not expect him to mention his leader because we know that on this Floor of the House, in 1996, when the Constitution was being changed in trying to bar President Dr Kaunda, he was the man dancing Kaunda walala.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: It is a fact that when the founding father of this nation was preparing himself for Christmas the following day, he was whisked away and locked up.

Hon. PF Members: That was MMD, and not us!

Mr Tetamashimba: And their President, Mr Sata, was No. 3 in Government.

Interruptions

Mr Tetamashimba: Mr Chairman …

Mr Kanyanyamina: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairman: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kanyanyamina: Mr Chairman, is it in order for the whole lot of the hon. Deputy Minister of Works and Supply, with his dignity, to start mentioning a party President who cannot defend himself here? Why can he not mention his own party leader?

The Deputy Chairperson: These points of order really make the Chair a bit – well, for lack of a better term, you know when you are making reference to an individual who is not in the House, the Chair would prefer that you do that in passing, but not making the individual the subject of discussion.

With that advice, the hon. Deputy Minister of Works and Supply may continue.

Mr Tetamashimba: All that I am doing here is to say the facts just like others did. Surely, let us hear both sides of the coin.

Laughter

Mr Tetamashimba: I am debating on victimising former Presidents. That is all I am interested in.

Interruptions

Mr Tetamashimba: Mr Chairman, it is a true that the treatment that the founding President of this country underwent during the tenure of office before President Mwanawasa, SC., took over is well known and well documented. We all know what happened in Kabwe where he nearly died.

Mr Mtonga: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mtonga: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Minister of Works and Supply, who has a tendency for mischievous debate, in order to imply that the ill treatment of the former President of Dr Kaunda, in this case, who has been recently compensated by the MMD Government, and to assign the blame to us who have never paid KK any compansation? You are the ones paying him.

The Deputy Chairperson: The Chair is really getting worried about the direction in which the House is going. I would rather we come back to the subject.

Hon. Deputy Minister of Works and Supply, I know your feelings, but can I advise you to gear off that direction and come back to the subject.

Can you, please, continue.

Mr Tetamashimba: Mr Chairman, this House is supposed to have a correct record on paper and I am coming to that. The founding President suffered very much at the expense …

The Deputy Chairman: Order!

Kindly, as I stated, I know how you are feeling, but I think that it is not in the interest of the House to continue in that direction. Can you leave that and come back to the subject and, please, continue.

Mr Tetamashimba: I will not go about the guilty, but I want to go on a different lane. In trying to answer the hon. Member who was on the Floor, this Government, of President Mwanawasa, respects the two former Heads of State. This is why, under this Government, we had to compensate the founding President after his imprisonment. It is this President who compensated and not those who committed the offence of keeping that old man, who brought independence, into prison.

This is why I am saying that we are not like those who were there. We respect former Presidents. It is a fact and it is on record.

Interruptions

Mr Tetamashimba: It is on record and with respect to politics, we, in the MMD, the New Deal Administration, that a former President is enjoying his benefits, and I hope the former Inspector-General will not continue with his running commentaries. He had chance to debate also.

Mr Chairman, this Government, even if a former President decides to enter politics and campaigns for a politician, has never refused to give what is due to that President. The other Government refused Dr Kaunda to get his benefits by virtue of saying he wanted to go back into politics.

Interruptions

Mr Tetamashimba: I am trying to show you the differences between the MMD that had that culture and the New Deal Administration.

Dr Scott: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairman: A point of order is raised.

Dr Scott: I am sorry to continue with this practise, but is the hon. Deputy Minister of Works and Supply who is debating so predictably, at the moment, in order to be suggesting that the MMD Government is somehow different from this MMD Government, especially at the time when it was refusing the benefits for the first Republican President Dr. Kaunda and at the time it was locking up people on the Zero Option, the Vice-President was the current President of the country? I thank you, Sir.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! The hon. Member has adequately debated his point of order. Can I, once again, appeal to the hon. Deputy Minister of Works and Supply …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

… to veer off that direction and come back on track. I am making the appeal for the third time. Hon. Deputy Minister, can you, please, continue.

Mr Tetamashimba: I thank you very much for your guidance.

You see I will move away from that, but it is very surprising that in some Governments you can be a minister of agriculture- you slaughter all your pigs and pay yourself …

Laughter

Mr Tetamashimba: … and come back and say you have integrity. This is not right.

Laughter

Mr Tetamashimba: Mr Chairperson, …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I think that hon. Members will agree with the Chair that I have to guide the proceedings of the House. I think that we are not doing what we should be doing. I have a responsibility bestowed on me, as Chair. I have the authority which derives from you, hon. Member. I will exercise that responsibility.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Can I make a last appeal that we debate the subject. Can you, please, continue.

Mr Tetamashimba: Mr Chairperson, I thank you very much.

Mr Shakafuswa: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: It is very good for us to be respecting the former Heads of State because you never know who is going to be the President tomorrow. It is wrong even for politicians, especially, out there- if they want to bring disunity in the country by, for example, saying that my people are not going to accept this money which is apportioned to this office. The Office of the President, especially for those who are retiring, is very important. It is under the New Deal Government where the two former Presidents have ended up. For example, we are now putting up a house for one.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: For the second President, we have taken the plans to him to make his own adjustments. We are doing that because we do not want a person who is retiring to suffer. This is why you find that we are trying to make sure that there is not much of a difference even in the amounts that are given to the first and second Presidents. We want both of them to concentrate, in fact, to be peace builders in this country. We should not be taking sides as politicians to try and victimise those who are occupying their offices as past Presidents. So, I can say that our Government does not intend to victimise anybody. The two former Presidents who have retired are entitled to move out of the country. This is the only Government which has been allowing former Presidents to go out there.

Hon. PF Members: Ha!

Mr Tetamashimba: This is the only Government.

Mr Shakafuswa: Those who are not facing criminal charges.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Tetamashimba: This is what this Government has been doing. So, we need to give them money so that at anytime they want to go out on official duties, and mind you in case my colleagues on your left do not know, these former Presidents are entitled to go out at the expense of Government.

Mr L. J. Mulenga: It is in the law.

Mr Tetamashimba: It is in the law and it is this Government which is implementing it.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Tetamashimba: Not the one in which some presidents were ministers. So, we need to respect these offices because we do not know who is going to be the next President. You must be thinking that if I were in the shoe of a former President how would I like to be treated by the one who has taken over my office? When you start thinking like that, we are going to consider what is happening to our friends to be happening to us if we came into this office.

As a Government, really, we have nothing to fear. We are going to provide to the former Presidents what is due to them. We are going to allow them to have what they deserve. I can assure you that by next year, we would want to see the first former President stay in his personal house put up by this Government. It will just be fair that by 2010 or 2011, before we go to the next elections, we hand over the house to the third President that this is where you are going to be than him going to stay in a guest house where he would be wondering for how long he would be there. These are the new things that we are bringing in and we need support from that side (Opposition).

I know that in some political parties you cannot aspire to be a president because others are wamuyayaya. In some political parties, a president of a political party, even after just standing for one term, would say, ‘No, I am not standing for another term’ to give chance to other people.

I wish to thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Masiye (Mufulira): I thank you, Mr Chairperson, for according me this chance to contribute on this vote.

Sir, a budget, as we all know, is a plan expressed in monetary terms. In the case of our country, Zambia, the plans are the Fifth National Development Plan (FNDP), the Millennium Development Goals (MDGs), the Vision 2030 and the Fifth National Development Plan (FNDP) 2006 to 2010.

Reverend Nyirongo entered the Chamber.

Hon. PF Members: Welcome!

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Well, I could see that there was a bit of pleasure in the House. So, I wanted to allow that pleasure to calm down.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Can you, please, continue.

Mr Mpombo: Bamayo baisa.

Ms Masiye: I thank you, Sir. I was saying the budget is there for an expression of all of the above, that is, the FNDP, MDGs, Vision 2003 and FNDP 2006 to 2010. Therefore, it is my sincere hope that the sentiments we are raising in its regard in this august House shall be given serious consideration. If this budget is to stand the test of time, it should be implemented to the letter. This can only be the case if the plan is polished from the onset.

Sir, allow me to give an illustration. To claim, by a competitor in a race, to have won a trophy just because he has participated, is a joke. For a team in the finals of a soccer match to claim to have won the trophy just because it reached the finals, is a fallacy. It is that competitor that crosses the finishing line before all the others that walks away and goes home with the trophy. It is that team that scores the determining goal, before the final whistle blows, that walks home with the trophy.

The Ministry of Finance and National Planning can walk away with the trophy this year, if it allows itself to listen to positive criticism.

Mr Daka: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Daka: Is my sister-in-law, who is a very good debater, in order to engage in a cross country debate when we have specifics to debate about. It is the budget, but she is giving a general debate now. Is she in order to debate the way she is debating?

Mr Shakafuswa: And also reading.

Mr Daka: And reading from the notes which Kambwili has passed over to her.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Well, that point of order again reminds the Chair to guide the House that when we debate, like in this particular case, we are not really supposed to read. Therefore, instead of doubting the hon. Member on the Floor, let us assume she is referring to notes.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Can she, please, continue.

Ms Masiye: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. You are actually right. I was making reference to notes.

Interruptions

Ms Masiye: Sir, as a matter of fact, you have to lay a foundation to make sense of what you are trying to say. I am saying so because a superstructure without a foundation will just collapse and fall. You have to understand what I am talking about to make sense of what I am about to say.

Mr Chairperson, I am particularly concerned about the figure allocated to Head 08/01 -Programme 2 – Activity 11, where K45 billion has been allocated to Public Affairs and Summit Meetings. This is the single largest figure under this programme. It is obvious that this figure is an extrapolation from the previous year’s allocation where K29 billion was allocated and a further K3 billion was obtained from the Supplementary Budget to make it K32 billion.

Sir, the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC., recently reiterated that to pump so much money in the Constitution is imprudent at the expense of the majority of Zambians that have been hit by the floods. It is also my opinion, as I agree and concur with the President, that it is imprudent to allocate such a huge amount of money to Summit Meetings at the expense of flood victims.

Mr Chairperson, I had earlier given an example of a team claiming to have won the trophy by mere participation. A team striving to win a trophy allows the coach’s discretion to substitute the players that are found wanting. It is my profound request to this listening Government that the amendments that will be proposed to this budget shall be received with an open mind. They must not be subjective for the mere fact that these amendments are coming from the Opposition. As to the hon. Members of the Opposition, I wish to urge all of you not to relent in the spirit of constructive criticisms of this budget. The people of Zambia elected us to this House to critic this budget positively. Failure to do this will result in people out there misunderstanding us.

Sir, I am sure we all know the story of sour grapes. Once upon a time, there was a dog that came across a grape vineyard with beautiful juicy grapes. This dog tried to take some of those grapes but because the vineyard was so elevated, in its attempt to try and get some of that fruit, it failed. Because of the frustration, it decided to just bite the grape vine. Thereafter, it sat right underneath that tree and told every animal that passed by that tree that those grapes were sour. This is simply because these grapes were beyond the reach of that dog.

Mr Chairperson, what I am trying to say is that if we do not deliberate intelligently or speak wisely as we debate, as we critic this budget, the people out there might think this budget is beyond our scope and we will begin to say sour grapes. It is, therefore, important that we have an open mind from either side of this House.

Sir, may I also refer to Head 08/01 - Programme 3 – Activity 2. The Budget is the same as last year where K800 million has been allocated. I noted that there was a Supplementary Budget of K2.5 billion. Would it not have been better to make a reasonable provision this year instead of coming to ask for a supplementary allocation afterwards, a supplementary allocation, three times the budget provided in the original budget?

Sir, I wish to conclude by thanking Hon. Mpombo who, last week, gave a very interesting story, which initially did not make sense to me but when I sat down, I realised it was meaningful. The Bembas say, ‘umukulu tapusa kebo, apusa akabwe.’ This means that an elderly man cannot miss his words even though he might miss a target when he throws a stone.

Mr Chairperson, Hon. Mpombo said that a flock of sheep led by a lion is very powerful. I may not quote exactly what he said but it was something like that. He further said that a pride of lions led by a sheep is useless. What I am trying to say is that after an afterthought, I realised he was very right because a pride of lions can be led by a sheep, but not a pride of lions. The hon. Minister was referring to a herd and it makes sense. I also wish to agree with him by saying that, indeed, a lion can never herd sheep. The wild can never be turned. What I am trying to say is that, to the lion, the sheep can be turned into dinner at any given time at the discretion of a lion. This is because a lion will always be lion.

Sir, on that note, I beg to move.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Mr Chairperson, I am going to discuss one item, which is the Ministry of Gender in Development. This ministry was created on 31st March, 2006. I am sure that at that time, the Ministry of Finance and National Planning had not finalised the budget. I have checked through the Yellow Book from the first page to the last one but I am surprised that the ministry does not appear. This is a very important ministry. That is why President Mwanawasa created it. This ministry is important because it needs to safeguard women in this country. There is so much violence in this country.

Sir, this morning, we were in a workshop whose theme was, ‘Zero Tolerance to Violence Against Women.’ Today is the beginning and this important ministry was only given K3 billion. There are so many men in this country who abuse women and babies. This morning, we heard that a three month old baby was raped by her biological father. That man must be imprisoned for life or hanged. President Mwanawasa should sign for this man to die. There is no way a normal man can rape his three month old baby and left free.

Mr Chairperson, defilement cases should not be bailable. We need to amend the law. The culprits must be imprisoned without bail. All these things, including sensitisation, are supposed to be done by the Ministry of Gender in Development, but the ministry has no vote in this budget.

Sir, this ministry has a mammoth task of talking to all political parties in this country and ensuring that the 30 per cent threshold for women is reached. Some SADC countries have reached to 50 per cent. Yet, this country not even reached 30 per cent. We thought that by creating this ministry, it was going to be empowered to do this job on behalf of the women, but alas, the ministry has no money. How is Hon. Sayifwanda going to do her job? You cannot create a ministry and deny it funds. You know very well that for her to do any job well, she needs money. We all know that an amount like K3 billion is given to a department. Therefore, we want it to be funded like other ministries i.e. K140 billion for this mammoth task the hon. Minister has.

Mr Chairperson, this morning we heard that wife battering is on the increase. The hon. Minister has to find that information and encourage those women to say it out. She cannot do that if she has no funds for sensitisation. The ministry needs money. If there is a vote where Hon. Magande can take money from to give it to the Ministry of Gender in Development, please go ahead and do that.

Sir, we are very much aware that poverty among women in Zambian is at 75 per cent while of that of men is 65 per cent. It is, therefore, the responsibility of the Minister of Gender in Development to ensure that poverty among women is reduced. You have not given this ministry any money at all. How is the hon. Minister going to do her job? We are also very much aware that female-headed households are more than men. Women are 18.9 per cent while that of men are 16 per cent. Therefore, the hon. Minister still has a job to ensure that few women are heading homes. How do you expect them to carry out this task since you have not given them money? The HIV prevalence is much higher among women than men. It is six times more than the percentage of men. Yet, you have not given the ministry any money at all, how are we going to sensitise our women?

Sir, I know one of the reasons why the number of men is less. They do not go for VCT because they are afraid.

Laughter

Mrs Musokotwane: Women go in numbers. That is why the number is high. We want the number of women to be less, not because they do not go for VCT, but because they are sensitised, look after themselves, protect themselves and that they are not raped.

Laughter

Mrs Musokotwane: You know what I am talking about. The illiteracy level among women is much higher than among men. For the number to be reduced or be equal with that of men or below, the ministry would need money because they will have to travel not only in the urban areas, but also in rural areas like other ministries are doing because more women are in rural areas. We want to see the hon. Minister to in Shang’ombo, Kauwe and Chadiza. We are not going to have an armchair hon. Minister in gender because we have a lot of work to do where women are concerned. Therefore, the ministry will need some money.

Mr Chairperson, a number of Conventions have been signed by this Government - Elimination of all Forms of Discrimination Against Women, Convention on the Rights of Children, Declaration on the Elimination of Violence Against Women, the African Charter on People’s Rights and the SADC Declaration on Gender and Development. So many have been signed, but they have not been ratified. That is the responsibility of the Ministry of Gender in Development to see to it that these conventions are ratified. How is the ministry going to do that without money? As much as women did not want it, this ministry is here. Now that you have given it to us, we are going to demand that it is funded so that it does its job.

Mr Chairperson, my last item is on the controversial Presidential houses.

Sir, I would like to commend the Government for what it is doing now.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Musokotwane: I would like to go further and tell them that President Mwanawasa’s house should be finished in 2010 because six months before elections, President Mwanawasa should move to his house so that State House is renovated for HH when he comes in.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mpombo: Mr Chairperson, let me begin by thanking all hon. Members for their useful contributions.

I will begin with Hon. Musokotwane with her relentless crusade on women’s human rights. We appreciate your efforts. You have been very consistent on women’s issues and, also, your debates have been quite robust.

Laughter

Mr Mpombo: Certainly, we have taken note.

Let me make one clarification. The Ministry of Gender in Development is in the Office of the President. The Gender in Development Division is under Cabinet Office. Therefore, most of the activities that fall under GIDD are under Cabinet Office. The hon. Minister of Gender in Development operates in the Office of the President. I thought I could make that clarification.

Sir, Hon. Musokotwane made very important observations on the need to respect our former Heads of State. What we are saying is that we will not depart from this process. We want to set a good example in Africa. Therefore, our former Heads of State will continue to be well looked after. If they have any problems, please, they should not hesitate to contact us at Cabinet Office. We have a division that is specifically there to carter for their needs.

Mr Chairperson, Hon. Mwila talked about celebrations. As a nation, we must take pride in our national base. If you watched television today, our Vice-President is in Ghana to celebrate that important day for Ghana. Ghana has spent about US $20 million just on that occasion. This is quite a lot of money. What I am trying to say is that these are important and national days which must be supported.

Sir, I would like to assure Dr Chishimba that we have a crop of seasoned economists at Cabinet Office. Therefore, there is no way that economists would come up with such a nice piece of paper and then, fail to deliver on what they have come up with. Therefore, his concerns should not bother him because I am sure that our colleagues at Cabinet Office are determined to ensure that this is done.

The issue that Hon. Mooya raised about furniture is quite right. We will take measures to remove the furniture which has been hanging at Cabinet Office. I would like to thank him for that observation.

Sir, I would also like to assure Hon. Masiye that the Government is very committed to ensuring that whatever has been put in the budget is acted upon. I would, therefore, want to assure you that this budget will not be packed at some place to gather dust, but to be acted upon.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 08/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 08/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 08/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 08/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 08/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 08/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 08/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 09 − (Teaching Service Commission − Office of the President − K1,804,100,615)

Mr Mpombo: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for the opportunity accorded to me to present this year’s estimates of expenditure for the Teaching Service Commission.

Sir, the Teaching Service Commission was established under Article 115 (a) of the Service Commission Act Cap 259. Section 13 (b) and 21 of the same Act empowers the Commission to make, with the consent of the President of the Republic of Zambia, regulations regarding its operational procedures, and/or to confer powers or impose duties on any other or authority of the Government for the purpose of discharging its functions.

Mr Chairperson, the work of the Teaching Service Commission is guided by the following mission statement:

‘To provide high quality service to the Ministry of Education and partly to the Ministry of Science, Technology and Vocational Training in order to enhance high level performance in the teaching profession through timely appointments, confirmations, promotions, retirements and discipline of staff for the sustainable and efficient service delivery to the nation as enshrined in the Act.’

Sir, the functions of the commission are prescribed under Section 122 of the Service Commission Act as follows:

(a) To make appointments to any office in the Teaching Service;

(b) to make appointments on probation, confirmations in appointments, retirements and transfers;

(c) to exercise disciplinary control over persons holding or acting in the established teaching service posts and remove any persons from such offices; and

(d) to conduct professional appraisals for teachers as well as sensitise them or their rights and responsibilities.

Mr Chairperson, the commission had during the year 2006 struggled to fulfil its various functions already mentioned above under a very tight budget of K1,270,226,330. The allocation fell far short of enabling the commission to carry out its operations in an efficient and effective manner. A number of programmes planned for the year could not therefore, be implemented because of the allocation was not adequate. The commission only undertook three provincial tours against the five that were proposed (i.e. Northern, Copperbelt and Eastern Provinces). This situation left the commission with a lot of teachers cases unresolved.

Sir, it is in view of this scenario that I present for this year, a budget estimate for the Teaching Service Commission amounting to K1,804,100,615. This will not only enable the commission carry out its routine operations, but it will also bring about the fulfilment of the new activities namely; purchase of motor vehicles (mini bus) and computers.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to urge this august House to adopt this budget as it is presented.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Chairperson, thank you for according me this opportunity to debate the Vote pertaining to the Teaching Service Commission.

Sir, I do support the provisions for the Teaching Service Commission, though it is inadequate.

We are all aware that the Teaching Service Commission is the employer of teachers in this country. As employers of the teachers in this country, it has a responsibility to look after the welfare of the teachers. Alas, Mr Chairperson, the Teaching Service Commission has not been enabled to by the Government to fulfil its role.

Mr Chairperson, it is not unusual in this country to find teachers living in very deplorable conditions.

Mr Mtonga: Zoona!

Mr Mwiimbu: It is not unusual to find teachers looking like destitutes in this country. It is as a result of failure by the Ministry of Education and the Teaching Service Commission to look after the teachers.

Mr Chairperson, even at the time of retirement, teachers dread retiring in this country. It is not unusual to find a situation where a number of teachers die before getting their benefits.

Mr Mtonga: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: It is not unusual to find teachers begging for money after they have been retired.

When I was growing up, there was pride in being a teacher, but there is no pride any more. Most of our people who join the teaching service now are doing so as a last resort. Where have we taken the pride of teachers? As a Government we have humiliated the teachers. I tend to think that in Africa that Zambia is the worst employer of teachers.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mtonga: Zoona!

Mr Mwiimbu: In the rural areas, Mr Chairperson, teachers are residing in inhabitable accommodation and yet year in and year out, we are advised by this Government that they are building houses for teachers. I have not seen any new house that has been constructed in my constituency. Maybe in other areas teachers are being looked after.

Mr D. Mwila: Hammer!

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Sir, Zambia cannot develop without ensuring that the educational system is uplifted. There is no way that the educational standards can be raised and yet the teachers who are supposed to look after the future of our children are living in squalor.

Mr Chairman, the salary of a teacher is less than K700,000 per month. How do you expect a teacher who resides in Chelstone and teaches in Kanyama to carter for himself or herself and the family? It is not possible. That is why most of these teachers are undertaking teaching under the Academic Production Unit (APU) system to earn more income.

Mr Chairman, let us look after the welfare of our teachers. The Government is one of the worst employers in this country. We have been accusing the private employers of abusing the rights of our workers when, in fact, the Teaching Service Commission, through the Government, has been abusing the workers. The Government has signed a collective agreement between the teachers and themselves to pay housing allowances but it takes more than three years for an ordinary teacher who has not bribed anyone to get their housing allowance.

Mr Chairman, through you to the Minister of Finance and National Planning and those responsible, how come it is difficult to pay the housing allowance together with the salary so that every month the teachers are able to pay their rentals? How do you expect a poor teacher who gets K700,000 to pay rent in Lusaka? A house in Chazanga in Lusaka costs more than K300,000 and yet we expect the teachers to raise and provide quality education to our children. It is not possible. If we are not careful, we will be producing a nation of illiterates in this country. We have to do something about it. There is no way we can expect this country to develop if we are destroying education. I know that for most of us, our children are not in Government schools. We are not feeling the pain the teachers are going through. We are not feeling the pain because our children are studying outside the country.

Mr Chairman, it is high time we provided for our teachers. To get pension after retiring takes years and it is frustrating for somebody who has served the country diligently for a number of years and at the time of retiring, we fail to provide for them. How do we expect them, after retiring, to look after the families? Mr Chairman, it is high time we made a bold decision to provide for our workers, not only teachers but the whole Civil Service.

Mr Chairman, the private employers are being held liable for failure to pay pension contributions, but because we are a Government and the ones who make the laws, we do not care because we know that there is no law that will visit those who are failing. However, Sir, let us visit our moral consciousness because, as leaders, we must be showing good examples.

Mr Chairman, in the public service, which includes the teaching service, the Government has retrenched workers without paying them and without following the law and workers are going to court to seek redress. Why do we not set a good example? We have a responsibility as Government but we are failing to do that. I think it is high time we started setting precedents.

Mr Chairman, this afternoon, I raised the issue of teachers being whipped by chiefs in certain areas. Why should we allow a situation where a chief can take the law in their own hands and start whipping teachers just because, maybe, pupils have failed at that school? Why should we allow a situation where people should be above the law? How do you think the teachers are reacting in this country?

Mr Magande: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Magande: Mr Chairman, I need your very serious ruling. We are now on the Head 09– Teaching Service Commission. The hon. Member for Monze who is a seasoned debater and a learned man is debating teachers who come under the Ministry of Education. Is he in order to debate a wrong Head, and retard progress? We are supposed to be debating the Teaching Service Commission and that is where he should be talking about discipline. At the same time, he is castigating a chief who wants to mete out discipline to teachers on behalf of the Teaching Service Commission. Is he in order to divert?

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Mwiimbu, that is a relevant point of order which you could take into account as you debate. Will the hon. Member continue, please.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairman, the Teaching Service Commission appoints, promotes, disciplines and demotes teachers and I am surprised that the Government has delegated the issue of whipping teachers to traditional rulers as he is saying.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairman, the rights of our hard working teachers in Zambia must be protected. We should not allow lawlessness to prevail in this country.

With these few remarks, I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Sinyangwe (Matero): Mr Chairman, we are, this evening, discussing the mother of all commissions. I say that because the Teaching Service Commission looks after a very large number of teachers. Mr Chairman, I will start by urging the Government to support the Teaching Service Commission. They should not make it difficult for them to operate. We know that the Teaching Service Commission has the responsibility for discipline, appointments, retirements and recruitment. Mr Chairman, what saddens me when we look at the figures is that we have allocated K132 million to transport management for the Teaching Service Commission and yet the vehicles hon. Members of Parliament are buying are worth K200,000,000. How do you expect those gentlemen and ladies to work?

Mr Chairman, teachers are scattered all over the country. They are even in the remotest areas where you do not find a hospital, court or anything. You will find a school there and the teachers expect a lot from the Government. Someone was debating on the idea of teachers not being confirmed. It takes ages before these people get their files and yet we are denying them the facilities. I witnessed, when I was in the Ministry of Education, people from the Teaching Service Commission going on their knees begging for transport…

Mr Sichilima: Where you failed to deliver.

Mrs Sinyangwe: Why should we expect people who are confirming and promoting teachers to go and beg for transport from the very people they are appointing and promoting.
 
Hon. Opposition Member: It is a shame.

Mrs Sinyangwe: How can you expect corruption to go away like that? They go in the provinces, and yet, you do not adequately address their welfare. A headmaster who is supposed to be promoted is accommodating them. What do you expect? These are important people who need transport and they are just a few. We can afford to give them a vehicle each.

Mr Mtonga: Zoona!

Mrs Sinyangwe: To cover the country is not a joke. I know for sure that when files reach the Teaching Service Commission, they work on them adequately, but how many files will reach them? We need these people to go out and find the files in the provinces and in the districts and work on them. You will agree with me that many people have been confirmed posthumously and as a country we cannot be ….

Mr Sichilima: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Sichilima: Mr Chairman, I did not wish to disturb my sister-in-law.

Laughter

Mr Sichilima: Is she in order to mislead the nation and allege that the Teaching Service Commission is corrupt and the teachers are accommodating them, when the nature of Zambians is that if you receive a visitor you have to look after them, and this Government also makes it possible for TSC? Is she in order…

Interruptions

Mr Sichilima: …you have no family…

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Can you, please, address the Chair.

Mr Sichilima: Is she in order to allege that the Teaching Service Commission is corrupt? I need your serious ruling, Mr Chairman.

The Deputy Chairperson: The Chair’s understanding of what Hon. Sinyangwe said was not that the Teaching Service Commission is corrupt. The Chair’s understanding is that, if you do not do certain things for the Teaching Service Commission, you will encourage them to be corrupt. So, since she is your sister-in-law, do not complain.

Can the hon. Member on the Floor, please, continue.

Mrs Sinyangwe: Thank you, Mr Chairman, for saving me from my mysterious brother-in-law.

Laughter

Mrs Sinyangwe: What I was saying was, as teachers, we expect the best from the Teaching Service Commission. Apart from promotions, imagine somebody who has done something wrong and you expect the Teaching Service Commission to mete out punishment and it takes three years for them to get the files and act on them. Maybe, even looking at the case, somebody would have repented, is doing well and then the letter must come three years afterwards. We are not doing any service to them.

Mr Daka: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Daka: Mr Chairman, is the hon. Member who is debating so wildly in order to wear ribbons which we do not know? Is she in order to wear ribbons whose motive we do not know in this Chamber? I need your serious ruling.

The Deputy Chairperson: These points of orders make it very difficult for the Chair to make a proper ruling or guidance. However, Mrs Sinyangwe, maybe, for the interest of the hon. Members, I cannot see your ribbon. Can you explain what you wearing?

Laughter

Mrs Sinyangwe: Thank you, Mr Chairman, it is a pity that the hon. Minister does not know his African attire. Thank you.

Hon. Members: The ribbon.

Mrs Sinyangwe: Which ribbon? This one?

Hon. Members: Yes!

Mrs Sinyangwe: This one is for preventions. You know what we were discussing violence against women…

The Deputy Chairperson: Okey, good.

Mrs Sinyangwe: …and it is good for today.

The Deputy Chairperson: Thank you.

Can you, please, continue, hon. Member.

Mrs Sinyangwe: So, Mr Chairman, I am urging the Government to seriously consider giving more money to the Teaching Service Commission to enable them go round and attend to disciplinary issues and appointments in time. This is because it is not just a question of being appointed. What time you are appointed matters really, because you will find somebody would be acting in one position…

Mr Mukanga: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I think that we are not progressing. I will allow this last point of order on the hon. Member debating. I will not allow any more points of order on her. Can you raise your point of order?

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairman, I rise on a serious point of order. Is the hon. Minister of Transport and Communication in order to wear a green tie…

Laughter

Mr Mukanga: …in this place which is against his Government’s idea of bringing a Constitution this year? I need your serious ruling.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! We have to make progress. There will be no ruling on that one. Can the hon. Member on the Floor, please, continue.

Laughter

Mrs Sinyangwe: Thank you very much, Mr Chairperson. it is a pity that I can be derailed when I am discussing a very important issue. I witnessed a woman who had taught for thirty-five years and at the end of the day they told her that she could not be paid as a pensioner because she was not confirmed. It brings me to another activity here on training. What sort of training would the Teaching Service Commission have with K28,500,000? I thought the people they were going to train would be teachers, who are supposed to understand their conditions of service. I say that this teacher who taught for thirty-five years without being confirmed, if she knew the consequences, would not have continued teaching for thirty-five years only to be told at the end that she was not confirmed and they could not pay her retirement package.

Hon. Opposition Members: Shame!

Mrs Sinyangwe: You will agree with me that people teach for many years and they do not know what is in the Teaching Service Commission. These people in the Teaching Service Commission need to move and educate the people so that they understand what it is when you are in the Teaching Service Commission, but where will K28,500,000 take them?

Mr Chairman, if you went round today and talked to teachers, they are complaining. They are just complaining at their homes, especially in the rural areas. You will agree with me that the Teaching Service Commission do not know the people. They work with numbers. People in the Teaching Service Commission are just numbers because they are too many and they are numbers. Somebody must write something from the headmaster which must go to the District Board Chairperson or Secretary. It must go to the province and then go to headquarters before it finds its way to the Teaching Service Commission. How many years will it take? What decentralisation are we talking about here? That is what I was saying even the last time, you give with the right hand and you get back with your left hand. Let us make sure that decentralisation is taken in the proper manner. Give people the authority. Let the communities decide. Yes, that chief who beat the teacher was acting on behalf of the community and that is what want. We want communities who live with their teachers to know who is a good teacher and a bad teacher. If they recommend that is a good teacher, why do we have to take all these steps before it gets to Teaching Service Commission?

Mr Hachipuka: Beat them.

Mrs Sinyangwe: So, we should be realistic. Let us take decentralisation in a serious manner. Our teachers want to be confirmed and our teachers need to be paid. Sometimes, they tell you that you were supposed to have retired two years ago and because you continued working, you were earning your own money. If the files had gone, we would have seen this teacher not going through the difficulties that we are talking about. We just look at the Teaching Service Commission. If you go to their office, it is not an office of those recommending the highest person in the ministry. How can the person who is recommending and promoting walk and the Director in the ministry is driving? It is shameful. That is a board that is appointed by the President. So, let us give them the respect that is due to them.

The Deputy Chairman: Order!

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.

Mrs Sinyangwe: Mr Chairperson, I get very sad when I see these commissions who have all been appointed by the President. If you go to the Electoral Commission, you will see comfort when you enter their offices. Go to Drug Enforcement Commission, it is the same. Police and Prisons Service Commission is also the same. Why should the Teaching Service Commission who are so rich in their human resource that develops this country be treated like paupers? You can see that even the salaries are poor. Their friends can afford to buy vehicles, but they walk which means even their salaries are very poor.

I would like to urge this Government to be fair in their treatment. Give them better conditions of service. They cannot even afford a cup of tea because they run out of money after two weeks of getting paid. I think we cannot continue like this.

Mr Chairperson, these are humble men and women who have contributed a lot in teaching our people. Some of you were taught by them. Let us give them the dignity that they deserve for them to work better. A hon. Member who was debating this afternoon asked why you could give the responsibility of looking after millions of kwacha to somebody who gets K100,000 as a salary. Here, you do not give them money but you give them a rich human resource to look after. You are recommending somebody who is comfortable, has a good office and a car while you have nothing. I think we need to look into this.

Sir, I urge the Government to increase the figures on training. I do not know how much the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning can train people with K28 million considering the costs. May be they can afford to bring people from one province before they even start teaching, the money is gone. Let us look into this because we always come back. We have got other Votes that are not relevant, but they have money. Let us give the Teaching Service Commission enough privileges and good conditions of service for them to work for us better.

Mr Sichilima: Finally!

Mrs Sinyangwe: Finally, I am urging the hon. Minister, who is a professional, to look into this.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for according me this opportunity to add my voice on the subject of the Teaching Service Commission.

In my view, the Teaching Service Commission, for a long time, has been a cosmetic arrangement. Why do I say so? It is because of the way they have operated. Probably, it is because they are under-funded. I urge this Government to seriously look at the issue of funding this body adequately.

Sir, this body is supposed to be undertaking disciplinary cases. There are incidences where teachers have committed an offence and five years on the line, they have not appeared before the Disciplinary Committee of the Teaching Service Commission.

Sir, matters of industrial relations and discipline are cardinal to the development of any institution. The Teaching Service Commission has been extremely indisciplined because they know that some of the offences that they commit end up without any punitive measures undertaken against the teachers. Let me give an example. I found out from my constituency when I was preparing to debate on this vote, that when I was in school years back, one teacher beat up the headmaster at Mpatamatu Secondary School. I am told that this teacher died six years later without the case being heard. This is extremely unacceptable.

Mr Chairperson, the fact is that I come from the personnel fraternity in Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines (ZCCM). When one commits an offence, forty-eight hours later, disciplinary measure or punitive action is taken against him. I find it extremely degrading to find that a teacher commits an offence, five years on the line, he is not disciplined. Because this commission is toothless, we have seen situations where teachers report to school as and when they feel like. It takes a teacher to send a child to go and tell the headmaster that he is not going to school today. What kind of discipline is that? Teachers are supposed to report to school, sign in a leave, and wait for the approval of the leave before they take it. However, what we have seen in the Teaching Service Commission, even by phone call, a teacher can get leave. This is unacceptable. It is our children, at the end of the day, who are suffering. It is the students and the pupils who are suffering, at the end of the day. I would like to urge this commission and this Government to seriously look at the issue of discipline in the Teaching Service Commission.

Mr Chairperson, some teachers are paid when they have not been at the station for ten days. A teacher will go to Nakonde to buy salaula and does not report for work for ten days. At the end of the month, he gets paid for those ten days while the Teaching Service Commission is there. The headmaster reports to the Teaching Service Commission, but no disciplinary action is taken. How are you going to deter other people from committing a similar offence?

Sir, the Government schools have become and isle. If we were to count how many hon. Members of Parliament have their children in Government schools, the number will be zero or even negative one. This is because of the attitude of the Teaching Service Commission in undertaking discipline to compel these teachers to earn the money they get. They have been getting free money.

With regard to cases of ghost workers, when I lived in the United Kingdom, some of the teachers that left the teaching service ten year ago are still getting their pay. They even boast in that Boma is paying us back home. My wife collects money back home. What kind of the Commission are they? We want to spend tax payers on them when somebody who left the Government ten years ago is still drawing a salary from the Government? This is tax payers’ money we are talking about. We have to account for all the money that we spent as Zambians. This commission must wake up. If they cannot perform, they are better of resigning on moral grounds and give chance to others who want to contribute positively.

Mr Chairperson, confirmation of teachers takes long. This Government is a custodian of Law through the Ministry of Justice. The Labour and Industrial Relations Act is very clear. Anybody who acts for a period of six months must automatically be confirmed. What are we seeing in the Teaching Service Commission? People act for fifteen years without being confirmed. The same Government through this commission is abrogating the law. They are not following the law. How do you expect the Chinese investor to follow the Law if this commission cannot follow the Law? The Government is the first to fail to follow the Law that they have laid down themselves. It is unacceptable. We should see a situation where when people act for six months, the headmaster of the school must be able to write to the Teaching Service Commission that this person has been acting for 6 months, can you confirm him and automatically that person is confirmed. Some people die without being confirmed and yet we are here providing money for them to gallivant the whole country without confirming their teachers when in actual fact they themselves have been confirmed. This is unacceptable. Do your job or we will not approve your budget next year. We are not going to sit here to discuss budgets for people that do not want to do the job. These are the people that are making politicians look like fools. We come here as parliamentarians to approve the budget. At the end of it all, they pocket money without doing the job that is given to them. It is unacceptable. I want to warn them strongly to perform their duties. Otherwise, there will be no budget next year.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairman, on the issue of discipline, there must be at least a committee at provincial level. Let us not wait for this toothless Teaching Service Commission which takes five years to go and look at disciplinary cases. A disciplinary case must be handled within a week when the case has been committed. Otherwise, justice delayed is justice denied.

Mr Chairman, the confirmation of teachers is another issue being done in a haphazard manner. You will find a teacher who started work in 2001 is not confirmed and a teacher who started work in 2003 is confirmed. What kind of a commission is it? That is why we are saying that if they are not catered for adequately, these people will end up being corrupt. There is no explanation as to why a teacher who started work in 2001 could not be confirmed and a teacher who starts in 2003 is confirmed? The only thing is corruption. Let us avoid by all means looking at names and not people.

As regards confirmations in terms of promotions of headmasters and deputy headmasters, you will find a headmaster is at a school for 5 years and he is removed in the 6th year. They will bring another person probably because he is their tribesman and he is confirmed. That headmaster is taken to another school again reverted to deputy headmaster. What were you doing 6 years down the line without confirming such a teacher? Let us not treat Zambians like stupid people. Let us give them the dignity that they deserve. If somebody is incompetent, 6 months down the line, revert them other than keeping somebody acting for 5 years and you revert them after 5 years. Imagine a situation where somebody…

Mr Malwa: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Malwa: Mr Chairman,…

Mr Kambwili: Iwe, ikalafye.

Mr Malwa: Mr Chairman, is it in order for the hon. Member for Roan to use unparliamentary words like ‘stupid’ in the House? I need your very serious ruling, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: We are reminded about the use of certain unparliamentary words. Can the hon. Member for Roan continue and avoid using these words.

Will he continue, please.

Mr Kambwili: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

On the issue of replacement of retirees, this Government has concentrated employing teachers and redeploying them to rural areas when terminally ill teachers in urban areas are not replaced. A terminally ill teacher is not productive. You count that you have fifteen teachers at a school when three of them are terminally ill and have never reported for work for 6 months. When the commission is told, they say as long as this teacher is still alive at that school, he can not be replaced until he dies. This is unacceptable. Let us be realistic. Let us not be too much to the book without following the practical aspect. When a teacher is terminally ill, he is unproductive and you must accept that he must be replaced. In my constituency, for example, Mpatamatu Secondary School is short of twenty-four teachers and yet we hear of statements being issued by the hon. Minister in this House that almost all the schools have the required number of teachers when in actual fact when you go on the ground, you will find that the teachers are not to the expected number according to the…

Professor Lungwangwa: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order, Sir.

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Chairman, is the hon. Member who is debating very eloquently in order to mislead the House that the hon. Minister of Education has made statements which are misleading and false with regard to the availability of teachers in our schools? I need your serious ruling, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: The hon. Member for Roan should take into account that point of correction.

Will he continue, please.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairman, I was talking about terminally ill teachers and their replacements by this commission. You will find a situation where a teacher is bed ridden, the headmaster and fellow teachers know, they report to the commission and the commission says no, until he dies, that is when we will replace such a teacher. Let us be practical. If this commission wants us to approve budgets, can you go to work and stop sleeping. Otherwise, like I have said before, there will be no budget for you next you.

The other issue is about the delay in paying pension. There is a provision that before a teacher retires, he must give 6 months notice. What is this 6 months notice for if after 6 months, you are not able to pay him the pension? People have died leaving their money. Some people have even run mad because of poverty as a result of not being paid by this Government and yet you come here and say you are a listening Government. Start listening now. Save the people from becoming mad and dying without getting their pension. It is high time that this Government and the commission performed. Otherwise, there will be no money for the Teaching Service Commission in 2011.

Laughter.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairman, let me now concur with my mother, the hon. Member for Matero, Hon. Sinyangwe, who said that K28 million for retraining of the commission is an insult, to say the least. What can you do with K28 million? You can not even buy a bicycle?

Hon. Members: Ah.

Mr Kambwili: The amount is too little. No wonder people are confirmed after five years. It is because we are not serious.

Mr Chairman, in supporting the budget on this vote, let us reflect on how the Teaching Service Commission has performed and let Government give them more money so that they can do their job professionally.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chazangwe (Choma Central): Thank you, Mr Chairman, for giving me this opportunity to say something on the Teaching Service Commission.

Mr Chairman, you can see how people are speaking because we are talking about education. When I look at every hon. Member of this House, I see that you passed through schools. That is why you are speaking English like this.

Mr Chairman, the Teaching Service Commission is an instrument that we can use and bring about quality education in this country. That is what we are trying to tell this Government that is pretending to be a listening Government. You are not.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chazangwe: Mr Chairman, I stand here and disagree totally with this amount of money that has been given to the Teaching Service Commission. The hon. Minister of Education is a professor. The Teaching Service Commission is there to motivate teachers, but when you give the Chairman of the Teaching Service Commission this colossal amount, what do you expect him to do?

Mr Chairman, there are a lot of problems in our schools today. There are certain schools where Headmasters are not confirmed.

Mr Mabenga: On a point of order, Sir!

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mabenga: Mr Chairman, I rise on a very serious point of order on the hon. Member of Parliament for Choma. Is the hon. Member in order to talk and complain about a figure he calls a colossal amount? Does he mean what he is saying? I need your serious ruling.

The Deputy Chairperson: I think he meant a smaller amount.

Can the hon. Member continue.

Mr Chazangwe: Mr Chairman, I thank you for protecting me. Actually, it is my cousin who bewitched me, but what I said was ‘uncolossal’.

Laughter

Mr Chazangwe: Mr Chairman, in certain schools, you will find that both the Headmaster, Deputy Headmaster and the Senior teachers are not confirmed, why? It is because of this little amount of money that the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning is giving this commission.

Mr Chairman, again, it is this Teaching Service Commission that employs thousands and thousands of teachers. If you go across, you will find that the area that has got a lot of ghost workers is in the Ministry of Education, why? The reason is that the Teaching Service Commission that employs teachers is supposed to go round and make sure that teachers are working, unfortunately, they do not because there is no money allocated by the Ministry of Finance and National Planning to enable them travel round the country. In this regard, I do not blame the Teaching Service Commission, but the Government for not giving them sufficient money to visit all the provinces every year.

Mr Chairman, we are told that last year and this year the Teaching Service Commission visited only three provinces and yet all the provinces are supposed to be visited and ensure that teachers are confirmed. Why are we doing this to the teachers if we want quality education? We are tyompudi (surprised) and disappointed because we talk to these people every day to do something so as to bring development in this country.

Laughter

Mr Chazangwe: Mr Chairman, I do not agree with my elder brother, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning for allocating this little amount of money to the Teaching Service Commission.

Mr Chairman, there are a lot of things that we can talk in connection with the Ministry of Education, but for the sake of time, let me give chance to other people.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter

The Minister of Education (Professor Lungwangwa): Mr Chairman, I would like to add my voice to the debate. The eloquence and passion with which the debate on the Teaching Service Commission has been undertaken especially by the hon. Members on you left, clearly indicates the significance and importance of education. In particular, the importance of teachers as builders of nations, and it is true that teachers are builders of nations.

It is in that context that the Teaching Service Commission was established in order to ensure that this nation benefits from the work of the teachers. Teachers are at the interface between themselves and the child, and it is true that through the teachers’ eyes, behaviour, conduct and professionalism a child begins to develop. Develop in his/her role and position in our society and begins to develop ideas of how he/she is going to contribute to the development of this nation. Therefore, teachers are extremely important and it is in that regard that the Teaching Service Commission upholds teachers to the highest virtues of their profession, in particular, upholding the teachers to occupational commitment, professionalism in their conduct and to various other professional ethics which are important in the enhancement of the teaching profession.

Therefore, it is extremely important that the Teaching Service Commission be facilitated in order for it to execute its extremely pertinent role of holding teachers to their noble profession and expected cardinal role in the development of the nation. It is true that the Teaching Service Commission has difficulties in executing its responsibilities and that is why the Acting Vice-President has alluded to the need and importance of ensuring that the Teaching Service Commission is made or enabled to be effective and efficient.

The Teaching Service Commission handles 71,000 personnel throughout the country.

Mr Hachipuka: On a point of order, Sir!

The Deputy Chairman: A point of order is raised.

Hon. Government Members: You are tyompudi you!

Mr Hachipuka: Mr Chairman, is the hon. Minister of Education in order to, now, put another jacket on Hon. Mpombo as Acting Vice-President of this country without proper announcement and my approval?

Laughter

The Deputy Chairman: Can the hon. Minister of Education continue. He meant the Acting Leader of Government Business.

Laughter

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Chairman, it was a slip of the tongue. It is extremely important that the Teaching Service Commission be facilitated so that it can become effective and efficient in handling over 70,000 teachers who are scattered throughout the country and are living in very diverse parts of our country. This is important.

Mr Chairman, I am happy that most of those who have spoken have seen the need to facilitate the work of the Teaching Service Commission. My point in the debate is, of course, to recognise what has been stated by way of supporting this part of the budget for the Teaching Service Commission and also to request and earnestly appeal to all hon. Members of the House to recognise the difficulties that the Teaching Service Commission is operating under and also the need to ensure that the Teaching Service Commission is facilitated in the execution of its responsibilities.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Mr Chairman, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to debate on this very important vote. Sir, I promise that I will brief since many colleagues have spoken in unison supporting this vote and also declining the fact that the allocation is very minimal, it is not adequate.

However, since this is the first time that I have taken the Floor since minor tsunami in Government, let me begin by congratulating Hon. Machila who has become the new hon. Minister of Lands, congratulations and welcome. I also wish to commiserate with Hon. Nyirongo, fortunately, she is elected and she is still honourable. She is very welcome and I can see that she is back, somewhere, I used to sit.

Laughter

Dr Machungwa: That is a powerful bench where all those- my friends are there- Hon. Dr Kalumba and others. You are very welcome. It is good to see you back in the House.

Reverend Nyirongo: Thank you.

Dr Machungwa: You see it will get a little bit more interesting as musical chairs begin as we go along. So, you might be sitting there …

Laughter

Dr Machungwa: … but could also be sitting somewhere else.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, no, no! The hon. Member is not debating the subject on the Floor. Can you continue and come back on track.

Dr Machungwa: I thank you, Mr Chairperson, for your guidance. You know, this is a new term and some of my colleagues are new. I was just alerting them that musical chairs do happen in this House. Coming back to the subject …

Mr Mtonga: Zoona!

Dr Machungwa: The Teaching Service Commission, unfortunately, is one institution that considers some kind of appendage to the whole education system, in spite the importance of its role. One gets the impression that it is just some old retired teachers who are given a job to go and sit at the commission and they do not have much to do. In fact, they have a lot of work to do. They have to go round the country. The hon. Minister of Education is talking about 70,000 teachers around the country and that is a large number.

Unfortunately, as my colleagues have said, a lot of these people do not get confirmed. Some of them do not get promoted even though they deserve being promoted or they may not be disciplined when they are supposed to be disciplined. The reason is that, we do not, adequately, fund this commission to be able to go round.

There is also some confusion here among some of my colleagues who have debated. They seem to confuse the tasks of the Ministry of Education with those of the Teaching Service Commission. The Teaching Service Commission does not, actually, do the writing of letters, disciplining, promoting and confirming. What they do, is to go round and make their recommendations. It is up to the Permanent Secretary in the Ministry of Education to carryout these things. So, if that ministry is not performing, the Teaching Service Commission will not be seen to perform.

However, the most important thing we are trying to stress here is that they have to be mobile. They have to go round. I know that they do not have even a bus to go round. This is a function- this is an institution that is supposed to be going round.

Mr Tetamashimba: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Kambwili: Wachilamo nomba!

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Tetamashimba: Mr Chairperson, I am sorry to raise a point of order on the very experienced brains we have now in the House. Is the hon. Member of Parliament, speaking on the Floor, …

Mr Sichilima: Speaking so well.

Dr Machungwa: … in order to inform this House and the nation that promotions in the Ministry of Education are not made by the Commission but the Permanent Secretary. Is he in order to mislead the nation?

Interruptions

The Chairperson: That is an administrative point of order. I am sure that the authorities know who, actually, makes up the appointment. I think that there would be no harm if we could be assisted in terms of who actually makes the promotions for teachers. Is it the Public Service Commission or the Permanent Secretary in the Ministry of Education? I am sure that one of our two hon. Ministers can assist us. Who can help us on that matter? Is it the Teaching Service Commission or Permanent Secretray in the Ministry of Education?

The Minister of Science and Technology (Dr Chituwo): Mr Chairperson, the Teaching Service Commission is the ultimate authority when they receive recommendations from the Ministry of Education to conduct the promotions, confirmations and retirements. So, it is the Teaching Service Commission.

Mr Tetamashima: Thank you very much!

The Deputy Chairperson: Can you continue Dr Machungwa.

Dr Machungwa: I thank you very much, Mr Chairperson. I think my colleagues should be listening a little bit more carefully as I am debating.

Mr Mtonga: Siba kumva chizungu!

Dr Machungwa: You see maybe we debate in a foreign language. They may be the authority, but they do not sit and provide the secretariat to be doing these things or to be writing all those things. That is basically what I was saying.

Mr Simbao: You are over ruling the Chair.

Dr Machungwa: I am not talking about the Chair.

The Deputy Chairperson: Address the Chair! Address the Chair!

Laughter

Dr Machungwa: So, what I was saying is that they have to be going round to make sure that these things are done. We have given them K137 million for transport management. I do not know how many provinces they will be able to visit with that. We have given them K450 million for professional appraisals to go round the country and we are talking about 70,000 teachers. This is, obviously, inadequate.

However, I am very happy that every single person who has spoken has spoken to support this vote. I hope that the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning- as he is listening- if there are any adjustments that have to be made, this is one area where he can put something. At they end of the year, we know supplementaries are coming. We do not want supplementaries for things that are hidden that we cannot support. If you came back and gave something to an institution like this, this is something that we can support because it is going to help push up standards of education in our country.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chisala (Chilubi): Mr Chairperson, I wish to thank you for having accorded me this opportunity of adding my voice to what my fellow hon. Members of Parliament have talked about.

Sir, in the first place, I wish to say that I have made some observations on this vote. The first observation that I have taken on this vote is that of the wages amounting to K208,249,054 which has been allocated to go towards the wages of the workers.

When I look at this, it gives me an impression that the Government is underrating the Teaching Service Commission. We all know very well that for a worker to work effectively and to the best of his or her knowledge, he or she is supposed to be well paid. That is what I understand.

Mr D. Mwila: Tu kabomba mudala wandi.

Mr Chisala: As a former teacher, I had an opportunity to serve in several positions.

Mr Sichilima: Including the position of DA!

Mr Chisala: I know how painful it is for one to get a minimal wage. Why can we not better the Conditions of Service for our workers in the Teaching Service Commission? You know in the teaching service, we have got office orderlies. Those are the people who handle the files day and night. We have also got secretaries. These are the people who make things move, but if these people are not adequately paid, what do you expect in due course?

Mr Kambwili: Steal

Mr Chisala: There will be total confusion. This is one reason why corruption in this country cannot be brought to a halt. If we are to promote and bring it to a halt, we have, first and foremost, to promote and better the Conditions of Service for our serving workers out there. Then things will start moving normally and in a smooth manner.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chisala: Mr Chairperson, in this connection, I am making an earnest appeal to the hon. Minister responsible for Finance and National Planning that we need something to go towards the wages of these people. We do not want these people to be working as slaves in their own mother land. This is their mother land! If it means respecting them, it is from here where we need to respect them.

Mr Chairperson, I further, wish to comment on the duties of the Teaching Service Commission. It is a sad development to note that the Teaching Service Commission which is headed by the Chairman, the Secretary and the other supporting staff including the commissioners can be given a minimal amount and yet the role that they play is quite cardinal. How do you go to extent of giving the Teaching Service Commission an amount of K1,804,100,615? This is too minimal and it cannot enable them buy vehicles. We need these people to be mobile. They need to be able to go to places such as Shangombo, Chavuma, Chadiza, and Chilubi to see how the teachers are working. That way, these people will be empowered. All I am saying is that these people need transport.

Sir, if I were an hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning…

Interruptions

Mr Chisala: … I could make a proposal that each and every commissioner should have his or her own vehicle. That way, people will work effectively. People have the capacity to do their work but they cannot work effectively simply because they are handicapped in terms of transport.

Mr Chairperson, these people are now being blamed for taking too long to promote and confirm the teachers. They are also being blamed for taking too long to retire the teachers who are sick. This is not their problem.

Hon. Member: Hammer!

Mr Chisala: The problem lies in the hands of the Government. If the Government really wants to be present within the many Zambians, why can they not change their trend? This is pathetic and it needs to be changed.

Mr Chairperson, as I am talking, some of the teachers who were recruited in Chilubi about seven years ago have not been confirmed. This is not the problem of the teaching service. The problem lies in the Government. Therefore, we have to equip the Teaching Service Commission with the necessary tools for us to confirm these teachers.  There is no any other tool apart from the money. These people need enough money. You should not treat these teachers as casual workers. These are educated people and they have been trained.

Mr Chairperson, I want to go further and stress the point on long and short term training. This is a very pathetic move to discover that only K28,500,000 has been allocated to this. Surely, even if this was mockery, you should have mercy on your own brothers and sisters. How many workshops do you expect these people to carry out countrywide?

Sir, we need to improve the conditions of service for our serving teachers. We can only do that if we equip the teaching service with sufficient money. In Zambia, we have got nine provinces and we have been given K28,500,000. This simply means that these people may only go to three provinces while six other provinces shall never be touched. In this connection, what we are requesting the Government to do and particularly the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, is to see that more money is allocated towards this vote.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Chisala: Through that, we are going to see the efficiency. On the other hand, these people are being blamed for not serving the teaching service well and not for performing to the expectation. Please, let us stop attacking these innocent souls. The fault lies in our hands as Government. Therefore, the best work to do if the Teaching Service Commission has to perform is to put something towards this so that they improve the conditions of service for these people. We need more money so that these people can be able to go to Chilubi, Luwingu, Chadiza or many other places that I have not mentioned. That way, things shall starting moving nicely in this country. I need efficiency towards this.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mpombo: Mr Chairperson, I must say that this has been a hair-raising debate.

Laughter

Mr Mpombo: Sir, I also want to thank all the debaters for their invaluable contributions. I want to say that their contribution is indeed food for thought on Government. We have taken serious note of the important suggestions that have been put across and we will be seeing how we could move the way forward. Government indeed is aware of the plight of the Teaching Service Commission. You can see that in the proposed Budget, we have introduced measures aimed at facilitating their operations. There are measures like buying a new bus, which they have not got. There are also measures to ensure that their relation is maintained in terms of leave allowances and things like that. Therefore, we are quite alive to those factors.

Sir, in conclusion, a lot of hon. members have said on the need of expanding provision to the Teaching Service Commission. I want to say that all these things are determined by the resource envelope. There is very few money going around and these are competing for various attention by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning. We feel that for the time being, we have done our best to address some of the concerns that our colleagues have been facing.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Vote 09/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 10/01 – (Police and Prisons Service Commission – K2,481,874,966)

Mr Mpombo: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for the time given to present this year’s Estimate of Expenditure for the Police and Prison Service Commission.

Sir, Hon. Members of the House may wish to be reminded that the Police and Prisons Service Commission is established under Section 7 (c) of the Service Commission’s Act No. 24 of 1991.

Mr Chairperson, the mission statement of the Police and Prisons Service Commission is to provide high quality service by upholding integrity of the service through the application of powers vested into it by His Excellency the President without fear or favour and to cultivate rapport and partnership with the Police and Prisons Services in Zambia.

Mr Chairperson, some of the functions of the Police and Prisons Service Commission are as follows:

(a) To decide on matters referred to it by His Excellency the President.

(b) To appoint persons to hold or act in office in the Zambia Police and Prisons Services.

(c) To promote officers to higher rank of Assistant Superintendent and above in the Zambia Police and Prisons Services.

(d) To admit officers to permanent and pensionable establishment in the Zambia Police and Prisons Services.

(e) To exercise disciplinary control over persons holding or acting in such offices.

(f) To review appeals submitted by officers against punishment imposed on them departmentally or by the responsible officers as provided for under the Police and Prisons Service Commission Regulation No. 42.

(g) To direct on the compensation of officers who die or are involved in accidents arising out of and in course of duty; and

(h) To consider transfer to officers arising out of exigencies of the services.

Mr Chairperson, during the year 2006, the commission managed to visit eight (8) divisions

and police posts wherever there are even in the remotest areas were visited. The commission also toured open air prisons on the Copperbelt and Lusaka Provinces.

During the visits, the commission did not just process confirmations, appointments, retirements, discipline and re-instatements, but were also concerned about the environment and conditions under which police and prisons officers were serving.

Mr Chairperson, with the funding of the 2006, Police and Prisons Service Commission was able to tour Lusaka and the Copperbelt Provinces.

Sir, in the course of implementing the above planned programme, the following constraints were experienced:

1. lack of adequate transport;
2. transport problem was faced because at the time of the tours, the commission had two old cars and one TATA van such that the commission depended on Police Service Headquarters for transport each time the commission went out.

Mr Chairperson, the commission is glad to inform this House that three saloon cars were given to Police and Prisons Service Commission by Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) which means that transport problem within town has been reduced. However, we wish to purchase three 4 X 4 KB 300 (ISUZU) in this year’s budget which will enable us conduct our tours without fail.

On funding, I wish to request that our funding in this year’s budget should be increased from K1,238,508,297 to K2,481,874,966 so that all planned activities are met.

Mr Chairperson, the estimates before this House are intended to support this year’s planned activities. I wish therefore, to seek the support o the whole House in approving these estimates.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr L. J. Mulenga (Kwacha): Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank you for this opportunity.

Mr Chairperson, I come from a constituency called Kwacha, which has police camps. Police camps in my constituency are deplorable. Houses are cracking and yet, you have allocated K625 million for rehabilitation for the entire Zambia, that is inadequate.

Hon. PF Members: Tell them!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I know that each time an hon. Member raises a point of order, the Chair has been hearing remarks while seated. Let us not derail the budget. The Chair is very clear. We are discussing the Police and Prisons Service Commission. The hon. on the Floor is making reference to the situation in the police camps. I hope Mr Mulenga is linking his debate to the Police and Prisons Service Commission. That is why you are hearing interjections.

Could you please debate on the Police and Prisons Service Commission.

Mr L. M. Mulenga: Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank you for your guidance.

Mr Chairperson, the point that I am trying to make is that this borders on national security of our Zambia. We cannot subject our policemen to this kind condition. We cannot. If we do that, we are compromising our national security.

Mr Chairperson, we have only one nation and that is Zambia.

Mr Silavwe: On a point f order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Silavwe: Mr Chairperson, we are lost as a House. Is my good friend who is debating in order to start debating on the votes of police officers when we are talking about Police and Service Commission? Is he in order to debate on that vote. I need your serious ruling

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I know that is a reminder for Hon. Mulenga. Could you please come to the Police and Prisons Service Commission? The question of police can be discussed under the next item - Ministry of Home Affairs.

Could you please go to the Police and Prisons Service Commission.

Mr L. J. Mulenga: Mr Chairperson, I think the issues that we are trying to raise here are known and of national concerns.

Sir, when we talk about prisons, which one day all of us might go there.

Laughter

Mr V. Mwale: Tachita chani?

The Deputy Chairpersons: Order! Order! The Chair would like to help Mr L. J. Mulenga. I will reserve your discussion. When we come to Zambia Police, you will be the first one to debate on that item. As for now, I will call on another person to debate.

Laughter

Mr Hachipuka: Mr Chairperson, I would like to prefix my debate by stating that I support the vote for Police and Prisons Commission except that, I want to bring a very live suggestion for that Government to consider.

At one time, we were and we have been looking for savings in this country. We have also been looking for savings for savings in this budget. We appear to be a country that continues to adapt certain practices for years inherited from our colonial masters.

Mr Chairperson, is not this commission and indeed, the one we have been debating, one of those commissions we should do away with and allow the Ministry of Home Affairs to promote their own people. What have we been setting commissions for? They do not work with teachers, police or prison officers. Yet, you are employing a group of people whom you have retired.

Sir, this reminds me of  Dr Kaunda’s days when Governors were sent to Mulungushi house to sit when they could not perform properly because they had been appointed on tribal grounds. They were sent to Mulungushi to go and sit, eat, drinking coffee and travelling. Why do you need Police and Prisons Commission? You do you want to have it? Why is it possible for the hon. Minister of Home Affairs to look after his policemen and promote them? Why is it possible for the officers under his command to be able to suggest and promote their own people? How many ministries have got these commissions? There are must twenty to twenty-three ministries. How many have commissions? What is so special about these areas? We are looking for savings. This country must move.

In this Vote, you have K2 billion, which you are giving to people who are sitting to promote who? You can only promote a person who is working under you. People here are debating and you are looking for money to give to people to travel around and inspect headmasters and prisons. Then, from there, they will give reports and promote or demote who?

Laughter

Mr Hachipuka: What is it that they have to do with prisons? You want to spend money to educate them to go and visit prisons, come back and recommend that you must buy extra bean for the prisoners and then, let them go and learn what prisoners are growing - whether they are growing vegetables or whatever. You want to create employment for your friends and relatives.

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Hachipuka: Yes! If they are useful, why can you not move…

The Deputy Chairpersons: Order! Order! Address the Chair to void attracting some remarks from the other side of the House. You should continue saying ‘why can they not. Then, you will be protected.

Mr Hachipuka: I thank you, Mr Chairperson for your guidance.

Mr Chairperson, I think we can use human beings bodies.

If you check, you will find that most of those who are running the Police and Prisons Service Commission are educated and are trained policemen. Why not move them back and let them do active duties?

Hon. Government Member: They are contract!

Mr Hachipuka: Even if they are on contract move them back. If they are policemen let them go and guard.

Mr Matongo: Hear, hear!

Mr Hachipuka: I, therefore, submit to this House that time has come when we should make savings. Time has come when we should all be in active employment and not to be employed to go and study how my cousin Mukuma works at his office, then I come here and recommend to the Vice-President that he should be promoted, no.

Interruptions

Mr Hachipuka: President Mwanawasa should know whether he is working or not. Why should you employ a group of people and create offices. It is the expenditure that I am concerned about. I am also concerned about people specifically employed to do jobs that do not exist. Do we have a commission here? How is Parliament running? How are we managing? The Speaker and his team are able to look at their staff and promote them when it is necessary. They are able to retire when it is necessary. Why is it not possible to do this in any ministry? For example, if you go to the Ministry of Justice, do they have a commission there? There is also another commission which is the Public Service Commission which is a huge body. Why is this country retiring active and useful people who are under fifty-five?

I seriously urge you to consider scrapping off these commissions so that you can have people doing active duties …

Mrs Musokotwane: Hammer!

Mr Hachipuka: … and not just sitting waiting to be paid.

Laughter

Mr Hachipuka: If you look at the total sums of all the commissions, this money can be used elsewhere.

Mr Chairperson, I am not one of those who waffles and speaks for hours on end, I speak to the point. Please, let this Government through you, Mr Chairperson, consider my point. We cannot go on like this. I am not asking you to throw them in the streets but I am asking you to put them into active duties and I am saying that money should be directed where it is most effective. We must be cost effective.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Matongo (Pemba): Mr Chairperson, there cannot be a better opportunity for me to speak rather than wait until further notice.

Sir, in 2002, the then Vice-President, Hon. Enock Kavindele made a commitment on the Floor of this House that the question of commissions would be reviewed. With a total number of about 498,000 less than 500,000 employees in this country, how many of these are employed by Police and Prisons Service Commission? How many are employed in Zambia Army, Zambia Air Force, Zambia National Service and public service? The question really is on resources.  I am only picking up from my friend’s debate.

Hon. Government Member: Your brother!

Mr Matongo: A village Headman, Silangwa Munyama. With his wisdom, …

Mr Hachipuka: Hear, hear!

Mr Matongo: … he restated the position we stated on this very Floor, that there is completely no need to have plethora of these commissions. We can have experts interwoven into these.  There is the Foreign Affairs Policy. If you read that policy, it provides for a commission, on how many employees there are in foreign affairs. There is a provision for that. In the same year, we talked about how Zambia Information Services was joined together with others.

I want to encourage the Minister of Finance and National Planning to persuade his colleagues to understand that most of the people are public servants. There might be specialised institutions that require specialised commissions to deal with all these but I do not understand why we should have a Teaching Service Commission and a Public Service Commission and soon we may have a Health Ministry Commission…

The Chairman: Order! Just to guide the hon. Member, we are talking about the Police and Prisons Service Commission and we should not go to these other commissions because we have, for example, already discussed the Teaching Service Commission and we agreed that we should give them more funds and so we should limit our discussion to the Head.

Will the hon. Member continue, please.

Mr Matongo: Mr Chairman, I want to suggest that next year, all these commissions could perhaps, be reviewed and maybe merged to see whether we can move forward.

Mr Chairman, I now want to talk about the Prisons Service Commission. Mr Chairman, the amount of money given to this particular commission is far less than what has been given for the travel of the Minister of Home Affairs. Those are figures which are there. Mr Chairman, again when we look at institutions such as this particular one, which is considered important, the amounts allocated should be reviewed next year. The figures given are clearly small to do the job that is being done despite the fact that they are irrelevant.

Mr Chairman, a point was raised that if you look at what has been provided and in particular what has been provided for the rehabilitation programme of the Ministry, although what is being rehabilitated is not stated, my opinion is that the money is not enough and this is not an attack on the Minister or his office but we are saying that we should put the money where our mouths are. I can go further and say that if we cut some of the numbers from international travel and the money allocated for rehabilitation, poverty reduction …

The Chairman: Order! Let me guide the hon. Member for Pemba. I know you are trying to link the Ministry of Home Affairs with the Police and Prisons Service Commission, this way, we may run into difficulties because at an appropriate time we are coming to the Ministry of Home Affairs and may be at that point you will see some of the moneys coming but let us zero in on Police and Prisons Service commission.

Mr Matongo: Mr Chairman, for this particular budget and what I have said about bringing these commissions together in due course, I want to add that the money being provided for Police and Prisons Service Commission would have been probably better allocated to Police and Prisons housing units, instead of going to travels all over the country.

Mr Chairman, the Pemba Police Station, I believe was constructed in 1955 but because there is no money and there has never been any renovation of that police station, because the money goes to commissioners who …

The Chairman: Order!

Laughter

Mr Matongo: I thank you, Mr Chairman, Sir.

Laughter

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Chairman, I have followed the debate by Hon. Hachipuka and Hon. Matongo with interest and I can see their frustration. I suppose their frustration emanates from the fact that the public out there is not aware of the functions of these commissions.

I think that all of us are limiting our attention to the fact that commissions are established to recruit, promote and discipline officers. However, I think one function that these commissions ought to be charged with is the function of professional assessment of officers in the prisons and police.

Mr Chairman, I am sure that Hon. Magande is aware that good governance is founded on institutions of checks and balances. We can not call for good governance while at the same time depositing all authority into one office. While the hon. Minister of Home Affairs could be the supervisor of the prisons and police officers, they require another body that shall ensure that discipline is meted out, that promotions are awarded on merits and that recruitment is done on merit. I think that what is lacking is autonomy for these commissions and empowerment for them to go out and conduct annual assessments of the performance of officers.

Sir, having said that, I would like to state that the provision in the budget raises a lot of questions, particularly, the provision of K625,000,000 to logistical support. That is exactly the same amount of money that has been allocated for office administration. I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister of Home Affairs that when we look at the budget next year, the figures such as K625,000,000 just to be lumped as logistical support will raise a lot of questions. What is it that they require logistical support for to call for K625,000,000? It will make everyone comfortable here if those logistics were to be categorised so that people know where the money is going to.

Sir, I would like to borrow from what Hon. Hachipuka said that he will not waffle. I too would not like waffle on this vote. Suffice to say, that this is one matter on which I find myself in a very difficult position where I differ on a matter of principle with my two elder brothers, Hon. Hachipuka and Hon. Matongo. What I would like to do is to encourage the Government to ensure that the commissions, not only the Prisons and Police Commission, but all other commissions are given more latitude and I also give them more responsibility to go out and be seen by serving officers that the commissions are actually following up and checking on how they are performing. Then, they will earn the respect that they deserve by this House so that when they bring up the budget such as they have done, they shall not have people quarrelling on whether they are relevant or not.

I thank you, Sir.

The Deputy Minister for Copperbelt Province (Mr Mbulakulima): Thank you very much, Mr Chairperson.

I also want to contribute on the same budget issue. I think in line with what Hon. Lubinda has said, I followed very critically what the hon. Members for Mbabala and Pemba said and tend to follow the route that hon. Member for Kabwata used. Definitely, life is dynamic and we ought actually to look at issues as we move on. After all, innovation is very important. We can not say that the way we used to operate 5 to 10 years ago is the same way we are going to continue operating. There is need for us to change, but I think as we embark on that, there is need for us to critically analyse or else we might end up creating some more problems. Hon. Lubinda mentioned the issue of corporate governance. It is very critical and taking route in modern management.

Sometimes I wonder whether even individual organisations, like Zambia State Insurance Corporation, National Pension Scheme Association (Napsa), Bank of Zambia, including private companies, can run without the boards. They have competent managements and they can run without the Board of Directors, but in the name of corporate governance for checks and balances, it is very difficult for us to do without the Board of Directors. We can go further and say that even in the field of energy, for instance, we might argue whether we need it in the Energy Regulation Board (ERB).

Hon. Government Member: Balalunda petrol

Mr Mbulakulima: Of course, we might start changing things just the way we want to change the way Africa flies. We can overrun and restructure, but I think there is need for us to be cautious especially in the field of corporate governance. That suggestion might bring more problems than it might solve.

We need to look at issues of these organisations that we have mentioned very critically and see how best we can bring the concept of professionalism all else we might do the right thing. We need to look at the issue of corporate governance very critically or else, we shall be doomed.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chimumbwa (Nchanga): Mr Chairperson, when we go to church to win the favour of Jesus Christ, you need to castigate the devil. Then Jesus Christ will be very happy with you.

Interruptions

Mr Chimumbwa: We all know that we come from different political parties. When God created the earth, he had a very small administration …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! The Chair thought that you were making reference to religion as a by the way, but you seem to be dwelling on it too long.

May you continue please, and divert from that.

Mr Chimumbwa: Mr Chairperson, we all go to church in this august House. What I am trying to say is that a small administration is very easy to handle. When I was trying to make reference to God, what I was trying to say is that He had a very small administration which was very easy to manage, hence Him appointing commissioners like we are talking about the Prison Service Commission.

Sir, the problem here, I believe is not what we are talking about that they are ineffective. What we are talking about is that we need to decentralise these commissions in order for them to become effective or function properly or effectively.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chimumbwa: It is not a question of how much they are given. Yes, they need money to run around and carry out the duties of Government or the work on behalf of the people of Zambia in terms of administration or on behalf of the President, but they need to decentralise so that they become more effective.

With these few words, I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mpombo: Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank all the hon. Members who have debated, including Hon. Hachipuka, headman, Hon. Matongo, Hon. Matongo, Hon. Mbulakulima, for their contributions. When Hon. Hachipuka stood up to speak, he said that he supported the Budget. I want to thank you for that.

Sir, both the Police and Prisons Commission are very vital to the operations of the police force and the prisons. If these things were tampered with, they would plunge the operations of the police and prison into an operational crisis. These commissions provide an atmosphere of justice and fair play because these are offices that were disciplined by the police and prisons. Therefore, they have got to find an independent body where they can take their complaints.

We need to give them support. One other function they do is to streamline the staffing matters in the Police Force.

Mr Chairman, the hon. Member for Mbabala, Hon. Hachipuka, complained about the number of commissions, but I would invite him to read the Mung’omba Commission which is proposing about eighteen commissions.

I thank you, Sir.

VOTE 10/01 – (Police and Prisons Service Commission – Headquarters – K2,481,874,966).

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairman, could the hon. Minister indicate to the House what constitutes the K655 million under Sub-head 1 – Human Resources and Administration Unit, Programme 2 – General Administration, Activity 02 – Logistical Support – K655,363,198?

Mr Mpombo: Mr Chairman, on Sub-head 1 – Human Resources and Administration Unit, Programme 2 – General Administration, Activity 02 – Logistical Support – K655,363,198, this provision is intended for purchase of vehicles.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairman, on Sub-head 1 –Human Resources and Administration Unit, Programme 10 – Staff Welfare, Activity 01 – HIV/AIDS – K5,000,000, I want to find out why there is a reduction of funding this year from K7.4 million to K5 million. Is it because there are very few people who are suffering from HIV/AIDS in the Teaching Service Commission?

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Magande): Mr Chairman, on Sub-head 1 – Human Resources and Administration Unit, Programme 10 – Staff Welfare, Activity 01 – HIV/AIDS – K5,000,000, the figure might have gone down because some of the activities, for example, sensitisation activities have already been done in the previous year. This is not money necessarily for ARVs or people who are sick. No.

Thank you, Sir.

Vote 10/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 11 – (Zambia Police – Ministry of Home Affairs – 305,011,217,977).

VOTE 15 – (Ministry of Home Affairs – K140,634,746,311).

The Deputy Chairman: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

HOUSE RESUMED

[MADAM DEPUTYY SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

____________

The House adjourned at 1856 hours until 1430 hours on Wednesday, 7th March, 2007.