Debates- Thursday, 8th March, 2007

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Thursday, 8th March 2007

The House met at 1430 hours

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]






Madam Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to inform the House that the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association (CPA) Zambia Branch will join other Commonwealth Parliaments in commemorating the Commonwealth Day which will be observed on Monday, 12th March 2007. The theme for this year is: ‘the Commonwealth - Respecting Difference, Promoting Understanding.’

In line with the theme for this year, the CPA Zambia Branch, in conjunction with Ministry of Education, has invited two youths from each province, one male and one female aged between 18 and 23 to participate in a quiz to take place in the Auditorium, Parliament Buildings at 1000 hours.

The commemoration will be presided upon by the President of the CPA Zambia Branch, Hon. Amusaa K. Mwanamwambwa, MP, Speaker of the National Assembly of Zambia.

All hon. Members are invited to attend these celebrations. The programme for the event has been distributed through the hon. Members’ pigeon holes.

Thank you.




352. Mr Chota (Lubansenshi) asked the Minister of Finance and National Planning:

(a) how much medical levy was collected from bank accounts on interest earned on personal savings and investments from April, 2002 to December, 2006; and
(b) how much medical levy was remitted to the Ministry of Health by the treasury from April, 2002 to December, 2006, year by year.

The Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Shakafuswa): Madam Speaker, I wish to inform the House that the Medical Levy Act No. 6 of 2003 was only enacted in 2003, and therefore, the Government through the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) only started collecting medical levy in April 2003. Since then, the Government has collected a total of K21,832,731,153.00 broken down as follows:

 Year Amount 
2003 K3,479,659,459.00
2004 K5,909,023,977.00
2005 K6,235,238,601.00
2006 K6,208,779,116.00

Total      K21,832,731,153.00

Madam Speaker, regarding how much money was to the Ministry of Health by the Treasury from April, 2002 to December, 2006, year by year, again, as explained in answer to part (a) of the question, disbursements only started in 2003 when the Government started collecting this Levy. From the time the Government started collecting this levy, the total disbursement by 31st December, 2006 was K20,983,264,208.00 disbursed on a yearly basis as follows:

Year Amount 

2003 K316,666,667.00
2004 K6,409,296,393.00
2005 K957,301,148.00 
2006 K13,300,000,000.00
Total K20,983,264,208.00

Madam Speaker, let me state here that medical levy is collected by ZRA and deposited in a holding account at ZRA. The money stays in the holding account until a request to use this money is made by Ministry of Health. You will also note that the total amount of monies funded is less than the total amount of money collected by K849,466,945.00. This is because of the lag between the time money is collected and funded. This money collected in December can only be funded in the following month, that is, January.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chota: Madam Speaker, this is a huge amount of money. Will the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning tell us how they track the expenditure of this huge fund?

Mr Shakafuswa: Madam Speaker, these monies are collected on behalf of the Ministry of Health and when the ministry makes a request, we give instructions to the ZRA to release the money. This money is usually released for the purchase of medicines.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Kasongo (Bangweulu): Madam Speaker, with these staggering figures in mind. Can the Government explain why we have …

Dr Scott: On a point of order, Madam.

Madam Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Dr Scott: I seek the indulgence of my colleague.

Madam Speaker, I have just been to try and buy a book at Manda Hill only to find that the bookshop is closed due to two thirds of the staff not having turned up for work. There is no secret about the reason for this. Yesterday’s Zambia Daily Mail front page has a story ‘March 8 a Holiday.’ It announces that the Government has declared today a holiday. Yesterday, of course, we were privileged in the House, to have received a statement from the Chief Government Spokesman saying that it was not a holiday and the statement was signed, Vernon J. Mwaanga, MP, GOEZ.

Madam, our people are very confused about a number of things. Some people are saying that it is a holiday for women, but not for men. There is a Short Message System (SMS) message going round saying that it is a public holiday, except that the PF has not been invited to participate in it.


Dr Scott: Madam Speaker, the point of order that I wish to raise is on the hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services who described himself as Vernon J. Mwaanga, MP, GOEZ. I have been trying to find out what GOEZ is for the last 24 hours. There are various people who have suggested that it is a qualification in doctrine and others have said …


Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! Ask your point of order.

Dr Scott: Is the hon. Minister in order to describe himself as a GOEZ when nobody seems to know what it is? I will lay the document on the Table.


Dr Scott laid the document on the Table.


Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! May the hon. Member for Bangweulu continue, please.

Mr Kasongo: Mr Speaker, I was saying, with those staggering figures in hand, can the Government explain why most of our Rural Health Centres have no bed linen, beds and medicine?

Mr Shakafuswa: Madam, this question was supposed to be directed to the Ministry of Health. As a Government, we have been working together with the Ministry of Health to find out what is happening. I would like to appeal to hon. Members of Parliament to also assist us in this. What is happening is that every District Management Board makes requests and the Provincial Health Teams are funded based on such requests. You will notice that, of late, we have been talking about shortages of drugs and other items. It would also help if hon. Members of Parliament made sure that when requests are made and funding is given, they find out where the money is actually going. It might not be within the ministries, but the people who pass through the ministries who misapply this money. It should be our concern because there could be somebody getting the linen and medicine at a cheaper price and making it difficult for people who deserve these services to actually use them.

The Ministry of Health funds according to requests which come. Let us compare the requests with what is going to our people.

I thank you, Madam.


354. Mr Chisala (Chilubi) asked the Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives when more extension officers would be posted to Chilubi Parliamentary Constituency, which currently has only three extension officers instead of ten.

The Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives (Mr Kalenga): Madam Speaker, in December, 2006, four extension officers were posted to agricultural camps in Chilubi Parliamentary Constituency, bringing the total to seven extension officers. However, one officer, among the four posted, has not yet reported. The remaining four positions will be filled this year when the candidates who were interviewed recently for the jobs are admitted into the Civil Service and posted to the Northern Province for onward posting to respective districts, Chilubi District, inclusive.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Chisala: Madam Speaker, how soon does the hon. Minister intend to send these extension officers?

Mr Kalenga: Madam Speaker, let me emphasise. I said the remaining four positions will be filled this year when the candidates who were interviewed recently for jobs are admitted into the Civil Service and posted to the Northern Province for onward posting to respective districts, Chilubi District, inclusive.

I thank you, Madam




(Consideration resumed)

VOTE 15/06 ─ (Ministry of Home Affairs ─ National Registration Department ─ K17,207,846,970).

Dr Scott (Lusaka Central): Mr Chairperson, the hon. Deputy Minister had just responded to a question by Hon. Lubinda who had asked why the sums of money voted for both Continuous and Mobile National Registration Card issuance had dropped so much since last year. The hon. Deputy Minister had responded that last year, the amount was big because of voters’ registration, which is, of course, contingent upon would-be voters having a National Registration Card.

Madam, I just wish to comment on two things. First of all, last year …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Dr Scott: I seek clarification on two things.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! That is right, but do not make it a debate, please.

Dr Scott: Sir, I seek clarification that since the voter registration was mostly in 2006 and, in fact, Ms Irene Mambilima, of the Electoral Commission of Zambia had said that she was stopping the registration last year because there was no national registration ongoing. In the light of that fact, it would be nice to have clarification. The other thing it would be nice to have clarification on is, what has National Registration Card issuance got to do with voters’ card issuance? The National Registration Card is an identity document which is required of all adult Zambians and should have nothing do with whether there is a voter registration or not. Can the hon. Minister clarify, please, Sir?

The Minister of Home Affairs (Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha): Mr Chairperson, I find the clarification sought by the hon. Member of Parliament for Lusaka Central a little desire because registration is continuous and during the period before elections, more people want to get their NRCs in order for them to access the voter’s card. That is what we were doing and this is why the figures were increased. We are ready and available at the office to discuss with the hon. Member if there is anything he wants to be clarified.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 15/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 15/07 ─ (Ministry of Home Affairs ─ Drug Enforcement Commission ─ Headquarters ─ K15,990,588,484).

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Chairman, I would like to seek clarification on Sub-head 1 ─ Human Resources and Administration Unit, Programme 2 ─ General Administration, Activity 07 ─ Identification and Investigation of Drug Syndicates ─ K4,100,000,000. We had K7 billion in last year’s budget, but it has been reduced to K4 billion. I do not know why there is a reduction.

Mrs Masebo: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairman, I rise on a very serious point of order. Is the hon. Member who was speaking very well and the other men who are sitting very nicely in order to be seated as the women walk into this House considering that this is our day and we need to be honoured and the men should stand up for us? I seek your serious ruling, Sir.


The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Members, our female Parliamentarians are wondering whether it is in order for the male hon. Members not to stand up when the female hon. Members are entering. That is a big challenge. I think for now, I will reserve the ruling to a later date. Of course, there will be no ruling.

Will the hon. Member for Kantanshi continue, please.


Mr Mukanga: Thank you, Mr Chairman. When the point of order was raised, I was saying that I need clarification on Sub-head 1 ─ Human Resources and Administration, Programme 2 ─ General Administration, Activity 07 ─ Identification and Investigation of Drug Syndicates ─ K4,100,000,000. Last year, we had an initial budget of K4 billion and a supplement of K3 billion which came to K7 billion. This year again, we have a budget of K4 billion. I wonder whether they will not have another supplement. What is it for and why is there a reduction?

The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Musosha): Mr Chairman, on Sub-head 1 ─ Human Resources and Administration Unit, Programme 2 ─ General Administration, Activity 07 ─ Identification and Investigation of Drug Syndicates ─ K4,100,000,000, you will agree with us that when the programme is just being introduced, you should expect a lot of money as start-up capital. Now that we have settled down a little, it is ideal that we accept this amount though it looks small.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Chairman, on Sub-head 1 ─ Human Resources and Administration Unit, Programme 2 ─ General Administration, Activity 04 ─ International Seminars on Drugs and Anti-Money Laundering ─ K45,402,567 and Activity 05 ─ Anti-Money Laundering Supervisor Authority Meetings ─ K20,995,261, the allocations together for last year were K108 million and yet for this year, it is only K65 million. I would like to find out why there is a reduction on that very important task of anti-money laundering allocation and seek confirmation from the hon. Minister whether there is an allocation in the Budget for anti-money laundering under a completely irrelevant ministry.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Chairman, on Sub-head 1 – Human Resources Administration Unit, Programme 2 ─ General Administration, Activity 04 ─ International Seminars on Drugs and Anti-Money Laundering ─ K45,402,567 and Activity 05 ─ Anti-Money Laundering Supervisor Authority Meetings ─ K20,995,261, this provision is required to meet the costs of training various categories of Drug Enforcement Commission officers. That is why there is this transfer of resources to Activity 04 – Anti-Money Laundering Investigation Unit.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Imbwae (Lukulu West): Mr Chairman, on Sub-head 3 ─ Human Resources Development Unit, Programme 5 ─ Capacity Building, Activity 01 ─ Training ─ K142,807,435, an amount of K227 million was allocated last year and this year, there is K142 million. Is there a reason for the reduction or people do not need any training any more?

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Chairman, on Sub-head 3 ─ Human Resources Development Unit, Programme 5 ─ Capacity Building, Activity 01 ─ Training ─ K142,807,435, we have just had to scale down on training this year. This is why there is a reduction.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Singombe (Dundumwenzi): Mr Chairman, on Sub-head 1 – Human Resources and Administration, Programme 8 – Public Awareness, Activity 03 – HIV and AIDS Awareness and ARVs – K124,052,200, yesterday, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs said that ARVs will be distributed at no cost, but they have allocated an amount of K124 million to this vote. Why are some departments are given the ARVs at no cost while for others, they have to be bought.

The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Ms Njapau): Mr Chairman, on Sub-head 1 – Human Resources and Administration, Programme 8 – Public Awareness, Activity 03 – HIV and AIDS and ARVs – K124,052,200, the increase is due to the intensity of awareness campaigns and more officers attending HIV/AIDS and ARVs treatments.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 15/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/10 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/11 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/12 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/13 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/14 ordered top stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/15 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/17 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/18 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/19 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/20 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/21 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/22 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/23 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/24 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/25 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/26 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/27 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/28 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/29 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/30 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/31 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/32 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/33 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/34 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/35 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/36 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/37 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/38 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/39 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/40 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/41 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/42 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/43 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/44 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/46 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/47 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/48 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/49 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/50 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/51 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/52 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/53 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/54 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/55 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/56 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/57 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 12/01 – (Commission for Investigations – Office of the President – K2,924,366,476).

The Minister of Defence (Mr Mpombo): Mr Chairperson, it is now my honour and privilege to present to this august House the Recurrent and Capital Expenditure Budget Estimates for 2007 with respect to the Commission for Investigations.

Sir, the Commission for Investigations was established in December 1973 through Article II (3) of the Republican Constitution as read with Section 20 of the Commission for Investigations Act 22 of 1974. Today, it derives its legal status from Article 90 of the 1996 Republican Constitution and the Commission for Investigations Act No.20 of 1991 Cap of 39 of the Laws of Zambia.

The Mission Statement

Mr Chairperson the operations of the Commission for Investigations are guided by the following mission statements:

‘To ensure fairness and promotion of social justice in the administration of public institutions in order to facilitate the efficient and effective delivery of service to the people. Its ultimate goal is to ensure compliance with laid down administrative procedures, practices and ethics and initiate corrective action in public institutions in order to enhance effective administration.’

Sir, among the main functions of the Commission for Investigations are the following:

(a) investigations functions which involves investigating and redressing grievances of mal-administration in public institutions and ensuring promotion of fairness and social justice. It also includes monitoring administrative mal-practices to ensure compliance to laid-down procedures.

(b) publicity and information functions which consist of the promotion of public awareness of the existence of services provided by the Commission.

(c) Other functions are: establishment and maintenance of an effective and efficient management information system.

Mr Chairperson, regarding the performance of the Commission for Investigations, it is measured by the number of cases that they receive and resolve. For example, a record of cases handled by the Commission during the first quarter 1st January to 31st March 2003 is as follows:

PROVINCE            TOTAL                  SEX                                ANONYMOUS      JOINT
                             NUMBER                                                      COMPLAINTS       COMPLAINTS
                             COMPLAINTS       FEMALE       MALE

Copperbelt               21                        18                     3                  -                             -
Northern                  18                         17                     1                 -                             -
Luapula                   14                         11                     -                 3                             -
Central                    14                         10                     4                 -                              -
North Western        17                         15                     2                 -                              -
Lusaka                    45                         34                     6                 1                            3
Western                   9                          6                       3                 -                             -
Eastern                    7                          4                       2                 -                             1
Southern                  7                          4                       2                1                             -
Grand Total            153                      120                     23               5                           5

The Commission closed a total number of seventy-four cases in the first quarter. For the whole year of 2006, the Commission received a total number of 636 cases and a total number 280 cases were concluded.

Sir, hon. Members will recall that last year, this august House approved a total of K1,435,077,658 billion against K1,617,673,781,000 which was released by the National Treasury, representing 113 per cent of the total budget released to the Commission for Investigations.

Mr Chairperson, the major challenges of the Commission have been as follows:

(a) Centralisation of the Commission’s Operations.

Since the establishment of the Commission for Investigations in 1974, the institution has been centrally located in Lusaka without provincial and district offices.

Despite offering free-case resolution services to the public, it has proved difficult for some complainants to come and lodge complaints with the Commission because of the distance to Lusaka.

(b) Limited establishment

The staffing levels of the Commission have been extremely inadequate against the ever increasing volume of the work load.

(c) Policy Review

The Act by which the Commission for Investigations was established in 1974 has not been reviewed for a very long time against numerous social, economic and political changes that have taken place.

The programme lined for 2007

Sir, the Commission for Investigations planned activities for 2007 are as follows:

(a) commence the exercise of restructuring of the Commission for Investigations which will give birth to the exercise of decentralisation by establishing provincial centres through which complaints from districts will be processed;

(b) as a form of training, continue to attach senior officers to regional and international ombudsman centres for cross pollination of ideas and updating the operations to international levels;

(c) the commission for investigations has planned tours to five provinces to resolve ongoing cases at the same time to receive new complaints. The provinces to be toured are: Southern, Eastern, Copperbelt, North Western and Northern Provinces;

(d) under the capacity building programme there are three components which the commission for investigations plans to undertake and these are:

(i) continue with the exercise of policy review and development;

(ii) training of senior management, investigations and registry staff in alternative disputes, mediation and resolution as well as basic skills in investigations;

(iii) introduction and maintenance of an electronic data base.

(e) to launch vigorous publicity programmes through electronic and print media. These activities are aimed at redressing grievances in order to achieve social justice, fair play and good governance.

Furthermore, Mr Chairperson, it is the commission’s earnest appeal to the hon. Members of Parliament to assist in publicising and educating their constituencies about the existence and services of this very important Government institution.

Sir, finally, the commission humbly requests that this august House may kindly approve the commission’s estimates of expenditure to cover the period from 1st January, 2007 to 31st December, 2007.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Chairperson, I would like to say that I support this vote very much. In so doing, I would like to say that I am extremely impressed with the statistics that have been given by His Honour the Vice-President with regard to the number of cases that have been handled over the last one year by the Office of the Investigator-General. 636 cases with 280 concluded by a staff of only eight professionals is indeed, an impressive record and they ought to be recommended.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Sir, in a developing country such as ours, institutions such as the ombudsman are extremely critical because these are institutions of governance and they ensure that there are cheques and balances in the way power is used. It is extremely sad to look at the kind of locations we make to this office. His Honour the Vice- President, in his policy debate lamented a number of weaknesses in the Office of the Investigator-General. Besides the lack of decentralisation is also a question of invisibility of the Office of the Investigator-General. There are many matters that affect our people which otherwise should have been brought to the attention of the Investigator-General had that office been visible.

Sir, I can assure you that even amongst us gathered in this Parliament, very few know where the Office of the Investigator-General is.  That office is stacked away in a corner behind the former Lusaka Province Administration Office. It is almost impossible to even find the officers. Some of the people do not even know that we have the Office of the Investigator- General. I think that such an office requires a lot of publicity and to get hon. Members of Parliament to publicise the existence of that office and this is only a tip of what is supposed to be done.

Sir, the first thing that we are supposed to do is relocate that office. That office should be located where it will be visible, where people would be able to see it. It should be a place which is easy to visit. At the moment, it is unfriendly to visit that office because it is as though you are walking into a dungeon. How do you expect people who have complaints against the Government to go to a place that looks like a prison to report on matters on which they have grievances? This year, you should find office space where the Office of the Investigator-General will be easily accessed by the Zambian people.

Sir, secondly, the issue of decentralisation in that office is extremely critical. Instead of thinking that we should decentralise the Investigator-General’s Office itself, we should use some new or already existing institutions of governance such as local authorities. Two years ago, you might recall that the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing instructed city councils to establish mini-offices of ombudsman. The reason for that is that you will realise that there was so much maladministration, not only in the Central Government, but in local authorities as well.

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister would like to create a channel between the people and the Office of the Investigator-General. His Honour the Vice-President would do a good thing if he worked together with the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing so that the officers representing the Investigator-General are located in local authorities. That will assist us in decentralising the function of the Investigator-General and make the Investigator-General more accessible to our people.

Sir, the issue of public awareness of existence of the Investigator-General, I am afraid, does not seem to be taken seriously, as the Vice-President mentioned.  It does not seem to be reflected in the figures that have been allocated to that office.

Sir, if you look at Sub-head 1, Programme 7 – Public Awareness, you will see that the amount of money allocated for Production of Radio and Television Programmes through which that office is supposed to publicise its existence, there is only K22 million allocated. I am sure that the hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services will know that K22 million does not pay for many radio and television programmes. I wonder whether this is even enough for them to run programmes only on television for one year. I would have wanted to see the seriousness with which the Vice- President debated this matter also reflected in the figures that have been allocated to the Office of the Investigator-General.

Sir, another factor is the matter concerning the professionals. Such an important office should not be allowed to continue to operate since 1994, when the Vice-President said it was established, with only two Investigations Officers. I even wonder what kind of investigations they undertook to handle the 280 cases. Seriously, this shows that that office is not being given the regard that it deserves. That office is being considered in the same vein as the Office of the Auditor-General and the Anti-Corruption Commission. These institutions that exist on the expenses of the Government, unfortunately are suffering because they have no access to the money. As you saw, when you asked for debate, not many were enthusiastic to debate because very few of us seem to know that they exist.

Sir, there are also only three commissioners who are supposed to handle matters affecting the whole of this country. I would like to appeal to His Honour the Vice-President to look into the matters of that institution with the seriousness that it deserves. I have no doubt that in this Budget, there are many allocations to ministries which are totally irrelevant, which could have been allocated to the Office of the Investigator-General. It is one thing for the Executive to allocate the money to its own functions, but it is also another thing to ensure that it allocates money to those institutions that are established by law to be watchdogs on behalf of the Zambian people and this is one such office.

Sir, you will note that even if there is difference in an increase in the total allocation from K1.5 billion to K2.9 billion, those allocations are not to do with building capacities at the Office of the Investigator General. That is where I think we should be saving money. Let me end by appealing to His Honour the Vice-President to look at all the lamentations he makes when presenting policy debate and catalogue a number of weaknesses. I hope when we gather again here next year to look at the budget for 2008, the Vice-President will tell us that he has expanded the Office of the Investigator-General by more staff, office space, transport and equipment because this is an office that I have to say is a very sorry office. I cannot even imagine how the officers in this office operate when they are not given that which they require for them to check on the excesses of the Executive.

Sir, I support the vote and I wish there was more money allocated to it.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

Mr Chilembo (Chama North): Mr Chairperson, I am compelled to speak in support of this budget because it is very clear that very little is known about it. Therefore, I thought the little that I know could be shared.

Mr Chairperson, this is a very important institution which needs our support. What is required is to put more money into public awareness. If people know what this institution stand for, they can lodge their complaints to this institutions. From what has been provided for in the Budget, it is clear that there is a very small allocation to public awareness. Therefore, you wonder if the Government is really serious about this institution.

Sir, if we are saying that it is an important institution, which it is, why can we not allocate it sufficient funds especially in the area of awareness? My experience with this institution is that it has mostly been used for complaints relating to labour matters. At some point, there is confusion between the Industrial Relations Court work and what this institution stands for.

If the Vice-President catalogued the type of cases which have been dealt with, it would be apparent that most of the matters involved relate to labour issues. Yet, this is an institution which could also investigate matters relating to abuse of office. Again, there is yet another problem because the Anti-Corruption Commission appears to be dealing with a lot of cases relating to abuse of office. There is an overlap. In fact, it must not be misconceived that only individuals can go to this institution and complain against stronger powers. The President can also use this institution to investigate some matters because we are talking of abuse of office. Normally, people who abuse office are people who are privileged and try to sit on their juniors.

Therefore, I would urge the Government to take advantage of the existence of this institution and use it. Let us not limit ourselves to the Anti-Corruption Commission. This intuition can be used to curb excesses.

Sir, on man power, there are many Zambians who can be employed. There is no need to have three investigators or such minimal numbers like that. Let us allocate money where it should be allocated and employ more people. We should also not delay with the decentralisation process.

Sir, in rural areas, chiefs expel people from their areas. If we were decentralised, such matters would be dealt with at that level. Therefore, let us demonstrate seriousness by putting a lot of money into this institution. I believe in the process, even our courts will be decongested.

Sir, I do not know why there is no allocation on the production of brochures and other things. I think radios could be a better method of reaching the people.

It is good that hon. Members of Parliament should be involved, but most hon. Members are limping and have no resources to go round. As you can see, there is no money which will be given to hon. Members to conduct this exercise. You would include that in general duties, but if we are serious, we need to specifically provide money to educate our people.

Actually, we have a commission which is meant to do that job professionally. I would therefore, urge the Government to put more money into it. I can see that there is some money on Programme 9 – Regional and International Ombudsman – K2,924,366,476. Actually, we should be seen to be implementing these programmes on the ground.

Sometimes we could have these institutions simply to show the international community that we are also meeting international standards. To me, this institution is not a matter of showing that we are also complying, but that we do actually comply. We need this institution because there are many cases of people abusing their offices.

Mr Chairperson, in short, I would say that I support this budget as it is. Let us make sure that these plans are implemented in the next budget because I know that at this stage, there is very little that we can do, but where you can, please put money into public awareness. Very little is known about this institution.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Lubinda: Hear, hear! Wakamba mwana!

Acting Leader of Government Business in the House (Mr Mpombo): Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank Hon. Lubinda and Hon. Chilembo for their valuable contributions. I totally agree with their concerns. I therefore want to say that the operations of the commission have been a source a great worry to the Government over the years. It is in this vein that in this year’s budget, the Government has increased the allocation by about 92 per cent from previous budgets. It has gone up to almost K1.4 billion compared to previous allocations. This is a quantum leap in view of the previous allocations.

Once again, I would like to thank all hon. Members and assure them that the Government has taken very serious note of the valuable contributions they have made and will act on them accordingly.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

VOTE 12– (Commission for Investigations – Office of the President – Headquarters – K2,924,366,476).

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification from the Vice-President. In my debate, I referred to the matter and I thought he would take advantage of his concluding debate to inform this House how many television and radio programmes have been budgeted for …

The Deputy Chairperson: Which item are you referring to?

Mr Lubinda:  Mr Chairman, it is Programme 7, Activity 02 – Production of Radio and Television Programmes – K22,000,000. I would like to find out how many such programmes have been budgeted for and on how many different stations to increase the awareness of the public on the functions of the Commission for Investigations.

Mr Magande: Mr Chairperson, I do not have the exact numbers, but we intend to cover the cost of interviews on radio and television. We arrange some of them when there is a topical issue. We only know the cost of individual programmes as we go along, but it is a lot of programmes.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 12 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 14/01 – (Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development – Headquarters – K26,223,746,072).

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Magande): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to speak on the estimates of expenditure for the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development for the year 2007.

Before I proceed with my comments, I would like to recall what Hon. Masebo brought to this House and I am pleased to send felicitations to all human kinds in the female gender for the work they have done for humanity.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Magande: Indeed, most of us are offspring of some reaction that we know that we were carried by the female gender. That is a sure source of our being on earth.

Ms Masebo: Hear, hear!

Mr Magande: I would like, therefore, to say to them, continue the good work and we, at the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development, as you know, will fully support you through your Women–In–Mining Association and will continue to make sure that you are empowered.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Magande: Mr Chairperson, the mission statement for my ministry is:

‘To formulate, implement, monitor and evaluate policy on the exploration, development exploitation and downstream processing of mineral resources in the country in a safe economic and sustainable manner for the optimum benefit of the Zambian people.’

The Minister of Mines and Minerals Development is responsible for managing the mineral resources of the country, monitoring of the operations of the ministry industry and seismic activities to facilitate appropriate interventions.

Sir, the goal for my ministry is:

‘To create a conducive, stable, predictable and competitive policy, legal and regulatory framework that will attract and retain investment in the sector for the development of the country.’

Having made considerable progress in creating conducive environment for private sector participation in the development of the mining sector, my ministry continued to pursue the following objectives:

(a) to attract corporate responsible investment for the development of the mining sector;

(b) to revitalise and ensure the realisation of the potential of the small–scale mining sub–sector to contribute to economic development and poverty reduction;

(c) to increase long-term benefits of the mining sector by integrating the sector with the rest of the economy through backward and forward linkages; and

(d) to ensure environmental sustainability in the sector.

Mr Chairperson, the performance of the sector in 2006 continued to show positive gains by recording a growth of 18 per cent in real terms compared to 7.9 per cent in 2005. This was mainly due to the increase in mineral production, continued rise in the metal prices and the development of new mines.

Some of the major developments in the sector that are worth mentioning included the following:

(i) Lumwana Project

Following the conclusion of the Development Agreement in December 2005, mine construction works began in 2006 and are expected to take two years. The estimated life span of the mine once it gets into production is thirty-seven years with an average annual copper production of 140,000 tonnes.

(ii) Munali Hills Nickel Project

Construction works at the mine site commenced in September 2006 following the signing of the Development Agreement in June 2006. Production of Nickel is envisaged to commence in 2008. The annual production from this mine is expected to average 39,059 tonnes of nickel.

(iii) Mulyashi North Deposit and Oxide Caps

The Mulyashi North Deposit and Oxide Caps that formally belonged to RAMCOZ were finally sold to Luanshya Copper Mines Plc. in September 2006 at a price of US$33.55 million. Following the sale, Luanshya Copper Mines Plc. is working on a feasibility study to develop the deposit into a mine.

Mr Chairperson, exploration activities by private mining companies outside the Copperbelt increased. These include: Mkushi Copper Project and Petauke Sasare Project managed by Katanga Resources Limited; Chongwe Gold Project, the Lusaka East Copper/Gold Project in Lusaka East managed by Zambezi Resources Limited; and the Kariba Uranium Project by Omega Corporation Limited in the Southern Province. The results from these exploration works are promising and may result in the development of new mines.

Growth of the sector has continued to be concentrated in the large-scale mining sub-sector. My ministry is hopeful that the small–scale mining sub–sector will soon improve. This will be due to Government interventions which include the Mining Sector Revolving Fund and the Gemstone Exchange. It will be because of the coming on board of investors with sound financial base and good management systems. The ministry continued to run the Mining Sector Revolving Fund in order to compliment the European Union Credit Facility and the Small Loan Facility that were established under the Mining Sector Diversification Programme (MSDP). As I already indicated, these programmes are also assisting our small–scale women miners.
Sir, progress was made in improving the regulatory role of my ministry. During the year 2006, the ministry initiated the process of reviewing both the Mining Policy and the Mines and Minerals Act (1995) to bring them in line with the positive change in the mining environment.

In addition, due to the growing interest in uranium mining, the Government started developing the Uranium Mining Regulations in 2006. Although Zambia has a well developed mining industry with established mining laws and corresponding regulations, there is no history of uranium mining in the country. As a result, the current mining regulations do not have adequate provisions that are specific for the mining, processing, handling and export of uranium ores and other radioactive minerals and mineral products.

Mr Chairman, the ministry continued to implement some of the programmes that commenced in 2005 which included the establishment of computerised cadastre and geographical information system. The benefits will include:

(a) speedy issuance of mining rights;

(b) elimination of boundary overlaps of mining plots; and

(c) increased confidence and investment in mining.

The geological mapping of Mwense District at a scale of 1:100,000 continued and one degree sheet will be completed in 2007. The investigations on oil and gas occurrences in the North-Western Province were also carried out. The results revealed a strong possibility of the presence of oil and gas in the area. Unfortunately, I see Hon. Kakoma thinking he will be another Sheikh very soon. This, Mr Chairman, necessitated the setting up of a Ministerial Petroleum Committee to formulate policies and guidelines relating to the development of the petroleum or oil industry in Zambia.

Mr Chairman, the mining sector, due to the intensified inspections by the Mines Safety Department recorded a decline in mine fatal accidents. Fatalities declined from eighty in 2005 to seventeen in 2006 while the Mines Safety Department reportable accidents reduced from 329 in 2005 to 231 in 2006.

Mr Chairman, considering the role mining plays in the national economy, it is the intention of my ministry to continue implementing programmes in 2007 that will further enhance the growth of the mining sector. These are:

(1) Strengthening the institutional capacity of the Ministry;

(2) Carrying out policy, legal and institutional reforms;

(3) Conducting post-privatisation monitoring;

(4) Operating the mining sector revolving fund;

(5) Undertaking geological mapping of Luapula and Northern Provinces at a scale of 1:100,000;

(6) Conducting exploration for oil and gas using the MPOG method in the Western Province, Chama District and in the Zambezi Valley;

(7) Conducting exploration for gemstones, industrial and agricultural minerals;

(8) Establishing and operationalising the cadastre and geographical information system;

(9) Monitoring of seismic activities; and

(10) Intensifying investment promotion.

Mr Chairman, given the outlook of the sector in 2007, my ministry is committed to ensuring the achievement of the desired results. Growth of the sector is expected to accelerate in 2007 through a huge injection of foreign capital in the country. Accelerated growth of the sector is also anticipated to come from exploration and mining of uranium once the uranium mining regulations are in place.

The future of the small-scale sub-sector is also promising especially with increased access to credit through the Mining Sector Revolving Fund, the small loan facility managed by Pride Zambia and the establishment and operationalisation of the gemstone exchange.

Mr Chairman, increased activities in the mining sector will entail more and intensive work for the ministry and, therefore, I would like to appeal to this august House to approve the 2007 Estimates of Expenditure for my ministry without much ado.

Mr Chairman, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chanda (Kankoyo): Mr Chairman, the hon. Minister has just been giving figures of fatal accidents and reportable accidents. To me, these figures are still unacceptable, hence safety in the mining sector is still a matter of concern.

Mr Chairman, most investors are taking shortcuts in order to meet their set targets. In so doing, they end up endangering the lives of miners. The Mines Safety Department needs to be supported in order to reduce the accidents on the mines. Inspectors of machinery should be equipped with transport of their own. It is a common factor that when an accident happens, the inspectors wait for transport from the mine owners and thereafter, are given lunch. I wonder what kind of reports they end up writing.

Mr Chairman, in the first place, they ask for transport because they do not have their own transport and when they get to the site, they are given lunch and at the end of the day, are expected to write a report that will conflict the mine owners. I doubt if we are going to achieve anything. I would like to suggest that we start supporting the Mine Safety Department by providing them with transport and resources so that they can do a proper job when there is an accident in the mines. It is common sense that when production is high, even the amount of waste that will be generated will be high.

Mr Chairman, I now come to pollution. Pollution in my constituency has reached alarming levels. As I am speaking now, I am reliably informed that dogs have started dying because of sulphur dioxide. There is the Environmental Council of Zambia. I am discussing the Environmental Council of Zambia in connection with what they are supposed to do on the mines and how they can help to control pollution.

Mr Chairman, when we went on recess, I visited the offices of the Environmental Council of Zambia to report the levels of pollution in my constituency, but up to now, I have not had a report from them. I am told each time that they have visited Mufulira and Kankoyo Constituency in particular, but nothing has been done. What is happening is that people can hardly grow anything. Houses in Kankoyo with iron roofing sheets are eroded.

Mr Chairman, I wonder whether we are developing a culture of producing more copper at the expense of the lives of the people in Zambia. Somebody will say there was pollution even when ZCCM was in existence. I agree, but the effects and the levels were manageable. In Mufulira, we now have what they are calling the icier smelter. This smelter is capable of emitting sulphur dioxide that I have said can kill dogs.

Mr Chairperson, we have had a situation where people who are steam weak collapse when they come in contact with these fumes. I was made to understand that early this year, Mopani Copper Mines (MCM) would be able to convert those fumes at a ratio of 40 per cent to 60 per cent. This means that they will be able to capture 60 per cent and what will be discharged in the air will be 40 per cent. However, up to now, the people of Kankoyo are being tortured by the effects of sulphur dioxide.

Mr Chairperson, as earlier indicated, there is the issue now of eroded roofing sheets. Most of the people in my constituency do not work. Who is going to replace these roofing sheets? The ones who are producing sulphur dioxide, the Mopani Copper Mines, when you talk to them, they say they are not concerned and are not involved.

Mr Chairperson, we are inviting investors and there is nothing wrong in people investing and respecting the people residing in the area they have invested. The attitude that I see from Mopani Copper Mines is far from respecting the residents of Kankoyo.

Mr Chairperson, I do not want to continue because my handle for the hammer has been broken so I rest.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muyanda (Sinazongwe): Thank you, Mr Chairperson, I wish to thank you for allowing me to catch your eye in the midst of other indicators who wanted to debate on the mining sector.

Mr Chairperson, it would be wrong for a senior parliamentarian like me not to mention that, the Government has made a tremendous process of encouraging investors in copper mining.

Hon. Government Members:  Hear, hear!

Mr Muyanda: In the process of commending them, I wish to point out that they have neglected coal mining in the Southern Province. At the moment, Maamba Coal Mine is in a financial dilemma. Maamba Coal Mine used to produce as much as over 30,000 metric tonnes of coal per month, but this time, production is almost grinding to a halt. Why have you neglected the Maamba Coal Mine? There are even no small-scale mining companies apart from one small corium from the Chinese colleagues, who have come here to support us, and I say, thank you for bringing them, at least, there is something of coal moving out of the huge deposits that are along the Gwembe Valley. Without coal, all the copper ore that is being produced from the Lumwana and other areas of the Copperbelt, which has to be refined and processed, will not be processed. Where will you get the raw material to process the ore if you do not pay attention to the coal deposits that are lying in the Maamba and Sinazongwe areas? The whole belt stretches from Sinamalima right into Binga, Zimbabwe, Wankie. All that is one geological belt. It is a huge seam of coal. Why are we not exploiting it? In the Ministerial Statement, a very senior Minister of Finance and National Planning, acting Minister of Mines and Minerals Development at the same time, has clearly stated that there are a lot of copper activities that are taking place on the Copprbelt. Indeed, we appreciate the job the Government is doing. What about coal? Are you aware that the coal overburden, and I am speaking from point of knowledge and skill of coal mining, can be used for tarring our roads? There mountains and mountains of overburden coal lying at Maamba Coal Mine and I am appealing to this Government to exploit it. This is a listening Government, I have been with it for the past five years and this is my sixth year.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muyanda: I challenge anybody who says it is not a listening Government.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muyanda: This time, I am sure that I have raised this point of utilising the coal overburden in Maamba and they will take it up actively and seriously.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muyanda: Mr Chairperson, when a serious and reasonable point from a senior Member of Parliament like me is raised, the Government which is not idle and is working will act on it. The overburden is lying about all over and is big and is burning. If you go to Maamba Coal Mine, you will see huge bellows of smoke. It is all money which can be used into making or processing bitumen which is missing seriously in this country.

Those who know the processing of oil know that it can be extracted from the Zambezi belt. It is not only looking at bitumen alone I have stretched my technical thinking into the export zones of coal. The Congo DR desperately needs our coal. Malawi needs our coal and our industries desperately need our coal, but in the policy statement, shortly presented by the acting hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development, no mention is made about coal. That is not fair. It is not only unfair, but let us also look at the people who are suffering at Maamba Collieries. Some of them have been retrenched, some have died, some of hypertension and others of all these common diseases that we know about because of unemployment. This is another area which the Government should look into very actively so that to the 7 per cent GDP being targeted, the coal industry can give a substantial in put.

Mr Chairperson, waffling about things a person does not know is not right.

I thank you forgiving me this chance to debate this vote, Sir.{mospagebreak}

Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Thank you, Mr Chairperson. I would like to talk about Sub-head 1, Programme 09, Activity 01 – Post-Privatisation Monitoring Operations – K90,360,000. From the time the Government started privatising the companies in the mining industry, there has been a committee which is called Privatisation Monitoring Committee. This committee is there to ensure that whatever was put in place for sales and the development agreement is adhered to by the investors.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to talk about what is happening in the mining industry. First and foremost, I would like to ask that, after the privatisation of the mines, what are the benefits? I would like to thank Mopani and KCM who are doing fine with regard to malaria prevention. That is a benefit to the ordinary Zambians or workers.

Secondly, I would like to talk about the sales and development agreement. The Government and the investors had agreed that when they come on board, they have to come with a specific number to be employed as expatriates.

You may be aware that we are wondering whether the Privatisation Monitoring Committee exists.

Sir, last month, I talked about the Non-Ferrous Company Africa (NFCA). It is common knowledge that when they come on board, there is a position of Human Resource Manager, which is supposed to be given to a Zambian, but the Indians have brought their fellow Indians. The committee is there watching.

Hon. PF Member: The Chinese!

Mr D. Mwila: Even the Chinese.

Mr Chairperson, are they monitoring what is happening in the mining industry? The answer is no. In the same agreement, they agreed with the Government on the total number of workers who would be retained in that particular company. Today, the committee is doing nothing about monitoring the happenings in the mining industry.

Sir, again in the Sales and Development Agreement, they had agreed that once they come on board, they would make sure that they repair roads in the mining industry and run the clinics. However, if you go round all the constituencies in the mining industry, you will find that there are no benefits to that effect. I would like to implore the Government to push that committee to make sure that it starts monitoring what is happening in these mines.

Mr Chairperson, lastly, as regards pension schemes, after the privatisation of the mines, which we are talking about, in the same agreements, the Government had given leeway to the investors to come with their own pension schemes. As a result, Zambian pension schemes, such as the Mukuba Pension Schemes, are dead because of the agreement, which was signed by our Government and the investors.

Sir, in these mines all the workers are crying because the pensions which have been brought by the investors are no better than our pension schemes. There is a need for this committee to go round and check what is happening.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Bonshe (Mufumbwe): Mr Chairperson, I thank you very much for according me this chance to support the Vote on the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development.

Sir, I would like to thank the New Deal Administration for putting up an enabling environment, which has attracted a lot of mining activities, more especially in the North Western Province. We are proud of the MMD Government and the people of the North Western Province are promising to give the New Deal Administration another chance to lead even beyond 2011.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bonshe: I am sure that even the two seats, which we lost was just by mistake. As I am talking, maybe Hon. Kakoma is contemplating crossing.


Mr Bonshe: By 2011 …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

Mr Bonshe: Mr Chairperson, before business was suspended, I was thanking the New Deal Administration for the development in the mines in the North Western Province. I mentioned that Hon. Kakoma may lose his seat if he does not cross over because we are now digging oil from his door step. All the people from that area, most certainly, are going to rally behind the New Deal Administration as a way of appreciating the good gesture.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bonshe: I would like to assure the House that the people of the North Western Province, in appreciation, have promised to give the New Deal Administration another fifty years.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bonshe: Until after sixty years, that is when other political parties will get votes from the North Western Province.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bonshe: Mr Chairperson, the mining industry has brought employment in our area and as a result, we have bigger towns emerging ino the North Western Province. This is a very good development and we have benefited a lot.

Sir, with regard to the Government giving mineral royalties to investors for explorations, they should inform the area Member of Parliament, the chief and probably, even the Provincial Minister because they do not know about those people and what activity is going on. All we see are trucks passing by …

Hon. PF Members: Hammer!

Mr Bonshe: My appeal to the Government is that when they give an exploration licence to an investor, they should tell them to report to the chiefs and the area Member of Parliament. The District Commissioners and councillors ought to know what activity is taking place because some of the areas they go to exploit are preserved and cannot be visited anyhow. We have got our own traditional heritage which is to be respected. Some areas have to be respected that way. It is important that the investors are told to co-operate with the local people, especially the royal highnesses. They tend to be rude to the chiefs because they did not pass through them. As a result, sometimes this mining activity could only last two to three years. During this period, the company would have damaged the roads in the area. It is in this respect that we should meet them and agree on certain things which they have to do. I also urge the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development to send their inspectors to prospecting companies to see to it that they are in compliance with the regulations set aside for them and ensure that they keep the traditional respect. In most cases, in our own traditional culture when you are entering a chief’s area, you have to pay homage to the chief. This is not corruption, but a show of respect. This is what we want the mining investors to do. Otherwise, we have appreciated how they are operating. They have assisted us by creating employment and wealth in our country.

Long Live the New Deal Government which has brought an enabling environment …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! As much as the Chairperson understands, I have to advise the House that there should be no slogans in the Chamber.

Will the hon. Member for Mufumbwe continue, please.

Mr Bonshe: Mr Chairman, thank you very much for the guidance. What I was saying is that the New Deal Government has brought confidence in the investors. Investment in mining needs a lot of money and you can only do this if you have confidence in the Government that it will last longer. In this case, the MMD Government has brought an enabling environment which is going to stay. That is why we have a lot of investors coming into the country. If they know that it is going tomorrow, they cannot come because other people will also bring in their different ideas. Mining is important for this country because the people will benefit.

With these few remarks, I thank you, Sir.

Mr Milupi (Luena): Thank you, Mr Chairman, for giving me this opportunity to debate on the vote for the mining industry.

Mr Chairman, I think it is true to say that for the last seventy-five years since 1932, the development of this country is dependent largely on the mining industry. Today, even as we sit in this Parliament, the Budget presented by the hon. Minister is predicated mainly on the revenues arising from the mining industry. All the growth that is put in there, all our ambition to achieve the Vision 2030 and so on is premised on the mining industry doing well. Therefore, it is in the interest of all of us to have the mining industry do well. Indeed, there are problems on the horizon. The mining industry is not what it should be and, therefore, it is right and proper that we should address some of these issues.

Let me start at the outset on the gem industry, mainly the emerald industry in this country. It is said that 20 per cent of all emeralds in the world emanate from this country, and yet this industry is so disorganised that in his speech, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning did not even see it necessary to put any revenue arising from that industry. I think it is time that we made this industry generate revenue for this country.

The other area of concern in the mining industry is the way we treat our Zambian labour force. I think it is time that we addressed these issues. Zambia’s return of labour in the mining industry has or demonstrated great propensity to disadvantage itself in this area. We have not protected our own citizens whom we have trained at great expense and whose loyalty to this country cannot be doubted.

Mr Mtonga: Zoona.

Mr Milupi: Mr Chairman, we continue to pay lip service to the concept of equal-pay-for-work of equal value and we have opened our borders to all sorts of characters, some of whom possess no relevant qualification, yet they still come here and take up employment opportunities that should be reserved for our own people. Worse still, we have persevered with the concept of more advantageous pay for the so-called expatriate than our own citizens. Casualisation has also crept in with its off shoots of lack of security and exploitation.

Let me say at this point, Mr Chairman, that investors investing in any country for the sole purpose of generating profits from their investments which they then repatriated to their countries by way of dividends. They do not invest to provide employment opportunities for their own nationals. That should not be the case. I am speaking as an engineer for many years and also as a management professional. I can advise that there is no skill whatsoever in the Zambian mining industry that should be the quiz of expatriates. Over the years, through the once thriving Zambianisation Programme and also the manpower development programmes, it was so entrenched in the mining industry in those days. We have developed high quality, qualified and experienced professionals as well as technicians and artisans. These Zambians are now marginalised. The fact that some of them have left the shores or borders of this country to seek greener pastures elsewhere is testimony to the lopsided treatment that they have received in their own country. I will give you an example. When the winding plants in the whole country were inspected by Zambians, the safety records on our winders were higher than that of South Africa.

Mr Chairman, let me leave that issue and come to the mainstay of the mining industry. As I have said, it was the bedlock upon which the development of this country was premised, but as I stand here, I am filled with the spirit of déja vu, a feeling of we have been there before.

Let me remind this House that in 1964, Zambia was thought to have been a baby born with a copper spoon in her mouth. We inherited a thriving economy based on high copper prices with virtually no external debt. In terms of wealth, we were ahead of the countries that today constitute the tiger economies. We did not use these revenues from the high copper prices to expand the economy, especially in the productive sectors, such as, agriculture. Inevitably, the copper price collapsed and this started in the early 1970s and this coupled with the energy crisis in the same period spelt doom for our economy resulting in the rapid rise in our debt portfolio and its attendant problems that we are so familiar with.

Mr Chairman, thankfully God our heavenly Father, in his infinite mercies has again, at this point in time, given us unprecedented high copper prices and a booming mining industry. The forgiving of our debt means we are virtually external debt free. Are we yet again going to repeat the mistakes of our predecessors by failing to take advantage of these high copper prices? We have to take advantage of these high copper prices to grow our economy in a sustainable manner.

Mr Chairman, most of the goals, as I have said, in our Fifth National Development Plan and also our attempt to achieve the Vision 2030 are predicated on the performance of the mining sector.

However, the history of copper trading from 1930s to date attests to the volatility and elasticity of the copper price. The high copper price that we are enjoying will collapse sooner rather than later. It will inevitably collapse for the following reasons:

(i) when the copper price was as low as US $1600 per tonne in the 1990s, many mines in North and South America and elsewhere were shut down and were put under care and maintenance; and

(ii) new mines were not opened, but now that it is boom time, these mines that were put previously put on care and maintenance are being re-opened and new mines are opening elsewhere including Zambia.

This on the supply side will lead to an over supply situation …

Dr Chituwo: On a point of order, Sir!

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised!

Dr Chituwo: Mr Chairman, I am very sorry to interrupt my son. Is the hon. Member of Parliament who is debating so well in order not to only refer to his notes, but to religiously read his notes?

The Deputy Chairperson: I am sure the hon. Member who is debating will take that point of order into account. I am sure that the hon. Member can equally debate nicely without being seen to read his notes.

Can the hon. Member continue, please.

Mr Milupi: Mr Chairman, these are important matters that must be stated in such a manner that this listening Government can pay attention to what needs to be said so that they have no excuse for not doing the correct things.

Mr Chairman, we are talking about the high copper prices that, on the supply side, we are going to have more copper produced and this will lead to an over supply situation and on the demand side, when you have high copper prices what happens is that you have increased research in substitutes and this lowers the demand for copper and when this happens, the copper price drops.

Mr Chairman, let us look at what other countries that had natural resources like we have copper have done. Look at the Middle East, God blessed them with oil and what have they done with that oil? If you go to Ubadabi or Dubai; you will see these massive structures and thriving economies because they used their natural resources wisely. The point that I am making is that we should also, at this moment in time use wisely the only natural resources that God gave us.

Mr Chairman, let me refer to a biblical story. In the days of Joseph, God showed him a vision. Through that vision he was asked to set up barns in every corner of the land during the seven years of plenty because when the days of famine came, the land of Egypt and the surrounding areas were fed.

Mr Chairman, let me also say that this country needs to take advantage of the boom in our mining industry and prepare for when this will not be the case. I see Hon. Magande was trying to raise a point of order. Let me refer to him as our own hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning that: Peter Ng’andu, son of Magande, you are today our Joseph, arise and set up barns in every part of the land and then go into the land and gather from the fruits of the bowels and those who profit from the fruits of the bowels of our land and fill these barns. Behold the days of famine shall be upon us.

Mr Chairman, what do I mean? We should stop making excuses for the mines. We are a sovereign State and the expression windfall tax does not start in this country. It comes from where they come from. I say this to illustrate a point that the raising of royalties from 0.6 per cent to 3 per cent is welcome, but is not sufficient. Not long ago in the 1970s and so on, the royalties in this country was 5 per cent. Therefore, why can we not target 5 per cent?

Mr Chairman, if we reverted to 5 per cent from the 3 per that Hon. Magande is giving us, it will result in a production of 750,000 tonnes if we are told that we will be done shortly and on a copper price of 7,000 tonnes per tonne, it will give us extra revenue of US $105 million.

Ms Njapau: On a point of order, Sir!

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised!

Ms Njapau: Mr Chairman, is the hon. Member in order to call Hon. Magande, son of Magande and yet there was a woman and today is the Women’s Day? I need a serious ruling on that one, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: It is important, Hon. Milupi, you are disturbing other sectors of our community here, but it is really understood that Mr Magande is son of Mr Magande and obviously there must have been a Mrs Magande somewhere.

Can the hon. Member continue.


Mr Milupi: Mr Chairman, I apologise to the mother of Hon. Magande for not mentioning her. The point that we are making is that with this extra revenue, over US $100 million which is also over K500 billion is significant and when we debate here, almost at every point, when any ministry comes up, be it police, agriculture, we shall all be talking about wanting more money. Therefore, what we are saying here is that here is an opportunity to raise more money. What we want in this country is not to miss this opportunity of the high copper price. On the issue of oil, I am glad in his speech today the hon. Minister made reference to the other areas where there are oil opportunities. Therefore, let us see this using the Mining Department to make sure that we develop the country and when we do that, we will be able to move this country forward and all other issues that we are talking about such as lack of proper facilities in education and infrastructure development shall fall in place.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kakoma (Zambezi West): Mr Chairman, I thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the vote on the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development.

Mr Chairman, Zambia is in its poor state today, primarily because of mismanaging the mining sector. We are poor today because we are failing to realise all the revenue that should be going to the Treasury from the mining sector.

In the 1970s, the contribution of the mining sector to the Government revenue was well in excess of 55 per cent. Today, if calculated, the contribution of the mining sector to the Treasury is below .00 per cent something. In this year’s Budget, we are talking about a mineral royalty tax of K77 billion as contribution to the Treasury. This is negligible because if in the 1970s the contribution of the mining sector was more than half of the Government revenue, we are supposed to be talking about a figure of about K6 trillion as contribution of the mining sector to the Government revenue since the current Budget is now around K12 trillion.

Mr Chairperson, because of our failure to make the mining industry develop this country and be of benefit to the people, we have now become a laughing stock to other countries in Africa. Just two weeks ago, the South African Broadcasting Corporation (SABC) were running a documentary on Channel SABC 3 which covers the whole of Africa, where Zambia was being portrayed as a country of very poor people who are failing to mobilise resources from their rich mining industry to develop themselves.

They went round our compounds showing all the poverty and also all the mines. That was very damaging to our country, but we cannot blame the outsiders for portraying that image. It is we ourselves who have mismanaged the copper industry to the extent where the poor workers of Zambia are contributing more to the Government Treasury than the rich mining industry.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kakoma: Even in this year’s Budget, workers are contributing more than K2 trillion when the mining industry is only contributing K77 billion. This should not be allowed.

Mr Chairperson, all this is arising from the deals entered into by the Government and investors in the mining industry. These are deals that are coming under the concept such as development agreements. These development agreements are enriching the pockets of the investors at the expense of the poor Zambians.

Sir, you will recall that in these development agreements, it is clearly stated that whenever there is an increase in copper prices and in the gain in copper earnings, there shall be a sharing mechanism of the earnings arising from the copper price increase.

In this year’s Budget, there is no contribution from that revenue from copper sharing which has been indicated. This means that even if we are gaining in copper sales, the Zambian Government is not anticipating collecting anything from there. This is either a result of laxity on the part of the Government or because we are failing to enforce the development agreements. If we are failing to enforce them, it shows the levels of inefficiency and incompetence in the Government.

Mr Mukanga: Hear, hear!

Mr Kakoma: We are supposed to be raising revenue from the money that is being earned by this country by the copper mines as a result of the increase in copper prices.

Mr Chairperson, I was very happy and shouting at the top of my voice when the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning indicated to this House that he was going to increase the mineral royalty tax from 0.6 per cent to 3 per cent. He was applauded. However, it is now becoming clear that in this year’s Budget, if you are going to get money at that rate of 3 per cent, we are going to have money in excess of K500 billion as contribution to the Budget. This is not happening and what you will get is only K77 billion.

This means that the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning did not mean well when he come to this House to tell us that he is increasing the mineral royalty tax from 0.6 per cent to 3 per cent. In fact, he is already scheming to bring in Bills and laws to this House to make the development agreements above the law. We cannot have Bills entered into boardrooms and we cannot have situations where development agreements are above the laws of this country.

Sir, I can assure you that I will be one of those who will put up a fierce fight when he brings those Bills to make these development agreements above the law because it will mean that this Parliament will be used to legitimise the plunder of this country’s resources forever. We will become poorer and the rich people that are in the mining sector will become richer. That cannot be allowed. When that subject comes, we shall make amendment to that Bill to make everybody in the mining sector contribute the 3 per cent mineral royalty tax to the Treasury.

Mr Chairperson, this brings me to the question of the benefits of local communities from the mining activities that are happening in this country. It is sad that the local people who are hosting these mines appear not to be benefiting from the activities in the mining sector. They are poorer today than they were before the mines were established.

Sir, we would like the local people to benefit from the activities in the mining sector. Part of the money that is coming from the mining industry must be ploughed back in the local communities so that the local people can benefit. Especially for the new mines that are being opened, we want to make a difference. We have seen the chaos that has happened on the Copperbelt where after the many years of mining, the people are still complaining of bad roads, poor health facilities, poor educational facilities and so on and so forth. The only things that have remained on the Copperbelt are big pits …

Mr Mukanga: And sulphur dioxide.

Mr Kakoma: … and sulphur dioxide and all the environmental degradation. We do not want that to happen to the new mines that are being opened in the North Western Province. We want the local people to benefit in terms of good road infrastructure, good rail network, good hospitals and schools, good electricity network and many others.

At the moment, although we are talking about the North Western Province being the next Copperbelt, nothing in terms of infrastructure development is being done in the area. Sir, even in this year’s Budget there is nothing to show in terms of infrastructure development that this country places the North-Western Province a priority or the next economic giant that would save this country.

Mr Chairperson, even the road that connects all the seven districts in the North-Western Province, the Mutanda-Chavuma Road has miserably been neglected.

Mr Mukanga: Shame!

Mr Kakoma: This year, we are talking about tarring 15 to 17 kilometres of that road. The Mutanda-Lumwana Road which leads to Mwinilunga has been neglected. Yet, we are expecting that road to lead to the world’s largest copper mining industry. How do we expect to develop that like that? We are talking about the neglected Mutanda/Chavuma Road which will lead to the oil mines in Kabompo, Chavuma and Zambezi Districts. How do you start mining oil in areas which have no proper infrastructure? This shows the lack of foresight and planning of this Government.

Mr Chairperson, the local people must be given preference in terms of employment in these new mines. At least, 70 per cent of the jobs must go to the local people. We will not want people from outside to come and take over the jobs that even local people can do. We want the local people to be given preference, especially that we have the new Economic Empowerment Act.

Sir, I am surprised that the local people have been largely sidelined and are not consulted over the oil exploration that is going on in the North Western Province. The local leaders, the hon. Members of Parliament, the councilors and the chiefs are also not being consulted. They do not even know what is happening to the process of tendering for this oil exploration. If this is the approach that the Government is going to take, then we, the owners of the oil …


Mr Kakoma: … are going to put our feet down. I am saying so because we have seen that in Nigeria, despite them exporting oil, the Delta Region and other regions in that country are the poorest. Therefore, if the local people are not involved, we shall not agree to that kind of investment. I think that we must be involved.

Mr Chairperson, we have also learnt a great deal from what these multi-national companies can do to a country. For example, in Tanzania, where they are mining gold, the local people were displaced from their area to give way to a company to mine gold. These people have not even been compensated and are suffering. We now want to put it on record that the local people who are going to be affected by these mining developments must be adequately compensated so that they lead a normal life. These people will be displaced from their villages for many years and we would not want to let them suffer like that. 

Mr Chairperson, lastly, although we are emphasising on bringing foreign investors to conduct some explorations, this is totally unnecessary. The little exploration in Zambezi, Kabompo and Chavuma was done by our own Geological Survey Department in Zambia, but under very difficult circumstances. I was there when they went to explore in Zambezi and these people were using a very dilapidated vehicle. They had to struggle with their vehicle because it would sink in the sand. Despite all those difficulties, these people managed to bring results, which we are now all happy about.

Mr Chairperson, the point is that if we gave our Geological Survey Department both money and the equipment, we would do a better job. We would not even need to start begging foreign countries to come and carry out the oil exploration for us. The danger is that when these foreigners come and we give them the exploration licences, eventually, they would get the mining licences. Once they have done that, the local people would be pushed out of their land because those mining licences will belong to these investors.

I thank you, Sir.

The Minister for Eastern Province (Mr Nkhata): Mr Chairperson, thank you for according me a chance to debate this vote. Through its acts, I think this Government means well to the people of Zambia.  The addition of the mines in the North Western Province is a clear manifestation that this Government means well to the people of Zambia. In the hon. Minister’s debate, he mentioned the fact that they are making preparations to open a mine in every province where there are mineral deposits. They will start with the Luapula Province, where there is copper. That will be the first mine to be opened. By doing so, they will create job opportunities for the people in the country. There will also be an addition of revenue that the Government will raise from the new mines that will be opened in the Luapula Province.

Sir, in the hon. Minister’s speech, I also heard that this would be extended to the Eastern Province because of the copper deposits that have been discovered in Petauke District. I believe that is also a good move that the Government has made. Each and every hon. Member in this House has been talking about insufficient money allocated to every vote when this country has a lot of mineral deposits. I feel that the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development at this juncture should start thinking of working seriously towards the opening of the mines in the different parts of this country. That is the only way we can be able to employ our brothers and sisters that are roaming the streets. Therefore, as a Government, we need to do something so that we create more employment opportunities for our brothers and sisters. 

Mr Chairman, this country has a lot of minerals. I think other countries admire our country. They are saying that they would like come to our country so that they can mine the minerals that we have in our country. For instance, in Chama where I come from, there are a lot of mineral deposits. I was happy the week before last week when the District Commissioner told me that he had received visitors who said t they were mineral explorers. These people were there for almost fourteen days, but to date, we have not heard the results from their examinations. The people who worked with the District Commissioner indicated that there was something good in that district.

Sir, I am therefore, happy to hear from the hon. Minister that mines will be opened in the areas where there are mineral deposits.  If this was done quickly, it would help our country develop. We cannot be calling Zambia a poor country when we have a lot of minerals. Our friends are laughing at us and we need to change. I am afraid the hon. Minister was saying that we cannot start mining uranium until the uranium regulations are put in place. I suspect that in Chama, where I come from, uranium could be there. We should have these uranium regulations done quickly so that we start mining. We should not waste time when we want our country to develop. I hope and believe that the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development is listening to me.

Dr Machungwa: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Dr Machungwa: Mr Chairperson, I am worried with the debate of my cousin who is a Deputy Minister. Is he in order to debate like a Backbencher when he is part of the Government? Which Government is he going to call upon to do those things when he should be doing them? Only us Backbenchers are supposed to debate like that.  Is he in order or does he want to go and sit on that bench with my hon. Colleagues behind?

The Deputy Chairperson: Actually, that point of order is relevant. Towards the end, hon. Deputy Minister, you were debating as if you are not part of the Government. Could you continue and take that point of order into account.

Mr Nkhata: Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank you for protecting me. He is just trying to argue so that I should put more power to it. Do not worry my brother, I am a Zambian. Therefore, being a Zambian, I must say what I think would help all of us.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!  Could the hon. Deputy Minister leave that issue and come to what he wants to say because you are part of the Executive.

Mr Nkhata: Mr Chairperson, there are times one wants to talk …

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!


The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Order! Hon. Deputy Minister, please do not qualify. Leave that part and come to the subject on the Floor.

Mr Nkhata: Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank you for your guidance.

Sir, I know that this Government is a listening Government.


Mr Nkhata: I am aware of that. This is a listening Government and wherever these minerals are plans are there to explore them.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkhata: Sir, honestly speaking, the Government has put plans in place and has already deployed many people to many areas to ensure that exploration of minerals throughout the country is properly done and well managed.

Mr Chairperson, the high copper prices have come about as a result of good leadership. In other countries, there is gold, but their economy is very poor because of Government policies which are not supported by the outside world.

This Government has good polices and as a result, we are able to earn good foreign exchange because of good copper prices on the world market.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkhata: Therefore, it is not just a matter of copper prices going up, but also of the good governance. This is why we have gained respect internationally.

Mr Chairperson, I hope and believe that this will continue and that our country will be able to earn good money through mineral deposits that are found in all the provinces throughout our country.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr M. Mwale): Mr Chairperson, I rise to seek the support of the House for Head 14. In so doing, my contribution is going to be brief and to the point.

Mr Chairperson, I am so sure that the hon. Member for Kankoyo and the hon. Member for Lusaka Central were born in the age of the slide rule but no matter how much ...

Dr Scott rose on a point of order.

The Deputy Chairperson:  I have not allowed you to rise a point of order. You stood up before I gave you the Floor. You can raise your point of order.

Dr Scott: Mr Chairperson, I am just wondering whether the Deputy Minister of Mines and Minerals is n order to purport to know anything about me whatsoever.

The Deputy Chairperson: Sorry, this is one of the rare occasions where the Chair did not get that point of order. Unfortunately, it has been overtaken by events.

Could the hon. Minister continue.


Mr M. Mwale: Mr Chairperson, the point I am trying to make is that no mater how much they loved the slide rule, they can no longer continue using it because we are now in the computer age.

Mr Chairperson, this is main reason this Government has invited investors who are going to add value to the current mines infrastructure.


Mr M. Mwale: Mr Chairperson, the hon. Member for Kankoyo will agree with me that the smelter in Mufulira has existed from time immemorial and that so-called centre has always been produced. However, the Government has invited investors who are very innovative. The icer smelter that the hon. Member referred to has a complement of an acid plant that is in the process of being commissioned and there are only teasing problems. The smelter that we are talking about will be a thing of the past in Mufulira.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr M. Mwale: Mr Chairperson, what am I talking about?

Mr Nsanda: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Nsanda: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Deputy Minister in order to mislead the nation by saying that when they put the acid plant in place, there will be centre coming out. I was born in Kitwe and the acid plant had been there for years before the hon. Minister even knew about acid plant. I started working in the mines and ZCCM in particular, from 1972. The acid plant failed to eradicate …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! What is your point of order?

Mr Nsanda: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Deputy Minister in order to mislead the nation that the acid plant can eliminate the centre?

The Deputy Chairperson: Well, you are expressing an opinion which can be rebutted by the experts.

Could the hon. Deputy Minister continue.

Mr M. Mwale: Mr Chairperson, the hon. Member who has just raised that point of order is my father-in-law. He is just worried about his daughter at my home, but she is safe.


Mr M. Mwale: Mr Chairperson, in Nchanga, KCM is putting up a new smelter. With that new smelter, there will be a complement of an acid plant. This means that the new investors whom we have now have environmental concerns at heart.

Hon. PF Members: Aah!

Mr M. Mwale: Sir, the centre and the sulphur dioxide emissions that we talked about will be reduced. I am sure that is the word that he is looking for.

Sir, the hon. Member for Kankoyo talked about the 60:40 per cent ratio of sulphur dioxide emissions. This is not happening now. I would therefore like to assure this House that with the commissioning of the acid plant in Mufulira and the already commissioned new acid plant in Nkana, the roast plant for the cobalt plant in Nkana, sulphur dioxide emissions have been reduced.

Mr Chairperson, the new investors brought in new technologies. In Mufulira, we never knew what leaching was, but now, there is a leach plant in Mufulira.


Mr M. Mwale: Although others may argue, what they only knew were open stops and not leaching.


Mr M. Mwale: Sir, hon. Members who are speaking do not know the difference between in situ leaching and leaching. What is happening in Nchanga is tailing leaching, but in Mufulira, we are talking of in situ leaching of the ore. That is how we are producing copper.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! The Chair cannot listen. I cannot hear. Please, I am interested in hearing what he is saying.

Mr M. Mwale: Mr Chairperson, I am surprised that an hon. Member can stand up, argue and doubt the benefits of privatisation.

Mr Kanyanyamina: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

 Before I grant you that point of order, it only shows the Chair that we seem to be exhausted in debating this subject.


The Deputy Chairperson: Therefore, I will allow him to finish.


The Deputy Chairperson: Since I can hear a lot of murmuring from my left, I will only allow one hon. Member from my left to debate, before the Hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development winds up.

Can you continue?


Mr M.  Mwale: Mr Chairperson, the benefits of privatisation …

Mr Kanyanyamina: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kanyanyamina: Mr Chairperson, is it in order for the hon. Deputy Minister to debate from a wrong seat and why is he hiding his identity?


The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The Chair allowed him to debate from that seat. If you may recall, the Hon Minister of Mines and Minerals is not around and so, the Hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning is acting on his behalf. Therefore, it is appropriate that the Hon. Deputy Minister of Mines and Minerals Development sits behind the Minister. Therefore, for this particular case, he is in order.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Long live the Chair!

The Deputy Chairperson: Can you continue?

Mr M. Mwale: Thank you for your protection, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Chairperson, I wonder why a Member can stand up and question the benefits of privatisation. When KCM pulled out of the mines, there was job insecurity on the Copperbelt. As we are talking now, over 50,000 jobs have been created and our people are sure of having those jobs.


Mr D. Mwila: No!

Mr M. Mwale:  Our people are assured of having those jobs. More jobs are being created on the Copperbelt. As I have already mentioned, Mr Chairperson, there is a new smelter and a new acid plant that will be installed in Nchanga and this means increasing manpower to manage those plants.

Sir, the Copperbelt was going to have ghost towns if these private investors had not come in. However, with investment coming in, we know that our mines will continue operating.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr M. Mwale: The life of our mines has been increased because of this increased investment. There has also been investment in exploration. I wish to inform this House that without mineral explorations, the life of mining operations is reduced. However, with increased mineral explorations now, we are so sure, with the increased discoveries, that mining operations will continue for quite some time on the Copperbelt.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr M. Mwale: Mr Chairperson, on the issue of mine safety, I wish to state that this Government is so concerned about the safety of the workers on the Copperbelt. That is why in this year’s Budget, there has been an increase from K211,241 million to K700 million for inspections that will ensure that our people are safe. The mine safety staff will be at those work places to ensure that safety practices are adhered to. That was not there before …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr M. Mwale: … because of the limited resources that we used to have.

Mr Chairperson, on the issue of Maamba Collieries, my hon. Minister stood in this House and assured the House that Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines Investment Holding (ZCCM–IH) is now in control of Maamba Collieries. ZCCM-IH is just looking for an equity partner who can invest in Maamba Collieries, buy new equipment, and improve on that plant so that we can improve on the production of coal. With that, we are so sure that Maamba Collieries will be productive and there will be life in Maamba again. We are just waiting for the time an equity partner will be found to invest in Maamba Collieries.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Ms Imbwae (Lukulu West): Mr Chairperson, in supporting the budget, I just would like to draw the attention of the House to a very serious issue which I have noticed is missing. Fortunately, the hon. Minister in his policy statement mentioned it, but in the budget, there is no budget line. This is the issue of environmental control or environmental management.

Sir, there are three cross-cutting issues that this country has agreed to deal with as a Government, and those three are; HIV/AIDS, gender and environment. From the ministries that we have discussed so far, even to the ministry that we are discussing right now, there is no line that is covering the issue of environment.

I am aware that the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources will deal with that when the time comes. I am also aware that in the other budget lines, HIV/AIDS and gender are mentioned in each of the ministries that we have dealt with, but not environment. It is important that even as we continue to address the issue of poverty reduction, environmental considerations are taken into account very seriously.

Mr Chairperson, there is an allocation on HIV/AIDS and Gender, but there is none in the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development for Environmental Control or Environmental Management or Awareness. We are dealing with issues that have a very serious bearing on environment. We are talking about issues of pollution, the damage that is done to the soil, managing the dumps and the health of the workers, especially when we come to talk about small–scale miners.

Sir, without a budget, not even on training, even if you wanted to slide it in with a gender budget, there is no allocation that is on training women miners on how to manage their mining activities environmentally in order for them to be safe. We cannot dream that from a budget of another ministry, we will manage environmental concerns in the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development. Therefore, it is only important to mention that environment is a cross-cutting issue. Every ministry that has left it out will need to involve and control it in some other way. When we come to the supplementary budget, if we do not see anything coming, I promise to ask for a supplementary vote for environment because it is a cross-cutting issue just as much as gender and HIV/AIDS is.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Magande: Mr Chairperson, thank you for the opportunity given to wind up debate on my ministry. Indeed, as you indicated, Sir, the debate has been very lively which indicates the importance of the subject that is at hand.

It is also obvious that we are very lucky in this House this time, as we have something like seven or eight mining engineers. Therefore, you could hear them arguing on technicalities. While we deal with technicalities, the people out there are concerned about simple things like what Hon. Imbwae has said. Are we polluting the air? Do we have measures to mitigate against these negative issues? Are we giving our people jobs on the mines? Is the Government getting revenue from the mines? Is that revenue going to proper use? These are the issues that the majority of the people are interested in.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to say that many Members who spoke on this Vote obviously support the Government effort in bringing in new investors to salvage the problems of ZCCM. Most of us who are elderly enough, will recall that in January, 2000, when the Anglo-American Corporation Plc. pulled out of this country, everybody felt disillusioned. We thought that the whole mining industry was dead in Zambia and the country was basically going to slide back some twenty years in development. Luckily, we also had a change of Government in 2001 and because of the policies of the new Government, new mining investors have come back and we can see a lot of activities all over the country, not only on the old or traditional Copperbelt, but now we are talking of the North Western Province being the new Copperbelt.

Mr Chairman, if we are able to mine, the 50,000,000 tons of agricultural lime in Mazabuka where I come from, that also could be another Copperbelt of Zambia in the next two years. Therefore, there is a lot of effort that is being made to get all these investors. We would like them to go to Petauke and mine the 3,000,000 tons of phosphate and copper there which is available. Obviously, as my colleague, Hon. Kakoma said, we know most of the preliminary or rough information or data on this because you can easily use computers now and imagery using satellites to know where the minerals are. However, I would like to assure Hon. Kakoma in terms of oil, we are very far from finding it and exploiting it.

Mr Chairman, we need other people to come now who will risk their money to sink boreholes of five kilometres to ten kilometres into the earth to find out if there is oil and you cannot do that Hon. Kakoma by using the elementary knowledge which now you use in the North Western Province.


Mr Magande: Just by seeing some mirage, you think that is oil. The oil could be five kilometres in the ground, it is very far. We are now inviting the people with such equipment. We have capable geologists and surveyors at the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development, but they are the ones who have told us. Yes, with the limping Land Rovers we are using, we can show you where we found this fire which Chief Kakoma was always looking at the last 200 years. He did not know what it was.

Mr Matongo: He thought it was witchcraft.

Mr Magande: He thought it was a bushfire, but it was oil burning. Now we need these people to identify the exact spot and the quantities that are under and where and how far deep in the ground so that by the time we start mining, we will know whether we have 20,000,000 litres of oil or 2,000,000 litres which might be uneconomic to mine. So, please, the hon. Member who is looking forward to be a sheikh should start encouraging the people going to his area to help him to become one. Do not discourage them. I know you have no money, but these people have the money to turn you into a sheikh.

Your role now should be to go to Zambezi, wait for the people whom we are going to give mining licences or surveying licences – by the way, the advertisements by the Ministerial Committee are now running in the public media.

Mr Tetamashimba: Even in The Post of yesterday.

Mr Magande: Yes, and the hon. Member is saying this is being done secretly, we are a transparent Government.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Magande: They are there now. You can pick any newspaper so that over the weekend, when you go to Zambezi, you will take it and say, this is what the Government is looking for. If village Headman Kakoma can apply, let him apply for one of the blocks that we have already demarcated and start surveying for the oil. This is where we run into problems. You are hungry, you know where to find a buffalo, but when you get there, you think the buffalo will just drop dead by pointing a gun at it. You have to run after it even on your empty stomach in order to kill it and once you kill it, perhaps, you have other people who were not running, they can skin it for you while you rest.


Mr Magande: All this is a process. Mining is not simple. We are talking now of the question of 750,000 metric tonnes of copper in 1981, but all of us remember that mining in this country started in 1906. It took us from 1906 to 1981 to get to 750,000 tonnes. The new investors, some of them have only been here for less than five years and we are saying they should already be producing 1,000,000 tonnes. They have to invest and that is what we are doing now. We, on this side, want to encourage anybody who wants to invest in anything that can create wealth for themselves because that is what you are supposed to do. I think Hon. Milupi put it candidly. When you are doing a project, you must first of all see whether you will make a profit and whether you will be able to feed your children.

Mr Chairman, after that, is when you say, to make this profit, I need to employ other people and you bring them in. You can only pay people if you want to make a profit for yourself. If you do not want to make money, then you do not engage people because there is nobody who is going to employ people just to make losses. Like we know, last week the hon. Minister was telling us that we now have investments of over US$1 billion in a year. Just in Konkola Deep, we are talking of pumping in US$700 million, that is, money from outside. That money has to be returned for people to see. Most of us have been board members. Why do you sit in a shareholders meeting, if you are going to invest money without a share dividend coming back to you?

Mr Chairman, these are the issues we should look at. I heard Hon. Mwila whom I thought was an expert in mining, but not a mining engineer. He gave a very gloomy picture. There is no employment, the roads are not being done, the water is not being done, but everyday, we are reading that on the Copperbelt, the mining companies are going into partnerships with the district councils to help them with the social services.

Right now, most of us remember the famous Chitalu, Kalusha Bwalya and Munaile and the football teams they used to play for. Munaile is here now, but he is a very good footballer. Mr Chairman, when ZCCM collapsed, all these sports activities died on the Copperbelt. However, now the mining houses have resuscitated a football league and that is important for our youth as well as the miners to find something to cheer them after coming from underground 500 metres. How many of us go to work 500 metres down? Some of us even climbing two metres to come here get tired.


Mr Magande: Mr Chairman, it is not a simple project. On pollution, as far as we are concerned, we feel that under the development agreements we have signed, the current problems of pollution must be dealt with by the mining companies. However, we have a programme funded by donors outside. We got a loan with which we are trying to work on the environmental problems left by ZCCM. You know this programme, we have been building houses in some of the areas of the Copperbelt because these houses have been affected by previous mining operations.

Mr Chairman, some of the dams are being cleaned under this programme and so we are not sitting down and doing nothing. By the way, Hon. Imbwae, on page 109, Programme 7 - Inspections, there is an amount for environmental control. It is there in the budget of this Ministry.

Mr Chairman, on HIV/AIDS, the mining companies are helping on that particular score. Some of the mining companies have some of the best employee HIV friendly programmes where they entice the staff to go for voluntary counselling and then they give them medicines. That is the programme which is working.

On malaria, we have a robust programme on the Copperbelt to fight malaria. Hon. Muyanda, I am impressed with the passion with which you speak about Maamba Collieries Mine which is in the midst of your constituency. Not only that, all the mining companies need coal and right now, we have a problem because some of them are not operating properly and others are using coal which is of low standard because we are not mining enough of our own coal which of high standard. We have millions of tonnes of it in one of our local areas in Sinazongwe at Maamba Collieries Mine. Mr Chairman, that is why this Government has interested ZCCM Investment Holdings to go into partnership with outsiders to invest in new equipment and make sure the mine is brought back to a more vibrant life rather than what has been happening in the last two to three years. I want to inform this august House that already an agreement has been signed with a South African company which is going to come with equipment and start mining on a lease basis before we find a permanent contractor who is going to work with us.

Yes, Hon. Mwila, I must concur with you that my ministry is responsible for development agreements. When we sign them, I personally make sure that I append my signature thereto. Normally, I do not put my signature on any thing I do not understand. I read each and every word of each development agreement. In there, we have provided for issues like the ones you talked about.

On the issue of employment and contracts, there is a provision that each mining house shall encourage local contractors. If they are not there, they must create them by training, but in the recent past years, our committee was not effective enough. This year, we intend to make this committee effective again so that they make sure they go through each development agreement with the mining investors and see where they are not fulfilling their deal and where the Government is not fulfilling its deal. We hope that is going to encourage the development of local entrepreneurs on the Copperbelt.

Mr Chairperson, yes, we are aware of the problems of the pension scheme. Again, like we have said, we are trying clean some of these things, like President Mwanawasa said yesterday. I am just trying to correct mistakes of other people, and yet, I am being blamed. How do you have a pension scheme for a miner called Bwalya on the Copperbelt who is contributing his pension money every month and you deposit it in London? Why? It should be deposited here in Kitwe so that I can borrow it and use it to develop this country. However, what we are saying now is that the pension and insurance authority have already given notice. We want to make sure that these pension schemes are related to our local situation. That has to change. It was a mistake which was made and now we have to correct it. That is an issue which we are working on.

I would like to thank my good friend Hon. Bonshe for appreciating what this New Deal Government is doing to change the whole of the North Western Province from a sleeping rural traditional province into a giant of an industrial base.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Magande: I appreciated what he said about local communities. Out of the programmes which are running now, both at the Ministry of Finance and National Planning and Ministry of Mines and Mineral Development, we want to see how local people can participate in particular, because I know Hon. Kakoma has no money to invest and participate in the revenues of all these investments that we are putting around in the country. Therefore, we will obviously want to sit down as most of you from the Copperbelt are already aware. Right now, there four chiefs who are visiting Ghana. We want to make sure that they also see how the mining is related to local communities there, so that when they come back here, we can start experimenting with some of the local communities for them to be interested in mining and safeguard the investment and actually benefit therefrom. That is a concern we have. I would like to plead with Hon. Bonshe that when we want to put up a mine where there is a shrine, an old grave of chief Kakoma with bones which are already rotten, please, do not stop us.


Mr Magande: Those bones have no value. We will put them elsewhere or in a museum. We will exhume them and dig the minerals because we need to be rich.


Mr Magande: Mr Chairperson, it is obvious from what Hon. Milupi said that he is somebody who has been in the mines for many years. He obviously feels very nostalgic about what happened, but I liked what he said that if we had used the mineral revenues properly, we would have developed. I think that was said by him and also by another Member of Parliament. Yes, we have to ask these questions. We had the time and money. Can you imagine that part of our money from the minerals was used to import goal posts for ZCCM football teams? Those poles which you see in some of your grounds were imported from outside the country. Is that a good use for money? We want to say no and now we want to do the right things. If we need goal posts for Nchanga Rangers, let them go into the bush and cut timber, it will be good enough. Let us use this money to make sure when the fortunes are down with us, at least, we will have the means to continue to live as a country.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to say again, it was a very nice debate, but let me invite all the hon. Members that they should take interest in this report ‘ZCCM Investments Holdings PLC.’, which is in their pigeon holes. On page 6 of this report there are details of the shareholding of Government into the mining companies. On page 10, are the financial statements …

The Deputy Chairperson: What is the title of that report?

Mr Magande: It is the ‘ZCCM Investments Holding (IH) Report’. That is where you will find the financial statements. On page 31, are details of the liabilities of ZCCM. Now, in the budget, we only expect K77 billion from the mines. Most of the mineral revenues now is going to ZCCM IH. In this report, last year 2006, if I may turn to page 10, ZCCM earned during the year of 2005, K173 billion compared to K31 billion in 2004. If you go to the figure of liabilities on page 31, you will find that, in fact, the liabilities of ZCCM by June 2005 the group liability was K578 billion. This is the problems of ZCCM. We are still contending to have to sort it out. Even the K173 million that was received it went to pay all the debts. Therefore, the arrangement is that for the time being, the price participation revenue and the dividends are going to ZCCM to clear their books since that is a Government liability. Only after we have finished solving these problems will the money start accruing to the Government as revenue. I thought I should explain that.

Mr Chairperson I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 14/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 14/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 14/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 14/04 ─ (Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development ─ Mines Development Department ─ K26,223,746,072).

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Page 110, Programme 9, Activity 1 ─ Post Privatisation Monitoring Operations ─ K90,360,000. Last year, they had budgeted for K170 million, but they have reduced it to K90,360,000, this year. I would like to know why the hon. Minister has reduced this amount when most of the companies are being privatised and there will be a lot of work for the committee.

Mr M. Mwale: Mr Chairperson, the reduction is mainly due to the fact that other ministries now will be funding themselves. Initially, it was put in one vote.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Chairperson, I am not convinced in that this vote of K170 million is specifically for Post-Privatisation Monitoring Operations. The reasons I am advancing is that the companies which are coming on board will be many and there will be a lot of work to do. Why should the ministry reduce that allocation from K170 million to K90 million?

Mr Magande: Mr Chairperson, as my Deputy has said, when we were just beginning this team and as Hon. M. Mwila has said, that is one of the problems we discovered. They were not effective because the ministry did not have enough money. This team is made of up of officers from various ministries. There is an official from the Ministry of Finance and National Planning. We said that all those ministries that are represented on this committee must budget for their sitting on the committee. That is why the figure under the ministry is only to cater for the Ministry of Mines and Mineral Development officers. The people will use their votes for subsistence and travel, except for transport, which we will buy under a centralised system.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 14/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 17 ─ (Ministry of Foreign Affairs ─ K166,846,203,279).

The Minister of Foreign Affairs (Mr Sikatana): Mr Chairperson, may I first and foremost, express my appreciation for the opportunity that you have accorded me to present the Estimates of Expenditure for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

Sir, my ministry carries the responsibility of articulating and implementing Zambia’s foreign policy. It facilitates the country’s interaction with the international community to fulfill its principal mandate of promoting, protecting and maximising the realisation of Zambia’s interests.

Mr Chairperson, in the light of the changing economic and political landscape, the ministry shall, during the year 2007, continue to strengthen the country’s role in the global community focusing primarily upon the country’s active participation and positive interventions that advocate pro-poor changes to international trade policies such as the World Trade Organisation (WTO) and the European Union (EU). The issue of attracting Foreign Direct Investment (FDI) shall occupy centre stage in the country’s foreign interactions.

Sir, I would like to inform this hon. House that we have successfully implemented programmes and activities as budgeted for in the 2006 Budget. Some of the major programmes we implemented include the following:

(i) held four Joint Permanent Commissions with Zimbabwe, Egypt and Tanzania.

(ii) organised a regional Workshop for the Rationalisation of Economic Communities for Eastern and Southern Africa.

(iii) participated in the Tokyo International Conference on Africa’s Development.

(iv) facilitated the President of the Republic of Zambia, His Excellency, Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC, in various international events, for example, the China/Africa Forum in Beijing where the Chinese President Hu Jintao, made commitments concerning Africa’s development. This manifested itself in the recent visit to Zambia where he unveiled an investment programme in excess of US$800 million.

(v) participated in the African Union Summit in Khartoum and of late, in Addis Ababa where Zambia on the earlier one acceded to the African Peer Review Mechanism.

(vi) participated in the United Nations General Assembly in New York.

Mr Chairperson, we also managed to procure a residence in Paris and renovations in London, Lilongwe, Washington and we are currently renovating a residence in Rome and a Chancery in Berlin.

Sir, last year, we managed to open a mission in Brazil and a Consulate in Angola. We, therefore, need to improve the capacity in these missions if they are to effectively play a crucial role in the realisation of Zambia’s interest. There will be need to procure office equipment, chanceries, staff houses and representational vehicles in the 2007 Budget.

Mr Chairperson, it will be recalled that in the previous Budget, my ministry was allocated K155.6 billion of which K137.6 billion was for Personal Emoluments and K18 billion for Recurrent Departmental Charges. However, this amount was inadequate, hence, creating severe operational difficulties and resulting in my ministry requesting for supplementary funding.

Sir, it is worth noting that in 2007 Budget, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Recurrent Departmental Charges have increased by K13.6 billion against a reduction in the Personal Emoluments and other related expenses of K2.1 billion.

Mr Chairperson, Recurrent Department Charges are critical in the implementation of our foreign policy, especially when we are striving to operationalise the creation of a Diplomatic Service. As we open new missions, there will be need to post, recall and transfer officers.

Mr Chairman, during the year 2007, Zambia will assume the Chairmanship of the Southern African Development Co-operation (SADC) at a summit to be held here in Lusaka sometime in August. This is a very expensive activity, which will need adequate funding if it is to be implemented effectively.

Mr Chairman, during the MTEFF period of 2007 to 2009, we intend to open missions in Ghana, Australia and Saudi Arabia of which Ghana will be opened during the course of this year.

Mr Chairman, as we implement programmes as stipulated in the Fifth National Development Plan which includes restructuring of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in order to shift emphasis from political to economic diplomacy, there will be need to strengthen the Zambia Institute of Diplomacy and International Studies (ZIDIS). As I am speaking, ZIDIS is now operational.

Another semi-autonomous entity, which needs a lot of support, is the Zambia Anti-Personnel Mine Action Centre (ZMAC). It is worth nothing that the department has been underfunded since its establishment in 2003. This has made it very difficult for ZMAC to carry out any major demining operations.

Mr Chairman, Zambia being a State party to the Ottawa Convention on the ban of land mines, we are obliged to complete demining by 2011. Continued underfunding therefore, will entail that we shall fail to meet the deadline and this will subsequently affect the security of the nation and the attainment of sustainable development in contaminated areas.

Mr Chairman, during the year 2007, ZMAC intends to conduct the impact survey to complete a countrywide identification of landmine affected areas. Demining of the cordon line in the Western and North-Western provinces to prevent cattle disease, demining of the Lower Zambezi …

The Deputy Chairman: Order! The House does not seem to be listening.

Will the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs continue, please.

Mr Sikatana: … and the Sioma-Ngwezi National parks and the provision of mine risk education to affected communities remain outstanding.

I wish to take this opportunity, Mr Chairman, to appeal to all hon. Members of this august for their support to my ministry’s budget as we implement our mandate for the realisation of our national interests.

Mr Chairman, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Scott (Lusaka Central): Mr Chairman, I was going to tell the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development, through you, that Zambia’s first major impact on the international scene was in 1945 when Northern Rhodesia, as we were then, supplied uranium for the first atomic bomb to be dropped in anger. As the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development said, there was no history of uranium mining. Therefore, perhaps it came from the Democratic Republic of Congo, but there is a small fact anyway.

Laughter lingo

Dr Scott: I was very disappointed with the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs’ brief presentation because there was no mention of what I think most people who are scientifically literate at the moment are very concerned about and that is global warning. We are under threat. The hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs now used to be the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives. While he was hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives, he developed something of a bee in the bonnet, if I may use that term if it is not unparliamentary, about Genetically Modified Organic (GMOs) foods and their danger from foreign countries to Zambia. Let me assure him that the threat to Zambia from GMOs is less than 1 per cent of 1 per cent of 1 per cent of the damage that can be done from the poisoning of the atmosphere that is accelerated with the economic expansion in the Far East to add to the damage which has already been done by the industrialisation of the western countries. I would like to hear or see if there is any mention of our foreign affairs vision, that is, Kiyoto, compensative arrangements and possible carbon sequestration benefits to us from the industrialised world from maintaining our forests that these matters are taken care of because we do not want this to be repeated. As I have said before in this House, in 1992, I raised the issue why is there no HIV/AIDS mentioned in the of the President’s Speech of the Official Opening of Parliament. I was told that somebody forgot to put the page in. Now, you can not get anywhere without people being very aware of the dangers of HIV/AIDS.

This issue, Mr Chairman, is going to come to dominate our concerns in 10 years, 20 years or 30 years time and we might as well get organised with it now by talking to other people about it. It is not a matter of the sea coming up and flooding us, but a matter of storms, floods and droughts. It will be things we have seen this year as if God had wanted us to have a listening or watching Government. I think I cannot underline this is too much because to get caught in 10 years time with an Agriculture Policy that is based on the assumption of good weather and constant bumper harvest and yet in the last 6 years, we have had only two bumper harvests, I think would be foolishness on our part. I would plead with our listening or not listening Government …

Mr Sichilima: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Will the hon. Member for Lusaka Central continue, please.

Dr Scott: Should I continue?

The other thing …

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.


The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Let me advise the House. It is not acceptable to ask for a point of order while seated. I heard you shout for a point of order, but I did not ask you to raise the point of order because you were seated. Let us always do the right thing. When you want to raise a point of order, you should do what you are expected to do. You can raise your point of order.

Mr Sichilima: On a point of order, Sir.


Mr Sichilima: Mr Chairman, I did not want to disturb my uncle on the Floor who is debating so well. Is he in order to mislead the House and the nation at large that the bumper harvest we have had has just been by the grace of God, and yet when he was the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives, we had very good rains, but we never had any bumper harvest?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: The hon. Member for Lusaka Central should clear that aspect as he debates.

Will he continue, please.

Dr Scott: I do believe, Mr Chairman, sorry to digress, that the largest maize harvest this country has had in the last 15 years was after the 1992/1993 season when I organised the inputs and their distribution.

Hon. Government Members: No.

Dr Scott: There was 1.7 million tonnes of maize.

Now, to just come to back to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs which is, of course, what we are debating, I would urge the hon. Minister to comment just briefly on global warning. Somebody said to me the other day that God will provide when I was expressing worry about good weather. That is not the same thing which applies. In my culture, it is God helps those that help themselves and if we do nothing, to take care of ourselves …

The Deputy Chairman: Order!

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.

Dr Scott: Before business was suspended, I was just trying to encourage the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs to transfer his zealousness about bio safety to zealousness about environmental safety and the consequences for life here and to be very aggressive and very strong on the subject and we will reward him with one of these Grand Officer of the Eagle of Zambia, always First Class when we come into Government.

Mr Chairman, I am not a jeer political chess player, but I am a little bit baffled by our position on the Darfur situation, even the United Nations which is very slow with such descriptions has used the word genocide in relation to the situation in Western Sudan and the Eastern Chad where the Arab Janjaweed Militia on their horses and camels are killing people. It was described it a slow genocide because there is some sort of normative rate of genocide, which compare to Rwanda is slow.

However, where is our position in that we are releasing all this money to this ministry to basically and apparently close up to an international power that is using the threat of its veto or the threat of its on the United Nations to prevent the United Nations sanctions on the Sudanese Government?

Mr Chairman, I know that we have done something within the African Union context, but I do not quite see what we are doing or where our preferences are that we are allowing the so-called slow genocide to take place while we are meanwhile feasting with the people who seem to be party to allowing it to take place. I am sure he knows what I mean. If the House does not know who I am talking about, it is The People’s Republic of China, which is on the Security Council and has big economic oil interest in Sudan and has made it very clear that it will block any attempts by the United Nations to bring the Government of Sudan to heal.

Mr Chairman, I am always very interested when I travel abroad to visit the Zambian Embassies and High Commissions and I must say that I am not always overwhelmed by the quality, informativeness and skills of the diplomats that we find there. The hon. Minister said that they are out there to attract investment, bring about economic growth in Zambia and that is the centre piece or the bull’s eye of his ministry’s policy.

I must say that sometimes I did not find a Rhumba musician as number two in one embassy. He came from Ndola I think and I wonder whether the hon. Minister would care to set our minds at rest because I hear allegations that people were trying to explain some of these anomalies by saying that it is a form of patronage and a way of rewarding people, a way of taking care of people. That is not compatible with being the most aggressive and successful Foreign Service in Africa. We have been leading the world in global warming diplomacy and leading Africa in bringing investment.

Therefore, I wonder whether they would care to undertake to us that we have an audit of the top four, for instance, people in each embassy or High Commission throughout the world to determine who they are, where they came from and what their background in diplomacy is and so forth.

I think this would interest many people, but not just on this side of the House, but also on that side of the House. About the Rhumba musician-in-question, he could not even draft a letter. We should not be surprised and I am not criticising him for not being able to draft a letter, but it is peculiar that we are voting large amounts of money to pay for this person’s children education and movement of baggage and so forth.

I can put myself in the shoes of an investor and for cultural reasons, it is quite easy for me. Sometimes I would run away with my money if the only Zambians I knew are the people at the front desk, if you like, in some of the embassies and High Commissions.

Lastly, it has been gratifying recently that our Government has been quite quick to ratify conventions such as Conventions on Human Rights and Corruption. However, there is a kind of lack of joined-up-government because one expects that when the foreign side of the Government ratifies a convention, the domestic side of the Government will be very quick to bring to this House the domesticated version of that convention and make it into law and make it effective within Zambia and not just something to which we have clapped hands and said, yes, we agree.

So, with those few points, and after all, this is not my area of expertise, I will give another speaker five minutes of my time.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Matongo (Pemba): Mr Chairman, I always speak with passion when it comes to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs for various reasons. I wish to state that the recent changes of Ambassadors at the United Nations and at the ministry Permanent Secretary level, for those of us who follow international relations as you do, Mr Chairman, are welcome. The two men, one at the United Nations and the one you are bringing to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs as your Permanent Secretary are people who know what foreign affairs is all about. We congratulate you on that.

Secondly, you are opening missions in Australia, Saudi Arabia and Ghana, which I suppose will cover the French speaking countries, thus as it should be, but we do hope that your mission in Brazil will cover the Caribbeans where we have African Americans.

Having stated that, this ministry is cardinal and to me, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, which I like to believe is in charge of the international co-operation is a determining factor as to what point our international agreements as signed by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning in terms of borrowings and checked the legality and soundness of the law by the hon. Minister of Justice are the ones to persuade the authorities and the Cabinet that it is a somewhat primitive to continue to believe even after 42 years of independence that it is only the Cabinet and its Chairman that should bring those agreements for approval by this Chamber.

The hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs has the wondrous task in consultations with both the Ministers of Finance and National Planning and Justice that it is high time all agreements that are being signed were brought to this House. I think you have the capacity to persuade the younger of your generation in your Cabinet that it is a sensible thing to do. I have no doubt that you will not waste your time waiting for a Constitution which we do not know when it is coming, bringing agreements for approval or even making us believe that we have participated in this Chamber. We are the representatives of the people.

Secondly, I would like to state clearly that missions abroad should better be used more and more, but, you can only use our missions abroad if the Heads of those Missions and their staff are capable of delivering as you would want to deliver, as a Government, to those Governments you are dealing with.

Since you are responsible for appointing the Heads of Missions and I would like to believe that in this particular Republic from 1991, the President also appoints even Third Secretaries. It never used to happen before. We are saying, why can we not make it clear that, in fact, there are economic missions. Missions that will help your ministry and, in turn, you helping the Ministry of Ministry of Finance and National Planning not to send big delegations to negotiate and agree on certain agreements. It is all about capacity. As I understand it, hon. Minister, you have good neighbourliness missions and economic missions.

I would like you to convince me that in places like Tokyo, Addis Ababa, New York, Washington, Brussels, I would avoid London and Pretoria, you have the sharpest of diplomats because these are cardinal missions to our economic arrangement and so would be the case with Brazil and Australia. London, well …

Hon. Members: China!

Mr Matongo: I will also avoid China.


Mr Matango: … for a good reason. I am avoiding London for a good reason that really, if I were offered to be High Commissioner for London, I would say, no. This is because it is not my duty to pick my grandchildren at the airport when they are arriving, little ministers.


Mr Matongo: I would stay away for that reason. If you want it, you can have it.

Having stated that, …

Lieutenant–General Shikapwasha: Unless me.

Mr Matongo: Well, maybe you, yes. After all, you are part of the family tree.


Mr Matongo: I am saying it really helps the presidency, the economic ministries and the social ministries to have capable ambassadors in economic missions. It does help …

Hon. Government Member: You are an ally!

Mr Matongo: You may be an ally of others, but certainly not me. It does help cutting these trips abroad. Why can we not start implementing the Foreign Policy which was brought to this House?


The Deputy Chairperson: Order! The Chair is getting distracted by the conversation on my immediate left.

Mr Matongo: Maybe, they hardly understand what I am saying.

The Deputy Chairperson: Please, give him a chance to debate. Continue.

Mr Matongo: I thank you, Sir.

I will continue saying that it would be very helpful, if we put our best staff in these economic ministries. It is not the large numbers that matter. It is the capability we put in there. As for good neighbourliness, I am sure the President, after winning the elections, could have had a few people that did not perform well. Therefore, he sent them as ambassadors to a place we can drive to and from. The trade balance between those countries and Zambia is zero. Those missions can be there for that kind of people. I think what Hon. Dr Scott was saying is, precisely, what I am saying.

Sir, let me now come to the budget. The ministry has allocated itself K21 million for the International Trade Fair in Ndola and K45 billion for Public Affairs and Summit Meetings. Obviously, K45 billion is a lot of money. It could help paying some of the debt we have in missions abroad if we cut down on travel. It would also help us, very much, to pay the bills we have if those figures were approximated. It would help if we put capable people in those missions.

I think we have to pay attention to New Partnership for Africa’s Development (NEPAD). We also need to pay attention to other international organisations because they help us to generate revenue in place of budget support. My concern is the incapacity of the ministry’s streamlining the Foreign Service despite a very clear Foreign Policy. May I suggest that we look at these missions as not retirements …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! You know the Chair gets worried. It would make it a different if the person speaking was a bit far. The problem is that he is near and I can see that he is getting distracted because of the conversations on his immediate right. I am also getting distracted. So, why can we not keep quiet?

Mr Hachipuka: It is Jack Mwiimbu!


The Deputy Chairperson: Can you continue, please, let us give him time to debate.

Mr Hachipuka: Kamuswilila

Mr Matongo: I thank you very much. I really do not mind. I think I will continue with my debate.

It is very important for this country, 42 years after independence, to identify the need to have people that can help us move the country forward regardless of party affiliations. I would like to believe that most of the public servants are public servants.

May I state here that missions are not for retired Generals, hon. Minister. Retire them decently at home so that they can invest their retirement arrangements here. Missions abroad are not for Reverends. Let us help the Reverends to settle very well here.


Mr Matongo: Missions abroad are not for party cadres.

Mr Hachipuka: Managing Directors.

Mr Matongo: I suppose so, yes, we may wish to help. I am not aware of a former managing director who is an ambassador now. We have stayed home! I think we need to look at these areas.

This means that those people who need to be given jobs after they have retired jobs are not being looked after well by the Government. I suppose we should revisit that as a country to recognise what others have put into place while they were working. Ambassadors and High Commissioners must be men and women of extraordinary plenipotentiary qualities. It should not be people who will say that he is no longer with us in the MMD. No! When you are out there, there is no PF and MMD. There is only UPND to advise the Government to do the correct thing.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Matongo: I also would like to say that missions abroad are not a sanctuary for helping those in authority to look after themselves. This is the issue of the family tree arrangement. The triangle arrangement should be revisited. I know that you are very uncomfortable with it and I could be part of the family tree, but I am only advising that we have people with capacity to do these jobs.

Mr Sichilima: On a point order, Sir.

Mr Matongo: Let us have people with capacity to do these jobs.

I would also like to state that if our relatives need jobs, we have several farms around, Masaiti, Chongwe, and everywhere.


Mr Matongo: We can always employ them there to look after themselves. This has no relevance to any person. I also own a very small farm not too far away from here, but I am only stating the reality.


Mr Matongo: Sir, I also would like to state that it is time we started recognising people who have retired from the Foreign Service. They have a lot of valuable information that we can rely on and learn from and this information should be utilised. We should dedicate ourselves to excellent Public Service. 

Although the Ministry of Foreign Affairs has not disclosed the costs of the hon. Deputy Minister and the Permanent Secretary, these people need more money. You can only solve the problem by cutting on the delegations abroad. Soon, we will be asking questions about who has traveled where and under which position so that we know what is going on.

Mr Chairperson, Foreign Service is a career and it should be treated nicely. That brings me to the debate of the other day by the Hon. Member for Mbabala who thought that all these other commissions are a waste of resources. Why should governance not be implemented at the ministry when we have a steady Foreign Ministry, which is run by properly qualified people?

Sir, finally, I would like to state that we cannot all be farmers. Some of us must hold shares elsewhere. As a person who comes from the Southern Province, I would not have been what I am without owning cattle and land. I think you must understand that.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

Mr Kanyanyamina (Kanchibiya): Mr Chairperson, thank you very much for according me this opportunity to speak on behalf of my fellow Zambians. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs is a very important ministry and we need people with stamina, compassion and energy. I should be sensitive to protect my own interest and I do not want to offend any person in the House. I would like to state that I support this vote. I know that it is not allocated enough money and I think that is why our hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs is not doing enough to protect the Zambian interests across the border.

Sir, I will take one example of the South African situation where today, a Zambian is not respected despite having looked after South Africans as our children until they attained their own independence. Today, you cannot go to South Africa and drive a left hand vehicle. The South Africans will retain you even if your vehicle is just on transit from Europe through South Africa to Zambia. Is this the only way the will say thank you to the Mother Zambia which looked after them?

Mr Chairperson, there is a proverb which says, ‘never bite the finger that fed you when you were young’. That is what we want our hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs to look into. He should look into the plight of a Zambian. We have lost our Zambian brothers who have gone to do business in South Africa. Today, we have seen South Africans coming to Zambia to film. One previous debater talked of a South African Film Firm which came to film the Zambian poverty including our mines. These people are even laughing at us today. They have even forgotten how a Zambian tightened the belt to save them in their country. The hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs should have stamina to defend this. That is why a lot of money is put into that ministry and if it is not for the protection of the Zambian interests, then we are just wasting our time.

Mr Chairperson, why do South African Security Men …


The Deputy Chairperson: Order! We should consult quietly. We are consulting very loudly. Continue.

Mr Kanyanyamina: Mr Chairperson, why do South African Security personnel at the Bailey Bridge confiscate money from Zambians which they declare excess, and yet this money is not documented and not given back to our Zambian security personnel. Where is our hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs? The duty of the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs is not to accompany the President all the time.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kanyanyamina: Sir, he should perform his duties and make sure that the Zambian interests are protected.

Mr Chairperson, let us allocate enough money to this ministry so that the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs does not use it as Personal Emoluments for the staff. We should empower and show him that he is able to protect our interests.

Mr Tetamashimba: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Tetamashimba: Mr Chairperson, I was very interested in the debate of Hon. Kanyanyamina, but I was wondering when he spoke about the confiscation of money.


The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hon Deputy Minister, can you put your point of order properly. Do not make statements.


Mr Tetamashimba: Sir, if it is about confiscation of money, is he in order not to mention that US$27,000 was lost in South Africa and not name that particular person from whom it was confiscated so that the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs can assist him retrieve that money? I need your serious ruling.


The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Since the hon. Deputy Minister has adequately debated his point of order, you can continue.


Hon. Opposition Members: Bwekeshapo!

Mr Kanyanyamina: Mr Chairperson, thank you for your protection. My point of concern is that the Zambian Government is allocating money to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs to protect every Zambian’s rights, starting from the Head of State to a person who cannot even afford a pair of shoes.

Sir, the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs should make sure that when Interpol comes into this country, he is there to see that amicable means are used instead of the South Africans terrorising our country. Where will a Zambian enjoy his peace if he is not protected by his own ruler who is the hon. Minister in this regard? Appointments of diplomats should be on merit. We should not politicise appointments of diplomats to a situation where someone who fails an election or a reject in this country …

Mr Mwila: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hon. M. Mwila, I am sorry to mention your name, but it is because my eyes saw you. When the person is debating and you keep on doing that, you will disturb the person who is on the Floor. Give him time to debate properly. Hon. Kanyanyamina, you may continue.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kanyanyamina: Mr Chairperson, you should not politicise appointments for diplomats. A situation where someone who fails an election is appointed to a foreign nation as a diplomat is not good. Why should we send the Zambian rejects to foreign countries when we have capable young men and women from universities, capable people who should represent us there, regardless of their political affiliations? We have capable men and women who can do that work. Today, I am gender sensitive because it is International Women’s Day. 

Mr Kanyanyamina: Sir, foreign policies should be meant to protect Zambians. Look at how Zambians will benefit from International Co-operations. I feel this is the reason why I pay tax as Hon. Kanyanyamina and the rest of the people  who are paying tax in the country. Do not be seen to praise one particular country. For example, today, we are praising China all the time at the expense of other countries such as USA, the mighty UK and other countries who are giving us enormous help.

Hon. PF Members: Hear hear!

Sir, all foreign countries have helped Zambian in one way or another. I therefore, feel that the Ministry of Foreign Affairs should see to it that the all foreign countries are given equal treatment to avoid biasness. Do not just concentrate on China as a saviour of Zambia.

Sir, we have clearly spoken that we have lost our young men, especially in South Africa because this is a country where Zambia invested a lot of money by seeing that they attain independence.

 It is painful to see our dear Zambians losing life there. Regardless of whether you are a minister or not, what I am talking about is a reality. One day, you might be a target there. Therefore, we would like to ask our great and significant hon. Minister to look into this matter, especially that we like doing business in South Africa. We love them because they ate our food and we also want to benefit from their cake. They owe us something and we will not stop doing business there. If they want, they can kill us, but we will continue to do business with them.

Therefore, my appeal to the hon. Minister is that, if possible, they should be giving us security from the borders until we conduct our business and come back. This is all what we are talking about. We want to see that they pay back to us somehow. They should let us have our vehicles in transit from other countries through South Africa. We believe that Zambia is the country which helped that country to attain their independence. Apart from that, we should make sure that we put in a powerful minister to be in charge of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

Sir, by saying that, I am not underrating our current hon. Minister, but I am saying that he should do much more. I would like to provoke him so that he even works harder. As Zambians, we have not seen much from him.

With these few remarks, I submit myself.

I thank you, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson gave the Floor to the Minister for Northern Province (Mr Chibombamilimo).


The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Order!

The Minister for the Northern Province (Mr Chibombamilimo): Mr Chairperson, I stand to support the budget of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

In the first place, …


Mr Chibombamilimo: Please, can you listen? My voice is like this. It is a very nice voice.


Mr Chibombamilimo: Mr Chairperson, I would like to disagree with one of the debaters who said that when someone loses elections, that person cannot not be given a chance to do other jobs. I want to say that may not be very true. For instance, we had a very powerful person here that I liked and that is Hon. Sibetta. He used to sit somewhere there.

Mr Chibombamilimo pointed to the Opposition.

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

Mr Chibombamilimo: Today, Hon. Sibetta is not here. If such a calibre was given a chance to go into the Foreign Service or head any of the departments, can we call him a failure?

Hon. Members: No!

Mr Chibombamilimo: We cannot call him a failure or a reject. Therefore, I do not think that point still stands here.

Sir, the other point I would like to make is that all of us come from nine provinces and belong to these provinces. Therefore, if someone becomes President and he happens to appoint any person from his province who has the calibre to head any department does not make his him part of a family tree.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chibombamilimo: Therefore, I disagree with you.

Mr Chairperson, we are living in a world of increasing interdependence and co-operation between and among states, multi-national companies international organisation and regional bodies. We need to define our role in the global community so that our contribution to the international system may be felt and appreciated.

As we do this, we need to ascertain how our international relations could contribute to our local efforts in the area of poverty and aviation for resource.

Mr Chairperson, our Ministry of Foreign Affairs working through our various embassies tragically located in carefully selected regions of the world is critical in assisting the country charge its own call in international relations.

Mr Chairperson …


The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Members, I think we are playing. You see, it is very disheartening. It is not the first time you have come to learn that people have different voices.


The Deputy Chairperson: I am serious about this. We are getting out of hand. Really, I do not like this. People have different voices. Some have big voices and others have small voices. Therefore, for you to make that an issue, it is not acceptable in this House. I do not mind if somebody makes a comment once, but for you to continue doing that, we are not being fair. Let us respect each other.

Could the hon. Minister continue.

Mr Chibombamilimo: Actually, I am not the only one. Hon. Akashambatwa Mbikusita …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hon. Minister, you have already been protected.


The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Minister, You know, I am not only talking about you. You are already protected and so, go straight into the subject.

Could you please continue.

Mr Chibombamilimo: Mr Chairperson, the international community is occupied by, among other issues, nuclear proliferation, climate change, global warming, terrorism, weapons of mass destruction and the crisis in Sudan.

Sir, while we are supposed to engage these issues as a member of the international community, there are areas where we may have different interest and a stronger voice. For instance, we can play a significant role in peacekeeping missions that we have been involved in for a long time now. We need to stay on this track and resound positively even in future when we are called upon to do so.

Mr Chairperson, this role has earned the country respect among the community of nations. Our disciplined troops have conducted themselves exceptionally well.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chibombamilimo: Therefore, our participation in peace-keeping activities should continue as one of the features of our Foreign Policy. One of the major challenges for a country such as Zambia is how to participate in the international economic system and sell her goods, products and services at a competitive price. The challenge is daunting in view of powerful economic blocks formed by major trading partners in Europe, Asia, and America etc.

We are also members of economic blocks such as COMESA and SADC through whose platforms we could fight for a fair share of the international market. However, progress is painfully slow as Africa continues to be disadvantaged by trading practices adopted by developed nations. Mr Chairperson, through the World Trade Organisation (WTO), and other international conferences on trade or social fora these trade imbalances and practices such as subsidies of agricultural produce and products have been addressed to no avail.

What can a country such as Zambia do under the circumstances? We need to support the Budget and its allocations to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. As we do so, we need to call for appropriate personnel to fill the jobs in the Foreign Service. For instance, we need to have as many economic trade attachés and career diplomats as possible so that they may advise the Government on the right course of action to take in the increasingly competitive international community. This Government has tried to go in this direction, but we need support from this House to enable us allocate more resources so that our foreign missions may help in aggressively selling this country to the outside world, thereby attracting more resources.

Sir, our continued support to the National Institute of Public Administration (NIPA), where we train our diplomats is our continued commitment to the development of a cadre of a career Foreign Service.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Hammer!

Mr Chibombamilimo: Mr Chairperson, we are committed to conducting foreign affairs in a professional manner and in a way that reflects the needs of this country. As representatives of the people who voted this party into power, you need to support our initiatives and this budget if we are to serve the interest of the Zambian people better.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka (Namwala): Mr Chairperson, I rise to support the estimates of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. However, as a preamble, I would like to say that Generals in the Zambia Army or Zambia Air Force have abundant capacity to serve anywhere.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: At the strategic planning level at the Staff College, foreign corporations and nationals are taught at the very highest level. They in fact go into this subject deeper than some managing directors of companies …


Major Chizhyuka: … who might have been managing several trucks.


Mr Mubika: Matongo!

Major Chizhyuka: So, I think that whichever administration is at the helm of the power in this country has a right to choose which people they must send into Foreign Service.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: The military included.

Mr Chairperson, I understand that the Zambian Government is opening full diplomatic missions in Ghana, Australia and Saudi Arabia. I have also learnt that as far as Angola is concerned, the attention is at the consulate level. It is specifically this matter that I want to deal with in as far as it concerns the need to establish economic missions in our country.

The other day I talked at length on the Contagious Bovine Pleural Pneumonia (CBPP) in the Western Province where the Hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs comes from. I also discussed the importance of cattle development to this country. That day I was able to raise examples showing why Botswana is what it is today because of cattle power and how its economy has 41.79 per cent of GDP contributed by its livestock sector. I was able to show that day that the Zambians who leave this country to go to Botswana to seek employment, such as nurses, doctors and accountants actually go to an economy which is supported by cattle by 41.79 per cent. In other words, they leave Zambia to go and chase cattle money.

CBPP is associated to the Province called Western Province and ever since independence, we have been talking about a cordon line. It is important that the Ministry of Foreign Affairs uses as much of the moneys allocated to them to the Angolan mission.

Mr Muntanga: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: By so doing, you can be influencing the Republic of Angola to take a national view of the CBPP problem which is in that country. By so doing, you will not only be helping the Zambian Government, but you would also be helping the Angolan Government in eradicating the CBPP. We would like to achieve levels where we are exporting millions of carcasses to Saudi Arabia and earn Zambia foreign exchange. We would like to achieve levels where we can export five times the number of carcasses that Botswana exports to Europe.

Hon. Minister, we have a better grazier scheme in this country. So, if you draw your attention to ensuring that Angola is fully supported with the kind of staff that understands the things that we are talking about, and keep in mind that we want to bring economic benefit to this country, we will achieve much.

It is not a joke that Botswana is able to realise the money they are realising now. It is because they have shifted their attention to empowering their indigenous people. If you can use the resources you are given to get the Angolan Mission to work in such a manner that we can deal with this issue of CBPP, you will not need that cordon line. If Angola decides to take action from their side, you will not need to spend money on the cordon line. You will not need that cordon line to address this issue of CBPP. It is Angola, after all, to take action from their side. You will not need to spend money on the cordon line. In any case, the only reason you keep spending money on the cordon line is that you have not employed your international relations with the neighbouring country to deal with this matter.

In any case, I would like to tell you that I have lived in Angola for two years on United Nations missions and I know what I am talking about. Angola receives its beef from Holland. We have better quality beef and I think that we should devote a substantial amount of money to deal with this matter.

Mr Chairman, I also would like to support the view raised by Hon. Matongo that we should start establishing missions that are economic in nature because we spent our time in the liberation struggle directing so many billions of our hard-earned Kwacha to support our colleagues. Countries such as Botswana were hard driving on an economic agenda. Today the countries that were nonentities are the countries that matter. They are the ones employing Zambians.

Mr Chairman, it is in view of this matter that I rise specifically to debate this issue because of the constituency where I come from, Namwala. I do not want to see a day when the people of Namwala start being impoverished because Hon. Sikatana has not done his homework with Angola. If CBPP came overnight, all of us would become poor people and I do not want to see that day and it is for that reason that I support this matter specifically to deal with the issue of the diplomatic mission in Angola so that the mission has the capacity to solve the problems that are of common interest to this country.

I thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Chimbaka (Bahati): Mr Chairman, the importance of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs is very well known and for that reason, we have to support the allocation in the Budget even though they are inadequate. If we are to identify ourselves with the international community, there is need to have our face value appreciated by the international community. Industrialisation, agro-revolution and mining will not take off without marketing and attracting people to invest here in Zambia. In order to do that like my colleagues have said, we need well trained manpower to market the country, Zambia.

However, I have made one observation again which I feel we have to reflect on. Mr Chairman, whereas we appreciate that we have allocated, in the Estimates, money for tourism promotion in the Western World, we have done very little about the African Union, for example, we have Kinshasa next door, but nothing has been allocated in the Estimates. Look at Lubumbashi, Lilongwe, Nairobi, Abuja, Maputo, Windhoek, Rwanda, just to name a few. These are our neighbours and when shall we begin to interact with them. Is it implied that there is nothing about tourism in Rwanda? Is it the implication that Mozambique has nothing that Zambia can learn from in tourism? I do believe that because charity begins at home and if we have to attract and interact with the international community, there is a need for Zambia also to recognise and tap that which is closer to us from our sister countries.

Mr Chairman, leaving out Africa, to me, means that Zambia does not recognise the importance of the African Union because I believe that the African Union is a forum where, at least, we would tap something that will promote the tourism industry in Zambia. I wonder what it is that the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs does at the AU and I wonder why COMESA exists here in Zambia because I believe that tourism is an industry and a trade which must be promoted through COMESA. Now if we cannot identify and associate ourselves with our brothers and sisters in the neighbourhood, how then shall we reach there? Muchibemba batila ati, muchisha chinani uwakwata imbwa, muchifulo chakuti ifwenene kukuboko ukuli mupepi, ibula ukulu eko ile fwenena. This is what Zambians are doing …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! You just said muchibemba batila something, something. I would rather you said it in Bemba, but gave it an English interpretation for other hon. Members to understand what you are saying.

Mr Chimbaka: Mr Chairman, I was saying that in Bemba, there is a saying which goes, somebody who wants to be unfair to himself or herself would rather leave a person nearer to assist him and seek somebody who is very far away, meaning that he or she does not closely associate with the neighbour and the implication of leaving the neighbourhood has costly effects.

This is why I was saying that we would do better, as Zambia, if we promoted tourism beginning with our close associates who are in the neighbourhood because we would interact with the people there. If we went to Dar es Salaam, we would interact with many people such as the Arabs and Africans who have advanced their tourism industry. If they came as Africans, they would be lenient. They would not harass us. They will contribute to the development of the tourism industry in Zambia. Whereas we appreciate that, we must not be selective in the way we appropriate money.

If we look at Russia in Europe, those who have been there will agree with me that Russia is highly developed. Even though it was a communist socialist country, it is a well advanced country. If you look at Germany, there is nothing appropriated to Germany, and yet it is one of the developed countries in the tourism industry. Therefore, I think that the hon. Minister for Foreign Affairs should sometimes look around for room to manipulate the figures and consider coming home. We are African under the African Union. We are also members of the Southern Africa Development Community (SADC) and COMESA and so, we should utilise our membership and then Europe will, later, come aboard.

Mr Chairman, the people in Europe are good, but I can tell you that it is a story of a person with a wound and a fly, because when the wound heals, the fly flies away.

Mr Chairman, I note that there is an increase in the allocation to landmines. Some people may boast that they are senior Members of Parliament, but I can as well boast that I am one of the oldest politicians who saw Mudala and eat with him in my father’s house. We could build that experience from various schools, for example, schools of thought, schools of association, schools of understanding and schools of interaction. Mr Chairman, therefore, I would like to say that whereas I appreciate the increase, which is probably one third. I would want to say that it is very important that next year it is increased because human life was lost. People lost their lives during the struggle for independence under the Unilateral Declaration of Independence (UDI) and the money that has been appropriated to these should, at least, have been increased to meet the demands of the people whose legs were amputated and whose relations lost their lives. This is also a good idea under the land mines programme except that I believe there is little. An increase would be quite meaningful next year. Apart from that, we have heard most often about the cries of people who fought during the First and Second World Wars with the British and the Germans. I would want probably the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs this time around to begin lobbying for payments of benefits of these people because they served the British Government and something must definitely be done to assist the present Government to settle the arrears that have accrued to our old men and women who served British interests. It is very important.

The other issue is that there is a need again to, at least, add to the current policy to try and see through the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs Government-to-Government and see why despite the Government having attracted most Zambian technocrats and experienced persons who are spending energies and time in foreign countries, there is no benefit to us. I remember sometime ago, there were Ghanaian teachers who taught us in Form I at Munali. They had to send something to their own countries to develop their countries. Such a policy would be appropriated when legislated such that those people must also be rendering service to the Government, but they would also send us something to fill the vacancy that they have lost. Once we do that, we would be getting some sort of income which would go a long way in developing Mother Zambia. I thought, for a beginning, after a long holiday, while in the rural areas of Bahati, I should say this about the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

I thank you, Sir.

The Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services (Mr Mwaanga): Thank you very much, Mr Chairperson, for giving me this opportunity to contribute briefly to the Vote on the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

First of all, I would like to congratulate the Minister of Foreign Affairs and his staff on the magnificent work which they are doing. He is new in the ministry, but he has already been to many countries around the world while he has dealt with issues of war and peace.

Mr Chairperson, the end of the Cold War has not brought about stability or even a safer world. There is a proliferation of wars everywhere and there is a proliferation of peace-keeping operations everywhere which are expensive because peace making is cheaper than peace keeping. In peace keeping, you have to commit troops, but for peace making, you commit the promise. I think that we must give the promise an opportunity to work and produce the results which we require.

The issue of global warming has been raised. I wish to say that this country has been conscious about global warming, perhaps, more than any other country because Zambia was a member of the Preparatory Committee of the First World Conference on the Environment in 1971 for the conference which took place in 1972 in Stockholm, Sweden, where the First World Conference took place concerning the issues of the environment, including global warming. A number of declarations Zambia belongs to include one which was in Brazil on biodiversity, balancing the needs of environment as well as the needs of development. Zambia is a signatory to this convention just like Zambia is a signatory to the Kiyoto Convention on Global Warming and Gas Missions which are beginning to heat up the rest of the world and which have made the world weather go hay wire elsewhere. It is now no longer possible for even the most advanced Meteorological Departments to predict what kind of weather we are going to have because of the effects of global warming. We are very conscious of global warming and, as a country, we have been doing everything possible to prepare for global warming and take certain mitigation measures to ensure that we do not get overrun by the effects of global warming.

Mr Chairperson, the issue of our missions which the hon. Minister mentioned, has been raised. We are opening a mission in Ghana, Saudi Arabia and Australia. We are not actually opening these missions, but re-opening them. We had a mission in Ghana, Saudi Arabia, as some of you will remember, and Australia, where the former Deputy Speaker, Mr Mwila, was in fact High Commissioner when I was hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs. These are not new missions that we are opening, but they are old because we realise that it is important for us to continue working with these countries in close liaison in order to to produce the best possible results for Zambia.

Zambia has eight neighbouring countries. I would like to commend the hon. Minister, and his officials, through the Joint Permanent Commissions of Co-operation with these countries, for maintaining peace with eight neighbouring countries, which is not easy. This is one of the few countries which has eight neighbouring countries in the world. For us to maintain peace with all the eight neighbouring countries has not been an easy task for us to achieve. Our competent officials in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs must be commended for having done a good job in ensuring that we continue to enjoy this peace.

Zambia is also involved in many peace initiatives not only on the African continent, but elsewhere because we realise that we are members of the global community in which we live. Because of that, it has strained our resources, but straining resources for Zambia is not new. If you think of how much we spent in playing a major role in Africa’s liberation struggle, you will realise that no price would be too high for peace and no price can ever be too high for Zambia to maintain peace and develop in an atmosphere of peace.

Therefore, I wanted to make these brief contributions in order to answer and assist my colleagues with some of the issues which have been raised by hon. Members.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikatana: Mr Chairperson, let me thank the hon. Members who have taken part in this debate. They have raised issues that we can not risk to ignore. They are issues to do with global warming. Global warming is real and Zambia cannot burry its head in the sand on this matter.

We are thankful for Hon. Chizyuka who has been very consistent on his argument for economic diplomacy. He believes very firmly that not enough has been done on our relationship with Angola to have fought the battle against the Contagious Bovine Pleural Pneumonia (CBPP) much better than has been done so far.

However, I wish to remind this august House that Angola was at war for so long. It was impossible for both Governments to organise programmes against the Contagious Bovine Pleural Pneumonia because of the risks of the landmines. Now that Angola is relatively peaceful, you will be glad to learn that we are engaging Angola in the fight against CBPP. We have been able to raise funds even for the training of Angolan veterinary officers under our own programmes. It is obvious that the advantages we have in having so much in our resources would give us an easier hand at developing, for instance, livestock farming.

Mention has been made again on economic diplomacy. It is obvious that gone are the days when we had missions just for meeting dignitaries at airports without taking advantage of those missions in strengthening economic developments. What we do now is, in fact, train our own diplomats here at the new Government Building. In fact, tomorrow is graduation day at that institute. We believe very firmly that a trained diplomat is the best investment in sourcing development outside your own borders. I am most thankful for the most senior diplomat in Zambia, Hon. Mwaanga. He has been a diplomat through and through. The missions that we are re-opening that he referred to are opportunities for this country to continue diversifying its economy.

I am also thankful to Hon. Matongo although quite a number of times, he wants to imitate other people’s languages which tend to destroy his image, but we shall continue to listen to him and ensure that those of your views that are worth anything shall be listened to and even implemented in Hon. Chibombamilimo’s style.


Mr Sikatana: We would appear not to have attracted many ears because I was listening very patiently to his eloquence in itemising the priorities in the diplomatic levels.

Hon. Chizhyuka, I would like to believe that you would do very well …


Mr Sikatana: No! … as somebody who wants to champion the livestock industry in this country by befriending the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives. He is trained in the field and the earlier we realise that Angola is a huge market for beef, the better.

Hon. Chimbaka, I thank you for your support, you are urging for a well-trained manpower on tourism promotion and a fight against the landmines.

On the landmines, the hon. Members will realise the length of our border that we have to clean of landmines and it is not an easy task.

Finally, I would like to believe that you will now appreciate that we are making efforts to bring instruments to this House, protocols that we have arrears on that we should have acted on. I shall make it a point that I complete the inventory of these protocols and instruments where we have defaulted speedily.

I would like to believe that the likes of Hon. Dr Guy Scott who would debate and leave the House do not benefit us because I would like to respond to a Member of Parliament in his presence. I am not going to argue with him as to whether he managed a bumper harvest or not, except that we went beyond bumper harvest. We did ‘bumpest’.


We, in the New Deal Administration, have never employed a Rhumba maestro in the Diplomatic Service. It is no good to suggest that we have diplomats who go around with guitars because we are a serious-minded Government. On guitars, I offended some people outside this country when I said that there is a certain country that was a colonial empire that left two things for the colonies after independence. They left guns and guitars. You go into some of these countries and when you switch on the television, nine out of ten chances, you will find people dancing.


Mr Sikatana: They are not that happy and they are shooting at each other every so often.

Mr Chairman, I would wish to open my doors even wider for consultations. If you find my door closed, kick it open and …

Hon. UPND Members: Break it!

Mr Sikatana: No!


Mr Sikatana: When you see me going to foreign countries, it is for the benefit of this country.

Mr Muntanga: But you are enjoying yourself!

Mr Sikatana: When I am …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The hon. Minister was about to wind up and you are drawing him back.


Mr Sikatana: When I am being condemned for it, I can only say the fruit will soon show.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 17/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/10 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/11 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/12 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/13 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/15 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/18 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

(Debate adjourned)




(Progress reported)

The House adjourned at 1956 hours until 0900 hours on Friday, 9th March, 2007.