DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE FIRST SESSION OF THE TENTH ASSEMBLY

Friday, 9th March, 2007

The House met at 0900 hours

[MADAM DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

__________

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

The Minister of Defence (Mr Mpombo): Madam Speaker, I would like to give the House some idea of the business it will consider next week.

Madam, on Tuesday, 13th March, 2007, the business of the House will begin with Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will go into Committee of Supply on this year’s Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure and will consider the following Heads:

 Head 26 ─ Ministry of Information and Broadcasting Services;

Head 21 ─ Loans and Investment ─ Ministry of Finance and National Planning;

 Head 37 ─ Ministry of Finance and National Planning; and

 Head 27 ─ Public Service Management Division.

On Wednesday, 14th March, 2007, the business of the House will begin with Questions, if there will any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. After that, the House will consider Private Members’ Motions, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will resolve into Committee of Supply on this year’s Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure and will consider the following Heads:

 Head 33 ─ Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry;

 Head 34 ─ Human Rights Commission;and

 Head 44 ─ Ministry of Labour and Social Security.

On Thursday, 15th March, 2007, the business of the House will begin with Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. After that, the House will resolve into Committee of Supply on this year’s Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure and will consider the following Heads:

 Head 46 ─ Ministry of Health;

 Head 51 ─ Ministry of Communications and Transport;

 Head 64 ─ Ministry of Works and Supply; and

 Head 65 ─ Ministry of Science, Technology and Vocational Training.

Madam, on Friday, 16th March, 2007, the business of the House will begin with the Vice-President’s Question Time. Then the House will consider Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will resolve into Committee of Supply on this year’s Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure and the following Heads will be considered:

 Head 68 ─ Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources;

 Head 76 ─ Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development; and

 Head 77 ─ Ministry of Defence.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

__________

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the Chair]

VOTE 17 ─ (Ministry of Foreign Affairs ─ K166,846,203279).

(Consideration resumed)

Vote 17/20 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/23 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/24 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/25 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/25 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/26 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Vote 17/27 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/28 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/30 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/31 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/32 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/33 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/35 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 17/36 ─ (Ministry of Foreign Affairs ─ Mission Abroad ─Paris ─ K4,495,461,940).

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Chairperson, I would like to seek clarification on Sub-head 2, Programme 2, Activity 01 ─ Office Administration ─ K338,669,473. Last year, we had a provision of K14.7 billion and it has been reduced to K338 million this year. I want to find out why there is that discrepancy.

The Minister of Foreign Affairs (Mr Sikatana): Mr Chairperson, on Sub-head 2, Programme 2, Activity 01 ─ K338,669,473, there are two reasons for this. On Canada, …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

We are looking at Head 17/36.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

I will allow Hon. Mukanga to repeat the question. Can we all pay attention, please.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Sub-head 2, Programme 2, Activity 01 – Office Administration ─ K338,669,473. Last year, an amount of K700 million was budgeted and there was a supplementary estimate of K14 billion. The total amount budgeted and approved for was K14.7 billion. The ministry, this year, is asking for K338 million. The reduction is too much. I want to find out why this has happened.

Mr Sikatana: Mr Chairperson, the decrease is due to the reduction in the capital expenditure. Last year, we were paying for a chancery. The lowering in the amount this year is because we cannot spend the same amount as we did last year when we were buying property. Therefore, this year’s reduction is what would be expected of expenditure by a mission.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, I am wondering that we have recurrent and capital expenditure mixed under Office Administration. I was thinking this is recurrent expenditure.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Sikatana: Mr Chairperson, the hon. Member has said that he is wondering. Let him continue wondering.

Thank you, Sir.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! The Chair has to come in. The question was that he is wondering why there is a mix up of recurrent and capital expenditure. The hon. Minister should address that issue and not the wondering aspect of it.

Laughter

Mr Sikatana: Mr Chairperson, capital expenditure is within general administration in the budget.

Thank you, Sir.

Vote 17/36 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/37 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/38 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/39 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/40 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/41 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 17/42 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Africa, Africa Union and Middle East – K2,110,313,142).

Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 7, Activities 01, 02, 03 and 04. Last year, no allocation was made to these activities. Could the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs explain why these activities have been budgeted for this year.

Interruptions

Hon. PF Members: They do not read!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Members, just by way of guidance, when a question is asked, we should pay a little more attention. Otherwise, we will delay our proceedings.

Mr Mwila, can you repeat your question.

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Chairperson, the problem is that they do not read.

The Deputy Chairperson: Come to the question.

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 7, Activities 01, 02, 03 and 04. Last year, did not budget for these activities, but this year they have. I would like clarification from the hon. Minister why this is the case.

The Deputy Chairperson: What page is that? Page 209 I suppose?

Mr D. Mwila: Page 208, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Page 208.

Mr D. Mwila: Yes, Programme 7, Activities 01, 02, 03 and 04, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: Mr Mwila, there are two Programme 7s. There is Programme 7 – Multi-lateral Relations between Asia and Africa and Programme 7 – Political and Economic Relations Between Zambia and Europe. Which one are you referring to?

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Chairperson, I am referring to the one on page 208.

The Deputy Chairperson: Even on that page, there are two Programme 7s. Therefore, which one?

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Chairperson, let me repeat myself.

The Deputy Chairperson: That is right.

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Chairperson, I am referring to Programme 7 – Bilateral Relations Between Zambia, African Countries and the Middle East, Activities 01, 02, 03 and 04. Last year, they did not budget for these activities. I would like the hon. Minister to explain why they have budgeted for them this year.

Mr Sikatana: Mr Chairperson, these are new activities. They could not have been budgeted for last year when they were not there. As new activities, we are budgeting for them because they are there this year.

Vote 17/42 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 17/43 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Missions Abroad Brazilia – K4,706,838,268).

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Sub-head 2, Programme 1, Activity 01– Salaries Division 1 – K2,066,779,679. We have been told that this is a new mission that will be opened. If you look at the budget for 2006, they had budgeted for K2,066,779,679, but this year it has been reduced K175,905,162. Could I have an explanation from the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs for that reduction from K2,066,779,679 to K175,905,162.

Mr Sikatana: Mr Chairperson, the decrease is due to spreading the allocations to Divisions 1 and 2 salaries and other Foreign Service allowances.

I thank you, Sir!

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Chairperson, this is a new mission and we expect the people there to get their salaries. Could the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs explain if that K175,905,162 is enough for them to be paid the whole year.

Mr Sikatana: Mr Chairperson, this is a new mission and you do not send a full force of staff to a new mission. Therefore, the amount that we have allocated is sufficient.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze): Mr Chairperson, I would like the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs to inform the House whether the Luena appearing in the Yellow Book is the one in Barotseland and whether we are establishing a mission there.

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Mwiimbu is referring to something under a different Head from the one that we are considering. We are now considering Head 17/43 Brazilia and not that Head.

Vote 1743 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 17/45 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Mission Abroad – Luena – K4,541,305,531).

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on this Luena. Is it the one in Barotseland. If it is not, may he inform us where this Luena is.

Mr Sikatana: Mr Chairperson, this Luena is in Angola. There are two other Luenas. One in Kawambwa and another in Mongu, but this particular one is in Angola.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 17/45 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/47 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE – 17/49 (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Great Lakes Region – K806,245,392).

Mr D. Mwila: Sir, may I have clarification on Sub-head 1, Programme 10, Activities 01 Awareness Campaigns – K19,300,000 and 02 – Election Monitoring and Verification – K23,799,987. I would like to find out if there will be elections conducted there.

Mr Sikatana: Mr Chairperson, this is a new activity whose provision is for meeting the payment of allowances and buying air tickets for officers accompanying the Minister, Permanent Secretaries and special envoy on visits to the Great Lakes region and to attend meetings of the African Union (AU).

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. PF Members: Elections!

Mr Sikatana: Yes!

Vote 17/49 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 18 – (Judiciary – K77,431,119,774)and VOTE 31 – (Ministry of Justice – K260,232,070,124).

The Deputy Chairperson: As I stated earlier, we will consider these two Heads at the same time. You can address yourselves to one of them or both of them because we are going to consider them together.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to deliver a policy statement on the Judiciary and the Ministry of Justice.

I would like to start with the Judiciary. Following the enactment of the Judicature Administration Act of 1994 a number of steps have been taken to achieve the autonomy of the Judicature. The Judiciary has had to undergo a management audit which came up with a mission statement and an appropriate organisation structure was evolved.

Sir, basically, the implementation of the autonomy of the Judicature involves two critical stages, namely, restructuring and the delinkage of administrative staff from the Public Service Commission to the Judicial Service Commission. The process of restructuring which has been completed has enabled the Judiciary engage the Public Service Management Division to work out the modalities of transferring staff from the Public Service Commission to the Judicial Service Commission. Headway has been made in the transfer of staff from the Public Service Commission to the Judicial Service Commission. The Judiciary had to agree with the Public Service Commission on the best way of effecting this in a way which was of least cost to the Government and in the interest of the staff.

In the meantime, it has been agreed that employees recruited by the Public Service Commission be seconded to the Judiciary and work under the Judicial Service Commission Conditions of Service. The process of transfer of employees will be completed by mid-2007.

Mr Chairperson, the function of an autonomous Judiciary is to adjudicate and provide an efficient and effective administration of justice for the benefit of society. This is why a new structure has been put in place, but this will require filling of a number of vacancies with qualified and motivated personnel which will require careful planning and increased levels of funding.

In order to enhance efficiency and effective delivery of justice in the country, areas which require additional resources from the Treasury include the following:

Court Houses

Sir, we need to increase the number of court houses to cater for the increased population and new districts. The current number of court houses is not enough. Some are in a state of disrepair. The hon. Members will bear with me that the floods which we have witnessed this year have not only destroyed dwelling houses, but court houses as well. We, therefore, need additional funding so that we can replace and rehabilitate court houses.

Sir, we will also need money to pay for rent for Magistrates. Transport is also necessary, especially for Magistrates who hold court sessions in other districts. I am talking about court circuiting which means moving from district to district holding court sessions. Equipment like computers, copiers and recorders are needed to improve efficiency. Staff gratuity will also be necessary for Local Court Justices and members of the Industrial Relations Court. Some Magistrates are employed on contract and they will need to be paid their gratuity when their contracts come to an end.

Mr Chairperson, in the past year, the Government provided funds for the rehabilitation of some court buildings. Five new court buildings were constructed while another five were rehabilitated in Southern Province. In addition, some rehabilitation works were commenced in various parts of the country. However, this have not been adequate to produce the kind of impact we would like to see. It is the wish of the Government to provide courthouses that have adequate facilities and are conducive to the effective and efficient administration of justice.

Sir, in this year’s Budget, provision has been made or will be made to construct courthouses in each province. The Government has initiated plans to turn Venus Theatre Building in Kabwe into a court house to house the High Court and the Supreme Court.

Mr Chairperson, as regards the training of Magistrates, the Judiciary has been forced to operate below its establishment for Magistrates. This has affected the disposal of cases thereby creating a backlog of cases. Rural districts do have Magistrates’ residents there. As a way of addressing the problem, the Judiciary has been training Magistrates at NIPA, UNZA and Zambia Institute of Advanced Legal Education (ZIALE). The Government is alive to the fact that to retain the trained Magistrates, they must be adequately remunerated and motivated, hence, the need to improve funding to the Judiciary. Therefore, I would urge hon. Members to approve the Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure for the Judiciary.{mospagebreak}

Ministry of Justice

Mr Chairperson, the function of the Ministry of Justice is to facilitate the administration of justice and promote the observance of the rule of law in order to enhance good governance both locally and internationally. Our goal is to provide efficient and effective legal services to the Government and related institutions, the general public and the international community in order to enhance their access to justice.

Sir, we will achieve our functions, missions and goals through the following departments:

The Human Resources and Administration Department

Sir, this department will play a vital role in the recruitment, placement, development and separation of staff in the ministry. I am pleased to inform this august House that my ministry has managed to attract recruit and retain a good number of lawyers. The Directorate of Legal Aid now has a full complement of lawyers at the lower level. We have deployed some lawyers to Livingstone, Kabwe, Ndola and Kitwe to beef up the establishments there.

Sir, furthermore, the ministry has, in the past three years, been sponsoring learner legal practitioners at ZIALE and bonding them after they complete. This has worked wonders in elevating the shortage of lawyers. However, we still have a problem of retaining senior lawyers. This year, my ministry seeks to procure second hand vehicles to be given on loan to staff and also to computerise the registry in order to make the retrieval of information easier and quicker.

The Legislative Drafting Department

Sir, in the Attorney-General’s Chamber, the Legislative Drafting Department will continue with its role of drafting legislation and this is important for this august House. This department will, in the course of this year, draft several Bills in order to implement the Government’s 2007 Legislative Programme. The department also intends to commence work on the revision of the laws of Zambia for the next edition of the laws of Zambia. As the House may be aware, the last edition of the laws was done in 1995 and we are terribly behind.

The Civil Litigation, Debt Collection and Prerogative of Mercy Department

Mr Chairperson, the Civil Litigation and Debt Collection and Prerogative of Mercy Department will continue its duty to prosecute and defend civil actions against the state, in accordance with the law. The department will also continue to perform the function of providing legal opinions and advice to the President on the exercise of the prerogative of mercy provided under Article 59 of the Constitution.

The Directorate of Public Prosecutions Office

Sir, this will also continue with its responsibility of public criminal prosecutions as provided under the Constitution, but this year, we will embark on the following activities such as:

(a) formulation of a National Prosecution Policy which will guide the operations of the Director of Public Prosecutions Office; and

(b) introduction of a code of conduct for state advocates and prosecutors. The code will require prosecutors to be fair and effective and act without fear, favour or prejudice. It will also require all prosecutors to respect human dignity and human rights and perform their duties in accordance with the spirit of the Constitution and the rule of law.

The Administrator General and Official Receiver Department

Sir, this department has two divisions. There is the Administrator General’s division and the Official Receiver’s division, both of which form the department of Administrator General and Official Receiver.

Mr Chairperson, the overall objective of the department for 2007 is to improve and expand the management of deceased estates and estates in bankruptcy and monitor all liquidations and receiverships.

Sir, the legal department was created to provide legal aid to any citizen of Zambia, with emphasis on the less privileged in society, notably, those with insufficient means to hire the services of private legal practitioners. The department was transformed into a board in 2005 and is currently in transition and should be fully independent and operational between this year and next year.

Sir, so far, the board members have been appointed and are involved in the following activities:

(a) identifying and procurement of permanent offices;

(b) employment of staff and redeployment of officers not retained from the former Legal Aid Department;

(c) procurement of necessary equipment and furniture to ease operations; and

(d) finalising conditions of service.

Mr Chairperson, through the Access to Justice Programme, the department intends to construct two justice houses in Chipata and Mongu this year. This will be done with the assistance of co-operating partners. It will facilitate the decentralisation of operations of the Legal Aid Board and take justice closer to the people.

My ministry will continue to carry out its responsibilities and mandate of advising the Government on various agreements and treaties and participation in negations at bilateral and multilateral levels.

Sir, the grant aided institutions which receive grants through my ministry include the following:

(a) Zambia Law Development Commission;

(b) Zambia Institute of Advanced Legal Education; and
(b) Judicial Complaints Authority.

Mr Chairperson, all these will carry on with their respective responsibilities in accordance with the Act constituting them.

This year a secretariat will be set up for the Governance Development Unit. This has been included in the Fifth National Development Plan.

Mr Chairperson, on the Constitutional Review Process, the Government received the report containing the recommendations of the Constitutional Review Process Implementation Committee. These recommendations were considered by Cabinet which came up with an impeccable roadmap…

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kunda: … for enacting a new Republican Constitution through a Constituent Assembly.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kunda: The Constitutional Review Process is on course. This year alone, K202,563,823,000 has bee allocated in the budget to conducting a census whose purpose is to determine the number of persons entitled to be registered as voters, advertising expenses and other administrative expenses for the Constitutional Review Implementation Committee and its secretariat. The committee will be tasked with all preparatory work prior to the holding of a Constituent Assembly.

Sir, the major constraints for 2006 included:

(a) lack of adequate transport;

(b) shortage of legislative draftspersons; and

(c) inadequate office space.

Sir, my ministry does not have adequate office space. The situation has been compounded by the increase in lawyers.

Mr Chairperson, I now proceed to present my Ministerial Budget for 2007 and urge this. August House to support it.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo (Bangweulu): Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank you for giving me this opportunity to support the Vote before us.

In doing so, I would like to state that the hon. Minister has always demonstrated efficiency and commitment to his duties and should be supported by all of us.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: The hon. Minister of Justice has demonstrated to all of us that his exceptional performance can contribute and has contributed to the development of our country. This is what we are looking for. He is a person who will respond to your letter within a short time.

Unfortunately, this quality cannot be found in some of our hon. Ministers. When you go to their offices, they will keep you waiting for hours. For example, when you make an appointment to go and see them the following day, they will tell you that there is no problem, but immediately you arrive at their office, the secretary will keep you in the waiting room. In my view, Hon. Kunda is exceptional

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: Mr Chairperson, after complimenting Hon. Kunda, I would like to appeal to him to ensure the local court that was begun in 2005 is completed as quickly as possible.

Through the Chair, Hon. Daka, could you, please, allow the hon. Minister of Justice to listen to my debate.

Mr Daka stopped talking to Mr Kunda.

Mr Kasongo: Thank, you for listening.

Laughter

Mr Kasongo: Mr Chairperson, I am making a passionate appeal to the hon. Minister of Justice …

Mr Daka: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Laughter

Mr Daka: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Member, who is debating so well, in order to allege that I a distracting the hon. Minister of Justice when, in fact, it was the hon. Justice Minister who was consulting with me? Is he in order?

Laugher

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Well, the Chair will not address himself to the substance, but procedure. In addressing the hon. Minister of Justice, the hon. Member should have addressed the Chair. You were talking to him directly, hence, the point of order. Therefore, next time, address the Chair, then, you will be protected.

Could the hon. Member on the Floor continue.

Mr Kasongo: Most obliged, Sir.

Sir, I was appealing to the hon. Minister of Justice to ensure that the construction of Mulakwa Local Court, which started in 2005, is completed as quickly as possible. As you are aware the contractor came from Mansa. We made a decision, through the Office of the District Commissioner, that the funds which had been allocated for the construction of Mulakwa Local Court fell under the jurisdiction of the District Tender Committee. However, the province selected a party cadre to construct that local court. As a result, when you go to inspect the works, you will be disappointed. Therefore, we need additional funds to complete the project and construct two staff houses.

Secondly, I would to acknowledge the fact that we had made a request, through the hon. Minister of Justice, for a magistrate to be sent Samfya. I am happy to report that after using their own microscope, they selected a magistrate from Eastern Province. We are happy that he is learning the art of eating fish.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: Sooner than later, we will convert him into a fisherman. He is so happy with the environment and is saying, ‘My cousin, you did extremely well to bring me here,’ and we are so proud of him. However, we would like to appeal to the hon. Minister to ensure that he is mobile. He needs a vehicle. At the same time, the officers who are complementing his efforts are just using a typewriter. We would, therefore, like to appeal to the hon. Minister to ensure modern technological equipment is bought for them. In other words, I am appealing to the hon. Minister to procure computers for Samfya District Magistrate’s Court. By so doing, our cousin will be able to discharge his responsibilities to the best of his ability.

Mr Chairperson, I would also like to appeal to the hon. Minister to ensure there is proper accountability of all the funds generated by the local courts, magistrate courts and the courts up to the highest level. In my view, this is an institution which can complement the efforts of the hon. Minster of Finance and National Planning. You are talking about generating revenue and I am positive that if there is proper accountability in the Judiciary, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning will be able to implement most of the programmes that have been reflected in the Yellow Book. Therefore, hon. Minister, make sure that every ngwee that is collected by the Judiciary is accounted for 100 per cent and put to good use.

If some officers are found wanting, take action as quickly as possible because the situation is not healthy. We know a number of judicial officers from the local court to the highest level involved in the misappropriation of funds. You know the negative impact this can have on the Ministry of Finance and National Planning and even on your own ministry. This would mean most of the programmes that we would like to implement may not be implemented. Please, put emphasis on accountability at all levels.

Mr Chairperson, let me also compliment the hon. Minister of Justice for appealing against the judgment that was made by a lower court awarding Mr Mathani K52 billion. That appeal has been made and I would like to see justice being done as quickly as possible. It is unbelievable that K52 billion can be awarded to one individual, and yet when you look at an indigenous…

Mr Daka: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Daka: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Member who is debating so well in order to debate something which is under the jurisdiction of the courts of law.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: We are discussing the Ministry of Justice and the Judiciary. I think it is a matter that has already been disposed of by the courts.

Hon. Government Members: No, it has not!

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: I hear this is an issue which is still before the courts of law. In this case, you can talk generally rather than refer specifically to this case which is before the courts of law. Can you take that into account as you debate.

Mr Kasongo: I am grateful, Mr Chairperson.

I was just appealing to the hon. Minister to speed up the process. Thank you.

Finally, there is this question of …

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwiimbu: It is on a point of procedure. Mr Chairperson, I seek your guidance whether it is allowable and procedural in this House for an hon. Member to raise two points of order on one issue that is on the Floor of the House?

The Deputy Chairperson: This point of order is actually relevant. Sometimes, the presiding officers make mistakes. That is unprocedural. It was a mistake. Therefore, let us take this into account as we proceed. One person is not allowed to raise two points of order on the same issue.

Can you continue.

Mr Kasongo: Mr Chairperson, I would also like to appeal to the hon. Minister of Justice to put in place measures that will decongest prisons. Of late, there has been an exchange of words between His Lordship, the Chief Justice, and the Commissioner of Prisons with regard to who is responsible for the congestion of prisons and so on. The little experience that I have is that the Prisons Service is just given the responsibility of taking care of those who have been apprehended by the police.  They are supposed to take the would-be prisoners, so to speak, to court. So, it is entirely up to the court to expedite the process.

Therefore, if we have a shortage of judges, it is up to the hon. Minister of Justice to ensure that they employ more judges as quickly as possible. We have even seen the window of opportunity which can be utilised by the hon. Minister of Justice. There are so many qualified lawyers in the private sector who would like to be appointed to the Judiciary. So, it is up to him, as a learned person, to tap that talent. There are so many lawyers who would like to serve as judges so that the congestion in prisons becomes a thing of the past.

Finally, Sir, we have talked about poor conditions of service for our judicial officers starting from clerical officers up to the highest officer. Of late, we have seen that the concentration of improved conditions of service has been at the apex of the Judiciary, that is the judges. I think we should also look at the level of the magistrates and local court justices. They also need salaries which can enable them have three meals a day and send their children to school without difficulty. You should not only concentrate on improving the conditions of services of the judges, but all levels must be affected. In other words, the package that you put in place, hon. Minister, should embrace all levels and not only judges because all of them are employees of the Judiciary. If you want to motivate all these workers, you will have to make sure that all levels are attended to.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Syakalima (Siavonga): Mr Chairperson, thank you for according me this time to contribute to the debate on the Vote for the Ministry of Justice.

Sir, I would like to concentrate on good governance vis a vis the Constitution making process.

Sir, I think that the Government has not been honest enough to the people of Zambia.

Mr Mwiimbu: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Syakalima: When they initiated the Constitution Review Commission (CRC), President Mwanawasa told the country that he wanted to be trusted and that within five years, the Constitution would be made. We found out that the CRC took a lot of time as they were trying to buy time. After the CRC finished collecting data from Zambians, the Government, again, constituted a committee to look at the CRC Draft Constitution. Thereafter, today, again, the Government has constituted a committee to look at the roadmap, Constituent Assembly and all those things. And yet, Zambians, in 2006, had actually demanded that they wanted the Constitution even before the 2006 elections, but that went past them. Again, today, we are prolonging the process. The acting Vice-President, Hon. Mpombo, said we would have these proceedings some time somewhere in 2009. For those who want to buy time, the danger of that is that it catches up with you.
Mr Mwiimbu: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: Just think about this calmly. A Constitution is a charter between the governed and those who are governing. A charter is not a preserve of those who are in Government. Suppose, today, under the current Constitution, a person who may not be as decent as President Mwanawasa, if at all he is decent, became president, would you want to be governed under the same Constitution?

Hon. UPND Members: No!

Mr Syakalima: What you must understand is that we do not legislate decency, honesty, humility, meekness and truthfulness. All these are individual qualities that are not contained in the Constitution.

Mr Mwiimbu: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: My honourable colleagues know very well that under the circumstances, if you had a different president under this current Constitution, you would never want to be governed under it because of the way it is tailored. We will not be lucky all the time to have a decent president. You must remember that we will not always be lucky. Do not tell me that President Mwanawasa is leaving in 2011 because this same Constitution tells you that if the President woke up convinced that he wanted to have early elections, he can dissolve this Parliament. He will go under the same Constitution and somebody will just spring up and become president because strange things happen in Africa.

Mr Chairperson, Zambians are capable of voting for anybody and if we are caught up in such a state of affairs – do not think you are outside this realm – each one of us would have to look for where to go to and yet we have an opportunity now to make sure that we tighten certain loose things in this constitution. Do not also say that, ‘Why do you think we can have elections,’ because you, yourselves, as hon. Members, can dissolve yourselves. Do not tell me that we cannot do that because we cannot afford. It is provided for in this Constitution. There are certain things that are so extenuating that you may decide not to go ahead. You will still be under the same Constitution. Again, someone from nowhere would wake up and get the presidency. What would you do?

History teaches us so many lessons. In Germany, when Hitler started killing the Jews, the Protestants said, we are Protestants and not Jews and, therefore, we are not affected. When he turned to the Roman Catholics, the Protestants still said they were not Catholic but Protestants. When he went to the trade unionists, they said they were not trade unionists but Protestants. When he was finished with everybody, what did he do? He went to the Protestants, and what did they have to say?

Mr Chairperson, equally, all of us are caught up in this web of confusion. One day, we will say, ‘We wish we had done this; we have now been caught up. Look at the current person president who is misusing his powers.’ If you do not know, there are very few people who cannot misuse power. If President Mwanawasa wanted today, he can be what he wants to be. This Constitution can make the most decent person become a dictator. We must pray to God that we are lucky that …

Ms Mulasikwanda: On a point of order, Sir.

Interruptions

Mr Syakalima: We must be happy that so far …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

I think we are not doing what we are supposed to. We should let the hon. Member on the Floor debate. If you want to offer a counter argument, do indicate and you will be given a chance to debate. This is how the House should proceed. So, let us listen and, at an appropriate time, if you want to rebut what has been said, you can do it. 
Can the hon. Member continue, please.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: What I am saying is that we have an opportunity now. It is not that I want the Constitution so much, but I want us to look ahead. If we close our eyes today, we shall inevitably become blind even to the future. I am afraid of the future. Let us protect ourselves because the future is bleak and it can only be protected if we have a road map that shortens our resolve to have a new Constitution. Already, President Mwanawasa’s term is coming to an end. Let him leave something that will protect us and even him, as a President. This Constitution will never protect all of you.

In Tonga we say, Ntole Ntole ijana kali kule.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Syakalima: Literally, this means that if you delay certain things, you can be caught napping. Sometimes, we behave like someone who is feeding a crocodile with meat hoping to be eaten last. When the meet finishes, the crocodile will eat you. We should not be like that. We are not talking about crucifying President Mwanawasa in the new Constitution. Nobody is saying that. However, from the behaviour of the Government it seems as if there is something that they are afraid of. This is a bad Constitution made by bad people.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: Do you want to continue the legacy of bad people? You will also be judged as people who carried over bad things. I find it extremely difficult to understand because President Mwanawasa had said that we should trust him. That was a promise. In the dictionary of morals, a false promise is theft of trust by calculated pretence.

Hon. Mwiimbu: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mr Syakalima: And God forbids that. So, colleagues in Government, I want to appeal to you to ensure that we safeguard the future of our children, ourselves and yourselves. The Constitution is the only yardstick that can control a leader who wants to be a dictator. Mind you, man has the propensity of doing wrong even where he is not supposed to. If we were all decent, there would not have been any robots because we would have been giving each other a chance to pass. However, because of the propensity of man to commit wrong, there are robots. That is also why, in this House, there is a yellow light to tell me that my time is almost up. I must be controlled because if I am not, I can talk for one hour.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: Mr Chairperson, this is what Constitutions do. Some people, by nature, are indecent and lack meekness and humility. They are just bad people by nature and if, one day, they find themselves up there, they must be controlled by an instrument called a Constitution which is a charter between the governed and those who are governing. My hon. Colleagues, this is my last appeal to you.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development (Ms Mulasikwanda): Mr Chairperson, I rise to contribute to the debate on the Vote.
Sir, I totally agree that there is need for this House to consider and support the budget that has been put forward by the hon. Minister of Justice.

Mr Chairperson, the local courts in this country, especially the rural areas where I come from, truly need this money. You cannot even like to call the buildings some of the local authorities are operating from courts. That is why I support this budget. Even the courts in towns except Lusaka, where new courts have been built which are very good, are in poor condition. We need to support this budget so that we improve on what the Government is doing so far. Now, in terms of the Constitution…

Interruptions

Ms Mulasikwanda: Do not worry about what I am saying.

Hon. Opposition Members: We are worried.

Ms Mulasikwanda: In terms of the roadmap for the Constitution that the hon. Member has just mentioned, ...

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Ms Mulasikwanda: … I want to ask this House to be at peace and reflect on what our country needs. I want to believe and know that His Excellency President Mwanawasa initiated the change of the current Constitution to a new one.
 
Hon. Opposition Members: He did not initiate it.

Ms Mulasikwanda: It is the President, himself, who initiated it. I remember that at that time I was still in the Opposition and …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

No, you see, this is what I meant. When he was debating I told the hon. Members on my right, whom I heard making comments whilst seated, to let him debate and listen. Now she is debating, I am making a similar appeal. Give her time. If you have a different view, you will put it across when your time comes. Do not engage her.

Can the hon. Member on the Floor continue.

Ms Mulasikwanda: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. I was saying that I was still in the Opposition when His Excellency the President initiated the new Constitution which is now on the Floor. I remember very well that when some hon. Members of Parliament who were in the Opposition were approached to be part of the process …

Mr Muntanga: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, is my cousin and wife in order to drop the tempo of this debate to very low levels where the people are losing interest? Is she in order?

The Deputy Chairperson: That point of order gives the Chair an opportunity to give further …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: …guidance to the House. That point of order is actually misplaced and out of order. The level at which she is debating is the tempo which the Chair likes.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Yes, if you raise the tempo, you create a lot of commotion and tension in the House. So, I think, hon. Deputy Minister, that is the correct tempo.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Do not go beyond that.

Can you continue.

Ms Mulasikwanda: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. I was saying some hon. Members of Parliament were affected by the same Constitution which was to be redone. I know one of them is here now in the ruling party, Hon. Tetamashimba. He was expelled from his party because he wanted to be part and parcel of the new Constitution making process. That is why I am saying that this was an initiative of His Excellency the President, Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC. I want to believe that he did that because, as a Christian, he saw that the Constitution which was put in place in 1996 was extremely amiss in that individuals were affected. It was not a Constitution for the Zambian people, but was put in place to target only two classes of individuals. Firstly, it was against Dr Kaunda and, secondly, the beloved chiefs of this country. Therefore, the Government saw that there was need to put in place a Constitution that would stand the test of time and that would include all the Zambian people. It is completely wrong for someone to mislead the people, today, by saying that this Government is now refusing to put a new Constitution in place when they initiated the process themselves.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Mulasikwanda: I was in Kabwe yesterday. The fields in the entire Kabwe starting from Kabwe Rural in Chibombo up to Kabwe Town, especially those belonging to peasant farmers, have been badly affected by floods. What I mean here is that it would not be good for us to start debating about the Constitution …

Interruptions

Ms Mulasikwanda: …that is going to cost a lot of money. This is a Constitution that is going to cost billions and billions of money.

Interruptions

Ms Mulasikwanda: This year, Mr Chairperson …

Dr Machungwa: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised!

Dr Machungwa: Mr Chairperson, I am a little worried with the debate of the hon. Deputy Minister who is contradicting Government policy, as stated by the Acting Leader of Government Business in the House, that the Constitution process is on track. Is the hon. Deputy Minister in order to say that the Constitution cannot be looked at now because there are floods? Is she in order to contradict the Government’s position in this House?

The Deputy Chairperson: The hon. Deputy Minister, can you take that point of order into account as you debate. The truth is that, as earlier stated by the learned hon. Minster of Justice, the Constitution is one of the subjects that we can talk about in the two Votes we are debating.
Can you continue.

Ms Mulasikwanda: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Actually, I am disappointed because Hon. Dr Machungwa is my brother-in-law …

Laughter

Ms Mulasikwanda: … and I would not like him to continue with that when some Zambians were affected by this Constitution which he participated in making and that is now being corrected.

Mr D Mwila: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised. I am allowing that point of order, but it will be the last point of order on the hon. Deputy Minister.

Mr D Mwila: Mr Chairperson, I rise on a very serious point of order. Is the hon. Deputy Minister in order to be confrontational with regard to hon. Dr Machungwa in her debate?

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! That may be the way she debates. However, do not increase the tempo, otherwise, you see what is happening now.

Can you continue.

Ms Mulasikwanda: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. I am talking about the Constitution that was brought which discriminated against some individuals. The Zambian people are now trying to put in place a Constitution that is not going to discriminate against any one of us. 
Interruptions

Ms Mulasikwanda: I was saying that there are heavy floods. It is up to this House to decide and make a precise decision whether we will save the people from hunger, which this country will be faced with because of the floods or get all the money and call for a constituent assembly which will look at this Constitution.

My advice is that it will not be good for the Zambian people for us to start looking at the constituent assembly that is going to cost us a lot of money. It will be better for us to look at the disaster which is ahead of us. This is the time the Government, supported by the Zambian people, needs to put all its resources together so that our people are not faced with hunger. I am talking like this because I am a mother and I am affected.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Ms Mulasikwanda: Yesterday, we celebrated International Women’s Day. The word ‘women’ means that we have been made stronger because of the bone that we have been made from. We are the mothers of all human creation.

Interruptions

Ms Mulasikwanda: Therefore, we cannot look at trivial matters now. We need to look at the lives of the people and how they are going to be saved.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Mulasikwanda: That is why I would like to ask for total support. We should not be emotional over the constituent assembly … 
Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
Ms Mulasikwanda: … which will cost a lot of money. Let us prioritise all the issues that will affect us now.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Miss Mwamba.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I am the one who decides and you cannot say, ‘Aah.’ I am looking at the list. I do not have to …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Miss Mwamba

Ms Mwamba: Thank you, …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Let us give each other chance to speak. I know that each one of you would be happy to speak. I have ten notes here from hon. Members who are asking me to give them chance to speak, but you should not forget that there are more than 150 hon. Members of Parliament in here. Some of you have spoken three to four times. I am going to ask those that want to speak and have not spoken. I do not like the idea of complaining. Once you do that, I will leave you out. Let us be orderly. I look at various factors when deciding on who to speak. You do not have debate  three or four times and so on. If I have had two or three hon. Members of Parliament speak from the Government, I ought to go elsewhere. Therefore, there are various issues that I look at. Do not tell me what to do. I know what I am doing.

May the hon. Member continue, please.

Ms Mwamba: Mr Chairperson, I would like to comment on Subhead 1, Programme 1, Activity 01 ─ Salaries Division I ─ K130,117,234, Activity 02 ─ Salaries Division II ─ K1,346,385,299 and Activity 03 ─ Salaries Division III ─ K177,580,408. I note with trepidation that there is a drastic reduction in salaries from last year to this year and I cannot understand why. I also note a phrase coined ‘Other Emoluments’ has been increased.

Sir, when phrases or pseudonyms like ‘Other Emoluments’ or ‘Lobbying’ are coined and given a reputable amount of money in the Estimates, one gets the feeling that some ill intent is hidden behind such a phrase. While the term ‘salaries’ is very clear. because everybody knows that this money is going to salaries, we are not very sure what ‘other emoluments’ refers to. It is not coherent. We do not really understand. With regard to ‘lobbying’, what are we going to lobby for? We do not really understand.

Mr Chairperson, one gets the feeling that these colossal amounts of money being allocated to such pseudonyms or phrases may be used for something that we do not really understand. We do not even understand the justification for this drastic reduction in salaries in the Judiciary.

Sir, this country is ravaged and stinks of corruption in the rank and file of our Public Service. One of the reasons for this is not far to see. The main reasons is poor remuneration of key officers in the various Government agencies which has become very costly. It has become almost impossible for people to survive on the meagre slave wages which they receive from their employers, especially those that are employed by our listening Government. They are lowly paid and now they have their wages reduced.

Mr Chairperson, you would be sad to know that apart from poor salaries and wages, public workers who are supposed to be dressed in uniforms are very poorly dressed. I will give you an example. Yesterday, when women were doing the march past, I noted that the two lady officers who were ushering different groups past the President wore primary or secondary school shoes, and yet, they were wearing ceremonial uniforms. They have a special type of shoe called number one, as the military people say, which is supposed to go with that kind of uniform. That was a very special and important day and they should have been properly attired, but they were not.

Sir, the only way we can fight corruption in the Public Service is to remunerate these people that are working so hard. Why should we reduce their salaries and where are we taking the money that we remove from the salaries of these people?

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwansa (Chifunabuli): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for the opportunity you have given me to contribute to the Vote on the Floor of the House.

I wish to begin by commending the Ministry of Justice for the work so far done in the ministry and the changes that have taken place. We can see a lot of work coming from the Attorney-General’s Chambers and we are happy as lawyers for that. However, I would like to add that a lot still needs to be done to ensure that there is a lot more output from the Attorney-General’s Chambers and that justice is administered as quickly as possible.

I have only three points that I want to raise in this House concerning this particular Vote. The first is to do with the salaries, particularly of magistrates. I think we are all aware of the fact that magistrates have gone on strike a number of times. It is a clear cry that something is wrong with the remuneration that we are giving to the people who carry the bulk of the cases in our country. Most of the resolutions or solutions to legal disputes are actually in the hands of magistrates. We would do well to remunerate them adequately in order to motivate them and ensure that justice is speedily done.
Secondly, I come to an issue that is of great concern not only to me and hon. Members of this House, but to the entire country and this is the issue of the Constitution of the Republic of Zambia; a grund norm; the law that divides the powers of individuals; the law that separates the responsibilities of the governors and the governed and also separates those who govern into the Judicature, Legislature as well as Executive. This law is fundamental and people moved. A Constitution is not made by any group of people, but by all the people of a country. It is important that we take into account this particular document and agree, as a people, as concerns its contents.

If I am asked what the problem with our Constitution making process is, my answer would simply be we lack of political will, and this has been the case all the time. I am happy to stand on the other side of the House to talk about the Constitution because the last time I talked about it, I was part of the Government.

One of the fundamental problems that we faced in constitutional changes was the provision of Article 79(3) of the current Constitution. The difficulty of that particular law is that it is virtually impossible to comply with it. That is why, as far as I am concerned, constitutional amendment is going to be extremely difficult for our country. This law says, and let me quote it so that everyone of us knows:

‘A Bill for the alteration of Part III of this Constitution shall not be passed unless before the First Reading of the Bill in the National Assembly it has been put to a national referendum with or without amendments by not less than 50 per cent of persons entitled to be registered as voters for the purposes of presidential and parliamentary elections.’

The difficulty is that it is very difficulty to get the 50 per cent of persons entitled to be registered as voters for the purposes of presidential and parliamentary elections because people are graduating in terms of age and becoming eligible almost everyday. This has been the difficulty and I raised it when I was that side of the House. How do we go around it? I was hoping that our friends would help, but I have been thinking about this issue and there is only one solution to go around this problem. The solution does not lie in amending the Constitution, but in creating a new Constitution that does not depend on the current Constitution.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwansa: When we go that way, we do not need, for example, the requirement that we put it to a national referendum. The requirement to put it to a national referendum is created because we desire to amend the current Constitution. This is the problem we will always entangle ourselves in. If we want o change our Constitution, let us do what the Americans did. Let us get a group of people we trust, as Zambians, to enact a Constitution that is new. When it has been enacted, we should  pass it around for ratification. It is as simple as that and we will remove a lot of money out of the picture and we will give us ourselves a Constitution which will last. I want to add that when the Americans were making that Constitution, …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1045 hours until 1100 hours.

Mr Mwansa: Mr Chairperson, when business was suspended, I had just started giving the American example to the Constitution writing programme.

I was saying that the Americans went ahead to write a new Constitution even when there were in existence State constitutions that also provided for methods and mechanisms of amending them. However, because they wanted a law that would encompass the entire United States of America and do away with those local laws in terms of dealing with the State they were to create, they created the law and then ensured that all the inferior laws subscribed to the new Constitution that had been created.

There is no difficulty in doing that even in our country. We repeal laws in this Parliament almost on a yearly basis and we make new laws while old laws exist until they are repealed. The Constitution is the grand law, yes. However, once the people themselves who are the owners of the Constitution have agreed that they want a new Constitution, there is absolutely no difficult at all in creating a new Constitution that subscribes to the requirements of the people themselves and that will then repeal the current Constitution. There would be no conflict at all. In my view, that is the way forward because it avoids spending excessive amounts of money. We are a poor country and cannot afford to waste money even on things we can do without expending too much money. This is my appeal to this House. We have what it takes to make the necessary changes to the law.

The people have demanded a constituent assembly. It is up to Parliament to decide on that constituent assembly that can then be mandated to create the new law. It has been done before by others. We do not need to invent another will. The will is already in existence. Let us use what others have used to create the law. We will have difficulties to go around Article 79(3). It is very difficult. It wants every system in place before we can amend the provisions that deal with human rights. There is nothing difficult about changing our Constitution. We just need the political will to do it. We need to resolve within our hearts that we need a Constitution that will stand the test of time and move and do what is required. It is as simple as that.

Let me move on to the third point that I feel is very important. This is to do with the Law Development Commission which I think is extremely important to the development of our country. Sometimes you use the law to foster development. We can use the law to foster development in our country. I will give an example of what looks like our cake in the North-Western Province. This is the issue of the probability of oil in the North-Western Province. That is a chance for us to develop our country, but what do we do first? We should ensure that we have the law that gives power, at least, to land to the local people. Then, whoever wants to do business in this country will have to team up with Zambians who have been allocated those plots. That way, you avoid a situation where all your land goes in the hands of foreigners and then you become beggars to people whom you have empowered to come into your country. It can be done. If it is our desire, as Zambians, to be poor and depend on donors, the way to go is to let them come with their money, get everything and then begin to ask them for money like we are doing.

When we were selling the mines to the foreigners, there was always this problem. We were giving them tax concessions for twenty years and some of us raised the issue. How can you do such a thing? However, the exigencies of the time were that if we did not sell as quickly as we could, we would have had no money to keep the mines running.

Now, those are the problems that arise if you do not plan ahead and that is what we found ourselves in. You are going to find yourselves in the same problems in the Front Bench unless you make the right decisions now.

Mr Chairperson, with regard to the Law Development Commission, there is need, hon. Minister, to look particularly at the Marriage Act. I am one person who is very worried about the system that we have in our country. I know that many heads may turn around and squint at me, but I think that how we marry in our country determines the poverty we always wallow in. When I die today and I am not married under statute, my property will be distributed to every imaginable relative. It does not matter how little it is, everyone will get a share and in the end, there will be nothing left of everything that I built.

Mr Chairperson, the problem starts with the law. We have allowed a dual system of marriage in our country. You can marry under the Act and you can marry under customary law. What is the difficulty in just marrying under one particular law? It is your desire. I know those who want to be polygamists have difficulties with this law.

Laughter

Mr Mwansa: Hon. Minister, this is the problem that has led to our under development. The desire for selfish interests overrides the desire for national interests in our country. I think and suggest that the war on marriage must be won so that when it comes to the distribution of one’s estate, it is clear who their next of kin is. There will be no difficulty. However, where it is uncertain, the consequence is that for every property that you put together, the next generation separates.

Mr Chairperson, I will end with only one point concerning the Trust Account, which I find a little worrying. The Trust Account is an account in which money of the dead is kept for administration purposes. It is a deceased’s estates account. I have found that the sum of K1,971,343,000 has been put in that Trust Account and we are being asked as Parliament to approve this Vote. However, the money kept there is from people who have died. If I may ask a question: Where has this money gone that we should ask Parliament to approve this colossal amount of money to put in an account that ought to have money. A Trust Account already has money. What has happened to the money that was put there in the initial stages from the deceased’s accounts? Where has it gone so that the Government must look for money to put into this account? What has happened, Hon. Magande? Could the Government tell us how money has disappeared from the Trust Account so that the whole country must be asked to give those people whose relatives have died money from public coffers. This is what we require because we need to know, hon. Minister.

I thank you very much.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister for Copperbelt Province (Mr Mbulakulima): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity.

Sir, I stand to support the Vote. In doing so, let me take one particular topic, which is the funding of the constitution-making process. Personally, I believe that the issue of the Constitution has been exaggerated because we seem to agree and mean the same. Probably, there are two categories. You can forgive me for citing the hon. Member of Parliament for Siavonga. From the way he was debating, I conclude he means well. There are others who do not mean well because they have got hidden agendas.

Mr Chairperson, looking at the background of the constitution-making process and the debates going on during that time – as Matty P would say, do not argue because you were not there – some of the factors that were take into account were as follows:

(i) the constitution was being made during the year of elections and people did not like that because of the heat that prevailed during the election year. you cannot make a constitution that can stand the test of time under such circumstances. This Government has taken that into consideration;

(ii) the other issue was the funding which was erratic. For you to have a constitution that can stand the test of time, there is need to have a consistent and prudent allocation of resources to this noble cause. The Government is addressing that;

(iii) the other issue was the stakeholders’ involvement. People argued that three or four of people could not sit and think that they had a monopoly of wisdom and knowledge. There was need for wider participation and that is exactly what the Government is addressing; and

(iv) Another issue was that of a clear road map so that people can know exactly where you are and where you are going. This Government is addressing this issues.

Therefore, you can see that everything possible is being taken into consideration, but where we do we seem to defer? That is why I was saying that it is the question of balancing acts. How do we run our personal lives and manage our own affairs as individuals? Let me give an example of a complete person. Who is a complete person? In life there is what is called a ‘Wheel of Life’ and there are six wheels of life.

(i) the financial and career

(ii) family and home

(iii) spiritual and ethical

(iv) social and cultural;

(v) physical and health; and

(vi) mental and education.

Therefore, for any person to be called complete, they must know how to balance life. If you are socially active and lack education you are not a complete person. If you are financially and career sound, but spiritually and ethically poor, you are not a complete person. That balance is exactly what a noble and competent Government should take into consideration? Therefore, colleagues do not tell your colleagues to do what you cannot do. To run a complete Government, you should not just look at one aspect.

There is the question of health and everybody agrees that health is important. If you listened to the election campaigns, there was one political party that went on radio and the topic for discussion was health. When asked what they had to say about health, they said for them, as a party, health was number one because people could not work without it. Two days later the same party was called to discuss education and said, ‘For us, education is number one.’ Three days later, there was a topic on agriculture and they said that, ‘For us, agriculture is number one,’ and they went on and on. After all, if you think about it, they were not far from the kingdom of God, but we are talking about priorities and ranking.

Even traditionally, hon. Colleagues, if you look at the way we build houses, be it in the village or town, a house can be termed as a four corner or four walls. How do you build a house? Hon. Mooya who is an engineer will tell you. You cannot build a house and complete it in one corner up to the roof level. No!

Laughter{mospagebreak}

Mr Mbulakulima: You do not! You raise it up to a certain stage and leave it there and you go to the other corner and raise it up. When you say it is at window level, it is at window level across the board. Equally, when you are running a Government, you look at issues of health, agriculture, education, defence and security and food.

Hon. Members, when Hon. Mulasikwanda was debating on this Floor, I learnt one thing. Yes, we can talk about the Constitution and we would like to allocate all the resources to it, but I thought she meant well. If you look at the way the rains have damaged our infrastructure, especially the road infrastructure, I want the advocates of the Constitution to come out and hear what they are going to say about it. If you have to put right what has been damaged, we need, at least, half of the Budget to be allocated to that. However, we agree that is not the way we are going to run the economy and the nation. There is need for us to have a balancing act as we run the Government.

This Government means well. We have not refused to enact a new Constitution. We have said that we are going to do it. My fellow Member of Parliament for Siavonga gave a Tonga proverb. In Northern Province we also have a saying that, ‘Ukuboko bapota ukumine.’ In Lusaka Province, they say, ‘You cannot kick the door that is open.’ The ‘wisemen’ from the Eastern Province will say, ‘Why rape a lady who is actually willing.’

Laughter
Mr Mbulakulima: This Government is willing.

Laughter

Mr Mbulakulima: You can see, fellow hon. Members, this Government means well. All we have to do is to balance the act. If we put all the resources into one sector, the rest of the sectors will suffer. There is hope because most of you know that this President is on record as having said that he wants to leave a good Constitution for the people of Zambia. Most of you know him. I know that as human beings the desire and the anxiety is that we must have it now. However, having it now must be reconciled with the facts that I have mentioned. All of you agree that the man means well. He is not even anywhere near a master dribbler. He will definitely honour this obligation.

Mr Chairperson, I thought I should mention that this Government means well and is not going to divert from its original plan. As I said, I could read from the hon. Member of Parliament for Siavonga that he means well although others might not mean well. At the end of the day, before the next elections which we are all concerned about, there will be a new Constitution in place.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC (Chasefu): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to rise and support the Vote. In so doing, I would like to urge the hon. Minister of Justice to attend to certain teething problems which his ministry has been facing for a long time now.

Sir, the first problems relates to manpower. I know, as a mater of fact, that if one talks about the Director of Public Prosecutions’ Chambers, all certificates of committal for summary trials are now issued from Lusaka. This means that the Copperbelt Office is not manned. It means that the office in Kitwe is not manned. If we are to have a speedy dispensation of justice, I submit that it is absolutely important that the Director of Public Prosecutions is adequately manned.

Mr Chairperson, I must also not lose sight of the fact that even at the higher bench, the Judiciary, we also have a problem. We know that cases take long to dispose of. The main reason for this is the shortage of manpower. Why can you not improve the conditions of service for Judges so that you attract young men to the bench? We know that certain cases take as long as seven years to dispose of much to the detriment of the litigants.

Sir, are we, really, interested in the speedy dispensation of justice? If we are, why is the improvement of conditions of service for Judges, for example, normally looked at as and when election petitions are pending in the High Court? If we are interested in the speedy dispensation of justice, why is it that we are always quick to improve the conditions of service for Judges at the expense of magistrates? Why is it that magistrates must always have salary increments only after going on strike? Do you not realise that the magistrates play a major role in the dispensation of justice? After all, they handle more cases than the higher bench. These problems have been with us, but we have no will to solve them.

Sir, with regard to local court justices, I hope this time around, money will be spent on training them. With great respect to them, I think, the conduct of some of them can be likened to that of tyrants. When people appear before a local court justice, they are not treated with due respect. Some of the utterances of the local court justices leave much to be desired.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. K. B. Banda: Are you inspecting the way they dispense justice? I submit that some money must be channelled towards the training of local court justices. Those are offices of honour and the people holding those positions must behave and dispense justice as such.
Sir, I would like to commend the Ministry of Justice for having constructed the new subordinate courts building with the assistance of the Norwegian Government. However, many a time, when you go there, especially if you go there at 0900 hours, you find most of the courtrooms empty for most of the time. Yet, before that, we were crying about the shortage of courtroom. What is happening? Is there no administration to monitor the operations? I would urge my hard working learned brother to exert his efforts in that direction because it is a source of concern. Yesterday, we convinced the donors to come to our aid. No sooner had the donors come to our aid, than we saw no need for these courtrooms.

Laughter

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC: Sir, the High Court Building in Lusaka is a disgrace. Have the air conditioners in those courtrooms ever worked or was the High Court Building supplied with defective air conditioners. What are we doing? We must maintain the standards. If you go to those courtrooms now, you will only find, perhaps, one florescent tube working. The courtroom is virtually dark. Do we have an administration there? If we do, what are they doing to address these problems? I am, again, urging my learned friend, because I know he will exert his influence, to ensure that these problems are attended to.

Mr Chairperson, the Department of Legal Aid is a key institution in our justice delivery system. How many motor vehicles does the Directorate of Legal Aid have? Maybe less than five. Gone are the days when some of us were at Legal Aid and we only used to have one land rover, which was being used by an expatriate Director of Legal Aid. We used to walk from Electra House to the high court with files and wigs in our hands. Times have now changed. If you want a lawyer to be committed to work, make sure they are given tools. You do not expect a lawyer at this time and age to walk.

Sir, I therefore, urge the ministry to ensure that the lawyers at the Legal Aid Department are well looked after. The same goes to the forgotten department of Administrator General and Official Receiver. The money allocated to that department is insufficient. What are you doing to ensure that this important department is catered for nicely? I submit that it is a forgotten department because it has been like that for a long time, and yet the ministry is sponsoring officers to the University of Zambia and Zambia Institute of Advanced Legal Education. Why are we failing to assign officers to man this important department?

Mr Chairperson, I would like to commend the hon. Minister of Justice for the efforts he has made to ensure that salaries for lawyers in the Ministry of Justice and the Judiciary are increased. However, these increases are nothing to talk home about. These lawyers need more and more increases. A lawyer must live and work like a lawyer. I know, during your tenure of office, you can confidently and proudly brag that you succeeded in improving their conditions of service, but a lot more needs to be done.

Sir, I would also like to talk about the administration of the Judiciary. The Judiciary is now autonomous and, as such, we must ensure that we assist it with capable administrators to ensure that it is run efficiently. If hon. Members want to prove what I am saying, they should drive to the High Court. They will be greeted by driveways that have potholes, and yet that is the seat of the Judiciary. Are we saying that we cannot afford to mend those potholes? The toilets at the Supreme Court and High Court buildings have not worked for ages now. Is this evidence of lack of money or lack of commitment to duty?

Sir, I note, with satisfaction, that money has been allocated and I hope it will be used for that purpose. Those of us who have been lawyers for a long time know that there used to be robe rooms at the High Court buildings but now there is nothing like that. You have to use your car as a robe room. What is happening to the Judiciary and where is our pride? I am happy to note that money has been allocated and I hope that something will be done to ensure that the standards are brought back to acceptable levels.

Sir, I would be failing in my duties if I did not mention a point which was raised by my brother, Hon. Mwansa, about the Trust Account. This is an account where money from deceased estates is deposited. This money is administered by the Ministry of Justice. Surprisingly, this time around, Parliament has been requested to fund the Trust Account. I am concerned. What has happened to the money that was deposited in this account? Has the Trust Account suddenly developed a hole so that the money can disappear? If so, who made the hole that is responsible for the non-availability of funds in this account? The money in the Trust Account earns interest and it has also disappeared? This is a very serious point because it affects a lot of our people who have lost their parents and guardians. Money is put in this account to be administered by the Judiciary for the benefit of the dependants. Is it the duty of Parliament to fund an account which legally contains money from deceased persons?

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC: Sir, I will not answer that. Perhaps, my learned friend, able as he always is, will provide an explanation for that.

Mr Chairperson, let me come to the issue of court structures. Why is it that all the court structures in this country, starting from local courts, subordinate courts, high courts and supreme courts are dilapidated? Why is it that in this country, the only court that is in good condition is the so called Task Force Court which Zambian Judges cannot access? Only Justice Smith from the United Kingdom can access it? I urge the hon. Minister of Justice to ensure that this court is open to other Judges. You know as much as I do that our Judges do not have sufficient courtrooms. Why is this newly renovated courtroom the preserve of a Judge who will come to Zambia once in ten years to hear alleged plunder cases? I have said a lot and I know many of my friends want to say something.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Dr Chishimba (Kasama Central): Mr Chairperson, thank you for the opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Judiciary and the Ministry of Justice.

Sir, I will start with the constitution making process. Firstly, I would like to ask myself what a constitution is. I believe that hon. Members are fully aware that a constitution is a very important document. In Zambia, we have a written constitution. It is important that it creates the organs of Government; the Executive, the Legislature and the Judicature. It also spells out the relationship among these three organs of Government. It states the relationship, inter se, among these three organs of government. At the same time, it prescribes the relationship between the three arms of Government and the citizens.

Sir, therefore, we cannot continue to take the Constitution as a document which is not important. We have heard some people who debated earlier say that we need to spend money to deal with the floods and not a Constitution because it is not as important as food security. Whilst I agree with that, I must state that the Constitution will guarantee that, for instance, in the event of emergencies, the Government must act quickly. That is an example that I am trying to give.

Sir, the Constitution will clearly redefine and guarantee some of the rights and freedoms which our people must enjoy. Therefore, we cannot continue to underplay or underestimate the critical role that the Constitution plays in any given country.

Mr D. Mwila: Quality!

Dr Chishimba: Mr Chairperson, in my language, there is saying which goes, ‘mpyanago mpyana namabala.’

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishimba: This simply means that when you inherit or take over development, it does not matter who takes over. Whatever you find, you inherit and carry forward. It is based on individual succession. You continue from where that Government that you have taken over from left things. That is the culture which we must always cultivate. Therefore, the question of blaming someone must come to an end in Zambia. Instead, we should address issues as we find them.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishimba: The Constitution, not only in Zambia, but also in many other emergent states in Africa has not been respected. In the case of Zambia, in 1964 the people of Zambia did not popularly participate in the making of the Constitution of Zambia.

As you are aware, the Zambia Independence Act had the Constitution, which was created in the United Kingdom, as an appendix. What I am trying to say is that right from the beginning, our Constitution has not commanded the legitimacy which it so requires. This is because the people of Zambia take the Constitution as a mere document whose real existence is not more than the paper on which it exists because they did not popularly participate in its letigimisation or in owning it.

Sir, when we talk about ownership of the Constitution, we are talking about constitutional autochthony which means that we need to have a home-grown Constitution. When the UNIP Government appointed the Chona Constitution Review Commission of Inquiry in 1972, what the then Government and the President at that time used was the Inquiries Act. That Act is grounded in the laws provided for in this country by the colonialists. He appointed that commission of inquiry in order to try and come up with a Constitution which would satisfy the interests of the then ruling party.

Mr Chairperson, some of the people who were passionately fighting to ensure that the rights and freedoms of our people were guaranteed saw how the then Government ignored what was contained in the Constitution to try and prosecute innocent citizens.

For instance, we saw how Kapwepwe and other people like Nkumbula when they attempted to form a political party, because the Constitution clearly stated that Zambia was a multi-party democracy, being detained without trial. This was because of lack of respect for the Constitution because it was imposed on Zambians. Therefore, this is what we mean when we talk about the need to have a home-grown Constitution. Apart from that, some people were said to be mad when they were just pursuing their rights.

Mr D. Mwila: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishimba: Actually, there was a song which was sung at the time when UPP was formed that Kapwepwe was mad. The then, President sung a song that ‘Tutenge Kapwepwe ku Chainama’ because they took him as a mad person. Yet, someone was just pursuing his rights. This is a culture which we must extinguish. We must bring this propensity to an end in Africa. What did we see in 1973? Zambia became a One Party Participatory Democracy.

Sir, in 1991, the people of Zambia overwhelmingly ushered in the MMD Government into power. The MMD Government pledged, inter alia, to enact a Constitution which would be home-grown, would command the legitimacy so required and widen the locus standi that is the grounds upon which people can pursue or claim their rights authoritatively.

Sir, what did we see happen? The MMD Government used the same Inquiries Act which Dr Kaunda had used to make some alterations to the Constitution and appointed The Mwanakatwe Constitution Review Commission. This commission went round to collect evidence and more than 1,000 petitioners submitted to that constitution review commission. After that, recommendations were made and among them, were that the Constitution should be adopted by a Constituent Assembly. The significance of the Constituent Assembly is that whilst the Government pleads parliamentary sovereignty, as we saw in that particular case, we must remember that the ultimate power rests with the people.

Mr D. Mwila: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishimba: It is the people’s Constitution. It is not the Constitution of the few who are in Government. In Africa, we have seen the abuse of parliamentary majoritarianism. They take advantage of their Parliamentary majorities in order to make laws which suit their interests. We have also seen the culture where every leader who takes over is in a hurry upon a tabulation of exigencies to appoint a political courtry to sit down and come up with a law which will protect these leaders. They enact laws which are there to protect their own interests.

Sir, every regime is of a fleeting nature. So, they come up with Constitutions or laws to protect their temporary interests at the expense of what the people of Zambia say and how they want to prescribe the manner in which this nation is to be governed.

Mr D. Mwila: Quality!

Dr Chishimba: Therefore, what we have is constitutional inflation. What I mean by that is that year in year out whenever there is a change in Government, we must have a new Constitution.

Sir, in thirty-two years as at 1996, Zambia had her fourth Constitution. This is ‘ukubuta’. This is anarchy. In other words, it is a circus.
Mr D. Mwila: Quality!

Dr Chishimba: Mr Chairperson, we must be serious. Therefore, when we have an opportunity, let us try to give the people of Zambia a Constitution into whose making they are going to popularly participate.

Sir, the Mwanakatwe Commission recommended the adoption of the Constitution by Constituent Assembly. What we saw happening was that the recommendations which were made by the Mwanakatwe Commission of Inquiry which aimed at promoting people sitting as a sovereign people were not adopted by the Government. The Government produced a White Paper in which those recommendations that were pleasing to it were put. It gave its own position and ignored what the people of Zambia had popularly stated. Therefore, the Constitution which was enacted in 1996 is still the same as the 1991 which is the same as the 1973 or 1964 constitutions of Zambia.

Mr Chairperson, I say so because Part III and Article 79 Sub-article (3) of the Constitution were not tampered. The reason for this is that any attempt to alter these two parts, which I have talked about, requires the people of Zambia who are eligible to vote to have a say by putting the whole process to a referendum. Therefore, the Government tried to avoid that. That is not right.

Sir, today, we have another commission which was appointed when the New Deal took over, the Mung’omba Constitution Review Commission. If you look at the recommendations which they made, they also recommended that the Constitution be adopted by a Constituent Assembly. The Government has indicated willingness to have it adopted by a Constituent Assembly. However, what is worrying is that there is some sluggishness. The Government does not appear to be in a hurry to give the people of Zambia the Constitution which they need. We need to put a break to the level of continuity which is associated with the Constitution in Zambia.

Zambia is an independent country. Our fathers and mothers who fought for the independence of this country wanted us to govern ourselves according to the way we so wanted.

In this particular case, they wanted us to put to an end anything which would remind us of the atrocities which were committed by the colonialists. Therefore, this nation’s pride and sovereignty will only be guaranteed if the people of Zambia sit autonomously, as an independent people who are  free to determine how they want to be governed.

My brother, Hon. Syakalima, put it very clearly that who knew that President Mwanawasa would be adopted to become the President of the MMD. Nobody knew. There were people who were probably trying to manipulate others thinking that they would be appointed. Somebody else, a humble practicing lawyer was adopted. Today, Mwanawasa is President. Imagine what would have happened to Zambia if a person who was not sober was adopted. This is why I have always said that there is need to depersonalise issues that have to do with governance. There is no need for us to do that. When we are talking about the Constitution, we should not immediately start thinking about Mwanawasa. That is the mistake we are making. Let us look at institutions as they are …

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishimba: … and prescribe how we want to be governed as a nation. Of course, Parliament is not superior to the people of Zambia. Therefore, whatever excuses the Government gave, which include financial and logistical imperatives among others, cannot be bought. I say so because we have seen in this country huge expenditures being made on issues which are not a priority in this nation. However, when it comes to the Constitution, we want to make sure that we protect ourselves when we are in power and start giving excuses which are baseless and have no grounds.

Mr Chairperson, that is why I am vehemently submitting here today that there is need for us to put a break to the culture of blame and to learn to take responsibility and to preside over matters as they come. That is the type of leadership which is inspirational, which the people of Zambia are yearning for and which, indeed, will usher Zambia into a new order. A new era into which the people of Zambia will have confidence that whosoever …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! The hon. Member’s time has expired.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, thank you for according me the opportunity to debate the Vote pertaining to the Ministry of Justice and the Judiciary.
Mr Kakoma: Now, listen carefully!

Mr Magande: To what?

Mr Mwiimbu: Sir, first and foremost, I would like to clear the misconception in the minds of our colleagues on your right pertaining to the non-participation of the UPND in the Constitution Review Commission (CRC). The UPND, as a party, was never consulted. We were never invited to participate.

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: What happened was that a few individuals, in their individual capacities, were picked to serve on the Constitution Review Commission. That is the position and they decided to continue and they are sitting on that side.

Mr Shakafuswa: What is wrong with that?

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, the Constitution is the spirit of the nation. The Constitution is the grund norm. The Constitution is the supreme law of the land …

Mr Kakoma: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: … and we must be seen to be enacting a constitution that protects the interests of every Zambian and institution. Alas, there is no political will on the side of Government, currently, to enact a new constitution.

Of late, the constitution making process has been embroiled in clouds of doubt. The President, himself, at the Cathedral of the Holy Cross, doubted whether there would be a new constitution during his tenure of office. He even lamented that it may be possible that the president who will come in after him will not provide us with a new constitution. Even in this House, those who have debated from your right are doubting the need for a new constitution. They are saying that because there is a drought this year, we should not have a new constitution; the process must not start.

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: That was the argument of Hon. Mulasikwanda, a member of that Government. Even Hon. Mbulakulima was not very categorical in his debate.

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Mwiimbu: We must have the political will to ensure that there is a new constitution in this country.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hammer!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, all of us have been lamenting that development is not trickling down to our constituencies. We have been complaining that the discretion of ministers has made our constituencies fail to develop. This emanates from the fact that the current Constitution is defective. The people of this country require a constitution that is very clear and gives direction on how the resources of this country will be distributed equitably from the ward to the centre.

However, what is obtaining now is that we are relying on the whims of the people in authority. Even with regard to the budget that we are making, there are no sanctions if we find that money has not gone to the areas which were budgeted for. There are no sanctions because there are no provisions in the current Constitution empowering this House to sanction whoever abuses the resources of this country.

Mr Kakoma: Hear, hear!
Mr Mwiimbu: That is a tragedy! In other countries like Uganda, the Constitution provides that the centre, that is Central Government, will have a share of the budget and so will the provinces, districts and the village. Everyone in the country will have a share of the national cake. That is what the people of this country are demanding. The constitution we require has nothing to do with Chilanga …

Mr Magande: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Magande: Mr Chairperson, I rise on a very serious point of order. We are supposed to be discussing the Estimates of Expenditure for the Ministry of Justice and the Judiciary. The hon. Member on the Floor is trying to make proposals which should go into the Constitution Review Report, a report which has already been completed. I have looked at the financial recommendations and what he is talking about here is not there. Is he in order to remind us of the recommendations he should have made if he had participated? All the things he is saying are not in the report so how will we consider them? Is he in order?

The Deputy Chairperson: The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning has adequately debated his point of order, but I will ask the hon. Member on the Floor to take that into account as he debates.

You may continue.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hammer!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, I was amplifying the urgency for us to come up with a new Constitution. I was saying that the people are crying for a new Constitution because of the reasons I gave. We are not crying for a new Constitution because we want to have power sharing. The new Constitution we want has nothing to do with elections. The new Constitution, according to the people of Zambia, pertains to developmental issues that affect them directly and that was the point I was driving at.

Mr Chairperson, I know that the report of the Constitution Review Committee is not sacrosanct. The Constituent Assembly and Parliament will have powers to vary and make amendments and so the views of the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning are totally out of place.

Mr Chairperson, the lack of a new constitution in this country has caused tension. Let us not pretend that there is no tension in this country arising from the failure, by ourselves collectively, to provide a new constitution. We have an opportunity to provide a new constitution.

Mr Shakafuswa: In the urban areas.

Mr Mwiimbu: It is not just in the urban areas. The people of my constituency, Monze Central, are enlightened. They are the ones who sent me here to say that they require a new constitution so that they should not have to rely on the discretion of the people in power.

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, posterity will judge us harshly. We have been given a very rare opportunity to give the people of Zambia a good constitution. We do not need the Government roadmap that has been given to us. We must have consensus on the roadmap. The Constitution of the Republic of Zambia is not for the people on your right, but for all of us here and the nation. We must seek an amicable solution to the impasse that has been created. There is no need to have the Constituent Assembly in 2009. Why? Are we saying that the Constituent Assembly should not be part and parcel of the process from the beginning? If we have the will and we have noted the urgency, why not create the Constituent Assembly this year so that they can be part and parcel of the whole process and so that the process is inclusive. Why do we thrive in creating acrimony and tension in the country even over issues that are so obvious? For your information, some of the issues we are raising are for your sake. If there is no constitution and some other Government comes in place, 99 per cent of you will be in the gallows because of the current constitution.

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: Do not say that. It is happening even now. We are saying that we need a constitution that will be able to protect those in authority and to protect the decisions you have been making. You are lucky that we are giving you advice. We have no instruments of power ourselves. Some of you have abused your authority, but we think that we need a system that is able to protect those in authority so that you can exercise your powers with dignity and safety.

Mr Mbulakulima: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Chairperson, I stand on a very serious point of order. Is the hon. Member for Chimwemwe (Mr Nsanda) in order to promote vandalism in this House? He has destroyed the Chair.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! We will look at that administratively.

Will the hon. Member continue, please.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, coming to the issue of the Judiciary, I would like to urge my able colleague the hon. Minister of Justice to ensure that the Judiciary is assisted with all the resources required to implement the Judicature Act. I am happy to note that there is movement in that direction, but I hope that in future, maybe, in the budget next year, all the requirements necessary to ensure the autonomy of the Judiciary will be provided.

Mr Chairperson, I wish to bring to your attention the condition of local courts in my constituency in particular and in the whole country generally. In Monze Constituency, we have Ufwenuka Local Court, Mayaba Local Court and other local courts in Moomba like the Chona Local Court which have not been in use for more than ten years now due to the fact that the roofs were blown away and there are no doors whatsoever. The court sessions are being held under trees. I urgently appeal to the hon. Minister of Justice to ensure that some of the K1 billion which he is providing for in the Budget goes towards the rehabilitation of those local courts.

Mr Chairperson, I want to complain, through you, that the justice that is being dispensed by the local courts is, in most cases, incompatible with our aspirations and traditions. I will give you one example where I find it strange that the local courts have been awarding damages to litigants who have been suing for breach of contract to marry whereas it is known that that is not the law of this country. The law of this country does not recognise breach of contract to marry, but the local courts have been going ahead to do that. Some other strange things have happened in the local courts. A number of our people shudder to go to the local courts because there is no respect and dignity if you appear before a local court. I think it is high time that the hon. Minister of Legal Affairs, in consultation with other relevant authorities, provided education to local court justices. There is an urgent need to do that.

Mr Chairperson, I also wish to congratulate the hon. Minister of Justice for ensuring that, this year, the Legal Aid Board or Commission will commence operations and has been provided with resources. A number of our people are failing to get justice because they have been failing to acquire legal assistance. It is not cheap to acquire the services of a lawyer in this country. It is, therefore, noble and right that the Minister has proposed a budget line for the Legal Aid Board this year.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

The Minister of Lands (Mr Machila): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me an opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Votes for the Ministry of Justice and the Judiciary. Having had the privilege of working with the hon. and learned Minister of Justice, …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Machila: … I am, indeed, glad to be afforded this opportunity.

Mr Chairperson, the Ministry of Justice forms one of the wings of Government; the three wings being the Executive, Legislature and the Judiciary. The Ministry of Justice is the custodian of human rights. Human rights are about human lives and the Judiciary is the guardian of those rights. It is important that the Government is able to govern and what the public wants is for politicians to act and not argue.

Mr Chairperson, the Judiciary has been faced with many constraints all the time many of which have already been spoken about here by my learned senior counsel Chifumu Banda, Ernest Mwansa and Jack Mwiimbu. What we have done in this budget is to begin to take steps to alleviate the challenges that are being faced by the judiciary. We have cognisant of the fact that the national cake is small and, as much as possible, we do make efforts to address the challenges that are being faced by the budget.

Mr Chairperson, over the years, there has been a huge turn over in terms of the legal resources available, in particular the lawyers, in the Ministry of Justice. There has been a tendency for the Ministry of Justice to be a training ground and a transit point for lawyers to greener pastures in private practice. Efforts have been made by the Ministry of Justice, in particular, led by the learned Hon. George Kunda, SC, to address these challenges. Conditions have been improved and the ministry has been making strides to address the challenges that it has been facing in terms of keeping its personnel resource. After all, the retention of lawyers continues to be a challenge and many are needed in order to defend what, in many instances, are frivolous and fraudulent attempts to extort taxpayers’ money from the Government.

Mr Chairperson, provision has been made in the budget line this year, as has already been alluded to by the hon. Minister, for law revision to be undertaken. It is imperative that we amend and revise the laws that were last revised some ten years ago.

Mr Chairperson, on the Constitution, great attention and controversy has surrounded this process, but I would like to underline the fact that we cannot introduce a new Constitution unconstitutionally.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Machila: Mr Chairperson, the conditions of service for Judges and magistrates are an on going challenge. We have made the right steps to improve a lot in order to ensure that we retain them. It is a fact that in our jurisdiction, a person cannot aspire to or be appointed as a judge of a High Court unless that person is of proper means themselves so that they are not subjected to all kinds of pressures and vices as they dispense justice.

The increase in Judges on the bench, Mr Chairperson, shall help to decongest the prisons which has been an on going challenge that we have been facing as Government. I would like to note that in the budget this year, the total that has been allocated for the Judiciary amounts to K77.4 billion, a modest increase on the sum of K68.4 billion in 2006. It is interesting to note that the Legislature which all of us here are members of, has this year been allocated the sum of K121.3 billion. It is clear that we still have some strides to make, but the important thing is efforts are being made and the matter is being addressed.

Mr Chairperson, if I may deviate briefly back to the issue of the Constitution. As a Government, we have already put out our roadmap. It is interesting to note that, to date, there has been no forthcoming roadmap from any of the opposition parties never mind the other pressure groups that are outside this House.

Mr Chairperson, I take note of the fact that during my campaigns throughout the Kafue Constituency, I do not recall a single occasion when the Constitution was raised as an issue. Having said that, it does not diminish the fact that the issue is to be addressed, but the important thing to keep in mind is that, we are all aware of where we want to go. The important thing is how we are going to get there. We the ruling party have laid out our roadmap to show how we intend to get there. We will be interested to see the alternative avenues being made available to us.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Machila: Mr Chairperson, returning to the Judiciary, the training of magistrates has already been alluded to. It is critical and a very important exercise to be undertaken. It is true that magistrates dispense with the bulk of cases that come before our courts of law. It is imperative that not only do we provide offices from which they can deliver their services, but also that we accommodate them. The Government has noted and is aware of these concerns and we are addressing them. In time, we believe that we will be able to address them to the satisfaction and expectation of the public at large.

Mr Chairperson, it is important that we have cross party consensus on certain matters and divisions are not necessary. From the money that has been allocated to the Ministry of Justice and the Judiciary, I personally see no reason for controversy. I would like to implore the hon. Members of this House to support these Votes.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kunda: Mr Chairperson, I can see from the debate that my ministry is always very popular. I just want to clear a few misconceptions and misunderstanding. On the Constitution Review Process, it was suggested by Hon. Mwansa that we should start a new Constitution outside the provisions of the current Constitution. He said that we can assemble a gathering somewhere and map out a new Constitution for this country. I entirely disagree with that kind of proposal. Our Constitution is adequate. It has adequate provisions for bringing in a new Constitution and this is the position of Government. We shall follow what the law provides. We will not slide into anarchy or some kind of evolution because that is unnecessary. We shall follow the laws of the country to the letter.

Mr Mwansa: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Kunda: You have already debated.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised. However, when the hon. Minister is winding up, I think we should give him time to debate. Can you raise your point of order, please.

Mr Mwansa: Mr Chairperson, I am being accused by the hon. Minister of saying I want to introduce anarchy. Is he in order to start insinuating things I did not say when I simply said that we can create a law that creates a Constituent Assembly which can then sit to discuss the Constitution?

The Deputy Chairperson: Can the hon. Minister continue.

Laughter

Mr Kunda: Mr Chairperson, in my view, that is anarchy. We must follow the law. We must be led by the laws of the land. I still maintain that we should not slide into lawlessness. We should follow the Constitution. The Constitution is there. We followed the Constitution in 1996, as you ably debated, and even this time, we should follow it.

Sir, on the issue of magistrates’ conditions, indeed, we need to improve the conditions of service for magistrates. I must inform this august House that when we improved the non-practicing allowance for lawyers, lawyers from private practice began joining the Government. This was also extended to professional magistrates. However, there is need to improve conditions for the rest of the magistrates and the Government will progressively try to attend, within the available means, to improving these conditions.

With regard to local courts, we have a programme for improving local courts progressively over the years. As you can see from some of the amendments which have been circulated, it is our intention to allocate more resources to the rehabilitation and reconstruction of local courts.

It was also alleged on the Floor of this House that some salaries for judicial personnel have been reduced. That is far from the truth. We have not reduced any salaries. We cannot do that. If there is any budget reduction, nobody will have their salary reduced. However, in the process of operationalising the autonomy, certain proposals were made with regard to increases of salaries, which are not being implemented. We are still looking at the whole issue of the structure of salaries for the Judiciary. That explains why there is a difference in the Personal Emoluments which were referred to. There has been no reduction.

As regards the issue of the Trust Account, I am grateful that it was raised. What happened was that in 2000, before the New Deal Administration came into office, this money, in the sum of K2 billion, which was meant for beneficiaries in respect of deceased estates was in the Trust Account and was transferred from Standard Chartered Bank to Zambia National Commercial Bank (Zanaco). During the transfer, not all the money was accounted for. Documentation from the bank went missing. The Auditor-General moved in to audit the account, and as we await the outcome of the Auditor-General’s work and investigations, we feel that, as a Government, we must replenish the account so that the beneficiaries are attended to. In any case, assuming the money went missing, it is the responsibility of the Government because the beneficiaries would still come back to the Attorney-General for redress. We are taking this measure in the interest of the beneficiaries. I thought I should explain that.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

VOTE 18/01 ─ (Judiciary ─ Headquarters ─ K23,289,345,248).

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Sub-head 1, Programme 3, Activity 02 ─ Magistrate and Judges Association of Zambia ─ K165,000,000 and Activity 04 ─ Zambia Women Judges Association ─ K60,500,000. Why have these two activities been given so much money? Why are the members not paying for themselves? Why should we give associations money? We might as well give the Teachers Association some money.

Mr Kunda: Mr Chairperson, the provision for the magistrates and Judges Association is more or less related to professional development. In the legal fraternity, we have these associations and they are normally promoted by employers. Under Magistrate and Judges Association, the provision will be required to pay for workshops, seminars and subscriptions to international organisations for members of the Magistrates and Judges Association of Zambia. Under the Zambia Women Judges Association, the provision will be required to pay the secretariat to facilitate operations of the Zambia Women’s Judges Association.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr C K B Banda, SC: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Sub-head 1, Programme 2, Activity 04 ─ Administration of the Chief Justice Lodge ─ K371,000,000. Last year, K76 million was given, but this year, the figure has shot four times or even more to K371,000,000. What has accounted for this large increase and what is the Chief Justice Lodge?

Mr Kunda: Mr Chairperson, on Sub-head 1, Programme 2, Activity 04 ─ Administration of the Chief Justice Lodge ─ K371,000,000, this provision will be required to meet expenses related to the maintenance of the Chief Justice Lodge. The increase is due to the expected renovations to be carried out at the lodge this year.

Thank you, Sir.

Vote 18/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 18/05 ─ (Judiciary ─ Local Courts ─  K2,424,431,802).

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Magande): Mr Chairperson, I beg to move the following amendment:

Under 2 Court Operations Unit, by the insertion of Programme 8 : Rehabilitation of Court Infrastructure, Activity 01 Court Rehabilitation with an allocation of K1,000,000,000.

This is to cover the local courts in Luangwa, Chongwe and Kafue and the new courts in Chawama, Kanyama and Chilenje.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Sir, in keeping with the virtue that what is good for the goose must be good for the gander, I would like to quote the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning’s debate on Wednesday:

‘Mr Chairperson, I am not sure where this amount of money is coming from, but if you look at the total police allocation there is an additional K67 billion that is shown on page 82. If Hon. Lubinda is trying to move some figures within there, I have no objection, but our tradition, here, when discussing estimates, is not to increase figures without indicating where those amounts are coming from.’

He further said later when I raised another amendment:

‘Mr Chairperson, Hon. Lubinda has said exactly the procedure that we make amendments to Votes under discussion. So, can he tell under Vote 11 where he is getting the K300 million? He is telling me only make amendments either by subtraction or addition. He is adding K300 million. Can he tell us under the same Vote where he has found the K300 million. He should not say he will come to tell us when we come to a Vote which we are not discussing now. That is not procedural.’

What is good for the goose must be good for the gander.

The Deputy Chairperson: What is your question?

Mr Lubinda: I would like the hon. Minister to live by what he said. He has a K9 billion amendment increase to the Judiciary. Could he also indicate to the House where he is getting the K9 billion so that we make sure that he is not getting it from social service sectors. Could he indicate to us in accordance with his own words of Wednesday.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Magande: Mr Chairperson, Hon. Lubinda quotes me correctly. I indicated that I was not aware of where he was going to get that money. The Motion before the House is a Motion by the Minister of Finance and National Planning. I know where the amount that I propose today is coming from.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Magande: It is coming out of an allocation to which I will move an amendment as the mover of the Motion. Hon. Lubinda is not the mover of the Motion. What he should have done before bringing the amendment was to consult me. He did not consult me and that is why I was not aware where he was going to get that money.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, the Budget is a proposal by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning. In his Budget Speech, he told us how much he was intending to spend in this fiscal year. Once the Budget has been presented to this House, it ceases to be the property of the Minister of Finance and National Planning.

It is important, therefore, that even when he expects us to negotiate with him as though it is his own budget, when making such Motions himself, he must indicate to the House where he intends to get the money unless he is saying that he wants to increase the budget, which is going to be contrary to the amount he specified in his Budget Speech.

He too, must inform the House, at every stage, where he expects to make reductions. This is to protect this House and to prevent him from collecting money from sectors that hon. Members of the House might not be in agreement with. Now, he is asking us to agree on the basis of lack of knowledge simply because he is the Minister of Finance and National Planning. That is usurping the authority of this House.

I thank you, Sir.

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

Vote 18/05, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/10 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/11 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 18/12 – (Judiciary – Local Court – Copperbelt – K 3,603,742,396).

Mr Magande: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move the following amendment:

Under 1 Human Resources and Administration Unit, Programme: 8 Court Rehabilitation – (PRP), Activity 01 – Rehabilitation of Court Infrastructure, by the insertion of K1,000,000,000.

This will cover local courts in Chililabombwe, Kafubu, Luanshya and Munjilwe, Shibuchinga and new courts at Mpongwe and Chifunshi.

I thank you, Sir.

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

Vote 18/12, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/13 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/14 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 18/15 – (Judiciary – Local Court – Central Province – K1,905,649,588).

Mr Magande: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move the following amendment:

Under 2 Court Operations Unit, Programme 9: Rehabilitation of Court Infrastructure – (PRP), Activity 01 – Court Rehabilitation of Serenje and Mumbwa, by the deletion of K62,430,625 and the substitution therefor of K1,062,430,625.

This will cover new courts at Chisamba, Mumbwa, Serenje and Chibale.

I thank you, Sir.

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

Vote 18/15, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/17 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 18/18 – (Judiciary – Local Court – Northern Province – K3,701,183,217).

Mr Magande: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move the following amendment:

Under 1 Human Resources and Administration Unit, Programme: 9 Rehabilitation of Court Infrastructure – (PRP), Activity 01 – Rehabilitation of Local Courts, Kaputa, Chabula, Chikwanda, Chinsali, Kasama and Mpulungu Local Courts, by the insertion of K1,000,000,000.

This is to cover the courts at Mwanangwa, Mbala, Chipalo and the new courts at Luwingu, Nkole Mfumu and Kaputa.

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

Vote 18/18, as amended, ordered to stand part of Estimates.

Vote 18/19 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/20 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 18/21 – (Judiciary – Local Court – Southern Province – K3,233,608.324).

Mr Magande: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move the following amendment:

Under 1 Human Resources and Administration Unit, Programme: 8 Court Rehabilitation – (PRP), Activity 01 Rehabilitation and Construction of Court Buildings, by the insertion of K1,000,000,000.

This is to include new courts at Chongo, Kafue Gorge, Muwenzwa and Livingstone Upper.

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

Vote 18/21, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/22 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/23 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 18/24 – (Judiciary – Local Courts – Eastern Province – K3,331,620,319).

Mr Magande: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move the following amendment:

Under 1 Human Resources and Administration Unit, Programme: 9 Rehabilitation of Court Infrastructure – (PRP), Activity 01 – Rehabilitation of Local Courts at Mpezeni and Ndake, by the insertion of K1,000,000,000.

This is in order to include courts at Tembwe, Nanguya, Kalindawalo and new courts at Kabombo and Chinunda.

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

Vote 18/24, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/25 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
VOTE 18/26 - (Judiciary – Local Courts – Luapula Province – K2,902,821,893).

Mr Magande: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move the following amendment:

Under 1 Human Resources and Administration Unit, Programme: 11 Rehabilitation of Court Building – (PRP) Activity 01 Rehabilitation of Local Courts, by the insertion of K1,000,000,000.

This is in order to cover the courts at Kambwali, Bwalyamponda, Matipa, Lukwesa and Mbulu.

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

Vote 18/26, as amended, ordered to stand part of Estimates.

Vote 18/27 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 18/28 – Judiciary – Local Courts – North-Western Province – K3,558,677,874).

Mr Magande: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move the following amendment:

Under 2 – Court Operations Unit, Programme: 8 Rehabilitation of Court Infrastructure – (PRP), Activity 01 Court Rehabilitation of Ekelenge, Kasalya and Musele Local Courts, by the deletion of K125,125,000 and the substitution therefor of K1,125,125,000.

This is in order to include courts at Kapijimpanga, Lunga, Kanongesha, Kasalya and Lishimala and new courts at Mumbenji and Mufumbwe.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Sub-head 1, Programme 11, Activity 01 – Revenue Inspection and Tours – K32,500,000. When I look at the other provinces under local courts, I did not see a similar activity. I would like to find out why North-Western Province requires money for revenue inspection and what revenue they are inspecting.

Mr Kunda: Mr Chairperson, this activity is very important. We have to monitor revenue, especially how collection is being managed. You will find the same activity in Western Province. Therefore, it is not only for one province.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

Vote 18/28, as amended, ordered to stand part of Estimates.

Vote18/29 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/30 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 18/31 – (Judiciary – Local Court – West Province – K5,392,337,968).

Mr Magande: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move the following amendment:

Under 1 Human Resources and Administration Unit, Programme: 7, Rehabilitation of Court Building – (PRP), Activity 01 – Rehabilitation of Court Building, by the insertion of K1,000,000,000.

This is in order to cover the courts at Lukanda Wanyau, Mwandi, Sikombwe, Lubonda and Mulonga. I hope Hon. Lubinda has seen the activity ‘Inspection and Tours’ under this province.
I thank you, Sir.

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

Vote 18/31, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 31/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 31/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 31/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 31/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 31/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 20/04 – (Loans and Investments – Local Government and Housing – K436,262,069,476) and VOTE 29 – (Ministry of Local Government and Housing − K179,100,414,558).

The Deputy Chairperson: I wish to guide hon. Members that, again, we will take the two Heads together, that is Head 20/04 – Loans and Investments – Local Government and Housing and Head 29 – Ministry of Local Government and Housing.

The Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mrs Masebo): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to present the policy statement for my ministry on the 2007 Budget.

Mr Chairperson, the Ministry of Local Government and Housing falls under the Local Government and Decentralisation Sector which is multi-functional in nature as it performs delegated functions and responsibilities and manages the social, economic and political spheres of governance.

Mr Chairperson, the following are the functions of the Ministry of Local Government and Housing:

(i) co-ordination of Local Government Administration;

(ii) regulation and provision of social amenities, including housing;

(iii) regional and urban planning;

(iv) valuation of property;

(v) Chiefs’ Affairs and the House of Chiefs;

(vi) provision and regulation of water supply and sanitation;

(vii) provision of infrastructure and support services; and

(viii) co-ordination of the implementation of the National Decentralisation Policy.

Mr Chairperson, my ministry is also in charge of fire services, rates, registration of clubs, rent control, shopping hours, traditional beer, theatres and cinemas. In addition to the functions that I have already stated, my ministry is also in charge of the following statutory bodies and institutions:

(i) Chalimbana Local Government Training Institute in Chongwe;

(ii) Gwembe District Special Fund;

(iii) The National Housing Authority;

(iv) The National Fire Services Training School in Kabwe;

(v) The Local Authorities Superannuation Fund (LASF); and

(vi) the Seventy-two Local Authorities.

Mr Chairperson, the ministry is composed of nine departments that perform the various functions which I have just outlined. These are:

(i) The Human Resource and Administration Department;

(ii) Chalimbana Local Government Training Institute;

(iii) Local Government Administration;

(iv) Infrastructure and Support Services Department;

(v) Government Valuation Department;

(vi) House of Chiefs; and

(vii) The Decentralisation Secretariat.

Mr Chairperson, the Mission Statement of the Ministry of Local Government and Housing is as follows:

‘To promote democratic local governance and facilitate for the efficient and effective delivery of quality housing, infrastructure and social …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

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HOUSE RESUMED

[MADAM DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair)

(Progress reported)

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The House adjourned at 1256 hours until 1430 hours on Tuesday, 13th March, 2007.

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WRITTEN REPLY TO QUESTIONS

REOPENING OF ROAN HOSPITAL NURSING SCHOOL

355. Mr Kambwili (Roan) asked the Minister of Health:

(a) when Road Hospital Nursing School would be opened; and

(b) how many students would be enrolled initially.

The Minister of Health (Ms Cifire): Madam Speaker, the expected date of reopening Roan Antelope Nursing School is July, 2007.

The Nursing School has a capacity of forty to forty-five students per intake. The first intake will be enrolled nurses.

I thank you, Madam.

INTRODUCTION OF ANOTHER ZNBC TV CHANNEL

356. Mr Chitonge (Mwansabombwe) asked the Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services whether the ministry had plans to introduce another ZNBC TV Channel.

The Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services (Mr Mwaanga): Madam Speaker, the trend in the world, and even in the Southern African Region, is to have a multi-channel television platform to allow viewers choice and introduce a variety of programmes. This also allows public broadcaster organisations, like Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC), an opportunity to compete favourably with Multi-channel broadcasters who are on the increase.

In recognising this need, my ministry, in conjunction with ZNBC, has constituted a team to examine the feasibility of introducing a second television channel. The team is, among other things, tasked to consider the following:

(a) financing arrangement;

(b) technical requirements and the imperative of digitalizing; and

(c) programming and commercial issues.

I thank you, Madam.

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