DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE FIRST SESSION OF THE TENTH ASSEMBLY

Tuesday, 27th March, 2007

The House met 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

__________

QUESTIONS

NON-PERFORMANCE OF TAZARA TO FULL CAPACITY

377. Mr Kapeya (Mpika Central) asked the hon. Minister of Communications and Transport why TAZARA had not performed to full capacity during the past twenty years.

The Deputy Minister of Communications and Transport (Mr Mubika): Mr Speaker, Tazara railway line and its infrastructure was built in the early 1970s at a total cost of Rmb Yuan 988 million (equivalent to US$500 million at that time) from an interest free loan obtained from the People’s Republic of China. In addition, Tazara has been receiving technical assistance in form of spare parts and railway materials from the People’s Republic of China. Technical assistance has accumulated to US$132 million. The loans are equally shared by the two Governments.

Sir, Tazara’s business performance has declined from a peak of 1.08 million metric tonnes in 1989 to an average of 600,000 metric tonnes per annum in recent years. On average, Tazara made losses of US$18 million per annum for three years up to 2003. In 2004, it made a loss of US$36 million.

Mr Speaker, from the above scenario, it is true that Tazara has not performed to full capacity in the past twenty years. The reasons for this weak performance are as follows:

(a) Inadequate working capital which has resulted in poor and deferred maintenance of rolling stock and infrastructure.

(b) Lack of capital investment.

(c) Competition with other transport routes and road haulers.

(d) Weak marketing strategy.

Sir, Tazara also has more workers than it requires at the current operating levels of 600,000 metric tonnes per annum. Tazara has about 3,400 workers whose wage bill is 66 per cent of its revenue, which leaves only 34 per cent for its operations. Some of the reasons for the high number of employees are due to labour intensive technology, lack of funds for retrenchment and overlapping of functions due to the bi-national ownership of the company.

In addition, Tazara has many liabilities such as:

(i) Pension funds amounting to US$10.3 million as at June, 2004.

(ii) Statutory obligations amounting to US$25.5 million as at June, 2006.

(iii) Court litigations estimated at US$8.6 million as at June, 2004.

(iv) Trade creditors US$6.7 million as at June, 2006.

Further, as at June, 2006, the total retrenchment package for all employees was US$53.4 million.

Mr Speaker, with regard to a way forward to address this problem, the two governments of Tanzania and Zambia have requested the People’s Republic of China to cancel the US$500 million loan, which was used to construct the railway line after which the company will be open to the private sector for participation. This option was preferred because the two governments could not raise the US$161 million required to re-capitalise the company and another US$105.6 million to offset the liabilities.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kapeya: Mr Speaker, could the hon. Minister tell us when the Zambian Government last funded Tazara.

The Minister of Communications and Transport (Mr Daka): That is a very good question. The hon. Member will note that even in this year’s Budget, there is no allocation for Tazara. Railway lines all over the world, even in the United Kingdom, are supported by their governments even. For example, in Tanzania, the government has intervened in that area, but in our Yellow Book, we have not supported Tazara in this year’s Budget.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Hamir (Chitambo): Mr Speaker, may I know whether there are any plans to privatise Tazara due to the losses it is making.

Mr Daka: Mr Speaker, as regards privatisation of Tazara, we have learnt better lessons from privatisation. The infrastructure on railway lines is very serious that privatising Tazara would require a lot of time and study, but we are asking for public private partnership. We want the private sector to participate in Tazara. Tazara is not making gains compared to the road haulage. Today, Tanzania road haulage is transporting our copper from here to Dar-es-Salaam. This is a market phenomenon which the Government cannot intervene in. Liberalising the economy has affected Tazara.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out why the Government is not supporting Tazara considering that the hon. Minister appears to be very proud that there is no Vote for Tazara in this year’s Budget.

Mr Daka: Mr Speaker, I am not proud to say that there is no provision in this year’s Budget. I am mourning because we have not fully supported Tazara. In the United Kingdom British Railways has been partly privatised, but there is government intervention.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out what plans the hon. Minister has or how he expects Tazara to operate if the Government does not fund them.

Mr Daka: Mr Speaker, Tazara is not only owned by the Zambian Government. It is jointly owned. The two governments have to discuss and if the other government is not able, we cannot fund Tazara on our own. We are even failing to fund our own Zambia Railways.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Mr Speaker, according to the answer given by the ministry, TAZARA made losses of US$18 million in 2001, 2002 and 2003 and US$36 million in 2004. I do not know the losses for 2005 and 2006 are. Clearly, this does not look viable. The hon. Minister has said that the Government is not funding TAZARA, what is the position of Government on TAZARA because this thing can not continue at this rate?

Mr Daka: Mr Speaker, this is why I said we need private and public participation to assist TAZARA. Before, TAZARA had captive market when Government controlled what was coming from the mines. Now, the market is paralysed. This means that since transport is an integral part to any production, producers will choose to use the cheapest mode of transport.

Thank you, Sir.

_________________{mospagebreak}

BILLS

HOUSE IN COMMITTEE

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the Chair]

THE VALUE ADDED TAX (Amendment) BILL, 2007

Clauses 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 and 12 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Appendix agreed to.

First Schedule, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

SECOND SCHEDULE

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Magande): Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment to the second schedule in Appendix II, on pages 77 and 78 by the deletion of item(c) and the renumbering if items (d) and (e) as (c) and (d) respectively. 

Amendment agreed to. Second schedule amended accordingly.

 Second schedule, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Title agreed to.
_________

HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

The following Bill was reported to the House as having passed through Committee with amendment:

The Value Added Tax (Amendment) Bill, 2007

The Customs and Excise (Amendment) Bill, 2007

Third Reading on Wednesday, 28th March, 2007.

THIRD READING

The following Bill was read the third time and passed:

The Markets and Bus Stations Bill, 2007.

_________

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMITTEES in the
Chair]

ESTIMATES OF REVENUE AND EXPENDITURE (INCLUDING CAPITAL AND STATUTORY EXPENDITURE) FOR THE YEAR 1ST JANUARY, 2007 TO 31ST DECEMBER, 2007

VOTE 64/01 – (Ministry of Works and Supply – K260, 999,237,515)

(Consideration resumed)

The Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Simbao): Madam Chair, when the House adjourned on Friday, 23rd March, 2007, I ended with the topic of Public Private Partnership Policy (PPPs).

The Ministry has been spearheading the development of the Public Private Partnership Policy with other stakeholder institutions in line with the Government Policy of engaging the private sector to do business in infrastructure development and service delivery. The draft policy has since been submitted to policy analysts coordinating division for further guidance. The policy, once effected, will provide for the development of modern efficient services and value for taxpayers.

Madam Chair, the Public Private Partnership (PPP) is a cooperative venture between the public and the private institutions or individuals for the provision of infrastructure and other services built on expertise of each partner that best meets clearly defined public needs through their appropriate allocation of resources, risks and rewards. Some forms of PPPs are build operates and transfer build on concessions, build operate on those risks, management contract, service contracts and many more. Details of these forms of PPPs are available at the Ministry.

National Council for Construction

Madam Chair, the National Council for Construction (NCC) was established under Act No. 13 of 2003 to provide for the promotion and development of the construction industry in Zambia. Registration of contractor’s affiliation to the council of professional bodies or organisations whose members are engaged in a construction industry, regulation of the construction industry, the establishment and the construction school, training of persons engaged in construction or activities related to construction and provide for matters connected with or incidental to the foregoing.

Madam Chair, the construction school is charged with a responsibility of capacity building amongst contractors through provision of training. The school has been conducting training workshops in provinces in the following modules among others:

1. construction as a business;
2. tendering procedures;
3. work programming and productivities;
4. work quantities and measurements;
5. pricing; and
6. contract documentations.

It is envisaged that training would enhance the performance of contractors and subsequently have a multiplier effect on the economy as well as the well-being of the citizens. This year, the school engaged school leavers to train in road construction methods for a period of three months. Other courses envisaged are grader operator and building inspectors’ courses.

The Government Printing Department

Madam Chair, the Government Printing Department has the function of producing among other Government documents, production of annual reports, gazettes, finance, strong-room jobs, statutory instruments, Acts of Parliament and other related legislative forms and documents.

Last year the Government received donated state of the art equipment from the Chinese Government. These machines are capable of printing all kinds of jobs for the Government and the general public.

The ministry further procured state of the art equipment from Germany to strengthen the production capability of the department. The department raised revenue from services provided of about K1.7 billion. With the new equipment, the department will be expected to raise adequate tax revenue through economic rates competitive to other reputable printing companies far above the amounts indicated above.

It will, therefore, be expected that all jobs for Government ministries and departments are sent for printing to the Government Printing Department in line with Cabinet Circular No. 8 of 2006 with effect from 1st February, 2007.

Madam Chairperson, in conclusion, most of the failed programmes have been due to numerous projects that have seen the little available financial resources spread thinly.

Despite the sentiments expressed above that may seem negative, prospects for the construction sector are bright, considering the increased economic activities especially in the mining sector and the private housing initiative. Growth is, further, expected to be spurred by on-going infrastructural projects in the roads sub-sector and hospitality industry.

Further, public service partnerships are expected to stimulate growth in the sector. I would like to draw your attention to the Annual Works Plan for 2007 which has been reproduced as an extract in almost all our daily papers. This has been done to make it possible that this Annual Works Plan for 2007 can reach all our people where ever they are. It is important that hon. Members of Parliament get a copy from the daily papers where these extracts appeared.

It is also important that as we debate this Vote, hon. Members should reflect on the fact that the money that we will get is not sufficient to do all the projects that we have at once. Therefore, it is important that we prioritise the projects and see how we can tackle one project at a time. If we do it this way, I am very positive that we can make a difference by the year 2010.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Matongo (Pemba): Madam Chairperson, It is always a pleasure to debate reality and not fantasy or creations that cannot be made out of spate.

The Ministry of Works and Supply is one ministry that the Government can use, effectively, to benefit from the Highly Indebted Poor Countries Initiative (HIPC). Besides the Ministry of Education, Ministry of Health, my friend’s ministry …

Ms Namugala Nodded

Mr Matongo: … the Ministry of Community and Social, Services, Ministry of Works and Supply and other social sector ministries are the ones that should receive the prime cake of the debt we have been forgiven.

Madam Chairperson, It is, sufficiently, embarrassing to declare yourself poor. This country, through the Government, proudly declared this country poor. Now, they maybe poor, but this country is rich. The money arising from the debt forgiveness that has been given by the international community must go to social sectors. The ministries that should benefit are the Ministry of Education, Health, Works and Supply and Community and Social Services.

I do not like referring to China for good reason. However, in this case, I will. China’s development was from its own boot straps. India- you just have to read about the economic development of that country- very democratic. Its development was from its own boot straps. It is jobs such as road construction, weirs, bridges and opening new areas that they concentrated on to bring development to those countries.

I urge the Ministry of Finance and National Development that as they receive HIPC money - we know they do not come at once- please, look at developing weirs or bridges and roads in rural areas as well as urban areas, which I wonder whether there is a distinction between urban and rural roads. If you live in Lusaka, as I do and, you live in Pemba as I do …

Laughter

Mr Matongo: … the road infrastructure is as poor as it is in urban areas, except for the main roads here which I will avoid mentioning.

Mr Chairlady …

Laughter

Mr Matongo: Madam Chairlady …

Laughter

Mr Matongo: … I am speaking from the bottom of my heart, but forgive me.

Laughter

Mr Matongo: I am proving to be a male chauvinist. Please, I am not.

I would like to say that this ministry should now start looking at investing money in roads. At this point, I would like to say that, where I come from we say, ‘Utalubi mubwa’.

Hon. Members: Translate!

Mr Matongo: I will not translate that because they all know what it means.

The Chairperson: Order, you have to!

Mr Matongo: Alright then, it means: ‘it is only a dog which never says thank you.’ However, a dog says thank you because it wags its tail when the master gives it a bone. If you want to know about the big bone and small bone, you can ask the hon. Member for Solwezi Central (Mr Tetamashimba) …

Laughter

Mr Matongo: I will not go beyond that.

Laughter

Mr Tetamashimba: On a point of order, Madam.

Mr Matongo: In Pemba, we have had a road that has never been paid attention to.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Chairperson, I know that my colleagues on your left, especially, my brother has a lot of respect for what I do in the political arena. Is my brother in order to tell this House and the nation about a bone…

Laughter

Mr Tetamashimba: … without him specifying that Hon. Tetamashimba had brought up the bone issue when two Members of Parliament namely Hon. Bob Sichinga and Hon. Sakwiba Sikota were fighting to take over my appointment as Leader of the Opposition in this Parliament and I told them that if they do not agree as big guns they will be fighting for a bone and a small person will be the one to pick it. Is he in order not to say that and also to be confirmed by the former Chairman? I need a serious ruling.

Laughter

The Chairperson: A very long point of order. And the serious ruling is that Mr Matongo will consider that historical background in the United Party for National Development (UPND).  You may continue.

Laughter

Mr Matongo: Madam Chair, the road I am referring to is a ring road from Chisekesi on to Kosimagoye River to Chompa, Kanchomba Farm Institute on to Jembo Junction to Koro River down to Ndondi Junction and turns west to Muzoka and joins the Lusaka Livingstone Road.

That road was last done in 1963 when I was a proud student of form two. It is only being done now when I am a Member of Parliament and a much older person than the Minister. I congratulate you for that.

But that is too little and too late. We need roads from Kanchomba to Habanyuka and from Ndondi to Simutemambalo.

Laughter

Mr Matongo: We need a road from Maamba on Syamuleya Junction to Kasonde. Now this is where real people live and not commercial friends of the Minister. These are ordinary people that pray for you every day and night.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Matongo: I am very sure with your very able deputy who chooses smaller bones to bigger ones and your good intentions to develop rural areas, my request which has been put in detail about road infrastructure in Pemba Constituency, Choma District and Southern Province as a whole as primed by Choma Namwala Road the bottom road of which you have been singing about, will be worked on. I have no doubt you will do it. Please listen to us and help us help you to grow bigger and more efficient in the operations of your ministry.

I would like to state hon. Minister that while we have the Road Development Agency (RDA), it is not wrong that we should also have some smaller units under your direct supervision with the support of your good friend, the Minister of Finance and National Planning, to do simple jobs.

Madam, I find it extremely difficult that for every pothole that ought to be done outside city councils and municipal councils in rural areas there must be a contractor. And as fate would have it those contractors are not available in small and rural constituencies. You have to get them from Lusaka or Mazabuka. The cost of moving those people to rural areas is just horrendous to say the least and much more than building a new road. Would you please re-establish the roads camps so that smaller jobs could be dealt with?

I also want to appeal to my good friend, the Minister, that it is not a bad idea to re-establish Government Stores. I feel it is wrong that every towel you buy for Government institutions is not GRZ marked. I think people should be proud with Zambia. All these Government rest houses must have bed sheets and chairs marked Government Stores. Besides Minister, by creating jobs in Government Stores you will also be creating jobs through Highly Indebted Poor Countries Initiative (HIPC) and that is what HIPC is all about, creating jobs for the smaller people of our society economically.

I would like you to look at energising your buildings branch. These are things we will support. They support you and us by creating jobs. I like to believe you were fairly elected in your constituency. When you go back to say you want a small job done in Mbala and its done right there then you will  have done very well.

I want to state also that we are looking forward to supporting you in recreating those institutions of Government that saved money in the First Republic which maintained the schools where we went. Surely what is it that is wrong with re- establishing those things?

Liberalisation Madam Chair does not mean giving up on everything by Government. It simply means creating opportunities for Zambians to be in business. But how many Zambians can claim to be in real business? Reality must be faced and anybody who runs a Kantemba or runs a hotel in some small place is not in business but is suffering. To be in business is to be able to call the shorts like we do and say we want that done and you have your dividend at the end of the day.

How many Zambians today are big suppliers or contractors to your Ministry? I hope you are looking at this, Minister, very critically. Help Zambians develop in road and bridge construction as well as in supply of goods and services. Do not accept agents or fronts that can claim to support institutions that were oppressors of our people in South Africa recently. When there is a problem on the Kafue River it is them that are working on it. They are not doing it for free. Let us do it ourselves by entrusting Zambians and helping them to be major contractors.

To my friends in business, it is all nice and well to be in business as it is to be a Member of Parliament. However, it is a false start when you are in business to buy a Mercedes Benz X-class whose service per quarter is K6 million and your income is only a one off after Government has given you a small contract.

 It is also a false start to take the top of the range in Parliament. Take what is normal and what you will maintain beyond your time of being in Parliament and when you have retired like somebody opposite me.

To me, running a bar or a tea cart is not business. It is frustration. You must own shares in the breweries, African Explosives, the hotels and other major businesses. That is what I call business.

For now Minister, like I have stated from the social sector, to the business sector, you have the responsibility to create businessmen out of Zambians but ensuring that you give them contract rules and pay them in good time and demand a good job. That is what Government is all about. My message to my business colleagues is that no Government will want to give business to people outside this country if we can behave reasonably.

Madam Chairperson, finally, my group would like to assure the hon. Minister that we mean business. We are not here to talk about moving forward without moving our people in the rural areas.  We are here to move the Government, our people and ourselves forward. I therefore, wish you well and that you should create investment with the little money that you have. We will soon be disturbing the hon. Minister for him to improve on that.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Milupi (Luena): Madam Chairperson, first of all, I wish to give my appreciation to those that are given to manage the affairs of the Ministry of Works and Supply, more especially, the hon. Deputy Minister of Works and Supply who is very dynamic and also his hon. Minister of Works and Supply, who is a professional engineer. Therefore, we, in the fraternity, are happy that his management will ensure that things should be managed properly.

Madam Chairperson, most often, we relegate the Ministry of Works and Supply to roads and bridges, forgetting that it is more than that. In view of buildings, the hon. Minister has eloquently explained the Government Printers, purchasing function of Government and indeed Government stores. They also deal with a technical supervision of all engineering related construction works in all ministries. This is a heavy responsibility. Therefore, I stand and support you and also the Budget proposal which is rising from K125 billion to K261 billion.

Madam Chairperson, allow me to say that inspite of the so many other things that you do hon. Minister, the fact that we keep going back to roads is indicative of the nation’s desire to have meaningful development in terms of the road infrastructure in the country. A good road network is vital of the well being of any nation because it facilitates social interaction between the people, societies and communities. It also facilitates intra-societal trade. It is a necessary prerequisite to accelerated development, especially in rural areas.

Madam Chairperson, it is also necessary to unlock the vast economic potential that at the moment resides in rural areas. We will remain saying, ‘potential’ for a long time if the road infrastructure in rural areas is not developed.

Madam Chairperson, it is in rural areas that we have the highest potential to grow this economy. This can be done through agriculture and the agricultural related industries. It is through rural areas that we have the greatest potential to grow this economy through the exploitation in the mining field such as gold, diamond, copper, nickel and cobalt which are still found in rural areas. It is again in rural areas that we can grow our economy through the exploitation of tourism. In order to do this, it is necessary that we develop a proper road infrastructure within the rural communities. This will be necessary in order to alleviate the chronic poverty and thus enable this country achieve the Millennium Development Goals, the aims of the Fifth National Development Fund and also the Vision 2030.

Madam, the road infrastructure in rural areas is necessary to enable the nation even out the developmental parking that so far has been heavily tilted in favour of urban areas as opposed to rural areas. It is because of this that on the Floor of this House, we keep going back to a number of roads whose names have become households. There is the Mutanda/Chavuma Road, the famous bottom road, the Mongu/Kalabo Road, Kasama/Luwingu Road, Choma/Namwala Road, Lundazi/Chama Road and where my brother who is not in the House comes from (Dr Chituwo), known as the landless corner to Mumbwa.

Madam Chairperson, let me leave all that because they are necessary. I would like to urge the hon. Minister and his ministry to consider the development of these roads. Let me therefore, speak for the area where I come from (Western Province) because that is where I am elected.  The hon. Member who spoke earlier is right because there are no roads. I would like to say that Western Province has a unique challenge in as far as roads are concerned. As I have explained, roads through out the country are necessary. Western Province has a sandy terrain and it makes it absolutely necessary to have hard surfaced roads criss-crossing the entire province, if that province would stand a chance of catching up with other provinces that are galloping away from it in terms of development.

Madam Chairperson, because of the terrain in the province, almost all the places in the province are reachable only by use of four-wheel drive vehicles.

Hon. Opposition Member: Or boats!

Mr Milupi: Sir, these are expensive vehicles and they are also not environmentally friendly. We are talking about a place that is already poor. For example, you will find that from Kalabo to Mongu, it is a distance of about 80 km and it costs travelers about K70,000.00. This is exactly the same amount that would cost somebody traveling from Mongu to Lusaka, a distance of about 600 km. Both distances take about 6 hours.

Madam Chairperson, in order to make progress in the province in terms of development needs a number of roads. Even in the town centres of the province such as Mongu, Senanga and Lukulu, because of the sandy terrain again, many people who visit including those who are going there this weekend for the Kuomboka Ceremony will park their vehicles many metres away from their intended destinations because their two wheel drive vehicles will not be able to reach their destinations. Therefore, even in the towns, they require hard surfaced roads in order to make life more bearable. 

Madam Chairperson, with specific reference to the Mongu/Kalabo Road, which I will keep talking about until something is done about it, it is necessary for us or indeed the ministry to accept that the step chosen to construct this road is not only expensive but perhaps impossible. People of Kalabo District need to be connected to Mongu via the shortest possible route. Government should be at this stage swallow their pride and consider rerouting this particular road through Mongu, Limulunga, Libonda, Kalabo Stretch. Had that been done from the beginning, with the U$50 million that has been spent, we would indeed have the Mongu/Kalabo Road by now.

In addition, other roads within the province are Lukulu/Kaoma, Luampa/Litete/Kalongola via Kalabo and the Kaoma/Kasempa.

Madam Chairperson, as I stated earlier on, within my own constituency, there is no single stretch that can be called a road. Yet, we keep on saying that the potential for agriculture and the development of cattle industry is good road network. Therefore, I would like to add my voice by urging this ministry either now or in future to consider roads like Malala, Ndanda and Sikusi. Liuwuo/Nangoya Road is under construction, but poor construction methods are being used. I would therefore, urge the hon. Minister to ensure that this is done professionally. The Limulunga/Lusha Road and the Limulunga/Mushimambwe/Limulunga/ Lufumu Raod must be worked on.

In addition to roads, we must accept that other areas in this country are only reachable by water. Therefore, to have access to certain parts of my constituency and other parts of the province, canoes are critical to have access to certain parts of the country.

The construction of new canoes and maintenance of existing canoes must also be applied. In this particular instance, I would like speak about how to create a canoe from Likapaye area through the Nalwamba area to join the canoe at Limulunga.

In addition, we would like to see that the bridges that talk about every time are also considered. If we construct canoes, maintain them and construct roads within the province and elsewhere, then, we stand a better change to achieve all our developmental goals.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.{mospagebreak}

Mr Kanyanyamina (Kanchibiya): Madam Chairperson, I would like to thank you for giving me this chance to debate.

To begin with, I would like to appreciate the Executive for appointing the hon. Member who is an engineer to man the Ministry of Works and Supply.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear

Mr Kanyanyamina: Madam Chairperson, when we talk about development of any given country in this world, we are talking of electricity, good roads and good communication.

Madam Chairperson, I would like to talk about the Zambian situation starting from the City of Lusaka. From Kanchibiya, Mpika, I came to the city of Lusaka, where I was expecting that maybe, things here were much better. The reason why cities like Lusaka are heavily congested is because everybody thinks that it is bread, butter and good roads.

To my disappointment, I have seen that some roads especially, those leading to suburbs are in terrible condition such that even some roads in my districts are much better.

Laughter

Mr Kanyanyamina: Having said that, it does not disqualify me from wondering about how the Government is in the situation where they have engaged our District Commissioners to do the roads systems in our country. I have no doubt in the road agency, but the situation is that we have moved very fast as far as that change is concerned. We need transformation.

The previous speaker was talking about patching potholes. Right now, if you drive between Mpika and Serenje, you will notice that there are number of potholes of which we do not know to whom they belong. We do not know whether they belong to Ministry of Works and Supply or the RDA and who is supposed do the emergent work? Yet, lives are being claimed day in day out. Thereafter, we are busy suspending licences from drivers, bus operators and all transporters. We are forgetting that sometimes, as Government, we are responsible for such kinds of deaths by being so negligent because we are not maintaining our roads.

Hon. PF Member: Hear, hear! Hammer!

Mr Kanyanyamina: Madam Chairperson, I am speaking on behalf of Mpika people and Kanchibiya in particular, who are my bosses and responsible for my being in this Parliament.

Madam Chairperson, I will always talk about Chiundaponde Road. If it means dying for that road, I am ready to die. It is immoral for any Government to neglect thousands of people living in the Bangweulu Swamps of Chiundaponde area. By the way, Chiundaponde has put Zambia on the world map because it is the only place where you can view a Shoebill Stock and a Black Lechew. You will not see them anywhere else, they are just trans-located from my constituency of which I am proud.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kanyanyamina: Kindly, hon. Minister, I know that you are a very listening and passionate person. You should think about the thousands of people in that area and maintain the Chiundaponde Road which has never been worked on ever since any kind of MMD Government came into power - talk of the old age MMD and the New Deal MMD.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kanyanyamina: Madam Chairperson, I will fail in my duties if I do not appreciate the 20km of the 187km stretch, which you have done, though it is just a mockery. It is like when a child wants some gravy and then, you just give her/him water and salt and say, this is gravy.

Laughter

Mr Kanyanyamina: Madam Chairperson, we cannot continue living like this. God will punish us. Those people are even wondering if they are part of this country. They warned and told me that I was the last politician to there in the name of a Member of Parliament. If this road is not graded, then, they do not want to see any president…

Mr Kanyanyamina went off the microphone.

The Chairperson: Order! Use your microphone.

Laughter

Mr Kanyanyamina: They do not want to see any president or politician starting from a councillor up to the top. They even said that they will destroy National Registration Cards and thereafter, live like wild animals because this is what you want them to do

Laughter

Mr Kanyanyamina: Madam Chairperson, when I looked at these people, I was almost shedding tears. Instead, I said that I would definitely represent them effectively in Parliament and I would make sure that I speak to the listening Government. Therefore, if things fail, I will go and cry before…

Hon. PF Members: Cry now!

Mr Kanyanyamina: No! Not from here!

Laughter

Mr Kanyanyamina: I will go and cry before the President of this Country, Levy Patrick Mwanawasa SC, to see to it that the road to Chiundaponde is graded. I have so many roads in that area, but I think this road deserves priority because I have seen pregnant women delivering on the way and in my own van when I do not even have qualified personnel with me then. It is taboo.

While we are looking at situations like developing good road network and good communication, we should not think that teachers would love to go to such areas.  Which teacher can go and work in a place which is completely cut off?

If you want to go to Chiundaponde today, you will only need a chopper or a parachute then, you will have a hand shake with a person. You cannot go there by driving - not even a plane can land there.

 We are still wondering how to deliver the famous relief food which His Honour the Vice-President gave us because we cannot airlift it because there is no place to drop it. There are floods all over. Therefore, hon. Minister, we want that road to be graded urgently.

The second point is that we are tired and fed up of receiving contractors from Lusaka. We want contractors to come from within our province. Secondly, we want the contractors to come from within the district if we are talking of having money and developing our districts. If the Government releases money from the Treasury, it should be given to the contractors within the district. We can only have outsiders only when we are not able to do our own jobs. As I speak, we still have contractors from Kasama slashing grass in Mpika.

I was in my constituency two weeks ago. I still have the address, I can give it to you. We would like to know who contracted those people. Are we still going back to the same anarchy? I know that the President is very serious on this. This is tantamount to corruption. If they know that a minister is involved in such a contract, then, we can still receive unwanted contractors in our district. I still echo my sounds strongly that we do not want them.

I should have said that we restrain them. However, it is not good for a leader like me to agitate that, but what we are saying is that you should put a stop to sending contractors out. If possible, issue a press statement. These are some of the things you should say during press statements than marching or calling for march pasts which are outdated or old fashioned.

Hon. PF Members: Drink water!

Mr Kanyanyamina drank water.

Laughter

Hon. PF Members: Hammer, hammer!

Mr Kanyanyamina: So, when I talk about having contractors from outside, I am also talking of fighting HIV/AIDS. I know the Hon. Minister of Health is very happy, she is smiling.

Laughter

Mr Kanyanyamina: We are talking about the fight against HIV/AIDS. If you contract other people to do some works in a town that is foreign to them, these people do not move with their spouses. For instance, if they move with their wives, they will leave their children behind either boys or girls who are vulnerable to sexual abuse. Therefore, kindly employ locals who would be able to return home and take care of their families and have a service of any marital situation.

Laughter

Mr Kanyanyamina: By so doing, Hon. Minister …

Laughter

Mr Kanyanyamina: … together we are going to move.

Madam Chairperson, we need to put up an emergency fund for repairing small potholes, kindly note that. This is because a pot hole on the road cannot only kill me as a Member of Parliament, but it can kill the President of this country, if he has an opportunity to drive on the road or if he is not flying …

Laughter

Mr Kanyanyamina: … it would kill my Vice-President whom I love most …

Laughter

Mr Kanyanyamina: … it would kill everybody. It would kill even the Deputy Speaker because who has to go always to visit her constituency. For this reason, we need an emergency fund, particularly in Mpika District.

By the way, Northern Province is far away from the capital city. We have observed that some constituencies in certain provinces need to pay K3,000 to visit the cabinet minister’s office. However, we, in Northern Province need to have a separate budget which is roughly K2 million to visit the cabinet minister’s office. Therefore, the Permanent Secretary responsible for this situation should kindly allocate enough money to Northern Province. It does not mean that too far is too forgotten. We are pleading with you. Northern Province has been forgotten for too long.

I do not want to sound tribalistic, but we still have your brothers who are Tongas and are married there.

Hon. PF. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kanyanyamina: Everybody is welcome to Northern Province. We have plenty of land. I know Hon. Misapa might not echo this fact, but what we are saying is that the road from Kasama to Mporokoso is impassable. We would like to tour our province happily and invite you brothers and sisters to come and enjoy our good road network.

My appeal to you, Hon. Minister is that, kindly find urgent money to repair Chiundaponde road and the potholes.

With these few words, I thank you, Madam.

Mr I. Banda (Lumezi): Madam Chairperson, thank you for giving me a chance to contribute on the Vote for the Ministry of Works and Supply.

In the first place, I would like to thank the Minister of Finance and National Planning, together with his counterpart in the Ministry of Works and Supply for putting up this good budget.

However, allow me to talk about the Great East Road from Luangwa to Chipata. This road needs a lot of support from the Government.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr I. Banda: From Lusaka to Luangwa Bridge it is very smooth. Immediately it enters the Eastern Province, it becomes impassable. Therefore, we need support from the Government to repair this road. The people of Eastern Province need support from the Government so that all the roads are catered for.

Mr Mtonga: Zoona! Bauze!

Mr I. Banda: People in Eastern Province are agriculture oriented and therefore need to transport farm produce to Lusaka on a smooth road. Why should people in Eastern Province be subjected to a bad road?

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr I. Banda: The roads from Lusaka to Kasama, Northern Province or Livingstone or Western Province are well maintained.

Hon. Government Members: No!

Mr I. Banda: However, when you go to the east, you find that our roads are not well cared for.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr I. Banda: I would like to request this listening Government to …

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order! Order!

Mr I. Banda: …allocate a lot of money should be budgeted for in order to maintain our roads in Eastern Province.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr I. Banda: From Luangwa Bridge, we would like to see that our road is well maintained up to our headquarters Chipata. We need a better road from Chipata to Chadiza.

Mr Mulyata: A point of order.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mulyata: Madam Chairperson, I rise on a very a serious point of order. As a Government we take care of certain things which I think my colleague knows about very well. Is he in order to mislead this House and the nation at large that the road from Lusaka to Livingstone is done and yet the road that was done is from Lusaka to Zimba? Is he in order?

The Chairperson: The hon. Member on the Floor Mr I. Banda is actually in order to debate on what he knows.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: The Government has a right to respond and clarify.

Continue.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear! Long live the Chair!

Mr I. Banda: As I have always said, we need a better road from Chipata to Chadiza and it needs to be tarred from the Fifth National Development Fund. We need that road to be tarred because the people in that area contribute a lot to the GDP of this country.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr I. Banda: Now, let me talk about road that passes through Lumezi Constituency which is from Chipata to Lundazi. A lot of money has been spent on this road by patching the potholes. We do not want any more patching. What we want is resurfacing of the road completely.

Madam Chairperson, I would like to request the Minister of Works and Supply through you that we need a complete resurfacing of the road from Chipata to Lundazi.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr I. Banda: Why should we be subjected to a bad road when our district contributes a lot in agriculture? We have cotton, maize, groundnut and tobacco producing districts.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr I. Banda: We are a tobacco producing district and so, we need a good road because we contribute to the GDP of this nation.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr I. Banda:  We need better roads in all the districts. From Chipata to Lundazi, we need a complete resurfaced road.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr I. Banda: From about 2004, they have been patching the road nearly every year. By the time they patch these potholes this year, the following year, they become drum holes.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr I. Banda: We do not want this kind of maintenance. What we need is a long-term kind of activity. That road should be resurfaced so that it can take a longer period of time before it could start getting damaged.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr I. Banda: In my constituency, I have a number of roads, but let me commend the Minister of Works and Supply for giving us a road, which is under construction by the Chinese, from Lundazi to Mwanya.

What we need is good supervision in constructing that road, especially where bridges are concerned. What we want are good bridges that will not be washed away within a year.

Madam Chairperson, apart from this road, there are more than twenty feeder roads in my constituency. These roads have not been rehabilitated for the past 15 years. Most of them are now covered with bushes and trees. Now, it is even impossible to transport relief maize from Lundazi District to Chief Mwanya’s area. People are now suffering because the area has no proper road that can be used to ferry our relief maize. What is needed is proper rehabilitation of roads in my constituency. There are six chiefdoms in my area whose roads have never been rehabilitated for 20 years. I would like to ask the hon. Minister of Works and Supply to bear in mind that these chiefs need to be connected to the central district, which is the Boma.

Madam Chairperson, let me talk about the rehabilitation of our border posts. In my area, there is Lusinda Border Post. The office and staff houses at this border post need rehabilitation. A road also needs to be constructed from the boma to Lusinda because as we get into the marketing season, there are a lot of trucks ferrying cotton and tobacco from Lundazi Boma to Lilongwe. What we need is a good connection. It is only about 35 to 40 kilometres from Lundazi Boma to reach the tarred road in Malawi. The trucks can be using that route because it is a short cut to Lilongwe, where they take the tobacco. Right now, the trucks use the Lundazi/Chipata Road through Mwami Border, which is very long. I would like the hon. Minister of Works and Supply to take note of this so that we make shorter distances and reserve time in transporting farm products to Lilongwe.    

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: Thank you very much, Madam Chairperson. I agree with Hon. Muntanga that my hon. Minister will wind up, but I need to support him and make some comments on the concerns that my colleagues have raised.

First and foremost, I must say that our ministry is not going to do its best without the participation of hon. Members of Parliament in this House. Whatever we do in their constituencies, it is themselves who were elected by the people and who should actually be in the forefront to tell us what we need to do. What hon. Members should know is that His Excellency the President wrote a letter to each one of us in Government telling us that we need to inform you on all projects in your areas. As a ministry, we believe that if we are going to do projects in your constituencies and you are participating in the decision making of these projects, the blame that we have been having will be a thing of the past.

Madam Chairperson, I want to state here that we now have the Road Development Agency (RDA). We thank them for the seminar that was held for hon. Members of Parliament. For the first time, hon. Members heard what the ministry intends to do. I just hope my fellow hon. Members have had time to read the paper cut outs that were in The Post, Times of Zambia and also the Zambia Daily Mail to see what we are going to do in this country for the rest of this year. That way, hon. Members will be availed all the information.

Madam Chairperson, I also want to say that the RDA has senior engineers in all the nine provinces. The senior engineers have been appointed to co-ordinate the activities between RDA and the councils. The councils have been appointed as road authorities. By that appointment, you need to have certain qualified staff within your councils. I appeal to you hon. Members, especially from rural areas, that as RDA goes ahead to employ members of staff, there will be some members of staff remaining under the Roads Department. Each of the councils should take advantage and get some of the superintendents that are not going to be taken on board by Government or RDA and employ them to help us in terms of our co-ordination with RDA senior engineers in the provinces.

Madam Chairperson, I want to also state that I agree with Members of Parliament that have stated that we may not be doing the best and obviously the reason is that we have always shared the little resources in all the areas. If you check in the budget, for example, you find that we have given Mongu/Senanga Road K22 billion and Senanga/Muteta/Nangweshi Road about K18 billion.  We are giving K5 billion to the Bottom Road for the first time. You will also notice that even the road authorities in the councils in terms of road works we have given about K12.7 billion. Even for enforcement of road authorities, we have put aside K7.3 billion. What is going to be happen now, is that you may find in the annual work plan, under urban roads, the councils will be able to choose the roads they to be worked on in our areas. That is the only way RDA is going to participate.

In this year’s Budget, Kasama/Luwingu Road has been allocated K20 billion, Kashikishi/Luchinda has been given K8 billion, Choma/Chitongo Road has been allocated  K18 billion, Mutanda/Kabompo Road has been given K20 billion and, of course, Lusaka/Chirundu Road has more than K83 billion. The best thing I think we need to do is to move forward. Hon. Members of Parliament should consider which provinces may not have a very good road infrastructure. As far as I am concerned, the road from Kashikishi to Luchinda is one of the roads which need to be attended to. The Kasama/Luwingu Road is another road that needs attention. Of course, the Mutanda/Kabompo Road, popularly known as Mutanda/Chavuma Road, also requires attention just like the Choma/Chitongo/Monze Road.      

Those are the roads we need to attend to, but we can only attend to those roads if the hon. Members can be considerate so that, for example, as you have been saying from 2008 to 1010, it is possible if we are to concentrate on working on those roads to have a road in every province. But if we feel that there must be something in my area or province for me to be seen as a Member who has done something, I think that is very difficult for the Government and ourselves to attend to.

Hon. Matongo talked about equipment, I want to say that the Government and the President of this country is very keen to have equipment for this Ministry and you will see in our budget that there is about K55 billion for that. Next month we might go and see where we can buy this equipment. The hon. Member also talked about contracts and I did connect it with what Hon. Kanyanyamina has stated. I agree with all the sentiments by my colleague the hon. Member for Luena (Mr Milupi) and I thank him for that.

Madam Chairperson, on the comments by Hon. Kanyanyamina who has just left the House …

Hon. PF Members: Are you winding up!

Mr Tetamashimba: I am not winding up.

Interruptions

Madam Chairperson: Order! Let the hon. Member on the Floor debate. Hon. Member, continue, please.

Mr Tetamashimba: You may wish to know that my job as hon. Deputy Minister is to comment on the points that have been raised in the House if I know the answer. You have never been in Government and so you cannot know that.

Laughter

Mr Tetamashimba: My comment on what Hon. Kanyanyamina said on the issue of roads that he would even go to meet the President and cry, my appeal to him is that he should not cry because President Mwanawasa knew that you were going to cry, but you will not cry if you read this document that we gave to all hon. Members. In this document, there is a provision for the first time of a K100 million for the road you were talking about. So the hon. Minister who comes from the same province with you knew that the people were crying for that road to be done and he had to make sure that the road was catered for in this year’s budget. So, you see, we see for everybody.

Madam Chairperson, coming to the issue of contractors, I do agree with you that we must have local contractors and these local contractors should have the support of hon. Members. Madam Chairperson, hon. Members should know who these good local contractors are and it is you the hon. Members in whose constituencies we are going to ask these contractors to perform functions …

Madam Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Chairperson, when business was suspended, I was saying that we need to support local contractors and these must prove that they can do a good job.

Madam Chairperson, there are jobs like doing the Chirundu Road and hon. Members will agree with me that local contractors cannot do this work, it had to be done by the Chinese. Madam Chairperson, I agree with the sentiments by the hon. Member that we have to use our local contractors. We are on course on this issue.

Madam Chairperson, I also want to assure Hon. Banda from Eastern Province that a few weeks ago the hon. Minister of Works and Supply was announcing that there is a lot of money from the EU in the sum of over 60 Euros. This amount is for the rehabilitation of the Great East Road. You may also wish to know that there is some money allocated in the budget for the road from Chipata to Lundazi. So I advise the hon. Members to look in this document which the Ministry has produced and at a glance this will show you what will happen in all the areas of the country.

Madam Chairperson, if you look at the annual work plan by RDA you will see what will be done this year. We hope that our colleagues will take time to read this. They should also take this same document to their constituencies for people to know what is happening in their respective areas. We also promise that we will consult you when time comes for us to talk about the roads that have been mentioned in our document.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Kakoma (Zambezi West): Madam Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the debate on this Vote.

Madam Chairperson, I stand to oppose the Budget and in opposing I will give reasons. Madam Chairperson, although I have confidence in the Minister of Works and Supply who is an engineer, devoted Christian and someone with the ability to perform, I would like to say that the amount that has been allocated to this Ministry falls short of the expectations of the country.

Madam Chairperson, if the Government is not seen to be performing it is predominantly because of the poor performance of the Ministry of Works and Supply throughout the country.

Madam Chairperson, out in every district of this country people are complaining about roads and bridges. There was some misconception that development is only being taken to MMD strongholds and constituencies held by MMD Members of Parliament. This is not even true because many of the MMD Members of Parliament in the last House lost the election on the account of poor roads and bridges. Meaning that, the Government never delivered what they promised the people throughout the country. This is a very serious matter because the contribution of the road sector and generally, the construction sector is very important to an economy.

Madam Chairperson, you would recall that many economists in the world believe that the construction sector has one of the highest capabilities of creating employment. It has one of the highest linkages with other sectors of the economy and because of that, even after the Second World War, the countries in Europe which were devastated by that war relied on the construction industry and particularly, the road sector to have economical recovery and to recover from the recession of the 1930s. We are finding ourselves in a similar situation. Ordinarily, we are supposed to rely on the construction industry. In particular, the road sector to contribute to the economic recovery of this country. This is not happening.

I will give you two examples of why I am opposed to this Vote. In North-Western Province there is a famous road called the M Road or the Mutanda/Chavuma Road. I will keep on talking about it even if it becomes boring to some people. This road is very important because it links all the seven districts in North-Western Province, these are, Solwezi, Mwinilunga, Kasempa, Mufumbwe, Kabompo, Zambezi and Chavuma That is why we think it is important that this road must be tarred. This road has not been tarred since independence and it makes life very difficult for everybody in the province. In this year’s budget a small provision of K20 billion has been allocated for the tarring of the portion from Kasempa Turn Off to Kabompo. According to the explanation of the hon. Minister, this K20 billion at a rate of K1 to K1.2 billion per kilometre can only tar about 15Km.

Madam Chairperson, we are talking about a road of 600km from Mutanda to Chavuma. They have only tarred about 130Km of this portion. Meaning that, more than 400Km has not been tarred. The Government is only providing for the tarring of 15km in this year’s budget. It also borders on the integrity of the Government because the people of North-Western Province were promised even by the highest person in the land, His Excellency the President, Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC, last year that the Mutanda/Chavuma Road would be tarred. The then Vice-President, Hon. Lupando Mwape, went to Chavuma and promised the people at a public rally that this road would be completed before the end of 2007. In this Parliament, Hon. Bonshe, the Member of Parliament for Mufumbwe and Hon. Katuka asked when the road would be completed. The Government came to this House and told the nation that the road would be completed by November this year 2007.

Madam Chairperson, will K20 billion tar 15km of the remaining 400km and will this road be completed by the end of November 2007? This is a serious dent on the reputation of the Republican President who promised the people that this road would be tarred. It puts into question the reputation of the President and it puts into question the sincerity and honesty of this Government and trust that the President enjoys from the people of the province. During the last elections people trusted the President and gave him a vote so that he does this road. The people of North-Western also gave votes to a number of Members of Parliament to come to this Parliament on the MMD ticket. Some of them are very good people, like Hon. Bonshe who, the other week, asked me to join MMD because that is the only way I can come back to Parliament in 2011.

Laughter

Mr Kakoma: Madam Chairperson, without this road being done, I can assure you that all these good people, including Hon. Bonshe and Hon. Ministers will lose their seats in 2011. The only way they can survive in 2011 is to come and join the UPND.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kakoma: Then, they can easily blame the Government and get elected.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kakoma: Madam Chairperson, the Government does not mean well when they promise the people that this road will be tarred before the end of this year 2007. In fact, they have not even signed a contract for the stretch between Kabompo/Chavuma. How do you promise the people that this road is going to be completed and tarred when you have not even advertised the contract or signed the contract with the contractors? In fact, the Government went further to tell the people that another contractor will be found to start tarring the road from Chavuma up to Kasempa Turn Off. Meaning that, there will be two contractors on that road, but that has not happened. The only contractor that is there is not even being paid sufficiently for the works that have been done so far.

Madam Chairperson, the people of North-Western Province are tired of swallowing dust on that gravel road for more than 40 years after independence. Other people in the country travel comfortably in luxury buses and reach towns with well combed and good looking hair. With our province, the people on the Copperbelt at KMB know that this one has come from North-Western Province just by looking at your hair…

Laughter

Mr Kakoma: …because it is dusty. A lot of old people become victims of call boys because they know that coming from the rural area they can easily be pounced on. We want this Government to live up to its promises. It is not good having a Government that tells lies.

Madam Chairperson: Order! Withdraw the word lies.

Laughter

Mr Kakoma: Thank you, very much, Madam Chairperson. It is not good to have a government that is insincere and dishonest.

Laughter

Mr Kakoma: Madam Chairperson, the other promise which this Government made to the people of North-Western Province was that they are going to put a bridge on the Zambezi River. Letters have been written even from the President himself to assure the chiefs and the people

that the bridge on the Zambezi River would be constructed. The feasibility study was done at a cost of more than K1 billion. That feasibility study says that it is economically feasible to put a bridge on the Zambezi River. Alas, in the last year’s Budget, K1 billion was put in the Budget and expended on this feasibility study. This year, we are all shocked and surprised that nothing has been provided in the Budget for the construction of the bridge across the Zambezi River.

Madam Chairperson, this is very disheartening because for a long time, a lot of people have been caught by crocodiles while crossing the Zambezi River. A lot of people find it difficult to cross the Zambezi River, especially, when there is the Likumbi Lyamize Traditional Ceremony because traffic is heavy.

The Government loses a lot of money in carrying out activities on the Zambezi West Bank. For example, the Ministry of Health sometime back spent over K80 million per trip using an aeroplane to go and carry out a vaccination programme in Zambezi West Constituency because there are no bridges. If all those monies were spent on constructing the Zambezi River, we would save a lot of money, but this is not being done because some people in the Government are not serious.

Madam Chairperson, this bridge is also important because it is a link to a neighbouring country, which is Angola. Angolans, on their part because of the understanding that we are going to construct a bridge and tar the Mutanda Chavuma Road, they have already started tarring their own roads leading to the border. A lot of Zambians in Zambezi West Constituency have been employed in Angola to construct the bridges and roads leading to the Zambian border.

However, this Government is sitting idle and doing nothing about our own part of the agreement. We are talking about a bridge that is going to economically open the west bank for oil exploration, mining, farming and international trade. Why does it not make sense to this Government that it is important construct that bridge and the Mutanda Chavuma Road?

Madam Chairperson, because of those two broken promises, I do not think I should support this Budget because it is hollow and full of deception.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

Mr Mschili (Kabushi): Madam Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate this Vote on the Floor of the House.

I will begin by looking at the two documents, which this Government has come up with, the Fifth National Development Plan and the Vision 2030. From these two documents, what it is that this Government wants to achieve? When we look at the chapters, in this case, the ministries, provinces, Cabinet and State House, what does this Government want to achieve? Let us start from there.

With regard to Kabushi, let us look at the state of the roads. I am sure the people of Kabushi are asking this Government what they have done by not having any development in terms of roads in this constituency. Is it because it is held by the Opposition? In the past five years, all the routes used by minibuses in constituencies held by the MMD have been worked on, and yet, we have one very important road in Kabushi. This is the Mine/Masala/Round About/Lubuto Road. This road is in a bad state. Time and again, we have asked the Government. We have been promised that this road was going to be done. As I am standing here, I am saddened to report that in this year’s Budget, this road has not been provided for, and yet, it is very important. I think we deserve a good road just like all Zambians. All the roads in this constituency are in a bad state.

Madam Chairperson, I wish to talk about the selection of contractors. Why are there so many jobs which have been abandoned without completion? The quality is bad. I think all this is coming from the weakness of supervision. What is the Government doing about it, when we created a body called National Council for Construction? I thought this body was there to monitor and shortlist the people that are supposed to carry out these tenders. However, these things are not being done properly. It is causing great concern.

Madam, in the newly formulated Road Development Agency, we have a lot of qualified technical engineers. I hope and pray that with this, these people will supervise the works because they have come up with a very good approach, which we hope they are going to put into practice. For example, they are saying that they want to complete all the projects which they have started before they can embark on new projects. This is a good step in right direction, but we hope that they will keep to their word.

With regard the National Council for Construction and the Road Development Agency, I hope we will not legislate like we did on the Central Board of Health. It was this Government that created Central Board of Health. A few years later, the same Government dissolved it. These are some of the things which we say before you come up with something, you should really study it to see whether it is viable. My worry is whether we are going to continue with the Road Development Agency or not. These are some of the questions which we must ask ourselves because if we are going to do these exercises for the sake of experience, I am afraid, this country would lose a lot of money because it is very costly.

Madam Chairperson, in the Budget, there is a provision of Purchase of Equipment. This is a very good thing and I commend the hon. Minister for coming with this, but we must know what this equipment is? I am saying so because the Zambia National Service has this equipment, but what is it doing? I thought the Zambia National Service was supposed to be used for construction of roads in townships. However, the roads in the townships are very bad. I would like to make an earnest appeal that we should revamp the Zambia National Service while purchasing this equipment. We have a lot of equipment which is lying idle at Zambia National Service. Why should we go ahead to purchase more equipment? All this is being done because of lack of maintenance. Lack of maintenance has caused most of this equipment to be obsolete. I urge the Government to maintain this equipment by allocating more money. It is just like when you have a wife, you have to maintain her. From time to time, you must give her money to go to the saloon like my sister here. (Pointing to Hon. Siliya).

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mschili: You need to buy shoes for her to look nice. As we do this, let us look at allocating enough money in the budget for maintenance. It is very important that we maintain this equipment in order for it to last for a long time.

Madam Chairperson, I would also like to talk about the main roads. I think somebody has already talked about the main roads. When you look at Lusaka, it is congested. We must come up with three roads. If somebody is coming from Southern Province, especially the big trucks, they do not necessarily need to pass through Cairo Road. We should come up with ring roads so that once they reach Chilanga, they should branch off and connect somewhere near Chibombo and continue with their journey. I urge the hon. Minister to look into this issue and find a solution.

I also want to look at the clearing of vegetation. If you visit our neighbouring countries, you find that they maintain vegetation and clear rubbish, but it is unheard of in this country. People just throw rubbish and you will find heaps of rubbish along the roads. I urge the Government to come up with a programme to ensure that this exercise is done and in place.

Madam Chairperson, an amount of money has been allocated in the budget for control of Government vehicles. I think the money that has been set aside for this exercise is not doing the intended purpose. I am saying so because I have seen instances where a vehicle has been stopped by the so-called inspectors. When asked, the inspector will just say that he has been sent by his Permanent Secretary or Minister and he will just phone to confirm. This exercise is just academic. I think we should save this money and put it to better use than sending people to go on these trips just to be given instructions on the phone. I urge the Government to make sure that they look into this issue.

Finally, let me talk about the main road in Kabushi Constituency. This road is about 6 kilometres and is being used by most of the mini-buses. I urge the Government to work on this road before they can start working on other roads in the constituency.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Simbao: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

First of all, I would like to thank all the hon. Members that have contributed and supported this vote. I would also like to thank the many hon. Members I have seen who were indicating and those who did not indicate to speak. I know they did not because this is an issue that we thoroughly discussed in the seminar that we held for hon. Members. Most of the issues that are being discussed now were concluded. However, I am sure for the sake of clarity, most of the hon. Members decided to speak today.

I would like to start with Hon. Matongo on very few issues out of the many that he raised. I will start with the issue of Government Stores. I understand why he touched on Government Stores. We are in charge of Government hotels and lodges and I think he wants to see all the furniture stamped Government Stores, including the linen. However, Government Stores falls under another ministry which is the Ministry of Finance and National Planning. We are going to ensure that may be they assist us that all our hotels and lodges are stocked with Government furniture.

I would also like to talk about the Bottom Road.

Mr Ntundu: Hear, hear!

Mr Simbao: This is one of the most important roads in this country and it is so because it is written as a district road on our maps. Now, when you go there and see the district road, you will find that it does not actually exist. Like I said, it is either we remove it from our maps or we reconstruct this road. I think the best is to reconstruct this road. Hon. Members should know that K6 billion has been allocated for this road. This is just the beginning. There is no way the ministry can work on the 741 kilometres of this road in 1 year. It is not possible. At least, to start with, we will start working on this road this year from Chipepo to Sinazeze and we can pick up from there going towards the other end of the road.

Hon. Matongo spoke about units under the ministry. This issue is seriously being discussed. There is a committee that has been set up to look at the way we can come up with something similar to this bearing in mind that we have the Road Development Agency (RDA). We shall incorporate this unit under RDA, but they will be operating on a force account meaning that they will move when we tell them to move. They will not have to refer to anything. They have the equipment and they will be stationed in all the provinces. I must merge this with the contribution from Hon. Mschili that the equipment we are buying is to do just that. We are buying all the range of road construction equipment to be stationed in all the provinces at the provincial headquarters so that whoever is going to be responsible, be RDA or direct unit of Ministry of Works and Supply, they will move to any needy area immediately it is required. This equipment is very important that we can be in charge of this directly not under ZNS. Zambia National Service is a different unit married to the army and to use them in the manner that Hon. Mschili talked about is a lengthy bureaucracy which might not work as quickly as he thinks it is supposed to be operating. That is why he thinks it has failed. It is not that, but it is just that units like ZNS are not directly under the Government like the Ministry of Works and Supply. They fall under another ministry and to move them, you need to go through that ministry and if it is agreeable, they will move. They only move when the money that they need is given to them because they have to operate like a commercial unit.

Madam Chairperson, I am glad Hon. Matongo spoke about Government buildings. I am glad to report that starting this year, we are going to put up a plan to inspect all Government buildings and this has come about because most of our buildings have been neglected and are dilapidated. This is not supposed to be the case. We are coming up with an inspection list for all Government buildings. What this means is that we shall have to take account of all our buildings in this country and put up a plan where somebody can go and look at the defects once in a year and recommend what works should be done on these buildings.

Hon. Matongo also talked about the contractors. This is something that many Members of Parliament have talked about. I wish to say that soon, you will see a press statement even though it has already been reported on radio, that the National Council for Construction, NCC has trained prosecutors. These prosecutors will indict any contractor for shoddy works. Hence, all Zambians have been empowered and are requested to report substandard works so that the prosecutors can take legal action against these contractors. I therefore, ask for support from the Members of Parliament in correcting this anomaly. These are people that are given money they need to do works and end up doing bad works and pocketing 60 per cent of the money given.

Hon. Matongo talked about creating Zambian businessmen. As was reported to you last time, we are training young Grade 12 school leavers with certificates to be road contractors. I did speak at length that we are starting with Lusaka as a pilot project and depending on how it works, proceed to other provinces. This is a project that can assist most of the young people to grow into seasoned contractors with time. This means that these people will be given certain roads to work on and bring them to the standard required. These will either be tarred or good gravel roads and they will be required to maintain those roads on contract for about two to three years. This means that they will be in employment for that span of time before getting another contractor. As a result, most people will be engagement in road development.

Hon. Milupi talked about Western Province and how very little was happening there. I would like to correct that notion. I want to state that we have the Danish International Development Agency DANIDA, which is very interested in Western Province and will do most of the road works in order to open up that province. They are interested in the main roads as well as the feeder roads. This is after realizing that simply working on the main roads will not be of much help to anyone at all. This is because people in the province do not in fact live along the main roads but distances away from the main roads. Consequently, they need to bring their produce to the main roads and DANIDA is committed to opening up the province. I think that Hon. Milupi should be made aware of that situation.

Hon. Kanyanyamina talked a lot about the Chiunda-Ponde Road. It is true that this is a very important road. Even the former Member of Parliament for Kanchibiya talked a lot about it in the last term. This year, it has been allocated a little money just to see if progress can continue on the road. However in 2008, we hope to allocate more funds on the project as we recognise the importance of this road. It is not because the Government does not care that this road has not been done. Even last term, this road was not entirely done as the hon. Member acknowledged himself. Therefore, I would like to assure hon. Kanyanyamina that the Government is very concerned with that particular road in seeing that it is properly done.

Hon. Banda was probably not here when I was talking about Eastern Province. The European Union, EU has allocated 23 million Euros to the Great East Road. This amount will be able to do 70 kilometers of the road to the standard of the road from Lusaka to Nyimba. Almost certainly, 70 kilometers might go past Petauke but not reach Chipata. The EU has said because Great East Road is regional, the works must be able to reach the boarder with Malawi. They are hoping to mop up some funds within the region to see that works continue from the 70 kilometer approximation, to the boarder with Malawi. The Government has a lot of concern for this road and I am pleased that tarring will start this year. Hon. Banda also missed the fact that Badair is sponsoring the road from Chipata to Lundazi. As I speak, there is a feasibility study being carried out by a Zambian company and after completion, the study will be used by Badair to sponsor the resurfacing of the Chipata-Lundazi Road. Hon Banda made reference to other roads and I think that he was not right. The road from Lusaka to Zimba is admittedly very good. However, the one from Zimba to Livingstone is not as good and it must be done.

It is important for hon. Members of Parliament to realise that this is one Zambia and wherever works of this nature are carried out, the Government must be applauded. We should know that the works are being done in the provinces not because someone comes from that area. If we talk about the Great East Road, it should be worked on because it is a Zambian road. Equally, Zimba-Livingstone road is also important. The European Union has put in K15 billion for road works to be completed on that road.

Hon. Banda also talked about patching of roads; no one is interested in patching roads. Hon Members should understand that even a brand new road can develop a small pot-hole and that will have to be patched. You can not resurface the whole road for one small pot-hole, it is not possible. However, when the road becomes really bad with pot-holes, the best thing to do is to resurface the road otherwise it will be filled with patches.
The approach to this kind of repair of roads has changed. The roads are now being patched as well as resurfaced if there is not enough money for a complete resurfacing. You will notice in the upcoming road works that patches and pot-holes will not be visible because the entire length of a kilometer or more would have been resurfaced.

Hon Kakoma talked about the M8 and had much to say about the Government. I would like to mention that His Excellency the President and the then Vice-President, did not say anything to the contrary that made the Government look like they were not telling the truth. The President’s wish is get that road done. As everyone knows by now, that road is very important for our country. North Western Province has become important to this country and I must let Hon. Kakoma know that is among the few fortunate Zambians from such a significant province. When the President and Vice President say that they want the road done, they mean just that.

The problem lies with the designers and we, the people that make decisions in this House. I did explain that the direct funding from the Government on which these major roads are located was only K124 billion in the budget book. This means that, whatever road networks have to be done, can only be worth K124 billion. In this case, you can only liken it to 124 Kilometers because the analogy we use is that, it is K I billion per kilometer. Therefore, it is not the Presidents problem, but the way funds are allocated. Consequently, if all that money was used on that one road, only 124 kilometers could be done although that would be much better than what is obtaining the ground now. If the 124 kilometers could be done, to complete the road up to Kabompo, only another K100 billion would be needed and in two years we could reach Kabompo.

It is true that no feasibility studies have been done from Kabompo to Chavuma. This is because what was said was that we should first reach Kabompo before we see how we can go to Chavuma. I must say here that Zambezi is a very important place. You have also talked about your bridge, the bridge is under very serious consideration right now, the feasibility studies have been done and preliminary designs are being done using the 2006 funds and that is what is being used in 2007. In 2008 we might complete all the engineering design for that bridge so that we can easily start the construction of that bridge.

Hon. Mschili talked a lot about the National Council for Construction (NCCs) laws and the Road Development Agency (RDA), I must assure the hon. Member that first of all, we have just formed these organisation. They are just getting to start work now. These organisations will definitely change the way we do the construction and infrastructure in this country, and as such, they are very important organisations. However, we need to give them a little time. Already, both of them are moving, they have already done very recommendable works that they need to be encouraged.

Therefore, I must assure Hon. Mschili that he should have no apprehension about the two organisations because they are going to perform as expected.

About the sing roads, we have appointed all local councils as road authorities. Therefore, all hon. Members of Parliament must submit their needs to these local authorities because they are the ones who, in the end are going to plan for you what road will be done in the area. It will not be the Ministry of Works and Supply any more. All the local authorities have been appointed as Road Authorities. The good thing about this is that all of us belong to these local authorities. We all go into these councils and please when they call for a council meeting, find time to go and attend these council meetings. It is only in that meeting that you can submit your needs visa vie feeder roads.

Therefore, all ring roads, feeder roads and rural roads that we are discussing is work for local authorities.

In the next year’s Budget, 2008, we are not going to entertain anyone coming direct to the Ministry of Works and Supply to talk about feeder or rural roads. You have to pass through your local authorities.

I needed to make this very clear and I wanted to say more, but I have been told to cut short my debate.

Thank you, Maam.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear

Vote 64/ 01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 64/02 – (Ministry of Works and Supply - Buildings Department – K111, 767,846,472)

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Madam Chair, may I have clarification on page 526, Sub-head 2, Programme 7, Housing Units for former Heads of State, Activities 01, 02 and 03 – K7, 000,000,000. I understand that we should make provision for the First Republican President. There is also provision for the Second Republican President. I would like to find out why we are making provision for the Third Republican President because according to the law of the land, the President is supposed to be given a house two years after he leaves office. Now, I am wondering why we should make provision now contrary to the law when this is a Government of laws.

Mr Simbao: Madam, on Sub-head 2, Programme 7, Activities 01, 02 and 03 – K7, 000,000,000, actually I have the Act with me here. It is just that I have misplaced it. The hon. Member might not be correct in what he is saying. It is about a maximum of two years in which we must provide accommodation six months after he leaves office, but it is up to a maximum of two years and within two years we must provide accommodation.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. PF Members: So, why are we making a provision?

The Chairperson: Order!

Vote 64/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 64/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 64/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 64/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 85/01 – (Ministry of Lands – K24, 283,533,138)

The Minister of Lands (Mr Machila): Madam Chair, I am gratified to have this opportunity to address this august House on the programmes estimated in this year’s Budget for the Ministry of Lands under the theme ‘From Stability to Improved Service Delivery’.

Madam Chair, let me also thank the hon. Members who have spoken before me for contributing to the debate on this very important vote.

Madam Chair, from the general policy debate, I am happy to note that hon. Members are in recognition of the importance and responsibility that lies with our ministry. As hon. Members are aware, my ministry has been entrusted with a very important responsibility of looking after an important factor of production mainly land.

Madam Chairperson, land forms the very basis of human survival as most economic activities require land. It is for this reason that my ministry has set for itself a very clear vision and mission statement which is

“To efficiently, effectively and equitably deliver land, maintain up to date land records and provide land information in order to contribute to socio economic development for the benefit of the Zambian people and the country at large.”

Madam Chairperson, in line with the mission statement, the Ministry of Lands is mandated to perform the following portfolio functions:

- land policy formulation;

- land administration;

- control of non-urban and non-municipal unauthorised settlements;

- land surveys and mapping;

- registration of properties through the Lands and Deeds Registry;

- Revenue collection on behalf of Government through various charges and fees;

- provision of land for all purposes; and

- arbitration of land disputes through the Lands Tribunal.

The programmes which are in this years budget are, therefore, tailored towards fulfilling the objectives and programmes which the ministry has set to achieve through its mission statement.

Mr Machila Drunk some water.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mr Machila: In order to give a clear picture of how my ministry performed last year, it is appropriate that I present to this august House, a brief overview of the funding levels to my ministry in the last three years.

During the year 2004, this House approved a total of K21, 901,461,675 out of an approved a total amount of K8, 518,887,684 was released during that year.

In the year 2005, a total K21, 528,549,116 was voted by this august House. Against this approved amount, a total of K17, 697,436,320 was released to my ministry during the said year.

Last year, 2006, an amount of K18, 214,803,974 was approved. However, during the same year a supplementary budget of K2, 340,340,674 was released. This brought the total releases to the ministry to K20, 559,144,648.

Madam Chairperson, under the current budget my ministry has estimated a provisional figure of K24, 283,533,138. As hon. Members of this august House will observe, the increase is very modesty considering the number of programmes my ministry has to implement. We are, indeed, alive to the size of and pressures on the national cake.

I therefore, wish to implore all hon. Member of this august House to support the various votes estimated in this year’s budget for my ministry. I also wish to emphasise that the Ministry of Lands is one of the Government’s economic ministries which if supported could contribute to the enhancement of the revenues of the Government through the collection of various land related fees such as lease fees, ground rent, consent fees, surrender fees, registration fees, search fees, survey fees, diagram fees sketch plan fees and other fees.

Madam Chairperson, through the funding that was released to my ministry last year, my ministry was able to execute the following programmes:

1. Land Policy

Commence preparations for the National Land Policy Conference which should provide an operational framework on land administration and management. However, the National Land Policy Conference could not take place because the country was bracing itself for the holding of the tripartite elections. My ministry has, however, prepared a Draft Land Policy which will be taken to the National Conference some time this year.

2. Land advocacy

During the year 2006, my predecessor and other ministry officials undertook Land Advocacy Tours in seven of our nine provinces, with the exception of Western Province and Northern Provinces. The purpose of the advocacy programme was to sensitise traditional rulers, local authorities, the general public and various stakeholders on land allocation procedures.

In addition to these tours, my ministry widely published guidelines on land allocation, land surveying and land registration procedures. This programme is on-going and the remaining provinces will be covered this year.

3. Land identification and alienation.

Madam Chairperson, in order to avail land for residential, commercial, industrial and other uses, my ministry wrote to a number of councils requesting them to set aside land that can be used by the members of the public for such ventures. The response from the councils has been extremely positive and encouraging.

However, the major difficulties lies in the fact that most of the members of the public are looking for land in Lusaka and along the line of rail. Through this august House, I wish to appeal to all hon. Members of Parliament to inform our electorate that land in this country is in abundant and, therefore, titles can be acquired in any part of the country.

With regard to agricultural land, my ministry working together with the ministry of Agriculture and Cooperatives has identified farming blocks in all nine provinces. The farming blocks identified in each of the provinces are as follows:

FARM BLOCK PROVINCE AREA IN (HA)

Manshya  Northern 90,000
Solwezi North Western 147,750
Munte Central 62,000
Simango Southern 10,000
Luena Luapula 10,000
SADA Copperbelt 6,404
Mungu Lusaka 7,589
Mwase-Mphangwe Eastern 13,695
Kalumwange Western 13,000

Madam Chairperson, due to inadequate funding, most of our work in the farming blocks was concentrated in Nasanga, Central Province, Luena in Luapula Province, and Kalumangwe in Western Province.

The other aspect of my ministry is with regard to the land alienation which covered the identification of land to be used for the promotion of multi-facility economic zones for the investment promotion exercise.

In this respect, my ministry has identified parcels that have been reserved as land banks for possible investors. Guidelines are being put in place on how this land will be accessed under the land banks. I wish to echo a statement made by His Excellency the President at the Official Opening of the First Session of the Tenth National Assembly, and implore all our traditional rulers to release part of the land in their respective chiefdoms for investment.

4. Cadastral survey and mapping services.

Madam Chairperson, one of the priorities of my ministry during the year 2006 was the undertaking of the cadastral survey and mapping. My ministry was able to acquire new equipment such as Global Positioning Systems (GPS) and other pieces of equipment required by the Survey Department to open up more land for development. My ministry was also able to undertake the digitalisation of maps so that a database could be built for maps covering any part of the country. This programme is on-going.

5. Demarcation of international boundaries.

Madam Chairperson, from the available funding, my ministry was able to continue most of the work on the demarcation of the international boundaries especially the remaining part of the 604 kilo metres of the Zambia-Malawi boundaries. Preparatory works on the other boundaries such as Zambia and the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC), Zambia-Angola, and Zambia-Tanzania were also embarked on by my ministry.

6. Disbursement of the land development fund.

Madam Chairperson, the Land Development Fund is a fund which is meant to help councils to open up new areas for development through provision of services such as surveying, road, water, electricity and sanitation. I am happy to report that last year, my ministry disbursed a total of K8, 439,191,249 to nineteen councils throughout the country. We shall endeavour to do more this year.

 

7. Land Registration.

Madam Chairperson, I also wish to report that the process of registering land is an important aspect of my ministry’s responsibilities in order to ensure that people’s rights and interests are secured. In order to enhance the land registration process, my ministry has been addressing issues of improving the land information system and opening up the Ndola Regional Office in order to ensure that properties cannot only be registered in Lusaka but in Ndola as well in order to serve the Northern half of the country better.

8. Revenue Collection.

Madam Chair, one of the prime tasks of my ministry is revenue collection. I wish to report that my ministry has increased its efforts in revenue collection and a total of Eight Billion Nine Hundred and Fourteen Million, Five Hundred and Six Thousand, Four Hundred and Fourty Three Kwacha (K8, 914,506,443.00) was collected as compared to the previous year when a total of Six Billion, Two Hundred and Five Million, Eight Hundred and Eighty One Thousand, Three Hundred and Thirty Three Kwacha (K6, 205,881,333.00) was collected. I believe we are poised to improve on this figure this year.

Madam Chair, let me now outline my ministry’s strategy in the implementation of the 2007 Budget. The main thrust of the Budget is to ensure equitable land distribution and effective land delivery system through empowering the Zambian people, especially and in particular, women and other disadvantaged groups.

9.  New Land Measures.

In order to enhance the land delivery system, my ministry will implement the following measures:

i. Putting in place a Land Policy Administration and Management Framework;

ii. surveying of more land to ensure that land is opened for economic development in order to achieve equity and growth;

iii. implementing the Land Advocacy Programme in order to ensure land allocation procedures are clearly understood by all members of the public;

iv. undertaking a land audit in order to determine exactly how much land is available for various uses in the country;

v. ensure that proper guidelines are in place for allocation of both customary and state land;

vi. reviewing and re-engineering the business process in order to shorten and speed up the land administration, surveying and registration system;

vii. decentralising the operations of the ministry in order to bring service delivery closer to the people;

viii. providing more information on land to members of the public;

ix. enhancement of revenue collection by the ministry;

x. identification of suitable pieces of land for the creation of Multi-facility Economic Zones;

xi. supporting the surveying of the Chiefs’ boundaries and international boundaries with Zambia and her neighbours;

xii. addressing the needs of other economic sectors such as agriculture, mining, tourism, manufacturing, energy, transport and communication;

xiii. repossessing idle and undeveloped land and enforcing measures meant to address illegal land allocation; and

xiv. introduce measures aimed at preventing corruption in land allocation and ensure integrity of the ministry of lands in its operations in order to ensure transparency where land allocation is concerned.

Madam Chair, these are some of the measures which my ministry intends to address during the year 2007.

I thank you, Madam.{mospagebreak}

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Thank you Madam for giving me the opportunity to contribute to this vote. First and foremost I want to congratulate my brother, Mr Machila, for being appointed as Minister of Lands and this is basically on the basis of age because we want youths to be involved in the development of this country.

Madam, I want to draw the attention of this ministry to the issue of red tape concerning the allocation of land in district councils. We have seen more often than not that the land allocation in district councils has not been fair for a long time. The issue of land in district councils has always been a privy of the rich people. Why do I say so?

The conditions that go with allocation of land in district councils can not be met by an ordinary civil servant, a miner or a policeman. The most important requirement that they look at is how much money one has saved in the bank.

You will see that most people who do not even save enough money are the people who have built houses in this country. Most of the rich people that apply for land do not even develop this land but later on sell it at exorbitant prices. We need to come up with a law that will compel all the people that are allocated land not to sell that land until they do a bit of development.

Some people have turned land allocation into a business and that is why we hear of corruption at the Ministry of Lands because people get plots merely for selling them and not for development .

This is impacting negatively on the lives of the poor civil servants and miners who can not afford to have a huge saving by virtue of the amount of money they get as salaries from their employers.

We need to remove this red tape of offering land on the basis of how much money one has saved in the bank where one is required to produce a bank statement whenever one applies for land in the district councils.

Madam Chair, the purpose of the Ministry of Lands as alluded to by the Minister is to have an equitable distribution of land. However, the many red tapes that we have have disadvantaged our people and more especially the class that I mentioned earlier on.

We do have a law in this country that compels a person to develop land he has been allocated within a specific period. But what do we see if you walk in Lusaka, Copperbelt and Mongu? You find that some people have been holding on to plots for over fifteen years without developing them and there is no action that is being taken either by the Ministry of Lands or the district council as agents of the Ministry of Lands.

We need to be strict on the development of plots. We should not issue plots to persons so that they rear mice and cockroaches.

Laughter

We need every Zambian who is allocated land to develop that land within the given period of time.

The other problem that we have is the issue of servicing the land that is given for plots.  These councils are busy allocating land for which they can not provide services. For instance, in Luanshya there is a place called Kamirenda where plots have been allocated yet there are no roads, no water and no sewer system provided.  How do you expect people to develop such plots if the council first and foremost can not develop the services that go with land allocation? The Ministry of lands is there seeing these things and is not taking any action.

We need to take action against councils that are failing to provide services to newly demarcated plots.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear.

Mr Kambwili: The issue of the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines (ZCCM) title deeds Madam, has been debated in this House since 1996 and we are still talking about it today.

The President is on record during a by-election in Mufulira having said that miners would get their title deeds the following week. How many years have passed since then?

Up to now, they are still talking about title deeds for ex-ZCCM employees. To purchase something, you need to be given a receipt. In terms of purchasing a house, a receipt is a title deed. These miners are extremely suffering today. They need to get some loans from the bank for them to start some kind of small businesses but they cannot be given loans because they do not have security. When they go to the banks, they say they bought houses from ZCCM and they are told to produce their title deeds, which they do not have.

Madam Chairperson, coming from Roan Constituency which is primarily a miners area where over thirty thousand houses where sold to sitting tenants of ex-ZCCM employees, I am appealing to this Government to seriously address the issue of title deeds. We are tired of promises that are not fulfilling the pronouncements. Let us move from politics of appeasement. Let us not use the ZCCM title deeds for campaign purposes to get into office. The people are now tired. They are even saying that may be the Government is keeping their title deeds so that they can use them against people during campaigns. That is why you will find that it is one reason why this Government was not voted for on the Copperbelt. Every time they go there, they tell the people that if they do not vote for them they will go and grab their houses. The miners are not sleeping any more. I am appealing to the hon. Minister of Lands to sort out this problem once and for all. After all, you will lead a good leadership and people will say you are a hon. Minister who at least listened to them and gave them their title deeds.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Madam Chairperson, there is also an issue of guidelines of buildings to be built on these plots. It is shameful to see the kind of structures that are coming up in our cities, more especially, town centres. Honestly, how do you expect somebody to go and build a cabin in the central trading area of Lusaka or Luanshya? We need to guide these people that are given plots in town centres on the type of buildings they are supposed to build. Forty-two years after independence, it is a shame to find cabins being built as shops in the central trading areas of towns and cities.

Madam Chairperson, we must copy from our friends in South Africa. You will find that even the smallest town in South Africa has got beautiful buildings. When you go to Namibia and Botswana, you will find that the same situation. When you come to Zambia, you will find cabins being built in towns. What kind of corruption is this? We need to look at this issue very seriously if Zambia has to develop positively.

Madam Chairperson, I am suggesting to the hon. Minister and this Government which calls itself, ‘a listening Government’, that when retirees…

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: I have only said that you claim to be a listening Government, but you are not, so when you do this, you are just wasting your time.

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: Madam Chairperson, I am suggesting to this listening Government that every …

Hon. Government Members interrupted

Mr Kambwili: Does that make you happy? I am suggesting to this Government that every single servant who retires must be in entitled to a residential plot and a family land as a way of promoting building of houses and agriculture in our cities and towns.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Madam Chairperson, I was disturbed a few months ago when I heard that they wanted to get some land from the traditional chiefs, which is unacceptable. With the red tape that goes with the allocation of land, it is better we leave the customary land to the chiefs so that our poor people can access the land. If we grab the land from the traditional rulers, then the poor people in our communities will forever never have any land from this Government. I am therefore, appealing to the hon. Minister to reconsider the issue of taking away land from traditional rulers because this is the only way that our poor people in the villages can access land.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Madam Speaker, there is another issue of charcoal burners. I do not know if there is anybody who controls the charcoal burners. Trees have finished in the bush and we are watching.

Hon. Government Members: That is under the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources!

Mr Kambwili: Madam Chairperson, they have told us that the loss of trees has a very negative impact on the global warming. Around 0500 hours, we see people busy with their wheelbarrows moving charcoal. I wonder whether the inspectors who are supposed to be inspecting on these charcoal burners know that these people move between 0300 hours and 0500 hours. I think the inspectors are not doing their job. Ifi muti fyapwa. Unless we do something…

The Chairperson: Order! Interpret that.

Mr Kambwili: Madam Chairperson, trees are finished and unless we do something about the charcoal burners, Zambia will have serious problems. Already, we are experiencing floods that we never used to experience. This is because our trees are finishing. How are we going to control the atmosphere without trees? We need to come with the law and put inspectors to watch on these charcoal burners.  A number of trees that we are losing per year is just too enormous and we need to do something seriously about it.  

Madam Chairperson, on the issue of corruption at the Ministry of Lands, we were told in the newspaper that investigations were over. Therefore, the nation is watching and is waiting to know the truth. People have asked us what the latest is on the issue of corruption at Ministry of Lands and we have nothing to tell them. I am therefore, asking the hon. Minister of Lands to come to this House and inform us how far they have gone with the issue of corruption at the Ministry of Lands.

With these few words, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Shakafuswa): Madam Chairperson, the issue of land is a very important.  It is an issue which has to be discussed in a very sober manner because it affects all of us. I enjoy it when people say that there is a lot of red tape in their position of land.

Madam Chairperson, Jonas Shakafuswa is Headman Watunyama.

Interruptions

Mr Shakafuswa: I always go to the village to see my people. I am in charge of the entire village. You can even ask Hon. Lubinda because he also has a village and he is a village Headman in Kembe as well.

Laughter

The Chairperson: Order! Do not debate yourself. It may turn everybody to start responding.

Mr Shakafuswa: Madam Chairperson, thank you very much for your guidance and I hope Hon. Lubinda enjoyed it. When people talk about scarcity of land, some of us laugh because we have a lot of land where we come from. For those who have no villages, they can talk about scarcity of land. Everyone who comes from my clan has got a piece of land in my village and I am holding that land on their behalf. When we talk about land allocation, let us not forget where we come from. Everyone wants to come to town that is why there is this rural-urban drift. Why are we scared of developing our places of origin?

Interruptions

Mr Shakafuswa: I have invested a lot in my constituency and my village because I walk home. My home is just a few kilometres from here. This issue of land has become competitive in Lusaka. Someone has even wrongly said that we should leave customary land. If you leave customary land, you will not have land from Independence Stadium going to Kabwe because that is customary land. Where are you going to get land in Lusaka? That is why it has become expensive. You cannot find cheap land in Lusaka but why does everyone want be in Lusaka? Are you sure you do not come from somewhere?

Interruptions

Mr Shakafuswa: Why are you scared of going to your places of origin and develop the areas? Even as hon. Members of Parliament, you are supposed to start from investing in rural areas so that the people in your constituencies can see that they also have rich people in their areas. All these complications are coming because everybody wants to come to town.

Madam Chairperson, because of such talks in Zambia…

Mr D. Mwila: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr D. Mwila: On a point of order, Madam.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr D. Mwila: Madam Chairperson, I stand on a very serious point order. Is the hon. Deputy Minster in order to debate our conditions of service? The hon. Deputy Minister is talking about gratuity. I need your serious ruling.

The Chairperson: May the hon. Minister, continue?

Mr Shakafuswa laughed

Madam Chairperson, when we speak, we should not contradict ourselves. Someone is saying that we should talk about these things so that people who are coming to ask for land with bank statements are stopped. In the same vain, he is saying that there are a lot of plots which are not developed. I am a member of the council and the reason why councils ask this question is to make sure that they are assured of their ability to develop the plot.

Madam Chairperson, I know people who are getting plots for speculation. I have experienced this in my area where people come, get a plot and say that they are going to develop it.  Immediately he goes out, he sells the same plot, which he got at K250, 000 and sell it at K250 million. This is speculation. Only those who are strong characters can not speculate. This is very wrong.

We should, ensure that those who are coming to us asking for places to develop, they show ability. We should also expose those who are getting plots to make a profit so that land becomes a commodity because at the moment, it is very expensive.

We should have a law to stop such speculations because we are making land very expensive. We should move in such a way that somebody who wants to develop land cannot demarcate it and sell. We are making this free gift from God very expensive.

Madam Chairperson, as hon. Members of Parliament, all of us are councillors. Therefore, for someone to bring an issue of servicing plots, which is an issue of a local authority, is misdirecting this House. As a councillor, I am supposed to know what I am doing as a member of Lusaka City Council because Lusaka City Council charges this rate.

 For those who were cheating people in their constituencies that they will be representing them, but do not attend council meetings, they should make an effort to attend such meetings because as councillors we are supposed to be attending these meetings. Therefore, instead playing with money and drinking whisky in Lusaka, let us put fuel in our cars and attend councils meetings.

Hon. Government Members: Hear hers.

Mr Shakafuswa: When these service charges are collected, they should go towards servicing our areas. This is the responsibilities of all hon. Members of Parliament as councillors of councils in our localities.

Madam Chairperson, we always talk about ZCCM title deeds because we want to make a difference. There are people who open their mouths and think later.

Hon. PF Members: Aah!

Mr Shakafuswa: Madam Chairperson, I applied for a title deed for my farm in 2003. Up to date, I have not received the title deed. This shows that there are many applications for land at the Ministry of Lands. Therefore, the Ministry of Lands is overwhelmed. To me, I am not going to enjoy, where we give preference to ZCCM ex-employees because there are so many people out there who want their title deeds. We should use the concept of ‘first in, first out’ so that we all get what we want.

Madam Chairperson, there are people who have been coming to settle in my village and my constituency in particular. Some of them know that after working in town, you would want to go and settle at the village. These people have also applied. Therefore, to me, I would enjoy see them get title deeds than give privilege to a small group of people which others do not have.

Let us see how we can assist the Ministry of Lands to speed up the processing of Title Deeds. We should ask for more typewriters, printers and see how many title deeds they can process in a year. The other option is to ask for more budget allocation so that more paper work can be done within a year. That is the language, which people….

Mr Lubinda: Mwa manzi mwna!

Mr Shakafuswa: Thank you very much. My elder headman is asking me to drink, but I will continue.

Madam Chairperson, if you went to India or Britain, you would not get this commodity called ‘land’ as a Zambian. What we are saying is that, as a foreigner, if you have a company, you can own land through that company. At the rate this commodity is going, I think, let us guard it jealously.

For us who come from our own local arrangement, I would enjoy a situation whereby, if somebody loves Zambia and wants to live and become a Zambian citizen because of land, we should let him/her marry a Zambian and become equal partners because this is the only asset we have got. If you do not know, this is the most precious expensive asset.

Ten years from now, people like Hon. Given Lubinda will not afford land because you will find that their money would not be enough. Therefore, let us find a way of and sure that this land is kept to ourselves.

In our localities, we are allowing the so-called investors to make game parks with 20,000 hectares of land. Are you sure as a Zambian you cannot get 20,000 hectares, fence it and put animals inside and become a local bourgeoisie?

Laughter

Mr Shakafuswa: Do not complain about development in areas where you are coming from. As Government, we have brought in an enabling environment for those who are truly businessmen. If you have a very good proposal and your project is viable, you can go and borrow and become a proper entrepreneur who can develop any area where you come from.

The truth of the mater is that when we look at the resources that we have, it will take us 200 years to develop this country. We should stand up and start doing business activities as Zambians to help add value to this asset called ‘land’. If you are coming from an area where there are only tress and green vegetation and leave it like that without improving on the quality of a cob of maize and add value to it, we will just be talking. That is all. As you are aware, what we know best is talking and it seems that we enjoy it. What value do we add by talking?

I am happy that Hon. Kambwili mentioned one good thing. You will find that in areas where we used to have rains, the rainfall pattern has become bad. When you look at the vegetation you will find that it has changed. Once you start cutting down trees, you are chasing away rainfall.

Katuba is in the same area with Chongwe where Mwembeshi River is, but water is very far. You have to go 50 meters down for you to find water because trees are gone and therefore, the water table is further down.

It is high time we worked together with the Ministry of Energy and Water Development and looked at alternative energy sources. Our friends in other countries use gas stoves. I am happy to state here that Total has done a market study to see whether Zambians can change from using charcoal to gas. They have actually come up with a cost expense ratio where it is shows that it is cheaper to use gas than charcoal because charcoal is expensive. Instead of coming here to talk about charcoal alone, we need alternatives.

Laughter

Mr Shakafuswa: When you come here you do not just demand and say, ‘We want this or that’ instead, help the Government meet the demands of the people by coming up with alternatives that will make us progress. If you wait until you come into power that is when you will bring in alternatives, then you shall be at the back pushing us in front. We will continue with our good policies. However, we can make use of you, especially Hon. Kambwili if we find you to be useful as well as the other people here. Let us work together and make this country a better country. Five years of pausing in the end you will get tired, however, five years of participation, you will find it beautiful to be in this House and beautiful to go back home and say, ‘Yes, I was part and parcel of the decision of wealth creation in this country.’

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo): Madam Chairperson, from the onset, we need clarification in as far as land matters are concerned in the Ministry of Lands. We want clarification that if we talk about the land use, then we know we are talking about the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operative and if we talk about forestry we know that we are referring to the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources because all these ministries border on land matters.

However, the Ministry of Lands only concerns itself on the allocation of land and surveys and the use of land is left to another ministry. Therefore, this means that, the Ministry of Lands has failed to decide on how much land each Zambian should need. As a result, we have had situations whereby, people who have retired and are tired to start farming have buy land because they think that retired people must own land. They will be given a thousand hectares of land which they will be incapable of farming. In the end, they end up selling the land.

Madam Chairperson, people of Zambia do not value land. The present regulation states that land is available until it is developed. If it is not developed, the Ministry of Lands will get it back and develop it.

I want to state that to some extent, the Government is responsible for the cheating and corruption at the Ministry of Lands. As Government, you have not placed value on land and yet you are the same people who should authorise the transfer of certificates from point A to B. Therefore, you should place value on land.

Furthermore, regulations state that if you buy land, you only pay 10 per cent until there is approval of the sale.

Mr Kasongo: Tell them!

Mr Muntanga: The Government is supposed to send valuators to assess and agree whether the selling price of the land is correct. The Government has never sent anybody anywhere to go and assess the correctness of the values. As a result, land has become some means of making money because people in Zambia only value land when it is developed.

At the moment, corruption is being referred to at the Ministry of Lands. This will go on and on. There was a minister of lands then, who is not in the House, with a story of land issues with another minister, and then another minister had a land problem issue. However, I wish to urge you new Hon. Minister that you must be thick skinned so that you are not embroidered into the corruption of land.

Madam Chairperson, the land information system is poorly kept at the Ministry of Lands. In that department, officers freely enter information of land are able to remove it at will. This is the beginning of corruption. They are able to enter certain information today and erase it the next day. This happens at the Ministry of Lands and everybody who goes there knows this.

If one wants to follow the correct procedure of acquiring land, it will take years to get it. However, if one uses a shortcut, then that person is assured of getting the certificate within 24 hours but in between, cash would have exchanged hands.

The last time I debated I told you that the Commissioner of Lands was very powerful, I do not mean the present commissioner of lands or the then, but the new commissioner has also gone into the system and has been embroidered into the system. The system that is there is that titles are given in fake names or ghost names. Some use relative’s names or friends’ names. For example, land could be given to a Mr X or Madam X. If he/she does not do anything on the land, he/she will end up selling the land for either K200 or K300 million to another person, who will then sanction for a transfer of certificate.

Under normal procedure, the Government is supposed to send valuators to assess whether the price is correct, but that never happens. The officers involved act very fast and share the profits after the sale. And they will quickly sanction a transfer.

If a person sells land correctly, there is an aspect of paying VAT. If he does not want to pay, instead he will be cheating that there is no development on the land. If such a change is made the value becomes less than the actual figure. Is it not high time the Ministry of Land raised the actual value of land?

We have 90 per cent of our land under traditional land and corruption is so huge. As a result, this Government has started razing houses in the name of illegal allocation. Come off it, Madam Chairperson! The Ruling Government knows so well that a year or two ago it allowed party cadres to give land and people were allocated land. Now you have gone ahead to raze houses on the land you allowed your own party officials to allocate illegally. Check your facts. If you push me, I will be tempted to give you names. That at such and such a day a big officer allowed party officials to allocate land.

The Chairperson: Order! Order! Hon. Muntanga, may you speak through the Chair.

Mr Muntanga: Madam Chairperson, otherwise I will say, you allowed the people.

Laughter

The Chairperson: And that would be …

Mr Muntanga: Through you, Madam Chairperson, they allowed …

The Chairperson: Order!

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Madam Chairperson, they allowed them to share land. Now, that they know that there is something going on, they realised that it is embarrassing. How many of you have got land? A lot of you have.

Madam Chairperson, the other thing I wanted to mention is that we are not comfortable to hear that this minister said this or that minister said that. Sometimes I wonder whether these ministers read the cabinet guidelines in order for them to know what they are supposed to do. You are given cabinet guidelines, do you read that booklet?

Mr Mtonga: No!

Mr Muntanga: First you must understand that whatever decision you make as a minister it has implications on the Government.

Mr Mtonga: Sibabelenga!

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Muntanga: That is problem. You can change, Madam Chairperson, through you …

The Chairperson: Order!

Laughter

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.

Mr Muntanga: Madam Chairperson, when business was suspended, I was proceeding to state that it would be very important for Ministry of Lands, when there is any change of title from one owner to the other, to send government officials to place a value on that property so as to ascertain that actual developments have been done. If this is going to be effected, all speculations on the sale of land will end. Government will be able to stop people from selling land, for example, for K20 million when a piece of land is only worth K2 million. Until the hon. Minister of Lands does his job correctly, we will not be able to control the speculations.

Madam Chairperson, we have situations where title deeds change hands over night. Sometimes, people get title deeds in names that do not exist, merely to be used to sell land to other people. For example, in Mazabuka in Mugoto Resettlement, people applied for land 10 years ago. They paid and are on that land but no title has been given. Now we have a new company that is mining nickel. This company has been allocated 2,100 hectres and ninety-eight families are going to be displaced while everyone is jumping around. In spite of the fact that these people have lived on this land for over 30 to 40 years, they are being told to move out because somebody must dig some soil.  This company does not even need the whole 2000 hectres of land. Why were these people not given the title deeds? Why did you have to wait and now you want to displace them?

In Southern province, we already have a short of land.  Of the whole ten per cent of state land, about eighty to ninety per cent is in Southern province. I even tell my cousins from Western province that want to own land in Southern province, like the other cousin of mine, that they can own that some land in their province. The whole land in Western province is for the chief but you jump around to own land in Lusaka and Southern province. If you go back home, you will not be able to own land. We are short of land in Southern province because of the projects you are bring to us, like sugar estates, which are displacing people. Now there is a new company. Why should it be so?

What we are saying is that the Ministry of Lands should place the actual value on property. The Ministry must be able to tell us how much land is there. The Land Act is too old and places too much power in one person, who is the Land Commissioner, on behalf of the President. The Land Commissioner is the only one who can or can not sign for land.

When the MMD came into power in 1991, you did a number of wrong things. You abolished the Land Board whose duty was to sit with the Lands Commissioner so as to ensure that there were no unilateral decisions in giving out land. There is no land board now. All you have is one person to decide. He can argue or even point fingers with the hon. Minister over who right. The hon. Minister can issue any title deed unless the Lands commissioner. This has created problems in land distribution. Can we have the Land act repealed and create a land board so that no single individual will have authority over land. Otherwise, we are going to have witch hunting. Who owns what plot? Who has been given what? Is it your relative, daughter, son and so on? We do not need these harassments. Do what is correct. Repeal the Land Act and advise the councils that they are only agents of the Ministry of Lands.

I am observing the issue of that miner who is being given 2100 hectres when he does not even need all of it. I want to see if there is going to be a fast track approval of the title deed by the hon. Minister of Lands, when he failed to give titles to the people of Mugoto in Mazabuka for ten years.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: If you want to displace them, you must pay them in full or reallocate them to better land. In any case, why do want to displace them? If you want to displace those people, we will tell you that we do not need those mines. They do not pay tax at all. Close and go home. We will survive without that mine. We do not need people to be displaced because somebody is talking about nickel. What benefit do we get? If you want to displace people in Southern province, we are going to fight. We will hire the Litunga himself, who knows how to hold land. If need be, we will agree with him when he talks about secession be cause he is right. So…
Madam Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Chairperson, I know that Members of Parliament are supposed to defend people from losing their land. But is the Hon. Member of Parliament, who is speaking so eloquently and all of us on this side are listening attentively, in order, from nowhere, to say that he would want this country called Zambia to be divided? Is he in order to imply that there must be secession in this country?

Madam Chairperson: The Hon. Deputy Minister of Works and Supply has raised a point of order on the Hon. Member, Mr Muntanga, who is debating. The Chair takes it as a very serious point of order. Zambia is a unitary state and secession is unconstitutional. This House will not entertain talk of secession.

You may continue.

Mr Muntanga: Thank you very much. We will not secede, but we shall ask for federation so that Zambia remains as it is. We want to govern and administer our land laws as appropriately and as favorable to the people as possible.

Major Chizyuka: Hear, hear,!

Mr Muntanga: In that case, I will urge the Ministry to over-haul the Land Act and ensure that the people’s concerns are listened to. When you are going to place value on land, let your officers work. Get your surveyors to do a proper job. Have ridges made so as protect rivers. The Surveyor General’s office must operate so that we have contours properly made and rivers protected. Without all these things done, we shall just continue to dance to the tune of corruption.

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.{mospagebreak}

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Madam Chairperson, I would like to join my colleague Hon. Kambwili in congratulating Hon. Machila on his appointment. In congratulating him, I would like to remind him that he has gone into a very hostile Ministry. It is hostile because as you have heard from those who have contributed to the debate before us, the issue of land is a very emotive issue because every human being deserves to have land.

Madam Chairperson, the Vision 2030 of the Government also provides that it is necessary for every Zambian to have equitable access to land. That is the reason land issues are emotive. I am also sure that Hon. Machila knows that the Ministry he has gone to is one that has been roundly named as the most corrupt Ministry. I am short of saying the most corrupt institution in the land. Madam Chairperson, I am sure that the members are aware of the reasons why there is so much corruption in that Ministry.

Madam Chairperson, one of the major reasons is because of institutional weaknesses in the Ministry. There are so many institutional weaknesses which others have spoken about. I do not want to belabour that but just to caution my dear friends that now that there is an investigation at the Ministry, he too must be watching what is happening so that he may recommend institutional changes to ensure that the allocation and alienation of land is done in a smooth and transparent manner, that way we might change the image of the Ministry of being the most corrupt institution in Zambia.

Madam Chairperson, the other thing that he ought to do is to quickly decentralise the functions of the Ministry. Wherever there is so much centralisation of power, you will find there are people who will extremely make it bureaucratic for their own good. Corruption does not survive in a decentralised system as it does in a highly centralised institution and the alienation of land in this country is so centralised that there are only a handful of people who have a say on who should get and who should not get land. Madam Chairperson, that is the reason why we have heard in the recent past some people who were bestowed with the responsibility of managing land suggesting  to the Head of State that land must be used to pay cadres because they know that land is alienated and allocated behind curtains. If you open it and make it transparent, it will ensure that councils are not unnecessarily harassed by revoking their agency so that only one person decides who gets land, only then shall we have hope of cleaning up the Ministry of Lands in the allocation of land.

Madam Chairperson, I want to agree to a large extent with what Hon. Kambwili said and I wish Hon. Shakafuswa was here. Madam Chairperson, the idea of councils asking applicants to produce bank statements does not serve any purpose. All of us know that it does not. A person may borrow money from somewhere and beef up the account and produce a bank statement showing that they have money to build but tell me how many Zambians have belt within the statutory eighteen months? The law provides that within eighteen months you ought to start building. How many Zambians get land when they have enough money to invest? They are very few indeed. The majority of people acquire pieces of land and start to mobilise resources slowly and surely.

Madam Chairperson, if there is anybody I can sight as an example, it is the Head of State. All of us know that President Mwanawasa acquired land long before he became President but how long did it take him to build the house on Kudu Road? It took him a long time because at the time he acquired that piece of land, he did not have money stacked away in a bank for him to build. Why then should we subject the poor Zambians to come with bank statements? Where will they get the money in the first place? What we should be doing is to encourage that the poor people have access to land. Even marketers who do not have bank accounts will buy a block a day and will build shelter for themselves. If you insist on them coming with billions of kwacha, then what you are actually doing is increasing the rate of speculation on land.

That is the very reason why today, the ones that are suffering the demolition of their houses are not the rich and the powerful, it is the poor and the weak, they are the ones who did not have access to land through the council in Lusaka nor did they have access to land through the Ministry of Lands because they do not even have polished shoes to go into Ministry of Lands. What we ought to be doing hon. Minister is not to centralise but to actually decentralise even beyond the district level, we should go down to the sub-district level so that the poor people can have the opportunity to own a piece of their mother land.

Madam Chairperson, I would like to remind my colleagues and this is not political at all, that when we were campaigning for the September elections, there was a very comical advertisement on the ZNBC which was deliberately edited to steal the thinking of the Zambian people. When we were talking about demolishing illegal structures and that we would replace those illegal structures and give people sufficient land on which to build habitable structures, the MMD Government played around with our advertisement and used it as their own campaign advertisement and called us all sorts of names and demonised PF president Michael Sata. They said Michael Sata was such a bad and cruel man and that if you elected him in, he will come and demolish your structures.

Madam Chairperson, hardly seven months later, the same Government that was playing around with our messages is now in the forefront of demolishing.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: I am sure that the Zambian people out there are now able to judge who tells the truth and who uses politics for the sake of their own sustenance. Madam Chairperson, a lot of my colleagues have debated the issue of land but what I would like to concentrate on …

Mr Malwa: On a point of order, Sir.

Madam Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Malwa: Madam Chairperson, I rise on a very serious point of order. Is the hon. Member for Kabwata in order to speak about the demolition of illegal structures when the party PF is intending to take this Government to court because we demolished houses that were belt illegally. Is he in order to be commenting on issues that are going through the courts of law.

Interruptions

Madam Chairperson: Order! Will Hon. Lubinda continue, please.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, I want to reiterate that recent developments on the demolition of illegal structures in Lusaka is testimony of the fact that during the campaign towards the September elections of 2006, the MMD cheated the Zambian people that they would not demolish illegal structures. Now that they have …

Madam Chairperson: Order! The word ‘cheating’ is unparliamentary, will the hon. Member withdraw the word, please.

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, I withdraw the word and replace it with ‘they economised on the truth’.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, let me leave that aside and talk about one department in the Ministry of Lands.

which I hope my colleague will focus on very quickly. That is the surveyors department and specifically, the Survey Control Board. As a lawyer, I am sure he is aware the fact that the Survey Act Cap 188 provides for the establishment of the Surveyor Control Board, whose functions is one to survey, to do cadastral surveys and secondly, to map Zambia. The Survey Control Board according to that Act that I referred to provides for one, the Surveyor General and Government license surveyor nominated by the hon. Minster, two or more private license surveyors and one legal practitioner.

Unfortunately, hon. Minister, ever since 2005 one of the private surveyors, a Mr Njekwa died, the Surveyor Control Board has not sat. Can you imagine? One of the other functions of the surveyor control board is to license and give practicing licensees to surveyors. Can you imagine if since 2004 the board has not sat to examine surveyors, and yet, people are going out and alienating land. Who is it to alienate the land? The practicing certificate is supposed to be issued annually. Therefore, means that all those people going out surveying land in Zambia are acting illegally. Is that not the reason why or one of the reasons why we have so much problems with land alienation and land allocation. It is because the people who are surveying are not subject to any rules and regulations, because they are not examined and certified.

Madam Chairperson, in the Budget for 2006, this House allocated K30 million to the Survey Control Board. Hon. Minister, only 10 per cent of Zambia’s total land mass is surveyed. I am sure you are aware of that. Which means that, the Zambian people are in a hurry to see that more land is surveyed, alienated and allocated to them for them to build decent shelter, and yet, in this year’s budget the little amount of K30 million that was allocated last year has been cut to K20 million. How do you expect this board which has been moribund to start operating when the allocations you are making to them is even reduced. How much work do you expect them to conduct within K20 million for the whole year? I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister of Lands to start talking to the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, Hon. Magande, that immediately, he must start preparing for supplementary allocations to that department.

Now, somebody, Madam Chairperson, talked about why Zambians are not going out to build in rural areas. Let me put it to you my dear colleagues, that, first of all, the idea of the Ministry of Lands having more than one role, to have the responsibility on administering land and land use is too dangerous because again it gives too much power to one ministry. The Ministry of Lands must confirm itself only with the management and administration of land. Land use must be shared across all ministries. There is not a single ministry on earth with whose business does not involve on matters of land. What is important if you want people to go and build in Headman Watunyama’s village, Headman Shakafuswa, then the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry must be involved. You do not expect a person to go and start building a huge mansion in Headman Watunyama’s area when the Ministry of Energy and Water Development has not provided power.

That is the reason why I am against your concept of putting M-phases in already built up areas. What value are you adding to Zambia when you bring an M-phase in Kabwata Constituency? What you should actually be doing, is taking the M-phase to the periphery. This is because once the M-phase is built in the periphery the investor will have the duty of providing the entire necessary infrastructure to go to that M-phase. That will help for me, that the whole intercity space becomes attractive for private investment. Imagine what would have happened had Ben Mwiinga Complex built by PHI had it been built in Chalimbana. Tell me what would have happened. By now a lot of Zambians would have built in the whole space between Lusaka and Chalimbana. Instead, you get the Government money and go and built housing estates in the city. You expect that the poor Zambians are the ones who will go and build where there is no electricity, infrastructure and water. It does not work that way. The reason why you are in Government my colleagues is for you to direct development. You can direct development by deciding where to invest public money. The best places to invest public money are out there in the periphery.

Two years ago, I was lamenting the idea of us building old fashioned markets in Lusaka. I was asking, when you are going to start building sky scrapers in Lusaka. One of my colleagues in Government responded by saying, Mr Speaker, this Member of Parliament for Kabwata is talking as though he does not realise that Zambia has no shortage of land.

Laughter

Mr Lubinda: Zambia has no shortage of land, and yet, you are cramming all the investment into one city called Lusaka and you expect people to go and open up new investment areas. It does not work. Zambians, all service ministries, Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry and Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources support the Ministry of Land by opening up investment areas away from the cities, then, the Zambians will follow you. That way we will get rid of the rural urban drift. That is the only way of solving the problem.

Madam Chairperson, I am sure that my colleague the hon. Minister of Lands knows that we are saying this because we wish him to succeed without going away under the…

Madam Chairperson: Order! It is time up.

Mr Lubinda: I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Laughter

The Deputy Minister of Ministry of Mines and Mineral Development (Mr Mwale): Thank you, Madam Chairperson, for according me this opportunity to contribute on Head 85.

Madam Chairperson, I will restrict my debate to two issues. The first one, concerns the title deeds for ZCCM houses. I would like to appeal to our colleagues that they should present facts as there are. Yes, indeed, there could have been a promise of title deeds like what happened. Title deeds were in the process of being issued to ZCCM miners. There were to be issued 14 year leases, but my fellow miners demanded 99 year leases. Everybody who had to do with property know what is involved if you want a 99 year lease. To be given a 99 year lease, it requires demarcating and surveying. You imagine, surveying all those houses on the Copperbelt. It cannot be done in a single year.

Interruptions

Mr Mwale: That is a long process and that is why it has taken some time to give title deeds to the miners,…

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Mwale: …but it is about to be completed.

The other issue, Madam Chairperson, concerns Albidon Mine, legal mine in Mazabuka.

Laughter

Mr Mwale: Madam Chairperson, I would like to appeal again to our hon. Members to acquaint themselves with what is involved in mining. Even that small hole you see going underground, it can be 4 x 4 four metres, but the effect is so much. What I am referring to? There is an area that we call curving or substance area. That is an area which means that land is sterilised and no development can take place in that area. That is for the safety of the property of the people for safety of the people themselves.

What happened in Mufulira, Madam Chairperson? Our planners did a bad job. The cave in in Mufulira resulted in a muddy rush and we lost many lives in the 70s. We do not want that to be repeated in Mazabuka. The other thing we are talking about is mining operations. There is a provision for an explosive dump. We do not want to have people’s houses living here in an explosive dump. We know the consequences, even recently, we heard about what happened in Mozambique. There was no ignition of those explosives. What happened in Mozambique, we lost lives because people were near those explosive dumps. Those are the things that we have to consider when we are planning in mining.

Madam Chairperson, the other thing is that you want to think of where you are going to site a tailings dump. A tailings dump is not a thing that you can say where it is in a caving area.

These are all engineering considerations which have to be taken care of. With regard to mining operations, there are a lot of issues that we have to consider and this is the safety of the people and property. All those issues have to be taken into consideration. You cannot move the Nico Deposit in Mazabuka to Eastern Province for development. The mining has to take place in Mazabuka and nowhere else. That is the cost of development. In England, the place where the Faulty Towers is used to be a forest. That is the cost of development. Those are the issues that we have to understand.

Madam Chairperson, the investors for Nico Mine have promised and put it very clearly because as I am talking, they are building houses for the displaced people. What more can you ask for? They are also putting up a clinic where there is no clinic and a school where there is no school. What else do you want?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hachipuka: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr M Mwale: Madam, I am sorry for talking about my big brother.

Madam Chairperson, we should not just stir the mud at the watering hole because you know that you have a tap where you can drink clean water. If you want to be on the board of Nico Mine, just come out in the open …

Mr Hachipuka: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Hachipuka: Madam Chairperson, is the hon. Minister who has been debating well so far, in order to relate a clinic, school and houses to the values that Nico will get out of that mine? Is he in order to relate them and make the people of Mazabuka keep quiet on account of one school, clinic and five houses against the value this investor is going to take out of that mine?

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order! The hon. Member for Mbabala is concerned that the hon. Minister is debating issues of land, talking about the clinic, school and houses. The ruling or guidance from the Chair is that the clinic, houses and schools have to do with land, and he is debating land, and these are related. Therefore, he is in order.

May the hon. Minister continue, please.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr M Mwale: Madam Chairperson, I thank you for your protection.

Madam, there is no investor who can commit money where there is no title to that land. Therefore, these investors who are putting up the mine would like to ensure that there is title for that land before developing the mine.

I was bringing up one point that we should not stir the mud at a watering hole simply because you know that you have a tap. What do I mean by this? If you want the Chairmanship of the Board of Abidon Nico, come out in the open rather than stir the mud.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Sikota (Livingstone): Madam Chairperson, I thank you for allowing me to contribute to this debate. Firstly, I would like to congratulate the new hon. Minister of Lands on his appointment, Mr Machila. I realise that he has been appointed at a very difficult time. It is like being thrown into the deep end of the swimming pool, but I have got no doubt that he has sufficient swimming skills to be able to maneuver in there.

Madam Chairperson, the deep end that I am talking about is the undoubted corruption that there is in terms of land allocation, be it at the Ministry of Lands or the Local Councils, which as we all know are agents for the Ministry of Lands.

Madam, corruption at these two places is at different levels. You have the high level of corruption which involves the rich and powerful, who use their influence in order to get preferential treatment in terms of allocation of land. You have the corruption at the bureaucratic level, which is from the bureaucrats, either the Ministry of Lands or the Councils, which forces people to give to the officials some kind of token to push the paper work along. We have also corruption which is brought about from the institutional level. This basically feeds into these other two levels that I have talked about in that there is slowness in the manner in which applications are processed, may be due to the lack of land, meaning land which has been surveyed, numbered and available to be obtained.

All the corruption at these different levels needs to be tackled. Unless we see ways in which we can tackle it, we will not fight it effectively. One of the ways is of course, to be very transparent in all dealings of land. We have to ensure that no land is ever alienated without public advertisements being put out. A proper record of when particular people apply for land and how many have applied for that particular land should be kept. The allocation process must always be done publicly whether it is at council or at the Ministry of Lands level. That way, you will be able to eliminate a lot of opportunities for allocations which are not following the procedure that everybody else has to go through.

In order for us to also have equitable access to land and distribution, it is necessary to have a deliberate policy that those who already have land should always be the last preference so that as many people as possible can access land. I think it is immoral to have a situation where you have people with several pieces of land and quite often, they have not even developed these pieces of land. Therefore, one of the criterion as well should be if somebody is currently holding land which they have not developed, surely, they should not be given any further land because they have not demonstrated that they can actually develop that which they have already have. That I think would also help to curtail the amount of speculation we have in terms of land. People just amass pieces of land with no intention to develop them, but merely to make a huge profit on them by selling them off.

If there was this caveat against people applying for land at a time when they are holding undeveloped land, I think we would go a long towards curtailing this kind of speculation which is there. I think that it would not be very difficult to do this because land allocation systems have now been computerised at the Ministry of Lands. Therefore, it will be very easy to punch in and find out what land is held by any applicant and also to follow that up by finding out from the council, whether for that particular piece of land, there has been an occupation certification which has been given. The occupation certificate would show whether or not the development has taken place. It would not be a very difficult thing to do.

Madam Chairperson, there is also the aspect of people holding on to land and not developing it which leads to this speculation. I think it would not be amiss for the law to be changed so that you could have punitive lease charges for properties which are not developed after a certain period. Whether it would be 300 per cent more that they have to pay or whatever, it would still serve the purpose of making people give back land if they do not have the capacity of developing it rather than have an artificial shortage of land so that people can not access land yet there is lots of undeveloped plots. I think this would help to get rid of that.

There are also insufficient areas which are being opened up due to lack of surveys being done. I am happy that the hon. Minister pointed out in the policy debate that they do intend to actually rectify this. Though I was intending to talk at length on this, I think we will take the hon. Minister’s word and hope that we will see the cadastral survey equipment being utilised to good use thereby opening more pieces of land for people to be able to access land.

Madam Chairperson, there is also a need for a deliberate policy to provide land of different categories. It seems that the people who are at the economic scale are finding that there is very little land which is being opened up for them. There seem to be a concentration for land for high cost building and may be even middle cost buildings, but for the low cost housing, there seems to be precious little which is being done to open up this kind of land where they can get proper title deeds so that they can even go and get loans and mortgages and so forth. We are neglecting them. We are not empowering them by making this available. I hope the hon. Minister will look into this because, after all, the majority of the Zambian people are in this category and they are the ones that we are ignoring. I think that our emphasis should be the other way round so that in that way, we will not get into a situation like we are in now where you have lots of illegal buildings where you will end up having to go and demolish these buildings because people have been put into a situation where they can not access land in a legal manner. Out of desperation, everybody will try to get shelter. I am not saying that it is right for people to build illegally, but let us help them not to get into that desperate situation where they would want to build illegally.

Whilst on the issue of the demolished properties and so forth, it is clear that these people have been led into this situation by unscrupulous people who actually made them believe that they were legally getting this land. I hope that the current investigation and corruption which is going on at the Ministry of Lands will be extended to even land given by the councils. In this way, they will investigate from amongst these people who had their houses demolished who exactly led them into that situation. Who gave them the false title deeds? Who gave them the false hope that they were putting their money into something which was legal? If these people do not have the capacity themselves to seek legal help, I think it is incumbent on the state to help them by way of prosecuting these people who have been giving out this land in this fashion because it is a criminal offence for somebody to go out and purport to have authority to sell or alienate land when, in fact, they do not own it. It is actually fraudulent and obtaining money by false pretences. The Government should go out and protect these people by way of pursuing those who put them in that situation. Our laws are such that there is provision when somebody is convicted for compensation to be ordered against such people. From what we understand, the people who have been dealing in these land issues have become extremely rich people. They do have capacity to compensate quite a number of the people whom they have misled and the Government can help to alleviate the hardship that these people have by stepping in that ring.

Apart from that, Madam Chairperson, if that is done, it would serve as a great deterrent to others so that they do not go about doing it with impunity because the people who actually gave out that land are right now known. It would not be difficult to corner them. They are well known where they are, but they are laughing all the way to the bank, yet an example could be made out of them. I hope that the Government will make an example out of them so that this kind of exploitation of the people is actually curtailed.

Madam Chairperson, there is the issue of traditional land and how investors come and get large tracts of land and convert it into statutory lease hold having paid very little for it. The equivalent of the bottle of whisky we heard in centuries past was being used to buy countries. I propose that we have a law in place to protect that resource which our people are supposed to have and which is supposed to be a resource for future generations in that if there is alienation of traditional land, there should be something like customary land, ground rent or lease charge which would continue to be paid by whoever has gotten that piece of land to the community. This will be over and above what is paid to the state as ground rent and so on because after all, that land is for the people and so the people should never ever lose the right to earn something from it. It is not a renewable resource, yet we hear of thousands of acres being given away here and there. Within a few years time, we would have given away our children’s inheritance, unless something is put in place to reserve a little that will go back to them.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikota: We must realise that everything we do is done on behalf of future generations. We should not look at ourselves as custodians, but look at ourselves as custodians for all those future generations.

Madam Chairperson, with these few remarks, I thank you.{mospagebreak}

Mr Machila: Madam Chairperson, I would like to thank all those who have debated on this vote.

First and foremost, I would like to thank those who conveyed congratulatory messages to me on my appointment. I know remedial measures as to the task that is at hand for me.

The issues that have been raised in the debate have been very current and in some instances, they have already been addressed in some of the questions that have come before this House, in particular, I think of the ZCCM title deeds issue which the hon. Deputy Minister for Mines and Minerals Development spoke in response to comments from Hon. Kambwili, Member of Parliament for Roan Constituency. I would like to assure the people on the Copperbelt through your hon. Members of Parliament present here that we are going to diligently look at the issue in terms of the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines (ZCCM) title deeds and work towards bringing those a close sooner rather than later. In doing such exercise, we shall be working closely with the ZCCM Investment Holdings who had been assisting in funding the exercise.

The other issue that have been spoken about here is the process of allocation whereby those who have some source of finances have had a preference in terms of allocations. We are very mindful to the fact that the land in Zambia belongs to all Zambians and not just those who have the means. I have taken on board comments raised by Hon. Sakwiba Sikota in particular, that we need ensure that we make this important resource available to those of lesser means.

Hon. Sikota also touched on an issue with regards to the tendency of our traditional rulers to allocate large tracts of land to so-called investors who put up game ranches. We have already had some discussions and will be coordinating with the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives to ensure that we get maximum benefit out of our land. If that land is suitable for arable purposes for agriculture, then it follows that we should give preference in those choices.

Hon Shakafuswa spoke about foreigners owning lands. Yes, there is provision on the existing Land Act under which foreigners can own land legitimately within the law. However, we are also aware that there has been a tendency for foreigners to use Zambians to front and own land as farms for them. We shall address this issue, again, as we look at policies going forward, in particular, the National Lands Policy, which is pending.

Hon. Muntanga spoke at length about the need for the Government to access land that is being transacted. I would just like to state that in the past, there was a system whereby all land that was being transferred, would only be issued a property transfer tax upon the production of valid reasons for that being done away with. However, having said, we shall gain, revisit this and see what we can do to ensure that proper prices are being paid for properties that are being conveyed.

Hon. Muntanga also spoke about the development that is coming up Munali Hills. Again, the message has been received loud and clear and we shall ensure that the interest of our people that are resident within those areas are properly located for and I can assure you there will be no such thing as a fast track title deed at the expense of the inhabitants in the area.

Hon. Lubinda made reference to the Surveyor Control Board. I wish to say that the current board in currently touched to ensure that lands surveyors are popularly licensed and that there is a need to reconstitute the board and in due course, we shall look into this issue.

Before, I conclude, let me state that the problems that are being faced with regards to land as has already been stated here, I can say that it is not just the Ministry of Lands, but also the councils. It is important that we also keep in mind that the majority of the councils that have been a problem are those that have been in the control of the Opposition. We would implore all of you here who are Members of Parliament and members of those councils to work with us as Government as we begin to address this important issue that relates to our national wealth, which is important for us to leave behind for the generation to come.

I thank you, Madam Chair.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 85/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 85/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 85/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 85/04 – Ministry of Lands – Survey Department – K8, 802,994,083).

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Sub-head 1, Programme 7, Activity 05 – Map Printing Services – K1, 350,000,000.

Mr Machila: Madam Chairperson, this relates to some equipment that will be purchased by the department to facilitate the production and processing of maps that could be sold through the Ministry of Lands. We have been having many incidences of applications for this information which has not been available. However, this will be run on a commercial basis.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Vote 85/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 21 – (Loans and Investments – Ministry of Finance and National Planning – K1, 213,695,278,387).

VOTE 37 – (Ministry of Finance and National Planning – K1, 075,213,046,089).

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Magande): Madam Chairperson, I have the honour to now present to this august House the 2007 Budget Estimates for the Ministry of Finance and National Planning. For the benefit of the hon. Members, the Ministry of Finance and National Planning is responsible for Heads 21 and 37.

However, since Head 21 includes loans for projects and programmes under various ministries, it has been decided that the implementing ministries will deal with part of Head 21 pertaining to those projects. Indeed, as we heard today, the hon. Minister of Works and Supply did in fact, speak on some of the programmes under Head 21 and I do not intend therefore, to go into those details. Under Head 37, allocations are made for programmes and activities that concern the whole Government system and I will explain this later.

Madam, the Ministry of Finance and National Planning is guided by the mission statement contained in our strategic plan and I quote,

“To effectively and efficiently co-ordinate national planning and economic management, mobilise and manage public financial and economic resources in a transparent and accountable manner for sustainable national development and the well being of the people of Zambia.”

Madam Chairperson, towards the achieving of this mission statement, my ministry, which now has three divisions namely, the budget and economic affairs division, the financial management and administration division, and the newly created planning and economic management division has set out the following policy objectives, amongst others:

(i) To develop appropriate and review existing economic and financial policies in order to create a suitable macroeconomic environment, enhance economic management and promote economic development;

(ii) To improve transparency and accountability in the management of economic and financial resources in order to ensure that Government expenditure is within approved provisions;

(iii) To improve resource mobilisation in order to provide sufficient resources to facilitate the execution of national programmes and projects;

(iv) To develop and implement debt management strategies that will result in a reduced national debt stock; and

(v) To design and implement an integrated information communication technology infrastructure and support the information systems for effective and efficient information delivery and exchange.

Madam Chairperson, under Head 21, Loans and Investments, my ministry will continue to facilitate payments of counterpart funding for donor funded projects that are directly under the charge of the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, make contributions to the major regional and international organisations as well as the management of Government investments.

In addition, my ministry will also continue to coordinate all payments relating to the rehabilitation and construction of roads through the National Road Fund Agency.

Madam Chairperson, hon. Members will recall that last year, this House enacted a law deliberately aimed at economically empowering our citizenry. Since then, the Government has set up the Citizens’ Economic Empowerment Commission to oversee the implementation of this historic Act.  In line with the objectives of this Act, funds have been allocated under my ministry for enterprise development by citizens with viable business proposals.

One of the major tasks of the commission will be to develop a transparent and efficiently system of appraisal of projects, disbursement and monitoring of the utilisation of the funds.

Madam Chairperson, during the past two years, my ministry has engaged in an elaborate process of preparing the National Vision and the Fifth National Development Plan. With the launch of these documents by His Excellency the President in January this year, my ministry is now directing its attention to strengthening the budget implementation and monitoring in order to improve budget execution and outcomes. In this regard, a division to monitor and evaluate the implementation of the plans has been established in the ministry.

Madam Chairperson, my ministry will continue to co-ordinate reforms under the Public Expenditure and Management Financial Accountability (PEMFA) Programme aimed at enhancing prudent public expenditure management and financial accountability. For the benefit of hon. Members, I wish to highlight some of major activities going on as part of these reforms.

Madam Chairperson, the Office of the Auditor-General is in the process of decentralising operations to the provinces. The construction of provincial offices is progressing well and the offices are expected to be ready for occupation by June this year. Under the National Assembly, the programme will this year support the construction of committee rooms so that Parliament is able to perform its oversight function in a more conducive environment. The programme is also supporting the establishment. The programme is also supporting the establishment of an Integrated Financial Management Information System (IFMIS) to aid strategic management of public resources for enhanced accountability, transparency and cost effectiveness in Public Service delivery. The testing of the system will be done by December this year in readiness for going live in April, 2008.

Madam Chairperson, my ministry is committed to ensuring that there is fiscal and monetary prudence in the management of public resources. In this regard, my ministry is working on streamlining internal operations in order to enhance efficiency and effectiveness. For example, it has been observed that huge sums of public money remain unspent in the accounts of line ministries at the end of each financial year. The holding on to these funds, tends to deprive other needy areas thereby, disrupting budget execution. This also adversely affects our fiscal and monetary policy implementation. With the proposed management changes, it is anticipated that there will be improved budget execution in line with the focus on his year’s theme of improved service delivery.

Madam Chairperson, as I conclude my statement, I recognise that many of the hon. Members are new to this House and this is the first time that they are debating a National Budget. For the benefit of these new hon. Members and indeed, the national as a whole, I wish to take this opportunity to once again, briefly explain the allocations under Head 37 which is the operational budget of my ministry so that we establish a common and better understanding of the magnitude of the amounts that are allocated there.

Madam Chairperson, I wish to state that my ministry serves as a holding vault for many programmes and activities that do not benefit only the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, but the entire Government system.

Madam Chairperson, for 2007, the total estimate for the Ministry of Finance and National Planning stands at K1, 075.2 billion.  Of this amount, K356.9 billion is for personal emoluments while K718.2 billion is for non-personal emoluments programmes.

Under personal emoluments, a total sum of K320 billion relates to items that benefits the entire Civil Service, but whose payment is made by the Ministry of Finance and National Planning. The break down of these items is as follows:

(i) K132.5 billion is for payment of the current housing allowance to all eligible officers across the Civil Service;

(ii) K86.0 billion is for clearance of arrears of housing allowances awarded to the Civil Service in 2002 and 2003;

(iii) K92.1 billion is for employer’s share of pensions contributions being paid centrally on behalf of all Government institutions;

(iv) K9.5 billion is for contractual in all ministries; and

(v) K1.6 billion is for contribution to the Workers’ Compensation Fund.

Madam Chairperson, when all these figures are taken into account, the actual estimate for personal emoluments for personnel under my ministry stands at only K36.9 billion which is only K5.4 billion or 18.8 per cent higher than the 2006 estimates. This increase is attributed to the salary increase that was awarded to the civil service in 2006.

Out of the total amount of K718.2 billion estimated for programmes, a sum of K197.0 billion is the allocation for the grant to the Zambia Revenue Authority. K151.1 billion is for dismantling of arrears for suppliers and contractors and K80.0 billion is for settlement of cases decided against the Government in our courts of law. Within the figure for programmes, there is also a sum of K141.8 billion which represents funds from Cooperating Partners to support the Public Expenditure Management and Financial Accountability Reform Programme.

Madam Chairperson, the hon. Members will note that, when we net out these special allocations to the rest of the Government system, the actual estimate for programmes for my ministry including the Central Statistics Office stands at K148.3 billion. This represents an increase of only 7.4 per cent over the 2006 estimate which is an average increase across most of the ministries. Of course, some ministries got as much as 100 per cent increase.

As supervisor of all public revenues and expenditures, my ministry’s estimates require the support of all the hon. Members of Parliament in order for the whole financial system to work effectively and efficiently.

Madam Chairperson, I hope that Hon. Kasongo who was ready to stand up is going to support my Vote and others.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: That is corruption Minister!

Laughter

Mr Kasongo (Bangweulu): Madam Chairperson, thank you for giving me this opportunity to definitely support the Vote that we are now considering.

 In doing so, allow me to first pay tribute to the Hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning  for having recorded two successes. Firstly, he has restored the appropriation in aid. It has always been our desire that restoration of appropriation aid would go a long way in assisting individual ministries in implementing some of the decisions which are supposed to be implemented as quickly as possible. I say well done to you Hon. Minister.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: I recall that when I spoke to the Hon. Minister about the same issue, he was reluctant. He managed to convince me at that time. He expressed fear that should he restore appropriation aid, the same facility would not be utilised sufficiently. Most of my colleagues would be using the same amount of money to buy things that are not even beneficial to their ministries. The same fears have been justified in one way or another. Some of the ministries that have been given the liberty to spend money out of the money that they collect have been using it to buy television sets. This is very embarrassing. For example, the Hon. Minister has given you that latitude to return part of the money that you generate from your individual ministries, we expect you to use that money to raise the standards of living for our people.

That must stop. Buying a television set at the expense, for example, of buying computers for your offices or villages is something that you can think about. It is a question of making the right choice. I am happy hon. Minister that you have made a decision.

Madam Chairperson, I remember having advised the hon. Minister to visit Chirundu border and other border areas to see how best he would be able to generate a lot of money. I remember at that time his response was negative and he told me in plan language that that was not his responsibility. Madam Chairperson, I am happy now that he has changed his mind, he has taken the trouble of going to Chirundu Border to see for himself the potential that is there for us to generate a lot of money. The same action that he has taken can be extended to other border areas. You will agree with me that even the hon. Minister himself who has been given the responsibility of generating money or raising revenue in order for the Government to implement its decisions may not even be going to Washington to discuss this concept of IMF, World Bank and so on because we have the potential at Chirundu, Kasumbalesa and at all our border areas to generate a lot of revenue for him to implement his programmes.

Madam Chairperson, you may just go to Washington to look for very minimum amounts of money in form of a deficit. I commend the hon. Minister and I would like to advise him to review our relationship with the IMF and the World Bank. It is not too late. In other words, if for example, we tapped that potential at Chirundu, Kasumbalesa and so on, we should be able to devote the World Bank and IMF systematically. I know that this cannot be done overnight but gradually, we can achieve something. We have a lot of money. If only we could decongest Chirundu Border Post and other border posts, there is a lot of potential to generate a lot of money maybe ten times what we are currently generating. It is a question of commitment.

Madam Chairperson, I would like to say that since we are in the process of decongesting border posts, the hon. Minister can again begin negotiating with the area Member of Parliament for Siavonga, village headmen and everybody involved so that all those people who are closer to the border area can shift away from that place, they can find a place for them where they can construct houses. What we want to see is the processing of documentation and allowing traffic to pass through our border areas without difficulties. I think he was able to see the chaotic manner in which these vehicles are stranded so to speak. Some of them spend about five days or six days before they are cleared. It means that the more delays we make in allowing these vehicles to come in and vice versa, the more revenue we lose.

Madam Chairperson, I would like the hon. Minister to discuss these issues with the local community so that those who are closer to the border will be taken elsewhere and that way, you will allow free passage of vehicles and that will mean generating a lot of money for your Ministry and the nation as a whole.

Additionally, it is important for the hon. Minister to begin to discriminating against some ministries that have the potential of generating a lot of money so that they are less funded. I have in mind for example, the Ministry of Tourism, a department known as the Zambia Wildlife Authority. I cannot see how ZAWA can even be queuing up for money at the Ministry of Finance and National Planning. Why should ZAWA be funded by the Ministry of Finance and National Planning when that institution has the potential of standing on its own and has the potential of generating a lot of revenue? There should be something lacking somewhere. Re-organise some of these departments that have the potential of generating revenue. ZAWA would have been weaned a long time ago. Why should we keep funding these institutions which are capable of generating a lot of revenue?

Madam Chairperson, the Ministry of Communications and Transport through the Road Traffic Commission, is another practical example of an institution that can generate a lot of revenue. Something is wrong somewhere. We have to recognise this entire department. They had been told several times about corruption in the same institution. That is why you have this problem of raising revenue. The money is just being pocket by a few individuals. These are institutions hon. Minister you should target. I do not see the reason why the Road Traffic Commission cannot contribute 100 per cent to the Treasury. Something has gone wrong. Hon. Cabinet Ministers, look at this institution that has the potential of raising a lot of revenue.

The judiciary, for example, is another shining example. How many cases have been committed by our Zambians and non-Zambians? How much money are you generating from the judiciary? Starting from local courts, people are always going to magistrate courts, the High Court and the Supreme Court. What has gone wrong? There must be something wrong with our Controlling Officers. They should be accountable for whatever they generate. Time has come for you as hon. Ministers to see what is happening in your respective ministries. The issue of saying, I have no power over my Permanent Secretary. It is something that is unpardonable. You are political heads of ministries and there is no way you can doubt your powers. The President has given you powers. What more powers are looking for?

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: Your Controlling Officer cannot generate a lot of money and you are saying you have no powers over your Controlling Officer because he is also a political appointee. No, we are not going to tolerate those excuses because there is abject poverty in Zambia.

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes.

Mr Kasongo: You supervise your Controlling Officers. Make sure that whatever little ngwee is collected from the judiciary and any another ministry that have the potential of generating money is sent to the coffers.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: So that ultimately, the living standards of our people will be raised.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: There is no way you can be talking about the IMF and World when we have the wealth in our country. We have the money that we are looking at. Take action and the time, is now for you to change your habits. The problem that we have is that, you like addressing the public all the time. Supervise your ministries and managers.

Laughter

Mr Kasongo: See how much money is being collected everyday.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: Madam Chairperson, let me also advice the hon. Minister to ensure that when funds are approved by this House, the same funds should be released as quickly as possible in order to allow the programme to be implemented as quickly as possible. This is what we want to see. At the same time, there must be accountability on the part of those who have been given the powers of spending the same amount of money. Accountability is lacking. Money is released to provinces and ministries, but what is taking place is that only a few individuals are benefiting from the same.

Madam Chairperson: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

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The House adjourned at 1957 hours until 1430 hours on Wednesday, 28th March, 2007.