PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE FIRST SESSION OF THE TENTH ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 25th July, 2007

The House Met at 1430 hours

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

2007 RECRUITMENT AND DEPLOYMENT OF TEACHERS

The Minister of Education (Professor Lungwangwa): Madam Speaker, the Ministry of Education has been authorised by the Public Service Management Division (PSMD) to recruit and deploy a total of 6,300 teachers in identified vacancies in schools across the country. These vacancies have been based on the approved school establishments in the country.

The ministry will employ teachers as per existing vacancies in all the provinces. These are replacements of the teachers who retired, resigned and died. The recruitment is as follows:

 Province           Number of Teachers

  Central                  705
  Copperbelt         1,262
  Eastern                 560
  Luapula                583
  Lusaka                 481
  Northern               472
  North-Western     350
  Southern           1,278
  Western               609
 Total                  6,300

This figure, I would like to emphasise, is inclusive of the 678 teachers who did not report last year. There was a question on the Floor of the House to that effect. There was no negligence last year. They simply did not report.

In addition to recruitment by replacement, the ministry is still awaiting further authority to recruit a net recruitment of 4,000 teachers who will be deployed to the districts where there is evidence of poor performance in order to improve on the quality delivery of education in our schools.

Many schools, mainly in the rural areas, do not have adequate teachers to ensure quality education. This measure will, therefore, address the many concerns that our people have expressed in the recent past vis-à-vis the demand for more teachers in our schools.

Madam Speaker, the recruitment has been divided into two phases as follows:

Phase One (I) Teacher Replacement – 6,300

Advertisement

The ministry has already sent the request to advertise the recruitment under this category to both the electronic and print media so that candidates with the necessary qualifications are given an opportunity to apply.

Eligibility for Recruitment

Teachers who successfully completed their training between the year 2002 and 2006 are requested to submit their applications to the Provincial Education Offices or District Education Board Secretaries’ Offices. No application will be accepted at the Ministry of Education Headquarters.

Method of Application

Candidates are required to fill in Application Form (STS Form 1) that is obtainable only at the Provincial and District Education Offices. Further, duly completed forms should be handed to either the Provincial Education Officers or the District Education Board Secretaries. Those who already applied should not re-apply as their forms are already with the respective District Education Board Secretaries.

Closing Date

The closing date for the receipt of application forms by the District Education Board Secretaries’ Offices is 3rd August, 2007.

This has been done to allow applicants in the rural and remote areas of the country to respond to the advertisements. Members of Parliament are called upon to encourage eligible candidates in their respective areas to apply.

Phase Two (II) Net Recruitment

Madam Speaker, Phase II of the employment of teachers will begin as soon as the process of obtaining authority from PSMD to employ a further 4,000 teachers is completed.

Madam Speaker, this overall authorisation by PSMD to allow the Ministry of Education to recruit or deploy teachers to the needy schools is expected to give the Ministry of Education a total of 10,300 teachers to be recruited in the course of this year when the exercise is completed. It is my sincere hope that all the teachers who were left out from last year’s recruitment will be employed in 2007.

Conditions

Madam Speaker, I must emphasise that these vacancies are against existing posts and therefore, not transferable. I must also make it very clear that these positions are in rural areas and therefore, candidates stand better chances of being selected if they apply in the rural districts, outside the line of rail, especially in areas such as the Eastern, Western, parts of the Southern, Northern, North-Western and Luapula Provinces.

Please, note that new teachers will not be transferred from one province to the other until they have served for a period of two years in a given district.

Interruptions

Professor Lungwangwa: Madam Speaker, allow me to say that the process of employing teachers will be transparent. The actual employment process will involve all the key players such as the Provincial Education Officers, all the District Education Board Secretaries, Teacher Union Officials as well as the Anti-Corruption Commission. Since this process has been decentralised, the involvement of the Ministry of Education Headquarters is simply to provide policy guidelines and guidance. Already, my ministry has developed guidelines which will be used in this process.

Madam Speaker, the implications of recruiting such a huge number of teachers, for the first time in recent years, will have a positive impact on our education system in many ways such as the following:

(i) provision of employment to a lot of newly trained graduates who could not be absorbed in the previous recruitment exercises. This will tremendously reduce the backlog of new teachers who could not be employed after graduation;

(ii) it is expected that there will be improved teaching and learning in our schools, thereby reducing on the double or triple shifts that is notable in many of our schools;

(iii) there will be a reduction on the teacher-pupil ratio which has been high due to the inadequate number of teachers in some schools. The ministry will continue striving to achieve an acceptable teacher-pupil ratio from the current average of 1:57 to a lower ratio at the basic school level (Grade 1-7).

The increase in the number of teachers will obviously allow teachers to pay more attention to individual pupils which, in turn, will result in better performance of pupils in our schools; and

(vi) the rural schools will now have teachers unlike in the past where only few schools were adequately staffed.

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, it is my conviction that this big number of teachers to be recruited and deployed to our schools is an indication of the major commitment of the Government to improve the socio-economic status of the people, which, of course, is to be achieved by laying a firm foundation derived from the provision of quality education to all the children of Zambia.

Subsequently, this measure will focus on meeting not only the Fifth National Development Goals, but also the Millennium Development Goals and Education For All Goals.

I urge the teachers to be recruited to render their service where they will be posted because that is where their service is being demanded.

Madam Speaker, I lay on the Table of the House additional data on teacher recruitment and deployment, which indicates school by school, the teachers to be recruited in all the districts of Zambia.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Professor Lungwangwa laid the paper on the Table.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the Ministerial Statement given by the hon. Minister of Education.

Mr Muyanda (Sinazongwe): Madam Speaker, I seek clarification on the Ministerial Statement given by the hon. Minister of Education to this august House. Has the Government constructed houses in order to commensurately accommodate the teachers according to the standards required of a teacher?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: Madam Speaker, school improvement in the country has to be undertaken with utmost seriousness. There are a number of activities which have to follow concurrently. These include infrastructure development, teacher recruitment, and education materials provision. Since these are important factors in improving the quality of our education system, we cannot slacken on any one of them. They have to be acted on concurrently. Therefore, as we recruit teachers, we are also cognisant of the fact that we need to put in place school infrastructure, in particular, teachers’ housing. That process is going on concurrently as part of the package for school improvement.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kanyanyamina (Kanchibiya): Madam Speaker, I would like to find out if the hon. Minister is serious that he is sending 400 teachers to the Northern Province when there are twelve districts in the province. I am also saying so because Mpika alone needs about 300 additional teachers and these records can be collected from the District Education Board Secretary’s office. Can he confirm whether what he is saying is true?

Professor Lungwangwa: Madam Speaker, the information on which the recruitment exercise is based, is comprehensive. Vacancies in the various districts of the country were collected. This document contains the number of vacancies that have been identified in each school in all the districts.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr V. Mwale (Chipangali): Madam Speaker, can the hon. Minister of Education inform this House how the districts came up with these figures? In most cases, the districts do not have vehicles to go round the schools to check how many teachers should be employed.

Professor Lungwangwa: Madam Speaker that is an impressionistic statement which I think is devoid of fact because a number of district education staff have vehicles, and are able to go to the schools and collect data.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Munaile (Malole): Madam Speaker, I am convinced that the hon. Minister has not adequately responded to Hon. Muyanda’s question. Currently, in some cases, the ministry gives less than K200, 000 for infrastructure development. This being the case, what is the ministry doing about the construction of teachers’ houses?

Professor Lungwangwa: Madam Speaker, it is unfortunate that we forget facts. This House approved a budget of over K300 billion for infrastructure development for the Ministry of Education. Within that allocation, is the money for construction of teachers’ houses. I would like to request hon. Members to reflect on the figures that are in the Budget instead of making sweeping statements such as the K200, 000 the hon. Member talked about. Where is that figure coming from, because the Budget is very clear?

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister said the closing date for applications was 3rd August, 2007. Would the hon. Minister consider extending this deadline so that everyone who is eligible can be afforded a chance to apply? Otherwise, this favours only applicants in the urban areas and those who have been given prior information by colleagues with some connections. A slight extension of the deadline will avail a chance to possible applicants in the rural areas who might not get the information early to go to the districts on time.

Professor Lungwangwa: Madam Speaker, the problem has not yet arisen. We shall cross the bridge when we get there. At the moment, the country has a number of community radio stations in various parts of the country, and this information is likely to reach all the corners of the country by the end of today.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Major Chizhyuka (Namwala): Madam Speaker, much as I appreciate that the issue of community schools are best left to the schools, in the light of this development, is there any consideration by the hon. Minister for a certain percentage of the number of teachers to be recruited to be directed at re-enforcing the number of teachers in community schools? If this is not the case, is it not true then that all animals are equal, but others are more equal as said by George Orwell?

Professor Lungwangwa: Madam Speaker, it has been stated in this House before, that some consideration is being given to the deployment of teachers to some community schools. Therefore, that process is taking place in the education sector.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Madam Speaker, I would like to find out what the rationale is behind the introduction of basic schools and the lower cut-off point in basic schools. This is because the quality of education offered in most of the basic schools is very low. Why should the Government reduce the cut-off point in basic schools? Is it for quality or quantity?

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, the point is that we ask questions on points of clarification on the ministerial statement.

Mr Chimbaka (Bahati): Madam Speaker, in accordance with staff establishments, can the hon. Minister clarify how many vacancies are in secondary schools and basic schools?

Professor Lungwangwa: Madam Speaker, what I have with me is a composite set of data that consists of both basic and high schools. It has not been disaggregated into different categories, but if the hon. Member would like, my staff can quickly disaggregate it this afternoon and he can have a data set consisting of vacancies at the high school level and basic school level by tomorrow. 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Sikazwe (Chimbamilonga): Madam Speaker, I would like to find out the criteria that the ministry has been using to allocate the number of teachers to provinces and districts, considering that some provinces and districts are 200 per cent above the others in terms of natural wastage and retirement. Can I get further clarification on this?

Professor Lungwangwa: Madam Speaker, if the hon. Member was attentive, he could have clearly understood the criteria used to arrive at the figures that have been presented. The criteria is very simple, as it is a comparison of vacancies against staff establishments in the schools. This has been articulated in the ministerial statement.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Madam Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister if, one day, in the near or distant future, but mostly, in the near future, the ministry has planned it in such a way that every classroom at the basic level has a teacher and every subject at a secondary school has a teacher. If they have planned for that, when do they think this will happen?

Professor Lungwangwa: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member is aware that teacher supply and deployment is the function of the funding level. Clearly, it is not possible to indicate precisely that on a particular date, we shall have one teacher per class or one teacher per subject at the upper basic or high school levels. This is dependant on the availability of resources and how these resources eventually assist in the enhancement of teacher recruitment and deployment in our education sector.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Ms Masiye (Mufulira): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has said that the Anti-Corruption Commission is going to be involved as part of the agenda to ensure transparency. Is the hon. Minister saying to this House, and the nation at large, that the employment of teachers, in the past, has been marred by corruption? If that is the case, could that be the reason we have had so many graduates on the streets because they could not afford the demands of corruption.

The other issue is that, are the teachers going to be put on the payroll or they have to wait for a year or six months when they are employed? Has this been put in place before they are employed?

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: Madam Speaker, I will start with the last part of the question relating to teachers being put on the payroll. The answer is yes, they will be put on the payroll.

Hon. PF Members: When?

Professor Lungwangwa: Madam Speaker, as for the other part of the question relating to whether there has been corruption in the employment of teachers in the past, well, that is her own conclusion. The position of the ministry is that all the key stakeholders should participate in the recruitment process in order to have a transparent recruitment process which will not raise complaints.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Sejani (Mapatizya): Madam Speaker, we all welcome the hon. Minister’s statement. However, I would like to find out from him why since the phasing out of the Micro-project Unit and the Zambia Social Investment Fund (ZAMSIF), we do not seem to have distinct and recognisable schemes or funds for infrastructure development in our schools. When will the ministry come up with such a fund?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: Madam Speaker, the fund is embodied in the budget of the ministry. There are various parameters of the budget and infrastructure development is part them. The hon. Member is aware of the structure of the education budget which is inclusive of infrastructure development that goes towards construction of new schools, rehabilitation and maintenance of schools. Therefore, that is very clear and identifiable within the budget of the Ministry of Education.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr C. Mulenga (Chinsali): Madam Speaker, we appreciate that teachers to be recruited are going to be put on the payroll. I would like to find out what measures the Government has put in place to ensure that they are put on the payroll immediately after recruitment, taking into consideration the fact that in my constituency, Chinsali, there are still over seventy teachers who are not on the pay roll.

Professor Lungwangwa: Madam Speaker, if what is presented is the truth, then that is most unfortunate, because payroll management in the ministry has been centralised. The recruitment exercise, which goes all the way down to the district level, entails that when teachers are recruited, the District Board Secretary can immediately effect the placement of the teachers on the payroll. Therefore, it is as simple as all that.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka): Madam Speaker, we have heard that by the completion of the second phase, the ministry will have included nearly 10,000 teachers into our establishments. I would like the hon. Minister to tell us and confirm that this is a remedial measure against an improvement to our status because he indicated that the gaps have been created by attrition, resignation or retirement. Could he confirm that this is simply a remedial measure and not an improvement to our status? If he can confirm that, I would like the hon. Minister to tell this House what the anticipated teacher-pupil ratio will be after this process?

Professor Lungwangwa: Madam Speaker, the last part of the question is about the anticipated teacher-pupil ratio after the recruitment exercise has been conducted. I am sure the hon. Members will realise that the computation of that ratio is rather complex and needs more time. In addition to the teachers to be recruited this year, you have to take into account the number of teachers in service, factor that data against the enrolled pupils and arrive at the teacher- pupil ratio. My staff are working on that.

As far as the first part of the question is concerned, whether this is a remedial or corrective measure, the point is that it is not remedial because we have both net and replacement recruitment. Of course, the two address both the attrition level, due to various factors, and the expected new entrants into the system. Therefore, it is both replacement and, at the same time, net recruitment.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

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QUESTIONS

ESSENTIAL HEALTH WORKERS AT UTH

595. Dr Chishimba (Kasama Central) asked the Minister of Health:

(a) what the current establishment for essential health workers was compared to the actual total number required in the following fields at the University Teaching Hospital (UTH):

(i) Medical Doctors;

(ii) Zambia Enrolled Nurses;

(iii) Zambia Enrolled Midwives; and

(iv) Laboratory Technicians;

(b) how many patients were admitted to UTH in 2005;

(c) how many birth deliveries were recorded at UTH in the above year;

(d) how many of the birth deliveries at (c) above were by caesarean section; and

(e) of the health personnel at (a) above, how many were accommodated in houses owned by the ministry.

The Deputy Minister of Health (Dr Puma): Madam Speaker, I wish to inform the House as follows:

                                                   Current Establishment        Approved Establishment

Consultants                                         42                                       80
Senior Registrars                                18                                       58
General Medical Officer                      13                                       25
Registrars                                           28                                       85
Dental Surgeons                                 02                                       02
Senior Res. Med. Officer                    67                                       78
Junior Res. Med. Officer                     65                                       45

Total                                                 235                                     573

Zambia Enrolled Nurses           294 550
Registered Midwives                 28 100
Zambia Enrolled Midwives         37 160
Laboratory Technicians              1  315

On the number of patients admitted to UTH, there were 75,657 patients admitted to University Teaching Hospital in 2005.

There were 11,686 birth deliveries at UTH in 2005.

There were 2,506 caesarean births in 2005 at UTH.

On the health personnel accommodated in houses owned by the ministry, there are 143 medical doctors in UTH institutional houses and 128 nurses in UTH hostels.

The Ministry of Health is further paying housing allowances to health personnel that are not accommodated in institutional houses.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Dr Chishimba: Madam Speaker, going by that critical shortage of medical personnel, as submitted by the hon. Minister, is there any emergency response that the Government intends to put in place to ensure that medical personnel are employed because that is, indeed, a crisis?

Dr Puma: Madam Speaker, as a ministry, we have always mentioned that we recognise the fact that we are actually operating at less than 50 per cent capacity. The starting point was to identify our actual establishment and the numbers that we actually needed. After getting the information from the field, we found that we needed a total of 51,000 of health workers to work at full capacity. Currently, there are around 26,000 health workers.

We went a step further, this year, to include a good budget of about K22 billion for recruitment of new health personnel some time this year. As I am talking now, we have already received Treasury authority to recruit over 5,000 health workers and recruitment has actually started.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Madam Speaker, we have been told in this House several times that the Government is considering putting retired nurses on contract, but we have not seen any advertisement to that effect. When is this Government going to employ retired nurses to cushion the impact of the shortage of personnel in the health sector?

Dr Puma: Madam Speaker, the issues of recruitment are done at various levels. Our district and provincial management levels are involved in the recruitment exercise. In various districts, they are already using the services of retired nurses where need arises. In most of the hospitals, the UTH and Ndola Central Hospital inclusive, some of the staff are actually retired nurses.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

BOREHOLES SUNK IN MWENSE DISTRICT

596. Mr D. Mwila (Chipili) asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing how many boreholes the ministry had sunk in Mwense District in 2007.

The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr Kazonga): Madam Speaker, I wish to inform this august House that the Government has sourced external financial support from the African Development Bank (ADB) and other co-operating partners to sink boreholes in the districts of the Luapula Province, including Mwense. To this effect my ministry has directed all councils in Luapula to submit District Water and Sanitation Plans that will indicate the number of boreholes required in each district. Madam Speaker, this information will be used to determine the equitable distribution of facilities to all districts based on the available funds.

Madam, let me take this opportunity to appeal to all hon. Members of Parliament to fully participate in Full Council Meetings to ensure that the District Water and Sanitation Plans address the needs of the people. In this regard, the Government does not unilaterally determine the number of boreholes to be sunk in the districts. Instead, the councils have this responsibility to work with the communities, identify their needs and plan and budget for the necessary interventions.

These plans and budgets must be approved by the Full Council before submission to the Ministry of Local Government and Housing for consolidation and allocation of resources under the National Rural Water Supply and Sanitation Programme. This is important because resources are never sufficient to meet all the demands in all communities in the seventy-two districts.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr D. Mwila: Madam Speaker, I would like the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing to confirm to this House that JICA did the trials in the Luapula Province and were supposed to start sinking the boreholes in the Luapula Province like they did in the Northern Province. What has happened to that project?

Secondly, what are the future plans that the Government have to sink more boreholes in Mwense because we do not have enough boreholes in Mwense?

The Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mrs Masebo): Madam Speaker, I think the Hon. Deputy Minister has ably articulated the process in which boreholes will be sunk in various districts. What has been indicated here is that firstly, the communities, through the locally elected councils, should plan for their needs. If they feel their district needs 100 boreholes, then it is for them to plan and budget for them. That information must be sent to the ministry.

The role of the ministry is to give technical advice to assist local authorities in mobilising resources for sinking boreholes. As has been indicated, we do not have sufficient resources to meet all the demands of the seventy-two districts. Currently, in the Luapula Province, we have sourced some funds from the African Development Bank and asked the respective councils to tell us, for example, in Mwense, how many boreholes they need. This applies to other districts in the Luapula Province. Once we get the responses, we will look at the resources that we have managed to mobilise and try to allocate them in an equitable manner.

Madam Speaker, JICA had a project under the Ministry of Works and Supply, Ministry of Energy and Water Development and last month, we saw the hon. Minister of Energy and Water Development commissioning those boreholes. Regarding how many boreholes they were, I am not sure.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Chongo (Mwense): Madam Speaker, the JICA project that is being talked about was an agreement between JICA and the Ministry of Energy and Water Development, but the Ministry of Local Government and Housing took over responsibility for the work. The number of boreholes was indicated and pilot projects were undertaken. Why should the ministry start thinking of asking the councils to submit the number of boreholes the require when they already did that besides having a sister ministry where that information can be accessed?

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, the question on JICA is supplementary. As I have indicated, this was a project under the Ministry of Energy and Water Development. As the House may be aware, the function of water supply and sanitation, whether in the rural or urban areas is a function of the Ministry of Local Government and Housing, according to the statutory instrument issued by His Excellency the President on functions of portfolio ministries.

Madam Speaker, this function was initiated by JICA and the Ministry of Energy and Water Development, but later they realised that it was not their function. It was, thus, agreed that this project must now fall under the Ministry of Local Government and Housing. I do not have the details of the new contract with me and the hon. Member would assist if he could ask his own question.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr L. J. Mulenga (Kwacha): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has indicated that they have sourced some resources to sink the boreholes in Luapula. With the resources the hon. Minister has sourced, how many boreholes are going to be sunk? You cannot say you have asked the communities to submit the water plans. How can you do that when you know the cost of sinking a borehole.

Laughter

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, I know that sometimes, there is too much coffee drinking, but let me say that …

Laughter

Mrs Masebo: … when I talk about communities …

Mr L. J. Mulenga: On a point of order, Sir.

Laughter

Mrs Masebo: … the hon. Member should understand that communities mean councils. Councils represent the communities and therefore, they should understand that the word community here simply means councils because they consult the communities on their priorities.

Madam Speaker, what I have said is that the current procedure for development under the Fifth National Development Plan is a bottom-up approach. We do not impose the numbers. Our role now is to raise resources and give technical advice to the local authorities on whatever priority they will have made. If they say they need ten or fifteen boreholes, according to the resources that are available, we shall allocate those resources in an equitable manner, taking into account that Mwense is not Zambia which has seventy-two district councils. Therefore, the number of boreholes to be sunk will depend on the moneys available.

Madam Speaker, at any given time, we do have some money, but it is never enough. Therefore, we still continue to mobilise and so if we ask for the plans and the number of boreholes that they require, every year, not just a one-off arrangement, we are dealing with the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework programme (MTEF) – three terms. We have to know how much money we have this year, next year and the other year and in the next ten years up to 2030 and beyond. There is a need for councils to plan. This entails the Members of Parliament communicating with the people who voted them in to decide on what the priorities are.

I thank you, Madam.

REHABILITATION OF CHIEFS’ PALACES IN CHADIZA

597. Mr Mbewe (Chadiza) asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing:

(a) when the Ministry would rehabilitate the chiefs’ palaces in Chadiza District; and

(b) when the rehabilitation of the water reticulation system from Nsadzu Dam to Chadiza Boma would commence.

Mr Kazonga: Madam Speaker, I wish to inform this august House that there is no Budget provision for rehabilitation of Chiefs’ palaces. The current Government policy is to have the building and renovation of palaces done by the subjects and only have the Government come in to help where need arises.

Madam Speaker, the rehabilitation of the water reticulation system from Nsadzu Dam to Chadiza Boma is not included in the Annual Work Plan for Chadiza District Council. The rehabilitation works will only commence once this project is included in the Annual Work Plan for Chadiza District Council which will facilitate mobilisation of funds. Thus, all projects financed by my ministry are demand driven and work will only commence when funds are made available.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Kasongo (Bangweulu): Madam Speaker, during the election period, the whole nation was made to believe that all chiefs’ palaces were going to be rehabilitated and that in addition to that activity, all the palaces were going to be electrified. Now the hon. Deputy Minister has informed this House that that activity is the preserve of the subjects. Can he reconcile the two statements?

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, I am not aware that there was such a pronouncement. What I am aware about is the statement that we have always given on the Floor of this House on construction and rehabilitation of palaces that the policy that we have currently does not stipulate that we are responsible for rehabilitating palaces. As a result of that, you will note that we do not have a provision in our budget for that activity.

Madam Speaker, it is true that in the past, there were some allocations made to chiefs’ palaces, but it was a one-off allocation. K5 million was given to all the chiefs in 1996. Since then, there has not been any allocation for rehabilitation of chiefs’ palaces. We have said and encouraged subjects to assist their royal highnesses in rehabilitating the palaces. We have indicated on the Floor of this House that some of the cultures have complications because once a chief dies, the palace has to be destroyed. Therefore, it has been difficult for the Government to come up with a straightforward policy on this matter. Suffice to say that the ministry has, so far, developed a draft policy which has addressed that issue. However, the draft policy is yet to go to Cabinet to be adopted as policy and subsequently have legislative backing.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Sikota (Livingstone): Madam Speaker, in view of the fact that chiefs are part of our governance system and are recognised under our law, when will the Government, in spite of some complications in some areas, formulate a deliberate policy for maintaining chiefs’ houses and palaces in the areas where no complications arise as a result of customs?

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, we have developed a draft policy to address these issue. I have just indicated that in the draft policy, issues to do with housing, transport and so on have been articulated, taking into account the cultures and traditions. The chiefs themselves have already gone through this policy and have forwarded it to us. We, as a ministry, are also making our own internal consultations and the policy will be before Cabinet sometime before the end of this year.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Madam Speaker, there is an obvious policy contradiction in what the hon. Minister has reported to this House. On one hand, through the Office of the Vice-President, the Government is embarking on a programme to upgrade villages through the Resettlement Programme. On the other hand, the hon. Minister is suggesting that those same villagers, who need support from the Government, must rehabilitate chief’s palaces. Can I find out from the hon. Minister whether in the draft policy she has referred to, there has been a reconciliation of those two policy statements?

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, there is no contradiction of policy here. On one hand, the hon. Member of Parliament is talking about upgrading villages just as we upgrade slums in towns. This has always been a policy of this Government. We are, however, talking about royal palaces as we know understand them. Yes, when we formulate policies, we take into account all the other sectoral issues that may arise in the same policy.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

DECONGESTION OF KITWE CENTRAL HOSPITAL

598. Mr Nyirenda asked the Minister of Health when the Government would decongest Kitwe Central Hospital.

Dr Puma: Madam Speaker, decongesting Kitwe Central Hospital is an on going process and in order to decongest Kitwe Central Hospital, Kitwe District has taken the following measures:

(i) establishment of short-term admission facilities and maternity services in the following health centres: Kawama, Luangwa, Ndeke, Chimwemwe, Buchi Main, Kwacha and Ipusukilo Health Centres. Further, there are five doctors in the district to run these health centres;

(ii) in addition to that, as a ministry, we are strengthening the referral systems where we encourage and sensitise the community to access health services at the health centre level before going to the hospital; and

(iii) further, there has been expansion of infrastructure to cater for increased population in Kitwe. New health centres have been opened or are in the process of opening, such as Wusakile, Mulenga, Mwaiseni, Twatasha, Chilobwe, Riverside and Kakolo clinics.

Finally, the information available to us shows that, after the above intervention, Kitwe Central Hospital is not as congested as the question suggests.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.{mospagebreak}

Mr Nyirenda: Madam Speaker, arising from the response of the hon. Minister, I would suggest that they build mortuaries in all the centres that have been mentioned as health centres that were constructed.

Madam Speaker: Suggestion. Next question.

NUMBER OF ZAMBIANS AND EXPATRIATES EMPLOYED IN MANAGERIAL JOBS IN THE MINING SECTOR 2007

599. Mr Chanda asked the Minister of Mines and Minerals Development how many Zambians and expatriates were employed in managerial jobs in the mining sector as of January, 2007.

The Deputy Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr M. Mwale): Madam Speaker, there was a total of fifty-five managerial staff employed in the mining sector since January 2007 out of which twenty-two were Zambians and thirty-three were expatriates as follows:

Company                                         No. of Zambians  No. of Expatriates

Konkola Copper Mines Plc                           7                    15
Chibuluma Mines Plc                                    4                    4
Chambishi Metals Plc                                   3                    3
NFC Africa Mining Plc                                  -                     3
Kansanshi Mines Plc                                   6                    3
Mopani Copper Mines Plc                            2                    2
Luanshya Copper Mines Plc                       2                    2
Total                                                           22                  33

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chanda: Madam Speaker, when is this Government going to put a mechanism in place to protect jobs for Zambians, some of which have been taken up by expatriates who are not qualified?

The Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Dr Mwansa): Madam Speaker, the question is rather broad. We are not aware of any expatriates who are not qualified. We think they do not exist. The thirty-three expatriates are well qualified and are doing a very good job in the mining industry. We should understand that there is a worldwide shortage of skills in geology, mining and surveying because of the worldwide metal boom and our inability to train engineers, geologists and all because the mining industry was declining prior to the year 2000 when the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines (ZCCM) was privatised. We eventually stopped training mining engineers. That is why there is a gap of engineering skills in mining and geology. So, these expatriates are qualified to carry out the work they are doing.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chimumbwa (Nchanga): Madam Speaker, in the mining sector, we have seen qualified engineers moved from their professional positions to carry out jobs such as buying sugar and bread. When Zambians complain about the misplacement and ask for positions of manager, we hear that these companies call them Beverage and Maintenance Supplies Managers which is equal to a tea boy. What is the Government doing to reverse this trend?

Dr Mwansa: Madam Speaker, again, the question lacks detail. We do not know of any such misplacement of manpower in the mining industry. If you have the details, bring them to us and we will conduct some investigations, but we do not have that information. If you have it, give it to us. We will be very pleased to investigate and take remedial action.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwenzi): Madam Speaker, I would like to find out how many, out of the thirty-three positions, have since been taken over by Zambians under the same period.

Dr Mwansa: Madam Speaker, the thirty-three positions have not been filled to replace or displace Zambians. These were vacancies in the mining companies because there were no Zambians available to perform the tasks involved. Therefore, the thirty-three did not displace any Zambian qualified engineers, geologists or meteorologists. They were vacancies because the mining companies could not find Zambians to do the jobs. That is why they had to employ the thirty-three from outside.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Kambwili: Madam Speaker, I would like to find out whether the ministry is aware that, indeed, the Zambian managers have got positions, but no authority. They are being used as ponies just to impress the Government that Zambians have managerial jobs.

Dr Mwansa: Madam Speaker, I am not aware, but what I can say is that we are very close to the mining industry. We visit and interact with both expatriate and Zambian managers very regularly. We are yet to hear a complaint of that sort. To the contrary, we are very satisfied with the work that the Zambian managers are doing. We were at Lumwana Mine last week and met separately with the Zambian managers. They expressed satisfaction with what they were doing and how they were liaising with their expatriate counterparts.

The same applies to Mopani Copper Mines Plc. in Livingstone, where we recently interacted with them. No such complaint was brought to our attention. However, if Hon. Kambwili has the specific details, he should, please, bring them to me and we will carry out the investigations jointly with him.

I thank you, Madam.

2001 TO 2006 FORESTRY DEPARTMENT COMPARTMENTS

600. Mr Simama (Kalulushi) asked the hon. Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources:

(a) how many compartments had been harvested from the plantations of the Forest Department from 2001 to 2006; and

(b) how many compartments had been replanted.

The Deputy Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources (Ms Tembo): Madam Speaker, a total of seven compartments were harvested during the period 2001 to 2006, covering twenty-six hectares from the Forestry Department plantations. The details are broken down as follows:

 Year                        Number of Compartments Harvested

2001                                         0
2002                                         0
2003                                         1
2004                                         0
2005                                         6
2006                                         0
 Total                                        7

Madam, during the same period, a total of sixty-nine compartments were planted on a total of 398.8 hectares, broken down as follows:

Year                                Area Planted/hectares

2001                                             24.30
2002                                             28
2003                                             2.5
2004                                             51.2
2005                                             156.7
2006                                             136.10
Total                                             398.80

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Quality!

Mr Simama: Madam Speaker, I would like to find out how many are Pinus Keshiya and how many are Eucalyptus Grandis plants on the harvested and planted compartments.

The Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources (Mr Pande): Madam Speaker, that sounds like a new question. Those are details which can be availed when the hon. Member comes to the office.

I thank you, Madam.

NUMBER AND QUALIFICATIONS OF THE DACs

601. Dr Njobvu (Milanzi) asked the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives:

(a) how many District Agricultural Co-ordinators were currently employed by the ministry; and

(b) how many of those at (a) above held the following qualifications:

(i) a degree;
(ii) a diploma; and
(iii) a certificate

The Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives (Mr Mulonga): Madam Speaker, a total of seventy-two District Agricultural Co-ordinators (DAC) are currently employed by the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives.

Madam, all the seventy-two District Agricultural Co-ordinators in (a) above, are degree holders.

I thank you, Madam.

COMPENSATION OF THE PEOPLE IN CHIEF NABWALYA AND MUKUNGULE’S AREA

602. Mr Malama (Mfuwe) asked the hon. Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources whether there were plans to compensate the people in Chief Nabwalya and Mukungule’s areas whose crops were destroyed by animals every year.

The Deputy Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources (Mr Kaingu): Madam Speaker, the current policy on National Parks and Wildlife Services does not provide for compensation. As a result of this, the Zambia Wildlife Act Authority No. 12 of 1998, does not also provide for such compensation.

Therefore, at the moment, it is not possible to compensate people whose crops have been destroyed by animals anywhere in Zambia. This would only be possible if the law were to be amended to provide for such compensation.

However, this House may wish to know that the current law is based on the principle that people, through the State, own the wildlife. The Zambia Wildlife Authority (ZAWA) is only charged with managing the wildlife resources of this country on behalf of the people. Therefore, based on this principle, the Zambia Wildlife Authority cannot be made to compensate the people who are the owners of the resources.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Sikota: Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister mentioned that the people own the wildlife and, as a result, they cannot be compensated. If, indeed, they own the wildlife, will the hon. Minister then undertake to ensure that the Government directly gives benefits accrued therefrom to the people living around these game parks? This way, as the owners of the animals, they will benefit and not only suffer when the animals destroy their crops, lives and property.

Mr Kaingu: Madam Speaker, actually our ministry, through CRVs empowers the communities. Fifty per cent of the proceeds from the hunting go to the communities and the other 50 per cent is shared between ZAWA and the Government. Actually, some money is given to the communities.

I thank you, Madam.

AGRICULTURAL/MECHANICAL ENGINEERS PRODUCED FROM UNZA AND THEIR LOCAL INVENTIONS

603. Mr Chimbaka (Bahati) asked the Minister of Education:

(a) how many agricultural and mechanical engineers the University of Zambia had produced from inception to date; and

(b) what local inventions had so far been made by the local engineers at (a) above.

The Deputy Minister of Education (Ms Changwe): Madam Speaker, the University of Zambia has produced a total of 723 engineers since its inception, broken down as follows:

(i) 99 in agricultural engineers with the first graduates in the 1989/90 academic year; and

(ii) 624 mechanical engineers with the first graduates in the 1970/71 academic year.

On the question of the innovations, some notable innovations have been made by a number of engineers and technicians, thereby contributing to the industrial advancement of our country’s economy as follows:

Dr. Nicolas Kwendakwema, PhD, an engineer, Moffat S. Mwanza, an engineer and Lloyd Sitenge, a technician innovated the pedal-driven seed treating machine developed in 1993 for COMESA to help small-scale farmers treat seeds with chemicals in order to improve germination rates and preservation.
Dr. Abel W. Tembo, PhD, engineer, unfortunately, he is late, and Lloyd Sitenge, a technician, innovated the Musuku Pulper Machine which was developed in 1996 for the production of pulp from the Musuku fruit for the National Institution for Scientific and Industrial Research (NISIR), Masuku Wine Project.
Professor Stephen Simukanga, PhD, an engineer, Dr. Mukombo J. Tambatamba, PhD, an engineer, Moffat S. Mwanza, an engineer, Mulambwa Imasiku, an engineer and Lloyd Sitenge, a technician who innovated the Lime Stone Mill Machine which was developed for the processing of agricultural lime using a hammer mill in 1997.

Dr. Mukombo J. Tambatamba, Mulambwa Imasiku, Lloyd Sitenge and Olive Samungole, a technician, innovated an Interlocking Block Making Machine that makes stabilised soil cement blocks that interlock. It was developed in 1997.

Dr. Mukombo J. Tambatamba, Mathews Kaonga, an engineer, Mulambwa Imasiku and Olive Samungole innovated a Tumbling Machine which was developed in 2005 for cleaning semi-precious stones, specifically for the mining sector.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Chimbaka: Madam Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister of Education whether, in our country, we have engineers who may at one time invent a motor vehicle for the indigenous Zambian or probably even a cell phone or motor bike. When will that be? If not, what could be the problem?

The Minister of Education (Professor Lungwangwa): Madam Speaker, this is a very interesting question that looks into the future research undertakings of the academic community in our universities. Research into various aspects affecting our society and humanity in general is tied very closely to the research interest of the academic members of staff. Clearly, so far, by way of research, output of our universities is a function of the specialisation and expertise of our academic community. The fact that we do not have inventions along the lines the hon. Member is suggesting is probably because we do not, as yet, have such kind of expertise and that now is a function of training, academic curriculum and research undertakings of the universities. It is not easy to say, in precise terms, when Zambia will come up with a car that is invented or made by indigenous engineers.

I thank you, Madam.

AUDIT SYSTEM FOR QUALITY ASSURANCE OF HEALTH SERVICE

604. Mrs Banda (Chililabombwe) asked the Minister of Health what audit system the ministry had put in place to check the quality assurance of the health service provided to patients.

Dr Puma: Madam Speaker, the Ministry of Health, under the Directorate of Clinical Care and Diagnostic Services, has put in place a unit for quality assurance headed by a quality assurance specialist. The unit is involved in not only the implementation of quality assurance, but also ensuring the provision of equity of access to quality health care as close to the family as possible. The ministry has a project of including safety in the training of health workers on the use of sterile needles and syringes to minimise transmission of infections.

Furthermore, the Government has provided for the safe disposal of needles through the provision to health facilities of safe disposal containers. The ministry has also put up incinerators in almost every district for the safe management of waste disposal. In addition, the ministry has a Monitoring and Evaluation Unit under the Directorate of Planning to monitor programmes. The provincial teams visit each district once every quarter to assess the performance and quality of health services provided by the districts. Similarly, the district health teams visit each health centre once every quarter to assess the performance and quality of health services provided. Standardised performance assessment tools have been developed by the ministry and these are used by the provincial and district teams during the assessment of the health facilities.

During the assessment, among other things, the teams look at the availability of drugs, medical and surgical equipment, management capacity, infrastructure, human resource, transport and quality of service provided at that level.

Finally, the vision of the ministry is to provide Zambians with equity of access to cost effective quality health care as close to the family as possible. The desire is to build effective leadership, accountability, partnership and sustainability. Therefore, in 1992, the Government of Zambia introduced Health Reforms in order to address the problem of poor quality of health care services in the country.

I thank you, Madam.

Mrs Banda: Madam Speaker, how often does the ministry headquarters get feedback from various institutions?

Dr Puma: Madam Speaker, the whole process of assessment starts at the district level. Every district goes to visit each of the health centres in the country once every quarter of the year. At the end of the quarter, officers from the provincial offices go to every district to assess how the services are being provided. In addition to assessing how the district is working in the province, one or two health centres are also assessed just to confirm what the district is actually doing. Once that information has been compiled, twice in a year, the provincial health directors bring information to the headquarters so that we come up with new plans on the way forward.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Madam Speaker, I would like to find out what the ministry has put in place to ensure that, on a daily basis, health centres get complaints they get from patients and incorporate them in quality assurance so that they provide proper health care.

Dr Puma: Madam Speaker, every health facility should have a suggestion box so that patients are able to post their suggestions or complaints. Therefore, the health centre management is able to get the communities’ comments. So, when the officers from the district go to the health centres, one of the questions asked is how many letters, complaints or compliments were received in the suggestion box. That way, we are able to get an input from the communities and also ensure that their needs are met.

In addition, at the health centre level, we have committees run by communities in collaboration with health centres. During meetings, there is interaction between the two groups to ensure that community needs are actually addressed at the health centre level.

I thank you, Madam.

BOREHOLES SUNK IN CHAMA NORTH FROM 2001 TO 2007

605. Mr Chilembo (Chama North) asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing:

(a) how many boreholes were sunk in Chama North Parliamentary Constituency from 2001 to 2006; and

(b) how many boreholes would be sunk in 2007 and where.

Mr Kazonga: Madam Speaker, I wish to inform this august House that:

(a) thirty-seven  boreholes were sunk in twelve wards from 2001 to 2006.

(b) 110 boreholes will be sunk in the same twelve wards as follows:

Name of Ward                         Number of Boreholes to be Sunk

Chisunga                                                   15
Kalinkhu                                                    10
Kamphemba                                              08
Luangwa                                                  08
Manthepa                                                  07
Mazonde                                                   07
Mbazi                                                        08
Mpalansenga                                            10
Muchinga                                                  12
Mwalala                                                    10
Ndunda                                                     10
Nkhankha                                                  05
Total                                                        110 

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Chilembo: Madam Speaker, I would like to know when the work will start as the rainy season is coming soon and this has been the reason the work has sometimes not been undertaken.

Mr Kazonga: Madam Speaker, as indicated in the response, we plan to do this work in 2007. The distribution table shows how the boreholes will be sunk in different wards. So, it is planned for 2007. We shall do our best to ensure that it is done within this year.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Bonshe (Mufumbwe): Madam Speaker, some of the areas that have been earmarked for drilling boreholes are not accessible and, as such, the companies that drill the boreholes may say they are not going to manage. For example, in my constituency, thirty-one sites have been identified as inaccessible by motor vehicle. So, what is going to happen to such places?

Mr Kazonga: Madam Speaker, this programme is based on contracts. If one has been awarded a contract to provide a particular service, it must be provided. When a contractor is unable to provide the service because an area is not accessible, this should be reported so that we can look at that issue independently. So, what is important is to communicate. If there is a problem in your constituency, as you have indicated, report it so that we can take appropriate action because these contracts are given to different contractors to do a job and it must be done.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Madam Speaker, the response that was given by the hon. Minister showed that in six years, thirty-seven boreholes have been drilled, giving a rate of five boreholes per year. Now the hon. Minister is saying that this year, they have intentions of drilling 110 boreholes, but there is no corresponding increase in the budget for water supply. Can the hon. Minister explain where this ambitious plan is coming from and how it is going to be financed?

Mr Kazonga: Madam Speaker, with regard to the number of boreholes not corresponding with the resources that have been allocated, I wish to confirm to the House that, at least, we have seen an increment in the resources to our sector this year. In terms of proportion, the resources may not be exactly equal to the programme, but all the same, we are determined to work. What is important is that, as a Government, we are committed to ensuring that people have access to clean and safe drinking water and good sanitation. This is not an issue for the Government alone, but non-governmental organisations are also welcome to assist us in providing good water supply and sanitation.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr V. Mwale (Chipangali): Madam Speaker, the hon. Member of Parliament for Chama North asked when the boreholes would be sunk in his area. It is clear that it is this year, but when exactly?

Mr Kazonga: Madam Speaker, I cannot specify when this will be, but it will be by the end of the year. When funds are made available, we shall not hesitate to move into action. This is dependent on the availability of funds, but we have planned to have that number of boreholes this year.

I thank you, Madam.
 
Mr Chongo: Madam Speaker, a similar question to the one asked by the hon. Member of Parliament for Chama to which the hon. Minister said that he had sent word to every council to submit information was raised on this Floor. Given that the programme of sinking 110 boreholes in Chama is already in place, where is the rationale behind that when the information has not yet reached in some areas and why should Mwense be sidelined? Is it because Chama is in the east while Mwense is in the north?
Laughter

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, the answer that was given for Mwense is slightly different from the answer that has been given for Chama and Chadiza. It has nothing to do with it being from the east or north, but resources.

The budgetary allocation for the Eastern Province is based on what is already provided for in this year’s Budget and we have the information to that effect. For Mwense, it is different because these are new resources that we mobilised through a loan from the African Development Bank (ADB).

You will note that the water supply and sanitation projects shift from one province to the other. Last year or the other year, we started drilling boreholes in the Central Province.

Madam Speaker, to answer the hon. Member of Parliament for Kabwata who wondered if we were being over ambitious that we drilled so many boreholes the other year, but are now talking about drilling about 100 boreholes, no, we are not. It just depends on the resources available.

Madam Speaker, in the Central Province, we drilled over 2,000 boreholes in two years only because the resources were sourced, again, from the African Development Bank. This administration has been very committed to the issue of water supply and sanitation vis-à-vis resource requirement. During the last five years, we drilled several boreholes and we shall continue to do that. Also, as the hon. Deputy Minister said, it is a cross cutting issue.

We expect that when the Ministry of Health, for example, sets up health posts in the rural areas, we should assist them by sinking boreholes in those health posts. As for the Ministry of Education, when they build schools, if it is in the rural areas, they should also do something in the water sector. This is why we have come up with the Make Zambia Clean Programme, which is multi-sectoral.

The issue of water is cardinal. Again, we are asking everybody, including Members of Parliament to channel part of the Constituency Development Funds to improving the water supply situation in their constituencies in places such as health posts and the education sector.

I thank you, Madam

TV LICENCE FEE DEFAULTERS

606. Mr Ntundu (Gwembe) asked the Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services:

(a) how many television owners had been arrested and convicted for not paying TV licence fees since the introduction of the fees; and

(b) whether there were any plans to revise the TV licence fees upwards.

The Deputy Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services (Mr D. Phiri): Madam Speaker, I wish to state that only one person from Nampundwe by the name of Mr Nyambe Sitwala has been arrested, prosecuted and convicted by the courts of law for not paying the TV licence fees since the introduction of the fees.

However, there have been several other individuals and institutions that have been sent warning letters, pending being reported to the police.

As regards to part (b) of the question, at K3,000 per month …

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

Mr D. Phiri: Madam Speaker, when business was suspended, I had just started replying to the question raised by the hon. Member for Gwembe.

Therefore, the response continues. At K3,000 per month, this fee is too small. It has been the wish and desire of the ministry and, indeed, of the Zambia National Broadcasting Services, (ZNBC) to have the TV licence fees increased. However, there are some issues that the ministry is still looking at before a Statutory Instrument can be issued to increase the TV licence fees.

Let me also take this opportunity to explain that the fees partially contribute towards the cost of running television, which, as hon. Members of Parliament will agree, has now expanded to more rural district centres. In order to sustain the expanded television service and provide good programmes, ZNBC will need increased revenue from advertising as well as licence fees.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Ntundu: Madam Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister the other value that the TV licence fees have added, especially to the programmes, in that we are still seeing programmes, like on the news, where it is always His Excellency the President, his wife or a Minister.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services (Mr Mulongoti): Madam Speaker, let me also clarify one point. The fees are not being paid by everybody across the country. It is just those who are along the line of rail who are required to pay. However, the President of the Republic, wherever he is, is on duty. Therefore, whether you feel happy or unhappy about it, he must be covered because he is performing national duties.

Sometimes, journalists like following certain personalities. If they think by following the First lady, they will get a lot of mileage, we cannot blame them.

As far as we are concerned, the K3,000 fees have gone some way in improving the programmes and besides, it is a starting point. This is why I have said that the rural areas are not levied. It is only the urban areas which are levied. It is hoped that at some point, when everybody will be paying some reasonable fees, it will be possible to improve on the quality of films. You may wish to note that these films are not made in Zambia. They are ordered from abroad and the cost of paying for them is quite enormous.

I thank you, Madam

Mr Kapeya (Mpika Central): Madam Speaker, Zambians who own television sets pay K3,000.00 as license fees even though they do not watch the ZNBC signal. What is ZNBC doing to improve its TV signal in areas where they do not watch their signal? Take for example, Mpika, where I come from, there are facilities for TV, but only people in a radius of four kilometres from the transmitters watch ZNBC TV. Those of us who are ten kilometres away from the transmitters do not get the ZNBC TV signal. Could the hon. Minister inform this House when ZNBC will improve the signal countrywide?

Mr Mulongoti: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member for Mpika Central is aware that Zambia is a developing nation. We are not a developed nation, but developing. We are in the process of improving these services wherever we can. In any case, having been a member of staff in that organisation, he is a little more conversant with why these problems are there. If he is in a position to help us on how quickly we can improve these services, we will welcome his advice.

I thank you, Madam.

Laughter

Mr Sikota: Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister stated that people in the rural areas do not pay these licensing fees. I would like to find out from him if that statement, indeed, is true, why the unfortunate Mr Sitwala of Itezhi-tezhi was prosecuted?

Mr Mulongoti: Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister did not say Itezhi-tezhi, but Nampundwe and, in any case, the hon. Member of Parliament for Livingstone knows very well that this Mr Sitwala, who is his brother, was very difficult.

Under the law, there is a provision that besides being prosecuted, a person can be persuaded to pay. When a person pays willingly, there is no need to take one to court. However, this cousin of mine from Nampundwe chose to be a little more difficult, leaving no option, but to take him to court.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr C. K. B. Banda SC. (Chasefu): Madam Speaker, the question to this hon. Minister is when his ministry will improve the signal in areas such as Mpika and other parts of the country such as Lundazi which have had a terrible quality of signal.

Mr Mulongoti: Madam Speaker, I referred to the fact that we are a developing nation. In Lundazi where the hon. Member for Chasefu comes from, TV reception is not the only problem they have, but roads, bridges and so on. As soon as we have resources, we will do everything we can about the signal.

In any case, we have the Fifth National Development Plan in which we are making an effort to ensure that we are able to reach all parts of Zambia. I would like to assure the hon. Member that it is not intentional, but the limit that we have in resources has made it difficult for us to do that. However, when it is possible, we shall endeavor to do it.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Kanyanyamina (Kanchibiya): Madam Speaker, since people are paying TV licence fees, how is the hon. Minister motivating the hard-working journalists who risk their lives travelling with hon. Ministers and the President to relay news to the nation? Are they getting a perk out of that money?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulongoti: Madam Speaker, conditions of service for workers cannot be tied to one specific group of people who travel with hon. Ministers. Every member of staff at ZNBC makes a contribution and as we consider remuneration, we are mindful of the fact that even a sweeper or driver contributes to the success of the corporation. We have sufficient resources to enable them to follow hon. Ministers, but at the same time, we have a responsibility to ensure that the other members of staff are also taken care of.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.{mospagebreak}

GRADERS FOR RURAL AREAS

607. Mr Chazangwe (Choma Central) asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing when the Government would procure graders for rural areas in order to improve feeder roads in agricultural areas.

Mr Kazonga: Madam Speaker, I wish to inform this august House that the Government has a programme to procure graders to be used by local authorities. However, the Government has applied for a loan from the Chinese Government to purchase road rehabilitation equipment.

The programme of procuring graders for every council in this country will take long and, therefore, it has been decided to procure road rehabilitation equipment that will be pooled at the provincial level for use by all the councils. As funding improves, more graders and other road rehabilitation equipment will be added to this pool of equipment.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Chazangwe: Madam Speaker, since there are no funds and no plans to acquire graders in all the councils in the country, can the hon. Minister inform this august House when this Government will consider the allocation of fuel to grade these roads since councils have no funds and no cash for their operations.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kazonga: Madam Speaker, first of all, let me correct the impression that has been created by the question raised by the hon. Member of Parliament for Choma Central. The Government has long-term plans to ensure that all our local authorities have graders, but this equipment requires substantial financial resources. As step number one, the Government is trying to mobilise resources so that in the long run, every council can have a grader, but we want to start at the provincial level where all the councils in that particular province can have access to that particular pool of equipment for rehabilitation and other works.

However, as already indicated, this is very expensive equipment and may take a bit of time, but we are committed that in the end, we are going to have graders in all the local authorities. Therefore, as a starting point, we shall equip the provincial headquarters. Then, these councils will have access to this equipment as pool equipment and thereafter, we can go to the district level. That is our direction. We know we are here and so now, we want to go up there in a number of years.

With regard to the fuel that you raised in your supplementary question, it is part of the road responsibility within the local authorities. Our local authorities, as indicated last week and this week, are road authorities. They plan for the roads. If that particular activity is supposed to be undertaken and is a priority in the district, it must be included in the plan, and then, in turn, submitted to the Road Development Agency.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Mooya (Moomba): Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that the US$39 million, which is a loan from China is enough to cater for seventy-two graders because one grader costs US$200,000? If you multiply US$200,000 by the seventy-two districts, it comes to US$14 million, leaving a balance of US$25 million.

Mr Kazonga: Madam Speaker, our ministry is aware of the cost of these graders. That is why I indicated that we were able to estimate the cost of the graders for all the district councils. However, we said that we could start with the provincial headquarters. We have estimated the cost of the graders and what the resource envelope can possibly be within the next couple or few of years. As we talk about mobilising these resources, we are aware of the cost and we hope we can mobilise as much resources as we can, through all these efforts.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

NATIONAL PPROVIDENT FUND AND NATIONAL PENSIONS SCHEME AUTHORITY SUSPENSE ACCOUNTS

609. Mr Kapeya (Mpika Central) asked the Minister of Labour and Social Security:

(a) how much money was currently in the NAPSA suspense accounts of the following organisations;

(i) former NPF;

(ii) NAPSA; and

(b) who benefited from the money in the suspense account since the beneficiaries were not identified.

The Deputy Minister of Labour and Social Security (Mr Liato): Madam Speaker, the amount of money currently in the suspense account of the former Zambia National Provident Fund (ZNPF) is K15.2 billion. The National Pensions Scheme Authority (NAPSA) does not have a suspense account.

Madam Speaker, the suspense account exists for members of the scheme because it is simply a holding account for accounting transactions in transit to members’ accounts. There are some cases where employers submit returns on behalf of their members, but with incomplete details. In order to satisfy the double entry accounting requirement, the employer’s account is debited and instead of the credit going to the members account, it goes to the suspense account as a temporary holding account for the purpose of balancing the entries. Amounts in the suspense accounts are credited to the member’s account when the details are supplied by the employer or when they are reversed from the suspense account upon the members claiming the benefit.

Madam Speaker, at some point, the suspense account was K23 billion, but it has since been reduced to K15 billion, after a process of reversals was followed.

Madam Speaker, in short, I would say that the members benefit from the suspense account of the ZNPF. Therefore, the interest accrued on the suspense account is given back to the members. That interest is used to pay pensions and benefits, which is the core business of NAPSA.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Kapeya: Madam Speaker, could the hon. Minister inform this House when the anomaly of failing to credit the contributions to the rightful accounts will come to an end, especially with the computer technology in place today.

The Minister of Labour and Social Security (Mr Mukuma): Madam Speaker, we have shown in our response that the suspense account is necessary because of the incomplete information that we get from employers. This process of balancing and reconciling the account is an on going process and as soon as all the details are obtained from the employers, there is no need for this suspense account. It only exists because sometimes, NAPSA does not get the necessary information from the employers.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Ntundu: Madam Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister why members who claim their moneys from this suspense account are paid minimal interests. I also would like to find out whether the Government has any plans to revise this interest upwards.

Mr Mukuma: Madam Speaker, the beneficiaries of the Zambia National Provident Fund used to get fixed contributions of their own plus the contributions from the employers. They were not indexed to inflation. Therefore, many of them, at the time of retirement, got a lump sum of money. At that time, the lump sum of money was two-thirds what had accrued to them. The amount that they continued to get thereafter was only one-third, which was a very small amount. Therefore, the interest paid on the balance is naturally very small.

I thank you, Madam Speaker. 

Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Madam Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minster whether there are some companies which have not been remitting the members’ contributions to NAPSA. If so, is the Government among the employers who have not been remitting the members’ contributions to NAPSA?

Mr Mukuma: Madam Speaker, yes, from time to time, we do experience a situation where the employers fail to submit their contributions to NAPSA. That is why NAPSA has got inspectors. They knock on the doors of the employers who have not submitted the members’ contributions. Where an employer is persistently defaulting, we normally charge some fine on the employer. The employer will finally pay the contribution plus the fine. I have not come across a case where the Government has failed to pay the contributions.

I thank you, Madam Speaker

PEOPLE KILLED BY CROCODILES IN MWANDI AND KALONGOLA

610. Mr Mwangala (Nalolo) asked the Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources:

(a) how many people were killed by crocodiles in the following places from 2002 to 2005:

(i) Mwandi in Sesheke District; and

(ii) Kalongola in Shangombo District;

(b) what measures the ministry had taken to minimise the loss of lives in the two districts; and

(c) whether the Government would compensate the families who lost their beloved ones.

Mr Kaingu: Madam Speaker, six people were reportedly killed by crocodiles in Mwandi, Sesheke District, between the period of 2002 and 2005. Eleven people were reported to have been killed in Kalongola, in Shang’ombo District in the same period.

In order to minimise crocodile attacks, the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources, through the Zambia Wildlife Authority (ZAWA), has embarked on an educational and awareness campaign on the importance of wildlife among communities living along the banks of these rivers. This, in turn, provides employment opportunities and ultimately enhances the standard of their lives. 

Further, I wish to inform this House that reports concerning problem crocodiles have been received and ZAWA has mobilised officers to control these animals by either capturing or killing them. In order to enhance control operations on problem animals, ZAWA continues to carry out training of control hunters and these are stationed in critical areas.

Madam Speaker, the current policy on National Parks and Wildlife Services does not provide for compensation. As a result of this, the Zambia Wildlife Act, No. 12 of 1998, does not provide for such compensation.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mwangala: Madam Speaker, considering the  increase in  the population of reptiles in our rivers and lagoons, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister if, for the safety of the people, there are any plans by the Government for annual cropping of the reptiles, as was done in the past.

Mr Kaingu: Madam Speaker, my ministry operates through ZAWA on issues related to animals in this country. Therefore, it is through ZAWA that we undertake all works that involve animals.

The infestation of crocodiles in our rivers is quite worrying. It is for this reason that we are encouraging people to venture into the business of crocodile farming. I would like to appeal to hon. Members of Parliament to go into crocodile farming …

Laughter

Mr Kaingu: … so that we can minimise the number of crocodiles in our rivers. Further more, wherever there is a problem, ZAWA has stationed men on site to try and get rid of the crocodiles which give problems to human beings.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Sinyinda (Senanga): Madam Speaker, I would like to find out when cropping last took place in these two areas.

In the same vein, I would like to find out whether the Government has got an immediate, deliberate programme to reduce the number of reptiles in the rivers in this country because this has become a menace. Does the Government contemplate putting in place a deliberate programme to protect the people from these reptiles?

Mr Pande: Madam Speaker, Zambia is a signatory to the Convention on International Trade for Endangered Species (CITIS), which includes crocodiles. For us to crop the crocodiles at the moment, we need permission from CITIS, and to acquire this permission, we need to know the number of crocodiles in the country. Therefore, the next step for us to take is conduct a census of the crocodiles in the country.

Madam Speaker, to avoid the CITIS route at the moment, we are collecting eggs of crocodiles, through ZAWA, in areas that we think are infested with crocodiles.

Secondly, those in crocodile farming have been allocated areas such as the Bangweulu, Luangwa and the Zambezi so that apart from collecting eggs, they can capture the crocodiles live to take to their farms. Going by the statistics that have been given, this trend has been increasing. In 2003, we captured 135 crocodiles and the number has increased to 935 crocodiles this year.

Additionally, as explained by the hon. Deputy Minister, there is an awareness campaign that is going around, through ZAWA, to the people who live along the river banks. ZAWA has also employed special hunters to control problem crocodiles and other animals.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

REHABILITATION AND INSPECTION OF OLD GWEMBE BUILDINGS

611. Mr Ntundu asked the Minister of Works and Supply:

(a) when the old Boma buildings in Gwembe, which were currently being used by various Government departments would be rehabilitated; and

(b)    when the buildings in (a) above were last inspected.

Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Speaker, the Ministry of Works and Supply under its strategic plan of 2006 to 2010, objective (2), is mandated to effectively manage the Government’s property in order to ensure accountability, maintenance and prolonged life.

Madam Speaker, in order to realise the above objective, the Ministry of Works and Supply, through the Director of Buildings, has drawn up a programme of inspecting all Government buildings to assess their physical status this year. Recommendations for rehabilitations or restoration of the old Boma buildings in Gwembe will be made after these inspections and evaluations have been undertaken.

Further, budgeting for maintenance, rehabilitation or restoration of the Government buildings has been made by individual ministries or departments that are occupying the properties. However, the Ministry of Works and Supply, in its quest to effectively manage Government property, is formulating a maintenance policy for the Government of the Republic of Zambia (GRZ) buildings, which will act as a guide on maintenance and buildings for users, maintenance officers and decision makers.

Madam Speaker, the last time the old Boma buildings in Gwembe District were inspected was in March, 2007.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Ntundu: Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that if nothing is done soon, he will hear of a calamity in Gwembe?

Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Speaker, I was trying to hide under the tusk when my brother was pointing a finger at me as he was asking a question.

Madam Speaker, we are aware and we are doing something about it.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mooya: Madam Speaker, I would like to know if the policy on maintenance will be the same as the policy on rehabilitation.

Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Speaker, thank very much for that question from Hon. Mooya. Yes, the policy will be the same

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

ELECTRIFICATION OF LUKWESA HIGH SCHOOL IN MWENSE

613. Mr Chongo asked the Minister of Education when Lukwesa High School in Mwense Parliamentary Constituency would be electrified.

Ms Changwe: Madam Speaker, I would like to inform the House that the electric poles have already been mounted. We are just waiting for ZESCO to put up a transformer. Therefore, as soon as that is done, the school will be lit.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

ALLOCATION OF FUNDS TO EMPOWER WOMEN

614. Ms Kapata (Mandevu) asked the Minister of Gender and Women in Development when funds to specifically empower women would be allocated.

Ms Mulasikwanda stood up.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Gender and Women in Development (Ms Mulasikwanda): Madam Speaker, the Gender in Development Division (GIDD) used to disburse grants on a pilot basis to the women groups in need as way back as 1999 and 2000. The disbursement was done in collaboration with the Non-Governmental Organisation Co-ordinating Council (NGOCC) in partnership with the United Nations Development Programme (UNDP) through a basket funding, where a number of co-operating partners pooled financial resources.

The grants were meant to be used as a revolving fund for community-based organisations throughout all the nine provinces of our country. However, only a few organisations benefited, as the funding was limited and the capacity for the Community-Based Organisations (CBOs) to return the loan was not there. Furthermore, GIDD did not have the required capacity to fully implement the project and as such, the project could not be sustained.

Madam Speaker, on the other hand, the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services gives out small grants to women who need economical empowerment. This year alone, about K1 billion has been allocated for this purpose. However, these efforts have not been enough, as women’s socio-economic well being keeps deteriorating. Therefore, it has been realised that a specific fund be allocated for this venture.

In this regard, I cannot say exactly when the funds to specifically empower women will be allocated. However, GIDD is currently working out modalities on how to have a specific national fund for the empowerment of women. The consultative meetings are in progress and we only sealed the finalisation on Monday. Similar meetings are in progress at the Ministry of Finance and National Planning and other stakeholders. It may be necessary to undertake study tours to countries such as Mali and India where this fund has been successful. This is with a view to learning from them in order to ensure smooth implementation in Zambia.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Ms Kapata (Mandevu): Madam Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister when her ministry is going to enact new laws to remove this gender gaps and inequalities in women’s education and livelihood because 80 per cent of the female population in Zambia is illiterate.

Ms Mulasikwanda: Madam Speaker, first of all, I would like to thank you for that question. In fact, I should have mentioned this before I read my answer to you.

I am glad that I am quite consistent in these questions on behalf of the women. As for me, it gives me much pleasure …

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Mulasikwanda: … to see that there are women who are also committed and passionate about the welfare of fellow women in terms of empowerment.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! Quality!

Ms Mulasikwanda: Let me say that we believe that the best economic sustainability for women must be based on a sound education, hence the promotion of education for the girl child. Once we have acquired this, we shall know that even these other projects we are coming up with sometime in September/October this year, will be sustained.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Rev. Sampa-Bredt: Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister is saying that the consultative meetings are on course. I would like to know the stakeholders who are being consulted.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Mulasikwanda: Madam Speaker, as you may be aware, the stakeholders are the United Nations, UNDP, UNICEF, Norway and us as a Government.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Mr Chanda: Madam Speaker, in view of the many calls for gender balance, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister if she has a deliberate policy in place to have a lot of women working underground.

Ms Mulasikwanda: Madam Speaker, could the hon. Member repeat his question. I did not get his question because there was a lot of noise.

Thank you, Madam Speaker.

______{mospagebreak}

MOTION

LEAVE TO INTRODUCE A PRIVATE MEMBERS’ BILL

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that in accordance with the Nation Assembly Standing Orders No. 98. (2) (a), this House grants leave for the introduction of a Private Member’s Bill entitled “The Anti-Corruption Commission (Amendment) Bill, 2007.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Mr Chota (Lubansenshi): Madam Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, I am greatly indebted to you for allowing me to move this very important, yet non-controversial Motion.

Madam, in presenting a similar motion last Friday, I stated that we hon. Members of Parliament, needed to provide leadership in the fight against corruption. What I meant was that in performing our parliamentary functions, we must be alive to the fact that corruption must be defeated if this, our dear country, is to prosper. We ought to stump out corruption to improve the lives and welfare of the people we represent. We must ensure that the laws that we enact and the budgets that we approve have provisions to prevent, detect, punish and eradicate corruption. We must take particular interest in checking for corruption in the ministerial reports that we scrutinise and we must be seen to lead exemplary lives ourselves.

Madam, at this point, allow me to commend all hon. Members of Parliament for supporting the Friday motion.

Now that leave was granted for me to present the Ministerial and Parliamentary Code of Conduct (Amendment) Bill, I can safely say that we have made progress in removing the log from our eyes. It should now be possible for us to attempt removing the specks in the eyes of others who are not here.

Madam Speaker, everyday, as we peer through the pages of our newspapers, we are confronted with news about corruption. Every year, the Auditor-General reports huge amounts of money as having been misappropriated. Numerous are the reports that money was paid out to contractors for a road not worked on, …

Mr Mtonga: Zoona!

Mr Lubinda: … or for a clinic that is none existent. Billions of tax payers’ money has been used to buy drugs that either do not get to the patients, that are unfit for human consumption or are just outright expired.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr D. Mwila: Shame!

Mr Lubinda: Money that should have been used to build new schools, hospitals and rural health centres is reported stolen every so often. How often do we hear of teachers’ salaries going missing or money being paid to food suppliers for supplying air? How not shocking it is when we hear that you cannot get a Government contract unless you oil the palm of the authorising Government officers!

Madam, some have estimated that close to one third of our national revenue is stolen from the Government on an annual basis.
The following four questions, therefore, beg answers.

(a) where are such colossal amounts of money stockpiled;

(b) how is the Government’s money stolen and who is involved;

(c) we know about the money being stolen, but why is the trend not ending; and

(d) what should be done to stop the scourge?

My contention is that some, but not all this money is hidden in safe havens outside the country.

Mr Mtonga: Zoona!

Mr Lubinda: Most of it has gone into building some of the grandiose mansions that we see sprawling Lusaka and other cities in Zambia. Some of it has gone to purchasing the most recent models of Mercedes Benz cars that are congesting the streets. Some has gone to paying for shares on the stock exchange while some of it has gone to our insatiable appetite for luxurious living.

Mr Mtonga: Shame!

Mr Lubinda: Is this not the reason for such a wide gap between the haves and the have-nots in our country? Is this not the reason while the majority are living in mud and pole houses, a few have three or more mansions to their names?

Madam Speaker, I am not against people making money. Far from it! As a matter of fact, as a country, we need money magnets, and a lot of them for that matter for this country to develop. Obviously, we cannot share poverty, but can share wealth! Nonetheless, money magnets must make money genuinely and not through defrauding the State. That is where my concern lies.

Madam and hon. Members, I wish to submit that the Government’s money is stolen not behind the cover of night, but in broad daylight through cartels of the very people who are charged with the responsibility of safeguarding it.

Mr Mtonga: Zoona!

Mr Lubinda: Major and sophisticated syndicates are robbing us of our hard-earned revenues. They are so intricately intertwined across ministries and departments and the private sector to an extent that it is not easy to break their chain. These are often the affluent and influential – the so-called untouchables in our society.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: There is no doubt that for Government funds to be misappropriated, officers in charge of controlling the movement of money are involved. A person from outside, who has no access to Government resources, cannot possibly misappropriate Government’s money. In saying this let me not be heard to be saying that all controlling officers are thieves or that any particular officer is a culprit. Suffice to say though that some must have a hand in it.

It is my considered view that a number of measures ought to be taken in order to stop corruption. Some of these measures are provided for in the Bill that I propose to present. Hon. Members, I cannot claim that only by these measures, we shall end corruption. My proposition is that these measures will be a major step in the direction of success.

Madam, let me turn to the objectives of the Bill that I propose that are as follows:

(a) to provide for senior officers to submit, to the Chief Justice, declarations of assets and liabilities at the time of engagement and then annually, thereafter, and at the time of termination of engagement;

The officers to be involved are those from the rank of Director and above and senior accounting staff in a public institution or parastatal organisations or a corporate body in which the Government has financial interests.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, hon. Members, if you make it difficult to invest stolen money, its attractiveness is reduced. Only the daring few will want to invest money in the name of a colleague and only a daring thief will accept that someone else’s ill-gotten wealth is invested in their name lest they are caught with it.

(b) the second objective is to compel all senior officers to make declarations of interest in a contract that is made or proposed to be made by the Government. By so doing, we shall allow entrepreneurship amongst the people. It is not the intention of the Bill to stop innovativeness or entrepreneurship. On the contrary, the Government shall regulate the amount of insider trading that is currently taking place in the Government procurements processes; and

(c) thirdly, the Bill is to compel the Anti-Corruption Commission to check the validity and accuracy of all declarations. This aims at checking that falsehoods in declarations are speedily checked and if they are genuine errors of commission or omission, they are corrected promptly, but if there are deliberate, they are punished in accordance with relevant statutes. Obviously, this will call for increased capacity at the Anti-Corruption Commission and I wish to assure hon. Members of this House that this has been taken care of.

My colleagues, undeniably, these measures are bound to make us unpopular with the targeted officers. However, it is nobler to be unpopular while doing the right thing than to be popular for standing by, watching the lives of Zambians being wasted away at the hands of greedy people.

In case some argue that this is a very notorious motion, let me inform the House that the African Union Convention for the Prevention and Combating of Corruption and the United Nations Convention Against Corruption, both of which were ratified by the Government on 7th January 2007, have similar provisions. Even some African countries have already enacted such laws. As a matter of fact, some of the laws even prescribe for the declaration of assets and liabilities of spouses and children of prescribed officers. I decided not to go to that extent at this stage so that we develop our routines and systems organically. A word of caution is that soon and very soon, the Zambian people shall demand that that too be enacted. Therefore, to try and hide assets in family members’ names will be, but a temporary measure.

For the information of the House and the nation at large, we, in the African Parliamentary Network Against Corruption and our friends at Transparency International Zambia as well as at the Anti-Corruption Commission, are to strategise on how the Anti- Corruption Commission shall check that any assets transferred between the time that leave is granted and the time of declarations are traced and accounted for. If people would like to start transferring assets now in anticipation of this Bill, then they ought to be informed that the Anti-Corruption Commission is already at work.

In which case, Madam Speaker, it is imprudent to hide assets now because they will be found out when the Anti-Corruption Commission scrutinises the declarations. Madam Speaker, I am aware that all my colleagues in this House hate corruption with a strong passion and I know that they are itching to contribute to the debate of this important Motion and I should, therefore, give them space to do so. However, as I conclude, allow me to share my personal conviction. It is vanity to bequeath to your children a glass house when their neighbours live in grass-thatched houses.

Madam, with these words, I wish to call upon all hon. Members to rise to this occasion by supporting this, theirs and the people of Zambia’s Motion.

I thank you, Madam.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later.

Mr Chota: Now, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, in supporting the Motion, I would like to remind the hon. Members about the reports of the Auditor-General showing theft of huge amounts of money in the Public Service year in and year out. The reports show rampant corruption in the Civil Service involving the ranks of directors upwards.

This Bill, hon. Members, is your chance to show good governance and let the Civil Service know that corruption will not be tolerated by this House. Madam Speaker, looting of public resources in this country has affected all services and led to huge losses through fraud, theft, and embezzlement as per Auditor-General’s reports. There are also reduced resources available for public services, resulting in collapsed infrastructure, poor sanitation and housing; lack of quality education and lack of quality health care.

Madam Speaker, President Thabo Mbeki of South Africa opened the 9th International Anti-Corruption Conference in Durban in October, 1999, recalling an observation by George Soros, which reads:

“There is something wrong with making the survival of the fittest a guiding principle of civilised society.”

Madam Speaker, in Zambia, we appreciate thieves. They are invited everywhere and looked after as the only people who know everything.

Madam Speaker, when closing the same conference, former Deputy President of South Africa, Jacob Zuma, addressed the meeting stressing and I quote:

“There is a need to continuously send a message to those who thrive on corruption that we have the will to deal with them decisively.”

Madam Speaker, in this country, the larger contracts for supply of goods, works and services are special targets for grand corruption by top civil servants. The contracts are executed by the Central Government, through own or donor funding, often by unscrupulous public officials to embezzle and defraud public funds with private business corporations or individuals or the appointees. This grand corruption is mainly in public works in construction projects such as roads, dams and so on. Madam Speaker, in contracts for the supply of goods in large quantities such as pharmaceuticals, we have seen a situation where drugs which are about to expire are brought in in bulk, and are expensive, only to end up in the incinerator. Office supplies, motor vehicles supplies, food supplies and contracts for the supply of large equipment and items such as electronic security systems, power generators and contracts for the supply of military equipment …

Mr Mtonga: Zoona!

Mr Chota: Madam Speaker, I urge hon. Members to play a positive role by supporting this Motion so that we curtail these thieves and looters for a better future of this country and our children.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kanyanyamina (Kanchibiya): Madam Speaker, I rise to support this Motion because even Jesus Christ to those who are Christians, and Allah to the Moslem society, came to redeem the poor. There is nothing wrong with this Motion to make the leaders transparent by disclosing what they have. After all, they can only hide during the night, but during the day, they are seen.

Madam Speaker, corruption has brought a lot of suffering to the rural community. People out there cannot see good roads; they cannot receive medicine or even simply teachers because corruption has robbed us of our resources which should have motivated our rural communities.

Corruption is a dangerous enemy to development and Zambia, in particular, happens to be one of the developing countries. For that, we say no to corruption and every leader, starting from President Mwanawasa, SC, to the lowliest person like me, should know what I earn every month and whatever I will get at the end of my term.

This Motion, Madam Speaker, to me, is preaching the true Gospel of Jesus Christ and Allah to take both parties on the run. Anybody who is scared of corruption should not even come forward to touch public money because it is only through public money that the destiny of this country will be determined. We will be haunted by what we do today as leaders. Tomorrow, we will be blamed in one way or another. We have seen a lot of people leaving with a lot of money. We are not jealous and I am not jealous of them. We have seen a lot of people coming out with money, most of which is not genuinely earned. Even in this House, I just do not want to point fingers at certain individuals.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Order! Do not refer to the hon. Members here. Debate the Motion.

Laughter

Mr Kanyanyamina: Madam, in support of this Motion, I am saying a leader must have nothing to hide. Any leader who has something to hide is not a leader, is evil and is a Goliath as the Bible describes it.

With these few remarks, I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chibamba (Shiwang’andu): Thank you, Madam Speaker. I am very grateful to be given this opportunity to make my humble contribution on this very important Motion.

Now, it is easy for people to pronounce certain sweet scented words. To me, corruption is the worst enemy to mankind. Corruption is as bad, if not worse than rust is to a metal. Year in and year out, Parliament approves funds for national development and I would like to say this like I have said it in the past. In this House today, the Government of the day has tried very hard. I would like to advance my personal feelings, my personal observation as I see things unfold. Meaning well is one thing, but getting things implemented for the full benefit of the people is a totally different thing altogether. As a result of the high levels of corruption in our midst, and in the ministries, by and large, we have a situation where the Government projects have stalled for many years. Out here, people would think the contractor is to blame. Far from it. That is not the position. The position is that there is so much corruption in the management and administration of Government funded projects, mainly by directors. That is a fact, Madam Speaker.

Yes, there are schools, Madam Speaker, on which the Government has spent a lot of effort and funds. These schools are meant to improve the quality of life of the people, especially those in the rural areas. There are countless precedents. Those schools have not been built to date because many directors want a cut from that money …

Mr Kambwili: Nchekelako.

Major Chibamba: … and because many directors, through their corrupt practices, would want to frustrate a project so that it takes more years to complete, while in the meantime, they make an impression to Government Ministers that such a contractor failed to perform. What failing to perform, and yet in those contracts, there are enshrined what we call benchmarks or clauses? To a contract, there are two or more parties. Each of the parties must be able to fulfil the requirements of that contract on which the Government officials, mainly directors, want to make money. The Cabinet Minister, let alone a Deputy Minister, will not know anything. All they will do is frustrate the whole process and ....

Hon. Opposition Member: Ba Daka. Ba Daka, bakesa mikaka.

Major Chibamba: … come up with a one-sided report that so and so failed to do the job. They will also make sure it is publicised to a point where even some people in America will get to know about it. It is not helping anybody.

Now, Madam Speaker, we need to have political will, goodwill for that matter, to see to it that all the monies that are approved by this august House are seen to trickle down to the common person in the village. We are talking about trillions when you put together the amount of money that has been allocated to line ministries. Much of that money does not go to the province and does not get to the district because it is kept at the ministry headquarters. Of what use is this particular fund if Members of Parliament come here to talk about lack of clean drinking water which is essential and important to human life? Our roads remain perpetually in a poor state of disrepair. There must be a reason these things are happening in this way. I have examples to give, but suffice to say that we need to reinforce our relevant pieces of legislation in order to try and reduce them. We may not completely eradicate corruption because it is deep-rooted in this country, but we must work towards reducing corruption for a better future generation.

We see a situation, Madam Speaker, where people, who are charged with the responsibility to look after the welfare of the people, find it convenient to pocket the money. How can we do such a thing? This situation in this country is terrible. I would like to appeal to all hon. Members here, if we understand what this Motion is all about to give it maximum support so that we can begin to make progress. We should not resist implementing it. We must start from somewhere. I have ample examples of where the Government has wasted money and time. What it is to Government officials now, is that very good intentions by this Government are not being appreciated because the money somewhere finds …

Hon. Opposition Member: Wings.

Major Chibamba: ... not even wings, because you can clip wings.

Laughter

Major Chibamba: It finds its own banking system. You will not find a director under the present Government who does not own a farm and three houses. I am sure the hon. Ministers will agree with me. Where does the director get the money to build mansions, farms and buy four vehicles, when we know his salary at the end of the month? Some have vehicles to take their children to school while hon. Members of Parliament and Ministers, in the absence of a Government vehicle, cannot afford to take their children to school and come to Parliament as well as have more than three vehicles. It is impossible.

Madam, the other day, I was looking at the salary of a very senior citizen in this country.

Laughter

Major Chibamba: If the most senior person in the land is getting K11 million per month, it is not proper to allow Government officials to earn more than the most senior citizen. I do not intend to debate ourselves. In fact, I would even go further to suggest the re-introduction of the Leadership Code of Conduct so that all of us are nailed down nicely.

Madam Speaker, those who want to get money either through bribery, direct corruption or corrupt practices, must be stopped. They will not stop for as long as we say it is okay. It is not okay. I remember, way back in 1991, I only had three suits.

Interruptions

Major Chibamba: I have only one. You have seen me come here, but I have never worn a suit.

Hon. Government Members: Why!

Major Chibamba: Because of poverty.

Laughter

Major Chibamba: I am telling you. Very few hon. Members here can boast of having two suits unless you are an hon. Minister.

Hon. Members: Aah!

Major Chibamba: I am being honest.

Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! Order! Do not draw this House into your debate. Can you debate the Motion?

Major Chibamba: Madam, I am debating the Motion.

What I am saying is that nobody ever talks about what happens regarding certain categories of Government officials. It is not true that the Government Ministers do not know that some of the officials are living beyond their means.

Madam, my emphasis is on the issue of corrupt practice. Why is it that Government buildings take long to complete? Somebody should ask himself. Why is it that we started putting up buildings five years ago and they are still incomplete to date, but mansions are being completed? This simply means that somehow, somewhere corruption has eroded the whole system. It is more corrosive than acid.

Mr Mtonga: Zoona!

Major Chibamba: Madam Speaker, we really need to do something about it. We need to help the President.

Interruptions

Major Chibamba: I am being honest. We need to help him in his pursuit of a corrupt-free nation. He can only make a pronouncement. It is entirely up to us to implement what is being said because we are feeling it. We will not help only if we do not feel it.

Hon, PF Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chibamba: Madam, corruption is bad. You have to see what happens to our people. In my constituency, there are no people who own bicycles. The only bicycles that I have seen are those that were issued during the campaign by MMD …

Laughter

Major Chibamba: … and are identical. I am being honest.

If they need tubes for their bicycles, they have to ask a Member of Parliament to buy one for them. Is it because they do not want to ride a bicycle? Is it because of very poor roads that no vehicles pass there? They need the bicycles, but they have been actually rendered absolutely poor.

Madam Speaker, there is so much money that this Parliament approves year in and year out, but we do not know where it goes. All we see is that, through corruption, people are not only building their houses and farms, but are also business people. They fly in and out of the country. They drive the most expensive cars on the market. There must be a source of money. Where is it from? In this nation, there is very little Kwacha in circulation. Last time, I complained to this House about the value of the Kwacha because, to me, the Kwacha is the most important and official legal tender in the nation. However, to get it is difficult. It has been siphoned …

Hon. Government Members: By who?

Major Chibamba: … by plunderers.

Hon. Government Members: Ooh!

Major Chibamba: Yes. It is all corruption.

Interruptions

Major Chibamba: Do not even look at one section of the community. I am telling you now that, in this country, there are officials who live beyond their means. This is a point which must be taken into account so that together, we can stand and fight the ills that are borne out of corruption.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

The Chair would like to guide or remind the House, once again, that there is nothing worse or more dishonourable in this House than shouting from your seats, and debating across the Floor. Each one is given an opportunity to debate. Therefore, hon. Members, can we have some order, especially that the Chair would like to hear what those who are debating are saying.

The Deputy Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Tetamashimba): Madam Speaker, I thank you very much for allowing me to debate. Surely, only the people whose skeletons you cannot trace in their suitcases are eligible to debate motions such as this one.

Madam, as hon. Members on your right, we support this Motion totally because it has been the key word, from the Head of State, his hon. Ministers, his hon. Deputy Ministers and hon. Members of Parliament.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: Some people will even ask why Hon. Lubinda has moved this motion because it portrays as if he belongs to the MMD. The answer is very simple. If you go back to the Bible, the disciples informed Jesus Christ that there was somebody who was healing people in His name and asked what they could do about him.

Laughter

Mr Tetamashimba: Jesus said, “If they are healing people in my name, then they are part of us”. Therefore, we thank Hon. Lubinda for being part and parcel of the people on your right, who are people with integrity.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Hammer!

Mr Tetamashimba: I would like to assure you that we support this Motion and the next one because you have actually come up with what we believe in.

Madam Speaker, I also hope that as we talk about this, we should look at the leaders. What is their stand on corruption? Are these the leaders who, when they took over the reigns of power, had to do away with SITET from the books of governance so that they could do other things? If they are, we must stand in our political parties and tell them that as we move these good motions and support them, we hope, in future, they will not do what they did in the past.

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: Madam, I agree that teachers were not being recruited because of corruption, but today, we have been told by the hon. Minister of Education that he is going to employ thousands of them. I believe now we all agree that in clinics where there were no panadols six years ago, you will find them.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Mr Tetamashimba: Again, this shows that we, on the right, agree with this Motion …

Mr Kambwili: On a point of order, Madam.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! Sit down.

Mr Tetamashimba: … which is on the Floor.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! The point of order is not granted.

Mr Kambwili: Why?

Madam Deputy Speaker: Sit down.

Mr Tetamashimba: I agree that if there is corruption, you cannot have money to buy medicines. I agree that if you cannot employ teachers, it is because there is too much corruption.

Madam Speaker, somebody on your left talked about military equipment and so on. I agree, but we must discuss issues. In the past, when there was gun-running, who were the leaders? All these things need to be brought to light as we debate, and if the leaders who are in the forefront in some political parties were involved in these things, let us tell them that we have debated that military equipment issue and so on. We also inform them that there was gun-running when they were in power. There is nothing wrong with telling the truth. That is why we support this Motion.

Madam Speaker, I am very happy that Hon. Lubinda is not a mouth-piece of plunderers and I am very grateful to him for that.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: He has shown by the motions which he has moved here that this is what most of us would want to see and stand for because he is trying to fight the front and those who shield thieves. That is the whole purpose of this Motion that he has moved and we thank you for that.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: I hope Hon. Lubinda has tried to look at the clauses which had allowed people to go out of Zambia with a suitcase and not be checked at the border. I hope you are going to move such a motion …

Laughter

Mr Tetamashimba: … so that people can now be arrested if they are bringing kwacha or dollars into the country. This is a very good Motion and we must support it, but we will be waiting for that clause.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Speaker, I agree with one of the last speakers who spoke about roads and everything. For the sake of people who may not know who really can make money move out of a Government account, a Minister and a Deputy Minister and even Permanent Secretaries are not signatories, just like the hon. Member said.

Now, when it comes to roads, this Government has been spending on roads and I agree with the last speaker who is, of course, a contractor. He has a contracting company called Nanshinga. I agree that these roads can only be maintained by the Ministry of Works and Supply. This Government, if the leaders in the political parties will not encourage overloading …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: … because they are saying there must be a law to halt overloading. They are asking whether there is anything wrong with overloading. We do not want overloading. If leaders do not want money to be spent on roads, they should not allow overloading.

Hon. Government Members: Hammer!

Mr Tetamashimba: I appeal to my colleagues not to blame Hon. Lubinda for moving this Motion. If anything, we should congratulate him because this has been there for many years and he has come forward to try to have it enacted. For us on your right, we are very grateful to Hon. Lubinda for doing this.

I hope, Hon. Lubinda, you are also going to include in the Bill a clause to disallow political parties from allowing their members to have custody of property of plunderers because some people have the custody of properties of plunderers.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: I hope you are going to include that clause, Hon. Lubinda, because some political parties have people who have the custody of property of plunderers. If surely you do not include such a clause, then your Motion will neither be here nor there.

You can see, Madam Speaker, that MMD will not fight anything that is good. The MMD will not fight a Bill from the Opposition that is for the sake of saving Zambia and its resources. We should always support such motions. It is good this Motion has come after we had passed a Motion to search ourselves. I hope nobody out there will ask Hon. Lubinda why he moved this Motion because we started by asking it of ourselves. All he has done is cater first for hon. Members and then the outsiders. Otherwise, if this Motion had come before the one on us, I would have said no, first your log from your eye as an hon. Member before you go elsewhere. The people who are here and outside must give credit to him that what he is doing is not targeting any individual out there. Only those who will move with trunks across the border will fear what he has done.

Laughter

Mr Tetamashimba: Only those contractors who will be talking to consultants and contractors to sit and agree will fear this. I heard the mover of the Motion say that the Anti-Corruption Commission is going to prepare for people who will start transferring property as this Bill will be in this House. I do not think that should be the case. If they discover that five years ago, I stole money, this Bill should not let me surely get off the hook. As long as I am suspected, I must be made to account for my wealth.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: However, to think that I should move fast for Hon. Lubinda’s Motion not catch up with me, I think, should not be the case. I hope by this law, the agencies will wait for somebody to make some noise. I was very embarrassed last time when Hon. Kapita, by then just a farmer in Ndola, talked about corruption and the response was that there had been no report and therefore this could not be done. I was very disappointed. We now want to see the agencies see to it that if Hon. Matongo has more than one Mercedes Benz, there is nothing wrong in going to ask him. How come you have all these cars? Where do you get the money to buy these cars from? That should not be an offence. We should not put up injunctions and ask why they are investigating. No, let us be transparent. Only these motions will make the future generation fear corruption.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi (Luena): Thank you, Madam Speaker. I notice that there is unanimous support from both those on your right and your left. It is, therefore, time for those directly in front of you to give their independent support.

Mr Munaile: Hammer, mudala.

Mr Milupi: Madam Speaker, the effects of corruption are all around us. Zambia is a rich country, endowed with vast resources. It has many educated and experienced people, yet we continue to wallow in poverty. Countries that were behind us in terms of development in 1964 are now way ahead of us and therefore, it is opportune to ask ourselves why Zambia continues to lag behind in spite of the many resources that God has given us.

Corruption has an adverse impact on the development of our national infrastructure. Schools have continued to lack development and when you have schools not developing at the expected rate for a country like Zambia, this directly impacts on the development of our nation.

Madam Speaker, for any money that an entity spends on projects, there is an expectation that there will be a return on investment. This is also true of a nation; whatever money that is spent on social infrastructure, a return on investment is expected. Therefore, if the money is abused or misapplied, it has a direct effect on the rate of development.

For example, if we spend money on schools, we expect that the people we educate will be better placed to effectively contribute to the development of this nation, hence if we do not build more schools, the reverse is also correct. If we also spend money on roads, we will open up our rural areas and bring into the mainstream the many assets and natural resources that are still unexploited. The same is true for health and hospital facilities.

Therefore, the question as whether corruption is good or bad for this country- we all agree that it is a cancer that we must all fight. Who is responsible for the state of poverty that this country is in? Therefore, I support this Bill because it is an attempt to fight corruption so that the resources of this nation can be used for development and for the benefit of everyone. This year, our national budget is K12 trillion, but we cannot raise all of it from local resources. We are only able to raise about K8 trillion and have to go to the world to beg for the other K3.6 trillion that we need to balance our budget. As a result of poverty, year after year, we continue to come up with deficit budgets. The creditors have been very kind to us in that through the Highly Indebted Poor Countries (HIPC) Initiative, they have written-off our debt from US$7 billion to US$500 million. Alas, our national debt is beginning to rise and if we are not careful, it will go back to what it was.

Let us look at the two sides of the budget so that we can understand how to fight corruption. The first is the expenditure side, where money goes through our fingers. Through contracts for projects we lose money and the opportunity for development as a result of works that are not completed. A road that is funded, and yet the money is stolen means the nation loses an opportunity to develop. This is the same for the Mbesuma Bridge …

Mr D. Mwila: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: … the fact that it is not there means that certain sections of our community have to travel an extra 400 kilometres from point A to B.

Mr Munaile: Hammer, mudala.

Mr Milupi: This shows the seriousness of what corruption can do to this nation. We have to look at this Bill in its totality. The Bill brought here by the hon. Member of Parliament for Kabwata, is aimed at stumping out corruption. Who are the people involved in corruption and embezzling the Government’s funds? This is why we are looking at the expenditure side where we have people whose responsibility is to award contracts. To be involved in corruption, you have to have something that you are offering. The fact that you are responsible for awarding contracts means that you have an opportunity and people are willing to pay you to favour them. We have to have means of capturing contractors and suppliers that take up Government contract without the means to fulfill them. Big amounts of money are being lost through such contracts.
Let us face facts; is it only the Zambians who are corrupt or foreigners as well? It takes two to tango. Therefore, the corruption that we talk about is not only perpetrated by Zambians, but also by foreigners. Even contractors from countries that preach to us about corruption are engaged in it when seeking contracts from our Government.

Madam Speaker, let us now look at the revenue side. Again, huge sums of money are lost due to Government’s failure to get revenue that is due to be collected.  We have evidence in some of our committees that some Government cashiers can steal K850 million to K1.2 billion, which are large sums of money. What about the business taxes that are evaded? We have many such examples. We are also supposed to capture these if we are to buttress the revenue side. What about the many shopkeepers, some of them of foreign origin, who sometimes ask if you want a Value Added Tax (VAT) receipt or not. This is how Government’s revenue is lost.

I support this Bill because it seeks to control and reduce the impact of corruption so that everyone can benefit from the fruits of this country. This Bill seeks everyone, from the position of Director and upwards, to declare their assets.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.{mospagebreak}

The Deputy Speaker: When business was suspended, the hon. Member for Luena was speaking, may he continue.

Mr Milupi: Madam Speaker, we brought to light many people and institutions that can affect our ability in terms of corruption on the expenditure side as well as the revenue of the budget.

In essence, Madam, as I said, I support this motion. My only wish is that it could have gone further to capture all the people who need to be captured for us to have a greater impact on the resources of this country.

Madam Speaker, looking at the proposed Bill, it lays and defines those who will be defaulting and those who do not declare their assets or declare them falsely. Therefore, what shall we do with those who exhibit substantial increases in the asset base that cannot be explained by their declared sources of revenue?

Madam Speaker, these are cardinal points. In terms of who else needs to be captured, the mover of the motion referred to senior officers and those were defined as those at the rank and above the rank of Director in the ministries and I agree with him on that.

However, I would urge that looking at those that are being captured by the Auditor-General’s Report, a good number of them fall below this level. These are cashiers, accounting officers and even people such as headmasters and those who run the accounts of ministries in provinces and so on. My wish is that these are also captured.

Let us look at those whose assets shall be substantially higher than what they are supposed to have, looking at their revenue base. What shall we do with them; what system do we have in place to deal with them? Are we going to continue with the notion that these will only be followed if they are an inconvenience to the powers that shall be or shall we have a system in place that routinely follow those who are captured by this Bill?

In other words, those assets, on a yearly basis, demonstrate a substantial increase. Therefore, this brings to the fore the role of our law enforcement officers such as the Anti-Corruption and the Drug Enforcement commissions.

Madam Speaker, these have a critical role to play and they must play their role correctly, because if they do not do that, even if we have it on our statutes, it will have no impact on our effort to reduce corruption and development. They, themselves, need to be captured. After all, as I defined earlier, they have the opportunity because already, we have seen reports of people offering them money so that they drop their cases. So, they have the opportunity to not only be corrupt themselves, but also members of their family.

Therefore, can we have a situation where they are also captured and declare their assets? In fact, I hazard to put on to this motion that all those who work in the offices of the Anti-Corruption, regardless of level, must also declare their assets.

Hon. Opposition Members: All of them.

Mr Milupi: Just as the hon. Members of Parliament have led by example by being included in this Motion. We would also want them to lead by example so that we know what is happening to their assets.

All too often, we see guesthouses and mansions being built by civil servants at all sorts of levels, and these are assets, and yet even as we sit now, the law has sufficiently empowered the Anti-Corruption Commission to undertake the investigations, but we are not seeing the impact of this. They must also play their part. In doing so, they must also lead by example.

With this, Madam, I am very glad to add my support to this Motion.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Speaker: The Chair does not hear any different opinion from the House, and therefore, I will only allow one hon. Member to bring out points that have not yet been brought out.

Mr Hamududu (Bweengwa): Madam Speaker, I will, indeed, bring a new point. Corruption, like any other social evil, is a moral issue. The world today is failing to solve problems because of immorality and if we are to solve the social evils that confront our society today, such as corruption, HIV/AIDS and nepotism, we need to be morally upright because corruption is not only playing around figures, but it begins in the conscious. Therefore, in this fight against corruption, there is a need to call for morality in leadership. This is a missing link in Africa and other countries that are struggling economically.

Madam Speaker, what happened in the first ten years of the MMD rule? Some us are students of Economic History. Therefore, no one can cheat us. This is a time when there was a plantation of immorality of the highest order.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: Its results were corruption, nepotism and HIV/AIDS.
Interruptions

Mr Hamududu: Yes, we want leaders who are upright.

Madam Speaker, let me say that His Excellency President Levy Mwanawasa, SC is exemplary. I see that his family is moral …
Interruptions

Mr Hamududu: … we want an example first. Do not lead others before you lead your family properly. I do not know what platform we are going to bring these issues on because we need a holistic approach here and not a piecemeal approach.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. PF Members: Family tree!

Mr Hamududu: Madam Speaker, we know the issues of the family tree very well; we are not children. For example, before the New Deal Administration, I was in a foreign country how skewed the Foreign Service was towards one region. When someone tries to reverse that, you must not say family tree. Stop that.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: There must be fairness by the New Deal Administration. Even from my constituency, some people must be in the Foreign Service. There is no tribe that can represent Zambian better than others, no! We all went to school and we can do anything that any other Zambian can do. No one must stand up here to be a Mr and Mrs Smart.

Even the business we are running must be exemplary. We do not expect public servants, politicians or Members of Parliament, for example, to run beer halls because it is immoral. People will be abducting our children and abusing them. We will not allow that.
Laughter

Mr Hamududu: Madam Speaker, I support this Motion, but I am one of those people who believe in a holistic approach because I will never allow myself to be a cheat. What we are saying here is that if you are an MP or public servant in a position of service and running a company, you must be fair to your workers. You must abide by the rules of the land. It would be very sad to hear about some MP or civil servant running a business, and not complying with Government regulations. We come here and you speak as if you are Mr and Ms Smart. Some of us are lucky. We were born with silver spoons in our mouths. Yah! When I was born we had a lot of cattle.

Laughter

Mr Hamududu: Yah! Even during the sad reign, the cattle diseases were part of corruption. I am very happy with the current hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives. We thank God that even with the disease, the animals are regenerating. The silver spoon is still around.

Hon. Member: It is still silver.

Mr Hamududu: Yaah! If I have to declare my assets here, you really have to go back to the Kafue Flats. In debating, we must say ‘we’, and not ‘you’. We, the Members of Parliament, must not declare what we do not have. No, we must not be Mr and Ms Smart. That is very important. We must say ‘we’. We call for morality in this nation.

These pieces of legislation are welcome and I support the mover of this Motion, my friend, Hon. Lubinda. This is very positive and, as a member of APNAC, I support this Motion. However, let us take a holistic approach so that we do not leave lacuna. The people want development and development will only come through a morally upright leadership.

Hon Member: Morality, 399 pairs of shoes.

Mr Hamududu: Finally, I hope that people did not come to this House through stolen or plundered money. For those of us who are in this House today, it is the example and the pinnacle of the Zambian society. We are the cream of the Zambian society and we must not be seen to support people who are being investigated. We must be exemplary …

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: … and I want to say we, on this side, are an issue-based political party. We are not petty. We are firm, but polite. Where our colleagues are wrong, we will tell them this is wrong, not because they are our enemy, but because they are our friends. We are good friends. However, we will not support something that is wrong. Therefore, you must understand us in that perspective. We are issue based. The issue of political whatever is not necessary. We want to deliver to the Zambian people.

Today, as I go to Bweengwa, I move in that road from Monze to Niko and I feel very sad about the ten years of corruption. We just need K24 billion to tar the road from Monze to Niko. That is an economically busy road. Yet some people stole more than that. What is that? We, the younger people, who are the leaders of tomorrow, call for morality. Please, check your conscience and see whether you are standing morally upright. That is my warning and my advice to the people who have accepted to come into public office.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

The Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda SC.): Madam Speaker, I just would like to say that this Motion and the intended Bill are consistent with Government policy. We have included, in the Fifth National Development Plan, under the Chapter on Governance, the proposal that public officers will be required to file declarations of assets and liabilities. Therefore, it is part of the Government policy of zero tolerance to corruption. Of course, it is unfortunate that the mover of the Motion did not consult. If he did, we would have given him better ideas …

Laughter

Mr Kunda SC.:… on how to draft the legislation. Perhaps, that can still be discussed.

Madam Speaker, as you can see, we are introducing legislation in this august House, which is aimed at promoting transparency. For example, those who monitor corruption or public officers such as hon. Members of Parliament and hon. Ministers, NGOs and other organisations even in the private sector, what are we doing to ensure that they are also as transparent as us?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kunda SC.: For example, are we going to support the NGO Bill, which is there to try and promote transparency so that NGO leaders file returns regularly on where they get money and how much money they have in their accounts?
Interruptions

Mr Kunda SC.: Madam Speaker, those who shout wolf, wolf, all the time, …
Laughter

Mr Kunda SC.: … must also care to check whether they are trying to put up a facade so that they divert attention. Therefore, it is important that when the NGO Bill comes here, Hon. Lubinda should move an amendment requiring NGO leaders to file declarations …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kunda SC.: … so that we take you as a person who is interested in a holistic approach to the fight against corruption since you represent the African Parliamentarians Network Against Corruption (APNAC).

Madam Speaker, apart from what I have said on the way, the Bill, as has been structured, needs more in put. It is important that the law achieves what is intended. For example, in some institutions, I know that there are no directors. When you say you are going to file a return when you are above the position of director, who is going to do that? In certain ministries or parastatals, what do you mean when you say a director? These are some of the things which we should discuss and come up with a better law.

Madam Speaker, in this regard, I wish to support this particular Motion. It is well intended and we should all support it.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank all the hon. Members of Parliament who debated on this Motion for their support. I also would like to commend all those who supported the Motion from their benches. A number of issues have been raised. With your permission, let me make it clear that those pieces of advice have been taken.

Sir, let me make it clear that those pieces of advice have been taken seriously. There is always a threshold on the levels of staff that we can ask to make annual declarations. We cannot go down to the level of a sweeper because asking a sweeper to declare his assets would only create a lot of administrative problems. There are people who should make these declarations because of their position and the influence that the position gives them.

Madam Speaker, I would like to emphasise that when I was reading the objects of the Bill that I propose to move, I indicated that accounting staff shall be provided for. I agree with those of you that said that other institutions ought to be provided for.

Further, I would like to assure the hon. Minister of Justice, Hon. George Kunda, SC, that I have studied the Non-Governmental Organisations Bill, and at a later stage, I will come to the Floor of this House with amendments to that Bill, to ensure that NGO leaders also comply with a similar law.

Hon Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: For me, what is good for the goose must be good for the gander.

Madam Speaker, I move this Motion, believing that it is possible for us, as Parliamentarians, to clean up our country. These motions are not targeted at individuals; they are targeted at cleaning the rot that is affecting our people.

I would like to say that the hon. Deputy Minister of Works and Supply might have misunderstood me when I said do not start transferring assets for fear of the enactment of this Law.

I was saying that, if you are going to sell off your assets, you should be able to show the revenue of that sale on your declaration. This is because if you do not show the revenue, the ACC will find out that your property was transferred as a way of cleaning yourself. The ACC will find you with that property, and we want you to be punished for being custodians of plunderers’ resources.

Madam Speaker, for me, it is not a question of you and I when I stand to speak of these matters. I speak irrespective of the political affiliations or persuasions of all of us in this House. This is because these are matters on which we need unanimity. I do not think this Motion should be abused. To trivialise this Motion, would be trivialising a very important issue.

I do not think that it is fair to use my Motion to start innuendos. Remember, hon. Members, that when you live in a glass house, do not throw stones. I do not want to use this Motion to embarrass anyone. I am not targeting any individual, but I would like to say to you, hon. Minister of Justice, that the African Parliamentarians Network Against Corruption(APNAC) is actively working on coming up with a law to regulate political parties to ensure that those who are aspiring for leadership are obliged to stay clean while in their political parties. This will ensure that when they make declarations, they can show that the declarations were backed by the tax that they paid. This will help the people aspiring for leadership to show where the huge amounts of money withdrawn from bank accounts are coming from.

Madam Speaker, I am sure all of us in this House will support that because it is progressive. Hon. Members, our idea is not to use such Motions to embarrass each other, but to build our country.

I would like to end by thanking all who supported this Motion and I appeal to those of you that are not in support of this Motion, even those that did not catch the eye of the Speaker, not to attack me outside and call me a fool for moving this Motion. You had the opportunity in this House to debate the Motion and if you are a keeper of plunderers money, do not insult me outside. I bring these Motions to this House for open debate.

With those few remarks, I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon Members: Hear, hear!

Question put and agreed to. Leave granted.

_____

BILLS

FIRST READING

ANTI-TERRORISM BILL, 2007

The Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda SC.): Madam Speaker, I beg to present a Bill entitled the Anti-Terrorism Bill, 2007.  The objects of this Bill are to:

(a) prohibit the carrying out of any act of terrorism;

(b) provide for measures for the detection and prevention of terrorist activities; and

(c) provide for matters connected with or incidental to the foregoing.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker: The Bill stands referred to the Committee on National Security and Foreign Affairs. The Committee is required to submit its report on the Bill to the House by Tuesday, 7th August, 2007.

Hon. Members who wish to make submissions or amendments to the Bill are free to do so within the programme of work of the Committee.

I thank you.

______

MOTION

ADJOURNMENT

The Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services (Mr Mulongoti): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

______

The House adjourned at 1858 hours until 1430 hours on Thursday, 26th July, 2007.