Debates- Thursday, 26th July, 2007

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 Thursday, 26th July, 2007 

The House met at 1430 hours






615. Mr Chisala (Chilubi) asked the Minister of Communications and Transport whether there were any plans to provide smaller fibre boats to the people living in the swampy areas in Chilubi Parliamentary Constituency who depended on dug out canoes for transport.

The Deputy Minister of Communications and Transport (Mr Mubika): Madam Speaker, the ministry, through the Bangweulu Water Transport Board, provides water transport services to the community in Chilubi Parliamentary Constituency. As soon as the funds are made available, Bangweulu Water Transport has plans to procure banana boats for the area.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chisala: Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that the Government’s failure to address the water transport problem in the Bangweulu area has been the source of a number of deaths in the area?

Mr Mubika: Madam Speaker, the ministry is aware of that, but through the Bangweulu Water Transport, the ministry will provide a grant to the board so that we can procure some banana boats to alleviate the problems of transport for people living in the surrounding areas of Bangweulu.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that around 1994 and 1995, Bangweulu Water Transport stopped using small fibre boats that were suitable for the Bangweulu Swamps and attempts to try and revise this service seem to have failed. What assurance can the hon. Minister give that this time around, we will probably get these boats?

The Minister of Communications and Transport (Ms Sayifwanda): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for that concern. Yes, the ministry is aware of that problem. That is why my Deputy Minister has responded that way. At the same time, the same Bangweulu Water Transport Board is making an assessment to make sure that something is done to that effect.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Zulu (Bwana Mkubwa): Madam Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister as to what has happened to the post bus which used to be in Samfya.

Ms Sayifwanda: Madam Speaker, the question was on the provision of fibre boats to Chilubi Parliamentary Constituency. If at all the hon. Member of Parliament wants to have details on buses, I would request him to come to the ministry and we will avail him that information.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.


617. Mr Kambwili (Roan) asked the Minister of Mines and Minerals Development:

(a) how many Zambians had been granted small-scale copper mining licences from the time the privatisation exercise commenced; and

(b) how much tax the companies at (a) above had paid to the Government.

The Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Dr Mwansa): Madam Speaker, a total of fifty Zambians have been granted small-scale copper mining licences from the time the privatisation exercise started in 1998 to June, 2007.

Madam Speaker, during the period under review, only three companies paid tax to the Government, amounting to K9 billion.

The House may wish to know that most of the small-scale copper mining companies are dormant and do not have the capacity to operate.  Consequently, they have not been able to pay taxes.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kambwili: Madam Speaker, what is the ministry doing to make sure licences for mines that are dormant are revoked and given to people that can operate and contribute to the revenue of this nation.

Dr Mwansa: Madam Speaker, it is true that a lot of small mining companies have difficulty operating their mines profitably. We have provided various forms of assistance to them and this includes the facility under the European Union where some funding is available for small-scale mining operators. The problem has been that the conditions attached to these facilities have been very stringent to the extent that not many small-scale miners have been able to access that funding.

Madam Speaker, within the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development, we have the Mining Sector Evolving Fund under which we lend small-scale miners up to K50 million per applicant. We are now considering the possibility of extending this facility so that more people can access it, and different amounts of money are given. For those who may not be able to access this funding for various reasons, steps will be taken to repossess the mines and give them to those who will be able to exploit them.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister mentioned that only three companies had paid tax. Since these companies are few, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister the names of the three companies.

Dr. Mwansa: Madam Speaker, the companies are:

(a) Zamshort Limited, which paid K 4 Billion the time it was under review;

(b) Hetero Mining and Oil Dealers, which paid K4 Billion during the time under review; and

(c) ZADACIA Mining Company which paid K1 Billion.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Chimumbwa (Nchanga): Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that the people in possession of small-scale mining licences, who are pretending to be mining, are stealing copper from the big mining companies. As a result, the Government is losing a lot of revenue. What is the Government doing about this?

Hon Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Mwansa: Madam Speaker, there is no information to prove that people who are stealing copper are those who have licences, but are not mining. Theft of copper is an offence, and steps are taken to prosecute the people in possession of the copper. Nevertheless, it is illegitimate to link small-scale miners to theft. There is absolutely no linkage.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Madam Speaker, in one of his answers, the hon. Minister said the small-scale miners could not have access to some of the money from donors because the conditions are very difficult. I wonder if it is possible for the hon. Minister to re-negotiate on behalf of the small-scale miners with the donors so that they ease the conditions on which they can get the money.

Dr Mwansa: Madam Speaker, I can confirm that steps are being taken to re-negotiate less stringent terms for the small-scale miners. In fact, we have managed to get another facility called Pride Zambia from the European Union (EU) facility, which was less stringent.

Madam Speaker, out of that funding, twelve small-scale miners were able to access some money, ranging from K20 million to K30 million per individual. Under the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development, plans are underway to do more and extend this facility to more miners with increased levels of assistance.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.



618. Mr Imenda (Lukulu East) asked the Minister of Foreign Affairs what is the status of Zambia’s obligation to pay subscription fees to the following international organisations:

(a) the United Nations;

(b) the African Union;

(c) the Commonwealth;

(d) COMESA and SADC; and

(e) the World Trade Organisation.

The Vice-President (Mr R. Banda): Madam Speaker, the status of Zambia’s obligation to pay subscription fees to international organisations is as follows:

 Organisation                                       Amount Owing            Amount Paid                       Balance 
                                                            (ZMK)                          (ZMK)                                 Outstanding
 United Nations                                    2,853,256,000         1,233,256,000                      1,620,000,000

 African Union                                     2,481,688,000         1,846,031,250                       635,656,750

 Commonwealth                                  1,218,978,880                   -                                   1,218,978,880

 COMESA                                            3,522,616,000          3,494,616,000                       28,000,000

 SADC                                                 4,769,762,100          4,769,762,100                             -

 WTO                                                      128,000,000            128,000,000                                -  

Totals                                                17,533,221,100       11,471,665,350                     3,502,635,630

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Ms Imbwae (Lukulu West): Madam Speaker, I am not sure whether I should direct this question to His Honour the Vice-President or the hon. Minister. However, can the Government tell us which of these organisations we are getting maximum benefit from by virtue of our membership, since we are paying so much money?

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, we derive maximum benefit from all of them.

I thank you, Madam.


619. Mr Chimbaka (Bahati) asked the Minister of Justice when the International Convention on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights would be domesticated.

The Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda): Madam Speaker, in the Directive Principles of State Policy, under part 9 of the Constitution of Zambia, the Government is bound to provide what is mostly referred to as the Economic, Social and Cultural Rights in the International Convention.

Madam Speaker, such rights include the right to education, health, clean water, decent shelter, employment, means of livelihood, etc. However, even though these are not justicable rights, they are already recognised in our Constitution, meaning that they cannot be enforced through a court action.

The issue of making rights justicable and including them in the Bill of Rights, i.e. in part 3 of the Constitution, will be considered by the proposed Constitutional Conference. It must be noted that the realisation of most economic, social and cultural rights depends on the progressive economic development of a country, and does not lie exclusively within the power of its Government.

 When economic, social and cultural rights are involved, the burden tends to be heavier, and tasks more complicated. This explains why the obligations under the International Convention on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights are qualified and progressive.

Madam Speaker, under part 2 of the Covenant, articles 2-5 contain an undertaking to take the following steps, especially economic and technical, but within available resources:

(a) guarantee the rights contained in the Covenant without discrimination; and

(b) a proviso for developing countries that cannot limit their commitment to economic rights as follows:

(i) the stated parties undertake to ensure equality between the sexes in respect of economic, social and cultural rights; and

(ii)  the rights are expressed in terms to resources-constrained objectives, rather than all absolute obligations.

Madam Speaker, the Government has been addressing some aspects of the Covenant through policy decisions. For instance, the right to food is being implemented through programmes such as the Fertiliser Support Programme and the distribution of relief food.

In the health sector, the Government policy of doing away with user fees for citizens who are over sixty-five and under five years of age and also, removal of user fees in rural health centres has been another way of addressing the requirement of the convent.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chimbaka: Madam Speaker, is the hon. Learned Minister of Justice confirming that the Government has inadequate resources, which if the convention was domesticated, would give Government problems to address issues when justifiable.

Mr Kunda: Madam Speaker, what I was saying in my answer is that even the covenant itself recognises that you can only implement these rights within available resources-meaning that these rights are qualified evening the convention itself.

Indeed, Government can only honour these rights within available resources. As a Parliamentarian, you know that our budget has limitations.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.{mospagebreak}


621. Dr Chishimba (Kasama Central) asked the Minister of Justice:

(a) how many Acts of Parliament contained clauses which were declared unconstitutional by the Courts of Law in the pat fifteen years;

(b) how many of these Acts above were brought to Parliament for amendments; and

(c) which British Acts were still applicable in Zambia.

Mr Kunda: Madam Speaker, I would like to inform the House that in 1995 the Supreme Court in the case of Christine Mulundika and seven others versus the people declared Section 5 and 7 of the Public order Act Chapter 113, which required persons intending to assemble to obtain a permit from the police to be in conflict with the Constitution provision which grant freedom of assembly and expression and declared them unconstitutional and null void.

Madam Speaker, in 1999, the High Court in the case of John Bands and the people held that Section 24 (c) and 27 of the Penal Code Chapter 87, which authorised the imposition of a sentence of the corporal punishment by a court, were in indirect conflict with Article 15 of the Constitution. Article 15 provides that a person shall not be subjected to torture or to inhuman or degrading punishment or other like punishment. Section 24 of the Penal Code, on the other hand, read as follows and I quote:

‘The following punishment maybe inflicted a court:

(c) Corporal punishment; and

Section 27, Subsection (27) (3) (4) and 5 stipulated instances where corporal punishment could be administered. The court in passing judgment observed that the sentence of corporal punishment could not be sustained as it was in human degrading and barbaric in nature. The court therefore, declared that Section 24 (c) and 27 of the Penal code were unconstitutional and therefore, null and void and should be severed from the Penal Code.

(b) In view of the court’s rulings given in Paragraph (a), Acts of Parliament which contained unconstitutional provisions were brought to Parliament for amendments and passed. The Acts include the following:

(i) the Public Order (Amendment) Act No.1, 1996;

(iii) the Criminal Procedure Code (Amendment) Act, No. 9, 2003;

(iv) the Penal Code (Amendment) Act, No. 10,  2003;

(v) the Education (Amendment) Act, 11, 2003;

(vi) the Prison (Amendment) Act No. 17, 2004;

(vii) the Local Court (Amendment) Act No. 18, 2003;  and

(viii) the Supreme Court (Amendment) Act, No.19, 2003.

Madam Speaker, as a result of these amendments, persons intending to assemble are now only required to give seven days notice to the police as opposed to obtaining a permit. Further, corporal punishment is no longer permitted as a form of punishment.

(c) the British Acts Extension Act Chapter 10 of the Laws of Zambia provides for the extension or application of certain British Acts to Zambia.

Section 2 of the Act provides that the Acts of Parliament of the United Kingdom listed in a Schedule shall be deemed to be of full force and effect within Zambia. These are as follow:

(i) the Conveyancing Act, 1911;

(ii) the Forgery act , 1913;

(iii) the Industrial and Provident Societies (Amendment) Act, 1913;

(iv) the larceny Act, 1916;

(v) the Bills of Exchange (Time of Noting) Act, 1917;

(vi) the Married Women (Maintenance) Act, 1920;

(vii) the Gaming Act, 1922;

(viii) the Industrial and Provident Societies (Amendment) Act, 1928;

(ix) the Limitation Act, 1939; and

(x) the Law Reform (Enforcement of Contracts) Act, 1954.

There are other Acts of Parliament of the United Kingdom that apply with certain amendments to Zambia.

In particular, Section 4 of the Act provides that the Bill of Exchange Act, 1882 of the Parliament of the United Kingdom shall, in its application to Zambia, be read as if the words “The Public Holiday Act” were substituted with the words “Bank Holiday Act, 1871”, and as if the words “Public Holiday” were substituted with the words “bank holiday”.

Also, Section 5 of the Act provides that Section 1 of the Friendly Societies Act, 1896 of the Parliament of the United Kingdom shall in its application to Zambia be amended by the repeal of subsection (4).

Madam, Speaker, another relevant statute is the English Law (Extent of Application) Act, Chapter 11 of the Laws of Zambia, which provides for the extent to which the Laws of England shall apply to Zambia. In particular, Section 2 of the Act provides that subject to the provisions of the Constitution of Zambia and to any other written law, the statutes which were in force in England on the 17th August, 1911 or any statutes of a latter date extended to Zambia shall be in force in Zambia. This means the Act passed in UK before 17th August, 1911 apply to Zambia. Therefore, there are several such English Statutes which apply to Zambia.

It is also important to mention that the jurisdiction of the High Court in divorce and matrimonial causes as well as probate causes and matters is exercised in substantial conformity with the law and practice for the time being in England by virtue of Section 11 (1) and (3) of the High Court Act Cap. 27.

By virtue of this section, the Matrimonial Causes Act, 1973 and amendments made thereto, apply to Zambia. I must also mention that all Statutes of Parliament of the United Kingdom applied to Zambia, apply only in so far as the limits of the local jurisdiction and local circumstances permit (Section 12 of the High Court Act, Cap. 27).

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Dr Chishimba: Madam Speaker, going by the inflation of the so many provisions in some of the statutes that are declared unconstitutional, and, also, the Government, which is supposed to be a Government of laws, as preached, does the extension recognition of certain statutes which originate from Britain, mean that the Government should be blind, for instance, in the provisions of the Foreign Judgements Act, to be specific, Section 2 and 3 which actually demand that the President should issue a statutory order for foreign judgment to be recognised in Zambia?

Mr Kambwili: Hear, hear!

Mr Kunda: Madam Speaker, this forum does not discuss matters which are before the court. That particular matter that the hon. Member referring to is before the courts of law. It is being considered by Mr Justice Japhet Banda.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Awee mwatina fye!

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!


Mr C. K. B. Banda SC (Chasefu): Madam Speaker, the Supreme Court has, on two occasions, lamented that there exists a lacuna in our Electoral Regulations such that when people dish out gifts during election period, even though the court proves that this was done, the courts have lamented that they can do nothing about this because the regulations are silent. Bearing in mind the sensitivity this Government has shown through your answer, could you, please, hon. Minister, tell us when you will ensure that the Electoral Regulations are amended in order to attend to the lamentation by the Supreme Court in the recent two Presidential petitions.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kunda: Madam Speaker, that particular issue was presented before this august House when we were passing the Electoral Act. It was extensively debated and it was rejected by this august House. At that particular time, a Member of Parliament from Forum for Democracy and Development (FDD) moved an amendment which was defeated on the Floor of this House.

However, as we reviewed the Constitution, because we did not touch the provisions in the Constitution relating to the issue of elections, we did not review those. It is possible that in the proposed Constitutional Conference, such issues may be discussed. Perhaps, arising from the resolutions of the Constitutional Conference, it may be necessary, again, to look at the Electoral Act. Perhaps, at that stage, such questions or issues can be raised.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Katema (Chingola): Madam Speaker, according to the Learned hon. Minister, the law requires that any organisation or persons who want to assemble requires only seven days’ notification to the police to have an assembly, why is it that to date, we hear in the papers, of people or organisations not being allowed by the police to assemble or denied permits to assemble?

Mr Kambwili: Hear, hear!

Mr Kunda: Madam Speaker, according to what I know, persons have been allowed to demonstrate for various reasons. Of course, if a person does not comply with that Act or if the police feel that they cannot police a particular assembly or procession, within the terms of that Act, the police can advice. I think that is what has been happening. It is a question of applying that law within the provisions of that particular Act.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Kambwili: Madam Speaker, I would like to find out from the Learned hon. Minister of Justice, what mechanism …

Dr Chishimba: On a point of order, Madam.

Madam Speaker: Is it procedural?

Dr Chishimba: Yes, going by what has been said.

Madam Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Dr Chishimba: Madam Speaker, firstly, of I will start from what the hon. Minister of Justice has just said.

Madam Deputy Speaker: No, hon. Member. If you want to refer to what is going on now, then you do not have the point of order. The point of order that you should raise in the House is any point regarding to procedures in the House.

Hon. Members, I think we have been guided enough. Do not bring issues from outside that are in the papers; that is scores that are supposed to be settled outside the House. Here, we have a specific Order Paper that we follow. If you have, for example, constitutional issues that you want clarified, you, actually, go to the Speaker and agree on how to go about it. If there are issues of an urgent nature, you also have your question put on the Order Paper at the right time. If you are, really, looking for information, you may not get it properly through points of order.

I think we have tried to follow our procedure and the Standing Orders so that points of order are limited to points of procedure. Any other issues can be dealt with in other ways.

So, if you are referring to the debate, you can simply ask a supplementary question, but you cannot start referring to what is on the Floor because the hon. Member is on the Floor unless it is a point of procedure, what is wrong in the House or what has happened that is not right. You cannot, therefore, raise a point of order unless the hon. Member was on the Floor. You cannot raise a point of order on something that has passed. I hope that this is enough guidance.

Mr Kambwili: Twasanswa. Kalele fye.

Madam Speaker, it is about the …

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! That is the guidance.

Mr Kambwili: Madam Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister of Justice what mechanism has been put in place to ensure that laws which are passed are not declared null and void by the courts.

Mr Kunda: Madam Speaker, when we are passing laws, we research and within our available human resource, we compare with what is in the Constitution and ensure that the law is not in conflict. After the Bill has been drafted and has left our Ministry, it comes here and when it is here it is also the responsibility of hon. Members to check and ensure that they bring any conflict to the attention of the House so that they are cleared before the Bill is passed.

I thank you, Madam.


622. Mr D. Mwila asked the Minister of Community Development and Social Services how much money the Government released to assist traditional ceremonies in Zambia from 2005 to 2006, ceremony by ceremony.

The Deputy Minister of Community Development and Social Services (Mr Chinyanta): Madam Speaker, the Government released a total of K323,700,000 to assist traditional ceremonies in Zambia from 2005 to 2006 and the ceremonies are broken down as follows:

Paramount Chiefs                                      Amount (K)                         Amount (K)

                                                                 2005                                    2006

Chitimukulu                                               Not held due to                   Not held due to
                                                                succession wrangles        succession wrangles
Gawa Undi                                              3,000,000                             3,500,000
Mpezeni                                                   3,000,000                            3,500,000
Litunga                                                     3,000,000                            3,500,000
Sub Total                                                 9,000,000                           10,500,000

Senior Chiefs                                          Amount (K)                         Amount (K)

                                                                2005                                   2006

Mukuni                                                     2,800,000                           3,000,000
Shakumbila                                              2,800,000                           3,000,000
Mushili                                                     2,800,000                           3,000,000
Kalindawalo                                            2,800,000                           3,000,000
Nsefu                                                      2,800,000                           3,000,000
Kambombo                                              2,800,000                           3,000,000
Magodi                                                    2,800,000                           3,000,000
Mwewa                                                  2,800,000                           3,000,000
Mununga                                                 2,800,000                           3,000,000
Mwata Kazembe                                     2,800,000                           3,000,000
Puta                                                         2,800,000                           3,000,000
Mushota                                                  2,800,000                           3,000,000
Nkomeshya                                             2,800,000                           3,000,000
Mburuma                                                 2,800,000                           3,000,000
Kopa                                                       2,800,000                            3,000,000
Chunga                                                    2,800,000                           3,000,000
Muyombe                                                 2,800,000                            3,000,000
Kafwimbi                                                 2,800,000                            3,000,000
Kanongesha                                            2,800,000                            3,000,000
Ndungu                                                    2,800,000                            3,000,000
Kasempa                                                 2,800,000                            3,000,000
Kalilele                                                     2,800,000                            3,000,000
Ishindi                                                      2,800,000                            3,000,000
Sikefele                                                   2,800,000                             3,000,000
Sub Total                                               67,200,000                           72,000,000

Bisa/Swaka/Lala                                   2,500,000                                  2,500,000
Chibuluma                                              2,500,000                                  2,500,000
Machiya                                                 2,500,000                                  2,500,000
Matanda                                                 2,500,000                                  2,500,000
Bunda Bunda                                         2,500,000                                  2,500,000
Chiawa                                                  2,500,000                                  2,500,000
Mumpashya                                           2,500,000                                  2,500,000
Mwenechifungwu                                 2,500,000                                  2,500,000
Nawaitwika                                           2,500,000                                  2,500,000
Chiwanangala                                       2,500,000                                  2,500,000
Nabwalya                                              2,500,000                                  2,500,000
Mambwe/Lungu                                     2,500,000                                  2,500,000
Mwenewisi                                            2,500,000                                  2,500,000
Mushima                                                2,500,000                                   2,500,000
Kalunga                                                 2,500,000                                   2,500,000
Chiyengele                                            2,500,000                                   2,500,000
Kapijimpanga                                         2,500,000                                   2,500,000
Chizera                                                 2,500,000                                    2,500,000
Matebo                                                 2,500,000                                    2,500,000
Mukumbi                                               2,500,000                                    2,500,000
Mumena                                               2,500,000                                    2,500,000
Kanyama                                             2,500,000                                    2,500,000
Ingwe                                                  2,500,000                                    2,500,000
Kaondes                                             2,500,000                                     2,500,000
Mungaila                                             2,500,000                                     2,500,000
Mukuni                                                2,500,000                                     2,500,000
Monze                                                2,500,000                                     2,500,000
Chikanta                                             2,500,000                                     2,500,000
Musokotwane                                    2,500,000                                     2,500,000
Moomba                                             2,500,000                                     2,500,000
Siachitema                                         2,500,000                                     2,500,000

Mr Chinyanta omitted some information.

I thank you. Oh!


Mr Chinyanta:  

Litunga Lamboela                            2,500,000                                  2,500,000.00
Mboanjikana                                    2,500,000                                   2,500,000.00
Grand Total                                 158,700,000                                    165,000,000

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr D. Mwila: Madam Speaker, I would like to find out why the Government changes Government officials who officiate at these ceremonies. I will give you an example, there was the N’cula Ceremony, the President went there, there was the Kuomboka Ceremony, the President went there, there was the Likumbi Lyamize, but the President did not go there and there will be the Mutomboko Ceremony on Saturday and the President is not going there. Why?


Mr Chinyanta: Madam Speaker, there is no standard procedure that we follow to have somebody officiate at these ceremonies, but sometimes, organisers of the same ceremony invite the Head of State directly, and if the Head of State is not very busy with other national duties, he accepts that invitation.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muteteka (Chisamba): Madam Speaker, I did not hear the hon. Minister mention ceremonies, but names of individual chiefs. I would need clarification from the hon. Minister on whether the money was given to individual chiefs or to the ceremonies which bring chiefs together.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Quality.

Mr Chinyanta: Madam Speaker, these grants are given to the ceremonies that are represented by the chiefs I mentioned in my answer.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simama (Kalulushi): Madam Speaker, in Mushili there has not been any ceremony, but K2.8million and K3million was given. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister who received this money.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chinyanta: Madam Speaker, to the best of our knowledge, the ceremonies were held in 2005 and 2006.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze): Madam Speaker, the K2.5million mentioned by the hon. Minister of Community Development and Social Services, is barely 1 per cent of the total cost of hosting the prestigious Lwiindi Ceremony in Monze. Is the hon. Minister considering increasing the funding and not basing the funding on the status of the chief?

Mr Chinyanta: Madam Speaker, the differences emanate from the fact that we want to recognise the seniority of these chiefs, but the bottom line is that the Government gives this grant to supplement what we expect the local organising committees to actually …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka): Madam Speaker, I would like the hon. Minister to, please, clarify because where I come from in the Southern Province a sizable heifer, which normally is the relish at these ceremonies, is approximately K3million. I also know that at the last Lwiindi Ceremony we had hosted nearly 20,000 people. Is the Government considering giving a reasonable amount or expunging this grant all together because it is a mockery?

Mr Chinyanta: Madam Speaker, I think we need to appreciate the little that the Government is giving out to these ceremonies. In fact, some organising committees of the ceremonies that try to use a lot of initiative raise very substantial amounts of money which help out in the ceremonies. In fact, as a Government, we are trying to discourage the idea of having many ceremonies among those who have the same tradition. We want to allow them to come together so that if we have to support them, we support them in one place, rather than supporting them in different areas.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kanyanyamina (Kanchibiya): Madam Speaker, how can the Government give equal amounts of money to paramount chiefs and junior chiefs and why did they give the money to paramount Chief Mpezeni when he wanted to hang himself during the land dispute?


Ms Cifire: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Order! He has already spoken, therefore, you cannot raise a point of order on him.

Mr Chinyanta: Madam Speaker, I think the hon. Member wants to express his opinion, but these are grants that we give and a grant is a grant. According to the Budget, these are the amounts that we can afford now. We give them across the board so that they are equal.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr F. R. Tembo (Nyimba): Madam Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether there was any ceremony at Kalindawalo in 2005, and if not, who used the money?

Mr Chinyanta: Madam Speaker, I think we will be more than obliged to give the hon. Member a detailed answer if he visits our office.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi (Luena): Madam Speaker, could the hon. Minister accept that the long list he gave was not, in fact, the list of ceremonies held during those periods, but a list of chiefs. For example, Chief Chiyengele, whom he mentioned, is in my constituency and I know that there is no ceremony whatsoever associated with that chief.


Mr Milupi: If that be the case, Madam Speaker, would the hon. Minister explain why some chiefs …

Madam Speaker: On procedure, hon. Member, …

Mr Tetamashimba: On a point of order, Madam.

Madam Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Speaker, is the hon. Member of Parliament for Luena, who normally speaks very well in the House, in order to mislead the nation and this House that the recognised Chief Chiyengele is in his constituency when that chief is in Kabompo where Hon. Kalenga comes from?


Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! There is only one Chair to pass the ruling. That is an issue which the hon. Minister will tackle in his response.

May the hon. Member continue, please.

Mr Milupi: Madam Speaker, I can confirm that I do have Chief Chiyengele in my constituency. That is why …

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! I have ruled against that. So, just ask your question.

Mr Milupi: Madam Speaker, if that is a litany of a number of chiefs who received these grants, would the hon. Minister explain why a number of chiefs in my area were not given as well. I have eight chiefs called Silalo Indunas.


Mr Chinyanta: Madam Speaker, the grants, which we are giving for ceremonies, are directed to recognised chiefs and not Indunas as such.


Mr Chinyanta: We have sixty-nine cultural associations that we are working with. They provide information on the kind of ceremonies they hold and the theme that they want to promote. Therefore, we support these ceremonies because we know that they have become a catalyst for the Government in the preservation of our cultural heritage and customs.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Quality!

Mrs Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I would like to find out who the money is given to in Musokotwane area since there is no recognised chief. Since our chief died, we have never held a ceremony.

Mr Chinyanta: Madam Speaker, in our ministry, we have information from the people who we are in contact with. In most cases, we have organising committees that come to our offices, even during fundraising ceremonies and other events that take place within the area. I am very sure that we can provide that information when you come to our office.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}


623. Mr Mbewe (Chadiza) asked the hon. Minister of Works and Supply when the following roads would be tarred:

(a) Chipata-Chadiza Road; and
(b) Chipata-Mfuwe Road.

The Deputy Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Tetamashimba): Madam Speaker, my ministry has no immediate plans to tar the road between Chipata and Chadiza because of its current commitment to tarring other roads which were started earlier, in some cases, as far back as 1995, and have not been completed to date.

Madam, the ministry is not able to start any new construction projects due to limited funds until the on-going tarring projects are carried out and completed. The roads of immediate concern to the people of Eastern Province are the Lusaka/Mwami Border and Chipata/Lundazi roads. We want to work on these two roads before we can consider tarring the Chipata/Chadiza Road.

Madam Speaker, with regard to the Chipata/Mfuwe Road, my ministry has immediate plans to tar it. The delay in tarring it is attributed to funds not being sourced at all. However, a number of co-operating partners, including the Norwegian Government, have been approached for financial assistance. The ministry has, in the past, provided funds to carry out periodic maintenance of the roads, including the tarring of the sections of the road in the hilly areas.

Madam, the section between Chipata and Chisengu has been included in the periodic maintenance of trunk, main and district roads by the Output and Performance-Based Road Contract Programme.

Further, funds were sourced from the Norwegian Government by the Zambia Wildlife Authority to carry out the maintenance of the road between Mfuwe and Chisengu although the works carried out so far by the contractor have not been satisfactory. The Road Development Agency has recommended to the Zambia Wildlife Authority to terminate the contract.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: Madam Speaker, I would like to remind the hon. Minister of Works and Supply that people of Chadiza and the Eastern of Province as a whole, voted wisely. They do not deserve this kind of treatment. We are requesting …

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!


Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! Hon. Member, you are only allowed to ask a supplementary question and not to debate.

May the hon. Member, please continue.

Mr Mbewe: Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that last time, he said that the Great East Road would be worked on this year, but he is saying that it will be worked on in 2009. Why has he done this injustice to us?


Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Speaker, thank you very much for the supplementary question from the hon. Member of Parliament for Chadiza.

Mr Sichilima: Who is crying!

Mr Tetamashimba: Yes, who is emotionally charged.

Madam, first and foremost, the Government does not come up with developmental programmes just because a certain group of people voted for it. The moment President Mwanawasa was elected to power, he was president not only for one province, but for the rest of this country. He has the mandate to make sure that all the areas are developed whether they voted wisely or not.


Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Speaker, as regards the Great East Road, if the hon. Member of Parliament would care to come to our office …


Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! Hon. Members, the Chair would like to listen.

May the hon. Member continue, please.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Madam Speaker, if the hon. Member of Parliament cared to come to our office, he would find that this Government had sourced funding for the main roads which the people of Eastern Province have been crying for. These are the roads going up to Mwami and the one from Chipata to Lundazi. These have been the roads that the hon. Members of Parliament in this House have been talking about, including the Mchinji Road.

Madam, I was in Chadiza and I know that the people there were crying for a hospital This Government has actually started building that hospital.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: I do not know what other developmental projects you want at the expense of other constituencies.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC: Madam Speaker, since the hon. Minister of Works and Supply has heard the cries and lamentations of the people of the Eastern Province, can he give an assurance that the tarring of the Lundazi/Chipata Road as well as the Chipata/Mchinji Road will start this year?

Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Speaker, first and foremost, I know that the hon. Member State Council knows that this Government carried out some feasibility studies on the roads going to his constituency. I am sure that is what he is interested in. I can assure the hon. Member that the hon. Minister, just this morning, was saying that he was going to meet the hon. Members from each of the provinces before we adjourn and …

Hon. Government Member: Abavotele bwino.

Mr Tetamashimba: … share information.

Now, in terms of priority, we want to be tarring roads at least in two provinces. Our priority is to work on the roads before the next elections. If, for example, we are going to have the Southern Province first on the list and I am scheduled for 2010, what matters is that the programme in 2010 will be as per agreement. When you meet the hon. Minister before we adjourn, be free to ask all these questions so that you can know how far your constituency is on the list, but I cannot promise that we are starting working on your roads this year. However, you will be telling the people that you have had the road tarred, I know, before the next elections.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Misapa (Mporokoso): Madam Speaker, I would like the hon. Minister to explain why he has failed to come in the open and itemise the roads so that we know his stance. Could he explain why he has taken us for granted.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Speaker, I think we need to congratulate Hon. Simbao for what he has been doing since he went to the Ministry of Works and Supply.

Mr Sichilima: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: First and foremost, for the first time, the hon. Minister decided that hon. Members needed to share information.

Mr Sichilima: Bwekeshapo.

Mr Tetamashimba: Secondly, the hon. Minister, through the Road Development Agency and the National Road Agency have been publishing, in all the three major newspapers, the roads that we have worked on and how much money we have spent. Each hon. Member was given a letter by the President that they need to be concerned about the moneys going to their constituencies.

Now, after that seminar, hon. Members stated that they wanted to have another seminar before we have the budget. That is what the hon. Members were telling us in that seminar. Since we are here for the next, maybe, twelve days or so, that is why I was saying that the hon. Minister has decided that instead of all of us sitting in one day to look at each province- I know that each province has the so-called Chairman of the hon. Members- we are going to sit down with all the hon. Members discuss which roads they would want, for example, to be worked on in a specific year. Surely, the hon. Minister deserves to be commended …

Mr Sichilima: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: … and I do not care whether that is part of commendation of somebody who has been doing a good job.

I thank you, Madam.


Mr Nyirenda (Kamfinsa) asked the Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development what measures the Government had taken to empower the youths in the country.

The Deputy Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development (Ms Cifire): Madam Speaker, the Government, through my ministry, has put in place a number of measures to empower the youths in our country. Some of these measures are:

Policy Framework

The Government adopted and launched the first comprehensive National Youth Policy in 1994. The Policy was revised in 2006 to incorporate emerging issues such as HIV/AIDS, streetism and others which were not included in the 1994 Policy.

The Government has also included a chapter on Children and Youth in the Fifth National Development Plan to ensure resource mobilisation for the implementation of the revised National Youth Policy. The Policy document, together with the Fifth National Development Plan, provides a number of measures and programmes to guide the empowerment activities of youths that are implemented by the Government and various stakeholders in the country.

Skills Training

The Government has established sixteen Youth Resource Centres to train youths at community level in various productive, leadership and personal development skills. These centres train youths in skills that are in demand in the communities where they are located for them to produce goods and services that can be consumed by the community, at a price, to enable the youths earn their livelihoods. About 4,000 youths are trained in these centres every year.

Madam Speaker, I would equally like to inform this august House that preparations have reached an advanced stage in transforming King George VI College in Kabwe into a model multi-purpose National College of Excellence in Youth Development in the region as part of the Youth Empowerment Programme.

Strengthening the National Youth Development Council

The National Youth Development Council is a statutory body created by an Act of Parliament No. 16 of 1986. The ministry has put in place a new management board at the council and its grant allocation has been increased from K174 million in 2003 to K550 million in 2007 in order to strengthen the operations of the council. The National Youth Development Council has the power to register and regulate the operations of the youth NGOs. The council provides micro credit to individual youths and youth organisations for entrepreneurial activities. It is doing this function through its foreign-based co-operating partners such as the Afro-Asian Rural Development Organisation that granted the council US$20,000 for the revolving fund. It also carries out capacity building programmes for the youths and through exchange programmes and training, in democratic leadership. The council works in conjunction with local and international partners. It is managed through a management board on which youths are represented.

Youth Resettlement Programmes

The Government has also taken deliberate efforts to target youths in the implementation of the Land Resettlement Programme. This enables youths to easily acquire land in order to participate in food production in the country. This programme helps to harness the potential of youths in the provision of food as well as poverty reduction in general. For their effective participation, the Government is developing linkages with other existing developmental programmes such as the Food Pack for vulnerable, but viable farmers under the Programme Against Malnutrition (PAM) to ensure the provision of agricultural inputs to youths, including street children who have graduated from the Child and Youth Empowerment Programme that my ministry runs in partnership with the Zambia National Service (ZNS).

Establishment of Youth Parliament

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to mention that the youths of Zambia have not been left out of the democratic reforms that are taking place in the country. Through the ongoing Parliamentary Reforms, the youths of Zambia are encouraged to develop interest in the work of Parliament. This has been done by establishing a Youth Parliament under the leadership of the National Youth Constitutional Association (NYCA) in partnership with the National Assembly of Zambia in all the provinces and at national level.

The impact of this should be seen in the increasing number of youths who have responded by participating in the last general elections. While actual research is yet to be undertaken, this could have resulted in the more youthful Members of Parliament that we are seeing today. This particular measure has proved popular among countries, especially those in Southern Africa where Zambia is considered to be a model for other countries to learn from.

Members of the NYCA have been interacting with youths of other nations to help them establish youth parliaments in their countries. It is for this reason that the National Youth Policy recognises youths’ Non-Governmental Organisations (NGOs) as Government’s strong partners in the delivery of services to the youths in the country.

Youth Empowerment Fund

Madam Speaker, in an effort to improve funding to youth developmental programmes, the Government has established the Youth Empowerment Fund which has improved the financing of youth developmental activities such as in 2006 when it provided funds for the following:

(a) Constituency Youth Development Fund;

(b) Youth Inventor’s Fund; and

(c) the Youth Empowerment Fund.

Madam Speaker, the Government has further provided K30 billion in the 2007 Budget as Youth Empowerment Fund in order to provide seed money for youths with viable projects. This is a revolving fund and it shall be given out to youth groups on flexible terms and conditions. These are some of the measures the Government is implementing in order to empower the youths.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Nyirenda: Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that the K40 billion given to the youths is just a drop in the ocean, considering the number of youths we have in the country?

Ms Cifire: Madam Speaker, the Government recognised the fact that a problem relating to youths would arise if nothing was done about youth empowerment. So, we had to make a start and we could not have done better than to make available, K40 billion.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kapata (Mandevu): Madam Speaker, I would like to found out from the hon. Minister when the K29 billion, which was released in 2000, will be available since, this year, you have released K30 billion. When are you releasing the K29 billion for last year?

Ms Cifire: Madam Speaker, if I remember very well, the hon. Member of Parliament asked this same question last week, if not this week, and the answer we gave then was that at the end of each financial year, the finances lapse and that is what happened. So, we are getting a new allocation in the 2007 Budget.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, the Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development, in 2006, which was an election year, introduced the Youth Constituency Fund. Immediately after the elections, they decided to abandon that purportedly good cause. What has changed for them to abandon the Youth Constituency Fund?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Cifire: Madam Speaker, unless the hon. Member of Parliament has different information, nothing has changed. The Youth Constituency Fund is still available.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Chanda (Kankoyo): Madam Speaker, I would like to found out from the hon. Minister whether there are any plans to revamp the youth training centres that were left behind by the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines (ZCCM).

Ms Cifire: Madam Speaker, at the moment, we already have about sixteen youth camps and our vision is to see that the number of youths that are given an opportunity to have these facilities increases. Therefore, we will be looking at the facilities left by ZCCM to see how they can accelerate the programme.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Mwenya (Nkana): Madam Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Deputy Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development the point of creating youth centres where we have taken the youths from the streets, who have completed the short training that they have undergone, only to be let loose on the streets without creating opportunities for them to be kept busy.

Ms Cifire: Madam Speaker, the whole purpose of taking them to youth centres is for them to acquire the necessary skills that will allow them integrate into society. So, when they leave the camps, they enter society and become useful citizens in the country.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Madam Speaker, can the hon. Minister clarify whether the Youth Constituency Fund is a revolving fund. If so, why is it that the forms that were designed by the Government do not provide for how those youths would pay back or if it is an interest-free grant not meant to be paid back?

Ms Cifire: Madam Speaker, we dealt at length with this question last week and I would invite the hon. Member of Parliament to come to my office in case he has …


Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Ms Cifire: … misread the rules and regulations. They are properly laid out and we could make available some copies so that we do not get into this problem again.

I thank you, Madam.


625. Mr Chanda asked the Minister of Labour and Social Security:

(a) what the current policy of recruitment of expatriate labour was;

(b) which specific jobs on the Zambian labour market could not be done by Zambians and required expatriate personnel; and

(c) what the Government’s policy was on equal pay for equal work.

The Deputy Minister of Labour and Social Security (Mr Liato): Madam Speaker, with regard to part (a) of the question, the Government policy on recruitment of expatriate labour is that non-Zambian professionals shall only be recruited to occupy positions for which there are no suitably qualified Zambians to fill them. This policy is promoted and monitored through the Zambianisation Committee, chaired by the Deputy Minister of Labour and Social Security. The core objective of the policy is to ensure that priority for employment and promotion is given to Zambians to ensure key positions in the economy.

The Zambianisation Committee works closely with the Work Permits Committee in the Ministry of Home Affairs, chaired by the Chief Immigration Officer. The Zambianisation Committee ensures that companies draw up succession plans and training programmes to ensure that Zambian trainees are attached to expatriates as understudies with a view to eventual takeover when they are ready to do so. On the basis of the success of the training programmes, the Zambianisation Committee recommends to the Ministry of Home Affairs, through the Chief Immigration Officer, for the Zambianisation of jobs that can ably be done by Zambians.

As regards part (b) of the question, Madam Speaker, in a few specialised fields such as engineering and medicine, there are some jobs that require expatriate personnel. When considering requests from companies to engage expatriate staff, the Zambianisation Committee involves experts in the field concerned to advise on the availability, and this is a key word. Availability of the local trained manpower before approval is granted for issuance of work permits. Even when approval is granted, arrangements are made to ensure that such expatriates train suitable qualified Zambian understudies who would succeed them when time is ripe.

On part (c) Madam Speaker, the Government policy on equal pay for equal work is to promote pay equality. This means that men and women of equal standing in terms of qualification shall be remunerated the same. This policy is in keeping with the International Labour Organisation Convention No. 100 of 1951, dealing with equal remuneration that Zambia ratified as far back as 1972.

The Government is currently working out modalities of domesticating these provisions in our current laws to ensure that we are able to equitably pay our people.

Convention No. 100 says each member, whether male or female. In fact, it seeks to eliminate disparities among classes of men or women or, indeed, between men and women so that the remuneration among these people, as long as they are workers, is of equal value.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Chanda: Madam Speaker, may the hon. Minister inform this House why this Government is encouraging exploitation of Zambians by sticking to a dual pay system.

The Minister of Labour and Social Security (Mr Mukuma): Madam Speaker, I am not very sure what the hon. Member means by saying dual paying system. What I know is that in the various institutions, there are payments for professionals and non-professionals, but there is no discrimination on professionals and non-professionals. Even Zambians are put in the category of both professionals and non-professionals.

The fact that they maintain two paying system does not mean that they are discriminating.

I thank you, Madam.

Ms J. Phiri (Luanshya): Madam Speaker, what measures has the ministry put in place to monitor the issuance of work permits by the Ministry of Home Affairs? I say so because we have seen expatriates being employed at the expense of Zambians and replaced by other expatriates.

There could be a job which was held by a Zambian, but when an expatriate is employed, he takes over from the Zambian. May I know the measures the ministry has put in place to safeguard our Zambian graduates from the universities who have suffered enough.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Mukuma: Madam Speaker, in our response, we have indicated very clearly that there is a Zambianisation Committee, which monitors the recruitment and employment of expatriates. We have also indicated that these organisations that recruit expatriates are required to have succession plans so that there are Zambians to understudy. We must appreciate that Zambia does not have all the skills that are required to drive our economy. From time to time, we shall still require foreign skills, but these are going to be monitored.

At the moment, they may appear not be effectively monitored because the Zambianisation Committee has got no legal powers. We are now, in our review and amendment of laws, legalising this Zambianisation Committee so that it operates legally. We are also hoping that, once this is done, there will be more monitoring and effective implementation of the succession plans.

In short, the succession plan and system are already there. What is required is just effective implementation.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, may I find out from the hon. Minister whether or not there are any exceptions governing the Zambianisation team so that they run by the rules that guide the Zambianisation Committee to issue permits to people that may not be deserving. I ask this question because, in Mazabuka, I have two specific cases that are true. Caterers - people who cook nshima, rice and chips - have been given work permits. Also, Till Operators - those who receive money and simply give change to people who buy alcohol or beer from Zambian Breweries - have been given permits.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukuma: Madam Speaker, there are no exceptions to the issuance of work permits. The criterion is whether we have local skills or not. I know that there are certain areas, maybe, where we have not yet touched and certain things are being done out of compliance. This is total non-compliance to the law.  Not that they have been given any exceptional rights for them to do that.

However, I wish to point out one issue that, once in a while, our colleagues, maybe those who have special foods which I think our cooks here are not trained …

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukuma: … I mean that is a fact. There are certain meals which are not taught even in our schools here, we must accept that. So, when such people come up with a strong case that they need their cooks here, even then, they have Zambian cooks understudying them. So there are no exceptional cases to this matter.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Sikota (Livingstone): Madam Speaker, I would like to find out whether any study has been undertaken in the hotel industry, especially, in our tourist capital to find out what the salary scales are for expatriates and comparing that with Zambians doing the same kind of jobs, and if such study has been made, whether the ministry is satisfied that the principle of equal-pay-for-equal-work is being abided by and if no such study has been undertaken, when it will be undertaken.

Mr Mukuma: Madam Speaker, there has not been such a study made yet, but I wish to inform this august House that a study has actually been initiated and consultants have already been engaged. We hope that, at the end of the study, we shall have full information about the labour market concerning who is working where, what conditions are given to them and what salaries are paid to them. That study will give us total control of the labour market.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, from the statement that has been issued by the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security, it would appear that the Zambianisation Committee is toothless. I would like to find out from him whether he is aware that in a number of organisations, the salary scales are determined by the colour of the worker?

Mr Mukuma: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member of Parliament is referring to racial discrimination. When salaries are determined by colour, then there is discrimination based on race. That is not allowed in our laws. Please, if you have such information, bring it to us and we shall deal with it.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Madam Speaker, I would like to …

Madam Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

Mr Mukanga: Madam Speaker, before business was suspended, I was asking whether the hon. Minister, can confirm that the Zambianisation Committee is toothless because it is now operating in a privatised and liberalised environment where it has no power to control these companies which have been privatised.

Mr Mukuma: Madam Speaker, the Zambianisation Committee may seem not to have power this time, as I have mentioned, because it is not yet enshrined in our laws to give it legal power. Otherwise, when it has legal power, there will be no institution that the Zambianisation Committee will fear because it will have the backing of the law.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Hachipuka (Mbabala): Madam Speaker, the Minister of Labour and Social Security, can the Minister of Labour and Social Security, please, explain to this House the linkage between the allowed investment importation of expatriates in this country and the Zambianisation Programme? Where is the linkage? In many cases, Madam Speaker, even cooks, as expressed by my colleague, have been imported under the Investment License. Where is the linkage?

Mr Mukuma: Madam Speaker, the importation of foreign expatriates is made on the understanding that the skills that imported into Zambia are not available here. In some cases, we may have trained Zambians, but they are few and not enough to go round. We allow the expatriates to come in on two grounds. First, that there is a shortage of appropriate trained manpower. Secondly, we allow foreign manpower to come in because of the need to have the transfer of technology in the areas where we are not trained as Zambians. We do this because we appreciate that Zambia does not have all the skills that are required to drive this economy. We may need to bring in expatriates to help us.

However, this is on the understanding that they are going to transfer the technology to the local Zambians. That is why there is a scheme of understudying the imported manpower in every organisation. My ministry, through the Zambianisation Committee, will ensure that these successive plans are rigidly implemented in various organisations.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

626. Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwenzi) asked the Minister of Home Affairs:

(a) how many foreigners were deported from Zambia from 2000 to 2006 and what their nationalities were; and

(b) how many came back out of those deported and how many were re-arrested.

The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Ms Njapau): Madam Speaker, the answer to that question is as follows:

 Nationality                                  No. of Deportees 

 Americans                                                      3
 Angolans                                                        16
 Australians                                                     2
 Bangladesh                                                    1
 Belgian                                                           1
 Brazilians                                                       2
 British                                                             6
British                                                              6
Bulgaria                                                           1
Burgundies                                                      5
Cameroonians                                                 3
Chinese                                                           2
Congolese Brazzaville                                    1
Congolese DR                                                 70
Danish                                                            1
Egyptian                                                         1
Ethiopians                                                      2
Ghanaians                                                     2
Greek                                                            1
Guinea                                                          1
Indians                                                          4
Iraq                                                               1
Italian                                                            1
Kenyans                                                      2
Lebanese                                                     1
Malawians                                                   6
Malians                                                        5
Mozambique                                                1
Nigerians                                                     5
Rwandans                                                  1
Senegalese                                                 6
Slovenian                                                    1
Somalians                                                   5
South Africans                                           10
Srilankan                                                    1
Tanzanians                                                30
Tswanas                                                   2
Ugandans                                                  3
Zimbabweans                                           13
Total                                                          221

Madam Speaker, it is difficult to know exactly the number of deportees who came back since they usually do so in disguise. However, during the period in question, only two cases are prominent, these are of one Congolese D. R. and one Kenyan who were re-arrested, prosecuted and re-deported. These people change their appearances in order not to be recognised.

Madam Speaker, the House may wish to know that these two people are back again in the country and have since been detained.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Sing’ombe: Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that the limited funding that the Government has made to the Immigration Department has resulted in poor record keeping? Since the hon. Deputy Minister of Home Affairs has mentioned that it is very difficult to know these people, is she aware that a lot of deportees have come back to Zambia using different passports and nationalities and have even established big businesses in the country?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Health (Dr Chituwo): Madam Speaker, we are grateful for the concern the hon. Member of Parliament for Dundumwenzi has shown. We are aware of the challenges we face in the area of immigration. One of the challenges is what has been cited, that of record keeping and the other is the documentation itself. This is why we have announced that we are changing to a new passport which will be very difficult to forge. This is in an attempt to make it extremely difficult for would-be deportees to come back to our country.

Secondly, we plan to increase the human resource in the Ministry of Home Affairs, the Immigration Department included. With these measures, I am sure we will make barriers in preventing deportees to return to our country. The major factor which will help us all is the vigilance by the Zambian citizens, themselves, because they know who is a foreigner and who is not. For us to be successful, we rely, to a large extent, on the citizens becoming security conscious and informing the Immigration officials about these people or any other foreigners in their locality.


627. Mr Simama asked the Minister of Energy and Water Development what measures the Government had taken to improve electricity supply to Chambishi town.

The Deputy Minister of Energy and Water Development (Mr Sichilima): Madam Speaker, Chambishi town is supplied by two 33kv lines. Poor supply of electricity to Chambishi is caused by the vulnerability of the Kafironda line to vandalism and under-voltage of the Chati line.

However, the Zambia Electricity Supply Company (ZESCO) is currently discussing with Copperbelt Energy Corporation (CEC), the owners of the Chisanga Sub-station, on the possibility of tapping power from it in order to improve the power supply to Chambishi by providing an alternative supply line. In addition, ZESCO is currently discussing with the developers of the Multi-facility Economic Zone on the details of the planned industries so that a new power supply network to supply these new loads can be built. This will ultimately improve the power supply to Chambishi town as well.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.


628. Mr Chimbaka asked the Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives when the cattle restocking exercise in Bahati Parliamentary Constituency would commence.

The Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives (Mr Kalenga): Madam Speaker, the Cattle Restocking and Stocking Programme is intended to cover all provinces of Zambia, which suffered livestock losses due to diseases. Due to limited resources, the programme is being implemented in phases and the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives has included this facility (component) in the Fifth National Development Plan (FNDP) and the National Budget.

Madam Speaker, the Luapula Province, where Bahati Parliamentary Constituency is located may benefit from the Cattle Restocking Programme during the Fifth National Development Plan period. However, the choice of an area to benefit from the Cattle Restocking and Stocking Programme depends on the assessment reports from the field staff in the districts.

In future, provinces and districts are encouraged to budget for their needs. These needs will be reflected in the Annual Budget. The Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives will continue to give appropriate technical advice to provinces and districts. I ask the hon. Member of Parliament to visit our offices at the provinces and districts so that his ideas and our plans can be incorporated in our Annual Work Plan.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Matongo (Pemba): Madam Speaker, following the answer given by the hon. Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives, which is clearly at variance with what the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives said last week, could he assure us that the areas that have not been affected by the foot and mouth disease shall receive cattle through the introduction process because stocking is restocking per se.

Secondly, could the hon. Minister tell us what has happened to the K1.6 billion Livestock Restocking Fund for the Southern Province which the hon. Minister and his Permanent Secretary have misappropriated.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives (Mr Kapita): Madam Speaker, I thank my very good friend, Hon. Matongo, for that good question regarding the Livestock Restocking Fund and of course the introduction process.

Madam Speaker, the response given by the hon. Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives is not at variance with what I said last week. This response is simply confirming what I said in this House last week. I said that the livestock restocking exercise is for the areas where most animals were lost due to diseases. We are trying to help the farmers in those areas to regain their lost animals. When there is no disease, then there will be no restocking. Stocking or cattle re-introduction will only be there when the time comes.

Madam Speaker, as to what happened to the K1.5 billion that is alleged to have been misappropriated, I am sorry to say that I am not aware …

Hon Members: Aah!

Mr Kapita: … I am not aware. I cannot lie to this august House. I promise to find out what happened and let this House know.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chisala: Madam Speaker, has the Government any plans of re-establishing the State ranches in the country?

Mr Kapita: Madam Speaker, I am thankful for the question from the hon. Member of Parliament for Chilubi. I said, last week, in this august House, that, I travelled to Kasama two weeks ago and discussed the question of the Mbesuma Ranch in Chinsali.

Madam Speaker, there is also a ranch in Mporokoso, and like I said, the ministry, as a wing of the Government, will not start the business of ranching. However, there are offshoots of the ministry such as the Golden Valley Agriculture and Research Trust and the Livestock Development Trust.

Madam Speaker, because of the need for supply of breeding stock, that is both dairy and beef, a need has arisen to re-think on the idea of re-establishing State ranches. I am both instructing the Golden Valley Agriculture Research Trust and the Livestock Development Trust to visit the Mbesuma, the Kalunguishi and all the other ranches, in an effort to establish breeding areas for beef animals.

Further, I mentioned that for the dairy animals, we have the Batoka breed under the Golden Valley Agriculture Research Trust supplying dairy products to Southern, Lusaka, Central and part of the Eastern provinces. For the Copperbelt, North-Western, Luapula and Northern provinces, we are establishing a farm under the Golden Valley Agriculture and Research Trust in Chingola.

Madam Speaker, the Mbesuma Ranch will also be supplying beef animals to four provinces.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mooya (Moomba): Madam Speaker, regarding the K1.5 billion for re-stocking, I would like to know if that statement is a Government assurance.

Mr Kapita: Madam Speaker, I have said that when I have carried out the investigation and received the right briefing on the K1.5 billion, which is said to have been misappropriated, I will come back to this House and give a report. For me, it is an obligation that when this House requires information, I avail it.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.{mospagebreak}


629. Mr D. Mwila asked the Minister of Health:

 (a) when a new ambulance would be purchased for Chipili Health Centre; and

(b) whether the ministry had any plans to construct a health centre at Mulunda Village in Chipili Parliamentary Constituency.

The Deputy Minister of Health (Dr Puma): Madam Speaker, the Government has budgeted for the purchase of ambulances and utility vehicles that will be given to each district to serve all health centres under its jurisdiction.

Further, there are no immediate plans to construct a health centre at Mulunda Village in the Chipili Parliamentary Constituency.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr D. Mwila: Madam Speaker, I would like the hon. Minister to tell us exactly when the ambulances will be bought, because the ambulance at Chipili Health Centre was bought in 1997 and it is old.  Is the hon. Minister aware that for the engine to start, the ambulance has to be pushed?

Dr Chituwo: Madam Speaker, I think we have been very explicit in our answer, that we will purchase ambulances and utility vehicles for districts. The funds have already been sourced and we are just waiting for authorisation from the Zambia National Tender Board to start the process because the specifications are very clear.

Madam Speaker, once that has been done, we shall be in a position to indicate when, exactly, the ambulances will be bought. The money is available for the acquisition of ambulances and utility vehicles for districts and hospitals, that will then determine to service the rural health centres in their jurisdiction. This is the assurance I give to this House.

I thank you, Madam.

Dr Machungwa: Madam Speaker, I am excited to hear that the Ministry of Health will buy ambulances and send them to the districts. However, in some parts of the country, the ambulances will have to be boats. Has the hon. Minister considered areas such as Luapula Constituency, where the only ambulance would have to be a boat? Is the ministry including boats in the purchase of the vehicles?

Dr Chituwo: Madam Speaker, I would have been surprised if Hon. Machungwa had not asked that question.


Dr Chituwo: Last time, we purchased vessels for these particular areas. However, in this consignment, I am sorry to say no provision has been made for boat-ambulances, again. Therefore, the hon. Member will have to wait until next time, because we have already bought some boats for his constituency.


630. Mr Kambwili asked the Minister of Community Development and Social Services:

(a) how many under-privileged school-going children the ministry had assisted from 2004 to 2006; and

(b) what plans the ministry had for the blind people at Fisenge Blind Settlement.

The Deputy Minister of Community Development and Social Services (Mr Muchima): Madam Speaker, the table below shows the number of underprivileged school- going children assisted between 2004 and 2006:

 year                                        Secondary school                                   Primary school
                                        Boys            Girls      Total                       Boys     Girls      Total
 2006                              3,683            2,678     6,361                   2,582       2,092     4,674
 2005                              2,897            2,361     5,258                   2,182       1,816     3,998
 2004                              2,242            1,965     4,207                   1,163       1,030     2,193
 Total                              8,822            7,004    15,826                   5,927      4,938    10,865
 Grand Total  26,691
Madam Speaker, the Fisenge Farm for the Blind falls under the Zambia Agency for Persons with Disabilities (ZAPD). It is one of the grant-aided institutions under my ministry. ZAPD has seventeen farm centres across the country, including the Fisenge Farm Centre. Though ZAPD has plans to revamp the farm centres so that they become more viable and elf-sustaining, it is, nevertheless, constrained by inadequate resources, owing to the bloated workforce it inherited from its predecessor, the Zambia Council for the Handicapped.

Madam Speaker, ZAPD has not been able to inject fresh capital into most of the farms because its grant ends up meeting salaries for its workers as mentioned above. However, with the assistance of the ministry, the agency is in the process of either retiring or retrenching the excess staff so that the agency can devote some of its resources to developing the farms and undertake other projects. Until that is done, ZAPD may not have sustainable …

Hon. PF Members: Volume, volume!

Mr Muchima: … capacity to operate these farms.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.


Mr Kambwili: Madam Speaker, according to the ministry, only 26,000 people were assisted when the population of this country is about 9 million. Is the hon. Minister aware that hon. Members of Parliament have now been turned into people paying schools fees for the underprivileged?

The other question is, what is the Government doing to assist establish Parliamentary offices in constituencies to mitigate the suffering of the underprivileged people in as far as education assistance is concerned.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Order! Could the hon. Member rephrase his question because it borders on discussing our conditions here?

Mr Kambwili: Madam Speaker, basically, I am saying asking whether the hon. Minister is aware that hon. Members of Parliament have been turned into people responsible for school fees for the underprivileged; a social responsibility which is supposed to be undertaken by the Government through the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services. What plans has the ministry to help the established Parliamentary offices with funds to alleviate the suffering of these people.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muchima: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member is aware that it is not the duty of the Government to educate children. It is the responsibility of their parents. So far, the Government is already doing so much in assisting vulnerable children from Grade 1 to secondary school. This should only be applied to those who are the poor of the poorest.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikota: Madam Speaker, going through the figures given for all of the years from 2004 to 2006, it is quite evident that more boys are being assisted than girls and this is consistently so for the years in all the categories. In view of the fact that the girl child is the one who is most under privileged. Is the ministry going to come up with a policy to assist the girl child more so that we have some affirmative action for the girl child?

Mr Muchima: Madam Speaker, in the census that was conducted in 2000, boys outnumbered girls. Actually, it is difficult to have a proportional ratio, but the ministry is aware of all the girls who are coming forward and they are being assisted accordingly.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


631. Mr Kapeya (Mpika) asked the Minister of Labour and Social Security when the retirement age for public workers would be increased from fifty-five to sixty-five years as demanded by many Zambians.

Mr Liato: Madam Speaker, I would like to inform the House that at the moment, the retirement age of fifty-five is provided for in the Public Service Pensions Act and, is, therefore, national policy. Other social security schemes are following the stipulated retirement age.

Secondly, when it becomes necessary to consider changing the retirement age, the determination of the retirement age is a matter that is subject to actuarial valuation, meaning that a pension scheme should determine the quantum of contributions and benefits payable within a working cycle. Then, the demographic profile of the country would determine whether the labour force requires an increase of the retirement age so as to accommodate an increase.

Madam Speaker, this is a matter that the experts will be addressing as the Government analyses the National Social Security Policy.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Kapeya: Madam Speaker, people retire at fifty-five years and are not paid their packages on time. When shall this ministry start convicting employers who fail to pay retirees their benefits on time?

Mr Mukuma: Madam Speaker, there is already a provision in our Act for employers to pay their employees at the time of retirement. Now, we are reinforcing our Act so that we come up with a specific penalty on the defaulters. So, I am confident that once we have the amended Act in place, we will have powers to carry out some of these provisions in the Act.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Syakalima (Siavonga): Madam Speaker, considering the fact that the Government is the worst defaulter in paying retirement benefits, how will you deal with this?

Mr Mwiimbu: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukuma: Madam Speaker, I have not clearly understood what the Member of Parliament is asking, but I believe he is trying to say that if the Government is defaulting, should we go to other employers to force them to pay. I think that is how I have understood his question.

The obligation here is not being met because somebody else is implementing it or I default because somebody else is defaulting. We must appreciate the fact that the Government has several other obligations to meet ...

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!


Mr Mukuma: … of course, including the payment of retirement packages. However, that does not mean that we should not request the other employers to pay.

Our ministry is sending the message to all the employers, irrespective of whether they are a private or public sector employer, to abide by the law. That is exactly what we are doing. As I have said, when the law is in place we shall enforce it and carry out strict measures.

I thank you, Madam.


632. Mr Imenda asked the Minister of Finance and National Planning what stage Zambia had reached towards achieving the Millennium Development Goals (MDGs) in the following areas:

(a) education;

(b) health;

(c) clean water and sanitation;

(d) energy; and

(e) road network.

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Magande): Madam Speaker, in the education field, there are two goals and two targets under the Millennium Development Goals which Zambia is tracking.

Madam Speaker, Goal 2 aims at achieving Universal Primary Education while the target is to ensure that by 2015, all children, boys and girls alike, will be able to complete a full course of primary schooling.

Since 1990, the percentage of pupils reaching Grade 7 has been improving, from 64 per cent in 1990 which was a by-the-way base line year, to 82 per cent in 2004. The target, by 2015, is 100 per cent of pupils to reach Grade 7. This target is likely to be met as the state of the supportive environment is strong. Only yesterday, the hon. Minister of Education announced that we intend to recruit over 60,000 new teachers. Despite the supportive environment in place, a lot more requires to be done to overcome the major challenges facing the education sector among which are:

(a) maintaining the current political commitment to further increase budgetary allocation to the education sector as clearly as has been demonstrated by this Government in this year’s Budget;

(b) improving the quality of education and services in rural areas; and

(c) mitigating the impacts of HIV/AIDS on the sector.

Only two weeks ago, we were told by the teachers that quite a lot is happening in terms of mitigating HIV/AIDS.

Madam Speaker, Goal 3 aims at promoting gender equality and empowering women. The target is to eliminate the gender disparities in primary and secondary education preferably by 2005.

Between the periods 2000 and 2004, the ratio of boys to girls has remained high, but constant in primary schools at an average of 0.97. In secondary schools, the ratio has decreased from 0.90 in 2003 to 0.83 in 2005 while the tertiary education ratios are 0.71 and 0.63 for 2003 and 2004, respectively. Females still continue to have lower literacy rates at 66 per cent against 79 per cent for males. The poorer performance of girls in the education sector reflects their lower participation rates in formal wage employment across sectors which stand at an average of 0.36 for the period 1990 to 2004.

Though the challenges are numerous, the Government’s introduction of free primary school education as well as the lowering of cut off points for females among other initiatives, including what the Hon. Minister of Gender-in-Development (Ms Mulasikwanda) disclosed to this House of readmitting girls after they have delivered, the possibilities of reaching this target by 2015 are very high

Under the Health Millennium Development Goals, there are three goals and three targets that we are tracking:

Goal 4 is to reduce child mortality. The target of this goal is to reduce, by two-thirds, between 1990 and 2015, the under-five mortality rate.

The current situation is that, this is one of the targets that Zambia has the potential to achieve because of the conducive environment. Although still relatively high, child mortality rates in the country have shown a decline. Under-five mortality was 191 deaths per 1,000 live births in 1992, increased to 197 deaths per 1,000 live births in 1996, but markedly declined to 168 deaths per live 1,000 births during the 2001-2002 Demographic and Health Survey. The target for 2015 is to have only 63 deaths per 1,000 live births and this can be potentially met due to the good supportive environment.

Madam Speaker, Goal 5 is aimed at improving maternal health and target six at reducing, by three quarters, between 1990 and 2015, the maternal mortality ratio.

Madam Speaker, maternal mortality increased from 649 deaths per 100,000 in 1996 to 729 deaths per 100,000 during the period 2001 to 2002 according to the Zambia Demographic and Health Survey. This is despite high antenatal care attendance and attention given to reproductive health programmes over the past years. The target for maternal mortality ratio is 162. Zambia is unlikely to meet this target as the state of the supportive environment is rather weak in spite of the exemption of pregnant mothers from payment of user fees and related costs. Among this weak supportive environment just to mention a few are the following:

(a) inadequate availability of midwifery and other medical skills at attendance and/or at delivery;

(b) inadequate availability of emergency referral services;

(c) high HIV/AIDS prevalence among women; and

(d) inadequate access to Intermittent Preventive Therapy (IPT) in prevention of malaria in pregnant women.

Madam Speaker, Goal 6 which is the third goal under the MDGs is to combat HIV/AIDS, Malaria and other diseases.

Target seven is to have halted, by 2015, and began to reverse the spread of HIV/AIDS pandemic. The status is as follows, according to the Zambia Demographic and health survey carried out during the 2001 and 2002 period, a total of 15.6 per cent of the population aged between fifteen and forty-nine were found to be HIV positive. This epidemic is at different levels of evolution in Zambia, with urban areas having a stable epidemic while the rural areas are yet to stabilise.

Madam Speaker, HIV trends were monitored using the Epidemiological Sentinel Surveillance System (ESS) using antenatal clinic (ANC) attendees aged between fifteen and forty-nine. Madam Speaker, ESS done in twenty two sites in 1994, 1998 and 2002 reported mean HIV prevalence rates of 20 per cent, 18.6 per cent and 19.1 per cent respectively. The HIV prevalence rate among antenatal clinic attendants dropped from 19 per cent in 1998 to 17 per cent in 2002. The target to meet the MDGs in 2015, stands at 19 per cent prevalence rate. Zambia is likely to meet this, as the state of the supportive environment is good. However, there are major challenges that need to be overcome in order to combat the epidemic. These include the following among others:

(a) sustainability of HIV/AIDS programmes and resources, especially in the absence of collaborating partners;

(b) co-ordination and leadership of HIV/AIDS programmes; and

(c) high poverty and unemployment levels.

Madam Speaker, Goal 6 in this particular Development Goal is to combat HIV/AIDS, malaria and other diseases. Malaria is endemic throughout the country and continues to be a major public health problem. It is the leading cause of morbidity and mortality among the population and affects, especially, pregnant women and children below the age of five.

Another disease that is causing stress on the public health system in Zambia is tuberculosis (TB). In 2002 the prevalence rate was 512 per 100,000 population.

Madam Speaker, under the supportive environment, the Government has adopted Intermittent Prevention Therapy (IPT) in malaria and TB. The Government has also adopted an Anti Malaria Drug Policy as a presumptive treatment of fever with coartem as the first line of drug replacing chloroquine.

Madam Speaker, on the question of clean water and sanitation, there are no specific goals or targets under the MDGs falling under this subtitle. However, we believe that the tracking of interventions in the goal on extreme hunger and poverty which is Development Goal 1 can shade some light on the situation of water and sanitation.

Madam Speaker, on No. 4, which is energy, there are no specific goals or targets under the MDGs under this particular subtitle. However, we believe that tracking of MDG No. 5 aimed at ensuring environmental sustainability can also help to shade some light on this particular situation.

Madam Speaker No. 5 is on road network. Under this particular subtitle, there is nothing under the MDGs and in fact, there is no related MDG that can be used to track our progress on the provision of  a road network.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Imenda: Madam Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether he is aware that currently, we have a huge shortage of clinics in relation to clinic to patient ratio and also that we have a big problem on the availability of medicines in clinics.

 With the prevailing situation, is he giving us an assurance that we are going to meet the goals by 2015.

Mr Magande: Madam Speaker, in trying to analyse our stage of development, we can use numbers that must be relevant. When we look at the population in some of the areas, we cannot judge that we will not reach some of these developmental goals just by taking the ratio of clinics to the number of the population. It depends on the health of that population and therefore, if the people in that particular area or locality, for example do not have HIV/AIDS, you cannot start comparing the population to the number of people who are attending to HIV/AIDS patients. I would like to say that it might not be appropriate to compare the number of clinics to the total population even when that population might not be afflicted the same way by any particular disease.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Chisala: Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has just given the answer that by 2015, the Government intends to meet the MDGs, how tenable is the statement when, in fact, some districts have no secondary schools and some have no district hospitals and the best example is that of Chilubi District.

Mr Magande: Madam Speaker, I just answered the question of comparison between a population and having no clinics. For all I know, in this year’s Budget, there is a provision for a hospital somewhere in Chilubi District.

The hon. Member of Parliament raised this matter during the Budget debate and we brought it to his attention. I do not know why, again, three months later, he is still asking the same question.


Mr Magande: Let me assure him that development is not static. If the people of Chilubi District are going to have a static population when we finish the hospital, perhaps, next year in 2008, it will accommodate them. For all I know, they are reproductive and they will be reproducing. Therefore, we cannot compete providing bed space in the hospitals with an increasing population. There is no country that has managed to keep up unless its population is also controlled like other developed countries have done. As far as we are concerned, we are on course and like was already mentioned yesterday on education, it is not only the Government to do provide these facilities, the private sector also have to come in.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Magande: Only in yesterday’s or today’s newspaper, we were told that a private university, Cavendish University has recruited 800 or 1,000 students. That is a private university. Therefore, amongst us, we should also do something in order to complement the efforts of the Government.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, having listened carefully to the hon. Minister’s answer, he seems to be subscribing to the fact that Millennium Development Goal (MDG) No. 2 will be attained by the year 2015. I would like him to tell me in no uncertain terms what he and his Government intend to do in the midst of the extreme shortage of infrastructure at the primary school level where his colleague the hon. Minister of Education not so long ago submitted to this House that, nearly half a million children countrywide fail to get into the classroom as a result of the shortage of Grade 1 school space. What mechanism do they intend to put in place to make sure that seven years before 2015 all children who will have attained the age of six or seven years, which is the age for getting into Grade 1 or into a classroom, will have school space?

Mr Magande: Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister of Education has been informing this august House of what measures the Government is taking in his ministry to create more school space. We are constructing new primary schools and in seven years’ time, if together, we all work hard, we can create additional space for all children to go up to Grade 7. It is possible we can do it, but if we become faint-hearted and say what happened ten years ago cannot happen in the next five years, then, obviously, we will not be able to achieve these goals.

The responsibility is not just for Government, it also for the private people. If we are able to provide all the spaces, but we discover that in the hon. Member’s constituency, the fishermen do not allow their children to go to school, it simply means two or three of those children will not be in school and so, we will not achieve the 100 per cent. It is also up to the parents to encourage their children to go to school. They should realise that unless they get educated, they will not be able to use even the fishing methods which are going to be more modern in 2015.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


633. Mr Ntundu (Gwembe) asked the Minister of Mines and Minerals Development:

(a) how many mining licences were issued to small-scale miners from January, 2002 to-date; and

(b) how many mining licences were issued to the following during the period above:

(i) Zambians; and

(ii) foreigners.

The Deputy Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr Nkhata): Madam Speaker, a total of 1026 mining licences were issued to small-scale miners from January 2002 to June 2007. Out of the 1026 mining licences issued during the period under review, some Zambians and foreigners were issued mining licences broken down as follows.

Year                                  Number of Mining                   Zambians                        Foreigners
                                          Rights issued
2002                                  182                                          170                                12
2003                                  220                                          207                                13
2004                                  246                                          235                                11
2005                                  134                                          130                                4
2006                                  149                                          132                                17
2007                                   95                                             85                                10
Total                               1026                                           959                                 67

Madam Speaker, the House should note that the sixty-seven licences issued to foreigners, only represent 6.5 per cent of the total number of small-scale mining licences issued from 2002 to June 2007. The direction of the Government policy is to restrict the issuance of small-scale mining licences to Zambians only as a way of empowering Zambians. The issuance of large-scale mining licences will be open to any investor.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Ntundu: Madam Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether the Government also looks at the issue of mining sites before they allocate these licences to the small-scale miners.

Dr Mwansa: Madam Speaker, what normally happens is that a prospective miner will identify the area themselves and then come to the ministry and ask for a licence over the area that is already known to them, but we do visit to check on compliance of various conditions that we attach to the licence.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mwansa (Chifunabuli): Madam Speaker, knowing that most of the areas where the minerals are found are rural and that they are under the jurisdiction of chiefs, what measures has the Government taken to consult these traditional leaders and the people before giving licences to individuals for mining?
Dr Mwansa: Madam Speaker, that is a very important question. We know that, for instance, when an individual is applying for a farm in a chief’s area, normally, they go to the chief first to ask for a piece of land before title is issued. However, when it comes to mining rights, there is no particular requirement for us to ask traditional authority whether we should issue a licence or not. On the other hand, that has created some conflict and we have now started getting what we call a “No Objection Document”. This is a letter from the local authority, saying that they have no objection to granting a mining right to an individual in an area.

Now, we are working very closely with traditional authorities. In future, we would like to enshrine that in the Law, that is, to consult traditional authorities before issuance of mining rights in their areas.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, I am aware that the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development knows that the entire country of Zambia is held, through Prospecting Licences, by not more than five international companies. What measures are they putting in place to protect the Zambians who would like to mine or prospect in these areas? I have in mind the fact that the entire Southern Province is under Albidon.

Dr Mwansa: Madam Speaker, it is true that most of Zambia is under licence, but not by five companies. It is probably, more than that, but it is true that most of the land is taken. However, what we are doing now is carry out a land audit to see who has a licence where and whether they are complying with the requirements that have been attached to those licences. I can assure Hon. Mwiimbu that by December this year, we will have identified a lot of free land because these companies will be obliged to surrender the land that they have been holding for too long, but are not doing much on in terms of exploration.

Madam, with regard to the issuing of mining rights for those areas that will be free, we will do that within a context of the Citizens’ Economic Empowerment law that we passed in this House. So, please, brace yourselves for applying for these rights, owning the mines and exploiting this mineral wealth which is yours and nobody else’.

I thank you, Madam.


634. Mr Chongo (Mwense) asked the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing when the water reticulation system, which was removed from Chief Lukwesa’s area in Mwense District over five years ago, would be restored.

The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr Kazonga): Madam Speaker, all the Water Supply and Sanitation Schemes in the Luapula Province will fall under the proposed and new water supply and sanitation utility known as the Luapula Water Supply and Sewerage Company to be developed in the entire province. The Joint Implementation Team (JIT) that should lead to the process of formation and development of detailed requirements for water supply and sanitation in the entire province, including Chief Lukwesa’s area in Mwense, will be formed.

Madam, the Fifth National Development Plan (FNDP) also addresses the requirements for water supply and sanitation schemes in chiefdoms in the whole country.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Chongo: Madam Speaker, taking into consideration how people are suffering where water provision is concerned, is the hon. Minister implying that the people of Lukwesa will have to wait for that long for them to be given the water that they need?

Mr Kazonga: Madam Speaker, I wish to state that the Government is doing all its best to improve, in general terms, water supply and sanitation in the whole country.

Madam, the Fifth National Development Plan adequately articulates all the strategies that we are using to improve the water supply and sanitation in our country. It also addresses the issues related to the Millennium Development Goals.

Madam Speaker, among the efforts that the Government is making is a programme which is known as the National Rural Water Supply and Sanitation Programme, which will run for ten years from 2006 up to 2015. This will also cover the period of the Fifth National Development Plan. In that plan, we are addressing the issues, particularly those in rural areas, of boreholes, and so on, to address the water supply problem. That is one angle that we are looking at.

Madam, this programme has already put in place institutional arrangements such as, at the national, the Ministry of Local Government and Housing, provinces, districts and community levels. All these institutional frameworks are trying to address issues of water supply and sanitation.

Mr Kambwili: Quality!

Mr Kazonga: This is not the only the effort that the Government is making. We are also developing an Urban and Peri-urban Water Supply and Sanitation Programme so that we do not just concentrate on rural areas, but also address the water and sanitation issues in the urban areas.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


635. Ms Kapata asked the hon. Minister of Health:

(a) what the ministry’s vision for the health sector was; and

(b) what measures the Government had taken to revamp the health sector so that the trend of sending patients for specialised treatment abroad was minimised.

Dr Puma: Madam Speaker, the vision for the health sector is to provide Zambians equitable access to a cost-effective and quality health care as close to the family as possible.

Madam, the measures that the Government has taken to revamp the health sector started with the reforms in 1992, whose thrust was decentralisation of health service planning, budgeting and allocation of resources, and a focus on preventive rather than curative care.

The innovation culminated into the introduction of an Essential Health Care Package, which defined the key public health interventions that the sector would provide within the available resources.

Further measures included the participation of the community in the form of Neighbourhood Health Committees in the management of health services and harmonisation of donor support in the framework of a sector-wide approach.

Madam, the above measures meant rational use of resources at the various levels of health care. That is, at the Health Post, Rural Health Centre, first, second and third level hospitals.

In order for the Government to reverse the trend of sending patients for specialised treatment abroad, the following have been established:

(a) Computerised Tomography Scanner has been installed at UTH;

(b) Cardiac Monitors have also been installed

(c) a Haemodialysis Unit has been opened at UTH;

(d) Multiple Chemistry Analysis;

(e) Cancer Disease Hospital which has modern ultra-modern equipment comparable to none in the world has been also opened at UTH; and

(f) Beit Trust Care Children Orthopedic Neurology Hospital in Mandevu.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Kapata: Madam Speaker, when is the Government going to improve facilities in at rural hospitals in order to stop referring patients to the University Teaching Hospital?

Dr. Chituwo: Madam Speaker, this Government has already started improving facilities at rural district hospitals through the ORET project whose major focus is equipping theatres, ultra-sound or diagnostic equipment and also retraining.

We cannot completely eliminate the issue of referrals. However, we have included in our plans the management of various disease components with the competences available at various levels. When this is done, there will be referrals only when there is a need either because of a lack of skills at a particular health institution or a need for equipment at the higher level.

Thank you, Madam.

Reverend Mrs Sampa-Bredt (Chawama): Madam Speaker, what criteria does the ministry use to select patients who should go for specialised treatment abroad?

Dr. Chituwo: Madam Speaker, I wish the hon. Member had listened carefully. Now, she is asking a question relating to the past. However, to bring back her memory, what criterion was used?

Hon. Opposition Members: ‘Is used’.

Dr. Chituwo: Is used!

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes.

Dr. Chituwo: Madam Speaker, for her information, again, we have in place, at the University Teaching Hospital, an ad hoc committee consisting of specialists. If it is a case that has to do with neurology, we have the lead specialist in that area who leads the team of physicians and surgeons to review the aspects of either skills or equipment and they recommend to the ministry for treatment abroad. The onus is on the specialised ad hoc committee which analyses, professionally, the cases that are presented for them to forward to the ministry. Upon that recommendation, the ministry facilitates the evacuation of such patients.

For now, we have a Cancer Diseases Hospital. The cancers, which comprised the largest proportion of our patients being sent abroad for radiotherapy alone or radiotherapy plus chemotherapy, will be handled locally. As we stated earlier, those who will be able to pay, will pay the full cost. However, being a pro-poor Government, we are cognisant of the fact that we need to meet the costs of those who are not able to pay.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwenya: Madam Speaker, when does the Government intend to abolish the discriminatory system of high and low costs in the Government hospitals that has lead to certain hospitals, such as the Kitwe Central, having no linen and patients sleeping on the floor whilst the high cost is very well looked after?

Dr. Chituwo: Madam Speaker, we do not intend to abolish the low and high cost systems for the following reasons. The revenue that is collected by the provision of high cost services goes towards the low cost to assist in the provision of various services and procurement of goods. The reason is that those who are able to pay should bear the full cost of care to supplement what the Government is providing in terms of grants to these hospitals. This is a good system.

From history, Madam Speaker, when we had a completely high cost system, we found that in fact those who were able to pay were able to access medical services at the expense of those who were not able to pay. In this provision, there is a choice for those who are able to pay and we utilise part of that money to supplement that which is provided for the low cost. It is a good system. If it is not working, it is just a question of local management.

Therefore, what is it we need to put in place to ensure that there is this cost sharing in place?

Thank you, Madam.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


637. Mr Chisala asked the Minister of Communications and Transport:

(a) when funds to unblock canals and waterways in Luangwa, Nsumbu and Iteshi Islands would be released; and

(b) when a dredger to open and deepen the blocked canals and waterways in Chilubi District which were blocked in the 1990s would be provided.

Mr Mubika: Madam Speaker, the ministry will shortly request for the release of the K700 million allocated in the 2007 budget to the rehabilitation of canals. However, it is worth noting that the K700 million will not be enough to cater for all the canals in the country.

With regard to part (b) of the question, the ministry already has the water master dredger in Chilubi Island at Muchinshi. The dredger, however, broke down and the spare part is being sought to make it operational, again.

Thank you, Madam.

Mr Chisala: Madam Speaker, since the Government has paid more attention to roads, would the hon. Minister state the root cause for the Government’s neglect of canals that play a very important role in as far as transport is concerned, particularly for people who reside in swampy areas?

Mr Mubika: Madam Speaker, I stated in my response that there was money to deepen the canals and open them up in the 2007 budget which is about K700 million. The money will be released. We got confirmation from the Ministry of Finance and National Planning. The problems of the people of Chilubi Island will be solved in the near future.

Thank you, Madam.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


638. Mr Imenda asked the Minister of Foreign Affairs how many Zambian Missions abroad had proved to be too costly to maintain and unprofitable to the nation.

Dr Chituwo: Madam Speaker, I wish to inform this august House that Zambian Missions abroad play a strategic role in the implementation of political and economic diplomacy. However, the Government’s major foreign policy focuses on economic issues.

Zambia believes that economic diplomacy should be used in the conduct of our international relations in the areas of investment, trade and commercial activities undertaken by our missions abroad in the realisation of Zambia’s national interests.

It is important to observe that realising our national interests in different parts of the world is a very expensive exercise. In this respect, the question of how many Zambian missions abroad have proven to be too costly does not arise because they are established, taking into account our political and economic considerations at bilateral and multilateral levels.

In this regard, the long-term political and economic benefits that Zambia derives from our bilateral and multilateral relations out-weigh the cost of establishing and running missions abroad. It is important to appreciate that the establishment and operational costs of missions abroad differ from one country to another due to climate and the standard of living considerations. For example, you cannot compare the cost of running a Zambian mission in Africa and that of one in Europe due to factors such as climate where you have to pay for heating in winter and the high cost of living.

I thank you, Madam.

Ms Mwamba (Lukashya): Madam Speaker, I would like to find out whether career diplomacy is being compromised in preference to political appeasement such that anyone from a certain political party who fails to make it in a general election or retires from public service is sent to a foreign mission instead of leaving room for more youthful and qualified personnel.

Dr Chituwo: Madam Speaker, career diplomacy has not changed. However, this august House must note that ambassadors and high commissioners are personal representatives of the President. They are appointed from the pool of career diplomats and this is why the school of would-be diplomatic staff is still operational. I think it would be unwise to throw away all our retired colleagues and think that they are useless. Experience is one attribute that one never learns from a classroom.

Mr Sichilima: Teach them doctor.

Dr Chituwo: Therefore, the mixture of experienced and young ones is for the good of our nation.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Matongo: Madam Speaker, I appreciate the acting hon. Minister of Foreign Affair’s reply, that it is matter of using powers to appoint ambassadors- I have no problem with that- but can he confirm to me that below the level of head of mission, it becomes necessary that we have technically competent people for the missions  to be …


Madam Speaker: Order!

Mr Matongo: … of a calibre that is not there to rest. Can he confirm the fact that two former cabinet ministers are deputy ambassadors in Washington and one is a deputy ambassador in Mozambique? Let us be honest about this.

Dr Chituwo: Madam Speaker, in fact, in my response I alluded to the fact that there is a need for technical competence and experience for staff that supports the heads of missions. I am not sure I subscribe to the hon. Member for Pemba’s sentiments that once one has been a deputy minister, then he is finished.


Madam Speaker: One of the characteristics of diplomacy is flexibility in leadership and we must exploit these attributes.

I thank you, Madam.


639. Mr Ntundu asked the Minister of Mines and Minerals Development:

(a) how many prospecting licences were issued from 2002 to-date; and

(b) how many prospecting licences were withdrawn during the period above and for what reasons.

The Deputy Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr M. Mwale): Madam Speaker, I would like to inform the House as follows:

A total of 152 prospecting licences were issued from 2002 to-date broken down as follows:

2002      9

2003     13

2004     23

2005    39

2006     37

2007    31

Total   152

With regard to part (b) of the question, one prospecting licence held by Puku Minerals Limited was withdrawn during the period under review because it was erroneously issued over another existing mining right. Within the period 2002 to-date, three prospecting licences belonging to Albidon, Equinox and Teal were converted to large-scale mining licences.

The House may wish to know that a response was given regarding the withdrawal of the licence for Puku Minerals Limited arising from a question which was raised in the House by hon. Kambwili. This was question No. 112 on Friday, 26th January, 2007.

The Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development is currently carrying out an audit of all the mining areas to determine the status of the registered mining rights. As a result of this exercise, it is expected that all licences not complying with the provisions of the law will be withdrawn.

I thank you, Madam.{mospagebreak}

Mr Ntundu: Madam Speaker, is the Government aware that some of these people who were given prospective licences do mine during the time they are doing this exercise, also whether there is any fund set aside for local prospectors.

Dr Mwansa: Madam Speaker, we are not aware that there is any company holding a prospecting licence and that they are mining. We had received a report about that regarding one company and we carried out investigations and it was found out that they were not mining, but still prospecting.

In relation to question two about the funds for prospecting, we do not have that. We want evidence if you are asking for a prospector’s licence that you have the capacity to do that on your own. We have won a fund for small operators for mining in relation to small operators, but not for exploration work.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Milupi: Madam Speaker, would the hon. Minister indicate the maximum square kilometres that the large small-scale prospecting licence would entail. Looking at what is pertaining right now, the areas being given are too vast which stops others, including Zambians from participating prospecting in mining for minerals in this country.

Dr Mwansa: Madam Speaker, prospecting for minerals requires a lot of land because you are not sure where you are going to find what you are looking for. So, the area will stretch thousands of square kilometres initially. However, at the time of renewal, they are obliged to surrender 50 per cent of the land so that it can be available to other applicants.

I thank you, Madam.

Major Chizhyuka (Namwala): Madam Speaker, in asking the question to the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development, I also take cognisance of the fact that the presiding bench has been gender positive this afternoon. 75 per cent was for the other gender, congratulations.

Madam Speaker, given that about eleven companies coming from about almost that number of countries, own the entire underground network prospectors for the mines today. Also that the mining agreements entered into are more superior to the Constitution, until around 2012. Is it not true that by far a large proportion of our country is now owned, not by us, indigenous Zambians, but by those companies that have more right to this Zambian land than the Zambians?

Dr Mwansa: Madam Speaker, I do not know if I got my indigenous colleague right …

Dr Mwansa: … when he said eleven companies owned the whole country.

Madam Speaker, it is true that most of our country is under licence of one form or another by large mining companies. Most of them are of international standing. However, as my Deputy Minister said in his answer, we are carrying out a very comprehensive survey than the audit so that we can free some of the areas that are under licence for allocation to Zambians eligible to do the mining.

It is a serious concern, and I must admit that if you look at the map today, you will find that it is in all colours that constitute various companies holding the licences. This is the reason why we are doing the audit because some of them have been holding on to these tracks of land for over the period of the licence allowed, and those licences, some of them have expired by operation of law. So, a lot of land will be freed; and please, do come up and apply. I want to empower Zambians.

I thank you, Madam.





The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Magande): Madam Speaker, I beg to present a Bill entitled the Appropriation (Amendment) Bill, 2007, whose objective is to amend the Appropriation Act, 2007 so as

(a) insert Head 51/04 in respect of the appropriation made by Parliament to the Maritime and Inland Water Ways Department and

(b) correct the typographical era in the amount of our appropriations met to the Zambia Mine Action Centre in Head 17/39

Madam Deputy Speaker: The Bill stands referred to the Committee on Estimates. The committee is required to submit its report on the Bill to the House by Friday, 3rd August, 2007.

Hon. Members who wish to make submissions or amendments to the Bill are free to do so within the programme of work of the committee.




Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that in accordance with the National Assembly Standing Order No. 98 (2) (a) this House grants leave for the introduction of the Private Member’s Bill entitled the Judicial (Code of Conduct) (Amendment) Bill, 2007.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Is the motion seconded?

Mr Beene (Itezhi-tezhi): Madam Speaker, I beg to second the motion.

Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, I thank you most sincerely for allowing me to move this motion. It will be recalled that on Friday, 20th July, 2007, I moved a motion to seek leave of this House to present the Ministerial and Parliamentary Code of Conduct (Amendment) Bill, 2007. That Bill is aimed at encouraging not only Members of the Cabinet and Deputy Ministers, but also Members of Parliament to make declarations of assets and liabilities.

Yesterday, I, again, moved another motion. This time, it was to amend the Anti-Corruption Commission Act so as to cover senior public service workers. This means that two wings of Government have now been covered, the Legislature and the Executive. The intention of the Bill that I propose to move is aiming at the third wing of Government, the Judiciary.

Madam Speaker, the judiciary already has the Judicial Code of Conduct, which provides for the performance and scrutiny of the performance of officers of the court.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours

Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, when business was suspended, I was just saying that the Judiciary as a matter of fact, has a Judicial Code of Conduct. The hon. magistrates and judges even have a Judicial Complaints Authority to which issues of their misconduct are reported.

I took very keen interest to scrutinise the Judicial Code of Conduct and I found that it is very good.  As a matter of fact it is amongst the best that exist in this part of the continent. Nonetheless, what it lacks is the provision for the declaration of assets and liabilities.

As I said yesterday, these Bills that I propose are not necessarily to suggest that the targeted officers are corrupt. Not at all. They are not aimed at stopping people from creating wealth. They are being proposed on the understanding that human society requires laws to regulate it. With the rapid westernisation and individualism which is sadly associated with our kind of development, laws are required to prevent, detect and punish those who would be tempted to conduct themselves corruptly.

Madam Speaker, judicial officers are the ones that are responsible for adjudication of matters or offences against the codes of conduct for parliamentarians, ministers and, now, for the Government service workers. As such, it is only fair that they too are allowed to remove whatever log could be in their eye before they judge others on the size of specks in their eyes.

Madam, in moving this Motion, I would like to state that I have the greatest respect for our magistrates and judges. They are doing a very commendable job for the Zambian people under very trying circumstances. It is trying because of the conditions of their work and all the influences upon them.

Many people have questioned particularly the delays with which the courts adjudicate matters of corruption. I would like to state, that as chairperson for the African Parliamentarians’ Network Against Corruption (APNAC), I have come to the realisation that some of these delays are caused because of the complexity of corruption issues. They are also affected by the quality of investigation and the quality of prosecution. They are also affected by the quality of preparation of witnesses.

There are numerous examples where witnesses in matters of corruption do not avail themselves before judges. These are some of the reasons courts are seen to be delaying in dispensing justice in matters to do with corruption.

I think that it would be honourable for this House to find ways of recommending to the Executive that specialised courts to handle corruption cases be established.

Let me now turn directly to the objectives of the Bill that I propose. The first objective is that a judicial officer be compelled to submit to the judicial complaints authority an annual declaration of assets, incomes and liabilities.

Secondly, it proposes that a judicial officer makes a declaration of interests in a contract that is made or is proposed to be made by the Government and finally matters connected with or incidental to the foregoing.

Madam, from the objects that I have read, it is clear that I am not in any way proposing that members of the court should not be allowed to create wealth out of their initiative. The only thing I am requesting is that once they have created that wealth, and because they will create it genuinely, they should therefore be asked to declare their assets so that nobody suspects another of having acquired wealth or money corruptly.

Madam Speaker, the arguments that were presented when I moved the motion for civil servants and when I moved the motion for parliamentarians suffice for this motion too. I, therefore, would not like to belabour such a non-controversial or contentious issue, save to appeal to my colleagues on either side of the House to support this motion.

Let me end, Madam Speaker, by appealing to Members of Parliament to feel free to debate this motion. It is one that affects all of us as a society.

Madam Speaker, I beg to move.

Mr Beene: Thank you, Madam Speaker, for giving me this opportunity on seconding the Private Members Bill entitled The Judicial (Code of Conduct)  (Amendment) Bill, 2007.

Madam, as has been alluded to by the mover of the motion, it is important that all the three arms of the Government are the same and all laws to be applied should be the same.

I want to mention that as leaders from the Executive, Legislature and Judiciary, we have the responsibility of making sure that the resources of the Government get to the ground for its intended purpose under the budget which this Government approves.

It is important that as politicians and leaders, we should continue to be relevant because at one time we will wake up and find ourselves irrelevant because the resources which we approve in this House do not finish the problems of the people of Zambia.

Madam Speaker, the people from the Judiciary are public officers. It is just necessary that this motion should be supported by all members of this House and out there the members of the judiciary and the Executive.

It is time now that we have to level the integrity and standards and prove to the Zambian people who we are to serve. This motion is not made for witch hunting to those affected, but it is a step in the right direction. It is very important that we begin this.

The Legislature has very high respect for our judicial system. We respect its high integrity and we definitely expect that we will have all the support from all hon. Members.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

The Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda SC): Madam Speaker, I can see that the hon. Members of Parliament are not very keen on debating this particular Motion.


Mr Kunda SC: Hon. Lubinda has been moving a series of motions of this nature …


Mr Kunda SC: …in the quest of fighting corruption. In principle, we have stated that we will not oppose well-intended measures. I must also emphasise that in this particular case, there was no consultation with us. Therefore, we shall look at the Bill very critically and also, make consultations, particularly, on the nature of the Bill and the provisions.

Madam Speaker, in principle, we support this particular Bill. I must also emphasise in relation to the Judiciary, Public Officers and even to us that these declarations which will be filed, pursuant to these particular laws, should not be abused. As Hon. Lubinda has stated, people, including Members of Parliament, are entitled to earn an income and acquire wealth through legitimate means in relation to the other Motion which was moved. We should encourage people, through their own initiative, to acquire wealth, provided it is legitimate.

We should not glorify poverty. If hon. Members of Parliament can work legitimately and earn an income, why not have any wealth, provided they enter into contracts with the Government. The only requirement is that they should declare that they are going to enter into contracts. This is just to emphasise on the issue of abuse. There are so many people who criticise us because they have a lot of wealth from the businesses which they are doing and they monitor corrupt practices. Surely, anybody should be earn wealth legitimately. Therefore, we support this particular Motion with that qualification or caveat.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, allow me to thank the seconder of this Motion. I know that he was doing it under a lot of pressure. I also would like to thank the hon. Minister of Justice for supporting the Motion.

Madam Speaker, I would like to say what I said yesterday. I am amenable. Members of APNAC are amenable to sitting with you and seeing how we can refine these Bills so that they address the intended objectives. I do not think these are Bills on which it is a fight between the Executive and us. These Bills are meant to ensure that Zambians can create wealth, but create it in such a way that they are open about it. People should be proud to own legitimate wealth and not wealth which they are not willing to declare as this is what is creating problems in our country.

Madam Speaker, some people have wealth of which, when you question the source, they deny having it. That is not a good country to live in. We would like to make sure that Zambians are given the full latitude to create wealth. Let them have as many cattle as they can, but when they are questioned, they should be able to say what the source is. I think that these motions are intended to protect each other. I agree with the hon. Minister of Justice that we should not abuse them.

It might be recalled that during the State of Emergency, only those who knew had broken the law were afraid. Those who were upright were not afraid of laws such as these. I therefore, would like to thank the hon. Minister of Justice and this honourable House for the support that I anticipate on this Motion.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Question put and agreed to. 

The Vice-President (Mr R. Banda): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to. 

The House adjourned at 1848 hours until 0900 hours on Friday, 27th July, 2007.




















616. Mr Malama (Mfuwe) asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing:

(a) how much the Government funded Mpika District Council from 2001 to 2006, year by year; and

(b) what projects benefited from the funding above in the district, year by year.

The Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mrs Masebo): Madam Speaker, I wish to inform this august House that the Government funded Mpika District Council as follows:

Year                      Type of Grant                                     Amount (k) 

2001                       General                                             40,816,000.00
                               Retrenchment  - -

2002                       General                                             3,500,000.00
                               Retrenchment  --

2003                       General                                             5,700,000.00
                               Retrenchment  --

2004                      General                                             23,500,000.00
                              Retrenchment  --

2005                      General                                             98,000,000.00
                              Retrenchment                                   100,000,000.00

2006                     General   1                                        20,000,000.00
                             Retrenchment                                  125,000,000.00

Madam Speaker, the grants paid to Mpika District Council in (a) above were not meant for projects. They were released to assist the council supplement its efforts in service provision and payments of terminal benefits to retirees and retrenchees.

I thank you, Madam.  


636. Mr Mbewe (Chadiza) asked the Minister of Lands when authority to allocate plots would be given back to Chadiza District Council.

The Minister of Lands (Mr Machila): Madam Speaker, the agency of Chadiza District Council to recommend allocation of plots was revoked because of a lack of qualified manpower to administer land. Therefore, the agency will only be restored when the council employs qualified manpower to manage the land allocation function and my ministry has been informed, accordingly, in writing.

I thank you, Madam.