DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE FIRST SESSION OF THE TENTH ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 1st August, 2007

The House met at 1430 hours

[MADAM DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

CITIZENS’ ECONOMIC EMPOWERMENT

The Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry (Mr Mutati): Madam Speaker, the House may recall that in May, 2006, the Citizens’ Economic Empowerment Act No. 9 was passed.

The Act was principally aimed at uplifting the status of citizens who had suffered marginalisation. It was meant to level the playing field and raise the citizens to a position where they could effectively participate in the national economy. Above all, Madam, it was meant to ensure that citizens have a stake in the economy, especially the women, youth and physically challenged.

Madam, the Government, in 1991, placed the private sector at the centre of economic development and put in place measures to ensure that the private sector is the engine of economic growth. However, local private investment has remained low and poverty levels have remained relatively high.

Consequently, in 2004, the Government adopted a Private Sector Development Programme (PSDP) aimed at creating an enabling environment for investment, infrastructure development and private sector-led growth.

One of the reform areas under the PSD programme was the Economic Empowerment Programme that was aimed at unlocking the growth potential of citizens and the small and medium-sized enterprises through business development support and empowerment initiatives.

It is against this background that the Government, in 2005, appointed a broad-based Citizens’ Economic Advisory Committee chaired by the private sector that was tasked to develop a comprehensive empowerment policy that would ensure equity and empowerment of Zambian citizens as they engage in sustainable economic activities.

The result of the Committee’s consultation with the stakeholders was the enactment of the Citizens’ Economic Empowerment Act in May, 2006.

Madam Speaker, let me highlight some of the key areas of the Empowerment Act No.9 of 2006. The Act defines empowerment as a broad based and multifaceted strategy aimed at substantially increasing the participation of targeted citizens at all levels of the population in the economy, fostering wealth creation and significantly decreasing income inequalities.

The objectives of the Act include the following among others:

(a) the establishment of the Citizens’ Economic Empowerment Commission;

(b) the establishment of the Empowerment Fund;

(c) promoting the empowerment of targeted citizens; and

(d) promoting investment through fostering joint local and foreign ownership of companies.

Section 9 of the Act establishes the Citizens’ Economic Fund aimed at supporting the development of broad-based empowerment programmes. The fund will be vested in the commission, but shall be managed and administered by various financial institutions and Fund managers.

The commission will in the next few months establish the fund and criteria for the disbursement of the moneys from the Fund.

Madam Speaker, the following are the key components to achieving economic empowerment:

(a) transformation of society in order to ensure sustainable development of human resource by recruiting, training and promoting local people to leadership roles in enterprises, and thereby building on the full potential of all facets of the economy;

(b) provision of access to capital necessary to start and build business and funding/loans mechanisms for investments;

(c) promotion of equity ownership and meaningful control and participation in the means of production, coupled with a supportive culture, sustainability and the legal framework to support the policy; and

(d) provision of good political and corporate governance by creating a predictable, transparent, consistent, accountable and enabling economic environment.

The Government will strongly encourage sectors and enterprises to develop Charters that will set specific citizens’ economic empowerment (CEE) targets and outline the plans to achieve them.

Let me now highlight the achievements made by the Citizen Empowerment Commission.

In September, 2006, in accordance with Section 7(1) of the CEE Act, His Excellency Mr Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC, appointed commissioners drawn from the Government, Private Sector and Civil Society on a part time basis.

The functions of the Commission include the following:

(a) proposing changes in various types of legislation for the effective delivery of economic empowerment initiatives;

(b) mobilising resources for economic empowerment;

(c) facilitating the development of sector charters;

(d) developing and disseminating business ideas; and

(e) monitoring and evaluating economic empowerment initiatives.

The Commission is in the process of establishing the secretariat and the positions of the Director General and senior executives have since been advertised in both the print and electronic media.

Madam Speaker, as a first step towards the implementation of the Citizens’ Economic Empowerment Act, my ministry launched the Citizen’s Economic Awareness Campaign in March, 2007.

The awareness programme, which was supported by the Private Sector Development Programme (PSD), was undertaken through provincial workshops and radio and television programmes.

The purpose of the programme was to educate the general public on CEE and ensure that the key components of economic empowerment are explained in order to promote awareness and inclusiveness during the implementation of CEE programmes. The programme was also aimed at providing a platform for developing a working partnership with all the stakeholders.

Madam Speaker, a number of challenges were identified in the implementation process of the broad-based economic empowerment that include the following:

(a) unlocking the growth potential of the private sector through business development and support and other empowerment initiatives;

(b) ensuring equal access to empowerment opportunities in the urban and rural areas;

(c) inculcating positive attitudes towards government initiatives; and

(d) transforming the mind set.

The main concern raised was that this was another Zambianisation programme that would stifle foreign investment. Madam Speaker, I wish to state that the Citizens’ Economic Empowerment Act is not, in any way, meant to curb or weaken the participation of foreign players in the economy. The Government will continue pursuing an aggressive investment promotion strategy and fostering synergies in the form of joint ventures.

Madam Speaker, the House may wish to know that the Government is not trying to resurrect the Zambianisation Policy. I wish to report to the House that a lot of enthusiasm was shown by the participants at the provincial workshops echoing sentiments that the campaign was beneficial and should be regular. Since the end of the provincial workshops, numerous requests for follow-up workshops have been received from various institutions, including the Bankers Association of Zambia, the Zambia National Farmers Union and others.

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, let me state that the Government remains committed to creating an enabling environment and incentives for the successful implementation of the Citizens’ Economic Empowerment Act.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the ministerial statement.

Mr Milupi (Luena): Madam Speaker, will the hon. Minister state whether the Government will introduce urgent measures to ensure real empowerment of a cross section of citizens. This should not only include the urban dwellers and the affluent, but also the rural folk and the poor to ensure equitable participation in the exploitation of the resources that are found in areas where the rural people reside and that their only contribution to this equity would be the offer of their land.

Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, one of the key provisions of the Citizens’ Economic Empowerment Act is to create an environment where the citizens meaningfully participate in the economic activities. The commission has been empowered to review the various legislation that will promote participation in economic activities. This will include issues of land, licences, concessions and so on so that citizens can participate more meaningfully in the economic activities.

I thank you, Madam.

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Madam Speaker, I would like to find out how soft the conditions of accessing the Citizens’ Economic Empowerment Fund are to enable women who have no collateral access loans to alleviate poverty.

Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, the definition of targeted citizens includes particularly and specifically women. Therefore, there will be preferential treatment in the access of the funds by women in order to enable them create and participate in the economic activities.

I thank you, Madam.

Dr Katema (Chingola): Madam Speaker, we heard from the hon. Minister that one of the mandates of the Citizens’ Economic Empowerment Commission is to source and mobilise funds. I would like to find out how much money has been sourced for the purpose of empowering the Zambian citizens and how much has been used in the empowerment so far.

Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, the starting point for the Citizens’ Economic Empowerment Fund is that in the Yellow Book for 2007, there were various funds voted for activities such as tourism, forestry etc. These will create the first core of the empowerment fund. Once we establish a secretariat, it will be able to assist in administering the funds. So far, no funds have been disbursed.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Ntundu (Gwembe): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has stated that one of the reasons for the introduction of the Citizens’ Economic Empowerment Act is to empower youths. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister why the Government has been inconsistent in releasing funds and, also, how he hopes this Act will achieve its objective since there is no fund for the youth in this year’s Yellow Book.

Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, it is obvious that there are various challenges in terms of releasing funds on time for the various activities that have been reflected in the Yellow Book, particularly for 2007. I remain confident that the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning will accelerate his efforts to release the funds, including those attributable to the empowerment fund.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Imenda (Lukulu East): Madam Speaker, could the hon. Minister confirm that the Tourism Credit Fund and the National Youth Fund will be part and parcel of the Citizens’ Economic Empowerment Fund.

Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, the intention and plans of the Government in Phase I for 2007 are that the various funds that have been voted, for example under the youths and tourism should be available to the Citizens’ Economic Empowerment Fund for access so that people do not get funds from more than one facility sand many people can have access to the resources available.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Muyanda (Sinazongwe): Madam Speaker, could the hon. Minister assure this august House that the Development Bank of Zambia saga will not prevail in the Citizens’ Economic Empowerment Fund. I am saying so because foreigners will borrow money by using Zambians as fronts, leaving Zambians who genuinely need the money with no access to the funds.

Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member was referring to what is referred to in the Act as frontic. That is the behaviour of some of our people to be in front for the purpose of borrowing and thereafter passing it on to another party.

The offence is at two levels. Firstly, if you want to be empowered, why should you have a front? Secondly, if you have a front, it is a criminal offence under the Citizens’ Economic Empowerment Act.

I thank you, Madam.

Dr Machungwa: Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister stated that one of the key functions of the Citizens’ Empowerment Commission is to ensure that capital is made available. Now, the problem is that whereas the poor cannot access this capital, it seems to be working, like my colleague Hon. Milupi said, for the rich or the bourgeoisie and those who can afford.

Is the hon. Minister aware that the very poor from urban or rural areas only go to borrow from micro-lending institutions whose lending margins can go beyond 20 per cent per month so that when you compound it at the end of the year, they are borrowing at something like 80–90 per cent return? What is the Government doing about this issue so that the poor can be saved from these kaloba rates and also be able to borrow at rates that are affordable, which go to the bourgeoisie?

Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, empowerment is not only accessing funds, but also includes job creation and access to markets. It is a broad-based phenomenon. It is not only access to funds that is primary in this particular issue. We must realise that not all of us are entrepreneurs. There is a perception that because the Government has created a fund, therefore, everybody must access it. As a result, people suddenly develop this entrepreneurship spirit which will not be sustainable

Therefore, there will be criteria for assessment of proposals for the purpose of sustainability and deepening empowerment. That is what we want to do regardless of where you are located, be it urban or rural. We have had lessons from the past where our own people have borrowed and never paid back. We do not want to go back to that route.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Silavwe (Nakonde): Madam Speaker, it has been very difficult for the youth to access the Youth Empowerment Fund in rural areas. I would like to find out whether the Economic Empowerment Commission is ready to set up offices in provinces so that the people in rural areas are able to access these funds.

Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, initially, we plan to have offices in provincial centres. Beyond that, we will consider going to districts. However, because of the administration cost involved in Phase I, we do not want all the funds available for the commission to be spent on administrative issues. We want the funds to translate into economic activities.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC. (Chasefu): Madam Speaker, could the hon. Minister tell the House whether a certain category of Zambians, such as Members of Parliament, who currently cannot access funding from the Tourist Enterprise Development Fund, will be allowed to access funding when this funding is transferred to the Citizens’ Empowerment Fund.

Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, I am not aware of any specific discrimination in terms of access. The criterion used is based on how sound the business proposal submitted is.

I thank you, Madam.

Ms Phiri (Luanshya): Madam Speaker, I would like to know what measures have been put in place for the physically disabled people, because most of the time, they are not catered for in these funds.

Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, in defining the targeted citizens, the Act includes those who are physically challenged. Therefore, in advancing the empowerment process, there is preferential treatment of those who are physically challenged.

I thank you, Madam.

Mrs Sinyangwe (Matero): Madam Speaker, whenever we talk about empowerment, it worries me. I would like to find out whether the hon. Minister has conducted a situational analysis, because no two situations will be the same. Has any skills training been conducted to equip people the appropriate skills to acquire and utilise this money, especially the people in the remote areas of our country? This is because programmes that are introduced do not go beyond the Bomas.

Mr Mutati: Madam Speaker, in my statement, I indicated that the commission would come up with a criterion of accessing the funds. One of the most important elements in the Act is that the Commission will liaise with the Technical Education, Vocational and Entrepreneurship Training Authority (TEVETA) so that the curriculum for training includes entrepreneurial training. Not all of us are born with an entrepreneurial spirit. Therefore, training is one of the components of the Empowerment Commission.

I thank you, Madam.

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QUESTIONS

703. Mr Mwangala (Nalolo) asked the hon. Minister of Health:

(a) when the construction of Shang’ombo District Hospital would be completed;

(b) whether the contractor had problems in completing the project and, if so, what action the Government had taken against the contractor for breach of contract; and

(c) whether the Government had plans to send a relief doctor to the district to attend to emergency cases.

The Deputy Minister of Health (Dr Puma): Madam Speaker, the construction of Shang’ombo District Hospital, which is being carried out by Tomorrow Emsworth Joint Venture, was programmed to be completed in May, 2007. The Ministries of Health and Works and Supply will be visiting the site with the view to reviewing the progress and will institute measures that may include terminating the contract. The team of officers is scheduled to visit the construction site within the coming week.

Madam Speaker, with regard to part (b) of the question, the contractor has had a number of problems in completing the works since the beginning of the works. The Ministry of Works and Supply is currently supervising the works and working out measures within the conditions upon which the Government shall make any recoveries from the contractor for breach, should he fail to complete the works.

Madam Speaker, the doctor earmarked for Shang’ombo District Hospital has already been posted and is the current Acting District Director of Health though he is still operating from Senanga.

However, he supervises all activities relating to health service delivery for Shang’ombo District. He also conducts a mobile clinic for Anti-Retroviral Therapy (ART) at Sioma, Nangweshi and Sitole health centres.

Currently, the district has plans to start emergency operations at Sioma which already has a theatre.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Mwangala: Madam Speaker, is there any measure the Government can put in place to replace the contractor so that this long standing project in the district can be completed? Secondly, is the hon. Minister aware that the distance from Shang’ombo to Senanga District Hospital is about 250 kilometres, without good roads or transport? The delay of the services of a medical doctor would result in loss of many lives.

The Minister of Health (Dr Chituwo): Madam Speaker, we are aware of the distance between Shang’ombo and Senanga. The issue that the hon. Member ought to understand is that, even the supervisory work that the doctor undertakes is only within the civilities existing in the health centres there. In the absence of an operating theatre and theatre equipment, the medical officer cannot offer services beyond that of primary health care. This is why we are concerned that the Shang’ombo District Hospital construction project is taking so long.

The other issue the hon. Member for Nalolo wishes to know relates to the replacement of the contractor. I wish to inform this House that discussions are on going with regard to the possibility of this contract proceeding. There are various reasons that the contractor has advanced for failing to complete the project by May, 2007. Our records show that the project was abandoned in January and the contract sum is K11 billion, out of which K8 billion has already been paid.

Madam Speaker, some of the works that have been completed at the site are the theatre, X-ray, Out Patients Department (OPD), some wards, mortuary and administration block. Some of these have already been plastered. However, only one the fourteen houses that have been constructed has been roofed. This project is also linked with a rural health centre that needs to be roofed. We shall only be able to know the way forward, conclusively, after the discussions with the Ministries of Justice, Works and Supply and ourselves.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Sinyinda (Senanga): Madam Speaker, I know that this project has taken almost six years without completion. How long does the ministry take to implement punitive measures to erring contractors? At the same time, is the hon. Minister aware that the longer it takes to complete the project, the more lives we are likely to lose because Shang’ombo is completely cut off from the rest of Zambia during the rainy season, which makes it impossible for the doctor to operate within the district.

Dr Chituwo: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member for Senanga knows that I am aware. Now, I do not know why he is asking these questions on the Floor of the House. We have discussed that before and we are concerned with …

Hon. PF Member: He wants to know.

Dr Chituwo: You are not the one asking.

Laughter

Dr Chituwo: Madam Speaker, we have discussed this issue with the hon. Member regarding the efforts we are making to ensure that this project is completed. We initiated this project. Therefore, this shows that we are concerned about the people of Shang’ombo and Senanga districts, generally. That is why it is not right for him to say that we are not concerned.

We have stated that, in fact, we have had difficulties. We are saying, as a contractor, was he not aware that he needed to mobilise all the building materials before the flood period? Therefore, flooding should not be an excuse for not completing the project on time.

Madam Speaker, I wish to restate here that by starting this project, it shows that we are concerned and we care for the people of Shang’ombo. However, once contracts have been signed, they should be honoured, if we make short cuts, then the Government will have to spend a lot of money to compensate the contractors.

Thank you, Madam Speaker.

AFFILIATED SPORTS ASSOCIATIONS

704. Mr Ntundu (Gwembe) asked the Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development:

(a) how many sports associations were affiliated to the National Sports Council, name by name; and

(b) whether the Government had any plans to lease the National Sports Council premises.

The Deputy Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development (Ms Cifire): Madam Speaker, there are thirty-eight active sports associations and two sports NGOs affiliated to the National Sports Council of Zambia as follows:

(i) Football Association of Zambia;
(ii) Zambia Tennis Association;
(iii) Cycling Association of Zambia;
(iv) Zambia Amateur Athletics Association;
(v) Zambia Amateur Boxing Federation;
(vi) Zambia Rugby Union;
(vii) Zambia Volleyball Association;
(viii) Chess Federation of Zambia;
(ix) Zambia Higher Institute Sports Association;
(x) Zambia Secondary Schools Sports Association;
(xi) Zambia Judo Association;
(xii) Zambia Pool Union;
(xiii) Zambia Basic School Sports Association;
(xiv) Zambia Basketball Association;
(xv) Netball Association of Zambia;
(xvi) Motor Sports Association;
(xvii) Cricket Union of Zambia;
(xviii) Zambia Golf Union;
(xix) Zambia Amateur Swimming Union;
(xx) Zambia Badminton Association;
(xxi) Zambia Martial Arts Federation;
(xxii) Handball Association of Zambia;
(xxiii) Scrabble Association of Zambia;
(xxiv) Zambia Ladies Golf Union;
(xxv) Zambia Bowling Association;
(xxvi) Zambia Amateur Body Building Federation;
(xxvii) Zambia Amateur Weightlifting Association;
(xxviii) Karate Federation of Zambia;
(xxix) Darts Association of Zambia;
(xxx) Zambia Hockey Association;
(xxxi) Zambia Softball, Baseball Association;
(xxxii) Zambia Universities Sports Association;
(xxxiii) Zambia Horse Association;
(xxxiv) Zambia Polo Cross Association;
(xxxv) Zambia Sports Fishing Association;
(xxxvi) Zambia Squash Rackets Association;
(xxxvii) Zambia Table Tennis Association;
(xxxviii) Archery Association of Zambia;
(xxxix) Edusport; and
(xl) Sport in Action.

Secondly, the National Sports Council of Zambia works closely with associate bodies as follows:

(a) National Paralympic Committee of Zambia;
(b) National Olympic Committee of Zambia;
(c) Zambia Professional Boxing Control Board; and
(d) Special Olympic of Zambia.

Finally, Madam Speaker, the Government has no intention to lease the National Sports Council of Zambia premises.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Ntundu: Madam Speaker, the National Sports Council of Zambia Policy is very clear. It states that the Government will release funds to the affiliates through the Zambia National Sports Council. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister …

Madam Deputy Speaker: Through the Chair!

Mr Ntundu: … through the Chair …

Madam Deputy Speaker: And face the Chair.

Mr Ntundu: Madam, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister, through the Chair, when the Government changed the policy of releasing funds to these associations through the National Sports Council of Zambia (NSCZ). Why does it release funds directly to the Football Association of Zambia (FAZ)? I have noticed that the hon. Minister has placed FAZ at the top because they prefer to release funds to it …

Madam Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, ask your question.

Mr Ntundu: Madam, why is the Government releasing funds directly to FAZ instead of through NSCZ when the Government policy states very clearly that the funds are supposed to pass through the mother body before being released to affiliated associations?

The Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development (Mr Namulambe): Madam Speaker, in the first place, if the hon. Member has gone through the National Budget, he will notice that FAZ is allocated separately and as such, the grants due to FAZ are given that way. However, disbursement of funds to other sports associations is supposed to be done through NSCZ. There has been a problem in the past because the Secretary of NSCZ was not properly appointed, but now the situation has been normalised and that channel will be followed.

I thank you, Madam.

Ms Chitika (Kawambwa): Madam Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister if the Government has any plans to rehabilitate the National Sports Development Centre, as it is in a deplorable state.

Mr Namulambe: Madam Speaker, my ministry is, in fact, seriously considering the renovation of the National Sports Development Centre in view of the expected hosting of the 2011 All-Africa Games. Besides, that is good infrastructure. I remember that just a few weeks ago, there was a similar question to which we answered that we were going to ensure that the sports centre is rehabilitated to acceptable standards.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Zulu (Bwana Mkubwa): Madam Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister why sportsmen and women, who are affiliated to NSCZ, are allowed to go abroad to compete in tournaments without adequate funds. For example, last yea in Botswana, our boxing team had no money and equipment and were just assisted by the Malawian team.

 Mr Namulambe: Madam Speaker, my ministry does not grant authority for associations to go abroad. This authority is granted by NSCZ and if there was a team that went without permission, then I think appropriate action is being taken against that association by the sports mother body.

I thank you, Madam.

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Madam Speaker, when is the ministry going to increase funding to the minor sports in view of the fact that they are the ones that bring glory to this country and not the so-called major sports. I will give an example of Esther Phiri.

Mr Namulambe: Madam Speaker, we are going to increase funding once they increase their activities.

I thank you, Madam.

PRIVATISATION OF PUBLIC PENSION SHCEMES

705. Mr Imenda (Lukulu East) asked the Minister of Finance and National Planning whether there were any plans to privatise the public pension schemes to promote competition and efficiency.

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Magande): Madam Speaker, there is no intention by the Government to privatise the current statutory pension schemes in the near future. Instead, the Government’s policy is to continue promoting the development of a comprehensive social protection system to address the needs of both the formal and informal sectors.

 Furthermore, the non-privatisation of the schemes does not hinder competition and efficiency of these schemes, as the Government has put in place the Pensions and Insurance Authority whose mandate is, among other things, to protect the rights of the contributors and ensure compliance to the Pension Scheme Regulation Act No. 28 of 1996 under a competitive framework.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Imenda: Madam Speaker, does the hon. Minister appreciate the fact that the parastatal nature of the Pensions Board enables the Government to borrow from it and fail to repay and further, management has failed to invest funds under Government’s control and in the end, the poor worker is the loser.

Mr Magande: Madam Speaker, I am aware of that, but that is just one of the pension schemes and there are other schemes run by the private sector. Obviously, the relationship between the Government and the public pension schemes is such that if they have a lot of money, the Government can borrow it. The Government does not pay back the borrowed money not because it is a public pension scheme. Only until last year, we had a debt of US$7.2 billion and it was not from Government-related creditors.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Kapeya (Mpika): Madam Speaker, could the hon. Minister inform this House when the anomaly of not paying pensioners on time will be normalised because some of the pensioners are paid ten years after retirement.

Mr Magande: Madam Speaker, I am unable to indicate when these anomalies will be normalised. In a system where there are 59,100 pensioners to deal with, you expect anomalies to be there always. Even on a monthly basis, perhaps out of 59,000 pensioners who receive their cheques, most likely, about 100 cheques would have been typed wrongly, and that is an anomaly. Therefore, I cannot assure you that there will not be any anomalies.

I thank you, Madam.

TRADE PARTNERSHIP BETWEEN ACP AND EUROPE

706. Mr Matongo (Pemba) asked the Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry what Zambia’s position was on the demand that the Civil Society in Africa, the Caribbean, the Pacific and Europe should exhibit a united demand for a fairer trade regime partnership between the African Caribbean and Pacific (ACP) and Europe.

The Deputy Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry (Ms Siliya): Madam Speaker, I wish to respond that Zambia is generally not opposed to the demand for the Civil Society in Africa, the Caribbean and the Pacific, and Europe exhibiting a united demand for a fairer trade regime partnership between ACP and Europe.

The current situation under the Cotonou Agreement demands the inclusion of non-State actors i.e. the private sector and civil society organisations in defining country developmental strategies and community support. To this end, Zambia has embraced this by incorporating the private sector and civil society representatives on the National Working Group on Cotonou as part of national consultations and defining of national positions.

The position advanced at the national level focuses on the need to ensure Economic Partnership Agreements (EPAs) and result in a fairer trade regime.

With regard to the African Caribbean and the Pacific, consultations at the ACP level have continued to ensure that the unity and solidarity of the ACP group is maintained on issues of common interests, which include the united demand for a fairer trade regime.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Matongo: Madam Speaker, firstly, the life of the Cotonou Agreement is up to 2020 and the Economic Partnership Agreement must be signed by 31st December, 2007. Are we in a position, as a Government, to sign the Economic Partnership Agreements when, in fact, we have other avenues to trade internally?

Secondly, is the hon. Minister in a position to confirm that, in fact, his negotiations are going on very well at the regional level? Can he also define the Community of Eastern and Southern African Countries (COMESA) and Southern African Development Community (SADC) in very clear terms?

Ms Siliya: Madam Speaker, in reference to the first question, I wish to inform this House that the ACP negotiations under the European Union have been going on since 2004 and were initiated in Mauritius. Much progress has been made in the negotiations. Zambia is negotiating in the Eastern and Southern African Configuration, which includes a number of countries in Eastern, Southern, and of course, Central Africa.

At the last meeting, the countries came up with a number of issues that were common to all of them. There is going to be a lot of pressure to negotiate the EPAs in the next six months. However, what is important is that, as a Government, we are participating in the negotiations very actively.

As regards COMESA and SADC, I wish to inform the House that the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry, through my hon. Minister, will be presenting a ministerial statement on SADC this week on Friday, 3rd August, 2007. We are also looking forward to asking for permission from the hon. Mr Speaker, that we present another ministerial statement on EPAs tomorrow. Once information has been provided, we can engage constructively.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Madam Speaker, in recognition of the fact that the EPAs have a bearing on current and future generations, the ACP and EU agreed on forming a Joint Parliamentary Assembly to which this Parliament sends a delegate. We have only four months away from the deadline on the conclusion of negotiations on EPAs. Could I find out from the hon. Minister why the ministry responsible for these negotiations has not started engaging Parliament to understand the contentious issues around EPAs and when they are intending to do that so that if they are, indeed, willing to listen to the civil society, they also ought to give opportunity to parliamentarians to voice their concerns on EPAs before the Government makes a position?

Ms Siliya: Madam Speaker, as a Government, we appreciate the importance of EPAs because they will affect the way this country trades in future. As such, we are carrying out wide consultations with the civil society, private sector, and of course, hon. Members of Parliament are very important in this equation. In fact, I am surprised that my very good friend is saying that we have not engaged hon. Members of Parliament when I have just been reading his statement on EPAs in yesterday’s papers.

However, this is the reason the ministry has decided to give a ministerial statement in the House so that we can engage hon. Members of Parliament. Currently, we are also engaging the agricultural sector with a consultant from the private sector in the EU so that we can all have a common understanding the impact of EPAs will have in Zambia, the region and elsewhere.

I thank you, Madam

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

TRANSPORT FOR DISTRICT FORESTRY OFFICERS

707. Mr Simama (Kalulushi) asked the Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources how many district forestry officers had vehicles for patrols and operations.

The Deputy Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources (Ms Tembo): Madam Speaker, out of the seventy-two districts manned by the Forestry Department, twenty-four had vehicles by 31st December, 2006. These vehicles are used for forest patrols and general operations. Below is a list of the districts with vehicles:

Province   District   Remarks

Central    Mumbwa  Runner

Copperbelt   Ndola   Runner

Eastern    Chipata   Runner

Luapula    Kawambwa  Runner
     Mansa   Runner
     Milenge   Runner
     Mwense   Runner
     Nchelenge  Runner
     Samfya   Runner

Lusaka    Lusaka   Runner

Northern   Kasama   Runner

North-Western   Kasempa  Runner
     Kabompo  Runner
     Mufumbwe  Runner
     Chavuma  Runner
     Zambezi   Runner
     Mwinilunga  Runner
     Solwezi   Runner

Southern   Choma   Runner
     Livingstone  Runner

 Western    Kaoma   Runner
     Lukulu   Runner
     Mongu   Runner
     Sesheke   Runner

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! Quality!

Mr Simama: Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that besides having a few vehicles, the monthly forestry provisional allocation of money is not enough to pay office rentals, telephone bills and even to buy fuel for the few district vehicles to carry out extension works and patrols? What is the hon. Minister doing about this?

The Deputy Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources (Mr Kaingu): Madam Speaker, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! Kozo!

Mr Kaingu: … the Forestry Department, just like any other Government Department, is faced with the challenge of budgetary constraints.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Kanyanyamina (Kanchibiya): Madam Speaker, I thank you for according me an opportunity to contribute. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what is wrong with the Northern Province, Mpika in particular where all the line ministries in Mpika do not have vehicles, for instance, the Zambia News Agency and Forestry Department. We almost had a calamity when a forestry officer was battered as he was trying to prevent deforestation?

Madam Deputy Speaker: I hope the hon. Minister can answer on behalf of all the other Government ministries and departments.

Mr Kaingu: Madam Speaker, I am unable to answer on behalf of the other ministries. However, as regards my ministry, in Kasama, Northern Province, there is a vehicle at the Forestry Department.

I thank you, Madam.

___________

MOTION

TRANSFORMATION OF THE SADC PARLIAMENTARY FORUM INTO A SADC REGIONAL PARLIAMENT

Mr Matongo (Pemba): Madam Speaker, I wish to move a Motion that this House urges the Government to support the current regional initiatives to transform the SADC Parliamentary Forum into a SADC Regional Parliament with full legislative powers.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

 Is the Motion seconded?

Mr V. Mwale (Chipangali): Madam Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

Mr Matongo: Madam Speaker, I beg to move that this House urges the Government to support the current regional initiative to transform the Southern African Development Community Parliamentary Forum (SADAC PF) into a Southern African Development Regional Parliament with full legislative powers on regional matters.

Madam Speaker, the Motion is non-contentious, non-partisan and straight forward regionally, continentally and it delves in correctly in the international scene. The motion could not have come at a most opportune time than now when Zambia is about to host the Southern African Development Community Heads of State and Government this month.

We need to put on record the fact that the decision is right not only for good democratic governance in the region, but also a deeper regional integration economically, politically and socially. This initiative will also form a stepping stone towards the mooted and generally accepted African Union.

Madam Speaker, allow me to first give a brief background on the history of the Southern African Development Community so that Members of Parliament would appreciate where we are coming from both as a country and as a region.

The Southern African Development Community was originally known as the Southern African Development Co-ordination Conference (SADCC). The idea to establish the Southern African Development Co-ordination Conference was conceived during a meeting of the Frontline Heads of State in 1978. This was followed by a meeting of Foreign Affairs Ministers of the region in Botswana in 1979. In the same year, the ministers organised an international conference in Arusha, Tanzania, that included donors, to discuss regional co-operation in Southern Africa.

The Southern African Development Co-ordination Conference was formerly launched in 1980 during the Summit of Heads of State held in Lusaka and attended by nine countries namely: Angola, Botswana, Lesotho, Malawi, Mozambique, Swaziland Tanzania, Zambia and Zimbabwe.

Heads of State and Governments signed a declaration to establish the Southern African Development Community and immediately sought to strengthen economic inter-dependence and promote collective self-reliance with a view to lessening the region’s dependence on South Africa which was then run by an all-white Government under the theme of Constellation of States Concept which would have dominated the economic, political and social atmosphere of the region. In fact, this dominance would have delayed majority rule in that country.

Those of us who were there fully understood what constellation of States meant. It must be noted that the call to collectively promote self reliance did not include the re-alignment of national, economic and political policies of member States. The member States maintained different developmental strategies. These created diversity in the way the Southern African Development Co-ordination Conference member States set their priorities in their national economic planning and development.

This does not, however, mean that the member States did things in isolation. For example, they, together, formulated the Southern African Co-ordination Conference Programme of Action which was a list of projects that was aimed at integrating the economies of the member States such as strengthening the transport infrastructure and sea ports in Mozambique so as to provide more secure international trade routes for Zambia, Zimbabwe, Lesotho and South Africa just to mention a few.

With new challenges emerging at the global level, the member States of SADCC decided to re-align their regional integration objectives so as to politically and economically strengthen the Southern African Region. In August 1992, SADCC was transformed into the Southern African Development Community (SADC) under a formal Treaty as compared to the declaration under which SADCC operated. SADC also set new objectives and undertakings that included the following:

(a) achieving a complement  between national and regional strategies;

(b) to have co-operation among member States in all areas necessary to foster regional development and integration on the basis of balance, equity and mutual benefit; and

(c) to co-ordination among member States in the rationalisation and harmonistation of their overall macro-economic policies, strategies, programmes and projects in all areas of development co-operation.

Madam Speaker, with these objectives in place, and realising that the member States were a grouping of democratically elected governments, the Heads of State saw it befitting to have some form of a Parliamentary body.

In this regard, the Southern African Development Community Parliamentary Forum (SADC PF) was established in 1996 in accordance with Article 9 (2) of the Southern African Development Community Treaty. The Southern African Development Community Summit of Heads of State and Governments approved the formation of a Southern African Development Community Parliamentary Forum as an autonomous institution of the Southern African Development Community in September, 1997.

SADC PF was primarily constituted to provide a vehicle through which parliaments and parliamentarians could promote the regional agenda in the Southern African …

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! The consultations that are going on are too loud for the Chair to concentrate. I would believe that this is a very important Motion that people should be paying attention to, and yet I do not know how quiet the consultation is if people can turn and speak to the people behind them. Can we please give a chance to the Member on the Floor and the Chair to hear?

Mr Matongo: Madam Speaker, SADC PF was primarily, if I may repeat, constituted to provide a vehicle through which parliaments and parliamentarians could promote the regional integration agenda in the Southern African Development Community region.

Currently, the Southern African Development Community Parliamentary Forum is a consultative body where parliamentarians meet on designated occasions to deliberate on regional and international issues. It is committed to the struggle for justice, democracy, gender equality, the rule of law, sustainable development and good governance in the whole region.

Madam Speaker, hon. Members in the House should note that membership to the Southern African Development Parliamentary Forum is open to all national assemblies or parliaments whose countries are members of the Southern African Development Community.

Madam Speaker, currently, the Southern African Development Community brings together Parliamentary Forum parliamentarians from the following member States:

(a) Angola;

(b) Mauritius;

(c) The Democratic Republic of Congo;

(d) Lesotho;

(e) Malawi;

(f) Botswana;

(g) Mozambique;

(h) Namibia;

(i) South Africa;

(j) Swaziland;

(k) Tanzania;

(l) Zambia; and

(m) Zimbabwe, a region with a population of over a hundred million people.

Madam Speaker, the Southern African Development Parliamentary Forum consists of Presiding Officers and four representatives elected or designated by each national parliament with equitable representation of women and political parties that are represented in the respective parliaments.

Zambia is represented on the forum by the hon. Mr Speaker and four Members of Parliament from the Movement for Multi Party Democracy (MMD), the Patriotic Front (PF) and the United Party for National Development (UPND).

The Southern African Development Community Parliamentary Forum’s five-year Strategic Plan, 2000-2005 set a period of up to five years from 2000 for the establishment of the Southern African Community Regional Assembly. In this regard, the Plenary Assembly of the Southern Africa Development Community Parliamentary Forum had resolved to transform the forum into a Southern African Development Community Regional Parliament with full legislative affairs.

Madam Speaker, Zambian hosts the 27th Southern African Community Ordinary Summit of the Heads of State and Governments in Lusaka this month and ascends to the leadership of the Southern African Development Community. It is, therefore, important that the country lives behind the legacy in which His Excellency, State President, Mr Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC, will be remembered by ensuring, like we did remember Dr Kaunda, that important pronouncements are made at such an august Summit regarding the regional integration agenda of our community. One such pronouncements on the Table, I am informed at this august Summit of Heads of State and Governments, shall be the proposal to establish a Southern African Development Community Regional Parliament and for a declaration to be made at that level in principle for the establishment of this Parliament.

Madam Speaker, the declaration should set a specific timetable for the transformation of the Southern African Development Community Parliamentary Forum into a regional legislative assembly. It would be appropriate and within its powers for the fourth coming august Summit to determine such a timetable.

Madam Speaker, the Southern African Region is currently the only region without a regional legislature. The Eastern and Western African regions have already established such parliaments to advance common values, mission objectives and in their respect for communities agreed to create blocks for the stated African Union. It is my hope that this decision we are taking today will, in fact, enhance the creation of a third and forth block for the establishment of the African Union.

Madam Speaker, the ECOWAS Parliament was established in 2002, while the newly revived East African Community established its Legislative Assembly (EALA) in November, 2001. Even the Horn of Africa has now a parliamentary structure of the Inter-Government Authority on Development ((IGAD). The emphasis for all these regional parliaments is development and I would like the hon. Members to note that.

 The Southern African Development Community Parliament should therefore, bridge the gap between the national and continental levels, where there does not seem to be a structural linkage between the regional economic and parliamentary structures and continental structures.

Madam Speaker, the transformation of the forum into a parliament will no doubt strengthen the activities of the Southern African Community and accelerate the regional integration agenda of the Southern African Development Community The principal rule of the SADC Parliament would be to oversee the work of the Community institutions on the lines of the European Parliament and other such organisations in the world.

Parliamentarians in the Southern African Community Region hold the view that one of the major ways of accelerating the ratification and domestication of Southern African Development Community Protocols would be through the empowerment of the proposed Southern African Community Parliament to enact regional laws as determined by the respective Heads of State at the appropriate time.

Madam Speaker, allow me to touch on the issues of the economy before I conclude this Motion. The economic benefits of having a parliament in place with full legislative powers cannot be overemphasised. The Southern African Development Community Protocols cover almost every aspect of our regional development such as economic governance, including trade, peace and security, good governance, socio-cultural affairs and natural resources management. If the contents of all the twenty-seven Southern African Development Community Protocols were to be implemented, the rich resource endowments of the region could well be translated into the much-needed economic development so as to enable us fight poverty at a regional level.

Madam Speaker, with a fully-fledged regional parliament in place, parliamentary oversight in the Southern African Development Community Region would be widened, leading to better economic management in the region. Better economic management may come with a more efficient and effective provision of products and services in the region as we see in other regions such as the European Union. An example is the policy on coherence for international service providers such as MTN and Celtel.

With better integrated Information and Communication Technology (ICT) regional policies, the service providers may opt to interlink their sister companies in the region for further expansion and profiteering, leading to economies of scale. The users, on the other hand, may lessen the inconvenience of changing their Sim cards every time they moved from one Southern African Development Community State to the other or indeed, they may not be required to spend as much money as they currently do on international roaming. There are also several projects in the Southern African Development Community Sub-Region that cut across two or more countries. These are bridges, roads, railways, shared water and energy resources, regional educational and health facilities, defence, security and intelligence networks and wildlife conservation projects, to mention just a few.

All these are benefits of a well integrated network or policies which may only be derived from well-implemented regional integration protocols. I must hasten to say that without parliamentary oversight, such integration may not be possible. While the region, the continent and the world is moving, Zambia must double its steps, for the world shall not wait for us.

Madam Speaker, the saying that two heads are better than one may also be true in matters of economics such as the current economic partnership agreements that the ACP countries are negotiating with the European Union. This is especially true of the developing countries and small economies such as Zambia. Standing up to negotiate against big regional blocks such as the EU, single-handedly, may not be viable and beneficial to the country.

Least developed and developing countries face similar problems or inadequacies when it comes to trade negotiations, but with collective negotiations, these inadequacies could be overcome. This is why current negotiations have taken the form of regional and sub-regional dimensions whereby the ACP counties are negotiating under six regions with the EU. Zambia is negotiating under the Eastern and Southern African (ESA) Configuration (COMESA). If we had a united Africa, we would be dealing with one region, but we are dealing with six.

Madam Speaker, it is, therefore helpful that a small country becomes a member of a regional trading block so as to increase its bargaining power in multilateral trade negotiations.

Furthermore, apart from enjoying the welfare gains associated with free trade, small economies could harmonise their economic policies with those of larger economies and could gain momentum in reforming their economic systems.

With a fully fledged regional Parliament, it would be possible to put in place legislation that would allow MPs to participate in these complex trade negotiations so as to increase the negotiating capabilities of the least developed and developing countries.

It is in our interest, on a non-partisan basis, to accept the way forward. It would be sad, if regional development is left to the Executives of our respective countries, for parliaments should be involved at all levels. This kind if integration would result in the ratification and accession to regional, continental and international instruments because they will be supported by elected representatives of the people, making it easy for implementation. This gap, which needs to be filled as a matter of urgency in order to appreciate the facts of the need for this participation, is of paramount importance.

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, allow me to state that the decision to transform the Southern African Development Community Parliamentary Forum into a Parliament with full legislative powers is long overdue, not only to the Pan Africanists, but to the newly born, for they will have a better future in a larger economy. Through this House, I wish to join the many voices in the region that would like to see their bread and butter, and lay their nshima and kapenta on the tables that are calling for a speedy, but steady completion of this exercise.

Madam Speaker, I beg to move.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Deputy Speaker: Does the Seconder wish to speak now or later?

Mr V. Mwale (Chipangali): Now, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, I am grateful to be accorded the privilege of seconding the Motion to support the transformation of the current SADC Parliamentary Forum into a SADC Regional Parliament.

Allow me to congratulate the mover of the Motion for his clarity and eloquence in the manner in which he presented it. This is a good Motion that needs to be supported by all hon. Members.

I wish to begin by commending the mover of the Motion for outlining the objectives and principles for which the SADC-PF was founded. I only hope that the objectives of the co-operation among member countries in all areas necessary to foster regional development and integration will be realised in the long term.

Madam Speaker, in my speech, I will try to elaborate specific issues that I feel need the serious attention of the SADC member countries before the SADC-PF is transformed into a SADC Regional Parliament.

It is good to note that SADC recognises the importance of harmonising macro-economic policies, strategies, programmes and projects in all areas of co-operation. However, if the current weaknesses stemming from conflicting and overlapping regional trade agendas are not addressed, then the conclusion of the economic partnership agreements risks undermining the development of regional markets, further.

To begin with, the SADC member States do not speak with one voice because some of them belong to other regional economic groupings. The other concern has to do with inconsistencies among the regional economic groupings such as the rules of the origin and quality of standard for most of our goods that are produced in the region.

SADC needs to address these inconsistencies that hinder the full integration of the region into the global economy. While I support the creation of a regional Parliament, it will be important to provide sufficient investments to strengthen the competitiveness and supply-side capacity of SADC countries.

Madam Speaker, the SADC-PF was constituted to provide a platform through which parliamentarians can engage in promoting the regional integration agenda in the SADC region. However, it is saddening to note that the majority of parliaments in the region are being brought into trade negotiations rather too late, when these negotiations are almost coming to an end. Parliamentarians must be actively engaged in designing developmental trade agreements and articulating development policies that have far-reaching implications on the welfare of the people they represent.

Madam Speaker, even if a fully fledged regional parliament was constituted today, it would be meaningless unless appropriate legislation was enacted to allow members have more impetus to compel national governments to implement regional protocols. The proposed SADC Regional Parliament should ensure that the parliaments are not used as rubber stamps of decisions that are made by the Executive.

The Regional Parliament should come up with legally binding instruments that would be more effective in aligning national legislation with regional and international governmental agreements. In addition, these instruments must provide clear targets and indicators to enhance accountability and monitoring mechanisms specific to the SADC Region.

Madam Speaker, I beg to second.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Madam Speaker, I will be very brief.

Madam, I would like to thank my colleague, Hon. Matongo, and, also, his seconder for moving this motion which is quite important.

I wish to say that I have some reservations with this motion that is urging the Government to support the current regional initiatives to transform the SADC Parliamentary Forum into a SADC Regional Parliament with full legislative powers.

Madam Speaker, whereas I fully support and laud the goals of trying to integrate the region and eventually, coming up with a continental State as espoused by the African Union, it is very difficult at this juncture to try and come up with a parliament that will have legislative powers over the thirteen or fourteen States, if you include Seychelles.

Mr Kambwili: Hear, hear!

Dr Machungwa: Right now, our Government has to pay for membership to the UN and its various agencies. We also have to pay for membership to the African Union, the SADC and the list is endless. In fact, this means quite a lot, because it takes away money for the development of our constituencies and regions.

Mr Kambwili: Hear, hear!

Dr Machungwa: In any case, we must look at the issue of the legislative sovereignty of the national parliament.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Dr Machungwa: When you say that we are going to give this Parliament legislative power when we are not a federal State, what is going to happen, for example, if President Mugabe decides not to hold elections? Whereas, the SADC Parliamentary Forum must continue to push and champion the causes of integration so that we reach a stage where we can actually integrate, it is very difficult to support a motion which is going to give full legislative powers to a regional parliament. You have to look at the differences in the economic levels and political systems of the countries in the region. At this stage, it is not possible to move forward.

Madam Speaker, for the same reason, when the Heads of State were debating in Ghana recently, they could not agree on a motion which was put forward by President Muamar Gaddafi that we should integrate into one government immediately. Whereas they did not reject that position in the long run, they were looking at the difficulties involved in trying to get together and form a continental government. For the same reasons, we have to take this with reservation, wait and continue to integrate our systems and work closely until such a time comes when we can be comfortable enough to have a regional parliament that would have full legislative powers. Otherwise, it will not work at this juncture.

I thank you Madam Speaker.

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Magande): Madam Speaker, I rise to debate this very important motion before we recommend the Government to support the turning of the SADC Parliamentary Forum into a SADC Regional Parliament with full legislative powers.

Madam Speaker, the Zambian Government, under the current Mwanawasa Administration, is committed to regional integration.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Magande: We believe that in numbers, we can get strength. We also believe that working together with our neighbours, will facilitate our development. As a landlocked country, we believe that working together, we can develop connectivity in terms of infrastructure. That is why this month, Zambia is going to host the SADC Summit. At that summit, President Mwanawasa will become Head of SADC. This will indicate our commitment to regional integration.

Madam Speaker, the Motion before us is to turn the Forum, which has been in existence for some time, into a fully fledged parliament. Our support to the Forum has been exemplary. Zambia supported the secondment of one of our hard working Zambian citizens, Dr. Mutukwa, to head the Forum. He has been there for some time now, because of his capacity to implement the decisions of SADC Summits through the Forum.

Madam Speaker, over time, this Parliament has been sending hon. Members to the Forum. Some of our hardworking sons and daughters of Zambia have served at the Forum. We believe that they made an input and brought value to the debates in the Forum.

However, I wish to say that most of our citizens have not benefited from the debates from the Forum. Even this House, itself, might have had a report from the four hon. Members who have been representing them. Unfortunately, I have to admit that I was not in this House when they made that report, to an extent that I am not aware of what issues were debated at the Forum. It is not that there were no reports, but I want to question how the debates in the Forum have been of use to us in this House for the benefit of our voters in our constituencies.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Magande: To me, this has been one of the weaknesses.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Magande: I am indebted to the seconder of the Motion, a very able hon. Member and our youngest hon. Member in this House …

Mr V. Mwale: Hear, hear!

Mr Magande: … who seems to have read the objectives of SADC. The objectives of SADC should be to bring us together. One of the most important issues we have to consider when we are synergising with our neighbours is that of the economy.

Under the SADC Ministers of Finance, we have a checklist, this is what we call in our jargon, “a lock frame” with over twelve parameters in micro-economic parameters of convergence which we are supposed to compare. Alas, when we compare those convergence parameters, we are very far from converging.

Mr Kambwili: Hear, hear!

Mr Magande: Madam Speaker, because of that, I would say that, it is difficult, especially now, to trade with our neighbours.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Magande: We know that some of our neighbours have dual exchange rates and the Zambia Revenue Authority officers are finding it difficult to put values to goods coming from one of our neighbours …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Magande: …because of the rampant rising inflation which has made the currency for that country incomparable to any in the region. As you will be reading the documents on SADC next week, you will discover that when it comes to inflation rates for this particular country, we do not use their parameters because after dividing twelve into those inflation rates, you will find that the average inflation rate in Zambia will be 500, and yet my inflation rate is 11 per cent.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Magande: Actually, in the economic reports that are produced, we leave out that country. So, there is no comparison we can make because of such divergences currently obtaining. Therefore, we cannot even agree on protocol of investment in the region.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Magande: The incentives that will be given to Zambia by investors cannot be compared to the other member States whose macro-economic conditions are not favourable to the investors. Therefore, we were to join and come up with similar incentives, which, perhaps, will make some of us lose end.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Quality!

Mr Magande: Madam Speaker, I heard Hon. M. Mwale talk about membership of some of the countries. That was a very good presentation. There is already fear that as we negotiate the Economic Partnership Agreement, some of the member States in SADC have dual membership of so many other regional integration units. Zambia itself belongs to SADC and COMESA. Therefore, until we have decided which organ to belong to, it will be difficult to have laws that are going to bind Zambia through SADC, but which will not be able to interpret the objectives of COMESA.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Magande: Madam, it is true that East Africa has a legislature and it is true that the Economic Community for West African Countries (ECOWAS) also have a legislature, but I would like to say that the East African Community was created in 1967. It was only in the interim that they broke up.

The remnants of the Secretariat in Arusha have existed all along, and therefore, when they came together again about ten years ago, it was easier for them to resurrect the structures which had operated before.

ECOWAS was established, if I am not mistaken, in 1973. As a result, they built some of the structures in terms of institutions to run their operations.

Madam Speaker, SADC was formed as a result of conflicts. It was not out of economic necessity.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Magande: SADC was created for us to hedge ourselves against the Apartheid regime in South Africa.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Magande: It was, therefore, more political. That is why at the beginning, it was SADC with two ‘Cs’. The last ‘C’ referred to a conference rather than a community.

Mr Kambwili: Quality!

Mr Magande: However, in 2002, out of the Windhoek Declaration, we decided to pronounce SADC as a community. Therefore, it is a relatively new integration. One would want to believe that given more space and time, we can actually create institutions that can bind the countries of SADC together.

Madam Speaker, on behalf of the Mwanawasa Government …

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Magande: … I would like to say that we support this Motion, but as long as we make an amendment to remove the proviso on full legislative powers.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Magande: That has to wait for some time. Otherwise, we are grateful to Hon. Matongo for reminding us about where we came from and what we should aim for in future. Perhaps, time will tell whether we have the capacity to do so.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Matongo: Madam Speaker, simple minds talk of …

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! Order!

Laughter

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

Mr Matongo: Madam Speaker, when business was suspended, I was saying that we always have to debate issues first. Small minds worry about issues, great minds think about greater opportunities and issues.

Having stated that, I would like to say that on the issue debated by my colleague, I would like to explain that the model of legislation itself is subject to detailed debate, Executive, parliamentary and legal intervention. What we are seeking here is the principle for greater integration. That is all we are seeking. We are not saying the legislative powers of the region shall supervise the sovereign State legislation of the Republic of Zambia. It will be agreed issues by our respective governments that will be brought here.

Madam Speaker, I am seeking an agreement in principle, leaving details for further moderation and debate. I also wish to thank all those who have taken the Floor to debate. I thank the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning for his guidance and all hon. Members of Parliament who would like to think of deeper, greater integration of this region and may wish to believe that we are moving forward.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. UPND Member: Hear, hear!

Question put and agreed to.

COMMITTEE ON DELEGATED LEGISLATION REPORT

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC. (Chasefu): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that this House do adopt the Report of the Committee on Delegated Legislation, for the First Session of the Tenth National Assembly, laid on the Table of the House on 30th July, 2007.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Is the Motion Seconded?

Ms Masiye (Mufulira): I second the Motion, Madam Speaker.

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: Madam Speaker, during the period under review, your Committee, in accordance with their terms of reference, scrutinised all the statutory instruments before them and ensured that they were in conformity with the principal legislation and did not amount to substantive legislation, which is a preserve of this House. Your Committee, thus, strived to ensure that Parliament’s delegation of powers to other authorities or persons to make orders, regulations, rules, sub-rules and by-laws, were being properly exercised.

Allow me now to comment on some of the statutory instruments considered by your Committee. Madam Speaker, your Committee dealt with a number of statutory instruments issued by the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources to degazette portions of several local and national forests. These areas are mainly located on the Copperbelt Province. I wish to report that the process of degazetting the forests was being efficiently carried out by the Forestry Department at the time of your Committee’s familiarisation visits to the forests. The land excised from the forests will be allocated to persons in the local communities and to persons who were squatters in the forests, mainly for farming purposes.

The decision to degazette portions of the forests for agricultural purposes is welcome and I wish to commend the Government for this initiative. May I, however, urge the Government to build the capacities of the people who will be allocated land in the degazetted areas in order to undertake activities that are sustainable. The Government, therefore, needs to introduce activities in these areas that will promote development, especially, in the agricultural sector.

Madam Speaker, while we appreciate the good gesture to allocate the forest areas to our citizens, we are also concerned that the country has lost valuable forest resources in the form of trees. May I, therefore, urge the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources, through the Forestry Department, to sensitise the settlers on the importance of forests and encourage them to plant trees on their plots. The Forestry Department also needs to establish more forest areas and step up its efforts in protecting the existing forests, especially, from illegal charcoal burners.

Madam Speaker, the other issue, which your Committee dealt with, concerns the minimum wages and conditions of employment for employees in the country. This issue was covered under two statutory instruments, namely, Statutory Instrument No. 56 of 2006, the Minimum Wages and Conditions of Employment (Shop Workers) Order, 2006 and the Minimum Wages and Conditions of Employment (General) Order, 2006.

Madam Speaker, your Committee also undertook tours of shops in Solwezi and Livingstone to check on the implementation of the wages and conditions of employment prescribed in the two Statutory Instruments, particularly, Statutory Instrument No. 56 of 2006.

Your Committee are pleased that, to a large extent, there is compliance among shop owners with the provisions of the statutory instrument, especially, with regard to the minimum wage figure of K268,000. There was, however, very little knowledge among employees about their entitlements as stated in the statutory instruments. For example, at one shop in Livingstone, the cashiers were not aware that they were being underpaid until this fact was brought to their attention by the labour officers. The employer claimed to have been misled on the wage applicable to cashiers by their labour consultant.

It is our view that herein lies the problem as regards the minimum wages and conditions of employment. There is a widespread misconception that the figure of K268,000 applies to all categories of employees. This has led to employers underpaying their employees. The Ministry of Labour and Social Security and other partners, therefore, need to carryout sensitisation programmes countrywide on the provisions of the two statutory instruments and their principal law.

Madam Speaker, related to the foregoing is the need for our people not to be merely confined to the minimum wage provisions. It is important that the principle of equal work for equal pay is promoted in the country in order for our people to be remunerated according to their efforts, and not exploited. The employees should be paid a living wage and not a minimum wage which, for all intents and purposes, is very low, when you consider the cost of the Zambian food basket, according to the analysis of the Jesuit Centre for Theological Reflection.

Madam Speaker, the other issue which the Government should seriously undertake to curtail is the practice of casualisation of labour. Surely, how can a person be employed as a casual worker for a period as long as two years? Your Committee strongly feel that casualisation is being used by most employers to abuse the locals so that they do not share in the employers’ profits. Casualisation also entails that the employer can hire and fire employees at will. Therefore, Madam Speaker, the locals are not able to complain when the working conditions are poor for fear of being dismissed. This issue, therefore, needs urgent attention.

Madam Speaker, may I reiterate another issue which has been of concern to your previous Committees. This is the practice by some Ministries and other institutions of Government of either submitting memoranda and subsidiary legislation late or not submitting them at all for your Committee’s consideration. This is very unfortunate and should be stopped immediately as the power to issue subsidiary legislation is delegated by this House to such other persons or authorities. This is the reason why such subsidiary legislation should be scrutinised by your Committee to ensure, among other things, that the subsidiary legislation deals with only administrative details and do not amount to substantive legislation, which is a matter for Parliamentary enactment.

Finally, Madam Speaker, I wish to express your Committee’s gratitude for their appointment to oversee the portfolio of delegated legislation and for your wise counsel during the period under review. Your Committee are also grateful to all the permanent secretaries and other witnesses who appeared before them and submitted explanatory memoranda explaining the Statutory Instruments which were issued.

Your Committee further wish to thank the office of the Clerk for the services rendered to them during the year.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Ms Masiye: I wish to speak now, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, I beg to second the Motion which has been ably moved by the Chairperson of the Committee, who is also the hon. Member for Chasefu (Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.). I adopt his wise words as my very own and only wish to touch on a few other points.

Madam Speaker, my concern on the subject of delegated legislation relates to the time lag usually experienced by your Committee before statutory instruments are brought to them for consideration. It usually takes a while before statutory instruments and explanatory memoranda are submitted to your Committee. The danger in this practice is that if legislation which does not conform to the requirements of delegated legislation is issued, the people are the ones who suffer as a result of this administrative lapse. This is one of the practices which your Committee are mandated to guard against in their terms of reference.

May I, therefore, urge the Government to quickly streamline the issuance of statutory instruments and explanatory memoranda. This way, the purpose of your Committee will be better achieved.

The second item I wish to touch is on the degazetting of some forests by the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources, especially on the Copperbelt. I welcome this initiative and commend the Government for realising that there has been a shortage of land for the people to conduct activities such as farming. I, however, wish to encourage that equity should be observed in the process of allocating the land so that the process benefits all. I also wish to reiterate that communities continue being involved in the process of allocating land in order to create a sense of ownership and transparency.

Madam, the other item I wish to comment on concerns Statutory Instruments No. 56 and 57 of 2007. These Instruments prescribe the minimum wage and the conditions of service for non-unionised workers in Zambia.

Madam, I wish to encourage stakeholders, especially employers, to always consider the equal work for equal pay principle when remunerating our citizens in their employ. The prescribed minimum wage figure of K265,000 should not be the ultimate as it is very low, more so in cases where employers can afford better. In addition, they should note that this figure, being only a minimum, can and should, therefore, be reviewed upwards as often as necessary.

Madam Speaker, with these few points, I wish to second the Motion and urge the House to unanimously adopt the report.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze): Madam Speaker, I thank you for according me the opportunity to debate the Motion on the Report of the Committee on Delegated Legislation.

Madam, whereas I support the report, I wish to express my extreme disappointment in that this House’s decisions on matters of national importance have been ignored by the Executive.

Madam Speaker, the cabinet and the deputy ministers are accountable to this House by Article 51 of the Laws of Zambia. Article 51 of the Constitution states, and I quote:

‘The Cabinet and Deputy Ministers shall be accountable collectively to National Assembly’

Alas, Madam, certain decisions of the House have been ignored with impunity by the Executive. I have in mind an issue that was deliberated upon by this House. It was resolved and agreed, but the Executive have ignored, with impunity, the advice of this House. The Executive have continued to utilise a law that was declared null and void, that is ultravires the main Act. The Attorney-General advised the hon. Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources, but the advice has been ignored because it suits them. Since they have interest, they have continued overriding the Act.

Madam Speaker, I will give you examples where the Executive have continued using a law that was declared null and void by this House. They nullified the decision of the Environmental Council of Zambia over the National Milling along Cairo Road.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: They nullified the decision of the Environmental Council of Zambia over the Steel Factory in Kafue.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: They have done this on several occasions when, in actual fact, that law is null and void, and yet this Government claims to be a Government of laws.

Hon. PF Members: And ZOT!

Mr Mwiimbu: Yes, ZOT in Ndola.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Despite the dangers that it poses to the community of Ndola and the nation as a whole, they have ignored legal advice with impunity.

The Attorney-General is the Chief Legal Adviser to the Government, but they have ignored him because they know that they will use this same clause which is null and void for their own benefit. Why should we allow a situation where laws are ignored with impunity by the Government? In responsible democracies, those who fail to abide by the laws of the country are usually forced to resign, even on moral grounds.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Why should they continue doing and justifying things that are illegal? This is the third time that the Committee on Delegated Legislation has been lamenting. If the word of rubberstamping was not unparliamentary, I would have used it.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam, we resolved this issue and it is on record.

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Members: Hammer!

Mr Mwiimbu: Why should we allow this?

I impress on the hon. Minister of Justice to advise his colleagues to stop using a law that was declared null and void, pursuant to the advice by the Attorney-General. I would like to ask members of the public who are interested in these issues to take the matters to court. Evidence to support them is on record.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Madam Speaker, after that fiery debate by my colleague, the hon. Member for Monze, Mr Mwiimbu, I would like to draw the attention of the House to one item in the Report of your Committee. In so doing, let me commend your Committee for a very well done job. This is a very good report.

Madam Speaker, on Page 2, Item 5, of the Report, is a list of all the statutory instruments issued by the Ministry of Local Government and Housing, the first of which has to do with the increase and regulation of the rates of allowances payable to councillors.

Madam, I would like to say that as a result of that statutory instrument, allowances for councilors in urban areas were increased to a paltry K60,000 per councillor per council meeting as transport, and only K50,000 as sitting allowance. For their counterparts in rural areas, those allowances were up to K50,000 for sitting allowance and K30,000 as transport.

Madam Speaker, I would like to remind this House that in 2004, when the Government moved a motion or a bill as a matter of fact, to amend the Local Government Elections Act, issues concerning the responsibilities of councilors were raised on the Floor of this House. A number of hon. Members of Parliament from either side of the House acknowledged the fact that councillors, these days, were taking on a lot more responsibilities than was the case hitherto. One of the statements issued then by the Ministry of Local Government and Housing was that the Government was aware of the difficult conditions under which councillors operated.

The Government has made an undertaking to increase the term of office for councillors from three to five years. Therefore, issues of their remuneration would be looked into. One would have expected that in 2006, two years after the law was amended, we would have seen a reasonable increase in their allowances.

I would like to remind hon. Members that most of us spend a lot of time here in Parliament and we depend on our councillors to deliver whatever little development to the people. When we are calling for decentralisation, we are simply saying councillors must take on even added responsibilities. One would wonder how people could manage to run their offices as councillors when they are paid K50,000 per month as sitting allowance.

I would like to remind the House that councillors do not only attend council meetings, but there are many other meetings they attend for which they are not paid and those meetings are not held at their homes or backyards. The meetings are held within the community and there is no assistance whatsoever that those councillors get to enable them attend to public issues.

As the case is in Lusaka, every councillor has not less than six zone development committees that they are responsible for and by law, they are supposed to meet, at least, once a month. A councillor is supposed to attend meetings of all developmental committees. That already adds to six meetings a month.

Over and above that, the zone development committees come together and form the residence development committees that also ought to meet once a month. If you add the figures, they easily come to eight meetings a month, meaning two meetings a week. We know that councillors are supposed to be volunteers, but surely, will they volunteer eight meetings every single month and only be paid for one meeting?

We have been lamenting the issues of garbage collection and I know that people have been writing letters to the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing to alert her of garbage being dumped in places. That is the duty of councillors and our councillors are working extremely hard to ensure that those who are dumping garbage are brought to book. To do that, they require time.

If on one hand we say we can only afford to pay them K50,000 per meeting, then it means that they have to spend half the time in jobs where they are earning a living. How then will they also be expected to supervise the work in the wards? They will not have the time for that. I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing to sit with the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning so that as they debate the budget for 2008, they take into account the recommendations from the Local Government Association of Zambia to consider putting councillors on a monthly allowances rather that only sitting allowances.

What is even more important, especially for my colleagues representing rural constituencies, is that our councillors require some form of transport. I do not think it is too difficult and cheeky to ask that the Government gives them either bicycles or motor bikes.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: If that is found to be too expensive, why do we not as parliamentarians extend the privilege we have to them as well? Give them a monthly allowance which is reasonable and loans for them to acquire their own transport because that way, we shall be delivering development faster and better.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: We must not forget the fact that parliamentarians are considered social welfare officers in our constituencies, but in our absence, it is those councillors who carry the burden on our behalf. They are the ones who become social welfare officers. Every single day, there is somebody going to a councillor to ask for school fees or a coffin and those poor councillors do not have anything to give. They have nowhere to go and ask for that money. I think it is time for us to put our money where our mouths are. We cannot expect to deliver development through decentralisation if we do not empower the people who we think should take the responsibility of delivering development to the people.

Madam Speaker, the next issue I would like to refer to has been referred to by the seconder of the Motion and that is to do with degazetting. I know that Forest 26 in Chilenje in Lusaka is bound to be degazetted soon to pave way for our Malaysian friends to create an M-face. I would like to appeal to my colleagues on this committee to keep their ears and eyes wide open in the same way that I will because if that forest is degazetted wantonly, then we are going to create a crisis for all the people who live downstream Chalimbana. We will create a very big crisis for all the people who survive on the Chongwe River, because Forest 26 is a very important catchment area for the rivers of Chalimbana and Chongwe.

I know that the Government has already agreed with the Malaysians to give them 2,000 hectares of land outside Chilenje. I know that the Government has agreed to degazette a forest. When that forest was established, it was because of the ecological issues there. That forest is extremely crucial for the people along the Chalimbana River and if we are going to just degazette it without protecting the catchment area, then we must also make sure that our Malaysian partners provide boreholes to all the people downstream Chalimbana and Chongwe, failure to which that project should be condemned by the Environmental Council of Zambia. I say this because I can see the speed at which our colleagues are moving over that matter, and yet nobody has been asked to conduct an environmental impact assessment on the plan to degazette Forest 26.

In so saying, Madam Speaker, I would like to remind the Government that when the 1,500 poor people of Mahopo applied to this Government for a piece of that land to be degazetted for them to be resettled after their village of fifty-four years was grabbed from them, the Government said they could not do it because they had to protect that piece of land. Against the will of 1,500 Zambians, they said they wanted to preserve it. Now, the Malaysians have come and they say, yes, we can degazette it. These are double standards of the worst kind.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: I would like to urge the hon. Minister responsible for this to ensure that at the time they are degazetting that forest, the interest of the 1,500 indigenous …

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: … Zambians are taken care of, because not taking care of their interests, we will be exposing our colleagues to only be interested in GDP in their pockets and not the life of the 1,500 people. I know that they are going to create jobs through the M-face, but in the process of creating jobs, they also ought to make sure that they are uplifting the standard of living of the people.

Interruptions

Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, at page 6 of your Committee’s Report, Item No. 6, there is a very important statutory instrument, the Road Traffic (Public Service Vehicles) (Speed Limiter) Regulations 2006. I want to say well done hon. Minister of Communications and Transport.

Hon. PF Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: You have the instrument in place, but hon. Deputy Minister of Communications and Transport, laws on paper become nothing if they are not enforced.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: You have the law, yes, you have the statutory instrument, but what have you done to ensure that these pubic service vehicles live up to your statutory instrument? Why is it that many Zambian lives are being lost through reckless driving of public service vehicles? My dear friends, it is one thing to come up with the law, but it is another to enforce it.

Where is the problem? I would like to appeal to the Government to ensure that this important Statutory Instrument is enforced. In Lusaka, I do not even see the reason the speed limit should be eighty kilometres per hour on our minibuses. I am sure that they are capable of reducing that limit to probably sixty kilometres per hour and people would still drive comfortably and reduce the rate of accidents.

The Government comes up with statutory instrument and have to advertise for people to come and have speed installed when the law is there. When these vehicles are being registered as Public Service Vehicles (PSV), it is done by the Government. At the time of registering and inspecting the vehicles for registration, it is easy for the traffic officers to also check that the limiter is installed and working. I do not see why you go up and down like a yoyo on a matter that is so straightforward. This is a very easy matter which can be done very quickly.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! Withdraw the word ‘yoyo’.

Laughter

Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, thank you for your guidance, I withdraw ‘yoyo’, but I wonder why they want to go round like that small toy which you throw and it comes back. It would always boomerang. They should not behave like that small toy.

Laughter

Mr Lubinda: This is a straightforward SI which can be enforced easily. Another matter that I think requires commenting upon is on page 7, on Statutory Instrument No. 23 of 2006- The Income Tax (Withholding Tax) (Exemption) (Amendment) Regulations, 2006. This is a very important SI and it is in keeping with the spirit of Parliament, with regard to small-scale traders and particularly suppliers of agricultural products. However, I wonder whether at the time of coming up with this SI the ministry responsible also consulted the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) when they decided, this year, to come up with another tax that has a counter effect on the Advance Tax. On one hand, you withdraw the Withholding Tax, saying people can trade without it because they are small suppliers and on the other, you come up with another tax called the Advance Tax against the same small suppliers that this SI is helping to protect. What are we doing? Are we not contradicting ourselves?

I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, before we wear similar suits to show our support for him, if he could explain to us the difference between this Withholding Tax that was withdrawn through SI No. 23 of 2006 and the Advance Tax that he imposed on the small suppliers in the budget for 2007.

Thank you, Madam.

Dr Machungwa: Madam Speaker, I am really enjoying the debate from colleagues on this side. Indeed, in supporting this report, which has been ably presented and well done, I just want to emphasise one point which was earlier raised by my colleague, Hon. Mwiimbu, that the Government should, indeed, operate on the basis of law. If a law is considered by this House and struck down as illegal and unconstitutional, it cannot be used continuously with impunity. I think this is going to get the Government into a lot of problems. If people decide to reject or ignore the law, they should be prosecuted, but what happens if the Government itself decides to violate the law with impunity? What are the reasons for this?

Madam Speaker, I want to come to page 16 of the report on the Ministry of Labour and Social Security, Shoprite shops in Solwezi and Livingstone, on paragraph 5, and I quote:

“The problem which your Committee found at the Shoprite stores were mainly to do with casualisation as some casual employees have been in employment for periods as long as two years. Your Committee observed that the practice of hiring employees on a casual basis for long periods was an abuse of the employees’ rights and contrary to law. It was also brought to your Committee’s attention that union leaders and those who dared to question the working conditions and low pay were usually victimised. Solwezi Shoprite had twenty-eight permanent and thirty-six casual employees while Livingstone had thirty-five permanent and thirty-six casual employees. In addition, most of the workers did not seem to know about the provisions of the law as regards their prescribed entitlements in the Statutory Instrument.”

This is sad because this House has, for the last several years, been talking against casualisation. The hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security himself has come up and talked against it. The report is telling us that some people have been employed as casual workers for as long as two years. We find that the employer has twenty-eight permanent and thirty-six casual employees who, in fact, should be permanent employees because some of them have been working for as long as two years. This is obviously cheap for the employer because if workers are casual, they are not entitled to certain benefits. If you look on the same page, in the paragraph above, we are told that the turnover, in terms of earnings, at Solwezi Shoprite was reported to be around K2.2 billion a month and the percentage of the wage bill to turnover was 2.5 per cent. This is a minuscule figure by any business operation such that even if they employed the thirty-six as full-time, it would not affect their operations very much. What is the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security doing to stop this kind of situation from continuing?

I have dealt with this particular employer in the past and unless they are closely supervised and talked to, they will not adhere to the labour laws. My advice to the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security is that, if necessary, he should travel there himself and tell the employer that this practice must stop because they are these types of intransigent employers who continue to ignore the provisions of the law unless they are told to do so and very forcefully. It is a shame that people can be working for two years and be denied employment because we definitely know that there is employment. What is the use of employing them for two years as casual workers? Casual workers are usually seasonal or temporary workers, but here they have found a formula which they are using to keep these workers cheaply.

Madam Speaker, we cannot allow this and I want to give notice to the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security that next Sitting, I am going to take him to task on what he has done about this because I am sure it will take a long time for Action-Taken Reports to come, but I will not wait for that.

In conclusion, I just want to go back to that important point where we are urging the Government to obey its own laws that are passed by this House.

If the Government can violate its laws with impunity, then it is not fit to be in power, because constitutionally, the Government is there to uphold the rule of law, obey and defend the laws. However, it could be one hon. Minister who is continuously ignoring the law, and if that is the case, then something must be done to that hon. Minister.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Madam Speaker, I will be very brief for the first time.

I will just confine my debate to Statutory Instrument No. 56 of the laws of Zambia, and, indeed, tender my utmost disappointment with the office of the Deputy Minister, Southern Province.

Madam Speaker, when the Committee on Delegated Legislation visited the Southern Province, we observed a lot of anomalies at Chrismar Hotel and many other hotels in Livingstone.

I am sad to report to this House that even today, I have a text message from Livingstone that from the moment the Committee left, everything has been quiet. Why should this Government be waiting for emergencies or to be reminded? We discovered that workers were ill treated at Chrismar Hotel. The following day, the Office of the President and others also went to Chrismar Hotel, but immediately we left the province, everything came to a halt. This is irresponsible.

Madam Speaker, people must account for their offices. Why should they wait for the Committee on Delegated Legislation to go back to Livingstone for the hon. Minister and his team in Southern Province to act? The law is there, but it had to wait for us to go there and tell them that at Chrismar Hotel there were problems, and yet they live and work there. Do you want the committee to make another trip for you people to work?

If you are not prepared to work, resign and let others who want to work take up the positions.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Can you debate without almost personally attacking any individual ....

Mr Kambwili: I am not attacking …

Laughter

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! Debate the Motion on the Floor.

Mr Kambwili: Madam Speaker, people in public offices who are not ready to work must resign rather than start kneeling before the President.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mrs Masebo): Madam Speaker, I rise to support the report and commend the Committee for a job well done. Looking at the report, the Committee did take note of most, if not all, the Statutory Instruments that were issued by the various ministries. This means that they were happy that the Statutory Instruments were within the law and did not infringe on other existing written laws.

Madam Speaker, I will confine myself to the Ministry of Local Government and Housing. As Members of Parliament, we come to this House to debate issues that affect our constituencies and it is important that hon. Members of Parliament are seen to be debating, by their electorates. Whilst doing so, I think we must be fair to the Government when debating these issues. For instance, the issue concerning councillors was discussed and agreed that there was a need to increase their allowances. The Government moved in by issuing the Statutory Instrument that made the increase to their salaries. At that time, those increases were sufficient and hon. Members of the House then, were appreciative of that Statutory Instrument.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: The Government brought a motion to amend the Local Government Act so as to change the tenure of office for councillors from three to five years because there was a need for capacity building and also because it was less costly.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, one of the issues raised was that this would also help us increase their salaries and improve their performance as they would be there for a longer time.

Madam Speaker, as you may be aware, last year was a year of elections. Therefore, for these serving councillors, it will be their first time to serve for five years. I have, on the Floor of this House, indicated, on behalf of the Government, that the Government has agreed to improve the allowances of councillors.

Madam Speaker, I am saying this because we have to be very careful with some of the issues we raise on the Floor of this House. If we are going to talk about monthly salaries, it means that councillors are going to become full-time employees, but it will be an issue that has to be agreed to, rather than just stating that I must start paying councillors their monthly salaries.

The Local Government Association of Zambia has not made a proposal to the Government to the effect that it must start paying monthly salaries to councillors. What has been agreed to is that the Government must improve the allowances.

The second issue is that of gratuity. Again, we said that gratuity, as we understand it today, relates to people who are in full-time employment. Anyway, these are issues for the Constitution and I think its process is on going. It is up to the people of Zambia to decide what type of local government system they want or whether they want councillors who are going to be full time like Members of Parliament.

Therefore, I want to state that it is not true to say that we, as a Government, do not appreciate the work of councillors. That has been appreciated and agreed to already. What is required is for us to take into account the capacity by the various councils and the Central Government to support the councils by paying them their allowances. So, there is nothing new, we are already in the process. We should not think that because somebody has said this and that, this is why we are going to do that. The decision has already been made.

Interruptions

Mrs Masebo: The second issue relates to the impression given that the Government is running in total contravention of the laws that we make.

Hon. PF Member: You are!

Mrs Masebo: I think that is not a fair statement. Therefore, when we say that we are a Government of laws, we mean just that.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: All you have to do is look at the men and women who are in the Executive, who understand the law much more than others.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mrs Masebo: We have lawyers of ama lawyers in this Government.

Laughter

Mrs Masebo: Therefore, we cannot be the ones to break the laws, no. There is a statement raised here that we are breaking the law with impunity, and an example of the National Milling issue has been raised.

Madam Speaker, I thought I should make this point clear.

The functions of the Environmental Council of Zambia (ECZ), in as far as development planning is concerned, do not override the functions of the local authorities as the planning authority in their respective jurisdiction.

Hon. PF Members: Question!

Mrs Masebo: That is the law.

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Mrs Masebo: Secondly, it is not right to say that if ECZ tells the council that an application is not approved on account of certain environmental issues, then the council must not proceed to offer approval without taking into account the environmental concerns.

Hon. Opposition Members: What are you talking about?

Mrs Masebo: Let me explain. What it simply means is that …

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Madam!

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister of Local Government and …

Hon. UPND Member: Who is not even a lawyer.

Mr Mwiimbu: … Housing in order to bring in issues of councils under her jurisdiction over a matter, which was not mentioned? The council that was mentioned was the Environmental Council of Zambia and not a local authority.

Interruptions

Mrs Masebo shook her head.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member is concerned that in the debate, Members are referring to the Environmental Council of Zambia and not the Local Government, municipal or city councils. In my ruling, I think that the hon. Minister is bringing in the municipal and city councils in general, regarding the role that they play in allocation of plots and other areas in infrastructure development.

Can we listen carefully to get the point that she is raising.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, maybe, I should just make my language simple for my colleagues to understand.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, the functions of planning, permission and use of land is an exclusive role of the municipal authority, not by statutory instrument, but in accordance with the Town and Country Planning Act. That is number one.

Dr Machungwa:  In accordance with other laws.

Mrs Masebo: Of course, in accordance with other laws, including the ECZ. My point is that the decision of the ECZ does not override the decision of the local authority as a planning authority.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, I will be specific in as far as the application by the National Milling Company is concerned. I would like to give that as an example so that we are not made to look as if we are a Government that is condoning the breaking of laws or indiscipline whilst on the other hand, saying we are a Government of laws.

Mr Lubinda: On a point of order.

Madam Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, I rise on a very serious point of order. Is the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing in order to misinterpret the Environmental Council of Zambia Law with regard to its authority over approvals of development plans and programmes to the extent of saying that the Environmental Council of Zambia, as a matter of fact, is totally irrelevant because even after giving an opinion, councils can proceed, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: … and yet the law in the Environmental Council of Zambia Act is that before any project which has any environmental concerns is approved, it ought to receive the approval of the Environmental Council of Zambia? Is she in order to mislead the House?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Deputy Speaker: The concern of the hon. Member for Kabwata is that from the explanation of the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing the law that governs the Environmental Council of Zambia does not have authority on its own to advise or to stop the putting up of any infrastructure of a developmental nature that has a negative impact on the environment.

I think that the Hon. Minister will make it clear to the House because the concern is that Local Government has got power over land and allocations. The hon. Member is saying that the Environmental Council of Zambia has the power to give an impact assessment and can decide not to allow a project or construction of any such infrastructure. I think we need to be very clear here.

 Can the hon. Minister make it very clear? Are you saying the ECZ can be overruled by the council?

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Thank you, Madam Speaker. If only the hon. Members could give me a chance to finish my sentence, I think they would not misunderstand me. But since they are raising so many points of order …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Can we listen to the hon. Minister and let her make her statement?

Mrs Masebo: Thank you, Madam Speaker, once again. I was saying that, please, give me a chance to explain so that you understand and appreciate my point.

The point I am making here is that there is the ECZ with its power, according to legislation on one side, and then there is also the Local Government on the other. Councils, according to the Act, are the planners of the city and are the ones that give permission for the use of land and not just alienation and allocation, but also how you use that land.

 In making that decision, they will take into account technical advice from other sectors including the ECZ, in this case, in terms of environmental concerns. Therefore, when the ECZ gives a report to the council as by law, it does not mean that the councils are obliged by law to obey the instructions of ECZ. I am talking about the law here.

Hon. Opposition Members interrupted.

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, let me just explain that the law at the moment does not say that the decision of ECZ shall override the decision of the council. But the council must take into account the technical advice given by the ECZ. And that, in itself, is one of the challenges that we are facing, as a Government, and are looking at harmonising the two pieces of legislations so that if the decision of the Government is that the decision of ECZ must override the council, then so shall it be.  But for now, the law is that the councils, in approving the plans, must take into account the concerns of the ECZ. That is why when the ECZ, in some cases, have made a decision, the councils have gone forward to approve and in approving, have raised the concerns of the ECZ.

In the case of the National Milling Company, the concerns that were raised in approving that development by Lusaka City Council which, unfortunately, this speaker before me is a member of and therefore part of the decision and not this Minister who is defending them, …

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, the Lusaka City Council approved the development of the National Milling Company and in approving that application, they did, in their approval, specify the concerns of the ECZ and advised the developer to take that into account, but still approved the application. And that is why I say the councils are the final authority in terms of development plans and construction of buildings, but they take into account the technical advice of the ECZ.

The ECZ are now saying there is a need for us to look at that so that the decisions that ECZ makes are binding on the local authorities. Therefore, we are not breaking any law.

Hon. Opposition Member: You are!

Mrs Masebo: In addition to that, the hon. Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources has powers, under the Act, to take a final decision on these matters.

Hon. Opposition Member: No, he does not.

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, it is not correct to say that we are breaking the law with impunity. Maybe, in terms of our final decisions, as a Government, through the local authorities, we may make a decision that may be against technical advice, but not that we are breaking the law. Whatever we do is within the law except that maybe, the decisions we are making may not be in the best interests of our people. Besides that, since we are just human, we may make wrong decisions, but not that we are breaking the law.

Madam Speaker, it is therefore important that when we speak, we must not give the public the impression that this is a Government of laws just on paper but in action, it breaks the law.

There is no law that we are breaking. If you ask National Milling Company, they will tell you that they have been told this construction must take into account the use of Cairo Road because we do not want trucks on this road. We have asked them to find an alternative route.

The other condition to National Milling Company is that, in future, they have to consider relocating from the Town Centre because when it was constructed, Lusaka was not what it is today.

Madam, we have told National Milling Company that there is nothing illegal we have done. Maybe the decision may just be bad. However, we have not done anything illegal. I thought I should clarify that point.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda, SC.): Madam Speaker, …

Hon. Members: Hammer!

Mr Kunda, SC.: No, I am not going to hammer this time…

Laughter

Mr Kunda, SC.: … but I just wish to thank the Chairman of the Committee, the Learned State Counsel, Mr Chifumu Kingdom Banda, hon. Member of Parliament for Chasefu, for a very good report and of course, the Committee which did a good job. They have brought to our attention a number of issues and not very serious issues. As regards he issue of drafting these statutory instruments, no issue has been raised, apart from one issue regarding the Statutory Instrument, which was passed in 1997, before we came into Government under the Ministry of Energy and Water Development and the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources.

If you look at all the Statutory Instruments, I take it that they were all drafted within the law. When we receive instructions from various ministries, our role is to scruitinise a particular Statutory Instrument, look at a Parent Act, Substantive Legislation and ensure that that Statutory Instrument does not amount to substantive legislation. I can confidently say from the point of view of my ministry that this rule has been followed to the latter.

Madam Speaker, there are various issues to do with the policy which have been raised. Some have to do with councils, the Ministries of Labour and Social Services and the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources. No doubt the various ministries mentioned in this debate have taken note of the issues raised. As for us, we depend on instructions. The ministries formulate policies and we receive Statutory Instruments, which we scrutinise and make sure that are within the law, the parent Act and Constitutional provisions so that we do not make Statutory Instruments, which are now void. In this regard, I thought I should mention this and thank even the seconder for the issues which he has highlighted.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: Madam Speaker, I wish to thank each and every hon. Member of Parliament who has spoken on this Motion. I am gratified that the Government has taken note of all points that have been raised by this report. I am also grateful to the other hon. Members of Parliament who have mentioned some points, which need the Government’s attention. All in all, I wish to thank the hon. Members of Parliament for the overwhelming support, which they have given to this Motion.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Question put and agreed to.

ADJOURNMENT

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Magande): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

_____

The House adjourned at 1740 hours until 1430 hours on Thursday, 2nd August, 2007.