DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE FIRST SESSION OF THE TENTH ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 8th August, 2007

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

________

QUESTIONS

MAAMBA COLLIERIES LIMITED

748. Mr D. Mwila (Chipili) asked the Minister of Mines and Minerals Development:

(a) whether the operations of Maamba Collieries Limited had been paralysed and the company was on the brink of total collapse due to the seizure of equipment by Belle-Isle, a United Kingdom – based company as reported in the Times of Zambia of Monday, 6th August, 2007;

(b) how much money Maamba Collieries Limited owed Belle-Isle;

(c) how much interest the debt had attracted then;

(d) whether the mine was the largest employer in the Southern Province and, if so, how many workers were affected by the action at (a) above; and

(e) what short-term and long-term measures the Government had taken to prevent the company from total collapse.

The Deputy Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr M. B. Mwale): Mr Speaker, in response, I would like to inform the House that it has been confirmed that the operations at Maamba Collieries Limited have been paralysed because of the seizure of equipment by Belle Isle-United Kingdom Limited which has left the mine with no operating equipment. The equipment was seized on 27th July, 2007, following a court decision in favour of the plaintiff, namely Belle Isle-UK Limited.

Mr Speaker, in answer to part (b), the amount of money owed to Belle-Isle, UK Limited is US$389,060,85, which translates to approximately K1,572,760.000

Mr Speaker, the interest is at 6 per cent per annum until the debt is repaid. Approximately, K16,760,000 has accumulated as of now.

Mr Speaker, Maamba Collieries Limited is the largest employer in the mining industry in Southern Province, and 700 employees have been affected by the action taken by Belle-Isle, UK Limited to seize the equipment.

Mr Speaker, in the ministerial statement presented to this House by the hon. Minister and Minerals Development (Dr Mwansa) on Maamba Collieries Limited in March, 2007, the House was assured that the Government was determined to see Maamba Collieries Limited recapitalised and operate as a profitable enterprise.

It was also indicated in the ministerial statement that the Government had decided to sell its 100 per cent shares in Maamba Collieries Limited to Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines – Investment Holdings (ZCCM-IH) at a cost of US$4.3 million. The transfer of the Government shares to ZCCM – IH was to be completed as soon as a scheme of paying off creditors the outstanding amount of US$42 million had been put in place.

I should inform the House that out of this amount, US$22.6 million is owed to Standard Chartered Bank Plc. The Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) and National Pension Scheme Authority (NAPSA) are owed US$10.1 million. Unpaid benefits to ex-employees stand at US$1.75 million. The rest is owed to the other creditors, which include ZESCO, Workmen’s Compensation and Zambia Railways. I am pleased to report that a draft scheme of arrangement on the debt of Maamba Collieries Limited has been drawn up and agreed upon by most of the creditors excluding Belle Isle-UK Limited.

Negotiations have been held with various creditors. The status of the negotiations is that Standard Chartered Bank Plc, Zesco and other trade creditors have agreed to give Maamba Collieries Limited a discount of 75 per cent on the debt. The new shareholder, ZCCM – IH will empower Maamba Collieries Limited to clear the entire outstanding debt.

Now that the Attorney-General has approved the Share Transfer Agreement, the Ministry of Finance and National Planning is about to conclude the transfer of the GRZ shares to ZCCM – IH.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that today, a vehicle from the properties that have been seized by Belle-Isle, UK Limited has been sold? The office furniture and equipment for all the workshops at Maamba Collieries, including a big bus which transports workers from the compound to the plant, will also be sold on 15th of this month. If the hon. Minister is aware, what is he doing about it?

The Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Dr Mwansa): Mr Speaker, before I respond to the supplementary question, I want to put on record our appreciation of the interest that Hon. D. Mwila continues to show in Maamba Collieries Limited.

Mr Speaker, you may recall that on 25th January, 2007, we answered question number 99, posed by Hon. D. Mwila on the same Maamba Collieries Limited. On 28th March, 2007, we presented a ministerial statement to the House, again, following a point of order raised by Hon. D. Mwila.

Mr Speaker, we are aware that property has been seized or sold. However, the lawyers for both Maamba Collieries Limited and Belle-Isle, UK Limited are discussing, with a view to returning part of the equipment to Maamba Collieries Limited.

Secondly we are rehabilitating the equipment that Maamba Collieries Limited still owns which has not been operational for a long time. Spare parts have been procured and the engineers are working round the clock to ensure that some of the equipment is repaired in order to produce coal and move it to the processing plant.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mwenya (Nkana): Mr Speaker, from the impression that this nation has created regarding its credit worthiness to the international community, especially that we just attained the Heavily Indebted Poor Countries (HIPC) Completion Point, we should have realised enough revenue from there to be able to service such credits.

Mr Speaker: That question has no relevance to Maamba Collieries Limited.

Laughter

Mr Chimbaka (Bahati): Mr Speaker what alternative sources of coal does the Government of Zambia have in place which are cheaper than coal at Maamba Collieries Limited to steer the development of steel industries in Zambia?

Mr Speaker, I am saying so because I have a passion for Maamba Collieries Limited at heart. I have in mind Mansa Batteries Limited which was a major employer just like Maamba Collieries Limited. We are raising these concerns …

Mr Speaker: The hon. Member is now debating.

Dr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, Maamba Collieries continues to be the biggest source of coal for the country. As I said, everything is being done to ensure that production is resumed. I can assure the House that in the next one month or earlier, two agreements will be signed, one of which will be to ensure that the creditors agree to a 75 per cent discount on all the debt that Maamba Collieries Limited owes them. The second one has to do with the transfer of shares from the Government to the ZCCM – IH.

Once that is done, Maamba Collieries Limited will be recapitalised and production will resume, about a month after signing those two agreements.

I thank you, Sir.

DECONGESTING UNIVERSITY TEACHING HOSPITAL

749. Mr Malama (Mfuwe) asked the Minister of Health whether the Government had plans to build another referral hospital in Lusaka to decongest the University Teaching Hospital.

The Deputy Minister of Health (Dr Puma): Mr Speaker, the Government will not build a new hospital to decongest the University Teaching Hospital, but will instead expand some other urban clinics like Chawama, Chilenje, Kanyama and Matero to mini hospitals which will provide laboratory, X-ray, Dental, In-patient, Theatre and Blood Transfusion services.

The Government will also expand Chainama Hills College Hospital into a fully-fledged second level provincial hospital to deal with all referrals from the four districts namely; Lusaka, Luangwa, Chongwe and Kafue.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Malama: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that some patients are given months for their appointments for them to be seen by doctors and some even die before the appointment date due to the long waiting list of patients?

The Minister of Health (Dr Chituwo): Mr Speaker, yes, we are aware of this long waiting list, but everything possible is being done, for instance, such as the recruitment exercise that we have started as well as improving on the equipment available.

Mr Speaker, let me take this opportunity to point out that there are very few countries in this world that, in the area of health provision, do not have waiting lists. The difference between, for instance, the developing and developed world is that for the developed world, the waiting list is invisible. Patients wait in their homes for various consultations, appointments and surgery.

What should be taken into account is that for developing countries like Zambia, we have this double burden of communicable and non-communicable diseases increasing. However, everything possible is being done to minimise on this visible waiting list at UTH.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Mumbi (Munali): Mr Speaker, following the answer given by the hon. Deputy Minister of Health, I am sure he is aware that at the hospital he mentioned (Chainama Hills Hospital), there are so many things that fall under this hospital, which are using the same funding for the Chainama College. For example, there is Chainama Prison. Is the Government going to give this nation a guarantee that when they expand this hospital into a referral hospital for other districts like Luangwa, they are also going to increase the funding?

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, the answer is clearly yes. In fact, Chainama Hills College Hospital’s monthly grant of K400 million per month has gone to something like K900 million per month to take into account the increased services offered at the college and hospital.

Further grants are allocated to institutions according to the bed capacity. Therefore, in this provision of expansion to Chainama Hills Hospital into a provincial hospital, it goes without saying that the funding will be as per a provincial second level hospital.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Speaker, due to the congestion at the University Teaching Hospital, the state of the linen is terrible. What is this ministry doing to improve the quality and quantity of linen at the University Teaching Hospital?

Mr Speaker: The hon. Minister of Health is free to give a bonus answer.

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, I will provide a bonus answer. We are aware of the state of the linen at UTH and many of our institutions. The shortage of linen at UTH arises from two aspects. One is that even when the UTH has spent money to purchase linen, in a very short time, this linen does find its way out of the UTH. My appeal is that, as relatives, when we go to visit our patients, we must desist from packing some of this linen. The other aspect is the issue of the equipment at the laundry which, in fact, is receiving attention in terms of planning. The purchase of such industrial equipment is a capital project and we shall be coming to this House, for this House to allow us to allocate enough resources for new equipment at UTH.

I thank you, Sir.

GWEMBE TONGA DEVELOPMENT PROJECT

750. Mr Ntundu (Gwembe) asked the Minister of Energy and Water Development:

(a) how the assets of the Gwembe Tonga Development Project were disposed of;

(b) what these assets at (a) above were and their monetary value; and

(c) what the total amount of money paid as retirement packages to the workers of the project was.

The Deputy Minister of Energy and Water Development (Mr Sichilima): Mr Speaker, the Gwembe Tonga Development was a Government project that was led by the Ministry of Energy and Water Development. ZESCO was the implementing agent on behalf of the Government. As such, at the end of the project, all remaining materials were handed back to the Government. The Government, in turn, handed over materials and equipment as follows:

Description   Quantity  Handed to

Office furniture     Ministry of Energy and Water 
Development
Siavonga District Council
       Gwembe District Council
       Sinazongwe District Council

Communication equipment 1 Radio Set  Siameja Clinic
    1 Radio Set  Sulwegonde Clinic
    1 Radio Set  Nkandanzovu School
    1 Radio Set  Nkandanzovu Clinic
    2 Radio Sets  Siavonga District Council 
       (Lusitu Community)

Motor Vehicles  10 units  Ministry of Energy and Water
       Development

Camping Equipment  7 units    Ministry of Energy and Water 
       Development

Motor Bike   01 unit   Siavonga – Lusitu.

Mr Speaker, due to the long project period of more than six years, most of the assets at closure were in an un-repaired state and, therefore, at scrap value. All the motor vehicles were non-runners, mainly because of the poor road conditions in the area.

Mr Speaker, the project staff were employed as Zambia Electricity Supply Company (ZESCO) employees and as such, at the end of the project were reassigned within ZESCO Limited. Therefore, retirement packages were not due for payment, except one case of gratuity involving the Public Relations Officer seconded from the Ministry of Information and Broadcasting Services.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Ntundu: Mr Speaker, the Gwembe Tonga Project did not meet its intended objectives. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister, who is fond of misleading this House over this Gwembe Tonga Project. What is the Government going to do about those projects that are incomplete, for example, the electrification of Simasala Basic School and the eighteen incomplete boreholes that were sunk in Chief Chipepo’s Chiefdom?

The Minister of Energy and Water Development (Mr Konga): Mr Speaker, I would like to state that maybe, there are some aspects of the project that were not completed for instance, the school that he mentioned which was not electrified. The Government, as I have said previously, intends to take development to all rural growth centres in the country by either connecting them to the national grid or providing alternative forms of energy like solar.

Therefore, for a place like a school, it will be the Government’s intention to provide it with solar when the resources permit. The hon. Member has said that boreholes were drilled, therefore, I do not know what else he expects from the Government because the boreholes were already sunk.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo): Mr Speaker, the Gwembe Tonga Project had no exit strategy. What will happen to the various items left at the end of the project? Could this be properly put to us. Is it true that the equipment have been shifted to other areas other than the Gwembe Tonga Area?

Mr Konga: Mr Speaker, I thought that was a major question, which the hon. Deputy Minister has ably answered. He has explained how all the assets that remained from the Gwembe Tonga Development Project were distributed. I do not know how else the hon. Member wants us to answer this question because the hon. Deputy Minister has ably elaborated how the assets were distributed.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sichilima: Hear, hear!

Laughter{mospagebreak}

CONSTRUCTION OF TEACHERS’ HOUSES IN CHIPILI PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCY

751. Mr D. Mwila asked the Minister of Education when the Government would construct teachers’ houses at the following schools in Chipili Parliamentary Constituency:

(i) Luongo Basic School;
(ii) Mulunda Basic School;
(iii) Chikaya Basic School;
(iv) Kapenda Basic School;
(v) Chisheta Basic School; and
(vi) Bunda Basic School.

The Deputy Minister of Education (Ms Changwe): Mr Speaker, there are no plans to construct teachers’ houses at the listed schools in Chipili Parliamentary Constituency until after the school mapping exercise has been done.

Mr Speaker, the school mapping exercise is expected to start this Friday, 10th August, 2007. The exercise will involve mapping of the existing infrastructure such as classrooms laboratories, houses, water and sanitation facilities, furniture and also determining the geographical location of the existing schools.

In addition, the results of the exercise will provide a pre-requisite layout investment, prioritise and cost an infrastructure development plan with annual targets. Therefore, it will only be after this exercise that the ministry will be in a position to develop education infrastructure plans to be undertaken throughout the country.

However, these plans will only be implanted in line with the available resources for the ministry for each particular year.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Speaker, now that we are used with assurances which are coming from this Government, could I find out from the hon. Minister whether they have any intentions of reviewing the collective agreement which was signed between the Zambia National Union of Teachers (ZNUT) and the ministry in order for them to review the rural hardship and housing allowances?

Mr Speaker: The hon. Minister of Education may answer that question, only if he wishes to give a bonus answer.

Ms Changwe: Mr Speaker, I am sure the hon. Member understands very well that bargaining is done by the unions, and even if the ministry sign that collective agreement, it can only be revisited when the next bargaining process is in session. Therefore, the answer is that it can only be done during the next bargaining process and the unions are aware of this.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Sinyangwe (Matero): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out whether the school mapping that was done from 2001 to 2002, when I was still in the Ministry of Education, cannot stand now. Those schools have not been built to date, so that excuse cannot suffice.

Ms Changwe: Mr Speaker, may I correct the hon. Member that we are not here to give excuses, but to respond according to the prevailing situation. I am saying that the schools have not been built up to now, but the mapping exercise is supposed to be done every year. Therefore, whatever she left is now stale to us and as such, we have to redo the mapping exercise every year.

I thank you, Sir.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what criterion was used to build seven schools and teachers’ houses in Nalikwanda Constituency at the expense of other constituencies.

Ms Changwe: Mr Speaker, I am not really sure when these schools that the hon. Member is referring to were built. But if he is talking about the schools that we are supposed to build under the 2007 Budget, I am not aware that number of schools are going to that constituency.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chimbaka: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether, apart from the schools that Hon. D. Mwila has asked about, she is aware that one high school in Mansa Central Constituency called Makumba High School, has only one staff house and has no dormitories and our daughters rent houses in the village. This has resulted in most of these innocent young girls getting pregnant because they are vulnerable. If she is aware, what plans has this Government got to protect the lives of these school girls?

Ms Changwe: Mr Speaker, this Government is aware that there is inadequate infrastructure in our institutions of learning. I have just mentioned that we are making an infrastructure audit. Maybe, the hon. Member does not understand that properly …

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: Teach him.

Ms Changwe: … and it is only through this audit that we are going to get the number of infrastructure that should be erected in all our educational …

Mr Chimbaka: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Chimbaka: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Deputy of Education in order to say that I, an educationist and trained labour leader with 30 years of service in the administration of education, is failing to appreciate and understand what she is talking about? I need your serious ruling.

Mr Speaker: Order! The essence of hon. Members of this House asking questions is that they desire to know what is going on. The hon. Deputy Minister of Education is saying that she wants you to understand what she is saying by giving the answer she was giving.

She may continue.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Changwe: Mr Speaker, I had actually finished.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Malama (Mfuwe): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Deputy Minister of Education what action the ministry will take if it is found that seven schools have gone to one constituency.

Mr Speaker: Order! That is hypothetical.

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister tell us how the basic schools that are supposed to be built in this country this year have been distributed, province by province?

Mr Speaker: The hon. Deputy Minister of Education, are you able to give a bonus answer, province by province?

Ms Changwe: Mr Speaker, I would want to be factual therefore, with your permission, we can only come back to this House later to give that answer on the distribution of schools.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chongo (Mwense): Mr Speaker, in the hon. Minister’s statement, she said they carry out infrastructure audits every year. Now that they have the figures, as a result of those audits, how many houses have they built each year? Have they responded to the findings of those audits?

Ms Changwe: Mr Speaker, this question and the one asked previously are supposed to be put in writing so that we can bring detailed answers to them.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Shakafuswa: Hear, hear!

LAND DISPUTE BETWEEN CHIEF MOMBA AND SENIOR CHIEF INYAMBO

752. Mr Mwangala (Nalolo) asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing:

(a) when the Government would resolve the border dispute between Chief Momba in the Southern Province and Senior Chief Inyambo in the Western Province;

(b) why the dispute had taken long to resolve; and

(c) what the effects of the dispute on food production by peasant farmers in the two areas were.

The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr Kazonga): Mr Speaker, the response to the question raised by the hon. Member for Nalolo Constituency from my ministry’s response as follows:

(a) the land dispute between the two chiefs is being attended to by my ministry with the help of the Surveyor-General. The Surveyor-General will have to look at the traditional maps for the purpose of demarcating the two chiefdoms;

(b) the dispute has taken long because the matter was not brought to the attention of my ministry early. This matter was only reported to the House of Chiefs, which is under my ministry, in 2006; and

(c) the boundary dispute between the two chiefs has had little effect on food production by peasant farmers in the area because the dispute has not reached a violent stage. The people of the two chiefdoms have not been reported to be involved in any physical confrontation with each other to disrupt farming activities.

I thank you, Sir.

    

 

Mr Mwangala: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that delays in resolving the land disputes have always had serious repercussions on both food and people’s security?

Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker, yes, indeed, any dispute will in the medium or long term have negative effects. However, in this particular case, there have been no reported negative effects in as far as food security is concerned, because all the subjects on both sides of the Chiefdoms have continued with their agricultural activities. Unless there is an issue of not allowing one to cultivate land as a result of the dispute, that is when ordinarily, we would expect a reduction in food security. Any dispute, obviously, has some negative effects.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Sejani (Mapatizya):  Mr Speaker, following the answer given by the hon. Minister, I would like to know whether, now, it is the Government’s policy to wait for violence and conflict to erupt before it can intervene in disputes.

The Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mrs Masebo): Mr Speaker, I am surprised at that question by the hon. Member of Parliament because we have not said that we have to wait for a dispute or wait until people kill each other before we intervene. We have said that this matter was brought to the attention of the House of Chiefs in 2006. We are pursuing the matter by way of investigations and speaking to the two Chiefs who are involved although this, of course, is a very old case which started in the First Republic.

Indeed, like I said earlier, any dispute is not good for the country and our job is to try and resolve disputes. Currently, there are a number of disputes concerning Chiefs either due to boundaries or succession and we are doing everything we can to assist the Chiefs resolve these according to the law. In this case, we have engaged the Office of the Surveyor General to go on the ground and look at the boundaries and define them so that the problem can be resolved.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Mr Speaker, when his Excellency the President opened the House of Chiefs this year, he said where there are boundary disputes, the map for 1958 should be used.

 I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether they cannot locate this map to resolve this dispute as quickly as possible or as she says, now, the Officer of the Surveyor-General is going to create new boundaries for us.

Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker, we have not said that the Surveyor-General is going to demarcate new boundaries. What we are saying is that the Surveyor-General has the maps for 1958 or 1935 and these are the maps that we shall still use today to define the actual boundaries. The problem is that most of the Chiefs do not have these maps and over the years, some of them cannot remember where exactly their boundary is.

So, when there is a dispute, we get the Surveyor-General to get on the ground and define the maps, since there are there. It is a question of going on the ground and defining the boundaries in terms of the physical features that are found between the two Chiefdoms.

Mr Speaker, if I may shed more light on this matter. This is not even an issue of whether the two Chiefs do not know their boundaries. This matter arose under the UNIP Government when the President of the day decided to allow a certain portion of land which originally was under the Southern Province to go under the Western Province. Under the Constitution, the President is the one that defines boundaries. This was done as a result of some economic activities that were taking place at one of the industries in the Southern Province where the people working at that industry were mainly from the Western Province. I think the materials that were used came from the Western Province. There may have been a decision that part of this land should go on to the other side on account that they wanted the rates or the taxes that were coming from this industry to go to a particular district in the Western Province and not Southern Province, considering that the skills were coming from the Western Province in terms of the people that were employed who were the majority.

So this is a long and historical issue that requires careful analysis by the Government of today to assist the two Chiefs resolve the matter. As I have said, the matter has been brought to our attention and we are dealing with it and hopefully, before long, the issue will be dealt with.

Thank you, Sir.

COMPENSATION FOR ACCOUNT HOLDERS AND DEPOSITORS

753. Mr Ntundu asked the Minister of Finance and National Planning whether the Government had any plans to introduce an insurance scheme which would compel banks and other financial institutions to insure against liquidation so as to compensate account holders and depositors.

The Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Shakafuswa): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform this House that the Government has been contributing to the financial sector since 2004 through the Financial Sector Development Plan (FSDP). The objective of the FSDP is to address a number of weaknesses in the financial sector with a view to ensuring that it plays its vital role in the economic development of the country.

 Among these weaknesses are the lack of deep and broad capital markets and inadequate safety nets for market players. One key safety net which has been identified as missing is a Deposit Protection Scheme (DPS) which is an essential element in the promotion of a savings culture in the economy.

The Government sees the scheme as critical in instilling confidence and attracting more money in the financial sector.  It is a form of assurance to depositors that their deposits or savings are protected in the event a bank or deposit savings non-bank financial institution is placed into liquidation. It will increase confidence and assurance. Savings will, indeed, increase in the country, as without savings, investment is not possible and hence no meaningful economic development.

Sir, under the FSDP, a banking working group has been formed and has been working with the Bank of Zambia on the development and drafting of a Deposit Protection Bill. The drafting of the Bill has reached an advanced stage and once it is finalized, it will be subjected to stakeholders’ review probably during the course of this year.

Based on the work that has been done on the draft Bill so far, it is envisaged that the enactment of the law and establishment of a Deposit Protection Scheme could be achieved in 2008.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Ntundu: Mr Speaker, it took nine years for the depositors and account holders of the Meridian BIAO Bank to be compensated, without interest. This Government is using that money to make more money, and yet the money is for the depositors. What has the Government put in place to ensure that liquidators pay employees promptly? The same thing happened to the United Bus Company of Zambia (UBZ) employees. You are watching the liquidators sitting. What is their job?

Mr Speaker: The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning should ignore that rebuke, but answer the question.

Laughter

Mr Shakafuswa: You are protected!

Hon. Government Member: Hakainde!

Mr Shakafuswa: Mr Speaker, I adequately covered the answer to the question which the hon. Member asked. I would like to assure him that this Government is working. If you are in doubt …

Interruptions

Mr Shakafuswa: … like doubting Thomases, …

Mr Tetamashimba: Hear, hear!

Mr Shakafuswa:  … or you have evidence about someone abusing the resources which are supposed to go towards helping the people of Zambia better their lives from their savings, I would love you to bring that evidence and see this Government work. If you have evidence that the UBZ liquidator is doing the same, just come to my office tomorrow and see what we would be able to do by the end of the week.

Mr Speaker, it is not the Government, but some of the private arrangements that we usually engage in and are defined by law. If you find that a liquidator is not following the liquidation laws, the law will definitely take its course.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Member: Hakainde!

Laughter{mospagebreak}

PURCHASE OF CHIEFS’ VEHICLES AND BICYCLES

754. Mr Chisala (Chilubi) asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing whether there were any plans to buy vehicles and bicycles for chiefs countrywide.

The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr Kazonga): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform this House that the Government has no plans to buy bicycles and vehicles for chiefs, but have planned to purchase thirty-six cars for the chiefs. These vehicles were to be distributed in the provinces for use by the chiefs. Each province was to receive four vehicles for that purpose. The vehicles were to be placed under the custody of the Provincial Administration in each province.

However, when the Members of the House of Chiefs came for their session in May, 2007, they raised concerns over the control and maintenance of the said vehicles. Subsequently, the President at the Official Opening of the House of Chiefs announced that the purchasing of the vehicles for the chiefs would be suspended until the concerns raised by the chiefs had been sorted out. The House of Chiefs considered the matter and resolved that instead of buying four vehicles per province, the Government should consider giving motor vehicle loans to chiefs.

Mr Speaker, the Government is actively considering this resolution by the House of Chiefs.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chisala: Mr Speaker, we are all aware that our chiefs have failed to meet the expected standards of living. The kind of life they are leading is something that should be improved upon by the Government.

My question is: Can the Government find a solution which will alleviate the problems that our chiefs are facing than giving loans that the hon. Minister alluded to?

Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker, we have since started the process of acquiring vehicles and any other equipment that the chiefs desire. The policy of the Government is to extend the motor vehicle loans to Their Royal Highnesses.

However, because of lack of resources, the Government has indicated to the Their Royal Highnesses that the amount which would be given to each Royal Highness would be up to K70 million, looking at the resources that were budgeted for in this year.

They have been given an opportunity to choose the kind of motor vehicle they want. It can either be a van or a tractor so that they are given that which they think would be helpful to them.

To this effect, we have written to all Their Royal Highnesses and so far, we have received responses indicating what they want. Others have indicated that they are interested in motor vehicles while others are interested in farm equipment like tractors which would be used for farming. We hope that this facility will go a long way in facilitating the chiefs in their daily operations.

Mr Speaker, I also informed the House that the ministry has completed the Chiefs’ Policy. This policy is looking at other issues affecting Their Royal Highnesses. These are issues of their palaces, transport, and general welfare, so that we see what the Government can do. We are also looking at what should be the role of the chiefs in development so that we are not seen to be just spending money and not effectively using the chiefs in order for them to assist us in developmental matters.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Dr Scott (Lusaka Central): Mr Speaker, in view of the hon. Minister’s elaborate answer, I am confused by two things. Firstly, are these vehicles intended to capacitate the chiefs to do their jobs through providing communication, ability to visit their subjects or rather a personal asset? In both cases, to me, giving a loan seems to be very strange because if one is lending K70 million to a chief – I am not sure what their allowance is, at the moment, but I assume, it is less than a K1 million per month – how are they supposed to service these loans?

Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker, first of all, the hon. Member of Parliament who has asked that question is advanced a car loan as a Member of Parliament. I wonder whether that car loan is for enjoyment or to help him visit his constituency. Therefore, if I understand how a car loan works for a Member of Parliament, then I want to take it that, it is in the same vein that Their Royal Highnesses have asked. They also want to be mobile within their chiefdoms and be in touch with their communities on matters of development, customs and traditions

Secondly, the hon. Member does not know how much these chiefs get, but he is asking a question with a conclusion that the money they are getting is not sufficient to service this loan.

As a Government, I want to answer by saying that we have taken all those factors into account. We have also come up with a project that is feasible to implement in as far as chiefs are concerned and also, acquiring a vehicle and being able to repay that from within what they are currently getting. Therefore, that has also been considered.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Milupi (Luena): Mr Speaker, in the various answers from the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing, she has continually referred to chiefs as their royal highnesses. According to the English language, the term royal highness refers to a prince or a son of a King. Why is she equating our chiefs to sons of kings rather than their Majesties?

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Order! Is the hon. Minister able to offer a bonus answer?

Laughter

Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker, according to the Zambian tradition, we address our chiefs as royal highnesses although I am also aware that in Western Province, the title is different. Therefore, these are part of traditions that we grew up with, but if the hon. Member wishes to advise us, he can do that and give us these resemblances. Maybe, we may change and correct our English.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

TERMINAL BENEFITS TO FORMER ZCCM EMPLOYEES

755. Mr D. Mwila asked the Minister of Mines and Minerals Development:

(a) how many employees from the following companies were paid their benefits held in trust with the ZCCM Investment Holdings Plc from 2002 to 2006:

(i) Konkola Copper Mines Plc; and

(ii) Mopani copper Mines Plc;

(b) how much money was paid to the affected employees;

(c) how much interest was paid to the affected employees; and

(d) how many former ZCCM employees at (a) above had not been paid their benefits.

The Deputy Minister of Mines and Mineral Development (Mr M. Mwale): Mr Speaker, I would like to inform this House that a total of 2,760 employees from both Konkola Copper Mines Plc and Mopani Copper Mines Plc were paid their benefits held in trust with ZCCM Investments Holdings from 2002 to 2006 as follows:

 Period   Name of Company  Name of Company
     

Konkola    Mopani

 January, 2002 to  323    246
            December, 2002

 January, 2003 to   65    69
            June, 2003 

 July, 2003 to   486    377
 June, 2004

 July, 2004 to   276    589
 June, 2005 

 July, 2005 to   206    123
 June, 2006

 Total    1,356    1,404

Mr Speaker, a total of K48.852 billion was paid to the affected employees broken down as follows:

 Period  Name of Company  Name of Company

    
Konkola    Mopani

 January, 2002 to 4,936    4,438
 December, 2002

 January, 2003 to 1,439    1,482
 June, 2003

 July, 2003 to  10,894    8,643
 June, 2005

 July, 2004 to  6,923    3,319
 June, 2005

 July, 2005 to  4,333    2,445
 June, 2006

Total    28,525    20,327

Mr Speaker, as to part (c) of the question, the Trust Fund was created for payment of accrued benefits at privatisation, relating to employees service with ZCCM Limited.

Sir, the agreed mode of payment was to translate the accrued benefits into US Dollars and to apply the ruling exchange rate at the time of payment. There was no provision for payment of interest.

Mr Speaker, as at June, 2006, a total of 10,861 former ZCCM Limited employees who belonged to both Konkola Copper Mines Plc and Mopani Copper Mines Plc had not been paid their benefit broken down as follows:

 Konkola Copper Mines Plc  6,096

Mopani Copper Mines Plc  4,765

Total      10,861

Mr Speaker, these employees were still in employment at that time. Benefits held in trust are only paid at exit to employees who resign or are dismissed.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister why the money paid to former ZCCM workers is coming from the Government instead of ZCCM Investment Holdings paying from their coffers because it is making a lot of money from mining companies who are declaring dividends.

Mr Mwale: Mr Speaker, ZCCM (IH) is a baby of the Government. Therefore, I fail to understand how the hon. Member for Chipili would want to separate the two. In fact, ZCCM (IH) has not been getting full dividends from the mining companies as it was stated in this House.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

COPPER ORE IMPORTED FROM DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC OF CONGO

756. Mr Kambwili (Roan) asked at the Minister of Mines and Mineral Development how much copper ore the following mining companies had imported from the Democratic Republic of Congo since the importation exercise commenced:

(i) Mopani Copper Mines Plc;

(ii) Konkola Copper Mines Plc;

(iii) Luanshya Copper Mines Plc; and

(iv) Chambishi Metals Plc.

Mr M. Mwale: Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the House that of the companies listed in the question, only two companies namely, Mopani Copper Plc and Chambishi Metals Plc imported copper ore totalling 80,441.77 dry metric tonnes from the Democratic Republic of Congo from 2003 to June, 2007 broken down as follows:

 Year  Mopani Copper Mines Chambishi Metals  Total
   (Copper Ore in DMT)  (Copper Ore in DMT)  

 2003  Nil    Nil    
 2004  332.69    429.34    762.03

 2005  41,589.39   5,468.89   47.058.28

 2006  20,034.66   10,276.30   30,310.96

 2007  to June  2,176.93   133.57    2,310.0
           
 
Total  64,133.67   16,308.10  80,441.77

Mr Speaker, during the period under review, Konkola Copper Mines Plc and Luanshya Copper Mines Plc did not import copper ore from the Democratic Republic of Congo.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

POLE AND GRASS-THATCHED SCHOOLS CONSTRUCTED BEFORE INDEPENDENCE

757. Mr Imenda (Lukulu East) asked the Minister of Education:

(a) how many schools that were constructed before independence were still in pole and grass-thatched state;

(b) which province had the highest number of schools with pole and grass-thatched buildings; and

(c) when modern buildings would be constructed in the schools at ( a) above.

Ms Changwe: Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the House that they are ninety-one schools that were constructed before independence in pole and grass-thatched state as listed below:

  Province  Number of Schools
  
Eastern   10

Luapula  6

North-Western  1

Northern  16

Southern  14

Western   32

Central   10

Copperbelt  1

Lusaka   Nil

Total   91

  
Therefore, Western Province has the highest number of schools with pole and grass-thatched buildings totalling thirty-two.

With regard to the issue of construction, the ministry plans to reconstruct these schools into permanent structures starting this year, 2007.

I thank you, Sir.
TIMBER ROYALTIES

758. Mr Simama (Kalulushi) asked the Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources:

(a) how much money in timber royalties had been received by the Western and Southern provinces from 2001 to 2006;

(b) how much money had been realised from timber licences from the following tree species during the above period:

(i) pericorpsis angolensis (Mubanga);

(ii) rose wood; and

(iii) baikiaea plurijuga (Mukusi) and

(c) how much revenue from timber royalties licences had been allocated to the local people and for the replacement of trees.

The Deputy Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources (Mr Kaingu): Mr Speaker, first of all, both provinces do not collect royalties, but I am sure the hon. Member of Parliament is referring to revenue. If it is revenue he is referring to, then I wish to inform this House that the money received from timber royalties by Western and Southern provinces for the period 2001 to 2006 were K6,753,873,082.00 and K1,112,305,330.00 respectively. The total amount for the two provinces was K7,866,178,413. The details of the break down are given as follows:

Western Province

Year Amount in Kwacha

2001   504,101,645.00
2002   514,366,226.00
2003   452,003,565.00
2004 1,969,860,524.00
2005 1,796,311,074.00
2006 1,517,230,048.00

Total 6,753,873,082.00

Southern Province

Year Amount in Kwacha

2001    138,242,560.00
2002    131,039,320.00
2003      90,667,829.00
2004    240,902,272.00
2005    279,821,930.00
2006    231,631,419.00

Total 1,112,305,330.00

Sir, with regard to part (b), Western and Southern provinces do not have pericopsis angolensis (Mubanga) tree species; instead the provinces have a high density of Mukwa (pterocarpus angolensis).

The amount of money realised from timber licences for rosewood (Muzauli) and baikiaea plurijuga (Mukusi) for the period 2001 to 2006 were as follows:

Mr Muntanga interjected.

Mr Kaingu: Hon. Muntanga is not happy with my answer.

Laughter{mospagebreak}

Mr Kaingu: Western Province raised K2,062,078,235.00 from rosewood and K1,903,645,293.00 from baikiaea plurijuga (Mukusi) bringing the total amount to K3,965,723,528.00 for the period 2001 to 2006.

Details of the break down are:

Year Rosewood Baikiaea
 (Muzauli) Plurijuga
 Kwacha (Mukusi)
  Kwacha

2001    102,836,735.00    28,733,793.00
2002      61,322,400.00    28,710,000.00
2003      62,992,000.00    33,240,000.00
2004 1,024,420,500.00   290,155,500.00
2005    427,754,250.00   733,415,000.00
2006    382,942,350.00   749,385,000.00
Total 2,062,078,235.00 1,903,645,293.00

It should be noted that no money was raised from the licences for pericopsis angolensis (Mubanga) as the species does not exist in the province.

Southern Province raised K16,869,879.00 from rosewood and K198,877,571.00 from baikiaea plurijuga (Mukusi), bringing the total amount to K215,747,441.00 for the period 2001 to 2006. The following is the break down of the details:

Year Rose Wood Baikiaea
  (Muzauli) Plurijuga
  Kwacha (Mukusi)
   Kwacha
2001 9,622,800 105,819,000
2002 3,240,000 32,547,532
2003 4,007,070 17,369,367
2004 0 11,165,000
2005 0 17,265,000
2006 0 14,691,672
TOTAL 16,869,870 198,877,571

Mr Speaker, again, it will be noted that because there is very little Pericopsis Angolensis (Mubanga) species in the Southern Province, no money was raised from licences.

Mr Speaker, no revenue from royalties was allocated to the local people in the two provinces directly from the Ministry. This is because the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources, like many Government Ministries and Departments that collect non-tax revenue, is guided by financial regulations which restrict Government revenue from being put to immediate usage by the collecting ministry or agent.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Simama: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that going by the sale figures he has given in his reply trees are finishing and nothing trickles down to the indigenous Zambians who plant and conserve the trees? Is the hon. Minister aware that when our grandchildren grow, they will find completely nothing? They will just find history that there used to be trees like Rose Wood, Muzauli, Baikiaea, Plurijuga and Mukusi. What is the hon. Minister thinking about our grandchildren?

Mr Kaingu: Mr Speaker, it is not true that the trees are finishing.

Interruptions

Mr Kaingu: Mr Speaker, the Ministry has a programme in the Southern and Western Provinces through poverty reduction. Mr Speaker, Mukusi and Mukwa are not planted like pine. These two trees propagate themselves and so the job of the Forestry Department is to sell the small trees and save them by putting firebreaks and pruning. Mr Speaker, there is no need for Hon. Simama to panic because we have the trees and they will grow to be seen by our grandchildren.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sikota (Livingstone): Mr Speaker, in view of the statement by the hon. Minister that the trees are not finishing, I would like him to comment on the report in one of the media that Zambia is one of the countries with the highest rate of deforestation in Africa.

Mr Kaingu: Mr Speaker, deforestation is not caused by cutting down of Mukusi, but it is by encroachment which most hon. Members here are aware of because it is done under their noses and they are not helping us …

Laughter

Mr Kaingu: Mr Speaker, we are appealing to them because the forests are in their constituencies and they are seeing people encroaching the forests, but are doing nothing about it.

My appeal to hon. Members is to help us conserve our forests.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Mumbi (Munali): Mr Speaker, following the report we got yesterday at Yatsani Radio concerning the people of Moomba who the Catholics are taking care of by educating them because they have no trees to use as firewood for cooking, can the hon. Minister confirm whether the Government has a deliberate programme to replant trees because the trees are truly being depleted.

The Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources (Mr Pande): Mr Speaker, the Ministry or the Government has a programme for replanting. What is happening now is that if you ask for a licence to cut Mukusi, Mukwa or other trees, before you are given that licence, we will require you to provide us with a programme of replanting.

In addition, we have a tree planting day this year and every year. This year we have planned that each and every hon. Member must be involved in this programme. We are looking to the time when each and every able-bodied Zambian will plant a tree every year. This is in the programme and plans are underway. In addition, the ministry is creating clubs in schools on environment which will also involve tree planting. Therefore, Sir, I would like to confirm that there is a programme of tree planting.

I thank you, Sir.

AFFILIATION OF ALL TEACHER TRAINING COLLEGES TO UNZA

759. Mr Chimbaka (Bahati) asked the Minister of Education whether there were any plans to affiliate all the teacher training colleges to the University of Zambia and, if so, when.

Mrs Changwe: Mr Speaker, the ministry has plans to affiliate all teacher training colleges to the University of Zambia. At the moment, five colleges are affiliated and these are Nkrumah, NISTCOL, ZAMISE, David Livingstone and Copperbelt Teachers’ College.

Mr Speaker, the other ten colleges have been provisionally affiliated to the University of Zambia for three years. This means from 2007 to 2010, the University will work with these institutions to upgrade their curriculum, moderate the examinations, and build their capacities while the ministry will provide learning materials. Under the provisional affiliation, the college will use the reviewed curriculum to offer examinations that will be underwritten by the university.

Mr Speaker, after 2010, the university will affiliate each institution separately after meeting the minimum set standards. Therefore, the role of the university will be to ensure that standards of the colleges are maintained. The affiliation to the university will enable students from the colleges get exemptions in related programmes when applying for admission at the university.

I thank you, Sir.

Interruptions.

Mr Speaker: Order! Next Question, the hon. Member for Mfuwe.

Mr Malama: Mr Speaker, I thank you. Question No. 760.

Mr Speaker: Order! I realise that the hon. Member for Bahati was not alert.

Laughter

Mr Chimbaka: I was, Mr Speaker.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: You may ask your supplementary question.

Laughter

Mr Chimbaka: Mr Speaker, I thank you for your kindness.

Sir, is the provisional arrangement the hon. Minister of Education alluded to agreeable with the policy education document, “Educating Our Future,” which my hon. Colleague, Hon. Sinyangwe, and I contributed to when she may have been suckling on her mother’s breast, a thing that is being pursued or followed?

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Order! May the hon. Member withdraw that unparliamentary phrase referring to “suckling breasts”?

Mr Chimbaka: Mr Speaker, I withdraw the phrase.

Ms Changwe: Mr Speaker, we are well aware that whatever is in the policy document of 1996, is binding. However, realising that the world, curriculum and education are dynamic, we can waive what is there if it is in the interest of development. As such, we are actually looking at ways in which we can upgrade our Teacher Training Colleges by affiliating them provisionally to the university lecturers. If we do not do that provisionally, then the university lecturers will not have an input in the curriculum, besides the need for capacity building for the college lecturers.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order! And now, the hon. Member for Mfuwe.

DAMAGED GOVERNMENT VEHICLES AUCTION

760. Mr Malama asked the Minister of Works and Supply why the ministry took too long to auction damaged Government vehicles.

The Deputy Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Tetamashimba): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the House that the auctioning of damaged Government vehicles involves three ministries. These are the user Ministry, Ministry of Works and Supply and the Ministry of Finance and National Planning. The process of disposal, therefore, begins with the user ministry which decides which Government vehicles are to be disposed of. The list of such vehicles is then sent to the Ministry of Works and Supply for inspection and boarding.

Sir, after inspection and recommendation by the Ministry of Works and Supply to the user ministry on the vehicles, the user ministry then writes to the Ministry of Finance and National Planning who grant the authority to dispose of the vehicles by authorising the user ministry to convene a board of survey to recommend the mode of disposal.

Mr Speaker, there are mainly two ways of disposal of Government vehicles. The vehicles can, therefore, only be disposed by public auction or internal tender under the supervision of the Ministry of Finance and National Planning.

Sir, the public auction is done by the Public and Private Auctioneers, just like the Internal Auctioneers. The disposal of Government vehicles is, therefore, an articulate process, and due to the guiding policy, may take long just to ensure that the correct thing is done.

Mr Speaker, the House may wish to note that due to a shortage of transport in Government organisations, some units of the Government take long to decide on disposal of their damaged vehicles opting to repair the vehicles instead. However, they nevertheless, eventually resort to the same conclusion, that is, to dispose of the vehicles as costs of repair increase.

Mr Speaker, you may also wish to note that Government vehicles are insured, and in case of damage as a result of an accident, the insurance process has to be followed. The auctioning of Government vehicles even when boarded cannot be done every month. A time is set during the year when the auction takes place so as to reduce the cost of auctioning. In most cases, the auction is carried out by Government approved auctioneers in order to enhance transparency and accountability.

Sir, the ministry wishes to inform the House that, under that the two types of auctions, there is some abuse by some workers in that while the policy for sale to Government workers was made in good faith to allow the civil servants also own vehicles, some civil servants have abused this policy by bidding higher on behalf of other people who are not civil servants, depriving other genuine civil servants who would want to own the vehicles that were being used by the Government.

Others have abused the system by buying more than one vehicle every time there is an auction of Government vehicles at the expense of other civil servants. As a ministry, we are finding ways of trying to make civil servants utilise the facility as per the intention of the Government of making many of them benefit and not a few.

Mr Speaker, we are also planning to find a good mechanism in which all Government vehicles that have not been running for over two years can be auctioned as some of them end up being vandalised or cannibalised by some workers who may get parts from one vehicle to the other due to failure by the respective ministry to get funding for the repairs.

Therefore, the perceived delay is as result of the ministries doing a good job for the sake of transparency in our dealings so that property of the people of Zambia is not disposed of in such a manner that can cause loss to tax payers, who are the ultimate owners of all Government properties.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

THE SALE OF COPPER AND COBALT IN CHAMBISHI TOWN

761. Mr Simama asked the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning how the people of Chambishi Town had benefitted from the sale of copper and cobalt mined in the town.

Mr Shakafuswa: Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the august House that in terms of employment over 1,000 people, mainly, Chambishi residents are employed at Chambishi Mines. Additionally, a number of Chambishi residents are also employed by companies conducting business with Chambishi Metals.

As a result of good returns on the sale of metals, the company provides the lowest salary of K1.8 million per month with a 25 per cent Housing Allowance. The company also pays rates to the council amounting to K850 million per annum.

Sir, the company provides medical and recreational facilities for its employees. The facilities are also extended to Chambishi residents. The company support small community development initiatives through the Bakabomba Trust Fund. This is a community development initiative facilitated by Chambishi Metals and a number of Chambishi residents have benefited from the fund through the support of venture in business, education and training.

Mr Speaker, the training centre is open to Chambishi residents for training in block making, candle making, wire mesh making and peanut butter making. Chambishi Metals plc. supports the Anti-Malaria Programme such as the Roll Back Malaria Campaign.

All houses within a 10 kilometre radius are sprayed. This is jointly undertaken with the District Health Management Team. Additionally, the company supports HIV/AIDS programmes and other health activities, such as, measles campaign and nutrition education.

Chambishi Metals Plc has also built a community school called St. Nicholas School, which is situated in Zambia Compound in Chambishi Township and, currently, enrols over 800 underprivileged pupils from within Chambishi Township.

The company supports a number of sports, such, as youth football, rugby, table tennis, netball, handball, karate, weight lifting, boxing and athletics in Chambishi townships. In addition, the recreation centre which is right in the heart of Chambishi Township has been built for the benefit of the entire community.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

MUOYO BAROTSE ROYAL PALACE

762. Mr Mwangala (Nalolo) asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing:

(a) when the deep crack caused by heavy rains behind the Barotse Royal Palace in Muoyo would be covered; and

(b) whether the Government had taken measures to prevent the recurrence of the incident above since the crack was due to damage to the soil by heavy rains.

Mr Kazonga: Mr Speaker, with regard to part (a) of the question, the Government has no specific policy on the rehabilitation of chiefs’ palaces. However, in the past, the Government has selectively or wholesomely provided funding at intervals to intervene and assist our honourable chiefs in the rehabilitation of chiefs’ palaces, which by and large are dependent on the local community or subjects in their respective chiefdoms. In certain cases, the private sectors and general citizenry have been contributing significantly to the rehabilitation of chiefs’ palaces as a matter of courtesy.

Sir, for part (b), the Government has not taken any measures to prevent the recurrence of such incidences as in most cases this is caused by natural calamities.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwangala: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that the palace and the Kuta will be raised down causing further damages if the deep cut is not covered. Unless the deep cut is covered before the coming of the rains urgently, it will be an embarrassment to the Government for the failure?

Mr Kazonga: Mr Speaker, first of all, I wish to state that the Government does not have a specific budget line for that purpose, but we are working on the policy that is going to guide us. However, that being an emergency as it is, I would propose that the hon. Member can present that …

Mr Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.{mospagebreak}

Mr Kazonga: Mr Speaker, when business was suspended, I was responding to the supplementary question that was raised by the hon. Member for Nalolo Constituency (Mr Mwangala) in which he was asking if we aware of the problem at Muoyo Barotse Royal Palace.

Indeed, we are aware about that problem except that I indicated that we do not have a policy, at the moment, that deals with chiefs’ issues. However, we are working on the draft document which we hope to finalise as soon as possible. Further, we do not have a provision to look at rehabilitation of chiefs’ palaces in our budget this year.

Now, bearing in mind these two constraints, how do we move forward? I have two proposals to make to the hon. Member. First of all, looking at that emergency, it is possible to also contact the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit as one option. Secondly, the hon. Member can also consider mobilising his fellow subjects to rehabilitate that particular palace. We are all subjects of our chiefs and whatever contribution we make, will go a long way in helping our chiefs.

Generally, I propose that they mobilise their resources as subjects in that area. The hon. Member can consider that particular issue so that by the time the rain starts, that issue would have been solved.

We are aware that some of these issues are random. The heavy rain that we experienced came as a random variable. In some cases, you never know what would happen to that sole structure as a result of the heavy rains. Therefore, it would be nice for you, hon. Member for Nalolo to mobilise yourselves as subjects, to consider assisting the chief.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze): Mr Speaker, it is generally understood that my cousins, the Lozi people, are very hard working and that is why Nakambala Sugar Estate recruits people from Western Province.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: Surely, is it not possible, through the hon. Minister, that the people who celebrate disaster can not manage to address this issue?

Laughter

Mr Kazonga: Mr Speaker, I wish to thank the hon. Member for Monze for the very good suggestion that he has proposed to the people in that area that disaster management is properly handled.

I am sure the hon. Member of Parliament has taken note of that.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sinyinda (Senanga): Mr Speaker, I do not know if the hon. Minister is aware that the crack that the hon. Member of Parliament for Nalolo is talking about is not in the palace, but the road from the palace to Nayuma.

Secondly, I would like to know whether the Ministry of Local Government and Housing is contemplating introducing a deliberate programme to encourage people plant trees in order to avoid soil erosion like what happened in Muoyo.

Mr Kazonga: Mr Speaker, for the first part of the question, where he is indicating that the crack is not in the palace, but maybe behind it. Regardless of where it is, what we know is that there is a problem and we need to address it. This is why we are proposing that the subjects can also make contributions to assist their chief.

With regard to the planting of trees, of course, this also linked to what the hon. Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources was talking about. Soil erosion can also be prevented by using the concept of tree planting. Therefore, it is possible to take that into consideration in order to reduce or prevent soil erosion.

I thank you, Sir.

ACQUIREMENT OF AMBULANCE FOR GWEMBE DISTRICT HOPSITAL

763. Mr Ntundu (Gwembe) asked the Minister of Health:

(a) when an ambulance for Gwembe District Hospital would be acquired to transport patients other than those of the District Health Board; and

(b) whether there were any plans to repair the Gwembe District Health Board vehicles that were dilapidated.

The Deputy Minister of Health (Dr Puma): Mr Speaker, the Government has budgeted for the purchase of ambulances and utility vehicles that will serve health centres in each district. The procurement process has already commenced.

The Gwembe District Health Management Team has three vehicles. The District Health Management Team appreciates the fact that the vehicles are quite old. In this regard, there is a schedule for vehicle maintenance to keep the vehicles in good shape. This is in line with the Decentralisation Policy, whereby the district prioritises its expenditure.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Ntundu: Mr Speaker, my question was very simple and straight forward. I have asked the hon. Minister when the ministry will acquire an ambulance for Gwembe District Hospital. That is the question.

Dr Puma: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member is aware that in this year’s Budget, an allocation was made for the procurement of vehicles for all the districts in the country. This is why I have mentioned that the process has started and the funds have already been released.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo): Mr Speaker, the question from the hon. Member for Gwembe is about an ambulance for Gwembe Hospital for transporting patients other than the members of the health board. I would like to know whether the ambulance which is there now is not being used to carry patients, but only members of staff.

Dr Puma: Mr Speaker, the current system of management that we are using in the districts is that first level hospitals are under district management. When we release vehicles, they go to district management and then they are assigned to first level hospitals. In this situation, the vehicles will be released to the District Health Management Team who will prioritise to either the district hospital or other centres within their jurisdiction.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out exactly when these ambulances that they have started procuring will be in our districts.

Dr Puma: Mr Speaker, I have mentioned that the funds have already been released. When we are doing Government business, it is not like when you have the money you can just go to Toyota Zambia and say, ‘here is the money, tomorrow give me the vehicles.’ It is a process and that is why I have said the procedure has already started so Toyota Zambia will now start assembling the vehicles.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Dr Puma: Toyota Zambia will actually determine how long it will take. If they can supply within two or three months, they will do so. If they will supply after four or five months, then that will be the case. The situation of procurement everywhere is the same. Even here as Members of Parliament, we have had situations whereby we order vehicles and do not know when they will come. I have confirmed that the money is in our accounts, the process of procurement has already started, hence we have to wait for the process to take its own course.

I thank you, Sir.

LOSS INCURED BY MOPANI COPPER MINES PLC DURING FLOODING OF MUFULIRA MINE IN APRIL, 2007

764. Mr D. Mwila (Chipili) asked the Minister of Mines and Minerals Development how much loss was incurred by the Mopani Copper Mines Plc during the flooding of the Mufulira Mine in April, 2007.

Mr M. Mwale: Mr Speaker, I would like to inform the House as follows:

Mopani Copper Mines Plc incurred a loss of US$1,850,000 during the flooding of the Mufulira Mine at the 1357 and 1373 metre levels in April, 2007. There was no loss of life or injury. However, a substation which had been isolated and switched off was the only infrastructure which was submerged.

The House may wish to know that the flooding of the mine was attributed to the following:

(i) A deficient system of dewatering in that there was not enough advance dewatering ahead of development (dewatering is usually done many years ahead of production to ensure that the production areas are dry or free of trapped water); and

(ii) water pump failure.

The House may also wish to know that the company was able to contain the flooding situation through mobilisation of men and resources to pump the water to the 1360 metre level main chamber from where water is subsequently pumped to the 430 metre level pump station and eventually to the surface. The company put in place the following measures:

(i) De-watering to be done from the levels below working areas at the 1390 metre level.

(ii) To increase the de-watered ore reserve stock ahead of production by intensifying capital development.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Speaker, the flooding of Mufulira Mine has not happened for the first time. I want to find out from the hon. Minister whether the Mines Safety Department normally monitors the operations of the underground mining, especially at Mopani.

Mr M. Mwale: Mr Speaker, I would like to commend the hon. Member for Chipili for his concern over our mines and the manner in which they operate. The House has been informed on a number of occasions that the Mines Safety Department has intensified its inspection tours of the mining operations. The House has been informed that the ministry has recruited more mining inspectors and has also bought new vehicles for the Mines Safety Department to facilitate their inspection tours.

Mr Speaker, the issue of de-watered ore reserve resource is one that the Mines Safety Department has emphasised to the operating division because, normally in any mining operations, de-watering is three years ahead of a production phase. This is what the Mines Safety Department is emphasising to the operating division.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Chanda (Kankoyo): Mr Speaker, mine townships depend on water from underground for their domestic use, and looking at the methods that the new mine owners are using, there is likelihood that when there is a flood, it will contaminate the water table. I would like to find out what this Government and Mopani have put in place to avoid contaminating the water table.

Mr M. Mwale: Mr Speaker, in fact, at the moment in Mufulira, the water used for domestic purposes is from underground. That water can be contaminated from blasting and even from chemicals due to a number of activities underground. However, the company has the facility to treat that water to make it portable to the residents of Mufulira.

Mr Speaker, as long as those operations are going on and are being undertaken by Mopani, which has exhibited high level of competence, the contamination which is worrying the hon. Member of Parliament will not occur. However, the new mining operation which has been taking place in Mufulira, which is the leaching operation and I am sure that is what the Member of Parliament is concerned about, was at commissioning stage. The Members may wish to know that that was the first place that leaching operations have taken place in Zambia. That being the first operation, there was a problem during the commissioning stage. However, it is now under control.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Chongo (Mwense): Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for acknowledging that some of these problems are being caused as a result of these miners doing away with mining requirements. Is the hon. Minister aware that currently the mine is still recycling the water underground because of lack of outage? The pump chambers are not enough to discharge this water on to the surface.  If he is aware, what are they doing?

Mr M. Mwale: Mr Speaker, the House should realise that Mopani is a business entity which would like to make money and cannot allow a situation as the one that the hon. Member is referring to to continue. Mr Speaker, the ministry is fully aware that the situation is now under control and they have intensified the de-watering process in Mopani.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukanga: Thank you Mr Speaker. Arising from the answer that the hon. Minister …

Mr Kambwili: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised. I hope that is procedural.

Mr Kambwili: Yes.

Mr Speaker, I stand on a very serious point of order. This Government, through their answers with their Ministers, has continued to mislead this House with impunity.

Mr Speaker: Order!

You cannot start a point of order in that fashion.

Mr Kambwili: I will change.

Mr Speaker: You cannot change. The hon. Member for Kantanshi may continue.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, arising from the answer that the hon. Minister has given, I would like him to clarify because in situ leaching is a method in which acid is pumped into a rock in order to get copper out of that rock and in the process contaminating the water table in that very rock. What permanent measure has been put in place to prevent that recurrence of the water being contaminated because the water has always been contaminated? Even last week, that problem was almost there. I want to find out from him.

Mr M. Mwale: Mr Speaker, the company has put in place monitoring systems to ensure that the drinking water level contamination does not increase. In fact, the company itself has a better water treatment plant than the hon. Member would wish for.

Thank you, Sir.

Laughter

RAMCOZ IN RECEIVERSHIP

765. Mr Kambwili (Roan) asked the Minister of Finance and National Planning:

(a) how much of the RAMCOZ debt had been liquidated since the company was put into receivership;

(b) how much debt had not been liquidated;

(c) what the value of the assets to be sold was; and

(d) whether the Receiver’s office was needed and, if so, why.

Mr Shakafuswa: Mr Speaker, I wish to inform this august House that the RAMCOZ debt has not yet been liquidated since the sale of the RAMCOZ assets has not yet been concluded.

Further, RAMCOZ still has an outstanding debt of over K422.9 billion. Of this amount, approximately K387.2 billion is owed to various creditors, whilst K35.9 billion is owed to the Government, pursuant to the Debenture Deed the Government paid to ZANACO to take over the receivership.

Mr Speaker, I wish to inform this House that the value of the assets under RAMCOZ to be sold is approximately K142 billion.

Further, I wish to inform you that the receiver’s office is needed to manage the affairs of the company in receivership, and to facilitate the windup of its operations. In this regard, the office of the receiver has the responsibility to sell the assets and pay the creditors according to the laid down receivership laws.

I thank you Mr Speaker.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, there are over 20,000 houses, which are supposed to be sold by the Receiver in Luanshya. With the coming of the Milyashi Open Pit Mine, Luanshya Copper Mine has offered to buy these houses so that the suppliers, who were not paid by RAMCOZ, could be paid, yet, your Receiver has been dragging his feet. What is your Government doing to make sure that these houses are sold immediately so that the suppliers are paid?

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shakafuswa: Mr Speaker, RAMCOZ is a limited company, and as a limited company, it went into financial problems. As a Government, we have just come in to help the situation.

 Therefore, the liquidation process which every limited company going into liquidation undergoes has to be taken into consideration. However, if you feel the process has been slow, we can come in and find out why this has been so. This issue should be between the Receivers, but if you have evidence that a Receiver is stalling the disposal of assets, let us know. However, you have to understand that if, for example, a person wants to get an asset at K2, it may not be reasonable for the Receiver to accept that because for him to recover what is owed, he cannot let assets go just like that. Therefore, there are a lot of things which have to be taken into consideration as we dispose of the assets.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Ms Mumbi (Munali): Mr Speaker, the people who are supposed to get money from RAMCOZ through the Receiver are suffering, and yet, the Receiver of RAMCOZ is a president of a political party. As a Government, what course of action are you going to take to deal with this Receiver who is failing to pay the people that are suffering?

 The Minister of Finance and National planning (Mr Magande): Mr Speaker, Hon. Kambwili has been very consistent on the issue of RAMCOZ. I wish he was in the House right now to confirm that during this sitting of Parliament, we have answered questions on the problems of RAMCOZ.

The question raised by the hon. Member of Parliament for Munali, and the manner in which she raised it, indicates that she does not know and has not been aware of the questions that her neighbour has been raising in the House.

Major Chizhyuka: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Major Chizhyuka: Mr Speaker is the hon. Member of Parliament for Munali in order to suggest that the Receiver of RAMCOZ is a leader of a political party when, in actual fact, when this question was raised and answered by the Government, they mentioned that a Mr Mulenga was the Receiver. Is Mr Mulenga a leader of a political opposition party in Zambia, today? Is that hon. Member of Parliament in order?

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order! Under normal circumstances, I would have stopped the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning from continuing with the answer to that supplementary question. However, in view of that point of order, where it has been suggested that the name of the Receiver on this subject was at one point mentioned in this House, I would like the hon. Minister when he resumes answering, to clarify whether the Receiver of RAMCOZ is, in fact, the head of a political party in Zambia. The hon. Minister may continue.

Mr Magande: Mr Speaker, I was explaining that the issue of RAMCOZ has been here, even before this new House. One of the difficulties which raised, was that the Receiver was taking too long and was very expensive. We explained in this House that where the liquidator becomes unbearably costly, the Government normally moves that kind of Receivership or process to the Office of the Administrator-General.

We did move and terminate the liquidation arrangement of Grant-Thornton some time last year. The current receiver is the Administrator-General, which is an office of the Government. So, I do not know which leader of a political party is now a Receiver at RAMCOZ.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Magande: Mr Speaker, if your left side has any other information, they can let the Government know and we will sort it out. We do not want your political leaders to be engaged and interfere in Government operations where people end up suffering.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

EARNINGS THROUGH ELECTRICITY EXPORT

766. Mr Imenda (Lukulu East) asked the Minister of Energy and Water Development:

(a) how much foreign exchange is anticipated to be earned from the export of electricity to Kenya and Tanzania through the Project Management Unit (PMU); and

(b)  what is the benefit/cost analysis of the PMU given the power deficit in the   
 country.

The Deputy Minister of Energy and Water Development (Mr Sichilima): Mr Speaker, the Project Management Unit (PMU) is a unit that will be set up to oversee the construction of the Zambia, Tanzania, Kenya inter-connector. The unit will be manned by officers from the three participating countries, although it will be domiciled in Lusaka. The three Governments will set up a special company that will be responsible for wheeling i.e. transporting power from Pensulo to Tanzania and Kenya. The wheeling charges are estimated to be in the range of 42 million US dollars.

In terms of trade, ZESCO will enter into Power Purchase Agreements with Kenya Power and Lighting and Tanzania Electricity Supply Company. About 2800 gigawatt hours of electric energy are expected to be traded annually.

Mr Speaker, although the price has not been agreed, it is estimated that this represents not less than US $82 million of revenue per year.

Sir, the Southern Africa Power Pool has sufficient power to meet the needs of the Zambia/ Tanzania/Kenya Inter-connector. Countries in the region have intensified efforts to avert the power shortage. ZESCO will be supported by SAPP in the event that ZESCO cannot meet the requirements of the Inter-connector. The costs of the PMU are part of the project costs and account for less than1 per cent of the investment costs.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Imenda: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister how he wishes to reconcile the current shortage of power in view of the continuous blackouts and power sharing. How does he reconcile that with the export of power to neighbouring countries?

Mr Konga: Mr Speaker, as you are aware, this Government is investing in hydro-power generation. The inter-connector is not necessarily meant to wheel power generated in Zambia. The inter-connector can wheel power outside Zambia from within the region. That is what is called the Southern Africa Power Pool. All the countries in the region are investing in new generation because the potential for new generation lies within the SAPP. Our colleagues in the northern part of our borders have little capacity to invest in new generation. Therefore, the inter-connector that is being put in place now is not necessarily meant to wheel or transport power today or tomorrow when there is a shortage. This inter-connector is still being discussed. Once it is put in place, maybe, after a year’s time, there will be sufficient power within the sub-region to export power to East Africa.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: Mr Speaker, would the hon. Minister confirm that, in fact, the wheeling of power from the surplus areas to the deficit areas is the one way in which Zambia can take advantage of its geographical position and that this Government must quicken the process of doing that because there are other routes being considered. For example, on the route from the DRC to Southern Africa, there is a Western Corridor which might bypass Zambia and therefore, we will not benefit from the wheeling of power…

Mr Tetamashimba: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised. Is it procedural?

Mr Tetamashimba: Mr Speaker, it is procedural.

Mr Speaker, this House has been told that before you debate or ask questions on matter in which you have vested interest, you have to say it  so that as you debate, and in answering to your debate, Mr Speaker will be able to guide. Is the hon. Member of Parliament for Luena who has shares in Copperbelt Energy Corporation (CEC) in order to debate without telling us about his interest in the power company? I need your serious ruling, Mr Speaker.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Order!

Did the hon. Member for Luena make reference to CEC? What does that mean? If any hon. Member in this House refers to a subject on the Floor of this House in which he or she has pecuniary interest, before starting the question or the debate, that Member is required to declare interest.

Would the hon. Member for Luena wish to declare interest now before the hon. Minister answers?

Laughter

Mr Milupi: One: zero.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! Hammer!

Mr Milupi: Mr Speaker, the question being debated is a very serious question because right now, Zambia has a deficit of power and with the vast expansion of load in the industry, including the mining load, we are going to get more and more serious problems, especially the households who are usually the first ones to suffer when there is a power shortage which is already being experienced by load shading. Therefore, one of the ways to alleviate that is to get involved in the power wheeling. It has nothing to do with the Copperbelt Energy Corporation (CEC). However, if the hon. Minister wants shares in there, he can go and buy some.

Laughter

Mr Milupi: The question is that could the Government, through the ministry, accelerate this wheeling arrangement which is for ZESCO to benefit, not the Copperbelt Energy Corporation, so that the whole country benefits from this wheeling arrangement, which I think the US $80 million that he has talked about is far too little. The correct amount is nearer US $200 million to the coffers of this country, if we do it correctly.

Mr Speaker: I rule that the hon. Member has made no reference to his shares in the CEC.

Laughter

Mr Konga: Mr Speaker, the Government is aware of the other efforts being made to put up other inter-connectors in the region and it is doing everything possible to accelerate the completion of the Zambia/Tanzania/Kenya Inter-connector.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Chimumbwa (Nchanga): Mr Speaker, with the perpetual problems which come about due to problems with the power generation at the water plant, is the Government considering introducing thermal power generation in the country to help out in this area?

Mr Konga: Mr Speaker, the policy of the Government vis-à-vis the energy sector is that all forms of energy will be exploited, that is, the traditional hydro-power generation from our generating plants in the south. We are also considering other forms of energy such as sustainable energy through solar and bio fuels. As a Government, we are exploiting the possibilities of utilising thermal power in the country where such opportunities exist, for instance, utilising coal from Maamba Collieries.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.{mospagebreak}

IMPLEMENTATION OF THE 1999 FOREST ACT

767. Mr Simama asked the Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources when the provisions of the 1999 Forest Act would be implemented.

Mr Kaingu: Mr Speaker, I would like to inform the House that my ministry will only effect the implementation of the Forest Act No. 7 of 1999, subject to the outcome of the consultations to be undertaken with stakeholders.

In this year’s budget, my ministry has set aside K100 million to facilitate these consultations with stakeholders, including the privates sector, Non-Governmental Organisations (NGOs) and the relevant Government ministries.

The need for these consultations arose from the fact that a number of developments have taken place in the past eight years or so since the Act was passed by Parliament and assented to by the President. These developments have not made it possible for the commencement of the Act to be implemented. One such major factor is the huge retrenchment bill to be paid to the Forestry Department and the Zambia Forestry and Forest Industries Corporation (ZAFFICO) Limited staff upon commencement of the implementation of the Act and the establishment of the Forestry Commission, a body corporate, which according to the 1999 Act will replace the Forestry Department and ZAFFICO.

At the time of enacting the Bill, the retrenchment cost for the Forestry Department was estimated to be K34.6 billion and for ZAFFICO Limited, it was estimated at K9.2 billion, bringing the total to K43.8 billion. As of now, the cost is estimated to have shot to well over K60 billion.

Therefore, Mr Speaker, the consultations are meant to chart the way forward as it is becoming apparent that the Government may not be in a position to raise the funds required to fully operationalise the Act.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Ngoma (Sinda): Mr Speaker, considering the fact that this Bill was enacted some time back and the hon. Minister is saying that the guidelines and the issues in that Act are not implemented to date, is he comfortably saying that that law is null and void?

Mr Pande: Mr Speaker, that law can only come into effect after providing an enabling provision by gazetting. Since this has not been done, for the reasons that the hon. Deputy Minister has said, it is not effective as it is. It cannot be effective without that provision.

As a ministry, we are concerned that this was passed some years back and has not been implemented because it is intended to enhance the operations of the Forestry Department. We have realised that this is an important Act and that is why we have decided to take it for consultations with the stakeholders to see what will be the way forward. These consultations have been set for September and October this year. And after these consultations, what will come out is to ensure that we go forward so that the Forestry Department can operate effectively and in a manner that we would like to see our forestry protected.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Scott: Mr Speaker, earlier today, in response to another question, we were informed that the timber licensing had earned K7.9 billion in six years. I make K1.3 billion a year for a price of one small executive house in Lusaka each year. And this is supposed to be the value of our timber estate as annual generation. The problem really is that the hon. Minister sees that the problem is to construct a new Forestry Commission and hold workshops, but it is very obvious that the absolute basics of collecting revenue with which to fix our schools and potholes are not being attended to.

Mr Pande: Mr Speaker, I take that as a contribution. It was not a question, really. He was debating, just contributing. What I could add on is that what has been collected or what is being collected is not what our forestry is worth. That is why we want to come up with a mechanism that will give proper realisation of the cost and importance of the forestry.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kanyanyamina (Kanchibiya): Mr Speaker, earlier in the House, we were told that we get some revenue from the trees and the hon. Minister also alluded to the fact that they are sensitising people for tree planting. What has gone wrong with our Government not to sensitise people and give a deadline for early bush fire controls? We do not need colonial masters to come for this. When are you going to announce the date to start fire burning and send boxes of matches to the provincial headquarters to start the fire to control the trees?

Mr Pande: Mr Speaker, sensitisation which was mentioned earlier on is one of the processes. Even in Kanchibiya that process will be there because we have to sensitise this year. Members of Parliament can even start on their own. They do not need to wait for the Government. Once you realise that there is a problem, do not wait. Start on it and see how you can address it.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chimumbwa: Quality!
_______

HOUSE IN COMMITTEE

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the 
Chair]

THE PENAL CODE (Amendment) BILL, 2007

Clauses 1 and 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 3 – (Amendment of section 328)

The Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda): Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 3, on page 3, in line 30 by the deletion of the words “imprisonment for life”.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.
Clause 3, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 4 – (Repeal and replacement of section 335)

Mr Kunda: Mr Chairman, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 4, on page 4

(a) in line 6
by the deletion of the word “wilfully” after the word “who”
and the substitution therefor of the word “wilfully”; and
 
(b) in line 36
by the deletion of the words “suffer death” after the word “to”
and the substitution therefor of the words “imprisonment for life”.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 4, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 5 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 6 – (Insertion of new Division)

Mr Kunda: Mr Chairman, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 6

(a) on page 7, in line 31

by the deletion of the words “suffer death” after the word “to” and the substitution therefor of the words “imprisonment for life”.

(b) on page 8

(i) in line 4
by the deletion of the words “suffer death” after 
the word “to” and the substitution therefor of the 
words “imprisonment for life”;
   
(ii) in lines 21 to 23
by the renumbering of subparagraphs (iii) and (iv)
as (i) and (ii), respectively;

(iii) in line 24
by the deletion of the words “suffer death” after
the word “to” and the substitution therefor of the 
words “imprisonment for life”.

 (c) on page 9
   (i) in line 2
by the deletion of the words “suffer death” after 
the word “to” and the substitution therefor of the 
words “imprisonment for life”;

(ii) in line 12
by the deletion of the words “suffer death” after
the word “to” and the substitution therefor of the
words “imprisonment for life”;

(iii) in lines 27 to 28
by the deletion of the words “suffer death” after
the word “to” and the substitution therefor of the 
words “imprisonment for life”;

(iv) in line 32 to 35
by the renumbering of subparagraphs (ii) and (iii)
as (i) and (ii), respectively;

(v) in line 36
by the deletion of the words “suffer death” after
the word “to” and the substitution therefor of the 
words “imprisonment for life”;

(c) on page 10
(i) in line 1 to 3
by the renumbering of subparagraphs (ix) and (iv)
as (i) and (ii), respectively;

(ii) in line 4
by the deletion of the words “suffer death” after
the word “to” and the substitution therefor of the 
words “imprisonment for life”;

(iii) in line 14
by the deletion of the words “suffer death” after
the word “to” and the substitution therefor of the 
words “imprisonment for life”;

(iv) in line 25
by the insertion of the word “to” before the word
“imprisonment”; and

(v) in line 30
by the insertion of the word “to” before the word 
“imprisonment”; and

(d) on page 11
(i) in lines 19 to 20 
by the deletion of the words “suffer death” after
the word “to” and the substitution therefor of the 
words “imprisonment for life”;

(ii) in lines 20 to 21
by the deletion of the words “Vandalism of 
navigation signs and signals on waterways” after
the word “death”.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 6, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Title agreed to.

THE APPROPRIATION (Amendment) BILL, 2007

Clause 1 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 2 – (Amendment of Schedule)

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Magande): Mr Chairman, I beg to move an amendment in the schedule, on page 3, in line 17, by the insertion of the word ‘Department’ immediately after the word ‘Waterways’.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly

Clause 2, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Title agreed to.

__________

HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

The following Bills were reported to the House as having passed through Committee with amendment:

The Penal Code (Amendment) Bill, 2007

The Appropriation (Amendment) Bill, 2007

Report Stages on Thursday, 9th August, 2007.

__________

MOTION

ADJOURNMENT

The Minister of Defence (Mr Mpombo): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

___________

The House adjourned at 1731 hours until 1430 hours on Thursday, 9th August, 2007.