DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE FIRST SESSION OF THE TENTH ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 22nd August, 2007

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

__________

RULING BY MR SPEAKER

POINT OF ORDER RAISED BY THE HON MEMBER FOR ROAN
(MR C. KAMBWILI, MP)

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, you will recall that, on Friday, 13th July, 2007, when the House was considering Question No. 470, by the hon. Member for Luena Parliamentary Constituency, Mr Charles Milupi, MP, the hon. Member for Roan Parliamentary Constituency, Mr Chishimba Kambwili, MP, raised the following point of order:

“Mr Speaker, I rise on a very serious constitutional point of order. This House is guided by the Constitution of Zambia, and the provision of Cap. 12, Section 16, as regards evidence to Parliament. It states and I quote:

‘Any person, who before the Assembly or any authorised committee intentionally gives a false answer to any question, material to subject of inquiry which may be put to him during the course of any examination, shall be guilty of an offence against Section 104, of the Penal Code.’

“Mr Speaker, I refer to yesterday’s debate, in which I raised a follow-up question on the Ministry of Local Government and Housing, and I quote:

‘I would like to find out from the Hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing when her ministry is going to release the K1.5 billion owed to the Luanshya Municipal Council.’

Mr Speaker, the Hon. Minister’s response was, and I quote:

‘The Government in the last two years has released all the resources owed to the Luanshya Municipal Council as a result of Roan Antelope Mining Corporation of Zambia (RAMCOZ).’

“She went on, further to say that she was not aware of any debt owed by the Government to the Luanshya Municipal Council.

“Mr Speaker, I have two letters with me, and with your permission, I would like to quote from a letter dated 20th December, 2006, signed by Hon Masebo and addressed to the Chairman, Secretary of the Zambia United Local Authorities Workers Union (ZULAWU), Luanshya Branch. She stated and I quote:

‘The Government has taken a new position on the issue through the Ministry of Finance and National Planning in which it has indicated to make a provision of a balance of Owners’ Rates as a result of RAMCOZ of K1.5 billion in this year’s Budget of 2007. Meanwhile, I advise that you wait until Parliament approves the draft budget.’

“Mr Speaker, I have also another letter written to the Permanent Secretary in the Ministry of Finance and National Planning by the Director of Local Government Administration, a Mrs Z. Zulu from the Ministry of Local Government and Housing, and I quote paragraph 2, which states:

‘We are also finding out when your ministry will release the balance of K1.5 billion in outstanding property rates owed by Roan Antelope Mining Corporation to the Luanshya Municipal Council (in receivership).

The same debt of K1.5 billion was provided for in the 2007 National Budget by your ministry as stated in Minute No. MFAL/102/12/8/6, dated 3rd November, 2006.’

“Mr Speaker, being a Councillor in the Luanshya Municipal Council, I am aware of the fact that the Government owes the Luanshya Municipal Council K1.5 billion. Is the hon. Minister in order to seriously contravene the provisions of Section 16 of Cap 12 of the Laws of Zambia by misleading this House with impunity that her Ministry does not owe the Luanshya Municipal Council any money?

“Mr Speaker, is she, therefore, in order to cast doubt on us, hon. Members of Parliament, with regard to all the answers given by hon. Ministers in this House. I pray for your serious ruling.”

In my immediate remarks, I said as follows:

“Arising from the point of order that has been raised by the Hon. Member for Roan, all which is required is to ascertain the facts. When the facts have been ascertained, the House will be informed.”

Hon. Members, in line with the Parliamentary Procedure and Practice, and in the interest of natural justice, the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly wrote to the Minister of Local Government and Housing, Hon S. T. Masebo, MP; to the Permanent Secretary (Budget and Economic Affairs), Ministry of Finance and National Planning; the Permanent Secretary, Ministry of Local Government and Housing; the Permanent Secretary, Ministry of Justice; and the Secretary, Zambia United Local Authorities Union, Luanshya Branch, to get information on the matter, and the following were their responses:

Response from the Minister of Local Government and Housing, Hon S. T. Masebo, MP

In her response, the Hon Minister stated as follows:

“As at December, 2004, RAMCOZ (in receivership) owed the Luanshya Municipal Council a balance of K3 billion in property rates. This debt was confirmed as valid by the Permanent Secretary, Ministry of Finance and National Planning, at a meeting I chaired at my ministry on 7th January, 2005. Others in attendance were Permanent Secretary, Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development, Permanent Secretary, Ministry of Local Government and Housing, RAMCOZ representative, Mayor of the Luanshya and the Town Clerk for Luanshya Municipal Council.

“The meeting agreed that the Ministry of Finance and National Planning should only pay the Luanshya Municipal Council K1.5 billion as full and final settlement of the debt and that my ministry would in turn inform the Council accordingly.

“As a result of the decision of the meeting of the 7th January, 2005, the Ministry of Finance and National Planning released to my ministry the K1.5 billion as full and final settlement of the RAMCOZ debt owed to the Luanshya Municipal Council, (see letters attached marked as Appendix 1). This money was forwarded to the Luanshya Municipal Council by my ministry as being the final payment. Therefore, when the supplementary question was asked by the hon. Member for Roan Constituency as to when the balance of K1.5 billion owed by my ministry to the Luanshya Municipal Council would be paid, I could only remember the facts of the above stated meeting which finalised this issue which I personally chaired on 7th January, 2005.

“The letters which the hon. Member of Parliament for Roan Constituency laid on the Table of the House to justify his point of order though correct cannot be used against me because at the time I responded, I did not remember that, in fact, my ministry or, indeed, the Government through our technocrats had decided to change the initial position on the matter as can be seen by the various correspondences between themselves after I had left the ministry between August, 2005 and October, 2007  ( see copies herewith attached).

“You will note from the various correspondences that there was, in fact, an attempt to deliberately confuse the position of the meeting of 7th January, 2005 so as to make it look like there was no decision taken, and yet it was agreed that the K1.5 billion paid would be the final settlement of the debt. So, if you ask me again today whether the Government owes the Luanshya Municipal Council? My response would still be that the Government does not owe the Luanshya Municipal Council because that decision, according to my understanding, was taken with me in the chair as then Minister of Local Government and Housing who was empowered under the Local Government Act to administer councils, including approving and amending council budgets on behalf of Central Government.

“The fact that my ministry later changed to support the payments of the balance which had earlier been agreed to be written off does not in itself mean that the Government owes, but simply that councils are agents of Central Government and the Government has an obligation to fund them whenever a need arises and when resources are available.

“As can be seen from the attached correspondences, it is clear that our decision was changed and since I was not fully involved in this process of change, it was not easy for me to remember this new position on the matter, but easily remember the decision of the meeting which agreed to a full and final payment of the debt. Even as I write this letter, I have no confirmation that this K1.5 billion has since been approved and factored in the 2007 budget as money owed to the Luanshya Municipal Council. Even if the money was to be paid, my understanding would be that it will be paid to help a council in need and not that the Government owes the Luanshya Municipal Council.

“In conclusion, I want to state that in my tenure as member of the Executive in Parliament, I have never misled the House let alone deliberately mislead the House with impunity as alleged by the hon. Member for Roan Constituency. I have served the House diligently with honour and integrity. It is most unfortunate, regrettable and sad that the hon. Member considers me as a Member who would want to deliberately mislead the House with impunity.”

Response from the Permanent Secretary, Ministry of Finance and National Planning

In his response to the letter from the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly, the Permanent Secretary, Budgeting and Economic Affairs, stated as follows and I quote:

“I am able to confirm that the Ministry of Local Government and Housing does not owe the Luanshya Municipal Council K1.5 billion in respect of outstanding property rates. Nevertheless, in the light of prudence like in the past, the Government has settled obligations of RAMCOZ in respect of terminal benefits to the former employees of ZCCM. We have sought the opinion of the Attorney-General to establish liability of the Government Republic of Zambia (GRZ) if any. We took the prudent step of providing for the amount in the 2007 budget.”

Response from the Permanent Secretary, Ministry of Local Government and Housing

In his response to the letter from the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly, the Permanent Secretary, Ministry of Local Government and Housing stated as follows, and I quote:

“As at December, 2004, the Roan Antelope Mining Corporation of Zambia (in receivership) and not my ministry owed the Luanshya Municipal Council a balance of K3 billion in property rates. This figure was verified by a team of auditors from the Ministry of Finance and National Planning as indicated in the minute MFAL/102/12/8/6 dated 11th September, 2006 from the then Acting Permanent Secretary, Budget and Economic Affairs, in the ministry as per attached copy of the letter.

“At a meeting held at my ministry on 7th January, 2005, attended by senior Government officials from my ministry, the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, the Mayor and Town Clerk of the Luanshya Municipal Council, which was chaired by the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing, copy of the minutes of the meeting herewith attached, it was agreed that the Ministry of Finance and National Planning could pay the Luanshya Municipal Council K1.5 billion as full and final settlement of the debt and that my ministry would write to the Luanshya Municipal Council requesting them to write off the remaining K1.5 billion of the debt due. Unfortunately, the request was not implemented immediately and with the passage of time, the council wrote letters to the Ministry of Finance and National Planning and Secretary to the Cabinet on the matter requesting for payment of the outstanding K1.5 billion which should have been written off.

“As a reaction to the Luanshya Municipal Council’s requests for payment of the K1.5 billion which was supposed to have been written off, the then Acting Permanent Secretary (Budget and Economic Affairs) in the Ministry of Finance and National Planning sought clarification on the matter from my ministry in his minute MFA/102/12/8 dated 11th September, 2006.

“In response, my ministry in minute MLGH /102/42/28 dated 6th October, 2006 to the Ministry of Finance and National Planning advised that the balance of K1.5 billion in respect of the unwritten off outstanding property rates owed to the Luanshya Municipal Council by RAMCOZ (in receivership) be provided for in the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, 2007 Budget.  This decision was made after careful analysis of the financial difficulties which the Luanshya Municipal Council was facing following the failure by the Roan Antelope Mining Corporation of Zambia (in receivership) former owner of Roan Mine in Luanshya to meet debt obligations to their creditors, including payment of property rates to the municipality.  This situation created a problem for the municipality due to the reduced revenue base as property rates are the major source of revenue for the council after the sale of council houses.  The change in my ministry’s position on the matter of writing off the K1.5 billion was taken because of the nation’s current improving economic situation as well as Luanshya Municipal Council’s worsening economic status which resulted in the council’s failure to be current in terms of payments of salaries and provision of services to the residents.

“Arising from the above situation, the Municipality could not pay salaries and wages to workers and could not provide the much needed services to the residents of Luanshya.  In this regard my ministry therefore, supported the Ministry of Finance and National Planning’s efforts to pay the unwritten off K1.5 billion in property rates to the Luanshya Municipal Council and that provision be made in the 2007 Budget by the Ministry of Finance and National Planning for that purpose as a separate expenditure item under that Ministry and not mine as explained above.”

 Response from the Permanent Secretary, Ministry of Justice

In her response to the letter from the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly, the Permanent Secretary, Ministry of Justice, stated as follows:

“I wish to confirm that the Attorney General opined on this matter on 24th July, 2007 and a copy of his opinion is enclosed herein for your information.”

In his opinion to the Treasury Counsel, Ministry of Finance and National Planning, dated 24th July, 2007, the Attorney General stated as follows:

“I have examined the Agreement for the sale and purchase of certain assets of Roan Antelope Mining Corporation of Zambia (in receivership).

“There is a suggestion that the Government is obliged to settle all the outstanding claims by NAPSA, Mukuba Pension Trustees Ltd, Workers’ Compensation Fund and Luanshya Municipal Council.  This is premised on the interpretation placed on clause 3.3 of the Agreement.  You seek my opinion on that understanding of clause 3.3.”

Having examined in detail that Clause and other provisions, the Attorney General advised:

“In my opinion, unless the Government wishes for any other consideration to assume the obligations of the Seller, there is no legal basis for the Government liability to settle the Employees claims and other claims as identified.

Kindly be guided accordingly.”

 Response from Mr K Zulu, Branch Secretary, Zambia United Local Authorities Workers Union (ZULAWU)

In his response to the letter from the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly, the Branch Secretary for ZULAWU stated as follows:

“Madam, we wish to confirm that we are in receipt of the letter from the Honourable Minister of Local Government and Housing Ref MLGH/103/42/28 dated 20th December, 2006.  This letter was a reply to our letter to her dated 1st December, 2006 (copy attached).

“Further we wish to state that the balance of K1.5 billion in respect of property rates owed to the Luanshya Municipal Council has to date NOT been paid.”

Hon Members, after studying the point of order raised by the Hon Member for Roan Parliamentary Constituency, Mr C. Kambwili, MP, the submissions by various Government officials, and the debates on the subject, the following are my findings:

1. Luanshya Municipal Council was owed property rates, amounting to K3 billion by the Roan Antelope Mining Corporation Zambia (in receivership) as at December, 2004.

2. At a meeting chaired by the Minister of Local Government and Housing, Hon S. T. Masebo, MP, on 7th January, 2005, the Government of the Republic of Zambia, through the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, resolved that the Luanshya Municipal Council should only be paid K1.5 billion as full and final settlement of the debt.

3. On 8th March, 2005, by Payment Authorisation No. 35/2005, the Ministry of Finance and National Planning transferred into the Ministry of Local Government and Housing Account No. 0013723000183 at the Bank of Zambia the amount of K1.5 billion for onward transmission to the Luanshya Municipal Council.  This is according to the letter by Mrs P. N. Mwangala, Permanent Secretary, (Budget and Economic Affairs), Ministry of Finance and National Planning – MFAL/102/1/29, dated 15th March, 2005, and the response by the Permanent Secretary, Ministry of Local Government and Housing, dated 24th July, 2007, aforementioned.

4. The decision to write-off the debt and consider that the Luanshya Municipal Council be paid K1.5 billion as full and final settlement of the debt was allegedly not sanctioned by the full Council.  This is in accordance with the letter dated 11th September, 2006, from the Acting Permanent Secretary (Budget and Economic Affairs), Ministry of Finance and National Planning to the Permanent Secretary, Ministry of Local Government and Housing, which position is also confirmed by the letter from the Permanent Secretary, Ministry of Local Government and Housing aforementioned.

5. As a consequence of failure to have the function of the full Council, the Luanshya Municipal Council decided not to honour the decision, which cancelled part of the money RAMCOZ owed it, and, instead, demanded its full payment from the Ministry of Finance and National Planning.

6. The Ministry of Finance and National Planning upon receipt of various letters of demand from the Luanshya Municipal Council, consulted the Ministry of Local Government and Housing on whether the K1.5 billion should be provided for in the 2007 National Budget. This is in accordance with the letter from the Acting Permanent Secretary (Budget and Economic Affairs), Ministry of Finance and National Planning, to the Permanent Secretary, Ministry of Local Government and Housing, dated 11th September, 2006, and confirmed by the response from the Ministry of Local Government and Housing to the letter from the Clerk of the National Assembly.

7. Upon considering the financial constraints which were being faced by the Luanshya Municipal Council, the Ministry of Local Government and Housing advised the Minister of Finance and National Planning to provide for the K1.5 billion in the 2007 Budget for payment to the Luanshya Municipal Council. This was communicated through a letter dated 6th October, 2006, signed by the Permanent Secretary, Ministry of Local Government and Housing.

8. On 27th November, 2006, a meeting was held at the Ministry of Local Government and Housing Conference Room between the Minister of Local Government and Housing, Hon. Sylvia Masebo, MP, and officials from the ZULAWU Luanshya Branch to discuss the issue of the K1.5 billion. The hon. Minister advised ZULAWU of the intention of the Government, through the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, to make a provision for the balance of the owners’ rates of K1.5 billion in their 2007 National Budget for payment to the Luanshya Municipal Council in 2007.

This is confirmed by the letter dated 1st December, 2006 by the Secretary of ZULAWU to the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing, and the reply thereto by the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing, dated 20th December, 2006.

9. From the correspondence received, the K1.5 billion in respect of property rates owed to the Luanshya Municipal Council has not been paid as stated in the letter dated 19th July, 2007 by the Branch Secretary of ZULAWU, Luanshya, to the Clerk of the National Assembly. This position is confirmed by the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing, the Permanent Secretary, the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, and the Permanent Secretary, Ministry of Local Government and Housing, in their letters of response.

10. The opinion of the Attorney-General was sought on whether the Government Republic of Zambia (GRZ) had any liability to RAMCOZ debt. The Attorney-General advised that GRZ had no legal obligation to pay the RAMCOZ debt.

Hon. Members, from the information gathered, legally, the Government does not owe the Luanshya Municipal Council any money in unsettled property rates in respect of RAMCOZ (in receivership).

Accordingly, I conclude that the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing did not mislead the House when she informed the House that the Government did not owe the Luanshya Municipal Council any amounts in unsettled property rates.

In this regard, therefore, I am unable to establish a prima facie case against the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing for breach of Parliamentary privilege and contempt of the House. I, therefore, dismiss the Point of Order.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Let me add, here, that hon. Members must be very careful when they raise points of order in this House. They must first carry out their own research to establish in their minds whether or not, there is a prima facie case with regard to the point of order they intend to raise. As you can see, these points of order require detailed research and a great deal of time is consumed in the process. 
Only for the conclusion to say the point of order cannot be sustained.

I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

________{mospagebreak}

MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

PROGRESS AND STATUS OF ENHANCING BUDGET EXECUTION

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Magande): Mr Speaker, I wish to thank you for giving me this opportunity to update hon. Members and the nation at large on the progress and status of the Programme of Enhancing Budget Execution.

Mr Speaker, during the 2007 Budget Speech, earlier this year, I had indicated that our effort this year would be focused on supervising the implementation of budget execution. We promised the nation to involve hon. Members of Parliament and other stakeholders in the monitoring and evaluation of budgeted programmes. We also called for changing the mindset towards a collective ownership of public resources development programmes.

Mr Speaker, the background to all this is that there have been concerns by the general public and, indeed, the Government on the lack of impact of the budget. One of the reasons is that of lack of information, especially on funds that are released to the various programmes, projects and activities carried out in the provinces and ultimately in the constituencies.

Mr Speaker, we are all aware that His Excellency, the President, Mr Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC, kept his part of the pact by writing a letter to each one of the hon. Members of this august House on their involvement in project implementation.

May I emphasise the fact that without information, it is difficult to monitor activities. As a way of providing user-friendly information, I am glad to report to this august House that the Government has designed a Budget Status Report, which presents the budget by physical location. The report aims to disaggregate the national budget by province.

The intention is to show the programmes, projects and activities carried out by the provincial administration, the ministries and departments in each province.

Further, the report indicates amounts of funds released to each programme, project and activity between January and end of June, this year.

Mr Speaker, the Budget Status Report has been compiled on a provincial basis for all the nine provinces. In future, the Government intends to produce such reports on a quarterly basis for use by the members of the public and the hon. Members of this House.

Furthermore, the future intention of the Government is to present the National Budget Estimates and Execution Status by physical allocation down to the district and constituency levels.

Mr Speaker, I hope, therefore, that all the hon. Members have by now collected their reports which have already been distributed and show the information per province.

Mr Speaker, after the launch of the Fifth National Development Plan and the Vision 2030, the Government has proceeded with the production of citizen friendly planning documents. For the first time in the history of the country, these important planning documents have been reproduced in the following languages: Chibemba, Chinyanja, Chitonga, Kikaonde, Silozi, Lubale and Lunda. In addition, the documents have been transcribed in Braille for use by the blind.

I take this opportunity to, once again, thank the patriotic Zambians who transcribed the documents for a job well-done. Our dissemination launch of the vernacular versions of these documents was graced by three Members of Parliament, Hon. Mboshe, Hon. Mangani and Hon. Matongo, to whom I extend my sincere thanks.

Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the hon. Members that my ministry has embarked on a                                               dissemination exercise of the FNDP. As part of this process, monitoring and evaluation instruments will be given to all ministries, provinces and other spending agencies. Teams of officers will visit all the districts in the country. The first phase of such visits will commence on 20th August, 2007 in the Northern, North-Western, Luapula and Eastern Provinces.

The second phase will cover the Eastern, Southern, Central and Copperbelt provinces. The third and last phase will be in the Lusaka Province.

Mr Speaker, with all this user-friendly information on the Government’s development efforts, the Government expects the citizens to fully participate in the implementation of the various programmes meant to uplift their standards of living.

I, therefore, wish to prod my hon. colleagues to be proactive in the monitoring and evaluation of the programmes as part of their oversight role, so that the Budget can start to show a major difference in its impact on the lives of the majority of citizens.

Sir, as part of the working Executive arm of the Government, I am proud to note that this session of Parliament has been very productive as it passed some landmark laws. I hope that we will all use the recess to disseminate these important pieces of legislation so that they become useful tools to our constituents. It is now my pleasure to wish each hon. Member a peaceful and productive recess.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members may now ask questions on points of clarification.

Mr Mooya (Moomba): Mr Speaker, legally, any project is between client and contractor and no outsider. I would like to know if the involvement of hon. Members will have any legal backing.

Mr Magande: Mr Speaker, yes, legally that is the position, but, we must realise that there are structures of the Government which are also legally binding. The hon. Members of this House are members of district councils. One would have expected, therefore, that Hon. Mooya was going to use his position as councillor and elected Member of Parliament in his area to make sure that, at least, the projects using public resources that are implemented in his constituency, where he is a legal representative of the people, are done correctly. The public we are talking about is the Government and Parliament who approved the Budget. The estimates we approved here belong to Hon. Mooya and he must safeguard the money that we release from the Ministry of Finance and National Planning.

I thank you, Mr Speaker. 

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Speaker, the funds we are talking about, like the hon. Minister said, are public funds. One of the first things Hon. Magande did upon becoming Minister of Finance and National Planning was to start publishing the Budget Status and Releases Report in the print media which he did for only three months and gave up on it.

I would like to find out from him whether, now that he has started producing reports for Members of Parliament, he has given up completely the noble idea of providing information to the owners of the money, the real tax payers, through such reports in the print media?

Mr Magande: Mr Speaker, I would like to thank Hon. Lubinda for that question. No, we have not given up. We intend to resume publication of the information on a monthly basis in the public media so that the people can know what money is leaving the Treasury.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Milupi (Luena): Mr Speaker, in terms of enhancing Budget execution as promised by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, one of the major cries of the Ministry of Works and Supply and contractors is that of delayed funding of projects.

Would the hon. Minister, therefore, inform this House when he will come up with an effective Treasury management plan that will closely match the release of funding from the Treasury to meet payments to project contractors for certified completed work to stop the Government from losing vast sums of money through penalties and interest payments and a loss of opportunity through delayed project completion dates.

Mr Magande: Mr Speaker, again, a very important question from the hon. Member for Luena. We hope to get to that situation once we have paid off all the arrears that we owe the various contractors. It is only after that can we be sure that any money that we release to a contractor is not going to be charged against outstanding debt, but against current work.

However, we also expect that the spending ministries are going to be judicious enough to realise that in spite of their intentions and needs, we have limited resources and therefore, on a yearly basis, we should budget for projects that can only be accommodated within the estimates of revenue for that particular year. It is a very difficult aspect of managing the Government Budget, but we think that we are getting through, as some of the ministries do understand that you cannot implement all the projects, for example, even for this year in one month.

I take the example of the Ministry of Works and Supply which has a budget of over K700 billion this year. For my colleague on my right side (Minister of Works and Supply, Mr Simbao) to expect me to find K700 billion and release it to him in three months would simply mean that the rest of the Government is going to be denied resources.

Once the Budget is approved, we ask the ministries to provide their spending schedules to us. We also ask them to indicate when they would like us to release money for their programmes. Of course, some of them believe that we can release all the money they need in one month. I think some of them realise that we have to stagger the expenditure because revenue is collected on a monthly basis and on the basis of what we collect, we fund the programmes. Therefore, it is an ongoing exercise, just like what the hon. Member said on Treasury management. I hope very soon, we will get to a situation where we feel comfortable that we are actually doing the work according to the expectations of the people.

I thank you, Sir.

Major Chizhyuka (Namwala): Mr Speaker, I would like to go back to the earlier question which was raised by the hon. Member of Parliament for Luena. I would like to find out whether there is a problem with the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning and this Government in accessing external finance to work on our roads. What is the value of Citizens’ Friendly Planning Documents if at the end of the day, it is going to take us forty-nine years to tar the Mutanda/Chavuma Road and seventeen years to tar the Choma/Namwala Road? I am asking this question because some of these roads are leading to areas which are clearly economically viable and can provide the necessary resources needed for the development of this country.

Mr Magande: Mr Speaker, thank you for a very important question raised by the Chairman of the indigenous Zambians.

Laughter

Mr Magande: Yes, there is a problem in getting money from outsiders for us to do what we want. The outsiders have money because they developed their economies by being judicious with their resources. That is how they have surpluses to give to other countries. I cannot go all over the world with a begging bowl, appearing as if they are ones who owe me anything. That is not the intention of the Government and that is where the problem is.

Sir, we must decide and know what development we want. If the hon. Member for Namwala wants us to work on the Chavuma/Mutanda and Choma/Namwala roads in the same year, the budget will not accommodate the two. What we must do is that for the Chavuma/Mutanda Road, which is perhaps some 600 kilometres long and requires about K400 billion, we should agree that any budget money for roads next year will only be used on this road so that it is completed in the same year.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Magande: By so doing, we must agree that the Choma/Namwala Road will have to wait and will not be worked on in that year. Once we spend all the K400 billion on this 600 kilometre road, the following year, we will decide that since the budget line will still be K400 billion, we will use K80 billion required on the Choma/Namwala Road and we will complete it that year. In the meantime, Hon. Syakalima should wait for his Bottom Road, which will be worked on in 2010. Thereafter, we can go to the Eastern Province and work on the Eastern Province Road in 2011.

Sir, you will find that in forty-nine years, we would have completed forty-nine roads and these roads will all be in Zambia. All of us, as Zambians, will be happy. If you want us to repair forty-nine roads in one year, we will only be scratching them because we will only manage to rehabilitate two kilometres of the Chavuma/Mutanda Road and it will take us thirty years to complete about 600 kilometres which is still less than forty-nine years.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Mwansa (Chifunabuli): Mr Speaker, since we are going back to our constituencies, when is the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning going to release the Constituency Development Fund?

Laughter

Mr Magande: Mr Speaker, I did not expect that question and I do not have an answer immediately.

Interruptions

Mr Magande: We had promised that the money would be released before this House rises. I am told by the Leader of Government Business in the House that we might rise by 04.00 a.m. tomorrow …

Laughter

Mr Magande: … and I will try and see if by that time, we would have released the money.

Laughter

Mr Magande: Mr Speaker, otherwise, we are working hard to make sure that the hon. Members find the money in their constituencies as soon as they arrive. Let me also say that we already have some money in the constituencies. Some of the constituencies had the Constituency Development Fund for last year and all of the constituencies have Youth Funds for this year and last year. We just hope that when they arrive, while they are waiting for the K200 million Constituency Development Fund for this year, they can start using the money that has already arrived for projects for the youths as well as for communities.

I thank you, Sir.

______

QUESTIONS

STANDBY SKILLED PERSONNEL AND PURCHASE OF HELICOPTER FOR THE DISASTER MANAGEMENT AND MITIGATION UNIT

862. Mr Malama (Mfuwe) asked the Vice-President:

(a) whether the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit had standby skilled personnel such as doctors, pilots, fire fighters and divers to combat any disaster in the country; and

(b) when helicopters would be purchased for the unit.

The Vice-President (Mr R. Banda): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the House that, indeed, arrangements are in place to call upon these skilled personnel when the need arises within the context of the National Integrated Disaster Management Structure, since sub- committees of this structure have the skilled personnel referred to above.

Sir, the House may further wish to know that, in the Government’s continued effort to strengthen and institutionalise these arrangements as part of the implementation of the Disaster Management Operations Manual of 2005, efforts are underway to identify specific doctors, pilots, firefighters, divers and all other personnel with specialised skills with the view to signing a Memorandum of Understanding with them or their institutions in order to have these personnel readily available on standby.

Mr Speaker, with respect to the second part of the question, the House may wish to know that arrangements to procure two types of helicopters, a larger version for haulage of relief supplies and smaller version for search and rescue as well as aerial assessment for the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit are in a very advanced stage.

Sir, in fact, the matter has been presented to the Plant and Vehicle Establishment Committee of the Cabinet Office. The committee has since directed the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit to prepare a technical paper to facilitate its decision. The helicopters will, therefore, be purchased as soon as the principal decision is made and resources mobilised.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Malama: Mr Speaker, I still want to find out from His Honour the Vice-President the measures that have been put in place in case of a disaster. I would like to find out why there have been delays in attending to the people affected. For example, the people of Mfuwe received relief food very late. Instead of receiving the food in December, they received it in March. I would like to find out if at all the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit has put in place some logistics to ensure that the affected people receive the food on time.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, as I have indicated in my reply, we are working on that. The cost of this whole operation is about US$60 million, and I am sure that hon. Members understand that this kind of money is not easy to come by. Therefore, we have to work together with the other ministries in order to find these resources.

As I stated, a committee has been set up and we are working very hard to see that we find these resources as soon as possible.

However, if it so happens that there is a disaster today, we would try and mobilise these resources from the various ministries. In case of doctors, we would go to the Ministry of Health, in case of divers, we would find private divers who are available in the country and in the case of vehicles, we would go to the Ministry of Works and Supply.

We have had other disasters before and we have mobilised resources, perhaps, not satisfactorily, but we have done this before. With regard to why it has taken so long to attend to the affected people, as you know, this information must originate from the districts, and onward to the provinces and up to the Office of the Vice-President which is responsible for mobilising resources. I have had private discussions with the hon. Member of Parliament (Mr Malama) and he came up with some very bright and useful ideas which we intend to take into account.

In case you are curious, one of those ideas was that we should deliver the food to areas such as Mfuwe during the dry season because we always anticipate that there will be problems in an area such as his. I took that into account and have passed it on to your people to see if what you suggested can be done. We do actually benefit from ideas coming from yourselves, the constituencies, the districts, right up to the line ministries and finally, to the Office of the Vice-President in charge of disaster management.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Speaker, arising from the answer given by His Honour the Vice-President, having mentioned that there is a bureaucracy in the way relief food is given to the various places, I would like to find out what measures have been put in place to ensure that the response time is reduced.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I am sure when the hon. Member will be in my position one of these days, in other words when he will be in the Government, he will realise that public funds have to be allocated through a bureaucracy. There is no other way to do this other than to follow the procedures that are place. However, each year, we learn what problems arise and how we should solve them.

In this particular case, this year, the area has been affected very badly by floods and drought. We have learnt a lot of lessons and I am sure that from these lessons, you will see that the delivery from now onwards will be a little more efficient and faster than has been the case in the past.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

PROGRESS MADE IN THE APPOINMENT OF THE UNIVERSITY OF ZAMBIA VICE-CHANCELLOR

863. Mr Sejani (Mapatizya) asked the Minister of Education what progress had been made in the appointment of the University of Zambia Vice-Chancellor.

The Deputy Minister of Education (Ms Changwe): Mr Speaker, the post of Vice-Chancellor at the University of Zambia has been filled and is already in office. Professor Stephen Simukanga has been appointed Vice-Chancellor at the University of Zambia for a period of four years with effect from 1st July, 2007.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

____

BILLS

FIRST READING

THE TOURISM AND HOSPITALITY BILL, 2007

The Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources (Mr Pande): Mr Speaker, I beg to present a Bill entitled the Tourism and Hospitality Bill, 2007, whose object is:

(a) to provide for the development of the tourism industry through tourism planning, management and co-ordination;

(b) to provide for the functions and powers of the Director of Tourism;

(c) to provide for incentives for investors in the tourism industry;

(d) to provide for the control and regulation of hotels and the enforcement of reasonable standards of cleanliness, sanitation and service;

(e) to provide for the authorisation and licencing of tourism enterprises;

(f) to provide for granting of casino licences;

(g) to provide for the constitution of the Hotel Managers Registration Council;

(h) to provide for the establishment and administration of the Tourism Development Fund;

(i) to repeal the Tourism Act, 1979, the Hotels Act,1987 and the Casinos Act, 1992; and

(j) to provide for matters connected with or incidental to the foregoing.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

Mr Speaker: The Bill stands referred to the Committee on Energy, Environment and Tourism. The Committee is required to submit its report to the House when they complete their deliberations.

THE ZAMBIA TOURISM BOARD BILL, 2007

Mr Pande: Mr Speaker, I beg to present a Bill entitled the Zambia Tourism Board Bill, 2007 whose object is:

(a) to provide for the establishment of  the Zambia Tourism Board and define its functions;

(b) to provide for the promotion and marketing of Zambia as a tourist destination within and outside Zambia; and

(c) to provide for matters connected with or incidental to the foregoing.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

Mr Speaker: The Bill stands referred to the Committee on Energy, Environment and Tourism. The Committee is required to submit its report on the Bill to the House when they complete their deliberations.

I should have said before, but I say this now, that any hon. Members who wish to make amendments or suggestion on the two Bills, will be free to do so during the course of the Committee deliberations.

______

MOTION

SUSPENSION OF STANDING ORDERS

The Vice-President (Mr R. Banda): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that Standing Orders 20 and 21 (1), if necessary and Standing order 101 be suspended to enable the House complete all business on the Order Paper and all matters arising therefrom and that, on such completion, the House do adjourn sine die.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the House has diligently accomplished all the business that was brought before it. It is therefore, appropriate that the current meeting of the House which commenced on Tuesday, 10th July, 2007, should come to an end today to enable hon. Members attend to other equally challenging national assignments and explain to the electorate some of the important decisions and pieces of legislation which the House has passed.

Mr Speaker, as of today, the House has been sitting for a total of twenty-six days. During this period, four hundred and seventy-two Questions for Oral Answer and twelve Questions for Written Answer were considered by the House. In addition, sixteen Government Bills and three Private Members’ Bills were presented and considered by the House. The House also considered two Private Members’ Motions and two Motions to adopt the reports of Select Committees. Furthermore, a total of twelve Ministerial Statements clarifying Government policies were delivered and fifty reports were laid on the Table of the House. This was certainly a busy meeting. In this regard, Sir, allow me to congratulate the House on a job well done.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice President: Mr Speaker, during this meeting, hon. Members worked tirelessly in making hon. Cabinet Ministers and their Deputies account for their responsibilities in the management of public affairs and in the prudent use of national resources. Furthermore, the press has actively highlighted the work of Parliamentary Committees and other oversight mechanisms whose statistics I have outlined above. In doing this, hon. Members have helped to enhance efficiency and strengthen the institutions of governance as well as promoting our policy of zero tolerance to corruption.

Mr Speaker, my office has taken note of the various concerns raised by the hon. Members during this meeting. On our part as a Government, we shall carefully study the concerns which hon. Members have raised so that appropriate remedial measures are taken where necessary.

Mr Speaker, in addition to the structural reforms the nation has experienced, the Government has developed interventions which target the poor and facilitate poverty reduction. The New Deal Government understands the issues relating to poverty in this country and the measures to address its multidimensional challenges.

Sir, it is against this background that I move this Motion to allow hon. Members go back to their constituencies and spearhead the preparations for the planting season. Let us use the period of recess to encourage our people to extend their fields so that more food is produced next year to achieve greater productivity and prosperity. This is a challenge for hon. Members and I am confident that they will succeed in this endeavour.

Mr Speaker, allow me to put on record the fact that the House is taking a break at a time when, as a country, we have just successfully hosted the 27th SADC Ordinary Summit of Heads of State and Governments and that Zambia, under the leadership of His Excellency the President, Mr Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC, has been bestowed with the Chairmanship of this important regional grouping.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: As a nation, we should support the current Government initiatives in the promotion of regional integration in the SADC Region. The just ended SADC Ordinary Summit of Heads of State and Governments has no doubt raised Zambia’s profile and put the country back at the centre stage of regional matters.

Sir, I now wish to take this opportunity to thank you, Mr Speaker, the Hon. Madam Deputy Speaker, and the hon. Deputy Chairperson of Committees of the Whole House for the efficient and impartial manner in which you guided the business of the House.

The Vice-President: Hear, hear!

Laughter

The Vice-President: Allow me Sir, to also thank all the hon. Members of this august House for their constructive and invaluable contributions during the debates on the Motions, Bills, Committee reports, Ministerial Statements and Questions for Oral Answer presented during this meeting of the House. I also wish to commend the Clerk of the National Assembly and her staff for the excellent services that they rendered to this House.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

The Vice-President: Let me equally take this opportunity to express my gratitude to hon. Cabinet Ministers and hon. Deputy Minister for the support and assistance they have continued to render to my office. May I also express my appreciation to my officers in the Office of the Vice-President and other Government ministries for the assistance they have rendered to me during this period.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo (Bangweulu): Mr Speaker, I would like to thank you very much for according me this opportunity to first of all say my kind words to His Honour the Vice-President for having demonstrated to us that he is a leader who can be approached any time. He has always presented himself as a very humble person. In fact, you cannot even see the distinction between us and him, which is very commendable and we would like him to keep this spirit up.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mtonga: Zoona!

Mr Kasongo: Sir, we have known quite a good number of previous leaders of this institution representing Government Business who had at one time or another presented themselves as knowledgeable enough to understand our views.

Laughter

 Mr Kasongo: Some of them were quite arrogant, but His Honour the Vice-President has been so humble, supportive and accommodative. Please continue demonstrating the same kind of leadership that you have demonstrated to all of us.

Mr Mtonga: Zoona!

Mr Kasongo: Sir, I would like to remind His Honour the Vice-President that some time back we received a letter addressed to all hon. Members of Parliament which was written and signed by the Secretary to the Cabinet, in which all of us were officially informed that when funds were released to our respective constituencies, we would be informed officially. This assurance has not been translated into action. We would like you to follow up this issue. For example, if the letter was written accidentally without the support of the whole Cabinet, let us know so that it can be withdrawn officially.

Otherwise, we are aware that we have been taken on board by the Government of the day. We will be informed officially about all the funds that will be released for the projects that will take place in our respective constituencies. However, from the time we received the same letter, we have not been told whether the funds have been released by the Ministry of Finance and National Planning. Please, follow up that issue, otherwise, it is embarrassing on the part of the Government to make a commitment that cannot be honoured.

Secondly, His Honour the Vice-President made reference to the successes that have been recorded by the just ended summit for the regional grouping, but I would like to say that there is one weakness which came to surface. All of us were certain that the gender policy would be adopted so that women are seen to be equal to all of us. We have always said it in this House that our women must be seen as partners in development and we were so positive that this policy was going to be endorsed by our Heads of State. Unfortunately, we have now been informed that the document will be endorsed somewhere else. This is an embarrassing on the part of the Government of the day because preparations were made sufficiently by our women folk who would like to see that we narrow the gap between the men and women.

In fact, history has demonstrated that our women can even do better than men …

Hon. Female Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Kasongo: … given an opportunity to demonstrate to us that they have the ability and potential.

Therefore, I would like to appeal to you to whisper to the Head of State that when the Heads of State travel to Mozambique, they endorse this document as quickly as possible so that the gap between men and women is bridged once and for all.

Thirdly, I am a very disappointed person, because in spite of our calls to invite the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to release the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) during this period, nothing has been done. We have just been getting assurances.

Interruptions

Mr Kasongo: We would like to urge the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to ensure that the funds are released to our respective constituencies as quickly as possible. This is the only time we can undertake projects. What is the problem?

We endorsed the document that was presented by the hon. Minister in this House and we are hoping that the money that is supposed to go to our respective constituencies will be released as quickly as possible.

I would like to appeal to you, His Honour the Vice-President, through the Chair, to, please, put pressure on the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning so that the funds can be released as quickly as possible. That is our survival. You know that our people are waiting for the same money to be released. The first question our people are going to ask us is, “When is CDF going to be released?” We are going back empty-handed and this is shameful on the part of the Government. Please, take action as quickly as possible.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo): Mr Speaker, in supporting the Motion moved by His Honour the Vice-President, I wish to say that it is time we adjourned because even we, hon. Members, get fatigued with the various demands of the House.

As His Honour the Vice-President has indicated, we have been able to go through various Bills. Actually, this is also one time that most committees have been very busy. This is one session where, at the time we adjourned in the first sitting, in March, that all committees were busy. Moreover, the fact that we had a sitting in November last year, the sittings of the committees came a little earlier than usual. Hence, there has been a lot of work being demanded of the hon. Members of Parliament. As a result, a number of Members have not been able to visit their constituencies since January. It is time they had an opportunity to go back to their constituencies, although I have seen a number of demands from various committees.

Mr Speaker, I wish to congratulate His Excellency the President on his election as Chairperson of the Southern African Development Community (SADC). However, I wish to implore the Government that the event that took place was a national one and required projecting a national character. We all supported it and really wanted to participate in it, but there was only one little thing that was a bit dicey. If I remember very well, even the time that we had a One-Party State, we had the National Dance Troupe performing at such functions. Since our President is now Chairperson of SADC, the only dances we saw were from the MMD Choir.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Did we not have choirs from other political parties? I want to state that since the MMD is in government, and hosting such an event like this one, it required everyone in the country to work together and have a national character. It does not mean that it was supposed to be turned into a partisan issue.

Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Only the MMD Choir was singing. Surely, we, from the Opposition Parties, were going to sing as well. So, in this regard, we need to do better than that.

Mr Hachipuka: MMD girls were singing!

Mr Muntanga: We would have loved to see Opposition Parties like the Patriotic Front sing there. We would have also loved to see the UPND ladies singing for their President during this event so that the national character is upheld.

In this session alone, the Vice-President, although I was not here, was able to go along with the Members of the Opposition to the Umutomboko Ceremony in Luapula. He picked one or two Members from UPND and PF. He was beginning to show a national character as Vice-President of the Republic of Zambia. So, why did we fail when we were called to perform on a much bigger scale like SADC?

So, I would like to urge this Government, if they are going to have an opportunity to host such an important event again, not to make it a partisan issue at all.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: We are all aware that next year we shall host the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association (CPA) Africa Region Conference here in Zambia. I know that the CPA will be hosted in Livingstone and I hope that it will not be partisan because Parliamentarians will be there. Since it will be held in the Southern Province, we are not going to have dancers from the UPND though there are many of them in the Southern Province.

Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Instead, we would want the National Dance Troupe to be there …

Major Chizhyuka: And Lozis!

Mr Muntanga: … and Lozis or United Liberal Party (ULP) so that we do not have anyone left out. We want to uphold a national character.

Major Chizhyuka: ULP is Lozi!

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, I am glad that this Government has brought the National Constitutional Conference Bill. However, I want to appeal to you that such important Bills should not be pushed to the end or when we are about to adjourn because we get tired and might not debate as much. We would rather you bring them earlier so that you can hear the salient issues being debated. I am very positive that a number of Members of Parliament wanted to say something but, because of the time factor, you could not allow it to be debated for a longer period. After all, all Members of Parliament are paid for talking and sitting. So, if we do not talk on such an important issue, then why are we here?

Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: The learned Minister of Justice should not tactfully bring these important Bills at the end. I am beginning to think that it is his trend. Every time we are about to adjourn, he brings Bills that are sensitive.

Mr Speaker, I support the adjournment so that we can go back to do our jobs.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Imasiku (Liuwa): Mr Speaker, I thank you for allowing me to say something on this Motion. I also want to add my voice in congratulating His Honour the Vice-President on the manner he has managed the affairs of this House. I also wish to congratulate all hon. Members of this House on being in this House.

Mr Speaker, I would like to remind His Honour the Vice-President about one of the questions I have been asking him and this is in regard to the disasters and the hunger prevailing in some of the areas, especially in the Western Province.

Mr Speaker, His Honour the Vice-President has been very kind and has always answered this question nicely by giving us promises which we think are real. In his replies, His Honour the Vice-President has been saying that food is available, except that there is no money to procure this food. I would like to urge His Honour the Vice-President to keep on knocking on the doors where this money is locked up so that it can be released and the food is procured and sent to the constituencies where hunger is looming.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Imasiku: Mr Speaker, as you know, Liuwa Constituency is water logged and as such, the Western Province is really in problems. Now, going back to our constituencies without a proper answer on this issue will just put us in  bigger problems. So, Sir, I am requesting His Honour the Vice-President …

Mr Sichilima: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Sichilima: Mr Speaker, I do not wish to interrupt the contribution to the debate on this important Motion, but I need your very serious ruling on this matter. You just warned us about misinforming the nation. Is the hon. Member who is contributing to the debate so well in order to mislead this nation that there is hunger in the Western Province when, just yesterday, His Royal Highness the Litunga of Western Province, the most respected chief, said he had produced sixty tonnes of rice in a bid to educate the people of Western Province and this means that there could be a lot of food? Is he in order to mislead this nation?

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order! The hon. Member for Liuwa may continue.

Mr Imasiku: Mr Speaker, I was just concluding my contribution to the debate when the hon. Deputy Minister rose on that point of order.

Mr Speaker, the hunger in some parts of the Western Province is real. Rice is just grown in some areas and we cannot live on rice. In the African culture, when you are eating rice, you are not eating food.

Laughter

Mr Imasiku: Mr Speaker, in some places, we do not even have enough rice to feed ourselves. I just wanted to remind His Honour the Vice-President that people in the Western Province are starving and that he should knock on the doors of those people with the money so that food can be bought.

Mr Speaker, I support this Motion to adjourn the House sine die.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka (Namwala): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to support His Honour the Vice-President in his Motion to adjourn the House sine die.

Mr Speaker, I want to echo the words of Hon. Kasongo who indicated the humble posture that His Honour the Vice-President has adopted in carrying himself in this House. I would like to state that I am a practical example in realising that position by His Honour the Vice-President. I was, as you know, one of those appointed to accompany him to the Umutomboko Ceremony and, in those three days, I was able to understand the intricacy that forms and that make up His Honour the Vice President, and the humbleness that you are talking about which, I think, is what it ought to be. I, therefore, support the Motion to adjourn.

Mr Speaker, my tour to the Luapula Province, which is one of the very few provinces that I had not been to in my working career in my previous pre-occupations, gave me an understanding that the poverty in this country is widespread. The entire country has this poverty screaming in our faces.

Mr Speaker, I am mindful of the desire of the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning that, through the trickle-down formula, this country is going to develop. As we go on recess, I ask this Government and the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning in particular, to understand that the trickle-down formula will take us a century to develop this country. We are in a hurry and so we wish to ask this Government to search for a formula which will not last thirty-six years, long after we are all dead, thinking that after thirty-six years we shall have tarred the Mutanda/Chavuma Road.

Mr Speaker, let us look for a formula as you plan. We should have a formula that will drive this country into development or to kick start the development agenda of this country. Those possibilities are there. This House has given instructions to this Government to renegotiate the mining agreements from which, when we sit down on our side to make calculations, it is easy to raise K3.6 trillion in the National Budget so that those roads are worked on tomorrow and not in thirty six years, long after you are dead, hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning. We are looking for a development agenda …

Mr Magande: On a point of order, Sir.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Magande: Mr Speaker, I need your serious ruling. I am listening very attentively to the hon. Member’s contribution to the debate in which he said the trickle-down effect will take thirty-six years. Is he in order to imagine that now, because I am very quiet and listening attentively, I am thinking of going to Chingwere Cemetery? Is he in order?

Laughter

Mr Speaker: The hon. Member for Namwala should note that the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning has no plans to die within thirty-six years. That is not on his programme.

Will the hon. Member for Namwala, please, continue.

Laughter

Major Chizhyuka: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning is my elder brother and so I always chide him in one way or the other. In this country we have a bank called Barclays Bank which has initiated a programme of house ownership in which Zambians can acquire a house which ordinarily, from savings, they could acquire only after thirty-six years.

Mr Speaker, in other words, that bank is creating an environment in which the torturous effect of having no accommodation is dealt with while payments are made. I would like to urge this Government, as we adjourn, to start planning for the funding of the roads so that we do not wait for thirty-six years.

This is an issue which I think must be addressed, Your Honour the Vice-President. As we go on recess we must find external funds for the roads so that as we come back, you are able to report that you have found the many trillions which will be needed to kick start this economy.

Mr Speaker, I think of the people of Namwala who elected me overwhelmingly. I come from an area where we contribute more than 50 per cent of the maize in the Southern Province. This is an area that contributes more than 70 per cent of the beef which is consumed in this country by the indigenous people. I am talking about an area which has 250 kilometres of river, and therefore, producing the most of the testiest fish. I am talking about an area which produces most of the cotton. I am talking about an area which is exporting timber from the Ila Forest Reserve.

Surely, an area which is as economically viable as this one cannot wait for thirty-six years for a tar marked road. If we have a Government that is listening, a Government that plans and a Government that has the economic posture of its people, as we adjourn today, this is the issue that I lay before the Government to start thinking of raising the economic levels. How can we kick start the development of our country, given a country which has copper, palladium, nickel, uranium, steel, gold and emeralds? It has all the minerals of the world, and yet we still want to go the trickle-down formula.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwansa (Chifunabuli): Mr Speaker, in concurring with His Honour the Vice-President’s call for adjournment, I wish to, also, add to what the hon. Member for Namwala has said.

Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, this is a country of plenty and when we talk of poverty, we must simply point at ourselves as the ones to blame for failure to make the country rich and put in place mechanisms required to ensure that the riches of our country remain within our country.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwansa: We have ourselves to blame when forty-nine or almost fifty years after independence, we still have children not going to school …

Mr Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from1615 hours until 1630 hours.

Mr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, before business was suspended, I was saying that almost a century down the line since independence, we have only ourselves to blame for the failure to develop the country. We cannot continue passing the buck after so long. We cannot continue blaming others for our own failure to plan for the development of our country.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, history has taught this country that politicians have a tendency of passing the buck when it comes to development. The first problem we had was the struggle for independence. When we won our independence and there were wars in the neighbouring countries, we blamed the failure to develop our country on assisting our neighbours.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwansa: That became the watchword, not that there was anything wrong in assisting them, but you cannot assist at the expense of killing your own family. That shows that we were not planning properly. We should have left some money for the development of our country even as we helped our brothers and sisters in countries that were not yet independent.

Sir, fifty years down the line, we cannot fail to construct a ring road around our country. Fifty years down the line, we cannot still have certain areas inaccessible to traffic. Fifty years down the line, we still cannot travel from Livingstone directly into Chipata and we cannot drive directly from Mongu into Solwezi. Fifty years down the line? Someone is not doing his or her work.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwansa: Let us face the facts. We are talking about money as the reason for our failure to develop, I beg to differ. This country has a lot of money. We were just being told in the papers today that we are losing over $7 billion from emeralds alone in this country. It is almost one year now since we had an undertaking from the MMD Government to renegotiate mining concessions so that we can get money therefrom. The question that begs an answer is, what is the problem? What has happened? Why the silence? Why are we failing to tell those who are running the mines to give us a little more from the money they are making in our country? Do we have to beg them, really? They have made their money and recovered all the money they spent in reviving that infrastructure.

Mr Tetamashimba: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Tetamashimba: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member of Parliament for Chifunabuli who is speaking is one of the old Members although at one time he had left Parliament. The Motion that is before us is very clear. Is he in order to start scrounging for issues to debate that are not part of the Motion? The question which the hon. Vice-President has put before this House is to suspend the Standing Orders so that we can finish the business on the Order Paper, and if we do not suspend the relevant Standing Orders, we shall adjourn at the usual time which is shortly before 2000 hours. Is he in order to bring in issues that are not relevant to the Suspension of the Standing Orders? I need your serious ruling, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order! The hon. Deputy Minister of Works and Supply has raised a valid point of order, on which I have guided this House many times before, but each time this Motion comes up, hon. Members deliberately ignore my guidance and launch into cross country debate. There has been no exception to this rule.

Hon. Member for Chifunabuli and others, do you support the Motion to adjourn the House sine die after we finish business on the Order Paper? That is all I want to hear.

You may continue.

Mr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, I support the Motion and I have no problem. His Honour the Vice-President said that we should go home and explain what we discussed to the people. That is the issue at hand. We are going back home to tell the people what this House has done. We are saying that this House needs to do more for the poor out there. I cannot continue going back home to explain an impossible situation.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwansa: I cannot go home to explain that we are still fighting to get money from those we have given our wealth. I am being asked to do too much when the Government is seated and not negotiating a concession. That is the issue. I am going home and I support the Motion to adjourn.

However, as we go home, I would like to leave something for the Government of this country to think about, something that they ought to be working on in order to develop and make this country better.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwansa: We cannot continue giving excuses. Even as we go home, we have to excuse the Government for their failure to negotiate concessions. That is the problem that I have. Therefore, I would like to inform the Government that we cannot continue, fifty years down the line, to tell people the same story they have heard before.

Mr Speaker, there is no honour in poverty. We cannot expect our people to live honourable lives or be resilient in what they are doing when there is nothing in their tummies. This is our worry. We still have to sustain our people. For instance, we give them some fertiliser this year, and if they talk to us nicely, then we give them a little more next year. It should not be like this because this is their wealth. The Government must know how to distribute this wealth so that we quickly come out of this malaise. Fifty years down the line and we are still the poorest in the world. Surely, for a country so endowed with resources, this is an insult to our intelligence.

We need to ask ourselves what is wrong. The problem is that we are listening too much to the world outside instead of listening to ourselves and the cry of our poor people so that we begin to direct our resources to issues that matter. If we do not create employment, we will never get our people out of poverty. If we do not educate our people, they will forever remain poor.

Sir, that is the concern. I would like to advise His Honour the Vice-President that as we go, this should be the last time we are going without a major issue from the Government. We need to go back and tell the people that our Government has put this and that in place. However, what I have heard just whittles me down and makes me ask, ‘what is the future for my country.’

Mr Speaker, there is no country that can develop without a road network. There is no country that can depend on social development without creation of employment for development. We need to plan. I have read the Fifth National Development Plan, and I am happy with it, but it lacks a major component. For me, the component is simply to see the target. What do we intend to achieve in the next ten years or before thirty years?

However, everything ends by 2030, but which are the benchmarks? What are the things we will be looking at as beacons towards the development that we are targeting in thirty years’ time? I would like to know so that I tell my people back home that your Government has said that within thirty years, this is what is going to happen, but before these thirty years, please, expect the following, and after ten years, this is what is going to happen. This is critical to national development. We cannot go on like this.

Mr Speaker, before I am accused of going every which way, I just would like to inform His Honour the Vice-President that this time, when his Government is in power, the buck stops on them. The failure to develop this country will not be blamed on anyone else who has gone before them. It is now their responsibility. Even the New Deal is running towards ten years in power. Therefore, we cannot continue saying that the problems of Dr Chiluba are the reasons for the failure to develop. Those are the tactics they have used before.

Mr Speaker, all I am saying is that, the MMD Government should take and use their time because this is the only time the people of Zambia has given them to develop this country. If they fail, the failure must be theirs. They should not blame it on anyone else.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I thank you for allowing me, once again, to say a few words in response to the very wonderful things that hon. Members have said about both our Government and I with regard to the manner in which we have worked together during this Session of Parliament.

I would like, with your permission, to make quick reference to one of the two specific issues and then wind up so that I do not run the risk of not listening to your rulings.

Mr Speaker, specifically, on the issue of the Southern Africa Development Communities (SADC), it is true that it was expected that at this Summit, the issue of gender would have been resolved by having one resolution acceptable to all the countries of the SADC Region. Unfortunately, there were amendments which were not acceptable to everybody. It was then agreed that each country would go back and consult, and at a later date, agree on the best way to take. I do not know the specifics since the agenda has not come out, but I know that it was agreed that these matters should be discussed further to amend the protocol on gender.

Mr Speaker, on the question of the promise by the Secretary to Cabinet regarding the Constituency Development Fund, CDF, I understood the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning said this will be released as quickly as possible. In fact, he said that it may be released while on our way to our constituencies.

Mr Speaker, this Government is very sympathetic to what all hon. Members are raising regarding the needs of their constituencies. Therefore, we should expect these funds, perhaps, to have already been released as we go home.

Hon. Muntanga, Member of Parliament for Kalomo, agreed that we are tired and exhausted after a long session of twenty-six days of hard work. He further said that in the future, all that we do must reflect a national character. I hope that everybody heard Hon. Muntanga’s call. It is my wish that this is how we, the Zambians, should be viewed from outside. This last conference would have been delightful if all of us had the same expression of happiness to see our visitors without, in any way, spoiling the good atmosphere.

We all have heard that it was not quite possible to have all the dance troops from various political parties. I, personally, would have loved to see all political parties present provide entertainment for our visitors. However, there were problems in the country, but I am happy that despite that, we have been able to hold a successful conference and the people from outside have gone back convinced that we are a united nation.

Hon. MMD Member: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, reference was made to the National Constitutional Conference Bill that it has come so late and has not given the opportunity to hon. Members to debate. Unfortunately, we have to provide this leadership to debate now and pass the Bill because we are getting mixed feelings. We have been told out there that we are dragging our feet. We are not interested in having this Bill go through Parliament quickly so that we can have a new Constitution. Our behaviour yesterday in this House proved the fact that the majority of us here want this Bill to be passed as quickly as possible so that we can get on with the business of enacting a new Constitution. I hope that hon. Members will agree that all we are doing is respond to the requirements of the majority of the Zambian people.

The hon. Member for Liuwa made reference to the disasters that have taken place in our country and the big problem of hunger which our people are facing all over the country. We have answered a number of questions during the last twenty-six days regarding this matter. As I have said, during those replies, the Government is certainly going to do something about this. The report is out. We know exactly which areas require food. Our negotiations with the line ministries responsible for providing this food are successful and we should be beginning shortly to supply this food while we are still on leave.

Mr Speaker, I travelled with the hon. Member for Namwala and the hon. Member for Luena to the Mutomboko Ceremony. I was very happy and proud to be a Zambian because contrary to what most people had expected, we were all one team. When it was time to sowela, meaning to give some money to those who were dancing, not only the Vice-President or his ministers got up, but also members from PF, UDA and MMD stood at the same time. We bowed to the Mwatakazembe.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: I can say that it is possible for us to demonstrate our unity in practical terms. As for him, I was very pleased to know him a little better on this trip and to know how compassionate he is because of some experiences that we went through together.

I would like also, Mr Speaker, very briefly to respond to the references made by the hon. Member for Chifunabuli that this poverty is very worrying. It is worrying to all of us. All of us are facing difficulties in our constituencies because our people are poor. I like what he said that we should not pass the buck. We are not going to do that, but I think it is important for all of us to realise that we cannot develop this country if we are pulling each other apart. The elections are over. Now is time for us to pool together in order to do these things which the people want done.

 I am sure that everybody was listening to what the hon. Member was saying that we need to do everything in our power to help develop our country. I do not want to re-open the debate, except to say that I have listened very carefully to what all hon. Members have said. Hon. Members, we have definitely learnt a lot from your remarks, especially at the end of this debate.

Mr Speaker, I thank you as usual for guiding us very well and making us the only body in this country able to take decisions on behalf of all the Zambian people in an orderly and fair manner. No other body in this country can claim that except this one under your leadership.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Question put and agreed to.

______

BILLS

SECOND READING

THE FISHERIES (Amendment) BILL, 2007

(Debate resumed)

Professor Phiri (Kapoche): Mr Speaker, Mr Speaker, thank you very much for according me this opportunity to complete my maiden speech.

Mr Speaker, I wish to take this opportunity to thank friends, relatives as well wishers both within and outside the country, including my colleagues from the MMD Namibia Branch …

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Phiri: … who supported me during the campaign materially and spiritually. Special thanks also go the former Member of Parliament for Kapoche, Mr Nicholas Banda …

Hon. MMD Members: … who played an outstanding role in the campaign on my behalf.

Mr Speaker, the Kapoche by-election was extensively covered by the media. To this end, thanks go to the media for the job well done. Equally important, I pay gratitude to the electoral officers, observers as well as security officers who did a commendable job to ensure that the elections were generally free and fair.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Phiri: Mr Speaker, there is a saying that goes, ‘behind every man’s success, is a woman’. Thanks, therefore, go to my wife, Rhoda, who supported me actively in the actual campaign.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Professor Phiri: Mr Speaker, I wish to thank all the candidates from the Opposition parties for putting up a spirited fight. It was, indeed, an indication that our democracy is gaining maturity in our Republic.

Finally, Mr Speaker, I wish to thank many hon. Members, especially my cousins from the north for giving me a thunderous welcome to this House. I forgive them for calling me unregistered names.

Laughter

Professor Phiri: Mr Speaker, may I now turn to the main theme of this presentation, namely, ‘Towards Sustainable Social Economic Development and Poverty Alleviation in the Kapoche Parliamentary Constituency: from a Personal Perspective’.

Mr Speaker, Kapoche is a rural constituency and it is one of the largest constituencies in the Eastern Province both in terms of area and population. It is located in Petauke District and share part of its borders with Mozambique and stretches from somewhere near Nyimba to Sinda. The soils are generally sandy to sandy loam. Unfortunately, much of the rich soils have progressively lost their natural fertility, mainly due to the current agricultural practices.

The rainfall has been relatively good in some years even though in recent years the pattern has become erratic with incidences of either drought or heavy rains, possibly due to the reported global warming. The environment itself has a fair share of deforestation mainly due to demand for wood used as fuel and timber and clearance for agricultural purposes.

Mr Speaker, the constituency is densely populated and is the home of mainly Chewa and Nsenga-speaking people under the traditional Chieftains Nyanje and Mwanjabantu. The people mainly earn their living from agricultural activities such as growing of maize, groundnuts, vegetables, cotton and sunflower. They also keep cattle, goats, pigs and chickens for both domestic consumption and sale.

Just like most rural constituencies in the Eastern Province, the infrastructure in Kapoche needs to be attended to, especially feeder roads, bridges. There also a need for  safe water supply, electricity or some other form of energy, as well as health and educational facilities whose infrastructure is either in bad shape or inadequate.

Sir, because of the prevailing negative factors that I have highlighted, as well as the HIV/AIDS epidemic, the overall quality of life for most people of Kapoche is generally poor. There are indications of the following:

(a) inadequate food security- this year, for instance, there will be a need for food relief;

(b) a large number of non-school going children and teenagers;

(c) numerous orphans mainly due to early deaths of their parents, largely as a result of HIV/AIDS;

(d) most women cover long distances in search of water and wood for fuel; and

(e) overall inadequate income to support everyday needs of most households.

Mr Speaker, due to the apparent widespread poverty in the Kapoche Parliamentary Constituency, people are seeking external assistance, especially in the following areas:

(a) food relief due to poor harvest this season, arising from heavy rains which destroyed much of the crops;

(b) grading of feeder roads and construction of bridges;

(c) provision of adequate health and educational facilities and personnel;

(d) provision of safe and clean water;

(e) establishment of more market points and efficient marketing system;

(f) provision of dip tanks for cattle; and

(g) continuation of the Fertiliser Support Programme.

Sir, let me now turn to some of the current responses which are intended to address some of the socio-economic problems experienced by the people of Kapoche Constituency.

To begin with, the God-fearing people of my constituency are actively involved in trying to break the vicious cycle of poverty through the formation of clubs and co-operatives, as well as commitment to hard work. In fact, from the 1960s to the early 1980s, Kapoche Constituency used to be a bread-basket for most urban-based Zambians along the line of rail. Even up to this day, if one visits Kapoche, he or she would witness extensive agricultural activities, a sign of a hard working community. Obviously, the current efforts of the people in the constituency are not yielding the necessary results to defeat poverty in their midst, hence their cry for assistance.

Mr Speaker, I am happy to acknowledge that the New Deal Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) administration has not only recognised the problems experienced in Kapoche and elsewhere in the country, but is also committed to addressing the same. In his speech during the opening of the First Session of the Tenth National Assembly, His Excellency, President Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC, said this, and I quote:

“In rural areas, we shall consolidate the gains we have achieved in agriculture by further expanding our interventions in marketing, extension services, animal disease control and livestock development. Infrastructure, especially feeder roads, has to be attended to. Other areas of focus will continue to be in the delivery of social services of health, education, water and sanitation.”

Mr Speaker, further evidence as regards to the commitment of this Government is well articulated both in the Vision 2030 and the Fifth National Development Plan. Developmental goals, for example, are intended to reduce hunger and poverty nation wide. The Fifth National Development Plan expenditure priorities are such that they include strengthening the relevant economic and social infrastructure, especially roads, schools, hospital as well as enhancing agriculture and rural development. Facilitation of opportunities for small and medium-scale enterprises and fighting the HIV/AIDS pandemic are part of the Fifth National Development Plan public spending priorities, a reflection of a caring Government.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Phiri: Mr Speaker, apart from the pledges and commitment towards poverty alleviation, the Government has already embarked on several programmes intended to address some of the problems facing the people of Kapoche. This includes the Fertiliser Support Programme. Programmes which have already started or are likely to commence soon include the following:

(a) grading of feeder roads;

(b) provision of safe and clean water;

(c) provision of electricity; and

(d) provision of education, health facilities and personnel in these sectors.

 I am confident that once most of the pledges become a reality, they will go a long way in addressing the socio-economic problems prevalent in Kapoche.

Mr Speaker, I now turn to my theme of this presentation namely ‘Towards Sustainable Socio-economic Development and Poverty Alleviation in the Kapoche Parliamentary Constituency: from a Personal Perspective.’

Laughter

Professor Phiri: Mr Speaker, It is obvious that the Government alone, even if most of the pledges were to be fulfilled, will not ensure sustainable socio-economic development. In the final analysis, it will be the people of Kapoche themselves who can guarantee sustainable development and poverty alleviation through the following:

(a) ensuring adequate supply of food at the household level; and

(b) ensuring adequate income for use by households.

Mr Speaker, if there is food security in the household as well as extra income to meet other needs, then that household is on its way to defeating poverty.

Let me now advance possible ways the Kapoche community can become food-secure while at the same time generate sufficient income intended to raise their quality of living.

Since Kapoche is a rural community, the main source of food security and income generation for the constituency lies in agriculture. This is why the New Deal administration has wisely placed great emphasis on agriculture. It is essential that our Government intends to accelerate service delivery for agriculture in rural areas. With regard to Kapoche Constituency, this is critical because the current agricultural practice, in my view, is not sustainable.

Mr Speaker, we are informed by our National Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit that sustainable development means, and I quote:

“Meeting the needs of the present without compromising the ability of the future generation to meet their own needs.”

The Vision 2030 document sums up the state of agriculture in rural areas as follows, and I quote:

“The performance of the agricultural sector in general has been hampered by the poor state of feeder roads, a lack of rural electrification, inadequate credit facilities, poor agricultural marketing systems and the fluctuation of rainfall. There has been a gradual deterioration of agricultural resource in some parts of the country due to overgrazing and over application of fertilisers.”

Mr Speaker, this seems to apply to Kapoche Constituency. Since the soils, for instance, are progressively losing their fertility and trees are disappearing at a rapid rate, this obviously means that the current agricultural practices are compromising the ability of future generations to meeting their own needs. In fact, most farmers in Kapoche Constituency are not even able to meet their present needs due to difficulties in securing adequate fertilisers and other inputs necessary for use in relatively poor soils. The same farmers, some decades ago, were able to produce enough to meet all their needs while, at the same time, soils devoid of chemical fertiliser were implicitly preserved for future generations through appropriate agricultural management.

Mr Speaker, there are substantial piles of bags full of maize close to the Zambia/Mozambique border. This maize was not necessarily produced in Zambia, but mainly bought from Mozambique close to the border itself. Meanwhile, on the Zambian side, we are busy arranging for relief food because of the apparent acute food shortage.

What has happened then?

Mr Muntanga: The Government!

Professor Phiri: Mr Speaker, in my view, the effects of over application of chemical fertilisers, even on what were once natural fertile soils, have progressively reduced their natural fertility. These soils will only provide a better yield if more chemical fertilisers are applied to them. In the absence of chemical fertilisers, especially for hybrid seed, there is a sure guarantee of food insecurity.

Mr Speaker, much of the current agricultural practices being undertaken in Kapoche are not sustainable possibly because of the following:

(a) most of the farmers depend on chemical fertiliser, most of it being subsidised by the Government. Unfortunately, there is no guarantee that this, or any other government worldwide for that matter, could perpetually supply its farmers with subsidised fertilisers and other inputs;

(b) there is no guarantee that in the event that the Fertiliser Support Programme came to an end or scaled down, many farmers would be in a position to meet their fertiliser needs from their own resources;

(c) there is no guarantee that soils which are rapidly losing their natural fertility would support agricultural activities of the current and future generations; and

(d) there is no guarantee that timber and wood would be available for future generations if deforestation continues, partly as a result of the current agricultural practices.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Phiri: Mr Speaker, it goes without saying that since the current agricultural system does not appear to be sustainable to the current and future generations, something must be done urgently. One possible solution would be the re-enforcement of a dual system of agricultural practice for each farmer as follows:

(a) in the interim, subject to the availability of resources, the current Government’s Fertiliser Support Initiative could be accelerated for a defined period of time. This could be restricted to one portion of one’s plot or farm. The rationale behind this would be to strengthen the capacities of households in the areas of food security and income generation within a specific defined period. This could be similar to the Marshall Plan. This plan was a massive United States of America aid package for Western Europe worth some US$13 billion. The plan was put forward by General George Marshall soon after the Second World War. The main aim was to restore the economic infrastructure destroyed during the Second World War. Apparently, the plan produced satisfactory results;

(b) Mr Speaker, secondly, agricultural practices could emerge from the indigenous or traditional forms of agricultural practices and seed as well as livestock. Through research, much of it is already available in our institutions such as the University of Zambia, extension services and special incentives, the people of Kapoche Constituency could be encouraged to build upon agricultural management and practices undertaken by our grand parents which were largely based on organic manure, used local seed and minimised incidences of deforestation. In time, this form of agricultural management could become the mainstay of agricultural activity in Kapoche Constituency and, perhaps, elsewhere in the rural parts of Zambia. This agricultural practice could be undertaken on the other reserved portion of a plot or farm.

Mr Speaker, from my own perspective, this second form of agriculture is an example of sustainable development, which could guarantee food security and there is practical proof to this statement. For example, some thirty years ago, I read an article by a certain Professor by the name of Wadel. In his article, he argued that the future survival of human beings lay in going back to the roots with regard to the way people manage their environment. Currently, numerous reports indicate that human beings have not been managing their environment wisely, including the area of agriculture, hence the alleged global warming and other negative consequences the world appears to be experiencing.

Mr Speaker, just to reinforce the point advanced by Professor Wadel, in Kapoche Constituency, as stated earlier, there is a substantial quantity of maize purchased from Mozambique. Of interest is that the maize was largely produced without the use of chemical fertilisers while, on the Zambian side, food insecurity is being experienced possibly because of their dependence on chemical fertilisers. Thus, the dependence syndrome on chemical fertilisers as well as the use of certain varieties of hybrid seed do not appear to guarantee food security in the Kapoche Parliamentary Constituency.

However, although the majority of farmers in Kapoche mainly rely on large-scale application of chemical fertilisers and use of hybrid seed, this dual system of agricultural management could easily take off in a large measure if special effort is made since a few farmers in Kapoche are already practising it. These farmers tend to reserve a small portion of their land on which they plant local or indigenous seeds which are grown through the use of organic manure. Such a crop is usually for local consumption. The other portion uses fertilisers and hybrid seed whose crop is largely for sale. A few other farmers depend entirely on organic manure and local seed. Often, farmers who practise this dual system or depend entirely on organic manure tend to be food secure even in situations of poor rainfall. In any case, in Europe, preference for crops grown with organic manure is now on the increase.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Phiri: Who knows? Kapoche could be in a position to supply the same to Europe in the near future.

Mr Speaker, apart from introducing …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Only the Chair can interrupt a maiden speaker. I am afraid, we have been betrayed by our timer, which has failed. However, I assess that you have overrun your twenty minutes. So, I am sorry to interrupt you.

Dr Scott (Lusaka Central): Mr Speaker, I had to follow such a promising intervention, but I should be brief. This Act builds upon, copies or resembles other Acts; The Community Based Natural Resource Development Act, including the Wildlife Act and the Forestry Act which have encountered a number of problems which I think the hon. Minister should be aware of and he should be able to bring, possibly, amendments given that he has time to do so having heard debate unlike in some other cases I could mention.

The first thing is the question of the distribution of monies between the community or the community representatives and the Central Fisheries Development Fund. If the hon. Minister looks at page 10, Financial Provisions 5(g), he will find that the fund of the committee shall get such monies from the revenues payable in respect of fishing licences and so on and so forth, as the hon. Minister may, after consultation for finance by regulations prescribe. In other words, it is an open-ended provision which could actually be zero, whereas, on page 16, the Financial Provisions for the Fisheries Development Fund which is at the centre in Lusaka is set at 50 per cent of all that money that is raised from fishing.

So, it seems that his drafters have taken care to look after themselves and after the money at the centre, but have left the question of the money at the periphery open. This has been the defect of the ZAWA operations, for example, with the community-based resource boards and it will, no doubt, turn out to be a defect in the forests. So, I would implore the hon. Minister to bring an amendment to protect the communities to make sure they have an entitlement that is not simply the result of a ministerial Or Permanent Secretary’s whim.

I would also advise him or plead with him that we have game management areas, fishing areas and also forestry areas. For example, if you go to Kafue flats, you find there is lechwe hunting taking place in chief Shakumbila’s Game Management Area.  There is also, of course, cattle being reared, but there is also fishing being done. Also, some attention should be paid to the fact that you have different committees, authorities and boards for different kinds of animals. If the animal swims, it has a fisheries committee, if it runs it has a community resource board and if it just stands there, it has a joint forestry management board.

So, if the hon. Minister could think a bit about it, you have competition in a small area with a small amount of money between different committees trying to manage the same basic natural resources or natural resource base.

The last thing I would say is that I hope that this amendment Bill has really been brought to the attention and has been accepted and acknowledged by the hon. Minister responsible for Finance because in the case of the Wildlife Act which brought ZAWA into being, if my memory serves me correctly, it was three or four years before it was actually implemented because the resources were not there.

In the case of the Forestry Act, the Forestry Commission has not been created and we heard from the hon. Minister responsible for natural resources, just the other day, how much difficulty he was having finding the money necessary to convert it from a Civil Service department to a Forestry Commission.

 I hope that our hon. Minister, my friend or as the Minister of Local Government and Housing describes him, my former friend, has had the assurances necessary to actually implement his Act. Otherwise it is simply adding to the volume of paper that we generate in the business of governance

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Milupi (Luena): Mr Speaker, I will try to be as brief as possible. In his presentation, the Chairman of your Committee that looked at this Bill listed a number of people that had been consulted. Unfortunately, this country has the propensity for consulting the wrong people. None of the people mentioned were people residing in rural areas.

Mr Speaker, fishing and fisheries are important activities in rural areas and if this Bill is not properly handled, it will have an adverse impact on those that live in rural areas and depend on fish and fisheries.

Mr Speaker, fish is an important source of protein for many people who live in rural areas. In fact, in most cases, it is the only source of protein, and yet it is still the only source of relish. It is also an important source of revenue for people who have no jobs in the rural areas to enable them pay school fees or transportation to visit their relatives in towns and all over the place. It is a source of revenue for clothing and other types of food. When they raise money, they can then go and buy mealie meal. It is also a major source of commerce and trade.

Mr Speaker, we must remind ourselves that in rural areas, there are no jobs and people, therefore, depend on natural resources in order to have some form of revenue. I will speak specifically about the Western Province. However, even though I am speaking about the Western Province, the same applies to places like the Luapula Province and to certain parts of the Northern and Southern provinces, mainly Namwala, and so on, where fishing is an activity that is undertaken by many people.

Mr Speaker, first of all, in the Western Province, all sources of fish be they rivers, lakes, streams, lagoons and so on, are currently owned by people. They are owned by villages. They are owned by areas. It is not as if these places are there for the taking. They are owned by people. Therefore, when we talk about issuing licences to allow people to fish, who is going to issue these licences? For those that cannot afford the licences to have food to put in their stomachs and depend on fish, what are they going to do?

Let me remind our friends on the Government side that they are where they are because of the collective decisions of those men who reside in the rural areas.

Mr Speaker, if it was not for the action of those in the rural areas, those on your right, would today be on your left. Therefore, when they carry out certain decisions such as this, we expect that we will give serious thought to the impact of their decisions on those in the rural areas.

I said I was going to be brief. What is it that would be sufficient? What should they have confined themselves to?

The issues that we have raised on this Floor on fish and fisheries deal with the need to tighten rules and regulations on illegal fishing such as the use of mosquito nets, fishing nets known as kombakomba or small mesh fishing nets, explosives, poison in lakes and rivers and in some places drying of water to catch all the fish.

Sir, another major exercise that needed to be strengthened was the enforcement of the fishing ban. This will allow our indigenous fish to have time to reproduce so that it becomes sustainable. We needed measures to that effect to be brought to this House. This would facilitate greater use of fish farming for aquaculture. This aquaculture would have been used to grow indigenous species of fish so that they could, in turn, be reintroduced in our natural waters.

Mr Speaker, we also needed to have further restrictions such as licencing. This is going to squeeze the people who have no other sources, as the hon. Member for Lusaka Central has mentioned. This Bill goes the way of the Game Management Bill and the Forestry Bill. Fishing is the last resource without which people will have nothing else to depend on. If you restrict it by introducing licences and by bringing some of the measures that are here,, many people in rural areas will have no other source of food. I, therefore, urge this Government to look at this Bill again.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Mr Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to this important Bill now on the Floor of this House. To begin with, let me congratulate His Honour the Vice-President on the way he has managed the Business of the House. I agree with my two colleagues who have debated and referred to the Vice-President’s leadership as exemplary.

Dr Scott: When he is here!

Dr Machungwa: The only setback is that he does not want to answer too many questions.

Laughter

Dr Machungwa: Mr Speaker, I think he has done extremely well and I hope hon. Ministers could also acquire some of that humility when they deal with matters in the House. It will help them run issues efficiently. Hon. Mulongoti, you need to learn from that.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Machungwa: Mr Speaker, in supporting this Bill, I have to mention that there are some loopholes in the consultations that were done. I wish to agree with what my colleague, the hon. Member of Parliament for Luena mentioned. Which local, rural and riparian communities were consulted? The people in Luapula Constituency live on the islands. If you try to implement this law there, you are likely to run into a lot of problems. Fishing is mostly done in that area. I am not very sure how the hon. Minister will be able to do this.

Sir, Section 5 (a) says:

“the Minister may, after consultation with the Director of Fisheries and the Local Liberian Communities by Statutory Instrument, order or declare any area of fisheries to a Fisheries Management Area.”.

Sir, you have not even defined what you mean by a riparian community. Who are you going to consult? What worries me is that when you go on to Part II (a) and (b) of this Bill, the minister seems to give himself a lot of powers. It says:

“the minister may appoint a committee to be in a Fisheries Management Area.”.

Sir, I hope the hon. Minister is following what I am saying. In Sub-section 2, it says:

(a) six representatives from the local riparian fishing community which shall be elected by the local community;                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   

(b) one representative of the local authority in the Fisheries Management Area;

(c) one representative of the chief;

(d) one representative of a Non-Governmental Organisation operating in the fisheries management area;

(e) one representative from the Fishing Industry;

(f) one representative from the agriculture industry; and

(g) two other persons.

Mr Speaker, the proviso states:

“provided that the Minister may reject a nomination of any member and request a nominating institution or organisation to provide another nomination.”

Sir, basically, we are saying that if, for example, the chief sends a representative, the Minister can reject that person and request for another one. In the Bill, you have already stated that you have six representatives elected by the local community. Now, how are you going to reject these? What kind of democracy or decentralisation is this where all the power must rest in the Minister? Are we going back to the colonial days where the District Commissioners from the Boma had to decide who should sit there?

Sir, under Sub- section 3, it states:

“the Minister shall appoint the Chairperson and Vice-Chairperson from among the members appointed under Sub-section 2.”.

Sir, first of all, you are blocking the people from coming in and you want to choose who is going to be the Chairperson and Vice-Chairperson.

Under Sub-section 7, it states:

“the Minister may dissolve a committee constituted under that Sub-Section.”.

 Now, what is this desire to have absolute power? Are we not trying to get our local people in their own communities to participate and not run their affairs so that we only give the power to the Minister? Where are we going? For example, if the parents are in total control of their children, as the children grow up, they acquire more and more responsibility and make independent decisions. They are, of course, advised by the parents. When you want to retain everything in Lusaka and say that the Minister shall decide this and that, then we are not doing anything. You are likely to have a lot of problems because there is no real consultation with communities, and yet that is required. I know you have a Director of Fisheries, but I doubt whether he has been to the Bangweulu Swamps and whether he is familiar with all the problems there. 

Mr Speaker, we are suggesting that this issue must be looked at with further consultation because there is no way the hon. Minister is going to control everything. How do you go to my area and begin rejecting people when the villagers have accepted them? We said we are trying to be democratic, decentralise and allow local communities to participate in their affairs, but we are now going backwards. This is unacceptable.

Mr Speaker, in this Bill, we should not allow the sell of fishing nets that are below a certain size. I recall when I was young, they had some fishing nets of about 3, 4 and 5 inches.

However, these days, you get one-inch nets, and this is what is going to destroy our fisheries in the country. I would have wanted something like that in this Bill, but you are not concerned about that. Instead, you are concerned about giving yourself more power to decide and appoint, etc. It is not acceptable.

In any case, how are you going to deal with the situation where some of our lakes and rivers are shared with other countries? For example, we share Lake Mweru with the Democratic Republic of Congo, and you cannot give passport to fishermen to go on the other side. You cannot control the movement of fish. If you declare Lake Kariba a Fisheries Management Area, how are you going to effect such a law? These are some of the issues that are of concern. So, while I think a Bill like this is important, I am afraid, I would want to see more power and consultation go to the people.

Speaking for Luapula Constituency, it would have helped if you went there and saw for yourself what I am talking about. It would be very difficult for you to implement such a law. Do not expect me to speak on behalf of the Government in support of a law that I do not, in fact, support, because it is not very well considered.

 I wish, hon. Minister, that we could review this law. I know we are adjourning today, and the idea is that it goes through all the stages, but I would like to urge you, for the sake of the people in the fishing communities of this country, who depend on fishing, not to rush this Bill. This is an important Bill.

There is a notion that because we have the numbers, we go through with a Bill. That is not the way you are going to rule the country. If you do that, fine, but next time we will come to this House and repeal these Acts. I would like to urge you, instead of us going through and completing all the stages of this Bill tonight, we consult so that when it comes, we can support it. I can go and talk to the people of Luapula and say yes, I support the Act. Otherwise, when the Batwa people come with their spears and chase you, I will say I told you so.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muyanda (Sinazongwe): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me an opportunity to add my voice to that of the others who have debated this Bill which is on the Floor of this House. Coming from Lake Kariba, along the border with Zimbabwe, I would like to firstly, say that the hon. Minister of Fisheries and ...

Hon. Member: Dry fish.

Laughter

Mr Muyanda: … no, not dry fish, but hon. Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries, you have come with a Bill almost too late. Lake Kariba, at the moment, is suffering from depletion of fish stock. There is no more fish on the Zambian side because the lake has been over fished. There is virtually no management of the lake. We are now experiencing a Bill that will bring what I normally call organised confusion to order.

Mr Speaker, illegal fishing such as use of explosives and mosquito nets has been going on for some time. However, with Part V (a) of this Bill, the hon. Minister, after consultations with the Director and local riparian community may issue a Statutory Instrument to arrest the disorderly fishing which the fishermen have been doing. I am sure that the Bill is addressing a specific problem which is prevailing along Lake Kariba.

I am not guessing or dreaming. I come from an area where, prior to this Bill, we used to have what were called then, fish guards, who used to manage the lake. The fish guards knew precisely what type of fish was growing in the lake, and exactly how much fish was ready for the markets. However, today, some of our colleagues from Luapula, because they have depleted their stock, have come to Lake Kariba to use illegal methods of fishing.

Laughter

Mr Muyanda: Mr Speaker, this Bill addresses illegal activities, and prevents lawlessness. There is what is called Tumbula fishing method along Lake Kariba, where a fisherman, around 2 am, throws a semi-explosive rock into the water and all the fish run crazy. Tiny fish are caught, and because there is no law to arrest and control these illegal activities, what can a policeman do?

Our Chiefs have done their best to restrain these illegal fishermen. Men and women have camped on the coast of Lake Kariba for the sole purpose of destroying the organised fishing along Lake Kariba. This Bill addresses the problem that has been prevailing.

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Muyanda: When a Bill of this nature comes, where law and order will take place, what should we say? Should we say it is a bad Bill? No. A progressive Parliamentarian says, ‘Sir, we thank you for bringing this Bill before this august House’.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muyanda: Mr Speaker, my other point is that, with the use of the Statutory Instrument, by December this year, this instrument will create an opportunity for fish to breed.

Now, when a Bill is brought forward with a view to multiplying the production of fish, is it a bad Bill? It is not a bad Bill. The cage fishing that you are talking about is already working in Zimbabwe. It is only Zambia that is late.

Under this Bill, few people will be empowered to lay down some cages along deep lakes to catch and even produce deboned fish, which you know as tilapia. The deboned fish which you are seeing in the markets and other eating places is bred and groomed in the cage process system. With this Bill, Lake Kariba will have the capacity to have this done.

Hon. Muyanda, Member of Parliament for Sinazongwe says, Sir, we do not want to have a scenario where tiny fish is eaten because of using unethical methods to catch fish, no. This has never been the trend in Sinazongwe along Lake Kariba.

Sir, with these few words, I would like to urge the hon. Minister to persuade other hon. Members of Parliament to take keen interest in reading this Bill because it has been brought in good faith.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalumba (Chienge): Mr Speaker, I will be very brief.

Sir, the hon. Minister has come up with a Bill to deal with the problems that we have all been concerned with in this House.

Hon. Members may recall that I brought a motion on this Floor urging the Government to come up with strategies that will protect fishing stocks in Zambia. It is clear that in most parts of our water bodies, fish stocks are depleted.

Hon. Minister, I am at a loss because when we have a crisis with cattle disease, cattle die. Do we set up management boards as a response? There is something which is missing in this Bill. It is a good administrative Bill in a sense that it sets up a bureaucracy. Really, what I wanted to see is an increase in fisheries officers on the ground. That is what we need as a matter of urgency. We need police for the water bodies. This Management Board Committee will just be sitting down and get allowances.

Hon. Minister, I know you are very good at agriculture, but I am just trying to be closer to you on fisheries because I have a keen interest in it. I know that it will exercise your mind and you will see the need immediately. I have been very cautious because I am very passionate about it. I am looking at what you have called the Fisheries Development Fund. I do not want this fund to be used to fund bureaucracy. I want it to go to the people who will help protect fisheries stocks in the water bodies in Zambia, whether in Kariba, Luapula, Bangweulu or Lake Tanganyika. We need fisheries police officers. You have increased the number of Zambia Wildlife Authority (ZAWA) officers to help manage the parks. At the moment, without an increase in fisheries officers, you will have a problem. They will be no system for policing the banning period.

One hon. Member of Parliament was talking about bad fishing methods. I do not think these boards will do the job of stopping the bad fishing methods. It will need law enforcers to do that. You do not set up boards when there is crime, instead you increase the police posts in the communities to do the policing and the big police officers on the ground. That is how hon. Makwenyani is doing his job.

Laughter

Dr Kalumba: Mr Speaker, give us more fisheries officers, the kind that we knew in the past colonial days. They were weiring the fish and keeping guard of the size of the fishing nets. They would not allow two inch fishing nets to be applied on the large water bodies like Mweru. If you are telling me that you are going to restock our water bodies when you do not have fisheries officers, but instead, you have community management area or committees, my fear is that it will not work. It has not worked for the health service and education. Maybe, it might begin to work for market boards, but I am not sure about fisheries.

Sir, fish is not like other creatures because you have to know something about it. Fish is very special. You need people who know how to police fish. You also need boats on the lakes with some engines that run faster than the fisherman can run.

Laughter

Dr Kalumba: Sir, that is what you need. You need to police the water bodies.

Mr Milupi: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalumba: Hon. Minister, I know that you are a very hard working man. Therefore, I do not want to take too much time, but I am just urging you to go on a little further.

Sir, the Bill is a good start for administration for your officers at the Headquarters because they will be getting allowances, but I want you to pay particular attention to the little money that is needed in the areas where fish is produced and killed everyday by either using explosives or even poisonous stuff. Communities are involved there. You need some fisheries officer to arrest some people. That is the only way we can protect this. You already have a law. The Fisheries Act as it existed gave enough powers. You are just increasing the bureaucracy, but you already had the law.

Therefore, hon. Minister, I plead for communities that rely on fishing as they are getting extinct; they are endangered species. Our children cannot go to school because we cannot afford their schools fees since the fish stocks have reduced.

Sir, for a lake such as Mweru which we share with other countries and there is a river taking away stocks and never coming back, you need aggressive measures on the ground with technical people supporting you to secure the miracle that our colleagues in the Lake Nyasa have. The zeal that we show when talking about maize is what we need when we are talking about fish.

Mr Milupi: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalumba: I will even campaign for you.

 I thank you, Sir.

Laughter

Ms Imbwae (Lukulu West): Mr Speaker, in agreeing with all hon. Members that have spoken before me, especially the hon. Member of Parliament for Chiengi who has the heart for fish like I have,  I just want to say a few things.

Sir, looking at the two objectives, that is to provide for the development and regulation of aquaculture and the establishment of a Fisheries Development Fund, I just want to point out a few challenges for the hon. Minister as he looks at this Bill.

Mr Speaker, the majority of the people in the Western and Luapula provinces and many parts of this country depend on fishing, but fishing is particular to the Western and Luapula provinces. That is the reason others are saying that they notice people fishing on another lake and give them a base from where they think these people came when those people are looking for fish.

Mr Speaker, fish farming is important to manage as we have managed or tried to manage these other resources. While, we talk too much about roads and maize in terms of agriculture, I definitely want to put in my word for fish farming.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Imbwae: I therefore, hope that the Fisheries Development Fund that the hon. Minister is considering, is going to address the issues that I am going to list now.

Mr Speaker, the majority of people who are surrounded by water and, because I know certain specific places, I want to give a concrete example of Kaputa which is 50 per cent water and 50 per cent land, depend on fishing. They take to the waters just like the people in the Western Province take to their rivers. How will the hon. Minister manage to regulate more then 50 per cent of the people who are dependent on water when you have not provided for enough extension staff to manage the fisheries? Mr Minister, you have not given us enough extension officers to manage agriculture for conventional crops.

Mr Milupi: Hear, hear! Tell them!

Ms Imbwae: Therefore, you need to seriously look at this issue.

In 2002, Mr Speaker, Zambia won an award for wetland management at the Ramsar Convention on Wetlands. That certificate is currently sitting in the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources. How did we get it? It is because we were agitating management of our wetlands very well. What we did was to make sure that we placed a particular emphasis on the management of the Barotse, Kafue and Bangweulu plains. We worked not only with people from fisheries, environment or tourism, but also a number of stakeholders and the result of that was that we won a prize. I wonder whether we would get that prize today.

Mr Speaker, I am aware that there is Mofwe Lagoon which was dug by one of the Chiefs in Luapula who is also particular about water. That Mofwe Lagoon was dug from Kalungwishi to Lake Mweru Wantipa. That provided breeding ground for fish along the various lagoons on the way. Unfortunately, right now the waters uplands are not managed properly and the whole place is drying up. Is this Fund going to be used not only to manage the waters of this lagoon but also all our canals in the Western and Luapula provinces? So that we can see water flowing all the way to make sure that the fish is fed on fresh water.

The dangers we have are that currently, because we are not putting emphasis on managing the wetlands, certain people are using fertilisers without knowing that they have other side effects on our fish. I would not be surprised Mr Speaker, if some of the fish diseases are a result of the chemicals that are used without the capacity to manage the side effects.

Therefore, as the hon. Minister thinks of this Fund, can he divert it or address these issues that I am raising because it is important that we find ways of managing the wetlands.

Why am I emphasising on the wetlands? Mr Speaker, the wetlands provide a natural buffer for purification. That is why those of us who live around the dambos will notice that the soils in the dambos are actually dark. Why? They capture all the particles and when they dry up, they make the soil in our dambos rich.

I would like to challenge the hon. Minister to remember also that these dambos are potential areas for rice growing. Therefore, even as we talk about management of fisheries we must balance so that we consider agriculture as a whole sector and not only fish in isolation, but fish in relation to the ability of the waters to carry the fish and the lands around the waters so that there is organic farming taking place meaningfully as it used to be.

In most of these places like the Luapula and Western provinces, we used to grow crops twice in a year, but now we are not able to do that. What has gone wrong? We are missing out on the natural fertilisation that comes from our water bodies. We are actually also missing out on things that were coming from the ponds, meaning that the fertility that was coming from crops drying up and waters coming in, feeding our plankton. That is the little fish, so that they can become bigger fish as they grow. At this tender age, they would have been feeding on rich food. Now because most of the waters are drying up, we do not have proper breeding grounds for our fish.

Please, let us now manage these areas. As you think about this Bill, the provision of management or regulation will be a problem in the Western Province where we have certain ponds, which I will try to translate if I can. We used to have ponds and lakes referred to as misindi and milapo that have been passed on from generation to generation. How will you manage to regulate us when even the Ministry of Lands has failed to access our land? I think you need to think about that.

In conclusion, I just want to appeal to you, hon. Minister to use these funds to ensure that you manage our wetlands very well. This means that we should manage them in such a way that we are able to have comprehensive and meaningful agriculture that actually goes more into organic farming than fertilisers that will spoil our soil and fish. Further, give us the resources to manage where you can manage.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

The Deputy Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources (Ms Tembo): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the Fisheries (Amendment) Bill, 2007.

In supporting the proposed amendment, I would like to state the following in relation to environment and natural resources management.

The Bill is in line with the activities under the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources and is not in conflict with the Environmental Protection and Pollution Control Act, Cap 204, the Forests Act, Cap 199, the Zambia Wildlife Act and the National Heritage Conservation Act.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Tembo: Areas to be declared as fisheries management areas in certain protected areas will have to be managed in accordance with the relevant principal Acts.

In the context of pollution, anyone found polluting a water body in fisheries management areas, shall be punished under the Environmental Protection and Pollution Control Act.

The Fisheries (Amendment) Bill, 2007 will definitely go a long way in promoting the aquaculture sub-sector in the country knowing that quite a substantial number of our population depends on fishing activities for their livelihood.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Tembo: Mr Speaker, the objectives of the Fisheries (Amendment) Bill, 2007 in general are to:

(a) provide for the involvement of riparian communities in fisheries management;

(b) provide for the development and regulation of aquaculture; and

(c) establishing the Fisheries Development Fund.

The Bill also provides for environmental protection and pollution control in fisheries management. In this regard, I wish to call upon the Zambian population to desist from polluting water bodies so as to maintain a clean and conducive environment in the country.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Tembo: Polluting water bodies can definitely result in fatal fish diseases and eventually cause many health hazards to consumers.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Tembo: Mr Speaker, I urge the House at large to support the proposed amendment Bill.

I thank you, Sir.

The Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services (Mr Mulongoti): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me an opportunity to say something. Under normal circumstances, I would have chosen to listen because this is a very progressive Bill. Let me congratulate the Chairperson of the Committee on the wonderful job that the Committee have done.

Mr Speaker, what is important is to look at the object and the spirit of this Bill. At one point, I nearly fainted here when I heard the hon. Member for Luapula saying that when he was a child, he used to see nets of different sizes. I nearly fainted because this man grew up in Twapia.

Laughter

Mr Mulongoti: I do not know how he had an opportunity to have something to do with fishing in Twapia.

Mr Speaker, and also in debating he was trying to attack me …

Dr Machungwa: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Dr Machungwa: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister really in order to talk about the hon. Member for Luapula whose knowledge of the fisheries and fishing methods is impeccable and who, in spite of having grown up on the Copperbelt, frequently travelled to the Bangweulu wetlands and, therefore, is extremely familiar with all the fishing methods which he has not seen himself. Is he in order to debate in that manner?

Mr Speaker: The hon. Member for Luapula is displaying his fishing credentials before the hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services. As he debates, he should take those credentials into account.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Will the hon. Minister continue, please.

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, I am not questioning his knowledge on fishing, I was just correcting a historical fact that he grew up in Twapia and so  he could not have spent his childhood noticing fishing methods and what have you. It was not possible because I was with him and so I could have acquired the same skills as well.

Laughter

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, however, for me, hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives, this Bill is important. What we have witnessed in this country is that we have people from the urban areas, like the hon. Member there, claiming that they are very good at fishing. These are the ones who are going with mosquito nets to fish and destroy the same fibre and culture that we are talking about, that the hon. Minister is trying to stop.

Mr Speaker, all the hon. Minister is trying to do is prevent these urban fishermen and women going from using methods that are unacceptable and unless they are regulated, because of their insatiable appetite for money, they are going to deplete the rivers. I would have expected the hon. Member to thank the hon. Minister profusely for helping the people whom he claims he loves.

Mr Speaker, with the hon. Member spoke very passionately that she lives by the river when I always find her at Parliament Motel, …

Laughter

Mr Mulongoti: … I have difficulty accepting this.

Mr Speaker, the role of hon. Members is to help the community organise themselves so that they can manage the environment properly and so it is not for the hon. Minister to come and supervise the wetlands like you were saying and it is not for the hon. Minister to supervise the utilisation of the funds because it is their role and if they do not participate, no matter how good the law is, nothing will happen.

So in your passion, hon. Member, my appeal to you is that you should embrace the Bill and make it useful to your community.

Mr Speaker, I am grateful that the hon. Member saw value in this Bill. I would also like to commend the hon. Member for Sinazongwe (Mr Muyanda) who also spoke very passionately. That is the way it should be. We want those who come from those areas where fishing takes place to participate actively and also embrace laws that will help protect their environment. It is one thing to be against something because you feel that the methods you have been using are not very useful and another to see value in the regulations that are coming.

Mr Speaker, I come from an area where we have small rivers and we have our own methods of fishing, but I can give an example. I come from an area called Lufwanyama where we allowed people who came with muzzle loaders to kill animals and, today, we cannot find even a rabbit.

Laughter

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, I want to warn all of you who have this natural resource to embrace this Bill so that you maintain your natural resources and not end up like us. We are only left with the name Lufwanyama, but all the animals have been killed.

The hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives is being very good to all of us. Some of us eat a lot of fish so although we do not know how to catch the fish, but we are getting concerned in relation to the rearing of animals, chickens etc. There is no substantive effort in trying to protect fish from the people who have fish as their means of survival.

Mr Speaker, having said what I said against that hon. Member who is the only one who opposed the Bill, I would like to appeal to hon. Members to support this progressive Bill so that we can protect our fish and make fishing an industry that is worth respecting as opposed to leaving it to anybody who thinks they can fish to come along. So, hon. Member for Luapula, please, withdraw your remarks and support the hon. Minister.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikazwe (Chimbamilonga): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the debate on this Bill.

Mr Speaker, my concern is on part 2 (a) which is talking about fisheries management areas. I will specifically talk about Lake Tanganyika in Chimbamilonga Constituency. These areas have already been demarcated and taken over by the Zambia Wildlife Authority (ZAWA) and I am thankful that they are getting back the responsibility of keeping fish from ZAWA who are not knowledgeable in keeping fish, but just charging people unlawfully.

Mr Speaker, the areas have already been demarcated and if you go to the Nsumbu National Park, three quarters of Chimbamilonga, on Lake Tanganyika, has been taken over by the Government on behalf of ZAWA, but I can see that the hon. Minister is still thinking of extending the area. If you extend it further, where will your people live? Already, after the demarcation is done, we have seen that in game management areas, animals are not there, but the hon. Minister has not issued a Statutory Instrument to withdraw the boundaries …

Mr Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.

Mr Sikazwe: Mr Speaker, before business was suspended, I was trying to put emphasis on Part 2 (a), Section 2, where the hon. Minister may, in a like manner, define the water boundaries. Before, the Director used his jurisdiction to demarcate the fish management area, but now that the community is going to be participating fully, we look forward to the implementation of this Bill so that people are given powers, but not to bid for what the Government has put in place.

At times people have been given power, but they abuse it, like we are talking about today on the fishing methods. We used to have the machetes of the fishing nets, but we moved away. I am emphasising the power of the people to participate in management areas. At the same time, the hon. Minister, through the Director, must have powers again to surrender the management areas to the community. This has been a problem before, like in the National Parks, where we do not know how people are going to benefit from this because they have already been demarcated. Are they going to be repossessed and given to the people? The hon. Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources will say no, this is also a National Park. This is where there has been a conflict of understanding between Department of Fisheries and ZAWA. This must be defined. How they are going to operate?

Above all, the distances in waters, Mr Speaker, has been a problem, as to who is to own what. ZAWA has land which even covers part of the water and the Department of Fisheries also claims the fish which comes from there that it is their fish. At least, the people in these restricted areas are paying money to ZAWA as opposed to the Department of Fisheries which is the owner of the fish. This issue must be considered by the hon. Minister so that if they are given the powers through the management board, this fishing activity must be given to the Department of Fisheries then ZAWA must be get a small percentage of that money.

Mr Speaker, there are no licences at the moment for the local fishermen who are fishing, for example, at Chisansa Fishing Camp which is one of the restricted areas in the Nsumbu National Park. We are paying for the permits to ZAWA which is a loss to the Department of Fisheries. For the licences, the Department of Fisheries must harmonise this situation.

Mr Speaker, let me talk about the issue of funds. I remember sometime back in the late 1980s or early 1980s, there was what was called Agricultural Finance Company which was giving loans to the fishermen in the local communities. Then, as the area Member of Parliament for Luapula said, they were controlling the size for the gill nets and sine nets which contributed to the restocking of fish, but now it has been made open where the so-called mosquito nets and the like are used to abuse the fishing methods depleting layers of fish.

Mr Speaker, with these funds, we look forward to an improvement, in particular, in Nsumbu, Mpulungu, Lukanga, Mweru Wantipa, Kaputa District and Chiengi, because people there are accused of using mosquito nets. The Government does not give them funds. We want to replace the mosquito nets with proper nets. It will be very surprising if the funds will be allocated to the large fish ponds in Lusaka and Kitwe because those are under the Agricultural programme. They are adding to the Tilapia family as opposed to the Nile Perch, which is even a souvenir and part of a sporting activity. It is an ornamental fish. This thing must not be abused like I said about the collapse of Agricultural Finance Company. It was married together with the Agricultural Department, but the fishing industry benefited little everywhere.

Mr Speaker, these funds must reach the community. I raised a question two weeks ago, where I asked when the Government was going to subsidise the fishing industry. Today, the use of ring nets is costing a minimum of K30 million and it is just targeting a few people, but for me, a poor person, I will go for a mosquito net to catch small sardines. I am talking about Kapenta. The sardine family has been affected in the Lake Tanganyika.

Still on the issue of funds, Mr Speaker, I want to inform the hon. Minister that in the early 1970s, when we had to co-operatives, Sinazongwe and Mpulungu had training institutes for fishermen. They were calling fishermen from the communities to be trained in Mpulungu and Sinazongwe and that is on record. Again, it was meant to be done in Nchelenge to cater for Luapula. What I am saying is that these funds must not just be left to would-be briefcase fishermen. We want these funds to reach the real fishermen who are relying on fishing for their livelihood.

Mr V. Mwale: Fyafula boyi!

Mr Sikazwe: Mr Speaker, I went to school using resources realised from fishing. Let me talk about fish. Today, people have started running away and are encroaching on the national parks as I mentioned because that is the only option.

The other point is that the fish ponds must not be restricted only to urban areas. Let us extend this to the lakes. Let us teach people to keep Tilapia. The so called Siavonga Kapenta from the Kariba Dam came from Kasaba Bay in Nsumbu. That research should be on the ground even today through these funds. The breams we are talking about in the Lake Kariba came from Lake Mweru Wantipa and Luapula. We need some research officers. All the research officers have gone away. That is why, now, we are crying and we do not know who is going to detect the disease in the Western Province. There are no research officers. The last research officers were Mr Pius and Dr Kendle in Mpulungu in 1969.

Since 1969, there has never been any Research Officer. Chilanga is now closed. We need to talk about fish in totality and not with pretence.

Mr Speaker, I propose that this Bill be given the magnitude of understanding it deserves. When it comes to funding, we should start from here. With regard to the National Tourism Board, there is tourism in Chimbamilonga, Kaputa, etc. but none of my people have applied for the Tourism Credit Facility Fund.

Hon. Members: Why?

Mr Sikazwe: There is no information reaching the people there. Let us take information there.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives (Mr Kapita): Mr Speaker, I would like to start by thanking you for giving me this opportunity to wind up the debate on the Fisheries (Amendment) Bill, No. 29 of 2007.

Sir, I have listened very carefully and have digested all the materials given to me through the various people who have debated or made a contribution to this very important Bill. I am, of course, very grateful to the Chairperson of the Committee on Agriculture and Lands, which is your Committee, for the support that he gave me when Tabling the Report on Agriculture and Lands.

I have taken note of the pieces of advice that he gave me. Perhaps, more importantly, he advised me to ensure that we do not allow the genetically modified fish in our lakes, rivers, dams and fish ponds. This is because as a matter of policy, this country decided not to have anything which is genetically modified, and this includes fish. I have taken very serious note of that advice.

Mr Speaker, I have also taken note of the very serious advice on the importance of not allowing the exotic types of fish, some of which is now living off our local species of fish, like what is happening in Luapula River, Lake Mweru and Lake Bangweulu. That advice is very important. We shall only allow that type of fish, as he advised, for research because research is important in any nation. This is because we have to know a number of things about fish.

Sir, I have also taken note of the importance of us beefing up our staff. I think I can marry that with the advice from Hon. Dr Katele Kalumba on the importance of beefing up our staff, and employing fish pathologists. Currently, in our ministry, we have the Department of the Veterinary Livestock Development which is involved in the control of livestock diseases, including management. However, I am afraid we have no single person who is qualified as a pathologist to ensure that we understand the diseases of fish, but, that advice is very well taken. In fact, when I apply for the recruitment of a fish pathologist, I will use this advice to appeal to the Treasury, through the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, to look at funding that office very kindly and sympathetically.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapita: Mr Speaker, I have also taken note of the advice from the Chairperson of the Committee on the importance of us explaining to the ordinary people the licencing mechanism that they are going to use. However, yesterday in this august House, I said that people will not be forced to come to Chilanga because the Director of Fisheries will delegate that power to his field officers who are based in every province. In some Fisheries Management Areas, we will have these officers even in districts. Therefore, nobody will be required to come to Lusaka or Chilanga to get a licence.

Sir, I am very happy that our new hon. Member of Parliament, Hon. Professor Fashion Phiri made his maiden speech during the debate of this important Bill. I have taken very serious note of his comments on agricultural development because he has spoken about the way forward for agriculture. I am in support of what he said on conservation farming, organic farming and the good market that is available for anything which is produced organically.

When I was in London with the President, I visited the co-operatives. I went to a certain shop and was very impressed to find the honey which is produced in Kabompo. That was the only product from Zambia I found in that shop. There were products from Malawi, Kenya and other countries. That impressed me because it is organic. Therefore, I have taken very serious note of that.

Mr Speaker, my good friend Hon. Dr Guy Scott raised some pertinent issues. He talked about the need to ensure that the money is properly shared between the communities and the Government. Definitely, the intention of creating the development funds is to make money available for research, training and provision of extension services in the fisheries management areas. Definitely, I have taken serious note of that. In the regulations that are going to accompany this Bill, we will definitely provide for that. I am grateful to Hon. Dr Guy Scott for his support.

Sir, I also would like to thank Hon. Milupi, Member of Parliament for Luena, who was the first to whisper to me two weeks ago about the fish disease in the Western Province. He has made some pertinent comments with regard to the need for consultation.

I would like to talk about this issue of consultation. I want to confirm here that we consulted very widely, indeed, because the consultations began in 1997. I feel sorry that this Bill has not been passed since 1997, because in the meantime, the fish is depleted. We were dilly-dallying to pass this Bill, and therefore, the fish is depleted. It is like closing a house when the lion is already inside. I am afraid, we have to be bold enough to pass this Bill, if we want the little fish remaining to remain there for us to be able to fish today, tomorrow and in the future.

Mr Speaker, the consultations took place in rural Zambia and not in Lusaka. Those who cared to follow up know that we had consultative meetings in all the Fisheries Management Areas of this country beginning in 1997. It is actually very sad that this Bill is being discussed in 2007, exactly ten years after it should have been passed. Therefore, I want to confirm here that in terms of consultation, we could not have done a better a job.

I want to say that the advice from Hon. Milupi will definitely be taken very seriously. We shall provide for that in the regulations that will be made with this Bill, on aquaculture and the protection of the local people.

Now, Mr Speaker, if we look at Article 23 of the Principal Act of Cap. 200 on page 11, we have said that the Minister may, in his discretion, exempt any person or persons from all or any of the provisions of this Act. These are generally or in respect of any particular area of waters.

The essence of this Bill, Mr Speaker, is to protect those ordinary small-scale farmers, who make a living from fish, but we have unfortunately not protected the fish and they are now beginning to starve because the fish is being depleted. In Malawi, the fish mongers could fish the nice Chambo fish for five years. They completely stopped fishing for three years because there was no fish in the lake. They had another two years of controlled fishing. My colleague who was here from Malawi was asking me to have this Bill passed. He said that if we do not pass this Bill, we are going to learn the hard way Malawi did. This Bill is intended to protect the interest of the small-scale farmers.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapita: Mr Speaker, my summary of all the contributions from those who supported this Bill with some provisos and those who clearly supported it is that they were all saying that if it is not passed tonight, there will be no fish by next year. This is basically what it means. This is my summary and I am very serious and honest. This is because the ban on fishing comes up on 1st December to allow for breeding. Now, I am pleading with this august House that if they want us, as a Government, to protect that fish, they have to pass this Bill tonight. Any other way, we shall just be delaying the D-day because there will be nothing. Do not close the door when the lion is inside. It will be too late.

Mr Speaker, I would like to thank all those who have debated. We shall definitely take care of those canals and lagoons and ensure that the wetlands are not in conflict with our fishing regulations. I thank everybody.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

Committed to a committee of the whole House.

Committee today.

HOUSE IN COMMITTEE

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

THE FISHERIES (Amendment) BILL, 2007

Clause 1 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 2 – (Amendment of Section 2)

The Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives (Mr Kapita): Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 2, on page 3, in lines 5 to 7, by the deletion of paragraph (a) and the substitution therefor of the following new paragraph:

(a) in the definition of –

(i) “fish” by the insertion of a comma and the words “fin, shell fish,” after the word “includes”; and

(ii) “fishing” by the insertion of the words “or intended for the harvesting” after the words “any act directed at”; and

(b) after line 24, by the insertion after the definition of “Committee” of the following new definitions:

“Environmental Council of Zambia” has the meaning 
assigned to it in the Environmental Protection and 
Cap. 204  Pollution Control Act;

  “environmental impact assessment” has the meaning 
   assigned to it in the Environmental Protection and
Cap. 204  Pollution Control Act or in regulations made thereunder.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 2, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 3 – (Insertion of new Part IIA)

Mr Kapita: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 3,

(a) on page 4,

(i) in line 24, by the insertion after the word “consultation” of the words “with the Minister responsible for environmental protection and management, national heritage conservation and management and wildlife management and”.

(ii) after line 33, by the insertion after subclause (2) of the following new sub-clauses:

(3) Where a fisheries management area is in a 
Local Forest or National Forest or in a National Park, the exercise or enjoyment of any fishing right or interest in the area shall be consistent with sustainable forest management or wildlife conservation and management, as the case may be.

(4) In this section –
“Local Forest” has the meaning
   Cap. 199  assigned to it in the Forests Act;

      “National Forest” has the meaning
   Cap. 199  assigned to it in the Forests Act; and

      “National Park” has the meaning
   Act No. 12  assigned to it in the Zambia
   Of 1998  Wildlife Act, 1998.

(b) on pages, in line 24,

by the insertion immediately after the words “those 
effects” of the words “in accordance with the provisions of 
the Environmental Protection and
Cap. 204 Pollution Control Act.”

(c) on page 6
(i) in line 17, by the deletion of the full-stop after the words “section five A” and substitution therefor of a colon;

(ii) after line 17, by the insertion of the following proviso:

Provided that where the fisheries management area
    is in a game management area, the Minister shall appoint
    the committee in consultation with the community
    resource board for that area;

(iii) in line 25, by the deletion of the semi colon at the end of paragraph (c) and the substitution therefor of a colon;

(iv) after line 25, by the insertion of the following proviso:

Provided that where a fisheries management area
   covers two or more chiefdoms, each chief shall nominate a
   representative to the committee;

(d) on page 7, after line 33, by the insertion of the following new sub-clause:

(8) In this section –
  “community resource board” has the meaning
 Act No. 12  assigned to it in the Zambia Wildlife Act; and
 of 1998
    “game management area” has the meaning assigned
 Act No. 12  to it in the Zambia Wildlife Act.
 1998

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 3, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 4 – (Insertion of new Parts IVA and IVB)

Mr Kapita: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 4,

(a) on pages 11

(i) in line 31, by the deletion of the words “and such” after the words “prescribed fee” and the substitution therefor of a comma and the words “an environmental impact assessment report prepared pursuant to section twelve E and such other”;

(ii) in line 33, by the deletion of the words “twelve K” and the substitution
therefor of the words “twelve L”

(b) on page 12, in line 8, by the deletion of the words “twelve K” and the substitution therefor of the words “twelve L”

(c) on page 13

(i) in line 25, by the deletion of the words “twelve K” and the substitution
therefor of the words “twelve L”;

(ii) after line 26, by the insertion of the following new clause:

Requirement   12E. A person intending to
To conduct   engage in aquaculture shall conduct an
Environmental   environmental impact assessment in
Impact    accordance with the provisions of the
Assessment   Environmental Protection and Pollution
Cap. 24   Control Act, and prepare a report thereon for
    The purposes of this Act; and

(d) on page 14, in line 17, by the insertion immediately after the word “purpose” of the words “in consultation with the Environmental Council of Zambia”;

(e) on page 15, in line 10, by the deletion of the words “twelve H” and the substitution therefor of the words “twelve I”;

(f) on page 15, in line 15, by the insertion immediately after the word “Committee” of the words “and the Environmental Council of Zambia”;

(g) on page 16, in lines 25 and 26, by the insertion of the words “and aquaculture” after the word “fisheries”;

(h) on page 17, in lines 4 and 9, by the deletion of the words “twelve M” and the substitution therefor of the words “twelve N”; and

(i) from page 13, in line 27 to page 17, in line 9, by the renumbering of clauses 12E, 12F, 12G, 12H, 12I, 12J, 12K, 12L, 12M, 12N, and 12O as clauses 12F, 12G, 12H, 12I, 12J, 12K, 12I, 12M, 12N, 12O and 12P, respectively.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 4, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Title agreed to.

NATIONAL CONSTITUTIONAL CONFERENCE BILL, 2007

Clause 1 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 2 ─ (Interpretation)

The Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda, SC.): Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 2:

(a) on page 5:

(i) in line 9, by the deletion of the word “recommend” after the words “agreed and” and the substitution therefor of the word “submit”.

(ii) in line 23, by the deletion of the word “appointed” after the words “the person” and the substitution therefor of the word “elected”.

(b) on page 6, in line 20, by the deletion of the word “appointed” after the words “any person” and the substitution therefor of the word “elected”.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 2, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 3 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 4 ─ (Composition of Conference)

Mr Kunda, SC.:  Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 4:

(a) from page 6, in line 37 to page 7, in lines 1 to 10, by the deletion of paragraph (c) and the substitution therefor of the following paragraph:

(c) three representatives each of -

(i) the Zambia Episcopal Conference;

(ii) the Council of Churches in Zambia;

(iii) the Evangelical Fellowship of Zambia; and

Cap. 119 (iv) any other church mother body which is registered under the Societies Act and has been in existence for at least five years;

(b) on page 7:

(i) in line 20, by the deletion of the word “and”;

(ii) in line 21, by the insertion after subparagraph (vii) of the word “and”; and

(iii) after line 21, by the insertion after subparagraph (vii) of the following new subparagraph:

(viii) the General Nursing Council.

(iv) in line 26, by the deletion of the word “and”; and

(v) after line 27, by the insertion after subparagraph (ii) of the following subparagraph:

(iii) the Non-Governmental Organisation Co-ordinating Council;

(iv) the Anti-Corruption Commission;

(v) the Electoral Commission;

(vi) the Drug Enforcement Commission; and

(vii) the Human Rights Commission;

(c) on page 8:

(i) in line 24, by the deletion of the word “three” before the word “representatives” and the substitution therefor of the word “two”;

(ii) in line 35, by the deletion of the word “and”;

(iii) in line 36, by the deletion of the full stop after the word “Zambia” and the substitution therefor of a semi-colon;

(iv) after line 36, by the insertion after subparagraph (iv) of the following new subparagraphs:

(v) the Zambia Chamber of Commerce and Industry; and

(vi) the Zambia Agency for Persons with Disabilities

Cap. 65 established under the Persons with Disabilities Act.

(v) in line 37, by the deletion of paragraph (s) and the substitution therefor of the following new paragraph:

(s) one eminent Zambian, from each province, who has distinguished oneself in any business, field or profession;

(d) on page 9:

(i)  in line 1, by the deletion of paragraph (t) and the substitution therefor of the following new paragraph:

(t) one senior citizen, from each province, who has held public office and is at least fifty-five years old;

(ii) in line 16, by the deletion of paragraph (aa) and the substitution therefor of the following new paragraph:

(aa) one freedom fighter, from each province, who participated in the struggle for independence and is at least sixty-five years old; 

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Mr Kakoma (Zambezi West): Mr Chairperson, I beg to move a further amendment in Clause 4, on page 6, in lines 35 to 36, by the deletion of paragraph (b) and the substitution therefor of the following new paragraph:

“(b) six representatives from each political party which has representation in Parliament;”

Mr Kunda, SC.: Mr Chairperson, I strongly object to this amendment. The hon. Member seeks to exclude those political parties that are not represented in the House from being members of the conference. The provisions that are in the Bill and the amendments that I have just moved are very inclusive. All members of the Zambia Centre for Inter-party Dialogue (ZCID) are included in the membership to the conference.

However, the hon. Member wishes to exclude parties that have helped in the political process and in negotiating the National Constitutional Conference Bill. This is undemocratic. We want an all-inclusive process, therefore, I object to this proposed amendment.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kakoma: Mr Chairperson, the intention of my amendment is …

Dr Machungwa: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Dr Machungwa: Mr Chairperson, I apologise for interrupting my colleague who is contributing so ably, but is the hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services in order to be sitting quietly there without announcing to this House that we have a new Minister of Foreign Affairs and that the House has lost one of its oldest Members?

Laughter  

The Deputy Chairperson: Well, hon. Members, you know that we have a quite a lot of business to consider and I take it that since the Committee is sitting, it would have been difficult for the hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services to know what is happening outside the Chamber, hence I think that he is in order.

Mr Kakoma: Mr Chairperson, first of all, I must indicate that the party that I belong to is a member of ZCID and I know …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Kakoma: … the arrangements under which we have been negotiating. In this country, there are probably more than forty small political parties. Some of these parties just exist on paper. They have just been formed by families, but here we are passing a law to allow these small political parties to send six representatives to the National Constitutional Conference. On the other hand, there are bigger institutions in Zambia that have not been given the same privilege to attend the conference.

Mr Chairperson, I am also aware that the smaller political parties are represented on the board of ZCID by one board member, but that is under administrative arrangements. There is nothing that will stop them from, for example, claiming their legal right to attend the National Constitutional Conference because this Bill says that as long as they are affiliated to ZCID, they can attend the National Constitutional Conference. Therefore, we might be creating a law in which we will entangle ourselves because if they are denied the opportunity to be part of the conference, they can even go to court and seek an injunction to derail the whole process. Is that what we want?

I think the hon. Minister of Justice, who is a learned lawyer, should reconsider his stand because he objected too early before listening to the various arguments. It is also possible that some political parties that are members of ZCID today may not be members in the future. This process is taking twelve months or more and we do not know what will happen in the political arena. Why should a big political party like MMD be kicked out of the National Constitutional Conference if it ceases to be a member of ZCID? Why should a political party’s participation in the National Constitutional Conference be subject to its membership to ZCID?

Mr Chairman, I also know that it can create confusion because if this law is already in place and people form new political parties and affiliate themselves to the Zambia Centre for Inter-party Dialogue, they will also claim that they are entitled to attend the National Constitutional Conference. Therefore, we will see a springing up of new political parties, maybe sponsored by bigger political parties to affiliate themselves to the ZCID so that they can also attend the National Constitutional Conference, increase numbers and have an in-built majority. In this regard, the hon. Minister of Justice needs to reconsider his view.

I thank you, Sir.

The Deputy Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Tetamashimba): Mr Chairman, I wish to object to the amendment sneaked in by the hon. Member of Parliament for Zambezi West.

First and foremost …

Major Chizhyuka: On a point of order, Sir!

The Chairman: A point of order is raised.

Major Chizhyuka: Mr Chairman, is the hon. Deputy Minister of Works and Supply who debates so well most of the times in order to suggest that the hon. Member has sneaked in this amendment when it has been accepted and has met the twenty-four hour rule?

Laughter{mospagebreak}

The Deputy Chairman: Hon. Members, this gives me the opportunity to appeal, once more, to hon. Members to debate with humility if we are to make progress. Can the hon. Deputy Minister of Works and Supply continue and take that point of order into account.

Mr Tetamashimba: Mr Chairman, what has been happening with regard to the Bill before us is that there has been consultation, which, I believe, started well from the time the Presidents met.

From that time, it seemed that this Bill has been supported by almost everybody. The Zambia Centre for Inter-party Dialogue is composed of all the political parties represented in this House and those that do not have representatives in Parliament are also represented by Mr Ngondo. This was done as a way of inclusiveness.

Me Speaker, if tomorrow, a political party sprung up like UPND did and started bringing in Members of Parliament like Hon. Hachipuka and others, they will automatically be members of the Zambia Centre for Inter-party Dialogue.

For me, there will be nothing wrong in such a political party, which would bring Members of Parliament to this House sending representation, if at that time, the National Constitutional Conference would not have started.

Therefore, I believe that this inclusiveness by having President Ngondo represent the other political parties without membership here is a very good job.

For us to move forward with regard to this inclusiveness, we believe that this team that has no representation in Parliament must be heard and be included. If we do not do that, I can assure you that these smaller political parties that are more than twenty out there will start thinking that we, who are in Parliament have a fear of having them heard at the National Constitutional Conference.

Therefore, I do not think there will be any problem in us having our colleagues come with us. I believe that if that amendment is accepted, hon. Chairman for the Indigenous People, some of the people you represent who are members of those small political parties which have no representation here, will stand up and say, ‘our Chairman does not want those of us who have no representatives in the House’. On that score, it is important for us to reject this amendment moved by the hon. Member of Parliament for Zambezi West.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Chairman, in contributing to this amendment, I would like to, first of all, draw the attention of the House to one similar amendment moved by the hon. Learned State Counsel, the Minister of Justice, at page 2 of his amendment. He has a very important amendment, which is talking about churches and it says:

“Any church mother body which is registered under the Societies Act and has been in existence for, at least, five years.”

The reasons he said it that way is that he is very aware that tomorrow or next week, another church mother body can spring up. If it is not qualified, that church mother body would qualify to sit on the National Constitutional Conference.

Starting with that principle therefore, it ought to be agreed as well that as we talk about political parties, we have to be able to draw the line and be able to say which political parties we are talking about tonight. We cannot leave it open ended.

Also, I would like to remind the House that the drafters of the Trust Bill for the Zambia Centre for Inter-party Dialogue took into account the fact that for any political party, there are principles that ought to be met. One of those principles is:

(i) to be the party in government; and

(ii) to be a party that has representation in Parliament.

It was on the basis that the drafters of the Trust Bill decided that every political party that has membership in this House would have two members on the board of ZCID. In recognition of the other political parties that do not meet that threshold, they chose, in their wisdom, that all of them together would be represented only by two people. All the other political parties that have no representation here have equal membership to the ZCID as those that are in this House, and that is the principle that was applied by ZCID. In which case, therefore, we, in Parliament cannot extend the membership to the National Constitutional Conference beyond the one that ZCID accorded to those parties that have no representation in Parliament.

The compromise in this particular matter would be that we recognise the effort of everybody, not only members of ZCID, but every citizen. Like we heard yesterday, this matter is not a matter of a political party or a particular NGO, but one that affects the lives of every Zambian who is speaking about it. A compromise would be that, in view of the fact that ZCID itself recognises all these other political parties without representation in Parliament and recognises them as though they were only one party that is in Parliament, then we could also extend their representation in the NCC to be equal to one party that has membership in Parliament.

Doing it otherwise, is obviously, upsetting the principle because you cannot, on one hand, say a political party that has membership in Parliament has six members and have two board members on ZCID as an individual party, but these small parties that have only two members for all their political parties should also have six representatives on the NCC as individual political parties. You are going against the very principles that were used in coming up with the ZCID.

Sir, Let me end by appealing to my colleagues in this House that it is actually our intention on this side to increase the composition on the NCC. However, we would like to do it in such a way that it is predetermined. We would not like to have any rolling figure because if we do not predetermine this today, tomorrow, ZCID could take a party called Mulongoti and Children Political Party. They will be a member of the ZCID and the moment they are accepted as a member of ZCID, they will also bring six members to the NCC. At which point shall we say this is the total number of politicians sitting on the NCC?

I think I would like to beg my dear friend, Hon. Charles Kakoma, and the learned State Counsel, the hon. Minister of Justice to compromise on this. Let us not extend the membership open and wide. Let us determine the figures here so that by the time this law is passed tonight, it is easy for anyone to go and add the figures and know how many people shall sit in the National Constitutional Conference.

Leaving it like this is leaving it open to manipulation either by the Opposition or the Ruling Party. What is going to stop us from going to form small kitchen parties and bringing them on ZCID which has no reason whatsoever to deny membership of anyone that applies?

Mr Chairman, I think that the reason Hon. Kakoma has moved this amendment is to make sure that we tidy up the law so that we can check what is happening and also that it does not raise any unnecessary acrimony.

I would like to end by saying that yesterday, I heard that the Movement for Multiparty Democracy have been cleansed of their former sins and they must be trusted. Yes, I would like to believe that. Let us take you for your word and this is one of the areas where we can take you for your word.

Thank you, Sir.

The Deputy Chairman: Before Hon. Dr Katele Kalumba comes on, let me just advise, without being seen to be stopping you from debating, that I think we should avoid being repetitious. Let us be succinct and make our points so that many of our colleagues can contribute.

Dr Kalumba (Chienge): Mr Chairman, I would like to, firstly, thank the hon. Member, who has moved the amendment, but also, more significantly, the hon. Member for Kabwata. The point you have raised is important, but it must be put in the context of the original amendment which, I think, I have problems with, which suggests that is right. That is not good.

On the principle that institutions under this Bill were inviting bodies through institutions that are already established, if we follow your logic Hon. Kakoma, then all the NGOs and church mother bodies will have to collapse. So what we need to accommodate as suggested by, perhaps, Hon. Lubinda is that under ZCID, all the political parties outside Parliament are represented as a forum for political parties. That is the category we use. That means under this law they will have six representatives and I think it is accommodating enough. I hope the hon. Minister would consider that.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Sikota (Livingstone): I thank you Mr Chairman. I would like to believe that when ZCID was making the proposals to the Committee, they were thinking exactly along the same lines as what Hon. Lubinda is talking about. Certainly, that is the understanding that we, as the ULP. So we would support it being made clear in the law, that with the parties that do not have political representation in Parliament, together, they would be having six delegates and not individually six. That is the understanding that we had and I would like to believe that that is actually what the hon. Minister of Justice, also, in his Bill, was going for. I think that we are all saying the same thing. All we need to do is simply harmonise it. That is my proposal.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Ah!

The Deputy Minister of Finance (Mr Shakafuswa): Who is saying aah? I …

The Deputy Chairman: Order!

I have given you the Floor. Ignore them and continue.

Mr Shakafuswa: Mr Chairman, I think we have been talking about inclusiveness. We should not think that because we are in this House then we have the best thoughts. There are other people who are out there who have better thoughts. They can also represent the interests of the Zambian and the person out there better than we can.

I will say that the way Hon. Lubinda has argued makes more sense than the amendment which is on the Floor. If the amendment on the Floor sought to address the issues which have been brought by Hon. Lubinda, it was going to be a good amendment. However, as it is, the amendment is defective. We could have appreciated the amendment coming in the spirit in which Hon. Lubinda has brought it where it addresses the concerns of other small parties mushrooming tomorrow and coming on boar, but the amendment has come in a way that wants to give us in Parliament exclusivity.

Out there, people also have their own ideologies which maybe UPND, PF and MMD who have the majority that could have been acquired because of the financial muscles we have, do not have. That will not give us the basis on which we will say we represent the people of Zambia. If they have membership, they have to be heard.

We are talking about the numbers, in Katuba Constituency, all the Catholic members are members of the MMD and in those areas where the Catholic is strong, that is where I got the most votes showing that there is now dual membership. We are talking about more people coming from the church and the political parties. So we will have more people coming in. In this instance, we are just saying let us be inclusive. With regard to This issue we are debating of having six in numbers, here we have forty-three from PF and then another six and then we are saying even those from those political parties that are not in Parliament, but from outside have to come and sit on the conference. That is what we are talking about on the composition being inclusive. If we just say we are the mighty here …

Hon. Member: You have made your point.

Mr Shakafuswa: … Mr Chairman, if we say that now, I will say that here the principle is the same. It is just that maybe they should have also consulted Hon. Lubinda on how to draw the amendment, because as it is, the amendment is defective.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Kakoma: Thank you Mr Chairman. When I was arguing about this amendment, my intention was exactly to put the argument as it has been put by Hon. Lubinda who is a Director of the ZCID Board, we must know that. I would like to agree with that argument and propose that this Bill further be amended to reflect that. I also agree with Hon. Dr Katele Kalumba who is the chairperson of the ZCID Board who has also agreed to the proposal on the Floor of this House that according to their arrangement, six representatives can represent the other smaller political parties. I agree that the Bill be amended to reflect that.

The Deputy Chairman: The understanding of the Chair is that Hon. Kakoma is withdrawing his amendment. Is my understanding correct?

Interruptions

Mr Kakoma: Mr Chairman, I am further amending it.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! We all seem to be agreeing. There is a technical issue of amending his amendment to take into count Hon. Lubinda’s view.

Interruptions

Mr Kunda, SC.: Mr Chairperson, we cannot agree to something which has not been formulated. We do not even know the extent of that amendment. On this side, we are going to reject that amendment because it is was not circulated and is not clear.

Interruptions

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, like we agreed yesterday, this is not a matter to fight over or a question of winners and losers. It is not even a question of a winner takes all. This is a forum at which we would like to discuss level headedly for the sake of this country. I am sure that every Member in this House is aware of the fact that the practice of this House is that further amendments are made at this stage of the creation of our laws. We refine laws at this stage of debate. We have done it before. I do not see any reason it should not happen now. What Hon. Kakoma has done is to accept after he has heard the debate from all of us that his amendment requires refinement. The fact that the refinement has not been circulated should not tie us down because the practice is there. We can even bring the Hansards. I have done it more than eight times in this House.

Interruptions

Mr Lubinda: With the permission of this House, to cut this long story short, for the sake of those who would like to hear the words, I have before me, with the permission of Hon. Kakoma …

Mr Kakoma: I permit you!

Mr Lubinda: … a refinement of these amendments. The amendment that is proposed by Hon. Kakoma and refined after the debate reads as follows, and I quote:

“In clause 4, on page 6, in lines 35 to 36 by the deletion of paragraph (b) and the substitution therefor of the following new paragraph:

(b) six representatives from each political party and the forum of parties which are members of the ZCID”.

Sir, once we have done that, we would have captured the feelings and aspirations of everybody, including that of the Chairman of ZCID. I would like to appeal that we do not use this as a reason for battle. Let us use it to come up with a law that meets the aspirations of the people who we represent.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kunda, SC.: Mr Chairperson, we will concede to that refined amendment.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Amendment to the amendment agreed to.

Amendment amended accordingly.

Mr Sejani (Mapatizya): Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 4, on page 6, in line 37 by the deletion of the word “two” before the word “representatives” and the substitution therefor of the word “six”.

Sir, on page 8, in line 24 by the deletion of the word “three” before the word “representatives” and the substitution therefor of the word “one”.

In line 37 by the deletion of subparagraph (s) and the substitution therefor of the following new subparagraph:

(s) one eminent Zambian from each of the nine provinces of the Republic of Zambia.

On page 9, in line 1 by the deletion of subparagraph (t) and the substitution therefor of the following new subparagraph;

(t) one senior citizen from each of the nine provinces of the Republic of Zambia who is not below the age of sixty-five.

In line 2 by the deletion of word “ten” before the word “senior” and the substitution therefor of the word “four”.

In line 16 by the deletion of subparagraph (aa) and the substitution therefor of the following new subparagraph:

(aa) one freedom fighter from each of the nine provinces of the Republic of Zambia who is not below the age of sixty-five.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kunda, SC.: Mr Chairperson, we will object to these amendments. The amendment on (a) seeks to increase the representation of church mother bodies from two to six, where as I have already moved an amendment increasing the number from two to three and that amendment has already been accepted. Therefore, we will oppose that. These church mother bodies now have sufficient numbers as proposed in the Committee Report from which some of the stakeholders indicated that they wanted three representatives for church mother bodies. So, this is what we have.

Sir, there is the next amendment which seeks to reduce the security agencies’ representatives of the Zambia Army, Zambia Police, Zambia Air Force from three to one. Again under this particular provision, we have amended to reduce from three to two and this is going by what is in the Mung’omba Report. This amendment has already been accepted.

Furthermore, there are other amendments which are proposed in line 37 and on page 9 and page 18 on the appointment of eminent persons, freedom fighters and senior citizens. Again, this has already been considered in my amendments. Therefore, all these amendments, as circulated by Hon. Sejani, should be rejected.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sejani: Mr Chairperson, I do acknowledge that the hon. Minister has made some effort in amending that particular clause.

Sir, let me say that these particular amendments have been motivated by a couple of issues. First of all, we must agree that we want to use this process to bring Zambians together. We want to use this forum to draw between the lines. In the past, the governed and the governors had mutual mistrust. It is motivated by a desire to reduce or deal with perceptions, which might operate to undermine illegitimacy of the whole process and the document.

Mr Chairperson, legitimacy in constitution making is extremely important. For that reason, in spite of what the hon. Minister of Justice has done, there is still a lingering belief that the composition of the NCC is still tilted and disproportionately skewed in favour of the MMD.
Interruptions

Mr Sejani: The MMD with its ally forces make up the bulk of the members of this conference. For that reason, I am motivated to move this amendment and in agreement with the recommendations of the Speaker’s Committee that the church mother bodies representation be increased to six so that it is on a par with the political parties.

Mr Chairperson, in the same vein, the amendment is seeking to reduce the membership of the civil servants who are already being represented by the Public Service Commission. If we maintain the number ten, we are actually over subscribing. You need to reduce them from ten to four.

Further, we are proposing to amend the representation for the security wings from three to one so that we can help reduce this perception that NCC is over dominated by one stakeholder, all in the interest of enhancing harmony and unity of purpose.

I thank you, Sir.

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Magande): Mr Chairperson, I rarely have problems in accepting an argument from Hon. Sejani. The learned hon. Minister of Justice, in the amendment he proposed and was defending, has included on page three, one eminent Zambian from each province. That is what I see in Hon. Sejani’s proposal. I thought he should have withdrawn that because it has already been agreed to by the House.

Again, on page four, he is proposing the inclusion of one senior citizen. That is already provided for on page four of the amendments by the learned hon. Minister of Justice. Therefore, I am not sure what this argument is all about. I think he should have magnanimously withdrawn what is already provided for by the mover of the Bill and argued on what is missing.

Mr Chairperson, what is missing, and that which he wants to amend is the number of civil servants. Fortunately, at the time we are going to discuss these issues, we will need these civil servants in our midst to make an input in the many technical issues.

Yesterday, I referred to part four of the new Constitution, which is talking about public finance and the Budget. If you will only have the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, who does not know the complications of the current Public Finance Act, and give guidance to the conference, he will still end up with something defective, which the civil servants will not be able to do. The experts that you are talking about do not know the arrangement  ...

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairman: Order! I detest having to tell hon. Members that when one is on the Floor, we should listen because if you are talking while seated, we cannot follow the arguments.

Can the hon. Minister continue?

Mr Magande: Mr Chairperson, I appreciate that the Bill does provide for experts. However, those experts are not conversant with the operations of the Ministry of Finance and National Planning at the moment. If you are going to give powers to Parliament on Government’s borrowing, you need somebody who knows the complications of exactly where and when the negotiations can be terminated if we come to Parliament and Parliament rejects this. Otherwise, you will end up putting in place a law that will commit a civil servant to negotiate at the World Bank and when he comes here, Parliament says something else. This can cause complications. This is why we need these senior civil servants. It is not just anybody.

We are trying to get eminent citizens and I am sure that even in our current Civil Service, we have eminent civil servants who understand why we are not progressing in certain areas. Therefore, we need these numbers.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for according me the opportunity to support the amendment moved by Hon. Sejani, in particular, the amendment relating to the three church mother bodies.

 I do not see any injury that will be caused by increasing the number of the representatives from the three mother bodies. You are all aware that the three mother bodies are not political. They have been playing a vital role in the process of Constitution making in this country. There is no harm or mischief that will be created if we increase the number of Catholics from three to six.

Mr Tetamashimba: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairman: A point of order is raised.

Mr Tetamashimba: Mr Chairperson, I stand on a very serious point of order. Is the learned Member of Parliament, who is the Chairman of the Committee, who heard submissions from many people across the country, and made his recommendations, in order to start supporting amendments which he did not include in his report? Is he in order?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairman: I will allow Mr Mwiimbu to address himself to that particular point of order.

Mr Mwiimbu: I thank you, Sir. I rose specifically to support the recommendation of the Committee that the number of delegates of the three mother bodies be equated to the number of delegates that will be sent by the political parties. That is our recommendation, and this is why I am standing. I would like to read our recommendation.

Hon. Member: This is it.

Mr Mwiimbu: No, our recommendation is very clear ...

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairman: Order!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, with your permission, let me get the recommendation because I do not have it with me.

The Deputy Chairman: You have the permission.

Mr Mwiimbu: Thank you, Sir.

Our recommendation Number 2, on page five of our report reads:

“The number of representatives from political parties should be equal to the number of representatives from the church mother bodies.”.

Mr Chairperson, the Act is recommending six representatives from each political party with representation in Parliament and are under ZCID. Therefore, as a Committee, we are within the confines of the Standing Orders to recommend, according to the Committee’s Report, an increase in the number of representatives of the six mother bodies to six. Therefore, I cannot see any mischief that is being created. Even Hon. Mulongoti is a very dedicated church member and he has been lobbying.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson:  Hon. Members, from the look of things, we can ague until dawn. I am afraid, I have to put the question. Now, before I do that, I have an announcement to make.

ANNOUNCEMENT

ARRANGEMENTS FOR DINNER

The Deputy Chairperson:  I wish to inform the House that the following arrangements have been made for dinner this evening.

(a) dinner for all hon. Members will be served in the National Assembly Restaurant, here, at the Parliament Buildings;

(b) dinner for members of staff and Government officials will be served at the National Assembly Members’ Motel;

(c) dinner will be provided at the courtesy of the Hon. Mr Speaker; and

(d) dinner break will be from 2000 hours to 2100 hours.

Hon. Members are required to be seated in the Chamber by 2100 hours. All Whips are requested to ensure that a quorum is formed at 2100 hours.

Thank you.

The Deputy Chairperson: I will now put the question

Question that Clause 4 (a) be further amended put and negatived.

Clause 4 (a) ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Interruptions

Mr Sejani: Mr Chairperson, I have already indicated that I concede the hon. Minister’s necessary amendments on page 8. Therefore, I have no problems with that one.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Leadership!

Mr Sejani: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 4, on page 9,

(a) in line 1, by the deletion of subparagraph (t) and the substitution therefor of the following new subparagraph:

(t) one senior citizen from each of the nine provinces of the Republic of Zambia who is not below the age of sixty-five.

(b) in line 2, by the deletion of the word “ten” before the word “senior” and the substitution therefor of the word “four”; and

(c) in line 16, by the deletion of subparagraph (aa) and the substitution therefor of the following new subparagraph:

(aa) one freedom fighter from each of the nine provinces of the Republic of Zambia who is not below the age of sixty-five.

Mr Kunda, SC.: Mr Chairperson, I take it that the hon. Member has withdrawn the proposed amendments in line 1 and 16 because I have already addressed them. I, therefore, strongly object to the proposed amendment in line 2, because this is where he proposes to reduce the number of civil servants from ten to four. As explained by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, we need senior civil servants of various skills. In this particular case, ten is a fair number so that they can advise the conference on the various operations of the Government. This unique knowledge and expertise can only come from people who have experience in running the Government. Therefore, the conference will benefit from these ten civil servants. From this side of the House, we are going to say, no to this particular amendment and reject it.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Sejani: Mr Chairperson, the point has been made that we need to deal with the issue of perception. I am convinced that the civil servants, together with the Public Service Commission, are over subscribed. Since the Government is insistent on this, I have no problem. I will concede.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members:  Hear, hear! Wisdom! Wisdom!

Question put and agreed to. Leave granted.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 4 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 5 – (Chairperson and Vice-Chairperson)

Mr Kunda, SC.: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 5,

(a) on page 9, in lines 40 to 43, by the deletion of subclause (1) and the substitution therefor of the following new subclause:

(1) The members shall elect a Chairperson and three Vice-Chairpersons of the Conference from among their number:

(b) on page 10, in lines 4 to 11, by the deletion of subclause (2) and the substitution therefor of the following new subclause:

(2) The Minister shall, within fourteen days of the appointment of the members, convene the first meeting of the conference at which the members shall elect a Chairperson and three Vice-Chairpersons as specified in the proviso to subsection (1).

Mr Kakoma: Mr Chairperson, although there are slight differences in the wording, in the spirit of give and take, …

Laughter

Mr Kakoma: … I concede and withdraw my amendment.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Question put and agreed to. Leave granted.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 5 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 6 – (Tenure of Office and Vacancy)

Mr Kunda, SC.: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 6,

(a) on page 10, in line 39, by the insertion of a comma and the words “on the recommendation of the standing committee,” after the words “Cabinet may”; and
 
(b) on page 11, in line 20, by the deletion of the words “the notice” after the words “fourteen days of” and the substitution therefor of the words “of such resignation, vacation of, or removal from, office or new appointment”.

CLAUSE 7 – (Oath of Office)

Mr Kunda, SC.: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 7, on page 11,

(a) in line 28, by the deletion of the colon after the word “Act” and the substitution therefor of a full stop; and
 
(b) in lines 29 to 31, by the deletion of the proviso.

Clauses 8, 9, 10, 11 and 12 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 13 – (Functions of the Conference)

Mr Kunda, SC.: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 13, on page 15,

(a) in line 12, by the deletion of the words “recommend the” after the words “they shall” and the substitution therefor of the words “submit to the Minister for”;

(b) in line 13, by the deletion of the word “submission to Parliament of” before the words “a draft bill” and the substitution therefor of the words “presentation to Parliament,”’

(c) in line 16, by the deletion of the words “of” after the words “submission to a referendum” and substitution therefor of a comma and the words “a draft bill for”;

(d) in line 19, by the insertion of a comma after the words “agreement or”

(e) in line 23, by the insertion of a comma and the word “add” after the word “confirm”.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 2000 hours until 2100 hours. 

CLAUSE 13 – (Functions of the Conference)

Mr Kunda, SC.: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 13, on page 15:

(a) in line 12, by the deletion of the words “recommend the” after the words “they shall” and the substitution therefor of the words “submit to the Minister for”;

(b) in line 13, by the deletion of the words “submission to Parliament of” before the words “a draft bill” and the substitution therefor of the words “presentation to Parliament,”;

(c) in line 16, by the deletion of the word “of” after the words “submission to a referendum” and the substitution therefor of a comma and the words “a draft bill for”;

(d) in line 19, by the insertion of a comma after the words “agreement or”

(e) in line 23, by the insertion of a comma and the word “add” after the word “confirm”.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 13, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22 and 23 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 24 – (Adoption of Report and Draft Bill)

Mr Kunda, SC.:  Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 24, on page 21, in line 14 by the deletion of the comma and the words “adopt and recommend, to the Minister,” after the word “draft” and the substitution therefor of the words “and adopt”.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 24, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 25 – (Presentation of Bill to National Assembly etc.)

Mr Kunda, SC.: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 25, on page 21, in line 18 by the deletion of the words “and recommended” after the word “adopted”.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 25, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 26 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 27 – (Establishment of Fund)

Mr Kunda, SC.: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 27, on page 22:

(a) in line 30 to 31 by the deletion of the words “the drafting committee or” after the words “members of”

(b) in line 36, by the insertion of a comma and the words “members of the drafting committee” after the word “consultants”.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 27, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 28, 29, 30 and 31 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 32 – (Dissolution of Conference)

Mr Kunda, SC.: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 32, on page 24:

(a) after line 6, by the insertion after subclause (2) of the following new subclause:

(3) The Conference may dissolve itself following a resolution to do so which is supported by a two-thirds majority vote of the members.;

(b) in lines 7 and 21, by the renumbering of subclause (3) and (4) as (4) and (5) respectively;

(c) in line 22, by the insertion of the words “or (4)” after the words “subsection (3)”.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr Kakoma: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move a further amendment in Clause 32, on page 24, in lines 7 to 20 by the deletion of subclause (3) and the substitution therefor of the following new subclause:

“(3) The Conference shall dissolve itself at any stage of the adoption process by two-thirds majority.”

Mr Kunda, SC.: Mr Chairperson, I thought that the hon. Member was going to withdraw this amendment. If this amendment is allowed, it means that the powers which will be vested in the President to dissolve the Conference on the grounds stated in the Bill will no longer be available to the President. The danger of this as rightly pointed out by Hon. Hachipuka when he debated this Bill within his wisdom, is that if for example, the members of the Conference want to continue debating in the conference for say, an indefinite five years they are just debating, there is need to vest some powers in the Head of State in whom we have entrusted the affairs of this nation, to bring this Conference to an end. I thought that this was well explained. Perhaps Hon. Kakoma should be gracious enough and withdraw this particular amendment.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kunda, SC.:  Otherwise if it is not withdrawn, we shall vote against it and reject this particular amendment.

Interruptions

Mr Kakoma: Mr Chairperson, whilst I am a very flexible person, I want to state that the reasons being advanced by the Hon. Learned Minister of Justice are actually not correct.

This particular Clause must not be read in isolation. There are other Clauses in the Bill that take care of the concerns raised by the learned hon. Minister of Justice.

Mr Chairperson, in Clause 22 – Duration of Process, I will quote Clause 22 (1):

‘ Subject to the proviso to subsection (2) of section seventeen and subsection (2), the Conference shall complete its work within a period of twelve months from the commencement of this Act or such longer period as the President may specify by statutory instrument:’

Mr Chairperson, it is, therefore, very clear that the Conference cannot go on debating forever. The Clause has already provided for the Conference to come to an end and for the President to stop the Conference by statutory instrument. So, probably, he has other reasons for maintaining that Clause, the reasons he is advancing are not convincing to me.

Mr Chairperson, I would like the hon. and Learned Minister of Justice to convince me further with any reasons that he thinks should justify me to withdraw.

I thank you, Sir.

Interruptions

Mr Shakafuswa: Mr Chairperson, it is only right that this amendment is withdrawn. Mr Chairperson, one thing which is common and clear here is that this is the only part which is mentioning the President in this whole Bill. This President here is the Republican President and not Mr Mwanawasa because presidency is an institution. If it has eluded the hon. Member, it just gives him options of doing better. Let us not look at presidency as Mr Mwanawasa, but as an institution which is able to do certain things on behalf of the people. So if it is just a question of the person in the presidency and which I know is the bottom line of your amendment, it is wrong. Let us look at it all …

Interruptions

Mr Kasongo: Leka abakalamba balandepo.

Mr Shakafuswa: This thing can also go in perpetuity. I know how we feel. Let us leave it where we can have somebody who can, on behalf of the State, come in and make a decision.

I thank you, Sir.

Interruptions

Mr Sikota: Mr Chairperson, from the arguments I have heard, I believe that the worry by the mover of the proposed amendment is that there could be premature and arbitrary use of this power by the President. I believe that this is the worry which is there and then listening from the other side, I hear that their worry is that if there is ordinate delay there should be some mechanism to bring the whole process to a close. Perhaps we could take care of both positions by putting a time limit from which the President will be able to exercise such power so that both sides of the argument can then be taken care of.

For example, Mr Chairperson, if there was a clause which stated that provided the President will not exercise this power within eighteen months of the commencement of the process, I would like to propose to the mover that perhaps he amends his proposed amendment further to that effect.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Matongo (Pemba): Mr Chairperson, frankly I have been reluctant to debate this matter because I thought it was a matter our Committee Chairperson dealt with very well.

Mr Chairperson, I have two positions. There seems to be a predetermined position that there will be a particular President at a particular time exercising this function. My thinking is contrary to that. Let us assume that it shall be indefinite and at no time shall we have an indefinite President because there are two terms.

Mr Chairperson, having argued that with the hon. Minister, I now put it to ourselves merely to get the hon. Minister to think along with us, it is about faith and trust. Hon. Minister there are certain people with little faith and others that will believe you. What Hon. Kakoma is saying convinced me and if I were you, I would deal with the matter as follows.

Interruptions

Mr Matongo: I will deal with the matter as persuasively as possible. I have listened to the debates and I would say that there has been positive movement and way forward. Earlier, some hon. Member asked how come we were receiving accolades of maturity when it fits you that side. That is a divisive arrangement I do not want to see because when we do something here, you do not return that. In fact, an hon. Member in Gonakuzingwa the other day almost derailed a debate by saying ‘bomb’ and I took no exception to that. When we agree here, we are Government.

Mr Chairperson, I want to persuade the hon. Minister to please persuade our colleague to see that, in fact, I do not believe that President Mwanawasa shall be at the Conference. I believe he has bee excluded, but all other party presidents are included. I like to believe very fundamentally that the dissolution of this august House is on the basis that the serving President at that particular time or the assembly shall dissolve itself. I frankly would feel that with candid persuasion, we would reach an agreement.

Mr Chairperson, there are also safety nets in our constitutional provisions where for some reason, the President is disabled, there is always the Chief Justice and so what is the problem in persuading Hon. Kakoma that actually we would make progress along these lines.

Mr Chairperson, do not listen to these giddy jammers because they have not learned the process. Please, listen to us because we want to move the process ahead.

Having stated that, we are with you only to the extent to create peace and stability and I have debated this issue when I did not even want to because that President is a President of the future and not a particular person as some nephew wanted to think along those lines.

I thank you, Sir.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: I can see the hon. Deputy Minister of Works and Supply…

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I have given the Floor to the hon. Deputy Minister of Works and Supply.

Mr Tetamashimba: Mr Chairperson, thank you very much for allowing me to catch your eye. The hon. Member told me during the break that he would not withdraw, in case you did not talk to him. I want to follow the line first and foremost by Hon. Hachipuka yesterday. Secondly, from my brother who has been with us when we started the multiparty democracy which seems now to have some small problems.

Interruptions

Mr Tetamashimba: Mr Chairperson, the issue of Hon. Kakoma has already been taken care of in the original Bill by the amendment of the hon. Minister which states, after Item No. 2 to read through, as a Conference may dissolve itself following a resolution to do so which is supported by two-third majority vote of the Members.

Another item that I want to bring is that this Constitutional Conference we are debating, after we pass this Bill, will not be superior to Parliament. It is our creation and we cannot say that the Conference should not be dissolved by a Head of State who Hon. Hachipuka had said yesterday should be trusted with the process. So, as we give our powers to participate in the Conference, I hope my colleagues will look at a situation whereby we should not be seen to be an institution which can be dissolved by the President, while we are creating an institution which cannot be dissolved by the President.

I want to assure my colleagues on my left, Mr Chairperson, that the intention of this Government is not to interfere with the proceedings of the National Constitutional Conference. According to what we have stated before, we have given a year in which the Zambian people would want the Constitution to be in place. There were some other arguments which were brought up by the stakeholders that they needed may be an extra three months. I heard this on television and so on. So, all we are saying is since the Zambian people have resolved and the Members of Parliament here have resolved that we want a Constitution not by 2011, but as soon as possible and your Government has agreed and you are part of that Government that twelve months …

Mr Muntanga: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Deputy Minister in order to continue persuading our Member who has already been persuaded by ourselves …

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: … to take action Is he in order to continue wasting our time and not letting us act as positively as possible. Is that man in order, Chair?

The Deputy Chairperson: In view of that point of order, can the hon. Deputy Minister conclude his debate.

Mr Tetamashimba: Mr Chairperson, I am very grateful to my colleagues who have been in the party for a long time for having convinced the Member of Parliament that he should withdraw. I am very grateful Hon. Kakoma.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Deputy Chairperson: Well we proceed since it has been withdrawn.

Interruptions

Mr Kakoma: Mr Chairperson, as a matter of procedure, I would like to thank my colleagues who have persuaded me, …

Laughter

Mr Kakoma: … despite me having thought I had a solid legal argument, to withdraw the amendment. I must say that some people there do not know how to persuade.

Laughter

Mr Kakoma: On that point, Mr Chairperson, I would like to withdraw officially.

I thank you, Sir.

Question put and agreed to. Leave granted.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 32, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 33 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedules on pages 25 and 26 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Title agreed to.

_____

HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

The following Bills were reported to the House as having passed through Committee with amendments:

The Fisheries (Amendment) Bill 2007.

Report Stage now.

Report adopted

Third reading now.

National Constitutional Conference Bill, 2007

Report Stage now.

Report adopted.

Third reading now.

THE ANTI-TERRORISM BILL, 2007

CLAUSE 2 – (Interpretation)

Mr Kakoma: Mr Speaker, I beg to move a further amendment in Clause 2 as follows:

(a) on page 7, in lines 23 to 29, by the deletion of the paragraph and the substitution therefore of the following:

“terrorism and terrorist act” means a pre-meditated act or omission in or outside Zambia and is intended, or by its nature and context, may reasonably be regarded as being intended to intimidate or threaten the public or a section of the public or compel a government or an international organisation to do, or refrain from doing, any act, and is made for the purpose of advancing a political, ideological or religious cause through violence and which-“

Sir, I intended to propose that Clause 2 be further amended, but after further consultations with hon. Minister of Justice, I have decided to withdraw it.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Question put and agreed to. Leave granted.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Kakoma: Mr Speaker, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 2 as follows:

(b) on page 8

(i) in line 23, by the deletion of the semi-colon and the substitution therefor of the colon; and

(ii) after line 23, by the insertion of the following proviso:

Provided that the struggle for liberation or self-determination including armed struggle against colonialism, occupation, aggression and domination by foreign forces shall not constitute an offence under this Act;

Sir, I intended to insert a proviso after line 23, but in the spirit of give and take …

Laughter

Mr Kakoma: … and after further consultation with the hon. Minister of Justice, the learned Lawyer, I have decided to withdraw it.

Laughter

Question put and agreed to. Leave granted.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

CLAUSE 5 – (Prohibition of Terrorism)

Mr Kakoma: Mr Speaker, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 5, on page 9, in line 37, by the deletion of the word “life” and the substitution therefor of the words “a minimum of twenty years and a maximum of life imprisonment”

Sir, after looking at the sentence that is being proposed in the Anti-Terrorism Bill, it appears that there is only one sentence. That is life imprisonment for all or most of the offences.

Mr Speaker, I would like to state that the one sentence for all the offences does not take into account the degree of involvement in terrorism by the various actors. I, therefore, propose that we insert a minimum of twenty years and a maximum of life imprisonment for the various offences as may be decided by the court.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kunda, SC.: Mr Speaker, I can confirm that I have had discussions with Hon. Kakoma, and in the spirit of give and take …

Laughter

Mr Kunda, SC.: … we accept this amendment.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 5, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 34 – (Power To Intercept Communication and Admissibility of Intercepted Communications)

Mr Kakoma: Mr Speaker, I beg to move a further amendment in Clause 34, on page 25, as follows:

(i) in line 12, by the deletion of the full stop and the substitution therefor of a colon; and

(ii) after line 12, by the insertion of the following proviso:

Provided that the judge shall determine the period within which the order for interception of communications shall be in force.

Sir, I intended to move an amendment to this Clause, but after further consultations …

Laughter

Mr Kakoma: … and in the spirit of give and take, and after taking into consideration national interest on defence and security, I have decided to withdraw this amendment.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Question put and agreed to. Leave granted.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Report adopted.

Third Reading now.
THIRD READING

The following Bills were read the third time and passed:

the Fisheries (Amendment) Bill, 2007;

the National Constitutional Conference Bill, 2007; and

the Anti-Terrorism Bill, 2007

__________

MOTION

ADJOURNMENT SINE DIE

The Vice-President (Mr R. Banda): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn sine die

Question put and agreed to.
__________

The House adjourned accordingly at 2139 hours on Wednesday, 22nd August, 2007, sine die.