DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE SECOND SESSION OF THE TENTH ASSEMBLY

Friday, 15th January, 2008

The House met at 0900 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

________________

BISINESS OF THE HOUSE

The Minister of Defence (Mr Mpombo): Mr Speaker, I rise to give the House some idea of the business it will consider next week.

 Sir, on Tuesday, 19th February, 2008, the Business of the House will begin with Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will resolve into Committee of Supply on this year’s Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure and will consider the following heads:

Head 12 - Commission for Investigations – Office of the President;
Head 13 - Ministry of Energy and Water Development; and
Head 14 - Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development.

On Wednesday, 20th February, 2008, the Business of the House will begin with Questions if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. After that, the House will consider Private Members’ Motions, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will resolve into Committee of Supply on this year’s Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure and will consider the following heads:
Head 17 - Ministry of Foreign Affairs;
Head 18 - Judiciary; and
Head 27 - Public Service Management Division.

Mr Speaker, on Thursday, 21st February, 2008, the Business of the House will begin with Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. After that, the House will resolve into Committee of Supply on this year’s Estimate of Revenue and Expenditure and will consider the following heads:

Head 20 - Loans and Investment – Ministry of Local Government and Housing;
Head 29 - Ministry of Local Government and Housing;
Head 21 - Loans and Investment – Ministry of Finance and National Planning;
Head 37 - Ministry of Finance and National Planning; and
Head 26 - Ministry of Information and Broadcasting Services.

Sir, on Friday, 22nd February, 2008, the Business of the House will begin with His Honour the Vice-President’s Question Time. Then, the House will consider Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will resolve into Committee of Supply on this year’s Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure and will consider the following heads:

Head 31 - Ministry of Justice;
Head 33 - Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry; and 
Head 34 - Human Rights Commission.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

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QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

MONEY OWED TO ZESCO BY DIFFERENT ORGANISATIONS

157. Mr Kambwili (Roan) asked the Minister of Energy and Water Development how much money ZESCO Ltd is owed in electricity bills by the following:

(i) domestic electricity consumers country-wide;

(ii) the Government;

(iii) the mining companies;

(iv) the manufacturing companies; and

(v) the churches.

The Minister of Energy and Water Development (Mr Konga): Mr Speaker, I would like to inform the House as follows:

(i) domestic electricity consumers owe Zambia Electricity Supply Company (ZESCO) K142.7 billion as at 31st December, 2007;

(ii) Government owes ZESCO K11.7 billion;

(iii) mining companies are current on payment of their bills;

(iv) manufacturing companies which include agriculture and categorised under “maximum demand” owe ZESCO K40.9 billion; and

(v) the churches which are categorised under “social sector” together with small water utilities like hospitals and schools owe ZESCO K21.1 billion.

Mr Speaker, I would also like to inform the House that there are also categorised customers. Commercial customers owe ZESCO K38.9 billion. The parastatal institutions owe ZESCO K5.8 billion. Water utilities like Nkana Water Company, Lusaka Water and Sewerage Company and Southern Water Company owe ZESCO K29.1 billion. The various municipalities in the country owe ZESCO K1.3 billion. Currently, ZESCO is owed a total amount of K243.6 billion.

 Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, it is evident that ZESCO is owed colossal sums of money by all the categories of consumers. Is the Government thinking of introducing quickly pre-paid meters so that this kind of situation is avoided?

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Konga: Mr Speaker, since Government has directed ZESCO to operate on commercial basis, it must improve its revenue collection. One of the objectives that it has been given is to install pre-paid meters to all domestic customers. To this effect, there is a plan of installing pre-paid meters.

Phase one has been done in some townships of Lusaka and ZESCO will have received by March another 70,000 metres which it will install to other customers in Lusaka. By June this year, ZESCO will start manufacturing pre-paid metres at its plant in Ndola with the support of an Egyptian company called Ell Sewedy. This ZESCO plant will be assembling metres that will cater for all categories of customers that remained in Lusaka, the Copperbelt Province and the rest of the country.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kasongo (Bangweulu): Mr Speaker, Government has always assured this House that it will liquidate its indebtedness to ZESCO through the debt swap arrangement. When will this arrangement be effective?

Mr Konga: Mr Speaker, the debt swap has actually been an on-going exercise. As you may be aware, services that ZESCO provides are not at all finite. The ZESCO’s request for support from Government is also not finite, but on-going. As such, from the figure that I earlier mentioned, hon. Members might be aware that the debt was much larger than what I mentioned and part of this debt has been liquidated through debt swap. As I speak now, efforts are underway to ensure that some of the debt that Government owes ZESCO and some of ZESCO’s liability to Government where appropriate can also be liquidated through debt swap. This is exercise is on-going.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Mr Speaker, are there any plans by Government to sell off ZESCO since it has operational and liquidity problems?

Mr Konga: Mr Speaker, as of today, Government does not intend to sell off ZESCO instead it has let ZESCO operate as a commercial utility. To this effect, the Energy Regulations Board (ERB) has met with ZESCO and they have come up with operational and financial benchmarks which ZESCO should live up to as a commercial utility. Once these things are attained, Government must be assured that ZESCO will operate as a commercial utility. However, to answer the hon. Member’s question, Government does not intend to sell off ZESCO at present.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Malama (Mfuwe): Mr Speaker, what is the Government doing to reduce the illegal connections that are hampering ZESCO to collect its money from its customers in the compounds?

Mr Konga: Mr Speaker, ZESCO is a company which is registered under statutes of this country and, as such, its management is responsible for the day to day operations of the company. There is a board of directors which comes up with policies for the company, of course, which are derived from Government’s general energy policy. As such, the day to day functions of management of ZESCO are the responsibility of ZESCO and Government only gives the general form of policy in energy sector.

Sir, to compliment the efforts ZESCO does, Government tries to sensitise the public that it is in their interest and the country at large that all assets of the public are protected. One of such assets is illegal connections. I am aware that there are a lot of illegal connections in townships, especially at the markets and ZESCO has formed inspectorate teams to curb as much as possible illegal connections.

However, I would like to appeal to the hon. Members of this House not to leave this task of illegal connections to ZESCO alone because this energy which is being stolen is not contributing to the coffers of ZESCO and, as such, it is just losing money. In the process, ZESCO is not able to provide quality service to the good meaning customers. I, therefore, appeal to all hon. Members of the House to report such vices to the police wherever they are seen in order to help ZESCO.

I thank you, Sir.
Mr Nsanda (Chimwemwe): Mr Speaker, considering the fact that electricity is very low in this country, is the Government not thinking of reducing power to 110 volts like the way it has been done in the United States of America and other countries? Is the Government not thinking of reducing power instead of using 240 volts so that more people can access electricity?

Mr Konga: Mr Speaker, the supply voltage does not in any way determine the quantity of power that can be supplied. Domestic supply is at 110 volts at a frequency of 60 megahertz and that is one option of supply. The other option is at 220 volts at a frequency of 50 megahertz. This is just a supply voltage, but does not determine the volume or quantum of power at all. Whether you supply power at 110 volts, it does not mean you have will have more energy to supply. That is not the case. That is just one of the voltages of supply which does not determine the quantum at all.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Munaile (Malole): Mr Speaker, there are provinces in this country that have the capacity to generate electricity, what is the hon. Minister doing to ensure that those provinces, like Northern, Luapula and Northern-Western have their power stations uplifted so that they are able to stand alone as provinces to reduce the load on the main line?

Mr Simama: Hear, hear!

Mr Konga: Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Malole for raising this question. Government wants all the corners of this country to develop. We need energy because it is a primary drive to force. The Government has recognised and identified various generation capacities throughout the country. We have identified Kalungwishi Falls, for instance, in the Northern Province, which has already been given to a private developer. The Government is working at rehabilitating the equipment at Chishimba Falls in Northern Province, Musumba Falls in Luapula Province as well as Lunzuwa Falls although the generator is very negligible. Only recently a tender for generation of power at Kabompo Falls in the North-Western Province had closed late last month. Therefore, Government is making all efforts to ensure that all the generation resources that are available in the country are actually optimally utilised.

Mr Speaker, like I said last time, this effort should not only be left to Government alone, but I invite members of the public who have the capacity to invest. Government is working on this with private investors. We do not want this thing to be done by private investors only, but local investors to come on board to participate in securing electricity supply for this country. To answer specifically the question, yes, Government is working to ensure that the generation capacity in the country is optimally utilised.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

COMPLETION OF LAFARGE CEMENT PLANT

158. Mr Kambwili (Roan) (on behalf of Mr D. Mwila) (Chipili) asked the Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry:

(a) when the new plant for Chilanga Cement Limited, now called Lafarge Cement, will be completed;

(b) what the total estimated cost of the project is;

(c) which contractors have been engaged to work on the project;

(d) how many jobs will be created on completion of the project; and

(e) what the expected annual production capacity will be.

The Deputy Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry (Ms Siliya): Mr Speaker, Lafarge Cement Plant is scheduled to be completed by June 2008. The total estimated cost of the project is US$120 million. The contractors engaged to work on the project is CBMI of China.

Mr Speaker, the current plant has 175 employees and Tukule Project will create 109 additional jobs. It should be noted that after the plant is constructed, additional jobs will be created through outsourcing, such as, in packaging, transport and retailing.

Finally, the expected annual production capacity will be 830,000 tonnes per year for Tukule Project. The current production capacity for the Chilanga and Ndola plants is 200,000 tonnes and 450,000 tonnes per year respectively. This brings the overall annual capacity to 1,480,000 tonnes.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, out of the 1,480,000 tonnes annual production capacity of cement from both companies, how much is expected from this?

The Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry (Mr Mutati): Mr Speaker, our current annual demand is about 700,000 metric tonnes. We have a shortfall in the range of 50,000 metric tonnes. With an increment of 1.4 million metric tonnes starting from June 2008, it technically means that we shall have another supply of about 700,000 metric tonnes. That will be available this year for export, but this quantity will continue to reduce as the economic activities in Zambia continue to increase.
I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kasongo (Bangweulu): Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister guarantee that after the new plant has been commissioned, the price of cement will go down which is currently beyond reach of potential builders, especially Zambians?

Mr Mutati: Mr Speaker, in a situation where demand typically outstrips supply, you create a pricing distortion. It is expected that when supply is more than demand, the price of cement will come down.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Hachipuka (Mbabala): Mr Speaker, what mechanism is this Government envisaging, knowing that there is a shortfall in the whole region, to protect the Zambians who want cheaper cement?

Mr Mutati: Mr Speaker, there are two mechanisms that we are putting in place. One is to assure stability of supply of cement in Zambia. Secondly, Government is to induce the price reduction so that we give opportunity, particularly, to the construction industry to expand. We have engaged in negotiations with our colleagues, the Government of Zimbabwe, to import additional cement into Zambia because they have found themselves in an over supply situation.

The other issue is that we have sent a delegation this morning that has gone to negotiate for the construction of another cement plant, which will have the capacity to produce about a million tonnes and, all things being equal, this should come into play in about 2 years’ time. The intention is that, given the annual growth, Lafarge Cement Plant will be able to supply for another 3 to 4 years. Therefore, if we begin to construct another plant now, we shall have adequate supply for a much longer time.

I thank you, Sir.
Mrs Mwamba (Lukashya): Mr Speaker, what mechanisms have been put in place to protect the interest of the former workers of Chilanga Cement Limited?

Mr Mutati: Mr Speaker, there are 175 employees at the current plant at the moment and there will be an increase of 109 upon completion. Therefore, the only protection that you can render is when you expand your production capacity and continue to operate on a sustainable basis long-term.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kakoma (Zambezi West): Mr Speaker, through a ministerial statement, the Government told this House that the current shortage of cement on the Zambian market is due to a breakdown of a kiln at the Chilanga Factory in Ndola. This was going to be sorted out within 3 months. In fact, this happened last year. Has the kiln been repaired and if it has, why is there a continued shortage of cement on the Zambian market when there was an assurance from the Government that once the Ndola Plant is fully operational, shortages will be a thing of the past?

Mr Mutati: Mr Speaker, the critical issue is the escalating demand particularly arising from the mining sector. There are three principle activities that are absorbing colossal amounts of cement. Firstly, there is the Konkola Deep Mine, Lumwana Mine and to some extent, the general expansion of the mining sector as one of the causes for the shortage. Secondly, construction is booming not only in Lusaka, but elsewhere. Thirdly, it is the expansion taking place in the tourism sector. Therefore, whilst we repair the kiln, the demand itself has continued to escalate and, therefore, the final answer to this problem is increased production capacity and not necessarily repairing of the kiln.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Scott (Lusaka Central): Mr Speaker, it is very clear from what the hon. Minister has said that the production of cement is relatively in few hands or concentrated in a few small plants. In Zambia, this typically leads to the formation of cartels and excessive pricing. What plans or policies does the ministry have to act against cartels and ensure competitive pricing?

Mr Mutati: Mr Speaker, one of our major objectives is to encourage competition. I indicated earlier that we have sent a delegation to negotiate for the construction of another cement plant that will have a capacity of 1 million tonnes almost equal to the capacity of Lafarge Cement Plant. Unless we diversify our production base, only then can we be meaning fully able to control competition and so our strategy is to bring in another major supplier of cement to encourage competition. 
I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo): Mr Speaker, may I know from the hon. Minister whether cement being produced in Zambia will have the strength that is required for bridge construction. We do not want to see the same situation which happened in Luapula Province. We have been informed that the cement that is locally produced is not strong enough. Contractors were forced to import from Tanzania during the construction of a bridge in Luapula province.  Will the cement be used for bridge construction in Zambia?

Mr Mutati: Mr Speaker, from the information available and working in collaboration with the Ministry of Works and Supply, we facilitated the supply of cement for the Chembe Bridge and we have not received a report from either the contractor or the Ministry of Works and Supply that the cement that was supplied is defective.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Kalumba (Chienge): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister may wish to know that this side of the House is also interested in the expansion of the construction industry. In view of the fact that the hon. Minister has conceded that there is great demand and expansion in a number of sectors, what specific incentives are being put in place to encourage more investors in this area?

Mr Mutati: Mr Speaker, there are three sets of incentives that are being put in place in this particular industry. The first incentive is on the demand side. When the economy grows, it creates a market space and that is an incentive. Beyond that, we are members of the Common Market for Eastern and Southern Africa (COMESA) and Southern African Development Community (SADC) and, therefore, the market space is quite large. First of all, from an entrepreneur’s perspective, you need the market space which is on hand.

Mr Speaker, the second incentive is that we have specific incentives under the Zambia Development Agency (ZDA), including zero taxation of profits for the first 5 years. I believe that is sufficient incentive for any businessman to engage in the production of cement. 

I thank you, Sir.

STAFF ESTABLISHMENT FOR DOCTORS AND NURSES IN EASTERN PROVINCE

159. Mr I Banda (Lumezi): asked the Minister of Health:

(a) what the staff establishment for doctors and nurses was in the Eastern Province, district by district; and

(b) what the current level of staffing for doctors and nurses was in the Eastern Province, district by district.

The Deputy Minister of Health (Dr Puma): Mr Speaker, I wish to respond as follows:

District         Doctors        Nurses

 Chadiza          1               12

 Chama           2                23

 Katete          11             111

 Lundazi        6             100

 Mambwe      4               57

 Nyimba         5              79

 Petauke        14           211

 Chipata          4            131

 Chipata General Hospital 22     96

 Total             69            820

Mr Speaker, with regard to the second part of the question, the response is as follows:

District               Staff in post for       Staff in post for
                          Doctors                    Nurses

 Chadiza               0                              40

 Chama                1                              23

 Katete                4                              142

 Lundazi              3                              87

 Mambwe            1                             36

 Nyimba               1                              34

 Petauke            14                            156

 Chipata              4                             131

 Chipata General Hospital  9             111

 Total               29                              792

Mr Speaker, further, a doctor has been sent to Kamoto Mission Hospital in Mambwe and has already reported. The nurses that have been mentioned include all categories of cadres. Further, the doctors in Chipata District include the District Director Health and two doctors at Mwami Hospital.

In addition to this information, there are three level-one hospitals in Petauke. Further, one doctor has been posted to Nyimba while two have been posted to Chipata General Hospital, but they have not yet reported following the recent postings.
 
I thank you, Sir.

Mr I. Banda: Mr Speaker, looking at the shortage of these life saving workers, when does the hon. Minister plan to fill all the vacant positions of the establishment so that equitable distribution of medical services is achieved in the province as we strive to meet the Millennium Development Goals ( MDGs) by 2015?

Mr Speaker: Hon. Minister, as you are preparing to answer, you may wish to know that more than half of the House is not paying attention. I wonder whether there is any need to continue with this kind of business before the House.

The Minister of Health (Dr Chituwo): Mr Speaker, it is a concern and commitment of the ministry to ensure that we staff our health institutions with adequate skilled personnel. This is why already 1,700 health workers have been recruited, but clearly operating at 50 per cent. We have a long way to go because our target is 51,000 health workers. Currently, we only have 26,000 health workers.

In order to quicken this pace, nursing schools that were closed have been re-opened. The Ministry has also introduced a 2-year direct entry midwifery training course, hence the increase in nursing training schools so that we can as much as possible fill the vacancies as per establishment. The House may also to know that we also have the retention scheme. Therefore, we are doing everything possible to retain our staff in the rural institutions so that they serve our people equitably.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Imenda (Lukulu East): Mr Speaker, may I find out whether the hon. Minister is in a position to explain why there is an imbalance in the distribution of medical staff, where you find one doctor serving in one district and six or seven doctors serving in one district. 

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, the imbalance can be explained by the fact that you will find that there are, in some districts, three first-one hospitals. In other words, it is a departure preferably from one hospital per district. If there is only one district hospital say in Lukulu East, for instance, then only one doctor will be sent there. However, if there are two hospitals in this constituency, then we strive as much as possible to send enough medical officers to these first level hospitals. Basically, that is the reason for this imbalance. 
Further, allocation of funds is per capita. Therefore, one finds that the amount of resources allocated to these hospitals serving a certain number of people is smaller than if they had only one or two such hospitals.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Habeenzu (Chikankata): Mr Speaker, has the Ministry deployed the 1,700 health workers recruited? If they have been deployed, which districts have they been deployed to?

Mr Speaker: The hon. Minister of Health may answer if he has the details.

Dr. Chituwo: Mr Speaker, this question is completely new and I need more time to have information for the entire country of 1,000 plus health institutions. I do not have the information at the moment.

I thank you, Sir.

_____________{mospagebreak}

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the Chair]

VOTE 07/01 – (Office of the Auditor-General – Headquarters – K44,451,063,139).

(Consideration resumed)

The Minister of Defence (Mr Mpombo): Madam Chairperson, the Auditor-General whose office is a public one is charged with the responsibility of promoting good governance, accountability and transparency in the utilisation of public resources. It is the duty of the Auditor-General to audit and give an assurance that all revenues are collected and brought to account and that the monies expended had been applied for the purposes for which they were appropriated and that the expenditure conforms to the authority that governs it.

Madam Chairperson, the principal functions, responsibilities and authority functions of the Auditor-General are set out in Article 121 of the Constitution of Zambia, the Finance Act No. 15 of 2004 and the Public Audit Act Cap. 378 of the Laws of Zambia. These statutes provide that the Auditor-General shall audit public accounts, accounts of statutory corporations and private institutions that receive Government subventions including donor funded projects. In this respect, the Auditor-General plays a major role in assisting the Public Accounts Committee to exercise its oversight role. The mission statement of the Office of the Auditor-General is to provide quality audit services to Government and other institutions in order to promote accountability and value for money in the management of public funds and other resources for the benefit of society. In order to operationalise the mission statement, the goal of the office has been to enhance accountability in the collection and utilisation of public funds and other resources in order to contribute to sustainable development.

Madam Chairperson, in line with the decentralisation policy of the Government, the Office of the Auditor-General has established offices in all the nine provinces. This is to ensure that all public resources being spent at both central Government and local authorities are adequately audited.

Madam Chairperson, in the last few years, the Government programmes have expanded and decentralised. For example, programmes, such as, road sector, agricultural investment, health and education reforms, water sector projects, constituency and youth development funds were introduced and expanded to districts and community levels throughout the country. Audits, therefore, need not be concentrated only at ministry headquarters. They have to follow the resources being spent at provincial, district and community levels.

In the Fifth National Development Plan (FNDP), priority sectors such as infrastructure, education, health, agriculture and tourism have been allocated huge sums of money that controlling officers at ministry headquarters and the public would require knowing how well they are going to be utilised. This kind of assurance in Zambia’s accountability process can only be facilitated through quality and effective audits. This calls for not only committed and qualified human resource, but increased funding to the office. it is through the Auditor-General’s report that the Government, the citizenry and other stakeholders are informed of the extent to which the programmes are being implemented and achieved. It is also through audit reports that weaknesses are revealed in order for corrective action to be taken.

As a key indicator in the FNDP, the Executive needs to take corrective action on the recommendation given by the Public Accounts Committee (PAC) on the Auditor-General’s report. Consequently, the office needs to increase its audit coverage. It is, therefore, critical that the budget of the Auditor-General should be favourably considered.

Madam Chairperson, during 2008, the office will concentrate on audit of the 2007 Government accounts focusing mainly on the economic, social and administrative sectors of the Government, statutory and value for money audits and audit of donor funded projects. The office aims at focusing its audit programmes towards areas that have increased Government expenditure. For example, the office will continue looking at Public Sector Reform Programme (PSRP), procurement procedures in the Government and all institutions receiving Government grants, subsidies and achievement levels of donor funded projects, especially those aimed at poverty reduction. The office will also look at the national debt, both domestic and foreign, and how it is managed.

Madam Chairperson, apart from the Government ministries and departments, the officers plan to audit a number of statutory bodies, such as, the Zambia Airways in Liquidation, Examinations Council of Zambia, National Housing Authority, Mpulungu Harbour Authority, Cyprus Amax Kansanshi Plc, Workers’ Compensation Fund Control Board, Chambeshi Water and Sewerage Company, Moto-Moto Museum, Food Reserve Agency, Times of Zambia and the University of Zambia just to mention, but a few.

Madam Chairperson, this strategy will provide the best audit coverage under the given resources and will help enhance accountability in the collection and utilisation of financial resources. It will also assist Government save money which will in turn be channelled towards programmes aimed at economic growth and consequently reduce poverty and improve the living standards of our people. These audit programmes can, however, only be achieved through increased resource allocation to the office.

Madam Chairperson, I seek the support of this House to pass the budget for the Office of the Auditor-General.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Milupi (Luena): Thank you, Madam Speaker, for giving me this opportunity to debate on the Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure for the Office of the Auditor-General.

Madam, let me say from the outset that in any organisation, the requirement to ensure that resources allocated are used for the intended purpose is paramount. There is no doubt whatsoever that if resources allocated are misapplied, a particular organisation will not go very far. This also applies on a national basis. The country is a large organisation that spends vast sums of money. Those that have gone before us have determined that the best way to ensure that there is accountability in the use of resources is to have an oversight body and, in the case of national resources, that oversight body is the Office of the Auditor-General. Any ngwee that is spent on the Office of the Auditor-General is money well spent. All of us can determine the return on that investment, but suffice to say, it is money well spent. Therefore, I would like to thank the Government for the increase in the Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure that I have seen in this year’s budget. From last year’s authorised expenditure of K34.4 billion, we an increased figure of K44.5 billion in this year’s Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure. This reflects an increase of 30 per cent. This is not what the Office of the Auditor-General wants in totality, but it is an indication that Government is beginning to be serious about the oversight function of this office. In fact, to underscore this point, the national increase in the total estimates from last year’s authorised amount of K12.7 trillion approximately, to this year’s estimates of K13.8 trillion reflects an increase of 8 per cent on the national basis against 30 per cent for Office of the Auditor-General. This shows that at long last we are beginning to focus on the oversight function to ensure that the resources in this country are spent on the issues that this House determines.

Madam Chairperson, let me state that the issues that keep coming every year in year out in the report of the Auditor-General continue to perplex those that understand that the main function of producing an audit report is to allow the auditee begin to change the way they do things. It is done to allow the auditee to use the audit report as a control tool on how they run their entity. Alas, in Zambia, we continue to see disturbing reports every year on the following:

(i) misapplication of resources;

(ii) non-retirement of imprest;

(iii) delayed banking; and

(iv) misuse of appropriation in aid.

This is on the expenditure side. Further, on capital expenditure, we see that many of the approved projects are not completed on time, to cost and in many times there is no quality. The Auditor-General has also revealed that can only be referred to as technical theft. This refers to where specifications on any project are not followed to the later. For example, if a road is specified that it will be a width of 6 metres and the contractor constructs it to 5 metres, the eye may not see the difference there, but over the length of the whole road, the money that will have been misused is colossal. These issues are brought out in the Auditor-General’s report.

Madam Chairperson, on the revenue side, we continue to be accosted by problems of under collection from the revenue authority. The issue that we keep closing our eyes to is the performance of the non-tax collecting ministries. There are huge sums in the Yellow Book that are supposed to be collected by non-tax collecting ministries, such as, the Ministry of Communications and Transport, Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Ministry of Home Affairs, Ministry of Lands and so on. This is an area where we continue to close our eyes to and yet it is an important component of the revenue side of the Government.

The other aspect of non-tax collecting agencies is the parastatals. Parastatals were not only set up to create employment or provide a service, but to show a return on the investment that we, the people of Zambia, have put in those parastatals. Each parastatal had a set of assets and we, as the shareholders, expect that there be a return.

Madam Chairperson, alas, over the last few years and, indeed many years, none of these parastatals operating in this country owned by the people has shown any return on that investment. I, therefore, urge the ministries superintending these parastatals to ensure that they put in place boards that will supervise these parastatals and ensure that we, the shareholders, get a return on those investments. It is pointless to put people who do not even know how set performance perimeters for the organisations for which they are board members. If we let our parastatals operate in such a manner and produce profit and declare dividends to the Government, our revenue side will grow. If we do that, the size of the national cake that we have to cutup will also correspondingly grow.

Mr Sing’ombe: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: Madam Chairperson, let me return to the functions of the Office of the Auditor-General. Having highlighted a number of anomalies that we see year in year out in the Auditor-General’s Report, let me say that what is lacking is not the capacity of the Auditor-General and her officers to highlight these anomalies, but the political will from those on your right to follow up actions to ensure that the issues that come up every year are attended to.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: Madam Chairperson, it is very frustrating that even before we look at next year’s Auditor-General’s Report, we know which ministries will be culprits because our culprits in this year’s report were a centre of attraction last year and the year before and the year before that and so on. Why do we have difficulties in making follow up actions to ensure that we set an example at a very minimum? 
I am also consoled this year that I have heard a lot of positive statements from the President even as reported in today’s newspaper from the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning and the hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services. I also heard some positive comments today from the Acting Leader of Government Business in the House. However, one of the premier consultants in business, Mr Harold Janin, said this, “Words are words. Only performance is reality.”

Mr Sing’ombe: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: Madam Chairperson, what lessons or how do organisations that run well make use of the internal and external audit reports? First of all, they get all the highlighted issues and ensure that they follow through and ensure that those that have fallen short of their responsibilities are taken to task. They are made to account for their misdeeds. That is why, in the first place, we have the audit report.

In our case, Madam Chairperson, if a controlling officer has an adverse audit report every year, it is only one of two things. Firstly, if the officer is involved in the misdoings that go on in the ministry in which case, the officer ought not to be in that ministry because he is dishonest. Secondly, if the officer is honest, then he is incompetent. When you have such officers, it means that they do not know what is going on in their ministry and, similarly, they ought not to be in the positions. 
`
Mr Sing’ombe: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: Those on your right ought to know that.

Madam Chairperson, the other aspect is the disconnection that we see between the political leadership and the Civil Service in terms of looking after the resources. It is as if the controlling officers are operating in isolation.

Mr I. Banda: Sosa!
Mr Milupi: They have more superiority than the political leadership. That is why I said, if you look at the revenue side, only two ministries so far in this House were able to report the progress that they have achieved in the way they collect revenue. These are the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: … and the Ministry of Lands that showed a positive increase in the revenue that was reported …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: … while all the other ministries were quiet. Do they not think that this is an important area for them to focus on? You cannot run an organisation and only focus on expenditure. You cannot run a shop and only focus on where you buy the items. You also have to focus on revenue. I ask all hon. Ministers on your right to ensure that when they come to this House, they should also focus on the revenue.

Madam Chairperson, they must also focus on expenditure. It is their political responsibility to ensure that the resources we give them to run their ministries are looked after properly. It is no longer acceptable for those who run ministries to keep quiet. They bring year in year out adverse reports. We would like to know what political leadership they provide. If they do this, those that have an oversight function including this House and the Office of the Auditor-General would be motivated to do even better. When we do that, this country will develop. If this is not done, the aims of this particular budget, which is a short-term plan; the aims of the Fifth National Development Plan (RNDP) which is the medium-term plan; the aims of the Vision 2030, which is a long-term plan will be, but a pipe dream.

Mr Milupi: Madam Chairperson, with these few remarks, I thank you.

Mr Milupi: Madam Chairperson, with these few remarks, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Madam Chairperson, I would like to thank you for according me this opportunity to contribute on this vote. I will be very brief in supporting the budget for the Office of the Auditor-General.

In so doing, I would like to say a few remarks. One of the issues is that, at times when I look at the Office of the Auditor-General, I always wonder what the office is there for. This is because I understand that prudent financial management can only be achieved with good audits and monitoring. I think that prudent financial management is all about transparency. Zambia needs proper accountability and transparency and this can only be supported with proper effective reports that will come from the Auditor-General’s Report.

In the past, we have seen an increase in the number of audits that the Auditor-General has carried out. However, my main concern is not the report, but what comes out of that report. This is because the report is made at the end of the year and no action seems to be taken. We have seen a lot of erring officers in these ministries year in year out who have continued to run those offices and no action has been taken while the executive has continued to make statements on corruption. Controlling officers do not follow procedures that are set. This becomes a serious concern to the people in the Opposition because we see that nothing is happening. We have seen a lot of misapplication of funds. Even if funds are approved, they are misapplied.

With regard to imprest, only a few culprits have been punished. If the current situation continues, then the Office of the Auditor-General will be almost irrelevant. Despite trying to extend or decentralise by having more offices in the provinces, without action being taken, that office will be irrelevant and people will not appreciate having an office like that. I urge the Government to strengthen this office so that the other watchdog institutions can work together with the Auditor-General’s Office so that action can be taken. If people need to be imprisoned, let them be imprisoned rather than seeing the same people year in year out misapplying and misappropriating funds and no action is taken. In order for us to strengthen this office, we need to see action being taken.

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze): Madam Chairperson, thank you for according me this opportunity to debate the vote pertaining to the Office of the Auditor-General.

Madam, on behalf of the people of Zambia, I would like to state that the people of Zambia are extremely unhappy with this Government. For the last 15 years, irregularities pertaining to financial operations in Government have been exhibited. In most instances, no action has been taken. I have no doubt in my mind that there is collusion in a number of cases. There is no way that issues of financial irregularities are laid bare or no action is taken. There is also no doubt in my mind that …

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: On a point of order, Madam.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Madam Chairperson, I rise on a very serious point of order. Is the hon. Member of Parliament for Monze in order to mislead the nation by saying that this Government is not doing anything on corrupt activities when the Former President and many other Permanent Secretaries are currently standing trial?

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order! The hon. Minister of Minister of Home Affairs has raised the concern on the speech of Hon. Mwiimbu who is saying that this Government is doing nothing about corruption. He has also cited cases that are currently in court over corruption. The ruling of the Chair is that the hon. Member on the Floor will take that into consideration as he continues to debate and hon. Members on my right will continue to indicate the means, methods and how this corruption scourge is being fault.

  May the hon. Member, please, continue.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, it is very unusual in this House to discuss matters that are in court. However, I would like to mention very categorically here that most of those cases that are in court were not raised through the Auditor-General’s Report.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam, those reports were raised as a result of the reports that came out from individuals, The Post Newspaper and other members of the public and not through the Auditor-General’s Report. The Auditor-General’s Office never captured those issues. I also want them to mention to me when they respond which Permanent Secretaries and hon. Ministers have been cited as a result of the Auditor-General’s Report.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, as far as I am concerned, there is none whatsoever.

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: All what I am saying is that there is evidence that is public on people munching public resources and no action has been taken.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: Order! The word, “munching” in this case is unacceptable. Can it please be replaced?

May he, please, continue.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, there are individuals currently in Government who are stealing pursuant to the penal code. In pursuant to the penal code, there is an offence called theft and there are a number of these public officials (pointing at Government Members) who are stealing contrary to the provisions of the penal code.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam, the Auditor-General’s Report is very clear.

The Chairperson: Order! Your finger is pointing somewhere. I hope that you do not imply people in this House. Speak through the Chair.

May he, please, continue.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, it is only that this time you are seated almost directly opposite my colleagues.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam, all what I am saying is that the reports that are coming out are nauseating and we are seen as if we are all irresponsible hon. Members of Parliament. These reports are brought for our consideration. We discuss every year the Auditor-General’s Report and recommendations are made, but no action is being taken. There are certain individuals in the ministries who are so arrogant and have no respect even for this House.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: They think that they are untouchable. These Permanent Secretaries are the ones who are always cited. Why should we allow a situation where individuals should ignore with impunity what this House says? Most of these Cabinet Ministers fear their Permanent Secretaries.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: They cannot even raise a finger against them because they know that noting can actually happen to them. Why should we allow such a situation to happen?

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, we received a report that more than K14 trillion was lost as a result of embezzlement in the Government. This year’s budget is K13 trillion, but the money that has been stolen pursuant to the provisions of the law is more than the budget. Why should we be claiming that we are poor and have no resources in this country when we allow civil servants to be living beyond their means? Civil servants are dollar millionaires in this country. They are living beyond their means. Most of the mansions which are being built in Lusaka belong to individual junior civil servants. We have the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) and the Auditor-General, but it appears as if their hands are tied. Why is it that our colleagues in Government fear their subordinates? They should be seen to be taking action. That is why we are looking forward to making sure that the new constitution which we are going to come up with will have power to deal with such issues.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: In this House, the people who are accountable for embezzlements or the wrong things happening in the country are not Permanent Secretaries. The Permanent Secretaries are not accountable to this House. It is our colleagues on your right who are accountable. They are the ones who report to this House. If they are failing to discipline their subordinates, then there is something wrong. We must take measures to ensure that they have power to discipline their subordinates. Our colleagues have no authority over their subordinates.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Even as we are debating now, most of the colleagues here do not know what goes on in their ministries.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: They are not given financial reports. Why should they be Chief Executives in the ministries when they have no authority? They must be given authority so that they are properly accountable before this House.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, our colleagues are not accountable and as a result, the situation is deplorable. In certain jurisdictions, the hon. Minister is the one who is accountable. If there is something wrong in the ministry, the hon. Minister must be held accountable, but alas, that is not the case here.

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam, we should not continue condoning indiscipline. Why should we allow a situation where certain individuals are cited and nothing happens? Billions of kwacha is attributed to having been stolen by wrong individuals and nothing is done about it.

Mrs Musokotwane: Shame!

Mr Mwiimbu: These individuals are driving Mercedez Benz and other expensive cars and yet, nothing is being done about it.

Madam Chairperson, as hon. Members of this House, let us stand to be counted. Let us ensure that the Auditor-General’s Report is implemented. In other jurisdictions, immediately the Auditor-General’s Report is released, it is referred to the Office of the Prosecutor-General which is in this case, the Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP) so that action is being taken concurrently. That is what we should be doing and that is one of the issues which we shall consider when we sit at the NCC.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: We cannot allow money that is intended for developmental projects in this country to be misused by some individuals. They are using State resources as personal petty cash. Why should we allow that? We should not condone, but be seen doing the right things for the nation. That is why we are being insulted in the press. We are being called names for failing to act on behalf of the people. We should be seen to be protecting the interests of the people.

Mrs Musokotwane: Hammer them!

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, I support the vote for the Auditor General. However, as the hon. Member for Luena indicated, it is frustrating to continue receiving and considering reports at a high cost, which are not being implemented. We look forward to the reports of the Auditor-General being implemented.

Interruptions

The Chairperson:  Order! We are supposed to have order so that, even when a point of order is raised, it is properly and clearly heard by the Chair. There is no need for us to continuously speak over the voice of the one debating. The Chair finds it difficult to follow. I believe that when you sometimes consult too loudly, the person next to you might want to hear, listen and follow the debate. Can hon. Members, please, keep order?

If you are not given the Floor, do not switch on your microphone. Currently, we are sharing this microphone and, therefore, do not switch it on until you are given the right to speak. I have not given anybody the Floor except Hon. Mwiimbu.

May he, Please, continue.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, in today’s The Post newspaper, which my sister will lay on the Table if she will speak, the Government is saying that they are not responsible for the financial mess in the Government. Who is then responsible? Who should be held accountable? Our colleagues have been …

Mr Mbewe: On a point of order, Madam.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Let me also remind the hon. Members that we are at a point where we want to listen. Therefore, unless it is a point on procedure, you may not ask the point of order because you have a right to debate. Therefore, do not raise and debate through points of order, unless it is on procedure, you can raise the point of order.

Mr Mbewe: Madam, I would like to thank the hon. Member of Monze who is debating so well. However, I want him to state clearly if it is true that Permanent Secretaries superintend over hon. Ministers…

Hon. UPND Members: Yes.

Mr Mbewe: … so that we can talk on behalf of our hon. Ministers who are voiceless.

Laughter

The Chairperson: Hon. Members of the House will agree with Chair that a lot of times what is called a point of order is not. The hon. Member for Chadiza wants to debate and raise issues by hiding behind a point of order.

Laughter

The Chairperson: There is no point of order.

May the hon. Member for Monze, please, continue.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam, when the point of order was raised, I was saying that in today’s The Post newspaper, there is an article attributed to the Chief Government Spokesman that Government should not to be blamed for corruption in Government.

Madam, the Government of the day has been given the mandate to superintend over the affairs of governance in this country. Financial issues are within the domain of their governance. When there are problems in the Government pertaining to finance, we will point fingers at subordinate officers who are not accountable to this House, but lay the blame on the Government of the day who are accountable to this House. In this case, it is the MMD Government which is in power. If they are failing to discipline officers in their ministries, we cannot start debating junior officers, as parliament, and we have been guided by Mr Speaker, but lay the blame on the hon. Ministers. That is why I was making a proposal due to the legal impotence on the part of my colleagues …

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: … in the constitution which is making them fail to discipline their subordinates. Hence, I recommend that we should come up at the NCC with a provision where hon. Ministers will have power to superintend over their subordinates.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: That way, they will be properly accountable for in this House. As it is now, we will continue to lament. If you ask these hon. Ministers outside this House, they will actually plead for their case.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: They are not able to take action against their subordinates.  Therefore, I to appeal the hon. Minister of Justice through this House to take up this matter very seriously. There is a lacuna in the laws of this country. Hon. Ministers have no Executive powers over their subordinates in the ministries. We have to change and ensure that there is accountability and the only colleagues who are accountable are those on your right side.

Madam Chairperson, with these few remarks, I rest my case.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! {mospagebreak}

The Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda, SC): Madam, I think it is important for us to appreciate some of the laws which we make in this august House.

Madam, I remember in the last sitting of this august House, we passed the Public Finance Management Bill. Under that Act, we have given certain powers to the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to appoint controlling officers who are supposed to be Permanent Secretaries and in some cases, directors. In the interest of maintaining order in the administration of the financial system, we passed laws in this House to the effect that certain functions will be vested in the Secretary to the Treasury, controlling officers and in officers who are specified in that particular law. Nowhere in that Act does it refer to hon. Ministers.

Now, of course, hon. Ministers have overall authority on their ministries, but in the interest of order as it has been advocated even in this House, there should be no political interference in certain aspects of administration of ministries.

Ms Mumbi: Question!

Mr Kunda: One of those is the management of funds. Management of funds should be done in such a way that particular officers are responsible. You cannot make the whole ministry responsible for funds. You must define who is responsible for what responsibility.

Madam Chairperson, when it comes to discipline of officers, we know what the law is. There are conditions of service, regulations relating to public officers and the Public Service Commission which is responsible for issues of discipline. That is the legal position which I am explaining.

Now, hon. Ministers are controlled and guided by law. Hon. Ministers are at the receiving end. When they stray into certain areas which they are not allowed by law, we get a bashing from this House. If a hon.  Minister is mentioned in the Auditor-General’s Report to have directed, for example, use of funding in a particular way without following tender procedure, which is law, under what law does the hon. Minister come in when it comes to tender procedures? Therefore, responsibility to engage in public procurement is vested in certain structures which are defined by law.

Mr Ntundu: On point of order, Madam.

The Chairperson: Order! I think your point of order must of life and death because the hon. Minister is on the Floor. If there are things that you want to raise against the explanation of Government position, you should be able to debate rather than interrupt the hon. Minister. Therefore, that point of order is not given.

May the hon. Minister, please, continue.

Mr Kunda: Madam Chairperson, this is a Government of laws and believes in the rule of law. We do not want to apply jungle law in this country.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kunda: We must follow the civilised systems of governing this country.
 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kunda: Madam Chairperson, what we have done is to deliberately strengthen the Auditor-General’s Office so that we can unearth what is going on. You must give us credit.

 Hon. Government Members:  Hear, hear!

Mr Kunda: We have been strengthening this office from 2002 to date and so far, the Auditor-General’s Office is ticking. That is why we have, for example, the investigating agencies like the Anti-Corruption Commission and the Drug Enforcement Commission which have been doing a very good job. They have been working on cases of misappropriation of funds. Some of them arise from the Auditor-General’s Reports.

Madam Chairperson, unfortunately, there were some misguided view suggesting that hon. Ministers are voiceless. We are the people making and strengthening the Auditor-General’s Office. We are the people who have introduced the NCC which you are talking about …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kunda: … which will look into all aspects of governance in this country. We have credible governance programmes under the Fifth National Development Plan and Vision 2030.

Mr Kunda: Madam Chairperson, I think I have made my point beyond reasonable doubt.

 I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
 Mr Syakalima (Siavonga):  Madam, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the vote on the Floor of the house.

Madam Chairperson, I think the hon. Minister of Justice has missed a point and that is the tragedy of missing a point.

 Mr Ntundu: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: Madam Chairperson, the advise that came from Hon. Mwiimbu was for them to take it and not be on the defence.

Mr Hamududu: Exactly.

Mr Syakalima:  The problem we have with hon. Ministers is that when they are tasked to do certain things, they want to be on their defence and this is the problem literally on all hon. Ministers …

Hon. UPND Members: Yes.

Mr Ntundu: No, a few of them.

Mr Syakalima: … including the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning.

 Laughter

 Mr Syakalima: He always wants to be on his defence. You are not on trial.

 Laughter

Mr Syakalima: The hon. Minister of Home Affairs who is my uncle is also on his defence. Let me just assure you that no arrest will made on you and there will be …
 Laughter

Mr Syakalima: … no prosecution made on you.

Laughter

Mr Syakalima: However, the most important issue is that this country is running on its knees. There is corruption which you can easily see.

Madam Chairperson, for several years, the Auditor-General’s report has been reporting how junior clerks misuse funds even if you are saying that you want to follow laws and yet there is a breakdown in the system. The entire system has broken down because you are unable to control junior officers. You must admit this fact and tell the truth. I would not even give you any more power because you already have power as hon. Ministers. However, the most dangerous thing is that you are very incompetent.

Laughter

Mr Syakalima: Why?

Laughter

Mrs Musokotwane: Hammer!

Mr Mwiimbu: Yes!

Mr Syakalima: There are those of you who exhibit a little bit of competency. However, collectively, you are all incompetent.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: You must stop blaming the system. Even if you do, people are stealing money for the country. Which law?

Mr Kanyanyamina: Which law?

Mr Mwiimbu: Meanwhile you are watching!

Mr Syakalima: You are watching.

Mr Kanyanyamina: Bebe!

Mrs Musokotwane: Hammer!

Mr Syakalima: There is no need for you to hide behind the law.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: For instance, if somebody pockets K4.5 billion and declares that he or she has built a bridge at Mbesuma, can you say that he or she is following the law? Which law is that?

Hon. Opposition Members: What law?

Mr Syakalima: Which law? Are the Zambians going to believe you?

Madam Chairperson, let me sound a warning to these people in Government that they shall find themselves one day on trial if they continue hiding behind the law.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: As of now, we are just giving you free advice. Do not be on your defence. You are making the Auditor-General’s Office weak. Do not forget that they are human beings like you. One day, they will give up since this will be routine. They will be producing reports. However, since they still want to defend in this way, action should be taken.

Madam Chairperson, controlling officers are appointed by the President and so, they should know their limits. For example, one thief fled the country.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Syakalima: According to the Auditor-General’s report, a clerk ran away with K1 billion and you are busy defending him. Just admit that something has gone amiss.

Mr Lubinda: Hammer!

Mr Syakalima: If so, let us do something about it.

In my opinion, I see your defence in two ways. You are either dangerously incompetent or dangerous cowards.

Laughter

The Chairperson: Order! The Chair feels that the use of those words directly referring to the Government Ministers is unparliamentary. You cannot use such words directly and call them cowards. That is unparliamentary. Will the hon. Member for Siavonga withdraw immediately?

Laughter

Mr Syakalima: Madam Chairperson, I withdraw the phrase “dangerously cowards” and replace with “dangerously weak.”

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: Yes!

Mr Syakalima: You are dangerously weak. You can imagine the meaning of the word “weakness,” which is allowed.

Laughter

Mr Syakalima: I really feel for you colleagues. I only wish we had a better system.

Madam Chairperson, through you, I fear for the windfall taxes which will come from the mines. I fear for it when it comes because they are already preparing themselves on how they are going to swallow that money.

Laughter

The Chairperson: Order! The Chair would like to guide the hon. Member on the Floor whom the Chair believes exactly knows which words to use appropriately. You will not continuously be in defiance of our rules and use words you have chosen to use today. Can you withdraw those words, please?

Interruptions

Mr Syakalima: Madam Chairperson, I withdraw the word “swallow” but I am becoming limited in my vocabulary.

Laughter

Mr Syakalima: Now …

The Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1045 hours until 1100 hours.

Mr Syakalima: Madam Chairperson, when business was suspended, I was saying that the people in Government should not be on their defence because the people they entrust these moneys to are not saints. I am not sure whether they are kapitaos or supervisors because at the end of the day, people will still blame this Government. Therefore, it is your duty, just as it is my responsibility as a Zambian, to speak on behalf of other people. Hence, I will not allow a system whereby a few individuals continuously plunder the resources of this country. We all know them, but I do not know why we hide them. What chasm is there between them and us?

Madam, whenever these witnesses appear before the Public Accounts Committee, they appear cheeky. That is why it was not business last year as usual because they have taken us for granted because no action has been taken against them even if they appear before Public Accounts Committee. We are not going to allow that. Ministers do not appear before us, but controlling officers who utilise the money do. They are very cheeky when they appear before the Public Accounts Committee. Sometimes they wonder whether we think or not as Members of Parliament. They think that politicians are just stone throwers and know nothing. However, we have reminded them that we come from different walks of life and so, we are not going to allow that. Personally, as long as I remain a Member of Parliament and a member of the Pubic Accounts Committee, I do not want anybody to come and sit before us and think that they are cleverer than us.

Mr Munaile: Grade 7 drop outs!

Mr Syakalima: Madam, as we struggle to negotiate or put up a law to get this money from the mines, we must also struggle to make sure that this money goes for the intended purposes. Otherwise, this money will go into people’s pockets and the people will blame us. If nothing is done, they will blame us. If, for instance, we have a lot of money in the coffers, they will also prepare how to get this money. I do not know what formula or devise to use to avoid this, but we must find a formula for this. I can assure you that I have been thinking about this for the last 7 years. We cannot allow a few people amassing wealth.

I will say this very passionately.

When you talk about a flood disaster, there is no money. If you read the Auditor-General’s Report, you will find that in K14.7 trillion went into people’s pockets for 5 years. They build mansions and buy cars that you have never heard about or seen. Therefore, we must find a formula. My emphasise colleagues is that we are here together. The other day I said that there are 150 hon. Members plus eight nominated hon. Members carrying a huge burden of 12 million people and there are a few people that you can easily point at. The Head of State must be reminded that he is making the work of the Auditor-General’s Office very difficult.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: This is because Ministers and Permanent Secretaries are appointed by His Excellency the President. Then, Directors are appointed by whoever is below the Permanent Secretary. When these three trees are reviewed, what do you expect a Minister or Permanent Secretary appointed by the Head of State to do?

Hon. Opposition Members: Nothing.

Mr Syakalima: What can they do? I ask you, what can you do?

Laughter

Mr Syakalima: They will literally do nothing. They are in most cases at the mess and the hon. Ministers appear as if they were not appointed by the President. The Permanent Secretaries and Directors feel that they are appointed by the President more than the Ministers.

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes.

Mr Syakalima: These are stack realities.

Mrs Musokotwane: Hammer!

Mr Syakalima: Madam Chairperson, as far as we are concerned, we are not going to allow that though the President is allowed by constitutional law that he appoints Permanent Secretaries. We also have a law here. We shall make sure that we continuously say these things up until the Head of State realises that when he appoints the Permanent Secretaries, Directors and Ministers, they are not above anybody. We know what happens in the ministries. The Permanent Secretaries decide what type of cellular phones to buy for hon. Ministers.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: When they are given imprest, they decide whether to give the hon. Minister or not and so they have to dance to the tune of a person who is called a controlling officer …

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Syakalima: … and then behind that, the country is not benefiting anything.

Mr Nsanda: Yah!

Mr Syakalima: We are not going to allow that. However moribund you are as hon. Ministers, we are not going to allow Permanent Secretaries …

The Chairperson: Order! Can you withdraw the word “moribund”, please?

May he, please, continue.

Laughter

Mr Syakalima: Madam Chairperson, I withdraw the word “moribund”. Whoever you are …

Laughter

Mr Syakalima: What I am trying to emphasise, Madam Chairperson, is that we are not going to allow Public Service workers …

Hon. Opposition Member: Who?

Mr Syakalima: I remove the word “servant” because sometimes when you say a servant, they may appear to be like servants, but they are the ones who are above the masters.

Mrs Musokotwane: They are the masters.

Laughter

Mr Syakalima: However, the Public Service workers must do the work that they were employed for and Parliament at least for this year and the remaining 4 years will make sure that culprits are brought to book.

Hon. Government Members: Who?

Mr Syakalima: You interact with them and so you should go and tell them hon. Members of Parliament are annoyed.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Laughter {mospagebreak}

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Magande): Thank you, Madam Chairperson, for giving me this opportunity to make a contribution on this debate.

Madam Chairperson, I am aware that the overall motion is mine, but because the Auditor-General’s Office is more or less under my office and so I thought I should be given this opportunity. I will definitely not get involved in the other or many of the other votes, especially when I know Hon. Kasongo wants to get at me. I will leave that for him and other people who want to attack me.

Madam Chairperson, let me say that at the way the debate is going on now, I think is just delaying the passing of this vote.

Interruptions

Mr Magande: We heard from the Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee that this year, the Auditor-General’s estimates have gone up by 30 per cent. The people that decide on this are not civil servants, but Cabinet which brings the budget here. Why, after we have realised the importance of this office and allocated money in the budget which has only gone up by 11 per cent and 30 per cent to the Office of the Auditor-General, do we become now incompetent? We become subject of ridicule. Our job as Cabinet is to look at the priorities of the country. Look at the different spending ministries and allocate the limited resources that we are raising for the orderly manner of running this country. Why should somebody spend time here saying that we are incompetent and do not care?

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Mr Magande: Yes, how do you want us to show that we care?

Hon. Opposition Members: By arresting them.

Mr Magande: Madam Chairperson, arresting wrong doers is done by the law enforcement wings.

Interruptions

Mr Magande: It is not for civil servants, politicians or hon. Ministers to arrest wrongdoers. Hon. Members will note when we come to the vote for the police that there is an increase in allocation from K332 billion to K398 billion. The amount has gone up by 20 per cent. We want them to work in an environment where they can keep law and order.

Hon. Government Members: Yes.

Mr Magande: The business of arresting wrongdoers whether they are obeying traffic laws or the Public Finance Act or not is for the police.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah! You tell them what to do.

Mr Magande:  We have allocated money for the police to be effective and so I do not understand why there is this animosity against a Cabinet that is transparent. The offences reported in the Auditor-General’s Report were committed 10 years ago when we were not here.

Mr Nsanda: We should go and check.

Mr Magande: Yes, go and check if there was a report in 1999 from the Auditor-General which revealed as much as this report does.

Mr Nsanda interjected.

Mr Magande: We have managed to reinforce the Office of the Auditor-General with personnel, transport, offices and technology so that they can help us to reveal the weaknesses of how we are operating this Government.

Hon. Government Member: Tell them.

Mr Magande: That is our role. Somebody said that we are not doing our job. What is the job of the Minister?

In this report, Madam Chairperson, the only place where it mentions a Minister is on one page and that Minister is the Minister of Finance and National Planning. I am the only Minister mentioned in the report by portfolio because I appoint one chief controlling officer who heads the treasury and appoints the rest of the controlling officers. How do you join the quarrel with the Minister of Finance and National Planning and say that even the other Ministers are incompetent? How can Hon. Syakalima say Professor Lungwangwa is incompetent and yet he is the one who made him pass and come here?

Laughter

Mr Magande: How does a lecturer become incompetent after he has made him what he is? Anywhere in life, teachers must be respected.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Magande: If Hon. Syakalima wanted to call me incompetent because I did not teach him, he should have excluded his former teacher, Professor Lungwangwa.

Laughter

Mr Magande: Madam Chairperson, would it also be in order to say that because Professor Lungwangwa has joined a different profession now when he was elected by thousands of people who saw his competence and that he has now become more incompetent because of the system?

Hon Government Members: Yes!

Mr Magande: That system has been created by this House. We have laws. Like the hon. Minister of Justice said, we will not run this Government in a haphazard manner.

Madam Chairperson, let me advise those on your left side that if they are trying to get into Government, they should not come here and decide what cell phones and cars to buy because that is not how public resources work in a government.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Magande: It is not my responsibility to choose what car to buy in the ministry. That is left to the organisation in charge of tender procedure and the controlling officer.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Magande: Yes, the controlling officer has to decide. That is why I am trying to give them valuable advice. If they are waiting to come into Government and decide to be buying Mercedes Benz when the system does not allow, they will not do that because even if I will be on your left that time, I will stop them.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Magande: Yes. I will stop you because you will mess up our resources. 
Therefore, let us agree that this is a very important office and Government has brought the budget here to re-enforce this important office. On the basis of that, why do we not go ahead and approve the budget so that the Auditor-General can do her work?

Madam Chairperson, right now in the courts of law, we have forty-eight cases of officers who are being prosecuted because of mismanaging public resources. That information cannot be known by Hon. Mwiimbu because when he gets to court, as a lawyer, he defends criminals.

Laughter

Mr Magande: In fact, I am not sure whether he will defend the criminals I am taking to court. It can be likely and so, we cannot know all that information. When we write an action taken report, we indicate which cases are in the courts of law and which ones are not and that report comes before this House. Hon. Mwiimbu or Hon. Syakalima should look at the action taken report presented and see whether there is a single case that has been cited and taken to court in the Auditor-General’s Report.

Two days ago, perhaps Saki’s (referring to Mr Sikota) relative in Livingstone, a policeman, committed suicide because he was being taken to court for corruption and misappropriation of funds.

Mr Syakalima: Aah!

Mr Magande: Yes. Did you not read about it two days ago?

Laughter

Mr Magande: It happened. However, our colleagues are saying that we are not doing anything when other people are committing suicide because of being chased by the law enforcement organs.
Laughter

Mr Magande: What else are we supposed to do?

Laughter

Mr Magande: Madam Chairperson, governments anywhere in the world are made of different arms and operate on the basis of trust. We cannot just say that everybody is mistrusted in the Government. You cannot stand and say that all the civil servants are not good. When we have a bad seed amongst us, we should remove that seed. To identify a bad seed, we now have an organ which the Government is re-enforcing.

I thank you, Madam.

The Chairperson: Order! The Chair, like most of you, has been listening to the debate. If we have genuinely followed the debate, you will agree with me that we are actually speaking about the same points, through and through. If somebody has a very different point, I may give one more opportunity.

Mr Kasongo (Bangweulu): Madam Chairperson, first of all, I must say that what has been ignored by our colleagues on your right is the procedure involved whenever we debate the Auditor-General’s Report in this House. I would like to carry my colleagues along so that they are able to understand why we have raised concerns, as hon. Members of Parliament on this side.

Whenever the Auditor-General prepares a report, first of all, it is seen by the Head of State before it is even tabled in this House. At that point, the Head of State would know the weaknesses that are contained in the same report. Subsequently, the report is tabled in this House through the normal procedure and the Public Accounts Committee sits. Controlling officers are invited to come and clarify the same issues which are contained in the Auditor-General’s Report. Finally, the Public Accounts Committee tables the same report in this House and recommendations are made to the Executive. When the recommendations are made to the Executive, it is at that point that we expect Cabinet to begin taking action on the recommendations that are made by the Public Accounts Committee.

What comes out clearly is the question of lack of political will. We are not saying that all civil servants committed these crimes. I am happy that the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning has come out very clearly to state that bad eggs should not be allowed to contaminate the Civil Service. I think that is our concern. When there is political will at all levels of Government, obviously all these bad eggs would be sorted out.

If I have to declare interest, I was privileged to serve as Chairperson of the Public Accounts Committee for three consecutive years. What came out very clearly during that period was that you would make a far reaching recommendation against an officer who may have been found wanting, only to learn the following day that such an officer has been promoted. That makes a mockery on the part of the officers who have done extremely well to bring to the surface this culprit. We expect that when such recommendations are made by the Public Accounts Committee and also assisted by the same report, action must be taken as quickly as possible. When we refer to K13.7 trillion, hon. Ministers, we should record our concerns because that is a lot of money.

Madam Chairperson, if I can also declare interest that I was a Permanent Secretary and I will give you a narration of a very simple case of what happened to me. I was appointed Permanent Secretary in the Ministry of Home Affairs and subsequently transferred to the Ministry of Energy and Water Development. When I reported at the Ministry of Energy and Water Development, I was erroneously given what was known as settling-in allowance of about K1.2 million. I did not know anything and I accepted that amount of money. After querying the chief accountant, he said that I was entitled to the same. The Auditor-General was able to capture that weakness and noted that I was not entitled because it was a mere transfer from the Ministry of Homes Affairs to the Ministry of Energy and Water Development and, therefore, I was supposed to pay back that money.

When that case was brought to my attention by my colleague, Dr Sichinga, who is now Permanent Secretary at the Office of the Vice-President, I had to pay back the money. I had no choice because he proved to me that, in fact, I was not even entitled. Even the Auditor-General was able to prove to me that it was not my entitlement. Therefore, what we are saying is that what belongs to the State must go back to the State.

In this House, we have been talking about roads which are impassable. Even the hon. Ministers who are elected have been confronted with the same problems in their respective constituencies. If few individuals are allowed to continue misappropriating or stealing funds and so forth and then you stand up to defend them, then we are killing ourselves. All of us would like to see that Zambia moves forward.  I think that is what we are asking for.

There must be political will on the part of the Government of the day. That is our humble request. In the absence of political will, I am afraid the same problems that we have been facing all of us will continue to be there. In the final analysis, people out there will judge you correctly. They would say that during the time when you were privileged to lead others for10 years, you did nothing. Is that the legacy that you want to leave?

Hon. Member: Yes!

Mr Kasongo: I am sure you would like to move out as proud people. I appeal to you to take action based on the recommendations of the Auditor-General and also the Public Accounts Committee that there must be political will. We should be able to sort out the bad eggs from the Civil Service.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mpombo: Madam Chairperson, this issue has been discussed with a lot of gusto.

Laughter

Mr Mpombo: Firstly, I want to assure the House that the Office of the Auditor-General will continue to enjoy unsettled authority in its execution of their functions. The Government is very committed to this process and will ensure that we give the office necessary support it deserves.

The Office of the Auditor-General in Zambia is a shining model in this continent given the amount of donor support. The donors can only support something that they see is worthwhile. It is getting this kind of support because of the kind of work it is doing which has been highly appreciated.

The increased allocation is also Government’s demonstration and commitment to the office. However, there have been some sweeping allegations against the Government and I want to say that most of them have been without substance. I want to assure you that the Government will not sweep anything under the carpet.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mpombo: We are committed and have made a public commitment and will continue to do that. It is important that colleagues that have information are free to come and see us so that the process moves forward.

In terms of the operation, the Office of the Auditor-General will from this year start producing reports that will show outstanding cases. They will be producing reports every year by showing cases that have not been dealt with so that there are no gaps in the fight against the missions of the Government resources.

Madam Chairperson, I want to comment on what the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning said that serious cases involving misuse of public funds are reported to the police even before the report is tabled here. Hon. Members of Parliament are free to visit the Office of the Auditor-General so that they are given information. Therefore, do not hesitate. The Office of the Auditor-General is a public office. Hon. Members of Parliament are free to go and approach at any time the Office of the Auditor-General.

In conclusion, on the question of imprest, Government does take a lot of serious steps. When Parliament, for example, was dissolved 2 years ago, hon. Ministers and public workers who owed imprest had their outstanding imprest deducted from their gratuities. Those are steps that the Government takes. Even now, there are measures to ensure that imprest is retired.

The function of the Auditor-General is a very important one. When things have been exposed, for example, it is a health sign because it shows that this office is working. Recently in the House of Commons in the United Kingdom, the Auditor-General’s Report exposed Members of Parliament who had employed their relatives to handle parliamentary issues. In France, the biggest scandal worth 7.5 billion euros was unearthed through this exercise. The same goes for corporations in the United States of America. These were exposed by audit performance, but this did not mean that those countries were deeply embedded in corrupt issues.

Madam Chairperson, I want to thank all hon. Members who have contributed on this vote. We are all members of one House. I have seriously taken note of all the issues that have been raised. Please, let us move together as one.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 07/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 07/10 ─ (Office of the Auditor-General ─ Mongu Provincial Office ─ K750,001,824).

Ms Imbwae (Lukulu West): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 2, Activity 02 – Preparation of Work Plans and Budgets – K22,458,880. I notice that there is a reduction. Last year, K37,747,000 was approved and K22,458,880 has been provided in the budget this year. Does the reduction mean that the activity is not going to be carried out?

Mr Mpombo: Madam Chairperson, the provision is required to meet costs of preparation of budgets and budgets performance review. Costs include conference stationery and fuel among others. The reduction is due to the reduced period in which the preparation of work plans will be completed.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Mukanga: Madam Chairperson, may I also have clarification on Programme 1, Activity 01 – Salaries Division I – K198,255,948. I have noticed that there has been a reduction in salaries. I do not know what is happening. Are you reducing the labour force or not?

Mr Mpombo: Madam Chairperson, the provision is intended to meet payment of salaries for Division I officers. The decrease is due to the correction on salary scales that was used to estimate the amount payable to Division I officers and removal of officers that had either been transferred to other stations or were no longer in employment.
I thank you, Madam.

Vote 07/10 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 07/13 ─ (Office of the Auditor-General – Lusaka District Office – K328,835,192).

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 7, Activity 01 – Audit of Client 1329/05 - K28,211,500, Activity 02 – Audit of Client 1380 -K24,386,500, Activity 03 - Audit of Client 1346 – K27,256,000 and Activity 04 - Audit of Client 1389 – K27,056,000. I notice that there are four clients to be audited this year. Can I find out from the Acting Leader of Government Business how long it will take the Auditor-General’s Office to audit all the institutions in the Lusaka District that ought to be audited, particularly given the fact that the Auditor-General’s ambition is also to audit local authorities? With the rate of four per year, how long will it take to audit all the institutions?

Mr Mpombo: Madam Chairperson, the function will be carried out within the financial year.

I thank you.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order! No conversation or dialogue.

Mr Chota (Lubansenshi): Madam Chairperson, I would like to find out why all the districts have been given four clients each.

Mr Mpombo: Madam Chairperson, this was what could be accommodated within the confines of the budget for this year.

I thank you, Madam.

Vote 07/13 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/14 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/15 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/17 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 07/18 – (Office of the Auditor-General – Kasama District Office – K349,070,096).

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, Kasama District has more than twenty Government institutions which all require to be audited. Given that, for 2008, the Auditor-General’s Office has only been provided money for four out of those twenty institutions, could I find out from the Acting Leader of Government Business whether the intention of the Government is that the audit circle per institution should be 5 years before it is re-audited.

The Chairperson: Maybe before we go on, the questions that we ought to ask at this level are clarifications on the figures and not policy. We had the time to debate the policy of each department or ministry. For now, it is clarification on the actual figures. Maybe the Acting Leader of Government Business in the House has something to say on this.

Mr Mpombo: Madam Chairperson, the professional advice from the Office of the Auditor-General is that this programme will be executed within the financial year.

I thank you, Madam.

Vote 07/18 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/19 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 07/20 – (Office of the Auditor-General – Solwezi District Office – K349,070,096).

Mr Mukanga: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1, Activity 01 – Salaries Division I – K104,757,576 and Activity 02 – Salaries Division II – K101,174,520. I am comparing this with the vote which we have just passed. The budget seems to be the same. The difference is on the salary for Division II officers, but the budgets are the same. It means that the people in Mansa are doing the same job as the people in Solwezi. Why should we have more people in Solwezi on a Division II salary doing the same job as the people in Mansa?
Mr Magande: Madam Chairperson, we have different categories of officers in some of the stations. That is why there are these differences and not that the work is different. We may have a senior auditor in one place, while we may not be able to recruit an officer for the other office and so there might be obviously a vacancy. That is why there are all these variations. The job of auditing is the same in Mansa and Solwezi.

Thank you, Madam.

Vote 07/20 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/21 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 08 – (Cabinet Office – Of the President – Headquarters ─ K141,272,361,649).

Mr Mpombo: Madam Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to present Cabinet Office Budget for the year 2008.

Cabinet Office is the highest administrative office in the civil service responsible for co-ordinating the effective implementation of Government policies, systems and procedures and the monitoring and evaluation of the overall performance of the public service for efficient administration of Government business. Cabinet Office comprised of the following:

(i) Office of the Secretary to the Cabinet supported by two Deputy Secretaries to the Cabinet responsible for administration and finance and economic development;

(ii) Administration Division;

(iii) Management Development Division;

(iv) Policy Analysis and Co-ordination Division;

(v) Gender in Development; and

(vi) Office of the Former Presidents.

From the foregoing, it can be envisaged that responsibilities for Cabinet Office cut across most of the Government ministries and institutions in relation to supervision and influencing policy implementations in Government. It is the policy centre for Government administration and management.

Madam Chairperson, in order to effectively fulfil its mandate, Cabinet Office is guided by the mission statement outlined below:

“To co-ordinate the formulation and implementation of Government policies, programmes, systems and procedures and monitor and evaluate the overall performance of the Public Service for the efficient and effective management of Government business.”

The Office of the Secretary to the Cabinet is responsible for ensuring that Cabinet Office achieves the above mission statement.

In the context of the Public Service Reform Programme (PRSP) and the Fifth National Development Plan (FNDP), Cabinet Office seeks to improve delivery of public services with regard to policy formulation, implementation and interpretation as well as monitoring and evaluation. This will be achieved through the implementation of the objectives as reflected in the Cabinet Office 2006 - 2010 Strategic Plan. The objectives are operationalised through well designed departmental work plans in order to enhance performance and delivery of public services.

Madam Chairperson, the status of Cabinet Office and its functions are derived from the Constitution of the Republic of Zambia. Cabinet Office operates directly under the Office of the President of the Republic of Zambia. Article 50 of the Constitution stipulates the functions of Cabinet Office whereas Article 53(2) stipulates the functions and responsibilities of the Secretary to the Cabinet.

The Article provides that the Secretary to the Cabinet shall be:

(a) the head of Public Service and shall be responsible to the President for securing the general efficiency of the Public Service.

(b) have charge of Cabinet Office and be the responsible, in accordance with instructions given to him by the President for arranging the business for, and keeping the minutes of the Cabinet and for conveying decisions made in Cabinet to the appropriate authorities; and

(c) have such other functions as may be prescribed by or under an Act of Parliament or as the President may direct.

Madam Chairperson, it is evident from the aforementioned provisions in the constitution that the Secretary to the Cabinet has central co-ordinating responsibilities. These include the co-ordination of effective implementation of Government policies, systems and procedures, monitoring and evaluation of the overall performance of the public service for the efficient administration of Government. In addition, Cabinet Office takes responsibility for adhoc commissions and new functions that may not have been allocated to any ministry. It also considers appeals arbitrates between contending ministries and agencies.

Madam Chairperson, as earlier stated, Cabinet Office has the following divisions, namely:
 
Office of the Secretary to the Cabinet

The office of the Secretary to the Cabinet provides support to the Secretary to the Cabinet and his two deputies in their executive management of Government business. The office also plays an important role in articulating Government policies and implementation modalities in order to secure the general efficiency of the Public Service.

Administration Division

Madam Chairperson, this is responsible for the overall management of Cabinet Office by providing adequate human, financial, material and other resources to the Office of the Secretary to the Cabinet and all other divisions in Cabinet Office in line with their operational requirements. In addition, the division facilitates the conduct of state functions and presidential local and foreign travels, guides provincial and district administration as well as the rest of the public sector on policy interpretation and implementation.

Madam Chairperson, the Administration Division is also responsible for sourcing of funds for the maintenance and servicing of the Presidential Aircraft in order to facilitate the President’s local and foreign travels. However, the maintenance of the aircraft is under the jurisdiction of the Office of the President, Special Division. Accordingly, the budget estimates for these purposes have been provided for under Cabinet Office Vote.

Madam, Zambia is this year going to host the Commonwealth Partnership for Technology Management Conference. The conference will be attended by twenty Heads of States and Government, local and foreign business chief executives as well as other delegates to be invited from local organisations. In order, therefore, to facilitate the hosting of this conference, Government has provided an appropriate budget line under the Cabinet Office Vote called Commonwealth Partnership for Technology Management Conference.

Madam, the hon. Members may wish to know that the Commonwealth Partnership for Technology Management was launched at the Commonwealth Heads of Governments Meeting in Auckland, New Zealand  in November, 1995. One of its principle objectives is to promote a co-operative global approach to the harnessing of technology for development through public and private sector partnerships. This has led to the concept of smart partnership, discussed internationally, regionally and nationally in a series of dialogues designed to explore new grounds for development.

Management Development Division

Madam Chairperson, this is responsible to the Secretary to the Cabinet for providing internal management consultancy services to all Government ministries and institutions. Specifically, the division facilitates the development and review of strategic plans, organisation structures and staffing levels, job descriptions, organisational and individual work plans and performance appraisal systems.

In that regard, the division has, in 2008, planned to undertake the following activities:

(i) monitoring and evaluation of strategic plans called organisation structure and performance management;

(ii) review of strategic plans;

(iii) performance audits;

(iv) development of strategic plans;

(v) monitoring and evaluation of strategic plans;

(vi) facilitating the adaptation of generic strategic plans and organisation of structures for district administration and local authorities in the context of the national decentralisation plan;

(vii) organisation structure right sizing review;

(viii) review of work processes, systems and procedures;

(ix) installing performance management packaging;

(x) job description writing and review;

(xi) development of citizens’ charter; and

(xii) development of citizens’ charter training manual.

Madam Chairperson, Government launched a Public Service Management (PSM) component of the Public Service Reform Programme on the 22nd November, 2006. The main objective of the Public Service Management is to enhance service delivery by improving management systems in Public Service. This is intended to be achieved through the implementation of four sub-components of the PSM, namely, right sizing, pay reform, service delivery improvement and payroll management and establishment control.

Madam, the support for the Public Service Management Project has been provided by the Department for International Development (DFID), Swedish International Development Agency (SIDA) and International Development Agency (IDA). The Management Development Division will continue co-ordinating the implementation of the Public Service Management component of the Public Service Reform Programme through the Public Service Management Project Unity as contained in the Activity Based Budget for 2008.

Policy Analysis and Co-ordination Division

Madam Chairperson, this is responsible for co-ordinating and effectively managing the policy process in order to enhance Government capacity to develop and implement quality policies. In order to execute the above responsibilities, the division has planned to undertake the following activities as contained in this year’s Activity Based Budget:

(a) management of Cabinet and Cabinet Committee meetings in order to facilitate the smooth operation of the Cabinet System;

(b) orientation of the management of Cabinet Memorandum;

(c) monitoring and evaluating the implementation of Cabinet decisions;

(d) management of the policy process;

(e) dissemination of procedures and guidelines of the policy process to ministries, provinces;

(f) analysis of Cabinet memorandum; and

(g) revision of the Cabinet Handbook and guide to writing national policy documents.

Gender in Development Division

This division is responsible for co-ordinating the implementation of the National Gender Policy, which was approved by Cabinet in March, 2000. The division is also charged with the task of liaising and networking at national, regional and international levels. In addition, the Gender in Development Division (GIDD) monitors and evaluates the implementation of policies and programmes to ensure gender responsive development. In this regard, therefore, the 2008 Activity Based Budget of the Gender in Development Division will support the following activity areas:

(i) mainstreaming gender into all sector policies;

(ii) capacity building among the stakeholders in order to improve gender analytical skills and techniques of critical partners in the process of mainstreaming Gender in Development Plans, programmes and projects;

(iii) monitoring and evaluation of the implementation of gender and development programmes;

(iv) development and implementation of advocacy strategy on the economic empowerment of women as stated in the Fifth National Development Plan;

(v) dissemination of information related to gender including research findings, legislation on gender based violence and HIV/AIDS prevalence; and

(vi) reviewing of customary laws in order to ensure conformity with statutory laws and other international practices.

Office of the Former Presidents

Madam Chairperson, the Office of former Presidents was established in 1993 through an Act No. 40 of 1993. The Act provides for the pension and other retirement benefits of Former Presidents of the Republic of Zambia and also for matters connected with or incidental to the foregoing. Cabinet office provides the required administrative support and related services in line with the provisions of the Former President’s Act.

Madam Chairperson, Government will through the provision of Act No. 40 of 1993 continue to render the necessary administrative services and also endeavour to have houses of the Former Presidents built before leaving office.

Task Force on Corruption

Madam Chairperson, the operations of the Task Force on Corruption will in 2008 continue to be funded under the vote for Cabinet Office Headquarters. However, the funding for these purposes will now appear as a separate and distinct activity called support services to investigations.

Madam, as hon. Members will appreciate, Cabinet Office with its divisions and Office of the Former Presidents plays a key role in Public Service management and providing central administration guidance to the nation. The funds requested for in the 2008 Budget will be necessary to support these activities. Therefore, I request the support of the House for these estimates.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr L. J. Mulenga (Kwacha): Madam Chairperson, Cabinet Office is a key institution in terms of administration and co-ordination of public funds for this nation. The Secretary to the Treasury and all key people belong to this department. The people that procure vehicles for hon. Ministers also belong to this institution

Madam, if we have to move this nation forward, we need to be serious with what we allocate to this important office. This is because when it comes to implementation, monitoring and effectively controlling the budget to the extent where citizens of this nation believe in this Government, Cabinet Office must be supported.

Madam Chairperson, I note with sadness that there has only been an increment which is between 10 and 15 per cent on the salary scales. On Division I scale, there is just about 7 or 8 per cent increment. These are the people that will control our budget, and if our budget is not effectively implemented, our people will suffer. I want the Acting Leader of Government Business to consider increasing the amount so that money, what we aspire for and want to achieve for the betterment of this nation are attained.

I thank you, Madam.

Ms Imbwae (Lukulu West): Madam Chairperson, in recognising the importance of Cabinet Office, I want to liken it to the neck of the human body. The neck is Cabinet Office. We heard the debate as we talked about the Office of the Auditor-General and I will fall back on that later on.

Cabinet Office is the neck. It helps turn this and that way, meaning that it co-ordinates the activities of the whole Civil Service. The previous speaker said that is where all the important structures are found.

Madam, in supporting this budget, I would like to look at a few challenges that Cabinet Office has to overcome. One of those challenges is the management of relationships between the political side of our country and the Civil Service. It is important to understand that context because hon. Ministers relate through the Secretary to the Cabinet and not through individual Permanent Secretaries. This is the way I understood it when I was at school. However, maybe things have changed.

Madam, the reason why co-ordination is through the Office of the Secretary to the Cabinet is because we have not yet decided up to this point on the minimum qualifications for politicians. Therefore, anyone from anywhere who wins an election, regardless of what qualifications he may have, can find himself appointed to the position of hon. Minister or Deputy Minister.

With due respect, Madam, we cannot expect all the people voted by the electorates to understand the work of the Civil Service. I think that would not be proper. I think they need some time. Those who have come from the Civil Service may understand, but those who may not have been associated with the Civil service may not actually know the separation of powers. Therefore, the strengths that are in built in the system that we have been following up to this point are important to recognise, as the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning and the hon. Minister of Justice alluded to. If we mix the systems because of certain weaknesses that we have discovered in the operations of certain ministries, it will not do this country any good. We cannot destroy our own systems which other people are trying to copy just because we have a few that are not working accordingly. I suggest, therefore, with due respect to those that are in those offices to look at the issue of orientation.

 The Secretary to the Cabinet is in charge of Permanent Secretaries. I would like to add that not all Permanent Secretaries are controlling officers. However, because the Secretary to the Cabinet looks at this critical section of the Civil Service, it is important for those colleagues that get appointed to these positions of Permanent Secretary, who may not be aware of the operations of the Civil Service to go through a serious orientation that will minimise the frictions between hon. Ministers and Permanent Secretaries.

Madam, I know that the human factor can mean that even where Permanent Secretaries know what they are doing, as I said earlier. Certain hon. Ministers may not understand the roles of the Permanent Secretaries and therefore, expect them to do certain things which are outside their jurisdiction by virtue of the separation of powers.

Madam Chairperson, there are also three issues that Cabinet Office is supposed to deal with. The issue of capacity building is a Cabinet Office function. That is why, when the Acting Leader of Government Business outlined the various divisions in Cabinet Office, he said that Public Service Management Division (PSMD) will be in charge of employment of staff within the Civil Service.

Madam, the Public Accounts Committee (PAC) looks at the policy issues at Cabinet Office and Administration Division looks at other things. Each of those Divisions has a function. Let those functions trickle down as low as possible to the various levels so that people understand what Cabinet Office is all about. The problem is that there has been a dislocation. When we did the right or down sizing at a certain point, we did not introduce at the time performance monitoring and because of this, we missed out a point.  Even though there was decentralisation of a first kind with the support of the ODA and DFD, we did not have the policy to support it. After that, we lost a few years. Now, we are catching up on lost time. It is a pity that we lost the opportunity to catch up and make this country which all of us will be proud of.

Madam Chairperson, I am aware that there are political sectors which do not know their limits in power. To expect certain hon. Ministers to manage the budget, programmes and manage staff as well as do their political business is expecting too much. Either one thing will suffer. Officers in ministries try to have a working relationship, but it is hard because sometimes you deal with people who do not even want to understand you and that is neither here nor there. The system should not suffer because of that. Let us try to find good working relationships. Let people understand the roles that each one plays in carrying out functions. Let Cabinet Office train people to manage the systems. When I was in the system, we discussed the Singapore model.

Madam Chairperson, there are advantages and disadvantages of contract systems. On the issue of the advantages of a contract system, let me say that positions should be openly competitive so that people the right people are selected. There are qualified people, but cannot be employed into the system. Therefore, I urge Government to advertise positions. This is following the Singapore model. Let us employ qualified personnel who will be able to work with hon. Ministers. We should not be haphazard in the appointments of the Permanent Secretaries and hon. Ministers.

For example, I know some very hard working hon. Ministers who for one reason or another, were moved at a point when they were beginning to make sense in their own ministries. Therefore, Cabinet Office must be able to continue working hard. The Secretary to the Cabinet must be tough with the Permanent Secretaries and also be able to give guidance to hon. Ministers because this is his job.

 I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Hamududu (Bweengwa): Madam Chairperson, I want to state very briefly that Cabinet Office is at the very heart of service delivery in our country.

Madam, the greatest tragedy that has happened in this country is that when the MMD Government came into power in 1991, there was too much excitement and in the process, they tampered with a very efficient Civil Service that they found.

I remember at the funeral of the late Dr Chivuno, the Prime Minister of Namibia said that he was surprised that Dr Chivuno was unemployed in this country. The late Dr Chivuno was the Economic Advisor in Namibia. Many times, he passed information to help this country. That was a tragedy because there was too much excitement in 1991. This Government disturbed an efficient Civil Service that had a history of performance. That was a big tragedy which the MMD Government brought to this country and we must admit because that was a big mistake.

In that excitement, Madam Chairperson, the MMD Government brought in inexperienced untested civil servants, who have actually disturbed the whole system. Today, as we sit here, we have a Civil Service that is fatigued and has inertia and cannot deliver. We are not suffering so much right now in this country from lack of capacity, but there is unproductive culture which has settled in the Civil Service. Therefore, there is urgent need for the Civil Service to reform. There is structural distortion in the Civil Service and, therefore, the whole system cannot work. When our colleagues pronounce New Deal …

Hon. Government Member interjected.

Mr Hamududu: Please, give me a break, I do not want to hear that New Deal. We have nothing to do with that New Deal thing.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: You cannot start driving a second hand car driven by someone without changing the shocks and breaks and then you think that you are safe. You are not.

Hon. Government Member interjected.

Mr Hamududu: No, I think that is a bit childish.

The Chairperson: Order! The danger of the hon. Member debating speaking directly to other hon. Members in the House and not speaking through the Chair is that you will hear what you should not hear and you will be forced to start responding and get derailed. The best way is to speak through the Chair and focus on the Chair and be sure the other people are listening.

May the hon. Member for Bweengwa, please, continue.

Mr Hamududu: Madam Chairperson, the Civil Service that we have today cannot carry any vision for this country. That is why when I hear about Vision 2030 and so on, I just say give me a break because that is not possible. The Vision 2030 with the current delivery vehicle is unachievable. Do you know the benchmarks for a middle income country? This Government is not telling the people what the benchmarks of a middle income country are. These are high benchmarks and with the current delivery system, you cannot achieve that because it is not possible. Therefore, you should give me a beak when you talk about Vision 2030. I urge the Government to reform the Civil Service because it is a vehicle which will bring development and carry the vision of this country. The culture must be revisited. You need to inculcate a productive culture and remove structural distortions that do not produce results.

Madam Chairperson, the returning of the K900 billion to the treasury is because of this Civil Service that cannot carry a vision. This money will be useless for a while and yet, the people out there are suffering. Ministries should have enough capacity to use the money from the very beginning by taking it where it is needed most. In fact, some ministries have two Permanent Secretaries and so I do not know why they fail to deliver. However, we need a Civil Service that is lean, efficient and well paid for them to deliver. You cannot run a blotted Civil Service and Government and expect to achieve anything, no.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: You need to streamline this Government. It is too blotted and distorted …

Hon. Government Member: Go back to Namibia.

Mr Hamududu: I did not ask you to go there and I do not ask anyone. I am a Zambian and my citizenship should not be challenged by anybody.

The Chairperson: Order! We need a different microphone. We cannot go on like this.

Hon. Member, there is need, firstly, for all of us in this House to moderate ourselves. I believe that even without a microphone, you can hear me when I say, “Order!” and it really does not matter what you are saying. You have to stop at that point. Please, do not debate from your seats. Allow the person debating to do so freely so that there is a flow of debate.

When hon. Members on my left are speaking, the hon. Members on my right have to listen. If there are any misleading or misguiding statements, then one expects that the hon. Members on my right will stand and put the record correct on the policy and direction of the Government, but we may not exchange words.

As for the hon. Member debating, I believe that this is the last time you will respond directly to those on my right. If you debate through me, you will not respond to what the Chair cannot hear.

May the hon. Member for Bweengwa, please, continue.

Mr Hamududu: Madam Chairperson, in my conclusion, I want to take advantage of this opportunity to say that if UPND were in Government, we would have trimmed down to a lean and well paid Civil Service which can deliver and carry the vision for this country. The New Deal slogan should just be forgotten because it is just semantic.

With these few remarks, I thank you, Madam.

 

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Madam Chairperson, I will be brief.

Mr Mbewe: For the first time.

Dr Machungwa: I will also want add comments on this vote. Cabinet Office is, like what my colleagues have said, the heart of the administration when it comes to the Civil Service. We are supposed to have the technical expertise that controls and guides the civil servants, particularly Permanent Secretaries and all other officers so that the system works.

In this regard, when the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning very proudly announces that he has taken K900 billion back to the Treasury, in my view, the blame is not only on the hon. Minister, but also on the civil servants and, particularly Cabinet Office. This is because if the Secretary to the Cabinet has worked very closely with these Permanent Secretaries and all their officers throughout the country, they should be able to perform. These are not supposed to be political officers, but technocrats. Their loyalty is to the country and they should perform. If they do not perform, then they should not be there.

It is indeed sad when we come here and lament that there are no services in our areas, such as, medicines and schools and yet money is there, but we cannot access it because the system somehow is not working. I do not know if it is the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning or civil servants who are impotent. It is for this reason that I wish to make it very clear …

that the system should operate. It is like a car which has a deflated tyre, the whole system grounds to a halt. If break fluid is not there, the car will not work effectively. For me, I do not want to put the blame on the politicians alone, but the civil servants are also to blame. I want them to try and address these issues.

When we look at the issue of policy analysis and co-ordination, this is the very key to what is happening. We have a new unit called the Economic Empowerment Commission in Government, but I do not know what analysis was done by the Policy Analysis Unit before bringing this animal into Government. They got all the funds from the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services, which is supposed to go to women’s clubs, the poor and the youths and they also got the tourism funds that is supposed to help entrepreneurs. Are they convinced as a policy analysis unit that by starting with another unit which has no experience at all in dealing with women’s clubs in the rural areas, it is going to be a better system? Have they really analysed that? These are some of the issues that they should ask themselves.

We want to rely on the policy analysis unit so that it analyses and advises the Government properly and correctly so that we do not run back and forth. I see that when we want to work with the grassroots in our constituencies, it is like we are going to deal with another bureaucracy of new technocrats who have no experience in dealing with these issues. In other words, it is like we are trying to go forward and backwards. Probably, they should think of taking the Constituency Development Fund to the Economic Empowerment Commission. Over the years, we have developed a little bit of expertise. We understand some of the problems that we have been facing since we started this programme. All we need is to improve on it.

As regards the youth funds, there have been some problems, but we have gathered some experience. The ministries and youths responsible have now attained some expertise in dealing with some of these problems. However, instead of improving on the existing ones, we are creating new ones. How many offices do they have in the districts and provinces? Again, this is like going backwards and forward. If you want to create jobs for some people, do not touch on those issues that impact directly on the people. We cannot be doing experiments everyday.

Mrs J. Phiri: Hammer on that one!

Dr Machungwa: Madam, let me also state that those of our civil servants who are doing policy analysis should take note of all these issues said above. I am not sure, in this particular case, if this is a very well considered move. I think when we come to debate the relevant ministries, I will address this issue. Do not take money that ameliorates conditions of service of old workers to the new civil servants who have very little experience in dealing with these matters. Do not press the needs and sufferings of our people like that.

Madam, I do not know if my colleagues on your right are happy that whenever they want to deal with matters concerning the youth funds or women’s clubs in their constituencies, they must go through the Economic Empowerment Commission.

That is not what we are asking for. We do not want continuous experiments. If you want to set up something, let those wings already operating continue. Do not try to destroy what is there. For instance, you destroyed the Dag Hammerskjoeld Stadium, but you have not even built a new one. What the Government should have done was to build a new one and left that one there. We now have nothing.

Hon. Opposition Member: Yes, bwekeshenipo!

Dr Machungwa: Cabinet Office is important as it looks after our Former Presidents. However, I have not seen any allocation for houses. May be it is in another vote. I asked my colleague and name sake, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning where these funds are. Are they hidden somewhere?

Hon. Government Member: They are not hidden.

Dr Machungwa: Are they hidden somewhere in the budget?

Hon. Government Member: They are there.

Dr Machungwa: Well, I have not seen this money where it is supposed to be.

Interruptions

Dr Machungwa: Madam Chairperson, what I am saying is that, please, budget transparently and the hon. Member can come and answer.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Mpombo: Madam Chairperson, I want to begin by commenting on the issues raised by my own brother, Hon. Hamududu. I want to say that he spoke with a lot of …

Hon. Government Member: Gusto.

Laughter

Mr Mpombo: … corrosive bitterness …

Laughter

Mr Mpombo: … against the New Deal and because of that bitterness, he looked at the Vision 2030 through distorted spectacles.

Laughter

Mr Mpombo: If the World Bank has said that we are on the right path in terms of securing our economic fundamentals and the local economic associations have said that we are doing extremely well, can we have a contradiction of this nature? I believe this can only be from a point of bitterness. Bitterness does not make you appreciate what other people are doing.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mpombo: My advice to Hon. Hamududu is to lift the veil of impossibility thinking.

Interruptions

Mr Mpombo: You must know that everything is possible and can be achieved with the support of everybody.

Having said this, I want to say that Cabinet Office has a crop of seasoned professionals …
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mpombo: … who are doing extremely well. The issues that Hon. Machungwa, Hon. Imbwae and Hon. L. J. Mulenga raised were actually expressed in my policy statement. My policy statement was anchored on improvement in quality delivery. Those issues that were raised have been taken care of by the focus which was presented in my policy statement.

I thank you, Madam

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Vote 08/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 08/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 08/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 08/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 08/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 08/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 08/08 – (Cabinet Office – Office of the President – Management Development Division – K52,044,256,465).

Ms Imbwae: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 2, Activity 02 – Short and Long Term Training – K269,210,000. Why do we have an increase in this year’s budget? Under Programme 7, Activity 03 – Adapting Strategic Plans for District Administration and Local Authorities, there is no allocation this year. Does it mean that every district in this country has adopted the strategic plans?

Mr Mpombo: Madam Chairperson, this activity has been budgeted for under Sub-head 3 - Organisation Design and Systems Unit, Programme 7, Activity 06 – Adapting Strategic Plans and Organisation Structures for District Administration – K135,267,530 and Activity 07 – Adapting Strategic Plans & Organisation Structures for Provincial Administration – K132,612,530.

I thank you, Madam.

Vote 08/08 ordered to stand part of the estimates.

VOTE 09 – (Teaching Service Commission ─ Office of the President ─ Headquarters - K2,191,889,209).

Mr Mpombo: Madam Chairperson, I thank you for the opportunity accorded to me to present this year’s Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure for the Teaching Service Commission.

Madam, Teaching Service Commission was established under Article 115(A) of the Service Commission Act Cap. 259. Sections 13(B) and 21 empowering the commission to make, with the consent of the President of the Republic of Zambia, regulations regarding its operational procedures and or to confer power or impose duties on any other or authority of the Government for the purpose of discharging its functions.

Madam Chairperson, the work of the Teaching Service Commission is guided by the following mission statement:

“To provide high quality service to the Ministry of Education and partly to the Ministry of Science, Technology and Vocational Training in order to enhance high level performance in the teaching profession through timely appointments, confirmations, promotions, retirements and discipline of staff for the sustainable and efficient service delivery to the nation as enshrined in the Act.”
Madam Chairperson, the functions of the commission are prescribed under Section 122 of the Service Commission Act as follows:

(a) to make appointments to any office in the Teaching Service;

(b) to make appointments on probation, confirmations in appointments, retirements and transfers;

(c) to exercise disciplinary control over persons holding or acting in the established Teaching Service posts and remove any persons from such offices; and

(d) to conduct professional appraisals for teachers as well as sensitise them on their rights and responsibilities.

Madam Chairperson, the commission has had during the year, 2007 struggled to fulfill its various functions already mentioned above under a very tight budget of K1,804,100,615. The commission undertook two provincial tours against the five that were proposed. This situation left the commission with a lot of teachers’ cases unresolved. It is in view of this scenario that I present this year’s budget estimates for the Teaching Service Commission amounting to K2,191,889,209, which will facilitate more work. I would like to urge this august House to favourably consider the budget estimates.

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

Mr Mabenga (Mulobezi): Madam Speaker, I thank you very much for according me this opportunity to add a word or two on the Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure for the Teaching Service Commission.

Madam Chairperson, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning this morning gave this House a few tips of what Professor Lungwangwa did to Hon. Syakalima. It is important, therefore, to mention that the Teaching Service Commission is very important.

Madam Chairperson, the Teaching Service Commission comprises experienced men and women. Most of them have retired from the Teaching Service itself, but they are able to carry out the obligations with vigour and experience in guiding fellow teachers in the various fields of expertise.

Madam, the Teaching Service Commission, as has been mentioned by the Acting Leader of Government Business, deals with appointments of new teachers, promotional segments, retirements and indeed with discipline. Now, from the report we have from the Acting Leader of Government Business, he said that the Teaching Service Commission was only able to make two provincial tours last year. I do not know whether the commission met the target. This is because they also conduct appraisals. Now, I do not know whether this commission carried out appraisals when they had only two provincial tours in the whole country.

Now, we all know that this country is made up of nine provinces with seventy-three districts. If indeed, the Teaching Service Commission is going to be effective, it should not only look at promoting, but mould young teachers. Teachers undergo training at teachers’ technical training colleges, but this is only for a short time. They spend most of the time in the field and there are many trials and temptations that these people go through. Therefore, it is important that a body like the Teaching Service Commission be given chance to go out and talk to the teachers about their experiences and see what would be best changed if there are any problems. Therefore, it is important to increase the budget for the commission so that they reach places like Chipata, Lundazi, Chama, Choba, Kayombo in North-Western Province and Shang’ombo and beyond. Teachers in various places will be very happy to see the appointing authority visit them.

Hon. Member: Sosa.

Mr Mabenga: Madam, when I was being appointed a teacher, the letter read, “The Teaching Service Commission acting on behalf of and in the name of the President hereby appoints you as a teacher in Division II” that time.

The Chairperson: Order!

(Debate adjourned)
 
_______

HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progressed reported)

_________

The House adjourned at 1256 hours until 1430 hours on Tuesday, 19th February, 2008.