DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE SECOND SESSION OF THE TENTH ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 20th February 2008

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

____

ANNOUNCEMENTS

PARLIAMENT RADIO BROADCASTING

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, you may recall that on Friday, 15th January 2008, I informed the House that there was a technical fault on the transmission equipment we are using for Parliament Radio which resulted in limited transmission of live broadcasts only to Lusaka City and surrounding areas of up to 150 kilometre radius.

The rest of our normal coverage area, that is, Kapiri-Mposhi to Kitwe and Mazabuka to Livingstone were not able to receive our live radio broadcasts.

I am pleased to inform the House that the technical fault that had occurred has now been rectified and, as of now, our transmission is back to normal.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: All coverage areas of Parliament Radio are now receiving our live broadcasts, except Pemba and Kapiri-Mposhi which are still experience power outage.

We regret the inconvenience to all our established listeners who were unable to receive our radio transmissions during the breakdown.

Thank you.

LAUNCH OF EXHIBITION ON CLIMATE CHANGE BY BRITISH 
COUNCIL

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to inform the House that the British Council, in conjunction with the British High Commission, will mount an exhibition on climate change, named “Zero Carbon City,” at Parliament Buildings, from 25th to 29th February, 2008. The purpose of this exhibition is to sensitise Members of Parliament on issues of climate change and its impact. The exhibition will be launched on Monday, 25th February, 2008, at 09:30 hours, in the foyer of Parliament Buildings. I shall launch the exhibition.

This is a very important activity and all hon. Members are requested to attend the launch.

Hon. Members should be seated by 0915 hours.

I thank you.

__________

QUESTION FOR ORAL ANSWER

CONSTRUCTION OF POLICE POSTS IN LUMEZI AND KASENGWA CONSTITUENCIES

163. Mr I. Banda (Lumezi) asked the Minister of Home Affairs when police posts would be constructed in Lumezi and Kasenengwa Parliamentary constituencies in the Eastern Province.

The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Bonshe): Mr Speaker, I wish to say that police posts at Lumezi and Kasenengwa in the Eastern Province will be constructed when land is earmarked and when funds are available.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr I. Banda: Mr Speaker, I would like to ask the hon. Minister whether he knows that the population at Lumezi centre has grown tremendously to a point of requiring a police post since the district centre is quite far.

The Minister of Home Affairs (Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha): Mr Speaker, we are quite aware of the population explosion. Our plan is to put up a police station and not just a police post. As soon as funds are available and if a Member of Parliament can help us to mobilise the local community to put in place the usual material, we can start the project as soon as the budget is done.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out why the ministry has not provided for the construction of the police post in this budget.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Speaker, I am sure that when the hon. Member for Kantanshi looks through the budget, he does see a line item that talks about renovations of infrastructure in the police.

I thank you, Sir.

CONSTRUCTION OF A DRY PORT AT THE PORT OF WALVIS BAY

164. Mr Hamududu (Bweengwa) asked the Minister of Foreign Affairs whether the Zambian Government has begun the construction of a dry port at the Port of Walvis Bay in Namibia on the piece of land that was offered to Zambia by the Namibian Government.

The Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs (Professor F. Phiri): Mr Speaker, you may recall that in 2001, the Namibian Government offered land to the Government of the Republic of Zambia to consider the possibility of establishing a dry port facility at Walvis Bay for use by Zambia’s exporters and importers in their trade with Europe, Asia and America. The land is within the port limits of Walvis Bay and is owned by a parastatal, namely; the Namibian Ports Authority (NAMPORT) on behalf of the Government of Namibia.

Similar offers were also made by the Namibian Government to the Governments of Botswana, Malawi and the Democratic Republic of Congo and were accepted in principle. However, none of these countries have so far begun the construction of a dry port.

Mr Speaker, I wish to inform this august House that a memorandum of understanding was signed in March, 2007 by the Governments of Namibia and Zambia. It stipulates as follows:

(a) Namibia shall make land available and facilitate the development of the dry port facility at the Port of Walvis Bay by Zambia;

(b) the identified land at Walvis Bay is at bulk Terminals five and six of approximately 30,410 square metres;

(c) the land shall be made available on terms to be negotiated by the two parties; and

(d) the parties shall be designate entities from their respective countries to negotiate and implement the terms and conditions on the lease agreement in respect of the dry port facility at Walvis Bay.

Mr Speaker, the initial understanding at the time the offer was made was that the land would be offered on free basis and that there would be no charge towards its acquisition. However, it was later established that the land would have to be acquired at a cost.

Mr Speaker, with this new development, Government intends to institute a feasibility study. This study has been budgeted for in the 2008 Budget. The results of this study shall be used to determine the way forward for establishing the dry port facility. The study will, among other things, advise on the full financial and economic costs and benefits of establishing the dry port, recommend the management options and also compare the best locations of the dry port facility in Namibia at places such as Grootfontein, Tsumeb, as well as other optional places in Zambia such as Sesheke and Livingstone.

Mr Speaker, in view of the perceived additional administrative costs of acquiring, managing and operating the dry port, Government will need to hold consultations with relevant stakeholders. It should be noted that if these costs are passed onto users of this facility, the route would be uncompetitive as compared to other alternative routes in this region.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister confirm that the slow pace at which Government is taking time to get hold of this offer, indicates that it has no interest and that the Port of Walvis Bay has very little economic benefits to this country even after the construction of the Sesheke Bridge at a very high cost.

The Minister of Foreign Affairs (Mr Pande): Mr Speaker, we cannot confirm that we have not taken interest. The fact that we have put a budget line in this year’s Budget to do feasibility studies to see the cost effectiveness of the process, shows that we have an interest.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Mr Speaker, do we need a dry port at Walvis Bay or not?

Mr Pande: Mr Speaker, I have just indicated that we are doing a feasibility study and if the hon. Member listened attentively to what the hon. Deputy Minister said, it is after this feasibility study that we will decide whether to have the dry port or not.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Mr Speaker, in his answer, the hon. Deputy Minister said that the land offer for this was made in 2001 and it is only in 2007 that Government started talking about it and the allocation for this facility is in this year’s Budget. Why has it taken so long for Government to begin acting on this considering the fact that the bridge at Katima Mulilo was finished some time around 2001 to 2002 and we need to be getting maximum benefits from it?

Mr Pande: Mr Speaker, yes, the land was offered in 2001 but, as the hon. Deputy Minister indicated, the memorandum of understanding was only signed last year. So it is an issue which should have been agreed between the two countries and Zambia would have not moved at a pace faster than the country that was offering the land.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Matongo (Pemba): Mr Speaker, in his infinite wisdom, would the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs tell us that the port that has been stated justifies spending money to do a feasibility study in Walvis Bay which port at the end of the day may not be needed? In my opinion, the bridge is for other purposes. Would he advise whether Government should spend that money on the feasibility study or not? 

Mr Pande: Mr Speaker, in today’s world everything must be done scientifically in order to arrive at some decisions. This is what we are doing because the economy of Zambia is growing and one day in the near future, we will need the dry port at Walvis Bay and so there is absolute need and good reason to spend the money on feasibility studies.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether it is only in Namibia where Government intends to have a dry port or there are other countries being targeted.

Mr Pande: Mr Speaker, the initiative in Namibia was done by the Namibian Government and that is why we have taken keen interest but if there will be other countries in areas where we feel we need to have a dry port, Government will again show interest.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister confirm that doing the feasibility study at this particular time shows how disorganised this Government is.

Interruptions

Mr Pande: Mr Speaker, it actually shows how organised we are. Disorganised governments do not engage in feasibility studies. 

I thank you, Sir.

PROCUREMENT OF DESKS FOR SCHOOLS IN CHIPILI CONSTITUENCY

165. Mr D. Mwila (Chipili) asked the Minister of Education when the Government would procure desks for the following schools in Chipili Parliamentary Constituency:

(i) Moba Basic School;

(ii) Mulunda Basic School;

(iii) Mukonshi Basic School; and

(iv) Kamami Basic School.

The Minister of Education (Professor Lungwangwa): Mr Speaker, the schools for which desks will be procured will be determined by the District Education Board Secretary after the approval of this year’s Budget.

I thank you, Sir.

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COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the Chair]

VOTE 15/14 – Ministry of Home Affairs – Eastern Province – Prisons and Reformatories – K353,579,868)

(Consideration resumed)

Vote 15/14 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/15 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/17 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/18 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/19 – (Ministry of Home Affairs – Central Province – Passport and Citizenship – K58,752,151).

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Madam Chairperson, Programme 2, Activity 05 – Digitisation of National Travel Documents – K15,000,000, can the hon. Minister explain this amount bearing in mind that passports are only done in Lusaka, Ndola and Livingstone? What is this allocation for in Kabwe?

The Minister of Home Affairs (Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha): Madam Chairperson, Programme 2, Activity 05 – Digitisation of National Travel Documents – K15,000,000, the provision is for the processing and issuance of digitised passports during the year 2008, specifically for paper work for Central Province to submit their papers to our office in order for us to process the new passports.

I thank you, Madam.

Vote 15/19 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/20 ordered to stand part of the Estimates

Vote 15/21 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/22 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/23 – Ministry of Home Affairs – Luapula Province – Passport and Citizenship – K41,182,051)

Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Madam Chairperson, may I find out from the hon. Minister why the allocations in the programmes have not changed from last year.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Madam Chairperson, the allocations have not changed because last year the allocations were more than ample for the work that is being done there.

I thank you Madam.

Vote 15/23 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/24 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/25 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/26 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/27 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/28 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/29 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/30 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/31 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/32 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 15/33 (The Ministry of Home Affairs – North-Western Province – Immigration Department – K470,488,053).

Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwezi): Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 7, Activity 01 – Monitoring of Entry, Exit and Stay of Immigrants and Visitors – K44,162,351. Why has this allocation not been increased when we have mass investment coming into the North-Western Province?

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Madam Chairperson, Programme 7, Activity 01 – Monitoring of Entry, Exit and Stay of Immigrants and Visitors – K44,162,351, this allocation is purely for regional offices and the amount for the year 2008 is sufficient.

I thank you, Madam

Vote 15/33 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/34 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/35 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 15/36 (Ministry of Home Affairs – Copperbelt Province – National Registration – K676,689,865).

Mr Kambwili: Madam Chairperson, Programme 2, Activity 02 – Continuous Registration – K213,500,000, I have observed that the allocation is stagnant in almost all the provinces. May I know what is going on? Is it that people are just lazy to budget properly? I ask because we still have a lot of problems in national registration and we see a lot of queues when we have elections. Can the hon. Minister shed some light on this?

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Madam Chairperson, Programme 2, Activity 02 – Continuous Registration – K213,500,000 it is not that people are lazy to carry out the work of continuous registration. However, this is a progressive exercise that continues every year and we continue to capture as many as are available in all the centres.

I thank you, Madam

Vote 15/36 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/37 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/38 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/39 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/40 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/41 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/42 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/43 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 15/44 – (Ministry of Home Affairs – Mukobeko Maximum Prison – K308,538,398).

Mr Kambwili: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on the Department Total of this Vote. Last year there was an allocation of K308,538,398 and the same amount of money has been allocated in this year’s Budget. Where is the improvement we have been talking about? Surely, are you telling me that the same number of inmates who were at Mukobeko last year is the same as those who are there today? These prisoners have got no mattress …

The Chairperson: Order, ask your question!

Mr Kambwili: Yes, the question is, why are we allocating the same amount of money every year?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Kambwili: I think somebody is being lazy to carryout proper research and come up with figures that are acceptable. I do not think it is right to have same figures every year.

The Chairperson: Order! You have made your point.

Mr Kambwili: Tabomfwa aba!

Laughter

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Madam Chairperson, I wish Hon. Kambwili would have translated the last part of his dissertation.

Laughter

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: But I would like to assure him that we are definitely improving.

The figures that he is seeing here are as a result of the work that has been done in the past and the figures that are being shown for this year as well as for last year are an improvement.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 15/44 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/46 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/47 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/48 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/49 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/50 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/51 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/52 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/53 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/54 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/55 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/56 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 15/57 – (Ministry of Home Affairs – Drug Enforcement Commission – Western Province – K82,370,239).

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson,  Programme 2, Activity 01 - Office Administration – K82,370,239, I have noted that all the allocations to provinces under the Drug Enforcement Commission, including Western Province, are exactly the same amounts with regard to approved estimates and authorised amounts and the allocation for 2008. This obviously is very eye catching. Could I learn from the hon. Minister what formula the Drug Enforcement Commission is using to ensure that they are so consistent with their budget and that even for this year, they still require only that same amount. What formula are they using which the other ministries could learn from?

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Madam Chairperson, Programme 2, Activity 01 - Office Administration – K82,370,239, it is not possible for other ministries to learn from the Drug Enforcement Commission if they are using a drug formula.

Laughter

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: However, the consistence of the Drug Enforcement Commission is that they are exceedingly professional.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 15/57 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

VOTE 12/01 – (Commission for Investigations – Office of the President – Headquarters -K3,214,889,000).

The Vice-President (Mr R. Banda): Madam Chairperson, it is now my honour and privilege to present to this august House, Recurrent and Capital Expenditure Budget Estimates for 2008 in respect of the Commission for Investigations.

Madam, the Commission for Investigations was established in December, 1973 by way of Article 3 of the Republican Constitution as read with Section 20 of the Commission for Investigations Act, No. 22 of 1994. Today, it derives its legal status from Article 90 of the 1996 Republican Constitution and Commission for Investigations Act 20 of 1991, Cap 39 of the Laws of Zambia.

Madam Chairperson, the operations of the Commission for Investigations are guided by the following Mission Statement:

“To ensure fairness and promotion of social justice in the administration of the public institutions in order to facilitate the efficient and effective delivery of services to the people. Its ultimate goal is to ensure compliance with the laid down administrative procedures, practices and ethics and initiate corrective action in public institutions in order to enhance effective administration.”

Madam, among the main functions of the Commission for Investigations are the following;

(a) Investigations for functions which involves investigating and redressing grievances of mal-administration in the public institutions and ensuring promotion of fairness and social justice. It also includes monitoring administrative mal-practices to ensure compliance to laid down procedures, and

(b) Publicity and information functions which consists of the promotion of the public awareness on the existence of services provided by the commission.

Madam, other functions are to establishment and maintenance of an effective and efficient management information system.

Madam, regarding the performance of the Commission for Investigations, it is measured by the number of cases that are received and resolved. For example, a record of cases handled by the commission last year, 2007 is as follows:

Madam Chairperson, 506 was the number of complaints received in the year under review. These complaints ranged from under payments of pension benefits to non-confirmation in appointments. The institutions which recorded the highest number of complaints were, Ministry of Education, Public Service Pensions Fund, Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives, Zambia Police Service and Ministry of Health. The total number of complaints which were concluded in the year 2007 was 311.

Madam Chairperson, the Commission for Investigations’ planned activities for 2008 are as follows:

(a) Complete the exercise of implementing the restructuring of the Commission for Investigations which will entail the establishment of three regional or provincial offices mainly, Ndola, Livingstone and Lusaka. Complaints from districts will be processed through these regional offices.

(b) As a form of training continues to attach senior officers to regional and international ombudsman centres for cross pollination of ideas and updating the operations to international levels.

(c) The Commission for Investigations has planned to tour five provinces to resolve on-going complaints and at the same time, to receive new complaints. The provinces to be toured are Northern, Luapula, Southern, Copperbelt and Central Provinces.

(d) Under capacity building programmes, there are three components which the Commission for Investigations plans to undertake and these are:

(i) Continue with the exercise of policy review and development;

(ii) Training Senior Management Investigations and Registry Staff in the alternative disputes, mediations and resolution as well as basic skills in investigations, and

(iii) Introduction and maintenance of an electronic data base.

(e) To launch vigorous publicity programmes through electronic and print media. These activities are aimed at redressing grievances in order to achieve social justice, fair play and good governance. 

Madam Chairperson, furthermore, it is the Commission’s earnest appeal to the hon. Members of this Parliament to assist the Commission in publicising and educating their constituencies about the existence and services of this very important institution.

Madam, finally, the Commission humbly requests that this august House may kindly approve the Commission’s Estimates of Expenditure to cover the period from 1st January, 2008 to 31st December, 2008.

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Madam Chairperson, from the onset, I would like to welcome back, His Honour the Vice-President, from his two week tour of duty in Kanyama, but I also would like to commend him for visiting Kabwata.

Madam, when you asked for debate, you observed that there was very little enthusiasm. It is not because hon. Members are not interested in this vote but it is because Government is keeping this Commission for Investigations under lock and key somewhere, where people do not know.

Madam Chairperson, I would like to challenge the hon. Minister of Defence whether he knows where the Commission for Investigations’ Office is located.

Laughter

Mr Lubinda: He does not know where the Investigator General’s Office is located. Madam Speaker, as for my colleagues in the MMD Back Bench, I can tell that they do not even know that this office exists.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: If people in the Executive do not know about this office, how do we expect it to function? How do we expect it to fulfill the mandate that His Honour the Vice-President was talking about?

Madam Chairperson, I would like to inform the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning that unless institutions of governance such as the Commission for Investigations are sufficiently equipped, we are not capable of attaining the Millennium Development Goals (MDGs) in Zambia. We are not capable of talking about good governance for as long as institutions like the Commission for Investigations are not properly funded. The situation obtaining on the ground now is that this office is being maintained just for the sake of the name.

The Vice-President talked about 506 cases being recorded by the Commission last year in a country where even the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning is concerned about the mal-administration in Government departments. How come there are only 506 cases and no more? How many of our people are being subjected to mal-administration, and yet, are not reporting to this office? It is because this office is like a bull dog whose teeth have been knocked out by Government.

Mr Kambwili: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: It is a bull dog that has no teeth which cannot bite or function. It is a three legged bull dog. I would like to demonstrate what I mean. The Commission for Investigations is the least staffed of all Government departments with only eighteen members of staff.

Interruptions

Mr Lubinda: It only has eighteen members of staff to receive complaints of mal-administration which are rampant in the MMD Government.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, of those eighteen members of staff, ten are what are referred to as daily casual employees. Daily casual employees are people who have nothing to do with investigations. The number of investigators is eight. You cannot expect eight people to investigate the mal-administration that twelve million people are suffering in your Government. It is impossible. This is the reason why Hon. Magande is always complaining that his colleagues are abusing public resources because the office which is supposed to assist Government in investigating mal-administration is not funded sufficiently.

Interruptions
 
Mr Lubinda: I know that when I talk about such issues, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning gets extremely frustrated because he knows that I am right.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: that is why he leaving now.

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: He is leaving because he feels the frustration that this Government is causing the people of Zambia by not funding the Investigator General’s Office adequately.

Your Honour, the Vice-President, I would like to run you through the budget to show you that what you were talking about …

The Chairperson: Order! Speak through the Chair.

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, I apologise. What His Honour the Vice-President is talking about does not correlate with the amount of money that has been allocated. For example, he said that this year the Office of the Investigator General will visit five provinces. How much money have you provided for them?

Interruptions

Mr Lubinda: In 2007, you allocated K184 million for visitation. This year, when you are saying they will visit five provinces, you have given them zero. For goodness sake, how do you expect the Investigator General to tour?

Hon. Member: On a broomstick.

Mr Lubinda: Are you saying the Investigator General will tour provinces on a broomstick? In the Budget, out of 1,800 pages, the Commission for Investigations is the only department with less than one page. Why are you not funding the Investigator General’s Office?  Am I being naïve? I suppose I am because I am expecting that a thief cannot go and feed a bull dog that will seize him in the night. The reason you are not funding the Investigator General’s Office is because you know that it is established to check your mal-administration.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: The money in the Budget is not yours, my friends but for the people out there. The Office of the Investigator General is provided for in the Constitution of this land. You are not respecting it, and yet you are asking me to go and amend the Constitution at the NCC when you are not even keeping in line with the current Constitution.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: What sort of contradiction is this? If you cannot respect the current Constitution, what the hell do you think will make me believe that you will respect the next Constitution?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: Order! Withdraw the phrase “what the hell”.

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, I apologise and withdraw it. However, that shows you how injured I am on behalf of the people of Zambia. I must point out that it is extremely frustrating.

Madam Chairperson, I would like to indicate that of all Government Ministries and departments, this unfortunate department is the one with the least increase compared to the 2007 budgetary allocation. This department has been given a small increment of K300 million. Of that K300 million, 75 per cent of it is to personal emoluments, not because of the increase in the staffing levels, but because the people in the Investigator General’s Office also require salary increments like other people in different ministries. That is the only increase they have been given.

Madam, I have been complaining about the absence and lack of visibility of the Investigator General’s Office. Last year, this Government provided K205 million for public awareness and publications. In their wisdom, because they want to continue hiding their mal-administration, this year they have reduced it from K205 million to a paltry K16 million. How much money has MMD spent in Kanyama for public awareness?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Just in one by-election, the MMD as a party, has spent more than K20 million, and you expect the Investigator General’s Office to publicise itself with K16 million.

Hon. Opposition Members: Shame!

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, last year, I proposed that in line with the decentralisation policy that is being embarked upon by Government, the Office of the Investigator General should be amongst the first to be decentralised. I did propose that it would be done without huge amounts of money if they linked the Office of Investigator General to the local authorities by empowering local authorities to identify people who shall be commissioned by the Investigator General for them to decentralise their operations.

These 506 cases that His Honour the Vice-President talked about, none of them emanated from local authorities. Do you expect a person from Mufumbwe or Kaputa to come to Lusaka and start looking for this office which is hidden? How will they find it? They will not. As a result of what is happening, people are just suffering because they have no one to talk or report to.

Madam Chairperson, I want to propose to the hon. Minister of Works and Supply who is not here that the Anti-Corruption Commission left beautiful properties along Independence Avenue when they went to take over the current Anti-Corruption House. Why do you not move the Office of the Investigator General from where you tacked it behind passport office? Why do you not move them from there and give them an office where you will increase their feasibility?

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, I also want to show you that my colleagues, my very good friends who I like very much are full of rhetoric. They are very good at rhetoric. The one thing that they never manage to do is to walk the talk.

Madam Chairperson, in their FNDP, they stated very clearly what their ambitions are with regard to good governance, transparency and accountability. In summary, it is stated on page 27 programme 5 and I quote:

 ‘Accountability and Transparency.’

Their ambition is to create effective mechanisms for prevention of corruption, abuse of office, misappropriation in public and private bodies and to create efficiency in audit investigations and prosecutions.

This document is FNDP 2006 to 2010. We are in 2008, mid-year through the FNDP period and we have not demonstrated to anyone that they mean what they say. Had they meant what they say, this year would have seen an increase in the allocations to the Office of Investigator General.

You only have one year my dear friends to walk this talk. By the end of next year if nothing is done to the Office of the Investigator General, I will cry foul to anyone who stands in this House and talks about FNDP because they have declared this completely useless. Madam Chairperson, to waste the time of the Zambian people to come up with workshops, seminars, Indabas, caucuses and conferences yet, you do not respect the documents produced, is a waste of time.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Particularly that they also come here and get national resources to fund these funny strange conferences, is a waste of people‘s money. I am short of saying, it is illegally pocketing people’s money.

 Mr D. Mwila: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, to go through processes which produce documents which you do not respect is pocketing money of the people illegally.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: It is collecting money under force pretences which is an offence under the Criminal Code. I will call upon all my friends who are lawyers on your left to start indicting you. Do not come up with documents such as these if you do not mean to implement what you say.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: I would like to appeal to Government particularly through my very good friend the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing that she must support me that the Investigator General’s Office must be decentralised.

Mrs Masebo: On a point of order, Madam.

Madam Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mrs Masebo: Madam Chairperson, I rise on a very serious point of order. Is the hon. Member for Kabwata who is debating very well in order to be insinuating that we are pocketing public funds. Such statements can be misleading to the public. We must say things that are factual so that they are not misunderstood by the public. I seek your serious ruling, madam.

The Chairperson: Order! The hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing has raised a concern that Mr Lubinda’s debate, in her words, insinuates that people in Government are pocketing money meaning that they are misusing people’s public resources for their personal good.

The guidance from the Chair is that the Chair takes that a general statement about Government rather than the individual hon. Ministers and therefore, hon. Ministers may have to clarify what he is saying.

Before I allow Hon. Lubinda to continue, I want to ask the House, to avoid certain terminologies that people use somewhere else which are not befitting this House. Therefore, the hon. Member should avoid using the word ‘pocketing’ because you know other words to use that will describe a situation exactly the way you want it put. This…

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order! I mean just that. Could we use the words that are honourable and acceptable.

Will the hon. Member continue, please.

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, I thank you for your guidance and I apologise for being so rough on this matter, but it is because I feel it and it pains me.

Madam Chairperson, all I would like to appeal to my colleagues in the Executive to be aware of is that they must not start programmes and processes with some different intentions and at the end of it, they abandon their intentions. They spent a lot of money, taxpayers paid for coming up with the Fifth National Development Plan.  They have demonstrated here that with regard to transparency, accountability and empowering the Investigator General Office, they do not mean what is stated in that document. All I am saying is that please my dear friends, time shall come for you to account for your activities and at that time I shall be proud as a Zambian to stand here whether in the Opposition or Executive, to say, my friends the money you spent on the FNDP was money you collected under force pretences because you did not mean what you said. I therefore, appeal to my colleagues to start to walk their talk. They have spent too much time on rhetoric.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Madam Chairperson, I would like to thank you and all hon. Members for contributing to the debate on the Vote. As for those who have not debated, I am debating for you now.

 Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Madam, I would like to thank Hon. Lubinda who has debated on our behalf for what he has said but we would like to advise that hon. Members who feel very strongly about these issues such as to increase the funding to the office of the Investigator General, it is better for us to make these submissions when the budget is being made. We should not wait until the matter comes here and then, we pander to the public. It is fair for you and I understand the points you are making require the support of this Government and the whole House.

Madam Chairperson, I urge hon. Members to propose these additions to the budget in good time so that we can actually implement what we are saying. Once again, I would like to thank all hon. Members and I hope that they will support whatever has been given and that we have taken note of what needs to be added next time we come back for this particular aspect of the budget.

 I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 12/01 – (Commission for Investigations – Office of the President – K3,288,959,166)

Ms Imbwae: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 7, Activity 02 – Production of Radio and Television Programmes – K19,000,000, I notice that there is a reduction on that and on Activity 03 – Trade Fair and Commercial Shows – K89,750,000, there is an increase. I wonder why the radio and television programmes have been reduced when it is the only way that people can actually get to know what the investigation office is doing.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Imbwae: Madam, may I also have clarification on Programme 8, Activity 03 – Government and Parastatal Institution Visitation – no allocation, it has totally been removed from the budget. Have we lost departments or what is happening?

The Vice-President: Madam Chairperson, Programme 7, Activity 02 – Production of Radio and Television Programmes – K19,000,000, this amount is to be used to cover adverts. The costs have been based on the quotation obtained hence the negative in variance.

The Chairperson: What about Programme 8?

The Vice-President: Madam Chairperson, Programme 8, Activity 03 – Government and Parastatal Institution Visitation, this provision will be used to meet the costs …

The Chairperson: There is no provision on Activity 03.

Interruption

The Vice-President: What programme is it?
Laughter

The Chairperson: Programme 8, Activity 03.

The Vice-President: Yes, this is the one, investigating …

The Chairperson: No. It is Programme 8, Activity 03.

The Vice-President: Yes, Programme 8, Activity 03 - Government and Parastatal Institution Visitation, this provision will be used …

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah! There is no provision!

Interruption

The Vice-President: This has been moved to Activity 04 – On the Spot Investigation – K89,750,000

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 7, Activity 01 – Publications of Brochures and Pamphlets – K16,300,000, why is the reduction so big from K205,000,000 last year to K16,300,000 this year? How many publications will be there and why the reduction is so big?

The Vice-President: Madam Chairperson, Programme 7, Activity 01 – Publications of Brochures and Pamphlets – K16,300,000, this amount will be used to cover costs for printing brochures and pamphlets for distribution during the provincial sittings.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Mukanga: Madam Chairperson, I think the question has not been fully answered. I want to find out why there is a big reduction from K205,000,000 to K16,300,000

The Vice-President: Madam Chairperson, it is because we had produced a lot last year and therefore, we will use some of that, hence the reduction.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr D. Mwila: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1, Activity 02 – Salaries Division II – K193,000,000. Last year there was an allocation of K241,271,892 and this year it has been reduced to K193,000.000. Can the Vice-President explain why there is that reduction? Is it because some employees have left employment?

Secondly, may I have clarification on Programme 8, Activity 02 – Preparation of the Annual Reports – K60,000,000. Last year, K98 million was allocated but this year it has been reduced to K60 million. Is the Vice-President saying that the activities of the department will be reduced?

The Vice-President: Madam Chairperson, Programme 1, Activity 02 – Salaries Division II – K193,000,000, this will cover for salaries for Division I officers. The negative variance is due to the upgrading of some positions from Divisions I to II.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: What about Programme 8?

The Vice-President: Madam Chairperson, Programme 8, Activity 02 – Preparation of the Annual Reports – K60,000,000, this provision will be used to meet the cost of preparing annual reports, allowances, accommodation, hire charges and stationery for the year 2008. The backup of the reports have been paid for, hence the lower quote which will be used to pay for the 2006 Annual Reports hence the variance.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 8, Activity 03 – Government and Parastatal Institution Visitations and Activity – no allocation and Activity 04 – On the Spot Investigations – K299,140,000. In view of what we heard from the Vice-President that about 506 cases were reported last year, of which 311 were concluded and that there are five provinces to be visited, would the Vice-President not request this House that for Activity 03, Government and Parastatal Institution Visitations which is separate from just visiting on the spot based on reports provided for under Activity 04, the Minister of Finance and National Planning and him provide the figure 1 so that it allows them to appropriate further resources to this office for that purpose through supplementary expenditure since we have not moved an amendment? Would he not do that?

The Vice-President: The Minister of Finance and National Planning will answer that question.

The Chairperson: Alright.

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Magande): Madam Chairperson, I believe that the stage we have reached now is not for making wholesome recommendations. When we tell this House why a Vote has not been budgeted for and there is a new Vote, it is because of the way the operation was carried out. So, we do not accept that kind of amendment that we have left out a Vote and it must be reinstated when we have given the reason where this particular item is going to be covered.

I thank you, Madam.

Vote 12/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 29 ─ (Ministry of Local Government and Housing ─ K217,670,098,577 and  VOTE 20 ─ Loans and Investments – Local Government and Housing ─ K491,743,475,560)

The Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mrs Masebo): Madam Chairperson, I wish to thank you for giving me this opportunity to present my ministry’s policy statement on the 2008 Budget, which was ably moved by none other than Minister of Finance and National Planning.

The Ministry of Local Government and Housing is a critical ministry in the promotion of the social economic development of this country, in that, it is mandated to develop and to ensure democratic local governance. This is the ministry which facilitates the efficient and effective delivery of quality housing, municipal infrastructure, such as roads, street lights, just to mention a few and other social services by local authorities. These services are, in fact, the foundation for an improved quality of life in the communities, where the citizens lead a health and productive life. With the foregoing in mind, my ministry will in the year 2008 Budget endeavour to accelerate implementation of on going programmes and projects and add value to the principles of good local governance, infrastructure provision and the leadership of the local authorities.

Madam Chairperson, according to the Government Gazette Notice No. 547 of 2004, the ministry is responsible for the following:

(i) coordination of the seventy-two local authorities in the country;
(ii) fire services;
(iii) the Local Authority Superannuation Fund (LASIF);
(iv) Local Authorities Training at Chalimbana;
(v) National  Housing Policy;
(vi) rates;
(vii) registration of clubs;
(viii) rent control other than civil service;
(ix) shopping hours;
(x) theatres and cinemas;
(xi) traditional beer;
(xii) regional and physical planning;
(xiii) valuation of property other than Government property;
(xiv) chief’s affairs; and
(xv) water supply and sanitation.

Madam Chairperson, in addition to the functions that I have already stated above, my ministry is also in charge of the following statutory bodies and institutions:

(i) The local Government Training Institute as I said in Chalimbana;
(ii) Gwembe District Special Fund which is now in dissolution;
(iii) National Housing Authority;
(iv) the National Fire Services Training School;
(v) the Local Authority Superannuation Fund;
(vi) provincial liquor licencing boards; and
(vii) provincial local Government appeals boards.

Madam Chairperson, the Ministry of Local Government and Housing is composed of eight departments which perform various functions and these are;

(i) the Human Resource and Administrative Department;
(ii) the Local Government Administration Department;
(iii) Infrastructures and Support Services Department;
(iv) Government Valuation Department;
(v) the House of Chiefs and Chief’s Affairs Department;
(vi) decentralisation secretariat;
(vii) physical planning and housing; and 
(viii) Chalimbana Local Government Training Institute.

Madam Chairperson, this year’s budget for the Ministry of Local Government and Housing, Vote 29 stands at K217,690,098,577, representing an increase of 11 per cent over the 2007 budget which was a K196,255,025,812, out of this amount, K6,078,000,000 is for personal emoluments while non personal emoluments stands at K211,023,000,000. The budget for housing and water infrastructure projects under Vote 20, which is Loans and Investments stand at K491,743,475,960 out of which K414,782,000,000 is from our corporating partners and K76,961,475,960 as Government counterpart contribution.

Madam Chairperson, the 2008 Budget has been planned to achieve its intended objectives, programmes and activities through the named departments in the following manner:

Madam Chairperson, under the Human Resource and Administration, the department is generally responsible for general administration of the ministry and a number of significant programmes and activities were undertaken in the year 2007, with the notable ones being the rehabilitation of the ministry building, revision of the ministerial strategic plan and capacity building both in administration and the prudent utilisation of resources. In 2007, the department was allocated K11.382 billion. This year, 2008, the department has been allocated K8,709,087,634 and this will be used to continue on the programmes and activities that were started last year.

Madam Chairperson, the Chalimbana Local Government Training Institute is the institution that Government established to provide training for council staff at various levels. In the 2007 Budget the institute had a budget provision of K3.098 billion and continued its mandates of human resource development in councils. In this regard, a number of courses were implemented during the year. In 2008 a total budget of K3,024,659,007 has been allocated to the institute to facilitate co-business of training of members of staff in the councils to make them much more qualified in running institutions and of course, the local authority institutions and also to be abreast with new trends.

Madam Chairperson, the department of physical planning and housing is responsible for facilitating the achievement of orderly coordinated sustainable land use, development and balance regional development of human settlements, as well as the provision of adequate and affordable housing for all income groups in the country.

In the year 2007 the department had a total budget of 4.8 billion and this year the department has been allocated a total budget of K3,983,355,861 under Vote 29, while the capital budget under Vote 20 which is Loans and Investment is at 14.482,475,960.

Madam Chairperson, following Government’s declaration of housing as a priority sector, this has been followed by a sustainable increase in the allocation of Government budgetary resources to the sector. Subsequently, a number of programmes and activities have taken place in the sector during the period under review. One of these is the preparation of integrated development plans. My ministry has now produced a status quo report for Solwezi as a first stage in the planning process and currently the analysis of data is being undertaken. The planning boundary for the Lumwana New Township has since been approved by the three chiefs as well as the full council meeting on Solwezi Municipal Council.

Madam Chairperson, in line with the prioritisation of the housing sector, my ministry last year embarked on a programme of opening up land to facilitate the construction of low, medium and high cost houses by various stakeholders. A directive was given to local authorities to set aside land minimum of a 100 housing units in each district and to submit layout plans to the ministry to indicate their readiness for the programme. To kick start this programme, K5 billion was released to the National Housing Authority, who are undertaking the servicing of the 100 plots in each district that has shown readiness by submitting layout plans.

I urge hon. Members to understand this point. Madam Chairperson, K5 billion was released to the National Housing Authority to work with the councils in opening up these 100 plots. Those councils that are not responding to Government’s programmes and are spending time doing other things, when resources go to other districts, they should not come to the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing and start making noise as to why their councils were left out. This will be so because they have not responded to some of these policy guidelines. So when the resources are sent or there is a Government programme, it is necessary that the hon. Members who are councilors make sure that their councils respond positively.

Mr Kasongo: But remove the words “making noise”. We do not make noise.

Mrs Masebo: Ok, they do not make noise, they just talk but I wish you knew.

Madam Chairperson, the Department of Local Government Administration is responsible for the co-ordination of all the seventy-two councils. In order to achieve this, the department was last year allocated K136,797,452,955. This year the department has a total budget of K168,714,063,363 and this will be for the following programmes:

I will begin with retrenchments and retirements in councils. A sum of K25 billion which was requested in the 2007 budget, was released to reduce the councils’ indebtedness towards retirees and retrenchees. Out of this amount, K11.5 billion was given to the Local Authorities Superannuation Fund (LASF) to clear the retired workers’ unpaid contributions while K13.5 billion was given to only 54 district councils. This year, the ministry has budgeted for another K25 billion to cater for the retirees in the remaining fourteen municipal councils and four city councils that were not paid in 2007. Now, you will note that in 2007, part of this money mainly went to the small districts to help them clear the backlog and I am happy to say that all the fifty-four district councils have paid their retirees.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: We did not extend the same money to the cities because their bills were very high and we are trying to ensure that certain smaller councils should be totally removed from the list. This year we will be concentrating on assisting the four city councils and the fourteen municipal councils.

Mr Kambwili: Hear, hear! Good news!

Mrs Masebo: Madam Chairperson, another grant is what we are calling the ‘recurrent grant’. The ministry last year budgeted a sum of K50 billion as recurrent grant for local authorities. The ministry managed to disburse K200 million to each of the fifty-four district councils, K300 million to each of the fourteen municipalities and K400 million to each of the four city councils. The ministry also disbursed funds for the procurement of utility vehicles for all the 150 constituencies.

Mr Sikazwe: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Thirty tractors have also been procured to be distributed to the needy districts. These will be used in the collection of garbage. We have also acquired some boats for some councils with rivers, like Kafue, Samfya, Siavonga and Gwembe, just to mention a few …

Hon. Members: Hear

Mrs Masebo: … and funds amounting to K1 billion was also given to each province for improvement in the water supply. This was disbursed to all water utilities on behalf of the councils since the water utilities are the ones dealing with the issues of water supply and sanitation. In 2008, the budget has made another provision of K50 billion which will again go towards assisting local authorities in various functions.

Madam Chairperson, another grant is called ‘grants in lieu of rates’. This is a statutory requirement under the Rating Act for Government to pay grants in lieu of rates to councils on their properties in each council area. In the 2007 Budget, a provision of K17.7 billion was provided for as grants in lieu of rates for councils and this amount was disbursed to all the local authorities. In the 2008 Budget, K20 billion has been allocated for this purpose.

Madam Chairperson, it is important for hon. Members to understand that this grant, which has been disbursed to local authorities, is meant for the local authorities to take decisions on how best they can use this money for some of the problems that they face in service delivery and indeed, even in staff related matters.

Madam Chairperson, …

The Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

[MADAM CHAIRPERSON in the Chair]

Mrs Masebo: Madam Chairperson, when business was suspended, I was talking about grants which go to councils and these are grants in lieu of rates. I was saying that in last year’s Budget, we had K17.7 billion and in 2008, the budget has been increased to K20 billion. You will note that this is statutory requirement under the Rating Act for Government to pay grants in lieu of rates to councils on their properties in each council area.

The problem that we have had is that some councils do not seem to know or do not seem to have information as to how many Government properties they have so that they can have them valued and have a true picture of the value of Government properties within their council area. So when the ministry was trying to get that information in 2006, we found that the figures that were coming were distorted.

One of the issues that has come to light, and I hope the hon. Members of Parliament who are members of councils can take note of this, is the fact that some of our Government departments have been putting up properties within council boundaries with no reference to councils as the planning authority. It is necessary that Government departments that are responsible for this should help the local authorities in ensuring that if the Ministry of Education or the Ministry of Health is constructing a Government structure in any district, they should go through the normal channel in terms of councils capturing that on the valuation roll and councils also have to know that these buildings have drawings because we sometimes have a situation where some Government departments think that because they are part of Government, they are not supposed to follow the law.

I have since sent a notice to all the provincial permanent secretaries advising them to ensure that they advise the district commissioners and all the affected Government departments in the districts to ensure that if a hospital, school or a government office, or whether it is an office for the district commissioner or any government officer is being put up, the plans of the structure must go through the local authority. There are many reasons for this such as planning purposes, capturing it on the valuation roll and indeed we also have to maintain the standards. As Government, we have to lead by example. So you will see that even the figure of K20 billion might not be the true reflection of the amounts of Government structures country-wide. However, I am happy to note that there has been a good increment from K7.7 billion to K20 billion.

Madam Chairperson, the other grant which has been budgeted for is what we are calling the ‘capital Grant’. A total budget of K10 billion was provided for as capital grants in 2007.

This amount was disbursed to local authorities for various capital projects such as construction or rehabilitation of modern markets, public toilets and the rehabilitation of play parks. Funds were also disbursed to Lusaka and Kitwe Councils for the provision of street lights in some major roads.

In the 2008 Budget, a provision of K10 billion has been made available for capital grants. I hope hon. Members who are members of councils are listening very carefully to this. The amount of K10 billion is a capital grant. Obviously what we would say is that K10 billion is a little amount and that it will only be enough for a district like Chongwe. However, this amount looks small because most of it is lying in ministries for various capital projects.

Madam Speaker, each sector ministry has infrastructure. Under Ministry of Home Affairs, we are talking about construction of houses even though this is the work of the Ministry of Local Government and Housing and the local authorities. However, the Ministry of Home Affairs has put money in its budget to begin constructing 1,500 houses for their police officers.

Under the Ministry of Health, you will also note that there is an allocation for construction of houses. If you go to the Ministry of Justice, they will talk about construction of houses. This is why this amount looks small because there is a lot of money for infrastructure in the various sectors. If we were fully decentralised, this figure could look big because all those monies would be appearing under a district budget. Since we are still concentrated, these monies would be appearing under respective sector ministries. Let me also say that as a ministry, in deciding to allocate this money and other monies we have talked about, we use three ways.

The first way is that you, yourselves as a district must plan that you want a play park or you want to do street lighting. You must decide that indeed, that is a priority whether it is a priority to build an office block, a chamber, or houses, that decision is yours.

The second process is that we as Government have our priorities too and we will direct in approving the budgets that councils take certain projects. We will do that.

The third one is where individual Members as councillors who are also here in Lusaka and near head office - State Government - will push for what they think is happening in their constituencies and districts. Then from time to time they will come and make noise to the Minister. As a human being, obviously, when you see a Member of Parliament working hard for his district, you would want to help that hon. Member.

Now, when you see those reflected on how things are being allocated, this is why I say, do not come and make noise to me saying why there? I am blind as all councils fall under this administration and there is no PF or MMD. There is no council which is special, all the seventy-two councils are my councils.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: If a particular council does not work well, they will not say Councillor Kambwili, they will say Mwanawasa’s Government has failed. That is why even in the Kanyama bye-election we are being blamed …

Dr Scot: Of course!

Mrs Masebo: … because even when the Member of Parliament there was PF and the Council in Lusaka is PF, at the end of the day, there is only one government. To that extent, we are the Government mandated to bring development.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: I want you to understand that we will plan for all the seventy-two councils as if they were all our first born babies.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Madam Chairperson, on the issue of provision of fire fighting equipment for established fire brigades, although the allocation for this activity was minimal in the year 2007, the ministry with the help of the Office of the Vice-President acquired thirty fire tenders which were distributed to various local authorities who have established fire brigades. The minimum estimated costs of immediate requirement of fire fighting equipment is between K60 billion and K75 billion. However, this activity has now been transferred to the Department of Infrastructure and Support Services.

Madam Chairperson, you will note that from the Local Government Act, the Minister is mandated to establish fire services in all the districts because it is assumed that even in a village like Chongwe they can have a fire, so we need to have a fire brigade in Chongwe. Obviously because of the fact that …

Dr Scot: Bush fire!

Mrs Masebo: … of course, Guy. You know that thatched huts can catch fire. Madam, we have had very few fire brigades in the country on account that you need colossal amounts of money. The budget cannot take all this and what we have been doing is to encourage the private sector to get into this business for providing fire services so that if Guy Scot’s house is burning and if he thinks that Lusaka City Council is slow, he can phone a private fire service that can get there quickly and assist Lusaka City Council.

Therefore, there is an opportunity for business for the private sector in issues of fire services. However, I am happy to state that this administration has gone forward even under difficult situations, we have began to establish fire services even in rural districts like Nakonde, Chongwe and so on and so forth. I would, therefore, like all hon. Members of Parliament to assist their councils in budgeting for the establishment of the actual fire brigades because there are certain requirements needed to house this equipment.

Coming to Constituency Development Fund (CDF), I note that there has been so many praises on the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing. I want to say that without the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning together with the entire Cabinet in supporting this, it would not have been possible. However, we have all been unanimous on this issue and we appreciate that this is one fund that truly goes down to our electorate and citizens in our districts.

Madam Chairperson, there have been cries to continue increasing this fund and President Mwanawasa has always said that it is important that as we increase, we must also look at the usage of these public funds. I want to commend this House, the current hon. Members who have really tried to live to the expectation of a good leader in terms of ensuring that they do not dip their hands in public funds.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: They have actually supported the ministry in ensuring that their councils do not abuse or misapply this amount of money. I want to also say that please, continue because we need to get to a situation where there will not be any negative audit queries concerning the CDF. At this point it will be easy for us to push the President and his Government for further funds of K2 billion or K5 billion when the system is totally transparent, accountable and clean. You will agree with me that some councils are still grappling with this money and as hon. Members you have come to complain.

All of us need to agree and ensure that the system of utilisation is perfected by closing all the loopholes. The public, local authorities and indeed ourselves as Members must begin to appreciate why these resources are being sent to our councils. When we have reached that stage where everything is smooth, then we can talk about increasing even up to K2 billion or K5 billion. I am sure that the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning will be able to convince His Excellence the President who is very particular about good governance, accountability and zero tolerance to corruption.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Having said that, the amounts have moved from K30 million, then to K100 million and today we are talking about K200 million. Some of the local authorities do not even seem to have the capacity to use that money.

Hon. Member: Shame!

Mrs Masebo: There is no capacity to use that money and so you find that the money is moving into the next civic year and yet we have said that this money must be expended or spent within 12 months. This is a question of lack of capacity and in some cases even lack of understanding of the guidelines. You will note that in the audit report there was mention that some money was not properly used because the hon. Member of Parliament did know the use of this money. That is misleading because the guidelines do not talk about a single hon. Member of Parliament or single Councilor they talk about a committee and District Development Committee (DDC) and the full council which is the final authority. If an hon. Member of Parliament does not attend council meetings or is somewhere else, the council will continue with or without him or her.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Therefore, when a decision is made, it is wrong for anybody to say that the money was misapplied because the councillor did not know its usage. It is important that as hon. Members of Parliament we understand the guidelines because these are cardinal. Let us help our councils to appreciate these guidelines and once we do that, I am sure that by next year we will be talking of K1 billion.

Mr Imasiku: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Madam Chairperson, another important department under my Ministry is the department which is responsible for infrastructure support services. This is a technical department charged with the responsibility of coordinating municipal infrastructure development. Municipal infrastructure means issues like water supply and sanitation, roads, parks, toilets and so on. In addition it provides technical advice to councils and other stakeholders regarding municipal infrastructure which also includes housing.

Madam Chairperson, notable progress was recorded in the water supply and sanitation area in 2007. During the period under review, my Ministry successfully launched the “Make Zambia Clean and Healthy” programme. This saw the re-launching of the Copperbelt Solid Waste Management Company which has been established to cover the entire province with the sole role to ensure that the Copperbelt is clean from Garbage.

Madam Chairperson, in the North-Western Province, 300 boreholes were drilled while in the Luapula Province, thirty out of the planned 330 boreholes were drilled and equipped. Improvements were also made to the water supply in Kafue through financial support to the Lusaka Water and Sewerage Company. Other infrastructure development projects undertaken were the commencement of the water supply project in Kitwe with the support from the Chinese Government.

Madam Chairperson, we have done repairs in water supply in the city area of Gwembe, the rehabilitation of pumps in Kabwe, Lusaka, and other smaller towns. We have constructed improved latrines in four Paramount Chiefs’ palaces and solid waste management in Solwezi, Kasama, Mongu and Livingstone.

Under the European Union (EU) supported Urban Market Development programme, construction of urban markets in Lusaka and Kitwe has continued and has reached an advanced stage. His Excellency the President will be commissioning the Lusaka Market soon.

Madam Chairperson, a ten year national programme dubbed as the National Rural Water Supply and Sanitation programme has been developed to increase access to safe water supply from the current 37 per cent to 80 per cent and improved sanitation from the current 13 per cent to 60 per cent by the year 2050. The total cost for this programme is approximately K1.4 trillion requiring an outlay of K144 billion each year going up to 2015. This programme has been overwhelmingly supported by all stakeholders because it seeks to address the problems of water supply and sanitation at the national level as compared to isolated projects that have been the traditional way of doing things. For 2008, Government has set aside K50 billion as counterpart fund for the national rural water and sanitation programme and the urban and peri-urban water and sanitation programme supported by our cooperating partners.

Madam Chairperson, you will note again that this year we have at least been given K50 billion which we had requested as a result of our plan for the rural water supply and sanitation. I would like to thank the hon. Minister and his Government under the Mwanawasa Administration for making it possible to have this money budgeted this year because that way, this programme will not be a paper programme like has been criticised by Hon. Lubinda. It will be a programme that will be implemented. This year, because the counterpart fund of K50 billion has been put there, we expect the donors to come forward as promised and we expect work to commence.

Madam Chairperson, a further K13 billion has been provided for housing, roads and market construction within the areas where these houses are going to be constructed.

Madam Chairperson, another department which is as important is the Government Valuation Department. This is a specialised Government organ whose main objective is to advise Government on policies related to real estate with particular emphasis on the provision of valuation services. The department offers these valuation services to Central and Local Governments, parastatal companies, as well as to members of the general public. The valuation advice is relied upon by various decision makers in real estate business. The department operates from distinct offices and these are the headquarters in Lusaka under the Ministry of Local Government and Housing; then the southern and northern regions. The headquarters deals mainly with policy and administrative issues of the department while the two regional offices deal with professional and technical issues. In the 2007 Budget, the department had a budget allocation of K12.110 billion and this year 2008, the department has a total provision of K2.89 billion allocated for it to carry out its mandate of providing valuation services to local authorities. You will agree with me that one of the core functions of this department is to help councils update the valuation rolls so that they are able to increase in their revenues. This is one of the remaining sources of revenue for the councils and so the issue of updating valuation rolls is very important to Local Government.

Madam Chairperson, the other department is what we call the Chiefs’ Affairs Department which has incorporated the House of Chiefs. The main functions of the House of Chiefs are spelt out in Articles 130 and 131 of the Constitution of Zambia and these are to be an advisory body to Government on traditional, customary and any other matter referred to it by the President.

Madam Chairperson, in the year under review, the House of Chiefs successfully held two sessions in April and August as provided for in the regulations of the House of Chiefs, 1998. In 2008, we have provided a total of K1.940 billion for conducting these sessions.

We have also allocated some resources towards dispute resolution. In 2007, they had a Budget of K160 million for this activity. To that extent, the House of Chiefs managed to bring to an end the long outstanding succession disputes in the following Chiefdoms: Paramount Chief Chitimukulu, Senior Chief Mushili, Chief Shimunchinga, Chief Shimukunami and Chief Mpamba. In the year 2008, a total sum of K150 billion has been provided to continue with the resolution of various disputes that are still outstanding and that may arise as we go on.

Under the House of Chiefs, we have also provided K6.6 billion for the purchase of vehicles. Last year, we did provide K6.6 billion for the purchase of vehicles that were meant to help chiefs in performing their duties. The original idea was that we buy four vehicles for each province and these were supposed to be put under the Provincial Minister’s charge. However, the chiefs complained to His Excellency and said they wanted personal vehicle. Of course, this money could not buy more than 27 vehicles. After the ministry’s consultations with the chiefs, it was agreed that we buy good second hand vehicles direct from Japan and with this money, I am happy to inform the House that 150 vehicles have so far been purchased and will begin arriving any time towards the end of this month when the first batch is expected in the country.

Madam Chairperson, as you maybe aware, there are 286 chiefs in the country and from last year’s Budget allocation of K6.6 billion we bought 150 vehicles for the chiefs. It leaves us with a balance of 136 vehicles to be purchased.

In this year’s Budget, only K1.3 billion has been allocated for this programme. However, because of the problem of floods, we had to look at other areas to ensure that we get to the K50 billion. As a ministry, we will be applying for a supplementary budget and we hope the House will support us. We will need an addition of K5.3 billion to meet the required 136 vehicles for all the chiefs.

On chiefs and chief’s retainer’s wages, during the year under review, my ministry managed to pay all the outstanding chiefs subsidies and retainers wages which arose as a result of the 16 per cent increment which was effected in April, 2007.

In addition to this, there was an extra 4 per cent that was included on top of the 16 per cent on His Excellency’s instruction to assist chiefs who had electricity in their palaces pay their electricity bills. Of course, we are mindful that there are others whose palaces do not have electricity, but this year, out of that extra 4 per cent, we will be putting some money aside to try and put up some solar panels in areas where the Ministry of Energy and Water Development would not have reached. However, we will be working very closely with them to ensure that all the chiefdoms are lit.

Madam Chairperson, on the Decentralisation Secretariat, I would like to say that it is responsible for the facilitation of the implementation of the National Decentralisation Policy. In 2007, the Ministry of Local Government and Housing commenced a substantive implementation of the policy through the actual transfer of resources to councils. You will note that since the launch of this policy, substantial amounts of resources are now going to the local authorities. That, in itself, is a good step towards implementing decentralisation in the area of fiscal decentralisation.

In its continued effort of implementing the policy, twelve sector devolution workshops for sector ministries were conducted and council restructuring draft strategic plans and organisation structures for all city and municipal councils were developed. Restructuring of district councils is underway with councils in Eastern and Western provinces having been taken through the process.

Madam Chairperson, you will also note that we have, through the help of our co-operating partners, begun to build capacities in our local authorities to prepare them for decentralisation by way of coming up with financial-manuals and audits and, of course, giving more finances to Chalimbana to promote training. This will enable us to begin to see a local Government system that is working and that can easily implement some of the extra functions that the Central Government is giving to the local authorities.

In the 2008 Budget, the department has a total of K3.130,962,567 billion for this programme while in the 2007 Budget, the department had a provision of K4.4 billion. It is important for the hon. Members to note, as we go to the heads, that in some instances they will find that some lines are totally omitted. It is simply because some of the programmes which were under the Department of Physical Planning and Housing have gone to infrastructure. We have harmonised some of those programmes and moved them to various departments where we feel that they will be properly implemented. There are also some reductions because some works have already been done, therefore, we cannot continue putting the same amounts of money. I thought I should make that comment so that we move fast when we come to the heads.

Madam Chairperson, in conclusion, my ministry has prepared its budget from a strategic point of view. As already indicated, the budget has been prepared within the framework of the newly formulated Ministry Strategic Plan for 2007 to 2011. The strategic plan, which is complemented by a new ministry and council structures, is an earnest endeavour to fulfil the national long-term aspiration of uplifting the people’s welfare through improvement in operations of Government and local authorities. As it may be noted, my budget which has been under the terms of the on-going Medium Term Expenditure Framework (MTEF), from 2008 to 2010, actually coincides with the last phase of the Fifth National Development Plan (FNDP), 2008 to 2010.

Madam Chairperson, I wish to recognise the additional financial support given to the functions under my ministry provided in this year’s Budget. This is reflective of the direction that our budget process must take in order to realise the Government’s vision of empowering our people and realising the Millennium Development Goals. It is virtually important that our vision be demonstrated in how we apportion and distribute our meagre resources. In this, we shall be seen to be consistent with our own principles and practices.

Madam Chairperson, while I appreciate the increase in my ministry’s budget allocation, I wish to point out that some critical programmes are still, however, inadequately funded. I, therefore, urge this august House to favourably consider supporting the increase of allocation to these areas in my budget in order to ensure that our delivery of public goods and services meet the expectations of our people and that we firmly make the districts the true focal points of our service delivery. We will come, as a ministry, when the time …

The Chairperson: Order! Hon. Minister, it is better to consider time.

Mrs Masebo: Madam Chairperson, I thank you for the guidance.

We will come, as a ministry, for a supplementary budget, but for now, I just want to thank the House and the Government for the support as well as the increase of 11 per cent that has been reflected in the Ministry of Local Government and Housing. I would like to assure you that my ministry will do its best to ensure that these resources are equitably distributed to all the seventy-two districts in line with the Fifth National Development Plan and the plan of the ministry.

I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Matongo (Pemba): Madam Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to support the Vote of the Ministry of Local Government and Housing and the well considered allocations, although not quite sufficient. We hope that the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning after we have debated and, as you can see, Madam Chairperson, even if one wanted to move an amendment and there is division, they cannot win.

Laughter

Mr Matongo: Therefore, I will merely debate without causing any problems with a view to agreeing that, in future, the two hon. Ministers will incorporate what I am going to say.

First of all, decentralisation is very cardinal. Each district supervises a number of wards; a number of district constituencies; a number of village headmen or indunas and a number of chiefs, surely, forty-four years after independence, we let go the budgetary system to districts. We are not going to wait and think that every district, in terms of administration, will equal Kitwe and Lusaka. At least, we should go to rural areas and develop the people there and with the systems and programmes that this Government has been putting in place, accountability will be established. I want to tell you that rural people are very particular about misusing money that does not belong to them. Funds that go to decentralisation must really not be a huge worry of the Ministry of Finance and National Planning and the Ministry of Local Government and Housing.

The ladies and gentlemen that like not only to dip their long fingers in the cash boxes are not in those areas. Those that want even to walk into the Vote to carry on their heads boxes of money are here in Lusaka. Therefore, what is the problem hon. Minister? Trust us and we will be able to deliver on small projects. You see, decentralisation is being delayed on what, I consider, very flimsy excuses. We have so many people who have retired and retiring at fifty-five is a luxury in this country.

At fifty-five, men and women would have accumulated so much experience. That is why international organisations and international corporations retire their people at sixty-one. So, we have enough manpower to go back home and run these systems if only that hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security could upgrade the retirement age to sixty-one. After all, we are losing our children and we are told in a seminar that you so ably chaired that the HIV/AIDS epidemic is still around. We have to develop two generations before we can clear this epidemic.

Madam Chairperson, I think where we are depleting our manpower because of this disease, we should be able to utilise some of these retired people to go and run rural councils. There is no harm for anybody to go and work in Kaputa because he was born and wants to work there, the same will apply to Choma, Mufumbwe and other places. It depends on where you come from.

Madam Chairperson, therefore, I want to urge the hon. Minister that it is a must to decentralize and so we should proceed with it while we put in checks and balances to ensure that resources do not disappear between Lusaka and Choma, Choma and Mbabala, Choma and Singani or Choma and Pemba. In these areas, nobody takes what does not belong to him or her, therefore, I urge the Cabinet to work on decentralisation.

Madam, decentralisation will bring about responsibility to people in rural areas. I will go back to days of the (LUA) schools where you went. People were very responsible for their schools. When we grabbed everything to the centres, capitals, and provinces, we have seen very little development. In this regard, I urge the Government to move on decentralisation. It should not be only by word of mouth, it should empower the people with sufficient human resources, financial resources and equipment like graders to do local arrangements.

Madam Chairperson, I would also like to talk about Constituency Development Fund (CDF). Much has been said on CDF and Hon. Magande will argue with you and say, but 100 per cent increase - what else do we want? Those are numbers, it is 100 per cent of 1 per cent.

Laughter

Mr Matongo: It is very small, therefore, 100 per cent of 200 is equally insufficient for our purposes. We would have wanted the hon. Minister to deal with this matter to go up to K1 billion. It should not only be figurative or percentage wise increments. This money will deal with short roads which are known as agriculture roads. This money will deal with culverts which Government may not think very much about because they are in far flung areas where our children pass when going to schools.

Madam Chairperson, K1 billion would do a lot as CDF, we will even forget about looking for school desks from the Ministry of Education who may not even have the money to buy desks for us. Even if they buy desks, they would end up being distributed in Kasama or Livingstone when the school desks are supposed to go to Mazabuka or Itezhi-tezhi. It is these distortions of distribution of wealth which are left to districts, provinces and capital cities that actually make this Government look very bad. There is no other reason at all. Otherwise, this is a very fairly good Government if only they could give us what we want.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Matongo: Madam, if decentralisation is properly utilised, it can bring quicker development to the rural people than the Vision 2010 and the Fifth National Development Plan (FNDP). Those things are only understood in this House and at the bomas. The rural people want to see a desk in a classroom, a teacher’s house and children going to school. These are the basic parameters of their perception of development. Therefore, I urge the hon. Minister that really, while we appreciate the 100 per cent, these are only mere numbers and it will not be far fetched,…

Dr Scott talking to Mrs Masebo

Mr Matongo:… hon. Member for Lusaka Central, I request you to persuade the hon. Minister you are engaging there to persuade Hon. Magande to do something. He is not very difficult to persuade especially when you are a Cabinet Minister. He might consider bringing in a Supplementary Budget and all my colleagues on my left, all those behind me and those whom I am representing…

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Matongo: … will agree with me that a Supplementary Budget is needed so that this figure can come up to K1 billion...

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Matongo: …and you will see the changes that will happen with that amount. I would like to state that the rural people are much wiser than most of us. The reason I am saying so is that when I first went to the village to campaign, the villagers asked me very basic questions because I had spent so many years all over the world and doing all sorts of things. The things they said were more reasonable than the things I demonstrate here like macro-economic parameters. These are very basic issues and I have learnt that by listening to them, you can even remove the power of the non-governmental organisations who simply serve themselves instead of the local people.

Madam Chairperson, the chiefs’ affairs are very important. It is good to note that the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing has started with the chiefs although I do not know the modus operandi of vehicles you are providing to them. Therefore, we would like to advise you that in Pemba, we also have a number of village headmen and you can also provide them with something. I think a few bicycles for village headmen would be a very good consideration for them even before elections come. You should be generous sometimes. When these vehicles arrive in Pemba, I would be saying I negotiated for them because I interact with the Ministers.

Interruptions

Mr Matongo: Yes, hon. Members, if you do not say that to your people, where you come from and however you look,…

Laughter

Mr Matongo:…you will be missing a point because we are all Government here. Therefore, I want to persuade the hon. Minister to buy bicycles from TATA. The other day I saw the hon. Minister giving some nice ladies bicycles. Surely, you could buy vehicles at a cheaper price and give them as loans to chiefs and as for village headmen and a few indunas, they can be given bicycles for free. That would be appreciated very much. Hon. Magande, you just need to add this small supplementation. Actually, people in Chilanga and those in east Chivuna would appreciate more if you took a few bicycles there. I can assure you (pointing at the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning) that …

The Chairperson: Order! Speak through the Chair.

Mr Matongo: … they will be your campaign managers the next time you want to come.

Laughter

Mr Matongo: Madam Chairperson, I am sorry but I have to persuade him to try and help us.

Madam Chairperson, finally, bicycles, motor vehicles, CDF, water and sanitation are the good things we hear from the hon. Minister and we hope that boreholes will be sunk through out the country except in areas like where some of my in laws come from in this House because you cannot sink a borehole in water.

Interruptions

Dr Machungwa: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Matongo: Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear! 

Dr Scott (Lusaka Central): Madam Chairperson, before the hon. Member for Mbala comes in with a point of order to celebrate his winning the petition in the Supreme Court…

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Scott: …let me say that listening to the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing, she is so sweet and convincing that as the English say, “you would think butter would not melt in her mouth.”

Laughter

Dr Scott: Actually she is a hard boiled and thick skinned politician …

Laughter

Dr Scott: … but we understand each other because we were both taught by the same educator. We were taught the game at the same academy.

Laughter

Dr Scott: Madam Chairperson, I would like to make a constructive proposal, which I believe will get the support of both the Opposition and the Executive.

If you take a drive in my constituency, starting from the center of Lusaka and up through Church Road or Independence Avenue, and carry on in an easterly direction, you will be convinced for a while that you are in a civilised and developing country as opposed to under developed. If you continue passed Woodlands round about, you will get into trouble. If you bear right, you get into trouble because you will jomba in the new road to Chalala, and if you bear a little bit left, into Harry Mwanga Nkumbula Road to Nyumba Yanga, which is a horror show. The main road is like a quarry. Bauleni is also the same.

We all have a situation where part of our constituency looks up to-date and well maintained and the other part is an eye sore. We have to admit that if we take a shooting match of the whole constituency a face lift would take billions of kwacha worth of infrastructure rehabilitation or repair.

Madam Chairperson, I would like to propose that when Government brings the anticipated and long over due mining taxation regime, which it should have brought eighteen months ago or even three years ago, estimated at US$400 million just for this year, rather than being sequested somewhere so that the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning or the Bank of Zambia can claim money market gains with it to further the value of the Zambian Kwacha to the disadvantage of our farmers, it should be spent on infrastructure development.

Madam, if you divide US$400 million by three, you get US$3 million per constituency, which is K11 billion per constituency per year. Now, with that sort of money, even Hon. Machungwa can be home and dry in his swamp.

Laughter

Dr Scott: That amount of money makes the K200 million CDF in this year’s Budget, or even the K1 billion increment being advocated for or the K400 million for next year look like peanuts. We could actually make Nyumba Yanga look like part of New York if we spent that kind of money on a regular basis for a few years on infrastructure development and rehabilitation. It does not have to come in the form of CDF, but under the management of the board supervision of the local councils who know what they want in their area.

It is not a question for some central authority to handle. Even if you had use for half of that money to build and rehabilitate schools, you would still remain with half of it and you would be able to make tar roads instead of hiring the Zambia National Service (ZNS) to grade them, by a grader operator who has been trained, I do not know where, to make a canal in the middle of the area that is safer.

Mrs Masebo: The Sata Academy.

Dr Scott: The Sata Academy was the one which taught us to do it properly, or have you forgotten?

Laughter

Dr Scott: Madam, I would like to appeal to hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing to battle with us and convince the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning that this is the proper use for Zambia’s windfall. If the price of copper should go down again, we have to accept that we cannot build so many kilometres of roads and procure thousands of schools desks, we have to accept that.

Mrs Masebo: The CDF is K400 million.

Dr Scott: K400 million?

Madam Chairperson: Order! Speak through the Chair.

Dr Scott: Madam, I am just being corrected that the CDF for this year is actually K400 million and not K200 million as I stated earlier. However, it is still peanuts …

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Dr Scott: …compared to what would happen if we took the mining windfall tax that we are told is coming and allocated it on an equitable basis among the constituencies, and spent it instead of sequestering it and feeling that we have a strong Kwacha because the money is sitting in a box under the bed, that is not the correct way to treat money.

Madam Chairperson, one has got to say that in this sector, there are questions relating to the relationship between the central government and some of the councils. In some respects, it is a cordial relationship and in others, it is less cordial. Sometimes, it reminds me of the long running battle between Margaret Thatcher, then Prime Minister of Britain and Ken Livingstone, Mayor of the London City Council. Margaret Thatcher, like our own iron lady, who I hope does not …

Interruptions

Dr Scott: We have our own iron lady.

Hon. Government Member interjected

Dr Scott: Our ladies are copper if you clearly …

Madam Chairperson: Order! Speak through the Chair. Do not listen to those making running commentaries.

Dr Scott: Madam Chairperson, to recap the history, Margaret Thatcher eventually dissolved the Greater London City Council to get at Ken Livingstone. The result was that she was toppled from power for being so unpopular with this move and Ken Livingstone is still the mayor of London. Therefore, I think that there is some implicit danger in the course of action which Margaret Thatcher took.

Madam, there are questions to be asked. Just the day before yesterday, His Honour the Vice-President was in Kanyama telling anyone who would listen, which I presume was a few people anyway …

Laughter

Dr Scott: …that the Kanyama Constituency was flooded because it had been under the control of the Opposition for seven years. It is the suggestion that the floods had somehow something to do with the Opposition. He was accompanied by some kind of pastor with some fake theology …

Laughter

Dr Scott: …who was telling anyone who would listen that voting against the Government was a sin.

Laughter

Dr Scott: He associated himself with this sentiment. This is the same Vice-President who, at the cathedral of the Holy Cross, could not fulsomely commend the late Hon. Henry Mtonga on his life time achievements, including his work as a Member of Parliament, in contrast to some people who have suggested that he might have been of a lighter complexion, who are just trouble makers in the House.

Laughter

Madam Chairperson: Order! Hon. Dr Scott, the Chair realises that it very tempting for hon. Members to digress from the Budget and bring into this House the outside issues of campaigns in Kanyama. Let me guide that if you have to, let it be strictly in line with what we are debating now. Let us leave out Kanyama Constituency. You have all the time in the night to go and campaign. Now, it is the budget of Local Government and Housing and Loans and Investments that we are debating. 

You may continue.

Dr Scott: Madam Chairperson, I would not dream of arguing with you so I will change the subject.

I would like to illustrate this question of the relationship between the Ministry of Local Government and Housing and the councils with two examples which point in different directions.

One example, which I thought was rather negative is that we got a request as a council in Lusaka from the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing to approve a motion to the effect that the Lusaka City Water and Sewerage Company should be extended to cover Chongwe and the rest of Lusaka Province.  The up shot of the debate was that there were places in Lusaka where raw sewerage leaking from pipes and there were places in Lusaka with no water above the ground and that until NWASCO was able to do its job in the city, why should it thin out its resources to go to Chongwe and Kafue. We turned it down. We then had it returned to us with a request from the hon. Minister that if we did not pass it, she would consider dissolving the council.

 Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Scott: With that, I would say, that is direct Government from the centre, that is not any kind of decentralisation if the councils cannot make a decision that affects itself and its citizens.  We are not talking as national leaders, we are talking as leaders of Lusaka. Our limit as councillors, when we are sitting is to represent the people in our city or district and also to look after their interests and differentiate them to our interests.

Madam Chairperson, at the same time, I have to say that the council and various structures including the ministry have worked very well together in corporation in Lusaka this rainy season and before the rainy season so much so that we have had one very small outbreak of cholera that was instantly contained.

 Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Scott: The shallow wells in most of Lusaka have been buried. All the latrines have been limed. Chlorine is being applied left, right and centre including in paddles and the ocean of Kanyama if I may mention it. We actually seem to have this scourge under control. This is the consequence of genuine corporation and leadership on the part of the council and the hon. Minister although the original plan was generated in the council pursuant to the motion in the council. The other day, His Honour the Vice-president mentioned it when he was with his pastor friend, but nonetheless, it should be on the record that it is possible for the central Government and the Local Government to work together even when they have different political philosophy because at the end of the day, they all have the same people to serve.

I thank you for your indulgence and patient.

 Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Sinyangwe (Matero): Madam Chairperson, I would like to thank you for giving me the opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Vote.

First of all, I would like to start by commending the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing. She has done very well, we should give credit where it id due.

 Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sinyangwe: Madam Chairperson, I said this last year and I am saying the same this year. As she said, she has not looked at constituencies and who is there, but she has looked at constituencies as her own constituencies and I am sure we have all benefited.

Madam Chairperson, I will begin by saying something on decentralisation. I hope the decentralisation in the Local Government is going to yield results. It is always tempting for the people who are devolving or giving power to give with one hand and retain with the other. I hope we are going to give the councils the authority to run these councils so that we can be able to see the fruits and that we do not have anybody to blame if things are not moving. While we look at bigger things in the Local Government, we seem to have let the other things that we may term small but very serious left loose.

 Madam Chairperson, I will talk about our markets. We have said in this House that cadres are still running our markets. They are collecting levies that are supposed to go to councils to improve the markets and other services - especially ba MMD.

 Laughter

Mrs Sinyangwe: We have talked and I have said I will support what is right. I have called the council on several times to come and see what is happening in Matero at the markets.  I am there to give them the support because I want the right things to be done but they are still dragging their feet.

When you come to Matero, there are no markets to talk about. This is a rainy season and people are putting vegetables on the floor. You know what happens in the evenings when people are drunk, the following morning, they put vegetables there and we go and buy and the next day we have sick children. This is contributing. If all that money was coming, I am sure we could build better markets where we could trade. It is the same thing even in the bus stops. Today, I received a complaint that these call boys are stopping people to get off the buses from certain bus stops because they want them to get off from certain points where they collect money. We cannot allow a situation like this to go on.  We should look into this issue to make sure that the right thing is done.

Madam Chairperson, the other things I would like to talk about is the illegal allocation of plots. I have said and I said it before that we are not going to support the illegal allocation of plots but unfortunately, even now, cadres are allocating plots.

I said it in this House when we were debating Local Government and Housing that at the stadium in Matero, they are building illegal houses. I have written, I have spoken and nothing is being done. Surely, we do not expect a Member of Parliament to go and remove these people who are putting up illegal structures. It is not only affecting the people there, but it is also affecting development. Where shall I put a school when we need a school? Where shall we put a clinic if we just let our cadres go loose because they campaigned for us, therefore, we must now let them do what they want. Surely, there is a Government in this country. We should move in and stop this culture, it is bad. I am therefore, challenging the Government that if they will not stop this scourge in Matero now, they will never stop it because you have a Member of Parliament who is going to support sanity and doing what is right.

Madam Chairperson, sadly our council also is allocating plots in all empty spaces. I am sure when the bazungus were building these places, they knew that they needed to leave spaces because tomorrow people might be more than what they are and we may need social facilities here and there. But even in the empty spaces that are between the houses, they allocate plots. They are now even allocating plots on gazetted roads with tarmac, they close and allocate plots and yet, I have been talking over the same issue for over eight months. It is still there and it is very sad. You know, it is not good to just talk about things, but we must implement and act because if we act then we know that tomorrow the right thing will be done.

Madam Chairperson, what happens is that if I do the wrong thing and nobody corrects me, tomorrow another one will do the wrong thing and we shall now start believing that that the wrong thing is right, therefore, we must look into this very seriously.

 Madam Chairperson, let me come to the “Keep Zambia Clean Campaign”. Again, I must say that we did very well. So far, there has not been Matero on TV and the cholera cases though now, there are one or two cases. Why is it so?

Despite the problems that we had, we buried the shallow wells without any problems at all because I sensitised the people in Matero and explained the importance of burying the shallow wells. What is happening now? The water that this Government promised the people is not there. The tap leaders, who provide water to the people, give them one hour a day since there is a problem of power as a result, water is not there. What are we going to see next? People will start to dig shallow wells. Once they dig shallow wells, we shall see people die. Madam Chairperson, it is not just a question of coming up with a programme but it is about monitoring, evaluating and ensuring that the right thing is done is very important. I beg of you to ensure that people have water because water is life.

Madam Chairperson, allow me to also talk about garbage collection. Garbage should be collected instead of sitting down to dialogue for it to be collected. We must have a system for garbage collection if people have to pay for the services. However, we have to find a way of providing these services. If you moved into Matero today, you would be surprised to find garbage in most of the places and this is rainy season, where are we heading to?

The other issue I wish to talk about is the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). We appreciate that you have given us K400 million but it is still not sufficient. If we had a lot of money, we would plan within our means because we are the ones who understand our people, know what they want and it will make your job easier. People will praise you as a working Government because we will be doing what is right in the constituencies.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mrs Sinyangwe: So, giving us more money does not mean that you lose out. However, if you say that the councils have no capacity, I would agree to that because even the Government ministries have no capacity. Where is the K900 billion? You failed to spend it. Therefore, it is better to train and give people the capacity they need, so that they are able to manage and plan. When people manage and do things for themselves, they even look after them properly because they will believe that the programmes and infrastructure belong to them and will guard them jealously.

Lastly, Madam Chairperson, I would like to talk about the cemeteries. My heart bleeds.

Mr Sichilima: Why?

Mrs Sinyangwe: One day we are all going to die and go there. If you go to Chingwere Cemetery, you will find that the road is bad although people go there everyday. Surely, you do not expect a Member of Parliament with her meagre CDF to do up the roads. People use that road everyday. I hope Hon. Magande will look at me with pity, so that we can give the people a good road. They are suffering because they have lost their beloved ones but they should be able …

Mr Magande: On a point of order!

Mr Kambwili: Ba mudala pa mwanakashi!

Laughter

Mrs Sinyangwe: … to travel well and move on a good road to go and put their beloved ones to rest. I hope Hon. Magande will look into this issue.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hachipuka (Mbabala): Madam Chairperson, in appreciating the submission by the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mrs Masebo), I wish to support this particular aspect of the budget.  Madam Chairperson, before I go any further, I would like to bring in a new issue in relation to the Constituency Development Fund (CDF).

Madam, I want to discuss the administration of the CDF but before I do that, I want to thank the hon. Minister for recognising the fact that the committees that are charged to superintend over the CDF have costs as well. Under the CDF guidelines, there is provision for a 10 per cent which is intended to be used towards administration. The hon. Minister was able to extend this in her recent circular such that the committees can also access it. For example, in my constituency, I do not have a problem because I have disciplined and dedicated committee members who, unfortunately, come from far distances because under her guidelines, we chose that each ward must be represented on the committee. With a view to making it very transparent, we feel that each ward must be represented on that committee within the terms of reference in terms of the skills that she directed we must utilise. However, our problem is distances. Our problem is one that …

Mr Sichilima entered the Assembly Chamber.

Laughter

Mr Hachipuka: Sorry, I forgot to welcome my mulamu back into the House because he was sitting with his arms outside the House. Welcome back, Member of Parliament for Mbala.

Ms Changwe: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichilima: On a point of order.

Laughter

Mr Hachipuka: That is precisely the point, we want you to be a Cabinet Minister and so stop those points of order.

Laughter

Mr Sichilima: On a point of order!

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Matongo: Mwapusukeni mukwai!

Mr Hachipuka: Madam Chairperson, the issue I am raising is that we should not leave the managing of CDF only to the council officials, especially if we expect the committees to meet two times in a year. In my constituency, I would not permit this. As a result, I have been spending my own money to enable my committees to meet as regularly as possible at my expense …

Mr Matongo: To monitor!

Mr Hachipuka: … to monitor. If I left it to the council, the council officials will demand for a car, fuel and need many things for them to come to my constituency which is roughly 60 km or 70 km away from town. In the process, if we have to buy materials out of the CDF as committees, we have to ensure that the transporters deliver the materials to their required destinations for the projects. As a committee, we make sure that we go to inspect the projects and that responsibility should be rested with committees rather than with the officials of the council.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hachipuka: At one time we left this to council officials and we were unable to meet as regularly as possible and in the process, we lost roofing sheets, cement and most materials. Giving that responsibility to the committee and directing a bulk part of that 10 per cent towards that committee to superintend the project, does help. Our records have been straight and our committee is able to sit even without me because they know what is expected of them.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hachipuka: This is because we made sure that decent men and women were put on that committee in line with hon. Minister’s instructions.

However, I would like to urge her to seriously look into the utilisation of the 10 per cent and look into the authority vested into the committee versus a committee vested  in the council itself. You will find that many constituencies that did not receive any moneys in the previous year, did not properly supervise the projects. Projects are in far fetched places and we have made sure that every ward must benefit. This means that the supervision of these projects need to be extensive.

Madam Chairperson, I just thought that I should dwell on this particular issue because the rest of the issues have been covered in the general debate and in the speech that has been given by the hon. Minister but I make a serious appeal that she reconsiders the utilisation of the 10 per cent.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Matongo: Hear, hear!

Mr Chimbaka (Bahati): Madam Chairperson, thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the debate on this Vote. I will be brief and to the point.

Madam Chairperson, it is a well-known fact that the Minister of Local Government and Housing is very hard working and she deserves all the praises without fear or favour. However, I want to point out some other things which must be worked on. The capacities of council employees need to be addressed very seriously, hon. Minister.

 I lived in Chalimbana for a longer period of time and I appreciate the services Chalimbana College for Local Government used to give to the people. We should address the issue of recapitalising Chalimbana Local Government College with a view to sharpening the skills and capacities of the employees who must equate your standards in terms of judicious performing of functions, as town clerks, planners and whoever we desire in a local Government. It is very important that this college must be addressed seriously. The infrastructure there must be updated and if anything there is need for you to construct more classrooms in order to match the developments in our councils.

Madam Chairperson, I would like to talk about police in the councils. I recall and most of us will recall that during the federal days council police persons were very highly respected, in that they played a key role in policing in communities. They addressed issues of illegal brewing, nuisance and also prosecuted basing on the by-laws each council and municipality regulated. However, I wish the hon. Minister to address that issue. These policemen if they were adequately trained and well oriented they would be able to reduce on the number of nuisance that arise out of ignorance by the people in all our townships and cities in the country.

Madam Chairperson, I recall when Michael Sata was the Minister of Local Government and Housing, he legislated a lot of laws which were meant to curb nuisance. If these laws were revisited and implemented and reinforced, we would see sanity in the cities. The absence of effective policing by our council police is what has led to the mushrooming of illegal structures, people urinating in awkward places, drunkenness and throwing of litre anywhere. If the police are inadequate, then there is need for the ministry to employee more council police officers to police our townships and villages.

Madam Chairperson, the other issue I want to raise is about water reticulation and the formation of utility companies that the hon. Minister has been talking about.  As for Luapula, we have had Luapula Water and Sewerage Company on paper for sometime now. They had meetings, but we would want the inauguration of this company so that we expedite action and begin looking forward to have this utility company so that it can service the people out there. Mansa town in particular, does not even have a well identified and addressed sewerage system. It has been blocked for a long time now and this is contributing to people drinking very unsafe water.

Madam Chairperson, I would also like to talk about the issue of council identities. I recall in federal days, those who lived in municipalities like I did, council vehicles were identified by their colour. This is one way we can reduce on abuse of council vehicles. For example, if we adopted two colours green and yellow for Lusaka and label the vehicles Lusaka City Council, it will be very easy for anybody or the Transport Controller to identify the vehicles. He would also be able to know where the vehicles are going and the reason why they are going there. At present, when one is driving a council vehicle nobody would know that it belongs to the council because they look like private cars and they are being abused in the night by using them for private businesses.

With these remarks, I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Kasongo (Bangweulu): Madam Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to join other hon. Members, who have ably supported this vote. You will recall, Madam Chairperson that the decentralisation policy was launched four years ago with a lot of funfair and all of us were convinced beyond doubt, but within the shortest time possible, the vision of the Government of the day would be translated into action. Madam Chairperson, four years down the line, no effort has been made to implement that brilliant vision. It is currently gathering dust in the Ministry of Local Government and Housing. We need an explanation.

Madam Chairperson, a review of the same process will indicate and this is something that the hon. Minister must address sufficiently. A review of the same policy will indicate that the major huddle which has been associated with our failure, to translate that vision into action is the structure that has been created to implement the same vision. The structure is too weak so to speak, you cannot expect a director in the same Ministry of Local Government and Housing to move that vision forward. It is practically impossible and it is too young. We need to raise the profile of that document.

I would like to suggest through you, Madam Chairperson, that if the policy is going to be translated into action, the structure must be transferred to the Office of the Vice-President or even the President himself. Otherwise, you cannot expect a junior person to translate that vision into action, a director for that matter. It is not possible. This is because the same director is going to be answerable to the Permanent Secretary in the ministry. The same director will be answerable to other organs above his office. That officer is too junior in my view to translate that vision into action.

I would like to suggest through you, Madam Chairperson, that the structure must be given that political stance. The ministry responsible for the implementation of the policy must admit that the junior officer has no powers to give instructions to permanent secretaries in the province, or even those permanent secretaries in our respective ministries. If we are talking about devolution of power, we are talking about other ministries at the centre surrendering part of their powers to the province and district level and so on. That cannot be done.

Once, a director writes a letter to a permanent secretary in our respective ministries in Lusaka to surrender part of their powers to the same local authorities. That cannot be done because he is a junior officer. Upon receipt of that letter, they will ask him to follow protocol, because as far as they are concerned the permanent secretary responsible for the ministry is above his office. That is why it has taken us four years to translate that vision into action.

I would like to emphasise that point, Madam Chairperson, that if you want to see progress along the same line and vision that you created four years ago, we must take that structure to the Office of the Vice-President and ministers should be part of the committee that will be responsible for translating that vision into action. Otherwise, at the level of a director, you will be talking here and so on about decentralisation but we are not going to achieve anything and that is a point.

Who is a director by the way, in the eyes of a permanent secretary in the Ministries of Health, Local Government and Housing and others? In terms of protocol, that person has no powers.

Madam Chairperson, through you, and I am happy that the Leader of Government Business in the House is present, I want to plead for the creation of a political committee at the Office of the Vice-President. The Vice-President should be able to chair that committee which should comprise of hon. Ministers and if the Government so wishes, permanent secretaries should also be incorporated. Not a director because he is a junior officer. I am speaking with authority because I know the powers of a director. I was a permanent secretary and a director could not give me instructions.

Mr D Mwila: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: It is a contradiction because a director is too junior. Even a write-up that he can send to respective ministries cannot even be supported and respected. So that is the huddle that the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing is facing. No matter how best she tries to influence other hon. Cabinet Ministers to support her, it is impossible.

Madam Chairperson, mind you, power is sweet and nobody would be willing to surrender it to the provinces and districts unless that influence came from the top, either by the President himself or the Vice President through a committee of hon. Cabinet Ministers. That is my free advice and very timely otherwise my colleague, the hon. Minister, will spend ten years without implementing that document.

Right now at district level there is literally nothing that is taking place although sometimes the Government comes and tells us that as hon. Members of Parliament, we are councillors and that we should assist to make the process translated into action. We have no powers. All this power is with the Central Government. That is why the hon. Minister, if you understood her correctly, said that if we are not going to take action along the suggestions that they are making, we should not come and make noise. We have to make noise to influence her and make sure that certain things are implemented at district level. Otherwise, district councils are just talking shops which have no powers at the moment and there is nothing that they can do.

All hon. Ministers are members of the same local authorities but let me ask one of them to indicate to me how best they can influence decisions in the councils because all the resolutions that we make will have to be forwarded to the province and from the province to the ministry and the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing will be the last authority. If we make a resolution relating to the Ministry of Health, that resolution will have to come to the ministry. These are contradictions.

So if they want to see that devolution of power, I beg them to change the structure. They have to move away from that structure where they have given “artificial powers” to the director at the Ministry of Local Government and Housing.

Madam Chairperson, the Hon. Minister should influence the Vice-President to take charge of that policy and I can assure you that if we are going to use that window, we are going to achieve a lot. We have said it several times that we would like to see districts at the centre of development. That cannot be achieved if, for example, powers are not transferred from the centre to the districts or even provinces. That is impossible.

Mrs Masebo: Next Point?

Laughter

Mr Kasongo: A mayor or council secretary cannot influence other players at district level. It is not possible. They will tell him or her in no uncertain terms that they are not answerable to him or her. All these operatives at district level, be they district agriculture officers or whatever titles you give them, report to their respective ministries and there is no way a local authority, even a councillor, can influence all these people. If the Government wants to see development at the lowest level of our system, it should make sure that power is transferred to the district. This can only be done if the same powers are legalised. Right now we are talking about decentralisation but even the so-called district commissioners have no powers …

Mr D Mwila: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo:  because if they try to influence decisions at district level, they will be told in no uncertain terms by, for example, the director of health that he or she reports to the provincial director of health and subsequently to the permanent secretary in the Ministry of Health.

Madam Chairperson, you can confirm with others who are here that district commissioners have no powers or control over district leaders because they are still reporting to their respective ministries. So I plead with the hon. Minister to take note of that. The point I want to emphasis here, because repetitions are not allowed in this House, is that the Vice-President should chair that committee which should consist of hon. Cabinet Ministers and permanent secretaries may also be incorporated and then you will see results within the shortest possible time.

Madam Chairperson, the other important point relates to feeder roads. We are happy that, at least, they have given what I call “artificial powers” to local authorities to be in charge of this activity. I can assure you that there is nothing that is going to take place because once a road is selected to be worked upon by the council a recommendation has to be made to the province, that in turn is going to make a recommendation to the Ministry of Works and Supply. Even tenders are supposed to be done at the Central Government. So what powers have been given to local authorities in terms of maintaining feeder roads? This is a contradiction. That is why we are talking about impassable feeder roads in so many places because of lack of power at district level.

Mr D Mwila: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: The Government is singing songs here that local authorities are now given powers to be selecting feeder roads and so on. They have no powers. What powers have you given them? Tell me through the Chair. They have no powers because even tender procedures are still being done in Lusaka where changes can even be made on the basis of the roads that would be more appealing to the people in charge of the tender procedures. So can the Government redo this. The moment the local authorities are designated as the entities that will be selecting feeder roads to be worked upon, they must be given sufficient legal powers to undertake those projects.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: Otherwise our colleagues are leading artificial lives and so on. They should not even talk about having decentralised. Where?

Mr Sichilima: Imwe pwisheni mwikalefye.

Mr Kasongo: As far as we are concerned in Samfya, they have done nothing. Kaputa is still answerable to Lusaka as well as Chongwe and many other districts. What do they mean by decentralisation? They are saying they have done something when even Mbala is still answerable to Lusaka.

Mr Sichilima: On a point of order, Madam!

Hon. PF Members: Ikalafye iwe!

Mr Kasongo: Even when these people make their press conferences about maize which has not been collected, they refer to the Central Government and so on. So can we stop singing this song and be seen to be more serious. We have been waiting for this effort to be translated into action for a long time and we are going to give them credit but as of now they have done literally nothing and I give them zero.

I thank you, Madam.

Interruptions

Mr Imasiku (Liuwa): Madam Chairperson, I also want to thank you for allowing me to add my voice to this very important debate on the Vote.

To begin with, just like any other hon. Member that has debated, I would like to commend the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing for the good job that she is doing.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Imasiku: Madam, everybody has commended her and it will not be applicable for me not to say the same. Why should we commend her for that job? It is because she has made a lot of achievements, one of which is the launching of the ‘Keep Zambia Clean Campaign’ which is a record which she will go with in the history of this country.

Mr Sichilima: Congratulate me also!

Mr Imasiku: Madam, I know that Hon. Sichilima is back and he wants us to congratulate him on being comfortable in this House now …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Imasiku: … so, he wants to register his presence.

Madam, one of the issues on which we must congratulate her is the purchasing of the 150 vehicles for all the constituencies. I think everybody must really give her a pat on the back. These vehicles are well intended and they will be bought. They are coming and immediately they come, I am sure even Hon. Ntundu will be very happy.

Madam, the purpose of these vehicles is to ‘Keep Zambia Clean’. All of us who are very anxious to see the country clean wish her well for this meaningful development.

Madam, one other issue is the rural water supply programme. I think everybody has really reckoned as they already said that this is a very well come programme. I only hope that this will trickle to Liuwa Constituency where people think that because we have plenty of water then we do not need wells. To the contrary, we need wells in Liuwa and I also hope that the roads will reach Liuwa Constituency.

The housing scheme is also a welcome programme and once this programme is implemented, we hope to easy the congestion of accommodation in this country.

Madam, I think you cannot exhaust all the points because the list is endless except to say that all of us here have really welcomed the issue of the CDF. The CDF rose from K30 million to K60 million and now it is at K400 million I am sure the hon. Minister and this listening Government will one day bring this one to a K1 billion.

Madam, constituencies like Liuwa which sometimes people think does not exist, if I had a billion in my pocket or in my constituency, I will be able to do a lot of other things, which perhaps other departments are ignoring. I have a lot of schemes to be done in my constituency.  At the moment, we have only three rural health centres. I think if I am given a K’ billion, I would construct two more health centres; rehabilitate a school and would work on other developmental projects.

I want to urge the hon. Minister to think over this K’ billion issue because all of us need it.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Imasiku: Madam, whenever I debate, I want to zero to one item and this time I want to talk about public health in the local authorities. This is one field where most of us may not spend time discussing issues concerning public health. I want to give a challenge to the local authorities, the public health officers and environmental officers to appreciate the good will of the Government. The political will to make sure that the local authority is functioning well. Gone are the days when public health officers were trying to improve all issues in the country but it was very difficult because there was no political will.

Madam, I remember when I was in Kabwe, a health officer closed a rest house in Serenje, but when the Minister heard about it, he said: Can you open it. Now I know that this hon. Minister we have today cannot tell the local authority or whoever is responsible to reopen a filthy hotel or guest house because she means well.

Madam, I am imploring the health officers to take note of the following issues which currently under the atmosphere we are having, if we pursue them, will make this country look clean and health.

Madam, if you look at the buildings in councils, you will note that the buildings’ standards have gone down because at one time there was no law. In other words, although the law was there, people were not allowed to use it. However, at this moment in time, we have a system in place or political will where if the councils want to make these public buildings clean, they will enforce the law because there will be nobody to stop them.

There were times when the public health officers in the council and the Ministry of Health wanted to close or force the council to only renew or grant a licence after inspecting the premises. Unfortunately, the councils just waved that because they did not care. I remember one time, when we tried to clean Kapiri Mposhi and Kabwe, one Minister who was there by then in local authority after making those laws, a few weeks or months later, changed the law and those people were called and were identified from the streets as people from the Office of the President. That was a shame, and that is how health standards deteriorated because there was no will by Government to assist the people.

Madam, solid waste is one issue which we want to emphasis to these councils and from the speech by the hon. Minister we heard that on the Copperbelt, there is Copperbelt Solid Waste Management Programme. Why can other councils not have the same?

Mr Sichilima: On a point of order, Sir.

Interruptions

Mr Imasiku: We are urging the councils to take opportunities which the hon. Minister has given. She has allowed and has even instituted one solid waste programme on the Copperbelt. We urge all councils like the City of Lusaka and others to take heed and use these facilities. They can even borrow money and make …

Mr Sichilima: On a point of Order!

Mr Imasiku: … Madam, Hon. Sichilima always raises points of order when I am debating and he is the only one who does that.

Madam, another issue of importance also …

Mr Sichilima: On a point of order, Madam!

Madam Chairperson: A point of order is raised, but before the hon. Deputy Minister of Energy and Water Development starts speaking, I hope that is a point of order on procedure. The hon. Deputy Minister has already been welcomed in this House, therefore, there is no need for interruption if it is a point of order on recognition. If it is on procedure, you may go ahead.

Laughter

Mr Sichilima: Madam Chairperson, as a matter of procedure this one is very serious. I did not wish to disrupt the good speaker. Is it in order for Hon. J.M. Phiri to come in this House dressed in Patapata known as Jesus? You have guided us before and there she is.

Mrs J M Phiri raised one of her slippers.

Mr Sichilima: I need your serious ruling.

Madam Chairperson: The Chair is grateful for that and also grateful to Mrs J. M. Phiri for raising the pair of slippers referred to. That is indeed, not part of our dress code in this House and therefore, Mrs J.M. Phiri is requested to leave to go and put on the right kind of shoes. Will the hon. Member continue, please.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs C. J. M. Phiri left the Assembly Chamber.

Mr Imasiku: I am relieved in that the hon. Deputy Minister was not raising a point of order on me. With this short time remaining, I want to emphasise on one issue, and that is the food safety. You will realise that people in Zambia are at the mess of the food handlers, people who produce food and people who provide food in their restaurants and so on.

Madam Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours

[MADAM CHAIRPERSON in the Chair]

Mr Imasiku: Madam Chairperson, before business was suspended, I was just saying that it is the duty of local authorities to ensure that food quality and food safety for the people they are looking after is assured. I would like to urge the local authorities to make use of these provisions which are here.

The hon. Minister who is here today may not be there tomorrow and in her stead would be another hon. Minister who may not guard such type of rules as the case was at some time which I sighted.

Madam Chairperson, if you went to the market today, you would find dry fish which is very clean. What makes this fish very clean? Some of the preservatives being used are actually harmful. I would like to urge the council authorities and the health officers to take samples of this food. At one time, we sampled fish in the Western Province and it was found to have traces of a toxic element. We want our health inspectors in the councils to make sure that they guarantee the food.

Madam Chairperson, if you went into the markets, especially in places like Sesheke and other border towns you would find sugar from other countries which is not fortified with Vitamin A. The local authorities are just looking at this sugar. The health officers are in place yet we have this unfortified sugar. The law says, take this sugar and destroy it. Currently, the Government spends a lot of money to make sure that sugar and salt are fortified. We want the local authorities to use the prevailing conditions to make sure that food eaten by our people is of wholesome quality as demanded.

Madam Chairperson, the Food and Drugs Regulations 27, says that no food premises will ever be licensed without the authority of a health officer or of an authorised officer. The councils should make use of their health officers. They should make sure that they assist them instead of waiving their reports because as others would say “I am the Town Clerk.” No! I am urging councils to make use of this.

Madam Chairperson, I would like to look at water supply. It is our duty as councils to make sure that the water we give to our people is clean, wholesome and adequate. I am referring, in this case, to the water situation in Mongu, Kalabo, Sesheke and Senanga where we are using surface water with pressure filters which are not effective. We would like the councils to take heed of this and make sure that they source for money. I know the hon. Minister is very generous. Go to these utility companies who for months have no money and put up schemes. Good filtration schemes which will make sure that these people have good water supply, for example, people in Mongu, Kaoma and Lukulu. I am talking about the Western Province. If such facilities exist in other places, let them also be given to the Western Province.

Madam Chairperson, I once raised this issue of broken sewer ponds. If you went to Mongu, currently, you will find a sewerage pond which is completely broken down. The people in Limulunga and Mulambwa are just living in the flowing sewerage yet the councils are just watching. I would like them to use this type of power which has been given to them to source for money, and as I have seen in the Budget, to make sure that they correct such issues.

Let me also talk about the Planning Section. I heard the hon. Minister say that all plans for buildings must go through the council. However, I want to add that if you went into the Public Health Act, building regulations say that no building will ever be erected without the authority of a medical officer under the Ministry of Health. That is why you find a building being erected near a sewerage pond. For example, in Senanga, we had a problem where the council had put a market near the sewerage pond. That is not allowed. The Ministry of Health must also play a role in the construction of every building because the Public Health Act requires that no building should be put in place without a medical officer looking at the plan. Can we utilise the available officers in our places.

Madam Chairperson, another issue is that of the Liquor Licensing Board which is not meeting regularly. That is why you find bars mushrooming everywhere without control. I am requesting that these boards meet regularly.

Madam Chairperson, finally, I want to implore or request all public health officers in local authorities and the Ministry of Health to stand up and be counted and utilise the facilities now given by the Ministry of Local Government and Housing which are allowing them to function as they should.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Masebo: Thank you very much, Madam Chairperson, for giving me this opportunity to wind up debate on my Ministry of Local Government and Housing. From the onset, I would like to thank all hon. Members that have contributed to the debate and others who would have wanted to contribute. I thank you for your support and understanding.

I am most grateful that a good number of hon. Members of Parliament are now beginning to attend council meetings and helping councils come up with quality decisions. I also would like to assure the hon. Members that we will continue in this year’s Budget to do the best that we can within the budgetary allocation without fear or favour.

Madam Chairperson, I will just quickly go to some specific issues which have been raised by hon. Members of Parliament. I will start with the issue of the Decentralisation Policy. A number of hon. Members who have spoken on the Floor of the House today have complained about its slow pace. I would like to assure them that this Government is committed to the implementation of the Decentralisation Policy and that we are grateful for some of the comments that they come up with.

We have as a Ministry put a proviso in our proposal in the implementation plan to move decentralisation either to the Office of the President or to the Office of the Vice-President to get the needed political clout to move the process further. However, as I indicated last time, the implementation plan is still at cabinet level and you will be informed of the outcome of that plan.

Madam Chairperson, let me address the issues to do with the chief’s affairs. I thank you for raising the issue of bicycles and I would like to mention that this year the Ministry intends to get the councils to buy the bicycles for councillors countrywide just to help them with their work. As for headmen, we have not thought about this and looking at the allocation, this may not be possible. However, we will consider that in the future.

Madam Chairperson, another issue that was raised was regarding the relationship between councils and the Government. I am happy that the hon. Member of Kabwata (Hon. Lubinda) was able to confirm that, in some cases, relations have been cordial and sometimes, of course, there are difficulties.

However, I want to state that whatever we do under the Ministry of Local Government and Housing, we do it in accordance with the law. That is why it was necessary for Hon. Guy Scott to attend the National Constitution Conference (NCC) so that he could bring out those ideas for the law to be changed. As it stands now, the law is that the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing has to approve budgets of the council. At the end of the day, the policy of Central Government has to prevail. If he thinks that is not good enough, he must come to the NCC and make proposals for changes.

Hon. Government Members: hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Without that, he must just keep quiet because that is the law. We are implementing the law and not breaking it.

Madam Chairperson, another issue was that raised by the hon. Member of Parliament for Matero (Hon. Sinyangwe) which had to do with the enforcement of the law. I want to commend her because it is not easy to get a Member of Parliament, worse still, from the Opposition, to say that we want to work with the Government in implementing the law. I would, therefore, like to appeal to all the other hon. Members of Parliament, both on your Right and Left, to emulate that type of leadership. If we have such leaders, this country will be better.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mrs Masebo: Related to that point, is a point which was raised by the hon. Member for Liuwa (Hon. Imasiku). It is not always that you can get political will. We have good political will from the Head of State, Cabinet, hon. Ministers, some councillors including the public on some of these issues regarding the enforcement of the law. We must all rise to the occasion to ensure that what is right is implemented. We must not, for once, compromise the law to get cheap political mileage even when we know that it has a disadvantage.

Madam Chairperson, this brings me to the issue of callboys at our bus stations and the cadres that are still collecting levies. The law is very clear. We are moving forward to implementing the Market Act. As you may appreciate, we have to sensitise the councils to understand and appreciate the law. We have to sensitise the marketeers. Therefore, the process is already underway and we are hoping that before the end of the first quarter of 2008, we will see new market boards and bus station boards in place. I want to assure you that once these boards are put in place, you will not find callboys harassing or beating women like we heard at Kulima Tower. That was most unfortunate and I would like to assure you that, that issue will not happen once the boards are put in place.

There are also issues that arose with regard to building structures. I want to commend the hon. Member of Parliament for Liuwa who raised a number of pertinent issues which, normally, we do not talk about. A number of us always talk about Constituency Development Fund (CDF), chiefs’ affairs and building palaces. However, he brought out issues of public health in as far as building is concerned in this country, which is very important.

Therefore, I would like other hon. Members of Parliament to take a bit of time to reflect on issues of health in their respective local authorities. Indeed, it is true that every plan that goes through the council has to have a health permit and that is taken into account. I think the only problem was that sometimes the Government departments do not handover these plans.

However, I would like to thank you very much for those issues that you have raised which are very important in local Government which many people overlook. I hope that the other hon. Members of Parliament including the hon. Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry who is responsible for business can take heed of what was being said here about ensuring that all traders who trade in either alcohol or goods and services take health standards into account. The buying of food on the streets must be discouraged because we have heard that these issues can be disastrous on our health.

Madam Chairperson, lastly, there is still an issue of illegal allocation of plots and we are told that this is still going on, in certain areas. Let us work together to stop this scourge. I am, personally, happy that this scourge is on the decrease because people are becoming aware and very few of them now are still engaging in this illegal act. However, we are aware that in some parts of Lusaka, we still have this problem. Once a Member of Parliament brings out this issue, I want to assure them that we will do everything within our means to ensure that we enforce the law.

Madam Chairperson, it is just that in the last month because of the problems of floods, as a ministry, and, indeed, as a Government, we have tended to concentrate on looking after the people who have been affected by these floods. You will find that most local authorities in various districts have, kind-of, digressed to concentrate on emergencies working with the Office of the Vice-President under the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU).

However, the ‘Make Zambia Clean Campaign’ continues. We are moving in at the end of March or April when the rains are over. We shall continue enforcing the Public Nuisance Act and ensure that we improve on training our police and also increasing the number police under councils. I am quite happy with the Kitwe City Council Police because they work like State police. This is what we are going to do to all the councils including Samfya District Council. We shall ensure that they employ extra council police officers to enforce the law.

Madam Chairperson, enforcement of the law is important if we are going to have a clean and good country. It is important that we all support each other. Do not ‘Masebolise’ some of the decisions or, indeed, the policies of Government or when we implement Government policies. It is not Masebo, it is Government. It is only that I am the Minister for now. Tomorrow, there will be another Minister, but these policies will continue because these are Government policies. Therefore, do not go out there and say this woman is very hard. I am not hard. I am just doing my job. However, I thank you for your support.

Hon. Hachipuka raised the issue of 10 per cent of the total value of CDF going to administration. This issue has been raised by a number of hon. Members. Others think that it is too much and must be reduced, while others think that it must be increased. This matter will be considered. I will take it to Cabinet and we will come back to inform you what Cabinet will agree on the matter.

Finally, there is a point which I should not forget and this is about council having no powers and also the issue of feeder roads. These are important issues. We must understand each other very clearly so that we do not mislead ourselves. The Local Government Act does say councils will deal with roads within their boundaries, but all roads in Zambia are under the Ministry of Works and Supply, as a parent ministry.

In any cases, all functions that have gone to councils come from the Central Government and are being shared with the local Government. In this case the issue of roads is under the Ministry of Works and Supply. However, the Ministry of Works and Supply says the issue of roads within your districts should be dealt with by district councils. They should plan for them. They should plan according to their priorities because they know that looking at their budget they cannot do all the roads even in these districts. Therefore, you are going to choose which roads to give priority. In your budget, you are also going to put a bit of money for roads. You can also apply for money from the Road Fund. There is a budget under the Ministry of Works and Supply which is talking about feeder roads and township roads. That is money that is going to go to the local authorities.

Now, where local authorities like Lusaka and Kitwe have no problems, they can also engage contractors to work for them or they do it themselves. They can put out advertisements to invite contractors to secure those jobs. That will not be done by the Central Government but by local authorities. It is only in a situation where a council may not have the capacity to do that work when Central Government will come in to help them. So, you have the powers. Do not mislead yourselves that you do not have the power. The only problem is that you do not have equipment. If we had equipment in Samfya, for example, would you be talking to Ministry of Local Government and Housing, Central Government, Works and Supply or Road Development Agency (RDA), about roads? Not at all. You would just put fuel in your graders and grade your roads unless where you need to do highways and so on and so forth. So indeed you have the power and I would like to encourage you by saying that, use those powers so that you can make your council work.

Madam Chairperson, with those few remarks, I would like to say thank you very much to my colleagues and hope that we can do better this year than we did in 2007.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 20/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 20/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 20/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 29/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 29/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 29/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 29/05 ─ (Ministry of Local Government and Housing ─ Local Government Administration Department ─ K168,714,063,363)

Ms Imbwae (Lukulu West): Madam Chairperson, can the hon. Minister confirm whether Programme 2, Activity 02 – Parliamentary Matters – no allocation, Activity 03 –SADC Local Government Forum – no allocation, Activity 04 - Commonwealth Local Government Forum – no allocation and Activity 05 –Annual Conference of Local Government Association of Zambia – no allocation are substituted at Programme 4, Activity 01 – SADC Local Government Forum – K108,000,000, Activity 02 – Commonwealth Local Government Forum – K108,000,000, Activity 03 – Annual Conference of Local Government Association of Zambia – K5,000,000, Activity 04 – Subscriptions to Commonwealth – K54,800,000 and Activity 05 – Subscriptions to SADC – K54,800,00.

Mrs Masebo: Madam Chairperson, I would like to confirm that Programme 2, Activity 02 – Parliamentary Matters – no allocation, Activity 03 –SADC Local Government Forum – no allocation, Activity 04 - Commonwealth Local Government Forum – no allocation, and Activity 05 –Annual Conference of Local Government Association of Zambia – no allocation are substituted at Programme 4, Activity 01 – SADC Local Government Forum – K108,000,000, Activity 02 – Commonwealth Local Government Forum – K108,000,000, Activity 03 – Annual Conference of Local Government Association of Zambia – K5,000,000, Activity 04 – Subscriptions to Commonwealth – K54,800,000 and Activity 05 – Subscriptions to SADC – K 54,800,00.

I thank you, Madam.

Vote 29/05 ordered to stand part of the estimates.

Vote 29/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 29/07 ─ (Ministry of Local Government and Housing ─ Government Valuation Department ─ K2, 891,460,018)

Mr Mukanga: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 8, Activity 01 – Valuation Appraisal Programmes – K9,982,480. I am wondering what has caused the reduction from K179 million, which was allocated last year, to K9million.

Mrs Masebo: Madam Chairperson, the reduction on Programme 8, Activity 01 – Valuation Appraisal Programmes – K9,982,480 simply means the work was done in 2007 and we are just winding up that programme.

I thank you, Madam.

Ms N. J. Phiri (Luanshya): Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 2, Activity 01 – General Administration and Provision of Cleaning Materials – K51,060,666 and Activity 02 – Maintenance of the Offices and Surroundings – K195,240,000. With the good intentions of the Keep Zambia Clean Programme, I am wondering why we now have a reduction in the amounts allocated to the two activities. I am wondering whether Luanshya will be kept clean if we keep on deducting.

Mr Masebo: Madam Chairperson, the Keep Zambia Clean Programme funding is on page 323, under Programme 12 and you will find that there is an increase. You will recall that in my policy statement, I alluded to the fact certain programmes have been moved. It is not because they have been dissolved but because they have moved to a different department.

However, the reduction on Programme 2, Activity 01 – General Administration and Provision of Cleaning Materials – K51,060,666 and Activity 02 – Maintenance of the Offices and Surroundings – K195,240,000 simply means that a lot of work was done in the previous year and we cannot continue buying the same items. We have to be seen to be reducing and not increasing, although you will see that in certain activities, there is an increment.

Therefore, the reduction simply means that certain things were done in 2007 and they shall not be repeated because may be we now have that particular equipment to carry on with the usual business in terms of cleaning up.

I thank you, Madam.

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 9, Activity 05 – Compilation of Data and Preparation of Valuation Rolls – Nil. I am wondering whether it is elsewhere and if it is not, how are we going to do our rolls this year?

Mrs Masebo: I need to refer to my notes on this item.

The Chairperson: Order! The Deputy Ministers should help so that we move fast.

Laughter

Mrs Masebo: Madam Chairperson, I am sorry for the delay, but I have the answer.

If you look at Programme 8, there are some resources that have been put there for Preparation of the List of Local Authorities Requiring Evaluation Rolls by the Regions. There will be field inspections, receipting of data and so on and so forth.  When it comes to the actual preparation and communication prior to field inspections, the actual Programme 9, the local authorities are supposed to pay the valuers. Once the valuers are appointed, for example, Kazungula District Council appoints valuers to go and update the valuation roll they will engage valuers whom the council as per law is supposed to pay. Therefore, we have not made any provision. In the past, we did make provision to help councils that had no resources to pay because as you are aware, these fees can be quite high.

For example, with the K50 billion which is for the current expenditure, part of the money may go for such activities and that is why under the relevant department, the resources are not there.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Vote 29/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 29/08 – (Ministry of Local Government and Housing - House of Chiefs Department – K17,696,110,531).

Mr Mukanga: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 7, Activity 02 – House of Chiefs Sessions – K1,940,362,500 and Activity 05 – Procurement of Motor Vehicles – K1,300,000,000. I would like to know whether this money is meant to buy vehicles for chiefs and whether these vehicles will be given to chiefs on loan or it is just a grant. If it is a loan, where are they going to get the money to pay back?

The Chairperson: Order! The Chair will not admit that because it is taking us back. I heard it clearly in the Minister’s statement, we should be listening when a general policy statement is being given.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, at a risk of being harassed by a man who has been declared winner, …

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Lubinda: … let me ask, Madam Chairperson. On Sub-head 3, Programme 7, Activity 04 – Printing of Village Registers – K100,000,000, last year this Parliament approved an amount of K100,000,000 which was also authorised. This year, the ministry is also requesting another K100,000,000. Can the hon. Minister indicate when the registers were printed last year and whether there is need for more registers to be printed this year.

Secondly, I might have missed it in the policy statement of the hon. Minister, if she did cover it, and I seek her indulgence. Could she explain why there is cancellation of an allocation to Programme 8, Activity 03 – Traditional Ceremonies. Last year an amount of K100,000,000 was allocated but there is nothing this year. 

Mrs Masebo: Madam Chairperson, on Programme 7, Activity 04 – Printing of Village Registers – K100,000,000, these are required and we need to print them every year. As you are aware the work of the Central Statistical Office and the Ministry of Home Affairs in issuance of registration requires that, headmen come up with registers of members of their villages so that we do not have foreigners that will infiltrate these villages and start getting green registration cards. In addition, in terms of planning for development, this information is also required.

On Programme 8, Activity 03 – Traditional Ceremonies – no allocation, as you are aware, Madam Chairperson, traditional ceremonies fall under the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services. We have deliberately removed it as a line because it is a line under Ministry of Community Development and Social Services which is responsible for traditional ceremonies. We do have installation ceremonies and we have a vote under Chief’s Affairs for this and when need arises the ministry does help with gifts, travel and so on.

However, as you heard His Excellency gave a policy directive that every year we will concentrate on one major ceremony in province. This does not mean that there will be no other ceremonies, but that in terms of finances, we have to have a limit otherwise we will be digressing from other needy developmental issues. Therefore, we have removed this K100,000,000, but under Chief’s Affairs ….

The Chairperson: Order! The point is made hon. Minister.

Mr Mukanga: Madam Chairperson, on Programme 8, Activity 02 – Medical and Welfare – K600,000,000, I have seen a reduction from K902,000,000 last year to K600,000,000 this years. Has the welfare and medical status of the Kapasos improved in order for us to make this reduction?

Mr Masebo: Madam Chairperson, on Programme 8, Activity 02 – Medical and Welfare – K600,000,000, I would like to say that the welfare and medical status have not improved except that this year we have reduced the amount because chiefs will not be staying in hotels. We are going to rent some houses where the chiefs will be staying when they visit Lusaka and so we expect the budget to go down.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Ms N.J.M. Phiri: Madam Chairperson, on Programme 07, Activity – 06 – Meetings of Provincial Councils of Chiefs – K162,000,000, I am just wondering because last year we had K320,000,000 and this year there is a reduction. Does it mean the ministry has reduced the number of meetings this year?

Mrs Masebo: Madam Chairperson, on Programme 07, Activity – 06 – Meetings of Provincial Councils of Chiefs – K162,000,000, the provincial council of chiefs meets to elect members of the House of Chiefs. The council now also decides how many years these members will serve in the House of Chiefs thus resulting in the reduction in the number of meetings at that level.
 
I thank you, Madam.

Vote 29/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 29/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 17  (Ministry of Foreign Affairs   Headquarters - K194,303,671,231)

The Minister of Foreign Affairs (Mr Pande): Madam Chairperson, may I, first and foremost, express my appreciation to you for the opportunity that you have accorded me to present the estimates of expenditure for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. From the onset, I wish to mention that due to the small size of the resource envelope, we have tried as much as possible to operate within the available resources.

My ministry carries the responsibility of articulating and implementing Zambia’s foreign policy. It facilitates the country’s interaction with the international community to fulfill its principle mandate of promoting, protecting and maximising the realisation of Zambia’s interests.

Madam Chairperson, in 2007, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs successfully implemented most of the planned activities for the year. The most notable activity was the hosting of the Southern African Development Community (SADC) Summit and Council of Ministers’ meetings in Lusaka. As this august House is aware, Zambia is Chair of SADC for the period August, 2007 to August, 2008.

Madam Chairperson, the ministry continued to participate in global economic and political activities in line with the focus of the Fifth National Development Plan in order to ensure the enhancement of socio-economic development for the Zambian people. Last year, the ministry facilitated the visits of high level dignitaries in an effort to showcase Zambia’s investment opportunities, notably: the Chinese President, His Excellency, Mr Hu Jintao, the President of Djibouti; His Excellency, Mr Ishmael Omagwela; the former President of the United States of America, Bill Clinton; and the First Lady of the United States of America, Mrs Laura Bush.

Madam Chairperson, the Ministry also facilitated His Excellency, Dr Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC, visits to various countries with strategic interests to Zambia. These include, Ethiopia and Ghana, which hosted the African Union summits in January and July respectively; Tanzania, to attend the extraordinary SADC Summit on the SADC Organ on Politics, Defence and Security which addressed the political situation in our sub-region, particularly relating to Lesotho, Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) and Zimbabwe; Malaysia, to attend the Lankawi International Dialogue. Following this meeting, Zambia will host the next …

The Chairperson: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

___________ 

HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

___________

MOTION

ADJOURNMENT

The Vice-President (Mr R. Banda): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

___________

The House adjourned at 1917 hours until 1430 hours on Thursday, 21st February, 2008.