Debates- Tuesday, 4th March, 2008

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Tuesday, 4th March, 2008

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]






The Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development (Mr Namulambe): Mr Speaker, thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to present a ministerial statement to the House and to inform the nation on the just ended Africa Cup of Nations Tournament which was held in Ghana from 20th January to 10th February, 2008.

Sir, prior to the commencement of the 2008 Africa Cup of Nations, I held several meetings with the Football Association of Zambia (FAZ) executive in order to resolve the many problems that the Association was experiencing. In these meetings, we were able to reach consensus on many issues, including that of the coach. During these meetings, I stressed that as a country, we wanted to see Zambia get the Africa Cup and that Parliament was going to give all the support that was required.

Consequently, the Government approved the K5.8 billion budget that was submitted by FAZ to enable them adequately prepare for and successfully participate in the tournament. This budget was to cater for both local camping and training camps in Europe and North Africa which the team undertook.

Mr Speaker, out of the K5.8 billion that was approved by the Government, K2.4 billion was released as initial funding, of which K1.4 billion was spent on air tickets for all the players and officials and K1 billion was to cater for allowances and other expenses whilst in Ghana. In addition, the Confederation of African Football (CAF) gave part of the refund for the cost of air tickets to Zambia, totalling US$16,230. Thus there was no shortage of money in the Zambian Camp. Had the team progressed in the tournament the whole amount in the budget was going to be released as we had agreed.

However, despite the tremendous support that was rendered to the team, Zambia’s performance at the CAN 2008 tournament was very disheartening. The team was based in Kumasi where they played all the three matches at the Baba Yara Sports Complex. The opening game was on 22nd January, 2008 against Sudan, at team that Zambia beat 3:0. The second game was against Cameroon that humiliated us by five goals to one. The third and last game was against Egypt which ended in a one all draw.

Mr Speaker, in trying to understand what might have caused the defeat, it became clear that some veteran players were not part of the team. I discovered that FAZ was not being entirely sincere with both the Government and the people of Zambia whose money they were spending in the tournament. For example, …

Mr Kambwili: Yes!

Mr Namulambe: … FAZ sent their final player list to CAF on 10th January, 2008. This list did not include players such as Elijah Tana, Collins Mbesuma and Nkausu.

Mr Kambwili: Shame!

Mr Namulambe: Unfortunately, FAZ still went ahead to ask the players to travel to Ghana at Government’s expense.

Furthermore, Mr Speaker, FAZ had the approved budget before the team left for Spain for the preparatory matches. It was shocking for me to learn that within FAZ, they chose to mislead the players that their winning bonuses were pegged at US $2,500, when it was clear that the agreed and approved figure was US $2,000. This resulted in confusion when the players were paid US $2000 as winning bonuses after the game against Sudan. As a result, the Government had to pay an additional US $500 to each player and officials so as not to dampen the morale of the team. Sir, I regard such expenditure motivated by a few individuals in FAZ for their own selfish ends as wasteful. I feel this must be curbed.

Mr Speaker, it is against this background that I have stated that the administrative grant to FAZ be suspended until we recover the money that they deliberately spent outside the approved budget. On the other hand, the grant to the Senior National Football Team will continue to be disbursed as we believe that we have so much talent that if well managed, will bring us honour one day.

Sir, the Government attaches significant importance to the development of sport in the country. Football is the number one sport in Zambia and we shall continue to render support to its development.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members may now ask questions on points of clarification on the ministerial statement that has been made by the Hon. Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development.

Mr Mooya (Moomba): Mr Speaker, I note here that before Zambia played Cameroon, it was reported in the newspapers that players were not happy with the allowances and the hon. Minister gave some indication. May I know whether that 5:1 was attributed to difference in the allowances?

Mr Namulambe: Mr Speaker, we had paid the difference. Somehow we may say that it could have contributed because there was confusion before we agreed to pay the extra US $500 to the team.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs J. C. M Phiri (Munali): Mr Speaker, I know that everybody is aware that Zambia is going to host the All Africa Games in 2010 or 2011. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister, following the statement he made yesterday, to the effect that some of the schools we have in Zambia have swimming pools that have since become disused. A good example is Munali High School. Can he confirm that his Government would not mind if these swimming pools which have become death traps are buried.

Mr Speaker: Order! I would like to remind the hon. Members to ensure that questions that should follow relate to matters that have been referred to by the hon. Minister in his statement. Therefore, hon. Members, ask questions on points of clarification and quote the statement. I do not think the hon. Minister referred to any swimming pools.


Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister stated clearly that FAZ was not sincere to the people of Zambia and the Government when asking for funding to make Elijah Tana and Collins Mbesuma to join the rest of the team. I would, therefore, like to find out what action the Government has taken against FAZ for being dishonest with the people of Zambia.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Namulambe: Mr Speaker, we have suspended the grant to FAZ so that we recover the money that was spent.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Milupi: Mr Speaker, quite clearly, FAZ does other things other than running the National Team. Would the hon. Minister, therefore, accept that where there were problems such as the ones he has elaborated, the course of action to be taken should not include withdrawing money, but taking up specific action against the officials rather than punishing a larger constituency of those who benefit from FAZ.

Mr Namulambe: Mr Speaker, we, as a Government, cannot suspend any official from FAZ. We can only suspend the grant. It is up to the FAZ executive to deal with the officials who made that decision so that, may be, they can recover the money from them.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister, in his statement, said that FAZ did not tell the truth. Therefore, where were the Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development officials when FAZ was being deceptive without them taking action before the situation worsened to the extent that we lost the games?

Mr Namulambe: Mr Speaker, in the first place, with to regard to the issue of allowances, the fake document was leaked to the players in Spain and we did not have any official from the Ministry in that country. When the confusion started in Ghana, that is when the officials at the Ministry moved in quickly so as to save the situation. Now, in relation to the deception of sending Tana and Nkausu to Ghana when they knew that the final list was not going to include the two players, FAZ had made an assurance to the Government that the two were going to be part of the team. The Government learnt that the two were not going to be part of the team, hence the punishment taken against FAZ.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chanda (Kankoyo): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister mentioned something about the recruitment of an expatriate coach. Could he confirm where he will proceed to recruit this coach?

Mr Namulambe: Mr Speaker, this will be done after the elections to be held on 29th March to elect the new FAZ executive. We have decided to suspend the process of recruiting the coach because at the moment, people are concentrating on campaigning. As such, they may not do a good of employing a new coach. Therefore, we have decided to let the new executive come and take it up.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sichamba (Isoka West): Mr Speaker, while I appreciate the hon. Minister’s decision to suspend FAZ and that there are campaigns going on to usher a new executive for FAZ, why should the new executive suffer the consequences of problems created by the previous executive?

Mr Namulambe: Mr Speaker, in the first place, I did not state that we have suspended FAZ, but we have suspended the grant to FAZ. As such, it is up to FAZ, be it the current members or those to come into office, to exculpate themselves and justify why they feel we should lift the suspension.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Magande: Hear, hear!

Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minster has talked about the elections, therefore, I would like to find out whether the Government is supporting any candidate in for the position of FAZ President.


Mr Namulambe: Mr Speaker, the people who are going to stand for FAZ presidency are all Zambians. The Government supports every Zambian. As such, there is no specific individual who is being supported by the Government.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapeya (Mpika): Mr Speaker, the selection of players for the national team is mainly done from clubs along the line of rail. When will the Government take a deliberate step to promote soccer in rural Zambia?

Mr Speaker: Hon. Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development, that is a border line follow-up question.

Mr Namulambe: Mr Speaker, I will give a bonus answer because it is not related to the statement. However, I would like to state that the intentions of the Government are to promote youth sport in all the seventy-two districts in Zambia. To identify talent for the 2011 All Africa Games, we are looking at all the districts. It is the duty of all of us to ensure that we strengthen the leagues out there because the selection of players is not for the Government, but people being active in the leagues in their respective areas. However, we have emphasised to the associations to go rural and tap talent.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Matongo (Pemba): Mr Speaker, whereas I recognise that ministers could ostensibly take decisions such as suspending a constitutionally approved amount of money by this House, I wonder which authority the hon. Minister actually used to take an absolute decision in this matter.
Mr Namulambe: Mr Speaker, yes, we agree that Parliament approves expenditure by the Government. As the Executive, and with the civil servants, we administer this expenditure. There is no way, despite the approval by the Government, we can let money go to waste. We are there to control the use of public funds, hence the need to provide direction in this regard.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what incentives have been put in place to tap talent in rural areas.


Mr Speaker: Order! The hon. Member was not listening because that question has already been asked.


Mr Muntanga (Kalomo): Mr Speaker, according to the hon. Minister, the Executive and civil servants have the right to withhold expenditure, is it therefore, the reason the Government can take K900 billion back to the Treasury because the Executive has power to withhold funds that have been appropriately approved by Parliament?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: That is a question that can only be answered adequately by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, but since he is not the one making a ministerial statement now, that question will not be answered.

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister was quite elaborate in detailing us with some of the reasons we performed dismally in the African Cup of Nations tournament in Ghana. I would like him to go a step further by telling this House whether or not the team was mentally, physically and …

Mr Munaile: Psychologically.

Mr Nkombo: … psychologically prepared for this tournament to the effect that if they were paid, for instance, US$5,000 per win, they could have brought the cup home.

Mr Namulambe: Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Mazabuka for that question. However, I have difficulty answering it because I am not a psychologist, neither am I a doctor, but what I may state is the fact that we approved the budget as was presented. As to what happened within the team, I may not be able to tell.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mushili (Ndola Central): Mr Speaker, arising from the most humiliating loss of the Zambia National Football Team had, what plans have the Football Association of Zambia and the Government made as regards to the provision of adequate and aggressive training for the young players like what is being done in Brazil?

Mr Namulambe: Mr Speaker, we learnt lessons from that tournament and we shall sit down and strategise.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr I. Banda (Lumezi): Mr Speaker, if the players were frustrated by the low allowances, what was their highest bidding figure for them to play a good game?


Mr Namulambe: Mr Speaker, I had stated clearly in my statement that the approved allowance was US$2,000. However, there was a fake document that was given to the players that indicated an allowance of US$2,500. Therefore, there was no other figure that was going to motivate the players because the approved figure was US$2,000. The fake document caused some confusion which we attended to.

I thank you, Sir.

_____________ {mospagebreak}



183. Mr D. Mwila (Chipili) asked the Minister of Mines and Minerals Development how much was owed to local and foreign suppliers and contractors by Konkola Copper Mines Plc as at 31st December, 2007.

The Deputy Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr M. B. Mwale): Mr Speaker, a total of US$45,464,883 (K181,859,532,640) was owed to local and foreign suppliers and contractors by Konkola Copper Mines Plc (KCM) as at 31st December, 2007, broken down as follows:

Suppliers/Contractors                        Amount

Local                                     US$32,490,373.56 (K129,961,494,240)

Foreign                                  US$12,974,509.60 (K51,898,038,400)

Total                                      US$45,464,883.16 (K181,859,532,640)

The House may wish to know that 60 per cent of the suppliers are local and have more business than foreigners. The House may further wish to know that Konkola Copper Mines Plc has a thirty day credit period with all their suppliers and contractors. Local and foreign suppliers are normally paid within a thirty-day period.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr D. Mwila: Speaker, despite KCM giving contracts to foreign companies, it has continued bringing into employees into the country. I would like the hon. Minister to confirm whether it is true that KCM is bringing 300 Indians for the construction of a smelter.

Mr M. B. Mwale: Speaker, KCM is a privately-owned company which is engaged in mining operations. With regard to the hon. Member’s question, it appears that he has more information than the Ministry. I would advise him to approach the Ministries of Home Affairs and Labour and Social Security which are the right portfolios to deal with the issuance of work permits.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simuusa (Nchanga): Mr Speaker, can the hon. Deputy Minister confirm to this House if all the complaints, cries and noise that the local suppliers have been making of not being given business in preference to foreign companies were not justified.

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Member for Nchanga for his follow-up question. I do not even have to confirm this because in my response, I clearly stated that the local suppliers were given business of K129,961,494,240 compared to that of the foreigners which was K51,898,038,400.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mushili (Ndola): Mr Speaker, could the hon. Minister clarify the composition of local suppliers because according to my understanding, foreigners who form their own companies are also classified as local contractors.

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for his follow-up question. Mr Speaker, there are Zambian registered companies and foreign registered companies. In this case, Konkola Copper Mines Plc has more than 3,000 local suppliers, some of who are agents of international companies. In relation to the foreign companies, there are only fifty suppliers.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Matongo (Pemba): Mr Speaker, I would like the hon. Minister to be very clear. It is my belief that when a work permit is being sought, it is the substantive ministry or department or a function of ministry that requests the Ministry of Home Affairs. Is the hon. Minister saying that they have no say as a ministry when these contractors come? He wants to pass the buck on the hon. Ministers of Home Affairs and that of Labour and Social Security so that if they did not approve, perhaps he would have raised an issue. Could he clarify that.

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, I would like to thank my elder brother who I respect so much for that follow-up question. However, I would like to emphasise the fact that the Ministry does not sit on the committee that issues work permits. However, the only time we come in is when a particular mining company requires specialised services. We would intervene at that stage. Whenever the mining companies are seeking authority to bring in a number of expatriates for their services, we have no say because they contact the ministries of Labour and Social Security as well as Foreign Affairs directly.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Speaker, when companies are being privatised or are finding strategic partners, we have learnt from the past that it has been rather difficult to clear liabilities of such companies. What plans has the Government put in place to make sure that the operating companies pay their suppliers or liabilities on time to avoid liquidating or running away, leaving debt that is usually taken up by the Government?

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, I would have been a lot happier if the hon. Member was specific because when it concerns companies in which the Government has a stake, of course, we will have a say. When it is a private-owned company, as a Government, we may not be able to monitor whatever is going on. However, by all means, we encourage the companies to meet their liabilities.

I thank you, Sir.


Ms Kapata (Mandevu) asked the Minister of Education when construction of laboratories at the following schools in Mandevu Parliamentary Constituency would be completed:

(a) Highland High School; and

(b) Olympia High School.

The Deputy Minister of Education (Mr Sinyinda): Mr Speaker, the Ministry has embarked on the rehabilitation of two laboratories at Highland High School. Works on one laboratory have been completed and the laboratory is in use. Works on the other laboratory is in progress and it is hoped that the whole rehabilitation will be completed by the end of April, 2008.
Works for the rehabilitation of laboratories at Olympia High School have started and should be completed by the end of June, 2008.

I thank you, Sir.


185. Mr D. Mwila (Chipili) asked the Minister of Justice:

(a) how much money the Government had spent on private prosecutors handling cases of the Second Republican President’s wife as at December, 2007; and

(b) what mode was used to pay the legal fees.

The Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda, SC.): Mr Speaker, the wife of the Second Republican President started appearing in court in Ndola on 3rd November, 2006. A private prosecutor was handling the case from inception until a Nolle Prosequi was entered on 24th August, 2007. After the entry of the Nolle Prosequi, statements were issued by the Second Republican President and opinion columns written in The Post Newspaper against the private prosecutor. The private prosecutor considered these press statements and opinion columns to be offensive and libelous and commenced legal proceedings on 9th November, 2007 in the High Court at Lusaka under Cause Number 2007/HP/1128. I have ascertained that the issue of legal fees and the conduct of the private prosecutor and comments made thereon are some of the issues that would be determined by the High Court. Accordingly, the matters are subjudice and I cannot comment on the issue of legal fees.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: The matter is subjudice. Are you going to go into that hon. Member for Chasefu?

Mr C. K. Banda, SC. (Chasefu): Could the hon. Minister of Justice and my learned friend tell the House whether legal fees were agreeing before the prosecutor started prosecuting the case in issue?

Mr Kunda, SC.: Mr Speaker, I will not answer that question because it is subjudice.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Speaker, are there any plans by the Government to employ our own prosecutors so that we reduce the expenditure?

Mr Kunda, SC.: Mr Speaker, we have several prosecutors who are prosecuting cases.

I thank you, Sir.




VOTE 13/01 - (The Ministry of Energy and Water Development – Headquarters – K13,908,220,702)

(Consideration resumed)

Mr Chimbaka: Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I stand to support the vote on the Ministry of Energy and Water Development. However, I have some few issues I would like to bring to the attention of the Ministry, the hon. Minister and the House as a whole.

Madam Chairperson, energy is a very important factor in the development of our country. Due to the concerns relating to the outages and load shedding in my constituency and Mansa in particular, I took an on-the-spot check tour to establish the causes and assist in finding solutions to load shedding  in Luapula, in particular.

Madam Chairperson, people in the Luapula Province have perpetually experienced black outs because they have been connected to the national grid which is centrally controlled from Lusaka and at  Pensulo Street in Serenje District in Hon. George Kunda’s Constituency.

Madam Chairperson, what happens to the people in Luapula Province and Kaputa, in particular, is that when there is …

Hon. Government Member: Why Kaputa?

Mr Chimbaka: … a fault on the line in Mpika then Kaputa and the whole of the Luapula Province is affected. When there is a fault between Kasama, Luwingu and Mporokoso, Kaputa and Luapula Province as a whole is affected. As a result, people have gone for five days and sometimes even a week without power. This prompted a demonstration that I helped to stop in that I went there to try and see what the problem was.

Madam Chairperson, when I went to Musonda Falls Power Station with the permission of the manager, I established that the dam which is the reservoir for power generation at Musonda Falls has been extremely silted and was so shallow that there was no way the management of the Zambia Electricity Supply Corporation (ZESCO) at Musonda Falls Power Station could preserve that water. When you look at it physically, it looks like a very big lake, and yet it is very shallow with a minimal depth.

Madam Chairperson, I must thank the Zambia News and Information Services (ZANIS) in Mansa because the Permanent Secretary allowed them to go with me. I have a documentary on this which I may lay on the Table tomorrow to prove what I am talking about.

We also went to look at the Weir Dam which is the second dam and a reservoir meant to catch water to supply to the power station. The Weir Dam has also been silted under the bridge. Grass has encroached and makes it very difficult for water to be firm. When I questioned the people, they suggested that the only solution to having an adequate supply of water to the power station would be to de-silt both the main and rear dams. If that could be done, there would be adequate water in the dry season, starting October to November to supply to the Musonda Falls Power Station which would continuously generate power.

Madam Chairperson, we also went to the Musonda Falls Power Station. It only has four power generating machines that were planted in 1960 and came from Yugoslavia and Kosovo, in particular. The machines are very old and one of them has not functioned for so many years. When I questioned a power station superintendent, he told me that he had tried all means to contact the national Headquarters for a solution. He also said that the Musonda Falls Power Station had the capacity to generate 5 Mega Watts of electricity.

If only ZESCO had the money to send to the Musonda Falls where they have a workshop, the people there told me that they could syncronise and modify the machines to begin generating electricity which would go a long way in serving the people of the Luapula Province.

Madam Chairperson, the power station where electricity is transformed immediately after generation has not been worked on. The insulators are just hanging and this is a very big danger to the workers and the power station itself, particularly during the rainy season.

Further, Madam Chairperson, the canal is very old and is leaking. When we came back and discussed the way forward, I came to Lusaka and had an audience with a high powered delegation from ZESCO that included Mr Musonda Chibulu. When we discussed further, Mr Chibulu admitted that if ZESCO were to support the Luapula Province in terms of industrial development, there was a need for a solution to be found.

When I went through the vote, I noticed that there is only K11 million that has been appropriated for monitoring electricity generation and transmission instead of K131 million which was appropriated last year. The reduction to K11 million, to me, means that the monitoring of generation that the Ministry of Energy and Water Development through ZESCO wants to do cannot be adequately done because the amount is quite small.

In addition, Madam Chairperson, we also discussed the alternative of rationing the power from Musonda to Kaputa, the Musonda Falls itself could generate power to feed the Luapula Province. At the moment, the Luapula Province has been adversely hit in terms of industrial development. There are people who have gone to Mansa, and would like to install machines such as hatcheries. They have threatened to withdraw from the Luapula Province because the blackouts will not allow them to plant their machines, as this would result in very big losses.

The only factory in the Luapula Province, Amanita Mansa Batteries, had intentions of turning the factory into a refining factory since they have a crusher and a furnace. After the factory has been worked on, the company is reluctant to go to the Luapula Province and create employment because the supply of power is not stable.

Further, at the Kawambwa Tea Scheme, there are problems of blackouts and productivity has been limited in that power supply is not assured. Going by this trend, I feel that if nothing is done now, the Luapula Province may be a dark province, particularly Milenge District which I always talk about. The province must grow because there is potential in the falls that can generate about twenty-five mega watts if water is taped and power stations are constructed there. Otherwise, the Luapula Province will always remain behind in terms of development.

Mr L. J. Mulenga: Tatulelanda!

Mr Chimbaka: Therefore, I am appealing to the hon. Minister to be serious about this issue. We appreciate that you have constraints. As an elderly man, a church elder and a man of God, I always avoid using bitter words and that is why I stammer. However, I would like to use words that should appeal to your heart that the people out there are geared for development. It is important for the Government to support the local entrepreneurs. Yes, I know that people are eyeing the Kalungwishi Falls for electricity generation, but as much as we want to wait for people to invest in power generation, the Government must move in to update and upgrade the existing infrastructure rather than wait until it goes to worst and all the machines clump down.

Please, Hon. Minister, make a follow up with the Zambia Electricity Supply Corporation because the rehabilitation works are being done at the Kafue Gorge and Kariba North Bank power stations. Equally, the Musonda Falls, which has been in existence for forty-eighty years, must be attended to. At my age and yours, hon. Minister, we cannot run as fast as the younger generation. If we risk running that way, we shall end up at the University Teaching Hospital (UTH). Therefore, if we need to care for ourselves, we must also take care of the machines. They must be given a new life in order to meet the demands of industrialisation in Luapula.

I, therefore, want to conclude by saying that I will give you, hon. Minister, the documentary. I did not want to take it to ZNBC, but I would like you to look at it and listen to the people’s suggestions. Definitely, I see a solution in what the people said about the Musonda Falls Power Station. If that works, I can assure you that the issue of blackouts and load shedding in the Luapula Province and Kaputa District can be a thing of the past. All they want is support from your Ministry by appropriating enough resources that can be used to modify machines and increase production and generation of electricity at the Musonda Falls.

I would also like to comment on another falls in Serenje which I toured and I discovered its status is equal to that of the Musonda Falls. I can assure you that if you worked on the Chishimba Falls in the Northern Province, you would spare the national grid for other districts. However, if the three power stations are given a facelift, the Luapula, Northern and Central provinces would develop.

I thank you. Madam Chairperson.

Mr Sikazwe (Chimbamilonga): Madam Chairperson, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to support the Vote on the Floor, especially that I come from a district and constituency that has no electricity.

Madam, in his policy statement, the hon. Minister talked about reviewing the energy policy and outlined some proposals on solar, wind, biomass, bio-fuel and geothermal energies. Unfortunately, he did not consider the geothermal programme which I expected to be mentioned, particularly after having reviewed the policy because it is already in place. I always debate this thing because it is going to worst.

Mr Sichilima: Which thing?

Mr Sikazwe: The Kapisha Geothermal Project …


Mr Sikazwe: … is a project on which a lot of money has been spent. It is twenty years since the feasibility studies were carried out by the Italian Government. By then, this project was under the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development. Some of the mining engineers who studied that project are now lecturers at the University of Zambia. After the feasibility study on seven or eight points in Zambia, Kapisha in Chimbamilonga Constituency was picked. This was because they saw that it could be beneficial to Zambians. The reason they went that far was because they thought of promoting tourism in that area. At the time, the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines (ZCCM) took advantage of the study and explored further because they were encouraging tourism at the Kasaba, Nkamba and Ndole Bay lodges.

The Italian Government provided a grant of US $20 million for this project to drill eleven boiling points. In 1999, the Zambia Electricity Supply Corporation took over the project. By then, the people of Kaputa were not connected to the diesel power which is being subsidised at the moment, and yet people are not benefiting much from it. That is what ZESCO is telling us today. Despite the presence of the machines, load shedding is still going on in Kaputa District. ZESCO management promised that they would do everything possible within the first two years of the project taking off since ZCCM was almost winding up the project. It is a pity that ZCCM was privatised.

Madam Chairperson, I sympathise with the people on your left, because whenever they stand to speak, they claim that they are the only people who make proposals to the Government, but as MMD Members on the Back Bench, we can also propose a lot of things. Is it not possible for us to make proposals to the Government like I am talking about the geothermal project, today? Is the Government just going to hear from the people on your left?


Mr Sikazwe: Ever since I came to this House, I have only heard the Opposition saying that they proposed this and that to the Government. I have never heard people on your right mention that even the Back Bench proposed this.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hammer!

Mr Sikazwe: Today, I am informing this Government that it has quality Members of Parliament who can make proposals to the Government and chart the way forward.


Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikazwe: Madam Chairperson, I have talked a lot about this project because it relates to environmental degradation. For the past 100 years, people in my district have been using firewood for cooking. They have never used charcoal. Do you expect the shrubs and trees to grow when you are not replanting? It cannot be the same. It is time the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources worked hand in hand with the Ministry of Energy and Water Development because it involves environmental degradation. We already have this plant in place. What will be the benefit of the people in Kaputa and Chimbamilonga districts?

The study, which is in the Minister’s office, is that once the plant has been completed, and with the consultancy carried out by the Kenyans, …

Ms Imbwae Crossed the Floor!

Hon. Members: Order, order!


Mr Sikazwe: I thank you Madam Chairperson, it is because of gender.


Mr Sikazwe: I was trying to stress a point relating to the Kapisha Geothermal Plant. With eighty-five to eighty-seven degrees outside temperature, 164 to 225 degrees underground temperatures and a depth of 150 metres, we are able to produce 500 mega watts. This project will account for one quarter of the entire energy produced at Itezhi-tezhi and Kafue Lower power. The total energy produced by Kafue Lower and Itezhi-tezhi is 2,000 to 2,500 mega watts. However, according to the study books at the Ministry of Energy and Water Development and ZESCO management, the Kapisha Geothermal Plant alone can produce 500 mega watts which will cater for the entire Northern Province and some power for export. This is real. This information is known by some researchers and it is also found in the Department of Engineering at the University of Zambia. 

Madam Chairperson, it is very saddening to see that ZESCO is failing to tell the Government or the Ministry what is obtaining in that plant.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikazwe: Madam Chairperson, Ten years, since ZESCO took over, nothing has been done to that plant. It is just that the people of Chimbamilonga are very good. They are not like people in other constituencies who could have taken the pipes and used them as scrap metal. This has happened on the Copperbelt, in particular.

Madam, I implore the Ministry of Energy and Water Development and ZESCO in particular to be proactive. They should not be telling lies to the hon. Minister of Energy and Water Development by saying that they are connecting Kaputa District to the grid when they were given K3 billion and nothing has been done for Kaputa to date. They just scratched the wall from Mununga to Kaputa. We danced before the President when he announced that Kaputa will be connected to the grid. Therefore, who is delaying the President’s programmes?

Hon. Opposition Members: Sisala!

Mr Sikazwe: When are the President’s programmes going to be a reality? These people are de-campaigning him in one way or the other.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikazwe: We got excited when we heard that Kaputa would be connected to the grid, but to date, nothing has happened. At the moment, we are getting two hours of power from generators and they are saying it is costly to run them. Now, they are trying to bring another biomass programme when the Kapisha Geothermal Plant has not been completed.


Mr Sikazwe: Madam, I want to give a clear picture of the Kapisha Geothermal Plant. This plant is not new. The only things which are worn out are the valves and the pumps. There are special steam pumps that need to be replaced and a generator in a container that is as big as the one they are using in Kaputa. All we need is a go ahead and everything will be fine. There are sixty kilometres left to reach Kasaba Bay. Once this is done, this district will beat Livingstone in terms of tourism. I am saying so because everything in Chimbamilonga and Kaputa is natural. There are no artificial sites there. There are a lot of wild animals, fish and there potential for walking safaris. People should know that this is the gold for the Northern Province, especially Kaputa and Chimbamilonga. We are one of the richest people in Zambia. Our people are more than ready to pay for the power once it is provided to them.

Hon. Opposition Members: Tell them!
Mr Sikazwe: Madam, people in this area have been deprived of a lot of things. How do you expect Celtel to move to the area when you cannot utilise the plant which is already there? The people of Kaputa are like any other people in Zambia. Therefore, we need to develop the place. We are ready to pay any amount of money for as long as there will be no difference between Kaputa and Lusaka in terms of unit charges. If we are able to pay for diesel, what can make us fail to pay for electricity units? You are telling us that you are subsidising us in Kaputa, but you are doing it in limited places such as Kaputa Central. Once the Kapisha Geothermal Plant has been worked on, more money will be realised. There is enough heat and volcanoes have been experienced. In Zambia, it is only on the Lake Tanganyika where we can expect a Tsunami as scientific research has revealed. That is why there is that much heat that can produce power up to 500 mega watts.

Madam Chairperson, I would like to move to the water sector. I recall in 1977, the Water Affairs Department was very active in Kaputa. They undertook the challenge to use gravity water rather than spring water. Documentation on this is in the office of the Provincial Engineer. Gravity water does not even need power. You just lay a pipe and the spring will be releasing water, feeding to the tank. If you go to Nsumbu, you will find that the project was started. When descending at Chawishi, you will find a spring that is powerful enough to feed a tank. We also had to make a test tank which is at Nsumbu Health Centre at the moment. To my surprise, K800 million which was allocated last year has been reduced to K468 million this year. Why are we doing this when in Chimbamilonga, we have a project that not been implemented in the office of the Provincial Water Engineer?

Madam, I would also like to talk about boreholes. The European Union (EU) brought a very good system of solar power generation. We have to move from the hand pump type to solar power generation. The other project is in the Eastern Province where EU funded the extension of annex maternity wings in the health centres. They have used mono submersible pumps using solar power to generate water. Boreholes are inadequate for big catchment areas.

Madam, I am sorry to draw you into the debate. In Madam Chairperson’s constituency there are big villages such as Mutina that has a population of more than 3,000. Two boreholes are not enough for such a village.

Mr Sichilima: Point of order!

Hon. Opposition Members: Continue!


Mr Sikazwe: Madam Chairperson, I am trying to say that solar power is, indeed, very important in the Ministry of Energy and Water Development. Let us start using the submersible pumps. The Water Affairs Department must teach the Ministry about this type of energy to pump water. Let us give people safe water from the deepest grounds. You will find that after sometime, walls in the boreholes become dry and rusty. To that effect, there is a lot of iron in the water which can affect the health of the people.

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka (Namwala): Madam Chairperson, indeed, the people of Namwala are listening. I rise to lend my voice to the policy debate on the Ministry of Energy and Water Development. I support the allocation, given that the budget process, in its current form is very rigid, inelastic and was borrowed from an imperialist colonial process of the 1950s and 1960s.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: Madam, my solace is that when we sit next door, next month, we should put the budget process functions right in our constitution such that the bottom up process is enshrined. 
Madam Chairperson, energy is the core component of sustainable development. It is the principle stand alone factor in all aspects of socio-economic and environmental development. Energy is the engine of development, driving any economic activity and serves as a powerful tool in uplifting the livelihood in access to water, agricultural productivity, health and education.

Madam, it is for this reason that our country should strive to have a reliable supply of affordable electricity and fuel to be able to embrace sustainable development. This brings me to the central issue of national petroleum security. The Government is grappling with the issue of national petroleum security. They are on record of promulgating a dictum that Oil Marking Companies (OMC) be compelled to keep fourteen days’ reserve stock levels. 

Madam Chairperson, we should ask ourselves what fourteen or fifteen days’ stock would do for the country. Is the Government on your right telling me that if Indeni shuts down, they will supply fuel to this country for two weeks? In any case, what happens after two weeks? Is the Government going to ask Mr Mathani, or indeed, the President, to ask their friends with offshore connections to bail the country out? I look at the composition of the Executive, and my focus zooms in on the hon. Ministers of Defence, Home Affairs, Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources and Energy and Water Development and I ask myself whether these honourable gentlemen know what is at stake? Do they know that this relates to the national security for the Republic of Zambia?

Madam Chairperson, the Executive should be grappling with determining how long it would take to switch from Indeni to an alternative source. In other words, our national reserve should be able to cover our country for the period that Indeni shuts down. You should ask yourselves the question, “which is the alternative source. Is it South Africa or Angola? If so, what are the constraints”?

Madam Chairperson, if you pick a two-week mind boggle, indeed, you ought to be mind boggled. No sooner than there is a shut down at Indeni than people learn that there is a shortage in the country and start panic buying and stock piling. As a result, what would have been consumed in two weeks is exhausted in five days because people would be stock piling. Have we not seen this happen in this country before?

Madam Chairperson, the issue of strategic petroleum reserves is not the business of the private sector. The private sector can contribute, but the bulk of that strategic reserve should actually be built by the Government itself. 

Madam Chairperson, there is no serious Government in this world that has left the management of strategic fuel reserves to the private sector. How can you leave the strategic reserves of Zambia to England, through the British Petroleum (BP), America through Caltex or indeed, the French through Total? Hon. Mpombo, what will happen on that day when Britain no longer thinks that the Zambian Government no longer serves the strategic interest of the monarch or the Unites States feels that Zambia is swinging too far into the arms of China or Russia and they decide to hold key to the strategic reserves because you gave them the responsibility to hold the national strategic reserves?

Madam Chairperson, do these thoughts, even just for a moment, go through the minds of these honourable gentlemen on your right?

Mr Konga smiled.

Major Chizhyuka: I see that the hon. Minister of Energy and Water Development is smiling.


Major Chizhyuka: Madam Chairperson, in Zambia, we have storage facilities that were built by UNIP, a Government that took strategic security planning for our country seriously. After the Unilateral Declaration of Independence (UDI) and the oil shocks of 1973 and 1979, we built national strategic reserves at the Ndola Fuel Terminal and the first provincial terminals in Choma, Chipata, Kasama, Solwezi, Mansa and Mongu.

Madam, we should find a way of operationalising these storage terminals. It can be under a statutory body or Government company.  Their business would be to get the initial capital from the Government and sell the fuel on a regular basis while maintaining the agreed maximum for national security. That way, they would maintain a general throughput. There are examples, all over the world, of this strategic arrangement. Singapore and Botswana maintain such a tank farm. When I think of Botswana, I remember their army coming to our country to train so that they could learn the systems used to marshal the affairs of the nation. You know what? Botswana learnt something because now, it maintains a six months’ strategic oil reserves when this Government is talking about fourteen days.

Mr Nsanda: Fourteen hours.

Mr Mwenya: Shame!

Major Chizhyuka: South Africa maintains even more.

Madam Chairperson, it is important that this issue of the strategic reserve should get the hon. Minister of Energy and Water Development and those who are planning for the national security of this country, the hon. Minister of Defence and the hon. Minister of Home Affairs to start dealing with the issue of the national strategic oil reserve with absolute magnanimity, confidence and patriotism for mother Zambia.

Madam Chairperson, I would like to come to the issue of electricity. In analysing the current electricity bills of our country, and empirical evidence does exist, we suggest  that breaking up the Zambia Electricity Supply Corporation into three separate entities should be documented and placed on the lap of the Government for consideration. For instance, it was known in 2001 that by 2007 and 2008, Zambia would run low in electricity generating capacity due to an increased demand in the mining areas. It was known then even without the springing up of the new mines that Konkola Deep, alone, would need about 450 mega watts of power.

Madam Chairperson, given this scenario, we have been told that to construct a hydro-electric power station of the magnitude of 100 mega watts, we would need between five and seven years. However, the energy needs of our country, given the ever rising mining activities in the Southern, North-Western and Copperbelt Provinces, cannot wait that long, because now, there is even talk of new cobalt, gold, iron, uranium, platinum and palladium mines. Do we have the luxury of time to wait for five to seven years? The answer is, no.

Madam Chairperson, it is as a result of this that I am suggesting that we start looking to coal-powered generators. We have a lot of excess coal. I have been looking at the calorific value of the Zambian coal as a fuel and its quality. At the same time, I have been observing the trends elsewhere in the world. It is this process that has led me to suggest that as an interim measure, Zambia should introduce coal-powered stations given the abundance of coal in the Southern Province.

For instance, the United Kingdom has commissioned two gigantic coal-powered stations of 800 mega watts each and there are six more plans. China has planned that in the next ten years they will have 544 coal-powered stations and India has also planned for seventy three of the same magnitude. The Chinese say that the development of coal is the basis of the development of their country.

This Government should now start to work at establishing, at least, two coal-powered stations, one at the cost source and the other one located at the lot. We should not fear the issues associated with the echo parameters of carbon and the depletion of the ozone layer because we cannot be the only ones. You saw the exhibition brought by the British in the foyer. Did you see matters associated with the plans in this country or any part of the country or somewhere in Europe or other areas, yet for 250 years, the British have been contributing the largest quantities of carbon and depleting the ozone layer.

Madam Chairperson, I can see that there is still some forty-five seconds before my time is up. In conclusion, I would like to suggest that we seriously think in terms of creating these coal-powered stations because there are easy to produce. We can put them in the interim while we are preparing the Kafue Gorge Lower, the Kariba North Upper the Itezhi-tezhi and indeed, other smaller stations in the Northern and Luapula provinces. Meanwhile, we shall get the wheels of the economy of our country turning because without that energy, we can hardly do the things that we want to for the betterment of our people and kill this poverty syndrome for our country.

 I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Energy and Water Development (Mr Konga): Madam Chairperson, I would like to most sincerely thank all hon. Members who have contributed to the vote on the Ministry of Energy and Water Development.

Madam Chairperson, allow me to respond to some of the issues and concerns raised by hon. Members. I will try to go in the chronological order of the presentations. I will start with Hon. Dr Machungwa who proposed that ZESCO should be broken down in two parts so that there is generation separate from the transmission as well as distribution and supply.

Madam Chairperson, the Government has been looking at this proposal, as other hon. Members have put it. Primarily, this is not a challenge that is very critical at the moment. However, I would like to thank hon. Dr Machungwa for that proposal.

Madam Chairperson, Hon. Dr Machungwa also spoke about the issue of some members of staff who had separated with the institution and attributed that to the poor performance of the institution that has lead to the current power shortage or load shedding as it is commonly known. Once again, I would like to assure the House and through this House the public at large that the Government regrets the inconvenience the load shedding is causing to industry, commerce, agriculture and even r the livelihood of the people. The Government is taking every measure to quickly redress the situation as I have repeatedly said in this House by quickly upgrading the equipment and the process of rehabilitation so that about 450 mega watts of energy that has been lost can be put back so that industrial, commercial and agricultural activities can consume.

Madam Chairperson, Hon. Mooya spoke about the blackouts that occurred late January and contributed this to the collapse of the tower that supplies power from the Kariba Power Station to the transmission centres at Leopards Hill. Well, I do not want to pre-empt the findings of the commissions of inquiry that the Government has instituted. Therefore, we are grateful for the comments, but I would like to wait for the report so that maybe, I can be able to comment in detail on that.

Madam Chairperson, Hon. Simama as well as Hon. Sikazwe have spoken about the provision of alternative energy to the country. I am very grateful for their comments. This Government, Madam, works tirelessly so that, like I mentioned when I gave a policy statement, we can use all the various forms of energy that are available in this country.

The new energy policy speaks about tapping into bio-mass which Hon. Simama spoke about. We are also going to consider issues of solar energy in this budget. Some studies are going to be carried out so that we can complement the hydro-energy that we have with other forms of energy. Therefore, I am very grateful for those comments.

Madam Chairperson, if I may be allowed to speak about the issue of Kapisha now, I would like to say that the project is receiving attention and it is going to be implemented. Studies are being carried out to see how we can get the Kapisha Geothermal Springs to provide alternative energy to residents in that part of the country.

Madam Chairperson, Hon. Mwansa Kapeya also spoke about the issues of utilising wind energy. Like I said, this is under consideration. Therefore, I would like to appeal to the House to give ZESCO the support that they need so that they can focus on their job. I am aware that they are getting a very hard beating almost all the time.

As a Government, we are definitely working on the other hydro power stations, especially the ones in the Luapula Province such as the Musonda Falls. There is a provision of K400 million this year, although Members have not realised this, for a study so that we can not only rehabilitate but also upgrade the equipment at Musonda, Chishimba, Lusiwasi as well as the Lunzuwa Falls. So, these Government programmes are on. This year, work will start so that we can complement the energy coming from the big stations in the south.

Hon. Chimbaka has also spoken about the solutions, but I would like to assure him that the Government is aware of all the issues that he has raised and will ensure that the challenges are addressed. Some of them are actually appearing in this year’s Budget.

I have already alluded to what Hon. Sikazwe said.  I cannot agree more with what Hon. Major Chizhyuka has spoken about. Energy is a critical resource for the development of our country. At the same time, energy must be considered a security product. Without energy or if it is compromised, we cannot, as a Government or a people, be productive. Already, as a nation, our industrial, commercial and agricultural activities are being hampered by the lack of one form of energy which is electricity. We have witnessed queues and demonstrations whenever petroleum products are in short supply. Therefore, the Government is working to rehabilitate the 4,000 metric tonne fuel terminal at Ndola.

In this year’s Budget, resources have been provided so that we can rehabilitate the provincial storage facilities and those are going to form the national strategic reserves. Therefore, I can assure the hon. Members that their concerns have been taken note of by the Government and it is doing something about them. Some of them are actually in this year’s Budget.

Madam Chairperson, once again, I would like to thank the hon. Members for supporting the Vote for the Ministry of Energy and Water Development.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 13/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 13/02 – (Ministry of Energy and Water Development – Energy Department – K5,550,679,605)

Dr Scott (Lusaka Central): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 22, Activity 07 – Phase out of Leaded Petrol – Nil. K100,000,000 was provided for last year, but there is nothing for this year. Is it because leaded petrol has been phased out, banned or is it because of some other reason?

Mr Konga: Madam Chairperson, on Programme 22, Activity 07 – Phase out of Leaded Petrol – Nil, this exercise was carried out last year. There is no budget provision this year because with effect from 1st March, there will be no more leaded petrol on the market. This exercise was carried out last year.

I thank you, Madam.

Vote 13/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 13/03 – (Ministry of Energy and Water Development – Water Affairs Department – K21,670,453,280)

Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 10, Activity 11 – Rural Water Development – Eastern Province – K600,000,000. Last year, we budgeted for K150,000,000, but this year, there is an increase of 300 per cent to K600,000,000, why?

Mr Shakafuswa: What is wrong with you? This means more boreholes will be sunk. These are obvious answers.

Mr Konga: Madam Chairperson, on Programme 10, Activity 11 – Rural Water Development – Eastern Province – K600,000,000, there is an increase because more boreholes will be drilled in this year’s Budget.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwila interjected.

The Chairperson: Order!

Vote 13/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 13/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 85 – (Ministry of Lands –K22,240,983,414){mospagebreak}

The Minister of Lands (Mr Machila): Madam Chairperson, I wish to thank you for this opportunity to address this august House on my Ministry’s programmes estimated for in this year’s Budget.

Since land forms the basis for human survival, it is extremely important that this resource is efficiently and effectively managed as well as administered.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Machila: It is for this reason that my Ministry has set for itself a very clear vision and mission statement which is:

“To efficiently, effectively and equitably deliver land, maintain up to-date land records and provide land information in order to contribute to  socio- economic development for the benefit of the Zambian people and the country.

Madam Chairperson, in line with the above mission statement, the Ministry of Lands is mandated to perform the following portfolio functions:

(a) Land Policy formulation;

(b) land administration;

(c) control of non-urban and non-municipal unauthorised settlement;

(d) land surveys and mapping;

(e) registration of properties through the lands and deeds registry;

(f) revenue collection on behalf of the Government through various charges and fees;

(g) provision of land for all purposes; and

(h) arbitration of land disputes through the lands tribunal.

The programmes in this year’s Budget are an expansion of the main programme in the Fifth National Development Plan under the Lands  Sector Chapter and are tailored towards the realisation of the national long-term vision of 2030 of Zambia becoming a prosperous middle-income nation by 2030.

Madam Chairperson, in order to give a clear scenario of how the Ministry performed last year, let me give a brief overview of the funding levels to my Ministry in the last two years to this august House. During the year 2006, this House approved a total of K18,218,803,974. Out of the approved amount, a total of K14,586,360,191 was released during that year. In 2007, a total of K24,283,533,138 was voted by this august House. Against this approved amount, a total of K18,327,017,253 was released to my Ministry during last year. Under the current year, my Ministry has estimated a provisional figure of K22,240,983,414.

Madam Chairperson, I wish to urge all Members of this House to support the estimates for the programmes for this year’s Budget for my Ministry. The Ministry of Lands, being one of the economic ministries, needs to be supported so that collection of revenue for the Government can be enhanced.

Madam Chairperson, with the support that the Ministry enjoyed from this House last year and the subsequent release of funds by the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, the Ministry was able to execute the following programmes:

Land Policy

The Ministry made tremendous progress on this programme. A final draft land policy was produced and is currently before the Policy Analysis Co-Ordination Division for subsequent submission to Cabinet for consideration. This consideration by Cabinet is now eminent.

Land Audit

My Ministry, in 2007, commenced a land audit exercise, starting with Lusaka Province. This year, we will continue with the Lusaka Province and later move to the Southern, Copperbelt and Northern provinces. After the four provinces have been audited, the programme will then be rolled out to the other remaining provinces. It is important to mention that this is a costly exercise and therefore, will be on going.

Land Identification and Alienation

Madam Chairperson, my Ministry continued to liaise with the councils, who are the ministry’s agents and planning authorities to make more land available for residential, commercial, industrial and other uses.

With regard to the identification of land for specific investments, the Ministry continued with this exercise so that land could be reserved for the promotion of multi-facility economic zones and other categories.

In this regard, I am pleased to inform this House that a number of land banks have been identified and secured in various parts of the country. I also wish to take this opportunity to thank our traditional rulers for having been supportive in releasing land for this very important programme. We hope that we can continue to work together for the benefit of the generations to follow.

Cadastral Surveys and Mapping Service

Madam Chairperson, during 2007, my Ministry undertook cadastral surveys and updated our national maps by revising all place names. The Ministry has also procured a modern digital photogrametric workstation. This equipment facilitates the production of maps through a combination of space satellite imagery. The equipment will also assist in the land audit exercise.

The Chairperson: Order!
Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.


Mr Machila: Mr Chairperson, I was speaking about the cadastral surveys and mapping services under the Ministry of Lands. However, the Ministry was not able to procure the printing press due to the frustrating protracted tender procedures that resulted in the budgeted sum being recalled to the Treasury and a consequent loss of revenue to my Ministry.

Demarcation of International Boundaries

Mr Chairperson, during 2007, bilateral meetings with Angola, the Democratic Republic of Congo, Tanzania, Malawi and Mozambique were held on the maintenance of our respective common borders. Work on these borders is on going and currently, there is a delegation from Mozambique in the country.

Disbursement of the Land Development Fund

Mr Chairperson, the land Development Fund is meant to help councils open up new areas for development through preparation of site plans and surveying. I am happy to report that my Ministry, last year, disbursed a total of K5,551,133 to sixteen councils throughout the country.

Land Registration

Mr Chairperson, I wish to report that the process of registering land is an important aspect of my Ministry’s responsibilities in order to ensure that people’s rights and interests are secured. In order to enhance the land registration process, the Ministry has been re-engineering the whole land administration system. In this regard, the Ministry has put in place the information technology (IT) infrastructure and has also started configuration of the new Zambia Land Administration System (ZLAS).

Construction of Customer Service Centre

Mr Chairperson, because of the good policies that the New Deal Government has put in place, the Government has continued to win the confidence of donors. In this regard, my Ministry, last year, with the assistance of the American Government, constructed a Customer Service Centre.

Madam Chairperson, the customer service centre is expected to significantly contribute towards the improvement of the land service delivery system once launched in the first half of this year, possibly next month in April.

Launch of the Core Values

Mr Chairperson, in my Ministry’s continued effort to reduce both perceived and actual corruption, last year, we launched the core values. These core values, which will culminate into a code of ethics, will assist greatly in the restoration of integrity in our officers as they execute their duties.

Revenue Collection

Mr Chairperson, as earlier stated, my Ministry is an economic one. As such, one of its major tasks is revenue collection. I am pleased to report that the Ministry has increased its efforts in the area of revenue collection. A total of K20,437,741,234 against a target sum of K10,911,292,333 was collected in 2007. This collection is more than double that for the previous year when the ministry collected K8,914,506,443.

Mr Chairperson, this year, in addition to continuing with the implementation of most of the programmes that were started last year, my Ministry will also undertake the following programmes:

(a) development and implementation of a citizens’ service charter;

(b) reengineering of the business processes in order to shorten and speed up the land administration, surveying and registration system;

(c) development of a code of ethics;

(d) commissioning and operationalisation of the customer service centre;

(e) installation of the Zambia Land Administration System (ZLAS); and

(f) sensitisation of the general public on guidelines for the allocation, survey and registration of both customary and state land.

Mr Chairperson, I wish to, once again, urge all hon. Members of this august House to support this modest budget for my Ministry.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo): Mr Chairperson, in supporting the vote for the Ministry of Lands, I have lamentations about an important Ministry such as this one where the budget has been cut from last year’s K24, 283,533,138 to this year’s K22.240,983,414.

Mr Chairperson, this Ministry has had several problems which we believe, by now, the new and young hon. Minister, Hon. Machila, has managed to sort out. If he has not, then we do not know where we are heading to. This particular Ministry needs the concerns of all of us.

In the past, we had the Land Board. If one applied for land, he or she had to be interviewed by this board and then on, approved. When the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) came into power, it thought that this was tedious and delaying and therefore, did away with the Lands Board. Now we have the Commissioner of Lands to make decisions pertaining to land. However, we now have a lot of irregularities such as giving land that is already owned by somebody else or one piece of land being given to many people. I think the commissioner has developed cold feet. He has become a bottleneck now and cannot make decisions. This commissioner is somebody who has powers representing the President. Now, he cannot make decisions and that is a very serious problem.

Mr Chairperson, I am not sure why a commissioner who has been long in that Ministry could now fail to make simple decisions. What is happening now is that people prefer to buy land from individuals who may have been allocated land. They are shying away from going directly to the Commissioner of Lands because there is no decision that he can make. The Minister of Lands and his permanent secretary also cannot make decisions. There is only one person there that can do this and that is the Commissioner of Lands, but he is ineffective. He has made himself irrelevant and therefore, we urge the hon. Minister, with the little powers he has, and we will tell the President on his behalf, to perhaps appoint another Commissioner of Lands who will be able to make decisions. 
Mr Matongo: A helper.

Mr Muntanga: Yes, a helper, if the current one cannot be removed. We need a helper to assist in making decisions. That way, we will make progress.

Mr Chairperson, we should remember that we even had the Sakala Lands Commission in the Southern Province way back in 1978. There were recommendations then on what land should be given to the people of Southern Province, what land should be designated national land for title deeds and even the titled land to be given to the people, but nothing has been done to date. As far as we are concerned, in Southern Province, the Sakala Lands Commission was useless because whatever recommendations it made were not implemented.

The worst enemy of all these issues is the Ruling Party, the MMD. They are the enemies of themselves. They have very good thoughts and plans, but somewhere along the line, they get bogged down.

Mr Matongo: They are incompetent in implementation.

Mr Muntanga: I am not sure whether this has do with incompetence, but when I look at the men and women that are in front here, they look very clever, smart and intelligent. So, what is the problem? Some years back, the then hon. Minister of Lands said that the Lands Policy was done away with and had to go to Cabinet. From that time of the hon. Minister of Lands, so many people have been appointed to this position and we now have the current one, Hon. Machila.

Mr Matongo: I think we need a second helper.

Mr Muntanga: Now, we do not know what is required for this Ministry to function properly. The only one who sends a truthful helper is Jesus Christ because when he sends a helper in the form of the Holy Spirit, it really helps. Does the Government need one? We thought they should be given one because on their own they are incapable of doing anything.


Mr Muntanga: I will pray for one. We have talked about it because sometimes we think that there is nothing more for these people to hear. What is it? Since the Land Board was ineffective, we allowed them to go ahead with the idea of a Commissioner of Lands, and yet he cannot take any action. What else does the Government want us to do? The only thing they want to do is allow corruption. In other terms, institutionalise corruption. There are people who have been charged several times with corruption concerning land. There is even that computer issue whereby several times somebody has not paid, but he or she has receipts. If you go to the Ministry, you find that the payment has been made, but meanwhile the land in question is supposed to be repossessed. What is still going on there? Why this level of incompetence in the Ministry of Lands?

Mr Chairperson, if we go to Lundazi, there are no people that own land. How do they borrow money from banks? In Lundazi, one cannot get a piece of land if he or she does not travel to Lusaka. The road is even impassable.

Mr Matongo: Especially in my friend’s area, whom I know.

Major Chizhyuka: Where?

Mr Muntanga: In Lundazi.


Mr Muntanga: People cannot get titles for land because they have to travel all the way from Lundazi on a very bad road to come to Lusaka.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Order!


The Deputy Chairperson: Order! The hon. Member debating is speaking very well but I am not sure whether the example of Lundazi is really meant to make a point. If it is, continue.


Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, I thank you very much for your guidance. I was talking to my friends in Lundazi the other day, who are farmers near a dam that is in the constituency of my colleague, the over learnt State Counsel. They said that the problem they have there is title deeds. They want to make dams, but making a dam on land for which they have no title deeds is a problem. For you to develop land and take the risk where you do not own the property is a problem. That is why I still remember that my friends there have a similar problem. When I come to the Eastern Province, where the Vice-President comes from …

Mr Matongo: Talk about the Western Province.

Mr Muntanga: No, the Eastern Province first. In Feira, people do not know who is in Zambia and who is in Malawi. We still talk about beacons not being completed and so forth. When are we going to complete these beacons? The Surveyor-General’s Office will give you a lot of excuses of why this cannot be done. Why can we not, for once, do things correctly? I find myself at pains to give an example of Botswana where, if they have a project, they will go there and have a plot demarcated, serviced and then the land is given. Here this does not happen. When we went to Mporokoso, where Hon. Misapa comes from …

Mr Misapa: Hear, hear!

Mr Matongo: He is cisapi.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Misapa, not cisapi.


 Mr Muntanga: The district councils were waiting for money to come from the Ministry of Lands, but the Ministry of Lands released money to a person they do not know. To date, the Mporokoso District Council has not yet received the money from the Ministry of Lands. Letters were written to the Ministry, but nothing has been done about it. If you cannot tress a mere cheque of K80 million for the Mporokoso District Council which you have given them for development, how do you expect us to support you? Now you are talking about supporting the districts. I would like to tell you, hon. Minister, to trace the money that you allocated to the Mporokoso District Council first because it did not reach the recipients.

Major Chizhyuka: And no school in Liuwa.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairman, worse still, I think I agree with the Litunga for the Western Province who wants land to be for himself and his subjects. By this, he is doing fine because in the Southern Province, we are suffering because we have given land to the State. You can own your land there, but tomorrow, there will be someone occupying your land. In Lukulu and other places in the Western Province, I think they are alright.

However, this brings me to another point. If in Lukulu, Liuwa and Shang’ombo people do not give land to the State, why are you giving them land development fund, from which country? You are getting the money that we, in the Southern Province are paying and giving it to people who are refusing to surrender land to the State. The same goes to Luwingu …

Mr Matongo: Even the fees to …

Mr Muntanga: Can we ask for a helper. The urge to cry is gone. One day, I will just beat them up.


The Deputy Chairman: No, you are not allowed to beat them.


Mr Muntanga: I will meet them outside.


Mr Muntanga: Boers who were farmers dealt with impossible Africans who were well educated by beating them up. The best farm worker is an easterner. When he is beaten up, he would say, “muzungu anikonda (my boss loves me)”.


Mr Muntanga: They are the best farm workers. These people on your right, I think they want to behave like muzungu anikonda so that we can start kicking them and they can listen and do something good for once.

Mr Chairperson, everything that we do depends on the Ministry of Lands. We had people selling about 20,000 hectares of land to some people in South Africa. You remember, there was a former Deputy Minister of Lands who sold land in a bar and that transaction was nearly approved. Therefore, why should we have such things now? They are capable of selling land when they are in a bar to you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: This is the problem. Hon. Minister, this money that you have been given, for once, bring this Lands Policy so that we see that you are working. If we do not receive it this year, then you are just in the same bundle as the other ministers.

Mr Matongo: Like Naido!

Mr Muntanga: Yes, like Naido. They spend more time quarreling and taking each other to court. Who is going to court now? We want something to be done properly so that people can own land and use it for security.

Major Chizhyuka: Things are terribly bad.

Mr Muntanga: They are terribly bad.


Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, I am worried about the pace we are going, talking about development, praising ourselves for development, having commissioners who cannot make decisions and having ministers who do not know what they are supposed to do. They are literally scared. The civil servant has taking control of every one of you. It is very bad indeed.

Major Chizhyuka: I agree that is bad.

The Deputy Chairman: Order!

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, I am trying to uplift them. It is even better to give the land back to the chiefs because chiefs can allow you to farm without any problems. We convinced the banks to give loans to those who own traditional land who want to develop their land. We gave an example of the Western Province where the chief’s letter was enough authority for one to get a loan. In the Western Province, even if you own land on top of an anti hill or where there is water around you, if the chief gives you a letter authorising you to be on that anti hill, that is enough for you to be considered for a loan. My brothers in the Western Province own anti hills and hope to be farming there for life and call themselves “land owner”.


Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, it is true, the hon. Member of Parliament for Senanga showed me part of the land he owns and it was on water. There is no way we can properly plan without this so-called Land Policy Documentation. We are tired of this story of it is now going to Cabinet for consultation. What is this? I think I should be carrying Dr Kaunda’s handkerchief to try and cry and show them that land is the reason we had to gain independence. It is the thing that brings about revolution.

Mr Matongo: Do not cry.

Mr Muntanga: I do not cry any more.

Mr Matongo gave Mr Muntanga his handkerchief.

Mr Muntanga: No, I would rather buy mine.


The Deputy Chairman: No. Address the Chair.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, these handkerchiefs are very dangerous.


Mr Muntanga: However, I would like the hon. Minister of Lands to be supported in totality. Look at the Ministry, it has about K22 billion like a province. How is he going to work?

Mr Matongo: Like a small department.

Mr Muntanga: Like a department. Here is this man who looks and talks like Obama.


Mr Muntanga: He needs to be supported. Obama in America is very popular, let us …


The Deputy Chairman: Order! Hon. Member, If you have finished debating, say so and wind up.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairman, the people in Lundazi, and I speak for you; need support to get title to land. In Lundazi, if you manage to get land Mr Chairperson, you will support me.

I thank you, Sir.


Mr Kasongo (Bangweulu): Mr Chairman, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to support this important vote.

First of all, the hon. Minister of Lands has acknowledged the fact that the Ministry is an economic one and that it has the potential to contribute economically to the development of our country. It also has the potential to raise a lot of revenue.

The major hurdle, hon. Minister, is that your Ministry has been rated the most corrupt ministry. Therefore, you have to treat that as a challenge on your part to clear that perception. I am aware that you have the ability to do that. That word came from the Head of State himself. Many of us have shared the same perception that has been recorded by the Head of State. That is the challenge that you have hon. Minister.

How do you do that?

First of all, you have to make sure that your Ministry is transformed into the most efficient ministry. That is the only way you are going to deal with that aspect of corruption. In the absence of creating institutions in your Ministry that will ensure that service delivery is done as quickly as possible, I am afraid you are going to fail as minister responsible for that Ministry.

Secondly, you should also clear the perception that many Zambians have that it is very easy for foreigners to acquire land to the exclusion of indigenous Zambians.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: You have to clear that perception because those are facts.

Dr Machungwa: New Kasama!

Mr Kasongo: Find out how many applications are in the registry pending approval, especially those applications which have been submitted by indigenous Zambians.

On the other hand, here is a white person, a Lebanese or coloured person who walks into the office of the Commissioner of Lands or any office, and obtains a piece of land within the shortage possible time.

These are real issues that you have to address hon. Minister. Even at our level, as parliamentarians and cabinet ministers, we are failing to access land in our own country. Other indigenous people who are economically affluent are not able to obtain any piece of land simply because of their black pigmentation.

They are consigned to a place suitable for destitution, and yet the white person, the Lebanese and name them all in colour will be given tracts and tracts of land within a short time.

Mr Mwila: Why?

Major Chizhyuka: Why, in our country?

Mr Kasongo: We can give a lot of examples in this House about former ministers who have become destitute in their own country. Former permanent secretaries, former directors and indigenous Zambians are destitute in their own country, and yet foreigners are constructing mansions. Take a walk along the road from the National Assembly Motel to the Arcades roundabout. Who owns that property? It is the foreigners, and yet Zambians cannot even access those beautiful pieces of land. What is happening now is that foreigners are constructing mansions for renting purposes in our own country. What is happening to our money? Do they have any bank accounts in this country?

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Mr Kasongo: They have nothing. Whatever revenue they generate from all these mansions that they are putting up is banked in Europe.

Hon Opposition Member: They even charge in dollars.

Mr Kasongo: They are even thanking you Zambians that you are so kind and generous. You also smile and say, “thank you”. What they are saying, for lack of a better term, is that you are empty up there (pointing to the head). That is the message they are sending whenever they say, “thank you”. When they toast a glass of wine and you toast, they are saying, “Look, you cannot think properly because the wealth is in our hands”.

Mr Muntanga: Ulibe skopo mwana.

Mr Kasongo: Mr Chairperson, land ownership is one of the tools that we can use to create wealth for this country. However, we are creating wealth for other people who are not Zambians. At the end of the day, when they have accumulated a lot of wealth, they will leave this country and begin to laugh at us. They are the same people who are so friendly to us today who will laugh at us when we leave this institution without any piece of land. They will be saying, “There is Hon. Holmes who was the Minister for Presidential Affairs, but has no land”. I have picked on Hon. Holmes because he was my Deputy Minister in the Ministry of Tourism and we got along so well. However, these are facts, hon. Minister. You should change the system to empower Zambians economically. Land ownership is one of the areas that you can use.

Mr Chairperson, look at the pomp that these people have even when you talk to them. They know that they have put up mansions in your own country and you are even renting their property. If, for example, you realise that you cannot find accommodation for a Minister or a Deputy Minister, you go to the same foreigners who have put up structures in your own country and you rent that property. Is that not an insult?

Hon. Opposition Members: It is a shame!

Mr Kasongo: Please, hon. Minister, do not underrate yourself. It is better for you to make decisions that will make you unpopular. As long you make such decisions on behalf of the Zambian people, we are going to support you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: Gone are the days when you made decisions to appease foreigners. What are you achieving from such arrangements? When you appease foreigners, you achieve nothing. Hon. Minister, we are going to support you as long as you begin making decisions to change things for the better. Change things in favour of the poor Zambians who have suffered a lot.

Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: As my hon. Colleague has ably put it, when our forefathers fought for independence and shed blood for us to be economically independent, they put emphasis on land. Have we driven out this foreigner from our own country? They are now coming back through open doors and not even back doors. They mingle with you. The moment they give you a dollar, you celebrate and give them a piece of land.

 Mr Chairperson, go to our national parks and find out who is running what? All these foreigners have put up resorts in our national parks. Surprisingly, some of them have even been given title deeds. Where on earth can you make your piece of land so cheap for a foreigner to be allowed to construct a lodge in a national park and given title for ninety-nine years? Can you believe it? Those are facts. You can go to the Ministry of Lands and prove for yourself. These are facts. Meanwhile, Zambians have been converted into squatters in their own country. Are you happy when foreigners call your own people squatters?

Major Chizhyuka: Foreigners.

Mr Kasongo:  A foreigner calling your own people squatters who are squatting in their own country. They have the comfort and everything, yet they turn to your own people and say “we can employ you if you want to become a farm worker or a labourer”.

Mr Chizhyuka: The same endorse.

Mr Kasongo: You go ahead and endorse such arrangements. Fellow Zambians, let us get angry.

Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: Let us make sure that we have the tools in our hands to determine our own destiny.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: Time has come.  Is it an answer for a foreigner to refer to Zambians as squatters and you are smiling simply because they invite you for diner or lunch?

How much do they spend when they invite you for lunch or dinner? It is not the same as the amount of money that they are externalising out of our own country, yet you dance, mingle and wine with them.

Please let us become angry and demand that Zambians be given the authority to run their own country with authority and power of integrity.

Mr Chairperson, regarding the question of the Land Policy, you are aware that the initiative was created in 2002 and a draft document was finalised in 2006. Now, we have been informed that Cabinet will be considering the same. We wish you well, but it takes time and boils down to the question of inefficiency.

Mr Chairperson, I was even surprised when I learnt that you had given a contract to a donor to come and tell us how to run that Ministry, how to eradicate corruption and manage the system. That is a very simple thing to do. You will realise that I am not joking. How did I create the Passport Office? Within a short time, people are able to get passports. You do not have to go to a donor to come and tell you what to do. We are here to provide these services. You could have invited all of us free of charge and we were going to reorganise that Ministry without any payment. You have lost a lot of money paying these foreigners just to create a system that is very simple in my view. We are here and I can tell you that we were not even going to give you a bill for having reorganised the Ministry. We are prepared to do that because this is our country.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Free service.

Mr Kasongo: Finally, …

Mr Kambwili: Awe shikulu, continue.

Mr Kasongo: I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister to look after our former Heads of State. You are aware that the current Head of State will be leaving the system. Let us help them. This arrangement where, for example, the former Head of State applied for a piece of land a long time ago and then you decide that you are going to give it to somebody else who only came yesterday and a foreigner for that matter, is not good.

Hon. Opposition Members: Shame.

Mr Kambwili: Tamumfwa imwe.

Mr Kasongo: You see, the impression that you are creating is that we Zambians do not know how to look after our former Heads of State.

Mr Kambwili: Elyo ewamishilepo ngatamulipo, ngamuli mumpanga.

Mr Kasongo: For example, the mansion for the First Republican President has not yet been completed. I do not even want to call it a mansion, but a house, simply because we dilly dallied in looking for a piece of land. You see, what is happening to our two former Presidents may even happen to the current one. Personally, I can assure you that I would not like to see our former Head of State suffer, no. We elected those people.

I would be the last person to see the current President suffering. They are entitled to a house. Look at Botswana. Immediately a president retires, he is given a House and that is good for the nation. I am telling you, what you are doing to our former Presidents can be done to the current President. Let us avoid all this. Hon. Minister, can we resolve that issue, amicably.

Mr Chairperson, let me, hon. Members and Cabinet Ministers, assure you that in 2011, the political landscape is going to change.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: Not even those that are parading themselves as presidential candidates will be there. God is great. He has already anointed a person who is going to takeover from President Mwanawasa.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: He may not come from there (Government side), he may come from outside this House.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear, tell them!

Mr Kasongo: Therefore, be careful with the way you handle national matters.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: Do not be personal. Otherwise, the same arrangements that you are putting in place to try and persecute others, will reflect on you badly.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Dr Kalumba (Chienge): Mr Chairperson, I would like to render my voice in support of this Vote and to particularly thank the young hon. Minister who is very intelligent and hardworking.

In thanking him, I would be amiss if I do not mention the …

Mr Kambwili: Tabamufwaya uyu!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! You are disturbing.

Dr Kalumba: Am I protected, Mr Chairperson?


Dr Kalumba: … the issue of land and borders. I come from a constituency that borders another country. This is an issue that I have brought to the Floor of the House many times. I would like to remind the House the fact that the former hon. Minister of Lands, Mrs Judith Kangoma-Kapijimpanga and the former Vice-President, Dr Nevers Mumba, made a very strong commitment to follow up on the issue surrounding the Npweto-Lunchinda enclave. This was with regard to the border between Zambia and the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) in the northern hemisphere of the country; Luapula and Northern provinces touching upon Kaputa and Chienge Districts.

Sir, I hope that the hon. Minister of Lands would be as aggressive on the issue of the border on this side as he has been on the issue of the border between Zambia and Malawi. It is important that Zambia knows where its borders lie. I raised the question of the Batembo people the other day and the hon. Minister of Defence, who was Acting Leader of the House, made reference to the fact that we live on the border. Therefore, he does not know whether those people are from DRC or Zambia. It is unfortunate because at the moment, there is no legal border between Zambia and DRC in Luapula Province, Kaputa and Chienge districts …

Mr Sikazwe: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalumba: … following the 1989 Delimitation Treaty which, I must add, has never been implemented. If we challenged, as the two Governments did, the 1894 colonial decision on the border, we must then have a new border. We do not have a new border. We cannot even speak of refugees because there is no border. There is no formal border between DRC, Zambia and the Luchinda Border enclave.

Therefore, it is important, hon. Minister, that we pay attention to this matter. At the moment, people living on the border, in my constituency, are complaining that there has been progressive encroachment even on the tentative de-facto border that was created by the Belgians. If you recall, Zambia lost almost thirty-five square kilometres of land during that particular Treaty. It was a big loss for a country such as ours conceding to a country as big as the DRC. Now, there are many questions still remaining to be answered in this respect, in particular dealing with the human rights issues of the people in the enclave who were and are supposed to be under the Northern Rhodesian authorities or the English rule. We were never consulted when the delimitation was conducted.

Now, I have argued that, as a matter of international law and human rights issues, by particularly citing the examples of the Cameroon-Niger Delta issues, we must attend to the human rights concerns of the people who were indigenous to that area who were occupied by the Belgians. They were never given the right to choose which sovereign authority they should belong to, following the Delimitation Treaty.

I think this is a matter the Government must, for the sake of Zambia’s sovereignty, pay attention to. It is one of the outstanding proposals in the current constitutional proposals in the National Constitution Conference (NCC), that Zambia defines its borders. We cannot remain a borderless State where we do not know where our people belong; where some school is, I think it is in Shang’ombo or some place where it is still unclear. It is important for Zambia to know where our borders lie. For us to protect our citizens, we must know their entitlement in terms of their rights and where the borders are. At the moment, hon. Minister, you can cross check this with your Survey-General, we do not have a formal border implementing the 1989 Delimitation Treaty. If we do not have then we have a very dangerous situation up north. Given our history, our colleagues have the tendency to encroach on our territory.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC. (Chasefu): Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank you for according me this opportunity to contribute to this vote.

Sir, I would be very brief in my debate. I will start by saying that land is the most precious gift that God has given to us, as Zambians. What is happening today? The foreigners are exploiting our trees and taking our timber to countries outside Zambia. We have mineral resources that have been exploited by foreigners who are so cheeky that they can question the new taxation policy that the Government has put in place. What is wrong with us? Our problem is management of this resource called land. Why is it that we cannot manage this precious resource properly?

Mr Chairperson, in town, we have people living in shanty compounds notwithstanding the fact that we have the capacity to create and open new land where these people can be resettled. What is wrong with us? Through the Chairperson, hon. Minister, I am urging you to take necessary steps to acquire some of the farms that are chocking the expansion of the city of Lusaka.

Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: By so doing, you will be making land available to the Zambians.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. K. B. Banda, Sc.: If we cannot have land here, where are we going to have land?

Major Chizhyuka: Nowhere!

Mr Kambwili: In China!

Mr C. K. B. Banda, Sc.: This is a Government of the people, but you are denying the very people who put you into office, access to land.

Sir, time has come to appeal, most passionately, to the Government to take a serious look at this. Misisi Compound has been with us for a long time, and yet people own vast tracks of land around Lusaka. Now they are developing housing estates where they are selling vacant land at exorbitant prices and you are sitting there. You are a Government of the people. Which people are you serving? Is it the foreigners? Why, for a change, can you not look at the plight of the ordinary Zambians; the down-trodden people; the people who religiously go to the polls to vote people into office?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. K. B. Banda, Sc.: Why do we not have a heart for our people? It is about time we touched our hearts and did the right thing for our people. Why is it that this Government is allocating large tracts of land to foreign investors, even those with no track records? Land at Baobab was subdivided with a view to allocating it to Zambians. What did this Government do? You took away this land from the Council and allocated it to one investor. Why?

Hon. Opposition Members: Why?

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: Mr Chairperson, is the welfare of that investor more important than the Zambians? It is more important to bring that investor…


The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Let us give the person debating a chance to debate. There are too many running commentaries.

Can he continue, please.

Mr C. K. B. Banda, Sc.: Mr Chairperson, is this investor more important than the many Zambians who would have benefited if this land at Baobab was allocated to them? Why is it that this investor is more important? Is it because he makes donations perhaps, to the powers that be?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: Please, let these donations which we get from these investors not blind us. Our loyalty must be to the Zambians. Worse still, a former President of this country applied for a piece of land at Baobab. He cannot even be considered for that piece of land in preference for an investor. Where are our priorities?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: Sir, if a former President who served this country for ten years cannot access a piece of land here in Lusaka, what about the ordinary people in Lundazi and Misisi?

Mr Chairperson, our friends have got it all wrong. We are advising you because we love you and want you to do the right thing for a change.

Sir, this takes me to the other aspect which relates to repossession of land by the State. This is one other grey area and hon. Minister, through the Chair, please take a close look at this area because what is happening is that most of the Zambians are losing pieces of land through these repossessions.

In most of the cases, the Ministry of Lands officials do not even inspect these lands. All they do is entertain a person and ask who has located the piece of land to them and then they would tell them to go and come back to them later. They will repossess this piece of land from a Zambian only to allocate it to an expatriate. These repossessions must be done properly. This is our country and we deserve this land. It is very difficult for Zambians to own land anywhere else outside this country. Why have you cheapened our land?  This idea of repossessing land without following the law must come to an end. I know, hon. Minister, as a lawyer, will pay special attention to this. Many people have been dispossessed of their land. There are so many cases in our courts even before the Lands Tribunal.

Sir, I therefore, urge your Ministry to take necessary steps so that this vice comes to an end. Having said that, I must give credit where it is due. The young man, the new Commissioner of Lands must not be judged harshly. He has only been there for a short time and it takes time for him to understand the operations. Let us not judge him harshly. He is doing very well. Some of us have day to day dealings with lands. I think the Commissioner of Lands and his officers are doing very well, but we must warn them to ensure that efficiency must be the order of the day.

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: We expect nothing short of efficiency and fairness. You should bear in mind that you are Commissioner of Lands to ensure that you empower us. We need land. We must not kneel in order to get land which rightly belongs to us. Therefore, I would like to encourage the Commissioner of Lands to keep soldiering on because he is on the right track.

Mr Chairperson, I have noted that in the Yellow Book, K61,400,000 has been allocated towards Creation of Farms and Small Holdings. This amount is very little. We are bemoaning the fact that Zambians cannot access land. If it is our wish to empower Zambians, this is a vote that deserves favourable consideration. We need the Commissioner of Lands to create more farms and small holdings so that Zambians who have worked can retire on a small holding. What is happening now where hardworking civil servants end up in a shanty compounds is unacceptable. These people have served this country and at the end of the day, they deserve to be given a piece of land where they can settle in peace. Therefore, I support the creation of farms and small holdings, but I think we need to pay more attention to this aspect.

Sir, it is not only the Zambia/Malawi Border that needs demarcation. I know that the Zambia/Democratic Republic of Congo Border and the Zambia/Tanzania Border need the same.

Mr Chairperson, my worry is that in Chama North, at a place called Kalovia or Kanyelele, Malawians are opening up big farms on the Zambian side and this hard working Government and purportedly, listening Government is doing nothing while our land is being taken away. I am urging you to move in swiftly to ensure that this border is demarcated. We cannot be losing everything. We are losing minerals and we are doing nothing about it.  The timber is being exploited and money is going out. The rivers have been poisoned …

Mrs Musokotwane Laughed.

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: … by exploration companies and we are doing nothing about it. Please, you listening Government, it is about time you took us seriously and started working for our welfare.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Major Chizhyuka: Mr Chairperson, from the onset, I want to say that I take the words of Hon. Kasongo as my own on land issues. As I support this vote, I want to declare a little interest in this matter. The intricacy of the land problems in this country is one I have been associated with from Bangweulu, Mpongwe, the Midlands up to the Southern Province.

Sir, I declare interest because before I came to Parliament, I was about to be arrested on account of matters associated with the land for our indigenous people in this country. When I hear Hon. Kasongo speak with passion on matters of land to the extent that he does, I take his words as my own.

Mr Chairperson, these colonialists and imperialists who killed your fathers and mothers…


Major Chizhyuka: … have been in this country for 104 years now. They have been farming on the farms in the Southern Province, Central Province up to Mulungushi for 104 years. The other time, I was told not to call these foreigners white people. Therefore, I will call them people who came from England. These people acquired huge tracts of land that are bigger than some islands. They own 120,000 hectares. The other time the hon. Minister of Lands sent a note to request for a name of a farmer and I gave him the name and the locality.

Mr Chairperson, do you understand what 120,000 hectares of land is for a man, his wife and three children? Sir, 120,000 hectares is 100 kilometres by twenty kilometres of prime land of our country owned by one white family. This is a lot of injustice to our people. Today there exists, in this country, a Government that is allowing those people to continue staying and farming on our land for 104 years. How much profit do these foreigners want to make which they have not made in 104 years? Is it not time that we started saying time is up and foreigners must pack.


Major Chizhyuka: I told you that I declare an interest because I get the pulse of the indigenous Zambian people. The other time, I picked up a phone and asked for five people and I had 1,800. At another time I was holding a press conference and only wanted a few people, but there were thirteen minibuses and three truck loads stopped by the police on account of land. There is no other solution. All this jargon about bringing a new law will not get us anywhere. Let us get the foreigners out of our country.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: Let them not own land. This is happening in Angola and Mozambique. There is no foreigner who owns land in those countries …

Mrs J. C. M. Phiri: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: …unless they are in joint venture with the Zambian people.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Shakafuswa uleumfwa?

Major Chizhyuka: This is our country.
Mr Shakafuswa: I enjoy such things.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Kambwili, can you see that you are starting something else. You are inviting Hon. Shakafuswa to respond. That is the kind of thing that we try to discourage. Do it quietly, and not like what you are doing. The speaker on the Floor is making a very important point.

Hon. Major Chizhyuka, you may continue.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chairperson, I am quite passionate about this. The solution is to get the foreigners out of our country. If this is a listening Government, the solution is to start getting land owned by foreigners. South Africa has started getting land from foreigners to give to indigenous South Africans. Namibia, where my colleague, Hon. Hamududu, came from has started getting land from foreigners to give to the indigenous people.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: I would like to tell you that the land issue in Zimbabwe was not started by Mr Mugabe. It was started by the indigenous people on one farm …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: … who thought they had been cheated for too long because the very basis of the struggle for the independence of Zimbabwe was land. I try to taper the feelings of our people because they are almost getting into the Zimbabwean situation. I said, “No because Zambia is a country of laws and regulations, it would be better to do it the right way”.

How do you explain a situation where people are living in squalor, misery and social degradation in Kanyama, and yet right behind, there is an Indian who owns huge tracts of land? The other time, I asked the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing to go and have a look at that land. She went by air and she could not believe that an Indian …

Hon. Member: Indian.


Major Chizhyuka: …can own so much land in our country.

Hon. Opposition Member: From Bombay.

Major Chizhyuka: Hon. Shakafuswa, how many Zambians own land in Bombay, Calcutta or Mumbai?


 Major Chizhyuka: How many Zambians own land in Shanghai or China? How many Zambians own land in Libya?

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Chizhyuka, I hope that in saying so, you do know that there are some Indians who are Zambians. Therefore, bear that in mind as you debate.

Major Chizhyuka: I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

This is the reason the other day I was saying that this business of citizen empowerment is rubbish.


The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hon. Chizhyuka, you are getting too temperamental.


The Deputy Chairperson: Can you use a moderate term? You may continue.

Major Chizhyuka: Mr Chairperson, South Africans call it black empowerment and are not ashamed to do that. Where is the problem in calling that policy the black empowerment? Look at us here. Who is not black?


Major Chizhyuka: We would like to create something so that at some point, we can allow someone of colour to own land.

Mr Chairperson, just after Lilayi, which is near town, there is a vast piece of land. I want to tell you that during my time in the Ministry of Defence, I have been to forty-three countries. I have never seen an animal farm so close to the capital city. These white men do not know how to use our land. It is just too much because now they have started bringing animals. This country has the largest number of game parks. If you leave Lilayi and proceed, there is a place called Lilayi Lodge, you will find a country of land, and yet honourable gentlemen, Zambians are suffering at the hands of foreigners.

Mr Kasongo: It is unbelievable.

Major Chizhyuka: Do you want a situation where the people of Zambia rise against the foreigners before you take action?

Mr Hamududu: You answer.

Major Chizhyuka: This is our country.

Hon. Minister, if that Land Policy which you are bringing to this House for us to debate is devoid of a clause that says, “enough is enough and no foreigner must be allowed to own land”, it is no document. There is no reason, whatsoever, that we can have those people in Kanyama living in squalor, misery and social degradation with so much land in the country. How many of you were in Kanyama for the last election?

Mrs J. C. M. Phiri: All of us.

Major Chizhyuka: People in Kanyama are living one on top of the other …

Mr Shakafuswa: Doing what?


Major Chizhyuka: …because of poor drainage. The water gets into their houses and yet, there is so much land in the capital city.

This Government is trying to create space in Chief Mukamambo’s area for the Chief to give land .

Hon. UPND Member: For a cemetery.

Major Chizhyuka: There is no land that the Chief can give you. Get that land which is after Lilayi because there is more land there than Chief Mukamambo can give. Get that land in Makeni and give it to the Zambians. There is more land in that area and you will not have to suffer for land in this country. Take a bold decision because this is your country. This is what we would do ourselves if we were in power.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: We would not even have to think about it because this is our country.

Can I tell you something? The land in Mugoto, Mazabuka, was owned by Zambians from 1973. It was demarcated and given as plots, titled and numbered. An Australian came and said he wanted to mine nickel. This Government smiled and sung choruses, saying the people have been given houses and they thought that they had done a good deed. Do you know what your friends who found themselves in a similar situation in South Africa did? Since you have very nice offices, when you go back, go on your web sites and search on the Bafokeni people in South Africa, the story is exactly the same as the story of Mugoto. Do you know what they did? They acquired 22.8 per cent shares in the second largest Platinum Mine. Do you know what is happening to the Bafokeni? They are turning out to be the richest people in the entire world. I am not only talking about Africa. Do you know what they are doing? They are building their own schools, hospitals, they have created the Bafokeni resources and they are also building an Olympic Yard in South Africa on which they are putting all the sports disciplines, including a football stadium one of which is going to be used for the 2010 World Cup. It is not built by the South Africans, but by a people on a piece of land like the people on Mugoto.

Mr Chairperson, what did the Zambian Government do? They pushed them to some dambo and gave them some huts and thought that this was enough. The other day, I told you about the figures regarding the nickel, they are getting peanuts. We still have time to change for those farmers who came to the Southern Province , Choma and own thousands of hectares of land. That land must be given back to the people

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: We want to see the Lamba people of the Copperbelt get back their power and the ability to survive because that is their land.

Mr Muntanga: Shares!

Major Chizhyuka: The Lamba people needed to have had shares in the mining enterprises on the Copperbelt. If you went to Chief Nkana and the other chiefs, they are still using candles. When you look at the foreigners who got the amethyst and emeralds, they live in sky scrapers. One West African even says that Zambians are so stupid after building Nkana Street and hotels in the Bahamas. He says that the wealth in Zambia is all his wealth.

Mr Chairperson, through you, I would like to urge the hon. Minister, since this is our country, to reclaim our country and own the land and become Zambians. At that point, we will have called ourselves an independent country.

  Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Machila: Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank all hon. Colleagues of this august House for their contributions to this debate and the policy statement.

Mr Chairperson, from the outset, I would like to state that a lot of the issues that have been raised as concerns on your left side are also concerns to us.  We also appreciate where some of the sentiments are coming from. We are alive to that fact that because of the sensitivities involved, we need to be careful as we move forward in addressing these issues to ensure that we do not end up damaging the already good work that has been done over the last few years by the Government.

Mr Chairperson, coming specifically to the contributions from hon. Members, I have noted the comments from Hon. Muntanga in respect to the functioning of the Office of the Commissioner of Lands and also on the delay in terms of the preparation of the Land Policy which, as I had already stated, has been completed in the sense that its presentation to Cabinet is eminent.

Mr Chairperson, in addition to that, I need to confirm with the Commissioner of Lands whether it is true that the people in Lundazi have no title, but I understand what Hon. Muntanga was getting at. As we move through our Decentralisation Programme, we anticipate that we will be able to deal with the application in areas such as that cited by Hon. Muntanga.

With regard to the land development farm from Mporokoso, I must confess that I am hearing this for the first time, but I have taken note of it and we shall enquire as to what happened with that.

Mr Chairperson, whilst on the same issue, we are aware that there are some councils that have abused the resources that were availed to them for various intended purposes. It is an issue that our officials at the Ministry of Lands together with our colleagues at the Ministry of Local Government and Housing are addressing.

Mr Chairperson, coming to the contribution of Hon. Kasongo, I would like to inform the House that  the process of transforming the Ministry into an efficient is ongoing and we believe that progress is being made. As things stand, even the process of transferring title has been reduced to sixteen days and will be reduced further. Previously, it took as much as thirty days or even more to conduct the same process.

Mr Chairperson, in addition, there was another issue mentioned by hon. Kasongo with regard to the ease with which foreigners are able to obtain land or own land in Zambia.

Mr Chairperson, at this juncture, let me add that hon. Members may have noticed that we have been running some adverts in the press with regard to the entitlement to own land under Section (3) of the Land Act by foreigners. We are also aware that there are foreigners who are holding land and they have been circumventing the law. I would like to assure the House that we shall deal with this issue, but at the same time, we do not want to be perceived as some kind of   witch hunting.  First and foremost, what we want is to ascertain and know exactly what the status is in terms of those who are non-Zambians or foreigners and are owning land.

Mr Chairperson, having said that, I should also add that as the Land Act stands, it does provide for foreigners staying in Zambia to own land. The provision is that foreigners applying for land in Zambia should be permanent residents in Zambia.

Mr Chairperson, at this juncture, I would also like to add that as Zambians we can also bare some of the responsibility of the Land that is ending up in the hands of foreigners. Zambians have been complaisant in the sense that they have been obtaining land from the State for next to nothing and in turn, they have been selling that land, leaving themselves landless and subsequently, turning round and complaining that foreigners are holding over land. Therefore, that is something that should not be overlooked and should be kept in mind as we consider how it is possible that the many foreigners that have been referred to have been able to acquire land.

Mr Chairperson, we have realised the importance of the economic empowerment of Zambians and the contribution that ownership of land can make to those efforts. This is an ongoing agenda for the Government to ensure that as much as possible, many of our people can have access to their own piece of the 75,000,000 hectares that we have in Zambia.

Mr Chairperson, I will combine the comments made by Hon. Kasongo and Hon. Chifumu Banda with regard to the ownership of land by the Second Republican President, Dr Chiluba.

Mr Chairperson, the applicable statute for former Presidents Act provides for the provision of land to former Heads of State. In providing for formers Heads of State in as much as they maybe entitled to land in an area of their choice and  for as long as that land is entitled, it is not possible to allocate land that is already on title without getting the consent of those who hold it on title.

I noted the sentiments that the land is in the hands of foreigners, but at the same time having had access to the proposals for the developments that are contemplated on land. I believe that with time, when those developments are completed, we will all come to appreciate them and we should also keep in mind that those developments will, in turn, be providing employment to many other people.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Machila: Mr Chairperson, coming to the contribution by Hon. Kalumba with regard to the delimitation of the borders, I would like to add that the 1989 Delimitation Treaty signed between Zambia and the Democratic Republic Congo realigned the border in the Mpweto Luchinda Enclave. The outstanding issue with regard to this border is a physical demarcation on the ground and this can only be done jointly by Zambia and DRC.

Mr Chairperson, hon. Members of Parliament will be alive to the fact that the outbreak of the war in DRC made this exercise very difficult. Zambia was ready during 2007, a provision had been made in the Budget for this exercise though, it is also necessary for our counterparts to also come to the table with the necessary resources so that this exercise can be done. I earlier stated in my Policy Statement that, we shall be looking at the delimitation and realignment of the borders not just with DRC, but also Tanzania, Mozambique and these are on going exercises.

Mr Chairperson, coming to the hon. Member of Parliament for Namwala, Major Chizhyuka’s contribution, we have, on a number of occasions, had an opportunity to discuss the concerns that he raised in his debate. We are, in the course of this year, looking at how we can reduce the pressures in terms of the demand on land in some areas. In the process of doing this, as well as the process of re-entries, we anticipate that there will be a requirement for us to do some compulsory acquisition so that we can open up some land in the high demand areas of Lusaka in particular.

At the same time, Mr Chairperson, many others on your left side, during the course of the by-elections in Kanyama, had the first hand experience of the challenges that are being faced on the ground there. In terms of the long-term solution for the residents of Kanyama, they may be a requirement with the assistance of the Office of the Vice-President to, in the long term, to find a site for most of those who are residing in areas that are constantly being flooded. If necessary, to acquire land that is already on title in terms of farms and large tracts within the precincts of Lusaka. We shall not shy away from taking responsibility. Mr Chairperson, that will be done.

Hon. Members:  Hear, hear!

Mr Machila: Mr Chairperson, at the risk of belabouring the issues that were raised by Major Chizhyuka, I would just like to state that we are, again, alive to the sentiments and the concerns that have been raised. There are many on our side who probably feel exactly the same, but do not have the liberty to stand up and say it in a manner that has been said here.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Machila: At the same time, Mr Chairperson, in conclusion, Major Chizhyuka referred to how, in South Africa, they define, under their empowerment provisions, as they refer to black empowerment. I would just like to state that the definition of black is quite broad. It includes coloureds, Indians and it even goes as far as to include Boer women.

With those few comments, I thank you, Mr Chairperson, and I would like to thank the hon. Members of this House for their support of this Vote.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 85/01 ordered to stand part of Estimates.

Vote 85/02 ordered to stand part of Estimates.

Vote 85/03 ordered to stand part of Estimates.

Vote 85/04 ordered to stand part of Estimates.

VOTE 46 – (Ministry of Health – K1,512,340,942,914){mospagebreak}

The Minister of Health (Dr Chituwo): Mr Chairperson, I wish to thank you for this opportunity given to me to deliver a policy statement on the Ministry of Health budget for 2008.

The Ministry of Health remains committed to the implementation of the Fifth National Development Plan (FNDP). The National Health Strategic Plan (NHSP) whose theme is “Towards Attainment of the Millennium Development Goals and National Health Priorities” is an integral component of the FNDP.

Mr Chairperson, for sixteen years now, Zambia has been implementing significant health reforms whose vision is to provide the people of Zambia with equity of access to cost effective quality healthcare as close to the family as possible. The vehicle for achieving our vision is an emphasis on primary health care. The NHSP was prepared at a time when the country and in particular, the health sector, was facing significant changes and challenges, including the following:

(a) High disease burden compounded by the HIV and AIDS epidemic;

(b) critical shortages of health personnel;

(c) deteriorating health infrastructure;

(d) significant legal reforms;

(e) on-going restructuring of the health sector;

(f) a weak economy; and

(g) inadequate funding for the health sector.

Mr Chairperson, it should be noted that all these factors have significant implications on the organisation and management of the health sector and that even today, we are still facing some of these challenges.

This situation called for prioritisation of interventions and systems, paying particular attention to areas that would make significant impact on health delivery service to improve the health status of Zambians. The NHSP was, therefore, developed on that premise. This explains why over time, we have been able to score successes among challenges.

The key principles that underpin NHSP are equity of access, affordability, accountability, cost-effectiveness, partnerships, decentralisation and leadership.

Mr Chairperson, let me share with the House the budget analysis and trends. I, from the outset, wish to commend the Ministry of Finance and National Planning for increasing the budget allocation for the Ministry of Health in 2007 by 36 per cent over that of 2006.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chituwo: I also wish to commend the Ministry of Finance and National Planning for the timely release of funds in the just-ended financial year, 2007. The Ministry of Health was allocated 10.8 per cent of the total discretionary National Budget last year. I am happy to note that this year, we have seen an increase to 11.4 per cent that puts in good stead towards eventually achieving the 15 per cent recommendation by the Abuja Declaration. In other terms, the budget has been increased from K1.2 trillion to K1.5 trillion out of which K975 billion will come from the general Budget and the difference through sector-specific donor support.

Mr Chairperson, my presentation will focus on three parts. Firstly, I will highlight the performance and achievements in 2007. Secondly, I will mention the challenges that we faced and thirdly, I will give the outlook for 2008.

Mr Chairperson, let me talk about the performance and achievements in 2007. The Ministry’s total budget was K1,272,263,213,104.

Mr Chairperson, with regard to the issues of human resources for health, Zambia is still facing a crisis. Our target in human resource is to provide a well motivated, committed and skilled professional workforce that will deliver cost effective and quality health care as close to the family as possible. Though we require 51,414 health workers to be able to provide optimal health services to the citizens, presently, we only have 26,523. As an example, Zambia’s doctor to population ratio presently stands at twelve medical doctors for every 100,000 people compared with the World Health Organisation’s (WHO) recommendation of twenty medical doctors per 100,000 people.

Nonetheless, for comparative reasons, here are some ratios that we might find useful:

 Country   Ratio

 Malawi   2 doctors per 100,000

 Tanzania  2 doctors per 100,000

 Uganda   8 doctors per 100,000

 South Africa  77 doctors per 100,000

Mr Chairperson, I have, from time to time, highlighted the human resource situation in the health sector as needing urgent attention. My Ministry has in place the Human Resource for Health Strategic Plan. Implementation of this plan is in progress.

I am happy that following authority from the Treasury last year collectively by the Government, and the conveyance of this authority to employ by the Public Service Management Division, my Ministry embarked on an incremental recruitment of health workers that shall see an increase in the number of health workers to approximately 30,000 this year.

Mr Chairperson, following this, the Ministry of Health was given authority to employ 5,263 health workers as new creations and retain 26,523 health workers already in the approved establishment. Consequently, we recruited 1,300 new health workers in 2007.

When the recruitment exercise is completed, the establishment of the Ministry of Health will reach over 30,000 against our targeted 51,414 health workers.

Mr Chairperson, on training, I am glad to report that the Government succeeded in 2007 by putting in place measures to enable schools of nursing that had once been closed because of a shortage of nurse tutors to be re-opened. These schools are - and I can see a smile on my young man there, Hon. Kambwili -, …

Mr Kambwili laughed.

Dr Chituwo: … Kalene, Roan and Nchanga. The expansion of Kabwe and Chipata Nursing Schools was done last year. These schools are now able to train enrolled midwives in addition to training enrolled nurses.

It should be noted that Chipata, Roan and Nchanga Nursing Schools will, from this year, provide a direct entry training of midwives to help meet the critical shortage of midwives in our country. In addition the Chainama College of Health Sciences will continue to play a significant role in producing core health workers for the health sector in Zambia. This effort will, in turn, significantly contribute to the reduction of maternal, newborn and child mortality rates.

Mr Chairperson, I must now turn to capacity building. Intakes in all our schools that produce health workers were increased by about 50 per cent across the board. For the quality of graduates not to be compromised, a programme to expand training institutions country-wide was started through the construction of modern classrooms and hostel accommodation and this is still is progress. In 2007, about K7.2 billion was invested in increasing the capacity of our training schools.

Mr Chairperson, on retention, in 2007, the Zambia Health Workers Retention Scheme that was piloted on medical doctors was expanded to other health workers. This scheme now covers clinical officers, nurses’ tutors, environmental health technicians, pharmacists, laboratory technicians and midwives. Emphasis on enrollment to this scheme is placed on staffing our remote and hard-to-reach health facilities.

The construction and rehabilitation of rural houses for health workers and provision of radio communication facilities and solar panels to serve as non-monetary incentives is still in progress. A total of K6.5 billion was invested in rehabilitating existing staff houses and constructing new ones in hard-to-reach areas. A total of ninety-four houses were constructed.

Mr Chairperson, on infrastructure, our national target on health infrastructure is to significantly improve on the availability, distribution and conditions of essential infrastructure and equipment so as to improve equity of access to essential health services.

In 2007, construction of hospitals was in progress in Samfya, Kapiri Mposhi, Chadiza, Isoka, Mumbwa and Shang’ombo districts while a total of sixty-two health centres were rehabilitated and extended. A total of seventy-eight health posts, with accompanying housing were completed last year.

On the other hand, in order to alleviate the shortage of housing for staff in public health facilities, thirty-two staff houses in sixteen districts were also constructed countrywide in areas such as Chavuma, Mufumbwe, Kalabo, Lukulu, Kawambwa, Milenge, Mungwi, Kaputa, Masaiti, Lufwanyama, Chadiza, Chama, Mumbwa, Mkushi, Gwembe and Namwala. A total investment of K96 billion on infrastructure was made last year.

Mr Chairperson, on medical equipment and transport, the provision of quality health services requires modern and reliable equipment. Over the years, due to lack of investment in replacing medical equipment, the medical equipment in our health facilities reached a deplorable state. To reverse this trend, the following measures were put in place:

In 2003, my Ministry embarked on a countrywide programme to provide diagnostic and therapeutic equipment at a cost of K125 billion with support from the Netherlands Government. From this amount, the Zambian Government contributed K62.2 billion. The Equipment procured included x-ray, theatre and ultrasound for the University Teaching Hospital, Kitwe Central Hospital, Ndola Central Hospital and seventy-one hospitals countrywide.

Further, in order to ease transport constraints and strengthen the health referral system, the Ministry of Health, last year, procured 164 vehicles worth K25 billion that will be distributed to all the seventy-two districts, twenty-two hospitals and twenty-seven training institutions countrywide.

The distribution of these motor vehicles is still in progress. In addition, 360 motorbikes were procured for hard-to-reach centres. These motorbikes will be modified to carry the sick, especially.

Mr Chairperson, it is my hope that the difficulties which we are facing in transferring patients such as expectant mothers to higher level health facilities will now be significantly reduced.

Mr Chairperson, let me say something about medical supplies that include syringes, needles, bandages, vaccines and many others. Our target on drugs and medical supplies is to ensure availability of quality, adequate, efficacious, safe and affordable essential drugs and medical supplies at all levels, through an effective procurement system and that of seeking co-operation with our co-operating partners.

Mr Chairperson, my Ministry spent K120 billion in 2007 on drugs, vaccines and medical supplies. Tremendous progress was made in ensuring availability of drugs, vaccines and other medical and surgical supplies in our country. Drug availability has significantly improved, especially the supply of the rural health centre kits, through a committed funding procurement arrangement supported by our donors and the Government.

With regard to vaccine procurement, the Government implemented the Vaccine Independency Initiative that entailed that the Government will gradually take over completely, financing procurement of vaccines from the donors. Alongside ensuring financial sustainability for drug procurement, my Ministry also strengthened the drug supply management chain that includes forecasting, quantification, procurement and distribution systems.

Mr Chairperson, one important ingredient in our drug, medical and surgical supplies is warehousing. The Medical Stores Limited was refurbished at a cost of K6 billion. In its present state, it can serve as a regional warehouse and distribution centre for drugs and other medical supplies.

Each district and health facility formed Receiving Committees to ensure that drugs and medical supplies are well accounted for whenever these were sourced. In addition, we shall put in place Health Advisory Committees for each district and each of our major hospitals so that there is community participation in the management of health in our country. It is hoped that with these in place, the reported incidences of pilferage of drugs and medical supplies will significantly reduce. These efforts contribute significantly to improving access and quality of our services.

Mr Chairperson, my policy statement will not be complete if I do not say something about malaria. The House may be aware that malaria continues to be the number one killer disease in our country, particularly among under-five children and expectant mothers.

Mr Kasongo: Like your neighbour there.

Dr Chituwo: Our target is to halt and reduce the incidence rate of malaria by 75 per cent and mortality due to malaria in children under the age of five by 20 per cent by 2011. We are firmly on track, as the malaria disease burden has already started reducing. For instance, the number of diagnosis attributed to malaria at our health facilities declined from over 400 cases in 2006 to under 375 cases in 2007 and so did the number of deaths from malaria.

Efforts to improve case management of malaria, including distribution of rapid diagnostic kits in facilities, procurement and distribution of the first line drug since malaria is on going.

In 2007, preventive programmes included prevention of malaria in pregnancy whose coverage now is at 62 per cent, which is above the Abuja target of 60 per cent. In-door residual spraying with a high coverage of 87 per cent in fifteen targeted districts and these are, just to remind the House, Lusaka, Kitwe, Livingstone, Ndola, Solwezi, Kabwe, Luanshya, Mufulira, Chililabombwe, Kafue, Mazabuka, Kalulushi, Chingola, Chongwe and Kazungula.

Further, mass distribution of mosquito nets in malaria prone areas was completed. At the end of 2007, we distributed well over three million nets in the country.

Mr Chairperson, with regard to the issue of HIV/AIDS, our target on HIV/AIDS and other STIs is to halt and begin to reduce the spread of HIV/AIDS and STIs by increasing access to quality HIV/AIDS, STI and Blood Safety interventions.

From only two sites offering Anti Retroviral Therapy (ART) services in 2003, we scaled up these services to all the seventy-two districts and by the close of 2007, we had 322 ART sites in the country. By the close of the year, against a projected number of 280,000 people in need of ARVs, we had 156,753 receiving these life-saving medicines, 55 per cent of whom are women.

Through the Prevention of Mother-to-Child-Transmission, children are now born HIV negative from HIV/AIDS positive mothers. Prevention of mother-to-child-transmission services have reached universal coverage in our country, meaning that the services are readily available in all the seventy-two districts. However, we still have a challenge to reach every rural health centre where delivery is taking place.

So far, 35,314 expectant mothers have benefited from the prevention of mother-to-child-transmission programme. Through this strategy, Zambia has the grand opportunity to having a generation with babies born free of HIV/AIDS.

In 2007, we had about 12,140 children on ARVs. Our projected target is about 20,000. In addition, the Government, through my Ministry has strengthened paediatric ARTs through putting in place diagnostic tools that can detect the virus in the first weeks of life.

Mr Chairperson, my statement will not be complete if I do not say something about treatment abroad. In order to curtail the number of patients being referred abroad for cancer treatment, our first Cancer Disease Hospital built at over US$ 5 million was commissioned in July, 2007 by His Excellency the President, Dr Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC. To ensure that this facility is manned by skilled Zambians, we trained four radiation oncologists, three medical physicists, seven therapy radiographers and two maintenance technicians.

In 2007, a total of 300 patients were treated on radiotherapy, translating into a cost saving to the Government of about K11.1 billion.

Further, Mr Chairperson, the University Teaching Hospital had three dialysis machines installed. The capacity for open heart surgery was also developed. The policy of the Ministry is to harness public private partnerships and to facilitate the building of local capacity for specialised treatment in the private sector.

It should be noted that over 90 per cent of patients who we send abroad for treatment are poor and cannot afford to pay for treatment from their own pockets.

Mr Chairperson, we acknowledge the role that partnerships play in ensuring that we meet our health goals. We shall continue to promote these. For example, it is through health partnership that now we have a hospital that specialises in child orthopedics and neurological care called Beit-Cure International Hospital, situated in Lusaka. In fact, it is in Mandevu Constituency.

Mr Chairperson, on the issue of child health and nutrition, our target on child health is to significantly improve nutrition and reduce the under five mortality by 20 per cent from the current 168 per 1,000 live births to 134 by 2011.

I am glad to inform the House that Zambia is now a polio-free country.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chituwo: Since 2003, our country has not recorded a single measles-related death at our health facilities.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chituwo: For our achievements in child and new born health, the Global Alliance on Vaccines and Immunisations (GAVI) awarded us a prize for recognition and achievement.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.

Dr Chituwo: Mr Chairperson, before business was suspended, I had just concluded sharing with the august House that due to the efforts of the Government, particularly the Ministry of Finance and National Planning and the Ministry of Health, the Global Alliance on Vaccines and Immunisations (GAVI)  gave us a prize of recognition and achievement in the area of immunisation.

Mr Chairman, in 2007, my Ministry scaled up implementation of programmes aimed at reducing the disease burden through prevention programmes such as the Expanded Programme on Immunisation (EPI), the Integrated Management of Childhood Illness (IMCI), the Roll Back Malaria (RBM), the Prevention of Mother-to-Child Transmission of HIV(PMTCT) and the strengthening of our pediatric HIV/AIDS treatment.

Mr Chairperson, as a result of these efforts, it is worth mentioning that the immunisation coverage for children under the age of one, reached an all time high of 96 per cent, one of the highest in the Southern African Development Community (SADC) region. An investment of K2.1 billion was made on child health and new born care last year.

Mr Chairperson, let me say something about Integrated Reproductive Health. The provision of Reproductive Health Services that includes emergency, obstetric care and Family Planning Services is a national health priority. Training of health workers in emergency obstetric care was rolled out, the training curriculum of direct entry midwives was finalised and ambulances were purchased, the maternal, new born and child health partnership was also launched.

Mr Chairperson, let me now turn to Lifestyle (Non-communicable Diseases), Research and Traditional Medicine. We recognise the value that is intrinsic in our traditional medicines. Research into these shall continue, as we seek their safe and efficacious usage. The incidence of lifestyle diseases such as diabetes and hypertension is on the rise in our country. This area of health shall receive its share of investment this year and we shall continue with the research on herbal remedies that started last year. Research guidelines have been developed and the National Ethics and Research Committee has been formed.

Mr Chairperson, we cannot succeed without strengthening the health system. As earlier mentioned, the human resource, drugs, infrastructure and equipment are key inputs in the health care delivery system. Service provision, however, also requires the existence of well functioning management systems that will also receive attention in 2008. This will include the new bottom-up planning tool that was piloted in nine districts to address bottlenecks that hinder service delivery and revising and strengthening the Health Management Information System so that these can add to our heath care delivery system.

Mr Chairperson, let me now highlight the challenges we faced last year and some of which are still there. As alluded to earlier, in the area of human resource, challenges include the training of adequate numbers of health workers, placement of health workers in our health facilities, retention of health workers, creation of a human resource data base, dismantling of the debt that we owe our health workers and poor staff attitude.

Mr Chairperson, we faced challenges in infrastructure and still, these remain outstanding. There are nineteen districts without district hospitals. In these districts, patients still have to be referred to first level hospitals in neighbouring districts usually located several hundred kilometres away.

Mr Mwila: Hear, hear!

Dr Chituwo: This situation, coupled with poor road and communication networks, challenges in transport and hospital infrastructure work against operating a smooth patient referral system, thus over burdening the lower levels of care. It is factors such as these that explained the still unacceptably high maternal and child health mortality rates in our country.

Mr Chairperson, on the issue of drugs and medical supplies, challenges include the alleged pilferage of drugs and medical supplies by health workers, rationale use of drugs and overall weak management of drugs and medical supplies which ultimately cause artificial sporadic shortages of essential drugs.

Mr Chairperson, with regard to the issue of medical equipment and transport challenges, we still have obsolete equipment in some of our hospitals.

Mr Chairperson, in the area of malaria, we still have some challenges. These are basically attitude and behavioral related, as most families do not use the nets for their intended purpose, but rather for fishing. For instance, although the national coverage of insecticide treated nets is now about 50 per cent, the utilisation still remains a challenge only at 33 per cent.  Hon. Members of this House are called upon to urge their constituents to use these nets for their intended purpose. We have continued to receive reports that the Luapula and Western Provinces have some incidents of misusing these nets for fishing instead of protection from mosquito bites.


Dr Chituwo: Mr Chairperson, on the issue of treatment abroad, challenges still remain in terms of quality specialised treatment involving diseases of brain and organ transplant. The Computerised Tomography (CT) Scan at the university Teaching Hospital (UTH) cannot meet the demand in the area and Magnetic Resonance Imaging (MRI) at this stage is not available.

Mr Chairperson, with regard to the challenges we face in HIV/AIDS, a huge disease burden is accounted by HIV/AIDS. We still have inadequate equipment. We still have to integrate ART into the mainstream of health care provision and the other programmes such as Voluntary Counseling and Testing, PMTCT, ART and TB. Logistics need to be improved, the partnering of private sector needs to be expanded, and the engagement of volunteers in the provision of ART and counseling. 
Mr Chairperson, we are still faced with a high malnutrition level in our country that stands at 47 per cent.

Mr Chairperson, in the area of integrated health, challenges, as alluded to …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I think we are consulting loudly. Let the hon. Minister be heard. It is in our interest that we hear what he is saying.

Continue hon. Minister.

Dr Chituwo: I thank you Mr Chairperson. We still have a high level of maternal mortality rate, inadequate numbers of skilled birth attendants such as midwives and a limited capacity for emergency obstetric care.

 In the area of what now is known as Lifestyle Diseases, Research and Traditional Medicines, the challenges include limited financial resources, low awareness of non-communicable diseases and the lack of a national data base on non-communicable diseases.

Mr Chairperson, there are gaps in our resource envelope that limit our efforts to scale-up interventions aimed at accelerating the attainment of the Millennium Development Goals. The development and implementation of a comprehensive Sexual Health Insurance Scheme still remains a challenge.

Sir, based on our performance and achievements in 2007, allow me to end my budget statement by giving this House a picture of what we intend to do to improve on this. We intend to execute the budget allocation in collaboration with our co-operating partners and other stakeholders, including parliamentarians. The proposed budget for the Ministry is approximately K1.512,340,942,914 trillion.

If granted authority by the Treasury, we plan to recruit 1,800 new positions in 2008 to raise our staffing levels from 30,883 to 32,683. It should be noted that the positions of clinical officers and enrolled nurses at the health centre level and other members of staff required for the newly completed facilities have also been included in the recruitment plan.

Currently, it is worth noting that we are in the process of recruiting health workers, particularly medical doctors who might have been omitted earlier during the recruitment process. Furthermore, in order to improve the quality of health services provided to people with disabilities, we shall recruit sign language interpreters to be deployed in strategic health institution countrywide.

Mr Chairperson, the Ministry of Health will continue to seek improvement in the welfare of the members of staff through continued collaboration with our partners. To curtail the brain drain of core health workers, we shall continue strengthening the public health sector through the provision of monitory and non-monitory incentives and scaling up of the health workers retention scheme. It is hoped that these measures will significantly improve the country’s human resource situation and directly impact on the quality and utilisation of the health services.

Sir, our policy is that the average distance between any community and the nearest health facility shall be five kilometres. This year, with an investment of K102 billion, my Ministry intends to do the following:

(a) embark on the construction and rehabilitation of more health centres so as to reduce the distance people have to travel to access health services;

(b) complete the construction of hospitals in Shang’ombo, Mumbwa, Kapiri-Mposhi, Chadiza, Isoka, Mufumbwe and Samfya;

(c) commence the construction of hospitals in Lusaka, Lufwanyama, Kaputa, Chienge- …

Dr Kalumba: Hear, hear!


Dr Chituwo: …-may I emphasise that Chienge is definitely on the list …


Dr Chituwo: … Chama and Lumwana;

(d) continue with the rehabilitation of the University Teaching Hospital, Kitwe Central Hospital, Ndola Central Hospital and six provincial hospitals in the country, all to improve the quality of health provision; and

(e) rehabilitate and expand twenty-three training schools countrywide.
To ensure a sustainable supply of drugs and medical supplies, we shall strengthen the systems for forecasting, quantification and procurement of drugs.


The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Continue, please, hon. Minister.

Dr Chituwo: Our drug storage and distribution system will be strengthened further through the rehabilitation of pharmacies in hospitals and health centres. We shall build capacity of our district and hospital pharmacists, including health centre staff in rational use and management of drugs. To curb pilfering of drugs, we shall be working in collaboration with the Zambia Police to establish pharmaco-vigilance units.

We intend to replace some obsolete equipment at the UTH, Kitwe Central and Ndola Central hospitals, six provincial hospitals and thirty district hospitals. We intend to purchase more ambulances and marine transport.

Hon. Kasongo, emphasis will be made on marine transport.


Dr Chituwo: We intend to continue with the distribution of insecticide treated nets, encourage the rational use of anti-malarial drugs by our health workers and continue with the policy of prompt and effective treatment of malaria. We also intend to continue with the intermittent treatment of malaria in pregnant women.

Mr Chairperson, we also have intention of scaling-up indoor residual spraying to thirty-six district from the current fifteen.

Mr Chairman, we intend to maintain those on ART and place 52,000 adults and an additional 8,000 children on treatment this year. We will continue to roll out the availability of the new drug combination. We intend to continue to raise awareness about the importance of voluntary counselling and testing.

Although we may refer patients abroad whenever it is extremely necessary to do so, our policy is to further build local capacity in radiation oncology, neurology nephrology and cardiology to ensure that Zambians receive specialised treatment locally, as this will save the Government a lot of money. Magnetic Resonance Imaging equipment and Computerised Tomography equipment or commonly known as CT scan for the UTH and Ndola Central Hospital, respectively, will be purchased this year. We intend to train five nurses in nursing oncology.

With regard to child health, we are encouraged with the scaling-up and sustainability of our child health and new born strategies, Zambia is likely to achieve the measles free status. We intend to continue with the measures we implemented last year. To ensure a decline in child mortality rates, motivated by the need to achieve a two thirds reduction in the mortality by 2015, we intend to invest, this year, K4,276,662,453 billion in child health, representing a hundred per cent increase.

Mr Chairperson, this year, we have proposed an increase in funding to reproductive health from the K3.4 billion allocated last year, to K14.7 billion. We are hopeful that Parliament will support this. I can assure you that the political leadership required for the success in this area will be provided.

Sir, with regard to life style diseases, research and traditional medicines, we intend to commission and launch the roadmap on traditional medicines and its practice and the National Ethics Committee to provide leadership on research. We intend to ensure that research guidelines are also in place.

In the area of health system strengthening for 2008, I wish to state that medical practitioners in the health service delivery system are likened to pilots. As such, they should be multi-skilled in core competencies in health service delivery, including administration and management. This is exemplified by the strong medical leadership at the World Health Organisation (WHO) in Geneva, in the Afro Region (Brazzaville) and by the Resident Representatives that then feed into the ministries of health and in turn, hospitals.

Therefore, training in leadership and management at the Ministry of Health Headquarters, provincial health offices, hospitals and districts will be strengthened. This will enable medical practitioners take up leadership roles not only locally, but also internationally as well as institutions such as the United Nations (UN), World Bank and other political dispensations.

Mr Chairperson, my Ministry intends to strengthen capacity in procurement, financial management, logistics management and health management information systems. Districts that are not performing well will be provided with support.

Mr Chairperson, to address these issues, we will require significant amounts of resources. We acknowledge and appreciate that 11.4 per cent of the total discretionary budget that has been allocated to our Ministry will be effectively utilised. We shall continue to lobby for increased funding until we reach the 15 per cent Abuja target set by the Heads of State and Governments Summit. Donor harmonisation shall further be promoted.

Sir, through partnerships, we have continued to receive a significant amount of resources from our co-operating partners towards the scaling up of the implementation of our health priority programmes. This is due to the confidence that we have built in our co-operating partners through our robust financial management and administrative systems that have created transparency and accountability in this area.

Mr Chairperson, this has been demonstrated by the increased flow of resources into our basket funding. While acknowledging and appreciating the role played by global health funding initiatives in funding our health services, gaps still remain. We are grateful for the support that we continue to receive from our co-operating partners.

Sir, let me end by acknowledging that as a Ministry, we are supported in meeting our targets by various statutory boards under the Ministry of Health that include the National Food and Nutrition Commission, Zambia Flying Doctor Services, National AIDS Council, Medical Council of Zambia and General Nursing Council. As we review some of these boards with a view to enhancing their performance, the requisite support to these institutions will continue to be given.

Mr Chairperson, I wish to conclude by stating that investing in primary health care as a strategy to attain our health vision will continue to be emphasised. In addition, efforts will be made to ensure that investment in strengthened in capacitating some medical personnel in human resources, financial management and procurement.

Sir, I wish to acknowledge the support from this House and co-operating partners for the scholarships that are provided in public health and other courses, not forgetting that other competences in specialised fields of surgery, pediatrics, neurology and oncology need to be strengthened. This is the core business in medical care.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chituwo: Sir, lastly, I wish to emphasise the importance of the key determinants of health. These are the areas that have an effect on health care delivery, namely good nutrition, safe water and sanitation, better housing and improved literacy and incomes.

Mr Chairperson, these determinants of health need collaborative efforts to be addressed. Our ministries have a key role to play in ensuring that we improve the health status of our communities by improving on the key health determinants.

Sir, my Ministry will, through a multi-sectoral approach to service delivery in order to work very closely with other ministries, especially at the district level, ensure that, through concerted efforts, we all work towards improving the health status of our people. In a true spirit of partnership, I invite all Zambians, including Non-Governmental Organisations (NGOs), political parties, the Church, co-operating partners and other stakeholders to continue contributing to the search for appropriate solutions for the improvement of our health.

Sir, we all can play a role in improving the health status of the Zambian citizens. It should be noted that health is wealth. Unless we invest in health, economic empowerment might not be achieved at the pace we intend. I now ask this House to support the 2008 Budget for the Ministry of Health.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Muyanda (Sinazongwe): Mr Chairperson, thank you for giving me the opportunity to air my views on the way the Ministry of Health has excelled.

Sir, I have two brief significant points I would like to debate in support of this vote. The first one is that the Ministry of Health should control the officers who are managing public resources. Can we have an idea of the K400 million unaccounted for by the Ministry of Finance and National Planning through thefts? The Public Accounts Committee revelation was a total disaster. There was unprecedented arrogance by the financial controlling officers. I think this should come to an end. There is no way a civil servant can rise above a cabinet minister. Where does he derive this power from? He is an employee and is employed by the people of Zambia. That point has been registered.

Hon. PF Members: Family tree!

Mr Muyanda: No, I am not talking about family trees. I am talking about policy. Through policy, we govern the entire country and we want peace. Please, as parliamentarians, as we support this Budget and vote, to be under strict control, fire or punish those who steal public money. That is what this House is for. We should discipline these men and women. That is all we want.

Sir, I would like to extend my debate to another significant point. This is, again, on the use of public funds. I constructed a health care clinic worth K60 million using the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) in 2005. That money was well utilised. We have a health centre in Siampombo near Zimbabwe, but what support have we received from the Government to send a civil servant to man this clinic. To date, that clinic is lying idle, which is a very unfortunate situation.

Sir, we live along the bank of the Lake Kariba. The people of Sinazongwe have been displaced for the sake of the electricity which we are using in our mines. Today, the men and women are suffering from malaria year in and year out, and yet when we go to the clinics, there are no drugs. At what stage will control of public resources take place? When will the courage of stealing and pilfering from Government coffers come to an end?

Sir, I would like to move to another area, which is transport. How do you expect a civil servant; a clinical officer, to manage a clinic that is 150 km from the main controlling point? It is not possible. This person neither has a bicycle nor a motorcycle. It cannot work. Can we have a provision for transport? We can talk and talk, but for as long as we do not provide essential requisites to enable someone deliver services of medical care to the needy, even a tablet of panadol is impossible to find because of the lack of transport.

Mr Chairperson, it is also saddening to see that in this country the culture of discipline has totally disappeared from the brains of a civil servant. Why should a patient assault a nurse? We do not want to hear about such any more. I am quite confident that the Ministry of Health will make a policy decision so that we stop hearing about incidents of patients assaulting nurses or medical personnel per se. It is not good and it in nobody’s interest to beat a nurse who wants to treat you.

Mr Chairperson, nurses are being assaulted because of their indiscipline. When we train medical personnel, they should realise that discipline is part of treatment. A well disciplined nurse will approach his or her patient with due diligence and will treat the patient with extreme care. That is part of nursing care.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Sinyangwe (Matero): Mr Chairperson, I thank you very much for according me the opportunity to debate this very important Vote. While I support the Vote on the Ministry of Health, I have a few points that I would like to raise.

Mr Chairperson, health is very important in our nation. For any country to develop, you need people who are strong, can work and are healthy. Therefore, there is a need to provide quality health care. However, we can only provide quality care by giving our people trained nurses and doctors to look after them. I say so because when you go round the country, you will find a sad situation in rural areas where most of our clinics are manned by people who are not qualified.

I am aware that we have a shortage of medical personnel. However, we need to do something about it because as a country, we have become the exporters of nurses and doctors to neighbouring countries and overseas. We trained these people at a high cost. Why should they leave our people unattended to? Why should they go and nurse old people in developed countries when our children are dying? It is not right.

Mr Chairperson, talking about this issue, people go and work outside the country because they are not motivated. Secondly, we have not come out very clearly on our policies. When people go to work outside, what does this country benefit? In other countries, people who go to work outside are taxed so that some of the money they earn goes back to their country of origin. I think that this is an important issue that we need to look into. We train and not bond these people. They go scotch free and earn money that the country is not benefiting from, and yet a taxpayer is paying through the nose to train these doctors and nurses.

Mr Chairperson, I think it is important to talk about motivation because a frustrated nurse can never look after a patient properly.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Sinyangwe: When someone is frustrated, he or she will take out their frustration on the patients. The poor patients suffer a lot because of the frustrated nurses. Sometimes, in the hospitals, you will hear a doctor say that at a certain time, a patient must be given another dose of medicine. When you remind the nurses, they will tell you that they had forgotten. This is because they are frustrated. We cannot afford not to motivate people who are looking after our lives. We must do something about it.

Mr Chairperson, the patient-nurse ratio in this country is totally unacceptable. Last year, I debated that the Ministry of Health had employed mothers and grandmothers whom it does not pay. In the female ward, relatives are the ones that are nursing patients probably because there are only two nurses at night looking after thirty patients. What are we doing about it? Even after these people have nursed the patients the whole night, the treatment they get from the medical personnel is something we cannot even talk about. It is terrible.

First of all, these people come to the hospital with the sick. They are worried and sit in a chair the whole night, and in the morning, they are humiliated and kicked out and told, “fumeni, we want to sweep”. I think we must teach our medical personnel to respect people who help them nurse the sick in the hospitals.

Mr Chairperson, the Government is doing a commendable job by sending patients abroad for specialist treatment …

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mrs Sinyangwe: Let me speak. I am the one who is debating.

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Mrs Sinyangwe: While I appreciate that they are doing a good job, …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Sinyangwe: … we must give credit where it is due.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Sinyangwe: I have seen patients being taken care of abroad. I think that I should give credit to the Government for a job well done. However, they should do even better.

The money that we are spending abroad can be used to buy equipment and pay the specialists back home so that many people can benefit from their services.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Sinyangwe: I think that it is high time the CT scan that the hon. Minister talked about came into the country. I have seen how people go all over just to access the services of a CT scan. The Ministry of Health has one, but due to demand, it breaks down most of the time. Once it breaks down, sometimes it goes for four or five months without functioning. In the process, some patients get worse and others die. We cannot afford to lose lives just like that.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Sinyangwe: Mr Chairperson, I would like to talk about another worrying factor, which is medicine. Almost everyday, we hear that so much medicine has been procured, but what happens to that medicine, nobody knows. When you go to the hospitals, patients are always complaining that there are no drugs. May be we do not have a proper monitoring system. Every time people go to the hospitals, they are given prescriptions. Even a poor person who cannot afford to buy medicine is given a prescription. What happens when they get out of hospital? Should they just give up and wait for death just because they cannot afford medicines?

Mr Chairperson, another worrying factor are the many pharmacies that are coming up on hospital grounds.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Sinyangwe: Each time you are given a prescription, the nurses will direct you to a pharmacy. Even in cases where these pharmacies are not on hospital grounds, they are too near to the hospitals.

Mr Chairperson, when you come here to ask about medicines, you are told that medicines were bought. Please, let us go and monitor what is happening. We must also learn to listen from our patients so that we know what the problem is in our hospitals.

Mr Chairperson, the situation of distances to health care facilities, especially in the rural areas, is terrible. We are talking of clinics that do not even have ambulances. When someone is sick, they will wait for their death in bed because they cannot go the hospital. They do not even have a bicycle. We need to replicate these facilities so that they are within a walking distance of five kilometres, as the hon. Minister alluded to earlier.

 I know that it is a very big challenge, but if we tried to reduce the distances year by year, we shall get somewhere. Rome was not built in a day. We can move systemically. We can implement three programmes this year, five next year, and after ten years, we would have achieved something and moved further.

Moving on to my constituency Matero, the referral clinic was built when Matero had a small population, but now you find people from SOS, Chaisa, the whole Matero and Emmasdale going to seek medical services at Matero. The queues at Matero are intolerable. Again, you would find that the number of nurses is inadequate to deal with the large numbers of patients that go this hospital.

This is supposed to be a referral hospital, but it has only ten beds for children, ten for female patients and ten for male patients. For a constituency that has more than a million people, the bed space is not adequate. Therefore, I would like to plead with the hon. Minister to look into this problem. My people are too poor afford bus fares to the UTH. This is a nightmare.

Sir, one day, some people left a body at the gate of the hospital because there was no space in the mortuary. The mortuary can only accommodate four bodies. So, when the poor people are asked to transport a corpse to the UTH, what do they do? They just damp the body at the gate and run away.

 Sir, in a country like Zambia where people care about others, it is very shameful for people to start abandoning bodies of relatives because they cannot afford transport expenses. Therefore, we need to bring medical services closer to the people.  There is a clinic near Lilanda that was abandoned because of a lack of staff. I would appreciate it if, at least, they could send us nurses to attend to the sick.

At the maternity wing; the most important wing in any hospital because this is where life begins, there is no privacy for the poor women. The curtains are torn. Going to the hospital should not make people feel reduced. Let us make sure that our maternity wing is properly taken care of.  A place where mothers deliver from must be properly looked after. Women must deliver in clean surroundings. The beds must also be properly taken care of.

At Matero, they have improvised curtains, but we need to have proper facilities to offer quality health services to our people.

Lastly, I would like to talk about the attitude of both patients and nurses. I am very fair because I look at both sides of issues. Sometimes we condemn nurses, but, for example, there can be new blankets in a hospital, a month later, the blankets disappear from the hospital. When we go the hospital, we start complaining. What has gone wrong? What should we do about patients? Do we need an orientation to teach them how to look after these facilities? These facilities are for patients and that is very true.

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Mrs Sinyangwe: We too, must change our attitudes to balance the equation, if we have to develop. One and one make two, but if we take away one from one we remain with nothing. Therefore, we shall always remain at zero unless we do something change our attitudes.

Mr Chairperson, I do not believe in saying wrong things. I tell the people in Matero to change their attitudes and look after the property if we are to develop.

 I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate.

Sir, I would like to start by asking the Ministry of Health what criteria they use to choose the district they are gong build a hospital in.

Mr Chairperson, I am asking because Kazungula is more than ten years old now. From the time Kazungula was created, all hon. Members of Katombola have been asking for a district hospital. To date, there is no district hospital in Kazungula.

Mr Chairperson, I am sure you are aware that the district is growing rapidly because of its location, as there are a lot of people building along the Zambezi River and inland. Therefore, we needed a hospital ten years ago. If there is anything we should to get a hospital, please, tell us so that we can do it. The population of Kazungula is growing and we urgently need a hospital.

Mr Chairperson, since there is no hospital in Kazungula, the district health board is paying money to the Livingstone General Hospital and Zimba Mission Hospital because that is where patients are referred to. The money paid to the two hospitals can be used to improve our facilities if we had our own hospital. Please, hon. Minister of Health, you should tell us if there is anything that we should do to …


The Deputy Chairperson: Order! You are consulting loudly. Could we consult quietly.

Mrs Musokotwane: I thank you for your protection.

 Please, you should tell us if there is anything that we should do to qualify for a hospital too.

Mr Chairperson, the establishment in our rural health centres is too small. There are only three members of staff to man a health centre, comprising a clinical officer, a Zambia Enrolled Nurse (ZEN) and an environmental technician. That is not enough.

Sir, there is only one person to man the health post. Therefore, when there is a maternity case and a malaria case, that one person should attend to both at the same time. How possible is that? Can we, please, look at the establishment again, because we need to increase the staff in these health facilities? Otherwise, there will be no point in having these health facilities.

Mr Chairperson, I would also like to discuss the shortage of staff at the UTH Maternity Wing. I will confine myself to this wing because that is the place that deals with women only.

 Hon. Female Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, most of the midwives are trained in this country, but after training, they migrate to other countries. Why do they go to other countries? They go to other countries because once they get there, they are recognised and get salaries that are commensurate with midwives. A midwife has an extra qualification in comparison with an ordinary nurse. In Zambia, when a midwife qualifies, she still gets the salary of an ordinary nurse. Therefore, they decide to go where they are recognised and get salaries of midwives. Hon. Minister, let us make sure that we look into this issue and recognise our own staff so that they stay in the country.

Mr Chairperson, the other problem at the UTH is that of infrastructure. The roof to the Maternity Wing is leaking like nobody’s business.

 Hon. Female Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Musokotwane: When it is raining, you would find a bucket here and a bowl there. Sometimes, one begins to wonder when we are in Lusaka or Shang’ombo.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Musokotwane: This is the capital city and this is the biggest hospital in this country. Do you expect nurses to start running with buckets and bowls to trap water whenever it is raining? This is not right. Can we repair the Maternity Wing at the UTH and give dignity to women and nurses.

Mr Kambwili: Ekulanduko mayo ekulanda!

Mr Musokotwane: After all, we have already said they have extra qualifications. Therefore, their job is not to run around with buckets trying to trap water that is going to drop on the patients. We can do something about that.

Mr Chairperson, let me talk about the Labour Ward. A few years back, you could not hear the screams of the women when they were in labour …


Mrs Musokotwane: … because the Labour Ward windows were sealed and nicely air conditioned.

Hon. Female Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Musokotwane: The air condition stopped working before Jesus was born. The windows are now always open because the nurses and patients need fresh air.

Hon. Female Members: Yes.

Mrs Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, when you go to the Maternity Wing, cannot tell whether are in a mortuary or labour ward.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Musokotwane: Can we repair the air condition in the labour ward so that we seal the windows again. We should give dignity to our women.

Hon. Members were making noise.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! We are disturbing her. She wants to make a point on women screaming. Why are you disturbing?


The Deputy Chairperson: Can you continue, please.

Mrs Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, can we please repair the air condition in our labour wards so that - most of you have wives who deliver in that hospital. You have a lot of babies at your home, your wives delivered in that ward where they is no air conditioning. Can you, please, see to it that there are air conditions there so that we give dignity to our women.

Mr Chairperson, most of the tiles in the labour ward have come out. I am sure you are aware that there is some space between the floor and the tiles. You are also aware that in the Labour Ward there is a lot of blood spillage. When that blood spills on the floor, it goes into these spaces and it is difficult to clean the blood. As a result, the Labour Ward stinks all the time because of the rotten blood. Can you also look into this matter? Hon. Minister of Health, let us give dignity to our women and nurses.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Musokotwane: They do their best to clean, but sometimes, it is beyond their control. We are letting them down as a Government.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs J. C. Phiri: Ebunamayo ubo.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Musokotwane: Lastly, Mr Chairperson, can I request the Zambian public …

Hon. Opposition Member: To demonstrate.


Mrs Musokotwane: … to, please, bear with the nurses. I have already described the conditions they work in. We all know very well that the conditions in which they work are not conducive. Many hon. Members of Parliament have said that nurses are frustrated. It is true they are frustrated. They could have opted to leave the country, but they have not; they are still working for us. Can we bear with them? When they make a mistake, there is a channel of dealing with those mistakes. Beating them is not a solution to our problems.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Musokotwane: Let us find a way of dealing with rude and arrogant nurses, not physically handling them.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Msichili (Kabushi): Thank you, Mr Chairperson, for giving me this opportunity to debate this Vote.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to say that because of the high poverty and unemployment levels, poor health delivery and the bad state of roads, this Ministry cannot get more funding. So, we would like to ensure that some of these problems are addressed by other ministries.

Mr Chairperson, life is non-partisan. We must look at this issue as non-partisan. Health is life and life is health. Therefore, we are saying, we must sit as a House to allocate more funds to this Ministry. As I stand here to support this vote, I wish to particularly talk about the problems in my constituency. I wish to emphasise on the issues of doctors, drugs, nurses and transport.

Sir, I wish to say that the situation concerning these issues is worrying because the funds required every year are ever increasing, instead of us saving these funds so that they could be used by other ministries. For example, if the Ministries of Community Development and Social Services, Works and Supply and Local Government and Housing were adequately funded, some of these issues that are related to the Ministry of Health would have been addressed.  For instance, taking care of street kids by the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services, has only been done in Lusaka. What about other areas? Street kids abuse and infect each other with all sorts of diseases. At the end of the day, they still end up in hospitals, resulting in the hospital bills going up.

So we are urging the Government to ensure that some of these burdens are taken away from the Ministry of Health. We must fund the other ministries adequately. Last year, we allocated K19 billion for the purchase of ambulances. However, in my constituency, there are no roads where these ambulances can pass because all the roads are in a deplorable state. Therefore, if the Ministry of Works and Supply had worked on the roads, in this year’s Budget, we would have not allocated another K14 billion to, again, buy ambulances. This is so because of the bad state of roads which, once an ambulance is driven on them, will not last. We are urging the Government to look at the root cause of all this.

Sir, I would also like to talk about the Government’s policies. This Government has been making a lot of expensive experiments. For instance, it formed the Central Board of Health. Ten years down the line, the same Government decided to do away with it. Look at the amount of money which we have to pay as terminal benefits. This money would have gone towards constructing clinics and hospitals …

Dr Katema: Hear, hear!

Mr Mschili: … in my constituency. So we are saying that as we debate, we must look at such issues critically.

As I conclude, I wish to say that my constituency is the only one with a lot of diseases and poor water sanitation, and yet it is within.

Mr Mubika: What is he saying?

Mr Mschili: If we had good water sanitation and reduced diseases, we would have extended the health facilities to all the areas of my constituency. We have a clinic in my constituency should be turned into a twenty-four hour mini hospital. I am sad to report that there was a donor that wanted to help us do this but, unfortunately, because I am from the Opposition, the area council has refused to release one of its buildings which has not been used in the past twenty-five years. At the moment, this building is still vacant. We wanted to turn this into a maternity clinic. Like Hon. Musokotwane said, it is the women that are being affected. Therefore, despite the council having refused, I am making an earnest appeal …

Major Chibamba: To the hon. Minister.

Mr Mschili: … to the hon. Minister to release this building so that we turn it into a mini maternity wing.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mschili: Sir, when we come into power in 2011, our concentration will be on prevention rather than cure because this Government always wants to cure, which is very expensive.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mschili: Hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, Hon. Magande, told us that we should tighten our belts so that we could reach the Heavily-Indebted Poor Countries (HIPC) Completion Point, which we did. Many Zambians sacrificed for us to reach the HIPC Completion Point, but we are not seeing the benefits trickling down to us. We want to see this trickle down to our residences.

Finally, I would like to agree with what Hon. Dr. Scott said in this House when we were debating the Vote for the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development. We talked about US$450 as money that we were supposed to collect from the mines. If that money was divided among the 150 constituencies, each constituency would get US$3 million. With that kind of money, we would be able to do a lot of projects in our constituencies. We would have improved the health services, schools, road networks and many other projects. This is why we are urging the hon. Minister to take this advice seriously not just because it is coming from the Opposition. Therefore, this should be considered as a bad suggestion. As we wait for this money, let us see how best we can utilise it.

Sir, I thank you.

Mrs C. J. M. Phiri (Munali): I thank you, Sir, for giving me this opportunity to add my word to this debate.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank the hon. Member for Katombola for the positive contributions she has made towards the Ministry of Health. I am very proud of her and that is what is needed of her being a woman. Chairperson for the Parliamentary Caucus, I congratulate you mummy.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Musokotwane indicated assent.

Mrs C. J. M. Phiri: Mr Chairperson, I would first start by asking the hon. Minister of Health to enlighten me on the hierarchy in the Ministry of Health.  When you look through the Budget, one tends to get confused because the hierarchy starts from the hon. Minister, followed by the Permanent Secretary. The allocation for the hon. Minister is fine, but the allocation for the Permanent Secretary is more than that for the Deputy Minister. Therefore, I am getting rather confused. Is the allocation for the Permanent Secretary more because he is more important than the Deputy Minister? If so, why can the post of Deputy Minister in the Ministry of Health not be scrapped?

Mr Chairperson, I only have two issues to talk about. The Ministry of Health has very good programmes, especially concerning the mother-to-child-transmission of HIV/AIDS. However, I cannot see how this is going to be turned into reality. I am saying so because the programme started very well, but as we all know, the Ministry of Health has been badly hit by power outages and some people might wonder why I say this. The Ministry of Health, with our able Doctor Minister introduced a programme that stops the transmission of HIV/AIDS from mother-to-child. The drug used for this is nevirapine. This nevirapine is administered when a woman goes into deliver so that after delivering, the birth canal is cleaned. The health workers who administer nevirapine are worried because they cannot see properly.


Mrs C. J. M. Phiri: I have witnessed this happening at Kalingalinga Clinic in my constituency because of power outages.


Mrs C. J. M. Phiri:  I know what I am talking about.

Mr Chairperson, when I went to Kalingalinga Clinic, I found nurses using candles at the clinic for a woman to deliver. I am sure the hon. Minister of Health knows about this and sympathises with them since the doctor’s job is to save life. He has, however, come to this House and said he is thinking of buying power generators for all the clinics. If you look at this budget allocation of K1.5 trillion, how possible is that going to be? Women are the most affected by the HIV/AIDS pandemic.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs J. C. M. Phiri: The programme of Prevention of Mother to Child Transmission is really helping because children are born HIV negative even if the father is HIV positive. This way a woman can concentrate on looking after the HIV positive husband. What is going to happen now is that both the child and the husband will be positive.


The Deputy Chairperson: Order! There is disorder. Can we listen?

Mrs J. C. M Phiri: Mr Chairperson, women are the ones who are looking after people in the communities …

Mrs Limata: Hear, hear!

Mrs J. C. M. Phiri: …through the Home Based Care. Therefore, give them electricity so that this transmission from mother to child can be halted.

Secondly, Mr Chairperson, the Ministry has done very well with regard to malaria control. However, with the rains, have come ponds of water which are breeding grounds for mosquitoes and those of us with small children are failing to sleep. This is why we cannot lean against the chairs for fear of dozing off.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs J. C. M. Phiri:  As there are so many mosquitoes around, we have to wake up in the middle of the night to ensure the children are sleeping under the mosquito nets. You know how children sleep. I am reminding you in case your children are old.

Mr Chairperson, if more money was given to this Ministry so that it can restart the programme of spraying homes, this would be of great help.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs J. C. M. Phiri: Lastly, I get surprised when some hon. Members come to this House and accuse poor people in the communities of stealing blankets.

Mr Mwila: Hear, hear!

Mrs J. C. M. Phiri: What happens when somebody dies, is that the same linen on the beds is what they use to cover the bodies. Therefore, what this Government needs is to buy more linen and curtains in these hospitals.

With these few words, I thank you, Sir.

Mr Habeenzu (Chikankata): Thank you very much Mr Chairperson for giving me this opportunity to debate this Vote.


Mr Habeenzu: Mr Chairman, from the onset, I would like to state that …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! You may continue.

Mr Habeenzu: … I am very happy that you have given me this chance in my capacity as Chairperson for the Committee on Health, Community Development and Social Services.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Habeenzu: Mr Chairperson, this is a subject that I love so much. Some people say health is wealth. A healthy nation is a wealthy nation.

Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Mr Habeenzu: Mr Chairperson, the increase of 11.4 per cent in the allocation to the Ministry is welcome.

Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Mr Habeenzu:  I would like to urge the hon. Minister to put this money to good use. Misuse of public funds should be avoided at all costs.

Mr Chairperson, with regard to infrastructure, the hon. Minister has forgotten about Chikankata Constituency. There is a biomedical school that is being constructed in the area which needs part of the K14 billion that has been allocated for infrastructure development. There is also a health post at Nanduba whose walls have cracks and are almost falling because it has not been renovated from the time it was built. Hon. Minister, I would like to urge you to look into this issue.

The hon. Minister have also forgotten about the transport problem at Mazabuka District Hospital. What is happening now is that the same vehicle that is used to ferry patients from far-flung places in the district is also used by the District Health Management Board to execute their duties. This vehicle was donated by a well-wisher some years ago. Therefore, we are asking the hon. Minister of Health, since he stated in his policy statement that there are vehicles that have been bought, to give a vehicle to the District Health Management Board so that they can operate independently. The vehicle at the hospital must work for hospital issue while the vehicle at the District Management Board should be for executing management issues.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Habeenzu: Mr Chairperson, as Chairperson of the Committee on Health, Community Development and Social Services, I would like to delve on the HIV/AIDS issue.

Sir, almost all hon. Members of this House have been affected or infected in one way or another. We have lost our beloved ones, our children and our wives through the HIV/AIDS pandemic. Money has been allocated, workshops and meetings have been held pertaining to HIV/AIDS, but we still need to do more.

Mr Chairperson, Southern African countries are coming up with a document called the Module Law. The document is talking about the criminalisation of HIV/AIDS. In Zambia, there is a penal code which makes it an offence to expose somebody to a disease. However, we need, as legislators, to come up with a law to deal specifically with HIV/AIDS.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear

Mr Habeenzu: At the moment, there is a very big gap between the legislators and the community. Therefore, as legislators, we need to put in place a law …

Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Mr Habeenzu: … that will bridge the gap between the legislators and the community.

Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Mr Habeenzu: Mr Chairperson, as Members of Parliament, when we go into the communities, our people will understand us better if we are going to disseminate information on HIV/AIDS in a proper way.

Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Mr Habeenzu: Sir, if we become advocates of the fight against HIV/AIDS in our communities, we are going to disseminate this information in a proper way. If I stand in front of my people and speak to them, they will understand me better than anybody else. That is why, as hon. Members of Parliament, we need to legislate. We need to come up with a law because there are people out there who like…


Mr Habeenzu: … abusing other people intentionally. If we come up with this legislation, at least, it will deter people from engaging in activities that will make them infect others.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Habeenzu: Mr Chairperson, all hon. Members must support the law against HIV/AIDS when it is passed. 

Sir, I would like to urge all hon. Members of Parliament who reside at the National Assembly Motel to behave. What happens there is not good 


The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Although the Chair cannot exactly tell where the point the hon. Member is making is heading to, I feel I should intervene because we may be debating ourselves. Therefore, we have to protect ourselves.


Hon. Members: Talk about food.

Mr Habeenzu: Mr Chairperson, I was talking about issues on health. This is how people live and how they find themselves with extra wives.


The Deputy Chairperson: Order! You will understand that my fear actually has been justified. I do not think that we should go to that extent. I allowed you to continue hon. Member because I thought you would talk about health in respect of food and so on. Now, what you are saying is unacceptable. Can you bear that in mind as you continue.


Mr Habeenzu: Mr Chairperson, HIV/AIDS is real and we cannot run away from it. These are the issues that we should talk about so that as leaders and parliamentarians, we can send a good message to the people out there.


Mr Habeenzu: Sir, having two wives …


The Deputy Chairperson: Order! You must have another way of presenting your points. We have hon. Members of Parliament in this House who have two wives.


The Deputy Chairperson: Therefore, you should be diplomatic in your debate so that you do not affect them.

Continue, please.

Mr Habeenzu: Mr Chairperson, coming to the issue of circumcision, …


The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Habeenzu: in places were this is exercised, it has been found to be very effective.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Habeenzu: I am appealing to the hon. Minister of Health to look into this issue so that circumcision is encouraged even among leaders.


The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Let him finish his contribution.

Mr Habeenzu: Mr Chairperson, the law that I talked about should also include circumcision …

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Habeenzu: …for every male, including hon. Members and leaders. 
I thank you, Mr Chairperson.


 Mr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for according me this opportunity to debate the Ministry of Health budget.
Mr Chairperson, from the outset, I would like to state that the K1.5 trillion allocated to the Ministry of Health, in view of the problems that we have in the country, is not enough. The K1.5 trillion allocated to the Ministry in view of the disease burden is not enough. We have a lot of health centres in the rural areas. However, in some areas, the nearest health centre is about fifty kilometres away from the last residence. These are issues that we must deal with in the Ministry of Health.

Mr Chairperson, it is saddening to note that the issue of shortage of linen in our health centres can be attributed to theft by patients. This, indeed, is a very sad development. If the people in Matero steal linen, people in Roan Constituency do not. I would like to urge …

Mrs Sinyangwe: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mrs Sinyangwe: Mr Chairperson, I rise on a very important point of order and I need your serious ruling. Is it not the hon. Minister of Health, and not the speaker, who is supposed to respond to the points I raised? Is the speaker also in order to call the people of Matero thieves? When the hon. Member speaks, I never raise a word in response to what he says. Is he in order? I need your serious ruling.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson:  Order!

There are times when we say things not worthy to degrade any individual. I have been listening very carefully and the hon. Member for Roan said “if”. Now when one says “if”, it does not really mean that they steal.  However, I do remember that the hon. Member for Matero said individuals, in general terms, not necessarily the people of Matero. It was a general statement, and so really, there is no need for splitting hairs. Therefore, let us take it as it has been said.

You may continue, please.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, generally, if there are people who steal linen, there are no such people in Roan. I feel so bad that people can steal linen and their Member of Parliament comes to say that they steal.

Hon. Members: Aah!

The Chairperson: Order! Let us not be confrontational, but humane in our debates.

You may continue, please.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, this Government has not done well with regard to the issue of sending people for treatment outside the country.


Mr Kambwili: It is misleading to tell the nation that the Government has done well in the area of sending people for treatment outside the country. How many of the poor people access medical treatment?

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

(Debate adjourned)



[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)


The House adjourned at 1957 hours until 1430 hours on Wednesday, 5th March, 2008.