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Debates- Thursday, 6th March, 2008
DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE SECOND SESSION OF THE TENTH ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 6th March, 2008
The House met at 1430 hours
[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]
NATIONAL ANTHEM
PRAYER
__________
ANNOUNCEMENT BY MR SPEAKER
INTERNATIONAL WOMEN’S DAY
Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, as you may be aware, Zambia will join the rest of the world in commemorating International Women’s Day which falls on Saturday, 8th March, 2008.
In this regard, the National Assembly has prepared a number of activities to commemorate this important day.
One of these activities is a sensitisation meeting for Parliamentarians on issues related to this important day. The sensitisation meeting will be held on Friday, 7th March, 2008, at 1430 hours in the Auditorium here at Parliament Buildings.
Hon. Members are encouraged to attend this meeting.
Thank you.
QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER
MWENDA BASIC SCHOOL REHABILITATION
189. Mr D. Mwila (Chipili) asked the Minister of Education when the Government would rehabilitate Mwenda Basic School in Chipili Parliamentary Constituency.
The Deputy Minister of Education (Mr Sinyinda): Mr Speaker, Mwenda Basic School will be rehabilitated this year as per District Education Board Secretary Annual Work-plan. The district intends to rehabilitate four classrooms and six teachers’ houses at a cost of K210,000,000.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr D. Mwila: Mr Speaker, I am thankful for that answer by the hon. Minister. The ministry has sent teachers to Mwenda Basic School but we have a shortage of teachers’ houses. When is the Government going to construct these houses because there are four teachers that do not have houses?
The Minister of Education (Professor Lungwangwa): Mr Speaker, that is part of the annual work plan which is in our Infrastructure Development Programme.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Kasongo (Bangweulu): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister of Education whether the programme of rehabilitating basic schools has been extended to other schools in the country.
Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, rehabilitation of education infrastructure cuts across the different levels of the educational system - from basic education up to the university level.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Chongo (Mwense): Mr Speaker, arising from the hon. Minister’s answer, can he, this time around, assure this House and the nation that these classrooms are actually going to be reconstructed unlike what happened last year when the hon. Minister promised that the Government had budgeted for the construction of teachers’ houses at Mubende Basic School in Mwense and yet this is not on the plan for this year?
Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, like I said, the construction programme is a continuous one every year. If what the hon. Member is referring to was not done last year, it is because there were insufficient funds to do it, but this is a continuous programme.
I thank you, Sir.
TERMINAL BENEFITS
190. Mr Mwangala (Nalolo) asked the Minister of Finance and National Planning:
(a) how many retirees and deceased civil servants were still owed their terminal benefits by the Public Service Pension Fund in 2006 and 2007;
(b) when the retirees and deceased civil servants at (a) above would be paid their dues; and
(c) whether the Government had any plans to decentralise the pay points by establishing offices at provincial and district headquarters in order to minimise the suffering retirees undergo when accessing their benefits.
The Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Shakafuswa): Mr Speaker, in response to the question raised by Hon. Mwangala, I wish to inform the august House as follows:
Category No. of Cases Amount
(K’ Billion)
Statutory 234 19.4
Early Retirement 96 3.9
Deceased 1,367 5.7
Total 1,697 29.1
Mr Speaker, all outstanding cases in 2006 were paid during the course of 2007. As of 31st December, 2007, there were 2,919 cases awaiting payment and these are categorised as follows:
Category No. of Cases Amount
(K’ Billion)
Statutory 519 82.9
Early Retirement 152 30.8
Deceased 2,248 8.0
Total 2,919 121.7
Mr Speaker, the cases pending for 2007 will all be paid this year; and
Mr Speaker, the payment of pension benefits to retirees and pensioners has been decentralised vial local commercial banks and post offices. The Public Service Pension Fund (PSPF) entered into a Memorandum of Understanding with some banks and post offices to facilitate the payment of benefits to retirees and pensioners as a pay point of their choice. This has tremendously reduced the inconvenience that the clients used to go through previously. Further, the PSPF is also in partnership with the Association of Pensioners, Civil Servant Union Workers of Zambia (CSUWZ) and Zambia National Union of Teachers to handle inquiries and collect documents on behalf of clients. The payment of foreign pensioners in Malawi, Zimbabwe, South Africa and the United Kingdom has also been decentralised through their local banks.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Mwangala: Mr Speaker, may I find out from the hon. Minister …
Mr D. Mwila: On a point of order, Sir.
Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.
Mr D. Mwila: Mr Speaker, I thank you for allowing me to raise a point of order. Is the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security in order to keep quiet without informing this House and the nation on what is happening in Chambishi where 500 employees have been summarily dismissed.
Mr Speaker, I am referring to today’s Times of Zambia on the front page and it reads as follows:
“All the 500 striking workers at Chambeshi Copper Smelter were yesterday fired while seven National Union of Miners and Allied Workers branch officials were arrested and detained”.
I go further Sir:
“The workers were served with letters of summary dismissals by management in the morning.”
Mr Speaker, I also want to refer to today’s Zambia Daily Mail on the front page and it reads as follows:
“About 500 workers at Chambishi Copper Smelter have been issued with summary dismissal letters following the two-day riotous behaviour in protest against alleged poor conditions of service”
It went further Sir:
“The company Secretary, Mr Sun Chuanqi reviewed that company property worth about US$200,000 was allegedly destroyed by the workers during the riot.”
Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister in order to keep quiet without informing us how the 500 workers who have lost employment have been dismissed, not only that US$200,000 worth of property have been destroyed. I need your serious ruling and allow me Sir, to lay these papers on the Table.
Mr D. Mwila laid the papers on the Table.
Hon. PF. PF Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Speaker: The hon. Member for Chipili, in that point of order, is attempting to draw the House back to areas that the House has outgrown.
Was it earlier this year or late last year that I ordered that the ruling that was made in this House as to what constitutes a point of order should be circulated? I have been informed that that ruling was circulated. If the hon. Member for Chipili cares to consult that ruling which is based on both local and international practice, he will find that the point of order he has raised does not, in accordance with the practice, constitute that which is called a point of order so far as this House is concerned.
Yes, the issue is important, but it does not constitute a properly defined point of order. What I can say is that this House has passed suitable legislations to deal with matters by other authorities related to the issue upon which the hon. Member for Chipili is raising the point of order. So, the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security is quiet because he knows that he cannot make a statement on a matter like this. There are other authorities who are dealing with this matter adequately.
The hon. Member for Nalolo may continue.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mwangala: Mr Speaker, from the well elaborated answer from the hon. Minister, may I find out the difference between his Government and the UNIP Government. In the UNIP Government, retirees used to enjoy the same benefits on the salary increments which is not the case today. Can I find out from the hon. Minister as to why retirees are not accommodated annually in Civil Service salary increments?
The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Magande): Mr Speaker, I wish to thank the hon. Member for that question and he has indicated that he is a retiree. I want to assure him that I am also a retiree and I worked in both UNIP and the other governments. I cannot remember a situation when I was Director of Budget, in 1981 to1982, when retirees were paid the same salaries as serving civil servants. I do not know which conditions he is saying a retiree was enjoying the same conditions with the civil servants, in which case, there would be no need to be called a retiree. So, I am not quite sure of the essence of that question.
I thank you, Sir.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Muyanda (Sinazongwe): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out whether the Government has any plans to index the wages and salaries of retirees so that the monetary value which these former employees had can be retained and not be eroded in the current rate of inflation.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Magande: Mr Speaker, I want to report to this House that we are looking at ways of improving the payments to our retirees. One of those might be to index the payments to retirees to current salaries. It is not that they will get the same salaries, but that, perhaps, when we have Civil Service salary increments, the retirees will also be looked at. That is an issue which is being considered by the Government.
I thank you, Sir.
LEGALISATION OF SQUATTER COMPOUNDS
191. Mrs Kapata (Mandevu) asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing when squatter compounds throughout the country would be legalised and upgraded.
The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Dr Kazonga): Mr Speaker, regarding this question, my ministry’s response is that the Government has no fixed date for squatter compound legalisation and upgrading. This is because the exercise of legalising and upgrading is an on-going one and cannot wholesomely be done as councils have different scenarios. In this regard, all councils have been instructed to submit names of squatter compounds to be legalised or upgraded based on the following aspects:
(i) population;
(ii) social-economic services available;
(iii) location;
(iv) type of structures;
(v) status of the squatted land;
(vi) length of time it has been in existence; and
(vii) type of land on which it is situated.
Mr Speaker, the above information is required by the Government to make informed decisions on which squatter compound or compounds should be legalised and upgraded. It is a well-known fact that some squatter compounds are situated in disputed areas and, therefore, the Government cannot upgrade such areas without taking into account the legality of the area.
Mr Speaker, it is, therefore, important to educate our people not to build structures in areas that have not been approved by planning authorities. In this way, we will be helping the Government to reduce the mushrooming of squatter compounds in the country.
I thank you, Sir.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mrs Kapata: Mr Speaker, looking at Lusaka, all entries into town from the North, South, East and West, are shanty compounds. When is the ministry going to re-plan these settlements at the main entries of Lusaka?
Dr Kazonga: Mr Speaker, the Government is committed to ensuring that some of these unplanned settlements are upgraded. The situation of Lusaka is a sad one. What this Government is doing is to try and reduce some of the negatives that were developed and came about in the olden days. For instance, when you talk about squatter upgrading, the Government has put up a programme of upgrading some of these unplanned settlements.
Mr Speaker, let me take advantage of this supplementary question to also enlighten the House on a number of issues that this Government is doing in terms of reducing the number of these unplanned settlements and also the issue that was partly covered yesterday concerning planning.
Mr Speaker, first of all, if I look at legislation, there are two pieces of legislation that are used in the issues of squatter upgrading. The first one is under the Country and Town Planning Act. We also have another one which is the Structural Improvement Act.
Mr Speaker, after a careful analysis of these two pieces of legislation, we were able to identify that the two are actually at variance. This Government, as a result of seeing that variance, is now harmonising the two pieces of legislation. This year, we have really moved forward and within the next two weeks, we shall be having a stakeholder workshop to finalise the document so that the legal framework within which our Town and Country Planning is operating can also be updated with that harmonisation.
Mr Speaker, that is not all. There is also the issue of integrated plans. There was so much talked about in terms of Planning. This Government is encouraging our local authorities to ensure that we have Integrated Development Plans which will be an input into what we call spatial plans or structure plans.
Mr Speaker, it is, indeed, correct that planning is the first step towards solving a problem and the Government is aware of that. In this case, the ministry, at the end of last year, was able to release amounts of money to assist our local authorities in order to develop the Integrated Development Plans. As an illustration, the ministry gave K150 million to each of the following councils: Kazungula, Siavonga, Nakonde, Sesheke and Mpulungu. The others were Chadiza, Luangwa, Shang’ombo, Chavuma, Kapiri Mposhi, Mambwe, Mazabuka, Samfya, Lufwanyama and Chongwe.
Mr Speaker, a further K200 million was released for Chirundu for the initial stage of the preparation of these plans. However, let us control before things reach a stage where they are uncontrollable. We need to monitor what is happening and that is the tool we are using to ensure that we do not have any more of these unplanned settlements.
Mr Speaker, additionally, we have, in the last one year, released K100 million to each of the following councils for the upgrading of these unplanned settlements: Livingstone City Council, Kabwe Municipal Council, Ndola City Council, Kitwe City Council, Mansa Municipal Council, Kasama Municipal Council, Chipata Municipal Council, Solwezi Municipal Council and Mongu Municipal Council.
Hon. MMD Member: Ebaume aba.
Dr Kazonga: As an addition, we were also able to release to Lusaka City Council to undertake a situational analysis of one of the compounds which is known as Kalikiliki.
Mr Speaker, I deliberately wanted to go into these details to show how committed this Government is to ensuring that we reduce the number of unplanned settlements.
Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Sichilima: Ema Minister aya.
Dr Kazonga: This Government has made it very clear that there will be no more unplanned settlements. We have made this one very clear to our councils. There will be no more unplanned settlements because we are fighting to solve the problems that we created in the past.
Mr Speaker, all this shows how committed this Government is. We are there to make sure that we make a difference.
I thank you, Mr Speaker.
Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has indicated how clear this Government has been in circumventing, prohibiting and educating people not to go into illegal settlements. I would like to find out from him whether there is a clear cut punitive measure that has been given to those who issue plots illegally, such as MMD and PF Councillors.
Laughter
Dr Kazonga: Mr Speaker, that is a very good question. I wish to state that this Government has made it clear. No individual can issue land. These plots that some of those law breakers - I call them law breakers because there is no question of MMD or PF cadres. They are simply law breakers!
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Dr Kazonga: The law will take care of any law breaker.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Dr Kazonga: I wish to emphasise that anybody who is going to allocate land or plots illegally will be reported to the police.
I thank you, Sir.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Interruptions
Mr I. Banda (Lumenzi): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether there is a deliberate policy to reduce service charges by the councils on plots in order to reduce problems of squatter compounds in the country.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Kanyanyamina: Bushe ku Lumenzi kwaliba ba squatter?
Laughter
Dr Kazonga: Mr Speaker, as part of preventing unplanned settlements, we have deliberately looked at opening up land that is serviced. As the hon. Minister of Lands, in his policy statement to his budget, stated, there is a fund known as the Land Development Fund which our local authorities have access to. The purpose of that fund is to ensure that these areas are surveyed and properly demarcated.
Sir, the ministry has gone further. Last year, the ministry released about K5 billion to the National Housing Authority (NHA) to ensure that those councils which had site plans were assisted in further opening up of these pieces of land. Opening up implied that we needed the road infrastructure with appropriate drainage systems. It also meant opening up in terms of water supply and sanitation facilities.
Therefore, in terms of reducing the amount of negative effects that we have already seen, we do not want to go into the past. That is why we are making all these efforts to ensure that once a place is ready for construction or development, these basic facilities will be in place. This Government is committed to ensuring that we do not repeat the wrongs that were committed in the past.
I thank you, Sir.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Sichilima: Fyafula ikaleni panshi!
Mr Speaker: Order!
Mr Chimbaka (Bahati): Mr Speaker, could Hon. Dr Kazonga wa Kazonga …
Laughter
Mr Speaker: Order, what is that?
Laughter
Mr Chimbaka: Mr Speaker, I said could Hon. Dr Kazonga, Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing …
Laughter
Mr Chimbaka: … inform this House whether apart from upgrading these illegal squatter compounds, the Government has intentions of relocating people who are affected by the floods. These compounds are water logged because of being built on rocks which makes it very difficult for councils to provide sewage lines, drainages systems and everything that is required for effective and healthy living in the compounds.
Dr Kazonga: Mr Speaker, indeed, some of these unplanned settlements are located in inappropriate areas. As a Government, if we had all the necessary resources, the ideal solution would be relocating the people completely. In the meantime, as we are considering different options, it is important to improve on the accessibility through road infrastructure and supplying of clean drinking water to our communities. It is a concern to this Government because the long lasting solution to these unplanned settlements is to ensure that people are relocated. We shall ensure that, where possible, we relocate people and where not, we will see how we can balance the two issues.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Speaker: Order! Let me guide you. So far, I am aware that the law has not changed to the effect that all of you, 150 elected hon. Members of Parliament are, also, by law members of your respective councils.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Speaker: But I do hear the patent by some of you to pass the buck and blame all these things on the Ministry of Local Government and Housing when the 150 of you should be doing the work that you are asking the ministry to do for you. The ministry is, indeed, is in charge of policy, but you are in charge of implementing.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Speaker: You have to do it.
Mr Lubinda Stood up.
Mr Speaker: The hon. Member would like to ask a question despite my guidance.
Laughter
Mr Speaker: Do you still want to say something? Please, take your seat.
Laughter
Mr Speaker: Go and raise these matters in the Lusaka City Council.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Speaker: That is where the solutions lie. There is no exception to this guidance I am giving you. At least, twenty of you want to raise matters on this question. It will not take you anywhere because the answers lie in what you, hon. Members of Parliament, together with the rest of your fellow councillors out there, are required to do. Now, if the hon. Member for Kabwata thinks there is something different from what I am saying, let us hear from him.
Mr Lubinda (Lusaka Central): Mr Speaker, following your guidance and attempts by the hon. Minister to show the Government’s commitment to upgrading squatter compounds, I would like to raise a question on behalf of councillors in Lusaka. In 2006, this Parliament appropriated K12 billion towards upgrading squatter compounds in Lusaka. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister why that money was not released to Lusaka City Council to assist us, councillors of Lusaka, to upgrade the shanty compounds.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Lubinda: When will his ministry, which is responsible for housing, going to allocate resources to all councillors gathered here to facilitate their work in their respective councils?
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Sichilima: Question!
Mr Speaker: I shall allow the hon. Minister to answer, but bear in mind that all of you will follow the correct guidance I have given you.
Mr Kazonga: Mr Speaker, unfortunately, I cannot go backwards as far as 2006 but I confirm that for 2007, the resources were released - as I indicated in my response - to respective councils, for squatter upgrading. We gave local authorities this money with clear instructions on what they needed to do with it. That we did as from last year. As for 2006, unfortunately, I would not be able to respond to that.
I thank you, Sir.
Interruptions
Mr Speaker: I have guided you to go back to your respective councils and upgrade those squatters.
Laughter
______{mospagebreak}
COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY
[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON in the Chair]
VOTE 68 – (Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources – K123,227,689,352).
(Consideration resumed)
The Deputy Chairperson: Before I allow the hon. Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources, I have to ask the hon. Minister of Science, Technology and Vocational Training, in according with the directive I issued yesterday, to talk to the Committee.
The Minister of Science, Technology and Vocational Training (Mr Daka): Mr Chairperson, thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak to the Committee. First and foremost, I would like to offer my sincere apologies to the Committee. I would like to mention here that from last week, I was on a malaria treatment.
Interruptions
Mr Daka: Sir, when I woke up on Monday, I had already obtained a sick leave for three days from 3rd March, 2008 to 6th March, 2008. Due to my treatment on Tuesday, I thought I was going to make it but could not.
Mr Muntanga: On a point of order, Sir.
Mr Daka: Sir, therefore, I sincerely apologise for the inconvenience I caused to this House. I went out to have some fresh air and I underestimated the time that the hon. Minister of Health was going to finish his contribution. I, therefore, once again, sincerely apologise to the House and I lay my sick note on the Table.
Mr Daka laid paper on the Table.
Interruptions
The Deputy Chairperson: Order! As the hon. Minister was apologising, there was a point of order raised but I deliberately ignored it because I wanted the hon. Minister to finish with his apology. Under rare circumstances, I allow that point of order.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.
Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, was the hon. Minister in order to be allowed to discuss the issue that was appearing on the Order Paper. On a point of procedure, on the Order Paper, we had Ministry of Health, Ministry of Science, Technology and Vocational Training and Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources. At that time, you called for the hon. Minister of Science, Technology and Vocational Training to present the Policy Statement. The hon. Minister who was in the restaurant failed to present his Policy Statement. Was he in order to…
The Deputy Chairperson: Order! A ruling was made yesterday and that is why I asked the hon. Minister to apologise. We are not discussing his ministry. It was in response to the directive that I issued yesterday that he should apologise to the Committee. That is why I allowed him to do that. Therefore, it is acceptable. Can the hon. Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources continue.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
The Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources (Mr Kaingu): Mr Chairperson, I would want to repeat and emphasise the point that in keeping with the Government’s overall development agenda of wealth creation and poverty reduction, my ministry has ensured that allocations of resources in this year’s Budget shows the importance placed on programmes with the greatest impact on national economy and contribution towards the improvement of livelihoods of the Zambian people.
Interruptions
The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hon. Members, we are not listening. That is the problem. The Chair has to guide this House. After the hon. Minister has made his Policy Statement, some of you will begin getting us backwards because you are not listening. Let us give him attention. The hon. Minister may continue.
Mr Kaingu: Mr Chairperson, this year, my ministry aims to focus on tree planting through establishment of plantations in the most degraded parts of the country. To this effect, K4,690,000,000 has been allocated towards this activity. In turn, the theme for this year’s Budget is, “Tree planting and woodlot management to address the Impact of Climate Change.”
Interruptions
The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Can we please consult quietly.
Mr Kaingu: Mr Chairperson, allow me to present my Policy Statement sector by sector, beginning with tourism.
Tourism Sector
Sir, the tourism sector has been undergoing legislative reforms which seek to provide an enabling environment for a private sector driven economy. At this juncture, I wish to thank the hon. Members of the House for the support rendered towards the passing of the Tourism and Hospitality and Zambia Tourist Board Acts during the November, 2007 sitting. The new Acts mark a milestone in the management of the sector in the sense that they will result in the streamlining and harmonisation of the Tourism Development and Marketing functions for efficient and effective service delivery and thereby reducing the cost of doing business in the sector.
Sir, I am pleased to inform the House that I have since signed the commencement orders for the two Acts and they are now operational. Allow me to provide information on the performance of the sector in 2007. The sector continued to show positive contribution to Gross Domestic Products (GDP) at 2.6 per cent for 2006 and 2007. Tourist arrivals grew from 690,000 in 2006 to 723,000 in 2007 while receipts grew from US$177 million to US$188 million and the employment creation in the sector increased from 21,204 in 2006 to 22,756 in 2007.
Interruptions
The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Can the people on my left, please, consult quietly. Continue.
Mr Kaingu: Sir, the outlook for 2008 remains positive with increased pledged investments in the sector.
Mr Chairperson, the tourism sector is highly competitive and in order to maintain our competitiveness with countries in the region that offer the same product, my ministry has to constantly innovate through diversifying and broadening the tourism product. In this regard, my ministry last year completed the development of Zambezi River source and the construction of Mukuni Park in Livingstone. In addition, Jeki Airstrip in Lower Zambezi National Park was upgraded from gravel to bitumous.
Further, my ministry advanced the rehabilitation of the Moto Moto Museum in addition to commencing works on the development of Chishimba Falls. Some tourist access roads in national parks and Livingstone were rehabilitated. In line with the development focus of the Northern Circuit, the ministry facilitated the rehabilitation of tourist access roads in Luapula Province.
Mr Chairperson, as regards to empowerment of Zambians to participate in the tourism sector, the Tourism Development Credit Facility has so far disbursed to 126 successful applicants bringing the total funds released to the programme to K19,086,000,000 since 2003. As the House may be aware, the Government has harmonised all empowerment sector programmes under the Citizens Economic Empowerment Commission, including the Tourism Development Credit Facility.
Mr Chairperson, as many hon. Members may recall, the Tourism and Hospitality Act provides for privileges and benefits, especially for medium, small and micro enterprises, in which most Zambian businesses fall. Accordingly, it is the intention of my ministry to broaden the participation of Zambians in the above categories through, among others, obtaining operating licences at minimal or no cost all, provided that they meet all the standard requirements.
Mr Chairperson, this year will see the commencement of the drawing up of Integrated Development Plans for Livingstone and Kasaba Bay areas in order to guide tourism development. This will be done in an effort to ensure that Zambia positions herself to take advantage of the 2010 Soccer World Cup to be held in South Africa and the 2011 All Africa Games to be hosted by Zambia.
Mr Chairperson, with regard to tourism promotion and marketing, the Zambia Tourism Board, created after the enactment of the Zambia Tourism Board Act of 2007, will now be purely a marketing agency focusing on both domestic and international tourism. The Board is now in place and the organisation is being restructured to tailor it to its new role.
Mr Chairperson, allow me now to move to interventions lined up in the forestry sub-sector. Forests are one of Zambia’s most important natural resources that contribute to socio-economic development of the country. One of the greatest challenges of the sector includes the high rate of deforestation. Other challenges being encountered in the development of the forestry sector include, among others, inadequate institutional capacity to effectively implement forest programmes.
At this juncture, I wish to highlight the sector’s performance in the past year. Notwithstanding the challenges faced by the sector, forestry contribution to Gross Domestic Product (GDP) has grown from a paltry 1 per cent to 3.7 per cent from the 1980s to 2006. It is projected to grow to 5.8 per cent by 2010 through increased export and domestic earnings from forest products. This projection is based on expected private sector investments and increased production of value added wood and non-wood products from forest based industries and wood fuel energy supplies.
Mr Chairperson, the vision and major thrust of this year’s programmes is to foster sustainable forest management and protection through improved management systems. My ministry will, therefore, focus on establishing forestry plantations especially in the most degraded parts of the country. The plantations programme is anticipated to be up-scaled so that it contributes to addressing the high deforestation rate. In the long run, industrial plantations will begin to contribute to the country’s GDP.
Mr Chairperson, at this juncture, let me drink some water.
Hon. Members: Aah!
Mr Kaingu drank some water.
Mr Muntanga: Drink some more water.
Mr Kaingu: Shut up.
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
Mr Kaingu: Mr Chairperson, I apologise.
The Deputy Chairperson: Order! What are you apologising for when you did not hear what the Chair said?
Laughter
The Deputy Chairperson: Now I can ask the hon. Minister to withdraw that ‘shut up’ remark.
Mr Kaingu: Mr Chairperson, I withdraw the ‘shut up’ remark.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Kaingu: I am saying sorry to Hon. Muntanga.
Mr Chairperson, my ministry is aware that employment and wealth creation is very cardinal to efforts aimed at poverty alleviation and improvement of our people’s livelihood. The forestry sector has provided formal and informal employment to over 60 per cent of forestry dependent communities, private sector and individuals, thereby, contributing to wealth creation and poverty reduction.
Mr Chairperson, as a way of promoting community participation in the management of forest resources, my ministry has engaged the Zambian citizens at village level in Joint Forest Management (JFM) to build schools, clinics and provide financial support to bee-keeping groups through the Forest Resources Management Programme (FRMP), with a view to creating partnerships for sustainable forest resources management utilisation, while at the same time economically empowering households that use forest resources.
Mr Chairperson, my ministry has embarked on data collection from the rest of the country which should define factors that are leading to high deforestation. The data will also be used to devise appropriate interventions. Through the Integrated Land Use Assessment Project, the ministry has established a data base at the Forestry Department and a forest mapping system that can be used to track changes in the land use of the nation.
Mr Chairperson, one challenge cited earlier is that of inadequate institutional arrangement to effectively manage the country’s forestry estate. The House may recall that last year, it was informed that the Government’s intention to establish a Forestry Commission to operationalise the Forests Act of 1999 was still under consideration. Hon. Members may be aware that this matter was unduly delayed mainly as a result of Budget constraints from the Treasury to establish the new entity.
The lack of funds to establish the Commission has led to a shift in the policy direction regarding which way the Forest Commission should go. After consultations with the stakeholders on the issue, they recommended that the Forest Act of 1973 should be revised to incorporate the progressive provisions of the 1999 Act.
By so doing, the 1973 Forests Act would incorporate current trends in forestry management principles at global, regional and national levels. The stakeholders further recommended that the Forest Department structure should be revised to strengthen the commercial aspects, on which Government will make its position known after a firm decision is reached.
Mr Chairperson, the ministry is capable of raising revenue from the sale of forest and non wood forest products that can contribute nearly 10 per cent to Gross Domestic Product (GDP) of the nation. For the current financial year, the ministry is expected to raise about K6.4 billion going by the previous records of exceeding set targets.
Environment Sub Sector
The prosperity of any nation depends on how well it manages bio-diversity as that is the basis for sustainable development. My ministry is aware of this fact and has taken several policy measures to ensure that our environment is well managed. I am pleased to inform the House that Cabinet in November 2007 approved the National Policy Environment (NPE). With the policy in place, my ministry will ensure that the sectoral guidelines provided are adhered to by the various sectors in their pursuit of development so that the environment is utilised in a sustainable manner.
One of the ministry’s mandates is to control pollution of the environment from industrial and mining activities. With the expanding mining operations countrywide, the country is increasingly witnessing the pollution of surface water from mining effluents. My ministry through the Environmental Council of Zambia will strictly enforce the Environmental Management Plans for compliance in order to safeguard human health. Non-compliance will attract stiffer penalties as prescribed in the law, including suspension of licences.
This year the major thrust of the environment sub-sector will be to reduce our vulnerability to adverse effects of climate change. This will be done through the development of a climate change response strategy for Zambia. The strategy will galvanise the isolated country efforts on climate change that will, among other things, include the operationalisation of the National Adaptation Plan of Action (NAPA). The flooding experienced this year by several countries in the sub region including Zambia, is clear evidence of the effects of climate change. This is an issue we cannot afford to ignore as it has the potential to reverse all our efforts aimed at poverty reduction.
Mr Chairperson, I am pleased to inform the House that my ministry has mobilised additional financial resources amounting to K2 billion this year for the removal of Mimosa pigra, a noxious weed that has affected most water bodies. The Environmental Council of Zambia under whose responsibility this matter falls will receive an additional K2 billion over and above their usual subvention.
Sir, in this regard, my ministry intends to intensify awareness campaigns among the people on climate change especially the most vulnerable communities on local adaptation techniques. This year, my ministry, with the support of co-operating partners, will initiate the process of sensitising the private sector and financial institutions on how they can participate in the growing carbon market. Relevant Government institutions will also be engaged as they have a role to play in ensuring that the investment climate is favourable for such as market to thrive.
Mr Chairperson, as environment is a cross cutting issue, my ministry, with the support of the co-operating partners, will this year commence the implementation of a programme aimed at mainstreaming environment and natural resources in various sectors of the economy.
An investment grant facility will be put in place to support the implementation of interventions aimed at addressing pressing environmental challenges. Lessons learned indicate that the management of natural resources by the Government alone with the exclusion of other stakeholders such as local communities, civil society and the private sector results in failure.
In view of this fact, the grant facility will be accessible to public and private institutions including Non-Governmental Organisations (NGOs) and civil society organisations. My Ministry is in the process of finalising the guidelines on how the facility will operate.
Mr Chairperson, I remain positive that the foregoing background information has provided the necessary foundation to better appreciate the diversity of the mandate of the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources as we debate the budgetary Estimates for Head 68.
Sir, in conclusion, I would like to thank all the hon. Members of Parliament for giving me the support.
I thank you, Sir.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Simama (Kalulushi): Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate on the Vote of the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources.
Sir, the need to conserve bio-diversity is important because the economic livelihood of most rural and urban people depends on natural resources. And so, we need to create a system that will ensure sustainable conservation and protection of the natural ecosystem.
Mr Chairperson, on the Forests Act of 1973, I wish to propose amendments to this Act to incorporate joint forest management and forest policies so that the process will be faster and cheaper.
Sir, the Forest Act 1973 was received with mixed feelings as it was intended to see officers off employment and then re-apply. This gave officers fear to support the implementation of the new Act. The question of money was not the main cause of failure to implement the new Act.
On deforestation, I wish to state that in the olden days, the Forestry Department used to give money to forestry extension officers to educate people in villages on early burning. However, this practice is not there anymore.
Mr Chairperson, agriculture is a sector that has taken up most forests. 25 per cent of land for the Forest Department has been allocated to the agricultural sector. I am not against agriculture but all I am saying is that each time forests are gazetted for agriculture, forestry areas must also be considered.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Simama: On settlements, I wish to state that, as much as we appreciate the opening up of new settlements like Lumwana and Albidon areas by mining companies, we should also preserve other areas for forestry because trees protect land from soil erosion. As you have observed, this has resulted in the floods we are facing today. This is because the river banks have no trees, hence soil erosion. As a result of soil erosion, rivers become shallow and buried and, therefore, cannot hold much water hence creating floods. For this reason, we need to replant trees along the river banks. It is very important.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Simama: Mr Chairperson, trees are very important and we need to protect them because they provide a habitat for animals. We need animals very much for tourism …
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Simama: … and they also play a very big role in seed dispersal through their hairs. Forestry is very important because it provides ash fertiliser through shifting cultivation and timber. Wild plants and animals are very important for food, tourism and medicine. The Zambia Wildlife Authority (ZAWA) and Forestry Department need to have a data centre on animals and trees to enable them know endanger species for them to plan how to protect these things. Green house emissions and global warming, trees play important role through sequestration. This is a process of trees absorbing carbon from the atmosphere leaving concentration of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere low. So, you can see why this ministry needs a lot of money. This is because it plays a big role in fighting global warming.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Simama: Mr Chairperson, let me talk about carbon trading. This is a system which is agreed on international levels where companies which produce more emissions into the air buy projects in countries to grow trees so that some of the emissions they produce are absorbed by these trees through the project. Therefore, I am asking the hon. Minister to implement this. It is very painful if Vedanta Konkola Copper Mines (KCM) in their home country, India, comply with carbon trading and yet, in Zambia they do not.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Simama: This is one of the problems we have in Zambia - delaying implementation of things. I have sung about this many times. If this is applied in Zambia, it could mean our Forestry Department getting more money for its operations from companies like Lumwana, KCM, Nitrogen Chemicals, Mopani and many other companies. This can make the Forestry Department self sustaining. However, this does not mean that we only target companies operating within Zambia. This system allows even other countries like Australia, Japan and other European Union countries and members to buy projects from other countries. Once they get a certificate from those countries they operate from, it allows them to emit a certain amount of emissions according to the bought projects. This will allow Zambia to enjoy credit facilities as it will be seen to be actively participating in the mitigation of global warming.
Mr Chairperson, in Brazil they practise the same although they call it carbon tax. This is applied to companies producing emissions to help them grow trees. In Zimbabwe, the carbon tax is applied even to vehicles. We need to move in the same direction fast.
Mr Chairperson, with regard to floods, the ministry needs more money to maintain wetlands which help to keep water to avoid floods. Also, wetlands are habitats for animals which attract tourists and this land is good for farming.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Simama: Mr Chairperson, wetlands need maintenance. I do not know how many wetlands this country is currently maintaining because this is a responsibility of the Forestry Department.
Mr Chairperson, plantations around the Copperbelt were meant for the mines and construction at the time when mines were small and the population was 3.5 million. Now, the population has increased and is above 11 million. We need to replant trees and open up other compartments for rural areas.
Mr Chairperson, Copperbelt Forest Company and Apila Company are showing interest to start replanting trees. What are the procedures for these companies to get help from the Government for support and encouragement? Currently, 4,000 cubic metres of trees are harvested every year and burnt trees are not included. This represents 1,600 hectares. As at now, we have 30,000 hectares remaining from the 50,000 hectares of Pinus and Eucalyptus trees. At the rate we are going, if we are not going to start planting 3,000 hectares every year, come eighteen years from today, we shall have completely no plantation trees.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Simama: Mr Chairperson, we shall be caught in the same way as we are caught with electricity today. 75 per cent of the seedlings planted by Itimpi ZAFFICO Forestry Station which were earmarked for this year’s planting could not germinate. This is because of not promoting research in Zambia. Eucalyptus trees around this station are completely harvested. The money raised from these trees has not been put back to the soil. The answer that this Government has is that, in the budget, the money allocated for planting is not enough. We need a complete overhaul. We should start afresh from management, silculture operation, mensuration data bank research, protection, seed collection and infrastructure. Then, we shall start talking about something.
Mr Chairperson, with regard to indigenous trees, especially the Muombo Woodlands, if you travel from Lusaka to Ndola along the road, you will see a few trees. If you go one kilometre inside, you will find that the whole area is completely open and there are no trees. If we want to restock indigenous trees, we need to encourage the Government to start thinking of this. We should promote quality drinking water, environmental protection and sensitisation of people on climate change through legislative and budgetary measures. Therefore, I stand to support the budget from the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources.
I thank you, Sir.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Just as a reminder. We allow making reference to the points on paper, but let us avoid to be seen as if we are reading statements.
Mr Nkombo: (Mazabuka): Mr Chairperson, I thank you very much for giving me an opportunity to debate the Policy Statement by the hon. Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources. I would like to begin by saying that the tourism industry has a lot of potential that, in my view, is under utilised by our colleagues on your right.
Mr Chairperson, I will start by saying that running a Government is like running a business. Therefore, in the tourism industry there has to be a categorical investment in advertising. I have, in mind, the fact that I am one of the very few fortunate Zambians who can watch foreign channels on television. I do have, in mind, many advertisements that I see of countries such as Malaysia, South Africa and Kenya which advertise on international cable channels such as CNN, BBC, Al Jazeera and the National Geographic Channel.
Mr Chairperson, it would be very appropriate if the hon. Minister can consider to also advertise this country for its great potential in the tourism industry. We have the Victoria Falls which sits in Livingstone in Zambia, but from what we see in the advertisements, it is as though the Victoria Falls is in Zimbabwe. It has even become worse now that South African tour operators are packaging holidays, because Livingstone is just two hours flight from Johannesburg. They include the Victoria Falls in the tour packages to Livingstone. Tourists will simply come to Zambia for a weekend where they enjoy what they see in and yet, they have made their payments abroad, maybe, in South Africa itself or England or wherever they come from.
I think this is an area the hon. Minister and his team can look at so that whoever is packaging the Victoria Falls elsewhere - which belongs to this country - must pay a premium towards our national Gross Domestic Product (GDP).
Mr Sing’ombe: Hear, hear!
Mr Nkombo: It is quite folly to allow people to just come for a few hours on a flight from Cape Town and go back wherever they came from and say they went to South Africa and saw the Victoria Falls.
Mr Chairperson, for many well travelled people, it is common knowledge that as we interact abroad and say that that I come from Lusaka in Zambia, people out there will probably ask whether that is in Kenya or Nigeria. I am trying to emphasise the fact that the ministry requires to put efforts and money where its mouth is and advertise this country adequately in order for us to get the full benefits of the tourism industry.
Mr Chairperson, it is also clear that Mozambique, Angola, the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) and other countries that have come out of war are doing a lot better in this industry than we are. Therefore, we have to be asking ourselves what we are not doing right. I want to urge the hon. Minister that I think the answer lies in advertising. I would like to see even a small enterprise - and I am sorry to label it ‘small’ but I am sure in its own right it is big - such as Kozo Lodge being advertised on the Cable News Network (CNN).
Laughter
Mr D. Mwila: Kozo!
Mr Nkombo: I would like to also very quickly indicate that there are places where we have nearly a million people passing on a daily basis such as the International Airports of Johannesburg, Heathrow, Gatwick and Atlanta. The hon. Minister should find out how other countries are attracting so many travellers and put billboards at these airports to show where Zambia is.
Mr D. Mwila: Yes!
Mr Nkombo: That way, we shall not be suffering the embarrassment of being asked if Zambia is in Tanzania.
Laughter
Mr Chairperson, we have beautiful game parks in this country such as the Liuwa, Luangwa, Kafue and all other national parks which must be advertised on international broadcasting channels. Advertising of tourism facilities should not just be confined to Muvi Television. The people that are seeing these facilities on local television like Muvi Television and the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC) are Zambians, who are poor like us. Therefore, the tourism adverts will just make a good sight on television and they will just say, “oh, ndiye ku Livingstone kuja” meaning that is Livingstone. There are many Zambians who have not actually seen these tourist attractions.
On that note, I would like to also urge the hon. Minister to consider making a policy that will actually make indigenous Zambian people afford holidays. In low peak seasons, please get into arrangements with these ultramodern facilities like the Royal Livingstone so that a poor man like me, Gary Nkombo from Nkombo village in Chief Mwanachingwala’s area, can also go there. So, try and get some preferential rate for your nationals because that way we will be getting the benefit of what potential we have.
Mr Chairperson, I would like to also quickly say that the ministry must try to look at formulating a policy that is going to unbundle our national heritage sites such as the Kalambo, Chishimba, Kundalila and many other waterfalls in this country too numerous to mention, so that the Zambian people can build facilities there. In my view, that is the direction the ministry should have taken in the administering of the Tourism Fund so as to encourage the Zambian people to go and build resorts, lodges and golf courses around these natural ecological areas and thereby empower them. We cannot introduce a fund and say that we are going to promote tourism and then I convert my house, No.18/44 Lubambe Road in Northmead, into a lodge and think this is actually promoting tourism. In my view, we may just, without knowing, be promoting brothels. I said this last year when I stated that the Tourism Fund must have some guidelines that will help enhance the potential of the industry. Right now, we have on every street you pass in Lusaka, Livingstone, Monze or Mazabuka, guest houses and not hotels. Whom and what are these guest houses for? The hon. Minister must be aware that this Tourism Fund by the ministry is actually promoting illicit activities. I would like the ministry to try and harmonise the existence of the – what did I call it again …
Major Chizhyuka: National heritage sites.
Mr Nkombo: …national heritage sites in order to enhance the promotion of the tourism industry.
With those few words, I thank you, Sir.
Mr Sikazwe (Chimbamilonga): Mr Chairperson, I stand to support the vote on the Floor of the House on the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Sikazwe: I always support the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources because tourism is at the heart of Chimbamilonga Constituency.
Mr Munaile: Bebe, boyi.
Mr Sikazwe: As we talk about the tourism sector in Zambia, we must be aware that the benefit lies in Northern Province because we still have natural resources. We still have a lot of fish, which is used as bait by the participants in the fishing competition. In 2003, we had three teams of three members each in this competition. Much has been talked about this in this House and as I am talking, the fishing competition is going on the Lake Tanganyika in Chimbamilonga Constituency in Nsumbu.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Sikazwe: This activity has revived the defunct Ndole Bay Lodge which was privatised or nationalised by the United National Independence Party (UNIP) Government and has brought employment in the constituency and the district. To that effect, the poverty levels are being reduced by the people in the constituency. As I am talking, there are 25 teams with three persons per team. That is an achievement for the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources in the tourism sector. This shows the response of the people of Chimbamilonga to the promotion of tourism when they do not even have communication facilities and good roads.
Mr D. Mwila: Hear, hear!
Mr Sikazwe: This is also the response of the people of Chimbamilonga …
Mr Munaile: Landa, boyi.
Mr Sikazwe: … who are always controlling pollution of water.
Mr D. Mwila: Hear, hear!
Mr Sikazwe: Mr Chairperson, when I am talking about the fishing competition, it sometimes becomes like a story to most of the listeners. The fishing competition has put Chimbamilonga and Kasaba Bay on the world map to the effect that it was one of the designated tourism centres in the 1970s and 80s, at international level. It is the only place where the anglers would enjoy getting tiger fish, nkupi and the heaviest fish in this continent, Africa. Therefore, when we bring the people from foreign countries, we are adding to the GDP of this country.
Mr Chairperson, my interest today is on how we can develop tourism vis-à-vis the security. Three weeks or a month ago, there was a document which was published by the United States Government stating that Chimbamilonga in Nsumbu National Park was not a safe destination for tourists. In my reaction, I want to say that was the worst de-campaigning that has ever been done to the tourism sector in Zambia.
Mr Munaile: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}
Mr Sikazwe: I want to state that there have been insurgencies in the Democratic Republic of Congo which have not started recently but some time in the 1940s. The tourism sector has been booming in Nsumbu National Park despite the conflicts in the Democratic Republic of Congo. It is true that we border the DRC, even on the waters of Lake Tanganyika.
However, if we follow the history of the area, there has never been any abduction or loss of life of a tourist as a result of the Congolese rebels.
We just had one case in 1978 when a crocodile attacked one of the tourists. Our area is a good destination for tourists for your information, Easterners. It is very unfortunate to note that the Western governments are de-campaigning Zambia and have removed us on the map in terms of tourist attraction centres.
Mr Chairperson to prove that, in 1996 when war broke out in the Democratic Republic of Congo - by then the Nkamba Bay Lodge was being run by Game Truckers, the subsidiary company of passenger flights where we were getting scania trucks - there was no loss of life. Therefore, one wonders how there can be insecurity in Northern Province today when we are trying to revive Kasaba Bay. Do they want to scare leaders because there is enmity?
Mr Milupi: Yes. Ask them.
Mr Sikazwe: Mr Chairperson, I am very sorry to state this to the American Government that they must leave Chimbamilonga, Kaputa District and Nsumbu National Park alone because we are the safest people in this world.
Mr Chairperson, regarding the security status in Nsumbu National Park, we have the Zambia wildlife Authority (ZAWA) monitoring poaching and other programmes related to game animals. As I am talking, the vote is coming seeking the recruitment of more ZAWA officers so that we enhance the security of the animals. We have the Zambia National Service from the Ministry of Defence who are supporting the security at the frontier. There is also a new building for the Zambia Police. So, where is the insecurity in Nsumbu National Park? I was trying to put it on record that Nsumbu National Park is the safest destination for tourists in Zambia.
Mr Chairperson, Kasaba Bay Resort Project has been pronounced ably, and I want to appreciate the President’s intervention on this project. The only way to develop this and to bring it to reality is that there must be a relationship between the ministries of Works and Supply, Energy and Water Development and Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources.
Mr Chairperson, when I was debating on the Motion on the President’s Speech, I said that today, we are fortunate enough to have a windfall tax waived on mining companies and we are just asking for US$100 million for our projects from Kasama, Nsumbu and Kaputa. If that road is done, we are going to see companies rushing to Nsumbu to invest in tourism in our country.
Coming to communication, and I always talk about this, the new hon. Minister of Communications and Transport should work closely with the hon. Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources to make sure that we are connected to the mobile service providers. The Communications Authority of Zambia is doing harm to the rural areas with that 5 per cent the mobile service providers are paying per year. There is also what is called Universal Fund where the three mobile service providers are paying 5 per cent of their gross income. How can they fail to subsidise on our behalf in the rural areas so that network is connected to Chimbamilonga Constituency?
Mr Chairperson, there was a study from the Department of Fisheries known as biodiversity, where they are trying to control the level of petroleum pollution which is in water as a result of so many vessels moving on the lake. That project, hon. Minister, through the Chair, must come to reality.
The fourth one is the energy sector. Two days ago, I stood here talking about Kapisha Geo-thermo Project and some people have nicknamed me as Mr Kapisha Geo-thermo Project. I will be the happiest person because once that project is completed, it will add to the tourism attraction, which will, in turn, attract many tourists to come to see how our geo-thermo project or how the plant operates. They have been going to Kenya, but do not have that chance of seeing it. For Zambia, since there is high level of hospitality in the tourism industry, they have the chance to see what we have in our country.
Mr Chairperson, since Nsumbu National Park will be the controlling point for Kasaba Bay Resort Project, we need a big health facility where the would-be company management will be attended to with their families. Therefore, I am urging all the ministries involved to come together and build these facilities that are needed in order to attract tourists.
Interruptions
The Deputy Chairperson: Order! We are consulting loudly.
Mr Sikazwe: Mr Chairperson, I am urging the Ministry of Health to build a first stage hospital so that the investors who are coming to Chimbamilonga via Nsumbu National Park can have a place to go to for their medical problems.
On the issue of education, they would also want to take their children to school. Therefore, since Nsumbu will be the controlling point, we need a high school there for the investors’ children and other villagers. When these few projects have been completed, the Kasaba Bay Resort Project will be a boom in the tourism sector because we have enough land and a lot of animals. One other important point is that the Itigi which is ZAWA’s pride today is only found in Nsumbu National Park.
Mr Milupi: Tell them!
Mr Sikazwe: Mr Chairperson, having put much emphasis on all the five ministries that I have mentioned above, they need to work together to make sure that this infrastructure is in place. The tourism sector and the Kasaba Bay Resort Project, in particular, which is in the hands of the President, will come to reality and once it is done, there will be a scramble. Already, I have been told that all the shores have been taken over. They want to extend to the main land. That is why hon. Minister, through the Chair, you have seen my people encroaching on the national park because they do not have anywhere to go.
Laughter
Mr Sikazwe: Mr Chairperson, on Nsumbu National Park again, on environmental degradation, we are attracting the habitation of animals because we have been collecting funds for sometime. The open land which was given to us as part of the chiefdom’s land is no longer accommodating the population and, as a result, we have now moved to charcoal burning. As I said, if the energy sector comes into place, we are going to reduce the number of people who cutting down trees hence increasing the habitation of animals. This is the most important part.
Mr Chairperson the national park is in the chiefdom of Senior Chief Nsama. We have Nsama Community Resource Board where we raise a bit of funds. Much as we are realising and benefiting from this board, I am urging, through you, Sir, the Ministry of Energy and Water Development together with the Department of ZAWA to be proactive and see how we are spending money as a community. It is becoming a common trend in abusing funds because accountability is not properly done.
Mr Chairperson, in conclusion, I go back to state that Nsumbu area near the Congo frontier is safe for any tourist to come from anywhere. Even Americans can come and taste the tourism which is there at Nsumbu National Park and prove that they will not be abducted by any Congolese.
Mr Lubinda: Uko! Kamba futi!
Mr Sikazwe: Mr Chairperson, all I am emphasising is that the road infrastructure must be done properly as well as the communication department in ensuring that we are also able to have these mobile service providers in our area. As I am talking now, it is very difficult for me to talk to my people. If anything goes wrong, these tourists need to talk to their families. If we are connected by the service providers, we are going to be accessing the internet. People in my constituency want to know how their funds are spent by communicating to each other within the constituency. This is a cardinal point to the Ministry of Communications and Transport. The Communications Authority of Zambia should work hand in hand with the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources so that we realise the full potential of tourism, which is not just Mfuwe or Livingstone, but also in Northern Province.
I am always talking about the Northern Province because I want to prove to these hon. Members of Parliament the tourism potential of the Northern Province. I want them to be tourists in December when this House adjourns. They should come and join me in Chimbamilonga and Nsumbu National Park.
Laughter
Mr Sikazwe: I am extending an invitation to the hon. Ministers as well this year for their leisure. I will also invite His Excellency the President to come and visit us in the Nsumbu National Park.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Sikazwe: This has been the trend with the First Republican President and the Second Republican President, Dr Chiluba, with the wife by then. They used to come to our place.
Ms Tembo covered her face with her scarf.
Laughter
Mr Sikazwe: Mr Chairperson, I rest my case by inviting everybody to come to the Northern Province.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Kanyanyamina (Kanchibiya): Mr Chairperson, to begin my debate, I would rather say that this world lies between two. The developed countries go to fetch their food …
Laughter
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
Mr Kanyanyamina: I was saying that I will divide this world into two parts. The developed countries buy their food requisites from the shopping malls. They also buy their coffins from the shopping malls and other industrial areas.
Laughter
Mr Kanyanyamina: However, for us rural Zambians, mother forest is a very significant figure because, first of all, like other debaters have said, it inhabits wildlife. We also bury our dead in tree barks.
Hon. PF Member: Tree barks?
Mr Kanyanyamina: Yes. We also collect mushrooms from there and do not have to go to the shops. However, the trees are now totally finished in this country. This is a very serious concern, hon. Minister. If we just take it as a talking shop, we are killing Zambia.
Hon. Opposition Member: Cry!
Mr Kanyanyamina: We know that it is already dead. That is why we are already bemoaning floods, droughts and other complications. It is very clear and makes no sense for other hon. Members to tell me to cry. I will not cry, but I will tell you to be very serious and take seriously this concern of planting trees.
Hon. MMD Member: How many have you planted?
Mr Kanyanyamina: Mr Speaker, before independence, the colonial masters knew what they were doing. Perhaps, on those lines, they managed our resources better than we are doing today because we are too selfish. The previous debater said that we have destroyed the forests because of farming. Others think that farming means deforestation. No.
Ms Masiye: Chitemene.
Mr Kanyanyamina: Chitemene is even much better because you chop up the branches and the trees still grow instead of uprooting the trees. That is the reason we Northerners still have some trees surviving. It is because of the Chitemene System. It is not a bad system.
Mr Chairperson, I would like to urge the hon. Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources who has started on a very good note, to emulate the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing and the hon. Minister of Community Development and Social Services.
Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Kanyanyamina: He has started on a very good note and he should not backslide. The colonial masters were giving a deadline of late bush fires. By 15th August, all bushes should have been burnt, failure to which, culprits playing with fire were taken to book. However, today, if you look at the poor forestry officers, they do not even have equipment, bicycles or machetes to defend themselves from the people who cut down trees.
Laughter
Mr Kanyanyamina: It is not a laughing matter. It is a matter of saving mother Zambia. If you do not support your forestry officers, you can talk about tree planting or any system of controlling deforestation and it will not work. You need equipment. You also need to motivate the people at the grassroots who are doing the work and the combatants who are in the field.
Mr Chairperson, I would like to urge the ministry not to make tree planting as a talk shop. Let us save mother Zambia by you appearing on public media. You should not only release a press statement which any ministry or even I can do.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Kanyanyamina: We would like you to really show by planting trees at Kozo Lodge. It does not matter whether or not they are indigenous trees. In fact, indigenous trees are more favourable than exotic trees. They do much better because they are fire resistant. Learn the mistakes from Australia.
Business was suspended from 1615 until 1630 hours.
[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the Chair]
Mr Kanyanyamina: Mr Chairperson, before business was suspended, I was sending a reminder to the hon. Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources that he should be sending matches to the local authorities as a symbol of authority so that we put deadlines to late bush fires because this is what is destroying our forests.
Mr Chairperson, I would like to appeal to the ministry, at the same time, that they should re-enforce sensitisation about climate change because my grandmother and the people I represent in the rural areas do not know exactly what it means. If possible, we need to try and translate into local languages pamphlets that should be distributed and be given to church gatherings, funerals and any other gathering because this is a cross cutting issue.
Mr Chairperson, I would like to commend the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC) for the Chintobentobe Television Show. For the past two weeks, they have been airing, on television, programmes on climate change where they have been calling lecturers from the University of Zambia to explain what it means. I would like other ethnic groups to emulate this as it is a national concern.
This is not a laughing matter if we have to fight climate change. Climate change is not about talking, it is about putting things into practice in a smaller way that every hon. Member can contribute. It is not only for the Government. It is for every Zambian.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Kanyanyamina: Mr Chairperson, tourists come to our country not to look at our skyscrapers, if we have any. They come to look at our natural resource which is found in the rural areas of Zambia. In these rural areas, there are beautiful resources like game parks and water falls. Unfortunately, there are bad roads leading to these places. The bad roads are everywhere, whether it is in Liuwa, Kanchibiya or Chama game parks. Wherever you go, our game parks are always associated with terrible roads.
Someone suggested that we should advertise our game parks in the international media. I think we will just expose our shame.
Laughter
Mr Kanyanyamina: When the tourists come to Zambia, they would like to view our beautiful wildlife, but the problem is how to reach these game parks. They would be lucky if they reached the game parks without broken spines.
Hon. Opposition members: Hear, hear!
Mr Kanyanyamina: Therefore, let us try to make life easier for our tourists. If we say Zambia is a tourist destination, then we must improve on the road network leading to game parks and lodges.
Look at the Chiundaponde Road. I always bemoan the state of that road and I will never stop until it is worked on. We have the shoebill and black lechwe. If you research, you will learn that the black lechwe is only found in Zambia and nowhere else in the world. Therefore, if you see it anywhere else bring it back to Chiundaponde because that is where it belongs. As hon. Member of Parliament from that area, I emphasise, if you see it somewhere else, bring it back.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Kanyanyamina: However, the roads are very bad. The previous debater invited the dignitaries of this country to his constituency, but I would also invite His Honour the Vice-President and the rest to come and see what beauty we have in our area although the bad roads are a drawback. Once you reach the place, you will be consoled by the rich wildlife we have that side.
Mr Chairperson, a lot of money is being collected from tourists who come to view our wildlife. It would be a good idea to give part of that money to the Community Resources Boards (CRBs). However these funds are being misused. I would like to suggest that this money is given to the local authorities, while CRBs should be allowed to monitor how these funds are being utilised. When these two groups are allowed to work together, there will be no misuse of money.
Otherwise, giving the money to CRBs is not working. It was a good idea and I do not blame you, but you are not at the grassroots to see how funds are being used. I tried to suggest to the Government to give the money to whoever has game reserves and then empower the CRBs to monitor how the funds are being utilised. Maybe, this can work. Try it.
Sir, I would also like to comment on the hunting licence fees because most of my people in my constituency cannot afford them. I do not support poaching, but I also want them to have protein from the meat.
Laughter
Mr Kanyanyamina: What I am saying is that, kindly, …
Interruptions
Mr Kanyanyamina: Yes, because we are rich in wildlife.
Sir, it is only tourists who can afford to buy those hunting licences, but the local poor cannot afford. As result, they will not benefit from our own animals. It is not fair. Therefore, I am suggesting that you reduce the hunting licence fees. If an Impala, just a simple animal can cost K500,000, I know it worth more than that because it is life, but how many common Zambians are going to manage to pay that amount of money? What about an elephants? How much would it cost? I am not saying sell an elephant, but I am just making a comparison.
Mr Kanyanyamina: If an impala which is in the family of antelopes …
Interruptions
Mr Kanyanyamina: … costs K5000,000, are we being real?
In other words, we are encouraging people who are desperate for meat to start poaching. There are no butcheries because we do not have electricity to refrigerate meat. We are encouraging people to start illegal hunting. Illicit hunting results into poaching. When you are poaching, you are forced to kill a lot of animals so that even if you are caught …
Laughter
Mr Kanyanyamina: … you are at least caught for a just cause.
Laughter
Mr Kanyanyamina: I am, therefore, appealing to you to reduce the price for hunting licences because it is our right to have meat in this country. Whether you live in town or rural areas, you need to eat meat. After all, you people who live in town enjoy game meat. You always request for game meat.
Laughter
Mr Kanyanyamina: What about the people who see these animals and whose crops are destroyed by these beasts everyday?
Therefore, I humbly appeal, on behalf of my people in Kanchibiya and other game management areas, to the powers that be to reduce the price for hunting licences fees and reduce on poaching.
We would like to have a situation where once we ask you how many impalas were slaughtered last year through legal hunting, you should be able to give us proper statistics unlike the fake figures that we have been hearing from you.
Laughter
Mr Kanyanyamina: Most of the poached animals are not recorded. What you tell us is what tourists hunt. I can go on and on, but I am sure that other hon. Members of Parliament would also like to debate.
Mr Chairperson, I thank you.
Mr Imasiku (Liuwa): Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank you for giving this opportunity to contribute on this Vote.
Sir, in the first place, I would like to state that tourism is one of those industries which are very important. If we do our best to develop it, this country would be a paradise.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank the able hon. Minister who is running this lucrative industry because the strategies that he has put in place that are already bearing fruit.
I do not want to debate for a long time, but I would like to comment on Liuwa Game Park. What is Liuwa Game Park? I think those of you who are hearing about this park think that it is a small place. Liuwa Game Park is one of the most important and lucrative parks in this country. It is a plain and that is why it is different from other parks because they have tress. You only see animals in that plain. You are able to see all the beasts, zebras and many other animals
Hon. Government Members: Lions!
Mr Imasiku: You ought to be careful because there are also lions.
When you are in the middle of Liuwa Game Park, you are seeing the heavens meeting the horizon. It is a very beautiful place. The game animals and fish are found in that park. That is the kind of park I am talking about. Liuwa Game Park is a place where everybody must go. I know that all of us have been to Mfuwe and other places, but Liuwa Game Park is special in a way that when you are there, you do not struggle to see the animals, you just drive in between animals. If you want, you can even touch them.
Laughter
Mr Imasiku: Yes! I am not joking. You can drive among animals and if you are tired you can even touch one. That is Liuwa Game Park. It is a very rich park in terms of animals.
Sir, this Government has done a lot for Liuwa Game Park.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Imasiku: When the New Deal Government came into power, the animals in the park were almost finished.
Mr Chairperson, at the time I was growing up, we used to move amongst animals. There were so many animals such as wildebeest and buffaloes. Due to war in Angola, almost all the animals where finished because of being poached for the liberation war in that country. At the time the New Deal Government came in power with His Excellency, Dr Levy Patrick Mwanawasa manning the system, this park now started steering back to life.
Interruptions
Mr Imasiku: Sir, this is the time when this Government entered into an agreement with the African Parks (AP). African Parks can have its own short comings, but what they have done for us there is to make sure that the animals grow and increase in number. When we started, the wildebeest were only fifteen thousand. There were no buffaloes and zebras. When this Govenrment took over and entered into this agreement, the wildebeest which were only fifteen thousand multiplied to more than forty thousand.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Imasiku: Sir, is this not an achievement? You cannot achieve something without some shortcomings. When you are there, you are not allowed to walk with dogs anyhow. Before you are allowed in, they will ask you what you are going to do. Everything is systematic. I know that there are some people who are skeptical about the system there. Sometimes, it is exaggerated. If you go to Liuwa Game Park now, you will enjoy life in that place.
Sir, I want to emphasise that everybody should try to visit Liuwa Game Park. Liuwa Game Park, as somebody mentioned in this House, must be advertised as a tourist attraction. The hon. Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natrual Resources has really done his best in collaborating with African Parks to make sure that it succeeds.
Mr Chairperson, what has African Parks done for us? Currently, the African Parks people are trying to help the people of Liuwa. They have built a school called Bukoko, sunk boreholes, employed a few of our children as game scouts and they are even giving us milling pumps. These people are trying to give us their best by even assisting in cultural affairs. They may not have given us a lot of money but they have tried to roof our schools which were poorly made by putting iron sheets there. African Parks itself, as a company, is really helping. When you go into details, you may find problems are found here and there but that is a job we must rectify.
Mr Chairperson, Liuwa Game Park has got some challenges as well which I am telling the hon. Minister. I have also talked to ZAWA and all the concerned people. I know my listening Government will, as we table them like this, help us. The major problem in Liuwa Game Park is the road network.
Mr Milupi: Hear, hear!
Mr Imasiku: Sir, we do not have a road in this park. One time when I was coming from my tours in the park, I found a tourist stuck. The people told him that I was the hon. Member of Parliament and you can imagine how I felt. The tourist asked me why I did not put any roads in that park and I told him that I had to negotiate for them.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Imasiku: Mr Chairperson, actually the day before yesterday, I was with Her Royal Highness Mbwanjikana. She gave me the message to request the hon. Minister to construct a road around Liuwa Game Park. We also need a road which starts from Kalabo to Kena and the one that goes up to Kuli and joins to Libonda Harbour. Her Royal Highness also requested for a pontoon. The hon. Minister of Works and Supply should help us in acquiring this. If you want to visit Liuwa Game Park to watch those beautiful animals, you have to go round Kalabo, a distance of over 100 kilometres when it can only take you 30 kilometres if you pass through Libonda. These are the requests we are making. These are some of the challenges we are facing which the hon. Minister should be aware of.
Sir, we also need lodges in Liuwa Game Park and I think this issue falls under the private sector. With the goodwill from the ministry concerned, people who have got money can be attracted to invest in this park. The people who go there at the moment have to sleep in tents and so on. We, therefore, request the ministry concerned to assist us in this issue. I am sure by doing this, Liuwa can develop.
Mr Chairperson, there are a lot of other issues in the game park. When someone is on that plain, it may be difficult to communicate with the people. So, if we can have some solar power in Libonda and Liuwa, the whole of that place will actually be communicating. Therefore, this is a challenge to the Ministry of Communications and Transport. You should help us make that place beautiful.
Sir, the hon. Minister should also help us with the electrification of that place. I know rural electrification is in progress and we request that it be hastened so that Liuwa can develop. If we had an industry in Liuwa, it would develop and help this country. Therefore, this matter should be looked into quickly so that the people of Liuwa can benefit and the tourists can enjoy being in that place they way they do when they are in Nsumbu or Malambo.
Sir, Liuwa is one of the places where we have three health centres. You have to travel about 120 kilometres to reach another rural health centre. I have talked to the hon. Minister of Health on a number of occassions and I think he will come to our aid so that when people go to Liuwa, they will not have problems.
Sir, there are so many challenges in Liuwa, but the major one I want to table to the hon. Minister is communication because when I looked at the budget, there are so many roads to other parks which are not very important according to me. These are parks which are as yielding as Liuwa. In these parks, there are roads which have been put up by ZAWA. What about Liuwa Game Park which is more recreative? In this planning period which we are having, again, I request the Ministry of Works and Supply to think of Liuwa. The problem I am finding is that the issue is being kicked around. When you talk to the Ministry of Works and Supply, they will say that it falls under the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources. When you talk to ZAWA, they will tell you to talk to African Parks. We should have a stance. I know if given the right to communication in Liuwa, this country will benefit more and the people of Liuwa and Kalabo will never be the same.
Mr Chairperson, I thank you.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwezi): Mr Chairperson, first of all, I have to appreciate and thank the hon. Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources for indicating an increment in the number of tourists coming to this country. This means that he is trying to market our country. I want to ask him that he should try to market our country more. I think this should be as a result of my advice that I gave him last time that he should be working…
Laughter
Mr Sing’ombe:…in harmony with the hon. Minister of Home Affairs to ensure that people are treated well so that they can also help in marketing our country. Hon. Minister, thank you very much for adhering to that advice.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Sing’ombe: Sir, I just want to zero in on a few issues that I feel were not put in my colleague’s debate. I want to appreciate Hon. Nkombo for touching on most of my points. May I echo on the issue of transport, hon. Minister, through the Chairperson.
I think that most of our roads leading to tourist attraction centres need your serious attention.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Sing’ombe: When I talk about tourism, I always refer to the Kalomo/Dundumwezi Road, which is critical for tourism. Last year around December, I travelled to the gate …
Mr Milupi: Game park.
Mr Sing’ombe: …oh, game park, and on that particular day, I met more than five families coming from that side. Their major complaint was that the road was very bad.
Secondly, these people indicated to me that while they were relaxing, they needed to communicate with their families. Therefore, the issue of communication, which was raised by Hon. Sikazwe, is very important in the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Sing’ombe: Mr Chairperson, I am privileged to be one of the people who has visited local tourism areas. I have been to Chishimba Falls, Mfuwe, etc, and the roads are very bad. Surely we need to make sure that these roads are rehabilitated.
Mr Chairperson, I appreciated the recent exhibition on climate change, but I would have loved to see our local scenarios. Most of the exhibition that we saw, really, showed countries that some of us do not even know. When you talk about Japan, it is different from Lusaka or Dundumwezi. To us, that exhibition was not meaningful because we wanted to see our local scenarios. We have had floods in North-Western Province, Monze, Mazabuka and most of the areas in Southern Province. Those should have been included in the exhibition because that is what we wanted to see.
The other issue that I wanted to zero in on is the issue of facilities nearer our camps. If I am not mistaken, the Act states that the nearest home away from a camp is supposed to be 6 kilometres. Hon. Minister, this means that ZAWA officers who have children that go school should cover 6 kilometres. Our mothers should also travel 6 kilometres to the nearest health centres. I want to ask you, hon. Minister, to consider bringing such facilities closer to our officers because they are walking long distances to escort their children to school. Mind you, these are people who stay in game parks and they cannot let their children …
Laughter
Mr Sing’ombe: …walk long distances alone. On a daily basis, these children have to be escorted by parents, meaning that when these ZAWA officers are escorting their children 6 kilometres away from their camps, they are leaving room for poachers.
Mr Chairperson, our traditional leaders have to be highly sensitised on the issue of cutting down trees unnecessarily. There are a lot of bush fires in rural areas. We have tried within our means to sensitise the villagers, but I think that there is need for your ministry to organise workshops where the local leadership is informed of the dangers of cutting trees unnecessarily.
Personally, I have put up posters on my farm that trees should not be cut down. We want this information, hon. Minister, to be taken to our local people. As I mentioned earlier, these exhibitions must go to all the districts. Previously, in my area, the issue of charcoal burning was not there. However, because of the problems that our people are going through, they have now started cutting down trees to survive. We should make sure that these areas are addressed seriously.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Sing’ombe: Mr Chairperson, lastly, I wish to echo Hon. Kanyanyamina’s statement that these game parks are our gardens. We should consider reducing the fees on our animals so that even our locals, once in a while, can manage to buy animals. We do not want to turn our people into poachers. Therefore, the only way we can reduce poaching is by reducing the fees on the animals and also allowing them to buy these animals within the district centres. The issue of them travelling to Chilanga is something that actually increases poaching. They cannot afford to travel to Chilanga and even if they could afford, the fees for the animals are just too high.
I thank you, Mr Chairperson.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Kaingu: Mr Chairperson, firstly, I would like to thank all the hon. Members who have debated on this Vote, those who had intentions to debate and those who have given me the support quietly. That is how it should be.
Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}
Mr Kaingu: Mr Chairperson, I would like to make a few comments on the issues that the few hon. Members raised.
Hon. Simama made a comment that we should work with communities. I am sure that if you listened to my policy statement, you would have heard that we are actually working out modalities of working with communities. Further, you said something about tree planting. Again, if you had listened to the statement, you would have heard that our budget theme for this year is on tree planting. However, I would like to thank you for your contribution. I would not want to say anything on the bit of ignorance you showed on the CDM …
Laughter
Mr Kaingu: …and the Kyoto Protocol. It looked like you wanted to contribute on something that you do not know much about.
Laughter
Mr Kaingu: I would like to inform Hon. Nkombo that advertising on Cable News Network (CNN) is not cheap. When we started the Zambia Tourism Campaign in 2005, we mobilised some resources and made an attempt to advertise on CNN. I can assure you that it was not cheap. I also want to tell you that with the empowerment that you have given my ministry, through the Zambia Tourism Board, which will be a marketing tool, we will make an effort to improve on our marketing. Hon. Nkombo, I thank you for that contribution.
I would like to tell Hon. Sikazwe, hon. Member for Chimbamilonga, that the Northern Circuit is the gem of tourism in Zambia and we will do our level best to develop that area. Therefore, be assured that a lot of effort will be made, particularly this year, to develop the area.
Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Kaingu: I wish to thank Hon. Kanyanyamina for those encouraging words. It is very rare to get such words from Zambians.
Laughter
Mr Kaingu: They are simply known to blame no matter how much one tries. They just think that one is not making an effort. I wish to thank him for those good words.
Mr Kanyanyamina: Hear, hear!
Mr Kaingu: Through you, I also want to thank the Chintobentobe Bemba Programme that is helping to sensitise people on the effects of climate change. I wish to appeal to other Members to request their local radio stations to emulate what the Chintobentobe Bemba Programme is doing.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Kaingu: The hon. Member of Parliament for Dundumwenzi, said it all that we are a listening Government. Therefore, if one contributes something sensible, we will take it up and improve on it.
With those few words, may I …
Mr Imasiku: Liuwa!
Mr Kaingu: … Liuwa.
Laughter
Mr Kaingu: I would like to thank the hon. Member of Parliament for Liuwa …
Mr Imasiku: Hear, hear!
Mr Kaingu: …for having advertised Liuwa. It is true that we remained with one species in Liuwa but after working with Hon. Milupi …
Mr Milupi: Hear, hear!
Mr Sing’ombe: The Induna!
Mr Kaingu: … the Induna …
Laughter
Mr Kaingu: … Chairperson and an intending candidate …
Mr Sing’ombe: His excellency the president!
Mr Milupi laughed.
Mr Kaingu: …for presidency, I want to inform you that we have improved on the species of animals. We now have buffalos, zebras, etc.
Mr Chairperson, with those few words, let me thank the hon. Members of Parliament for giving me the support and I hope there will be no further questions.
I thank you, Sir.
Laughter
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}
VOTE 68/01 – (Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources – Human Resource and Administration – K37,751,890,106)
Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 7, Activity 08 – Television and Radio Awareness Programmes – K25,920,000. In winding up debate on the policy of the Ministry, the hon. Minister called upon Members of Parliament to go to their community radio stations to emulate Chintobentobe. Can he confirm that Members of Parliament will be allocated money for those programmes from this K25,920,000 that is allocated?
Mr Kaingu: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 7, Activity 08 – Television and Radio Awareness Programmes – K25,920,000, we are not going to give money to the Members of Parliament but use the money to sensitise people using the radio and television.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Lubinda: So, how are they going to move?
Mr Milupi (Luena): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarifications on Programme 3, Activity 02 – Zambia National Tourist Board/Zambia Tourist Board – K3,430,036,033 and Activity 05 – Zambia Wildlife Authority (1) – K13,648,950,840, these two activities are the cornerstones of the development of tourism in this country. Would the Minister, if he is able to explain, why both institutions have had their support reduced? Zambia National Tourist Board from K5,696,702,700 last year, to K3,430,036,033 and Zambia Wildlife Authority from K20,015,617,507 last year to K13,648,950,840 this year. Would he also explain why ZAWA has not been given the recapitalisation fund that they so badly require which is over K60 billion to carry out their work effectively?
Mr Kaingu: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 3, Activity 02 – Zambia National Tourist Board/Zambia Tourist Board – K3,430,036,033 and Activity 05 – Zambia Wildlife Authority (1) – K13,648,950,840, the reduction is because the Norwegian client to ZAWA has been reduced that is why we have this reduction. As for the money for recapitalisation, it is in the Ministry of Finance and National Planning.
I thank you, Sir.
Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 8, Activity 02 – Registry Operations – K95,964,000, can I have details on this?
Mr Kaingu: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 8, Activity 02 – Registry Operations – K95,964,000, it is to help the department carry out its operations.
I thank you, Sir.
Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!
Interruptions
Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC (Chasefu): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 10, Activity 01 – HIV/AIDS – Provision of ARVs to Affected Members of Staff – Nil. Last year K19,963,982 was allocated but this year there is no budget line. Does it mean that they have been cured?
Mr Hamududu: Or, they are dead!
Mr C. K. B. Banda: Or are they dead?
Laughter
Mr Kaingu: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 10, Activity 01 – HIV/AIDS – Provision of ARVs Staff – Nil, the programme has remained the same. However, the 2007 provision 01 of K19,963,982 has been combined with provision 02. This is because ARVs will now be obtained free of charge from public health centres.
I thank you, Sir.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Ms Imbwae (Lukulu West): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5, Activity 01 – Training – Nil. Last year there was and allocation of K15,718,528 and this year there is nothing. Is the ministry not sending anybody for training? May I please be informed?
Mr Kaingu: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 5, Activity 01 – Training – Nil, training was conducted last year.
I thank you, Sir.
Laughter
Vote 68/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
VOTE 68/02 – (Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources – Forestry Department – K8,877,206,826).
Dr Chishya (Pambashe): Mr Chairperson, Programme 10, Activity 02 – Investment Promotion of Kawambwa Rubber Project – K536,935,000, this project according to what we know was abandoned in early 90s. Can the hon. Minister shed light if they are revising the project?
Mr Kaingu: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 10, Activity 02 – Investment Promotion of Kawambwa Rubber Project – K536,935,000, this project is required to provide investment promotion in Kawambwa in order to expand the plantation to a minimum of 500 hectares. Yes, it will be taken.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Ms Imbwae: Mr Chairperson, Programme 2, Activity 06 – Creation of Zambia Forestry Commission – Nil, last year was given a K100,100,000. Then, this year there is nothing. I just want the hon. Minister to clarify whether the decision to shove the establishment of the commission because of lack of funds in Government and lack of support from cooperating partners, the ministry has reversed and therefore, we are doing something very different and what is that?
Mr Kaingu: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 2, Activity 06 – Creation of Zambia Forestry Commission – Nil, this activity has been shifted to Programme 08 and it was in my policy statement.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 8, Activity 01 – Creation of Zambia Forestry Commission – K100,000,000, in the Minister’s policy statement, he stated that this year his ministry is hoping to establish the Zambia Forest Commission. Could I find out where the money that was allocated at Programme 2, Activity 06 – K100,100,000, in 2007 to the tune of K100,100,000 was spent.
Secondly, with your permission, Mr Chairperson, the unit total has increased by K300,000,000, and yet, there is a reduction on Programme 9, Activity 03 – Forestry Development Credit Facility – Nil, Can I find out from the hon. Minister, what institution arrangement he has entered into with the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry to ensure that the CE Fund to which this K3,000,000,000 has been transferred shall indeed go to forestry development.
Mr Chairperson, on Programme 7, Activity 04 – National Tree Planting – K108,432,000, in relation with Programme 11, Activity 01 – National Tree Planting – K10,000,000. Last year, a total amount of K108,432,000 was allocated to tree planting. When I raised the question with the then Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources, as to whether this money shall be accessed by all Members of Parliament to promote tree planting in their constituencies. He answered in the affirmative. Can I find out whether the hon. Minister also hopes that he can use the reduced amount of K10,000,000 towards all constituencies in the country.
Mr Kaingu: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 8, Activity – 01 – Creation of Zambia Forestry Commission – K100,000,000, this money was used by the department to hold consultative meeting with stakeholders.
Mr Lubinda: Aah!
Mr Kaingu: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 9, Activity 03 – Forestry Development Credit Facility – Nil, as for the K3,000,000,000 that has gone to the citizen economical empowerment, I have no say to it because the modalities as to how that money and any other monies that have been taken to that activity is not yet passed over to us. As to whether it will be that only money to the Forest Department or there will even be more money from CE to Forest Department, I cannot tell until the modalities are out.
I thank you, Sir.
The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Lubinda, do you want to follow up your question?
Mr Lubinda: No, Mr Chairperson, one of my questions has not been addressed.
The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Minister, he says one of his questions has not been addressed. There was a question on the tree planting.
Mr Kaingu: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 7, Activity 04 – National Tree Planting – K108,432,000, in relation with Programme 11, Activity 01 – National Tree Planting – K10,000,000. What I said in my policy statement is that we have allocated K4.6 billion for tree planting. We have to sit down and know how to administer that money. However, there is also another facility that will be in the Department of Environment, there is a grant that will be given. I have said here, that grant can be assessed by anybody, any Non-Governmental Organisation (NGO) and any interested party. So, if Members of Parliament will be willing, they should be able to approach the Department of Environment and consult on that facility.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Lubinda indicated.
The Deputy Chairperson: Do you want to ask another question or you still want an answer?
Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 7, Activity 04 – National Tree Planting – K108,432,000, in relation with Programme 11, Activity 01 – National Tree Planting – K10,000,000, I have not been given an answer at all.
The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Minister, I think that was the best you could do.
Mr Lubinda: No, Sir, I am sure he can do better than that.
Laughter
The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Minister, can you do better than that?
Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, maybe, I should clarify the question. He might not have followed my question, no.
The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Minister, are you able to add on or what you gave was enough?
Mr Kaingu: Mr Chairperson, may the hon. Member repeat his question.
Laughter
Mr Kaingu: Maybe, I think I am answering him, but it looks like he wants to ask another question. So, maybe, he must be given an opportunity to do so.
Laughter
The Deputy Chairperson: Yes, I give you the opportunity.
Mr Lubinda: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. My question was arising from Programme 7, Activity 04 – National Tree Planting – K108,432,000 and I was relating it to Programme 11, Activity 01 – National Tree Planting – K10,000,000. The question was, his predecessor assured this House that the K108,432,000 would go to all constituencies.
Is the hon. Minister still maintaining that policy statement that the K10,000,000 allocated in this year’s budget will go to all constituencies? That question has not been answered and instead, he has brought in a question of K4 billion …
The Deputy Chairperson: Okay, the question is clear.
Mr Lubinda: With your permission, Sir, …
The Deputy Chairperson: No, the question …
Mr Lubinda: … I would him indicate to this House where this House is supposed to be appropriating the K4 billion grant he is referring to. Where is it so that these hon. Members of Parliament know exactly what he is referring to?
The Deputy Chairperson: You are making your question more difficult for him to answer.
Laughter
Mr Kaingu: Mr Chairperson, the hon. Member should know that I can only get that information from him.
Laughter
Mr Kaingu: I do not know and I can only take it for granted that my predecessor said those words. There is no record to show that he made the statement that …
Mr Shakafuswa: Hear, hear!
Mr Kaingu: … we were going to share the money among the constituencies.
I thank you, Sir.
Vote 68/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Vote 68/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
VOTE 68/04 ─ (Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources ─Planning and Information Department ─ K13,225,025,031).
Ms Imbwae: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on page 620, Programme 10, Activity 01 ─ JPCC Meetings on Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources ─ K80,000,000. There was K104,000,000 last year but this year, the allocation has been reduced to K80,000,000. I know that in the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources there is high profile travelling, meetings and other activities. If this figure is reduced, how will the ministry’s officials manage to travel where they should go?
May I also have clarification on the same page, Programme 11, Activity 02 ─ Monitoring and Evaluation of MTENR Programmes ─ K150,200,000, which is almost reduced by half. Is the ministry not going to monitor any of its programmes?
Interruptions
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
Mr Kaingu: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 10, Activity 01 ─ JPCC Meetings on Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources ─ K80,000,000, this figure has reduced because the meetings that we were holding last year have come to end.
The Deputy Chairperson: What about on Programme 11, Activity 02 ─ Monitoring and Evaluation of MTENR Programmes ─ K150,200,000?
Mr Kaingu: Mr Chairperson, the allocation has reduced due to the non-inclusion of the cost of two 4 x 4 vehicles which were bought in 2007.
I thank you, Sir.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Vote 68/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
VOTE 68/05 ─ (Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources ─ Tourism Development Department─K40,004,942,664).
Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on page 623, Programme 9, Activity 03 ─ Tourism Enterprise Authorisation and Licensing ─K58,500,000. This activity is the one through which the ministry is collecting K4 million per nightclub. Can the hon. Minister explain why the revenue side of the budget does not account for the money that is being collected after asking Parliament to appropriate K58.5 million to the collection exercise?
Mr Kaingu: Mr Chairperson, I do not know where the hon. Member is getting that figure from because it is only in 2007 that we enacted the Tourism and Hospitality Bill and that is where the amount for this levy is. We have not started, therefore, working out modalities of how we are going to collect this levy. So I do not know where he is getting that figure. If he is being charged this amount because he runs a nightclub, I do not think everybody else is paying this much. There should be something wrong he is doing for him to be paying that K4 million.
I thank you, Sir.
Interruptions
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
Vote 68/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
VOTE 68/06 ─ (Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources ─ Environment and Natural Resources Department ─ K20,521,228,678).
Mr Chota (Lubansenshi): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on page 629, Programme 11, Activity 05 ─ Support for the Attainment of Millennium Development Goals at Community Level. Last year there was an allocation of more than K1 billion but there is no allocation this year. Are we saying that we have attained the Millennium Development Goals at this level?
Mr Kaingu: Mr Chairperson, that activity is covered under Programme 11.
I thank you, Sir..
Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, on page 629, Programme 11 – Projects – (PRP), Activity 11 – Supporting Attainment of MDGs at Community Level (13) – K640,000,000. Could the hon. Minister kindly tell us what that activity entails and may he kindly distinguish it with the activities provided for on page 630, Programme 7 – District Community Environmental Committees Support (RP), Activity 03 – Community Micro projects – K680,000,000. What is the distinction between the two and what actual activities are involved in supporting attainment the Millennium Development Goal Level?
Mr Kaingu: Mr Chairperson, Programme 11 – Projects – (PRP), Activity 11 – Supporting Attainment of MDGs at Community Level (13) – K640,000,000. This is a United Nations Development Programme supported project whose objective is to mainstream the environmental issues in all sectors of community development. The Government is expected to contribute in kind.
I thank you, Sir.
Interruptions
VOTE 77/01 – (Ministry of Defence – Headquarters – K981,993,629,583)
The Minister of Defence (Mr Mpombo): Mr Chairperson, it is an honour and with much great pleasure that I stand before this august House to deliver a statement on the Estimates of Expenditure for my ministry for the period January, 2008 to December, 2008.
National Security
My ministry is mandated to preserve, protect and defend the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Republic of Zambia in order to maintain peace and security for all our citizens and other residents. To achieve this, my ministry performs a number of core functions that include patrols throughout various border points, internal joint operations with other security wings of Government, exchange of ideas with other partner countries through joint permanent commissions, war severances participating in international joint operations organised through such organs as the African Union, United Nations and SADC. This interaction or participation in exercise among other things provides for peaceful settlement of disputes and promotion of peace and security as well as encouraging the development of common political, defence and security policies among member states.
The Organisation of African Unity (OAU) which was transformed into the African Union (AU) had its first meeting reign in Lusaka. Through the participation activities of this organ, Zambia has benefited immensely by interaction with member states during which ideas are exchanged. Equally, Zambia has been actively in the promotion of peace on the continent by contributing troops in peace-keeping operation like in the Sudan.
Mr Chairperson, despite the limited resources at its disposal, my ministry wants to refocus efforts on strengthening its ability to carry out its mandate. This entails the following:
Recapitalising of the defence industries that would facilitate the research and development and lead to adequate provision of the necessary military raw materials, equipment and technology required for the defence services to perform their core functions of preserving and protecting the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Republic. Resuscitating these industries would help to easy the dependency on Government operation as they would, to a large extent, be able to generate some income from products they would sell either to the ministry or the general public.
Suffice to say that research and development in defence has led to the provision of commercially viable bi-products such as the desktop computer and the popular brand vehicle the Jeep in America.
The Zambian scenario, however, calls for resourcing for additional funding to finance its recapitalisation as general government revenue needs to be supplemented. This matter is currently seriously being looked into by the Government
We intend to gradually move away from common administrative problems the defence services face and redirect our efforts to the core business of the ministry, that is re-equipping and rearming the defence services with necessary tools through the procurement of modern military equipment, the promotion of specialised technical training of service personnel, undertaking regular recruitment of personnel in order to beef up the existing numbers and few position falling vacant due to deaths resignation and retirement. Equally important is the maintenance of existing equipment.
The above is the long-term plan and focus of my ministry. This is by no means an easy task as for a long time now; the ministry has been constrained in its operations by limited resources. Problems such as settlement of housing allowance arrears, long outstanding general personal claims of personnel, outstanding bills for telephones, electricity, water and other utility services still pose a big challenge.
Worrying as these bills may be, we are greatly relieved by the support that we continue to receive from my colleagues at the Ministry of Finance and National Planning.
Mr Chairperson, with these introductory remarks, I now wish to highlight the salient features of my ministry’s budget for 2008.
Personal Emoluments
Mr Chairperson, the ministry continues to spend over 70 per cent of its budget on personal emoluments. This shows the challenge the Government is still facing in looking for other means of financing the ministry’s operations. This light increase in personal emoluments was as a result of the 16 per cent increase awarded for salaries to military personnel just like other public service workers which were effected in April, 2007.
Military Operations
As earlier stated, the ministry, through the services, shall continue with military patrols of our common border with neighbouring countries notably in Western, North-Western, Luapula and Northern provinces. These will include securing the airspace and guarding strategic national installations.
Recurrent Departmental Charges (RDC)
The increased allocation RDCs shall improve the running of the ministry and the service procurement and supplies of goods and services. The procurement of food rations for the defence services shall continue to be done centrally in order to achieve economy of scale and ensure value for money for purchases met. This system so far is working well and has drastically checked malpractices and other anomalies in the procurement of food rations. The current monthly consumption of food rations is between K6 billion and K6.5 billion. The ministry is working well on administering the bills with our colleagues at the Ministry of Finance and National Planning. The ministry has further earmarked for this year and the following years a programme to refurbish the existing cold rooms in our cantonments so as to better preserve and store food for our service personnel.
Capital Projects
Mr Chairperson, the ministry shall continue to take steps to build housing units for our service personnel which currently are grossly inadequate. The bulk of K20 billion provided in the budget shall go towards these while the balance shall be used on the renovations of offices and other infrastructure damaged in the cantonments by heavy rains recently.
Defence Specialised Equipment
The proposed Budget allocation of K5 billion shall be used to procure specialised military equipment and maintain existing ones, particularly, for the Zambia Army and the Zambia Air Force.
Defence Co-operation with Neighbouring Countries
The ministry shall continue to foster bilateral relations with our neighbours through the holding of joint Permanent Commissions on defence and security in 2008.
Peace Keeping Operations and Observer Missions
The Defence Services shall continue to participate in peace-keeping operations under the auspices of the African Union (AU), Southern African Development Community (SADC) and, indeed, the United Nations (UN) to which Zambia is a member as earlier alluded to. Through these operations, our troops are exposed to different military tactics, use of modern military equipment and generally participate in the promotion of peace.
Training
Mr Chairperson, in this ever-changing world, our troops need to be exposed to modern methods of defending the State. It is through this capacity building that service delivery is improved and efficiency of the ministry attained in case of any possible attack.
Recruitment
The Defence Services shall ensure that equitable employment opportunities continue to exist for all our citizens regardless of gender, race, ethnic group, place of origin, the region or culture and will strictly enforce the policy of zero harassment in places of work. Due to the drop in the number of service personnel through death, resignation and retirement, the ministry has acknowledged the need to gradually recruit new personnel in order to fill vacant positions as well as raise strengths to the required establishment levels.
Gender Advocacy
Mr Chairperson, the Ministry of Defence is committed to the promotion of gender equality and equity among defence personnel. Some amount of money has been allocated to sensitise senior service personnel on gender issues in the work place and the importance of women participation in decision making.
Food Production
Mr Chairperson, my ministry through the Zambia National Service Land Development Branch has continued to contribute to improvement of food production and food security. We aim to increasingly contribute to the attainment of national food security. Additionally, through the Zambia National Service Land Development Branch, the ministry has plans to repair and maintain the existing equipment and shall continue to maintain feeder roads and other infrastructure countrywide.
Mr Chairperson, in conclusion, 2008 marks the year in which the ministry aims to refocus its effort on taking steps to perform its core business or mandate.
Mr Chairperson, I thank you.
Major Chizhyuka (Namwala): Mr Chairperson, I had hoped I would have a bite at the cherry on the earlier item, but I can now have a chance to deal with matters of defence. The military is one area I am quite passionate about. I will not deal with the strategic functions, but rather the peripheral issues regarding the operations of the military in time of peace.
Mr Chairperson, as you know, I grew up in the military, lived through the military and retired through the military.
Hon. Government Member: You retired?
Major Chizhyuka: Oh yes. Do not underrate me.
Laughter
The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Address the Chair.
Major Chizhyuka: My uncles can say things like that.
Laughter
Major Chizhyuka: Mr Chairperson, I would just like to talk briefly about the operations of the military in times of peace. I want to specifically address the issue of the military with respect to the extent to which it assists the civilian authorities with regard to disaster management.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}
Major Chizhyuka: Mr Chairperson, when we trained as trainers of trainers, we had a specific subject on which we taught the military about the key functions of assistance of the civilian authorities in time of peace.
Now, the issue of climate change is a matter that is global and has come to stay. I saw that lady stuck in between a bit of an island and a tree for two days with a baby on her back. Her house was flooded and she needed to have the support of the Government so that she could survive. Our military integrated in the process of evacuation and disaster mitigation should have been available in the shortest possible time to deal with matters of that nature.
Mr Chairperson, it is common knowledge that during the times of disasters, the military hired helicopters to deal with matters of that nature. If it was not the military then the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU) must have hired helicopters. Now, the issue is that this country has got an air force called the Zambia Air Force. If at the hour of need, the DMMU in the Office of the Vice President cannot use the elbowing power of its military to come to the fore and rely on hired equipment from elsewhere, it goes a lot to tell the capability and the capacity of our air force in dealing with these matters. I am talking about an issue associated with a civilian operation – assisting in disasters – which is a minor military operation. The problem may not be yours. It might be associated with the availability of the right equipment to deal with those things. Therefore, as you push your Budget, you must be asking yourself whether you have the equipment with you to deal with those situations because you have a function as a military to support the civilian authorities during times of peace.
The next item is one associated with military road making equipment which, we were told, cost US$25 million from a country called China. At the dawn of the previous Government, equipment came costing US$25 million. I am using a figure that was quoted in the public media which the Chiluba Administration is associated with as having brought for purposes of dam construction and road making costing US$25 million of Zambian money. I have made investigations because as I was explaining the other day when I was asking Hon. Holmes that the Republican President should be more available to hon. Members of Parliament. One of issues that I had wanted to discuss was how we can engage this equipment so that this equipment which cost US$25 million bought for this country can be used for all our constituencies in the country to deal with road infrastructure, dam construction and other related matters.
This equipment was handed over to the Zambia National Service (ZNS) under your ministry, hon. Minister. I have made enquiries and I would like to tell you that my investigations have been in-depth. This equipment requires an enquiry so that we know how the equipment costing US$25 million, which most of us with a backlog of feeder roads that need to be worked on need, disappeared. Most of the time, it is not functional. For what purposes was it bought? Sir, by Zambian standards, US$25 million is a lot of money. I think there is a requirement for you to find out how this equipment has been used.
As I say the things I am saying, there is other equipment coming and, obviously, it will go back to ZNS. We have been told on the Floor of this House that this new equipment is costing US$39 million. Do you want to give this same equipment costing US$39 million to ZNS, while you do not know where the equipment that you bought at US$25 million has gone and how it has been utilised? I am sure, it is issues like this that bother hon. Ministers like the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning because that is money from the Government Treasury.
Now, are you going to give this equipment for road construction to ZNS which has failed to utilise the equipment that was given to them costing US$25 million? I am talking about an organisation that I know very well. I would like to ask if this equipment which we so badly need, because we have a common problem associated with roads, is going to be under the Ministry of Defence. I think the Government should create a company or a parastatal to be in charge of that equipment because US$39 million is a lot of money.
Sir, other companies are formed on less moneys than that. It would be appreciable that we use or form another Government company which will be more accountable and live up to the expectations of the Zambians so that we can deal with matters of dam construction because we are talking about climate change. We can also deal with matters associated with our roads so that the councils under the Ministry of Local Government and Housing can be much more effective. This is my submission for the Ministry of Defence. While I still have some four minutes, …
Laughter
Major Chizhyuka: … let me comment on the issue of climate change with respect to that woman who was caught in a flood. The Government’s position is that the woman must be evacuated to a higher land. Now, I ask the question, you, our colleagues, are saying that the woman must be evacuated by Hon. Mpombo’s forces to dry land because in this country, Zambia, the floods were in Southern Province and parts of Central Province, where the hon. Minister of Home Affairs (Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha) came from. I saw him the other day on television. Which dry land is this woman going to be evacuated to? Where are you going to take her, Hon. Mpombo, with your soldiers because the dry land has been occupied by a foreigner?
Laughter
Major Chizhyuka: I have explained that the dry land has been occupied by a foreigner who owns 120,000 hectares. In this House, we sit with the Vice-President of the Republic of Zambia, but I am sure that he does not even have 10 hectares of land.
Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!
Major Chizhyuka: The foreigner has 120,000 hectares while the Vice-President has nothing.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Major Chizhyuka: Where are you going to take that woman? Are you going to ‘hike’ her from one tree to another …
Laughter
Major Chizhyuka: … or you will do it like the people of Sianjalika where Hon. Magande comes from? That is where the sun sets at sixteen hours; where they were shunted after they were removed from …
Laughter
Major Chizhyuka: … Lake Kariba.
Mr Magande: On a point of order, Sir.
Laughter
Major Chizhyuka: The solution is with the hon. Minister of Defence and the hon. Minister of Lands. This is a simple decision. Is it difficult to talk to a foreigner who has been on your land for 102 years? Say it to him, in his face, “You have stayed for 102 years and you have made enough profit on our land. We have also done an inventory and discovered that there is not a single Zambian with a similar piece of land in your country of origin. We think that instead of 120,000 hectares since you seem to be a good farmer, why can you not have 60 hectares?”
Laughter
Major Chizhyuka: This will enable the Vice-President, Hon. Magande and others to have pieces of land in their own country.
Laughter
Major Chizhyuka: Sir, even those people who are seeing the sun set at sixteen hundred hours can get pieces of land in areas where the sun sets …
The Deputy Chairperson: Order, order, Major!
Laughter
The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I have been trying to correlate what you are discussing with the Ministry of Defence, but I am having difficulties. Maybe, you can make it clearer. Can you, continue, please.
Major Chizhyuka: I thank you, Mr Chairperson.
The issue is about that woman …
Laughter
Major Chizhyuka: … with a baby on her back.
Interruptions
Major Chizhyuka: Her motherland is flooded and the hon. Minister of Defence must evacuate her. To where?
Laughter
Major Chizhyuka: Meanwhile, that white man, because very soon all of you will start getting your land from white people …
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
Laughter
The Deputy Chairperson: Order, as Chairperson, I listened very carefully and when you are talking about a foreigner, I thought you could continue because it has no connotation of race, but now you are coming to “that white man,” you know there is a racial undertone. Please, put it in another way, not having a racial connotation. Can you continue, please.
Interruptions
Major Chizhyuka: That man whose father we do not know …
Laughter
Major Chizhyuka: … meanwhile, is going to sell the land. Ask Hon. Katuka, Mr Chairperson, to bring the newspaper where a piece of land which he got at thirteen shillings is now being sold at K93 million per hectare.
Interruptions
Major Chizhyuka: Zambian land!
Interruptions
Major Chizhyuka: Tomorrow, we will bring that paper so that we can lay it on the Table…
Laughter
Major Chizhyuka: This is your country. You must go and buy it. Where will that woman go?
The Deputy Chairperson: Order, order!
Major Chizhyuka: I thank you, Chairperson.
Laughter
Mr Kasongo (Bangweulu): Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank you for giving me this opportunity to complement first of all, the hon. Minister of Defence who has maintained a very low profile in the Ministry of Defence. By nature, hon. Ministers of Defence are not supposed be held and I commend him highly.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Kasongo: Secondly, allow me to salute our defence personnel for having conducted themselves professionally for forty-three years now and we are moving into the forty-fourth year.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Kasongo: Sir, they deserve our support and encouragement in order for them to continue to translate the vision of this country into action in line with their core-business. It is important that they also have shown to us that they are loyal and hardworking. Therefore, they should be supported not only by word of mouth but by action. In this context, I would like to urge the hon. Minister of Defence to continue to fight for better conditions of service for our defence personnel.
Sir, there has always been a misconception that when the country is at peace, those who are responsible for maintaining the same peace in the country should be found wanting. That is a misconception. Even when there is peace in the country, we should continue to support those who are responsible for maintaining that peace in the country. Accordingly, you should continue to fight for the best conditions of service for the defence personnel. This is the best way of reciprocating the good performance of our defence personnel.
Mr Chairperson, for example, I was happy when I saw a clip which showed you visiting a number of our homes on television. You were on the Copperbelt and the message was very clear that the intention of your ministry and the Government of the day is to ensure that you improve the conditions of service for our defence personnel.
Sir, housing is keying. One of the motivating factors is to continue to extract excellent services from the same defence personnel. I am saying so because I was able to look at the same initiative made and I saw that you were accompanied by your colleague, who is your neighbour, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning. I think he was also able to see for himself the type of houses in which our soldiers live. That was very commendable. It is better to be practical.
Sir, when you are in peace, it does not mean that we should not continue to modernize our equipment. Society is dynamic.
Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!
Mr Kasongo: What we did for our military personnel yesterday may be declared redundant today. You have to make sure that the Budget that is always initiated by our defence personnel is supported 100 per cent. They are the people on the ground, who understand changes in technology in our country and also in the entire world.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Kasongo: Mr Chairperson, therefore, we are supposed to be supporting the same effort. You should not be persuaded by the people who normally create the impression that because Zambia is at peace, then we cannot continue to spend money even on our own equipment. You have to stand up and defend the same institution. There is nowhere in the world, even in America where the defence personnel are allowed to use outdated equipment. You never know what happens. Tomorrow, you may have a neighbour that may create problems in your own country. Therefore, how do you react to the same hostile environment that may be created by your neighbour? You have to be equipped sufficiently.
Sir, in this regard, I would like to strengthen your voice all the time. I know that you have adopted that quiet diplomacy but please, make it be more to the doubting Thomases that even in times of peace, our defence personnel is supposed to be equipped with modern facilities. That is the only way they can defend our country to the best of their ability.
Sir, a lot of people have said that because we are not at war, there is no need for the defence personnel to continue recruiting to beef up the current personnel in our defence forces. You have to cancel that misconception. You are aware that in fact, manpower wasted has even permeated the defence personnel. The only way you can survive as a nation is to ensure that you have personnel who will be ready to defend our country even at short notice. Recruitment exercise must be a continuous process. You should ignore all those utterances that may sway you from the current arrangement.
Mr Chairperson, we would like to encourage you to continue beefing up our personnel because a moment you will create a deficit in the same institution, I am afraid, the enemy may come, attack and finish you within a short time. You should always be prepared. Do not create gaps in the manpower establishment of our defence personnel. That is very dangerous. You should continue doing the same. The moment you will receive humble request from our defence personnel about the need to recruit additional personnel, give that request a very immediate political stamp. It is for our benefit as a nation and not for them as individuals.
Sir, whatever they do, is done on behalf of the Zambian people. We should know that. Their interest is to defend mother Zambia and nothing else. They have made that pledge and goal that they are dead persons and they are ready to be called upon anytime to defend our country. They are very disciplined but we should continue supporting them. You should make sure that you to attend to that Budget as quickly as possible.
Sir, military personnel are supposed to conduct operations everyday, every minute and every hour. They are supposed to be funded in order for them to undertake such exercises. They have to know what is happening in Shangombo and in the entire country. Therefore, they can only be current with what is obtaining in our country when they are funded sufficiently in order for them to be conducting these operations. I do not want to go into details. You know how the institution operates. They have to be supported.
Mr Chairperson, in a nutshell, I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister of Defence to continue to soldier on and support our personnel so that they can be able to defend our country in line with their core-business.
Thank you, Sir.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Milupi (Luena): Mr Chairperson, thank you for allowing me a chance to debate on these Estimates for the Ministry of Defence. You will have noticed the sober mood in which the House is when debating on this very serious subject. Defence applies to each and every Zambian. It is on the basis of defence that we continue to exist as a country. It is…
The Deputy Chairperson: Order! You will notice that I stood up before 1815 hours. I just want to use this short time to appeal to hon. Members that it is becoming a practice for us to come late after tea break. Can we please be on time.
Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.{mospagebreak}
[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the Chair]
The Deputy Chairperson: You deserve commendation for being punctual today.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Milupi: Mr Chairperson, when business was suspended, briefly, I was saying that it is on the basis of our Defence Forces that we exist as a nation. It is on the same basis that we exist as a democracy. Therefore, it is timely to thank our men and women in uniform for all the sacrifices that they carry out on behalf of this nation.
Mr Sing’ombe: Hear, hear!
Mr Milupi: Mr Chairperson, may I also remind the House that our Defence Forces, Zambia Army, Zambia Air force (ZAF) and Zambia National Service (ZNS) are fully zambianised because all the duties are carried out by our own indigenous people. That is commendable. Therefore, other sectors have a lot to learn to from them. If our Defence Forces can Zambianise themselves, why not indeed, the mining industry?
Mr Chairperson, when you look at the Estimates, it brings to the fore the issue that I normally raise in this House, the inadequacy of the totality of our Budget. The other day, I was saying to the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning outside this Chamber that perhaps, there is need to find time in this House to focus on debating the various Heads of the Revenue side, so that together we can grow this Budget. As long as it remains at the levels that it is at, we shall the inadequacy in our Expenditure levels.
The hon. Minister of Defence was apt when he lamented the fact the 70 per cent of the Ministry of Defence budget was emoluments and salaries. This in itself is a serious admission. In fact if you look at the substance of the figures, it is worse than that. It is more than 70 per cent. Granted, he did say over 70 per cent so even 100 per cent is over 70 per cent. However, he would have been more accurate if he had said that over 90 per cent of the Estimates in the Yellow Book for the Ministry of defence are earmarked for salaries and emoluments.
Mr Chairperson, this is why in my opening speech, I said that matters that we are discussing on this Ministry are serious matters and they must be looked at in a somber manner.
The total budget for this Ministry of Defence is just under K982 billion. It is an increase from K800 billion that we had last year. However, if you look at emoluments, the Military Intelligence has been allocated K119 billion, ZNS has been allocated K126 billion, ZAF has been allocated K242 billion, Zambia Army has been allocated K375 and the headquarters has been allocated K25 billion. The total of these emoluments is K887 billion.
The other day, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning was boasting about his prowess in mathematics.
Laughter
Mr Milupi: Mr Chairperson, K887 billion over K982 billion is lightly over 90 per cent. Now, as a country, if we are to benefit, continue to enjoy the peace that we have enjoyed for so many years and advance into the future, there is need to ensure that more money is allocated to our Defence Forces …
Mr Sing’ombe: Hear, hear!
Mr Milupi: …so that they can continue to protect us. For how else can they do it with K95 billion, which remains if you take K887 billion for emoluments from the total budget of K982 billion. The figure that remains is K95 billion and it is out of this figure they have to carry out administration work, exercises, training and so many other things. Where does the capital come from?
Mr Sing’ombe: Akuna masheleng.
Mr Milupi: It is a capital on which you modernise your Defence forces. It on capital expenditure that you buy new aircraft, fighter jets, tanks, armoured vehicles and weaponry that will be required to defend this country. However, it is only 10 per cent of the budget that remains to buy all these things. What level of pressure are we putting on the men and women in uniform to continue to defend us?
Mr Sing’ombe: Unbearable.
Mr Milupi: Is it any wonder, therefore, that Hon. Kasongo referred to the fact that training should be continuous. In other words, every year we must have recruits. However, there are certain years that we do not have recruits and our training programmes in our defence forces are affected. We can do better than we are doing right now.
Defence for this nation is much too serious an issue to be treated in the manner that we are treating it. However, again, the issue now is the size of our cake. Even if we were to say increase from K982 billion, which is what has been allocated to defence, what do we increase it to? Which item are we going to reduce on?
Mr Chairperson, already in agriculture, we are saying it should have been 10 per cent. In health and education, we are saying the allocation should have been more. We want more schools. Since the hon. Minister brought this Budget to this House, we are spending time debating the Expenditure, quarreling over sharing a little cake, when the opposite should have been the case. We are mandated by the various people that sent us here to scrutinise where else we could get the money so that instead of K14,476 trillion, we ought be talking about K30 trillion or K40 trillion. Then it would have been much better to share it.
Mr Chairperson, on this side of the House, we say that there are opportunities in mines that must be followed through. If there are any moves to make outside agreements to let people off the hook, we say no because we need that money for areas like defence and agriculture. That is why when we look at the vast potential that resides in agriculture that should have been developed to contribute significantly to this side of this budget, we say that we are wasting time because year in out year out we are paying lip service.
It is on things like agriculture properly developed, that we can have a significant contribution to the size of this budget.
Mr Chairperson, it is on issues like tourism with that vast potential where we can again increase our revenue base. However, if you look at the budget that we are budgeting just before this one, the total budget for tourism has been reduced. These are the economic ministries that we should all focus on to ensure we get more money.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Milupi: Even us who are debating this for the Ministry of Defence, it is time to remind our Minister of Finance and National Planning that for next year, we expect that there will be a significant improvement in the size of the budget. Not long ago, if you looked at the Defence ministries or our Defence forces, they used to have joint exercises. They used to have military tattoos. I was at school here in Lusaka, at secondary school, when we used to go to the show grounds and watch the beauty of a military tattoo. Alas, that is no more.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Milupi: It was at that time that we used to watch even the uniforms that they used to wear.
Mr Munaile: Cadets.
Mr Milupi: The cadets that the other Members are talking about, the smartness of a man and woman in uniform. That is no more.
Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!
Mr Milupi: When you go to the Zambia Defence College, you can lament when you see what is going on.
Hon. Government Member interjected.
Mr Milupi: This is not to blame you. I am saying they have identified where the problem is. It is not lack of the capacity. It is because we are dealing with a small budget. Where you lack capacity is the ability to grow that budget and we can help you.
Mr Muntanga: Indeed.
Mr Milupi: With that I thank you, Mr Chairperson.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Bwalya (Chifubu): Mr Chairperson, to start with I would like to commend my Commander, Hon. Major Chizhyuka, …
Laughter
Mr Bwalya: … who had ably lamented on whatever I wanted to put forward, but nevertheless, I support the Vote on the Floor of this House.
Mr Chairperson, through you, I would like to give some advice to the hon. Minister of Defence as Major Chizhyuka earlier lamented, where he said we are at peace. Yes, we are at peace now. In Zambia Army, we have a unit which is called One Engineering Regiment. This unit can ably help the Government or supplement the Government’s efforts. At that unit, we have men and women with different trades who are specialised in most of the fields. We have a plant section there. In the First Republic, that plant section was equipped with graders, caterpillars and all the plant equipment was there.
Mr Chairperson, I remember in 1984 when we had all the bridges washed away in Muyombe, Isoka, that unit was deployed there. What that unit did there is that they constructed more than 71 improvised bridges. That, really, helped the people of Muyombe. Today, you find that a Member of Parliament would stand up in this House complaining of, maybe, the relief food that it has not been ferried to his area because of floods, bad roads and so on. It is at One Engineering Regiment where we had all the equipment. Therefore, the matter of feeder roads we are talking about today was a very simple job for that unit.
Hon. Opposition Members: Yes.
Mr Bwalya: Mr Chairperson, we had amphibian vehicles which could ferry more than 200 bags of maize at once. That equipment could move both on land and water, but today, it is a shame. If you went to Mufulira, that equipment is no more. It is outdated. You can talk of watermanship. At Kalongola, we had a military pontoon …
Mr Sichilima: On a point of order, Sir.
Hon. Opposition Members: Jealous.
The Deputy Chairperson: No, Order! I will not grant that point of order. This is because you are not doing what you should do. When I keep quiet, it does not mean I have not heard. Now, you are interjecting and so on, you are distracting attention.
Can you continue, please.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! Hammer!
Mr Bwalya: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. In the First Republic we had a military pontoon at Kalongola in Western Province and in Sesheke District. These two pieces of equipment used to help the civilians. Whenever that Government pontoon, maybe, did not work, we used the equipment for the army. Today, you find that people are complaining that the relief food cannot reach their places. Let us review the role of One Engineering Regiment. If that unit is well equipped and well motivated, you will find that some of these complaints which we are talking about today, will be a thing of the past.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Bwalya: Mr Chairperson, through you, I also want to advise my good hon. Minister of Defence that we must not take peace for granted. Most of the equipment in most of these Zambia Army Barracks are outdated. It is high time we thought of re-equipping these units with good equipment. Moreover, before we give them new or modern equipment, let us first put up, maybe, wall fences and structures where these things can be stored.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Bwalya: Today, Mr Chairperson, sometimes, I feel, somehow, as if I am not in Zambia. You find that a barrack has a gate quite okey, but there is no fence.
Mr Muntanga: Yes.
Laughter
Hon. Opposition Members: Hammer!
Mr Bwalya: Mr Chairperson, it creates a very bad picture especially to these people who come from other countries. Just imagine, maybe, a person is passing by Kalewa Barracks and a soldier is being punished at the Guard Room. Even children who are going to school stop and start watching how that soldier is being punished.
Mr D. Mwila: Yes, shame!
Mr Bwalya: It is not in order. For me, I would like to advise the hon. Minister, through you, Mr Chairperson, that let us try and put up wall fences in all the barracks ...
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Bwalya: … because we never know with these people who come from different countries. Some may just be spies.
Hon. Opposition Members: Chinese.
Mr Bwalya: One day, they would be passing by the barrack, then, you do not know what he is aiming at. Maybe, they are just recording or want to see whatever you have in that barrack. So, it is important that we make sure that we put our equipment and soldiers in enclosures.
Lastly, Mr Chairperson, I would want to talk about the United Nations Peace Keeping Missions. To start with, let me commend my brother, Hon. B. Y. Mwila for having introduced the Peace Keeping Missions which we are enjoying today.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Bwalya: Mr Chairperson, on 7th July, 1994, if I am not mistaken, President Chiluba ordered that 50 per cent of the soldiers’ earnings …
Mr Kunda, SC: On a point of order, Sir.
The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.
Mr Kunda, SC: Mr Chairperson, I have given information before in this House on this particular issue and I said that the remuneration of soldiers on peace-keeping missions is a matter which is in court. In fact, there are several court cases to that effect. Is the hon. Member in order to be debating along the lines that he is debating? I need your ruling, Sir.
The Deputy Chairperson: What that means, really, is that the issue is sub judice. So, can you continue but take that point of order into account.
Mr Bwalya: Mr Chairperson, sometime back, one hon. Member stood on the Floor of this House and asked the hon. Minister of Defence whether the Ministry of Defence generates revenue or contributes anything to the Government. The hon. Minister said that the ministry does not because it is not a profit making institution. However, when you go to the Zambia National Service, there is some equipment there and in order to use it, you have to pay. I do not know where the money that the Zambia National Service collects goes.
Mr D. Mwila: Nikwisa?
Mr Bwalya: The equipment is charged per hour and if you have to construct, for example, a dam, you will be charged accordingly. If you want to construct a small road, the charge is the same. So it does not make sense to me because as far as I know, the Zambia Defence Forces are also a profit making institutions.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Bwalya: Sir, the army regiment in Mufulira has some equipment which is hired by the mines.
Mr D. Mwila: So where is the money?
Mr Bwalya: We do not know where that money goes. Let us give those soldiers in Mufulira an amount from the construction works that they carry out. We have bricklayers and all other trades there. Why is the Government wasting a lot of money hiring private contractors? Construction works can be done by that army regiment because right now we are at peace.
So with these few remarks, I thank you, Sir.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mpombo: Mr Chairperson, I am very grateful for the contributions that have been made on the Floor of this House.
Interruptions
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
Mr Mpombo: I want to begin by responding to the contributions by Major Chizhyuka. I always admire Hon. Chizhyuka’s encyclopedic knowledge …
Laughter
Mr Mpombo: … on these issues. I want to assure him that the army or defence forces will continue to play their rightful role in disaster mitigation like we have seen in past disasters like the Nkalamabwe Bridge accident, where the army moved in swiftly to attend to the situation and, therefore, we will continue to do that. The hon. Member also talked about capacity building. This is a matter which is very dear to our hearts and we are doing every thing to ensure that we are on track because there is nothing that we can do without capacity building for our soldiers.
With regard to the Zambia National Service, yes there was equipment worth US$25 million that was received four years ago and it is being used in road and bridge construction. However, I want to say that the next consignment of US$40 million will not go to the army but, like the Government has announced, it will go to provincial centres in the country.
Mr Chairperson, Major Chizhyuka is a nationalist and I admire his stand but on the land issue, I want to say that if the Government embarks on reckless land redistribution exercise, this Government will reap a banquet of political and economic consequences …
Laughter
Mr Mpombo: … because it will attract international condemnation and our economy is not that strong to withstand whatever economic sanctions that may be applied. It may also be misconstrued that Zambia is engaged in reverse racism. So, we want to maintain and respect the Constitution but in terms of buying land, I think the best policy is “willing seller, willing buyer” so that we do not get into any quagmire.
Laughter
Mr Mpombo: I now move to Hon. Kasongo’s comments and I want to thank him very much as I am extremely humbled by his kind words. On recruitment, his advice is very timely and he has also talked about the fallacy that when we are in times of peace, we should not do anything. In times of peace is when our soldiers should be training for war. So, he has raised very important points and we appreciate his kind sentiments on our gallant soldiers.
Mr Chairperson, on accommodation, without any form of Government assurance, I want to say that last week we had a meeting with Barclays Bank. A team from the bank came to visit our offices to see how Barclays Bank would participate in the construction of houses for our soldiers. However, these are matters that we discussed and at an appropriate time, this discussion will be referred to the Ministry of Finance and National Planning for guidance. So, we do believe this is a very important issue because we are uncomfortable with our soldiers living among the civilian population. Therefore, I want to say thank you very much for those kind words.
I also want to thank Hon. Milupi for his ‘presidential’ and …
Laughter
Mr Mpombo: … solid support. We are actually speaking the same tune or singing from the same hymn book.
Laughter
Mr Mpombo: In response to Hon. Bwalya, I want to thank him for his comments and I want to say that the issue if infrastructure development is very important. We want to attend to issues like the ones he raised concerning Kalewa Barracks. Building a wall fence there is a priority as well as the road network within the camps. Those are issues we want to attend to but we certainly want to do so in a proper manner rather than tinkering around with reforms.
Laughter
Mr Mpombo: In conclusion, I want to take off my hat to all the hon. Members who have passionately contributed to this debate.
I thank you, Sir.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
VOTE 77/01 ─ (Ministry of Defence ─ Headquarters ─ K150,080,916,100).
Ms Imbwae: Mr Chairperson, may I have just two small clarifications from the hon. Minister. Firstly, on …
Interruptions
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
Ms Imbwae: … page 644, Programme 03, Activity 05 ─ Staff College. Last year, there was K1,435,171,526 allocated to this very important college but now we do not have anything. May I know what is going to happen?
Then on page 645 the hon. Minister spoke very clearly about his support to gender. Therefore, I draw his attention to Programme 7, Activity 04 – Training for Women Managers, last year there was a K13,752,347 but this year, there is nothing. Are the managers not going to be trained or there is another provision hidden somewhere. May I be helped?
The Deputy Minister of Defence (Mr Akakandelwa): Mr Chairperson, on Staff College we have created a separate budget line for it and it will be seen as we progress. So, it is not actually forgotten but that it is now appearing under its own budget line. The activities under Training for Women Managers were undertaken in 2007.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, page 644, on Programme 2, Activity 02 – Recreation – K193,471,376. Could I know from the hon. Minister why there is close to K100 million reduction in the provision for recreation for the Ministry of Defence which is supposed to provide for all wings of defence; and
Secondly, on the same Programme 2, Activity 10 – Integrity Promotion – K47,409,773. Why is there a reduction of more than K200 million from K306,953,287 to only K47,409,773 and with your permission, on page 635 Programme 05 – Procurement and Supplies Unit. Could the hon. Minister explain the difference between Activity 01 – Procurement of Foods Rations for the Defence Force and ZNS – K1,487,605,227 and Activity 04 – Stock Replenishing – K1,925,969,415.
Mr Akakandelwa: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 2, Activity 02 – Recreation – K193,471,376, and Programme 2, Activity 10 – Integrity Promotion – K47,409,773. The reduction in sporting and health activities is part of the contribution from the loan revolving fund. On integrity, the allocation is due to a number of publicity and awareness already done. So, there is no need to put in more money.
Thank you, Sir.
The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Magande): Mr Chairperson,
Laughter
Mr Magande: Mr Chairperson, I realised that Hon. Lubinda is so tensed up he thinks we do not know these issues. So, I wanted him to do a bit of laughing.
Laughter
Mr Magande: On Programme 5, Activity 01 – Procurement of Food Rations for Defence Force and ZNS – K1,487,605,227, that is for food, and Activity 04 – Stocks Replenishing – K1,925,969,415, are other issues like stationery, ball points and so on.. That is the difference,
Mr Lubinda can continue laughing.
I thank you, Sir.
Laughter
VOTE 77/02 – (Ministry of Defence – Zambia army – K409,147,310,593)
Mr Chota (Lubansenshi): Mr Chairperson, page 648, on Programme 7, Activity 01 – Camp Health Services – K1,570,537,800. Mr Chairperson, I am wondering because there has been so much improvement in camp health services, but the budget has been reduced by K244,972.00. Could I have a clarification on this. Are we improving in our medical services?
The Minister of Defence (Mr Mpombo): Mr Chairperson, on Programme 7, Activity 01 – Camp Health Services – K1,570,537,800. The figures are almost the same, it is only K200,000. The drop is negligible.
Mr Lubinda: K200,000?
Mr Chota: Mr Chairperson, what I am saying is that, has there been any improvement in the services because we have reduced this by K244,972? I just wanted a clarification hon. Minister.
Mr Mpombo: Mr Chairperson, yes, indeed. There has been some improvement.
I thank you, Sir.
Laughter
Mr C. K. B. Banda SC (Chasefu): Mr Chairperson, on page 648, Programme 2, Activity 05 – Legal Fees – K729,000,000. We know that the Attorney-General represents all Government departments, including the Army. May we get clarification where this legal fees is payable to.
Mr Akakandelwa: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 2, Activity 05 – Legal Fees – K729,000,000. This provision is required to take up for legal fees that include consultancies, studies and other technical assistance.
I thank you, Sir,
Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Mr Chairperson, page 650, Programme 2, Activity 03 – House Rentals – K2,719,200,000. Last year’s allocation was only K720,253,440. Could the hon. Minister explain this phenomenal increment from K720,253,440 to K2,719,200,000.
Mr Akakandelwa: Mr Chairperson, regarding Programme 2 Activity 03 – House Rentals – K2,719,200,000, this amount is not even enough to meet the demands for rentals for our officers. This K720,253,440 was a nominal figure and what we need is more than K2,719,200,000 and this is why we are embarking on the construction of housing for our soldiers.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Lubinda: I seek clarification on Programme 5, Activity 09 – Home Guard and School Cadets – K49,984,000. This activity has an allocation of less than K50 million for both the Home Guard and the School Cadet Programme. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister how many uniforms for school Cadets only he hopes to procure under this programme and how many schools they will support under the School Cadet Programme with a paltry allocation of K50 million.
Mr Akakandelwa: Mr Chairman, regarding Programme 5, Activity 09 – Home Guards and Schools Cadets – K49,984,000, this provision has nothing to do with what he is talking about. In fact, it is required to cater for fuel, lubricants and other provisions like allowances.
I thank you, Sir.
Vote 77/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
VOTE 77/03 – (The Ministry of Defence – The Zambia Air Force – K272,049,814,226).
Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Mr Chairman, I seek clarification on Programme 7, Activity 01 – Procurement – K1,968,633,240. I note that last year, we had K3,366,212,201 and the reduction is about K1.9 billion. Can the hon. Minister explain?
Mr Akakandelwa: Mr Chairperson, regarding Programme 7, Activity 01– Procurement – K1,968, 633,240, the reduction is because we had a supplementary for K32,366,212,200 and the hon. Member was part and parcel of that Supplementary Budget debate.
I thank you, Sir.
Vote 77/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
VOTE 77/04 – (The Ministry of Defence – Zambia National Service – K138,474,147,081).
Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): I seek clarification on Programme 8, Activity 01 – Gender in Development – K11,000,000. I would like to find out what is involved in this Gender Development because the amount is so little.
Mr Akakandelwa: Mr Chairperson, regarding Programme 8, Activity 01 – Gender in Development – K11,000,000, the provision is a new programme to sensitise service personnel on gender.
I thank you, Sir.
Dr Machungwa: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 5, Activity 01 – Youth Empowerment Training – K134,209,290. Which youths are these?
Mr Akakandelwa: Mr Chairperson, regarding Programme 5, Activity 01 – Youth Empowerment Training – K134,209,290, the provision is meant for administrative expenses incurred while conducting training.
I thank you, Sir.
Interruptions
The Deputy Chairman: You have answered, hon. Minister. What is that dialogue going on there? The answer has been given and I do not see why there should be a dialogue.
Mr Mwila: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 2, Activity 01– Office Administration – K498,738,306. Last year, we had Budgeted for K309,325,684 and we had a Supplementary Budget of K6,000,000,000 which came to K6,309,325,684. Why should we have such a reduction where we have budgeted for a lower figure which is K498,738,306? We might have another supplementary. I need an explanation
Mr Akakandelwa: Mr Chairperson, Programme 2, Activity 01– Office Administration – K498,738,306. This provision is for the purchase of office material such as stationery and public services such as ceremonies. The increase was due to high demand on administrative costs.
I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}
Mr C. K. B. Banda SC: I seek clarification on page 653, Programme 2, Activity 01– Office Administration – K498,738,306 and Programme 7 Activity 01 – Office Management – K621,853,875. I would like to know the difference between the two and why the substantial increase?
Mr Akakandelwa: Mr Chairperson, did he say 563 or 653?
The Deputy Chairperson: He said 653.
Mr Akakandelwa: Mr Chairperson, I am sorry I did not get what he said.
The Deputy Chairperson: Mr Banda, can you repeat the question. I think let us pay attention when questions are being asked. Can you rephrase your question?
Mr C. K. B. Banda SC: I seek clarification on Programme 2, Activity 01– Office Administration – K498,738,306 and Programme 7 Activity 01 – Office Management – K621,853,875. The first question is, what is the difference between Office Administration and Office Management? The second is, why the substantial increase under Programme 7, Activity 01 – Office Administration – K498,738,306 from K437,685,295 to K621,853,875.
Mr Akakandelwa: Mr Chairperson, Programme 2, Activity 01– Office Administration – K498,738,306, this is a provision required for the purchase of office material and stationery such as pens and paper and other services like public functions such as ceremonies under Headquarters. Programme 7, Activity 01 – Office Management – K621,853,875 is for the purchase of office material like accommodation and maintenance of buildings in camps, under logistics.
The Deputy Chairperson: The difference between the two?
Mr Akakandelwa: Mr Chairperson, these are two different situations as there are more people in camps than at the headquarters. That, then, will definitely bring about the difference.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Chimbaka: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 2, Activity 01 – Office Administration – K498,738,306. The budget provision for last year was K309,325,684 and a supplementary budget of K6,000,000,000. What propelled this huge supplement?
The Deputy Chairperson: The answer was given because there was a question to that effect.
Vote 77/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Vote 77/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Vote 77/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Vote 77/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Vote 77/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Vote 77/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
VOTE 78/01 (Zambia Security Intelligence Services - Office of the President – K209,069,193,507).
The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, I rise to present the Estimates of Expenditure for the Zambia Security Intelligence Service for this year, 2008. In doing so, allow me to remind the august House that the Zambia Security Intelligence Service is established by Act No. 14 of 1998.
By this Act, the Zambia Security Intelligence Service is responsible for the security of the Republic and its people and is, therefore, charged with the task of being the principal advisor to the Government on matters of security.
The specific functions of the service are fourfold, namely:
(a) to protect the people and the Republic against threats to national security, acts of espionage, subversion, sabotage, terrorism, economic crimes and acts intended to overthrow or undermine a legitimate Government by use of arms or other violent means;
(b) to collect, collage and evaluate intelligence relevant to the security or interests of the republic;
(c) to co-ordinate and oversee activities relating to security and intelligence of any Ministry or department of Government, the armed forces and police service; and
(d) to advise the Government, public bodies, institutions and statutory bodies or corporations on the protection for vital installations classified documents.
Sir, these functions are embodied in their mission statement which is “To provide accurate and timely intelligence on threats to national security in order to protect the Constitution and economic well being of Zambia.”
Mr Chairperson, by this legal mandate, the service is the national institution strategic to Zambia’s security. It is, therefore, important that we give this institution the necessary support it deserves to enable it fulfil its mandate.
As we support this Vote, we need to appreciate that security is a costly, but priceless commodity. As the custodian of our national security, the Zambia Security Intelligence Service is shouldering this onerous and noble task, with utmost professionalism and competence.
Programmes for this year, 2008
Sir, as we consider the Budget for the Zambia Security Intelligence Service for this year, it is important for us to appreciate and take stock of the threats facing our country and indeed, the Zambia Security Intelligence Service today. We should bear in mind that security is at the core of the wellbeing of every nation. Without security, no personal or national aspirations can be realised.
Our country is firmly on the road to consolidation of the commendable gains we have attained in the political, socio-economic and other areas of human development and therefore, requires stability to forge ahead to great prosperity as a middle income country of the world.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
The Vice-President: Sir, security threats are complex and dynamic in a nature. Therefore, I would like to draw the attention of the House to the following assessment of threats currently facing our country.
The Challenge to Sustain Peace and Stability
Mr Chairperson, our country has enjoyed peace and stability for many years. This has not been attained by chance. Peace has obtained in our country because the people of Zambia have continually desired peace and have united over the years to thwart any attempts to create civil strife. It is therefore, of utmost importance that we remain united and firmly committed in supporting institutions that foster this unity such as the Zambia Security Intelligence Service.
Sir, we all know that the democracy in Zambia continues to be under threat by some elements that have tried to create artificial and non-existent crisis and tensions in our country. However, the service has remained vigilant and alive to these attempts to destabilise the country. The service is also aware that the road ahead will still be rocky as the agents of destabilisation will continue to be active.
Sir, as we are all aware, it is the duty and constitutional mandate of the Service to be the first line of defence for our country. The service will therefore, continue to monitor and negate any attempts to destabilise this nation.
Mr Chairperson, there are also threats to our hard-won economic prosperity that we have struggled so hard to achieve and which has in part resulted in an influx of investors to our country. The discovery of natural gases and oil as well as other minerals, including uranium, has made Zambia an attractive investment destination which might also attract the not so well meaning interested persons or groups.
Sir, these resources must be safeguarded and harnessed in such a way as to bring benefits to the general citizenry. In addition, our recent decision to change the tax regime in the Mining Sector has raised some eyebrows amongst some of our cooperating partners and the mining houses in particular. Yet, we have a responsibility to ensure that our valued investors do not just reap huge benefits at the expense of the owners of these natural resources, who are the Zambian people.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, Zambia is considered as a low risk country and has consequently attracted huge investment from a number of countries which are now competing for the country’s natural resources. The competition for access and control of these resources could prove detrimental to the overall benefit of the country, if left unchecked. Given the above scenario, Zambia could be a fertile ground for conflicts engineered by foreign forces to further their economic interests.
Sir, we should acknowledge that the access and control of the resources can be complex and it is the responsibility of specialised agencies such as the Zambia Security Intelligence Service to monitor and negate such activities.
Mr Chairperson, furthermore, the transnational threat of International Terrorism has become a threat of world wide dimensions. The enactment of the Anti-Terrorism Act in 2007, which provides specific guidelines to the service and other security organisations on how to effectively monitor and negate this threat, has a serious cost implications for its implementation.
Mr Chairperson, it is expected that the threat of terrorism in our region will intensify as terrorist organisations are known to infiltrate target countries through sleeper cells which can remain dormant for years without detection. It is therefore, important that the service is availed the means to confront this imminent threat.
Sir, we also face cross cutting challenges in threats emanating from conflicts in neighbouring countries which have given rise to the illicit proliferation of small arms. Such weapons have been used in organised and violent crimes, especially in urban areas. The country has also continued to receive refugees from areas of conflicts in the region and other parts of the continent whose activities pose a serious threat to national security. The service must, therefore, have the capacity to monitor, analyse and negate these threats.
Mr Chairperson, looking at the complex nature of the world today, where internal and external threats to security reinforce each other, there is need for adequate training of officers in modern techniques and provision of appropriate equipment in dealing with these threats. We will be failing in our duty if we do not respond to the request for adequate funding to the service.
Sir, it is therefore, important for us, as leaders to ensure that the Zambia Security Intelligence Service is given the necessary support by the Government and the people of Zambia to enable it fulfill its mandate. We owe it to our people to ensure that National Institutions that are mandated to manage their security are facilitated to function and perform to acceptable levels.
Mr Chairperson, in the same vein, I would like to take this opportunity to make a strong appeal to ourselves, as politicians to continue to put the interests of the country first and resist succumbing to narrow political interests.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Budget Estimates for 2008
The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, may I now draw the attention of this august House to the proposed Budget for the Zambia Security Intelligence Service for this year, 2008. The Estimates for 2008 are K209,069,193,507), while last year’s authorised expenditure was K186,758,623,173).
Sir, this represents a marginal increase over last year’s allocation. This increase has been necessitated by among other things, the restructuring of the service that has ushered in a new establishment. This will require the recruitment of new officers and their training which will be done this year. To reduce on cost, it has been decided to implement this new establishment over a period of five years. The hon. Members of the House may also wish to know that a review of the conditions of services for officers in the Foreign Service to meet trends has also increased the need for more resources.
Mr Chairperson, in addition, the Budget Estimates include infrastructure development such as construction of new office blocks, which were started in the third quarter of last year in the following places: Sesheke, Senanga, Pemba, Kazungula, Chadiza, Chama, Mkushi, Lufwanyama, Chavuma, Chongwe, Isoka and Mporokoso as well as renovations of old office blocks in various parts of the country.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, the project in Kawambwa could not take off due to some administrative hitches but will commence soon. The hon. Members of Parliament from the affected areas should have seen these projects. The Service requests that the hon. Members of this Parliament help it in monitoring these projects. The choice of the areas has been cross cutting and based upon non-partisan lines. It is hoped that the continued construction of offices in the districts will alleviate the current shortage of office accommodation in these districts and improve the working environment for the officers. It is said that once most of the districts have been covered, we will embark on the construction of houses for officers.
Mr Chairperson, I wish to conclude by making a passionate appeal to this august House to consider, favourably, the proposed budget before us. As I do this, let me also assure the august House that the resources proposed in this year’s budget will be spent prudently for the benefit of the security interest for the people of Zambia. It is now my honour to present the 2008 Estimates of Expenditure for the Zambia Security Intelligence Services.
I thank you, Mr Chairperson.
Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!
Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC: Mr Chairperson, first and foremost, I would like to support the Vote for this very important body, which is supposed to be non partisan. I think that this point must be emphasised because once upon a time, we were living in a one party era. In a one party State, the intelligence operations were geared in such a way that they were meant to protect the Chair or mupando.
Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!
Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC: However, in a multiparty democracy, this very important body must realise that they are there to ensure security for all. Therefore, sources of security information can come from all angles. This tendency of security officers only being close to ruling parties is very dangerous because the type of information gathered is normally biased and not helpful for their information.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC: There are also perceptions in this country which were very common in the second republic. This perception emanated from the feeling that our hardworking intelligence unit was involved in election matters. My submission is that this body continues to work hard, but it must realise that the Constitution of this country has given us the right to choose our leaders without any fear or hindrance. Therefore, we will expect our hardworking security unit to behave in a professional manner. They must be non-partisan.
Mr Chairperson, there have been situations where intelligence officers in districts are always in the company of ruling party officials.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC: We come from small institutions and we are able to identify them. Zambia is for all of us and we are interested in the security of this country. I am interested in revealing any activities that are aimed at destabilising this country just as much as an officer working in this body. Therefore, let us develop confidence in each other because we need each other. You need these hon. Members of Parliament and every Zambian out there in order to be a vibrant security organisation. My appeal to the hardworking management of this particular body is to ensure that this security wing is user friendly.
This idea of walking like teams, especially in small towns, must stop because by so doing, you are merely removing the lid off this body. Instead of being useful security officers, everybody shuns you. They will not sit next to you at the pub because they know who you are. Let us be professional. While on this point, I would like to urge the management to ensure that you invest a lot in training. Zambia is ours and we must guard it against all forms of destabilisation. Therefore, we need to train our officers on an on going process.
I am emphasising training because it is common knowledge these days that there are officers who like squealing after taking a few beers. That is not good for the security of our country. If you are a security person, learn to keep your mouth closed. What is happening to some of these ill trained officers leaves mush to be desired. I am talking about this because I am as concerned as the Director General. I am more than 100 per cent patriotic.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC: Therefore, when we talk, it is because we have the desire to ensure that this country is protected and has security officers who are committed to secure it. In a democratic State like ours, perceptions that this organisation …
Interruptions
The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I am being distracted by my colleagues on the right. I was trying to understand why until I realised that, maybe, it is because the hon. Member speaking is looking at the opposite side of the House instead of looking at the Chair. Therefore, address the Chair.
The hon. Member may continue.
Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!
Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC: Mr Chairperson, unfortunately, where I am standing, I am able to see everybody on all sides.
Laughter
The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Do not qualify the ruling of the Chair.
You may continue.
Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC: Mr Chairperson, I thank you. As I was saying, security of the nation in a democratic State is meant to protect the interest of every Zambian. Your term of reference is not to protect the chair. I think that this must be emphasised because there is a misconception. As security officers, they must learn to distinguish criticism from subversive activities. Most of the times, our officers are not able to distinguish criticism from subversive activities and it is for this reason that I am emphasising the fact that training is very important.
Mr Chairperson, we want these people to perform freely and to the best of their abilities. It is for this reason that I am supporting this Vote without any hesitation because it is my hope and feeling that it will be put to good use.
I thank you, Mr Chairperson.
Dr Chishimba (Kasama Central): Mr Chairperson, may the peace of God the Father, God the Son and the Holy Spirit be with the House.
Hon. Members: Aah!
Laughter
Dr Chishimba: Mr Chairperson, last year, I debated and stated that intelligence comes from a Latin word Intelle agere, which simply means information. Information is the critical and urgent need to make very important choices or decisions, which confront us on a daily basis.
Mr Chairperson, without adequately supporting the Zambia Security Intelligence Services, it is impracticable, or rather, practically impossible for the organisation to connect adequate information, which is unbiased, as Hon. C. K. B. Banda submitted. It is not possible. Unless the organisation is adequately supported, the information which is needed to offer advice or provide appropriate information to all of us will not be connected. It is not just about the republican President, but about Zambia as a country. Therefore information connection for security purposes cuts across all sectors.
Mr Chairperson, much as the Zambia Security Intelligence Services is demonised, people associate the organisation with persecutions. It is viewed as an institution which is established to try and support agenda of the Government of the day. Much as that is the perception, I want to state here that this is not the role of the organisation.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Dr Chishimba: The organisation takes into account the interests of every Zambian. Therefore, we must support this Vote. In fact, to me, the allocation is too small.
Why am I saying so, Mr Chairperson? I am saying so because, if you look at, for instance, the allocation for operations which is only about K30 billion. Now, when you try and analyse that figure across a number invariables, for instance, if you take into account the total population in our country, you would find that allocation per day to cover each and every Zambia is about K6. That, to me, is a very big joke. It is about time we realised that security is very important and we have to invest in it.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Dr Chishimba: Mr Chairperson, His Honour the Vice-President has just talked about economic activities. Let alone, I believe in my debate, time allowing, I will try and talk about the need for the organisation to be supported in order to try and identify economic sabotage activities. Unless that information is identified and acted upon, sabotage is very much eminent in each and every country. Intelligence is a not reactive, intelligence is proactive.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Dr Chishimba: It is about getting information and being aware before something happens. Intelligence is not like the police because the police probably move in and arrest afterwards. That is after an action or omission and so forth, but intelligence is proactive.
Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!
Dr Chishimba: Mr Chairperson, in order for it to live up to its mandate, there is need for organisations to be supported fully.
Mr Chairperson, let me also add by saying that it is not in order to demonise the organisation or stigmatise it, in the sense that its creation is very much divine. The children of Israel without the spies, the Jerichos, would not have been pulled down.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Dr Chishimba: Zambia today, Mr Chairperson, has a number of Jerichos from different perspective and stand points. Those Jerichos must be pulled down.
Hon. Members: Yes.
Dr Chishimba: And to pull down the Jerichos, we need information before hand so that the system …
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Dr Chishimba: … and that information is not for free. This is because even that woman Rehab and the harlots after looking after those spies, the King of Jericho started looking for those spies after that information leaked. And that was not for free because in the end, in short she said, what are you going to do for me in return?
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Dr Chishimba: In other words, she was trying to find out because she knew that the God of Israel was supreme and is supreme today.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Dr Chishimba: She knew that the people here know that your God, when he decides, there is nobody who can reverse his decisions.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Dr Chishimba: What are you going to do for me? Those spies said we are going to save you when we come to attack this particular region.
Mr Chairperson, what am I trying to say? What I am trying to say is that at the end of the day, there was some kind of an exchange. She was looked after when she was saved together with those of her household. However, information collecting is not for free. Therefore, it cannot do to subject, for instance, the operations of the organisation to some of what you may call the fight against corruption as I have said.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Dr Chishimba: People may even begin to lose confidence because for the organisation to operate, it needs agents. Hon. Banda has just talked about what happens in the districts. That you find that those District Intelligence Officers or shall I say officers in general are normally found with the ruling party. Now, how do you expect them to go to the Opposition because to go to the Opposition they need to be recruited with that particular Opposition political party and to recruit is not cheap. Now, because of inadequate allocation, we have no option …
Laughter
Dr Chishimba: … but to go with an organisation which they know is ruling.
Laughter
Dr Chishimba: Security or shall I say operations are very expensive. You may go to someone who is a very important source of information. That particular person may ask for a house or a vehicle in exchange. The system which may need that particular information to make very important decisions on the questions, on the Jerichos which we face will have no option, but to just try and offer something to that particular person.
Laughter
Dr Chishimba: Therefore, Mr Chairperson, we ought to be extremely careful when we are dealing with matters that pertain to the system. We cannot afford, as a country …
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
(Debate adjourned)
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HOUSE RESUMED
[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]
(Progress reported)
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The House adjourned at 1955 hours until 0900 hours on Friday, 7th March, 2008.